# SoCal Soccer Attitude Change



## Sentient Being (Sep 16, 2016)

Here we go again, every year it's the same thing. Let's bash all the refs!! They're fat, lazy, don't know the rules, egotistical, bad knees, out of shape......

You guys, ( and I'm talking to the thousands of people on this forum) but really I'm talking to YOU... Why don't you do something about it. You know the the rules, your in shape, your in the prime of your life. Your a male between the age of 35-50, you have weekends off and are a reliable, intelligent guy. Why don't you step up and become a ref!! Why don't you step up and help foster this fledgling game of soccer here in the USA that you all believe should be a the same level as the European nations. Step up, give up your weekends, go run around in the heat, on crappy fields and listen to guys like you yell at you for 4 hours a day for basically minimum wage. Why don't YOU step up and become a ref??

Oh, I know why you don't....because you're all family men. Basically good guys with a couple of kids at home. You love your kids and enjoy spending time with them. So much so in fact, that you dont have the desire to give up some of the best memories your ever going to have with them. You would rather watch your kids play sports every weekend!! Who wouldn't!!! I don't blame you, I do the same thing!! We would all rather sit back and spend the fleeting moments that we have with our children watching them play sports, than have somebody else carpool our kids to a game while we go voluntarily ref somebody else's kids 30 miles in the opposite direction. It's understandable and nobody can blame you for being a great parent...

But...lets stop bashing the men and women who do give up their weekends of watching their kids, family and loved ones play their games!! They do sacrifice a lot to make sure your little Johnny can get his game in. They are in the sun all day, running up and down bumpy fields with no shade. (Have you ever tried running on a crappy field with goffer holes and never looking down to see where you are stepping because you are watching the ball so you don't make a mistake - ITS NOT EASY!). I have yet to see anybody offer a ref a nice cold bottle of water to cool down during the run of play when it's a hundred or an orange slice at half. 

So... Here's my point: since the majority of the primary ideal work force ( AGES 35 - 50) for refs is sitting on the sidelines being good family men and women, watching THEIR kids play, why don't we stop bashing these refs. Let's show some compassion, be grateful there is somebody to pick up the slack so that you can get that great picture, have that celebratory lunch right after the game, analyze the shortcomings of the coach and other players on the team (that's for SoCalUnited), and spend time with team friends and family that has come to support your child.

It's time to change our attitude towards refs, and look at why things are the way they are.....and be grateful for what we have.


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## watfly (Sep 16, 2016)

Unfortunately, club soccer has become a victim of its own "success"...it has gotten so big that there are not enough competent refs, coaches, DOC's, board members etc.  Comparatively speaking there is not a whole lot of supervision/accountability of these individuals.  The parents fund this system and, rightly or wrongly, believe they have right to complain when someone that they are paying doesn't do their job and refs are an easy target.  With a club or coach the parents can vote with there checkbook and move, not so with refs...so maybe that's why refs are subject to verbal abuse?

There are legitimate issues with the quality of reffing in club soccer but unfortunately these issues get drowned out by the crazy parents that complain about everything.   The legitimate issues are not about judgement calls made by the ref, but by refs that 1) either choose not to put in the effort or physically can't get in a position to stay up with the play and be in a position to make the call, and 2) refs that don't know the league or tourney rules that are posted for all to see(it seems that most are well versed in LOTG).  The last 3 weeks has been particularly bad in this regard, but it wasn't great all summer.  Is it too much to ask that Refs review the local rules before stepping on the pitch?

I find it interesting that often when someone complains on this forum about something a ref did, ref's and others are quick to retort that we should take it easy on refs because they run up and down the field in terrible conditions for little pay,  usually interlaced with an ad-hominem attack against the complainer.  Yet when someone complains about a coach (which happens frequently), there isn't a coach or someone else that claims we should cut coaches slack because they have to deal with whiny kids with different personalities, parents that continually complain about playing time and position,  and are continously running from field to field on game weekends, etc. at an hourly rate which is likely less than a ref's.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 16, 2016)

There are 2 kinds of people in this world:
Those who say "that's just how the world is".
And those who say "the world is what we make it".

I can see from your first sentence in your response watfly that you are a "that's just how the world is" kind of guy...
You state because parents fund the "system", they "rightly" have the power to abuse referees!!   I wonder how that philosophy translates in your household with your children and wife??
How can anyone justify that any type of abuse as "right"???  

You also bring up "Whiney" kids.  As a coach for many many years, I never met a "Whiney" kid, but I did meet a hell of a lot of adolescent "Whiney" parents...

For the record, I am not a referee actively at this time, but I have been.  Right now I am on the sidelines watching my kids play their final days of highly competitive successful soccer and enjoying every minute of it.  And I appreciate every weekend that we can go to a game.  So I sit back, take it all in and give thanks to those who provide for us to play in the best and most competitive gaming circuit in the country!  From the referee associations, the schedulers, from Cal South, to SCDSL, CSL and the USSDA, from the local clubs we have been a part of and all the parents who come out on Friday nights to line a field or two!

Hopefully we'll see you out there ON the pitch someday watfly....guiding our youth as a good referee...giving back to a sport which has given so much to you and yours.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 16, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> There are 2 kinds of people in this world:
> Those who say "that's just how the world is".
> And those who say "the world is what we make it".
> 
> ...


Actually he was the rationale one.
Your argument is non sensical. At nowhere at any point did watfly suggest anything you mentioned. 
If someone is paid to a do a job they should do it well. The guy at Subway doesn't get a free pass because he's behind a counter all day. A trauma surgeon doesn't get a free pass on holidays because he gave his family time to work.
Youth soccer is a business. Plain and simple. The ref are part of it. They should be held to standards - it's not that hard to suggest that. 
Your unicorn and light argument only works if they worked for free which last time I checked they didn't.
I will be the change. I am looking at the Man in the Mirror this weekend.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 16, 2016)

@watfly also agree the main issue is parents who haven't played or are unaware of the LOTG and therefore argue and create commotion. I agree with you whole heartedly about parent sideline behavior and general lack of knowledge of the game.
The latest is "that should be a yellow/red" 
Your point was not in vain.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 16, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> If someone is paid to a do a job they should do it well. The guy at Subway doesn't get a free pass because he's behind a counter all day. A trauma surgeon doesn't get a free pass on holidays because he gave his family time to work.
> Youth soccer is a business. Plain and simple. The ref are part of it. They should be held to standards - it's not that hard to suggest that.


Paid referees certainly should be held to standards, but I don't think that most the parents on the sideline are qualified to evaluate them. Every team my child has been a part of has some, frankly, ignorant comments made about the officiating. To be honest, many of them enjoy doing it. It is worth pointing out, however, they are in the minority.

Many coaches are part of the problem. Some gripe about every call they think should have gone their way or was missed in an attempt to sway the referee. The parents and, regrettably, players feed off it it. Cripes, the whole point of a throw-in is to resume play. It isn't there to reward or penalize a team. On what appears to be a simultaneous touch (without the benefit of replay) in the middle of the field, it is embarrassing to see a coach throw a fit if the referee awards the all important throw-in, 50+ yards from either goal, to the other team.


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## baldref (Sep 16, 2016)

verbally attacking or yelling at referees when you "think" they made an incorrect call does nothing positive. a very high percentage of referees are competent, and know much more about the laws of the game, and soccer in general than the parents that want to criticize. but the main point is, the referee doesn't care who wins or loses. the parent does. this is called bias. when there is bias and ignorance of what they are actually watching, there is no excuse nor acceptance for making an ass of yourself yelling about the throw in you think you were slighted. 

that being said, there are poor referees. a very small percentage. if you yell at them and verbally abuse them, you're doing nothing. go through the channels necessary to report poor refereeing. the gaming league is where i would go. enough complaints to the organization that pays the referee association that hired the bad official might get results. but make sure you're not complaining that the referee got the throw in wrong three times. report them if they are abusive to players, continually mis apply the laws, or are too old or too out of shape to keep up with play in the level they are assigned to. yes there is a "good ole boys" mentality that protects the poor referee. but believe me when i say, the rest of us, the "competent referees, are just as eager to break through that protection and rid our ranks of someone that is truly not worthy of representing us, as you are. 

for the most part, just watch your kids play and enjoy it. if you think there was a foul that didn't go your way, so what? if you think the referee didn't call that handball in the box and shorted your team a cheap penalty call, so what? because of your bias, it's usually you who are "wrong", not the referee. just watch, enjoy, and cheer on your squad. that would make the game so much better for you and everyone around you.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 16, 2016)

I record my kids soccer games and you will see how hard it is to make some of the calls that refs need to make in an instant.  Everyone just needs to relax. It's ok to make a comment like "that was a foul or that was offsides".   It's not cool to go crazy on berate a ref for a bad call.  Nobody is going to ruin their life by a bad call.    Personally I propose that there needs to be a tier so the best refs are used for championship games at gold level and above.   Let's keep in mind that only a few kids will go pro and that's not worth much in terms of salary.  Just enjoy the game and don't stress the small stuff.


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## watfly (Sep 16, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> I wonder how that philosophy translates in your household with your children and wife??


Wow, you actually went there.  Typical "ad hominem" response to a post that is critical of refs, ironic considering you claim to be a Sentient Being.   Why is it impossible to have a civil conversation about incompetent refs?

As ESPNANALYST pointed out, I didn't say many of things you accuse me of.  I never condoned the abuse of refs.  Do I believe parents have the right to complain on a soccer forum about incompetent refs...yep.  Do I believe parents have the right to demand competent officiating...absolutely.  Was my comment about whiney kids a little aggressive...sure, my kids only whine at home and are angels for their coaches and teachers, go figure.

As far as giving back to club soccer, I choose to write a check.  As far as giving back to kids, I have chosen the last 10 years to serve on the board and raise money for an organization that provides programs to underprivileged children...for no compensation, just the pleasure of giving kids an opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 16, 2016)

Not sure you know how to apply the use of "Ad Hominem" correctly.. I was not attacking you personally at all.  I was attacking your position of stating that "Abuse" of referee's in soccer is rightly or wrongly accepted, then relating your position to your personal life as a question.   

It is my opinion that there is no such thing as "right" abuse...it's ALL BAD...at every level.  It shouldn't be tolerated by anyone, and hopefully your a strong enough man to stand up to it when you see it.

Maybe upon reflection you and ESPNanalyst can be stewards of change this weekend and be a calming influence on the sidelines around you.  I have always found meditation helps...slow deep breaths..stillness..silence..   (Visions of unicorns and light!!)
See you boys on the pitch...and don't forget to thank a ref for their time..


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## BeepBeep Boop (Sep 17, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Not sure you know how to apply the use of "Ad Hominem" correctly.. I was not attacking you personally at all.  I was attacking your position of stating that "Abuse" of referee's in soccer is rightly or wrongly accepted, then relating your position to your personal life as a question.
> 
> It is my opinion that there is no such thing as "right" abuse...it's ALL BAD...at every level.  It shouldn't be tolerated by anyone, and hopefully your a strong enough man to stand up to it when you see it.
> 
> ...


>Not sure you know how to apply the use of "Ad Hominem" correctly.. I was not attacking you personally at all.

"_*Ad hominem*_ (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for _*argumentum ad hominem*_, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

>"I can see from your first sentence in your response watfly that you are a "that's just how the world is" kind of guy...I wonder how that philosophy translates in your household with your children and wife??"

Ad hominem is exactly the right term to apply here. You make broad assumptions about his thought process, character, and family life based on a comment in an internet forum with no knowledge of any of these things, solely in an attempt to discredit his argument.

"I was not attacking you personally at all."

Yes you were. His family life is completely irrelevant to this conversation and you brought it up to make him seem like some sort of caveman whose opinion can't be trusted because he doesn't share the same world view as you.

As far as your original post goes, I agree with you. I've been out there as an AR at the rec level and because of that I know EXACTLY how difficult the job is. I NEVER ride the refs and I agree that some parents (including those on my sideline) have limited knowledge of the LOTG and should read them before bitching at the refs.

Out of the tens of thousands of kids playing right now only a handful will ever get paid to play professionally, so I agree, everyone needs to RELAX.


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## watfly (Sep 17, 2016)

One thing that I think would help the situation, other than civility from both sides, would be the positioning of the bench and the parents.  I think all leagues and tourneys should have one team and its parents on one sideline and the other team and its parents should be on the opposite side.  The parents should be to the left of the coach (or to the right of the coach in the rare instances when the CR places his AR's on the left side).  This would solve a few problems, 1) the AR no longer has direct contact with the parents 2) the coach has better control over his/her parents behavior and 3) the CR is more likely to go directly to the coach re: parent behavior instead of engaging with parents regarding the merits of his/her call (as opposed to when the coach is on the other sideline).


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## espola (Sep 17, 2016)

watfly said:


> One thing that I think would help the situation, other than civility from both sides, would be the positioning of the bench and the parents.  I think all leagues and tourneys should have one team and its parents on one sideline and the other team and its parents should be on the opposite side.  The parents should be to the left of the coach (or to the right of the coach in the rare instances when the CR places his AR's on the left side).  This would solve a few problems, 1) the AR no longer has direct contact with the parents 2) the coach has better control over his/her parents behavior and 3) the CR is more likely to go directly to the coach re: parent behavior instead of engaging with parents regarding the merits of his/her call (as opposed to when the coach is on the other sideline).


"I'm sorry, parents, but today we are scheduled to run a reverse diagonal, so you will all have to move to the other end of the field."


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## watfly (Sep 17, 2016)

espola said:


> "I'm sorry, parents, but today we are scheduled to run a reverse diagonal, so you will all have to move to the other end of the field."


I wish I was joking but it happened a couple weeks ago, and that was just the tip of the iceberg.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 17, 2016)

Once again people make a big deal out of nothing.  In addition to enforcing the holy "laws of the game" , soccer referees have some opinion that they are responsible to enforce morality, and manners when it comes to the crowd.  If you think American parents and spectators are passionate about soccer, try going to a game in South America or Europe.  Refs need to get a little less concerned with what is said on the sidelines and concentrate on the people playing the game.  If as a ref you have a problem taking some guff from fans/spectators/parents maybe you are in the wrong line of work.  Most refs i watch do a good job, they miss some calls that they probably should get but hey for the most part they do the best they can.  The ones that I find amusing is the ones that have no tolerance for any type of what they perceive as disrespect or questioning.  They are more worried about whether someones shirt is tucked in or some parent yelled than if the player is out of bounds.  I am one of the "let them play" types because I believe soccer is a contact sport and sometimes people get hurt.  When my daughter complains of someone grabbing her shirt or pushing her in the back, I am the guy who says quit your whining and elbow her in the nose next time.   I guess that makes me part of the problem..it a "beautiful game" not a rugby match or hockey...


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## Socal United (Sep 17, 2016)

baldref said:


> verbally attacking or yelling at referees when you "think" they made an incorrect call does nothing positive. a very high percentage of referees are competent, and know much more about the laws of the game, and soccer in general than the parents that want to criticize. but the main point is, the referee doesn't care who wins or loses. the parent does. this is called bias. when there is bias and ignorance of what they are actually watching, there is no excuse nor acceptance for making an ass of yourself yelling about the throw in you think you were slighted.
> 
> that being said, there are poor referees. a very small percentage. if you yell at them and verbally abuse them, you're doing nothing. go through the channels necessary to report poor refereeing. the gaming league is where i would go. enough complaints to the organization that pays the referee association that hired the bad official might get results. but make sure you're not complaining that the referee got the throw in wrong three times. report them if they are abusive to players, continually mis apply the laws, or are too old or too out of shape to keep up with play in the level they are assigned to. yes there is a "good ole boys" mentality that protects the poor referee. but believe me when i say, the rest of us, the "competent referees, are just as eager to break through that protection and rid our ranks of someone that is truly not worthy of representing us, as you are.
> 
> for the most part, just watch your kids play and enjoy it. if you think there was a foul that didn't go your way, so what? if you think the referee didn't call that handball in the box and shorted your team a cheap penalty call, so what? because of your bias, it's usually you who are "wrong", not the referee. just watch, enjoy, and cheer on your squad. that would make the game so much better for you and everyone around you.


I completely agree.  Most of the referees are fine and do as well as they can.  I personally hate the coaches and parents on opposite sides, no matter what we try to do parents are like kids during games, without supervision they lose their minds.  Nothing is going to change that.  My issue is with those few that think they are all knowing.  I am sure you are aware, presidio made that handy little one page paper on the rule changes for the 7v7.  During the first half, I at first tried to help her out, as did the opposing coach.  No change.  At halftime, we both went out to her and I handed her the form they sent out.  She looked it over, looked at us, then said "I will call the game like I want" and walked away.  We both walked away laughing and went back to our team to go over the rules for the day.  We are paying for a service and should expect it to be done properly.  I rarely say anything to the refs as I am not really interested in them as I coach the littles and am focused on what they are doing.  I can much more easily fix their mistakes than the refs and have way more to gain by doing so.  

If we could easily discard both the coaches and the refs that can't seem to do it right it would make the game so much better.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 17, 2016)

watfly said:


> One thing that I think would help the situation, other than civility from both sides, would be the positioning of the bench and the parents. I think all leagues and tourneys should have one team and its parents on one sideline and the other team and its parents should be on the opposite side. The parents should be to the left of the coach (or to the right of the coach in the rare instances when the CR places his AR's on the left side).


My daughter's team does this. I love it. All teams should enforce this policy on themselves in competitions where the teams have their own sideline. It keeps the parents from making a problem for the coach by harassing the AR. Just sit on your bench's left side and enjoy the game. There are only 2 time's I'm aware of a right hand diagonal being utilized, although I'm sure there are others. In one field I am aware of, there is often a massive mud puddle just off the field that the AR would have to work in. In the other (not witnessed by myself) parents on that side were being jerks, so they flipped it for the second half. I hate to run right hand because I find myself out of position too often. I'm sure more experienced referees can deal better with it.


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## baldref (Sep 17, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Once again people make a big deal out of nothing.  In addition to enforcing the holy "laws of the game" , soccer referees have some opinion that they are responsible to enforce morality, and manners when it comes to the crowd.  If you think American parents and spectators are passionate about soccer, try going to a game in South America or Europe.  Refs need to get a little less concerned with what is said on the sidelines and concentrate on the people playing the game.  If as a ref you have a problem taking some guff from fans/spectators/parents maybe you are in the wrong line of work.  Most refs i watch do a good job, they miss some calls that they probably should get but hey for the most part they do the best they can.  The ones that I find amusing is the ones that have no tolerance for any type of what they perceive as disrespect or questioning.  They are more worried about whether someones shirt is tucked in or some parent yelled than if the player is out of bounds.  I am one of the "let them play" types because I believe soccer is a contact sport and sometimes people get hurt.  When my daughter complains of someone grabbing her shirt or pushing her in the back, I am the guy who says quit your whining and elbow her in the nose next time.   I guess that makes me part of the problem..it a "beautiful game" not a rugby match or hockey...


and another one who doesn't get it. the game is about the players. not their ridiculous parents who make them uncomfortable by making asses out of themselves. the ref should not have to "take guff" from anyone. it's poor manners, poor sportsmanship, and doesn't belong in youth sports. soccer referees are given tools, by the gaming leagues, tournaments, etc., and are told to deal with this. some do, some need to, and a slight number, very few, abuse it. just shut the hell up and let your child play. don't encourage them to be asses, by being an ass yourself.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 17, 2016)

baldref said:


> and another one who doesn't get it. the game is about the players. not their ridiculous parents who make them uncomfortable by making asses out of themselves. the ref should not have to "take guff" from anyone. it's poor manners, poor sportsmanship, and doesn't belong in youth sports. soccer referees are given tools, by the gaming leagues, tournaments, etc., and are told to deal with this. some do, some need to, and a slight number, very few, abuse it. just shut the hell up and let your child play. don't encourage them to be asses, by being an ass yourself.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 17, 2016)

You obviously don't know me, I maybe say ten words at a soccer game.  I have never talked to a ref during a game in the 8 years or so that my kids have been playing.  I don't even really like soccer to be honest because of the attitude of many in the sport.  I am the guy that brings my kid, sits in my chair and watches and gets up and leaves when the game is over.  i have been known to miss stuff that happens when i am reading the paper or checking my phone or chatting with someone from another game going on behind me.  I am not one of the problem parents you guys have so much heartburn with.  I think my total contact with my kids coach has been something like, "how u doing, hot today huh, or good game today."  But, it doesn't take a soccer expert, or a referee card to see when a ref is so insecure or full of them self to let stuff go.  All they do is make the situation worse.  The problem with our society, we have turned into a bunch of candy asses who need to make sure that no one gets bullied or nobody gets their feelings hurt or disrespected.   didn't your mamma ever tell you that "sticks and stones can break your bones but word can't hurt you?"  I go to many high school football games, many of my neighbors and friend's kid's baseball games, the basketball tournaments, etc .  I never see the officials worry about what the crowd says.  Not once have I seen a football ref stop a game because someone in the bleachers was vocal about the call.  I see it at youth soccer games all the time.  I never encourage my kid to be an ass, in fact she knows better.  Not once has she ever talked back or disrespected a ref, but she will not be a helpless victim either, who has to depend the the ref, a teacher or anyone else to protect her from harm.  My daughter is a respectful warrior if anything else.  I think you need to find another line of work bald ref, This kids soccer too rough for you.  Some soccer mamma gonna question your manhood or something.....wow haven't typed that much since college


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## Laced (Sep 17, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> You obviously don't know me, I maybe say ten words at a soccer game.  I have never talked to a ref during a game in the 8 years or so that my kids have been playing.  I don't even really like soccer to be honest because of the attitude of many in the sport.  I am the guy that brings my kid, sits in my chair and watches and gets up and leaves when the game is over.  i have been known to miss stuff that happens when i am reading the paper or checking my phone or chatting with someone from another game going on behind me.  I am not one of the problem parents you guys have so much heartburn with.  I think my total contact with my kids coach has been something like, "how u doing, hot today huh, or good game today."  But, it doesn't take a soccer expert, or a referee card to see when a ref is so insecure or full of them self to let stuff go.  All they do is make the situation worse.  The problem with our society, we have turned into a bunch of candy asses who need to make sure that no one gets bullied or nobody gets their feelings hurt or disrespected.   didn't your mamma ever tell you that "sticks and stones can break your bones but word can't hurt you?"  I go to many high school football games, many of my neighbors and friend's kid's baseball games, the basketball tournaments, etc .  I never see the officials worry about what the crowd says.  Not once have I seen a football ref stop a game because someone in the bleachers was vocal about the call.  I see it at youth soccer games all the time.  I never encourage my kid to be an ass, in fact she knows better.  Not once has she ever talked back or disrespected a ref, but she will not be a helpless victim either, who has to depend the the ref, a teacher or anyone else to protect her from harm.  My daughter is a respectful warrior if anything else.  I think you need to find another line of work bald ref, This kids soccer too rough for you.  Some soccer mamma gonna question your manhood or something.....wow haven't typed that much since college


You nailed it!


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## baldref (Sep 18, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I think you need to find another line of work bald ref, This kids soccer too rough for you. Some soccer mamma gonna question your manhood or something


once again, you don't get it. but i respect your opinion. as for my "line of work", it isn't soccer ref. i do this because i love it, and i'm very good at it. and, i do it for the players, not their insane parents who think because they pay incredible club fees, it gives them the right to act like morons.

off to have another marvelous day watching soccer from the bests eat in the house. seven yards from the ball.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 18, 2016)

All the refs are on the thread now and the know it alls too...where is JAP though? We need JAP.


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## mommato2girls (Sep 18, 2016)

I find it interesting that parents are asked to sit on opposite side of the fields. It speaks volumes about parents. Last year we sat on the same side as opposing parents teams and all the kids sat together with the coaches. Our old coach preferred that, he hated when parents got up to talk to kids on the bench or worse when kids went over to mom and dad for something during a game. Not once did we have an altercation between parents. As far as the refs, besides a few 'come on ref, that wasn't offsides' or whatever, never any problems. And we did run water to the refs on hot days...soccer is weird here. Today our team was blown out, end of second half ref called a foul on opposing team, their parents flipped. It had zero impact on the score, the game but they were yelling crazy. I don't get it :/


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## jrcaesar (Sep 18, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Not once have I seen a football ref stop a game because someone in the bleachers was vocal about the call. I see it at youth soccer games all the time.


This has more to do with soccer's Laws of the Game and tradition (unlike American-driven sports that demands referees tolerate abuse, soccer is the opposite) than people's candy asses.  Sidenote: high school basketball is much, much worse than a soccer sideline. Officials should not have to tolerate it, but they do.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 18, 2016)

Last time I checked we were in America....


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## Laced (Sep 18, 2016)

baldref said:


> once again, you don't get it. but i respect your opinion. as for my "line of work", it isn't soccer ref. i do this because i love it, and i'm very good at it. and, i do it for the players, not their insane parents who think because they pay incredible club fees, it gives them the right to act like morons.
> 
> off to have another marvelous day watching soccer from the bests eat in the house. seven yards from the ball.


I think you're the one not getting it. The discussion of some refs' overreacting and the quality of officiating has nothing to do with sideline abuse or your competence as a ref. If you think sideline abuse (which nobody is defending) is an issue, being confrontational and thin-skinned doesn't solve it. It only escalates. If you really respect people when they disagree with you, don't accuse them being one of the lunatics. If you genuinely believe that the game is about the kids, why claim "I'm very good at it?" How is it relevant?

The reality is that most parents despise these few bad apples. To most of us, soccer is a family event we look forward to. A confrontation between refs and some other parents ruins it for all of us. You may disagree with it, but some of us believe the fault lies with those idiots. It also lies partially with those confrontational, overreacting refs.


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## Laced (Sep 18, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> This has more to do with soccer's Laws of the Game and tradition (unlike American-driven sports that demands referees tolerate abuse, soccer is the opposite) than people's candy asses.  Sidenote: high school basketball is much, much worse than a soccer sideline. Officials should not have to tolerate it, but they do.


That's simply laughable. You obviously haven't been to a youth soccer game overseas. England has the oldest football tradition. It's also known for its violent hooligans. Violence is a lot more rare among American sports spectators. What tradition are you talking about?


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## Sentient Being (Sep 18, 2016)

Hello everybody!  Hope you all had wonderful games this weekend!
It's great to see all the dialogue that has come from the start of this thread.  But it is sad to see that most of it is one sided and that many of the posts are people still arguing the right to abuse refs for all the horrendous reasons you have listed.

Hopefully some of you were able to see the "unicorns and light" and make a positive change.  I did, and I'd like to share that story with you now...

So although my son just joined a team with chronic ref abusers, I have made it my mission to be a calming influence on the leader of the bunch and the sideline in general.  Over the last 2 weekends I have been able to isolate this parent and diffuse him/her from going ballistic over trivial calls.  I have been able to do this by stating simple facts:
1-hold on, he didn't make the call because he was playing the advantage for us...it was a good no call.
2-relax, we were offsides, he made the right call.
3-that was a good call, we did foul the other team that time, the ref is doing a good job calling it both ways.

Other things that have been working are:
Talking about the kids in school.
Talking about things going on in SoCal.
Talking about how everybodys summer went.
Talking about other things all while we watch our kids play a game of soccer. Relaxing!!! Sitting in our chairs!

I have noticed that other parents have noticed and are now doing the same thing.  It's amazing....really, it truly is!

I challenge anybody who reads this to try the same thing...see if you can enlighten other parents on better sideline etiquette!  See if YOU can make our soccer fields a better place for everybody, and a much better place for our kids...


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## baldref (Sep 18, 2016)

Laced said:


> If you think sideline abuse (which nobody is defending) is an issue, being confrontational and thin-skinned doesn't solve it. I


I'm not being confrontational or thin skinned. I'm just solving it, plain and simple. It's not allowed. End of story


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 18, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Hello everybody!  Hope you all had wonderful games this weekend!
> It's great to see all the dialogue that has come from the start of this thread.  But it is sad to see that most of it is one sided and that many of the posts are people still arguing the right to abuse refs for all the horrendous reasons you have listed.
> 
> Hopefully some of you were able to see the "unicorns and light" and make a positive change.  I did, and I'd like to share that story with you now...
> ...


I installed a lavender aromatherapy mister on the sidelines it was phenomenal. Another parent bought a weighted vest for anxious parents. 
Teamwork makes the dream work.
I love that you have embraced my unicorn and lights mantra. Next week try "sunshine and rainbows". It's a game changer.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 18, 2016)

Laced said:


> I think you're the one not getting it. The discussion of some refs' overreacting and the quality of officiating has nothing to do with sideline abuse or your competence as a ref. If you think sideline abuse (which nobody is defending) is an issue, being confrontational and thin-skinned doesn't solve it. It only escalates. If you really respect people when they disagree with you, don't accuse them being one of the lunatics. If you genuinely believe that the game is about the kids, why claim "I'm very good at it?" How is it relevant?
> 
> The reality is that most parents despise these few bad apples. To most of us, soccer is a family event we look forward to. A confrontation between refs and some other parents ruins it for all of us. You may disagree with it, but some of us believe the fault lies with those idiots. It also lies partially with those confrontational, overreacting refs.


He's a ref on a discussion board- enough said. Let it go like Frozen. Let it go. 
There are ways to handle bad refs professionally.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 18, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> I find it interesting that parents are asked to sit on opposite side of the fields. It speaks volumes about parents. Last year we sat on the same side as opposing parents teams and all the kids sat together with the coaches. Our old coach preferred that, he hated when parents got up to talk to kids on the bench or worse when kids went over to mom and dad for something during a game. Not once did we have an altercation between parents. As far as the refs, besides a few 'come on ref, that wasn't offsides' or whatever, never any problems. And we did run water to the refs on hot days...soccer is weird here. Today our team was blown out, end of second half ref called a foul on opposing team, their parents flipped. It had zero impact on the score, the game but they were yelling crazy. I don't get it :/


Completely agree. SCDSL likes it this way though and we never have an issue when we are in the same side line with coach. 
Also agree though that it should never have to come to this. No one should be subjected not the kids, guests, parents or refs and I don't think anyone is arguing that. 
Parents watching high intensity games at CRL have been very classless this year. Not the coach or the refs have stopped it once


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## wildcat66 (Sep 18, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Hello everybody!  Hope you all had wonderful games this weekend!
> It's great to see all the dialogue that has come from the start of this thread.  But it is sad to see that most of it is one sided and that many of the posts are people still arguing the right to abuse refs for all the horrendous reasons you have listed.
> 
> Hopefully some of you were able to see the "unicorns and light" and make a positive change.  I did, and I'd like to share that story with you now...
> ...


    I don't say much at games and am pretty friendly but I may have to move if I saw you coming....LOL perhaps some calming harp music or bubbles as well


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## jrcaesar (Sep 18, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> So although my son just joined a team with chronic ref abusers


We left a team like this. (But our U12 son also is not aspiring to play DA, so we have choices.) Not enough weekends in life...


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 18, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I don't say much at games and am pretty friendly but I may have to move if I saw you coming....LOL perhaps some calming harp music or bubbles as well


@Sentient Being  real talk not being sarcastic here. Do your teachings and wellness retract tactics work on high profile parents who are in Boards and friends of the DOC, or even the "assistant coach" parents who are my personal favorites. 
You are swinging at low hanging easily distractable fruit. Find a case study as listed above and let me know how that pans out because I am ALL IN if you can solve that puzzle .


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## mirage (Sep 18, 2016)

Just a reminder that, I'm sure you've heard it yourselves, players (kids) have told parents to stop while on the field because they are embarrassed by parent behavior. 

Really doesn't matter if it's the bad ref or parents, let's remember that neither are playing the game. Let them learn to deal with adversities. Maybe it's a bad call or bad tackle not called. The game is filled with error because we're humans and don't always get it right. 

As for the attitude in general, I don't think it's any worse than before and if it seems that way to you, maybe it's just new to you.


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## espola (Sep 18, 2016)

If we don't straighten out the referees when they are doing youth games, they will grow up to become NCAA referees like the one who butchered the UCLA game at UCSB yesterday.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 19, 2016)

There are good refs and bad refs. By screaming at bad ones you will not make them better. Some bad ones will get better with experience. The worst ones is the bad and ignorant ones - they will never get better. I can assure you though, there are more good refs than bad ones. If you get a bad ref at your game - don't worry - good one is coming to next game. If the winning team complains about referee - then he/she must of been really bad. 
Couple of posters here mentioned here how bad it is in Europe...BS - you either never been there or have no clue whats really going on nowadays.
In England there is very strict rule about sideline behavior. Every club MUST have what they call it respect line (see photo) and parents have to stay behind it, not allowed to cross it and not allowed to complain about referee calls. Only Coach allowed to speak to a referee or ask a question in a polite manner. All violations reported to FA which fines youth clubs.
On the other hand, if any of you here familiar with LOTG, parents is NOT part of the game - only players, coaches and referees. All leagues also have rules in place which puts coach to be responsible for parent behavior.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 19, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> @Sentient Being  real talk not being sarcastic here. Do your teachings and wellness retract tactics work on high profile parents who are in Boards and friends of the DOC, or even the "assistant coach" parents who are my personal favorites.
> You are swinging at low hanging easily distractable fruit. Find a case study as listed above and let me know how that pans out because I am ALL IN if you can solve that puzzle .


As a matter of fact, the parent in question that I have been working on IS a board member for many years and the active team manager!  The assistant coach of the team and another high ranking board member have also both started to "ease" into the calmness surrounding the sideline aura..  

The change is real.. The games will be played.  It's just so much of a better atmosphere without all the yelling and abuse..


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 19, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> As a matter of fact, the parent in question that I have been working on IS a board member for many years and the active team manager!  The assistant coach of the team and another high ranking board member have also both started to "ease" into the calmness surrounding the sideline aura..
> 
> The change is real.. The games will be played.  It's just so much of a better atmosphere without all the yelling and abuse..


In that case how much do you charge for site visits


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## tugs (Sep 19, 2016)

Our coach keeps parents in line by pointing out 2 tidbits:
1.  College scouts are everywhere at this level and will note who the crazy soccer parent is who their player is.  Scratch that one off the list.
2.  If he hears a parent berating a referee the child will not be playing the next game.  No discussions needed.

Seems to work pretty well.


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## ocref (Sep 19, 2016)

I have worked with many different refs over the years and rarely come across what I call a "bad" ref. By far, most referees are good at what they do and some are excellent. Most want to improve and learn. Bad refs will be noticed within their associations and by the assignors and are usually dealt with in a number of ways, from direct feedback to more subtle ways such as given lower priority in the assigning process. The ones that are not that good are usually relatively new to USSF and still getting the hang of it. They just need to be mentored. Most ref associations try to team up those newer guys and gals up with a couple of vets with the aim to give them some constructive feedback following the match. It really takes many many matches to gain sufficient experience to develop into a quality ref. It takes a lot of work, training, feedback etc. Unfortunately many of the teens in our association do not want to step in as the center and many others eventually quit. Too many are discouraged by what they see and experience. The sport is growing with game counts increasing each year and we're struggling to cover all the games ... there's a shortage of refs. Yesterday I worked 2 adult games in the am then 2 SCDSL BU17 & BU19 in the pm. A total of 4 90 minute games (2 as center) on a Sunday because there's just not enough higher level refs to cover. So what you have is a State Ref that is often doing 6+hours of games covering higher level games & the less experienced ref trying to get through a youngers match the best he can. But it's with the youngers that the parents are at their worst, which is where we're trying to encourage the newer and younger refs to grow and develop. Sometimes parents are genuinely observing mistakes being made and other times the ref is correctly applying the Laws or avoiding calling trifling fouls that could disrupt the flow of the game. Most of the complaints I hear from spectators only demonstrate their ignorance. My concern is with the continued development of the sport and with that we need to develop the next generation of refs. Next time you want to complain or shout at a ref, remember this quote from Harper Lee: "Better to remain silent than be a fool".


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## 3JMommy (Sep 20, 2016)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Nobody is going to ruin their life by a bad call.


I agree with one exception: in regard to repeated fouls from the same player or two, I would appreciate more calls, and quicker warnings and yellows. Have seen way too many injuries that are caused by games getting too heated emotionally. Call a couple early, give a warning or two, and things will generally settle down more quickly.


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## jdiaz (Sep 20, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Here we go again, every year it's the same thing. Let's bash all the refs!! They're fat, lazy, don't know the rules, egotistical, bad knees, out of shape......
> 
> You guys, ( and I'm talking to the thousands of people on this forum) but really I'm talking to YOU... Why don't you do something about it. You know the the rules, your in shape, your in the prime of your life. Your a male between the age of 35-50, you have weekends off and are a reliable, intelligent guy. Why don't you step up and become a ref!! Why don't you step up and help foster this fledgling game of soccer here in the USA that you all believe should be a the same level as the European nations. Step up, give up your weekends, go run around in the heat, on crappy fields and listen to guys like you yell at you for 4 hours a day for basically minimum wage. Why don't YOU step up and become a ref??
> 
> ...


Remember  different ages different money for refs. For refs do the math 3 guys or girls three games a ref team . Each refs centers which make the most.
That adds up to $100 for three games how is that minimum wages? That's each ref $100?


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## charlie murphy (Sep 20, 2016)

Ok was not going to get into this discussion but here goes. This thread is running parallel in another area without response and was duplicated by "sentient being here" here. Here it seems that "sentient being" got some to take the bait like I just did. ( 'Sentient being" ? You really think so? You probably do. anyway that is a different topic) . I am sure we all go thru the same of similar debriefing after a game with our kids on the way home , win or lose. Has anyone gotten " the ref talked too much. " To which you ask "what did he say" . He was telling (the other) team to go long and play "rapido" over the top because "# x " is faster than (X - defender) . Same game " vamos , rapido , 'top left the goalie has the sun in his face' ( translated for non Spanish speakers) ". Does the ref realize Spanish is not a secret language . I would call this a BAD ref.  PS. this was a U 16 game in Premier league, so this was not 8 year olds needing a little help.


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## baldref (Sep 20, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Remember  different ages different money for refs. For refs do the math 3 guys or girls three games a ref team . Each refs centers which make the most.
> That adds up to $100 for three games how is that minimum wages? That's each ref $100?


you don't know what you're talking about. read the thread to find out the facts.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 20, 2016)

Charlie Murphy, no bait needed!! Welcome to the discussion, as all perspectives are most welcome.  I know you will be a great asset in the cause to stop referee abuse,  and a great sideline role model for kids and parents.

As far as a ref coaching kids to run plays or where to shoot is something I have never experienced or even heard of.   I'm sure even I would lose some degree of universal calmness seeing a ref involved in collusion in any forum.  Hopefully you were able to go through the proper channels to report that behavior.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 20, 2016)

charlie murphy said:


> He was telling (the other) team to go long and play "rapido" over the top because "# x " is faster than (X - defender) . Same game " vamos , rapido , 'top left the goalie has the sun in his face' ( translated for non Spanish speakers) ".


A couple years ago my daughter's team played a team in the South Bay (San Diego) and 2 of our players came to the sidelines after the game saying the referee was coaching the team in Spanish. A complaint was filed with the league with a statement from both players about what exactly was said, but I don't think anything came of it. We never followed up. I began to suspect that the story, while it had a basis in truth, got a little exaggerated by our players (U11). I think kids can be easily swayed by group-think.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 20, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Remember  different ages different money for refs. For refs do the math 3 guys or girls three games a ref team . Each refs centers which make the most.
> That adds up to $100 for three games how is that minimum wages? That's each ref $100?


jdiaz,  thanks for the input...your right, it's probably not minimum wage.  I'd like to recommend a book for you to read:  Critical Thinking, an introduction by Alex Fisher.


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## jdiaz (Sep 20, 2016)

baldref said:


> you don't know what you're talking about. read the thread to find out the facts.


 U14 team ref fee is $64 a team in southern California development league
So that's $128 game cash! Do the math 42.67 a ref. X3 games =  $128 for 3 hrs of work break it down smart one 42.67 hr.
Minimum wage $11 hr. And take out taxes. Really buddy!!!


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## goaldigger (Sep 20, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> jdiaz,  thanks for the input...your right, it's probably not minimum wage.  I'd like to recommend a book for you to read:  Critical Thinking, an introduction by Alex Fisher.


This guy isn't for real.
Genius if you want to quite a book make sure you know the authors name. It's Alec. Alec Fischer. 
The irony is rich. 
Clown!


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## Sentient Being (Sep 20, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> U14 team ref fee is $64 a team in southern California development league
> So that's $128 game cash! Do the math 42.67 a ref. X3 games =  $128 for 3 hrs of work break it down smart one 42.67 hr.
> Minimum wage $11 hr. And take out taxes. Really buddy!!!


You got me...  that was the whole point of my post...I tried to sneak it past everybody..but you sniffed it out...point taken...


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## goaldigger (Sep 20, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Hello everybody!  Hope you all had wonderful games this weekend!
> It's great to see all the dialogue that has come from the start of this thread.  But it is sad to see that most of it is one sided and that many of the posts are people still arguing the right to abuse refs for all the horrendous reasons you have listed.
> 
> Hopefully some of you were able to see the "unicorns and light" and make a positive change.  I did, and I'd like to share that story with you now...
> ...


Name the club and team. I am dying to know


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## jrcaesar (Sep 20, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> U14 team ref fee is $64 a team in southern California development league
> So that's $128 game cash! Do the math 42.67 a ref. X3 games =  $128 for 3 hrs of work break it down smart one 42.67 hr.
> Minimum wage $11 hr. And take out taxes. Really buddy!!!


Even U10s in CSL is $80 per referee crew, cash.


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## Laced (Sep 20, 2016)

Eagle33 said:


> There are good refs and bad refs. By screaming at bad ones you will not make them better. Some bad ones will get better with experience. The worst ones is the bad and ignorant ones - they will never get better. I can assure you though, there are more good refs than bad ones. If you get a bad ref at your game - don't worry - good one is coming to next game. If the winning team complains about referee - then he/she must of been really bad.
> Couple of posters here mentioned here how bad it is in Europe...BS - you either never been there or have no clue whats really going on nowadays.
> In England there is very strict rule about sideline behavior. Every club MUST have what they call it respect line (see photo) and parents have to stay behind it, not allowed to cross it and not allowed to complain about referee calls. Only Coach allowed to speak to a referee or ask a question in a polite manner. All violations reported to FA which fines youth clubs.
> On the other hand, if any of you here familiar with LOTG, parents is NOT part of the game - only players, coaches and referees. All leagues also have rules in place which puts coach to be responsible for parent behavior.
> View attachment 139


BS? Really? In terms of spectator behavior, England of all countries is your shining city on the hill? Really? At the recent Euro Cup, riot police fired teargas because European fans joined hands and sang kumbaya? Just recently English parents rushed onto the field during the game to yell at 12-year-old opposing players during youth world cup in Sweden. Touchline issues are on a different scale there, with parents berating their own primary-school-aged children, parents and managers rushing on the field to harass teenaged refs, etc. Even brawls are reported from time to time. Years after FA introduced the respect line, the English sports minister threatened arrests in an attempt to curb touchline abuse. Their sports minister is full of bs?


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## Sentient Being (Sep 20, 2016)

goaldigger said:


> This guy isn't for real.
> Genius if you want to quite a book make sure you know the authors name. It's Alec. Alec Fischer.
> The irony is rich.
> Clown!


Well done...hopefully looking up that book has helped you in some way my friend..  
William, Will or Bill
Richard, Rick or Dick....

I think you get my point...


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## Surfref (Sep 20, 2016)

watfly said:


> One thing that I think would help the situation, other than civility from both sides, would be the positioning of the bench and the parents.  I think all leagues and tourneys should have one team and its parents on one sideline and the other team and its parents should be on the opposite side.  The parents should be to the left of the coach (or to the right of the coach in the rare instances when the CR places his AR's on the left side).  This would solve a few problems, 1) the AR no longer has direct contact with the parents 2) the coach has better control over his/her parents behavior and 3) the CR is more likely to go directly to the coach re: parent behavior instead of engaging with parents regarding the merits of his/her call (as opposed to when the coach is on the other sideline).


Referees should never engage problem parents.  Nothing we say will change their mind.  I engage the coach and remind the coach, "Coach you are responsible for your spectators.  The guy in the red shirt is going to get you thrown out and I would prefer to keep you here.  Please take care of the problem."  I have only had two coaches not take care of the problem on the first warning, but did send the parent away on the second and final warning."

I really don't care that parents will yell something at me once than shut up.  It is the parents that continually yell and I start to hear the same thing from the players.  These are the parents that I ask the coach to take care of.


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## MakeAPlay (Sep 20, 2016)

As long as refs protect the players and call a consistent game I am happy.  I am okay with them allowing or disallowing whatever their interpretations of the LOTG are just call the game the same both ways.  >95% of the time the ref is right.  There are exceptions


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## baldref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> U14 team ref fee is $64 a team in southern California development league
> So that's $128 game cash! Do the math 42.67 a ref. X3 games =  $128 for 3 hrs of work break it down smart one 42.67 hr.
> Minimum wage $11 hr. And take out taxes. Really buddy!!!


Three hours of work? As I said, you don't know what you're talking about


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

baldref said:


> Three hours of work? As I said, you don't know what you're talking about


Each game is 40 or 45 minutes buddy. Another bright one to the rescue.


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

For the very bright ones! What you should be asking. Why isn't there a review board doing evaluations on referees.   That way they can be corrected on their bad calls in a game. Also make sure the can physically run up and down the field and etc. I have asked many times this question and the answer is no there isn't.  In Mexico , South America, and Europe there is a evaluation on referees.  There is some good referees and there's bad ones too. And before you say something stupid I have a amputation and bone problems or would be ref. But lot of parents think they know futbol and find it funny. I hear their screaming offsides or he deserves a yellow card or red card. Because their Johnny boy got tackled. This is club soccer, Academy level of play not AYSO.and Johnny is on the bench and not playing then your son needs a new team or private trainer to pick up his game.


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

baldref said:


> Three hours of work? As I said, you don't know what you're talking about


I love rookies that come here and open there mouth.


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## xav10 (Sep 21, 2016)

I have been a soccer dad for many years at club and academy levels with kids. i have seen all kinds of reffing (and even cheating in Orange County). My middle kid is DA this season and I am happy to report that the reffing so far has been excellent. Not power-tripping, not whistle-happy, missed calls for both sides (as one would expect) without bias, knowledgeable and not above setting parents straight in a calm manner without being overly authoritarian. So far, so good!


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## baldref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Each game is 40 or 45 minutes buddy. Another bright one to the rescue.


Buddy? Haha

Halves are 40 minutes pal. Haha
Plus checking in teams plus filling out paperwork plus half time plus getting to the field early 

But you're the expert, pal.


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## SCS Fan (Sep 21, 2016)

When determining what the Refs get paid you have to factor in that Referees need to be at the game 30 minutes before kicks off, halftimes of 5 - 10 minutes and about 20 minutes between games when they finish game sheets and check in the next set of teams.   So, depending on the age and league the ARs make between $16 - $18 per hour and CRs make between $24 - $30 per hour.  You can find Referee fee schedules on most Soccer Referee Association websites - just Google it.


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## *GOBEARGO* (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> I love rookies that come here and open there mouth.


Baldref is a rookie? He's been on this board as long as I've been here and that's too long. Who are you? As far as you insinuating that refs are overpaid, trying add gas, time at the fields, commuting to education classes & games and ALL those huge $'s (insert sarcasm) are whittled away.

Look at no fan of some of these refs because of the things pointed out on this thread. But one thing I do know, without them, games wouldn't be played.


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## baldref (Sep 21, 2016)

SCS Fan said:


> When determining what the Refs get paid you have to factor in that Referees need to be at the game 30 minutes before kicks off, halftimes of 5 - 10 minutes and about 20 minutes between games when they finish game sheets and check in the next set of teams.   So, depending on the age and league the ARs make between $16 - $18 per hour and CRs make between $24 - $30 per hour.  You can find Referee fee schedules on most Soccer Referee Association websites - just Google it.


Someone who does know what they speak of


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

Jdiaz, you are by far, the brightest star on this forum!!  

It's unfortunate that a few of this blogs "critical thinkers" have turned this thread into a discussion about perceived hourly wages, when it was intended to be an introspective look at ourselves regarding sideline behavior and referee abuse.  Everybody who reads this has another opportunity this weekend to help stop abusive sideline behavior, wether it be your own or some other parents on your sideline.

The world is what we make it.  Our kids are living and playing in the world that we are making for them.  
What type of world will your kids be playing their soccer games in this weekend??


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## SCS Fan (Sep 21, 2016)

Parents will do well to understand that 1) Almost all referees are trying to do their very best; 2) The referees do not care who wins or loses; 3) Not every call will go your teams way; 4)Referees are human and will make mistakes; 5) if needed, take a few minutes during the week and Google a few soccer rules, this will help you better understand and enjoy the game.  Start with the "handball" rule.

I'm a referee and a parent of a player and I discovered years ago how enjoyable and relaxing it is to just watch a game with only words of encouragement "like will done" or "keep it up."

Lastly,  there are just barely enough referees to cover all the games on weekends.  Parents and coaches behaving poorly toward referees can lead to referees quitting which will lead to more shortages of referees and that likely will lead to the need to increase referee pay to attract more referees.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 21, 2016)

SCS Fan said:


> When determining what the Refs get paid you have to factor in that Referees need to be at the game 30 minutes before kicks off, halftimes of 5 - 10 minutes and about 20 minutes between games when they finish game sheets and check in the next set of teams. So, depending on the age and league the ARs make between $16 - $18 per hour and CRs make between $24 - $30 per hour. You can find Referee fee schedules on most Soccer Referee Association websites - just Google it.


100% Correct. There are some very ignorant statements being made about what referees earn per game. We are required to arrive no less than 30 minutes prior to the game. The 15 minutes between matches is barely enough to complete the paperwork from a prior game and check in the next game. If there there are additional reports to write or arguments about why a particular card isn't being returned or problems with player check-in that just about blows it. 1 hour 20 minutes per game +30 minutes is the absolute minimum time for an 11 v 11 league game in Presidio/SDDA .


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> I love rookies that come here and open there mouth.


This sounds like a "bully" mentality..

Is this your forum?  Is there some sort of blog rule that says "new members" cannot blog until they earn it? 
Seriously  jdiaz, what are you really going to do...get in a blog fight with a person who has a different opinion than yours.  Its another sad example of intimidation, on a thread that is supposed to be about collaboration, compassion and character.   Of course this may well be a reflection of your sideline behavior, so hopefully some of my "unicorns and light" optimism will rub off on you..

I wonder which "side" of the sideline you stand on...


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## Surfref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> U14 team ref fee is $64 a team in southern California development league
> So that's $128 game cash! Do the math 42.67 a ref. X3 games =  $128 for 3 hrs of work break it down smart one 42.67 hr.
> Minimum wage $11 hr. And take out taxes. Really buddy!!!


First of all your math and duration of games is way off.  U14 games are 70 minutes long with a 10 minute half time plus another 15-20 minutes before the start of the next game.  The time between games is work since we are doing post game paperwork, checking teams in, and doing a quick field check.  To make it easier let's round down the overall game time to 90 minutes of referee work for one U14 game.  So for 3 games that is 4 1/2 hours of work for the referee crew.  Plus, referees are required to be at the field at least 30 minutes early.  For a grand total of at least 5 hours of work. Now we are down to $24.80 an hour.  And, we have to pay taxes on that at the end of the year at roughly 12% for $2.98 per hour, so we are now at $21.82 an hour.  Plus the $3 per game assignment fee we owe the referee association, we are now down to $18.82.  Plus there are other expenditures that have to come out of that such as yearly referee fees to US Soccer and referee associations $200, two assessments per year $150, uniforms $280(this year so far), supplies, food and water, and incidentals.  We also do not get paid to attend the required (minimum) 8 monthly referee association meetings (90 minutes each) and 3 monthly referee Professional Development meetings (2 1/2 hours each).  The grand total ends up being roughly $11 to $15 an hour.  Dang, I will be a billionaire in no time. 

So before you go trying to convince everyone that referees make a ton of money, you should know what you are talking about and do the math correctly.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 21, 2016)

GunninGopher said:


> 100% Correct. There are some very ignorant statements being made about what referees earn per game. We are required to arrive no less than 30 minutes prior to the game. The 15 minutes between matches is barely enough to complete the paperwork from a prior game and check in the next game. If there there are additional reports to write or arguments about why a particular card isn't being returned or problems with player check-in that just about blows it. 1 hour 20 minutes per game +30 minutes is the absolute minimum time for an 11 v 11 league game in Presidio/SDDA .


I show up to work 30 minutes early.  I begin to do the paper work and organize my day so that I will be ready to work when the door opens at 630 am. 15 minute breaks that are mandated by law are barely enough time to complete paperwork from the time prior and prep for the rest of the day after. If there is any type of snafu during the day that doesn't necessarily "blow it" (I manage) but it makes the next few hours very difficult to recover. I do not believe the we are  here  belittling the work of being a ref , due to a lack of respect or some other motivation. There are a lot harder ways to make a buck. Not a bad way to be involved in a game you enjoy , get some exercise and exercise your alpha.
I do believe that the spectors of a youth soccer game sit too close to the sidelines. I had the guy beside me get a card for a comment ( fairly benign)  that he made to me and the ref thought it was directed at him. No other sport really sits that close , basket ball and baseball has "Spector bleachers", not putting the sector in such close proximity to the ref and making their responses muffled by the mass of proximity.  The spectors are not spread single file along the edge of the court so there is not isolation of comment from one direction. Thus , making the "ref" comments a little more isolated and personal.  You don't see the same problems when the games are at a bigger venue. (At least I haven't)
There are some very good refs that control a game in a way that is not controlling. there are some refs that do not have the physical or mental stamina to keep up with the game , there some refs out there that get paid either way. If you have a good ref if makes it very difficult to accept a ref that is "trying his / her best" or appears to be "calling it in". I would say that I have seen ref prejudice on the pitch toward one team or coach.  
Finally,  I think that as the kids get bigger. We all have to remember that  they are still kids . They think they are adults. They think what they are doing is controlled and part of the game, but they are not quit there yet. they don't know that. That where the ref comes in during the game and we as parents come in in life. We have all been there with work , athletics, or raising a family . I be sometimes being a ref feels a bit like corralling a bunch of cats.


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

Surfref said:


> First of all your math and duration of games is way off.  U14 games are 70 minutes long with a 10 minute half time plus another 15-20 minutes before the start of the next game.  The time between games is work since we are doing post game paperwork, checking teams in, and doing a quick field check.  To make it easier let's round down the overall game time to 90 minutes of referee work for one U14 game.  So for 3 games that is 4 1/2 hours of work for the referee crew.  Plus, referees are required to be at the field at least 30 minutes early.  For a grand total of at least 5 hours of work. Now we are down to $24.80 an hour.  And, we have to pay taxes on that at the end of the year at roughly 12% for $2.98 per hour, so we are now at $21.82 an hour.  Plus the $3 per game assignment fee we owe the referee association, we are now down to $18.82.  Plus there are other expenditures that have to come out of that such as yearly referee fees to US Soccer and referee associations $200, two assessments per year $150, uniforms $280(this year so far), supplies, food and water, and incidentals.  We also do not get paid to attend the required (minimum) 8 monthly referee association meetings (90 minutes each) and 3 monthly referee Professional Development meetings (2 1/2 hours each).  The grand total ends up being roughly $11 to $15 an hour.  Dang, I will be a billionaire in no time.
> 
> So before you go trying to convince everyone that referees make a ton of money, you should know what you are talking about and do the math correctly.


It's cash money you don't report it. Nice try. My nephews are refs too. When the kids are at halftime your on a break.  Paperwork takes about 10 minutes for 3 games . 1/2 hr you have to be there ok. But remember ref are getting ready . That mean change your shirts  and put your shoes. And it take you 5 minuts to check in a team. And 2 minuts to check the balls.and 1 min. To flip a coin. son that is 14 yrs old is taking the ref class.


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## Surfref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> For the very bright ones! What you should be asking. Why isn't there a review board doing evaluations on referees.   That way they can be corrected on their bad calls in a game. Also make sure the can physically run up and down the field and etc. I have asked many times this question and the answer is no there isn't.  In Mexico , South America, and Europe there is a evaluation on referees.  There is some good referees and there's bad ones too.....


I do get assessed (evaluated) in two 90 minute higher level youth or adult games a year.  I receive unannounced assessments during high school games.  Believe it or not, bad referees do get reported by parents, coaches, players and other referees. Assigners also will put more senior referees on games with new referees and problem referees, and ask for a feedback on their performance.  Back in August I had one of my LA area assigners ask me to evaluate a referee I was working with that had racked up a good number of complaints.  That referee had some serious problems with the way he refereed and the assigner said the referee would only be doing U11 and below games and would receive some mentorship.  Many assigners still referee and will schedule themselves with new or problem referees to gauge their ability.  Assessors and assigners are at most of the summer tournaments and do watch and evaluate the referee and provide them feedback.

About two weeks ago I discussed with one of my assigners the poor performance of a referee that I worked with and the advice that he should not work games above U12.  The problem with most complaints from parents and some coaches is that they complain about judgment calls, which are basically ignored.  The complaints that are taken seriously are the ones concerning a misapplication of the LOTG such as awarding a PK for a keeper possessing the ball longer than 6 seconds instead of an indirect free kick (last misapplication of the LOTG).  And, most complaints do not include some form of evidence such as a video clip (full game video is preferred over just a clip). Every referee association and CalSouth do have a group or person that looks into complaints and incidents involving referees.


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## Surfref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> It's cash money you don't report it. Nice try. My nephews are refs too. When the kids are at halftime your on a break.  Paperwork takes about 10 minutes for 3 games . 1/2 hr you have to be there ok. But remember ref are getting ready . That mean change your shirts  and put your shoes. And it take you 5 minuts to check in a team. And 2 minuts to check the balls.and 1 min. To flip a coin. son that is 14 yrs old is taking the ref class.


Let's start with the taxes.  So what happens when the IRS comes calling for an audit.  Do you really thing they will believe you when you say, "It's cash money you don't report it."  All they will care about is that you didn't report the income and how much of a penalty they are going to charge you.  I have been audited and the auditor had money listed that I did not receive a 1099 for but had claimed.  The auditor said I claimed about $500 more than what was reported to the IRS which was fine.  The auditor took my spreadsheet, told me I was not in trouble and said he would be looking into why the two clubs did not report the income. Cal South, referee associations and clubs are required to report all money paid to referees.  These clubs must account for every penny in and out, so the good ones keep track of who (referees) they pay.  I know two referees that got substantial penalties for failing to report income from referee work which is just dumb on their part.  There are a tone of write-offs a referees can claim to reduce the income level of their referee income.  As for your nephews, if they do not make above the minimum income level there is no reason to claim the income.  But, if they make above that minimum than they need to claim it.

You forgot a few things or maybe your nephews just forgot to tell you.  Sure we are hydrating and recharging the batteries at halftime, but if that is all that is going on than the referees your nephews are working with are not good referees.  There should also be a debrief between the referees discussing what went well and what did not go so well, discussion about different players, styles of play and things to look out for in the second half.  Prior to the game there should be a 5-10 minute pregame talk (my pregame for the first game are always at least 10 minutes).  I tell any youth referees I work with that they need to tell me at halftime and post game 3 things good and bad that we as a referee team did.  This helps not only the youth referees but also helps the more senior referees. 

You also forgot the pregame field, goals, ball, sidelines inspection.  The last thing I want is for a goal to fall over on a player, have the spectators too close and a kid lose a tooth when they hit a chair or bench.  It does take more than 2 minutes to do all of this.

Along with everything else before the game, referees also need time to warm up and stretch before the first game which takes at least 10 minutes.  I always try to arrive at the field 45-60 minutes early so I have plenty of time to complete all of the pre-game duties at my pace.

Post game paperwork takes between 5-10 minutes per game depending on how much paperwork is required. The biggest delay in paperwork is having to wait for either the manager or coach to come and sign and collect their cards.  If there is a RED card than there is extra paperwork that can take another 5-10 minutes.


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## baldref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> It's cash money you don't report it. Nice try. My nephews are refs too. When the kids are at halftime your on a break.  Paperwork takes about 10 minutes for 3 games . 1/2 hr you have to be there ok. But remember ref are getting ready . That mean change your shirts  and put your shoes. And it take you 5 minuts to check in a team. And 2 minuts to check the balls.and 1 min. To flip a coin. son that is 14 yrs old is taking the ref class.


once again, an uninformed statement of falsehood. the clubs have paysheets and they 1099 referees. if halftime is ten minutes and we're on a "break", does that mean that mean we get that ten minutes back after we arrive home? maybe you could actually say one thing correct that you know as fact. no, probably not......

but the point really is, it doesn't matter if the referees are making $50 an hour. if the leagues and tournaments tell us to not allow abuse from parents or coaches, then our job is to not allow abuse from parents and coaches. do people go to your work and tell you how to make a big mac? tell you the special sauce goes on after the lettuce? of course not....


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

You just have to be firm and respectful.  If the parents don't understand.  Then you send them on their way to the car.what parents don't understand that in the end parent gets sent away. And the coach misses the next game . Thanks to the parents on his own team.


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## SCS Fan (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz, the referee associations maintain 1099 forms for game assignments that they send to the IRS and to the Referees.  Please don't assume that others share your level of integrity when completing their taxes.  The 30 minutes before games is spent checking the field, checking teams in, reviewing the rules for the related competition and discussing means of the ARs and the CR working together as a team.  This all might sound trivial to spectators but it is valuable preparation time that helps us run the games.  Even if you don't think it's work it is still time I'm away from my family. 

I wouldn't referee unless I got paid but it certainly isn't the reason I do it.  My reasons are many - in no particular order: I like the connection to the game, I like giving back to the game, I like being off the couch (exercising) and being outside, I like to challenge myself to do the best job I can, I pride myself on not agitating and trying to calm down coaches that get too caught in the game and say things they regret later, I like thinking about calls when I'm off the pitch and what I can do better, I like studying the rules online and watching games on TV where I try to make the calls along with the ref on TV.  So, to me its enjoyable and good exercise, but it is time away from my family so the fee I get paid is about right but by no means is the reason I'm out there.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> You just have to be firm and respectful.  If the parents don't understand.  Then you send them on their way to the car.what parents don't understand that in the end parent gets sent away. And the coach misses the next game . Thanks to the parents on his own team.


Jdiaz....you have all the answers...you may be the Anti-Christ...


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## Striker17 (Sep 21, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Jdiaz....you have all the answers...you may be the Anti-Christ...


I have this great calming technique you can use. You count to 1000 and roll your head back and forth and then recite some Creed lyrics. It helps center me.


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## Striker17 (Sep 21, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> This sounds like a "bully" mentality..
> 
> Is this your forum?  Is there some sort of blog rule that says "new members" cannot blog until they earn it?
> Seriously  jdiaz, what are you really going to do...get in a blog fight with a person who has a different opinion than yours.  Its another sad example of intimidation, on a thread that is supposed to be about collaboration, compassion and character.   Of course this may well be a reflection of your sideline behavior, so hopefully some of my "unicorns and light" optimism will rub off on you..
> ...



But by goodness when they differ from your opinion call them the anti Christ. Bless your heart


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> I have this great calming technique you can use. You count to 1000 and roll your head back and forth and then recite some Creed lyrics. It helps center me.


Don't sleep on Creed...  great song writing and music!

When dreaming I'm guided to another world 
Time and time again 
At sunrise I fight to stay asleep 
'Cause I don't want to leave the comfort of this place
'Cause there's a hunger, a longing to escape 
From the life I live when I'm awake 
So let's go there 
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay? 

Can you take me Higher?
To a place where blind men see 
Can you take me Higher? 
To a place with golden streets

Although I would like our world to change 
It helps me to appreciate 
Those nights and those dreams
But, my friend, I'd sacrifice all those nights 
If I could make the Earth and my dreams the same 
The only difference is 
To let love replace all our hate 
So let's go there 
Let's make our escape 
Come on, let's go there 
Let's ask can we stay? 

Can you take me Higher?
To a place where blind men see 
Can you take me Higher? 
To a place with golden streets

So lets go there, lets go there,
Come on, lets go there
Lets ask can we stay?

Up high I feel like I'm alive for the very first time
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine 
Set up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine 

Can you take me Higher?
To a place where blind men see 
Can you take me Higher? 
To a place with golden streets

Can you take me Higher?
To a place where blind men see 
Can you take me Higher? 
To a place with golden streets


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## Striker17 (Sep 21, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Don't sleep on Creed...  great song writing and music!
> 
> When dreaming I'm guided to another world
> Time and time again
> ...


I thought you would go for Arms Wide Open. I like it...nice choice! Don't tell me that a little sideline music wouldn't help break up some intensity!


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

It's by choice that you choose to ref and not be with your families.  Because you want to make extra money. Please don't use the I'm taking time away from my family. If you had to do it for free would you still do it. I have nothing against people making extra money but when you the I'm taking time away from my family. Doesn't work here. High school soccer that reviews is totally different than calsouth. Calsouth should have a referee that is in charge of reviewing games and how did the referee did. They don't have it. Like I said they're good refs and bad refs. In the end you wouldn't do it for free.  And that's the plain truth.


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> I have this great calming technique you can use. You count to 1000 and roll your head back and forth and then recite some Creed lyrics. It helps center me.


That's funny.


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## Striker17 (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> That's funny.


He's turning into MessiFTW he has found the Dumb button. I love the dumb button! It's the best!


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## baldref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> It's by choice that you choose to ref and not be with your families.  Because you want to make extra money. Please don't use the I'm taking time away from my family. If you had to do it for free would you still do it. I have nothing against people making extra money but when you the I'm taking time away from my family. Doesn't work here. High school soccer that reviews is totally different than calsouth. Calsouth should have a referee that is in charge of reviewing games and how did the referee did. They don't have it. Like I said they're good refs and bad refs. In the end you wouldn't do it for free.  And that's the plain truth.


wrong again. aren't you tired of being wrong with every single post? i would do it for free. have done it for free. i do it because i love doing, am good at it, and there's no better place to watch a game than in the middle of it. and it's your choice to flip burgers too. anyway, i'm bored pointing out that you're just not up to speed.


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## socalkdg (Sep 21, 2016)

I'll admit I've volunteered to AR some of the AYSO games in our region just for an easy excuse to watch some soccer.     Working on how to get to Silverlakes Sunday so I can watch some Flight 1 2005 girls games.


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## Surfref (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> It's by choice that you choose to ref and not be with your families.  Because you want to make extra money. Please don't use the I'm taking time away from my family. If you had to do it for free would you still do it. I have nothing against people making extra money but when you the I'm taking time away from my family. Doesn't work here. High school soccer that reviews is totally different than calsouth. Calsouth should have a referee that is in charge of reviewing games and how did the referee did. They don't have it. Like I said they're good refs and bad refs. In the end you wouldn't do it for free.  And that's the plain truth.


I primarily referee because I really enjoy it, the extra income is just an added perk.  Oh, but I do referee for free.  Worked the Breast Cancer tournament last summer and gave all my fees to the Breast Cancer organization that sponsored the tournament.  I also work AYSO games which I do not get paid for.  I see Baldref out there refereeing AYSO for free also.  You won't hear me complaining about being away from my family.  If I was not refereeing my shopaholic wife would try to drag me shopping with her.  That is why I have a good number of hobbies; surfing, hiking, running, hunting, target shooting, and woodwork. 

If you are not happy with your kids referee than send an email to the referee's association along with a link to the You Tube or Vimeo video that backs up your claims.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 21, 2016)

The issue is as I see it is a lack of consistency among refs across the board.  My dd has played in all three leagues in SoCal each has different standards when it comes to physical play and how refs respond to parents.  I have. Seen refs confront the parents before the game even started telling them to stay quiet or they would get kicked out and I have seen some refs allow what amounted to a street fight take place with no cards and few fouls.  I am not sure how the assignment process woks but perhaps assigning refs to only one league or one field would help.  What one person perceives as "abuse " other refs just let go and expect as passion for the game and emotion for team.  What is see as an issue is the difference between a fan and a parent.  As the sport progresses, fans increase, and how does a ref hold a fan to the same standard as a parent, let alone a coach.  Being a ref is a thankless job but one that some obviously enjoy.   Honestly don't even really like soccer  to much drama. so I m glad I am almost done as my dd is about to go off to college


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I primarily referee because I really enjoy it, the extra income is just an added perk.  Oh, but I do referee for free.  Worked the Breast Cancer tournament last summer and gave all my fees to the Breast Cancer organization that sponsored the tournament.  I also work AYSO games which I do not get paid for.  I see Baldref out there refereeing AYSO for free also.  You won't hear me complaining about being away from my family.  If I was not refereeing my shopaholic wife would try to drag me shopping with her.  That is why I have a good number of hobbies; surfing, hiking, running, hunting, target shooting, and woodwork.
> 
> If you are not happy with your kids referee than send an email to the referee's association along with a link to the You Tube or Vimeo video that backs up your claims.


Thank you for what you do. Alot of people do it for all the wrong reasons. I hope I didn't offend you. If I did I'm very sorry. And again thank you for what you do my respect to you and your family understanding why you do it.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Thank you for what you do. Alot of people do it for all the wrong reasons. I hope I didn't offend you. If I did I'm very sorry. And again thank you for what you do my respect to you and your family understanding why you do it.


Wow!!  Jdiaz!!  My man!!!   I can see you now on the sidelines as cool as the other side of the pillow!!   Could this be the start of a new, kinder gentler you...I hope so.   

Can you imagine if everybody had this kind of respect for refs every weekend!!   
If the only thing that comes out of this thread is jdiaz becoming a better role model for sideline behavior...then I will be a happy man...
And if you can spread your new found respect to other parents...well then we would really have something now wouldn't we...good job jdiaz!!


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## Sentient Being (Sep 21, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Thank you for what you do. Alot of people do it for all the wrong reasons. I hope I didn't offend you. If I did I'm very sorry. And again thank you for what you do my respect to you and your family understanding why you do it.


Although, I don't understand what all the "wrong reasons" people ref for are??!??... you got me scratching my head on that one...


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## jdiaz (Sep 21, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Although, I don't understand what all the "wrong reasons" people ref for are??!??... you got me scratching my head on that one...


I love that your a instigator.  This is where it ends.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 22, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> The guy at Subway doesn't get a free pass because he's behind a counter all day.


I meant to bring this up the other day.  

The guy who actually makes my sandwiches at Subway does get a free pass from me!  He works his ass off, especially during the summer when everybody is at his shop on 28th and Balboa Blvd in Newport Beach.  His name is Casey and he is one of the original members of Social Distortion!  His band D.I. Is still playing and he has about 5 albums available on iTunes.  If you get a chance, stop by and say hello, he's a great guy and makes a pretty mean meatball special!

Check out D.I.'s - OC Life off of Ancient Artifacts...


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## jdiaz (Sep 22, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> I meant to bring this up the other day.
> 
> The guy who actually makes my sandwiches at Subway does get a free pass from me!  He works his ass off, especially during the summer when everybody is at his shop on 28th and Balboa Blvd in Newport Beach.  His name is Casey and he is one of the original members of Social Distortion!  His band D.I. Is still playing and he has about 5 albums available on iTunes.  If you get a chance, stop by and say hello, he's a great guy and makes a pretty mean meatball special!
> 
> Check out D.I.'s - OC Life off of Ancient Artifacts...


Really social distortion!!!


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## Sentient Being (Sep 22, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Really social distortion!!!


The Real Social D...  google it..he's on there!! And you would know exactly who it is behind the counter...he definitely looks the part!!


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## Socal United (Sep 23, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Wow!!  Jdiaz!!  My man!!!   I can see you now on the sidelines as cool as the other side of the pillow!!   Could this be the start of a new, kinder gentler you...I hope so.
> 
> Can you imagine if everybody had this kind of respect for refs every weekend!!
> If the only thing that comes out of this thread is jdiaz becoming a better role model for sideline behavior...then I will be a happy man...
> And if you can spread your new found respect to other parents...well then we would really have something now wouldn't we...good job jdiaz!!


My son has played with jdiaz's son, you are barking up the wrong tree if you are looking for someone that gets on the refs.  I think you are taking feelings about refs said here and assuming that it means they are on the sidelines lighting up the refs.  Couldn't be further from the truth, this is just one example.  As for doing it for the wrong reasons, have had multiple refs say to my face that they do it for the easy money.  While I think it is far from easy, the pay per hour is pretty good in relation to a lot of other jobs, you more or less work when you can, and there is little to no worry about the job that you do.  I know we have surfref at a lot of our local tournaments overseeing refs, especially at 4S, but outside of that I see it little.  No accountability is a dangerous thing.


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## jdiaz (Sep 24, 2016)

Their are good refs and refs . Good calls vs bad calls.  What I want is a review board for theses refs to have a standard.  You have calsouth in Thier golf carts observing the parents but what about the refs. I know refs don't like hear it but come on. Their needs to be system.


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## Lion Eyes (Sep 24, 2016)

Well....
A couple of thoughts....
We all know that not all calls go our way,  play well enough that a bad call will not change the outcome of the game.
At the end of the day...
_Ob-la-di ob-la-da, life goes on bra
La la how the life goes on_


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

Lion Eyes said:


> play well enough that a bad call will not change the outcome of the game.


What nonsense.  One of the objectives of most gaming leagues and tournaments to set up brackets consisting of teams of similar ability.   The most interesting contests are those between teams of similar strength, where it is not possible for either team to "play well enough" to overcome one or two bad calls.


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## Lion Eyes (Sep 24, 2016)

espola said:


> What nonsense.  One of the objectives of most gaming leagues and tournaments to set up brackets consisting of teams of similar ability.   The most interesting contests are those between teams of similar strength, where it is not possible for either team to "play well enough" to overcome one or two bad calls.


Nonsense perhaps to you MAgoo...but that's what my dd's club coach told his team, that's what they did.
They won four US  National Championships....three Surf Cups in a row and on and on....
Play good soccer....


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

Lion Eyes said:


> Nonsense perhaps to you MAgoo...but that's what my dd's club coach told his team, that's what they did.
> They won four US  National Championships....three Surf Cups in a row and on and on....
> Play good soccer....


Those are good words for a pep talk, but little else.  

If you are truly good enough so that you always play a bad call or two better than your opponents, you don't need the pep talk.


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## Lion Eyes (Sep 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Those are good words for a pep talk, but little else.
> 
> If you are truly good enough so that you always play a bad call or two better than your opponents, you don't need the pep talk.


Little else? Really?
How many National Championships under your belt MAgoo? Surf Cups?
Pep talk or great coaching?
Some of both?
Blaming the ref for poor performance is just another easy excuse.
"We woulda won except the ref robbed us." Bla bla bla.
Control what you can, play the game and realize the ref is a part of the game you can't control.
Stop looking for excuses.....play good soccer. Three super group championships in a row tend to prove the point...hell of a pep talk.


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## baldref (Sep 24, 2016)

Lion Eyes said:


> Little else? Really?
> How many National Championships under your belt MAgoo? Surf Cups?
> Pep talk or great coaching?
> Some of both?
> ...


Winning philosophy as opposed to lame excuse philosophy 
Some people need excuses
Some don't


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

Lion Eyes said:


> Little else? Really?
> How many National Championships under your belt MAgoo? Surf Cups?
> Pep talk or great coaching?
> Some of both?
> ...


Did he ask them to deliver 110% also?

How did this come down to blaming the ref?


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## wildcat66 (Sep 24, 2016)

The fact that the refs that frequent this site get so defensive and are so quick try and deflect any bit of criticism proves the point that many on here are trying to get across.  Every time someone on here questions anything a ref does there is a little clique of refs that all jump in and immediately start posting counter points like you insulted there mother or something.  This same dynamic is what many of us think is a problem.   Somebody's mom yells, "come on ref!"  or "no way" or "you need to call that"   etc and a alarm goes in there head, red star clusters fill the sky and they stop the game, (the same game that they say needs to flow so they don't make some calls) come over to the sideline, caution the coach or in many cases confront the perpetrator and exercise the authority given to them by the league, tournament or soccer god to nip the "abuse" in the bud.  simply because some spectator questioned their  call or lack of call. Don't you guys see what the complaint is?  I know I just dont get it.......


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## Sentient Being (Sep 24, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The fact that the refs that frequent this site get so defensive and are so quick try and deflect any bit of criticism proves the point that many on here are trying to get across.  Every time someone on here questions anything a ref does there is a little clique of refs that all jump in and immediately start posting counter points like you insulted there mother or something.  This same dynamic is what many of us think is a problem.   Somebody's mom yells, "come on ref!"  or "no way" or "you need to call that"   etc and a alarm goes in there head, red star clusters fill the sky and they stop the game, (the same game that they say needs to flow so they don't make some calls) come over to the sideline, caution the coach or in many cases confront the perpetrator and exercise the authority given to them by the league, tournament or soccer god to nip the "abuse" in the bud.  simply because some spectator questioned their  call or lack of call. Don't you guys see what the complaint is?  I know I just dont get it.......


You definitely don't get it!


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## wildcat66 (Sep 24, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> You definitely don't get it!


Perhaps more soothing music, lavender scented mist and calm reasonable lamentation would awaken my understanding right.....


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## jdiaz (Sep 24, 2016)

I like that the referee's on the blog don't have a direct answer for my question!


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## Sentient Being (Sep 24, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Perhaps more soothing music, lavender scented mist and calm reasonable lamentation would awaken my understanding right.....


Maybe it could work, everybody deserves a chance to change. 
But I have a feeling your just one of those guys who hates the world.  Things are going so bad for you that you look for any chance to lash out at others for the problems in your life.  You prey on easy targets such as refs in children's forums.   There really are not any "real" authority figures to stop you from acting out your anger.  Your surrounded by your kids teammates parents who are a sympathetic audience, which is what you crave.  No one from the other team is going to stop because your only hurting your team and frankly, your not really worth anybody's time to get into it with you anyway.  Your part of that adolescent group of manboys that unfortunately turn out every weekend all across fields in Socal!
Hopefully this thread and dialogue may have helped some people to recognize their needs to be a change in sideline abuse towards refs.  I'm trying to step up and make a change for the better..but I'm sure there are plenty of guys like you who think it's your right to lash out on weekends because your a sheep in real life.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 24, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Maybe it could work, everybody deserves a chance to change.
> But I have a feeling your just one of those guys who hates the world.  Things are going so bad for you that you look for any chance to lash out at others for the problems in your life.  You prey on easy targets such as refs in children's forums.   There really are not any "real" authority figures to stop you from acting out your anger.  Your surrounded by your kids teammates parents who are a sympathetic audience, which is what you crave.  No one from the other team is going to stop because your only hurting your team and frankly, your not really worth anybody's time to get into it with you anyway.  Your part of that adolescent group of manboys that unfortunately turn out every weekend all across fields in Socal!
> Hopefully this thread and dialogue may have helped some people to recognize their needs to be a change in sideline abuse towards refs.  I'm trying to step up and make a change for the better..but I'm sure there are plenty of guys like you who think it's your right to lash out on weekends because your a sheep in real life.


  More like a sheep dog in real life, some would say protecting the sheep from the wolves.  Perhaps that is the problem that I have.  I have been yelled at, spit on, had rotten stuff thrown at me and  a few other things best left unsaid done to me.  Did I take it personal? Did I feel I had to educate the masses in being better humans?  Nope just did my job in a professional manner and let the little stuff roll off my back as it didn't  really matter anyway.  As I have said in here,  I rarely say anything at a game to anyone, let alone abuse the refs.  I just think they need to be a little more thick skinned and let some of the crowd noise be just that, noise.   I think they do a decent job for the most part.  I try to base my opinions on my personal observations and logic taking emotion and rhetorical banter out of it.   I wonder if the ref would be more inclined to not stop the game if the next time somebody yelled "come on ref" that instead they said, "excuse me, Mr Official, I believe your decision to call that player offside may have been incorrect.   It seems that you were not in a good position to see the players, but don't fret, as you become more experienced you will do better next time."


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> More like a sheep dog in real life, some would say protecting the sheep from the wolves.  Perhaps that is the problem that I have.  I have been yelled at, spit on, had rotten stuff thrown at me and  a few other things best left unsaid done to me.  Did I take it personal? Did I feel I had to educate the masses in being better humans?  Nope just did my job in a professional manner and let the little stuff roll off my back as it didn't  really matter anyway.  As I have said in here,  I rarely say anything at a game to anyone, let alone abuse the refs.  I just think they need to be a little more thick skinned and let some of the crowd noise be just that, noise.   I think they do a decent job for the most part.  I try to base my opinions on my personal observations and logic taking emotion and rhetorical banter out of it.   I wonder if the ref would be more inclined to not stop the game if the next time somebody yelled "come on ref" that instead they said, "excuse me, Mr Official, I believe your decision to call that player offside may have been incorrect.   It seems that you were not in a good position to see the players, but don't fret, as you become more experienced you will do better next time."


Things I said that got me sent from the field --

"If you are not going to call fouls like that, you should tell the players before the game"

"There is no offside if there is no pass"

And this one -- "There's no such rule" -- got me a stare and a finger wave, but I won $5 later when I bet a different ref about it.


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## Sentient Being (Sep 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Things I said that got me sent from the field --
> 
> "If you are not going to call fouls like that, you should tell the players before the game"
> 
> ...


Wildcat and espola,  I doubt any ref would stop a game for somebody CALMLY saying those objections during a match..1 time.  But we all know that what we are talking about here is the abusive behavior when those comments are made nonstop by a parent standing over the touch line yelling at the top of their lungs in a threatening manner going bezerk!


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## wildcat66 (Sep 24, 2016)

My wife got cautioned once at halftime because the lady behind her was yelling at a different game...she told the ref, "But i didnt say anything."  He told her, "If I have to caution you again I am going to have to ask you to leave."  We all got a big laugh out of it but it showed just how observant and clueless he was.  Once again, I think refs do a good job most of the time.....


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Wildcat and espola,  I doubt any ref would stop a game for somebody CALMLY saying those objections during a match..1 time.  But we all know that what we are talking about here is the abusive behavior when those comments are made nonstop by a parent standing over the touch line yelling at the top of their lungs in a threatening manner going bezerk!


The first one I didn't have to shout - the referee was less than 10 yards from me watching while the coach looked after the injured player on the field.  I was lying on a blanket in the shade under the bushes alongside the field cooling off after my son's game.  After the referee asked me to leave, the coach said "I agree with him", so the ref made him leave also.  Since then the coach and I have had a beautiful friendship.

The last one was at a high school game, where the referee (a well-known local ref famous or his quirky calls) called a foul throwin and gave the ball to the other team because of some technicality.   I said "there's no such rule" more in humor than anger - he pointed his finger at me and said "No more from you".  Since he does a lot of high school games where I am the PA announcer, I have come to know him very well over the years - I know to call him Dr. and how to pronounce his name properly.  I guess when he was younger (as in the 1960's). he was a teenage defender for his national team and eventually played in the Olympics.  

He is still reffing in his 70's, and everybody knows him - which is how I got the $5.  I was a field marshal at a tournament the following year, and I told this story to one of the referees waiting for his next game.  We made a bet on whether the Dr's call was legit, he looked it up in his rulebook, and then paid me the $5.


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## espola (Sep 24, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> My wife got cautioned once at halftime because the lady behind her was yelling at a different game...she told the ref, "But i didnt say anything."  He told her, "If I have to caution you again I am going to have to ask you to leave."  We all got a big laugh out of it but it showed just how observant and clueless he was.  Once again, I think refs do a good job most of the time.....


In 2008, both my sons were playing on the same team in National Cup in Lancaster.  All the parents were loud and enthusiastic, but one (a lawyer and CPA by trade) was especially caustic.  After one loud comment, the referee called over the AR working our side and talked to him for a few minutes, while both of them were pointing in our general direction.  The lawyer figured out what was happening, so he turned his chair around so it looked like he was watching the game on the next field east.  When the referee eventually came over to our sideline, he selected a different parent and ejected him.  That night we all had reasons to buy beers for our ejected friend in the hotel bar.


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## Socal United (Sep 24, 2016)

Sentient Being=JAP???  Just more time on his hands, so he can write more than one sentence?


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## Lion Eyes (Sep 26, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Wildcat and espola,  I doubt any ref would stop a game for somebody CALMLY saying those objections during a match..1 time.  But we all know that what we are talking about here is the abusive behavior when those comments are made nonstop by a parent standing over the touch line yelling at the top of their lungs in a threatening manner going bezerk!


I don't doubt it...
Playing in the Slammers tournament a few years back the game was progressing.
Nothing unusual about our sideline banter...
Us parents were talking and laughing about who knows what, when the ref trots by and the sideline was laughing our collective butts off.
The ref apparently didn't appreciate laughter as he proceeded to kick one of our fathers off the field, laughing with to much gusto?
The dad left the field to the parking lot...changed his shirt, put on a straw hat and a pair of sunners, wondered back over & proceeded to watch the game.
The father that was asked to leave was probably the least vocal parent on the sidelines.


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## espola (Sep 26, 2016)

Lion Eyes said:


> I don't doubt it...
> Playing in the Slammers tournament a few years back the game was progressing.
> Nothing unusual about our sideline banter...
> Us parents were talking and laughing about who knows what, when the ref trots by and the sideline was laughing our collective butts off.
> ...


We were in the last bracket game of a weekend tournament in Orange County, and were killing the other undefeated team in our bracket, so it was obvious we would be going to the final that afternoon.   After one nasty collision early in the second half, our coach said something in Spanish that I didn't catch.  The referee, a young apparently-Hispanic woman, came over to him and said several things that started with "You think I don't speak Spanish?" in English, and the rest in Spanish fast enough that I couldn't follow.  After she left, he turned to the parents nearby and said "The last time a woman spoke to me like that, I liked it. Not this time".   She heard only the laughter and gave the evil eye.

A short time later a ball went out right in front of our parents, and as both teams lined up for our throwin, she awarded the ball the other way.  Our coach turned toward our parents and said (in English) "they can't even get that right".  The referee walked up to him and said "I don't want to eject you because you would miss the final.  I won't do it if you leave voluntarily."  That left me as the replacement coach for the remainder of the game, with the coach phoning parents to pass on his substitution recommendations.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Their are good refs and refs . Good calls vs bad calls.  What I want is a review board for theses refs to have a standard.  You have calsouth in Thier golf carts observing the parents but what about the refs. I know refs don't like hear it but come on. Their needs to be system.


They also watch the refs from those golf carts.  The referee coordinator at Manchester Cup, Surf Cup, Blues Cup had two golf carts at their disposal.  Most of the time LP was out watching referees and the other cart was used to get refs to fields quickly and drive around and watch the refs.


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## jdiaz (Sep 26, 2016)

Surfref said:


> They also watch the refs from those golf carts.  The referee coordinator at Manchester Cup, Surf Cup, Blues Cup had two golf carts at their disposal.  Most of the time LP was out watching referees and the other cart was used to get refs to fields quickly and drive around and watch the refs.


You must be a ref. MC had so.e really bad refs.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Perhaps more soothing music, lavender scented mist and calm reasonable lamentation would awaken my understanding right.....


I am all for listening to some Zep, Santana, John Lee Hooker or Buddy Guy while refereeing with headphones so I don't hear anything.  That is how I watch my DD game usually while listening to one of those 4 artists.  Just get in the zone.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> You must be a ref. MC had so.e really bad refs.


Basically the same refs at MC, Surf Cup and Blues Cup.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> I like that the referee's on the blog don't have a direct answer for my question!


What question was that?


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## baldref (Sep 26, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Basically the same refs at MC, Surf Cup and Blues Cup.


We're baaaaaad
We're nation wide


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## baldref (Sep 26, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> You must be a ref. MC had so.e really bad refs.


You must be a ref, SURFREF


Just consider the source before you engage a genius like this one
Haha


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## jdiaz (Sep 26, 2016)

Sorry just a little tired.


Surfref said:


> What question was that?


Like I said.


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## socalkdg (Sep 26, 2016)

We had some pretty good refs this past weekend.  First game nothing out of the ordinary at all, second game on Sunday the kids were bumping each other.  Our team isn't a physical team as it has never been taught and they just came from AYSO Extra, where very little bumping goes on, but it seemed like every time two kids would bump, the other team's kid would fall and start wailing.  The other coach started going off on the referees for not yellow carding.  Plus they were getting most of the free kicks.  This didn't stop for the whole game.  We lost a couple kids to injurys, but they hobbled off the field instead of laying on the field.   Then a couple of our kids got elbows to the face, including one that drew a yellow card from the other team.  Of course this drew our coaches into the yelling match about clean play.  Referees didn't bow to either team and the game seemed really fair.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Sorry just a little tired.
> 
> Like I said.


Would that be the question I answered last Wednesday at 3:17pm?  You may have even liked it. You asked if I would still referee if I had to do it for free.  I said yes and gave you two examples.  I have also been a mentor for a youth referee from one of my LA associations, which I did that for free.  I would give him my game fees from when I worked as an AR.  This helped him to buy all five colors of ref shirts and a good pair of running shoes.  If I am missing an AR and have to use a club linesman, a spectator, to call the ball in or out, I pay them out of my pocket.  If it is a kid, I usually give them $20 - $25.  Most adults will not take the cash.


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## in the net (Sep 29, 2016)

After a game this last Sunday. The center and AR.  (Had the same last name so guessingbrother 
Walking to their car one of the coaches said thanks guys you did a great job I really appreciate it BUT you know I have to give you a hard time...it's my job.  And my parents expect it

Really how stupid....this is why we lose some of the good young ones.  FYI I thought they did a fine job...from what I saw why treat em bad during the game if you think they are doing well

A few weeks ago we watched a boys game. 15-17 yrs I would bet. Many were driving away.
The center was amazing.  He was within close relation to all plays and the ball.  He must have run 20 miles.   And those boys are fast....both myself and my wife went out and shook his hand. He earned his money and needed to know it.  He was a bit surprised but was appreciative.  

So here is my note on this.  When you see or get a referee that is spot on be it center or AR. Let them know
They get beat up all the time. 

BTW. The boys answer to that coach was.    We get paid to do our job...if yelling at us is what you think you get paid for you earned your money too...have a great day and rest if the season.  
I walked by laughing more about how nice they were and honest ..kids today normally are not that 
Composed.  Thought they would keep walking and call him a JA


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## Surfref (Sep 29, 2016)

in the net said:


> After a game this last Sunday. The center and AR.  (Had the same last name so guessingbrother
> Walking to their car one of the coaches said thanks guys you did a great job I really appreciate it BUT you know I have to give you a hard time...it's my job.  And my parents expect it
> 
> Really how stupid....this is why we lose some of the good young ones.  FYI I thought they did a fine job...from what I saw why treat em bad during the game if you think they are doing well
> ...


I have had coaches tell me that.  I have usually just said, "Thank you" and keep doing what I was doing.  I do like the way the two referees responded.  Hopefully that coach will think twice before yelling at the referees again.


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## outside! (Sep 29, 2016)

My 13 year old son just started reffing this year. This past weekend was his first U8 competitive game after reffing about a half a dozen U6 rec games. While he is still not a grade 8, they were so desperate for refs that they used him anyway. When he showed up to the game, there was only one AR who was about the same age as my son. The two teams (Albion and Express) actually impressed me with how well they played a heads up passing game. Express had a few more coordinated kids and dominated the game. Even though his team was dominating the game, the Express coach felt some need to question many calls and non-calls, all though he was otherwise a very positive coach with his team. To his credit the Albion coach never questioned the refs and also did a good job coaching his team. Remember, this is U8 soccer. Why on earth did the Express coach even need to talk to the refs? As I said, they were desperate for refs that day. Coaches like the Express coach are part of the reason why. And for the record, I kept my mouth shut.


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## baldref (Sep 29, 2016)

outside! said:


> My 13 year old son just started reffing this year. This past weekend was his first U8 competitive game after reffing about a half a dozen U6 rec games. While he is still not a grade 8, they were so desperate for refs that they used him anyway. When he showed up to the game, there was only one AR who was about the same age as my son. The two teams (Albion and Express) actually impressed me with how well they played a heads up passing game. Express had a few more coordinated kids and dominated the game. Even though his team was dominating the game, the Express coach felt some need to question many calls and non-calls, all though he was otherwise a very positive coach with his team. To his credit the Albion coach never questioned the refs and also did a good job coaching his team. Remember, this is U8 soccer. Why on earth did the Express coach even need to talk to the refs? As I said, they were desperate for refs that day. Coaches like the Express coach are part of the reason why. And for the record, I kept my mouth shut.


Tell your boy to keep up the good work, and if there isn't an older referee there to deflect dumb asses like the express coach, make sure you're there to keep an eye on it. Report behavior like that to his assignor. It's absolutely uncalled for and out of line. 
I hope to see your boy on a game sometime learning and growing as a referee.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 29, 2016)

outside! said:


> My 13 year old son just started reffing this year. This past weekend was his first U8 competitive game after reffing about a half a dozen U6 rec games. While he is still not a grade 8, they were so desperate for refs that they used him anyway. When he showed up to the game, there was only one AR who was about the same age as my son. The two teams (Albion and Express) actually impressed me with how well they played a heads up passing game. Express had a few more coordinated kids and dominated the game. Even though his team was dominating the game, the Express coach felt some need to question many calls and non-calls, all though he was otherwise a very positive coach with his team. To his credit the Albion coach never questioned the refs and also did a good job coaching his team. Remember, this is U8 soccer. Why on earth did the Express coach even need to talk to the refs? As I said, they were desperate for refs that day. Coaches like the Express coach are part of the reason why. And for the record, I kept my mouth shut.


I didn't know you could ref a competitive game if you did not have a grade 8 card.


> *What's the difference between Referee Grade 9 & Referee Grade 8? *
> Both are entry level referee grades.  Grade 9 allows you to referee ONLY recreational youth matches. Many of these games may be done at volunteer base.
> 
> Grade 8 allows you to referee all youth games, competitive and recreational. Grade 8 referees usually get paid. Both have no minimum age requirements. (Cal South


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## Laced (Sep 29, 2016)

baldref said:


> and if there isn't an older referee there to deflect dumb asses like the express coach,


outside!'s kid is 13 years old. You think the CR is 9?


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## outside! (Sep 30, 2016)

At least the Express coach had a nice tone of voice when he was questioning calls. My bigger concern was the example he was setting for his players. Overall he coached them well (very positive, no yelling, age appropriate tactics), but because he is probably well liked by his team they are more likely to think such behavior is acceptable. At least with the a*&hole screamer coaches most of the kids know not to emulate them. With regards to the Grade 8 issue, he has completed most of the courses. I think the choices for Presidio were to either cancel the game, or use the available referee. I would not have let him ref a high level game, but there are no high level games at U8.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 30, 2016)

outside! said:


> [...] With regards to the Grade 8 issue, he has completed most of the courses. I think the choices for Presidio were to either cancel the game, or use the available referee. I would not have let him ref a high level game, but there are no high level games at U8.


Not trying to bust your kid. I've just never heard of an assignor sending someone who does not have current Grade 8 license.  Managers and coaches are instructed (ad nauseum by Presidio) to confirm that at least center has current ID card before game,  and if not to contact the league president. Was he an AR or center? 

Presidio is cracking down on teams re-scheduling, no confirmed licensed referee, etc.  I am glad they let them play, just confirming the protocol as I believe home team obligated to supply referees.

Of course, at U8 no one should care.


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## outside! (Sep 30, 2016)

He was center with one AR. They both did a fine job.


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## Laced (Sep 30, 2016)

baldref said:


> Tell your boy to keep up the good work, and if there isn't an older referee there to deflect dumb asses like the express coach, make sure you're there to keep an eye on it. Report behavior like that to his assignor. It's absolutely uncalled for and out of line.
> I hope to see your boy on a game sometime learning and growing as a referee.





outside! said:


> At least the Express coach had a nice tone of voice when he was questioning calls. My bigger concern was the example he was setting for his players. Overall he coached them well (very positive, no yelling, age appropriate tactics), but because he is probably well liked by his team they are more likely to think such behavior is acceptable. At least with the a*&hole screamer coaches most of the kids know not to emulate them. With regards to the Grade 8 issue, he has completed most of the courses. I think the choices for Presidio were to either cancel the game, or use the available referee. I would not have let him ref a high level game, but there are no high level games at U8.


If the coach is questioning calls in a nice tone, why are you concerned? Speaking of setting examples, if you let your kid ref without proper license, what example are you setting?


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## Eagle33 (Sep 30, 2016)

we have a really big problem in this country if we need referees at U8 games.....


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## espola (Sep 30, 2016)

Eagle33 said:


> we have a really big problem in this country if we need referees at U8 games.....


Why wouldn't we?


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## Surfref (Sep 30, 2016)

outside! said:


> My 13 year old son just started reffing this year. This past weekend was his first U8 competitive game after reffing about a half a dozen U6 rec games. While he is still not a grade 8, they were so desperate for refs that they used him anyway. When he showed up to the game, there was only one AR who was about the same age as my son. The two teams (Albion and Express) actually impressed me with how well they played a heads up passing game. Express had a few more coordinated kids and dominated the game. Even though his team was dominating the game, the Express coach felt some need to question many calls and non-calls, all though he was otherwise a very positive coach with his team. To his credit the Albion coach never questioned the refs and also did a good job coaching his team. Remember, this is U8 soccer. Why on earth did the Express coach even need to talk to the refs? As I said, they were desperate for refs that day. Coaches like the Express coach are part of the reason why. And for the record, I kept my mouth shut.


Because the Express coach was evidently a f'ing moron. You should have video taped the moron and sent it into the league and ref assoc.  Presidio is good about protecting the youth referees and would have suspended te moron.  Tell him to stick with it.


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## Surfref (Sep 30, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> I didn't know you could ref a competitive game if you did not have a grade 8 card.


Grade 9 is AR only on competitive games and CR/AR on Rec games


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Because the Express coach was evidently a f'ing moron. You should have video taped the moron and sent it into the league and ref assoc.  Presidio is good about protecting the youth referees and would have suspended te moron.  Tell him to stick with it.


Interesting, i am not associated w express and don't know anything about that particular match, but why is express coach "f moron"? Coaches regularly interact with refs during the game, asking for explanations on certain calls or questioning certain calls...its funny when the protected class lashes out, but when people raise issues about the quality of refereeing some are too quick to play the role of perennial victims.  I grew up in Europe and our refs earned their respect with knowledge and authority, what i have seen in the last four years (U8-12 boys soccer scdsl/coast) is ridiculous, I even took my father in law who was second division ref in Yugoslavia to some of my son's matches and he could not believe how low the quality of officiating is at the U9/10/11 level...there is lots of talk about regulative body that sanctions the refs, how is moving awful ref from officiating lets say U16 games down to U10 beneficial? In these four years i only witnessed a few great officials in the gaming circuit where my son played, i wish there is more of them...


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## baldref (Oct 1, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> Interesting, i am not associated w express and don't know anything about that particular match, but why is express coach "f moron"? Coaches regularly interact with refs during the game, asking for explanations on certain calls or questioning certain calls...its funny when the protected class lashes out, but when people raise issues about the quality of refereeing some are too quick to play the role of perennial victims.  I grew up in Europe and our refs earned their respect with knowledge and authority, what i have seen in the last four years (U8-12 boys soccer scdsl/coast) is ridiculous, I even took my father in law who was second division ref in Yugoslavia to some of my son's matches and he could not believe how low the quality of officiating is at the U9/10/11 level...there is lots of talk about regulative body that sanctions the refs, how is moving awful ref from officiating lets say U16 games down to U10 beneficial? In these four years i only witnessed a few great officials in the gaming circuit where my son played, i wish there is more of them...


Seriously, what positive outcome can arise from an adult coach questioning the calls of a 13 year old referee in a U8 match? Is going to gain an edge? 

Ridiculous. That's what the discussion is, not what you or father in law think of youth referees.


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> Seriously, what positive outcome can arise from an adult coach questioning the calls of a 13 year old referee in a U8 match? Is going to gain an edge?
> 
> Ridiculous. That's what the discussion is, not what you or father in law think of youth referees.


Sorry for upseting you ref, we dont know what type of "questioning" occured, maybe "f coach" asked for an explanation of certain decision made by the ref? If you are not to question, ask, communicate w refs in u8, 10, 15 well let me know when is ok to ask for an explanation, at what age level is ok to do that? This type of an attitude feeds spectators and coaches, officials in cal south deserve such spectators and vice versa...its ridiculous to expect people on sidelines to behave properly when officials are so trigger happy to attack people with different opinions or even worse label someone moron...


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## baldref (Oct 1, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> Sorry for upseting you ref, we dont know what type of "questioning" occured, maybe "f coach" asked for an explanation of certain decision made by the ref? If you are not to question, ask, communicate w refs in u8, 10, 15 well let me know when is ok to ask for an explanation, at what age level is ok to do that? This type of an attitude feeds spectators and coaches, officials in cal south deserve such spectators and vice versa...its ridiculous to expect people on sidelines to behave properly when officials are so trigger happy to attack people with different opinions or even worse label someone moron...


Upset me? You can't upset me. 
But you didn't answer my question, did you. 
Instead you made something up about someone attacking someone and that's the excuse for a U8 coach questioning calls of a youth referee.

I know people like you don't get it. But what you're defending is not acceptable.


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> Upset me? You can't upset me.
> But you didn't answer my question, did you.
> Instead you made something up about someone attacking someone and that's the excuse for a U8 coach questioning calls of a youth referee.
> 
> I know people like you don't get it. But what you're defending is not acceptable.


I dont get it because you know who i am, my background etc.? This coach questioned a call of a ref in u8 and thats something that warrants all this nonsense? In certain European countries we question calls even in youth games, we have a friendly talk with ref, i guess here thats prohibited in youth soccer, but educate me when is it allowed? Again, sorry i am not raised in the US, so all this fuss with ejecting parents from youth level games, coming up with these arbitrary rules with what type of support is allowed by parents and coaches is pretty foreign and ridiculous to me...yes i dont get it, its pretty amusing and shocking, it can only "fly" here in the states i guess?


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## baldref (Oct 1, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> I dont get it because you know who i am, my background etc.? This coach questioned a call of a ref in u8 and thats something that warrants all this nonsense? In certain European countries we question calls even in youth games, we have a friendly talk with ref, i guess here thats prohibited in youth soccer, but educate me when is it allowed? Again, sorry i am not raised in the US, so all this fuss with ejecting parents from youth level games, coming up with these arbitrary rules with what type of support is allowed by parents and coaches is pretty foreign and ridiculous to me...yes i dont get it, its pretty amusing and shocking, it can only "fly" here in the states i guess?


I guess......
I'd explain it again but there seems to be a lack of comprehension
And still no answer to my question, but I didn't expect one..... Have a great evening


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> I guess......
> I'd explain it again but there seems to be a lack of comprehension
> And still no answer to my question, but I didn't expect one..... Have a great
> 
> Yeah it must be a lack of comprehension...jesus, the wonderful world of cal south refs  have a nice evening!


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

I am not defending anything, i am just asking a question.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 1, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> I am not defending anything, i am just asking a question.


Serbian or Croatian?


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## outside! (Oct 1, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> Sorry for upseting you ref, we dont know what type of "questioning" occured, maybe "f coach" asked for an explanation of certain decision made by the ref? If you are not to question, ask, communicate w refs in u8, 10, 15 well let me know when is ok to ask for an explanation, at what age level is ok to do that? This type of an attitude feeds spectators and coaches, officials in cal south deserve such spectators and vice versa...its ridiculous to expect people on sidelines to behave properly when officials are so trigger happy to attack people with different opinions or even worse label someone moron...



Given that there is a shortage of referees in SoCal, and given that referees need to start and learn somewhere, you don't see any problem with a coach who is a fully grown man questioning the decisions of a 13 year old boy that is learning to be a ref during a U8 game? While his tone of voice was not unpleasant, the fact that he was questioning many calls during the game may discourage some children from continuing as referees as well as the fact that he was setting a poor example for his team of 7 year old players. Remember, this was a U8 game and the results will never matter. No body got hurt and the coach that was questioning the call had a team that was dominating the game and went on to win 8-1. I wonder how he acts when his team is losing?


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## Zvezdas (Oct 1, 2016)

outside! said:


> Given that there is a shortage of referees in SoCal, and given that referees need to start and learn somewhere, you don't see any problem with a coach who is a fully grown man questioning the decisions of a 13 year old boy that is learning to be a ref during a U8 game? While his tone of voice was not unpleasant, the fact that he was questioning many calls during the game may discourage some children from continuing as referees as well as the fact that he was setting a poor example for his team of 7 year old players. Remember, this was a U8 game and the results will never matter. No body got hurt and the coach that was questioning the call had a team that was dominating the game and went on to win 8-1. I wonder how he acts when his team is losing?


Listen i dont know how unpleasant that coach was, but maybe they should not allow 13 year olds officiate, if its that dangerous and stressful why expose kids to danger? I understand its voluntary right? We dont have refs at u8 back home, are they really necessary? Why would ref worry about coaches behavior, they have power in this country to eject coach and all the spectators on the sideline, so why all this crying about behavior and comments? I would like all this complaing to stop, if you volunteered for the job and are very passionate about the sport then how you americans say it "deal with it"! I am done with all this ref stuff, enjoy and have fun...


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## wildcat66 (Oct 1, 2016)

If this thread is an indication of the atmosphere of the games that this young ref is going to be exposed to then I hope every coach that he is exposed to questions some of his calls.  I have no problem with a coach tactfully questioning a ref .  Apparently the refs on this site do.  It seams they believe that they have unquestionable authority to do whatever they want and when people question them, critique them, or challenge them they chalk up them up as physco parents, uneducated soccer followers, and overbearing coaches.  If this young ref is unable to handle a coach such as that perhaps he chose the wrong part time job, shortage of refs or not.  He probably got more of an education by being questioned and either having to explain his reasoning  or ignoring the coach than if not.   Our society has weakened our kids by never holding them to any standard for fear of discouraging them, everybody gets a trophy, lets not keep score, etc etc.   Somebody is gonna question him as a ref sooner or later.  I say sooner is better.  But according to the refs on here, I dont get it, i am a moron, and i am making my kids into sociopaths,  and I probably flip burgers for a living......


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## genesis (Oct 1, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> If this thread is an indication of the atmosphere of the games that this young ref is going to be exposed to then I hope every coach that he is exposed to questions some of his calls. I have no problem with a coach tactfully questioning a ref . Apparently the refs on this site do. It seams they believe that they have unquestionable authority to do whatever they want and when people question them, critique them, or challenge them they chalk up them up as physco parents, uneducated soccer followers, and overbearing coaches. If this young ref is unable to handle a coach such as that perhaps he chose the wrong part time job, shortage of refs or not. He probably got more of an education by being questioned and either having to explain his reasoning or ignoring the coach than if not. Our society has weakened our kids by never holding them to any standard for fear of discouraging them, everybody gets a trophy, lets not keep score, etc etc. Somebody is gonna question him as a ref sooner or later. I say sooner is better. But according to the refs on here, I dont get it, i am a moron, and i am making my kids into sociopaths, and I probably flip burgers for a living......


What a load of malarkey.  Our society this, our society that, bla, bla, bla. One thing is true, read your post and you will understand.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 1, 2016)

genesis said:


> What a load of malarkey.  Our society this, our society that, bla, bla, bla. One thing is true, read your post and you will understand.


huh?


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## genesis (Oct 1, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> huh?


You called yourself a moron, haha.  While I would not go that far, if any of the idiocy that takes place in our youth soccer on all fronts is so disturbing to you, perhaps you should take genesis, yourself, and all of our misplaced energy with less importance? Just a thought.


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## Laced (Oct 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Because the Express coach was evidently a f'ing moron. You should have video taped the moron and sent it into the league and ref assoc.  Presidio is good about protecting the youth referees and would have suspended te moron.  Tell him to stick with it.


If the Express coach questioned some calls in a polite tone, he's a f'ing moron and you want him suspended, do you feel the same way if the same kid wears a jersey and the coach questions in a polite tone his plays?


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## wildcat66 (Oct 1, 2016)

genesis said:


> You called yourself a moron, haha.  While I would not go that far, if any of the idiocy that takes place in our youth soccer on all fronts is so disturbing to you, perhaps you should take genesis, yourself, and all of our misplaced energy with less importance? Just a thought.


   Believe me, I place very little importance on what goes on this forum or in soccer in general.  My DD plays and likes the sport, me not so much.  Honestly, just a way to entertain myself  while I work the graveyard shift occasionally to help pay for the darn sport.  I do enjoy a good debate though especially with those who get so riled up in here.  My DD has one more year and off to college so after that you will not see my ugly mug on here again.....


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## Laced (Oct 2, 2016)

outside! said:


> Given that there is a shortage of referees in SoCal, and given that referees need to start and learn somewhere, you don't see any problem with a coach who is a fully grown man questioning the decisions of a 13 year old boy that is learning to be a ref during a U8 game? While his tone of voice was not unpleasant, the fact that he was questioning many calls during the game may discourage some children from continuing as referees as well as the fact that he was setting a poor example for his team of 7 year old players. Remember, this was a U8 game and the results will never matter. No body got hurt and the coach that was questioning the call had a team that was dominating the game and went on to win 8-1. I wonder how he acts when his team is losing?


If a coach questions your kid's calls in a polite and pleasant tone, that's not abuse.  That's life. In school, fully grown adults will question his work ethics. On the field, coaches will question his effort, toughness or abilities. Once he's learned to drive, he'll be cut off on the freeway. His steaks will be overcooked. Life is not perfect. Neither are people. Maturity in part is the ability to accept people's mistakes, as long as it doesn't arise to abuse. What he can learn is that with authority comes boundaries and accountability, unlike what a couple of refs on this forum have you believe, whether he becomes student body president, congressman or CEO. Not all minor wrongs can or need be remedied.

Specific to being a ref, when a coach questions his calls - as long as it's done in a non-disparaging manner - it gives him an opportunity to develop a healthy mindset and different perspectives. With a sense of accountability, he'll eventually learn to defuse situations with a quick explanation. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed with a ref. He gave a yellow card on what appeared to be a minor foul. He quickly turned around and told the coach "Too many verbals." Being a good ref involves more than knowing LOTG. It involves humility. The ability to see how others could reasonable perceive things differently. The ability to agree to disagree.

On this particular incident, I simply disagree with you.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 2, 2016)

Laced said:


> If a coach questions your kid's calls in a polite and pleasant tone, that's not abuse.  That's life. In school, fully grown adults will question his work ethics. On the field, coaches will question his effort, toughness or abilities. Once he's learned to drive, he'll be cut off on the freeway. His steaks will be overcooked. Life is not perfect. Neither are people. Maturity in part is the ability to accept people's mistakes, as long as it doesn't arise to abuse. What he can learn is that with authority comes boundaries and accountability, unlike what a couple of refs on this forum have you believe, whether he becomes student body president, congressman or CEO. Not all minor wrongs can or need be remedied.
> 
> Specific to being a ref, when a coach questions his calls - as long as it's done in a non-disparaging manner - it gives him an opportunity to develop a healthy mindset and different perspectives. With a sense of accountability, he'll eventually learn to defuse situations with a quick explanation. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed with a ref. He gave a yellow card on what appeared to be a minor foul. He quickly turned around and told the coach "Too many verbals." Being a good ref involves more than knowing LOTG. It involves humility. The ability to see how others could reasonable perceive things differently. The ability to agree to disagree.
> 
> On this particular incident, I simply disagree with you.


amen to that


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## GunninGopher (Oct 2, 2016)

Laced said:


> Being a good ref involves more than knowing LOTG. It involves humility. The ability to see how others could reasonable perceive things differently. The ability to agree to disagree.


I totally agree and appreciate this being said. Make a poster.

The above applies to parents and coaches as well. I saw this in a microcosm of 2 games I refereed over the weekend. We all came to genuine, peaceful understanding and acceptance of our disagreements. During a break in action a coach asked me, as an AR, how I saw the player as being in an off-side position when they were shoulder to shoulder. I explained that when the ball was played through, the player was ahead of the defender, but that it had gone back and forth. If I wasn't sure, I wouldn't have signaled. He was fine and we moved on. I felt absolutely no animosity about being questioned. In the preceding game, I even had a parent and coach tell a parent, who wasn't even behaving out of the norm, that he should 'get a jersey'. I mentioned to him, as a ball was being retrieved, that I had to call it as I saw it from the field and the game wasn't going to turn on the throw in, he agreed, we both chuckled and that was the end of it.

This whole thread, as a reflection of the message board itself, has once again disintegrated into people "shouting" past each other about fringe elements behind them. While officiating, coaching and spectating during a match, you have to consider the other's perspective when considering decisions during play.

There are good referees and bad ones. Good coaches and bad ones. It serves no purpose, especially here, to lump decent, open minded people in with those that, frankly, aren't!! Referee's, coaches and parents shouldn't assume that just because one is being criticized, all are. We also have to admit that we know and have seen some really bad examples of 'ourselves' out there. The funny thing is, most people here do admit that, but their detractors seem to disregard the openness.

Nothing positive will come from continuing this thread. Maybe the next one similar to it that pops up this month will turn out different. But it will have a long history of failure preceding it.


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## Surfref (Oct 2, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> Sorry for upseting you ref, we dont know what type of "questioning" occured, maybe "f coach" asked for an explanation of certain decision made by the ref? If you are not to question, ask, communicate w refs in u8, 10, 15 well let me know when is ok to ask for an explanation, at what age level is ok to do that? This type of an attitude feeds spectators and coaches, officials in cal south deserve such spectators and vice versa...its ridiculous to expect people on sidelines to behave properly when officials are so trigger happy to attack people with different opinions or even worse label someone moron...


It has nothing to do with the age of the players.  It has everything to do with the age of the referee.  Cal South, Presidio/SDDA, SCDSL, CSL and ECNL will back a youth referee 100 percent.  When I have a youth referee on my crew, CR or AR, the coaches and managers get one warning before the game.  All Cal South coaches know not to make and comments or questions toward a youth referee.  There is zero tolerance for any comments/questions to a youth referee.  The quickest way for spectators or coaches to get thrown out of a game is to yell at a youth referee.  I worked with a 14 year old referee on two GU9 games.  These were his first two games in the center.  Riptide was the home team and I cannot remember who the visiting teams were.  All four coaches told the spectators to say nothing to the refs.  The Riptide coaches and spectators went out of their way after the game to provided positive comments to the youth referee and told him great job.  The youth referee was all smiles and left the field with Some new found confidence.  Those Riptide coaches understood that yelling at the youth referee would only make him want to quit and that positive comments would keep him coming back.

There is NEVER a good time when it is appropriate to yell negative comments or question a youth referee.


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## Surfref (Oct 2, 2016)

Laced said:


> If a coach questions your kid's calls in a polite and pleasant tone, that's not abuse.  That's life. In school, fully grown adults will question his work ethics. On the field, coaches will question his effort, toughness or abilities. Once he's learned to drive, he'll be cut off on the freeway. His steaks will be overcooked. Life is not perfect. Neither are people. Maturity in part is the ability to accept people's mistakes, as long as it doesn't arise to abuse. What he can learn is that with authority comes boundaries and accountability, unlike what a couple of refs on this forum have you believe, whether he becomes student body president, congressman or CEO. Not all minor wrongs can or need be remedied.
> 
> Specific to being a ref, when a coach questions his calls - as long as it's done in a non-disparaging manner - it gives him an opportunity to develop a healthy mindset and different perspectives. With a sense of accountability, he'll eventually learn to defuse situations with a quick explanation. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed with a ref. He gave a yellow card on what appeared to be a minor foul. He quickly turned around and told the coach "Too many verbals." Being a good ref involves more than knowing LOTG. It involves humility. The ability to see how others could reasonable perceive things differently. The ability to agree to disagree.
> 
> On this particular incident, I simply disagree with you.


What you fail to understand is that Cal South and all the leagues have laid out guidance for the coaches that they WILL NOT comment or question the calls of youth referees.  There is no wording saying that it is okay to politely question a youth referee.  No comments or questions means just that.

The logic behind this policy is fairly simple.  An adult questioning, even politely, a 12-16 year old can be intimidating to that kid.  I cannot put it any simpler than that.  If you still don't understand, than I feel sorry for you.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 2, 2016)

Surfref said:


> It has nothing to do with the age of the players.  It has everything to do with the age of the referee.  Cal South, Presidio/SDDA, SCDSL, CSL and ECNL will back a youth referee 100 percent.  When I have a youth referee on my crew, CR or AR, the coaches and managers get one warning before the game.  All Cal South coaches know not to make and comments or questions toward a youth referee.  There is zero tolerance for any comments/questions to a youth referee.  The quickest way for spectators or coaches to get thrown out of a game is to yell at a youth referee.  I worked with a 14 year old referee on two GU9 games.  These were his first two games in the center.  Riptide was the home team and I cannot remember who the visiting teams were.  All four coaches told the spectators to say nothing to the refs.  The Riptide coaches and spectators went out of their way after the game to provided positive comments to the youth referee and told him great job.  The youth referee was all smiles and left the field with Some new found confidence.  Those Riptide coaches understood that yelling at the youth referee would only make him want to quit and that positive comments would keep him coming back.
> 
> There is NEVER a good time when it is appropriate to yell negative comments or question a youth referee.


     What a bunch of crap....someday that kid is gonna have to get questioned on his/her decisions....questioning tactfully is not abuse.  Nobody is advocating yelling at the kid.  so as a coach do I tell my team, "sorry that ref made a couple bad calls and messed up your attempt at the goal, but his confidence and development is way more important than yours."  That is why colleges now have had to double their counseling staffs because professors hold students accountable and they cant handle it.  I wonder is that is how his teachers treat him, "its OK that you didn't study for this test and screwed up many answers, I am gonna tell u good job and give you an A for effort anyway......wow.


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## Surfref (Oct 2, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> What a bunch of crap....someday that kid is gonna have to get questioned on his/her decisions....questioning tactfully is not abuse.  Nobody is advocating yelling at the kid.  so as a coach do I tell my team, "sorry that ref made a couple bad calls and messed up your attempt at the goal, but his confidence and development is way more important than yours."  That is why colleges now have had to double their counseling staffs because professors hold students accountable and they cant handle it.  I wonder is that is how his teachers treat him, "its OK that you didn't study for this test and screwed up many answers, I am gonna tell u good job and give you an A for effort anyway......wow.


We don't have to agree, but the coach and spectators do need to follow the Cal South policy and ethics guidance.  Those are the rules that I have to enforce and coaches must follow.


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## baldref (Oct 2, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> What a bunch of crap....someday that kid is gonna have to get questioned on his/her decisions....questioning tactfully is not abuse.  Nobody is advocating yelling at the kid.  so as a coach do I tell my team, "sorry that ref made a couple bad calls and messed up your attempt at the goal, but his confidence and development is way more important than yours."  That is why colleges now have had to double their counseling staffs because professors hold students accountable and they cant handle it.  I wonder is that is how his teachers treat him, "its OK that you didn't study for this test and screwed up many answers, I am gonna tell u good job and give you an A for effort anyway......wow.


Too many coaches questioning the 13 year old and he never makes it to the next year. Thays an asinine argument.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 2, 2016)

baldref said:


> Too many coaches questioning the 13 year old and he never makes it to the next year. Thays an asinine argument.


 Perhaps he/she shouldn't.  My DD did tryouts for a couple teams and didn't make the cut.  Should they have taken her even though she wasn't doing a good enough job?  She didn't quit though, worked hard and came back the next year and made the team.  A youth ref couldnt do that?


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## baldref (Oct 2, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Perhaps he/she shouldn't.  My DD did tryouts for a couple teams and didn't make the cut.  Should they have taken her even though she wasn't doing a good enough job?  She didn't quit though, worked hard and came back the next year and made the team.  A youth ref couldnt do that?


Why would they? It's not a spot on a team. There aren't many kids who yearn to referee. It's very difficult to get the younger kids to stick with it. And going back to my question from many posts ago..... What does a U8 coach have to gain from questioning a 13 year old center? Since all you coaches are afraid to answer let me help you. Absolutely nothing. It's reflex. It means nothing. Are you working that kid to get the next call like in a high level older match? Or are you setting a poor example for the players, letting them know it's ok to question the ref on a  throw in at the mid line? Even if it makes no difference. At U8, teach them to play, to argue, not dive, not question calls, not act up. It gets that coach nothing. It hurts that youth ref. Wide up


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## coachrefparent (Oct 2, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> What a bunch of crap....someday that kid is gonna have to get questioned on his/her decisions....questioning tactfully is not abuse.  Nobody is advocating yelling at the kid.  so as a coach do I tell my team, "sorry that ref made a couple bad calls and messed up your attempt at the goal, but his confidence and development is way more important than yours."  That is why colleges now have had to double their counseling staffs because professors hold students accountable and they cant handle it.  I wonder is that is how his teachers treat him, "its OK that you didn't study for this test and screwed up many answers, I am gonna tell u good job and give you an A for effort anyway......wow.


Of course you are right. Cal South, Presidio and other leagues nationwide all have it wrong. If only they had your insight; If only they would listen to you. Idiots, all of them.


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## Laced (Oct 2, 2016)

Surfref said:


> What you fail to understand is that Cal South and all the leagues have laid out guidance for the coaches that they WILL NOT comment or question the calls of youth referees.  There is no wording saying that it is okay to politely question a youth referee.  No comments or questions means just that.
> 
> The logic behind this policy is fairly simple.  An adult questioning, even politely, a 12-16 year old can be intimidating to that kid.  I cannot put it any simpler than that.  If you still don't understand, than I feel sorry for you.


Where is the CalSouth rule that prohibits anyone from talking to a youth ref? Or is it one of your "rules of thumb?" Speaking of which, you still haven't answered where in LOTG is "referee credibility" mentioned? And where in LOTG is the cap on the number of fouls can AR call?


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2016)

Laced said:


> Where is the CalSouth rule that prohibits anyone from talking to a youth ref? Or is it one of your "rules of thumb?" Speaking of which, you still haven't answered where in LOTG is "referee credibility" mentioned? And where in LOTG is the cap on the number of fouls can AR call?


From Cal South Code of Conduct:

"In addition, each Coach will ensure that his/her conduct sets a good example for team members and spectators. To meet these responsibilities, the Coach is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials at all  times. Refrain from questioning their decisions or challenging their authority.

Every player is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials and refrain from addressing them or commenting on their
decisions during or after the game.

The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in "coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence the makeup of the team at any time. Every parent and spectator is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions


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## Laced (Oct 3, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> From Cal South Code of Conduct:
> 
> "In addition, each Coach will ensure that his/her conduct sets a good example for team members and spectators. To meet these responsibilities, the Coach is expected to:
> [...]
> ...


Surfref claims that Calsouth and all leagues have guidelines specific to *youth *referees.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2016)

Laced said:


> Surfref claims that Calsouth and all leagues have guidelines specific to *youth *referees.


These are from Cal South, and apply to all game officials. So I guess he's being generous, as are all referees for putting up with the violation of these rules in every match.  I know I'm guilty on occasion as a parent or coach, and I appreciate the discretion.

All local leagues from AYSO on upto the highest competitive circuit all consistently state that there is zero tolerance for questioning decisions, or challenging the authority of youth referees, whether you agree with that or not.  The reality, as opposed to these fictional hypotheticals, is that no coach is going to be sent off if they have a calm, rational, discreet question to a youth referee. But we all know that's not the "problem" being discussed here.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 3, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> These are from Cal South, and apply to all game officials. So I guess he's being generous, as are all referees for putting up with the violation of these rules in every match.  I know I'm guilty on occasion as a parent or coach, and I appreciate the discretion.
> 
> All local leagues from AYSO on upto the highest competitive circuit all consistently state that there is zero tolerance for questioning decisions, or challenging the authority of youth referees, whether you agree with that or not.  The reality, as opposed to these fictional hypotheticals, is that no coach is going to be sent off if they have a calm, rational, discreet question to a youth referee. But we all know that's not the "problem" being discussed here.


     I would agree with what you are saying, noting though that Cal south is looking out for its own interests first, not the interests of the players/coaches/parents.   The code of conduct refers to officials but does not include them with specific guidelines as it does for the players, coaches and parents.  I assume the officials are governed by a different code of conduct??  I have no issues with officials who come and call the game as they see it.  There is always going to be calls that can go either way and depending on what team you are rooting for you are going to be biased toward the call.  My issue is with officials who feel like they have some obligation to officiate the manners, etiquette, and demeanor of the fans...We tend to forget that if the soccer community desires for the sport to continue to grow it cannot only cater to parents who are bound by the Cal South agreements they have to sign to allow their kids to play.   what a bout just a fan?  Can't I as a member of the community got see the local team play?  What if i get loud and offend the ref?  Threatening me with removal from the game has a whole lot less effect that it does with a parent.  That is where I think that the refs need to analyze if the "abuse" they feel they may be receiving is worth stopping the game and getting confrontational.  From the games I have attended in other countries whose spectators were more than just parents, I consider American fans to be somewhat calm.  We don't riot when our local club loses or wins.


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## baldref (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I would agree with what you are saying, noting though that Cal south is looking out for its own interests first, not the interests of the players/coaches/parents.   The code of conduct refers to officials but does not include them with specific guidelines as it does for the players, coaches and parents.  I assume the officials are governed by a different code of conduct??  I have no issues with officials who come and call the game as they see it.  There is always going to be calls that can go either way and depending on what team you are rooting for you are going to be biased toward the call.  My issue is with officials who feel like they have some obligation to officiate the manners, etiquette, and demeanor of the fans...We tend to forget that if the soccer community desires for the sport to continue to grow it cannot only cater to parents who are bound by the Cal South agreements they have to sign to allow their kids to play.   what a bout just a fan?  Can't I as a member of the community got see the local team play?  What if i get loud and offend the ref?  Threatening me with removal from the game has a whole lot less effect that it does with a parent.  That is where I think that the refs need to analyze if the "abuse" they feel they may be receiving is worth stopping the game and getting confrontational.  From the games I have attended in other countries whose spectators were more than just parents, I consider American fans to be somewhat calm.  We don't riot when our local club loses or wins.


what if the games on mars allow fans to shoot the referees with ray guns? that makes it ok in America and therefor calsouth? your argument is moot. this is where it is and what it is. and if a fan, not a parent, is abusive, then they will be asked to leave. if they don't, the game will be stopped until such time the proper authorities are called and they are removed. pretty simple and i don't understand any argument against it. if any adult, is ruining a game played by younger people, they are wrong. period. coach. parent. whomever.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 3, 2016)

baldref said:


> what if the games on mars allow fans to shoot the referees with ray guns? that makes it ok in America and therefor calsouth? your argument is moot. this is where it is and what it is. and if a fan, not a parent, is abusive, then they will be asked to leave. if they don't, the game will be stopped until such time the proper authorities are called and they are removed. pretty simple and i don't understand any argument against it. if any adult, is ruining a game played by younger people, they are wrong. period. coach. parent. whomever.


  And this is the knuckle head answer I would expect from a ref like  you , not logical, not based on any type of actual regulation, just because the "authority vested in you" by the soccer gods.  Just  because you have donned the striped shirt, cheesy black shorts and socks pulled up to your waist and been ordained with a golden whistle and a couple of colored cards you must be the smartest guy on the field.....thats what they told you in ref school anyway....keep dreaming.


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## baldref (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> And this is the knuckle head answer I would expect from a ref like  you , not logical, not based on any type of actual regulation, just because the "authority vested in you" by the soccer gods.  Just  because you have donned the striped shirt, cheesy black shorts and socks pulled up to your waist and been ordained with a golden whistle and a couple of colored cards you must be the smartest guy on the field.....thats what they told you in ref school anyway....keep dreaming.


Genius answer
When people are over matched they insult and call names. Good luck to you.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> My issue is with officials who feel like they have some obligation to officiate the manners, etiquette, and demeanor of the fans...We tend to forget that if the soccer community desires for the sport to continue to grow it cannot only cater to parents who are bound by the Cal South agreements they have to sign to allow their kids to play.   what a bout just a fan?  Can't I as a member of the community got see the local team play?  What if i get loud and offend the ref?  Threatening me with removal from the game has a whole lot less effect that it does with a parent.  That is where I think that the refs need to analyze if the "abuse" they feel they may be receiving is worth stopping the game and getting confrontational.  From the games I have attended in other countries whose spectators were more than just parents, I consider American fans to be somewhat calm.  We don't riot when our local club loses or wins.


You ask a lot of questions, but provide no answers. You seem to imply that some unaffiliated 3rd party fan (as if this exists at a youth soccer game), should be given more leeway to criticize the referees than the participants.  That's crazy.



baldref said:


> and if a fan, not a parent, is abusive, then they will be asked to leave. if they don't, the game will be stopped until such time the proper authorities are called and they are removed. pretty simple and i don't understand any argument against it. if any adult, is ruining a game played by younger people, they are wrong. period. coach. parent. whomever.


wildcat66, you really disagree with this? Of course anyone being abusive should be sent away. This is true at any youth event.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 3, 2016)

For me it is the definition of "abusive"  I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer.  On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school.  The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls.  Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it.  There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well.  did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO.  Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO.  They never even turned around and looked at the crowd.  They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette  I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job.  I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.


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## baldref (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> For me it is the definition of "abusive"  I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer.  On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school.  The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls.  Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it.  There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well.  did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO.  Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO.  They never even turned around and looked at the crowd.  They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette  I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job.  I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.


Again
Apples and grapes is your argument
You just can't stick to the topic


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## wildcat66 (Oct 3, 2016)

uhh,  thought we were talking about referee abuse.  Are you saying that by comparing soccer referees to football referees,  I am not on the topic?   All I am saying is that the refs would be better off if they just blocked out the crowd, coaches, etc and concentrated on the players and game.  I get that the leagues have tasked you with being some sort of sportsmanship judge as well which is crazy in my book.  If they want quiet, low energy crowds who only cheer positive reinforcing comments they need to supply crowd police or  something.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> uhh,  thought we were talking about referee abuse.  Are you saying that by comparing soccer referees to football referees,  I am not on the topic?   All I am saying is that the refs would be better off if they just blocked out the crowd, coaches, etc and concentrated on the players and game.  I get that the leagues have tasked you with being some sort of sportsmanship judge as well which is crazy in my book.  If they want quiet, low energy crowds who only cheer positive reinforcing comments they need to supply crowd police or  something.


At least you are starting to acknowledge that the leagues make the rules, not you. As noted, the rules are not the same nor are the environments. 

High school football games are attended by thousands of people who are 20-50 yards from the officials. Individual jack-a$$es are mostly drowned out by the crowd. There is cheering, booing and comments flung around, but more of an overall drone from the fans. 

Contrast this with a few dozen spectators aside. Located within feet (sometimes inches) from the officials. A completely different environment.  According to your argument, fans should be able to yell at players during a round of competitive golf because they do at hockey and football games. 

Even so, I've seen spectators ejected from high school sports of all kinds, the Ryder cup, MLB baseball, NFL, and even youth FNL football. And every last one of them felt they had a "right" to be a buffoon, the rules were too strict, and blamed the officials.


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## Zvezdas (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> uhh,  thought we were talking about referee abuse.  Are you saying that by comparing soccer referees to football referees,  I am not on the topic?   All I am saying is that the refs would be better off if they just blocked out the crowd, coaches, etc and concentrated on the players and game.  I get that the leagues have tasked you with being some sort of sportsmanship judge as well which is crazy in my book.  If they want quiet, low energy crowds who only cheer positive reinforcing comments they need to supply crowd police or  something.



I agree that refs should be trained to block off crowd just like in the Europe, but as i learned reading posts from the local refs on this board training and rules prohibit them...community needs to put pressure on Cal South and other soccer governing bodies if they want change...in my opinion, lack of football culture dictates these rules, its hards to develop passionate support culture if officials have authority to expell sidelines in kids games...i wonder how many of these ref posting here visited youth or adult games in European countries and whats their opinion of crowds and their style of support?


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## baldref (Oct 3, 2016)

Zvezdas said:


> I agree that refs should be trained to block off crowd just like in the Europe, but as i learned reading posts from the local refs on this board training and rules prohibit them...community needs to put pressure on Cal South and other soccer governing bodies if they want change...in my opinion, lack of football culture dictates these rules, its hards to develop passionate support culture if officials have authority to expell sidelines in kids games...i wonder how many of these ref posting here visited youth or adult games in European countries and whats their opinion of crowds and their style of support?


Once again, we're not in Europe.


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## Zvezdas (Oct 3, 2016)

baldref said:


> Once again, we're not in Europe.


I asked for an opinion, more politness would not hurt ref! Stating that we are not in Europe should what devalue my argument? Lmao


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## wildcat66 (Oct 3, 2016)

I have never bee to a competitive golf match? I am pretty sure I would fall asleep at that.   And yest the leagues make the rules which in many cases is based on what is good for the league, not the players or even the sport.  (thats a whole other topic)  But when you look at the rules that the refs on here use to back up there argument (code of conduct)  they are very general and purposely non specific as to how they must enforce them.  "Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions"  Thats where the referees have some leeway as to how to respond.  In other aspects of the game you apply factors such as advantage, age of players, level of players, intentional or non intentional  etc why not in crowd policing?  I respect my father but he has made some stupid decisions a few times and I have told him.  I respect my wife but there have been times we have disagreed.  Using the soccer league logic she should have thrown me out of the house long ago because I didnt like to watch some chic flic.....


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## Surfref (Oct 3, 2016)

Most parents are good spectators and cheer for their kids.  I completely understand the occasional parent(s) that yell at me (sometimes they may actually have a better angle than me).  That is just part of the game.  The problem occurs when that parent(s) continue and keep the negative comments coming.  The good coaches and managers will shut them up, if not than I will talk to the coach and ask the coach to quiet them.  The last thing I want to do is have the coach remove a spectator.  They pay a lot of money for their kid to play.  But more importantly,  they will embarrass their kid and miss seeing them play.

I as an adult have the experience and skills to deal with people yelling at me.  A 13 year old youth referee has not developed those coping skills and a youth soccer game is not the appropriate place lace to learn.


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## Laced (Oct 3, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> These are from Cal South, and apply to all game officials. So I guess he's being generous, as are all referees for putting up with the violation of these rules in every match.  I know I'm guilty on occasion as a parent or coach, and I appreciate the discretion.
> 
> All local leagues from AYSO on upto the highest competitive circuit all consistently state that there is zero tolerance for questioning decisions, or challenging the authority of youth referees, whether you agree with that or not.  The reality, as opposed to these fictional hypotheticals, is that no coach is going to be sent off if they have a calm, rational, discreet question to a youth referee. But we all know that's not the "problem" being discussed here.


Surfref claims that there're specific rules pertaining to youth refs. He also claims LOTG allows him to consider "referee credibility" in his decisions, and a cap on fouls referees can call. What you quoted doesn't support any of those claims, unless you consider questions "in a pleasant tone" to be abuse.


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## Surfref (Oct 3, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> For me it is the definition of "abusive"  I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer.  On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school.  The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls.  Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it.  There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well.  did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO.  Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO.  They never even turned around and looked at the crowd.  They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette  I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job.  I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.


I cannot honestly hear the spectators when I work club, HS, adult or college games in a stadium.  Most youth games have the parents 3-5 yards from the touch line, so I can hear everything said by the spectators.  I have also officiated club and HS volleyball, baseball(worst spectators), and lacrosse.  Baseball is far worse than soccer and club volleyball is about the same as soccer.  I can usually block out the annoying parent, but when the players start to repeat the parents comments that is when I have to interact with the coach.  What is so difficult about sitting there, listening to some music and watching your kid play some soccer without yelling at the referee?


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## Surfref (Oct 3, 2016)

Laced said:


> Surfref claims that there're specific rules pertaining to youth refs. He also claims LOTG allows him to consider "referee credibility" in his decisions, and a cap on fouls referees can call. What you quoted doesn't support any of those claims, unless you consider questions "in a pleasant tone" to be abuse.


Go get referee qualified and learn.  That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes.  Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field.  You would be surprised at the difficulty level.  Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.  

If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.

Enough soccer.  Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 4, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Go get referee qualified and learn.  That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes.  Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field.  You would be surprised at the difficulty level.  Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.
> 
> If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.
> 
> Enough soccer.  Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.


SR, what is your favorite weapon? I am a single action, Colt 1911 guy myself and as  rifles, Colt Le 6920 and win 300sm.


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## Eagle33 (Oct 4, 2016)

This is from SCDSL rules:
"Coaches are responsible for their team sideline and parent sideline and all actions therein. Coaches are expected
to coach their teams in a positive and respectful manner. The SCDSL encourages referees to discipline any coach
for irresponsible behavior if the coach, player or parent uses derogatory words or actions aimed at their players,
the opposing team’s players, coach or sideline or any of the referees".

Pretty simple and clear to me.


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## genesis (Oct 4, 2016)

What is the final issue here, sorry too lazy to read back but still want to comment on officials.  Officials have improved significantly over the years, especially since I created this world. More players have become refs and they mostly understand the game, cynicism on the part of players, as well as the laws. Of course as a matter of perspective officials will make calls that are speculative in the eyes of the beholder. Unfortunately we have yet to design a system of perfection.  The real crime is the lack of education on the part of spectators and coaches alike. Just walk an independent sideline and listen to the stupidity with respect to officiating. Just the understanding of off-sides and participation; all you can do is laugh, "COME ON REF". One more thing, leave the kids alone as they are the future of officiating; I for one don't want them to walk away. The word has been spoken!


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## Laced (Oct 4, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Go get referee qualified and learn.  That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes.  Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field.  You would be surprised at the difficulty level.  Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.
> 
> If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.
> 
> Enough soccer.  Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.


Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 4, 2016)

In all seriousness, do clubs/teams have any say who refs their games?  Is there a schedule that comes out ahead of time?  If a coach knows that certain refs tend to call things that perhaps his team does can he request different refs?  I don't mean having referees that are in your pocket but it is also understandable that certain refs have personal beliefs on how the game is suppose to be played and that may not be your style  ie when my daughter played a couple years ago in Coast Silver Elite, most of the teams during the season were Inland empire clubs who played what I called "blue collar physical soccer"  the refs seemed to understand that and wouldn't call many fouls.  The Attitude seemed to be "let them play."   A few of the teams were from Temecula or orange county and when those refs officiated they were calling things that the other refs just simply didn't call.  Also not to be stereotypical but many of the more Hispanic dominated sidelines were a lot more vocal towards what was going on .... the inland empire refs didn't seem to care where as the Orange county refs were always cautioning coaches/parents etc.  On the same note do the refs have any say who they will ref?  ie  Coach A  and I have a history so it wouldn't be fair for me to be his ref because whatever.....just thinking what if ref was the cousin or something of the coach  and opposing team knew it?


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## outside! (Oct 4, 2016)

Laced said:


> Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.
> 
> Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.


Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.


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## genesis (Oct 4, 2016)

outside! said:


> Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.
> 
> While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.


Agree with majority of what you have said, however, the fact that you record your kids games is somewhat troubling.


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## Laced (Oct 4, 2016)

outside! said:


> Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.
> 
> While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.


How are sideline disputes, or his competence or experience at youth-level games relevant to the non-existing rules he cited?


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## baldref (Oct 4, 2016)

Laced said:


> Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.
> 
> Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.


angry much? holy cow.....


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## baldref (Oct 4, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> In all seriousness, do clubs/teams have any say who refs their games?  Is there a schedule that comes out ahead of time?  If a coach knows that certain refs tend to call things that perhaps his team does can he request different refs?  I don't mean having referees that are in your pocket but it is also understandable that certain refs have personal beliefs on how the game is suppose to be played and that may not be your style  ie when my daughter played a couple years ago in Coast Silver Elite, most of the teams during the season were Inland empire clubs who played what I called "blue collar physical soccer"  the refs seemed to understand that and wouldn't call many fouls.  The Attitude seemed to be "let them play."   A few of the teams were from Temecula or orange county and when those refs officiated they were calling things that the other refs just simply didn't call.  Also not to be stereotypical but many of the more Hispanic dominated sidelines were a lot more vocal towards what was going on .... the inland empire refs didn't seem to care where as the Orange county refs were always cautioning coaches/parents etc.  On the same note do the refs have any say who they will ref?  ie  Coach A  and I have a history so it wouldn't be fair for me to be his ref because whatever.....just thinking what if ref was the cousin or something of the coach  and opposing team knew it?


coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".


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## Laced (Oct 4, 2016)

baldref said:


> angry much? holy cow.....


Of course not. I can take it in stride, unlike a handful of refs who overreact.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

baldref said:


> coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
> are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".


Thanks for this post. 
I am confused about this though- "if one team isn't comfortable with the level of physicality"....uh the game is the game. A foul is a foul? Isn't that what you are trying to preach?
As much as I enjoy the theatrics, flops, girls crying then magically being healed on a direct kick, it's getting old. 
Just trying to learn because I am definetly seeing a certain team likes to play a certain way and when the game isn't played the way they enjoy it they enlist a bevy of alternative tactics.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> For me it is the definition of "abusive"  I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer.  On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school.  The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls.  Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it.  There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well.  did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO.  Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO.  They never even turned around and looked at the crowd.  They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette  I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job.  I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.


Another thing that seems to be happening more in the last five years are the "teachable moment refs ". The ones who clearly enjoy their role and want to "make a point" by having a lengthy discussion about "how bad that was".
No thanks.
Don't see in football, baseball, lacrosse. 
I like the refs and I respect them. However spare me the teachable moment lecture when you are not watching elbows flying, jerseys being pulled etc.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

PSS for the record the ARs at the games this week were young. I made it a point to say thank you to them and say it was great having them because they kept pace with the game. His father was sitting next to me and said that is a rare thing and thanked me. I can only imagine my son doing it and would want someone to do the same to him one day. 
So yes I do appreciate refs I am just confused by what I have been seeing round the pitch


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## baldref (Oct 4, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?


I'm not a fan of it. It makes no difference to me but it is annoying. I'm not going to approach the game any different.


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## baldref (Oct 4, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Thanks for this post.
> I am confused about this though- "if one team isn't comfortable with the level of physicality"....uh the game is the game. A foul is a foul? Isn't that what you are trying to preach?
> As much as I enjoy the theatrics, flops, girls crying then magically being healed on a direct kick, it's getting old.
> Just trying to learn because I am definetly seeing a certain team likes to play a certain way and when the game isn't played the way they enjoy it they enlist a bevy of alternative tactics.


A foul is a foul, but in soccer, it's the only sport where officials do not have to stop the game if the foul either makes no difference (trifling) or the team against which the foul was committed, gains an advantage by letting the game flow. We want the game to flow, not a bunch of whistles and free kicks. That being said, if fouls need to be called, we can and will call as many as needed to try to limit more, and can issue cards if need be. Yes, the diving and faking injury is a tool players use, and are taught, unfortunately, that we need to attempt to see through. But just because a player embellishes, doesn't mean they weren't fouled. It takes experience and lots a games to learn how to not let it affect you. Which gets back to the original point of this thread. Let the youth CR do his/ her job without trying to sway their judgement until such time as they gain more experience do they can become good at readin and reacting or not reacting to the intricacies of the higher age/level games


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

baldref said:


> I'm not a fan of it. It makes no difference to me but it is annoying. I'm not going to approach the game any different.


Thanks for this. To me I felt like it was disrespectful. If we truly apply the laws then a ref wouldn't need to know things like that. I just always find it a little out of bounds


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

We also hear a lot of "I hate the way Team C plays" etc etc. I laugh when people say those things because it shows they don't watch college soccer. Not everyone is going to play your "style".


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## genesis (Oct 4, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?


Working refs part of every sport even the ultimate sport of presidential debates.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 4, 2016)

genesis said:


> Working refs part of every sport even the ultimate sport of presidential debates.


Agree just pointing out if you feel the need to do that for a u11-u16 soccer game there is a lot more wrong with youth sports than refs.


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## genesis (Oct 4, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Agree just pointing out if you feel the need to do that for a u11-u16 soccer game there is a lot more wrong with youth sports than refs.


Devils advocate; coaches responsibility to get every advantage for their team. Just like not paying taxes, it's smart. Yes youth sports may be the only endeavor where lay people try to tell officials and coaches how to do their job.  Imagine telling your doctor where to make the incision.  But from your tone I can tell you already understand all this.


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## Mystery Train (Oct 5, 2016)

baldref said:


> A foul is a foul, but in soccer, it's the only sport where officials do not have to stop the game if the foul either makes no difference (trifling) or the team against which the foul was committed, gains an advantage by letting the game flow. We want the game to flow, not a bunch of whistles and free kicks.


This is a big thing for new soccer parents to understand.   Definitely it is partly cultural for Americans.  All but a very few addicted soccer fans ever watched professional soccer on TV.  But we all have tons of experience watching American sports, where foul calls are much different.  Football refs will often avoid calling holding penalties if the hold happened away from the action and did not influence the play, but for the most part, because of the way the game is played, any foul is an big advantage for the cheat (in football, the play continues and you can even decline the penalty), so they have to call what they see.  This was hard to grasp at first when I started watching my kid play.  Once I understood the above, some of the no calls made a whole lot more sense.  Of course now that I get it, it just means I can scream "HEY REF!  PLAY THE ADVANTAGE!" when they do call a foul they shouldn't have.  Poor refs.  LOL


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## baldref (Oct 5, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> This is a big thing for new soccer parents to understand.   Definitely it is partly cultural for Americans.  All but a very few addicted soccer fans ever watched professional soccer on TV.  But we all have tons of experience watching American sports, where foul calls are much different.  Football refs will often avoid calling holding penalties if the hold happened away from the action and did not influence the play, but for the most part, because of the way the game is played, any foul is an big advantage for the cheat (in football, the play continues and you can even decline the penalty), so they have to call what they see.  This was hard to grasp at first when I started watching my kid play.  Once I understood the above, some of the no calls made a whole lot more sense.  Of course now that I get it, it just means I can scream "HEY REF!  PLAY THE ADVANTAGE!" when they do call a foul they shouldn't have.  Poor refs.  LOL


it's definitely something that comes with experience to know when or when not to allow advantage. i was doing the ecnl playoffs last july i think it was, and one of the great things about being allowed to referee those types of games is that you get to work with many very high level and very knowledgeable and proficient referees. i had a center in a girls 17 game, and on one line i had a national referee, and on the other a very experienced state referee and assessor. you always ask for feed back from these types of referees to learn and discuss the finer points of the games. one team had a great big center back that swept up just about everything, and would distribute to the mid field. one of the forwards for the other team took a shot at her pretty late after she dumped the ball in the defensive third to her outside back, and i waited and watched and allowed advantage. at half time, one of the critiques i got was that i shouldn't have allowed that advantage because there really wasn't any advantage to it. the ball is mired back in the defensive half of the field, go ahead and give the free kick. ok... so later in the game, halfway through the second half, same sort of thing happened, and for the third or fourth time the forward took a really late shot at the center back. so i immediately stopped play, gave a yellow for PI, and i could hear the the coach screaming at me. the center back had hit it long and picked out a winger flying down the touchline. i should have waited, watched, and given advantage there, then went back and carded the forward. after the game we talked about that too....... it's always a learning experience, and each play, no matter how similar it may look, can be very different.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 5, 2016)

baldref said:


> it's definitely something that comes with experience to know when or when not to allow advantage. i was doing the ecnl playoffs last july i think it was, and one of the great things about being allowed to referee those types of games is that you get to work with many very high level and very knowledgeable and proficient referees. i had a center in a girls 17 game, and on one line i had a national referee, and on the other a very experienced state referee and assessor. you always ask for feed back from these types of referees to learn and discuss the finer points of the games. one team had a great big center back that swept up just about everything, and would distribute to the mid field. one of the forwards for the other team took a shot at her pretty late after she dumped the ball in the defensive third to her outside back, and i waited and watched and allowed advantage. at half time, one of the critiques i got was that i shouldn't have allowed that advantage because there really wasn't any advantage to it. the ball is mired back in the defensive half of the field, go ahead and give the free kick. ok... so later in the game, halfway through the second half, same sort of thing happened, and for the third or fourth time the forward took a really late shot at the center back. so i immediately stopped play, gave a yellow for PI, and i could hear the the coach screaming at me. the center back had hit it long and picked out a winger flying down the touchline. i should have waited, watched, and given advantage there, then went back and carded the forward. after the game we talked about that too....... it's always a learning experience, and each play, no matter how similar it may look, can be very different.


What a horrible ref you are. You blew the game for them. They would have scored and won. You should quit now. Did you return your pay? 

Or, way to try to protect a player, assess your call and get better.


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## baldref (Oct 5, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> What a horrible ref you are. You blew the game for them. They would have scored and won. You should quit now. Did you return your pay?
> 
> Or, way to try to protect a player, assess your call and get better.


Exactly. Just trying to make the point that the more times you're in that situation in high level games, the better you get at assessing the situation and "trying" to do the right thing for the game. 
A good lesson in trying to make decisions just a bit slower. A late correct call is way better than a quick call that's less correct

And to be perfectly honest, I'd do those kind of games for free any time. So much fun in the middle of a game like that


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## coachrefparent (Oct 5, 2016)

The best part about these threads, and every other comment found on the internet in any form, is the lack of relative reference and perspective. 

I am a parent, a coach, and a (shh) referee. Reading the comments of many lunatics on various forums is a bit hilarious. Especially when you see FIFA refs blowing clear calls in the world's biggest sport, in the biggest games of the year. And NFL referees that make over $10,000 per game blow numerous calls per game, that have to be corrected (sometimes) by other referees that get to watch views from 25 cameras in HD slowed down to split second frames at a time.  

But of course, all youth soccer referee mistakes are forgiven if your team wins.


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## Striker17 (Oct 6, 2016)

Enjoy! SEVEN YEAR OLD SOCCER. The brawl started over a header lol 

http://www.10news.com/news/pepper-spray-deployed-during-parent-brawl-at-encanto-soccer-game


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 6, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> Enjoy! SEVEN YEAR OLD SOCCER. The brawl started over a header lol
> 
> http://www.10news.com/news/pepper-spray-deployed-during-parent-brawl-at-encanto-soccer-game


Hmmm, something missing in this video. Anyone?


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## Laced (Oct 6, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> This is a big thing for new soccer parents to understand.   Definitely it is partly cultural for Americans.  All but a very few addicted soccer fans ever watched professional soccer on TV.  But we all have tons of experience watching American sports, where foul calls are much different.  Football refs will often avoid calling holding penalties if the hold happened away from the action and did not influence the play, but for the most part, because of the way the game is played, any foul is an big advantage for the cheat (in football, the play continues and you can even decline the penalty), so they have to call what they see.  This was hard to grasp at first when I started watching my kid play.  Once I understood the above, some of the no calls made a whole lot more sense.  Of course now that I get it, it just means I can scream "HEY REF!  PLAY THE ADVANTAGE!" when they do call a foul they shouldn't have.  Poor refs.  LOL


Ignorance of the game doesn't explain bad sideline behavior. In Europe where people have a pretty good understanding of the game and rules, touchline abuse even violence is a lot more common. Americans generally understand basketball, football and baseball, yet sideline behavior is not better. It's arguably worse. Even in our nicer and gentler neighbor Canada, sideline behavior is an issue. When refs berate parents for their ignorance of the game or rules or try to "educate" them, their focus is misplaced really.


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## baldref (Oct 6, 2016)

Laced said:


> Ignorance of the game doesn't explain bad sideline behavior. In Europe where people have a pretty good understanding of the game and rules, touchline abuse even violence is a lot more common. Americans generally understand basketball, football and baseball, yet sideline behavior is not better. It's arguably worse. Even in our nicer and gentler neighbor Canada, sideline behavior is an issue. When refs berate parents for their ignorance of the game or rules or try to "educate" them, their focus is misplaced really.


your focus is misplaced, that's for sure. refs berate parents for their ignorance of the rules?


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## Laced (Oct 6, 2016)

baldref said:


> your focus is misplaced, that's for sure. refs berate parents for their ignorance of the rules?


Did you not disparage parents the moment they disagree with you? Did you not say "You know nothing?" Did you not repeatedly claim to be "very good at it" whatever the issue. Of course, you have an entry-level license.


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## baldref (Oct 6, 2016)

Laced said:


> Did you not disparage parents the moment they disagree with you? Did you not say "You know nothing?" Did you not repeatedly claim to be "very good at it" whatever the issue. Of course, you have an entry-level license.


you're not embarrassed by the things you say? i actually am embarrassed for you. 

anyway..... have a nice day.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 11, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Once again people make a big deal out of nothing.  In addition to enforcing the holy "laws of the game" , soccer referees have some opinion that they are responsible to enforce morality, and manners when it comes to the crowd.  If you think American parents and spectators are passionate about soccer, try going to a game in South America or Europe.  Refs need to get a little less concerned with what is said on the sidelines and concentrate on the people playing the game.  If as a ref you have a problem taking some guff from fans/spectators/parents maybe you are in the wrong line of work.  Most refs i watch do a good job, they miss some calls that they probably should get but hey for the most part they do the best they can.  The ones that I find amusing is the ones that have no tolerance for any type of what they perceive as disrespect or questioning.  They are more worried about whether someones shirt is tucked in or some parent yelled than if the player is out of bounds.  I am one of the "let them play" types because I believe soccer is a contact sport and sometimes people get hurt.  When my daughter complains of someone grabbing her shirt or pushing her in the back, I am the guy who says quit your whining and elbow her in the nose next time.   I guess that makes me part of the problem..it a "beautiful game" not a rugby match or hockey...


I suggest you read up on Parents Code of Conduct and perhaps try to adhere to it. And before you spring that "South America or Europe" thing again, I would let you know I have refereed in both places and the spectators (who are usually not just confined to parents only unlike here), are not even half as ignorant, not to mention in South America they are so far away that who cares what they say anyway?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 11, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> You obviously don't know me, I maybe say ten words at a soccer game.  I have never talked to a ref during a game in the 8 years or so that my kids have been playing.  I don't even really like soccer to be honest because of the attitude of many in the sport.  I am the guy that brings my kid, sits in my chair and watches and gets up and leaves when the game is over.  i have been known to miss stuff that happens when i am reading the paper or checking my phone or chatting with someone from another game going on behind me.  I am not one of the problem parents you guys have so much heartburn with.  I think my total contact with my kids coach has been something like, "how u doing, hot today huh, or good game today."  But, it doesn't take a soccer expert, or a referee card to see when a ref is so insecure or full of them self to let stuff go.  All they do is make the situation worse.  The problem with our society, we have turned into a bunch of candy asses who need to make sure that no one gets bullied or nobody gets their feelings hurt or disrespected.   didn't your mamma ever tell you that "sticks and stones can break your bones but word can't hurt you?"  I go to many high school football games, many of my neighbors and friend's kid's baseball games, the basketball tournaments, etc .  I never see the officials worry about what the crowd says.  Not once have I seen a football ref stop a game because someone in the bleachers was vocal about the call.  I see it at youth soccer games all the time.  I never encourage my kid to be an ass, in fact she knows better.  Not once has she ever talked back or disrespected a ref, but she will not be a helpless victim either, who has to depend the the ref, a teacher or anyone else to protect her from harm.  My daughter is a respectful warrior if anything else.  I think you need to find another line of work bald ref, This kids soccer too rough for you.  Some soccer mamma gonna question your manhood or something.....wow haven't typed that much since college


I have never seen a soccer referee stop a game either because someone in the "bleachers" was vocal about a call. Where did you see this?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 11, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Their are good refs and refs . Good calls vs bad calls.  What I want is a review board for theses refs to have a standard.  You have calsouth in Thier golf carts observing the parents but what about the refs. I know refs don't like hear it but come on. Their needs to be system.


There IS a system. There has always been.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 11, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The fact that the refs that frequent this site get so defensive and are so quick try and deflect any bit of criticism proves the point that many on here are trying to get across.  Every time someone on here questions anything a ref does there is a little clique of refs that all jump in and immediately start posting counter points like you insulted there mother or something.  This same dynamic is what many of us think is a problem.   Somebody's mom yells, "come on ref!"  or "no way" or "you need to call that"   etc and a alarm goes in there head, red star clusters fill the sky and they stop the game, (the same game that they say needs to flow so they don't make some calls) come over to the sideline, caution the coach or in many cases confront the perpetrator and exercise the authority given to them by the league, tournament or soccer god to nip the "abuse" in the bud.  simply because some spectator questioned their  call or lack of call. Don't you guys see what the complaint is?  I know I just dont get it.......


Why would there have been a need to nip anything in the bud had parents simply adhered to the code of conduct they signed on to? 

And you're right; you just don't get it.


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## jdiaz (Oct 12, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> There IS a system. There has always been.


Why is it that coaches and DOC'S don't know of this system.  There's different classes to take for different levels of referee . So explain why in the last year's referee's at games and tournaments are not at par or healthy a nuff to a be a ref.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 12, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Why would there have been a need to nip anything in the bud had parents simply adhered to the code of conduct they signed on to?
> 
> And you're right; you just don't get it.


And the fact that you do is the reason that my soccer fan career will last only as long as my daughter plays which is one more year.   As I have stated many times on here, I dont even like soccer and the only reason that I watch it is to watch my daughter.   The refs can chastise the "uneducated" fans, the coaches and clubs can offer up their hollow promises to make all the kids in into the next Mia Hamm, and the crazy parents can worry fret and brown nose to get their 10 year olds more playing time because college scouts may be watching.   Never got it, won't ever get it, and thankfully won't have to get it for very much longer.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 12, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> And the fact that you do is the reason that my soccer fan career will last only as long as my daughter plays which is one more year.   As I have stated many times on here, I dont even like soccer and the only reason that I watch it is to watch my daughter.   The refs can chastise the "uneducated" fans, the coaches and clubs can offer up their hollow promises to make all the kids in into the next Mia Hamm, and the crazy parents can worry fret and brown nose to get their 10 year olds more playing time because college scouts may be watching.   Never got it, won't ever get it, and thankfully won't have to get it for very much longer.


Good riddance!


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## Just a Parent (Oct 12, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Why is it that coaches and DOC'S don't know of this system.  There's different classes to take for different levels of referee . So explain why in the last year's referee's at games and tournaments are not at par or healthy a nuff to a be a ref.


We are not responsible for their ignorance.


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## jdiaz (Oct 12, 2016)

Were not responsible for yelling at the referee's for stupidity, out of shape and too old to run


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 12, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I have never seen a soccer referee stop a game either because someone in the "bleachers" was vocal about a call. Where did you see this?


Never? You gotta be kidding.
You should have been in San berdu a couple of weeks ago, parent was complaining about a call aggressively, ref stopped the game and kicked him out, warned the coach and the game resumed.


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## socalkdg (Oct 12, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Were not responsible for yelling at the referee's for stupidity, out of shape and too old to run


Were you talking about soccer referees or MLB Umpires?  NBA refs?   NFL refs?    Does anyone here watch professional sports?   Every sport sees mistakes during every game.  Why would soccer be any different.   Mistakes happen.  So what.   If a guy making $3000 per game makes a mistake, you think a $30 per game guy isn't going to do the same thing?   So far in both AYSO and Club, our teams have one loss that might be contributed to a bad call, and that was actually a parent for the other team providing the AR for a AYSO game.   So we have one loss, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Yes it is nice to win.  But it is even better to see improvement from your son or daughter's team.  Referees can't keep that from happening, in any sport.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 12, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Were you talking about soccer referees or MLB Umpires?  NBA refs?   NFL refs?    Does anyone here watch professional sports?   Every sport sees mistakes during every game.  Why would soccer be any different.   Mistakes happen.  So what.   If a guy making $3000 per game makes a mistake, you think a $30 per game guy isn't going to do the same thing?   So far in both AYSO and Club, our teams have one loss that might be contributed to a bad call, and that was actually a parent for the other team providing the AR for a AYSO game.   So we have one loss, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Yes it is nice to win.  But it is even better to see improvement from your son or daughter's team.  Referees can't keep that from happening, in any sport.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 12, 2016)

I am guessing that the NFL, MLB, and NBA all have a rule that refs decisions are final and that players and coaches should not question their decision, let alone the fans who like soccer fans are obviously the least educated and most abusive.  Amazing that they unlike the more sensitive and thin skinned soccer refs are able to somehow ignore the crowd and concentrate on the game.   Oh right the leagues have tasked the refs with enforcing the etiquette and sportsmanship part too.   And given them the strict "code of conduct" that soccer parents have to sign to back them up.


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## jdiaz (Oct 12, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Were you talking about soccer referees or MLB Umpires?  NBA refs?   NFL refs?    Does anyone here watch professional sports?   Every sport sees mistakes during every game.  Why would soccer be any different.   Mistakes happen.  So what.   If a guy making $3000 per game makes a mistake, you think a $30 per game guy isn't going to do the same thing?   So far in both AYSO and Club, our teams have one loss that might be contributed to a bad call, and that was actually a parent for the other team providing the AR for a AYSO game.   So we have one loss, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Yes it is nice to win.  But it is even better to see improvement from your son or daughter's team.  Referees can't keep that from happening, in any sport.


Sorry buddy make your thread related arguments on AYSO.  They're not to compare. AYSO referees are parents that don't get paid and is required to(parents) ref games in AYSO region . Nice try!!!


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## soccercrazy (Oct 12, 2016)

Sentient Being said:


> Here we go again, every year it's the same thing. Let's bash all the refs!! They're fat, lazy, don't know the rules, egotistical, bad knees, out of shape......
> 
> You guys, ( and I'm talking to the thousands of people on this forum) but really I'm talking to YOU... Why don't you do something about it. You know the the rules, your in shape, your in the prime of your life. Your a male between the age of 35-50, you have weekends off and are a reliable, intelligent guy. Why don't you step up and become a ref!! Why don't you step up and help foster this fledgling game of soccer here in the USA that you all believe should be a the same level as the European nations. Step up, give up your weekends, go run around in the heat, on crappy fields and listen to guys like you yell at you for 4 hours a day for basically minimum wage. Why don't YOU step up and become a ref??
> 
> ...


Great post and agreed!  Our two daughters go to the refs after "EVERY" game, shake their hand and thank them for their service.  I don't see other girls do it, but it has become a habit for mine.  I like the idea of giving them water, so I will bring extra bottles of water in the future for those horribly hot days! Thank you!


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## socalkdg (Oct 12, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Sorry buddy make your thread related arguments on AYSO.  They're not to compare. AYSO referees are parents that don't get paid and is required to(parents) ref games in AYSO region . Nice try!!!


Read a bit better and you will see I said AYSO and Club.   Experiencing both this year.  Not much difference.  Both are human beings thus subject to mistakes and errors.  Professional referees in all sports make errors every game.  They get into arguments with coaches and players.  All sports, every game.  I've found I have less to complain about on the soccer field then I did on the basketball court or the baseball field.


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## jdiaz (Oct 12, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Read a bit better and you will see I said AYSO and Club.   Experiencing both this year.  Not much difference.  Both are human beings thus subject to mistakes and errors.  Professional referees in all sports make errors every game.  They get into arguments with coaches and players.  All sports, every game.  I've found I have less to complain about on the soccer field then I did on the basketball court or the baseball field.


Yes there is a difference.  Calsouth making you a ref. AYSO certificate is different buddy


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## softwaretest (Oct 12, 2016)

jdiaz said:


> Yes there is a difference.  Calsouth making you a ref. AYSO certificate is different buddy


AYSO training is fine it's the parents on the sidelines that are killing everything and that's true for club and AYSO. By the way the people who are the worst on the sidelines are the same ones that refuse to help with anything at AYSO or club. That's the point of the thread. Honestly take your whole I hate AYSO to another thread. I'm tired of people from both organizations acting high and mighty. From the Club side it's AYSO sucks and from the AYSO side we got that message my club kid isn't welcome in your league.

I suggest before any of you complain about referee's again you referee a game anywhere. Once I did that I gained a much better understanding as you can't see nearly as much in the middle of the field as you can on the sideline that's why referee's miss many of the things we see.


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## timbuck (Oct 12, 2016)

Did you know that a referee with an AYSO "intermediate" badge is able to transfer that certificate to a "grade 8" badge and work the club circuit?  
Many people do both. These are people that enjoy the game and enjoy giving young people an opportunity to play soccer. 
I don't think many are doing it for the money. $30-$40 just isn't enough money to be away from your family while getting yelled at by soccer moms.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 12, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Never? You gotta be kidding.
> You should have been in San berdu a couple of weeks ago, parent was complaining about a call aggressively, ref stopped the game and kicked him out, warned the coach and the game resumed.


I have refereed in San Bernardino for many years. I have never seen any bleachers in that venue.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 13, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I have refereed in San Bernardino for many years. I have never seen any bleachers in that venue.


Check out the west end right in the middle. They are not very big but they are there. BTW, I am not down on the refs.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Check out the west end right in the middle. They are not very big but they are there. BTW, I am not down on the refs.


How dare you question the ref? Don't you know that is abuse and won't be tolerated?  You are gonna get kicked out of here...


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## Just a Parent (Oct 13, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> How dare you question the ref? Don't you know that is abuse and won't be tolerated?  You are gonna get kicked out of here...


You may not know it, but you just accurately stated the cal south code of conduct. 

I just wish more referees would enforce it.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 13, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Check out the west end right in the middle. They are not very big but they are there. BTW, I am not down on the refs.


On average, what percentage of parents use them on any given game?


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## wildcat66 (Oct 14, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> On average, what percentage of parents use them on any given game?


  that is the kind of answer you would expect from a soccer ref.  Most would call it a bleacher but if only a few used it then maybe we could apply advantage and it wouldn't be a bleacher , how old is the bleacher? depending on its skill level it may or may not be a bleacher.  Was it intentional that the people put it there meant it as a bleacher or did they intend it to be simply benches close together for seats .......and you better not call it a bleacher if the refs call it a bench...that is abusive behavior.  It could get you removed from the field, especially if it is a youth ref calling it a bench not a bleacher...


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## baldref (Oct 14, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> that is the kind of answer you would expect from a soccer ref.  Most would call it a bleacher but if only a few used it then maybe we could apply advantage and it wouldn't be a bleacher , how old is the bleacher? depending on its skill level it may or may not be a bleacher.  Was it intentional that the people put it there meant it as a bleacher or did they intend it to be simply benches close together for seats .......and you better not call it a bleacher if the refs call it a bench...that is abusive behavior.  It could get you removed from the field, especially if it is a youth ref calling it a bench not a bleacher...


so much anger and hate. i feel bad for you.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 14, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> that is the kind of answer you would expect from a soccer ref.  Most would call it a bleacher but if only a few used it then maybe we could apply advantage and it wouldn't be a bleacher , how old is the bleacher? depending on its skill level it may or may not be a bleacher.  Was it intentional that the people put it there meant it as a bleacher or did they intend it to be simply benches close together for seats .......and you better not call it a bleacher if the refs call it a bench...that is abusive behavior.  It could get you removed from the field, especially if it is a youth ref calling it a bench not a bleacher...


How many times, on average, has anyone used them, say, in the last ten years during a game?


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## espola (Oct 14, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> that is the kind of answer you would expect from a soccer ref.  Most would call it a bleacher but if only a few used it then maybe we could apply advantage and it wouldn't be a bleacher , how old is the bleacher? depending on its skill level it may or may not be a bleacher.  Was it intentional that the people put it there meant it as a bleacher or did they intend it to be simply benches close together for seats .......and you better not call it a bleacher if the refs call it a bench...that is abusive behavior.  It could get you removed from the field, especially if it is a youth ref calling it a bench not a bleacher...


Actually, it is the kind of answer one would expect from JaP.  Don't confuse him with the referee you usually see at your children's games.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 14, 2016)

baldref said:


> so much anger and hate. i feel bad for you.


I would give him a break. He is just frustrated that someone called him on his lie that soccer referees dismiss people from the bleachers.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 14, 2016)

espola said:


> Actually, it is the kind of answer one would expect from JaP.  Don't confuse him with the referee you usually see at your children's games.


It appears this thread may yet turn out to be fun.


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## Kopi (Oct 14, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> On average, what percentage of parents use them on any given game?





Just a Parent said:


> How many times, on average, has anyone used them, say, in the last ten years during a game?


What does it matter? You said there weren't any bleachers you were incorrect right?


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## espola (Oct 14, 2016)

Kopi said:


> What does it matter? You said there weren't any bleachers you were incorrect right?


Jap being shown to be wrong is where the JaP word games begin.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 14, 2016)

Kopi said:


> What does it matter? You said there weren't any bleachers you were incorrect right?[/QUOTE





Kopi said:


> What does it matter? You said there weren't any bleachers you were incorrect right?


I said there weren't any bleachers because there aren't. 

I also said I have never seen any soccer referee dismiss anyone from the bleachers. I haven't.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 14, 2016)

espola said:


> Jap being shown to be wrong is where the JaP word games begin.


Does anyone know how to get the laughing emoticon?


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## coachrefparent (Oct 14, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> that is the kind of answer you would expect from a soccer ref.  Most would call it a bleacher but if only a few used it then maybe we could apply advantage and it wouldn't be a bleacher , how old is the bleacher? depending on its skill level it may or may not be a bleacher.  Was it intentional that the people put it there meant it as a bleacher or did they intend it to be simply benches close together for seats .......and you better not call it a bleacher if the refs call it a bench...that is abusive behavior.  It could get you removed from the field, especially if it is a youth ref calling it a bench not a bleacher...


JAP has generally in the past been a bit [...] but these posts are particularly direct. Is the San Berdardino complex you refer to at  *2500 PACIFIC ST, HIGHLAND, CA 92346? Or another location?*


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## wildcat66 (Oct 15, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> JAP has generally in the past been a bit [...] but these posts are particularly direct. Is the San Berdardino complex you refer to at  *2500 PACIFIC ST, HIGHLAND, CA 92346? Or another location?*


Ask sheriff joe he was the guy who referred to the bleachers in SB.  I merely have said that the answer when told where the bleachers were, was silly.   In my other post I should have referred to sidelines not bleachers as I have never seen refs in other youth sports dismiss spectators for their comments from the "sidelines" for their comments.  They just tune out the crowd.  I understand that the refs feel empowered by the code of conduct but I assume most other sports have similar codes.  I know the high schools have codes of conduct for athletics.   It just seems to me that youth soccer refs have a hyper sensitivity to crowd comments unlike the refs of other sports .   As I have stated many times I have never engaged a ref in a game let alone questioned there decision.  I have witnessed it happen many times, and in almost all the cases, if the ref had just ignored the person, coach etc and kept the game going the incident would have resulted in nothing vice an ejection, card, argument.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 16, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Ask sheriff joe he was the guy who referred to the bleachers in SB.  I merely have said that the answer when told where the bleachers were, was silly.   In my other post I should have referred to sidelines not bleachers as I have never seen refs in other youth sports dismiss spectators for their comments from the "sidelines" for their comments.  They just tune out the crowd.  I understand that the refs feel empowered by the code of conduct but I assume most other sports have similar codes.  I know the high schools have codes of conduct for athletics.   It just seems to me that youth soccer refs have a hyper sensitivity to crowd comments unlike the refs of other sports .   As I have stated many times I have never engaged a ref in a game let alone questioned there decision.  I have witnessed it happen many times, and in almost all the cases, if the ref had just ignored the person, coach etc and kept the game going the incident would have resulted in nothing vice an ejection, card, argument.


So, you want referees to ignore competition rules? What other rules would you suggest they ignore as well?

But leave alone youth sports. How about professional sports? What do you think will happen if a spectator leaves his seat and gets to the sideline to question the referee or AR? How many comments do you guess he will make? Do you think he will watch the remainder of the match from that point?


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## wildcat66 (Oct 16, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> So, you want referees to ignore competition rules? What other rules would you suggest they ignore as well?
> 
> But leave alone youth sports. How about professional sports? What do you think will happen if a spectator leaves his seat and gets to the sideline to question the referee or AR? How many comments do you guess he will make? Do you think he will watch the remainder of the match from that point?


In most sports the spectators are policed/monitored by the venue, i.e. Security, stadium staff etc not the referees.  I just think refs spend too much time and effort doing that part of their tasking wether directed to or not.  Is guessing that those rules were developed by the leagues, cal south, tournaments in order to promote sportsmanship and good will for the parents who desire a more "civilized, cultured,  and wholesome" atmosphere for their kids.  I guess I would prefer that type of stuff is self taught and not legislated by the league.  Of course I am somewhat. Barbaric and less civilized than most.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 16, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> In most sports the spectators are policed/monitored by the venue, i.e. Security, stadium staff etc not the referees.  I just think refs spend too much time and effort doing that part of their tasking wether directed to or not.  Is guessing that those rules were developed by the leagues, cal south, tournaments in order to promote sportsmanship and good will for the parents who desire a more "civilized, cultured,  and wholesome" atmosphere for their kids.  I guess I would prefer that type of stuff is self taught and not legislated by the league.  Of course I am somewhat. Barbaric and less civilized than most.


In soccer, referees are still responsible for sideline conduct regardless of the venue.

But speaking for myself, I don't care what the reasons are behind this. My job is to simply enforce competitition rules. Control of sideline is the easiest of all my tasks and takes the least time.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 19, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I['m] guessing that those rules were developed by the leagues, cal south, tournaments *in order to promote sportsmanship and good will *for the parents who desire a more "civilized, cultured,  and wholesome" atmosphere for their kids.


Yes, why on earth would we want this as opposed to (mostly) clueless people challenging, insulting and otherwise yelling the whole match (over which way a throw in should go, no less)?


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## Laced (Oct 19, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Yes, why on earth would we want this as opposed to (mostly) clueless people challenging, insulting and otherwise yelling the whole match (over which way a throw in should go, no less)?


How's parents' ignorance of the game relevant to abuse? Abuse is abuse regardless whether the parent knows the game or not. If it's abuse, refs have the authority to throw them out and that's that.

"How's that a foul?" or "Our call" are annoying and obnoxious but are not abusive. These are mistakes just like refs' bad calls, or mistakes about game lengths or reentry rules. Spectators in other sports boo refs, question their calls, but game goes on. There's no reason why soccer refs need bubble wraps any more than refs in other sports.


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## socalkdg (Oct 20, 2016)

We had a girl on defense get knocked down 3 times by the forward that she was guarding.   About a 6" and 30LB difference.  Call could go either way.   Nothing called.  Couple times our coach would say "she is shoving her with her arm", but nothing more than that.  About the 4th time the girl ran right through our girl, who doesn't get up, and the referee called it.   The opposing sideline went crazy.   Referee warned them.  Understand we are on the opposite side and can hear their yelling.   One guy(parent/coach not sure) then yells  something like "we are paying you guys start refereeing correctly(maybe not as nice and I put it)" and the referee threw him out.

To me, the parents/coaches on the sidelines are setting bad examples.  Its one thing to make a quick comment about something, but parents and coaches need to get over it.  The referee seemed to ignore simple comments from both sides and kept the play going.  When it started getting over the top, and then the integrity of the referee was called into question, they were thrown out.   I've seen a coach throw a stop watch into the chest of a referee,  cops called on a assistant coach, foul language that just won't stop from parents.  I've asked my daughter what she thinks of everything going on, and she feels embarrassed for some of the coaches and parents.    

Note this has occurred at high school football games my older daughter cheers at, and at basketball games where all the parents for one team were thrown out.  I've noticed that the coaches set an example for the parents.  If they see the coach act a certain way, they start acting the same way.  In the heat of the moment you might make a comment, but then we parents need to close our mouths and get back to the game.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 20, 2016)

The implications that most parents are clueless always comes up.  Can't speak for all teams, but many of the ref "abusers" that I know aren't the clueless ones.  They are the former college players, current and former coaches and current and former refs.  People who have been around the sport for a while.  One of the most vocal parents from my daughters team is actually a current ref who has been doing for a while, not a clueless soccer mom.


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## Kopi (Oct 20, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The implications that most parents are clueless always comes up.  Can't speak for all teams, but many of the ref "abusers" that I know aren't the clueless ones.  They are the former college players, current and former coaches and current and former refs.  People who have been around the sport for a while.  One of the most vocal parents from my daughters team is actually a current ref who has been doing for a while, not a clueless soccer mom.


Wait for it.... Here come the refs lol!!


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## jrcaesar (Oct 20, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> One of the most vocal parents from my daughters team is actually a current ref who has been doing for a while, not a clueless soccer mom.


I don't know what's more offensive here, using the term "clueless soccer mom" or suggesting that a referee is badgering another referee during your daughter's games?


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## socalkdg (Oct 21, 2016)

Watched the USA / Swiss game.   US player called offside.  If not called had a break away.  In the replay she was about 1 yard onside.  AR was about 2 yards behind the play.   If these referees make mistakes, club referees are going to make mistakes.  I'll take a referee that keeps play going, no one gets hurt, and each team gets about the same good and bad calls.   Always had trouble with Umpires when the daughter was still playing baseball and softball.  It would be 2 feet outside and they would call it a strike.  Your 9 year old then swings at a ball that far out and strikes out because of the last pitch.   She bats twice.   Great fun.


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## Laced (Oct 21, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Watched the USA / Swiss game.   US player called offside.  If not called had a break away.  In the replay she was about 1 yard onside.  AR was about 2 yards behind the play.   If these referees make mistakes, club referees are going to make mistakes.  I'll take a referee that keeps play going, no one gets hurt, and each team gets about the same good and bad calls.   Always had trouble with Umpires when the daughter was still playing baseball and softball.  It would be 2 feet outside and they would call it a strike.  Your 9 year old then swings at a ball that far out and strikes out because of the last pitch.   She bats twice.   Great fun.


Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.


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## SCS Fan (Oct 21, 2016)

The passage below is from the Cal South Code of Conduct, clubs and leagues have similar statements.  In many cases parents sign an agreement with their clubs agreeing to abide by these codes of conduct when joining the club.  This statement is crystal clear and it's in the best interest of everyone that this Code of Conduct be followed.
*
Parents and Spectators

*
The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in

"coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence

the makeup of the team at any time. Every parent and spectator is expected to:

• Learn and respect the rules of soccer and the rules of the CYSA-South.

• Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.

• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from


addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.

• Cheer for your child's team in a positive manner, refraining at all times from making


negative or abusive remarks about the opposing team. Maintain control of your emotions

and avoid actions, language, and/or gestures that may be interpreted as hostile and

humiliating.

• Ensure that your child is at all games and practices at the required time or provide the


coach with an appropriate excuse beforehand.

• Demonstrate appropriate gestures of sportsmanship at the conclusion of a game, win or


lose.

• Teach and practice good sportsmanship and fair play by personally demonstrating


commitment to these virtues.

• Promote the concept that soccer is merely a game, and that players and coaches on


other teams are opponents, not enemies.


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## Surfref (Oct 21, 2016)

I think one of the problems is that there are not enough experienced referees (10+ years of experience) to match up with the higher level games (U15 and above) which means the lower level/younger games get the inexperienced refs.  Most of these U15 and above games have spectators/parents that have been involved with soccer for a number of years and rarely yell at the referee.  If the more experienced referees are assigned primarily to these U15 and above, then the U14 and below games get the less experienced or new referees that are more likely to make mistakes and get yelled at by the spectators.  Some of these inexperienced referees have not learned how to deal with the loud spectator other than warn them then remove them.  No one likes to get yelled at.  Most experienced referees know to just ignore the comments unless it somehow interferes with play such as players repeating the comments of the spectators.


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## socalkdg (Oct 21, 2016)

Laced said:


> Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.


Your spelling is off.  Use auto-correct next time.        I'm saying the referees I've dealt with don't have a problem with a single word and do let the flow of the game continue.   Sounds like you end up with a different type of referee.   Here is the real question, when the referee comes to the sideline and tells the parents to quiet down, do they say ok, or argue back?   I've found being polite works well in this situation.


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## Laced (Oct 22, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Your spelling is off.  Use auto-correct next time.        I'm saying the referees I've dealt with don't have a problem with a single word and do let the flow of the game continue.   Sounds like you end up with a different type of referee.   Here is the real question, when the referee comes to the sideline and tells the parents to quiet down, do they say ok, or argue back?   I've found being polite works well in this situation.


I don't know what works well in this situation but why does this situation have to come up at all? A parent has a warped perspective when their kid gets knocked down. It's irrational yet understandable. Refs on the other hand don't have their own kids on the field, and therefore they can be expected to be rational and act like adults. When they take parents' shouts personal, they're no longer the only rational adults in the game. That's why I believe refs can avoid situations like the one you described by dismissing those comments as what they are. Simply because you got heckled a few weekends ago 50 miles away doesn't mean you should lecture a different group of parents before the game. Simple because some parent shouts "Foul" doesn't mean he/she is challenging your competence. It means no more than that the parent has the silly idea he/she can be the 12th man and can "work" the refs.


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## Laced (Oct 22, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I think one of the problems is that there are not enough experienced referees (10+ years of experience) to match up with the higher level games (U15 and above) which means the lower level/younger games get the inexperienced refs.  Most of these U15 and above games have spectators/parents that have been involved with soccer for a number of years and rarely yell at the referee.  If the more experienced referees are assigned primarily to these U15 and above, then the U14 and below games get the less experienced or new referees that are more likely to make mistakes and get yelled at by the spectators.  Some of these inexperienced referees have not learned how to deal with the loud spectator other than warn them then remove them.  No one likes to get yelled at.  Most experienced referees know to just ignore the comments unless it somehow interferes with play such as players repeating the comments of the spectators.


I don't think refs' competence is the issue. Most of the refs do an adequate job. The issue is lack of a forgiving attitude toward others' reasonable mistakes. Refs can't get all the calls right yet some parents expect them to. Parents can't act rationally when their kids are on the field, yet some refs expect them to be quiet like they're watching an opera.


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## Jairzinho (Oct 23, 2016)

Threads like this are proof this forum was better off being shut down. Develop thick skin or don't ref. Better yet, if you never played then don't bother becoming a ref. Yes I'm talking to YOU. We already have way too many uneducated, incompetent refs in this country. Most of them, like these big mouth parents who think their kid is Gods gift to the game, should just stay home. The game doesn't need YOU. Moreover, YOU (and your sense of entitlement) are the reason why this game can't evolve in this country. 

Have a nice day!wicked1


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## SCS Fan (Oct 24, 2016)

Troll!


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## Surfref (Oct 24, 2016)

Laced said:


> I don't think refs' competence is the issue. Most of the refs do an adequate job. The issue is lack of a forgiving attitude toward others' reasonable mistakes. Refs can't get all the calls right yet some parents expect them to. Parents can't act rationally when their kids are on the field, yet some refs expect them to be quiet like they're watching an opera.


This is in reference to youth games with spectators sitting on the sidelines.  Spectators sitting the bleachers/stands of a stadium are usually too far away for me to understand what they are saying.  I expect spectators to cheer for their team and say something when they think I missed a call or made a bad call.  I expect to get yelled at every time I make a foul call or not make a call.  Someone will disagree with every call I make or don't make, even if it is obvious I made the correct decision.  I am okay with that.  The majority (99 percent) of spectators will yell one maybe two comments then drop it.  The problem occurs when those 1 percent of spectators continuously yell at me.  My primary threshold is when I have players either repeat what the spectator is saying or the spectator starts directing comments at the players from the other team.  That is when I address the issue with the coach.  Most coaches already know  the problem parents.  A good coach will shut that parent up before I even have to stop the game and talk to the coach.  When I have to talk to the coach about a spectator it is the ultimatum talk.  "Coach, am I really going to have to remove you from the game or are you going to take care of the guy in the red shirt?"  Remember coaches are responsible for their spectators.  At that point most coaches will tell the spectator to leave.  This works well for both the coach and I, since the coach removed the spectator I do not have to write a report and the coach can use me as the bad guy that got rid of the spectator.  I have had many coaches thank me for asking them to take care of a spectator because that spectator usually also annoys the crap out of the coach.

As a referee, I have to adjust how I call a game based on how the players are playing and their comments toward me.  As spectators, you need to adjust the comments you make toward the referee by what they will allow.  If a referee says no more comments or talks to the coach about the spectators, than keep your mouth shut.  If you poke a rattlesnake with a stick, they will strike.  If you annoy the referee, they will send you to your car.  Just be smart about what you say, how you say it, how often you say it and how loud you say it.  If you do that, most referees will not have a problem with your comments.  Yes, I have seen referees remove spectators for just one comment.  These are usually newer and less experienced referees.


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## Laced (Oct 24, 2016)

Surfref said:


> If you *annoy *the referee, they will send you to your car.


This is exactly where we disagree. We don't disagree with regard to abusive sideline behavior. You have the authority to eject parents for abusive comments but not annoying comments. What annoys you annoys the rest of us too, but the rules protect  you from abuse but they don't protect your sensitivities. When you stop a game just because a comment annoys you, you're overstepping your authority, just like a cop who closes down a freeway for one driver's minor infraction.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 24, 2016)

Laced said:


> When you stop a game *just because a comment annoys you*, you're overstepping your authority, *just like a cop who closes down a freeway for one driver's minor infraction*.


And each of those things occur at about the same frequency.


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## Surfref (Oct 25, 2016)

Laced said:


> This is exactly where we disagree. We don't disagree with regard to abusive sideline behavior. You have the authority to eject parents for abusive comments but not annoying comments. What annoys you annoys the rest of us too, but the rules protect  you from abuse but they don't protect your sensitivities. When you stop a game just because a comment annoys you, you're overstepping your authority, just like a cop who closes down a freeway for one driver's minor infraction.


Since you want to play word games, let me change the wording for you.  "If you do not respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner, you will be sent to the parking lot."  That wording was taken straight out of the Cal South Ethics for parents and spectators.  Cal South gives me the authority to not only have a spectator removed for abusive comments, but for just questioning my decisions or making loud or disrespectful comments.  If a comment annoys me, it is because I felt that it was disrespectful.  And, I do have the authority to remove spectators from youth games if I feel their comments are disrespectful (annoying).


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## Hüsker Dü (Oct 25, 2016)

Our 'club' model is flawed. 99% of 'club' play is at a rec level, if all involved would understand this it would be better. Relax.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 25, 2016)

We all understand that the league, cal south, tournament etc has given you the authority....it just seems that some consistency needs to happen within the ref community.  One team will rarely call anything, ignore spectator comments, and let them play.   The next bunch is hyper sensitve to every peep from the sidelines, calls every contact a foul, and would prefer to have no spectators at all.   Respect is earned by being professional, competent, and calling a good game, not something that should be mandated by the controlling agency.   That type of respect is never genuine and doesn't work, hence the crazy parents and coaches.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 25, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> That type of respect is never genuine and doesn't work, hence the crazy parents and coaches.


Friend of mine, whenever we catch up on how our kids' teams are doing, always tells me how his son's 13U team gets screwed by the referees ("as usual"). He fails to recognize that his coach is a jerk to other coaches and to referees, spends most games complaining, and that their parent sidelines are quick to yell and holler about fouls, non-fouls, and everything else that occurs during the game (no coach control). So which respect needs to comes first?


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## Laced (Oct 25, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Since you want to play word games, let me change the wording for you.  "If you do not respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner, you will be sent to the parking lot."  That wording was taken straight out of the Cal South Ethics for parents and spectators.  Cal South gives me the authority to not only have a spectator removed for abusive comments, but for just questioning my decisions or making loud or disrespectful comments.  If a comment annoys me, it is because I felt that it was disrespectful.  And, I do have the authority to remove spectators from youth games if I feel their comments are disrespectful (annoying).


The difference between "annoying" and "abusive" is just a word game to you? That may explain why you misread portions of LOTG


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## SCS Fan (Oct 26, 2016)

Just to make it a little easier for some here - From Cal-South Code of conduct:

• Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from
addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.


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## Laced (Oct 27, 2016)

SCS Fan said:


> Just to make it a little easier for some here - From Cal-South Code of conduct:
> 
> • Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
> • Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from
> addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.


What you're citing is irrelevant as nobody is disputing that abusers should be ejected. Likewise, it's irrelevant that it's a ref's responsibility to check a player against the picture on the player card yet it's not properly done half of the time. Or a ref didn't know game lengths or reentry rules. The issue is how we deal with others mistakes.


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## Laced (Oct 27, 2016)

As I posted in another thread, it dawned on me why I wasn't getting my point across that abusers should be removed but referees shouldn't interrupt the game just to issue warnings. "The flow of the game" is not fully appreciated by most people who didn't grow up playing the game. The refs on this thread probably feel that it's better to stop the game and warn a few loud parents before things get out of hand. The tradition of soccer is that  you just don't stop games except when it's absolutely necessary.


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## SCS Fan (Oct 27, 2016)

Laced, I think you would make a great referee and I encourage you to take your passion on these issues one step further and get certified.  I understand personal situations sometimes seem to not afford time to be a referee but once certified you can pick and choose when and where to do games.  You might be surprised by the sense of self-accomplishment you get by properly calling a match and it's a great way to give back to the game.  If you have a player in their teens you can go through the process together.


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## Laced (Oct 27, 2016)

SCS Fan said:


> Laced, I think you would make a great referee and I encourage you to take your passion on these issues one step further and get certified.  I understand personal situations sometimes seem to not afford time to be a referee but once certified you can pick and choose when and where to do games.  You might be surprised by the sense of self-accomplishment you get by properly calling a match and it's a great way to give back to the game.  If you have a player in their teens you can go through the process together.


Thank you for the kind words. If anything, I'd want to be a volunteer coach. I have great regrets I didn't do that when my kids played AYSO


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

Laced said:


> How's parents' ignorance of the game relevant to abuse? Abuse is abuse regardless whether the parent knows the game or not. If it's abuse, refs have the authority to throw them out and that's that.
> 
> "How's that a foul?" or "Our call" are annoying and obnoxious but are not abusive. These are mistakes just like refs' bad calls, or mistakes about game lengths or reentry rules. Spectators in other sports boo refs, question their calls, but game goes on. There's no reason why soccer refs need bubble wraps any more than refs in other sports.


Why should soccer refs copy other sports' refs?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The implications that most parents are clueless always comes up.  Can't speak for all teams, but many of the ref "abusers" that I know aren't the clueless ones.  They are the former college players, current and former coaches and current and former refs.  People who have been around the sport for a while.  One of the most vocal parents from my daughters team is actually a current ref who has been doing for a while, not a clueless soccer mom.


Why has this referee remained clueless after doing this "for a while" as you say? Is there no one who could offer him help?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

Laced said:


> Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.


I find it hilarious that you blame the referee for enforcing competition rules by stopping the game and not the screaming maniac who caused the game to be stopped.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

Jairzinho said:


> Threads like this are proof this forum was better off being shut down. Develop thick skin or don't ref. Better yet, if you never played then don't bother becoming a ref. Yes I'm talking to YOU. We already have way too many uneducated, incompetent refs in this country. Most of them, like these big mouth parents who think their kid is Gods gift to the game, should just stay home. The game doesn't need YOU. Moreover, YOU (and your sense of entitlement) are the reason why this game can't evolve in this country.
> 
> Have a nice day!wicked1


It's been a while since we saw this degree of delusion.


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## Laced (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I find it hilarious that you blame the referee for enforcing competition rules by stopping the game and not the screaming maniac who caused the game to be stopped.


Competition rules gives referees the authority to remove abusive spectators. This is not in dispute. They don't give them the authority to stop the game at will just becaus they're annoyed.

The flow of the game is specifically mentioned in LOTG. There're no timeouts, no water breaks. The referees cannot reverse their decisions after restart, and are not to confer with each other constantly just to get calls right. Getting calls right is not important as the flow of the game. The rules are designed to keep any disruption of the game to the minimal. When a player appears injured, the referee only allows a very short period of time for him to be attended to, or he is removed from the field. There's no other sport where you're laying hurt on the ground, and the ref baiscally tells you to get your injured ass off the field, fast, so they can carry on.

When shouting doesn't rise to the level of abuser, those referees that stop games simply don't have any concept of "the flow of the game." Shouts of "Foul" or "Offside" are annoying but they don't justify a stoppage. Those sideline mistakes can be ignored just as referee mistakes. It's a referee's duty to maintain the flow of the game. When referees stop games to correct sideline comments that don't rise to the level of abuse, what they're doing is essentially the same as sideline misbehavior - overreaction to others mistakes.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

Laced said:


> Competition rules gives referees the authority to remove abusive spectators. This is not in dispute. They don't give them the authority to stop the game at will just becaus they're annoyed.
> 
> The flow of the game is specifically mentioned in LOTG. There're no timeouts, no water breaks. The referees cannot reverse their decisions after restart, and are not to confer with each other constantly just to get calls right. Getting calls right is not important as the flow of the game. The rules are designed to keep any disruption of the game to the minimal. When a player appears injured, the referee only allows a very short period of time for him to be attended to, or he is removed from the field. There's no other sport where you're laying hurt on the ground, and the ref baiscally tells you to get your injured ass off the field, fast, so they can carry on.
> 
> When shouting doesn't rise to the level of abuser, those referees that stop games simply don't have any concept of "the flow of the game." Shouts of "Foul" or "Offside" are annoying but they don't justify a stoppage. Those sideline mistakes can be ignored just as referee mistakes. It's a referee's duty to maintain the flow of the game. When referees stop games to correct sideline comments that don't rise to the level of abuse, what they're doing is essentially the same as sideline misbehavior - overreaction to others mistakes.


Perhaps you better read the "Code of Conduct" you signed. And when referees are doing their jobs right they are constantly conferring. They don't need to stop the game to do that.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Perhaps you better read the "Code of Conduct" you signed. And when referees are doing their jobs right they are constantly conferring. They don't need to stop the game to do that.


I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause  I never signed any paper work concerning him.
Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
> So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause  I never signed any paper work concerning him.
> Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
> You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."


It means your wife shouldn't complain when you're dismissed for acting maniacally.


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
> So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause  I never signed any paper work concerning him.
> Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
> You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."


Wildcat66,

Here is how it works:
  1. Clubs/Leagues rent the fields from cities or private parties.  The fields during those rental times are subject to the rules and regulations of Cal South, the respective Clubs/Leagues, and the City/Private party.

     a. In the case of a public park, the areas outside those areas rented and controlled by the Club/League remain subject to the rules of the park, but inside the area rented, guests (including "dog walkers") are subject to all the rules as noted above and may be removed by representatives of Cal South, the League (CSL, SCDSL, Presidio, etc.), the Club (Coach, Manager, etc.) or the Agent appointed by Cal South, the League or the Club also known as the Referee.

   b.  Most contracts/rental agreements provide that the "entire grass" area is rented, which means that the folks holding little Jenny's 4th birthday party near the playground are violating the Club/League's space when they set up their jumper on the corner of the grass field 70 feet from the soccer field.

  2. Folks in the vicinity of the fields (or on the areas rented) are subject to the rules regardless of whether they signed a form or not because for that time being, they are guests on property controlled by another (in legal speak they are "Licensees").

  3.  With respect to dogs, most leagues have a "no dogs" allowed policy.  So, if you are in a public park walking your dog, I recommend you watch the games from a distance because once you bring the dog within the areas rented/leased by the Club/League you are now subject to their rules and they can politely ask you to remove your dog from the area, stop being abusive, etc..


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## Hüsker Dü (Oct 28, 2016)

I prefer the European club system where parents are kept away from the whole process. Mostly drop off and pick up, then sit far away in the bleachers at games where they can't be heard as much.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 28, 2016)

1 more year.....1 more year...


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## espola (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> Wildcat66,
> 
> Here is how it works:
> 1. Clubs/Leagues rent the fields from cities or private parties.  The fields during those rental times are subject to the rules and regulations of Cal South, the respective Clubs/Leagues, and the City/Private party.
> ...


While ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, ignorance of  contract to which one is not a party certainly is.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I prefer the European club system where parents are kept away from the whole process. Mostly drop off and pick up, then sit far away in the bleachers at games where they can't be heard as much.


I prefer the South American model where coaches too are included in this except at half time and then have to return to the bleachers once the game restarts.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2016)

espola said:


> While ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, ignorance of  contract to which one is not a party certainly is.


At least you got the "ignorance" part in there.


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## Hüsker Dü (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I prefer the South American model where coaches too are included in this except at half time and then have to return to the bleachers once the game restarts.


When it comes down to it pick-up games with no coaches or refs are a good way to develop playing skills, but not often do we allow our children to play unsupervised in this country . . . and God forbid with strangers (which we all increasingly are)!


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

espola said:


> While ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, ignorance of  contract to which one is not a party certainly is.


In the context of "property rights," the rules are different than standard contract law.  Every participant at the park/field (except for the owner of the land) is acutely aware they are on a third party's property, be it private or public park.   So the rules are a little different here.  Public property is subject to various laws, codes, ordinances, etc., depending on Federal vs. State vs. County vs. City.  Private land is subject to laws explicitly giving rights to the private landholder to exclude people from their land.

When you are on land that you don't own, you should already know that you can be asked to leave that land by those with superior property rights ... its the law.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 28, 2016)

Probably going to the local high school football game tonight.  I wonder how manty spectators will be ejected due to their disagreement with a call.  I know, it's a stadium no a soccer field and one or two fans are much more abusive than 500.


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## espola (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> In the context of "property rights," the rules are different than standard contract law.  Every participant at the park/field (except for the owner of the land) is acutely aware they are on a third party's property, be it private or public park.   So the rules are a little different here.  Public property is subject to various laws, codes, ordinances, etc., depending on Federal vs. State vs. County vs. City.  Private land is subject to laws explicitly giving rights to the private landholder to exclude people from their land.
> 
> When you are on land that you don't own, you should already know that you can be asked to leave that land by those with superior property rights ... its the law.


I agree.  However, don't expect casual users to know that they are violating the license another party has acquired if that party makes no attempt to inform anyone.  If I were in a situation where my legal use of a public space were threatened by another group who insisted that I must leave because "it's the law", I would ask them to call the cops.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 28, 2016)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I prefer the European club system where parents are kept away from the whole process. Mostly drop off and pick up, then sit far away in the bleachers at games where they can't be heard as much.


Then please go back to where you came from.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Probably going to the local high school football game tonight.  I wonder how manty spectators will be ejected due to their disagreement with a call.  I know, it's a stadium no a soccer field and one or two fans are much more abusive than 500.


Of course no fan is ejected from a soccer game for disagreeing with a call. #strawman
But funny how you answer your own question knowing that the fans are so far away from the field at a HS football game, there is no comparison. And, I bet your game tonight will have security, off duty officers, administrators... so different.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2016)

espola said:


> I agree.  However, don't expect casual users to know that they are violating the license another party has acquired if that party makes no attempt to inform anyone.  If I were in a situation where my legal use of a public space were threatened by another group who insisted that I must leave because "it's the law", I would ask them to call the cops.


We actually have to do this occasionally when we can't clear our fields for training and games, even after we show them the City field contract.


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## outside! (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> We actually have to do this occasionally when we can't clear our fields for training and games, even after we show them the City field contract.


Way back when I was coaching U6 Rec I had an issue with some grownups batting balls onto our practice field. I walked over to them and explained that we had the field permit and to please stop batting until we were done. They gave me some lip. I once again explained that we had the field permit and added that we could call the police on them. They tried to call my bluff. I then said "See that group of moms over there? Do you think they will let you get to your car alive if you hit one of their kids?" They agreed to stop batting practice immediately.


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## Hüsker Dü (Oct 28, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Then please go back to where you came from.


Born and raised here in SoCal, and you? Just so you know, knowledge is not a bad thing to have, try it sometime.


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Probably going to the local high school football game tonight.  I wonder how manty spectators will be ejected due to their disagreement with a call.  I know, it's a stadium no a soccer field and one or two fans are much more abusive than 500.


Consider the following.  I recently heard from a Referee Assignor that the attrition rate among young referees (minors) is about 50 percent.  These young people get their Grade 8's and after about 1 season of serving as an AR or Ref at the club soccer level, drop out, never to be heard from again.  The 1st reason is A-Hole parents; the second reason is A-Hole coaches; the 3rd reason is A-Hole parents (see 1).

We have a problem.  Grown men and women think is cool to demean and degrade the kids in yellow doing the best job they can.  Sure, they get $31 for spending 140 minutes doing the best job they can and they do make mistakes.

A stadium setting is much different than an intimate sideline setting.  In the stadium the words are nothing more than background noise versus cutting like a knife in that U14 game hearing from the A-Hole Dad 10 feet away.  That 45 year old can take it and brush it off as the ramblings of an idiot (and laugh about it like I do), but that 13 or 15 year old AR is going to take it to heart.   They will run that sideline and finish the game and may leave that day and never come back.

Respect.  Its a word that some understand and some don't.  You can respect something without agreeing with it.  All we ask as parents, coaches and refs is Respect the game. Respect the players.  Respect the referees.  If a parent feels the need to disagree, at least be good natured and cool about it.  Its youth soccer after all.


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## wildcat66 (Oct 28, 2016)

Perhaps 15 is too young to do it then....


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## Laced (Oct 29, 2016)

MWN said:


> Consider the following.  I recently heard from a Referee Assignor that the attrition rate among young referees (minors) is about 50 percent.  These young people get their Grade 8's and after about 1 season of serving as an AR or Ref at the club soccer level, drop out, never to be heard from again.  The 1st reason is A-Hole parents; the second reason is A-Hole coaches; the 3rd reason is A-Hole parents (see 1).
> 
> We have a problem.  Grown men and women think is cool to demean and degrade the kids in yellow doing the best job they can.  Sure, they get $31 for spending 140 minutes doing the best job they can and they do make mistakes.
> 
> ...


How did the Referee Assignor arrived at the 50% attrition number? Is one season the time frame you seem to imply? Does it only include those who choose not to come back? When a parent shouts "That's a terrible call!" do you feel disrespected as a referee?


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## timbuck (Oct 29, 2016)

I am usually one to say "lay off of the referees, it's a thankless job and they don't get pad enough to deal with being yelled at over a kids games". 
But after today-  screw that.  To all of you refereees that suck-   Kiss my soccer balls.


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## baldref (Oct 29, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I am usually one to say "lay off of the referees, it's a thankless job and they don't get pad enough to deal with being yelled at over a kids games".
> But after today-  screw that.  To all of you refereees that suck-   Kiss my soccer balls.


I'm guessing you had a poor experience today


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## espola (Oct 29, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I am usually one to say "lay off of the referees, it's a thankless job and they don't get pad enough to deal with being yelled at over a kids games".
> But after today-  screw that.  To all of you refereees that suck-   Kiss my soccer balls.


I had a bad referee experience once, 2008, 2009 or so.  I was the team manager so I had to get the referee's signature on the game report forms.  I was so pissed I told myself to say nothing during the ritual, and I didn't, not even a  friendly greeting.  

I had been warned about the situation at that field by a friend who was manager of another team in the club.  Before the game I looked up the game records in the Presidio website and I saw that there were more red cards awarded there than anywhere else in the league, mostly to visiting teams.  I warned the players about it before the game, but we still got two red cards in the game, and a handful of yellows.

Everything the referee did was by the book, but the book has a lot of "opinion of the referee" in it.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Then please go back to where you came from.


And yet another idiotic "comment".


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I am usually one to say "lay off of the referees, it's a thankless job and they don't get pad enough to deal with being yelled at over a kids games".
> But after today-  screw that.  To all of you refereees that suck-   Kiss my soccer balls.


Speaking for myself, it is far from thankless and I don't consider it a job. I would do it even if I wasn't paid.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 29, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> And yet another idiotic "comment".


You can leave to.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You can leave to.


How disappointing it must be for the likes of you when none of your teenage pronouncements never come to pass.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 29, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I prefer the South American model where coaches too are included in this except at half time and then have to return to the bleachers once the game restarts.


Go


Hüsker Dü said:


> Born and raised here in SoCal, and you? Just so you know, knowledge is not a bad thing to have, try it sometime.


Move to Europe if you don't like our system.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 29, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> How disappointing it must be for the likes of you when none of your teenage pronouncements never come to pass.


You must be the worst kind of ref, never wrong and acting more important than you are, probably your wife runs the household so you need to be an authority figure when she isn't around. Beotch


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 29, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> How disappointing it must be for the likes of you when none of your teenage pronouncements never come to pass.


Aren't you the same idiot that was arguing about a bleacher not being at a field when a picture showed it was? Yes, you are a DH.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Aren't you the same idiot that was arguing about a bleacher not being at a field when a picture showed it was? Yes, you are a DH.


Actually, the reference was to bleachers, as in the difference between fans far away from the field at a high school football game that are hundreds of feet from the officials, versus youth soccer games where the parents/fans/uncles/dog walkers are feet from the officials. 

[Yes the SB complex has some 3 tier metal "bleachers" a few feet from the officials and sidelines (oops, touchline.)]


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## BornToRun (Oct 29, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I am usually one to say "lay off of the referees, it's a thankless job and they don't get pad enough to deal with being yelled at over a kids games".
> But after today-  screw that.  To all of you refereees that suck-   Kiss my soccer balls.


Okay timbuck, do tell, what happened?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You must be the worst kind of ref, never wrong and acting more important than you are, probably your wife runs the household so you need to be an authority figure when she isn't around. Beotch


It's been a while since we saw this type of pseudo psychologically clueless gobbledegook. But this is not to say it's not still hilarious. Or ridiculous sounding.

Thank god the poster doesn't know this and we likely will see more. To which I say, "More! More!"


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Aren't you the same idiot that was arguing about a bleacher not being at a field when a picture showed it was? Yes, you are a DH.


I might have had something to say to this had you known what you were talking about.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Actually, the reference was to bleachers, as in the difference between fans far away from the field at a high school football game that are hundreds of feet from the officials, versus youth soccer games where the parents/fans/uncles/dog walkers are feet from the officials.
> 
> [Yes the SB complex has some 3 tier metal "bleachers" a few feet from the officials and sidelines (oops, touchline.)]


I see you are trying to reason with the idiot. Good luck with that.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 29, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Go
> 
> Move to Europe if you don't like our system.


Besides laughing at you when you say these teenage things, how many people have actually followed through with your "advice"?


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## timbuck (Oct 29, 2016)

BornToRun said:


> Okay timbuck, do tell, what happened?


We lost. We've given up 4 goals out of 6 total this year on free kicks from 20ish yards out.  My opinion is they are bad calls and there was just shoulder contact.  Maybe if I saw it on video, I'd think different.
Today a girl tripped over the ball and the ref called a foul.   
Free kick on the side is the 18.  Kicked it to a girl that everyone thought was very much offside. I don't think think AR realized you can be offside on a free kick.  He missed at least 5 throw ins the wrong way (both directions) , but I don't ever argue those.
 This was the only time the ball was inside our 18 unless it was a pass a keeper. But there are another 58 minutes and 50 seconds in the game that we should have been able to make it up. 
We need to finish our chances better and not leave things to chance with judgement calls.


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## baldref (Oct 30, 2016)

timbuck said:


> We lost. We've given up 4 goals out of 6 total this year on free kicks from 20ish yards out.  My opinion is they are bad calls and there was just shoulder contact.  Maybe if I saw it on video, I'd think different.
> Today a girl tripped over the ball and the ref called a foul.
> Free kick on the side is the 18.  Kicked it to a girl that everyone thought was very much offside. I don't think think AR realized you can be offside on a free kick.  He missed at least 5 throw ins the wrong way (both directions) , but I don't ever argue those.
> This was the only time the ball was inside our 18 unless it was a pass a keeper. But there are another 58 minutes and 50 seconds in the game that we should have been able to make it up.
> We need to finish our chances better and not leave things to chance with judgement calls.


vented, had a beer, relaxed. well done sir. it's like i tell everyone when they get a riled up....... it's just a bunch of girls playing soccer. enjoy it, or get involved in it, or do whatever it is your personality has you do...... but in the end, it's about the players playing. 

That being said, when my daughter was playing, i had a hard time taking this advice all the time.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 30, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Besides laughing at you when you say these teenage things, how many people have actually followed through with your "advice"?


Probably about the same amount of people that listen to you.


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## softwaretest (Oct 30, 2016)

Seems like a good place to vent, but let me first say my problem isn't with bad calls and such.  Parents need to chill out on the referees.  Go referee an AYSO game and realize it's enormously difficult especially when you don't have any AR's

Ok with that being said, our U11's showed up at a game a few weeks back that somehow was being played on a full sized field with 8ft tall goals and one center referee.  Forgetting the issue I have with the field, playing on a full size field should require at least two referees.  It was impossible for this guy to have any idea when the girl was 10 yards off because he just finished chasing a play 70 yards only to see the defenders hammer a ball back the other direction.

Another game we showed up at this year the center referee, who should've been in a convalescent hospital rather than a soccer field, walks gingerly over to our sidelines informing us that he told the league he wasn't able to do games anymore at his age without AR's so we would play with clubs linesman who would only help on out of bounds.  Game starts and our first two goals are called back by highly questionable offside calls made by the other teams parent.

If we can't attract enough referee's perhaps the compensation needs to be raised.  In addition perhaps it's time to put a no-tolerance automatic ejection policy for parents that want to act like jerks on the sidelines. Also if it's true that the home teams hire the referee I'm not sure who thought that would be a good process.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 30, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Kicked it to a girl that everyone thought was very much offside. I don't think think AR realized you can be offside on a free kick. He missed at least 5 throw ins the wrong way (both directions) , but I don't ever argue those.


From experience as AYSO parent and referee: Teams get more than their unfair share of weak ARs (Regionals who can't handle the better play) at the U11-U12 Extra level.


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## baldref (Oct 30, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> Seems like a good place to vent, but let me first say my problem isn't with bad calls and such.  Parents need to chill out on the referees.  Go referee an AYSO game and realize it's enormously difficult especially when you don't have any AR's
> 
> Ok with that being said, our U11's showed up at a game a few weeks back that somehow was being played on a full sized field with 8ft tall goals and one center referee.  Forgetting the issue I have with the field, playing on a full size field should require at least two referees.  It was impossible for this guy to have any idea when the girl was 10 yards off because he just finished chasing a play 70 yards only to see the defenders hammer a ball back the other direction.
> 
> ...


First off a club lines person should only be able to call the ball out of the field of play. Not even direction is allowable. 
Secondly, the referees are hired by the gaming circuit not the home team, even if they are paid by the home team. 
Lastly, have your coach our team manager make a report that the referee could not do the job he / she was supposed to so he / she can be assigned to a better fit. (Or not at all)
That being said, I really love solo assignments of u-littles, and if the level is higher, it can be very challenging getting all the offsides correct. Some coaches think pushing a high line and trapping is a good idea with a solo ref. Might not be.


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## softwaretest (Oct 30, 2016)

baldref said:


> have your coach our team manager make a report that the referee could not do the job


He actually requested that we file a report so they might figure out to stop assigning him solo lol. Really nice guy put in an impossible spot. Thanks for refereeing we need as many as we can get.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 30, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> Seems like a good place to vent, but let me first say my problem isn't with bad calls and such.  Parents need to chill out on the referees.  Go referee an AYSO game and realize it's enormously difficult especially when you don't have any AR's
> 
> Ok with that being said, our U11's showed up at a game a few weeks back that somehow was being played on a full sized field with 8ft tall goals and one center referee.  Forgetting the issue I have with the field, playing on a full size field should require at least two referees.  It was impossible for this guy to have any idea when the girl was 10 yards off because he just finished chasing a play 70 yards only to see the defenders hammer a ball back the other direction.
> 
> ...


1. If it's possible to referee adult men with one referee why is it not possible to referee 10 year old girls with one? Personally I think it's more efficient refereeing U11 with one, rather than 3 referees.

2. The home team hiring referees thing is confined to only one area in CalSouth. That, plus other things make me it is one unique league amongst leagues.


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## baldref (Oct 30, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> 1. If it's possible to referee adult men with one referee why is it not possible to referee 10 year old girls with one? Personally I think it's more efficient refereeing U11 with one, rather than 3 referees.
> 
> 2. The home team hiring referees thing is confined to only one area in CalSouth. That, plus other things make me it is one unique league amongst leagues.


You know I'm a fan of yours, but did you add something here? 
Condescending and unhelpful 
And I guess this post isn't helpful either......


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## softwaretest (Oct 30, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> 1. If it's possible to referee adult men with one referee why is it not possible to referee 10 year old girls with one? Personally I think it's more efficient refereeing U11 with one, rather than 3 referees.


I guess it's "possible", but the guys refereeing youngers games aren't generally in the gym all week preparing for that big U11 game on Sunday. That being said we did play on basically a full size field this weekend and the referee did a pretty good job it's just on average that they struggle to keep up. Which could lead to injuries as calls are missed and aggressive play takes over.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 30, 2016)

baldref said:


> You know I'm a fan of yours, but did you add something here?
> Condescending and unhelpful
> And I guess this post isn't helpful either......


I guess . . .


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## Just a Parent (Oct 30, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> I guess it's "possible", but the guys refereeing youngers games aren't generally in the gym all week preparing for that big U11 game on Sunday. That being said we did play on basically a full size field this weekend and the referee did a pretty good job it's just on average that they struggle to keep up. Which could lead to injuries as calls are missed and aggressive play takes over.


Perhaps. But I don't see you need much gym to efficiently referee U11 girls, full field or not.


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## MWN (Nov 4, 2016)

Laced said:


> How did the Referee Assignor arrived at the 50% attrition number? Is one season the time frame you seem to imply? Does it only include those who choose not to come back? When a parent shouts "That's a terrible call!" do you feel disrespected as a referee?


The Assignor has been doing it for many years.  I've also received similar comments from the President and Assignor for a local youth Rec league (that pays its referees).  For a kid that loves soccer, you can't beat the pocket change ref'ing gets you v. working a minimum wage job, so the fact that so many drop out after 1 year tells us something is wrong and its not the money.

When a parent voices their displeasure with a controversial call, its part of the game.   When a parent berates or personally attacks an AR or Ref for calls and causes other parents or players to adopt similar attitudes, then we have a serious problem and somebody is going to be watching the game from the parking lot.  Because of my age and demeanor, there is nothing that anybody is going to say to me (46 years old) that will effect me. My 13 year old (3 years with a Grade 8), is another story, but to his credit he brushes off the idiot coaches with more maturity than he should have at his age.

I think the fundamental problem is that we as a society, not just soccer, have a problem understanding that you can disagree without being disrespectful.


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## Surfref (Nov 5, 2016)

Laced said:


> How did the Referee Assignor arrived at the 50% attrition number? Is one season the time frame you seem to imply? Does it only include those who choose not to come back? When a parent shouts "That's a terrible call!" do you feel disrespected as a referee?


Actually it is higher than 50 percent.  In 2015 only 25 percent of new 2014 referees recertified.  The number one reason for not recetifying was they were tired of being yelled at by coaches and parents.


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## wildcat66 (Nov 5, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Actually it is higher than 50 percent.  In 2015 only 25 percent of new 2014 referees recertified.  The number one reason for not recetifying was they were tired of being yelled at by coaches and parents.


  Not to justify the yelling, but were these new refs new to youth club soccer as well?  My kids been playing for 8 years and there has been yelling the whole time.  I would assume that most youth players that ref have been playing so they should have been exposed to it already.  Kind of like taking a job at a hospital and then quitting cause you didn't realize you had to work around sick people...


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## Just a Parent (Nov 5, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Not to justify the yelling, but were these new refs new to youth club soccer as well?  My kids been playing for 8 years and there has been yelling the whole time.  I would assume that most youth players that ref have been playing so they should have been exposed to it already.  Kind of like taking a job at a hospital and then quitting cause you didn't realize you had to work around sick people...


The difference is, working around sick people is what you signed up for when you take a hospital job. Yelling is not what you signed up for when you sign up to referee.


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## Surfref (Nov 5, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> I guess it's "possible", but the guys refereeing youngers games aren't generally in the gym all week preparing for that big U11 game on Sunday. That being said we did play on basically a full size field this weekend and the referee did a pretty good job it's just on average that they struggle to keep up. Which could lead to injuries as calls are missed and aggressive play takes over.


I refereed two U11 and a U19 games today (center on one U11 and the U19).  One U11 coach commented that I was the first State Referee he had ever had for this team's games. I am not in the gym everyday, but I do run everyday.  I know plenty of good physically fit referees that work U11 games.  We normally get assigned to 3-4 games on one field.  Since the fields are full size, the teams can be U11 to U19.  Maybe the assignor that your club works with is assigning the old referees.  Have the club contact the assignor and complain.

As for the single referee complaint.  If I can work a BU19 game as a single referee, than referees should have no problem as a single on U11 games.


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## Surfref (Nov 5, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Not to justify the yelling, but were these new refs new to youth club soccer as well?  My kids been playing for 8 years and there has been yelling the whole time.  I would assume that most youth players that ref have been playing so they should have been exposed to it already.  Kind of like taking a job at a hospital and then quitting cause you didn't realize you had to work around sick people...


My DD played club for 10 years.  She started to referee at 12 years old.  When she was around 16 we were talking about a coach that yelled at her (AR) and the adult CR ejected the coach.  She said as a player she does not hear all the yelling.  She just concentrates on the game and what her teammates are saying.  So, as a referee she got to hear what parents and coaches actually say.  She was lucky and worked with some good CR that protected her and ejected plenty of parents and a couple of coaches who yelled at her.


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## softwaretest (Nov 5, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Since the fields are full size, the teams can be U11 to U19.


I think that's part of the problem U11 is supposed to be on small field 9v9 but some clubs are just putting the games on whatever size field they want. In one case we show up and the goals are 8ft tall lol


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## softwaretest (Nov 5, 2016)

Surfref said:


> My DD played club for 10 years.  She started to referee at 12 years old.  When she was around 16 we were talking about a coach that yelled at her (AR) and the adult CR ejected the coach.  She said as a player she does not hear all the yelling.  She just concentrates on the game and what her teammates are saying.  So, as a referee she got to hear what parents and coaches actually say.  She was lucky and worked with some good CR that protected her and ejected plenty of parents and a couple of coaches who yelled at her.


Yelling at a youth referee should be auto ejection with no warning. Geese it's not the World Cup.


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## Laced (Nov 6, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Actually it is higher than 50 percent.  In 2015 only 25 percent of new 2014 referees recertified.  The number one reason for not recetifying was they were tired of being yelled at by coaches and parents.


I was questioning his reasoning. It's a classic case of argumentum ad verecundiam. If he wants to cite a stat to back up his argument, he should be able to vouch for its validity. The same applies to you.

The actual number shouldn't matter. Abuse is abuse. 100% retention rate doesn't justify abuse. No more than 1%.


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## wildcat66 (Nov 6, 2016)

I guess my main problems with the refs here is we have a different definition definition of the terms such as abuse and disrespect.  I get that it is tough for some people to handle what I would call rude or obnoxious spectators.  I would recommend that if you are one of those sensitive types you avoid jobs like referee, cop, military, etc .  Parents get passionate about their keep kids.  I would rather see a passionate fan willing to be a little abusive,etc that a bunch of disinterested opera goers who just sit there and stone faced watch the game.  Sticks and stones break bones, words don't.  I am raising my kids to be warriors/survivors so yelling is gonna go in one ear and out the door other for them.  Probably why when their coaches have gotten upset with team my daughters teammates are all upset and she is smiling about how silly he sounded chewing them out.  Toughen up people.


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## watfly (Nov 6, 2016)

I'm not condoning abusive parent/coach behavior (I don't know why its necessary to issue the caveat when I talk about refs) but I think its too easy to solely blame parents/coaches for ref attrition.  I can't speak for older teams but at the 9v9 level many of the refs are ill prepared for the game both in terms of temperament and knowledge of the game (particularly league rules).  This year during league the reffing has just been short of atrocious.  This example is indicative of what we have seen this year: A couple kids are in a 50/50 battle and the other coach yells "Call a foul" the ref thinks for a few seconds and looks at the other coach and says "You want a foul? Fine I'll call a foul on your team" and precedes to give us free kick from the refs position on the field.

I'm not giving refs a free pass but these ref associations do refs no favors by sending out refs that are not sufficiently trained (in both laws and game management).  This problem is only compounded by the lack of supervision of these refs.  Ultimately, "club" (aka expensive rec) soccer is a victim of its own success and its just numbers game and its not possible to find enough qualified refs, competent coaches and non-psycho parents.


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## baldref (Nov 6, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Not to justify the yelling, but were these new refs new to youth club soccer as well?  My kids been playing for 8 years and there has been yelling the whole time.  I would assume that most youth players that ref have been playing so they should have been exposed to it already.  Kind of like taking a job at a hospital and then quitting cause you didn't realize you had to work around sick people...


who


watfly said:


> I'm not condoning abusive parent/coach behavior (I don't know why its necessary to issue the caveat when I talk about refs) but I think its too easy to solely blame parents/coaches for ref attrition.  I can't speak for older teams but at the 9v9 level many of the refs are ill prepared for the game both in terms of temperament and knowledge of the game (particularly league rules).  This year during league the reffing has just been short of atrocious.  This example is indicative of what we have seen this year: A couple kids are in a 50/50 battle and the other coach yells "Call a foul" the ref thinks for a few seconds and looks at the other coach and says "You want a foul? Fine I'll call a foul on your team" and precedes to give us free kick from the refs position on the field.
> 
> I'm not giving refs a free pass but these ref associations do refs no favors by sending out refs that are not sufficiently trained (in both laws and game management).  This problem is only compounded by the lack of supervision of these refs.  Ultimately, "club" (aka expensive rec) soccer is a victim of its own success and its just numbers game and its not possible to find enough qualified refs, competent coaches and non-psycho parents.


its a shame you get such horrible treatment. If I were you I'd get my kids away from this atrociousness and have them play baseball or softball
Im ashamed to be a soccer referee based on your non bias opinion of us


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## Just a Parent (Nov 6, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I guess my main problems with the refs here is we have a different definition definition of the terms such as abuse and disrespect.  I get that it is tough for some people to handle what I would call rude or obnoxious spectators.  I would recommend that if you are one of those sensitive types you avoid jobs like referee, cop, military, etc .  Parents get passionate about their keep kids.  I would rather see a passionate fan willing to be a little abusive,etc that a bunch of disinterested opera goers who just sit there and stone faced watch the game.  Sticks and stones break bones, words don't.  I am raising my kids to be warriors/survivors so yelling is gonna go in one ear and out the door other for them.  Probably why when their coaches have gotten upset with team my daughters teammates are all upset and she is smiling about how silly he sounded chewing them out.  Toughen up people.


Disrespect? Who gives a hoot? Least of all not a referee. But referee abuse? That's a different breed of animal. I suggest you read up on it. You will be surprised what it means.


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## Just a Parent (Nov 6, 2016)

watfly said:


> I'm not condoning abusive parent/coach behavior (I don't know why its necessary to issue the caveat when I talk about refs) but I think its too easy to solely blame parents/coaches for ref attrition.  I can't speak for older teams but at the 9v9 level many of the refs are ill prepared for the game both in terms of temperament and knowledge of the game (particularly league rules).  This year during league the reffing has just been short of atrocious.  This example is indicative of what we have seen this year: A couple kids are in a 50/50 battle and the other coach yells "Call a foul" the ref thinks for a few seconds and looks at the other coach and says "You want a foul? Fine I'll call a foul on your team" and precedes to give us free kick from the refs position on the field.


If the referee actually did this, I say, kudos. He properly enforced the LOTG. By calling it atrocious you just demonstrated your own ignorance of the laws of the game and blame the referee for doing his job. The person whose job you should be calling atrocious is the coach, not the referee.


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## watfly (Nov 6, 2016)

This level of ref attrition doesn't benefit anyone but most importantly it doesn't benefit the kids.  There needs to be accountability across the board.  Name calling doesn't resolve anything.


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