# Moonlighting with Club & AYSO in SoCal, My 9yo sons experience!



## RuffRef (Apr 10, 2019)

This is NOT a Pro / Con debate  (please excuse the errors in my grammar and syntax etc. Im not a journalist just a soccer dad)

Me: Im a AYSO coach 2yrs (son/daughter)  /AYSO  ref 2 yrs/ and participate in some AYSO administration I believe in the organization and support it.  This thread is to only point out my experience in my sons 09'  2018 youth soccer development process.


My son (2009) was playing AYSO Core in 2017/18, he had a great coach, and developed at a very acceptable pace. (but not the best player on his team)  he was not invited for extras but played on the All-star Team where all things possible  were/went bad concerning  development in youth soccer. 
 -info-insert-  
1.The Ayso  all star coach didnt show up for the 1st two practices,  as well as many other practices/games. He was laxed, and never had a game-plan for practice, unorganized, and visibly  all over the place. (parents were very concerned from the start)
2. He favored his two players from his core team who went undefeated but were a older, very lazy, privileged and never showed any signs of working hard. (doing step overs in you own box, vs. clearing the ball etc.)
3.The team lost every game, the coach was not dedicated and easily frustrated.
4. practices were unproductive , every kid wants to be striker, no one wants to be keeper. or play hard. players fought for throw ins,  played defense on eachother rather than the opponents. (Bad News Bears x50)
5. The Pinnacle of pitty was this coach pulling this all Star team from a tourney mid game because the kids were losing.....BAD , literally forfeiting the game while it was being played. And watching another team on the adjacent field play with his back to his own players during the game. 
Just the worst thing for child soccer development.
6. all the kids except 4,, have chosen not to play soccer anymore.......ever!!!

Now.. During this all star season
My sons personal dedication was,, he made every practice, came 30min early / stayed 30 late etc.  But, at the end of the ALLSTAR season he did not want to play soccer ever again,  as well as 10 other players on the team based on the coach.  (who self admittedly took responsibility for the faults.)
Ill mention that i ended up being the Assistant coach 2/3rds of the way in,, based on the actual coach and assistant never showing up,, and then quiting when the team began losing bye double digits.  I somehow screamed at them loud enough and got the team to play harder,,play defense,  and the Goal differential came down to 1. for a few games

then the assistant coach came back.. ha ha ha.... I quickly gave back the duties. I was on the verge of quiting, and taking my son to play another sport.

-now to my point-

After the All Star team season finale (may) , I immediately took my son to a (top bronze division ) club team in which he began working out and practicing,,  he was given a 30 day trial (mid may-june) ,, and made the team, but was at the bottom end of the roster. The coach was/is an ex-pro and the team/players were very well developed and had played with eachother for a year or two.  Thees kids were also VERY well conditioned 08 scrimmaged with 09's and friendly matches were against bigger and better competition.  My son struggled initially , but then started doing ok in friendlies but was down on the depth chart,  I knew his game playing time would be limited while playing for this team.  
So i put him on a Core AYSO team also, with the understanding that on any given  gameday he would get the playing time needed to develop, exercise leadership skills , and play games with no pressure. Also to enjoy the perks of AYSO skills Days and extra cirricular events they had to offer..  2 halfs on two separate teams = one full game. (my thinking)    Practices /Games were in the same vicinity so logistics were not an issue.  His primary goal was to work his way into the starting line-up for the club team then stop playing in AYSO.
Club practice 2xs weekly / AYSO was 1x weekly but we couldnt make it on time most times for AYSO. but we would still do something to help develop his game. (it paid off)
Fortunately the game schedules were advantageous between the two series, with ample time for rest in between  Club/AYSO games on game days.   Ayso even offered him  to change teams based on some schedule / roster issues they had, but we remained steadfast.
For Ayso, my son volunteered to sitout 1st quarter , play Goalkeeper for 1 quarter  to be fair about not coming to practice , and to just play for two quarters. (coach was cool with that)  in two games we had to leave the team  at half just to make it on time to the Club game 5-10 min away. (a-la Deoin Sanders). 

Obvious signs of development first showed early in AYSO games he became dominant, and became a team leader.  The confidence and assertion that he put forth was exciting to see.  Also the pressure from the club environment kept him focused.  In Coast League,  his team went 11-1 / 28-3 with friendlies and tourneys..(look at the amount of games)..AYSO 8-4 no friendly games.   .My son didnt miss a club practice and his growth curve increased 10 fold, and althou he didnt start,  his minutes were increasing and soon became more playing time than players that started the game.  His team won the championship in his division.   Then came Coast League Cup..   first couple of rounds went very well,  and then, without warning the coach  decides to start him at the front, in the quarter finals and he froze up (nerves),, he was pulled out the game after the first 1:14 seconds never to see the field again. His club team lost, and they were bounced from the league cup tournament. Id drove 90 mins, spent the night in a yucky motel just  to see my kid play 1 minute!!
I released my anger at him for 90 minutes all the way back home, and upon reaching the house made him change uniforms and go play with his AYSO team that day.  He played incredible , and what seemed like pressure-less  perfection. (lesson learned, never choke on your first start because you may never start again,  and your dads gonna go berserk)  And next time set your goals higher!!

Goal accomplished!!  now  2018 winter break and on to 2019 state cup.  The winter break was devastating and no games/ practices really hurt players.  Soccer was replaced bye Fortnite, and motivation became a struggle. But as the 2019 Cal South State Cup tournament started the training and focus became more intense. Without the AYSO games the additional effort was placed on the Run for the Cup.  There were many Rain Delays which pushed back the Cup several weeks. It gave the players some extra time to get back to optimal playing form and play a few friendly matches.  My son had solidified his position as a full-time -all game starter/player at defender and midfield. The comrade and parental support was immense, as he was the most improved player on the team working his way up to the upper half of the roster, and being more of a well rounded player than even the best players on the team. (incredible growth).  As the Cup Started, my sons growth improved with each touch, he played an almost flawless performance  in the firs round  As the next two rounds kicked off it was clear the kid was putting ALL of the time/dedication to use, accounting for many assist , shots on goal,  and great solid defense. I believe its the pressure of letting down your team that helped him focus.

At this stage the team makes it to the State Cup Finals for his age/division. They play well but they lost to a hybrid 
Academy / Hired guns for the Cup Team.  But the experience from going 0-22  and bad coaching in AYSO,, to being coast league champs , State Cup Finalist and being visibly ALOT better is my idea of growth.   My son is very happy with his progress and development, as am I. I was a great run that laid down a foundation of/for dedication for future progress.

Ill conclude by saying his progress in Club would not have been possible without the AYSO experience.   But regardless of anything, the possibilities  of growth are greater with dedication in general. To any parents who would want to increase the speed of the development cycle,,I encourage a multi-factor saturation for 6 months ( soccer/futsal,  parks recs aka "taco circuit aka mexican leagues"/ AYSO,  AYSO / club)  I personally experienced a childs growth / dedication elevate tremendously.  
twice the dedication , twice the play, twice the friendships, twice the running around to soccer games.  A true saturation from may till December for 1 season.
My advice, is the better your kid adheres to dedication, the better he/she will play, the better they play , the more fun they have,  the more they want to continue playing, and the more options they have going forward.  My honest opinion,  Club IS better than AySo based on competing against players who are more competitive. But, you can get the same experience on the  park rec leagues / and AYSO extras/AllStars  combining the two.
If you cant be on the top half of the roster on a club team,,this is a great alternative.  Probably a better choice 
 Some people look for other clubs,,when in actuality the kid just needs more game minutes.  (with / without the club)

Crucial Notes:
dedication can close the gap to a deficit in skill in 3 months (90 days) if the kid touches/play with the ball 60 of those 90 days.

Winter Breaks / spring breaks / summer breaks are a great time to increase your dedication and close the gaps in the competition. (go private for 1 -2week , do something extra)

Repetition of tasks, and training / practicing doing things at full speed make a big difference in games.

quality over quantity,,, but over a length of time quantity will develop a player more. (more reps)

AYSO is a great tool for "assisting" development. 

thanks for reading , i hope this helps anyone / everyone.  Again forgive my grammar.


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## Grace T. (Apr 10, 2019)

My family has been very involved with AYSO and United over the years as well.  A few thoughts:

1. One of the problems with All Stars (and quite a few Extras teams) is that they usually are teams of all strikers due to the way nominations (and/or testing) works.  For All Stars, the coaches are also not usually the worst but the best have already been farmed out to Extras and United.   And Core is like a box of chocolates....you never know what you are going to get....which was our prime motivation for getting my son out of the core (he didn't respond well to my coaching, and his first Core coach had the team line up in a "line of scrimmage" like in gridiron football during kickoffs).

2. Doubling up between club and AYSO might be good for the development of your player, but people need to be mindful of overuse injuries that might result, particularly if a club team has extensive practice session (or in the case of my kid, additional GK training).  You of course know your kid better and how his body reacts...no 2 players are alike.

3. The development may be great for your player, but the issue is if AYSO comes second, it might not be fair to the coach or to the other players.  It's great they were willing to work with your schedule.  Not many would, and if they aren't, then it would be a little selfish on your part, particular if the program is oversubscribed and there are kids who don't get to play at all on the wait list (like there are in our nearby regions every year).

4. Yelling at a kid for a bad game is in most circumstances not a great idea.  Soccer just isn't worth it.  That said, some kids need it and want it.  YMMV.


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## mirage (Apr 10, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> This is NOT a Pro / Con debate ...........thanks for reading , i hope this helps anyone / everyone.  Again forgive my grammar.


well, after all that, I hope you've vented and feel bit better.  I've been at youth sports since my older son was 5 yrs old and is now 20.  My younger son is in 11th grade and have one more year of club soccer to go....

Just about ever parents in youth sports have similar story to tell and the best (or worst, I suppose) part is there will be more to come.

So think marathon, not sprint and just set measurable goals for your kid and work towards it - ignore the noise and the hype.  

The parental intensity peaks, generally speaking, around U12~U13, the drops off pretty quickly.  In other words, all this worries about development and whathaveyou seem not to matter all that much for most folks after awhile. Your kid will take the wheel and tell you if he wants more or want to improve.  Mine did as he got older.

Cheers!


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## Chalklines (Apr 12, 2019)

The tallent level is so poor when it comes to most ayso regions that im honestly supprised it didn't set your son back playing down to the lower competition level. 

It's about quality, not quantity......I can smell the burnout through your post


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## socalkdg (Apr 12, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> My family has been very involved with AYSO and United over the years as well.  A few thoughts:
> 2. Doubling up between club and AYSO might be good for the development of your player, but people need to be mindful of overuse injuries that might result, particularly if a club team has extensive practice session (or in the case of my kid, additional GK training).  You of course know your kid better and how his body reacts...no 2 players are alike.


  We did this because my daughter was a keeper and she still wanted to play the field.   She played AYSO, Select, and Extra at ages 10 and 11.   I coached the AYSO teams, the Select and Extra teams knew club came first.  The extra touches in the field helped develop her foot skills as a keeper and to this day she is still one of the best passers on the team.


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## TangoCity (Apr 12, 2019)

tldr past the point you said, "I released my anger at him for 90 minutes all the way back home".

As parents we should be trying our hardest not to be doing this.


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## JCM (Apr 12, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> tldr past the point you said, "I released my anger at him for 90 minutes all the way back home".
> 
> As parents we should be trying our hardest not to be doing this.


Agreed. This guy is going to ruin his kid.  The child's self worth to his Dad is based on how well he played in a u10 bronze level soccer game.  Imagine the pressure he's going to feel if he somehow is still playing in high school.  The kids I coach with parents like this aren't brave on the field, they are afraid to screw up.

If you are a parent and "go berserk" on your child for 90 minutes because they got pulled after one minute you really need to check yourself. If you are upset with anyone in that situation it should be the coach who didn't play a u10 player beyond one minute.  That's not development or coaching.  It's wanna be Bobby Knight bullshit.

Whatever you feel inside, if you want your kid to love the game and love you, be positive after the game.  "I loved watching you play" is appropriate for every game.


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## jrcaesar (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> Id drove 90 mins, spent the night in a yucky motel just to see my kid play 1 minute!! I released my anger at him for 90 minutes all the way back home, and upon reaching the house made him change uniforms and go play with his AYSO team that day.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 12, 2019)

You need to take a step back mate and just support your kid and let him enjoy the game. Chances are he isn’t going to be Messi.

Some parents are supportive to their kids.

Some parents have class.

Some parents are knowledgeable about the game.

Some parents are all three of the above but unfortunately many parents are none of them. 

Every week now I see or hear something more stupid or bizarre than the previous week from parents on the sidelines. HS is even worse than club. Some of the stuff is cringeworthy, some of it is vitriolic and some of it is plain brainless. 

We can all help. If you’ve got a crazy parent next to you, just have a quiet word with them. If that doesn’t work, jab them in the stomach and ask them to grow up for the sake of their kid. They sometimes need a shock.


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## Messi>CR7 (Apr 12, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> tldr past the point you said, "I released my anger at him for 90 minutes all the way back home".
> 
> As parents we should be trying our hardest not to be doing this.


DD's coach sent us this article when she was playing U8.  It really made all the difference.
https://changingthegameproject.com/the-ride-home-after-the-game/


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2019)

JCM said:


> If you are upset with anyone in that situation it should be the coach who didn't play a u10 player beyond one minute.  That's not development or coaching.  It's wanna be Bobby Knight bullshit.


Totally agree with this, but in fairness to the OP lot's of teams aiming for promotion (and it sounds like this team is aiming for silver) behave this way.  2 years into this now, my son and his best friends have been victims of it, and I've heard countless stories, particularly at this age when they are trying to move a team up in the standings, about how ruthless coaches can be (we just had, for example, that other rant on the boards from the United parent).  At this age many developmentally oriented teams that will actually play all the players with some amount of minutes (if not equal time) just can't compete against teams that are more ruthless....they lose and then they lose their best players while the more ruthless teams advance and attract better players...rinse repeat.

I understand why the bracket system is in place (or you'd have gold teams beating bronze teams 40-0 which isn't good for the development of either) but the bracket system, particularly at these lower ages, just creates horrible incentives for coaches to pull this kind of stuff.  If you can't find a unicorn that's great for development and doesn't pull this stuff (particularly if your kid isn't in the top 5% with his pick of teams), the choices sometimes boil down to win at all costs or develop but lose and don't advance, at least at this age.


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## vegasguy (Apr 12, 2019)

Look many of us have been there so none of us should cast stones and declare a parent "berserk" or that "crazy parent" or "one of them".  Most of us learn how to act on a sideline and how to support our kids and the learning pathway is different for everyone.  When you do see a parent going over the top tell them a story about this coach (not for his son) who is parent at his son's games.  

It was at Cerritos when my son was a u10 player.  We had to drive a ways, stay 3 nights in a hotel (over priced), gas, eat and expense expense expense.  Lost the first game to a better team, won the second and needed to be Arsenal to move onto quarter finals.  Our team goes up 2-0 pretty quick.  By half we aren't even really paying much attention as proud parents winning we can all relax and joke and chat.  My wife comes over and it looks like she is going to kill someone and says "Are you watching this?"   I look out at the field and there is the keeper leaning against the pole not even engaged in the game.  It is a big tournament and the keeper is doing that.   He gets scored on and fortunately we win 2 to 1.  The keeper is my child.  We are advancing to the quarters everyone is happy but my wife and I get in the car and lose it.  How can you not pay attention?  Do you know how much this is costing us?  Are you trying to let your team down?  
I know you don't have to pelt me.  I was that Dad and I am a coach and tell my parents that they are their to support only; good or bad.
My child cried.  We went to the hotel showered, ate and went off to the quarters.  We were playing a team from NorCal.   I think they lost in the finals of that tournament and they were in finals of surf and blah blah blah.   Our team played ok but even with parent goggles the keeper was killing it.  Couple big saves, was engaged and I am thinking my "pep" talk must have worked.   0 to 0 with little time left.  Ball gets in the box and my son goes and smothers it.  In my opinion, the other player ran in late stepped on the ball while in my son's hands and fell over.  Keeper gets up punts it away and the NorCal coach loses it.. screaming for a red card in the box and crying foul.  5 or 6 seconds pass since the ball has been punted and the AR raises his flag.  Conversation... penalty and a yellow card on the keeper.   Penalty converted but touched into to the pole almost saved.  We lose 1 to 0.  After the game my sons is crying again.  Now I am the consoling parent.   It is ok.  You were awesome.  I am so proud of you..  He responds "Sorry I lost the game for you".  
10year olds see things differently.  
I say three things before every game I get to see since that day  I love you.  I play hard.  Have Fun. And after the games, it is what was your best save.   He is U16 now.  Blessed that he still playing.  Fortunate his love of the sport has driven him to NIKE ID2, Offers from DA to join, US Training Center opportunity and competing for a great coach on a higher level pretty good team (debate if you must but I have parent goggles), in a great league that is a joy to watch.  If there is another 4yrs past high school, I will still be there saying the same three things as it is his game not mine.  I am just a fan.


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## JCM (Apr 12, 2019)

vegasguy said:


> Look many of us have been there so none of us should cast stones and declare a parent "berserk" or that "crazy parent" or "one of them".


In fairness, he called himself berserk. And I like you and him have had less than proud moments.  Glad it's worked out for your child.  Hopefully it does for his as well.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2019)

vegasguy said:


> I look out at the field and there is the keeper leaning against the pole not even engaged in the game.  It is a big tournament and the keeper is doing that.   He gets scored on and fortunately we win 2 to 1.  The keeper is my child.  We are advancing to the quarters everyone is happy but my wife and I get in the car and lose it.  How can you not pay attention?  Do you know how much this is costing us?  Are you trying to let your team down?
> .


Reffing I see lots of kids that do that at age 9, particularly if their team has been dominant and they aren't engaged in the game.  It's neurotypical since attention and focus are things which build with age.  If your kid did that now...of course bench him and have the coach scream at him.  But a 9 year old it's going to happen and it's totally unfair of us and of coaches to not expect it (I say this as the parent of a slightly ADHD keeper who actually never did this but pulled a bunch of other doozies at that age).  In conjunction with the other thread from the parent with the keeper that is just mentally and physically done, one of the big problems with club soccer is we have unreasonable expectations of what the keepers should be doing at these ages, and comparing them to other keepers (one keeper may know how to tip over bar..."why can't you do that?"....well my keeper might be really good with the smother or distribution while the other keeper can't).  At that age, the expectation really should be the kid can stop balls that come directly at him and to collect the loose balls without having them go through the legs, with a year focused on just catching the thing.


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## RuffRef (Apr 12, 2019)

Wow,,  I honestly expected more negative comments about the AllStar AYSO coach, than me as a parent.  Me going "berserk" is only for entertainment i never yell at my kids,,,, hell the silent treament is more effective ha ha ha.. That ride home was more pep talk than anger.   I cheerish my son, and his efforts im really more helpful than hard. I have fallen back  , and  have always taken more of a supportive approach.   I also played 3 different sports (football, baseball , basketball) still active "unlike some".  So i can "relate"..  I dont live vicariously through my kids.   Sometimes kids need to "learn and be taught" WORK ETHIC!!!  This is not as natural as talent, but can be more effective!
Im not a Push Parent, but i guide my kids toward their dreams.  " If you want to start on this team,, here's what you gotta do for 3 months".  
My kids happier than ever,, But i too was worried about burn out,, thats why he's now doing robotics,, some juijitsu, and still some indoor.   As a parent,, id rather my kid burnout on soccer/ sports ,, and homework,,, rather than overendulge on fortenite!!
As a "older parent"  Im active,,  I show alot of enthusiasum toward my kids and engage in their activities,,, i wear cleats,,and play  soccer with them, i dont just watch.   i play and its fun,,  we have juggle contest, play against each other, have foot races, and go eat ice cream afterwards.  Some parents tell me " i wish i could play with my kids, but my back wont let me". They sit in there outdoor chair and play on their cellphones.   Me, I still clap and cheer for my kids in practice as well as the game.   Im still able to lead bye example,, and my kids are dressed and ready to go on gameday without me having to find and gather their uniforms & equipment. I drive all over town  and pay every price to support my kids, and sometimes their friends  in sports, and other activities, to show them my commitment is solid,,,so yours better be as well..! This they understand. Our motto...............ALWAYS TRY YOUR BEST  AND NEVER QUIT!!!  And if your going to do something,,,,, why not give it 100%? 
I believe in quality vs. quantity,, but if you cant get quality,, then quantity is an alternative.
My son is down to 4 hours of soccer per week now  (only club & 20min indoor), 6 hours of fortenite. (yeah)   He's aiming for Surf camp , beach fun and gymnastics for the summer..



A response to one of the post: .You need to sit back and let the kid learn etc...   , 

 A child cannot learn to enjoy the game,,,while trying to learn from a coach who does not enjoy coaching the game!!!! 

I would never encourage duel/over play,,.    But i would promote short term saturation for quicker development, working harder. instead of going to 4 different club teams to find a space where your kids will get more minutes. Some kids spend more minutes in numerous  tryouts than they play on the team in a season. (facts)


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## Chalklines (Apr 12, 2019)

Here's a perspective...

You understand criminals don't even get pissed on for 90 mins in the back of a squad car for doing wrong.

For you and your kids sake I hope 90 mins was an exaggeration.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> The winter break was devastating and no games/ practices really hurt players.  Soccer was replaced bye Fortnite, and motivation became a struggle. I believe its the pressure of letting down your team that helped him focus.
> 
> 
> Crucial Notes:
> ...


Besides what others have said about burning out your child...you are going to burnout. Keeping your emotion and thought process at that level for any extended length of time is going to burn you out and possible issues with your child. AYSO is a good start for most people - can learn to coach some basics. The program was never geared to make great coaches...frankly wasnt made to make good players either. Many on here know the history of the AYSO coaching curriculum and what is behind it. Funny thing is many clubs actually use the curriculum themselves. My friend lives next to the developer of the curriculum.  The material is very basic, but fine for a Rec environment (can modify it for higher levels if you have the experience to do so) - if you take it for what it is. Therein lies the problem.

The vast majority of people who post on the board have kids who have been in soccer for years - think a good portion for 10+ years. Some people on here coach and have coached at a high level and many have played at a high level. I think we all have seen your story before- repeatedly. The most problematic parents ( those insisting for higher flight level, more playing time, talking smack on other kids, talking smack on coaches, etc)  I have seen are bred from this environment and usually involves Coach Dad.  They have been led to believe the coaching methods at AYSO translate to higher levels and it doesn't. So Coach Dad has conditioned his/her mind to believe they "know" about soccer training (from watching some videos and following a flawed training system) and form opinions of their child's soccer level that isn't reality. Human nature to think the best of your child, but doesn't help them. So as someone mentioned, good to take a step back at times. 

Going over what I quoted:

Closing the gap in skill in 90 days? I guess that is relative to the skill level you are trying to catch. Trying to catch gold/silver/flight1/flight2 level coming from AYSO in that time is never going to happen unless the child already has had personalized training or doing skill drills CORRECTLY before the attempted race to catch up in level. Getting to Bronze level is a good target but can be large gaps between various Bronze levels - as you witnessed at State Cup. Don't fall into the "hired gun" trap of thinking. The other team was better, regardless of who was playing. They play with the same rules/guidelines as your team.  You will have a long road as a parent once you start building in excuses, just need to get better - without burning out the kid(s).

Dedication is good, but has to be the child wanting to do it. Playing Fortnite is not a bad thing. Training all the time is actually a bad thing. That is how you burnout a child. You said more isn't better, which is true, but you contradict yourself when you say breaks are the time you have to dedicate your child to train more.  Look up Periodization Training. Off-Season has a real solid function, training "harder" or "more" is not always a good thing. Our children will also never catch certain kids. Doesn't matter how much they train and how much the other kid DOES NOT train. Just have to come to terms with that fact at some point and focus on 

Doing things at full speed is not always possible, especially if the child's technical ability doesn't allow for it and/or the kid is just limited athletically to do things at a certain pace. This is akin to a coach trying teach kids to play possession soccer when they cant even hit their buddy 5ft away from them - which is part of the reason UK based salesman sold AYSO "direct" playing style. Direct gets translated to Boot and Chase - which doesn't need certain skill sets to be taught. 

I know your post was a vent and to share your experience to this point. Hopefully you don't take any reaction harshly and consider some of the advice given. Main thing is to keep your kid playing regardless of level.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

vegasguy said:


> Look many of us have been there so none of us should cast stones and declare a parent "berserk" or that "crazy parent" or "one of them".  Most of us learn how to act on a sideline and how to support our kids and the learning pathway is different for everyone.  When you do see a parent going over the top tell them a story about this coach (not for his son) who is parent at his son's games.
> 
> It was at Cerritos when my son was a u10 player.  We had to drive a ways, stay 3 nights in a hotel (over priced), gas, eat and expense expense expense.  Lost the first game to a better team, won the second and needed to be Arsenal to move onto quarter finals.  Our team goes up 2-0 pretty quick.  By half we aren't even really paying much attention as proud parents winning we can all relax and joke and chat.  My wife comes over and it looks like she is going to kill someone and says "Are you watching this?"   I look out at the field and there is the keeper leaning against the pole not even engaged in the game.  It is a big tournament and the keeper is doing that.   He gets scored on and fortunately we win 2 to 1.  The keeper is my child.  We are advancing to the quarters everyone is happy but my wife and I get in the car and lose it.  How can you not pay attention?  Do you know how much this is costing us?  Are you trying to let your team down?
> I know you don't have to pelt me.  I was that Dad and I am a coach and tell my parents that they are their to support only; good or bad.
> ...


Agree, we all learn and MOST of us get out of crazy parent mode as time passes. For some it only ramps up. Hopefully the OP can read all the posts and take an honest look at his child's path. It is his path. Some never realize that fact until the kids says "IM DONE".


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> I would never encourage duel/over play,,.    But i would promote short term saturation for quicker development, working harder. instead of going to 4 different club teams to find a space where your kids will get more minutes. Some kids spend more minutes in numerous  tryouts than they play on the team in a season. (facts)


Yeah, but the issue is that unless you are coaching the AYSO team (like one other parent on these boards did) or unless the coach is one of your best friends and is totally cool with it and will schedule around your practices (and is high enough in the org to get the field time), you are being very unfair to the coach and the other players.  The coach needs your kid there to get the entire team to work as a unit.  One of my big problems when I was coaching AYSO was getting the kids to come out to practice (and if your kid doesn't deem to come down from the lofty club heights, the other kids are going to look at it and say why should I go).  The other players need teammates (particularly one that's good and knows what he's doing) to get better themselves....strikers need kids that can pass to them, keepers need kids that can shoot on them.  And since your kid plays club and All Stars he was probably drawn as a 1 or 2 on the AYSO balance team draws (which means by removing him from play from another org you are essentially unbalancing the teams).

Like I said, assuming you don't burn him out or give him an overuse injury, great that your kid is developing, but your doing that at the expense of everyone else, which isn't a great thing to be advocating....me and mine first and everyone else comes last.

As to why we aren't jumping on the All Stars Coach, well it's because that's par for the course and not necessarily unexpected.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> A response to one of the post: .You need to sit back and let the kid learn etc...   ,
> 
> A child cannot learn to enjoy the game,,,while trying to learn from a coach who does not enjoy coaching the game!!!!
> 
> I would never encourage duel/over play,,.    But i would promote short term saturation for quicker development, working harder. instead of going to 4 different club teams to find a space where your kids will get more minutes. Some kids spend more minutes in numerous  tryouts than they play on the team in a season. (facts)


First, good your kid does multiple activities. Getting into one sport vs many has been discussed on here. So wont get into that. 

 Rule of thumb is to follow the coach you are comfortable with. A kid can 100% learn from a coach who doesnt enjoy the game. If he is good at teaching, his like for the sport will not impact a kid focused on training. You would prefer they enjoy what they are doing but kids can learn something from just about anyone - even if it is what not to do.  If we took this thought process during our HS/University education process, many of us would be diploma/degreeless. I would never follow a coach who doesnt like to coach, but some have no issue. Depends on the goal. 

Working Harder doesnt always translate to getting better. Everyone should work hard, but usually a limit to what hard work can do - depending on if we agree what hard work actually means. I also see a lot of kids working hard, but with no purpose or with a flawed plan. Can you define short-term saturation? Are you saying you would push a kid to train a kid to an almost burnout point then give them a break? Or just some high amount of training hours weekly over a certain time frame and then give them breaks? Again, should look up Periodization Training, specifically ones that refer to soccer or sports where you run all the time. Kids are durable at very young ages but as kids develop muscle, they can breakdown more frequently due to over-training. I highly recommend googling Shawn Arent at Rutgers. Can find a ton of podcasts where he has been a guest, or read his articles/books. He will modify any reasonable person's view on consequences of not understanding what it really means.


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## jpeter (Apr 12, 2019)

This is u9?  Best of luck to your kid & you on your journey first off.

Moonlighting? Many young kids play on mutiple teams, futsal, school, rec so don't take it so serious.   Kids play sports to have fun, so make sure it's doesn't become about the results at these young ages.

Giving player advice when you don't play or know much about the sport  a slippery slope,  my first kid knew more about soccer than I did by the time he was 10 so I never even talked to him about anything releated to playing the game unless he asked for a opinion or if I saw something.

I'm glad I did'nt get involved much or cared about the results at all during their early playing days; they found their own way, style, friends, teamates, etc and development a long lasting love of the game that way.  Maybe we where lucky to have so many good coaches, mentors, mates along the way but earning even thing they achieved with much parent involvement besides transportation is something that will serve them well later in life.  Helicoptering is a short-lived endeavor so take a step back, chillax, and keep things lite & fun for the kids so they will continue to love the game


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

jpeter said:


> This is u9?  Best of luck to your kid & you on your journey first off.
> 
> Moonlighting? Many young kids play on mutiple teams, futsal, school, rec so don't take it so serious.   Kids play sports to have fun, so make sure it's doesn't become about the results at these young ages.
> 
> ...


This. Parents who have coached there kids are the ones usually yelling counterproductive instructions to them on the sidelines. Same people who run to their kids at halftime to share what they are seeing (which somehow was missed by the professional coach) and tell their kid some nonsense advice about how they can score more or how they need to be the game-changer. Coaches are always happy when they see a parent on their side of the field talking to a player.

I agree about "moonlighting". Ton of club kids even play with Rec friends in Spring, playing Fustal or Sunday Leagues. Kids just play. This usually comes from perspective of parents who think very highly of their kid's skill


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## RuffRef (Apr 12, 2019)

As i said,,, And ill defend my thread (seems like i have too)  this Duel play is a short term "option" for someone called a "tweener"  (Skill level, Age,, size) An option to help speed up the growth curve.
Some kids never want to excel,, they are more comfortable mid-pack (no expectations), they are more afraid of the expectations of being the BEST and the ostracizing of being the worst. (Some embrace it, some dont) Some can handle it,,, Some cant.   Some kids NEVER get to play for a championship, let alone win one.   Its an experience that helps and cultivates competitive play adds confirmation in some of the "hard work paying off" aspect. 
Theres a growth in passion as well when kids are successful, make friendships/teammates.     Most of the kids "not playing again" are likely on a losing team. Vs.   continued play on a winning team. (fact)
My son was discouraged bye a badd coach,,, one of which 70% of the team never want to play the sport again.  (The coaches own son included) Talk about fair,,, thats ridiculous. And should be upsetting to any parent. (spirit damaging)
My son was encouraged bye a coach who was/is an Ex-pro (not many ex pro's teach kids soccer around here) to play duel to make a successful jump from AYSO level to Club.  (which they succeeded going from Bronze to Silver -notice the upward progress- its called momentum!)
Let me see,,ummmmm  Badd coaching vs. Ex-Pro's advice,,,,  Duhh! no brainer here..!
In sports theres  Growth, Peaks, plateaus , and troughs.  For most sports & players this is the mental aspect. (Getting over the proverbial HUMP) Nothing is sustainable,,and nothing is promised as well.  I watched as my kid absorbed minutes from the club players who, missed practice,and thought their moms/dads money would keep them on the field.  I watched as my kid went from being nervous,, to being confident and and encouraging team leader. (over the hump)
((isnt that what we want from sports?))

As far as AYSO and coaching....... in most/all cases the kids have more experience playing,  than the coaches have coaching.. so who's teaching who?

Now ,,, My kids say they are Burned out on school,,,,, Do I let them quit?  Do I not push them academically?  do i tell them to take off some time from school, because your brain might get injured???  do i tell them learning can wait, dont do too much homework?? Encourage slow development?  Your telling me Fortenite is better than reading??(unless your trying to be a pro-gamer)    I read theese comments laughing and lets be real,, Do your kids aspire to go to the junior college or the the top University? or sets his /her goals to be even higher or limitless.  Which one do you encourage, vs. which is the alternative?
I dont take it personal,,but i sense some negativity about the thread, some post with the sentiment that i might be a bad parent with overexpectations.  how  Silly.

,, But the BEST,, always get fuel for their fire from those  competitive critics.  who have usually never played any active sport in there life. (Armchair Al/ annieO)

So take this to sleep.....  YOU WILL NEVER BECOME BETTER AT ANYTHING WITHOUT PRACTICE  (  and thats at any speed)...!!


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> As i said,,, And ill defend my thread (seems like i have too)  this Duel play is a short term "option" for someone called a "tweener"  (Skill level, Age,, size) An option to help speed up the growth curve.
> Some kids never want to excel,, they are more comfortable mid-pack (no expectations), they are more afraid of the expectations of being the BEST and the ostracizing of being the worst. (Some embrace it, some dont) Some can handle it,,, Some cant.   Some kids NEVER get to play for a championship, let alone win one.   Its an experience that helps and cultivates competitive play adds confirmation in some of the "hard work paying off" aspect.
> Theres a growth in passion as well when kids are successful, make friendships/teammates.     Most of the kids "not playing again" are likely on a losing team. Vs.   continued play on a winning team. (fact)
> My son was discouraged bye a badd coach,,, one of which 70% of the team never want to play the sport again.  (The coaches own son included) Talk about fair,,, thats ridiculous. And should be upsetting to any parent. (spirit damaging)
> ...


I dont see anyone being negative. They are responding, mostly trough years of experience dealing with our soccer environment - mainly So Cal Soccer. You're responses are fallacious. Again, if you have been on the this board long enough, especially the old board, you have come across this type of post over and over. Education to Soccer is Apples and Oranges. Dual Play, can i get a link to scientific data on that?


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## Messi>CR7 (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> As i said,,, And ill defend my thread (seems like i have too)  this Duel play is a short term "option" for someone called a "tweener"  (Skill level, Age,, size) An option to help speed up the growth curve.
> Some kids never want to excel,, they are more comfortable mid-pack (no expectations), they are more afraid of the expectations of being the BEST and the ostracizing of being the worst. (Some embrace it, some dont) Some can handle it,,, Some cant.   Some kids NEVER get to play for a championship, let alone win one.   Its an experience that helps and cultivates competitive play adds confirmation in some of the "hard work paying off" aspect.
> Theres a growth in passion as well when kids are successful, make friendships/teammates.     Most of the kids "not playing again" are likely on a losing team. Vs.   continued play on a winning team. (fact)
> My son was discouraged bye a badd coach,,, one of which 70% of the team never want to play the sport again.  (The coaches own son included) Talk about fair,,, thats ridiculous. And should be upsetting to any parent. (spirit damaging)
> ...


Man, you remind me of those annoying people at a poker table.  They can't stop complaining about a bad beat when they lose, and they also can't stop offering unsolicited poker lessons to others when they win.

Adding you to my ignore list.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Man, you remind me of those annoying people at a poker table.  They can't stop complaining about a bad beat when they lose, and they also can't stop offering unsolicited poker lessons to others when they win.
> 
> Adding you to my ignore list.


You just called him Phil Hellmuth. Then they beg a bunch of questions but really don’t care for your opinion or want an answer. They just want you to agree how good a player they are. They can’t believe you know more than them or they give advice to you like you can’t calculate basic odds -  when you’ve taken master’s level courses on Game Theory. Sadly same guys are the ones that kill a solid game because they find the hothead who likes to punch stuff rather than use their words. Smh


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## RuffRef (Apr 12, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Man, you remind me of those annoying people at a poker table.  They can't stop complaining about a bad beat when they lose, and they also can't stop offering unsolicited poker lessons to others when they win.
> 
> Adding you to my ignore list.


Maybe you should play soccer , instead of poker.  Not a jab, but something tells me your not good at either,,,  probably because you dont practice....... enough!!


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 12, 2019)

RuffRef said:


> Maybe you should play soccer , instead of poker.  Not a jab, but something tells me your not good at either,,,  probably because you dont practice....... enough!!


Smh. This thread Reminds me of Southpark Gay Fish Episode


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