# Criterion for Appropriate Teams to Tryout With



## Woodwork (Nov 6, 2017)

So our DD, like many of yours, just finished up her fall season.  She was the most skilled player on a Bronze/F3 team and the most productive player goals wise (and played forward less than half the season), and it really wasn't even close. DD's time in Bronze/F3 will be done after this, but it will be without this team earning promotion.  That being said, I am hoping for some feedback from the board on how to approach her tryouts and choose an appropriate Silver or F2/F1 team.  After eliminating some teams due to poor club management and coaching, there are basically 3 choices:

1. Flight 2 team.  Great coach.  Essentially all the team played together 7v7 last year at flight 2 and they picked up a few new, but club experienced, players.  They underperformed this year, but could have finished in the middle of the pack with one goal in a few games.  That makes me think that they could use my DD.  However, they have a full roster (14) and not much turnover.

2.  Flight 2 team.  Great coach.  Similar to team 1 in terms of the commitment of the players from year to year.  They were selective with their roster and didn't overload the bench, though they could have.  They dominated flight 3 and will do well in flight 2.  However, they score tons of goals and don't really "need" another skilled player.

3. Flight 1 club soccer team.  Good experienced coach.  Team underperformed and needed a goal here and there to be in the top part of the table.  Needs someone with my DD's skillset but I am unsure whether DD's skills will translate to flight 1.  Had only 2 subs on the bench and was looking for at least one more at the beginning of Fall.  Notably, this is the "A" team to the current club's "B" team (this is not a club where the A team poaches from the B team - coaches are allowed to be territorial over their recruits).

Your thoughts are appreciated.  Thank you very much.


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## Woodwork (Nov 6, 2017)

And not trying to be presumptuous, by the way.  Thoughts that she may have to just be forced to take what she can get, because these aren't realistic options, are also appreciated.


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## Frank (Nov 6, 2017)

Option 3. Play at the highest level she can handle and still progress. Way more options in selecting a team and coach however not being the best on the team and developing with better players should help her.


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## socalkdg (Nov 7, 2017)

Woodwork said:


> However, they score tons of goals and don't really "need" another skilled player.
> 
> Your thoughts are appreciated.  Thank you very much.


First, isn't the goal to have every player be a skilled player.   Defense, mid, forwards, the more skill the whole team has the better for passing, playing out of the back, etc.   

Since your kid is still young, go with the best coach that both you and your kid like.  The object right now is to get better technically, and to keep enjoying the game.


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## MWN (Nov 7, 2017)

Based on your description above, I see you making a few "new" soccer parent mistakes regarding what is important.  At the U-Little stage (7v7 and 9v9), many parents put importance on wins and goals.  At this stage, as you have personally witnessed in a few games, all it takes is a few fast/good players to dominate games, thus, skewing goals.  Teams play "over the top" to Jenny who runs past the slow defenders and scores.  Parents of Jenny feel good, but this is not developing anybody.

I referee many 7v7 games and some of the best coaches have teams with little athletic skill that get killed game after game because the coach sticks with the philosophy of moving the ball regardless of score.  Other teams have dumb-ass coaches with 1 or 2 athletic kids that do all the heavy lifting, they scream and yell and challenge the referee and say incredible dumb stuff like "Bobby, what are you THINKING!!!!" when Bobby just made a bad pass.  I want to strangle these idiots. 

Your criteria in order should be:

A coach that knows how to coach young kids (hint ... this person makes it fun, doesn't scream and yell, doesn't demean and generally makes the kids feel good ... win or lose).
A coaching philosophy that doesn't place wins and loses over development.  A coach that works on switching the field, connecting passes, thinking like a soccer player v. kick ball to the fast kid.  Do the kids want to go to practice and develop skills because practice is fun?  If yes, this is your coach.
A Club that has higher level opportunities (Flight 1 through 3) and a philosophy of moving players up (and down) season to season.  Does club field teams in the ECNL or Girls DA or another comparable league (US Club Soccer)?
You make a comment that concerns me in Option 2 and I implore you to change you thinking.  Your comment is "... they score tons of goals and don't really "need" another skilled player."  Skilled players at 7v7 are those that can play every position from forward, to mid, to defender to goalkeeper.  This is what you want for your player.  Play every single position, understand each positions role ... yes, even goalkeeper.  This is truly a skilled player and there isn't a coach in this universe that doesn't need that because few teams actually have rounded skilled players.

Finally, and to reinforce the above point above, puberty is a cruel, cruel thing for girls (more so than the boys).  Once the girls hit 11 to 12 years of age, the slow kid becomes a lanky speedster, the tall girl that played goalkeeper stops growing and now is the shortest kid on the pitch and nobody needs a 5'2" goalkeeper at the higher levels, that skilled player that was the fastest girl is now just average, etc., etc.  Don't pigeon hole your daughter into any one position until after puberty.

Find a coach that understands the above.


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## Fact (Nov 7, 2017)

Frank said:


> Option 3. Play at the highest level she can handle and still progress. Way more options in selecting a team and coach however not being the best on the team and developing with better players should help her.


It is very important that while also not being the best player on the team , you don't want to be in the bottom half.  Somewhere in the middle with a starting position and a good amount of playing time.  It is hard to develop when you are on a high performing team, but sitting on the bench.


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> First, isn't the goal to have every player be a skilled player.   Defense, mid, forwards, the more skill the whole team has the better for passing, playing out of the back, etc.
> 
> Since your kid is still young, go with the best coach that both you and your kid like.  The object right now is to get better technically, and to keep enjoying the game.


Thanks.  You are right that any team wants a skilled player.  My concern is having too much bench depth and playing time.  She would make any flight 1 team she tried out for, but she would rather get playing time on a worse team than be planted on the bench on an established team.  There should be some balance stricken in this regard, though.  In a certain sense, a lot of technical development happens by getting to learn during real games.   At the same time, if other kids have no sense of position or don't put in the effort, she doesn't really learn either, and training is too low level.


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

MWN said:


> Based on your description above, I see you making a few "new" soccer parent mistakes regarding what is important.  At the U-Little stage (7v7 and 9v9), many parents put importance on wins and goals.  At this stage, as you have personally witnessed in a few games, all it takes is a few fast/good players to dominate games, thus, skewing goals.  Teams play "over the top" to Jenny who runs past the slow defenders and scores.  Parents of Jenny feel good, but this is not developing anybody.
> 
> I referee many 7v7 games and some of the best coaches have teams with little athletic skill that get killed game after game because the coach sticks with the philosophy of moving the ball regardless of score.  Other teams have dumb-ass coaches with 1 or 2 athletic kids that do all the heavy lifting, they scream and yell and challenge the referee and say incredible dumb stuff like "Bobby, what are you THINKING!!!!" when Bobby just made a bad pass.  I want to strangle these idiots.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  She has played every position, including goalie.  She has been in club several years.  She has a clear preference at this point.  My concern in No. 2 is just regarding playing time, at any position.  There are some teams where it seems like they have 12 defenders and some teams where it seems like they have 12 forwards.  If my kid preferred to play defense, I would look for the latter.  

I'm not pigeonholing.  She has a preference.  I am just looking to keep her interested and happy, and to let her develop where she has the interest.  She played a position earlier in the year where she was a key player and built her skills, but she was ready to quit.  For now (though it could always change), it seems she can do well in an advanced position.

The list I provided is pre-filtered. We have been, and will be, observing coaches.  Teams and clubs who don't treat their kids well are not on this list.


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

Fact said:


> It is very important that while also not being the best player on the team , you don't want to be in the bottom half.  Somewhere in the middle with a starting position and a good amount of playing time.  It is hard to develop when you are on a high performing team, but sitting on the bench.


I agree.  Playing time is hard to gauge, though.  I suppose my concern is that none of the options are perfect.  The Flight 1 team has a need, for sure, but I worry about the sudden increase in competition being a lot all at once.  (It seems wrong to not give her the chance to rise to the occasion, though.  That seems like negative parenting.)

The Flight 2 team in paragraph No. 1 very clearly needs a player like her, and we love the coach (through limited experience). But, that is seriously a full bench.  Again, perhaps I should allow my daughter to rise to the occasion - but the bench size still worries me.  Also, who knows if they'll have space next year, with such a full bench!  This is for me to talk with the coach about, though.

The Flight 2 team in paragraph No. 2 will probably have the space, doesn't stack the bench, but I worry about integration.  That team is clicking, mostly together for a few years.  DD may be the odd kid out.

How much should I worry about space/bench size?  Should I be putting a coach in a position to be cutting kids who were on the team last year, if that is our preferred team?  Is that something they do much?


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## Eagle33 (Nov 7, 2017)

Woodwork said:


> I agree.  Playing time is hard to gauge, though.  I suppose my concern is that none of the options are perfect.  The Flight 1 team has a need, for sure, but I worry about the sudden increase in competition being a lot all at once.  (It seems wrong to not give her the chance to rise to the occasion, though.  That seems like negative parenting.)
> 
> The Flight 2 team in paragraph No. 1 very clearly needs a player like her, and we love the coach (through limited experience). But, that is seriously a full bench.  Again, perhaps I should allow my daughter to rise to the occasion - but the bench size still worries me.  Also, who knows if they'll have space next year, with such a full bench!  This is for me to talk with the coach about, though.
> 
> ...


If your player that good, why would you worry about roster size or bench size?


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> If your player that good, why would you worry about roster size or bench size?


Once you get to a certain level, they are all good.  Mine isn't a phenom.  She has the ability to be dangerous anywhere just due to the way the ball sticks to her foot, even at full sprint (which is fast), and due to the pressure she applies to opposing defenses when the opposing team is in possession.  She is pretty relentless, with an engine that doesn't quit.  Some teams need this more than others.  Some of my concern regarding bench size is hedging bets, more opportunity to play even if competition is stiff.

I am also concerned with more than just starting.  She would be happier on a mid-level team playing in a two-way/offensive position than on a dominant team that plays her 100% in back (and at this age I'm still not seeing a lot of overlapping fullback runs, no matter how much coaches talk about it).

I don't want to overstate the case.  There was a reason we kept her at flight 3, but I severely overestimated the quality of this flight this year.  At times, she could basically dribble through 5 or six players and put a game to bed at flight 3 - even the better flight 3 teams.  That is unlikely to happen in Flight 1.  She wouldn't be the top scorer on a team with a capable scorer.  But, I could see her being a threat at any level and giving a flight 1 or 2 team that is missing that little bit of speed, tenacity, and creativity, if they don't already have enough of it.  Two of these teams look so close to being good, but are just missing a little bite.


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## Mystery Train (Nov 7, 2017)

MWN said:


> Finally, and to reinforce the above point above, puberty is a cruel, cruel thing for girls (more so than the boys). Once the girls hit 11 to 12 years of age, the slow kid becomes a lanky speedster, the tall girl that played goalkeeper stops growing and now is the shortest kid on the pitch and nobody needs a 5'2" goalkeeper at the higher levels, that skilled player that was the fastest girl is now just average, etc., etc. Don't pigeon hole your daughter into any one position until after puberty.


This could not be more true.  

My .02 to the OP:  at this age don't include the flights as a criteria at all.  I know that's hard to do, especially if you think she's not being challenged at F3, but trust me on this one.  It means next to nothing at the youngers level. If the F1 team's coach is not as good as either of the F2 coaches, then eliminate them from consideration.  The only thing that "translates" to F1 at the youngers level is size and speed.  But mostly just size.  Decide who is the best coach to develop her skills.  Stick with that coach until u14/15 regardless of flight.  Then, if she's still a stud after puberty disrupts the pecking order, go find the "best" most competitive team possible for her to get playing time on.   

P.S. Guest play with lots of teams.  Play up in age group.  These experiences did tons to help us figure out where our kid fit in the competitive landscape.


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## timbuck (Nov 7, 2017)

Also hard to base your decision on what a team's roster looks like right now. 
Good chance that a few players on each team are looking around too.


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> This could not be more true.
> 
> My .02 to the OP:  at this age don't include the flights as a criteria at all.  I know that's hard to do, especially if you think she's not being challenged at F3, but trust me on this one.  It means next to nothing at the youngers level. If the F1 team's coach is not as good as either of the F2 coaches, then eliminate them from consideration.  The only thing that "translates" to F1 at the youngers level is size and speed.  But mostly just size.  Decide who is the best coach to develop her skills.  Stick with that coach until u14/15 regardless of flight.  Then, if she's still a stud after puberty disrupts the pecking order, go find the "best" most competitive team possible for her to get playing time on.
> 
> P.S. Guest play with lots of teams.  Play up in age group.  These experiences did tons to help us figure out where our kid fit in the competitive landscape.


Thank you all so very much.  This is very helpful advice and insight.
I think you are right that guest-playing is probably the best way to figure out where she fits in.

Interesting observation regarding size. I think that is a lot of the issue for the teams in F1/2 that are struggling - they tend to be smaller on average.  Mine is wiry and not tall, but she started as the youngest before the age group change.  She had to learn to be a bit more clever and surprisingly quick to survive.  We certainly want her to stay on that course, so I wouldn't mind her having to play with some more physically imposing players to keep her from getting lazy.


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## Woodwork (Nov 7, 2017)

timbuck said:


> Also hard to base your decision on what a team's roster looks like right now.
> Good chance that a few players on each team are looking around too.


Hopefully.  In the past, it has seemed like some teams don't have much turnover. It seems odd to be looking at them right now and asking to train with them for a day when who knows if they'll have a spot.


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## Not_that_Serious (Nov 7, 2017)

MWN said:


> Based on your description above, I see you making a few "new" soccer parent mistakes regarding what is important.  At the U-Little stage (7v7 and 9v9), many parents put importance on wins and goals.  At this stage, as you have personally witnessed in a few games, all it takes is a few fast/good players to dominate games, thus, skewing goals.  Teams play "over the top" to Jenny who runs past the slow defenders and scores.  Parents of Jenny feel good, but this is not developing anybody.
> 
> I referee many 7v7 games and some of the best coaches have teams with little athletic skill that get killed game after game because the coach sticks with the philosophy of moving the ball regardless of score.  Other teams have dumb-ass coaches with 1 or 2 athletic kids that do all the heavy lifting, they scream and yell and challenge the referee and say incredible dumb stuff like "Bobby, what are you THINKING!!!!" when Bobby just made a bad pass.  I want to strangle these idiots.
> 
> ...



This.

Just have to keep in mind a few things.

A) Child might not be ready 2 jump from Flight 3 to Flight 1. Have to be realistic. Game speed much different. Not just about how fast your child can run. How fast with the ball at their feet, how they finish, etc.

B) Coaches/Clubs often say anything for you to join. opps to play at other flight levels but can be difficult at times given scheduling and rules. can only play on the field on different days - unless you are a goalkeeper.

C) No point being on a flight 1 team just to say "im flight 1" - more important to play. Smart parents often ask to be dropped to lower flights if they arent playing much.

D) Some coaches might not have a say (pull or relationships) to place kids at higher levels if they are performing well. Rarely see kids coach all the teams at an age group. Some coaches dont like passing players because they are paranoid theyll get poached - even within their own club.


MWN said:


> Based on your description above, I see you making a few "new" soccer parent mistakes regarding what is important.  At the U-Little stage (7v7 and 9v9), many parents put importance on wins and goals.  At this stage, as you have personally witnessed in a few games, all it takes is a few fast/good players to dominate games, thus, skewing goals.  Teams play "over the top" to Jenny who runs past the slow defenders and scores.  Parents of Jenny feel good, but this is not developing anybody.
> 
> I referee many 7v7 games and some of the best coaches have teams with little athletic skill that get killed game after game because the coach sticks with the philosophy of moving the ball regardless of score.  Other teams have dumb-ass coaches with 1 or 2 athletic kids that do all the heavy lifting, they scream and yell and challenge the referee and say incredible dumb stuff like "Bobby, what are you THINKING!!!!" when Bobby just made a bad pass.  I want to strangle these idiots.
> 
> ...


This. For the most part.
Just have to keep in mind a few things.

A) Child might not be ready 2 jump from Flight 3 to Flight 1. Have to be realistic. Game speed much different. Not just about how fast your child can run. How fast with the ball at their feet, how they finish, etc. Havent seen anyone at fligjt 3 jump to 1 in same season - then the question would be why were they at f3? Still need time to move to f1 unless kid is a phenom athlete.

B) Coaches/Clubs often say anything for you to join. opps to play at other flight levels but can be difficult at times given scheduling and rules. can only play on the field on different days - unless you are a goalkeeper. 

C) No point being on a flight 1 team just to say "im flight 1" - more important to play. Smart parents often ask to be dropped to lower flights if they arent playing much. 

D) Some coaches might not have a say (pull or relationships) to place kids at higher levels if they are performing well. Rarely see kids coach all the teams at an age group at a club. Some coaches dont like passing players because they are paranoid theyll get poached - even within their own club.

Kid needs to be happy. Technique should be priority. Puberty evens thimgs out later for most


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## Dos Equis (Nov 7, 2017)

The feedback has been thoughtful and represents a ton of experience. Glad to see the forum providing valuable feedback. 

As some have hinted at, an important priority at your DD's age is enjoyment and fostering a love for the game.  It needs to be fun, and she needs to own that decision. Ask her what she wants. Odds are, whatever her choice, you can build on it and keep her future options open.


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