# SCDSL adding Discovery Division



## Far Post (Feb 5, 2018)

Interesting new development for club soccer in socal.

http://goalnation.com/improving-youth-soccer-scdsl-kicks-off-new-discovery-division/


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## Soccer43 (Feb 5, 2018)

So basically, many clubs left CSL to start a new league that was supposed to be different and now they are creating a "premier" level of SCDSL which is just like CSL's Premier division?


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## RedHawk (Feb 5, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> So basically, many clubs left CSL to start a new league that was supposed to be different and now they are creating a "premier" level of SCDSL which is just like CSL's Premier division?


Yes.....but now we all get to pay for parking too!!


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## Dos Equis (Feb 5, 2018)

Full disclosure -- I have never been a fan of SCDSL. I aways thought it was more marketing than substance, and other than the positive of adding another option for parents and players, the creation of the league added less than it detracted from Socal soccer, in my opinion.

I also hate the idea of yet another league, as there are too many already.  Talented is diluted everywhere, and we willingly let others do that to us.

Having said that, this is a positive development.  They took a lot of good ideas, are trying to incorporate them into one circuit, and make it Socal focused. I hope it works, and I think clubs should take a serious look at this, even if they are currently CSL clubs.  It think something like this, done right, could have an impact on both ECNL and DA.  It could kill National League and CRL.  CSL should have done this with Premier 5 years ago.   

Does anyone really want to go to Phoenix, Orlando, New Jersey,  North Carolina, Texas ... sometime twice in a year, to beat up on teams that are no better than the Socal competition that these leagues prevent us from facing?  Do we want US Soccer, and its recent track record of underachievement, telling us they know better?

Just please do not let those vaunted "SOCCER PEOPLE" screw this up, SCDSL.  Run this league a business.  Let the clubs and coaches manage their own soccer, not the league.


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## timbuck (Feb 5, 2018)

My first reaction(s):

Great. Another new league. 
Great.  All of these things that are “paid for” aren’t free.  Money is coming from the rest of the teams in the league.  Unless there is a sponsor somewhere that wasn’t mentioned
Does this mean that the scdsl schedule will take even longer to come out each year?
I would have preferred more games in the season this year.  We played 10. The coast team we’ll be playing in presidents in 2 weeks had 12 plus 2 league cup games.   The sdda team played 12. 
How is this different that what’s already offered under other various names? 
Is SCDSLs biggest issue the creation of a new gaming circuit?


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## outside! (Feb 5, 2018)

In the distant future, when they study this period in the development of the game in the US, what are they going to call this era?


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## MWN (Feb 5, 2018)

timbuck said:


> My first reaction(s):
> 
> Great. Another new league.
> Great.  All of these things that are “paid for” aren’t free.  Money is coming from the rest of the teams in the league.  Unless there is a sponsor somewhere that wasn’t mentioned
> ...


My response, in order:

Technically, no.  Just a division within the SCDSL.
The SCDSL (to my understanding) was sitting on a pile of cash.  This is a direct response to the DPL, EGSL, CRL, NPL, etc.   The teams that register for the Discovery Division will pay their fees (probably more), but less than the ECNL and others will pay.
If all the games are at Silverlakes, then no.  The hold up on the schedule has traditionally been clubs failing to provide field permits in a timely basis to SCDSL.
I take it your team didn't make it far in the SCDSL playoffs.
Its different in that SCDSL is making a run at top level CSL teams (and the NPL incursion) with an offer to give them back their buy-in if they win the division.  Pretty smart in my book.
Again, the article states this is a division within SCDSL and not a new gaming circuit (i.e. league).


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

Far Post said:


> Interesting new development for club soccer in socal.
> 
> http://goalnation.com/improving-youth-soccer-scdsl-kicks-off-new-discovery-division/


What a joke. The SCDSL is as bush league as it gets. Think Lakers being run by Jim Bus. No direction, no vision, steered only by financial interests with no mission. Goalnation should be  spanked for publishing that garbage. Who wants to drive to Silverlake for anything ever, much less every weekend during the hottest months of the year?


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

outside! said:


> In the distant future, when they study this period in the development of the game in the US, what are they going to call this era?


“All the money in the world.”


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## Nutmeg (Feb 6, 2018)

Soccer and the people that run it often make me a combination of sad, confused, and irritated.


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## espola (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> What a joke. The SCDSL is as bush league as it gets. Think Lakers being run by Jim Bus. No direction, no vision, steered only by financial interests with no mission. Goalnation should be  spanked for publishing that garbage. Who wants to drive to Silverlake for anything ever, much less every weekend during the hottest months of the year?


Goalnation is eager to publish any press release they get ready to go.  They don't even bother to fix the typos.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Feb 6, 2018)

The usual suspects controlling more and more pieces of the youth soccer puzzle. I see some major conflicts of interest for some of the league administrators with fingers in too many pies!


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## Fact (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> What a joke. The SCDSL is as bush league as it gets. Think Lakers being run by Jim Bus. No direction, no vision, steered only by financial interests with no mission. Goalnation should be  spanked for publishing that garbage. Who wants to drive to Silverlake for anything ever, much less every weekend during the hottest months of the year?


Goal Nation is garbage.


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## zags77 (Feb 6, 2018)

This is brilliant for the founder clubs of SCDSL!  Now if these clubs miss on any kids for their DA,  ECNL or DPL programs they can go to Silverlakes on any given Saturday and Sunday to find kids from the local smaller clubs near their area!


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## Fact (Feb 6, 2018)

zags77 said:


> This is brilliant for the founder clubs of SCDSL!  Now if these clubs miss on any kids for their DA,  ECNL or DPL programs they can go to Silverlakes on any given Saturday and Sunday to find kids from the local smaller clubs near their area!


Exactly, all of accomplishes is putting the next "highest" teams in one place for easier recruiting by clubs.


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## broshark (Feb 6, 2018)

They should turn it into more.  After the season, the top 4 teams play the top 4 DAII teams in SoCal, and the top 4 from there play the top 4 ECNL teams.  The top teams get to be kings/queens of SoCal, excluding DA.

Now that's a circuit.


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## timbuck (Feb 6, 2018)

If scdsl really wanted to change things up-  they’d bring back some sort of spring league.  And then enact a summer round robin season.


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## MWN (Feb 6, 2018)

I went back and read the article again and I need to revise a little.  Clearly this is a response to marginalizing of the leagues by US Soccer (DA) and a forward thinking proposition that could really only work in a few select regions (Cal South) being one of those regions.  Let's look at the features claimed:

*The benefits of playing in the Discovery Division are:*

_Teams will play an 11-game fall season._
_Games will all be played at Silverlakes in Norco — unless teams from the same area like San Diego are scheduled to play each other in which case games will be played at the Surf Cup Sports Park in Del Mar._
_All fall test dates are accommodated._
_Referee fees will be covered by the league for this division._
_1st and 2nd place of each division will receive a tournament stipend of $1400 from the SCDSL to participate in the tournament of their choice after the end of the SCDSL season. This means that 20 teams from the SCDSL will receive a stipend to assist them in after-league competition to further their college exposure._
_Winners will receive guaranteed acceptance into Surf Cup._
_There will be end of season awards voted on by coaches in each game via a nomination process._
_There will be the option to have games video taped._
_Convenient scheduling with games being played youngest to oldest similar to DA and ECNL formats._
_A designated onsite social media presence and a division specific statistician on site for all game days._
_There will also be a spring College Showcase for the Discovery Division paid for, and hosted, by the SCDSL. There is no fee for this. Teams from outside of SoCal will be invited, college coaches will be invited and the DOC’s are all committed to making this an exceptional event for the players towards their goals of playing college soccer._

Limited to fall season, thus, doesn't impact HS (like DA, NPL and Spring leagues). 
SCDSL is already on the hook for fields at Silverlakes under a 5 year deal, so this allows them to exploit that field space inventory.  Smart.
Test dates accomodated ... good for olders.
Referees covered by the league means fees for the league will simply be higher to cover that expense.
Tournament stipend ($1,400) is smart because it means teams that win get their money back creating a draw for higher level teams in other leagues (SDDA, CSL, DPL, ECNL (girls and boys)) to joint the SCDSL, which in turn may cause those clubs that are not already "in the SCDSL" to move all their teams over.
Guaranteed Acceptance to Surf Cup sounds like a direct response to what Cal South does with CRL and National Cup.  Surf Cup benefits in that they get to advertise these winners to the rest of the nation.  Again, smart on both parties.
End of Season Awards ... resume building for players.  Cool.
Option to have games video taped, probably a paid option but for high level teams with high level players, they need that film for their recruiting videos.  This will probably cost the team though, but great.  Although that option generally exists anyway.
The "convenient scheduling" line item is very important for coaches and docs.  With all the games at one facility, conflicts are eliminated making this an attractive option.
Division specific statistician is interesting, we are helping build those resumes for the college scholarship bound.
Spring Showcase (likely at Norco), who has a problem with that?  Good for them.
All in all for the elite SoCal teams not in the DA, this looks like a very attractive program for Fall play.


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> I went back and read the article again and I need to revise a little.  Clearly this is a response to marginalizing of the leagues by US Soccer (DA) and a forward thinking proposition that could really only work in a few select regions (Cal South) being one of those regions.  Let's look at the features claimed:
> 
> *The benefits of playing in the Discovery Division are:*
> 
> ...


You are doing a great job as the spokesperson for the SCDSL. The SCDSL only cares about money and not the development of players. That’s why kids leave for other leagues. Restating what you already said doesn’t change this proposition.


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## soccerobserver (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN, good summary...perhaps I am missing something but is this essentially the Champions Division moved to Silverlakes and paired with financial perks ?? Or will the two co-exist??


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## boomer (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> You are doing a great job as the spokesperson for the SCDSL. The SCDSL only cares about money and not the development of players. That’s why kids leave for other leagues. Restating what you already said doesn’t change this proposition.


Why so sour on this? This is a refinement and obvious improvement of an existing league designed to accommodate the better teams in SCDSL. Maybe CSL should consider something similar or risk losing their better teams. While the thought of Norco in Sept and Oct makes me cringe a little, this is better than schlepping all over hell and back to play crap teams, and not knowing when or where it will all happen until you are less than a week out from first kickoff.


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## Surfref (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> ....... Who wants to drive to Silverlake for anything ever, much less every weekend during the hottest months of the year?


I could not agree more.  Silverlakes is a scorching hell hole in September and early October.  My daughter was coaching her team in State Cup at Silverlakes and asked me to go with her.  On a Saturday it took us 5 1/2 hours round trip from San Diego.  I cannot imagine making that 5+ hour trip 11 weekends in a row in the fall.  That will get old really fast.  I wonder if they will give a discount on parking otherwise that is another $110 in parking fees.  I do like the idea of the best non-DA teams playing each other.


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## espola (Feb 6, 2018)

If they are going to give some teams cash awards at the end of the season, they better have their appeals and tie-breaker rules cleaned out before they start.


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

boomer said:


> Why so sour on this? This is a refinement and obvious improvement of an existing league designed to accommodate the better teams in SCDSL. Maybe CSL should consider something similar or risk losing their better teams. While the thought of Norco in Sept and Oct makes me cringe a little, this is better than schlepping all over hell and back to play crap teams, and not knowing when or where it will all happen until you are less than a week out from first kickoff.


Because the SCDSL are just administrators. They have no interest in improvements, just more opportunities to make money. Instead of making soccer more accessible and more local, they are increasing inconvenience, costs, frustration and the well being of players. The more parents drive and pay, the more frustrated they become and the more pressure it puts on players. And $1400 is the cost of one tournament, maybe $50 a player. That’s one round trip to Silverlake including gas and parking fee. Really?


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## MWN (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> You are doing a great job as the spokesperson for the SCDSL. The SCDSL only cares about money and not the development of players. That’s why kids leave for other leagues. Restating what you already said doesn’t change this proposition.


Ok, assuming you are correct that its purely a money play to keep teams in the league and collect dollars.  How is this different from any other league?  Moreover, its looks like SCDSL has one-upped the competition for those dollars.  In light of the fact that all this soccer costs us parents money and playing in Regional leagues is even more expensive because we have to spend big bucks traveling to Arizona and Nevada and New Mexico, etc..  Seems like this new division may be money well spent because it solves a major problem for the parents of non-DA and ECNL kids ... exposure and will ultimately save those parents their hard earned cash, but we will lose Hilton and Marriott points.


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## espola (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Ok, assuming you are correct that its purely a money play to keep teams in the league and collect dollars.  How is this different from any other league?  Moreover, its looks like SCDSL has one-upped the competition for those dollars.  In light of the fact that all this soccer costs us parents money and playing in Regional leagues is even more expensive because we have to spend big bucks traveling to Arizona and Nevada and New Mexico, etc..  Seems like this new division may be money well spent because it solves a major problem for the parents of non-DA and ECNL kids ... exposure and will ultimately save those parents their hard earned cash, but we will lose Hilton and Marriott points.


Exposure?  I will bet that the teams that get into  this league will be from the usual list of suspects.


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Ok, assuming you are correct that its purely a money play to keep teams in the league and collect dollars.  How is this different from any other league?  Moreover, its looks like SCDSL has one-upped the competition for those dollars.  In light of the fact that all this soccer costs us parents money and playing in Regional leagues is even more expensive because we have to spend big bucks traveling to Arizona and Nevada and New Mexico, etc..  Seems like this new division may be money well spent because it solves a major problem for the parents of non-DA and ECNL kids ... exposure and will ultimately save those parents their hard earned cash, but we will lose Hilton and Marriott points.


Exposure? I’m assuming you mean Surf Cup. Or do you mean weekly exposure At Silverlakes? Both will account for little to none.


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## mkg68 (Feb 6, 2018)

I like the idea but hate the idea of Silverlakes in the summer!


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## SoccerFan4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

IMO, this can work as long as they can recruit a couple of other large clubs from CSL to SCDSL.    Yes it's a money making opportunity but nothing is free in this world. It's all about making money so don't use money as a complaint against this idea.

The question comes down to how flexible will they be if the temperate gets so hot in Norco.  Could they have a backup location near the coast when the weather gets over 100 degrees.


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## MWN (Feb 6, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN, good summary...perhaps I am missing something but is this essentially the Champions Division moved to Silverlakes and paired with financial perks ?? Or will the two co-exist??


Taking a step back, for those elite players that don't have the financial means to play in a regional league like the ECNL or NPL (costs of travel to New Mexico, Arizona, Northern California, Nevada, etc.) AND don't play in the DA, getting college coach exposure is difficult and only occurs at showcases.  College coaches want to see (1) prospects on good teams play against other good teams; and (2) everything occur at one venue.  The Champions division doesn't do this because the teams are still required to secure their home fields.  This Discovery division fulfills this need/desire.

Based on the article, the two will co-exist, but the cream of the crop from the Champions division would leave and the league would attempt to pull in some ECNL, CSL and SDDA teams.  What we have now is teams that think they can play at a high level, but don't want to leave SoCal have CalSouth's CRL, which is basically an "extra league" on top of CSL and SCDSL  Clubs without DA status or ECNL teams (big money/costs to parents) that don't get into CRL are left with no options, but to beat up on the lesser competition.  The DPL (girls) would find this league attractive.

The ultimate impact to the Champions division is really dependent upon whether the new division is successful in pulling from the DPL, ECNL/EGSL and NPL.


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## uburoi (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Ok, assuming you are correct that its purely a money play to keep teams in the league and collect dollars.  How is this different from any other league?  Moreover, its looks like SCDSL has one-upped the competition for those dollars.  In light of the fact that all this soccer costs us parents money and playing in Regional leagues is even more expensive because we have to spend big bucks traveling to Arizona and Nevada and New Mexico, etc..  Seems like this new division may be money well spent because it solves a major problem for the parents of non-DA and ECNL kids ... exposure and will ultimately save those parents their hard earned cash, but we will lose Hilton and Marriott points.


The scdsl should be asking questions like, how can I protect children and families? Can we schedule games in hotter months in the mornings and evenings and not during peak heat hours. What fields have lights? Do we need more $ for those fields? Ok let’s sell that instead of ignoring the obvious. Kids died last year during excessively hot days and coaches died in a traffic accident. The scdsl is not an elite competitive league. It’s McDonalds and not Shake Shack.


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## broshark (Feb 6, 2018)

who died playing at Norco last year?  

I hear they play soccer in Arizona.  Does their league only run in December?


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## Mystery Train (Feb 6, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN, good summary...perhaps I am missing something but is this essentially the Champions Division moved to Silverlakes and paired with financial perks ?? Or will the two co-exist??


I was wondering the same thing.  My assumption is that this replaces Champions division brackets?  Which is good because the Champions/Europa Flight 1 thing was clumsy and nobody seemed to understand how the playoff seeding worked.  

Other thoughts:
Is this a play to get DPL clubs to move to SCDSL and scuttle the DPL league entirely?  If I had a kid on a DPL team and had to go to Arizona this fall during the school year for games, I'd be hoping for this sort of set up instead.  Seems like the competition leveling would be more consistent based on the criteria listed.   Some of those DPL games looked very lopsided.  

...Or is this just desperate "me-too marketing" with no larger strategic vision? 

I'm not a fan of Silverlakes in Sept & October (which is when most of the games are played for olders).  That is undoubtedly the hottest stretch of weeks in the hottest soccer complex in SoCal.  

Every game is a home game for Legends.  How nice for them.   

The rest of the structure seems pretty reasonable.


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## GKDad65 (Feb 6, 2018)

Every time we get a new league we're all so excited because, "This time it will be different, this time we know what to do better..."
But, it's just another league, just like all the rest.  Another venue to suck up that cash flow.
We have such a great track record so far, let's keep it up.

Who are you watching in the World Cup?


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## soccerobserver (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Taking a step back, for those elite players that don't have the financial means to play in a regional league like the ECNL or NPL (costs of travel to New Mexico, Arizona, Northern California, Nevada, etc.) AND don't play in the DA, getting college coach exposure is difficult and only occurs at showcases.  College coaches want to see (1) prospects on good teams play against other good teams; and (2) everything occur at one venue.  The Champions division doesn't do this because the teams are still required to secure their home fields.  This Discovery division fulfills this need/desire.
> 
> Based on the article, the two will co-exist, but the cream of the crop from the Champions division would leave and the league would attempt to pull in some ECNL, CSL and SDDA teams.  What we have now is teams that think they can play at a high level, but don't want to leave SoCal have CalSouth's CRL, which is basically an "extra league" on top of CSL and SCDSL  Clubs without DA status or ECNL teams (big money/costs to parents) that don't get into CRL are left with no options, but to beat up on the lesser competition.  The DPL (girls) would find this league attractive.
> 
> The ultimate impact to the Champions division is really dependent upon whether the new division is successful in pulling from the DPL, ECNL/EGSL and NPL.


Thanks MWN...I have another quick question after re-read the following in the link about the new Division:

"Rolling out for the 2018 season and including birth years 2005 and older, teams from SCDSL member clubs, will apply during open enrollment for this division. A review committee that is assembled of directors, selected by their peers, that are knowledgeable on the boys or girls teams will review the applications and will select the 12 best teams in each of these older birth year"

This seems to say that the teams for the new Division will come from SCDSL...or excluding teams not already in SCDSL...so no CSL or SDDA teams...am I reading this correctly? If so, then I am guessing the new Division will be comprised of Champions group teams- except the ones that do not apply- plus the next best Europa level teams from SCDSL...am I getting that about right?


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> the cream of the crop from the Champions division would leave and the league would attempt to pull in some ECNL, CSL and SDDA teams.  The DPL (girls) would find this league attractive.
> 
> The ultimate impact to the Champions division is really dependent upon whether the new division is successful in pulling from the DPL, ECNL/EGSL and NPL.


Agree.

The only potential true benefit of this league is if they could pull all of the best teams from DPL and CSL (assuming ECNL stays put).  Otherwise it's the Champions division with added bells and whistles.  Everything that they are doing could be done with the existing Champions division.  It's a marketing scheme, and yes we know this is a business, but if you don't pull in any new clubs from CSL or DPL ( teams), then it is the same teams that were going to be in Champions anyway, playing against each other at Silverlakes instead of their home fields.  In terms of "development" there is no change whatsoever.  In terms of recruiting, many of these things could have been done without creating a new league.  I'm skeptical that college coaches will go to Silverlakes to catch regular season games.


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## mirage (Feb 6, 2018)

I am quite surprised with the reaction of most of you guys....

Nowhere did I read that its mutually exclusive.  In other words, its just another division within SCDSL.  Those SCDSL clubs with teams in DA, and ECNL probably will remain as is and their top flight 1 team will go into the new division.  So think about it as "Champions Division" relabeled and with more perks for the winners.  Furthermore, NPL and CRL teams are one of the Flight 1 teams anyway so they'll just keep on doing both.

As for CSL, its the same, the Premier teams will continue to do both CRL/NPL and league.  There is no new league, just a new division within.

Personally, I think giving kids more exposure, wherever its from, towards college coaches is a good thing.  There are lots of college out there that do not recruit DA players because they cannot offer the kind of scholarship most DA players are expecting.  These may not be Ivys or big major conference schools but there are plenty of excellent schools out there.

Let your knee jerk settle down and step back a bit.  It won't make much difference in how the game is played by the kids in the fall.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

Here are my thoughts.   This looks like SCDSL's answer to DPL.   If they can attract the big clubs back out of DPL then they might have something.  In DPL only about 1/2 of the teams had to travel to Arizona for a game and I would much rather do that and have 1/2 of my league games at home than have to travel to Silverlakes every weekend (which would take more time in total and traffic sucks getting to and from there).   Having all of the games at Silverlakes does nothing other than allow Legends to scout players.   No coaches are coming to watch league play.  They have their own season games to worry about at that time.  Its hotter than hell in Norco this also sounds bad compared to many league games that end up being played closer to the ocean.  Paying for parking every game would suck.   Really the only potential advantage is the $1400 showcase fees paid but that is only for the top two teams.   Who ever wins was probably already getting it Surf if they didn't want to do the Silverlakes showcase.  This might just end up being the same endless collection of Slammers teams all just playing at one venue.


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## JJP (Feb 6, 2018)

The biggest problem right now for SoCal soccer is talent is split between 3 leagues and all the leagues are diluted.  DA plainly intends to go its own way.  For SCDSL and CSL to compete with DA, this new league is a good first step EXCEPT it needs to do 3 more things:

1.   CSL and SCDSL should merge their top divisions into this league, then all the top non-DA teams can compete vs each other.

2.  Relegation for bottom teams, promotion for top teams in the next division below.

3.  Screw Norco.  Have the games in Great Park, that’s more central.  Let the SD teams play each other in SD.  Have one weekend of games in SD.  One SD trip for LA and OC teams is not so bad.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

3. Screw Norco. Have the games in Great Park, that’s more central. Let the SD teams play each other in SD. Have one weekend of games in SD. One SD trip for LA and OC teams is not so bad.

Unless you live in LA County or Ventura County or Santa Barbara County then those options suck just as much as Norco.


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## JJP (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Unless you live in LA County or Ventura County or Santa Barbara County then those options suck just as much as Norco.


Isn’t Great Park easier for Orange County and San Diego County residents?  Norco is better only for Riverside and San Bernardino.


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## mirage (Feb 6, 2018)

You guys are so focused on the girls side only that you cannot see beyond it.

Boys side has had DA for 10 years and SCDSL exist not just for the girls.  It is not their version of DPL, as that's girls only league.  The boys side has had 3 leagues, ever since SCDSL was formed 5~6 years ago.  Not a big deal.

Try not to over think it...


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

mirage said:


> I am quite surprised with the reaction of most of you guys....
> 
> Nowhere did I read that its mutually exclusive.  In other words, its just another division within SCDSL.  Those SCDSL clubs with teams in DA, and ECNL probably will remain as is and their top flight 1 team will go into the new division.  So think about it as "Champions Division" relabeled and with more perks for the winners.  Furthermore, NPL and CRL teams are one of the Flight 1 teams anyway so they'll just keep on doing both..


The point is you didn’t have to create a new “division” to do all of this.  You could have kept the Champions division and added all the rest.  
And full disclosure, my dd’s team may end up playing in this division.  However, we know the real reason for this new division. . .


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Here are my thoughts.   This looks like SCDSL's answer to DPL.


Simi, I was waiting for you, I knew you’d chime in and guess what, you are absolutely correct.  This is absolutely SCDSL’s answer to DPL. But if it’s the same teams playing each other, then it’s the same old show.


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## El Clasico (Feb 6, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN, good summary...perhaps I am missing something but is this essentially the Champions Division moved to Silverlakes and paired with financial perks ?? Or will the two co-exist??


Translation: More expensive and more control over athletes.

Did they forget to mention...
Silverlakes is a great complex to watch TV and drink a beer while the kids play.
Too windy for good soccer
Too hot in summer and fall
Pay to park every weekend
Team fees will likely be substantially higher as all those "free" perks have to now be included in the team registration fee.


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> The biggest problem right now for SoCal soccer is talent is split between 3 leagues and all the leagues are diluted.
> 
> 1.   CSL and SCDSL should merge their top divisions into this league


Add DPL and it would be even better.  Even then, it would still not compete with DA.  If you added the ECNL teams then it would be a super strong number two league next to DA.


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## boomer (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> Because the SCDSL are just administrators. They have no interest in improvements, just more opportunities to make money. Instead of making soccer more accessible and more local, they are increasing inconvenience, costs, frustration and the well being of players. The more parents drive and pay, the more frustrated they become and the more pressure it puts on players. And $1400 is the cost of one tournament, maybe $50 a player. That’s one round trip to Silverlake including gas and parking fee. Really?


Really. As opposed to multiple round-trips to San Diego, San Bernardino, Santa Barbara, and where ever else you will be required to play on any given weekend in SCDSL and/or CSL as it currently stands? What's the difference in terms of cost? Minimal, if any. But really, the costs of all of this and all other club soccer in SoCal is another matter.

I definitely agree that club soccer is a massive money grab and there are plenty of under-served families. And I know for a fact that there is talent being overlooked because of the limited access that the current pay-to-play culture brings, but still I see the value in terms of scheduling consistency and quality of play a set-up like this should bring. Baring burning it all down and starting over with some of that $150M US Soccer is sitting on, this division is a good development for the club community.

If you can't see that, you're likely an "all-or-nothing" guy. No band-aids, no improvements, just wholesale change of culture or don't bother.


----------



## broshark (Feb 6, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Add DPL and it would be even better.  Even then, it would still not compete with DA.  If you added the ECNL teams then it would be a super strong number two league next to DA.


DA's not supposed to compete with local competition.  It's a feeder for the US teams.  They shouldn't be in the discussion.  And ECNL has so few teams in SoCal that it doesn't really matter.  Top SCDSL teams can still play them at Surf Cup etc. to test their mettle.


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## mirage (Feb 6, 2018)

Justafan said:


> The point is you didn’t have to create a new “division” to do all of this.  You could have kept the Champions division and added all the rest.
> And full disclosure, my dd’s team may end up playing in this division.  However, we know the real reason for this new division. . .


They could not because there is promotion and demotion into and out of the new division.  Its supposed to be more competitive with less emphasis on the development.  It will only exist for the olders.


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

mirage said:


> They could not because there is promotion and demotion into and out of the new division.


There is promotion and demotion in SCDSL, although it’s not as formal as CSL.  And why couldn’t you have simply added the new promotion/demotion element to Champions division?


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## tylerdurden (Feb 6, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN, good summary...perhaps I am missing something but is this essentially the Champions Division moved to Silverlakes and paired with financial perks ?? Or will the two co-exist??


Sounds like it to me. It appears to me that they'll just move most of the Champion teams into the new league/bracket. Having everyone at Silverlakes is like what CSL is doing with Premier by having 90% of the games in San Bernardino. Why couldn't they just have applied these changes to the Champion bracket?  Did they really need another bracket to water things down?

I guess this is a way to add relegation to their league but isn't that what they were trying to move away from in the first place?


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## Surfref (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Ok, assuming you are correct that its purely a money play to keep teams in the league and collect dollars.  How is this different from any other league?  Moreover, its looks like SCDSL has one-upped the competition for those dollars.  In light of the fact that all this soccer costs us parents money and playing in Regional leagues is even more expensive because we have to spend big bucks traveling to Arizona and Nevada and New Mexico, etc..  Seems like this new division may be money well spent because it solves a major problem for the parents of non-DA and ECNL kids ... exposure and will ultimately save those parents their hard earned cash, but we will lose Hilton and Marriott points.


You can always drive to Norco/Corona the evening before the game and stay at a Hilton or Marriott branded hotel.  I just solved the hotel points problem.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

Norco is also close for north Orange County teams.   They made a big investment so Norco is staying for a long time.  Great Park would be a great place but not sure scdsl will benefit. 

Just have the games in the mornings from 8 to 12 or after 6pm.   It sucks but Norco will remain the main place for a long time.   Heck I had to travel to Ryan park this weekend for a state cup and it sucked!!! I will take Norco over Ryan park or Temecula or Lancaster or San bernandino.  

It should be: Norco, Oceanside, Lancaster for north la teams and hoping great park but doubt it.


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> DA plainly intends to go its own way.  For SCDSL and CSL to compete with DA, this new league is a good first step EXCEPT it needs to do 3 more things:
> 
> 1.   CSL and SCDSL should merge their top divisions into this league, then all the top non-DA teams can compete vs each other.





broshark said:


> DA's not supposed to compete with local competition.  It's a feeder for the US teams.  They shouldn't be in the discussion.  And ECNL has so few teams in SoCal that it doesn't really matter.  Top SCDSL teams can still play them at Surf Cup etc. to test their mettle.


Relax BRO, I know DA is the top league (at least 2003 and younger).  That's what I was trying to tell JJP.  As for my ECNL statement, wouldn't you agree that this new division would be even stronger and better (steel sharpening steel) if the ECNL teams were also involved?  That was my point.  

Now with respect to your condescending tone, a little much.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Feb 6, 2018)

first glance it just splits up the talent more. Already fighting about leagues/divisions. Then you add Surf. Then you add Silverlakes. Anyone living in Mid/South OC  and south isnt going to be happy. This works for big clubs who give certain teams to a handful of coaches and those are the only team levels they coach. Most coaches who have multiple teams spread across multiple flights & other coaching commitments wont place their teams in it.


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## mirage (Feb 6, 2018)

Justafan said:


> There is promotion and demotion in SCDSL, although it’s not as formal as CSL.  And why couldn’t you have simply added the new promotion/demotion element to Champions division?


There is no promotion and relegation in SCDSL.  That was one of the tenet when the league was set up originally.  One of my kids played in the inaugural year of SCDSL and I clearly recall the debate here in the old forum people arguing SCDSL vs CSL.  My younger kid plays for SCDSL club now and has for several years.  

Placement into Champion division is decided by DOCs and is self nominated.  There is no set criteria, like in CSL.  For SCDSL to say that there is promotion and relegation would go directly against the charter and what they stand for so its cleaner and easier to set up a new dedicated division as a separate thing.

Don't know what your issue with SCDSL is and I don't care, really.  All I'm saying is that its not a big deal that they are doing this.  At least it will go back to having a real Flight 1 level, like the very first year when Flight 1 consisted of 10~12 teams, and not 40 like is now.  Someone mentioned earlier comparing to Premier - I agree.


----------



## timbuck (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> Exposure? I’m assuming you mean Surf Cup. Or do you mean weekly exposure At Silverlakes? Both will account for little to none.


I think he means "Exposure to the burning sun of Norco."


----------



## mirage (Feb 6, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> first glance it just splits up the talent more....


How is this the case?  The new division will be filled with existing flight 1 teams, mostly from the Champions division.  Its not a new league with whole new set of teams....


----------



## Kicker4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

Works best if DPL goes away and those teams move into this division. Could create a better environment for a lot of the soon to be displaced players looking for high level competition that aren’t geographically near ECNL Clubs. 

You’ll never get ECNL teams to switch....why would they leave the ECNL league?


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## JJP (Feb 6, 2018)

broshark said:


> DA's not supposed to compete with local competition.  It's a feeder for the US teams.  They shouldn't be in the discussion.  And ECNL has so few teams in SoCal that it doesn't really matter.  Top SCDSL teams can still play them at Surf Cup etc. to test their mettle.


Yea I agree DA doesn’t compete directly with CSL and SCDSL, but they all compete for talent.  DA is great but the travel for games is ridiculous.  CSL, SCDSL and all the other local leagues can compete with DA for talent by offering games vs. quality local teams with less travel, I think that’s a winning idea, and the way to do that would be to merge the top division in each league.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Works best if DPL goes away and those teams move into this division. Could create a better environment for a lot of the soon to be displaced players looking for high level competition that aren’t geographically near ECNL Clubs.
> 
> You’ll never get ECNL teams to switch....why would they leave the ECNL league?


Speaking from the DPL standpoint it would make no sense to join this league.  We play the 2nd teams at some very good clubs and we don't have to drive to Silverlakes every weekend.  Parking is free.  We already video the games.  1/2 the games are at home and many of the the away games are against teams located closer to the ocean.  Also there are 10 DPL teams including the Arizona team.  Only 12 teams will be in this new bracket.


----------



## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> Yea I agree DA doesn’t compete directly with CSL and SCDSL, but they all compete for talent.  DA is great but the travel for games is ridiculous.  CSL, SCDSL and all the other local leagues can compete with DA for talent by offering games vs. quality local teams with less travel, I think that’s a winning idea, and the way to do that would be to merge the top division in each league.


Whats ridiculous is the amount of coaches that attended the DA Florida Showcase.  The amount of attention DA teams are getting from college coaches is insane.  Unless SCDSL or other local leagues can replicate this attention they will never be able to come close to drawing the talent to compete with the DA.  The same goes for the local leagues competing against ECNL.


----------



## broshark (Feb 6, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Relax BRO, I know DA is the top league (at least 2003 and younger).  That's what I was trying to tell JJP.  As for my ECNL statement, wouldn't you agree that this new division would be even stronger and better (steel sharpening steel) if the ECNL teams were also involved?  That was my point.
> 
> Now with respect to your condescending tone, a little much.


If you look back to page 1, I said the top 4 teams should play the top 4 DPL teams and the top 4 from there should play the top 4 ECNL teams in SoCal at each age group.  So we're not saying anything different - I just didn't call for the other leagues to disband to make it happen.  Are you not justafan of mine?


----------



## ChipShot (Feb 6, 2018)

Isn't this just CRL as a Fall league?


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## Kicker4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Speaking from the DPL standpoint it would make no sense to join this league.  We play the 2nd teams at some very good clubs and we don't have to drive to Silverlakes every weekend.  Parking is free.  We already video the games.  1/2 the games are at home and many of the the away games are against teams located closer to the ocean.  Also there are 10 DPL teams including the Arizona team.  Only 12 teams will be in this new bracket.


From a pure competition standpoint you are wrong.  Two of our DPL Teams toughest competition came in CRL and national league.  Teens toughest competition came in CRL and National League. 

From an economic, time and travel  I would agree with you.


----------



## Josep (Feb 6, 2018)

The land grab for great park is a mighty one.  Surf has their hands on it now.  It isn’t that easy to grab fields there.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> From a pure competition standpoint you are wrong.  Two of our DPL Teams toughest competition came in CRL and national league.  Teens toughest competition came in CRL and National League.
> 
> From an economic, time and travel  I would agree with you.


Don't understand your point.  So what that two of YOUR teams toughest competitions came outside of DPL?  I made no reference to your team.  In fact I made no reference to the competition in DPL other than the league consists of the 2nd teams at some good clubs which is actually a factual statement.


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## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

broshark said:


> If you look back to page 1, I said the top 4 teams should play the top 4 DPL teams and the top 4 from there should play the top 4 ECNL teams in SoCal at each age group.  So we're not saying anything different - I just didn't call for the other leagues to disband to make it happen.  Are you not justafan of mine?


Agree with everything you say here, you just sounded mean.


----------



## Justafan (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Speaking from the DPL standpoint it would make no sense to join this league. . . Also there are 10 DPL teams including the Arizona team.  Only 12 teams will be in this new bracket.


You know at first I got excited about the possibility of DPL also joining this "division."  After all, its most of the same clubs.  However, as you point out, there are 10 DPL teams and only 12 spots, so I don't think they will take the chance that some DPL teams would not make the 12 team cut.  Oh well, wishful thinking.


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## Kicker4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Don't understand your point.  So what that two of YOUR teams toughest competitions came outside of DPL?  I made no reference to your team.  In fact I made no reference to the competition in DPL other than the league consists of the 2nd teams at some good clubs which is actually a factual statement.


No but your agreement consisted of the inference that DPL teams are better than those in SCDSL Champions or Flight 1 whatever you want to call it. You play the #2 teams at DA Clubs, that’s a fact but there are many Top Teams at Affiliate Clubs and smaller clubs that are better than most of those #2 Teams.  Not knocking DPL Teams or the experience many have had so far.

So what is my point....That an Open League that aims to consolidating some of the talent and create an environment doesn’t sound all that bad. Including those DPL teams would only benefit them and the league if you consider the level of play from top to bottom.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 6, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> No but your agreement consisted of the inference that DPL teams are better than those in SCDSL Champions or Flight 1 whatever you want to call it. You play the #2 teams at DA Clubs, that’s a fact but there are many Top Teams at Affiliate Clubs and smaller clubs that are better than most of those #2 Teams.  Not knocking DPL Teams or the experience many have had so far.
> 
> So what is my point....That an Open League that aims to consolidating some of the talent and create an environment doesn’t sound all that bad. Including those DPL teams would only benefit them and the league of You consider the level of play from top to bottom.


You are reading my statement from your own bias.  I did not infer DPL was better in my statement.  As you agree I just stated a fact the DPL plays the 2nd teams at some good clubs.  That doesn’t mean other good clubs don’t exist. It doesn’t mean that DPL is better.  I think we can all agree Beach, Legends, LA Galaxy SD, Eagles, Pateadores, Real SoCal, ... are good clubs.  So stop trying to sell your agenda.  You sound like you have an inferiority complex bragging that their are MANY affiliated teams and smaller clubs with teams better than most of those teams and trying to read too much into what I wrote. 

How does DPL teams benefit? There is only 12 spots and 9 SoCal DPL teams.


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## Kicker4Life (Feb 6, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> You are reading my statement from your own bias.  I did not infer DPL was better in my statement.  As you agree I just stated a fact the DPL plays the 2nd teams at some good clubs.  That doesn’t mean other good clubs don’t exist. It doesn’t mean that DPL is better.  I think we can all agree Beach, Legends, LA Galaxy SD, Eagles, Pateadores, Real SoCal, ... are good clubs.  So stop trying to sell your agenda.  You sound like you have an inferiority complex bragging that their are MANY affiliated teams and smaller clubs with teams better than most of those teams and trying to read too much into what I wrote.
> 
> How does DPL teams benefit? There is only 12 spots and 9 SoCal DPL teams.


What bias would that be?


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Feb 6, 2018)

mirage said:


> How is this the case?  The new division will be filled with existing flight 1 teams, mostly from the Champions division.  Its not a new league with whole new set of teams....


Its an elitist division. SCDSL basically saying league play as is isnt good by doing this or a way to make more money. Since SCDSL has no pro/rel how will they approve 12 or whatever teams? So what happens to a team that isnt performing well? What if other teams want in? Theyll add teams. More watering down will occur. You pluck good teams out and the clubs coming in will fill old spots with kids who shouldnt be playing flight 1. As you said, already many subpar teams playing. Will cause more issues than whatever issue they feel this solves. Already avenues for good play. Maybe showcases should be swapped out for mini-tournaments with teams slotted for better competition. Teams playing at high level can get enough competition with the loads of tournaments. This is just doing something for sake of doing it.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> Yea I agree DA doesn’t compete directly with CSL and SCDSL, but they all compete for talent.  DA is great but the travel for games is ridiculous.  CSL, SCDSL and all the other local leagues can compete with DA for talent by offering games vs. quality local teams with less travel, I think that’s a winning idea, and the way to do that would be to merge the top division in each league.


More dissection isnt the answer. Removing quality teams from what exists now dilutes the system. If I were all powerful Id merge all the leagues under one Cal South umbrella/league - getting kids in one giant playing pool. Then we could progress and develop kids better - and maybe kids could have fun as well.


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## INFAMEE (Feb 6, 2018)

uburoi said:


> You are doing a great job as the spokesperson for the SCDSL. The SCDSL only cares about money and not the development of players. That’s why kids leave for other leagues. Restating what you already said doesn’t change this proposition.


MWN's kid plays for Arsenal SCDSL the shittiest club possible and most expensive. Makes perfect sense.


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> More dissection isnt the answer. Removing quality teams from what exists now dilutes the system. If I were all powerful Id merge all the leagues under one Cal South umbrella/league - getting kids in one giant playing pool. Then we could progress and develop kids better - and maybe kids could have fun as well.


Aren’t we saying the same thing using different words?

Me:  take the top teams in each league and put them in one division
You: merge all the leagues and put the top teams in the top division

Either way, the best non DA players end up playing vs. each other.


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Whats ridiculous is the amount of coaches that attended the DA Florida Showcase.  The amount of attention DA teams are getting from college coaches is insane.  Unless SCDSL or other local leagues can replicate this attention they will never be able to come close to drawing the talent to compete with the DA.  The same goes for the local leagues competing against ECNL.


DA will always get more attention because most of the very few elite players are in DA.


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## Soccer43 (Feb 7, 2018)

broshark said:


> who died playing at Norco last year?
> 
> I hear they play soccer in Arizona.  Does their league only run in December?


I don't know of any that died but I do know of players that collapsed on the field from the heat and were taken by ambulance to the hospital.


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## Soccer43 (Feb 7, 2018)

How is this new creation any different from the Premier Division of CSL?  Again, it seems to be SCDSL's version of CSL's Premier teams.  I like the idea of having a CRL type structure where the top teams from CSL, SCDSL, DPL, and ECNL play each other in a fall league


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## Dos Equis (Feb 7, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> How is this new creation any different from the Premier Division of CSL?  Again, it seems to be SCDSL's version of CSL's Premier teams.  I like the idea of having a CRL type structure where the top teams from CSL, SCDSL, DPL, and ECNL play each other in a fall league


That difference is simple -- the powers that be who control this league (club DOC's), will be able to assure that, no matter how poorly their teams perform, they are guaranteed entry every season.  In CSL Premier, results matter. There are always poiltics, and Premier's bylaws state it is an "invitation" league, but invitations work on the basis of promotion/relegation around 96% of the time.  

Regardless of the committees they form or their stated mission, SCDSL history has shown that politics and relationships are the driving factor for scheduling and "bracketing."   There should not be an expectation that this league will be different.

Back in 2006, there existed a league for the best boys and girls in Socal to play against each other in the fall, and it was indeed called CSL Premier. The rest is history, and no amount of wishing is likely to unscramble the omelet of the present.


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## espola (Feb 7, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> That difference is simple -- the powers that be who control this league (club DOC's), will be able to assure that, no matter how poorly their teams perform, they are guaranteed entry every season.  In CSL Premier, results matter. There are always poiltics, and Premier's bylaws state it is an "invitation" league, but invitations work on the basis of promotion/relegation around 96% of the time.
> 
> Regardless of the committees they form or their stated mission, SCDSL history has shown that politics and relationships are the driving factor for scheduling and "bracketing."   There should not be an expectation that this league will be different.
> 
> Back in 2006, there existed a league for the best boys and girls in Socal to play against each other in the fall, and it was indeed called CSL Premier. The rest is history, and no amount of wishing is likely to unscramble the omelet of the present.


Almost right - it was difficult for new teams to break into CSL Premier unless they were bringing a dozen or more other teams from their club who were willing to play in CSL  lower divisions all over the area, with no home games.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Feb 7, 2018)

Is this a Pre-Academy Discovery League?


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## MWN (Feb 7, 2018)

espola said:


> Almost right - it was difficult for new teams to break into CSL Premier unless they were bringing a dozen or more other teams from their club who were willing to play in CSL  lower divisions all over the area, with no home games.


That and team continuity would cause teams to drop back down to bronze.  The year my son played in CSL Bronze we had 3 teams that destroyed the bracket: 1 was a Silver team the previous year that was going to move to Gold, but lost too many players to keep continuity (although they retained all their stars), the other two teams were brand new to the league and legitimate Silver to Silver-Elite Teams (1 took the Presidents Cup championship ... skipped Governors altogether and a bronze team won Presidents).  CSL's relegation/promotion model is/was broken when it comes to new teams or continuity.  These flaws are one of the factors leading to the creation of the SCDSL.

One element that many do not appreciate is that there are competitive leagues trying really hard to break into the SoCal market, which up to this point has been controlled by two US Soccer affiliates (US Youth Soccer/Cal South and AYSO).  The club scene is almost entirely dominated by Cal South, with the only legitimate incursion being US Club Soccer's ECNL, which recently expanded to boys.

We now have at least two leagues actively soliciting clubs that I know about:

US Club Soccer's - National Premiere League (has a footprint for spring, but is trying to expand into fall).
United Soccer League's (Div. II) - Super Y League (its youth league that operates on the east coast) and affiliated with the second level professional division.
As others have pointed out, the landscape has evolved and continues to change with competitive leagues to CSL, SCDSL and Presidio/SDDA making a push for the better teams unattached to the DA or ECNL.  This necessarily requires the leagues to do some soul searching and ask themselves what can we do better to serve our constituents.

This "discovery division" is that response and its features are a defensive maneuver to the leagues trying to breach the SoCal market, the ECNL (especially the new boys division - http://www.boysecnl.com/southwest-conference/) and the DPL, which is nothing more than a statement to the SoCal community that SCDSL top teams will now play in a new division called "discovery" that has some of these cool new features, so you clubs in the SDDA and CSL and those SCDSL teams thinking of jumping to US Club, bring your teams to SCDSL and come play in the Discovery Division (if you qualify).


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## espola (Feb 7, 2018)

MWN said:


> That and team continuity would cause teams to drop back down to bronze.  The year my son played in CSL Bronze we had 3 teams that destroyed the bracket: 1 was a Silver team the previous year that was going to move to Gold, but lost too many players to keep continuity (although they retained all their stars), the other two teams were brand new to the league and legitimate Silver to Silver-Elite Teams (1 took the Presidents Cup championship ... skipped Governors altogether and a bronze team won Presidents).  CSL's relegation/promotion model is/was broken when it comes to new teams or continuity.  These flaws are one of the factors leading to the creation of the SCDSL.
> 
> One element that many do not appreciate is that there are competitive leagues trying really hard to break into the SoCal market, which up to this point has been controlled by two US Soccer affiliates (US Youth Soccer/Cal South and AYSO).  The club scene is almost entirely dominated by Cal South, with the only legitimate incursion being US Club Soccer's ECNL, which recently expanded to boys.
> 
> ...


Don't forget USL's Super-Y League --

http://www.sylsoccer.com/news_article/show/879512?referrer_id=2242489


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## MWN (Feb 7, 2018)

espola said:


> Don't forget USL's Super-Y League --
> 
> http://www.sylsoccer.com/news_article/show/879512?referrer_id=2242489


I didn't, its point two above.


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## Desert Hound (Feb 7, 2018)

broshark said:


> who died playing at Norco last year?
> 
> I hear they play soccer in Arizona.  Does their league only run in December?


We even start training in August. It is a bit warm. But I tell you what, when us parents sit in the shade and have a drink I think we all survive just nicely. We make comments every now and then how the kids look a bit sweaty...but then we laugh and have another drink.


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## espola (Feb 7, 2018)

MWN said:


> I didn't, its point two above.


I skimmed right over that without it registering - my error.

Our club in Poway had a team that competed in the Super-20 League for a few years.  They had a much firmer hand about how to run a league, even organizing a "North American Championship" every year.


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## El Clasico (Feb 7, 2018)

espola said:


> Almost right - it was difficult for new teams to break into CSL Premier unless they were bringing a dozen or more other teams from their club who were willing to play in CSL  lower divisions all over the area, with no home games.


Does this mean that SCDSL will allow a club to register teams in the Discovery league without having to bring all their teams over to "play in the lower divisions"? Or is it the same thing?


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 7, 2018)

JJP said:


> Aren’t we saying the same thing using different words?
> 
> Me:  take the top teams in each league and put them in one division
> You: merge all the leagues and put the top teams in the top division
> ...


yes in a sense. think its the quickest way to try an implement something that gets leagues playing each other. im not a fan of limiting things to just one group. this wouldnt strengthen play from top to bottom in the leagues. for the interim, maybe this could be a first step. i doubt it would happen considering the politics and difference in philosophies involved. i talked to some flight1 coaches and felt as I did - promotes elitism.  asked who gets in? who doesnt? brought up the point, as I did, no pro/rel  in SCDS: so teams that dont perform well will always be included since they cant drop out - not like teams dont ever blow up. most said traveling to Norco every week isnt optimal since most dont solely coach the 1 or 2 elite teams in their clubs - nor do they want to. Bigger clubs have certain coaches training a couple top tier teams and dont deal with lower flights or even flight1 teams. Smaller clubs arent set up this way and coaches train all levels. Traveling would limit ability to coach more than a couple teams - with them for sure missing other team games. One coach has an entire age group (three teams) and has a team that would  qualify for the circuit - but getting out to Norco would guarantee he would miss at least one game a week. He would have to drop a team and co-manage the age group. Not all clubs can afford to keep the coach's pay the same while picking up the cost of another coach training the team he dropped. From those who dont manage, coach or do any admin work, sounds like a decent idea. Some teams have kids who are on scholarship, one coach had at least 4 kids on scholarship and extra cost has to come from somewhere. Im sure some clubs will just hike the fees up and market it as some type of pre/reserve/almost there Academy. From admin side, causes a host of issues - some of it due to money. Which adds more to the have vs have-not system. Then we start getting into discussion of trying to field the best teams/talent (this after all is to promote development right?) or is this just another animal for clubs to make $


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 7, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Does this mean that SCDSL will allow a club to register teams in the Discovery league without having to bring all their teams over to "play in the lower divisions"? Or is it the same thing?


im sure other leagues would be fine with top teams leaving to play in another league. also, im sure SCDSL wants to promote teams they have within their own league. I dont see teams from outside coming in. Could be incorrect but looks like SCDSL teams only.


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## espola (Feb 7, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Does this mean that SCDSL will allow a club to register teams in the Discovery league without having to bring all their teams over to "play in the lower divisions"? Or is it the same thing?


Good question. 

The story we got from CSL is that if they let our team into Premier, that would mean not admitting a team that dozens of teams playing CSL lower divisions, so we would have to move in that direction.


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> yes in a sense. think its the quickest way to try an implement something that gets leagues playing each other. im not a fan of limiting things to just one group. this wouldnt strengthen play from top to bottom in the leagues. for the interim, maybe this could be a first step. i doubt it would happen considering the politics and difference in philosophies involved. i talked to some flight1 coaches and felt as I did - promotes elitism.  asked who gets in? who doesnt? brought up the point, as I did, no pro/rel  in SCDS: so teams that dont perform well will always be included since they cant drop out - not like teams dont ever blow up. most said traveling to Norco every week isnt optimal since most dont solely coach the 1 or 2 elite teams in their clubs - nor do they where want to.


I can’t see combined leagues happening due to politics.  Even getting CSL and SCDSL to participate  in one combined top division would be difficult, but IMO it just has to be done to stop the dilution of talent.  I think combined divisions or leagues in lower flights is not important because there’s no talent to dilute, you can find mediocre bronze teams everywhere.

The first couple of years there’s going to be teams that don’t belong but that’s why I said there has to be promotion/relegation, so that worst teams get dropped and deserving teams that didn’t get in at the initial round get a shot.

The smaller teams just have to appoint an elite team coach who trains 2 or 3 elite teams in different age groups, so he can do one trip for all his teams.


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## Simisoccerfan (Feb 7, 2018)

Pipe dream


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

JJP said:


> I can’t see combined leagues happening due to politics.  Even getting CSL and SCDSL to participate  in one combined top division would be difficult, but IMO it just has to be done to stop the dilution of talent.  I think combined divisions or leagues in lower flights is not important because there’s no talent to dilute, you can find mediocre bronze teams everywhere.
> 
> The first couple of years there’s going to be teams that don’t belong but that’s why I said there has to be promotion/relegation, so that worst teams get dropped and deserving teams that didn’t get in at the initial round get a shot.
> 
> The smaller teams just have to appoint an elite team coach who trains 2 or 3 elite teams in different age groups, so he can do one trip for all his teams.


the attitude most people take is what you expressed - a belief talent below flight 1 level isnt important. which i and many dont feel is true. 

A) kids dont  become upper level talent through wishing. They need to be developed. focus is on fastest and strongest kids. you see this all the way up to sr usnmt. its a philosophy that comes all the way from the top to the bottom levels. This is why we are so far behind in soccer compared to most of the world.

B) The Elite team coaching staff ties into the same belief system. Talk to most of these coaches and its almost like its beneath them to even touch even a non DA or ECNL or Premier team. You can google the statistics (or search twitter) and see where kids who are on the National teams come from -  a handful of kids coming out of these programs in the area. You have to start from the bottom and increase the talent pool via development. We are too worried about ulittles but we still have to wait until kids hit mid-teens to see how they will be physically - before then, should worry more about technical issues. Hard to do when club system is setup to be mercenary.  I understand its hard to develop kids at lower levels, but good coaches have the ability to do that - most might even enjoy it

A.PT2) You can find medicore teams from ECNL to Flight 1 to Bronze/Flight 3. Kids have to start somewhere. Never seen a kid roll off the playground on to a top flight team. They can have the physical tools but need a place to figure out speed of play and learn how to play. Have kids at flight 1 and elite teams who still run in straight lines and think soccer is smash, take ball, go forward, lose ball, go win ball, repeat cycle. Regardless of leagues are selling, development isnt the focus. Creating talent takes time. See kids rolling into flight 3 and getting into good flight 1 teams in 2-3 years. That isnt a bad window of time. If we ignored those kids/teams, we limit our player pool potential. Again, part of why we have national soccer issues. If you get to kids early enough, the window leads into teen years, where kids level out. We put too much emphasis on u11, u12,u13 but these kids havent hit there physical maturity. Should be making sure their technical ability is maximized vs worrying about flights. Improve play down to bottom will only improve higher levels of play - which I think everyone has agreed can be poor.

Given all that. Yes their is obvious advantage of playing the best competition. Just have to make sure all the teams playing one another are the top teams - and have ability to remove poor performing teams. Also needs to be initiatives to improve lower flight play. Removing the best comp from flight 1 will have a consequence. I just believe you cant focus on one group, with most coaches wanting an entire team of "great" players. Given the limits of the talent pool, you often have to create good players. wish there was a good solution. think there is as we have discussed, but I agree, *money and politics get in the way.*


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2018)

You need a certain very high base level of athleticism to be a legitimate academy player.  If you take a bunch of OK athletes and train them up you will end up with a below average flight 1 team.  Not That Serious approach seems to be cast a wide net and train all the kids, and the wider net will catch more elite kids.  The problem with that approach is that there are limited numbers of quality coaches, and frankly it’s a waste of the best coaches time to train kids with low ceilings.

IMO the level of coaching has to, on avg., get a lot better before you can take “cast the wide net” approach. There are so many crap coaches out there, the few good coaches have to be assigned to the best players.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

JJP said:


> You need a certain very high base level of athleticism to be a legitimate academy player.  If you take a bunch of OK athletes and train them up you will end up with a below average flight 1 team.  Not That Serious approach seems to be cast a wide net and train all the kids, and the wider net will catch more elite kids.  The problem with that approach is that there are limited numbers of quality coaches, and frankly it’s a waste of the best coaches time to train kids with low ceilings.
> 
> IMO the level of coaching has to, on avg., get a lot better before you can take “cast the wide net” approach. There are so many crap coaches out there, the few good coaches have to be assigned to the best players.


I dont agree with the assessment they have to be very high level athletic. Athletic yes, but elite?  Also hard to measure the quality. I wouldnt put a lot of professional defenders and even some mids in that category. 

You are 100% on the need for better coaches, but some of these coaches with the resumes cant coach a lick either.  Dont think anyone can argue against that. As far as a waste of time, that is up to personal philosophy. Guess it also depends on figuring who the best coaches are. Also have to factor in what is getting taught. Thats another rabbit hole.


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## Real Deal (Feb 8, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> I dont agree with the assessment they have to be very high level athletic. Athletic yes, but elite?  Also hard to measure the quality. I wouldnt put a lot of professional defenders and even some mids in that category.
> 
> You are 100% on the need for better coaches, but some of these coaches with the resumes cant coach a lick either.  Dont think anyone can argue against that. As far as a waste of time, that is up to personal philosophy. Guess it also depends on figuring who the best coaches are. Also have to factor in what is getting taught. Thats another rabbit hole.


So you are of the mind that they don't need to be athletic to be a high level athlete?


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## boomer (Feb 8, 2018)

Real Deal said:


> So you are of the mind that they don't need to be athletic to be a high level athlete?


That's not what he said. Correct me if I'm wrong here NTS, but believe you are saying that hyper athletes are not the answer to US Soccer's problems and lack of competitiveness on the international stage.

A certain level in the key athletic qualities (size, speed, agility, strength, stamina, etc...) are necessary to be an elite pro/int'l level soccer player, but the sport is more art than science. So much of the game is about the 6-inches between the ears. I do think you need to be "athletic enough" to execute and I believe every position requires a different baseline of each of those attributes. What would be considered "enough" is the real debate here. I know I don't have the answer.


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> I dont agree with the assessment they have to be very high level athletic. Athletic yes, but elite?  Also hard to measure the quality. I wouldnt put a lot of professional defenders and even some mids in that category.


Let me give you a real world example.  My son’s 03 academy team had the best technical coach in the club, except for the director.  His team was filled with a bunch of highly athletic, flashy skilled, technically deficient in passing/receiving, stupid, selfish players.  This coach did an incredible job fixing a lot of the stupid and the passing/receiving skills.  He couldn’t fix the selfish and there was a certain level of residual stupid.

The club then moved him to the 04s, who were all right footed only, high soccer IQ, ok speed, no size or strength, great touch, great at passing and moving.

Both teams ended up sucking.  The difference was that the 2 or 3 special athletes on the 03s, after getting coached by a top notch coach, were playing great.  Nobody was playing great on the 04s.  The 04s were losing because they had no talent that could win them games, they’d spin the ball around until a top athlete on the other team stripped them and shredded their D.  The 03s lost because the few special athletes couldn’t score enough goals to make up for the giveaways of the donkeys on the team who were under the illusion they were good because there was an academy patch on their shirt.

Result, just about the entire 04 team was cut.  They were a waste of time and coaching resources.  About half the 03 team was cut.

I completely disagree with your democratic approach.  There are a limited number of top coaches, there are limited number of top teams, there are limited number of spots on top teams.  Elite coaches and players should be together.  Elite coaches can’t turn average into great.  Mixing donkey and superstars leads to a losing team.


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## SocalPapa (Feb 8, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Works best if DPL goes away and those teams move into this division. Could create a better environment for a lot of the soon to be displaced players looking for high level competition that aren’t geographically near ECNL Clubs.
> 
> You’ll never get ECNL teams to switch....why would they leave the ECNL league?


ECNL teams wouldn't necessarily need to leave that circuit.  SCDSL could give them credit for local ECNL games against the other ECNL-SCDSL teams as if they were SCDSL Discovery division games.  Then they'd just have to find time to play the non-ECNL teams in Discovery (admittedly difficult depending on how many teams are involved).  ECNL teams play non-ECNL teams all the time in tournaments.  So it seems at least possible.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

JJP said:


> Let me give you a real world example.  My son’s 03 academy team had the best technical coach in the club, except for the director.  His team was filled with a bunch of highly athletic, flashy skilled, technically deficient in passing/receiving, stupid, selfish players.  This coach did an incredible job fixing a lot of the stupid and the passing/receiving skills.  He couldn’t fix the selfish and there was a certain level of residual stupid.


part of what i was getting at. some kids can be athletic but cant fix stupid and selfish. there are also kids who are athletic but gas out in 30 mins. a kid might not be able to jump out the gym but can run like horse all day. listened to a discussion about "mexican style" soccer online yesterday and discussion goes a similar route. often its a matter of what the coach values and what they need for the style they play. things like fixing passing/receiving should be something any competent coach should be able to fix - we do agree not all coaches are competent. 



> I completely disagree with your democratic approach.  There are a limited number of top coaches, there are limited number of top teams, there are limited number of spots on top teams.  Elite coaches and players should be together.  Elite coaches can’t turn average into great.  Mixing donkey and superstars leads to a losing team.


in the end picking teams and placing the kids isnt democratic - it shouldnt be. im not saying mix flight1 kids and train them with bronze level teams.  im just not of the opinion that you cant find great/good coaches outside of DA/ECNL/Premier or this new circuit or find kids that can make their way up a properly structured dev system. These circuits arent the end-all in soccer or development.  Many times its politics and about writing the check. So yes, youll get the kids who shouldnt be playing at the correct level. Ive never said promote kids to levels they shouldnt be in. Im saying we need to look at the system as a whole from bottom up. Too much emphasis on top down. Cant improve talent pull with this approach. 

Truth is many of the academies and teams in these systems want it closed off as much as possible in order for their flaws or lack of quality isnt seen. For instance, my friend put his flight1 team in one of the big tournaments - requested to be placed in division with academy teams. They ended up putting the team down at flight2 ( didnt concede a goal and scored 20+ goals, didnt help anyone improve). Instead the host club stuck pre-academy teams in and even their own flight1. They all got hammered. Same team wiped the floor with "pre-academy" teams who practiced 4x a week to beat them and ended up getting killed. Same team who had been playing flight2 as two separate teams this time last year. To me its about progression, and true development. Hard to balance wins/losses vs development. Some coaches good at winning but doesnt mean kids are progressing in development. Best example of who balances this idea is Hugo Perez. I think he is an "elite" coach but his teams would get spanked and he wouldnt give a crap. Was about getting kids to where they need to go and he tried to get US Soccer to understand it but they didnt share his philosophy. Can talk to ODP coaches who have kids on their teams, leave for DA teams and come back to ODP - coaches who also coach kids at all levels of play. We can find examples to show our points but all the systems have flaws. What we suggested makes more sense, but the sensible people dont make decisions in the US Soccer landscape.


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## gkrent (Feb 8, 2018)

How I yearn for the good ole' days when all there was was CSL and Premier in LA/OC.  *sigh*.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

boomer said:


> That's not what he said. Correct me if I'm wrong here NTS, but believe you are saying that hyper athletes are not the answer to US Soccer's problems and lack of competitiveness on the international stage.
> 
> A certain level in the key athletic qualities (size, speed, agility, strength, stamina, etc...) are necessary to be an elite pro/int'l level soccer player, but the sport is more art than science. So much of the game is about the 6-inches between the ears. I do think you need to be "athletic enough" to execute and I believe every position requires a different baseline of each of those attributes. What would be considered "enough" is the real debate here. I know I don't have the answer.


yep another person who likes just putting words in people's mouths. Id take a kid with 120mins of stamina and works hard vs the lazy kid with great speed, can jump through a roof but gases by halftime. One of my friends kid can run all game, can kick like a donkey but runs around with no purpose. So the kid doesnt play at flight1 - have to keep him at flight 2 until he can learn how be more thoughtful. again, depends on what coaches want for positions. my kid would LOVE to play attacking CM or wing but doesnt because he doesnt have speed - he plays as a pivot because he has good technical skill and can get things moving forward. im not unrealistic, but we need to more inclusive (with merit) vs being more separated.


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## futboldad1 (Feb 8, 2018)

JJP said:


> You need a certain very high base level of athleticism to be a legitimate academy player.  If you take a bunch of OK athletes and train them up you will end up with a below average flight 1 team.  Not That Serious approach seems to be cast a wide net and train all the kids, and the wider net will catch more elite kids.  The problem with that approach is that there are limited numbers of quality coaches, and frankly it’s a waste of the best coaches time to train kids with low ceilings.
> 
> IMO the level of coaching has to, on avg., get a lot better before you can take “cast the wide net” approach. There are so many crap coaches out there, the few good coaches have to be assigned to the best players.


You're the kind of "soccer guy" who would've passed on a young Sergio Busquets or Andrea Pirlo. Elite Athleticism is an asset not a pre-requisite, provided they are not completely non-athletic. Like the upper echelons of US Soccer, you just don't get it.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> You're the kind of "soccer guy" who would've passed on a young Sergio Busquets or Andrea Pirlo. Elite Athleticism is an asset not a pre-requisite, provided they are not completely non-athletic. Like the upper echelons of US Soccer, you just don't get it.


lol, forgot about pirlo. messi's height would have limited his opps here in the us as well - especially with his medical condition

we all have different opinion and what we value. at lower age levels having the fastest biggest guy work, but hasnt translated at highest levels. US Soccer is still trying to push Zardes as a success story.


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## boomer (Feb 8, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> lol, forgot about pirlo. messi's height would have limited his opps here in the us as well - especially with his medical condition
> 
> we all have different opinion and what we value. at lower age levels having the fastest biggest guy work, but hasnt translated at highest levels. US Soccer is still trying to push Zardes as a success story.


Exactly. Jonathan Gonzalez can't get a sniff, but the US staff brought in a guy who while at the January camp was traded to Columbus for a 28 year old with minimal caps with his national team PLUS $400,000 in allocation $$$. Oh, and a $100k bonus payout if Kamara scores 12 or more goals this season. Shows you how much Galaxy valued Zardes at that point.

This is a prime example of what's wrong with US Soccer right now...picking a player purely based on athleticism and experience. Zardes anywhere a national team camp based on his form over the past 3 seasons is an absolute joke.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 8, 2018)

boomer said:


> Exactly. Jonathan Gonzalez can't get a sniff, but the US staff brought in a guy who while at the January camp was traded to Columbus for a 28 year old with minimal caps with his national team PLUS $400,000 in allocation $$$. Oh, and a $100k bonus payout if Kamara scores 12 or more goals this season. Shows you how much Galaxy valued Zardes at that point.
> 
> This is a prime example of what's wrong with US Soccer right now...picking a player purely based on athleticism and experience. Zardes anywhere a national team camp based on his form over the past 3 seasons is an absolute joke.


Take a look at Open Cup and teams Eric Wynalda enters. Literally finds kids off the streets and able to hang with pro teams - even beating them. He even stated hed take the player with heart with less then killer measurables over most of the phenom kids who never has to fight for their spots. Not a secret how many of the Latin Clubs are killing many of our good clubs in state. Different mentality - not like these kids are playimg with so called "elite" players. These coaches getting more out of players with less resources.


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> You're the kind of "soccer guy" who would've passed on a young Sergio Busquets or Andrea Pirlo. Elite Athleticism is an asset not a pre-requisite, provided they are not completely non-athletic. Like the upper echelons of US Soccer, you just don't get it.


Blah blah, Pirlo Riquelme, Xavi, Iniesta . . . Blah blah.

Those legit good slow players are so rare.  You can coach up thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of those slow players to find one Pirlo.

And what you’re ignoring is that teams had to surround Pirlo and Riquelme with speedy midfielders to win and feed them the ball.  Xavi had, at various points in his career, Messi, Ronaldhino, Henri, Eto’o and other greats to draw pressure from the midfield and create pockets of space for him to operate.

The point is that even the greatest slow players required specialized roster construction and to be surrounded by top notch talent to take full advantage of their talent.

I would also point out that Pep Guardiola, who was responsible for promoting Xavi and Iniesta to Barca’s top team, didn’t buy any Xavi or Iniesta type players for Man City.  Instead he spent lots of money on fast speedy fullbacks.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Feb 9, 2018)

As someone relatively new to club soccer in SoCal and at the younger levels, its madness to hear about all these leagues and different structures. Considering that contact time with a coach is usually about 75% at training sessions and 25% at matches (probably only 10% competitive), why does all this matter so much? Can't you just find a good coach and sign for that coach, no matter what division/flight they are in? I understand the need to have all the top level kids playing each other at 11v11, but from everyone's responses, sounds like it won't happen anyway. Just have one division 1, two division 2s (north/south), four division 3s and work it down from there.

No wonder talent is diluted and wasted, I'm sure there are hundreds of kids who are in the wrong levels, purely because other parents get confused about all these structures and put their kids in the wrong environment (either too high up and fail/quit, or too low down and don't improve as its too easy).


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## futboldad1 (Feb 9, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> As someone relatively new to club soccer in SoCal and at the younger levels, its madness to hear about all these leagues and different structures. Considering that contact time with a coach is usually about 75% at training sessions and 25% at matches (probably only 10% competitive), why does all this matter so much? Can't you just find a good coach and sign for that coach, no matter what division/flight they are in? I understand the need to have all the top level kids playing each other at 11v11, but from everyone's responses, sounds like it won't happen anyway. Just have one division 1, two division 2s (north/south), four division 3s and work it down from there.
> 
> No wonder talent is diluted and wasted, I'm sure there are hundreds of kids who are in the wrong levels, purely because other parents get confused about all these structures and put their kids in the wrong environment (either too high up and fail/quit, or too low down and don't improve as its too easy).


Good post. It's very real issue that many parents think "yay we won xyz" but have no clue that they played Flight 3. For those that know it's fine, but I've met many parents who think their kids are junior messi's as they are, and have been, misinformed as to their teams actual level. Some clubs literally make a living off this.


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## MWN (Feb 9, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> As someone relatively new to club soccer in SoCal ... why does all this matter so much? Can't you just find a good coach and sign for that coach, no matter what division/flight they are in? .../QUOTE]


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Feb 9, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> Good post. It's very real issue that many parents think "yay we won xyz" but have no clue that they played Flight 3. For those that know it's fine, but I've met many parents who think their kids are junior messi's as they are, and have been, misinformed as to their teams actual level. Some clubs literally make a living off this.


Yes I noticed this at State cup last weekend. In the knockout stages, the scenes on the sidelines were crazy! I wonder if everyone knew that it was the Mayors division and that there were over 100 teams competing in the Governers/Presidents levels above us?


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## MWN (Feb 9, 2018)

Don't get hung up on this.  The vast majority of kids play soccer to have fun and have no future playing for schools beyond HS.  A handful of kids have the talent to move up to the elite levels of youth soccer, which opens doors for college scholarships.  If that is your kid, then you simply want them to play on the best team they can because college coaches only really scout the elite teams at showcases and certain tournaments.  The leagues are all jockeying to provide a solution to the problem of talent dilution by giving high-level teams what they want, which is opportunities to play teams that are as good or better than them.  So you, as a parent, should do exactly what you wrote, find a good coach and see how the kid develops.  If the kid can move to the elite ranks (great), if not, don't sweat it and have fun.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks. I'm sure things will change when we get to 11v11. Until then, I don't understand all the fuss. I am happy with our coach, my son has developed hugely under him this season. We have no reason to look elsewhere.


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## MWN (Feb 9, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Yes I noticed this at State cup last weekend. In the knockout stages, the scenes on the sidelines were crazy! I wonder if everyone knew that it was the Mayors division and that there were over 100 teams competing in the Governers/Presidents levels above us?


Winning a game at the Mayor's division means just as much to those young boys and girls as it does for those competing in Governors, Presidents and National Cup.  The only people that really care about what level it was are the A-Hole adults.  So cheer, congratulate your kid for making it however far they did and go celebrate.


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## timbuck (Feb 9, 2018)

ItsCalledSoccer said:


> Yes I noticed this at State cup last weekend. In the knockout stages, the scenes on the sidelines were crazy! I wonder if everyone knew that it was the Mayors division and that there were over 100 teams competing in the Governers/Presidents levels above us?


Maybe to us adults-  mayors, governors or presidents means something. But to that 9 or 10 year old kid, it means nothing.  Winning means they get to play another weekend of a game that (hopefully) they love playing.  With teammates they (hopefully) enjoy playing with. Once state cup is over (at any level) most teams fall apart. 

I saw this quote the other day-
“Kids compete.  Parents compare.”

Put your kid at the right level that keeps them playing for as long as possible.   If they are a flight 3 player, don’t try to move them to a higher flight if they aren’t ready.  They’ll be miserable riding the bench or blowing it on the field week after week.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Feb 9, 2018)

Don't get me wrong, we love to celebrate our kids achievements. I just worry for those parents who go mental on the sideline, over pressure their 8 year old kid and believe their kid is the next Messi, when there are 100 teams they haven't even played! Haha.

It looks like all but one kid are returning next year, so that's a good sign. We played Bronze and came second, so I think the coach is putting us in Silver next year. Looks like there were only a dozen or so silver teams last year (which was the top division) so it looks like a good challenge for my son. Hopefully nobody takes it too seriously though, the kids aren't even double-digits yet!


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## Toch (Feb 10, 2018)

Just waiting for them to drop the SD and just be CSL again. Lol... in other words they are Sayinb CSL is the way to go


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## SoccerFan4Life (Feb 11, 2018)

So in summary...
- scdsl is creating a response to CRL
- it's all about the money 
- maybe some other teams outside scdsl join but very doubtful 
- everyone's mad that we don't have an all inclusive league


However, isn't national cup an all inclusive tournament?  My point is that the best teams in SoCal will play against each other so we do have an all inclusive tournament.   

Academy teams is a whole different level, not necessarily better teams but the purpose is different.


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## Bubba (Feb 11, 2018)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> So in summary...
> - scdsl is creating a response to CRL
> - it's all about the money
> - maybe some other teams outside scdsl join but very doubtful
> ...


Worry about your player and the coach and team. If your player is improving and happy and the team is doing well what difference does it make what league they play in. If you have the need to see what team is better in each age group look at the results of CRL and National cup. Also if you have the need brag about what league is better look at the same results. 

CRL and National league are both inclusive tournaments.Both lead to far west regionals.

Play those tournament above ,National League  and top level tournament are all inclusive. I feel playing these tournament are more important that fall leagues with the current state


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 16, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> You're the kind of "soccer guy" who would've passed on a young Sergio Busquets or Andrea Pirlo. Elite Athleticism is an asset not a pre-requisite, provided they are not completely non-athletic. Like the upper echelons of US Soccer, you just don't get it.


You can add Gareth Bale and one of the best midfielders ever Paul Scholes to that list. They too were being passed over.


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## Kicker4Life (Feb 16, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> You can add Gareth Bale and one of the best midfielders ever Paul Scholes to that list. They too were being passed over.


I believe Harry Kane was let go in Arsenal’s Academy cause they thought he was too “chunky”....


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 16, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> I believe Harry Kane was let go in Arsenal’s Academy cause they thought he was too “chunky”....


I did not know that! I’m sure Wenger feels foolish now!


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## Kicker4Life (Feb 16, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I did not know that! I’m sure Wenger feels foolish now!


http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11248766/harry-kane-was-released-by-arsenal-because-he-was-a-bit-chubby-says-liam-brady

"He was a bit chubby, he wasn't very athletic but we made a mistake," Brady told Corriere della Sera. "But Tottenham sent him out on loan to lower-division clubs three or four times as well.


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 16, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11248766/harry-kane-was-released-by-arsenal-because-he-was-a-bit-chubby-says-liam-brady
> 
> "He was a bit chubby, he wasn't very athletic but we made a mistake," Brady told Corriere della Sera. "But Tottenham sent him out on loan to lower-division clubs three or four times as well.


At least Tottenheim stuck with him. Obviously saw something in him to see if he’d develop.


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## Real Deal (Feb 16, 2018)

Well all those guys look pretty athletic now.  I don't see any chubby or flaccid or huffing and puffing down the pitch now, do you?  
Maybe there's like one guy out there who can stand in one spot and kick the crap out of it, but he'd be a rarity.

Come on now, for the most part, an aspiring athlete has got to put in the work to be athletic.  It's ludicrous to say they can make it to the highest level in an aerobic sport like soccer without being or _becoming_ athletic.

Don't confuse athletic for "big."  There are plenty of big kids who are un-athletic clods and get knocked off the ball easy and then small ones who are strong and tenacious as heck.  Skilled, yes,  but also need strength, conditioning, endurance, and yes, musculos to be at the highest level.


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## JJP (Mar 1, 2018)

I don’t know the deal with Kane and Scholes, but both Bale and Gerrard were in danger of being cut.  Bale was late in achieving physical maturity, and then when he grew he lost his coordination for a long time until he got used to his new body.   Bale was ranked at the bottom of Southampton’s academy for a couple of years.  Gerrard was also a late bloomer and had a late birthday, but Liverpool stuck with him because he had shown enough that they wanted to see what he would look like when he fully matured.  Both of these players, had at some point I’m their youth careers, signs of high levels of speed and athleticism.

I frankly have no idea why some of you seem to be advocating hold on to every good, slow, unathletic player to see if he will be the next Pirlo.  Teams have a limited number of spots.  The hit rate with fast skilled players is a lot higher.  Everybody misses on players, nobody knows for sure how a kid will develop.  It makes complete sense to me that teams play the odds and favor guys with skill and speed vs. guys with only skill.

I think in Europe, where there are so many academies, and so many open spots, it’s the perfect place to develop the good slow player that shows signs of being something special.


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## apmullaly (Mar 2, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> I believe Harry Kane was let go in Arsenal’s Academy cause they thought he was too “chunky”....


At age 8


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## Mystery Train (Mar 2, 2018)

JJP said:


> I frankly have no idea why some of you seem to be advocating hold on to every good, slow, unathletic player to see if he will be the next Pirlo. Teams have a limited number of spots. The hit rate with fast skilled players is a lot higher. Everybody misses on players, nobody knows for sure how a kid will develop. It makes complete sense to me that teams play the odds and favor guys with skill and speed vs. guys with only skill.


1. Nobody is advocating holding on to EVERY slow, unathletic player.  Just their own.  
2. I think the problem with this whole debate is that both coaches and parents think their job is to develop the next Pirlo, or Bale, or Messi, or X great player.  It's not.  Each kid on that field at practice or tryouts or in the game deserves to be evaluated, coached, and supported in the way that will maximize what God gave them as long as they put in the effort.  Period.  Dismissing a 10 year old as being "too slow" or "too small" or "unathletic" is dumb, because they're freaking 10 years old.  That doesn't mean they should get to be on the top team or be a starter for heaven's sake, but concentrating only on the players that fit the high "hit rate" measureables hasn't exactly worked for US soccer, has it?  
3. All under-12 soccer leagues and teams should be disbanded and every field freed up during those practice and game times for that age group to show up and play pick-up soccer with no coaches, refs, or parents interfering.  Just like street basketball, if you suck, you're the last one picked or not picked at all.  If you can ball out, you get picked.  All the regulars on the court know who can ball, and they don't care if you're short, slow, white or latino or black, who your dad is, how much you pay the club, etc.  If you can ball, you can play.  If a kid and their family is so inclined, they can pay for private training.  I've not seen any long term benefit on the whole for US soccer by having a massive pay-to-play club structure in place for little kids.  (I know, I know, pure fantasy.  But still . . .)


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## JJP (Mar 3, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> 1. Nobody is advocating holding on to EVERY slow, unathletic player.  Just their own.


That’s true.  My second son is starting to play now and it’s interesting to compare coaches reactions to my two boys.  My first son was always the most explosive and physical player on the field and coaches loved his potential.  My second boy is a lot smarter and has better technique, and he’s not slow, but he doesn’t have that burst of speed, and the stupid coaches are meh on him.



> 2. I think the problem with this whole debate is that both coaches and parents think their job is to develop the next Pirlo, or Bale, or Messi, or X great player.  It's not.  Each kid on that field at practice or tryouts or in the game deserves to be evaluated, coached, and supported in the way that will maximize what God gave them as long as they put in the effort.  Period.


That’s not the case with Academy.  They tell you flat out they want players that could end up on the USNT



> Dismissing a 10 year old as being "too slow" or "too small" or "unathletic" is dumb, because they're freaking 10 years old.  That doesn't mean they should get to be on the top team or be a starter for heaven's sake, but concentrating only on the players that fit the high "hit rate" measureables hasn't exactly worked for US soccer, has it?


So what’s your solution?  Don’t take the most athletic players because it didn’t work this WC cycle?  That makes no sense to me.

I think the best approach is always to cram as much soccer skill and soccer IQ into the fastest players that can run for 90 mins.


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## futboldad1 (Mar 3, 2018)

JJP said:


> That’s not the case with Academy.  They tell you flat out they want players that could end up on the USNT


M is for marketing.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 3, 2018)

JJP said:


> That’s not the case with Academy. They tell you flat out they want players that could end up on the USNT


Yeah but their ability to forecast that is piss poor in my opinion.  Not to mention I think the USMNT selection process has not worked very well either.  I'm talking mostly about younger kids here.  Your logic about speed is pretty spot on at the elite level of the older youth spectrum, but I am a firm believer that pre-puberty, none of this is applicable and actually counter productive to development of all players and the game in general.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 3, 2018)

JJP said:


> So what’s your solution? Don’t take the most athletic players because it didn’t work this WC cycle? That makes no sense to me.


Good heavens, no.  Nobody in their right mind would ignore the most athletic players.  I'm just saying it's often highly over valued at the younger ages.  For context, how old are your boys?


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## JJP (Mar 3, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Yeah but their ability to forecast that is piss poor in my opinion.  Not to mention I think the USMNT selection process has not worked very well either.  I'm talking mostly about younger kids here.  Your logic about speed is pretty spot on at the elite level of the older youth spectrum, but I am a firm believer that pre-puberty, none of this is applicable and actually counter productive to development of all players and the game in general.


I don’t think it’s the selection process, I think the main problem is developmental.  France selects between Kylian Mbappe, Ousmane Dembele and Anthony Martial  for their wingers.  You can pick any 2 of the 3 and you’ve made the right choice.  I don’t even know who the US selects from, but it’s probably going to be the wrong choice, because the selection pool is filled with meh players.

Player development is stalling from age 14-18, and I also believe a lot of the top athletes are bailing out of soccer and choosing other sports by that age group.



Mystery Train said:


> Good heavens, no.  Nobody in their right mind would ignore the most athletic players.  I'm just saying it's often highly over valued at the younger ages.  For context, how old are your boys?


I don’t think athleticism is overvalued.  Hi level athleticism IMO exhibits itself early and the most athletic kids in college were the most athletic in HS, middle school, primary school and kindergarten.

What gets overvalued and mistaken for athleticism IMO is maturity.  It’s hard to judge athleticism with confounding age effects clouding any evaluation.  I like to see top players in an age group competing up a year.  If they are still dominating an older age group, that kid is probably a special athlete.


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## Gu8 Dad (Apr 19, 2018)

Back to topic...

Any updates to this New Project?
Have teams been starting to get invites?


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## Raggamufin (Apr 19, 2018)

Gu8 Dad said:


> Back to topic...
> 
> Any updates to this New Project?
> Have teams been starting to get invites?


Your club registar have to submit an application for any team that wants to enter.
Cost is $1000. They then review and send invites .


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## Soccer_newbie (May 31, 2018)

Any updates on this project?


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## Sunil Illuminati (Jun 1, 2018)

*


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## timbuck (Jul 10, 2018)

Raggamufin said:


> Your club registar have to submit an application for any team that wants to enter.
> Cost is $1000. They then review and send invites .


Another thread says that invites went out this week.
Is the cost $1,000 above and beyond whatever the $450 per team that SCDSL usually charges?  Or in place of it?
Those "included" referee costs and "free tournament credit" are coming from somewhere?
And now that we have the DA and ECNL "adjustments" along with the DPL stuff going on -  I still wonder how necessary this new division is?


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## MWN (Jul 10, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Another thread says that invites went out this week.
> Is the cost $1,000 above and beyond whatever the $450 per team that SCDSL usually charges?  Or in place of it?
> Those "included" referee costs and "free tournament credit" are coming from somewhere?
> And now that we have the DA and ECNL "adjustments" along with the DPL stuff going on -  I still wonder how necessary this new division is?


With regard to the later, the Discovery league would not have happened if the SCDSL members clubs didn't support it.  While I was not in the room, I imagine the discussion went something like this:

SCDSL: Ok guys/gals, we have the CRL/National League - Pacific Conf., ECNL and DA, of which many of your clubs have teams in.  We are seeing an incursion by US Club soccer and now Super-Y with the ECNL-Boys, NPL, and Super-Y.  All of these leagues are attractive because they offer showcases, and provide various accolades and awards.  How do we respond?

Clubs: Well, other than being our top Division (Flight 1 - Champions), it really offers nothing special than the Flight 3 divisions.  

SCDSL: You know, we also have another problem and that is we are losing some of our younger teams due to new rules, and they were playing at Silverlakes under our $15k per day contract, can we do something to fill that gap?  What if we rebranded the Flight 1 Champions as a new division and then added some extras, like DA and ECNL do? 

Clubs: Ummm, OK ... you know, our parents of the these flight 1 teams also want video taping for their kids recruiting tapes, and medical, and some other benefits.

SCDSL: We also have a special relationship with the Surf Cup dude that we might be able to exploit in a mutually beneficial way.

SCDSL: [... crunching some numbers ... talking behind the scenes to some DOCs].

SCDSL: How about this:

Teams will play an 11-game fall season.
Games will all be played at Silverlakes in Norco — unless teams from the same area like San Diego are scheduled to play each other in which case games will be played at the Surf Cup Sports Park in Del Mar.
All fall test dates are accommodated.
Referee fees will be covered by the league for this division.
1st and 2nd place of each division will receive a tournament stipend of $1400 from the SCDSL to participate in the tournament of their choice after the end of the SCDSL season. This means that 20 teams from the SCDSL will receive a stipend to assist them in after-league competition to further their college exposure.
Winners will receive guaranteed acceptance into Surf Cup.
There will be end of season awards voted on by coaches in each game via a nomination process.
There will be the option to have games video taped.
Convenient scheduling with games being played youngest to oldest similar to DA and ECNL formats.
A designated onsite social media presence and a division specific statistician on site for all game days.
There will also be a spring College Showcase for the Discovery Division paid for, and hosted, by the SCDSL. There is no fee for this. Teams from outside of SoCal will be invited, college coaches will be invited and the DOC’s are all committed to making this an exceptional event for the players towards their goals of playing college soccer.


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## Dummy (Jul 10, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Another thread says that invites went out this week.
> Is the cost $1,000 above and beyond whatever the $450 per team that SCDSL usually charges?  Or in place of it?
> Those "included" referee costs and "free tournament credit" are coming from somewhere?
> And now that we have the DA and ECNL "adjustments" along with the DPL stuff going on -  I still wonder how necessary this new division is?


The new SCDSL division is trying to offer some benefits, like video taping games and making travel more predictable.  In order to to this, teams have to play at common locations, like SilverLakes.  The increased cost isn’t much relatively speaking.  One can still make a reasonable argument that it is better to simply play home and away without video - I get it.  Either way, this is not a big change.

Hopefully, the majority of the teams will be at the same level so games will be competitive and players can develop.  The only thing worse than making the drive between San Diego and LA to play game that ends in a blowout is making the drive between AZ and SoCal for the same.


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## Gu8 Dad (Jul 10, 2018)

With all this being planned, is there an official list of teams that have been invited?
Looking at 2003 age in particular.

thanks in advance


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## Justafan (Jul 10, 2018)

In case JoeZ is watching, there is no need for his league, they could have done all these same things in the Champions division.


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## Simisoccerfan (Jul 10, 2018)

Kinda sounds similar to DPL.


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## Dummy (Jul 10, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Kinda sounds similar to DPL.


With the minor difference that you don’t have the clubs (and the parents that repeat what the clubs tell/sell them) telling themselves (and anyone that overhears them) that the same players and teams are now better than they were the day before just because a reorganization has occurred.


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## Fact (Jul 10, 2018)

Dummy said:


> With the minor difference that you don’t have the clubs (and the parents that repeat what the clubs tell/sell them) telling themselves (and anyone that overhears them) that the same players and teams are now better than they were the day before just because a RENAMING has occurred.


#Dummy if I may correct you? See above


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## Simisoccerfan (Jul 10, 2018)

Dummy said:


> With the minor difference that you don’t have the clubs (and the parents that repeat what the clubs tell/sell them) telling themselves (and anyone that overhears them) that the same players and teams are now better than they were the day before just because a reorganization has occurred.


Just wait.  It will happen.


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## JoeZ (Jul 10, 2018)

Justafan said:


> In case JoeZ is watching, there is no need for his league, they could have done all these same things in the Champions division.


Yawn........hope your daughters and families can enjoy the coming season regardless of which level or league your in.

I noticed when the Surf Cup schedule was up temporarily last night, looking at the 03 and 02 years aside from DA separate in their own category, seemed the ECNL, DPL and all other league teams were mixed within several categories and brackets. 

Good luck to all!


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