# Surf Cup abuse



## oh canada (Jul 24, 2022)

Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jul 24, 2022)

oh canada said:


> Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


It is a choice to play 4-5 games in 4 days. If you are weak minded/physically you don't have too. Please explain to me why money is the driving factor to "Crown a champion." Sounds ridiculous.


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## SDMama (Jul 24, 2022)

oh canada said:


> Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


Did Surf Cup for olders always crown a champion?  Was it ever just a showcase for the purpose of college coaches/recruiting exposure?  (I thought one of the big showcases was run that way in the past.  Maybe Surf Thanksgiving?)


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jul 25, 2022)

Four days is too much.  Not only for the players but how can low income families afford staying in San Diego for so long.     You are better off saving $2k in T&E and putting it towards college tuition.  
Then again, Surf caters to the rich families.


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## OrangeCountyDad (Jul 25, 2022)

oh canada said:


> Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


gotta maximize that games/hour metric.  Every time a field is empty it costs money.  most tournaments could easily run into the evening when it's cooler, less traffic, less field congestion, etc- but that costs money too.


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## Code (Jul 25, 2022)

Let's be real about the scenario.  Only a minority of teams will play 4 games, and a smaller amount will play 5.  Also, some teams are carrying 20+ players, so if ideally everyone gets playing time in the showcase, they may only get 1 or 2 games worth of playing time, while a few might see 3, and a very small amount 4+.  If the coach/team is pushing a player to play 4-5 games in succession, and the player doesn't feel 100%, the solution is very easy and it lies soley in the players lap, don't dress out.


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## watfly (Jul 25, 2022)

Surf Cup is not for everyone.  Every year there are complaints about parking charges, game times and even complaints about people getting their car dusty so its not for the faint hearted.

It's typically a well run tournament, although I think the competition has been slipping and is becoming less relevant than it used to be.  Although we've haven't done it in a few years the kids always seem to have a great time.  Is it potentially a lot of games, yes, but the vast majority only play three.  As with all tournaments the quality of soccer tends to deteriorate as the weekend goes on.

I can't vouch for the recruiting at Surf Cup, but the MLS Next showcase (and I assume the ECNL showcases) is crawling with scouts (it seems every Division 1) and seems like a much better opportunity for getting looked at, at a much lower cost.


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## Messi>CR7 (Jul 25, 2022)

Code said:


> Let's be real about the scenario.  Only a minority of teams will play 4 games, and a smaller amount will play 5.  Also, some teams are carrying 20+ players, so if ideally everyone gets playing time in the showcase, they may only get 1 or 2 games worth of playing time, while a few might see 3, and a very small amount 4+.  If the coach/team is pushing a player to play 4-5 games in succession, and the player doesn't feel 100%, the solution is very easy and it lies soley in the players lap, don't dress out.


While I agree with what you said, how many kids you know are willing to voluntarily ask the coach to sit him/her out at a Surf Cup semifinal even though he/she is not hurt?  I can tell you my kids would never do that even though we taught them to speak up and protect themselves.


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## oh canada (Jul 25, 2022)

Code said:


> Let's be real about the scenario.  Only a minority of teams will play 4 games, and a smaller amount will play 5.  Also, some teams are carrying 20+ players, so if ideally everyone gets playing time in the showcase, they may only get 1 or 2 games worth of playing time, while a few might see 3, and a very small amount 4+.  If the coach/team is pushing a player to play 4-5 games in succession, and the player doesn't feel 100%, the solution is very easy and it lies soley in the players lap, don't dress out.


At least 4 teams from EVERY bracket are playing four games in four days. That's a lot of players. Then you have two teams from EVERY bracket playing 2x on the same day (after three previous games). These are not 8yr olds. Talk to every 14-18yr old after three games and I guarantee you they are playing hurt or exhausted. If not, then they don't play hard.

Every team has players that play more than 50% in every game. If you don't know that, then you haven't been watching much U14-u19 soccer.

Given pressures from coaches and other parents, there's no way a kid is going to say "sit me because I need more rest/recovery time" *during a college recruiting *event. This statement from you makes me think you have no experience yet in these upper age groups.

What's the GOOD reason for playing a 4th game in 4 days? Colleges don't, youth national teams don't, professionals don't. Most of the scouts are gone, the players are exhausted, the soccer is bad, and the injury risk is at its PEAK. There is NO benefit to the player.


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## paytoplay (Jul 25, 2022)

Winning is the higher priority. Health of the players is not so important. Push them to the limit. Do not get distracted, no resources can be diverted to catering to their health. All the clubs are racing each other, fall behind, go out of business. You’re going to have some casualties. It’ll sort out.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

Code said:


> Let's be real about the scenario.  Only a minority of teams will play 4 games, and a smaller amount will play 5.  Also, some teams are carrying 20+ players, so if ideally everyone gets playing time in the showcase, they may only get 1 or 2 games worth of playing time, while a few might see 3, and a very small amount 4+.  If the coach/team is pushing a player to play 4-5 games in succession, and the player doesn't feel 100%, the solution is very easy and it lies soley in the players lap, don't dress out.


Finally someone makes sense.  Games are 80 minutes, or an average of 47 minutes a game for 17 field players, less if a club is carrying a larger roster, which happens a lot with larger clubs that have multiple teams in each age group from which to pull kids for a tournament.  Too many minutes is not a big deal when a tournament is properly managed by a coach who carries a large enough roster. 

The real problem isn't Surf Cup, it is parents refusing to take responsibility for the health and safety of their own child. It is solely the parent's fault if a coach is riding their kid hard enough to play them 80 minutes a game 4-5 straight days.  Seriously, if you are letting your kid play at a club that rides her too hard, wtf are you doing? There are many clubs and coaches out there who are doing their best to help kids succeed without getting them hurt, and all this self-pitying nonsense about how all youth clubs and coaches are the same is an inaccurate cop-out and usually cover for being a cheapskate who doesn't want to pay for a good club or coach.  They have no clue what elite youth soccer is actually paying for, and one of them is to help get your kid to the recruiting finish line without unnecessary injury risk, and good clubs know that kids getting hurt unnecessarily is bad for business anyway. These parents want to ban Surf Cup altogether because they decided to play for a shit club that is thin on players and employs coaches who believe their future as a "pro" soccer coach depends on them winning a soccer tournament, even if that means jeopardizing the health of a player. They're just jealous of real players on real clubs who are really getting the advantages of youth club soccer.

Everyone on my kid's team knew in advance of every Surf Cup and showcase which games that mutually interested colleges were coming to see them because it was coordinated in advance. Playing time for individual games were largely determined in advance based on which colleges were coming to see whom, which had the added benefit of minimizing injury risk by helping avoid riding kids too hard.  It was all very civilized in a way that maximized the kids' recruiting and ability to rest them during the tournament and, go figure, not about winning.  Of course, winning was always in the cards regardless because that is what the depth of a strong club with a great coach allows for even when it isn't the main priority.  Meanwhile, one lesser (thin) club after the next was riding its few ballers hard every game in the blind hope that college coaches randomly show up on the sideline.  This is a great example why those who claimed in a different thread that parents shouldn't tell their coach and DOC who is recruiting them are idiots. They're idiots for letting their kid play in a club where the coach isn't going to use that information for the benefit of either their kid or her teammates.  Or they're idiots for being paranoid about it.  Or they're idiots for being selfish and depriving the coach of the ability to coordinate for her teammates. Or they're idiots letting their kid play at a club that will work your kid too hard.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Winning is the higher priority. Health of the players is not so important. Push them to the limit. Do not get distracted, no resources can be diverted to catering to their health. All the clubs are racing each other, fall behind, go out of business. You’re going to have some casualties. It’ll sort out.


This is a cop out. There are youth coaches out there who do not prioritize winning over development or health.  I suspect you're just too cheap to pay for those clubs, so you don't have any clue.  Carry on with the self-pity and delusions that girls youth soccer in Spain is utopia where 100 Pep Guardiolas train little girls for free.


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## Soccer Cat (Jul 25, 2022)

My daughter played every minute of the first three games.  She was tired but she is very fit and there’s nothing about it that’s abuse.  She would have been thrilled to play again Monday if her team had made it to the semi’s.  

I’ll take one game a day for days at a time over other formats that had them playing two games a day.


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## Dominic (Jul 25, 2022)

Do They still have "The Best of the Best " banner?


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## paytoplayisgood (Jul 25, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Four days is too much.  Not only for the players but how can low income families afford staying in San Diego for so long.     You are better off saving $2k in T&E and putting it towards college tuition.
> Then again, Surf caters to the rich families.


You can sleep in the car then.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

Dominic said:


> Do They still have "The Best of the Best " banner?


Yes.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

My eldest DD played 5 games in 4 days and every minute with blisters on her feet. I agree that's alot, but she did love it.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> It is solely the parent's fault if a coach is riding their kid hard enough to play them 80 minutes a game 4-5 straight days.


Um, it would be both the coach and parents fault...not solely the parents.


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## Soccer Dad & Ref (Jul 26, 2022)

I reffed 10 games over the weekend.  I agree, 4-5 games over 4 days is abuse.  The 5th game is major abuse, as they likely played 2 games within 6 hours at most.  The players were gassed in the finals.


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## Sike (Jul 26, 2022)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> I reffed 10 games over the weekend.  I agree, 4-5 games over 4 days is abuse.  The 5th game is major abuse, as they likely played 2 games within 6 hours at most.  The players were gassed in the finals.


The portions of the final games that I saw were awful for the older ages. Four days in a row with a single game each day is a lot, but I feel like it can be manageable with 18+ on the roster.  But a second game on day four takes it from manageable to silly.  I think just making it into a showcase for the olders is the better way to go.


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## futboldad1 (Jul 26, 2022)

3 games in 3 days makes sense financially for families but health wise the third day can be tricky...anymore than that is risky but the kids who win or make finals have an amazing time...... national playoffs in Seattle was cool as it was 4 days and 3 games so there was a rest day.......only negative is more $ for families..... it is a balance......overall seeing these events as a vacation with your family to be enjoyed is the best approach versus counting on it getting your kid a scholarship......my kid is no U17 and my advice is just enjoy their journey


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## crush (Jul 26, 2022)

futboldad1 said:


> 3 games in 3 days makes sense financially for families but health wise the third day can be tricky...anymore than that is risky but the kids who win or make finals have an amazing time...... national playoffs in Seattle was cool as it was 4 days and 3 games so there was a rest day.......only negative is more $ for families..... it is a balance......overall seeing these events as a vacation with your family to be enjoyed is the best approach versus counting on it getting your kid a scholarship......my kid is no U17 and my advice is just enjoy their journey


100%. However, when I did my back to back "vacation" to Seattle and Texas in 2017, my son called me out for trying to BS him with the vacation....lol! I made it up to him with a father/son vacation. It was epic. I had to be honest with him when he called me out.


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## gotothebushes (Jul 26, 2022)

LASTMAN14 said:


> My eldest DD played 5 games in 4 days and every minute with blisters on her feet. I agree that's alot, but she did love it.


It's alot and not worth it!


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 26, 2022)

My oldest Coach took the position that he was subbing everyone on a rotation to manage minutes…If we won, great, if not, so be it.  It isn’t worth risking the kids health for a meaningless trophy. 

It was a good Litmus test for this team as they combine age groups.


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## Code (Jul 26, 2022)

oh canada said:


> At least 4 teams from EVERY bracket are playing four games in four days. That's a lot of players. Then you have two teams from EVERY bracket playing 2x on the same day (after three previous games). These are not 8yr olds. Talk to every 14-18yr old after three games and I guarantee you they are playing hurt or exhausted. If not, then they don't play hard.
> 
> Every team has players that play more than 50% in every game. If you don't know that, then you haven't been watching much U14-u19 soccer.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, some players are playing because they love to play.  They thrive on and love the competition and are not necessarily doing any of this for college soccer.  I know a number of older ECNL players who are prioritizing academics over soccer for thier college goals.


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## dk_b (Jul 26, 2022)

The odds of any one player getting hurt in that workload are not that high (most will not get hurt) but the odds of some players getting hurt are quite high. And when you need to pay really close attention is in the days after - does coach have them train w/o recovery days? - and in the aggregate load during tournament season. Sure, many love the game.  And, of course, no competitive kid wants to risk not being on the pitch when the coach of the dream school is there but there is no question the risk is greater the more games/minutes in the highest concentration of days. As someone noted upthread, pros and college players don’t have that type of load. As someone who has 2 post-ACL surgery kids at home (and a college playing kid who did play in that format back in the day), it’s a bit disconcerting.

(Look at the Vegas Players Showcase schedules . . . Sometimes 3 games w/in 24 hrs and 4 games w/in 40)


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

gotothebushes said:


> It's alot and not worth it!


Your not wrong my brother, but AJ says she was good with it. Call me.


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## soccer4us (Jul 26, 2022)

No one go to tournaments and let your kids know sorry, no tournaments in your career. Have fun though!


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## dk_b (Jul 27, 2022)

soccer4us said:


> No one go to tournaments and let your kids know sorry, no tournaments in your career. Have fun though!


Not really what anyone is saying but it is worth it to always look with a critical eye to confirm what works and adjust what doesn't. The higher one goes in the sport, the more player and parent are exposed to overuse injuries - ACL tears included. Is there a single variable? No. But can we mitigate risk but reducing the # of 4 game/2 day or 3 game/24 hr events? Yes.

NCAA is moving from using OT to decide games this coming season. Why not? Nobody likes ties. We need wins and losses? Or, because the accumulated workload - at the end of OT on a Sun of a two-game weekend or over the course of the season - puts players at risk, lowers the quality of the games and can be addressed through other means for post-season bids.


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## bigkick (Jul 31, 2022)

oh canada said:


> Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


No one is "making" you.  You don't want to play.  Don't show up.  Simple.


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## Eagle33 (Aug 2, 2022)

Love the adults shooting crap. Why don't you ask any kid, boy or girl, if it's too much or too many games for them?


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## oh canada (Aug 2, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> Love the adults shooting crap. Why don't you ask any kid, boy or girl, if it's too much or too many games for them?


And scientists say Koalas are the dumbest mammals?


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## oh canada (Aug 2, 2022)

bigkick said:


> No one is "making" you.  You don't want to play.  Don't show up.  Simple.


Koalas brain levels are the equivalent of being high all the time. They will fight over eucalyptus leaves even though they can eat any leaf and the eucalyptus is much more difficult to digest.


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## Grace T. (Aug 2, 2022)

oh canada said:


> And scientists say Koalas are the dumbest mammals?


Meh.  You seem to think that there aren't kids there that are crazy obsessed with soccer and passionately want to work at being the best.  As the parent of a kid whose seen him painfully fall on his face countless times, and has repeatedly tried to get him out of this broken game (yet somehow he's not only managed to pick himself up on his own with all the adults piling on him, and become not only competent but good), I can most assuredly tell you they exist.

Now you can argue:
-That's not healthy for kids....we as adults should stop them;
-There are kids out there that are not like this, and whose parents push them into doing 4 games a weekend; and/or
-Kids that are not crazy obsessed do not belong and should not being playing at the highest levels.

But "it's abuse" is a sloppy lazy argument.  Some kids, especially at the higher levels, are just wired that way.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 2, 2022)

To be fair, they also argued that Alex Morgan was wrong for stating she wanted to be back for the Olympics after giving birth……


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## oh canada (Aug 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Meh.  You seem to think that there aren't kids there that are crazy obsessed with soccer and passionately want to work at being the best.  As the parent of a kid whose seen him painfully fall on his face countless times, and has repeatedly tried to get him out of this broken game (yet somehow he's not only managed to pick himself up on his own with all the adults piling on him, and become not only competent but good), I can most assuredly tell you they exist.
> 
> Now you can argue:
> -That's not healthy for kids....we as adults should stop them;
> ...


oh gawd - i wouldn't spend time replying to most others writing the above, but i expect more from you Grace T. Read my post, not the headline. I know there are kids who will/want to play 5 games in 4 days (my eldest son was one). I also know (and teach) A LOT of kids who drink 3 Arizona Teas every day. They need adults to tell them when too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Unfortunately, many parents don't have that good sense. So, it's incumbent upon the tournament organizer to not put inspired kids and obsessed parents in that predicament. High school aged kids shouldn't play 4 or 5 games in 4 days...period. If you argue otherwise, then I've got a eucalyptus leaf for you.


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## lafalafa (Aug 2, 2022)

Surf cup is like many tournaments driven to make $$ by almost all means possible.

Are they any different vs Cerritos Memorial or any other tournament where you can play up to 6 games over 3 to 4 day?

Surf was always a great experience for our players, Mondays the best day.  finals only before the 2-a-days.  Of course helps when you have multiple jackets but it's up to the parents and players to decide if they want to overcome obstacles and push through or not.

Complaining after is amusing but all info is published prior to the tournament so you know what's your signing up for.

Funding rasing for a local club is one thing but these are multiple millions dollar operations where directors can make six-figures easy.

surf cup is just one participant in a overall bigger problem where almost everything is setup to benefit the organizers , some club etc  It's not players first but players last in getting a say about things.

Do the heavy legged player enjoy that 5th and 6th game? or just going through the motions.  Some will but overall majority would likely tell you they need a break.


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## Grace T. (Aug 2, 2022)

oh canada said:


> oh gawd - i wouldn't spend time replying to most others writing the above, but i expect more from you Grace T. Read my post, not the headline. I know there are kids who will/want to play 5 games in 4 days (my eldest son was one). I also know (and teach) A LOT of kids who drink 3 Arizona Teas every day. They need adults to tell them when too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Unfortunately, many parents don't have that good sense. So, it's incumbent upon the tournament organizer to not put inspired kids and obsessed parents in that predicament. High school aged kids shouldn't play 4 or 5 games in 4 days...period. If you argue otherwise, then I've got a eucalyptus leaf for you.


As I said, that's a fair critique, but really all you are complaining about is the additional 5th game as 4 is fairly standard for winning teams at tournaments (or perhaps the entire tournament system....but that's a conversation for another day).  I wouldn't have characterized it as "abuse" except to the extent the entire system is abusive. There is a simple remedy: don't go.  You are of course free to critique other parent's parenting choices (but we know how that usually goes) and to rail against the system (hey I'm right there with you), but it is the system we got and that's not going to change until you fix college recruitment).


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## GoldenGate (Aug 2, 2022)

oh canada said:


> oh gawd - i wouldn't spend time replying to most others writing the above, but i expect more from you Grace T. Read my post, not the headline. I know there are kids who will/want to play 5 games in 4 days (my eldest son was one). I also know (and teach) A LOT of kids who drink 3 Arizona Teas every day. They need adults to tell them when too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Unfortunately, many parents don't have that good sense. So, it's incumbent upon the tournament organizer to not put inspired kids and obsessed parents in that predicament. High school aged kids shouldn't play 4 or 5 games in 4 days...period. If you argue otherwise, then I've got a eucalyptus leaf for you.


The better (but also bad) analogy is that it's Arizona Tea's fault that kids drink three of them a day because Arizona Tea is the one marketing and selling the "dangerous" product, just like Surf Cup is the one marketing and selling its "dangerous" product.  Presumably, then Arizona Tea should be forced to sell only sugarfree decaf because it knows many kids do not have responsible parents who will hold them accountable for too much of a good thing.  

In reality, the team's club coach is actually the teacher in your analogy, who should be telling his students they're doing too much when their parents are too stupid to do anything themselves.


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## dad4 (Aug 2, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> The better (but also bad) analogy is that it's Arizona Tea's fault that kids drink three of them a day because Arizona Tea is the one marketing and selling the "dangerous" product, just like Surf Cup is the one marketing and selling its "dangerous" product.  Presumably, then Arizona Tea should be forced to sell only sugarfree decaf because it knows many kids do not have responsible parents who will hold them accountable for too much of a good thing.
> 
> In reality, the team's club coach is actually the teacher in your analogy, who should be telling his students they're doing too much when their parents are too stupid to do anything themselves.


Parents should do it.  Do you actually want each set of parents to come up with their own rules for how much their kid can play?

I’m trying to imagine the coach reaction if 18 players came in with 18 different sets of restrictions for how much they can play.


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## pewpew (Aug 3, 2022)

bigkick said:


> No one is "making" you.  You don't want to play.  Don't show up.  Simple.


^^ This right here. And I doubt you'll find a kid out on the pitch that doesn't want to be there. 
Another option..depending on the school..you could always see when they are holding their own ID camp. Might save you a lot of time, money, and "abuse" of running around to all these tournaments hoping to get scouted by 20+ D1 coaches on the sideline.


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## Happened again (Aug 3, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> My oldest Coach took the position that he was subbing everyone on a rotation to manage minutes…If we won, great, if not, so be it.  It isn’t worth risking the kids health for a meaningless trophy.
> 
> It was a good Litmus test for this team as they combine age groups.


smart coach and maybe he/she understands sports medicine.

bottom line is overuse injuries have increased x10 in youth sports since 2000.  The amount of kids having ACL injuries is soaring, especially amongst girls.  Coach/parental pressure contribute most to youth sports injuries.  Return to play guidance for post surgical kids are usually ignored/comprimised. 

Some say some kids are more resilient than others or just love the game more.  Usually what that means is thos kids are just more lucky than others.  Most in a tournmanet won't get injured..many will or were injured and don't know it.  Take it for what it's worth, teens aren't fully developed, overuse is a thing, and many kids don't come back to the sport they loved after a severe injury due to overuse/burnout.  

$$$ drive the train, parents and coaches will push, kids will play and life goes on.  Insurance will continue to pay out for surgeries and parents/coaches will continue to roll the dice.


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## GoldenGate (Aug 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Parents should do it.  Do you actually want each set of parents to come up with their own rules for how much their kid can play?
> 
> I’m trying to imagine the coach reaction if 18 players came in with 18 different sets of restrictions for how much they can play.


Absolutely, to the extent every parent should figure out what the expectation will be on their kids and how the coach intends to handle substitutions over a tournament like that.  I'm not saying each parent should say "My kid is only going to play X minutes per game, except for the finals when I want her to play all of them." It is solely the responsibility of the parent to figure out what they plan is for their daughter, and it is solely the responsibility of the parent to take action if they don't like the plan.


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## dad4 (Aug 3, 2022)

Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.

If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch.  Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.  

The kids who play full games get more than that whenever there are two games in a weekend.   For some kids, a five game weekend means almost six hours on the pitch.  The risk of injury is a lot higher.

Honestly, a cap on minutes played per kid would be fine.  The full game kids would finally get a rest, and the half game kids would get decent playing time.


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## Grace T. (Aug 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.
> 
> If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch.  Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.
> 
> ...


It wouldn’t be that hard to implement either because it can be built into the video equipment lots if teams are using. The issue though is that equipment is still confined to the richer clubs.

I like that the strategy it brings: do I use Billy’s minutes for ensuring we get out of the group stage or save him for the finals.  I like that it pushes clubs to bring in people that are equally placed and not just bench warmers…it would cause greater volatility which is good for players

the downside is it favors the bigger clubs with a deeper bench in the major cities.  Some smaller clubs or clubs in the outer ring (eg murrieta Bakersfield Santa Barbara) may not have the bench to compete or maybe even mount the minutes if the bench is thinned due to illness or injury.


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## Happened again (Aug 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.
> 
> If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch.  Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.
> 
> ...


In the big picture, most overuse injuries can be prevented.  5 games at tournmanents is certainly an issue. What is missed by most clubs, parents, and the athletes themselves is the importance of an offseason.  

 There really isn't an offseason, especially when ECNL/GA take athletes deep into the summer, then clubs bring you back early AUG.  The few days/weeks inbetween, the kids feel the pressure to  "make gains" during the offseason.. very cliche really.   The true gains are a result of rest/recovery.  I see way too many kids trying to improve their yo yo test, 2mile time, strength, etc within the time season ends and when club season begins.  100% blame on the process...didn't surf cup just end?  There is a cottage industry of Physical Therapy practices and youth sports..

Their is pride in being on the grind.  There should be an established off season but the quest for the $$$ doesn't stop.  Plenty of $$ to be made around youth sports...


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## Grace T. (Aug 3, 2022)

Happened again said:


> In the big picture, most overuse injuries can be prevented.  5 games at tournmanents is certainly an issue. What is missed by most clubs, parents, and the athletes themselves is the importance of an offseason.
> 
> There really isn't an offseason, especially when ECNL/GA take athletes deep into the summer, then clubs bring you back early AUG.  The few days/weeks inbetween, the kids feel the pressure to  "make gains" during the offseason.. very cliche really.   The true gains are a result of rest/recovery.  I see way too many kids trying to improve their yo yo test, 2mile time, strength, etc within the time season ends and when club season begins.  100% blame on the process...didn't surf cup just end?  There is a cottage industry of Physical Therapy practices and youth sports..
> 
> Their is pride in being on the grind.  There should be an established off season but the quest for the $$$ doesn't stop.  Plenty of $$ to be made around youth sports...


While $ certainly does play a role in it (coaches would have to forego training fees), at the higher levels that's not what's driving it.  The younger & lower level flight 3/bronze teams, for example, usually do get some time off because people are on vacation (soccer not being as much of a priority) and they can't make roster at certain times of year.  The main issue is that Americans for developing pro players actually DON'T have enough training time relative to European academies (which in Europe is multiple games on the weekend, 4-5 days of training for 3-5 hours depending on the country and age of the players).  The MLS academies have moved in this direction, which causes the MLS Next teams to have to up their training to compete.  But because school is a priority too for American players (it's not as much in Europe because you have to pick between either an academic or athletic track), there's a certain limit to the number of hours in the day they can do it, which causes the season to be spread out.  It then trickles down EA/EA2, NPL, Elite 64/Flight 1 etc.  And if the season is extended you need some time for tournaments (which parents demand and which do serve a training and testing purpose), tryouts, and to onboard new or promoted players (which at the higher levels now takes place in summer since the season kicks off right away in fall).  Europe by contrast goes dark in the mid part of the summer but they do a lot more during the season and school just takes a back seat for academy level players (everyone else plays rec and in the summer everyone is off).

As long as we have the college system that we have and recruited athletics, there's not a whole lot that can be done to fix it.  It's either top down or down up.  Either parents can say no and those that want can opt out and play lower flights, or it has to be imposed top down (but that would require fixing things like the MLS/ECNL GA/ECNL split, carding everyone in the same program, establishing recruitment and signing windows, establishing a fixed tournament season).  Otherwise, you'll just get people splitting off and forming another league (like Elite 64) because they don't like the way things are being done.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> As I said, that's a fair critique, but really all you are complaining about is the additional 5th game as 4 is fairly standard for winning teams at tournaments (or perhaps the entire tournament system....but that's a conversation for another day).  I wouldn't have characterized it as "abuse" except to the extent the entire system is abusive. There is a simple remedy: don't go.  You are of course free to critique other parent's parenting choices (but we know how that usually goes) and to rail against the system (hey I'm right there with you), but it is the system we got and that's not going to change until you fix college recruitment).


We'll never know, but I'd be interested in how many girls got to play at a college they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to attend because they played that 4th or 5th game (or, even 3rd game) versus how many of them ended up with an injury that kept them out for a significant time because of those games.

To @dad4's point, how does a coach manage 18 different "playing time restrictions"? We did a bit of it as our daughter is passionate about soccer and would play any game as long as they kept score. My suggestion is that if you want to manage it, be proactive. Look at the proposed schedule before the year and talk to the coach if you have concerns as far in advance as possible. My daughter's coaches were very understanding. We decided that ECNL games and playoffs were too important for the team to worry about managing time, but for anything that wasn't ECNL, we considered managing playing time. I can tell you that if you go through girls' youth soccer until they age out, you'll start to see them get injured at an alarming rate.


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## crush (Aug 3, 2022)

kickingandscreaming said:


> We'll never know, but I'd be interested in how many girls got to play at a college they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to attend because they played that 4th or 5th game (or, even 3rd game) versus how many of them ended up with an injury that kept them out for a significant time because of those games.
> 
> To @dad4's point, how does a coach manage 18 different "playing time restrictions"? We did a bit of it as our daughter is passionate about soccer and would play any game as long as they kept score. My suggestion is that if you want to manage it, be proactive. Look at the proposed schedule before the year and talk to the coach if you have concerns as far in advance as possible. My daughter's coaches were very understanding. We decided that ECNL games and playoffs were too important for the team to worry about managing time, but for anything that wasn't ECNL, we considered managing playing time. I can tell you that if you go through girls' youth soccer until they age out, you'll start to see them get injured at an alarming rate.


What a nice and understanding coach your dd has. I have never met one like that in the great socal area. I just heard of another ACL tear by the way.

Parent: Hey coach, here is the schedule of minutes and games for my dd this weekend

Coach: Ahh thanks dad, I super appreciate you and how much you care about your player. Let me get the other 17 schedules from the other parents and I will make it all happened. Safety first is my motto 

The only player I knew who did the schedule on demand was one of the #1 players in our country and her dad was a beast and protected his dd and the coach obeyed and was just happy when she was available.  Peace bruh


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## Sike (Aug 3, 2022)

Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 3, 2022)

Sike said:


> Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.


Here's something I found - but I don't see corresponding studies. Assuming this is based on real data, it gives useful information - injuries are more likely in games than in training, overuse injuries are most common, and a bit of guidance on rest. Unfortunately, it's not very specific and doesn't reference studies.








						Soccer-Related Injuries in Kids are Rising – What Can Parents Do?
					

Many high school soccer injuries occur during illegal plays in games. Start enforcing the rules of fair play at an early age, as well as proper, age-appropriate heading techniques to reduce risk of concussion and other injuries. More tips here.




					www.healthychildren.org
				




Another thing to be aware of in injury prevention is getting enough sleep.


			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263971781_Chronic_Lack_of_Sleep_is_Associated_With_Increased_Sports_Injuries_in_Adolescent_Athletes


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## crush (Aug 3, 2022)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Here's something I found - but I don't see corresponding studies. Assuming this is based on real data, it gives useful information - injuries are more likely in games than in training, overuse injuries are most common, and a bit of guidance on rest. Unfortunately, it's not very specific and doesn't reference studies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


100% on the sleep part K&S. Trying to be the best of best in college and having to study and then practice is not easy for those who demand excellence in all area's of life. My dd watched one of her former teammates cry on tic tok for being so stressed out and the #1 issues was lack of sleep. Road games and mid terms with zero mercy from Professor Asshat.  We all know what a true Unicorn is and only those players are welcomed at Big U. I honestly hope and pray for the wellbeing of all the players who risk it all to play the great game. Besides all the physical injures that happen in soccer for over use, the mental agony put on these girls is insane as well and it's horrible twofer, MOO!!!


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## Happened again (Aug 3, 2022)

Sike said:


> Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.


Generalized studies are  hard to come by because of the wide range of injuries.  Studies usually focus on specifics.  With youth sports, the issue is diagnoses, when to determine soreness VS injury.  Kids, especially the high performing ones, tend to want to hide injuries.

A good rule of thumb is to determine soreness vs an injury.  Soreness has a much shorter duration, generally 1-3 days. If pain lingers beyond 3 days, it's usually a good idea to rest and see your pediatrician, or if you have a sports ortho handy, see them.  Soreness tends to cover larger areas of your body, pain tends to localize in joints and muscles.  Think of a dead leg vs general leg muscle soreness.  

There isn't a specific guidline for kids, they are so different.  As they get older, >12, treatments are alwaysa  good idea: massage, stretching, core, chiro, ice bath, massage guns, etc.  Can get pricy to maintain an energetic and high performing athlete.  Besides, they think they are bullet proof until they are not.


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## crush (Aug 3, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Generalized studies are  hard to come by because of the wide range of injuries.  Studies usually focus on specifics.  With youth sports, the issue is diagnoses, when to determine soreness VS injury.  Kids, especially the high performing ones, tend to want to hide injuries.
> 
> A good rule of thumb is to determine soreness vs an injury.  Soreness has a much shorter duration, generally 1-3 days. If pain lingers beyond 3 days, it's usually a good idea to rest and see your pediatrician, or if you have a sports ortho handy, see them.  Soreness tends to cover larger areas of your body, pain tends to localize in joints and muscles.  Think of a dead leg vs general leg muscle soreness.
> 
> There isn't a specific guidline for kids, they are so different.  As they get older, >12, treatments are alwaysa  good idea: massage, stretching, core, chiro, ice bath, massage guns, etc.  Can get pricy to maintain an energetic and high performing athlete.  Besides, they think they are bullet proof until they are not.


My dd best coach overall told his players, "It's up to you to tell me how your doing." Let be honest today. The parents are addicted with watching their player play. Crush got a rush when my little one ran around and played her little heart out. The player has to stand up to dad and the coach and tell them both, "My head hurts and my knee is tight. I can't and will not go back to back. Sorry, but it's my body and my choice."


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## OrangeCountyDad (Aug 12, 2022)

Happened again said:


> bottom line is overuse injuries have increased x10 in youth sports since 2000.  The amount of kids having ACL injuries is soaring, especially amongst girls.


Lot of anecdotal evidence points to artificial turf as a contributor (not saying it's one or the other, I'm sure they negatively compliment each other).  I wish someone would do a study on injuries playing on turf vs grass.  Feels like over the last 10-15 years many fields have been converted to turf.
And I get why we have turf fields particularly at schools and community facilities.  Maybe there is a study and I couldn't find it?


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## espola (Aug 12, 2022)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> Lot of anecdotal evidence points to artificial turf as a contributor (not saying it's one or the other, I'm sure they negatively compliment each other).  I wish someone would do a study on injuries playing on turf vs grass.  Feels like over the last 10-15 years many fields have been converted to turf.
> And I get why we have turf fields particularly at schools and community facilities.  Maybe there is a study and I couldn't find it?


The NFLPA, having a vested interest in this, took some stats --

"Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."






						Only Natural Grass Can Level The NFL’s Playing Field
					






					nflpa.com


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## OrangeCountyDad (Aug 12, 2022)

espola said:


> Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."


wow, those are big numbers.
More slippery turf?  less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.


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## watfly (Aug 12, 2022)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> wow, those are big numbers.
> More slippery turf?  less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.


My totally unproven theory is that its the lack of available round studded shoes (not talking about the indoor turf shoes) and the popularity of the "cool" cleats which are mostly bladed, I think in large part to save weight.  But again this is just speculation.


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## dad4 (Aug 12, 2022)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> wow, those are big numbers.
> More slippery turf?  less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.


Take a look at prices for PT.  You're talking over $100 per visit. 

The boots are the cheaper way to go.


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## MacDre (Aug 12, 2022)

espola said:


> The NFLPA, having a vested interest in this, took some stats --
> 
> "Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."
> 
> ...


What about this…








						Soccer players' cancers ignite debate over turf safety
					

After a list of soccer players with cancer prompted an investigation, the state found nothing unusual -- but one coach still thinks the cancer might be linked to artificial turf.




					amp.cnn.com


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## espola (Aug 12, 2022)

MacDre said:


> What about this…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"The results showed that the cancer rate among soccer players in the investigation, based on Griffin's list, was actually less than expected compared with the cancer rate among all Washington residents of similar ages."


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## dad4 (Aug 12, 2022)

espola said:


> "The results showed that the cancer rate among soccer players in the investigation, based on Griffin's list, was actually less than expected compared with the cancer rate among all Washington residents of similar ages."


If you want to isolate the effect of turf, it seems you would want to compare soccer players who practice on grass to soccer players who practice on turf.

Otherwise, you are partly measuring whether exercise is protective against cancer.


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## espola (Aug 12, 2022)

dad4 said:


> If you want to isolate the effect of turf, it seems you would want to compare soccer players who practice on grass to soccer players who practice on turf.
> 
> Otherwise, you are partly measuring whether exercise is protective against cancer.


That was part of the analysis.

*Is it safe for my kids to play on synthetic fields made with crumb rubber?*
Based on what we know today, the Washington State Department of Health recommends that people who enjoy soccer continue to play regardless of the type of field surface. Our recommendation is based on our investigation and the available research on crumb rubber which currently does not suggest it poses a significant public health risk. Assurances of the safety of artificial turf with crumb rubber are limited by the lack of adequate information on potential toxicity and exposure.





__





						Synthetic Turf and Crumb Rubber
					

Investigation of Reported Cancer Among Soccer Players in Washington State In 2009, the University of Washington Women's Associate Head Soccer Coach, Amy Griffin, became concerned that several soccer goalies had developed blood cancers at around the same time. By 2014, the coach had compiled a...




					doh.wa.gov


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## Venantsyo (Aug 12, 2022)

oh canada said:


> Said it last year and will say it again...making high schoolers play 4-5 games in 4 days is child abuse. Even 3 games in 3 days is much, but I understand you kinda gotta do that for the college coaches. There's no reason other than Surf Cup $ that older ages need to "crown a champion". Praying for all to be injury-free down there.


Well known tournament this upcoming weekend: for G04/05 up to 5 games… in 2 days. 
Sunday 3 games in 7 hours.


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## OrangeCountyDad (Aug 12, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Take a look at prices for PT.  You're talking over $100 per visit.
> 
> The boots are the cheaper way to go.


maybe. depends on your health insurance I guess.
My kid's last club team, we had a girl whose family could barely afford the size-too-small boots she was already wearing. In a country where it's already prohibitively expensive for many families, expecting them to buy 2-3 pair of boots is just another barrier to entry.


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## dad4 (Aug 12, 2022)

espola said:


> That was part of the analysis.
> 
> *Is it safe for my kids to play on synthetic fields made with crumb rubber?*
> Based on what we know today, the Washington State Department of Health recommends that people who enjoy soccer continue to play regardless of the type of field surface. Our recommendation is based on our investigation and the available research on crumb rubber which currently does not suggest it poses a significant public health risk. Assurances of the safety of artificial turf with crumb rubber are limited by the lack of adequate information on potential toxicity and exposure.
> ...


Crumb rubber also smells really bad on hot days, but not on cold.

It may be that Washington just doesn’t have very many hot days when the crumb rubber is off gassing.  Put the same substance in 90 degree socal sun, and your exposure will be far higher.


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## soccer4us (Aug 12, 2022)

send


Venantsyo said:


> Well known tournament this upcoming weekend: for G04/05 up to 5 games… in 2 days.
> Sunday 3 games in 7 hours.


 Send the link to tournament please. Thanks


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## futboldad1 (Aug 12, 2022)

soccer4us said:


> send
> 
> Send the link to tournament please. Thanks


West Coast Classic....been this way for years.....7 games in 30 hours is insanity


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## Messi>CR7 (Aug 12, 2022)

watfly said:


> My totally unproven theory is that its the lack of available round studded shoes (not talking about the indoor turf shoes) and the popularity of the "cool" cleats which are mostly bladed, I think in large part to save weight.  But again this is just speculation.


For some reason shoe companies do not make the round/conical studded shoes readily available in the US.  If you go to Nike's UK website, it has a distinct "AG" category with shoes that have conical studs.  In its US site it only has the "MG" category and they are mostly blades.

I bought my kid' shoes with conical studs from Amazon UK.  You can find some decent deals if you don't need the shoes in a hurry.


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## Soccer Dad & Ref (Aug 12, 2022)

futboldad1 said:


> West Coast Classic....been this way for years.....7 games in 30 hours is insanity


Weird, my daughter's team is playing 3 guaranteed games, and a 4th if successful.  Seems most brackets are that way.


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## Soccer Dad & Ref (Aug 12, 2022)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> Weird, my daughter's team is playing 3 guaranteed games, and a 4th if successful.  Seems most brackets are that way.


Wow, I'm seeing the G05/05 bracket, and i see what Venantsyo is saying.  Game Sunday late morning, semis at 4pm, and final at 7:30pm.

Crazy.  C and D brackets are getting screwed more than the A and B brackets


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## paytoplay (Aug 12, 2022)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> Wow, I'm seeing the G05/05 bracket, and i see what Venantsyo is saying.  Game Sunday late morning, semis at 4pm, and final at 7:30pm.
> 
> Crazy.  C and D brackets are getting screwed more than the A and B brackets


Clubs really showing their true commitment to player’s health and well-being! And this weekend is going to be hot!


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## Soccer Cat (Aug 12, 2022)

Venantsyo said:


> Well known tournament this upcoming weekend: for G04/05 up to 5 games… in 2 days.
> Sunday 3 games in 7 hours.


Which tourney?


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## Venantsyo (Aug 12, 2022)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> Crazy.  C and D brackets are getting screwed more than the A and B brackets


Which is where my DD is. 
I might have to root against her team…


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