# Where was really the first covid case in the world?



## blam

Any experts like to critic this analysis that it wasn't in Wuhan?


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Any experts like to critic this analysis that it wasn't in Wuhan?


Chinese state media has been looking to find a way to blame someone else for a while now.

Part of that effort is denying WHO experts access to the lab and samples from wuhan.  If you block access to early wuhan samples, other samples seem earlier in the timeline than they actually are.   Then you find saps willing to push the non-wuhan narrative


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> Part of that effort is denying WHO


Why do you say there is effort to deny WHO access? I never seen this in any news. In fact, what I read is they are inviting WHO to investigate the origin.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Why do you say there is effort to deny WHO access? I never seen this in any news. In fact, what I read is they are inviting WHO to investigate the origin.


That's because you are behind the firewall, and I can read whatever I like.


----------



## dad4

For example, I can say Tombstone is a good book, exposing Mao's role in creating the famine of '59-'61


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> For example, I can say Tombstone is a good book, exposing Mao's role in creating the famine of '59-'61


proof that you read a lot of garbage with propaganda slant. You should have read it earlier then maybe you could have done some things to help?

I had ask this questions from my Chinese friends and none that I had encountered to date had known anyone that died during that time due to”famine”.

having info does not mean you will get good info. The clearest example is religion. Every street corner,every other channel is some religious channel about some guy who will come again from heaven to save us all. That alone is proof of how the majority of people believe in fiction. Religion is fiction. And if I have offended god,May he strike me down with a lightning or involve me in a deadly car crash. Bet you I will still alive this time next week. He can’t do anything to me.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> proof that you read a lot of garbage with propaganda slant. You should have read it earlier then maybe you could have done some things to help?
> 
> I had ask this questions from my Chinese friends and none that I had encountered to date had known anyone that died during that time due to”famine”.
> 
> having info does not mean you will get good info. The clearest example is religion. Every street corner,every other channel is some religious channel about some guy who will come again from heaven to save us all. That alone is proof of how the majority of people believe in fiction. Religion is fiction. And if I have offended god,May he strike me down with a lightning or involve me in a deadly car crash. Bet you I will still alive this time next week. He can’t do anything to me.


The story Ma tells is convincing, and well documented.

Mao issued orders to boost grain production.  It was impossible to meet the quotas.  So the local governors lied about yields.  Telling the truth would be unwise.

Because of the lies there was a lot of food- at least on paper.  Food was centralized, leaving 30 million peasants to starve.  Meanwhile Mao himself was getting fat on fried fish.

The same thing happened in Russia in the 1930s.  And again in Cambodia in the 1970s.

I know this isn’t the story you hear in history class.  Your schools pretend it didn’t happen.

Enjoy writing paid posts for President Pooh-Bear.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The story Ma tells is convincing, and well documented.
> 
> Mao issued orders to boost grain production.  It was impossible to meet the quotas.  So the local governors lied about yields.  Telling the truth would be unwise.
> 
> Because of the lies there was a lot of food- at least on paper.  Food was centralized, leaving 30 million peasants to starve.  Meanwhile Mao himself was getting fat on fried fish.
> 
> The same thing happened in Russia in the 1930s.  And again in Cambodia in the 1970s.
> 
> I know this isn’t the story you hear in history class.  Your schools pretend it didn’t happen.
> 
> Enjoy writing paid posts for President Pooh-Bear.


a Chinese bot in the off topic section of a regional soccer forum in a country that isn’t even a soccer power?  Either Pooh has money to burn or someone’s going to wind up in a Uighur prison camp with a lot of explaining to do.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> a Chinese bot in the off topic section of a regional soccer forum in a country that isn’t even a soccer power?  Either Pooh has money to burn or someone’s going to wind up in a Uighur prison camp with a lot of explaining to do.


Do you have a better explanation for this thread?  

Doesn't have to be a Uighur camp in Xin Jiang.  Maybe he will end up in Qing Hai.


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> I know this isn’t the story you hear in history class


Right...and the reason is because when it comes to History of China we only covered the general ideas since it isnt history of our country.

When you study something, you always need to read it with a critical mind. Without a critical mind, you will end up getting brainwashed. You also need to learn many different languages, so that you can get your sources from many different viewpoints. If you only read English books, then you will just get an Anglo centric viewpoint of the world.  Cuantos lenguajes puede hablar? 1? 2? 

I hate to be going off topic here as I am more interested in the covid discussion but since you brought it up, remember, in the cold war and even up till today, the Capitalist nations are in a propaganda war against nations that has a potential to rise up and challenge them.

The ideological war of the cold war era is really a disguise for a war for supremacy. It continues to this day. Russia is still very much hated as in the cold war era even though the cold war is over and it is no longer communist. No it was no ideological war. They just didn't like the Russians because Russia was a threat.

Famines happened often in China even during the time of Imperial China and later when China was under the rule of the government in Taiwan. The famine that you mentioned had mistakes that were made, part of this was an experiment in communism. This was one of the early days of communism. There wasn't good enough resources then shelter any mishaps. Per capita income according to my source which I just googled says that it was $90 (GDP/capita) in China vs $3000 in USA at the time of the famine. Today it is at $12000 vs $70000. The average american was 33 times richer in 1960 and today is 6 times richer. 

The question is is the book written as propaganda or was it written to help? Did these countries send food aid during the famine, or did they just hastily pulled out their typewriters to start discrediting communism and laugh at the situation?

Some of the goods of the legacy of that era that we should celebrate are:
1. State attempt to eliminate religion and superstition. I personally wished this had gone further. Religion is the root of a lot of evils. 
2. It discarded such communal attempts. Now, it is going back to true Marx which is to embrace capitalism.

Since you didn't' learn this in your history class, Marx in his first chapter of his book Capital wrote that Capitalism is the best system to generate wealth in the form of an equation. Yes, you find that surprising huh that Marx said that? 

In fact, in the long run, a nation needs to progress from Agrarian -> Industrialization -> Capitalism -> Socialism -> Communism.


----------



## dad4

Yingwen. Zhongwen.  Xibanyawen.  Dewen.

Wo de zhongwen bu bi ni de yingwen.  Yinggai yong yingwen kan Tombstone.

Ni ne?  Ni kan zhongwen de tombstone hou shi yingwen de tombstone?


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Yingwen. Zhongwen.  Xibanyawen.  Dewen.
> 
> Wo de zhongwen bu bi ni de yingwen.  Yinggai yong yingwen kan Tombstone.
> 
> Ni ne?  Ni kan zhongwen de tombstone hou shi yingwen de tombstone?


Impressive......

Rassiyane veryat tolka v rodinu y Putinu.  Rodina i religiya adno i tozhe.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Impressive......
> 
> Rassiyane veryat tolka v rodinu y Putinu.  Rodina i religiya adno i tozhe.


Россияне верят только в родину и Путину. Родина и религия одно и тоже.


----------



## Grace T.

espola said:


> Россияне верят только в родину и Путину. Родина и религия одно и тоже.


Do dad's now in mandarin characters.....


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Do dad's now in mandarin characters.....


Simplified, please.  I used pinyin, not zhuyin.  I suspect our amigo is not from the country of Taiwan.


----------



## espola

Grace T. said:


> Do dad's now in mandarin characters.....


My study of Mandarin is limited to a few obscene words shown in our computer lab by a Taiwanese engineer who worked there. At our request, he drew the ideograms and then told us the literal English equivalents to the character fragments that made up the whole word --  things like "rice field common" and "into meat".


----------



## blam

Mei you li el lebo. Si sabee idoma, liste news de zi yuan de chino sobre ze ge vaine. que cuenta. Or do solo kan ying yu?


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> Mei you li el lebo. Si sabee idoma, liste news de zi yuan de chino sobre ze ge vaine. que cuenta. Or do solo kan ying yu?


@dad4  At least we know he's not from a Spanish speaking country and isn't a Cuban bot.


----------



## dad4

He’s mixing languages mid sentence.

It doesn’t work well.   The world has too many false cognates to really pull it off.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> He’s mixing languages mid sentence.
> 
> It doesn’t work well.   The world has too many false cognates to really pull it off.


Yeah, if it's suppose to be Spanish or Portuguese or French or even Catalan it's done poorly and with errors.  Can't speak to whether Esperanto, Italian, Romanian or Maltese was used.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Mei you li el lebo. Si sabee idoma, liste news de zi yuan de chino sobre ze ge vaine. que cuenta. Or do solo kan ying yu?


I read both sides of the Epoch Times.  Excellent paper.  Tells you exactly what is going on in the mainland.

You realize how ridiculous is is for someone behind the firewall to tell me that my news is limited?  Even if I have to read the English translation of La Monde, at least I am allowed to read it.  

Pick up Tombstone.  Then judge it.  As I said, it is very well documented.






						Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962: Jisheng, Yang, Friedman, Edward, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Friedman, Edward, MacFarquhar, Roderick: 9780374533991: Amazon.com: Books
					

Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962 [Jisheng, Yang, Friedman, Edward, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Friedman, Edward, MacFarquhar, Roderick] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962



					www.amazon.com
				




(And let us know whether you can see the above link, or whether the firewall lets you see the link at all.)


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, if it's suppose to be Spanish or Portuguese or French or even Catalan it's done poorly and with errors.  Can't speak to whether Esperanto, Italian, Romanian or Maltese was used.


Errors purposefully injected so that you no cannot just paste into translator. Languages are mixed to further confuse any aid of machine. But a human versed in those languages simultaneously should be able to understand.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Errors purposefully injected so that you no cannot just paste into translator. Languages are mixed to further confuse any aid of machine. But a human versed in those languages simultaneously should be able to understand.


Maybe just try to keep up with English.  You've made enough errors with that as it is.

That said, your English is still far better than any of my second languages.  But language is best when the purpose is to communicate, so let's focus on that.

Try reading Tombstone, if you can get a copy.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> Errors purposefully injected so that you no cannot just paste into translator. Languages are mixed to further confuse any aid of machine. But a human versed in those languages simultaneously should be able to understand.


If it was your intent to be clever you took the wrong tactic.  A native speaker (or even a fluent speaker) will just assume you don't know what you are doing.

Careful.  The higher ups monitoring your work will not be pleased.  You wouldn't want what's happening to your Uighur compatriots to happen to you.


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> I read both sides of the Epoch Times. Excellent paper. Tells you exactly what is going on in the mainland.


Epoch times ??? Epoch times is funded by Falun Gong which is a cult. Its leader believe in some weird conspiracy theory about some aliens interacting with humans.









						Li Hongzhi - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




"In 1999 Li Hongzhi stated that he believes evil aliens walk the Earth and that modern science is part of their ploy to control humanity, and he has reportedly said that he can walk through walls and make himself invisible. Li says that he is a being from a higher level who has come to help humankind from the destruction it could face as the result of rampant evil.

Are you a paid Falun gong bot. They are rich. I see their papers everywhere available for free for anyone who wants them.

Hang on...so you also believe in conspiracy theories regarding Nazi like Uighur concentration camps and organ harvesting? These seems to be popular topics with epoch times. I used to pick up copies to improve my chinese back in the early 2000s in case you are wondering how I know about organ harvesting. I even attending a meeting at UCSD at one time thinking that it would bring me closer to chinese culture (late 90s) before I knew this organization was a cult.

Many of their conspiracy theories just do not pass the common sense test.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Epoch times ??? Epoch times is funded by Falun Gong which is a cult. Its leader believe in some weird conspiracy theory about some aliens interacting with humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Li Hongzhi - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "In 1999 Li Hongzhi stated that he believes evil aliens walk the Earth and that modern science is part of their ploy to control humanity, and he has reportedly said that he can walk through walls and make himself invisible. Li says that he is a being from a higher level who has come to help humankind from the destruction it could face as the result of rampant evil.
> 
> Are you a paid Falun gong bot. They are rich. I see their papers everywhere available for free for anyone who wants them.
> 
> Hang on...so you also believe in conspiracy theories regarding Nazi like Uighur concentration camps and organ harvesting? These seems to be popular topics with epoch times. I used to pick up copies to improve my chinese back in the early 2000s in case you are wondering how I know about organ harvesting. I even attending a meeting at UCSD at one time thinking that it would bring me closer to chinese culture (late 90s) before I knew this organization was a cult.
> 
> Many of their conspiracy theories just do not pass the common sense test.


Great, so they let you get to wikipedia, and we agree it is mostly accurate.

Here is another fine wikipedia page:






						Great Chinese Famine - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Hope you can get to it.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> conspiracy theories regarding Nazi like Uighur concentration camps


Funny.  Guess "The Guardian" is a right wing conspiracy theory rage.  My elder brother has also done work on this and seen evidence himself.  But they probably won't let you access these videos.


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> Funny. Guess "The Guardian" is a right wing conspiracy theory rage. My elder brother has also done work on this and seen evidence himself. But they probably won't let you access these videos.


These conspiracies do not pass common sense test. What is the motive?

So what is the purpose of these Nazi like concentration camps? If they had wanted to do genocide cleaning, they could have done it decades ago. Why choose now? 

My commonsense tells me most likely many of these are job training camps plus a  few of these being camps for radical religious individuals or separatists. Job training camps are good as the government likes to get people to work to help build the economy and pay taxes. I have seen these camps in many countries. 

By conflating the two, it is very easy for a reporter to tell the story that  the harsh treatment one gets at a separatist camp is universal in all camps including the job training ones.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> These conspiracies do not pass common sense test. What is the motive?
> 
> So what is the purpose of these Nazi like concentration camps? If they had wanted to do genocide cleaning, they could have done it decades ago. Why choose now?
> 
> My commonsense tells me most likely many of these are job training camps plus a  few of these being camps for radical religious individuals or separatists. Job training camps are good as the government likes to get people to work to help build the economy and pay taxes. I have seen these camps in many countries.
> 
> By conflating the two, it is very easy for a reporter to tell the story that  the harsh treatment one gets at a separatist camp is universal in all camps including the job training ones.


Well, it's not like they are doing these camps for the Han Chinese...... 4 weeks to learn how to do a bed?  In the words of our Dear Leader, "Come on Man!"


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> These conspiracies do not pass common sense test. What is the motive?
> 
> So what is the purpose of these Nazi like concentration camps? If they had wanted to do genocide cleaning, they could have done it decades ago. Why choose now?
> 
> My commonsense tells me most likely many of these are job training camps plus a  few of these being camps for radical religious individuals or separatists. Job training camps are good as the government likes to get people to work to help build the economy and pay taxes. I have seen these camps in many countries.
> 
> By conflating the two, it is very easy for a reporter to tell the story that  the harsh treatment one gets at a separatist camp is universal in all camps including the job training ones.


The motive?  To reduce the risk of a religious separatist movement, because the rest of China does not want an internal Afghanistan.  

Been nice talking with you, Mr. Lam.  I hope you get a chance to vote for Pooh Bear’s successor some day.  If it happens, may you choose better than we did four years ago.


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> Been nice talking with you, Mr. Lam.


Wait..before you leave..you do agree Falun Gong is a cult right with crazy beliefs systems?


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> Wait..before you leave..you do agree Falun Gong is a cult right with crazy beliefs systems?


I live in a country where it isn’t a big deal to be part of a cult with a crazy belief system.  We have at least three states founded by people who, at the time, were seen as a cult with a crazy belief system.  Massachusetts, Rhose Island, and Utah.  

If I see a bunch of old people doing Tai Chi in the park, I don’t worry about why they are doing it.  I just move to the other end of the basketball court to give them room.  Live and let live.

So, maybe Falun Gong is like Scientology.  Maybe they are something else entirely.  It never occurred to me to worry about it.


----------



## warrior49

blam said:


> Any experts like to critic this analysis that it wasn't in Wuhan?


It's pretty common knowledge that China has restricted access to investigate:

Jan 5, 2021

World Health Organization Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus on Tuesday decried China's last-minute decision to block investigators who are researching the origin of the coronavirus.

"Today, we learned that Chinese officials have not yet finalised the necessary permissions for the team's arrivals in China," Tedros told reporters in a rare rebuke of Beijing. "I am very disappointed with this news, given that two members had already begun their journeys and others were not able to travel at the last minute," he said.

Michael Ryan, head of the WHO's emergencies program, called the delay "frustrating."

Ryan said he had made clear to senior Chinese officials "that the mission is a priority for WHO and the international team."

For the past few months, the United Nations body has been working to send a 10-person team of international experts to China to investigate the origins of the virus and how it crossed into humans.

The team, including epidemiologists and animal health specialists, wants to focus its research on Wuhan, the home of a wet market reported to be the origin of the human outbreak. However, China is particularly sensitive to the investigation, often pointing to unsubstantiated reports that it appeared in other countries first. It has also been wary of claims that it may have originated in a laboratory in the same city.


----------



## 46n2

dad4 said:


> I read both sides of the Epoch Times.  Excellent paper.  Tells you exactly what is going on in the mainland.
> 
> You realize how ridiculous is is for someone behind the firewall to tell me that my news is limited?  Even if I have to read the English translation of La Monde, at least I am allowed to read it.
> 
> Pick up Tombstone.  Then judge it.  As I said, it is very well documented.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962: Jisheng, Yang, Friedman, Edward, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Friedman, Edward, MacFarquhar, Roderick: 9780374533991: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962 [Jisheng, Yang, Friedman, Edward, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Mosher, Stacy, Jian, Guo, Friedman, Edward, MacFarquhar, Roderick] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (And let us know whether you can see the above link, or whether the firewall lets you see the link at all.)


Epoch times is where its at!


----------



## blam

warrior49 said:


> World Health Organization Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus on Tuesday decried China's last-minute decision to block investigators who are researching the origin of the coronavirus.


Didn't the visas got approved and it was just a delay? I'm not sure how this could be interpreted as "block". In the meeting the CDC met with WHO and decided on the date. Any dates decided at this meeting is of course subject to all other processes going fine. So the visa application goes to the immigration (a different department from the CDC and likely immigration officials not part of the WHO meeting) and the processing got delayed maybe due to incomplete visa application or needing more time to vet the applicants. Why should that be surprising?

I guess the next time I invite a foreign friend, and he goes to the US embassy for his visa application and if it wasn't approved, he's going to blame me for blocking his entry and that my invitation was a fake invitation?


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> If it was your intent to be clever you took the wrong tactic. A native speaker (or even a fluent speaker) will just assume you don't know what you are doing.


You probably didn't understand it because you don't simultaneously speak the 3 languages so you have a problem when the 3 languages are mixed in a sentence.

Do you also have a problem with mixed marriages like mixed sentences?

I found out yesterday that Falun Gong which sponsors Epoch times discourages mixed marriages because it believes that people of different races after they die will live on in other planets based on their races.

Conservatives will probably also hate mixing languages in a sentence as they adore to order and structure and mixing languages definitely breaks established order and structure. Maybe you are a conservative.


----------



## blam

dad4 said:


> Been nice talking with you, Mr. Lam. I hope you get a chance to vote for Pooh Bear’s successor some day. If it happens, may you choose better than we did four years ago.


You should give Trump more credit. In foreign policy, he's done great. He actually met with Kim Jong Un. I don't think Biden would ever do that. didn't start any new war. Just economic war and I'll take that anytime over real war.

Anyway, I really don't care if its Capitalism or Communism, weather its 442 or 343 or tiki taka or long ball. We should use whatever system as long as we win the game. The game here is social justice for all.  I'm practical, not ideological. Dogmatism will lead to failure, we must adapt. 

There is one common misconception in our current time. Communism actually encourages democracy. Hitler who is a fascists right wing so despised Communism (the left) precisely because Communism promoted democracy and thus concentrate power in the dead weight of the people. Its in his book Mein Kampf. Read it but don't turn into a right winger.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> You probably didn't understand it because you don't simultaneously speak the 3 languages so you have a problem when the 3 languages are mixed in a sentence.
> 
> Do you also have a problem with mixed marriages like mixed sentences?
> 
> I found out yesterday that Falun Gong which sponsors Epoch times discourages mixed marriages because it believes that people of different races after they die will live on in other planets based on their races.
> 
> Conservatives will probably also hate mixing languages in a sentence as they adore to order and structure and mixing languages definitely breaks established order and structure. Maybe you are a conservative.


I see your masters have you back on the clock.  Seriously, why do they have you on the off topic section of a soccer board in a 4th rate soccer country?  Your boss must like you to get away with that.

I saw at least 4 language (3 of which I speak) and poor misspellings in one of them.  If you were aiming for 3 that's even funnier.

Have you ever seen Shen Yun?  It's apparently a cultural phenomenon.


----------



## warrior49

"Communism actually encourages democracy"  Laughs in freedom


----------



## tjinaz

warrior49 said:


> "Communism actually encourages democracy"  Laughs in freedom


wow .. never really met a chinese bot before... this forum is awesome.  I laugh along with you.  I mean you hear about them and you know they exist but.. wow.  Now to figure out which wackadoodle ideology EOTL is a bot for and we can get the bot UN meetings going.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

tjinaz said:


> wow .. never really met a chinese bot before... this forum is awesome.  I laugh along with you.  I mean you hear about them and you know they exist but.. wow.  Now to figure out which wackadoodle ideology EOTL is a bot for and we can get the bot UN meetings going.


This has easily been the most entertaining forum on the site the past couple of days. EOTL one of many screen name personas (not just 2 or 3) from a broken person.


----------



## TOSDCI

blam said:


> These conspiracies do not pass common sense test. What is the motive?
> 
> So what is the purpose of these Nazi like concentration camps? If they had wanted to do genocide cleaning, they could have done it decades ago. Why choose now?
> 
> My commonsense tells me most likely many of these are job training camps plus a  few of these being camps for radical religious individuals or separatists. Job training camps are good as the government likes to get people to work to help build the economy and pay taxes. I have seen these camps in many countries.
> 
> By conflating the two, it is very easy for a reporter to tell the story that  the harsh treatment one gets at a separatist camp is universal in all camps including the job training ones.


Please tell me you are not 1. defending communism and 2. claiming that the Uighurs are actually receiving job training and not "re-education".  Come on man!  The motive for "re-education" is that they want to remove religion from China with the state taking it's place.  Very common tactic in communist countries.  It is starting now because Xi Jingping has started cracking down on Chinese dissenters.


----------



## TOSDCI

Grace T. said:


> I see your masters have you back on the clock.  Seriously, why do they have you on the off topic section of a soccer board in a 4th rate soccer country?  Your boss must like you to get away with that.
> 
> I saw at least 4 language (3 of which I speak) and poor misspellings in one of them.  If you were aiming for 3 that's even funnier.
> 
> Have you ever seen Shen Yun?  It's apparently a cultural phenomenon.


You are my hero, Grace T!


----------



## Grace T.

TOSDCI said:


> You are my hero, Grace T!


I think @dad4 was pretty awesome too.  Nice to be on the same side for a change.


----------



## blam

warrior49 said:


> "Communism actually encourages democracy"  Laughs in freedom


One needs to look no further for validation of this than to look at a man who spent his entire life fighting Communism - Adolf Hitler. Hitler, a far right Fascist  leader  gave his life uniting Europe against the Soviets. In his book, Mein Kampf, he explains why he hated Communism in chapter 2 :

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism repudiates the aristocratic principle of Nature and substitutes for it the eternal privilege of force and energy, numerical mass and its dead weight. Thus it denies the individual worth of the human personality, impugns the teaching that nationhood and race have a primary significance, and by doing this it takes away the very foundations of human existence and human civilization. If the Marxist teaching were to be accepted as the foundation of the life of the universe, it would lead to the disappearance of all order that is conceivable to the human mind. And thus the adoption of such a law would provoke chaos in the structure of the greatest organism that we know, with the result that the inhabitants of this earthly planet would finally disappear.

Should the Jew, with the aid of his Marxist creed, triumph over the people of this world, his Crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind, and this planet will once again follow its orbit through ether, without any human life on its surface, as it did millions of years ago.

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.


"


"numerical mass and its dead weight" is a clear reference to Communism principles of democracy, where one person one vote, no matter your race.


See...the USA being part of the protagonist of the cold war would of course structure its history classes to hide certain facts so that you do not see the world the way it was seen prior to the cold war.

You can get Hitler's book online but please, do not turn into a right wing after reading. Use it to understand why the right hates the left.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> One needs to look no further for validation of this than to look at a man who spent his entire life fighting Communism - Adolf Hitler. Hitler, a far right Fascist  leader  gave his life uniting Europe against the Soviets. In his book, Mein Kampf, he explains why he hated Communism in chapter 2 :
> 
> "The Jewish doctrine of Marxism repudiates the aristocratic principle of Nature and substitutes for it the eternal privilege of force and energy, numerical mass and its dead weight. Thus it denies the individual worth of the human personality, impugns the teaching that nationhood and race have a primary significance, and by doing this it takes away the very foundations of human existence and human civilization. If the Marxist teaching were to be accepted as the foundation of the life of the universe, it would lead to the disappearance of all order that is conceivable to the human mind. And thus the adoption of such a law would provoke chaos in the structure of the greatest organism that we know, with the result that the inhabitants of this earthly planet would finally disappear. "
> 
> 
> "numerical mass and its dead weight" is a clear reference to Communism principles of democracy, where one person one vote, no matter your race.
> 
> 
> See...the USA being part of the protagonist of the cold war would of course structure its history classes to hide certain facts so that you do not see the world the way it was seen prior to the cold war.
> 
> You can get Hitler's book online but please, do not turn into a right wing after reading. Use it to understand why the right hates the left.


 Marx is not all that popular here.  Look at the rulers who claim to follow him: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kim dynasty.  Every one of them created a   famine in which millions of people died.  Every one of them tossed millions of people in labor camps.

Pooh Bear only gets to praise Mao because Pooh Bear gets to rewrite the history books.  As soon as you get outside the 100 acre wood, Mao’s name is mud.  People know that his rule was a time of famine and government organized mob violence.


----------



## espola

blam said:


> One needs to look no further for validation of this than to look at a man who spent his entire life fighting Communism - Adolf Hitler. Hitler, a far right Fascist  leader  gave his life uniting Europe against the Soviets. In his book, Mein Kampf, he explains why he hated Communism in chapter 2 :
> 
> "The Jewish doctrine of Marxism repudiates the aristocratic principle of Nature and substitutes for it the eternal privilege of force and energy, numerical mass and its dead weight. Thus it denies the individual worth of the human personality, impugns the teaching that nationhood and race have a primary significance, and by doing this it takes away the very foundations of human existence and human civilization. If the Marxist teaching were to be accepted as the foundation of the life of the universe, it would lead to the disappearance of all order that is conceivable to the human mind. And thus the adoption of such a law would provoke chaos in the structure of the greatest organism that we know, with the result that the inhabitants of this earthly planet would finally disappear.
> 
> Should the Jew, with the aid of his Marxist creed, triumph over the people of this world, his Crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind, and this planet will once again follow its orbit through ether, without any human life on its surface, as it did millions of years ago.
> 
> And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> "numerical mass and its dead weight" is a clear reference to Communism principles of democracy, where one person one vote, no matter your race.
> 
> 
> See...the USA being part of the protagonist of the cold war would of course structure its history classes to hide certain facts so that you do not see the world the way it was seen prior to the cold war.
> 
> You can get Hitler's book online but please, do not turn into a right wing after reading. Use it to understand why the right hates the left.


Marxist theory is fundamentally democratic.  However, to the best of my knowledge, no state claiming to be a Marxist Communist democracy has lasted any significant amount of time before lapsing into an authoritarian dictatorship.


----------



## warrior49

"Hitler, a far right Fascist leader gave his life uniting Europe against the Soviets." You Sir, are crazy. That's a nice spin, but not how it went down. It's evident that China is lacking in world history classes.


----------



## blam

espola said:


> Marxist theory is fundamentally democratic. However, to the best of my knowledge, no state claiming to be a Marxist Communist democracy has lasted any significant amount of time before lapsing into an authoritarian dictatorship.


Thats true. in fact, one man who fought against fascism during the spanish civil war even wrote two books about it. A book about a farm, and another book regarding a year.

When Marx critiqued Capitalism, he started from Capitalism and had Germany in mind. However, the countries in the past were not capitalist. They were Agrarian. They tried to jump from Agrarian -> Communism while Marx in his book had called for Capitalism->Socialism->Communism.

The wealth from Capitalism is needed to fund Socialistic programs. According to Marx himself, Capitalism is a great machinery to generate wealth.  As Deng XiaoPeng puts it, the productive forces need to be there for Socialism to be successful:


What is socialism and what is Marxism? We were not quite clear about this in the past. Marxism attaches utmost importance to developing the productive forces. We have said that socialism is the primary stage of communism and that at the advanced stage the principle of from each according to his ability and to each according to his needs will be applied. This calls for highly developed productive forces and *an overwhelming abundance of material wealth.* Therefore, the fundamental task for the socialist stage is to develop the productive forces.   --Deng XiaoPeng


So even though I consider myself left, I am not against Capitalism per se.


----------



## blam

warrior49 said:


> "Hitler, a far right Fascist leader gave his life uniting Europe against the Soviets." You Sir, are crazy. That's a nice spin, but not how it went down. It's evident that China is lacking in world history classes.



Hitler would have called you too stupid and blind if you didn't realize that was what he was doing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Adolf_Hitler):

In 1939, Hitler told the Swiss Commissioner to the League of Nations Carl Burckhardt that everything he was undertaking was "directed against Russia" and that "if those in the West are too stupid or too blind to understand this, then I shall be forced to come to an understanding with the Russians to beat the West, and then, after its defeat, turn with all my concerted force against the Soviet Union".[121] When Hitler finally ordered the attack against the Soviet Union, it was the fulfillment of his ultimate goal and the most important campaign in his estimation, as it comprised a struggle of "the chosen Aryan people against Jewish Bolsheviks".[122] 


Btw, the quote I had earlier is from Mien Kampf, a book written by Adolf Hitler himself not a history book which shows Hitler's disgust at Communism. So don't blame any world history class.

Secondly, I am not from China. I grew up in a Non-Aligned Nation (countries that refused to be pulled into the bullshit cold war and is neither aligned with the West or the Communist bloc). I have only been to China once for a week vacation. Other times have only been stopovers and have been denied entry into China for not having a visa. 

I'm only responding to these stories because I clearly see a propaganda attack with stories that do not even pass the common sense test and treated as standard journalism.


----------



## warrior49

If my mindset is not in line with what Hitler believed, then I know I'm on the right track. You are definitely in China.


----------



## N00B

"[a]s Christ is the intermediary unto whom man unburdens all his divinity, all his religious bonds, so the state is the mediator unto which he transfers all his Godlessness, all his human liberty“

Hmmm.  Karl Marx’s words, not mine.


----------



## blam

N00B said:


> "[a]s Christ is the intermediary unto whom man unburdens all his divinity, all his religious bonds, so the state is the mediator unto which he transfers all his Godlessness, all his human liberty“
> 
> Hmmm.  Karl Marx’s words, not mine.


Ah! that must be his observation of how things are in the world at his time.


----------



## blam

warrior49 said:


> If my mindset is not in line with what Hitler believed, then I know I'm on the right track. You are definitely in China.


the first stage of grief is denial.


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> Have you ever seen Shen Yun? It's apparently a cultural phenomenon.


No, nunca visto. Pero, las bailarinas son guapas generalmente. No hay problema ver si tengo entrada gratis. Virgen Santisima, me voy a unir a Falun Gong si todos los miembros son tan guapas.


----------



## N00B

blam said:


> Ah! that must be his observation of how things are in the world at his time.


Maybe you need to read the words and construe the meaning.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> No, nunca visto. Pero, las bailarinas son guapas generalmente. No hay problema ver si tengo entrada gratis. Virgen Santisima, me voy a unir a Falun Gong si todos los miembros son tan guapas.


A paid authoritarian bot is accusing someone else of using eye candy?

Almost every authoritarian regime uses hot babes to help the masses ignore the thugs.  The only exceptions are regimes which ban human images for religious reasons.  Then they use religion to help the masses ignore the thugs.


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> No, nunca visto. Pero, las bailarinas son guapas generalmente. No hay problema ver si tengo entrada gratis. Virgen Santisima, me voy a unir a Falun Gong si todos los miembros son tan guapas.


not a native speaker or even ssl speaker. There are some grammar errors here.  Though it might be aided by machine translator or a buddy, if his own work indicates college level study as a secondary language


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> not a native speaker or even ssl speaker. There are some grammar errors here. Though it might be aided by machine translator or a buddy, if his own work indicates college level study as a secondary language


又来了。 你一定是 grammar 京察 还是 conservative 。 及本， 我是要谈  covi d， 看 来， 你对我 更有 兴趣。


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> 又来了。 你一定是 grammar 京察 还是 conservative 。 及本， 我是要谈  covi d， 看 来， 你对我 更有 兴趣。


 Not so much.  Grace had it months ago and I'm pretty solidly in the mask and distance camp.

Any mental deficiencies on my part are genuine, not artifacts of a fever.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Not so much.  Grace had it months ago and I'm pretty solidly in the mask and distance camp.
> 
> Any mental deficiencies on my part are genuine, not artifacts of a fever.


Did we hit a little too close to home?


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Did we hit a little too close to home?


He's worked hard on his languages.  Cut him some slack.  I couldn't go on some Chinese server and joke with people.  I can't even properly type.

Making fun of Pooh Bear is different.  Anyone who sends fighter jets to Susan in the middle of the genocide deserves every insult he gets.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> He's worked hard on his languages.  Cut him some slack.  I couldn't go on some Chinese server and joke with people.  I can't even properly type.
> 
> Making fun of Pooh Bear is different.  Anyone who sends fighter jets to Susan in the middle of the genocide deserves every insult he gets.


If I had a cyrillic keyboard I might be able to do that on a Russian one, but with difficulty and they'd totally know I'm a foreigner.  I in fact do on the Spanish ones....Spanish twitter is a fun even more insane place than English twitter.  His Spanish is most definitely better than my French, but his Spanish is also most definitely not as strong as his English.  Still wonder why they let him hang out here....maybe it's a check the box thing like my son's independent PE study (no one's really looking very hard at what he's doing, so long as he can say he's doing something).

Agree on the Pooh.  Winnie the Pooh.  Winnie the Pooh.  Chubby little cubby all stuffed with fluff.  Winnie the Pooh.  Willy, nilly, silly old bear.


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> Did we hit a little too close to home?


¡Eh!! ¿No hay problema con mi chino? ¿O no entiende chino? Antes, me dijo sabe tres idiomas de los cuatros...pienso usted sabe chino...que paso.. puede responder en cualquier idiomas? ¿Donde esta la policia gramatica? Para mi, no importa la gramatica, simplemente feliz si puedo entender las peliculas y hablar con las personas.

very weird because i have never attended a chinese language school and you seem to not have given me a ticket for violating grammar rules in chinese.


----------



## dad4

blam said:


> ¡Eh!! ¿No hay problema con mi chino? ¿O no entiende chino? Antes, me dijo sabe tres idiomas de los cuatros...pienso usted sabe chino...que paso.. puede responder en cualquier idiomas? ¿Donde esta la policia gramatica? Para mi, no importa la gramatica, simplemente feliz si puedo entender las peliculas y hablar con las personas.
> 
> very weird because i have never attended a chinese language school and you seem to not have given me a ticket for violating grammar rules in chinese.


Solo peliculas?  Porque no ves las telenovelas?


----------



## Grace T.

blam said:


> ¡Eh!! ¿No hay problema con mi chino? ¿O no entiende chino? Antes, me dijo sabe tres idiomas de los cuatros...pienso usted sabe chino...que paso.. puede responder en cualquier idiomas? ¿Donde esta la policia gramatica? Para mi, no importa la gramatica, simplemente feliz si puedo entender las peliculas y hablar con las personas.
> 
> very weird because i have never attended a chinese language school and you seem to not have given me a ticket for violating grammar rules in chinese.


Oh I never claimed to have learned chinese (that's dad.4).  My languages are Russian, Spanish, French, English (though I understand a little [very little] Catalan, Portuguese, Italian, Japanese, Ukrainian, and a tiny bit of Berlitz level German).  I gave you a ticket for violating the Spanish grammar rules....you spoke (and still do) like a foreigner would who has taken at least some college level speech (unless you are cribbing from a friend) though your spanish is very good for a foreigner.  Much like my Russian, though, any native speaker would be able to tell you are a foreigner.  From the romance languages it was hard because of the misspellings which ones you were trying to use (and I don't know esperanto or Romanian) but there were attempts at some Spanish ("cuenta") and French ("vaine").  If you didn't intend those languages, it's even funnier.

And I agree with dad...if you aren't watching the telenovelas (which are ubiquitous) for films (which are not, and tend to run bad except for the occasional one) then you aren't really into Latin culture, though it may be because of your limited access given where you reside.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Oh I never claimed to have learned chinese (that's dad.4).  My languages are Russian, Spanish, French, English (though I understand a little [very little] Catalan, Portuguese, Italian, Japanese, Ukrainian, and a tiny bit of Berlitz level German).  I gave you a ticket for violating the Spanish grammar rules....you spoke (and still do) like a foreigner would who has taken at least some college level speech (unless you are cribbing from a friend) though your spanish is very good for a foreigner.  Much like my Russian, though, any native speaker would be able to tell you are a foreigner.  From the romance languages it was hard because of the misspellings which ones you were trying to use (and I don't know esperanto or Romanian) but there were attempts at some Spanish ("cuenta") and French ("vaine").  If you didn't intend those languages, it's even funnier.
> 
> And I agree with dad...if you aren't watching the telenovelas (which are ubiquitous) for films (which are not, and tend to run bad except for the occasional one) then you aren't really into Latin culture, though it may be because of your limited access given where you reside.


For example: while "Antes, me dijo" is perfectly acceptable to be understood, it should be, "Antes, me dijiste [usted if formal, otherwise omit if colloquial] que" and instead of "tres idiomas de los cuatro" "tres de los cuatro idiomas" though I'd probably slang it to "tres de cuart lenguas" if speaking colloquially


----------



## blam

Grace T. said:


> For example: while "Antes, me dijo" is perfectly acceptable to be understood, it should be, "Antes, me dijiste [usted if formal, otherwise omit if colloquial] que" and instead of "tres idiomas de los cuatro" "tres de los cuatro idiomas" though I'd probably slang it to "tres de cuart lenguas" if speaking colloquially



Ah! Thank you! I always like to accept constructive criticism. Let me try to practice this now:

"antes, me dijo que no se puede confiar en las noticias de falun gong. falun gong son noticias falsos, noticias propagandas "
(Before, you told me that one cannot believe in news from falun Gong. Falun gong are fake news, propaganda news)

Did I get the grammar right this time?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

blam said:


> Any experts like to critic this analysis that it wasn't in Wuhan?


Source is irrelevant.  The U.S. response to data and Science has been flawed from day 1.


----------

