# A good article about Coaches and Parents here in America



## Multi Sport (Feb 19, 2019)

I read this today and thought how many of my kids coaches were like this. Thankfully they had some good ones that did not feel compelled to "joystick" the team.

https://www.stack.com/a/what-is-joysticking-the-coaching-tactic-killing-youth-sports


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## electrichead72 (Feb 19, 2019)

I think that there might/should be a middle ground here.

When the kids are young, they don't know what to do. They need some direction from the sideline. Perhaps not the coach yelling their every move, but some direction on how/what they should be doing. I see kids that either don't track back or push forward unless the coach tells them to do it, they are sometimes just standing there or not really getting into the game.

Too much of this is a bad thing, and the coach needs to reign this in as the player gets older. The player should have learned what they need to be doing without the coach yelling at them. The coach can correct the problems they see at the half or by subbing a player out for a few minutes.

The other sideline, where the parents sit, is a different story. You have eleven players out there and each of their parents is trying to yell directions to them, it's a mess. At most I tell my kids that they need to hustle out there, but these parents are telling them everything they are doing.

The best are the calls for them to "shoot it" from 20 or 30 yards out or to just "boot it" up. I hear this all of the time from my youngest on a '06 team to my oldest on a '01 and high school team.


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## watfly (Feb 19, 2019)

Couldn't agree more with the article, its the plague of youth soccer (well next to clubs and coaches lying).  I've spoken to parents that have said they only think their coach is OK because they don't say much during the game, I say that's "awesome" and chuckle.   My personal opinion is that coaches should only give instruction when the ball is not moving.  Coaches have plenty of time to coach during the week, let the kids play on the weekend.

Here is another good article on overcoaching that talks about the difference between "setup" sports like football and baseball as compared to soccer which is a player decision making sport.  https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.com/portals/6082/docs/coachpacket/over coaching.pdf


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## Grace T. (Feb 19, 2019)

The new licensing courses are putting an emphasis on this, at least for the D and higher.  Have heard it now from 2 people who just went through it.  Coaches shouldn't be yelling at players instructions during the game...instead pulling them off to sub or during the half.

The problem of course is that since there's no continuing education requirement this will only gradually trickle into the system.  The other problem is because of a variety of reasons, the system is very short sighted...it cares about the wins this season and not what the player will be like in high school.  The coach, team, and players are all judged by their performance on a season, and not by what they'll look like 5-10 years down the line.


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## Calisoccer11 (Feb 19, 2019)

The other problem is the turnover of players.  It is not often that a team will have a core set of players that last for more than 2 or 3 seasons.  So you always introducing new players that may play a different style of soccer and it's always a challenge for everyone to be on the same page- so to speak.  I think a good coach is one who gives direction during a game and most importantly, corrects the mistakes he sees during practice.


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## Paul Spacey (Feb 19, 2019)

Coaches who joystick players either don't understand the game (often due to a lack of playing experience) or they simply don't understand how to coach and influence young athletes (mention the words 'athlete centered' and they'll reply, "athlete what?!")

If the coach doesn't understand the game AND doesn't understand how to coach young athletes (we all come across coaches in this bracket), then their players aren't going to get much in the way of 'development', on or off the field.

Most of us probably want more practice time with our players but regardless of how much time you have for practice, that is when you should do your talking. During the game, while the ball is moving, is not the time. Why? Because you're forcing movements and decisions upon players and this doesn't help them to learn. The odd comment like, "come on, track back and help us defend" is an ok reminder IMO but actively trying to make decisions for players (especially while in possession) is a big no-no. You can talk at half-time or while a player is out as a sub if you have something important to say that they will learn from. Basically though, if you cannot get your message across during practice, you might want to review your approach and the way you coach.

The confusion with other American sports (which are heavily coach-led and influenced) definitely contributes towards many soccer coaches doing things in a way which doesn't best serve the players. 

I watched a bunch of High School and Middle School games in the past few months and have to say that generally speaking, parents are even worse than for club soccer in the way they act and the things they come out with. I was amazed at how many dentists and real estate agents were suddenly expert referees, commentators, players AND coaches all-in-one!


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## timbuck (Feb 19, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> The new licensing courses are putting an emphasis on this, at least for the D and higher.  Have heard it now from 2 people who just went through it.  Coaches shouldn't be yelling at players instructions during the game...instead pulling them off to sub or during the half.
> 
> The problem of course is that since there's no continuing education requirement this will only gradually trickle into the system.  The other problem is because of a variety of reasons, the system is very short sighted...it cares about the wins this season and not what the player will be like in high school.  The coach, team, and players are all judged by their performance on a season, and not by what they'll look like 5-10 years down the line.


The license may put an emphasis on it, but clubs are still employing coaches that are nightmares.


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## Denied (Feb 19, 2019)

My kid was out for a year, injury. When he returned I wanted to find a coach who didn't yell all game and make the kids nervous and afraid to make a mistake. The coach he ended up with, is what I hope will be, the new generation of coaches. The guy is only about 24, played in college, still plays in an adult league but more importantly starts every practice with about a 20 minute review of what was covered in the previous practice or game. 

Maybe it's his youth but his enthusiasm for the game is contagious and the boys can see it. We need more coaches like this.


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## younothat (Feb 20, 2019)

"Micromanagement is often cited as the worst trait a manager can have when working with their employees. This is no different with coaching youth sports."

My kids initially learned to love the game by playing, even when they were very young no really coaching or training happen until U9  and that might be even too young for some IMO.

They played with friends, neighbors, pickup futsal, or YMCA foam ball leagues until they were asking to play on the grass pitches.

They both learned a bunch by watching, attending events, and being around the game and still do today I hope.

The other article on this site is relevant to this: Futsal: Is This Simple Game the Missing Link in American Youth Soccer?
https://www.stack.com/a/futsal-the-missing-link-in-american-youth-soccer

"Johan Cruyff, the Dutch forward widely regarded as one of the greatest soccer players in history, once said, "I trained about 3-4 hours a week at Ajax when I was little. But I played 3-4 hours every day on the street. So where do you think I learned to play football?"

The answer is quite obvious. Unstructured play is arguably one of the best activities children can participate in. Give them space and let them create their own reality, or soccer field, or whatever. Michael Beale, former Chelsea youth coach, once said, "Give kids a ball, (and) they'll figure the rest out." In an era of organized playdates and parental fear of children skinning their knees, how do we get kids to simply _play_?

Street soccer is simply picking up a ball, finding some space, and playing. There is no coaching and no parents, just kids creating a love affair with the soccer ball. There are no overzealous coaches screaming what to do at every turn and essentially joysticking their players for 60 minutes. Young players need to learn to play with freedom, flair and creativity, which is what Brazil, Spain, France, Belgium, Holland and Germany have successfully done. They've created players of such unquestionable skill and IQ that they have largely dominated at producing the best players in the world. All these federations revamped their programs to get better after hitting various low points internationally. Yet ironically, the U.S. men's national team doesn't even qualify for a World Cup in a region where they should be a shoo-in, and yet little has changed.

It seems that American children won't be spending 3-4 hours a day playing soccer in the streets anytime soon. But how can we start making up the gap? I believe the introduction of futsal could be exactly what American youth soccer needs"

One of things they continue to do is futsal (even if that means playing with adults) unstructured play and training at the beach for example and they want coaches that support this by making this fun even if its just a few pointers or some light organization to get the events going.

Never really enjoyed the joy-stickers, or set pattern type of coaching for youth,  prefer the kids be taught creativity and have freedom within the team to manage things among themselves when possible.


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## outside! (Feb 20, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> The best are the calls for them to "shoot it" from 20 or 30 yards out or to just "boot it" up. I hear this all of the time from my youngest on a '06 team to my oldest on a '01 and high school team.


I did the math. Sound at sea level takes over 1/10th of a second to travel 50 yards. One tenth of a second is a long time when a player is making a decision to shoot and by the time mom or dad's scream of "shoot" reaches their ears, the moment is past.

Parents need to just shut up (wow, I said that more nicely than normal) and coaches should only instruct the players that don't have the ball.


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## foreveryoung (Feb 20, 2019)

For whatever reason my son can't always convince his classmates to choose soccer for their recess activity, but when he does and he is  playing soccer everyday at recess at school, it has definitely translated to his performance with his soccer team.  To the point that his coaches comment on it.  His confidence, his balls skills, his wiling to try new things.  Crazy how much it influences his development.

That is clearly a major difference between the US and other countries.  If you look at any of the major soccer players they all grew up playing soccer all the time in a unorganized setting.  That and the fact that internationally soccer is primarily a sport played by the working, not upper middle class, are key differences in the US.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 20, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> Coaches who joystick players either don't understand the game (often due to a lack of playing experience) or they simply don't understand how to coach and influence young athletes (mention the words 'athlete centered' and they'll reply, "athlete what?!")
> 
> If the coach doesn't understand the game AND doesn't understand how to coach young athletes (we all come across coaches in this bracket), then their players aren't going to get much in the way of 'development', on or off the field.
> 
> ...


What are the parents like in UK for youth soccer?  I can't imagine they're somehow more civilized than we are given how passionate they're with soccer.

In case you guys haven't seen it, Netflix has a great documentary "Sunderland 'Til I Die" that documented the club's painful season that ended in relegation.  It was eye-opening for me to see many women openly cursed at the players.


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## Grace T. (Feb 20, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> What are the parents like in UK for youth soccer?  I can't imagine they're somehow more civilized than we are given how passionate they're with soccer.
> 
> In case you guys haven't seen it, Netflix has a great documentary "Sunderland 'Til I Die" that documented the club's painful season that ended in relegation.  It was eye-opening for me to see many women openly cursed at the players.


Good point.  They have the same issues.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/jul/10/shouting-parents-football-sweden-football-code

The difference though is in the UK, most football is rec.  They aren't trying to get the kids into high school or college ball.  And at the academy level, there's a build-in barrier...academies are reserved for players looking at a pro career and are difficult to break into...if a parent misbehaves enough by undermining a coach or having the ref come down at them, the kid might very well lose his spot and not have a road back onto a new club unless they are the best of the best to overcome being blackballed for being a problem.

Loved the documentary.  Sunderland though got relegated again after the series....they might make it back to Championship this season, though.


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## Grace T. (Feb 20, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/jul/10/shouting-parents-football-sweden-football-code


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## Dargle (Feb 20, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> For whatever reason my son can't always convince his classmates to choose soccer for their recess activity, but when he does and he is  playing soccer everyday at recess at school, it has definitely translated to his performance with his soccer team.  To the point that his coaches comment on it.  His confidence, his balls skills, his wiling to try new things.  Crazy how much it influences his development.
> 
> That is clearly a major difference between the US and other countries.  If you look at any of the major soccer players they all grew up playing soccer all the time in a unorganized setting.  That and the fact that internationally soccer is primarily a sport played by the working, not upper middle class, are key differences in the US.


This depends upon where you live, even in Southern California, let alone the entire US.  One of my kids plays futsal every day at school during lunch and used to play soccer every day during recess (when he had recess), while the other used to play every morning before school on the blacktop during elementary and MS.


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## Chalklines (Feb 20, 2019)

Come watch some youth football in Texas. Will make every soccer coach and parent look tame afterwards.


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## watfly (Feb 20, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> Coaches who joystick players either don't understand the game (often due to a lack of playing experience) or they simply don't understand how to coach and influence young athletes (mention the words 'athlete centered' and they'll reply, "athlete what?!")


I also think it has to a lot to do with arrogance.  Some coaches think because they were the Al Bundy of high school soccer that they have all this great wisdom to impart as kids are dribbling the ball down the sideline.  "How are they going to learn without me?"


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## Paul Spacey (Feb 20, 2019)

watfly said:


> I also think it has to a lot to do with arrogance.  Some coaches think because they were the Al Bundy of high school soccer that they have all this great wisdom to impart as kids are dribbling the ball down the sideline.  "How are they going to learn without me?"


Absolutely no doubt that's true a lot; we hear it most weekends. Playing experience is helpful IMO but is not a direct reflection of whether you are/will be a good coach or not. It helps with understanding the game though so you don't run through the top 10 American football 'plays' as your approach to coaching your elite championship winning national platinum team. 

Running a 'play' from kick off is something I see often and it always leaves me bemused; the kids run through it like robots, regardless of opponents' positioning and reactions. It's a perfect example of being coached to follow a play rather than observing, interacting and making decisions based on what is developing in front of you (something young players cannot do if some idiot is screaming from the sideline every time they touch the ball).


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## electrichead72 (Feb 20, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> In case you guys haven't seen it, Netflix has a great documentary "Sunderland 'Til I Die" that documented the club's painful season that ended in relegation.  It was eye-opening for me to see many women openly cursed at the players.


That was a great show. It was heartbreaking to watch them struggle and try to avoid relegation and what it meant to the club.

There are a few behind the scenes shows on Netflix. For the opposite view, watch the Juventus one for a team at the top of the table. Also, the Man City one on Amazon is quite good.


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## electrichead72 (Feb 20, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> Running a 'play' from kick off is something I see often and it always leaves me bemused; the kids run through it like robots, regardless of opponents' positioning and reactions. It's a perfect example of being coached to follow a play rather than observing, interacting and making decisions based on what is developing in front of you (something young players cannot do if some idiot is screaming from the sideline every time they touch the ball).


I see kids doing this kind of thing. Running a play, or doing something with the ball that is "pre-programmed" and they do it regardless of the situation that they are in.

They're not adapting or learning to make decisions based on what's going on around them.


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## Real Deal (Feb 20, 2019)

On the flipside-- does it drive anyone else crazy when you see a kid (maybe your own kid)-- make the same mistake over and over and over and the coach never says anything???  #whyparentsscream #pleasecoachscreamwhenyouneedto #pleaserespectyourcoach


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 20, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> On the flipside-- does it drive anyone else crazy when you see a kid (maybe your own kid)-- make the same mistake over and over and over and the coach never says anything???  #whyparentsscream #pleasecoachscreamwhenyouneedto #pleaserespectyourcoach


Please don’t get me started on my kid or anyone else’s. I see this all the time and in some cases for years.


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## electrichead72 (Feb 20, 2019)

You also have the instance where the kids on the team don't pay attention to things the other team does repeatedly.

The other team may play goal kicks and corner kicks short, and you would think that after they do it for the first half of the game, the kids would think to look for that and be ready for it.

Alas, usually not.

My other pet peeve is not facing the ball. I tell my kids all of the time, just because it's a free kick or the keeper has the ball, don't switch off and put your back to them. A quick restart and they aren't ready for it.


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## Grace T. (Feb 20, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> That was a great show. It was heartbreaking to watch them struggle and try to avoid relegation and what it meant to the club.
> 
> There are a few behind the scenes shows on Netflix. For the opposite view, watch the Juventus one for a team at the top of the table. Also, the Man City one on Amazon is quite good.


The best soccer show on Netflix I think is actually a fictional one in Spanish-- Club de Cuervos.  Everything that's wrong with professional soccer.  Satires everything from owners, to the TV holders, the league, the coaches, the players, the governments, FIFA and the world cup bid.


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## electrichead72 (Feb 21, 2019)

I agree that's a good one too.


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## Socal United (Feb 21, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> The best soccer show on Netflix I think is actually a fictional one in Spanish-- Club de Cuervos.  Everything that's wrong with professional soccer.  Satires everything from owners, to the TV holders, the league, the coaches, the players, the governments, FIFA and the world cup bid.


Watch the movie Bad Parents.  It came out in 2012, lots of known stars.  Absolutely hilarious.


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## Grace T. (Feb 21, 2019)

Socal United said:


> Watch the movie Bad Parents.  It came out in 2012, lots of known stars.  Absolutely hilarious.


I relate to the main character so much that this particular film always hits a little too close to home to be funny.  In any case, should be mandatory viewing for new parents to club soccer.


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## Socal United (Feb 21, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> I relate to the main character so much that this particular film always hits a little too close to home to be funny.  In any case, should be mandatory viewing for new parents to club soccer.


I hear ya.  I can place a parent or coach with almost every character, it is a little scary....


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## socalkdg (Feb 22, 2019)

Never heard of the movie, now it is on my must watch list.


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## Calisoccer11 (Feb 23, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> On the flipside-- does it drive anyone else crazy when you see a kid (maybe your own kid)-- make the same mistake over and over and over and the coach never says anything???  #whyparentsscream #pleasecoachscreamwhenyouneedto #pleaserespectyourcoach


Yes!!!  And that's why we knew it was time to look for a new coach!!


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## blam (Feb 24, 2019)

I once know a coach who kicked this boot and hit my baby beckham. Crazy how some coaches are. 

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/beckham-jokes-about-infamous-ferguson-flying-boot-incident/1pn3wr0qoa6351j7d8vsutpnb9


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## Woobie06 (Feb 25, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> My other pet peeve is not facing the ball. I tell my kids all of the time, just because it's a free kick or the keeper has the ball, don't switch off and put your back to them. A quick restart and they aren't ready for it.


This one kills me...every single game it happens...and it seems like such an easy fix


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## MARsSPEED (Mar 4, 2019)

I actually disagree with much of the article. The problem with soccer and many other sports is that winning does not matter anymore. It's not the coach's fault or the athlete's fault. The fault is the same you see in AAU basketball.* Too many tournaments, not enough training.* Winning tournaments does not mean anything anymore and is just an afterthought. Remember when the NCAA tournament was great? It still kind of is, but nothing like it used to be back in the 80s and 90s...Look at the Olympics (not soccer or other pro team sports). Do you think these athletes were told not to care about winning?

As for coaching, it's fine to "joystick" as long as you follow up as to why you were telling the player what to do, rather than just screaming at him what to do without explanation. That goes back to positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement. Yes, parents need to shut up. Cheer on the good plays and moan at the bad. We live in an age where feelings matter more than facts which is a problem with our society, not just sports. A coach should lay down the law from the very beginning. No direction from parents or you can go play rec!!!

Anyways, you want to fix the problem, fix the issue of money corrupting youth sports and you will see a return. One league, one tournament per season,  and one national tournament per u14 and up. Follow the same model with DA and ECNL for the elite teams. 

*Bottom line, make winning matter again. Read about the Greats in their sport, Vince Lombardi, Morgan Wootten, Lou Holtz, John Wooden, and AJAX School, FCB Academy. *


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## Grace T. (Mar 4, 2019)

MARsSPEED said:


> As for coaching, it's fine to "joystick" as long as you follow up as to why you were telling the player what to do, rather than just screaming at him what to do without explanation.


Joysticking in soccer is always going to be an exercise in futility.  Soccer is one of the sports where off ball movement is just as important as ball movement.  As anyone who has played FIFA will see, it's impossible for a coach to keep his eye on all of the players.  If the coach is yelling at a defender to block the shot, he's not coaching (or watching) the goalkeeper whose out of position.  If the coach is yelling at the winger to push it towards the outside, he's not coaching (or watching) the midfielder whose asking for the impossible pass.  Some sports (like water polo and ice hockey) are in a similar boat.  Other sports, like football (set plays/pauses in play), basketball (fewer players, man on man or zone defenses), baseball (sequential play/positional coaches/pauses in play), don't have that problem.

And that's before you get to the speed of the game (and by the time the player hears the instruction it's too late to adapt), the development of young athletes brains (that they can process less than we adults can, and so may not even hear the instruction), and the fact that in the technical area the coaches are in horrible position to issue instructions (which is why goalkeepers are taught to issue cues to the defender).  It's why the new training is encouraging youth coaches (given that most have unlimited substitutions) to instead of yelling the instruction sub the player out and coach the player when he has the full attention of the coach.

Joystick coaching soccer would look very different than the current game: a defensive and offensive coach stationed at either end, radio communication between the coaches at higher levels, and frequent time outs.


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## Real Deal (Mar 4, 2019)

MARsSPEED said:


> I actually disagree with much of the article. The problem with soccer and many other sports is that winning does not matter anymore. It's not the coach's fault or the athlete's fault. The fault is the same you see in AAU basketball.* Too many tournaments, not enough training.* Winning tournaments does not mean anything anymore and is just an afterthought. Remember when the NCAA tournament was great? It still kind of is, but nothing like it used to be back in the 80s and 90s...Look at the Olympics (not soccer or other pro team sports). Do you think these athletes were told not to care about winning?
> 
> As for coaching, it's fine to "joystick" as long as you follow up as to why you were telling the player what to do, rather than just screaming at him what to do without explanation. That goes back to positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement. Yes, parents need to shut up. Cheer on the good plays and moan at the bad. We live in an age where feelings matter more than facts which is a problem with our society, not just sports. A coach should lay down the law from the very beginning. No direction from parents or you can go play rec!!!
> 
> ...


I'd agree with this, but skew it a bit differently. The focus increasingly seems to be about individual achievements over team play.  Finding a way to contribute to a team victory should be the goal.

Even the best youth players should have this notion instilled in them from the get go, and sadly, some of those who do sacrifice their own "show" for the team, seem to get overlooked. We love and need our superstars, but at the end of the day, it's about a team winning a game.    Agree, even bigger money out there if this were the emphasis.


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## Grace T. (Mar 4, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> I'd agree with this, but skew it a bit differently. The focus increasingly seems to be about individual achievements over team play.


That's true not only in the US but worldwide.  At the younger levels, one player can really make a difference in the outcome of a game.  At the pros, the strikers and the CMs are usually the ones to pull in the big bucks.

The issue with soccer is that it's set up like a rock band.  Everyone wants to be the singer (striker) out in front, with all the fame and glory, and the big paycheck to match, but breaking into that slot is very difficult and you have to be the best of the best.  A good guitarist (midfielder) can achieve fame and glory but not all guitarists are created equal and there are a lot of them.  A keyboardist (winger) may get a flourish here and there, but they are a bit of a luxury.  The drummer (keeper) is instrumental in keeping the band in time, lot's of talented musicians could fill in, but it takes a special ear and a little bit of craziness to be a proficient drummer, but they don't get a lot of the recognition in the band and the way they approach music is very different.  A talented bass player (defender) will always work but it's a position rarely understood and even more rarely appreciated.


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## outside! (Mar 4, 2019)

Who listen's to the bass player?


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## focomoso (Mar 5, 2019)

outside! said:


> Who listen's to the bass player?


Seinfeld!


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## socalkdg (Mar 26, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> My other pet peeve is not facing the ball. I tell my kids all of the time, just because it's a free kick or the keeper has the ball, don't switch off and put your back to them. A quick restart and they aren't ready for it.


Happens all the time.  Since my daughter is a keeper I notice this more than others might.  Goes to roll or throw it out, and they are jogging with back to the keeper.   Turn your head.

Must admit our coach does some joystick coaching, although it is usually team oriented.  Most common phrases are Press, Switch the ball, or Play the keeper, those type of things.


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## Soccercritique (Mar 26, 2019)

Denied said:


> My kid was out for a year, injury. When he returned I wanted to find a coach who didn't yell all game and make the kids nervous and afraid to make a mistake. The coach he ended up with, is what I hope will be, the new generation of coaches. The guy is only about 24, played in college, still plays in an adult league but more importantly starts every practice with about a 20 minute review of what was covered in the previous practice or game.
> 
> Maybe it's his youth but his enthusiasm for the game is contagious and the boys can see it. We need more coaches like this.


20 minutes of review??  That's over coaching.  your review should be last 2-3 minutes after practice: What was the biggest thing that stuck out today in training. 20 minutes ONLY leaves you with less opportunities to get touches on the ball...and we all know they need more.  As for the yelling coaches, I don't have a problem with it.  There's a HUGE difference. between yelling and being demeaning/shaming.  Our coach always yells at the kids but he's affirmative in his comments.  "GrRRRREAT job, or WORK WORK WORK, TOUCH...bottom line is this...when kids are in college they're not going to have pampered coaches patting them on the back when they lose possession nor will they have mommy and daddy to back them up.  They're adults AND it's gonna cost coaches jobs if they don't perform like they're projected.  it's kind of unfair that it has to be that way but it's college athletics at its finest.


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## Soccer43 (Mar 26, 2019)

Denied said:


> My kid was out for a year, injury. When he returned I wanted to find a coach who didn't yell all game and make the kids nervous and afraid to make a mistake. The coach he ended up with, is what I hope will be, the new generation of coaches. The guy is only about 24, played in college, still plays in an adult league but more importantly starts every practice with about a 20 minute review of what was covered in the previous practice or game.
> 
> Maybe it's his youth but his enthusiasm for the game is contagious and the boys can see it. We need more coaches like this.


Having a young coach that was a player is not always a good thing.  They don't have the maturity and life experience, they know how to play but may not know how to teach.  Also often don't understand cognitive and developmental levels of children so they miss the boat sometimes.  Sometimes expectations are way to high and forget they are kids.  This is probably more of a problem with the U12 and younger (and also girls) but maybe not so much with olders


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## timbuck (Mar 26, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Having a young coach that was a player is not always a good thing.  They don't have the maturity and life experience, know how to play but don't know how to teach.  Also often don't understand cognitive and developmental levels of children so they miss the boat sometimes.  Sometimes expectations are way to high and forget they are kids.  This is probably more of a problem with the U12 and younger (and also girls) but maybe not so much with olders


Totally agree.  A fresh out of college player is in a fresh out of college mode.  They dont remember what it was like when they were 8.  Or they were a high performing 8 year old and have a hard time connecting with a kid who is decent but isn’t highly motivated.


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## Kg9-11 (Apr 1, 2019)

Micromanaging from the coaches is need for kids under 10.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 3, 2019)

If we stop joysticking and give the players some ownership and control, we will see them really thrive. As noted in the article below...

http://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/1009674


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 3, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> If we stop joysticking and give the players some ownership and control, we will see them really thrive. As noted in the article below...
> 
> http://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/1009674


Not sure you know, but their a club out of LA.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 3, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Not sure you know, but their a club out of LA.


I do know. It’s my club...so excuse the self-promotion


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 3, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> I do know. It’s my club...so excuse the self-promotion


Ah! Ok!


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## genesis (May 31, 2019)

Zzzzzzz


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## messy (Jun 3, 2019)

There's a tremendous piece on this month's "real sports with bryant gumbel" about youth sports in norway, with some great lessons for us all. they dominate winter olympics and have the world's best female soccer player.

until 13 years old, they don't keep score (or winners and losers in track events), they don't do "travel teams" and they don't rank anybody. it's all purely for fun.

After that, major programs, funded in large part by sports gambling(!!!)


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## LASTMAN14 (Jun 3, 2019)

messy said:


> There's a tremendous piece on this month's "real sports with bryant gumbel" about youth sports in norway, with some great lessons for us all. they dominate winter olympics and have the world's best female soccer player.
> 
> until 13 years old, they don't keep score (or winners and losers in track events), they don't do "travel teams" and they don't rank anybody. it's all purely for fun.
> 
> After that, major programs, funded in large part by sports gambling(!!!)


Enjoy that show and saw that episode. It is impressive what they do. Cost of participation is purposefully kept low. But they also mentioned that after 13 years old athletes are weeded out from these national programs. It felt like they were cut and never brought back into the mix, hopefully I am wrong. And with their size in both population and land mass it makes something like this much more manageable.


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## End of the Line (Jun 3, 2019)

messy said:


> There's a tremendous piece on this month's "real sports with bryant gumbel" about youth sports in norway, with some great lessons for us all. they dominate winter olympics and have the world's best female soccer player.
> 
> until 13 years old, they don't keep score (or winners and losers in track events), they don't do "travel teams" and they don't rank anybody. it's all purely for fun.
> 
> After that, major programs, funded in large part by sports gambling(!!!)


Gosh, I thought we were supposed to be following the Japanese model.  Or the Dutch.  Or the Spanish.  Now we're supposed to be doing what Norway is doing?  Is there any country in the world that isn't better than the U.S. at creating great soccer players?  Now that Bryant Gumbel has determined that more snow is key to making great soccer players, I guess I should apologize for criticizing USSF's decision to hold the GDA spring showcase in Colorado.


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## foreveryoung (Jun 3, 2019)

messy said:


> There's a tremendous piece on this month's "real sports with bryant gumbel" about youth sports in norway, with some great lessons for us all. they dominate winter olympics and have the world's best female soccer player.
> 
> until 13 years old, they don't keep score (or winners and losers in track events), they don't do "travel teams" and they don't rank anybody. it's all purely for fun.
> 
> After that, major programs, funded in large part by sports gambling(!!!)


It seems it would be pretty easy implementation by Cal South and local leagues to stop posting scores for all teams under 13.  I would even say under 15.  I don’t think many 10 year olds are looking up their team records online and every team that they play.    It’s clearly serving the the adults and not the youth.  I’m amazed at how many parents know
more about socal youth soccer team records and players than any professional soccer league.   I imagine it would make its way to the internet somehow but it would at least make it harder to obtain and reduce the amount of people that are accessing the scores/standings.   It might help reduce some of the craziness from the adults involved and put the focus more on serving the youth and developing players than just creating winning teams.


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## espola (Jun 3, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> It seems it would be pretty easy implementation by Cal South and local leagues to stop posting scores for all teams under 13.  I would even say under 15.  I don’t think many 10 year olds are looking up their team records online and every team that they play.    It’s clearly serving the the adults and not the youth.  I’m amazed at how many parents know
> more about socal youth soccer team records and players than any professional soccer league.   I imagine it would make its way to the internet somehow but it would at least make it harder to obtain and reduce the amount of people that are accessing the scores/standings.   It might help reduce some of the craziness from the adults involved and put the focus more on serving the youth and developing players than just creating winning teams.


What about State Cup?


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## foreveryoung (Jun 3, 2019)

espola said:


> What about State Cup?


Personally I am not a fan of State Cup and wouldn't mind if it went away.  Another example of a youth event that really serves the adults.  It's the adults that make State Cup important to the kids and it's full of truly terrible sideline behavior BUT since that's just my personal opinion maybe State Cup is the one exception and the scores are public.


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## messy (Jun 3, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Gosh, I thought we were supposed to be following the Japanese model.  Or the Dutch.  Or the Spanish.  Now we're supposed to be doing what Norway is doing?  Is there any country in the world that isn't better than the U.S. at creating great soccer players?  Now that Bryant Gumbel has determined that more snow is key to making great soccer players, I guess I should apologize for criticizing USSF's decision to hold the GDA spring showcase in Colorado.


Funny. Of course we don’t know if Norway (or Japan?) is making better soccer players than us, but we certainly know that Holland and Spain are. So are Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, France, Germany, Italy, Croatia, etc etc. 
Norway’s philosophy about sport, and life in general, is fun to look at.


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## Grace T. (Jun 3, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> It seems it would be pretty easy implementation by Cal South and local leagues to stop posting scores for all teams under 13.  I would even say under 15.  I don’t think many 10 year olds are looking up their team records online and every team that they play.    It’s clearly serving the the adults and not the youth.  I’m amazed at how many parents know
> more about socal youth soccer team records and players than any professional soccer league.   I imagine it would make its way to the internet somehow but it would at least make it harder to obtain and reduce the amount of people that are accessing the scores/standings.   It might help reduce some of the craziness from the adults involved and put the focus more on serving the youth and developing players than just creating winning teams.


You'd have to fix the bracket system too then because the wins/losses determine promotion (and for what's left of it, relegation).  The clubs want the promotion so they can attract better players and have multiple teams in the same club (and a more healthy bottom line).  The coaches know that they'll be judged on promotion/relegation.  At the same time, you can't have gold level teams playing bronze teams and whipping them 20-0.  The main reason scores are still tracked, despite the player development initiatives of 2 years ago, is because of the need to bracket teams.  But the brackets have also become a way that parents judge the success and competence of the teams (and the players and coaches on them).


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## foreveryoung (Jun 4, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> You'd have to fix the bracket system too then because the wins/losses determine promotion (and for what's left of it, relegation).  The clubs want the promotion so they can attract better players and have multiple teams in the same club (and a more healthy bottom line).  The coaches know that they'll be judged on promotion/relegation.  At the same time, you can't have gold level teams playing bronze teams and whipping them 20-0.  The main reason scores are still tracked, despite the player development initiatives of 2 years ago, is because of the need to bracket teams.  But the brackets have also become a way that parents judge the success and competence of the teams (and the players and coaches on them).


I never suggested that the leagues stop tracking the scores.  Just that they stop making the info available online for the parents to see.  That’s an easy change to implement and could have some positive affects.  There’s no reason I can think of that the results of every game need to be known online by anyone that wants to see.  Again it’s the adults that are looking at the results, not the kids. Then we tell them whether the team they are playing are good or not.


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## MR.D (Jun 4, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> I never suggested that the leagues stop tracking the scores.  Just that they stop making the info available online for the parents to see.  That’s an easy change to implement and could have some positive affects.  There’s no reason I can think of that the results of every game need to be known online by anyone that wants to see.  Again it’s the adults that are looking at the results, not the kids. Then we tell them whether the team they are playing are good or not.


For every 1 person that wants to block the scores from the masses, there are probably over 50 people who want to see the scores.  I think you're out numbered bro.  So what if they show the scores.  My dd always asks me if the team she's about to play is any good.  She's been doing this since she was U9.  Maybe your kid doesn't care how good the next team is, mine does, and I'm sure others do as well.  How will we know how to compare teams if no scores are posted?


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## focomoso (Jun 4, 2019)

MR.D said:


> For every 1 person that wants to block the scores from the masses, there are probably over 50 people who want to see the scores.  I think you're out numbered bro.  So what if they show the scores.  My dd always asks me if the team she's about to play is any good.  She's been doing this since she was U9.  Maybe your kid doesn't care how good the next team is, mine does, and I'm sure others do as well.  How will we know how to compare teams if no scores are posted?


This is the crux of the problem. At this age, comparing teams is pointless. It's the absolute last thing anyone should be worrying about. What matters is developing players and if teams are worried about their record or youth soccer rank or promotion and relegation, they don't develop players as well.


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## MR.D (Jun 4, 2019)

focomoso said:


> This is the crux of the problem. At this age, comparing teams is pointless. It's the absolute last thing anyone should be worrying about. What matters is developing players and if teams are worried about their record or youth soccer rank or promotion and relegation, they don't develop players as well.


We don't worry about YSR so much.  Its more of how well are we gonna play against the next team.  You don't want to play a team you're gonna crush, that does no one any good.  And knowing how well the next team does can help you avoid playing them or schedule games against them.  The coaches/docs don't schedule/arrange every tournament/friendly, sometimes its left up to the team managers/parents to find good competition.  So knowing a good team to play would be helpful.


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## Grace T. (Jun 4, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> I never suggested that the leagues stop tracking the scores.  Just that they stop making the info available online for the parents to see.  That’s an easy change to implement and could have some positive affects.  There’s no reason I can think of that the results of every game need to be known online by anyone that wants to see.  Again it’s the adults that are looking at the results, not the kids. Then we tell them whether the team they are playing are good or not.


The promotion/relegation (along with the tournament trophies) is what the coaches are chasing (and what's distorting the focus on development).  So the only thing your proposal would do is just hide the info from the parents (which would have the unintended consequence of making the bracket a team is in even more important to the parents).  And so long as there's an "official" score to report for a match, some enterprising fellow will find a way to get it out to the parents (since there's a market for the information being hidden from them, but which would still be available to the coaches/DOC since you'd need transparency for purposes of promoting/relegating [none of them will accept CalSouth arbitrarily telling them they got promoted/relegated without an explanation as to where they stood] and setting up scrimmages)


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## foreveryoung (Jun 4, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> The promotion/relegation (along with the tournament trophies) is what the coaches are chasing (and what's distorting the focus on development).  So the only thing your proposal would do is just hide the info from the parents (which would have the unintended consequence of making the bracket a team is in even more important to the parents).  And so long as there's an "official" score to report for a match, some enterprising fellow will find a way to get it out to the parents (since there's a market for the information being hidden from them, but which would still be available to the coaches/DOC since you'd need transparency for purposes of promoting/relegating [none of them will accept CalSouth arbitrarily telling them they got promoted/relegated without an explanation as to where they stood] and setting up scrimmages)


The brackets are already extremely important to parents but I agree it's not a major fix and someone would likely create a "pay to see the scores" website for the same info but it could be a first (baby) step in sending a message that we should refrain from focusing on standings/rankings at the younger ages if we want to keep kids playing sports and develop better soccer players.   A lot more could be done but this would be an easy one to implement.


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## Grace T. (Jun 4, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> I agree it's not a major fix and someone would likely create a "pay to see the scores" website for the same info but it could be a first (baby) step in sending a message that we should refrain from focusing on standings/rankings at the younger ages if we want to keep kids playing sports and develop better soccer players.   A lot more could be done but this would be an easy one to implement.


One of the other issues in youth soccer is the lack of trust between clubs and parents.  The impression among some [many?] parents is that the track suited ones are only in it for the salary and use the kids like tools when it suits them.  The impression among some [many?] coaches is that the parents are fickle and insane, chasing the wins and club hoping when it suits them.  Then there's the lack of communication generally re playing time, expectations, coach's strategy etc.  Hiding this information from the parents but making it available to the clubs is going to make that worse.

I agree we have to move more away from competition and towards development at the younger ages.  But I don't see any easy fix for it as long as we have the bracket system (and we need the bracket system or you'd have gold teams pounding bronze teams 20-0).  If it were easy, it would have been done already (but US soccer didn't even have the guts to make its development initiatives mandatory).


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## timbuck (Jun 4, 2019)

The fix is what AYSO does for their spring league.
Play 4 or 5 games against teams that you think are the right level for you.  If a team smokes everyone, they get moved up against the next group.  If a team gets crushed, they get moved down.  Then play 5 games in the newly shuffled group.  Will take a bit of work on the part of the scheduler, but with so many games being played at Great Park, SilverLakes, Oceanside, Del Mar - the field allocation is less of an issue than when were playing at random middle schools.
In a competitive league, nobody should go undefeated.  And nobody should lose every game.
Wrap it all up with an open draw tournament for 2 weeks at the end of the season.


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## Grace T. (Jun 4, 2019)

timbuck said:


> In a competitive league, nobody should go undefeated.  And nobody should lose every game.
> .


Agree but there's usually a team out there (at least at the bottom of the silvers and bronze) that something happens (they lose their coach, they lose their top player to an injury, they have drama) and they disintegrate mid season (ending up at the bottom usually having lost everything or near everything).  Coast also usually insists on every team starting in the bronze (I can see the rationale but it leads to crazy results like my son's United team really only having had 1 team in competition against them in the entire bracket and smoking bronze teams 20-0 even placing the keeper on the field and instructing them to connect before shooting, but then not being ready when they move up against the tougher silver teams in tournaments/cups) which isn't good for the bronze teams that are properly placed but getting pounded (likewise for rare teams promoted to silver or silver elite which should be even higher levels).   There was one United Team in my son's age group that swept the summer tournaments 20-0 against silver, silver elite and pre-academy teams (they had like 4 kids that could pound it from the top of the 18 over the keeper's head and just took random shots from there) that it took pulling teeth to get them to start at silver (they didn't even play good soccer...just have a few good kids that can shoot accurately and hard beyond what's usual for the age expectation, but the brackets should be more about playing for appropriate levels instead of "earning" higher placement). And then you have teams like my son's team 2 years ago which take the promotion to silver but probably shouldn't...but again because the brackets are viewed more as saying how good you are (like pro teams in their league tiers, instead of being about appropriate competition) they felt obligated to accept.

With an area as big as Socal, the other problem is the driving distance and the number of teams you'd have to schedule.  You could break up SoCal into various league (which is maybe one of the reasons why we already have as many leagues as we do) but then distance becomes even more of a problem as does coordination.  AYSO has the advantage of having a lot of teams captured in the same location...you see the system begin to fall apart on the AllStar and Extras level as larger regions tend to have a larger pool of talent.

If the brackets are going to be about how good a team is (instead of about getting teams appropriate competition), it's probably time for a more restricted "dance with the one that brung you" rule....if you accept promotion, you can't forcibly drop more than 1 or 2 players for the first season of promotion, to prevent the upgrade dance that players and teams do every try out season.


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## timbuck (Jun 4, 2019)

If you look at SCDSL as an example -  Most teams are within 30 miles of each other.  And most are certainly within 30 miles of the Great Park or Silverlakes.
There does need to be a complex of fields a little further north for the Long Beach/LA/Valley teams.

And now with so many "other" (DA, ECNL, DPL, ECNL2) leagues, SCDSL could be a game changer by putting this in place.  But they'll probably just add another layer of Flight 1 instead.


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## genesis (Jun 4, 2019)

messy said:


> There's a tremendous piece on this month's "real sports with bryant gumbel" about youth sports in norway, with some great lessons for us all. they dominate winter olympics and have the world's best female soccer player.
> 
> until 13 years old, they don't keep score (or winners and losers in track events), they don't do "travel teams" and they don't rank anybody. it's all purely for fun.
> 
> After that, major programs, funded in large part by sports gambling(!!!)


There is something to be said for an atmosphere of peace. Keep in mind college is free.


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## focomoso (Jun 5, 2019)

timbuck said:


> The fix is what AYSO does for their spring league.
> Play 4 or 5 games against teams that you think are the right level for you.  If a team smokes everyone, they get moved up against the next group.  If a team gets crushed, they get moved down.  Then play 5 games in the newly shuffled group.  Will take a bit of work on the part of the scheduler, but with so many games being played at Great Park, SilverLakes, Oceanside, Del Mar - the field allocation is less of an issue than when were playing at random middle schools.
> In a competitive league, nobody should go undefeated.  And nobody should lose every game.
> Wrap it all up with an open draw tournament for 2 weeks at the end of the season.


Isn't this just promotion relegation? Won't coaches use their "final group" or whatever as a recruiting tool to get more good kids?


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## Woobie06 (Jun 24, 2019)

timbuck said:


> The fix is what AYSO does for their spring league.
> Play 4 or 5 games against teams that you think are the right level for you.  If a team smokes everyone, they get moved up against the next group.  If a team gets crushed, they get moved down.  Then play 5 games in the newly shuffled group.  Will take a bit of work on the part of the scheduler, but with so many games being played at Great Park, SilverLakes, Oceanside, Del Mar - the field allocation is less of an issue than when were playing at random middle schools.
> In a competitive league, nobody should go undefeated.  And nobody should lose every game.
> Wrap it all up with an open draw tournament for 2 weeks at the end of the season.


They do something similar in club Volleyball, one tournament a month, play 3 or matches and teams constantly move up and down the ladder based on performance.  They is a beginning of season/year tournament to set the baseline.

I’m all for development in all sports, but if you are going to play or do anything competitive anything at any level or anything, don’t you need to keep score?  That’s what a competition is:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/competition


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## Zizu84 (Jun 24, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> The brackets are already extremely important to parents but I agree it's not a major fix and someone would likely create a "pay to see the scores" website for the same info but it could be a first (baby) step in sending a message that we should refrain from focusing on standings/rankings at the younger ages if we want to keep kids playing sports and develop better soccer players.   A lot more could be done but this would be an easy one to implement.




The rankings do not affect the player at all. If anything it affects the parents and they take it out in the kids.


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## timbuck (Jun 24, 2019)

focomoso said:


> Isn't this just promotion relegation? Won't coaches use their "final group" or whatever as a recruiting tool to get more good kids?


Coaches/clubs will find a way to spin it regardless. 
“We went undefeated in the 1st half of the season and then the league knew we had to get moved up.  Took us some time to adjust to the faster pace.  We just need an impact player to get to the next level.”

And on social media they’ll only post the wins and include the name of the team they beat.


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## Not_that_Serious (Jun 28, 2019)

timbuck said:


> The fix is what AYSO does for their spring league.
> Play 4 or 5 games against teams that you think are the right level for you.  If a team smokes everyone, they get moved up against the next group.  If a team gets crushed, they get moved down.  Then play 5 games in the newly shuffled group.  Will take a bit of work on the part of the scheduler, but with so many games being played at Great Park, SilverLakes, Oceanside, Del Mar - the field allocation is less of an issue than when were playing at random middle schools.
> In a competitive league, nobody should go undefeated.  And nobody should lose every game.
> Wrap it all up with an open draw tournament for 2 weeks at the end of the season.


Also add with csl doing the nonsense bronze approach kids won’t develop as they should by trashing weak opponents. It basically kills half of a year of dev. Then they go to state cup at level they shouldn’t be at too. Not hard to get a new csl team a friendly against a few teams at different levels and place them. They overthought that process just to be complete opposite of scdsl


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 4, 2019)

It’s interesting to see how much blame coaches get on this post and very little blame is on the insane parents.   I am a recovering insane parent!   Lol.  

With my Olders, I pushed them too much and they quit by the time they got to high school. 

With my young one it’s a do-over for me.  We are not doing  soccer camps and no private lessons.     She is getting her soccer minutes  playing with boys during recess hours every day.    She played basketball in the spring for 8 weeks to give her a break from soccer.  

I also know that more than likely she will be done with club soccer by the time high school starts.  I’m ok with this.  I believe that the amount of school work kids have to do in high school is a big reason why kids quit sports.


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## Justus (Sep 4, 2019)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> It’s interesting to see how much blame coaches get on this post and very little blame is on the insane parents.   I am a recovering insane parent!   Lol.
> 
> With my Olders, I pushed them too much and they quit by the time they got to high school.
> 
> ...


Thanks for being honest.  I tried to get mine to play in the DA, skip HS all together and move up to San Jose for better training so she could make The List   Crazy stuff we do for our kids and maybe for us too


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## Chalklines (Sep 5, 2019)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> It’s interesting to see how much blame coaches get on this post and very little blame is on the insane parents.   I am a recovering insane parent!   Lol.
> 
> With my Olders, I pushed them too much and they quit by the time they got to high school.
> 
> ...


Ive noticed over the years at least in sports parents take the blame in the end for their kids just not having it. It's easier to take the fall then face reality. (not saying this is your situation)


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 13, 2019)

https://www.soccertoday.com/why-are-we-so-overboard-in-youth-soccer/

So kids are not having fun anymore!?  How dare they!  don’t they know that all that yelling from coaches and parents will make them amazing athletes with scholarships raining over them!?!


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## gotothebushes (Sep 14, 2019)

Justus said:


> Thanks for being honest.  I tried to get mine to play in the DA, skip HS all together and move up to San Jose for better training so she could make The List   Crazy stuff we do for our kids and maybe for us too


San Jose for better training? How so?


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

gotothebushes said:


> San Jose for better training? How so?


I was embellishing and thinking in my own mind that's how u get your kid "in."  My dd would never move to San Jose for soccer unless someone offered her 5 year contract for $1,000,000


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

Justus said:


> I was embellishing and thinking in my own mind that's how u get your kid "in."  My dd would never move to San Jose for soccer unless someone offered her 5 year contract for $1,000,000


Have you seen some of these videos?  Please, no one post them here.  It's not the point.  I find it disturbing and it's not about what the girls are trying to do trust me.  It's what daddy is trying to do.  My dd loves me and needs me but not around her 24/7.  One of them is not even playing on a* team* but is looking for opportunities flying around the country.  Already letting the world know she is going pro, a 10, which I guess is attacking CM that everyone wants to play and the position that seems to have the ball 50% of the time these day or more.  "Lead singer or else."  I hope you can sing because if you can't the band will suck!  We had one show up a couple years ago to one of my dds practices.  Wanted to show all the girls how the TC drills are done and how the girls drills weren't up to par.  Well, let me say that didn't go over very well with the veterans who have been in charge since they were 5 with the club.  I have spoken to well qualified soccer coaches who have said this is hurting all the girls.  It's like all the girls are in a "social class" by league status and success.  TC, DA, ECNL, YNT,ODP, ECNL II, DP or DPL, going pro, private coaches, professional video's with ads on them.  The mirage is dads think this is what you have to do to go pro.  I went there for a "few minutes" and tried to dream that one and it was a nightmare quickly.


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

Justus said:


> I was embellishing and thinking in my own mind that's how u get your kid "in."  My dd would never move to San Jose for soccer unless someone offered her 5 year contract for $1,000,000


After she graduates HS with all her friends in HS.


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

I was at Trader Joe's a few months ago and I kid you not, I heard a conversation a dad was having with another mom talking about, you guessed it, DA Soccer in OC.  Not sure the age of dads dd, but he was sharing (bragging, boasting) how much his dd has improved this year and is now being asked to move up from DP to DA.  He said she has to earn her minutes but at least they get to start 1/4 of the time ( that's why I always say that).  I saw the hat he was wearing so I know what club he was at and they had a small exodus of some unhappy folks and it opened up roster spots.  I'm not sure what actually is going on and it's none of my business but it was interesting to say the least and I thought I would share that with all of you.


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

Positive news in coaching
gCoat stories need to be shared. It's not fair to bash them all. My "greatest COACH of all time" goes to my dd HS Varsity Track Coach. He's one of those coaches that teach kids valuable listens early in life. I will love to one day share our only email exchanges. He has team rules like coach Wooden. We all remember the Bill Walton story and his desire to have facial hair, right? Well, this coach had rules too. Right before CIF, my little goat broke one of his rules. She was suspended for the rest of the season (CIF Pre something) for breaking one freaking rule. I emailed that guy and told him everyone deserves a second chance and for what she did deserved one. He said, "no." Well, I emailed him back and shared how this could make her look bad. He said she needs to learn this lesson now. I looked at the crime she committed and thought it was petty. My only analogy would be if DEA agents ran a sting in a park in Colorado and arrested an 18 year old dude smoking some grass. Then the van shows up and hauls his ass off to that Federal Prison in NY where that dude was that killed himself, allegedly. But you know what, it was the best thing that ever happened to her and when I see and actually meet him for the first time I will give him a Big Hug!!!!


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## Justus (Sep 15, 2019)

Keep in mine my little goat never been to public school before. Went to charter (Prep, no outside influence if you know what I mean), mandatory uniforms for all (saved me a lot of money) and 100% all about getting into college. 70 kids in your whole 2022 class and 10 students in a classroom with a computer and all that stuff. Her classes now have 36 per room, plus they HAVE to take math for three years. This is a problem and I love math but not that subject. When I went to High School, it was one and done and it did not have to be Algebra. Just one freaking year in the 80s. Now 3? We need this fixed quickly imho. I don't see the rules changing anytime soon. However, I do have one idea. Take the smartest 12 and the weaker 12 and put 3 groups of 12 together. Let the smart one lead the group and then they all get a group grade. Geometry to many girls & boys is discouraging and depressing. I have to now go pay for a tutor for something she will never , ever use in her life. How about a class on Accounting. How to manage and use money as a tool in life. Money always get's bad rap. Someone once said, "money is the root of all evil." Money is not evil, it's usually the root where the evil is. Money get's blamed for everything and its not fair to all the money. Thank God money doesn't have any feelings  It's not their fault their called "Money." Money is NOT EVIL!!!!!


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## Toch (Sep 23, 2019)

Justus said:


> I was at Trader Joe's a few months ago and I kid you not, I heard a conversation a dad was having with another mom talking about, you guessed it, DA Soccer in OC.  Not sure the age of dads dd, but he was sharing (bragging, boasting) how much his dd has improved this year and is now being asked to move up from DP to DA.  He said she has to earn her minutes but at least they get to start 1/4 of the time ( that's why I always say that).  I saw the hat he was wearing so I know what club he was at and they had a small exodus of some unhappy folks and it opened up roster spots.  I'm not sure what actually is going on and it's none of my business but it was interesting to say the least and I thought I would share that with all of you.


Love the hate parents sneak into their observations.
This idiot was hating so much he took a
Jab at a kid. Who cares why or how she got called to
DA? Stop the hating on kids. At least let them turn 18 before you start talking smack


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## Justus (Sep 23, 2019)

Toch said:


> Love the hate parents sneak into their observations.
> This idiot was hating so much he took a
> Jab at a kid. Who cares why or how she got called to
> DA? Stop the hating on kids. At least let them turn 18 before you start talking smack


I'm sorry you see it as hate.  DA I thought was to try and find the "best of the best" and develop them into YNT players and some will make it to the big squad.  You can't do that if you promise everyone 25% starts and have some parents demand only one GK be on the team.  Parents have told DA Docs I must play up, CM and start every game or I will look elsewhere.  I guess I should have waited until their all 18 and then talk smack.  I wasn't talking smack on the kid btw just the dad, but if you truly see it like that I'm super sorry.  Everyone in the DA is getting what they want and that is not how you get the cream to rise to the top.  That is my opinion based on playing sports since I was 5.  Maybe the Girls DA has the formula that will take the USA girls soccer program to even higher level than ever before.  ECNL has no promises on starts.  You have to drive to Vegas and hope you get in the game.  That is college.  College has absolutely zero promises of starts last I heard.


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## focomoso (Sep 23, 2019)

Justus said:


> ...You can't do that if you promise everyone 25% starts...


Actually, that's the only way to develop players. No one gets better sitting on the bench. No one actually knows who from their pool are actually going to be world-class players, so you need to get everyone playing as much as possible.


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

focomoso said:


> Actually, that's the only way to develop players. No one gets better sitting on the bench. No one actually knows who from their pool are actually going to be world-class players, so you need to get everyone playing as much as possible.


Q @focomoso.  Are we talking about the ultimate goal of finding the "best of the best" girls soccer players in the USA?  I agree you can't have fun if you sit on the bench, that sucks.  I just don't believe you can "develop female soccer players" 14 or 15 year old's into world class girl soccer players that barely play and get to start 25% of all games.  1 out of 4 starts!  Now if you're trying to have kid playing in front of college coaches, build a business to  develop players into better student/athletes, then yes, 25% is very nice for those customers who need that guarantee.  We are talking about the USSF League right and it's stated goal to find the cream at the top?  If you're slow, you can NEVER get faster.  Parents spend $$$$$ to try and get their kid fast.  Impossible just like a player getting taller.  Ain't gonna happen.  Girls have to deal with genetics unlike most males.  Boys can get faster up to 21, not girls.  Girls can only hope they keep their speed when they were 13.  The only thing these coaches can "develop" is better humans, safe environment, be good teammates, pass the rock, striking a ball, dribbling a ball and of course, how to juggle for one hour alone and then another 30 minutes dribbling through cones with no defense.  A truthful coach trying to find the cream at the top will tell parents the truth.


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## Poconos (Sep 27, 2019)

Justus said:


> Q @focomosoBoys can get faster up to 21, not girls.  Girls can only hope they keep their speed when they were 13.


where did you get this?


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

Poconos said:


> where did you get this?


Genetics vs Development for girls.  It's one philosophy I was taught 4 years ago.  Girls become young woman and their bodies need to get ready to have babies.  Bigger hips and breast can cause one to slow down.


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## timbuck (Sep 27, 2019)

Justus said:


> Genetics vs Development for girls.  It's one philosophy I was taught 4 years ago.  Girls become young woman and their bodies need to get ready to have babies.  Bigger hips and breast can cause one to slow down.


You’re not wrong on how women develop.  But if you don’t think someone can get faster-  you have no idea what you are talking about.  Some girls grow taller with puberty and it takes them some time to adjust to their new body. 

Heck-  I have a friend who is in her 40s.  She’s always been pretty fit.  She is now in the process of qualifying for the Olympic trials in the marathon.  That requires world class speed and endurance.   She was fast 6 years ago.... but not world class.


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

timbuck said:


> You’re not wrong on how women develop.  But if you don’t think someone can get faster-  you have no idea what you are talking about.  Some girls grow taller with puberty and it takes them some time to adjust to their new body.
> 
> Heck-  I have a friend who is in her 40s.  She’s always been pretty fit.  She is now in the process of qualifying for the Olympic trials in the marathon.  That requires world class speed and endurance.   She was fast 6 years ago.... but not world class.


I trying to be careful with my words.  Let me explain:  Were talking about finding the future National Team players for woman to be clear here and why we have the USSF League in the first place.  If 10 is the highest level for world class girls soccer player and you're at a 6 at 14 years old, yes you can spend thousand of $$$$ to get to 6.5.  You will NEVER get to 8 and the odds of getting faster than 6.5 is bad because girls will gain weight and will need to work even harder to keep the new 6.5 speed score.  And that will 100% disqualify dd at the highest level.  I never ran a marathon but I'm not sure how fast you have to be.  Were talking 0-3 seconds and 0-5.  Not endurance.


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## focomoso (Sep 27, 2019)

Justus said:


> Q @focomoso.  Are we talking about the ultimate goal of finding the "best of the best" girls soccer players in the USA?  I agree you can't have fun if you sit on the bench, that sucks.  I just don't believe you can "develop female soccer players" 14 or 15 year old's into world class girl soccer players that barely play and get to start 25% of all games.  1 out of 4 starts!  Now if you're trying to have kid playing in front of college coaches, build a business to  develop players into better student/athletes, then yes, 25% is very nice for those customers who need that guarantee.  We are talking about the USSF League right and it's stated goal to find the cream at the top?  If you're slow, you can NEVER get faster.  Parents spend $$$$$ to try and get their kid fast.  Impossible just like a player getting taller.  Ain't gonna happen.  Girls have to deal with genetics unlike most males.  Boys can get faster up to 21, not girls.  Girls can only hope they keep their speed when they were 13.  The only thing these coaches can "develop" is better humans, safe environment, be good teammates, pass the rock, striking a ball, dribbling a ball and of course, how to juggle for one hour alone and then another 30 minutes dribbling through cones with no defense.  A truthful coach trying to find the cream at the top will tell parents the truth.


I'm much more versed on the boys side, but my point is that up to about 15 or 16 (or maybe even older), no one knows who is going to "make it" and who isn't. Puberty is a lottery and if you spend all your time developing the 15 best 12-year-olds, in 5 years, you may find that you've been developing the wrong kids. The 25% rule makes sure that some of the kids that aren't superstars at 12, but who have a chance to be at 16 get some high-level soccer.


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## focomoso (Sep 27, 2019)

Justus said:


> I trying to be careful with my words.  Let me explain:  Were talking about finding the future National Team players for woman to be clear here and why we have the USSF League in the first place.  If 10 is the highest level for world class girls soccer player and you're at a 6 at 14 years old, yes you can spend thousand of $$$$ to get to 6.5.  You will NEVER get to 8 and the odds of getting faster than 6.5 is bad because girls will gain weight and will need to work even harder to keep the new 6.5 speed score.  And that will 100% disqualify dd at the highest level.  I never ran a marathon but I'm not sure how fast you have to be.  Were talking 0-3 seconds and 0-5.  Not endurance.


To continue this. At least on the boys side, the 8s and 9s at 12 are rarely the 8s and 9s at 19. Often it's the 7s that have the chance to end up as 10s. Note all the European superstars who were cut from various top academies at 14 only to thrive in a "lower" system and come back better.


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

focomoso said:


> I'm much more versed on the boys side, but my point is that up to about 15 or 16 (or maybe even older), no one knows who is going to "make it" and who isn't. Puberty is a lottery and if you spend all your time developing the 15 best 12-year-olds, in 5 years, you may find that you've been developing the wrong kids. The 25% rule makes sure that some of the kids that aren't superstars at 12, but who have a chance to be at 16 get some high-level soccer.


There you go.  I agree on the boy side.  All good


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## timbuck (Sep 27, 2019)

I'd also argue that "fast" does not always mean "good soccer player". Sure, you can't be a turtle out there.  But a 40 yard dash time, a 3 mile run time or the beep test are not an indicator of someone being a great soccer player.  But at 10 years old, the fast kid will ALWAYS stand out as the "best" player on the field.  See how many times that player runs on to the end of a through ball only to donk it out of bounds with her 1st or 2nd touch.  Sure, she'll score 2 or 3 goals per game.  But nobody looks at the 15 times she blew it.


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## ToonArmy (Sep 27, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I'd also argue that "fast" does not always mean "good soccer player". Sure, you can't be a turtle out there.  But a 40 yard dash time, a 3 mile run time or the beep test are not an indicator of someone being a great soccer player.  But at 10 years old, the fast kid will ALWAYS stand out as the "best" player on the field.  See how many times that player runs on to the end of a through ball only to donk it out of bounds with her 1st or 2nd touch.  Sure, she'll score 2 or 3 goals per game.  But nobody looks at the 15 times she blew it.


I was thinking the same thing why are we only talking about speed and size with soccer development. This isn't the NFL


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I'd also argue that "fast" does not always mean "good soccer player". Sure, you can't be a turtle out there.  But a 40 yard dash time, a 3 mile run time or the beep test are not an indicator of someone being a great soccer player.  But at 10 years old, the fast kid will ALWAYS stand out as the "best" player on the field.  See how many times that player runs on to the end of a through ball only to donk it out of bounds with her 1st or 2nd touch.  Sure, she'll score 2 or 3 goals per game.  But nobody looks at the 15 times she blew it.


You have to have some speed 8 out of 10 and physical strength for girls, is huge at the highest levels of soccer.  Not talking college, talking all the best in the world.  That is why we have a girls DA, to find the best of the best.  Speed alone will not get you in but you better have it or be 5 10'


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

ToonArmy said:


> I was thinking the same thing why are we only talking about speed and size with soccer development. This isn't the NFL


World Cup teams only I'm talking about.  You can't develop speed or size.  So if you don't have either, most likely on the girls side ur toast.  It's reality.  300 D1 colleges and 3000 more colleges, no problem.  All who can run and kick a ball can play somewhere in college.


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## timbuck (Sep 27, 2019)

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2019/5/2/18526305/uswnt-roster-squad-2019-womens-world-cup
Article discusses the strengths of each player on the World Cup roster.  Speed is only mentioned 3 times.
None of these ladies are slow.  I bet there were players faster than many of them on their college teams.  And probably even some who have been called up to the national team, u23, u20, etc camps that they've attended.


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## Justus (Sep 27, 2019)

timbuck said:


> https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2019/5/2/18526305/uswnt-roster-squad-2019-womens-world-cup
> Article discusses the strengths of each player on the World Cup roster.  Speed is only mentioned 3 times.
> None of these ladies are slow.  I bet there were players faster than many of them on their college teams.  And probably even some who have been called up to the national team, u23, u20, etc camps that they've attended.


OK


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## blam (Sep 27, 2019)

Lesbians. A lot of them are lesbians.


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## outside! (Sep 27, 2019)

And straight to the ignore list.


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## way up (Oct 27, 2019)

This discussion started with an article about "joysticking". I think it was related mostly to parents, but I've read several other opinions in here that are even against "joysticking" coaches. I"m going to provide my experience and opinion and would like feedback to help me understand why so many are against active coaching/parenting when done with good fundamental knowledge.

My daughter plays club field soccer and futsal. Futsal delivers incredible development for instinct, touch, and precision, but this has to be applied to field play. Now, her futsal coach is extremely active during games with "joysticking", but she develops and grows tremendously from the active guidance. She will hear step on it, move, open up, pass, dribble, Scarlett is open, push up, etc. etc. My opinion is that she learns and develops much faster not just due to futsal, but to the "joysticking" that is teaching her constantly what to do.

Furthermore, we watch the older kids play with the same coach and active guidance "joysticking" who are absolutely amazing with their skills, possession, and control of the ball and game. They are amazing from the "joysticking" and constant repetition of "joysticking" to the point where the strategy and system is embedded in their heads. They also dominate in field soccer due to their incredible skills.

Her field soccer development is not nearly as active and her field soccer team does not have near the possession and control skill of her futsal team which even has younger players. I will also add that her futsal team does not have tons of rules and the need to order parents to not coach from the sideline. This whole winning is not what it's about and "joysticking" is bad philosophy just baffles the hell out of me.

Maybe every kid is different and some may be able to handle pressure and direction more than others? Maybe some of us parents don't want to spend 20 hours a week and thousands and thousands of dollars a year for love of the game she can get recreationally? Maybe kids need the constant direction on the field to help them advance and develop faster to compete against the best in their age which gives them advantage as they get older?

I know several kids that played club field soccer til they were 16 or 17 and quit, but not due to this burnout everyone mentions. They did the math and figured out that they were not going to play college soccer and were tired of spending so much time on soccer and not advancing. You reach an age where your time may be better spent academically or on something else. This is not burn out! This is reality and it hits others even younger.

Once they reach high school, they either make club teams or the high school team. NOT ALL THE GIRLS WILL! They do their math even earlier in age if they don't make either. Sure, the clubs have 3 maybe more flights now to gain more customers, but again, if the kids are spending 15 hours a week and not going to advance or graduate in the sport, reality sets in. THIS IS NOT BURNOUT! Now, for those that do burnout. They can and will regardless in many cases. Not everyone can handle the pressure and not everyone will make the team. These are just my opinions and life experiences I have noticed.

I think the parents need to see what works for their child and their child's psyche and passion is different than my childs. The bottom line is it gets more competitive and harder to keep advancing with the sport as they age. They have the psyche and skills to make it or they don't. It seems to me that some are more worried about burning out than advancing and building incredible skills that can be wasted with burning out. Let my child and her "joysticking" build something that is incredible enough to worry about getting burned out from first is my opinion. I'm not looking for a very expensive, time consuming hobby for my girl. I'd rather her do amazing in her education/work skills if she is not going to advance with the sport.

Also, isn't it weird how our kids are in school for an incredible amount of time, but noone worries about burning them out educationally??


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## SoccerJones (Dec 23, 2019)

ToonArmy said:


> I was thinking the same thing why are we only talking about speed and size with soccer development. This isn't the NFL


because thats the american mentality...speed and athleticism always trumps technical skill especially at the younger levels.


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## Jason DiDomenico (Dec 23, 2019)

SoccerJones said:


> because thats the american mentality...speed and athleticism always trumps technical skill especially at the younger levels.


You can't "teach" speed, size and athleticism. You CAN "teach" the technical skills. If two players are equal in ability, I think most would take the bigger/stronger player over the smaller/less physical player.


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## SoccerJones (Dec 24, 2019)

Jason DiDomenico said:


> You can't "teach" speed, size and athleticism. You CAN "teach" the technical skills. If two players are equal in ability, I think most would take the bigger/stronger player over the smaller/less physical player.


and that's why our men have never been a major player in the world.  Do you know the dutch have two national teams as do many European countries?  One is for kids who are have matured early and are super athletic and the second is for kids who haven't matured fully but exhibit great soccer IQ, technical and understand the game.  The senior team is sprinkled with kids growing up in both systems.  

How many times you see a guy who is as fast as Bolt yet has the touch of a rhinoceros?  It's more common than you think, especially at the college level.  I'll semi agree and say you can sometimes "teach" speed, size and athletic.  As for the technical skills, once you hit a certain age, it's MUCH harder to learn.  If a guy is superior in athleticism and equal in ability, then of course he/she will always win.  Im specifically talking about the stud at 10-12 years old that scored 10 goals and is a goliath but fizzles out because he/she wasn't taught "properly" at the younger age...do you disagree that a lot of clubs value wins vs. development?


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## messy (Dec 24, 2019)

I first received my rude awakening in how perennially lame soccer development  is in the US when my gifted U12 was benched for most of an important tournament match, telling me after the game that the coach said to him "you're too technical and this was a very physical match."


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## nobeastmode (Dec 24, 2019)

Jason DiDomenico said:


> You can't "teach" speed, size and athleticism. You CAN "teach" the technical skills. If two players are equal in ability, I think most would take the bigger/stronger player over the smaller/less physical player.


You CAN "teach" the technical skills but you CAN'T teach a player to have great technical skills. You can only enhance what a player already naturally has. If a player is gifted with speed, size and athleticism its not a given that you can teach them the technical skills. Any coach or parent can spot a player with speed, size and athleticism its not difficult. Give me the the player with great touch along with a high IQ and fluidity. If this player is also fast and athletic.. great! If not they can still be an amazing player. Pirlo was never fast , but playing without hesitation effectively makes him so. Pirlo would have never made it if he was a kid living in the United States. I'll leave a quote from an amazing youth coach on why the US struggles to find these creative players.
"There are cultural reasons why this does not happen as much in the US. Clubs sell themselves to these 8 year old kids based on they just won the state cup or something like that, so there is SO much importance placed on results in these young formative years, this leads to conservative tactics and coaches joystick coaching every single detail, the kids room for creative expression is eliminated, pressure is only heightened from the parents, coupled with the "safer" tactics of the coach who does long ball to avoid mistakes and it's a culmination of all this that is not conducive to developing exciting, creative players who are free to express themselves."


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## Soccerhelper (Dec 24, 2019)

Most Americans I know want to win and so does this guy. 1st place or nothing where I come from.  He freaking tossed his 2nd place metal.  That is a GOAT.  Big, Strong, Fast, Mentally Tough as nails, skilled and technical and has one of the strongest kicks in the world.  Messi is faster with the ball and it sticks to his cleat like no one I know so he gets a pass on the physical size challenge with the best.

If you want to be the best of da best then you better have it all and 99.5% of our kids DON'T have it all.  I know a guy who goes on tour doing amazing things with a soccer ball.  Kind of the like the Harlem Globetrotters.  This soccer dude is a stud.  I asked him why no pro and he said he wasn't quick enough or fast enough to play with da best.  If you watched Stanford play, I saw girls who had it ALL just like Mike Trout.  Just win baby!!!!


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## SoccerJones (Dec 24, 2019)

Soccerhelper said:


> Most Americans I know want to win and so does this guy. 1st place or nothing where I come from.  He freaking tossed his 2nd place metal.  That is a GOAT.  Big, Strong, Fast, Mentally Tough as nails, skilled and technical and has one of the strongest kicks in the world.  Messi is faster with the ball and it sticks to his cleat like no one I know so he gets a pass on the physical size challenge with the best.
> View attachment 6059
> If you want to be the best of da best then you better have it all and 99.5% of our kids DON'T have it all.  I know a guy who goes on tour doing amazing things with a soccer ball.  Kind of the like the Harlem Globetrotters.  This soccer dude is a stud.  I asked him why no pro and he said he wasn't quick enough or fast enough to play with da best.  If you watched Stanford play, I saw girls who had it ALL just like Mike Trout.  Just win baby!!!!


Stanford women are a good example of where the USNT needs to move towards...I was at the game and Stanford dominated the game from start to finish (maybe about the last 15 minutes of the first half UNC was on fire).  Posessed, diagonal runs, play out the back...UNC showed little signs of possession, but is more traditional kick and play.  

If Messi would have grown up in the USA, he would have easily been passed up for bigger, faster, and stronger players.  Winning NOW doesn't always equate to winning later..kinda willing the battle but not the war.


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## Soccerhelper (Dec 25, 2019)

SoccerJones said:


> Stanford women are a good example of where the USNT needs to move towards...I was at the game and Stanford dominated the game from start to finish (maybe about the last 15 minutes of the first half UNC was on fire).  Posessed, diagonal runs, play out the back...UNC showed little signs of possession, but is more traditional kick and play.
> 
> If Messi would have grown up in the USA, he would have easily been passed up for bigger, faster, and stronger players.  Winning NOW doesn't always equate to winning later..kinda willing the battle but not the war.


If Messi, Ronaldo or Pele or any of the GOATs lived here none of them would be a GOAT at soccer.  This place sucks to learn the game the right way. I've shared enough why that is true.  Firstly, to be a GOAT in soccer you probably need to be poor.  Not too many poor folks playing soccer at the "Elite" level here in DA States.  The poor can't afford to play club soccer.  Hell, I can't afford club soccer to be honest.  The parents want to win here  and winning trumps development.  Winning to most is getting kid in great school. For a few others, it's winning the actual game and beating out others for a starting spot while others get cut.  Find the winners and then develop them to be the best of the best.  Not all are winners.  BTW, I watched my first college cup on tv and I saw things differently but no need to argue about NCs play.  I say US Soccer hire the coach at Stanford and put him in charge of WNT and YNT.  He seems like a good guy.  Let him pick his players and the rest of the kids can focus on getting into college.  We also need someone on the Men's side to have 100% autonomy to hit the reset button and blow up the DA and try something else.  Men suck at soccer and this development stuff is not working were surely not getting better.  DA has everything to do with it too 100%.  The girls are next i'm afraid.


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## Soccerhelper (Dec 25, 2019)

$15,000 a year for high level Elite club soccer that goes on tour across the USA showing all to see the new girls in the developmental league.  Fact didn't believe me that DA is that expensive. Unlimited resources (that means lots of cash in DA bank) is hard to compete with if you're check to check or poor in the USA.  Listen to reason and then let's have some Hope for everyone to have equal access to the highest level of soccer and the YNT and WNT.


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## way up (Dec 27, 2019)

A couple things I consider in all this. First of all, The USWNT is pretty dominant. America is pretty top notch for women's global soccer, no?

Secondly, our best male athletes go towards higher paying, more popular American sports like football, basketball, baseball, and even hockey, no?

Thirdly, don't other countries play soccer, futsal, street soccer, etc. without coaches and such. Basically, they have a love of the game and play it on their own with or without organization. Soccer is not popular in America. This can change of course, but I don't fall for this aim for winning is killing the game here. We keep score for a reason and it's natural to want to win. Nothing wrong with that at all. Now, development and training are the time to experiment and make mistakes. 

Everyone talking about making youth soccer more affordable reminds me of those who want to make health care more affordable. Someone has to pay for it, so what becomes more affordable for some, makes it more costly for others. The more we try to fix things, the more we make things worse imo. I mean our whole economic growth with debt and monetary policy in The U.S. basically makes all of our mandatory, domestic costs of living even more expensive due to the growth of liquidity and inflation. It does not show up on the cpi index, because we get cheap products made globally now, but if its made here, it's damn expensive. Any attempt to make it cheaper through govt. funding makes it more funded and thus more expensive. 

I would love to see a club like soccer organization with decent coaching that focuses on basic fundamentals for the youth, but where the kids can play and learn to love the game without tryouts, traveling all over, and lots of expense. AYSO is not an option imo. It has to have some focus on keeping it competitive and trying to win is important not everything, but a goal. Good development and fundamentals lead to winning. Just some of my thoughts.


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## SoccerJones (Dec 27, 2019)

way up said:


> A couple things I consider in all this. First of all, The USWNT is pretty dominant. America is pretty top notch for women's global soccer, no?
> 
> Secondly, our best male athletes go towards higher paying, more popular American sports like football, basketball, baseball, and even hockey, no?
> 
> ...


First of all....

you make some good points.  There are only a hand few of clubs in CA (don't know much about other states) that take a true interest in developing the whole play and will take them where they're at (good or poor) and do the best to make them better.  of course everyone wants to win but at the youth level (U12-maybe younger-and under) it should be about, like you said, making it fun, falling in love with the game, and learning to be creative.  The reason why other countries are more successful isn't because their number 1 sport, but there are less adults "training" them at younger ages when it's just picking up a ball and going to  the par or playing on the street avoiding cars.  Americans have this idea that training more is better instead of just training better.  USA kids don't go out and play anymore and it's even more evident in affluent areas. 

AS for your making it affordable comment...paying for one year of soccer at some clubs is more than a ENTIRE year of having affordable healthcare. What clubs are doing in club soccer (other sports too) is damn near highway robbery.  7-14k a year for soccer without guarantee that you'll get a scholarship or NT invite in the end?  U12-U18 that's 42-84k for all those years.  It's easy for some parents to write a check and those are the kids you see on the WNT, YNT's.  Very rarely do you see kids from a low socio-economic place playing at that level due to not having access.  Yes out teams are dominant (women's) but that's because they have had a 30-40 year advantage of having title IX on their side and people invested in their future.  Many countries just started programs in the last 2 WC cycles.  We will not continue to be as dominant as we are unless things change.


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## way up (Dec 28, 2019)

SoccerJones said:


> First of all....
> 
> you make some good points.  There are only a hand few of clubs in CA (don't know much about other states) that take a true interest in developing the whole play and will take them where they're at (good or poor) and do the best to make them better.  of course everyone wants to win but at the youth level (U12-maybe younger-and under) it should be about, like you said, making it fun, falling in love with the game, and learning to be creative.  The reason why other countries are more successful isn't because their number 1 sport, but there are less adults "training" them at younger ages when it's just picking up a ball and going to  the par or playing on the street avoiding cars.  Americans have this idea that training more is better instead of just training better.  USA kids don't go out and play anymore and it's even more evident in affluent areas.
> 
> AS for your making it affordable comment...paying for one year of soccer at some clubs is more than a ENTIRE year of having affordable healthcare. What clubs are doing in club soccer (other sports too) is damn near highway robbery.  7-14k a year for soccer without guarantee that you'll get a scholarship or NT invite in the end?  U12-U18 that's 42-84k for all those years.  It's easy for some parents to write a check and those are the kids you see on the WNT, YNT's.  Very rarely do you see kids from a low socio-economic place playing at that level due to not having access.  Yes out teams are dominant (women's) but that's because they have had a 30-40 year advantage of having title IX on their side and people invested in their future.  Many countries just started programs in the last 2 WC cycles.  We will not continue to be as dominant as we are unless things change.


I'll start with what I agree with. Soccer is expensive in America like everything else. We only spend about $2,400 a year or so for U-9 for our club, but this involves a lot of time and driving. You're referring to DA and ECNL club teams probably with your 7k or more. To be perfectly honest, I think the parent has to love watching them play as much as the kid wants to play for club to be desirable. It's a big commitment for a parent in time and money.

Now, it gets more expensive and this is the trap I worry about. People are so concerned about their kids burning out, but if they are not top of class, what are their odds of college soccer? My kid needs to show me she has something to worry about getting burned out from before I worry about this burn out. Also, I'm willing to bte that the goal of most parents is college scholarship not pros. Other countries have pro programs where the kids devote their what would be education time into pro academy time. Math is important here. How much do pro-women make in soccer? Probably less than doctors, lawyers, and/or engineers? That's the goal in America. The good paying job, so most of us parents push academics and college education more than soccer. Soccer plus good academics is what leads to success imo. 

I think I'm trying to say that statistics show how good youth sports like soccer are for career success later and that is my #1 goal for my daughter. If my daughter happens to be blessed enough to be some future star (which I totally doubt!), I would wish she would use it to gain the high paying, secure job not so much pro soccer. Other countries do not have the prosperity that America has. The best option for success might very well be the pro soccer or something within soccer rather than the professional career that college soccer leads to??

Still, soccer is not a popular sport in America. You have to face that. Maybe it's gaining in popularity?? I don't know. Out of curiosity though, how would you lower the cost for teenage club soccer? Someone has to get paid to organize and build training programs. Noone is going to work for free. Club coaches usually have other jobs too. I mean I don't think anyone is cleaning up exactly. You're talking weekends, nights, and quite a bit of stress to boot for these clubs. 

Throw in computers and electronic gadgets and kids are spending even less time playing sports, so it may take parental influence to keep them in soccer. America has challenges ahead, but like everything, it's up to the parent to motivate and encourage imo. The kids play soccer and the parents play the game. LOL! We shall see what happens, but I do agree that cheaper alternatives besides AYSO would be nice. Probably not going to happen due to liability, fields, and the usual red tape when money is involved.


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## Giesbock (Dec 28, 2019)

In Germany, kids are not just running around playing pick up jungle ball soccer.  They are getting top notch, pro training from 5 years old on.

Iceland, and all of Europe, same approach. Only credentialed coaches work with 5 year olds.

Here in the US, it’s volunteer moms and dads that have never played soccer themselves who are teaching the 5 year olds.  For baseball, football and basketball, it’s always someone who has actually played the game, so they get good fundamental early instruction.

Over generations, we’ll get there but it’s gonna be a long road to catch up, even with growing numbers playing.

Disclaimer: I never played the game; just learning vicariously through my kid playing!


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## way up (Dec 28, 2019)

Giesbock said:


> In Germany, kids are not just running around playing pick up jungle ball soccer.  They are getting top notch, pro training from 5 years old on.
> 
> Iceland, and all of Europe, same approach. Only credentialed coaches work with 5 year olds.
> 
> ...


Interesting! But is that pro-training donated or who pays the trainers? Don't they also have academies in Europe and elsewhere where teenagers focus 100% on soccer. In America, our teenagers still focus a lot on academics as well and, again, college is academic plus soccer. Isn't it possible that American young adults and upper teenagers are mixing their soccer training with academics more so than the rest of the world? I'm asking, because I don't know. I think it's possible Americans are more focused on using soccer and other sports for that matter for gaining college education rather than going pro especially considering the odds of going pro in most sports.


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## Giesbock (Dec 28, 2019)

Yeah fair points about who pays the trainers...probably subsidized vis a vis higher taxes / better social safety net than we have here.  But I don’t know that for sure!

Also correct and fair point about academies. They’re molding future pros.  German universities have NO athletic programs, so once a young player embarks on the athletic pathway, academics go by the wayside.  If someone doesn’t reach the Bundesliga pinnacle, they don’t have an education to fall back on...So that may be another significant difference between US and German soccer landscape.


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 28, 2019)

Giesbock said:


> Yeah fair points about who pays the trainers...probably subsidized vis a vis higher taxes / better social safety net than we have here.  But I don’t know that for sure!
> 
> Also correct and fair point about academies. They’re molding future pros.  German universities have NO athletic programs, so once a young player embarks on the athletic pathway, academics go by the wayside.  If someone doesn’t reach the Bundesliga pinnacle, they don’t have an education to fall back on...So that may be another significant difference between US and German soccer landscape.


Can not speak for Germany, but in France all players no matter what age are put into a data base and tracked. Their Federation keeps a tab on the youth development, movement, affiliation, etc.


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## SoccerJones (Dec 29, 2019)

Imagine this...a club coach (you pick your sport) comes to a low income city (by accident-play with me here) to try to start a program.  he/she/they has great credential as do most of the coaches on his staff.  Then, after running a few sessions he tells kids/families that it's gonna cost anywhere from 7k-10k depending on what program they decide to attend.  By this time, word has spread of this new coach that's running these amazing technical/tactical sessions and is going to be the next great big thing...

Who's gonna pay that kind of money?  it'll be the affluential people from the burbs.  meanwhile there's a segment that's left out because they can't play the game INSIDE the game.  In all seriousness...whats even more sad and this is coming top down is our national team.  Out of the 12 spots for YNT's (boy and girls) there are 2 of 12 spots that are currently filled and it's been a while since any of them have been filled.  The people making the decisions for soccer here in the USA have no idea what they're doing...blind leading deaf


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## messy (Dec 29, 2019)

Found this article...I wonder if USSF spends $68mm per year on our youth development...

Between 2001 and 2011 professional teams in Germany spent ~$681 million on the development of youth soccer, according to the Bundesliga report. At the same time, the German Football Association - the body that controls the national team itself - started its own $13-million per year youth initiative. According to the New York Times, there are now 366 German FA-operated youth centers in the country, which serve 25,000 kids.


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## timbuck (Dec 29, 2019)

The big difference there is that the German pro clubs are the ones spending the majority of that money. Not the German federation. 
Why would Bayern, Schalke, etc invest that kind of money in youth soccer?
Because they make that money back in solidarity payments and training compensation.


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## way up (Dec 29, 2019)

It is what it is pretty much. I will say that The USWNT could not fill up a college football stadium (in a friendly) and they are basically the most dominant, female international team with back to back WC wins. College football not only fills the stadium up, but could probably keep filling if there were more seats. American Football programs in high school and above help fund and pay for other school extra curriculars from what I hear. American Football is popular and people pay to see it. Have you seen the stands in college soccer for the men and the women? Very light! Money talks and someone has to come up with it. Not it! I have my own daughter's training to pay for. Again, it comes down to math and economics.


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## SoccerJones (Feb 25, 2020)

way up said:


> It is what it is pretty much. I will say that The USWNT could not fill up a college football stadium (in a friendly) and they are basically the most dominant, female international team with back to back WC wins. College football not only fills the stadium up, but could probably keep filling if there were more seats. American Football programs in high school and above help fund and pay for other school extra curriculars from what I hear. American Football is popular and people pay to see it. Have you seen the stands in college soccer for the men and the women? Very light! Money talks and someone has to come up with it. Not it! I have my own daughter's training to pay for. Again, it comes down to math and economics.


It really depends on the football program.  There's only a handful of college program (top to bottom) that come out in the black at the end of the season.  Schools with dominant football programs do get a ton of money but so do the ones with good hoop programs.  There's a reason why there are headcount teams and # of scholarship teams.  For the most part, the head count teams generate the most money in college sports.  I mean think about it...

Basketball: 5 plays at a time-15 head count scholarships
Football: 11 play at a time- 54 head count scholarships 
Volleyball: 6 play-12 scholarships
Baseball: 9 play 11.7 scholarships
Soccer: 11 play, 14 scholarships

It's pretty simple..basketball and football are king of college sports and volleyball, gymnastics, and tennis round out the bunch so that title IX is compliant.  There are some schools that pack the soccer stands for both women and mens teams.  Stanford, Santa Clara, UNC, Virginia are some of the schools that I've seen where they have a great college environment.  But not all programs are equal lol


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## focomoso (Feb 25, 2020)

SoccerJones said:


> It really depends on the football program.  There's only a handful of college program (top to bottom) that come out in the black at the end of the season.  Schools with dominant football programs do get a ton of money but so do the ones with good hoop programs.  There's a reason why there are headcount teams and # of scholarship teams.  For the most part, the head count teams generate the most money in college sports.  I mean think about it...
> 
> Basketball: 5 plays at a time-15 head count scholarships
> Football: 11 play at a time- 54 head count scholarships
> ...


Where did you get these numbers? Top football programs, of which there are 120, have 85 full scholarships. The next 125 schools have 63. Division II has 36. 

Men's DI soccer has only 9.9 total scholarships (that are usually spread out). Even Lacrosse has more. The 14 are only for women. 

See: http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html


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## SoccerJones (Feb 26, 2020)

focomoso said:


> Where did you get these numbers? Top football programs, of which there are 120, have 85 full scholarships. The next 125 schools have 63. Division II has 36.
> 
> Men's DI soccer has only 9.9 total scholarships (that are usually spread out). Even Lacrosse has more. The 14 are only for women.
> 
> See: http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html


The numbers are off but that's not the point...the point was the economics and the state of college soccer with regards to scholarship and numbers. A lot of D1 schools don't carry 15 basketball players on a roster and don't use the full 15 where as with women's soccer, the 14 (in my opinion) is way too low with how many are actually on a roster.


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## Poconos (Mar 3, 2020)

Cruyff was unlike most.  He was the best.  



younothat said:


> "Johan Cruyff, the Dutch forward widely regarded as one of the greatest soccer players in history, once said, "I trained about 3-4 hours a week at Ajax when I was little. But I played 3-4 hours every da


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