# Why some clubs seem to do better and win more?



## blam (Jan 22, 2019)

What are some reasons why some clubs seem to do better or win more?


For my personal experience, when I moved to another school district that had a weekly mile run, I noticed significant improvement.


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## Grace T. (Jan 22, 2019)

Much of it just comes down to player recruitment.  AYSO United has been able to perform well, for example, not necessarily because of the great coaching (most of their coaches only have a year or two club experience at best), but because they have a huge player base from which to recruit.  They can pick the best from the 4-8 regions which each AYSO United team covers.  Similarly, those fancy clubs with the names on the hoodies everyone recognizes are able to draw the best, and within their talent pool, cull the best into their A teams.  

The real question is how to some clubs get teams to overperform based on the available talent, and at what cost (for example, is the coach abusive or terrorizing players, how many practices, what risk of injury).  That's just a hard metric to judge because it requires you to evaluate each individual player, all of whom are starting at a different place, and who may also progress differently based on where they are on the growth curve.


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## timbuck (Jan 22, 2019)

Clubs that have multiple teams in an age group will often move players from a higher team to a lower team to appear that they are strong across the board. 
You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game. 
The club pass system was designed to let clubs move players around so that it is best for the players development.  Very few clubs use it that way.


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## mirage (Jan 22, 2019)

timbuck said:


> ........You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game.........


If all clubs with multiple teams on the same age group did as you've suggested, the only thing that happens is to elevate the competitiveness of those games.  Since both teams would have ringers it should balance out.

My observations over the years is that certain clubs have consistently put a winning teams and because of that, they attract better players.  It feeds itself.  The club has to really screw things up to lose such a trend.  

The reputation does really precede in the club soccer community and quickly.  Cannot discount better coaching and facilities either.  Not all coaching is the same and some clubs execute better training and programs than others.  The rub is there are coaches and clubs that ride on their past success and have let the core of what made them successful get a way from them.

In all reality, clubs are no different than any business.  There are businesses that excel and those that do not.  It should not be a surprise that there are those more successful than others on a consistent basis.


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## Paul Spacey (Jan 22, 2019)

So many reasons and things that go into it. 

Bottom line; if you recruit the best players, you will win most of your games. That's not always how it works at pro level (take Real Madrid's 'Galacticos' policy for example) but at youth level, generally the teams with the best individuals will win most of the games. You don't even need a team full of great individuals; often you just need a handful and I see this all the time when watching the more successful teams. They have solid players throughout but usually 3 or 4 really exceptional players who dictate the game and therefore heavily influence the result. The younger the team, the more easily an individual player can influence the game; once players reach High School age, a 'superstar' has less of an influence on the game than the amazing kid playing against 8 year olds who can't even get near him/her.

A team with solid players and a few very good individuals will usually win regardless of the coach (sometimes I'll hear coaches of these teams talking s**t on the sideline and some clearly don't have a great grasp of the game but that doesn't matter, they don't need to 'coach' too much). A team with average/decent players can over-perform if they are coached very well, even though their player pool may not that great. This is why coaching is so important during practice as 'coaching' to influence the outcome of any game is extremely limited/difficult once the game actually starts. Pep Guardiola talked eloquently about this during his time at Bayern Munich and played down his influence on players during the important decision making moments in games (a reporter asked what influence he had on a brilliant goal Bayern scored and he basically said "none, it was nothing to do with me.")

Let me take this chance to do a bit of self-promotion for my club. We have a player pool which is decent but nothing special (we get most of our players from AYSO but don't have the pick of the best ones like United often do) yet we've managed to have 3 solid 'results' seasons so far (although results are certainly not our focus). Win percentages of 64%, 58% and 60% for the past 3 years (which puts us among the top clubs in CSL for win percentages I believe). Yes, we started in bronze but now have half of our teams in silver elite and the other half in silver. More info via this link if you're interested in reading about why a focus on development will always bring about good results in the end. https://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/970401. 

Whenever one of our teams plays against a team who are clearly well coached and who pass and move very well, regardless of whether we win or lose (even more so actually when we lose) I always make a point of talking to the coach (and his/her players) and saying how enjoyable it was to watch them play. I love seeing well-coached teams and would love to find a league/tournament/regular scrimmage (as would many coaches I'm sure) where you could play against these types of teams every week. Coupled with excellent coaching, player development would go through the roof. I think this was the concept or idea behind DA; it just hasn't quite worked out as planned as far as I can gather.



mirage said:


> The reputation does really precede in the club soccer community and quickly.


This is spot on. Players, parents (and everyone else) will quickly find out if you are running a below-par program (or a very good one of course).



timbuck said:


> Clubs that have multiple teams in an age group will often move players from a higher team to a lower team to appear that they are strong across the board.
> You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game.
> The club pass system was designed to let clubs move players around so that it is best for the players development.  Very few clubs use it that way.


Again, spot on and everyone knows it happens. It's definitely not what the system was designed for but coaches and clubs will always find ways to 'game' any system.  

Teams who can access the best players (via reputation or whatever other means) will always be the ones who consistently win. That's one of the main reasons teams/clubs shouldn't use winning as a barometer for success IMO. That said, 'player development' is difficult to measure objectively and so results are usually the way most people determine which clubs are the 'best'.


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Jan 22, 2019)

There is club reputation like everyone has said but to me coaching is the main reason. And good clubs retain those coaches.

A few type of coaches.
1. coaches who recruit great and will do whatever it takes to get a good record or perform well in tournaments. That often may include "guest" players. They will also play kickball as long as they can win. Doesn't matter to them. Parents want kids on good teams so will go there.
2. Good coach that develops players and play the right way.  Parent sees the coaching and will want to go there. Often will result in good records and tournament wins.
3. Coaches who just collect a check. Two practices a week mostly scrimmaging each other. No scrimmages on the weekends with other teams. This is the team that struggles.


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## Keeper07 (Jan 23, 2019)

We’ve been in club soccer for about a year and half and at first we drank the koolaid but soon realized that most flight 1 teams are all about recruiting and less about developing. Most parents want to have their kid in flight 1 even if it means being benched 90% of the season while dishing out $2500 + in fees. With that said many parents continue to fall for the coach schpill of “pathway to ecnl... X amount of girls were chosen for odp... coach has special class license..” yada yada and so they move their kid to one of the flight 1 teams of the club. Ultimately it comes down to what you and your child want out of all of this. Does it make your child happy? Does the coach make your child feel like crap after a game? What do you want your child to take away from sports? 

My kid plays rec and club and one thing that they have in common, regardless of the flight level and socioeconomic status, is that parents equate wins with development and opportunities. It’s sad to hear parents complaining of the amount times the team has lost instead of seeing how much they’ve improved since the team started. Eh, it is what it is.


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## jpeter (Jan 23, 2019)

I dunno why do the New England patriots always seem make the super bowl?

Leadership and making the right decisions.  The right decisions in player personnel and coaching.

Do they have the best players every year? highest rated quarterback? Best Defense? Not that I noticed but they get it done when it counts.  Players and coaches that come together & through in crunch time.

Many people prefer the underdog and always pull for for them or would rather see "new" ones in the big game vs the same ole'

As a long life Rams fan I can relate & always pull for my team regardless, been  long time coming so going to enjoy the game and journey eitherway.

To me youth soccer is more about the journey than the the designation.

Having kids on both New England Pats and Rams time teams in different stages of their journey has been fun but I think my players have been happier & gotten more out of the "underdog" role vs the favorite.  For whatever reason maybe they worked harder, had more to gain than lose, helped out teammates more, or just the joy of accomplishing something that was not expected.  The most difficult route to the designation is/was more fun than the easier bypass (joining the existing top team(s), or whatever the case was.


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## coachsamy (Jan 23, 2019)

In club soccer is all about the marketing presentation of the club. That false perception given to the parents that they are part of an elite club of people that won't give a shit about them once they jump into the next soccer club. Anyhow moving from the cheap marketing that gravitates people to a soccer club.

Here are some of the reasons I find "do better or win more"
- Poach the top players/teams from smaller clubs within the same area. 
- Sandbag tournaments to pad their records and their gotsoccer ranking.
- Make a social media circus by bragging their sandbagger victories.
- Their DoC's are charismatic business people wearing tracksuits that understand business first and soccer second.
- Their pathway is better than others.


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## timbuck (Jan 23, 2019)

The social media postings of late are my favorite.


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## StrikerOC (Jan 23, 2019)

I mean the bottom line to me is that some clubs/coaches are better at recruiting kids to play for them than others. This is compounded when a team starts winning with these poached players. The former teammates from the poached team then want to go play for the "winning" team. Ask any coach who wins state cup and they will tell you that they are flooded with request tryouts after the tournament.

Everyone's kid has played against a powerhouse before. Lots of times kids don't even live in the city that their club represents, but the parents drive them a great distance to play for this club/coach. Why is that,? Well, lets be honest... There are some clubs/coaches that do a much better job explaining the vision and goals to the parents. Then the parents get to sit back and see if that plan and vision unfold. If it does then typically the parents become the best recruiters for the club because they start reaching out to the other talented kids parents and put them in contact with the coach.


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## timbuck (Jan 24, 2019)

Some clubs are relentless recruiters. Their coaches probably spend more time working on their player database than they do on planning a practice session for each week.
They approach players before and after (sometimes during) games.  They know which older players have younger siblings coming up. 
They have their ear to the ground on coaches that are moving and hit up players from those teams to see who is interested.
And then you have clubs that bring on new coaches that bring entire teams over.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Some clubs are relentless recruiters. Their coaches probably spend more time working on their player database than they do on planning a practice session for each week.
> They approach players before and after (sometimes during) games.  They know which older players have younger siblings coming up.
> They have their ear to the ground on coaches that are moving and hit up players from those teams to see who is interested.
> And then you have clubs that bring on new coaches that bring entire teams over.


Prior to the age group change coaches would track players they were interested in. Then find  out from their registrar how old they were. Essentially trying to recruit older players in the mixed age groups. I only know this because a coach from another club shared this with me quite a few years ago. Technically registrars were not suppose to do this but did.


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## Paul Spacey (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Prior to the age group change coaches would track players they were interested in. Then find would out from their registrar how old they were. Essentially trying to recruit older players in the mixed age groups. I only know this because a coach from another club shared this with me quite a few years ago. Technically registrars were not suppose to do this but did.


Not a surprise. Some coaches still do this and I suppose I understand why. The older kids are often bigger and faster and because of the relative age effect, they get more opportunities at younger ages and so do actually tend to be the stronger players, generally speaking. That said, I can honestly say I’ve never once looked at a kids birth month when considering them for a team. 

I’ve heard of coaches only looking for Jan/Feb birth players; unfortunately they miss the gems born in December who were usually the smallest on their teams and so were forced to develop their technical skills and decision making to compete with bigger kids. Come High School (and after puberty), some of those December gems suddenly look like world beaters (we’ve got one on our B04 team and he’s still small but plays like Iniesta) while the rapid sprinting January kid sees his/her speed influence the game much less


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## jpeter (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Prior to the age group change coaches would track players they were interested in. Then find would out from their registrar how old they were. Essentially trying to recruit older players in the mixed age groups. I only know this because a coach from another club shared this with me quite a few years ago. Technically registrars were not suppose to do this but did.


Ah I see always wondered how these clubs that we didn't even have any contact with somehow got a ahold of our contact info.   

The parking lot apporach after the game was another one, we found out about club soccer about 10yrs ago or so after one of my son's indoor game when he was like 6yrs old, come out to our free training sessions was part of the pitch.    Recruiters back then almost seem more common then real scouts are today depending where/who the teams are playing.


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## Messi>CR7 (Jan 24, 2019)

StrikerOC said:


> I mean the bottom line to me is that some clubs/coaches are better at recruiting kids to play for them than others. This is compounded when a team starts winning with these poached players. The former teammates from the poached team then want to go play for the "winning" team. Ask any coach who wins state cup and they will tell you that they are flooded with request tryouts after the tournament.
> 
> Everyone's kid has played against a powerhouse before. Lots of times kids don't even live in the city that their club represents, but the parents drive them a great distance to play for this club/coach. Why is that,? Well, lets be honest... There are some clubs/coaches that do a much better job explaining the vision and goals to the parents. Then the parents get to sit back and see if that plan and vision unfold. If it does then typically the parents become the best recruiters for the club because they start reaching out to the other talented kids parents and put them in contact with the coach.


What this means is these teams/coaches will absolutely cut players a year later to make room for the new shining toys (i.e. version 2.0 of your kid).  If the parents know this is what they're signing up for, by all means go for it.

I always admire those coaches that take a team from flight 2 to flight 1 over a few years without taking the shortcut of systematically replacing the bottom players.


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## StrikerOC (Jan 24, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> What this means is these teams/coaches will absolutely cut players a year later to make room for the new shining toys (i.e. version 2.0 of your kid).  If the parents know this is what they're signing up for, by all means go for it.
> 
> I always admire those coaches that take a team from flight 2 to flight 1 over a few years without taking the shortcut of systematically replacing the bottom players.


I used to be of the same mindset as you in terms of building a team over poaching talent. What changed is that I realized it's in the best interest for the top talent to all play with each other. You see it a lot with middle of the road flight 1 teams, they have 1-2 kids with a lot of talent but can never beat the really good teams because their teammates can't receive a ball properly or should really be on flight 2. 

If a coach can do it organically than more power to him/team but I am a proponent of top talent playing together, no matter how it happens


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## Grace T. (Jan 24, 2019)

StrikerOC said:


> I used to be of the same mindset as you in terms of building a team over poaching talent. What changed is that I realized it's in the best interest for the top talent to all play with each other. You see it a lot with middle of the road flight 1 teams, they have 1-2 kids with a lot of talent but can never beat the really good teams because their teammates can't receive a ball properly or should really be on flight 2.


That's really the problem with the flight system from a developmental point of view.  With the exception of the best of the top flight 1 teams, you have kids playing at levels which they aren't best suited for (for either themselves of their teammates).  So you have flight 2 players on flight 1 teams that the coaches have taken to fill up the rosters and which will sacrificed in a heart beat to get that upgrade.  You have flight 2 players playing on flight 3 teams who have to jump ship to get the promotion because the team isn't going to make it on their own.  The flight system encourages all the poaching/club hopping that parents and coaches hate so much.

I get we need the flights because otherwise you'd be having 1s stomping on 3s 20-0 or more which is disheartening for the 3s and boring/unhelpful for the 1s.  But the flaw in the system is that we promote teams, not players.  A better developmental system would have each player evaluated and placed on a level that's appropriate for them.  It's what United is trying to do, but (at least so far) hasn't had a lot of luck.  Some of the larger clubs do that too (though the players and the clubs needs may be in conflict there).  It's a difficult thing to put in place so long as we have an open pay or play model.


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## StrikerOC (Jan 24, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> That's really the problem with the flight system from a developmental point of view.  With the exception of the best of the top flight 1 teams, you have kids playing at levels which they aren't best suited for (for either themselves of their teammates).  So you have flight 2 players on flight 1 teams that the coaches have taken to fill up the rosters and which will sacrificed in a heart beat to get that upgrade.  You have flight 2 players playing on flight 3 teams who have to jump ship to get the promotion because the team isn't going to make it on their own.  The flight system encourages all the poaching/club hopping that parents and coaches hate so much.
> 
> I get we need the flights because otherwise you'd be having 1s stomping on 3s 20-0 or more which is disheartening for the 3s and boring/unhelpful for the 1s.  But the flaw in the system is that we promote teams, not players.  A better developmental system would have each player evaluated and placed on a level that's appropriate for them.  It's what United is trying to do, but (at least so far) hasn't had a lot of luck.  Some of the larger clubs do that too (though the players and the clubs needs may be in conflict there).  It's a difficult thing to put in place so long as we have an open pay or play model.


Agree with all this. I think the best thing a top tier flight 1 team can do is play up in age. The kids will be bigger,faster, stronger and more technical.


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## timbuck (Jan 24, 2019)

Everyone thinks their kid belongs 1 flight above where they really do.


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## TangoCity (Jan 24, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> So many reasons and things that go into it.
> 
> Bottom line; if you recruit the best players, you will win most of your games. That's not always how it works at pro level (take Real Madrid's 'Galacticos' policy for example) but at youth level, generally the teams with the best individuals will win most of the games. You don't even need a team full of great individuals; often you just need a handful and I see this all the time when watching the more successful teams. They have solid players throughout but usually 3 or 4 really exceptional players who dictate the game and therefore heavily influence the result. The younger the team, the more easily an individual player can influence the game; once players reach High School age, a 'superstar' has less of an influence on the game than the amazing kid playing against 8 year olds who can't even get near him/her.
> 
> ...


Have played against one of your teams.  They are well coached and play the right way, possession and ball movement over kick ball/direct.  I'm sure your teams suffer some losses because of that but in the long run and at older ages those losses will turn into wins as the direct play doesn't work as well.

In general though, I think the teams that have DA and to a lesser extent ECNL have the advantage because many parents and players are chasing the UNWNT and full ride college scholarship dream (nothing wrong with that to a degree) and these clubs at the DA/ECNL age level start to get seen by college coaches to a much higher degree than a non DA/ECNL club/team.  A huge recruiting advantage for them.


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## outside! (Jan 24, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Some clubs are relentless recruiters. Their coaches probably spend more time working on their player database than they do on planning a practice session for each week.
> They approach players before and after (sometimes during) games.  They know which older players have younger siblings coming up.
> They have their ear to the ground on coaches that are moving and hit up players from those teams to see who is interested.
> And then you have clubs that bring on new coaches that bring entire teams over.


Then you have the coaches that are relentless recruiters AND good coaches like Gandalf. Still pretty classless to call players from the opposing team right after a close game however.


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## 46n2 (Jan 24, 2019)

The competitive teams/coaches IMO make moves both good and bad.......this is still club ball to some of us.  I like seeing the earners get their spot and the right to play on a good team.  Theres absolutely nothing wrong with being recruited to play on a good team, I can tell you , we are not recruiting the parents , thats for sure......and when a kid gets dropped it shows that club means business, and as a paying customer everyone should appreciate that.


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## StrikerOC (Jan 24, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Everyone thinks their kid belongs 1 flight above where they really do.


True. That's why the smart parents let the coaches/clubs make that decision, there is no benefit for a team to keep playing their same age or flight if they are dominating the league with 9-0 scores. A handful of teams do it and it works out for the club, parents but most importantly the kids.


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## Paul Spacey (Jan 24, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> Have played against one of your teams.  They are well coached and play the right way, possession and ball movement over kick ball/direct.  I'm sure your teams suffer some losses because of that but in the long run and at older ages those losses will turn into wins as the direct play doesn't work as well.
> 
> In general though, I think the teams that have DA and to a lesser extent ECNL have the advantage because many parents and players are chasing the UNWNT and full ride college scholarship dream (nothing wrong with that to a degree) and these clubs at the DA/ECNL age level start to get seen by college coaches to a much higher degree than a non DA/ECNL club/team.  A huge recruiting advantage for them.


Thanks, I appreciate that. It’s something opponents regularly notice and that’s a pat on the back for the kids more than anything.

You’re spot on. Clubs with DA and ECNL will always have the pick of the top players; that’s understandable.


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Jan 25, 2019)

How about a combine/US Soccer test type of system to get to Flight 1?
You have to do x amount of technical drills in x amount of time to qualify to even move up. Or something like that. Obviously you will still have to be able to play the game but the big fast kid will even have to learn and will eliminate some of the F2/3 kids that think they can play F1.

Then whether you make it or not will be up to the player/club.

This way you'll see more kids practicing technique and coaches teaching it in practice.


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## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2019)

OCsoccerdad7777 said:


> This way you'll see more kids practicing technique and coaches teaching it in practice.


US Soccer right now is the opposite.  They don't think coaches should be teaching technique in practice, and are discouraging it in the licensing training.  Instead they believe kids should pick up skills by actually playing the game in realistic conditions (e.g. scrimmages).  It would require a change in the thinking of US Soccer.

Extras and United do this to some extent (as does the UK), but at least in the case of AYSO those tests aren't always a good indication of how a player will perform in the game and a lot of coaches tend to disregard them anyways for other concerns (positional, speed, politics, etc.)


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## Eagle33 (Jan 25, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> US Soccer right now is the opposite.  They don't think coaches should be teaching technique in practice, and are discouraging it in the licensing training.  Instead they believe kids should pick up skills by actually playing the game in realistic conditions (e.g. scrimmages).  It would require a change in the thinking of US Soccer.


Where you getting this information from? Did you attended US Soccer coaching clinic and that's what they told you there?
I know I did recently, and nothing remotely close to what you are saying is happening.


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## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2019)

Eagle33 said:


> Where you getting this information from? Did you attended US Soccer coaching clinic and that's what they told you there?
> I know I did recently, and nothing remotely close to what you are saying is happening.


I've posted my anecdote before.  Went out for my E License.  Put together level 2 exercise on playing from the wings.  I put together a crossing exercise for 9 year olds with a keeper, a working winger who crosses, a receiver and a defender.  I was told I used too few people and it wasn't realistic enough.  Instead I should set up a more scrimmage like situation which was game realistic.  I asked what if the 9 year old doesn't know how to properly cross the ball.  I was told he needs to learn that in a game situation.  I said well not all 9 year olds pick things up through osmosis.  He said that's what private trainers are for.  That was consistent with the information I got and with the 9 new aside course I took, not to mention some stuff with the US Youth Soccer Council.

I admit it was 2 years ago though.  If they've backed away from that, great.


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## blam (Jan 25, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> Put together level 2 exercise on playing from the wings. I put together a crossing exercise for 9 year olds with a keeper, a working winger who crosses, a receiver and a defender.


From what I have read, crossing is not an effective strategy.
https://soccerment.com/2017/11/26/crossing-effective-strategy/


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## toucan (Jan 25, 2019)

Eagle33 said:


> Where you getting this information from? Did you attended US Soccer coaching clinic and that's what they told you there?
> I know I did recently, and nothing remotely close to what you are saying is happening.


GraceT is exactly right.  For fun and amusement, I recently took all 4 of the new "Grassroots" courses, which have superceded the E License.  They all promote a "play, teach, play" system.  

The coach picks a topic based on one of the four phases of the game (attack, defend, transition to attack, transition to defense).  Then picks four or five words.  Then you just have the kids play.  While they are playing, you introduce the concepts to be taught by using the words, along with "guided questions" such as, "can you pass the ball now?," or "can you dribble to space?"  

Then you explain the concepts you were trying to get them to learn on their own, and do a drill of some sort for about 10 minutes.

Then you go back to playing exactly like before.  Then, Voila - your practice is over.

About 20% of a practice is actual training.  The rest is letting kids play.  The idea is that they will learn the game better by playing.

As an occasional practice plan, it's got its good points.  But if that is what you do all the time - or even most of the time - then you can be certain that the kids you train will never get very good.  Nobody at USSF will admit it, but rote technical skills have to be taught and practiced endlessly.  Few kids pick up those skills without somebody showing them how to do it and making sure they practice.


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Jan 25, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> US Soccer right now is the opposite.  They don't think coaches should be teaching technique in practice, and are discouraging it in the licensing training.  Instead they believe kids should pick up skills by actually playing the game in realistic conditions (e.g. scrimmages).  It would require a change in the thinking of US Soccer.
> 
> Extras and United do this to some extent (as does the UK), but at least in the case of AYSO those tests aren't always a good indication of how a player will perform in the game and a lot of coaches tend to disregard them anyways for other concerns (positional, speed, politics, etc.)


Not saying the kids should not be taught how to play. But for F1 at a minimum, need to have good ball skills to qualify.  After that, IQ, game play, hustle, whatever the coach is looking for can determine if they actually make the team.
This way, just having size and/or speed doesn't automatically make you a F1 player. 
Sad to hear of your experience.

"E" license to me would be more for teaching maybe F3 type players (not to say if you have an E license,  you can't coach or not qualified to coach higher ups. Just on E definition). More emphasis on ball control, technical skills. Of course teaching the game too but more emphasis on the latter.


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## timbuck (Jan 25, 2019)

OCsoccerdad7777 said:


> Not saying the kids should not be taught how to play. But for F1 at a minimum, need to have good ball skills to qualify.  After that, IQ, game play, hustle, whatever the coach is looking for can determine if they actually make the team.
> This way, just having size and/or speed doesn't automatically make you a F1 player.
> Sad to hear of your experience.
> 
> "E" license to me would be more for teaching maybe F3 type players (not to say if you have an E license,  you can't coach or not qualified to coach higher ups. Just on E definition). More emphasis on ball control, technical skills. Of course teaching the game too but more emphasis on the latter.


I've heard plenty of coaches say "Give me a big kid or a fast kid and I can teach them how to play soccer."  And they'll overlook the smaller kid with the silky touch and the pinpoint passing to try and get Mongo on the team.


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Jan 25, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I've heard plenty of coaches say "Give me a big kid or a fast kid and I can teach them how to play soccer."  And they'll overlook the smaller kid with the silky touch and the pinpoint passing to try and get Mongo on the team.


Totally true. But that's where if there was some Cal South rule or requirement to get a skills test (recorded) before being even considered F1, then Mongo will be denied and coach can't do anything about it. 

Then it is up to the F2 or F3 coach, whomever he goes to to develop the technical skills before being moved up. Not to mention that if Mongo really wants it, then will work on it him/her self at home. Currently Mongo just sits at home playing Fortnite because he/she scores 2 goals a game and is the golden child.

Results will be that everyone in F1 will be way more skilled from defenders to strikers and kids that come up from F2 will have some basic skills to start with. 
I know it's a pipe dream lol.


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## Lambchop (Jan 26, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I've heard plenty of coaches say "Give me a big kid or a fast kid and I can teach them how to play soccer."  And they'll overlook the smaller kid with the silky touch and the pinpoint passing to try and get Mongo on the team.


You can't teach "fast".  Skills are acquired over many years of training and practice where ever that may be. Many of those big kids will frequently switch sports in high school.  Too many people stress over their ulittles.


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## espola (Jan 26, 2019)

Lambchop said:


> You can't teach "fast".  Skills are acquired over many years of training and practice where ever that may be. Many of those big kids will frequently switch sports in high school.  Too many people stress over their ulittles.


You can teach "faster", but it still might not qualify as "fast".


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## Thunderstruck (Jan 26, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Clubs that have multiple teams in an age group will often move players from a higher team lower team to appear that they are strong across the board.
> You’ll see a b or c team with 12 players on the official roster. But 15 or 16 will show up for each game.
> The club pass system was designed to let clubs move players around so that it is best for the players development.  Very few clubs use it that way.


We play for a club that has multiple teams in age groups and I can tell you they definitely don’t move kids from the higher team to the lower team to be strong across the board (although this would help my team at State Cup)!


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## El Clasico (Jan 27, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I've heard plenty of coaches say "Give me a big kid or a fast kid and I can teach them how to play soccer."  And they'll overlook the smaller kid with the silky touch and the pinpoint passing to try and get Mongo on the team.


Every single time!! It's embarrassing really..


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Jan 29, 2019)

Ultimately, there are far too many flight 1 teams. If that is the top level, it should be elite and difficult to get into. Separate leagues by each county, then have 10 teams in flight 1, 20 teams in flight 2 (two brackets), 30 teams in flight 3 (three brackets) etc. If there are 10 teams in flight 1, that's 100 spots for a 7v7 team. In the whole of Orange County, that would be very difficult to get into (which it should be). Far too many kids playing flight 1 who shouldn't be. For the older age groups, with all the add on's above flight 1, its not prestigious anymore anyway.


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## Paul Spacey (Jan 29, 2019)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Ultimately, there are far too many flight 1 teams. If that is the top level, it should be elite and difficult to get into. Separate leagues by each county, then have 10 teams in flight 1, 20 teams in flight 2 (two brackets), 30 teams in flight 3 (three brackets) etc. If there are 10 teams in flight 1, that's 100 spots for a 7v7 team. In the whole of Orange County, that would be very difficult to get into (which it should be). Far too many kids playing flight 1 who shouldn't be. For the older age groups, with all the add on's above flight 1, its not prestigious anymore anyway.


My understanding from talking to people who have been involved in club soccer for many years here is that club soccer used to be like this. To make it onto a ‘top’ team (or even to make it onto any club team), you had to be a very good player, otherwise you just played AYSO. Not sure how accurate that is/was?


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## espola (Jan 29, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> My understanding from talking to people who have been involved in club soccer for many years here is that club soccer used to be like this. To make it onto a ‘top’ team (or even to make it onto any club team), you had to be a very good player, otherwise you just played AYSO. Not sure how accurate that is/was?


In San Diego in the 70's, it was local rec teams (not even at the AYSO level of organization) with a County Cup tournament at the end of the season, or try out for travel teams --  Nomads for Boys and Surf for girls (San Dieguito Surf, to be exact).


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Jan 29, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> My understanding from talking to people who have been involved in club soccer for many years here is that club soccer used to be like this. To make it onto a ‘top’ team (or even to make it onto any club team), you had to be a very good player, otherwise you just played AYSO. Not sure how accurate that is/was?


I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.


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## Grace T. (Jan 29, 2019)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.


The weakness with the Extras program is the same one with the core AYSO-- that it relies on volunteer coaches so you don't really get a chance to shop for the coach (you take what you have in your AYSO area) and that coach is likely to be a parent volunteer (who may or may not know what they are doing, though AYSO's training materials IMHO are better than US Soccer's and AYSO tends to assign the better coaches to Extras, though as a ref I have run into a couple that made me wonder).  The United program, for instance, is moving away from volunteer coaches because they feel paying their coaches will make them more accountable (a volunteer can take the position fire me if you don't like what I'm doing).  As a ref I can also tell you the "better environment" is dependent also on what attitude the AYSO region imposes on both coaches and the parents (I've had more issues reffing Extras games, than either core or club games...some regions are really good and have zero tolerance, others not so much). 

As to performance, Extras has an advantage in that it can pick from among the best of its core program from Extras (though that advantage is being diminished somewhat by the competition from United).  It's not true that they are better than all flight 3 teams (my son's experience in the first and second year were that the Extras teams were relatively easy competition), and indeed United is hoping to structure it as a lower level to their United bronze team with each United region offering an experience in at least gold (or silver elite)/silver/bronze.  There is a disadvantage in that Extras teams have a coach/team commit only for 1 year and then get completely reshuffled with the best players looking for promotion to United (though that's also the case now for many flight 3 teams)  And finally, there is a weakness in the Extras tryout process....the exams in many regions tend to favor fast moving strikers (as opposed to defenders or specialists like CBs or GKs) and allowances get made for politics (for intermediate refs/board members/coordinators/the coach and assistant coach).


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## Grace T. (Jan 29, 2019)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> I haven't been in soccer long enough to know, however I do know a few people who failed to get into the AYSO Extra team for their regions, and then went to a flight 3 club team. We have been through 7v7 and now into 9v9 and I have yet to see a flight 3 team who I think to myself "These guys would easily win AYSO Extra in South OC". I just hope people aren't paying the regular sums that get banded around to play on flight 3 club, when AYSO Extra is so much cheaper and a better environment for their kids to play the game.


p.s.  here's the exception that proves the rule BTW. Last year when my son was in United their first tournament also involved an Extras team, the core of which this last season became a United team from another region.  The Extras team beat them 8-0.  When this Extras team became a United team, they tore up several tournaments, being only stopped by the TFA pre-academy team.  These kids were superfast and could shoot high and into the corner from outside the 18.  But it was some of the ugliest soccer I'd ever seen.  Keeper would punt to the mid, where one of the team's core players would just try and out run everyone and shoot from a distance...very little by way of passing, very few skill moves so when they ran into a team that actually perfected the passing game and could run with them, they totally melted.


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## espola (Jan 29, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> p.s.  here's the exception that proves the rule BTW. Last year when my son was in United their first tournament also involved an Extras team, the core of which this last season became a United team from another region.  The Extras team beat them 8-0.  When this Extras team became a United team, they tore up several tournaments, being only stopped by the TFA pre-academy team.  These kids were superfast and could shoot high and into the corner from outside the 18.  But it was some of the ugliest soccer I'd ever seen.  Keeper would punt to the mid, where one of the team's core players would just try and out run everyone and shoot from a distance...very little by way of passing, very few skill moves so when they ran into a team that actually perfected the passing game and could run with them, they totally melted.


Sounds like a team that played according to the rules.


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## HE>I (Jan 29, 2019)

They recruit the top players and have built a brand for their club. All the top players go to these clubs willingly because they are the benchmark. A lot of these clubs have well known coaches that are known for their winning ways. Most of these clubs provide a higher chance to get recognized because of their affiliations with the Academies, ECNL, Colleges, and so on. It’s much easier to win when you have all the best talent and biggest player pool to choose from.


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## Grace T. (Jan 30, 2019)

espola said:


> Sounds like a team that played according to the rules.


You can have your soccer competitive, developmental/professional or accessible to all.  Pick 2.  Extras is an exam of what it is like when you choose competitive and accessible to all.  I see nothing wrong with that.  It's a choice.  But it is a choice that goes against all the US men's soccer handwringing.


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## espola (Jan 30, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> You can have your soccer competitive, developmental/professional or accessible to all.  Pick 2.  Extras is an exam of what it is like when you choose competitive and accessible to all.  I see nothing wrong with that.  It's a choice.  But it is a choice that goes against all the US men's soccer handwringing.


The great majority of players will never compete at any higher level than where they are right now.  Handwringing about how we are not following the correct development path is meaningless to and for them.  

Besides which, playing against a team that plays direct longball is a good exercise for defensive skills.


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## blam (Jan 30, 2019)

Are long crosses just kick ball from the sidelines? Seem like it just becomes a 50 50 ball once it enters the penalty box.


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## timbuck (Jan 30, 2019)

I’ll take a 50/50 ball 8 yards from the goal I’m trying to score in.  Cross it 6 times and my team gets on the end of 3 of them?  

There are various types of crosses.  High in the air. Low. On the ground. Cut back.  

Teams should be working on these various options and use cues to play the right one.  And off the ball players need to see cues for their positioning.  Far post. Near post. On the keeper. Penalty spot. Checking runs.


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## SocalPapa (Feb 6, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> AYSO United has been able to perform well, for example, not necessarily because of the great coaching (most of their coaches only have a year or two club experience at best), but because they have a huge player base from which to recruit.  They can pick the best from the 4-8 regions which each AYSO United team covers.


That's not the case for the good G02/G01 AYSO United (aka Pacific Soccer Club) teams I've seen over the last few years.  I believe most or all were AYSO Extra teams that converted to club.  So the players were from a single region.  They would add/replace some girls from time to time, but the new girls were more likely to come from another club than from an AYSO team.  To my knowledge AYSO does not have any formal feeder system where players from a specific group of regions are supposed to play for any particular AYSO United team.  (Perhaps that system exists for youngers, but I hadn't heard of it.)  

Where AYSO does have an advantage, I think, is in its large coaching base.  They have a huge number of coaches and every once in a while they strike gold either with an inexperienced coach with unusual talent or with a highly-trained, experienced coach who chooses to coach their kid in the AYSO club soccer system. See, for example:  https://www.aysounitedsouthoc.org/Default.aspx?tabid=941852.  They can then hitch on to that coach for as long as that person wants to coach with them (typically until the coach's kid ages out).


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## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2019)

SocalPapa said:


> .  To my knowledge AYSO does not have any formal feeder system where players from a specific group of regions are supposed to play for any particular AYSO United team.  (Perhaps that system exists for youngers, but I hadn't heard of it.)
> 
> .


The feeder system is more of an aspiration at this point than a practical reality.  Part of the issue is that United is organized as separate regions from the local Core/Extras regions.  The other issue is tryouts and how they manage them going forward. Finally, that AYSO chapters (including United regions) operate largely as independent agencies with some but not complete oversight from national headquarters.


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## MakeAPlay (Feb 6, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Everyone thinks their kid belongs 1 flight above where they really do.


I disagree.  You must run in some interesting circles.  When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team.  Most have no idea what the path to the YNT or college even looks like.  Most don't even know what a decent soccer game looks like.  The few that obsess over it are typically sold it by a coach or another parent.


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## MakeAPlay (Feb 6, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> Thanks, I appreciate that. It’s something opponents regularly notice and that’s a pat on the back for the kids more than anything.
> 
> You’re spot on. Clubs with DA and ECNL will always have the pick of the top players; that’s understandable.


I think that it is the parents of the top players that have their pick of the clubs not vice versa...


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## timbuck (Feb 6, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I disagree.  You must run in some interesting circles.  When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team.  Most have no idea what the path to the YNT or college even looks like.  Most don't even know what a decent soccer game looks like.  The few that obsess over it are typically sold it by a coach or another parent.


You’ve got no idea!!!  Some day I’ll write a book about it all.


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## jrcaesar (Feb 7, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> When my player was in club, most people cared about the name on the jersey regardless of whether it was the "A" team or the "D" team.


This continues to be partially true, I think, but it's because the D team parents think that their child will be promoted to the A team after a couple seasons (@timbuck  makes this point)


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