# When is enough, enough?



## timbuck (Apr 24, 2018)

At what point do youth soccer customers (IE - us), say "screw it."  We'll play a 12 game fall season.  We'll do State Cup.  We'll play in 2 or 3 tournaments in the Summer.  And if one of those tournaments happens to fall during a weekend that we have planned our family vacation -  Too bad.   We'll play a bit in Spring.  And we're going to do it without having to ever get on an airplane.  Oh and-  We aren't going to pay more than $2,000 for the basic needs of soccer (fields, leagues, refs, coaches, uniforms).

Between DA, DPL, ECNL, ECNL Reserve, CRL, Discovery League, Super Y, Flight 1, Flight 2, Flight 3, Premier, Gold, Silver Elite, Silver, Bronze, Governors, Presidents, National Cup, Far West Regionals,yada yada.... Why not just play in the highest tier you can in either SCDSL, Coast or Presidio and call it a day?

Is this really all being done to make it easier for college scouts to give a kid a partial college scholarship?  Or for a player to become a National team player?  Do you know how many senior national team players are added each year?  
Seriously-  Seems all of these new leagues are there for a "Pathway"  - A pathway to what?  What was the "pathway" 6 years ago?  
Has it gotten easier for players and parents to get to whatever level they are trying to get to?  
Why do youth soccer clubs care about making it easier for college scouts to see top players?  Is it just for marketing purposes so they can say "we placed 12 kids in a D1 program over the past 3 years?" 

A good coach, is a good coach.  Regardless of what acronym league they are playing in.  A jackass coach is a jackass coach.

Rant over (for now)


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## ultimate20 (Apr 24, 2018)

Get it out.


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## younothat (Apr 24, 2018)

/ranton

Marketing 101.....if its new or improved has to be better, right?

Youth sports suffer from   "Grandiose delusions"   

The perceived reality is really much different than all the labels, marketing, and "special" categorizes we try way too hard to fit into.  







The #1 reasons kids play sports is to have fun, when the game is not "fun" anymore they don''t play
http://changingthegameproject.com/kids-play-sports/

"When asked what made sports fun, here were their top answers:

Trying your best
When the coach treats a player with respect
Getting playing time
Playing well as a team
Getting along with teammates
Being active
Doesn't matter what league they are playing in but what does matter is the above,  take the game back and make things fun again so they get more enjoyment out of playing.


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## Chalklines (Apr 24, 2018)

Bussiness 101

Bait and Switch.


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## mirage (Apr 24, 2018)

timbuck said:


> At what point do youth soccer customers (IE - us), say "screw it."  ..........Rant over (for now)


Bad day Timmy? 

Sounds like you're describing a case of parent burnout syndrome (PBS)....  We only talk about the player but parents can suffer too.

PBS can strike any parent at any time.  It is especially common when their child is rostered on a team that plays at a higher level than the kid's ability, resulting in lack of playing time and starting to hate going to practices and games.  Other kids on the team sigh when this kid is put on the field and parents hate other parents.  Also feel why is my kid not playing at the out of town tournament, when we've paid all these extra costs to be there.  The least a coach can do is to provide adequate playing time...

To seek  cure for PBS, the child is moved from team to team, but never at an appropriate level team.  Parents gasp at the notion of "moving down" a tier or two.  But NOOOO.  What would the parents say to their friends?  What would the child say to his/her friends?  Not a chance.

"Why not just play in the highest tier you can in either SCDSL, Coast or Presidio and call it a day?"

You do realize that vast majority of the club teams do just what you've said, right?  Only the higher aspiring teams (try) do more than fall, state tournament and 3~4 local tournaments the entire year.

Seriously for moment, though, the main reason why most kids play beyond/other than, the basic league (all the other alphabets you'd listed) is because they want to.  Those players want to compete against better players and teams, especially as they get older.  Its the competitiveness within that drives them to seek opportunities at higher levels than they currently are in.  Its not about college recruiting.  That just happens to be a windfall for those players.

So more options we have for those players, the better.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 24, 2018)

mirage said:


> Bad day Timmy?
> 
> Sounds like you're describing a case of parent burnout syndrome (PBS)....  We only talk about the player but parents can suffer too.
> 
> ...


so  a basic structure looks like this:

Current_Level = money + skills + coach_opinion + parent_opinion; //weight of parent opinions, money offset
Real_Level = skills + parent_opinion + coach_opinion; //money would NEVER play a factor here
Stress_Level =  Current_Level - Real_Level;
if (Stress_Level >0){ PBS = true; rant = false; Current_Level = 0; coach_opinion = 0; player_happiness--; recruiting = 0; tournaments = WHATEVER; coach_opinion = 0; parent_opinion = 100; } 
else
{PBS = false; rant = true; tournaments = 25; Current_Level++; player_happiness = COMPETITION; recruiting = COLLEGE; coach_opinion = 100; parent_opinion = 0;}

return 0; //always returns nothing

lucky im not a programmer, seriously flawed code. havent even factored in club_hardsell or parent_madness_factor


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 24, 2018)

So true! As a parent just over 1 year into club, the whole club scene here is pure madness. Different leagues everywhere, all overlapping themselves in quality. In the past three scrimmages, we have played a flight 2 team and won (yes I know it doesn't matter about winning in scrimmages, especially at U-Little), a flight 3 team and tied and an AYSO Extra team and been destroyed. Simply put, there are so many players who are in the wrong level based on their current development status.

There is no need to have so many leagues, divisions and sub-divisions. My buddy in England has a kid who is playing, all of the local teams are in the same league pyramid. His kid plays in Division 6, and everyone is fine with that, if they do well, they can go to Division 5 and if they smash everyone they can petition for a double promotion to Division 4.

Pick a coach you like, be patient and work with the child and coach. Pick a club who put development over $$$ and be loyal. Obviously there are lots of clubs who need to change their stance by the sounds of things on this forum.


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## coachsamy (Apr 24, 2018)

timbuck said:


> At what point do youth soccer customers (IE - us), say "screw it."  We'll play a 12 game fall season.  We'll do State Cup.  We'll play in 2 or 3 tournaments in the Summer.  And if one of those tournaments happens to fall during a weekend that we have planned our family vacation -  Too bad.   We'll play a bit in Spring.  And we're going to do it without having to ever get on an airplane.  Oh and-  We aren't going to pay more than $2,000 for the basic needs of soccer (fields, leagues, refs, coaches, uniforms).
> 
> Between DA, DPL, ECNL, ECNL Reserve, CRL, Discovery League, Super Y, Flight 1, Flight 2, Flight 3, Premier, Gold, Silver Elite, Silver, Bronze, Governors, Presidents, National Cup, Far West Regionals,yada yada.... Why not just play in the highest tier you can in either SCDSL, Coast or Presidio and call it a day?
> 
> ...


As long people keep paying for all this bullshitry, more and more will continue to come. 

The best thing I'd done is pulled my DD out of club, she's enjoying high school, and other sports which should keep her in shape for the next HS soccer season. In the meantime whatever seasonal sport within the school and indoor with friends if that's what she wants to do. And she's enjoying her high school years without being in a car going to practices and traveling 2-3 hours for a game in the weekends. 

Good post!


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## coachsamy (Apr 24, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> So true! As a parent just over 1 year into club, the whole club scene here is pure madness. Different leagues everywhere, all overlapping themselves in quality. In the past three scrimmages, we have played a flight 2 team and won (yes I know it doesn't matter about winning in scrimmages, especially at U-Little), a flight 3 team and tied and an AYSO Extra team and been destroyed. Simply put, there are so many players who are in the wrong level based on their current development status.
> 
> There is no need to have so many leagues, divisions and sub-divisions. My buddy in England has a kid who is playing, all of the local teams are in the same league pyramid. His kid plays in Division 6, and everyone is fine with that, if they do well, they can go to Division 5 and if they smash everyone they can petition for a double promotion to Division 4.
> 
> Pick a coach you like, be patient and work with the child and coach. Pick a club who put development over $$$ and be loyal. Obviously there are lots of clubs who need to change their stance by the sounds of things on this forum.


England also happen to have the best paying soccer league in the world! The US is pure robbery!


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## coachsamy (Apr 24, 2018)

mirage said:


> Bad day Timmy?
> 
> Sounds like you're describing a case of parent burnout syndrome (PBS)....  We only talk about the player but parents can suffer too.
> 
> ...


The Aid got you very sugar up there!

These higher levels is a bunch of non sense that tracksuit wearing used car salesmen put in the kool aid you are sipping on!


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## Grace T. (Apr 24, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> so  a basic structure looks like this:
> 
> Current_Level = money + skills + coach_opinion + parent_opinion; //weight of parent opinions, money offset
> Real_Level = skills + parent_opinion + coach_opinion; //money would NEVER play a factor here
> ...


"skills" would have to be broken into 4 parts: 1) natural skills (the natural talent the player brings to the table which reflects the ultimate potential for the players growth), 2) learned skills (what the player has learned so far), 3) work ethic (the potential for the player to hit the height of his/her natural and lerned skill potential) and 4) development age (where the player is on the development curve...e.g. are they a Dec birthday or a January, where are they on the puberty track, where are they on the mental maturity).  Which is part of the problem with "coach opinion" and "parent opinion" if you aren't one of the darling acknowledged 10% ....it's just really hard to get an accurate read on what their skills are and what their potential is...in the last 3 months I've had coaches tell me [including some with nothing to gain from their assessment, and from silver to extras] my kid belongs in AYSO core v. he's a natural in the keep position and we need to start thinking of pre-DA program.   I'm absolutely certain he's not Ronaldo....I'm pretty sure he's not in the darling 10% right now....I'm pretty sure he's not garbage....I can generally honestly see where he stands v. any particular peer on a one on one/position v position comparison.... and I know his keep skills are stronger than his field skills.........beyond that ^\__/^

The other thing is that too often (not all the time) coach's only care about where are they now in these skills (because that means, being human, it's less work for them)....parents focus too much on the where will they be skills (sometimes too optimistically) because long term (looking at pros/college or HS) that's what matters.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 24, 2018)

I'm burned out for about a week and then back to the grind!!! LOL
Here's an interesting article by the way

http://goalnation.com/youth-soccer-european-vs-american-player-development/


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 24, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> So true! As a parent just over 1 year into club, the whole club scene here is pure madness. Different leagues everywhere, all overlapping themselves in quality. In the past three scrimmages, we have played a flight 2 team and won (yes I know it doesn't matter about winning in scrimmages, especially at U-Little), a flight 3 team and tied and an AYSO Extra team and been destroyed. Simply put, there are so many players who are in the wrong level based on their current development status.
> 
> There is no need to have so many leagues, divisions and sub-divisions. My buddy in England has a kid who is playing, all of the local teams are in the same league pyramid. His kid plays in Division 6, and everyone is fine with that, if they do well, they can go to Division 5 and if they smash everyone they can petition for a double promotion to Division 4.
> 
> Pick a coach you like, be patient and work with the child and coach. Pick a club who put development over $$$ and be loyal. Obviously there are lots of clubs who need to change their stance by the sounds of things on this forum.


The fundamental difference is the US is not community based. In other countries you usually play out of your school/academy. Its local and thus people have PRIDE in playing and play with their friends. This is why you will get someone being a diehard of Fulham vs  Chelsea. Regardless if Fulham is playing D1 or D2 the team still sells tickets.  At youth level they move up as mentioned. Here it is a money making scheme and US Soccer being the biggest benefactor. I only know a couple teams that have entire age groups being handled by one coach - where they can move kids up and down during the season. Teams within their own clubs dont even like lending their players to other teams for fear of coaches poaching their kids. pretty sad.

 So people keep voting in money people and big club soccer continues the scheme. In reality an org like Cal South should have all So Cal teams under them with clubs based out of areas. I believe their are still only 2 teams in the So Cal area that are actually community based teams. Clubs dont want city/county govs to tell them what to do, so they rather pay for fields. Been discussed on other topics. Officials have said what DA was created for. You have to go to small cities or go to MX leagues to see more community based soccer in So Cal - but those have issues as well.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 24, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> "skills" would have to be broken into 4 parts: 1) natural skills (the natural talent the player brings to the table which reflects the ultimate potential for the players growth), 2) learned skills (what the player has learned so far), 3) work ethic (the potential for the player to hit the height of his/her natural and lerned skill potential) and 4) development age (where the player is on the development curve...e.g. are they a Dec birthday or a January, where are they on the puberty track, where are they on the mental maturity).  Which is part of the problem with "coach opinion" and "parent opinion" if you aren't one of the darling acknowledged 10% ....it's just really hard to get an accurate read on what their skills are and what their potential is...in the last 3 months I've had coaches tell me [including some with nothing to gain from their assessment, and from silver to extras] my kid belongs in AYSO core v. he's a natural in the keep position and we need to start thinking of pre-DA program.   I'm absolutely certain he's not Ronaldo....I'm pretty sure he's not in the darling 10% right now....I'm pretty sure he's not garbage....I can generally honestly see where he stands v. any particular peer on a one on one/position v position comparison.... and I know his keep skills are stronger than his field skills.........beyond that ^\__/^
> 
> The other thing is that too often (not all the time) coach's only care about where are they now in these skills (because that means, being human, it's less work for them)....parents focus too much on the where will they be skills (sometimes too optimistically) because long term (looking at pros/college or HS) that's what matters.


exactly, all opinion except for the very small group of kids who everyone can agree are "naturals".  even then when you get to DA, they are looking at measurables - which doesnt always mean a player will pan out. given its about money, they dont want to "invest" in someone that might have borderline desirable measurables.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 24, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> England also happen to have the best paying soccer league in the world! The US is pure robbery!


yes but money has to come from somewhere. there are ways, but would mean US SOccer would have to make less money or have to find it using other avenues. Given who is in charge and what they have said, money is not going back. which means the systems stays as is where is


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 24, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> The fundamental difference is the US is not community based. In other countries you usually play out of your school/academy. Its local and thus people have PRIDE in playing and play with their friends. This is why you will get someone being a diehard of Fulham vs  Chelsea. Regardless if Fulham is playing D1 or D2 the team still sells tickets.  At youth level they move up as mentioned. Here it is a money making scheme and US Soccer being the biggest benefactor. I only know a couple teams that have entire age groups being handled by one coach - where they can move kids up and down during the season. Teams within their own clubs dont even like lending their players to other teams for fear of coaches poaching their kids. pretty sad.


Agree with this, but still we can work together and have all the teams play in the same league pyramid. Makes it a lot easier to place your player at the suitable level, everyone would travel a lot less and still get a good product. There is a huge grassroots system in England but it is done via local FA's, so travel is 45 minutes max. If a team has to spend more time on the road to the game than on the field playing the game, the league system isn't working, unless it is the top teams in the county.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 24, 2018)

With the escalating increase in club fees, this will change in 3 years to 5-years as the money begins to dry up.    Someone is going to need make changes or they will see a significant drop in participation. .

At a smaller scale, I am already seeing a decrease in participation at the  Girls 2009-2008 level tryouts in North Orange County.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 24, 2018)

Yes there will definitely be a decline. Seems like more clubs are opening up recreational programs, which are a lower cost of course. Unfortunately, if the big clubs want to fully fund their DA programs (which should be free in my opinion) then they are going to target their flight 2/3 teams and their rec programs as the check books for this.


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## 3JMommy (Apr 24, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> So true! As a parent just over 1 year into club, the whole club scene here is pure madness. Different leagues everywhere, all overlapping themselves in quality. In the past three scrimmages, we have played a flight 2 team and won (yes I know it doesn't matter about winning in scrimmages, especially at U-Little), a flight 3 team and tied and an AYSO Extra team and been destroyed. Simply put, there are so many players who are in the wrong level based on their current development status.
> 
> There is no need to have so many leagues, divisions and sub-divisions. My buddy in England has a kid who is playing, all of the local teams are in the same league pyramid. His kid plays in Division 6, and everyone is fine with that, if they do well, they can go to Division 5 and if they smash everyone they can petition for a double promotion to Division 4.
> 
> Pick a coach you like, be patient and work with the child and coach. _Pick a club who put development over $$$ and be loyal_. Obviously there are lots of clubs who need to change their stance by the sounds of things on this forum.


When you find one or two of those clubs, can you post em up here?


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## mirage (Apr 24, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> The Aid got you very sugar up there!
> 
> These higher levels is a bunch of non sense that tracksuit wearing used car salesmen put in the kool aid you are sipping on!


LOL, thanks cs.  No coolaid here.  I can honestly tell you that there are real legit players on some DA teams and there are plenty of mediocre players too.

My older kid played DA, CRL, NPL, Flight 1, Premier at different times in his club soccer life and now playing in college.  So when I made the generalized statement with lots of sarcasm, clearly it was lost in the writing....

The only serious part of the post was that real competitive players do seek more competition and could care less winning against lesser opponents.  And if that's what you're calling nonsense being sold by used car salesmen, we clearly disagree.

Timmy probably was sitting in a meeting bored and vented some common frustrations shared by many parents of younger players.  Since you've taken your kid out of club soccer, your perspective is clearly different than mine.  I have an '02 playing club still.  I don't place any expectations on my kids athletically.  I let them lead what they want to do.  I just build bridges and open doors so the kids can walk over it and through the doors to do what they want to do.  The only adult supervision is occasional guidance and course correction, if needed.

So much of the posters here have younger players and simply have not experienced the evolution of youth players as they reach U16, 17, 18 and onto college, if at all.  Its in their writings - mostly girls and below U12.  So much happens between now and then.  If they end up with a kid that has a drive and passion for soccer as an older player, Timmy's post makes no sense.  If they never get to that point, then it make every sense.

Just for the record, I've never seen a car salesman wearing a tracksuit but you must have.... And no coolaid but McCallen 18 - yes!


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## timbuck (Apr 24, 2018)

For your college playing son -  Did he find the competition in CRL and NPL much different than Flight 1/Premier?
Was DA a different level?  (Sounds like he was playing after DA for boys had been around for a few years).


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 24, 2018)

If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.

There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.

How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 24, 2018)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I'm burned out for about a week and then back to the grind!!! LOL
> Here's an interesting article by the way
> 
> http://goalnation.com/youth-soccer-european-vs-american-player-development/


Read the article. The guy is GPS, which is a Bayern Munich "affiliate" -which we know what that really is. Selling trips for European "experience". I know a couple coaches who take players to Europe to train - but they dont make money off the kids. He has a better perspective abiut training but isnt doing it solely benefit the kids


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

3JMommy said:


> When you find one or two of those clubs, can you post em up here?


Haha well we are happy at our current club, fees well under 2k including uniforms and have a great professional coach. Nothing is perfect though!


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.
> 
> There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.
> 
> How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?


Yes exactly my view. For us in South Orange County, there should be no reason to play any games outside of this region. There are hundreds of kids playing in dozens and dozens of teams who could all be playing each other. But as you said, everyone has to be in an 'elite' league or near the top. Better to have multiple leagues so more people can be known as the top teams in their circuit. 

Get all the clubs together in the same gaming circuit, so everyone knows where their kid is at and what level their kid should be playing in. This will calm everyone down once they realise there are 100+ kids ahead of their kid, rather than telling everyone they are flight 1 or flight 2 (but be flight 1 next year) and then into the DA system, which we all know wont happen for the vast majority of these kids. At least in the 7v7 and 9v9 leagues, keep it fun whilst also being competitive (yes its possible) and then when things get to 11v11 then it starts to get serious and teams can travel slightly further if they are talented and there is no competition for them in South OC. That should be the only reason to travel a great distance.


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## mirage (Apr 25, 2018)

timbuck said:


> For your college playing son -  Did he find the competition in CRL and NPL much different than Flight 1/Premier?
> Was DA a different level?  (Sounds like he was playing after DA for boys had been around for a few years).


The short answer is yes.

Thing to recognize is that CRL require qualifying results (either how they finish prior season National Cup or via qualifying playin tournament).  Also, both SCDSL and CSL's top tier is only a partial set, meaning that at CRL, you'll get the combined higher level teams from both leagues in a single gaming circuit - like how it used to be at CSL pre SCDSL split of clubs.

NPL not so much as they are function of the clubs that sign up.  Not much different than SCDSL, except that when my older kid played NPL, it was pre DA age then (U13) and the teams were more like the CRL mix than today.  I believe NPL is not all that meaningful other than the fact that it has its own national championship.

DA is all over the place.  At the older ages, about the half of DA teams (e.g., MLS DA's and few others) are head and shoulders above the rest.  The bottom 1/3 of DA teams is on par with Flt1/Premier teams and some will handle those bottom DA teams easily.  

At the upper end of DA teams, they are simply in a another level.  An example is Portland Timbers (other MLS DA's are alike) where all but a single handful is from Oregon.  Almost the entire roster is imported from all over the country and some from outside of the country.  They also have their USL contracted players play in DA once the USL season is over and they qualify based on the birth year.  In particular, this season, Timbers DA had a former FCGS players that signed Timbers II USL contract, and actually played in few of their MLS games play in their 99/00 DA team.

So you can see that as the players get older, the gap widens between the local league and others.


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## 3JMommy (Apr 25, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Haha well we are happy at our current club, fees well under 2k including uniforms and have a great professional coach. Nothing is perfect though!


Yeah--same, but finding a club/coach that supports the "teacher" mentality of helping kids learn and develop in the best environment possible is not always an achievable goal for some. It's unfortunate that it has come to that with youth sports.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 25, 2018)

mirage said:


> The short answer is yes.
> 
> Thing to recognize is that CRL require qualifying results (either how they finish prior season National Cup or via qualifying playin tournament).  Also, both SCDSL and CSL's top tier is only a partial set, meaning that at CRL, you'll get the combined higher level teams from both leagues in a single gaming circuit - like how it used to be at CSL pre SCDSL split of clubs.
> 
> ...


For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only. They can have as many teams they can get - as long as they fit the bill. As mentioned in articles MLS (via US Soccer) uses club system (parents money, clubs, even odp) to develop kids to point where an MLS can come in and bring them in - upper talent/parents now more saavy. This would shut down a ton of issues - then again big clubs will probably just come up with some shiny new circuit to market.


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## coachsamy (Apr 25, 2018)

mirage said:


> LOL, thanks cs.  No coolaid here.  I can honestly tell you that there are real legit players on some DA teams and there are plenty of mediocre players too.
> 
> My older kid played DA, CRL, NPL, Flight 1, Premier at different times in his club soccer life and now playing in college.  So when I made the generalized statement with lots of sarcasm, clearly it was lost in the writing....
> 
> ...


I sense some sort of sarcasm in your post, but sounded too serious so thanks for clarifying that. We agree in many things such as DA being above all other competitions, that players need to play against equally (close) skilled kids and how other posters feel. My kids hate it when they play less skilled teams.

This is the part that I feel Timmy is completely right is that there are way too many leagues and acronyms that are all rec in nature. DA for boys and ECNL for girls was the standard for elite, now ECNL is fighting to keep that title agaisnt GDA, other than that all those other names (DPL, EGSL, Flight Elite, Super Crap, etc.) are watering down local leagues, local competition just to grab money. What is the point of a team traveling far away every other weekend if they are not a DA team? Coaches per diem? Hotel points? Me personally I don't justify that waste of time and money just to be in a club for bragging purposes, which is what a lot of parents do(Which is another issue).

I did pick up the sarcasm in your last line about the tracksuits. Gave me a good laugh!


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only. They can have as many teams they can get - as long as they fit the bill. As mentioned in articles MLS (via US Soccer) uses club system (parents money, clubs, even odp) to develop kids to point where an MLS can come in and bring them in - upper talent/parents now more saavy. This would shut down a ton of issues - then again big clubs will probably just come up with some shiny new circuit to market.


Yes this makes so much sense to me. Keep the DA stuff to the professional teams, not the local teams. I spoke with someone from OCSC a few weeks back and they seem pretty happy to not build a club program at the moment and instead are forming relationships with big clubs, to take the older players, when they are ready. They want 50% of their roster to come from Orange County within 5 years.

It does seem there are too many DA teams to keep everyone at the elite level. Also, as a club newbie, what is pre-academy? I see this promoted all the time, does this basically just mean flight 1 teams who think they are good enough to compete at DA but didn't get accepted? There isn't a pre-academy league is there? (although if there isn't, I bet there will be one soon, more acronyms to get my head around!)


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## timbuck (Apr 25, 2018)

Pre-academy is usually when a club has academy status, but this age group doesn’t have academy yet. 
This year for girls that would have been the 05 age group.  Next year, these girls will be able to play academy. 

What will be interesting is how much of a club’s “pre academy” roster will be on the “academy” roster.  
I know Pats pre academy roster will look pretty different from their Academy roster.  Same with West Coast/OC Surf.


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## younothat (Apr 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.
> 
> There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.
> 
> How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?


The travel time > greater than the play time thing each week is problem,  I'm not sure if you or somebody else mentioned that in a post recently but I tend to agree.

If you're in the DA you can spend 2-3 days in travel time to play 1-2 games on the weekend.   Leave Friday night,  go up to Seattle, Vancouver, or another state,  play Saturday and then hopefully Sunday.  If your lucky and the weather is good starters get a game in half or more of playing time, some subs get 20-40 minutes, and some players spend the whole 3 days and don't play.

One of the  biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations *#prorel *(pro/rel) in the USA  so the competition is uneven and gets stale.   The MLS teams on the top have the resources,  draw, pick of the players and everybody else is scrambling all the time to try to keep up.    

There is really no youth soccer pyramid in the US but rather a bunch of competing self serving fiefdoms and clubs  more focused on marketing and drawing the most business out of a disguised non-profit orginizations that don't care much about local or grass roots soccer.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Pre-academy is usually when a club has academy status, but this age group doesn’t have academy yet.
> This year for girls that would have been the 05 age group.  Next year, these girls will be able to play academy.
> 
> What will be interesting is how much of a club’s “pre academy” roster will be on the “academy” roster.
> I know Pats pre academy roster will look pretty different from their Academy roster.  Same with West Coast/OC Surf.


Thanks. Saw an 08 pre academy and assumed it was just a marketing ploy to get more players in. Why not just advertise as flight 1 and be genuine with people. Oh well never going to happen. This is another problem with having local clubs have DA programs, they will abuse it to try and con parents into signing for their lower flight teams. Our club managed to get an 07 player into the LAG DA program, when the local LAG club failed to produce a single player to make it.


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## mirage (Apr 25, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only.......


What I agree is that MLS academies should play in the league of their own that probably coincide with the MLS games itself.  In other words, they should sit above DA league.

If there is an MLS game on Sunday, the academy teams from those two respective MLS clubs can play on Saturday at one the practice fields that the club owns (because they don't want to incur the cost of opening up the stadium and take a chance for the field to get torn up prior to the main event).

My personal thought is that non-MLS DA clubs should exist and be a stepping stone into the MLS DA teams.  This way, the access to DA can still be regionalized and relatively local for everyone.   For those that are cut above can continue onto any of the MLS academies.  And it won't impact the college recruiting that goes on currently at DA Playoffs/Showcases.  Since MLS academies are interested in finding future pro players, much of the regular DA team players can still focus on college soccer.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

younothat said:


> One of the  biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations *#prorel *(pro/rel) in the USA  so the competition is uneven and gets stale.   The MLS teams on the top have the resources,  draw, pick of the players and everybody else is scrambling all the time to try to keep up.
> 
> There is really no youth soccer pyramid in the US but rather a bunch of competing self serving fiefdoms and clubs  more focused on marketing and drawing the most business out of a disguised non-profit orginizations that don't care much about local or grass roots soccer.


Yes this is the big problem. As I said earlier, in the past three weeks we have played against a F2 team, a F3 team and an AYSO Extra team. The AYSO team were strongest, then the F3 team and the F2 team were the weakest. So clearly parents are being duped by marketing and profit rather than focusing on where their child should be for the best development.

By the sounds of everyone on this forum, there will never be a pyramid that encapsulates all club teams, so the madness will continue for years to come!


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## mirage (Apr 25, 2018)

younothat said:


> If you're in the DA you can spend 2-3 days in travel time to play 1-2 games on the weekend.   Leave Friday night,  go up to Seattle, Vancouver, or another state,  play Saturday and then hopefully Sunday.  If your lucky and the weather is good starters get a game in half or more of playing time, some subs get 20-40 minutes, and some players spend the whole 3 days and don't play.


Just to add bit of color on this statement.  Most DA clubs I am aware of take smaller roster (meaning not the entire roster but within the limitation of sub rule) on travel.  They usually play everyone that travels.

The Friday travel is typically during the day so they miss school on Friday of travel and they play in adverse weather.  I mean, if rain/sleet/snow stops the game, they would lose more than half the schedule in the Pacific NW.



younothat said:


> One of the  biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations *#prorel *(pro/rel) in the USA  so the competition is uneven and gets stale.....


Completely agree.  Would be much better to have promotion and relegation in US between MLS>NASL>USL.  The logistics and stadium issues would be complicated but it would result in better soccer in the country.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

mirage said:


> My personal thought is that non-MLS DA clubs should exist and be a stepping stone into the MLS DA teams.  This way, the access to DA can still be regionalized and relatively local for everyone.   For those that are cut above can continue onto any of the MLS academies.  And it won't impact the college recruiting that goes on currently at DA Playoffs/Showcases.  Since MLS academies are interested in finding future pro players, much of the regular DA team players can still focus on college soccer.


Why cant these teams just be in flight 1, or gold or whatever? Have the top 10 CSL teams in the gold division and the top 10 SCDSL in flight 1 and then everyone else be silver-elite or flight 2 and below.

Those 20 teams can then be the feeder clubs for the MLS DA programs. For everyone else, they can compete locally with the goal to be recruited by a flight 1/gold team. Keep the top level of CSL/SCDSL small and tight.


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## Messi>CR7 (Apr 25, 2018)

My 10-year-old DD knows if you finish in the bottom 3 in La Liga, you get relegated to Segunda.  If you finish in the bottom 3 in Segunda, then you get relegated to Segunda B.

When I tried to explain to her the options between DA, ECNL, SCDSL to her over the weekend, she lost interest on the topic very quickly.


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## mirage (Apr 25, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Why cant these teams just be in flight 1, or gold or whatever? ......


You must be Youngers parent.  Your thinking too regionally.  The part of the appeal of DA is playing in the national gaming circuit.  You quickly run out of competition at the top, if its only regional as you've suggested.


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## timbuck (Apr 25, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Yes this is the big problem. As I said earlier, in the past three weeks we have played against a F2 team, a F3 team and *an AYSO Extra team.* The AYSO team were strongest, then the F3 team and the F2 team were the weakest. So clearly parents are being duped by marketing and profit rather than focusing on where their child should be for the best development.
> 
> By the sounds of everyone on this forum, there will never be a pyramid that encapsulates all club teams, so the madness will continue for years to come!


Not sure of your age group -  But I would say the "Extra" team has decided "enough is enough."  They have players that can compete at higher levels, but have decided "Why pay the money?  We have good players.  A "good enough" coach" and we don't have to follow the latest trend."  Maybe in a few years, that team will decide they need a different level of competition.  But for now, they are spending $300-$500 for a year of Extra instead of $2,000-$3,000 for the next level.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

mirage said:


> You must be Youngers parent.  Your thinking too regionally.  The part of the appeal of DA is playing in the national gaming circuit.  You quickly run out of competition at the top, if its only regional as you've suggested.


Yes I am, I will admit I am naïve in this whole area, but it just doesn't make sense to me! Ha!

But people are saying that some DA teams are on a lower level to other DA programs. So if you cant beat the local competition/current flight 1 teams, why on earth would you compete nationally? Conquer your own back yard before you travel to someone else's turf, surely? The whole concept of the DA program is for the elite kids right? There shouldn't be dozens of teams unless they can all compete at the top top level, which people on this forum are disputing.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Not sure of your age group -  But I would say the "Extra" team has decided "enough is enough."  They have players that can compete at higher levels, but have decided "Why pay the money?  We have good players.  A "good enough" coach" and we don't have to follow the latest trend."  Maybe in a few years, that team will decide they need a different level of competition.  But for now, they are spending $300-$500 for a year of Extra instead of $2,000-$3,000 for the next level.


2008s, so I'm aware I'm at the younger stage of the soccer parent life and still have a lot to see and learn! Yes not long ago we were in the 'extra' circuit and there are many teams in there that could easily compete in the club circuit but still find good local competition in their AYSO Extra circuit and I don't blame them at all!


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## mirage (Apr 25, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Yes I am, I will admit I am naïve in this whole area, but it just doesn't make sense to me! Ha!
> 
> .................There shouldn't be dozens of teams unless they can all compete at the top top level, which people on this forum are disputing.


If your kid stays with soccer into olders, perhaps you'll change your mind.  If this is your first time through the ages, its natural that your perspective is heavily shaped by what you know, and not know what you don't know.

As for number of teams, there are exactly 12 teams (a dozen, not dozens) from U15 and above in boys SW conference.  And if you  up to U17/16, that number drops to 11 teams and by the time you get to U19/18, there are 10 teams in SW, or Total of 19 teams in the entire western region (SW+NW) - from Vancouver Canada to San Diego, as far east as Salt Lake City and Casa Grande in AZ.

Just keep an open mind and you'll discover that there's a whole different complexity to youth soccer through the ages.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

mirage said:


> If your kid stays with soccer into olders, perhaps you'll change your mind.  If this is your first time through the ages, its natural that your perspective is heavily shaped by what you know, and not know what you don't know.
> 
> As for number of teams, there are exactly 12 teams (a dozen, not dozens) from U15 and above in boys SW conference.  And if you  up to U17/16, that number drops to 11 teams and by the time you get to U19/18, there are 10 teams in SW, or Total of 19 teams in the entire western region (SW+NW) - from Vancouver Canada to San Diego, as far east as Salt Lake City and Casa Grande in AZ.
> 
> Just keep an open mind and you'll discover that there's a whole different complexity to youth soccer through the ages.


Looking forward to learning more, I'm sure by that age, the soccer scene will be even more complex than it is at the moment. At the end of the day, I want my son to be playing level competition and the closer that it is to home, the better for everyone. Even at the U-Little level, we are driving past cities full of equal level teams to play other teams when we could all play each other and save everyone the hassle. Then the best few teams within our cities can travel further to play further afield.


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## zebrafish (Apr 25, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Looking forward to learning more, I'm sure by that age, the soccer scene will be even more complex than it is at the moment. At the end of the day, I want my son to be playing level competition and the closer that it is to home, the better for everyone. Even at the U-Little level, we are driving past cities full of equal level teams to play other teams when we could all play each other and save everyone the hassle. Then the best few teams within our cities can travel further to play further afield.


I'm in a similar boat. The Extra/AYSO in our area has been pillaged by all the local club teams as people have been sold a false bill of goods. I've been lucky to find a club team where my daughter is playing at the appropriate level and we have a coach who is willing to listen to feedback from parents about not wanting to travel 100+ miles to play a team that is an equivalent challenge to one down the street. Honestly, the coach probably has similar goals to me/you -- he/she doesn't want to drive 100 miles or be staying in a hotel all weekend. So some polite, gentle feedback/pressure might be useful if other parents feel similarly. By no means is it perfect, but it is the best of a host of imperfect options for us.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Apr 25, 2018)

zebrafish said:


> I'm in a similar boat. The Extra/AYSO in our area has been pillaged by all the local club teams as people have been sold a false bill of goods. I've been lucky to find a club team where my daughter is playing at the appropriate level and we have a coach who is willing to listen to feedback from parents about not wanting to travel 100+ miles to play a team that is an equivalent challenge to one down the street. Honestly, the coach probably has similar goals to me/you -- he/she doesn't want to drive 100 miles or be staying in a hotel all weekend. So some polite, gentle feedback/pressure might be useful if other parents feel similarly. By no means is it perfect, but it is the best of a host of imperfect options for us.


Glad to hear you have found a good solution for your daughter. Yes our coach doesn't like traveling, we didn't enter a spring league and he has been sourcing local games for us since we finished State Cup. All between Tustin and Ladera so everything pretty local.


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## gkrent (Apr 25, 2018)

Ah, the good ole' days...when Premier was the best of the best....


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## SocalPapa (Apr 25, 2018)

zebrafish said:


> I'm in a similar boat. The Extra/AYSO in our area has been pillaged by all the local club teams as people have been sold a false bill of goods.


With the expansion of AYSO club programs it will be interesting to see if more AYSO Extra teams end up staying together longer.  At the 02 and 01 age groups in State Cup this year both champions (and half of the semi-finalists) were AYSO Extra teams that had converted to AYSO-sponsored club teams when the girls got older.


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 25, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> With the expansion of AYSO club programs it will be interesting to see if more AYSO Extra teams end up staying together longer.  At the 02 and 01 age groups in State Cup this year both champions (and half of the semi-finalists) were AYSO Extra teams that had converted to AYSO-sponsored club teams when the girls got older.


Which Division?


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## timbuck (Apr 25, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> Which Division?


Presidents. Which some will say is watered down now that DA and ecnl has taken away the top. 
But still impressive to get to the finals of a big tournament.


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## coachsamy (Apr 26, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> With the expansion of AYSO club programs it will be interesting to see if more AYSO Extra teams end up staying together longer.  At the 02 and 01 age groups in State Cup this year both champions (and half of the semi-finalists) were AYSO Extra teams that had converted to AYSO-sponsored club teams when the girls got older.


The south bay team 02 team was never an extra team, however is quite an accomplishment for that team to have stuck together and win their 2nd presidents cup.  They had survived talent pilfering and they keep going strong.


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## Pirates1 (Apr 26, 2018)

Here is another option.  Let your son or daughter play and have a good time.  When they are old enough to "RUN" competitively, then have them start Cross Country and Track and Field.  Soccer players make great runners.  If they like the contact then I think the 800m or 1600m are great events for them to run.  They have a better chance at getting a full or partial scholarship in running than they do in soccer.  They have to be on the right team, they have to play the right position, they have to be seen at the right time by the right coach. All these things have to fall into place for there to be a chance.   For college cross country or track.  All they have to do is look at a website that has all the kids times listed from top to bottom.  I believe in the last 10 years 6 or 7 of the winners of the 800m state meet has been a soccer player.  Those kids get FULL RIDE SCHOLARSHIPS to almost any school they want to.  My kids will play for the experience and if they make a team they make a team.  But they will always run for fitness and fun.  
Just my two cents.


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## mirage (Apr 26, 2018)

Pirates1 said:


> Here is another option.  Let your son or daughter play and have a good time.  When they are old enough to "RUN" competitively, then have them start Cross Country and Track and Field.  Soccer players make great runners.............My kids will play for the experience and if they make a team they make a team.  But they will always run for fitness and fun.
> Just my two cents.


My kids HATE running for running sake (i.e., track, cross country).  Have no issue running playing soccer, basketball and so on as a part of the game.  They tell me that its boring as $hit just to run.

That said, one of my kids friend is national ranked 800m and 1600m runner and is being targeted by all the big school since 8th grade.  He was running in high 4's for a mile in 8th grade.  He gave up soccer early on because he liked running for running.  So there's a natural selection of sports for you.  Kids will pick the sports that they are good at or excel at.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 26, 2018)

mirage said:


> He gave up soccer early on because he liked running for running. So there's a natural selection of sports for you. Kids will pick the sports that they are good at or excel at.


Agreed, and this natural selection goes for most kids involved in sport. You want to do more of what you’re good at, although some of this is genetically influenced. I feel the same about running; just doing it for the sake of running, I don’t like but I’ll chase a ball around for 90 minutes and do 10k with a smile on my face

With the natural selection thing, many kids give up soccer for example because they can no longer compete or because their experience wasn’t a good one. Early engagement and/or good coaching helps with the competing element and the experience element is simply down to the club/coach and the environment they create. This is why parents need to be selective about the environment they put kids into; it has long-term effects, positive or negative.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 26, 2018)

Pirates1 said:


> Here is another option.  Let your son or daughter play and have a good time.  When they are old enough to "RUN" competitively, then have them start Cross Country and Track and Field.  Soccer players make great runners.  If they like the contact then I think the 800m or 1600m are great events for them to run.  They have a better chance at getting a full or partial scholarship in running than they do in soccer.  They have to be on the right team, they have to play the right position, they have to be seen at the right time by the right coach. All these things have to fall into place for there to be a chance.   For college cross country or track.  All they have to do is look at a website that has all the kids times listed from top to bottom.  I believe in the last 10 years 6 or 7 of the winners of the 800m state meet has been a soccer player.  Those kids get FULL RIDE SCHOLARSHIPS to almost any school they want to.  My kids will play for the experience and if they make a team they make a team.  But they will always run for fitness and fun.
> Just my two cents.


Good point...but my kid chose to play keeper so as to avoid running.  LOL


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 27, 2018)

Pirates1 said:


> Here is another option.  Let your son or daughter play and have a good time.  When they are old enough to "RUN" competitively, then have them start Cross Country and Track and Field.  Soccer players make great runners.  If they like the contact then I think the 800m or 1600m are great events for them to run.  They have a better chance at getting a full or partial scholarship in running than they do in soccer.  they will always run for fitness and fun.
> Just my two cents.


I agree. My son quit soccer when he entered high school.  He took on cross country and became one of the fastest freshman for his league (5k in 16.57 minutes ).   They do need to enjoy running because unfortunately for cross country they have to run 5 times a week all year long!   If he can continue to do this for the next 3 years he has a great chance at getting a scholarship.


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## Pirates1 (Apr 27, 2018)

I am the first to say running is not for everyone.  During the average soccer game a player will run about 2 to 3 miles.  And with the right group of running friends it can be amazing.  Cross country runners also tend to have very good grades do to their work ethic and drive to do more than what is expected. Even if your child isn't great in school wouldn't it be good to have them surrounded by those kids who are? Great to hear some soccer players who have already tried it and are having success.  I hope they continue.


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