# Ref Shortage



## timbuck (May 2, 2021)

Not here to complain.  Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once.  A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.

SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.

Guy last night was on his 3rd game as a solo.  That's about 5 hours running up and down the field.  He was at least 50 years old and in decent shape.  Dude deserves the full amount for being out there to make sure we are able to play.

I'd expect to see ref fees go up for the Fall season if we want to see 3 man crews out there.


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## RedCard (May 2, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Not here to complain.  Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
> So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once.  A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.
> 
> SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.
> ...


Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...


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## Carlsbad7 (May 2, 2021)

Youth Soccer should take a lesson from Youth Baseball.

In youth baseball leagues noticed that refs are getting harder and harder to find. (And older)

To address they created a funnel for 5-18 yrs olds to function as refs, older umps/refs are generally paired up with younger ones to give training and assistance, (the younger refs are put into a position of leadership on making calls. Older refs just sit back watch and provide guidence). They pay $25 to $50 a game.

One other key difference is each teams coach walks up with the refs before the game and introduces them to the parents. 

The effect of everything above is that parents are much calmer. No matter the call what kind of jerk is going to go off on a 6 year old? Also I think the kids like have umpires their own age making calls.

It's interesting that a 6yr old can make $200+ a weekend calling games.


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## Grace T. (May 2, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Youth Soccer should take a lesson from Youth Baseball.
> 
> In youth baseball leagues noticed that refs are getting harder and harder to find. (And older)
> 
> ...


Our local ayso limits this to 12 and up because of the abuse of refs for stupid ayso rec games. Don’t know if it’s National or state policy.  The teen refs I’ve had were actually better than the parent volunteers (who do stuff like call offside on corners and throw ins).  The teen refs play soccer and at least understand the rules. My kid is going to be an assistant for his service project at school and I’ll be his cr.

 I recently heard one team (mostly latinos) call a 12 year old African American player the n word and the parents were also joining in the bullying. Ref claimed he didn’t hear it even though parents on the other side did. If this is acceptable behavior by parents/players in soccer, though, I still worry about allowing him to go in there.  I wouldn’t allow him to ar unless I was the cr and only in the heavily monitored environment of our local ayso whic has multiple ref coordinators checking out the field and security present.


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## electrichead72 (May 2, 2021)

My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.

One day our schedules were busy and I had to do a game away from her. Parents and coaches gave her a hard time, yelling and screaming about the game, she stuck it out to the end but came off in tears after the game. That was the last game she ever refed. We reported it, but nothing came of it.

It's nice to see the kids doing it, but parents and coaches today can be such garbage cans that it's probably better to keep the young refs out of it without an adult there to take care of any problems.


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## Eagle33 (May 3, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Not here to complain.  Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
> So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once.  A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.
> 
> SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.
> ...


Shortage comes from too many games being played at the same time. 2-3 extra new leagues plus HS games and college Spring games. Refs can only do so much of those. Many refs after a year of doing nothing found something else to do or just said f it. For younger refs, they don't like all the abuse and much rather work somewhere else. Paying more for games won't do the trick.


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## Overtime (May 3, 2021)

RedCard said:


> Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...


Same with G02/03 games this weekend.  Games get really chippy and sloppy with 1 ref at this age and would rather play one game with a full crew than 2 like this.


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## JumboJack (May 3, 2021)

RedCard said:


> Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...


Even if he had asked for club linesmen they are only allowed to signal if the ball crosses the touch or goal line. They can’t call offside or fouls. It still would have been ugly.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 3, 2021)

electrichead72 said:


> My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.
> 
> One day our schedules were busy and I had to do a game away from her. Parents and coaches gave her a hard time, yelling and screaming about the game, she stuck it out to the end but came off in tears after the game. That was the last game she ever refed. We reported it, but nothing came of it.
> 
> It's nice to see the kids doing it, but parents and coaches today can be such garbage cans that it's probably better to keep the young refs out of it without an adult there to take care of any problems.


The problem with the current way soccer is setup is that for refs to discipline parents is that it's all or nothing. What I mean by this is to stop over the top parent behavior refs give a yellow card to the parent/parents (or coach) then if things continue to escalate a red card. At this point a decision needs to be made if play could continue or a forfeit relayed.

I suggest that instead of a forfeit (which makes the ref the bad guy + hurts the kids) ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game. To a parent / coach this is worse than having a game canceled because you have to move schedules around last minute to make it work. Also this would allow refs to bring out the zebras that don't put up with crap.

Only downside of a reschedule punishment is that teams might try to use it as a tactic.


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## Eagle33 (May 3, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> The problem with the current way soccer is setup is that for refs to discipline parents is that it's all or nothing. What I mean by this is to stop over the top parent behavior refs give a yellow card to the parent/parents (or coach) then if things continue to escalate a red card. At this point a decision needs to be made if play could continue or a forfeit relayed.
> 
> I suggest that instead of a forfeit (which makes the ref the bad guy + hurts the kids) ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game. To a parent / coach this is worse than having a game canceled because you have to move schedules around last minute to make it work. Also this would allow refs to bring out the zebras that don't put up with crap.
> 
> Only downside of a reschedule punishment is that teams might try to use it as a tactic.


This is not how it works. Refs don't decide outcome of the game - league do. Refs can only abandon the game.
We have a shortage of refs and you suggesting to have another game? What a great idea!


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## notintheface (May 3, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game


With scheduling the way it is, this isn't really a viable solution. Coach conflicts, parents, etc.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 3, 2021)

Eagle33 said:


> This is not how it works. Refs don't decide outcome of the game - league do. Refs can only abandon the game.
> We have a shortage of refs and you suggesting to have another game? What a great idea!


Yea, I see what you mean. It's not logical.

I was proposing a way for Refs to not be the bad guy + punish parents / coaches in a way that will cause more pain than just ending the game.

The problem with just ending the game crazy parents / coaches view the ref as the bad guy. When they should be looking inward at themselves.

Delaying/replaying the game takes pressure off the refs, cools off the parents/coaches, + allows for more senior level refs to get involved.

This type of action would only need to occur once or twice before parents start getting frustrated at the crazy parent / coach and solve the problem internally.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 3, 2021)

notintheface said:


> With scheduling the way it is, this isn't really a viable solution. Coach conflicts, parents, etc.


This is the point + expected.

Coach + parents will need to forfeit themselves because they can't attend the rescheduled event.

The parent / coach that triggered the reschedule becomes the bad guy not the ref.


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## notintheface (May 3, 2021)

electrichead72 said:


> My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.


I hate to say this but kids should not be doing ref duties unless it's for those Ulittle 3v3 no-keeper "matches" where the ref is really doing more coaching than anything.

There are far, far, far too many abusive parents out there who howl like crazy and cannot control their outbursts at all regardless of the target. You could stick Jesus Christ in a yellow shirt and these parents would be the ones screaming to nail him back up.


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## notintheface (May 3, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Coach + parents will need to forfeit themselves because they can't attend the rescheduled event.


Again, at that point the real punishment is the forfeit-- all you're proposing is a CYA solution to a forfeit.

If a parent is becoming so disruptive, send the parent off. All it takes is one time for their kid to be embarrassed in front of the team for that parent to -- hopefully! -- learn their lesson. Remember -- 99% of the disruptive parents are people who are living vicariously through their kids. The moment that the kid sees their parent sent off and the rest of the team gives them shit about it, that parent should (should!) straight up really damned quick.


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## timbuck (May 3, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Yea, I see what you mean. It's not logical.
> 
> I was proposing a way for Refs to not be the bad guy + punish parents / coaches in a way that will cause more pain than just ending the game.
> 
> ...


What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball.  If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick.  If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.


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## Eagle33 (May 3, 2021)

timbuck said:


> What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball.  If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick.  If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.


LOTG is clear that only Players, coaches and referees are part of the game. Says nothing about parents.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 3, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Again, at that point the real punishment is the forfeit-- all you're proposing is a CYA solution to a forfeit.
> 
> If a parent is becoming so disruptive, send the parent off. All it takes is one time for their kid to be embarrassed in front of the team for that parent to -- hopefully! -- learn their lesson. Remember -- 99% of the disruptive parents are people who are living vicariously through their kids. The moment that the kid sees their parent sent off and the rest of the team gives them shit about it, that parent should (should!) straight up really damned quick.


100% correct. 

But, there's a slight wrinkle in that the forfeit isn't the Refs choice/fault it's the teams/coaches fault for not showing up at the rescheduled event.

The Refs have proposed an alternative to forfeiting the game + are working with the teams/coaches to keep playing.

This doubles the pressure on the parent/parents/coach that's causing problems. And completely absolves Refs from being the bad guy.

Eventually if the bad behavior continues other teams will hear about it + won't want to play them b/c it will mean a reschedule.


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## Grace T. (May 3, 2021)

timbuck said:


> What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball.  If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick.  If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.


Part of the problem is because soccer is such a low scoring game, and because it's all about the "mistakes" players make on the field, every correction swings outcomes of the game wildly.  It's why the PK system is somewhat broken, because awarding a PK is almost like awarding an automatic goal unless the striker makes a mistake.  

Similarly, it's the problem with cards issued to control the game.  The referees are instructed to not harm the flow of play too much by calling too many fouls, and to not issue very many cards particularly with younger players in the youth game.  Red cards in particular come with severe suspension penalties.  So refs are left with the choice of do nothing or go nuclear, knowing a sanction could severely impact the game and/or the players.  It's why refs can lose control of the game, because of failure to stomp out some behavior early on leads the players to think they can get away with it or take matters into their own hands.

So there isn't really any easy technical foul that can be awarded beyond a drop ball (which would be hated by all since it's not really a punishment and stops the flow of the game).  For the youngers, most of them can't get the corner kick into the box so it wouldn't make much of an impact anyways....for the olders it could really swing the game.


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## timbuck (May 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Part of the problem is because soccer is such a low scoring game, and because it's all about the "mistakes" players make on the field, every correction swings outcomes of the game wildly.  It's why the PK system is somewhat broken, because awarding a PK is almost like awarding an automatic goal unless the striker makes a mistake.
> 
> Similarly, it's the problem with cards issued to control the game.  The referees are instructed to not harm the flow of play too much by calling too many fouls, and to not issue very many cards particularly with younger players in the youth game.  Red cards in particular come with severe suspension penalties.  So refs are left with the choice of do nothing or go nuclear, knowing a sanction could severely impact the game and/or the players.  It's why refs can lose control of the game, because of failure to stomp out some behavior early on leads the players to think they can get away with it or take matters into their own hands.
> 
> So there isn't really any easy technical foul that can be awarded beyond a drop ball (which would be hated by all since it's not really a punishment and stops the flow of the game).  For the youngers, most of them can't get the corner kick into the box so it wouldn't make much of an impact anyways....for the olders it could really swing the game.


I don't REALLY believe that a technical foul type of call should be implemented. But if your team is giving away free corner kicks because your coach or some aggressive parent can't keep their mouth shut-  I bet they get quiet pretty fast.


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## lafalafa (May 3, 2021)

Refs are in short supply but they ones showing have been making the best of it and doing fine from what I've seen which is almost all video.

In the older groups some teams are having trouble getting enough players to show up for games.  The divide between teams that can play the ball and procession can be more pronounced when the numbers are low.

Teams get tired and frustrated and the games can get ugly with fouls or blowouts so the refs inevitably have to step in or spectators get frustrated when a team is not doing well or just playing jungle ball instead of maybe?  what they worked in in training.

Heard about a couple games where teams get so discouraged that they basically throw in the towel  stop playing hard, or won't even sub in while the coaches just watch it.   Games can get called early in some of those cases as players drop out like flys, was a team that started with 18 recently I heard about that finished the game with 9 or 10 for whatever reasons the coach threw in the towel early and the game was no more than a overmatched training session.


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## Grace T. (May 3, 2021)

timbuck said:


> I don't REALLY believe that a technical foul type of call should be implemented. But if your team is giving away free corner kicks because your coach or some aggressive parent can't keep their mouth shut-  I bet they get quiet pretty fast.


It would with the olders because they might actually score on a corner.  The youngers can't even get it into the box and the corner rarely translates into a goal scoring opportunity.  For the youngers, if you want to punish the parents, turn it into a mandatory goalkick for the offending team....given the high percentage most teams until U12 have for losing the ball on the goalkick, that might be a more severe punishment...but it would encourage on the boys side in particular coaches to find that really big kid with the big leg that can just boot the ball


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## timbuck (May 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It would with the olders because they might actually score on a corner.  The youngers can't even get it into the box and the corner rarely translates into a goal scoring opportunity.  For the youngers, if you want to punish the parents, turn it into a mandatory goalkick for the offending team....given the high percentage most teams until U12 have for losing the ball on the goalkick, that might be a more severe punishment...*but it would encourage on the boys side in particular coaches to find that really big kid with the big leg that can just boot the ball*


They already do this!!!


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## outside! (May 3, 2021)

DS is a ref. He did 3 games yesterday. He was center ref for one game and he said the players liked him because he can keep up with the game. Being 18 and fit turns out to be an advantage once again.


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## Grace T. (May 3, 2021)

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## Grace T. (May 3, 2021)




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## Grace T. (May 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


>


sorry wrong thread


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## Banana Hammock (May 3, 2021)

outside! said:


> DS is a ref. He did 3 games yesterday. He was center ref for one game and he said the players liked him because he can keep up with the game. Being 18 and fit turns out to be an advantage once again.


DS is going to the Marine Corps in July and decided not to play this spring season and instead as been reffing 8-10 games per weekend and some during the week.  Basically as many as he can get to.  For him, the money out weights the attitudes of the parents, but it did take him two years as AR before he would CR, now that's all he wants.  (doesn't always get it, but accepts every game they give him.)  Oh, and going too boot camps soon doesn't hurt his performance either.


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## TheVirginian (May 3, 2021)

Banana Hammock said:


> DS is going to the Marine Corps in July and decided not to play this spring season and instead as been reffing 8-10 games per weekend and some during the week.  Basically as many as he can get to.  For him, the money out weights the attitudes of the parents, but it did take him two years as AR before he would CR, now that's all he wants.  (doesn't always get it, but accepts every game they give him.)  Oh, and going too boot camps soon doesn't hurt his performance either.


How did he get into it?  I'd like to see if my 16 yo would do it.


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## RJonesUSC (May 3, 2021)

TheVirginian said:


> How did he get into it?  I'd like to see if my 16 yo would do it.


Not who you're asking but...

I would start with having him take the classes through your local AYSO.  Once he takes Regional and Intermediate, he can transfer over to USSF Grade 8/Grassroots and start doing club.  He could go directly into it with USSF but starting with AYSO is a more gentle route but it will probably take a year to do it.  It's free that way (except for the $35 (?) fee to transfer to USSF and AYSO (at least the region that is local to me) tries to make sure their youth refs aren't abused.  Just an idea.  I'm trying to get my kids to do that but neither have done it yet.  Oh, they can also get service hours (if they need them for school, etc.) for reffing in AYSO from what I'm told.


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## Banana Hammock (May 4, 2021)

TheVirginian said:


> How did he get into it?  I'd like to see if my 16 yo would do it.


He started by signing up for the class thru calsouth.  Took a in person one day class and completed a bunch of lessons and tests online.  He did not do the ayso method mentioned above.  I have another DS (12 or 13 at the time) who did it the same way but only reffed one day because of the pressure.  But at 16 your kid should be able to handle it.  After you get the level 8 cert. which is the first one, then you register with your local ref association and they assign games.  He has done it about 5 years.




__





						Referee FAQs - Cal South
					






					calsouth.com


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## timbuck (May 4, 2021)

How are we feeling about games on Mother's Day (this Sunday in case anyone needs a reminder).  
Don't expect any 3-man crews this Sunday.  You'll be lucky to get one.


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## focomoso (May 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> How are we feeling about games on Mother's Day (this Sunday in case anyone needs a reminder).
> Don't expect any 3-man crews this Sunday.  You'll be lucky to get one.


Are you saying refs have mothers...?


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## dad4 (May 4, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It would with the olders because they might actually score on a corner.  The youngers can't even get it into the box and the corner rarely translates into a goal scoring opportunity.  For the youngers, if you want to punish the parents, turn it into a mandatory goalkick for the offending team....given the high percentage most teams until U12 have for losing the ball on the goalkick, that might be a more severe punishment...but it would encourage on the boys side in particular coaches to find that really big kid with the big leg that can just boot the ball


watch some of the better flight 1 teams.  You’ll see a few 10 year olds who can curve it into the box, even on a 9v9 field.


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## Eagle33 (May 4, 2021)

focomoso said:


> Are you saying refs have mothers...?


Older ones don't. Those refs you will see this Sunday


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## GLangevinito (May 5, 2021)

My kid tried reffing at age 12. Centered a 8 year old REC game and left in tears after one of the coaches called her "pathetic" after arguing about a throw-in. She never reffed again. I wasn't there or I would have an assault and battery charge on my record right now.


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## Kicker4Life (May 5, 2021)

When I used to ref games, anytime a parent would bark.  I stopped the game, walked over to them and offered up my whistle.  “If you know better than I, come on out and give it a try!”....That typically shut them up.


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## dad4 (May 5, 2021)

GLangevinito said:


> My kid tried reffing at age 12. Centered a 8 year old REC game and left in tears after one of the coaches called her "pathetic" after arguing about a throw-in. She never reffed again. I wasn't there or I would have an assault and battery charge on my record right now.


Most rec programs near me would get rid of the coach if he treated a youth ref like that.  Ban him from games and tell the other parents that someone needs to step up.

You don't yell at the youth refs.  Coaches and parents are easy to replace.  Youth refs are valuable.


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## timbuck (May 5, 2021)

dad4 said:


> *Most rec programs* near me would get rid of the coach if he treated a youth ref like that.  Ban him from games and tell the other parents that someone needs to step up.
> 
> You don't yell at the youth refs.  Coaches and parents are easy to replace.  Youth refs are valuable.


Most competitive club programs would promote him to work with their top teams.  For being so "passionate" and doing whatever he can to show his players how much he cares.


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## SFR (May 5, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> When I used to ref games, anytime a parent would bark.  I stopped the game, walked over to them and offered up my whistle.  “If you know better than I, come on out and give it a try!”....That typically shut them up.


Stopping the game and go to a parent and talk to them is not advisable. In some cases it only makes the situation worse and look like a comedy or drama. 
What would yo do if some nut will say OK I'll do it? Or, who knows what else might happen. There is an established procedure when, in any case with a parent being out of line,  you go to coach and ask coach to handle his/her parent(s) and if coach refuses then the game is over. But, imagine this very unpleasant situation, and the referee is 13-16 years old.


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## Kicker4Life (May 5, 2021)

SFR said:


> Stopping the game and go to a parent and talk to them is not advisable. In some cases it only makes the situation worse and look like a comedy or drama.
> What would yo do if some nut will say OK I'll do it? Or, who knows what else might happen. There is an established procedure when, in any case with a parent being out of line,  you go to coach and ask coach to handle his/her parent(s) and if coach refuses then the game is over. But, imagine this very unpleasant situation, and the referee is 13-16 years old.


You’re correct!  Fortunately for me and all, my reffing career went no further than AYSO.


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