# quality of HS soccer compared to club



## lancer (Jan 10, 2020)

is HS soccer disappointing to anyone else?  I feel most the girls have never played organized soccer.  All I see is kick and chase, selfish shitty soccer.  Players going after body instead of ball, and the refs are worse than SCDSL on a bad day.  We had a ref that needed a walker on wednesday and two that allowed assaults today.


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## Soccer43 (Jan 10, 2020)

That’s hilarious, really? A walker or are you just exaggerating?


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## Soccer43 (Jan 10, 2020)

HS soccer varies by region, school etc - some is terrible and some is competitive good soccer and fun


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## Soccer22 (Jan 10, 2020)

I have actually felt the opposite in our first year of high school soccer. It surprised me based on what I had heard. It may have a lot to do with is said above... some good and some bad. I will say this last year my daughter’s club team turned much more to kick and chase so anything less than that has been refreshing


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## Soccerhelper (Jan 10, 2020)

lancer said:


> is HS soccer disappointing to anyone else?  I feel most the girls have never played organized soccer.  All I see is kick and chase, selfish shitty soccer.  Players going after body instead of ball, and the refs are worse than SCDSL on a bad day.  We had a ref that needed a walker on wednesday and two that allowed assaults today.


Refs need to be paid way more money for any soccer game with parents attending.  We had one guy at our non-league game and he was not up to speed or the task at hand.  I see amazing soccer in the Sunset League. What league and level hs ball for your dd?


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## timbuck (Jan 10, 2020)

Here’s the ref problem-  the majority of girls games are played on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. 3 games per school.  2 of them being played at 4:30 pm. 
So in an area like South OC where you have dozens of schools within 20 miles of each other, the ref pools gets pretty thin. And for a ref that works a 9-5 full time job- they aren’t likely to make the 4:30 start time.
And then you add in 4 tournaments this coming weekend and high school soccer-  what are refs going to choose to work?


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## Soccerhelper (Jan 11, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Here’s the ref problem-  the majority of girls games are played on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. 3 games per school.  2 of them being played at 4:30 pm.
> So in an area like South OC where you have dozens of schools within 20 miles of each other, the ref pools gets pretty thin. And for a ref that works a 9-5 full time job- they aren’t likely to make the 4:30 start time.
> And then you add in 4 tournaments this coming weekend and high school soccer-  what are refs going to choose to work?


I heard the pay is not good at all.  I don;t know how much refs get paid these days but the abuse they go through is insane. With all the price increases in club I think it's now time to pay good refs good pay.  Bad pay=bad refs or just unhappy refs who don't feel appreciated imho.  I say refs should strike for more pay.  HS has been good so far and not as bad as club. Thanks to all the refs who work hard for us


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## timbuck (Jan 11, 2020)

The weird thing about the 2-man ref system is that the game can be called totally different on one half of the field than the other. 
1st half- we were defending the south goal. Ref called things super tight. Lots of fouls called that the ref on the other side wasn’t calling when we were defending the other half. 
it’s is what it is. I’m just happy to have referees and good fields.


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## lancer (Jan 11, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> That’s hilarious, really? A walker or are you just exaggerating?


the "assaults" was hyperbole but the walker was spot on.  he stood on the 18 the whole time.


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## timbuck (Jan 11, 2020)

He probably stood on the 18 because that’s where the last defender was.  Really hard to watch for offside, fouls and balls in to touch if you are running all over the field.


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## Giesbock (Jan 11, 2020)

Our daughter’s game yesterday ended up played on really rough side field due to construction...  Dur to that, the coach intentionally had them play a more direct game than usual.


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## twoclubpapa (Jan 11, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I heard the pay is not good at all.  I don;t know how much refs get paid these days but the abuse they go through is insane. With all the price increases in club I think it's now time to pay good refs good pay.  Bad pay=bad refs or just unhappy refs who don't feel appreciated imho.  I say refs should strike for more pay.  HS has been good so far and not as bad as club. Thanks to all the refs who work hard for us


CIF Southern Section referee pay scale for 2019-20 season:
Varsity: 3 officials is $78 for R and $66 for each AR 
Varsity: 2 officials is $66 each
Non-varsity:  3 officials is $75 for R and $64 for each AR (I've never seen this in 19 years of HS officiating)
Non-varsity:  2 officials is $59 each
Non-varsity:  1 official is $68 (I've done a handful of 1-ref Frosh/Soph games but our assigner works really hard to try to avoid this.)


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## LMULions (Jan 13, 2020)

The level of play far exceeds anything I expected, after hearing what Club coaches told everyone to expect. Most of the kids on my DD team have played Club-soccer, however, and both coaches, despite not being "Club" coaches, teach the kids the right way to play. Who would have thought that having or not-having a technical license would not necessarily prevent someone from being a good coach??  

We have a lot of freshmen so there have been 1-2 games where we were challenged athletically, but most of the teams we have played again (many using Club coaches) have also avoided kickball. I hear it's out there, we're in a good conference and been lucky enough to avoid it. The problem we're running into is that we have a core group of 10-12 girls who get it - we have very little bench strength and have been in trouble when we have run into injuries/the flu. 

I was told to expect 2-ref system, but for the most part our games have all included 3 refs. I'm hoping that if we do see a lot of 2-ref that they're willing to cover a lot of ground, and communicate, so that it's evenly called half-to-half. In general both the reffing and quality of play better than expected - and I'm sure I just jinxed that by typing it out here.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jan 14, 2020)

Where I grew up, there wasn't any club close by... and most cars didn't have air conditioning, either, but when clubs aren't an option, or DA isn't an option, I'd imagine the competition in HS is pretty good.  The best players don't have an alternative.  Where we are now, the level is not nearly as good because of both reasons.  Most teams I've seen have 2 or 3 players that are obviously (good) club players and others are more (w)rec(k)... or what we used to call 'select' players.  The age difference in body structure also impacts things.  Some are still young and quick... others are young women.  What's even worse is the coaching.  I commend them for doing it... but most aren't that savvy.  I appreciate my kid's coach because he hasn't tried to undo anything the DD's club coach instilled.  He's just like "do what you know how to do" and goes from there.  I'm grateful for that.


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## Eagle33 (Jan 14, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Here’s the ref problem-  the majority of girls games are played on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. 3 games per school.  2 of them being played at 4:30 pm.
> So in an area like South OC where you have dozens of schools within 20 miles of each other, the ref pools gets pretty thin. And for a ref that works a 9-5 full time job- they aren’t likely to make the 4:30 start time.
> And then you add in 4 tournaments this coming weekend and high school soccer-  what are refs going to choose to work?


South County is only very small area of HS soccer. Most other games at schools in Orange county start at 3:15 pm. You are lucky with games starting at 4:30 pm


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## Eagle33 (Jan 14, 2020)

lancer said:


> is HS soccer disappointing to anyone else?  I feel most the girls have never played organized soccer.  All I see is kick and chase, selfish shitty soccer.  Players going after body instead of ball, and the refs are worse than SCDSL on a bad day.  We had a ref that needed a walker on wednesday and two that allowed assaults today.


HS soccer programs just like club programs, depend on a leadership and coaching.


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## timbuck (Jan 14, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> South County is only very small area of HS soccer. Most other games at schools in Orange county start at 3:15 pm. You are lucky with games starting at 4:30 pm


That stinks. The 4:30 or 6pm games are hard enough to get to for a working parent.  I feel that if High Schools did an occasional "Friday Night Lights" with boys and girls double headers, that you'd get a big turn out to watch the games.  You'd get the students, the parents and probably lots of younger players from local clubs out there to watch.


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## outside! (Jan 14, 2020)

timbuck said:


> That stinks. The 4:30 or 6pm games are hard enough to get to for a working parent.  I feel that if High Schools did an occasional "Friday Night Lights" with boys and girls double headers, that you'd get a big turn out to watch the games.  You'd get the students, the parents and probably lots of younger players from local clubs out there to watch.


That's crazy talk! Next thing you know you will want the soccer athletes to have the chance to have a homecoming dance after the game and have the band and the cheerleaders show up. After that you will want the soccer athletes to have the ability to go to college ID camps without fear of reprisal just like the football players do.


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## Kante (Jan 14, 2020)

question for folks. went to a big rivalry high school match a couple of weeks back. both schools are good and one is ranked by tds.

both schools did nothing but long goal kicks with no attempt to play out of the back, and long throw-ins down the side w/ no attempt to play short or into the middle, despite having opportunities to do so.

Am familiar w/ a number of players on each team, and know that they know how to play.

in folks' experience, is this typical of high school soccer these days?


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## timbuck (Jan 14, 2020)

Playing out of the back requires a bit of rehearsal and comfort with your teammates. HS soccer is pretty short term, so not a lot of teams will work on it. 
And most hs teams will put in a fast kid over a technical kid. And/or they put the tall kids on the backline to win 50/50 balls and smack it forward. 
The 1st pass when trying to build from the back is the easy one.  The 2nd, 3rd and 4th are where it takes practice and patience.


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## lancer (Jan 14, 2020)

Kante said:


> question for folks. went to a big rivalry high school match a couple of weeks back. both schools are good and one is ranked by tds.
> 
> both schools did nothing but long goal kicks with no attempt to play out of the back, and long throw-ins down the side w/ no attempt to play short or into the middle, despite having opportunities to do so.
> 
> ...


thanks that is what my OP was about.


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## lancer (Jan 14, 2020)

i do not have a horse in this race, but as i was dropping my dd off for her lacrosse practice, she coaches a bunch of ulittiles at esperanza.  They were waiting for the Esperanza boys varsity to finish their game against Foothill.  Foothill was up 2 nil.  Esperanza scores  a sloppy goal and celebrates.  After the goal a Foothill player charges, punches and knocks out an esperanza player.  fist to the head = two fire trucks and several ambulances later....the player still unconscious and leaves in an ambulance.

quality of soccer, coaching, refs and parenting seems to be on par with what happened last weekend at galway downs.


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## timbuck (Jan 15, 2020)

lancer said:


> i do not have a horse in this race, but as i was dropping my dd off for her lacrosse practice, she coaches a bunch of ulittiles at esperanza.  They were waiting for the Esperanza boys varsity to finish their game against Foothill.  Foothill was up 2 nil.  Esperanza scores  a sloppy goal and celebrates.  After the goal a Foothill player charges, punches and knocks out an esperanza player.  fist to the head = two fire trucks and several ambulances later....the player still unconscious and leaves in an ambulance.
> 
> quality of soccer, coaching, refs and parenting seems to be on par with what happened last weekend at galway downs.


It was probably about more than soccer.  Someone was probably dating an ex-girlfriend or was talking too much.  At least the parents didn’t rush the field or pull a gun.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jan 15, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> South County is only very small area of HS soccer. Most other games at schools in Orange county start at 3:15 pm. You are lucky with games starting at 4:30 pm


My experience with schools is that they think everyone has at least 1 stay at home parent and/or are independently wealthy.  Absolutely no concern from schools for scheduling events during the middle of the day.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jan 15, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Playing out of the back requires a bit of rehearsal and comfort with your teammates. HS soccer is pretty short term, so not a lot of teams will work on it.
> And most hs teams will put in a fast kid over a technical kid. And/or they put the tall kids on the backline to win 50/50 balls and smack it forward.
> The 1st pass when trying to build from the back is the easy one.  The 2nd, 3rd and 4th are where it takes practice and patience.


This!  DD plays at a D3 school in SD.  Kids from 2 DA clubs on the team, so DPL players.  It is rare when she can play it out of the back or make a quick throw to start a fast counter, just not what they (players) are looking for.  Last year at her club the coach spent tons of time moving the ball around right in front of own net, hours & hours.  They played exclusively out of the back. It takes time and a commitment to make it work, not to mention you need to have the players capable of playing that style.  Far less risk pushing the ball up the field and retrying to win it there.


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## Kante (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> My experience with schools is that they think everyone has at least 1 stay at home parent and/or are independently wealthy.  Absolutely no concern from schools for scheduling events during the middle of the day.


Another question: Why don't high school schedule matches over the weekend? Seems obvious on the benefits of doing that.


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## outside! (Jan 15, 2020)

Kante said:


> Another question: Why don't high school schedule matches over the weekend? Seems obvious on the benefits of doing that.


That would add to the staffing costs for the school by having a janitor there to open and close gates, bathrooms, etc.


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> This!  DD plays at a D3 school in SD.  Kids from 2 DA clubs on the team, so DPL players.  It is rare when she can play it out of the back or make a quick throw to start a fast counter, just not what they (players) are looking for.  Last year at her club the coach spent tons of time moving the ball around right in front of own net, hours & hours.  They played exclusively out of the back. It takes time and a commitment to make it work, not to mention you need to have the players capable of playing that style.  Far less risk pushing the ball up the field and retrying to win it there.


I thought SD did not allow DA players this year?


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## younothat (Jan 15, 2020)

outside! said:


> That would add to the staffing costs for the school by having a janitor there to open and close gates, bathrooms, etc.


Transportation/ cost would also be a problem since may teams travel by bus during the week. Weekend busing would be a lot more expensive I would image. Some schools rent our there fields on the weekends also to make some $ so don't see it happening for the most part but tournaments and whatnot sure.

My son went to one his friends game the other night,  more scoring in HS and less defensive played according to what hes used to.   Not that many can defend 1-1 vs good attackers so you get mismatches, double teams, and more wide open games.   Lots of balls flying in the air,  keeper punts, not nearly as much playing out the back or passing is the impression I got from him


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

lancer said:


> i do not have a horse in this race, but as i was dropping my dd off for her lacrosse practice, she coaches a bunch of ulittiles at esperanza.  They were waiting for the Esperanza boys varsity to finish their game against Foothill.  Foothill was up 2 nil.  Esperanza scores  a sloppy goal and celebrates.  After the goal a Foothill player charges, punches and knocks out an esperanza player.  fist to the head = two fire trucks and several ambulances later....the player still unconscious and leaves in an ambulance.
> 
> quality of soccer, coaching, refs and parenting seems to be on par with what happened last weekend at galway downs.


@Emma - this is why you never punch anyone unless in self defense.

I have always thought that in addition to sex ed. and drug education, high school kiddos should have to have a day or 2 of education about consequences of bad behavior, including how harmful a punch can be.  I hope the player makes a speedy recovery.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> I thought SD did not allow DA players this year?


Sorry I was not more clear; no DA players.  Players from DA clubs, so they are on DPL teams.


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## Emma (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> @Emma - this is why you never punch anyone unless in self defense.
> 
> I have always thought that in addition to sex ed. and drug education, high school kiddos should have to have a day or 2 of education about consequences of bad behavior, including how harmful a punch can be.  I hope the player makes a speedy recovery.


@Fact - I don't promote violence and I would never hit anyone unless it was self defense.  However, the example at Galway Downs is Self Defense.  That person took a swing at the 9/10 year old kid that sent him flying at least 5-7 feet.  Self Defense doesn't stop at yourself, it can also be used to defend your helpless young child.  You may think that you can assess a situation quickly and figure out that the person who swung at your child, sending him flying, is just a teenager that needs to be held down but I am honest and know that I would make sure I physically neutralize that person to make sure his 2nd punch doesn't send my kid in an ambulance or worse, after that I check on my child.

I understand why the father hit that teenager.  He's a father and he reacted to the situation as a father.  It's very easy to play Monday morning quarterback and say how we would have been very calm in that moment and go hug that teenager so tight that he couldn't hit our child anymore and hand him over to the refs or authority.  Then go check back and check on our child.  While this is a very perfect scenario, we're humans and not perfect.

I am with you and hope the kid makes a speedy recovery.


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

Emma said:


> @Fact That person took a swing at the 9/10 year old kid that sent him flying at least 5-7 feet.


The child went flying at least 5-7 feet?  Were did you hear that? And if true, I think he was clearly away from the teen and out of warms way.  I would love to see any video you have of were the dad, his kiddo and the teen were when the dad decided to go after the teen.  The teen depending on the age should be charged as an adult and the dad should be held accountable as well.


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## Emma (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> The child went flying at least 5-7 feet?  Were did you hear that? And if true, I think he was clearly away from the teen and out of warms way.  I would love to see any video you have of were the dad, his kiddo and the teen were when the dad decided to go after the teen.  The teen depending on the age should be charged as an adult and the dad should be held accountable as well.


Watch the videos @Fact.   It's been posted multiple times.  If he ran from the sidelines to punch the kid that hard, what makes you think he won't continue to do the same? I don't judge a man by his fatherly instinct to protect against an attacker nor claim to do better than him.


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

Emma said:


> Watch the videos @Fact.   It's been posted multiple times.  If he ran from the sidelines to punch the kid that hard, what makes you think he won't continue to do the same? I don't judge a man by his fatherly instinct to protect against an attacker nor claim to do better than him.


Don't deflect, answer the quetion.


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## outside! (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> I thought SD did not allow DA players this year?


What do you mean by SD? If you mean San Diego schools, I don't believe it would be legal for a school to not allow players from any league.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> I thought SD did not allow DA players this year?


Could be DPL players.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> My experience with schools is that they think everyone has at least 1 stay at home parent and/or are independently wealthy.  Absolutely no concern from schools for scheduling events during the middle of the day.


Funny... our club team suffers from the same ailment.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> @Emma - this is why you never punch anyone unless in self defense.
> 
> I have always thought that in addition to sex ed. and drug education, high school kiddos should have to have a day or 2 of education about consequences of bad behavior, including how harmful a punch can be.  I hope the player makes a speedy recovery.


Kid might be in the wrong sport if he can wear a glove and knock out a kid wearing a mask and helmet.


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## espola (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> Don't deflect, answer the quetion.


Rebutting is not deflecting.  Find another word to be your favorite.


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## espola (Jan 15, 2020)

outside! said:


> What do you mean by SD? If you mean San Diego schools, I don't believe it would be legal for a school to not allow players from any league.


It's actually the other way around.  DA does not allow HS play.


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## Speed (Jan 15, 2020)

Kante said:


> Another question: Why don't high school schedule matches over the weekend? Seems obvious on the benefits of doing that.


we had a game last weekend. only one of this year but last year we had 3 Saturday games during league


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## NickName (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> This!  DD plays at a D3 school in SD.  Kids from 2 DA clubs on the team, so DPL players.  It is rare when she can play it out of the back or make a quick throw to start a fast counter, just not what they (players) are looking for.  Last year at her club the coach spent tons of time moving the ball around right in front of own net, hours & hours.  They played exclusively out of the back. It takes time and a commitment to make it work, not to mention you need to have the players capable of playing that style.  Far less risk pushing the ball up the field and retrying to win it there.


keep in mind the quality of the fields as well.  Most of the non-varsity games in our area are on patchy dirt/crabgrass.  Tough to make passes when the ball is skipping around in unexpected directions.  Much easier to boot it


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## timbuck (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> My experience with schools is that they think everyone has at least 1 stay at home parent and/or are independently wealthy.  Absolutely no concern from schools for scheduling events during the middle of the day.


Or maybe the schools figured out that they are better off to play without parents around


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jan 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Rebutting is not deflecting.  Find another word to be your favorite.


Normally I'd rebut this... but nobody knows deflection like you.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 15, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Normally I'd rebut this... but nobody knows deflection like you.


Has to be Magoo commenting from the home again!


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jan 15, 2020)

NickName said:


> keep in mind the quality of the fields as well.  Most of the non-varsity games in our area are on patchy dirt/crabgrass.  Tough to make passes when the ball is skipping around in unexpected directions.  Much easier to boot it


Understood, but DD is on the varsity team and they play/practice on turf.  Every game (so far) has been on turf as well.


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## timbuck (Jan 15, 2020)

Here's another perspective on why teams don't build out of the back in high school.
Many JV and Frosh/Soph coaches are former players at the high school (maybe the graduated last year). Some are local club coaches.  Some are biology teachers.  Lots of varsity coaches have club experience and may have a few licenses.  At the JV and Frosh/soph level all you need is to take the NFHS online course.
Teams typically have at least 20 players on the roster.  It is pretty hard to run an effective practice with 1 coach and that many players. Especially a bunch of giggling freshman.  So you have a new coach (who may not have ever been taught to play out of the back by any of her former coaches. Especially if she was the star forward).  And you have a large roster of girls that haven't played together before.  And you have a strong sense of school pride and REALLY wanting to win against your buddies at other schools.  And you have a pretty short season with minimal time in between games. And you have girls who are getting hurt (Great to play out of the back when your starting back line is all healthy. But if the back up isn't as strong, you risk it).
You have 90 minutes 2-3 times per week and 2 games per week. And the "season" is really the month of January.  Not saying it's the right way to do things, but I understand why teams play this way.


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> This!  DD plays at a D3 school in SD.  Kids from 2 DA clubs on the team, so DPL players.  .





Fact said:


> I thought SD did not allow DA players this year?





outside! said:


> What do you mean by SD? If you mean San Diego schools, I don't believe it would be legal for a school to not allow players from any league.


MyDaughter said that there are 2 DA clubs on his dd's high school team, so I was questioning that because I thought CIF San Diego does not allowing DA players even at private schools this year/need based exemptions.  He clarified it by saying DPL players are on the team.

But maybe someone can clarify for me San Diego CIF rules this year:  
I know that many DA teams do not allow their players to play high school soccer (I am correct that it is a club rule or is it a DA Rule?)
Last year, DA players were allowed to practice with their DA teams and also play high school if they had an exemption-enrolled in a private school with a scholarship predicated on playing high school soccer.
This year, I heard that no DA players could play high school soccer in San Diego -CIF was not granted exemptions.
But then I saw some DA players on high school rosters.  Did the players quit DA and plan to rejoin the same or other team after the high school season?  OR are they still allowing exemptions for private school players.

When my ds was playing, the loophole was easy to get around. Quit DA during high school and rejoin afterwards.  But I thought they did away with the loophole?


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Rebutting is not deflecting.  Find another word to be your favorite.


It is, if you pose it as a question. Which you do.


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## timbuck (Jan 15, 2020)

DA has a rule that you can’t play any other soccer.  Some can get exemptions. 
High School has a rule that during the season, you can’t participate in the same sport with an outside team. (Doesn’t matter if it’s DA, dpl, AYSO or even a pick up scrimmage with lots of your teammates). The Hs rule is not specific to DA). If the high school (or really if a rival high school) has proof that players are attending practices with the club, that high school would likely have to forfeit games.
I’m not sure what the consequences are if a DA player is on a HS team without a waiver.  Will US soccer or the club kick them out?


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## espola (Jan 15, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> It is, if you pose it as a question. Which you do.


For example?


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## Kante (Jan 15, 2020)

timbuck said:


> DA has a rule that you can’t play any other soccer.  Some can get exemptions.
> High School has a rule that during the season, you can’t participate in the same sport with an outside team. (Doesn’t matter if it’s DA, dpl, AYSO or even a pick up scrimmage with lots of your teammates). The Hs rule is not specific to DA). If the high school (or really if a rival high school) has proof that players are attending practices with the club, that high school would likely have to forfeit games.
> I’m not sure what the consequences are if a DA player is on a HS team without a waiver.  Will US soccer or the club kick them out?


Chiming in.. High school/CIF rule is that a high school player may play the same sport if that sport has less than 1/2 the players on the court as the high school sport. eg, a high school basketball player cannot play in a 3v3 basketball tournament but a high school volleyball player may play in 2v2 beach volleyball tournament.

Presumably, high school soccer players could play/practice 5v5 futsal team/tournament.

DA does have a rule that says no high school soccer. Exceptions to this rule can/do include DA players playing on a private high school soccer team when said players are on soccer-related scholarship.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 15, 2020)

espola said:


> For example?


One just has to look at your posts. Or this one of course, conveniently.


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## espola (Jan 15, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> One just has to look at your posts. Or this one of course, conveniently.


Nonsense.


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## Kante (Jan 15, 2020)

Kante said:


> Chiming in.. High school/CIF rule is that a high school player may play the same sport if that sport has less than 1/2 the players on the court as the high school sport. eg, a high school basketball player cannot play in a 3v3 basketball tournament but a high school volleyball player may play in 2v2 beach volleyball tournament.
> 
> Presumably, high school soccer players could play/practice 5v5 futsal team/tournament.
> 
> DA does have a rule that says no high school soccer. Exceptions to this rule can/do include DA players playing on a private high school soccer team when said players are on soccer-related scholarship.


Would it make sense to move high school to full year season - like they're looking to do with college - and then have one game on Saturday's?

Could pay the coaches 50% to 100% of a teacher's salary - i.e. if they coach just Varsity, or both JV and Varsity. (Assumes 4 practices per week at 2 hours per practice and 30 games per year)


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## Fact (Jan 15, 2020)

Kante said:


> Chiming in.. High school/CIF rule is that a high school player may play the same sport if that sport has less than 1/2 the players on the court as the high school sport. eg, a high school basketball player cannot play in a 3v3 basketball tournament but a high school volleyball player may play in 2v2 beach volleyball tournament.
> 
> Presumably, high school soccer players could play/practice 5v5 futsal team/tournament.
> 
> DA does have a rule that says no high school soccer. Exceptions to this rule can/do include DA players playing on a private high school soccer team when said players are on soccer-related scholarship.


I don’t know why I am thinking that there are no exemptions in San Diego this year but OC still have them.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Nonsense.


Your right, deflection also comes in singular words (like “nonsense”) and from denial.


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## espola (Jan 15, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Your right, deflection also comes in singular words (like “nonsense”) and from denial.


That's not a deflection, it's a dismissal.


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## Kante (Jan 15, 2020)

Fact said:


> I don’t know why I am thinking that there are no exemptions in San Diego this year but OC still have them.


believe there's a private OC high school that has several Pats DA players on their high school roster...


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## timbuck (Jan 15, 2020)

Kante said:


> believe there's a private OC high school that has several Pats DA players on their high school roster...


Is it the one where pats coaches are coaching there this year?  The Tartans?


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## Kante (Jan 15, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Is it the one where pats coaches are coaching there this year?  The Tartans?


not sure. just heard thru this forum a while back and glanced at the roster to confirm. forget which school.


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## outside! (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> Would it make sense to move high school to full year season - like they're looking to do with college - and then have one game on Saturday's?
> 
> Could pay the coaches 50% to 100% of a teacher's salary - i.e. if they coach just Varsity, or both JV and Varsity. (Assumes 4 practices per week at 2 hours per practice and 30 games per year)


No, that would not make sense for many reasons. Field space being the biggest one.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> No, that would not make sense for many reasons. Field space being the biggest one.


(Obvious question) Because most schools share fields with football and soccer?


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## outside! (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> (Obvious question) Because most schools share fields with football and soccer?


Yes. They also share fields with field hockey and possibly lacrosse.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> Yes. They also share fields with field hockey and possibly lacrosse.


if fields weren't an issues, what would be the other objection(s)?


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## espola (Jan 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> Yes. They also share fields with field hockey and possibly lacrosse.


And rugby and track and marching band.


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## timbuck (Jan 16, 2020)

With a kid who is a freshman this year- I am amazed at how much the sports facilities at our school are used.  Seems that during weekday league or weekend scrimmage soccer games that there is always something going on with all fields.  
The pool is always in use. Boys and girls basketball is always there. Baseball and softball fields are being used. The “spare” open field has lacrosse or a soccer team on it. The weight room is always packed. And I’m sure the coaches would appreciate a weekend off by not having games on Saturdays.   They don’t get paid enough to make it a 6 day a week job.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

timbuck said:


> With a kid who is a freshman this year- I am amazed at how much the sports facilities at our school are used.  Seems that during weekday league or weekend scrimmage soccer games that there is always something going on with all fields.
> The pool is always in use. Boys and girls basketball is always there. Baseball and softball fields are being used. The “spare” open field has lacrosse or a soccer team on it. The weight room is always packed. And I’m sure the coaches would appreciate a weekend off by not having games on Saturdays.   They don’t get paid enough to make it a 6 day a week job.


On pay, absolutely fair point re; current pay structure. Looks like most coaches get about $10-$15k w/ no benies

Point would be to pay coaches for their time. So the hours would be 16 hours per week (4 days -m thru r - practice m-r 2hrs x 2 teams (JV and Varsity) plus two games on Saturday (3 hours per game x 2 games). Doing the math, 22 hours per week w/ teacher's break during summer. Assumes also that coaches put in similar prep as teachers do for class prep for practices, games, video analysis etc.

Would be reasonable to pay someone who did those hours a full time teacher's salary plus benies. In CA, this would average to about $60k+ salary plus another 20% for health insurance etc, and then same professional development that teachers' get. i.e. essentially make soccer coaches full time teachers.

What are the other objections to this? Genuinely asking.


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## Emma (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> On pay, absolutely fair point re; current pay structure. Looks like most coaches get about $10-$15k w/ no benies
> 
> Point would be to pay coaches for their time. So the hours would be 16 hours per week (4 days -m thru r - practice m-r 2hrs x 2 teams (JV and Varsity) plus two games on Saturday (3 hours per game x 2 games). Doing the math, 22 hours per week w/ teacher's break during summer. Assumes also that coaches put in similar prep as teachers do for class prep for practices, games, video analysis etc.
> 
> ...


Cost
For private schools with financial capabilities, nothing.
For public schools, it it not financially possible.  Their finances are mostly dedicated to improving test scores.  Not sure if a booster club would be able to finance it, but taxpayers are unwilling to.  I would be willing to but I have a vested interested.


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## MamaBear5 (Jan 16, 2020)

I want to clarify the pay structure. A good portion of the high school coaches are walk ons - they have other jobs or are club coaches. Only the head coach position is provided a stipend by the district and this varies by district. The other coaches on staff are paid off of the booster club and team donations. In california at a public school all sports are donation based and parents are donating less and less. One JV coach that I know makes a generous $3,300 a season. This includes all practices (and the boys practice through breaks and have tournaments over christmas break), all games, and hours of communicating with the parents.

The coaches are doing it because they love it - not because of the pay.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

MamaBear5 said:


> I want to clarify the pay structure. A good portion of the high school coaches are walk ons - they have other jobs or are club coaches. Only the head coach position is provided a stipend by the district and this varies by district. The other coaches on staff are paid off of the booster club and team donations. In california at a public school all sports are donation based and parents are donating less and less. One JV coach that I know makes a generous $3,300 a season. This includes all practices (and the boys practice through breaks and have tournaments over christmas break), all games, and hours of communicating with the parents.
> 
> The coaches are doing it because they love it - not because of the pay.


Agreed. The thought would be to comp the coaches, so that at lease the head coaches could dedicate themselves rather than having it be a side gig.


Emma said:


> Cost
> For private schools with financial capabilities, nothing.
> For public schools, it it not financially possible.  Their finances are mostly dedicated to improving test scores.  Not sure if a booster club would be able to finance it, but taxpayers are unwilling to.  I would be willing to but I have a vested interested.


This, am sure, is raising the red flag ... (easy guys) ... but would think that could be current coach pay from the districts could be supplemented by the state. If head coaches receive an average of $12k (being conservative) then CA provides another $60k per coach to supplement. There's 3,162 public high schools in CA, so it's about $400m (again, easy guys), which sounds like a lot but is less than .2% of the total CA budget. 

other than field availability and $, are the other objections? Genuinely asking those folks who are more familiar w/ high school soccer.


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## outside! (Jan 16, 2020)

Back to the quality of HS soccer. My son's JV team plays out of the back very well. They also play long balls when it is prudent. As a JV team, they do not have the biggest, fastest of most skilled players, but they work well with what the players they have.


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## outside! (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> other than field availability and $, are the other objections? Genuinely asking those folks who are more familiar w/ high school soccer.


Are you suggesting that HS soccer replace club soccer for HS aged players?


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

maybe. thinking out loud mostly. why not? what are the downsides? (playing devil's advocate here...)


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> Back to the quality of HS soccer. My son's JV team plays out of the back very well. They also play long balls when it is prudent. As a JV team, they do not have the biggest, fastest of most skilled players, but they work well with what the players they have.


interesting. have seen the local JV and frosh teams actually play higher "quality" soccer imo than the Varsity. not sure if this is a function of player personnel (varsity has a really good, strong fast difference making striker...) or just different coaches. All the teams have players from the local clubs, most of whom can play high "quality" soccer if allowed.


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## timbuck (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> Agreed. The thought would be to comp the coaches, so that at lease the head coaches could dedicate themselves rather than having it be a side gig.
> 
> This, am sure, is raising the red flag ... (easy guys) ... but would think that could be current coach pay from the districts could be supplemented by the state. If head coaches receive an average of $12k (being conservative) then CA provides another $60k per coach to supplement. There's 3,162 public high schools in CA, so it's about $400m (again, easy guys), which sounds like a lot but is less than .2% of the total CA budget.
> 
> other than field availability and $, are the other objections? Genuinely asking those folks who are more familiar w/ high school soccer.


Why would CA or any other state want to do this?


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> Back to the quality of HS soccer. My son's JV team plays out of the back very well. They also play long balls when it is prudent. As a JV team, they do not have the biggest, fastest of most skilled players, but they work well with what the players they have.


thinking out loud again. Maybe at the Varsity level, the player athleticism (size and speed) outpaces their skill. 

At Varsity matches, the field seems like shrinks. Maybe the players' don't have the skill to play fast enough to play around an equally big/fast opponent.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Why would CA or any other state want to do this?


would be like first five, but to help high school kids stay on college track. all high schools require minimum gpa and other standards to play sports. 

so, every grade would have 40 to 50 students who would be required to maintain a certain high level, so it works out to an additional $1,333 per student being spent per year on a defined group of students to help them get to college. 

other programs to support students to get/stay on college track exist but not sure how the costs/effectiveness would compare.


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## Emma (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> Agreed. The thought would be to comp the coaches, so that at lease the head coaches could dedicate themselves rather than having it be a side gig.
> 
> This, am sure, is raising the red flag ... (easy guys) ... but would think that could be current coach pay from the districts could be supplemented by the state. If head coaches receive an average of $12k (being conservative) then CA provides another $60k per coach to supplement. There's 3,162 public high schools in CA, so it's about $400m (again, easy guys), which sounds like a lot but is less than .2% of the total CA budget.
> 
> other than field availability and $, are the other objections? Genuinely asking those folks who are more familiar w/ high school soccer.


Are these numbers specific to boys high school soccer coaches only?  Or do they apply to all sports, both genders, and all levels (JV, FR, & Varsity)?  If they only include boy's soccer, we're gonna need a little more from Fort Knox.  Although, .2% seems small, it is a large amount when you have thousands of things to finance.

I like the idea of bringing club soccer back to high school because it opens up access to all and would make the quality of high school soccer better.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

Emma said:


> Are these numbers specific to boys high school soccer coaches only?  Or do they apply to all sports, both genders, and all levels (JV, FR, & Varsity)?  If they only include boy's soccer, we're gonna need a little more from Fort Knox.  Although, .2% seems small, it is a large amount when you have thousands of things to finance.
> 
> I like the idea of bringing club soccer back to high school because it opens up access to all and would make the quality of high school soccer better.


the $400m would cover head coaches for both boys and girls, and JV and Varsity. Any additional $ for frosh, and assistant coaches would be incremental to current system. And, to be conservative, assumes every high school in CA would participate


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## timbuck (Jan 16, 2020)

At our HS, we had over 150 girls try out.  Most of them are currently playing club soccer.  About half of them made one of the 3 teams.
So under your model, there's 75 kids between the ages of 14 and 18 that won't be playing soccer.  (And our boys tryouts were similar).  I know this isn't the case for all schools.


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## timbuck (Jan 16, 2020)

I'd rather see California put sports back in at the middle school level.  Basketball, soccer, baseball, tennis for sure.  Maybe even tackle football. Give kid that can't afford the time or money associated with club sports.


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## Kante (Jan 16, 2020)

timbuck said:


> At our HS, we had over 150 girls try out.  Most of them are currently playing club soccer.  About half of them made one of the 3 teams.
> So under your model, there's 75 kids between the ages of 14 and 18 that won't be playing soccer.  (And our boys tryouts were similar).  I know this isn't the case for all schools.


probably clubs don't go away for high school. just that high school is expanded. 

anyone who didn't make high school, could keep playing club, as they do now. thinking about it, high school would compete more w/ DA than club level play.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 16, 2020)

espola said:


> That's not a deflection, it's a dismissal.


You do realize there almost the same thing in the context we are referring to.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> probably clubs don't go away for high school. just that high school is expanded.
> 
> anyone who didn't make high school, could keep playing club, as they do now. thinking about it, high school would compete more w/ DA than club level play.


K-read your material on the boys side. Good stuff. I truly am enjoying your devils advocate here. A new twist your adding.


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## espola (Jan 16, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> You do realize there almost the same thing in the context we are referring to.


Nonsense.


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## ajaffe (Jan 19, 2020)

Kante said:


> On pay, absolutely fair point re; current pay structure. Looks like most coaches get about $10-$15k w/ no benies
> 
> Point would be to pay coaches for their time. So the hours would be 16 hours per week (4 days -m thru r - practice m-r 2hrs x 2 teams (JV and Varsity) plus two games on Saturday (3 hours per game x 2 games). Doing the math, 22 hours per week w/ teacher's break during summer. Assumes also that coaches put in similar prep as teachers do for class prep for practices, games, video analysis etc.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting the 10-12k number for coaching high school soccer from?


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## Soccerfan2 (Jan 19, 2020)

High school coaching stipends are usually around $3-4K per year.
I’m assuming you are actually asking a serious question...but where in the world would the money come from to pay coaches full time? Soccer is not special. Take a stab at the added cost per school district to make all its coaches full time employees. Might as well keep going - include the performing arts programs too.
Educators would just like full funding for the academic needs of students.
How is fully funding year round extracurriculars in the public interest?


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## Surfref (Jan 19, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I heard the pay is not good at all.  I don;t know how much refs get paid these days but the abuse they go through is insane. With all the price increases in club I think it's now time to pay good refs good pay.  Bad pay=bad refs or just unhappy refs who don't feel appreciated imho.  I say refs should strike for more pay.  HS has been good so far and not as bad as club. Thanks to all the refs who work hard for us


Ref pay in HS games is a lot better than Club.  80 minute HS game 3-man is $77-62-62 and 2-man is $68 each.  Club 3-man for an 80 minute game is $62-37-37.  ARs make considerably more in a HS game.  My guess would be that 75 percent of HS refs also work Club games and 20 percent work college, so the quality of refs in HS and Club should be similar.


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## Surfref (Jan 19, 2020)

Kante said:


> Would it make sense to move high school to full year season - like they're looking to do with college - and then have one game on Saturday's?
> 
> Could pay the coaches 50% to 100% of a teacher's salary - i.e. if they coach just Varsity, or both JV and Varsity. (Assumes 4 practices per week at 2 hours per practice and 30 games per year)


And, where are HS going to get this extra money to pay these coaches.  They barely have enough to pay the coaches now.


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## Surfref (Jan 19, 2020)

Kante said:


> On pay, absolutely fair point re; current pay structure. Looks like most coaches get about $10-$15k w/ no benies
> 
> Point would be to pay coaches for their time. So the hours would be 16 hours per week (4 days -m thru r - practice m-r 2hrs x 2 teams (JV and Varsity) plus two games on Saturday (3 hours per game x 2 games). Doing the math, 22 hours per week w/ teacher's break during summer. Assumes also that coaches put in similar prep as teachers do for class prep for practices, games, video analysis etc.
> 
> ...


Most coaches are lucky to get paid $2000 for the current season.  They get a set budget that has to cover any new uniform items, buses, Coach salaries for F, JV and Var, plus other expenses that may come up.  No way do any So Cal coaches make anywhere near $10K.


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## socalkdg (Jan 19, 2020)

Emma said:


> Watch the videos @Fact.   It's been posted multiple times.  If he ran from the sidelines to punch the kid that hard, what makes you think he won't continue to do the same? I don't judge a man by his fatherly instinct to protect against an attacker nor claim to do better than him.


I saw the video and the kid that gets punched flies backward and lays on the ground.  It was a pretty scary punch thrown.   If it was your kid, you might act the same way.  Look here at the 57 second mark. 









						Gun Scare in Fight at Youth Soccer Tournament in Temecula
					

NBC 7’s Artie Ojeda spoke to a player’s parent about the potential dangers and aftermath.




					www.nbcsandiego.com


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## Eagle33 (Jan 20, 2020)

timbuck said:


> At our HS, we had over 150 girls try out.  Most of them are currently playing club soccer.  About half of them made one of the 3 teams.
> So under your model, there's 75 kids between the ages of 14 and 18 that won't be playing soccer.  (And our boys tryouts were similar).  I know this isn't the case for all schools.


So to your point if only half of 150 girls made 3 teams, the other half is not good enough to make HS teams, even though they playing club?


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## Kante (Jan 20, 2020)

Surfref said:


> And, where are HS going to get this extra money to pay these coaches.  They barely have enough to pay the coaches now.


CA gov. Money's there but some choices would have to be made. key would be making the argument that playing year long soccer is critical to student's academic success. other programs focusing on the academic success of a set of students throughout the year exist.


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## espola (Jan 20, 2020)

Kante said:


> CA gov. Money's there but some choices would have to be made. key would be making the argument that playing year long soccer is critical to student's academic success. other programs focusing on the academic success of a set of students throughout the year exist.


Coocoo.


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## Eagle33 (Jan 20, 2020)

Kante said:


> CA gov. Money's there but some choices would have to be made. key would be making the argument that playing year long soccer is critical to student's academic success. other programs focusing on the academic success of a set of students throughout the year exist.


Actually many boys keeping grades in HS so they can play. Off season they don't care about their grades.


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## timbuck (Jan 20, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> So to your point if only half of 150 girls made 3 teams, the other half is not good enough to make HS teams, even though they playing club?


Another story for another time.  But not wrong.


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