# D.A POLL



## Dominic (Apr 17, 2020)

DA poll


----------



## Dominic (Apr 17, 2020)

*POLL RESULTS*


----------



## myself (Apr 17, 2020)

DA as an idea is great. DA run by an organization whose leadership has shown to be arrogant, incompetent, and not produce results was doomed to fail.


----------



## espola (Apr 17, 2020)

The basic principle as stated was good (develop players for US National and Olympic teams by organizing the best players in a system that provides the best training).  The first round of execution showed how insincere the clubs were about adhering to the principle (start with oldest "youth" players, and since there is little time left to develop them, recruit the better players from neighboring clubs to try out for the clubs' best teams that had overnight become DA teams).

More to the point would have been to start developing with 10-year-olds, with a selection funnel as time went on leading to fully-funded teams associated with MLS teams at about age 18.


----------



## MWN (Apr 17, 2020)

myself said:


> DA as an idea is great. DA run by an organization whose leadership has shown to be arrogant, incompetent, and not produce results was doomed to fail.


Aside from the bias in your statement, there is a massive hole in your logic.  The DA was only just a LEAGUE.  The people running the DA were the clubs.  US Soccer simply subsidized a league for these DA club teams to play.  The subsidized league paid for referees and had some tournaments/playoffs.  The clubs participating the DA League had some excellent results and identifying kids for the next level of development, but we had two problems:

There was (and remains) no "next level" of professional development in the US on par with our European and Latin American friends for that critical stage of 17-22.
Only a lucky few with dual citizenship could escape the US young adult development (18-22) disaster and sign with real professional academies (Pulisc, Sargent, Reyna, etc.)
To hold US Soccer accountable "for result" when the youth clubs and MLS had 100% controllof development is silly and illogical.  To hold US Soccer accountable for the fact that the MLS and USL are inept at player development is likewise silly.  There isn't a single MLS team that could compete at the Premiere League level or Bundalisga or Liga 1 or just about any other Division 1 league.

This is not and never has been US Soccer's cross to bear, it is the 110% on the MLS and USL.

... well maybe US Soccer is to blame in 1 area, which is its lack of embracing RSTP (training and solidarity fees).  This failure set us back at least a decade or more.  Fortunately, the MLS pulled its head out of its ass and is now demanding RSTP payments for the loss of its youth academy players.


----------



## myself (Apr 17, 2020)

MWN said:


> Aside from the bias in your statement, there is a massive hole in your logic.  The DA was only just a LEAGUE.


Correct. They tried the Bradenton model and moved away from it. DA was the next step in this evolution of trying to develop national team players. US Soccer setup the system and the rules. Why would I blame MLS clubs when US Soccer created and presided over this setup?



MWN said:


> To hold US Soccer accountable "for result" when the youth clubs and MLS had 100% controllof development


Again, who setup the system of allowing individual clubs to work within this loose framework? The heavy handed Brandenton approach failed, and now the loose DA model has failed.

When I refer to US Soccers lack of results I don't just mean failing produce boys youth players, I mean US Soccer in general. Bad (IMO) selections for men's senior head coach, failure of the USGNT at the youth world cups, etc. There's a track record.


----------



## Copa9 (Apr 17, 2020)

Dominic said:


> DA poll


A lot of ECNL responders. Haha


----------



## Copa9 (Apr 17, 2020)

MWN said:


> Aside from the bias in your statement, there is a massive hole in your logic.  The DA was only just a LEAGUE.  The people running the DA were the clubs.  US Soccer simply subsidized a league for these DA club teams to play.  The subsidized league paid for referees and had some tournaments/playoffs.  The clubs participating the DA League had some excellent results and identifying kids for the next level of development, but we had two problems:
> 
> There was (and remains) no "next level" of professional development in the US on par with our European and Latin American friends for that critical stage of 17-22.
> Only a lucky few with dual citizenship could escape the US young adult development (18-22) disaster and sign with real professional academies (Pulisc, Sargent, Reyna, etc.)
> ...


US Soccer IS responsible for screwing a lot of players half way through a season, in the middle of a pandemic, right before finals and without a heads up so clubs could start planning ahead, oh wait they did let their buddies know.  As far as we are concerned, US soccer will never have our support again at the youth level, college level or professional level.  Not a single dollar, not a single TV coverage,  and not at the Olympics or World Cup, nada!


----------



## MacDre (Apr 17, 2020)

MWN said:


> Aside from the bias in your statement, there is a massive hole in your logic.  The DA was only just a LEAGUE.  The people running the DA were the clubs.  US Soccer simply subsidized a league for these DA club teams to play.  The subsidized league paid for referees and had some tournaments/playoffs.  The clubs participating the DA League had some excellent results and identifying kids for the next level of development, but we had two problems:
> 
> There was (and remains) no "next level" of professional development in the US on par with our European and Latin American friends for that critical stage of 17-22.
> Only a lucky few with dual citizenship could escape the US young adult development (18-22) disaster and sign with real professional academies (Pulisc, Sargent, Reyna, etc.)
> ...


Wow.  Very informative but if I’m understanding you correctly, you just help me spot a major issue that I don’t think USSF can fix.  If you are worried about development from 17-22 I think that could be the problem.

In Mexico this Spring will be the last opportunity for most of the 2008 birth year to have an opportunity to make a Fuerzas Basicas academy team for the fall.  So in Mexico the funnel narrows substantially at 12.  Between 16-17 some sign professional contracts but most are let go.  Do you think we should narrow the funnel earlier like Mexico and I think Europe too?


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 17, 2020)

espola said:


> The basic principle as stated was good (develop players for US National and Olympic teams by organizing the best players in a system that provides the best training).  The first round of execution showed how insincere the clubs were about adhering to the principle (start with oldest "youth" players, and since there is little time left to develop them, recruit the better players from neighboring clubs to try out for the clubs' best teams that had overnight become DA teams).
> 
> More to the point would have been to start developing with 10-year-olds, with a selection funnel as time went on leading to fully-funded teams associated with MLS teams at about age 18.


Spot on!!


----------



## MWN (Apr 18, 2020)

myself said:


> Correct. They tried the Bradenton model and moved away from it. DA was the next step in this evolution of trying to develop national team players. US Soccer setup the system and the rules. *Why would I blame MLS clubs when US Soccer created and presided over this setup*?
> 
> *Again, who setup the system of allowing individual clubs to work within this loose framework*? The heavy handed Brandenton approach failed, and now the loose DA model has failed.
> 
> When I refer to US Soccers lack of results I don't just mean failing produce boys youth players, I mean US Soccer in general. Bad (IMO) selections for men's senior head coach, failure of the USGNT at the youth world cups, etc. There's a track record.


Answer: The Clubs.  Back when US Soccer was creating the DA league, they needed the Clubs on board with "a model."  There were negotiations between US Soccer and the MLS and large clubs that would be the founding members.  These negotiations resulted in the model we saw.   Because US Soccer was never in a position to fund the DA training, it had to placate the clubs.  The Clubs would not participate in the DA League if the standards and financial demands were too much.  If the Clubs could not pencil out an ROI then the DA League would never get off the ground.   Don't think for one minute that the DA League was created without significant input from the founding clubs and representatives.

What is very interesting (historically speaking) is that US Soccer did an end run with the DA League around existing Youth Affiliates (US Club and US Youth who were already runing high level leagues).  This has always been a sore point.

You can't look at the DA League through today's lens, rather, you need to look through the lens of 15 years ago and the state of youth soccer.  Practically speaking, the DA League would never get off the ground unless there were sufficient number of regional teams to allow clubs to play each other without traveling across country.  This required compromises demanded by the clubs.


----------



## jpeter (Apr 18, 2020)

12:years and millions on top of millions was spent. 

Some clubs feel like there were burned big time and don't want to participate in anything where MLS or the former DA execs are running the same game under a different name.

Others see it different but either way now there is more division & and strife. instead of collaborating once again we are diluting,  the battle between USYS and USClub rages on with no end in site. 

My opinion they all should have waited, worked together and made unifed announcements when youth soccer is actually closer to a return.


----------



## TOSDCI (Apr 18, 2020)

I believe shutting down the DA was a very good thing, but the way they did it was poorly planned and left a bad taste for a lot of clubs.  Bring back the  FL model that brought us Landon Donovan and Clint Dempsey and add a women's program.  US soccer scouts actually go out and scour the country for the best players not just go for the low hanging fruit with the same players in the US YNT camps every time.


----------



## blam (Apr 18, 2020)

Club soccer is also scary. I have talked to coaches who are not up to date on the latest tactical of soccer. I had coaches told me that if a player is right footed they play on the right wing. Very 80s and 90s style. Trainings can also be disorganized. Appears to not have much long term structure. 

The DA curriculum is very good. However the constancy of playing from the back, and not having the keeper long kicks the ball. Requiring all teams to play possession based soccer can result in inexperience when dealing with teams that play differently.

Not playing high school is not a big deal.

Having subs who play just 10 minutes per game is a big deal. Players getting so few minutes should be made part time do they can get playing time at another flight 1 team or play high school.

Travel is too far.


----------



## oh canada (Apr 18, 2020)

They really had no choice at this point.  I didn't realize the dire straits that USSF is in financially and Covid was the death knell.  And i'm not even talking about the lawsuit, as I think much of that will be covered by insurance when they settle.  

They need to focus all resources now into qualifying for 2022 WC to generate $$.  If the men don't qualify again, USSF may be forced to move into a south-side Chicago garage and hire temp workers as coaches.


----------



## watfly (Apr 18, 2020)

oh canada said:


> And i'm not even talking about the lawsuit, as I think much of that will be covered by insurance when they settle.


Doubtful.  Unless US Soccer had a custom policy their regular liability policy wouldn't cover them and EPLI insurance typically doesn't cover wage claims.  Furthermore, the articles about hiring the new law firm, Latham and Watkins, (assuming they're accurate) specifically said the firm was retained by US Soccer.   If US Soccer was insured, the insurer would have hired the defense counsel and not the policy holder (except in very rare circumstances).  The insured can recommend counsel but the carrier typically chooses their own counsel.

The claim by US Soccer that Covid was the cause of DA's termination is a convenient excuse.  The reality is the complete bungling of the lawsuit by US Soccer and its prior law firm, along with its general mismanagement and the failure of the DA are the real reasons.  The sexist brief filed by the law firm will cost US Soccer unknown millions.  The brief will go down in the legal representation Hall of Shame.









						When You Write A Brief So Bad It Gets The Client Fired - Above the Law
					

That takes some real skill.




					abovethelaw.com
				









						“Latham-Led US Soccer May Have to Pay Up in USWNT Suit,” Law360 | Cohen Milstein
					

The U.S. Soccer Federation, with its new legal team at Latham & Watkins LLP and a new president, appears ready to settle a pay discrimination lawsuit by players on the U.S.




					www.cohenmilstein.com


----------



## RecLegend (Apr 18, 2020)

The idea of DA is still crazy for me to comprehend...glad its gone.   Kids only focusing on one sport and having to practice 4x per week and miss out on high school sports is detrimental to their high school experience.  Imagine not playing your best sport when you were in high school?  

All for the reason to:  "develop players for US National and Olympic teams by organizing the best players in a system that provides the best training"....So this benefits .01% of players in the long run who likely don't need to be coddled in this form anyway.  Never made sense to me.


----------



## blam (Apr 18, 2020)

RecLegend said:


> Imagine not playing your best sport when you were in high school?


I don't understand why this would be a problem except because of the way things turned out. Ideally, DA could have a solid 12-14 FT players in a team and the rest PT. PT players are allowed to play high school and also other leagues to supplement their game times. The FT players already got their game times on weekends so no big deal not playing high school. 

However, I can see how this becomes an issue when the coaches do not allow a player to be PT. Maybe clubs need the higher income from FT. I see some teams with as many as 20+ players all FT. Not sure how they get solid game times if they are benched.


----------



## blam (Apr 18, 2020)

The best part about DA was the coaching or teaching. However, not sure if my experience is a club specific thing or DA mandated. Maybe someone can tell me.

I like the fact that the coach teaches a well planned out curriculum. Every week players are taught a specific part of the game and they understood they are following a curriculum. 

Also like that the coach arrives 30 minutes earlier to setup the field. And he requires training to start on time (not including warm up) so players have to arrive early and warm up themselves. 

Trainings were also hard. 

It almost feels like you are in a football school not just playing travel soccer.  

I hope the new league could replicate these parts of it.


----------



## CoachMike (Apr 18, 2020)

With the World Cup being held in N.America 6 years from now, you'd like to think there is a master plan coming to get that mens US WC crop developed and ready.. but whats happening appears to be happening off the cuff.


----------



## messy (Apr 19, 2020)

MWN said:


> Aside from the bias in your statement, there is a massive hole in your logic.  The DA was only just a LEAGUE.  The people running the DA were the clubs.  US Soccer simply subsidized a league for these DA club teams to play.  The subsidized league paid for referees and had some tournaments/playoffs.  The clubs participating the DA League had some excellent results and identifying kids for the next level of development, but we had two problems:
> 
> There was (and remains) no "next level" of professional development in the US on par with our European and Latin American friends for that critical stage of 17-22.
> Only a lucky few with dual citizenship could escape the US young adult development (18-22) disaster and sign with real professional academies (Pulisc, Sargent, Reyna, etc.)
> ...


Point taken about Europe and Sargent went at 17 but he doesn't have dual citizenship.


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

messy said:


> Point taken about Europe and Sargent went at 17 but he doesn't have dual citizenship.


You don’t need dual citizenship if you stay in a border region.  Maybe Club Tijuana or Rayados of Monterrey; the cool part about Rayados is that your kid could attend Tech de Monterrey for undergrad.  USSF new CEO Wilson attended Tech and it’s a great school!


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

messy said:


> Point taken about Europe and Sargent went at 17 but he doesn't have dual citizenship.


Oh yeah, one more thing.  If the kid plays for Club Tijuana they also have the option to attend UCSD, USD, or SDSU.  So both Mexican teams are great options in terms of access to a professional environment AND elite universities.


----------



## espola (Apr 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Oh yeah, one more thing.  If the kid plays for Club Tijuana they also have the option to attend UCSD, USD, or SDSU.  So both Mexican teams are great options in terms of access to a professional environment AND elite universities.


How does that work?  Is there a special program for Club Tijuana players?


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

espola said:


> How does that work?  Is there a special program for Club Tijuana players?


There’s an academy program called Fuerzas Basicas.  This upcoming fall the 2008 birth year enters the program.  It’s a cut throat competitive process to make it to the first team.  Most fail.  I believe it was Joe Corona that dropped out of SDSU because of lack of funds and entered Club Tijuana’s academy late but made their first team.  Liga Mx also pays some men very well and the level of play is currently higher than MLS.
If someone knows of a “special” kid that they think is being overlooked...send me a message.


----------



## messy (Apr 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> You don’t need dual citizenship if you stay in a border region.  Maybe Club Tijuana or Rayados of Monterrey; the cool part about Rayados is that your kid could attend Tech de Monterrey for undergrad.  USSF new CEO Wilson attended Tech and it’s a great school!


What? An American minor who lives in SD can compete for a LigaMX academy? I don't think so...


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

messy said:


> What? An American minor who lives in SD can compete for a LigaMX academy? I don't think so...


You want to bet?  How much?


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> You want to bet?  How much?


Seriously though many of the kids in TJ are also US citizens.  FIFA rules allow kids that live in a border region to play on the “other side” for lack of better words.  I’m aware of several currently but most are of Mexican descent.  My kid is African-American.  The owners of Club Tijuana are of German descent.  If you kid can ball, they’ll be seriously considered.


----------



## blam (Apr 19, 2020)

messy said:


> What? An American minor who lives in SD can compete for a LigaMX academy? I don't think so.


Well...no experience with liga mex academy but know first hand a number of San duego kids who represent Baja at state level And u15 Mexico youth teams. Also know one kid who is Mexican nationality who played da in San Diego. So I would think that is possible just from reciprocity.

I believe mex number 9 on the female side national team who played at the Olympic trials is an American. A number of girls play in liga mex feminil at first teams today.


----------



## Copa9 (Apr 19, 2020)

blam said:


> The best part about DA was the coaching or teaching. However, not sure if my experience is a club specific thing or DA mandated. Maybe someone can tell me.
> 
> I like the fact that the coach teaches a well planned out curriculum. Every week players are taught a specific part of the game and they understood they are following a curriculum.
> 
> ...


Sure beats all those coaches who stand around talking on their cell phones or talking to other coaches at the field when they are supposed to be coaching.


----------



## MWN (Apr 19, 2020)

CoachMike said:


> With the World Cup being held in N.America 6 years from now, you'd like to think there is a master plan coming to get that mens US WC crop developed and ready.. but whats happening appears to be happening off the cuff.


What is happening is anything but off the cuff and the Covid shutdown simply accelerated the plan.  

In the last few months there has been 1 major competitive challenge to the DA, which was the USL announced and was set to begin the USL-A youth system.

As you may or may not know, back in 2015/16, US Soccer hired a company out of Belgium, called DoublePASS which is a football auditing firm that helped the Germany and Belgium and many clubs and leagues previously.  DoublePASS visited the MLS and other DA programs.  The basic conclusions were that the USA system was seriously broken and hamstrung by a system that dissuaded investment in players.   The DoublePASS auditors preliminary assessments were not good. 

In 2019, the MLS changed course on Solidarity and Training Fees and (despite US Soccer's insistence to remain neutral) embraced the FIFA player investment compensation system the rest of the world embraced.  What the MLS began doing behind the scenes was preparing for an eventually separation from the DA League, the first step was  to divide the DA league into DA 1 (MLS teams and a few others) and DA 2 for the 2021 season ... then Covid hapens.  The MLS accelerates the plan threatening to pull all MLS teams earlier than anticipated.  US Soccer now has a perfect excuse and everybody saves face.

Ultimately, this has been the plan and in line with the preliminary recommendations of the DoublePASS auditors to bring US Soccer professional development in line with the rest of the world.  It starts with the MLS teams putting on their big boy pants and taking ownership of its youth academies, investing in its youth academies and treating the boys in those academies as assets.

Off the cuff?  No.  This has been the plan, it just is happening sooner than originally intended thanks to Covid, but that really is a good thing.

The benefit of moving toward highly competitive youth academies that treat the athletes as investments also means that we will also be looking to improve the quality in the 2nd Division.  If the USL can rise to the challenge, if not, the MLS will be forced to make a move there as well.  For the time being, however, the trend is all positive.  US Soccer is no longer pressuring players to play in the MLS, which is currently substandard, and encouraging our talent to move to European leagues as soon as possible.


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

blam said:


> Well...no experience with liga mex academy but know first hand a number of San duego kids who represent Baja at state level And u15 Mexico youth teams. Also know one kid who is Mexican nationality who played da in San Diego. So I would think that is possible just from reciprocity.
> 
> I believe mex number 9 on the female side national team who played at the Olympic trials is an American. A number of girls play in liga mex feminil at first teams today.


Correct.  She’s also the striker for Xolo’s. 









						Renae Cuéllar - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Ellejustus (Apr 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Seriously though many of the kids in TJ are also US citizens.  FIFA rules allow kids that live in a border region to play on the “other side” for lack of better words.  I’m aware of several currently but most are of Mexican descent.  My kid is African-American.  The owners of Club Tijuana are of German descent.  If you kid can ball, they’ll be seriously considered.


Is it ok if the goat's great grandma from Mexico and Grandpa is Guatemalan?  Or it doesn;t matter as long as you can ball?


----------



## lafalafa (Apr 19, 2020)

MWN said:


> What is happening is anything but off the cuff and the Covid shutdown simply accelerated the plan.
> 
> In the last few months there has been 1 major competitive challenge to the DA, which was the USL announced and was set to begin the USL-A youth system.
> 
> ...


I dunno about some of what your saying USL academy was announced last year and they have all ready been playing and came out many months ago about he fall 2021 season.

Ussda already announced new clubs including mls ones that they accepted for the 20-21 season in Feb/march.

ECNL and other usclub leagues where already competitors to da.

Solidarity & training compensation will be nice but no clubs have recovered any fees, they can embrace all the want but until the $$ start coming in, seeing is believing.

There makes up this new league as they go which is fine but to say all this was pre-planned is a very big stretch. 

MLS can't even make their payroll now, 300million+ liability.  Without the games playings ticket sales, etc there in a world of financial hurt.


----------



## watfly (Apr 19, 2020)

MWN said:


> What is happening is anything but off the cuff and the Covid shutdown simply accelerated the plan.
> 
> In the last few months there has been 1 major competitive challenge to the DA, which was the USL announced and was set to begin the USL-A youth system.
> 
> ...


MWN, do you have any links to the findings of Double Pass?  I once stumbled across some individual club reports that I think were prepared by Double Pass, but I've never seen any overall findings or report regarding US Soccer's development program(s).

My son's club was assessed by Double Pass only a couple months ago.


----------



## MacDre (Apr 19, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Is it ok if the goat's great grandma from Mexico and Grandpa is Guatemalan?  Or it doesn;t matter as long as you can ball?


For the boys it doesn’t matter currently but TaTa the MNT coach is currently advocating that the federation limit foreigners to give young Mexicans better opportunities to develop.
For girls, there’s currently a ban on all foreign players.  I thought my kid was going to be the first foreigner allowed but I believe the process to grant her Mexican citizenship has started.
In your situation, I think the worst case scenario would take 2-3 years for citizenship because of close familial ties.  The league will be opened to foreigners soon.  Either way, your kid has nothing to lose...she should check it out.


----------



## messy (Apr 19, 2020)

blam said:


> Well...no experience with liga mex academy but know first hand a number of San duego kids who represent Baja at state level And u15 Mexico youth teams. Also know one kid who is Mexican nationality who played da in San Diego. So I would think that is possible just from reciprocity.
> 
> I believe mex number 9 on the female side national team who played at the Olympic trials is an American. A number of girls play in liga mex feminil at first teams today.


Thanks for the info and yes, FIFA Article 19, subsection 2.c. provides for such a possibility for a kid near the border.


----------



## jpeter (Apr 19, 2020)

watfly said:


> MWN, do you have any links to the findings of Double Pass?  I once stumbled across some individual club reports that I think were prepared by Double Pass, but I've never seen any overall findings or report regarding US Soccer's development program(s).
> 
> My son's club was assessed by Double Pass only a couple months ago.


Same seen some really old or drafts one but the only finals ones I known of are tightly held.  Nobody I know seems willing to share but parts of the reports so that tells me something,.

The other thing is despite these reports and the millions spendt on them not sure anybody can really show the return on investment for them.

why would reports for the last 6 years make and difference for a new League?  What's going to be different?  Did DA change all that much as a result of these reports? 

Nice that people cheerleader reports and how there will doing things better in the future  but not many live up to that cheerleading, hope they do but when you already struck out once some don't have the same optimism.


----------



## Cibo (Apr 19, 2020)

I have a question, will the newly added Boys ECNL Clubs that were in the DA also field MLS Academy League teams? WIth the article on the MLS site today having Lipka saying “It's not time to exclude, it’s time to include”. I could see ECNL not allowing it though.


----------



## watfly (Apr 19, 2020)

jpeter said:


> Same seen some really old or drafts one but the only finals ones I known of are tightly held.  Nobody I know seems willing to share but parts of the reports so that tells me something,.
> 
> The other thing is despite these reports and the millions spendt on them not sure anybody can really show the return on investment for them.
> 
> ...


Yeah, kinda of my thoughts as well.  Double Pass was supposed to revolutionize US soccer development.  Doesn't seem to be any material tangible benefits that resulted from years of analyses and millions spent on Double Pass.  My sons's current DA team I know worked with Double Pass to develop a "periodization" training program.  It was very detailed and looked impressive.  His training was certainly better than his former DA club which for the most part relied primarily just on some form of a rondo for training.  I didn't hear or see any evidence that his former club worked with Double Pass.  My suspicion is that for most clubs it was a lot easier to recruit better players than spend the long-term effort it required to follow a periodization model, nor do I think parents have the patience for such a model.


----------



## jpeter (Apr 19, 2020)

Cibo said:


> I have a question, will the newly added Boys ECNL Clubs that were in the DA also field MLS Academy League teams? WIth the article on the MLS site today having Lipka saying “It's not time to exclude, it’s time to include”. I could see ECNL not allowing it though.


Yes theoretically and a few may,  I don't think it's a matter of ECNL wouldn't allow it much as those clubs aren't interested and picked a side.   

Besides mistrust now some of clubs really want to win championships and few of them of them did while in DA.


----------

