# Tournament Point System



## etc1217 (Aug 22, 2016)

I just have a gripe….

My DD’s team played an OC tournament this weekend and maybe some of your kids played in it as well. Anyway, when does a losing team get points for losing…EVER???  Since there wasn’t a championship game, the winner was based on points.  My DD’s team had the stats (W-D-L) of 3-1-0, total pts of 30 (GF 15 – GA 4) and the team that “won” the championship title had stats of 3-0-1, total pts 31 (GF14 – GA 5) and my DD’s team came in second. The team won because they received their goals point in the game they lost to my DD’s team which they beat them in head-to-head competition (4-2).  So how is that fair!!!  I have never been to a tournament where a losing team gets any points. You lose you get “0” or at least that is how I was brought up.  So now we award kids for losing?? Maybe that’s why this generation feels so "entitled" because basically we give them “wins” even though they don’t deserve it…

Am I wrong to feel this way, if so, then I will jump off my soap box...but then again this is youth soccer and nothing ever makes sense…


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## soccerchaffeur (Aug 22, 2016)

Did your team not receive goal points in the game you lost?  Did the team that 'won' the tournament not beat the team you 'lost' to?


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## midreams (Aug 22, 2016)

Ive actually been to several tournaments in which the losing team still receives points for goals scored. That seems to be more and more common. I dont think its an entitlement thing, or giving them wins for losing. Im guessing that it gives more of a variation of total points per team, so you dont end up with a bunch of ties at the end. In your case, I can see how that sucked. But I think its a fairly common practice.


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## timbuck (Aug 22, 2016)

There seems to be a trend this year away from having "Championship Games" between the top 2 teams. 
By doing this, tournaments are guaranteeing all teams are playing 4 games.  
And then the team with the most points is deemed the winner. 
If using the 10 point system, a team will get 1 point for each goal scored (max of 3) whether they win, lose or draw. 
You get 6 points for a win. 3 points for a tie. Then add in the points for goals.  And you get 1 point if it's a shutout. 

For tournaments that give everyone 4 games, the 10 point system might not be the best to use. 
With a 3 point system, you get 3 points for a win, 1 for a tie and 0 for a loss.  Then they use tiebreakers if there are equal points.  Usually it goes: head-to-head, goal differential, least goals allowed, most goals scored and if it's still a tie they might do PKs or a coin flip. 

The 10 point system was designed to try and provide some sort of seperation between teams with the same record. But there's a rare occasion when it backfires a bit. 
But- those are the rules and are usually stated on the tournament website. 

There is a bit of "tournament math" that goes on.  If a team is close, they usually know the various scenarios that need to play out.  

I heard a funny comment from a coach when his team was asking about all of the different scenarios. He said "Don't worry about the math. Just win. Math is for losers". 

Congrats on the good run at your tournament.  Regardless of the trophy, your team should feel great about their success on the field.


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## socalkdg (Aug 22, 2016)

You always get points for your goals.   Lose 3-1, you get 1 point.   Small and big tourneys always the same.  Recent Surf Cup prime example.


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## outside! (Aug 22, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> I just have a gripe….
> 
> My DD’s team played an OC tournament this weekend and maybe some of your kids played in it as well. Anyway, when does a losing team get points for losing…EVER???  Since there wasn’t a championship game, the winner was based on points.  My DD’s team had the stats (W-D-L) of 3-1-0, total pts of 30 (GF 15 – GA 4) and the team that “won” the championship title had stats of 3-0-1, total pts 31 (GF14 – GA 5) and my DD’s team came in second. The team won because they received their goals point in the game they lost to my DD’s team which they beat them in head-to-head competition (4-2).  So how is that fair!!!  I have never been to a tournament where a losing team gets any points. You lose you get “0” or at least that is how I was brought up.  So now we award kids for losing?? Maybe that’s why this generation feels so "entitled" because basically we give them “wins” even though they don’t deserve it…
> 
> Am I wrong to feel this way, if so, then I will jump off my soap box...but then again this is youth soccer and nothing ever makes sense…


I would love to see the standings. Please post a link.


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## TangoCity (Aug 22, 2016)

There are different scoring systems (10 point v 3 point) that different tournaments use.  First tie-breaker should be head to head if it is a pool where everyone plays each other.  The two point systems pretty much evens out due to the tie-breakers that each uses.  Could you provide a link or tell us which tournament and flight so we can investigate further?

As for why some tournaments have championship games and some are decided solely on points, it depends on how many teams are accepted into the tournament/flight.  There will be different playoff methods depending on number of teams.  They are all pretty standard.


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## socalkdg (Aug 22, 2016)

Quick check shows it must be this.   Wow, I think I'm heading towards stalking status.  That or don't really want to work yet.  

http://www.t7sports.com:8080/2005/S174648.HTM


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## outside! (Aug 22, 2016)

The first place team had two shut-out wins whereas the 2nd place team only had a shut-out tie.


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## GunninGopher (Aug 22, 2016)

Did you coach get sent off or do you have a red card? While the table shows 30, the traditional 10 point scoring for Strikers SB Blk (Salazar) would be:

9  (6 for win plus 3 for goals)
9  (6 for win plus 3 for goals)
9  (6 for win plus 3 for goals)
4 (3 for tie plus 1 for shutout)
31 Total

Absent any deductions, you would therefore tie them in points and be awarded the championship for the head to head victory. Maybe the tie was worth only 2 points. If you lost a point due to misconduct, oh well. Also, if your team is interested in maximizing tournament points, once you get your 3 points, you should work to preserve the shutout if you have it. The extra goals in the 4, 5 and 6 goal games didn't help and giving up goals hurt.


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## timbuck (Aug 22, 2016)

From the rules:
http://www.ocpremierclassic.com/page/show/946075-rules

1 shut-out point will be awarded to the winning team for achieving a shut out.  No shut-out bonus point will be awarded for a 0-0 tie or for a game won by forfeit.
That has not been a common rule.  Usually a shutout tie is worth 4 points (3 for the tie and 1 for the shutout)


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## GunninGopher (Aug 22, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> Am I wrong to feel this way, if so, then I will jump off my soap box...but then again this is youth soccer and nothing ever makes sense…


The 10 point system is fairly common from what I've seen and is probably used in about 1/2 of the youth tournaments. I like it because it allows teams an opportunity to take something out of a game in a loss and usually avoids ties in the standings. I also like when tournaments round robin the games in groups of 5 or 6 teams.


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## espola (Aug 22, 2016)

It's fair to all if the tournament posts their standings points rules in advance and applies them equally to all teams.


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## etc1217 (Aug 22, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Quick check shows it must be this. Wow, I think I'm heading towards stalking status. That or don't really want to work yet.
> 
> http://www.t7sports.com:8080/2005/S174648.HTM


Yes, this was the tournament...I just have to say... I haven't been to a tournament where points were given out to the losing team, this is the first but if it is the new trend so be it.  I get the math and all that but it sucks to know that my DD's team had the better stats out of the tournament and basically lost.  I get the other team has two shut-out but since when does a lose beat out a tie in any standings...oh well,

They did play well beating the teams by 4 or more goals and just had an off game tying their last game which cost them the Championship title.  I'll chalk it up to another opportunity to better themselves, overall, it's a new team and they are looking stronger each time they are on the pitch.


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## CopaMundial (Aug 22, 2016)

http://www.eyouthsportsusa.com/cgi-win/esked.exe?tS504369

Am I missing something here? I did the math 5 times and I still come up with 29 points based on the standard 10 pt system, which it seems the tourney was running. You only max out at 10 pts per game if you win by 3+ and get a shutout, correct?

How did they get 31? Is there a new point system starting?


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## etc1217 (Aug 22, 2016)

CopaMundial said:


> How did they get 31? Is there a new point system starting?


They received two points for the goals in the game they lost. That's how they got 31 points...again, that's my frustration...why does anyone team get points for losing a game, it should be "0" but apparently there is a new scoring system where even the losing team gets their goal points as part of the tournament's scoring system.


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## PaytoplayinLancaster? (Aug 22, 2016)

Didn't anybody learn...  Once you get a 3-0 lead you need to throw everyone in your end to defend the shutout.  Just don't tell anyone about it so you don't get called a match fixer.


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## gauchosean (Aug 22, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> Yes, this was the tournament...I just have to say... I haven't been to a tournament where points were given out to the losing team, this is the first but if it is the new trend so be it.  I get the math and all that but it sucks to know that my DD's team had the better stats out of the tournament and basically lost.  I get the other team has two shut-out but since when does a lose beat out a tie in any standings...oh well,
> 
> They did play well beating the teams by 4 or more goals and just had an off game tying their last game which cost them the Championship title.  I'll chalk it up to another opportunity to better themselves, overall, it's a new team and they are looking stronger each time they are on the pitch.


You must be new to soccer, the 10 point scoring system has been around forever and is a very common. Get used to if you plan to continue participating in tournaments. Any summer tournament that you are guaranteed to play 4 games win, lose or draw is a good deal. 

Just about every system screws someone at some point that is how they come up with new systems. A DOC feels they were given a raw deal at a tournament and then changes their tournament so that if the same scenario would happen their team would win. And since there is no rule from US Soccer dictating tournament rules the coach and manager should always read the rules before they enter and understand what it takes to win or advance.


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## etc1217 (Aug 22, 2016)

Sad part is that my DD's team came back from a 0-2 deficient to win 4-2 against that "Champion" team.


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## etc1217 (Aug 22, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> You must be new to soccer, the 10 point scoring system has been around forever and is a very common. Get used to if you plan to continue participating in tournaments. Any summer tournament that you are guaranteed to play 4 games win, lose or draw is a good deal.


Unfortunately, I'm not new to soccer but this is the first time my DD has played a tournament where they give goal points to the losing team...or at least to my recollection...(getting old sucks) and no addition points for a 0-0 tie shutout.  Usually it's 4 points for a 0-0 tie shutout but this tournament only gave 3 points.

Again, no regulations on how scoring is done across the board for any of the tournaments so it's a free for all for the DOC's to do what they like.


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## socalkdg (Aug 22, 2016)

We just lost 1-0, 2-0, and 1-0, all games tied at half.   Zero points.  I'd be willing to trade places with you.


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## GunninGopher (Aug 22, 2016)

CopaMundial said:


> How did they get 31? Is there a new point system starting?





etc1217 said:


> They received two points for the goals in the game they lost.





CopaMundial said:


> WOW!!!  I don't like that system at all.


Every 10 point tournament I've been around over the last 5 years I've been involved in youth soccer, as a parent, manager and referee, awards up to 3 points per goal scored _for both the winning and losing team_. It has probably been about 25 of them from AYSO rec tournaments to higher level competitive. The only deviations I recall seeing are where one tournament only awarded 2 points for a tie and now this one, which didn't award the shutout point if it was a tie.

The 3 point system works well when you have a lot of games, but when you are only looking at 3 or 4 games, the 10 point system is superior, in my opinion, because you usually don't end group play with a tie in points. It also discourages excessive scoring by a dominant team and rewards continuing effort in a loss. I think other posts that associate this with the "good job" or "everyone's a winner" mentality are way over blown. It is quite narrow minded to assert that because a team loses, there is nothing that should be gained.


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## espola (Aug 22, 2016)

Since everyone is whining about how unfair tournament scoring is, I should take this opportunity to vent about the tournaments where my kids' teams didn't lose a game (1 win and 2 ties once, 3 ties once) but did not get a medal or advance to the next round.

I feel much better now.  I will hold back my rant on how unfair the 3-point win is in short tournaments.


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## meatsweats (Aug 22, 2016)

GunninGopher said:


> Every 10 point tournament I've been around over the last 5 years I've been involved in youth soccer, as a parent, manager and referee, awards up to 3 points per goal scored _for both the winning and losing team_. It has probably been about 25 of them from AYSO rec tournaments to higher level competitive. The only deviations I recall seeing are where one tournament only awarded 2 points for a tie and now this one, which didn't award the shutout point if it was a tie.
> 
> The 3 point system works well when you have a lot of games, but when you are only looking at 3 or 4 games, the 10 point system is superior, in my opinion, because you usually don't end group play with a tie in points. It also discourages excessive scoring by a dominant team and rewards continuing effort in a loss. I think other posts that associate this with the "good job" or "everyone's a winner" mentality are way over blown. It is quite narrow minded to assert that because a team loses, there is nothing that should be gained.


Note: Edited. I meant to prove that the 10 pt system is actually not "common" or superior.

"The 10 pt system described in this tournament is NOT typical of the common system (3 point for a win). TYPICALLY, you do NOT get any points if you lose.  Narrow minded or not, rules of the game have been rules of the game for a long time. There is no major soccer entity in the world that awards losses (FIFA, UEFA, etc.)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_points_for_a_win

What you deem superior, is exactly that...your opinion!


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## texanincali (Aug 22, 2016)

meatsweats said:


> The 10 pt system described in this tournament is NOT typical of the common 10pt system (AKA 3 point for a win). TYPICALLY, you do NOT get any points if you lose.  Narrow minded or not, rules of the game have been rules of the game for a long time. There is no major soccer entity in the world that awards losses (FIFA, UEFA, etc.).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_points_for_a_win
> 
> What you deem superior, is exactly that...your opinion!


I am sorry, but every 10 point scoring system that I have been involved in over the past 25 years awards points for scoring goals, up to 3, for both winning and losing teams.  Where this tournament differs is that most will award that extra point for the shut-out in the 0-0 draw.

I have long complained about the 10 point scoring system as we are really the only country that uses it.  My complaint is exactly what happened in this scenario.  While it isn't common a team that loses yet manages to score 3 goals gets close to the same amount of points for a team that draws 0-0 or 1-1. 

I saw a tournament not long ago that a team with 2 wins and 2 losses were declared champions over a team with 3 wins and 1 loss.

Team A -
Won 4-0 (10 points) - Won 3-0 (10 points) - Lost 4-3 (3 points) and 5-3 (3 points) = Total of 26 points

Team B -
Won 2-1 (8 points) - Won 1-0 (8 points) - Won 2-1 (8 points) - Lost 1-0 (0 points) = Total of 24 points

The 10 point system is very "American" and was implemented many, many years ago - can tournaments please just stick with the system of 3-1-0?  It ensures that no team advances over another team without a better record.  Winning a match should carry more importance than the number of goals scored.


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## GunninGopher (Aug 22, 2016)

meatsweats said:


> The 10 pt system described in this tournament is NOT typical of the common 10pt system (AKA 3 point for a win).


Ok, so as I read this, you are saying that the typical 10 point system is also known as the 3 point for a win? Your link would seem to be an attempt support that absurd claim.

Thanks for reassuring me that my opinion is my opinion, but you must have posted in haste, because you are completely missing the point. But I'm just now realizing that you don't care.

Dang, there I went and took the bait. I am usually good at ignoring posters that are put up just to make one person feel good about themselves (I don't know exactly what this person gets out of it actually) and the other person seem to be incorrect. Trolls are such a good, descriptive name for person's such as this.


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## clueless parent (Aug 22, 2016)

Kid played in a tournament with 6 teams, 2 brackets.  Each bracket played the three teams in the other bracket.  Bracket A had a team (Super Team)  that was levels above the other teams.  Placement in Bracket A ensured that the two other Bracket A teams did not have to face Super Team. 

Super Team got wildcard 1 and the two A bracket teams finished 2nd (And got Wildcard 2 - Lucky Team) and 3rd.

Child's team actually beat Lucky Team. The tournament seeding advantaged Lucky Team.  My kid got a life's not fair lesson.


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## meatsweats (Aug 22, 2016)

GunninGopher said:


> Ok, so as I read this, you are saying that the typical 10 point system is also known as the 3 point for a win? Your link would seem to be an attempt support that absurd claim.
> 
> Thanks for reassuring me that my opinion is my opinion, but you must have posted in haste, because you are completely missing the point. But I'm just now realizing that you don't care.
> 
> Dang, there I went and took the bait. I am usually good at ignoring posters that are put up just to make one person feel good about themselves (I don't know exactly what this person gets out of it actually) and the other person seem to be incorrect. Trolls are such a good, descriptive name for person's such as this.


I'm ok to admit when I'm wrong or reply in haste. Yes, the 10 pt system is used exclusively in the US and I do see now that it actually does award losers. I didn't mean to equate the system with the common 3pt for a win, just to prove that it's not typical and that losses are not awarded points in any other system in the world. I'm with TexaninCali, just stick with the 3 pt system! 

Guess I never paid much attention to the flawed system of the youth tournament scene. However you spin it, it's pretty unfair that a team that loses, moves on over a team that draws. Just my humble troll opinion.

And btw, lighten up dude....maybe I'll share some bacon with you. Bacon good!


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## timbuck (Aug 22, 2016)

We play tournaments. They are fun.
But they really are pretty stupid.  3,4,5 games over a 24-48 hour period of time is silly.
Sticking kids on burning turf fields in the hot summer sun for multiple games is borderline child abuse.
Teams that sandbag to win a trophy is sad.  If you want to work on "development" schedule friendlies.
Chasing points for goals, ties, shutouts - Save that for the World Cup.


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## zebrafish (Aug 22, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> We just lost 1-0, 2-0, and 1-0, all games tied at half.   Zero points.  I'd be willing to trade places with you.


L 10-0
L 4-2
L 8-0

I'll trade places with you and you


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## Eusebio (Aug 22, 2016)

I can't recall where my kids have said, "Ugh..we have a tournament this weekend? Can we skip it?"

Tournaments are probably not best for development but it's been my experience that most kids enjoy them win or lose. It actually is their chance to have a "World Cup" moment and play games that have some intensity and passion behind it with a chance to get a medal/trophy or at least a tournament pin. Win or lose most kids enjoy playing and goofing around/destroying the hotel (for travel tournaments).

It's usually the parents who get bent out of shape easily. For the kids it's typically only a negative experience if:
1). The coach berates them for losing.
2). Their mom/dad berates them for losing

That's pretty much it. Any other problems most kids blow off after 30 minutes and some ice cream or pizza.

Sure playing on hot turf fields at noon isn't ideal but as long as there are water breaks and the coach subs frequently, they'll be okay. I played in some pretty extreme weather on the East coast when I was a kid and we survived. Kids these days need to spend way more time outdoors anyway.

That said, I have no love for poorly staffed, poorly run tournaments, which feel like quick money grabs. I remember a few years ago, my daughter did two back-to-back tournaments in the month of August I believe, winning both. The first tournament, there wasn't even 2nd place medals and the first place medals were dropped on top of a water cooler by a 18 year-old field marshal before she left for her own game. Whereas the second tournament we played had the local city mayor speak at the trophy presentation and was just far better organized. As mentioned above, the kids themselves were fine with both tournaments, but us parents are also the customer since we are the ones paying our hard earned money and time for these tournaments so our overall satisfaction should be a factor as well. I'm not going to be happy about paying $100 for a cardboard box that has a tournament sticker on it regardless if my kids like the box. That's a scam.

I think it's disgusting when parents are calling out or bashing kids (either from the other team or their own team) in tournaments. Those parents have lost all perspective. But if parents want to complain about the tournament organizers, the rules or the overall value they're getting, I say rant on. It's your money, you have the right to complain. It often feels like parents don't direct their frustrations toward the right things, yelling at the kids or the other team but ignoring (or staying quiet about) the fundamental problems so clubs keep getting away with the same things.


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## socalkdg (Aug 22, 2016)

zebrafish said:


> L 10-0
> L 4-2
> L 8-0
> 
> I'll trade places with you and you


I see a match in our future.


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## Laced (Aug 23, 2016)

I don't see why it's even an issue various point systems are flawed in different ways. Some encourage offense while others reward defense. They all have their own merits and flaws. No system is perfect and satisfies everyone. After decades of debate and numerous playoff models, even big money college football hasn't come up with a perfect system to determine national champions. Can you expect a perfect point system for youth soccer tournaments? At the end of the day, if your team wins outright, you advance. Plus, tournament point system has very little bearing on your kids' long term development.


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## espola (Aug 23, 2016)

Laced said:


> I don't see why it's even an issue various point systems are flawed in different ways. Some encourage offense while others reward defense. They all have their own merits and flaws. No system is perfect and satisfies everyone. After decades of debate and numerous playoff models, even big money college football hasn't come up with a perfect system to determine national champions. Can you expect a perfect point system for youth soccer tournaments? At the end of the day, if your team wins outright, you advance. Plus, tournament point system has very little bearing on your kids' long term development.


A perfect system would measure just game results, with a win worth a certain amount, a tie half that amount for both teams, and a loss worth nothing (2-1-0 or 6-3-0).  That pure system allows calculation of a WLT percentage that is fair among a large number of teams and a large number of games, even if not all teams play the same number of games.  However, in a short series of games such as happens in a weekend tournament, there would be a lot of ties in the standings and thus the need for a lot of tie-breaker rules.

The 6-3-0 10-point system (bonus point for goals up to 3 per game, bonus point for shutout) has been fairly common over the last few years in soccer tournaments, derived from the NASL scoring system that first appeared North America in the 60s.  NASL included the bonus points for goals scored up to 3, but not the bonus point for a shutout.  A bonus point added for shutout wins (and sometimes for shutout ties), and points deducted for red cards, is the most common system seen around here in youth soccer tournaments.  This sytem has the advantage for tournament organizers in that it rolls most of the tiebreakers into the standings points.  One complication of that system is what to do about forfeit wins - should they be scored as 1-0?  3-0? award the shutout point or not? A forfeit win could earn anything from 6 to 10 points.

The ancient 2-1-0 system has pretty much disappeared from soccer tournaments, replaced by the 3-1-0 system in imitation of the 3-point win rule first seen in English professional leagues in the early 80s.  That bonus point for a win is fair if all teams play the same number of games, but requires some clumsy adaptations when not, such as the average-points-per-game used in Cal South State Cup when selecting wild card teams across groups who have played different numbers of games.  The 3-point win supposedly encouraged more aggressive offense and thus more scoring, which is usually meaningless in a 2- or 3-day youth tournament.  I have also seen a hybrid system something like the classic 10-point system, except that a tie is only worth 2 points, thus preserving the ratio between wins and ties as in the three-point-win rule.

No matter what the system, there will still be need of tiebreaker rules, for which there are so many variations that it would be worth its own thread.

An interesting website with history of scoring systems --  http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/scoring-systems.html


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## mommato2girls (Aug 23, 2016)

Tournaments and the point system is so bizarre. We played a tournament in Tahoe where we came in 3rd even though we won 2 and tied one. They didn't get to play in the championship bc the 2nd place team, even though they lost a game had one more goal for. That didn't seem right to me but honestly the kids didn't really care and had fun playing at the lake for the rest of Sunday. I think like a lot to do with parenting the bigger issue parents make of it, the more the kids are bothered or feel wronged.


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