# Entering and leaving the field



## timbuck (Jul 18, 2017)

I know the FIFA rule is to enter at the halfline and not to enter until the player your are replacing is off of the field. 
What's the "official" protocol for youth play with unlimited subs?
It seems about 90% of the time, kids run off and kids run on as soon as the ref signals for a sub.  But then you get that 10% ref that will only let you sub at the halfline and you must wait to run on until a player exits the field. 

Seems to be a big time waster in a game with unlimited subs.


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## espola (Jul 18, 2017)

timbuck said:


> I know the FIFA rule is to enter at the halfline and not to enter until the player your are replacing is off of the field.
> What's the "official" protocol for youth play with unlimited subs?
> It seems about 90% of the time, kids run off and kids run on as soon as the ref signals for a sub.  But then you get that 10% ref that will only let you sub at the halfline and you must wait to run on until a player exits the field.
> 
> Seems to be a big time waster in a game with unlimited subs.


The referee's duties include knowing how many players are on the field at all times.  Doesn't seem like that big a deal to do what you can to help him out.


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## twoclubpapa (Jul 18, 2017)

espola said:


> The referee's duties include knowing how many players are on the field at all times.  Doesn't seem like that big a deal to do what you can to help him out.


+1
Also, remember that some of the consequences for misconduct are different depending upon whether the individual committing the misconduct is a player or substitute.  Even with unlimited substitutes the referee needs to know who is a player and who is a substitute so that if misconduct occurs during the substitution process the proper disposition can be made.  If a substitute is sent off then there's no impact on the number of players on the field.  If a player is sent off then his/her team plays short.  Best practice (as well as the LOTG!) has players entering at the halfway line after the player they're substituting has left the field.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 18, 2017)

As you note its up to the discretion of the referee. Many will waive the players on as they see the player clearly leaving. Some will be more strict when there are multiple subs, to make it easier to keep track of them. 

Bad referees blow the whistle before the new player reaches their area of position, unless they are walking. Thank you to coaches that use the pinny transfer system. It helps keep track of the subs more easily.


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## Surfref (Jul 18, 2017)

A lot of factors play into how I regulate substitutions.
First is what do the tournament/gaming rules tell me.  Do they specify that the player must be all the way off before the other player can come on?  If so, than I have no choice how I run subs.  If the rules only say that the sub may only enter with the referees permission, than I have leeway over how I control the subs.

Second is the length of game.  If the games are full length, than I am strict about substitutions and go by the LOTG.  Players must be fully off the field before the substitute can enter at midfield with no deviation.  If the game has a short half such at 25 minutes with no add time for U14, than I am going to bring the sub on quickly.  I do not care where the player exits the field (I prefer they do not exit in front of the other teams bench), but they must enter close to the midfield line.

Third is the age of the players.  If the players are high school age, than I am strict about substitutions and go by the LOTG.  Those few extra seconds during substitutions allow me to take care of game management issues such as to talk with players especially a player who is on the edge of getting a card, or to check on a player that may have got a minor injury.  It also gives me a short break from the running since my 50 year old legs get tired after running around with 16-18 year olds after 2-3 90 minute games.

Fourth is the experience level of my AR's.  With newer AR's I will usually be stricter about subs so the AR has a chance to learn the proper signaling techniques and controlling the subs.  More experienced AR's know or should know how to control the subs.

Fifth, and a pet peeve of mine, is that the substitute MUST be up at the midfield line and have checked in with either the AR or 4th official.  If the coach is yelling for a sub and there is no player standing at midfield and no injured player on the field, than I will not allow for a sub.  This usually only has to happen once, maybe twice, before the coaches figure it out.  I always instruct my AR's to brief the coaches before the game on the substitution procedures and will not start the game until I know they have talked with the coaches.  That way the coaches cannot say they didn't know.  If I am going to be strict on the subs, than I will also tell the players during the pre-game player check-in.

*** This is something that I always do and wish more referees did.  I wait until the sub has come onto the field and gets into position before restarting play. I have seen far too many referees start play while a sub is still running 60 yards across the field to get into position.  Not waiting for the sub to get into position is unsporting and provides an unfair advantage to the other team.


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## TangoCity (Jul 18, 2017)

Have you ever denied a substitution because you thought a coach was using it as a way to waste time (run out the clock)?


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## Surfref (Jul 18, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Have you ever denied a substitution because you thought a coach was using it as a way to waste time (run out the clock)?


Oh, hell yes and especially if the other team is attempting a quick restart.  I love that line in tournament rules: "Teams may substitute only with the referee's permission."  I will use this a lot in tournaments with a running clock and no add time allowed.  If a coach starts subbing at every stoppage and subbing out the furthest player from the bench, than I will definitely put a stop to it.


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## watfly (Jul 18, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Have you ever denied a substitution because you thought a coach was using it as a way to waste time (run out the clock)?


I know some refs that have a blanket policy of not allowing subs in the last few minutes of a game usually in the 3 to 5 minute range (injuries not withstanding).


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## Surfref (Jul 18, 2017)

watfly said:


> I know some refs that have a blanket policy of not allowing subs in the last few minutes of a game usually in the 3 to 5 minute range (injuries not withstanding).


If the gaming rules will allow me to add time than I will allow the subs.  I know a couple refs that have the policy of no subs in the last two minutes.  Dumb policy since a coach may want to get that start forward back in the game or sub in an extra defender and change up the formation to go from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1.

IMHO, all high school age games should have limited substitution.  Players may only sub out once per half or once in the first half and twice in the second.


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## Art (Jul 19, 2017)

I would go with no re-entry for first half and 1 re-entry for second half. Also this would be best for highschool age players. 

Keeping track of whose able to return into a game and its half would be alot of accounting work for referees, but coaches need to stick to the spirit of the game and ensure their abiding by the governing rules.

In my opinion it would be easier to limit subs based on how many you can do. For highschool age players id say 4 subs allowed first half for each sides, doesnt matter who re-enters or not, 6 subs allowed second half, this way you rely on tactical strategy rather than swapping players and winning based on physicality. 

We've all seen the massive squads where they just rotate constantly and have the horse like players that just gallop towards goal and brush everyone aside. These are little factors that will enable our youth players to develop their mental and strategic side.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

timbuck said:


> I know the FIFA rule is to enter at the halfline and not to enter until the player your are replacing is off of the field.
> What's the "official" protocol for youth play with unlimited subs?
> It seems about 90% of the time, kids run off and kids run on as soon as the ref signals for a sub.  But then you get that 10% ref that will only let you sub at the halfline and you must wait to run on until a player exits the field.
> 
> Seems to be a big time waster in a game with unlimited subs.


If the player entering is ready and standing at halfway line prior to a stoppage and as soon as a substitution opportunity presents the player leaving exits at the closest boundary line, the process takes less than 5 seconds.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> *** This is something that I always do and wish more referees did.  I wait until the sub has come onto the field and gets into position before restarting play. I have seen far too many referees start play while a sub is still running 60 yards across the field to get into position.  Not waiting for the sub to get into position is unsporting and provides an unfair advantage to the other team.


This is well and good for youth and Sunday geezer games. But for adults, when you substitute, the team should be able to move a player to cover that spot as needed until the positioning is sorted out, meaning, there shouldn't be any gaps regardless how soon after the substitution the game is restarted. It appears we are yet to achieve this level in the United States. 

The other side of this is that coaches choose their moments of substitutions carefully so as not to create gaps. They choose moments where there is no opportunity for quick restarts, like their own goalkicks for example, or where the team can delay the restart until the substitute is in position. The team, and not the referee controls this. But here we must take it upon ourselves to delay the restart until they are in position.  I actually sympathize with adult players who sometimes get frustrated with me when I delay the restart to allow substitutes to get into position. I always apologize when they express their frustrations.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Have you ever denied a substitution because you thought a coach was using it as a way to waste time (run out the clock)?


Coaches, (and teams) have a right to use whatever strategies they see fit to win. I don't see a problem with that as long as the referee does not allow any team to win unfairly. 

My method is, from the first minute, to have the player ready and standing at halfway line before the stoppage. I go over this with the coaches at check-in, have the AR remind the coaches right before the start of the game and the first time they scream "sub, sub, sub". I also have players leave the field from the closest point and not run across the field.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

Art said:


> Keeping track of whose able to return into a game and its half would be alot of accounting work for referees, but coaches need to stick to the spirit of the game and ensure their abiding by the governing rules.


What's wrong with designing your own substitution chits based on the competition rules that players can hand to the AR before substituting? Why do we want coaches to do our work for us?


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

watfly said:


> I know some refs that have a blanket policy of not allowing subs in the last few minutes of a game usually in the 3 to 5 minute range (injuries not withstanding).


As referees, we MUST abide by competition rules. We cannot, and MUST NOT, make up rules. Our job is to implement competition rules provided. Period. That there are referees who would do this is very disappointing. 

PS. I have not personally seen nor would I imagine anyone would do this, but since it's been posted, there must have been some basis.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Oh, hell yes and especially if the other team is attempting a quick restart.  I love that line in tournament rules: "Teams may substitute only with the referee's permission."  I will use this a lot in tournaments with a running clock and no add time allowed.  If a coach starts subbing at every stoppage and subbing out the furthest player from the bench, than I will definitely put a stop to it.


This should be done from minute one. Furthest player from the bench should leave the field from the furthest boundary line from the bench.


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## The Driver (Jul 23, 2017)

watfly said:


> I know some refs that have a blanket policy of not allowing subs in the last few minutes of a game usually in the 3 to 5 minute range (injuries not withstanding).


That is against the LOTG


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

The Driver said:


> That is against the LOTG


True.

But if competition rules have this, then this is what we must go by. We referee each game according to competition rules.


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## espola (Jul 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> If the gaming rules will allow me to add time than I will allow the subs.  I know a couple refs that have the policy of no subs in the last two minutes.  Dumb policy since a coach may want to get that start forward back in the game or sub in an extra defender and change up the formation to go from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1.
> 
> IMHO, all high school age games should have limited substitution.  Players may only sub out once per half or once in the first half and twice in the second.


Or get his lineup set up for kicks from the mark.


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## espola (Jul 23, 2017)

Art said:


> I would go with no re-entry for first half and 1 re-entry for second half. Also this would be best for highschool age players.
> 
> Keeping track of whose able to return into a game and its half would be alot of accounting work for referees, but coaches need to stick to the spirit of the game and ensure their abiding by the governing rules.
> 
> ...


Best?


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## wildcat66 (Jul 23, 2017)

Some of the responses from the refs on here is why I have a problem with soccer.  The rules should be enforced consistently across the board and personal opinions influencing how they are enforced should be nonexistent.  Ages of the players, skill level of the players, time of game etc are not specified as reasons to tweek the rules to a particular ref's liking.  If there is unlimited subs and coaches use the subbing to kill time or change a dynamic in the game then so be it.  If you don't like it then petition the FIFA rule board or governing board of the league tnmt etc to have it changed.  Refs should simply enforce current rules and regulations, not try to influence the way the game is played.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 23, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Some of the responses from the refs on here is why I have a problem with soccer.  The rules should be enforced consistently across the board and personal opinions influencing how they are enforced should be nonexistent.  Ages of the players, skill level of the players, time of game etc are not specified as reasons to tweek the rules to a particular ref's liking.  If there is unlimited subs and coaches use the subbing to kill time or change a dynamic in the game then so be it.  If you don't like it then petition the FIFA rule board or governing board of the league tnmt etc to have it changed.  Refs should simply enforce current rules and regulations, not try to influence the way the game is played.


FIFA says refeees must do that. That is the nature and culture of the sport. 

I never did understand your kind of mentality until my kids started playing basketball. It would be a sad, sad day in my opinion, were soccer officiating to become like basketball.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 23, 2017)

I guess i just prefer structure and consistency.  Some ref are worried whether shirts are tucked in and sock are appropriate, some are more focused on what the parents say and whether the coaches are being respectful.  One ref thinks that because the team is only 11 he isn't going to call certain violations of the rules as strictly while another doesn't believe in that so he calls them.  I understand that the substitution rule is intended so each team has only the required number of players on the field.  If the rule says you must enter and exit at the mid line then thats what u do.   If coaches use subbing to delay a game as long as it is done within the established rules then it is legal.  I always though taking a knee in american football was kinda sketchy, but its legal.  How about intentionally walking a good hitter in baseball?  Kinda bogus but a strategic move none the less.  Too much of soccer is left to the individual interpretation of the ref who may or may not have a personal opinion on how it should be done....just my opinion lol


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## The Driver (Jul 23, 2017)

If you dont respect the LOTG it's just UNO. Taking a knee is called the Victory formation and it you don't execute the play before the play clock expires you are penalized.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 24, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> *If coaches use subbing to delay a game as long as it is done within the established rules then it is legal. * I always though taking a knee in american football was kinda sketchy, but its legal.  How about intentionally walking a good hitter in baseball?  Kinda bogus but a strategic move none the less.  Too much of soccer is left to the individual interpretation of the ref who may or may not have a personal opinion on how it should be done....just my opinion lol


The problem is that while it may be "legal" to ask for a sub, it is not "legal" to sub without the referees's permission. Referees of youth games are working with a modified set of the rules (LOTG.) In tournament, they often are told not to add any time so the games will stay on schedule.  Otherwise, they could add time which would neutralize  the delay tactic. They also are required  to mantain the flow of a game.

So if in a referee's reasonable discretion he believes a coach is subbing solely to delay, run out the clock, etc. it is legal to deny a sub at that time.


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## espola (Jul 24, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> The problem is that while it may be "legal" to ask for a sub, it is not "legal" to sub without the referees's permission. Referees of youth games are working with a modified set of the rules (LOTG.) In tournament, they often are told not to add any time so the games will stay on schedule.  Otherwise, they could add time which would neutralize  the delay tactic. They also are required  to mantain the flow of a game.
> 
> So if in a referee's reasonable discretion he believes a coach is subbing solely to delay, run out the clock, etc. it is legal to deny a sub at that time.


For extreme values of the term "legal".


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## Art (Jul 24, 2017)

The thing is the laws of the game can only be upheld to its closest form on an Fifa or professional level. 

Subs are limited in the professional game and advanced level play. In tournaments its unlimited and if a coach makes 22 subs it will take about 15-20 seconds each! Think about if both teams subbed 22 times...that would eat away the game.

Its in no way within the realm of sportsmanship and spirit of the game which many of you claim to know about..

As a referee we are instructed to carry out the laws of the game the best we can and to uphold "spirit of the game"

In the case of substitutions by a winning team to run down the clock, thats an unfair advantage and as a referee you have to ask yourself is that within the spirit of the game? Is that fair to the other team? No and No. 

If you want to challenge this refer back to law 5 of the FIFA laws of the game as you clearly know so much about.

In the professional game, if its 92nd min and Liverpool is winning against Chelsea you have to allow the sub thats being called for..

Very different from a team playing limited minutes and no added time. This is common sense and to challenge this is baffling. 

Also if your the parent and your kid gets 1 minute to play for the team and the coach is putting him in at the last 2 mins, youd say "theres nothing left in the game to play for!! Why is he putting him in???"


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## watfly (Jul 24, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> I guess i just prefer structure and consistency.  Some ref are worried whether shirts are tucked in and sock are appropriate, some are more focused on what the parents say and whether the coaches are being respectful.  One ref thinks that because the team is only 11 he isn't going to call certain violations of the rules as strictly while another doesn't believe in that so he calls them.  I understand that the substitution rule is intended so each team has only the required number of players on the field.  If the rule says you must enter and exit at the mid line then thats what u do.   If coaches use subbing to delay a game as long as it is done within the established rules then it is legal.  I always though taking a knee in american football was kinda sketchy, but its legal.  How about intentionally walking a good hitter in baseball?  Kinda bogus but a strategic move none the less.  Too much of soccer is left to the individual interpretation of the ref who may or may not have a personal opinion on how it should be done....just my opinion lol


I hear what you are saying and can appreciate your frustration.  However, in the area of substitutions I think most refs are fairly consistent.  The perceived departures from LOTG voiced here have more to do with the fact that the youth games have a running clock.  So since refs don't have the discretion to add time, they have the discretion to limit obvious time wasting substitutions in the "spirit in the game".

In terms of overall inconsistency in the application of the rules I think its partially a function of the sport.  The LOTG actually give refs wide discretion, particularly in the area of intent.  It's compounded by the fact you have a single ref that effectively has unfettered control of the game, unlike any sport that I can think of.   There aren't really any officiating checks and balances built into the individual game itself.    I'm not condoning inconsistency among refs, I think its certainly a very frustating issue.


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## Art (Jul 24, 2017)

watfly said:


> I hear what you are saying and can appreciate your frustration.  However, in the area of substitutions I think most refs are fairly consistent.  The perceived departures from LOTG voiced here have more to do with the fact that the youth games have a running clock.  So since refs don't have the discretion to add time, they have the discretion to limit obvious time wasting substitutions in the "spirit in the game".
> 
> In terms of overall inconsistency in the application of the rules I think its partially a function of the sport.  The LOTG actually give refs wide discretion, particularly in the area of intent.  It's compounded by the fact you have a single ref that effectively has unfettered control of the game, unlike any sport that I can think of.   There aren't really any officiating checks and balances built into the individual game itself.    I'm not condoning inconsistency among refs, I think its certainly a very frustating issue.


thank you!


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## Art (Jul 24, 2017)

I strongly feel the 3 man DSC is outdated and could be updated in a completely different way but Id be looked at as crazy on here if I mention what I keep close to my chest .


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## watfly (Jul 24, 2017)

Art said:


> I strongly feel the 3 man DSC is outdated and could be updated in a completely different way but Id be looked at as crazy on here if I mention what I keep close to my chest .


I agree but it would probably be considered sacrilegious and an affront to the sport.  Personally I think AR's should be given a much larger role in officiating the game which would also have to include reprogramming of many CR's.  I'd much rather see that than VAR.


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## Art (Jul 24, 2017)

watfly said:


> I agree but it would probably be considered sacrilegious and an affront to the sport.  Personally I think AR's should be given a much larger role in officiating the game which would also have to include reprogramming of many CR's.  I'd much rather see that than VAR.


We'd have to retitle AR's to just match officials, and VAR will take time but its positives, just dont know if referees are afraid to do the whole return to field and show a red card thing, i.e mexico vs New Zealand...that was brutal to watch as a ref.  Whatever changes that would be made would have to be possible on the youth level, lets keep that in consideration!


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## wildcat66 (Jul 24, 2017)

I understand that subbing to run down the clock isnt in the purest wholesome spirit of great sportsmanship, but neither is a lot of things that teams do in order to win a game.  If a team is short players would you call the other team unsportmanlike when they play with a full team?  As a ref would you allow the game to proceed?  Is that following the spirit of the game?  How about long clears that are clearly not needed to kill time or allowing the ball to go out of bounds?  if the losing teams kicks the ball and normally the player would stop it from going out but lets it go to kill time would you not allow that?  too many gray areas left up to ref discretion.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 24, 2017)

how about this one ?  in the beginning of the game the ball goes out of bounds and a parent quickly runs to it and gets it back to the player right away to throw it in.  Now toward the end, the ball goes out, the parent is on the side that is ahead, and he just lets it go and the player has to run(or walk)  all the way over to where the ball is and get it for the throw in....gonna penalize the coach for the parent not upholding the same spirit of the game as they were in first half?  how about keeper who makes save and immediately pulls ball into play, now to kill time walks up to line and decides to kick or toss it out?  do you call that if it is within the reasonable time to have the ball?  Is that in spirit of the game?  If it is legal by the rules then  it should be allowed.


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## espola (Jul 24, 2017)

watfly said:


> I agree but it would probably be considered sacrilegious and an affront to the sport.  Personally I think AR's should be given a much larger role in officiating the game which would also have to include reprogramming of many CR's.  I'd much rather see that than VAR.


Video replay could be reviewed by off-field judges, who would have the power to over-rule on specific plays at the next natural stoppage, or immediately if the referee had awarded a goal that the video shows clearly was not.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 24, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> how about this one ?  in the beginning of the game the ball goes out of bounds and a parent quickly runs to it and gets it back to the player right away to throw it in.  Now toward the end, the ball goes out, the parent is on the side that is ahead, and he just lets it go and the player has to run(or walk)  all the way over to where the ball is and get it for the throw in....gonna penalize the coach for the parent not upholding the same spirit of the game as they were in first half?  how about keeper who makes save and immediately pulls ball into play, now to kill time walks up to line and decides to kick or toss it out?  do you call that if it is within the reasonable time to have the ball?  Is that in spirit of the game?  If it is legal by the rules then  it should be allowed.


A bunch of silly scenarios, and in no way analogous. Not gray areas at all. No one is penalized for *not upholding the spirit of the game.* Not allowing multiple, back-to-back substitutions at every stoppage (in the first 5 minutes, or last 5 minutes, intended to delay or not) is not a penalty.

Can't follow your keeper analogy, but all laws would apply.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 24, 2017)

All I am saying is that many of the delaying tactics used by teams that are ahead are not in keeping with the "spirit of the game" , but are legal by the rules of the game.  I understand that the ref is tasked with enforcing both.  When refs use the "we are tasked with upholding the spirit, honor, culture of the sport " response to why something is allowed or not it leaves to much up to personal discretion.  An unfair advantage of delaying by substituting could also be looked at if not allowed as an unfair disadvantage Depending on what team you are on.  
.


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## Art (Jul 24, 2017)

If its within the laws of the game its acceptable, the in game tactics you mentioned are allowed due to the fact that its happening on the field! Whereas a coach's tactic is off the field in a sense and actually is an interference in a way..I hope you follow on that one.

As the way things go if refs dont allow subs in that final min or 2 it shouldnt be an issue or a dramatic scenario...he is trying to enforce sportsmanship and a little fairness. 

This forum topic shouldnt have blown up the way it did. Some teams also stoop to the level of going down injured...which would be more acceptable than 9 subs...but then again that would be interpreted a different way


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## coachrefparent (Jul 24, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> All I am saying is that many of the delaying tactics used by teams that are ahead are not in keeping with the "spirit of the game" , but are legal by the rules of the game. * I understand that the ref is tasked with enforcing both. * When refs use the "we are tasked with upholding the spirit, honor, culture of the sport " response to why something is allowed or not it leaves to much up to personal discretion.  An unfair advantage of delaying by substituting could also be looked at if not allowed as an unfair disadvantage Depending on what team you are on.
> .


This is where your "understanding" is mistaken. Upholding is not enforcing. There is no provision for enforcing (ie. issuing a penalty or otherwise sanctioning) for a player or coach (and certainly not a parent) for not keeping in the spirit of the game, so long as it is not unsporting behavior. 

You are confusing a referee using discretion to not allow a substitution in particular situation, with them acting to penalize a team for the situations you describe. Completely different. Sorry you can't understand this, but you certainly are not alone


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## Surfref (Jul 24, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> ........  how about keeper who makes save and immediately pulls ball into play, now to kill time walks up to line and decides to kick or toss it out?  do you call that if it is within the reasonable time to have the ball?  Is that in spirit of the game?  If it is legal by the rules then  it should be allowed.


The keeper is allowed to control the ball with his hands for 6 seconds once he fully gains possession.  6 seconds is actually a lot of time.  The keeper can hold the ball and dance around for 6 second if they want.

The keeper making a save and just keeping the ball at their feet really irritated me as a player, but it is completely legal.  I had to have a coach remove a parent because a GU18 keeper did this in a 1-0.  The parent yelled at the keeper, "That's a fucking duoche bag move.  Pick the ball up."  The coach subbed out the dad's daughter and made her run around the field and tell her dad to leave and not to come back.

I had a BU17 keeper make a stop while standing.  He caught the ball and had it in his hands and in my opinion possession for about 1/2 second.  He then dropped it and played it with his feet just dribbling it around in the penalty area to waste time.  When the other teams forward ran at the keeper, he picked up the ball. I whistled for a keeper double touch and indicated an indirect kick. Keepers teammates went crazy, but their coach just yelled at the keeper, "I told you some ref was going to call that."  After the game the coach approached me and told me I was the first ref to make that call.  He said he had been trying to break that bad keeper habit for about a year.


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## watfly (Jul 25, 2017)

In regards to the running clock,  it is not uncommon for refs to add time or stop the clock for injuries particularly late in the game.  In our last 2 finals this year this has occurred.  I was OK with it the first time because my son's team was losing but the second time they were trying to hold on to a one goal lead .


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## Surfref (Jul 25, 2017)

watfly said:


> In regards to the running clock,  it is not uncommon for refs to add time or stop the clock for injuries particularly late in the game.  In our last 2 finals this year this has occurred.  I was OK with it the first time because my son's team was losing but the second time they were trying to hold on to a one goal lead .


Referees do not stop the clock in club games, only college and HS stop the clock.  In club games the referee, if allowed by gaming rules, can and should add time to the end of each half.


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## watfly (Jul 25, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Referees do not stop the clock in club games, only college and HS stop the clock.  In club games the referee, if allowed by gaming rules, can and should add time to the end of each half.


There not supposed to but they do.  There is video from this Sunday of the CR stopping his watch and indicating to his AR's to do the same on an injury.  In the other game the Ref might not stop his watch but clearly indicates to our coach that he is adding time.   Regardless of whether it was added or stopped both games were runnning clock and went 1.5 minutes over.  Not a big deal but it happens.


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## Surfref (Jul 26, 2017)

watfly said:


> There not supposed to but they do.  There is video from this Sunday of the CR stopping his watch and indicating to his AR's to do the same on an injury.  In the other game the Ref might not stop his watch but clearly indicates to our coach that he is adding time.   Regardless of whether it was added or stopped both games were runnning clock and went 1.5 minutes over.  Not a big deal but it happens.


Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games.  Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games.  Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games.  I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.


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## watfly (Jul 26, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games.  Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games.  Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games.  I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.


Yeah, I've typically just seen it in finals.  I guess my point is that regardless of the fact that the tournament rules state that its a "running clock" for all games it is not uncommon for refs to add time to a final.  Its probably a good idea for the coach to check with the ref beforehand.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 26, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Usually during semi and finals referees can add time and should even if it was a running clock (no add time) during the bracket games.  Most tournaments allow for extra time for semi and final games.  Of course there are those poorly run tournaments that do not factor in add time, overtime and KFTM (PK's) for semi and final games.  I always liked working the ECNL games because they allotted for plenty of time between games so the referees could add time.


Yes, referees at Dave Shelton this year were complaining that they only had 5 minutes between games to walk to chairs, complete paperwork, drink water, rest, use restroom, walk back to field, and check teams in. And the ref coordinator was yelling at them for being a few minutes behind.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 26, 2017)

So if a ref can "up hold the spirit of the game" by not allowing subs when a coach is using it as a delay tactic and the rules are unlimited subs, why then can he not "up hold the spirit of the game" by adding stoppage time.  If the tournament director complained I would just refer him to law 5.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 26, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> So if a ref can "up hold the spirit of the game" by not allowing subs when a coach is using it as a delay tactic and the rules are unlimited subs, *why then can he not "up hold the spirit of the game" by adding stoppage time[sic: ?]*.  If the tournament director complained I would just refer him to law 5.


Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S.,  the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her. 

Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.


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## espola (Jul 26, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S.,  the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her.
> 
> Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.


Unless the tournament changes the rules, it is a legal, logical way to try to win the game.  Grow up and live with it.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 26, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Again, sorry you don't get it. The answer however, is because the local tournament rules alter the LOTG. P.S.,  the tournament director doesn't give a whit about what you might say to him or her.
> 
> Not sure why you keep pushing your agenda that teams should be able to cripple the flow of a game to delay, or if you are just trolling now.


     I do understand and I think it is a crappy way to win but, it is a legal way to win.  The speed limit is 55.  If I get pulled over for doing 60 then, well I was speeding.   Crappy? yes.  But the law.   I am by no means a die hard soccer fan.  I am my daughter's fan, so I watch soccer.  I just think soccer refs have too many cases of making judgement calls rather than following the rule as it is written.  Because of the increased used of referee interpretation vice following the rule as it is written there seems to be a lack of consistency in how games are officiated.  That is my main complaint.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 26, 2017)

espola said:


> Unless the tournament changes the rules, it is a legal, logical way to try to win the game.  Grow up and live with it.





wildcat66 said:


> I do understand and I think it is a crappy way to win but, it is a legal way to win.  The speed limit is 55.  If I get pulled over for doing 60 then, well I was speeding.   Crappy? yes.  But the law.   I am by no means a die hard soccer fan.  I am my daughter's fan, so I watch soccer.  I just think soccer refs have too many cases of making judgement calls rather than following the rule as it is written.  Because of the increased used of referee interpretation vice [vs?] following the rule as it is written there seems to be a lack of consistency in how games are officiated.  That is my main complaint.


Of course its legal and "logical" to "*try*." 

Wildcat, again, its hard to follow what you are saying. Your speeding analogy is backwards (you said delay tactic are crappy but legal. You then said getting caught with speeding is crappy but illegal). 

What you are again missing is that substitutions are at the referee's discretion. So him denying a requested sub *is legal*.  Its also legal to ask for a sub at any time, but a ref doesn't *have to* grant it *every time.* If you would accept this simple fact, you would understand your argument is faulty.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 26, 2017)

Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game)   I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55.  If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree.  But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.


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## Surfref (Jul 26, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game)   I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55.  If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree.  But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.


Okay, let's address the sub issue.  Almost all tournaments and gaming league rules state substitutes are allowed at the referees discretion.  Why "I" would not allow a substitution in a youth game:  The team not subbing wants to do a quick restart(throw-in, free kick...) and by allowing the sub would disadvantage one team.  Or, the coach is subbing, in my opinion, to waste time.  So, instead of spending a lot of time issuing one of his players a yellow card, usually a captain, for delaying the game I can just refuse a sub and most coaches get the hint. These are all game management tools that I can use whether subs are limited or unlimited or running clock or add-time allowed.

It isn't as cut and dry as you would like it.  Having a bunch of friends that are law enforcement, I know they can write you a ticket if you are driving at or under the speed limit if they think your speed was unsafe for the road conditions.  One of my CHP friends told me about a ticket he wrote to a driver that was driving 15 miles below the speed limit in a snow storm.  It went to court and the CHP officer won.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 27, 2017)

The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't.  Both teams are allowed to do it.   Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could.  In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much.  I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed.   As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 27, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Perhaps my speeding analogy is backwards..perhaps a better way to put it is if you get pulled over for going 55 in a 55 and ask the cop and he says, well i think that 55 is too fast for this stretch of road and since I am tasked with protecting you ( protecting the spirit of the game)   I feel that you shouldn't be driving that fast even though the city or state or whoever is the authority over that road made it 55.  If the rule says unlimited subbing unless you are using subbing as a way to stall and disrupt the flow of the game then I would agree.  But if it just says unlimited subbing, then i think the ref should follow the rule and allow it wether it is at the beginning of the game, end of the game, whatever the score.


Now you're on to something. Ironically a cop can give you a ticket in your scenario, because the law, aka vehicle code section 22350 (Basic Speed Law), gives him the discretion to do so. 

Just like a referee  has the discretion to not allow a sub in your scenario. 

I think you may be starting to get it!


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## coachrefparent (Jul 27, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't.  Both teams are allowed to do it.   Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could.  In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much.  I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed.   As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.


There is no loophole. The referee  has the discretion to deny a sub. 

You don't  have to like this rule, nor does it matter.


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## baldref (Jul 27, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> The only way subbing disadvantages if one team is allowed to do it and the other isn't.  Both teams are allowed to do it.   Why someone who is losing would want to eat time off the clock is not for the ref to decide but they could.  In a running clock tournament with unlimited subs it would and has been an effective tool to win. If the ref adds time to compensate then not so much.  I get it , traditionally, culturally, soccer is a flowing sport with not a lot of stoppages, but if the rules allow, call it a loophole if you want, the use of stalling tactics to eat time should be allowed.   As a ref you don't have to agree with the rule, you simply have to enforce it.


we are enforcing the rules. maybe not how you think they should be, but how they are supposed to be enforced. substitutions are allowed at the referee's discretion. we are not necessarily denying anything. we are just not allowing it when it is abusive and detracts from the flow of the game.
From a tournament rules page:
*Substitutions:*
Unlimited substitutions allowed in all ages group. However, teams may substitute only with the referee’s permission. Substitutes must wait on the sideline (off of the field of play) until the field player has left the field of play and/or the referee has indicated the substitute may enter the field of play. Substitutions are allowed only at the following times (including over-times):


Substitutions by either Team are allowed at any stoppage of play with the permission  of the referee.



again, the rules are specific. only with the referee's permission. split hairs if you like, but it's the way it is


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## wildcat66 (Jul 27, 2017)

Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game?  I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking.  The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack.  The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.


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## Surfref (Jul 27, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game?  I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking.  The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack.  The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.


Yes, I do deny subs in the middle of a half.  I am fairly certain I stated that in an earlier post. I also do not allow subs if the sub is not up at midfield and ready to go.


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## baldref (Jul 27, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Do you as refs deny subs in the middle of the half if it disrupts the flow of the game?  I have seen numerous times where one team definitely had the momentum and were in the process of attacking.  The ball goes out of bounds and they immediately try to get it back into play to continue their attack.  The defending coach then requests a sub and the little break has enough of an effect to disrupt their momentum and foil the attack allowing the defensive team to counter...this tactic also disrupts the flow of the game, isn't really keeping with the spirit of the game and is taking up the same amount of time as the sub at the end....never see these requests for sub denied.


Any time during the game, if there is a quick throw in or restart of any kind, and I hear sub sub sub being screamed by the team not in possession, there's a good chance I don't stop that for a sub. If I don't allow it at that point, then it's likely at the next stoppage, because I know the team is asking for a sub, I will allow it


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## baldref (Jul 27, 2017)

And the biggest point of all this is that I / we , do this equally and evenly no matter which team is subbing or in possession. We don't care who wins, we only care about fairness and the game.


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## Surfref (Jul 27, 2017)

baldref said:


> Any time during the game, if there is a quick throw in or restart of any kind, and I hear sub sub sub being screamed by the team not in possession, there's a good chance I don't stop that for a sub. If I don't allow it at that point, then it's likely at the next stoppage, because I know the team is asking for a sub, I will allow it


Sometimes I think that parents truly believe that referees actually care who wins and that we manipulate the game to influence the outcome.  Those are the delusional parents.


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## espola (Jul 27, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Sometimes I think that parents truly believe that referees actually care who wins and that we manipulate the game to influence the outcome.  Those are the delusional parents.


Not all referees are as noble as you are.


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## baldref (Jul 27, 2017)

espola said:


> Not all referees are as noble as you are.


Not all parents hate referees as much as you do


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## espola (Jul 27, 2017)

baldref said:


> Not all parents hate referees as much as you do


I don't hate referees in general, but I can usually tell the good ones from the bad ones.


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## wildcat66 (Jul 27, 2017)

I don't hate the refs either, I think they do a good job for the most part.  I am just not much of a fan of the sport in general.


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## baldref (Jul 28, 2017)

espola said:


> I don't hate referees in general, but I can usually tell the good ones from the bad ones.


and i contend you can't. you have a "little" knowledge, and you think you are an expert. and, you are biased. makes your "opinions" on refereeing, invalid.


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## espola (Jul 28, 2017)

baldref said:


> and i contend you can't. you have a "little" knowledge, and you think you are an expert. and, you are biased. makes your "opinions" on refereeing, invalid.


Speaking of bias, I see you are willing to make a public judgement on a topic despite having no knowledge of it.


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## The Driver (Jul 28, 2017)

Ebb and Flow


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## watfly (Jul 28, 2017)

Wildcat,  there is no mechanism in the LOTG to ensure consistent application of the rules, in fact it promotes ref opinion and discretion in the application of the rules under the umbrella of spirit of the game.  The Spirit takes precedence over whether the ref is right or wrong.  Spirit of the game is only very subjectively defined as "The main/essential principles/ethos of football" although references are made to it including fairness and safety.  If you asked 10 refs to define Spirit of the Game you would likely get 10 different answers (same with parents and coaches) but hopefully there would be some common themes.  Spirit of the Game is a double edged sword,  but I like the concept.

So Wildcat if you were a ref and you allowed multiple late minute subs because in your opinion that was fair then you would be 100% correct under the LOTG just like the refs that don't allow it under the perception of time wasting.  Ironically as a parent you are wrong but as I ref you would be right.


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