# NWSL Scandal - Impact on youth soccer?



## timbuck (Nov 23, 2021)

Twitter has been on fire since yesterday afternoon regarding this story.
A 5th NWSL coach has resigned/been fired due to harrassment / misconduct.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463178774082588677
This guy is a good twitter follow and has posted quite a few relevant details:  https://twitter.com/THEChrisKessell

The coach that today's story is about is named Rory Dames. Also runs Chicago Eclipse ECNL club.

Christian Lavers runs all of ECNL.  He was also the Assistant Coach to Rory Dames.  Christian is also Executive Vice President of C2SA ( a for profit organization that provides consulting services to US Club Soccer).


			https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-lavers-3b02b55/
		


Here's another recent story of an NWSL coach:  https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/oct/28/abuse-allegations-vancouver-whitecaps-womens-team-hubert-busby-jr-soccer

This one hits a little closer to home because a few years ago, OC Strikers brought this guy down to run the Striker ECNL Program.  I believe AR is the one who hired him.
Not sure how old this picture is and it certainly doesn't mean people in a picture with someone are doing anything wrong.


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## Coach_JimmyZ (Nov 23, 2021)

Coach of NWSL's Red Stars resigns days after championship loss amid report of emotional abuse


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## whatithink (Nov 23, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Twitter has been on fire since yesterday afternoon regarding this story.
> A 5th NWSL coach has resigned/been fired due to harrassment / misconduct.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. There are some disturbing things from that twitter feed, both from an apparent abuse perspective (e.g. 2002 Eclipse team) and from a financial perspective (CSM being paid $21M over 6 years by US Club soccer and the relationship between US Club soccer CEO and CSM).

A salient point, imv, on the first twitter link to the interview was that with women reporters now being dedicated (and having investigative reporting experience) seems to be a catalyst to some extend to more and more crap starting to come out. I know media gets dinged a lot these days, but they do have a crucial role in helping to out this type of crap, because the powers that be are so embedded and intertwined with it, that you certainly can't trust them to police themselves - indeed US Soccer seem to have their own investigation and concluded with a "nothing to see here", as best I can tell.


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## timbuck (Nov 24, 2021)

We all know of a coach or 2 who we've heard from the sidelines that might have said some "borderline" stuff to young players. 
Wonder if we'll see any more coaches just become "trainers" and not actually coach teams in the future?


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## crush (Nov 24, 2021)

All I can say as a dad is that these dudes had a lot power to swing their bat in youth soccer.  It's getting cleaned up one Doc at a time.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 25, 2021)

Yes, they have a tremendous amount of power to ruin peoples lives and there are a ton still out there.


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## timbuck (Nov 29, 2021)

The guy who wrote "Front Row Seat" regarding the visa scam and corruption at GPS Soccer continues to investigate and dig up some "Wow" stuff.
Front Row Seat Book on Amazon

This one hits close to home as the club formerly known as United FC, GPS and Blues are mentioned here. (From everything I know about this story- Blues has not been involved at all.  But looks like GPS was trying)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465430288062992388
This is an example of how youth soccer organizations are trying to manipulate / exploit nonprofit entities.  Governing bodies and nonprofit club administrators need to be aware / investigate


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## lafalafa (Nov 29, 2021)

timbuck said:


> The guy who wrote "Front Row Seat" regarding the visa scam and corruption at GPS Soccer continues to investigate and dig up some "Wow" stuff.
> Front Row Seat Book on Amazon
> 
> This one hits close to home as the club formerly known as United FC, GPS and Blues are mentioned here. (From everything I know about this story- Blues has not been involved at all.  But looks like GPS was trying)
> ...


Typical stuff that's been going for sometime regarding the nonprofit ruse,  most turn a blind eye to the whole deal.

Don't ask don't tell, there are financial, legal, and other silent investors who are good at the shell games,  holding assets, funds, leasing back, services, and getting management fees or profits reinvested.


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## foreveryoung (Nov 30, 2021)

timbuck said:


> The guy who wrote "Front Row Seat" regarding the visa scam and corruption at GPS Soccer continues to investigate and dig up some "Wow" stuff.
> Front Row Seat Book on Amazon
> 
> This one hits close to home as the club formerly known as United FC, GPS and Blues are mentioned here. (From everything I know about this story- Blues has not been involved at all.  But looks like GPS was trying)
> ...


Interestingly this guy was recently on a podcast I listen to.  He sums up the broken pay to play youth sports system perfectly and offers very interesting ideas on how to change it.  Really worth listening to.  Just more evidence this current system has peaked and changes are coming.









						'Front Row Seat: A story of greed and corruption in a youth sports company' - a conversation with Stephen Griffin
					

Listen to this episode from The Talent Equation Podcast on Spotify. Stephen Griffin is a former certified accountant who became an angel investor and fund manager into community sports organisations and companies. His journey took him into some of the shady underbelly of sports organisations...




					open.spotify.com


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## crush (Nov 30, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> Interestingly this guy was recently on a podcast I listen to.  He sums up the broken pay to play youth sports system perfectly and offers very interesting ideas on how to change it.  Really worth listening to.  Just more evidence this current system has peaked and changes are coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## foreveryoung (Nov 30, 2021)

This made the front page of The Washington Post today (article is behind a pay wall - below is the local news story).  

First complaints filed in 2018. 








						Whitman crew team suspends fall program following coach’s sexual abuse arrest
					

The Whitman crew team has suspended its fall operations following the arrest of one of its coaches, Kirkland Shipley, on allegations that he sexually abused former athletes whom he also taught at Walt Whitman High School. Shipley was charged with first- and second-degree child sexual abuse of a...




					bethesdamagazine.com
				




Stephen Griffin has a blog as well


			https://stephengriffinauthor.com/f/protect-the-athletes


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## Carlsbad7 (Nov 30, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> Interestingly this guy was recently on a podcast I listen to.  He sums up the broken pay to play youth sports system perfectly and offers very interesting ideas on how to change it.  Really worth listening to.  Just more evidence this current system has peaked and changes are coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I listened to this last night + it's so spot on.

I'm asking for both of his books for Christmas.

There's so many things I've witnessed in youth soccer that are/were ethically wrong + wouldn't be allowed in any other business.  Amazing that it's all occurring around our kids.


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## timbuck (Nov 30, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I listened to this last night + it's so spot on.
> 
> I'm asking for both of his books for Christmas.
> 
> There's so many things I've witnessed in youth soccer that are/were ethically wrong + wouldn't be allowed in any other business.  Amazing that it's all occurring around our kids.


I think a lot of us say "If my kids didn't love/like this sport, we'd have pulled out of it a long time ago due to all of the bullshit."


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## outside! (Dec 1, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I listened to this last night + it's so spot on.
> 
> I'm asking for both of his books for Christmas.
> 
> There's so many things I've witnessed in youth soccer that are/were ethically wrong + wouldn't be allowed in any other business.  Amazing that it's all occurring around our kids.


I listened to it as well and agree that all sports parents should give it a listen. I am a bit puzzled by one thing however. When GPS was trying to expand here in San Diego their local were posting some recruitment info here on the forum. I asked some questions on the forum and via email. I also did some research on them at the time. Even to me they seemed a bit suspect. Their website had almost no information and their email responses were vague. My gut feel was that they were more vaporware than hardware. I find it surprising that Mr. Griffen decided to invest money in them given that he is a professional accountant/investor.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 1, 2021)

outside! said:


> I listened to it as well and agree that all sports parents should give it a listen. I am a bit puzzled by one thing however. When GPS was trying to expand here in San Diego their local were posting some recruitment info here on the forum. I asked some questions on the forum and via email. I also did some research on them at the time. Even to me they seemed a bit suspect. Their website had almost no information and their email responses were vague. My gut feel was that they were more vaporware than hardware. I find it surprising that Mr. Griffen decided to invest money in them given that he is a professional accountant/investor.


Agree with your assessment + saw the CPS flyers a couple of years ago.

Haven't read the books yet but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of cya going on. Griffen was likely scammed by the CPS management into taking over the club + this is his way to try and recreate history. Honestly who invests in a club that isn't specialized in a specific sport? 

What I find interesting is that I can think of several local clubs that much of the ethical challenges he mentioned in the podcast could apply to.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 1, 2021)

Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


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## crush (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


Wow, this is one of the greatest takes ever on the forum. I was literally told by a few wise guy Docs with their hands in the socal soccer cookie jar, from completely different countries, that if my dd didnt play in their three letter league that not only would she be cut out of any US YNT Camps but she will be black listed because HSS is horrible and just gets in the way of greatness and development.


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## outside! (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


High school soccer could have been great by following the model of HS football to produce players that went on to be recruited by colleges. Unfortunately the entrenched HS football/basketball/baseball coaches and administration (mafia?) back in the 70's through the present have always discriminated against soccer (and still do in many schools). This forced serious players to form private leagues and left a huge opening for our current pay to play model to develop. We are now seeing the exact same thing happen with college soccer. College football and basketball are a legitimate path to the pros. For men, college soccer has never been and for women it will not be soon. The funny thing is that the private league soccer pay to play model is now being taken up by football and basketball and soon those HS sports will also not matter when it comes to recruiting for college. Some time after that, college football will start to matter less and less for recruiting future pros. Way to go Coach McDowell. In the end, soccer will still be the most popular sport.


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## timbuck (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


I'd rather they mandate more in-state students get admitted (regardless of athletics)


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 1, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I'd rather they mandate more in-state students get admitted (regardless of athletics)


That’s a sore and personal  issue for me.  Son had 4.3 gpa and 1,320 SAT, along with captain of his cross country team.   He got zero UC acceptances this year!!   My motto with my 12 year old is just focus on getting better than C’s and let’s get into a community college or csu.


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## espola (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> That’s a sore and personal  issue for me.  Son had 4.3 gpa and 1,320 SAT, along with captain of his cross country team.   He got zero UC acceptances this year!!   My motto with my 12 year old is just focus on getting better than C’s and let’s get into a community college or csu.


Everybody gets into UC Merced.


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## younothat (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> That’s a sore and personal  issue for me.  Son had 4.3 gpa and 1,320 SAT, along with captain of his cross country team.   He got zero UC acceptances this year!!   My motto with my 12 year old is just focus on getting better than C’s and let’s get into a community college or csu.


dang is that with impacted major's or what UC's? UCLA and USC?

3.7's for ours in 2019-20 and was accepted to several UC's including Santa Barbara and Irvine but his major was not impacted, writes very good essays and had a solid mix of civic and other things he could highlight.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 1, 2021)

younothat said:


> dang is that with impacted major's or what UC's? UCLA and USC?
> 
> 3.7's for ours in 2019-20 and was accepted to several UC's including Santa Barbara and Irvine but his major was not impacted, writes very good essays and had a solid mix of civic and other things he could highlight.


UC Irvine, ucla, Uc San Diego, Uc Berkeley, and Santa Bárbara.     He screwed up on his essays.   Big lesson learned for my little one.   He didn’t take the time to write some solid essays.
  He’s at csuf now getting all A’s, joined a frat, playing intramurals soccer,  and part time job on a golf course.  I’m happy with just paying $10k a year.  Life is good!


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## dad4 (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


Take a look at football.  They seem to run on that system.

I'm not sure it works the way you'd like.  High talent kids at weak schools have a rough time getting noticed.  

It would be even worse if you tried the same system on a college soccer scouting budget.  With fewer scouts, they'd look at even fewer teams.


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## GT45 (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Regarding the pay to play comments above, I have a thought that wanted to get some opinions from smarter folks than me.   The University of CA and CSU systems are funded by our tax dollars.  Why can't we mandate them to recruit players by scouting high school CIF games?    We are funding these universities to then go and just look at private programs (ECNL, GAL, MLS next)?      I would love to see a state proposition that requires at least 70% or more of the college athletic scholarships to apply towards high school athletes (non ECNL).    Private universities can do whatever they want to do.   I understand that there will still be some loophole but at least it gives all athletes a chance at getting a scholarship/ .


High school players good enough to get recruited by UC's and CSU's are playing in the ECNL, GAL, MLS Next. Are you just saying that the UC/CSU coaches should be required to sit in the stands at high school games?


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## crush (Dec 1, 2021)

GT45 said:


> High school players good enough to get recruited by UC's and CSU's are playing in the ECNL, GAL, MLS Next. Are you just saying that the UC/CSU coaches should be required to sit in the stands at high school games?


I think it would be cool if they did come but that's just me dreaming.  For example, if you're poor and can;t afford the pay to play leagues, how does a public school kid get recruited?  I think soccer fan 4 life brings up valid points.  Girls Soccer is the only sport in high school that gets attacked and no Collège coaches come.  Do college coaches watch girls play high school hoops or Volleyball or water polo?  I can say based on my eyes that the coaches would get a better feel of how hard that player is willing to go for the school name on their shirt.  it's truly too bad and I wish they went to both.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 1, 2021)

GT45 said:


> High school players good enough to get recruited by UC's and CSU's are playing in the ECNL, GAL, MLS Next. Are you just saying that the UC/CSU coaches should be required to sit in the stands at high school games?


Yes but only to watch CIF games.  ECNL/GAL cost too much for  lower income families.  An inner city high school kid playing football can get great college scholarships while just playing high school football.    Why not apply this to soccer?  The amount of investment for a parent to do ECNL is ridiculous.  You add travel fees and you are talking about $10k a year x 6 years?   $60k to maybe get a scholarship?


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## timbuck (Dec 1, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Yes but only to watch CIF games.  ECNL/GAL cost too much for  lower income families.  An inner city high school kid playing football can get great college scholarships while just playing high school football.    Why not apply this to soccer?  The amount of investment for a parent to do ECNL is ridiculous.  You add travel fees and you are talking about $10k a year x 6 years?   $60k to maybe get a scholarship?


While you certainly need skills to play American football-  A kid with blazing speed or a dude that is 6'5" and 300 lbs is gonna get looks from colleges for a scholarship.
Soccer is much more of a skill sport.  The fast kids will make a HS soccer team.  But a fast kid will need considerable skill to stand out on a high level club team.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 2, 2021)

timbuck said:


> While you certainly need skills to play American football-  A kid with blazing speed or a dude that is 6'5" and 300 lbs is gonna get looks from colleges for a scholarship.
> Soccer is much more of a skill sport.  The fast kids will make a HS soccer team.  But a fast kid will need considerable skill to stand out on a high level club team.


I’m all in favor of club soccer for development.  I just think that many talented kids are missing out because they can’t afford to do ECNL.    Our best player in my dd’s 09 team is also one of the fastest strikers in the region.   All ECNL teams want her and she is constantly getting recruited.    The problem is that her dad works long hours and they can’t drive her to the closest ECNL practice field.   There are many players that can compete against the best but will not have a chance if the scouts don’t check out high school games.


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## foreveryoung (Dec 2, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I’m all in favor of club soccer for development.  I just think that many talented kids are missing out because they can’t afford to do ECNL.    Our best player in my dd’s 09 team is also one of the fastest strikers in the region.   All ECNL teams want her and she is constantly getting recruited.    The problem is that her dad works long hours and they can’t drive her to the closest ECNL practice field.   There are many players that can compete against the best but will not have a chance if the scouts don’t check out high school games.


This is exactly right.  Soccer is an "elitist" sport in the US mostly played by middle but mostly upper middle class kids likely headed to college.  High School Sports are much more inclusive from affordability and logistics.  If colleges recruit other sports from HS (football, baseball, etc.) I'm sure they can figure out how to do it from soccer especially if all the club players played HSS.  I have yet to talk to a teenager playing club that wouldn't like to also play soccer for their high school but either their league or parents won't let them.


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## crush (Dec 2, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> This is exactly right.  Soccer is an "elitist" sport in the US mostly played by middle but mostly upper middle class kids likely headed to college.  High School Sports are much more inclusive from affordability and logistics.  If colleges recruit other sports from HS (football, baseball, etc.) I'm sure they can figure out how to do it from soccer especially if all the club players played HSS.  I have yet to talk to a teenager playing club that wouldn't like to also play soccer for their high school but either their league or parents won't let them.


100%.  Please, anyone out there that knows about HS Sports.  I have a question. Name me one sport that has a group of parents and Docs and coaches telling the student that their sport cannot be played at their school and only played in a league 24/7?  AAU?  My dd went through this agony of a decision in 8th grade when the new pay to play development league took over socal.  I know many top coaches ((usually not American that make extra dough doing privates and are 100% against hss)). It was fulltime soccer for our dd plus travel all over the country and NO PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL SOCCER ALLOWED or quit the league.   She quit and joined the old top league that is now the top league in ECNL.


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## dad4 (Dec 2, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I’m all in favor of club soccer for development.  I just think that many talented kids are missing out because they can’t afford to do ECNL.    Our best player in my dd’s 09 team is also one of the fastest strikers in the region.   All ECNL teams want her and she is constantly getting recruited.    The problem is that her dad works long hours and they can’t drive her to the closest ECNL practice field.   There are many players that can compete against the best but will not have a chance if the scouts don’t check out high school games.


Agree with the problem.   Disagree that HS can be a solution.

You have over 1300 high schools in CA.   Fewer than 2000 high school girls play ECNL.  Suppose another 2000 are high skill but overlooked.  That gives you 3 high skill girls at each school.   That’s not even enough for a good 2 v 2 at practice.  

We need a different solution to the high cost and long commutes of ECNL.  HS can’t solve it.


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## Brav520 (Dec 2, 2021)

There isn’t close to enough staff at colleges to go and recruit at high school games 

football is completely different , they have massive staffs and ridiculous amount of $$$$. At these elite schools they are using private jets on Friday to get to some of these games

basketball, and correct me if I’m wrong but I think the majority of the recruiting is done at AAU level,

people think club soccer is corrupt , AAU b-ball is a different world , especially when you have the shoe companies involved


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## foreveryoung (Dec 2, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Agree with the problem.   Disagree that HS can be a solution.
> 
> You have over 1300 high schools in CA.   Fewer than 2000 high school girls play ECNL.  Suppose another 2000 are high skill but overlooked.  That gives you 3 high skill girls at each school.   That’s not even enough for a good 2 v 2 at practice.
> 
> We need a different solution to the high cost and long commutes of ECNL.  HS can’t solve it.


Agree we do need a better solution to ECNL/MLS NEXT, but genuine question, why does high school work for other sports but it won't work for soccer?


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## dad4 (Dec 2, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> Agree we do need a better solution to ECNL/MLS NEXT, but genuine question, why does high school work for other sports but it won't work for soccer?


Who said high school works for elite players in other sports?

Tennis, golf, gymnastics, basketball, and baseball all have their own versions of independent top level competition.  

The only ones I can think of with a pure HS option are football, basketball, cross country, and track.  The first two are hugely popular, and the last two are incredibly cheap individual sports.  

None of the four is a model for girls soccer.


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## watfly (Dec 2, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> That’s a sore and personal  issue for me.  Son had 4.3 gpa and 1,320 SAT, along with captain of his cross country team.   He got zero UC acceptances this year!!   My motto with my 12 year old is just focus on getting better than C’s and let’s get into a community college or csu.


Curious to see what happens with my daughter, 4.6 gpa 4.0 unweighted slightly worse SAT than your son, but didn't submit scores since test blind.  Decent essays, but no unique story, and OK philanthropics.  We're assuming she wont get into UCSB, UCLA or Berkeley.  

UNC acceptance rate for in-state is 47% and 13% out of state, UT-Austin is 42% in-state and 15% out of state. U of Michigan 47.5% vs 21.9%.

Whereas, UCLA acceptance rate is 12% in-state and 22% out of state, UCSB 29% vs 47%, UCSD 26% vs 51%


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 2, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Agree with the problem.   Disagree that HS can be a solution.
> 
> You have over 1300 high schools in CA.   Fewer than 2000 high school girls play ECNL.  Suppose another 2000 are high skill but overlooked.  That gives you 3 high skill girls at each school.   That’s not even enough for a good 2 v 2 at practice.
> 
> We need a different solution to the high cost and long commutes of ECNL.  HS can’t solve it.



Below I included a link to a 2020 high school athletics stats in California (Go volleyball!).    I get the funding needed for soccer and other sports.  That's probably the main bottleneck to resolve with college athletic programs.  You get more funding for other sports outside of football and they can recruit soccer players out of high school.   I need to learn how to write a state  proposition to make the change and push this. 



			Sports Participation at All-Time High for Eighth Consecutive Year -  California Interscholastic Federation
		



Football (11-player) continues to lead the top 10 boys’ sports with 89,756 participants which decreased by 1.69% or 1,549 participants. Track and field (57,302) is the second most popular sport, which increased by 3.55%, followed by soccer (55,036), basketball (47,675), and baseball (45,132) which increased by 1.77%. Additionally, boys’ volleyball participation increased by 5.99%, as well as boys’ lacrosse, which increased by 4.71%.

For girls, soccer captured the top spot for the fifth consecutive year with 48,647 participants. Volleyball came in second (46,495), which increased participation by 1.08%, followed by track and field with 45,318 participants. Basketball (34,368) and softball (32,502) rounded out the top five girls’ sports. Girls’ lacrosse saw a notable 9.11% increase (10,737), taking over the 10th most popular sport for girls, while girls’ wrestling continues to grow with 6,446 participants for a 7.18% increase.


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## outside! (Dec 2, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Football (11-player) continues to lead the top 10 boys’ sports with 89,756 participants which decreased by 1.69% or 1,549 participants. ...boy's ... soccer (55,036),
> For girls, soccer captured the top spot for the fifth consecutive year with 48,647 participants.


So 103,683 HS students played soccer, many more than played football. Soccer deserves the same exposure, funding and support at high schools that football gets.


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## GT45 (Dec 2, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Yes but only to watch CIF games.  ECNL/GAL cost too much for  lower income families.  An inner city high school kid playing football can get great college scholarships while just playing high school football.    Why not apply this to soccer?  The amount of investment for a parent to do ECNL is ridiculous.  You add travel fees and you are talking about $10k a year x 6 years?   $60k to maybe get a scholarship?


These players can get scholarships at ECNL clubs if they demonstrate need. If they are good enough to be recruited by UC's and CSU's then an ECNL club will help them out.


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## timbuck (Dec 2, 2021)

GT45 said:


> These players can get scholarships at ECNL clubs if they demonstrate need. If they are good enough to be recruited by UC's and CSU's then an ECNL club will help them out.


I agree with you on the scholarship part to be able to afford whatever it costs to play.
But the travel can be out of reach.  Or if the club covers the cost of player travel, it might not be feasible for the parent to travel for that many weekends per year.  And many parents don't want their kids staying in hotel rooms unless they are present.


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## GT45 (Dec 2, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I agree with you on the scholarship part to be able to afford whatever it costs to play.
> But the travel can be out of reach.  Or if the club covers the cost of player travel, it might not be feasible for the parent to travel for that many weekends per year.  And many parents don't want their kids staying in hotel rooms unless they are present.


They cannot have it all ways. Plenty of players travel with other families, especially high school aged players. The ones who recruiting is an issue for are 16+ years old. They can travel with a teammate's family. Many teams room players-only together anyway (at least pre-covid they did).


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## crush (Dec 3, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I agree with you on the scholarship part to be able to afford whatever it costs to play.
> But the travel can be out of reach.  Or if the club covers the cost of player travel, it might not be feasible for the parent to travel for that many weekends per year.  *And many parents don't want their kids staying in hotel rooms unless they are present.*


Ya, nothing like a poor kid staying in a 5 star hotel getting everything paid for to score goals.  The poor kid has to go back to their poor parents and poor siblings.  This is just sad.  Of all sports, soccer at the beginning shall be free, not $10,000-$15,000 a year so their kid can play kick ball in college.


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## dad4 (Dec 3, 2021)

GT45 said:


> They cannot have it all ways. Plenty of players travel with other families, especially high school aged players. The ones who recruiting is an issue for are 16+ years old. They can travel with a teammate's family. Many teams room players-only together anyway (at least pre-covid they did).


Great solution for a busy white collar family who live 5 miles from Great Park.   

For a blue collar family from Bakersfield or Fresno, it doesn’t even come close.


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## foreveryoung (Dec 3, 2021)

GT45 said:


> They cannot have it all ways. Plenty of players travel with other families, especially high school aged players. The ones who recruiting is an issue for are 16+ years old. They can travel with a teammate's family. Many teams room players-only together anyway (at least pre-covid they did).


Travel that is excessive and unnecessary to begin with.


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## Emma (Dec 3, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> Agree we do need a better solution to ECNL/MLS NEXT, but genuine question, why does high school work for other sports but it won't work for soccer?


WIth the inception and acceptance of video recordings, high school soccer should work with the lesser budget of soccer programs.  A girl who stands out on her high school soccer field should be looked at by serious soccer coaches. 

If all games are uploading and coaches can take a look, there's no reason to use an expensive traveling programs to find players anymore.  Once they watch the videos, they can decide if they need to drive, fly to a high school to watch games.    Or from the videos, they can invite girls to a local College ID camp and see them compete against the other invited girls in the local area.  Do this a few times a year and it's much cheaper for all players and parents.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 3, 2021)

crush said:


> Ya, nothing like a poor kid staying in a 5 star hotel getting everything paid for to score goals.  The poor kid has to go back to their poor parents and poor siblings.  This is just sad.  Of all sports, soccer at the beginning shall be free, not $10,000-$15,000 a year so their kid can play kick ball in college.


100% agree.   Wait til the rest of the world starts beating up on our USWNT teams in the near future.  This will eventually change.  

The cheapest sport in the world has been overtaken by  rich South OC/San Diego families.    You want to go to college and play soccer. $8k a year once you include travel.


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## futboldad1 (Dec 3, 2021)

Emma said:


> WIth the inception and acceptance of video recordings, high school soccer should work with the lesser budget of soccer programs.  A girl who stands out on her high school soccer field should be looked at by serious soccer coaches.
> 
> If all games are uploading and coaches can take a look, there's no reason to use an expensive traveling programs to find players anymore.  Once they watch the videos, they can decide if they need to drive, fly to a high school to watch games.    Or from the videos, they can invite girls to a local College ID camp and see them compete against the other invited girls in the local area.  Do this a few times a year and it's much cheaper for all players and parents.


Videos of someone dominating versus high school teams and SCDSL teams are not taken seriously by good college programs.....anyone can look good playing versus poor opposition and it's hard to get better.......


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## crush (Dec 3, 2021)

futboldad1 said:


> Videos of someone dominating versus high school teams and SCDSL teams are not taken seriously by good college programs.....anyone can look good playing versus poor opposition and it's hard to get better.......


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## futboldad1 (Dec 3, 2021)

crush said:


>


Talking girls soccer homie…


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## Emma (Dec 3, 2021)

futboldad1 said:


> Videos of someone dominating versus high school teams and SCDSL teams are not taken seriously by good college programs.....anyone can look good playing versus poor opposition and it's hard to get better.......


For skeptics like yourself, I included the second step of inviting them to ID camps in the local area with a bunch of other kids they think may be able to play in college.  With a 2-3 day ID camp, players can play against others that also look great on hs soccer teams.  If a player is dominant in SCDSL, they are most likely at least comparable to ECNL bench players, if not a future starter when that player is ready to jump to and play ECNL.  How do you think girls get to ECNL teams?  kids who haven't decided to leap yet.  ECNL is a platform to showcase talent.  What we're looking for is a similar ECNL platform through a high school system that will allow non upper middle class and rich families access to scout without driving long distances for practice.


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## dad4 (Dec 3, 2021)

Emma said:


> For skeptics like yourself, I included the second step of inviting them to ID camps in the local area with a bunch of other kids they think may be able to play in college.  With a 2-3 day ID camp, players can play against others that also look great on hs soccer teams.  If a player is dominant in SCDSL, they are most likely at least comparable to ECNL bench players, if not a future starter when that player is ready to jump to and play ECNL.  How do you think girls get to ECNL teams?  kids who haven't decided to leap yet.  ECNL is a platform to showcase talent.  What we're looking for is a similar ECNL platform through a high school system that will allow non upper middle class and rich families access to scout without driving long distances for practice.


I like the ID camp idea.  It could bring together top players from local HS teams or solid non-ECNL clubs.

I do have doubts whether Stanford and UNC want to show up just because I think my kid is worth driving to the ID camp.

Who gets the fun job of telling me that Susie won't be at the part of the ID camp with the D1 coaches?


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## crush (Dec 4, 2021)

Emma said:


> For skeptics like yourself, I included the second step of inviting them to ID camps in the local area with a bunch of other kids they think may be able to play in college.  With a 2-3 day ID camp, players can play against others that also look great on hs soccer teams.  If a player is dominant in SCDSL, they are most likely at least comparable to ECNL bench players, if not a future starter when that player is ready to jump to and play ECNL.  How do you think girls get to ECNL teams?  kids who haven't decided to leap yet.  ECNL is a platform to showcase talent.  What we're looking for is a similar ECNL platform through a high school system that will allow non upper middle class and rich families access to scout without driving long distances for practice.


The showcase matches are a joke, boring, nothing on the line, expensive and you spend hours on the freeway ((if you can;t afford to fly)).  Sorry, just have to be honest here.  4 years of soccer showcasing across the country is plenty of showcasing.  If you want to see a girl play when she cares, come see a HSS match.  I'm serious you guys.  I see girls play lights out in HS and ganas is present always.  Can you imagine playing hoops ((sorry futbol dad, I played hoops bro and its the only example I got)) and your the only one without a deal.  The other players are their to show support but dont give a shot anymore and you go out trying to get that last offer on Sunday at 3pm and no coach watching.


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## Brav520 (Dec 4, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I like the ID camp idea.  It could bring together top players from local HS teams or solid non-ECNL clubs.
> 
> I do have doubts whether Stanford and UNC want to show up just because I think my kid is worth driving to the ID camp.
> 
> Who gets the fun job of telling me that Susie won't be at the part of the ID camp with the D1 coaches?


I don’t think Anson is traveling Across the country going to showcases now, though I do remember seeing him at Surf cup many years ago

unless his influence with US soccer has waned over the years , I always heard he is essentially picking and choosing whomever he wants at USYNT camps


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## dad4 (Dec 4, 2021)

Brav520 said:


> I don’t think Anson is traveling Across the country going to showcases now, though I do remember seeing him at Surf cup many years ago
> 
> unless his influence with US soccer has waned over the years , I always heard he is essentially picking and choosing whomever he wants at USYNT camps


Even if AD isn't picking, someone is. 

Given the recent NWSL scandals, that selection process really ought to be run by straight women and gay men.  I'm sure there are straight men who could handle it, but I don't trust the establishment to find them.


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## crush (Dec 4, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Even if AD isn't picking, someone is.
> 
> Given the recent NWSL scandals, that selection process really ought to be run by straight women and gay men.  I'm sure there are straight men who could handle it, but I don't trust the establishment to find them.


Are you freaking serious?  Look man, all the parents "The Customers" want is a great coach, gay or straight.  If coach only focuses on soccer and not other things, then coach and player and parent will be happy.  Also, stop yelling at the girls and stop using them, period and end of story.


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## Keepermom2 (Dec 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I think a lot of us say "If my kids didn't love/like this sport, we'd have pulled out of it a long time ago due to all of the bullshit."


I read your comment to my daughter and she said; "Yeah... you say that all of the time".  I read her the comment so she can see it isn't just me that struggles with the insanity of it all.  I really can't decide which is worse...club soccer or high school soccer.  It is so hard because I am looking forward to getting out of it because I hate the BS of it all but, I am trying to change my attitude because I don't want to miss the joy of watching my daughter play and develop over the next 4 years.


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## GT45 (Dec 4, 2021)

Emma said:


> For skeptics like yourself, I included the second step of inviting them to ID camps in the local area with a bunch of other kids they think may be able to play in college.  With a 2-3 day ID camp, players can play against others that also look great on hs soccer teams.  If a player is dominant in SCDSL, they are most likely at least comparable to ECNL bench players, if not a future starter when that player is ready to jump to and play ECNL.  How do you think girls get to ECNL teams?  kids who haven't decided to leap yet.  ECNL is a platform to showcase talent.  What we're looking for is a similar ECNL platform through a high school system that will allow non upper middle class and rich families access to scout without driving long distances for practice.


Players develop by playing with and against better competition. Dominating high school games where the talent range is so vast, makes it harder for good players to develop. ECNL is more than a platorm to showcase talent. It pushes players to develop when they are playing against the best players in the country day in and day out.


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## GT45 (Dec 4, 2021)

foreveryoung said:


> Travel that is excessive and unnecessary to begin with.


It is a national league. That means you travel. There is the So Cal league for you if you do not want to travel. There is literally a league for everyone. Pick the one that works for you.  I LOVE ECNL. I love the travel. I love how similar it is to college soccer experiences. It is designed to prepare players for college soccer. Players rooming together on the road, competing at the highest levels. I also love seeing the growth of the girls on and off the field as they mature, handling travel as a team, seeing new places, etc.


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## crush (Dec 4, 2021)

GT45 said:


> It is a national league. That means you travel. There is the So Cal league for you if you do not want to travel. There is literally a league for everyone. Pick the one that works for you.  I LOVE ECNL. I love the travel. I love how similar it is to college soccer experiences. It is designed to prepare players for college soccer. Players rooming together on the road, competing at the highest levels. I also love seeing the growth of the girls on and off the field as they mature, handling travel as a team, seeing new places, etc.


Easy on the Syrup bro.....lol.  I get you and happy the league has been amazing for your family.  No lines for you I guess.  Look, most cannot afford the travel league.  We all need to share soccer man and keep the best of the best local.  I understand your love for the league and have friends that swear by it.


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## GT45 (Dec 4, 2021)

No we don't. There is a league for everyone. If you cannot afford it, seek a scholarship, or choose to play in a local league.


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## crush (Dec 4, 2021)

GT45 said:


> No we don't. There is a league for everyone. If you cannot afford it, seek a scholarship, or choose to play in a local league.


Let me change that.  "We should and can share soccer" but if you want to hog it all, then go right ahead.  Just remember we asked to share and you said no unless we beg for scholarship or play in local league.  Thanks for nothing bro.  I tried.  It's on you now....


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## dad4 (Dec 4, 2021)

As soon as you say "there is a league for everyone", you're splitting the talent pool.  Some top kids go here, some go there.  Both leagues end up diffuse and weak.

This works fine for those who want to be the big fish in a small pond.

For those who simply want decent competition, all those league divisions just get in the way.


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## GT45 (Dec 4, 2021)

The vast majority of top players play ECNL. It is a great league. There are options (in and out of ECNL) for those who cannot afford it.

If one wants to stay in a 5 star hotel but cannot afford it, then they choose a 3 star. That is life.

People whine about pay for play. Who do they think is going to pay for it?

There is a reality in life. We cannot all afford everything we want. But, fortunately, ECNL clubs will work with families who demonstrate need.


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## crush (Dec 5, 2021)

GT45 said:


> The vast majority of top players play ECNL. It is a great league. There are options (in and out of ECNL) for those who cannot afford it.
> 
> If one wants to stay in a 5 star hotel but cannot afford it, then they choose a 3 star. That is life.
> 
> ...


I truly understand better today then yesterday why the divide soccer and this country.  The fact is, most cannot afford the league let alone the 3 star roach motel.  You can have all the soccer you can buy. Enjoy it with Jones and Smiths


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## dad4 (Dec 5, 2021)

GT45 said:


> The vast majority of top players play ECNL. It is a great league. There are options (in and out of ECNL) for those who cannot afford it.
> 
> If one wants to stay in a 5 star hotel but cannot afford it, then they choose a 3 star. That is life.
> 
> ...


The complaint is not that people want to travel and can’t afford it. 

The complaint is that ECNL is damaging the local competitive landscape by serving half, but only half, of the top players.  State Cup gets weak right about the age ECNL takes off.

Put another way, when you built your 5 star hotel, you dumped your construction debris on the motel 6.


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## GT45 (Dec 5, 2021)

I think ECNL serves way more than half of the top players (at the high school ages anyway). And, ECNL should not have to be held back to serve everyone. It is a national league designed to serve a national player base.


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2021)

GT45 said:


> The vast majority of top players play ECNL. It is a great league. There are options (in and out of ECNL) for those who cannot afford it.
> 
> If one wants to stay in a 5 star hotel but cannot afford it, then they choose a 3 star. That is life.
> 
> ...


This is not about hotel accommodations.  This is about youth soccer - kids playing soccer.    You're really sold on the steel sharpens steel idea sold by large clubs.  How do you think players like Hailie Mace and many other girls from small clubs that end up at ECNL in sophomore, junior and senior to become starters develop? A great coach, love for the game, hard work, physical development and intelligence in reading the game.   I've seen plenty of potential greats quit or not develop because it became too much of a job at such a young age of 10, 11, 12, 13.  By the time they hit 14-15, they just don't love the game because steel versus steel cuts other things like love for the game, time with family and friends.   The best of the best is not produced, it's reduced.


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## GT45 (Dec 5, 2021)

Emma said:


> This is not about hotel accommodations.  This is about youth soccer - kids playing soccer.    You're really sold on the steel sharpens steel idea sold by large clubs.  How do you think players like Hailie Mace and many other girls from small clubs that end up at ECNL in sophomore, junior and senior to become starters develop? A great coach, love for the game, hard work, physical development and intelligence in reading the game.   I've seen plenty of potential greats quit or not develop because it became too much of a job at such a young age of 10, 11, 12, 13.  By the time they hit 14-15, they just don't love the game because steel versus steel cuts other things like love for the game, time with family and friends.   The best of the best is not produced, it's reduced.


I am not sure what your point is. Hotels were a simple example.

All I have said is that ECNL is a great league. If you don't want to play in it, if you don't want to travel, there are other options. Don't force ECNL to be what you want. Play HS soccer, play So Cal League, play GA, play ECNL. You have a choice. ECNL offers one option. I happen to think it is the best league for my kids growth.


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## crush (Dec 5, 2021)

Emma said:


> This is not about hotel accommodations.  This is about youth soccer - kids playing soccer.    You're really sold on the steel sharpens steel idea sold by large clubs.  How do you think players like Hailie Mace and many other girls from small clubs that end up at ECNL in sophomore, junior and senior to become starters develop? A great coach, love for the game, hard work, physical development and intelligence in reading the game.   I've seen plenty of potential greats quit or not develop because it became too much of a job at such a young age of 10, 11, 12, 13.  By the time they hit 14-15, they just don't love the game because steel versus steel cuts other things like love for the game, time with family and friends.   The best of the best is not produced, it's reduced.


Excellent!!!


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2021)

GT45 said:


> I am not sure what your point is. Hotels were a simple example.
> 
> All I have said is that ECNL is a great league. If you don't want to play in it, if you don't want to travel, there are other options. Don't force ECNL to be what you want. Play HS soccer, play So Cal League, play GA, play ECNL. You have a choice. ECNL offers one option. I happen to think it is the best league for my kids growth.


We were discussing the idea of creating a system where kids can continue with club soccer but how to change the emphasis on recruiting based on high school soccer in order to give girls/kids more access to college recruitment in order to reduce the cost of soccer for potential college soccer players.  Your argument for not doing so came back around to steel v steel argument and then you threw in what people can afford.  Do you really believe the best thing for the soccer talent and athletic kids is to limit recruiting kids for college soccer to people who can only afford 5 star hotels or sacrifice everything else in their lives to stay in 5 star hotels?


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I like the ID camp idea.  It could bring together top players from local HS teams or solid non-ECNL clubs.
> 
> I do have doubts whether Stanford and UNC want to show up just because I think my kid is worth driving to the ID camp.
> 
> Who gets the fun job of telling me that Susie won't be at the part of the ID camp with the D1 coaches?


I think attending coaches get to invite players they want to see.  The college coaches make the decisions, not club coaches or hs coaches.  Coaches watch the hs games via online access and they decide which players they want to invite to the camps.


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## Grace T. (Dec 5, 2021)

Some of you guys make it sound like high school football is some recruitment shangrila. The fact is that only certain high schools in certain divisions get looks.  Parents who want to get these looks have to move em or commute (often with some residency shenanigans) to the chosen public schools or get them a scholarship to one of the football emphasizing private schools. Check out the shenanigans involved this year for example with mater dei, Inglewood or simi.  What we experience in club soccer pales in comparison to some of bs going on in the high school football scene.

also all positions aren’t created equal.  Qb is a very skills oriented position and you can’t be playing behind someone if you are looking for high level looks (that means moving schools if you are in someone’s shadow). Similar for receivers and running backs. Less true of linesmen who get looks more for their physical  forms.


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## GT45 (Dec 6, 2021)

Emma said:


> We were discussing the idea of creating a system where kids can continue with club soccer but how to change the emphasis on recruiting based on high school soccer in order to give girls/kids more access to college recruitment in order to reduce the cost of soccer for potential college soccer players.  Your argument for not doing so came back around to steel v steel argument and then you threw in what people can afford.  Do you really believe the best thing for the soccer talent and athletic kids is to limit recruiting kids for college soccer to people who can only afford 5 star hotels or sacrifice everything else in their lives to stay in 5 star hotels?


No I don't, and that was not what I said.  What I said is that ECNL clubs offer scholarships so it is available to players in need. There are opportunities for everyone if they choose to seek the right fit out for them. Others chimed in that those players' parents want to be able to travel, too. Too bad. You can't afford everything you want in life. Parents can stay home.

Your idea of creating HS soccer as the primary recruiting pool is ridiculous. The talent is too spread out so the development would not be there.


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## Grace T. (Dec 6, 2021)

GT45 said:


> No I don't, and that was not what I said.  What I said is that ECNL clubs offer scholarships so it is available to players in need. There are opportunities for everyone if they choose to seek the right fit out for them. Others chimed in that those players' parents want to be able to travel, too. Too bad. You can't afford everything you want in life. Parents can stay home.
> 
> Your idea of creating HS soccer as the primary recruiting pool is ridiculous. The talent is too spread out so the development would not be there.


It would aggregate…quickly as a handful of coaches poach squads in exchange for looks…same as softball, cheer, water polo, swimming and running. I just don’t think most parents around here would be happy: a) moving houses (particularly if little Becky doesn’t make the first squad), b) commuting to school an hour plus in SoCal traffic or c) shelling out private school tuition for which girl scholarships would be limited (the privates treat football as financial aid cases and it doesn’t always covered full freight).

I once interviewed a minority football candidate at a private school.  Great kid. For obvious reasons we didn’t get into the size of his scholarship but he stayed with classmates over the week so as to avoid the to and from commute from southern Los Angeles which he wouldn’t have been able to manage on top of his job and football.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 7, 2021)

GT45 said:


> What I said is that ECNL clubs offer scholarships so it is available to players in need. There are opportunities for everyone if they choose to seek the right fit out for them.


In 5 years you will see significant changes to ECNL.

MLS is beginning to take over their own youth development and now a league that competes with USL.
On the women’s side, you will see the new pro league begin to look for ties to the youth clubs in their area.  
Girls are picking up sports like volleyball or track Volleyball is growing at a faster rate than soccer in California. 

Finally, the amount of kids playing sports will be shrinking significantly because of families  leaving the state and couples having fewer kids.      My wife is a 1st grade teacher  and they are beginning to consolidate schools in her area.  We are talking of many schools closing due to lack of kids.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 7, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> In 5 years you will see significant changes to ECNL.
> 
> MLS is beginning to take over their own youth development and now a league that competes with USL.
> On the women’s side, you will see the new pro league begin to look for ties to the youth clubs in their area.
> ...


ECNL isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Neither is youth soccer in general.

Also Lacrosse is growing faster than volleyball primarily because you don’t need to be tall to throw a ball with a stick. Also Lacrosse scholarships get you into nice private schools. Volleyball scholarships get you into Iowa State. (Nothing against Iowa State)


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## dad4 (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> ECNL isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Neither is youth soccer in general.
> 
> Also Lacrosse is growing faster than volleyball primarily because you don’t need to be tall to throw a ball with a stick. Also Lacrosse scholarships get you into nice private schools. Volleyball scholarships get you into Iowa State. (Nothing against Iowa State)


ECNL isn’t going anywhere.  But parents in ECNL can ask their coaches and TM to schedule games or scrimmages against the similarly ranked teams in their area.

Saying “we’re too amazing to play you” is a fair point if you just beat Solar and Real Co last week.  But, if you are ranked 227, get off your high horse.  You’re a local power with a fancy patch.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> ECNL isn’t going anywhere.  But parents in ECNL can ask their coaches and TM to schedule games or scrimmages against the similarly ranked teams in their area.
> 
> Saying “we’re too amazing to play you” is a fair point if you just beat Solar and Real Co last week.  But, if you are ranked 227, get off your high horse.  You’re a local power with a fancy patch.


I am not saying it's going to go away (ECNL).  My point is that you are already seeing pressure on the boys side with ECNL.  If I have a son that is a great player, I am not going the ECNL route, I would do the MLS Next or find a way to get to Europe.   ECNL will be less relevant with boys. 

 On the women's side, Europe is going to surpass the USA in terms of talent and funding at the club level.   They will attract some of the best and young talented players.   In a diluting market, you will need to change and I would say merge ECNL and GAL. 

Here's a stat to consider:  

*Only 38% of kids* ages 6 to 12 played team sports on a regular basis in 2018, down from 45% in 2008, per the Sports & Fitness Industry Association.









						Kids are losing interest in organized sports. Why that matters
					

The number of kids involved in team sports has been falling and the pandemic may have accelerated the trend.




					www.latimes.com


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 7, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I am not saying it's going to go away (ECNL).  My point is that you are already seeing pressure on the boys side with ECNL.  If I have a son that is a great player, I am not going the ECNL route, I would do the MLS Next or find a way to get to Europe.   ECNL will be less relevant with boys.
> 
> On the women's side, Europe is going to surpass the USA in terms of talent and funding at the club level.   They will attract some of the best and young talented players.   In a diluting market, you will need to change and I would say merge ECNL and GAL.
> 
> ...


Why would you go MLS Next over ECNL for boys? 

From what I understand about MLS Next is a funnel for professional teams not college. Pro Soccer pays 40k-80k on average.

If Boys/Mens college recruiters are going to ECNL events getting a scholarship seems like a better deal than professional soccer. Also you can play pro after college.


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## tjinaz (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Why would you go MLS Next over ECNL for boys?
> 
> From what I understand about MLS Next is a funnel for professional teams not college. Pro Soccer pays 40k-80k on average.
> 
> If Boys/Mens college recruiters are going to ECNL events getting a scholarship seems like a better deal than professional soccer. Also you can play pro after college.


Because MLS Next is the best league.  DA was better than ECNL as well.   You think the college coaches don't scout the best players?  Not everyone will or wants to jump to the Pros right off the bat.  Plenty to see for college coaches and fertile ground for recruiting.


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## whatithink (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Why would you go MLS Next over ECNL for boys?
> 
> From what I understand about MLS Next is a funnel for professional teams not college. Pro Soccer pays 40k-80k on average.
> 
> If Boys/Mens college recruiters are going to ECNL events getting a scholarship seems like a better deal than professional soccer. Also you can play pro after college.


On the boys side, the ECNL is not very strong. Those teams are being regularly beaten in tournaments and showcases by non-ECNL teams. The very best of them may be an exception, but generally speaking its not a high standard.

College coaches will look to recruit from MLS Next teams. If you are on one of those and you haven't made it to an actual MLS academy by U15, you are looking for college looks, not pro.

The days of college kids going pro is gone or just about gone. All the MLS teams have academies now and are working with players from 14 and up. That's where they are putting their money. There is no way a kid from college should be able to trump kids from their academies who they are looking to bring in from 17/18 onwards.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 7, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The days of college kids going pro is gone or just about gone. All the MLS teams have academies now and are working with players from 14 and up. That's where they are putting their money. There is no way a kid from college should be able to trump kids from their academies who they are looking to bring in from 17/18 onwards.


Agreed. 
On the boys side, colleges are also pulling from European youth players that are not good enough to go pro.   It's just a matter of time to see this  more on the women's side.  My niece is at UCLA and they have players from Australia, Norway, Sweden, and I believe Japan.


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## espola (Dec 7, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Agreed.
> On the boys side, colleges are also pulling from European youth players that are not good enough to go pro.   It's just a matter of time to see this  more on the women's side.  My niece is at UCLA and they have players from Australia, Norway, Sweden, and I believe Japan.


Foreign athletes are especially attractive to college coaches because their governments often finance their education in the USA, thus not requiring tapping into the athletic department budget,


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 7, 2021)

whatithink said:


> On the boys side, the ECNL is not very strong. Those teams are being regularly beaten in tournaments and showcases by non-ECNL teams. The very best of them may be an exception, but generally speaking its not a high standard.
> 
> College coaches will look to recruit from MLS Next teams. If you are on one of those and you haven't made it to an actual MLS academy by U15, you are looking for college looks, not pro.
> 
> The days of college kids going pro is gone or just about gone. All the MLS teams have academies now and are working with players from 14 and up. That's where they are putting their money. There is no way a kid from college should be able to trump kids from their academies who they are looking to bring in from 17/18 onwards.


Baseball is the same way. If you're not playing minor league by 19-20 they dont really care how good you are. The focus is to identify talent as young a possible and favor those players.

If/When colleges start playing players things will likely change a little. At least for the top Schools willing to pay big $$$ for talent.


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## Emma (Dec 7, 2021)

GT45 said:


> No I don't, and that was not what I said.  What I said is that ECNL clubs offer scholarships so it is available to players in need. There are opportunities for everyone if they choose to seek the right fit out for them. Others chimed in that those players' parents want to be able to travel, too. Too bad. You can't afford everything you want in life. Parents can stay home.
> 
> Your idea of creating HS soccer as the primary recruiting pool is ridiculous. The talent is too spread out so the development would not be there.


If you've ever seen a kid shine in a discovery league game, you'd see that


GT45 said:


> No I don't, and that was not what I said.  What I said is that ECNL clubs offer scholarships so it is available to players in need. There are opportunities for everyone if they choose to seek the right fit out for them. Others chimed in that those players' parents want to be able to travel, too. Too bad. You can't afford everything you want in life. Parents can stay home.
> 
> Your idea of creating HS soccer as the primary recruiting pool is ridiculous. The talent is too spread out so the development would not be there.


If that's not what you meant to say, I apologize for reading into it that way but it's how I understood your statements.  I'm not advocating for elimination of club soccer or ECNL, I'm advocating an additional method, a local and cheaper way to recruit players for the benefit of all families and to grow high school soccer like football nights. 

Scouting on a varsity high school soccer team (via video) and bringing the best players in for ID camps doesn't seem ridiculous.  The best coaches, which I assume college scouts will be, are able to recognize skills, speed and intelligence, even when the opponents aren't that great.  Through the years, many of us parents have recognized and recruited players from 1, 2 or 3 levels lower based on their own personal skills on the field, not the team's performance and we've been successful at it.  ECNL coaches have looked at players from lower levels because of this.


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## Grace T. (Dec 7, 2021)

Emma said:


> Scouting on a varsity high school soccer team (via video) and bringing the best players in for ID camps doesn't seem ridiculous.  The best coaches, which I assume college scouts will be, are able to recognize skills, speed and intelligence, even when the opponents aren't that great.  Through the years, many of us parents have recognized and recruited players from 1, 2 or 3 levels lower based on their own personal skills on the field, not the team's performance and we've been successful at it.  ECNL coaches have looked at players from lower levels because of this.


The stars would really have to align to have a recruitable soccer player out of the varsity high school team that isn't already playing at a high club level.  First, they would have to go to one of the soccer powered schools that has decent coaching and decent opposition. Second, the high school soccer season as it exists now is really very short (a handful weeks of practice together and they are already off playing games) which is one of the reasons the play in high school soccer (and college for that matter), is such a mess.  Third, this person would have to make the varsity team early in order to get the recruitment look (since senior year could be way too late), despite that many schools favor playing seniors on the varsity team. Fourth, soccer as a sport doesn't really operate that way....it's not enough to be just athletic, you need to develop your touch which means constantly working at it with other higher level players....it's hard to see how someone in high school soccer that isn't already playing high level club soccer is going to keep up those skills in comparison with kids who are working at it year round.

It means that pretty much the only kids this would benefit are kids (who because of the grades or other time commitments) don't have the time to commit to the practice schedule and drives of the higher level teams, and so decided to take a step back and now play silver level or flight 1/2 club and aren't part of large clubs (because they are that good and could use them) that borrow them from lower level teams for high visibility tournaments.  That's a lot of work for a college recruiter to find a rare diamond in the rough from someone who (whatever the reason) hasn't chosen to prioritize college soccer (whether because of grades, band, debate, art, charities or whatever).

Not opining whether or not this is a good or not good idea.  Just trying to explain why it probably hasn't happened.


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## espola (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Baseball is the same way. If you're not playing minor league by 19-20 they dont really care how good you are. The focus is to identify talent as young a possible and favor those players.
> 
> If/When colleges start playing players things will likely change a little. At least for the top Schools willing to pay big $$$ for talent.


Half or more of the players picked in this year's MLB June draft were college players.





__





						2021 Baseball Draft by Baseball Almanac
					

The 2021 Baseball Draft by Baseball Almanac.



					www.baseball-almanac.com


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 7, 2021)

espola said:


> Half or more of the players picked in this year's MLB June draft were college players.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, I've heard otherwise. I wonder how many of the college players were drafted before graduating.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Interesting, I've heard otherwise. I wonder how many of the college players were drafted before graduating.


Looks like drafts listed as college can be graduated or not. Also production between HS and College grads is nearly equal...

"By 1978, a majority of draftees had played college baseball, and by 2002, the number rose above sixty percent.[19] While the number of high school players drafted has dropped, those picked have been more successful than their predecessors. In a study of drafts from 1984 to 1999, Baseball Prospectus writer Rany Jazayerli concluded that, by the 1990s, the gap in production between the two groups had nearly disappeared."

This has nothing to do with soccer.


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## espola (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Interesting, I've heard otherwise. I wonder how many of the college players were drafted before graduating.


The pro baseball players my kids knew from high school averaged 3 years or so in college before entering the draft and turning pro.  A couple of them (Alex Dickerson and Connor Joe) are still playing - the rest bounced around in the minors for a few years before leaving the pro ranks.

The guy in my high school class (Littleton NH '65) who was drafted got no signing bonus and barely made it only to the second week of spring training.   The last I knew of him he was driving a cab, but he had no college plans anyway.


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## watfly (Dec 7, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> From what I understand about MLS Next is a funnel for professional teams not college.


Really?  I can tell you that the college scouts were out in force at the MLS Next Fest at Silverlakes.  This list is legit unless dudes in college branded tracksuits with notebooks were just pretending. I spoke to a couple including one from Stanford and they were very impressed with the showcase.


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## whatithink (Dec 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The stars would really have to align to have a recruitable soccer player out of the varsity high school team that isn't already playing at a high club level.  First, they would have to go to one of the soccer powered schools that has decent coaching and decent opposition. Second, the high school soccer season as it exists now is really very short (a handful weeks of practice together and they are already off playing games) which is one of the reasons the play in high school soccer (and college for that matter), is such a mess.  Third, this person would have to make the varsity team early in order to get the recruitment look (since senior year could be way too late), despite that many schools favor playing seniors on the varsity team. Fourth, soccer as a sport doesn't really operate that way....it's not enough to be just athletic, you need to develop your touch which means constantly working at it with other higher level players....it's hard to see how someone in high school soccer that isn't already playing high level club soccer is going to keep up those skills in comparison with kids who are working at it year round.
> 
> It means that pretty much the only kids this would benefit are kids (who because of the grades or other time commitments) don't have the time to commit to the practice schedule and drives of the higher level teams, and so decided to take a step back and now play silver level or flight 1/2 club and aren't part of large clubs (because they are that good and could use them) that borrow them from lower level teams for high visibility tournaments.  That's a lot of work for a college recruiter to find a rare diamond in the rough from someone who (whatever the reason) hasn't chosen to prioritize college soccer (whether because of grades, band, debate, art, charities or whatever).
> 
> Not opining whether or not this is a good or not good idea.  Just trying to explain why it probably hasn't happened.


One thing I've noticed here in AZ is that the MLS Next tends to be free and that has changed the demographics of the players on the top teams. Most of those kids played for dad coaches. The girls side is very much a money / disposable income based league.


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## tjinaz (Dec 7, 2021)

whatithink said:


> One thing I've noticed here in AZ is that the MLS Next tends to be free and that has changed the demographics of the players on the top teams. Most of those kids played for dad coaches. The girls side is very much a money / disposable income based league.


This is the change American soccer needs.  Get the best kids in the MLS academies or MLS Next teams at low or no cost so the club can develop them to sell to either other MLS teams or Europe.  It is the sale of players that funds the European systems.  The sooner we become a selling league the faster we get rid of pay to play.  (for boys... for girls its still college)


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## whatithink (Dec 7, 2021)

tjinaz said:


> This is the change American soccer needs.  Get the best kids in the MLS academies or MLS Next teams at low or no cost so the club can develop them to sell to either other MLS teams or Europe.  It is the sale of players that funds the European systems.  The sooner we become a selling league the faster we get rid of pay to play.  (for boys... for girls its still college)


MLS is a very different business model to the European systems.

Unpacking the Major League Soccer Business Model | by Isaac Krasny | Medium

Youth soccer teams getting part of the transfer fees under FIFA rules would go a lot further to eliminating pay to play.


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## tjinaz (Dec 7, 2021)

whatithink said:


> MLS is a very different business model to the European systems.
> 
> Unpacking the Major League Soccer Business Model | by Isaac Krasny | Medium
> 
> Youth soccer teams getting part of the transfer fees under FIFA rules would go a lot further to eliminating pay to play.


But they do get compensation for development costs of players sold overseas.









						MLS adopting training compensation: What does it mean?
					

With MLS clubs now able to collect training compensation and solidarity payments, Jeff Carlisle details the implications on North American soccer.




					www.espn.com
				




In the case of Christian Pulisic's $73.1 million transfer from Borussia Dortmund to Chelsea, one of his youth clubs, PA Classics, stood to make, at minimum $548,000. For a youth club, that is a considerable windfall, although PA Classics told ESPN FC last year that it wouldn't seek any solidarity payments related to Pulisic's transfer. Obviously, not every fee is that large, but solidarity payments can easily exceed $100,000.


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## Brav520 (Dec 7, 2021)

These MLS franchises cost what 300-400 million

TV money isn’t there , it’s hard for these owners to make a significant investment into youth system, especially when I’m not sure many of these owners really “love the sport”. Plus don’t they only get 66% of the actual transfer, rest is split between all other teams

FC Dallas is arguably the best in the MLS at producing young talent that can be sold. Now you could certainly make an argument that that has more to do with location , as Dallas has always been a premier hotbed of talent .If your a FC Dallas fan , who is almost never a real contender, do you continue to hang your hat on the fact you sell the most players , I mean no one seems to go to their games

until there is serious TV money in the sport in this country, I don’t see the investment in youth being there . And whose to say even if the money does flow to the owners that they will actually re-invest it in youth development


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