# Girls ACL torn



## SDSteve760 (Sep 28, 2016)

so unfortunatley my 13 year old daughter just completely tore her ACL. From anyone's perspective out there what can we expect before returning? Like how long ? What can we do to make it be more successful? Extra training when further along in rehab? The doctor is saying 8 months post op before she will be able to play? Is this realistic? Can she return as strong as before assuming she puts the work in? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks


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## Kicker4Life (Sep 28, 2016)

@SDSteve760, first, I'm truly sorry to hear about your DD.  I've completely torn my Rt. ACL 3x's, the first time being when I was 17. To answer your question, yes, she can come back to 100% but time, patience and hard work are the 3 main factors.  DO NOT let her push herself too hard. I promise you, it does more harm than good (it set me back 6 additional months the first surgery).  

Another fellow forum member and friend's DD tore hers 2 months ago and he shares his experience ina thread in the 2004 group:  http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/the-day-the-game-stopped-tech-specs.298/. 

Hope it helps and again, truly sorry to hear about the injury!


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## SDSteve760 (Sep 28, 2016)

Kicker4Life said:


> @SDSteve760, first, I'm truly sorry to hear about your DD.  I've completely torn my Rt. ACL 3x's, the first time being when I was 17. To answer your question, yes, she can come back to 100% but time, patience and hard work are the 3 main factors.  DO NOT let her push herself too hard. I promise you, it does more harm than good (it set me back 6 additional months the first surgery).
> 
> Another fellow forum member and friend's DD tore hers 2 months ago and he shares his experience ina thread in the 2004 group:  http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/the-day-the-game-stopped-tech-specs.298/.
> 
> Hope it helps and again, truly sorry to hear about the injury!


Thanks you for the well wishes I read the thread and it's amazing.


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## Surfref (Sep 28, 2016)

SDSteve760 said:


> so unfortunatley my 13 year old daughter just completely tore her ACL. From anyone's perspective out there what can we expect before returning? Like how long ? What can we do to make it be more successful? Extra training when further along in rehab? The doctor is saying 8 months post op before she will be able to play? Is this realistic? Can she return as strong as before assuming she puts the work in? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks


Of course a good experienced doctor should be the first priority.  We have had friends kids with ACL and MCL tears.  My DD partially tore her MCL last October.  The smartest thing we did was have her go to a physical therapist that works with athletes.  Don't rush the recovery.  My DD's doctor told her she could start playing a couple hours a week when she was at 5 months post injury with a brace.  It took 8 months for her to get back to 100 percent without surgery. The physical therapist said absolutely not.  They did not want to push her until she had full strength and mobility back.  The physical therapist also had her work total body strength and agility.  This kept her in shape and made the recovery easier since she did not have to get her entire body back in shape once the MCL was healed.  The made sure her running mechanics ant gait was still proper to avoid back problems.  We used Rehab United in San Diego.  She also started working with a trainer for 6 weeks before she even started playing on a field against other players.  She continued the trainer and PT until she was complete healed and strong.  We used The Catalyst Training Center in San Diego.  My DD also saw a sports psychologist once a week for two months.  This helped her with the negative thoughts of am I ever going to heal and will I be as good as before.  There will be a lot of ups and downs.

Good luck with the recovery.  Be patient, diligent, and supportive.


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## timbuck (Sep 28, 2016)

Sorry to hear about this.   I hope that her recovery is quick and that she comes back stronger than ever.  If you haven't read it yet, pick up a copy of the book "Warrior Girls".

I had a physical therapist come and talk to our gu12 team last night.  She talked alot about ACL/MCL tears in young athletes.  It was a good talk for the parents and players.

A few questions (if you'd rather not answer, I totally understand):
1.  I assume it happened during a soccer activity.  Was it at a game or practice?
2. Was there contact with another player?
3.  Has your DD experienced a noticeable growth spurt in the last few months (height or weight)?
4.  How many games did she play in the weekend (I'm assuming it was a weekend game) she got hurt?
5.  Any prior complaints about knee, hip or ankle issues?
6.  How many days per week does she participate in soccer activities?
7.  Was she involved with any type of strength or flexibility program?  (Either as part of soccer practice or outside of it).
8.  Does she (or has she) played any other sport?
9.  How many games (tournament, league, friendlies) has she played in the last 12 months?
10.  Any other serious (required a cast or surgery) injuries?


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## SDSteve760 (Sep 28, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Of course a good experienced doctor should be the first priority.  We have had friends kids with ACL and MCL tears.  My DD partially tore her MCL last October.  The smartest thing we did was have her go to a physical therapist that works with athletes.  Don't rush the recovery.  My DD's doctor told her she could start playing a couple hours a week when she was at 5 months post injury with a brace.  It took 8 months for her to get back to 100 percent without surgery. The physical therapist said absolutely not.  They did not want to push her until she had full strength and mobility back.  The physical therapist also had her work total body strength and agility.  This kept her in shape and made the recovery easier since she did not have to get her entire body back in shape once the MCL was healed.  The made sure her running mechanics ant gait was still proper to avoid back problems.  We used Rehab United in San Diego.  She also started working with a trainer for 6 weeks before she even started playing on a field against other players.  She continued the trainer and PT until she was complete healed and strong.  We used The Catalyst Training Center in San Diego.  My DD also saw a sports psychologist once a week for two months.  This helped her with the negative thoughts of am I ever going to heal and will I be as good as before.  There will be a lot of ups and downs.
> 
> Good luck with the recovery.  Be patient, diligent, and supportive.


Thank you for your support and sharing your experience. We have Kaiser so I was thinking the early stages post op use there PT whom is a sports guy then in the later stages get someone who specializes in soccer in addition to the strength and agility to build her core strength before we even think about her hitting the field again. Thing is she's a freshman so fully recovery is very important because she still has years to play. This is definitely something not to be rushed. Her knee is forever and soccer is not.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 28, 2016)

Really sorry to hear about your DD's injury.  My best wishes for a full recovery.  (knocks on wood) I don't have any personal experience as a parent or patient when it comes to ACL tears, but I am curious to know the answer to Timbuck's question about how many games/practices etc. she'd had leading up to the injury.  My daughter went 5-6 years without a single injury, but this year with the tryout circuit, more club practices, HS soccer tryouts, and now a second HS sport, she's suddenly had multiple injuries.  All of them seemingly random and unrelated.  I think that fatigue played a huge factor.  Not cardiovascular or muscular fatigue, which you can see, but a fatigue of the tendons and bones that you can't really notice.  She seems like she's got plenty of energy, but all the contact and impact takes a toll.  Like when Kobe Bryant blew out his Achilles.  They say it is a "freak" injury, but I believe such things seem to happen more when the body doesn't have ample recovery time over the long haul.  In my personal experience with ligament injuries I highly recommend yoga once her PT will allow it.  The flexibility and strength improvements will add years to her joints.   I once read that NFL RB Jamal Lewis swore by yoga after his first ACL injury.  Good luck!


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## Frank (Sep 28, 2016)

SDSteve760 said:


> so unfortunatley my 13 year old daughter just completely tore her ACL. From anyone's perspective out there what can we expect before returning? Like how long ? What can we do to make it be more successful? Extra training when further along in rehab? The doctor is saying 8 months post op before she will be able to play? Is this realistic? Can she return as strong as before assuming she puts the work in? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks


I had the surgery at 21yo from a college soccer injury.  You may be able to get back in 8-10 months, however I think it took me 18 months to be mentally through it and play without thinking or protecting it.  Unfortunately it is a lifelong injury and the knee will never be the same. There will be clean up surgeries.  My main error in my rehab that i regret today is I didn't get full flexibility back in the rehab.   Again that has been a lifelong issue.  make sure she gets the flexibility back and builds quad strength.  

I also wore a brace for many years post injury


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## NoGoal (Sep 28, 2016)

Send Madcow (a poster on the 1999/1998 age group) a PM.  His DD went through 2 ACL surgeries...he is very knowledgable and a would be a great resource for you.  I wish your DD a successful surgery and a speedy recovery.  My DD's Loma Linda ortho treated my DD for a partial patella tendon tear.....recommended a PRP shot.  He told my wife when he performs a ACL surgery, he now includes a PRP therapy shot after surgery to speed up the healing process.  Something you may want to inquire about whomever you elect to perform your DDs surgery, but whatever you do DO NOT have her rush back.


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## SDSteve760 (Sep 28, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Sorry to hear about this.   I hope that her recovery is quick and that she comes back stronger than ever.  If you haven't read it yet, pick up a copy of the book "Warrior Girls".
> 
> I had a physical therapist come and talk to our gu12 team last night.  She talked alot about ACL/MCL tears in young athletes.  It was a good talk for the parents and players.
> 
> ...


1. Soccer practice
2. Yes there was a collision
3. No real growth spurt 
4. She was hurt at a Monday practice
We played 2 CSL games that weekend 1 Sat 1 Sun
5. No prior injuries
6. Soccer activities 5 days a week leading up to injury
7. No , just running on off days. She will be before she plays again after learning what I've learned.
8. She played softball but hasn't for 2 years
9. Can't count last 12 months sorry a lot though.
10. No other injuries.
Thanks for your well wishes. I hope in the future I can be as helpful as everyone here to someone else.


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## Surfref (Sep 29, 2016)

SDSteve760 said:


> Thank you for your support and sharing your experience. We have Kaiser so I was thinking the early stages post op use there PT whom is a sports guy then in the later stages get someone who specializes in soccer in addition to the strength and agility to build her core strength before we even think about her hitting the field again. Thing is she's a freshman so fully recovery is very important because she still has years to play. This is definitely something not to be rushed. Her knee is forever and soccer is not.


Be careful with Kaiser.  My DD had three teammates on her last two club teams that had to use Kaiser for surgery (2- ACL, 1- Torn Bicep muscle (keeper)).  One ACL was cleared too soon and quickly tore it again.  The other ACL's initial surgery was screwed up and had to be fixed two months later and tore again about a year after she was cleared.  The bicep tore again about three months after she started playing again.  The two knee injuries seemed to be cleared too early and were told they could play with a knee brace.

Just please be proactive with Kaiser and don't let them dictate her recovery.  The parents for all three of my DD teammates sued Kaiser.  They said that Kaiser would not authorize the appropriate number of physical therapy sessions and cutoff rehab too early.  They settled out of court.


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## SDSteve760 (Sep 29, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Be careful with Kaiser.  My DD had three teammates on her last two club teams that had to use Kaiser for surgery (2- ACL, 1- Torn Bicep muscle (keeper)).  One ACL was cleared too soon and quickly tore it again.  The other ACL's initial surgery was screwed up and had to be fixed two months later and tore again about a year after she was cleared.  The bicep tore again about three months after she started playing again.  The two knee injuries seemed to be cleared too early and were told they could play with a knee brace.
> 
> Just please be proactive with Kaiser and don't let them dictate her recovery.  The parents for all three of my DD teammates sued Kaiser.  They said that Kaiser would not authorize the appropriate number of physical therapy sessions and cutoff rehab too early.  They settled out of court.


Thank you for this info. We only plan on doing the initial 4  months of rehab at Kaiser then seeking out specialized PT with a qualified sports therapist. In addition when she is able will do session of strength and agility before she ever hits the field. We want to give her the best chance possible to be successful and fully recover. We are in North San Diego county if anyone has referrals I could look into. Thanks in advanced.


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## tjsoccer (Sep 29, 2016)

SDSteve760 said:


> Thank you for this info. We only plan on doing the initial 4  months of rehab at Kaiser then seeking out specialized PT with a qualified sports therapist. In addition when she is able will do session of strength and agility before she ever hits the field. We want to give her the best chance possible to be successful and fully recover. We are in North San Diego county if anyone has referrals I could look into. Thanks in advanced.


Sorry to hear that.  I have one that age that had surgery in April.  Different problem, but similar recovery.  

The first month after surgery is critical.  Here in Northern California (where I'm from), Kaiser only schedules their PT's to a 15 minute consultation.  In that session, they did not measure range of motion, watch the kid do the exercise, or seem to have any of the modern PT tools around (cup therapy, weightless treadmills, ice compression machines).  Its a printout out and some demonstrations....and come back in a week to see how its going.  And we were driving to that particular Kaiser because it had been recommended as the "Sports Therapy" Kaiser in our area.    

We lasted a couple of sessions at Kaiser before moving to a private practice.  The trigger point was the PT's unwillingness to follow the Doctor's protocol.  The doc had called for the immobilizer to be unlocked...allowing for 20 degree range of motion after a period (can't remember how long).  The Kaiser PT refused to do it stating the protocol was too aggressive.  Luckily, I think we got out of Kaiser before too much scar tissue built up.  The private practice followed the Doctor's protocol and started moving the leg as prescribed.    

At Kaiser, we were charge $65 for the 15 minute consultation.  At the private practice, $60 got us an hour and a half, all of the modern tools, and a dedicated professional that watched her perform her exercises and made adjustments as she improved.   At Kaiser, it was weekly sessions after surgery...at the private practice it was twice a week in that initial period, just as the doc had prescribed.  

I'm not saying your Kaiser experience will be the same, but go in with your eyes open.  I think there is a lot of corporate pressure to keep costs down.


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## *GOBEARGO* (Sep 29, 2016)

Frank said:


> I had the surgery at 21yo from a college soccer injury.  You may be able to get back in 8-10 months, however I think it took me 18 months to be mentally through it and play without thinking or protecting it.  Unfortunately it is a lifelong injury and the knee will never be the same. There will be clean up surgeries.  My main error in my rehab that i regret today is I didn't get full flexibility back in the rehab.   Again that has been a lifelong issue.  make sure she gets the flexibility back and builds quad strength.
> 
> I also wore a brace for many years post injury



This is by far the best advice on this subject. Print this and reference it. Mentally will be THE biggest challenge to recovery.


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## baldref (Sep 29, 2016)

my daughter tore her acl at a camp, no contact, just cutting. took her well over a year to come back, although there was a complication to her surgery and she had to get a "tune up" before she could start rehab. she was 16, and as a 16 year old she wasn't a pro athlete, with the discipline and team of people pushing her. my focus was to get her a "decent" knee to live the rest of her life on, not necessarily to play soccer at the level she played prior to her injury. it was well over a year before she played again, and never quite back to the same level as she was before. i think, it's all about priorities and what you want to get out of the experience. i think, it depends a lot on the surgeon, and who or what you want to use to rehab. if you're looking to get back to her being a top level athlete, you might want to seek therapy and rehab outside of any HMO. but being she's very young, you might prioritize differently.  whatever you do, i think, you need to allow more time than anyone tells you, and to be sure everything is solid in her knee prior to trying to be an athlete again, if that's her goal. 

my daughter still complains about her knee, years later, but it is solid and she can do most anything she wants on it. 

best of luck to you, as i know what a bummer it is. solid knee first. athlete if she wants......


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## SoccerLife12 (Sep 29, 2016)

My daughter tore her ACL a month before she turned 15 last Aug and had her surgery 1 year ago Sept 25. At 6 months she was cleared by her orthopedic surgeon to start practicing again.  She started one-on-one training a few weeks before she was cleared and started practicing again right after she was cleared (just drills until 8 1/2 months post surgery before full contact). She also started back at beach VB wearing a brace at about 7 months.  She was back 100% by about 10 months,  but she still wears a brace for her piece of mind (not because she needs it). She probably will for awhile because in her mind, it's better than re-tearing it which has happened to a few of her friends after they stopped wearing the brace.  As far as PT, hers that was covered by insurance was good, but we were recommended another place by her beach volleyball coach.  This place was awesome in getting her back to play soccer, volleyball,  and beach volleyball. Not covered by our insurance but way worth the money.  They have done PT for Chargers, Padres, and of the women's national team players.  Her muscles were sore and she could barely walk coming out, but her legs were stronger then before she got hurt. She now does a prevention program,  plus does balancing on a bosu ball as well as an indo board almost daily.  I've read and talked to people who have had ACL tears with surgery and most of the time people don't get back, it's mental.  I tore my ACL playing soccer 12 years ago and had the exact same surgery my daughter had and I started back at 8 1/2 months, but then I didn't have college soccer scholarships to worry about.


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## SoccerLife12 (Sep 29, 2016)

*GOBEARGO* said:


> This is by far the best advice on this subject. Print this and reference it. Mentally will be THE biggest challenge to recovery.


Mental is definitely the biggest challenge, but there are prevention programs out there as well. All youth club, high school, and college coaches need to incorporate these into their warm ups and training.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 30, 2016)

I'll be talking to my daughter's coach about the FIFA 11+ warm up program.  Searching online, it seems that there is verifiable research to show that implementation greatly reduces injury rates, especially for women.  From the link to the British Journal of Sports Medicine: 

Performing the FIFA 11+ as a standard warm up reduces the injury risk in young female football players.


Compliance with the programme (at least twice a week) is a key to successful injury prevention.


The coach is the key person to promote FIFA 11+ to his/her players.


There is limited knowledge on performance effects of FIFA 11+.

FIFA 11+ Program:
http://f-marc.com/11plus/manual/
Narrative review:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/49/9/577.long


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## Simisoccerfan (Sep 30, 2016)

Both our HS and Club teams follow this program.  The club team also has a D1 trainer once a week focused only on fitness and core work.


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## madcow (Oct 2, 2016)

Thanks NoGoal. Unfortunately, she has had 3 ACL surgeries, not 2 
The best pieces of advice I can give are:

12 months before you return. Period. The coach for USC told us to wait a month after surgery, but her Dr. told us 6 months. Who do you believe, a soccer coach or a Dr.? Now I know... the soccer coach. 2 surgeries later and a year of recovery was exactly what she needed.
Skip Kaiser's PT. Go to a sports PT group. I used Rehab United after the 3rd surgery and she was stronger than she was before her first surgery. Well worth the money. Go right after the surgery. They had her doing things Kaiser never would have tried that early after surgery and her recovery was better because of it.
The mental part is hard. My daughter struggled with having her identity wrapped around being a soccer player. Being out for 3 years made her question who she was. The physical part of the game was the easiest part for her. Her school trainer recommended we send her to a sports psychologist. She went and the psychologist was shocked when she said "if I get hurt, I'll have a 4th surgery." His only concern was how would she react if she never got as good as she hoped to be. That is where she is having the toughest time. She has been on her butt for 3 years and is trying to keep up with girls who have been playing nonstop for 3 years. 
If your daughter has dreams of playing in college, missing your freshman year is not bad. Missing your sophomore and junior years... different story.


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## pewpew (Oct 3, 2016)

Not sure if your DD had her surgery yet. Tore my knee up 2x times playing HS football. Finally had to have surgery after two more injuries after HS. The last injury happening one month before I was supposed to ship out for Boot Camp for USMC. Never made it.  
MCL and meniscus were done. Needed surgery.
Any way..my brother-in-law happened to go in for knee surgery 1 month before I did. They gave him the option of general anesthesia or spinal and he'd be awake. He chose general. During recovery his head hurt so bad for a few hours that he said if they'd offered him a gun he would've considered using it, his pain was that bad. He obviously had a reaction to the anesthesia. Seeing what he went through I chose the spinal.
BIG MISTAKE. For whatever reason..it took years for me to recover from the back pain. I'd wake up sore and stiff. I'd walk down the hall hunched over to get to the bathroom. Wash my face hunched over. It would take 30-60 mins to limber up and feel comfortable. Used to be a stomach sleeper. Took years to go back to sleeping on my stomach again. Just something to think about if they give you options for her anesthesia. That was back in 1992. Not sure how much the technology has changed, but I'm sure they've made some leaps and bounds all around. Good luck and hope she recovers without any problems. Nothing worse than watching our kids go through stuff like this.


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## tjsoccer (Oct 4, 2016)

Another decision you could be faced with is the Autograft (own tissue) vs. Allograft (cadaver).  For young people, Autografts are more common, but it means a longer recovery.  I had mine done with my own Patella tendon and it hasn't given me trouble for 25 years.  

Building the hamstring is very important.  Dujuan Blair played many years in the NBA for the Spurs, and he didn't have a single ACL in his body.  Strength training was credited:  

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/sports/basketball/13dejuan.html?_r=0


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## charlie murphy (Oct 4, 2016)

First, you do not need to rush to have the repair! ( If she was the elite athlete, ie. MRI in the tunnel and helicopter to surgical suite within 48 hours is supported in literature). For the rest of us, the long term outcome is better if you let the trauma to the knee quite. She can and should still bike and do quite low velocity exercise to maintain strength and flexibility. Remember the stronger into the surgery the stronger she will be coming out. Some degree of muscle atrophy will occur, so build ( don't lose)  strength so she will have a cushion. Look at your timelines too. Can you fit this into a school break ( thanksgiving or Christmas), to avoid missing school.  Do your research on the "best" repair for your daughter.  Interview a couple doctors and ask what they feel is the best repair for your daughter and why. The repair for an older person who is less active is different than a repair for an active 13 year old girl.  Find a good doctor who does, a lot! (as in this is the primary repair he / she does)  of the type of repair you are considering.  There are a number of approaches out there, look at the primary literature not the open forums online for guidance. ( I am not going to dispense medical advise on an open forum).  The post op rehab is long and can not be rushed , the graft has to take and be strong.  Too much too soon stressed the graft . The hard part is that you feel 'better' before the graft or leg is better.  From the beginning of the rehab process look for a PT the understands the mechanics of the knee, hip and ankle and the pathomechanics that lead to the weakened knee in the first place. These need to be worked on from the beginning. The comment earlier about being on the ball early , only with a proper ACL brace . These braces are custom fit and you get them from an Orthotist , not off the shelf. I don't see the need for being on the ball early. that muscle memory should remain. I would be more concerned with overall fitness and joint mechanics. Good luck to you and your daughter . These injuries and surgeries are not career ending . The outcomes are very good . The time off may give her a chance to work on other things ( like joint mechanics on the other knee).


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## sandshark (Oct 4, 2016)

We have been through ACL and MCL with my older kids playing in other sports outside soccer. My kid that tore his ACL/MCL is a professional athlete and so time was money but as we found out It is 100% about taking the time to rehab, take it easy on the rehab, do not overdo rehab there is no such thing as doing more rehab to be ready sooner. NO MATTER what anyone tells you it is a minimum of 6 months and 8-months is even better. She will feel like she can play 1-2 month after surgery BUT SHE CANT! In our circle we know of 5 athletes not including my kids that have had a ACL surgery and every single one of them have been in more than once to fix or redo the surgery because they ignored the time needed for a full recovery. I do not know the actual statistics on a future in something like Soccer after a ACL/MCL but im going to guess they are not good no matter what you do for rehab. It has always been my biggest fear in my DD playing. I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but those are my personal experiences with ACL injuries. Good luck and stay posit, i hope your little girl makes a full recovery.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 4, 2016)

Look at the primarily literature. MED NET . , Journal of Sports Medicine, Journal of orthopedics. etc. Ideas change all the time, a good doctor will move with the times and do what is best for the individual in front of them. you just want to know what your options are and the basics of one approach over another. the reading is dry , jump to the summary . but it is the latest medical information we can get our hands on , unless you are a researcher or medical journal reviewer.


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## No.Guts.No.Glory (Oct 4, 2016)

My daughter also tore her ACL almost two years ago to this date (Sept 27th 2014) playing soccer. She was playing U14 at the time. It was a long recovery , I'd say about 6 to 8 months and since they used part of her own patellar tendon to replace the torn ACL she was left with a huge scar on her knee. With girls, they can be very self conscious about their appearances so the big scar was kind of a bummer for her.  I would recommend looking into alternative non-surgical procedures such as stem cell therapies if your health insurance covers that kind of treatment:

http://www.regenexx.com/regenexx-acl-repair-for-torn-anterior-cruciate-ligament/

From what I have researched, the recovery time is faster with far minimal risks of re-injury and future osteoarthritis. 

Hope she stays strong and has a prompt recovery!


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## Not_that_Serious (Oct 10, 2016)

research. research and read EVERYTHING. take it slow build strength. id also find an Active Release Technique (one with years  of experience dealing with professional athletes - not someone who just certified to bill people) to help with mobility or breaking down scar tissue after.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 10, 2016)

Not_that_Serious said:


> research. research and read EVERYTHING. take it slow build strength. id also find an Active Release Technique (one with years  of experience dealing with professional athletes - not someone who just certified to bill people) to help with mobility or breaking down scar tissue after.


Find a real Physical Therapist! Your orthopedist will send you the right direction . The rehab is protocol driven, the orthopedist does not want HIS/HER surgery messed up, they will put you in good hands. I would not let a massage therapist touch a patient post op unless directed specifically by a PT or the orthopedist.  There is  physiological balance that needs to be realized between scar tissue formation that is beneficial and scar tissue that is inhibiting. Save your cash , unless you are directed to go to a massage therapist and invest in sports specific training/ agility training once clear to progress past the acute phases of rehab.


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## Not_that_Serious (Oct 10, 2016)

charlie murphy said:


> Find a real Physical Therapist! Your orthopedist will send you the right direction . The rehab is protocol driven, the orthopedist does not want HIS/HER surgery messed up, they will put you in good hands. I would not let a massage therapist touch a patient post op unless directed specifically by a PT or the orthopedist.  There is  physiological balance that needs to be realized between scar tissue formation that is beneficial and scar tissue that is inhibiting. Save your cash , unless you are directed to go to a massage therapist and invest in sports specific training/ agility training once clear to progress past the acute phases of rehab.


I didnt say not to go to rehab. you must rehab with a PT postop. also not all orthos are made the same. many people have the word "Dr" as a title but are not the brightest bulbs - especially those you are forced to use that part of a network. i dont know if you have had ART performed on you but ART certified folks are mainly Chiros and PHYSICAL THERAPISTS. I did not trust ANY chiro until I found the place I go to - thought they where all bone cracking quacks. I used them two post acromioclavicular decompressions (one done at Kerlan Jobe by a Mighty Duck surgeon), back issues and feet issue - saved me from having surgery on the left arm & keeps slip disk issue at bay when it flares. The place I go to work on Professional Athletes. People like the Mighty Duck players and Mr Olympia bodybuilders - hyper picky people who do not let "not real" professionals work on them. Hey they even work on average Joes like me and my kid. You know they even look at your MRIs and reports before even touching you (if they even decide to touch you) - who knew they would be able to do that? 

 If one keeps a closed mind and doesnt ask questions about what else might be out there - you will just be steered in the pen with the other sheep. Remember, surgeons get paid to cut you up. Trust the one that will do everything they can to NOT cut you - when at all possible. Also keep in mind not all PTs are at the same level of being able to treat a person - some dont know how to treat an athlete. This is very evident if you are ever sent to hospital-based rehab centers - where you get different people treating you every time you come in and/or kids just out of school or obnoxious PT who has worked at dozens of rehab centers. They treat you to function, but quality of life or getting back to being the "best" might not be the priority. One of my best friends (UCLA/CHapman grad) is a PT, very smart, but always tells me about her limitations with rehabbing athletes (doesnt have the experience) and most PTs limit a lot of various manipulation/treatment in order to minimize legal liability. I have been in and out of rehab centers since I was 12 - and had manual manipulation performed less then a handful of times. Almost in each case I had manipulation the Physical Therapist or Chiro stopped working on me and asked I see 2nd or 3rd opinions - which you have a right to. Other times, fixed ROM issues and broke up scarring in order to get the ROM I had lost.  Point is, dont drink the Kool Aid. Do everything and anything for your child or yourself and dont blindly listen to people - people might have other agendas. You are your kid's advocate since they dont get a real voice. 

Sorry for the rant, but hopefully people are not steered away from looking at other avenues because they have some preconceived notion about something or think what they know something because that is what they where fed by friend, spouse, therapist, doctor - people who have there own opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 11, 2016)

Not_that_Serious said:


> I didnt say not to go to rehab. you must rehab with a PT postop. also not all orthos are made the same. many people have the word "Dr" as a title but are not the brightest bulbs - especially those you are forced to use that part of a network. i dont know if you have had ART performed on you but ART certified folks are mainly Chiros and PHYSICAL THERAPISTS. I did not trust ANY chiro until I found the place I go to - thought they where all bone cracking quacks. I used them two post acromioclavicular decompressions (one done at by a Mighty Duck surgeon), back issues and feet issue - saved me from having surgery on the left arm & keeps slip disk issue at bay when it flares. The place I go to work on Professional Athletes. People like the Mighty Duck players and Mr Olympia bodybuilders - hyper picky people who do not let "not real" professionals work on them. Hey they even work on average Joes like me and my kid. You know they even look at your MRIs and reports before even touching you (if they even decide to touch you) - who knew they would be able to do that?
> 
> If one keeps a closed mind and doesnt ask questions about what else might be out there - you will just be steered in the pen with the other sheep. Remember, surgeons get paid to cut you up. Trust the one that will do everything they can to NOT cut you - when at all possible. Also keep in mind not all PTs are at the same level of being able to treat a person - some dont know how to treat an athlete. This is very evident if you are ever sent to hospital-based rehab centers - where you get different people treating you every time you come in and/or kids just out of school or obnoxious PT who has worked at dozens of rehab centers. They treat you to function, but quality of life or getting back to being the "best" might not be the priority. One of my best friends (UCLA/CHapman grad) is a PT, very smart, but always tells me about her limitations with rehabbing athletes (doesnt have the experience) and most PTs limit a lot of various manipulation/treatment in order to minimize legal liability. I have been in and out of rehab centers since I was 12 - and had manual manipulation performed less then a handful of times. Almost in each case I had manipulation the Physical Therapist or Chiro stopped working on me and asked I see 2nd or 3rd opinions - which you have a right to. Other times, fixed ROM issues and broke up scarring in order to get the ROM I had lost.  Point is, dont drink the Kool Aid. Do everything and anything for your child or yourself and dont blindly listen to people - people might have other agendas. You are your kid's advocate since they dont get a real voice.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but hopefully people are not steered away from looking at other avenues because they have some preconceived notion about something or think what they know something because that is what they where fed by friend, spouse, therapist, doctor - people who have there own opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin.


So just to clarify: you don't want 'people' "fed by friend, spouse, therapist, doctor - people who have there own opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin ( or themselves) ."
Got it! We should listen to a person on a forum who no one knows, over our trusted friend, or your loving spouse, and the trained medical professional who are just out to make a buck off our ailment.   Would you not fall into your last classification : "opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin" . That is completely contradictory.
So you realize that the sub acromion decompression was done on your shoulder , and your back and your feet are not your knee. You also used you body worker / massage therapist for maintenance after the surgeries.  Not acute rehab.  I don't think a doctor is just going to cut you if they see an acl tear. You could live without an acl , if you chose. You would just be very limited. I do not think that PT and medical professionals that are based in a hospitals are lesser then others as you describe. May be you need a different insurance plan so you can access better care. There are some great hospitals in Southern California.   Chiropractors are chiropractors and some are certified in specific soft tissue technique that they may have learned over the some one weekend course as the massage therapist. You also realize that Tom Brady had his ACL done at Kerlan and Jobe ! You do what is best for you. It seems to have worked out really well. Just a little hypocritical to say "don't blindly listen to people" on an open forum. actually that is hilarious , that's really funny! I owe you an apology. thanks.


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## Not_that_Serious (Oct 11, 2016)

charlie murphy said:


> So just to clarify: you don't want 'people' "fed by friend, spouse, therapist, doctor - people who have there own opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin ( or themselves) ."
> Got it! We should listen to a person on a forum who no one knows, over our trusted friend, or your loving spouse, and the trained medical professional who are just out to make a buck off our ailment.   Would you not fall into your last classification : "opinions based off what they where told in school or someone who knows someone who had something done to their cousin" . That is completely contradictory.
> So you realize that the sub acromion decompression was done on your shoulder , and your back and your feet are not your knee. You also used you body worker / massage therapist for maintenance after the surgeries.  Not acute rehab.  I don't think a doctor is just going to cut you if they see an acl tear. You could live without an acl , if you chose. You would just be very limited. I do not think that PT and medical professionals that are based in a hospitals are lesser then others as you describe. May be you need a different insurance plan so you can access better care. There are some great hospitals in Southern California.   Chiropractors are chiropractors and some are certified in specific soft tissue technique that they may have learned over the some one weekend course as the massage therapist. You also realize that Tom Brady had his ACL done at Kerlan and Jobe ! You do what is best for you. It seems to have worked out really well. Just a little hypocritical to say "don't blindly listen to people" on an open forum. actually that is hilarious , that's really funny! I owe you an apology. thanks.


Did you not read the entire post? Must have glanced over the part where i said get 2nd and 3rd opinions. Also where I said keep options open. You also make a lot of assumptions.  Obviously is you have a significant tear, no amount of manual therapy or strengthening is going to fix the issue. My reply was to your find a "real" therapist. The problem is not all doctors and therapists are equally qualified to care for a patient.  The point is you are telling people to get seen by "real" professionals as if whom I suggested where not "real" help . Not all tools made the same and always good to stock your tool chest with the best you can find/afford.  Not everyone has a Kerlan Jobe Doctor doing their surgery - you also assume you and Tom Brady get the same treatment plan. My Kerlan Jobe doctor even said my treatment wasnt the same as treatment provided to Mighty Duck players. After two year of still having right arm issues post surgery - he agreed he was going to do "alternative treatment". You think we get the same treament Scott Niedermayer did to get him playing six weeks after tearing his pectoral muscle?  My ART specialist (who by the way works with Kerlan Jobe ) came in after that, helped strengthen the arm and get rid of the pain - also stopped me from having surgery on the other arm. Same ART person stopped me from getting my wrist cut up by a surgeon who said I had carpal tunnel, and after one of the best PT arm specialists in the country had diagnosed me with pigmented villonodular synovitis - it was neither. Chiro found it was pronator teres syndrome from overly squeezing barbells - he diagnosed it in 5 mins after suffering for 7 years with it. Also figured out my sartorious tear with patella dislocation - 3 years multiple MRIs seen by many doctors and couldnt find anything. Havent seen the inside of rehab facility for anything but my shoulder. Not all doctors have the same work ethic, not all doctors try to keep learning the most advanced type of treatment - many are content to get their info from reps or be content with what they learned in school. A doctor's scope of knowledge is often limited and many times come with egos. Treatment can often depend on what is best for those paying the bills - ever go through a workman's comp doctor?

Point of all this? Help people. Many doctors, therapists and the likes are closed minded. If you find a good doctor, answers your questions and seems not to be CLOSED MINDED, trust him. if not get another opinion and get more resources to help you. Not here to argue about what I know vs what you know or who has a better opinion. People are smart,can read and ask appropriate questions with their provider - hopefully after some research.


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## soccercrazy (Oct 12, 2016)

SDSteve760 said:


> so unfortunately my 13 year old daughter just completely tore her ACL. From anyone's perspective out there what can we expect before returning? Like how long ? What can we do to make it be more successful? Extra training when further along in rehab? The doctor is saying 8 months post op before she will be able to play? Is this realistic? Can she return as strong as before assuming she puts the work in? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks


I am sorry about your daughter, I feel your pain.  We experienced this a year ago, and like you, asked many questions to as many people we could talk to, but this made it very overwhelming.  The bottom line for us was that we found a specialized doctor, Pediatric, Orthopedic Surgeon who specialized in sports medicine and who had a record number of successful surgeries.  Her injury occurred in August last year, her surgery happened in early October (he used her Patellar tendon vs. cadaver, as he said the success rate was much higher using own body parts), and she resumed playing in late April with specialized brace (which she loathes).  It's important to do your due diligence with doctors.   I am not familiar with Kaiser; however, I do know others with Kaiser, who took their MRI's to other surgeons and paid for second opinions to make sure all doctors were on the same page.   From a mental health perspective, bear in mind your daughter may experience a sense of loss-- loss of practices, loss of teammates, loss of a team who she's spent years with.  And while teammates may "text" throughout the duration, it lessens as time goes on, games are stilled played, practices still happen, and she may experience the disconnect and sadness can happen.  Try to keep the connections going so she doesn't feel lost.  Also note that  when she returns, "she" will feel physically good and will believe she's 100%, but that may not be the case.  Even if she runs, she has not trained with her team, and she'll be a bit off kilter.  It will take time, maybe a month, or two, at the most, but if she gets frustrated, you can ensure her that she will come back, and come back even stronger than ever before.  Finally, PT will be a struggle - not because it's hard, but because it's "boring and monotonous".  It will be the most important part of her recovery, so commiserate with her, but make sure she does what the doctor orders, I can't emphasize how important this will be.  Hope this helps and best wishes for a speedy recovery!


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