# Politics and Club BS has enter the HS scene



## coachsamy (Nov 27, 2018)

I guess I was naive enough to believe that HS Soccer didn’t have all the bullshitry that goes with club! 

I’m beyond disgusted!


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 27, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> I guess I was naive enough to believe that HS Soccer didn’t have all the bullshitry that goes with club!
> 
> I’m beyond disgusted!


What happened?


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## coachsamy (Nov 27, 2018)

3 girls got left out of the varsity team for a bunch of lesser skilled girls. 

You know when the soccer moms intervene type of deal.


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## Kicknit22 (Nov 27, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> 3 girls got left out of the varsity team for a bunch of lesser skilled girls.
> 
> You know when the soccer moms intervene type of deal.


Quit holding back CS! Spill it.


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## coachsamy (Nov 27, 2018)

Kicknit22 said:


> Quit holding back CS! Spill it.


Nothing that haven’t happened before at a soccer club.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 27, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Nothing that haven’t happened before at a soccer club.


It's hard to adjust your mind to HS. I spent the whole first year of high school soccer shaking my head at her coach, girls taking shots from 40 yards and getting commended for it.


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## MWN (Nov 27, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> 3 girls got left out of the varsity team for a bunch of lesser skilled girls.
> 
> You know when the soccer moms intervene type of deal.


HS sports (girls and boys) are especially susceptible to some of that ... unqualified players making the team because the Coach knows that the moms/dads are going to hit it hard on fundraising and supporting the team.  I've seen it in soccer and cheer.  Obviously some programs are less immune than others, but often it comes down to parental support of programs equals a leg up for that parent's kid.


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## Zdrone (Nov 28, 2018)

And you are surprised?

Coach Tracksuit runs the Middletown High School genderunrelated soccer team.  The rest of the year is spent running a club team of similar or equal age.
Coach uses High School as a recruiting and training facility. 

It hasn’t affected mine directly but I am watching the process at 2 of the local high schools.  And I know 2 Club/Varsity coaches.


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## timbuck (Nov 28, 2018)

Are we taking about “a junior or senior made the varsity team, but a more skilled freshman or sophomore didn’t?”

Because some coaches do care a bit about the “social order” of high school.  Right or wrong, it happens and it’s probably not a bad thing.


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## espola (Nov 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Are we taking about “a junior or senior made the varsity team, but a more skilled freshman or sophomore didn’t?”
> 
> Because some coaches do care a bit about the “social order” of high school.  Right or wrong, it happens and it’s probably not a bad thing.


A coach who has confidence he will be coaching the team next year might be better off putting a Freshman on JV and play him every game rather than sitting him on the Varsity bench.


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## Kicker4Life (Nov 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Are we taking about “a junior or senior made the varsity team, but a more skilled freshman or sophomore didn’t?”
> 
> Because some coaches do care a bit about the “social order” of high school.  Right or wrong, it happens and it’s probably not a bad thing.


Based on everything I’ve read on this forum, it would appear “social order” is really the key reason to play HS soccer.  So it would make sense that “seniority would be a factor whether it’s right or wrong.


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## twoclubpapa (Nov 28, 2018)

I've observed that part of the "social order" is that a player who has persevered through 3 years of F/S and JV will always make the varsity in their senior year but playing time may be limited.  Although there are no formal HS roster size limitations the practical result may be the senior displaces a lower classmate (Fr, Soph, Jr) with better skills but not quite enough to displace another player who is not a senior.


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## Fact (Nov 28, 2018)

High school coaches often pick kids from their club over other local competing club players.  I often heard kids and parents say that they are playing at club X because the high school coach is from club X and they want to play high school.


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## Sons of Pitches (Nov 28, 2018)

twoclubpapa said:


> I've observed that part of the "social order" is that a player who has persevered through 3 years of F/S and JV will always make the varsity in their senior year but playing time may be limited.  Although there are no formal HS roster size limitations the practical result may be the senior displaces a lower classmate (Fr, Soph, Jr) with better skills but not quite enough to displace another player who is not a senior.


Agree totally with this philosophy, if a player has supported the team through 3 years of HS, played Fr/Soph, JV, they should be rewarded a spot on Varsity as a senior regardless of their skill level.  Playing time is another issue, a player is never guaranteed playing time, and the roster may need to be expanded to accomodate the seniors.


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## socalkdg (Nov 28, 2018)

Fact said:


> High school coaches often pick kids from their club over other local competing club players.  I often heard kids and parents say that they are playing at club X because the high school coach is from club X and they want to play high school.


This may be why my daughter plays basketball instead of soccer in High School.   New coach from another soccer club now in charge, three of his freshman girls on varsity and starting over a couple girls that are better.  Plus a goal keeper that is great with possession based play not as important with a kick ball High School team.  Actually don't mind her playing two sports.


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## Multi Sport (Nov 28, 2018)

I could write a book about my kids school. Coaches having inappropriate relationships with players. Coaches arrested. Coaches on drugs. Parents paying for their kids play time. 

Of course these coaches are all gone now but my girls had to deal with it.


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## electrichead72 (Nov 28, 2018)

Fact said:


> High school coaches often pick kids from their club over other local competing club players.  I often heard kids and parents say that they are playing at club X because the high school coach is from club X and they want to play high school.


I haven't had to deal with this personally, but an older sibling of one of my daughter's teammates had this issue. She didn't play for the right club, whom this coach was part of, so she didn't play.

The coach wasn't too bashful about pushing his agenda of playing and giving preferential treatment to players that belonged to the club that he was part of.

Luckily I haven't had to deal with this.

That coach is long gone BTW.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 29, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> I could write a book about my kids school. Coaches having inappropriate relationships with players. Coaches arrested. Coaches on drugs. Parents paying for their kids play time.
> 
> Of course these coaches are all gone now but my girls had to deal with it.


And everything turned out ok.


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## coachsamy (Nov 29, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> I could write a book about my kids school. Coaches having inappropriate relationships with players. Coaches arrested. Coaches on drugs. Parents paying for their kids play time.
> 
> Of course these coaches are all gone now but my girls had to deal with it.


What this guy said.


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## coachsamy (Nov 29, 2018)

One of the issues here that caught me by surprise is that the Varsity coach is not affiliated with any youth club. The school AD runs a very good athletic program within the school as far opportunities for all the kids. I haven't had any issues with any of the sports within the school (Cross Country, Track, Swimming, Wrestling, Field Hockey and Lacrosse) but it caught my attention as of why my DD a Jr, which has waited the last 2 years in JV to move up to varsity, was passed up for silver and bronze level girls that range from Freshman to Juniors.  I believe that Seniors that have played Fresh/JV their first 3 years in the school do deserve to be in the Varsity team regardless of their skill level.

If the coach was a club coach, I would had expected this kind of debauchery...


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## JCM (Nov 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> One of the issues here that caught me by surprise is that the Varsity coach is not affiliated with any youth club. The school AD runs a very good athletic program within the school as far opportunities for all the kids. I haven't had any issues with any of the sports within the school (Cross Country, Track, Swimming, Wrestling, Field Hockey and Lacrosse) but it caught my attention as of why my DD a Jr, which has waited the last 2 years in JV to move up to varsity, was passed up for silver and bronze level girls that range from Freshman to Juniors.  I believe that Seniors that have played Fresh/JV their first 3 years in the school do deserve to be in the Varsity team regardless of their skill level.
> 
> If the coach was a club coach, I would had expected this kind of debauchery...


I'm a former club coach, now just coach high school.  We made it a point to see at least one game for every potential varsity player that we knew of this fall.  For most we saw two or more.  We did this because sometimes we imagine a player as one thing and their club coach sees them as something else. This caused us to turn one of our defenders in to a striker.  One player that is playing two years up is a six for her club team.  Great player, but not the type of six we want as she dribbles too much and we want someone to just sit in front of our back line.  So she is going to float between JV and varsity because we see her as a 9 and have three others ahead of her.  She wants to play varsity, but we think she will develop better by playing 80 minutes a game.  Our starting right back is a forward on her low level club team, but fits our style because our cb's are slow and we are a high press team.  She's super fast and physical.  

I'm sure some coaches are biased, but most I've met just want to win. Our best left mid is a freshman, but has maturity issues so we have put her on the JV even though she's clearly more talented than players two years older.  We have six kids who play CM on their club team but for our style of play the best one is actually a winger on club.

I could go on and I'm sure shenanigans happen, but in general every HS coach I've met is thoughtful and competitive.  If your DD or DS will make an impact they will be on the field.  By the way, on our roster of 19, we asked everyone what they see their role as. All but two think they should be starters who play almost the whole game.  If only we could play 17 kids at once everyone would be happy.


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## Soccerfan2 (Nov 29, 2018)

JCM that’s great perspective. 
It’s so easy to be an armchair critic, about HS coaching, about DA, about WNT/MNT/YNT selection. Much respect to all the coaches at all levels who are out there contributing. Most are there doing their best for love of the game more than money.


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## coachsamy (Nov 29, 2018)

JCM said:


> I'm a former club coach, now just coach high school.  We made it a point to see at least one game for every potential varsity player that we knew of this fall.  For most we saw two or more.  We did this because sometimes we imagine a player as one thing and their club coach sees them as something else. This caused us to turn one of our defenders in to a striker.  One player that is playing two years up is a six for her club team.  Great player, but not the type of six we want as she dribbles too much and we want someone to just sit in front of our back line.  So she is going to float between JV and varsity because we see her as a 9 and have three others ahead of her.  She wants to play varsity, but we think she will develop better by playing 80 minutes a game.  Our starting right back is a forward on her low level club team, but fits our style because our cb's are slow and we are a high press team.  She's super fast and physical.
> 
> I'm sure some coaches are biased, but most I've met just want to win. Our best left mid is a freshman, but has maturity issues so we have put her on the JV even though she's clearly more talented than players two years older.  We have six kids who play CM on their club team but for our style of play the best one is actually a winger on club.
> 
> I could go on and I'm sure shenanigans happen, but in general every HS coach I've met is thoughtful and competitive.  If your DD or DS will make an impact they will be on the field.  By the way, on our roster of 19, we asked everyone what they see their role as. All but two think they should be starters who play almost the whole game.  If only we could play 17 kids at once everyone would be happy.


I concur with your assessment. And I would think that most coaches that are not related to any given club would have somehow the same philosophy. I have a system, send girls to JV to mature, get playing time, and eventually come up. Also take care of the seniors that committed to play all 4 years for the school among many other things. 

When parental favors and other outside influences are blocking deserving kids from coming up to Varsity, that's an issue. There are a lot of inconsistencies at this school soccer program and what caught me offguard it was that the coach is not affiliated with any clubs.


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## Multi Sport (Nov 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> One of the issues here that caught me by surprise is that the Varsity coach is not affiliated with any youth club. The school AD runs a very good athletic program within the school as far opportunities for all the kids. I haven't had any issues with any of the sports within the school (Cross Country, Track, Swimming, Wrestling, Field Hockey and Lacrosse) but it caught my attention as of why my DD a Jr, which has waited the last 2 years in JV to move up to varsity, was passed up for silver and bronze level girls that range from Freshman to Juniors.  I believe that Seniors that have played Fresh/JV their first 3 years in the school do deserve to be in the Varsity team regardless of their skill level.
> 
> If the coach was a club coach, I would had expected this kind of debauchery...


Deserve... earned yes. My younger DDs Senior year the coach cut a senior girl who was on Varsity the year before. My older DDs Senior year the coach cut two Seniors who had played JV the three previous years. I have my suspicion why but no facts so I can't say.


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## Multi Sport (Nov 29, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> And everything turned out ok.


Not if you ask my oldest DD. It was her Senior HS year that she soured on Soccer, mostly due to her experience. She only played one game after HS but in it she scored the winning goal in NC quarter finals. At least she went out in a fun way..


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## Josep (Nov 29, 2018)

Nothing new here. This has been going on in HS sports, including girls soccer for 25 years. 

In this day and age, unless your kid plays at a powerhouse, talented freshmen girls typically make varsity.  In my experience, when juniors are on JV, they’ve been left here instead of being cut.  I’m not saying this applies to the OP’s situation. But especially after DA took away talent, it was pretty easy to make varsity as a freshmen and it was a given as a sophomore. 

Kids languishing on JV and not called up to Varsity for CIF, by sophomore year (Just to ride the bench and experience it) aren’t part of the program’s long term  plans.  

I’ve never seen “paying dues” apply in girls HS soccer.  You’re either IN, or you aren’t.  And they pretty much know it by the first summer camp.


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## Surfref (Nov 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> I guess I was naive enough to believe that HS Soccer didn’t have all the bullshitry that goes with club!
> 
> I’m beyond disgusted!


I am laughing because you are surprised by this.  IMHO, the bullshittery is even worse in HS.


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## Enjoy the ride (Nov 29, 2018)

Josep said:


> Nothing new here. This has been going on in HS sports, including girls soccer for 25 years.
> 
> In this day and age, unless your kid plays at a powerhouse, talented freshmen girls typically make varsity.  In my experience, when juniors are on JV, they’ve been left here instead of being cut.  I’m not saying this applies to the OP’s situation. But especially after DA took away talent, it was pretty easy to make varsity as a freshmen and it was a given as a sophomore.
> 
> ...


first summer camp? curious which high schools have summer camps? my dd's HS in north county San Diego doesn't do this...


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## coachsamy (Nov 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I am laughing because you are surprised by this.  IMHO, the bullshittery is even worse in HS.


Gotta give the benefit of the doubt to people outside of the club scene.


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## CaliKlines (Nov 30, 2018)

Enjoy the ride said:


> first summer camp? curious which high schools have summer camps? my dd's HS in north county San Diego doesn't do this...


It was a very common occurrence in our North Orange County conference. Our school had a three day camp for all players (including a couple of players going into 8th grade). Then a 2 day camp towards the end of summer for varsity prospect invitees. Other high schools in our conference  had summer programs as well.


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## twoclubpapa (Nov 30, 2018)

Many of the OC high schools have multi-week soccer camps and participate in summer leagues.  My grandDD played for the original Newport Beach Slammers and attended the incoming freshman camp at her HS on its first Monday morning.  She was asked to stay for the varsity camp in the afternoon and was a varsity starter at CB as a 9th grader in the Sunset League.  It appears to me that a lot of the V, JV, Fr/Soph sorting occurs during these camps.


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## Josep (Dec 2, 2018)

Enjoy the ride said:


> first summer camp? curious which high schools have summer camps? my dd's HS in north county San Diego doesn't do this...



Yeah, as was said - summer camps and summer leagues in OC.  Despite my many complaints about Hs soccer, summer league I enjoyed. 

Coaches have a pretty good idea which incoming freshmen are going to be varsity, or handed the reigns to lead JV.  

This is why if you’re a junior on JV at a school that isn’t a soccer powerhouse, there are been a subtle message sent to you.


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## Enjoy the ride (Dec 2, 2018)

I don't know any San Diego high schools that do summer programs. Sounds like a great option though - I wish they did!


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## Denied (Dec 2, 2018)

Josep said:


> This is why if you’re a junior on JV at a school that isn’t a soccer powerhouse, there are been a subtle message sent to you.


There is always the exception.


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## coachsamy (Dec 2, 2018)

Josep said:


> This is why if you’re a junior on JV at a school that isn’t a soccer powerhouse, there are been a subtle message sent to you.


Subtle? Blatant if you ask me. What adds insult to injury is when the coaches give a false hope to the Junior(s) just to take a few more freshman.


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## Multi Sport (Dec 3, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Subtle? Blatant if you ask me. What adds insult to injury is when the coaches give a false hope to the Junior(s) just to take a few more freshman.


My kids school is anything but a powerhouse but I can name kids who didn't make Varsity until their Senior year and then started. One girl was cut her Freshman year then later went on to play on an ECNL team. Then you have the four year Varsity player who can't find their way onto the field at a small college or the one that comes off the bench their Senior year after starting the previous two.Don't put too much stock in HS...


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## coachsamy (Dec 3, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> My kids school is anything but a powerhouse but I can name kids who didn't make Varsity until their Senior year and then started. One girl was cut her Freshman year then later went on to play on an ECNL team. Then you have the four year Varsity player who can't find their way onto the field at a small college or the one that comes off the bench their Senior year after starting the previous two.Don't put too much stock in HS...


I have zero stock in soccer past the high school years for my DD.  The painful part for me is to pick up my DD after practice and see her down. In 13 years that she played at so many levels, bad/good teams, poor/great dynamics, Elite/Rec (Everything in between) soccer, she has never been feeling down coming out of practice. I could honestly careless if she plays JV or Varsity as long she's happy with her situation.


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## MFranco (Dec 4, 2018)

JCM said:


> I'm a former club coach, now just coach high school.  We made it a point to see at least one game for every potential varsity player that we knew of this fall.  For most we saw two or more.  We did this because sometimes we imagine a player as one thing and their club coach sees them as something else. This caused us to turn one of our defenders in to a striker.  One player that is playing two years up is a six for her club team.  Great player, but not the type of six we want as she dribbles too much and we want someone to just sit in front of our back line.  So she is going to float between JV and varsity because we see her as a 9 and have three others ahead of her.  She wants to play varsity, but we think she will develop better by playing 80 minutes a game.  Our starting right back is a forward on her low level club team, but fits our style because our cb's are slow and we are a high press team.  She's super fast and physical.
> 
> I'm sure some coaches are biased, but most I've met just want to win. Our best left mid is a freshman, but has maturity issues so we have put her on the JV even though she's clearly more talented than players two years older.  We have six kids who play CM on their club team but for our style of play the best one is actually a winger on club.
> 
> I could go on and I'm sure shenanigans happen, but in general every HS coach I've met is thoughtful and competitive.  If your DD or DS will make an impact they will be on the field.  By the way, on our roster of 19, we asked everyone what they see their role as. All but two think they should be starters who play almost the whole game.  If only we could play 17 kids at once everyone would be happy.


While there is a lot of politics involved in youth soccer I honestly think it is more at the Club level over the HS level. There are definitely club coaches connected to the local club who will basically cut any player not with their club and at the end of the season when the kid asks what they need to work on their first response is to tell them about THEIR club tryouts. I am connected to a club and HS in the same area but if my HS kids can play then they make varsity. Regardless of their age. Plus it depends on the system and style. If they are a Junior forward and 6 other freshman and sophomores are better forwards than them and I know the freshman will get a lot of playing time then I take the freshman over the junior. If I think a freshman will sit the bench on Varsity most of the time then I will put them on JV to get more playing time and experience.

The whole idea of a senior SHOULD make varsity is ridiculous. This whole entitlement with the kids is the biggest problem and stems from parents. Why should a senior, who really hasn't worked that hard, hasn't trained to get better but did just enough to be a mediocre JV level player get priority over a freshman or sophomore who HAS worked hard with their club team and off season to get them ready for the HS Varsity level. The freshman and sophomores who show up to summer camps/league and prove they can play at the varsity level when juniors and seniors decide to skip the summer because they think they already have it in the bag. A lot of seniors tend to lose a lot of interest and motivation to get better but then get upset with their playing time or not making a team.

 If I have a senior who is a great kid and has worked hard but may not be the most skilled, I have no problem keeping them in the program, but on the JV team with opportunities to play up with varsity as well as come up on senior night and play.

Parents always think that players get priority if their parent helps with fundraising or donates to the program and sadly it does happen at times but for the most part. The best players play. It doesn't matter what the player does on the club team if it doesn't show at HS. 

We hope that the politics would be removed from HS and the coaches I know tend to want to win and will take the best players regardless of age or club affiliation. But there are always going to be those parents with blinders on thinking their kid is the best thing out there and if they don't get what they want then it must mean favoritism


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## Multi Sport (Dec 4, 2018)

MFranco said:


> If I have a senior who is a great kid and has worked hard but may not be the most skilled, I have no problem keeping them in the program, but on the JV team with opportunities to play up with varsity as well as come up on senior night and play.


I agree with most of your post but..... you are a HS coach so you should know that Seniors can't play JV.


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## MFranco (Dec 4, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> I agree with most of your post but..... you are a HS coach so you should know that Seniors can't play JV.


Unless rules have changed where does it say a senior cant play JV. A student cant play on a freshman team once they've reached their 16th birthday. A player who turns 19 cannot play. A player cannot play on a "sophomore" or "frosh/soph" team if they turn 17 before June.

But where does it say a senior cant be on a JV team? A lot of coaches tell players and parents this to give them an excuse to cut the player. They say things like "you know seniors cant be on JV so if you aren't ready for varsity we will have to cut you...so come join my club team so we can get you better" then the favoritism comes into play at that point.


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## El Clasico (Dec 4, 2018)

As my kids went through high school, I saw plenty of seniors playing on the JV team. Most won't because they think that there is a stigma attached to it, others will to get out of PE, which is why they don't make varsity.  They are joining the team, not because they are motivated and want to play but rather look to get out of something else.


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## coachsamy (Dec 4, 2018)

MFranco said:


> The whole idea of a senior SHOULD make varsity is ridiculous. This whole entitlement with the kids is the biggest problem and stems from parents. Why should a senior, who really hasn't worked that hard, hasn't trained to get better but did just enough to be a mediocre JV level player get priority over a freshman or sophomore who HAS worked hard with their club team and off season to get them ready for the HS Varsity level. The freshman and sophomores who show up to summer camps/league and prove they can play at the varsity level when juniors and seniors decide to skip the summer because they think they already have it in the bag. A lot of seniors tend to lose a lot of interest and motivation to get better but then get upset with their playing time or not making a team.


School Athletics aka Varsity Sports, are extracurricular school activities for the enjoyment and growth of the student athlete. You are here bashing Seniors like they don't deserve this or that? Because they can't play nor play for you in your club team? 

There is a reason ALL Varsity sports have a Senior Night. Not a Freshman, or a sophomore nor a Junior. A Senior Night.  Why should a Senior on their last summer needs to worry about some freshman or sophomore taking their place, when they have bigger and better things to do during that summer. Of course those freshman/sophomores are not just competing for a spot on the Varsity team, they are trying out for your club team. 

I played Varsity Baseball and Basketball in HS, and comparing to the dynamics with non soccer Varsity sports that my kids play in HS, not much has changed, as far the pecking order and what not. Once you understand what Varsity sports are about, you will treat your seniors a little better.

To give you a little perspective, a friend of mine called me last week to share that his DD a good friend and former teammate of my DD made Varsity in their powerhouse school (And that school is loaded, their JV team might beat lots of Varsity teams). As we are speaking he's telling about this girl that is a senior and made the team and we both concur that it was nice to see that kid that barely got any playing time and probably will not step in the field, gets to be part of the Varsity team and enjoy her last year in HS as part of the Varsity team.


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## MFranco (Dec 4, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> School Athletics aka Varsity Sports, are extracurricular school activities for the enjoyment and growth of the student athlete. You are here bashing Seniors like they don't deserve this or that? Because they can't play nor play for you in your club team?
> 
> There is a reason ALL Varsity sports have a Senior Night. Not a Freshman, or a sophomore nor a Junior. A Senior Night.  Why should a Senior on their last summer needs to worry about some freshman or sophomore taking their place, when they have bigger and better things to do during that summer. Of course those freshman/sophomores are not just competing for a spot on the Varsity team, they are trying out for your club team.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I was "bashing" seniors. I just commented saying that some lose interest and don't want to get better. No one DESERVES anything but like I mentioned. I have no problem putting seniors on a JV team and bringing them up on occasion and definitely bring them up for Senior Night to be with their classmates. Like you said, extracurricular school activities are for enjoyment and growth. What enjoyment and growth happens with someone sitting on the bench or cutting them completely from the program when there are other opportunities to play on another team and keep playing the sport they love?

Also mentioning that a summer program for a senior shouldn't matter because they have "bigger and better things to do..." is a choice they make. In life with choices come consequences and if a coach doesn't see enough of a player at tryouts then the summer program is a good way to evaluate the player (senior or not) and see them in more game situations. If a senior, or anyone for that matter, decides that summer or other things are more important than helping the program then why should they feel entitled to even be a part of that program? because they want to? because they are a senior?

I never said those freshman & sophomores are trying out for the club. I mentioned that there are club coaches who tell their students to do that but I am definitely not one of them. I suggest any club or rec program to all of my athletes at all levels to help them get better or just continue to get experience playing. Sometimes players aren't ready for a certain level regardless of their age so our program does the best job to keep as many as possible but making it fair.

Ideally putting a player on varsity as a senior regardless of their skill would be nice. I know in my program and many programs a player will say they are okay with little to no playing time just to have the status of varsity. As soon as they make the team their parents complain about playing time.


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## coachsamy (Dec 4, 2018)

MFranco said:


> I don't believe I was "bashing" seniors. I just commented saying that some lose interest and don't want to get better. No one DESERVES anything but like I mentioned. I have no problem putting seniors on a JV team and bringing them up on occasion and definitely bring them up for Senior Night to be with their classmates. Like you said, extracurricular school activities are for enjoyment and growth. What enjoyment and growth happens with someone sitting on the bench or cutting them completely from the program when there are other opportunities to play on another team and keep playing the sport they love?


Seniors are not entitled to playing time neither is the new freshman. Why would you bring up a Senior to Senior night if they are not part of that team???? That's pretty insulting to the self esteem of that kid. The enjoyment in HS is that you are part of a team that you can enjoy with your classmates, the people that you see and live most of the day. The growth in HS is when you understand your place within teams and learn how to be supportive and be ready when call upon. 


MFranco said:


> Also mentioning that a summer program for a senior shouldn't matter because they have "bigger and better things to do..." is a choice they make. In life with choices come consequences and if a coach doesn't see enough of a player at tryouts then the summer program is a good way to evaluate the player (senior or not) and see them in more game situations. If a senior, or anyone for that matter, decides that summer or other things are more important than helping the program then why should they feel entitled to even be a part of that program? because they want to? because they are a senior?


Seniors in their last summer are trying to sort out the beginning of their adulthood. College, life is coming at them, so soccer is kind of the last thing in their mind. If you as a coach don't know what type of players your seniors or any returning player is, you might need to reassess yourself and your evaluation process. Older players don't change that much. 


MFranco said:


> I never said those freshman & sophomores are trying out for the club. I mentioned that there are club coaches who tell their students to do that but I am definitely not one of them. I suggest any club or rec program to all of my athletes at all levels to help them get better or just continue to get experience playing. Sometimes players aren't ready for a certain level regardless of their age so our program does the best job to keep as many as possible but making it fair.


You might not accept it, but you implied it very well. And don't worry, lots of people are doing it, because that's their only source of income...


MFranco said:


> Ideally putting a player on varsity as a senior regardless of their skill would be nice. I know in my program and many programs a player will say they are okay with little to no playing time just to have the status of varsity. As soon as they make the team their parents complain about playing time.


Parents can complaint all they want, but that's the beauty of HS Sports, parents should NOT have the same control they do in club. I laugh every time I see these helicopter parents complaining to coaches about playing time, practice time and what not, when in a few years they will be adult and they didn't learn, how to become self sufficient.

Disclaimer, I'm not talking about the Elite players nor the underachievers that go varsity sports to avoid PE and what not... Just to keep that in context.


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## Multi Sport (Dec 4, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> As my kids went through high school, I saw plenty of seniors playing on the JV team. Most won't because they think that there is a stigma attached to it, others will to get out of PE, which is why they don't make varsity.  They are joining the team, not because they are motivated and want to play but rather look to get out of something else.


What league was that? 

I have been around HS sports a long time and have never seen a Senior on JV on any sport.


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## MFranco (Dec 4, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Seniors are not entitled to playing time neither is the new freshman. Why would you bring up a Senior to Senior night if they are not part of that team???? That's pretty insulting to the self esteem of that kid. The enjoyment in HS is that you are part of a team that you can enjoy with your classmates, the people that you see and live most of the day. The growth in HS is when you understand your place within teams and learn how to be supportive and be ready when call upon.
> 
> Seniors in their last summer are trying to sort out the beginning of their adulthood. College, life is coming at them, so soccer is kind of the last thing in their mind. If you as a coach don't know what type of players your seniors or any returning player is, you might need to reassess yourself and your evaluation process. Older players don't change that much.
> 
> ...



Think you  misunderstood what I wrote but okay. I agree with the parent part you stated. As far as not bringing up a senior from JV for senior night; I feel that would be more insulting to the senior to see their senior classmates being honored in senior night and they sit or play in the JV game and go home. But every coach is different I guess.

When it comes to summer soccer...definitely did not imply that they come try out for me in club. I said alot of coaches do that but okay. The extra income is always nice but I make enough outside of soccer and so does my wife so whatever.

 Older players don't change that much you are right. unfortunately the younger ones are coming in and are better. So, if a senior who has never made the varsity team thinks they will be on varsity just because they are a senior over a freshman who is more talented then they are wrong.


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## coachsamy (Dec 5, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> What league was that?
> 
> I have been around HS sports a long time and have never seen a Senior on JV on any sport.


Cross Country does have Seniors running in JV. However the dynamics there are night and day difference than in soccer.


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## Eagle33 (Dec 5, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Cross Country does have Seniors running in JV. However the dynamics there are night and day difference than in soccer.


I think you are mistaken. Seniors not allowed on any level but varsity in all HS sports.


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## coachsamy (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Seniors not allowed on any level but varsity in all HS sports.


I thought so too until my son ran in Cross Country and there were a few Seniors in the JV meets. 

https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/meet/143635/results/646014


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## espola (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Seniors not allowed on any level but varsity in all HS sports.


In San Diego Section, the Green Book rules say nothing about that.

http://www.cifsds.org/uploads/2/3/3/6/23368454/2018-19_cif_san_diego_greenbook.pdf


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## El Clasico (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Seniors not allowed on any level but varsity in all HS sports.


Where are you getting this information?


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## Eagle33 (Dec 5, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> I thought so too until my son ran in Cross Country and there were a few Seniors in the JV meets.
> 
> https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/meet/143635/results/646014


I guess San Diego section is very different for the rest


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## Mom Taxi (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Seniors not allowed on any level but varsity in all HS sports.


Check the rule books. Seniors run JV Cross Country and Track. That’s the beauty of those sports - No BS politics - either an athlete has the times required to compete at the Varsity level or they don’t.


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## Mom Taxi (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I guess San Diego section is very different for the rest


 I doubt that applies only to the San Diego section.


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## davin (Dec 5, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I guess San Diego section is very different for the rest


In my experience with High School sports, Seniors were never allowed to play JV. If San Diego allows it, it is very different.

For example, here are the eligibility rules for a league in NorCal:
"Senior athletes are not eligible for Junior Varsity competition and shall not play on any JV team in any sport. Exceptions: Cross Country (see the Cross Country By-Laws for specific details) and by consent of the League Commissioner."

http://www.wcalsports.org/docs/handbook/Article V - Eligibility.pdf


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## Mom Taxi (Dec 5, 2018)

davin said:


> In my experience with High School sports, Seniors were never allowed to play JV. If San Diego allows it, it is very different.
> 
> For example, here are the eligibility rules for a league in NorCal:
> "Senior athletes are not eligible for Junior Varsity competition and shall not play on any JV team in any sport. Exceptions: Cross Country (see the Cross Country By-Laws for specific details) and by consent of the League Commissioner."
> ...


Those rules appear specific to the league and not the broader umbrella of CIF. Certainly each section or more specifically leagues have their own rules.


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## davin (Dec 5, 2018)

Mom Taxi said:


> Those rules appear specific to the league and not the broader umbrella of CIF. Certainly each section or more specifically leagues have their own rules.


Yeah. I know the rules are specific to the league, but all of the leagues I'm familiar with have the similar rules about Seniors on JV.

Here's another one: "The definition of F/S boys’ means only freshmen and/or sophomores may compete on a team with this classification. The definition of JV (boys & girls) means only freshmen, sophomores, and juniors may participate on that team with this classification. No seniors may compete on a F/S or JV team unless outlined specifically in that sports by-laws with regard to tournament play only."

http://bval.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BVAL-Constitution-8.27.18.pdf


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## espola (Dec 5, 2018)

Mom Taxi said:


> Those rules appear specific to the league and not the broader umbrella of CIF. Certainly each section or more specifically leagues have their own rules.


Or the school.  Our HS coach wouldn't put any Seniors on JV, but he did keep 16 Seniors on the Varsity roster, some of whom rarely played and never started until Senior Night.


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## Mom Taxi (Dec 5, 2018)

davin said:


> Yeah. I know the rules are specific to the league, but all of the leagues I'm familiar with have the similar rules about Seniors on JV.
> 
> Here's another one: "The definition of F/S boys’ means only freshmen and/or sophomores may compete on a team with this classification. The definition of JV (boys & girls) means only freshmen, sophomores, and juniors may participate on that team with this classification. No seniors may compete on a F/S or JV team unless outlined specifically in that sports by-laws with regard to tournament play only."
> 
> http://bval.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BVAL-Constitution-8.27.18.pdf


Got it. But have you read CIF’s rules pertaining to eligibility? Just b/c certain leagues have specific rules it doesn’t mean in other leagues Seniors aren’t allowed to participate in JV competition. California is a very big state after all.


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## davin (Dec 5, 2018)

Mom Taxi said:


> Got it. But have you read CIF’s rules pertaining to eligibility?


No, I haven't read the CIF's rule. I don't doubt that the CIF doesn't have specific language barring Seniors from playing JV. 

My point is that from all my experience with HS sport, Seniors are not typically allowed to compete on JV. It may not be against CIF rules for Senior to compete at the JV level, but in practice(because of league rules or any other reason) it normally doesn't happen.


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## Mom Taxi (Dec 5, 2018)

davin said:


> No, I haven't read the CIF's rule. I don't doubt that the CIF doesn't have specific language barring Seniors from playing JV.
> 
> My point is that from all my experience with HS sport, Seniors are not typically allowed to compete on JV. It may not be against CIF rules for Senior to compete at the JV level, but in practice(because of league rules or any other reason) it normally doesn't happen.


Right, but my point is that just b/c it doesn’t happen often doesn’t mean it’s not allowed. Especially since there are coaches and parents on this forum stating it does happen and it is allowed.


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## coachsamy (Dec 5, 2018)

Mom Taxi said:


> Check the rule books. Seniors run JV Cross Country and Track. That’s the beauty of those sports - No BS politics - either an athlete has the times required to compete at the Varsity level or they don’t.


Love those sports and their dynamics are great. The kids are very supportive and the encouraging conversations they engage at the check in line after finishing the race speaks volumes about the culture of those sports! 


espola said:


> Or the school.  Our HS coach wouldn't put any Seniors on JV, but he did keep 16 Seniors on the Varsity roster, some of whom rarely played and never started until Senior Night.


Do you believe that in today's landscape where club is priority #1, coaches are going to take care of Seniors. It would be nice that Seniors would still be given their place...


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## Multi Sport (Dec 5, 2018)

MFranco said:


> Unless rules have changed where does it say a senior cant play JV. A student cant play on a freshman team once they've reached their 16th birthday. A player who turns 19 cannot play. A player cannot play on a "sophomore" or "frosh/soph" team if they turn 17 before June.
> 
> But where does it say a senior cant be on a JV team? A lot of coaches tell players and parents this to give them an excuse to cut the player. They say things like "you know seniors cant be on JV so if you aren't ready for varsity we will have to cut you...so come join my club team so we can get you better" then the favoritism comes into play at that point.


What league do you coach in?


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## Multi Sport (Dec 5, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Where are you getting this information?


What league are you referring to that allows Seniors to compete on JV?


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## MFranco (Dec 5, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> What league are you referring to that allows Seniors to compete on JV?


For CIFSS Blue Book this is what it says:https://cifss.org/resources/blue-book/62/

*
203. AGE REQUIREMENT


A student, whose 19th birthday is attained prior to June 15, shall not participate or practice on any team in the following school year. A student,

whose 19th birthday is on or before June 14, is ineligible. Each Section may waive this provision so long as criteria for such a waiver shall include,

but not be limited to, the following:

A. Such a waiver would not grant more than four years (eight semesters) of eligibility; AND

B. Such a waiver would not grant more than four years participation in any sport; AND

C. That a hardship exists which, in the judgment of the Section, requires a waiver. “Hardship” is defined in Bylaw 213; AND

D.
A decision to deny such a waiver by the Section Commissioner may be appealed only to the Section and in accordance with

the provisions set forth in State CIF Bylaw 1101.
*
203.1
A student may not compete on a freshman (9th grade) team after he or she has reached his or her 16th birthday on or before

June 15, 2018.

203.2
A student may not compete on a sophomore or frosh‐soph team after he or she has reached his or her 17th birthday on or

before June 15, 2018.


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## MFranco (Dec 5, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> What league do you coach in?


New to the Mt. Baldy league. This year we have no seniors playing JV anyway because they quit once they were put on JV instead of varsity as many have but we have had a couple in the past when were in the Palomares league


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## coachsamy (Dec 5, 2018)

MFranco said:


> New to the Mt. Baldy league. This year we have no seniors playing JV anyway because they quit once they were put on JV instead of varsity as many have but we have had a couple in the past when were in the Palomares league


So when these group turn into Seniors, are you going to ditch them for the new Freshman's too??? 

I tried to understand you, but is kind of silly that you take away the experience from the Seniors to play their last year of HS Soccer to play  F/S, but yet haven't had a winning season since you been the coach. 

At least you are upfront and tell the Seniors that within your program nothing is guaranteed and not give them the run around.


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## MFranco (Dec 5, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> So when these group turn into Seniors, are you going to ditch them for the new Freshman's too???
> 
> I tried to understand you, but is kind of silly that you take away the experience from the Seniors to play their last year of HS Soccer to play  F/S, but yet haven't had a winning season since you been the coach.
> 
> At least you are upfront and tell the Seniors that within your program nothing is guaranteed and not give them the run around.


All we can do is be upfront with the kids. We have never dropped a player from Varsity down to JV. Just because someone doesn't make varsity their senior year doesn't mean we ditched anyone. Like I said, we give options for some to play JV when MANY programs will just get rid of them and tell them that rules wont allow them to play JV as a senior.

I guess everyone has their own way of dealing with things. I was merely commenting on the politics of  Club & HS soccer and I know club can be very political whereas we run our program as unbiased as possible despite what people might think. Other HS programs follow along with the political side and make players play for the club they are affiliated with otherwise they wont make their program I believe that is truly wrong but cant make everyone happy and cant have rosters of 40 players so just the way things go.


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## Sheriff Joe (Dec 5, 2018)

MFranco said:


> All we can do is be upfront with the kids. We have never dropped a player from Varsity down to JV. Just because someone doesn't make varsity their senior year doesn't mean we ditched anyone. Like I said, we give options for some to play JV when MANY programs will just get rid of them and tell them that rules wont allow them to play JV as a senior.
> 
> I guess everyone has their own way of dealing with things. I was merely commenting on the politics of  Club & HS soccer and I know club can be very political whereas we run our program as unbiased as possible despite what people might think. Other HS programs follow along with the political side and make players play for the club they are affiliated with otherwise they wont make their program I believe that is truly wrong but cant make everyone happy and cant have rosters of 40 players so just the way things go.


My kid watched her first Varsity game of the year at her HS [she's hurt] and said she wanted to pull her eyes out.


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## Zdrone (Dec 5, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My kid watched her first Varsity game of the year at her HS [she's hurt] and said she wanted to pull her eyes out.


I “liked” the sentiment.  Not the act...  just being clear


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## coachsamy (Jan 2, 2019)

Finally last week my DD got a call up to play a tournament with the Varsity team. After 1 game she became a starter and now she will stay with the team after making a difference after 4 games. 

The one part I did noticed and I'm glad it happened for her, is that she gets to enjoy the sport with her peers.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jan 2, 2019)

coachsamy said:


> Finally last week my DD got a call up to play a tournament with the Varsity team. After 1 game she became a starter and now she will stay with the team after making a difference after 4 games.
> 
> The one part I did noticed and I'm glad it happened for her, is that she gets to enjoy the sport with her peers.


What year is she?


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## Josep (Jan 2, 2019)

coachsamy said:


> Finally last week my DD got a call up to play a tournament with the Varsity team. After 1 game she became a starter and now she will stay with the team after making a difference after 4 games.
> 
> The one part I did noticed and I'm glad it happened for her, is that she gets to enjoy the sport with her peers.



Is it about her or really about you, as is the case with most of the situations in club soccer, hs soccer, and youth sports.  

Because you end casually with “she’s enjoying the sport with her peers.”  This seems like the throwaway sentiment.  This comes after the points you made of “called up” “being a starter” “staying with the team” and “making a difference.”  

To me, it seems like you are more vindicated now that this has happened.  Was she not enjoying playing with her peers on JV?


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## coachsamy (Jan 2, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What year is she?


Jr 01


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## Sheriff Joe (Jan 2, 2019)

coachsamy said:


> Jr 01


Credit to her for sticking with it, not easy.
My son stuck it out on JV his junior year, he came home one day and told me he threw 118 pitches in 1 game and I told him to tell the coach max 80 pitches and he never pitched again, made varsity his senior year and batted .476, the coach had a little more than egg on his face at the banquet.


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## Josep (Jan 2, 2019)

coachsamy said:


> Jr 01


Sounds like she will be a valuable member of the team next year as well. Glad the process worked for her.  Hard work usually triumphs politics.


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## coachsamy (Jan 2, 2019)

Josep said:


> Is it about her or really about you, as is the case with most of the situations in club soccer, hs soccer, and youth sports.
> 
> Because you end casually with “she’s enjoying the sport with her peers.”  This seems like the throwaway sentiment.  This comes after the points you made of “called up” “being a starter” “staying with the team” and “making a difference.”
> 
> To me, it seems like you are more vindicated now that this has happened.  Was she not enjoying playing with her peers on JV?


She was not with her peers. She was the only Jr in JV.

I'm not vindicated yet until the coach explain his logic behind not taking her from the get go. 

If her playing soccer was anything about me, she would still be playing in club. She's playing because she wants to, and enjoys spending time with her friends and peers.


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## coachsamy (Jan 2, 2019)

Josep said:


> Sounds like she will be a valuable member of the team next year as well. Glad the process worked for her.  Hard work usually triumphs politics.


Hopefully she is. Specially she already built rapport with the upcoming soph/frosh coming up, that will help her bridge them in as the seniors leave. Lots of positives should come out of this experience.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jan 2, 2019)

coachsamy said:


> She was not with her peers. She was the only Jr in JV.
> 
> I'm not vindicated yet until the coach explain his logic behind not taking her from the get go.
> 
> If her playing soccer was anything about me, she would still be playing in club. She's playing because she wants to, and enjoys spending time with her friends and peers.


Coaches are crazy, my kids High School team was down 0  2  at the half, down to 10 girls and the ref was out of control with cards and warnings [little man syndrome] and our coach pulled most of the starters for the second 1/2, we scored so it was 1  2 and he pulled all the starters out with 30 minutes left and just gave up. Horrible display for the girls to see.
It was all I could do not to grab my kid and leave for the year.


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## HBE (Oct 9, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> What league are you referring to that allows Seniors to compete on JV?


On the Girls side @ HBHS we had a senior play JV, I believe two years ago.


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## espola (Oct 9, 2019)

Short term rehab


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