# When to jump to DA



## Kickers99 (Nov 13, 2018)

Curious on your thoughts.
When to jump to boys DA if offered.

Is it better to get in younger ages 05/06 with possibly less play time (but be able to practice daily with higher level players and get the opportunity to earn more play through the season) or stay F1 and get more playtime? They also of course get more practices and trainings.

Will it be more difficult to get in later on? For a lower "DA level player". 
Maybe better to have them enjoy the opportunity now vs. not having an option later?


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## Paul Spacey (Nov 13, 2018)

Playing time isn’t just important; it’s vital. Without enough of it, there is a huge missing piece from any kids’ development so this should always be a big consideration when joining any team, DA or not.

At the younger ages, is DA that far ahead of gold/flight 1 in terms of the quality of players? Probably not. So sticking with your gold/flight 1 team, for me, is the best option for the majority. I say majority because if you are one of the top few percent of kids (the minority) and you are good enough to be a regular DA starter with lots of playing almost guaranteed, it would be more of a consideration to look at switching.

It’s a complex issue and as always, it’s a very individual and personal one, depending on lots of circumstances.

Very good article below from 343 on ‘matters of circumstance’. 

http://blog.3four3.com/2012/11/29/soccer-matters-of-circumstance/


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## focomoso (Nov 13, 2018)

There's no easy answer for this. My thinking for my son has always been to put him on the best team he could make because you spend so much more time practicing than playing. Because of this, he's been on a DA for the last two years, fighting for playing time, but improving a lot. This has worked for him so far, but my thinking on this is starting to change because 1) the level of play at the DA isn't so much (if at all) greater than some of the f1 teams where he has friends and which are much closer to home 2) as he gets older, I'm seeing playing time as more important and 3) confidence is a thing. When he plays on the DA, he's just one of many. The team will do fine with or without him and he sees himself as a middle level player. But when he plays with the f1 team, he's a "star". The coaches rely on him. His teammates rely on him. They want him to be there and he has a much greater impact on the game. He feels much more important and you can see this confidence growing.

It's hard to say which is better in the long run. Building confidence without matching skill isn't helpful. How many times have you seen a kid show up to try out with a high level team full of confidence because he's been running up the score in AYSO only to find that they can't handle the speed of play at the higher level? But building skills at the expense of confidence is detrimental as well. Sometimes kids need to feel what my son calls "the spark" to keep the game exciting and that's harder to get against stronger opposition.

Also keep in mind that the DA gets smaller as the kids get older. If they're on the cusp at U12/13, they will likely not find a spot at U14/15 unless they improve much more than their peers. It's designed this way on purpose.


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## mirage (Nov 13, 2018)

Sharing our experience may help you think this through a bit.

Our older son (now playing in college) was in and out of DA, by his choice.  He also wanted to play high school with his friends and for the high school.

He played DA at U14 (didn't have anything younger then, and the age grouping was U14, U16/15, U18/17) and U18.  Now days there are youngers and U15 is by itself and there's a talk about separating U16 by itself.  Frankly, I think one of the unintended consequence of having U12 and U13 is what the environment has changed to.  Don't need to get into a different rant....

Our philosophy has always been (and it still is for our younger kid) is to place the kid onto a team where he is on the top half of the roster, and not the bottom half of the roster.  This way, ensures better playing time and also still having to compete within the team.  In other words, we put our kids onto the most competitive team where he was on the top half of the roster.  This may be DA, Flight 1, Premier, or below.  Whatever it is at that time. 

So for our older kid, it was DA, Flt1 and Premier, depending on which team he was on.  For our younger, it was Flt2, and Flt1 now.  Our younger kid is not interested in DA or college soccer at all.  Its just for fun for him.

I think you get the picture.

Now onto your other point, yes, I believe based on our experience and observation with multiple (via friends kids too) DA clubs, there are certain amount of loyalty, or perhaps more of familiarity with the coaches.  A new comer has to "unseat" the existing player pecking order to get onto the roaster.  So if a player is on the bottom half of the roster, there is a higher likelihood that the player will be dropped and replaced.  If a kid is in the middle of the pack, then it depends more on the interrelationship of the player and the coach - at least based on our observation in the past. 

Since I don't know of a single kid happy to be a bench warmer, think about this.  Aside from the act of playing, the live game gives the player crucial development and increase the ability to play under pressure and speed.  The key situations that demand both mental and physical strength that one doesn't get during any training.  The consequence of winning and losing makes a difference to the players (regardless of not emphasizing winning via USSDA at youngers).  Doing more of the same 4 nights/wk many not have the sufficient condition for some players to move onto the next level.

BTW, have you asked your son what he'd like to do?  Just remember that the parents job is to build bridges and open the doors.  The kid has to want to get across the bridge and through the door......


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## Kickers99 (Nov 13, 2018)

Thanks for the great advice and knowledge although still hasn't made the choice easy 

As much as love the water cooler talk, my son does want to eventually go DA for himself and doesn't care about high school. I just want to help make the best choice.


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## Iknownothing (Nov 13, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> Playing time isn’t just important; it’s vital. Without enough of it, there is a huge missing piece from any kids’ development so this should always be a big consideration when joining any team, DA or not.
> 
> At the younger ages, is DA that far ahead of gold/flight 1 in terms of the quality of players? Probably not. So sticking with your gold/flight 1 team, for me, is the best option for the majority. I say majority because if you are one of the top few percent of kids (the minority) and you are good enough to be a regular DA starter with lots of playing almost guaranteed, it would be more of a consideration to look at switching.
> 
> ...


Its a BS article from 3four3 and I’ll tell you why... I’ve seen a lot of 05 and younger American teams beat the pants off of European clubs like Barca, Man city, and others. What I’m telling you is the American young boys are huge compared to their counterparts in Europe. It don’t mean shit. LAFC could go over there now and whoop on everybody with their youth academy. It’s a total different style. Everything is more finesse especially in Spain.. do I dare say soft, No.. but its different. Here in America we just run over people at our young age. But wait till these clubs meet again when Barca/ European and America’s team are now men and our friends across the ocean will now kick our ass over and over. Cause USSDA likes big boys.. it’s slowly changing but it looks like all the big boys are going to camp again while the little soccer brains are still waiting. But yes get you child in USSDA as soon as possible. It’s the only way to get noticed. As for playing time, don’t worry about it cause if your child is always sitting only the MLS clubs cut..  the rest of the USSDA don’t cause they still want money


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## focomoso (Nov 14, 2018)

Iknownothing said:


> As for playing time, don’t worry about it cause if your child is always sitting only the MLS clubs cut..  the rest of the USSDA don’t cause they still want money


Interesting take... It's not true in my experience. Most of the non-MLS DAs I know are free and even the paid ones cut players if they find someone better.


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## GKDad65 (Nov 15, 2018)

If you need the DA thing for your self confidence then go for it!  Bath in the limelight as you see it, but if you think it's going to make any difference in your play or your opportunities after high school you're dreaming.


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## ultimate20 (Nov 16, 2018)

GKDad65 said:


> If you need the DA thing for your self confidence then go for it!  Bath in the limelight as you see it, but if you think it's going to make any difference in your play or your opportunities after high school you're dreaming.


That's an interesting take.  Lets' say a player has the goal of playing D1 in college, would it be helpful to know that X% of DA players received D1 scholarships?  And if this X% was high, would it then make sense to go DA?  How would the numbers affect a parent's or player's decision?  I don't personally know the % of DA players that get D1 scholarships, but I'm guessing it's higher than non DA.  Maybe someone else has some stats to share with the forum.


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## espola (Nov 16, 2018)

ultimate20 said:


> That's an interesting take.  Lets' say a player has the goal of playing D1 in college, would it be helpful to know that X% of DA players received D1 scholarships?  And if this X% was high, would it then make sense to go DA?  How would the numbers affect a parent's or player's decision?  I don't personally know the % of DA players that get D1 scholarships, but I'm guessing it's higher than non DA.  Maybe someone else has some stats to share with the forum.


Of course it is higher than non-DA.  There has already been a selection process intervening, and the DA clubs are not selecting a random sampling of players to fill their rosters.  The point not to be missed is that at some level of skill, strength, size, speed, etc, DA is irrelevant.


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## mirage (Nov 16, 2018)

ultimate20 said:


> That's an interesting take.  Lets' say a player has the goal of playing D1 in college, would it be helpful to know that X% of DA players received D1 scholarships?  And if this X% was high, would it then make sense to go DA?  How would the numbers affect a parent's or player's decision?  I don't personally know the % of DA players that get D1 scholarships, but I'm guessing it's higher than non DA.  Maybe someone else has some stats to share with the forum.


Just a small, but a very important point.  Really need to separate being recruited and receiving scholarship.

Yes if one is recruited, there is "some" money but it is exceptional case, if the funding is anything close to a full ride.  For men's D1 its 9.9 equivalent persons (EP), and for women around 13 EP on a roster of 30ish players.

There are roughly 1600 seniors graduating from DA clubs annually on the boys side.  There are roughly 200 D1 mens programs and most recruit about 6~8 total, including transfers.  The math is very simple right?

Since DA provides the screening, where coaches don't have to do the hard recruiting work of finding players all over the place.  It certainly simplify their lives by attending playoffs/showcases (not to mention saving their budget).

D2 (for men 9EP) and D3 (No athletic scholarship allowed), its even more challenging to offset the college costs.

Does this mean if a kid is not on DA, won't be recruited?  Absolutely not.  Lots of kids get recruited.  Its just that kids outside of DA has to work harder to be noticed.  Additionally, I've had multiple college coaches tell me that they don't go after DA kids for the most part because their expectation for scholarship is out of wack with their affordability.  In other words, they don't even bother because they know that there are other options.

The answer really depends on the kid and how good the kid is.  I'm sure you can imagine a DA player on the YNT roster can pretty much name his price and where he wants to go, as long as the grades are decent and no character issues.  I think you can also imagine a DA bench warmer probably not getting much actions from college coaches.  Both play DA but cannot generalize their circumstances.  So this whole notion is bit silly but I also know its a relative weighing kind of question for DA value....


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## numero15 (Nov 17, 2018)

Just to throw in a few more thoughts.... 
First, not all DA teams are created equal. There is this idea of the DA...there really are only a few good DA teams per age group. Check the standings on some other posts. There are typically 1-3 good to very good teams and then a bunch of others. I agree with a few posts suggesting that in some cases flt 1 teams are better. There are not many, but find a good coach (club) who teaches the game. 
Second, if you think your kid has it.  Go to the best team straight away. Practice is the key (see pt 1) 
Third, consider your kids skills/intelligence and then combine your genetics. Maybe he is small now, but give him a year or two. If he has the brains and the skills it will work itself out. If he’s just big, uh, learn the game. If he just likes the game, play fltX, play tourneys...have fun. I would argue that the DA is less ‘fun’. Games are scheduled oddly, playing time might be less, tons more practice, not many tourneys, more pressure. Know your kid. 

One thing that I’ve seen, club hoppers don’t do well. Make your moves with a plan and with a purpose. 

Another consideration about scholarships. Know that your kid isn’t just competing for scholarships/roster spots with just DA players...there are loads of foreign players too. I’ve been to several local schools, invariably half the roster is foreign born players. 

Side note, there are no teams in America around U10 and up beating the pants off Barcelona.  Maybe they beat the local club teams over there, but not the big boys. Not many American MIC winners at any age 

Anyway couple thoughts from what I’ve seen the past several years.


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## i_am_taxed (Nov 17, 2018)

If your goal is to give your son a better chance at college admission, how much is DA helpful?

Let's say your son has the high enough GPA and SAT scores for D3 schools like CMU, Johns Hopkins or WashU.
Being in DA starter be enough to push him over the admission?  

or would be better to play in flight 1 team and high school?


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## Dargle (Nov 17, 2018)

i_am_taxed said:


> If your goal is to give your son a better chance at college admission, how much is DA helpful?
> 
> Let's say your son has the high enough GPA and SAT scores for D3 schools like CMU, Johns Hopkins or WashU.
> Being in DA starter be enough to push him over the admission?
> ...


There are definitely non-DA clubs that have a reputation for placing a lot of kids with top DIII academic liberal arts colleges.  In some cases, the club is in an academically-oriented community and those kids would have applied and gotten into many of those schools anyway.  In other cases, the clubs appear to have a pipeline to certain coaches, hosting their own college events with coaches from top academic schools (including a few Ivy League schools).  It certainly wouldn't hurt to be a DA starter and I expect the DA club would help to place you in a DIII if that's where you wanted to go, but some coaches from those east coast/midwest DIII schools bypass the big DA showcase opportunities and focus on places where they know the kids can get in and are likely to be interested in that type of school.  If the coach is interested, then it won't matter if you're DA or not as long as they have pull with Admissions in their school.


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## Not_that_Serious (Nov 20, 2018)

Iknownothing said:


> Its a BS article from 3four3 and I’ll tell you why... I’ve seen a lot of 05 and younger American teams beat the pants off of European clubs like Barca, Man city, and others. What I’m telling you is the American young boys are huge compared to their counterparts in Europe. It don’t mean shit. LAFC could go over there now and whoop on everybody with their youth academy. It’s a total different style. Everything is more finesse especially in Spain.. do I dare say soft, No.. but its different. Here in America we just run over people at our young age. But wait till these clubs meet again when Barca/ European and America’s team are now men and our friends across the ocean will now kick our ass over and over. Cause USSDA likes big boys.. it’s slowly changing but it looks like all the big boys are going to camp again while the little soccer brains are still waiting. But yes get you child in USSDA as soon as possible. It’s the only way to get noticed. As for playing time, don’t worry about it cause if your child is always sitting only the MLS clubs cut..  the rest of the USSDA don’t cause they still want money


which teams? ive taken and know others who taken teams to Europe - NON have beaten the pants off European clubs. Especially any u12-u14 us club teams. Had a solid team go to Germany and play top 5 academy and first game: 25-1. No younger DA, or even older DA team is going to professional academies and beating them. You will see "academy" teams come here with shirts, but those arent their top kids coming to tour. Those are kids, like here, with parents who have the $$$$ to do a US tour to play soccer. The US club teams playing them then get all happy since they beat "Man City". There is a reason clubs like Barca say there are ZERO kids they target to take to Europe. Bayern might take 1 kid in all age groups to Germany every other year or so. Go take a trip to Germany, visit any Bundesliga Academy in the 1st or 2nd Division and see the training and the ability of the kids. They know how to manage playing against big fast kid who tries to dominate the game. By 12, those kids already past learning technical stuff and working on game play. They already know how to to defend against dominate players. LAFC going over there and whooping on academy teams? That is ignorant and you are just stating things for affect- shows you've also never been to academies in Europe. Dont even have to go to Europe, can go visit clubs like America, Chivas, etc in MX to see how further along kids are at younger ages. None of those clubs are getting smashed.

i do agree 343 puts out some bs stuff just to hear themselves talk and sell vids.


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## mirage (Nov 21, 2018)

i_am_taxed said:


> If your goal is to give your son a better chance at college admission, how much is DA helpful?
> 
> Let's say your son has the high enough GPA and SAT scores for D3 schools like CMU, Johns Hopkins or WashU.
> Being in DA starter be enough to push him over the admission?
> ...


Yes DA will help, because the coach has a vote in the admission process.  Not like D1 or D2, but definitely a voice.  But it may not be enough.  Many recruited players at these high academic profile schools do not get accepted.

Since the schools listed all have average SAT>1500, ACT>34 (they all superscores), having high GPA and entrance exam results are not sufficient - they are compulsory.


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## mirage (Nov 21, 2018)

Dargle said:


> ........It certainly wouldn't hurt to be a DA starter and I expect the DA club would help to place you in a DIII if that's where you wanted to go, but some coaches from those east coast/midwest DIII schools bypass the big DA showcase opportunities and focus on places where they know the kids can get in and are likely to be interested in that type of school.  If the coach is interested, then it won't matter if you're DA or not as long as they have pull with Admissions in their school.


You really should look at the profile of incoming freshman recruits at these high end universities.  Over half, if not the most are from DA system, at least in the mens side.  

Its not the DA coach will help the player get in, but these college coaches know the DA directors at well known programs.  Its their personal relationship that makes the difference.  One of the first things college coach ask the player is who does the player play for by coach's name.

As for the college coach having a pull, it depends on the school and the league. Many recruited players are not accepted at Ivys or MIT, CalTech types as they do not meet the profile of generally accepted students - recruited or not.


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## Dargle (Nov 21, 2018)

mirage said:


> You really should look at the profile of incoming freshman recruits at these high end universities.  Over half, if not the most are from DA system, at least in the mens side.
> 
> Its not the DA coach will help the player get in, but these college coaches know the DA directors at well known programs.  Its their personal relationship that makes the difference.  One of the first things college coach ask the player is who does the player play for by coach's name.
> 
> As for the college coach having a pull, it depends on the school and the league. Many recruited players are not accepted at Ivys or MIT, CalTech types as they do not meet the profile of generally accepted students - recruited or not.


I haven't seen the data that backs up your "over half" statement, but the relevant question isn't how many players on the roster are former DA players anyway since it may be the product of selection bias (i.e., it may be that most youth players who want to continue playing in college eventually move to DA). The relevant question is whether they made it onto the roster because of DA, because of one of the recruitment mentors that have popped up in the last decade, or because of something else like their high school coach.  As with everything associated with college admissions, whether DA makes a difference depends upon the school, in part because it is so hard to get into top schools nowadays and coaches don't want to waste their time and any influence they might have in admissions.  Some schools/leagues are definitely DA-heavy.  Others less so.  For example, in the University Athletic Association this year (a league which has top academic schools like Wash U, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory etc), the men's MVP was a socal player who played in Coast Soccer League his whole youth career and never went DA.  The more important point is the part of my statement that you did not quote, which is that some non-DA clubs place a lot of players in academically strong colleges, suggesting that the answer to the OP's question is that a DA can be helpful, but for some schools and clubs, it might not be necessary.


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## Dummy (Nov 21, 2018)

Dargle said:


> I haven't seen the data that backs up your "over half" statement, but the relevant question isn't how many players on the roster are former DA players anyway since it may be the product of selection bias (i.e., it may be that most youth players who want to continue playing in college eventually move to DA). The relevant question is whether they made it onto the roster because of DA, because of one of the recruitment mentors that have popped up in the last decade, or because of something else like their high school coach.  As with everything associated with college admissions, whether DA makes a difference depends upon the school, in part because it is so hard to get into top schools nowadays and coaches don't want to waste their time and any influence they might have in admissions.  Some schools/leagues are definitely DA-heavy.  Others less so.  For example, in the University Athletic Association this year (a league which has top academic schools like Wash U, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Emory etc), the men's MVP was a socal player who played in Coast Soccer League his whole youth career and never went DA.  The more important point is the part of my statement that you did not quote, which is that some non-DA clubs place a lot of players in academically strong colleges, suggesting that the answer to the OP's question is that a DA can be helpful, but for some schools and clubs, it might not be necessary.


Great points!

For all D3 schools, everyone should remember that players and coaches are generally able to talk freely - the D1 restrictions do not apply.  This is very important if your player is considering highly academic D3 schools because these college coaches can give you a realistic assessment about where your player stands academically and athletically at any time.  

My player has been in direct contact with these coaches since sophomore year to discuss both school and soccer.  Having just observed my player complete this process, my conclusion is that there was nothing for the club or club coach to do other than train my player to play soccer.  Clubs and club coaches can’t and don’t really help with college admissions the way that many seem to suggest that they can.


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## Paul Spacey (Nov 21, 2018)

Dummy said:


> My player has been in direct contact with these coaches since sophomore year to discuss both school and soccer. Having just observed my player complete this process, my conclusion is that there was nothing for the club or club coach to do other than train my player to play soccer. Clubs and club coaches can’t and don’t really help with college admissions the way that many seem to suggest that they can.


Interesting to read. We have a coach at our club who went through the college recruitment process first-hand and then had a recruitment franchise for a number of years (as well as working with a D3 college on the recruitment side of things). He provides guidance to our high school players on recruitment but he maintains that clubs and club coaches have very little influence on college admissions.

I’m interested to hear more opinions on this because it’s something I am new to but want to learn more. My priority is training the kids at our club but if there is additional help we can give with college admissions via relationships etc with colleges and scouts, of course it would be good to provide that. 

I appreciate any advice or first-hand experience, thank you!


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## timbuck (Nov 21, 2018)

I'd love to hear what college coaches think of the club scene/club coaches.  I am sure there are some longstanding relationships that go a long way.
But if someone from a smaller club calls up Anson Dorrance to tell him about a superstar playing in a corn field in Kansas, will he listen?


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## meatsweats (Nov 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I'd love to hear what college coaches think of the club scene/club coaches.  I am sure there are some longstanding relationships that go a long way.
> But if someone from a smaller club calls up Anson Dorrance to tell him about a superstar playing in a corn field in Kansas, will he listen?


I don't know, but I'm willing to take my chances at this point. Super disappointed in big box names and money grubbing coaches and clubs. Watching college soccer of late, it's not impressive and the U17's got their asses handed to them today at WWC against Germany. Whatever we're doing, it's not working.


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## El Clasico (Nov 22, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I'd love to hear what college coaches think of the club scene/club coaches.  I am sure there are some longstanding relationships that go a long way.
> But if someone from a smaller club calls up Anson Dorrance to tell him about a superstar playing in a corn field in Kansas, will he listen?


Short answer...Yes!


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