# D1 college soccer under threat



## jpeter

I'm generally optimistic but really concerned for those revenue negative college sports. 

After already losing march madness and football attendance and revenue now in peril I hoping there is a way out? 

Division I college soccer under threat:








						Division I college soccer under threat
					

Division I conferences want temporary waivers from the NCAA to reduce the minimum number of sports a school must sponsor.




					www.socceramerica.com
				



b

byPaul Kennedy @pkedit,
Leaders of 18 college coaches' organizations representing so-called non-revenue or Olympic sports, including United Soccer Coaches, have sent a letter to NCAA president *Mark Emmert* opposing the request for emergency legislative relief from 27 of the 32 Division I conferences to reduce or waive several Division I membership requirements.

These conferences want to give their schools the flexibility to cut expenses related to running their athletic programs in response to revenue shortfalls caused by the coronavirus pandemic and economic downturn.

*Save College Sports:*
Letter | Petition

The waiver request that has leaders of non-revenue Division I sports the most fearful: reducing the requirement about the minimum number of sports a school must sponsor will put many non-revenue sports on the chopping block.

*Division I landscape:* NCAA Division I conferences are broken into two subdivisions: FBS (Football Bowl Subdivision) schools and non-FBS schools.

FBS schools play in one of the 10 conferences that have top-flight college football programs (Power 5 and Group of 5). Non-FBS schools are mostly smaller schools, some of which have football and compete in the FCS (Football Championship Subdivision)

FBS schools must field at least 16 teams, with a minimum of six men's teams and a minimum of eight women's teams. Non-FBS Division I schools must field at least 14 teams. (Division II requirements include: minimum of five men's teams and five women's teams or four men's teams and six women's teams. Division III requirements include: minimum of five men's teams and five women's teams.)

*Soccer participation:* Of the 32 conferences, 31 sponsor women's soccer and 24 sponsor men's soccer though not all schools in a conference have varsity soccer (more so on the men's side, where several conferences have the minimum number of members to qualify for an automatic bid in the NCAA Tournament).

In 2018-19, soccer ranked second in all Division I women's sports in terms of participation (behind only track & field) and fourth in all Division I men's sports in terms of participation (behind football, track & field and baseball).

*Revenue threat:* College athletics is particularly vulnerable to a drop in revenues in response to the pandemic and economic downturn.

“We’re an enterprise that is solely operated by those who choose to support us with their discretionary income," Texas athletic director *Chris Del Conte* told The Athletic recently. "Whether it be television, season tickets, all the people who donate money — all of those things are predicated on having events.” Already, $375 million in television revenues were lost with the cancellation of the NCAA men’s basketball tournament in March.

The big concern is that the college football season will not go forward in the fall, or be delayed until a later date -- yes, there is talk of playing in the winter and spring in 2021. "If we can’t play football this fall," Iowa State athletic director *Jamie Pollard* told The Athletic. "I mean it’s Ice Age time."

(Everyone agrees that college sports won't return until campuses are re-opened for students to return and resume on-site classes.)

*Who are seeking waivers?* The five Group of 5 conferences -- the smaller FBS conferences -- want four-year waivers, while the 22 non-FBS conferences want two-year waivers with an option to extend them to up to four years.

“A blanket waiver for relief will provide institutions the ability to make prudent and necessary decisions for the financial well-being of the institution," the commissioners of the Group of Five said in a letter to Emmert on April 10.

*What's the response of the non-revenue sports?* The Intercollegiate Coach Association Coalition argues slashing opportunities for students in non-revenue sports -- 141,483 student-athletes participated in 2018-19 -- is not the solution.

It noted that graduation rates and donation rates in these sports are higher than their non-athletic peers, and they generated $3.6 billion in tuition and fees to their universities, an amount nearly equal what it costs to provide opportunities to play collegiate sports.

On the waiver request, the non-revenue coaches group's position is:

"Reducing the minimum sports sponsorship requirement that would open the door to eliminating sports should not be an option. We are all in this together, and we are ready, eager, and willing to partner with the NCAA to find creative solutions for the challenges to come. America’s students have had so much taken from them. Now is not the time to cut them off from yet another critical institution that makes university life so special."

*Power 5 conferences (FBS):*
*ACC, *Big Ten, Big-12, *Pac-12, SEC.

*Group of 5 conferences (FBS):*
*American, *Conference USA, *Mid-American, Mountain West, *Sun Belt.


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## eastbaysoccer

I'll assume the womens soccer at the BIG west and WCC will survive as their funding comes from tuition.


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## espola

eastbaysoccer said:


> I'll assume the womens soccer at the BIG west and WCC will survive as their funding comes from tuition.


It's not exactly tuition at the UC and Cal State schools - it's student activity fees of several hundred dollars per year per student at UC schools.


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## jpeter

espola said:


> It's not exactly tuition at the UC and Cal State schools - it's student activity fees of several hundred dollars per year per student at UC schools.


Amid coronavirus, Cal State Fullerton to hold fall classes online








						Cal State Fullerton preparing to go online this fall. Will others follow?
					

Cal State Fullerton says that amid  coronavirus uncertainty it will prepare to start the fall semester with online instruction. Will other campuses follow suit?




					www.latimes.com
				




NCAA already made statements that college Athletics will only return when the students are  back on campus.

Don't think Fullerton is a D1 but they do have athletic programs that are going to be affected.


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## espola

jpeter said:


> Amid coronavirus, Cal State Fullerton to hold fall classes online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cal State Fullerton preparing to go online this fall. Will others follow?
> 
> 
> Cal State Fullerton says that amid  coronavirus uncertainty it will prepare to start the fall semester with online instruction. Will other campuses follow suit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA already made statements that college Athletics will only return when the students are  back on campus.
> 
> Don't think Fullerton is a D1 but they do have athletic programs that are going to be affected.


Fullerton is D1.  They play in Big West Conference.


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## MacDre

I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


Losing college soccer is a bad thing because 9_% of female college soccer players don't play beyond that and an education has enormous value to them.  And I think many are VERY entertaining.  Especially if dad and DD can live vicariously through those young ladies they see on tv.  Furthermore, how many of those that DO go professional ever make enough to provide a decent lifestyle?  And what do you think is "good for development"?  Where are there well developed female soccer players, that skipped college in the U.S., making a good living?  And I think it IS mostly for the school.  Nobody is playing basketball at Kentucky because of anything other than Calipari and the NBA.  Similar deal, right?  You can play for Stanford, UCLA, Cal and so many more, and know you walk away with a career rather than living with 2 other players, in a 3 bedroom apartment, so you can eat.


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## lafalafa

eastbaysoccer said:


> I'll assume the womens soccer at the BIG west and WCC will survive as their funding comes from tuition.


Tuition revenue is going to be reduced and budgets tighten no two ways about that.   Some won't be able to afford anything but community colleges going forward and others won't see the value on paying the bigger bucks for online when they can do the same locally at a community for a lot less.

I'm almost sure some form of college soccer will exist but scholarship money for that is igoing to be reduced in the short term at some point or already has.




MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


About money...

Parents have a vested interest.

Some Club coaches supplement their income by also coaching College, scouting, etc.

Choosing leagues, chasing the scholarships, trying to get preferred admissions all for what? if college soccer goes away or gets reduced the youth soccer pyramid  of money crumbles somewhat.


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## timbuck

jpeter said:


> Amid coronavirus, Cal State Fullerton to hold fall classes online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cal State Fullerton preparing to go online this fall. Will others follow?
> 
> 
> Cal State Fullerton says that amid  coronavirus uncertainty it will prepare to start the fall semester with online instruction. Will other campuses follow suit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA already made statements that college Athletics will only return when the students are  back on campus.
> 
> Don't think Fullerton is a D1 but they do have athletic programs that are going to be affected.


I’ve got a few years until my oldest is in college-  but I think if she only has “online” classes as an option, she’d be taking a gap year.  Classes are important. But the social aspect, the connections, the group work are what make college worth the crazy amount of money they charge.


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## younothat

timbuck said:


> I’ve got a few years until my oldest is in college-  but I think if she only has “online” classes as an option, she’d be taking a gap year.  Classes are important. But the social aspect, the connections, the group work are what make college worth the crazy amount of money they charge.


100% on that for our College Junior Daughter, 2020 Incoming Son not happy either about the on-line prospects. 

Both went to great lengths and many  visits to select universities that they loved from the campuses, atmosphere,, fellow students,, professors, facilities, housing, and the like.


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## Nefutous

younothat said:


> 100% on that for our College Junior Daughter, 2020 Incoming Son not happy either about the on-line prospects.
> 
> Both went to great lengths and many  visits to select universities that they loved from the campuses, atmosphere,, fellow students,, professors, facilities, housing, and the like.


Gap year makes sense for incoming students if only online classes are offered because they are going to miss out on the important social aspects of freshmen year where they make friends that will help guide them through  college. If classes are online my college junior and sophomore plan to load up on their harder classes since they will have more time without internships, research, work and parties.


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## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Losing college soccer is a bad thing because 9_% of female college soccer players don't play beyond that and an education has enormous value to them.  And I think many are VERY entertaining.  Especially if dad and DD can live vicariously through those young ladies they see on tv.  Furthermore, how many of those that DO go professional ever make enough to provide a decent lifestyle?  And what do you think is "good for development"?  Where are there well developed female soccer players, that skipped college in the U.S., making a good living?  And I think it IS mostly for the school.  Nobody is playing basketball at Kentucky because of anything other than Calipari and the NBA.  Similar deal, right?  You can play for Stanford, UCLA, Cal and so many more, and know you walk away with a career rather than living with 2 other players, in a 3 bedroom apartment, so you can eat.


So if 90% or more don’t play after college, why not focus on school and play soccer for fun?  Playing D1 soccer is not a prerequisite for attending university.  Parents can still show up to their kids pick up games and cheer them on.  They can live vicariously through their kid getting a degree and achieving their primary goal.
Basketball and football are self sustaining and athletes get full scholarships.  I believe scholarship money for soccer is provided by basketball and football so the analysis is very different.  I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people.
I think a system that is good for development is one that actually adheres to the rules of the game and doesn’t have unlimited substitutions.  I think college soccer sufficed previously because the world is so sexist and the US was one of the few places supporting women.
I get that there’s no money in women’s soccer but who cares if it makes a young lady happy. I also know several broke lawyers, so maybe we should advise against law school too?  I personally believe that if a person focuses on what they love that the money will come because it makes the heavy lifting easier.


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## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> So if 90% or more don’t play after college, why not focus on school and play soccer for fun?  Playing D1 soccer is not a prerequisite for attending university.  Parents can still show up to their kids pick up games and cheer them on.  They can live vicariously through their kid getting a degree and achieving their primary goal.
> Basketball and football are self sustaining and athletes get full scholarships.  I believe scholarship money for soccer is provided by basketball and football so the analysis is very different.  I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people.
> I think a system that is good for development is one that actually adheres to the rules of the game and doesn’t have unlimited substitutions.  I think college soccer sufficed previously because the world is so sexist and the US was one of the few places supporting women.
> I get that there’s no money in women’s soccer but who cares if it makes a young lady happy. I also know several broke lawyers, so maybe we should advise against law school too?  I personally believe that if a person focuses on what they love that the money will come because it makes the heavy lifting easier.


I think you should be banned from ever posting again for such rubbish!


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## Kicknit22

What a dipshit!!


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## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I think you should be banned from ever posting again for such rubbish!


Your statement is conclusory.  Please support your conclusion with thoughtful analysis .  I bet you can’t!


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## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> What a dipshit!!


Who?


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## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


Couple questions for you...Did you ever play college athletics?  Do you know what it is about, as a participant?  For the vast majority it’s not about going pro...that’s for the elite of the elite of the elite.  If you did by play I would be very surprised based on the post.

We all know there is no money in pro soccer for women and most men in the US in general.  That’s not breaking news as you mentioned.

There is so much that be learned from sport, being on a team, leading, contributing, understanding your role, dealing with adversity, defeat, success, the list goes on and on...most importantly in my opinion competition.

Representing your school, pride, etc. There is so much to gain from playing/participating in competitive sports especially at the collegiate level.

Pair these learnings with a great school and you have a pretty good combination and should have some great opportunities ahead. In fact, there are many companies with leadership and management programs that place a significant emphasis on prior participation in competitive sports in University.  There are reasons for that.

Take a look at this....








						The 1 Trait 94 Percent of C-Suite Women Share (And How to Get It)
					

You can get it even without enrolling in a single MBA class.




					www.inc.com
				




Who knows what is going to happen with collegiate sports.  It’s going to be a whole new world.  I’m sure there will be some fallout and there will be shuttering of some sports and programs.  It’s sad. 

My wife and I both played sports in college, some of our college teammates are our best friends still to this day.  Still keep in touch with our coaches who were great roles models and teachers.  Speaking for myself, I would regret not having those experiences.

In my mind It’s not about the quality, if you like watching the product on tv, if they play possession or direct, it’s about the experience for the individual and what they get from it.  Experiences outside the classroom are just as important and those in it and can shape you just as much.  It would be a shame for that experience to not be available for kids. 

Maybe you can get those same experiences playing for a school club team, I don’t know...it just sounds and feels different to me (Like youth Club compared to Rec - different mentalities).  Maybe I’m wrong and just not open to it yet.  We don’t know what the future will bring and the 350 Women's Div 1 Programs out there may contract some.   Time will tell.  It’s really rough out there.

From your other post regarding “Self-Sustaining Sports”, university funding, paying athletes etc., lots of topics to cover...that’s a fun one we can get down a rabbit hole on sometime..we can bring in the arts, and other programs at universities and although not revenue generating create a lot of value for the school to attract applicants interested in those areas.  Too much to cover.

I guess if you think the product is trash and the experience does not matter, why are on this board?


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## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> Couple questions for you...Did you ever play college athletics?  Do you know what it is about, as a participant?  For the vast majority it’s not about going pro...that’s for the elite of the elite of the elite.  If you did by play I would be very surprised based on the post.
> 
> We all know there is no money in pro soccer for women and most men in the US in general.  That’s not breaking news as you mentioned.
> 
> There is so much that be learned from sport, being on a team, leading, contributing, understanding your role, dealing with adversity, defeat, success, the list goes on and on...most importantly in my opinion competition.
> 
> Representing your school, pride, etc. There is so much to gain from playing/participating in competitive sports especially at the collegiate level.
> 
> Pair these learnings with a great school and you have a pretty good combination and should have some great opportunities ahead. In fact, there are many companies with leadership and management programs that place a significant emphasis on prior participation in competitive sports in University.  There are reasons for that.
> 
> Take a look at this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1 Trait 94 Percent of C-Suite Women Share (And How to Get It)
> 
> 
> You can get it even without enrolling in a single MBA class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows what is going to happen with collegiate sports.  It’s going to be a whole new world.  I’m sure there will be some fallout and there will be shuttering of some sports and programs.  It’s sad.
> 
> My wife and I both played sports in college, some of our college teammates are our best friends still to this day.  Still keep in touch with our coaches who were great roles models and teachers.  Speaking for myself, I would regret not having those experiences.
> 
> In my mind It’s not about the quality, if you like watching the product on tv, if they play possession or direct, it’s about the experience for the individual and what they get from it.  Experiences outside the classroom are just as important and those in it and can shape you just as much.  It would be a shame for that experience to not be available for kids.
> 
> Maybe you can get those same experiences playing for a school club team, I don’t know...it just sounds and feels different to me (Like youth Club compared to Rec - different mentalities).  Maybe I’m wrong and just not open to it yet.  We don’t know what the future will bring and the 350 Women's Div 1 Programs out there may contract some.   Time will tell.  It’s really rough out there.
> 
> From your other post regarding “Self-Sustaining Sports”, university funding, paying athletes etc., lots of topics to cover...that’s a fun one we can get down a rabbit hole on sometime..we can bring in the arts, and other programs at universities and although not revenue generating create a lot of value for the school to attract applicants interested in those areas.  Too much to cover.
> 
> I guess if you think the product is trash and the experience does not matter, why are on this board?


I agree about the benefit of women playing soccer.  However, I think a kid can pick up the same leadership qualities playing club sports.  I’m sure you could have also met great friends in a wide array of other activities at your university too-so I don’t find this point compelling.  I am also not advocating to take away soccer, I am advocating for an improvement of the current soccer environment.  My frame of reference is Mexico where young ladies can play for professional clubs and attend university.  The young ladies in Europe are playing for professional clubs and attending university too.  I think if all MLS clubs had women’s pro teams that would be a much safer and beneficial environment for our young ladies.  If college soccer goes away that will force pro teams to do what they should already be doing.  
The reason I am on this board is to share my perspective just like you and everyone else.  I call it how I see it and will continue to do so.


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## timbuck

If D1 college soccer goes away- do those players play d2?


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## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> I agree about the benefit of women playing soccer.  However, I think a kid can pick up the same leadership qualities playing club sports.  I’m sure you could have also met great friends in a wide array of other activities at your university too-so I don’t find this point compelling.  I am also not advocating to take away soccer, I am advocating for an improvement of the current soccer environment.  My frame of reference is Mexico where young ladies can play for professional clubs and attend university.  The young ladies in Europe are playing for professional clubs and attending university too.  I think if all MLS clubs had women’s pro teams that would be a much safer and beneficial environment for our young ladies.  If college soccer goes away that will force pro teams to do what they should already be doing.
> The reason I am on this board is to share my perspective just like you and everyone else.  I call it how I see it and will continue to do so.


Fair enough. I think we are in different lanes. For our DD the end goal (can’t speak for others) is this helps her get into a university suited for her to get her started on her adult journey. The goal is for her get a quality education, build a life, family, and career. Professional soccer is not even a thought. If the unlikely opportunity did come, maybe help subsidize her for a year or two for the experience. It’s a hard way to make a living and not much money in the Women’s game, yet. $50k Max and $20k Min for the NWSL, do the international leagues pay better? I don’t know. Hopefully that changes for those that want to pursue it. The pro pathway on the women’s side just seems like a very tough road and there are many more financially rewarding options available. Best wishes to you are your DD working toward and achieving the goal of going pro.


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## dad4

To be fair, I have a hard time justifying the use of student fees to support athletics.  Raises the cost to those who just want a degree.

I did play a sport during college, and had a great time.  But I don't see how most other students benefited from my use of their fees.


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## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Fair enough. I think we are in different lanes. For our DD the end goal (can’t speak for others) is this helps her get into a university suited for her to get her started on her adult journey. The goal is for her get a quality education, build a life, family, and career. Professional soccer is not even a thought. If the unlikely opportunity did come, maybe help subsidize her for a year or two for the experience. It’s a hard way to make a living and not much money in the Women’s game, yet. $50k Max and $20k Min for the NWSL, do the international leagues pay better? I don’t know. Hopefully that changes for those that want to pursue it. The pro pathway on the women’s side just seems like a very tough road and there are many more financially rewarding options available. Best wishes to you are your DD working toward and achieving the goal of going pro.


I understand all this more.  We all come from different lanes too.  Interesting topic about college life and soccer.  The top, top players probably need to find something else quickly after HS School.  I really like the club idea for college.  Let the top players play pro and also go to college for free some how.  That will off set a parent having to pay so the kid can be a pro.  Free college and a few bucks playing with the best of the best around the world.  The goal for my dd is to also be the best she can be at the highest level of soccer in the USA and it's a mess.  I like the idea of going to a college game but now days it seems like it will get cut.  I would be sad but it is what it is.  Like I said a million times, I was all about the pros.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> So if 90% or more don’t play after college, why not focus on school and play soccer for fun?  Playing D1 soccer is not a prerequisite for attending university.  Parents can still show up to their kids pick up games and cheer them on.  They can live vicariously through their kid getting a degree and achieving their primary goal.
> Basketball and football are self sustaining and athletes get full scholarships.  I believe scholarship money for soccer is provided by basketball and football so the analysis is very different.  I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people.
> I think a system that is good for development is one that actually adheres to the rules of the game and doesn’t have unlimited substitutions.  I think college soccer sufficed previously because the world is so sexist and the US was one of the few places supporting women.
> I get that there’s no money in women’s soccer but who cares if it makes a young lady happy. I also know several broke lawyers, so maybe we should advise against law school too?  I personally believe that if a person focuses on what they love that the money will come because it makes the heavy lifting easier.


Does it bother you that white students subsidize a free education for black kids that would otherwise not attend college at all or play professionally if it weren't for football or that extended education of 1 year of basketball?  Are you kidding me?


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## Nefutous

dad4 said:


> To be fair, I have a hard time justifying the use of student fees to support athletics.  Raises the cost to those who just want a degree.
> 
> I did play a sport during college, and had a great time.  But I don't see how most other students benefited from my use of their fees.


You would think that most students would feel the same way but in 2016 UCSD students voted by a 3:1 margin to double the fees to move from D2 to D1.


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## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Does it bother you that white students subsidize a free education for black kids that would otherwise not attend college at all or play professionally if it weren't for football or that extended education of 1 year of basketball?  Are you kidding me?


I’m confused.  I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I’m confused.  I have no idea what you are talking about.


This... this is what I'm talking about: "_I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people_."

For starters, how do you know where kids are from?  And who is excluding black people?  Which communities?  If we're talking about basketball, because that's really the only one dominated by black athletes (football to some extent), let's cut right to the chase.  How many black college basketball players would gain admission to a 4-year university at all... let alone on someone else's dime?  And don't tell me "people pay to see Deandre Ayton."  Yeah, they pay to watch these guys play 1 year.  How many actually graduate?  Who is buying the tickets to watch them?  The same white families that traditionally exclude them?  Who paid Deandre's way from the Bahamas to a prep school in San Diego... then Phoenix... because his step dad is a plumber?  Probably some evil white guy paid the check for that, right? 

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/graduation-rates-black-players-power-schools/story?id=53668482


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## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> This... this is what I'm talking about: "_I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people_."
> 
> For starters, how do you know where kids are from?  And who is excluding black people?  Which communities?  If we're talking about basketball, because that's really the only one dominated by black athletes (football to some extent), let's cut right to the chase.  How many black college basketball players would gain admission to a 4-year university at all... let alone on someone else's dime?  And don't tell me "people pay to see Deandre Ayton."  Yeah, they pay to watch these guys play 1 year.  How many actually graduate?  Who is buying the tickets to watch them?  The same white families that traditionally exclude them?  Who paid Deandre's way from the Bahamas to a prep school in San Diego... then Phoenix... because his step dad is a plumber?  Probably some evil white guy paid the check for that, right?
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/graduation-rates-black-players-power-schools/story?id=53668482


Damn homie, do you need a hug?  I’ll be more clear.
I’m advocating for low income folks.  The white dudes in my hood ride Harley’s, are full patched, and many live in trailer parks.  They don’t drive BMW’s or sip expensive lattes.  I’m actually an expert at college admissions for poor folks and first generation college students.  And poor whites comprise the largest segment of this group.  However, it’s more difficult to put together a solid package for a poor white kid because many affluent whites already attend college.

It pisses me off a little that kids from Schools like Mission San Jose, Monte vista, and Piedmont are taking college spots away from white kid’s in Vallejo and Rodeo that live in trailer parks only because their parents can afford to “pad” their college applications by paying for club soccer.

It further pisses me off that there are not any solid soccer options in my community along HWY 80.  Vallejo, Rodeo, Richmond, S. Berkeley, and Oakland because those majority white communities with better funded schools are seen as profitable.  To add insult to injury universities pimp kids from communities similar to those along the 80 to raise funds for programs to support communities that have neglected them their entire life-why is this okay?  Outlaw, why are soccer clubs/pay to upgrade your university type options only available in uber rich areas?


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> To be fair, I have a hard time justifying the use of student fees to support athletics.  Raises the cost to those who just want a degree.
> 
> I did play a sport during college, and had a great time.  But I don't see how most other students benefited from my use of their fees.


In the two examples I have learned about, UC Davis and UCSD, the students voted for the fees as part of the process of transitioning from D2 to D1.


----------



## dad4

The Outlaw said:


> This... this is what I'm talking about: "_I personally find it disturbing that the sports that are dominated by black athletes are subsidizing sports dominated by white athletes that are from communities that have traditionally excluded black people_."
> 
> For starters, how do you know where kids are from?  And who is excluding black people?  Which communities?  If we're talking about basketball, because that's really the only one dominated by black athletes (football to some extent), let's cut right to the chase.  How many black college basketball players would gain admission to a 4-year university at all... let alone on someone else's dime?  And don't tell me "people pay to see Deandre Ayton."  Yeah, they pay to watch these guys play 1 year.  How many actually graduate?  Who is buying the tickets to watch them?  The same white families that traditionally exclude them?  Who paid Deandre's way from the Bahamas to a prep school in San Diego... then Phoenix... because his step dad is a plumber?  Probably some evil white guy paid the check for that, right?
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/graduation-rates-black-players-power-schools/story?id=53668482


For men’s basketball and football, call it what it is: a minor league.  Then pay the players.  

For non-money sports, at least ask what can be done to lower the expenses.  I’m still wondering why it makes sense for Stanford to play Penn in anything.  At best, it is $20,000 in plane tickets for a not very good game.  Add in what boosters spend, and it is a lot more.


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> In the two examples I have learned about, UC Davis and UCSD, the students voted for the fees as part of the process of transitioning from D2 to D1.


I think this had more to do with football and basketball.  Also UCD and UCSD are great schools and have many #1 programs.  I think these students were aiming to get the same notoriety and portability of their degrees as UCLA and Cal have through their D1 programs.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Damn homie, do you need a hug?  I’ll be more clear.
> I’m advocating for low income folks.  The white dudes in my hood ride Harley’s, are full patched, and many live in trailer parks.  They don’t drive BMW’s or sip expensive lattes.  I’m actually an expert at college admissions for poor folks and first generation college students.  And poor whites comprise the largest segment of this group.  However, it’s more difficult to put together a solid package for a poor white kid because many affluent whites already attend college.
> 
> It pisses me off a little that kids from Schools like Mission San Jose, Monte vista, and Piedmont are taking college spots away from white kid’s in Vallejo and Rodeo that live in trailer parks only because their parents can afford to “pad” their college applications by paying for club soccer.
> 
> It further pisses me off that there are not any solid soccer options in my community along HWY 80.  Vallejo, Rodeo, Richmond, S. Berkeley, and Oakland because those majority white communities with better funded schools are seen as profitable.  To add insult to injury universities pimp kids from communities similar to those along the 80 to raise funds for programs to support communities that have neglected them their entire life-why is this okay?  Outlaw, why are soccer clubs/pay to upgrade your university type options only available in uber rich areas?


To be fair, club soccer as a college fund is a sucker’s bet.  

If you don’t believe me, add up total soccer scholarship money per year for all schools.  Then add up total club fees per year for all clubs.  It’s not even close.

As for admissions, if your goal is getting into college and doing well there, hitting the books seems a lot more direct.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> To be fair, club soccer as a college fund is a sucker’s bet.
> 
> If you don’t believe me, add up total soccer scholarship money per year for all schools.  Then add up total club fees per year for all clubs.  It’s not even close.
> 
> As for admissions, if your goal is getting into college and doing well there, hitting the books seems a lot more direct.


Yeah but for poor first generation college students getting into a elite school is like winning the lottery.  As long as they graduate.  They don’t have to finish at the top of their class.
Also, many of the kids who are padding their applications don’t need to because they have college educated parents and a strong network.  Poor kids need elite schools to build a network and attain cultural capital.  

I’m more concerned about the lack of opportunities for certain communities.  I also understand that the money available through soccer is nominal, I just wanted to point out the institutionalized classism in the process and to note that the college admissions game is not a meritocracy.


----------



## MacDre

MacDre said:


> Yeah but for poor first generation college students getting into a elite school is like winning the lottery.  As long as they graduate.  They don’t have to finish at the top of their class.
> Also, many of the kids who are padding their applications don’t need to because they have college educated parents and a strong network.  Poor kids need elite schools to build a network and attain cultural capital.
> 
> I’m more concerned about the lack of opportunities for certain communities.  I also understand that the money available through soccer is nominal, I just wanted to point out the institutionalized classism in the process and to note that the college admissions game is not a meritocracy.


I also agree hitting the books is fundamental!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Damn homie, do you need a hug?  I’ll be more clear.
> I’m advocating for low income folks.  The white dudes in my hood ride Harley’s, are full patched, and many live in trailer parks.  They don’t drive BMW’s or sip expensive lattes.  I’m actually an expert at college admissions for poor folks and first generation college students.  And poor whites comprise the largest segment of this group.  However, it’s more difficult to put together a solid package for a poor white kid because many affluent whites already attend college.
> 
> It pisses me off a little that kids from Schools like Mission San Jose, Monte vista, and Piedmont are taking college spots away from white kid’s in Vallejo and Rodeo that live in trailer parks only because their parents can afford to “pad” their college applications by paying for club soccer.
> 
> It further pisses me off that there are not any solid soccer options in my community along HWY 80.  Vallejo, Rodeo, Richmond, S. Berkeley, and Oakland because those majority white communities with better funded schools are seen as profitable.  To add insult to injury universities pimp kids from communities similar to those along the 80 to raise funds for programs to support communities that have neglected them their entire life-why is this okay?  Outlaw, why are soccer clubs/pay to upgrade your university type options only available in uber rich areas?


So you think kids in Vallejo and Rodeo, living in trailer parks, could afford college without someone else paying the tuition (scholarship)?  College isn't an entitlement.  Lots of people would love to live in Atherton but can't because they can't afford it.  Lots of people would love to drive an $80k car but can't because they can't afford it.  Where do you draw the line?  Life isn't fair.  And ask yourself this, Dre... what happens if everyone has access to college.  What does that do to the value of a degree?  What happens when you make things free and easily attainable?  Does that mean a company only has to now offer $40k, instead of $60k a year, because they have 50 qualified applicants instead of 10?  You need balance.  It's not fair, but these idiots that want to make college free haven't considered what that does to the big picture.  And tell me how many kids aren't getting into colleges because athletes, who otherwise have ZERO shot at getting into that school, take their spots and aren't paying anything?  It works both ways.  Your point about padding college applications, in my opinion, isn't valid.  

How do you call comp soccer "pimping"?  I have no sympathy for parents that are upset about the DA collapsing.  They knew that was a risk and were willing to pay to send a 13-year old to other states to play a game.  Really?  That's ALL about ego and nothing else.  But they elected to do it and nobody was blindsided by the rules.  And there's only a few of us idiots left thinking a college scholarship of $5k per year will somehow compensate for the $75k we paid for 10 years of comp.  You're also ignoring the fact that California soccer rosters, especially men's, are full of Hispanic kids that wouldn't be going to Cal or Davis or Santa Barbara, etc if it weren't for soccer.  The grades were there but the funding wasn't.  I can't speak to other regions but it's the case here.  Soccer can open doors for everyone and that's not pimping.  So are you NOW saying it pisses you off there's no pimping available on HWY 80?


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Yeah but for poor first generation college students getting into a elite school is like winning the lottery.  As long as they graduate.  They don’t have to finish at the top of their class.
> Also, many of the kids who are padding their applications don’t need to because they have college educated parents and a strong network.  Poor kids need elite schools to build a network and attain cultural capital.
> 
> I’m more concerned about the lack of opportunities for certain communities.  I also understand that the money available through soccer is nominal, I just wanted to point out the institutionalized classism in the process and to note that the college admissions game is not a meritocracy.


Is there evidence that D1 sports scholarships work out for lower income students who don’t go pro?  

My impression was that, for a lot of them, they aren’t ready for the classes at that school and end up with no degree.  Or, if they get a degree, it is in a field with few job prospects.


----------



## MSK357

MacDre said:


> Yeah but for poor first generation college students getting into a elite school is like winning the lottery.  As long as they graduate.  They don’t have to finish at the top of their class.
> Also, many of the kids who are padding their applications don’t need to because they have college educated parents and a strong network.  Poor kids need elite schools to build a network and attain cultural capital.
> 
> I’m more concerned about the lack of opportunities for certain communities.  I also understand that the money available through soccer is nominal, I just wanted to point out the institutionalized classism in the process and to note that the college admissions game is not a meritocracy.


If it truly was a meritocracy, fewer people of color would be admitted.  College Sports recruiting and Affirmative action allow for certain people of color the opportunity to attend certain colleges.  Of course there is a debate on whether that is fair or not.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn

107,438 people signed and won this petition
					

Stop NCAA athletic programs from being cut during pandemic.




					www.change.org


----------



## MacDre

MSK357 said:


> If it truly was a meritocracy, fewer people of color would be admitted.  College Sports recruiting and Affirmative action allow for certain people of color the opportunity to attend certain colleges.  Of course there is a debate on whether that is fair or not.


Please elaborate.


----------



## Copa9

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


Seriously??  If you are of that mind set, then all athletic programs should be cut.  Heck, we don't need any athletic programs professional or otherwise. I don't find many of the other sports to be entertaining.   We don't "need" the NFL, AFL, NBA, NWSL, MLS, or any European football leagues, etc. etc. etc.  to stay alive. There is no benefit to the public other than entertainment. Sure it provides a career for some, but then again, maybe they should focus on academics in college. We should only focus on things that keep us alive. Heck, we don't need the music industry, we don't need "entertainment" by musicians and singers. Let's all focus on education and people that keep us alive. If you don't find college soccer entertaining, that's fine. Don't watch. If you don't find this forum entertaining, don't read it.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Is there evidence that D1 sports scholarships work out for lower income students who don’t go pro?
> 
> My impression was that, for a lot of them, they aren’t ready for the classes at that school and end up with no degree.  Or, if they get a degree, it is in a field with few job prospects.


That’s goes to the part of neglected communities and underfunded schools.  But take me for example.  I had a young drug addicted mother and no father.  I grew up in the midst of the North Richmond Project Trojans.  I did well enough in college because of the support of the McNair Scholars program.  By time I graduated from UCD my research was being used to overturn 3 strikes legislation.
I went to Hastings and Na’il Benjamin was my roommate.  Hannibal and Marshawn are intelligent too.  Lot’s of smart folks in the hood that just need support.


----------



## MacDre

Copa9 said:


> Seriously??  If you are of that mind set, then all athletic programs should be cut.  Heck, we don't need any athletic programs professional or otherwise. I don't find many of the other sports to be entertaining.   We don't "need" the NFL, AFL, NBA, NWSL, MLS, or any European football leagues, etc. etc. etc.  to stay alive. There is no benefit to the public other than entertainment. Sure it provides a career for some, but then again, maybe they should focus on academics in college. We should only focus on things that keep us alive. Heck, we don't need the music industry, we don't need "entertainment" by musicians and singers. Let's all focus on education and people that keep us alive. If you don't find college soccer entertaining, that's fine. Don't watch. If you don't find this forum entertaining, don't read it.


You have the right to choose the sports that you do and don’t like.  I happen to like soccer.  However, I was very disappointed with the level of play and entertainment factor.  This doesn’t apply to all soccer but I don’t like college soccer.  Sorry.


----------



## SBFDad

MacDre said:


> You have the right to choose the sports that you do and don’t like.  I happen to like soccer.  However, I was very disappointed with the level of play and entertainment factor.  This doesn’t apply to all soccer but I don’t like college soccer.  Sorry.


MacDre, you seem like a bright guy with some good insights, but your view on this issue is pretty cynical and self-centered. The fact that you only see benefit in those college sports that you find “entertaining” is missing the point. The value of those programs are much farther reaching than that. So few kids that play any sport in college go on to play professionally, so why is their continued development in college even a requirement?


----------



## Woobie06

dad4 said:


> To be fair, club soccer as a college fund is a sucker’s bet.
> 
> If you don’t believe me, add up total soccer scholarship money per year for all schools.  Then add up total club fees per year for all clubs.  It’s not even close.
> 
> As for admissions, if your goal is getting into college and doing well there, hitting the books seems a lot more direct.


I agree with you the fees, travel, training, etc. can pay for just about any school over the course of a youth career.  I hope people are not placing bets that their kids soccer ability is going to pay off in a full ride.  

Very few of the kids I know who have recently gone on are on full rides out of the gates, most are a combination of athletic and academic, or just academic.  A lot of these talented kids are also great students and hit the books and are overall high-achievers ahead of the curve.

If you don’t want to pay the money, have your kid play rec or high school.  If you live in an area that is underserved, it may be underserved for a variety of reasons.  There is a reason people don’t want to live there.  There are good places and bad places, some safe, some not. I know many families who I have worked with and currently work with that have moved to a better area to ensure better access to better schools.  There are choices.

As others have said, life is not fair.  It’s not an even playing field, some people get dealt bad cards, some people get lucky, some people work hard and some people are lazy.  Some people are smart and some not so much.  Some people take risks and advantage of opportunities, and some play it safe and won’t take a chance.  It’s not even and expecting it to be equal is a fallacy.  If I make $100k and somebody else makes $50k should I give them $25k so it is fair and we both have $75k.

There was professor I heard about who was discussing socialism with the class and gave a similar example with the students....one received an A the other a C, and the professor told them they would both get B’s.  The A student was pissed, they studied, put in the work and was prepared, the C student was happy, because they got more than they earned.

Score is kept here on variety of levels. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. We don’t all get ribbons for 9th place. People also confuse effort and results. Just because you work hard does not mean you receive the same as the individual who gets results.

People want the level playing field as long as it is not their money.  Are you willing to give up 25%, 30% or more of your income to “level” the playing field?

As I’m sure many of you do, we volunteer, and donate to causes we believe it.  We could probably do more if I am being completely honest.  

If kids want to go to school they can.  Not everyone needs to start at a 4 year university.  JC is a great, lower cost option to get started, complete general ed’s and many of the JC’s have amazing programs with direct pipelines to major universities.  If young adults (18+) really want a college education they can get it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


College sports are a big part of American culture. Removing sports from college, in general, will require a major shift in thinking. Also, if you look at baseball, you can see an amateur path and a college path side by side and the colleges still produce major league players. I won't argue that if we could go back in time and set up our system for colleges and for sports from scratch, we would end up in the same place. But, it's a lot to untangle and I don't see a serious motivation to do it. As for the development of the "elite" players, I believe as long as there is any opportunity to play, those capable of becoming elite will generally get there as their passion and desire to play the game will drive how they invest their time.


----------



## full90

Back to the topic at hand, I’d guess w soccer would be one of the last sports to be cut. Budgets shrink, yes, travel and gear and stuff reduced, yes. But w soccer represents the highest played youth sport in America, and is growing in popularity. 
I’m not in favor of cutting any sports and actually think the government should step in and subsidize the ncaa (if we are going to bail out hotels and airlines why not the ncaa)...that’s how much value I think is in college sports.
But w soccer in college has a great infrastructure, where sports like w lacrosse, rowing, field hockey, rifling etc aren’t as robust or widely offered. Even men’s soccer is dicey with haphazard conferences.

I’d guess w soccer is relatively safe at this point, but if football doesn’t happen or men’s bball is delayed or cancelled then all bets are off.


----------



## MacDre

SBFDad said:


> MacDre, you seem like a bright guy with some good insights, but your view on this issue is pretty cynical and self-centered. The fact that you only see benefit in those college sports that you find “entertaining” is missing the point. The value of those programs are much farther reaching than that. So few kids that play any sport in college go on to play professionally, so why is their continued development in college even a requirement?


Thanks for your input.  I’m not cynical or self-centered but my views are colored by my personal experience.  I have never met a young basketball or football player from my hood that doesn’t want to go pro.  I guess in the hood we separate the scholars from the athletes fairly early.
Could you explain why club sports aren’t adequate for those that have no chance of turning pro?  Be gentle, I’m learning bro.
To be clear, I’m only talking about soccer because I think there’s de facto segregation starting in the youth game.


----------



## full90

If I’m an AD I’m keeping at a minimum:
Football
Men’s and women’s bball
Women’s soccer
Baseball
Softball

next tier
W volleyball
Track
Tennis men’s and womens
Golf men’s and womens

next tier
Swimming


and the news about cal st Fullerton is that they are preparing to go online. No decision is even close to make that call. They have start thinking what fully online would mean. Just like all schools are preparing. Just in case.


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> I agree with you the fees, travel, training, etc. can pay for just about any school over the course of a youth career.  I hope people are not placing bets that their kids soccer ability is going to pay off in a full ride.
> 
> Very few of the kids I know who have recently gone on are on full rides out of the gates, most are a combination of athletic and academic, or just academic.  A lot of these talented kids are also great students and hit the books and are overall high-achievers ahead of the curve.
> 
> If you don’t want to pay the money, have your kid play rec or high school.  If you live in an area that is underserved, it may be underserved for a variety of reasons.  There is a reason people don’t want to live there.  There are good places and bad places, some safe, some not. I know many families who I have worked with and currently work with that have moved to a better area to ensure better access to better schools.  There are choices.
> 
> As others have said, life is not fair.  It’s not an even playing field, some people get dealt bad cards, some people get lucky, some people work hard and some people are lazy.  Some people are smart and some not so much.  Some people take risks and advantage of opportunities, and some play it safe and won’t take a chance.  It’s not even and expecting it to be equal is a fallacy.  If I make $100k and somebody else makes $50k should I give them $25k so it is fair and we both have $75k.
> 
> There was professor I heard about who was discussing socialism with the class and gave a similar example with the students....one received an A the other a C, and the professor told them they would both get B’s.  The A student was pissed, they studied, put in the work and was prepared, the C student was happy, because they got more than they earned.
> 
> Score is kept here on variety of levels. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. We don’t all get ribbons for 9th place. People also confuse effort and results. Just because you work hard does not mean you receive the same as the individual who gets results.
> 
> People want the level playing field as long as it is not their money.  Are you willing to give up 25%, 30% or more of your income to “level” the playing field?
> 
> As I’m sure many of you do, we volunteer, and donate to causes we believe it.  We could probably do more if I am being completely honest.
> 
> If kids want to go to school they can.  Not everyone needs to start at a 4 year university.  JC is a great, lower cost option to get started, complete general ed’s and many of the JC’s have amazing programs with direct pipelines to major universities.  If young adults (18+) really want a college education they can get it.


Wow.  De facto segregation.  White flight.  Environmental racism.  War on drugs.

 I have no problem getting the scholars from my hood into Middle College HS and into Stanford and the Ivies.  I just see a lot of disturbing issues in soccer.  I guess it is what it is.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> That’s goes to the part of neglected communities and underfunded schools.  But take me for example.  I had a young drug addicted mother and no father.  I grew up in the midst of the North Richmond Project Trojans.  I did well enough in college because of the support of the McNair Scholars program.  By time I graduated from UCD my research was being used to overturn 3 strikes legislation.
> I went to Hastings and Na’il Benjamin was my roommate.  Hannibal and Marshawn are intelligent too.  Lot’s of smart folks in the hood that just need support.


----------



## younothat

full90 said:


> If I’m an AD I’m keeping at a minimum:
> Football
> Men’s and women’s bball
> Women’s soccer
> Baseball
> Softball
> 
> next tier
> W volleyball
> Track
> Tennis men’s and womens
> Golf men’s and womens
> 
> next tier
> Swimming
> 
> 
> and the news about cal st Fullerton is that they are preparing to go online. No decision is even close to make that call. They have start thinking what fully online would mean. Just like all schools are preparing. Just in case.


Registration is coming up and they have sent out notices to students that on-line for fall is a possibility according to a few we know that go there.

The Finances of UC and Cal State systems are not looking good right now and even though I signed the petition realistically they will have to cut some programs;

From what article:

"Continuing remote learning will have significant ramifications on university finances, and possibly enrollment, if students balk at paying tuition and fees — about $6,900 annually at Fullerton for California residents — without a full campus experience and decide to take a gap year or attend community college instead.

Campuses already have reported staggering revenue hits from canceled housing and dining contracts, along with increased costs of technology for online learning and deep facilities cleaning.

California State University estimates its lost monthly revenue at about $100 million from student housing, dining, parking and other operations, Uhlenkamp said. Increased costs for technology and health and sanitation supplies will probably increase further, he said.

University of California President Janet Napolitano recently disclosed that campuses have been hit with $310 million in unexpected costs — about 40% of the system’s $775 million monthly revenues in a $9.3-billion core budget."


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> I agree with you the fees, travel, training, etc. can pay for just about any school over the course of a youth career.  I hope people are not placing bets that their kids soccer ability is going to pay off in a full ride.
> 
> Very few of the kids I know who have recently gone on are on full rides out of the gates, most are a combination of athletic and academic, or just academic.  A lot of these talented kids are also great students and hit the books and are overall high-achievers ahead of the curve.
> 
> If you don’t want to pay the money, have your kid play rec or high school.  If you live in an area that is underserved, it may be underserved for a variety of reasons.  There is a reason people don’t want to live there.  There are good places and bad places, some safe, some not. I know many families who I have worked with and currently work with that have moved to a better area to ensure better access to better schools.  There are choices.
> 
> As others have said, life is not fair.  It’s not an even playing field, some people get dealt bad cards, some people get lucky, some people work hard and some people are lazy.  Some people are smart and some not so much.  Some people take risks and advantage of opportunities, and some play it safe and won’t take a chance.  It’s not even and expecting it to be equal is a fallacy.  If I make $100k and somebody else makes $50k should I give them $25k so it is fair and we both have $75k.
> 
> There was professor I heard about who was discussing socialism with the class and gave a similar example with the students....one received an A the other a C, and the professor told them they would both get B’s.  The A student was pissed, they studied, put in the work and was prepared, the C student was happy, because they got more than they earned.
> 
> Score is kept here on variety of levels. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. We don’t all get ribbons for 9th place. People also confuse effort and results. Just because you work hard does not mean you receive the same as the individual who gets results.
> 
> People want the level playing field as long as it is not their money.  Are you willing to give up 25%, 30% or more of your income to “level” the playing field?
> 
> As I’m sure many of you do, we volunteer, and donate to causes we believe it.  We could probably do more if I am being completely honest.
> 
> If kids want to go to school they can.  Not everyone needs to start at a 4 year university.  JC is a great, lower cost option to get started, complete general ed’s and many of the JC’s have amazing programs with direct pipelines to major universities.  If young adults (18+) really want a college education they can get it.


and some people cheat!!!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

*"That’s goes to the part of neglected communities and underfunded schools. But take me for example. I had a young drug addicted mother and no father." *

A drug addicted mother and no father.  So is the system neglected and underfunded or would you agree it's fair to say there are consequences for actions?  If my situation was the same as yours, I probably wouldn't have made it so I certainly tip my cap to your achievements... not sure I would have been able to say the same.  My parents both worked in high school and put themselves through college.  They didn't do drugs or disappear... they worked the entire time... like I did.  Your situation is a direct consequence of your parent's actions.  But the fact is that your story is probably more common in the black communities than any other.  Would you agree? And if that's true, would you say it's everyone else's fault?  That standards for admission should be lowered?  That there's some nationwide problem with black kids not getting the same opportunities?  Or would you say black fathers need to stick around more and drugs need to not be so prevalent?  Poverty and lack of opportunity is the same no matter what your ethnicity is.  No?


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> and some people cheat!!!


Yes they do.  The Varsity Blues Scandal is probably the best and most disgusting example.  One of the Sr. Exec’s at one of my clients was involved - paid $400k and got 4 months in jail.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Wow.  De facto segregation.  White flight.  Environmental racism.  War on drugs.


Meaning what?  Be more specific.


----------



## MSK357

MacDre said:


> Please elaborate.


There are lawsuits against ivy league schools for accepting lower SAT or GPA scores for certain minority groups as opposed to others.  And I think its a well known fact that some students get in to schools based on their athletic ability and not by their academic merit.


----------



## full90

The Outlaw said:


> *"That’s goes to the part of neglected communities and underfunded schools. But take me for example. I had a young drug addicted mother and no father." *
> 
> A drug addicted mother and no father.  So is the system neglected and underfunded or would you agree it's fair to say there are consequences for actions?  If my situation was the same as yours, I probably wouldn't have made it so I certainly tip my cap to your achievements... not sure I would have been able to say the same.  My parents both worked in high school and put themselves through college.  They didn't do drugs or disappear... they worked the entire time... like I did.  Your situation is a direct consequence of your parent's actions.  But the fact is that your story is probably more common in the black communities than any other.  Would you agree? And if that's true, would you say it's everyone else's fault?  That standards for admission should be lowered?  That there's some nationwide problem with black kids not getting the same opportunities?  Or would you say black fathers need to stick around more and drugs need to not be so prevalent?  Poverty and lack of opportunity is the same no matter what your ethnicity is.  No?


I’d disagree knowing the systematic racism that has existed for decades preventing specifically black people from access to education, job opportunity and upward mobility. As a society we can’t deny entire groups of people access to improve their station in life and then turn around and say “you should just work harder.”
We have to systematically fix the systematic wrongs that were done. It’s an awful knot to untangle but steps have to be taken.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> *"That’s goes to the part of neglected communities and underfunded schools. But take me for example. I had a young drug addicted mother and no father." *
> 
> A drug addicted mother and no father.  So is the system neglected and underfunded or would you agree it's fair to say there are consequences for actions?  If my situation was the same as yours, I probably wouldn't have made it so I certainly tip my cap to your achievements... not sure I would have been able to say the same.  My parents both worked in high school and put themselves through college.  They didn't do drugs or disappear... they worked the entire time... like I did.  Your situation is a direct consequence of your parent's actions.  But the fact is that your story is probably more common in the black communities than any other.  Would you agree? And if that's true, would you say it's everyone else's fault?  That standards for admission should be lowered?  That there's some nationwide problem with black kids not getting the same opportunities?  Or would you say black fathers need to stick around more and drugs need to not be so prevalent?  Poverty and lack of opportunity is the same no matter what your ethnicity is.  No?


I advocate for all poor kids.  In terms of the blacks I guess they are just ignorant and lazy and always looking for handouts.  Thanks for showing me the reality of things.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

full90 said:


> I’d disagree knowing the systematic racism that has existed for decades preventing specifically black people from access to education, job opportunity and upward mobility. As a society we can’t deny entire groups of people access to improve their station in life and then turn around and say “you should just work harder.”
> We have to systematically fix the systematic wrongs that were done. It’s an awful knot to untangle but steps have to be taken.


What systematic racism exists today that prevents black people from the same opportunities?  Can you give me a few examples?  Because I see a whole bunch of African American people becoming really successful, with little or no means, and I'm not just talking about drug dealing rappers that become "producers".


----------



## dad4

full90 said:


> If I’m an AD I’m keeping at a minimum:
> Football
> Men’s and women’s bball
> Women’s soccer
> Baseball
> Softball
> 
> next tier
> W volleyball
> Track
> Tennis men’s and womens
> Golf men’s and womens
> 
> next tier
> Swimming
> 
> 
> and the news about cal st Fullerton is that they are preparing to go online. No decision is even close to make that call. They have start thinking what fully online would mean. Just like all schools are preparing. Just in case.


Once you count the money spent on better and better facilities, there aren’t many schools that actually make a profit on football.  That’s just a myth to justify a 2 million dollar coach’s salary.

At most schools, I’d save club and intramurals first.   Drop all out of region travel other than national tournaments.  That way, you help out far more participants per dollar spent.


full90 said:


> If I’m an AD I’m keeping at a minimum:
> Football
> Men’s and women’s bball
> Women’s soccer
> Baseball
> Softball
> 
> next tier
> W volleyball
> Track
> Tennis men’s and womens
> Golf men’s and womens
> 
> next tier
> Swimming
> 
> 
> and the news about cal st Fullerton is that they are preparing to go online. No decision is even close to make that call. They have start thinking what fully online would mean. Just like all schools are preparing. Just in case.


Why keep the biggest, most expensive sports?  Once you count the facility upgrades, there are very few schools that actually make money on Football. 

For most schools, keep club and intra mural sports.  When you do keep varsity, focus on the sports with lower costs.  Less money spent per athlete is just another way to say more athletes kept per dollar.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I advocate for all poor kids.  In terms of the blacks I guess they are just ignorant and lazy and always looking for handouts.  Thanks for showing me the reality of things.


That's cop out statement.  How about we get away from the victimhood and look at facts and statistics.  You just told me you had every reason to fail and didn't.  Why?  Because you valued education and hard work?  You respected rules and authority figures?  You didn't make stupid choices or walk around blaming everyone else for your hurdles?  How refreshing.


----------



## full90

I’m keeping the most popular sports that have television and fan support that positively impact the university and alumni. It’s not just dollars and cents. If that’s the case I’d cut everything.
But it’s about representing the university and issues bigger than just the bottom line. If it’s just money everything goes.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> Wow.  De facto segregation.  White flight.  Environmental racism.  War on drugs.
> 
> I have no problem getting the scholars from my hood into Middle College HS and into Stanford and the Ivies.  I just see a lot of disturbing issues in soccer.  I guess it is what it is.


I just don’t believe in socialism, but am very big on personal accountability, choice, and you receive what you earn. We have a very colorful family - Black, White, Latin, and Native American across brother/sister in-laws, wife’s/husbands that have resulted in a very colorful and unique family. We joke in our family that we fly many flags.

I don’t owe you any kind of explanation, but do take offense to being characterized as racist or segregationist.  I’m many things, but not those.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Meaning what?  Be more specific.


It’s all about our complicated history.  It is what it is.  My life is great.  I’m trying to find solutions to help kids. I’m not an expert. 
But I think there’s problems with access in soccer and I don’t like the system.


----------



## full90

The Outlaw said:


> What systematic racism exists today that prevents black people from the same opportunities?  Can you give me a few examples?  Because I see a whole bunch of African American people becoming really successful, with little or no means, and I'm not just talking about drug dealing rappers that become "producers".


Seriously? My sons best friend is in a wheelchair and his parents cannot get full time jobs that provide benefits. They are ready and willing to do whatever it takes. So they piece together part time jobs to make ends meet but still can’t afford the healthcare or therapy the son needs. Sad but not exclusive to their skin color right? Fine.
Well both parents were children of uneducated parents who could not earn enough money to move to an area with great schools. The parents worked hard but didn’t have enough education to move to better jobs and didn’t have time to go get an education. Sad but not exclusive to skin color rights fine. Well their parents couldn’t attend their local high school because it was whites only. So they attended a blacks only school that went up to grade 10. They weren’t allowed to move out of their neighborhood and their dads couldn’t go get a job that paid more than minimum wage. LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO WORK OR GET A HOME LOAN. 

So those people (my sons friends grandparents) fled the south in order to try and move up in the world and access opportunities to Better themselves. They had no money and moved to nor cal but could afford a tiny place. Job market was better but still didn’t allow for them to pursue an education or better schooling for their kids. Could some people climb out of that? Sure.

but we are one generation from people legally being prevented from pursuing jobs, education, home loans, equality. The ramifications of that injustice are still being felt today.

but I’ll be sure to tell my friends that you think they should work harder and to stop doing drugs so they can get a full time job.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Before we cut all non revenue sports perhaps colleges can make cuts in other areas:

1) football and basketball coaches salaries.  some of these coaches earn enough to fund 2-3 programs per year!
2) reduce the number of games played by non revenue generating sports
3) reduce the travel.  Play more local teams.
4) reduce the number of scholarships


----------



## Ellejustus

MSK357 said:


> There are lawsuits against ivy league schools for accepting lower SAT or GPA scores for certain minority groups as opposed to others.  And I think its a well known fact that some students get in to schools based on their athletic ability and not by their academic merit.


That's because the school wants to win.  Help everyone through sports is my motto.  My big stink has been how the little girls have to be perfect almost and the boys are one and done.  Let any man 18 go to straight to the draft and I bet every goat skips college.  Football, Hoops, you name it. Who is making these "black" hoopsters go to school for one year anyway?  I can;t believe i'm reading what im reading today.  Hello, some one home?


----------



## MSK357

full90 said:


> Seriously? My sons best friend is in a wheelchair and his parents cannot get full time jobs that provide benefits. They are ready and willing to do whatever it takes. So they piece together part time jobs to make ends meet but still can’t afford the healthcare or therapy the son needs. Sad but not exclusive to their skin color right? Fine.
> Well both parents were children of uneducated parents who could not earn enough money to move to an area with great schools. The parents worked hard but didn’t have enough education to move to better jobs and didn’t have time to go get an education. Sad but not exclusive to skin color rights fine. Well their parents couldn’t attend their local high school because it was whites only. So they attended a blacks only school that went up to grade 10. They weren’t allowed to move out of their neighborhood and their dads couldn’t go get a job that paid more than minimum wage. LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO WORK OR GET A HOME LOAN.
> 
> So those people (my sons friends grandparents) fled the south in order to try and move up in the world and access opportunities to Better themselves. They had no money and moved to nor cal but could afford a tiny place. Job market was better but still didn’t allow for them to pursue an education or better schooling for their kids. Could some people climb out of that? Sure.
> 
> but we are one generation from people legally being prevented from pursuing jobs, education, home loans, equality. The ramifications of that injustice are still being felt today.
> 
> but I’ll be sure to tell my friends that you think they should work harder and to stop doing drugs so they can get a full time job.


Thank god that institutional racism no longer exists today.  I cant believe Joe Biden contributed to that situation by stopping the busing of minority children to better schools (white schools).  I cant believe he worked with segregationist democrats to do that, democrats that voted against the civil rights act.  I cant believe his reasoning to do that was because he didn't want his white children growing up in a racial jungle.  We need to stop racists like Joe Biden from trying to prevent these racist laws.  Children should be able to attend the school of their choice, something republicans have been fighting for since brown vs board of education and continue to do so.  I really don't know why democrats want to keep minority children, people of color, in failing school districts. just my 2 cents.









						Did Joe Biden Say He Didn't Want His Kids Growing Up in a 'Racial Jungle'?
					

The 2020 Democratic presidential candidate's history with busing has haunted him on the campaign trail.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## MSK357

MSK357 said:


> Thank god that institutional racism no longer exists today.  I cant believe Joe Biden contributed to that situation by stopping the busing of minority children to better schools (white schools).  I cant believe he worked with segregationist democrats to do that, democrats that voted against the civil rights act.  I cant believe his reasoning to do that was because he didn't want his white children growing up in a racial jungle.  We need to stop racists like Joe Biden from trying to prevent these racist laws.  Children should be able to attend the school of their choice, something republicans have been fighting for since brown vs board of education and continue to do so.  I really don't know why democrats want to keep minority children, people of color, in failing school districts. just my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Joe Biden Say He Didn't Want His Kids Growing Up in a 'Racial Jungle'?
> 
> 
> The 2020 Democratic presidential candidate's history with busing has haunted him on the campaign trail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


*We need to stop racist like Joe Biden from trying to pass these racist laws. (was typing too fast)


----------



## full90

MSK357 said:


> Thank god that institutional racism no longer exists today.  I cant believe Joe Biden contributed to that situation by stopping the busing of minority children to better schools (white schools).  I cant believe he worked with segregationist democrats to do that, democrats that voted against the civil rights act.  I cant believe his reasoning to do that was because he didn't want his white children growing up in a racial jungle.  We need to stop racists like Joe Biden from trying to prevent these racist laws.  Children should be able to attend the school of their choice, something republicans have been fighting for since brown vs board of education and continue to do so.  I really don't know why democrats want to keep minority children, people of color, in failing school districts. just my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Joe Biden Say He Didn't Want His Kids Growing Up in a 'Racial Jungle'?
> 
> 
> The 2020 Democratic presidential candidate's history with busing has haunted him on the campaign trail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


so just to be clear, you’re asserting a position held by joe Biden in 1977, 40 years ago, is enough evidence for you to label him a racist and not be fit for president? And that school choice is the solution to inequality in education today?


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> I just don’t believe in socialism, but am very big on personal accountability, choice, and you receive what you earn. We have a very colorful family - Black, White, Latin, and Native American across brother/sister in-laws, wife’s/husbands that have resulted in a very colorful and unique family. We joke in our family that we fly many flags.
> 
> I don’t owe you any kind of explanation, but do take offense to being characterized as racist or segregationist.  I’m many things, but not those.


No one characterized you as anything.  I was just pointing out valid issues.  Feeling guilty?


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> Before we cut all non revenue sports perhaps colleges can make cuts in other areas:
> 
> 1) football and basketball coaches salaries.  some of these coaches earn enough to fund 2-3 programs per year!
> 2) reduce the number of games played by non revenue generating sports
> 3) reduce the travel.  Play more local teams.
> 4) reduce the number of scholarships


I agree the system is unfair in many ways and is in need of overhaul.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> No one characterized you as anything.  I was just pointing out valid issues.  Feeling guilty?


Haha...not one bit...but thanks for checking.  Appreciate the concern.  Just keep beating the drum and fighting the good fight.


----------



## MSK357

full90 said:


> so just to be clear, you’re asserting a position held by joe Biden in 1977, 40 years ago, is enough evidence for you to label him a racist and not be fit for president? And that school choice is the solution to inequality in education today?


Yes,  Joe Biden was obviously racist in 1977.  He obviously worked with Jesse helm, a democrat senator who voted against the civil rights act.  (mind you this shows that there were no mass switching of parties, democrats that voted against the civil rights act stayed democrat)  Do you want a known racist, who helped create racist policies to be president? I believe the best way out of poverty is education.  Democrats are against school choice, I believe every child has a right to quality education.  Do you believe all school districts provide the same quality? quality of teachers, class size, etc?  Agree to disagree.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> That's cop out statement.  How about we get away from the victimhood and look at facts and statistics.  You just told me you had every reason to fail and didn't.  Why?  Because you valued education and hard work?  You respected rules and authority figures?  You didn't make stupid choices or walk around blaming everyone else for your hurdles?  How refreshing.


I wish your statements were true but they are not.  I attended university on accident.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> Seriously? My sons best friend is in a wheelchair and his parents cannot get full time jobs that provide benefits. They are ready and willing to do whatever it takes. So they piece together part time jobs to make ends meet but still can’t afford the healthcare or therapy the son needs. Sad but not exclusive to their skin color right? Fine.
> Well both parents were children of uneducated parents who could not earn enough money to move to an area with great schools. The parents worked hard but didn’t have enough education to move to better jobs and didn’t have time to go get an education. Sad but not exclusive to skin color rights fine. Well their parents couldn’t attend their local high school because it was whites only. So they attended a blacks only school that went up to grade 10. They weren’t allowed to move out of their neighborhood and their dads couldn’t go get a job that paid more than minimum wage. LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO WORK OR GET A HOME LOAN.
> 
> So those people (my sons friends grandparents) fled the south in order to try and move up in the world and access opportunities to Better themselves. They had no money and moved to nor cal but could afford a tiny place. Job market was better but still didn’t allow for them to pursue an education or better schooling for their kids. Could some people climb out of that? Sure.
> 
> but we are one generation from people legally being prevented from pursuing jobs, education, home loans, equality. The ramifications of that injustice are still being felt today.
> 
> but I’ll be sure to tell my friends that you think they should work harder and to stop doing drugs so they can get a full time job.


TY.


----------



## MSK357

MSK357 said:


> Yes,  Joe Biden was obviously racist in 1977.  He obviously worked with Jesse helm, a democrat senator who voted against the civil rights act.  (mind you this shows that there were no mass switching of parties, democrats that voted against the civil rights act stayed democrat)  Do you want a known racist, who helped create racist policies to be president? I believe the best way out of poverty is education.  Democrats are against school choice, I believe every child has a right to quality education.  Do you believe all school districts provide the same quality? quality of teachers, class size, etc?  Agree to disagree.


Correction


MSK357 said:


> Yes,  Joe Biden was obviously racist in 1977.  He obviously worked with Jesse helm, a democrat senator who voted against the civil rights act.  (mind you this shows that there were no mass switching of parties, democrats that voted against the civil rights act stayed democrat)  Do you want a known racist, who helped create racist policies to be president? I believe the best way out of poverty is education.  Democrats are against school choice, I believe every child has a right to quality education.  Do you believe all school districts provide the same quality? quality of teachers, class size, etc?  Agree to disagree.


Correction James Eastland and Herman Talmadge, not  Jesse Helm.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> I wish your statements were true but they are not.  I attended university on accident.


I was born by accident and all before 1972.  Thank God I was protected by a loving adopted mother who told me I was her special blessing and that God wanted me to live for some crazy reason and she was picked to help me navigate this place.  Lester makes it sound like Macdre chose his entry, his parents and the two strikes he woke up with before he came out of the womb.  This is called, "look at both sides and make peace with the right and left or I will got to Montana and sit this one out.  My gosh, share folks!!!  Way too deep for the Either OR crowd on here.  Conservative or Socialist? Can we meet in the middle guys?  Stop being so Black & White, Rich or Poor and so on.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

full90 said:


> Seriously? My sons best friend is in a wheelchair and his parents cannot get full time jobs that provide benefits. They are ready and willing to do whatever it takes. So they piece together part time jobs to make ends meet but still can’t afford the healthcare or therapy the son needs. Sad but not exclusive to their skin color right? Fine.
> Well both parents were children of uneducated parents who could not earn enough money to move to an area with great schools. The parents worked hard but didn’t have enough education to move to better jobs and didn’t have time to go get an education. Sad but not exclusive to skin color rights fine. Well their parents couldn’t attend their local high school because it was whites only. So they attended a blacks only school that went up to grade 10. They weren’t allowed to move out of their neighborhood and their dads couldn’t go get a job that paid more than minimum wage. LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO WORK OR GET A HOME LOAN.
> 
> So those people (my sons friends grandparents) fled the south in order to try and move up in the world and access opportunities to Better themselves. They had no money and moved to nor cal but could afford a tiny place. Job market was better but still didn’t allow for them to pursue an education or better schooling for their kids. Could some people climb out of that? Sure.
> 
> but we are one generation from people legally being prevented from pursuing jobs, education, home loans, equality. The ramifications of that injustice are still being felt today.
> 
> but I’ll be sure to tell my friends that you think they should work harder and to stop doing drugs so they can get a full time job.


Why can they not get full time jobs with benefits?  Or one of them?  And yeah... not doing drugs would be a good idea.  There are a ton of places where apartments exist next to better schools.  All over NorCal.  You have to live where you can afford to live.  Telling me there was a time where black kids couldn't attend white schools has nothing to do with today.  Dre here is a prime example.  No father.  Really?  And why not?  Is that a systemic failure or a character failure?  Second, mom is a drug addict.  Well, you don't become a drug addict unless you do drugs (sans being born into it and apparently Dre overcame it).  Make better choices, right?  Home loans are offered to people that offer a low risk opportunity.  Simple.  Doesn't matter who you are, does it?  Is it still 1970?  "Still being felt today" is a mindset.  I don't agree with Kanye West on much... but I do there.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

full90 said:


> so just to be clear, you’re asserting a position held by joe Biden in 1977, 40 years ago, is enough evidence for you to label him a racist and not be fit for president? And that school choice is the solution to inequality in education today?


He's unfit for numerous reasons.  The first one is he thinks he's running for the senate.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I wish your statements were true but they are not.  I attended university on accident.


That's fine that you did but you're 1 example.  Which of my statements is/are untrue and why?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> I was born by accident and all before 1972.  Thank God I was protected by a loving adopted mother who told me I was her special blessing and that God wanted me to live for some crazy reason and she was picked to help me navigate this place.  Lester makes it sound like Macdre chose his entry, his parents and the two strikes he woke up with before he came out of the womb.  This is called, "look at both sides and make peace with the right and left or I will got to Montana and sit this one out.  My gosh, share folks!!!  Way too deep for the Either OR crowd on here.  Conservative or Socialist? Can we meet in the middle guys?  Stop being so Black & White, Rich or Poor and so on.


What are you babbling about, Spicoli?  I suggested Dre chose his upbringing?  How so?  And what is this "God wanted me to live" nonsense?  Apparently some human that gave birth or adopted you, or both, wanted you to live.  If they didn't, you'd have died.  God or no God.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Why can they not get full time jobs with benefits?  Or one of them?  And yeah... not doing drugs would be a good idea.  There are a ton of places where apartments exist next to better schools.  All over NorCal.  You have to live where you can afford to live.  Telling me there was a time where black kids couldn't attend white schools has nothing to do with today.  Dre here is a prime example.  No father.  Really?  And why not?  Is that a systemic failure or a character failure?  Second, mom is a drug addict.  Well, you don't become a drug addict unless you do drugs (sans being born into it and apparently Dre overcame it).  Make better choices, right?  Home loans are offered to people that offer a low risk opportunity.  Simple.  Doesn't matter who you are, does it?  Is it still 1970?  "Still being felt today" is a mindset.  I don't agree with Kanye West on much... but I do there.


You don’t have a clue.  I don’t have the energy to keep explaining.  You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink.  I get it.  I also love your input because it helps me assess the obstacles that I have to negotiate.  
I will show you better than I can tell you.  I’m determined.  No need for further pontification.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> You don’t have a clue.  I don’t have the energy to keep explaining.  You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink.  I get it.  I also love your input because it helps me assess the obstacles that I have to negotiate.
> I will show you better than I can tell you.  I’m determined.  No need for further pontification.


Unfortunately, that's what I thought.  You don't want to talk about drug use and fathers not sticking around to raise their kids.  I commend you for your overcoming such obstacles, sincerely, but I'm not surprised you are choosing to walk away from the facts.  You haven't explained anything other than the lack of accountability and honesty makes things uncomfortable for certain people.  Because what I'm hearing is that the systematic oppression that held you back had nothing to do with anything other than your personal situation.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> That's fine that you did but you're 1 example.  Which of my statements is/are untrue and why?


I wanted to join my neighborhood gang but they wouldn’t let me.  I was very rebellious.  I’m glad I crossed the path of people more compassionate than you or I’d probably still be in jail.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I wanted to join my neighborhood gang but they wouldn’t let me.  I was very rebellious.  I’m glad I crossed the path of people more compassionate than you or I’d probably still be in jail.


Why should I be compassionate towards someone that wants to join a gang and violate the rights of others?


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Unfortunately, that's what I thought.  You don't want to talk about drug use and fathers not sticking around to raise their kids.  I commend you for your overcoming such obstacles, sincerely, but I'm not surprised you are choosing to walk away from the facts.  You haven't explained anything other than the lack of accountability and honesty makes things uncomfortable for certain people.  Because what I'm hearing is that the systematic oppression that held you back had nothing to do with anything other than your personal situation.


Statistically speaking drug use and abuse is more prevalent in other more affluent  communities.  The issues of broken homes is directly related to slavery, mass incarceration, and several other policies.  
I think my families life is a good example of systemic oppression but I’m trying to stay on topic.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Why should I be compassionate towards someone that wants to join a gang and violate the rights of others?


That’s not what I wanted.  I wanted to be loved.  I wanted to be a part of something.  I was a kid.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Statistically speaking drug use and abuse is more prevalent in other more affluent  communities.  The issues of broken homes is directly related to slavery, mass incarceration, and several other policies.
> I think my families life is a good example of systemic oppression but I’m trying to stay on topic.


So your father didn't stick around because of slavery and mass incarceration?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> That’s not what I wanted.  I wanted to be loved.  I wanted to be a part of something.  I was a kid.


But you're blaming that on everything other than your parents.  Are you not?  How is that someone else's fault?  And frankly, if you look to gangs for love and acceptance, why would someone you victimize show you compassion?


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> So your father didn't stick around because of slavery and mass incarceration?


Yes, they’re contributing factors.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Yes, they’re contributing factors.


How would slavery, that happened generations ago, prevent a man from staying around to raise his kids?  Was your father or his father a slave?

I get it if he was locked up... but then I'd ask you why he was locked up and you might not want to share that.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> But you're blaming that on everything other than your parents.  Are you not?  How is that someone else's fault?  And frankly, if you look to gangs for love and acceptance, why would someone you victimize show you compassion?


Who did I victimize?  You’re making assumptions?  Adolescent kids do dumb shit everywhere.  
I was actually very angry until I looked closely at my family history and realized my family hadn’t recovered from the trauma of slavery and that slavery was not long ago.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> How would slavery, that happened generations ago, prevent a man from staying around to raise his kids?  Was your father or his father a slave?
> 
> I get it if he was locked up... but then I'd ask you why he was locked up and you might not want to share that.


Yes, kind of but I’ve already explained it on this board before.  You don’t get it and that’s okay.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Who did I victimize?  You’re making assumptions?  Adolescent kids do dumb shit everywhere.
> I was actually very angry until I looked closely at my family history and realized my family hadn’t recovered from the trauma of slavery and that slavery was not long ago.


How are you traumatized by something that happened well before you were born?  Again, you're telling me that prevented someone from sticking around to raise their kids?  Really?


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> How are you traumatized by something that happened well before you were born?  Again, you're telling me that prevented someone from sticking around to raise their kids?  Really?


How do you think being raised by a kid that was traumatized by human trafficking and no resources impacts a kids trajectory?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Who did I victimize?  You’re making assumptions?  Adolescent kids do dumb shit everywhere.
> I was actually very angry until I looked closely at my family history and realized my family hadn’t recovered from the trauma of slavery and that slavery was not long ago.


Gangs victimize people.  I'm not aware of any charity work they do.  Most kids do dumb shit but it doesn't usually involve robbing people or beating the shit out of innocent folks minding their business.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> How do you think being raised by a kid that was traumatized by human trafficking and no resources impacts a kids trajectory?


Are we talking about your mother or father?  I know lots of kids that were raised by abusive alcoholics that smacked their wives around.  The kids became great parents that didn't want to fuck their kids up.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Are we talking about your mother or father?  I know lots of kids that were raised by abusive alcoholics that smacked their wives around.  The kids became great parents that didn't want to fuck their kids up.


I’m talking about my grandma. She was freed from slavery approximately 100 years before I was born.  She was 13 and had already been raped and had a biracial child.  No money.  No education.  No property.  Unjust laws.  So still in de facto slavery after the abolition of slavery.  Her day to day didn’t change and she had over 20 kids and not by choice.  How long for her offspring to recover in your opinion?  Please be specific.  Give me a timeline.


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> And what is this "God wanted me to live" nonssense


Lester, go read again my story.  My mother told me I was a blessing from God and their is a purpose for me and so on.  I din;t say that. I have no idea why I'm here.  I'm just here talking to you.  I will tell my mom what you said.  She will get a good laugh from it


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I’m talking about my grandma. She was freed from slavery approximately 100 years before I was born.  She was 13 and had already been raped and had a biracial child.  No money.  No education.  No property.  Unjust laws.  So still in de facto slavery after the abolition of slavery.  Her day to day didn’t change and she had over 20 kids and not by choice.  How long for her offspring to recover in your opinion?  Please be specific.  Give me a timeline.


I fail to see the correlation between her horrendous life and any opportunities you feel society cheated you out of.  Furthermore, though it's not my place to produce a "timeline", nothing would stop me from doing whatever it took to stay home and raise my children.  My grandfather was also the product of a rape, adopted and in no way, shape or form did that have any impact on my father... let alone me.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Gangs victimize people.  I'm not aware of any charity work they do.  Most kids do dumb shit but it doesn't usually involve robbing people or beating the shit out of innocent folks minding their business.


I actually agree. But sometimes good people do bad things for all of the right reasons.  I’m trying to give the youth alternatives to gangs but again I am disturbed by the soccer system.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> Lester, go read again my story.  My mother told me I was a blessing from God and their is a purpose for me and so on.  I din;t say that. I have no idea why I'm here.  I'm just here talking to you.  I will tell my mom what you said.  She will get a good laugh from it


No, I've read your story 1,275 times already.  I'm not reading it again.  And I don't want to read your kid's story again, either.  She can be a GOAT, I'll wish her the best and that's the end of that.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> I fail to see the correlation between her horrendous life and any opportunities you feel society cheated you out of.  Furthermore, though it's not my place to produce a "timeline", nothing would stop me from doing whatever it took to stay home and raise my children.  My grandfather was also the product of a rape, adopted and in no way, shape or form did that have any impact on my father... let alone me.


Society hasn’t cheated me.  I’m blessed.  I was also fortunate to be mentored by very successful white men that grew up poor.  The other was always rich and was raised by a black nanny.  I consider them all family.  
I guess it’s my turn to mentor.  I don’t want to do it because of the childhood trauma. 

I wish I was as resilient as your family. I have achieved great success in life but it doesn’t erase the pain. Maybe I’m the reluctant messiah. IDK, just trying to keep kids out of gangs and very frustrated with the current system.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I actually agree. But sometimes good people do bad things for all of the right reasons.  I’m trying to give the youth alternatives to gangs but again I am disturbed by the soccer system.


You have clubs along HWY80.  You don't have the ECNL choices others do but I see girls from Diablo, etc. playing in college.  And I know there are lower profile comp clubs in those areas.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Society hasn’t cheated me.  I’m blessed.  I was also fortunate to be mentored by very successful white men that grew up poor.  The other was always rich and was raised by a black nanny.  I consider them all family.
> I guess it’s my turn to mentor.  I don’t want to do it because of the childhood trauma.
> 
> I wish I was as resilient as your family. I have achieved great success in life but it doesn’t erase the pain. Maybe I’m the reluctant messiah. IDK, just trying to keep kids out of gangs and very frustrated with the current system.


Gang life is glorified in all the RAP music.  That's why I laugh when I hear Nipsey Hussle was some kind of hero.  Really?  Drive into the hood in a $150k Mercedes, wearing 3 gold chains, and tell kids "don't do what I did."  Seriously?  Maybe that needs to stop being considered a good thing in certain communities.


----------



## Ellejustus

Noun Gang= an organized group of criminals

Verb (a number of people) form a group or gang.
"the smaller supermarket chains are ganging together to beat the big boys"


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> You have clubs along HWY80.  You don't have the ECNL choices others do but I see girls from Diablo, etc. playing in college.  And I know there are lower profile comp clubs in those areas.


I’m hopeful about Diablo and looking to work with them in the near future.  I’m already in contact with the DOC.  I have to figure out something different for my target demographic because I can’t depend on help from their parents.  I’m thinking of a after school program focusing on academics and soccer.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Gang life is glorified in all the RAP music.  That's why I laugh when I hear Nipsey Hussle was some kind of hero.  Really?  Drive into the hood in a $150k Mercedes, wearing 3 gold chains, and tell kids "don't do what I did."  Seriously?  Maybe that needs to stop being considered a good thing in certain communities.


I don’t agree.  I just came to realization that I’m officially a big homie from the hood.  Do you know what it means to be a big homie outlaw?

I love this song because it epitomizes how I’m feeling now.  listen to the lyrics of this song.  What’s so negative?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I don’t agree.  I just came to realization that I’m officially a big homie from the hood.  Do you know what it means to be a big homie outlaw?
> 
> I love this song because it epitomizes how I’m feeling now.  listen to the lyrics of this song.  What’s so negative?


I find it pretty hilarious to wear colors, point guns at the camera, throw gang signs, promote drugs, make all your women look like whores, use the N-word every 10 seconds but complain it's offensive if others do and then cry that you're profiled.  I'm not sure the rest of America has a low enough IQ to follow along.  Makes it hard to think everyone else is the problem, doesn't it?  I see a lot of self inflicted gunshots in RAP videos.

I'll have to google the lyrics and read them.  Hard to understand more than every 5th word of what he's saying.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Gangs victimize people.  I'm not aware of any charity work they do.  Most kids do dumb shit but it doesn't usually involve robbing people or beating the shit out of innocent folks minding their business.


Have you ever lost a child.  I have.  RIP nephew.









						North Richmond man slain, neighborhood on edge
					

Ervin Coley III, 21, worked as a gardener in his community.



					richmondconfidential.org


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Yeah... halfway into the 2nd verse, it isn't any easier to read it than it is to listen to it.  I mean, what is this shit?  Nevermind.

[Verse 2]
Ever catch a sucker loafin', then you gotta cook him (Mop)
It get chilly in the trench, I need a Mozzy hoodie (Mozzy)
Lookin' for consistency when I be copping Cookie (Uh-huh)
I'm in love with your hustle, baby, not your pussy
How you run me out the hood and I'm the one who run it? (Huh?)
I'm the one that make sure Auntie 'nem don't want for nothin'
I'm the one that motivate 'em, baby, ask the youngins
Told 'em re-up with the twenties, gotta stack the hundred
Ayy, we just thuggin' tryna rap, you a rapper thuggin'
Went to sleep inside that abandoned building after hustlin'
You switched sides at the slide, it was all for nothing
Why you cop a Hellcat if you ain't doggin' nothin'?
I ain't tryna split the profit, either all or nothin'
Finna take my girly face to terrorize the mall or somethin'
We never cry 'bout a snitch's death, he had it bomin'
I seen ten fifty times 'fore I sold a hundred


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Have you ever lost a child.  I have.  RIP nephew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Richmond man slain, neighborhood on edge
> 
> 
> Ervin Coley III, 21, worked as a gardener in his community.
> 
> 
> 
> richmondconfidential.org


I'm sorry for your loss.  I'm guessing it wasn't white oppression that killed him.  It's interesting that a black man is 10 times more likely to be murdered by another black man, than a  cop or white person, but I see streets blocked off with protests when a black, career criminal dies resisting arrest.  Honest question... will people in his community protest the actions of the killer?  Will they "snitch" on the murderer or "_We never cry 'bout a snitch's death, he had it bomin_'"?


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> I find it pretty hilarious to wear colors, point guns at the camera, throw gang signs, promote drugs, make all your women look like whores, use the N-word every 10 seconds but complain it's offensive if others do and then cry that you're profiled.  I'm not sure the rest of America has a low enough IQ to follow along.  Makes it hard to think everyone else is the problem, doesn't it?  I see a lot of self inflicted gunshots in RAP videos.
> 
> I'll have to google the lyrics and read them.  Hard to understand more than every 5th word of what he's saying.


Funny because the words are crystal clear to me and all the youth that consume it.  I didn’t see any scantily clothed and objectified women either.  You are conflating.
 My generation turned the N word into a term of endearment to desensitize us from the pain of the word; it’s a controversial topic in the black community though.  I was very surprised last summer when the use of the N word was covered in my kids majority white ATDP class.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> I'm sorry for your loss.  I'm guessing it wasn't white oppression that killed him.  It's interesting that a black man is 10 times more likely to be murdered by another black man, than a  cop or white person, but I see streets blocked off with protests when a black, career criminal dies resisting arrest.  Honest question... will people in his community protest the actions of the killer?  Will they "snitch" on the murderer or "_We never cry 'bout a snitch's death, he had it bomin_'"?


Telling on who did it is not going to bring him back.


----------



## full90

I feel like you’re either intentionally obtuse or can’t understand facts that don’t support your viewpoint.
Slavery may have been decades ago, but the residual impact of the civil rights fight is still being felt today. It’s not hard to grasp that the ramifications of being marginalized has massive and lasting influence of generations of black families. And racist policies and practices are in place to this day that undermine black progress and mobility. I suggest you watch 13th on Netflix and come back on here and share what you’ve learned.


----------



## dad4

[. .


MacDre said:


> I don’t agree.  I just came to realization that I’m officially a big homie from the hood.  Do you know what it means to be a big homie outlaw?
> 
> I love this song because it epitomizes how I’m feeling now.  listen to the lyrics of this song.  What’s so negative?


What is so negative in the song?

Perhaps the bit where someone dies?  Or the part where the singer rationalized selling drugs as the only way to get by?  Or the reference to killing someone as people fight over the right to sell more dope?

Plenty negative in that song.  Those ideas are toxic.  How is a kid going to keep a job if he thinks selling dope is the only way to fill the fridge?


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Telling on who did it is not going to bring him back.


No.  But it might save the next young man.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> [. .
> 
> 
> What is so negative in the song?
> 
> Perhaps the bit where someone dies?  Or the part where the singer rationalized selling drugs as the only way to get by?  Or the reference to killing someone as people fight over the right to sell more
> Plenty negative in that song.  Those ideas are toxic.  How is a kid going to keep a job if he thinks selling dope is the only way to fill the fridge?


I’m not sure we’re listening to the same song. He’s telling a story about living in the hood.  He’s not glamorizing the life.  He even says that gangs aren’t glamorous, he motivates the young, he’s the one that makes sure the elderly don’t want for anything, he wants to take his girl on a shopping spree and that he’s in love with her mind.  I think it’s a positive message.
I think living in the hood is toxic and it was before rap.  Don’t kill the messenger for reporting the truth.  I guess we have to agree to disagree.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Telling on who did it is not going to bring him back.


That's true... but it might save lives and foster the change you seek rather than calling cops pigs and saying there are way too many black men in prison.  How else do these areas get cleaned up?  A young man is gunned down and all we'll hear is "cops take forever to show up and don't do anything."  Well, I'd get pretty complacent, too, if I couldn't pry any information out of anybody.  Why show up at all?  You're constantly hated and nobody is willing to help you do your job.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I’m not sure we’re listening to the same song. He’s telling a story about living in the hood.  He’s not glamorizing the life.  He even says that gangs aren’t glamorous, he motivates the young, he’s the one that makes sure the elderly don’t want for anything, he wants to take his girl on a shopping spree and that he’s in love with her mind.  I think it’s a positive message.
> I think living in the hood is toxic and it was before rap.  Don’t kill the messenger for reporting the truth.  I guess we have to agree to disagree.


I used to teach math in san jose.  The student I most respected was the one who was proud to be a manager at Walmart.

Tough as nails, and had an excellent sense for people.  Knew exactly who to help and who was up to something.  

Wish the culture could praise people like her.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Funny because the words are crystal clear to me and all the youth that consume it.  I didn’t see any scantily clothed and objectified women either.  You are conflating.
> My generation turned the N word into a term of endearment to desensitize us from the pain of the word; it’s a controversial topic in the black community though.  I was very surprised last summer when the use of the N word was covered in my kids majority white ATDP class.


Conflating?  Are you fucking kidding me?  You're going to tell me RAP videos don't do what I described?  You're going to tell me these lines from the song don't convey a certain message?  I mean, what is this shit?  Desensitize you from the pain of the word?  Does that make ANY sense to you?

_Why you cop a Hellcat if you ain't doggin' nothin'?
I ain't tryna split the profit, either all or nothin'
Finna take my girly face to terrorize the mall or somethin'
We never cry 'bout a snitch's death, he had it bomin'

I'ma stand my own ground, a nigga play with me (Yeah)
Sentimental value, never sell the thing you gave to me (On God)
Who the king of Macramento? They gon' say it's me (On God)
I ain't tryna end up in the pen', that shit gay to me (Hell nah) _


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I’m not sure we’re listening to the same song. He’s telling a story about living in the hood.  He’s not glamorizing the life.  He even says that gangs aren’t glamorous, he motivates the young, he’s the one that makes sure the elderly don’t want for anything, he wants to take his girl on a shopping spree and that he’s in love with her mind.  I think it’s a positive message.
> I think living in the hood is toxic and it was before rap.  Don’t kill the messenger for reporting the truth.  I guess we have to agree to disagree.


Who makes "living in the hood" toxic?  Who is to blame for that?


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> No.  But it might save the next young man.


Telling will only cause more death and destruction.  This happened 9 years ago and it still hurts.  I forgive those that did it and hope they find peace.  I pray for them everyday because killing an innocent person is a heavy burden to carry for the entirety of your life.
  I dealt with it by leaving town and isolating my daughter in TJ.  About a year ago I heard a news report about a gang terrorizing the bay area.  When I realized this new gang was created in honor of my nephew and to avenge his death I got sick to my stomach.  I feel personally responsible for all the people that were victimized by the swerve team.  I feel selfish and cowardly for running but I needed time to heal.  Hopefully, they all get locked up forever.
I thank an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I’m on this forum trying to save lives and learn the nuts and bolts of running a soccer club.  Hopefully I can make soccer and school the new gang but I have to get to them while they are young.  They’ll listen to me and take my guidance.  Programs for youth saves lives not telling.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> That's true... but it might save lives and foster the change you seek rather than calling cops pigs and saying there are way too many black men in prison.  How else do these areas get cleaned up?  A young man is gunned down and all we'll hear is "cops take forever to show up and don't do anything."  Well, I'd get pretty complacent, too, if I couldn't pry any information out of anybody.  Why show up at all?  You're constantly hated and nobody is willing to help you do your job.


I have family that are cops and they’ll tell you that there are serious problems.  If you would’ve watched the Netflix documentary recommended you’d know that the prison system is modern day slavery.  I also am well aware that defendant’s from my hood don’t get the same type of defense as the defendants in the Wellcare fraud case that I worked on for years.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Telling will only cause more death and destruction.  This happened 9 years ago and it still hurts.  I forgive those that did it and hope they find peace.  I pray for them everyday because killing an innocent person is a heavy burden to carry for the entirety of your life.
> I dealt with it by leaving town and isolating my daughter in TJ.  About a year ago I heard a news report about a gang terrorizing the bay area.  When I realized this new gang was created in honor of my nephew and to avenge his death I got sick to my stomach.  I feel personally responsible for all the people that were victimized by the swerve team.  I feel selfish and cowardly for running but I needed time to heal.  Hopefully, they all get locked up forever.
> I thank an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I’m on this forum trying to save lives and learn the nuts and bolts of running a soccer club.  Hopefully I can make soccer and school the new gang but I have to get to them while they are young.  They’ll listen to me and take my guidance.  Programs for youth saves lives not telling.


Again, I'm sorry for the loss of your nephew, but when you're bleeding, you don't just keep wiping the blood away... you put pressure on the wound.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> I used to teach math in san jose.  The student I most respected was the one who was proud to be a manager at Walmart.
> 
> Tough as nails, and had an excellent sense for people.  Knew exactly who to help and who was up to something.
> 
> Wish the culture could praise people like her.


Sorry.  I chose the wrong song.  Here you go:


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Sorry.  I chose the wrong song.  Here you go:


How come there's never any RAP videos of getting up early and going to work?  Maybe going to school?  Playing sports?  Helping a little old lady across the street?  You think maybe there's some self induced oppression and self pity there?  Always plenty of guys sitting around smoking weed, throwing gang signs and drinking.  Maybe see about making a video without 9 gold chains?

And by the way, this is fucking horrible, too.  Auto tune should be outlawed everywhere.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> How come there's never any RAP videos of getting up early and going to work?  Maybe going to school?  Playing sports?  Helping a little old lady across the street?  You think maybe there's some self induced oppression and self pity there?  Always plenty of guys sitting around smoking weed, throwing gang signs and drinking.  Maybe see about making a video without 9 gold chains?
> 
> And by the way, this is fucking horrible, too.  Auto tune should be outlawed everywhere.


They are storytelling and making good money.  It’s entertainment kinda like scarface and godfather movies.  Some of it’s negative, some is party music, Drake is mainstream.  I just relate to the stories in underground rap.  I don’t like the water down commercial stuff on the radio.


----------



## dad4

I prefer Sketches of Spain, Professor Longhair, or Dr. John.  But that's just me.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> I prefer Sketches of Spain, Professor Longhair, or Dr. John.  But that's just me.


I like that stuff too, I just associate it with my grandparents.  My regret about rap is that it’s rare for kids to play instruments in the hood now.
Rap is very personal for me.  Because I grew up with many pioneers of the industry.  Every time I hear someone say HATER I smile inside because I see the ability of my little community to influence the world.  All these fancy folk trying to be cool by acting like my friends and I.  I understand most don’t understand me.  Hater wasn’t a word before this song.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Maybe you all should get another room to debate!


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Maybe you all should get another room to debate!


And you sir are a HATER.  Are you going to support your conclusion from above.  My point still is I don’t like college soccer.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Just because I said you should be banned doesn’t mean I am a hater.  Don‘t jump to conclusions. I can think your opinion about college soccer is ridiculous especially for a member of this forum and still like you.  Give yourself a chance!


----------



## jpeter

*Men’s college soccer finds itself in a strange, fragile spot*








						Men’s college soccer finds itself in a strange, fragile spot | Charles Boehm | MLSSoccer.com
					

Boehm: Men’s college soccer finds itself in a strange, fragile spot




					www.mlssoccer.com
				




Soccer is a “non-revenue sport,” in the NCAA’s cynical parlance, and that group is squarely in the crosshairs right now. This crisis has already robbed member schools of one massive income source, its college basketball tournament, and threatens another: the fall gridiron football season. Just like the proverbial grass that suffers most when elephants fight, if that money dries up, even in part, it’s the smaller sports that will feel the sting.


----------



## SBFDad

NCAA statement last night...

_“Higher education is facing unique challenges, and the Division I leadership believes it’s appropriate to examine areas in which rules can be relaxed or amended to provide flexibility for schools and conferences,” Council chair M. Grace Calhoun, athletics director at Pennsylvania, said in the statement. “We will prioritize student-athlete well-being and opportunities balanced with reducing costs associated with administering college sports, but a blanket waiver of sport sponsorship requirements is not in keeping with our values and will not be considered.”_









						DI Council continues COVID-19 impact discussions
					

The Division I Council spent much of its meeting Friday discussing the effect of the COVID-19 pandemic on student-athletes, schools and conferences. Recognizing the severity of the impact, the group took action to address potential needs.




					www.ncaa.org


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Colleges need to sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity sports in order to maintain their D1 status.  

#varsity sports for the following colleges according to wilkepedia:

30 Cal
17 Pacific
20 Santa Clara
17 Pepperdine
25 UCLA
22 Fresno state
19 SDSU

If the fall semester is canceled,  football canceled I expect cuts to be made on sports programs.


----------



## jpeter

eastbaysoccer said:


> Colleges need to sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity sports in order to maintain their D1 status.
> 
> #varsity sports for the following colleges according to wilkepedia:
> 
> 30 Cal
> 17 Pacific
> 20 Santa Clara
> 17 Pepperdine
> 25 UCLA
> 22 Fresno state
> 19 SDSU
> 
> If the fall semester is canceled,  football canceled I expect cuts to be made on sports programs.


From those ncca minutes yesterday:

"While several legislative changes will be considered for blanket waivers, the Council indicated that sport sponsorship minimums should be removed from that list. Schools still can request sport sponsorship requirement waivers on an individual basis.

The other elements of the waiver request, including scheduling and summer access requirements, will be considered over the next few weeks"

Good move for the no on the blanket requests but sponsorship requirement waivers on a individual basis will be forthcoming and/or some will be dropped to the minimums.

Don't see anyway around this problem currently, the AD's and schools are faced with a bunch of tough choices.  football revenue will be way off if they manage to have some sort of limited season and/or closed off games.


----------



## espola

SBFDad said:


> NCAA statement last night...
> 
> _“Higher education is facing unique challenges, and the Division I leadership believes it’s appropriate to examine areas in which rules can be relaxed or amended to provide flexibility for schools and conferences,” Council chair M. Grace Calhoun, athletics director at Pennsylvania, said in the statement. “We will prioritize student-athlete well-being and opportunities balanced with reducing costs associated with administering college sports, but a blanket waiver of sport sponsorship requirements is not in keeping with our values and will not be considered.”_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DI Council continues COVID-19 impact discussions
> 
> 
> The Division I Council spent much of its meeting Friday discussing the effect of the COVID-19 pandemic on student-athletes, schools and conferences. Recognizing the severity of the impact, the group took action to address potential needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncaa.org


It seems the NCAA is not afraid of a tsunami of paperwork and lawsuits.  Since the proposal was supported by a majority of the conferences, but this part was taken out by the Council, that smells of Power-5 antidemocracy.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> To be fair, I have a hard time justifying the use of student fees to support athletics.  Raises the cost to those who just want a degree.
> 
> I did play a sport during college, and had a great time.  But I don't see how most other students benefited from my use of their fees.


We should get rid of engineering majors because it raises the cost of tuition and most students don’t benefit from it. We should get rid of the student newspaper because it raises tuition and most students don’t benefit from it. We should get rid of the student gyms because it raises tuition and most students don’t benefit from it. Why should the vegans have to subsidize all the meat and bread provided in the dorm cafeterias?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Thanks for your input.  I’m not cynical or self-centered but my views are colored by my personal experience.  I have never met a young basketball or football player from my hood that doesn’t want to go pro.  I guess in the hood we separate the scholars from the athletes fairly early.
> 
> 
> And what happens to those that flame out.  What about those that never got a start.  You take away some of the sports you knock out a certain amount of people not going to school.  I have kids who play for me that may not be motivated at school without sport.  The ticket would be getting soccer scholarships and educational funds that offset the ultimate cost of an education.  MacDre you are good with leaving those kids behind.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> It’s all about our complicated history.  It is what it is.  My life is great.  I’m trying to find solutions to help kids. I’m not an expert.
> But I think there’s problems with access in soccer and I don’t like the system.


Here is the Truth @MacDre .  You do not like soccer in America and you daughter is on a pro path in Mexico.  What if she doesn't cut it.  Would you want her to play the highest level she could or are you willing to tell her to quit after her senior year of private school.   
What about my son who loves the sport?  Has a good grade point average, we have some money saved  and if he gets part of the small amount of a soccer scholarship it could help.  It may also help with one of his top fives schools.  Are you saying you are the one willing to say sucks to be you?


----------



## SoccerFan4Life

dad4 said:


> To be fair, club soccer as a college fund is a sucker’s bet.
> 
> If you don’t believe me, add up total soccer scholarship money per year for all schools.  Then add up total club fees per year for all clubs.  It’s not even close.
> 
> As for admissions, if your goal is getting into college and doing well there, hitting the books seems a lot more direct.


Bingo!    You are exactly right. The ROI makes no sense in terms of dollars when spending 5 years of ECNL/DA to get a scholarship. There are exceptions for the very elite but that’s a small group 


Do it for love of the sport but not for the scholarships because moving forward it’s going to be tougher to chase those scholarships.  

I have two recent examples of nephews/ friends that spent so much on DA/ECNL to find challenges in college soccer.  My niece was getting offered a scholarship at San Marcos (CSU ) but she was told to change her major because  Nursing was going to interfere with soccer practices.  She just  focused on nursing. 


My neighbor had few scholarships coming out as a starting goalie for Seattle Sounders academy.   The parents focused on academics so he went to Harvard.   He played in his freshman year but when he asked to miss 2 practices a month to attend a business club meeting at school, they said no.   No exceptions because soccer was very important.   He quit soccer and focused on academics.


----------



## vegasguy

Couple things.... WCC is a conference without football so mens soccer should remain strong in that conference.  Olympic Sports often raise money through foundations to offset costs so if there were funds left over do you funnel that into the general athletic fund (seems fair).  

College sports provide opportunities for all.  I have examples young men and women of all racial backgrounds who would not attend college if it wasn't for sport.  Once they get to college, it is their job to take advantage of their education.  Many find that a college degree is importand and go back to finish their degree after they go pro before they graduate.  Some with pro aspirations stay in school and become successful because they found out the importance of education.  But again MacDre doesn't believe in the late bloomer theory.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I have family that are cops and they’ll tell you that there are serious problems.  If you would’ve watched the Netflix documentary recommended you’d know that the prison system is modern day slavery.  I also am well aware that defendant’s from my hood don’t get the same type of defense as the defendants in the Wellcare fraud case that I worked on for years.


1.  Prison is not slavery.  99% of people in prison earned the right to be there.  Right and wrong is not determined by skin color.
2.  Why should you get the same defense?  If you want a good lawyer, earn the money to pay one or stay the fuck out of jail.  Pretty simple.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

I think we should get rid of Pocahontas Warren because she wants to eliminate student debt after being paid $400k to teach a single class for 4 semesters.


----------



## MacDre

I am NOT good with leaving any kid behind.  
I am however calling on the soccer community to think critically about how they are going to incorporate soccer players from the same communities as the basketball and football who apparently make college sports possible.

I also think when this disenfranchised community is incorporated into the game, soccer will be just as entertaining as basketball and football-then scholarships will be available to all.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Here is the Truth @MacDre .  You do not like soccer in America and you daughter is on a pro path in Mexico.  What if she doesn't cut it.  Would you want her to play the highest level she could or are you willing to tell her to quit after her senior year of private school.
> What about my son who loves the sport?  Has a good grade point average, we have some money saved  and if he gets part of the small amount of a soccer scholarship it could help.  It may also help with one of his top fives schools.  Are you saying you are the one willing to say sucks to be you?


I don’t want to limit opportunities.  I want to include more people.
I also would like your kids to have access to a professional environment too.  I don’t dislike soccer here, I want a better environment for all kids.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Bingo!    You are exactly right. The ROI makes no sense in terms of dollars when spending 5 years of ECNL/DA to get a scholarship. There are exceptions for the very elite but that’s a small group
> 
> 
> Do it for love of the sport but not for the scholarships because moving forward it’s going to be tougher to chase those scholarships.
> 
> I have two recent examples of nephews/ friends that spent so much on DA/ECNL to find challenges in college soccer.  My niece was getting offered a scholarship at San Marcos (CSU ) but she was told to change her major because  Nursing was going to interfere with soccer practices.  She just  focused on nursing.
> 
> 
> My neighbor had few scholarships coming out as a starting goalie for Seattle Sounders academy.   The parents focused on academics so he went to Harvard.   He played in his freshman year but when he asked to miss 2 practices a month to attend a business club meeting at school, they said no.   No exceptions because soccer was very important.   He quit soccer and focused on academics.


ROI worked for us and then some.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> 1.  Prison is not slavery.  99% of people in prison earned the right to be there.  Right and wrong is not determined by skin color.
> 2.  Why should you get the same defense?  If you want a good lawyer, earn the money to pay one or stay the fuck out of jail.  Pretty simple.


You haven’t watched the documentary.

Insurance company paid millions for their defense; defendants paid nothing.


----------



## dad4

Simisoccerfan said:


> ROI worked for us and then some.


Good.  Glad it worked out well, and I do. ot want to take anything away from your kid’s accomplishment.

However, I’d still advise families of younger kids to put money in the college fund before paying the club fees.  For the vast, vast majority of families, club soccer is an entertainment expense.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I am NOT good with leaving any kid behind.
> I am however calling on the soccer community to think critically about how they are going to incorporate soccer players from the same communities as the basketball and football who apparently make college sports possible.
> 
> I also think when this disenfranchised community is incorporated into the game, soccer will be just as entertaining as basketball and football-then scholarships will be available to all.



What do you find dull about college soccer.. you also said it should be eliminated as a college sport and played only as a club sport.  That is such bs.    

Did you see Virginia play this year?  Did you watch the college cup?  Why does a player from the east bay make the game better and more entertaining?  And what is your proof that you so covet.  You have a bias and do not admit it.

 You can not force players to play if they would rather play football or basketball.  Is it not on Moms and Dads to bring them to a sport.  AAU is not cheap..  Football is going the club route with 7v7 and that will not be inexpensive.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dad4 said:


> Good.  Glad it worked out well, and I do. ot want to take anything away from your kid’s accomplishment.
> 
> However, I’d still advise families of younger kids to put money in the college fund before paying the club fees.  For the vast, vast majority of families, club soccer is an entertainment expense.


Agree. I had the college funded for all 3 of my kids.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> What do you find dull about college soccer.. you also said it should be eliminated as a college sport and played only as a club sport.  That is such bs.
> 
> Did you see Virginia play this year?  Did you watch the college cup?  Why does a player from the east bay make the game better and more entertaining?  And what is your proof that you so covet.  You have a bias and do not admit it.
> 
> You can not force players to play if they would rather play football or basketball.  Is it not on Moms and Dads to bring them to a sport.  AAU is not cheap..  Football is going the club route with 7v7 and that will not be inexpensive.


I find the lack of skill in college soccer dull.  MAP says only 4 or 5 college teams plays good soccer.  I also prefer football rules of the game.  I think college soccer is unnecessarily dangerous.

What’s wrong with club sports for a person that does not want to go pro and school is their priority?  Why do you feel college sports are better than club sports for a kid that doesn’t want to turn pro?  Wouldn’t club sports allow a kid more time to focus on their studies while playing the game they love-isn’t excelling academically the priority for this group?

I did not see Virginia play or most of the college cup-what exactly was it that you liked about those games?  In football, basketball, and international soccer/football the vast majority of the “stars” come from lower socioeconomic levels.  Currently, soccer in the USA lacks participation of people from lower socioeconomic levels and lacks the entertainment factor that the Brazilians and Argentinians bring to European football.  I guess you can also include the entertainment factor that Latino’s like Vela bring to MLS.   Watch Fuerte Apache the Carlos Tevez story on Netflix for a clear example of what I’m talking about.

Many kids in my community haven’t been exposed to soccer. Many in my community don’t have parents that can support them in their athletic pursuits. AAU & 7v7 are FREE for folks from my hood-may even get under the table money, house, car etc. Soccer ain’t even in the hood homie!


----------



## messy

MacDre said:


> I find the lack of skill in college soccer dull.  MAP says only 4 or 5 college teams plays good soccer.  I also prefer football rules of the game.  I think college soccer is unnecessarily dangerous.
> 
> What’s wrong with club sports for a person that does not want to go pro and school is their priority?  Why do you feel college sports are better than club sports for a kid that doesn’t want to turn pro?  Wouldn’t club sports allow a kid more time to focus on their studies while playing the game they love-isn’t excelling academically the priority for this group?
> 
> I did not see Virginia play or most of the college cup-what exactly was it that you liked about those games?  In football, basketball, and international soccer/football the vast majority of the “stars” come from lower socioeconomic levels.  Currently, soccer in the USA lacks participation of people from lower socioeconomic levels and lacks the entertainment factor that the Brazilians and Argentinians bring to European football.  I guess you can also include the entertainment factor that Latino’s like Vela bring to MLS.   Watch Fuerte Apache the Carlos Tevez story on Netflix for a clear example of what I’m talking about.
> 
> Many kids in my community haven’t been exposed to soccer. Many in my community don’t have parents that can support them in their athletic pursuits. AAU & 7v7 are FREE for folks from my hood-may even get under the table money, house, car etc. Soccer ain’t even in the hood homie!


The college game is terrible. It barely resembles soccer as played in the rest of the world. It's sheer speed and physicality. Such a shame that the ncaa plays football and basketball so well, but can't play soccer.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> What do you find dull about college soccer.. you also said it should be eliminated as a college sport and played only as a club sport.  That is such bs.
> 
> Did you see Virginia play this year?  Did you watch the college cup?  Why does a player from the east bay make the game better and more entertaining?  And what is your proof that you so covet.  You have a bias and do not admit it.
> 
> You can not force players to play if they would rather play football or basketball.  Is it not on Moms and Dads to bring them to a sport.  AAU is not cheap..  Football is going the club route with 7v7 and that will not be inexpensive.


I have to say I was shocked to see how physical and intense the college games I've watched with my own eyes have been.  My dd played for _________________ for two years and their TC was physical and prepped you for the college game.  Injury after injuries, one physical game after another.  I used to not like that at all because my little dd was the smallest.  However, _______________________________________________________________________always told me to go watch a D1 game.  So I did, with my goat and we both saw how hard and intense it is and it's 100% not for the weak at heart.  One girl tore something and left the game.  Cal State Fullerton had someone get hurt too and they played very very hard.  Like a chip on their shoulders and actually beat SC. I loved the fans I saw at SC ((need better fields)) and the passion with all the students.  It was fun and my dd would have a blast in a game like that.  Its just not what I thought it would be.  Call me naive if you want.  When I watched Stanford play NC this year, I saw some cool soccer on both sides.  Two completely different styles but very fun to watch for me.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I find the lack of skill in college soccer dull.  MAP says only 4 or 5 college teams plays good soccer.  I also prefer football rules of the game.  I think college soccer is unnecessarily dangerous.
> 
> What’s wrong with club sports for a person that does not want to go pro and school is their priority?  Why do you feel college sports are better than club sports for a kid that doesn’t want to turn pro?  Wouldn’t club sports allow a kid more time to focus on their studies while playing the game they love-isn’t excelling academically the priority for this group?
> 
> I did not see Virginia play or most of the college cup-what exactly was it that you liked about those games?  In football, basketball, and international soccer/football the vast majority of the “stars” come from lower socioeconomic levels.  Currently, soccer in the USA lacks participation of people from lower socioeconomic levels and lacks the entertainment factor that the Brazilians and Argentinians bring to European football.  I guess you can also include the entertainment factor that Latino’s like Vela bring to MLS.   Watch Fuerte Apache the Carlos Tevez story on Netflix for a clear example of what I’m talking about.
> 
> Many kids in my community haven’t been exposed to soccer. Many in my community don’t have parents that can support them in their athletic pursuits. AAU & 7v7 are FREE for folks from my hood-may even get under the table money, house, car etc. Soccer ain’t even in the hood homie!


Please do not talk down to me like I do not know soccer. I know it is your style of trying to make yourself look like the smartest man in the room but it isn't necessary.

Playing a varsity sport for your school is completely different than club. 

Emotionally for the players but you would say that is on them. Watch the College Cup or The Blue/Green Game and watch the fans, watch the players and see the emotion they bring to the game. You won't know the power of Daryl Dike because you choose not to watch. You need to depend on MAP's opinion of 4 or 5 teams are good and the rest stink because you do not watch. You miss Zak Stefen dominating games from the box, Tryston Blackmon being quietly the best player on the field,Julie Johnson Ertz killing at Santa Clara, and Rose LaVelle changing games at Wisconsin because you don't like it. 

I agree it isn't a beautiful style and it is different but the passion does not change. What is the difference between how how a team from the second division in Brazil celebrate as opposed to Tufts Men winning the championship. The answer is their is not a difference. Trust me Tufts athletes are students first as are Stanford Men and Women. The pride does not change. 

It is something you do not get from a college club sport with a volunteer coach, having to pay for your own travel and no backing from your school. I have personally felt the difference between college varsity and a college club sport albeit a long time ago. 

You also do not get the Blue / Green game when those two universities play each other at the club level. I have seen it. Those kids play with pride and passion but the feel is different. The experience is different for the players


----------



## kickingandscreaming

MacDre said:


> I find the lack of skill in college soccer dull.  MAP says only 4 or 5 college teams plays good soccer.  I also prefer football rules of the game.  I think college soccer is unnecessarily dangerous.
> 
> I did not see Virginia play or most of the college cup-what exactly was it that you liked about those games?  In football, basketball, and international soccer/football the vast majority of the “stars” come from lower socioeconomic levels.  Currently, soccer in the USA lacks participation of people from lower socioeconomic levels and lacks the entertainment factor that the Brazilians and Argentinians bring to European football.  I guess you can also include the entertainment factor that Latino’s like Vela bring to MLS.   Watch Fuerte Apache the Carlos Tevez story on Netflix for a clear example of what I’m talking about.
> 
> Many kids in my community haven’t been exposed to soccer. Many in my community don’t have parents that can support them in their athletic pursuits. AAU & 7v7 are FREE for folks from my hood-may even get under the table money, house, car etc. Soccer ain’t even in the hood homie!


I'd say college soccer is a direct reflection of US club soccer and, in general, soccer in the US. While access to club soccer can be improved, the reason you enjoy watching the "stars" you mention isn't due to their club soccer access. It is due to the soccer culture. They played all the time, in their neighborhood streets, playgrounds and parks with no coaches near them. Even in the US, if a youngster is "star" level and plays in public at all, a club coach will find her and she won't have to worry about club tuition.

I am also more entertained by skill than physical play and I would like to see the game called more closely to facilitate a game where skill has the opportunity to overcome physical play. Hockey (non-fighting) skill and entertainment has improved immensely from my youth as has basketball from the days of the Bad Boys in Detroit. However, that is just part of the equation. This hit home for me a few years ago when watching a U14 game among two top level clubs at an ECNL showcase. The team that started the game with the kick off immediately lofted the ball deep to the opponents defensive corner. As long as top teams can thrive with this as a viable strategy, soccer skill entertainment value will be limited. I like to see teams and players that prefer the ball at their feet instead of at their opponents' feet. Part of getting to this point is "better" training, but the few hours a week of club training isn't enough without a significant does of "soccer culture" outside the club confines.

You'd enjoy watching Catarina Macario.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I find the lack of skill in college soccer dull.  MAP says only 4 or 5 college teams plays good soccer.  I also prefer football rules of the game.  I think college soccer is unnecessarily dangerous.
> 
> What’s wrong with club sports for a person that does not want to go pro and school is their priority?  Why do you feel college sports are better than club sports for a kid that doesn’t want to turn pro?  Wouldn’t club sports allow a kid more time to focus on their studies while playing the game they love-isn’t excelling academically the priority for this group?
> 
> I did not see Virginia play or most of the college cup-what exactly was it that you liked about those games?  In football, basketball, and international soccer/football the vast majority of the “stars” come from lower socioeconomic levels.  Currently, soccer in the USA lacks participation of people from lower socioeconomic levels and lacks the entertainment factor that the Brazilians and Argentinians bring to European football.  I guess you can also include the entertainment factor that Latino’s like Vela bring to MLS.   Watch Fuerte Apache the Carlos Tevez story on Netflix for a clear example of what I’m talking about.
> 
> Many kids in my community haven’t been exposed to soccer. Many in my community don’t have parents that can support them in their athletic pursuits. AAU & 7v7 are FREE for folks from my hood-may even get under the table money, house, car etc. Soccer ain’t even in the hood homie!



To continue, AAU and 7v7 is not free for everyone in the neighborhood in your area.  It is free for those only deemed good enough to be on that team so that team can show how good a team from that area can be.   Little Johnny, who is a little slower, little shorter and can not hit a 3 is not getting any car or any free money under the table.  The "hood" seems who is left behind.  Also it is the Neighborhood that deems what sports are worth for their neighborhood.  Is little Suzy going to get money under the table because she is a phenom on the soccer field?  Bet?  Soccer is accessible, their are less expensive leagues.  Why not start an AYSO or NYS league in your neighborhood.  How many parents in Richmond are going to put their kid in that league. It is where most kids start.

Also, do not act like every basketball player is great and has flair or style because they are poor and from the "hood".  That is not reality anymore.  It is still there but not the full truth today.  Just like it is  not the full truth in baseball, football or soccer.  There are great success stories but there are great success stories in middle class too.  Kobe.. Stef..  SI did an article a few years ago stating that the majority of football players drafted where from middle or lower middle class families.

I watched the Tevez presser when he left Red Devils to Citizen Blue.  Funny you did not mention players like Drogba, Boateng or Dempsey.  Great players from lower income worlds.


----------



## vegasguy

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'd say college soccer is a direct reflection of US club soccer and, in general, soccer in the US. While access to club soccer can be improved, the reason you enjoy watching the "stars" you mention isn't due to their club soccer access. It is due to the soccer culture. They played all the time, in their neighborhood streets, playgrounds and parks with no coaches near them. Even in the US, if a youngster is "star" level and plays in public at all, a club coach will find her and she won't have to worry about club tuition.
> 
> I am also more entertained by skill than physical play and I would like to see the game called more closely to facilitate a game where skill has the opportunity to overcome physical play. Hockey (non-fighting) skill and entertainment has improved immensely from my youth as has basketball from the days of the Bad Boys in Detroit. However, that is just part of the equation. This hit home for me a few years ago when watching a U14 game among two top level clubs at an ECNL showcase. The team that started the game with the kick off immediately lofted the ball deep to the opponents defensive corner. As long as top teams can thrive with this as a viable strategy, soccer skill entertainment value will be limited. I like to see teams and players that prefer the ball at their feet instead of at their opponents' feet. Part of getting to this point is "better" training, but the few hours a week of club training isn't enough without a significant does of "soccer culture" outside the club confines.
> 
> You'd enjoy watching Catarina Macario.


It is ok to play the game that reflects your countries personality.   Brazilian greats play with flair and dancelike.. like Carnival.. Argentinians play with a like more couple glasses of wine dancing in the town square to samba feel.  Germans can be very structured, strong engineered feel, Spain is more like a bullfight flair beautiful and dangerous, Italy has more of a Sunday feel to their game dinner with our family style arguing with each other constantly but they love and have each others back, Netherlands defined, technical, artistic.. Ivory Coast, fast hunter like.. lionlinke... America.. we grind it out work hard not the best but driven for success even when people want to hold us back.  Our best successes did not come from the prettiest games.  We are strong, fast and direct.. defend when our backs are against the wall.  I am good with it and I am good not winning the World Cup but I want us too.
The point is there are so many styles and it is great.  It makes the game wonderful.  When  you try to force it to be something it is not you may not qualify for the World Cup and that is worse than not winning it.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> To continue, AAU and 7v7 is not free for everyone in the neighborhood in your area.  It is free for those only deemed good enough to be on that team so that team can show how good a team from that area can be.   Little Johnny, who is a little slower, little shorter and can not hit a 3 is not getting any car or any free money under the table.  The "hood" seems who is left behind.  Also it is the Neighborhood that deems what sports are worth for their neighborhood.  Is little Suzy going to get money under the table because she is a phenom on the soccer field?  Bet?  Soccer is accessible, their are less expensive leagues.  Why not start an AYSO or NYS league in your neighborhood.  How many parents in Richmond are going to put their kid in that league. It is where most kids start.
> 
> Also, do not act like every basketball player is great and has flair or style because they are poor and from the "hood".  That is not reality anymore.  It is still there but not the full truth today.  Just like it is  not the full truth in baseball, football or soccer.  There are great success stories but there are great success stories in middle class too.  Kobe.. Stef..  SI did an article a few years ago stating that the majority of football players drafted where from middle or lower middle class families.
> 
> I watched the Tevez presser when he left Red Devils to Citizen Blue.  Funny you did not mention players like Drogba, Boateng or Dempsey.  Great players from lower income worlds.


Here's my issue if you have a goat at 7-9 years old in the hood or not.  I lived__________________________________________________________________________________ and we had I think 7 soccer clubs  and only two were home grown, plus local AYSO.  The other 5 were affiliates from bigger clubs looking to take market share from the mom & pop clubs like the Hawks. One girl lived far, far away between Temecula and Indio.  She was fast as hell and just so happened to be black too.  Anyway, dad had two jobs and mom had one.  Little girl was playing AYSO and all the parents got pissed off because she was twice as fast as the other girls and scored and scored some more.  They told her to go play club.  She comes to play club and she's the fastest, but not twice as fast.  These parents make dumb comments like, "no skills, just fast."  How about teach the fast ones to have more skill?  Dam if you do and dam if you don;t.  People told me to stop complaining that my baby girl was blocked from the GDA because of HS and they told me to go play local DPL or SCDSL.  We took a guest game in and she scored at will and those parents got all mad and said things like, "I can;t believe a player like her would come down to our level and score on us like.  What a show off" You really can;t win with some you.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Please do not talk down to me like I do not know soccer. I know it is your style of trying to make yourself look like the smartest man in the room but it isn't necessary.
> 
> Playing a varsity sport for your school is completely different than club.
> 
> Emotionally for the players but you would say that is on them. Watch the College Cup or The Blue/Green Game and watch the fans, watch the players and see the emotion they bring to the game. You won't know the power of Daryl Dike because you choose not to watch. You need to depend on MAP's opinion of 4 or 5 teams are good and the rest stink because you do not watch. You miss Zak Stefen dominating games from the box, Tryston Blackmon being quietly the best player on the field,Julie Johnson Ertz killing at Santa Clara, and Rose LaVelle changing games at Wisconsin because you don't like it.
> 
> I agree it isn't a beautiful style and it is different but the passion does not change. What is the difference between how how a team from the second division in Brazil celebrate as opposed to Tufts Men winning the championship. The answer is their is not a difference. Trust me Tufts athletes are students first as are Stanford Men and Women. The pride does not change.
> 
> It is something you do not get from a college club sport with a volunteer coach, having to pay for your own travel and no backing from your school. I have personally felt the difference between college varsity and a college club sport albeit a long time ago.
> 
> You also do not get the Blue / Green game when those two universities play each other at the club level. I have seen it. Those kids play with pride and passion but the feel is different. The experience is different for the players


I apologize If I have offended you.  You are actually one of my favorite coaches on this board.  I can feel that your care about the game and kids greatly.   I can feel your passion and your power to reach kids because you’ve touched me by your comments.  I am who I am because of dudes like you.  I also was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to show deference out of respect.  I’m not an expert at soccer, I was recently exposed to the game by my daughter.  I’m here trying to learn the game.  I promise, I’m not hiding the ball.

Last summer, I took my kid to Lyon for the semi-finals and finals of the women’s world cup.  My kid and I were impressed with Rose Lavelle and Kady Diani of France.  I thought Leke Martens and Tobin Heath were overrated; my kid remembers Heath as the player that over dribbled and missed 2 wide open shots on 2 separate occasions.  So what’s so great about Tobin Heath?  I’m sincerely trying to understand the game and assess where my kid falls.

The reason that I don’t watch college soccer and the NWSL is because I suspect that most of it is bad soccer and I don’t want my kid to be influenced by it. Similar to how I don’t want my kid exposed to the negativity I was exposed to as a kid-a bad environment is a bad environment. I love the passion of our kids. However, I think our kids suffer from extreme low expectations. For me, it’s not okay to say “our kids suck at soccer, but they sure are passionate.” 
I understand I am fortunate for my child’s soccer experience and I would like your kid to have the same experience; why does this offend you?

I don’t want to minimize opportunities for amateur sports.  I’m being passive aggressive with a certain group on this board (which includes myself)-they know who they are.  I’m calling on them to do the right thing.  If I wanted to destroy college sports I’d do it-I wouldn’t be on a forum debating the merits.


----------



## MacDre

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'd say college soccer is a direct reflection of US club soccer and, in general, soccer in the US. While access to club soccer can be improved, the reason you enjoy watching the "stars" you mention isn't due to their club soccer access. It is due to the soccer culture. They played all the time, in their neighborhood streets, playgrounds and parks with no coaches near them. Even in the US, if a youngster is "star" level and plays in public at all, a club coach will find her and she won't have to worry about club tuition.
> 
> I am also more entertained by skill than physical play and I would like to see the game called more closely to facilitate a game where skill has the opportunity to overcome physical play. Hockey (non-fighting) skill and entertainment has improved immensely from my youth as has basketball from the days of the Bad Boys in Detroit. However, that is just part of the equation. This hit home for me a few years ago when watching a U14 game among two top level clubs at an ECNL showcase. The team that started the game with the kick off immediately lofted the ball deep to the opponents defensive corner. As long as top teams can thrive with this as a viable strategy, soccer skill entertainment value will be limited. I like to see teams and players that prefer the ball at their feet instead of at their opponents' feet. Part of getting to this point is "better" training, but the few hours a week of club training isn't enough without a significant does of "soccer culture" outside the club confines.
> 
> You'd enjoy watching Catarina Macario.
> [/
> Catarino Macario greatly influenced the development plan of my daughter.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> It is ok to play the game that reflects your countries personality.   Brazilian greats play with flair and dancelike.. like Carnival.. Argentinians play with a like more couple glasses of wine dancing in the town square to samba feel.  Germans can be very structured, strong engineered feel, Spain is more like a bullfight flair beautiful and dangerous, Italy has more of a Sunday feel to their game dinner with our family style arguing with each other constantly but they love and have each others back, Netherlands defined, technical, artistic.. Ivory Coast, fast hunter like.. lionlinke... America.. we grind it out work hard not the best but driven for success even when people want to hold us back.  Our best successes did not come from the prettiest games.  We are strong, fast and direct.. defend when our backs are against the wall.  I am good with it and I am good not winning the World Cup but I want us too.
> The point is there are so many styles and it is great.  It makes the game wonderful.  When  you try to force it to be something it is not you may not qualify for the World Cup and that is worse than not winning it.


I agree.  However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations.  I don’t consider kick ball a style.  All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Please do not talk down to me like I do not know soccer. I know it is your style of trying to make yourself look like the smartest man in the room but it isn't necessary.
> 
> Playing a varsity sport for your school is completely different than club.
> 
> Emotionally for the players but you would say that is on them. Watch the College Cup or The Blue/Green Game and watch the fans, watch the players and see the emotion they bring to the game. You won't know the power of Daryl Dike because you choose not to watch. You need to depend on MAP's opinion of 4 or 5 teams are good and the rest stink because you do not watch. You miss Zak Stefen dominating games from the box, Tryston Blackmon being quietly the best player on the field,Julie Johnson Ertz killing at Santa Clara, and Rose LaVelle changing games at Wisconsin because you don't like it.
> 
> I agree it isn't a beautiful style and it is different but the passion does not change. What is the difference between how how a team from the second division in Brazil celebrate as opposed to Tufts Men winning the championship. The answer is their is not a difference. Trust me Tufts athletes are students first as are Stanford Men and Women. The pride does not change.
> 
> It is something you do not get from a college club sport with a volunteer coach, having to pay for your own travel and no backing from your school. I have personally felt the difference between college varsity and a college club sport albeit a long time ago.
> 
> You also do not get the Blue / Green game when those two universities play each other at the club level. I have seen it. Those kids play with pride and passion but the feel is different. The experience is different for the players


This too:








						USC head coach Ali Khosroshahin
					






					www.topdrawersoccer.com


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> I agree.  However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations.  I don’t consider kick ball a style.  All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill


The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent.  It’s not a dance off or a style contest.  Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out.  There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style.  But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.


----------



## jpeter

My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a  few of them, knows several coaches.

Mens college soccer has some great players  and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.

With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS,  out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL.  Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly. 

Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now








						NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season
					

Thanks to an effort spearheaded by Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform.




					www.socceramerica.com
				




For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years. 

My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since.  He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.   

He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman.  Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air.  He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent.  It’s not a dance off or a style contest.  Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out.  There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style.  But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.


The USMNT can’t even qualify for the World Cup; so we’re not winning enough.  Low expectations and a ethnocentric mentality will not get us to the World Cup.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

vegasguy said:


> It is ok to play the game that reflects your countries personality.   Brazilian greats play with flair and dancelike.. like Carnival.. Argentinians play with a like more couple glasses of wine dancing in the town square to samba feel.  Germans can be very structured, strong engineered feel, Spain is more like a bullfight flair beautiful and dangerous, Italy has more of a Sunday feel to their game dinner with our family style arguing with each other constantly but they love and have each others back, Netherlands defined, technical, artistic.. Ivory Coast, fast hunter like.. lionlinke... America.. we grind it out work hard not the best but driven for success even when people want to hold us back.  Our best successes did not come from the prettiest games.  We are strong, fast and direct.. defend when our backs are against the wall.  I am good with it and I am good not winning the World Cup but I want us too.
> The point is there are so many styles and it is great.  It makes the game wonderful.  When  you try to force it to be something it is not you may not qualify for the World Cup and that is worse than not winning it.


I'd argue soccer that in the US our style reflects our skill level more than our personality. For US born and raised "play with flair", I give you Oscar Robertson, Pistol Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan ... you get the idea. I'd also argue that the Brazilian's don't play with flair just because that is their culture, they play with flair because they can.


----------



## messy

Simisoccerfan said:


> The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent.  It’s not a dance off or a style contest.  Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out.  There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style.  But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.


This post is Exhibit A of why the US still sucks at soccer and, in fact, loses so much. No style, no system, you lose. Ask Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson or Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> The USMNT can’t even qualify for the World Cup; so we’re not winning enough.  Low expectations and a ethnocentric mentality will not get us to the World Cup.


Yes this last cycle was a train wreck. But you might be surprised that the men’s team has been in 10 World Cups.  More than all but 14 nations.


----------



## dad4

Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?

That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking.  And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

messy said:


> This post is Exhibit A of why the US still sucks at soccer and, in fact, loses so much. No style, no system, you lose. Ask Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson or Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola.


Barcelona went to far with their style.  Even they had to start playing more direct on occasion.


----------



## MacDre

jpeter said:


> My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a  few of them, knows several coaches.
> 
> Mens college soccer has some great players  and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.
> 
> With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS,  out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL.  Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly.
> 
> Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season
> 
> 
> Thanks to an effort spearheaded by Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.socceramerica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years.
> 
> My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since.  He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.
> 
> He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman.  Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air.  He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.


Thanks for sharing.  Your son is a perfect example of kids that I’m trying to help.  I’ve heard several times that are men fall behind developmentally during college years.  From what I’m seeing in Mexico, are boys are at a disadvantage after 12.  In Mexico, 2008 boys will either sink or swim this upcoming year.  I think we are falling behind developmentally way before college.
Your kid sounds like he’s close to 18...maybe he can come to TJ and see how it goes.  PM if you’re interested.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dad4 said:


> Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?
> 
> That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking.  And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.


Don‘t try to read that into my statement!  There is no room for dirty play. If you knew me and what my dd went through you would know that is not what I meant.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Yes this last cycle was a train wreck. But you might be surprised that the men’s team has been in 10 World Cups.  More than all but 14 nations.


How many have they won?  Almost only counts in horseshoes!


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?
> 
> That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking.  And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.


Yes, I witnessed that style years back and still do.  The only time my wife ever yelled at a kid on the other team was years ago when a Ref was not looking and one kid whacked another kid in the back of the leg all because the other kid scored on her.  HS school is tough too and I hear college as well.  DAD4, 100% I agree that soccer in some places have been rugby and very dangerous.  I have pics of my dd with a broken foot, broken wrist, mild concussion and and other injury I don;t remember.  My dd was not allowed to do headers either.  Now she is but very selective.  Too many dumb injuries in girls soccer and we need safety rules and maybe Corona can help us with that.  No more rough play.


----------



## Ellejustus

jpeter said:


> My son and I have attended over a 100 college games over the years and he's trained with a  few of them, knows several coaches.
> 
> Mens college soccer has some great players  and universities do a good job in helping students athletes prepare for professions outside the sport.
> 
> With the short season and general style of play in the past they have done a rather poor job of preparing athletes for higher levels of play behind college. Very few even make to the MLS,  out of those even fewer stick around most linger on the second team or USL.  Besides Jordan Morris most would be hard pressed to name college soccer players who have made it professionaly.
> 
> Apparently the proposed split season for men is not going to happen in the foreseeable future now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA hits pause button on men's college soccer's quest for split-season
> 
> 
> Thanks to an effort spearheaded by Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski, the NCAA seemed on the brink of approving major reform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.socceramerica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the serious soccer athletes playing 3 months doesn't get it done for what should be some prime development years.
> 
> My son's first soccer mentor was a college star who's had a nice long, and lucrative career in the MX league since.  He remembers all the things he used to have to run around to do in the off-season including playing as a amateur on a semi-pro team and was hoping there would be a better way when he gets to that point.
> 
> He's always had a hard time seeing the return on investment from a pure soccer standpoint in the college mens game. So much so he didn't even want to consider college soccer until he was a HS sophomore when one of the schools advocating the split season told him things where going to be different by the time he would be a college freshman.  Now with that out of the picture he had a video conference on Friday about that and the scholarship pool money that's now is up in the air.  He is now reassessing his options and verbal commitment.


Look what Coach Mirelle said from the woman's side of this.  This is why we went for GDA.  Not college.  Sorry, we went for pro because of statements like this.  We didnt join the GDA for college.  Why would we?  We would just go to ECNL. because that's what ECNL was selling, not pros.  It got all mixed up everyone and we need to separate the players.

*SA: Do you imagine a future in which the girls' pathway to the full national team doesn't include college soccer?

MIRELLE VAN RIJBROEK*: *I could imagine everything. *What really happens I don’t know. For *98%* of the players college is perfect. If your goal is to get a scholarship via soccer. If you like playing but your main goal is getting your degree.

I*f you have the dream and ambition to become a professional player and want to become a national team player, the college program and the way it is organized now will not be enough anymore.* This basically has to do with the development of high-performance programs in some other leading nations. Three and a half months doesn’t help you to develop yourself internationally, if you compare this with other countries like France, Spain, England, Germany, Netherlands, Japan, etc. Girls in those countries from the age of 17 years already play in senior women’s leagues. With a year-around program, high-quality programs. The best with the best.

*So, for the top 2% players in the United States I could imagine a hybrid model. A year-around performance program that prepares players for international soccer but also helps you to get a degree. This could be in collaboration with college. Or it could also be a different pathway.*

College soccer has been very good for the system for many years. It was good in an era when it was advanced compared to soccer programs in the rest of the world. Other countries didn’t have this sort of program and equal opportunities. This has changed and continues to change. Nowadays, to play and compete on the elite international level the college program is not enough anymore. It’s too short. The competition in three months is too many games in a short period. It impacts the physical health of the player. *For the top 2% of the players. college soccer will not be good enough anymore in the future.*


----------



## messy

Simisoccerfan said:


> Barcelona went to far with their style.  Even they had to start playing more direct on occasion.


Agreed...at least after a while and new personnel. 
We don't have systems or stars. 
The US women, at least, always have stars and a great psychology.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I agree.  However, in America I don’t think we have a style and suffer from low expectations.  I don’t consider kick ball a style.  All countries have passionate athletes; that’s not an excuse for an extreme lack of skill


Thank you for the clarification i truly appreciate that and the kind words.  

For debate purposes you did say there is  no place for college soccer above the club level.  You will miss out on doctors and lawyers and teachers who pulled themselves out their neighborhoods and found good mentors in college if they are only playing club level.  I do not have numbers as club v college has never been studied but on one of my squads I can say that if they can not play college soccer they will most likely not have the means to go or the want to go.  Club sports are paid and funded by the players.  Intramural sports are free but different too.

America does have a style but we have lost our way. Not sure if you remember the 94 team, the 98, 02, team 06, & 10 and even 14 to a point.  We are gritty, we defend and counter..  we do not possess like others and do not have the on the ball skill with a full team that others do but we have our style.   We are adrift because everyone gets caught up we need to play more this way so we bring in players from Germany... or we need to play more Latin players because it is in their culture.. I do not deny we need to bring in our best but we need to bring in our best and play our way.  Million ways to skin a cat. 

It is  not always pretty but not every La Liga or Serie A team plays pretty.  Watch the ANC and you will not be watching pretty soccer but you will see pretty players.  we have very very talented players but we are so caught up in the next Messi we lose our way.  Be the next them.. Marta actually said that best.  

I am a possession wanting to play out of the back coach.  Others may disagree.  The other team can not score if they do  not have the ball but there are times you need to get past your own philosophy and change a bit to have success.  I most recently told a squad do you want to be Arianna Grande or Meltallica.  They got the point and really picked it up and before the end of it all this year we had hit our stride and had high hopes in the final four of state cup.  Metallica is not always pretty but trust me their style is definitely effective and there is beauty in a mosh pit and a stage dive.

Hiding your daughter from a style whether you like it or not is not always the best.  Tobin Heath has flair.. brash confidence and is setting you up for her next nutmeg.. you may not like it but it is awesome.. we all see the Ronaldino flair and successes.. you do not see the thousands of times it did  not come off.   Many would rather watch Messi but me.. I liked Inesta better. Give me Oliver Kahn over Ederson any day.  We all have our opinions of beauty or most of us would still be single. 

Lastly, no one is making excuses for skill or say it is ok to suck as long as you play with passion.  We are competitive and want to win it is in our nature.  The true soccer culture is  not complacent in our desire to build better soccer and we are frustrated that the needle is not being moved faster.  But we also are realists and know the managers of the pyramid may be the one making it crumble.


----------



## vegasguy

messy said:


> The college game is terrible. It barely resembles soccer as played in the rest of the world. It's sheer speed and physicality. Such a shame that the ncaa plays football and basketball so well, but can't play soccer.


College game is much much different than the pro game.  In some cases college is influencing the pro games.


----------



## vegasguy

If you do not believe soccer is a physical sport by nature you maybe smoking pot in the west indies and love Neymars antics. Full disclosure I feel Neymar is a talent who has wasted his talent.  Ask Mr.  Shakira Pique if soccer is physical.  Not dirty but not wholesome either.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Whatever style allows you to win is the right style?
> 
> That's often the rationalization for playing dirty when the ref isn't looking.  And exhibit one for why our injury rates are high.


Which way is in accordance with the LOTG?


----------



## foreveryoung

Simisoccerfan said:


> The goal of a soccer game is to outscore the opponent.  It’s not a dance off or a style contest.  Instead it’s like a giant interactive puzzle where you try and try again until one team figures it out.  There is no one style that is the right style. Certainly spectators can prefer a style.  But whatever style that allows you to win on a given day is the right style.


What I see is that in the US, soccer is played like football, which makes sense as that is the predominant sport here.  We choose soccer players that are big and fast and we like to send long balls down the field like a quarter back to a wide receiver.  We use size and strength to beat opponents versus skill.  You are right in that there’s nothing “wrong” with this, except that the game of soccer has evolved over the past 20 years to a more sophisticated style and we will not be able to compete internationally if we don’t also evolve our play, starting at the youth level.
On a personal level, I find US soccer boring to watch and find international soccer much more entertaining.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Which way is in accordance with the LOTG?


LOTG as written, or as interpreted?  They don’t match.

I have no problem with long ball.  It is an essential part of keeping the opposing team honest as they pressure.

But a significant fraction of “direct” or “physical” soccer is really just a euphemism for running into the other players and shoving people around.  To me, it’s clearly against LOTG, but seldom called.


----------



## MacDre

foreveryoung said:


> What I see is that in the US, soccer is played like football, which makes sense as that is the predominant sport here.  We choose soccer players that are big and fast and we like to send long balls down the field like a quarter back to a wide receiver.  We use size and strength to beat opponents versus skill.  You are right in that there’s nothing “wrong” with this, except that the game of soccer has evolved over the past 20 years to a more sophisticated style and we will not be able to compete internationally if we don’t also evolve our play, starting at the youth level.
> On a personal level, I find US soccer boring to watch and find international soccer much more entertaining.


I liked basketball as a kid.  US soccer has the same problems as this small town basketball team in Hoosiers.  









						Hoosiers (film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> If you do not believe soccer is a physical sport by nature you maybe smoking pot in the west indies and love Neymars antics. Full disclosure I feel Neymar is a talent who has wasted his talent.  Ask Mr.  Shakira Pique if soccer is physical.  Not dirty but not wholesome either.


Is Tobin Heath considered world class? Is it uncommon to see players like Heath?  I’ve heard the term Coever monkey used for kids that are skillful but don’t know how to apply the skill because it wasn’t learned in the proper context-Do you think this term applies to Heath?  What are your thoughts on Heath’s world cup performance?  What am I missing?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> Is Tobin Heath considered world class? Is it uncommon to see players like Heath?  I’ve heard the term Coever monkey used for kids that are skillful but don’t know how to apply the skill because it wasn’t learned in the proper context-Do you think this term applies to Heath?  What are your thoughts on Heath’s world cup performance?  What am I missing?


Perspective. She won three NCAA Championships. Two Olympics.  Two World Cups. Two NASL Championships.  Countless other lesser events.  Two time US Soccer Female Athlete of the Year. Runner up MAC Hermann Award. I’d say that qualifies as World Class.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Perspective. She won three NCAA Championships. Two Olympics.  Two World Cups. Two NASL Championships.  Countless other lesser events.  Two time US Soccer Female Athlete of the Year. Runner up MAC Hermann Award. I’d say that qualifies as World Class.


Deyna Castellanos was nominated by FIFA in 2017 for the best player award.  I also heard there were problems with awards in the NWSL this year so those trophies don’t help much.  
I’m looking for personal views not just jumping on the bandwagon!


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Is Tobin Heath considered world class? Is it uncommon to see players like Heath?  I’ve heard the term Coever monkey used for kids that are skillful but don’t know how to apply the skill because it wasn’t learned in the proper context-Do you think this term applies to Heath?  What are your thoughts on Heath’s world cup performance?  What am I missing?


You’re missing everything! Geez!  Are you kidding me?


----------



## Emma

MacDre said:


> Deyna Castellanos was nominated by FIFA in 2017 for the best player award.  I also heard there were problems with awards in the NWSL this year so those trophies don’t help much.
> I’m looking for personal views not just jumping on the bandwagon!


Tobin Heath is a World Class Soccer Player.  She has great skills, can beat players one v one, can make accurate passes under pressure, and is able to get back to defensively.  If you watch her play, you will see that she plays goal to goal.  Now, does she make mistakes?  Yes.  Are there times she made the wrong decision or whiffed the ball?  Yes.  Check out Messi and CR, they both lose the ball more times than they score.  They both have whiffed the balls multiple times on 1v1s against goalies.  Does that make them less of a player?  no.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> LOTG as written, or as interpreted?  They don’t match.
> 
> I have no problem with long ball.  It is an essential part of keeping the opposing team honest as they pressure.
> 
> But a significant fraction of “direct” or “physical” soccer is really just a euphemism for running into the other players and shoving people around.  To me, it’s clearly against LOTG, but seldom called.


You seem to be on both sides of this argument.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> You seem to be on both sides of this argument.


Long ball to a person makes sense to stretch the defense.  

What does that have to do with encouraging your CM to play like a wrecking ball?


----------



## MacDre

Emma said:


> Tobin Heath is a World Class Soccer Player.  She has great skills, can beat players one v one, can make accurate passes under pressure, and is able to get back to defensively.  If you watch her play, you will see that she plays goal to goal.  Now, does she make mistakes?  Yes.  Are there times she made the wrong decision or whiffed the ball?  Yes.  Check out Messi and CR, they both lose the ball more times than they score.  They both have whiffed the balls multiple times on 1v1s against goalies.  Does that make them less of a player?  no.


Thanks.  And for the record, I’m not talking trash about her.  I have heard great things about her.  I was just disappointed by her world cup performance.  I also think I lost credibility with my kid because we specifically went to Lyon to see Heath and were both disappointed with her overall performance.

I am also new to soccer so I am not sure if I am evaluating Heath using the proper metrics.    I get that players go in and out of form.
Are players like Heath rare?  What distinguishes her from other wingers?  Is there a game w/Heath that you could recommend I watch?
Why is an advanced winger/forward playing “box to box?”


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> You’re missing everything! Geez!  Are you kidding me?


No, it’s a serious question.  I’m new to soccer and I don’t understand.  Just seeking clarification. I am no expert buddy.


----------



## vegasguy

dad4 said:


> LOTG as written, or as interpreted?  They don’t match.
> 
> I have no problem with long ball.  It is an essential part of keeping the opposing team honest as they pressure.
> 
> But a significant fraction of “direct” or “physical” soccer is really just a euphemism for running into the other players and shoving people around.  To me, it’s clearly against LOTG, but seldom called.



Laws of the game are interpreted match to match by the HR and his staff.  They are guidelines to follow to keep the game moving in a proper manner.  Think of it as a speed limit.  Some cops give you leeway at 10mph over and others stop everyone that goes 3mph over.  Referees are the same thing.  Howard Webb was a great ref.  He was disciplined when needed but let the game manage itself for the most part.
Direct is not the same as physical.  Two different things.  A team can play direct and yet still not be physical and a physical team can also be very possessive.  Direct also does not imply you 6 or 8s are wrecking ball although it can be more of the duty of a 6 to take a professional foul to stop the counter.  Happens all the time in all the leagues.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Laws of the game are interpreted match to match by the HR and his staff.  They are guidelines to follow to keep the game moving in a proper manner.  Think of it as a speed limit.  Some cops give you leeway at 10mph over and others stop everyone that goes 3mph over.  Referees are the same thing.  Howard Webb was a great ref.  He was disciplined when needed but let the game manage itself for the most part.
> Direct is not the same as physical.  Two different things.  A team can play direct and yet still not be physical and a physical team can also be very possessive.  Direct also does not imply you 6 or 8s are wrecking ball although it can be more of the duty of a 6 to take a professional foul to stop the counter.  Happens all the time in all the leagues.


So why the disgust with Neymar?  His antics seem like an appropriate response to professional fouls.


----------



## Kicknit22

The problem with most people is this perception that the game of soccer is supposed to be played one way.


MacDre said:


> No, it’s a serious question.  I’m new to soccer and I don’t understand.  Just seeking clarification. I am no expert buddy.


Okay, McD.  Now......I’m sorry.  This last statement of yours clears up a whole lot, with regards to most, if not all, of your previous posts.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Is Tobin Heath considered world class? Is it uncommon to see players like Heath?  I’ve heard the term Coever monkey used for kids that are skillful but don’t know how to apply the skill because it wasn’t learned in the proper context-Do you think this term applies to Heath?  What are your thoughts on Heath’s world cup performance?  What am I missing?


Simple answer is yes you are missing historical context.  It is like asking if Paul Scholes was world class.  Some can argue he benefitted from being with the MNU 94 class and was small talented on the ball. Ok scorer but missed passes and sitters for England NT.  The other side of that is ask Xavi his opinion.  He once called him the greatest midfielder he played against.  See what those who know say.  My opinion she had a piss poor world cup.  But I thought and still think we hold on to glory to long on the womens side.  We have so much talent and depth but we hold the previous team to esteem and give them their due.  We are doing it now with Heath and Lloyd.  Just my opinion.  Spain has fallen into this trap and are trying to dig out.  Germans too.  

Heath is World Class a goal for kids to emmulate. By your thought process you may have a tough time saying Messi is World Class.  Watch his last two World Cups.  He had good games but man he made a ton of errors.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> The problem with most people is this perception that the game of soccer is supposed to be played one way.
> 
> Okay, McD.  Now......I’m sorry.  This last statement of yours clears up a whole lot, with regards to most, if not all, of your previous posts.


Elaborate.  Share your perspective.  Tell me why.


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> The problem with most people is this perception that the game of soccer is supposed to be played one way.
> 
> Okay, McD.  Now......I’m sorry.  This last statement of yours clears up a whole lot, with regards to most, if not all, of your previous posts.


I;m new to dude.  I came from hoops and baseball.  This sport is nothing like I grew up in


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> So why the disgust with Neymar?  His antics seem like an appropriate response to professional fouls.


Appropriate or embellished?  He stays standing "Play on" may net a better result than free kick.  The extra roll and loud screams are his reputation now.  He is more Instagram twitter highlight that full substance.  How many young boys did the Neymar at training during the last world cup.  He great but doesn't have the drive of a Messi or Ronaldo.. he is a step below them and a just a step above Bale.  Another wasted talent.  Personality has something to do with this too I guess.  It is just my opinion.


----------



## Copa9

vegasguy said:


> Thank you for the clarification i truly appreciate that and the kind words.
> 
> For debate purposes you did say there is  no place for college soccer above the club level.  You will miss out on doctors and lawyers and teachers who pulled themselves out their neighborhoods and found good mentors in college if they are only playing club level.  I do not have numbers as club v college has never been studied but on one of my squads I can say that if they can not play college soccer they will most likely not have the means to go or the want to go.  Club sports are paid and funded by the players.  Intramural sports are free but different too.
> 
> America does have a style but we have lost our way. Not sure if you remember the 94 team, the 98, 02, team 06, & 10 and even 14 to a point.  We are gritty, we defend and counter..  we do not possess like others and do not have the on the ball skill with a full team that others do but we have our style.   We are adrift because everyone gets caught up we need to play more this way so we bring in players from Germany... or we need to play more Latin players because it is in their culture.. I do not deny we need to bring in our best but we need to bring in our best and play our way.  Million ways to skin a cat.
> 
> It is  not always pretty but not every La Liga or Serie A team plays pretty.  Watch the ANC and you will not be watching pretty soccer but you will see pretty players.  we have very very talented players but we are so caught up in the next Messi we lose our way.  Be the next them.. Marta actually said that best.
> 
> I am a possession wanting to play out of the back coach.  Others may disagree.  The other team can not score if they do  not have the ball but there are times you need to get past your own philosophy and change a bit to have success.  I most recently told a squad do you want to be Arianna Grande or Meltallica.  They got the point and really picked it up and before the end of it all this year we had hit our stride and had high hopes in the final four of state cup.  Metallica is not always pretty but trust me their style is definitely effective and there is beauty in a mosh pit and a stage dive.
> 
> Hiding your daughter from a style whether you like it or not is not always the best.  Tobin Heath has flair.. brash confidence and is setting you up for her next nutmeg.. you may not like it but it is awesome.. we all see the Ronaldino flair and successes.. you do not see the thousands of times it did  not come off.   Many would rather watch Messi but me.. I liked Inesta better. Give me Oliver Kahn over Ederson any day.  We all have our opinions of beauty or most of us would still be single.
> 
> Lastly, no one is making excuses for skill or say it is ok to suck as long as you play with passion.  We are competitive and want to win it is in our nature.  The true soccer culture is  not complacent in our desire to build better soccer and we are frustrated that the needle is not being moved faster.  But we also are realists and know the managers of the pyramid may be the one making it crumble.


There was an article written by the LA Galaxy 5, 6, 7 years ago, not sure.  But in it, they talked about how soccer was changed for at least the next decade or more because of a US National Coach, a former UCLA coach, as I remember, in the early 90's, and how his politics of selecting 3/4 of the national team pool of being current or former UCLA players excluding some of the top talent in the country.  It is politics like that which inhibits the country moving forward with talent in the soccer world.  I wish they would republish the article. In the end it is the coaches in the trenches trying to develop players from the very youngest to the oldest that will determine our future as a competitive country.  No matter how all this turns out, we will at least have a population that loves the game and will raise little ballers so who knows what the future holds.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Long ball to a person makes sense to stretch the defense.
> 
> What does that have to do with encouraging your CM to play like a wrecking ball?


Nothing.  That was my point.  

You said "But a significant fraction of “direct” or “physical” soccer is really just a euphemism for running into the other players and shoving people around. To me, it’s clearly against LOTG, but seldom called. "


----------



## Kicknit22

Ellejustus said:


> I;m new to dude.  I came from hoops and baseball.  This sport is nothing like I grew up in


Lol!   Again.......


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> No, it’s a serious question.  I’m new to soccer and I don’t understand.  Just seeking clarification. I am no expert buddy.


For someone "new to soccer" you seem to have some well-developed opinions.


----------



## espola

Kicknit22 said:


> The problem with most people is this perception that the game of soccer is supposed to be played one way.


Without getting out of my couch I can think of different styles that are commonly called possession, direct, park the bus, and kill time - to say nothing of different strategies for set plays.  A well-coached team may only be proficient in one particular style, but a well-coached defense should be able to recognize what style the opponent is playing and match it appropriately.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Appropriate or embellished?  He stays standing "Play on" may net a better result than free kick.  The extra roll and loud screams are his reputation now.  He is more Instagram twitter highlight that full substance.  How many young boys did the Neymar at training during the last world cup.  He great but doesn't have the drive of a Messi or Ronaldo.. he is a step below them and a just a step above Bale.  Another wasted talent.  Personality has something to do with this too I guess.  It is just my opinion.


For this debate, let’s go with embellished.  I think an embellished overreaction is an appropriate response for a offensive player to deter professional defensive fouls.


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> For someone "new to soccer" you seem to have some well-developed opinions.


Legal training


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> Without getting out of my couch I can think of different styles that are commonly called possession, direct, park the bus, and kill time - to say nothing of different strategies for set plays.  A well-coached team may only be proficient in one particular style, but a well-coached defense should be able to recognize what style the opponent is playing and match it appropriately.


Just as a well coached can change their formation mid game to adjust to the opponent


----------



## Kicknit22

So what? I grew up a football and baseball player.  But soccer has always been around.  Doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about it, or basketball, or any other sport.  I’m a sports junkie!  Sure, rules. I learned once my kiddos got into into it.  I’m very competitive. Not ultra, but pretty nuts sometimes. I admit it.  The point of competition is to win.  So, whatever style works to gain the W, ultimately is what matters.  Just my opinion.  If you can’t stop the long ball to the speedy forward, your problem.  One team needs to adjust, period! Or you lose.   All the fancy footwork is impressive as hell, entertaining, and fun to watch.  But, in the end, if it doesn’t help you win the game, just for show.  Like the great Herm Edwards said, “you play to win the game”.  I can appreciate all styles.  But, and this is purely personal opinion, cannot stand to watch MOST men’s games due to flopping and rolling around screaming agony.  Just can’t stand it.  Hardly watchable to me.  I LOVE pure athleticism.  Often on display in both the men’s and women’s games. 
So, in my opinion, the USMNT needs to figure out how to be winners and adopt a winners attitude.  This is something they try hard to pretend to have. Just seems like we’ve always been the second tier nation.  Not our national pastime, so we’re the ones trying to fit in with the big boys of Europe.  Women have been the bad asses for so long, everyone else is wanting to fit into their crowd.  I don’t see the men ever getting there.  Unless they start playing like a bunch of US women, and stop acting like a bunch of little pansies.  For now, I’m sticking with the winners. GO LADIES!


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> Without getting out of my couch I can think of different styles that are commonly called possession, direct, park the bus, and kill time - to say nothing of different strategies for set plays.  A well-coached team may only be proficient in one particular style, but a well-coached defense should be able to recognize what style the opponent is playing and match it appropriately.


Excellent take sir.  I remember my dd____________________________________________________________________________team that took on____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________and they "parked the bus" and almost beat our team in 2015.  That was the worst game of soccer I ever saw.  I won;t mention the clubs name but that brand should be outlawed and only used in last 5 minutes of a big time match.  That was the first time I ever heard that term in soccer.  I knew of The Bus with my Steelers and he ran people over and we won Super Bowl


----------



## Kicknit22

Man I’m BORED!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> So what? I grew up a football and baseball player.  But soccer has always been around.  Doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about it, or basketball, or any other sport.  I’m a sports junkie!  Sure, rules. I learned once my kiddos got into into it.  I’m very competitive. Not ultra, but pretty nuts sometimes. I admit it.  The point of competition is to win.  So, whatever style works to gain the W, ultimately is what matters.  Just my opinion.  If you can’t stop the long ball to the speedy forward, your problem.  One team needs to adjust, period! Or you lose.   All the fancy footwork is impressive as hell, entertaining, and fun to watch.  But, in the end, if it doesn’t help you win the game, just for show.  Like the great Herm Edwards said, “you play to win the game”.  I can appreciate all styles.  But, and this is purely personal opinion, cannot stand to watch MOST men’s games due to flopping and rolling around screaming agony.  Just can’t stand it.  Hardly watchable to me.  I LOVE pure athleticism.  Often on display in both the men’s and women’s games.
> So, in my opinion, the USMNT needs to figure out how to be winners and adopt a winners attitude.  This is something they try hard to pretend to have. Just seems like we’ve always been the second tier nation.  Not our national pastime, so we’re the ones trying to fit in with the big boys of Europe.  Women have been the bad asses for so long, everyone else is wanting to fit into their crowd.  I don’t see the men ever getting there.  Unless they start playing like a bunch of US women, and stop acting like a bunch of little pansies.  For now, I’m sticking with the winners. GO LADIES!


That's the most open you've ever been.  I appreciate that.  Were all ultra nuts here and extremely competitive creatures.  It's ingrained in us from the time we fight with our siblings for food.  Win with what you got is my motto.  A good coach will change.  Some coaches won;t and you better have MJ on your team.  I just hate, "park the bus."  All other ways I donl;t care either, just win baby!!!


----------



## Kicknit22

Oh shit!!  I’m agreeing with EJ!  Lol! All good buddy!


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Oh shit!!  I’m agreeing with EJ!  Lol! All good buddy!


The isolation is getting to you.  Be strong brotha!


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> The isolation is getting to you.  Be strong brotha!


So true!!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> You haven’t watched the documentary.
> 
> Insurance company paid millions for their defense; defendants paid nothing.


I don't need to watch a documentary to know prison inmates are 2 steps away from being wild animals.  And if your idea of "slavery" is free rent, free food, free electricity, free medical, free legal representation and a free college degree, you don't need a documentary... you need a reality check.

In THIS life we're all in, there is no "fairness to life".  Wealthy people or insurance companies... they were getting a good defense.  Success and money buy a lot of things.  If you're wanting a good lawyer and you're poor, don't be a criminal.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> So why the disgust with Neymar?  His antics seem like an appropriate response to professional fouls.


Neymar is a talented bitch that dives and rolls when his ass is handed to him, that's why.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Legal training


So if you're new to the game, where is your basis for saying your young daughter was not being developed/appreciated/scouted and needed to go to Tijuana?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> For this debate, let’s go with embellished.  I think an embellished overreaction is an appropriate response for a offensive player to deter professional defensive fouls.


So you are on with embellished.  That foul that takes four rolls and a scream when your squad is down by a goal and  the injured player is down for 8 minutes but gets up proper when the ref is ready to take the player off.  You are not asking if there is injury time.  You are ok then.  Then you are ok with Mike Harden and kicking out on a three even though the space from the knees directly to the floor is the defenders.   You ok with Steph leaning into the space above the defenders shoulders trying to draw the foul but the space above is the defenders.  What about the step in charge that takes place at the foul line but the player ends up back into the standard of the hoop.  That was my move.  You push from the heels.  

Are you ok taking the base and acting as if you are shot if the baseball hits your jersey too?  

If the call is not made, they pound grass and act as if they are wronged.  Stay up and play on and you have beat the defender and may have created the best great goal.  Go down and you get a free kick and Neymar is no sharpshooter.

I get it.  But as I get older, only Roy Keane and Anthony Mason can truly make you roll like that. Ty Domi could in hockey also.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Neymar is a talented bitch that dives and rolls when his ass is handed to him, that's why.


This makes no sense.  Why is he a biatch if he rolls “when he gets his ass handed to him.”  He sounds smart!


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> This makes no sense.  Why is he a biatch if he rolls “when he gets his ass handed to him.”  He sounds smart!


I remember when Vlade would flop for a foul?  Its an art form Outlaw.  Neymar is a master at the foul and gets whacked all the time.  Messi too.  Art work bro and sort of like ballet.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> So if you're new to the game, where is your basis for saying your young daughter was not being developed/appreciated/scouted and needed to go to Tijuana?


Not what I said.  I alleged my kid wasn’t being scouted because she was in Mexico.  I also pointed out disparities in treatment.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> Not what I said.  I alleged my kid wasn’t being scouted because she was in Mexico.  I also pointed out disparities in treatment.


If you don’t mind me asking how old is your daughter and what is her soccer goal?


----------



## MacDre

S


Simisoccerfan said:


> If you don’t mind me asking how old is your daughter and what is her soccer goal?


She’s 12 and pro is her goal.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> This makes no sense.  Why is he a biatch if he rolls “when he gets his ass handed to him.”  He sounds smart!


No. He plays like a panzy ass.  It’s NOT an art form. It’s NOT gamesmanship!  It’s just a widely accepted, shitty part of the game.  I hate it. Totally appreciate the NBA rule change on flopping.


----------



## Ellejustus

Ney Mar is just like No Mar.  Stud and great soccer player he is. @Kicknit22  One minute you think I'm ok and the next your all angry. All because of one of the all time greats in Neymar?  Chill out and be happy.  Neymer is and was one of the greatest of all time.  He invents his own moves.  He's silly good.


----------



## Kicknit22

Ellejustus said:


> Ney Mar is just like No Mar.  Stud and great soccer player he is. @Kicknit22  One minute you think I'm ok and the next your all angry. All because of one of the all time greats in Neymar?  Chill out and be happy.  Neymer is and was one of the greatest of all time.  He invents his own moves.  He's silly good.


Haha, I’m not angry.  It’s just that the disagree emoji is gone, and I had only that to show it.  I agree that Neymar is whicked talented.  Like I said before, I always appreciate athleticism and dominance.  But, can you argue what his legacy will be? Sucks for him, I think.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> No. He plays like a panzy ass.  It’s NOT an art form. It’s NOT gamesmanship!  It’s just a widely accepted, shitty part of the game.  I hate it. Totally appreciate the NBA rule change on flopping.


How do you feel about “professional fouls?”


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Haha, I’m not angry.  It’s just that the disagree emoji is gone, and I had only that to show it.  I agree that Neymar is whicked talented.  Like I said before, I always appreciate athleticism and dominance.  But, can you argue what his legacy will be? Sucks for him, I think.


Legacy is that he got rich doing what he loves.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> Ney Mar is just like No Mar.  Stud and great soccer player he is. @Kicknit22  One minute you think I'm ok and the next your all angry. All because of one of the all time greats in Neymar?  Chill out and be happy.  Neymer is and was one of the greatest of all time.  He invents his own moves.  He's silly good.


Silly good, is right.


----------



## vegasguy

kickingandscreaming said:


> Silly good, is right.



I think you missed a comma..

Silly, good are right words.  
Just curious when he will play a full season again.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Legacy is that he got rich doing what he loves.


Sorry Dre, you’re wrong.  That’s just his status.  When people who don’t even follow the sport can identify him with the flop and roll, that’s his legacy.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> How do you feel about “professional fouls?”


If a professional foul is when a defender purposely fouls an attacking player, outside the box, to prevent an easy scoring opportunity, then I’m cool with it.  As long as it’s not a dangerous play.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Sorry Dre, you’re wrong.  That’s just his status.  When people who don’t even follow the sport can identify him with the flop and roll, that’s his legacy.


Call it what you want family.  I’d rather be rich with status rather than broke with a “legacy.”


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> If a professional foul is when a defender purposely fouls an attacking player, outside the box, to prevent an easy scoring opportunity, then I’m cool with it.  As long as it’s not a dangerous play.


Double standard.  Biased and defensive minded.  There are two sides of a coin buddy.


----------



## Kicknit22

Nah!  Mark my words. Some day he’ll hate that people identify him by those antics instead of all the great things and moments he’s brought to the game.  Assuming he doesn’t already.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Double standard.  Biased and defensive minded.  There are two sides of a coin buddy.


No, it’s not a double standard at all!  If there’s a foul, it’s a foul.  Don’t try and pretend, and draw a NON -foul. It’s panzy ass pathetic! Lol!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Double standard.  Biased and defensive minded.  There are two sides of a coin buddy.
> [/QUO


----------



## dad4

Kicknit22 said:


> If a professional foul is when a defender purposely fouls an attacking player, outside the box, to prevent an easy scoring opportunity, then I’m cool with it.  As long as it’s not a dangerous play.


Deliberate foul, outside the box, easy scoring opportunity?

Distance to ball? check.
Defenders?  check.  (otherwise, not easy)
Direction of play?  check.
Distance to goal?  offensive half, but outside the box.  

What you’ve described is a cardable offense.  It’s a red card dogso.  

It’s only a professional foul when refs aren’t willing to call it what it is.  (the USWNT shirt takedown against Germany is a classic example.)


----------



## Kicknit22

dad4 said:


> Deliberate foul, outside the box, easy scoring opportunity?
> 
> Distance to ball? check.
> Defenders?  check.  (otherwise, not easy)
> Direction of play?  check.
> Distance to goal?  offensive half, but outside the box.
> 
> What you’ve described is a cardable offense.  It’s a red card dogso.
> 
> It’s only a professional foul when refs aren’t willing to call it what it is.  (the USWNT shirt takedown against Germany is a classic example.)


What is this gibberish?


----------



## Kicknit22

I’m not talking about a malicious tackle or from behind.  But, I wouldn’t think twice about grabbing a jersey or knocking someone off there path, if it meant, once past me, they had my goalie 1v1.  Give me a foul and them a free kick.  Certainly not an easy goal, comparatively.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> I’m not talking about a malicious tackle or from behind.  But, I wouldn’t think twice about grabbing a jersey or knocking someone off there path, if it meant, once past me, they had my goalie 1v1.  Give me a foul and them a free kick.  Certainly not an easy goal, comparatively.


Likewise, offensive players should flop for the free kick and to keep defenders honest.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Likewise, offensive players should flop for the free kick and to keep defenders honest.


Lame. Come on Dre!


----------



## vegasguy

Flop is a phantom touch where the player (in Ligue 1 Neymar) falls without even being touched or touched slightly but since they have lost control to a 50:50 proposition it is easier for them to go down than stay up and play on.  Think Harden or even better Lebron missing a shot with the defender in his face and eventhough the defender did not touch LeBron he turns to the ref with his pained look grabbing his wrist .  Then he throws his arms up in the air like he is been so wrong that the refs could be against him. Dives are cardable but rarely given.

Professional foul is usually near mid line and during  a turnover with a quick transition. A defender will grab and arm or jersey or shoulder player down.  In most cases the cover defender is still behind the pressure defender but may not be in position to cover.  The defender fouls still trying to at least appear to play the ball .  Yes he takes a yellow. It is in the laws.  Not a red.  Rarely will you see a defender do this if they are in a red card position or if they are last defender.

There is a difference difference between stopping a run and sacrificing your aggression and trying to persuade the ref which against could result in a card against a defender. 

You seem to forget that the game is already built to give the advantage to the offensive player.


----------



## Woobie06

I don't mind the gamesmanship in drawing the foul in any sport, like bball when players lean in on shots, or baseball leaning in the strike zone, or even in pro football when players cry for PI, a hold, or a qb hit to the head.  Somebody mentioned this before.  Part of the game.

It's the excessive rolling around, grabbing the leg, and antics after the foul is called that are part of it in soccer on the men's side that is boorish.  The women act tougher than the men.


----------



## vegasguy

Watch "Neymar • Best dives" on YouTube


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> I don't mind the gamesmanship in drawing the foul in any sport, like bball when players lean in on shots, or baseball leaning in the strike zone, or even in pro football when players cry for PI, a hold, or a qb hit to the head.  Somebody mentioned this before.  Part of the game.
> 
> It's the excessive rolling around, grabbing the leg, and antics after the foul is called that are part of it in soccer on the men's side that is boorish.  The women act tougher than the men.


A ref told me girls are way tougher and meaner than men in soccer.  He also said that's why they have so many dam injuries.  Lot;s of them too.  I wasnt just the greatest club hopper of of all time pals, but I was also known to be the greatest flopper of all time in the south coast league in basketball.  I was #1 with taking the charge


----------



## vegasguy

Agree .  I get it. I do not like the whining behind it or having a trainer come out.  I know coaches who have run sessions on diving . Saw this same coach yell and his keeper to fake injury so he could sub his second keeper out to put in the better keeper and then after the goal sub the other keeper back in because he was  it injured.  

This is diving that is disgusting.  In my opinion this is to a point Neymars mentality.


----------



## dad4

Kicknit22 said:


> What is this gibberish?


That gibberish is the definition of “denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity”, from the laws of the game for soccer.  It is against the rules, and results in a red card, or a yellow card and a PK, depending on location.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Agree .  I get it. I do not like the whining behind it or having a trainer come out.  I know coaches who have run sessions on diving . Saw this same coach yell and his keeper to fake injury so he could sub his second keeper out to put in the better keeper and then after the goal sub the other keeper back in because he was  it injured.
> 
> This is diving that is disgusting.  In my opinion this is to a point Neymars mentality.


My dd got yelled at one time because she got up too fast from getting whacked in the box.  She was told to roll, grab ankle and find tears for the PK so your team can score.  It's called, "selling it."


----------



## vegasguy

Awful.  No place for it in the youth game.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Awful.  No place for it in the youth game.


Whats awful?


----------



## Kicknit22

Ellejustus said:


> Whats awful?


What your daughter was being coached to do!  That’s what’s awful.  Complete  BS


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> What your daughter was being coached to do!  That’s what’s awful.  Complete  BS


Dang.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  She wasn;t taught to lie bro.  She was the shortest and when she was in the box, girls would whack her hard and she would fall and then she would bounce right back up to fight for the ball in the box because she  wanted to score so her team could win.  She was taught at 11 and older to lay in the box, find the area that got whacked and sell it because the ref is usually not close enough to see where the foul took place.  These big girls can;t just keep doing that and get away with hacking my kid or Neymar for that matter. Plus, if you keep getting up the ref will think it wasnt that bad and he won;t blow that dam whistle.  We are trying to win and winning is selling it where I come from


----------



## Woobie06

vegasguy said:


> Agree .  I get it. I do not like the whining behind it or having a trainer come out.  I know coaches who have run sessions on diving . Saw this same coach yell and his keeper to fake injury so he could sub his second keeper out to put in the better keeper and then after the goal sub the other keeper back in because he was  it injured.
> 
> This is diving that is disgusting.  In my opinion this is to a point Neymars mentality.


Agree 100%...I love it when the stetcher/physio comes out, puts on the magic spray and the player pops up ready to go.  I wish there was a way manage the situation where if the stretcher/physio comes out player is removed for a period of time.  Figure out a way to manage the behavior out of the game.  Problem is it penalizes the team that was fouled.


----------



## vegasguy

My point being "sell it"  a 12yr old is impressionable.  The coach telling her to sell it has not place in the youth game.  Just my opinion.  I would teach my player to position with strength smaller or not.  You also mentioned the coach told her to develop tears.  Crying helps get a whistle.  Will that help her in the real world?   I am also curious if you have called for a yellow or red card on a youth player from the parent sideline. 

 Play the game to the whistle.  If you get knocked down get back up.  If you are truly injured stay down.  If you foul someone and the whistle blows, get your butt back and quit whining


----------



## vegasguy

Woobie06 said:


> Agree 100%...I love it when the stetcher/physio comes out, puts on the magic spray and the player pops up ready to go.  I wish there was a way manage the situation where if the stretcher/physio comes out player is removed for a period of time.  Figure out a way to manage the behavior out of the game.  Problem is it penalizes the team that was fouled.



I find more respect for players who get gashed, get wrapped and are trying to get back in with blood dripping down their face.    Hell Abby Wambaugh got staples on the sideline and got back in.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Whats awful?


To be clear, I am not calling your daughter awful.  I am saying being coached to develop tears and embellish a touch, hack or potential dive is awful.  You don't coach players to do that at least in my philosophy.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> My point being "sell it"  a 12yr old is impressionable.  The coach telling her to sell it has not place in the youth game.  Just my opinion.  I would teach my player to position with strength smaller or not.  *You also mentioned the coach told her to develop tears.  Crying helps get a whistle*.  Will that help her in the real world?   I am also curious if you have called for a yellow or red card on a youth player from the parent sideline.
> 
> Play the game to the whistle.  If you get knocked down get back up.  If you are truly injured stay down.  If you foul someone and the whistle blows, get your butt back and quit whining


C'mon man, that was a joke.  My dd cried all the time when big girls whacked her and she whacked them back by winning and with some tears along the way.  You folks take me way too serious.  Lighten up!!!  No coach told her to make up tears either, only I did so we could win and brag that our team was #1.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> I find more respect for players who get gashed, get wrapped and are trying to get back in with blood dripping down their face.    Hell Abby Wambaugh got staples on the sideline and got back in.


That's BS soccer and it's why all the girls go to ER every weekend Vegas guy.  My dd had so many injuries it was uncalled for all because_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> To be clear, I am not calling your daughter awful.  I am saying being coached to develop tears and embellish a touch, hack or potential dive is awful.  You don't coach players to do that at least in my philosophy.


OK, thank's for being clear.  I'll warn all of you right now.  When the games begin, when my dd gets whacked in the box, she's going down for the count and will let the ref make the call, not you guys.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> I find more respect for players who get gashed, get wrapped and are trying to get back in with blood dripping down their face.    Hell Abby Wambaugh got staples on the sideline and got back in.


What the hell is the girls league you're a part of bro?  I will make sure we skip the the game with your squad.  My gosh!!!!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> This makes no sense.  Why is he a biatch if he rolls “when he gets his ass handed to him.”  He sounds smart!


Here's why:


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Not what I said.  I alleged my kid wasn’t being scouted because she was in Mexico.  I also pointed out disparities in treatment.


How old was she when she wasn't getting scouted, Dre, and why would you expect her to in Tijuana?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> C'mon man, that was a joke.  My dd cried all the time when big girls whacked her and she whacked them back by winning and with some tears along the way.  You folks take me way too serious.  Lighten up!!!  No coach told her to make up tears either, only I did so we could win and brag that our team was #1.


sarcasm is lost in text and you my fried as funny as somethings are that you say you are quite a talker so it is hard to discern between reality and jokes.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> That's BS soccer and it's why all the girls go to ER every weekend Vegas guy.  My dd had so many injuries it was uncalled for all because_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________.



Lighten up Francis (Line from Stripes).  I am talking about pro's and adults not youth players.  figured the Abby W reference would tee that one up but obviously you missed that game of hers.    I have held out more players because of a blow to the head than most coaches and I take my players safety over winning any day.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> Ney Mar is just like No Mar.  Stud and great soccer player he is. @Kicknit22  One minute you think I'm ok and the next your all angry. All because of one of the all time greats in Neymar?  Chill out and be happy.  Neymer is and was one of the greatest of all time.  He invents his own moves.  He's silly good.


9 times of of 10 you have to actually make hard contact to get Messi to go down.  And if he goes down, he doesn't act like someone snapped his fibula with their laces.  Neymar is a disgrace and he gets more dive warnings than fouls now.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> How do you feel about “professional fouls?”


I have no issues with professional fouls.  There are good fouls, bad fouls and phantom "Neymar" fouls.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Call it what you want family.  I’d rather be rich with status rather than broke with a “legacy.”


Kim Kardashian is rich.  Her legacy is getting nailed from behind on video.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Lighten up Francis (Line from Stripes).  I am talking about pro's and adults not youth players.  figured the Abby W reference would tee that one up but obviously you missed that game of hers.    I have held out more players because of a blow to the head than most coaches and I take my players safety over winning any day.


I was talking about my 11 year old being taught to win and don;t call me Francis or I will kiss you


----------



## dad4

If you want people. to stop flopping, we need to teach refs to call the fouls.  

Current guidelines and training give preference to keeping game flow at the expense of penalizing fouls.  At higher levels, not much gets called.  It’s rough on kids who play up.

As AR, I’ve talked to more than one ref who explained that he didn’t call the foul because the player didn’t fall.  He saw the trip or push, agreed it was a trip or push.  We both agreed there was no advantage.  But, because the player kept their balance, he allowed it.  

In effect, the rule is “no flop, no whistle”.  So people flop.


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> 9 times of of 10 you have to actually make hard contact to get Messi to go down.  And if he goes down, he doesn't act like someone snapped his fibula with their laces.  Neymar is a disgrace and he gets more dive warnings than fouls now.


I found one Outlaw


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

dad4 said:


> If you want people. to stop flopping, we need to teach refs to call the fouls.
> 
> Current guidelines and training give preference to keeping game flow at the expense of penalizing fouls.  At higher levels, not much gets called.  It’s rough on kids who play up.
> 
> As AR, I’ve talked to more than one ref who explained that he didn’t call the foul because the player didn’t fall.  He saw the trip or push, agreed it was a trip or push.  We both agreed there was no advantage.  But, because the player kept their balance, he allowed it.
> 
> In effect, the rule is “no flop, no whistle”.  So people flop.


I've actually started seeing some officials pull a yellow for 'dangerous play' even though there was no contact made.  It's the intent was malicious, card comes out.  Seems as though I'm also seeing more yellows given, too, once the ball is dead... sometimes 20-30 seconds later... because the fouled player maintained advantage.  That's one I don't remember seeing much of before.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> I found one Outlaw


Yeah... did you see the opponent push down on his head?  That's a bullshit, cheap shot.


----------



## vegasguy

dad4 said:


> If you want people. to stop flopping, we need to teach refs to call the fouls.
> 
> Current guidelines and training give preference to keeping game flow at the expense of penalizing fouls.  At higher levels, not much gets called.  It’s rough on kids who play up.
> 
> As AR, I’ve talked to more than one ref who explained that he didn’t call the foul because the player didn’t fall.  He saw the trip or push, agreed it was a trip or push.  We both agreed there was no advantage.  But, because the player kept their balance, he allowed it.
> 
> In effect, the rule is “no flop, no whistle”.  So people flop.



If you can stay on your feet play through.  LOTG are interpretations/guidelines to keep the flow of the game going.  I am of the belief of stay on your feet if you can.  A flop is that phantom touch.  I think I posted videos.  HR's should be more diligent in calling the phantom touch foul.  But if they call everyone of those they must call every touch.  The game needs a flow.  I appreciate the ref that allows a flow and does not need to be at the forefront of a match.


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... did you see the opponent push down on his head?  That's a bullshit, cheap shot.


and no one hacks Ney?  He just cries more and that is part of who he is.  It goes on all the time, especially with dads on tier 3 teams......lighten up Lester........


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> If you can stay on your feet play through.  LOTG are interpretations/guidelines to keep the flow of the game going.  I am of the belief of stay on your feet if you can.  A flop is that phantom touch.  I think I posted videos.  HR's should be more diligent in calling the phantom touch foul.  But if they call everyone of those they must call every touch.  The game needs a flow.  I appreciate the ref that allows a flow and does not need to be at the forefront of a match.


I'm talking about the box too brah.  That is what I call the money box.  Sell it and get a goal


----------



## eastbaysoccer

ST. EDWARD’S UNIVERSITY DISCONTINUES SIX ATHLETICS PROGRAMS IN RESPONSE TO ECONOMIC IMPACTS OF CORONAVIRUS



*AUSTIN -* As the effects of the coronavirus continue to impact every sector of the economy, higher education is no exception. Along with other universities across the country, St. Edward's is making difficult, but financially sound decisions for the future of our institution. At the end of the spring semester, the university is discontinuing six athletic programs: men's and women's tennis, men's and women's golf and men's soccer. Cheer will be transitioned to a club team under the guidance of the RecWell Department.

"I am deeply grateful to the coaches who have worked diligently over the years to build nationally recognized and well-respected programs. The coaches and student-athletes in these programs are talented and hard-working, and I respect them immensely," said Debbie Taylor, associate vice president for Athletics. "As we make this difficult transition, I know that all of our coaches and staff members have our student-athletes as a top priority and will work closely with them to support their needs."

All scholarship-eligible student-athletes impacted by this reduction will have their athletic scholarships honored for the duration of their undergraduate enrollment at St. Edward's. Those wishing to transfer and compete at another institution will be given their full and immediate release.

These decisions follow a comprehensive evaluation of the athletics program including sport sponsorship, state of available facilities, cost of running programs and future enrollment expectations. The university is committed to providing our student-athletes an environment of academic excellence, quality facilities and opportunities to compete and achieve at the highest levels. This immediate action to redistribute financial resources allows the university to continue programing for: men's and women's basketball, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's track, women's soccer, volleyball, baseball, softball and esports.

With these remaining teams, the university's athletics program remains in compliance with NCAA DII and Lone Star Conference membership requirements of sport sponsorship. We continue our commitment to support gender equity in athletics and empowering student-athletes to reach their maximum potential in academic success, athletic competition and personal development.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> and no one hacks Ney?  He just cries more and that is part of who he is.  It goes on all the time, especially with dads on tier 3 teams......lighten up Lester........


Of course he gets hacked.  All the best attackers get hacked.  Neymar goes down and makes "I just got hit by sniper fire" faces everytime.  If you asked 100 people who the worst 'diver' is, Neymar gets 95 votes.  There's no glory in that.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Here’s Our List of Colleges’ Reopening Models
					

<i>The Chronicle</i> is teaming up with Davidson College’s College Crisis Initiative, which has collected reopening models for nearly 3,000 institutions, to present a fuller view of the fall.




					www.chronicle.com


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> Of course he gets hacked.  All the best attackers get hacked.  Neymar goes down and makes "I just got hit by sniper fire" faces everytime.  If you asked 100 people who the worst 'diver' is, Neymar gets 95 votes.  There's no glory in that.


I love watching him play.  Emotional players appeal to me for some reason


----------



## vegasguy

eastbaysoccer said:


> Here’s Our List of Colleges’ Reopening Models
> 
> 
> <i>The Chronicle</i> is teaming up with Davidson College’s College Crisis Initiative, which has collected reopening models for nearly 3,000 institutions, to present a fuller view of the fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chronicle.com


that is positive news.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> I love watching him play.  Emotional players appeal to me for some reason


He's a very talented player but I don't see appeal in a guy continuously overacting on plays with the intent of drawing bullshit fouls.  It's cowardly.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> How old was she when she wasn't getting scouted, Dre, and why would you expect her to in Tijuana?


Yes my kid started receiving attention early.  I expect my kid to be scouted because she plays regularly approximately 30 minutes away from the Olympic training center in Chula Vista; they went to Europe for Sergino Dest! I expect her to be scouted because she made a professional roster at 12.  I expect her to be scouted because she’s a talented US citizen-her father, grandfather, and uncle are Marine Corps vets.  I expect her to be scouted because I’m being told she’s really good.  I expect her to be scouted so I don’t let my kid play for another country that IS scouting her.  I expect her to be scouted because at 12 she had exceeded the accomplishments of a 13 year old that was playing up on a YNT.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Yes my kid started receiving attention early.  I expect my kid to be scouted because she plays regularly approximately 30 minutes away from the Olympic training center in Chula Vista; they went to Europe for Sergino Dest! I expect her to be scouted because she made a professional roster at 12.  I expect her to be scouted because she’s a talented US citizen-her father, grandfather, and uncle are Marine Corps vets.  I expect her to be scouted because I’m being told she’s really good.  I expect her to be scouted so I don’t let my kid play for another country that IS scouting her.  I expect her to be scouted because at 12 she had exceeded the accomplishments of a 13 year old that was playing up on a YNT.



How could she play for another country unless she is a dual citizen or/and has a mother or grandparents of the decent.  Christian Pulisic has dual Citizenship. Julian Green, Sydney Lerouix are also dual citizens as is Omar Gonzalez who played in Liga MX.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> How could she play for another country unless she is a dual citizen or/and has a mother or grandparents of the decent.  Christian Pulisic has dual Citizenship. Julian Green, Sydney Lerouix are also dual citizens as is Omar Gonzalez who played in Liga MX.


From my side my kid qualifies for 5 different National teams.  And potentially 2 more on her mother’s side,  for a total of 7 different teams.


----------



## Dubs

vegasguy said:


> Thank you for the clarification i truly appreciate that and the kind words.
> 
> For debate purposes you did say there is  no place for college soccer above the club level.  You will miss out on doctors and lawyers and teachers who pulled themselves out their neighborhoods and found good mentors in college if they are only playing club level.  I do not have numbers as club v college has never been studied but on one of my squads I can say that if they can not play college soccer they will most likely not have the means to go or the want to go.  Club sports are paid and funded by the players.  Intramural sports are free but different too.
> 
> America does have a style but we have lost our way. Not sure if you remember the 94 team, the 98, 02, team 06, & 10 and even 14 to a point.  We are gritty, we defend and counter..  we do not possess like others and do not have the on the ball skill with a full team that others do but we have our style.   We are adrift because everyone gets caught up we need to play more this way so we bring in players from Germany... or we need to play more Latin players because it is in their culture.. I do not deny we need to bring in our best but we need to bring in our best and play our way.  Million ways to skin a cat.
> 
> It is  not always pretty but not every La Liga or Serie A team plays pretty.  Watch the ANC and you will not be watching pretty soccer but you will see pretty players.  we have very very talented players but we are so caught up in the next Messi we lose our way.  Be the next them.. Marta actually said that best.
> 
> I am a possession wanting to play out of the back coach.  Others may disagree.  The other team can not score if they do  not have the ball but there are times you need to get past your own philosophy and change a bit to have success.  I most recently told a squad do you want to be Arianna Grande or Meltallica.  They got the point and really picked it up and before the end of it all this year we had hit our stride and had high hopes in the final four of state cup.  Metallica is not always pretty but trust me their style is definitely effective and there is beauty in a mosh pit and a stage dive.
> 
> Hiding your daughter from a style whether you like it or not is not always the best.  Tobin Heath has flair.. brash confidence and is setting you up for her next nutmeg.. you may not like it but it is awesome.. we all see the Ronaldino flair and successes.. you do not see the thousands of times it did  not come off.   Many would rather watch Messi but me.. I liked Inesta better. Give me Oliver Kahn over Ederson any day.  We all have our opinions of beauty or most of us would still be single.
> 
> Lastly, no one is making excuses for skill or say it is ok to suck as long as you play with passion.  We are competitive and want to win it is in our nature.  The true soccer culture is  not complacent in our desire to build better soccer and we are frustrated that the needle is not being moved faster.  But we also are realists and know the managers of the pyramid may be the one making it crumble.


As a coach, isn't it ultimately your goal to develop a player(s) that are so techically sound that they can play any style?  In my estimation, the best way to create extremely technical players is to bring them up in a possession based program.  If they exist in those environments from an early age, aren't they presumably better off, in terms of their ability to plug in anywhere?  I'm not telling, I'm asking...


----------



## Dubs

MacDre said:


> Thanks.  And for the record, I’m not talking trash about her.  I have heard great things about her.  I was just disappointed by her world cup performance.  I also think I lost credibility with my kid because we specifically went to Lyon to see Heath and were both disappointed with her overall performance.
> 
> I am also new to soccer so I am not sure if I am evaluating Heath using the proper metrics.    I get that players go in and out of form.
> Are players like Heath rare?  What distinguishes her from other wingers?  Is there a game w/Heath that you could recommend I watch?
> Why is an advanced winger/forward playing “box to box?”


She's very creative and so sound on the ball that she's always willing to take 1,2,3 defenders on to breakdown the defensive.  Sometimes that doesn't work out, but that goes for anyone who plays that way.  Also, the way the USWNT plays, everyone attacks and everyone defends...especially the wingers, so they are going to run goal to goal the whole game.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> From my side my kid qualifies for 5 different National teams.  And potentially 2 more on her mother’s side,  for a total of 7 different teams.


Explain in heritage terms.  Not saying it is not true just want the math.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Explain in heritage terms.  Not saying it is not true just want the math.


Born in Berkeley-USA;
Lived in Mexico 8 yrs-Mexico;
Bahamian/British  decent—Bahamas;
British otherwise than by descent and qualifies for Scotland and England-decendant of the first puritan settlers.  Raheem Sterling of England, Alana Cook USA/England  (possibly), and Wendy Reinard of France are examples of people from the West Indies with ties to Europe.

My wife is French Canadian.  So I think she qualifies for France and Canada too.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The Outlaw said:


> I've actually started seeing some officials pull a yellow for 'dangerous play' even though there was no contact made.  It's the intent was malicious, card comes out.  Seems as though I'm also seeing more yellows given, too, once the ball is dead... sometimes 20-30 seconds later... because the fouled player maintained advantage.  That's one I don't remember seeing much of before.


This is a good trend


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> Yes my kid started receiving attention early.  I expect my kid to be scouted because she plays regularly approximately 30 minutes away from the Olympic training center in Chula Vista; they went to Europe for Sergino Dest! I expect her to be scouted because she made a professional roster at 12.  I expect her to be scouted because she’s a talented US citizen-her father, grandfather, and uncle are Marine Corps vets.  I expect her to be scouted because I’m being told she’s really good.  I expect her to be scouted so I don’t let my kid play for another country that IS scouting her.  I expect her to be scouted because at 12 she had exceeded the accomplishments of a 13 year old that was playing up on a YNT.


I am confused about where you kid is playing.  Also many of the kids that are great at 12 are not great after puberty or they lose interest when boys or HS activities come along.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I am confused about where you kid is playing.  Also many of the kids that are great at 12 are not great after puberty or they lose interest when boys or HS activities come along.


My kid ain’t great but coaches see something in her.  She plays for the official Club Tijuana Fuerzas Basicas U15 squad and is preparing to make a first team debut around 15.


----------



## Ellejustus

Simisoccerfan said:


> I am confused about where you kid is playing.  Also many of the kids that are great at 12 are not great after puberty or they lose interest when boys or HS activities come along.


She's a stud, ((yes, I've seen her play and @Luis Andres #2 has some work today if wants to go pro too)) like my kid and other kids like OM and AT, and AC, SS, MP and all the other greats.  2%ters are what their called and his goat is obviously one them.  He's a smart dad.  Question dads: Who would put their top player goat through this meat grinder in Socal?  This is appalling and disturbing all in one and I'm embarrassed I spent so much time and money sometimes.  Let's applaud the Lad and his dd for wanting to go pro.  Go Pro all the way!!!!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Born in Berkeley-USA;
> Lived in Mexico 8 yrs-Mexico;
> Bahamian/British  decent—Bahamas;
> British otherwise than by descent and qualifies for Scotland and England-decendant of the first puritan settlers.  Raheem Sterling of England, Alana Cook USA/England  (possibly), and Wendy Reinard of France are examples of people from the West Indies with ties to Europe.
> 
> My wife is French Canadian.  So I think she qualifies for France and Canada too.


By FIFA definition your math is wrong.  If your wife is Canadian born there  or her parents are, then yes she has Canada ties.   Unless either of her parents are from France being born there, France is out.   Born in Berkley- USA is in.   Define Bahamian decent but appears they are out and the bigger picture if she is that good "why".   Ties as you say are based on relative blood back to grandparents.  My son's grandparents were both born in America.  There parents were born in other countries so FIFA does not care.  I am of decent of two countries based on both sets of Great Grandparents but FIFA would not allow me to switch there.  Now Mexico, FIFA allows education before the age of 18 (minimum 5yrs).  So Canada, Mexico and USA (with possible France by grand parents).  Birth by FIFA definition ends at Grand-Parents not settlers of a location. 

Alana Cook's (American Born) dad is British thus England not Scotland or any other UK.  Raheem Sterling is Jamaican Born educated in other countries including England qualifies for Home Nations.  Wendie Renard was born in Martinique a protected territory of France and thus of France decent.  Similar to how a Puerto Rican born player would be eligible to play for US.   French Canada is not a protected territory of France. 

I may be wrong in this interpretation of the FIFA rules so please correct me if so.    Your daughter qualifies for a few countries but I would implore you to possibly do more research.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Ellejustus said:


> She's a stud, ((yes, I've seen her play and @Luis Andres #2 has some work today if wants to go pro too)) like my kid and other kids like OM and AT, and AC, SS, MP and all the other greats.  2%ters are what their called and his goat is obviously one them.  He's a smart dad.  Question dads: Who would put their top player goat through this meat grinder in Socal?  This is appalling and disturbing all in one and I'm embarrassed I spent so much time and money sometimes.  Let's applaud the Lad and his dd for wanting to go pro.  Go Pro all the way!!!!


I just struggle tremendously with this.  Your kids haven't even hit the age yet that acl's become all too common, or burnout, or boy's, or a dozen other things that get in the way (like puberty).  Even MAP's kid who is a beast of a player used soccer to leverage getting an excellent degree from UCLA and he has posted that she is studying for the LSAT.  And she is an actual pro player.  

Don't take me wrong.  I think it is great that you are all so proud of your daughters.  I don't doubt they are beasts for their age and I am glad your are encouraging their dreams.  But there is a long, long way between now and then.


----------



## Ellejustus

Simisoccerfan said:


> I just struggle tremendously with this.  Your kids haven't even hit the age yet that acl's become all too common, or burnout, or boy's, or a dozen other things that get in the way (like puberty).  Even MAP's kid who is a beast of a player used soccer to leverage getting an excellent degree from UCLA and he has posted that she is studying for the LSAT.  And she is an actual pro player.
> 
> Don't take me wrong.  I think it is great that you are all so proud of your daughters.  I don't doubt they are beasts for their age and I am glad your are encouraging their dreams.  But there is a long, long way between now and then.


I know you are struggling, that's why I wrote what I did.  My kid was saved from three years of over use.  My dd had not played in the playoffs now for three years. not because she didn;t want to either.  She is in the best shape of her life.  It's her dream Simi, accept that and be happy for her and me.  Why do you even care?  Your dds are doing what they want, let mine do what she wants.  Stop struggling bro and encourage others with a dream.  Again, I came on her because my dd had a dream and______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________so on and so on.  Thanks for being open about your struggles with us.  It helps me understand you way more.  Poor guy, I fee for you.  Come on Francis or Francine, get over it and root your fellow Americans on.


----------



## Kicknit22

Okay, EJ, stop man! Come on!  I don’t have to know you or your DD to know that she’s NOT in the top 1 or 2% along with all those 2 letter kids you list.  You would not be having such an issue with any of the typical BS.  She’d be on easy street, catered to and set up.  Been there and seen it happen, more than once.  I’ll bet she’s high caliber and alll that, but please.  I wish her all the success that she’s hoping for and is willing to work for.  Here’s something I told my girls when they were young and repeated to them every so often, so that it became part of their mindset,......”Within all of us, there’s a will to succeed.  But, not all have the will to prepare for it.  It’s those that do, that achieve and get the most out of success”.   Credit goes to Coach Bobby Knight on that one.  I’m not at all a basketball player, but loved this quote.

Don’t put her on a pedestal, let others do that.  Or let her climb it herself.  JMO


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> Okay, EJ, stop man! Come on!  I don’t have to know you or your DD to know that she’s NOT in the top 1 or 2% along with all those 2 letter kids you list.  You would not be having such an issue with any of the typical BS.  She’d be on easy street, catered to and set up.  Been there and seen it happen, more than once.  I’ll bet she’s high caliber and alll that, but please.  I wish her all the success that she’s hoping for and is willing to work for.  Here’s something I told my girls when they were young and repeated to them every so often, so that it became part of their mindset,......”Within all of us, there’s a will to succeed.  But, not all have the will to prepare for it.  It’s those that do, that achieve and get the most out of success”.   Credit goes to Coach Bobby Knight on that one.  I’m not at all a basketball player, but loved this quote.
> 
> Don’t put her on a pedestal, let others do that.  Or let her climb it herself.  JMO


First of all, I think she's in the top 10% for her age.  I also think she could be in the top 2% for her age group if she played against all the top players in her age group.  Now, if you think, I think, she's top 1% or 2% in this country  of all the female soccer players then your smoking crack bro.  I never said that. She just hasn;t been eliminated yet imo.  She still has a little something, something in the tank if you know what I mean.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> By FIFA definition your math is wrong.  If your wife is Canadian born there  or her parents are, then yes she has Canada ties.   Unless either of her parents are from France being born there, France is out.   Born in Berkley- USA is in.   Define Bahamian decent but appears they are out and the bigger picture if she is that good "why".   Ties as you say are based on relative blood back to grandparents.  My son's grandparents were both born in America.  There parents were born in other countries so FIFA does not care.  I am of decent of two countries based on both sets of Great Grandparents but FIFA would not allow me to switch there.  Now Mexico, FIFA allows education before the age of 18 (minimum 5yrs).  So Canada, Mexico and USA (with possible France by grand parents).  Birth by FIFA definition ends at Grand-Parents not settlers of a location.
> 
> Alana Cook's (American Born) dad is British thus England not Scotland or any other UK.  Raheem Sterling is Jamaican Born educated in other countries including England qualifies for Home Nations.  Wendie Renard was born in Martinique a protected territory of France and thus of France decent.  Similar to how a Puerto Rican born player would be eligible to play for US.   French Canada is not a protected territory of France.
> 
> I may be wrong in this interpretation of the FIFA rules so please correct me if so.    Your daughter qualifies for a few countries but I would implore you to possibly do more research.


The Bahamas was part of the UK until their independence in 1973.  Since my family was in the USA, we accepted British citizenship and permanent residency in the Bahamas.  My daughter IS a British citizen otherwise than by descent-look this up.  Which qualifies her to play for Scotland and England-In essence she can choose because her British citizenship is from the Bahamas.  She has Scottish and English grandparents so she can play for either since her British citizenship is through the Bahamas.   
Currently, a British passport is for England, Scotland, Ireland, and N. Ireland not just England.

I’m not sure about my wife’s family.  I just know they are French with lot’s of family in Nova Scotia and France.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> The Bahamas was part of the UK until their independence in 1973.  Since my family was in the USA, we accepted British citizenship and permanent residency in the Bahamas.  My daughter IS a British citizen otherwise than by descent-look this up.  Which qualifies her to play for Scotland and England-In essence she can choose because her British citizenship is from the Bahamas.  She has Scottish and English grandparents so she can play for either since her British citizenship is through the Bahamas.
> Currently, a British passport is for England, Scotland, Ireland, and N. Ireland not just England.
> 
> I’m not sure about my wife’s family.  I just know they are French with lot’s of family in Nova Scotia and France.


If you say so.  I am just saying FIFA has differing rules than just naturalized and applied for citizenship.  You are the expert though.  If you say she has 7 countries to choose from and you assume because you have French relatives who am I to argue.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Yes my kid started receiving attention early.  I expect my kid to be scouted because she plays regularly approximately 30 minutes away from the Olympic training center in Chula Vista; they went to Europe for Sergino Dest! I expect her to be scouted because she made a professional roster at 12.  I expect her to be scouted because she’s a talented US citizen-her father, grandfather, and uncle are Marine Corps vets.  I expect her to be scouted because I’m being told she’s really good.  I expect her to be scouted so I don’t let my kid play for another country that IS scouting her.  I expect her to be scouted because at 12 she had exceeded the accomplishments of a 13 year old that was playing up on a YNT.


So you think she should be scouted because her relatives are Marines?  Because she's near Chula Vista?  You're told she's really good?

Um, I'm not sure how many 12-year olds are scouted in the U.S. but I can think of maybe 1 total.  I don't want to burst your bubble, and only time will tell where she ends up, but you really can't tell how good a 6th grader is going to be when they're a junior in high school.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> If you say so.  I am just saying FIFA has differing rules than just naturalized and applied for citizenship.  You are the expert though.  If you say she has 7 countries to choose from and you assume because you have French relatives who am I to argue.


I’m sure of 5 and maybe 2 more under my wife.  But, my kid has a British passport and IS a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

5 are clear my wife’s are uncertain.





						British Citizenship By Descent Or Otherwise
					

Every British citizen is either a British citizen otherwise than by descent or a British citizen by descent. This difference is important because the type of citizenship people have decides the way in which they can pass British citizenship on to their children who were born outside the United...



					workpermit.com


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> If you say so.  I am just saying FIFA has differing rules than just naturalized and applied for citizenship.  You are the expert though.  If you say she has 7 countries to choose from and you assume because you have French relatives who am I to argue.


Most in this country only have one country to tryout for.  Lucky #7 for Macdre and his dd.  Let's all be encouraging and cheer him and her on.  We also have Luis and I guess me too that have all claimed our dd would like to play pro and go for a YNT, when their was one.  Why is that so egotistical?  My dd has two to choose from but it's America or bust for her.  That's who she is.  Too each his own and I bet all of you here that if Macdre dd wants to, she will be on some country'a national team.  You can take that to the bank, how's that!!!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Born in Berkeley-USA;
> Lived in Mexico 8 yrs-Mexico;
> Bahamian/British  decent—Bahamas;
> British otherwise than by descent and qualifies for Scotland and England-decendant of the first puritan settlers.  Raheem Sterling of England, Alana Cook USA/England  (possibly), and Wendy Reinard of France are examples of people from the West Indies with ties to Europe.
> 
> My wife is French Canadian.  So I think she qualifies for France and Canada too.


I'm not sure you know how this works.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> The Bahamas was part of the UK until their independence in 1973.  Since my family was in the USA, we accepted British citizenship and permanent residency in the Bahamas.  My daughter IS a British citizen otherwise than by descent-look this up.  Which qualifies her to play for Scotland and England-In essence she can choose because her British citizenship is from the Bahamas.  She has Scottish and English grandparents so she can play for either since her British citizenship is through the Bahamas.
> Currently, a British passport is for England, Scotland, Ireland, and N. Ireland not just England.
> 
> I’m not sure about my wife’s family.  I just know they are French with lot’s of family in Nova Scotia and France.


Unless she has family descent within two (or in some cases three) generations, she won't meet the inheritance requirement.  Of courses, she could also qualify by moving to the country of interest and becoming a citizen there.


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> Yes my kid started receiving attention early.  I expect my kid to be scouted because she plays regularly approximately 30 minutes away from the Olympic training center in Chula Vista; they went to Europe for Sergino Dest! I expect her to be scouted because she made a professional roster at 12.  I expect her to be scouted because she’s a talented US citizen-her father, grandfather, and uncle are Marine Corps vets.  I expect her to be scouted because I’m being told she’s really good.  I expect her to be scouted so I don’t let my kid play for another country that IS scouting her.  I expect her to be scouted because at 12 she had exceeded the accomplishments of a 13 year old that was playing up on a YNT.


This is such a different mindset than mine. I tell my kids not to expect a single thing despite their accomplishments. Work to make the team every year, work in practice every minute to earn your starting spot every single week, work in front of every scout every time. Put your head down and work and make sure you are the best player as far as you can see if you want even a chance at that YNT invite. After you gain something big, enjoy the moment and then pretend you are starting all over. Always have confidence in yourself,  but the second you are complacent or start to have expectations karma will catch you.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> So you think she should be scouted because her relatives are Marines?  Because she's near Chula Vista?  You're told she's really good?
> 
> Um, I'm not sure how many 12-year olds are scouted in the U.S. but I can think of maybe 1 total.  I don't want to burst your bubble, and only time will tell where she ends up, but you really can't tell how good a 6th grader is going to be when they're a junior in high school.


I don’t claim to be an expert.  I think the DOC of Club Tijuana is the one that made the decision regarding my daughter.  Do you think I can make a pro club roster my daughter at 12?  You should call the DOC and share your thoughts.  
I can tell you that her first couple of months in training went very well and she’s still having fun.  As long as she continues to have fun and wants to play, I’ll support it.  Playing in TJ is fun.  When TJ makes it to the finals, she will  play in front of 50,000 fans.


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> This is such a different mindset than mine. I tell my kids not to expect a single thing despite their accomplishments. Work to make the team every year, work in practice every minute to earn your starting spot every single week, work in front of every scout every time. Put your head down and work and make sure you are the best player as far as you can see if you want even a chance at that YNT invite. After you gain something big, enjoy the moment and then pretend you are starting all over. Always have confidence in yourself,  but the second you are complacent or start to have expectations karma will catch you.


I tell mine to stay ready so you don’t have to get ready.  You got me all the way fucked up patna!


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccerfan2 said:


> This is such a different mindset than mine. I tell my kids not to expect a single thing despite their accomplishments. Work to make the team every year, work in practice every minute to earn your starting spot every single week, work in front of every scout every time. Put your head down and work and make sure you are the best player as far as you can see if you want even a chance at that YNT invite. After you gain something big, enjoy the moment and then pretend you are starting all over. Always have confidence in yourself,  but the second you are complacent or start to have expectations karma will catch you.


Or the grown ups cheat, that can happen too soccer fan 2


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> I tell mine to stay ready so you don’t have to get ready.  You got me all the way fucked up patna!


I don’t think I do. You’re all over the place. But, I do genuinely wish you and your daughter well.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I don’t claim to be an expert.  I think the DOC of Club Tijuana is the one that made the decision regarding my daughter.  Do you think I can make a pro club roster my daughter at 12?  You should call the DOC and share your thoughts.
> I can tell you that her first couple of months in training went very well and she’s still having fun.  As long as she continues to have fun and wants to play, I’ll support it.  Playing in TJ is fun.  When TJ makes it to the finals, she will  play in front of 50,000 fans.


I hope your daughter winds up on television... I think we all do... we just hope you remember there's an enormous difference between being a great 12-year old and being a great 16-18 year old and I will probably never grasp why you felt, in your original post, she wasn't being "scouted" enough in NorCal.  Nobody gets scouted at that age, Dre.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> I don’t claim to be an expert.  I think the DOC of Club Tijuana is the one that made the decision regarding my daughter.  Do you think I can make a pro club roster my daughter at 12?  You should call the DOC and share your thoughts.
> I can tell you that her first couple of months in training went very well and she’s still having fun.  As long as she continues to have fun and wants to play, I’ll support it.  Playing in TJ is fun.  When TJ makes it to the finals, she will  play in front of 50,000 fans.


I might be wrong but that is like saying a 12 year old kid playing for the LA Galaxy academy is a pro.  I think your not a pro until you actually get salary for playing soccer.


----------



## Ellejustus

Soccerfan2 said:


> This is such a different mindset than mine. I tell my kids not to expect a single thing despite their accomplishments. *Work *to make the team every year, *work* in practice every minute to earn your starting spot every single week, *work *in front of every scout every time. Put your *head down* and *work* and make sure you are the *best player* as far as you can see if you want even a chance at that YNT invite. After you gain something big, enjoy the moment and then pretend you are starting all over. Always have confidence in yourself,  but the second you are complacent or start to have expectations *karma will catch you*.


I can;t wait for Karma to catch up bro.  Work, work, work and work some more and then quit because it's all work.  You better have fun too at what you love to do.  Work doesn;t sound like fun to me.  To each his own


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Ellejustus said:


> First of all, I think she's in the top 10% for her age.  I also think she could be in the top 2% for her age group if she played against all the top players in her age group.  Now, if you think, I think, she's top 1% or 2% in this country  of all the female soccer players then your smoking crack bro.  I never said that. She just hasn;t been eliminated yet imo.  She still has a little something, something in the tank if you know what I mean.


I have never seen stats about 12 year olds.  But if you look at HS soccer (assuming that most youth soccer when they were 12) the stats say 9.3% of them play College at any level.  2.2% of them play D1.  Probably less than 1% play any meaningful minutes at D1.  Less than maybe 0.01% play one minute as a pro.  Even less make any substantial money beyond their College Scholarship.  Its good to dream and work hard but it is a long road.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> I hope your daughter winds up on television... I think we all do... we just hope you remember there's an enormous difference between being a great 12-year old and being a great 16-18 year old and I will probably never grasp why you felt, in your original post, she wasn't being "scouted" enough in NorCal.  Nobody gets scouted at that age, Dre.


Maybe you misunderstood me because my kid has never played in NorCal to be scouted there.  But I think any US 12 year old girl on a pro roster should be scouted.  Plus she is being scouted by other countries and time is of the essence.
I don’t care if my kid fizzles out, I’m riding the wave as long as she continues to have fun.  My kid is also doing extremely well in school.  She has nothing to lose and much to gain.


----------



## Ellejustus

Simisoccerfan said:


> I have never seen stats about 12 year olds.  But if you look at HS soccer (assuming that most youth soccer when they were 12) the stats say 9.3% of them play College at any level.  2.2% of them play D1.  Probably less than 1% play any meaningful minutes at D1.  Less than maybe 0.01% play one minute as a pro.  Even less make any substantial money beyond their College Scholarship.  Its good to dream and work hard but it is a long road.


Dreamers dream Simi.  The stats are my eyes bro.  I know talent when I see it.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I might be wrong but that is like saying a 12 year old kid playing for the LA Galaxy academy is a pro.  I think your not a pro until you actually get salary for playing soccer.


I kinda agree but a precedent was set by a 13 year old player a year prior.  So what word would you use?


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> I kinda agree but a precedent was set by a 13 year old player a year prior.  So what word would you use?


and my dd was playing against that pro every weekday at practice.  I never said she was going to be pro, only that she wanted to give it a try.  My dd has not had to work that hard yet everyone.  I'm serious.  Just wait.....lol!!!!  These parents are funny.  So up tight over pro.......


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Maybe you misunderstood me because my kid has never played in NorCal to be scouted there.  But I think any US 12 year old girl on a pro roster should be scouted.  Plus she is being scouted by other countries and time is of the essence.
> I don’t care if my kid fizzles out, I’m riding the wave as long as she continues to have fun.  My kid is also doing extremely well in school.  She has nothing to lose and much to gain.


No 12-year old should be on a pro anything.  You said, originally, that you moved her to Tijuana because you were not satisfied with the attention she was getting here.  Am I mistaken about that?  Or did you send her to Tijuana because the schools are better than the richest zip code in the U.S.?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> I kinda agree but a precedent was set by a 13 year old player a year prior.  So what word would you use?


Her dad got her an endorsement deal.   She plays for the Portland Thorns DA team or she did until DA ended.  Not sure what league she will be in next year.   I saw she got 45 minutes in a preseason game for the top team.  https://equalizersoccer.com/2019/03/29/olivia-moultrie-nwsl-portland-thorns-13-years-old-perspective/   The article does a good job describing the issues involved.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I might be wrong but that is like saying a 12 year old kid playing for the LA Galaxy academy is a pro.  I think your not a pro until you actually get salary for playing soccer.





The Outlaw said:


> No 12-year old should be on a pro anything.  You said, originally, that you moved her to Tijuana because you were not satisfied with the attention she was getting here.  Am I mistaken about that?  Or did you send her to Tijuana because the schools are better than the richest zip code in the U.S.?


She goes to a British school that adheres to the British education system.  Everything is also taught in Spanish and English.  Since my kid is a British citizen and tuition at Oxford and Cambridge is reasonable for citizens, I wanted my kid to be prepared to attend if she wants.  
Going to TJ had nothing to do with soccer.  But half of my kids elementary classmates parents were first team Club Tijuana players and it inspired her.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Her dad got her an endorsement deal.   She plays for the Portland Thorns DA team or she did until DA ended.  Not sure what league she will be in next year.   I saw she got 45 minutes in a preseason game for the top team.  https://equalizersoccer.com/2019/03/29/olivia-moultrie-nwsl-portland-thorns-13-years-old-perspective/   The article does a good job describing the issues involved.


What adjective would YOU use to describe her?


----------



## vegasguy

@Ellejustus @MacDre You all think I am arguing or hoping it does not work.  I hope it does.  I am just pointing out FIFA may not accept 7 options based on their law which is different than what most of us consider citizenship.  Players have their citizenship rejected by FIFA all the time.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> @Ellejustus @MacDre You all think I am arguing or hoping it does not work.  I hope it does.  I am just pointing out FIFA may not accept 7 options based on their law which is different than what most of us consider citizenship.  Players have their citizenship rejected by FIFA all the time.


I get it...but you throw it against the wall and see what sticks.  We are not putting all of our eggs in one basket because the process is arbitrary and flawed.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> What adjective would YOU use to describe her?


Experimental?

Not sure how she and her Dad pulled this one off?


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Her dad got her an endorsement deal.   She plays for the Portland Thorns DA team or she did until DA ended.  Not sure what league she will be in next year.   I saw she got 45 minutes in a preseason game for the top team.  https://equalizersoccer.com/2019/03/29/olivia-moultrie-nwsl-portland-thorns-13-years-old-perspective/   The article does a good job describing the issues involved.


Please note Liga MX Femenil does not have the same rules as NWSL.  In Liga MX, U15’s and U17’s travel with the first team and play their games earlier in the day.  They also practice with the first team.  Money and contracts are not an issue for my kid.  So, the distinction is that the kid in the article was on a DA team and my kid is on a pro roster and WILL debut at 15 for Club Tijuana’s first team.  Night and day difference my friend.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Experimental?
> 
> Not sure how she and her Dad pulled this one off?


Fine.  My kid went experimental.  I can live with that.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> What adjective would YOU use to describe her?


Longshot


----------



## Kicknit22

Sure, mine would go along with the experiment as well.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Longshot


I will not say my kid went long-shot.  I prefer experimental!


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Longshot


Where are these great players hiding?
Are they late bloomers?  College coaches from top schools have also spoke to her ability.  So should I tell the top D1 and pro coaches to fuck off?


----------



## Kicknit22

Don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting for her.  She might be a trail blazer for young ladies in the game.  Long shot for sure. However, I’ve seen many a player that are FAR FAR better than her.  Mine played against her a few times.  She wasn’t even the best on her own team. But, to give her credit, she was playing up a year or so.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Where are these great players hiding?
> Are they late bloomers?  College coaches from top schools have also spoke to her ability.  So should I tell the top D1 and pro coaches to fuck off?


Okay, wait!  Your kid has been approached by Pro scouts and Top Div I coaches at 12?  Yet, she can get on the radar for the US system?  Call KUSI, cause, “It Ain’t Right!!”


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> Please note Liga MX Femenil does not have the same rules as NWSL.  In Liga MX, U15’s and U17’s travel with the first team and play their games earlier in the day.  They also practice with the first team.  Money and contracts are not an issue for my kid.  So, the distinction is that the kid in the article was on a DA team and my kid is on a pro roster and WILL debut at 15 for Club Tijuana’s first team.  Night and day difference my friend.


Sounds a lot like a DA team that has a NWSL team to me.  Not sure where Liga MX fits in the world of soccer but some brief googling seems to put it on par with the 2nd Division here in the US.  I could only find a few results for Liga MX teams against US teams.  

I am certainly rooting for your kid and looking forward to hearing of her debut in a few years.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I get it...but you throw it against the wall and see what sticks.  We are not putting all of our eggs in one basket because the process is arbitrary and flawed.


 Wall stick.. throw  none of those things... read thru the lines and you will see I  mapped out your roadblocks.  It gets to a case then you may be prepared.  You gave me examples of players and I gave you the reason for the National team club


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Sounds a lot like a DA team that has a NWSL team to me.  Not sure where Liga MX fits in the world of soccer but some brief googling seems to put it on par with the 2nd Division here in the US.  I could only find a few results for Liga MX teams against US teams.
> 
> I am certainly rooting for your kid and looking forward to hearing of her debut in a few years.


MLS commissioner recently said Liga MX was superior to MLS.  Tigres of Liga MX beat Houston Dash last year.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Wall stick.. throw  none of those things... read thru the lines and you will see I  mapped out your roadblocks.  It gets to a case then you may be prepared.  You gave me examples of players and I gave you the reason for the National team club


How do men who grew up in Germany and the Netherlands whose only ties to the US is their father that served a military tour in Europe compete for the MNT?


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> How do men who grew up in Germany and the Netherlands whose only ties to the US is their father that served a military tour in Europe compete for the MNT?


Isn't it obvious?  The link is through the father.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> Sounds a lot like a DA team that has a NWSL team to me.  Not sure where Liga MX fits in the world of soccer but some brief googling seems to put it on par with the 2nd Division here in the US.  I could only find a few results for Liga MX teams against US teams.
> 
> I am certainly rooting for your kid and looking forward to hearing of her debut in a few years.


Also, I talked to the DOC in Portland-he’s from NorCal.  The DA doesn’t/didn’t come close.  My kid is in a professional league.  Don’t hate the player, hate the game.


----------



## espola

Kicknit22 said:


> Experimental?
> 
> Not sure how she and her Dad pulled this one off?


It is funded through the parents' pyramid business.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> MLS commissioner recently said Liga MX was superior to MLS.  Tigres of Liga MX beat Houston Dash last year.


 I agree with the men's side.  But we are talking about the women's Liga MX league.


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> Isn't it obvious?  The link is through the father.


That’s my point, I have a British passport.  So my kid has a British passport and can play for a UK team the same way those men can play for the USA-they have valid passports and are US citizens through their fathers.  She’s just as eligible to play in the UK as she is the USA.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I agree with the men's side.  But we are talking about the women's Liga MX league.


Houston Lost.  Why?


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> That’s my point, I have a British passport.  So my kid has a British passport and can play for a UK team the same way those men can play for the USA-they have valid passports and are US citizens through their fathers.  She’s just as eligible to play in the UK as she is the USA.


I agree with that.  I think you might have some problem with qualifying for France.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Also, I talked to the DOC in Portland-he’s from NorCal.  The DA doesn’t/didn’t come close.  My kid is in a professional league.  Don’t hate the player, hate the game.


So, she’s forgoing college already? And nobody is hating the player. Just the BS


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> I agree with that.  I think you might have some problem with qualifying for France.


I think worst case scenario is a 2 year residency requirements.  Could also appeal to the discretion of Immigration due to close family ties and make arguments that it’s in the best interest of the nation to immediately grant citizenship.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> So, she’s forgoing college already? And nobody is hating the player. Just the BS


My kid is beginning college early.  She is studying applied mathematics/analytics and should finish University around 18.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> My kid is beginning college early.  She is studying applied mathematics/analytics and should finish University around 18.


Damn! Good for her.  But, I meant, she’s given up her amateur status already.?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> How do men who grew up in Germany and the Netherlands whose only ties to the US is their father that served a military tour in Europe compete for the MNT?


Easy answer for the German/Americans.. and all the same.  Their fathers are American.   Some of them played on the German youth national teams too because they all had German mothers.  Sergio Dest is the kid from the Netherlands.  His father was born in an American-protectorate country and his mother is Dutch.  Throwing softballs here.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Damn! Good for her.  But, I meant, she’s given up her amateur status already.?


Yes.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Easy answer for the German/Americans.. and all the same.  Their fathers are American.   Some of them played on the German youth national teams too because they all had German mothers.  Sergio Dest is the kid from the Netherlands.  His father was born in an American-protectorate country and his mother is Dutch.  Throwing softballs here.


Also an easy answer for British/Americans.  I’m British therefore my kid is British.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

So your 12 year old is a pro.  Will debut first team Liga MX when 15.  Will also graduate from University when 18.  What is next on the list?


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> So your 12 year old is a pro.  Will debut first team Liga MX when 15.  Will also graduate from University when 18.  What is next on the list?


You think I’m making this up?


----------



## Kicknit22

I gotta tell y’all,  I’d be much more of a honk for my child prodigy, than if they were on possible track for pro soccer. Just sayin!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Houston Lost.  Why?


Because it was outside the league and Houston was coming to the end of their season and an exhibition that meant more to Tigres and Houston most likely.  Context means everything.  None of us saw the game so know one really knows .


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> You think I’m making this up?


I honestly can say it cross my mind but I think you are just damn proud of your girl (deservedly so) and your very hopeful of her future.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Also an easy answer for British/Americans.  I’m British therefore my kid is British.


Were you born in the UK or a British protectorate?  I see your point but you understand FIFA rules may be a little bit more than getting a passport.


----------



## Ellejustus

Simisoccerfan said:


> I honestly can say it cross my mind but I think you are just damn proud of your girl (deservedly so) and your very hopeful of her future.


Yay, you believe


----------



## Kicknit22

Simisoccerfan said:


> I honestly can say it cross my mind but I think you are just damn proud of your girl (deservedly so) and your very hopeful of her future.


Way to take the high road.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> I gotta tell y’all,  I’d be much more of a honk for my child prodigy, than if they were on possible track for pro soccer. Just sayin!


I get it.  I don’t like to use prodigy.  I think I have a hyper sensitive special needs child.  I’m happy that she enjoys soccer and isn’t contemplating suicide.  I just like seeing her smile.  She puts pressure on herself.  I have to tell her to lighten up and make her stop taking things so seriously.


----------



## MacDre

I


vegasguy said:


> Because it was outside the league and Houston was coming to the end of their season and an exhibition that meant more to Tigres and Houston most likely.  Context means everything.  None of us saw the game so know one really knows .


 I saw it and Houston took it seriously.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I honestly can say it cross my mind but I think you are just damn proud of your girl (deservedly so) and your very hopeful of her future.


Not really.  Her experience is somewhat typical in my family.  I am just happy my kid is happy.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I
> 
> I saw it and Houston took it seriously.


More than when they had a real league game a couple days later.  I am not saying it was not serious but when it comes to exhibition v league their may be context.  Sub rules change in exhibitions so late in games it isn't always starters v starters.  I will take NWSL v Female Liga MX right now.  Our women have a better soccer culture.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> More than when they had a real league game a couple days later.  I am not saying it was not serious but when it comes to exhibition v league their may be context.  Sub rules change in exhibitions so late in games it isn't always starters v starters.  I will take NWSL v Female Liga MX right now.  Our women have a better soccer culture.


Had a better soccer culture.  Keep looking back as you get passed. Those same factors apply to Liga MX teams too-excuses are like assholes, they all stink coach!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Had a better soccer culture.  Keep looking back as you get passed. Those same factors apply to Liga MX teams too-excuses are like assholes, they all stink coach!


Let's talk when they have  National Team players not from the US.  By the way a women's college team will beat the Mexican Womens National Team.  Just saying.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Let's talk when they have  National Team players not from the US.  By the way a women's college team will beat the Mexican Womens National Team.  Just saying.


All very true.  Things have changed-Mexico has a system now.  I love how people brag about how the USWNT beats teams with no backing.  I would like to see the US be successful.  However, I don’t feel confident after evaluating club soccer and college soccer because of low standards.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> All very true.  Things have changed-Mexico has a system now.  I love how people brag about how the USWNT beats teams with no backing.  I would like to see the US be successful.  However, I don’t feel confident after evaluating club soccer and college soccer because of low standards.


You keep saying that and Mexico women keep calling in Jennifer, Bri, Amanda, Kimberly and Monica.  Interesting wonder where they grew up playing.  
Was that the Astros bench I heard banging the garbage can Kershaw?  (Just joking)


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You keep saying that and Mexico women keep calling in Jennifer, Bri, Amanda, Kimberly and Monica.  Interesting wonder where they grew up playing.
> Was that the Astros bench I heard banging the garbage can Kershaw?  (Just joking)


You keep looking behind.  Be careful.  Don’t trip!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> All very true.  Things have changed-Mexico has a system now.  I love how people brag about how the USWNT beats teams with no backing.  I would like to see the US be successful.  However, I don’t feel confident after evaluating club soccer and college soccer because of low standards.


I think it is fun bantering with you here but I think you completely lack perspective.  The perspective that comes with what many of here have with much older kids that have played a lot longer.  I look forward to talking with you in 5 years (if I bother coming back to this forum) and I truly mean it when I say I hope all of your daughters soccer dreams come true.


----------



## Kicknit22

Holy crap!  It just hit me.  Ellejustus and MacDre are the same guy.  Damn!   Nice one dude!  19 pages of this show.  You had me going, brudda!  Thanks for the entertainment. Almost Platinum for both Avatar too!! Impressive.


----------



## ToonArmy

3 girls from my home city on Mexico u20s current roster all currently play D1 2 Slammers 1 west coast


----------



## vegasguy

Simisoccerfan said:


> I think it is fun bantering with you here but I think you completely lack perspective.  The perspective that comes with what many of here have with much older kids that have played a lot longer.  I look forward to talking with you in 5 years (if I bother coming back to this forum) and I truly mean it when I say I hope all of your daughters soccer dreams come true.


Absolutely.  Many of us have players that are decent and have played at high levels with success and failure.  We are all proud and have enjoyed the journey.  Sit back, watch and enjoy.  They are only kids once.  Analytical mathematics doesn'thave to happen at 18.  Pro career can wait past 18.  Enjoy the ride it does not last forever.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Absolutely.  Many of us have players that are decent and have played at high levels with success and failure.  We are all proud and have enjoyed the journey.  Sit back, watch and enjoy.  They are only kids once.  Analytical mathematics doesn'thave to happen at 18.  Pro career can wait past 18.  Enjoy the ride it does not last forever.


Academically, I’ve slowed her down by learning things in Spanish and working on conversational French.  I don’t want to slow it down to much and turn her into a under achiever like her old man. I’m not pushing her academically.  She can cruise and finish University by 18. 
She loves soccer.  Analytics makes rigorous coursework more palatable because she looks at it as academic soccer.  Kinda like watching film to give her a more nuanced understanding of the game.
I’m happy as long as she’s happy.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I think it is fun bantering with you here but I think you completely lack perspective.  The perspective that comes with what many of here have with much older kids that have played a lot longer.  I look forward to talking with you in 5 years (if I bother coming back to this forum) and I truly mean it when I say I hope all of your daughters soccer dreams come true.


I respect your input.  I have seen my kid at practice with Renae Cuellar and Lucero Quevas and she looks like she belongs.  I guess it’s possible everything will go to shit in 5 years-is this your experience?


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> Holy crap!  It just hit me.  Ellejustus and MacDre are the same guy.  Damn!   Nice one dude!  19 pages of this show.  You had me going, brudda!  Thanks for the entertainment. Almost Platinum for both Avatar too!! Impressive.


You think?  "Me and Macdre" go way back.  I told you about my friend Carl.   Macdre is my alter, alter super, ego brudda.  Actually, he's my twin bro and were living the dream through our kids.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> I respect your input.  I have seen my kid at practice with Renae Cuellar and Lucero Quevas and she looks like she belongs.  I guess it’s possible everything will go to shit in 5 years-is this your experience?


 No everything will likely not go to shit but things do change.   Also she may look good in some drills but only time will tell if she belongs when she gets old enough to belong. You should have a better read by age 17.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> All very true.  Things have changed-Mexico has a system now.  I love how people brag about how the USWNT beats teams with no backing.  I would like to see the US be successful.  However, I don’t feel confident after evaluating club soccer and college soccer because of low standards.


I don't feel confident saying Mexico is good at anything other than corruption and food.


----------



## Frank

U Portland (D1) announced today they expect to have students on campus in the fall. They will announce how later. Obviously sports will follow whatever the conference decides.


----------



## Ellejustus

Frank said:


> U Portland (D1) announced today they expect to have students on campus in the fall. They will announce how later. Obviously sports will follow whatever the conference decides.


Sports will be played this fall and life will get going again.


----------



## Ellejustus

*Big Merger News!!!*

Scooby Doo Sports, Inc ((sds)) has partnered with the great MacDre.  "Bringing MacDre into the Scooby Doo Sports family will take our organization to the next level." Fred-  Mr MacDre has been helping the youth in country club tennis but has been expanding to soccer and is ready to reveal his secret training methods to help young girls go Pro!


----------



## vegasguy

And when he can not answer a direct question it gets refuted he does the political thing and ignores and moves on.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> And when he can not answer a direct question it gets refuted he does the political thing and ignores and moves on.


I think were both just pointing out the obvious coach


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> And when he can not answer a direct question it gets refuted he does the political thing and ignores and moves on.


Good morning coach.  I can sell ice to a Eskimo.  Water to a whale.  I can even talk a cat off the back of a fish truck.  What is it that you falsely claim that a Macateer such as myself can’t answer?  Coach, do you have a fever?


----------



## Ellejustus

Also, the one chart you brought up had one big issue for me that I would like to discuss with you today.  Is that possible coach?


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> Holy crap!  It just hit me.  Ellejustus and MacDre are the same guy.  Damn!   Nice one dude!  19 pages of this show.  You had me going, brudda!  Thanks for the entertainment. Almost Platinum for both Avatar too!! Impressive.


Hey bro, I'm good at playing "Me and MacDre."  I learned the hood by going down to South Central to see MacDre every week when we were little guys.  I would go down from Laguna and have plays dates at the park with him and his friends all the time.  In fact, I found a pic of my mom helping out one of MacDres cousins.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Good morning coach.  I can sell ice to a Eskimo.  Water to a whale.  I can even talk a cat off the back of a fish truck.  What is it that you falsely claim that a Macateer such as myself can’t answer?  Coach, do you have a fever?


I send you a list of US Born Women on the Mex NT Roster this year.  And you respond with "don't trip when you are looking back".  This is an answer non answer.  The point is these women who I am sure are excellent soccer players can not make the US Roster but you say Mex is passing us.  Where is your proof outside of an exhibition game.  Hell an MLS team can beat a Prem team in Exhibition.  Additionally, I will take UCLA 9 out of 10 games over the current MEX WNT.    I give you absolutes when discussing citizenship with Dest, Green, Jones etc and ask how you pass the FIFA test.  You make a simple statement of I have a British passport which we know does not pass the FIFA test.  So have you compared your assumptions including France to the FIFA guidelines? 

I like the conversation and this is not bashing thing by any means.  I also hope your daughter is successful.  But when asked a question or refuted in your argument, you tac like you are in America's Cup and change the topic.  

So how does your passport allow your daughter to be a British Citizen?  ( I get their current keeper played for and was trained by Pats in socal)
How has Mex NT passed US or is passing US knowing they still come to America for starters?  (yes we go to Germany on the mens side so seems similar)

This is all cooped up banter and means nothing in the real world and as parents we have strong opinions and beliefs but you bash a system I coach and have a player in with no real reason to do so.  I am just asking for proof more than conjecture.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Also, the one chart you brought up had one big issue for me that I would like to discuss with you today.  Is that possible coach?


what chart?


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> what chart?


The GDA Pathway chart.  What age do you coach girls soccer?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> The GDA Pathway chart.  What age do you coach girls soccer?


That was VegasParent..   good dude but different than me. 

I coached this season U12girls and U16girls.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> I send you a list of US Born Women on the Mex NT Roster this year.  And you respond with "don't trip when you are looking back".  This is an answer non answer.  The point is these women who I am sure are excellent soccer players can not make the US Roster but you say Mex is passing us.  Where is your proof outside of an exhibition game.  Hell an MLS team can beat a Prem team in Exhibition.  Additionally, I will take UCLA 9 out of 10 games over the current MEX WNT.    I give you absolutes when discussing citizenship with Dest, Green, Jones etc and ask how you pass the FIFA test.  You make a simple statement of I have a British passport which we know does not pass the FIFA test.  So have you compared your assumptions including France to the FIFA guidelines?
> 
> I like the conversation and this is not bashing thing by any means.  I also hope your daughter is successful.  But when asked a question or refuted in your argument, you tac like you are in America's Cup and change the topic.
> 
> So how does your passport allow your daughter to be a British Citizen?  ( I get their current keeper played for and was trained by Pats in socal)
> How has Mex NT passed US or is passing US knowing they still come to America for starters?  (yes we go to Germany on the mens side so seems similar)
> 
> This is all cooped up banter and means nothing in the real world and as parents we have strong opinions and beliefs but you bash a system I coach and have a player in with no real reason to do so.  I am just asking for proof more than conjecture.


When I was born, the Bahamas was part of the UK.  I was born under the old CUKC status.  When the Bahamas became independent, I opted to convert my CUKC status to British citizenship and permanent resident belonger status in the Bahamas.  I am British Otherwise than by descent (which is the best) I am also a registered commoner on commonage land that British  royalty often vacation.  I don’t understand why you don’t get that my kid is just as British as she is American.  She was entitled to citizenship at birth for both the UK and US.  My kid IS (already has passport) British otherwise than by descent.

I agree with your analysis about Mexican soccer.  However, you refuse to acknowledge change has taken place.  Mexico and the UK been very sexist and didn’t support women playing soccer in the past.  Now, that these girls are in professional environments things are changing.  Most on the forum agree that men’s football in Europe and Mexico is superior to the MLS.  Even the commissioner of the MLS thinks Liga MX is better.

So if Mexican girls are now training in an environment that the MLS commissioner openly admits is better than the highest level of soccer in the US-why can’t you forsee substantial improvement on the Mexican side and the need to adjust or get left behind?


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> That was VegasParent..   good dude but different than me.
> 
> I coached this season U12girls and U16girls.


Did you coach GDA?  Sorry, I'm so confused with Vegas but I love Vegas?


----------



## outside!

What exactly does any of this have to do with the threat to D1 college soccer?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> When I was born, the Bahamas was part of the UK.  I was born under the old CUKC status.  When the Bahamas became independent, I opted to convert my CUKC status to British citizenship and permanent resident belonger status in the Bahamas.  I am British Otherwise than by descent (which is the best) I am also a registered commoner on commonage land that British  royalty often vacation.  I don’t understand why you don’t get that my kid is just as British as she is American.  She was entitled to citizenship at birth for both the UK and US.  My kid IS (already has passport) British otherwise than by descent.
> 
> I agree with your analysis about Mexican soccer.  However, you refuse to acknowledge change has taken place.  Mexico and the UK been very sexist and didn’t support women playing soccer in the past.  Now, that these girls are in professional environments things are changing.  Most on the forum agree that men’s football in Europe and Mexico is superior to the MLS.  Even the commissioner of the MLS thinks Liga MX is better.
> 
> So if Mexican girls are now training in an environment that the MLS commissioner openly admits is better than the highest level of soccer in the US-why can’t you forsee substantial improvement on the Mexican side and the need to adjust or get left behind?



You still have not answered the question about England and France.  Have you put it to the FIFA test?  I am not saying it isn't true and even admitted I may have misread the rules of FIFA when doing my research years ago.  

When Garber speaks of LigaMX he speaks of the men's side.  Garber is the MLS commissioner and that is his focus.  How do you not see that.  Please show me an article where he says Mex Womens league is superior.  By the way he will also say the US Men's league is catching up to the LigaMX.    Mexican training for women is not superior to US.  Just four years ago they did not allow American women with Mexican decent into their league.  And with the number of US born women in their Nat Team pool obviously shows they understand out players are better.   Also, do you refute that UCLA would beat MEX WNT? 

You have your opinion and I have mine. I am good with that.   I think long term will show US WNT will always be a top always put women on National Teams throughout the world.  Which makes me wonder why do all these countries send their players to US Colleges to play soccer? 

You seem to take this as I have said before as contentious and I am just showing facts to support my viewpoint.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Did you coach GDA?  Sorry, I'm so confused with Vegas but I love Vegas?


I am an ECRL coach.


----------



## Ellejustus

outside! said:


> What exactly does any of this have to do with the threat to D1 college soccer?


Is the Pathway to the pros through college?  When should a "goat" decide to declare oneself for the draft?  Interesting topics.  Should the top 2% skip college all together and be put in a special academy for only the top 10%? Should we have another top league for only the top 10%?  Should we have a pathway to the pros like Spain, France, Mexico and all the other smart countries that will soon pass us all up if the pathway to the top is through college only and you better have a 4.0 and higher and never make a mistake as teenager or choose HS Soccer over G D Assholes league.  College should be an option, just like playing HS Soccer should be and if one thinks they can climb the mountain, let's find a way to make that happen instead of making fun of a few girls with a dream.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> What exactly does any of this have to do with the threat to D1 college soccer?


I made the assertion earlier that college soccer should go away...this is an evolution of the argument and very relevant.  Would you like to opine as to why club sports are inadequate for a demographic that doesn’t want to go pro and wants to focus on academics?


----------



## vegasguy

outside! said:


> What exactly does any of this have to do with the threat to D1 college soccer?


absolutely nothing just another rabbit hole.  There is only so much we can talk about in regards to D1 .  We all hope schools open up in the fall and our beloved sport is supported by NCAA and the Universities within.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> I am an ECRL coach.


OK.  I like the ECNL u16 coach too.  He has passion and cares.


----------



## dad4

With respect to the threats to D1 soccer,

What are the options for D1 schools that aren’t in a big money conference?   

D2 is an option.  Those programs tend to cost 4M per year instead of 100M.  

Can always stay D1, keep existing sports, and start cutting expenses.  Keep travel local, shelve any plans for new facilities, let your 2M per year football coach leave and hire someone at a reasonable salary.   Not sure how much that buys you.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I made the assertion earlier that college soccer should go away...this is an evolution of the argument and very relevant.  Would you like to opine as to why club sports are inadequate for a demographic that doesn’t want to go pro and wants to focus on academics?


You say this because you do not like the US System and a majority of us believe in college soccer as a varsity sport not a club sport not supported by the university.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You still have not answered the question about England and France.  Have you put it to the FIFA test?  I am not saying it isn't true and even admitted I may have misread the rules of FIFA when doing my research years ago.
> 
> When Garber speaks of LigaMX he speaks of the men's side.  Garber is the MLS commissioner and that is his focus.  How do you not see that.  Please show me an article where he says Mex Womens league is superior.  By the way he will also say the US Men's league is catching up to the LigaMX.    Mexican training for women is not superior to US.  Just four years ago they did not allow American women with Mexican decent into their league.  And with the number of US born women in their Nat Team pool obviously shows they understand out players are better.   Also, do you refute that UCLA would beat MEX WNT?
> 
> You have your opinion and I have mine. I am good with that.   I think long term will show US WNT will always be a top always put women on National Teams throughout the world.  Which makes me wonder why do all these countries send their players to US Colleges to play soccer?
> 
> You seem to take this as I have said before as contentious and I am just showing facts to support my viewpoint.


I don’t see this as contentious but I think you are being closed minded, defensive, and ethnocentric.  I don’t think you can acknowledge that Mexico is doing something better than the US.
Mexican girls have access to the same coaches and facilities as the men.  They oftentimes share practice fields.  The Mexican women have a training environment superior to the men because the girls have all the same coaches, facilities, and the girls can play the boys teams for comp whereas the men don’t have as much good comp readily available.

Again, I have not researched France because it’s my wife’s family.  But, I’m as British as they come.  I think this is an Immigration issue not a FIFA issue.  I believe my kid can play for any country she holds valid citizenship.  So, my kid can play for England or Scotland because she is a British citizen.  My kid has never lived in the UK however she is a descendant of the first English and Scottish settlers.  Since she has never lived in the UK, she can play for the nations of her grandparents.
I’ve never seen UCLA play.  My assessment comes from the difficulty I’ve encountered finding a group of kids with a skillset that could play with my kid.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> With respect to the threats to D1 soccer,
> 
> What are the options for D1 schools that aren’t in a big money conference?
> 
> D2 is an option.  Those programs tend to cost 4M per year instead of 100M.
> 
> Can always stay D1, keep existing sports, and start cutting expenses.  Keep travel local, shelve any plans for new facilities, let your 2M per year football coach leave and hire someone at a reasonable salary.   Not sure how much that buys you.


I think small private D1 colleges have way more flexibility and stand to gain in the new way.  It's a great way to grow the sport through private funding and not tax dollars and it allows the girls to play past HS and club.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You say this because you do not like the US System and a majority of us believe in college soccer as a varsity sport not a club sport not supported by the university.


Fair and true because I want it to improve.  I think part of my reason my kid made the Xolo’s team is because they love having a gringo around to make fun of.  The jokes hurt but all I can say in response is pass me another beer to numb the pain.  Coach, please help a brotha out and commit to doing better.

As to college sports, I know several pro athletes who all think that college sports suck.  Many think playing sports deters kids from taking rigorous courses.  Many think it’s unnecessarily difficult to manage school and sports.  Accordingly, academics and club sports should be the focus for a more enjoyable college experience and higher probability of success because of higher grades in more rigorous courses.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I made the assertion earlier that college soccer should go away...this is an evolution of the argument and very relevant.  Would you like to opine as to why club sports are inadequate for a demographic that doesn’t want to go pro and wants to focus on academics?


To some extent, students like going to the games.  And, like most people, they like the games to be high quality games.


MacDre said:


> I don’t see this as contentious but I think you are being closed minded, defensive, and ethnocentric.  I don’t think you can acknowledge that Mexico is doing something better than the US.
> Mexican girls have access to the same coaches and facilities as the men.  They oftentimes share practice fields.  The Mexican women have a training environment superior to the men because the girls have all the same coaches, facilities, and the girls can play the boys teams for comp whereas the men don’t have as much good comp readily available.
> 
> Again, I have not researched France because it’s my wife’s family.  But, I’m as British as they come.  I think this is an Immigration issue not a FIFA issue.  I believe my kid can play for any country she holds valid citizenship.  So, my kid can play for England or Scotland because she is a British citizen.  My kid has never lived in the UK however she is a descendant of the first English and Scottish settlers.  Since she has never lived in the UK, she can play for the nations of her grandparents.
> I’ve never seen UCLA play.  My assessment comes from the difficulty I’ve encountered finding a group of kids with a skillset that could play with my kid.


Has she tried out with one of the top local clubs?  When it opens up, give Mustang a call.  

The Mexico discussion is silly.  If our national teams played their national teams, each country would win one game.  There’s a reason Macario came to the US and there’s a reason Pulisic left the US.


----------



## jpeter

dad4 said:


> With respect to the threats to D1 soccer,
> 
> What are the options for D1 schools that aren’t in a big money conference?
> 
> D2 is an option.  Those programs tend to cost 4M per year instead of 100M.
> 
> Can always stay D1, keep existing sports, and start cutting expenses.  Keep travel local, shelve any plans for new facilities, let your 2M per year football coach leave and hire someone at a reasonable salary.   Not sure how much that buys you.


Good points, there are some universities where D2 soccer is very good with foreign and other athletes that maybe didn't have the grades or $$ but have the ability to play D1.  Seen some D2's from a soccer standpoint  that looked better vs some of the D1's.  

Be that as it may my player is not interested in D2 from a soccer point of view, would rather concentrate on academics if he was going to attend one of those universities and play soccer in the USL or something along those lines.  

D2 may improve and the competition for spots get even more fierce with all this as the scholarship $$ get tighter which is going to happen one way or the other.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I don’t see this as contentious but I think you are being closed minded, defensive, and ethnocentric.  I don’t think you can acknowledge that Mexico is doing something better than the US.
> Mexican girls have access to the same coaches and facilities as the men.  They oftentimes share practice fields.  The Mexican women have a training environment superior to the men because the girls have all the same coaches, facilities, and the girls can play the boys teams for comp whereas the men don’t have as much good comp readily available.
> 
> Again, I have not researched France because it’s my wife’s family.  But, I’m as British as they come.  I think this is an Immigration issue not a FIFA issue.  I believe my kid can play for any country she holds valid citizenship.  So, my kid can play for England or Scotland because she is a British citizen.  My kid has never lived in the UK however she is a descendant of the first English and Scottish settlers.  Since she has never lived in the UK, she can play for the nations of her grandparents.
> I’ve never seen UCLA play.  My assessment comes from the difficulty I’ve encountered finding a group of kids with a skillset that could play with my kid.



Ok.  I hope she does have that door opened.  I know many parents who have a belief in their child much like yours.  Best of luck.  No harm no foul. 

I can show you players from our country playing on the Mex WNT, England WNT, Jamaican WNT and Nigerian WNT to name a few.  You can not say the reverse with MEX WNT.  So until that occurs I will believe our training are better.  I have seen Mex clubs send their ladies here to play and I have coached against them.  I am not a pro-club and neither were they but the difference was there you can trust me on that.   I have seen Xolos send their youth mens academy her to play in LV Mayors Cup.  You could see where they rank in there system based on the numbers on their back.  They were no where close to Borussia Munchengladbach or for that matter some of the better Vegas boys squads.   Girls play boys all the time in America.  We train with boys too.  UNLV women (not a top WAC team) tied Argentina's world cup team that I think made it out of their pool.  This is the World Cup Mex did not qualify for but Panama a smaller country did.  Now no one knows what the future holds but today there is no backing to state we are not training better women players.  You want to know the most successful and advancing WNT program look at the Netherlands.  The are the next women's soccer superpower in my opinion.

We disagree and you call me ethnocentric.  I say you can not see the forest for the trees because you are in your current situation. You admit you see it as a new person to the sport and their is a bigger picture than just what is going on in TJ which I am sure is great and the right spot for your daughter.  When she is in a stadium on the 18 roster in a pro match, trust me I will be cheering her on.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> With respect to the threats to D1 soccer,
> 
> What are the options for D1 schools that aren’t in a big money conference?
> 
> D2 is an option.  Those programs tend to cost 4M per year instead of 100M.
> 
> Can always stay D1, keep existing sports, and start cutting expenses.  Keep travel local, shelve any plans for new facilities, let your 2M per year football coach leave and hire someone at a reasonable salary.   Not sure how much that buys you.


I don’t understand the love affair with D1 sports.  Most that I know hated the experience because it was akin to working full time while going to school.  They did only because they were gonna eventually make millions.
College soccer players aren’t going to make millions so why not club sports?


----------



## vegasguy

dad4 said:


> To some extent, students like going to the games. And, like most people, they like the games to be high quality games.


College students like to see their school win.  Watch Video of the Blue/Green men's game.  (UCSB v CalPoly)  It is not the best soccer but when 11,000 fans cheering, chanting and throwing tortillas on the field you will get my point.  

Club sports are not supported by the University and therefore lose some luster.  I know  D1's who would not change it for the world and loved their experience and knew they were not going pro.  Yes it was a grind but they feel it was part of their experience.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Ok.  I hope she does have that door opened.  I know many parents who have a belief in their child much like yours.  Best of luck.  No harm no foul.
> 
> I can show you players from our country playing on the Mex WNT, England WNT, Jamaican WNT and Nigerian WNT to name a few.  You can not say the reverse with MEX WNT.  So until that occurs I will believe our training are better.  I have seen Mex clubs send their ladies here to play and I have coached against them.  I am not a pro-club and neither were they but the difference was there you can trust me on that.   I have seen Xolos send their youth mens academy her to play in LV Mayors Cup.  You could see where they rank in there system based on the numbers on their back.  They were no where close to Borussia Munchengladbach or for that matter some of the better Vegas boys squads.   Girls play boys all the time in America.  We train with boys too.  UNLV women (not a top WAC team) tied Argentina's world cup team that I think made it out of their pool.  This is the World Cup Mex did not qualify for but Panama a smaller country did.  Now no one knows what the future holds but today there is no backing to state we are not training better women players.  You want to know the most successful and advancing WNT program look at the Netherlands.  The are the next women's soccer superpower in my opinion.
> 
> We disagree and you call me ethnocentric.  I say you can not see the forest for the trees because you are in your current situation. You admit you see it as a new person to the sport and their is a bigger picture than just what is going on in TJ which I am sure is great and the right spot for your daughter.  When she is in a stadium on the 18 roster in a pro match, trust me I will be cheering her on.


This isn’t about my kid.  This isn’t about your limited personal experience.  I’m saying the future looks bright for the Mexican women’s side because they are now part of the men’s clubs and share resources and facilities.  I think US girls are at a disadvantage until US professional clubs dedicate their money and expertise to the mission-the current system of private clubs is outdated and soon to become obsolete.
All the examples you gave are irrelevant to my point.  You’re stuck in the past and I’m looking to the future.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> Fair and true because I want it to improve.  I think part of my reason my kid made the Xolo’s team is because they love having a gringo around to make fun of.  The jokes hurt but all I can say in response is pass me another beer to numb the pain.  Coach, please help a brotha out and commit to doing better.
> 
> As to college sports, I know several pro athletes who all think that college sports suck.  Many think playing sports deters kids from taking rigorous courses.  Many think it’s unnecessarily difficult to manage school and sports.  Accordingly, academics and club sports should be the focus for a more enjoyable college experience and higher probability of success because of higher grades in more rigorous courses.


@MacDre I think my dd old Surf team scrimmaged a girls team called Xolo's in 2016.  They came up from TJ I believe on a Saturday.  It was a cultural experience for all the families.  Surf u14 vs Xolo u15 team.  We won but they played with ganas and I saw potential back then.  That was about 3 and half years ago.  Great families too


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> This isn’t about my kid.  This isn’t about your limited personal experience.  I’m saying the future looks bright for the Mexican women’s side because they are now part of the men’s clubs and share resources and facilities.  I think US girls are at a disadvantage until US professional clubs dedicate their money and expertise to the mission-the current system of private clubs is outdated and soon to become obsolete.
> All the examples you gave are irrelevant to my point.  You’re stuck in the past and I’m looking to the future.


My examples are real time or as real time as it is going to get.   By the way there are private clubs in Mexico and throughout Europe and Asia.  The private clubs concept is not unique to US that is a myth people use to argue against pay to play.  Now is there faults with pay to play absolutely.  Again then those are the same faults in club hockey, baseball and AAU Basketball. 

What do you consider limited?  Just curious.

The future is speculative.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> To some extent, students like going to the games.  And, like most people, they like the games to be high quality games.
> 
> Has she tried out with one of the top local clubs?  When it opens up, give Mustang a call.
> 
> The Mexico discussion is silly.  If our national teams played their national teams, each country would win one game.  There’s a reason Macario came to the US and there’s a reason Pulisic left the US.


Mustang, Earthquakes, Lamorinda, Santa Rosa, and several Cal camps.  Nice facilities but horrible soccer.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Ok.  I hope she does have that door opened.  I know many parents who have a belief ((kool aid drinkers)) in their child much like yours.  Best of luck.  *No harm no foul.*


Why a harm or a foul in the first place?


----------



## MacDre

Fuck that coach!  College is too expensive and kids should focus on their education and career.  In essence, grow the fuck up and prepare for the real world.  Sounds like entitlement to me coach.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> As to college sports, I know several pro athletes who all think that college sports suck. Many think playing sports deters kids from taking rigorous courses. Many think it’s unnecessarily difficult to manage school and sports. Accordingly, academics and club sports should be the focus for a more enjoyable college experience and higher probability of success because of higher grades in more rigorous courses.


D3 is the option for a rigorous college schedule at a very academic university.  Rules are different there.  I am not sure you realize that.  Look at the Claremont Consortium Schools or the NESCAC conference.   Do you think those student athletes should give up soccer or lacrosse or track or basketball.  College sports are not about becoming a pro.  Football and Basketball make it appear to be.   Why does D1 mean you can not have a rigorous study schedule.  I know civil engineers that played D1 sports.  I trust they know what they are doing when they are designing our roadways and infrastructure.   You speak of D1 sports from a bball and football prospective.  You do not see the track athlete or the swimmer or water polo player.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Why a harm or a foul in the first place?


No bad feelings.. no hurt feelings.. no one is walking away injured.  No Harm No Foul.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> My examples are real time or as real time as it is going to get.   By the way there are private clubs in Mexico and throughout Europe and Asia.  The private clubs concept is not unique to US that is a myth people use to argue against pay to play.  Now is there faults with pay to play absolutely.  Again then those are the same faults in club hockey, baseball and AAU Basketball.
> 
> What do you consider limited?  Just curious.
> 
> The future is speculative.


I don’t think your club can provide the same opportunities as a fully funded program by LAFC for example.  So I think in the future kids will be limited by small clubs that lack resources.  I also think they are limited by mentality.  A kid in an environment wanting to go pro is in a cutthroat environment and that produces a different player than one developed in an environment with a goal of “going to college for the experience.”


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Fuck that coach!  College is too expensive and kids should focus on their education and career.  In essence, grow the fuck up and prepare for the real world.  Sounds like entitlement to me coach.


What sounds like entitlement?  Trust me I am in it.  I know the cost of colleges.  I see it every day.  You say push your kid push your kid.. no days off... I see your side.. Isn't taking a tough college schedule and playing a college sport pushing yourself.  Why limit yourself.  In the real world it is rare that a CEO with honors is different that a CEO without graduating with Honors.  When you start your own company no one asks your college grade point average as a matter of fact they do not do it in corporate world either.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I don’t think your club can provide the same opportunities as a fully funded program by LAFC for example.  So I think in the future kids will be limited by small clubs that lack resources.  I also think they are limited by mentality.  A kid in an environment wanting to go pro is in a cutthroat environment and that produces a different player than one developed in an environment with a goal of “going to college for the experience.”


And what happens in that cutthroat world when it doesn't pan out and their limited education is not good enough because they were focused on sport?  I am not speaking of your child in private school studying three languages because that is not the majority.  I am talking about little Johnny who goes to a club thinking at 15 he is going pro.  He blows his knee out at 17 or 18 and the schooling isn't good enough to get him into University?  what then?  Does the pro-club care about the asset that loses value.  Ask some of those Sunday league amateur soccer player full time bartenders in England.   No sport should be bet and played on building a pro .


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Mustang, Earthquakes, Lamorinda, Santa Rosa, and several Cal camps.  Nice facilities but horrible soccer.


If you are looking for possession and playing it from the back, you can always try MVLA.

Link to a game between MVLA and San Juan.  Olders, so it should let you see what each club tries to focus on.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> I don’t think your club can provide the same opportunities as a fully funded program by LAFC for example.  So I think in the future kids will be limited by small clubs that lack resources.  I also think they are limited by mentality.  A kid in an environment wanting to go pro is in a cutthroat environment and that produces a different player than one developed in an environment with a goal of “going to college for the experience.”


Bingo!!  My dd wanted to go pro at 13 just like I did when i was 13.  I asked her why and she told me.  I then observe her abilities against other top players ((some pro today)) and I see success so i say, "cool, let's see where this goes."  Three top clubs in SoCal all preached that to her and our family and even said that the top 2% of the players will be skipping college in the future.  So when the same Cat in his sweat suit who preached pro, comes back and preaches college the next day, that sucks!!!!  That is all I'm trying to get at.  I'm not being ungrateful either. I didnlt sign my dd up to get scouted by college coaches in 7th and 8th grade coach @vegasguy.  I signed her up to get scouted by the YNT scouts and I was told pro will be looking too.  If you were sold college and then they switched to pro, you would be upset too bro.  I was in the 1% of all the parents.  In fact, people said I was ungrateful that this coach and that coach came and did little drills for our clubs back then.  I was the only one mad and now I know why. No harm and no foul for some, but my dd and I were made to look like fools and when someone deliberately goes out of their way to label us as club hoppers and warnings of being blacklisted by college coaches that I never asked to at my look dd in the first place is not cool with me.


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> I don’t understand the love affair with D1 sports.  Most that I know hated the experience because it was akin to working full time while going to school.  They did only because they were gonna eventually make millions.
> College soccer players aren’t going to make millions so why not club sports?


LOL there's not a single female that ever played DI anything that expected to make millions. Every female that plays a D1 sport does it because she loves the game and maybe because it helped her with college costs and/or get into a school she otherwise might not have gotten into. The path to pro soccer is brighter than it's ever been right now, and still most female "pros" just hope that their parents don't have to subsidize them while they play.


----------



## MacDre

T


vegasguy said:


> What sounds like entitlement?  Trust me I am in it.  I know the cost of colleges.  I see it every day.  You say push your kid push your kid.. no days off... I see your side.. Isn't taking a tough college schedule and playing a college sport pushing yourself.  Why limit yourself.  In the real world it is rare that a CEO with honors is different that a CEO without graduating with Honors.  When you start your own company no one asks your college grade point average as a matter of fact they do not do it in corporate world either.


The point is that we should be encouraging kids to think critically and make good decisions.  So, explain to me how varsity soccer is more beneficial than club?  Club teams can have school spirit.  Is this about young people playing the sport they love or about parents attaining the “D1 trophy?”


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> If you are looking for possession and playing it from the back, you can always try MVLA.
> 
> Link to a game between MVLA and San Juan.  Olders, so it should let you see what each club tries to focus on.


I watched about 7 minutes and I couldn't tell which team was playing "possession".


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> LOL there's not a single female that ever played DI anything that expected to make millions. Every female that plays a D1 sport does it because she loves the game and maybe because it helped her with college costs and/or get into a school she otherwise might not have gotten into. The path to pro soccer is brighter than it's ever been right now, and still most female "pros" just hope that their parents don't have to subsidize them while they play.


Useless facts.  Your point?


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> I watched about 7 minutes and I couldn't tell which team was playing "possession".


Ok.  I didn't pre screen the game for possession.  Maybe I picked a bumblebee game.

 But those are two of the top norcal clubs, so it should help him see what each club aims for.


----------



## Ellejustus




----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> If you are looking for possession and playing it from the back, you can always try MVLA.
> 
> Link to a game between MVLA and San Juan.  Olders, so it should let you see what each club tries to focus on.


Dirty bro.  I will put that Earthquaker 0-7 loss to Blues u17 up here when I get it.  Earthquakes are not good at all.  7-0 to Blues????


----------



## MacDre

MacDre said:


> T
> 
> The point is that we should be encouraging kids to think critically and make good decisions.  So, explain to me how varsity soccer is more beneficial than club?  Club teams can have school spirit.  Is this about young people playing the sport they love or about parents attaining the “D1 trophy?”


Hey coach, I want you to answer me.  I’m feeling myself!


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Bingo!!  My dd wanted to go pro at 13 just like I did when i was 13.  I asked her why and she told me.  I then observe her abilities against other top players ((some pro today)) and I see success so i say, "cool, let's see where this goes."  Three top clubs in SoCal all preached that to her and our family and even said that the top 2% of the players will be skipping college in the future.  So when the same Cat in his sweat suit who preached pro, comes back and preaches college the next day, that sucks!!!!  That is all I'm trying to get at.  I'm not being ungrateful either. I didnlt sign my dd up to get scouted by college coaches in 7th and 8th grade coach @vegasguy.  I signed her up to get scouted by the YNT scouts and I was told pro will be looking too.  If you were sold college and then they switched to pro, you would be upset too bro.  I was in the 1% of all the parents.  In fact, people said I was ungrateful that this coach and that coach came and did little drills for our clubs back then.  I was the only one mad and now I know why. No harm and no foul for some, but my dd and I were made to look like fools and when someone deliberately goes out of their way to label us as club hoppers and warnings of being blacklisted by college coaches that I never asked to at my look dd in the first place is not cool with me.



That is your experience.  You act as though you are the majority.   If you are only signing your daughter up for YNT check your priorities.  There is more to sport than being in the less than 1% .   sport teaches you so much more.  I am sure your daughter will show leadership and perseverance in the future which is more important that any medal hanging in a closet.    But again, my coaching philosophy is different.


----------



## soccer4us

espola said:


> I watched about 7 minutes and I couldn't tell which team was playing "possession".


That's MVLA B team FYI. If they posted the A team, it would be impressive.


----------



## dad4

soccer4us said:


> That's MVLA B team FYI. If they posted the A team, it would be impressive.


Thanks.  I should have paid closer attention.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> That is your experience.  You act as though you are the majority.   If you are only signing your daughter up for YNT check your priorities.  There is more to sport than being in the less than 1% .   sport teaches you so much more.  I am sure your daughter will show leadership and perseverance in the future which is more important that any medal hanging in a closet.    But again, my coaching philosophy is different.


I have some beachfront properties by the swamp for sale if you’re interested.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> That is your experience.  You act as though you are the majority.   If you are only signing your daughter up for YNT check your priorities.  There is more to sport than being in the less than 1% .   sport teaches you so much more.  I am sure your daughter will show leadership and perseverance in the future which is more important that any medal hanging in a closet.    But again, my coaching philosophy is different.


That's BS Coach!!!  If you ever here from my dd, you will know exactly what her goals were in 7th & 8th grade.  Her family was 100% behind her.  What my dd really learned in the life lesson was how some adults lie & cheat and lie some more coach.  Not all either.  Bad behavior brotha and it was all watched by her.  We haven;t played club really for two years bro.  On the sidelines watching all this sh*t unfold and seeing all these girls quit soccer. Yup, we in the 1% and look at what's going on in the world and the world of soccer.  Time for some big changes.  I tried so hard to get out of this sport, you have no idea soccer coach.  Every time I try and walk from all this political crap, she begs me and sheds real tears about her love for this game and wanting more of it.


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> The point is that we should be encouraging kids to think critically and make good decisions.  So, explain to me how varsity soccer is more beneficial than club?  Club teams can have school spirit.  Is this about young people playing the sport they love or about parents attaining the “D1 trophy?”


D1 teams train much harder than club teams. One of the reasons is scholarships. You mention that you know many professional players that hated college sports. Boohoo for them. I hated working 30 hours/week at Burger King but I did it anyway to pay for my schooling and get a degree. College sports sound like much more fun than scrubbing fry racks and tomato slicers at 2:00 AM.

The USA is not like other countries. Over the years college sports have worked as excellent training for professional football, basketball and to some extent baseball players. We have the existing infrastructure of practice fields, stadiums, and other training facilities. College (and high school) soccer can be part of our training system for future professional players and have the added feature of providing an education for players that do not become professional. College sports also provide training for other students beside athletes like sports medicine, physical therapy, sports psychology, event management, etc.

I am happy that your DD is finding an alternate path that works for her, but it will be a long time before the Mexican WNT is anywhere near to the level of play of Stanford's women's team. I agree there are many things that are wrong with NCAA soccer, but that does not mean it is irrelevant or should be discarded.


----------



## Woobie06

Lots of talk about pro women’s soccer for $50k a year top end opportunity in the US?  What do they pay in the Mexican Women’s League and Europe?  Same/Less???  Seems like tripping over dollars to pick up pennies in my book.

Committed, smart, talented young ladies that get very good grades can get into a great school (possibly in part because they are pretty good at soccer), get some scholarship money, grants, and aid to complete the education and come out with $60-75K out of school. Plus add the years of experience the student athlete will be ahead of the pro player chasing the dream...I think in the majority of cases the Women’s College Soccer Student/Athlete comes out on top financially and ahead career wise in the vast majority of cases. That’s one opinion, and I’m sure there are others.

Hopefully that changes and the women pro players will make more, but until the Women’s Pro Game can generate the income with sponsorships, attendance, partnerships, etc. there is going to be a gap until there is a significant paradigm shift in investment and the general public’s taste.  Look at the WNBA...top salary is $215k.  Best women’s league in the world for women’s BBall - 22 years old.

Why play collegiate sports?  Lots of reasons...people have been discussing on here for days.  Makes sense to some, not others.  There is a lot to be learned in life outside the classroom.  Hope everybody and their kids get to where they want to be and enjoy their journey getting there.


----------



## vegasguy

I already have and you chose to ignore it.  You changed the subject.  I have played both college varsity (although not alot) and college club.  College club, you pay for it yourself, you coach yourself or rely on a volunteer coach, you travel drink and have a great time.  No fans and a different level of competition.  You play for fun and teammates even though you use the school name as a conduit to competition.  Whether you agree or not it is different.  College varsity sport, and my experience is not D1, with a coach who is there pushing you in grades and in sport, playing for your school, your community and yes for a trophy while attending class is a blast and I was on the bench.   The feeling is different and not transferable although you think it should be.  I worked harder as a student athlete than I did as a club sport college athlete.  There is also accountability with school sponsored sports.   It is not there with club and you can not force it to be that way.    Also, you have not had the experience of playing as Surf and playing for your high school.  You lose in the finals at Surf you cry a bit, get pissed a bit and go get your In and Out and go home.  You lose a high school state final you see an entire roster of players fall to the ground as if they got shot.    Taking that away in college is wrong.  Tell me why I am wrong in that thought.

Now you did not answer two questions.

What is F ing entitlement? 
What is my limited experience?
and I will add a why do you care about US college soccer if you player is never going to experience it?


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Lots of talk about pro women’s soccer for $50k a year top end opportunity in the US?  What do they pay in the Mexican Women’s League and Europe?  Same/Less???  Seems like tripping over dollars to pick up pennies in my book.
> 
> Committed, smart, talented young ladies that get very good grades can get into a great school (possibly in part because they are pretty good at soccer), get some scholarship money, grants, and aid to complete the education and come out with $60-75K out of school. Plus add the years of experience the student athlete will be ahead of the pro player chasing the dream...I think in the majority of cases the Women’s College Soccer Student/Athlete comes out on top financially and ahead career wise in the vast majority of cases. That’s one opinion, and I’m sure there are others.
> 
> Hopefully that changes and the women pro players will make more, but until the Women’s Pro Game can generate the income with sponsorships, attendance, partnerships, etc. there is going to be a gap until there is a significant paradigm shift in investment and the general public’s taste.  Look at the WNBA...top salary is $215k.  Best women’s league in the world for women’s BBall - 22 years old.
> 
> Why play collegiate sports?  Lots of reasons...people have been discussing on here for days.  Makes sense to some, not others.  There is a lot to be learned in life outside the classroom.  Hope everybody and their kids get to where they want to be and enjoy their journey getting there.


Why not pay the pro $50K a year plus the pros education for four years?  You have to give up playing Rugby ((just a joke)) in college but make $200,000+ and the parents donlt have to folk out $45K to listen to a club soccer coach tell me he knows all the D1 coaches.  I don;t care about that.  Really, why should that matter that some club coach has a connection or relationship with coach?


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> D1 teams train much harder than club teams. One of the reasons is scholarships. You mention that you know many professional players that hated college sports. Boohoo for them. I hated working 30 hours/week at Burger King but I did it anyway to pay for my schooling and get a degree. College sports sound like much more fun than scrubbing fry racks and tomato slicers at 2:00 AM.
> 
> The USA is not like other countries. Over the years college sports have worked as excellent training for professional football, basketball and to some extent baseball players. We have the existing infrastructure of practice fields, stadiums, and other training facilities. College (and high school) soccer can be part of our training system for future professional players and have the added feature of providing an education for players that do not become professional. College sports also provide training for other students beside athletes like sports medicine, physical therapy, sports psychology, event management, etc.
> 
> I am happy that your DD is finding an alternate path that works for her, but it will be a long time before the Mexican WNT is anywhere near to the level of play of Stanford's women's team. I agree there are many things that are wrong with NCAA soccer, but that does not mean it is irrelevant or should be discarded.


D1 training being harder is one of the reasons those that want to focus on academics should play club sports so they have more time to study!

You are a prime example of the problem.  How can you be so certain of your conclusion?  Have you been on the ground in Mexico and observed?  Why are y’all killing the messenger for reporting back what I’m seeing?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> D1 training being harder is one of the reasons those that want to focus on academics should play club sports so they have more time to study!
> 
> You are a prime example of the problem.  How can you be so certain of your conclusion?  Have you been on the ground in Mexico and observed?  Why are y’all killing the messenger for reporting back what I’m seeing?


Your first comment is specifically why the D3 rules are in place.   They are different than D1 & D2.  NAIA has a different set of rules. 

Why do you think college sport exists?   More specifically, why do you think college "Olympic" sports exist?


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> Lots of talk about pro women’s soccer for $50k a year top end opportunity in the US?  What do they pay in the Mexican Women’s League and Europe?  Same/Less???  Seems like tripping over dollars to pick up pennies in my book.
> 
> Committed, smart, talented young ladies that get very good grades can get into a great school (possibly in part because they are pretty good at soccer), get some scholarship money, grants, and aid to complete the education and come out with $60-75K out of school. Plus add the years of experience the student athlete will be ahead of the pro player chasing the dream...I think in the majority of cases the Women’s College Soccer Student/Athlete comes out on top financially and ahead career wise in the vast majority of cases. That’s one opinion, and I’m sure there are others.
> 
> Hopefully that changes and the women pro players will make more, but until the Women’s Pro Game can generate the income with sponsorships, attendance, partnerships, etc. there is going to be a gap until there is a significant paradigm shift in investment and the general public’s taste.  Look at the WNBA...top salary is $215k.  Best women’s league in the world for women’s BBall - 22 years old.
> 
> Why play collegiate sports?  Lots of reasons...people have been discussing on here for days.  Makes sense to some, not others.  There is a lot to be learned in life outside the classroom.  Hope everybody and their kids get to where they want to be and enjoy their journey getting there.


You miss the point.  By time my kid is 16, she gonna have to fish or cut bait with soccer.  She will also finish University by 18 by working smarter not harder.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> You miss the point.  By time my kid is 16, she gonna have to fish or cut bait with soccer.  She will also finish University by 18 by working smarter not harder.


See you said it... cut bait with soccer... to you, it is an objective.  To her, it is a passion.   
If you are not good enough quit.  Good message. 
Why not encourage her to play.  Maybe she goes to Georgetown, Howard, or American U and plays.  She makes connections in DC and becomes a vehicle for true change?  
I will be blessed if I get to see my son play four more years of soccer starting in 2021.  I don't care what level.  I will sit there smile and enjoy.


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> Why not pay the pro $50K a year plus the pros education for four years?  You have to give up playing Rugby ((just a joke)) in college but make $200,000+ and the parents donlt have to folk out $45K to listen to a club soccer coach tell me he knows all the D1 coaches.  I don;t care about that.  Really, why should that matter that some club coach has a connection or relationship with coach?


Why would the Women’s Pro Team pay the additional $200k for college...they can’t afford  to players $250k. 

Life is not fair, people cheat, steal, lie, play favorites, are charitable, do great things, love, are principled, and some are mean.  It’s people.  They suck sometimes. Life is a-lot like a game, figure out the rules, and play by them.  I’m not saying it is right, I’m just saying it is like that sometimes.

The pay to play model is what is today, and what it will be tomorrow.  As long as adults can make money from it, it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.  You can like it, not like it, think it is unfair, that you have been screwed, and that it sucks...all the feelings of unjust and what should be will not change it.  As long as the customer is buying the product the seller will have it on the shelf.  I never said it was good product, but people are still buying and fighting each other in the aisles for it...like TP in a pandemic.

I know a few guys who bypassed the NFL Draft...played at ND and one at Texas 5-7th round projections.  Decided on starting a “real” career due to the cost benefit.  Leveraged their University’s Network and are doing exceptionally well.  You hear about the top pro players in sport making all the money, there is story after story after story of players going pro, wasting the opportunity to get an education when they had it, blowing their money and being broke...what a waste.  Guys making over $100mm playing pro ball and broke.  In a lot of cases to me it looks like a fools errand.

This is my favorite story of a collegiate athlete and what can be done with the opportunity -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle#College_career


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> You miss the point.  By time my kid is 16, she gonna have to fish or cut bait with soccer.  She will also finish University by 18 by working smarter not harder.


My son took so many AP classes in HS he will be a JR next year at SDSU. He said if he did a few extra classes back in HS and not played videos most of time, he could be SR in college at 19 next year.  Lot's of ways to save a buck too.  He'a all about working hard and saving and not wasting money.  Me on the other hand, I have spent so much on soccer I'm pissed at myself, I think if I;m being honest.  My son told me to get over it and learn from it.  I told him learn how to shoot better so he doesn;t lose to me in nerf hoops horse game.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Why would the Women’s Pro Team pay the additional $200k for college...they can’t afford  to players $250k.
> 
> Life is not fair, people cheat, steal, lie, play favorites, are charitable, do great things, love, are principled, and some are mean.  It’s people.  They suck sometimes. Life is a-lot like a game, figure out the rules, and play by them.  I’m not saying it is right, I’m just saying it is like that sometimes.
> 
> The pay to play model is what is today, and what it will be tomorrow.  As long as adults can make money from it, it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.  You can like it, not like it, think it is unfair, that you have been screwed, and that it sucks...all the feelings of unjust and what should be will not change it.  As long as the customer is buying the product the seller will have it on the shelf.  I never said it was good product, but people are still buying and fighting each other in the aisles for it...like TP in a pandemic.
> 
> I know a few guys who bypassed the NFL Draft...played at ND and one at Texas 5-7th round projections.  Decided on starting a “real” career due to the cost benefit.  Leveraged their University’s Network and are doing exceptionally well.  You hear about the top pro players in sport making all the money, there is story after story after story of players going pro, wasting the opportunity to get an education when they had it, blowing their money and being broke...what a waste.  Guys making over $100mm playing pro ball and broke.  In a lot of cases to me it looks like a
> 
> This is my favorite story of a collegiate athlete and what can be done with the opportunity -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle#College_career


Private funding dude and sponsorship.  Life is changing and pay per play model in life is going to be weakened, but not destroyed Woobie.  That was the old way to play. Now, lying and cheating will be last and being honest and hard working will be first.  Give it some time sir.  Plus, I just made up the $50K  because you did.  Were talking 1 or 2 % only so why the big debate?  The rest can play pay to play like you said will be here tomorrow. didn;t play that game the last three years and now I'm being rewarded I guess for staying true to the truth as much as possible.  Lady luck is coming around to others now.  it's cool to watch!!


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> You miss the point.  By time my kid is 16, she gonna have to fish or cut bait with soccer.  She will also finish University by 18 by working smarter not harder.


I’m not missing the point. The point for you is different than the point for me. Your point is not the target our family is aiming for. That’s why I said earlier, you and I are in different lanes. It would be great if my kid could be done with University at 18. She will be done at 22. Different kid, different journey, which is  ok. Your family has a lot of options which is a great place to be. I sincerely hope you guys get the to the destination you are aiming for.


----------



## dad4

soccer4us said:


> That's MVLA B team FYI. If they posted the A team, it would be impressive.


Gotta fix the earlier error.  That game was MVLA B versus San Juan A.


----------



## vegasguy

Woobie06 said:


> I’m not missing the point. The point for you is different than the point for me. Your point is not the target our family is aiming for. That’s why I said earlier, you and I are in different lanes. It would be great if my kid could be done with University at 18. She will be done at 22. Different kid, different journey, which is  ok. Your family has a lot of options which is a great place to be. I sincerely hope you guys get the to the destination you are aiming for.




Slacker... done at 22... I pushed myself and finished at 23.. do you know how many more college classes I got to take in the 6yr plan.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> I’m not missing the point. The point for you is different than the point for me. Your point is not the target our family is aiming for. That’s why I said earlier, you and I are in different lanes. It would be great if my kid could be done with University at 18. She will be done at 22. Different kid, different journey, which is  ok. Your family has a lot of options which is a great place to be. I sincerely hope you guys get the to the destination you are aiming for.


The problem is you guys have hogged all the lanes in soccer.  It's tied to things and that is no bueno to be #1.  I'm still fishing and waiting for that Big Fish story I dreamed about.  I love that I can cut the bait anytime I want.  My dd can go to any college she wants to without playing soccer.  Were talking about pro soccer for the girls and college getting in the way for 1 or 2 out of 100 players.  Its killing the sport for the best all because they want the whole freeway for themselves.  it's so obvious.  I see your point too


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> Private funding dude and sponsorship.  Life is changing and pay per play model in life is going to be weakened, but not destroyed Woobie.  That was the old way to play. Now, lying and cheating will be last and being honest and hard working will be first.  Give it some time sir.  Plus, I just made up the $50K  because you did.  Were talking 1 or 2 % only so why the big debate?  The rest can play pay to play like you said will be here tomorrow. didn;t play that game the last three years and now I'm being rewarded I guess for staying true to the truth as much as possible.  Lady luck is coming around to others now.  it's cool to watch!!


Like you said Private Funding....Parent Funding, Sponsorship, Scholarship, Partnership....Somebody always pays. Coaches, facilities, trainers, Physio, equipment, insurance, etc..all costs money. Somebody or some entity has to cover the costs. This is an undisputed fact. $$$ will be exchanged.

Do I think the costs of youth soccer are ridiculous.  Of course I do.  Do I think what we have today is the best model, no.  Would I like it to be better, absolutely.  Are there barriers to entry, yes.  Do some deserving kids get passed over, without a doubt.

I’m not a proponent of the current model or the dynamic in youth soccer today.  I have zero control over it.  I could vote with my pocketbook, and not have my daughter play.  Problem is she likes playing, likes her team, and her teammates.  We figure out a way and make it work like most.  I don’t know what else to tell you.


----------



## Woobie06

vegasguy said:


> Slacker... done at 22... I pushed myself and finished at 23.. do you know how many more college classes I got to take in the 6yr plan.


22 is the goal...we will see what happens.  Long way to go from where we are today.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Like you said Private Funding....Parent Funding, Sponsorship, Scholarship, Partnership....Somebody always pays. Coaches, facilities, trainers, Physio, equipment, insurance, etc..all costs money. Somebody or some entity has to cover the costs. This is an undisputed fact. $$$ will be exchanged.
> 
> Do I think the costs of youth soccer are ridiculous.  Of course I do.  Do I think what we have today is the best model, no.  Would I like it to be better, absolutely.  Are there barriers to entry, yes.  Do some deserving kids get passed over, without a doubt.
> 
> I’m not a proponent of the current model or the dynamic in youth soccer today.  *I have zero control over it.*  I could vote with my pocketbook, and not have my daughter play.  Problem is she likes playing, likes her team, and her teammates.  We figure out a way and make it work like most.  I don’t know what else to tell you.


You have control sir and we need people like you to make it better for the 2% and the 98% wanting college.  I swear I dont think my kid today is 2% of the top cream.  However, she has the ingredients I believe.  The past system was full of politics, pay as you can, and I see former big time D1 coaches laughing at how the other coach picked wrong.  What is not funny and leads to depression and other health issues, is the girl that their laughing about.  I don;t like that and that needs to stop now!!!


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> I already have and you chose to ignore it.  You changed the subject.  I have played both college varsity (although not alot) and college club.  College club, you pay for it yourself, you coach yourself or rely on a volunteer coach, you travel drink and have a great time.  No fans and a different level of competition.  You play for fun and teammates even though you use the school name as a conduit to competition.  Whether you agree or not it is different.  College varsity sport, and my experience is not D1, with a coach who is there pushing you in grades and in sport, playing for your school, your community and yes for a trophy while attending class is a blast and I was on the bench.   The feeling is different and not transferable although you think it should be.  I worked harder as a student athlete than I did as a club sport college athlete.  There is also accountability with school sponsored sports.   It is not there with club and you can not force it to be that way.    Also, you have not had the experience of playing as Surf and playing for your high school.  You lose in the finals at Surf you cry a bit, get pissed a bit and go get your In and Out and go home.  You lose a high school state final you see an entire roster of players fall to the ground as if they got shot.    Taking that away in college is wrong.  Tell me why I am wrong in that thought.
> 
> Now you did not answer two questions.
> 
> What is F ing entitlement?
> What is my limited experience?
> and I will add a why do you care about US college soccer if you player is never going to experience it?


You are NOT wrong in your analysis.  However, you did not answer my question.  I don’t care about the difference in the two, I want you to tell me why you think varsity sports are better for a person with no professional aspirations?  Why does someone that wants to focus on academics need a professional coach?  Do you think clubs sports give young people more time for studies than varsity sports?

It’s entitlement to think a student should be able to play varsity sports for experience instead of focusing on studies and future career while playing club due to love of the game.

Everyone’s experience is limited; this is why being open and listening is a very important skill.

I care because I think there is some serious de facto segregation going on within US soccer.  I see a lot of people being excluded from mainstream US soccer for fabricated BS reasons.  I think a system that excludes the poor from the outset and gives admissions preferences to a bunch of upper middle class kids that don’t want to go pro and only want the “experience” is unethical.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I don’t understand the love affair with D1 sports.  Most that I know hated the experience because it was akin to working full time while going to school.  They did only because they were gonna eventually make millions.
> College soccer players aren’t going to make millions so why not club sports?


Many kids work full time when going to school.  They have class, they have work, then they have homework.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> See you said it... cut bait with soccer... to you, it is an objective.  To her, it is a passion.
> If you are not good enough quit.  Good message.
> Why not encourage her to play.  Maybe she goes to Georgetown, Howard, or American U and plays.  She makes connections in DC and becomes a vehicle for true change?
> I will be blessed if I get to see my son play four more years of soccer starting in 2021.  I don't care what level.  I will sit there smile and enjoy.


No more like sweetie you don’t have what it takes to play at the highest level but I love you.  Focus on your studies and continue playing for fun.  Win some lose some is the lesson and if it doesn’t kill you it’ll make you stronger.  In the real world everyone doesn’t get a trophy.
Coach, your entitlement is coming out. After 16, if we know a kid can’t make it, why continue the lie?  What’s with this everybody’s a winner and everybody gets a trophy?  Fuck that...play club and study hard!


----------



## warrior49

This is an interesting topic. My DD is sitting here amused by reading this stuff with me. Minority, college junior, plays in the Pac12 and loves every minute of it. From picking her classes first to the many, many benefits of being a student-athlete, she would do it again in a second. We are not upper middle class and had it not been for her soccer scholarship she would have done the community college route then transfer to get her degree. College soccer has given her far more opportunities than she ever would have had (says her). Is it a grind at times? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes.


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> The problem is you guys have hogged all the lanes in soccer.  It's tied to things and that is no bueno to be #1.  I'm still fishing and waiting for that Big Fish story I dreamed about.  I love that I can cut the bait anytime I want.  My dd can go to any college she wants to without playing soccer.  Were talking about pro soccer for the girls and college getting in the way for 1 or 2 out of 100 players.  Its killing the sport for the best all because they want the whole freeway for themselves.  it's so obvious.  I see your point too


Couple questions for you, I was hoping you could elaborate on.

1. How is college getting in the way of 1-2 out of 100 players?  
2. Who is “you guys”?
3. Why are there no more lanes?

What’s funny to me about the 1-2 player argument is that it was our families biggest complaint about DA...designing a program with international rules for the super small sub-set of kids who will ever play them representing a country or play professionally.  Seemed upside down to me.

Also, the goal for the vast majority of the consumers (parents) is college.  Not pro.  If I’m building a product, designing a service, trying to build a revenue stream I’m designing it so I can capture as many customers as possible.  I’m designing so what I have works for 98% of the customers (those I am targeting, specialty, niche, etc.) and keeping them happy.  I’m not worried about the 2% I may lose, but will likely try to figure out a way to catch them.

ECNL is selling college.  Look at their marketing/messaging.  They are not selling pro.  Not one youth league in this country is selling pro.  Maybe NWSL should open the draft to all players, not just players exiting college.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

dad4 said:


> Ok.  I didn't pre screen the game for possession.  Maybe I picked a bumblebee game.
> 
> But those are two of the top norcal clubs, so it should help him see what each club aims for.


If that was MVLA's 1st team, that would be depressing.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I want you to tell me why you think varsity sports are better for a person with no professional aspirations? Why does someone that wants to focus on academics need a professional coach? Do you think clubs sports give young people more time for studies than varsity sports?



I will answer this group but answer this.. 
Why do you think college sport exists? More specifically, why do you think college "Olympic" sports exist? Not should they but why?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> Fair and true because I want it to improve.  I think part of my reason my kid made the Xolo’s team is because they love having a gringo around to make fun of.  The jokes hurt but all I can say in response is pass me another beer to numb the pain.  Coach, please help a brotha out and commit to doing better.
> 
> As to college sports, I know several pro athletes who all think that college sports suck.  Many think playing sports deters kids from taking rigorous courses.  Many think it’s unnecessarily difficult to manage school and sports.  Accordingly, academics and club sports should be the focus for a more enjoyable college experience and higher probability of success because of higher grades in more rigorous courses.


I think your thoughts are right on for men's sports but completely wrong for women's sports.  Also My dd's team is full women taking tough majors. The vast majority had GPA's above 3.5.  In fact I think the rigors of playing college sports helps players to stay focused on their studies.


----------



## Ellejustus

Nix decommits from UCLA to join G League
					

Five-star point guard Daishen Nix is decommitting from UCLA and signing with the new G League pathway program, the league announced Tuesday.




					www.espn.com
				




G League pathway to the NBA


----------



## TOSDCI

MacDre said:


> No more like sweetie you don’t have what it takes to play at the highest level but I love you.  Focus on your studies and continue playing for fun.  Win some lose some is the lesson and if it doesn’t kill you it’ll make you stronger.  In the real world everyone doesn’t get a trophy.
> Coach, your entitlement is coming out. After 16, if we know a kid can’t make it, why continue the lie?  What’s with this everybody’s a winner and everybody gets a trophy?  Fuck that...play club and study hard!


D1 sports and studying hard do not need to be mutually exclusive.  There are plenty of students that can do both and be very successful.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Slacker... done at 22... I pushed myself and finished at 23.. do you know how many more college classes I got to take in the 6yr plan.


Probably not more than if you would have pursued a graduate or professional degree with that time.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Couple questions for you, I was hoping you could elaborate on.
> 
> 1. How is college getting in the way of 1-2 out of 100 players?
> 2. Who is “you guys”?
> 3. Why are there no more lanes?
> 
> What’s funny to me about the 1-2 player argument is that it was our families biggest complaint about DA...designing a program with international rules for the super small sub-set of kids who will ever play them representing a country or play professionally.  Seemed upside down to me.
> 
> Also, the goal for the vast majority of the consumers (parents) is college.  Not pro.  If I’m building a product, designing a service, trying to build a revenue stream I’m designing it so I can capture as many customers as possible.  I’m designing so what I have works for 98% of the customers (those I am targeting, specialty, niche, etc.) and keeping them happy.  I’m not worried about the 2% I may lose, but will likely try to figure out a way to catch them.
> 
> ECNL is selling college.  Look at their marketing/messaging.  They are not selling pro.  Not one youth league in this country is selling pro.  Maybe NWSL should open the draft to all players, not just players exiting college.


I need to take a break.  I really want to thank you for speaking up for what you want out of soccer.  I want college soccer to work out for everybody too.  I also want our country to win at soccer and I have my concerns.  The men, I have no hope for at this time.  Someone needs to help them.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Many kids work full time when going to school.  They have class, they have work, then they have homework.


I understand.  But the issue is what’s the best route...not just what’s the normal ordinary route but what’s the best route?


----------



## Ellejustus

I do think it's ridiculous that we have 300 D1 girls soccer teams.  That is over kill.  I think they should have less, like maybe 100 and then D2. D1 is sexy and it sells the ego big time   "My dd plays D1" just like my dd was in the GDA league.


----------



## dean

> If that was MVLA's 1st team, that would be depressing.


That's Ratcliffe's team, though, right?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> It’s entitlement to think a student should be able to play varsity sports for experience instead of focusing on studies and future career while playing club due to love of the game.


I did not say that every soccer player thinks they should be able to play college soccer but many aspire to.. aspiration is different than entitlement.  If that was the case, many former BearCats would be picketing their university as they are entitled to play soccer there.  It is not a birthright to play soccer anywhere.  It is also a provided opportunity by the NCAA and NAIA.  Soccer is for everyone who chooses it.   I have a player who was noticed at Surf.  She was noticed by a school she may not otherwise be able to afford because of soccer.  If she chooses to keep her grades up, get good test scores and pursue the opportunity.  If it wasn't for college soccer that opportunity at school may not be there.  This is the flaw in your argument.  In my limited experience, she is not entitled to this but she has to earn the opportunity.   She and I have had that conversation. 

AAU is exclusionary to then.  The cost to travel is not free.   Those uniforms are not cheap and gym time is costly.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> I do think it's ridiculous that we have 300 D1 girls soccer teams.  That is over kill.  I think they should have less, like maybe 100 and then D2. D1 is sexy and it sells the ego big time   "My dd plays D1" just like my dd was in the GDA league.


Who gets those 100 programs.  Why them and not the others..  You answer.. why do college athletics exist.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Nix decommits from UCLA to join G League
> 
> 
> Five-star point guard Daishen Nix is decommitting from UCLA and signing with the new G League pathway program, the league announced Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G League pathway to the NBA


And if he flames out?? No education or understanding of what it takes to be a college student.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

vegasguy said:


> D3 is the option for a rigorous college schedule at a very academic university.  Rules are different there.  I am not sure you realize that.  Look at the Claremont Consortium Schools or the NESCAC conference.   Do you think those student athletes should give up soccer or lacrosse or track or basketball.  College sports are not about becoming a pro.  Football and Basketball make it appear to be.   Why does D1 mean you can not have a rigorous study schedule.  I know civil engineers that played D1 sports.  I trust they know what they are doing when they are designing our roadways and infrastructure.   You speak of D1 sports from a bball and football prospective.  You do not see the track athlete or the swimmer or water polo player.


I played D1 Water Polo and got my Mechanical Engineering degree!  I would not trade either experiences.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Probably not more than if you would have pursued a graduate or professional degree with that time.


I chose to enjoy being young.  I worked graveyard, played college club sports, took my time.  No rush... what did I miss out by graduating at 23 as opposed to 21?


----------



## Ellejustus

warrior49 said:


> This is an interesting topic. My DD is sitting here amused by reading this stuff with me. Minority, college junior, plays in the Pac12 and loves every minute of it. From picking her classes first to the many, many benefits of being a student-athlete, she would do it again in a second. We are not upper middle class and had it not been for her soccer scholarship she would have done the community college route then transfer to get her degree. College soccer has given her far more opportunities than she ever would have had (says her). Is it a grind at times? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes.


Can you ask her what her thoughts are on Sophie Smith skipping college to go pro?  Also, what's her take on someone like MP taking the money over college experience?  Was your dd good enough then and now to have the choice on pro or college today?  BTW, my dd chooses college experience and sports and life football game 100%.  However, it would be cool if money was there for all the players to go pro like Nix kid did going to the "G" league.  Choice is good


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> Couple questions for you, I was hoping you could elaborate on.
> 
> 1. How is college getting in the way of 1-2 out of 100 players?
> 2. Who is “you guys”?
> 3. Why are there no more lanes?
> 
> What’s funny to me about the 1-2 player argument is that it was our families biggest complaint about DA...designing a program with international rules for the super small sub-set of kids who will ever play them representing a country or play professionally.  Seemed upside down to me.
> 
> Also, the goal for the vast majority of the consumers (parents) is college.  Not pro.  If I’m building a product, designing a service, trying to build a revenue stream I’m designing it so I can capture as many customers as possible.  I’m designing so what I have works for 98% of the customers (those I am targeting, specialty, niche, etc.) and keeping them happy.  I’m not worried about the 2% I may lose, but will likely try to figure out a way to catch them.
> 
> ECNL is selling college.  Look at their marketing/messaging.  They are not selling pro.  Not one youth league in this country is selling pro.  Maybe NWSL should open the draft to all players, not just players exiting college.


You still don’t get it.  I’m saying your kid may have artificial limits placed on her because she hasn’t been in a optimal environment.  In other words, you need to leave room for the possibility that your kids growth is being stunted by their current environment.


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> Can you ask her what her thoughts are on Sophie Smith skipping college to go pro?  Also, what's her take on someone like MP taking the money over college experience?  Was your dd good enough then and now to have the choice on pro or college today?  BTW, my dd chooses college experience and sports and life football game 100%.  However, it would be cool if money was there for all the players to go pro like Nix kid did going to the "G" league.  Choice is good


You said you were taking a break...are you going to answer the questions I asked you?  Just checking


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> You still don’t get it.  I’m saying your kid may have artificial limits placed on her because she hasn’t been in a optimal environment.  In other words, you need to leave room for the possibility that your kids growth is being stunted by their current environment.


I don’t think you get it....Limits on what exactly?  What is being limited?  Optimal environment for what specifically?  Growth in what area?


----------



## MacDre

TOSDCI said:


> D1 sports and studying hard do not need to be mutually exclusive.  There are plenty of students that can do both and be very successful.


This issue is not can you do it but should you do it.


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> I don’t think you get it....Limits on what exactly?  What is being limited?  Optimal environment for what specifically?  Growth in what area?


Uh...we’re talking about soccer.


----------



## warrior49

Ellejustus said:


> Can you ask her what her thoughts are on Sophie Smith skipping college to go pro?  Also, what's her take on someone like MP taking the money over college experience?  Was your dd good enough then and now to have the choice on pro or college today?  BTW, my dd chooses college experience and sports and life football game 100%.  However, it would be cool if money was there for all the players to go pro like Nix kid did going to the "G" league.  Choice is good


Funny you ask as we were just talking about that. Her opinion is SS should have stayed at Stanford, and that for sure MP should have played at UCLA, especially given she was left off the US roster recently. She has friends that played NWSL who have told her its not the big glory that is sounds like. While she may choose to enter the draft after her senior year, she's indicated that she has bigger aspirations than playing for half-empty stadiums making $46k a year (looking at medical school down the road).  She wants her degree first and will move on from there.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Who gets those 100 programs.  Why them and not the others..  You answer.. why do college athletics exist.


I love college and I played hoops in NAIA or even lower I think, maybe NCCAA with Life college in it and Masters college.  It sure wasn;t D1.  Any college with 6 sports or more I think can apply for D1.  It's just too many.  It's way too many for the girls.  You should have to earn D1. Those other 200 should be called something else.  My opinion only.  I have no idea why we have sports in college but I love it.  I also think guys like Nix should be able to be drafted in the NBA out of HS or at 16 if they want and not have to go to the G league.  That is lame too.


----------



## Ellejustus

warrior49 said:


> Funny you ask as we were just talking about that. Her opinion is SS should have stayed at Stanford, and that for sure MP should have played at UCLA, especially given she was left off the US roster recently. She has friends that played NWSL who have told her its not the big glory that is sounds like. While she may choose to enter the draft after her senior year, she's indicated that she has bigger aspirations than playing for half-empty stadiums making $46k a year (looking at medical school down the road).  She wants her degree first and will move on from there.


Too each his own, right?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

dean said:


> That's Ratcliffe's team, though, right?


I think so... and they're not bad.  The San Juan A team isn't bad, but MVLA 04 is supposed to be a machine and that's not what I saw in that video.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> Can you ask her what her thoughts are on Sophie Smith skipping college to go pro?  Also, what's her take on someone like MP taking the money over college experience?  Was your dd good enough then and now to have the choice on pro or college today?  BTW, my dd chooses college experience and sports and life football game 100%.  However, it would be cool if money was there for all the players to go pro like Nix kid did going to the "G" league.  Choice is good


I don't know how you can justify walking away from a Stanford diploma unless there's some incredible circumstance.  I hope it works out for her but I would be a mortified parent.  I know a former Stanford player that was drafted, mid to low range, that wore the jersey long enough to take a photo and said, "fuck it... I'll make 4 times as much using my education."


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> You said you were taking a break...are you going to answer the questions I asked you?  Just checking


A break from you sir.  You're too smart and I want think about my answer before I answer too fast


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> I don't know how you can justify walking away from a Stanford diploma unless there's some incredible circumstance.  I hope it works out for her but I would be a mortified parent.


It's her life and she chose.  That girl can play and she seems really happy in her interviews.  I wish her all the best with doing what she wants.  My dd wants college life.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> It's her life and she chose.  That girl can play and she seems really happy in her interviews.  I wish her all the best with doing what she wants.  My dd wants college life.


There's not a parent on the planet that would encourage their kid to walk from a degree and play pro for $30k a year.  YOU might... but you couldn't pass a urine test.


----------



## warrior49

Ellejustus said:


> Too each his own, right?


For sure. Whatever your dream is, go for it.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I understand.  But the issue is what’s the best route...not just what’s the normal ordinary route but what’s the best route?


What is the value of your daughter's degree (specifically from her school there) if soccer doesn't pan out and she comes back home to work?  How would it compare to a typical diploma from a UC or private?


----------



## warrior49

The Outlaw said:


> I don't know how you can justify walking away from a Stanford diploma unless there's some incredible circumstance.  I hope it works out for her but I would be a mortified parent.  I know a former Stanford player that was drafted, mid to low range, that wore the jersey long enough to take a photo and said, "fuck it... I'll make 4 times as much using my education."


I've heard many of those stories from my DD. They all talk. It sounds fun to get "drafted" into a pro league. But come on... In her view, college D1 soccer is more popular right now than the NWSL.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> I did not say that every soccer player thinks they should be able to play college soccer but many aspire to.. aspiration is different than entitlement.  If that was the case, many former BearCats would be picketing their university as they are entitled to play soccer there.  It is not a birthright to play soccer anywhere.  It is also a provided opportunity by the NCAA and NAIA.  Soccer is for everyone who chooses it.   I have a player who was noticed at Surf.  She was noticed by a school she may not otherwise be able to afford because of soccer.  If she chooses to keep her grades up, get good test scores and pursue the opportunity.  If it wasn't for college soccer that opportunity at school may not be there.  ThisAA





warrior49 said:


> Funny you ask as we were just talking about that. Her opinion is SS should have stayed at Stanford, and that for sure MP should have played at UCLA, especially given she was left off the US roster recently. She has friends that played NWSL who have told her its not the big glory that is sounds like. While she may choose to enter the draft after her senior year, she's indicated that she has bigger aspirations than playing for half-empty stadiums making $46k a year (looking at medical school down the road).  She wants her degree first and will move on from there.


maybe this is a chicken or egg argument.  Maybe the reason women can only make 50k is because the league is full of players that were developed in an environment where everyone wants to go to college for the experience and not pro.  Maybe if we had a more cutthroat development process the NWSL would be more entertaining and profitable.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> What is the value of your daughter's degree (specifically from her school there) if soccer doesn't pan out and she comes back home to work?  How would it compare to a typical diploma from a UC or private?


My kid will go to Cal.  She could also attend UCSD.  But, the new CEO of USSF went to one (most would say only) of the Mexican schools and he’s doing fine.  A degree from Tec is very portable.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

warrior49 said:


> I've heard many of those stories from my DD. They all talk. It sounds fun to get "drafted" into a pro league. But come on... In her view, college D1 soccer is more popular right now than the NWSL.


Well, she's a terrific player... could be a number of reasons why, but she would have been drafted any year.  Maybe if you're at Cal State ______ but that Stanford degree is special and she's clearly academic enough to get in.  I agree with your statement.  Shit... is there ANY women's soccer more prolific than Stanford right now?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> maybe this is a chicken or egg argument.  Maybe the reason women can only make 50k is because the league is full of players that were developed in an environment where everyone wants to go to college for the experience and not pro.  Maybe if we had a more cutthroat development process the NWSL would be more entertaining and profitable.


that is laughable.  For the WNBA which is funded by the NBA would you say the same or is it what the market can afford.  
again once you find questions you do not want to answer you avoid.  You should run for office.  Nevada Governor is in trouble.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> My kid will go to Cal.  She could also attend UCSD.  But, the new CEO of USSF went to one (most would say only) of the Mexican schools and he’s doing fine.  A degree from Tec is very portable.


Well, if you don't fuck her up, Cal probably will.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

warrior49 said:


> Funny you ask as we were just talking about that. Her opinion is SS should have stayed at Stanford, and that for sure MP should have played at UCLA, especially given she was left off the US roster recently. She has friends that played NWSL who have told her its not the big glory that is sounds like. While she may choose to enter the draft after her senior year, she's indicated that she has bigger aspirations than playing for half-empty stadiums making $46k a year (looking at medical school down the road).  She wants her degree first and will move on from there.


Pugh looks like she woke up one morning, in a woman's body, and no longer blows by people.  When she first came up she was just destroying defenders.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> There's not a parent on the planet that would encourage their kid to walk from a degree and play pro for $30k a year.  YOU might... but you couldn't pass a urine test.


Valid point.  However, I think Smith should’ve had the opportunity to go pro at 15.  She would’ve still had Stanford as an option if things weren’t working out around 20.


----------



## MacDre

warrior49 said:


> I've heard many of those stories from my DD. They all talk. It sounds fun to get "drafted" into a pro league. But come on... In her view, college D1 soccer is more popular right now than the NWSL.


Has she considered foreign leagues?


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Couple questions for you, I was hoping you could elaborate on.
> 
> 1. How is college getting in the way of 1-2 out of 100 players?
> 2. Who is “you guys”?
> 3. Why are there no more lanes?


A1. We are Sold/Programmed to go to college when were babies.  Let the top 2% ((if they want to)) go pro.  Let the other top 2% got to college and go pro after or go start a nursing career.  I don;t see choices but it's just the old system we were all living in.  Them days are over sir 

A2. People who have trained their kids that they have to go to college and they use soccer as way to get into school.  It's cool, I'm not judging.  It's the system we all played in.  My mom went to SC as did her first husband.

A3.  Before the year of the Corona, the club system was 100% for college, although my dd and I were tricked with YNT fairy scouts and pros in 2016-2017.  I see 100% it was one big lie but we didn't know that at the time.  I have some pain from the school system i was taught in too so I'm personally not a fan to a "one shoe size fits all the feet" and we all have to live like the Smiths and Jones.  It's not a knock on you, it just seems like parents have their kids lives planned for them and college and soccer is 100% in the plans.  Again, warrior's kid is all fired up and I like hearing that.  SS seems super happy too. MP, I'm not so sure and that is ok too.  However, maybe she is laughing at the bank and is super happy? I want choices for all the kids.


----------



## Ellejustus

warrior49 said:


> I've heard many of those stories from my DD. They all talk. It sounds fun to get "drafted" into a pro league. But come on... In her view, college D1 soccer is more popular right now than the NWSL.


Plus, when Maps shares the pro life, my dd is 100% a no and so am I.  I can see myself forking out money for her life style just so she can say she's a pro soccer player.  She will need to make well over 6 figures to be happy and that is not going to happen.  I wish we could find a way to get them paid.


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> I care because I think there is some serious de facto segregation going on within US soccer.  I see a lot of people being excluded from mainstream US soccer for fabricated BS reasons.  I think a system that excludes the poor from the outset and gives admissions preferences to a bunch of upper middle class kids that don’t want to go pro and only want the “experience” is unethical.


I agree completely that US soccer excludes many people, but I think the biggest source of that exclusion is the youth pay to play model and closed leagues like ECNL. Unfortunately it is what we have now. If we focused on and tweaked the existing but older model of Local Leagues/National Cup/Regional Championships/National League/National Championships to be more inclusive and allow any team that qualifies to move up the ladder we would see the decrease in the power of the mega-clubs Wouldn't it be great if a  team from a league like Tiffany's won it all and got some real exposure for their players to get noticed by college coaches?

College athletic scholarships help some who cannot afford to attend college get a degree. It is not a perfect system but college coaches will offer scholarships to anyone that they think will help them win. They just need more exposure to a broader spectrum of the population.

I am not trying to shoot any messengers, but I am saying that college soccer has many positives and is worth including in the US Soccer's path forward. The NCAA needs to pull their heads out of the sand and look to the future however.


----------



## Ellejustus

outside! said:


> I agree completely that US soccer excludes many people, but I think the biggest source of that exclusion is the youth pay to play model and closed leagues like ECNL. Unfortunately it is what we have now. If we focused on and tweaked the existing but older model of Local Leagues/National Cup/Regional Championships/National League/National Championships to be more inclusive and allow any team that qualifies to move up the ladder we would see the decrease in the power of the mega-clubs Wouldn't it be great if a  team from a league like Tiffany's won it all and got some real exposure for their players to get noticed by college coaches?
> 
> College athletic scholarships help some who cannot afford to attend college get a degree. It is not a perfect system but college coaches will offer scholarships to anyone that they think will help them win. They just need more exposure to a broader spectrum of the population.
> 
> I am not trying to shoot any messengers, but I am saying that college soccer has many positives and is worth including in the US Soccer's path forward. The NCAA needs to pull their heads out of the sand and look to the future however.


I love College sports!!!!


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> I agree completely that US soccer excludes many people, but I think the biggest source of that exclusion is the youth pay to play model and closed leagues like ECNL. Unfortunately it is what we have now. If we focused on and tweaked the existing but older model of Local Leagues/National Cup/Regional Championships/National League/National Championships to be more inclusive and allow any team that qualifies to move up the ladder we would see the decrease in the power of the mega-clubs Wouldn't it be great if a  team from a league like Tiffany's won it all and got some real exposure for their players to get noticed by college coaches?
> 
> College athletic scholarships help some who cannot afford to attend college get a degree. It is not a perfect system but college coaches will offer scholarships to anyone that they think will help them win. They just need more exposure to a broader spectrum of the population.
> 
> I am not trying to shoot any messengers, but I am saying that college soccer has many positives and is worth including in the US Soccer's path forward. The NCAA needs to pull their heads out of the sand and look to the future however.


I 100% agree but I’m bored and like seeing Vegasguy get all into his feelings.


----------



## JumboJack

I was fortunate enough to travel to Manchester with my DD recently. She was able to be a mascot at a Man U game. It was an incredible experience. 
Anyways... We went to a Man U Women's game. Attendance was right around 800 people (at less than 10.00 a ticket).
Attended the Man U Men's game. Attendance was 70,000 + (And the tickets were just a tad more that 10.00 ea.).

So yeah...


----------



## warrior49

MacDre said:


> Has she considered foreign leagues?


She definitely has. Possibly play in Spain or Portugal, or even the UK. But who knows... thats a year away


----------



## dad4

dean said:


> That's Ratcliffe's team, though, right?


Yes.  Ratcliffe’s, not Montoya’s.  Still a good team.

I should have posted 06 for San Juan, so I was showing the best year for each club.


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> I was fortunate enough to travel to Manchester with my DD recently. She was able to be a mascot at a Man U game. It was an incredible experience.
> Anyways... We went to a Man U Women's game. Attendance was right around 800 people (at less than 10.00 a ticket).
> Attended the Man U Men's game. Attendance was 70,000 + (And the tickets were just a tad more that 10.00 ea.).
> 
> So yeah...


Good point.  But do you know it’s like that because I think traditionally the British were the most sexist in the world.  Sexism was even in the laws.  Women couldn’t even pass citizenship to their children.

I remember reading something about women’s football in England and Mexico doing better then the men’s game in both countries and then women were subsequently outlawed from playing.
So, the issue isn’t the viability of the women’s game but rather how do we remedy the ills of the past while moving forward.


----------



## dad4

viability is THE question for the women’s game.   How do you pay a decent salary on 7,000 tickets and no TV contract?

Right now, they can keep players by using the WNT roster as a carrot.  Same theory as using the YNT roster to prop up DA.  And it will work equally well long term.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I 100% agree but I’m bored and like seeing Vegasguy get all into his feelings.


Funny. I am bored too and really not into feelings except finding humor messing with you.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I 100% agree but I’m bored and like seeing Vegasguy get all into his feelings.


You know you British take things a little to personal.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> Uh...we’re talking about soccer.


That’s what I thought.  You are making my point for me...my daughter is not a soccer savant, top 1%, or whatever.  She works hard, competes, and takes it very serious.  She has fun with it.

Soccer is something my daughter does, not who she is. It’s a hobby. A thing. If she has the opportunity to play in college, she will then have quite a few years left to play competitively and have fun with the sport, teammates and friends...be a kid for as long as you can do those kid things before entering the big bad world.

Then 60+ years to live her life and follow her personal and career dreams and most importantly start and build a family of her own.  Her life and her journey.  Soccer is not in her “dreams”...she wants to do a lot of things in her life but playing professional soccer is not among them.

Being limited in opportunities for soccer, or growth opportunities in soccer, or the optimal training environment for soccer does not even resonate or register with me.  Soccer is not life, it’s a kids game...it’s a fun activity, but as a team sport I do find it very rewarding and think there is immeasurable value in playing competitive team sports as a youth and that includes college.

If your argument is that if she had better things soccer wise - opportunities, training, growth, etc. than maybe she might develop into something she is not currently and then may want to play pro...Sure, I can get there and see how you get to that point.  I agree we all improve with better education/training, opportunities, etc.  I just hope my daughter has bigger dreams than chasing a $50k paycheck.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> My kid will go to Cal.  She could also attend UCSD.  But, the new CEO of USSF went to one (most would say only) of the Mexican schools and he’s doing fine.  A degree from Tec is very portable.


I may have mis-understood you...I thought you said your DD was going to graduate from University at 18...do you mean graduate from Cal or UCSD at 18?  Cal or UCSD for Grad-School?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Valid point.  However, I think Smith should’ve had the opportunity to go pro at 15.  She would’ve still had Stanford as an option if things weren’t working out around 20.


Maybe not if she had to pay for it herself.


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> That’s what I thought.  You are making my point for me...my daughter is not a soccer savant, top 1%, or whatever.  She works hard, competes, and takes it very serious.  She has fun with it.
> 
> Soccer is something my daughter does, not who she is. It’s a hobby. A thing. If she has the opportunity to play in college, she will then have quite a few years left to play competitively and have fun with the sport, teammates and friends...be a kid for as long as you can do those kid things before entering the big bad world.
> 
> Then 60+ years to live her life and follow her personal and career dreams and most importantly start and build a family of her own.  Her life and her journey.  Soccer is not in her “dreams”...she wants to do a lot of things in her life but playing professional soccer is not among them.
> 
> Being limited in opportunities for soccer, or growth opportunities in soccer, or the optimal training environment for soccer does not even resonate or register with me.  Soccer is not life, it’s a kids game...it’s a fun activity, but as a team sport I do find it very rewarding and think there is immeasurable value in playing competitive team sports as a youth and that includes college.
> 
> If your argument is that if she had better things soccer wise - opportunities, training, growth, etc. than maybe she might develop into something she is not currently and then may want to play pro...Sure, I can get there and see how you get to that point.  I agree we all improve with better education/training, opportunities, etc.  I just hope my daughter has bigger dreams than chasing a $50k paycheck.


So why not AYSO or the cheapest option?  Why are you paying for fancy, elite, & competitive club soccer?  I detect well written BS!


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> I may have mis-understood you...I thought you said your DD was going to graduate from University at 18...do you mean graduate from Cal or UCSD at 18?  Cal or UCSD for Grad-School?


Undergraduate


----------



## MacDre

I


The Outlaw said:


> Maybe not if she had to pay for it herself.


If she went pro at 15 she would be a top recruit.  When my kid starting playing, I think CM at Stanford was a top recruit...8 years later she still is.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> viability is THE question for the women’s game.   How do you pay a decent salary on 7,000 tickets and no TV contract?
> 
> Right now, they can keep players by using the WNT roster as a carrot.  Same theory as using the YNT roster to prop up DA.  And it will work equally well long term.


The TV contact is the problem and it shouldn’t be but for institutionalized sexism.  I see women’s games regularly on TV in Mexico.  Same thing in Spain when I was there.


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> I
> 
> If she went pro at 15 she would be a top recruit.  When my kid starting playing, I think CM at Stanford was a top recruit...8 years later she still is.


I believe that once an athlete plays professional sports, they are not eligible for NCAA.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> I believe that once an athlete plays professional sports, they are not eligible for NCAA.


There’s a girl on Cal’s roster that played in the Champions League prior to Cal


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> So why not AYSO or the cheapest option?  Why are you paying for fancy, elite, & competitive club soccer?  I detect well written BS!


Haha...Thanks for the compliment.  Much appreciated.  To be honest, she is playing where she wants to play.  Fortunately we can make it work, and don’t mind the travel.  Our family has a lot of fun with the whole thing.  Where the teams have traveled to play the last few years we have family and friends - Phx, OC, SD, Vegas, No Cal and even FL, NC, and CO.  The social aspect for our family is a lot of fun.  We actually have reconnected with some people we have not seen in a long time and see some more often than we used to.  It’s been good.

What do you think my truth is if what I wrote is BS?  Your’s, well I think you enjoy stirring it up a bit and having fun doing it.  There is no shortage of willing participants because people are locked up and bored (god knows I’ve been on here more than ever the last few weeks).  It’s fun and I have spent time doing worse things.


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> Haha...Thanks for the compliment.  Much appreciated.  To be honest, she is playing where she wants to play.  Fortunately we can make it work, and don’t mind the travel.  Our family has a lot of fun with the whole thing.  Where the teams have traveled to play the last few years we have family and friends - Phx, OC, SD, Vegas, No Cal and even FL, NC, and CO.  The social aspect for our family is a lot of fun.  We actually have reconnected with some people we have not seen in a long time and see some more often than we used to.  It’s been good.
> 
> What do you think my truth is if what I wrote is BS?  Your’s, well I think you enjoy stirring it up a bit and having fun doing it.  There is no shortage of willing participants because people are locked up and bored (god knows I’ve been on here more than ever the last few weeks).  It’s fun and I have spent time doing worse things.


Okay.  You got me.


----------



## Kicknit22

Ellejustus said:


> Hey bro, I'm good at playing "Me and MacDre."  I learned the hood by going down to South Central to see MacDre every week when we were little guys.  I would go down from Laguna and have plays dates at the park with him and his friends all the time.  In fact, I found a pic of my mom helping out one of MacDres cousins.
> 
> View attachment 6992


LMFAO!  Yep.  Can’t take you serious anymore.  Will have to gloss over posts from both.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> The TV contact is the problem and it shouldn’t be but for institutionalized sexism.  I see women’s games regularly on TV in Mexico.  Same thing in Spain when I was there.


I’ll bite...c’mon...institutionalized sexism...really...now I know you are just having fun with people.

They show NWSL Games on Lifetime...USWNT on ESPN and ABC.  For the USWNT, the ad rev, sponsorship support, and ratings support the content on the major networks.  For NWSL not so much.  It’s why the Super Bowl is not on ESPN 8 “The Ocho” and on a Major Network during Primetime.  Programming is determined by $$$.  It’s not Institutionalized Sexism, it’s because the product does not generate the ratings, $$$, or sponsorship.


----------



## MacDre

T


Woobie06 said:


> I’ll bite...c’mon...institutionalized sexism...really...now I know you are just having fun with people.
> 
> They show NWSL Games on Lifetime...USWNT on ESPN and ABC.  For the USWNT, the ad rev, sponsorship support, and ratings support the content on the major networks.  For NWSL not so much.  It’s why the Super Bowl is not on ESPN 8 “The Ocho” and on a Major Network during Primetime.  Programming is determined by $$$.  It’s not Institutionalized Sexism, it’s because the product does not generate the ratings, $$$, or sponsorship.


The product isn’t generating money due to structural barriers to entrance in the past.  In other words, if women’s soccer would’ve been supported equally for the same amount of time as men it would be very successful currently.
Laws were enacted to exclude women from the game and a prevailing mindset that women belong in the kitchen and the bedroom.  And don’t forget real men kept their bitches barefooted, pregnant, and walking like a duck.  To deny the impact these factors are having on women’s soccer is dishonest.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> There’s a girl on Cal’s roster that played in the Champions League prior to Cal


Not possible.  You may have just outed her then.  Once you sign a pro contract, you are no longer an amateur for that particular sport.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Undergraduate


Doogie Houser style.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Not possible.  You may have just outed her then.  Once you sign a pro contract, you are no longer an amateur for that particular sport.


According to my conversation with the coach at Cal, that’s not true.  He said the determining factor would be if she took money in excess of expenses.  But even if she did, it would only amount to a temporary suspension.


----------



## Kicknit22

Woobie06 said:


> I’ll bite...c’mon...institutionalized sexism...really...now I know you are just having fun with people.
> 
> They show NWSL Games on Lifetime...USWNT on ESPN and ABC.  For the USWNT, the ad rev, sponsorship support, and ratings support the content on the major networks.  For NWSL not so much.  It’s why the Super Bowl is not on ESPN 8 “The Ocho” and on a Major Network during Primetime.  Programming is determined by $$$.  It’s not Institutionalized Sexism, it’s because the product does not generate the ratings, $$$, or sponsorship.


 Agree Woobie06.  But viewership would increase, I believe, with better marketing and advertising.  Along with programming on some more accessible channels.  The effort simply is not there.  I get sick of hearing that the product is subpar. Complete bullshit.  But, it’s the people that make those decisions that think along those very lines, that are the problem.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> According to my conversation with the coach at Cal, that’s not true.  He said the determining factor would be if she took money in excess of expenses.  But even if she did, it would only amount to a temporary suspension.


Cal coach is wrong. A pro contract is a pro contract. Doesn’t matter what amount.  Same as NCAA eligibility guidlines.  Player cannot have EVER received compensation for playing at any time.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Cal coach is wrong. A pro contract is a pro contract. Doesn’t matter what amount.  Same as NCAA eligibility guidlines.  Player cannot have EVER received compensation for playing at any time.


But they can receive reasonable  expenses and what constitutes reasonable expenses is debatable.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> Good point.  But do you know it’s like that because I think traditionally the British were the most sexist in the world.  Sexism was even in the laws.  Women couldn’t even pass citizenship to their children.
> 
> I remember reading something about women’s football in England and Mexico doing better then the men’s game in both countries and then women were subsequently outlawed from playing.
> So, the issue isn’t the viability of the women’s game but rather how do we remedy the ills of the past while moving forward.


I hear woman coudn;t vote too.  The fact were even talking about 800 watching pro girls in England a great tribute to how far we have come.  Go girls!!!


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> Cal coach is wrong. A pro contract is a pro contract. Doesn’t matter what amount.  Same as NCAA eligibility guidlines.  Player cannot have EVER received compensation for playing at any time.


oh really, where have you been the last 40 years?


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Haha...Thanks for the compliment.  Much appreciated.  To be honest, she is playing where she wants to play.  Fortunately we can make it work, and don’t mind the travel.  Our family has a lot of fun with the whole thing.  Where the teams have traveled to play the last few years we have family and friends - Phx, OC, SD, Vegas, No Cal and even FL, NC, and CO.  The social aspect for our family is a lot of fun.  We actually have reconnected with some people we have not seen in a long time and see some more often than we used to.  It’s been good.
> 
> What do you think my truth is if what I wrote is BS?  Your’s, well I think you enjoy stirring it up a bit and having fun doing it.  There is no shortage of willing participants because people are locked up and bored (god knows I’ve been on here more than ever the last few weeks).  It’s fun and I have spent time doing worse things.


How much you spend woobie for all that fun soccer and travel?  Be honest too......


----------



## Ellejustus

Kicknit22 said:


> LMFAO!  Yep.  Can’t take you serious anymore.  Will have to gloss over posts from both.


I'm just a dumb ass bro, it's ok.  Go ahead, please don;t take me serious because I sure in the hell don;t take you serious buddy....lol!!!!!


----------



## Kicknit22

Ellejustus said:


> I'm just a dumb ass bro, it's ok.  Go ahead, please don;t take me serious because I sure in the hell don;t take you serious buddy....lol!!!!!


None of us knows shit!  We just claim to.  We’ve all stayed at a Holiday Inn at some point.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> I hear woman coudn;t vote too.  The fact were even talking about 800 watching pro girls in England a great tribute to how far we have come.  Go girls!!!


800 girls.  Is good.  but you will need more to keep the likes of players of Sam Kerr quality.  $600k per year.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> 800 girls.  Is good.  but you will need more to keep the likes of players of Sam Kerr quality.  $600k per year.


*In what year did women cease to be considered private property of their husbands in England?*


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Kicknit22 said:


> Not possible.  You may have just outed her then.  Once you sign a pro contract, you are no longer an amateur for that particular sport.


Maybe "Champions League" from ECNL?


----------



## dk_b

That was an incredible ride.  I have been reading and reading about D1 College Soccer being Under Threat for a LONG time (you all covered a shit-ton of ground in not that many days).  It made me think of the old NorCal board and the string about FC Elk Grove that went on for a couple of years (I had major surgery about 3 or 4 months into that thread and was completely out of pocket for two weeks (ICU, etc.) and commented when I came back that I was reassured that the string was continuing - never imagined it would go for years.  But this one . . . so many comments in such a short period of time.  As I went down the rabbit hole, I'd occasionally ping back to check my work email so I did not miss anything.

If we are going to look at D1 athletics only as a vehicle to professional $$$ (which, I think, may have been a point made back on page 2), then we can bag nearly all college sports, not just soccer.  All but football, men's basketball (which can be scaled back b/c the # of D1 players who play high level pro ball (say, NBA, Euro, even G league) is a relatively small percentage), baseball (again, small percentage) and maybe women's hoops.  Everything else . . . bag 'em!  The elite tennis players don't play college.  Swimming is kinda sorta required but the top, top level swimmers are starting to leave early (while I think Missy Franklin did all 4 years at Cal, I think Katie Ledecky only swam a couple at Stanford and I am not sure if Phelps ever swam collegiately).  Golf is still an area where guys play college before pro but they are not honing their game in college so let's bag that, too.

But the schools don't see it that way - they reap benefits even if the program loses money in direct revenues v costs - and the athletes certainly don't (or many don't) see it that way.  Getting in to schools that maybe would have chosen another with the same academic credentials, or having some relief in paying for school so that going to college w/o being crushed by debt, or just the intangibles for teamwork, creativity, discipline, etc. that come with being an athlete?  I'm glad my kid will be playing sports in college and won't face (or we won't face) a debt load when she's done.  I am glad she will have resources available to her as a student athlete that will give her the best chance to thrive in college (her choice in school was a direct reflection of the support she will get in academics - she saw that herself w/o any input from her parents).  A short-term career goal IS to play professionally (hell, doing that until you are in your mid-20s . . . that sounds awesome.  I was a school teacher out of college and did not do grad school until 27; if I were playing a sport in Europe rather than being in a classroom . . . sounds pretty great) and maybe to see whether her talent, the coaching and her dedication allows her to represent the country.  For her, as for most student athletes (since, like the ad says, most will be going pro in something else), playing for the school and the tradeoff of what the school provides will, hopefully, be worth it.  (some of the more veteran parents who are following this conversation, like @Simisoccerfan (whom I hope to meet when our kids face off if there is a women's soccer season), can say whether, for their kids, it has been "worth it").

(@MacDre - I have looked into the FIFA rules regarding repping countries and they are different than citizenship rules.  That is, each country can decide how it naturalizes citizens but FIFA decides who is eligible.  My wife holds dual citizenship with Ireland.  My kids are not eligible for the Irish national team automatically.  They may be in a different sport - the rules may differ by international governing body - but it would require certain steps to be eligible under FIFA rules.  Where it can help is playing professionally since my kids can get their Irish citizenship and being an EU citizen makes some of the administrative burdens much less for playing on a pro (club) team.  Not sure how Brexit will impact that for EU players in the UK, however).  And, as others have said, I'm really rooting for your kid - I root for all your kids to do well - and hope she gets the rewards she wants.  She sounds like a pretty incredible young person, lots of talent that goes way beyond soccer.  I love hearing about kids like that).


----------



## MacDre

Ellejustus said:


> *In what year did women cease to be considered private property of their husbands in England?*


Of the top of my head, I’d say 1983


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> *In what year did women cease to be considered private property of their husbands in England?*


quit yelling but it was that one year.. you know that one year.


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> T
> 
> The product isn’t generating money due to structural barriers to entrance in the past.  In other words, if women’s soccer would’ve been supported equally for the same amount of time as men it would be very successful currently.
> Laws were enacted to exclude women from the game and a prevailing mindset that women belong in the kitchen and the bedroom.  And don’t forget real men kept their bitches barefooted, pregnant, and walking like a duck.  To deny the impact these factors are having on women’s soccer is dishonest.


1, I wouldn’t call those people real men.  I would call them misogynists.  2, it’s not generating money because companies are not buying ad space and people are not watching it.  It does not make money.  If the ratings were higher, companies would buy ads.  That’s how it works.

The WNBA has been around for 24 years.  When was the last time you watched WNBA game?  NBA, when was the last time you watched? (Excluding the situation we are in with no sports).  Best women’s basketball around and not many people watch.  I’m sure it has nothing to do with entertainment value and $$$ and everything to do with what you said.



Kicknit22 said:


> Agree Woobie06.  But viewership would increase, I believe, with better marketing and advertising.  Along with programming on some more accessible channels.  The effort simply is not there.  I get sick of hearing that the product is subpar. Complete bullshit.  But, it’s the people that make those decisions that think along those very lines, that are the problem.


I agree with you, investing in marketing would drive viewership.  I never said the product was subpar.  I enjoy watching women’s soccer and wish there was more available to watch.  I don’t run a media company.  I’m saying the decisions are being made based on dollars and cents.  The $$$ for the media company’s/networks does not justify the effort.  They are not altruistic, for the good of the people organizations.  These media companies are for profit, public companies and are concerned about share price, EBITDA, and generating new revenue streams.  The execs that run them want their bonuses, options, and to keep their jobs.  These companies are getting their margins trimmed by new media companies eating into traditional media, declining ad revenue, and viewership behavior.  If the return on investment is not there they are not putting money into it.


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> How much you spend woobie for all that fun soccer and travel?  Be honest too......


We spend as much as any other family on our daughters team.  Maybe a little less, as we do stay with friends and family a lot rather than hotels.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> My kid will go to Cal.  She could also attend UCSD.  But, the new CEO of USSF went to one (most would say only) of the Mexican schools and he’s doing fine.  A degree from Tec is very portable.


You kid is 12!  You need a very High HS gpa along with excellent SATs.  Your kid already has these?  Or do you know Rick Singer?


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> quit yelling but it was that one year.. you know that one year.


I copied and paste from Google and it was bold


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> We spend as much as any other family on our daughters team.  Maybe a little less, as we do stay with friends and family a lot rather than hotels.


You didnt answer my question.  How much Woobie?


----------



## MacDre

Woobie06 said:


> 1, I wouldn’t call those people real men.  I would call them misogynists.  2, it’s not generating money because companies are not buying ad space and people are not watching it.  It does not make money.  If the ratings were higher, companies would buy ads.  That’s how it works.
> 
> The WNBA has been around for 24 years.  When was the last time you watched WNBA game?  NBA, when was the last time you watched? (Excluding the situation we are in with no sports).  Best women’s basketball around and not many people watch.  I’m sure it has nothing to do with entertainment value and $$$ and everything to do with what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you, investing in marketing would drive viewership.  I never said the product was subpar.  I enjoy watching women’s soccer and wish there was more available to watch.  I don’t run a media company.  I’m saying the decisions are being made based on dollars and cents.  The $$$ for the media company’s/networks does not justify the effort.  They are not altruistic, for the good of the people organizations.  These media companies are for profit, public companies and are concerned about share price, EBITDA, and generating new revenue streams.  The execs that run them want their bonuses, options, and to keep their jobs.  These companies are getting their margins trimmed by new media companies eating into traditional media, declining ad revenue, and viewership behavior.  If the return on investment is not there they are not putting money into it.


I hate to admit but I agree.  This is why I think all MLS teams should have a female side that plays before the men’s team.  I think that would help tremendously.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> I hate to admit but I agree.  This is why I think all MLS teams should have a female side that plays before the men’s team.  I think that would help tremendously.


Big brother taking care of little sister.  Instead, it's not that at all.  It's sad, BWCOMD?


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> You didnt answer my question.  How much Woobie?


Haha...I answered your question.  We spend too much.  It depends...we try to go to as many as we can.  Less travel is definitely better.  All about choices.  Spend as much or as little as you choose.  Everybody on here knows what a trip costs.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Haha...I answered your question.  We spend too much.  It depends...we try to go to as many as we can.  Less travel is definitely better.  All about choices.  Spend as much or as little as you choose.  Everybody on here knows what a trip costs.


No you didn;t.  I didnt ask if you spend too much woobie.  How much for the Woobie family?


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> You kid is 12!  You need a very High HS gpa along with excellent SATs.  Your kid already has these?  Or do you know Rick Singer?


Loose lips sink ships.  Game is to be sold, not to be told.  Maybe she’s already in?


----------



## Woobie06

MacDre said:


> I hate to admit but I agree.  This is why I think all MLS teams should have a female side that plays before the men’s team.  I think that would help tremendously.


I really like that idea.  A lot.  We go to a lot of LAFC games and my daughter loves the atmosphere.  They are a blast.  The supporters section is crazy fun to watch.  It would be cool to see the women play before.


----------



## dad4

Simisoccerfan said:


> You kid is 12!  You need a very High HS gpa along with excellent SATs.  Your kid already has these?  Or do you know Rick Singer?


There are 12 year olds who can ace the math section subject tests.  My college thesis reviewer got tenure at 26.   They exist.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> That was an incredible ride.  I have been reading and reading about D1 College Soccer being Under Threat for a LONG time (you all covered a shit-ton of ground in not that many days).  It made me think of the old NorCal board and the string about FC Elk Grove that went on for a couple of years (I had major surgery about 3 or 4 months into that thread and was completely out of pocket for two weeks (ICU, etc.) and commented when I came back that I was reassured that the string was continuing - never imagined it would go for years.  But this one . . . so many comments in such a short period of time.  As I went down the rabbit hole, I'd occasionally ping back to check my work email so I did not miss anything.
> 
> If we are going to look at D1 athletics only as a vehicle to professional $$$ (which, I think, may have been a point made back on page 2), then we can bag nearly all college sports, not just soccer.  All but football, men's basketball (which can be scaled back b/c the # of D1 players who play high level pro ball (say, NBA, Euro, even G league) is a relatively small percentage), baseball (again, small percentage) and maybe women's hoops.  Everything else . . . bag 'em!  The elite tennis players don't play college.  Swimming is kinda sorta required but the top, top level swimmers are starting to leave early (while I think Missy Franklin did all 4 years at Cal, I think Katie Ledecky only swam a couple at Stanford and I am not sure if Phelps ever swam collegiately).  Golf is still an area where guys play college before pro but they are not honing their game in college so let's bag that, too.
> 
> But the schools don't see it that way - they reap benefits even if the program loses money in direct revenues v costs - and the athletes certainly don't (or many don't) see it that way.  Getting in to schools that maybe would have chosen another with the same academic credentials, or having some relief in paying for school so that going to college w/o being crushed by debt, or just the intangibles for teamwork, creativity, discipline, etc. that come with being an athlete?  I'm glad my kid will be playing sports in college and won't face (or we won't face) a debt load when she's done.  I am glad she will have resources available to her as a student athlete that will give her the best chance to thrive in college (her choice in school was a direct reflection of the support she will get in academics - she saw that herself w/o any input from her parents).  A short-term career goal IS to play professionally (hell, doing that until you are in your mid-20s . . . that sounds awesome.  I was a school teacher out of college and did not do grad school until 27; if I were playing a sport in Europe rather than being in a classroom . . . sounds pretty great) and maybe to see whether her talent, the coaching and her dedication allows her to represent the country.  For her, as for most student athletes (since, like the ad says, most will be going pro in something else), playing for the school and the tradeoff of what the school provides will, hopefully, be worth it.  (some of the more veteran parents who are following this conversation, like @Simisoccerfan (whom I hope to meet when our kids face off if there is a women's soccer season), can say whether, for their kids, it has been "worth it").
> 
> (@MacDre - I have looked into the FIFA rules regarding repping countries and they are different than citizenship rules.  That is, each country can decide how it naturalizes citizens but FIFA decides who is eligible.  My wife holds dual citizenship with Ireland.  My kids are not eligible for the Irish national team automatically.  They may be in a different sport - the rules may differ by international governing body - but it would require certain steps to be eligible under FIFA rules.  Where it can help is playing professionally since my kids can get their Irish citizenship and being an EU citizen makes some of the administrative burdens much less for playing on a pro (club) team.  Not sure how Brexit will impact that for EU players in the UK, however).  And, as others have said, I'm really rooting for your kid - I root for all your kids to do well - and hope she gets the rewards she wants.  She sounds like a pretty incredible young person, lots of talent that goes way beyond soccer.  I love hearing about kids like that).


It seems to me that if your wife “registers” your kid as a British citizen before your kid turns 18, she’s eligible to play for Ireland under

The general principle, in Article 5.1, states: "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is *eligible*to play for the representative *teams* of the association of that country."

Also, looks like your kid will be tied to Ireland under the Home Nations Agreement.


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> It seems to me that if your wife “registers” your kid as a British citizen before your kid turns 18, she’s eligible to play for Ireland under
> 
> The general principle, in Article 5.1, states: "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is *eligible*to play for the representative *teams* of the association of that country."
> 
> Also, looks like your kid will be tied to Ireland under the Home Nations Agreement.


Ireland is not part of Great Britain (Northern Ireland is). But in her case, she’s been part of the YNT program (having competed at the u16 and u18 levels) that she will see where it goes. If she does want to play pro, it will be much better and easier if she can hold dual citizenship.


----------



## Kicknit22

I agree with you, investing in marketing would drive viewership.  I never said the product was subpar. 


Yeah, @Woobie06 , I didn’t mean to insinuate that you thought they were.  Just popping off.  I completely understand the realities and just don’t believe it has to be this way.  It takes someone or a few someone’s to roll the dice and show a belief.  I like the idea of a double header with the men. Could be a great first step.  But I can say with a fair amount of certainty, the Men (gutless pansies) would be so insanely threatened, it would cause an uproar.


----------



## Woobie06

Kicknit22 said:


> I agree with you, investing in marketing would drive viewership.  I never said the product was subpar.
> 
> 
> Yeah, @Woobie06 , I didn’t mean to insinuate that you thought they were.  Just popping off.  I completely understand the realities and just don’t believe it has to be this way.  It takes someone or a few someone’s to roll the dice and show a belief.  I like the idea of a double header with the men. Could be a great first step.  But I can say with a fair amount of certainty, the Men (gutless pansies) would be so insanely threatened, it would cause an uproar.


No worries, did not take it that way at all. I agree with you regarding the way it is. Lots of missed opportunities in many areas. One thing is for sure, there is no shortage of engaged parents on here supporting their kids and doing what is right by them. That’s an amazing thing and never gets old.

On a side note, I gotta admit it’s been nice not having to chauffeur the kids around town to practice, events, rehearsals, and everything else.  Its good to get a break now and again.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> It seems to me that if your wife “registers” your kid as a British citizen before your kid turns 18, she’s eligible to play for Ireland under
> 
> The general principle, in Article 5.1, states: "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is *eligible*to play for the representative *teams* of the association of that country."
> 
> Also, looks like your kid will be tied to Ireland under the Home Nations Agreement.



There you go finally did your research. 4 is an awesome amount of doorways


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> There you go finally did your research. 4 is an awesome amount of doorways


Hey coach, do you think we should have a 2% goat league for youths over 15 and 100% funded with a clear pathway for YNT and Pros with a right or left turn option for college?


----------



## Kicknit22

Woobie06 said:


> No worries, did not take it that way at all. I agree with you regarding the way it is. Lots of missed opportunities in many areas. One thing is for sure, there is no shortage of engaged parents on here supporting their kids and doing what is right by them. That’s an amazing thing and never gets old.
> 
> On a side note, I gotta admit it’s been nice not having to chauffeur the kids around town to practice, events, rehearsals, and everything else.  Its good to get a break now and again.


Yeah, kinda the silver lining of the whole thing.  Both my girls home, we’re all having a lot of fun that we otherwise might not.  Never played so much cards in my life!


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> There’s a girl on Cal’s roster that played in the Champions League prior to Cal







__





						NCAA.org - The Official Site of the NCAA
					






					www.ncaa.org
				



Don't know the particulars, but the rule exists.


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> I hate to admit but I agree.  This is why I think all MLS teams should have a female side that plays before the men’s team.  I think that would help tremendously.


Good idea, but I think they should switch off who plays first. Soccer is a relatively short game compared to football. If all games were double headers, there would be more time to sell concessions and beer.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Hey coach, do you think we should have a 2% goat league for youths over 15 and 100% funded with a clear pathway for YNT and Pros with a right or left turn option for college?



Nope.  They tried it and it did not work on the girls side.  It was called GDA.  It was not effective on the boys side either or at a minimum did not achieve its goals

I think MLS and USL have the perfect opportunity to build a true academy system on the boys side.  I wish the funding was there for an NWSL Academy on womens side but where does the money come from when the leagues are going to struggle to stay afloat.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Nope.  They tried it and it did not work on the girls side.  It was called GDA.  It was not effective on the boys side either or at a minimum did not achieve its goals
> 
> I think MLS and USL have the perfect opportunity to build a true academy system on the boys side.  I wish the funding was there for an NWSL Academy on womens side but where does the money come from when the leagues are going to struggle to stay afloat.


NWSL is a scam designed to save MLS money.  So people can sing the where’s the money gonna come from song.  All MLS teams need a women’s side.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Nope.  They tried it and it did not work on the girls side.  It was called GDA.


Coach, are you saying that league called the GDA, was a league of ONLY the top 2%-5%?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Coach, are you saying that league called the GDA, was a league of ONLY the top 2%-5%?


No I am saying that is what they sold it as.  We are a diverse and large country.  The top 2-5% is spread out so thin it is impossible to consolidate the squads.  You would need residence and school and infrastructure.  An 04 Keeper in Vegas, 04 Winger in San Diego, 04 Striker in OC, 04 Defender in PHX all in one place?  How?  Now the players mentioned are just random and not mentioning any one individual except for the 04 Keeper from Vegas (she is badass).  Even in the southwest which is one of the best regions for soccer talent it is so disperse.  Who funds it?   

@MacDre the MLS is going to struggle to survive for a bit how do you propose they fund the NWSL ( I agree women playing for men is a great idear).  Not every MLS club has NWSL.  The TV contracts of the MLS can not support the league much like the NBA  TV contract helps fund the WNBA.  I wish it were true but financially difficult unless you lower salaries for all across the board and the MLS CBA has not broken the MLS philosophy of closed market.  I know a player who played in Spain professionally.  She makes more a first year firefighter in Vegas.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> No I am saying that is what they sold it as.  We are a diverse and large country.  The top 2-5% is spread out so thin it is impossible to consolidate the squads.  You would need residence and school and infrastructure.  An 04 Keeper in Vegas, 04 Winger in San Diego, *04 Striker in OC*, 04 Defender in PHX all in one place?  How?  Now the players mentioned are just random and not mentioning any one individual except for the 04 Keeper from Vegas (she is badass).  Even in the southwest which is one of the best regions for soccer talent it is so disperse.  Who funds it?
> 
> @MacDre the MLS is going to struggle to survive for a bit how do you propose they fund the NWSL ( I agree women playing for men is a great idear).  Not every MLS club has NWSL.  The TV contracts of the MLS can not support the league much like the NBA  TV contract helps fund the WNBA.  I wish it were true but financially difficult unless you lower salaries for all across the board and the MLS CBA has not broken the MLS philosophy of closed market.  I know a player who played in Spain professionally.  She makes more a first year firefighter in Vegas.


First of all, the Keeper in Vegas is 100% badass and is the top GK according to my little one.  Dam, she stopped two opportunities from my goat when we played that Heat team.  I was trying to calm my little one down on the way home because she didn;t finish both shots and we tied again.  I think Vegas, Utah and AZ should have two teams combined.  It's more like maybe top 10% who think they can be top 2%.  Socal can have four teams. Norcal 2.  8 team league fully funded.  The rest play ECNL and GAL?  I know it will never happen but I think it would be cool to dream about.  The more girls playing soccer the better and I support the ECNL and the GAL.  Maybe just get the goats together more often and no more, "my league is better than your league."  Good talk coach


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> No I am saying that is what they sold it as.  We are a diverse and large country.  The top 2-5% is spread out so thin it is impossible to consolidate the squads.  You would need residence and school and infrastructure.  An 04 Keeper in Vegas, 04 Winger in San Diego, 04 Striker in OC, 04 Defender in PHX all in one place?  How?  Now the players mentioned are just random and not mentioning any one individual except for the 04 Keeper from Vegas (she is badass).  Even in the southwest which is one of the best regions for soccer talent it is so disperse.  Who funds it?
> 
> @MacDre the MLS is going to struggle to survive for a bit how do you propose they fund the NWSL ( I agree women playing for men is a great idear).  Not every MLS club has NWSL.  The TV contracts of the MLS can not support the league much like the NBA  TV contract helps fund the WNBA.  I wish it were true but financially difficult unless you lower salaries for all across the board and the MLS CBA has not broken the MLS philosophy of closed market.  I know a player who played in Spain professionally.  She makes more a first year firefighter in Vegas.


My logic is simple.  I would say most don’t get rich by being dumb.  So if you have smart rich investors paying over $300 million for a franchise fee for an MLS team, there’s money somewhere and lots of it.


----------



## MacDre

Ellejustus said:


> First of all, the Keeper in Vegas is 100% badass and is the top GK according to my little one.  Dam, she stopped two opportunities from my goat when we played that Heat team.  I was trying to calm my little one down on the way home because she didn;t finish both shots and we tied again.  I think Vegas, Utah and AZ should have two teams combined.  It's more like maybe top 10% who think they can be top 2%.  Socal can have four teams. Norcal 2.  8 team league fully funded.  The rest play ECNL and GAL?  I know it will never happen but I think it would be cool to dream about.  The more girls playing soccer the better and I support the ECNL and the GAL.  Maybe just get the goats together more often and no more, "my league is better than your league."  Good talk coach


Coach raises a valid issue regarding geography.  That’s why MLS needs to step up so those widely dispersed top %10 would be developed by the pro team in their region.  U15 to first train together.  Simple.  Not rocket science folks.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> My logic is simple.  I would say most don’t get rich by being dumb.  So if you have smart rich investors paying over $300 million for a franchise fee for an MLS team, there’s money somewhere and lots of it.


If the investment was sound there would be more of it.  Women get a bump in interest right after WWC and then it fades and then bumps and fades.  It is sad.  Look the Glaziers are struggling to maintain WMNU and their club is worth billions.   I am not saying groups should not do it.  I wish they would.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> Coach raises a valid issue regarding geography.  That’s why MLS needs to step up so those widely dispersed top %10 would be developed by the pro team in their region.  U15 to first train together.  Simple.  Not rocket science folks.


I agree with both of you btw


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> First of all, the Keeper in Vegas is 100% badass and is the top GK according to my little one.


Vegas is the old USA of the 80's and 90's.  We seem to build badass keepers JB is one of many.  They seem to come from the same keeper coach lately.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Vegas is the old USA of the 80's and 90's.  We seem to build badass keepers JB is one of many.  They seem to come from the same keeper coach lately.


I'm more impressed with her being a great kid, roll model, student, great parents and one badass GK.  That right there will take you far.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> I'm more impressed with her being a great kid, roll model, student, great parents and one badass GK. That right there will take you far.


All so true and a great family on top of it.  USC is lucky to get her.  Her and my son train together, root for each other and support each other.

@MacDre and she is the reason college needs soccer.  Her parents are both D1 College athletes I believe also.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> All so true and a great family on top of it.  USC is lucky to get her.  Her and my son train together, root for each other and support each other.
> 
> @MacDre and she is the reason college needs soccer.  Her parents are both D1 College athletes I believe also.


I think in the old system, JB is everything 99% of the parents and coaches wanted from club, which was a D1 deal.  That is awesome and I love!!!.  I'm not trying to put down college.  Please, understand, I love college and college sports.  However, for a select few like a JB or an 04' winger in LA, let them have a pathway outside of college if they so choose.  JB is a lot like my dd probably and loves school and all the social stuff with being on a team.  If my dd had the choice ((a big if too)), she would pick college.  I'm just not sure we will win as a country and that has always been what I'm about.  I want country to win first and then my dd.


----------



## Luis Andres

Ellejustus said:


> She's a stud, ((yes, I've seen her play and @Luis Andres #2 has some work today if wants to go pro too)) like my kid and other kids like OM and AT, and AC, SS, MP and all the other greats.  2%ters are what their called and his goat is obviously one them.  He's a smart dad.  Question dads: Who would put their top player goat through this meat grinder in Socal?  This is appalling and disturbing all in one and I'm embarrassed I spent so much time and money sometimes.  Let's applaud the Lad and his dd for wanting to go pro.  Go Pro all the way!!!!


since you called me out, I’m using my last post I had free this month for the covid19 free post forum fund. While he’s right in saying that most 12 year old studs don’t equate to being studs later. There is a lot more that has to do with the mental aspect of the player after that age that determines how far they may get aside from all the talent. For me, identifying talent in young ages comes down to their natural ability to move and also control the ball. Can they move well at young ages is key & with soccer speed. Do they have impressive accelerations and decelerations ? etc. My DD has become very technical for her age, she’s developed from a possession background but she has always moved well and she’s always had soccer speed. Trust me if she did not have the physical abilities that she has accompanied with the enthusiasm to train, I wouldn’t be wasting my time. Now the puberty part. Well if she ends up like her mom then it will not be a problem later... She should keep her athleticism. They have the same body type... no big hips, no big breasts to get in the way... super athletic.

To answer your question. My mom is not as athletic as my wife but she does not have big breasts or wide hips either. My daughter has my wife’s body and athleticism. Perks of a platinum member even when I’ve ran out of posts for the month.






Mom:


----------



## Ellejustus

Luis Andres said:


> since you called me out, I’m using my last post I had free this month. While he’s right in saying that most 12 year old studs don’t equate to being studs later. There is a lot more that has to do with the mental aspect of the player after that age that determines how far they may get aside from all the talent. For me, identifying talent in young ages comes down to their natural ability to move. Can they move well at young ages is key. Do they have soccer speed? etc. My DD has become very technical for her age, she’s developed from a possession background but she has always moved well and she’s always had soccer speed. Trust me if she did not have the physical abilities that she has, I wouldn’t be wasting my time. Now the puberty part. Well if she ends up like her mom then it will not be a problem later...They have the same body type... no big hips, no big breasts to get in the way... super athletic


What about your mom bro?  That matters in some DNA girls I was told.  May begins in a two days so do i have to wait for a reply bro?  BTW, nice foot work.  Way a head of my goat when she was younger.  My buddy told me_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-and that's all they look at!!!


----------



## Firmino9

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


----------



## Firmino9

MacDre said:


> I think I’d be okay if college soccer disappeared forever because I do not see the benefit.  The games are not entertaining.  The style of play is not good for development.  Most people on this forum openly admit that it’s about the university and not soccer so, those folks can play club soccer in college and focus on academics.
> Also, MLS/NWSL would be forced to figure out a better development pathway for kids who’s priority is soccer if college soccer goes away.  Could someone please tell why loosing college soccer is a bad thing?  Are people just scared of change?


Is this a real person or a troll?  For almost all girls , college soccer is the pinnacle ,  not too mention the education , leadership, and lifelong relationships.   Sorry to burst your bubble but If you aren’t on the national team you aren’t making money in women’s soccer. Most players will go play a couple of years after to say they did it.. clubs will provide them a place to stay and minimal stuff to live on.. hardly a “pro”.  In all honesty ... how many American men are going pro and having careers?  An MLS avg career is 3 years and those guys aren’t getting rich... we don’t have enough success stories in Europe yet to say we have a legit pathway to pro over there.  Not trying to be mean but this is an incredibly uninformed post


----------



## vegasguy

Firmino9 said:


> Is this a real person or a troll?  For almost all girls , college soccer is the pinnacle ,  not too mention the education , leadership, and lifelong relationships.   Sorry to burst your bubble but If you aren’t on the national team you aren’t making money in women’s soccer. Most players will go play a couple of years after to say they did it.. clubs will provide them a place to stay and minimal stuff to live on.. hardly a “pro”.  In all honesty ... how many American men are going pro and having careers?  An MLS avg career is 3 years and those guys aren’t getting rich... we don’t have enough success stories in Europe yet to say we have a legit pathway to pro over there.  Not trying to be mean but this is an incredibly uninformed post


an alter ego and not mine but what else do we have to do.


----------



## JumboJack

Firmino9 said:


> Is this a real person or a troll?  *For almost all girls , college soccer is the pinnacle* ,  not too mention the education , leadership, and lifelong relationships.   Sorry to burst your bubble but If you aren’t on the national team you aren’t making money in women’s soccer. Most players will go play a couple of years after to say they did it.. clubs will provide them a place to stay and minimal stuff to live on.. hardly a “pro”.  In all honesty ... how many American men are going pro and having careers?  An MLS avg career is 3 years and those guys aren’t getting rich... we don’t have enough success stories in Europe yet to say we have a legit pathway to pro over there.  Not trying to be mean but this is an incredibly uninformed post


I agree 100%.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> an alter ego and not mine but what else do we have to do.


I stop reading threads when the inputs become dominated by attention-seeking trolls.


----------



## espola

Firmino9 said:


> Is this a real person or a troll?  For almost all girls , college soccer is the pinnacle ,  not too mention the education , leadership, and lifelong relationships.   Sorry to burst your bubble but If you aren’t on the national team you aren’t making money in women’s soccer. Most players will go play a couple of years after to say they did it.. clubs will provide them a place to stay and minimal stuff to live on.. hardly a “pro”.  In all honesty ... how many American men are going pro and having careers?  An MLS avg career is 3 years and those guys aren’t getting rich... we don’t have enough success stories in Europe yet to say we have a legit pathway to pro over there.  Not trying to be mean but this is an incredibly uninformed post


Boys, too.  Youth players can see members of their club or high school older teams who become college and pro players and try to follow their development pathways.  Almost any serious youth player can make a HS team, after which the stepping-stone become college recruiting contacts, college play (perhaps with scholarship money), pro tryouts, and making a pro team.  How far up the ladder can you get?


----------



## Ellejustus

JumboJack said:


> I agree 100%.


I agree 100% too.  The troll and I are trolling for a pro pathway for girls instead of 99% with college goal oriented players who want to be a nurse.  I love nurses too.  My mother in law is a nurse.


----------



## MacDre

Firmino9 said:


> Is this a real person or a troll?  For almost all girls , college soccer is the pinnacle ,  not too mention the education , leadership, and lifelong relationships.   Sorry to burst your bubble but If you aren’t on the national team you aren’t making money in women’s soccer. Most players will go play a couple of years after to say they did it.. clubs will provide them a place to stay and minimal stuff to live on.. hardly a “pro”.  In all honesty ... how many American men are going pro and having careers?  An MLS avg career is 3 years and those guys aren’t getting rich... we don’t have enough success stories in Europe yet to say we have a legit pathway to pro over there.  Not trying to be mean but this is an incredibly uninformed post


As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.  The USWNT is the pinnacle to success loser.  If your kid doesn’t make it, it’s time to move on to something that you’re are talented in.
Receiving the second place trophy of college soccer while pretending that they are soccer players instead of focusing on education and career is the pinnacle of stupidity my friend.

I asked a Power 5 coach what he hated most about his job.  His response was all the spoiled entitled young adults that they have to bench for the first time because their parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players.

If you’re concerned about relationships, I think you’ll have more opportunities for relationships by playing club and joining a sorority/fraternity.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> I agree 100% too.  The troll and I are trolling for a pro pathway for girls instead of 99% with college goal oriented players who want to be a nurse.  I love nurses too.  My mother in law is a nurse.


I went down the rabbit hole too.  Do what we all do.  Focus on school and grades.   college because although the world needs ditch diggers too (line from Caddyshack) you do not want you player to be one of them.  It does not matter at what level.  If she is D1 and starts her freshman year begin to dream of a pro opportunity.  There are no pro's at 12 not even at La Masia.   
or find your own pathway. 

I am focused on zoom meetings, phone calls and hopefully ID camps in the coming days, weeks and months.  I hope that more college programs do not go the route of the BearCats and Crusaders and Lobos.  I will take 4more years of watching my son play any level than having it end in 365days.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.  The USWNT is the pinnacle to success loser.  If your kid doesn’t make it, it’s time to move on to something that you’re are talented in.
> Receiving the second place trophy of college soccer while pretending that they are soccer players instead of focusing on education and career is the pinnacle of stupidity my friend.
> 
> I asked a Power 5 coach what he hated most about his job.  His response was all the spoiled entitled young adults that they have to bench for the first time because their parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players.
> 
> If you’re concerned about relationships, I think you’ll have more opportunities for relationships by playing club and joining a sorority/fraternity.



says the poor oppressed guy who says his daughter is in private school in her dad's ivory tower. 
Scholarships for athletics and academics are earned not given.  Unless you are a crew member sort of at USC. 
It is funny you think college soccer players come from rich families.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> I went down the rabbit hole too.  Do what we all do.  Focus on school and grades.   college because although the world needs ditch diggers too (line from Caddyshack) you do not want you player to be one of them.  It does not matter at what level.  If she is D1 and starts her freshman year begin to dream of a pro opportunity.  There are no pro's at 12 not even at La Masia.
> or find your own pathway.
> 
> I am focused on zoom meetings, phone calls and hopefully ID camps in the coming days, weeks and months.  I hope that more college programs do not go the route of the BearCats and Crusaders and Lobos.  I will take 4more years of watching my son play any level than having it end in 365days.


"I graduated from UC" is a good start in an initial interview, but they hear a lot of that. "And I played four years as a starter on the soccer team" puts your resume in the interesting pile.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> says the poor oppressed guy who says his daughter is in private school in her dad's ivory tower.
> Scholarships for athletics and academics are earned not given.  Unless you are a crew member sort of at USC.
> It is funny you think college soccer players come from rich families.


To be fair to USC, the crew deal was for admission, not scholarship, and the position was as a coxswain, for whom the only requirements are light weight, a good sense of rhythm, and knowing how to swim.


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> "I graduated from UC" is a good start in an initial interview, but they hear a lot of that. "And I played four years as a starter on the soccer team" puts your resume in the interesting pile.


In my office, the resumes of soccer players go in the garbage because most only went to college for the experience.  I prefer those that were developed in cutthroat environments while aiming for the pros.  I prefer employees that have a win or die mentality-who wants an employee that doesn’t want to win and just wants the experience and a t-shirt? No thanks!


----------



## Ellejustus

98% play for college coach and I support that if that's what its about for all of you. I also know a few guys who hated HS School and quit and became electrician, plumber and contractor. One "ditch digger" I know is a millionaire. He started digging for gold for another owner and he decided he could dig it himself one day. Today, he is worth millions. The trade is a great way to make $100,000+ with out owning $100,000 in student debt and no job. The world is changing coach


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> In my office, the resumes of soccer players go in the garbage because most only went to college for the experience.  I prefer those that were developed in cutthroat environments while aiming for the pros.  I prefer employees that have a win or die mentality-who wants an employee that doesn’t want to win and just wants the experience and a t-shirt? No thanks!


I was going to respond with "clueless" but then I realized it is just one of the trolls.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> says the poor oppressed guy who says his daughter is in private school in her dad's ivory tower.
> Scholarships for athletics and academics are earned not given.  Unless you are a crew member sort of at USC.
> It is funny you think college soccer players come from rich families.


I wish I was as rich as you and could afford the basics in the USA.  Unfortunately my kid is stuck doing the best that she can going to a school that operates from parent donations-how elitist of you to call my kids school private.


----------



## Ellejustus

MacDre said:


> As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.  The USWNT is the pinnacle to success loser.  If your kid doesn’t make it, it’s time to move on to something that you’re are talented in.
> Receiving the second place trophy of college soccer while pretending that they are soccer players instead of focusing on education and career is the pinnacle of stupidity my friend.
> 
> I asked a Power 5 coach what he hated most about his job.  His response was all the spoiled entitled young adults that they have to bench for the first time because their parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players.
> 
> If you’re concerned about relationships, I think you’ll have more opportunities for relationships by playing club and joining a sorority/fraternity.


At least "Macdre the troll" has been around when I came on the scene back in July.  This guy just signed up to be a member of the socal forum.  You guys, this is a great debate about the top 2% of the US soccer players and should they be lobbied and sold college. We can't have little Sally or Timmy digging a ditch for a living.  Man or man, we need Mike Rowe to help some of you.  So much we have to change here.  College or bust and most parents live their lives in fear that their kid will become a ditch digger.  Learn how to juggle a soccer ball and get into a great school.  OK!!!


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.


 Nonsense old chap.  You're just miffed that your daughter still can't beat mine in the 12 meter sailing regatta.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Nonsense old chap.  You're just miffed that your daughter still can't beat mine in the 12 meter sailing regatta.



Do they still race 12 meter yachts?  The Olympic classes top out at 470.  Collegiate sail racing is limited to dinghys that are cheap and transportable, although there are still some traditional east coast head-to-head or small regatta races where the teams sail their big boats to the race.  Who wouldn't want to see MIT versus Navy?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> 98% play for college coach and I support that if that's what its about for all of you. I also know a few guys who hated HS School and quit and became electrician, plumber and contractor. One "ditch digger" I know is a millionaire. He started digging for gold for another owner and he decided he could dig it himself one day. Today, he is worth millions. The trade is a great way to make $100,000+ with out owning $100,000 in student debt and no job. The world is changing coach


Never said college is the only way to go.  I respect the trades.  They do things I can not and they earn their income too.  Especially in Vegas.  I do not want to be working asphalt in the summer in Vegas.  Remember @MacDre thinks I am rich.  I know wealthy guys who started a small trade company and now could buy and sell me 10x over.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I wish I was as rich as you and could afford the basics in the USA.  Unfortunately my kid is stuck doing the best that she can going to a school that operates from parent donations-how elitist of you to call my kids school private.


Says the guy who took his daughter to Lyon to watch a WWC game.  I can't afford that flight and stay for a soccer match.   
Elitist and Rich... should I be offended or complimented?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> At least "Macdre the troll" has been around when I came on the scene back in July.  This guy just signed up to be a member of the socal forum.  You guys, this is a great debate about the top 2% of the US soccer players and should they be lobbied and sold college. We can't have little Sally or Timmy digging a ditch for a living.  Man or man, we need Mike Rowe to help some of you.  So much we have to change here.  College or bust and most parents live their lives in fear that their kid will become a ditch digger.  Learn how to juggle a soccer ball and get into a great school.  OK!!!


It was a line from Caddyshack  you know Judge Smells


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Never said college is the only way to go.  I respect the trades.  They do things I can not and they earn their income too.  Especially in Vegas.  I do not want to be working asphalt in the summer in Vegas.  Remember @MacDre thinks I am rich.  I know wealthy guys who started a small trade company and now could buy and sell me 10x over.


I know you didn't, but it was taught to all of us to go to college or you fail.  Everyone in girls soccer tell the girls they have to go to college to continue at the highest level in the USA.  That is dangerous and we will lose with that ego.  The girls are catching up around the world because the men finally allowed them to play soccer and not be forced to be a wife and bare children for the King.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I wish I was as rich as you and could afford the basics in the USA.  Unfortunately my kid is stuck doing the best that she can going to a school that operates from parent donations-how elitist of you to call my kids school private.


Don't get your feels all boiled over.  I took your advice.  Walked right up to my son and said your soccer carrier is over today.  You are not good enough to be a pro and well college soccer is just not good so I can not stand to watch you play anymore.  Focus on something your good at like NBA2K.   He logged off his online class and picked up the remote.  I found a coach for private lesson on NBA2K.
Then I quit coaching.  I am never going to produce a Hope Solo or Mia Hamm so why should I coach. Yeah i may get a couple kids college opportunities but that isn't very good so i concede.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Don't get your feels all boiled over.  I took your advice.  Walked right up to my son and said your soccer carrier is over today.  You are not good enough to be a pro and well college soccer is just not good so I can not stand to watch you play anymore.  Focus on something your good at like NBA2K.   He logged off his online class and picked up the remote.  I found a coach for private lesson on NBA2K.
> Then I quit coaching.  I am never going to produce a Hope Solo or Mia Hamm so why should I coach. Yeah i may get a couple kids college opportunities but that isn't very good so i concede.


It's great what you do coach.  Helping all kids get into college.  I think we need a pro pathway asap and then the others can go for college like the Morris kid up North.  Men's soccer is bad and I mean bad.  We talk about the girls hear all the time and the only time we talk about men's soccer is how come we din;t advance to world cup.  The DA destroyed the men's game too.  What a waste of money and resources.  This was one big business move and it failed.  Time for someone else to come up with a better plan.  College can be in the plan but it can;t be, The Plan for 100%.  That has not produced a winner for the men so that plan sucks!!!  New plan?  The world is watching, the girls will lose if we don't fix things quickly imo.  I hope I'm wrong....


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Do they still race 12 meter yachts?  The Olympic classes top out at 470.  Collegiate sail racing is limited to dinghys that are cheap and transportable, although there are still some traditional east coast head-to-head or small regatta races where the teams sail their big boats to the race.  Who wouldn't want to see MIT versus Navy?


Do they still race?  Pah!  The bloody virus has it all delayed, of course.  Nevertheless, I have a strong feeling Lottie will win it all next year in Helsinki.

https://12mrworlds.com/


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Do they still race?  Pah!  The bloody virus has it all delayed, of course.  Nevertheless, I have a strong feeling Lottie will win it all next year in Helsinki.
> 
> https://12mrworlds.com/


I have seen 12-meter yachts up close on display and on the water in San Diego.  I think you need at least 6 people just to get away from the dock, not including a towboat (unless they have installed a disqualifying auxiliary motor).  I have crewed on a 470 and came home with bruises all over my body.  The first time the boat kicked up on a crosswind plane the owner/skipper looked at me with a big smile and shouted "Don't move - Hold that position!"


----------



## CaliKlines

Kicknit22 said:


> Cal coach is wrong. A pro contract is a pro contract. Doesn’t matter what amount.  Same as NCAA eligibility guidlines.  Player cannot have EVER received compensation for playing at any time.


#14 on NC State roster played in UEFA Champions League for AC Sparta Prague. Even mentions it in her bio.


----------



## Ellejustus

espola said:


> I have seen 12-meter yachts up close on display and on the water in San Diego.  I think you need at least 6 people just to get away from the dock, not including a towboat (unless they have installed a disqualifying auxiliary motor).  I have crewed on a 470 and came home with bruises all over my body.  The first time the boat kicked up on a crosswind plane the owner/skipper looked at me with a big smile and shouted "Don't move - Hold that position!"


----------



## youthsportsugh

MacDre said:


> Valid point.  However, I think Smith should’ve had the opportunity to go pro at 15.  She would’ve still had Stanford as an option if things weren’t working out around 20.


Then she is paying for Stanford which I don't think is all that inexpensive!  I personally would love for my kid to play D1 and she wants to.  It is extremely rigorous to play a D1 sport and maintain the academic side of things, however now a days schools do a pretty good job of trying to get the academic side handled especially for the women. The Varsity sport v Club sport aren't even close to one another.  If she doesn't get a Varsity shot I would want her to play Club if she would want that.  All I really want though is for her to be challenged enough that she wants to continue playing until she is old and grey! If you are the top of the top for a team sport athlete you better also look the part.  Alex Morgan 250K salary and 5 Million in endorsements, that is great gig if you can get it! Not sure where forbes pulled that salary from and I couldn't find good numbers for international.

Really its up to the Girl/family and in that order (hopefully they work well together).  Here is hoping noone gets hurt from all the training done.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Do they still race?  Pah!  The bloody virus has it all delayed, of course.  Nevertheless, I have a strong feeling Lottie will win it all next year in Helsinki.
> 
> https://12mrworlds.com/


----------



## youthsportsugh

CaliKlines said:


> #14 on NC State roster played in UEFA Champions League for AC Sparta Prague. Even mentions it in her bio.


Is it possible she didn't get paid?  I thought the NCAA wouldn't allow a person to play a sport in college if they had been paid professionally no matter the sport. Paid for skiing couldn't play football.


----------



## MacDre

youthsportsugh said:


> Is it possible she didn't get paid?  I thought the NCAA wouldn't allow a person to play a sport in college if they had been paid professionally no matter the sport. Paid for skiing couldn't play football.


They are allowed to pay reasonable expenses and what constitutes reasonable expenses is debatable.  However, I was under the impression that California kinda punked the NCAA into changing the rules regarding college athletes not getting paid.


----------



## youthsportsugh

MacDre said:


> They are allowed to pay reasonable expenses and what constitutes reasonable expenses is debatable.  However, I was under the impression that California kinda punked the NCAA into changing the rules regarding college athletes not getting paid.


If Cal was able to punk the NCAA that would be impressive


----------



## MacDre

youthsportsugh said:


> If Cal was able to punk the NCAA that would be impressive


No, the state of California...



			Redirect Notice


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> I have seen 12-meter yachts up close on display and on the water in San Diego.  I think you need at least 6 people just to get away from the dock, not including a towboat (unless they have installed a disqualifying auxiliary motor).  I have crewed on a 470 and came home with bruises all over my body.  The first time the boat kicked up on a crosswind plane the owner/skipper looked at me with a big smile and shouted "Don't move - Hold that position!"


If you can't afford a crew so your dear daughter can race, maybe you need to pay more attention to your portfolio.  


Yes, the whole thing is absurd.  Yacht racing is not an individual sport.  On the other hand, neither is soccer, but plenty of people treat it as such.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.  The USWNT is the pinnacle to success loser.  If your kid doesn’t make it, it’s time to move on to something that you’re are talented in.
> Receiving the second place trophy of college soccer while pretending that they are soccer players instead of focusing on education and career is the pinnacle of stupidity my friend.
> 
> I asked a Power 5 coach what he hated most about his job.  His response was all the spoiled entitled young adults that they have to bench for the first time because their parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players.
> 
> If you’re concerned about relationships, I think you’ll have more opportunities for relationships by playing club and joining a sorority/fraternity.


Whoa there, cowboy.  "parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players"?  Listen, Coach Cromwell, if there's a shithead on your bench there's no need to look any further than the closest mirror.  Girls break their fucking balls to get a look at a college soccer team and now it's "pinnacle of rich kid entitlement"?  A very small population are on the SingerFitFinder.com program.  The rest of them start making incredible sacrifices at a very early age and it doesn't stop.  Money or no bullshit... that's bullshit to drop "entitlement" like that.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> I have seen 12-meter yachts up close on display and on the water in San Diego.  I think you need at least 6 people just to get away from the dock, not including a towboat (unless they have installed a disqualifying auxiliary motor).  I have crewed on a 470 and came home with bruises all over my body.  The first time the boat kicked up on a crosswind plane the owner/skipper looked at me with a big smile and shouted "Don't move - Hold that position!"


It is so fun to watch.  I used to watch the America's Cup in the 90's.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> No, the state of California...
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


It hasn't taken hold yet and it's going to cause a whole bunch of problems.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> It hasn't taken hold yet and it's going to cause a whole bunch of problems.


What kind of problems do you foresee?


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> It's great what you do coach.  Helping all kids get into college.  I think we need a pro pathway asap and then the others can go for college like the Morris kid up North.  Men's soccer is bad and I mean bad.  We talk about the girls hear all the time and the only time we talk about men's soccer is how come we din;t advance to world cup.  The DA destroyed the men's game too.  What a waste of money and resources.  This was one big business move and it failed.  Time for someone else to come up with a better plan.  College can be in the plan but it can;t be, The Plan for 100%.  That has not produced a winner for the men so that plan sucks!!!  New plan?  The world is watching, the girls will lose if we don't fix things quickly imo.  I hope I'm wrong....



nope I jumped on the college soccer is a waste bandwagon.   My son is done because it is bad and I mean bad.. and the girls game... it should be pro or go home... why even have youth leagues because at 12 my kid was definitely not cutting it.  I should have switched then.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> What kind of problems do you foresee?


SEC is the only one that can truly pay talent at a high level and they are not in CA for one.   It tips the talent to one or two conferences for two  (@MacDre is so on board with this).... allows booster access which leads to Armon Gilliam in a hot tub with known game fixer and Larry Johnson from dirty poor Texas driving a Corvette to Shark's after a loss... goes against everything Title IX stands for as there will not be a paycheck for women field hockey players... those are just the starting thoughts... but it is ok because we need to get rid of it all anyway.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> It is so fun to watch.  I used to watch the America's Cup in the 90's.


What made yacht racing for me was the 12-meter races in Australia when Dennis Conner brought back the Cup, what with the on-board cameras, helicopter views, and good analytical commentary.  Up until then I had seen sailboats as kind of like floating campers.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> What kind of problems do you foresee?


I don't think you can pay student athletes in CA and not everywhere else.  The NCAA isn't going to allow that.  I'm not a proponent of paying them anyway but, if you're going to, seems problematic to me if that policy isn't universal.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> What made yacht racing for me was the 12-meter races in Australia when Dennis Conner brought back the Cup, what with the on-board cameras, helicopter views, and good analytical commentary.  Up until then I had seen sailboats as kind of like floating campers.


Did you see the movie Wind... not like breaking wind but it was called Wind with Jennifer Grey and Matthew Modine...  I love the science behind the sport.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> SEC is the only one that can truly pay talent at a high level and they are not in CA for one.   It tips the talent to one or two conferences for two  (@MacDre is so on board with this).... allows booster access which leads to Armon Gilliam in a hot tub with known game fixer and Larry Johnson from dirty poor Texas driving a Corvette to Shark's after a loss... goes against everything Title IX stands for as there will not be a paycheck for women field hockey players... those are just the starting thoughts... but it is ok because we need to get rid of it all anyway.


I loved that team btw.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> nope I jumped on the college soccer is a waste bandwagon.   My son is done because it is bad and I mean bad.. and the girls game... it should be pro or go home... why even have youth leagues because at 12 my kid was definitely not cutting it.  I should have switched then.


Back in days when I was a young lad, I recall telling an elder about my wants.  They laughed and said son “people in hell want ice water” and nobody cares about what you want.  Study hard because once you earn an education no one can take it from you.


vegasguy said:


> Did you see the movie Wind... not like breaking wind but it was called Wind with Jennifer Grey and Matthew Modine...  I love the science behind the sport.


 I always avoided sailing because I have a family full of fishermen and I didn’t want to get put to work.  If anyone goes to the Bahamas for vacation sailing lessons are free on my Island for kids under 16.  Disney is building a resort too.


----------



## Ellejustus

Ok, the social experience is over for this lad. I see with my ears and I hear with my eyes.  It's a unique gift set I have.  I love college sports and I want all of your dd to go and play if that's what they want.  Let's keep college soccer alive and well


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> Did you see the movie Wind... not like breaking wind but it was called Wind with Jennifer Grey and Matthew Modine...  I love the science behind the sport.


I took sailing lessons while in the Navy in the Philippines, and then in the 80's in San Diego.  A group at work started renting boats big enough to spend Saturday night anchored down off the Coronado Islands in a happy time when you didn't need a Mexican fishing license.  Aside from the skin diving in the almost untouched bottom near the islands, there was always something new and interesting to see - the boat was followed by a shark one time, and two gray whales came over to look at us one day.  There was one summer when the surface water temp got up to tropical levels, so there were flying fish and pelagic craps all over the surface, just a mile or so off the San Diego beaches.  We took one 10-day trip in a 41-foot up along the Channel Islands, stopping at Catalina going up and back and anchoring at three different sites at Santa Cruz Island for a couple of days each.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> But they can receive reasonable  expenses and what constitutes reasonable expenses is debatable.


No, they cannot. Not sure where you found that language written anywhere.


----------



## Kicknit22

CaliKlines said:


> #14 on NC State roster played in UEFA Champions League for AC Sparta Prague. Even mentions it in her bio.


Well smack my ass and call me Susan!  Are there bylaws that allow for foreign pro contracts?  My older daughter had an opportunity to play in Italy out of HS, but passed.  Didn’t think of asking about relinquished amateur status, since she really never considered it.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> No, they cannot. Not sure where you found that language written anywhere.


The plain language of the rule doesn’t prohibit paying reasonable expenses it prohibits paying compensation.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> The plain language of the rule doesn’t prohibit paying reasonable expenses it prohibits paying compensation.


Hmmm, okay.  What do I know? Carry on.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Hmmm, okay.  What do I know? Carry on.


Please elaborate.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> The plain language of the rule doesn’t prohibit paying reasonable expenses it prohibits paying compensation.


What do you consider "reasonable expenses" here?


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Please elaborate.


Elaborate how?  All I’ve ever known, since I myself was an amateur, is that you cannot accept any money whatsoever, period.  Doesn’t make any sense that a girl signed a professional contract, yet was able to compete as an amateur at N.C. State.  Loop holes I’ve never heard existed.  Surprises the hell out of me.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> What do you consider "reasonable expenses"
> It’s debatable and case specific.  In essence, you have to show your actions are reasonable under your specific circumstances.  There’s a little wiggle room.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Elaborate how?  All I’ve ever known, since I myself was an amateur, is that you cannot accept any money whatsoever, period.  Doesn’t make any sense that a girl signed a professional contract, yet was able to compete as an amateur at N.C. State.  Loop holes I’ve never heard existed.  Surprises the hell out of me.


Not a loophole reasonable expenses are not prohibited.  Read the rule.  If the smart folks that drafted the rule wanted to include reasonable expenses they could have.  They chose only to prohibit compensation.


----------



## Woobie06

Kicknit22 said:


> Elaborate how?  All I’ve ever known, since I myself was an amateur, is that you cannot accept any money whatsoever, period.  Doesn’t make any sense that a girl signed a professional contract, yet was able to compete as an amateur at N.C. State.  Loop holes I’ve never heard existed.  Surprises the hell out of me.


There are kids that play minor league baseball for a few years than end up playing college football.  Oldest one I can remember is Chris Wienke...dude was a 30 yr old NFL Rookie when he left Florida State.  No idea what the loophole is, but some kids find a way.


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Not a loophole reasonable expenses are not prohibited.  Read the rule.  If the smart folks that drafted the rule wanted to include reasonable expenses they could have.  They chose only to prohibit compensation.


Okay, to me, that’s a loop hole or a work around at the very least.


----------



## Kicknit22

Woobie06 said:


> There are kids that play minor league baseball for a few years than end up playing college football.  Oldest one I can remember is Chris Wienke...dude was a 30 yr old NFL Rookie when he left Florida.  No idea what the loophole is, but some kids find a way.


I referred to this much earlier in the conversation.  I pointed out that you only lose amateur status in the sport you sign a pro contract in.  Or accept money for.


----------



## Woobie06

Kicknit22 said:


> I referred to this much earlier in the conversation.  I pointed out that you only lose amateur status in the sport you sign a pro contract in.  Or accept money for.


----------



## vegasguy

Woobie06 said:


> There are kids that play minor league baseball for a few years than end up playing college football.  Oldest one I can remember is Chris Wienke...dude was a 30 yr old NFL Rookie when he left Florida State.  No idea what the loophole is, but some kids find a way.


Russell Wilson..


----------



## neverplanned4soccer

Ellejustus said:


> I think small private D1 colleges have way more flexibility and stand to gain in the new way.  It's a great way to grow the sport through private funding and not tax dollars and it allows the girls to play past HS and club.


And, where exactly is that private funding coming from?


----------



## dk_b

The Outlaw said:


> It hasn't taken hold yet and it's going to cause a whole bunch of problems.


NCAA is going to allow payment under similar circumstances (use of name, likeness, etc).









						College Athletes Are Now Closer To Getting Paid After NCAA Board OKs Plan
					

The change could be in place by the 2021-22 school year, as the NCAA backs measures that would let student-athletes be paid for their name, image and likeness.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> Also an easy answer for British/Americans.  I’m British therefore my kid is British.


I thought you said your grandmother was a slave - how did you jump to England?


----------



## Ellejustus

neverplanned4soccer said:


> And, where exactly is that private funding coming from?


You?  I know some parents who would sponsor a goat so they can get their dd into the school and be a part of the soccer program.  It's called a win, win


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> You?  I know some parents who would sponsor a goat so they can get their dd into the school and be a part of the soccer program.  It's called a win, win


No it is called investment .  It is how pro golfers start.  They get a group of rich country club members pony up travel fees, entry fees, and expenses.  In return they get a percentage of the tournamen income including endorsement income for a certain period of time.  It bankrupts pros that do not make it.  You want to put your daughter thru this?


----------



## vegasguy

Plus college soccer is for fools.  Right @MacDre .  Go straight pro.  
My son had his first NBA2K private last night.  The coach thinks if he plays with the Sixers squad he could be as good as Patrick Beverly.  I AM ALL IN


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> No it is called investment .  It is how pro golfers start.  They get a group of rich country club members pony up travel fees, entry fees, and expenses.  In return they get a percentage of the tournamen income including endorsement income for a certain period of time.  It bankrupts pros that do not make it.  You want to put your daughter thru this?


Here lies my problem coach.  Some coaches preach "scholarship" and a naive parent equals that to a full ride.  That's on me, but it's how some minds work.  So you get to the place your kid is a Jr and you find out those don;t come around often. You get a reality check about Cali schools as well.  You see opportunities in humid and hot places or cold and freezing places around the country, but that's hard sell for some Cali girls who like the beach. My research tells me many Cali girls get home sick and transfer or quit as Fr ((not all)).  I know one girl who took a full ride on the East Coast instead of 25% on the West Coast.  Parents have bank, but the girl wanted to get away and go to college.  Fast forward to Fall practice and she's calling dad crying because her pigtails are frozen and she can't hang at practice and wants to come home.  That is a true story coach.  Or, how about___________________________________________________________________________________Not all the stories are good coach.  That's why the recruiting stopped for 7th graders and now they can;t talk until Jr year


----------



## MacDre

Soccer43 said:


> I thought you said your grandmother was a slave - how did you jump to England?


One was and the other wasn’t.  I have a grandmother that was a slave in the US.  My grandparents from the Bahamas were part of the first settlers to the new world and were never slaves.  I think my grandpa was one of the first with Royal blood to openly have “jungle fever.”  My family donated materials to build Harvard University and the pineapples to start the industry in Hawaii.  James Thompson   aka Guinea Jim (nigger loving Jim) was one of the original Scottish planters to arrive in the new world and is my legitimate grandpa.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Here lies my problem coach.  Some coaches preach "scholarship" and a naive parent equals that to a full ride.  That's on me, but it's how some minds work.  So you get to the place your kid is a Jr and you find out those don;t come around often. You get a reality check about Cali schools as well.  You see opportunities in humid and hot places or cold and freezing places around the country, but that's hard sell for some Cali girls who like the beach. My research tells me many Cali girls get home sick and transfer or quit as Fr ((not all)).  I know one girl who took a full ride on the East Coast instead of 25% on the West Coast.  Parents have bank, but the girl wanted to get away and go to college.  Fast forward to Fall practice and she's calling dad crying because her pigtails are frozen and she can't hang at practice and wants to come home.  That is a true story coach.  Or, how about___________________________________________________________________________________Not all the stories are good coach.  That's why the recruiting stopped for 7th graders and now they can;t talk until Jr year


apples and oranges... you were talking about people sponsoring "GOAT"s and how you change the subject.  My point is if you are sponsored by a private alumni group you are now in debt to someone.   
You are changing the subject. No club coach worth anything preaches full ride.  

End of Sophomore year because you are not a junior until you step foot on the hs campus or pass your sophomore year.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> apples and oranges... you were talking about people sponsoring "GOAT"s and how you change the subject.  My point is if you are sponsored by a private alumni group you are now in debt to someone.
> You are changing the subject. No club coach worth anything preaches full ride.
> 
> End of Sophomore year because you are not a junior until you step foot on the hs campus or pass your sophomore year.


I was sold Oranges and Apples, but they had worms in them.  They don;t say, "come to me and I will get you a full ride."  They say, "come to me and I will get you a scholarship. I am talking about sponsoring a goat or a player that is in the actual plans of the coaches stargedy to win.  The sponsor get's to come to the games and their dd get;s to go to the school.  That is it.  Were not talking about the Runin Rebels bro.  I liked Tark because he saw all the BS going on and took care of his players, like any good coach would back in those days.  Everyone won back then


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> I was sold Oranges and Apples, but they had worms in them.  They don;t say, "come to me and I will get you a full ride."  They say, "come to me and I will get you a scholarship. I am talking about sponsoring a goat or a player that is in the actual plans of the coaches stargedy to win.  The sponsor get's to come to the games and their dd get;s to go to the school.  That is it.  Were not talking about the Runin Rebels bro.  I liked Tark because he saw all the BS going on and took care of his players, like any good coach would back in those days.  Everyone won back then


Tark took players that should have been in jail instead of a classroom.


----------



## MacDre

Ellejustus said:


> I was sold Oranges and Apples, but they had worms in them.  They don;t say, "come to me and I will get you a full ride."  They say, "come to me and I will get you a scholarship. I am talking about sponsoring a goat or a player that is in the actual plans of the coaches stargedy to win.  The sponsor get's to come to the games and their dd get;s to go to the school.  That is it.  Were not talking about the Runin Rebels bro.  I liked Tark because he saw all the BS going on and took care of his players, like any good coach would back in those days.  Everyone won back then


Very valid point coach.  Lot’s of apples with worms.  They also haven’t been washed off and have pesticides on them too.
How does a coach teach tactics to a group of kids that don’t have the requisite skill set (ball skills)?  I don’t think it’s possible.  That’s why we have so much kickball.  Is it possible to teach a group of kids to play out of the back without proper ball skills?


----------



## Ellejustus

The Outlaw said:


> Tark took players that should have been in jail instead of a classroom.


Vegas coach laughs.  How about the________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-that loved the $$$$ coming!!!!


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> One was and the other wasn’t.  I have a grandmother that was a slave in the US.  My grandparents from the Bahamas were part of the first settlers to the new world and were never slaves.  I think my grandpa was one of the first with Royal blood to openly have “jungle fever.”  My family donated materials to build Harvard University and the pineapples to start the industry in Hawaii.  James Thompson   aka Guinea Jim (nigger loving Jim) was one of the original Scottish planters to arrive in the new world and is my legitimate grandpa.


I was assuming your grandmother was from Brazil, or some other country that emancipated late.  It is 155 years from 1865 to 2020.  Hard to bridge that gap in 3 generations.  Not impossible, but rare.


----------



## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> I was assuming your grandmother was from Brazil, or some other country that emancipated late.  It is 155 years from 1865 to 2020.  Hard to bridge that gap in 3 generations.  Not impossible, but rare.


I went surfing on the Island of Kauii one time with my bro.  He's lived there for 30 years.  Were adopted btw.  My hair is blond and he looks like a local. In fact, he takes the tourist on adventures and they think he's a local and he goes along with it to make a buck.  My wife's cousin sings on the island of Maui at those pig roasts.  He's from LA and is Guatemalan 100%.  However, if you look at his cover, he looks like he's lived on the island forever and he's from East LA.  Anyway, I go to my bro's secret spot 20 years ago and I immediately get harassed and asked to leave the break.  I did and went to the tourist spot all mad at my bro for taking me out to the locals only spot.  My brother said I tried to hard to be cool with the  locals and they didnt like that.  I went back 20 years later and it was super fun and everyone treated me cool.  They ddint; talk to me, but I got a few waves


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Ellejustus said:


> Vegas coach laughs.  How about the________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-that loved the $$$$ coming!!!!


You mean Tarkanian and the players?


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> I was assuming your grandmother was from Brazil, or some other country that emancipated late.  It is 155 years from 1865 to 2020.  Hard to bridge that gap in 3 generations.  Not impossible, but rare.


Valid point and I am not sure what happened.  There were slaves in the Bahamas but my grandmother clearly wasn’t.  I think my grandmother married a freed slave when she was 14 and they moved to Florida and worked in the USA as migrant workers.  I don’t think there was much difference.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> No it is called investment .  It is how pro golfers start.  They get a group of rich country club members pony up travel fees, entry fees, and expenses.  In return they get a percentage of the tournamen income including endorsement income for a certain period of time.  It bankrupts pros that do not make it.  You want to put your daughter thru this?


How does that bankrupt pros?  Did you mean that it was a loan, not a sponsorship?


----------



## vegasguy

You know one has asked this question of @MacDre and @Ellejustus  . Why do your girls HA


espola said:


> How does that bankrupt pros?  Did you mean that it was a loan, not a sponsorship?


These players sign a contract for the funds or investment with return.  There can be a clause that if they do not pay the investment back they owe the group money.  So if they do not do well on the PGA they could be in a world of debt.  It is private loans so to speak.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> You know one has asked this question of @MacDre and @Ellejustus  . Why do your girls HA
> 
> These players sign a contract for the funds or investment with return.  There can be a clause that if they do not pay the investment back they owe the group money.  So if they do not do well on the PGA they could be in a world of debt.  It is private loans so to speak.


Most performer (athletes, singers, authors) contracts I have been made aware of are a gamble by the promoter - the signing advance and actual expenses can be taken out of future earnings and thus make things lean for the performer for a while, but there is no obligation beyond that.  If they quit and get a job as soda jerk, that is their income to keep without declaring bankruptcy.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> Most performer (athletes, singers, authors) contracts I have been made aware of are a gamble by the promoter - the signing advance and actual expenses can be taken out of future earnings and thus make things lean for the performer for a while, but there is no obligation beyond that.  If they quit and get a job as soda jerk, that is their income to keep without declaring bankruptcy.


Are you you willing to do this for a college player like Ellejustus says he would be cool with.   and not necessarily, pro golfer are indentured to a point when they start out.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Are you you willing to do this for a college player like Ellejustus says he would be cool with.   and not necessarily, pro golfer are indentured to a point when they start out.


Girls are hurting sir and all you just laugh it off.  It's your source of revenue.  I get it. Enjoy the income boys!!!


----------



## vegasguy

what girls are hurting.. 12yr old girls and boys are not hurting.   College players girls and boys are not hurting.  You know there are more girl scholarships per team than boys scholarships and those scholarships on the girls side tend to be worth more money than a boys scholarship.  If  you are talking pro then why is that ?   Is it oppression or market value?  Now I am not saying USMNT and USWNT should not make similar wage but in league it is about revenue coming in and sustainability.   So just stop.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> what girls are hurting.. 12yr old girls and boys are not hurting.   College players girls and boys are not hurting.  You know there are more girl scholarships per team than boys scholarships and those scholarships on the girls side tend to be worth more money than a boys scholarship.  If  you are talking pro then why is that ?   Is it oppression or market value?  Now I am not saying USMNT and USWNT should not make similar wage but in league it is about revenue coming in and sustainability.   So just stop.


Were talking about girls here bro.  The guys suck at soccer.  Yes, college girls are hurting dude.


----------



## vegasguy

So let's look at @MacDre  daughters future school.  Cal Berkeley (although if she was a soccer player there he would cast aside her resume as she was entitled) from 2019.  Below will show both have D1 soccer men and women.  Average scholarship and cost in state and out of state.   @MacDre will claim in state although she never truly came from there as she was educated in a private school in another country.  

University of California-BerkeleyBerkeleyCANCAA  IMW   13,726   15,123   14,170   42,184

 Women on average of scholarship receive about $1,400 per year.   Just facts.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> Are you you willing to do this for a college player like Ellejustus says he would be cool with.   and not necessarily, pro golfer are indentured to a point when they start out.


Anyone signing up for such a plan should get an agent who is a lawyer familiar with performance contracts.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Were talking about girls here bro.  The guys suck at soccer.  Yes, college girls are hurting dude.


I was so typing a response that... well my better conscience made me erase.  So I will leave it here  U16 Albion Boys beat the top 12 International women's teams.  The Portland Thorns train behind closed doors against the U15 boys academy team trying to better themselves and lose by 3 goals.  But mens soccer is awful.  Bruh.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> So let's look at @MacDre  daughters future school.  Cal Berkeley (although if she was a soccer player there he would cast aside her resume as she was entitled) from 2019.  Below will show both have D1 soccer men and women.  Average scholarship and cost in state and out of state.   @MacDre will claim in state although she never truly came from there as she was educated in a private school in another country.
> ​
> University of California-BerkeleyBerkeleyCANCAA  IMW   13,726   15,123   14,170   42,184
> 
> 
> Women on average of scholarship receive about $1,400 per year.   Just facts.


What do all the numbers mean?


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> What do all the numbers mean?


UC Berkeley  both have M and W... Avg Mens scholarship is  $13,726  Avg Womens Scholarship is $15,123  based in state tuition before expenses is $14,170 (good to be an instate student that can live at home to got to Cal).  Base out of state tuition is $42,184 before expenses. By expenses I mean room and board not books and transportation to and from home to go see mom and dad.  Now these stats may be a year or two old but these are reported stats.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> UC Berkeley  both have M and W... Avg Mens scholarship is  $13,726  Avg Womens Scholarship is $15,123  based in state tuition before expenses is $14,170 (good to be an instate student that can live at home to got to Cal).  Base out of state tuition is $42,184 before expenses. By expenses I mean room and board not books and transportation to and from home to go see mom and dad.  Now these stats may be a year or two old but these are reported stats.


It looks like you pulled a line out of a spreadsheet or a chart.  What was it?


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> what girls are hurting.. 12yr old girls and boys are not hurting.   College players girls and boys are not hurting.  You know there are more girl scholarships per team than boys scholarships and those scholarships on the girls side tend to be worth more money than a boys scholarship.  If  you are talking pro then why is that ?   Is it oppression or market value?  Now I am not saying USMNT and USWNT should not make similar wage but in league it is about revenue coming in and sustainability.   So just stop.


If women receive tv air time, revenue will start coming in similar to how it is in Europe and Mexico.  The issue is how are you gonna improve development and increase access to soccer so we can continue to win coach?  What’s going to be the excuse when we start loosing?


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> It looks like you pulled a line out of a spreadsheet or a chart.  What was it?


It is a tool that gives you a majority of colleges that report what Div they are including JC.  Reports if they have men and women or just women programs, Avg Mens Scholarships, Avg Womens schoalarships (both athletics), in-state base cost, out of state base cost, avg SAT range, Avg ACT range, avg admission acceptance rate, % of those student receiving financial aid,  enrollment amount, avg financial aid award.  

It is a tool not an absolute.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> UC Berkeley  both have M and W... Avg Mens scholarship is  $13,726  Avg Womens Scholarship is $15,123  based in state tuition before expenses is $14,170 (good to be an instate student that can live at home to got to Cal).  Base out of state tuition is $42,184 before expenses. By expenses I mean room and board not books and transportation to and from home to go see mom and dad.  Now these stats may be a year or two old but these are reported stats.





espola said:


> It looks like you pulled a line out of a spreadsheet or a chart.  What was it?


Coach, this is expensive!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> If women receive tv air time, revenue will start coming in similar to how it is in Europe and Mexico


You are smart enough to realize I am talking about college soccer again yes?    

What is the contract for people to watch very poor womens soccer in Mexico on TV (it is not on par with NWSL)?  Tigres two time champ lost to Dash in the 7th place NWSL team in October of 2 0 1 9 .  Now to the town of Monterrey's credit (over the border a bit in Laredo, TX you should go to Taco Palenque the bomb fajitas), 8K fans showed up which is great.


----------



## vegasguy

$14K for in-state is expensive?  Yep.  UC Schools set the price.   Try being Johnny boy coming from Colorado going to Cal and paying $42K just to study..   
college is not inexpensive.  Thank good for athletic assistance, educational assistance, grants, and financial assistance.  How much is an IVY education? hint in excess of $200k.  How much is it if your household income is less than $160K a year?


----------



## outside!

vegasguy said:


> I was so typing a response that... well my better conscience made me erase.  So I will leave it here  U16 Albion Boys beat the top 12 International women's teams.  The Portland Thorns train behind closed doors against the U15 boys academy team trying to better themselves and lose by 3 goals.  But mens soccer is awful.  Bruh.


Men and women are different and comparing their sports performance against each other is stupid other than to note they are different. The only true way to do the comparison would be to incorporate total lifetime physical performance, and since women can grow a human, men lose in that comparison.


----------



## vegasguy

outside! said:


> Men and women are different and comparing their sports performance against each other is stupid other than to note they are different. The only true way to do the comparison would be to incorporate total lifetime physical performance, and since women can grow a human, men lose in that comparison.


absolutely.  But when saying mens soccer sucks as a blanket statement a comparison can be made.  Look I think Mia Hamm was a better soccer player than Landon Donovan based on ability.  I also coach only girls teams these days because thereis beauty in their game (younger ages) as opposed to boys the same age who want to run forward and thru walls and score goals.   Boys learn possession later in the game.  Please know parents can play a role in all this. 
I had a tangent but isolation took me way off course and I was in Pluto's rotation.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You are smart enough to realize I am talking about college soccer again yes?
> 
> What is the contract for people to watch very poor womens soccer in Mexico on TV (it is not on par with NWSL)?  Tigres two time champ lost to Dash in the 7th place NWSL team in October of 2 0 1 9 .  Now to the town of Monterrey's credit (over the border a bit in Laredo, TX you should go to Taco Palenque the bomb fajitas), 8K fans showed up which is great.


No, coach...Tigres won that game.  And for the most part Liga MX Femenil is a U23 development league with restrictions on older players.


----------



## vegasguy

You are right.. there was a correction on ProSoccer article.  My mistake. but  2time champ v 7th place team is still telling on better soccer.   I know you say future v now.  get it.  but never answered Mexico tv contract.  Next question, why did Liga MX Feminal change from only Mexican women to allowing Mexican American women that they once cut?   Was it better soccer?

By the way the scorecard shows Dash pulled some of their best players by the 60th minute including their captain Ms. JJ Watts. 4 starters at half when they were up.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You are right.. there was a correction on ProSoccer article.  My mistake. but  2time champ v 7th place team is still telling on better soccer.   I know you say future v now.  get it.  but never answered Mexico tv contract.  Next question, why did Liga MX Feminal change from only Mexican women to allowing Mexican American women that they once cut?   Was it better soccer?
> 
> By the way the scorecard shows Dash pulled some of their best players by the 60th minute including their captain Ms. JJ Watts. 4 starters at half when they were up.


The reason for the prohibition on foreign players in Mexico is because Mexico is trying to remedy years of excluding women from the game.  If Mexico allowed foreigners from the outset, the league would’ve been full of girls from the US and Europe and Mexican girls would still be excluded.  After 3 years the league is starting to open up to foreign players.  Trust me, Mexico no longer needs US players.

Tigres still won and dominated.  As a matter of fact, after the game attempts were made to recruit Katty Martinez to NWSL.  And, Liga MX Femenil is a U23 developmental league mostly with limits on older players.  Why so many excuses coach?


----------



## vegasguy

No excuses. Perspective.  Why did Dash pull their starters against the two time LigaMX Champ if the game was so important.   They excluded Mex/American players with dual citizenship at the beginning for reference.  If they no longer need the players was are Xolos still paying them?  What about Tigres? any others?   why thin arguments and non-answers to direct questions again.  Look you believe LigaMx is the future.  Your view.  I have watched matches and the soccer is not as good as US teams. Again stating two time champ is only as even as 7th place NWSL and not as good as UCLA.  Stanford plays better possession that Cruz Azul and the keepers in US have better technique.  My opinion but you are the expert.


----------



## vegasguy

and yet you stop answering direct questions and deflect like a judge running for his third term.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> No excuses. Perspective.  Why did Dash pull their starters against the two time LigaMX Champ if the game was so important.   They excluded Mex/American players with dual citizenship at the beginning for reference.  If they no longer need the players was are Xolos still paying them?  What about Tigres? any others?   why thin arguments and non-answers to direct questions again.  Look you believe LigaMx is the future.  Your view.  I have watched matches and the soccer is not as good as US teams. Again stating two time champ is only as even as 7th place NWSL and not as good as UCLA.  Stanford plays better possession that Cruz Azul and the keepers in US have better technique.  My opinion but you are the expert.


UCLA could beat an NWSL team?  Seriously?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> UCLA could beat an NWSL team?  Seriously?


 No that is my point.   Tigres owned a second half against reserves.  UCLA beats most of LigaMX Feminal teams in my opinion.  Cruz Azul in the match I watched was lacking sharpness, defensive marking was full of gaps.  Had the team they played passed to the ten and dropped to the eight more often then they would have had more opportunity as Cruz Azul in their defensive third sucked into the 12.   When Pumas shot it was without target and at the keeper.  Now Pumas had space and possessed better but chance came off shots outside the eighteen which were pushed away and smothered not caught.  I am say UCLA is better than Cruz Azul for sure.   Pumas was good but not better than NWSL teams.


----------



## vegasguy

vegasguy said:


> No that is my point.   Tigres owned a second half against reserves.  UCLA beats most of LigaMX Feminal teams in my opinion.  Cruz Azul in the match I watched was lacking sharpness, defensive marking was full of gaps.  Had the team they played passed to the ten and dropped to the eight more often then they would have had more opportunity as Cruz Azul in their defensive third sucked into the 12.   When Pumas shot it was without target and at the keeper.  Now Pumas had space and possessed better but chance came off shots outside the eighteen which were pushed away and smothered not caught.  I am say UCLA is better than Cruz Azul for sure.   Pumas was good but not better than NWSL teams.


Remember.... you do not watch college soccer.. you also do not answer questions that you can not answer.  I am not an expert and there are many coaches out there that may see your side or my side.  It is opinion.  I tell you that you see your side because you are within the trees and do not see the forest.  The same may be said for me.  Until there is true proof we only have thesis. Right now facts outweigh theory.  Now that could change but not anytime soon.    Again you deflect from college conversation and I jump right into the rabbit hole.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> No excuses. Perspective.  Why did Dash pull their starters against the two time LigaMX Champ if the game was so important.   They excluded Mex/American players with dual citizenship at the beginning for reference.  If they no longer need the players was are Xolos still paying them?  What about Tigres? any others?   why thin arguments and non-answers to direct questions again.  Look you believe LigaMx is the future.  Your view.  I have watched matches and the soccer is not as good as US teams. Again stating two time champ is only as even as 7th place NWSL and not as good as UCLA.  Stanford plays better possession that Cruz Azul and the keepers in US have better technique.  My opinion but you are the expert.


The Xolo’s...we are a regional California team. A team without borders is our philosophy.  You make valid arguments so I concede.  However, I would say starting with Mexico’s 2005’s and younger you will see Mexico turn a corner.  Don’t forget FIFA is also implementing their pilot program in Mexico.  Better yet, when ya gonna bring your girls down for a friendly so we can teach you about real tacos and Futbol...Has your team ever ate tacos and played Futbol coach?


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> The Xolo’s...we are a regional California team. A team without borders is our philosophy.  You make valid arguments so I concede.  However, I would say starting with Mexico’s 2005’s and younger you will see Mexico turn a corner.  Don’t forget FIFA is also implementing their pilot program in Mexico.  Better yet, when ya gonna bring your girls down for a friendly so we can teach you about real tacos and Futbol...Has your team ever ate tacos and played Futbol coach?


definitely not tacos and then soccer.  and it better be lengua or tripe just for reference for me.   05s are u14?   Is the FIFA pilot similar to DA or is it you suck so go home rules?   It now takes a passport and travel neither of which my u12 team has or does a whole lot.  Twice a year is good for them.  Feel free to convince your fully funded program to come to Vegas.  Vegas Cup, Mayors Cup, Players... we have plenty of solid tournaments.


----------



## youthsportsugh

vegasguy said:


> definitely not tacos and then soccer.  and it better be lengua or tripe just for reference for me.   05s are u14?   Is the FIFA pilot similar to DA or is it you suck so go home rules?   It now takes a passport and travel neither of which my u12 team has or does a whole lot.  Twice a year is good for them.  Feel free to convince your fully funded program to come to Vegas.  Vegas Cup, Mayors Cup, Players... we have plenty of solid tournaments.


05 are U15 -- some pretty solid clubs around the country at this age


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> definitely not tacos and then soccer.  and it better be lengua or tripe just for reference for me.   05s are u14?   Is the FIFA pilot similar to DA or is it you suck so go home rules?   It now takes a passport and travel neither of which my u12 team has or does a whole lot.  Twice a year is good for them.  Feel free to convince your fully funded program to come to Vegas.  Vegas Cup, Mayors Cup, Players... we have plenty of solid tournaments.


We’re tired of sending our c teams to win it all.


----------



## MacDre

youthsportsugh said:


> 05 are U15 -- some pretty solid clubs around the country at this age


And that’s when you can start holding Mexico accountable.  Which clubs have the top U15’s?


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> definitely not tacos and then soccer.  and it better be lengua or tripe just for reference for me.   05s are u14?   Is the FIFA pilot similar to DA or is it you suck so go home rules?   It now takes a passport and travel neither of which my u12 team has or does a whole lot.  Twice a year is good for them.  Feel free to convince your fully funded program to come to Vegas.  Vegas Cup, Mayors Cup, Players... we have plenty of solid tournaments.


The FIFA pilot is funding for a YNT program with independent FIFA scouts and coaches.  Liga MX Femenil is a fully funded developmental women’s league.


----------



## ToonArmy

MacDre said:


> And that’s when you can start holding Mexico accountable.  Which clubs have the top U15’s?


U15s









						AMERICAN FEMALE YOUTH TEAMS ARE BETTER THAN THEY’VE EVER BEEN • SoccerToday
					

SoccerToday - Voice of American Soccer




					www.soccertoday.com


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> The FIFA pilot is funding for a YNT program with independent FIFA scouts and coaches.  Liga MX Femenil is a fully funded developmental women’s league.


So GDA. Got it


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> We’re tired of sending our c teams to win it all.


When and where ans what tournament was last time your daughters team into the states to win it all.  I mean Xolos are fully funded so ...


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> When and where ans what tournament was last time your daughters team into the states to win it all.  I mean Xolos are fully funded so ...


I’m thinking boys; my daughter recently began playing with girls.  The boys from the rec leagues in TJ win the Vegas tournaments regularly.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> I’m thinking boys; my daughter recently began playing with girls.  The boys from the rec leagues in TJ win the Vegas tournaments regularly.



Bet..  Show it.  So we can discuss it..


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Bet..  Show it.  So we can discuss it..


I have no idea how to access that information but I think they usually play as Baja


----------



## vegasguy

What tournament...what date..   just a story otherwise right

Do they think they are all going pro or is there a place for them in college.. UNLV has a couple on scholarship.. maybe they should have quit aooner


----------



## vegasguy

It is rare a Mex team wins gold in Vegas in many age groups just FYI.  Same at Surf... Man City.. Nomads.. Cerritos.. NHB... aren't Xolos regional.

Still not answering but I get it no answers for the real questions.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> What tournament...what date..   just a story otherwise right
> 
> Do they think they are all going pro or is there a place for them in college.. UNLV has a couple on scholarship.. maybe they should have quit aooner


So how much does UNLV cost coach?


----------



## MacDre

Hs


vegasguy said:


> It is rare a Mex team wins gold in Vegas in many age groups just FYI.  Same at Surf... Man City.. Nomads.. Cerritos.. NHB... aren't Xolos regional.
> 
> Still not answering but I get it no answers for the real questions.


Hah!








						XOLOX WIN ADIDAS GENERATION CUP PREMIER DIVISION • SoccerToday
					

SoccerToday - Voice of American Soccer




					www.soccertoday.com


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Hs
> 
> Hah!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XOLOX WIN ADIDAS GENERATION CUP PREMIER DIVISION • SoccerToday
> 
> 
> SoccerToday - Voice of American Soccer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.soccertoday.com


First not the c team and second not Vegas.  That is a good win though but not the top division in the tournament..  But also not your proof that Xolos are tired of sending c teams to Vegas.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> So how much does UNLV cost coach?


About 8K in state and 21k out of state..  before expenses.  If you are from NV and maintain a certain GPA you qualify for the millineum scholarship that I believe is 2500 a semester.  unlv is also a WUE school I think..


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> First not the c team and second not Vegas.  That is a good win though but not the top division in the tournament..  But also not your proof that Xolos are tired of sending c teams to Vegas.


So now you’re advocating for men soccer?  Are you in a casino getting free drinks?  I’m not sure what teams but I’m sure Baja regularly send weak teams to Vegas and wins.  It’s kinda seen as a confidence booster for scrub teams-ya know, picking the low hanging fruit type thing.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> So now you’re advocating for men soccer?  Are you in a casino getting free drinks?  I’m not sure what teams but I’m sure Baja regularly send weak teams to Vegas and wins.  It’s kinda seen as a confidence booster for scrub teams-ya know, picking the low hanging fruit type thing.


You are making up stories and getting called out on it.  Because it isn't true.  You brought Vegas and boys up not me.  I asked if they should be focusing on college since they are on the c team.  You put forth a second division team.  Like I said you are hyper focused on Mex as the place of destiny for the future of soccer.  Good on you.  
Just be honest and not deflect.  
Best of luck


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> what girls are hurting.. 12yr old girls and boys are not hurting.   College players girls and boys are not hurting.  You know there are more girl scholarships per team than boys scholarships and those scholarships on the girls side tend to be worth more money than a boys scholarship.  If  you are talking pro then why is that ?   Is it oppression or market value?  Now I am not saying USMNT and USWNT should not make similar wage but in league it is about revenue coming in and sustainability.   So just stop.


Just for you Vegus Guy Coach
*SA: U.S. Soccer's new Mental Health section on the Recognize to Recover site includes a COVID-specific part, but had already been in the works ...

GEORGE CHIAMPAS*: My philosophy as Chief Medical Officer is that it's important for us, with Recognize to Recover, to tackle all aspects and make information readily available for our sport. *Stuart Sharp* [U.S. Soccer Paralympic head coach] is a big advocate on the mental health side. We brought in former national team player *John O'Brien* [who earned a degree in psychology]. Obviously, his perspective is so important as a former player who is working in the psychology space. *Jim Moorehouse* from our programing side, and *Laura McLane*, one of our national team athletic trainers, were among others bringing this content together.

*Depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder -- those are areas that we want our coaches, our players and our parents across the country to have a resource to turn to. Mental health is something we want to start speaking about in our sport.*

Let's see if you can answer a question for me.  

What should a coach do if he suspects a player may have mental health issues?


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> About 8K in state and 21k out of state..  before expenses.  If you are from NV and maintain a certain GPA you qualify for the millineum scholarship that I believe is 2500 a semester.  unlv is also a WUE school I think..


It’s less than club soccer to attend UNLV!


Ellejustus said:


> Just for you Vegus Guy Coach
> *SA: U.S. Soccer's new Mental Health section on the Recognize to Recover site includes a COVID-specific part, but had already been in the works ...
> 
> GEORGE CHIAMPAS*: My philosophy as Chief Medical Officer is that it's important for us, with Recognize to Recover, to tackle all aspects and make information readily available for our sport. *Stuart Sharp* [U.S. Soccer Paralympic head coach] is a big advocate on the mental health side. We brought in former national team player *John O'Brien* [who earned a degree in psychology]. Obviously, his perspective is so important as a former player who is working in the psychology space. *Jim Moorehouse* from our programing side, and *Laura McLane*, one of our national team athletic trainers, were among others bringing this content together.
> 
> *Depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder -- those are areas that we want our coaches, our players and our parents across the country to have a resource to turn to. Mental health is something we want to start speaking about in our sport.*
> 
> Let's see if you can answer a question for me.
> 
> What should a coach do if he suspects a player may have mental health issues?


 Good question.  I know at Club Tijuana for the younger age group 30 minutes of practice time per week is a group activity with a sports psychologist.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> You are making up stories and getting called out on it.  Because it isn't true.  You brought Vegas and boys up not me.  I asked if they should be focusing on college since they are on the c team.  You put forth a second division team.  Like I said you are hyper focused on Mex as the place of destiny for the future of soccer.  Good on you.
> Just be honest and not deflect.
> Best of luck


I only make up half my stories when I do story time on the soccer forum.....lol.  Coaches I used to know read little fairy tail stories about the Olympic games back in the Athens days and how girls actually competed too and now they too can be pro one day like Marta or OM or Mallory.  Every week a new fairy tail would be read.  What Me and MacDre want to see is a pathway for the top 2% to get out of this pay per play model asap that will ruin the girls side and maybe already has.  I'm not CFO dude, but I know if their is a will, their is always away.  98% can still go for college.  I love college sports and I want UCLA to win every game.  I'm super pissed that Nix went to the G League so he can choose whats best for him and his family.  He should be allowed to get drafted in the NBA btw.  If you want college like Klay Thompson, then you go for four years.  No more one and done.  We need some rules in place.  I hated watching Lonzo for just one year.  Bring back college sports for it's purpose.  I do think college football is a good minor league for the NFL and brings in the cash and all the fun with it.  I LOVE college football   I think college football players only should get spending money each month and then depending on how they do the four years there there, they can can get some of the loot too.  I'm open to the basketball players too but most of the super stars will not be going to college out of hs.  TGIF!!!


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> It’s less than club soccer to attend UNLV!


I do not know what you think every club costs all in.  I do not pay that for my son.    $8K is a lot of money for a lot of local families.  If the player can get 30% athletic scholarship and the Millennium Scholarship, the player can get a stipend.  But feel free to argue that college soccer should go away and take those opportunities away.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> What should a coach do if he suspects a player may have mental health issues?


Well since most clubs can not afford a sports psychologist and most of us do not live the privileged life of a MacDre to have his daughter attend private school and Xolos Academy, I would talk seriously with the parents about my concerns.  I would also help them seek out resources if they were open to my assistance.  Communication is key for a coach and for a parent.  I have open dialogue with my son's coach and not all those conversations are easy. 

Look then find your pathway to the pros and let those who choose college soccer earn their pathway.  I will be honest and will not change my opinion on college and college athletics not just soccer.   Ellejustus are you willing to follow macdre and choose pro or bust and never look at college as an opportunity?


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Well since most clubs can not afford a sports psychologist and most of us do not live the privileged life of a MacDre to have his daughter attend private school and Xolos Academy, I would talk seriously with the parents about my concerns.  I would also help them seek out resources if they were open to my assistance.  Communication is key for a coach and for a parent.  I have open dialogue with my son's coach and not all those conversations are easy.
> 
> Look then find your pathway to the pros and let those who choose college soccer earn their pathway.  I will be honest and will not change my opinion on college and college athletics not just soccer.   Ellejustus are you willing to follow macdre and choose pro or bust and never look at college as an opportunity?


Not pro or bust.  Rather pro or study hard, focus on career, club soccer, and joining a fraternity/sorority is a better alternative.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Not pro or bust.  Rather pro or study hard, focus on career, club soccer, and joining a fraternity/sorority is a better alternative.



Why do you think a college athlete can not get good grades.  There is a Doctor playing offensive line in the NFL.  There is a award winning physicist doing the same.   What about he Stanford grad playing baseball or the LAFC player that graduated with high grades and a college diploma.


----------



## Ellejustus

vegasguy said:


> Well since most clubs can not afford a sports psychologist and most of us do not live the privileged life of a MacDre to have his daughter attend private school and Xolos Academy, I would talk seriously with the parents about my concerns.  I would also help them seek out resources if they were open to my assistance.  Communication is key for a coach and for a parent.  I have open dialogue with my son's coach and not all those conversations are easy.
> 
> Look then find your pathway to the pros and let those who choose college soccer earn their pathway.  I will be honest and will not change my opinion on college and college athletics not just soccer.   Ellejustus are you willing to follow macdre and choose pro or bust and never look at college as an opportunity?


Coach, who trained you on young girls striving to be the best from U12-U17 and to see if they have any "mental" issues?  If my dd was wanted and valued, I think she would jump at pro after HS if they gave her a 4 year deal at $75,000 a year plus free college for those four years.  She can;t play on the college team though.  You can't do both. However, like I said a 100 times, she wants college and I support that and no way will that ever happen, right? College or bust for 99.99%.   I dont think it should be a club sport at most schools either.  Their does seem like some money issues at all the schools and we need to look into that and think outside the box.  We can do this better and make everyone happy.  The NC Courage coach agrees with Me and Macdre too.


----------



## vegasguy

Ellejustus said:


> Coach, who trained you on young girls striving to be the best from U12-U17 and to see if they have any "mental" issues?  If my dd was wanted and valued, I think she would jump at pro after HS if they gave her a 4 year deal at $75,000 a year plus free college for those four years.  She can;t play on the college team though.  You can't do both. However, like I said a 100 times, she wants college and I support that and no way will that ever happen, right? College or bust for 99.99%.   I dont think it should be a club sport at most schools either.  Their does seem like some money issues at all the schools and we need to look into that and think outside the box.  We can do this better and make everyone happy.  The NC Courage coach agrees with Me and Macdre too.


Regarding mental issues it is the same as observing people.  You can see changes and if those changes persist I have a conversation with the parents.  I do not diagnose the issue but will advise I see the changes.  It is their decision to act on it or do with what they want.  

How is it sustainable to pay the players $75k a year and give them a 4yr college education for pro players.  They do not even do that on the men's side.   La Masia does not give a college education.   But you propose they should do it only for women?


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> Coach, who trained you on young girls striving to be the best from U12-U17 and to see if they have any "mental" issues?  If my dd was wanted and valued, I think she would jump at pro after HS if they gave her a 4 year deal at $75,000 a year plus free college for those four years.  She can;t play on the college team though.  You can't do both. However, like I said a 100 times, she wants college and I support that and no way will that ever happen, right? College or bust for 99.99%.   I dont think it should be a club sport at most schools either.  Their does seem like some money issues at all the schools and we need to look into that and think outside the box.  We can do this better and make everyone happy.  The NC Courage coach agrees with Me and Macdre too.


It's all about the money.  Unless you convince those making the money to change, how it works is how it works.  There is absolutely a better way.  Problem is the people in control don't want better, they want status quo and to keep the money coming.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> It's all about the money.  Unless you convince those making the money to change, how it works is how it works.  There is absolutely a better way.  Problem is the people in control don't want better, they want status quo and to keep the money coming.


Hey Woobie6, you seem like a great dad that I never had.  Sorry for challenging you with the stupid, "how much crap."  I already told everyone how much I spent so there is nothing wrong with that.  I promise I'm not a psychopath.  When I'm not healthy, my doc tells me I become a narcissist.  I tend to feel sorry for myself and want to be alone.  I fought the good fight and I can take this anymore.  I joke around 50% of the time in my writings.  I'm not hear to threaten anybody on this forum.  I swear to you as God as my witness.  No more PMs please.  Let me repeat, I'm not hear to threaten any body on this forum.  If I called you names, please forgive me.  I thought we could talk smack and name call.  I will stop that today and look to get better.  I'm going stir crazy in my house and I will break some rules today and hit my surf spot


----------



## Woobie06

Ellejustus said:


> Hey Woobie6, you seem like a great dad that I never had.  Sorry for challenging you with the stupid, "how much crap."  I already told everyone how much I spent so there is nothing wrong with that.  I promise I'm not a psychopath.  When I'm not healthy, my doc tells me I become a narcissist.  I tend to feel sorry for myself and want to be alone.  I fought the good fight and I can take this anymore.  I joke around 50% of the time in my writings.  I'm not hear to threaten anybody on this forum.  I swear to you as God as my witness.  No more PMs please.  Let me repeat, I'm not hear to threaten any body on this forum.  If I called you names, please forgive me.  I thought we could talk smack and name call.  I will stop that today and look to get better.  I'm going stir crazy in my house and I will break some rules today and hit my surf spot


Thanks...All good EJ.  I don't take any of this stuff personally.  It's fun to have the interaction since we are all locked up.  I'm totally good with the smack talk, Jokes, etc.  I get you want things to change and what is best for your DD.  That's most important.  Enjoy the beach!


----------



## dad4

vegasguy said:


> I do not know what you think every club costs all in.  I do not pay that for my son.    $8K is a lot of money for a lot of local families.  If the player can get 30% athletic scholarship and the Millennium Scholarship, the player can get a stipend.  But feel free to argue that college soccer should go away and take those opportunities away.


How do you guys manage the travel costs for ECRL?


----------



## SBFDad

MacDre said:


> Hs
> 
> Hah!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XOLOX WIN ADIDAS GENERATION CUP PREMIER DIVISION • SoccerToday
> 
> 
> SoccerToday - Voice of American Soccer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.soccertoday.com


Consolation prize in Premier Division. Sounders took the Championship Division against some of the top academies in the world. Not exactly sure what point you were trying to make (since I don’t wanna have to back-read endless pages of this back-and-forth), but Xolos weren’t playing with the big boys.









						MAKING HISTORY: SEATTLE SOUNDERS ACADEMY WINS GA CUP • SoccerToday
					

SoccerToday - Voice of American Soccer




					www.soccertoday.com


----------



## vegasguy

dad4 said:


> How do you guys manage the travel costs for ECRL


  Team travel.  We don't fly anywhere. My 04s did not play this last year as it was their first year of high school for most of them so I let them focus on that .  Our 05s played and many of their Saturday games were later in the day so they would travel to SoCal in the morning thus eliminating a nights stay.   We try and be creative and accommodating.   We play tournaments in our region.  Surf, Players, Mayors, Legends... I set a schedule early on so we can budget it out a bit.  

We will play ECRL this year but compared to ECNL the travel is way less.


----------



## Copa9

vegasguy said:


> I was so typing a response that... well my better conscience made me erase.  So I will leave it here  U16 Albion Boys beat the top 12 International women's teams.  The Portland Thorns train behind closed doors against the U15 boys academy team trying to better themselves and lose by 3 goals.  But mens soccer is awful.  Bruh.


So...... We all know that when testosterone kicks in for males they become stronger and faster for the most part, always exceptions, no big deal, but hey women can grow a human being inside their bodies.


----------



## warrior49

MacDre said:


> Not pro or bust.  Rather pro or study hard, focus on career, club soccer, and joining a fraternity/sorority is a better alternative.


Why can't you play D1 soccer, study hard, focus on a career, and be in the "sorority" of athletes going to battle every week with each other rather than the the sorority of beer bongs? (Asks my dd just now as she leaves to go on a run).


----------



## Copa9

youthsportsugh said:


> 05 are U15 -- some pretty solid clubs around the country at this age


05's are all turning 15 this year so will be U16 when play resumes.


----------



## youthsportsugh

Copa9 said:


> 05's are all turning 15 this year so will be U16 when play resumes.


Probably true, but the original comment was 05 are u14?, So the current status is 05 are U15


----------



## MacDre

warrior49 said:


> Why can't you play D1 soccer, study hard, focus on a career, and be in the "sorority" of athletes going to battle every week with each other rather than the the sorority of beer bongs? (Asks my dd just now as she leaves to go on a run).


D1 soccer is too demanding and time consuming for someone without professional aspirations in soccer.  Shouldn’t young adults be focusing on what they ultimately want to do professionally?


----------



## Kicknit22

It’s rather disingenuous to make a comment that men’s soccer is awful. It’s not.  They’re tremendous athletes. The speed at which the game is played and skills are displayed, is hard to match by women.  It just becomes, for me, unwatchable with the antics (Neymar Legacy) that are FAR more prevalent in the men’s game.  I’d much rather watch a women’s game be it Pro, college or high level club.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> D1 soccer is too demanding and time consuming for someone without professional aspirations in soccer.  Shouldn’t young adults be focusing on what they ultimately want to do professionally?


I just sent Catarina Macario an email stating her future is fucked based on your post.  She replied back with some babble about "Stanford Alumni Network" and a bunch of .  Not sure what that's all about, Dre.


----------



## warrior49

MacDre said:


> D1 soccer is too demanding and time consuming for someone without professional aspirations in soccer.  Shouldn’t young adults be focusing on what they ultimately want to do professionally?


Who says it's too demanding? You? Not the athletes I know. That makes zero sense.


----------



## warrior49

MacDre said:


> D1 soccer is too demanding and time consuming for someone without professional aspirations in soccer.  Shouldn’t young adults be focusing on what they ultimately want to do professionally?


That's also like saying students should never have outside interests other than what they "think" their career is going to be at 19 years old.


----------



## MacDre

warrior49 said:


> That's also like saying students should never have outside interests other than what they "think" their career is going to be at 19 years old.


I’m just kidding.  I like joking with @vegasguy because he’s passionate about kids.  I find it refreshing that there are coaches that care more about kids than money.

Lots of fake coaches out there with great things ON their resume.  But with great coaches it’s IN you not ON you.  @vegasguy has it IN him, I’m just teasing dude so he can put his passion on display so the fakes can see what the real looks like.

Congratulations to your daughter.


----------



## jpeter

The NCAA approved a waiver that will allow schools to spend below the minimum level on athletic scholarships required to compete in Division I.









						NCAA relaxes D-1 scholarship spending levels
					

The NCAA approved a waiver that will allow schools to spend below the minimum level on athletic scholarships required to compete in Division I in response to the coronavirus pandemic.



					www.espn.com


----------



## espola

jpeter said:


> The NCAA approved a waiver that will allow schools to spend below the minimum level on athletic scholarships required to compete in Division I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA relaxes D-1 scholarship spending levels
> 
> 
> The NCAA approved a waiver that will allow schools to spend below the minimum level on athletic scholarships required to compete in Division I in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com


I never heard of a minimum before.  How does that fit with the Ivies (no athletic scholarships) and the service academies (everyone is on scholarship)?


----------



## jpeter

espola said:


> I never heard of a minimum before.  How does that fit with the Ivies (no athletic scholarships) and the service academies (everyone is on scholarship)?


Maybe someone with more detail knowledge can answer that.

What I took from the article is the 200 grants or 4million spend on them for D1 sports will not be required for a period of 1year.

Will there be less scholarship money for soccer?  Yes seems to be the case for at least a year.


----------



## espola

jpeter said:


> Maybe someone with more detail knowledge can answer that.
> 
> What I took from the article is the 200 grants or 4million spend on them for D1 sports will not be required for a period of 1year.
> 
> Will there be less scholarship money for soccer?  Yes seems to be the case for at least a year.


What NCAA rule is that?  (I'll race you to find the answer)


----------



## espola

Found it (I think) --

20.9.3.2 Minimum Awards. A member of Division I shall provide institutional financial assistance that equals one of the following: 

after which are several options and an escape clause that allows all financial aid, including Federal Pell grants, to be counted in the same basket with athletic scholarships.



			http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D120.pdf


----------



## Yak

MacDre said:


> That’s my point, I have a British passport.  So my kid has a British passport and can play for a UK team the same way those men can play for the USA-they have valid passports and are US citizens through their fathers.  She’s just as eligible to play in the UK as she is the USA.


That's not necessarily true.  My player has 3 citizenships but not eligible to play for one of those countries under FIFA rules.


----------



## MacDre

Yak said:


> That's not necessarily true.  My player has 3 citizenships but not eligible to play for one of those countries under FIFA rules.
> View attachment 7108


I think I still apply under the plain meaning of the statue because my grandparents were born in the UK. 
However, I do wonder how they are defining has “lived”on the territory. It seems this is a very low bar for someone that has valid passport to show they have merely lived somewhere for 2 years.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> I think I still apply under the plain meaning of the statue because my grandparents were born in the UK.
> However, I do wonder how they are defining has “lived”on the territory. It seems this is a very low bar for someone that has valid passport to show they have merely lived somewhere for 2 years.


Tell us about France again.


----------



## MacDre

N


espola said:


> Tell us about France again.


Not sure about France.  I just know my wife’s family has strong ties to France.  However, I suspect for example, that if my kid studied French in France for 2 years that she would qualify for expedited French citizenship due to strong familial ties.


----------



## Yak

MacDre said:


> I think I still apply under the plain meaning of the statue because my grandparents were born in the UK.
> However, I do wonder how they are defining has “lived”on the territory. It seems this is a very low bar for someone that has valid passport to show they have merely lived somewhere for 2 years.


Clearly reads that the player's grandparent must be born in the particular country, not the player's parent's grandparent.

Agree that the 2 year requirement is the one criterion that is controllable.


----------



## MacDre

Yak said:


> Clearly reads that the player's grandparent must be born in the particular country, not the player's parent's grandparent.
> 
> Agree that the 2 year requirement is the one criterion that is controllable.


Define “grandparent” too.  Seems ambiguous to me-clear as mud.


----------



## MacDre

MacDre said:


> Define “grandparent” too.  Seems ambiguous to me-clear as mud.


Also, I think we have to look at the “legislative intent” of this article and why it was enacted to avoid an arbitrary unjust result.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> N
> 
> Not sure about France.  I just know my wife’s family has strong ties to France.  However, I suspect for example, that if my kid studied French in France for 2 years that she would qualify for expedited French citizenship due to strong familial ties.


Familial ties?  The French left Canada about 1760.  Do your ties go back that far?


----------



## Kicknit22

MacDre said:


> Define “grandparent” too.  Seems ambiguous to me-clear as mud.


Huh??


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> Familial ties?  The French left Canada about 1760.  Do your ties go back that far?


I’m not sure; but she currently has lots of family in Nova Scotia and France.  

I understand Spain is not France but Mexicans or Colombians can receive expedited Spanish citizenship due to being citizens of a former Spanish colony.


----------



## MacDre

Kicknit22 said:


> Huh??


I would like to know how grandparent is defined.  I think a narrow definition could exclude great-grandparents but a broader definition could include great-grandparents.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> I would like to know how grandparent is defined.  I think a narrow definition could exclude great-grandparents but a broader definition could include great-grandparents.


Coocoo.


----------



## SoccerJones

MacDre said:


> I’m not sure; but she currently has lots of family in Nova Scotia and France.
> 
> I understand Spain is not France but Mexicans or Colombians can receive expedited Spanish citizenship due to being citizens of a former Spanish colony.


Really?  how interesting...I never knew that.  What about other countries, including central and south american countries that were colonized by Spain (if there are/were any)?


----------



## MacDre

SoccerJones said:


> Really?  how interesting...I never knew that.  What about other countries, including central and south american countries that were colonized by Spain (if there are/were any)?


I believe it applies to ALL former Spanish colonies and Brazil.  I think Diego Costa is an example of a Brazilian that qualified.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> I believe it applies to ALL former Spanish colonies and Brazil.  I think Diego Costa is an example of a Brazilian that qualified.


Brazil was never a Spanish Colony.


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> Brazil was never a Spanish Colony.


That’s why I said *and*;  Brazil was a Portuguese colony.


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> That’s why I said *and*;  Brazil was a Portuguese colony.


Portugal does it too?


----------



## MacDre

espola said:


> Portugal does it too?


I’m not sure.  But most countries have a process where you can appeal to the discretion of immigration officials for citizenship.
I don’t think a talented Brazilian would have much difficulty attaining citizenship from Portugal.  Maybe the issue has yet to be raised because most Latin American players have gravitated towards Spain.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> Brazil was never a Spanish Colony.


Portugal was part of Spain for a while, from 1580 to 1640.  During that time, Brazil was Spanish.

Not sure that fact alone is enough to let me play for Spanish national team, but I can dream.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Portugal was part of Spain for a while, from 1580 to 1640.  During that time, Brazil was Spanish.
> 
> Not sure that fact alone is enough to let me play for Spanish national team, but I can dream.


The Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, negotiated by Pope Alexander VI, awarded east-coast Brazil to Portugal.  They eventually expanded westward since there was no real opposition from other European colonialists in the Amazon Basin.


----------



## msoccerm

Yak said:


> That's not necessarily true. My player has 3 citizenships but not eligible to play for one of those countries under FIFA rules.


My experience is with an under 18 player (minor). It's a formal application to FIFA that can only be prepared by a country's federation (e.g. FFA, FA). Solicitors do the application and they are only going to do it if the player has been on their radar and the youth nat team coach wants to select them for an international qualifying tournament or youth nat team camp. You have to show proof of nationality as well as living, studying and being connected to the community in that country for at least *5 *years. Once they receive the application FIFA then contacts the other countries' federations and they need to respond that the player never represented their country, etc. FIFA reviews and then approves/rejects the application. The process took several months for my player. Not sure how it works for older (over 18) players (e.g. Sofia Huerta, Sydney LeRoux).


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> My experience is with an under 18 player (minor). It's a formal application to FIFA that can only be prepared by a country's federation (e.g. FFA, FA). Solicitors do the application and they are only going to do it if the player has been on their radar and the youth nat team coach wants to select them for an international qualifying tournament or youth nat team camp. You have to show proof of nationality as well as living, studying and being connected to the community in that country for at least *5 *years. Once they receive the application FIFA then contacts the other countries' federations and they need to respond that the player never represented their country, etc. FIFA reviews and then approves/rejects the application. The process took several months for my player. Not sure how it works for older (over 18) players (e.g. Sofia Huerta, Sydney LeRoux).


It seems that if one can show a blood connection they qualify and don’t have to wait 5 years.  Looking at the evolution of the Home Nations Agreement, I think the 5 year requirement is only applicable to those with UK citizenship and NO blood ties to a particular nation.

*The education clause*

In February 2009, the Scottish FA's Gordon Smith put forward a proposal that would allow players educated in the FA's territory *who otherwise had no blood connections to the nation* to become eligible to represent the nation. The rule was ratified by FIFA in October 2009.[45]

In June 2010, FIFA approved a minor rewording of the criteria.[32] The introduction of the new clause allows a player to gain eligibility for a British national team if he receives five years of education in the territory of the relevant association:



> d) He has engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association.
> — Home nations agreement


As a direct result of the clause change, England-born Andrew Driver became eligible to play for the Scotland national team in June 2012. Driver was initially only eligible to represent England's national team despite living in Scotland since the age of 11.[46] Andy Dorman, who had previously been ineligible for Wales despite living in Hawarden for most of life became eligible to represent Wales. He was called up in November 2009 and made his début for Wales on 23 May 2010 against Montenegro at the Stadion Gradski.[47]

The criteria for eligibility to represent a home nation is:



> A Player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;c) One of his biological grandparents was born on the territory of the relevant Association;d) He has engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association.
> — Home nations agreement


In July 2012, the Football Association of Wales confirmed that Swansea City F.C.'s Spanish defender Àngel Rangel is not eligible to represent Wales due to the agreement.[4


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> It seems that if one can show a blood connection they qualify and don’t have to wait 5 years.  Looking at the evolution of the Home Nations Agreement, I think the 5 year requirement is only applicable to those with UK citizenship and NO blood ties to a particular nation.
> 
> *The education clause*
> 
> In February 2009, the Scottish FA's Gordon Smith put forward a proposal that would allow players educated in the FA's territory *who otherwise had no blood connections to the nation* to become eligible to represent the nation. The rule was ratified by FIFA in October 2009.[45]
> 
> In June 2010, FIFA approved a minor rewording of the criteria.[32] The introduction of the new clause allows a player to gain eligibility for a British national team if he receives five years of education in the territory of the relevant association:
> 
> 
> As a direct result of the clause change, England-born Andrew Driver became eligible to play for the Scotland national team in June 2012. Driver was initially only eligible to represent England's national team despite living in Scotland since the age of 11.[46] Andy Dorman, who had previously been ineligible for Wales despite living in Hawarden for most of life became eligible to represent Wales. He was called up in November 2009 and made his début for Wales on 23 May 2010 against Montenegro at the Stadion Gradski.[47]
> 
> The criteria for eligibility to represent a home nation is:
> 
> 
> In July 2012, the Football Association of Wales confirmed that Swansea City F.C.'s Spanish defender Àngel Rangel is not eligible to represent Wales due to the agreement.[4


You daughter is not being educated in an English territory.  Grand parents will be determined of those of the player  not any other persons.   You have said you want to come here and learn and then you do not believe it when people give you facts..  you are great .  Do you listen to Jimmy Hendrix or do you hear Jimmy Hendrix?


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> You daughter is not being educated in an English territory.  Grand parents will be determined of those of the player  not any other persons.   You have said you want to come here and learn and then you do not believe it when people give you facts..  you are great .  Do you listen to Jimmy Hendrix or do you hear Jimmy Hendrix?


I believe what was stated.  However, I want emphasize that every situation is different and fact specific.  There have also been recent developments in UK caselaw so the analysis presented above is not close to being dispositive on the issue.


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> I believe what was stated.  However, I want emphasize that every situation is different and fact specific.  There have also been recent developments in UK caselaw so the analysis presented above is not close to being dispositive on the issue.


do you mean cases with respect to citizenship, professional status or representing the UK (or one of the UK countries when they compete under their own flag)? If the latter, I can’t see how UK common law has any say over FIFA’s rules. If the first two, I can see it being relevant if someone wants to play for a pro club in the UK.

as a lawyer and parent of a kid with international aspirations, I’m curious about the legal landscape


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> do you mean cases with respect to citizenship, professional status or representing the UK (or one of the UK countries when they compete under their own flag)? If the latter, I can’t see how UK common law has any say over FIFA’s rules. If the first two, I can see it being relevant if someone wants to play for a pro club in the UK.
> 
> as a lawyer and parent of a kid with international aspirations, I’m curious about the legal landscape


Caselaw regarding citizenship.  I believe there was a recent case out of South Africa that recently made tons of people eligible under 4(c) of the British Nationality Act.
I find it highly unlikely that someone eligible under 4(c) wouldn’t be able to play for a UK team immediately.



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/824429/registration-as-british-citizen-children-of-british-parents-v6.0ext.pdf


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Caselaw regarding citizenship.  I believe there was a recent case out of South Africa that recently made tons of people eligible under 4(c) of the British Nationality Act.
> I find it highly unlikely that someone eligible under 4(c) wouldn’t be able to play for a UK team immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/824429/registration-as-british-citizen-children-of-british-parents-v6.0ext.pdf



1st question..  Wasn't South Africa a protectorate of the Dutch and not the English?  But pretty sure their native language sounds more Germanic.
2nd question.. Why is the law of citizen of a country take more precedent over FIFA Law in the world of soccer.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> 1st question..  Wasn't South Africa a protectorate of the Dutch and not the English?  But pretty sure their native language sounds more Germanic.
> 2nd question.. Why is the law of citizen of a country take more precedent over FIFA Law in the world of soccer.


No.  They speak English in South Africa not Dutch.
Look at the last paragraph on the below document for the authority coach.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> 1st question..  Wasn't South Africa a protectorate of the Dutch and not the English?  But pretty sure their native language sounds more Germanic.
> 2nd question.. Why is the law of citizen of a country take more precedent over FIFA Law in the world of soccer.


Dutch rule over South Africa ended in 1806 when the British took advantage of the turmoil in Europe during the Napoleonic Wars   Many of the remaining population of Dutch settlers and their descendants retreated into the wilderness where for a time they were independent, financed by gold and diamonds found there, until the Boer wars ended in 1902.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> do you mean cases with respect to citizenship, professional status or representing the UK (or one of the UK countries when they compete under their own flag)? If the latter, I can’t see how UK common law has any say over FIFA’s rules. If the first two, I can see it being relevant if someone wants to play for a pro club in the UK.
> 
> as a lawyer and parent of a kid with international aspirations, I’m curious about the legal landscape


Here’s the case:




__





						IN PETITION OF SHELLEY ELIZABETH ROMEIN FOR JUDICIAL REVIEW OF THE DECISION OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT
					





					www.scotcourts.gov.uk


----------



## msoccerm

They speak a lot of languages in SA besides English: Afrikaans, Zulu and Xhosa...

My husband and I are different nationalities and we all have the nationality of the country we live in - which is a top 10 FIFA women's team. She was required by FIFA in 2018 to show proof of education in that country for *5 *years. Schools had to write letters.


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> They speak a lot of languages in SA besides English: Afrikaans, Zulu and Xhosa...
> 
> My husband and I are different nationalities and we all have the nationality of the country we live in - which is a top 10 FIFA women's team. She was required by FIFA in 2018 to show proof of education in that country for *5 *years. Schools had to write letters.


Why didn’t she qualify under the parent/grandparent provision?


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> Here’s the case:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IN PETITION OF SHELLEY ELIZABETH ROMEIN FOR JUDICIAL REVIEW OF THE DECISION OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scotcourts.gov.uk


But this has to do solely with citizenship, right?  I think FIFA has its own rules for eligibility in representing a particular country - citizenship alone is not always sufficient


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> But this has to do solely with citizenship, right?  I think FIFA has its own rules for eligibility in representing a particular country - citizenship alone is not always sufficient


I get it...the arguments have to be made.  Here, you have a group of people that could’ve lived anywhere in the UK “but for” institutionalized sexism.  I think for FIFA to deny a person that qualifies under 4(c) is a continuation of the institutionalized sexism and a violation of international law.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> But this has to do solely with citizenship, right?  I think FIFA has its own rules for eligibility in representing a particular country - citizenship alone is not always sufficient


I also think the Association’s have discretion to modify the home nations agreement (see bold section below) Since the Associations are bound by international law and the highest court in the UK, how could the Association’s legally deny an applicant under 4(c) without violating the law?

16 Nationality entitling players
to represent more than one Association

1 A Player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association for at least two years.

2 Regardless of par. 1 above, *Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit.* Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee.


----------



## msoccerm

MacDre said:


> Why didn’t she qualify under the parent/grandparent provision?


We moved here for work and after a few years applied for the nationality. No relatives in either my family or my husband's had this country's nationality.   

I am not sure why my daughter was required to show proof of living in our country for 5 years instead of 2. Maybe rules are different for minors or because she has 3 nationalities. Or maybe it was the requirement of our country's association (e.g. concacaf, uefa, afc).


----------



## msoccerm

At this point a British passport is a EU passport which opens doors to playing or working in Europe. If your kid is eligible I'd jump on that quick. It might also open doors for Commonwealth countries  e.g. Australia or Canada.


----------



## vegasguy

msoccerm said:


> At this point a British passport is a EU passport which opens doors to playing or working in Europe. If your kid is eligible I'd jump on that quick.



Why would @MacDre  do that.  He daughter is a pro in Mex.  

I still do not understand how MacDre thinks great-grandparents qualify under fifa and how Nova Scotia fits into anything.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> Why would @MacDre  do that.  He daughter is a pro in Mex.
> 
> I still do not understand how MacDre thinks great-grandparents qualify under fifa and how Nova Scotia fits into anything.


Because MacDre is a International Multicultural Mac capable of campaigning straight laced G-A-M-E on multiple continents.  Come on coach, wake your game up and learn about how Mac’s do it up in the Bay!
I also thought we all agreed that my kid went experimental and not pro.

I guess what I’m saying is that there have been recent changes in the law that will require another modification to the Home Nations Agreement or in the alternative adopting a broad definition of grandparent to include great grandparents.  In the alternative, my kid would also qualify to represent any UK team of her choice since her citizenship is through the Bahamas and the Bahamas is no longer part of the UK but still under Queen Elizabeth.

In regards to Nova Scotia, I have not looked into to it but my wife has close family ties.  However, if she can get Canadian citizenship FIFA only has a 2 year residency requirement.


----------



## JumboJack

Just to be clear... This thread has evolved into the hypothetical discussion of a 12 year old kids eligibility for any number of national soccer teams, right?


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> Just to be clear... This thread has evolved into the hypothetical discussion of a 12 year old kids eligibility for any number of national soccer teams, right?


Uh, no.  I would consider it a discussion for all interested in alternative approaches to college sports and the US YNT.  So, the information discussed here is another example as to why D1 soccer is under threat.  There are several Latinos and folks of British descent that could benefit from the information discussed on this thread.
I love haters!


----------



## JumboJack

MacDre said:


> Uh, no.  I would consider it a discussion for all interested in alternative approaches to college sports and the US YNT.  So, the information discussed here is *another example as to why D1 soccer is under threat.*  There are several Latinos and folks of British descent that could benefit from the information discussed on this thread.
> I love haters!


Under threat of nobody wanting to play collage soccer so they can all play for a national team.... Got'cha!


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> Under threat of nobody wanting to play collage soccer so they can all play for a national team.... Got'cha!


They would be qualified to attend university and play in the professional leagues in the EU too.


----------



## JumboJack

MacDre said:


> They would be qualified to attend university and play in the professional leagues in the EU too.


The EU leagues that pay about as much as Starbucks does...


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> The EU leagues that pay about as much as Starbucks does...


They can attend university and get paid.  They also get the experience of living abroad.
Can you name any college programs that allow their student athletes to study abroad extensively and get paid for playing soccer?


----------



## JumboJack

MacDre said:


> They can attend university and get paid.  They also get the experience of living abroad.
> Can you name any college programs that allow their student athletes to study abroad extensively and get paid for playing soccer?


The out of pocket cost for the 0.01 percent that would be able to do that would be huge. But you keep on keeping the dream alive. I guess somebody has to do it.


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> The out of pocket cost for the 0.01 percent that would be able to do that would be huge. But you keep on keeping the dream alive. I guess somebody has to do it.


You don’t know what you are talking about.  Depending on how it’s done, it could definitely be cheaper than attending a school like Pepperdine or USD for example.  It’s just another options that families should explore.

Pepperdine-53k;
Oxford-12k


----------



## JumboJack

MacDre said:


> You don’t know what you are talking about.  Depending on how it’s done, it could definitely be cheaper than attending a school like Pepperdine or USD for example.  It’s just another options that families should explore.
> 
> Pepperdine-53k;
> Oxford-12k


You're right. Your model is MUCH better that playing collage soccer in the US. And then they will be able to say they are "pro" soccer players.... Being that there are just as many "pro" women's team in Europe compared the the number of collages in the US... SMH.


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> You're right. Your model is MUCH better that playing collage soccer in the US. And then they will be able to say they are "pro" soccer players.... Being that there are just as many "pro" women's team in Europe compared the the number of collages in the US... SMH.


Now you’re throwing a tantrum and distorting the facts.  I said it’s an alternate approach that should be considered.  I never said it was MUCH better.  New options recently came available to many families, are you suggesting that they shouldn’t consider ALL of their options including those abroad?


----------



## JumboJack

MacDre said:


> Now you’re throwing a tantrum and distorting the facts.  I said it’s an alternate approach that should be considered.  I never said it was MUCH better.  New options recently came available to many families, are you suggesting that they shouldn’t consider ALL of their options including those abroad?


Like I said man... Keep living the "pro" dream. Someone has to do it.


----------



## MacDre

JumboJack said:


> Like I said man... Keep living the "pro" dream. Someone has to do it.


I’m not living the pro dream.  I’m just trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents.


----------



## jpeter

Wow D2 fall sports suspended:
CCAA SUSPENDS NCAA COMPETITION FOR FALL 2020








						CCAA Suspends NCAA Competition for Fall 2020
					

CCAA member institutions have determined that NCAA sport competition will not occur during the fall of 2020.




					goccaa.org
				




Will D3 or D1 follow?  the UC system maybe next


----------



## CrazyTown

jpeter said:


> Wow D2 fall sports suspended:
> CCAA SUSPENDS NCAA COMPETITION FOR FALL 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCAA Suspends NCAA Competition for Fall 2020
> 
> 
> CCAA member institutions have determined that NCAA sport competition will not occur during the fall of 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goccaa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will D3 or D1 follow?  the UC system maybe next


Seems like a quick and rash decision preceded by the CSU announcement! IMO the CSU system will go bankrupt on enrollment issues alone with this model!  I wonder how leagues with many privates react like WCC and PacWest


----------



## full90

UC system to announce same this week per sources


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> Because MacDre is a International Multicultural Mac capable of campaigning straight laced G-A-M-E on multiple continents.  Come on coach, wake your game up and learn about how Mac’s do it up in the Bay!
> I also thought we all agreed that my kid went experimental and not pro.
> 
> I guess what I’m saying is that there have been recent changes in the law that will require another modification to the Home Nations Agreement or in the alternative adopting a broad definition of grandparent to include great grandparents.  In the alternative, my kid would also qualify to represent any UK team of her choice since her citizenship is through the Bahamas and the Bahamas is no longer part of the UK but still under Queen Elizabeth.
> 
> In regards to Nova Scotia, I have not looked into to it but my wife has close family ties.  However, if she can get Canadian citizenship FIFA only has a 2 year residency requirement.


 You have mad game for sure..  but your hopes of citizenship v fifa law following your desires are mad too.   Experimental or pro.. Porsche or porsh you choose.. glad to see you


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> They would be qualified to attend university and play in the professional leagues in the EU too.


When did you become Blatter... just curious.


----------



## MacDre

vegasguy said:


> When did you become Blatter... just curious.


No, Blatter was shady.  I just understand how to read the law and statues.  I am making people aware of recent developments in the law that may benefit their families.  I only made the information available after specific questions were asked.  Coach, would you let your kid go to Oxford for 12k per year (12k x 3yrs = 36k)?
Coach, keeping info from the peeps is shady!


----------



## Surfref

My DD goes to SDSU and received notice that most classes will be online in the fall. Some programs will have in-person classes.  She is in the kinesiology-athletic trainer program and was told they will more than likely have in-person classes, because they go through a lot of hands on training during their senior year. Hopefully they still have some D1 sports, so she gets to work on the athletes and not just her classmates. She will be working with SDSU and USD athletes, which are both D1 schools. She is really bummed because she was supposed to have a summer internship with the San Diego Padres. She and her friends in the K-AT program are not big fans of the online classes. Some of the professors are good at the online instruction, but most absolutely sucked. The good thing is that she is organized and motivated and has always done well in online classes.


----------



## vegasguy

MacDre said:


> No, Blatter was shady.  I just understand how to read the law and statues.  I am making people aware of recent developments in the law that may benefit their families.  I only made the information available after specific questions were asked.  Coach, would you let your kid go to Oxford for 12k per year (12k x 3yrs = 36k)?
> Coach, keeping info from the peeps is shady!


I have never withheld info from my players. As a matter of fact we go into detail of eligibility, testing dates, Fafsa, and social media on a consistent basis.  We arE having one on ones with player and parent via zoom.  

I would let my kid go to Oxford. The question is does the kid want to go to Oxford.  You see his path is not for me to choose.  I only guide.  He even chose his high school.


----------



## full90

Surfref: We have two family friends that went through the SDSU program. They both loved it and have awesome jobs now (well not now now but in the real world). One worked with w soccer and loved it (said the head trainer for w soccer is awesome and helpful and the coaching staff is the best on campus). The other worked with water polo and baseball. 
congrats to you. We got to hear for years how much they loved it. Hope she can get close to a full experience.


----------



## Woobie06

CrazyTown said:


> Seems like a quick and rash decision preceded by the CSU announcement! IMO the CSU system will go bankrupt on enrollment issues alone with this model!  I wonder how leagues with many privates react like WCC and PacWest


This is what happens when the blind lead the blind, or the lunatics run the asylum.  Take your pick.  Very sad.  It’s very unfortunate.  I heard somebody float the idea the other day that this may push a lot of kids to defer enrollment if they can and go the JC route to start.  If classes are remote, and online I would be in favor of this for my kids for some of their Frosh Gen Ed courses if they were in this spot.  $$$$ is gonna get really tight at some of the smaller, less endowed universities.


----------



## vegasguy

Woobie06 said:


> This is what happens when the blind lead the blind, or the lunatics run the asylum.  Take your pick.  Very sad.  It’s very unfortunate.  I heard somebody float the idea the other day that this may push a lot of kids to defer enrollment if they can and go the JC route to start.


My player is class of 2021.  A gap year may be in the new normal (hate that term) for my player.  Let them play u19 club one more year and get a year of cores out of the way at community College.  He is a young 03 any way


----------



## Surfref

USD announced today that they plan to have students on campus for classes in the fall.  They also plan to have their D1 sports.  We also have a friend who is on the PLNU faculty.  She said they are planning to have students on campus for classes.  She didn’t know about sports.  Both are expensive private universities.


----------



## jpeter

Surfref said:


> USD announced today that they plan to have students on campus for classes in the fall.  They also plan to have their D1 sports.  We also have a friend who is on the PLNU faculty.  She said they are planning to have students on campus for classes.  She didn’t know about sports.  Both are expensive private universities.


Our USD friend told us they plan to start 2-3 weeks earlier in mid August and have on campus testing.  Will offer online where you can alternate between the two,   have fewer students in the dorms.

San Diego State even though Cal states will be online plan on having fall sport last heard, since their D1 the CCAA suspension doesn't apply.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

My dd had a call with her team today.  They are still on track to have on campus classes and a soccer season.  Likely will split the CAA conference into two pods (North and South).  Play home and away within the pod and have a mini tourney among the top for teams.   Also non conference games will be more regional this year since no one is flying.   Social distancing and cleaning protocols will be put in place for locker room, training room and weight room.  Target is normal 8/3 report date but they are seeing if they could get the team together earlier.   She said the coach is more optomistic that the season will occur.


----------



## dk_b

Simisoccerfan said:


> My dd had a call with her team today.  They are still on track to have on campus classes and a soccer season.  Likely will split the CAA conference into two pods (North and South).  Play home and away within the pod and have a mini tourney among the top for teams.   Also non conference games will be more regional this year since no one is flying.   Social distancing and cleaning protocols will be put in place for locker room, training room and weight room.  Target is normal 8/3 report date but they are seeing if they could get the team together earlier.   She said the coach is more optomistic that the season will occur.


I can't remember if I read this in an NCAA release or just heard it through the grapevine but w/cancellation of spring, it would seem that reporting/training as a team prior to August may be authorized (obviously there will be specific guidance on that).

I hope that there is a (safe) fall season.


----------



## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> No, Blatter was shady.  I just understand how to read the law and statues.  I am making people aware of recent developments in the law that may benefit their families.  I only made the information available after specific questions were asked.  Coach, would you let your kid go to Oxford for 12k per year (12k x 3yrs = 36k)?
> Coach, keeping info from the peeps is shady!


I'd pay $12k a year for my daughter to go to Oxford.


----------



## vegasguy

@MacDre https://www.soccertoday.com/nyus-kim-wyant-on-the-value-of-collegiate-soccer/

Something for you to chew on.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> @MacDre https://www.soccertoday.com/nyus-kim-wyant-on-the-value-of-collegiate-soccer/
> 
> Something for you to chew on.


What was the point of that?


----------



## UOP

Horgan: Notre Dame de Namur appears to be in a grim death spiral
					

These are dark days for Notre Dame de Namur University — and the worst may be yet to come.




					www.mercurynews.com


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> What was the point of that?


Macdre has labeled college soccer as useless and it should be a club sport.  Just a different view.


----------



## gotothebushes

UOP said:


> Horgan: Notre Dame de Namur appears to be in a grim death spiral
> 
> 
> These are dark days for Notre Dame de Namur University — and the worst may be yet to come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mercurynews.com


Sad!


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> Macdre has labeled college soccer as useless and it should be a club sport.  Just a different view.


It's nice to see soccertoday publishing something besides soccer club press releases, but this one seems to be pretty empty on examination.  The coach sold Dianne an exciting story about a D3 team with an 8-8-2 record.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> It's nice to see soccertoday publishing something besides soccer club press releases, but this one seems to be pretty empty on examination.  The coach sold Dianne an exciting story about a D3 team with an 8-8-2 record.


I liked it.  Nothing wrong with some some cotton candy articles to life everyone’s mood.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> It's nice to see soccertoday publishing something besides soccer club press releases, but this one seems to be pretty empty on examination.  The coach sold Dianne an exciting story about a D3 team with an 8-8-2 record.



Nothing wrong with playing D3 soccer either..  it is a next level..


----------



## Copa9

jpeter said:


> Our USD friend told us they plan to start 2-3 weeks earlier in mid August and have on campus testing.  Will offer online where you can alternate between the two,   have fewer students in the dorms.
> 
> San Diego State even though Cal states will be online plan on having fall sport last heard, since their D1 the CCAA suspension doesn't apply.


Hard to justify paying 50-60 thousand to have classes on line.  Crazy times. Living in the dorm freshman year was the most fun of all four years. Sad for the kids who won't have a chance to experience that.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Being freshmen and living  the dorms is the best college experience you can have.  If my daughter was going to be a freshman I would advise her to take a gap year or defer.  Makes zero sense to pay big money for online courses.  You can do that at CC.  This all sucks


----------



## Desert Hound

eastbaysoccer said:


> Makes zero sense to pay big money for online courses.


Hey maybe they can put cameras up in the empty dorms. And that way when the kids are done with online classes, they can "check in" to their dorm room virtually 

It does suck for sure. And no terribly good reason to pay a lot of money for online courses to some far away uni when you can save cash closer to home at a uni or do the cc route for some of the freshman/soph filler/required classes.


----------



## zags77

Atlantic 10 Men's and Women's to play modified schedule in the fall....









						Atlantic 10 Conference to play modified soccer schedule this fall
					

The Atlantic 10 Conference has announced modified schedules.




					www.soccerwire.com


----------



## futboldad1

Simisoccerfan said:


> My dd had a call with her team today.  They are still on track to have on campus classes and a soccer season.  Likely will split the CAA conference into two pods (North and South).  Play home and away within the pod and have a mini tourney among the top for teams.   Also non conference games will be more regional this year since no one is flying.   Social distancing and cleaning protocols will be put in place for locker room, training room and weight room.  Target is normal 8/3 report date but they are seeing if they could get the team together earlier.   She said the coach is more optomistic that the season will occur.


This is cool to hear.... with common sense we can get back to sports soon..... g luck to your DD in her FR year!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

futboldad1 said:


> This is cool to hear.... with common sense we can get back to sports soon..... g luck to your DD in her FR year!


Thanks though she will be a Soph


----------



## Firmino9

MacDre said:


> As real as it gets homeboy.  College soccer is the pinnacle of rich kid entitlement.  The USWNT is the pinnacle to success loser.  If your kid doesn’t make it, it’s time to move on to something that you’re are talented in.
> Receiving the second place trophy of college soccer while pretending that they are soccer players instead of focusing on education and career is the pinnacle of stupidity my friend.
> 
> I asked a Power 5 coach what he hated most about his job.  His response was all the spoiled entitled young adults that they have to bench for the first time because their parents financed the lie that they were legit soccer players.
> 
> If you’re concerned about relationships, I think you’ll have more opportunities for relationships by playing club and joining a sorority/fraternity.


Lol ... then tell me what women besides the .001 percent (National Team). Make any type of career playing pro soccer. I will wait.  To the person who said college is a fake pinnacle ... I would be stoked if my kid was playing at that high of a level and also getting education paid for.


----------



## Firmino9

Ellejustus said:


> At least "Macdre the troll" has been around when I came on the scene back in July.  This guy just signed up to be a member of the socal forum.  You guys, this is a great debate about the top 2% of the US soccer players and should they be lobbied and sold college. We can't have little Sally or Timmy digging a ditch for a living.  Man or man, we need Mike Rowe to help some of you.  So much we have to change here.  College or bust and most parents live their lives in fear that their kid will become a ditch digger.  Learn how to juggle a soccer ball and get into a great school.  OK!!!


Came on to the scene?  Like the forum scenes  is this a joke.


----------



## espola

Firmino9 said:


> Lol ... then tell me what women besides the .001 percent (National Team). Make any type of career playing pro soccer. I will wait.  To the person who said college is a fake pinnacle ... I would be stoked if my kid was playing at that high of a level and also getting education paid for.


It's not playing pro that makes the living, it's the coaching jobs afterward.


----------



## Ellejustus

Firmino9 said:


> Came on to the scene?  Like the forum scenes  is this a joke.


Welcome to socal soccer forum.  34 days is good.  No joke.  I came on here back in 2013 and stayed until 2015 when the two clubs my kid played for told me no posting on the forum or else.  I can do whatever I want now.  What club you from?


----------



## outside!

Ellejustus said:


> Welcome to socal soccer forum.  34 days is good.  No joke.  I came on here back in 2013 and stayed until 2015 when the two clubs my kid played for told me no posting on the forum or else.  I can do whatever I want now.  What club you from?


A club telling parents not to post on the forums is a classic tell that it is time to look for a new club. What club told you that?


----------



## Ellejustus

outside! said:


> A club telling parents not to post on the forums is a classic tell that it is time to look for a new club. What club told you that?


Hahahaha.  That was the past and we have all learned from our past control issues some clubs tried to have on parents.


----------



## gkrent

You know you have been on the forum a long time when you can remember when members ran onto fields making scenes and other members heckling kids IRL from behind goals.  Good times, back in the day!!!  Things are so tame now.


----------



## Mile High Dad

Well this looks like some good news 








						NCAA Division I soccer teams eligible to begin activities on June 1
					

NCAA Division I athletes can begin voluntary workouts on June 1.




					www.soccerwire.com


----------



## vegasguy

App State cancelled their Men's program and the NCAA recruiting period has extended its dark period to July 31.  No campus visits..  I wonder how that affects University ID camps.


----------



## GT45

vegasguy said:


> App State cancelled their Men's program and the NCAA recruiting period has extended its dark period to July 31.  No campus visits..  I wonder how that affects University ID camps.


It means no campus visit meetings with coaches. So no ID camps during that period. The coaches cannot meet with a prospect in person on or off campus, and they cannot go out and scout games. Basically they can call, text, and email but no in person interaction.


----------



## jpeter

3  more smaller universities cut soccer but not much news on the D1's but USC









						USC reverses robust fall reopening plans, asks students to stay home for online classes
					

Only 10% to 20% of classes will be offered in person and on campus, reversing USC's original decision to reopen for the fall semester.




					www.latimes.com
				




With football season up in the air have to wonder about soccer now, will that get moved or rescheduled somehow?









						Ivy League’s impending decision could be a ‘big domino’ for college football
					

As concern grows about the viability of the season starting on schedule, this week could help set a precedent.




					theathletic.com


----------



## full90

That will cost U$C big time. It’s not worth $70k to begin with, let alone via online classes.


----------



## El Cap

Based on what Harvard, Princeton and Yale are doing, fall athletics in the Ivy League seem almost impossible at this point.









						Harvard and Princeton announce plans to bring back students for the fall semester | CNN
					

Harvard University and Princeton University announced they will be bringing back students to their respective campuses this fall, but not everyone will be returning.




					www.cnn.com
				




From the Harvard site:
We anticipate that the Ivy League will issue a decision on July 8 about fall sports competitions and training. Even in the absence of this guidance, we acknowledge that our medium density plan will necessarily place limits on what athletic activities are possible at Harvard this fall.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Redirect Notice


----------



## Copa9

eastbaysoccer said:


> Redirect Notice


Ivy's just announced no fall sports including football.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Stanford dropping 11 sports, but not soccer

The school will discontinue men’s and women’s fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men’s rowing, co-ed and women’s sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men’s volleyball and wrestling after the 2020-21 academic year. Stanford also is eliminating 20 support staff positions.









						'Heartbreaking day' — Stanford drops 11 sports to cut costs
					

Stanford is dropping 11 sports amid financial difficulties caused by the coronavirus pandemic




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## gotothebushes

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stanford dropping 11 sports, but not soccer
> 
> The school will discontinue men’s and women’s fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men’s rowing, co-ed and women’s sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men’s volleyball and wrestling after the 2020-21 academic year. Stanford also is eliminating 20 support staff positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Heartbreaking day' — Stanford drops 11 sports to cut costs
> 
> 
> Stanford is dropping 11 sports amid financial difficulties caused by the coronavirus pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


 I saw that this morning! Crazy. Wonder what will happen to all those athletic scholarships after 2021.


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## kickingandscreaming

gotothebushes said:


> I saw that this morning! Crazy. Wonder what will happen to all those athletic scholarships after 2021.


I heard they were honoring the existing scholarships and also assisting in the placement if the athlete wants to transfer. Is that what you mean?


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## Ellejustus

Copa9 said:


> Ivy's just announced no fall sports including football.


The true leaders of our country.


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## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Stanford dropping 11 sports, but not soccer
> 
> The school will discontinue men’s and women’s fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men’s rowing, co-ed and women’s sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men’s volleyball and wrestling after the 2020-21 academic year. Stanford also is eliminating 20 support staff positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Heartbreaking day' — Stanford drops 11 sports to cut costs
> 
> 
> Stanford is dropping 11 sports amid financial difficulties caused by the coronavirus pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


How shortsighted - we will never win another Olympic medal in synchronized swimming.


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## Desert Hound

espola said:


> How shortsighted - we will never win another Olympic medal in synchronized swimming.


Terrible. 

I am going to miss Monday Night Synchronized Swimming with Al Michaels and Howard


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## Simisoccerfan

only 3 D1 schools even offered Synchronized Swimming, 15 offered Sailing, 14 offered Squash, 23 offered Men's volleyball


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## pokergod

kickingandscreaming said:


> I heard they were honoring the existing scholarships and also assisting in the placement if the athlete wants to transfer. Is that what you mean?


Big Ten only playing conference games in football.  That means the MAC conference, for instance, just lost over 10 games at Big Ten schools that pay mid six figures each.  The MAC schools will now have to begin cutting sports.  Dominoes, unfortunately, are falling.


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## MakeAPlay

College sports are for the most part not going to happen in the fall.  We haven't even gotten past the first wave.  In order for the NWSL to pull off their tournament they had to isolate 240 or so players and staff and media and test them about 4-5 times per week and make them exist in a bubble.  As the Orlando Pride showed by having to withdraw from the tournament because 33% of their travel party tested positive for Covid.  9 other people got Covid because of one player that went out bar hopping.  Multiply that by thousands and it is easy to realize it isn't possible.  It will be tough for the NFL season to even happen and there is no way that it happens with fans.

This is going to be a year without college sports.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MakeAPlay said:


> College sports are for the most part not going to happen in the fall.  We haven't even gotten past the first wave.  In order for the NWSL to pull off their tournament they had to isolate 240 or so players and staff and media and test them about 4-5 times per week and make them exist in a bubble.  As the Orlando Pride showed by having to withdraw from the tournament because 33% of their travel party tested positive for Covid.  9 other people got Covid because of one player that went out bar hopping.  Multiply that by thousands and it is easy to realize it isn't possible.  It will be tough for the NFL season to even happen and there is no way that it happens with fans.
> 
> This is going to be a year without college sports.


I guess we will see what happens.  It might be different in different areas of the country.  Right now we have a report date of 7/27.  A very detailed plan that involves testing, isolation, working in pods and other stuff that seems very similar to the bubble NWSL is doing.  Also no games till early September.  At a minimum it seems like her team is well prepared to practice up until all of the students return to campus.  Then we will see what happens as they move into September.  At least the infection rate is way lower in her schools area.


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## Desert Hound

pokergod said:


> Big Ten only playing conference games in football. That means the MAC conference, for instance, just lost over 10 games at Big Ten schools that pay mid six figures each. The MAC schools will now have to begin cutting sports. Dominoes, unfortunately, are falling.


Does anyone stop and ask them why? 

The assumption is that somehow playing conference games is safer vs non conference games? 

So Michigan flying to Iowa is somehow safer vs Michigan flying to play Texas?


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## Messi>CR7

Desert Hound said:


> Does anyone stop and ask them why?
> 
> The assumption is that somehow playing conference games is safer vs non conference games?
> 
> So Michigan flying to Iowa is somehow safer vs Michigan flying to play Texas?


No, it's for flexibility within the same conference.  For example, we can reasonably expect some games will be pushed out or cancelled due to kids testing positive.  It's much easier to move schedule around if you have control over the entire league schedule.


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## MakeAPlay

Simisoccerfan said:


> I guess we will see what happens.  It might be different in different areas of the country.  Right now we have a report date of 7/27.  A very detailed plan that involves testing, isolation, working in pods and other stuff that seems very similar to the bubble NWSL is doing.  Also no games till early September.  At a minimum it seems like her team is well prepared to practice up until all of the students return to campus.  Then we will see what happens as they move into September.  At least the infection rate is way lower in her schools area.


I live in San Diego and we only have a 4% positive rate, which is below the CDC and WHO guidelines, and the positive case numbers are setting records every other day.  Until there is 95%+ compliance with masks and social distancing it is going to be hard to get the numbers under control again without another lockdown or a vaccine.

The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 took 3 years to run it's course.  If history is our guide we should realize that we aren't going to be back to normal until late 2022.  

Good luck to you and your player.


----------



## Ellejustus

MakeAPlay said:


> I live in San Diego and we only have a 4% positive rate, which is below the CDC and WHO guidelines, and the positive case numbers are setting records every other day.  Until there is 95%+ compliance with masks and social distancing it is going to be hard to get the numbers under control again without another lockdown or a vaccine.
> 
> The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 took 3 years to run it's course.  If history is our guide we should realize that we aren't going to be back to normal until late 2022.
> 
> Good luck to you and your player.


Let's all go down for the luck down.  I thought in March 2,000,000 would die.  I also thought healthy people of all ages would get the corona and start gasping for air and just die.  So far, that is not happenning.  Half the people WHO are on the death list were already dead or about to die.  So take half of the deaths off as Corona deaths.  Check this Map, my Dr friend from Stanford also said he thinks 15-20% already had or has the virus.  So if 10 people go to the ER today for a broken leg, chest pain, car accident or anything not Corona related, 1 or 2 will test positive or they will suspect they had or have the virus.  They are now Corona patients.  If they came in gasping for air and died, 1 or 2 will already have corona and is now a corona death.  That's how my math works.


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## Mystery Train

MakeAPlay said:


> College sports are for the most part not going to happen in the fall.  We haven't even gotten past the first wave.  In order for the NWSL to pull off their tournament they had to isolate 240 or so players and staff and media and test them about 4-5 times per week and make them exist in a bubble.  As the Orlando Pride showed by having to withdraw from the tournament because 33% of their travel party tested positive for Covid.  9 other people got Covid because of one player that went out bar hopping.  Multiply that by thousands and it is easy to realize it isn't possible.  It will be tough for the NFL season to even happen and there is no way that it happens with fans.
> 
> This is going to be a year without college sports.


I think you're right.  Man, you must be glad your kid got to finish her college career.  Mine lost the last season of her youth career, graduation, prom, and now it looks like her first college season, and with on-line classes, won't have anything like a real college experience.  I just can't see how schools are going to possibly pull off fall sports.  The big test is going to be what happens in the SEC.  There's so much money tied up in football, you know they're going to do all they can to still hold games, but you couldn't pay me to go to a game and sit, crammed together with thousands of other people right now.


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## Kicker4Life

MakeAPlay said:


> The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 took 3 years to run it's course.  If history is our guide we should realize that we aren't going to be back to normal until late 2022.


To be fair, science has come a LONG way since 1918.  I’m willing to place a friendly wager of 1942, we have a Fall College season in 2021.

only caveat being the beer we enjoy when handing over the bottle.....winner has to buy that round.


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## Dubs

Kicker4Life said:


> To be fair, science has come a LONG way since 1918.  I’m willing to place a friendly wager of 1942, we have a Fall College season in 2021.
> 
> only caveat being the beer we enjoy when handing over the bottle.....winner has to buy that round.


I sure hope you're right about that one, as that's when my DD is supposed to show up on campus ready to play.


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## dk_b

I'd be shocked if there were no season in fall 2021 (even if it looks different from the past) - I think that the NCAA will do everything it can to play fall 2020 sports in spring 2021 (of course, perhaps not every college can absorb the facility use) and then back to normal for the 2021-22 academic year.  While I'm not expecting a vaccine in the near future - or even at all - I believe there's a reasonable expectation of therapeutics being available.  Coronavirus is not a new thing (we've known about them for more than 90 years), even if Covid-19 is a novel coronavirus.  The more conservative scientists that I try to listen to (small "c" conservative) give me some confidence.  If there are adequate therapeutics, we still may not return to "life as we knew it" but there will be a bit more normalcy w/in continued efforts to reduce transmission.  If that happens, I think sports will be on although it may be w/o 100,000 crowds for football or shoulder-to-shoulder fans at a college soccer game at UCLA or Stanford.

More ominously, and even if things are closer to normal in 2021, if there can't be any football for the entire academic year, I'd expect there to be a complete reshaping of college sports. The NCAA is losing so much money (March Madness '20 + Football '20 + March Madness '21) and the specific athletic departments are already struggling - it's hard to imagine a scenario in which scores of sports are not dropped or the # of scholarships/sport reduced . If there is no football in the spring, I doubt there will be soccer in the spring and then I go back to what I wrote upthread: verbal offers may take on a different character and/or NLIs will be delayed since both the schedule and the $$$ available will become great unknowns. It really stinks all the way around.


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## Ellejustus

dk_b said:


> I'd be shocked if there were no season in fall 2021 (even if it looks different from the past) - I think that the NCAA will do everything it can to play fall 2020 sports in spring 2021 (of course, perhaps not every college can absorb the facility use) and then back to normal for the 2021-22 academic year.  While I'm not expecting a vaccine in the near future - or even at all - I believe there's a reasonable expectation of therapeutics being available.  Coronavirus is not a new thing (we've known about them for more than 90 years), even if Covid-19 is a novel coronavirus.  The more conservative scientists that I try to listen to (small "c" conservative) give me some confidence.  If there are adequate therapeutics, we still may not return to "life as we knew it" but there will be a bit more normalcy w/in continued efforts to reduce transmission.  If that happens, I think sports will be on although it may be w/o 100,000 crowds for football or shoulder-to-shoulder fans at a college soccer game at UCLA or Stanford.
> 
> More ominously, and even if things are closer to normal in 2021, if there can't be any football for the entire academic year, I'd expect there to be a complete reshaping of college sports. The NCAA is losing so much money (March Madness '20 + Football '20 + March Madness '21) and the specific athletic departments are already struggling - it's hard to imagine a scenario in which scores of sports are not dropped or the # of scholarships/sport reduced . If there is no football in the spring, I doubt there will be soccer in the spring and then I go back to what I wrote upthread: verbal offers may take on a different character and/or NLIs will be delayed since both the schedule and the $$$ available will become great unknowns. It really stinks all the way around.


It stinks to high heaven but we need to error on caution here in Cali. Cleats and ball are in storage.  New things to do and see.  Peace bro.


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## kickingandscreaming

dk_b said:


> While I'm not expecting a vaccine in the near future - or even at all - I believe there's a reasonable expectation of therapeutics being available.


I'm curious as to why you don't expect a vaccine. There's an enormous investment of human effort and money and reasonably promising initial results.


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## dk_b

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm curious as to why you don't expect a vaccine. There's an enormous investment of human effort and money and reasonably promising initial results.


Sorry - that was overstated. First, I'm not a scientist but I simply try to read and listen where scientists backed up by data have something to say so my hopes/expectations/speculations are those of a lay-person. I do expect a vaccine at some point but what I meant by "or even at all" was that there are some virus for which we may have therapeutics but no vaccines (HIV, for example) and that could be the case with this or any virus. I just expect therapeutics to be available first.  The "a vaccine in 12 to 18 months" that we heard so often around March and April seems really, really fast for a vaccine that is effective and safe and available for wide-spread use but if that were still the timeline, maybe we'd get something in April 2021 - that would be amazing.  But it could be years from now as well.  But it seems more realistic that they will figure out some type of therapeutic so that if we are able lower transmission rates and treat those who become symptomatic, we will not have the same health nightmare that we do now (I think Feb 6 was the first death in CA - we are at 130,000+ in 5 months.  Fuuuuuuuuck).


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## pokergod

Desert Hound said:


> Does anyone stop and ask them why?
> 
> The assumption is that somehow playing conference games is safer vs non conference games?
> 
> So Michigan flying to Iowa is somehow safer vs Michigan flying to play Texas?


Good questions, makes no sense what so ever.  I just heard USC changed course and is now going virtual in fall.  I for one am shocked that the NCAA and athletic directors are making dumb decisions.  Normally, the NCAA and its 300 rubber stampers that make six figures a year only care about the student athlete.


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## kickingandscreaming

dk_b said:


> Sorry - that was overstated. First, I'm not a scientist but I simply try to read and listen where scientists backed up by data have something to say so my hopes/expectations/speculations are those of a lay-person. I do expect a vaccine at some point but what I meant by "or even at all" was that there are some virus for which we may have therapeutics but no vaccines (HIV, for example) and that could be the case with this or any virus. I just expect therapeutics to be available first.  The "a vaccine in 12 to 18 months" that we heard so often around March and April seems really, really fast for a vaccine that is effective and safe and available for wide-spread use but if that were still the timeline, maybe we'd get something in April 2021 - that would be amazing.  But it could be years from now as well.  But it seems more realistic that they will figure out some type of therapeutic so that if we are able lower transmission rates and treat those who become symptomatic, we will not have the same health nightmare that we do now (I think Feb 6 was the first death in CA - we are at 130,000+ in 5 months.  Fuuuuuuuuck).


Yes, the 12 to 18 month timeline very fast. I follow the Times link below. Just hoping that the AstraZeneca vaccine that is in Phase III trials in South Africa and Brazil goes well.









						Coronavirus Vaccine Tracker
					

A look at all the vaccines that have reached trials in humans.



					www.nytimes.com


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## pokergod

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm curious as to why you don't expect a vaccine. There's an enormous investment of human effort and money and reasonably promising initial results.


Even if there is one, 20% may not use it since they think soros or gates is behind it.  If 20% doesn't take it, it doesn't go away.  That is why TB made a comeback for the first time in 50 years.


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## kickingandscreaming

pokergod said:


> Even if there is one, 20% may not use it since they think soros or gates is behind it.  If 20% doesn't take it, it doesn't go away.  That is why TB made a comeback for the first time in 50 years.


Those people won't be a problem. They'll still be in their basements getting deliveries dropped at their door. 

Some experts estimate 70% for herd immunity. At this point, I'll just be thrilled to have a viable vaccine. If a bunch of people don't want to get the vaccine, they can get antibodies the old-fashioned way.

Interesting that you mention, TB. CNN just posted something about one of the TB vaccines apparently giving some level of protection against COVID. Scientists are researching its possible use for COVID.









						More evidence emerges that a TB vaccine might help fight coronavirus | CNN
					

Can a TB vaccine help fight Covid-19? There's more evidence the BCG vaccine mightprotect against coronavirus.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Those people won't be a problem. They'll still be in their basements getting deliveries dropped at their door.
> 
> Some experts estimate 70% for herd immunity. At this point, I'll just be thrilled to have a viable vaccine. *If a bunch of people don't want to get the vaccine, they can get antibodies the old-fashioned way.*
> 
> Interesting that you mention, TB. CNN just posted something about one of the TB vaccines apparently giving some level of protection against COVID. Scientists are researching its possible use for COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More evidence emerges that a TB vaccine might help fight coronavirus | CNN
> 
> 
> Can a TB vaccine help fight Covid-19? There's more evidence the BCG vaccine mightprotect against coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


That's us.  My wife just wont do it.  I support her.


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## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> That's us.  My wife just wont do it.  I support her.


You are a good husband and I'd like to think I'd do the same. What is our choice, anyway? "Whatever you want, honey" is my "go to" response.


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## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> You are a good husband and I'd like to think I'd do the same. What is our choice, anyway? "Whatever you want, honey" is my "go to" response.


I watched my wife eat like a rabbit for over 20 years.  I swear she is never sick.  No infections.  No flu, no fevers.  I swear.  Why should she have to inject poison like a virus from Wuhan that we really no nothing about?  Even if Dr Fauci said it was perfectly safe and he would inject it himself she said no way.  I dont blame her and I believe she deserves the right.


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## dk_b

Pac-12 CEO Group announces decision to schedule conference-only play for several Fall sports & to delay move toward mandatory athletics activities
					

SAN FRANCISCO – The Pac-12 CEO Group announced today that the fall season for several Pac-12 sports, including football, men’s and women’s soccer and women’s volleyball, would schedule Conference-only games, and that it is delaying the start of mandatory athletic activities, until a series of...




					pac-12.com


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## Ellejustus

dk_b said:


> Pac-12 CEO Group announces decision to schedule conference-only play for several Fall sports & to delay move toward mandatory athletics activities
> 
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO – The Pac-12 CEO Group announced today that the fall season for several Pac-12 sports, including football, men’s and women’s soccer and women’s volleyball, would schedule Conference-only games, and that it is delaying the start of mandatory athletic activities, until a series of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pac-12.com


Well, that sounds a little positive.  Better than no soccer.  I super super hope they get to play.


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## younothat




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## Copa9

younothat said:


>


Maybe they will allow only Freshman and Jr. for first game, second game for soph. and seniors, third game freshman and jrs. etc etc. half student body each game. Space them out. If they even allow them at all. Or just freshman first game, soph. second game, jr. third game, seniors fourth game, etc. etc. etc Who knows. It will be interesting.


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## eastbaysoccer

This is a redshirt year for all freshman.


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## eastbaysoccer

I’m confident we will have more treatments for COVID by this time next year that will allow us to live with the virus.  I expect a fall season n 2021.

It’s unlikely we will have a vaccine for spring soccer.


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## warrior49

I have to ask, what is the point of forcing a season now? My DD's team was told that IF there is a season, they can't use the locker room, can't eat at the athletic cafeteria, can't use the weight room, can't train more than five at a time on the field, no training room or facilities will be open, and all Fall classes are online. So they want these players to go back to campus with all these restrictions and sit in their dorms for online classes to play in an empty stadium? I can tell you that the players I've talked to aren't down with playing an abridged season like that, especially the seniors who are in their last year. Most are already talking about redshirting already. I say just call it, tentatively push back to Spring, and worst case Fall 2021.


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## Messi>CR7

warrior49 said:


> I have to ask, what is the point of forcing a season now? My DD's team was told that IF there is a season, they can't use the locker room, can't eat at the athletic cafeteria, can't use the weight room, can't train more than five at a time on the field, no training room or facilities will be open, and all Fall classes are online. So they want these players to go back to campus with all these restrictions and sit in their dorms for online classes to play in an empty stadium? I can tell you that the players I've talked to aren't down with playing an abridged season like that, especially the seniors who are in their last year. Most are already talking about redshirting already. I say just call it, tentatively push back to Spring, and worst case Fall 2021.


The point is quite simple.  Everything you described are acceptable if there is a football season.  If you DD's entire soccer team decides to sit out 2020, my guess is her school will be fine with it.

Schools just can't openly announce let's keep football and cancel everything else.  If it's not too much of a hypocrisy, schools could have a fall football season even if there are no fall classes at all .


----------



## vegasguy

MakeAPlay said:


> I live in San Diego and we only have a 4% positive rate, which is below the CDC and WHO guidelines, and the positive case numbers are setting records every other day.  Until there is 95%+ compliance with masks and social distancing it is going to be hard to get the numbers under control again without another lockdown or a vaccine.
> 
> The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 took 3 years to run it's course.  If history is our guide we should realize that we aren't going to be back to normal until late 2022.
> 
> Good luck to you and your player.


I know a doctor in San Diego that almost lost their job as they refused to put the cause of death as COVID 19.  No the person did pass away in a car accident and did test positive post mortem but per the doctor it was definitely an auto accident death.


----------



## dk_b

warrior49 said:


> I have to ask, what is the point of forcing a season now? My DD's team was told that IF there is a season, they can't use the locker room, can't eat at the athletic cafeteria, can't use the weight room, can't train more than five at a time on the field, no training room or facilities will be open, and all Fall classes are online. So they want these players to go back to campus with all these restrictions and sit in their dorms for online classes to play in an empty stadium? I can tell you that the players I've talked to aren't down with playing an abridged season like that, especially the seniors who are in their last year. Most are already talking about redshirting already. I say just call it, tentatively push back to Spring, and worst case Fall 2021.


It does not exist in a vacuum. Postponing a season screws a lot of things up in terms of financial promises to recruits and enrolled players. Even if the ncaa permits bloated rosters for 2021, not every dept can afford the increases scholarships. And what if you have a senior who is on a full ride who is expected to graduate and you have a full ride frosh coming in - the financial commitment matches. But if the Sr comes back, what happens to that 21 frosh?  If the player is that good, maybe nothing changes but for the many who are on partials, it means less money for them.

I’m not arguing against scrapping the season (it would suck but if it is necessary for safety, so be it), just pointing out that there are so many moving parts.  Thwy will do all they can to get some season in as long as there is football. If no football, no sports.


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## espola

vegasguy said:


> I know a doctor in San Diego that almost lost their job as they refused to put the cause of death as COVID 19.  No the person did pass away in a car accident and did test positive post mortem but per the doctor it was definitely an auto accident death.


More details, please.


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## warrior49

dk_b said:


> It does not exist in a vacuum. Postponing a season screws a lot of things up in terms of financial promises to recruits and enrolled players. Even if the ncaa permits bloated rosters for 2021, not every dept can afford the increases scholarships. And what if you have a senior who is on a full ride who is expected to graduate and you have a full ride frosh coming in - the financial commitment matches. But if the Sr comes back, what happens to that 21 frosh?  If the player is that good, maybe nothing changes but for the many who are on partials, it means less money for them.
> 
> I’m not arguing against scrapping the season (it would suck but if it is necessary for safety, so be it), just pointing out that there are so many moving parts.  Thwy will do all they can to get some season in as long as there is football. If no football, no sports.


As I understand it, recruiting effectively stopped. I think if there is a season you will see a lot of girls sit out. Why waste a year playing in those conditions? But, if it's dependent on football, the dominos are falling there quickly as well. Same restrictions on locker room use, training room use, all the logistical stuff to run a game. I just don't see it happening. I get it as parents we want our kids to play, but even the players are starting to balk at all this.


----------



## jpeter

Copa9 said:


> Maybe they will allow only Freshman and Jr. for first game, second game for soph. and seniors, third game freshman and jrs. etc etc. half student body each game. Space them out. If they even allow them at all. Or just freshman first game, soph. second game, jr. third game, seniors fourth game, etc. etc. etc Who knows. It will be interesting.


Who knows like you say but with only half as many games and what 10 conference games vs 5 different opponents not alot of opportunities considering the typical roster sizes.  The soccer season is already so short I can see why freshman want to redshirt but that could have a domino effect on future prospects.

The added financial strain from reduced or no football is not going help and recuiting is bound to be reduced further it would seem so the threats just seem to be growing. 

Trying to look for the silver lining,  is there still going to be postseason? college cup or is that TBA?


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## vegasguy

espola said:


> More details, please.


All deaths in SD County have a covid test performed.  If they test positive the cause of death is listed as covid.  This time the Dr. clearly knew the death was not caused by covid and listed the cause of death as the reason for the death that was caused by accident.  The administration advised the Dr. needed to list covid.  Dr. said no. Administration threatened termination and Dr. threatened to go to Media.  Admin backed down.


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## espola

vegasguy said:


> All deaths in SD County have a covid test performed.  If they test positive the cause of death is listed as covid.  This time the Dr. clearly knew the death was not caused by covid and listed the cause of death as the reason for the death that was caused by accident.  The administration advised the Dr. needed to list covid.  Dr. said no. Administration threatened termination and Dr. threatened to go to Media.  Admin backed down.


That's just repetition


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## Ellejustus

My wife and I were walking on the bike walk in Oceanside May 2, 2012.  I saw all these people crying by this house on the beach and a tv camera was out front.  A big time football player had just killed himself.  Maybe football is too dam violent and dangerous?  Seriously, I would be more afraid to actually play the sport then catching the corona and dying from it. My son played his Sr year at Temecula Prep and we had to play Rancho Christian and Crean Lutheran, two way bigger teams.  My son is 5' 9 and fast and lifted weights to get ready but was no match for some of the big dudes from these other power houses.  I thought he would get seriously hurt before the game against RC because these guys were twice our size and they had a defense and offense.  Our team played both ways.  RC guys were huge compared to out little team.  I said a prayer and it started raining and it was mud fest that we almost won.  One of our kids had a concussion and another kid tore his ACL. My son made it out alive but I swear I felt guilty the whole time watching.  What happens if he get's paralyzed I thought?  I see all these old warriors from the NFL that I looked up too and most are dead or can;t walk or talk.  Now, if we cant have football to make big bucks in college, we cant have other sports?  What's up with that?


----------



## full90

vegasguy said:


> All deaths in SD County have a covid test performed.  If they test positive the cause of death is listed as covid.  This time the Dr. clearly knew the death was not caused by covid and listed the cause of death as the reason for the death that was caused by accident.  The administration advised the Dr. needed to list covid.  Dr. said no. Administration threatened termination and Dr. threatened to go to Media.  Admin backed down.


That’s....not how it works. Your buddy is lying to you or you’re making this up. What hospital?  
There’s a treatment reimbursement for covid but no death payment. Listing covid as cause of death would mean no money. They could list cause of death as alien attack and then include on the covid line “positive” and still get the reimbursement. There’s no incentive for listing covid as cause of death. This is BS.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

warrior49 said:


> As I understand it, recruiting effectively stopped. I think if there is a season you will see a lot of girls sit out. Why waste a year playing in those conditions?


Considering relatively few of these ladies will play professionally beyond college, what percent do you expect to choose to stay in school another year over getting started with their life post-college?


----------



## Ellejustus

full90 said:


> That’s....not how it works. Your buddy is lying to you or you’re making this up. What hospital?
> There’s a treatment reimbursement for covid but no death payment. Listing covid as cause of death would mean no money. They could list cause of death as alien attack and then include on the covid line “positive” and still get the reimbursement. There’s no incentive for listing covid as cause of death. This is BS.


I never saw anything about getting paid.  Did I miss something?  Deaths need to be counted for other reasons from what I'm hearing.  What do you hear?


----------



## warrior49

kickingandscreaming said:


> Considering relatively few of these ladies will play professionally beyond college, what percent do you expect to choose to stay in school another year over getting started with their life post-college?


That was exactly my point. Especially with the senior class, they want to get the most out of their college career. I would feel the same way. Kinda like going on a roller coaster and the ride ends before the big drop. These four years go by quick. Not sure of actual numbers across the team, but many of the seniors are already planning on taking graduate prerequisite classes in Fall 2021.


----------



## full90

The theory is that hospitals are listing all deaths as covid deaths in order to collect a government payout for covid cases. Which is untrue. Thats not how it works. 
Lying about covid as cause of death for a car accident isn’t a thing. There’s no need to do it. Checking the box that the person was covid positive aids in tracking, but changing the cause of death yields no positive return. It’s just not a thing. 
cause of death forms are federal and there’s obviously a huge push to track covid impact. But covid deaths are vastly underreported so even if there’s a massive nationwide conspiracy by hospitals to list every death as covid it’s still a moot issue. And again...why do it? Money would be the only reason but they get the money by treating covid patients, not those that die from it.

His story doesn’t make sense.


----------



## GT45

kickingandscreaming said:


> Considering relatively few of these ladies will play professionally beyond college, what percent do you expect to choose to stay in school another year over getting started with their life post-college?


Because college soccer is a fall sport, I think it is likely that a lot of them would want to come back for a few months. I think it is more of a deterrent for spring sports, as a graduate who have to come back for the entire academic year.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> That's just repetition


What do you want then.


----------



## vegasguy

full90 said:


> That’s....not how it works. Your buddy is lying to you or you’re making this up. What hospital?
> There’s a treatment reimbursement for covid but no death payment. Listing covid as cause of death would mean no money. They could list cause of death as alien attack and then include on the covid line “positive” and still get the reimbursement. There’s no incentive for listing covid as cause of death. This is BS.


You can say what you want but I have know this person to be honest.  Their family is honest and that is what i was told.  I never said anything about money.  You can call bs if you want.


----------



## espola

vegasguy said:


> What do you want then.


I asked for details.  You just said the same thing in different words.


----------



## Mosafie

vegasguy said:


> I know a doctor in San Diego that almost lost their job as they refused to put the cause of death as COVID 19.  No the person did pass away in a car accident and did test positive post mortem but per the doctor it was definitely an auto accident death.


But what caused the car accident. Covid affects everything from breathing to reflexes to stroke. Covid can still be reported as a contributing factor if it affected the ability of the driver.

The CDC has has specific instructions about how Covid is reported.

Direct Covid deaths as a result of the infection are reported as such.

Indirect causes of death, covid is only listed as a contributing factor on the second part of the death certificate. 


The official Covid death numbers put out by the CDC do not include indirect Covid deaths.

The official numbers are real true deaths caused by covid. There is no conspiracy. Those people all died from covid.

I work in San Diego hospitals to. No one is falsifying causes of death.


----------



## vegasguy

Mosafie said:


> But what caused the car accident. Covid affects everything from breathing to reflexes to stroke. Covid can still be reported as a contributing factor if it affected the ability of the driver.
> 
> The CDC has has specific instructions about how Covid is reported.
> 
> Direct Covid deaths as a result of the infection are reported as such.
> 
> Indirect causes of death, covid is only listed as a contributing factor on the second part of the death certificate.
> 
> 
> The official Covid death numbers put out by the CDC do not include indirect Covid deaths.
> 
> The official numbers are real true deaths caused by covid. There is no conspiracy. Those people all died from covid.
> 
> I work in San Diego hospitals to. No one is falsifying causes of death.


I gain nothing from making up a story and I can only tell it as I heard it.  It is your free will to listen or deny.  I did not claim conspiracy and I believe the majority of the numbers are real.  I also believe numbers of this magnitude have a plus-minus error rate and when you hear issues like this it gives you pause to know a small percentage of the numbers are in error.


----------



## vegasguy

espola said:


> I asked for details.  You just said the same thing in different words.


And I asked you a specific question and you gave no specific answer. I guess that makes level.


----------



## Ellejustus

Simple all this is really.  No one makes extra bonus on deaths that tested positive as they were wheeled in about to die from something non corona related.  For example, car accident and shark attack victims are always trying to be saved to the very end.  It's how we do things and it's not about making extra money.  If the shark attack victim dies at the hospital and also test positive or they suspected corona as well, it counts in the overall death rate and no bonus bucks.  However, if the shark attack victim only loses their arm like Bethany and has to stay at the hospital, they have a 20% chance of a positive test, without the systems.  Basically, they didnt go to ER because they felt they had Corona.  They went for another reason in the first place but now they are now counted as a corona patient.  I hope that clears things up.  Plus, I believe they now make a few extra bucks because they have to protect everyone from the new corona patient who came in originally from a shark attack.  Its the people taking those numbers and making them equal their math.  One way to play math folks and math can be scary if the math is taught wrong.


----------



## CaliKlines

The dominoes are starting to fall. Patriot League (minus the service academies) have cancelled all fall sports, just like the Ivy League. Big 10, Pac 12 only playing conference opponents for now. ACC/SEC will probably make an announcement this week regarding their intentions. It's going to be a long autumn without college sports.


----------



## Woobie06

Ok...here is one from personal experience....





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				




I emailed the editor of the story regarding why they would report the man was a Covid Death, when he died of a drug OD...my wife and I were like, seriously??!  I had my mobile on my email sig and the editor called me...could not believe it...she said she responded because I asked a legitimate question and was not emailing crazy threats or ideas...good to know...she said they have to report exactly what the coroner says regarding cause of death for accuracy and integrity.  Period.  She did not know why the death was classified as Covid, but has to report it as such.  I understand her explanation, that said, I don’t get the cause of death.  To say “no manipulation or level of inaccuracy” is prevalent is naive.  There is mis-reporting out there.  Are the mis-reports actual mistakes, or some other agenda?


----------



## GT45

Even more common though is the people who died and where never tested, so therefore their cause of death was unreported as COVID. A lot of pneumonia deaths have been allegedly misreported because the state did not want it to say Covid. 

The reality is that COVID does kill people, and we have had a lot more deaths per typical over the years. No agenda. Just reality.


----------



## Ellejustus

Woobie06 said:


> Ok...here is one from personal experience....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I emailed the editor of the story regarding why they would report the man was a Covid Death, when he died of a drug OD...my wife and I were like, seriously??!  I had my mobile on my email sig and the editor called me...could not believe it...she said she responded because I asked a legitimate question and was not emailing crazy threats or ideas...good to know...she said they have to report exactly what the coroner says regarding cause of death for accuracy and integrity.  Period.  She did not know why the death was classified as Covid, but has to report it as such.  I understand her explanation, that said, I don’t get the cause of death.  To say “no manipulation or level of inaccuracy” is prevalent is naive.  There is mis-reporting out there.  Are the mis-reports actual mistakes, or some other agenda?


There was *one new death recorded Monday*, bringing the total number of Orange County residents who have died to 424.

Of the* 424* deaths,* 212* were skilled nursing facility residents and two were listed as homeless.

According to the California Department of Health, there have been *97 COVID-19 deaths* in Orange County and 11,810 new cases in the last 14 days.


The state agency also reports 758 hospitalized patients in the last 14 days *(suspected and positive)* in 33 hospitals across the county as of Monday.

They call them Covid death when really no one dies from Covid.  They die because their super old or have underlying health issues and they can;t fight the virus.  You ahve to be in good health to fight.  That's why no kids die.  Their strong!!!  No one under 24 in oc has died and basically, no one healthy is dying.  There is no covid death!!!!!


----------



## MakeAPlay

Kicker4Life said:


> To be fair, science has come a LONG way since 1918.  I’m willing to place a friendly wager of 1942, we have a Fall College season in 2021.
> 
> only caveat being the beer we enjoy when handing over the bottle.....winner has to buy that round.


If you are betting that you will be able to sit in a stadium and watch a game on opening day of the 2021 college soccer season I will take that wager.  Even with our advanced science there won't be a vaccine until at least late winter or spring of 2021 (assuming everyting goes perfectly with all of the trials).  Once you get a vaccine that is confirmed to work then first the military, frontline healthcare workers, the Illuminati and rich people will get it.  Most likely it won't be widely available until winter 2021/22 for us regular people.

Stay safe.  Wear a mask when you are in public and practice social distancing whenever possible.  Good luck to you and your player.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MakeAPlay said:


> If you are betting that you will be able to sit in a stadium and watch a game on opening day of the 2021 college soccer season I will take that wager.  Even with our advanced science there won't be a vaccine until at least late winter or spring of 2021 (assuming everyting goes perfectly with all of the trials).  Once you get a vaccine that is confirmed to work then first the military, frontline healthcare workers, the Illuminati and rich people will get it.  Most likely it won't be widely available until winter 2021/22 for us regular people.
> 
> Stay safe.  Wear a mask when you are in public and practice social distancing whenever possible.  Good luck to you and your player.


Let’s call it a bet then.

I’ve been fortunate enough to stay working this whole time and do my diligence when in public and dose up on my Vitamin D, b and C (among others).  Just hope my player has something to come back to.....


----------



## MakeAPlay

Mystery Train said:


> I think you're right.  Man, you must be glad your kid got to finish her college career.  Mine lost the last season of her youth career, graduation, prom, and now it looks like her first college season, and with on-line classes, won't have anything like a real college experience.  I just can't see how schools are going to possibly pull off fall sports.  The big test is going to be what happens in the SEC.  There's so much money tied up in football, you know they're going to do all they can to still hold games, but you couldn't pay me to go to a game and sit, crammed together with thousands of other people right now.


We were talking about that exact thing last night.  Also her college roommate (who she lived with for all 4 years) didn't have an in person graduation ceremony which she had last June when she graduated.  She is so happy that she went to summer school 4 years in a row and was done after the fall season.  She feels bad for a bunch of her teammates that were going to be top 2 in the country coming into the season and now are going to have to decide if they want to redshirt and come back or move on with their lives.  Lots of tough choices to make.  Macario is probably wishing that she had followed Smith and Sanchez and declared early for the draft.

Good luck to you and your player.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Kicker4Life said:


> Let’s call it a bet then.
> 
> I’ve been fortunate enough to stay working this whole time and do my diligence when in public and dose up on my Vitamin D, b and C (among others).  Just hope my player has something to come back to.....


Done.  Shoot me a PM and I will drop my contact info.  I am only on the site once or twice a week lurking so it will be easier to get ahold of me that way.  Stay safe.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Ominous to say the least....

https://www.espn.com/college-sports...dget-20-percent-ad-coaches-taking-salary-cuts 

https://patriotleague.org/news/2020...-decisions-surrounding-fall-sport-season.aspx


----------



## MacDre

MakeAPlay said:


> We were talking about that exact thing last night.  Also her college roommate (who she lived with for all 4 years) didn't have an in person graduation ceremony which she had last June when she graduated.  She is so happy that she went to summer school 4 years in a row and was done after the fall season.  She feels bad for a bunch of her teammates that were going to be top 2 in the country coming into the season and now are going to have to decide if they want to redshirt and come back or move on with their lives.  Lots of tough choices to make.  Macario is probably wishing that she had followed Smith and Sanchez and declared early for the draft.
> 
> Good luck to you and your player.


Does the NWSL have a supplemental draft “type” process similar to the NFL that Macario could explore?


----------



## gotothebushes

MakeAPlay said:


> If you are betting that you will be able to sit in a stadium and watch a game on opening day of the 2021 college soccer season I will take that wager.  Even with our advanced science there won't be a vaccine until at least late winter or spring of 2021 (assuming everyting goes perfectly with all of the trials).  Once you get a vaccine that is confirmed to work then first the military, frontline healthcare workers, the Illuminati and rich people will get it.  Most likely it won't be widely available until winter 2021/22 for us regular people.
> 
> Stay safe.  Wear a mask when you are in public and practice social distancing whenever possible.  Good luck to you and your player.


 Illuminati is alive?LOL! Fastest Vaccine took 4 years! Not so sure a vaccine will be available in 2021.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

gotothebushes said:


> Illuminati is alive?LOL! Fastest Vaccine took 4 years! Not so sure a vaccine will be available in 2021.


No faith in Astra-Zeneca or Moderna? I believe we'll have a vaccine by June 2021 or earlier that offers at least enough protection that it is used. China is already "beta testing" (my phrase, not theirs) on their military and have a couple other vaccines in Phase III.

A vaccine in development by the British-Swedish company *AstraZeneca* and the *University of Oxford* is based on a chimpanzee adenovirus called ChAdOx1. The vaccine is in a Phase II/III trial in England and Phase III trials in Brazil and South Africa. The project may deliver emergency vaccines by October. In June, AstraZeneca said their total manufacturing capacity stands at two billion doses.

*Moderna*’s vaccine dazzled the stock market in May with Phase I data on just eight people, only to see its stock price drop when experts had a lukewarm reaction to the results. The vaccine uses messenger RNA (mRNA for short) to produce viral proteins. Phase III trials are set to begin July 27, and the company hopes to have vaccine doses ready by early 2021.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> Does the NWSL have a supplemental draft “type” process similar to the NFL that Macario could explore?


She's a senior.  She'd be a fool to leave Stanford without a diploma.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> She's a senior.  She'd be a fool to leave Stanford without a diploma.


I was thinking she could play in the NWSL and  possibly finish taking classes via zoom like most college students will most likely do this upcoming fall.


----------



## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> Does the NWSL have a supplemental draft “type” process similar to the NFL that Macario could explore?


Yes but at this point it will be next years draft.  What that will look like is beyond me.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I was thinking she could play in the NWSL and  possibly finish taking classes via zoom like most college students will most likely do this upcoming fall.


If the school continues to give her athlete status when she leaves.  Wouldn't she make more $ as the #1 pick in next year's draft?  As if any of them make any money... but she's an endorsement's dream.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

dk_b said:


> It does not exist in a vacuum. Postponing a season screws a lot of things up in terms of financial promises to recruits and enrolled players. Even if the ncaa permits bloated rosters for 2021, not every dept can afford the increases scholarships. And what if you have a senior who is on a full ride who is expected to graduate and you have a full ride frosh coming in - the financial commitment matches. But if the Sr comes back, what happens to that 21 frosh?  If the player is that good, maybe nothing changes but for the many who are on partials, it means less money for them.
> 
> I’m not arguing against scrapping the season (it would suck but if it is necessary for safety, so be it), just pointing out that there are so many moving parts.  Thwy will do all they can to get some season in as long as there is football. If no football, no sports.



When the season is canceled or cut short and the revenue stream is damaged by a loss of enrollment (tuition) or football dollars I expect the following to occur:

1) good number of non revenue sports will be cut
2) Asst coaches and admin staff pinks slips
3) head coach furloughes
4) a reduction of scholarships to effect the class on 2021 and beyond


----------



## eastbaysoccer

kickingandscreaming said:


> Considering relatively few of these ladies will play professionally beyond college, what percent do you expect to choose to stay in school another year over getting started with their life post-college?


What will be the impact of the graduate transfer in 2022?


----------



## Dubs

eastbaysoccer said:


> When the season is canceled or cut short and the revenue stream is damaged by a loss of enrollment (tuition) or football dollars I expect the following to occur:
> 
> 1) good number of non revenue sports will be cut
> 2) Asst coaches and admin staff pinks slips
> 3) head coach furloughes
> 4) a reduction of scholarships to effect the class on 2021 and beyond


Let's not go there yet.  That would be a massive cluster F


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> If the school continues to give her athlete status when she leaves.  Wouldn't she make more $ as the #1 pick in next year's draft?  As if any of them make any money... but she's an endorsement's dream.


I’ve helped a couple non-athletes get into Stanford and they both received free tuition because their family income fell below a certain level.  Maybe Macario can qualify via family income for free tuition?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

MacDre said:


> I’ve helped a couple non-athletes get into Stanford and they both received free tuition because their family income fell below a certain level.  Maybe Macario can qualify via family income for free tuition?


I thought I read her parents are doctors.


----------



## Imtired

kickingandscreaming said:


> No faith in Astra-Zeneca or Moderna? I believe we'll have a vaccine by June 2021 or earlier that offers at least enough protection that it is used. China is already "beta testing" (my phrase, not theirs) on their military and have a couple other vaccines in Phase III.
> 
> A vaccine in development by the British-Swedish company *AstraZeneca* and the *University of Oxford* is based on a chimpanzee adenovirus called ChAdOx1. The vaccine is in a Phase II/III trial in England and Phase III trials in Brazil and South Africa. The project may deliver emergency vaccines by October. In June, AstraZeneca said their total manufacturing capacity stands at two billion doses.
> 
> *Moderna*’s vaccine dazzled the stock market in May with Phase I data on just eight people, only to see its stock price drop when experts had a lukewarm reaction to the results. The vaccine uses messenger RNA (mRNA for short) to produce viral proteins. Phase III trials are set to begin July 27, and the company hopes to have vaccine doses ready by early 2021.


Don’t forget about antivirals.  There are several in clinical trials right now that could potentially work to prevent the virus post-exposure.  Someone you were exposed to tested positive for COVID-19?  Take an antiviral to prevent the virus from taking hold.  The antivirals in clinical trials were approved for other viruses so have already gone through the safety phase.  They started testing an inhaled version of Remdesivir July 7th.


----------



## MacDre

Simisoccerfan said:


> I thought I read her parents are doctors.


I recall reading her mom is a doctor and the family breadwinner.  If I remember the article I read correctly, I think her dad was/is a stay at home dad that accompanied Macario and her older brother to the USA.  I’m not sure, but I don’t think most doctors in Brazil make a lot of money.  I know many doctors in TJ make about what a person working at Wal-Mart full time in the US makes.  There are some doctors such as plastic surgeons that make much more but they are outliers.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Simisoccerfan said:


> I thought I read her parents are doctors.


Her mom is a doctor.


----------



## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> I recall reading her mom is a doctor and the family breadwinner.  If I remember the article I read correctly, I think her dad was/is a stay at home dad that accompanied Macario and her older brother to the USA.  I’m not sure, but I don’t think most doctors in Brazil make a lot of money.  I know many doctors in TJ make about what a person working at Wal-Mart full time in the US makes.  There are some doctors such as plastic surgeons that make much more but they are outliers.


Jose is a nice guy and yes he did move to the US with his kids while mom remained in Brazil.


----------



## Ellejustus

MakeAPlay said:


> Jose is a nice guy and yes he did move to the US with his kids while mom remained in Brazil.


Hey Maps, how long is your Unicorn going to play pro ball?  I think young, top top players like SS, AS, TT and YM might just have to go pro out of high school next year and the year after.  I just hired one of the premier coaches in Socal to take my goat to the highest elite world class there is.  I'm hoping she can hang and maybe try and score on your Unicorn in two years. That is my new dream for her......lol.  The other goal is to have my Rocket become the veteran I know she can be and mentor Dre's dd and of course Luis's dd when they come up.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Imtired said:


> Don’t forget about antivirals.  There are several in clinical trials right now that could potentially work to prevent the virus post-exposure.  Someone you were exposed to tested positive for COVID-19?  Take an antiviral to prevent the virus from taking hold.  The antivirals in clinical trials were approved for other viruses so have already gone through the safety phase.  They started testing an inhaled version of Remdesivir July 7th.


Nice. You need to put this on "The Good News" thread with the other 200+ pages of "Good News" ;-)


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> I’ve helped a couple non-athletes get into Stanford and they both received free tuition because their family income fell below a certain level.  Maybe Macario can qualify via family income for free tuition?


Must be nice to not have to pay for something because you didn't work hard enough to make the money.


----------



## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Must be nice to not have to pay for something because you didn't work hard enough to make the money.


Many hard working families from all walks of life get free tuition at Stanford and the Ivies.  So, I don’t understand your point.  Please elaborate.
How is this any different than an athletic scholarship?


----------



## espola

MacDre said:


> Many hard working families from all walks of life get free tuition at Stanford and the Ivies.  So, I don’t understand your point.  Please elaborate.
> How is this any different than an athletic scholarship?


A shorthand definition an Ivy League college (including pretend "Ivies") is that if a student is good enough to get in, the college will make sure the student and family can afford it.


----------



## Copa9

gotothebushes said:


> Illuminati is alive?LOL! Fastest Vaccine took 4 years! Not so sure a vaccine will be available in 2021.


Agree with you on this.  However, there is one big difference between development of vaccines in the past and now.  A lot of the delays for previous vaccines had to do with government red tape not the actual trials. It might be possible to cut off a year or two from development. In addition, every major vaccine producing company in the world is working on this.  Also, some biotech companies are trying a different approach using current drugs to "trick" a persons antibodies into attacking the covid virus, some interesting things going on. We need an effective treatment and vaccine before we can gain some semblance of normalcy. Let's hope it is sooner rather than later.


----------



## espola

Copa9 said:


> Also, some biotech companies are trying a different approach using current drugs to "trick" a persons antibodies into attacking the covid virus, some interesting things going on.


Source?


----------



## Copa9

kickingandscreaming said:


> No faith in Astra-Zeneca or Moderna? I believe we'll have a vaccine by June 2021 or earlier that offers at least enough protection that it is used. China is already "beta testing" (my phrase, not theirs) on their military and have a couple other vaccines in Phase III.
> 
> A vaccine in development by the British-Swedish company *AstraZeneca* and the *University of Oxford* is based on a chimpanzee adenovirus called ChAdOx1. The vaccine is in a Phase II/III trial in England and Phase III trials in Brazil and South Africa. The project may deliver emergency vaccines by October. In June, AstraZeneca said their total manufacturing capacity stands at two billion doses.
> 
> *Moderna*’s vaccine dazzled the stock market in May with Phase I data on just eight people, only to see its stock price drop when experts had a lukewarm reaction to the results. The vaccine uses messenger RNA (mRNA for short) to produce viral proteins. Phase III trials are set to begin July 27, and the company hopes to have vaccine doses ready by early 2021.


Info only, Moderna has never been able to bring a vaccine to market. Maybe with the millions and millions of dollars the government gave them, they will be able to this time.


----------



## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> Many hard working families from all walks of life get free tuition at Stanford and the Ivies.  So, I don’t understand your point.  Please elaborate.
> How is this any different than an athletic scholarship?


It's different to him because he doesn't realize that if you make under $200k a year you can get need based money from those schools.  You would have to be more than a self interested person who is clearly hostile to POC.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

WCC earliest competition start date pushed out to 9/24.   Also Big East will only play conference games.


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> WCC earliest competition start date pushed out to 9/24.   Also Big East will only play conference games.


 You really think there's going to be any women soccer in 2020? I find that hard to believe given all the unknowns as of now! I hope there's soccer but its not looking too promising!


----------



## gotothebushes

Also if there's no college soccer this year, it will have a ripple affect. At least 50% less for 2022 and 2023 in scholarships.


----------



## Zen

gotothebushes said:


> Also if there's no college soccer this year, it will have a ripple affect. At least 50% less for 2022 and 2023 in scholarships.


I don't know the exact domino effect but understand there will be one.  Can you elaborate on why 50% to 2022 and 2023?


----------



## gotothebushes

Zen said:


> I don't know the exact domino effect but understand there will be one.  Can you elaborate on why 50% to 2022 and 2023?


If there's no soccer season, this mean those incoming freshmen players might redshirt there first year creating a domino effect on the amount players need to bring in for 2022 and 2023 class. Just thinking outside the box on how's things are going at this point.


----------



## Copa9

gotothebushes said:


> Also if there's no college soccer this year, it will have a ripple affect. At least 50% less for 2022 and 2023 in scholarships.


Are you assuming that a current senior (this up coming year) wants to stick around for a few months of soccer and miss graduating with friends who are moving on , a new job or graduate school? Doubtful.


----------



## warrior49

Copa9 said:


> Are you assuming that a current senior (this up coming year) wants to stick around for a few months of soccer and miss graduating with friends who are moving on , a new job or graduate school? Doubtful.


Eh, not doubtful at all. My DD (senior) and a couple others plan on playing their fourth year of soccer while taking grad school prerequisites. It's already in the works if there is no season past Spring. We had a team zoom call about just this topic on Monday. Seniors are all invited back if it comes to that. Sounds like the 2022 and 2023's are going to get shorted if anything.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

With the increased number of COVID cases it will be impossible For players to get a COVID test/results within the 72 hours recommended by the NCAA.  Season over.

If there’s a slim chance we can take the field it would not surprise me if all freshman redshirt.

What about kids opting out or even asking for a medical redshirt?


----------



## gotothebushes

Copa9 said:


> Are you assuming that a current senior (this up coming year) wants to stick around for a few months of soccer and miss graduating with friends who are moving on , a new job or graduate school? Doubtful.


Yep that's exactly what I'm saying. Some seniors will say on another season.Coaches are already inviting seniors back.  This will kill the incoming classes.


----------



## LASTMAN14

gotothebushes said:


> Yep that's exactly what I'm saying. Some seniors will say on another season.Coaches are already inviting seniors back.  This will kill the incoming classes.


Another thought here. Students this year at some institutions are being allowed to defer a year. How many are committed soccer players and doing so? What’s their future I mpact? Also, if there is a back up of players could this improve other programs? Meaning for example players committed to a program de commit prior to attending and change schools.


----------



## Copa9

warrior49 said:


> Eh, not doubtful at all. My DD (senior) and a couple others plan on playing their fourth year of soccer while taking grad school prerequisites. It's already in the works if there is no season past Spring. We had a team zoom call about just this topic on Monday. Seniors are all invited back if it comes to that. Sounds like the 2022 and 2023's are going to get shorted if anything.


Is she a senior now or will be in the fall?


----------



## Copa9

Copa9 said:


> Is she a senior now or will be in the fall?





Copa9 said:


> Is she a senior now or will be in the fall?


What about tuition? Any on academic scholarships or are they on full athletic scholarships since they are seniors.  D1 or D2 schools?


----------



## warrior49

Copa9 said:


> What about tuition? Any on academic scholarships or are they on full athletic scholarships since they are seniors.  D1 or D2 schools?


My DD is Pac-12, and she is a senior in the Fall. She's got a fairly decent athletic scholarship. Some do, some don't. But they were told by the coaching staff verbatim: "The seniors are welcome back if we don't have a season, and scholarships will be honored." That's the most recent info we received this week, but like everything that can change.


----------



## Copa9

warrior49 said:


> My DD is Pac-12, and she is a senior in the Fall. She's got a fairly decent athletic scholarship. Some do, some don't. But they were told by the coaching staff verbatim: "The seniors are welcome back if we don't have a season, and scholarships will be honored." That's the most recent info we received this week, but like everything that can change.


Will the scholarship be a five year scholarship or will they take an academic/soccer gap year? Who pays the tuition for their pre graduate school classes? If the university doesn't have to pay out for the gap year, will the university redistribute the funds to pay for other programs? It will be interesting.  Football revenue is a whole other matter if the school uses that revenue to fund soccer. Some don't have football. One of my daughters is a senior, but not an athlete (gave it up) the upcoming year and will have distance learning. She debated to take a gap year or continue and graduate. She has decided to continue, finish up while living off campus with friends and get on with work or grad school.  This is certainly a challenging time for these young adults.


----------



## warrior49

Copa9 said:


> Will the scholarship be a five year scholarship or will they take an academic/soccer gap year? Who pays the tuition for their pre graduate school classes? If the university doesn't have to pay out for the gap year, will the university redistribute the funds to pay for other programs? It will be interesting.  Football revenue is a whole other matter if the school uses that revenue to fund soccer. Some don't have football. One of my daughters is a senior, but not an athlete (gave it up) the upcoming year and will have distance learning. She debated to take a gap year or continue and graduate. She has decided to continue, finish up while living off campus with friends and get on with work or grad school.  This is certainly a challenging time for these young adults.


Definitely uncharted territory for sure. The whole thing sucks and changes by the day. My DD's school has a successful football program, and what I've noticed over the years is the soccer team gets lots of perks from that. But if there is no football then what?  I guess we will see.


----------



## GT45

It is not a given at all. See this article:

*Wisconsin Won't Allow Spring Sport Senior Athletes to Return in 2021*

Keep in mind that this is a Power 5 school, too. It is expensive to let these players return.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

GT45 said:


> It is not a given at all. See this article:
> 
> *Wisconsin Won't Allow Spring Sport Senior Athletes to Return in 2021*
> 
> Keep in mind that this is a Power 5 school, too. It is expensive to let these players return.


How easy is it for them to be graduate transfers?
With a depressed economy they may want to enroll in masters program.


----------



## GT45

I think that is a legitimate option. Obviously the opportunities are going to be fewer as teams may have fuller rosters. But a good player could get opportunities to do that.


----------



## gotothebushes

warrior49 said:


> Eh, not doubtful at all. My DD (senior) and a couple others plan on playing their fourth year of soccer while taking grad school prerequisites. It's already in the works if there is no season past Spring. We had a team zoom call about just this topic on Monday. Seniors are all invited back if it comes to that. Sounds like the 2022 and 2023's are going to get shorted if anything.


 Thanks for the update. I believe things change day to day and there's no real plan just yet. Tough times to be in right now!


----------



## gotothebushes

GT45 said:


> It is not a given at all. See this article:
> 
> *Wisconsin Won't Allow Spring Sport Senior Athletes to Return in 2021*
> 
> Keep in mind that this is a Power 5 school, too. It is expensive to let these players return.


Wow! If other schools follow -this will definitely have an domino effect on incoming classes!


----------



## Dubs

warrior49 said:


> Eh, not doubtful at all. My DD (senior) and a couple others plan on playing their fourth year of soccer while taking grad school prerequisites. It's already in the works if there is no season past Spring. We had a team zoom call about just this topic on Monday. Seniors are all invited back if it comes to that. Sounds like the 2022 and 2023's are going to get shorted if anything.


Which would mean what for the 2021s?


----------



## Mystery Train

LASTMAN14 said:


> Another thought here. Students this year at some institutions are being allowed to defer a year. How many are committed soccer players and doing so? What’s their future I mpact? Also, if there is a back up of players could this improve other programs? Meaning for example players committed to a program de commit prior to attending and change schools.


Good questions, and the answer is "We'll find out."  No way to really predict all the ramifications of losing the 2020-21 sports seasons.  But I would guess that there will be kids who decide to drop soccer entirely, some opt for upgrading their school/soccer program, maybe slightly fewer opportunities for new incoming freshmen for the next season as the number of 5th year seniors/grad student players increases. 

I predict that the much bigger impact of this pandemic is not going to come from the loss of the next season, but from the budget crisis that is going to sweep the entire college landscape starting now and over the next several years.  Schools formerly in decent financial condition are going to tighten their belts, schools just getting by are going to have to slash massive amounts of money to stay afloat, and those that were already having trouble are going to shut down entirely.  I can guarantee that is going to hit soccer programs (men's and women's) across the country, and there will be FAR fewer opportunities for scholarships and roster spots in the coming years.   Already, my player's college coaches are talking about losing support staff and resources as part of budget cuts, and her school's women's soccer program is the premier sport at her particular school (DII). 

I really, really hope I'm wrong.


----------



## gotothebushes

Mystery Train said:


> Good questions, and the answer is "We'll find out."  No way to really predict all the ramifications of losing the 2020-21 sports seasons.  But I would guess that there will be kids who decide to drop soccer entirely, some opt for upgrading their school/soccer program, maybe slightly fewer opportunities for new incoming freshmen for the next season as the number of 5th year seniors/grad student players increases.
> 
> I predict that the much bigger impact of this pandemic is not going to come from the loss of the next season, but from the budget crisis that is going to sweep the entire college landscape starting now and over the next several years.  Schools formerly in decent financial condition are going to tighten their belts, schools just getting by are going to have to slash massive amounts of money to stay afloat, and those that were already having trouble are going to shut down entirely.  I can guarantee that is going to hit soccer programs (men's and women's) across the country, and there will be FAR fewer opportunities for scholarships and roster spots in the coming years.   Already, my player's college coaches are talking about losing support staff and resources as part of budget cuts, and her school's women's soccer program is the premier sport at her particular school (DII).
> 
> I really, really hope I'm wrong.


 Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Our latest update.  CAA cancelled fall football but did not offical cancel other fall sports.  Did tell schools that they can make their own decisions.  6 out of the 10 schools then shutdown all fall sports.  4 schools include my dd's are committed to building a schedule and playing as long as the NCAA still holds their fall championship.  Bottom line we are still hitting the road on Sunday and she is reporting on to camp on 7/27.   If (or more likely when) the NCAA cancels their fall championships, everything will be shutdown.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> Our latest update.  CAA cancelled fall football but did not offical cancel other fall sports.  Did tell schools that they can make their own decisions.  6 out of the 10 schools then shutdown all fall sports.  4 schools include my dd's are committed to building a schedule and playing as long as the NCAA still holds their fall championship.  Bottom line we are still hitting the road on Sunday and she is reporting on to camp on 7/27.   If (or more likely when) the NCAA cancels their fall championships, everything will be shutdown.


UGH.  Good luck man.  All the best to your DD.  Please keep us updated!


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> Our latest update.  CAA cancelled fall football but did not offical cancel other fall sports.  Did tell schools that they can make their own decisions.  6 out of the 10 schools then shutdown all fall sports.  4 schools include my dd's are committed to building a schedule and playing as long as the NCAA still holds their fall championship.  Bottom line we are still hitting the road on Sunday and she is reporting on to camp on 7/27.   If (or more likely when) the NCAA cancels their fall championships, everything will be shutdown.


Thanks for the update!! Wishing your daughter ass the success during these crazy times. Enjoy that road trip of memories!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Simisoccerfan said:


> Our latest update.  CAA cancelled fall football but did not offical cancel other fall sports.  Did tell schools that they can make their own decisions.  6 out of the 10 schools then shutdown all fall sports.  4 schools include my dd's are committed to building a schedule and playing as long as the NCAA still holds their fall championship.  Bottom line we are still hitting the road on Sunday and she is reporting on to camp on 7/27.   If (or more likely when) the NCAA cancels their fall championships, everything will be shutdown.


soccer programs will not be able to comply with the 72 hour time table to test and receive results thus likely ending womens soccer season.


----------



## Ellejustus

eastbaysoccer said:


> soccer programs will not be able to comply with the 72 hour time table to test and receive results thus likely ending womens soccer season.


My friend waited 6 days for his results.  In the meantime everyone at his place treated him like a leper and all his neighbors ((apartments)) knew where the leper lived.  Plus, the leper had to lay in bed late at night worrying and wondering if the bat virus entered his body. Long nights of fear sucks!!  On the 6th day he was told negative.  His hole life & house shut down and it was all based on fears of the unknown.  With this mindset, nothing will stay open.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

eastbaysoccer said:


> soccer programs will not be able to comply with the 72 hour time table to test and receive results thus likely ending womens soccer season.


Most major colleges have major medical departments dedicated to their athletics.  There are plenty of tests available. Results don’t take long to process. The issue is the backlog at labs in areas that are overwhelmed.  Getting any individual test processed quickly from a free clinic is a major challenge.  Remember though colleges will be having several hundred tests done every week to test all athletes and staff.  I also bet they will be paying for the testing.  My guess that this will be the easiest of their challenges.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Also all college football players are back in camp.  They are being tested and seem not to have an issue with getting results.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> My friend waited 6 days for his results.  In the meantime everyone at his place treated him like a leper and all his neighbors ((apartments)) knew where the leper lived.  Plus, the leper had to lay in bed late at night worrying and wondering if the bat virus entered his body. Long nights of fear sucks!!  On the 6th day he was told negative.  His hole life & house shut down and it was all based on fears of the unknown.  With this mindset, nothing will stay open.


Had a friend just tell me he waited 11 days for results.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Had a friend just tell me he waited *11 days for results*.


Think about that.  11 days freaking out wondering what is in your body and according to EOTL and Copa it might or could cause brain damage and lung damage.  Basically, you're toast if you get it.  This is insane it's taking this long.  Longer the delay the more fear and the more people can spread more fear.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Ellejustus said:


> Think about that.  11 days freaking out wondering what is in your body and according to EOTL and Copa is might or could cause brain damage and lung damage.  Basically, you're toast if you get it.  This is insane it's taking this long.  Longer the delay the more fear and the more people can spread more fear.


Yep, crazy to take so long.


----------



## Ellejustus

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yep, crazy to take so long.


Results?


----------



## NorCal

Yep...was exposed to 2 people that tested positive; took the test 11 days ago, got my results this morning.


----------



## Soccer43

I guess this is one more piece to add to your consideration when going through the recruiting process.  How would this college handle a pandemic during soccer season?  We lucked out and so far looking good so not all is doom and gloom for college soccer, at least for now.


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> Also all college football players are back in camp.  They are being tested and seem not to have an issue with getting results.


@Simisoccerfan- So how did it go dropping off your DD at school? Any challenges? Would like you hear how your experience turned out..


----------



## Simisoccerfan

gotothebushes said:


> @Simisoccerfan- So how did it go dropping off your DD at school? Any challenges? Would like you hear how your experience turned out..


We left Sunday. Hit Zion, then Bryce then Arches National Park today.  Now in Grand Junction.  Next two days are all travel till the weekend in Nashville then on to JMU. Great trip with my daughters.  She reports on Monday.


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> We left Sunday. Hit Zion, then Bryce then Arches National Park today.  Now in Grand Junction.  Next two days are all travel till the weekend in Nashville then on to JMU. Great trip with my daughters.  She reports on Monday.


 Man that sounds amazing. Time you'll never have otherwise. Always wanted to go to Arches National Park. Nashville should be fun. Keep me posted. Thanks!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/what-the-coronavirus-means-for-college-sports-and-recruiting


----------



## eastbaysoccer

eastbaysoccer said:


> https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/what-the-coronavirus-means-for-college-sports-and-recruiting


I wonder if Jerry Smith will cut his expensive staff now?


----------



## Ellejustus

eastbaysoccer said:


> https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/what-the-coronavirus-means-for-college-sports-and-recruiting


"If your sport is canceled," he says, "this could be an opportunity for you to focus on your education."  Oh joy!!!!!


----------



## CaliKlines

Another one bites the dust....The MAAC just cancelled all fall sports.


----------



## 310soccer

I'm curious if anyone know the answer here regarding recruiting and committed. Mvla 04 is the best team in ECNL California correct. Why do they only have 1 04 committed to college vs other 04 teams have multiple players who have committed? Can anyone answer this question? Do the club not promote players committing too soon?


----------



## Kicker4Life

310soccer said:


> I'm curious if anyone know the answer here regarding recruiting and committed. Mvla 04 is the best team in ECNL California correct. Why do they only have 1 04 committed to college vs other 04 teams have multiple players who have committed? Can anyone answer this question? Do the club not promote players committing too soon?


How many of their ‘04’s are from the Graduating Class of 2022?


----------



## Soccerfan2

310soccer said:


> I'm curious if anyone know the answer here regarding recruiting and committed. Mvla 04 is the best team in ECNL California correct. Why do they only have 1 04 committed to college vs other 04 teams have multiple players who have committed? Can anyone answer this question? Do the club not promote players committing too soon?


They have at least 3 committed that I know of and one more that has lots of options but is taking her time.


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccerfan2 said:


> They have at least 3 committed that I know of and one more that has lots of options but is taking her time.


It is also still very early. By the time they move on to college many of those girls will be playing college soccer. 

Last year they couldn't talk to coaches. This summer they were allowed to...but I believe the NCAA pushed that date back. 

So...give it time. You will see the commits


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> We left Sunday. Hit Zion, then Bryce then Arches National Park today.  Now in Grand Junction.  Next two days are all travel till the weekend in Nashville then on to JMU. Great trip with my daughters.  She reports on Monday.


 How was the rest of you trip? Any quarantine your daughter has to go through before reporting to campus?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Back home now.  Since we were driving instead of flying their was no quarantine required prior to reporting to camp.  Upon reporting she was tested and immediately quarantined until the results are in.  This was suppose to be 3+ days but she just got her result within 24 hours and it was negative!


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> Back home now.  Since we were driving instead of flying their was no quarantine required prior to reporting to camp.  Upon reporting she was tested and immediately quarantined until the results are in.  This was suppose to be 3+ days but she just got her result within 24 hours and it was negative!


Thanks for sharing and good luck with your daughter! Big fan of women club players playing college soccer!


----------



## outside!

The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year.









						Big West Conference Provides Update On Fall Sports Competition
					

The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year. In making the decision, the Board recognized the continued serious challenges to health and safety on Big West campuses and communities...




					bigwest.org


----------



## full90

Simisoccerfan said:


> Back home now.  Since we were driving instead of flying their was no quarantine required prior to reporting to camp.  Upon reporting she was tested and immediately quarantined until the results are in.  This was suppose to be 3+ days but she just got her result within 24 hours and it was negative!


Every other school I’ve heard about says their kids arrive, isolate for 5 days and then test. They treat their first day on campus as their last possible “exposure” day and it takes a few days in order not to test too early. Interesting they tested the day they arrived. When I was exposed I couldn’t get tested until 5-7 days after the exposure date as my doctor said if I had it the test wouldn’t show it.  Were they supposed to isolate before they came in?


----------



## NorCal

310soccer said:


> I'm curious if anyone know the answer here regarding recruiting and committed. Mvla 04 is the best team in ECNL California correct. Why do they only have 1 04 committed to college vs other 04 teams have multiple players who have committed? Can anyone answer this question? Do the club not promote players committing too soon?


Currently there are 3 MVLA '04s committed: Stanford, Stanford and Santa Clara. Two of them committed last year before the rule change, the other committed recently. Can't speak for all her teammates but my daughter is taking her time, enjoying getting to know all the schools and coaches. And would not feel comfortable committing without visiting the school. The coaches have respected her timeline. Phone calls, zoom meetings and even hand written mailings are still going on. Hopefully the NCAA dead period will end soon....


----------



## Ellejustus

NorCal said:


> Currently there are 3 MVLA '04s committed: Stanford, Stanford and Santa Clara. Two of them committed last year before the rule change, the other committed recently. Can't speak for all her teammates but my daughter is taking her time, enjoying getting to know all the schools and coaches. And would not feel comfortable committing without visiting the school. The coaches have respected her timeline. Phone calls, zoom meetings and even hand written mailings are still going on. Hopefully the NCAA dead period will end soon....


I hope my dd team gets a chance to play against all that talent.  Nocal has lot's talented 04s and i think they might have the best in one area.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

full90 said:


> Every other school I’ve heard about says their kids arrive, isolate for 5 days and then test. They treat their first day on campus as their last possible “exposure” day and it takes a few days in order not to test too early. Interesting they tested the day they arrived. When I was exposed I couldn’t get tested until 5-7 days after the exposure date as my doctor said if I had it the test wouldn’t show it.  Were they supposed to isolate before they came in?


I am not a doctor or an expert on pandemics nor do I have all of the details.  My understanding was the players that were flying had to arrive early to quarantine.  Those that were driving did not have to come early but we did make extra sure that we wore mask, washed hands and stayed a distance from others.  This is only the first step.  Players are still isolated right now.  Later in the week they will start training in pods of 8 with no interaction between pods for a few weeks.  Testing will also continue.   All on the slim hope that there is a season.  My question to you is how many schools is "every other school I've heard about"?


----------



## CaliKlines

outside! said:


> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big West Conference Provides Update On Fall Sports Competition
> 
> 
> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year. In making the decision, the Board recognized the continued serious challenges to health and safety on Big West campuses and communities...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigwest.org


That blows. I wonder which P5 conference is going to be the first to fall?


----------



## dk_b

CaliKlines said:


> That blows. I wonder which P5 conference is going to be the first to fall?


as soon as they decide that the athletic department won't implode w/o a football season.


----------



## UOP

When is the WCC going to cancel the season?  If it’s unsafe for the students to return why is it safe for the athletes to return?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

UOP said:


> When is the WCC going to cancel the season?  If it’s unsafe for the students to return why is it safe for the athletes to return?


I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


I wonder if these institutions and their respective leagues are considering creating the bubble that you mention.  Have all athletes in on-campus housing where they can monitor.  For Football, seems like it should be a must.


----------



## outside!

Simisoccerfan said:


> I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


Most non-freshman athletes live in apartments off campus.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Seems like the professional bubbles are popping pretty rapidly at the moment.


----------



## warrior49

Simisoccerfan said:


> I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


Not all athletes live in a "controlled environment" like the dorms. At my DD's school only the freshmen are in dorms. All the others are in their own apartments and aren't required to stay in dorms during preseason. I have to disagree with your belief that it's safer for them on their own at college than at home. Case in point: *Rutgers football team in quarantine following a social gathering and players testing positive for Covid-19*








						Rutgers football team in quarantine following a social gathering and players testing positive for Covid-19 | CNN
					

The entire Rutgers University football program is under quarantine and has temporarily halted all in-person activities, all the result of individuals attending a gathering and 15 players testing positive for Covid-19.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## RiverRat

Simisoccerfan said:


> I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


Simi, what is your plan if/when Colonial Conference punts the season into 2021, and JMU goes to online classes? Will you drive back and get her or will she stay on campus?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

outside! said:


> Most non-freshman athletes live in apartments off campus.


For training camp most schools have their athletes live in dorms together with all costs paid until it gets close to the start of school then freshmen move into their regular dorm and other athletes move into their apartments.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

The Outlaw said:


> Seems like the professional bubbles are popping pretty rapidly at the moment.


NBA and MLS bubbles have been working.  MLB is not using a bubble thus their problems.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

warrior49 said:


> Not all athletes live in a "controlled environment" like the dorms. At my DD's school only the freshmen are in dorms. All the others are in their own apartments and aren't required to stay in dorms during preseason. I have to disagree with your belief that it's safer for them on their own at college than at home. Case in point: *Rutgers football team in quarantine following a social gathering and players testing positive for Covid-19*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rutgers football team in quarantine following a social gathering and players testing positive for Covid-19 | CNN
> 
> 
> The entire Rutgers University football program is under quarantine and has temporarily halted all in-person activities, all the result of individuals attending a gathering and 15 players testing positive for Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Same players would likely be out partying and hanging with their friends if they were living at home.  Also probably far more likely to infect their parents and grandparents.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

RiverRat said:


> Simi, what is your plan if/when Colonial Conference punts the season into 2021, and JMU goes to online classes? Will you drive back and get her or will she stay on campus?


I flew home and left her with her car at school.  If/when the season gets cancelled is not a factor.  It's if the school goes online and the team is not practicing.  Then she will have a decision to make.  It's her decision not mine.  Apartment had to be paid for regardless.  If she wants to drive back I will fly out and join her so she is not alone.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Simisoccerfan said:


> NBA and MLS bubbles have been working.  MLB is not using a bubble thus their problems.


Yes but the NBA hasn't even started yet.  MLS has been cooped up in hotel rooms in Orlando and the ladies were cooped up in SLC.  The L.A. Galaxy 2 just shut down, etc.


----------



## Eagle33

outside! said:


> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big West Conference Provides Update On Fall Sports Competition
> 
> 
> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year. In making the decision, the Board recognized the continued serious challenges to health and safety on Big West campuses and communities...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigwest.org


They still deciding whether they will be practicing in Fall


----------



## espola

outside! said:


> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big West Conference Provides Update On Fall Sports Competition
> 
> 
> The Big West Conference Board of Directors announced today that Big West fall sports competition will be postponed through the end of the calendar year. In making the decision, the Board recognized the continued serious challenges to health and safety on Big West campuses and communities...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigwest.org


It should be noted that Big West does not sponsor football, although some BW schools have football teams playing in other conferences (Cal Poly, Hawaii, UC Davis).


----------



## SD_Soccer

dk_b said:


> as soon as they decide that the athletic department won't implode w/o a football season.


Agree. Big West schools don’t depend on football for money. After Big 5 conferences lost NCAA Tourney money, they are going to do whatever they can to get football in this year. And they can’t cancel soccer and say it is not safe and then keep football.

Almost every D3 conference has cancelled fall soccer. My daughter’s school, in theory, is moving to a limited conference only spring season where they don’t use up a year of eligibility.


----------



## Eagle33

SD_Soccer said:


> Agree. Big West schools don’t depend on football for money. After Big 5 conferences lost NCAA Tourney money, they are going to do whatever they can to get football in this year. And they can’t cancel soccer and say it is not safe and then keep football.
> 
> Almost every D3 conference has cancelled fall soccer. My daughter’s school, in theory, is moving to a limited conference only spring season where they don’t use up a year of eligibility.


no one will loose a year, but does this mean my kid wants to stay in school for 5 years? I don't know....


----------



## SD_Soccer

Eagle33 said:


> no one will loose a year, but does this mean my kid wants to stay in school for 5 years? I don't know....


Yep, I don’t expect my daughter to use the 5th year. But I guess it is good for some.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

Eagle33 said:


> no one will loose a year, but does this mean my kid wants to stay in school for 5 years? I don't know....


Kudos to her if she doesn't need a 5th year.  Seems like, anymore, the schools don't want you out in 4.


----------



## outside!

Simisoccerfan said:


> For training camp most schools have their athletes live in dorms together with all costs paid until it gets close to the start of school then freshmen move into their regular dorm and other athletes move into their apartments.


When I used "most", I did not have actual data, but am probably correct since there are roughly 3 times (probably closer to 2.something times) as many non-freshman as freshman. DD's school only has incoming freshman live in dorms for pre-season training since everyone else has apartments close to campus that they are paying rent on.


----------



## EOTL

Looks like the Pac-12 is a go. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289288985269821441


----------



## warrior49

Pac-12 Womens Soccer, first games pushed back to Sept 26. So basically a six week preseason. Stand by to stand by since a lot can change between then.


----------



## CaliKlines

Eagle33 said:


> no one will loose a year, but does this mean my kid wants to stay in school for 5 years? I don't know....


Four and a half.


----------



## Copa9

Simisoccerfan said:


> I actually believe it is much safer for the student-athletes to return than for the non-athletes.  Athletes are all essentially living in a bubble with regular testing and constant oversite.   I think it is safer for them than living at home.  They are living in a strictly controlled environment.  Who knows what non-athletes will do living in apartments and attending classes.  No one will be watching over them and at the most they will be told to self monitor. When school starts and student-athletes leave camp and move into the their apartments is when the threat to student-athletes increases dramatically.


M
[QUOTE="CaliKlines, post: 348539, member: 
[/QUOTE]
So four and half years of school. That means they will be looking for a job after the majority of the college grads, from their graduating class year, have looked the previous six months, or the college grads who have already started graduate school, or they can defer grad school for a year but then be a year out of finishing that. Unless the grad school allows them to start mid year. Do the majority of grad schools do that?  Maybe they would because of loss of income from covid.   Difficult decision for sure. But then again maybe the break would be good.  Who pays for the extra semester or quarter?  Does the school continue a scholarship for an extra semester and can they afford that? Or does the player use their extra year of eligibility to help them get in grad school? Certainly a lot to think about.


----------



## dk_b

Copa9 said:


> M
> [QUOTE="CaliKlines, post: 348539, member:


So four and half years of school. That means they will be looking for a job after the majority of the college grads, from their graduating class year, have looked the previous six months, or the college grads who have already started graduate school, or they can defer grad school for a year but then be a year out of finishing that. Unless the grad school allows them to start mid year. Do the majority of grad schools do that?  Maybe they would because of loss of income from covid.   Difficult decision for sure. But then again maybe the break would be good.  Who pays for the extra semester or quarter?  Does the school continue a scholarship for an extra semester and can they afford that? Or does the player use their extra year of eligibility to help them get in grad school? Certainly a lot to think about.
[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree that there's a lot to think about but being out of cycle by 6 months is insignificant given how young these folks are.  My first year after college I worked an office job and saved money, traveled for a few months on next to nothing (with an epic hitch-hiking experience in England and Wales, getting burned trading on the black market in Prague, getting threatened by skin heads in Berlin and rousted by cops in Paris . . . so many great stories), worked for a while when I came home, did a teaching program (2d year of Teach For America's existence) and started teaching (which I did for a few years before going to grad school).  My point is that at that age, 6 months is absolutely nothing (it's really noting at our age, also (where it matters is for these folks who are up to college age).   I would not mind re-living my first year after college, even if it were only 6 months.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

What about sitting out and using that year to play as a graduate transfer?  I mean the job market is horrible now.  It might be wise to earn a MBA, MS.


----------



## gotothebushes

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289698186093715458


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gotothebushes said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289698186093715458


and that ends falls sports.


----------



## CaliKlines

CaliKlines said:


> That blows. I wonder which P5 conference is going to be the first to fall?





gotothebushes said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289698186093715458


I guess we have the answer.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Well Tuesday is decision day for fall sports.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Simisoccerfan said:


> Well Tuesday is decision day for fall sports.


things are changing so rapidly.  I suspect it will all end in a cancellation of fall sports and a resumption in the spring for specific sports.  I'm optimistic there will be a vaccine available late this year.  Then as spring continues more companies will bring their vaccine to the market and everyone can feel safer about returning to some form of normalcy.  I do wonder if colleges will make it mandatory to take the vaccine before coming back to school?


----------



## SD_Soccer

eastbaysoccer said:


> things are changing so rapidly.  I suspect it will all end in a cancellation of fall sports and a resumption in the spring for specific sports.  I'm optimistic there will be a vaccine available late this year.  Then as spring continues more companies will bring their vaccine to the market and everyone can feel safer about returning to some form of normalcy.  I do wonder if colleges will make it mandatory to take the vaccine before coming back to school?


I agree on vaccines being available. Several candidates look good (J&J, Pfizer, AZ/Oxford and likely others). I’m not sure why they don’t move all sports to spring 2021, much better chance to get the full football season in which is critical to many athletic departments.


----------



## CaliKlines

SD_Soccer said:


> I agree on vaccines being available. Several candidates look good (J&J, Pfizer, AZ/Oxford and likely others). I’m not sure why they don’t move all sports to spring 2021, much better chance to get the full football season in which is critical to many athletic departments.


Not enough facilities to handle all sports during the winter/spring. There is only so much grass to go around. In addition, the weight training facilities and medical staff. It would be a logistical nightmare. And how do you handle the College Cup tournament if some schools play in the fall and some play in the spring?


----------



## SD_Soccer

CaliKlines said:


> Not enough facilities to handle all sports during the winter/spring. There is only so much grass to go around. In addition, the weight training facilities and medical staff. It would be a logistical nightmare. And how do you handle the College Cup tournament if some schools play in the fall and some play in the spring?


All true. But football pays the bills for all sports at the top D1 schools, and they would potentially have to drop some sports this year if they moved it out. But they are already losing a ton of money with fans not likely to be at football games. Or think of the mid-tier football programs who play 2 to 3 money games each year that make all their athletic programs viable (get paid to go to Alabama or USC). I just don’t know how they get through fall football this year, or how some of the mid-tier schools make the economics work. Hope I am wrong, but I suspect we could see a lot of schools dropping sports, or going to D2 or D3 with lower scholarship (or none) requirements. I would hate to be a college athletic director, difficult spot right now.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Dropping to D3 would save money for sure


----------



## Eagle33

CaliKlines said:


> Not enough facilities to handle all sports during the winter/spring. There is only so much grass to go around. In addition, the weight training facilities and medical staff. It would be a logistical nightmare. And how do you handle the College Cup tournament if some schools play in the fall and some play in the spring?


Some schools have enough grass for all. Big South does - I've seen it. Some don't.


----------



## notintheface

eastbaysoccer said:


> I do wonder if colleges will make it mandatory to take the vaccine before coming back to school?


Yes. There are already immunization requirements to attend schools, this will just be tacked onto them.


----------



## beachbum

warrior49 said:


> Pac-12 Womens Soccer, first games pushed back to Sept 26. So basically a six week preseason. Stand by to stand by since a lot can change between then.


Pac 12 soccer - coach's aren't coaching until August 15.


----------



## beachbum

SD_Soccer said:


> I agree on vaccines being available. Several candidates look good (J&J, Pfizer, AZ/Oxford and likely others). I’m not sure why they don’t move all sports to spring 2021, much better chance to get the full football season in which is critical to many athletic departments.


Anti virals may be out by October


----------



## SD_Soccer

beachbum said:


> Anti virals may be out by October


Agree. Scientists are working collaboratively on a global level to solve this. They will get there, they just need a little more time to run through the current trials (to ensure they work and they are safe), and for some still in the development process, to get into trials. Most public focus has been on vaccines, but antivirals that effectively treat this are coming and will have a huge impact for our return to normal.


----------



## Kicker4Life

SD_Soccer said:


> Agree. Scientists are working collaboratively on a global level to solve this. They will get there, they just need a little more time to run through the current trials (to ensure they work and they are safe), and for some still in the development process, to get into trials. Most public focus has been on vaccines, but antivirals that effectively treat this are coming and will have a huge impact for our return to normal.


Exactly!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Does anyone know if players in the wcc can opt out for 2020 and retain their scholarships?  I’m hearing yes they can but some coaches aren’t mentioning this to them. Can someone confirm the former?


----------



## full90

it will be a school by school decision. 
I can’t see how a conference would mandate that decision.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

NCAA decided each Division needs to make their own decision by August 21st for Fall Sports.  Training camps continue.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> NCAA decided each Division needs to make their own decision by August 21st for Fall Sports.  Training camps continue.


What does your DD think...?  Is the prevailing opinion that it will move forward or be cancelled or nobody has any idea?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Dubs said:


> What does your DD think...?  Is the prevailing opinion that it will move forward or be cancelled or nobody has any idea?


No idea.  She is having fun but she is okay if it moves to Spring.  The thing about Spring is if they cancel the fall season there is no guarantee that NCAA will run fall sports in the Spring even if everyone is vaccinated.  Her school has the facilities and staff to run Spring and Fall seasons together but many don’t.  If it is choice between an abbreviated Fall and no sports for the year she would chose the former.  I also don’t think she wants to stay in college for 5 years.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Board directs each division to safeguard student-athlete well-being, scholarships and eligibility
					

The NCAA Board of Governors has directed schools and conferences to meet specific requirements if they are to conduct NCAA fall sports during the preseason, regular




					www.ncaa.org


----------



## eastbaysoccer

eastbaysoccer said:


> Board directs each division to safeguard student-athlete well-being, scholarships and eligibility
> 
> 
> The NCAA Board of Governors has directed schools and conferences to meet specific requirements if they are to conduct NCAA fall sports during the preseason, regular
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncaa.org


Every player can opt out which they should to preserve their eligibility.


----------



## gkrent

eastbaysoccer said:


> Does anyone know if players in the wcc can opt out for 2020 and retain their scholarships?  I’m hearing yes they can but some coaches aren’t mentioning this to them. Can someone confirm the former?


It seems that Pepperdine is allowing for this according to their AD


----------



## gkrent

Simisoccerfan said:


> I also don’t think she wants to stay in college for 5 years.


Or maybe she doesn't want to stay in *that* college for 5 years LOL


----------



## Simisoccerfan

gkrent said:


> Or maybe she doesn't want to stay in *that* college for 5 years LOL


Not the case, she loves "that" college but she plans to go to Physician Assistant school after college and needs to first get 1,000 hours of Health Care work (likely as an EMT) in first.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Division III Presidents Council cancels fall championships
					

NCAA Division III championships in fall sports for 2020-21 are canceled. With the health and safety of the division's student-athletes, coaches, athletics administrators




					www.ncaa.org
				




Division III wasted no time and cancelled all fall sports championships.  Also the key thing to note is that they are not moving fall sports to spring. They are cancelled for the entire academic year.  With no athletic scholarships I doubt those players will hang out another year in college just to play.  Seriously hope DI and DII don't follow this path.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Simisoccerfan said:


> No idea.  She is having fun but she is okay if it moves to Spring.  The thing about Spring is if they cancel the fall season there is no guarantee that NCAA will run fall sports in the Spring even if everyone is vaccinated.  Her school has the facilities and staff to run Spring and Fall seasons together but many don’t.  If it is choice between an abbreviated Fall and no sports for the year she would chose the former.  I also don’t think she wants to stay in college for 5 years.


College is the best time of her life.  Who wants a job
Where u do the same damn thing everyday w the same people!


----------



## Dargle

Simisoccerfan said:


> Division III Presidents Council cancels fall championships
> 
> 
> NCAA Division III championships in fall sports for 2020-21 are canceled. With the health and safety of the division's student-athletes, coaches, athletics administrators
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncaa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Division III wasted no time and cancelled all fall sports championships.  Also the key thing to note is that they are not moving fall sports to spring. They are cancelled for the entire academic year.  With no athletic scholarships I doubt those players will hang out another year in college just to play.  Seriously hope DI and DII don't follow this path.


That was fast.  DII cancelled all fall sports championships.  They also are not moving fall sports to spring.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/dii-presidents-council-cancels-fall-2020-championships?division=d2


----------



## jpeter

Dargle said:


> That was fast.  DII cancelled all fall sports championships.  They also are not moving fall sports to spring.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/dii-presidents-council-cancels-fall-2020-championships?division=d2


The new requirements make things more expensive $$ cutting losses or something?








						Board directs each division to safeguard student-athlete well-being, scholarships and eligibility
					

The NCAA Board of Governors has directed schools and conferences to meet specific requirements if they are to conduct NCAA fall sports during the preseason, regular




					www.ncaa.org


----------



## eastbaysoccer

All fall sports activity (preseason, regular season and postseason) must follow the recently released return-to-sport guidelines from the NCAA Sport Science Institute for all athletic activity. As the guidelines change based on the ever-changing pandemic, schools must follow any future modifications.
The NCAA will establish a phone number and email to allow college athletes, parents or others to report alleged failures. The Association will notify school and conference administrators, who will be expected to take immediate action.
All member schools must adhere to federal, state and local guidelines related to COVID-19. Further, the conduct of NCAA championships must be in line with federal, state and local guidelines.
*All student-athletes must be allowed to opt out of participation due to concerns about contracting COVID-19. If a college athlete chooses to opt out, that individual’s athletics scholarship commitment must be honored by the college or university.*
Each division must determine no later than Aug. 14 the eligibility accommodations that must be made for student-athletes who opt out of participating this fall or for those whose seasons are canceled or cut short due to COVID-19. College athletes and their families must know what their eligibility status will be before beginning the fall season.
Member schools may not require student-athletes to waive their legal rights regarding COVID-19 as a condition of athletics participation. 
Member schools, in conjunction with existing insurance standards, must cover COVID-19 related medical expenses for student-athletes to prevent out-of-pocket expenses for college athletes and their families.
Any NCAA fall championship or other postseason contests must be conducted within enhanced safety protocols for student-athletes and essential athletics personnel. These safety enhancements will include regular testing, separation of college athletes and essential personnel from all other nonessential personnel, and physical distancing and masking policies during all aspects of noncompetition. 
NCAA championships may use reduced bracketing, a reduced number of competitors, predetermined sites and, where appropriate, single sites to limit exposure to COVID-19. 
If 50% or more of eligible teams in a particular sport in a division cancel their fall season, there will be no fall NCAA championship in that sport in that division. 
If fall sports championships are postponed in any division, a decision to conduct that championship at a later date will be based upon the scientific data available at that time regarding COVID-19, along with other considerations.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

word on the street is WCC will make an announcement soon.  Likely bad news.


----------



## Zen

eastbaysoccer said:


> word on the street is WCC will make an announcement soon.  Likely bad news.


I just read Santa Clara University is starting fall online...which I assume will have a trickle effect on soccer.  At this point I just hope for spring soccer.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Once the shoe drops and the Power 5 football conferences cancel or postpone their seasons it's going to end sports for the year.  Sports can't safely occur without a bubble until their is a vaccine.  Human brains don't mature until they are 25 and you can bet that young people are going to make horrible mistakes that lead to infection.  You can't even get mature adults to put their masks over their nose.  No way can you get young adults and children to consistenly comply.  Unfortunately since this isn't China people are going to do stupid things because they know that they won't get arrested for it.  Unless they are a POC.

Good luck everyone.  Please wear a mask and do it correctly.  Your nose is connected to your lungs...


----------



## SoccerLocker

3 dismissed from Louisville soccer team for party

Dismissed UL Player releases statement

Jeez, these kids are definitely having to grow up fast!  Now an impromptu party can get your scholarship yanked.


----------



## Copa9

SoccerLocker said:


> 3 dismissed from Louisville soccer team for party
> 
> Dismissed UL Player releases statement
> 
> Jeez, these kids are definitely having to grow up fast!  Now an impromptu party can get your scholarship yanked.


The rules were very clear, plus the three dismissed had previous, serious infractions. Three more were just suspended.


----------



## GT45

I commend Louisville. These are the headlines the students need to see. There are consequences for your actions. This party outbreak shut down 4 sports at Louisville.


----------



## espola

GT45 said:


> I commend Louisville. These are the headlines the students need to see. There are consequences for your actions. This party outbreak shut down 4 sports at Louisville.











						CRAWFORD | Dismissed Louisville soccer player shares his side of the COVID story
					

The University of Louisville took the path of law and order on Thursday, kicking three players off the men’s soccer team and suspending three more in the wake of a




					www.wdrb.com


----------



## warrior49

espola said:


> CRAWFORD | Dismissed Louisville soccer player shares his side of the COVID story
> 
> 
> The University of Louisville took the path of law and order on Thursday, kicking three players off the men’s soccer team and suspending three more in the wake of a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wdrb.com


"Several uninvited student-athletes followed him in." Yeah, OK. Just forced their way into the house. Come on...


----------



## GT45

espola said:


> CRAWFORD | Dismissed Louisville soccer player shares his side of the COVID story
> 
> 
> The University of Louisville took the path of law and order on Thursday, kicking three players off the men’s soccer team and suspending three more in the wake of a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wdrb.com


Lol are you defending adult men? They could not kick people out of their house? They had a large gathering at their home. It caused this problem. It was their responsibility to remove people. They chose not to.


----------



## espola

GT45 said:


> Lol are you defending adult men? They could not kick people out of their house? They had a large gathering at their home. It caused this problem. It was their responsibility to remove people. They chose not to.


Defending?  I just linked to article.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

These young kids are doing whatever they want but their actions will result in no jobs being there for them when they graduate.


----------



## Copa9

eastbaysoccer said:


> College is the best time of her life.  Who wants a job
> Where u do the same damn thing everyday w the same people!


$$$$$$$$  If you have the resources, lucky you.


----------



## Dargle

California released its guidance on re-opening colleges and universities, which included protocols on resuming play in college athletics



			https://files.covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-higher-education--en.pdf
		


Basically, must allow opt-outs with no effect on scholarships, must not require waivers, must be able to do testing with results in at least 72 hours, must be able to do contact tracing and must share information with other schools, plus a whole bunch of facility and sanitization protocols, masking and distancing protocols off-field, positive test result protocols etc


----------



## SD_Soccer

And the first FBS conference cancels football and all fall sports. MAC conference, Eastern Michigan. Northern Illinois, etc. Not one of the big 5 conferences, but I would not be surprised to see this become a trend. Think of it this way, would you want to be a school president and decide to play and then have a coach or player pass from this? You likely lose your job if it happens, or certainly see a huge lawsuit that could cripple the university. You don’t take any risk of losing your job by delaying to spring. I would be surprised if the big 5 conferences are not talking about this offline.

I again say move football to spring where you are more likely to get the season in and potentially save your school’s athletic future (since many schools athletic departments are funded by football and basketball). These are not easy decisions for anyone dealing with opening schools or doing sports.









						MAC is first FBS to nix fall football, eyes spring
					

The Mid-American Conference on Saturday became the first FBS conference to postpone the fall football season amid the coronavirus pandemic and will instead look to play in the spring.




					www.espn.com


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Big ten and Pac-12 will cancel football tomorrow.  And there puts the end to all fall sports.  Say goodbye to your verbal offers as schools will likely reduce scholarships, lay off assistants, furlough head coaches, etc.  A very sad day indeed.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

It’s official. JMU suspended fall sports.  The team was told after practice this morning. I commend them for trying to have a season but too much of a battle trying to put a schedule together.  Camp broke today so she will be moving into her apartment later today.  Once school starts in two weeks they will hold daily practice.  Now its a waiting game to see if the NCAA will try to hold D1 sports in the spring or at least allow an expanded Spring Season over the normal few games allowed.


----------



## Dargle

Simisoccerfan said:


> It’s official. JMU suspended fall sports.  The team was told after practice this morning. I commend them for trying to have a season but too much of a battle trying to put a schedule together.  Camp broke today so she will be moving into her apartment later today.  Once school starts in two weeks they will hold daily practice.  Now its a waiting game to see if the NCAA will try to hold D1 sports in the spring or at least allow an expanded Spring Season over the normal few games allowed.


Are they going to treat the fall like the spring under NCAA rules in terms of the number of practices permitted etc or is basically fall rules with no games?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Dargle said:


> Are they going to treat the fall like the spring under NCAA rules in terms of the number of practices permitted etc or is basically fall rules with no games?


No idea.  They are waiting on compliance guidance from the NCAA.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> It’s official. JMU suspended fall sports.  The team was told after practice this morning. I commend them for trying to have a season but too much of a battle trying to put a schedule together.  Camp broke today so she will be moving into her apartment later today.  Once school starts in two weeks they will hold daily practice.  Now its a waiting game to see if the NCAA will try to hold D1 sports in the spring or at least allow an expanded Spring Season over the normal few games allowed.


Shit!!


----------



## full90

eastbaysoccer said:


> Big ten and Pac-12 will cancel football tomorrow.  And there puts the end to all fall sports.  Say goodbye to your verbal offers as schools will likely reduce scholarships, lay off assistants, furlough head coaches, etc.  A very sad day indeed.


Not at all true. Geez.


----------



## espola

eastbaysoccer said:


> Big ten and Pac-12 will cancel football tomorrow.  And there puts the end to all fall sports.  Say goodbye to your verbal offers as schools will likely reduce scholarships, lay off assistants, furlough head coaches, etc.  A very sad day indeed.


Are you Dan Patrick?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292810469779136512


----------



## eastbaysoccer

full90 said:


> Not at all true. Geez.


Not officially true until an announcement is made.


----------



## full90

No. Like not true at all. Half the w soccer conferences don’t even have football so losing fall football money isn’t a thing. The majority of the rest don’t make big money on football so there’s not as much to lose. Plus they won’t be spending much fall money on travel, food, game day staff, marketing etc etc. For the vast majority of schools no football doesn’t mean much financially. The big hit comes from no students on campus and that impacts athletic funding provided by the school. But that’s TBA.

for a few of the Big Boys, yes, no football means massive bleeding. But they also have a ton of things to cut that will go way before scholarships.

your panic post is just that: panic. Exactly no one knows how this will shake out and trickle down to sports like w soccer. No need to drum up fear and pearl clutching before there’s any basis to do so.


----------



## dk_b

full90 said:


> No. Like not true at all. Half the w soccer conferences don’t even have football so losing fall football money isn’t a thing. The majority of the rest don’t make big money on football so there’s not as much to lose. Plus they won’t be spending much fall money on travel, food, game day staff, marketing etc etc. For the vast majority of schools no football doesn’t mean much financially. The big hit comes from no students on campus and that impacts athletic funding provided by the school. But that’s TBA.
> 
> for a few of the Big Boys, yes, no football means massive bleeding. But they also have a ton of things to cut that will go way before scholarships.
> 
> your panic post is just that: panic. Exactly no one knows how this will shake out and trickle down to sports like w soccer. No need to drum up fear and pearl clutching before there’s any basis to do so.


The full impact across the NCAA will take a bit of time but the P5 conferences do hold a lot of sway.  If there is a spring season that counts as a year of eligibility (unlike most spring seasons), I think the impact will be relatively small in terms of budgets, verbal offers, etc.  But I'd expect the mid-November NLI date to get punted to the old early Feb date so that the full extent of 20-21 is known.  If spring does not count as a year of eligibility, I think verbals will be revisited as each program (whether or not P5, whether or not a school has football) figures out how many seniors would come back for a 5th year, whether those seniors have guaranteed $$$, whether the NCAA increases the # of scholarships/team, whether a specific program has the $$$ if the NCAA does allow more scholarships (just match up the stars and the dollars . . . if you have a Sr on a full ride and a HS Sr expecting a full ride, well the $$$ needs to come from others or the $$$ needs to drop for that star HS Sr).  Programs can't go into binding agreements (NLI) while the structure of spring is TBD and can't know just how many spots are available in 2021 and beyond until the NCAA provides guidance on a number of variables.

I don't think anyone is stoking fear, just spit-balling on the nuance related to this decision (and I do agree - despite credible reporting, we need to see the specific conference(s) making announcements before speculating too much)


----------



## espola

full90 said:


> No. Like not true at all. Half the w soccer conferences don’t even have football so losing fall football money isn’t a thing. The majority of the rest don’t make big money on football so there’s not as much to lose. Plus they won’t be spending much fall money on travel, food, game day staff, marketing etc etc. For the vast majority of schools no football doesn’t mean much financially. The big hit comes from no students on campus and that impacts athletic funding provided by the school. But that’s TBA.
> 
> for a few of the Big Boys, yes, no football means massive bleeding. But they also have a ton of things to cut that will go way before scholarships.
> 
> your panic post is just that: panic. Exactly no one knows how this will shake out and trickle down to sports like w soccer. No need to drum up fear and pearl clutching before there’s any basis to do so.


Only about 20 or so NCAA football programs turn a profit and thus are able to fund other sports.









						Be skeptical when big college athletic departments act broke
					

Official numbers need to be taken with several grains of salt.




					www.bannersociety.com


----------



## full90

dk_b said:


> The full impact across the NCAA will take a bit of time but the P5 conferences do hold a lot of sway.  If there is a spring season that counts as a year of eligibility (unlike most spring seasons), I think the impact will be relatively small in terms of budgets, verbal offers, etc.  But I'd expect the mid-November NLI date to get punted to the old early Feb date so that the full extent of 20-21 is known.  If spring does not count as a year of eligibility, I think verbals will be revisited as each program (whether or not P5, whether or not a school has football) figures out how many seniors would come back for a 5th year, whether those seniors have guaranteed $$$, whether the NCAA increases the # of scholarships/team, whether a specific program has the $$$ if the NCAA does allow more scholarships (just match up the stars and the dollars . . . if you have a Sr on a full ride and a HS Sr expecting a full ride, well the $$$ needs to come from others or the $$$ needs to drop for that star HS Sr).  Programs can't go into binding agreements (NLI) while the structure of spring is TBD and can't know just how many spots are available in 2021 and beyond until the NCAA provides guidance on a number of variables.
> 
> I don't think anyone is stoking fear, just spit-balling on the nuance related to this decision (and I do agree - despite credible reporting, we need to see the specific conference(s) making announcements before speculating too much)


agree on the discussion about how will schools juggle scholarship allotment. That’s a lot of figure out and whether or not spring happens is a huge piece of it. But the original post insinuated that the cancelling of football means financial devastation across the board, which isn’t true. We don’t even know anything yet. Everyone is already on edge, grieving, stressed and there are so many unknowns. To throw loss of scholarships, coaches leaving and what have you is unnecessary.


----------



## Patandpats

espola said:


> Only about 20 or so NCAA football programs turn a profit and thus are able to fund other sports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be skeptical when big college athletic departments act broke
> 
> 
> Official numbers need to be taken with several grains of salt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bannersociety.com


The article you linked to makes clear that way more than 20 schools make a profit. It's all accounting b.s. If a kid's scholarship costs $60,000, the athletic department doesn't write the school a check for 60k.  They just say that's what the school is spending on its athletes. Almost every D1 program makes a profit.  This was actually my thesis topic.  And they'd make a bigger profit if they didn't do dumb things like house teams in hotels the night before home games, travel with a couple hundred of people for bowl games a week in advance, play one off games across the country, etc.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dk_b said:


> The full impact across the NCAA will take a bit of time but the P5 conferences do hold a lot of sway.  If there is a spring season that counts as a year of eligibility (unlike most spring seasons), I think the impact will be relatively small in terms of budgets, verbal offers, etc.  But I'd expect the mid-November NLI date to get punted to the old early Feb date so that the full extent of 20-21 is known.  If spring does not count as a year of eligibility, I think verbals will be revisited as each program (whether or not P5, whether or not a school has football) figures out how many seniors would come back for a 5th year, whether those seniors have guaranteed $$$, whether the NCAA increases the # of scholarships/team, whether a specific program has the $$$ if the NCAA does allow more scholarships (just match up the stars and the dollars . . . if you have a Sr on a full ride and a HS Sr expecting a full ride, well the $$$ needs to come from others or the $$$ needs to drop for that star HS Sr).  Programs can't go into binding agreements (NLI) while the structure of spring is TBD and can't know just how many spots are available in 2021 and beyond until the NCAA provides guidance on a number of variables.
> 
> I don't think anyone is stoking fear, just spit-balling on the nuance related to this decision (and I do agree - despite credible reporting, we need to see the specific conference(s) making announcements before speculating too much)


I agree that there are many questions that need to be answered with main two being will there be a Spring season and does it count as a year of eligibility?  If not, how many seniors are coming back?  Are those seniors getting money (often programs backload offers that can increase in the later years), will the school extend the money into the final year?  Since no 2021 grads have signed offers yet (just verbals) things can change for them too.   I know that in normal circumstances colleges don't want to back out of verbals but who knows now since a verbal is not binding.  I also would assume that Juniors, Sophomores and Freshmen all will get another year of elgilibilty if they want.   It is very reasonable to expect colleges not to extend as many offers in the next few years.  Instead they may chose to either not spend the full 14 scholarships or increase the amount the current players that are making an impact get.


----------



## dk_b

full90 said:


> agree on the discussion about how will schools juggle scholarship allotment. That’s a lot of figure out and whether or not spring happens is a huge piece of it. But the original post insinuated that the cancelling of football means financial devastation across the board, which isn’t true. We don’t even know anything yet. Everyone is already on edge, grieving, stressed and there are so many unknowns. To throw loss of scholarships, coaches leaving and what have you is unnecessary.


I agree with much of what you are saying but I guess I just took it differently.  I just got off the phone with my own kid - she's been on campus for a month, working out in her pod and waiting to start full team workouts. Today she spoke with some football players in the weight room. It's complex and there is grieving and stress, no doubt.  And that will trickle down.  But as @Simisoccerfan, it is not a usual period (I know you - and everyone else - know that, too). I struggle most in the absence of information so these next weeks and possibly (likely?) months waiting for this to get settled, and knowing that it can all change again if, come January, rapid tests have not be broadly deployed, we are still saying, "what's the plan for tracing?", there are few proven therapeutics, etc., makes it all the more difficult.  I am sorry for the stress that all the young people - and their parents -are feeling.  It really, really sucks.  Stay safe, everyone.  And as is often said in jest but I am saying w/sincerity, make good choices (whatever they might be).


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dk_b said:


> I agree with much of what you are saying but I guess I just took it differently.  I just got off the phone with my own kid - she's been on campus for a month, working out in her pod and waiting to start full team workouts. Today she spoke with some football players in the weight room. It's complex and there is grieving and stress, no doubt.  And that will trickle down.  But as @Simisoccerfan, it is not a usual period (I know you - and everyone else - know that, too). I struggle most in the absence of information so these next weeks and possibly (likely?) months waiting for this to get settled, and knowing that it can all change again if, come January, rapid tests have not be broadly deployed, we are still saying, "what's the plan for tracing?", there are few proven therapeutics, etc., makes it all the more difficult.  I am sorry for the stress that all the young people - and their parents -are feeling.  It really, really sucks.  Stay safe, everyone.  And as is often said in jest but I am saying w/sincerity, make good choices (whatever they might be).


Unfortunately I think D1 will be below the 50% threshold for a women's soccer championship within a few days at which point everyone will cancel the fall season.


----------



## SD_Soccer

Simisoccerfan said:


> I agree that there are many questions that need to be answered with main two being will there be a Spring season and does it count as a year of eligibility?  If not, how many seniors are coming back?  Are those seniors getting money (often programs backload offers that can increase in the later years), will the school extend the money into the final year?  Since no 2021 grads have signed offers yet (just verbals) things can change for them too.   I know that in normal circumstances colleges don't want to back out of verbals but who knows now since a verbal is not binding.  I also would assume that Juniors, Sophomores and Freshmen all will get another year of elgilibilty if they want.   It is very reasonable to expect colleges not to extend as many offers in the next few years.  Instead they may chose to either not spend the full 14 scholarships or increase the amount the current players that are making an impact get.


For my daughter (D3), they are playing a limited spring season (9 games and conference tourney) and retaining a year of eligibility. I guess they could not play more than 10 games (league tourney counts as 1 no matter how many games they play) to retain the year. Not sure how many players will take the extra year?

Agree with some of the sentiments. There are a lot of questions for everyone— current players, verbal commits, not yet committed, etc. Until we know, we don’t know...


----------



## espola

Patandpats said:


> The article you linked to makes clear that way more than 20 schools make a profit. It's all accounting b.s. If a kid's scholarship costs $60,000, the athletic department doesn't write the school a check for 60k.  They just say that's what the school is spending on its athletes. Almost every D1 program makes a profit.  This was actually my thesis topic.  And they'd make a bigger profit if they didn't do dumb things like house teams in hotels the night before home games, travel with a couple hundred of people for bowl games a week in advance, play one off games across the country, etc.


Makes clear?


----------



## full90

And as the news keeps coming in today and it looks like it’s over for w soccer I do want to say I’m sorry to all the parents and athletes this impacts. It just stinks. I know there’s bigger stuff happening but for those of us in this small world it’s really sad and hard. I wish it wasn’t like this. And even tho some of us disagree on here sometimes, I’m united with everyone that this just stinks and I feel for everyone.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Simisoccerfan said:


> It’s official. JMU suspended fall sports.  The team was told after practice this morning. I commend them for trying to have a season but too much of a battle trying to put a schedule together.  Camp broke today so she will be moving into her apartment later today.  Once school starts in two weeks they will hold daily practice.  Now its a waiting game to see if the NCAA will try to hold D1 sports in the spring or at least allow an expanded Spring Season over the normal few games allowed.


Sorry to hear this.  Good luck to you and you player.


----------



## MakeAPlay

It was going to happen from the beginning.  Unfortunately people won't even cover their noses with a mask.  Without a bubble sports will need a vaccine.


----------



## full90

PAC 12 announcement tomorrow. Some coaches have already told their teams.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Just saw the Mountain West postponed all Fall Sports.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MakeAPlay said:


> Once the shoe drops and the Power 5 football conferences cancel or postpone their seasons it's going to end sports for the year.  Sports can't safely occur without a bubble until their is a vaccine.  Human brains don't mature until they are 25 and you can bet that young people are going to make horrible mistakes that lead to infection.  You can't even get mature adults to put their masks over their nose.  No way can you get young adults and children to consistenly comply.  Unfortunately since this isn't China people are going to do stupid things because they know that they won't get arrested for it.  Unless they are a POC.
> 
> Good luck everyone.  Please wear a mask and do it correctly.  Your nose is connected to your lungs...


Yeah... those poor POC and their house parties and strip clubs.  So sad.


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> It’s official. JMU suspended fall sports.  The team was told after practice this morning. I commend them for trying to have a season but too much of a battle trying to put a schedule together.  Camp broke today so she will be moving into her apartment later today.  Once school starts in two weeks they will hold daily practice.  Now its a waiting game to see if the NCAA will try to hold D1 sports in the spring or at least allow an expanded Spring Season over the normal few games allowed.


 Sorry to hear that @Simisoccerfan! I hope your daughter will continue to have a great first year college experience. Good Luck!!


----------



## gotothebushes

SD_Soccer said:


> For my daughter (D3), they are playing a limited spring season (9 games and conference tourney) and retaining a year of eligibility. I guess they could not play more than 10 games (league tourney counts as 1 no matter how many games they play) to retain the year. Not sure how many players will take the extra year?
> 
> Agree with some of the sentiments. There are a lot of questions for everyone— current players, verbal commits, not yet committed, etc. Until we know, we don’t know...


 Sorry to hear about your daughter experience @ SD_Soccer. I hope things work out with you and your family.


----------



## gotothebushes

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... those poor POC and their house parties and strip clubs.  So sad.


 Not even necessary! Probably didn't even deserve a response.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

gotothebushes said:


> Not even necessary! Probably didn't even deserve a response.


It was definitely necessary.  The rest of us are tired of all the whining.


----------



## gotothebushes

The Outlaw said:


> It was definitely necessary.  The rest of us are tired of all the whining.


 Going back on MUTE! Enjoy the responses from your 3 friends!!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

gotothebushes said:


> Going back on MUTE! Enjoy the responses from your 3 friends!!


Stock up on Midol, princess.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

full90 said:


> No. Like not true at all. Half the w soccer conferences don’t even have football so losing fall football money isn’t a thing. The majority of the rest don’t make big money on football so there’s not as much to lose. Plus they won’t be spending much fall money on travel, food, game day staff, marketing etc etc. For the vast majority of schools no football doesn’t mean much financially. The big hit comes from no students on campus and that impacts athletic funding provided by the school. But that’s TBA.
> 
> for a few of the Big Boys, yes, no football means massive bleeding. But they also have a ton of things to cut that will go way before scholarships.
> 
> your panic post is just that: panic. Exactly no one knows how this will shake out and trickle down to sports like w soccer. No need to drum up fear and pearl clutching before there’s any basis to do so.





full90 said:


> No. Like not true at all. Half the w soccer conferences don’t even have football so losing fall football money isn’t a thing. The majority of the rest don’t make big money on football so there’s not as much to lose. Plus they won’t be spending much fall money on travel, food, game day staff, marketing etc etc. For the vast majority of schools no football doesn’t mean much financially. The big hit comes from no students on campus and that impacts athletic funding provided by the school. But that’s TBA.
> 
> for a few of the Big Boys, yes, no football means massive bleeding. But they also have a ton of things to cut that will go way before scholarships.
> 
> your panic post is just that: panic. Exactly no one knows how this will shake out and trickle down to sports like w soccer. No need to drum up fear and pearl clutching before there’s any basis to do so.


How do universities balance the budget with lost income in tuition and housing?  raise tuition?


----------



## EOTL

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... those poor POC and their house parties and strip clubs.  So sad.


@Dominic. Do racist posts blaming people of color for causing the pandemic because they go to strip clubs and house parties meet your guidelines?


----------



## EOTL

The Outlaw said:


> Stock up on Midol, princess.


@Dominic. Do homophobic LGBT slurs meet your guidelines?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

EOTL said:


> @Dominic. Do racist posts blaming people of color for causing the pandemic because they go to strip clubs and house parties meet your guidelines?


Crawled out from your rock?  What do you think POC stands for?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

EOTL said:


> @Dominic. Do homophobic LGBT slurs meet your guidelines?


Midol is an over the counter drug that helps relieve menstrual cramps.  You don't think a princess can get menstrual cramps?


----------



## Dominic

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... those poor POC and their house parties and strip clubs.  So sad.


Warned


----------



## Copa9

dk_b said:


> The full impact across the NCAA will take a bit of time but the P5 conferences do hold a lot of sway.  If there is a spring season that counts as a year of eligibility (unlike most spring seasons), I think the impact will be relatively small in terms of budgets, verbal offers, etc.  But I'd expect the mid-November NLI date to get punted to the old early Feb date so that the full extent of 20-21 is known.  If spring does not count as a year of eligibility, I think verbals will be revisited as each program (whether or not P5, whether or not a school has football) figures out how many seniors would come back for a 5th year, whether those seniors have guaranteed $$$, whether the NCAA increases the # of scholarships/team, whether a specific program has the $$$ if the NCAA does allow more scholarships (just match up the stars and the dollars . . . if you have a Sr on a full ride and a HS Sr expecting a full ride, well the $$$ needs to come from others or the $$$ needs to drop for that star HS Sr).  Programs can't go into binding agreements (NLI) while the structure of spring is TBD and can't know just how many spots are available in 2021 and beyond until the NCAA provides guidance on a number of variables.
> 
> I don't think anyone is stoking fear, just spit-balling on the nuance related to this decision (and I do agree - despite credible reporting, we need to see the specific conference(s) making announcements before speculating too much)


Full rides are for four years, they don't all automatically go to a five year scholarship. Eligibility is still four years, unused year(s) can be used in graduate schools or for a fifth year. I am sure NCAA will address all these issues at some point.


----------



## espola

Copa9 said:


> Full rides are for four years, they don't all automatically go to a five year scholarship. Eligibility is still four years, unused year(s) can be used in graduate schools or for a fifth year. I am sure NCAA will address all these issues at some point.


Some conferences and schools promise 4 years.  For most, it is one year at a time with various escape clauses (behavior, grades, health, etc)


----------



## dk_b

Copa9 said:


> Full rides are for four years, they don't all automatically go to a five year scholarship. Eligibility is still four years, unused year(s) can be used in graduate schools or for a fifth year. I am sure NCAA will address all these issues at some point.


The playout in the current situation remains to be seen and, as you note, I am sure the NCAA will address these issues. I'm confident that, like for spring sports last academic year, students would not lose a year of eligibility if there is no soccer in 20-21 (meaning that it won't even count for the 4 years in 5 w/which they need to use up eligibility). What remains to be seen is if the NCAA or the specific conferences require honoring the award for that 5th year (that is among the list of demands that the P5 football players put forward). If that is the case, the awards would no longer be 4 year awards (yes, I know how they are structured) and would, theoretically or mandatorily be 5 year awards. And whether or not the prior award (the 5th year Sr's 4th year level) is necessary, I'd expect that the NCAA would permit schools paying that 5th year (so whether it is theoretical, optional or mandatory . . . that needs to shake out). So if we are matching up the $$$ that was expected to come off the books v the $$$ that come on with the incoming class, I doubt that the high-level recruit will be impacted if the 5th year player remains but it is hard to imagine that there'd be zero impact on the recruiting class as a whole.  I expect that there will be a period of compression - of rosters, of dollars - before things routine to "normal".


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Copa9 said:


> Full rides are for four years, they don't all automatically go to a five year scholarship. Eligibility is still four years, unused year(s) can be used in graduate schools or for a fifth year. I am sure NCAA will address all these issues at some point.


This is soccer. Just about no one has a full ride.  My guess is that if your an impact player the coach will find a way to extend the scholarship to the 5th tear.


----------



## MakeAPlay

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... those poor POC and their house parties and strip clubs.  So sad.


I just want the guy in line to cover his nose.  I probably don't need to tell you this but he wasn't black like me..


----------



## MakeAPlay

The Outlaw said:


> It was definitely necessary.  The rest of us are tired of all the whining.


Whining about equality. You sure are no Cassius Marcellus Clay.  You are more like a David Duke.  Don't worry about me chief.  I'm doing fine.  I know that you hate reality but it's staring you in the face.  You can continue with you white greivance though.  Thankfully it's still a free country although you probably hold the 2nd amendment higher in your mind than the 1st, 13th, 14th, 15th 16th and the 19th.  I don't although I have more than one gun.....  POC's are armed now FYI....


----------



## MakeAPlay

The Outlaw said:


> Crawled out from your rock?  What do you think POC stands for?


Hey I believe that even the crap that you want to spew is protected by the 1st amendment.  You see people not like you as less than human.  Sad.


----------



## MakeAPlay

This guy was a hero.  If we could all be more like him we would have a more equal America.  Stay safe everyone!!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Hard to predict what happens at this point with things changing so rapid


Simisoccerfan said:


> This is soccer. Just about no one has a full ride.  My guess is that if your an impact player the coach will find a way to extend the scholarship to the 5th tear.


Yes extend at the expense of who?  Current players , incoming recruits?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Big Ten cancelled their fall season.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

eastbaysoccer said:


> Hard to predict what happens at this point with things changing so rapid
> 
> 
> Yes extend at the expense of who?  Current players , incoming recruits?


My guess would be at the expense of incoming recruits.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MakeAPlay said:


> Hey I believe that even the crap that you want to spew is protected by the 1st amendment.  You see people not like you as less than human.  Sad.


No, not really.  I see everyone having the same rules.  You play by them or you don't.  If you don't, there are consequences.

... like not playing scrimmages and risking a club sanction when we're all on lock down.  Like staying home in your bubble at night so all athletes have the same opportunity to play.


----------



## Dominic

MakeAPlay said:


> Whining about equality. You sure are no Cassius Marcellus Clay.  You are more like a David Duke.  Don't worry about me chief.  I'm doing fine.  I know that you hate reality but it's staring you in the face.  You can continue with you white greivance though.  Thankfully it's still a free country although you probably hold the 2nd amendment higher in your mind than the 1st, 13th, 14th, 15th 16th and the 19th.  I don't although I have more than one gun.....  POC's are armed now FYI....


*MAP, OUTLAW HAS ALREADY BEEN WARNED, AND NOW YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. KEEP THESE TYPE OF POSTS IN OFF TOPIC.*


----------



## Copa9

dk_b said:


> I agree with much of what you are saying but I guess I just took it differently.  I just got off the phone with my own kid - she's been on campus for a month, working out in her pod and waiting to start full team workouts. Today she spoke with some football players in the weight room. It's complex and there is grieving and stress, no doubt.  And that will trickle down.  But as @Simisoccerfan, it is not a usual period (I know you - and everyone else - know that, too). I struggle most in the absence of information so these next weeks and possibly (likely?) months waiting for this to get settled, and knowing that it can all!    change again if, come January, rapid tests have not be broadly deployed, we are still saying, "what's the plan for tracing?", there are few proven therapeutics, etc., makes it all the more difficult.  I am sorry for the stress that all the young people - and their parents -are feeling.  It really, really sucks.  Stay safe, everyone.  And as is often said in jest but I am saying w/sincerity, make good choices (whatever they might be).





Simisoccerfan said:


> My guess would be at the expense of incoming recruits.


Another reason academics are soooo important!  A 4.4 is going to get you a lot more than a 3.6.  Add in high test scores too.


----------



## gotothebushes

Rh


Dominic said:


> Warned
> [/QUOTE
> Thank you!!


----------



## Desert Hound

And now Pac 12


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Sorry everyone.  Pac 12 is done too for the year too.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> My guess would be at the expense of incoming recruits.


In what way?  Losing scholly $$?  Being decommitted?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Looks like the Pac 12 took things a bit further and said no sports till next year.   This is the first conference I have seen saying Basketball won't start on time.


----------



## Desert Hound

Simisoccerfan said:


> Looks like the Pac 12 took things a bit further and said no sports till next year.   This is the first conference I have seen saying Basketball won't start on time.


To be honest 1 of 2 things have to happen to have a spring season. 

1. People saying enough and lets move on with life
2. A vaccine

Without one of those 2 things happening...come the end of December we will be reading similar headlines from various conferences regarding spring  sports.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Dubs said:


> In what way?  Losing scholly $$?  Being decommitted?


Dubs, I am only speculating.   But if they need to find athletic money to bring seniors back and also extend the current other three clases another year it needs to come from somewhere.  Sure the NCAA might allow teams to go above the 14 scholarship limit for a few years but with no Football they might not have the money to do that.   Put it this way would you rather invest scholarship money in another year for your impact players or let them go and invest in unproven, future talent?


----------



## Eagle33

Desert Hound said:


> To be honest 1 of 2 things have to happen to have a spring season.
> 
> 1. People saying enough and lets move on with life
> 2. A vaccine
> 
> Without one of those 2 things happening...come the end of December we will be reading similar headlines from various conferences regarding spring  sports.


Vaccine, when out, will not be available for everyone for a while. Doctors and 1st responders will be a priority. Judging that Athletes (specially soccer) are at the bottom of the list, I suspect Spring soccer is not an option.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> To be honest 1 of 2 things have to happen to have a spring season.
> 
> 1. People saying enough and lets move on with _sickness and death_
> 2. A vaccine
> 
> Without one of those 2 things happening...come the end of December we will be reading similar headlines from various conferences regarding spring  sports.


I fixed it for you.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

PAC 12 shut it down


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I fixed it for you.


Haven't all your kids aged out of youth soccer?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Eagle33 said:


> Vaccine, when out, will not be available for everyone for a while. Doctors and 1st responders will be a priority. Judging that Athletes (specially soccer) are at the bottom of the list, I suspect Spring soccer is not an option.


100% agree.  There will be a vaccine available but distribution will be an issue and as a result there won’t be college soccer until fall.  I’m very certain there will be a 2021 fall season for colleges that have not killed their programs.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> Dubs, I am only speculating.   But if they need to find athletic money to bring seniors back and also extend the current other three clases another year it needs to come from somewhere.  Sure the NCAA might allow teams to go above the 14 scholarship limit for a few years but with no Football they might not have the money to do that.   Put it this way would you rather invest scholarship money in another year for your impact players or let them go and invest in unproven, future talent?


That makes sense.  Really hope things work out for 2021s and beyond.  What a massive cluster F.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> Haven't all your kids aged out of youth soccer?


What's your point?


----------



## notintheface

Eagle33 said:


> Vaccine, when out, will not be available for everyone for a while. Doctors and 1st responders will be a priority. Judging that Athletes (specially soccer) are at the bottom of the list, I suspect Spring soccer is not an option.


Agree about distribution-- however, there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel. Many vaccine candidates are already ramping up production in anticipation of wide distribution once they pass trials, so that first wave of doctors, first responders, nursing home caregivers, etc, will likely all be able to be vaccinated within weeks. Then you'll probably get high-risk candidates based on age and doctors recommendations, then opening up to general use shortly thereafter. And of course last will be the antivaxxers who finally realize they won't be able to do anything in society without proof of being vaccinated.


----------



## Desert Hound

notintheface said:


> Many vaccine candidates are already ramping up production in anticipation of wide distribution


That seems unlikely. 

You dont start manufacturing something you dont know will work.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> That seems unlikely.
> 
> You dont start manufacturing something you dont know will work.


Actually, several are manufacturing before Phase 3 Testing is complete with government backing. That's how they are compressing the timeline.


----------



## dk_b

I think there are other scenarios that would allow for a spring season prior to a vaccine - eg, mass deployment of rapid testing (the technology already exists); better therapeutic options; a more significant intervening lock-down; national policy of, and high levels of compliance with, mask wearing/social distancing (not necessarily isolation or quarantine).

Maybe loss of football across the country will have the requisite impact on people who might otherwise be reluctant to comply.

Other countries have brought their #s way, way down - even some that started out struggling - and even their "spikes" are in the hundreds, not the thousands. If the #s can be brought down and congregant living can have some controls to limit density, I don't think it's just (i) vaccine or (ii) come what may.


----------



## espola

Nebraska and Iowa were the two B10 schools that voted to continue football in the Fall.  Let them play a best-of-eleven series, one game a week, to settle the conference championship.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

A vaccine is a reality.  Some work well, others not as well.  We could find ourselves getting multiple shots.  Once that occurs we can all feel more comfortable about resuming our normal lives.

vaccines are being mass produced now.  Let’s hope we guessed right.  If so maybe we see spring soccer.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

espola said:


> Nebraska and Iowa were the two B10 schools that voted to continue football in the Fall.  Let them play a best-of-eleven series, one game a week, to settle the conference championship.


They will play until one of their 350 pound lineman contracts COVID and gets very ill.


----------



## Copa9

Simisoccerfan said:


> Dubs, I am only speculating.   But if they need to find athletic money to bring seniors back and also extend the current other three clases another year it needs to come from somewhere.  Sure the NCAA might allow teams to go above the 14 scholarship limit for a few years but with no Football they might not have the money to do that.   Put it this way would you rather invest scholarship money in another year for your impact players or let them go and invest in unproven, future talent?


Well, in the end it will be up to the student.  Four years and graduate or go a fifth year and postpone plans for after graduation especially if the majority of your friends are graduating and moving on with their lives. Certainly some difficult decisions for student athletes.  Who knows, maybe even some juniors and sophomores decide to give it up after a year long break if there is no spring league/competition.


----------



## SD_Soccer

gotothebushes said:


> Sorry to hear about your daughter experience @ SD_Soccer. I hope things work out with you and your family.


Appreciate it. She is doing pretty well. She is disappointed, but excited to be back at school and training in the fall. We had been expecting this for a long time, so it was not a surprise to her.


----------



## vegasguy

I think the grades are fluid.  A 3.5 did not qualify for admission for a school on a pre-read but that schools coach referred my son to another school a there is good opportunity there.


----------



## Imtired

Copa9 said:


> Well, in the end it will be up to the student.  Four years and graduate or go a fifth year and postpone plans for after graduation especially if the majority of your friends are graduating and moving on with their lives. Certainly some difficult decisions for student athletes.  Who knows, maybe even some juniors and sophomores decide to give it up after a year long break if there is no spring league/competition.


And some of the very top players might decide to go Pro.  Would you want to go through a 5th year of school in order to play college soccer or would you prefer to graduate and go pro?  I would think the latter(?)


----------



## Ellejustus

Go pro!


----------



## Keepermom2

Sorry if this article was already posted.

"Myocarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle, has been found in at least five Big Ten Conference athletes and among several other athletes in other conferences, according to two sources with knowledge of athletes' medical care.  The condition is usually caused by a viral infection, including those that cause the common cold, H1N1 influenza or mononucleosis. Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic."

"Dr. Matthew Martinez, director of sports cardiology for Atlantic Health System in New Jersey, said he has received calls from physicians from at least a dozen Power 5 schools who have identified more than a dozen athletes with some post-COVID-19 myocardial injury. He said about half of them had symptoms."








						Heart issue linked to virus drives Power 5 concern
					

A rare heart condition that could be linked to COVID-19 has been found in several athletes in the Big Ten and other Power 5 conferences.




					www.espn.com


----------



## dk_b

Keepermom2 said:


> Sorry if this article was already posted.
> 
> "Myocarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle, has been found in at least five Big Ten Conference athletes and among several other athletes in other conferences, according to two sources with knowledge of athletes' medical care.  The condition is usually caused by a viral infection, including those that cause the common cold, H1N1 influenza or mononucleosis. Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic."
> 
> "Dr. Matthew Martinez, director of sports cardiology for Atlantic Health System in New Jersey, said he has received calls from physicians from at least a dozen Power 5 schools who have identified more than a dozen athletes with some post-COVID-19 myocardial injury. He said about half of them had symptoms."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heart issue linked to virus drives Power 5 concern
> 
> 
> A rare heart condition that could be linked to COVID-19 has been found in several athletes in the Big Ten and other Power 5 conferences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com


And before folks speculate that maybe these athletes already had this or it was not related . . . many (most?) D1 athletes undergo heart checks.  I have a genetic condition so my kids are checked annually but we included my kid's cardiac report as part of the medical docs we provided to her program (just as we do for US Soccer).  So a baseline "clear" is likely for these students now found to have myocarditis.

I will take this moment to recommend baseline cardiac testing for any of your kids who participate in high level athletics. Why? Because 1 in 500 (not common but not super rare either) people have a condition called Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM), the condition that killed Hank Gathers. Symptoms can present at any time in a person's life and often appear in the late teens/early 20s (I was diagnosed at age 45 but, in retrospect, symptomatic in my late 30s). If any of you have a family history of sudden cardiac death (sometimes referred to as a "widow maker" heart attack), that is all the more reason for your kid to be checked. There are also other heart conditions that can appear if a baseline check is done. You want to know about HCM b/c the type of heart attack that is common with HCM is often fatal - in fact, I'd probably say "usually" fatal unless an AED is in close proximity and a shock is administered (protip: check EVERY athletic facility - whether gym, field, school - to identify the location of the closest AED and if you are feeling generous, consider purchasing a portable one for your kid's team or club (they run about $1,200)). And this type of heart attack can be a result of a high heart rate associated with high intensity exercise. Some countries require cardiac testing of all youth athletes (Italy is one) and if you ever read about a fit athlete who has a sudden heart attack, HCM is often the reason.

The condition does not appear out of no where so periodic checks are helpful - an EKG and echocardiogram can show the telltale sigs of emerging symptoms. For example, my kids get tested in December. If they are "clear", their next test the following December will not show a heart that looks like mine (or mine b/4 open heart surgery in 2014) but, rather, a heart that is starting to show stiffening or thickening.

PSA over.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Keepermom2 said:


> Sorry if this article was already posted.
> 
> "Myocarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle, has been found in at least five Big Ten Conference athletes and among several other athletes in other conferences, according to two sources with knowledge of athletes' medical care.  The condition is usually caused by a viral infection, including those that cause the common cold, H1N1 influenza or mononucleosis. Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic."
> 
> "Dr. Matthew Martinez, director of sports cardiology for Atlantic Health System in New Jersey, said he has received calls from physicians from at least a dozen Power 5 schools who have identified more than a dozen athletes with some post-COVID-19 myocardial injury. He said about half of them had symptoms."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heart issue linked to virus drives Power 5 concern
> 
> 
> A rare heart condition that could be linked to COVID-19 has been found in several athletes in the Big Ten and other Power 5 conferences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com


Myocarditis is nothing new.  It can be caused by any virus.  There are studies all over the web about it's effects on athletes and on those in the military.  The thing that is unique now is that better medical care is occuring that is catching prior to people dying (which is great) and medical issues associated with Covid get a much greater attention by the media.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

College Soccer 360

@CS360updates
·
2h

Update: looks like 162 of 327 DI w-soccer teams still intend to play (49.54 %, below the needed 50% for NCAA Championship tournament). Cancellations: BigTen–Pac12–MAC–MtWest–CAA–Ivy–Northeast–SWAC–AEast–A10–BigWest–MAAC–Patriot–Summit–Big South; also teams ODU+EWU #CollegeSoccer

And there it is.  No NCAA tournament


----------



## dk_b

Simisoccerfan said:


> College Soccer 360
> @CS360updates
> ·
> 2h
> 
> Update: looks like 162 of 327 DI w-soccer teams still intend to play (49.54 %, below the needed 50% for NCAA Championship tournament). Cancellations: BigTen–Pac12–MAC–MtWest–CAA–Ivy–Northeast–SWAC–AEast–A10–BigWest–MAAC–Patriot–Summit–Big South; also teams ODU+EWU #CollegeSoccer
> 
> And there it is.  No NCAA tournament


Will the others drop as well or continue (in an attempt to have a "normal" fall)?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dk_b said:


> Will the others drop as well or continue (in an attempt to have a "normal" fall)?


I think it will depend on what D1 says eventually.  Will D1 hold spring championships?  If so can a team play in the fall still play in the spring?  Will they flip the script and say you can play up to 6 games in the fall (like what spring is normally) and still play league and NCAA in the spring?  If you conference plays in the fall does that burn a year of elgibilty?  Until D1 meets and provides guidance we are left guessing.


----------



## Mystery Train

My kid's conference was one of the first to cancel their fall season.  Although we were all very upset then, I'm glad that we had that time to get over the loss and mentally prepare for what things would be like as she does online classes while being on campus to do training and virtual practices.  I feel so bad for all those kids who are having the rug yanked out now, just as school is starting.  I have a friend whose daughter just arrived on campus and was expecting this to be her year.   She'd sat on the bench a good portion of 3 years, grinding and waiting for her shot.  Finally got scholarship money for her senior year.  Had already taken care of most of her academics, so it was going to be all about soccer.  Boom.  Now it's gone.  If she wants to play her last year, she'll have to extend her schooling and it's going to cost.  What a nightmare.


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> College Soccer 360
> @CS360updates
> ·
> 2h
> 
> Update: looks like 162 of 327 DI w-soccer teams still intend to play (49.54 %, below the needed 50% for NCAA Championship tournament). Cancellations: BigTen–Pac12–MAC–MtWest–CAA–Ivy–Northeast–SWAC–AEast–A10–BigWest–MAAC–Patriot–Summit–Big South; also teams ODU+EWU #CollegeSoccer
> 
> And there it is.  No NCAA tournament


 Thats why everyone should just move to Spring.


----------



## dk_b

gotothebushes said:


> Thats why everyone should just move to Spring.


I think that's what will happen soon enough - with the HOPE that there will be a spring season.


----------



## gotothebushes

Mystery Train said:


> My kid's conference was one of the first to cancel their fall season.  Although we were all very upset then, I'm glad that we had that time to get over the loss and mentally prepare for what things would be like as she does online classes while being on campus to do training and virtual practices.  I feel so bad for all those kids who are having the rug yanked out now, just as school is starting.  I have a friend whose daughter just arrived on campus and was expecting this to be her year.   She'd sat on the bench a good portion of 3 years, grinding and waiting for her shot.  Finally got scholarship money for her senior year.  Had already taken care of most of her academics, so it was going to be all about soccer.  Boom.  Now it's gone.  If she wants to play her last year, she'll have to extend her schooling and it's going to cost.  What a nightmare.


 Wow! Thanks for sharing. Pretty tough situation to be in. Will she think about transferring elsewhere?


----------



## gotothebushes

Simisoccerfan said:


> I think it will depend on what D1 says eventually.  Will D1 hold spring championships?  If so can a team play in the fall still play in the spring?  Will they flip the script and say you can play up to 6 games in the fall (like what spring is normally) and still play league and NCAA in the spring?  If you conference plays in the fall does that burn a year of elgibilty?  Until D1 meets and provides guidance we are left guessing.


 This makes total sense.


----------



## gotothebushes

dk_b said:


> I think that's what will happen soon enough - with the HOPE that there will be a spring season.


 At this point they have no other choice and the ACC, Big 12 and SEC should all just play in the Spring. This 6 games for the fall is pointless.


----------



## Mystery Train

gotothebushes said:


> Wow! Thanks for sharing. Pretty tough situation to be in. Will she think about transferring elsewhere?


Right now they just don't know.  It's all in such upheaval that it's hard for her to make any decisions beyond the immediate.  It's possible that they'll extend her offer another year, but then she'd be staying there (out of state) for another year, and it's too late for her to just declare this a gap year and sit out (rent & leases and classes already paid for).  Maybe she'll get some games in the spring and then that's it.  Soccer career over.  Terrible, because she'd worked so hard to get to be a starter at D1 level and possibly compete for a championship and it all seems to be evaporating right when she could almost touch it.  As bad as it is for my kid to lose her freshman year,  at least she can hope for future seasons.  It's way worse for those at the end who aren't going to get to finish.  Same for all those seniors playing D1 football who won't be going pro (the vast majority).  This was going to be the culmination of their football careers.  That said, I can't blame the schools for pulling the plug.  If the decision was on my head, I can't see how I'd come to any other conclusion.


----------



## younothat

My freshmen doesn't want to use up a year of eligibility time with the Pac-12 postponing to spring & /wo any post season he's very  close to opting out of competition this academic year and get a additional year of eligibility as a result.


----------



## EOTL

More have died in the US in the last two days than any two day period since May. At the end of the day, CA is likely to break records for the most cases and deaths in a two day period. Today a sheriff in FL banned staff from wearing masks on the same day the county broke its record for deaths. 

There will be no spring sports, or at least not one that finishes the season, without a vaccine. Americans are too dumb. It’s truly remarkable how dumb they are.


----------



## Keepermom2

Simisoccerfan said:


> Myocarditis is nothing new.  It can be caused by any virus.  There are studies all over the web about it's effects on athletes and on those in the military.  The thing that is unique now is that better medical care is occuring that is catching prior to people dying (which is great) and medical issues associated with Covid get a much greater attention by the media.


Yeah...the recent small studies are showing that it is more prevalent with COVID than the Flu.  Once again, we need larger studies but as I understand it, several of the universities don't want to chance it because of the latest studies.  

"Overall, 78% of recovered COVID-19 patients showed signs of some type of heart abnormality. The most common heart problem was inflammation of the heart muscle, or myocarditis, experienced by 60% of patients. Some patients also showed signs of inflammation of the pericardium, the tissue that surrounds the heart. Myocarditis occasionally occurs with influenza, adenovirus and other respiratory viruses, though it's much less common, for instance showing up in less than 10% of cases of flu, according to a 2012 study in the journal Influenza Research and Treatment. "

"Our findings demonstrate that participants with a relative paucity of preexisting cardiovascular [conditions] and with mostly home-based recovery had frequent cardiac inflammatory involvement" after COVID-19, the authors said."









						COVID-19 linked to heart damage in healthy people, small study suggests
					

Three quarters of recovered COVID-19 patients had signs of lingering heart damage months after their initial infection.




					www.livescience.com


----------



## gotothebushes

Mystery Train said:


> Right now they just don't know.  It's all in such upheaval that it's hard for her to make any decisions beyond the immediate.  It's possible that they'll extend her offer another year, but then she'd be staying there (out of state) for another year, and it's too late for her to just declare this a gap year and sit out (rent & leases and classes already paid for).  Maybe she'll get some games in the spring and then that's it.  Soccer career over.  Terrible, because she'd worked so hard to get to be a starter at D1 level and possibly compete for a championship and it all seems to be evaporating right when she could almost touch it.  As bad as it is for my kid to lose her freshman year,  at least she can hope for future seasons.  It's way worse for those at the end who aren't going to get to finish.  Same for all those seniors playing D1 football who won't be going pro (the vast majority).  This was going to be the culmination of their football careers.  That said, I can't blame the schools for pulling the plug.  If the decision was on my head, I can't see how I'd come to any other conclusion.


 Well said and thanks for sharing. There's how many layers to think about thats unspoken.


----------



## gotothebushes

younothat said:


> My freshmen doesn't want to use up a year of eligibility time with the Pac-12 postponing to spring & /wo any post season he's very  close to opting out of competition this academic year and get a additional year of eligibility as a result.


@younothat might be a good move. Glad to see you dd is really weighing her options.


----------



## Eagle33

younothat said:


> My freshmen doesn't want to use up a year of eligibility time with the Pac-12 postponing to spring & /wo any post season he's very  close to opting out of competition this academic year and get a additional year of eligibility as a result.


Question will be, if a player opts out of school this year, will he/she be able to keep the spot once everything returns to normal next year?
I would assume that training will be happening, even though the season is canceled.


----------



## vegasguy

Simisoccerfan said:


> College Soccer 360
> @CS360updates
> ·
> 2h
> 
> Update: looks like 162 of 327 DI w-soccer teams still intend to play (49.54 %, below the needed 50% for NCAA Championship tournament). Cancellations: BigTen–Pac12–MAC–MtWest–CAA–Ivy–Northeast–SWAC–AEast–A10–BigWest–MAAC–Patriot–Summit–Big South; also teams ODU+EWU #CollegeSoccer
> 
> And there it is.  No NCAA tournament


will they make an exception being that this is an exceptional year?


----------



## warrior49

It would be a sham championship if the NCAA did hold one. A championship has everyone, not just a few teams who decided to play. I believe the NCAA is toast after this, and their insistence on punting responsibility to the conferences will be their undoing.


----------



## espola

warrior49 said:


> It would be a sham championship if the NCAA did hold one. A championship has everyone, not just a few teams who decided to play. I believe the NCAA is toast after this, and their insistence on punting responsibility to the conferences will be their undoing.


NCAA regulations require that at least half the teams registered to play in a given level (DI, DII, DIII) must agree to participate in the championship process in order for NCAA to sponsor a tournament.  With the multiple conference announcements this week to suspend all college sports, they are already well below 50%.  

Interesting thread covering that topic toward its end starts here --









						Corona Virus Cancellations
					

Anyone hear any rumors or statements about spring season cancellations for the Corona Virus ?




					www.bigsoccer.com


----------



## vegasguy

WCC just called it.


----------



## gotothebushes

Recruiting dead period extended for NCAA Division I programs
					

The NCAA extended its recruiting dead period.




					www.soccerwire.com


----------



## dk_b

Like many of you, I have been thinking about this so much and how the situation impacts the student athletes at every level - from the kid in her or his last college year to the incoming freshman to the high school kids who should be feeling one step closer to playing at the next level.  @Simisoccerfan and I were going to share a game together in Hawaii; I would have been texting with @SpeedK1llz about his child and mine; I would have been watching the Pac-12 GKs with keen interest as there may have been 3 starters from the same youth club; and I would have been watching my kid experience something totally new, really challenging and absolutely special.  What a difference 8 months makes (when the US U18s were getting ready to play China's U18s at the end of Jan, the families were alerted to the steps the Federation, Customs and the state of FL were taking to make sure the athletes were safe to enter the country so, yeah, we've known for a while).

It's such a terrible bummer for all considered. And, yet, what else could they have done? I mean, I get that there are differences in risk tolerance and one can advocate a position based on the available stats and that it's all sort of abstract until close friend or family member gets sick. But even if the statistical risk is low, the potential impact is enormous to a single life, to a team, to an athletic program, to a campus and broader community. I support the Pac's decision because, to me, there is still far too much that is unknown and we have failed to put ourselves in the best position to protect ourselves against that huge unknown. Will college football be the trigger, like the SEC's decision was for the Mississippi state flag? Will that result in a more cohesive national plan (even if through a series of state-by-state commitments)?

Good luck, all. I wish good physical and mental health to all of you and your families.


----------



## espola

With WCC out that leaves only these conferences who have not yet announced their fall plans -

American Athletic - 6 men's teams
ACC - 12
Atlantic Sun - 7
Conference USA - 7
Horizon - 11
Missouri Valley - 5
Southern - 7
Sun Belt - 5


----------



## dk_b

espola said:


> With WCC out that leaves only these conferences who have not yet announced their fall plans -
> 
> American Athletic - 6 men's teams
> ACC - 12
> Atlantic Sun - 7
> Conference USA - 7
> Horizon - 11
> Missouri Valley - 5
> Southern - 7
> Sun Belt - 5


That's including the Big XII and the SEC saying they are moving forward? You've been tracking . . . how long until the ACC drops? And do you expect the Big XII and SEC to take all the way to the first to occur of (i) an outbreak or (ii) a completed season or do you think they will, ultimately, pull the plug?


----------



## gotothebushes

dk_b said:


> That's including the Big XII and the SEC saying they are moving forward? You've been tracking . . . how long until the ACC drops? And do you expect the Big XII and SEC to take all the way to the first to occur of (i) an outbreak or (ii) a completed season or do you think they will, ultimately, pull the plug?


 @dk_b I think they will all pull the plug. Why risk it for only 6 games when you can have double the about of games in the Spring. Not too mention falls coming and we might have another spike in #'s.


----------



## espola

dk_b said:


> That's including the Big XII and the SEC saying they are moving forward? You've been tracking . . . how long until the ACC drops? And do you expect the Big XII and SEC to take all the way to the first to occur of (i) an outbreak or (ii) a completed season or do you think they will, ultimately, pull the plug?


No men's soccer at the conference level.  There may be some schools whose teams play men's soccer in other conferences.


----------



## Mystery Train

dk_b said:


> Like many of you, I have been thinking about this so much and how the situation impacts the student athletes at every level - from the kid in her or his last college year to the incoming freshman to the high school kids who should be feeling one step closer to playing at the next level.  @Simisoccerfan and I were going to share a game together in Hawaii; I would have been texting with @SpeedK1llz about his child and mine; I would have been watching the Pac-12 GKs with keen interest as there may have been 3 starters from the same youth club; and I would have been watching my kid experience something totally new, really challenging and absolutely special.  What a difference 8 months makes (when the US U18s were getting ready to play China's U18s at the end of Jan, the families were alerted to the steps the Federation, Customs and the state of FL were taking to make sure the athletes were safe to enter the country so, yeah, we've known for a while).
> 
> It's such a terrible bummer for all considered. And, yet, what else could they have done? I mean, I get that there are differences in risk tolerance and one can advocate a position based on the available stats and that it's all sort of abstract until close friend or family member gets sick. But even if the statistical risk is low, the potential impact is enormous to a single life, to a team, to an athletic program, to a campus and broader community. I support the Pac's decision because, to me, there is still far too much that is unknown and we have failed to put ourselves in the best position to protect ourselves against that huge unknown. Will college football be the trigger, like the SEC's decision was for the Mississippi state flag? Will that result in a more cohesive national plan (even if through a series of state-by-state commitments)?
> 
> Good luck, all. I wish good physical and mental health to all of you and your families.


100%.  Well said.


----------



## younothat

Eagle33 said:


> Question will be, if a player opts out of school this year, will he/she be able to keep the spot once everything returns to normal next year?
> I would assume that training will be happening, even though the season is canceled.


Was arranging his dorm room when the PAC-12 cancel came down, enrolled so not opting out of college and they have been working out so  just strongly leaning toward opting out of a competition for this season not college, redshirt path but maybe a little different

He trying to get clarification on the topic along the lines what that above article mentions.  His scholarship won't be effected for this year at least according to his coach and advisers.

"The D-I Council has recommended for the NCAA’s Board of Governors to provide fall sport student-athletes who compete and then opt out of future participation or have a season cut short due to COVID-19: (1) an extension of their five-year period of eligibility; and (2) an additional season of competition if they participate in 50% or less of the maximum number of competitions allowed in each sport by Division I rules.

Members will further discuss additional Board of Governors requirements, including a prohibition on canceling, reducing or not renewing athletics aid for student-athletes who opt out of participation due to COVID-19 and required medical coverage for COVID-19 if a student contracts the virus through sports participation.”

Young man might be a little biggest concern was how small the dorm & the space: the bed in there is for "middle schoolers" he texted me the other day, used to a nice big comfy queen size higher end ortho bed, and all the other goodies he has a home. Adjustments son I told him, get used to it or bargain with the roomie to fit a bigger bed, not sure there room in there for queen plus another one, desks, and closets space of if you can bring in your own stuff?



gotothebushes said:


> @younothat might be a good move. Glad to see you dd is really weighing her options.


@gotothebushes thanks for the mention our older daughter is a medical student 3rd year doing well but going to be tough to get in all the clinical hours with how things are going. 

Barely got in enough hours last go around after they were cut off for a few months.  She decided to focus on college, her education, and civic mentoring she does with kids rather than play soccer in college.  She thought long and hard about that decision and has been happy with it so I'm proud of her for making a difference and that decision.  The work shes done with the kids this summer virtually has been very rewarding for her.


----------



## gotothebushes

younothat said:


> Was arranging his dorm room when the PAC-12 cancel came down, enrolled so not opting out of college and they have been working out so  just strongly leaning toward opting out of a competition for this season not college, redshirt path but maybe a little different
> 
> He trying to get clarification on the topic along the lines what that above article mentions.  His scholarship won't be effected for this year at least according to his coach and advisers.
> 
> "The D-I Council has recommended for the NCAA’s Board of Governors to provide fall sport student-athletes who compete and then opt out of future participation or have a season cut short due to COVID-19: (1) an extension of their five-year period of eligibility; and (2) an additional season of competition if they participate in 50% or less of the maximum number of competitions allowed in each sport by Division I rules.
> 
> Members will further discuss additional Board of Governors requirements, including a prohibition on canceling, reducing or not renewing athletics aid for student-athletes who opt out of participation due to COVID-19 and required medical coverage for COVID-19 if a student contracts the virus through sports participation.”
> 
> Young man might be a little biggest concern was how small the dorm & the space: the bed in there is for "middle schoolers" he texted me the other day, used to a nice big comfy queen size higher end ortho bed, and all the other goodies he has a home. Adjustments son I told him, get used to it or bargain with the roomie to fit a bigger bed, not sure there room in there for queen plus another one, desks, and closets space of if you can bring in your own stuff?
> 
> 
> 
> @gotothebushes thanks for the mention our older daughter is a medical student 3rd year doing well but going to be tough to get in all the clinical hours with how things are going.
> 
> Barely got in enough hours last go around after they were cut off for a few months.  She decided to focus on college, her education, and civic mentoring she does with kids rather than play soccer in college.  She thought long and hard about that decision and has been happy with it so I'm proud of her for making a difference and that decision.  The work shes done with the kids this summer virtually has been very rewarding for her.


 Stories I love hearing!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Okay NCAA has shutdown all fall championships.  The good thing is that Mark spoke strongly about trying to have Fall sport championships in the Spring instead of taking the D2 and D3 route.   If this doesn't happen and Spring is just a few games or no games everyone will have another year of elgibility.  If it does happen and your kid sits out their Scholarship will be protected for this year.  The key is most scholarships renew year by year and if your kid sits out what are the chances the coach makes changes to the scholarship offer for next year?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

If a coach takes away money it will be the year after next.  Next year is safe. So if your dd is a junior all is good.


----------



## espola

eastbaysoccer said:


> If a coach takes away money it will be the year after next.  Next year is safe. So if your dd is a junior all is good.


That's optimistic.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

State College, PA - Penn State Athletics Planning for Furloughs  -
					

Penn State Athletics is preparing for furloughs across the department, Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics Sandy Barbour told department employees during a Zoom call on Wednesday afternoon.




					www.statecollege.com
				




The aftermath that will hit ALL athletic departments soon.  WCC doesn’t have football but lost money from the cancellation of the Basketball and continue
To lose money in housing and tuition.


----------



## MakeAPlay

eastbaysoccer said:


> State College, PA - Penn State Athletics Planning for Furloughs  -
> 
> 
> Penn State Athletics is preparing for furloughs across the department, Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics Sandy Barbour told department employees during a Zoom call on Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statecollege.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The aftermath that will hit ALL athletic departments soon.  WCC doesn’t have football but lost money from the cancellation of the Basketball and continue
> To lose money in housing and tuition.


This sucks.


----------



## HoopsCoach

dk_b said:


> That's including the Big XII and the SEC saying they are moving forward? You've been tracking . . . how long until the ACC drops? And do you expect the Big XII and SEC to take all the way to the first to occur of (i) an outbreak or (ii) a completed season or do you think they will, ultimately, pull the plug?


My daughter who plays at USD told us that the this year (as far as eligibility is concerned) will not impact players.  Seems like it's a gimme year for teams that want to move forward and play but kids will still get that year back.  That's great for some kids and could possibly get a year of grad school paid for!


----------



## msoccerm

The title of this thread is - Div 1 College Soccer Under Threat. Universities are losing a lot of money and if things continue the way they are - I think that it has to be under threat. Are the Golden Years over?  Universities will have to drop sports/cut athletic budgets and tuition costs will rise. I wonder if the better US and International players will skip the US college system and go straight to Europe or the NWSL and the quality of college soccer drops dramatically. The US economy will take years to recover - will parents stop wasting money on travel sports and kids start focusing on academics?


----------



## Mystery Train

msoccerm said:


> Are the Golden Years over?


Yes.



msoccerm said:


> I wonder if the better US and International players will skip the US college system and go straight to Europe or the NWSL and the quality of college soccer drops dramatically.


Yes.



msoccerm said:


> he US economy will take years to recover - will parents stop wasting money on travel sports and kids start focusing on academics?


NEVER!!!!  LOL... but they should.


----------



## msoccerm

@Mystery Train  Universities are struggling at the moment to stay afloat. How will there be scholarship offers like before - especially for non-revenue generating sports like soccer?  

Maybe it's time for the NWSL to expand or have a second tier/development league for the players that want to continue playing (and make some money) when they graduate from high school.


----------



## MSK357

msoccerm said:


> @Mystery Train  Universities are struggling at the moment to stay afloat. How will there be scholarship offers like before - especially for non-revenue generating sports like soccer?
> 
> Maybe it's time for the NWSL to expand or have a second tier/development league for the players that want to continue playing (and make some money) when they graduate from high school.


umm...isnt NWSL struggling as well? how are they going to support a 2nd tier/development league when they can barely pay their players now?


----------



## dad4

msoccerm said:


> @Mystery Train  Universities are struggling at the moment to stay afloat. How will there be scholarship offers like before - especially for non-revenue generating sports like soccer?
> 
> Maybe it's time for the NWSL to expand or have a second tier/development league for the players that want to continue playing (and make some money) when they graduate from high school.


A second tier league exists, called WPSL.  www.wpslsoccer.com 

It’s a place to play, but not really a place to make money.  NWSL can barely pay their top tier players.  

But, tickets are cheap and the games are good.


----------



## notintheface

dad4 said:


> A second tier league exists, called WPSL.  www.wpslsoccer.com
> 
> It’s a place to play, but not really a place to make money.  NWSL can barely pay their top tier players.
> 
> But, tickets are cheap and the games are good.


Can confirm this -- you get a lot of college students coming back to play during the summer.


----------



## dad4

notintheface said:


> Can confirm this -- you get a lot of college students coming back to play during the summer.


That's my impression.  Place to keep in shape over summer break.


----------



## msoccerm

WPSL is only a summer league.

If NWSL is struggling to pay players in a country where the women's team just won the World Cup and have been ranked #1 for a long time there is a problem. But if your player is only playing soccer for a college scholarship then you probably don't care.


----------



## Lifeisnotfare

msoccerm said:


> WPSL is only a summer league.
> 
> If NWSL is struggling to pay players in a country where the women's team just won the World Cup and have been ranked #1 for a long time there is a problem. But if your player is only playing soccer for a college scholarship then you probably don't care.


Title 9 made girls soccer a big time business for a few and the girls dont get paid.  They get admitted to a U with a few scholarship bucks and that's it. No pro at all really, yet its the females who did all the work.  We need a pro league like Spain does with their goats.  99% of us were taught to go to college and if you dont, you fail in the game of life.  That is BS right there and brain washing.


----------



## Desert Hound

msoccerm said:


> athletic budgets and tuition costs will rise.


If they raise tuition, they only make things worse. College costs have far outpaced inflation now for some time. 



msoccerm said:


> will parents stop wasting money on travel sports and kids start focusing on academics


If universities stopped making their campuses look like country clubs (fancy dorms, eateries, etc.). Much of the cost increase in college relates to their building projects to make the campuses look cooler vs others...which in the end have very little to do with academics...but have raised the cost of going to college. 

It is funny...many are not doing in person classes...but at the same time still have students in dorms.Why? Well they can charge for online tuition and so whether they are in class or not matters little. But if the students are not in the dorms..that is a big hit financially. 

This is what we are seeing in our AZ universities right now in terms of what they have students doing.


----------



## Mystery Train

msoccerm said:


> @Mystery Train  Universities are struggling at the moment to stay afloat. How will there be scholarship offers like before - especially for non-revenue generating sports like soccer?
> 
> Maybe it's time for the NWSL to expand or have a second tier/development league for the players that want to continue playing (and make some money) when they graduate from high school.


I think there will be smaller rosters in some programs where they try to keep the same scholarship levels, thus having to spread the $ over a smaller number of players.  There will be other schools that eliminate sports (similar to what Stanford did on a different scale) to save money, there will be coaching and resource cuts.  Smaller, less funded programs will have to do with fewer new supplies, re-using equipment, etc.  So yeah, the "golden days" are done.  However, Title 9 will still require scholarship opportunites be there for women's soccer,  so it won't be zero.  I'd also like to point out the the scholarship "opportunities" in WoSo as it is have been greatly exaggerated or overestimated in our youth soccer culture.


----------



## MakeAPlay

msoccerm said:


> @Mystery Train  Universities are struggling at the moment to stay afloat. How will there be scholarship offers like before - especially for non-revenue generating sports like soccer?
> 
> Maybe it's time for the NWSL to expand or have a second tier/development league for the players that want to continue playing (and make some money) when they graduate from high school.


Europe pays better than the NWSL in most cases believe it or not.  Lot's of players are going over on loans or are asking to be waived so that they can play in Europe.  The NWSL doesn't have a plan for the spring yet.  They are focused on playing friendlies in September and October and many of the players have gotten wise to this and are going overseas.  They only talk about the WNT players that go but believe me their are dozens of players headed to Europe.


----------



## El Clasico

Mystery Train said:


> I think there will be smaller rosters in some programs where they try to keep the same scholarship levels, thus having to spread the $ over a smaller number of players.  There will be other schools that eliminate sports (similar to what Stanford did on a different scale) to save money, there will be coaching and resource cuts.  Smaller, less funded programs will have to do with fewer new supplies, re-using equipment, etc.  So yeah, the "golden days" are done.  However, Title 9 will still require scholarship opportunites be there for women's soccer,  so it won't be zero.  I'd also like to point out the the scholarship "opportunities" in WoSo as it is have been greatly exaggerated or overestimated in our youth soccer culture.


I don't think that roster size will be affected since the far end of the bench doesn't see any meaningful money anyway. Not nearly as many players are getting money as people seem to think.


----------



## SoccerLocker

NC State Women can't field a team for fall

Interesting... Combination of injuries and foreign players having issues returning to school forces NC State to withdraw from ACC Fall schedule.


----------



## gotothebushes

SoccerLocker said:


> NC State Women can't field a team for fall
> 
> Interesting... Combination of injuries and foreign players having issues returning to school forces NC State to withdraw from ACC Fall schedule.


 Sounds like NC State should start recruiting some home grown athletes then. Looks like they need some 2021 and 2020's asap!


----------



## Mystery Train

El Clasico said:


> I don't think that roster size will be affected since the far end of the bench doesn't see any meaningful money anyway. Not nearly as many players are getting money as people seem to think.


Heard directly from my kid's coach that rosters will be smaller going forward.  It has to do not as much specifically with the scholarship money, but with resources in general, number of players travelling, getting athletic dept. support.  There's so much that these schools spend on athletes that isn't scholarship money, from academic counseling, tutors, nutritionists, trainers, medical treatment, sometimes special housing and meals, etc.  Also many coaches take the approach of spreading out their scholarship money in smaller amounts across a larger group, especially for underclassmen, as it's hard to justify a large dollop of money to a freshman when your program isn't super-funded.  This is true even of a really good recruit, given the likelihood of them making a big impact over established upperclassmen on the field is pretty slim.  This may be more true for smaller programs, and not so much the top power 5 who are getting big minutes from superstar freshmen, but I do think the number of opportunities across all levels of women's soccer and all non-revenue generating sports will be fewer in the coming years due to economic impact.


----------



## El Clasico

Mystery Train said:


> Heard directly from my kid's coach that rosters will be smaller going forward.  It has to do not as much specifically with the scholarship money, but with resources in general, number of players travelling, getting athletic dept. support.  There's so much that these schools spend on athletes that isn't scholarship money, from academic counseling, tutors, nutritionists, trainers, medical treatment, sometimes special housing and meals, etc.  Also many coaches take the approach of spreading out their scholarship money in smaller amounts across a larger group, especially for underclassmen, as it's hard to justify a large dollop of money to a freshman when your program isn't super-funded.  This is true even of a really good recruit, given the likelihood of them making a big impact over established upperclassmen on the field is pretty slim.  This may be more true for smaller programs, and not so much the top power 5 who are getting big minutes from superstar freshmen, but I do think the number of opportunities across all levels of women's soccer and all non-revenue generating sports will be fewer in the coming years due to economic impact.


My response was specific to scholarship money and I hadn't considered some of the other factors you mentioned. You make some good points there.


----------



## chiefs

Simisoccerfan said:


> I agree that there are many questions that need to be answered with main two being will there be a Spring season and does it count as a year of eligibility?  If not, how many seniors are coming back?  Are those seniors getting money (often programs backload offers that can increase in the later years), will the school extend the money into the final year?  Since no 2021 grads have signed offers yet (just verbals) things can change for them too.   I know that in normal circumstances colleges don't want to back out of verbals but who knows now since a verbal is not binding.  I also would assume that Juniors, Sophomores and Freshmen all will get another year of elgilibilty if they want.   It is very reasonable to expect colleges not to extend as many offers in the next few years.  Instead they may chose to either not spend the full 14 scholarships or increase the amount the current players that are making an impact get.


In my opinion, it will be a case by case for each school and their budgets designated for the Soccer program..I think 2022 And beyond  maybe more effected than 2021. 2021 the coaches and schools will honor their verbals mostly, while cutting back in future recruits.


----------



## Soccerhelper

I have an idea.  Each college program has a travel team ((scholarship player)) and a practice team.  22 on the travel roster and 18 practice players.  40 girls for each program.  Home games  all the girls can suit up.  Some PT might even be able to crack the travel team because of injury or some girls quit.   All the PT parents can "buy" the spot.  This is the way to raise funds for the soccer program.


----------



## Copa9

eastbaysoccer said:


> State College, PA - Penn State Athletics Planning for Furloughs  -
> 
> 
> Penn State Athletics is preparing for furloughs across the department, Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics Sandy Barbour told department employees during a Zoom call on Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statecollege.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The aftermath that will hit ALL athletic departments soon.  WCC doesn’t have football but lost money from the cancellation of the Basketball and continue
> To lose money in housing and tuition.


Most housing contracts were already signed when lock down came, one reason so many kids are at school doing on line leaning instead of from home. $$$


----------



## Copa9

msoccerm said:


> The title of this thread is - Div 1 College Soccer Under Threat. Universities are losing a lot of money and if things continue the way they are - I think that it has to be under threat. Are the Golden Years over?  Universities will have to drop sports/cut athletic budgets and tuition costs will rise. I wonder if the better US and International players will skip the US college system and go straight to Europe or the NWSL and the quality of college soccer drops dramatically. The US economy will take years to recover - will parents stop wasting money on travel sports and kids start focusing on academics?


We have always focused on academics! This school year will be tough for that.  If you are a senior you have three solid years of grades.  Sophomores and Juniors will really have to step it up.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Memo says NCAA will furlough Indianapolis-based employees
					

Indianapolis-based governing body of collegiate sports faces a hit in the wake of the cancellation of the 2020 men's basketball tournament.



					www.indystar.com


----------



## Simisoccerfan

DD’s school now fully online through September due to many Covid cases after two weeks of school.  Practices are also on hold.  School Newspaper blames the school for a poor plan and absolves student responsibility by saying if the school can’t have a plan that works how can you expect students to behave responsibly. This sums up with what is wrong with the world. People need to be responsible for their actions.  If students actually wore masks, did not go to large parties, and actually did their daily health checks I bet their plan would have worked.  It’s always the few that don’t give a damn that screw things up for others and then blame them too.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

with colleges losing millions in the loss or housing and revenue from football it will be hard to believe there will be any money for 2021 and on recruits.  I can see current juniors graduating and the scholaregion unit attached to them Vanishing.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Copa9 said:


> *We have always focused on academics!* This school year will be tough for that.  If you are a senior you have three solid years of grades.  Sophomores and Juniors will really have to step it up.


Bingo!!!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

eastbaysoccer said:


> with colleges losing millions in the loss or housing and revenue from football it will be hard to believe there will be any money for 2021 and on recruits.  I can see current juniors graduating and the scholaregion unit attached to them Vanishing.


There are minimums in sports by gender and scholarships per gender that schools need to meet to remain D1 but those minimums are substantially lower than the maximums allowed and what most schools currently fund.


----------



## MakeAPlay

Simisoccerfan said:


> DD’s school now fully online through September due to many Covid cases after two weeks of school.  Practices are also on hold.  School Newspaper blames the school for a poor plan and absolves student responsibility by saying if the school can’t have a plan that works how can you expect students to behave responsibly. This sums up with what is wrong with the world. People need to be responsible for their actions.  If students actually wore masks, did not go to large parties, and actually did their daily health checks I bet their plan would have worked.  It’s always the few that don’t give a damn that screw things up for others and then blame them too.


The human brain isn't fully mature until age 25.   Anyone who believed that young adults would act responsibly has never been a young adult....

Continued good fortune to you and your player.


----------



## Patandpats

More news out of Penn State and for anyone who thinks Covid isn't a big deal since their young athlete won't die



			https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-football/article245448050.html


----------



## Copa9

Patandpats said:


> More news out of Penn State and for anyone who thinks Covid isn't a big deal since their young athlete won't die
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-football/article245448050.html


Everyone who is on this forum needs to read this article, it should be mandatory! If only.  A good reminder in all the hyperbole.


----------



## Patandpats

Copa9 said:


> Everyone who is on this forum needs to read this article, it should be mandatory! If only.  A good reminder in all the hyperbole.


The good news is that most cases of myocarditis are mild.  Also, it's recommended that if you have myocarditis you refrain from competitive sports for 3-6 months to reduce your risk of sudden cardiac death.


----------



## SoccerLocker

Cross posted from BAD NEWS THREAD.  Not sure we can draw assumptions that this is mild myocarditis yet.

New Insights on How COVID-19 Causes Heart Damage

“*The sarcomere disruptions we discovered would make it impossible for the heart muscle cells to beat properly,*” explains Conklin, who is also a professor of medicine, cellular and molecular pharmacology, and ophthalmology at UCSF.

The scientists also noted that the nuclear DNA seemed to be missing from many of the heart cells. Without DNA, cells can no longer perform any normal functions.

“I*t’s the cell equivalent of being brain dead,*” adds Conklin. “*Even after scouring scientific literature and conferring with colleagues, we cannot find these abnormal cell features in any other cardiac disease model. We believe they are unique to SARS-CoV-2 and could explain the prolonged heart damage seen in many COVID-19 patients*.”


----------



## Kicker4Life

Cross posted from another thread since I wanted to better understand Myocarditis:

I’m glad this was brought up, it is important to understand Myocarditis (from Myocarditis Foundation):

The most common cause of Myocarditis is a Viral Infection. acute Myocarditis is a well known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamics dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catechilolamimes and mechanical circulatory support. 

Many viruses are associated with myocarditis, including viruses that cause the common cold (of which are 5 existing Covid strains that predate Covid 19), Covid 19, hepatitis B and C, parvovirus and herpes.


----------



## chiefs

WH


Kicker4Life said:


> Cross posted from another thread since I wanted to better understand Myocarditis:
> 
> I’m glad this was brought up, it is important to understand Myocarditis (from Myocarditis Foundation):
> 
> The most common cause of Myocarditis is a Viral Infection. acute Myocarditis is a well known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamics dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catechilolamimes and mechanical circulatory support.
> 
> Many viruses are associated with myocarditis, including viruses that cause the common cold (of which are 5 existing Covid strains that predate Covid 19), Covid 19, hepatitis B and C, parvovirus and herpes.


Interesting the timing of this article:

Article released after the positive meeting between the Big 10 Commissioner and President of the US.;
And, where's the study from the other college conferences that are playing?  Of the 30% of athletes who have this, what is the result?


----------



## dk_b

chiefs said:


> WH
> 
> 
> Interesting the timing of this article:
> 
> Article released after the positive meeting between the Big 10 Commissioner and President of the US.;
> And, where's the study from the other college conferences that are playing?  Of the 30% of athletes who have this, what is the result?


What do you mean by "what is the the result?" beyond the result that the athletes now have a heart condition that, under any circumstance, would have put them on the shelf for a time?

And are you asking about the "study from the other college conferences" that shows that it's safe for them to play? Asked another way (which may be what you are asking), does such a study exist?

I was listening to the radio today and there was a report that 8 Nebraska football players are suing the Big 10.  I am really surprised that they could find counsel to take on that fight.  I have not read the complaint but if they are asking the court to require that the Big 10 plays, I can't imagine that there would be that many winning legal arguments given the uncertainty of the science regarding the level of risk to the athletes.


----------



## SoccerLocker

Kicker4Life said:


> Cross posted from another thread since I wanted to better understand Myocarditis:
> 
> I’m glad this was brought up, it is important to understand Myocarditis (from Myocarditis Foundation):
> 
> The most common cause of Myocarditis is a Viral Infection. acute Myocarditis is a well known complication of influenza infection. The clinical expression varies from asymptomatic to fulminant myocarditis, which can result in severe hemodynamics dysfunction, necessitating high-dose catechilolamimes and mechanical circulatory support.
> 
> Many viruses are associated with myocarditis, including viruses that cause the common cold (of which are 5 existing Covid strains that predate Covid 19), Covid 19, hepatitis B and C, parvovirus and herpes.


The article I posted never used the word Myocarditis (i.e. heart inflammation).  It describes the heart infection (what causes Myocarditis) as unprecedented.

"Even after scouring scientific literature and conferring with colleagues, we cannot find these abnormal cell features in any other cardiac disease model. We believe they are unique to SARS-CoV-2 and could explain the prolonged heart damage seen in many COVID-19 patients."

The Myocarditis is the warning sign, and we have no idea whether or not it will go away quickly (like the seasonal flu), or will be more prolonged.

In fact, the Myocarditis Foundation also posted many articles saying while Myocarditis is seen in 20 - 30% of recovered patients it's too soon to draw any conclusions about recovery:

Myocarditis Foundation Articles

Implications for long-term COVID recovery

"There are no data on how acute treatment of COVID-19 may affect the convalescent phase or long-term cardiac recovery and function. Myocarditis from other viral pathogens can evolve into overt or subclinical myocardial dysfunction, and sudden death has been described in the convalescent phase of viral myocarditis. This raises concerns for patients recovering from COVID-19."


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Open Letter to the William & Mary Community and to All Who Support William & Mary Athletics - William & Mary Athletics
					

President Katherine Rowe  Provost Peggy Agouris  Director of Athletics Samantha K. Huge     Universities across the country are engaged in difficult assessments




					tribeathletics.com
				




Dropping 7 sports (soccer is not one of them)


----------



## Kicker4Life

Patandpats said:


> More news out of Penn State and for anyone who thinks Covid isn't a big deal since their young athlete won't die
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-football/article245448050.html


More news out of Penn State....to quote another poster, “the message has been consistently inconsistent”.









						State College, PA - Penn State Clarifies Comments From Top Doctor, Says No Myocarditis Among COVID-19 Positives -
					

Penn State clarified comments made by Director of Athletic Medicine, Dr. Wayne Sebastianelli earlier in the week regarding COVID-19 side-effects among Big Ten athletes that have contracted the disease. The Centre Daily Times first reported the story Thursday morning.




					www.statecollege.com


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> More news out of Penn State....to quote another poster, “the message has been consistently inconsistent”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State College, PA - Penn State Clarifies Comments From Top Doctor, Says No Myocarditis Among COVID-19 Positives -
> 
> 
> Penn State clarified comments made by Director of Athletic Medicine, Dr. Wayne Sebastianelli earlier in the week regarding COVID-19 side-effects among Big Ten athletes that have contracted the disease. The Centre Daily Times first reported the story Thursday morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statecollege.com


While 15% is better than 30-35%, it still is not good.


----------



## SoccerLocker

outside! said:


> While 15% is better than 30-35%, it still is not good.


Agreed. 

We don't know enough about this virus to say ANYTHING for certain, but if there is a chance of permanent heart damage I am concerned (more for my kids myself - TBH).  If you are looking for consistency ... best of luck. 

There's a reason other countries are taking this more seriously.  Maybe they know more about the virus than we do, or maybe they have been hit by so many viruses that they know an abundance of caution is the best play until more is known.


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> While 15% is better than 30-35%, it still is not good.


I wonder if the myocarditis mentioned had been an issue with the professional athletes as well.  You see people like Russell Westbrook on the court less than a few weeks after testing positive. 

Concerning yes, far it is a lot more common than we know.  Your kid could have had it during some point in their childhood already and you never knew it.


----------



## Copa9

chiefs said:


> WH
> 
> 
> Interesting the timing of this article:
> 
> Article released after the positive meeting between the Big 10 Commissioner and President of the US.;
> And, where's the study from the other college conferences that are playing?  Of the 30% of athletes who have this, what is the result?


Do the other conferences really want to know?  $$$$  Are they doing the expensive testing required, blood tests, MRI'a that are necessary to determine who has it or not.  If they found out their athletes had myocarditis would they cancel their season?  $$$$


----------



## Kicker4Life

Copa9 said:


> Do the other conferences really want to know?  $$$$  Are they doing the expensive testing required, blood tests, MRI'a that are necessary to determine who has it or not.  If they found out their athletes had myocarditis would they cancel their season?  $$$$


Do they do this for Influenza A or B?  How about Hepatitis?  All of which are also causes of Myocarditis......


----------



## MakeAPlay

Kicker4Life said:


> I wonder if the myocarditis mentioned had been an issue with the professional athletes as well.  You see people like Russell Westbrook on the court less than a few weeks after testing positive.
> 
> Concerning yes, far it is a lot more common than we know.  Your kid could have had it during some point in their childhood already and you never knew it.


Westbrook makes over $20 million a year and is making a calculated risk.  He already got COVID.  He is going to want to have that money for any potential medical issues in the future.


----------



## Soccerhelper

MakeAPlay said:


> Westbrook makes over $20 million a year and is making a calculated risk.  He already got COVID.  He is going to want to have that money for any potential medical issues in the future.


100% true Maps.  









						No Cash, No Heart. Transplant Centers Require Proof Of Payment.
					

The case of a Michigan woman told to fundraise $10,000 for a heart transplant sparked viral outrage, but experts say “wallet biopsies” are common.




					khn.org


----------



## Desert Hound

Kicker4Life said:


> Do they do this for Influenza A or B?  How about Hepatitis?  All of which are also causes of Myocarditis......


Bingo. 

Do they test after the above? I don't believe they ever have. 

Prior to covid were colleges and sports teams regularly testing for myocarditis?


----------



## dad4

Copa9 said:


> Do the other conferences really want to know?  $$$$  Are they doing the expensive testing required, blood tests, MRI'a that are necessary to determine who has it or not.  If they found out their athletes had myocarditis would they cancel their season?  $$$$


Maybe, if they think the penalty from a wrongful death lawsuit is worse than the penalty of a lost season.


----------



## dk_b

Desert Hound said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Do they test after the above? I don't believe they ever have.
> 
> Prior to covid were colleges and sports teams regularly testing for myocarditis?


college sports - and national teams - routinely require cardiac testing. As I wrote a lot either upthread or on a different one (it was several weeks ago), some countries require cardiac testing for all youth athletes (even non-elite).

if your child is playing elite athletics she or he should be cardiac checked at least once, if not periodically. Certain conditions (like HCM), while not frequent, are not rare and can resort in sudden cardiac death. This is independent of covid.

if a college sports Doc is reporting this, it is likely he is quite aware of the generalized risk (which is documented as being far lower rates but still not insignificant  and should be watched if you have an athlete who has recoveredfell from the flu)


----------



## Desert Hound

dk_b said:


> college sports - and national teams - routinely require cardiac testing. As I wrote a lot either upthread or on a different one (it was several weeks ago), some countries require cardiac testing for all youth athletes (even non-elite).
> 
> if your child is playing elite athletics she or he should be cardiac checked at least once, if not periodically. Certain conditions (like HCM), while not frequent, are not rare and can resort in sudden cardiac death. This is independent of covid.
> 
> if a college sports Doc is reporting this, it is likely he is quite aware of the generalized risk (which is documented as being far lower rates but still not insignificant  and should be watched if you have an athlete who has recoveredfell from the flu)


Thanks for the response.


----------



## pooka

Desert Hound said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Do they test after the above? I don't believe they ever have.
> 
> Prior to covid were colleges and sports teams regularly testing for myocarditis?


I think that college cardiac testing was what saved Shaquille Oneal's son, right? He had never been fully tested, and when he got to UCLA to play basketball they found a major cardiac issue. So maybe before they did not test after the flu, they do seem to test everyone on the way in...


----------



## dk_b

pooka said:


> I think that college cardiac testing was what saved Shaquille Oneal's son, right? He had never been fully tested, and when he got to UCLA to play basketball they found a major cardiac issue. So maybe before they did not test after the flu, they do seem to test everyone on the way in...


most college athletes are wearing heart monitors as well. They keep data on cardiac functioning. That, with AEDs in arenas and fields, means the likelihood of sudden cardiac death is much lower now. And if the athlete shows signs of structural damage - whether temporary or (as in my case) permanent - they are not seeing the field. No matter how much an adoring fan base wants to see TDs for old State U!  Boola boola!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

__





						2022 Women's Soccer Schedule - Duke University
					

The official 2022 Women's Soccer schedule for the Duke University




					goduke.com
				




11 games for Duke.  Let’s see how this works.  If they all get sick and have to cancel then I suspect there won’t be a spring season for ALL


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Utah athletics announces furloughs, layoffs to combat budget shortfall caused by pandemic
					

Every employee in the department to be impacted.




					www.deseret.com


----------



## eastbaysoccer

kickingandscreaming said:


> Utah athletics announces furloughs, layoffs to combat budget shortfall caused by pandemic
> 
> 
> Every employee in the department to be impacted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.deseret.com


Sad but inevitable.  Others will follow soon.


----------



## Desert Hound

pooka said:


> I think that college cardiac testing was what saved Shaquille Oneal's son, right? He had never been fully tested, and when he got to UCLA to play basketball they found a major cardiac issue. So maybe before they did not test after the flu, they do seem to test everyone on the way in...


Yeah that is what I was asking...ie do they. So good stuff.


----------



## chiefs

dk_b said:


> What do you mean by "what is the the result?" beyond the result that the athletes now have a heart condition that, under any circumstance, would have put them on the shelf for a time?
> 
> And are you asking about the "study from the other college conferences" that shows that it's safe for them to play? Asked another way (which may be what you are asking), does such a study exist?
> 
> I was listening to the radio today and there was a report that 8 Nebraska football players are suing the Big 10.  I am really surprised that they could find counsel to take on that fight.  I have not read the complaint but if they are asking the court to require that the Big 10 plays, I can't imagine that there would be that many winning legal arguments given the uncertainty of the science regarding the level of risk to the athletes.


Big 10 is now backtracking quickly on this false narrative study.  Folks get educated


----------



## gkrent

chiefs said:


> Folks get educated


This is kind of a sh*tty thing to say in today's media environment.  Not everyone has 3 hours a day to sort through all the BS.  People are doing their best.


----------



## outside!

chiefs said:


> Big 10 is now backtracking quickly on this false narrative study.  Folks get educated


Link?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Proposed schedule for NCAA soccer season | College Soccer
					

The NCAA Oversight Committee and college soccer coaches have put forth new recommended dates for the college soccer season.




					www.topdrawersoccer.com


----------



## dk_b

Simisoccerfan said:


> Proposed schedule for NCAA soccer season | College Soccer
> 
> 
> The NCAA Oversight Committee and college soccer coaches have put forth new recommended dates for the college soccer season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.topdrawersoccer.com


Let's hope that stays in place - I renew something I have said upthread and in another thread (or two): I think the NLI date will change back to the early Feb date since the impact on each program and the NCAA overall will be clearer.  Just seems to hard to have NLIs signed in mid-November since there may still be uncertainty.  (I think the mid-Nov date has only been in place for the classes of 2019 and 2020 so moving to Feb would not be a huge change)


----------



## eastbaysoccer

dk_b said:


> Let's hope that stays in place - I renew something I have said upthread and in another thread (or two): I think the NLI date will change back to the early Feb date since the impact on each program and the NCAA overall will be clearer.  Just seems to hard to have NLIs signed in mid-November since there may still be uncertainty.  (I think the mid-Nov date has only been in place for the classes of 2019 and 2020 so moving to Feb would not be a huge change)



So what happens to the teams playing now?  At least we have an idea now.


----------



## UOP

California State University to keep classes online next term
					

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — California State University, the country’s largest four-year...




					www.sfgate.com
				





On boy.


----------



## Soccer43

there were many articles and posting about the error.  Here is one of them:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2907517-psu-doctor-30-35-of-big-ten-athletes-with-covid-19-developed-myocarditis


"This is kind of a sh*tty thing to say in today's media environment. Not everyone has 3 hours a day to sort through all the BS. People are doing their best."

If you don't have the time to do the research then don't post false statistics that generate hysteria, just say nothing


----------



## gotothebushes

So is it official women's soccer dead period has been moved to Oct 31st?


----------



## msoccerm

gotothebushes said:


> So is it official women's soccer dead period has been moved to Oct 31st?


@gotothebushes - why are you so obsessed with the soccer dead period?


----------



## gotothebushes

msoccerm said:


> @gotothebushes - why are you so obsessed with the soccer dead period?


@msoccerm - Not odesseed at all just curious if an extension was put in place.


----------



## Soccerfan2

gotothebushes said:


> So is it official women's soccer dead period has been moved to Oct 31st?


I haven’t seen anything about a dead period extension beyond 9/30 yet. 
It looks to me like the D1 council will meet on 9/18. I would think they’ll decide that then.


----------



## youthsportsugghhh

Soccerfan2 said:


> I haven’t seen anything about a dead period extension beyond 9/30 yet.
> It looks to me like the D1 council will meet on 9/18. I would think they’ll decide that then.


I agree and think coaches/schools might be thinking that the dead period won't be extended as they have started sending/reaching out about camps starting again in the fall


----------



## Desert Hound

This would seem important as it relates to sports/soccer.


_Fauci says the arrival of a vaccine won’t mean life will return to normal, perhaps for more than a year.

“If you’re talking about getting back to a degree of normality which resembles where we were prior to COVID, *it’s going to be well into 2021, maybe even towards the end of 2021,*” said the director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases on Friday.

But Fauci warned that widespread distribution and getting “the majority, or more, of the population vaccinated and protected” won’t happen until perhaps the end 2021,









						Fauci Spills The Beans: A Vaccine Won’t End COVID-19 Restrictions
					

Anthony Fauci is always the harbinger of more suffering to be inflicted by state and local governments. Count on governors parroting the new expectation.




					thefederalist.com
				



_


----------



## dk_b

Desert Hound said:


> This would seem important as it relates to sports/soccer.
> 
> 
> _Fauci says the arrival of a vaccine won’t mean life will return to normal, perhaps for more than a year.
> 
> “If you’re talking about getting back to a degree of normality which resembles where we were prior to COVID, *it’s going to be well into 2021, maybe even towards the end of 2021,*” said the director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases on Friday.
> 
> But Fauci warned that widespread distribution and getting “the majority, or more, of the population vaccinated and protected” won’t happen until perhaps the end 2021,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Spills The Beans: A Vaccine Won’t End COVID-19 Restrictions
> 
> 
> Anthony Fauci is always the harbinger of more suffering to be inflicted by state and local governments. Count on governors parroting the new expectation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefederalist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


to me, the key to a return to something more “normal” prior to wide deployment of a safe vaccine is ubiquity of rapid tests and continued adherence to social distancing/mask recommendations (or increasing compliance in communities where that doesn’t happen).  The technology exists for the former but not sure the will exists for the latter.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

As soon as a vaccine is widely available it's back to playing and all businesses will open.  Any other measures taken will be up to the state, county, etc.  

By spring there will be multiple vaccines on the market and numerous treatments.


----------



## Desert Hound

eastbaysoccer said:


> As soon as a vaccine is widely available it's back to playing and all businesses will open.  Any other measures taken will be up to the state, county, etc.
> 
> By spring there will be multiple vaccines on the market and numerous treatments.


Unlikely. Fauci said maybe end of 2021.

Here is another report saying MAYBE Sept. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/coronavirus-vaccine-may-not-be-ready-for-the-public-until-next-winter/ar-BB190SNs


----------



## Kicker4Life

eastbaysoccer said:


> As soon as a vaccine is widely available it's back to playing and all businesses will open.  Any other measures taken will be up to the state, county, etc.
> 
> By spring there will be multiple vaccines on the market and numerous treatments.


Don’t worry so much about a vaccine...stay focused on perfecting the multiple treatments currently in use around the world. We’ve learned a lot about the virus in the last 9 months, how it presents, how it affects the body, why certain pre-existing conditions are more susceptible and most importantly how to treat it more effectively and efficiently.


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> Don’t worry so much about a vaccine...stay focused on perfecting the multiple treatments currently in use around the world. We’ve learned a lot about the virus in the last 9 months, how it presents, how it affects the body, why certain pre-existing conditions are more susceptible and most importantly how to treat it more effectively and efficiently.


It seems that we have not learned how to deploy enough rapid testing capability to make anything other than a vaccine our only hope of a return to normal.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Desert Hound said:


> Unlikely. Fauci said maybe end of 2021.
> 
> Here is another report saying MAYBE Sept. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/coronavirus-vaccine-may-not-be-ready-for-the-public-until-next-winter/ar-BB190SNs


I have little faith in projections beyond a few weeks. Also, states are rather independent in what they choose to do. I don't expect that to change either. I could see CA, NM or HI waiting that long, but not TX, AZ or FL.


----------



## Soccerhelper

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have little faith in projections beyond a few weeks. Also, states are rather independent in what they choose to do. I don't expect that to change either. I could see CA, NM or HI waiting that long, but not TX, AZ or FL.


That could hurt with local recruiting, ya?  Come to Florida and play now instead of all the what ifs and all the _______________.  If CA was like TX, things would be very different now in our country.


----------



## outside!

Soccerhelper said:


> If CA was like TX, things would be very different now in our country.


There would certainly be more dead people from COVID. Texas has 50 COVID deaths per capita and ranks 26th for population density. California has 37 deaths per capita and ranks 11th for population density.


----------



## espola

outside! said:


> There would certainly be more dead people from COVID. Texas has 50 COVID deaths per capita and ranks 26th for population density. California has 37 deaths per capita and ranks 11th for population density.


I hate to be all mathematician on you, but "50 deaths per capita" would mean everyone is dead 50 times.


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> There would certainly be more dead people from COVID. Texas has 50 COVID deaths per capita and ranks 26th for population density. California has 37 deaths per capita and ranks 11th for population density.


Texas also is big, if you know what I mean.  I just had a veggie lunch with my good friend yesterday.  He lost 75 lbs this year and looks healthier then when he was in HS.  Wake up call for sure this virus is doing on all of us and I too lost 15 lbs.  I'm trying to crack 199 and get away from 200+ lbs and never go back.


----------



## notintheface

kickingandscreaming said:


> I have little faith in projections beyond a few weeks. Also, states are rather independent in what they choose to do. I don't expect that to change either. I could see CA, NM or HI waiting that long, but not TX, AZ or FL.


U of A is under a 2-week lockdown and stopped all athletics. They've been back to school for 3 weeks.


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> There would certainly be more dead people from COVID. Texas has 50 COVID deaths per capita and ranks 26th for population density. California has 37 deaths per capita and ranks 11th for population density.


That is incorrect according to Worldometer:

Texas       - 508 deaths/million (ranks 19th)
California - 370 deaths/million (ranks 25th)

That was as of yesterday.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

notintheface said:


> U of A is under a 2-week lockdown and stopped all athletics. They've been back to school for 3 weeks.


If people start socializing in groups that haven't been mixed, case counts will rise. There's no way around it. I hope they aren't sending the sick ones back home. Fortunately, it's a pretty low risk for that age group. Just stay away from the older professors.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> I hate to be all mathematician on you, but "50 deaths per capita" would mean everyone is dead 50 times.


well cats have 9 lives....


----------



## Desert Hound

kickingandscreaming said:


> Fortunately, it's a pretty low risk for that age group. Just stay away from the older professors.


Almost non existent risk for that group. As one of the doctors quoted in one of the articles stated...it is extremely unlikely anyone has to go to the hospital. Further UoA is still allowing students to go to class (not sure how that qualifies as a quarantine).


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> That is incorrect according to Worldometer:
> 
> Texas       - 508 deaths/million (ranks 19th)
> California - 370 deaths/million (ranks 25th)
> 
> That was as of yesterday.


As DH pointed out, I forgot to say the per capita deaths were per 100,000 people. Kicker4Life's stats are per 1,000,000 people. 508/1,000,000 = 50/100,000, 370/1,000,000 = 37/100,00. So our death rate data for the two states is the same. My stats are from:









						U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
					

As of December 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 439 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.




					www.statista.com
				




Soccerhelper, the size of the state does not matter, the population density does when we are discussing the spread of airborne diseases. Texas has a lower population density (the people are farther apart from each other) but a higher percentage of those people are dying. That is pretty strong evidence that California is handling this pandemic better than Texas is.


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> As DH pointed out, I forgot to say the per capita deaths were per 100,000 people. Kicker4Life's stats are per 1,000,000 people. 508/1,000,000 = 50/100,000, 370/1,000,000 = 37/100,00. So our death rate data for the two states is the same. My stats are from:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of December 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 439 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soccerhelper, the size of the state does not matter, the population density does when we are discussing the spread of airborne diseases. Texas has a lower population density (the people are farther apart from each other) but a higher percentage of those people are dying. That is pretty strong evidence that California is handling this pandemic better than Texas is.


I disagree but go ahead and believe your beliefs.  Let's bring this stuff up after Nov 3rd and see where the evidence is at.  I'm happy to see Big Ten playing ball.  ACC is balling too as is SEC and Big 12.  Let's all hold judgement until the facts come out.  I will follow and obey all the rules.


----------



## outside!

Soccerhelper said:


> I disagree but go ahead and believe your beliefs.  Let's bring this stuff up after Nov 3rd and see where the evidence is at.  I'm happy to see Big Ten playing ball.  ACC is balling too as is SEC and Big 12.  Let's all hold judgement until the facts come out.  I will follow and obey all the rules.


The facts are out. Are you saying that the evidence showing that Texas has more deaths per capita than California despite having a lower population density means that Texas is doing a better job at preventing infections and deaths due to COVID? BTW, thank you for following the rules. They do help minimize the spread of airborne diseases.


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> *The facts are out.* Are you saying that the evidence showing that Texas has more deaths per capita than California despite having a lower population density means that Texas is doing a better job at preventing infections and deaths due to COVID? BTW, thank you for following the rules. They do help minimize the spread of airborne diseases.


The facts tell me that no stud athlete has died from this virus.  Zippo, zero like 0....


----------



## outside!

Soccerhelper said:


> The facts tell me that no stud athlete has died from this virus.  Zippo, zero like 0....


Cody Lister died in April. Von Miller is struggling to recover. With reports of COVID causing lung and heart damage and much still unknown, I am not willing to push for other people to play college sports.


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> Cody Lister died in April. Von Miller is struggling to recover. With reports of COVID causing lung and heart damage and much still unknown, I am not willing to push for other people to play college sports.


I'm talking under 18 and those highest level players looking to play past HS School.  We have lost so many already because we burned many out of the love of the game.  The girls who are left between 15 and 18 in socal havent played a game since Feb.  I do believe their is a strong battle for some reason to keep kids from playing soccer until next years.  So basically the socal teens who love soccer are a shot out of luck?  I see NO reason why healthy kid with great hearts and lungs and strong who are strong athletic type teens cant play soccer.  Zero!!!!


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> Cody Lister died in April. Von Miller is struggling to recover. With reports of COVID causing lung and heart damage and much still unknown, I am not willing to push for other people to play college sports.


What?  Von Miller was full steam ahead until his ankle injury in practice....









						Broncos place linebacker Von Miller on injured reserve following ankle surgery
					

Should Miller heal from the ankle injury he suffered in practice on Sept. 8, he’d be eligible to be re-added to the roster, but coach Vic Fangio said last week that “it’s too earl…




					www.denverpost.com


----------



## Simisoccerfan

DI Council approves moving fall championships to the spring
					

On Wednesday, the Division I Council approved a package of proposals to move the 2020 fall championships to the spring of 2021. The recommendations now go to the




					www.ncaa.org
				




We have the framework for a Spring Season!  Just need the Board of Governors final approval.  And wear your damn masks and stop socializing so this plan can happen!


----------



## dk_b

Simisoccerfan said:


> DI Council approves moving fall championships to the spring
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, the Division I Council approved a package of proposals to move the 2020 fall championships to the spring of 2021. The recommendations now go to the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncaa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have the framework for a Spring Season!  Just need the Board of Governors final approval.  And wear your damn masks and stop socializing so this plan can happen!


still no word on adjusting the NLI date but ...









						DI Council extends recruiting dead period
					

The Division I Council extended the recruiting dead period through Jan. 1. The Council has been reviewing the dead period on a regular basis since April. A dead




					www.ncaa.org


----------



## outside!

Soccerhelper said:


> I'm talking under 18 and those highest level players looking to play past HS School.


This is a thread about D1 soccer. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion, or is every thread about you?


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> This is a thread about *D1 soccer*. Do you have *anything meaningful* to contribute to this discussion, or *is every thread about you?*


This is about my goat trying to play soccer in California Outside so she can get into a good college some day?  No soccer is setting her and others behind while all the other girls in other states can ball.  That sucks!!!  This is not about me.  Sorry, did I misspeak?  I will let you explain D1 soccer since your the expert bro.  BTW, my dd had two phone calls already.  It's working itself out, Outside and it's all good.  Is this not the place to share?  You hurt my feelings but I wont take it personal.


----------



## Copa9

Soccerhelper said:


> The facts tell me that no stud athlete has died from this virus.  Zippo, zero like 0....





Soccerhelper said:


> The facts tell me that no stud athlete has died from this virus.  Zippo, zero like 0....


So, the truth is out, your concern is out!  It is all about the "stud" athlete to you!


----------



## outside!

Soccerhelper said:


> This is about my goat trying to play soccer in California Outside so she can get into a good college some day?  No soccer is setting her and others behind while all the other girls in other states can ball.  That sucks!!!  This is not about me.  Sorry, did I misspeak?  I will let you explain D1 soccer since your the expert bro.  BTW, my dd had two phone calls already.  It's working itself out, Outside and it's all good.  Is this not the place to share?  You hurt my feelings but I wont take it personal.


First you said not one athlete has died. When I pointed out that at least one had, you said you were only talking about youth players. I pointed out this is a thread about D1 soccer and wondered why every thread needs to be about your situation. This is a thread about D1 soccer. If you have something to contribute to this discussion, please do. I wish the best to your player and am excited to hear she is receiving interest from coaches.

The bottom line is how many D1 athlete deaths due to COVID are acceptable? What is the acceptable level for  D1 athletes to get permanent lung or heart damage? We do not have a reliable testing system, so we really do not have enough information to make an informed decision. Based on the haphazard way testing has been implemented, I do not have strong hopes that a vaccine will salvage the 20/21 college sports season.


----------



## notintheface

outside! said:


> If you have something to contribute to this discussion, please do. I wish the best to your player and am excited to hear she is receiving interest from coaches.


I will bet any amount of money that the response to this includes a story about a time when EJ spent time at the beach, or when EJ's "buddy" was re-plumbing a house, or maybe we'll get a bonus photo of EJ's kid when they were 9, because no that isn't creepy at all.


----------



## Dubs

Simisoccerfan said:


> DI Council approves moving fall championships to the spring
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, the Division I Council approved a package of proposals to move the 2020 fall championships to the spring of 2021. The recommendations now go to the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncaa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have the framework for a Spring Season!  Just need the Board of Governors final approval.  And wear your damn masks and stop socializing so this plan can happen!


Praise Jesus!


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> First you said not one athlete has died. When I pointed out that at least one had, you said you were only talking about youth players. I pointed out this is a thread about D1 soccer and wondered why every thread needs to be about your situation. This is a thread about D1 soccer. If you have something to contribute to this discussion, please do. I wish the best to your player and am excited to hear she is receiving interest from coaches.
> 
> The bottom line is how many D1 athlete deaths due to COVID are acceptable? What is the acceptable level for  D1 athletes to get permanent lung or heart damage? We do not have a reliable testing system, so we really do not have enough information to make an informed decision. Based on the haphazard way testing has been implemented, I do not have strong hopes that a vaccine will salvage the 20/21 college sports season.


Sorry, but you were wrong about Von Miller and there is no proof confirming long term heart or lung damage  I don’t understand the focus on a vaccine when it’s proven this is a treatable virus.
We have piles of information on the virus and how it affects the body, including studies showing how many deaths can be attributed to misdiagnosis this mistreatment (in these cases it wasn’t negligence, just situational and lack of knowledge).


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> First you said not one athlete has died. When I pointed out that at least one had, you said you were only talking about youth players. I pointed out this is a thread about D1 soccer and wondered why every thread needs to be about your situation. This is a thread about D1 soccer. If you have something to contribute to this discussion, please do. I wish the best to your player and am excited to hear she is receiving interest from coaches.
> 
> *The bottom line is how many D1 athlete deaths due to COVID are acceptable? *What is the acceptable level for  D1 athletes to get permanent lung or heart damage? We do not have a reliable testing system, so we really do not have enough information to make an informed decision. Based on the haphazard way testing has been implemented, I do not have strong hopes that a vaccine will salvage the 20/21 college sports season.


Maybe I missed something and I mean this with all due respect Outside.  Let's just drop this altogether.  My time is over and its time for me to bail this joint.  If I talk too much, so sorry and I mean that.  My pal Scott from Stanford is getting hammered now.  Tell you what everyone.  I'm no creeper dad, that's for sure and if my dd pics offended some of you, please forgive me.  It was not meant to creep you out at all.  October is coming around soon and from all my sources, it's time to lay low because of all the jealousy and politics.  I will hand over all D1 conversations to Outside and I will STFU once and for all.  So many new experts on here now any way so I will just sit back and lurk under a new name and learn from all you experts on youth soccer and the college.  The Helper is retiring once and for all.   I have to bow out at at the end of the month or even sooner.  No more creepy pics of my goat balling when she was 9 and 10. I'm so sorry for that.  Keep hiding behind avatars....lol!!! I'm so sorry for stepping on all your toes.  I will go away and never back.  I did my part and now it's time..............Game on!!!!  Get ready to ball!!!!!


----------



## Soccerhelper

My feelings have been really hurt by Outside.  I also get these weird PMs and other weird things happening that makes me know it's time to go. Here we go again,  Remember forum friends, I love you all and wish you all nothing but the best.  My heart was in the right place and I was just here to be a helping hand.  I see how powerful this is and i was born for this.  Today, I announce my retirement from forum posting forever.  No more, ever. I decided to cold turkey and just quit all together and I decided today is my last day.  I will pick a new avatar and will never post from it.  I will only lurk and lurk some more.........Play ball!!!!!


----------



## Simisoccerfan

outside! said:


> This is a thread about D1 soccer. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion, or is every thread about you?


You are in the wrong thread.  This not a Covid thread nor the place to discuss your concerns about it.


----------



## socalkdg

outside! said:


> That is pretty strong evidence that California is handling this pandemic better than Texas is.


A lot more factors than just covid deaths need to be taken into account on which state handled the pandemic best.   If that was all we cared about New York and New Jersey should change over all their leadership right now because they were 3X as bad as either Texas or California.   

You would have to compare if additional people died due to starvation, suicide, or murder in a state.   Less active people don't live as long as active people, so that is a loss of years off of a life if kids were stuck at home, gave up a sport, gain weight, up to 20 years per person.  More educated people live longer than non educated, so a loss of education has a long term effect on years living.   Loss in the economy affects many of the services the State offers, this will result in additional deaths.  Less people may have went to the doctor depending on the status of how open a stare was, thus greater chance of dying from Heart disease, Cancer, stroke.  I'm pretty sure I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg with all the ramifications each states decisions are.

I'd just like a State to apply the rules equally to everyone.  That is all I ask.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Back to soccer, I heard my dd’s team was able to start practicing again today after a few week break do to a spike in cases.


----------



## dk_b

Simisoccerfan said:


> Back to soccer, I heard my dd’s team was able to start practicing again today after a few week break do to a spike in cases.


My kid's team just ended a solid month of practices - they would be split into 2 groups so no contact and no scrimmaging but still some great work put in - after a month of "voluntary" workouts in smaller groups.  No outbreaks w/in the athletic department (so far as we know).  They will be breaking for about 2 weeks and will require negative tests to (i) move into the dorms and (ii) resume practices (separate tests).  Between the congregant living protocols and the athletic department testing, I think she will be tested quite frequently and, some Jan/Feb, I'd expect them to be tested at least every game day if not every time they enter the facility (like the way the NFL has been doing it) (of course, that assumes widespread availability of rapid tests).


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Sorry, but you were wrong about Von Miller and there is no proof confirming long term heart or lung damage  I don’t understand the focus on a vaccine when it’s proven this is a treatable virus.
> We have piles of information on the virus and how it affects the body, including studies showing how many deaths can be attributed to misdiagnosis this mistreatment (in these cases it wasn’t negligence, just situational and lack of knowledge).


What did you mean by "proven to be a treatable virus"?


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> Sorry, but you were wrong about Von Miller and there is no proof confirming long term heart or lung damage  I don’t understand the focus on a vaccine when it’s proven this is a treatable virus.
> We have piles of information on the virus and how it affects the body, including studies showing how many deaths can be attributed to misdiagnosis this mistreatment (in these cases it wasn’t negligence, just situational and lack of knowledge).











						Coronavirus-Infected Athletes Could Face Long-Lasting Side Effects
					

A New York Times report found that lung issues and blood clots could pop up for those infected with COVID-19




					www.insidehook.com
				



Von Miller had COVID. His recovery was not quick and painless. I am not a doctor, but the reports of inflamed heart muscles in asymptomatic COVID positive D1 athletes are troubling. The reports of COVID patients with scarring in their lungs as shown on chest x-rays is also troubling. There is a lot we don't know, but I am in no hurry to get my D1 player on the field. At the bare minimum we need fast, accurate testing that is readily available to all D1 athletes (and the general population). The biggest reason D1 athletics are under thread is due to the COVID pandemic, which makes COVID issues that pertain directly to D1 athletes relevant to this discussion. I noticed nobody was willing to speculate on how many deaths due to COVID are acceptable for D1 athletes. My answer is zero. This pandemic won't last forever, unlike death.

In other D1 soccer news, my player's team at a state school is having voluntary off-campus practices with social distancing. Attendance is small since many students are not in town. They are basically trying to stay in shape and maintain some sanity.


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> Coronavirus-Infected Athletes Could Face Long-Lasting Side Effects
> 
> 
> A New York Times report found that lung issues and blood clots could pop up for those infected with COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insidehook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Miller had COVID. His recovery was not quick and painless. I am not a doctor, but the reports of inflamed heart muscles in asymptomatic COVID positive D1 athletes are troubling. The reports of COVID patients with scarring in their lungs as shown on chest x-rays is also troubling. There is a lot we don't know, but I am in no hurry to get my D1 player on the field. At the bare minimum we need fast, accurate testing that is readily available to all D1 athletes (and the general population). The biggest reason D1 athletics are under thread is due to the COVID pandemic, which makes COVID issues that pertain directly to D1 athletes relevant to this discussion. I noticed nobody was willing to speculate on how many deaths due to COVID are acceptable for D1 athletes. My answer is zero. This pandemic won't last forever, unlike death.
> 
> In other D1 soccer news, my player's team at a state school is having voluntary off-campus practices with social distancing. Attendance is small since many students are not in town. They are basically trying to stay in shape and maintain some sanity.


Dig further....almost every virus causes Heart inflammation. Even Herpes and Hepatitis....the use of the word “COULD” can be used for anything that has a statistical probability (ie getting struck by lightening).  If Von Miller was concerned, why was he saying he was feeling great and looking forward to what he felt could be his best year yet?

That is a rhetorical question that I don’t expect or want an answer to. Gonna stay on topic from here on out. 
To each his own.  My best you you and your family.


----------



## outside!

socalkdg said:


> A lot more factors than just covid deaths need to be taken into account on which state handled the pandemic best.   If that was all we cared about New York and New Jersey should change over all their leadership right now because they were 3X as bad as either Texas or California.


NY and NJ also have the highest population density of all the states. Airborne diseases spread more easily in areas with higher population densities (like college campuses). It is the combination of COVID deaths per capita and population density that provide a meanignful comparison between states.


----------



## Soccerhelper

outside! said:


> Coronavirus-Infected Athletes Could Face Long-Lasting Side Effects
> 
> 
> A New York Times report found that lung issues and blood clots could pop up for those infected with COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insidehook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Miller had COVID. His recovery was not quick and painless. I am not a doctor, but the reports of inflamed heart muscles in asymptomatic COVID positive D1 athletes are troubling. The reports of COVID patients with scarring in their lungs as shown on chest x-rays is also troubling. There is a lot we don't know, but I am in no hurry to get my D1 player on the field. At the bare minimum we need fast, accurate testing that is readily available to all D1 athletes (and the general population). The biggest reason D1 athletics are under thread is due to the COVID pandemic, which makes COVID issues that pertain directly to D1 athletes relevant to this discussion. I noticed nobody was willing to speculate on how many deaths due to COVID are acceptable for D1 athletes. My answer is zero. This pandemic won't last forever, unlike death.
> 
> *In other D1 soccer news, my player's team at a state school is having voluntary off-campus practices with social distancing. Attendance is small since many students are not in town. They are basically trying to stay in shape and maintain some sanity.*


I hear some schools are playing in other states.  California is tough for D1.  Commuter schools have it worse.


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> Dig further....almost every virus causes Heart inflammation. Even Herpes and Hepatitis....the use of the word “COULD” can be used for anything that has a statistical probability (ie getting struck by lightening).  If Von Miller was concerned, why was he saying he was feeling great and looking forward to what he felt could be his best year yet?
> 
> That is a rhetorical question that I don’t expect or want an answer to. Gonna stay on topic from here on out.
> To each his own.  My best you you and your family.


I am happy Von Miller recovered, many have not. I know that other viruses cause heart inflammation. What concerns me is the lack of testing. How many college athletes may have an asymptomatic case of COVID and never know? Some unknown portion of those athletes will have heart inflammation and never know. Every college should have testing available for all athletes. Right now, that is not the case. Any student athlete that tests positive for COVID should have an examine capable of detecting heart inflammation.


----------



## dk_b

outside! said:


> I am happy Von Miller recovered, many have not. I know that other viruses cause heart inflammation. What concerns me is the lack of testing. How many college athletes may have an asymptomatic case of COVID and never know? Some unknown portion of those athletes will have heart inflammation and never know. Every college should have testing available for all athletes. Right now, that is not the case. Any student athlete that tests positive for COVID should have an examine capable of detecting heart inflammation.


And part of it being a NOVEL virus is that we can use our knowledge of other viruses as a guide but we don't know with certainty what the impact will be on our bodies.  The rate of myocarditis seems higher than the common flu and other viruses - does that mean the risk of permanent damage is greater?  We don't know b/c there just has not been enough time and enough of a sample.  We will have a greater sample size soon enough and then we can watch if the cardiovascular issues resolve w/younger adults or persist and we can develop policies accordingly.  And as our young people return to "circulation", especially on college campuses, we will have a much better sense of rates of transmission, rates of hospitalization and rates of death among that younger population.  I certainly hope that all the data is positive but I think it is folly for any of us to think that this is a known known at this stage.  We will know a lot more prior to the spring term.

One of my daughter's club teammates is making her collegiate debut tonight. I'm excited for her (and her family) and a little bit jealous. While the game is being played, I'm going to shut down any covid-related thoughts and root for a kid I've seen play for years.


----------



## Soccerhelper

dk_b said:


> And part of it being a NOVEL virus is that we can use our knowledge of other viruses as a guide but we don't know with certainty what the impact will be on our bodies.  The rate of myocarditis seems higher than the common flu and other viruses - does that mean the risk of permanent damage is greater?  We don't know b/c there just has not been enough time and enough of a sample.  We will have a greater sample size soon enough and then we can watch if the cardiovascular issues resolve w/younger adults or persist and we can develop policies accordingly.  And as our young people return to "circulation", especially on college campuses, we will have a much better sense of rates of transmission, rates of hospitalization and rates of death among that younger population.  I certainly hope that all the data is positive but I think it is folly for any of us to think that this is a known known at this stage.  We will know a lot more prior to the spring term.
> 
> One of my daughter's club teammates is making her collegiate debut tonight. I'm excited for her (and her family) and a little bit jealous. While the game is being played, I'm going to shut down any covid-related thoughts and root for a kid I've seen play for years.


DK, I love you man and I will forever miss you bro.  I'm going cold turkey after today.  In laws both got Alzheimer's and it sucks turds.  However, it's a great way to help the parents who gave me the thumbs up to marry their angel.  They also helped with some of our down payment on our first house we bought.  No way in hell I'm leaving them in some home care place.  No way.  The fact is, they become #1 priority.  73 and 74 in age and grandma has diabetes.  Both told me they are ok if kids come and see them.  We all wear mask and stay 6 feet apart and wear mask.  Good luck to your dd and I hope Pac 12 comes around like the others.......


----------



## Sandypk

Gonna watch some D1 soccer right now.  ACC baby!!
Duke vs Virginia


----------



## Simisoccerfan

dk_b said:


> My kid's team just ended a solid month of practices - they would be split into 2 groups so no contact and no scrimmaging but still some great work put in - after a month of "voluntary" workouts in smaller groups.  No outbreaks w/in the athletic department (so far as we know).  They will be breaking for about 2 weeks and will require negative tests to (i) move into the dorms and (ii) resume practices (separate tests).  Between the congregant living protocols and the athletic department testing, I think she will be tested quite frequently and, some Jan/Feb, I'd expect them to be tested at least every game day if not every time they enter the facility (like the way the NFL has been doing it) (of course, that assumes widespread availability of rapid tests).


I know your dd's school starts later than mine.  The challenge is when camp breaks and theys start living in apartment or dorms with non-athletes.


----------



## Giesbock

Soccerhelper said:


> I'm talking under 18 and those highest level players looking to play past HS School.  We have lost so many already because we burned many out of the love of the game.  The girls who are left between 15 and 18 in socal havent played a game since Feb.  I do believe their is a strong battle for some reason to keep kids from playing soccer until next years.  So basically the socal teens who love soccer are a shot out of luck?  I see NO reason why healthy kid with great hearts and lungs and strong who are strong athletic type teens cant play soccer.  Zero!!!!


No way to know for sure but here’s my take:  the players that love the game of soccer, love watching the world’s best players, love challenge of perfecting a new skill, love being out with just themself, a great trainer, teacher and maybe 1-2 equals are the true ballers that will be all in when play resumes.
The players that are bored with putting in tha grind have probably been on a diminishing all-in love of the game anyway and this is a convenient off ramp...


----------



## Copa9

Kicker4Life said:


> Dig further....almost every virus causes Heart inflammation. Even Herpes and Hepatitis....the use of the word “COULD” can be used for anything that has a statistical probability (ie getting struck by lightening).  If Von Miller was concerned, why was he saying he was feeling great and looking forward to what he felt could be his best year yet?
> 
> That is a rhetorical question that I don’t expect or want an answer to. Gonna stay on topic from here on out.
> To each his own.  My best you you and your family.


The problem has been repeated often, if you have the flu, herpes, or hepatitis, you know it and can take precautions (rest, etc.). With covid you may not know you have it, then participate in a high active sport and possibly damage your heart.. Simple.


----------



## happy9

outside! said:


> Coronavirus-Infected Athletes Could Face Long-Lasting Side Effects
> 
> 
> A New York Times report found that lung issues and blood clots could pop up for those infected with COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insidehook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Miller had COVID. His recovery was not quick and painless. I am not a doctor, but the reports of inflamed heart muscles in asymptomatic COVID positive D1 athletes are troubling. The reports of COVID patients with scarring in their lungs as shown on chest x-rays is also troubling. There is a lot we don't know, but I am in no hurry to get my D1 player on the field. At the bare minimum we need fast, accurate testing that is readily available to all D1 athletes (and the general population). The biggest reason D1 athletics are under thread is due to the COVID pandemic, which makes COVID issues that pertain directly to D1 athletes relevant to this discussion. I noticed nobody was willing to speculate on how many deaths due to COVID are acceptable for D1 athletes. My answer is zero. This pandemic won't last forever, unlike death.
> 
> In other D1 soccer news, my player's team at a state school is having voluntary off-campus practices with social distancing. Attendance is small since many students are not in town. They are basically trying to stay in shape and maintain some sanity.


Sometimes conclusions by experts are drawn quickly, incorrectly or inaccurately, for whatever reason (you can draw your own conclusions as to why that would be).  

Bottom line is the Big 10 has pivoted on their decision to not play football and will now play their first game on 24 OCT.  The PAC 12, always late to the party and more of a political animal, also reversed course  and is hoping to start play by Halloween.  Interesting to say the least.









						Penn State clarifies doctor's comments on Covid-19 and myocarditis | CNN
					

Penn State University on Thursday clarified the remarks of the school's director of athletic medicine about how many Big Ten athletes who tested positive for coronavirus now show signs of inflammation of the heart muscle.




					www.cnn.com
				




I am hopeful that this paves the way for soccer, especially since there are less fans in the stands.  For now, football will be played without fans in the stands.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

My guess is soccer could return in FEB.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Copa9 said:


> The problem has been repeated often, if you have the flu, herpes, or hepatitis, you know it and can take precautions (rest, etc.). With covid you may not know you have it, then participate in a high active sport and possibly damage your heart.. Simple.


“Could” and “possibly” are very ambiguous terms.  Can you help provide some support on how probable the possibility of an asymptomatic person developing a severe enough case myocarditis that leads to heart damage?


----------



## Soccerfan2

Kicker4Life said:


> “Could” and “possibly” are very ambiguous terms.  Can you help provide some support on how probable the possibility of an asymptomatic person developing a severe enough case myocarditis that leads to heart damage?


I don’t think anyone has enough data at this point to answer that question. Here’s a good read on the topic though. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/08/17/covid-19-can-cause-heart-damageeven-if-you-are-asymptomatic/amp/


----------



## outside!

Soccerfan2 said:


> I don’t think anyone has enough data at this point to answer that question. Here’s a good read on the topic though. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/08/17/covid-19-can-cause-heart-damageeven-if-you-are-asymptomatic/amp/


I think the only way to find out that data would be to run an experiment where college teams start their seasons and wait to see what happens. I hope nobody dies during the experiment.


----------



## Copa9

Kicker4Life said:


> “Could” and “possibly” are very ambiguous terms.  Can you help provide some support on how probable the possibility of an asymptomatic person developing a severe enough case myocarditis that leads to heart damage?


The "problem" is we don't have all the facts yet.  The virus is new.  It sounds like you are willing to take the risk not only with your only player but every other athlete. That is your choice.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Copa9 said:


> The "problem" is we don't have all the facts yet.  The virus is new.  It sounds like you are willing to take the risk not only with your only player but every other athlete. That is your choice.


That’s all we want, a choice!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Once there is a vaccine everyone should have a choice again. I expect good results late NOV.


----------



## Soccer4evr

We should have a choice now not wait until there is a vaccine. We should be focusing on therapeutics, not convinced there will be a vaccine for Covid. So many viruses that have no vaccine yet...flu, cold, HIV


----------



## outside!

Kicker4Life said:


> That’s all we want, a choice!


You want the choice to risk the health of other people?


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> You want the choice to risk the health of other people?


Other people who are concerned  (such as yourself) or who may be at risk would have a choice too.


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Other people who are concerned  (such as yourself) or who may be at risk would have a choice too.


How does this work?

Each person, independently, chooses what risks they wish to take.  I get to choose lower risk by wearing a mask and shopping once a week.  And my neighbor gets to choose to hold parties and go out to dinner when he likes.  

Last I checked, my neighbor and I live in the same city.  How exactly do you propose his risks stay on his side of the fence?


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> How does this work?
> 
> Each person, independently, chooses what risks they wish to take.  I get to choose lower risk by wearing a mask and shopping once a week.  And my neighbor gets to choose to hold parties and go out to dinner when he likes.
> 
> Last I checked, my neighbor and I live in the same city.  How exactly do you propose his risks stay on his side of the fence?


No one talking about house parties, we are talking about youth sports and school....stay on track.


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> No one talking about house parties, we are talking about youth sports and school....stay on track.


What is the difference in an epidemiological sense?


----------



## TOSDCI

espola said:


> What is the difference in an epidemiological sense?


There is a HUGE difference.  House parties with no masks and no social distancing, people close together, drinking = super spreader event.  Soccer with subs sitting 6 feet apart, masks worn to and from the field and other social distancing modifications have yet to be shown to spread Covid.  School with modifications and precautions probably depends on the modifications and the school.


----------



## outside!

TOSDCI said:


> There is a HUGE difference.  House parties with no masks and no social distancing, people close together, drinking = super spreader event.  Soccer with subs sitting 6 feet apart, masks worn to and from the field and other social distancing modifications have yet to be shown to spread Covid.  School with modifications and precautions probably depends on the modifications and the school.


Those modifications when combined with real sports play and practice along with campus attendance have yet to be shown to prevent the spread of COVID. Are college sports happening without the campuses being open for in-person classes? If college sports were to resume, what portion of athletes would participate due to real or unreal perceived pressure when they would prefer not to? No matter what procedures are in place, corners will be cut and there won't be enough testing. Those things cost money. The ONLY reason some conferences are having sports is to try to raise revenue from football. For colleges that do not have football, or don't actually make money from football (which is the majority), what is the incentive to spend the money and take the risk?


----------



## MakeAPlay

outside! said:


> Those modifications when combined with real sports play and practice along with campus attendance have yet to be shown to prevent the spread of COVID. Are college sports happening without the campuses being open for in-person classes? If college sports were to resume, what portion of athletes would participate due to real or unreal perceived pressure when they would prefer not to? No matter what procedures are in place, corners will be cut and there won't be enough testing. Those things cost money. The ONLY reason some conferences are having sports is to try to raise revenue from football. For colleges that do not have football, or don't actually make money from football (which is the majority), what is the incentive to spend the money and take the risk?


Stop making sense.  Sports are everything.  They are worth any risk.  Just kidding I don't want anyone to use this post against me in the future.   Personally if my player was still in college she would be sitting out.  I almost wish it she was still in school because they could pay for the first year of grad school.

Continued good fortune to you and your player.


----------



## gotothebushes

MakeAPlay said:


> Stop making sense.  Sports are everything.  They are worth any risk.  Just kidding I don't want anyone to use this post against me in the future.   Personally if my player was still in college she would be sitting out.  I almost wish it she was still in school because they could pay for the first year of grad school.
> 
> Continued good fortune to you and your player.


Exactly pay for that extra year helps out all parties!  Well said!


----------



## 310soccer

Why can you find NCAA women's soccer scores on ESPN? You can find all other scores but why not women college soccer scores? I tried searching online and couldn't find one article of interest regarding this problem. I'm curious, have anyone ever thought about this?


----------



## dk_b

310soccer said:


> Why can you find NCAA women's soccer scores on ESPN? You can find all other scores but why not women college soccer scores? I tried searching online and couldn't find one article of interest regarding this problem. I'm curious, have anyone ever thought about this?











						College Sports Scoreboards | ESPN
					

Visit ESPN to view College Sports Scoreboards for men's and women's baseball/softball, ice hockey, lacrosse, soccer, volleyball, water polo and field hockey.




					www.espn.com
				




It’s not limited to women’s soccer but it shows the college slate by date.


----------



## Kicker4Life

310soccer said:


> Why can you find NCAA women's soccer scores on ESPN? You can find all other scores but why not women college soccer scores? I tried searching online and couldn't find one article of interest regarding this problem. I'm curious, have anyone ever thought about this?


I get them on the ESPN App. haven’t gone to ESPN.com and looked.


----------



## LASTMAN14

310soccer said:


> Why can you find NCAA women's soccer scores on ESPN? You can find all other scores but why not women college soccer scores? I tried searching online and couldn't find one article of interest regarding this problem. I'm curious, have anyone ever thought about this?


Try this site. It has a calendar of games with scores. If you click into the matchups it will take you to a schools site and there is a link to watch live streamed games.
http://woso-stats.ml/college/2020/composite_arpi


----------



## 310soccer

dk_b said:


> College Sports Scoreboards | ESPN
> 
> 
> Visit ESPN to view College Sports Scoreboards for men's and women's baseball/softball, ice hockey, lacrosse, soccer, volleyball, water polo and field hockey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not limited to women’s soccer but it shows the college slate by date.


This is great! Thank you!


----------



## 310soccer

LASTMAN14 said:


> Try this site. It has a calendar of games with scores. If you click into the matchups it will take you to a schools site and there is a link to watch live streamed games.
> http://woso-stats.ml/college/2020/composite_arpi


 Awesome! Thanks for sharing!!


----------



## Dubs

310soccer said:


> This is great! Thank you!


If you have ESPN+, you can watch most games there and they have games on demand as well.


----------



## 310soccer

Dubs said:


> If you have ESPN+, you can watch most games there and they have games on demand as well.


 I have ESPN+, I just wanted to see where I could find game scores. Not happy with ESPN+ because some games I'm not authorized to watch and majority of those games are the SEC games. Why is that?


----------



## Kicker4Life

310soccer said:


> I have ESPN+, I just wanted to see where I could find game scores. Not happy with ESPN+ because some games I'm not authorized to watch and majority of those games are the SEC games. Why is that?


You may have the SEC channel on your cable service. If so, you need to watch it there. I have the same issue with ACC games.


----------



## LASTMAN14

Kicker4Life said:


> You may have the SEC channel on your cable service. If so, you need to watch it there. I have the same issue with ACC games.


I have enjoyed watching Duke and Virginia. That double overtime game was solid.


----------



## Imtired

outside! said:


> NY and NJ also have the highest population density of all the states. Airborne diseases spread more easily in areas with higher population densities (like college campuses). It is the combination of COVID deaths per capita and population density that provide a meanignful comparison between states.


Yep.  I’d add that NY was one of the states hit hardest the earliest.  So they were the rest of the country’s guinea pig, so to speak.  There positive test rate is less than 1% (.94).


----------



## Kicker4Life

Imtired said:


> Yep.  I’d add that NY was one of the states hit hardest the earliest.  So they were the rest of the country’s guinea pig, so to speak.  There positive test rate is less than 1% (.94).


LA County has been below 1% the entire month of August....yet here we are.


----------



## Dubs

Kicker4Life said:


> LA County has been below 1% the entire month of August....yet here we are.


The state needs to move us along, but we are far down on the list.  I just hope by sometime early next month we can scrimmage.  That would satisfy a lot.


----------



## Imtired

Kicker4Life said:


> LA County has been below 1% the entire month of August....yet here we are.


That’s encouraging.  For me, personally, I’d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to potential long term health complications.  I have a friend whose college soccer daughter got sick along with the majority of the team.  This was in early August. They were social distancing, masks, no contact practice, etc.   However, they were lifting weights indoors where ventilation isn’t great—they are suspecting that’s how they got sick.  Her daughter felt pretty sick but was able to feel close to normal after about 2 weeks.  There are a couple of players who are still experiencing breathing issues (easily out of breath) 6 weeks later.   Another friend’s son plays baseball for a college in TX. A player blew off quarantine and infected a bunch of other players. This all happened last week. Most players are symptomatic but no word on how bad. Her son getting an MRI for heart inflammation next week.


----------



## Kicker4Life

As soon as we were close to moving to “red” they decide to hold off a little longer to see if the Labor Day festivities will cause a spike.....moving the goal posts again....


----------



## Soccer43

Kicker4Life said:


> You may have the SEC channel on your cable service. If so, you need to watch it there. I have the same issue with ACC games.


Sling TV has most of the networks and Hulu Live also has a lot to offer.  I tried ESPN+ and that is a rip off of a subscription, it is hit or miss on what they will allow you to watch and there is no explanation for it.  The technical support number for ESPN is horrible.


----------



## gotothebushes

Pac-12 Will Play Football in 2020, Joining Other Top Leagues During the Pandemic (Published 2020)
					

The decision clears a path for programs like Oregon and Southern California, and means every Power 5 league intends to compete this fall.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Overlap

timbuck said:


> If D1 college soccer goes away- do those players play d2?


or d3...both my DD's play d3 in upstate NY, 1 was recruited several years ago, okay grades and she received a very nice "merit based" scholarship, not tied to playing soccer, she's a senior this year and the season was pushed back until Spring (if it happens), she still wanted to go back to school this year even with the lockdown and no idea of a season. Our youngest was recruited to play for the same school, VERY good grades and she received a HUGE "merit based" scholarship. When the offer was made I was thinking, "I sure hope she takes it!", (it worked out to be way less than any CA State or UC school), again, "merit based" not tied to playing soccer. She's now a soph. and also wanted to go back even without a current season set. Both made the dean's list and honors list each year so far (probably because there's not much else to do), both still training and holding out hope of playing this year. The point is, the sport will remain, in what form, I don't think anyone has a clear idea, especially the longer this goes on. The pool of money at d1 is small to begin with, I believe it was 14 scholarships per year and usually only 1 full ride as the rest is split with other players, some getting little to next to nothing. Reducing the roster at d1 may help somewhat, reducing number of games, travel, I don't think anyone knows but, it's going to change. The player's today need to look at all options if they want to continue to play on after club, this is going to be a very strange recruiting year


----------



## Imtired

Imtired said:


> That’s encouraging.  For me, personally, I’d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to potential long term health complications.  I have a friend whose college soccer daughter got sick along with the majority of the team.  This was in early August. They were social distancing, masks, no contact practice, etc.   However, they were lifting weights indoors where ventilation isn’t great—they are suspecting that’s how they got sick.  Her daughter felt pretty sick but was able to feel close to normal after about 2 weeks.  There are a couple of players who are still experiencing breathing issues (easily out of breath) 6 weeks later.   Another friend’s son plays baseball for a college in TX. A player blew off quarantine and infected a bunch of other players. This all happened last week. Most players are symptomatic but no word on how bad. Her son getting an MRI for heart inflammation next week.


Update on this post.  One soccer player from the group that got sick is STILL not cleared to play due to abnormal heart issues that continue after getting sick.  No underlying conditions.   Baseball player I mentioned in my post is ok and is practicing.  

This virus is just too unpredictable.  So many focusing on the low mortality rate for younger kids, accurately stating its extremely low, but not enough is known about long term complications IMO.   I think we’ll have a vaccine or effective antiviral by 2021, so as sucky as it is to miss an entire season...in the long run it’s not as bad as health problems that may effect the rest of player’s life.


----------



## Soccer43

exactly right - the virus is highly unpredictable.  Many athletes are testing positive but either asymptomatic of full recovery from mild symptoms and no extended consequences.  Hoping that they post some new research on the numbers from all of this.  I hear anectodal stories like the above but what are the statistics on this over the NCAA athletes as a whole?  If your player is the one with complications nothing about how rare that is would make it less upsetting but it would still be helpful to see the larger picture.


----------



## chiefs

Soccer43 said:


> exactly right - the virus is highly unpredictable.  Many athletes are testing positive but either asymptomatic of full recovery from mild symptoms and no extended consequences.  Hoping that they post some new research on the numbers from all of this.  I hear anectodal stories like the above but what are the statistics on this over the NCAA athletes as a whole?  If your player is the one with complications nothing about how rare that is would make it less upsetting but it would still be helpful to see the larger picture.


It’s zero percent death rate world wide for athletes.


----------



## espola

chiefs said:


> It’s zero percent death rate world wide for athletes.


Rounding down?

- Francisco Garcia (21), Spanish football coach, died on March 17 in Malaga
- Shobushi (28), Japanese sumo wrestler, died on May 13
- Muhammad Alloush (44), Egyptian football coach, died on June 29

I left out all of the ones over 50.









						List Of Indian And World Sports Personalities Died Of COVID-19
					

Here is a list of notable sports personalities who have died due to COVID-19 and related complications




					www.outlookindia.com
				




And here is a short list of current athletes who recovered --









						Sports stars who tested positive for COVID-19
					

Here’s a list of sports stars who tested positive for COVID-19




					247sports.com


----------



## chiefs

espola said:


> Rounding down?
> 
> - Francisco Garcia (21), Spanish football coach, died on March 17 in Malaga
> - Shobushi (28), Japanese sumo wrestler, died on May 13
> - Muhammad Alloush (44), Egyptian football coach, died on June 29
> 
> I left out all of the ones over 50.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List Of Indian And World Sports Personalities Died Of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Here is a list of notable sports personalities who have died due to COVID-19 and related complications
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outlookindia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a short list of current athletes who recovered --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sports stars who tested positive for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Here’s a list of sports stars who tested positive for COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 247sports.com


Let me clarify, active athletes have a death rate is 0%!


----------



## Copa9

chiefs said:


> Let me clarify, active athletes have a death rate is 0%!


A 23 year old female professional futsal player died from covid. She was on the Iranian National Futsal team.
 A 19 year old student, a basketball player, at Appalachian State, died from Covid-19 complications. Neither athlete had underlying conditions.  I guess they weren't active enough for you.


----------



## msoccerm

COVID-19 Can Wreck Your Heart, Even if You Haven’t Had Any Symptoms
					

A growing body of research is raising concerns about the cardiac consequences of the coronavirus




					www.scientificamerican.com
				











						Covid-19 Can Cause Heart Damage—Even If You Are Asymptomatic
					

While SARS-CoV-2 may cause cardiac symptoms such as chest pain or shortness of breath resulting in heart attacks and blood clots, there is also the possibility that the virus may cause significant heart damage and inflammation—but without producing any immediate or more noticeable cardiac symptoms.




					www.forbes.com
				




These articles scared my player into social distancing and not going to cafes, etc. School and soccer is all that she does.


----------



## crush

chiefs said:


> Let me clarify, active athletes have a death rate is 0%!


Espy ignores me but you did say athletes, not coaches.  So those two are out.  The last example is a heavy set sumo dude.  Was he obese?


----------



## Mad Hatter

"Previously reported rates of myocarditis in COVID-19 patients ranged from 14% among recovered athletes to 60% in middle-aged and older recovered patients."

"The findings suggest that myocarditis caused by COVID-19 may be relatively rare, according to Vander Heide and co-author Dr. Marc Halushka."










						Heart inflammation from COVID-19 less common than thought
					

Inflammation of the heart muscle, or myocarditis, is less common in COVID-19 patients than previously thought, according to a new study.




					www.upi.com


----------



## espola

Mad Hatter said:


> "Previously reported rates of myocarditis in COVID-19 patients ranged from 14% among recovered athletes to 60% in middle-aged and older recovered patients."
> 
> "The findings suggest that myocarditis caused by COVID-19 may be relatively rare, according to Vander Heide and co-author Dr. Marc Halushka."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heart inflammation from COVID-19 less common than thought
> 
> 
> Inflammation of the heart muscle, or myocarditis, is less common in COVID-19 patients than previously thought, according to a new study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.upi.com


Did you read beyond the headline?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Did you read beyond the headline?


Do the two quotes he showed count?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Do the two quotes he showed count?


He could have gotten that much from his twitter feed.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> He could have gotten that much from his twitter feed.


Did you read the article?


----------



## MSK357

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you read the article?


he doesnt really care, grandpa just wants someone to talk to.


----------



## Copa9

espola said:


> Did you read beyond the headline?


Agree, it was a small sample, 277 people who actually died of covid. It was not a large study of people who have had it and recovered.


----------



## espola

Copa9 said:


> Agree, it was a small sample, 277 people who actually died of covid. It was not a large study of people who have had it and recovered.


Since we are talking D1 soccer players (presuming that from the thread title) the implications of long-term damage to surviving athletes would seem to be more germane.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Did you read the article?


Yes, I did, and other articles that spoke of the study.  They researched the damage in dead people, not living athletes.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Yes, I did, and other articles that spoke of the study.  They researched the damage in dead people, not living athletes.


We definitely don't want them doing autopsies on living athletes. I guess the good news here is that there aren't enough dead athletes to autopsy. Let's hope it stays that way.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> We definitely don't want them doing autopsies on living athletes. I guess the good news here is that there aren't enough dead athletes to autopsy. Let's hope it stays that way.


There are other ways to "see" internal damage besides autopsies.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> Since we are talking D1 soccer players (presuming that from the thread title) the implications of long-term damage to surviving athletes would seem to be more germane.


This study simply indicated whether myocarditis was present in those dying of COVID. The fact that it was much lower than initially reported is good news. Period. There are a lot of athletes out there who got COVID and are back to athleting - for many months now. So far so good.

I'm curious. How long do you think it will be before those "long-term damage" results start trickling in? Are you recommending not playing soccer until then?


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> This study simply indicated whether myocarditis was present in those dying of COVID. The fact that it was much lower than initially reported is good news. Period. There are a lot of athletes out there who got COVID and are back to athleting - for many months now. So far so good.
> 
> I'm curious. How long do you think it will be before those "long-term damage" results start trickling in? Are you recommending not playing soccer until then?


The initial reporting was based on people who are not dead.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> This study simply indicated whether myocarditis was present in those dying of COVID. The fact that it was much lower than initially reported is good news. Period. There are a lot of athletes out there who got COVID and are back to athleting - for many months now. So far so good.
> 
> I'm curious. How long do you think it will be before those "long-term damage" results start trickling in? Are you recommending not playing soccer until then?


Kind of depends on the fraction of patients who have long term impacts.  So far, we have anecdotes of long haul covid patients, and anecdotes of covid patients returning to play.  No real data.

As a result, each person sees what they want to see.  People who want more caution point to the long haul anecdotes.  People who want less caution point to the return to play anecdotes.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> Kind of depends on the fraction of patients who have long term impacts.  So far, we have anecdotes of long haul covid patients, and anecdotes of covid patients returning to play.  No real data.
> 
> As a result, each person sees what they want to see.  People who want more caution point to the long haul anecdotes.  People who want less caution point to the return to play anecdotes.


There is a theory floating about that we should let the kids play because they are not likely to die from it.  The fact that recovered persons, including those who never exhibited any symptoms, may have long-lasting or permanent heart damage should not be ignored.  

I have two cousins who contracted rheumatic fever as children in the '40s.  Both recovered, but one of them had severe enough heart damage that he failed the Air Force enlistment physical and was sent home.

--and they didn't have to do an autopsy to find out--


----------



## crush

espola said:


> There is a theory floating about that we should let the kids play because they are not likely to die from it.  *The fact that recovered persons, including those who never exhibited any symptoms, may have long-lasting or permanent heart damage should not be ignored. *
> 
> I have two cousins who contracted rheumatic fever as children in the '40s.  Both recovered, but one of them had severe enough heart damage that he failed the Air Force enlistment physical and was sent home.
> 
> --and they didn't have to do an autopsy to find out--


Coo Coo Doctor, I *may *die in my sleep.  I *may* crash on my way to Vegas for a soccer game tomorrow.  I *maaaaaaaay!!!!* My gosh, you won, can we at least have the kids play soccer.  My kid and all the other kids I know what to play and are willing to risk what "may" happen later.  Good grief.  You seem so active now too.  Not having Messy as your other avatar has made you go extra.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> Coo Coo Doctor, I *may *die in my sleep.  I *may* crash on my way to Vegas for a soccer game tomorrow.  I *maaaaaaaay!!!!* My gosh, you won, can we at least have the kids play soccer.  My kid and all the other kids I know what to play and are willing to risk what "may" happen later.  Good grief.  You seem so active now too.  Not having Messy as your other avatar has made you go extra.


You *may* die if you try to play frogger on the 405, but what the f**k right? You should do it because you might not. 

Of course, whether you die or not has nothing to do with whether you give it to someone who will, which  is obviously happening a lot due to all the idiots like you who don’t care about anyone other than yourself.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> Kind of depends on the fraction of patients who have long term impacts.  So far, we have anecdotes of long haul covid patients, and anecdotes of covid patients returning to play.  No real data.
> 
> As a result, each person sees what they want to see.  People who want more caution point to the long haul anecdotes.  People who want less caution point to the return to play anecdotes.


Are you saying it's irrelevant that those that have died have a lower incidence of myocarditis than expected and you wouldn't have felt any differently if 95% of those that died had evidence of myocarditis? I would have.

Also, if there is no significant risk of exercising after recovering from COVID, won't that show by not having any data as people aren't dying after recovery? Isn't the data, "x number of people recovered and y of these died exercising due to myocarditis"? I think x is pretty big right now. Is there any report on "y"?

I'm not arguing that it makes no difference whether you catch COVID or not. We have seen that it can cause damage to the heart. What I am arguing is that I haven't seen any evidence that after recovery people are falling over dead due to exercising with myocarditis brought on by COVID. Remember, the really scary part of that initial study was that you might have myocarditis from an asymptomatic case of COVID.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> The initial reporting was based on people who are not dead.


You forgot to answer my questions.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

espola said:


> There is a theory floating about that we should let the kids play because they are not likely to die from it.  The fact that recovered persons, including those who never exhibited any symptoms, may have long-lasting or permanent heart damage should not be ignored.
> 
> I have two cousins who contracted rheumatic fever as children in the '40s.  Both recovered, but one of them had severe enough heart damage that he failed the Air Force enlistment physical and was sent home.
> 
> --and they didn't have to do an autopsy to find out--


Even a million years ago when we were young espola, doctors performed physicals. They still do. I doubt anyone on this board will ignore their doctor's advice regarding their child's heart. So, yeah, get your child a physical and get them outside exercising before they end up scared and under their bed all day petrified by all the different ways they "could" die.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> Are you saying it's irrelevant that those that have died have a lower incidence of myocarditis than expected and you wouldn't have felt any differently if 95% of those that died had evidence of myocarditis? I would have.
> 
> Also, if there is no significant risk of exercising after recovering from COVID, won't that show by not having any data as people aren't dying after recovery? Isn't the data, "x number of people recovered and y of these died exercising due to myocarditis"? I think x is pretty big right now. Is there any report on "y"?
> 
> I'm not arguing that it makes no difference whether you catch COVID or not. We have seen that it can cause damage to the heart. What I am arguing is that I haven't seen any evidence that after recovery people are falling over dead due to exercising with myocarditis brought on by COVID. Remember, the really scary part of that initial study was that you might have myocarditis from an asymptomatic case of COVID.


You may well have followed it more closely than I have.   If you have good data on recovered patients (as fraction of total) and patients with long term effects (as fraction of total), pass it along.  So far, most of what I have found is N=1, and utterly useless.


----------



## espola

kickingandscreaming said:


> Even a million years ago when we were young espola, doctors performed physicals. They still do. I doubt anyone on this board will ignore their doctor's advice regarding their child's heart. So, yeah, get your child a physical and get them outside exercising before they end up scared and under their bed all day petrified by all the different ways they "could" die.


Coocoo.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> You may well have followed it more closely than I have.   If you have good data on recovered patients (as fraction of total) and patients with long term effects (as fraction of total), pass it along.  So far, most of what I have found is N=1, and utterly useless.


To be clear, I am not talking about those with obvious long-term effects. They should be under a doctor's care. I am specifically talking about everyone who has recovered and there is nothing obviously wrong. Again, a big fear when that study first came out was that you could be at risk and not even know it because it indicated that having myocarditis was independent of being symptomatic.

No, I haven't seen anything. If we heard anything this soon, that would be bad news. It's too soon to definitively say, this isn't a risk. I suppose there could be a study done now for those that caught in the first wave in the spring. They've had about 6 months to recover.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> You may well have followed it more closely than I have.   If you have good data on recovered patients (as fraction of total) and patients with long term effects (as fraction of total), pass it along.  So far, most of what I have found is N=1, and utterly useless.


Anecdotal only -- my brother and his wife in Alaska both had covid back in the Spring.  She thinks she caught it on a visit to her father in Colorado just before all the shutdowns happened, and he got it from her.  The wife is a doctor, so they have daily medical care and checkups as needed.  She seems to be fully recovered;  he is concerned that he is feeling weaker, with less strength and aerobic capacity -- but it might be just that he is 71.

They are both winter sports people (he volunteers as the Chief Engineer at a local non-profit ski area, and they both run a Samoyed sled dog team just for fun) so they will be finding out soon if they have lost a step.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

The Ivy League is canceling winter sports for the 2020-21 season, the conference announced Thursday.

The conference is also postponing spring sports until at least the end of February and won't conduct competition for fall sports during the spring semester.

"This is definitely not a decision we want to make, but I know it's the right decision for the Ivy League," Robin Harris, the conference's executive director, told ESPN.

These decisions were made unanimously by the Ivy League Council of Presidents.


ADVERTISEMENT

"The Council will continue to closely monitor and evaluate the public health climate and consider changes to policies when warranted in order to return to more normal campus operations, including potential spring intercollegiate athletics competition," the Ivy League said in a release.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Even though athletes get a free year whether they play or not the Ivy league is also not changing their policy allowing grad students to play.


----------



## dad4

Simisoccerfan said:


> Even though athletes get a free year whether they play or not the Ivy league is also not changing their policy allowing grad students to play.


No scholarships at ivies, I thought.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

No athletic scholarships and no graduate students playing sports but you get the golden ticket to their alumni network for a high paying job.


----------



## espola

dad4 said:


> No scholarships at ivies, I thought.


No athletic scholarships, but they maintain positions near the top in many sports by other means.

If you can get in, financial aid support will make sure your family can afford it, and if you have a solid athletic record, sometimes that's enough to get you in.


----------



## SBFDad

Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
					

The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.



					www.tcpalm.com
				




“CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”

Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I seriously cannot figure out why.


----------



## dk_b

SBFDad said:


> Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
> 
> 
> The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”
> 
> Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I seriously cannot figure out why.


i think it’s a leveling. The P5 have such an inherent advantage in general and it would be even greater if recruiting were permitted given the shock that athletic department budgets are experiencing. It would be so much harder for the smaller schools (and even big schools) to budget for trips and other recruiting activities when the schedules remain so uncertain across sports so overall expenses, revenues and even viability of a program within a department are hard to predict.


----------



## espola

SBFDad said:


> Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
> 
> 
> The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”
> 
> Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I seriously cannot figure out why.


You don't think the money sports could show some social responsibility?


----------



## happy9

espola said:


> You don't think the money sports could show some social responsibility?


Uh no.  Altruism is not a characteristic that will ever be attributed to anything the NCAA does. Maybe CYAism,


----------



## Kicker4Life

SBFDad said:


> Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
> 
> 
> The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”
> 
> Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I seriously cannot figure out why.


Travel budget cuts......my hunch


----------



## kickingandscreaming

SBFDad said:


> Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
> 
> 
> The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”
> 
> Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I seriously cannot figure out why.


I have to believe it has something to do with uncertainty with funding. I suppose it’s better than offering players scholarship money they eventually won’t be able to deliver.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

I think it has more to do with employee safety.  What college wants their coaches out on the road right now?


----------



## lafalafa

$$$ everything revolves around finances. What do athletic departments cut first, 2nd, 3rd:. Staff, travel, scholarship?

Downsizing will likely be ongoing for many years, recovering from the financial losses and budget constraints due to COVID-19 will take many years, plus the added cost of the new requirements. Reduced revenue from the money sports, fewer enrollments, reductions in State and federal contributions are already happening. Relief bills  @ the federal level hopefully will help if a new administration can get them passed.

The pie is only so big, some will still get a slice but there slice is likely to be smaller and harder to obtain so don't count on it for your athlete.

Have a plan for your student athletes to move their education forward regardless of what happens in D1.   Would they still attend or be happy at the University of sports is not going on or if they no longer can offer scholarships at the level they did previously?


----------



## Copa9

SBFDad said:


> Recruiting: Extending the NCAA dead period through April would be 'bad on everybody'
> 
> 
> The Class of 2021 could go an entire calendar year without having college coaches on campus or being allowed to take official visits.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “CBS Sports’ Dennis Dodd is reporting that the NCAA dead period, which has been in place since March because of the coronavirus pandemic, will be extended through April 15, 2021. Dodd said the NCAA Council is expected to approve the move at its meeting Nov. 18.”
> 
> Can someone explain why Div 1 is hamstringing their own efforts on recruiting? This is their own decision, not thrust upon them by some higher power. I‘m not buying that it has anything to do with some sort of social responsibility surrounding the pandemic. I’ll guess the decision revolves around the money sports (football and basketball), but I
> seriously cannot figure out why.


A little off topic, congratulations to my bgdd on signing her NLI Wednesday to play D1 soccer!  Scholarship in tact!  Congratulations to all the other girls who also signed.  Way to stay strong, work hard, ignore rumors, and move on to the next level!


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## crush

Simisoccerfan said:


> I think it has more to do with employee safety.  What college wants their coaches out on the road right now?


I saw a lot of D2 and D3 at the Reach 11 so far last two days.  Those D2 Presidents are so hard on their coaches and treat them so harsh.  I guess I must be such a terrible parent for allowing my goat to play in AZ yesterday, today and tomorrow.   Bad dad!!!


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## Giesbock

Glad you’re out there Crush and family!  Keep social distance, no team dinners and everything should be ok.  

if coaches are there, guess I can only hope there were a few out a few weekends ago to see my kid rock it on Saturday and score a nice goal on Sunday.


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## crush

Giesbock said:


> Glad you’re out there Crush and family!  Keep social distance, no team dinners and everything should be ok.
> 
> if coaches are there, guess I can only hope there were a few out a few weekends ago to see my kid rock it on Saturday and score a nice goal on Sunday.


I can't wait to make that 5 and half hr drive tmrw after our 7:30am ((6:30am for socal kids)).  I'm done with soccer until next year Gies bock.  Stay safe out there.  Hopefully OC can be Orange and can get HS Soccer going next year and just focus on free soccer.  I cant see kids from California allowed to leave the state anymore.  HS Soccer seams like the next best thing.


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## lafalafa

The crisis in college sports
					

With revenues plummeting in the pandemic, colleges are eliminating Olympic sports like diving and volleyball



					bypass.theweek.com


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## eastbaysoccer

Big West cancels fall sports, ending seasons for cross country, soccer and volleyball players at Cal Poly, UCSB | Local Sports | syvnews.com


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## Dubs

eastbaysoccer said:


> Big West cancels fall sports, ending seasons for cross country, soccer and volleyball players at Cal Poly, UCSB | Local Sports | syvnews.com


Well if that isn't a kick in the balls


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## eastbaysoccer

UC Riverside and the terms of Division I survival in the season of COVID-19
					

UC Riverside has a proposal on the table to eliminate Division I athletics due to the financial impact of the coronavirus pandemic. Could other troubled programs be next?




					www.google.com


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## eastbaysoccer

So what's taking the the PAC-12 and the WCC so long to cancel the season.  BIG West, IVY and few strays have canceled.  I can't imagine there's a loss in revenue for volleyball, soccer, baseball, track, etc.  All of those cost money to run and universities are losing tens of millions in lost housing revenue.  Furlough all athletic staff not affiliated with revenue generated programs.  

1) There's no way Newsome is going to allow non revenue sports to compete.
2) COVID is blowing up in LA with 0 ICU beds available and expect this to hit a peak in the next 7 days or so.  
3) Vaccine distribution is going at a snail pace because health care workers are stretched thin.


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## dk_b

eastbaysoccer said:


> So what's taking the the PAC-12 and the WCC so long to cancel the season.  BIG West, IVY and few strays have canceled.  I can't imagine there's a loss in revenue for volleyball, soccer, baseball, track, etc.  All of those cost money to run and universities are losing tens of millions in lost housing revenue.  Furlough all athletic staff not affiliated with revenue generated programs.
> 
> 1) There's no way Newsome is going to allow non revenue sports to compete.
> 2) COVID is blowing up in LA with 0 ICU beds available and expect this to hit a peak in the next 7 days or so.
> 3) Vaccine distribution is going at a snail pace because health care workers are stretched thin.


Based on yesterday's release by the Pac12 regarding attendance, I think the Pac is still planning on playing a season. The WCC has released its conference schedule. I do think that conferences/schools that did have football and had/have protocols in place for football and basketball, will try very hard to have a season. Otherwise, they will have an equivalency argument that they will have to defend. If it were solely a public health defense, that might work but when they have demonstrated some ability to have protocols for the last several months, their public health defense may not be as strong.

Here's yesterday's press release: Pac-12 extends prohibition of fan attendance at sports competitions | Pac-12 (pac-12.com)


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## eastbaysoccer

dk_b said:


> Based on yesterday's release by the Pac12 regarding attendance, I think the Pac is still planning on playing a season. The WCC has released its conference schedule. I do think that conferences/schools that did have football and had/have protocols in place for football and basketball, will try very hard to have a season. Otherwise, they will have an equivalency argument that they will have to defend. If it were solely a public health defense, that might work but when they have demonstrated some ability to have protocols for the last several months, their public health defense may not be as strong.
> 
> Here's yesterday's press release: Pac-12 extends prohibition of fan attendance at sports competitions | Pac-12 (pac-12.com)


thanks for the information.  Seems like there are different rules depending on what county you are in .

Recently in San Francisco there was a mandatory 10 day quarantine  for anyone entering the county.  Clearly this would affect many teams coming to play USF.

Santa Clara is going is going to have some issue having games in their county, one of the most progressive and restrictive counties in the bay area.
I mean the NINERS can't play in their own stadium despite NFL covid protocol.  Crazy.


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## eastbaysoccer

dk_b said:


> Based on yesterday's release by the Pac12 regarding attendance, I think the Pac is still planning on playing a season. The WCC has released its conference schedule. I do think that conferences/schools that did have football and had/have protocols in place for football and basketball, will try very hard to have a season. Otherwise, they will have an equivalency argument that they will have to defend. If it were solely a public health defense, that might work but when they have demonstrated some ability to have protocols for the last several months, their public health defense may not be as strong.
> 
> Here's yesterday's press release: Pac-12 extends prohibition of fan attendance at sports competitions | Pac-12 (pac-12.com)


Yes I wondered about the equivalency argument.  It's probably why entire athletic staff haven't been furloughed by now.


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## dk_b

eastbaysoccer said:


> thanks for the information.  Seems like there are different rules depending on what county you are in .
> 
> Recently in San Francisco there was a mandatory 10 day quarantine  for anyone entering the county.  Clearly this would affect many teams coming to play USF.
> 
> Santa Clara is going is going to have some issue having games in their county, one of the most progressive and restrictive counties in the bay area.
> I mean the NINERS can't play in their own stadium despite NFL covid protocol.  Crazy.


Yes - Stanford hoops have played home games in Santa Cruz (both men and women are showing home games at stanford in the next 10+ days or so).  The Warriors are playing at home in SF tonight and USF seems to be playing home basketball games (and the Dons men's hoops team is scheduled to play at Santa Clara on Jan 21).

It's going to be a challenge, especially if lodging is necessary b/c I think the overnight stays are where you run into the quarantine rules.

Re the equivalency question: I do think the WCC's schedule is more tenuous b/c they don't have football.  But I also think that the fact that they are continuing a basketball season, while not an equity issue (since men's and women's teams offset on #s), they have a harder argument that other sports can't move forward (caveat: if a municipality or a state prohibits it, I'd expect that to trump anything the schools might want or be able to do)


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## Jose has returned

eastbaysoccer said:


> So what's taking the the PAC-12 and the WCC so long to cancel the season.  BIG West, IVY and few strays have canceled.  I can't imagine there's a loss in revenue for volleyball, soccer, baseball, track, etc.  All of those cost money to run and universities are losing tens of millions in lost housing revenue.  Furlough all athletic staff not affiliated with revenue generated programs.
> 
> 1) There's no way Newsome is going to allow non revenue sports to compete.
> 2) COVID is blowing up in LA with 0 ICU beds available and expect this to hit a peak in the next 7 days or so.
> 3) Vaccine distribution is going at a snail pace because health care workers are stretched thin.


vaccine distribution is going slow because the governor didn't have a plan.  There are a lot of people that can give the shot.  FF paramedics are in just about every city in the state.  Even vets and lab techs can give it.  It is very simple.  He just failed to plan again.


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## dad4

Jose has returned said:


> vaccine distribution is going slow because the governor didn't have a plan.  There are a lot of people that can give the shot.  FF paramedics are in just about every city in the state.  Even vets and lab techs can give it.  It is very simple.  He just failed to plan again.


 A lot of states seem to be politicizing and  overthinking the rollout.  

They spent too much time thinking about the impact on racial/ethnic identity groups, and too little time thinking about when, where, and how to give millions of injections.

Interestingly, North Dakota seems to be doing the best.  They have about 3/4 of their allotment already into arms.  We are down at 1/4.


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## EOTL

Jose has returned said:


> vaccine distribution is going slow because the governor didn't have a plan.  There are a lot of people that can give the shot.  FF paramedics are in just about every city in the state.  Even vets and lab techs can give it.  It is very simple.  He just failed to plan again.


All these people who spent their entire adult lives complaining about government intrusion on private business, and who did nothing to help control spread that has overwhelmed our healthcare system, are now complaining that the governor disn’t forcing veterinarians to store and distribute vaccines.


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## SoccerFan4Life

Jose has returned said:


> vaccine distribution is going slow because the governor didn't have a plan.  There are a lot of people that can give the shot.  FF paramedics are in just about every city in the state.  Even vets and lab techs can give it.  It is very simple.  He just failed to plan again.


To my understanding it’s not so easy because they need to keep them in extremely cold refrigerators.  Does CVS have the equipment to handle the Pfizer vaccine?


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## Soccer43

Is it at all possible to keep even one thread on the original soccer topic or do all soccer threads have to erode to debating COVID?


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## crush




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## Jose has returned

EOTL said:


> All these people who spent their entire adult lives complaining about government intrusion on private business, and who did nothing to help control spread that has overwhelmed our healthcare system, are now complaining that the governor disn’t forcing veterinarians to store and distribute vaccines.


well when you were in New York did you get the shot?   They were told a vaccine was coming and Ca.  failed to plan.  Nobody said anything about forcing vets to store and give the shot. They can volunteer to go work at the locations administering the vaccine.  Giving the shot can be done by anyone that can pinch an arm and inject a shot.  If you can give your dog a shot you can do this.....Seems to me you are a govt. official that talks big but can't plan and execute.


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## Jose has returned

dad4 said:


> A lot of states seem to be politicizing and  overthinking the rollout.
> 
> They spent too much time thinking about the impact on racial/ethnic identity groups, and too little time thinking about when, where, and how to give millions of injections.
> 
> Interestingly, North Dakota seems to be doing the best.  They have about 3/4 of their allotment already into arms.  We are down at 1/4.


I agree with you.


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## Jose has returned

SoccerFan4Life said:


> To my understanding it’s not so easy because they need to keep them in extremely cold refrigerators.  Does CVS have the equipment to handle the Pfizer vaccine?


LA county is using Moderna and are doing a poor job getting into arms. I don't what CVS has or doesn't have


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