# Coach Bullying



## Bananacorner

A USSDA club has had a lawsuit brought against them for, "unlawful bullying and mental and psychological abuse of players" by coaches employed by the club.  I understand they are citing Dr. Jennifer Fraser's work  “Brain Scars – The Neuroscience of Coach Bullying and its Impact on the Adolescent Brain" as evidence that the coaches have done irreparable neurological damage to the players.
http://www.nays.org/sklive/features/childhood-bullying-the-scars-remain-forever/

Who determines when a coach goes too far?  When is a coach "too tough" and when does aggressive coaching cross the line from motivating to destructive?  And does it differ by kid?  How is a coach to know where that line is to try and get the most out of their players?


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## Kicker4Life

If this becomes a popular movement, I can think of a Coach or 2 that should be sweating bullets.....


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## espola

Bananacorner said:


> A USSDA club has had a lawsuit brought against them for, "unlawful bullying and mental and psychological abuse of players" by coaches employed by the club.  I understand they are citing Dr. Jennifer Fraser's work  “Brain Scars – The Neuroscience of Coach Bullying and its Impact on the Adolescent Brain" as evidence that the coaches have done irreparable neurological damage to the players.
> http://www.nays.org/sklive/features/childhood-bullying-the-scars-remain-forever/
> 
> Who determines when a coach goes too far?  When is a coach "too tough" and when does aggressive coaching cross the line from motivating to destructive?  And does it differ by kid?  How is a coach to know where that line is to try and get the most out of their players?


Which club?


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## MWN

The USSDA is a USSF program.  The USSF should be adhering to the SafeSport program and those coaches should have SafeSport certificates (especially those assigned to USSDA teams).

As a general rule, a coach goes too far when the coach uses negative motivation techniques that are inappropriate for the age group and gender.  Bullying in coaching is generally words/actions that are repeatedly demeaning, threatening or aggressive towards a player with an intent to harm the player physically or emotionally and where an imbalance of power exists.

The recommended escalations path is: File a complaint with SafeSport.  If unresolved, seek legal action.

How is a coach to know?  A coach should do the following:
1. Register and take the SafeSport courses, get the activation code from your program.
2. Read the plethora of resources at https://www.positivecoach.org/
3. Understand the age and gender differences in your team.  What will be perceived as bullying at the U10 level will not be perceived at the U18 level.  A boys U17 team can be treated differently than a girls U17 team.

Its really not that hard.  If a coach is half-way intelligent they will figure out fairly quickly that "negative coaching" tends to not work nearly as well as "positive coaching."


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## Surfref

Kicker4Life said:


> If this becomes a popular movement, I can think of a Coach or 2 that should be sweating bullets.....


Maybe he will actually have to find a new profession that fits his name...Baker


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## Kicker4Life

Surfref said:


> Maybe he will actually have to find a new profession that fits his name...Baker


Make that 2 or 3 Coach’s then.....no experience with Baker. Only stories.....”iiiinnn cominggggg”


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## InTheValley

Dr. Fraser’s PhD is in comparative literature, which makes her less qualified than Dr. Seuss.

The irony of lawsuits like this is that we’ll see fewer good coaches as a result.  Good coaches have enough problems dealing with the likes of @Control Freak.  Now imagine they start getting sued by a control freak who can’t admit his daughter isn’t crying because the coach is hard on her; she’s crying because daddy is disappointed in her again and she thinks he’ll be even more disappointed if she admits she doesn’t even want to play anymore.  We’re going to be left with idiots who don’t realize coaching isn’t worth the headache, plus Baker because his club brings in a ton of revenue and presumably can afford insurance for this sort of thing.

I would never send my kid to Baker.  But can you really say that hurting little Bella’s feelings and perhaps realigning some of her neurons isn’t outweighed by the overall benefit of his, er, coaching style, which has helped get more girls get college scholarships or into first tier academic institutions than almost anyone else in the planet?


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## MWN

InTheValley said:


> Dr. Fraser’s PhD is in comparative literature, which makes her less qualified than Dr. Seuss.
> 
> The irony of lawsuits like this is that we’ll see fewer good coaches as a result.  Good coaches have enough problems dealing with the likes of @Control Freak.  Now imagine they start getting sued by a control freak who can’t admit his daughter isn’t crying because the coach is hard on her; she’s crying because daddy is disappointed in her again and she thinks he’ll be even more disappointed if she admits she doesn’t even want to play anymore.  We’re going to be left with idiots who don’t realize coaching isn’t worth the headache, plus Baker because his club brings in a ton of revenue and presumably can afford insurance for this sort of thing.
> 
> I would never send my kid to Baker.  But can you really say that hurting little Bella’s feelings and perhaps realigning some of her neurons isn’t outweighed by the overall benefit of his, er, coaching style, which has helped get more girls get college scholarships or into first tier academic institutions than almost anyone else in the planet?


Dr Suess dropped out of Oxford, so Dr. Fraser is a bit more qualified.  I found the article cited as wholly lacking and a summary of conclusory statements without support, typical of weak journalism.  Here is a better article with some footnotes.  https://www.edutopia.org/blog/what-neuroscience-reveals-bullying-by-educators-jennifer-fraser

One of the problems that I see is that kids are not one solution fits all subjects. Different kids have different psyches, and high-performing competitive kids tend to have much thicker skins than the majority of their classmates. This is not to say that coaching styles that rely on demeaning and abusive verbal taunts should be condoned. Rather, coaches should strive to get the best out of their athletes, which the vast majority of the time means that taking a more positive versus negative approach will work better.

Parents also have different psyches, some more abusive to their kids and others are not. Those parents that tend to have demeaning and abusive bully parenting techniques, tend to support coaches and educators that adhere to the same philosophies. In short, this style of coaching will be around for years to come because there's a market for it.


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## Sidekick

InTheValley said:


> Dr. Fraser’s PhD is in comparative literature, which makes her less qualified than Dr. Seuss.
> 
> The irony of lawsuits like this is that we’ll see fewer good coaches as a result.  Good coaches have enough problems dealing with the likes of @Control Freak.  Now imagine they start getting sued by a control freak who can’t admit his daughter isn’t crying because the coach is hard on her; she’s crying because daddy is disappointed in her again and she thinks he’ll be even more disappointed if she admits she doesn’t even want to play anymore.  We’re going to be left with idiots who don’t realize coaching isn’t worth the headache, plus Baker because his club brings in a ton of revenue and presumably can afford insurance for this sort of thing.
> 
> I would never send my kid to Baker.  But can you really say that hurting little Bella’s feelings and perhaps realigning some of her neurons isn’t outweighed by the overall benefit of his, er, coaching style, which has helped get more girls get college scholarships or into first tier academic institutions than almost anyone else in the planet?


Totally agree with In the Valley! Same goes with my kid's AP teacher compared to Baker. They push cuz they expect to get the best result out of their student. Life isn't easy and if you keep trying to soften every step for your kid, the real world will be very difficult! I wish all teams got the same Coaches on the sideline as Baker does. He obviously knows how to get his players to the next level.  The best part of playing the Baker teams in any showcase is the opportunity for my kid to step up their game and get looked at by some top notch coaches!


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## Texas2Cali

Multiple researchers in different relationship settings have demonstrated the value of positive coaching/feedback.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/words-can-change-your-brain/201208/the-most-dangerous-word-in-the-world

Marcial Losada (for corporate teams), John Gottman (for marriages) and Barbara Frederickson all come up with the same basic conclusion, that positive communication/feedback should be provided at a 5:1 ratio to negative feedback for optimal performance.

Even if your kid has thick skin, positivity leads to better performance.  Take a look at MWN's link to the Positive Coaching Alliance. It's really not that difficult to be positive and to have high expectations and get great performances.


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## MWN

Sidekick said:


> Totally agree with In the Valley! Same goes with my kid's AP teacher compared to Baker. They push cuz they expect to get the best result out of their student. Life isn't easy and if you keep trying to soften every step for your kid, the real world will be very difficult! I wish all teams got the same Coaches on the sideline as Baker does. He obviously knows how to get his players to the next level.  The best part of playing the Baker teams in any showcase is the opportunity for my kid to step up their game and get looked at by some top notch coaches!


I think its important to understand the difference between "negative" coaching v. being an A-Hole bully coach who uses taunts and demeaning statements intended to emotionally break down a player.

Negative: (Intent is to instruct
"Breanna, for the 3rd time time, get wide and push up"
"What are you thinking!!!"
"Bobby, you can't sit on your line on those 1 on 1's, get out and get aggressive."

Bully Style: (Intent is to demean for no purpose other than to hurt)
"Hey dumbass, how many times to I need to tell you to push your fat ass up the field and get wide."
"Are you an idiot?"
"Bobby, grow an f'ing pair and challenge, unless you want to be moved to the Girls U8 team."

Positive Style: 
"Breanna, I like how you are making yourself available , but, this is our midfielders area of responsibility, we need you to provide width and push up so we can switch the field and move the defender out of the area."
"Brush it off!"
"Bobby, I liked your starting position and stance, next time step up and steal that ground earlier like you did in practice."

As mentioned above, the magic ratio is 5:1 for youth and as they get older and more competitive the ratio drops, but there really is no legitimate defense for youth coaches to be A-Hole Bullies.


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## Bananacorner

I'm not going to mention the club, these are unproven allegations, and the details (which coach yelled at which kid and how sucky was that kid) isn't public, and even if it was, I don't think it is necessary to the discussion (but sure, it is interesting).  All the comments are on the mark, because we all know this happens every day at 100s of clubs.  The point isn't who is in trouble this time, it is whether this is a "real" issue or not.  And if it is, then how do other coaches/clubs keep out of trouble.  And for parents and coaches the question is, is bullying or even just negative coaching table stakes to play the game or can kids be competitive without this?  Some make the case that it shouldn't be and there is no evidence to support this type of approach, whereas others are saying, "look at Baker."  I myself know that there are very successful coaches whose whole career is based on this style of negative combined with bully coaching, and they will defend it to the grave as the secret to their success.  

If/when the case becomes public, I will pass it along, but for now, its just a lawsuit.  Could get laughed out of court for all I know.


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## MWN

Bananacorner said:


> I'm not going to mention the club ... If/when the case becomes public, I will pass it along, but for now, its just a lawsuit.  Could get laughed out of court for all I know.


If its a "lawsuit" then the claims have moved from demand letters to a formal complaint and has been field with the Court, lawsuits are "public records."


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## MWN

toucan said:


> This "lawsuit for bullying has been filed" story has the whiff of fake news to me.  ...
> There is no legal cause of action for "bullying," whether by a coach or anyone else.  The cause of action would have to be for assault, battery, or more tenuously, for intentional infliction of emotional distress.  ... I would love to see the allegations of the pleadings.


Yes and no.  To the extent this is a USSDA club, it is sanctioned by the USSF and subject to the US Olympic Committee rules and regulations.  The USSF mandates USSDA clubs and coaches adhere to its policies and procedures and adopt various SafeSport related policies (anti-harassment, sexual abuse, anti-bullying, etc.).  More likely than not, any claims of bullying or harassment would also have a basis in contract law to the extent the player is a direct beneficiary or 3rd party beneficiary of the policy.  I could also see some creative fraud and harassment claims being made based on State and Federal law (education and/or workplace harassment laws).  Lastly, we don't know what State this alleged lawsuit has been filed in.  There are some states with anti-bullying laws that may provide a statutory basis beyond common law tort theories.


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## InTheValley

MWN said:


> I think its important to understand the difference between "negative" coaching v. being an A-Hole bully coach who uses taunts and demeaning statements intended to emotionally break down a player.
> 
> Negative: (Intent is to instruct
> "Breanna, for the 3rd time time, get wide and push up"
> "What are you thinking!!!"
> "Bobby, you can't sit on your line on those 1 on 1's, get out and get aggressive."
> 
> Bully Style: (Intent is to demean for no purpose other than to hurt)
> "Hey dumbass, how many times to I need to tell you to push your fat ass up the field and get wide."
> "Are you an idiot?"
> "Bobby, grow an f'ing pair and challenge, unless you want to be moved to the Girls U8 team."
> 
> Positive Style:
> "Breanna, I like how you are making yourself available , but, this is our midfielders area of responsibility, we need you to provide width and push up so we can switch the field and move the defender out of the area."
> "Brush it off!"
> "Bobby, I liked your starting position and stance, next time step up and steal that ground earlier like you did in practice."
> 
> As mentioned above, the magic ratio is 5:1 for youth and as they get older and more competitive the ratio drops, but there really is no legitimate defense for youth coaches to be A-Hole Bullies.


Hyperbole aside (briefly),  I agree with what you’re saying.  That said, I don’t think a dispute over whether a parent’s perception that a coach’s behavior falls under the “bullying” vs. “negative” category, or meets a 5:1 ratio, has any business being litigated in the courts.

I don’t have a PhD in comparative literature, but it seems to me that a parent has an absolute obligation to step in and remove their daughter from the situation long before it might cause permanent neurological damage or justify a lawsuit, and the fact that they didn’t makes me think the allegations are highly exaggerated or concocted after the fact by a crazy soccer dad when things didn’t work out.  A parent is much better positioned than any coach to evaluate their daughter’s sensitivity, how their child reacts to negative coaching, and also their subjective determination whether particular conduct constituted bullying or just 1:5 (or less) negative coaching.  Even assuming what they allege is true, which I doubt, it means they either sat idly by or failed to pay any attention while their daughter was subjected to ongoing verbal abuse sufficient to cause permanent neurological damage. Perhaps some self reflection is in order, rather than a lawsuit for money damages.


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## El Clasico

toucan said:


> There is no legal cause of action for "bullying," whether by a coach or anyone else.  The cause of action would have to be for assault, battery, or more tenuously, for intentional infliction of emotional distress.  A battery requires some kind of physical contact.  An assault requires putting a person (a player in this instance) in reasonable apprehension of physical harm.  This is an unlikely thing to happen, but imaginable in the context of high emotions.
> 
> Intentional infliction of emotional distress requires outrageous conduct taken with the specific intent to cause a player serious emotional distress.  I cannot imagine a coach intentionally trying to cause a player emotional distress.  As unseemly as it might be, I doubt that screaming or berating qualifies.  I would love to see the allegations of the pleadings.


I agree!! Sounds like someone with an agenda making sh*t up to start a thread. Love the claim that it's only a lawsuit right now so need to keep it private. Sounds to me like a few people on this board have never seen the inside of a courtroom....or better yet, all the fun stuff that leading up to it.  If indeed a lawsuit had been filed, not only would it already be public but plaintiffs (assuming it's the parents) would be shredded before they ever got on the stand. Most rational people (prospective jurors) would find that the parents carry a larger burden than the defendants in this case.  Excuse me Mr. White, what where you doing for 12 months while Mr. Green was "bullying" your child? Ignoring it? Did you ask about it?  Did you remove your child from that environment? Oh, I see. So you believe that Mr. Green has a higher degree of responsibility for the well being of YOUR child than you do. Thank you for the clarification.


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## espola

Bananacorner said:


> I'm not going to mention the club, these are unproven allegations, and the details (which coach yelled at which kid and how sucky was that kid) isn't public, and even if it was, I don't think it is necessary to the discussion (but sure, it is interesting).  All the comments are on the mark, because we all know this happens every day at 100s of clubs.  The point isn't who is in trouble this time, it is whether this is a "real" issue or not.  And if it is, then how do other coaches/clubs keep out of trouble.  And for parents and coaches the question is, is bullying or even just negative coaching table stakes to play the game or can kids be competitive without this?  Some make the case that it shouldn't be and there is no evidence to support this type of approach, whereas others are saying, "look at Baker."  I myself know that there are very successful coaches whose whole career is based on this style of negative combined with bully coaching, and they will defend it to the grave as the secret to their success.
> 
> If/when the case becomes public, I will pass it along, but for now, its just a lawsuit.  Could get laughed out of court for all I know.


If it's a lawsuit, it's already public.

Which club?


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## Bananacorner

All the pressure, I really want all of you to like me, so I'm going to tell you the club and the coaches, at least one who was put on temporary leave, and all the information that I was told in confidence about this club, even though I shouldn't because you are all pressuring me and telling me I'm lying, and I HAVE to prove it to you!!!  NOT
Whatever its called -- lawsuit or filing or formal complaint or lickmyass letter --it isn't public yet, and I'm not going to tell you who it is, so deal with it.


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## espola

Bananacorner said:


> All the pressure, I really want all of you to like me, so I'm going to tell you the club and the coaches, at least one who was put on temporary leave, and all the information that I was told in confidence about this club, even though I shouldn't because you are all pressuring me and telling me I'm lying, and I HAVE to prove it to you!!!  NOT
> Whatever its called -- lawsuit or filing or formal complaint or lickmyass letter --it isn't public yet, and I'm not going to tell you who it is, so deal with it.


How did you find out about it?


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## INFAMEE

Bananacorner said:


> A USSDA club has had a lawsuit brought against them for, "unlawful bullying and mental and psychological abuse of players" by coaches employed by the club.  I understand they are citing Dr. Jennifer Fraser's work  “Brain Scars – The Neuroscience of Coach Bullying and its Impact on the Adolescent Brain" as evidence that the coaches have done irreparable neurological damage to the players.
> http://www.nays.org/sklive/features/childhood-bullying-the-scars-remain-forever/
> 
> Who determines when a coach goes too far?  When is a coach "too tough" and when does aggressive coaching cross the line from motivating to destructive?  And does it differ by kid?  How is a coach to know where that line is to try and get the most out of their players?


It's Arsenal FC.


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## Josep

I’d say we have soft kids, but really there are a ton of soft parents in club soccer.  Good grief.  No clue of how things are.


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## Soccer43

why even start this thread?  either really discuss it or don't.  sounds like you are just trying to create drama.  if you wanted to keep it all hush hush then why did you even come on a public forum in the first place.


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## Nutmeg

Josep said:


> I’d say we have soft kids, but really there are a ton of soft parents in club soccer.  Good grief.  No clue of how things are.


So how are things? Tell us


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## Lambchop

Sidekick said:


> Totally agree with In the Valley! Same goes with my kid's AP teacher compared to Baker. They push cuz they expect to get the best result out of their student. Life isn't easy and if you keep trying to soften every step for your kid, the real world will be very difficult! I wish all teams got the same Coaches on the sideline as Baker does. He obviously knows how to get his players to the next level.  The best part of playing the Baker teams in any showcase is the opportunity for my kid to step up their game and get looked at by some top notch coaches![/QUOTE
> A lot of coaches get their players looked at by top notch college coaches!


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## push_up

Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper

push_up said:


> Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


This behavior should not be tolerated.  Regardless of the sex of the coach or the athlete.  In any sport - ever.  I, like most of you, have seen the football coach losing his mind on a player (pop warner or collegiate), the arena soccer coach who acts like he is coaching in the world cup, and on and on.  WE have to demand better from the coaches.  WE have to be willing to step in when the lines are crossed.  Yes, life is tough and many a days as  a grown up you get your teeth kicked in and have to get up, dust yourself off and keep going, but that isn't an excuse for deplorable behavior.  WE need to demand better.  On the pitch, in the classroom, in the board room.  This isn't acceptable behavior, and WE need to be the ones to make it stop.  Not to mention the negative impact on performance.  Expect more/demand more.


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## azsnowrider

push_up said:


> Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


Good to know, since it's the DA tryout season with this club. Is this frequent behavior?


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## coachsamy

push_up said:


> Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


That counts as someone looking to get clocked right in the nose!


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## outside!

push_up said:


> Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


If I see someone lays hands on one of my kids like that, they better be looking around for me running across the field and forcing my way in between the player and coach. I will not allow anyone to teach my kids that it is OK to endure physical abuse. There is a good chance I would stick up for my kid's teammates as well.


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## push_up

azsnowrider said:


> Good to know, since it's the DA tryout season with this club. Is this frequent behavior?


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## Josep

Nutmeg said:


> So how are things? Tell us


We are paying customers.  If we find our kids are being treated unacceptably, discuss with coach.  If nothing changes, discuss with DOC.   Leave if need be. Now, some coaches are yellers.   Do your homework people.  Don’t sign with an asshole regardless of what patches and logos are on the kit.  We hold the power.  

I’ve had these discussions with coaches and have threatened to pull my kid, but I also know that this continues in HS, college, and higher.  Look at mourinho and Shaw. 

And yes, if a coach ever laid a hand on my kids, id knock him out.   I agree that it’s much more detrimental to have a grown man verbally or mentally abusing our young women/girls because it can have damning effects on their relationships later in life.


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## clarino

azsnowrider said:


> Good to know, since it's the DA tryout season with this club. Is this frequent behavior?


Historically verbally abusive coach but will obviously become physical.  He has called girls sluts, cunt, tells them they are fucking stupid.  He singles out individual kids for his abuse.  It is not the entire team but the entire team does witness it.  It definitely puts divisiveness among the team.  During the game as he trolls the sidelines, he will say out loud things like "did you see that bad touch, she is terrible, that pass was fucking retarded, I don't know why she is on the team", etc.).  He is the director of the only DA in Arizona.  The same behavior was happening 10+ years ago but he is still around abusing children and adults.  Too bad that kid was 18 or DCS would have been called.  Parents are scared of the DA Director of course.  He has no problem taking it out on his players.  One parent lodges a complaint and he will start the psychological abuse.  Just ask some of the kids that tried to play or did play high school.  He went so far as to call and threaten to call verbally committed DA players’ college coaches as a means to threaten their scholarship.  He took captain away from a player because she was “considering” playing high school.  It is why nobody complains.  I guess it’s parents messed up way to keep their kid safe so they can play at the highest level. 

Oh, and you know what is sadder.  The younger kids all dream of playing for him.  After all, he coached Leroux, Ertz, and Turnbow.  It is OK.  He does not abuse everyone.  Just certain ones.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/arizona-club-soccer-produces-scholarship-backed-players-but-at-what-cost-6393255


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## Josep

Video doesn’t lie.  Get that and share with the news stations.  Career over.


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## Bananacorner

toucan said:


> In other words, there is no lawsuit.  Maybe a complaint or a letter.  So why did you say this in your original post?
> 
> "A USSDA club *has had a lawsuit brought against them* for, "unlawful bullying and mental and psychological abuse of players" by coaches employed by the club."
> 
> What is your agenda?


My agenda?  OK, you got me, you found my out -- my agenda is to bring down the whole DA by spreading a rumor about a DA club who bullied players.  Too bad I slipped and said, "has had a lawsuit filed" instead of "is having a lawsuit filed" and now I've been found out.  Wow, you are just to sharp for me, and you have now foiled my plan. 
​


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## espola

Bananacorner said:


> My agenda?  OK, you got me, you found my out -- my agenda is to bring down the whole DA by spreading a rumor about a DA club who bullied players.  Too bad I slipped and said, "has had a lawsuit filed" instead of "is having a lawsuit filed" and now I've been found out.  Wow, you are just to sharp for me, and you have now foiled my plan.
> ​


How did you find out the lawsuit is going to be filed?


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## El Clasico

Bananacorner said:


> My agenda?  OK, you got me, you found my out -- my agenda is to bring down the whole DA by spreading a rumor about a DA club who bullied players.  Too bad I slipped and said, "has had a lawsuit filed" instead of "is having a lawsuit filed" and now I've been found out.  Wow, you are just to sharp for me, and you have now foiled my plan.
> ​


Just so I understand you correctly Banancorner, you make a statement about an action taken against a club that is completely made up, about a coach that is nameless, you get caught in your little deceitful web of lies and get called out on it and YOU become indignant? Why are you offended? Shouldn't you be apologizing rather than smirking at the posters who question the accuracy of your statements?  Maybe, you could have just been more open and honest upfront.


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## futboldad1

clarino said:


> Historically verbally abusive coach but will obviously become physical.  He has called girls sluts, cunt, tells them they are fucking stupid.  He singles out individual kids for his abuse.  It is not the entire team but the entire team does witness it.  It definitely puts divisiveness among the team.  During the game as he trolls the sidelines, he will say out loud things like "did you see that bad touch, she is terrible, that pass was fucking retarded, I don't know why she is on the team", etc.).  He is the director of the only DA in Arizona.  The same behavior was happening 10+ years ago but he is still around abusing children and adults.  Too bad that kid was 18 or DCS would have been called.  Parents are scared of the DA Director of course.  He has no problem taking it out on his players.  One parent lodges a complaint and he will start the psychological abuse.  Just ask some of the kids that tried to play or did play high school.  He went so far as to call and threaten to call verbally committed DA players’ college coaches as a means to threaten their scholarship.  He took captain away from a player because she was “considering” playing high school.  It is why nobody complains.  I guess it’s parents messed up way to keep their kid safe so they can play at the highest level.
> 
> Oh, and you know what is sadder.  The younger kids all dream of playing for him.  After all, he coached Leroux, Ertz, and Turnbow.  It is OK.  He does not abuse everyone.  Just certain ones.
> 
> http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/arizona-club-soccer-produces-scholarship-backed-players-but-at-what-cost-6393255


This is unreal, at least I wish it was. Thanks for sharing. I'll include this quote from the news article to accompany the shocking stuff you added.  "Les Armstrong, 45, forged his (a kid's) name to get him off the team." Banned for 5 months and yet here he is, back coaching and getting paid handsomely as girls director. Awful. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## MWN

toucan said:


> Look, Bananacorner, when you accuse people of doing things, then accuracy counts.  I don't support abusive coaches and neither does anyone on this Board.  But nobody supports people who scream out factually incorrect statements concerning abusive coaches.  Stick to the truth and you'll be fine.


@toucan, @ElClasico and @espola,  

In @Bananacorner's defense, he/she did not "accuse" anybody doing things, did not name the offending club or coach and refused to breach the confidentiality to which he/she was entrusted.  Which, is fine by me because naming names would simply be gossip if the matter is not in the public record.  Clearly he/she made an error is stating a "lawsuit had been filed," and then claiming its not public, but this fact is really irrelevant to the discussion and questions.

If you go back and look at the original post, the understanding that a lawsuit was filed that was citing some article was merely to set up the four questions he/she asked, which were:

Who determines when a coach goes too far? 
When is a coach "too tough" and when does aggressive coaching cross the line from motivating to destructive? 
And does it differ by kid? 
How is a coach to know where that line is to try and get the most out of their players?
The above questions are fair and this type of discussion is good.  Whether the "claims" are at the pre-litigation or litigation stage is inconsequential.

Bottom line is there are plenty of resources out there to help coaches and parents understand where that "line" is.  
​


----------



## Justafan

MWN said:


> Bully Style: (Intent is to demean for no purpose other than to hurt)
> "Hey dumbass, how many times to I need to tell you to push your fat ass up the field and get wide."
> "Are you an idiot?"
> "Bobby, grow an f'ing pair and challenge, unless you want to be moved to the Girls U8 team."


LMAO


----------



## El Clasico

MWN said:


> @toucan, @ElClasico and @espola,
> 
> In @Bananacorner's defense, he/she did not "accuse" anybody doing things, did not name the offending club or coach and refused to breach the confidentiality to which he/she was entrusted.  Which, is fine by me because naming names would simply be gossip if the matter is not in the public record.  Clearly he/she made an error is stating a "lawsuit had been filed," and then claiming its not public, but this fact is really irrelevant to the discussion and questions.
> 
> If you go back and look at the original post, the understanding that a lawsuit was filed that was citing some article was merely to set up the four questions he/she asked, which were:
> 
> Who determines when a coach goes too far?
> When is a coach "too tough" and when does aggressive coaching cross the line from motivating to destructive?
> And does it differ by kid?
> How is a coach to know where that line is to try and get the most out of their players?
> The above questions are fair and this type of discussion is good.  Whether the "claims" are at the pre-litigation or litigation stage is inconsequential.
> 
> Bottom line is there are plenty of resources out there to help coaches and parents understand where that "line" is.
> ​


Look Spin Master, coming to her defense is part of the problem.  She either intentionally or unintentionally lied, and when called out on it, became indignant.  She could have just said "my bad" and went away but she felt the need to come back again and again to feign offense.

Here's a thought, maybe it is her child that was allegedly "bullied" and she wanted to vent about it but the only real question in my mind is this... If, as a parent, any parent, you feel that this behavior has been occurring for a prolonged period of time, why didn't/wouldn't you stand up for your child before it got to this point? Having 4 of my own gone through the process, three in college, one two years away, and all of them having played and enjoyed multiple sports, I have seen a lot of garbage but there is one thing that stands truer than anything else you will hear on these boards.  Soccer parents are the biggest P*ssys of all sports parents.  And I say that sadly as soccer is the sport of my native country and this is not the case there, nor in any other country where I have lived. Coaches will be tough on kids and that is ok but the parents must be their child's most trustworthy protector and that is not the case here.  99% of these kids playing club will do nothing soccer related after they finish high school but the parents will sell their soul to be on this team or that team or have this coach or that coach.  Very sad that these marketing machine clubs sell you on what you are supposed to do and how you are supposed to respond.


----------



## Justafan

toucan said:


> Positive Style:  "Bobby, I really like the way you share the ball with the other team."


LOL


----------



## watfly

futboldad1 said:


> This is unreal, at least I wish it was. Thanks for sharing. I'll include this quote from the news article to accompany the shocking stuff you added.  "Les Armstrong, 45, forged his (a kid's) name to get him off the team." Banned for 5 months and yet here he is, back coaching and getting paid handsomely as girls director. Awful.
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Shame on him for his actions and shame on US Soccer for giving him the only DA in Arizona.  Best case is US Soccer failed to do any due diligence or worst case they ignored the evidence against this guy.  It really calls into question the competence and/or integrity of the USSDA.


----------



## Nutmeg

Not to go off on a tangent but since the formation of DA, I have noticed an increased pattern of off the field issues being posting on this board of issues that parents are currently navigating, that are legit concerns. These include Minor sex crimes, improper communication with children, coach and club bullying, retaliation by coaches, club failure to communicate or warn parents of improper or illegal behavior, etc. The frequency of these posts is alarming. What concerns me more is that with every post of improper behavior there are those that seek to always be contrarian. Very rarely do they defend the act but rather they marginalize the posters as club bashing lunatics who are posting fake news for some evil agenda. Sure your DD was used as a sexual  fantasy by a grown ass man but it’s not that bad cause she was almost 18!  No clubs don’t have to warn parents they hired a sex predator because the law says they don’t have too so stop talking about it. It’s ok to call a girl a lazy cun. Because kids are soft and he’s just motivating her.  
I guess my question is why? If it’s bullshi. Most will know on here and call it out, but that’s not the case in most instances. Most are issues that we need to discuss openly. 
I believe the greatest trick in club soccer is how clubs can play parents against each other, intentionally and unintentionally to their benefit.


----------



## BananaKick

Nefutous said:


> @BananaKick   It would be nice to know the club and the specific allegations.  Who knows, this could be an extreme situation so that all the comments above are way off the mark.  Apples and oranges?


#Nefutous I think you were talking to #Bananacorner I do not know anything about this topic.


----------



## Nutmeg

toucan said:


> Nutmeg, I think you have it wrong.  People like me are not "contrarian" just because we demand factual and evidence-based posting when it comes to accusing coaches of sex crimes, bullying, retaliation, and the other matters you raised.  Coaches who do these things are not to be tolerated.
> 
> The problem is that many posters raising these issues is that they are usually outraged about whatever the situation is.  They are often disorganized in their factual presentation, or they misstate facts and make false assumptions.  They often provide highly-charged, and often unwarranted opinions as part of their presentation.  Only very rarely are vetted facts presented.  So it is impossible for a careful reader to validate their highly-charged claims.
> 
> And then you get people, like Smellycleats, who have a personal beef with somebody, bordering upon an obsession, trying to connect every possible problem with the incident that happened years ago between their daughter and another parent on the team.  (The Eagles did not slap down a parent who was obnoxious to my daughter, therefore the Eagles knew about a coach's improper relationship with a player on one of their teams, although nobody else knew, and nobody told them about it.)
> 
> Requesting factual and evidentiary support is not "contrarian," and is not meant to support wrongdoers.  It is meant to obtain sufficient information to make an informed opinion as to the claims raised.


I agree with you on the merit.  My response would be that there is only so many facts a parent can bring to the table. There is no true way to provide proof or evidence of anything on the forum. There is no smoking gun or illicit documents or thumb drives containing wire transfers, dirty pictures, etc.   Most of if not all of what is posted comes from first hand information. Sometimes it is phrased as second hand to further protect identities but it is always a personal issue. If for example another poster can add to or refute a claim than that is fine as the dialogue is further advanced. But what seems to be happening is that denier has no more knowledge or evidence of anything and is merely being a club soccer system protector. I’m not saying it’s you personally. We can agree to disagree and that’s the point.  My philosophy is that even mistated or mistaken information has a certain amount of truth to it. That  truth is usuful and yes it should be debated but not shouted down.  Clubs, coaches, leagues, do not need more protection or benefit of the doubt. They will survive and need to be questioned more not less. Rather than us parents always having to provide clean factual information how about the clubs do it, the league does it, or the coach. They don’t, because they know how to divide and segregate parents. I have soccer nightmares, I can’t sleep so I read this forum all night. Boys and girls side, its just something I’ve noticed...that there’s more now than before supporting the club rather than the parent poster.


----------



## Nefutous

BananaKick said:


> #Nefutous I think you were talking to #Bananacorner I do not know anything about this topic.


Sorry, one too many bananas on my mind. Fixed it.


----------



## InTheValley

Nutmeg said:


> Not to go off on a tangent but since the formation of DA, I have noticed an increased pattern of off the field issues being posting on this board of issues that parents are currently navigating, that are legit concerns. These include Minor sex crimes, improper communication with children, coach and club bullying, retaliation by coaches, club failure to communicate or warn parents of improper or illegal behavior, etc. The frequency of these posts is alarming. What concerns me more is that with every post of improper behavior there are those that seek to always be contrarian. Very rarely do they defend the act but rather they marginalize the posters as club bashing lunatics who are posting fake news for some evil agenda. Sure your DD was used as a sexual  fantasy by a grown ass man but it’s not that bad cause she was almost 18!  No clubs don’t have to warn parents they hired a sex predator because the law says they don’t have too so stop talking about it. It’s ok to call a girl a lazy cun. Because kids are soft and he’s just motivating her.
> I guess my question is why? If it’s bullshi. Most will know on here and call it out, but that’s not the case in most instances. Most are issues that we need to discuss openly.
> I believe the greatest trick in club soccer is how clubs can play parents against each other, intentionally and unintentionally to their benefit.


What are you talking about?  The original poster apparently lied about a lawsuit for what appears, in retrospect, to be a sales pitch for someone’s book, or so they could get some attention. That they made up a fake lawsuit in which a fake club’s fake coach is fake-ly accused of causing girls PTSD is the very definition of a “club bashing lunatic”, don’t you think?  Seriously, if you want to present a “what if” hypothetical for discussion of how a club should handle a problem coach, don’t present it as a serious lawsuit against a DA club that is allowing its coach to cause PTSD to young girls.  It is also worth noting that the only actual coach accused of wrongdoing in this thread - the AZ coach - has not been defended by anyone, which does not support your theory.

I know you mean well, but I don’t think you realize who is doing the “bashing” here.  You are criticizing people who were skeptical - for good reason it turns out - because they sought factual support and failed to take what turned out to be a lie at face value.  In support of your position, you (ironically) attempted to marginalize their legitimate concerns by equating them to alleged posters who as best I can tell don’t exist, but whom you claim go around saying it it ok for coaches to call girls lazy c**ts and who defend child molesters.  And who, exactly, is the coach treating my daughter as a sexual fantasy?   And which club knew or should have known they hired a sexual predator?  If you want to discuss serious issues openly and honestly, the first thing that needs to happen is to stop making things up. 

Long live the skeptics.


----------



## Nutmeg

InTheValley said:


> What are you talking about?  The original poster apparently lied about a lawsuit for what appears, in retrospect, to be a sales pitch for someone’s book, or so they could get some attention. That they made up a fake lawsuit in which a fake club’s fake coach is fake-ly accused of causing girls PTSD is the very definition of a “club bashing lunatic”, don’t you think?  Seriously, if you want to present a “what if” hypothetical for discussion of how a club should handle a problem coach, don’t present it as a serious lawsuit against a DA club that is allowing its coach to cause PTSD to young girls.  It is also worth noting that the only actual coach accused of wrongdoing in this thread - the AZ coach - has not been defended by anyone, which does not support your theory.
> 
> I know you mean well, but I don’t think you realize who is doing the “bashing” here.  You are criticizing people who were skeptical - for good reason it turns out - because they sought factual support and failed to take what turned out to be a lie at face value.  In support of your position, you (ironically) attempted to marginalize their legitimate concerns by equating them to alleged posters who as best I can tell don’t exist, but whom you claim go around saying it it ok for coaches to call girls lazy c**ts and who defend child molesters.  And who, exactly, is the coach treating my daughter as a sexual fantasy?   And which club knew or should have known they hired a sexual predator?  If you want to discuss serious issues openly and honestly, the first thing that needs to happen is to stop making things up.
> 
> Long live the skeptics.


You’ve been the valley too long dude. I never said bashing.  My point is that far too often the conversation that’s needs to be had about anything off the field gets hijacked by those who relate everything back to their own experiences.  I’m not talking to you individually intentioned I was not just referring to this thread, I don’t know you or your kid.  You are literally making my point for me. I posted that this forum and what people post on it should be debated and discussed. I don’t know each poster and their motives. I don’t know if they are lying or not. What I do want is to have the larger discussion of the topic, any topic. Why are you so irritated? Really, nothing I wrote is that bad. It’s just have the debate.  When the current climate is rife with sexualized behavior by adults with young athletes and coaches are either accused of or someone has a experience related to that topic with SoCal soccer,  It should be discussed, here.  I and many on here can tell of times our kids or teammates were verbally abused, yelled at stories of players crying, forced  to quit, illicit texting and emails from coaches. It’s out there. But if parents feel they can’t post that because others ask for facts or proof and belittle that than all we are left with is conformity. When we need more skepticism of everything. Whether or not the facts fit your definition of what is and shouldn’t be mentioned is pointless. Not everyone on here cares about what inside knowledge people have of each post.


----------



## Bananacorner

Valley valley valley. Now I’m selling books?  Wow. Just... wow. 

I think what people are trying to tell you is you’re missing the forest for the trees - you are so far off the topic that no one can even follow you, ok?

You’re skeptical of my story?  No one cares. Got it?


----------



## MWN

toucan said:


> Positive Style:  "Bobby, I really like the way you share the ball with the other team.  You are very close to earning a spot on our G2008 Cotillion squad."


Many years ago I was coaching a Rec Coed U10 team.  I said to the players that one of our goals this season was that "everybody" scored at least 1 goal this season.  We had a young girl (8) that was smaller than every player, it was her 1st year playing soccer and she was lucky to kick the ball 4 feet if she used everything she had.  We were down to 2 games left in the season, everybody but her had scored even though she played forward almost every game.  She was sitting back as a defender and got confused and kicked the ball right into our own goal.  The goalkeeper didn't have a chance (of course he wasn't expecting it either).

She stood there stunned as what she had done slowly dawned on her.  Then the waterworks.  She even collapsed to her knees, her head burried in her hands to hide the tears,  For the last few minutes she just stood there sobbing.

All I could do from the sideline was tell her to "brush it off, don't worry."  She walked back to the sidelines, defeated and tears still in her eyes.  But those tears quickly dried up and gave way to a huge smile because her teammates and I were all cheering "We did it, we did it, you scored."  I had the kids jumping up and down and dancing (we'll most of them, except for the super-competitive boys (my son) who was confused why I was celebrating an own goal.)


----------



## InTheValley

Nutmeg said:


> You’ve been the valley too long dude. I never said bashing.  My point is that far too often the conversation that’s needs to be had about anything off the field gets hijacked by those who relate everything back to their own experiences.  I’m not talking to you individually intentioned I was not just referring to this thread, I don’t know you or your kid.  You are literally making my point for me. I posted that this forum and what people post on it should be debated and discussed. I don’t know each poster and their motives. I don’t know if they are lying or not. What I do want is to have the larger discussion of the topic, any topic. Why are you so irritated? Really, nothing I wrote is that bad. It’s just have the debate.  When the current climate is rife with sexualized behavior by adults with young athletes and coaches are either accused of or someone has a experience related to that topic with SoCal soccer,  It should be discussed, here.  I and many on here can tell of times our kids or teammates were verbally abused, yelled at stories of players crying, forced  to quit, illicit texting and emails from coaches. It’s out there. But if parents feel they can’t post that because others ask for facts or proof and belittle that than all we are left with is conformity. When we need more skepticism of everything. Whether or not the facts fit your definition of what is and shouldn’t be mentioned is pointless. Not everyone on here cares about what inside knowledge people have of each post.


The current climate is rife with sexualized behavior?  Sure,
there is the occasional bad actor in every profession, but really?  So now there a deep state of sexual predators in youth club soccer?  A pizzagate tunnel between Blues and Slammers so that Clinton, er Baker, can cause little girls PTSD?

I’m totally happy to discuss facts, if you can ever point one out.  Let’s discuss one of these illicit texts or emails, for example.  If they’re real and as nefarious as you say, don’t you have an obligation to tell people lest other children get subjected to similar nefariousness?  Let’s expose these deep staters once and for all. Maybe we can finally prove that Baker and Obama eat children when no one is looking.


----------



## Nutmeg

InTheValley said:


> The current climate is rife with sexualized behavior?  Sure,
> there is the occasional bad actor in every profession, but really?  So now there a deep state of sexual predators in youth club soccer?  A pizzagate tunnel between Blues and Slammers so that Clinton, er Baker, can cause little girls PTSD?
> 
> I’m totally happy to discuss facts, if you can ever point one out.  Let’s discuss one of these illicit texts or emails, for example.  If they’re real and as nefarious as you say, don’t you have an obligation to tell people lest other children get subjected to similar nefariousness?  Let’s expose these deep staters once and for all. Maybe we can finally prove that Baker and Obama eat children when no one is looking.


Again nothing I said I bad. I just said more debate that’s it. Clearly we have a breakdown in understanding. So I will type using smaller words for you. I don’t know Baker, don’t know Clinton. And I  don’t know What the F your talking about or why your a dick. Maybe you didn’t get enough hugs from your parents.   If you believe that youth soccer is all rainbows and sunshine and no kid is subject to Asshat coaches and clubs doing weird and borderline stuff with players than great for you. Clearly our experiences have been different. I heard AYSO is super chill so no wonder. You like Facts, here’s one for you.  Next time your DD makes a national team training lmk and we can talk about this further. Til then A hole.


----------



## InTheValley

Nutmeg said:


> Again nothing I said I bad. I just said more debate that’s it. Clearly we have a breakdown in understanding. So I will type using smaller words for you. I don’t know Baker, don’t know Clinton. And I  don’t know What the F your talking about or why your a dick. Maybe you didn’t get enough hugs from your parents.   If you believe that youth soccer is all rainbows and sunshine and no kid is subject to Asshat coaches and clubs doing weird and borderline stuff with players than great for you. Clearly our experiences have been different. I heard AYSO is super chill so no wonder. You like Facts, here’s one for you.  Next time your DD makes a national team training lmk and we can talk about this further. Til then A hole.


So we agree then that you don’t have any factual basis for anything you’re saying?  We agree, right?

Are you seeing the irony that you accuse fake coaches of using foul language to bully people, you also  accuse people like me of bullying by questioning obvious false misrepresentations, and yet here you are the one using the foul language.  I feel so victimized.  Must be time for a lawsuit.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life

watfly said:


> Shame on him for his actions and shame on US Soccer for giving him the only DA in Arizona.  Best case is US Soccer failed to do any due diligence or worst case they ignored the evidence against this guy.  It really calls into question the competence and/or integrity of the USSDA.


You are right about blaming US Soccer fro giving him the only DA in Arizona but how about the parents that allowed him to abuse their kids.
How about Shame on the parents to say " Well, it's DA so let;'s just have him bully our kids?".   Wait, this kind of happened with the gymnastics coach..    We always blame others but never ourselves.

Locally a few year back there was a coach that was very good but would make kids cry by yelling (screaming) in the middle of the games. The team split up and a new coach emerged and moved to a new club.  The screamer coach tried to regroup but only lasted 1 more year as a coach.  Basically the parents in the area had heard about his antics and decided to not take their kids to that team.

Bottom line, parents can have some control to take some of these idiots away from soccer.


----------



## MWN

@SoccerFan4Life,

The problem with your thought process it that it ignores the reality that parents often don't find out about the abuse until after it has happened.  Generally speaking, once kids reach the U15 to U19 stage, parents are not sitting in their beach chairs watching practices.  They drop the kid off and come back after practice.  The U-Little parents sit there, but the vast majority of parents don't.  To the extent parents are watching practices, they are often so far away that they have no idea what a coach is saying to the players.  Most high level competitive players have fairly thick skins and don't tell their parents of statements or events because they have the attitude of "suck it up, brush it off."

To top it off, many coaches that engage is "bully" and over-the-line "abuse" do it infrequently.  Its often a pattern that increases over time.  Its not like these guys are screaming and calling their players cunts, pussies and fat asses, dickless wonders, etc., all the time AND definitely not in ear shot of the parents.

So, yes, a parent has responsibility to take action after they have learned of the conduct and can be blamed if they knowingly put their child under the supervision of a "bully coach" but unless that parent receives a report from their player and/or witnesses the abuse, they tend to be oblivious to the issue.


----------



## watfly

SoccerFan4Life said:


> You are right about blaming US Soccer fro giving him the only DA in Arizona but how about the parents that allowed him to abuse their kids.
> How about Shame on the parents to say " Well, it's DA so let;'s just have him bully our kids?".   Wait, this kind of happened with the gymnastics coach..    We always blame others but never ourselves.
> 
> Locally a few year back there was a coach that was very good but would make kids cry by yelling (screaming) in the middle of the games. The team split up and a new coach emerged and moved to a new club.  The screamer coach tried to regroup but only lasted 1 more year as a coach.  Basically the parents in the area had heard about his antics and decided to not take their kids to that team.
> 
> Bottom line, parents can have some control to take some of these idiots away from soccer.


Yep, and the article re: the AZ coach illustrates that point.  Parents were concerned about speaking out for fear of losing a college scholarship.  In most cases, parents are aware to some extent of the bullying (inappropriate relations on the other hand is typically not known).  It's not like a coach is evil at practice and a saint at games.  Typically it is the other way around when the game is on the line.  There are some parents that are afraid to "rock the boat" with the club for fear of missing out on some opportunity that's likely not even realistic but has been promised by the club's marketing materials or used car salesman coach. (I'm talking about legit bullying and intimidation of kids by adults, not a coach pushing his kids hard, or some well executed yelling).  Or there are parents believe that the "end justifies the means" if there kid gets a college scholarship or national team exposure. Plenty of blame to go around but we as parents do give Clubs/Coaches more power over our lives than they deserve.

On a tangent here, it seems like there are way too many parents that consider soccer a way to pay for college.  I would be stoked if my son got a scholarship for soccer, but that is just a bonus and is not a long-term plan to finance college...its certainly nothing I'm remotely counting on.  IMO college should be something you start planning for at the birth of the kid (like a 529 plan), and not something that you start hoping for in high school that a college will show up to pay your kid to play.


----------



## Real Deal

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> This behavior should not be tolerated.  Regardless of the sex of the coach or the athlete.  In any sport - ever.  I, like most of you, have seen the football coach losing his mind on a player (pop warner or collegiate), the arena soccer coach who acts like he is coaching in the world cup, and on and on.  WE have to demand better from the coaches.  WE have to be willing to step in when the lines are crossed.  Yes, life is tough and many a days as  a grown up you get your teeth kicked in and have to get up, dust yourself off and keep going, but that isn't an excuse for deplorable behavior.  WE need to demand better.  On the pitch, in the classroom, in the board room.  This isn't acceptable behavior, and WE need to be the ones to make it stop.  Not to mention the negative impact on performance.  Expect more/demand more.


Agreed.  Parents should speak up.  But the minute you say a word, or even ask a question, your child is in jeopardy of punishment-further abuse, benched, or kicked off the team and _you_ are labelled the jerk.  Your reputation follows you.  For the most part, Clubs side with coaches, not parents, even in the most extreme cases as we have read about lately.  For every parent who complains, there are two willing to make a donation. It's a twisted world.  Thankfully we have amazing coaches and so don't have this problem.


----------



## TangoCity

Real Deal said:


> Agreed.  Parents should speak up.  But the minute you say a word, or even ask a question, your child is in jeopardy of punishment-further abuse, benched, or kicked off the team and _you_ are labelled the jerk.  Your reputation follows you.  For the most part, Clubs side with coaches, not parents, even in the most extreme cases as we have read about lately.  For every parent who complains, there are two willing to make a donation. It's a twisted world.


Video tape it.  Then take it to club.  Then bump it up to next level if need be.


----------



## Real Deal

TangoCity said:


> Video tape it.  Then take it to club.  Then bump it up to next level if need be.


Currently we luckily have found great coaches for our kids  so do not have this problem ourselves.  But that is a good suggestion for those who haven’t.  But mostly you just  leave and seek out the great coaches. my point being, it’s difficult and mostly pointless  to speak up.


----------



## InTheValley

Before letting your child play under any coach, you have an obligation to perform sufficient due diligence to determine the coach is an “abuser” or “bully” under whatever standard those words mean to you.  If you don’t or can’t do that, at least stick around at enough practice until you are satisfied with the situation.  If you don’t, you can only blame yourself.

If you are the sort of parent who believes raising your voice ever or dropping an occasional f bomb is inexcusable and merits a lawsuit or punching the coach in the face, there is nothing stopping you from addressing your expectations with the coach at the outset.  If they’re a screamer or gravitate toward the more colorful spectrum and are not willing to accommodate you, I’m confident you will agree you are in the wrong place.  

Obviously, there are times a parent does their part, but inappropriate verbal conduct still happens. No one has perfect information and coaches are people too; sometimes they go off the deep end.  You cannot prevent your child from being exposed to every ill-advised comment in advance but, if you did your due diligence, odds are that it is an isolated incident and nothing to lose sleep over.  A few stupid, mean, or “bullying” (if that is the conclusory, factually lacking, but explosive terminology you prefer) comments will never cause anyone permanent neurological damage.   If you believe differently, that’s fine with me, but you can’t expect others to share your zero tolerance standard, your significant deviation from societal norms, and some solid research that a strict rainbow and butterfly approach is not the best way to benefit an elite athlete or even raise a child.  Also don’t expect people who know a coach not to defend him, especially if you trash them with conclusory words like “bullying” or “abuse” that don’t identify the specific behavior.  If you are going to bomb throw incendiary words at coaches, you owe it to everyone involved to explain the basis for that. If you aren’t confident enough that your facts justify your opinion, don’t state your opinion and then jump down the throat of those who ask you to support your serious allegations. 

But let’s say a pattern of inapppropriate behavior develops despite your best efforts.  The parent absolutely has an obligation to know it is happening and to stop it before it gets out of hand. Hopefully, everyone is asking more penetrating questions of their children than “how was practice” before moving on to the equally unhelpful question “how was school”?  Ask specific questions that require them to provide answers with specific details that they can't just blow off.  What did you work on today?  Man, it looked like your coach was in a bit of a mood last game, what’s the deal?  How is Bella doing? Coach seemed pretty frustrated with her. What did they talk about?  Your teammates looked pretty grim walking to the car after practice; what’s the deal?  Why was Bella crying?  And don’t always ask soccer questions right after soccer practice. Get them when they’re in a chatty mood. If you can’t get out of your child that her coach is verbally abusing her, it is time for self reflection.

If you are afraid to do anything about a dangerous situation because you are worried about harming your reputation or that your daughter will get blackballed, or you are videotaping a coach to prove to others that your daughter is in a dangerous place, man you have lost perspective.


----------



## INFAMEE

TangoCity said:


> Video tape it.  Then take it to club.  Then bump it up to next level if need be.


Lol@video tape.


----------



## outside!

InTheValley said:


> man you have lost perspective.


Not to make light of a serious issue, but some Man U fans might agree.


----------



## Nutmeg

InTheValley said:


> Before letting your child play under any coach, you have an obligation to perform sufficient due diligence to determine the coach is an “abuser” or “bully” under whatever standard those words mean to you.  If you don’t or can’t do that, at least stick around at enough practice until you are satisfied with the situation.  If you don’t, you can only blame yourself.
> 
> If you are the sort of parent who believes raising your voice ever or dropping an occasional f bomb is inexcusable and merits a lawsuit or punching the coach in the face, there is nothing stopping you from addressing your expectations with the coach at the outset.  If they’re a screamer or gravitate toward the more colorful spectrum and are not willing to accommodate you, I’m confident you will agree you are in the wrong place.
> 
> Obviously, there are times a parent does their part, but inappropriate verbal conduct still happens. No one has perfect information and coaches are people too; sometimes they go off the deep end.  You cannot prevent your child from being exposed to every ill-advised comment in advance but, if you did your due diligence, odds are that it is an isolated incident and nothing to lose sleep over.  A few stupid, mean, or “bullying” (if that is the conclusory, factually lacking, but explosive terminology you prefer) comments will never cause anyone permanent neurological damage.   If you believe differently, that’s fine with me, but you can’t expect others to share your zero tolerance standard, your significant deviation from societal norms, and some solid research that a strict rainbow and butterfly approach is not the best way to benefit an elite athlete or even raise a child.  Also don’t expect people who know a coach not to defend him, especially if you trash them with conclusory words like “bullying” or “abuse” that don’t identify the specific behavior.  If you are going to bomb throw incendiary words at coaches, you owe it to everyone involved to explain the basis for that. If you aren’t confident enough that your facts justify your opinion, don’t state your opinion and then jump down the throat of those who ask you to support your serious allegations.
> 
> But let’s say a pattern of inapppropriate behavior develops despite your best efforts.  The parent absolutely has an obligation to know it is happening and to stop it before it gets out of hand. Hopefully, everyone is asking more penetrating questions of their children than “how was practice” before moving on to the equally unhelpful question “how was school”?  Ask specific questions that require them to provide answers with specific details that they can't just blow off.  What did you work on today?  Man, it looked like your coach was in a bit of a mood last game, what’s the deal?  How is Bella doing? Coach seemed pretty frustrated with her. What did they talk about?  Your teammates looked pretty grim walking to the car after practice; what’s the deal?  Why was Bella crying?  And don’t always ask soccer questions right after soccer practice. Get them when they’re in a chatty mood. If you can’t get out of your child that her coach is verbally abusing her, it is time for self reflection.
> 
> If you are afraid to do anything about a dangerous situation because you are worried about harming your reputation or that your daughter will get blackballed, or you are videotaping a coach to prove to others that your daughter is in a dangerous place, man you have lost perspective.


Did your account get hacked? You ok? Cause your making sense today.


----------



## Bananacorner

Nutmeg said:


> Did your account get hacked? You ok? Cause your making sense today.


Just cut back on the sauce


----------



## El Clasico

InTheValley said:


> .  If you can’t get out of your child that her coach is verbally abusing her, it is time for self reflection.
> 
> Are you suggesting that we bully the information out of them? LOL
> 
> If you are afraid to do anything about a dangerous situation because you are worried about harming your reputation or that your daughter will get blackballed, or you are videotaping a coach to prove to others that your daughter is in a dangerous place, man you have lost perspective.


Great post Valley.  However, most in this sport HAVE lost perspective from my experience as mentioned in my previous post.  As Real Deal mentioned, these parents are afraid to speak up. Seems like eternity but 15 years ago, before they allowed any snowflake with a checkbook to sign up for club, things were different. Players were there to learn and play.  I will give you that the quality of coaching overall is better but the quality of the coach is certainly not. There was much more respect between coach and parent before because parents weren't afraid to let coach know what they thought. Once saw a parent punch a coach right in the face and every parent there recognized that the coach deserved it. Today, things aren't as simple and the checkbook players aren't helping the process except maybe to bring more money into the sport. I guess you could call the today's environment an unintended consequence of the efforts to bring in better quality coaches. They get to be a**holes.


----------



## InTheValley

Bananacorner said:


> Just cut back on the sauce


You stole my joke. I try to keep lunch to no more than two martinis.


----------



## MWN

InTheValley said:


> ... A few stupid, mean, or “bullying” (if that is the conclusory, factually lacking, but explosive terminology you prefer) comments will never cause anyone permanent neurological damage.   If you believe differently, that’s fine with me, but you can’t expect others to share your zero tolerance standard, your significant deviation from societal norms, and some solid research that a strict rainbow and butterfly approach is not the best way to benefit an elite athlete or even raise a child.  ....


I agree with everything you wrote, but the above underlined statement that seems to diminish and/or cast the definition of "bully" behavior into some sort of elusive touchy-feely definition.  To be clear, we are not discussing Rude or Mean coaches.  We are not discussing coaches that drop "f-bombs" on 15 year olds or say sarcastic stuff that is rude.  This discussion is about Coach Bullying (its the actual title).  The definition of "Bully" and what that standard is is not subject to reasonable dispute as its fairly well accepted.  Here it is so we can get back on track (see, http://changingthegameproject.com/is-your-kids-coach-a-bully/):

Bullying is *intentionally aggressive behavior, repeated over time, that involves an imbalance of power. *Bullying entails three key components:

An intent to harm,
A power imbalance;
Repeated acts or threats of aggressive behavior.
This behavior can be physical (which is usually caught and dealt with), verbal, even technological. It happens time and again even when the athlete demonstrates hurt and asks for it to stop.​
So, no a "few stupid, mean" comments is never bullying.  It would incorrect to ascribe sarcastic, mean or stupid comments as bullying.


----------



## InTheValley

MWN said:


> I agree with everything you wrote, but the above underlined statement that seems to diminish and/or cast the definition of "bully" behavior into some sort of elusive touchy-feely definition.  To be clear, we are not discussing Rude or Mean coaches.  We are not discussing coaches that drop "f-bombs" on 15 year olds or say sarcastic stuff that is rude.  This discussion is about Coach Bullying (its the actual title).  The definition of "Bully" and what that standard is is not subject to reasonable dispute as its fairly well accepted.  Here it is so we can get back on track (see, http://changingthegameproject.com/is-your-kids-coach-a-bully/):
> 
> Bullying is *intentionally aggressive behavior, repeated over time, that involves an imbalance of power. *Bullying entails three key components:
> 
> An intent to harm,
> A power imbalance;
> Repeated acts or threats of aggressive behavior.
> This behavior can be physical (which is usually caught and dealt with), verbal, even technological. It happens time and again even when the athlete demonstrates hurt and asks for it to stop.​
> So, no a "few stupid, mean" comments is never bullying.  It would incorrect to ascribe sarcastic, mean or stupid comments as bullying.


I hear what you are saying, because I think we probably draw the line in similar locations, but here’s the problem. I doubt most people who use the “bully” term around here or elsewhere are utilizing this or any standard other than the “I know it when I see it” standard.  And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The other problem is the paper definition is unhelpful on a practical level.  For example, how will you ever know the first element (intent to harm) is met absent physical contact or an explicit threat of violence?  You can’t, so you need to infer it with a circular argument that element 1 exists because 2 and 3 exist. Which likely requires a lot of subjectivity and a fair amount of speculation.

We can skip #2 because there will always be a power imbalance between adult and child.

But the 3rd element really exposes the problem. Nowhere does it say that “repeated” requires a certain minimum number of statements or acts.  Exactly how many acts are necessary to meet the standard?  Does the answer to that question depend on type of acts and how often they occur?   How do you know what I think is just “stupid” or “mean” isn’t something that 99% of people would agree is so horrific that it constitutes bullying?  At what point or rate do stupid or mean comments become bullying?  Can silence ever be part of a pattern of bullying?  Do any of these answers change if a child is unusually sensitive?  What if they’re a hard core alpha WNT prospect whose only purpose in life is to eat forwards for lunch?  Can you treat the two of them exactly the same and have it constitute bullying of one but not the other?  Do the same standards apply to soccer players as MMA fighters (which I find detestable by the way)?  

Whether behavior constitutes bullying under a paper definition misses the point, I think. Rather, we should focus on what is in the best interests of our own kids.  I think the right approach is to pay enough attention so you don’t ever find yourself pondering whether your daughter’s coach met the definition.  And also mock those who throw around inflammatory accusations under cover of anonymity without factual support or otherwise misrepresent hypotheticals as fact.  Because they aren’t using any legitimate definition of “bullying”, and also because I’ve been told that I’m good at getting under people’s skin, and we should all do what we’re good at.


----------



## Real Deal

InTheValley said:


> I hear what you are saying, because I think we probably draw the line in similar locations, but here’s the problem. I doubt most people who use the “bully” term around here or elsewhere are utilizing this or any standard other than the “I know it when I see it” standard.  And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> The other problem is the paper definition is unhelpful on a practical level.  For example, how will you ever know the first element (intent to harm) is met absent physical contact or an explicit threat of violence?  You can’t, so you need to infer it with a circular argument that element 1 exists because 2 and 3 exist. Which likely requires a lot of subjectivity and a fair amount of speculation.
> 
> But the 3rd element really exposes the problem. Nowhere does it say that “repeated” requires a certain minimum number of statements or acts.  Exactly how many acts are necessary to meet the standard?  Does the answer to that question depend on type of acts and how often they occur?   How do you know what I think is just “stupid” or “mean” isn’t something that 99% of people would agree is so horrific that it constitutes bullying?  At what point or rate do stupid or mean comments become bullying?  Can silence ever be part of a pattern of bullying?  Do any of these answers change if a child is unusually sensitive?  What if they’re a hard core alpha WNT prospect whose only purpose in life is to eat forwards for lunch?  Can you treat the two of them exactly the same and have it constitute bullying of one but not the other?  Do the same standards apply to soccer players as MMA fighters (which I find detestable by the way)?


And this ^ is why we have lawyers, and lawsuits, and juries, and judges. God Bless America! Thanks to InTheValley for making the point.


----------



## MWN

InTheValley said:


> I hear what you are saying, because I think we probably draw the line in similar locations, but here’s the problem. I doubt most people who use the “bully” term around here or elsewhere are utilizing this or any standard other than the “I know it when I see it” standard.  And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> The other problem is the paper definition is unhelpful on a practical level.  For example, how will you ever know the first element (intent to harm) is met absent physical contact or an explicit threat of violence?  You can’t, so you need to infer it with a circular argument that element 1 exists because 2 and 3 exist. Which likely requires a lot of subjectivity and a fair amount of speculation.
> 
> We can skip #2 because there will always be a power imbalance between adult and child.
> 
> But the 3rd element really exposes the problem. Nowhere does it say that “repeated” requires a certain minimum number of statements or acts.  Exactly how many acts are necessary to meet the standard?  Does the answer to that question depend on type of acts and how often they occur?   How do you know what I think is just “stupid” or “mean” isn’t something that 99% of people would agree is so horrific that it constitutes bullying?  At what point or rate do stupid or mean comments become bullying?  Can silence ever be part of a pattern of bullying?  Do any of these answers change if a child is unusually sensitive?  What if they’re a hard core alpha WNT prospect whose only purpose in life is to eat forwards for lunch?  Can you treat the two of them exactly the same and have it constitute bullying of one but not the other?  Do the same standards apply to soccer players as MMA fighters (which I find detestable by the way)?
> 
> Whether behavior constitutes bullying under a paper definition misses the point, I think. Rather, we should focus on what is in the best interests of our own kids.  I think the right approach is to pay enough attention so you don’t ever find yourself pondering whether your daughter’s coach met the definition.  And also mock those who throw around inflammatory accusations under cover of anonymity without factual support or otherwise misrepresent hypotheticals as fact.  Because they aren’t using any legitimate definition of “bullying”, and also because I’ve been told that I’m good at getting under people’s skin, and we should all do what we’re good at.


First, thank you for an intelligent response.  I appreciate it.  There is no dispute that parents play an important role in placing their child with a coach that they believe will support the minor athlete's development, instead of harming it.  That said, Coaches/DOCs/Boards and yes, Parents and Athletes may be confronted with a small number of individuals that engage in conduct that crosses the line.  The original post asked a series of questions devoid of any hypothical or facts, just a claim that a lawsuit was filed for bullying.  I read your response and interpret it as a essentially, we can't really figure it out so let's just focus on what a parent can do. 

I agree, element 2 requires no analysis in the typical youth athlete / coach situation.   Your response, a series of more questions is precisely what the original post raised, how is a coach/DOC/board to know what constitutes "bullying" in the context of a coaching relationship.  Coming up with bright-line guidance is always the goal, but inevitably all we can do is come up with a rule that has some broad elements and try our darnedest to apply the facts to the rule on a case-by-case basis.  That said, its not really that hard and what lawyers and judges do everyday.  So let's take a look at it:

1.  Intent to Harm. - You ask, how can we look into the mind of the coach and know what their intent is?  We use circumstantial evidence, just like the FIFA "Handling" Law (deliberate handling of the ball requires the referee to look into the mind of the player using circumstantial evidence).  In the case of a coach accused of "bullying" behavior towards an athlete, absent a confession, the evidence is always circumstantial.  Based on the evidence and witness statements (including the athlete, coach and witnesses), did the coach's actions toward the alleged bullied player demonstrate an "intent to harm."  We look at all relevant facts (age, sex, competitive nature of team (Rec v. DA?), alleged statements, coaching style, etc.).  Because element 3 (repetitiveness) also requires us to look at a number of statements and not just one.  We typically use the "reasonable person" standard to ascertain whether those actions would harm a "reasonable person" and whether a "reasonable person" engaging in those actions would reasonable believe it would harm the recipient.  The reasonable person standard moves based on age, sex and competitive level of play.

2. Repetitiveness.  An isolated harmful comment isn't enough.  A pattern of multiple comments may be.  Even two could be enough depending on the severity of the action.  It could happen in a single day.  For example, a DA player, age 17 announces to his team and coach that he is gay.  Over the course of practice that day, the coach's demeanor to that player changes.  The coach makes two comments to the player.  The first: "Ok, boys, we are going to play some small-sided game, except for the faggot, you run until I tell you to stop."  The second: "That was a great header, but I guess since you are a fairy you probably have lots of practice giving head."   Most "reasonable" folks would view the coach as engaging in "bully" behavior with just two instances given the use of slurs that have no relevance to instruction or training and are clearly designed to insult/harm the player. 

The broader point in this discussion is that we (coaches, referees, DOCs, leagues, boards) need to have an understanding what constitutes bullying so we can (1) counsel coaches to make adjustments to their styles in order to avoid crossing the line; and (2) identify willful offenders and drum them out of our programs.  Moreover, we need parents to have a clearer understanding of behaviors that are just rude and/or negative vs. actual bullying to avoid improper allegations of bullying.  Having a definition with elements that we can apply facts too is essential is helping all adhere to their duties/responsibilities.  So, fundamentally, I disagree with your statement "_Whether behavior constitutes bullying under a paper definition misses the point, I think_."


----------



## watfly

MWN said:


> First, thank you for an intelligent response.  I appreciate it.  There is no dispute that parents play an important role in placing their child with a coach that they believe will support the minor athlete's development, instead of harming it.  That said, Coaches/DOCs/Boards and yes, Parents and Athletes may be confronted with a small number of individuals that engage in conduct that crosses the line.  The original post asked a series of questions devoid of any hypothical or facts, just a claim that a lawsuit was filed for bullying.  I read your response and interpret it as a essentially, we can't really figure it out so let's just focus on what a parent can do.
> 
> I agree, element 2 requires no analysis in the typical youth athlete / coach situation.   Your response, a series of more questions is precisely what the original post raised, how is a coach/DOC/board to know what constitutes "bullying" in the context of a coaching relationship.  Coming up with bright-line guidance is always the goal, but inevitably all we can do is come up with a rule that has some broad elements and try our darnedest to apply the facts to the rule on a case-by-case basis.  That said, its not really that hard and what lawyers and judges do everyday.  So let's take a look at it:
> 
> 1.  Intent to Harm. - You ask, how can we look into the mind of the coach and know what their intent is?  We use circumstantial evidence, just like the FIFA "Handling" Law (deliberate handling of the ball requires the referee to look into the mind of the player using circumstantial evidence).  In the case of a coach accused of "bullying" behavior towards an athlete, absent a confession, the evidence is always circumstantial.  Based on the evidence and witness statements (including the athlete, coach and witnesses), did the coach's actions toward the alleged bullied player demonstrate an "intent to harm."  We look at all relevant facts (age, sex, competitive nature of team (Rec v. DA?), alleged statements, coaching style, etc.).  Because element 3 (repetitiveness) also requires us to look at a number of statements and not just one.  We typically use the "reasonable person" standard to ascertain whether those actions would harm a "reasonable person" and whether a "reasonable person" engaging in those actions would reasonable believe it would harm the recipient.  The reasonable person standard moves based on age, sex and competitive level of play.
> 
> 2. Repetitiveness.  An isolated harmful comment isn't enough.  A pattern of multiple comments may be.  Even two could be enough depending on the severity of the action.  It could happen in a single day.  For example, a DA player, age 17 announces to his team and coach that he is gay.  Over the course of practice that day, the coach's demeanor to that player changes.  The coach makes two comments to the player.  The first: "Ok, boys, we are going to play some small-sided game, except for the faggot, you run until I tell you to stop."  The second: "That was a great header, but I guess since you are a fairy you probably have lots of practice giving head."   Most "reasonable" folks would view the coach as engaging in "bully" behavior with just two instances given the use of slurs that have no relevance to instruction or training and are clearly designed to insult/harm the player.
> 
> The broader point in this discussion is that we (coaches, referees, DOCs, leagues, boards) need to have an understanding what constitutes bullying so we can (1) counsel coaches to make adjustments to their styles in order to avoid crossing the line; and (2) identify willful offenders and drum them out of our programs.  Moreover, we need parents to have a clearer understanding of behaviors that are just rude and/or negative vs. actual bullying to avoid improper allegations of bullying.  Having a definition with elements that we can apply facts too is essential is helping all adhere to their duties/responsibilities.  So, fundamentally, I disagree with your statement "_Whether behavior constitutes bullying under a paper definition misses the point, I think_."


I think the standards are relevant for discussion but they are not by any measure an authoritative standard.  While, I'm a big fan of Changing the Game Project and while I think their overall point is valid they have taken the 3 standards out of context.  The underlying article they site is specifically talking about child to child bullying.  Adult to child is a different situation, although there may be some similarities.  As InTheValley states you already have a power imbalance to begin with which really makes this an abuse/exploitation of power situation as opposed to what we would consider traditional  peer to peer bullying.  The fundamental difference between the two are the ramifications of speaking out.  If you speak out against a child bully the worst case scenario is the bullying gets worse, but otherwise the bully has no other power over you.  In the case of a coach, if you speak out the potential ramifications are much greater because of the position of power they hold.  You could lose standing with the club, you could be cut from the team, you could lose a scholarship, etc...  That can be a huge threat, whether real or perceived, and why it leads to silence in many cases.  Unfortunately some coaches and clubs exploit that fact.

As far as intent goes I don't know how relevant it is in a coach and player context.  I may be naive but I've seen in some cases where I don't think the coach realizes his behavior may be harming kids.  In the back of their mind they may think its wrong but they justify it based upon the results, they actually think they're helping kids.  Like "tough love" that has crossed the line.  In reality, its not so much as intent as it's just a coach being lazy and uncreative.  It's easy to motivate kids in the short term with fear, it takes much more effort and skill to motivate with positive reinforcement over the long term.

Whatever you want to call it, bullying or abuse by a coach, I'll use the same definition that a Supreme Court judge used for pornography, "I know it when I see it".


----------



## InTheValley

watfly said:


> I think the standards are relevant for discussion but they are not by any measure an authoritative standard.  While, I'm a big fan of Changing the Game Project and while I think their overall point is valid they have taken the 3 standards out of context.  The underlying article they site is specifically talking about child to child bullying.  Adult to child is a different situation, although there may be some similarities.  As InTheValley states you already have a power imbalance to begin with which really makes this an abuse/exploitation of power situation as opposed to what we would consider traditional  peer to peer bullying.  The fundamental difference between the two are the ramifications of speaking out.  If you speak out against a child bully the worst case scenario is the bullying gets worse, but otherwise the bully has no other power over you.  In the case of a coach, if you speak out the potential ramifications are much greater because of the position of power they hold.  You could lose standing with the club, you could be cut from the team, you could lose a scholarship, etc...  That can be a huge threat, whether real or perceived, and why it leads to silence in many cases.  Unfortunately some coaches and clubs exploit that fact.
> 
> As far as intent goes I don't know how relevant it is in a coach and player context.  I may be naive but I've seen in some cases where I don't think the coach realizes his behavior may be harming kids.  In the back of their mind they may think its wrong but they justify it based upon the results, they actually think they're helping kids.  Like "tough love" that has crossed the line.  In reality, its not so much as intent as it's just a coach being lazy and uncreative.  It's easy to motivate kids in the short term with fear, it takes much more effort and skill to motivate with positive reinforcement over the long term.
> 
> Whatever you want to call it, bullying or abuse by a coach, I'll use the same definition that a Supreme Court judge used for pornography, "I know it when I see it".


This is good stuff.  

I would add that the fear of retaliation is almost always a self fulfilling prophecy. Ultimately, if your daughter is retaliated against, it will not be because you complained but because of how you complained.


----------



## push_up

.....and "how"  you complain is interpreted (by the perp) through the lens of this power imbalance and is justification for #1 and #3 by the person or people in power.  It is why we have anti-retaliation policies.


----------



## Josep

How about parent bullying.  I’ve seen a ton of thuggery over the years by this insane parents


----------



## Sheriff Joe

push_up said:


> Does a male DA coach that grabs an 18 year old by the shoulders during a game and shakes her like a baby while yelling in her face from two inches count as bullying or assault or both?  This is the caliber of coaching we get in Arizona.


Nice


----------



## Soccer43

Yes, parents can do a lot of things but it is the clubs and/or coaches that hold the power on many things + recommendations (ODP, ID2, National team, etc) college recruiting referrals,  play time, etc.  There is retaliation against players when parents try to take control of creating a better situation for their player - it isn't as simple as you have stated


----------



## jose

InTheValley said:


> Before letting your child play under any coach, you have an obligation to perform sufficient due diligence to determine the coach is an “abuser” or “bully” under whatever standard those words mean to you.  If you don’t or can’t do that, at least stick around at enough practice until you are satisfied with the situation.  If you don’t, you can only blame yourself.
> 
> If you are the sort of parent who believes raising your voice ever or dropping an occasional f bomb is inexcusable and merits a lawsuit or punching the coach in the face, there is nothing stopping you from addressing your expectations with the coach at the outset.  If they’re a screamer or gravitate toward the more colorful spectrum and are not willing to accommodate you, I’m confident you will agree you are in the wrong place.
> 
> Obviously, there are times a parent does their part, but inappropriate verbal conduct still happens. No one has perfect information and coaches are people too; sometimes they go off the deep end.  You cannot prevent your child from being exposed to every ill-advised comment in advance but, if you did your due diligence, odds are that it is an isolated incident and nothing to lose sleep over.  A few stupid, mean, or “bullying” (if that is the conclusory, factually lacking, but explosive terminology you prefer) comments will never cause anyone permanent neurological damage.   If you believe differently, that’s fine with me, but you can’t expect others to share your zero tolerance standard, your significant deviation from societal norms, and some solid research that a strict rainbow and butterfly approach is not the best way to benefit an elite athlete or even raise a child.  Also don’t expect people who know a coach not to defend him, especially if you trash them with conclusory words like “bullying” or “abuse” that don’t identify the specific behavior.  If you are going to bomb throw incendiary words at coaches, you owe it to everyone involved to explain the basis for that. If you aren’t confident enough that your facts justify your opinion, don’t state your opinion and then jump down the throat of those who ask you to support your serious allegations.
> 
> But let’s say a pattern of inapppropriate behavior develops despite your best efforts.  The parent absolutely has an obligation to know it is happening and to stop it before it gets out of hand. Hopefully, everyone is asking more penetrating questions of their children than “how was practice” before moving on to the equally unhelpful question “how was school”?  Ask specific questions that require them to provide answers with specific details that they can't just blow off.  What did you work on today?  Man, it looked like your coach was in a bit of a mood last game, what’s the deal?  How is Bella doing? Coach seemed pretty frustrated with her. What did they talk about?  Your teammates looked pretty grim walking to the car after practice; what’s the deal?  Why was Bella crying?  And don’t always ask soccer questions right after soccer practice. Get them when they’re in a chatty mood. If you can’t get out of your child that her coach is verbally abusing her, it is time for self reflection.
> 
> If you are afraid to do anything about a dangerous situation because you are worried about harming your reputation or that your daughter will get blackballed, or you are videotaping a coach to prove to others that your daughter is in a dangerous place, man you have lost perspective.



Solid piece there!


----------



## push_up

toucan said:


> The person in "power" is not the coach, nor the club.  It is always the parents.  Parents can pull their player off the team.  There are many other teams they can move to.  They can refuse to pay.  They can register complaints.  They can spread the word.  To the extent any coach or club has "power," it is ceded by parents.


Insert employee instead of player to understand how ignorant your post is.  Smh.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life

If your child is an awesome soccer player he/she will get discovered.   Don't just blame the coach.  Look at the por dad that committed suicidie when her daughter was molested by that gymnastics coach.  Abuse by a coach should not be tolerated regardless of your goal  for your child.    

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gymnastics-usa-nassar/victim-of-ex-usa-gymnastics-doctor-says-abuse-led-to-dads-suicide-idUSKBN1F52MS


----------



## MWN

toucan said:


> Push_up:
> 
> You need to work on your analogies.  Employers have power over employees because employers pay them to work.  But last I checked, *coaches don't pay parents*.  Parents have the ultimate power because they can take their business elsewhere.
> 
> I recognize the points other posters have made about a coach having power over making recommendations, referrals and playing time decisions.  If you take your player away from a coach, then it is true that he will have some residual power which might be abused.  Still, the ultimate power resides with the parent.  And its better to move your kid and then present your case to others, than it is to continue being a victim of an abusive coach.


In the context of the original discussion: When and what is considered "coach bullying" and how do we define "coach bullying," the issue of an imbalance of power is between the "coach" and the "player."  If we were discussing "parents bullying coaches" then your response would be relevant.  If a parent knows that the coach is bullying his/her child, then you would be correct, the parent failed to exercise their power to remove their child from the environment.  However, in virtually all cases of coaches bulling players, the parent is oblivious to the actions and only learns after the long after the fact.


----------



## push_up

One of the things the del sol DA coach had done was to call or threaten to call the college coach in order to vacate the scholarship.  In some cases, this was in excess of $100,000+.  In these cases, the parents knew what was going on and were still powerless.  But hey, let's highjack the thread to talk about parent bullying.


----------



## InTheValley

push_up said:


> Insert employee instead of player to understand how ignorant your post is.  Smh.


The lengths to which many parents will go to avoid responsibility for their child’s situation is mindboggling.

There are only a handful of “queen maker” coaches who hold a sufficient power imbalance so that the coach or club may not care enough about your money, and your superstar daughter’s ability, to at least consider what you are saying. They are universally well-established and the market has already decided that the value of their coaching style outweighs your criticism and micromanaging, even if you call it “bullying” or “verbally abusive.”  If you find yourself confronting Blues Baker trying to change his coaching style, for example, you really need to ask yourself why you are trying to change him when so many people have paid Blues so much money for so long a period for his services just the way he is. And also why other parents aren’t lining up behind you.  And shame on you for being surprised about how these coaches operate.

Regardless of the coach (and even if a simple google search was too much work for you before you unleashed that Del sol fella on your daughter), it is easy to avoid being retaliated against. Don’t be a jerk. Every parent understands that a coach should treat them and their players with dignity and respect but, too often, they fail to understand that it is a two way street. Be the better person, check your ego, and use a little diplomacy as you navigate the process of trying to resolve a dispute even if the coach does not share your pleasant attitude.  When you don’t get what you want, which you probably won’t because it is unreasonable to expect to turn a bully/abuser into Florence Nightengale, be prepared to move on without burning bridges.  

If you are so wound up that you think a coach might ruin your daughter’s soccer career, you are probably overstating how much anyone cares about you. But if that is your concern, how hard is it to tell the coach “thanks for everything you’ve done to help our daughter.  We really appreciate everything you’ve done.  Unfortunately, little Bella is super stressed with everything going on between school and soccer. To do what’s best for her, we’ve decided to take a more low key approach. Again, we think you’ve been great.”  The problem is that you won’t bite the bullet because your ego demands that you win something that is not winnable, even if it means screwing over your own daughter’s future just so you can prove how big a tough guy you are. So you yell at the coach instead of engaging in non-confrontational discussion.  You passive-aggressively try to sabotage them behind their back through your constant negativity among other parents.  You go over their head to the board of directors.  You send email manifestos. Trash them online. Make unreasonable demands.  How do you think a jerk is going to act when you’re also a jerk?

In short, those who emphasize the importance of the parent’s behavior in this process are right on, because they’ve seen enough crazy parents in action.  Underlying all of this, they also realize that the parent who cries “retaliation” when things don’t go their way is usually the insufferable complainer who lacks the objectivity necessary to understand that their kid isn’t on the bench “in retaliation” for the benign conversation they had earlier with the coach.  Rather, it’s either because the conversation was not remotely benign or it is because their daughter just doesn’t give enough effort in practice and isn’t good enough to start.


----------



## push_up

What does this have to do with a male coach shaking an 18 year old player like a baby and screaming in her face during a DA game?  Is this the parents fault as well?


----------



## Soccer43

InTheValley said:


> The lengths to which many parents will go to avoid responsibility for their child’s situation is mindboggling.
> 
> There are only a handful of “queen maker” coaches who hold a sufficient power imbalance so that the coach or club may not care enough about your money, and your superstar daughter’s ability, to at least consider what you are saying. They are universally well-established and the market has already decided that the value of their coaching style outweighs your criticism and micromanaging, even if you call it “bullying” or “verbally abusive.”  If you find yourself confronting Blues Baker trying to change his coaching style, for example, you really need to ask yourself why you are trying to change him when so many people have paid Blues so much money for so long a period for his services just the way he is. And also why other parents aren’t lining up behind you.  And shame on you for being surprised about how these coaches operate.
> 
> Regardless of the coach (and even if a simple google search was too much work for you before you unleashed that Del sol fella on your daughter), it is easy to avoid being retaliated against. Don’t be a jerk. Every parent understands that a coach should treat them and their players with dignity and respect but, too often, they fail to understand that it is a two way street. Be the better person, check your ego, and use a little diplomacy as you navigate the process of trying to resolve a dispute even if the coach does not share your pleasant attitude.  When you don’t get what you want, which you probably won’t because it is unreasonable to expect to turn a bully/abuser into Florence Nightengale, be prepared to move on without burning bridges.
> 
> If you are so wound up that you think a coach might ruin your daughter’s soccer career, you are probably overstating how much anyone cares about you. But if that is your concern, how hard is it to tell the coach “thanks for everything you’ve done to help our daughter.  We really appreciate everything you’ve done.  Unfortunately, little Bella is super stressed with everything going on between school and soccer. To do what’s best for her, we’ve decided to take a more low key approach. Again, we think you’ve been great.”  The problem is that you won’t bite the bullet because your ego demands that you win something that is not winnable, even if it means screwing over your own daughter’s future just so you can prove how big a tough guy you are. So you yell at the coach instead of engaging in non-confrontational discussion.  You passive-aggressively try to sabotage them behind their back through your constant negativity among other parents.  You go over their head to the board of directors.  You send email manifestos. Trash them online. Make unreasonable demands.  How do you think a jerk is going to act when you’re also a jerk?
> 
> In short, those who emphasize the importance of the parent’s behavior in this process are right on, because they’ve seen enough crazy parents in action.  Underlying all of this, they also realize that the parent who cries “retaliation” when things don’t go their way is usually the insufferable complainer who lacks the objectivity necessary to understand that their kid isn’t on the bench “in retaliation” for the benign conversation they had earlier with the coach.  Rather, it’s either because the conversation was not remotely benign or it is because their daughter just doesn’t give enough effort in practice and isn’t good enough to start.


You are naive to think that there is never indictive retaliation against a good player and decent parents and that it is all because of parent's delusions and bad behaviors.  - you are sounding a bit like an angry bitter coach with an agenda


----------



## espola

Soccer43 said:


> You are naive to think that there is never indictive retaliation against a good player and decent parents and that it is all because of parent's delusions and bad behaviors.  - you are sounding a bit like an angry bitter coach with an agenda


Agreed.  I have seen a coach not only go after a player that left his team, but also try to damage the team and club he fled to.


----------



## InTheValley

espola said:


> Agreed.  I have seen a coach not only go after a player that left his team, but also try to damage the team and club he fled to.


When you are ready for a referral to a psychologist for your paranoia, or to help address your anti-social behavior and lack of communication skills, feel free to private message me.


----------



## espola

InTheValley said:


> When you are ready for a referral to a psychologist for your paranoia, or to help address your anti-social behavior and lack of communication skills, feel free to private message me.


Coocoo.


----------



## Nutmeg

InTheValley said:


> The lengths to which many parents will go to avoid responsibility for their child’s situation is mindboggling.
> 
> There are only a handful of “queen maker” coaches who hold a sufficient power imbalance so that the coach or club may not care enough about your money, and your superstar daughter’s ability, to at least consider what you are saying. They are universally well-established and the market has already decided that the value of their coaching style outweighs your criticism and micromanaging, even if you call it “bullying” or “verbally abusive.”  If you find yourself confronting Blues Baker trying to change his coaching style, for example, you really need to ask yourself why you are trying to change him when so many people have paid Blues so much money for so long a period for his services just the way he is. And also why other parents aren’t lining up behind you.  And shame on you for being surprised about how these coaches operate.
> 
> Regardless of the coach (and even if a simple google search was too much work for you before you unleashed that Del sol fella on your daughter), it is easy to avoid being retaliated against. Don’t be a jerk. Every parent understands that a coach should treat them and their players with dignity and respect but, too often, they fail to understand that it is a two way street. Be the better person, check your ego, and use a little diplomacy as you navigate the process of trying to resolve a dispute even if the coach does not share your pleasant attitude.  When you don’t get what you want, which you probably won’t because it is unreasonable to expect to turn a bully/abuser into Florence Nightengale, be prepared to move on without burning bridges.
> 
> If you are so wound up that you think a coach might ruin your daughter’s soccer career, you are probably overstating how much anyone cares about you. But if that is your concern, how hard is it to tell the coach “thanks for everything you’ve done to help our daughter.  We really appreciate everything you’ve done.  Unfortunately, little Bella is super stressed with everything going on between school and soccer. To do what’s best for her, we’ve decided to take a more low key approach. Again, we think you’ve been great.”  The problem is that you won’t bite the bullet because your ego demands that you win something that is not winnable, even if it means screwing over your own daughter’s future just so you can prove how big a tough guy you are. So you yell at the coach instead of engaging in non-confrontational discussion.  You passive-aggressively try to sabotage them behind their back through your constant negativity among other parents.  You go over their head to the board of directors.  You send email manifestos. Trash them online. Make unreasonable demands.  How do you think a jerk is going to act when you’re also a jerk?
> 
> In short, those who emphasize the importance of the parent’s behavior in this process are right on, because they’ve seen enough crazy parents in action.  Underlying all of this, they also realize that the parent who cries “retaliation” when things don’t go their way is usually the insufferable complainer who lacks the objectivity necessary to understand that their kid isn’t on the bench “in retaliation” for the benign conversation they had earlier with the coach.  Rather, it’s either because the conversation was not remotely benign or it is because their daughter just doesn’t give enough effort in practice and isn’t good enough to start.


What the F is your point. Why do all your posts sound like listening to a DOC at a mind numbing club meeting. Either you actually believe this or you just like saying dumb ass shi. to get attention. But considering you actually typed literally the longest dumbest collection of words strung together since your last post, I’m guessing it’s both. I’d be shocked if you actually had a kid currently playing somewhere. There are some real winners on here but you by far take the taco.


----------



## InTheValley

Nutmeg said:


> What the F is your point. Why do all your posts sound like listening to a DOC at a mind numbing club meeting. Either you actually believe this or you just like saying dumb ass shi. to get attention. But considering you actually typed literally the longest dumbest collection of words strung together since your last post, I’m guessing it’s both. I’d be shocked if you actually had a kid currently playing somewhere. There are some real winners on here but you by far take the taco.


My point is that you should take responsibilty for your problems.  I am not surprised that you and others cannot communicate without getting incredibly defensive and throwing around profanity.  You prove my point that, for most soccer parents, it is the parent who is the problem.


----------



## Soccer43

And you are proving everyone's point that you are a DOC or coach and signed up to this forum just to bash parents and distract from the original topic of this thread.


----------



## Fact

When my son wanted to leave a club for a team more in line with his skills and that actually developed players, we tried to be diplomatic saying that my work schedule conflicted with the new season's practice schedule and that we would love to come back if things changed.  We had a good relationship up until that point.  But the DOC still tried to sabotage our move by calling the new club. Soccer in SoCal is a small community and even smaller in Arizona.  You cannot underestimate the power of clubs, especially due to their relationships with other clubs and coaches.


----------



## InTheValley

Soccer43 said:


> And you are proving everyone's point that you are a DOC or coach and signed up to this forum just to bash parents and distract from the original topic of this thread.


Remind me again about the original topic of this thread?  That’s right, it was about a parent making up a fake lawsuit alleging fake bullying by a fake coach, and then failing to own up to it.  My comments about too many parents failing to take responsibility, but instead just blaming the coach and club, are directly on point.


----------



## MWN

Let me see if I can get this back on track.

*In Summary:*
@Bananacorner asked what exactly is "coach bullying" and how do "we" soccer parents, players, coaches know what constitutes behavior that crosses the line from a tough, negative or sarcastic coaching style to "bullying."  We then had a divergent quasi-off topic discussion apparently fueled by some morbid curiosity regarding requests for factual details because the original post set up the questions with a mistaken belief that a lawsuit had been filed. 

@MWN provided links to some definitions of what constitutes bullying and links to various articles specifically addressing the coach/athlete dynamic in the context of "coach bullying."

@InTheValley argues that parents misuse the term "bullying" and make the claim too easily because those parents don't want to take responsibility for their own actions.  @toucan agrees and adds that parents have the power, not the coach.

@Nutmeg, @Soccer43 and others find @InTheValley's position unsatisfactory because it shifts the discussion from coaches to parents and avoids the main topic.

*Moving Forward:*

My first suggestion, let's try to avoid the ad hominem attacks (I know I have). 

@InTheValley and @toucan,
I fundamentally agree that parents play an important role and have some power after the fact.  They also have a duty to conduct a reasonable investigation/inquiry into the coaching style and tendencies to ensure their player is in the right situation.  I also wholeheartedly agree that many parents are too far sensitive and misuse the term "bullying" to describe coach behavior that is simply tough or negative, but not intended to cause harm to those players.

Where I find your position unsatisfactory is placing too much focus on parents.  Its almost akin to blaming the rape victim because she wore a short skirt in a bad part of town and went to the wrong bar.  The argument that parents are to blame for putting their kids on teams staffed by bad coaches is relevant only to how might parents lower the odds of finding their kid on a team with a coach that victimizes certain players.  But that isn't the question or the topic.  However, if your response is that coaches that victimize and abuse kids are never responsible for their actions, rather its the parents because they should have known better, then OK, I disagree.

*Can we agree on a definition of "bullying"?*
I previously cited an article from changing the game "Is your kid's coach a bully?" that had three elements: 

_An intent to harm,_
_A power imbalance_
_Repeated acts or threats of aggressive behavior._
I've also mentioned that the US Olympic Committee has adopted the SafeSport program and requires all NGBs (National Governing Bodies) for the Olympic sports, such as USSF, adopt and implement the SafeSport program.  The SafeSport templates define bullying as follows:

_Bullying (Safesport, 2015 definition)_
_
Bullying is the use of coercion to obtain control over another person or to be habitually cruel to another person. Bullying involves an intentional, persistent or repeated pattern of committing or willfully tolerating physical and non-physical behaviors that are intended to cause fear, humiliation, or physical harm in an attempt to socially exclude, diminish, or isolate another person. Bullying can occur through written, verbal or electronically transmitted expression or by means of a physical act or gesture. 

Bullying behavior is prohibited in any manner in connection with any Team USA sanctioned activities or events. Examples of bullying prohibited by this Policy include,without limitation physical behaviors, including punching, kicking or choking; and verbal and emotional behaviors, including, the use of electronic communications (i.e., “cyber bullying”), to harass, frighten, degrade, intimidate or humiliate. Bullying does not include group or team behaviors that are reasonably designed to establish normative team behaviors or promote team cohesion.
_​The SafeSport definition of bullying is more detailed and directly avoids the "power imbalance" element because the definition is broader and is intended to apply to athlete on athlete situations.  It has basically 4 elements (see underlined text).

Can we all agree that the SafeSport definition of bullying is good and coaches that engage in behaviors should be drummed out of the club by the DOC after a reasonable investigation that validates the claims?   If not, what is wrong with the SafeSport definition?


----------



## MWN

InTheValley said:


> Remind me again about the original topic of this thread?  That’s right, it was about a parent making up a fake lawsuit alleging fake bullying by a fake coach, and then failing to own up to it.  My comments about too many parents failing to take responsibility, but instead just blaming the coach and club, are directly on point.


No that is incorrect.  It was about a parent believing (incorrectly) a lawsuit was filed as the set up to asking 4 questions.  The the facts of the underlying claim have never been articulated, but certain posters can't look past that mistake and address the questions presented.  The facts are irrelevant to the questions asked.

So, no, no, no.


----------



## espola

Fact said:


> When my son wanted to leave a club for a team more in line with his skills and that actually developed players, we tried to be diplomatic saying that my work schedule conflicted with the new season's practice schedule and that we would love to come back if things changed.  We had a good relationship up until that point.  But the DOC still tried to sabotage our move by calling the new club. Soccer in SoCal is a small community and even smaller in Arizona.  You cannot underestimate the power of clubs, especially due to their relationships with other clubs and coaches.


Some clubs will use their influence within the governing organizations (Cal South, Presidio, USSFDA, etc) to hammer on their rivals.


----------



## watfly

MWN said:


> Let me see if I can get this back on track.
> 
> *In Summary:*
> @Bananacorner asked what exactly is "coach bullying" and how do "we" soccer parents, players, coaches know what constitutes behavior that crosses the line from a tough, negative or sarcastic coaching style to "bullying."  We then had a divergent quasi-off topic discussion apparently fueled by some morbid curiosity regarding requests for factual details because the original post set up the questions with a mistaken belief that a lawsuit had been filed.
> 
> @MWN provided links to some definitions of what constitutes bullying and links to various articles specifically addressing the coach/athlete dynamic in the context of "coach bullying."
> 
> @InTheValley argues that parents misuse the term "bullying" and make the claim too easily because those parents don't want to take responsibility for their own actions.  @toucan agrees and adds that parents have the power, not the coach.
> 
> @Nutmeg, @Soccer43 and others find @InTheValley's position unsatisfactory because it shifts the discussion from coaches to parents and avoids the main topic.
> 
> *Moving Forward:*
> 
> My first suggestion, let's try to avoid the ad hominem attacks (I know I have).
> 
> @InTheValley and @toucan,
> I fundamentally agree that parents play an important role and have some power after the fact.  They also have a duty to conduct a reasonable investigation/inquiry into the coaching style and tendencies to ensure their player is in the right situation.  I also wholeheartedly agree that many parents are too far sensitive and misuse the term "bullying" to describe coach behavior that is simply tough or negative, but not intended to cause harm to those players.
> 
> Where I find your position unsatisfactory is placing too much focus on parents.  Its almost akin to blaming the rape victim because she wore a short skirt in a bad part of town and went to the wrong bar.  The argument that parents are to blame for putting their kids on teams staffed by bad coaches is relevant only to how might parents lower the odds of finding their kid on a team with a coach that victimizes certain players.  But that isn't the question or the topic.  However, if your response is that coaches that victimize and abuse kids are never responsible for their actions, rather its the parents because they should have known better, then OK, I disagree.
> 
> *Can we agree on a definition of "bullying"?*
> I previously cited an article from changing the game "Is your kid's coach a bully?" that had three elements:
> 
> _An intent to harm,_
> _A power imbalance_
> _Repeated acts or threats of aggressive behavior._
> I've also mentioned that the US Olympic Committee has adopted the SafeSport program and requires all NGBs (National Governing Bodies) for the Olympic sports, such as USSF, adopt and implement the SafeSport program.  The SafeSport templates define bullying as follows:
> 
> _Bullying (Safesport, 2015 definition)_
> _
> Bullying is the use of coercion to obtain control over another person or to be habitually cruel to another person. Bullying involves an intentional, persistent or repeated pattern of committing or willfully tolerating physical and non-physical behaviors that are intended to cause fear, humiliation, or physical harm in an attempt to socially exclude, diminish, or isolate another person. Bullying can occur through written, verbal or electronically transmitted expression or by means of a physical act or gesture.
> 
> Bullying behavior is prohibited in any manner in connection with any Team USA sanctioned activities or events. Examples of bullying prohibited by this Policy include,without limitation physical behaviors, including punching, kicking or choking; and verbal and emotional behaviors, including, the use of electronic communications (i.e., “cyber bullying”), to harass, frighten, degrade, intimidate or humiliate. Bullying does not include group or team behaviors that are reasonably designed to establish normative team behaviors or promote team cohesion.
> _​The SafeSport definition of bullying is more detailed and directly avoids the "power imbalance" element because the definition is broader and is intended to apply to athlete on athlete situations.  It has basically 4 elements (see underlined text).
> 
> Can we all agree that the SafeSport definition of bullying is good and coaches that engage in behaviors should be drummed out of the club by the DOC after a reasonable investigation that validates the claims?   If not, what is wrong with the SafeSport definition?


I like the safesport definition better, but as you point out its really intended to cover athlete to athlete situations, so its not applicable.  What do we call the behavior I mentioned previously regarding coaches that only know how to coach through intimidation, insults and fear where their intent is not to harm but to "motivate" their players?  These coaches also tend to be equal opportunists and don't limit it to a person or two on the team.  (As opposed to the bullying described by Safesport where the intent is to "exclude, diminsh or isolate" a person).   I see more coaches that have an overall abusive coaching style than I see coaches that single out individuals on a repeated basis.  Neither of the behaviors is OK, but by your definitions the former behavior would not be considered bullying.  The reason being is that the underlying sources you cite are defining peer-to-peer bullying.  That's why I'll stick  with the "I know it when I see it" definition when it comes to coach vs. player bullying.


----------



## MWN

watfly said:


> I like the safesport definition better, but as you point out its really intended to cover athlete to athlete situations, so its not applicable.


Hold on.  Its broader because it applies to a all participants, which also includes coaches.  So it is applicable to the Coach/Athlete and Athlete/Athlete and Official/Athlete discussion.



watfly said:


> _*What do we call the behavior I mentioned previously regarding coaches that only know how to coach through intimidation, insults and fear where their intent is not to harm but to "motivate" their players?  These coaches also tend to be equal opportunists and don't limit it to a person or two on the team.*_  (As opposed to the bullying described by Safesport where the intent is to "exclude, diminsh or isolate" a person).   I see more coaches that have an overall abusive coaching style than I see coaches that single out individuals on a repeated basis.  Neither of the behaviors is OK, but by your definitions the former behavior would not be considered bullying.  The reason being is that the underlying sources you cite are defining peer-to-peer bullying.  That's why I'll stick  with the "I know it when I see it" definition when it comes to coach vs. player bullying.


That coaching style is commonly referred to as "Negative Coaching" and/or "Old School."  As mentioned above, it tends to be far less effective, especially with young people.  It can be rude, sarcastic and generally has the effect of being demotivating to young athletes (elementary and middle schoolers).  There are some athletes who can take it and brush it off.  Most people picture that drill sergeant with the gruff voice yelling and pushing the team through comments that are mildly demeaning, but with the clear intent to motivate the group.  Its the "stick" v. the "carrot" approach.  Negative coaching is often only effective when directed at the team (as a whole) or groups of multiple players (defenders, midfielders, goalkeepers, etc.).

*Old School Coaching (source: http://thesportdigest.com/archive/article/old-school-vs-new-school-coaching-styles)*

When the term "old school coach" is used the following characteristics come to mind:

punish first, converse later
atmosphere of fear of failure for the athlete
immediate short-term respect
knowledge of technical skills, but not tactical
undivided attention when speaking
intimidation of those who speak against the coach’s decisions
demeaning motivation
nonexistent relationship with the athletes and assistant coaches
loss of athlete’s attention due to negativity
athletes quit due to poor treatment

When an old school coach goes too far, the consequences can be disastrous.
"Bullying" is on the same spectrum of Negative/Old School coaching style and represents "going too far" and being intentionally harmful.  According to the definition, that Old School style goes too far when a coach intends to _socially exclude, diminish, or isolate _the player.

The problem we get into is all of us (including our kids) have a different tolerance level of "demeaning motivation" and "intimidation" and that tolerance level changes based on familiarity, age, sex and team standing.  For example, a U18 "Captain" of a boys Flight 1 team will likely process demeaning comments differently than a brand new player to a girls U10 team.


----------



## MWN

toucan said:


> [COLOR=#000000]I am not sure you fully understand my point, so I will try again.  I agree that parents don't always know how a coach will be when they sign up for a team or club.  I don't blame parents who make a mistake when they sign a kid up for a team, and the coach turns out to be a "bully," using the SafeSport definition.  Sometimes there is a mid-season change in coaches, and there is nothing a parent could have known about that.
> 
> I also agree that "bullying coaches," should not be tolerated.  Note, however, that in over 20 years of coaching my experience is purely anecdotal; I have never actually seen any coach do the things described in the SafeSport definition.  But I do not deny it has happened.  Note that the conduct described by some on this forum (phoning new coaches, clubs and colleges to blackball a player after leaving a team) does not qualify as "bullying" under the definition.  Although the conduct is surely intended to punish a player, it is not intended to "coerce" the player to do anything.  Note, however, such blackballing is likely actionable as a tort in a court of law.
> 
> When I claim that parents have the ultimate power, what I mean is this:  Once a parent realizes that a coach is a bully, then the parent can remove the player from the team, stop paying, file complaints, and speak with others.  Most clubs cannot afford to lose players, and if the club sees players leaving because of the coach, then the club is much more likely to fire a coach than to let a team disband because the coach is a bully.  Clubs need parents to pay the bills, and coaches who lose parents (and hence, players) will not usually be tolerated.
> 
> I say this in my capacity as both a coach and a DOC.[/COLOR]


Thank you for your thoughtful response.  I would tend to agree that the vast majority of coaches nowadays refrain from "bully" behaviors and we have less "Old School" coaches than we did 20 years ago.  As a result, the "Bully Coaches" are few and far between and most DOC's don't allow the "Old School" and "Negative" coaches into their organizations for the reasons you describe (customer dissatisfaction is high).  If the threat to "blackball" is made after the player has left the team, then it isn't "bullying" under the definition as to that player.  It could be argued that those remaining will feel coerced to stay for fear of their player being isolated and harmed.  If on the other hand the coach has developed a reputation for vindictive  actions after a player has left and responds to a parent that is "thinking of pulling his player" with threats to treat that player like the others that have left, then the "coercion" element is met.


----------



## MWN

@Bananacorner, here is the official Safesport publication for coaches on the subject of bullying.  It is mostly directed at assisting coaches to understand where the line is and focuses on player to player interaction more, but offer good guidance for coaches to understand bullying behaviors that their coaching staff might engage in.

https://77media.blob.core.windows.net/uscss/1520354560859.coaches-handbook.pdf


----------



## InTheValley

Fact said:


> When my son wanted to leave a club for a team more in line with his skills and that actually developed players, we tried to be diplomatic saying that my work schedule conflicted with the new season's practice schedule and that we would love to come back if things changed.  We had a good relationship up until that point.  But the DOC still tried to sabotage our move by calling the new club. Soccer in SoCal is a small community and even smaller in Arizona.  You cannot underestimate the power of clubs, especially due to their relationships with other clubs and coaches.


Did this phone call have a significant negative impact your child’s soccer career and, if so, how?  In the end, the risk of retaliation is way overblown. As a great soccer parent/philosopher once said on Jan. 16 in the “When should a player look for a new club?” thread:

“Yes but it take a special kind of a$@hole to call another DOC and make things up when he does not get his way. Thank goodness credible coachs and DOCs dont believe his crap.”


----------



## Fact

InTheValley said:


> Did this phone call have a significant negative impact your child’s soccer career and, if so, how?  In the end, the risk of retaliation is way overblown. As a great soccer parent/philosopher once said on Jan. 16 in the “When should a player look for a new club?” thread:
> 
> “Yes but it take a special kind of a$@hole to call another DOC and make things up when he does not get his way. Thank goodness credible coachs and DOCs dont believe his crap.”


No it did not have an impact other than an uncomfortable meeting btw my wife and the new DOC until she realized it was not an issue and he was just giving us a heads up.  Luckily the DOC knew first hand the bs the other DOC pulled.  However, it did impact other families we know of where the new club said no to even a tryout; my understanding was that fields for a tournament were not going to be allowed otherwise.


----------



## Not_that_Serious

Nefutous said:


> @Bananacorner    It would be nice to know the club and the specific allegations.  Who knows, this could be an extreme situation so that all the comments above are way off the mark.  Apples and oranges?


This isnt anything new. Besides seeing this at just about every tournament ive been at, ive sat on a field where my kid does group training. Here is something i heard recently at a Big Club Training Session:

_kids all sitting in a circle around the coach_
Coach: Johnny. He is a game changer. Always attacking. Billy. He is also good. Does a great job doing X, Y, Z.
(at this point i thought the guy was talking about another team)
Coach: YOU, SAMMY! YOU DONT SHOW UP TO PRACTICE. YOU DONT DO X, Y, Z.  I CAN GET ANOTHER KID IN HERE TO TAKE YOUR SPOT TOMORROW!

So you think this is an older age group, maybe even 12 year olds? Nope. Kids had to be maybe 7  years old. Parents dont hear this because they are all watch at tables a good distance from the kids. Wish the kid was old enough to defend himself, so the kid could have told the guy, "Hey Dude, I dont have a license, a car, a bus pass or a phone to get an Uber". the coach seemed a touch high-strung.


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## SoccerFan4Life

push_up said:


> What does this have to do with a male coach shaking an 18 year old player like a baby and screaming in her face during a DA game?  Is this the parents fault as well?


Yes.  As a parent if you see this. Have the nuts to get in the game and F off the coach.   Or at the very least tell him after the game that he was out of line and you will be demanding an apology. If he kicks your child out of the team, you take it to a higher level. If there's no higher level, go to a different program


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