# Parent tackles AR



## Jar!23 (Nov 17, 2021)

https://www.kcra.com/amp/article/roseville-referee-parent-youth-soccer-game/38277303?fbclid=IwAR1eG8iQa7YZx1XZj1waNKTF2Q3Bw-0DbCyPNF0D8lu0BYZzWqulV4yn8Gg

So embarrassing for the player whose dad causes the team to be kicked out of league for a season.  Well since they are high schoolers, they weren’t going to play Spring 2022 anyways.


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## futboldad1 (Nov 17, 2021)

Disgraceful and cowardly cheap shot.....Charge him with assault asap.....

only shame is that the perp didn't have a heart attack as it looks like that's the furthest he's ever ran....


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## timbuck (Nov 17, 2021)

I'm looking for a business partner.  I want to install boxing rings at all soccer complexes (probably hockey rinks and baseball fields too) around the country.  14 oz gloves.  Head gear.  Moutpieces. Certified Referees.  3 rounds of 3 minutes.
If you want to fight a coach, ref, parent or player-  You gotta step into the ring.
If you win your fight-  Your kid is free to continue playing
If you lose your fight-  Your kid is banned from all team and individual sports for 2 years.

Referees, at their discretion, can also choose to make a parent step into the ring or be asked to leave the game. Any arguing after that-  You are in the ring.  This can be to fight the referee or an opposing parent that has been chirping too much.


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## 46n2 (Nov 18, 2021)

unacceptable


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## whatithink (Nov 18, 2021)

Its crazy how coaches & parent in youth soccer seem to think that referees are there to be abused.

They had enough in Ireland just this month, with referees in Dublin going on strike and shutting down all games as a result. They are done with the non stop abuse they receive. 

FAI condemns abuse of referees as Dublin officials go on strike - Irish Mirror Online


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## outside! (Nov 18, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Its crazy how coaches & parent in youth soccer seem to think that referees are there to be abused.
> 
> They had enough in Ireland just this month, with referees in Dublin going on strike and shutting down all games as a result. They are done with the non stop abuse they receive.
> 
> FAI condemns abuse of referees as Dublin officials go on strike - Irish Mirror Online


Soccer would do well to emulate rugby with regards to sportsmanship and treatment of referees.


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## whatithink (Nov 18, 2021)

outside! said:


> Soccer would do well to emulate rugby with regards to sportsmanship and treatment of referees.


What's that saying, "Rugby, a game for thugs played by gentlemen; soccer, a game for gentlemen, played by thugs".


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## watfly (Nov 18, 2021)

outside! said:


> Soccer would do well to emulate rugby with regards to sportsmanship and treatment of referees.


That would require a major mindset change by both players and refs.  I watched some of a rugby match the other day and the ref was mic'd up.  It was fascinating to hear how the ref was in constant communication with the players.  My impression is that rugby refs see themselves as facilitators of the game, whereas soccer refs see themselves as judge of the game.  There seems to be a mutual respect in rugby, not so much in soccer.


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## espola (Nov 18, 2021)

I think there is a lot more going on here than the video shows.  At the time the video starts, before the criminal enters the field, there are already two coaches and at least two substitutes from the near side on the field and the center referee already has his red card in the air.


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## Highlander (Nov 18, 2021)

This is crazy... I heard the game was in Roseville. Anyone know which clubs were playing?


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## Ed Ho (Nov 18, 2021)

espola said:


> I think there is a lot more going on here than the video shows.  At the time the video starts, before the criminal enters the field, there are already two coaches and at least two substitutes from the near side on the field and the center referee already has his red card in the air.


I’m sure thee is more to it than the video captured, but I can’t think of anything that would ever justify a parent attacking a referee.

BTW - if I had to guess the player who got the red and was himself looking to attack the referee ( being held back), was the son of the parent that committed the assault.  Apple > tree


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## Jar!23 (Nov 18, 2021)

http://www.norcalreferees.com/incidents/edit/j86zvclx112j2/

Here is the incident report.  The player confronted the AR over a call.  The AR pushed the player away (this was reported in another news story).  The center ref went to show a red card to the player.  That’s when the guy runs over to push the AR down.  Looks like a pretty hard and forceful hit to me.

I like to read the Norcal reports and suspensions every week.  Very amusing and also highly disturbing.  They have been trying to be extra tough on coaches lately and handing out suspensions for inappropriate behavior.  Lots of parents don’t realize Norcal will suspend coaches for failure to control parents.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 18, 2021)

Come on, truth, who has wanted to do this to a ref at one time or another?


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## watfly (Nov 18, 2021)

Jar!23 said:


> http://www.norcalreferees.com/incidents/edit/j86zvclx112j2/
> 
> Here is the incident report.  The player confronted the AR over a call.  The AR pushed the player away (this was reported in another news story).  The center ref went to show a red card to the player.  That’s when the guy runs over to push the AR down.  Looks like a pretty hard and forceful hit to me.
> 
> I like to read the Norcal reports and suspensions every week.  Very amusing and also highly disturbing.  They have been trying to be extra tough on coaches lately and handing out suspensions for inappropriate behavior.  Lots of parents don’t realize Norcal will suspend coaches for failure to control parents.


Don't know the circumstances but the AR should be suspended as well for pushing the player if there were no extenuating circumstances.  Verbal abuse doesn't give the AR the right to touch a minor and he elevated the situation.  In this case 3 wrongs don't make a right.  The parent should get a permanent suspension.


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## Grace T. (Nov 18, 2021)

Jar!23 said:


> Lots of parents don’t realize Norcal will suspend coaches for failure to control parents.


Calsouth has been doing this as well.


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## outside! (Nov 19, 2021)

watfly said:


> Don't know the circumstances but the AR should be suspended as well for pushing the player if there were no extenuating circumstances.  Verbal abuse doesn't give the AR the right to touch a minor and he elevated the situation.  In this case 3 wrongs don't make a right.  The parent should get a permanent suspension.


What if the player touched the AR first. How far should an AR back away before protecting their personal space?


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## dad4 (Nov 19, 2021)

outside! said:


> What if the player touched the AR first. How far should an AR back away before protecting their personal space?


Still a kid.  You’re in front of the coaches.  You can easily back up 10-20 feet or more while the coach tries to reign in the player and the center explains what the red card is for.

To watch the video, the teammates tried to do the right thing and keep the offending player out of it.


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## Jar!23 (Nov 19, 2021)

We don’t know what the player did to the AR and how bad the push from the AR was.  Player should known better than to confront the ref.  All season long we have been hounded by messages from NorCal about ref abuse.  The club should have been equally as clear in their communications with coaches, players and parents.  Sometimes we only have 1 ref.  The ref will make bad calls.  The ref will be horrible.  That’s just given now and to be expected.  It seems though no matter how many times we repeat that, some parents will still scream, yell and have a meltdown on the sidelines.  

AR should not have touched the player.  The dad definitely should not have reacted the way he did.  Parents with anger issues and believe that every little slight requires a reaction need to relax.  Some people should really just stay home.


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## Grace T. (Nov 19, 2021)

Jar!23 said:


> We don’t know what the player did to the AR and how bad the push from the AR was.  Player should known better than to confront the ref.  All season long we have been hounded by messages from NorCal about ref abuse.  The club should have been equally as clear in their communications with coaches, players and parents.  Sometimes we only have 1 ref.  The ref will make bad calls.  The ref will be horrible.  That’s just given now and to be expected.  It seems though no matter how many times we repeat that, some parents will still scream, yell and have a meltdown on the sidelines.
> 
> AR should not have touched the player.  The dad definitely should not have reacted the way he did.  Parents with anger issues and believe that every little slight requires a reaction need to relax.  Some people should really just stay home.


Agree with most of what you say.  But unless the AR was exercising self-defense, touching a minor with even a little bit of force is not a "little slight".  Agree it doesn't excuse the behavior, but I've seen 4 incidents like this post-COVID now of varying degree of confrontation....they all involve the issue of some sort of physical danger to the player (injury causing tackle, failure to control game, ref getting in a player's face and cursing out player, and this one), not something like a bad off side call.  I'm not looking to excuse the behavior, just to explain what usually causes it.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Nov 19, 2021)

Jar!23 said:


> https://www.kcra.com/amp/article/roseville-referee-parent-youth-soccer-game/38277303?fbclid=IwAR1eG8iQa7YZx1XZj1waNKTF2Q3Bw-0DbCyPNF0D8lu0BYZzWqulV4yn8Gg
> 
> So embarrassing for the player whose dad causes the team to be kicked out of league for a season.  Well since they are high schoolers, they weren’t going to play Spring 2022 anyways.


my god... he should be banned from the sidelines for 2 years minimum, if not lifetime ban... he certainly doesn't have the mental maturity and could even be abusive to his kids and family if that's how he acts in public...


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## watfly (Nov 19, 2021)

outside! said:


> What if the player touched the AR first. How far should an AR back away before protecting their personal space?


I dont know? What kind of circumstances would prevent a ref from walking away?  I dont think protecting your personal space is justification for aggressivelly touching a minor. Im pretty sure that the LOTG dont have a "stand your ground" provision for refs.  Maybe their is evidence that the kid tried to assault the ref?  My opinion would be different if he physically attacked the ref.  Im basing my opinion on what has been reported, which is quite often not accurate.

Like I said before 3 wrongs dont make a right.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 19, 2021)

I have refereed games (center and AR) …it is not an easy task. I make it a habit of not saying anything to the refs. It’s pointless. For me, refs are the third team on the field.

The Ref issue comes down  to lack of mentorship and auditing.

Some refs are running around doing their own thing… The only consistency is how bad is are they going to be.

Refs need to be audited.. unionized or managed by a central organization.

A master referee position (NorCal/Calsouth) needs to be at all games watching and advising. Removing those that are not up to the task.

The parents need to understand this is a league issue and you get what you pay for. Best thing to do is move on to the next game.


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## Jar!23 (Nov 19, 2021)

People just seem so angry.  Yes, I’ve seen terrible refs.  I’ve seen terrible fouls.  But at the end of day, we have to model behavior for our kids.  I’ve seen parents abuse their kids, yelling and screaming at them during games.  They tend to want their player to be more aggressive. Foul the other player back!  Don’t let them bully you!  Revenge!  
I understand the urge to retaliate.  But everyone needs to think and exhibit more self control.  If the AR touched the kid, the parent, coach and club could raise a stink and get the ref banned.  Now it looks like its the other way around.  Who won?


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## dad4 (Nov 19, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> I have refereed games (center and AR) …it is not an easy task. I make it a habit of not saying anything to the refs. It’s pointless. For me, refs are the third team on the field.
> 
> The Ref issue comes down  to lack of mentorship and auditing.
> 
> ...


A ref trainer at every game?  Where are you going to find that many experienced referees?  

They do have referee mentors.  They do their best, but they can’t be everywhere.  It’s more about guidance than removal.

After all, imagine what would happen if they threw out every ref who makes a bad call.  Are you really OK with paying $1500 for a 3 game season?  

Just accept bad calls and bad non-calls as part of the game, the same as you accept bad shots and bad passes.  If it really bugs you, take the class and go help.


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## timbuck (Nov 19, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> I have refereed games (center and AR) …it is not an easy task. I make it a habit of not saying anything to the refs. It’s pointless. For me, refs are the third team on the field.
> 
> The Ref issue comes down  to lack of mentorship and auditing.
> 
> ...


Premier League, La Liga, International Competition, etc all have issues with bad calls. They now use VAR to check and they still mess things up.
I don't think we should expect a weekend warrior referee to get every call right.  We certainly shouldn't be arguing things like which way a throw-in goes.
And soccer is a contact sport.  Fouls will get missed.  Things that don't look like fouls will get called.  Sometimes the better team loses (In soccer more often than any other sport).

Sit back. Watch your kid play. Let your coach deal with on-field issues.  Drive your kid home and tell them you are proud of how he/she played. Proud of how he/she kept their cool when they got unnecessarily fouled.  If you lost because of a crappy penalty call-  Tell them that their team should have done something during the other 85 minutes of the game to take it out of the referees hand.  If your backline/gk made a howler of a mistake that cost your team a goal-  Remind your kid about the 9 shots his team had that either went right at the keeper or sailed 20 feet over the cross bar.


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## Jar!23 (Nov 19, 2021)

I


dad4 said:


> A ref trainer at every game?  Where are you going to find that many experienced referees?
> 
> They do have referee mentors.  They do their best, but they can’t be everywhere.  It’s more about guidance than removal.
> 
> ...


 I had a parent once ask me what can be done about the horrible refs.  I said in reply “become a ref!”.  He slinked off.


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## espola (Nov 19, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Still a kid.  You’re in front of the coaches.  You can easily back up 10-20 feet or more while the coach tries to reign in the player and the center explains what the red card is for.
> 
> To watch the video, the teammates tried to do the right thing and keep the offending player out of it.


The video, as edited by the TV station, doesn't show the confrontation at all.


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## espola (Nov 19, 2021)

watfly said:


> I dont know? What kind of circumstances would prevent a ref from walking away?  I dont think protecting your personal space is justification for aggressivelly touching a minor. Im pretty sure that the LOTG dont have a "stand your ground" provision for refs.  Maybe their is evidence that the kid tried to assault the ref?  My opinion would be different if he physically attacked the ref.  Im basing my opinion on what has been reported, which is quite often not accurate.
> 
> Like I said before 3 wrongs dont make a right.


Now you are up to "aggressively touching"?


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## Curious (Nov 19, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Premier League, La Liga, International Competition, etc all have issues with bad calls. They now use VAR to check and they still mess things up.
> I don't think we should expect a weekend warrior referee to get every call right.  We certainly shouldn't be arguing things like which way a throw-in goes.
> And soccer is a contact sport.  Fouls will get missed.  Things that don't look like fouls will get called.  Sometimes the better team loses (In soccer more often than any other sport).
> 
> Sit back. Watch your kid play. Let your coach deal with on-field issues.  Drive your kid home and tell them you are proud of how he/she played. Proud of how he/she kept their cool when they got unnecessarily fouled.  If you lost because of a crappy penalty call-  Tell them that their team should have done something during the other 85 minutes of the game to take it out of the referees hand.  If your backline/gk made a howler of a mistake that cost your team a goal-  Remind you kid about the 9 shots his team had that either went right at the keeper or sailed 20 feet over the cross bar.


We had a game several weeks ago that had the potential to turn ugly, but due to the example set by our coach it ended well.  When we arrived for the older flight 1 game we were told there were no refs so it could only be a scrimmage.  About 10 min later while the players were still warming up a ref arrived, I saw him speaking to a parent of the home team so assume this parent must have known the ref, gave him a call and he got to the field in minutes.  This ref wasn’t planning on referring a game that morning but was needed and came even though he knew it was an older team and there would be no ARs, thank you ref.  Early in the game there was an offside call our players didn’t agree with, as soon as they expressed this our coach shouted out to them “Have respect, he is on his own”.  Immediately the players settled down.  Later in the game a goal was called off for the player being offside, even though this was on a throw in. As soon as the ref blew the whistle you could tell he knew he had screwed up but as the whistle came a fraction of a second before the ball crossed the line there was nothing he could do.  There was certainly grumbling by the players and spectators, but I think our coach’s earlier reminder to show respect kept it to just grumbling.  I believe a coach can have a great influence on the attitude of a team if he/she consistently leads by example.  By the way we ended up winning the game and I do realize that it is much easier to be forgiving when you are ahead but I still think our coach deserves credit for setting an example of accepting this ref was on his own and mistakes would be made.


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## Grace T. (Nov 19, 2021)

dad4 said:


> A ref trainer at every game?  Where are you going to find that many experienced referees?
> 
> They do have referee mentors.  They do their best, but they can’t be everywhere.  It’s more about guidance than removal.
> 
> ...


Particularly as the kids get older and move up in level, I think the parents get there (for the most part, certain organizations excepted).  Again, though, the 4 times I've seen meltdowns post COVID has been when player safety has been triggered.  Doesn't excuse the behavior, but that's in my experience where it tends to go ballistic.

With a labor shortage everywhere not just in refereeing, if you start suspending the bad ones, and want to attract news ones, you will have to offer substantial more.


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## Grace T. (Nov 19, 2021)

Curious said:


> We had a game several weeks ago that had the potential to turn ugly, but due to the example set by our coach it ended well.  When we arrived for the older flight 1 game we were told there were no refs so it could only be a scrimmage.  About 10 min later while the players were still warming up a ref arrived, I saw him speaking to a parent of the home team so assume this parent must have known the ref, gave him a call and he got to the field in minutes.  This ref wasn’t planning on referring a game that morning but was needed and came even though he knew it was an older team and there would be no ARs, thank you ref.  Early in the game there was an offside call our players didn’t agree with, as soon as they expressed this our coach shouted out to them “Have respect, he is on his own”.  Immediately the players settled down.  Later in the game a goal was called off for the player being offside, even though this was on a throw in. As soon as the ref blew the whistle you could tell he knew he had screwed up but as the whistle came a fraction of a second before the ball crossed the line there was nothing he could do.  There was certainly grumbling by the players and spectators, but I think our coach’s earlier reminder to show respect kept it to just grumbling.  I believe a coach can have a great influence on the attitude of a team if he/she consistently leads by example.  By the way we ended up winning the game and I do realize that it is much easier to be forgiving when you are ahead but I still think our coach deserves credit for setting an example of accepting this ref was on his own and mistakes would be made.


Great point, and coaches should absolutely be doing this.  But that's not usually what sets incidents like this off.  Several hard tackles from behind that go unwhistled and uncarded, if the coaches aren't chirping, the parents will.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 19, 2021)

[/QUOTE]

Quality of refereeing and Lack of Ref accountability.


dad4 said:


> A ref trainer at every game?  Where are you going to find that many experienced referees?
> 
> They do have referee mentors.  They do their best, but they can’t be everywhere.  It’s more about guidance than removal.
> 
> ...


I agree you can’t have one at every game but nothing is being done now. A Master referee showing up unannounced could lead to accountability!

Some refs seem to live in their own little fiefdom  on the rules of the game. Is it soccer when refs can’t maintain a certain level of competency? Do kids give up on soccer due to the incompetence of adults?

The issue continues to be a lack of central control and accountability for refs.

Parents can be idiots but are we blaming the symptom and not looking at the root cause.


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## Grace T. (Nov 19, 2021)

Quality of refereeing and Lack of Ref accountability.

I agree you can’t have one at every game but nothing is being done now. A Master referee showing up unannounced could lead to accountability!

Some refs seem to live in their own little fiefdom  on the rules of the game. Is it soccer when refs can’t maintain a certain level of competency? Do kids give up on soccer due to the incompetence of adults?

The issue continues to be a lack of central control and accountability for refs.

Parents can be idiots but are we blaming the symptom and not looking at the root cause.
[/QUOTE]

Sure but better refs and getting master refs to show up unannounced, plus attend all that training isn't free.  Don't we always complain about pay to play here?

You can have your soccer developmental, cheap to play, or competitive.  Pick 2.


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## SFR (Nov 19, 2021)

Quality of refereeing andv.

I agree you can’t have one at every game but nothing is being done now. A Master referee showing up unannounced could lead to accountability!

Some refs seem to live in their own little fiefdom  on the rules of the game. Is it soccer when refs can’t maintain a certain level of competency? Do kids give up on soccer due to the incompetence of adults?

The issue continues to be a lack of central control and accountability for refs.

Parents can be idiots but are we blaming the symptom and not looking at the root cause.
[/QUOTE]

So, you're saying that the root cause is the referee competency meaning if the call is right then there wouldn't be any objections from players, coaches, and parents. Right the way, I will tell you that in many cases no matter what the call or no call is one side still wouldn't like it. Very obvious call for a tripping or hand ball or offside and etc. for one side is not so obvious for other side.
In my opinion, if clubs would work with coaches, players, and parents on setting the expectation on what to expect and how to react to or not to react on situations when they think it was a bad call or no call. And, I totally understand that no calls, sometimes, is the big issue for safety of the players and it might be the starting point of those crazy case scenarios. 
I would agree with you that improving quality in youth refereeing will help with the situation but still officiating is not the root cause.
So, let me ask you another question. If it would be up to you what would you do to improve the quality of refereeing and what resources you would use? And I am asking this seriously. I hear a lot about lack of Ref accountability and some refs are so bad (which is true) but what would you do if you're in charge and you have tons of game to cover?


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## Jar!23 (Nov 19, 2021)

The club can send referee evaluations to their ref assignor so that the assignor can give some feedback to the ref.  I don’t know it it makes a difference now with the ref shortage but that’s the only avenue I know to give constructive feedback.  I have heard a ref assignor say that they won’t assign certain refs or will assign certain refs based on what they know about the ref, level of play, club, etc.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 19, 2021)

SFR said:


> So, let me ask you another question. If it would be up to you what would you do to improve the quality of refereeing and what resources you would use?


I have seen refs in 2021 do a drop ball between two opposing players like it’s 2015. . There is a problem.

i already stated what needs to be done
A central Master  referee designation.  3-4 guys and gals visit NorCal and Calsouth games. Can’t visit all games but the progression of visits will send a message.   Inspecting the games , mentoring the refs before and after the game. Checking their list for whose been naughty or nice. $25 -$50 in extra club fees to help protect the game seems small price to pay.  Right now it’s the Wild West.


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## NorCalDad (Nov 19, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> I have seen refs in 2021 do a drop ball between two opposing players like it’s 2015. . There is a problem.
> 
> i already stated what needs to be done
> A central Master  referee designation.  3-4 guys and gals visit NorCal and Calsouth games. Can’t visit all games but the progression of visits will send a message.   Inspecting the games , mentoring the refs before and after the game. Checking their list for whose been naughty or nice. $25 -$50 in extra club fees to help protect the game seems small price to pay.  Right now it’s the Wild West.


I do think there has been a drop off in referring quality this year.  I attribute this to the influx of new refs and the drop off of more experienced ones.  We had a ref not understand offsides between a punt vs a goal kick.  Bummer, but whatever.  I worry more about the teeing up of red card scenarios that @Grace T. pointed out.  Not being able to keep a game under control can have some seriously bad outcomes.


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## dad4 (Nov 19, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> I have seen refs in 2021 do a drop ball between two opposing players like it’s 2015. . There is a problem.
> 
> i already stated what needs to be done
> A central Master  referee designation.  3-4 guys and gals visit NorCal and Calsouth games. Can’t visit all games but the progression of visits will send a message.   Inspecting the games , mentoring the refs before and after the game. Checking their list for whose been naughty or nice. $25 -$50 in extra club fees to help protect the game seems small price to pay.  Right now it’s the Wild West.


Yes, there is a problem.

Take the class.   Get out there and help.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 20, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Yes, there is a problem.
> 
> Take the class.   Get out there and help.


Won’t solve it.personal responsibility isn’t a remedy for corporation greed and incompetence


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 20, 2021)

http://imgur.com/a/cdEsLMr


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## espola (Nov 20, 2021)

From referee pages at bigsocccer.com --









						Bad stories
					

You guys are making me sad ... but also a little bit more determined on my almost-final decision not to go back out on the pitch next year.  :( sadly,...




					www.bigsoccer.com


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## dad4 (Nov 20, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> Won’t solve it.personal responsibility isn’t a remedy for corporation greed and incompetence


Corporate greed?

Referees fall into two categories:
1- kids learning a first job.
2- middle aged guys who give up their weekend so kids can play.

Be glad they are willing to do it at all.  

And, if you could do a better job, then please do.


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## timbuck (Nov 20, 2021)

I think more parents should take a basic referee class so they at least know the rules (laws).  A lot of griping would go away if parents understood handling, offside, advantage and referee discretion.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 20, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I think more parents should take a basic referee class so they at least know the rules (laws).  A lot of griping would go away if parents understood handling, offside, advantage and referee discretion.


Clubs have a responsibility too.. the league has a responsibility to protect the game.

not everything is the parents fault. It’s like greed , club complacency and doing the bare minimum in standards are ok as long as we can blame the other kids parents.

Hold your leagues accountable! Stop blaming parents for everything!


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## SFR (Nov 22, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> Clubs have a responsibility too.. the league has a responsibility to protect the game.
> 
> not everything is the parents fault. It’s like greed , club complacency and doing the bare minimum in standards are ok as long as we can blame the other kids parents.
> 
> Hold your leagues accountable! Stop blaming parents for everything!


Poor parents/spectators/coaches/clubs. They are the real victims of bad officiating. Those bad teenagers who took the referee classes and spend their weekends time refereeing games are totally unprofessional. Instead of going to school and do other activities they should spend all their time learning the rules and go over video clips of their games minute by minute, and also learn from real professionals who do games in MLS, Premiere, and other leagues. After all they have decided to be a referee, right. And those adults who, somehow, decided that they can ref; what they are doing there. They should stay with their families and spend some quality time with spouses and kids. We need real pros to ref our kids games and if it will require more money we have no problems to add extra $50 for our season fees. After all our kids deserve better officiating. 

Give me a break!!!
And if you that upset with officiating then send your kid to get a referee license and/or you can do better than that as go with your kid and get a referee license and start refereeing games.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 22, 2021)

SFR said:


> Poor parents/spectators/coaches/clubs. They are the real victims of bad officiating. Those bad teenagers who took the referee classes and spend their weekends time refereeing games are totally unprofessional. Instead of going to school and do other activities they should spend all their time learning the rules and go over video clips of their games minute by minute, and also learn from real professionals who do games in MLS, Premiere, and other leagues. After all they have decided to be a referee, right. And those adults who, somehow, decided that they can ref; what they are doing there. They should stay with their families and spend some quality time with spouses and kids. We need real pros to ref our kids games and if it will require more money we have no problems to add extra $50 for our season fees. After all our kids deserve better officiating.
> 
> Give me a break!!!
> And if you that upset with officiating then send your kid to get a referee license and/or you can do better than that as go with your kid and get a referee license and start refereeing games.


https://contenthub-static.grammarly.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/verklempt-meaning.gif


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## GoldenGate (Nov 22, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> Clubs have a responsibility too.. the league has a responsibility to protect the game.
> 
> not everything is the parents fault. It’s like greed , club complacency and doing the bare minimum in standards are ok as long as we can blame the other kids parents.
> 
> Hold your leagues accountable! Stop blaming parents for everything!


Absolutely!  I'm sure this dad was paying so much in monthly dues that the club should have hired professional referees, especially in this particular epic matchup of children playing a lower level regional league in which the perp's team was in the bottom half of the table.  It is completely the fault of the club that hired the refs that this father assaulted a minor.  In fact, this is why it is so important to pay for the finest, most competent refs for important matches like this. Either that, or maybe daddy should have understood this was just children playing a meaningless child's game, and that his boy is a little shit who did not fall far from the tree.

Thank goodness the entire team has been suspended for 7 months. This kind of bs doesn't happen unless it has been enabled by shitbag parents, coaches and players for months.  Good riddance to all of them.


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## whatithink (Nov 22, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Corporate greed?
> 
> Referees fall into two categories:
> 1- kids learning a first job.
> ...


Agree. The expectation of quality refereeing in youth soccer is pretty bizarre TBH. Elite referees in the EPL with the benefit of VA still fup regularly, or make decisions that are then argued over because it could have gone another way ... maybe.

Just be happy they are there. There was a tournament scheduled recently in TX (San Antonio I think) that was cancelled pretty much at the last minute ... due to lack of referees. Several teams from AZ were going and now their parents have plenty of airline credits.

I've planned to sign my kids up for the referee course several times, and then I go to a couple of games and am not so inclined. They don't need that crap, even if it is easy money -  and they both know the rules and see more on the field than any of the parents.

It's not just a US problem though - see my link to the refs in Ireland recently. I do think there is a direct link between how the pros and every player level down behave towards referees AND their coaches through all those levels, and how that then gets replicated in youth soccer. Its the opposite in Rugby and look at how that works, from the most elite level teams & coaches, down to the kids starting out and how they are told (and shown) how to behave.


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## espola (Nov 22, 2021)

On November 17, 2021, our office received the case from the Roseville Police Department after they concluded their investigation into the incident that occurred on October 30.

On November 19, 2021, after a thorough review of the case, the Placer County District Attorney’s Office charged Vicente Robles, 34, of Sacramento, with a violation of Penal Code Section 243.8 – Battery on a Sports Official. The arraignment date is set for December 8, 2021 in Department 30 of the Placer County Superior Court.

Morgan Gire
District Attorney
Placer County


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## supercell (Nov 23, 2021)

espola said:


> On November 17, 2021, our office received the case from the Roseville Police Department after they concluded their investigation into the incident that occurred on October 30.
> 
> On November 19, 2021, after a thorough review of the case, the Placer County District Attorney’s Office charged Vicente Robles, 34, of Sacramento, with a violation of Penal Code Section 243.8 – Battery on a Sports Official. The arraignment date is set for December 8, 2021 in Department 30 of the Placer County Superior Court.
> 
> ...


Thanks Espola for that. Just curious, what sort of sentence/fines would that charge bring?


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## espola (Nov 23, 2021)

supercell said:


> Thanks Espola for that. Just curious, what sort of sentence/fines would that charge bring?


"...punishable by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars ($2,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment. "









						California Code, Penal Code - PEN § 243.8 | FindLaw
					

California Penal Code PEN CA PENAL  Section 243.8. Read the code on FindLaw




					codes.findlaw.com


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## Grace T. (Nov 23, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Corporate greed?
> 
> Referees fall into two categories:
> 1- kids learning a first job.
> ...


You missed one.  At least in SoCal, particularly in coast, many of the referees are working class Latino stiffs.  They did it to earn the extra (relatively tax free) cash and because if they worked a full shift it would be more profitable for the day than a regular weekend job.  When I was reffing, my usual crew was a CR (my assigned mentor) who was a custodian during the week and who would give up watching her own kids to earn the cash (her sister would usually baby sit) and a guy who was an electrician.


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## Grace T. (Nov 23, 2021)

SFR said:


> Poor parents/spectators/coaches/clubs. They are the real victims of bad officiating. Those bad teenagers who took the referee classes and spend their weekends time refereeing games are totally unprofessional. Instead of going to school and do other activities they should spend all their time learning the rules and go over video clips of their games minute by minute, and also learn from real professionals who do games in MLS, Premiere, and other leagues. After all they have decided to be a referee, right. And those adults who, somehow, decided that they can ref; what they are doing there. They should stay with their families and spend some quality time with spouses and kids. We need real pros to ref our kids games and if it will require more money we have no problems to add extra $50 for our season fees. After all our kids deserve better officiating.
> 
> Give me a break!!!
> And if you that upset with officiating then send your kid to get a referee license and/or you can do better than that as go with your kid and get a referee license and start refereeing games.


with the drift up in the minimum wage recently, other opportunities have become more appealing to referees.  There are a lot of people who do it because they love the game...but they also need the cash.  With the opportunity cost of reffing rising, and with the environment to ref becoming poorer, like any market you'll get fewer refs and fewer good refs....if you want good referees and want to be able to cut the poor ones, you have to pay them more than they could make in other settings

The other issues with bad officiating is not the refs, but with the training.  Again, the issue where games go out of control is when the referees don't call the really bad fouls.  The organizations need to tell the refs to call them.  If you have to err, it's better to err on the side of whistling too much than not at all.


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## dad4 (Nov 23, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You missed one.  At least in SoCal, particularly in coast, many of the referees are working class Latino stiffs.  They did it to earn the extra (relatively tax free) cash and because if they worked a full shift it would be more profitable for the day than a regular weekend job.  When I was reffing, my usual crew was a CR (my assigned mentor) who was a custodian during the week and who would give up watching her own kids to earn the cash (her sister would usually baby sit) and a guy who was an electrician.


In the bay area, we’ve forced most of those guys out into the central valley.  You still see them at tournaments as travel refs.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 23, 2021)

The whole referee system in the leagues is a classic example of poor regulation from the top.  No accountability and deflect the outrage from the root cause.  The clubs and leagues need to manage the referees It’s a burden to the clubs and leagues.
I have seen refs get in the face of kids and threaten them, I have overheard  refs make fun of kids on the fields.   Until the club and league hold the standards higher this will continue.

How may refs are filing a 1099? Ask that question. It will go real quiet on the field.


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## Grace T. (Nov 23, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> The whole referee system in the leagues is a classic example of poor regulation from the top.  No accountability and deflect the outrage from the root cause.  The clubs and leagues need to manage the referees It’s a burden to the clubs and leagues.
> I have seen refs get in the face of kids and threaten them, I have overheard  refs make fun of kids on the fields.   Until the club and league hold the standards higher this will continue.
> 
> How may refs are filing a 1099? Ask that question. It will go real quiet on the field.


All true (I've seen the same) but there's poor regulation because the leagues are afraid that if they crack down or require extra training they'll lose refs in an already tight market, and hiring supervisors costs money.

It's also true that parent and coach behavior in recent years have gotten out of control.

It's also true that the higher up you go in leagues/levels/age, the better the refs.


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## warrior49 (Nov 23, 2021)

toucan said:


> Ahh ... This brings back memories.  For a short time I was a contract attorney for the Placer County Public Defender's office.  I defended Preliminary Hearings in the Roseville annex of the court.  If this had happened back then, I would have gotten Mr. Robles out of jail, and back on the fields where he belongs.


He belongs on a treadmill, not soccer field sideline


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## SFR (Nov 23, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> The whole referee system in the leagues is a classic example of poor regulation from the top.  No accountability and deflect the outrage from the root cause.  The clubs and leagues need to manage the referees It’s a burden to the clubs and leagues.
> I have seen refs get in the face of kids and threaten them, I have overheard  refs make fun of kids on the fields.   Until the club and league hold the standards higher this will continue.
> 
> How may refs are filing a 1099? Ask that question. It will go real quiet on the field.


I am officiating games in Bay Area for almost 7 years. My 2 kids play soccer. Sometimes, we come and watch games with our friend's kids. I never observed behavior when referee would threaten kids or make fun of them. I don't even understand how it could be.
Sometimes, you can see a referee, after a whistle, come and talk to a player addressing some dirty or dangers play and warn them not to do it again and that next time they can get yellow or red card. Is that what you call 'threatening player'?

Regarding filing a 1099. Do you know that, again, in Bay Area, referees don't get cash on hands anymore and they have to file W-9 in other to get paid. And if a referee get more than $600 in a year then it's going to be reported as non-employment income to the IRS.
So, please, don't say what you don't know.
And even if in some places referees still get some cash on hands you still don't say they don't report it to IRS as you wouldn't know that.

And, if you really want to address some issue with bad officiating you are aware of or witnessed while your kid was playing or etc. then please do it. Contact referee org like http://www.norcalreferees.com/contact_us/. Trust me every complain towards bad referee behavior or bad officiating will be investigated. And regardless of the shortage of referees they won't hesitate to address the issue in the right way.


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 23, 2021)

SFR said:


> I am officiating games in Bay Area for almost 7 years. My 2 kids play soccer. Sometimes, we come and watch games with our friend's kids. I never observed behavior when referee would threaten kids or make fun of them. I don't even understand how it could be.
> Sometimes, you can see a referee, after a whistle, come and talk to a player addressing some dirty or dangers play and warn them not to do it again and that next time they can get yellow or red card. Is that what you call 'threatening player'?
> 
> Regarding filing a 1099. Do you know that, again, in Bay Area, referees don't get cash on hands anymore and they have to file W-9 in other to get paid. And if a referee get more than $600 in a year then it's going to be reported as non-employment income to the IRS.
> ...


Welll most Soccer players in my area don’t have that liberal Marin county money to afford good referees..So let me tell you what I know 

Refs saying they are not going to finish the game until they get paid at half time… Cash transactions on the field.

Being from the Bay Area I guess you can afford the good refs..


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## SFR (Nov 23, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> Welll most Soccer players in my area don’t have that liberal Marin county money to afford good referees..So let me tell you what I know
> 
> Refs saying they are not going to finish the game until they get paid at half time… Cash transactions on the field.
> 
> Being from the Bay Area I guess you can afford the good refs..


I like the word "liberal".
It's very related to our soccer conversation.

Personally, I don't think there is a difference in quality of officiating between counties. Throughout my kids tournaments I've been in many different places and I can assure you referees are missing calls everywhere in the same way including the "liberal Marin county" (by the way, I am from East Bay).
But, In my opinion, it's up to clubs to make the difference in rising ugly situations in youth sport.
Working with parents and *especially *with coaches on what are the norms would help to bring those accidents to a very minimal. If a coach, before every single game, find two minutes go and talk to parents asking them remain calm when certain situation during the game can arise. And promise parents that every single case with bad officiating will be addressed and let them know the outcomes of it would really work.
And if a coach, before every single game, will go and ask parents to stay civil I am pretty sure coach himself/herself will be obligated to stay within the boundaries


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## GoldenGate (Nov 23, 2021)

Soccermaverick said:


> Welll most Soccer players in my area don’t have that liberal Marin county money to afford good referees..So let me tell you what I know
> 
> Refs saying they are not going to finish the game until they get paid at half time… Cash transactions on the field.
> 
> Being from the Bay Area I guess you can afford the good refs..


Given that you're victim blaming refs and whining about a few bucks, I'd say it's prudent of any ref to demand payment from you before you can dash.


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## Grace T. (Nov 23, 2021)

SFR said:


> I like the word "liberal".
> It's very related to our soccer conversation.
> 
> Personally, I don't think there is a difference in quality of officiating between counties. Throughout my kids tournaments I've been in many different places and I can assure you referees are missing calls everywhere in the same way including the "liberal Marin county" (by the way, I am from East Bay).
> ...


Part of the problem with this is there are a group of coaches out there which are uncivil (I had one coach on a game I wasn't scheduled for, didn't take pay, and was just helping out mock me for a ball he disagreed went over the line...he even yelled out to his kid: did that go completely over the line; another went after an older AR for not being able to keep up with the last defender line; countless times have heard even good coaches arguing for handballs and for fouls).  Coaches want to win.  We've put a lot of pressure on them to win due to consequences from pro/rel.  They are going to argue with the refs and sometimes that's going to get out of hand.

This isn't an easy problem to fix (otherwise it would be fixed).  There are some refs out there that don't know how to control the game and these incidents happen when parents are concerned about player safety (and yes I have seen bad behavior from some refs towards players....it's very rare...but I've seen it happen, particularly in the lower levels.).    There are some coaches (including otherwise good coaches) that take it too far, especially when a win is needed and on the line.  There are parents behaving badly out there too, and also that don't understand the laws of the game (my favorite anecdote: my father called for an offside call when my kid was playing U10 on a throw in despite my having asked him to shut it because yelling at the ref is part of the past time in the old country....the ref correctly embarrassed my dad by pointing out to him "no offside in a throw in sir"....my father did this despite having played semi-pro ball in the old country).


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## GoldenGate (Nov 23, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You missed one.  At least in SoCal, particularly in coast, many of the referees are working class Latino stiffs.  They did it to earn the extra (relatively tax free) cash and because if they worked a full shift it would be more profitable for the day than a regular weekend job.  When I was reffing, my usual crew was a CR (my assigned mentor) who was a custodian during the week and who would give up watching her own kids to earn the cash (her sister would usually baby sit) and a guy who was an electrician.


What?!? You actually have held a job?


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## espola (Nov 24, 2021)

Sacramento soccer dad seen on video assaulting referee says 'parent instinct took over'
					

The referee says "it felt like a train hit me."




					www.kcra.com


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## Soccermaverick (Nov 24, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> What?!? You actually have held a job?


Golden Gate Boy:   The perfect comment for you

Archer: What are you hourly?


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## focomoso (Nov 25, 2021)

watfly said:


> That would require a major mindset change by both players and refs.  I watched some of a rugby match the other day and the ref was mic'd up.  It was fascinating to hear how the ref was in constant communication with the players.  My impression is that rugby refs see themselves as facilitators of the game, whereas soccer refs see themselves as judge of the game.  There seems to be a mutual respect in rugby, not so much in soccer.


I was watching an Aussie rules game on ESPN and the umpire was mic'd as well and a player took something of a dive near the goal and the ref says, "Hey Bob, you make my job harder when you do that," and Bob goes, "Sorry ump, I slipped." It was a great moment. First, the umpire knows every player by name (for better or worse), but I thought that was a much better way to handle that than the very public "stern talking to" you see from soccer refs at the top levels. And by the way, it wasn't a crazy, obvious rolling around dive you see in soccer. No self-respecting footy player would do that. He took a mild hit and slipped. Got right up, apologized and got back to it.


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