# Things going down at Cal....



## SoccerJones (Nov 22, 2020)

KTVU has an investigative piece on the Cal Women's Soccer program.  It's NOT good









						Surviving the Game: Allegations of abuse in Cal's soccer program
					

Women from UC Berkeley's soccer team break their silence about what they allege was emotional abuse, bullying, intimidation, and mistreatment from their long-time coach.




					www.ktvu.com


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## kickingandscreaming (Nov 22, 2020)

SoccerJones said:


> KTVU has an investigative piece on the Cal Women's Soccer program.  It's NOT good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I expect to see more and more of these types of allegations. Behaviors from those in leadership positions that were acceptable in the past are no longer tolerated.


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## Airborn (Nov 22, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I expect to see more and more of these types of allegations. Behaviors from those in leadership positions that were acceptable in the past are no longer tolerated.


This explains a lot.  Like why Cal could never make it past the first round of the NCAA's despite having some of the best recruiting classes in the country.  McGuire consistently takes great players and turns them into mediocre teams.  Now we know why.


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## crush (Nov 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I expect to see more and more of these types of allegations. Behaviors from those in leadership positions that were acceptable in the past are no longer tolerated.


Treating little girls and young woman like this is sad.  It's just a soccer game and some girls love to just play the game.  Some have dreams to play the game and then it all turns into a nightmare.


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## tjsoccer (Nov 23, 2020)

Airborn said:


> This explains a lot.  Like why Cal could never make it past the first round of the NCAA's despite having some of the best recruiting classes in the country.  McGuire consistently takes great players and turns them into mediocre teams.  Now we know why.


Yeah, I agree.  Some will roll their eyes..."kids are too soft these days"...but the reality is that this sort of coaching isn't really effective for athletes that have trained their whole life in a single sport.  

There is a hole in the system that should be fixed.  Coaches are incentivized to get under performing scholarship athletes to quit so they can recoup the  money.


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## MacDre (Nov 23, 2020)

Unfortunate.  But I think the coaches at Cal have been honest with me about the heartbreak many players experience upon arriving at Cal.  For many, it’s the first time they have been told no and are not the star of their team.  Riding the bench is a bitter pill to swallow for many kids and parents.

Over the past 6 years I have talked to several Cal “starters” and I have not heard any of the type of complaints mentioned in the article. And a couple of their starters last year definitely had weight problems-not sure if Neil was tactful when raising the issue or not.

I guess I am surprised that folks are unaware of the process and the cutthroat nature of competitive sports.  Again, in my limited situation Cal has been honest with me about what to expect upon arrival.

Is this really any different from other major competitive programs?  I’ve seen players disappear at Stanford, sexual harassment at UNC, and a sink or swim culture at FSU...IDK is this really news?  Seriously?


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## Soccer43 (Nov 23, 2020)

For me it is less about the cutthroat nature and being tough and more about being smart about what makes a player and team successful.  Boys/men are pushed to excellence by this approach.  Girls/women are driven to success when they have comraderie with their teammates, are supported, pushed in a competitive environment, and are treated with respect with consistent, clear messages about the expectations.  My older daughter had three coaches like this - they each took medium of the pack teams and made them into championship programs.  Being a bully and demeaning women and tearing them down only makes them emotional and get into their head too much, questioning themselves and feeling inadequate never leads to success.  How many of these male coaches have ever taken any training in female psychology to understand what works?


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## Soccerfan2 (Nov 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Unfortunate.  But I think the coaches at Cal have been honest with me about the heartbreak many players experience upon arriving at Cal.  For many, it’s the first time they have been told no and are not the star of their team.  Riding the bench is a bitter pill to swallow for many kids and parents.
> 
> Over the past 6 years I have talked to several Cal “starters” and I have not heard any of the type of complaints mentioned in the article. And a couple of their starters last year definitely had weight problems-not sure if Neil was tactful when raising the issue or not.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective. One of the letters was written by a starter. My dd had a coach who was “tough”, but she never felt degraded by that coach. Others on the team did. Because she didn’t have the experience personally didn’t make it less true for others. 
While I wouldn’t draw firm conclusions from the article or the letters, this is information to consider and I’m glad it was shared. A college coach can have a big influence on the life of a young person. We parents have the very important job of making sure the people we put our kids under are worthy of that privilege and responsibility.


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## MacDre (Nov 23, 2020)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Interesting perspective. One of the letters was written by a starter. My dd had a coach who was “tough”, but she never felt degraded by that coach. Others on the team did. Because she didn’t have the experience personally didn’t make it less true for others.
> While I wouldn’t draw firm conclusions from the article or the letters, this is information to consider and I’m glad it was shared. A college coach can have a big influence on the life of a young person. We parents have the very important job of making sure the people we put our kids under are worthy of that privilege and responsibility.


I agree 100%.  I guess my point is that I think parents should take a more active role in the process.  Question everything and everyone.  I have never understood the mentality of leaving young adults on their own to navigate and negotiate their relationship with a very powerful and experienced coach.  Whenever and wherever there is a gross inequity of bargaining power you’ll find abuse.


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## Dubs (Nov 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Unfortunate.  But I think the coaches at Cal have been honest with me about the heartbreak many players experience upon arriving at Cal.  For many, it’s the first time they have been told no and are not the star of their team.  Riding the bench is a bitter pill to swallow for many kids and parents.
> 
> Over the past 6 years I have talked to several Cal “starters” and I have not heard any of the type of complaints mentioned in the article. And a couple of their starters last year definitely had weight problems-not sure if Neil was tactful when raising the issue or not.
> 
> ...


My reaction is very similar to yours, but my question is, what will come out of this?  Does he get let go?  Either way, it would seem that if he stays, he'll have to be a lot more careful regarding these tactics with players.


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## MacDre (Nov 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> For me it is less about the cutthroat nature and being tough and more about being smart about what makes a player and team successful.  Boys/men are pushed to excellence by this approach.  Girls/women are driven to success when they have comraderie with their teammates, are supported, pushed in a competitive environment, and are treated with respect with consistent, clear messages about the expectations.  My older daughter had three coaches like this - they each took medium of the pack teams and made them into championship programs.  Being a bully and demeaning women and tearing them down only makes them emotional and get into their head too much, questioning themselves and feeling inadequate never leads to success.  How many of these male coaches have ever taken any training in female psychology to understand what works?


I agree that the approach to working with females is different.  But, there’s also the part that many of these women are experiencing failure for the first time in their life and the sh*t hurts.  This failure is gonna happen for most regardless of the coach.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 23, 2020)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Interesting perspective. One of the letters was written by a starter. My dd had a coach who was “tough”, but she never felt degraded by that coach. Others on the team did. Because she didn’t have the experience personally didn’t make it less true for others.
> While I wouldn’t draw firm conclusions from the article or the letters, this is information to consider and I’m glad it was shared. A college coach can have a big influence on the life of a young person. We parents have the very important job of making sure the people we put our kids under are worthy of that privilege and responsibility.


to your point, there's a HUGE difference between being a tough coach (holding players to high expectations) and being an ass of a coach-yelling, cussing, threatening, etc.  My daughter has friends and former teammates at Cal and while they like going to school, they did say he was tough to play for and can be belligerent at times.  I think that's pretty par for college coaches.  it's when the attacks become personal, that's where it crosses the line.


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## soccer4us (Nov 23, 2020)

Dubs said:


> My reaction is very similar to yours, but my question is, what will come out of this?  Does he get let go?  Either way, it would seem that if he stays, he'll have to be a lot more careful regarding these tactics with players.


One thing I bet that comes out of this is no more walk ons at CAL especially if the staff stays on which appears to be the case since this has been going on for over a year with the investigation to any wrong doing. I think CAL have done their investigations for awhile now and decided nothing happened that would consist in a firing. I have no clue what happened but their are always 2 sides to the story. We'll see what happens In the coming weeks or when litigation is over to see if Coach talks and/or supporters of his.


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## Dubs (Nov 23, 2020)

soccer4us said:


> One thing I bet that comes out of this is no more walk ons at CAL especially if the staff stays on which appears to be the case since this has been going on for over a year with the investigation to any wrong doing. I think CAL have done their investigations for awhile now and decided nothing happened that would consist in a firing. I have no clue what happened but their are always 2 sides to the story. We'll see what happens In the coming weeks or when litigation is over to see if Coach talks and/or supporters of his.


Agree.


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## dad4 (Nov 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I agree that the approach to working with females is different.  But, there’s also the part that many of these women are experiencing failure for the first time in their life and the sh*t hurts.  This failure is gonna happen for most regardless of the coach.


You think those girls reached 18 without ever having a losing season?  Or missing the cut for YNT?

Not likely.  Maybe they were the only one to score in the 9-1 loss, but I don’t think it’s their first experience with failure.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment that excessive power differentials lead to abusive relationships.  True well beyond sports.


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## EOTL (Nov 23, 2020)

Without more specifics, I’m not seeing how the incidents identified justify the article’s tone or conclusions. Did he handle some things poorly over the last 10 years? Sure. Does it explain why Cal hasn’t gone far in the tournament? Maybe. Should he have done a better job managing different personalities to avoid a minor mutiny by a few players? Yes. But do his actions constitute abuse? It doesn’t seem close to me unless there’s a lot more than what is described in the piece.

Articles like this are frustrating because they reach  severe conclusions of “physical and emotional abuse” based on minimal substance that doesn’t really support the conclusion. In fact, I get the distinct impression the authors reached a conclusion first and then tried to backfill it with “facts” that don’t measure up, so they loaded the article up with a lot of hyperbole. 

For example, I didn’t see a single fact identifying what was said to justify the fat shaming allegation. WRT the “physical abuse”, there’s an allegation that one player felt dizzy running sprints, complained, and he brought the trainer. Big deal. And there’s the hyperbolically named “raingate” in which he allegedly overworked players once for disregarding his instruction not to practice in the rain. It doesn’t appear anyone passed out, no one apparently puked, no one needed medical attention and, despite some of their allegations that the AD never did anything about any of their complaints, the article says it did and it found it to be in compliance. This is the centerpiece incident of an article that claims a coach is physically abusive?  C’mon. 

The term “emotional abuse” is slippery and often in the eye of the beholder, but I don’t think the allegations here get close to that standard. One silly example used to support “emotional abuse” is he punished the entire team for engaging in a hazing incident with 50 hours of community service (good right?), but also included the freshmen. Was that a bad idea? Maybe, although I can see why he would, especially if the article isn’t telling the full story about this hazing/party. But is that emotional abuse? No. Is being moody, dropping an f bomb, yelling during a half time speech, yelling at a player who didn’t seem to be paying attention during film study, and blaming a player for costing them the game poor coaching? Probably some if it. Was it counter-productive as a means to motivate them? Obviously. Was it emotionally abusive? I don’t see it that way especially since that’s the worst the tv station’s year long investigation spanning a 10 year period “uncovered”. Seriously, if that is the worst of his behavior in 10 years and he gets fired over it, pretty much every coach in every sport also needs to go and Greg Baker deserves the electric chair.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Without more specifics, I’m not seeing how the incidents identified justify the article’s tone or conclusions. Did he handle some things poorly over the last 10 years? Sure. Does it explain why Cal hasn’t gone far in the tournament? Maybe. Should he have done a better job managing different personalities to avoid a minor mutiny by a few players? Yes. But do his actions constitute abuse? It doesn’t seem close to me unless there’s a lot more than what is described in the piece.
> 
> Articles like this are frustrating because they reach  severe conclusions of “physical and emotional abuse” based on minimal substance that doesn’t really support the conclusion. In fact, I get the distinct impression the authors reached a conclusion first and then tried to backfill it with “facts” that don’t measure up, so they loaded the article up with a lot of hyperbole.
> 
> ...


The video gave way more detail into the alleged abuses that happened during their time at Cal.


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## EOTL (Nov 23, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> The video gave way more detail into the alleged abuses that happened during their time at Cal.


Yeah, I watched it. I also read the attached statements. The portions of the interviews that were shown largely consisted of soundbites of their opinions/conclusions without nearly enough factual support to justify them, coupled with emotional displays to generate sympathy. I don’t say negative things about individual players but since they sought out this publicity, I will go so far as to say I could certainly critique those who were interviewed.


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## Keepermom2 (Nov 23, 2020)

What was most disturbing to me was the in office visits that were described as emotional abuse with them leaving in tears feeling demeaned and teammates knowing the result of the in office visit before it occurred.  That type of coaching doesn't work at all with this generation and corporations have changed their approach because of it.    If that would happen in Corporate America today, law suits would be flying.  I have reviewed cases for a lot less.  It is still very hard to sue an educational institution.

Another disturbing part of this is that there was never a report issued by the school to any of the players that complained.  That goes against civil rights laws and if they did complain to the Office of Civil Rights, that could result in an investigation by the Office of Civil Rights depending on how the complaint was worded. 

The oversight is the big glaring problem and is consistent with all education.  Education systems are way behind the times.


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## Keepermom2 (Nov 23, 2020)

I wonder if all of these girls stick by their letters of intent after seeing the story.....









						Cal women's soccer reveals top-ranked recruiting class
					

Cal has the No. 1 ranked class in the nation.




					www.soccerwire.com


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## Soccer43 (Nov 23, 2020)

This coaches actions led to a dozen girls contracting a serious life threatening illness and he is still the head coach so I guess those girls just needed to suck it up and be tougher as a D1 athlete and not complain:


University of Houston

Without medical treatment you can die from this


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## outside! (Nov 23, 2020)

Hmmm, this brings to mind a phrase I heard. Something about "believe the women".

Top level school with great recruiting classes year after year
Great location
Consistent under-performance
Multiple women coming forward with accusations

Smoke = fire?
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark?


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## dad4 (Nov 23, 2020)

The NCAA scholarship and transfer rules do a lot to trap players at abusive programs.

Allow at will transfers, and you'll see less of this.

Or, if you can, fund your kids college yourself.  That way your kid can afford to leave a bad coach mid season if necessary.


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## tjsoccer (Nov 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Was it emotionally abusive? I don’t see it that way especially since that’s the worst the tv station’s year long investigation spanning a 10 year period “uncovered”. Seriously, if that is the worst of his behavior in 10 years and he gets fired over it, pretty much every coach in every sport also needs to go and Greg Baker deserves the electric chair.


The incident below happened 11 years ago....not abuse, but definitely points to an emotionally unstable coach.  But overall, I agree with you.  Throwing around terms like "abusive" shouldn't be done lightly.  With what has been presented, the question should be whether or not his tactics get the best out his players and his team....not whether he should be called an abuser.  But he has probably created an environment that is difficult to succeed in, and the players were just fed up with it.  

"Last weekend, the Cal women's soccer season took a turn for the worse, or rather, the bizarre.

Following a 1-0 loss to perennially mediocre Sacramento State last Friday afternoon, coach Neil McGuire allegedly told his team that he was stepping down from his post.

McGuire was not present for Saturday's practice or Sunday's 1-1 double-overtime draw with No. 15 Santa Clara due to the need to attend to "personal business," according to a press release from Cal Athletics. Yesterday afternoon, he said that he did not want to comment on what happened over the weekend.

"It's in the past now," McGuire said.

Immediately following the post-game events Friday, leading goal scorer and usually diplomatic forward Alex Morgan posted the following message on her Twitter:

"You turned your back on us once we can and will turn our backs on you for good. You are not welcome back." "






						McGuire's About-Face Casts Questions Over Oregon Trip - The Daily Californian
					






					archive.dailycal.org


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## EOTL (Nov 23, 2020)

outside! said:


> Hmmm, this brings to mind a phrase I heard. Something about "believe the women".
> 
> Top level school with great recruiting classes year after year
> Great location
> ...


This is exactly why I don’t like articles like these. The inability to identify any specific statement or action that is actually abusive shouldn’t be used to speculate that maybe he did something abusive despite their inability to find it. The headline has gotten people using Shakespeare cliches and in a tizzy over much ado about nothing.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 23, 2020)

tjsoccer said:


> The incident below happened 11 years ago....not abuse, but definitely points to an emotionally unstable coach.  But overall, I agree with you.  Throwing around terms like "abusive" shouldn't be done lightly.  With what has been presented, the question should be whether or not his tactics get the best out his players and his team....not whether he should be called an abuser.  But he has probably created an environment that is difficult to succeed in, and the players were just fed up with it.
> 
> "Last weekend, the Cal women's soccer season took a turn for the worse, or rather, the bizarre.
> 
> ...


WOW!


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## Calisoccer11 (Nov 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> For me it is less about the cutthroat nature and being tough and more about being smart about what makes a player and team successful.  Boys/men are pushed to excellence by this approach.  Girls/women are driven to success when they have comraderie with their teammates, are supported, pushed in a competitive environment, and are treated with respect with consistent, clear messages about the expectations.  My older daughter had three coaches like this - they each took medium of the pack teams and made them into championship programs.  Being a bully and demeaning women and tearing them down only makes them emotional and get into their head too much, questioning themselves and feeling inadequate never leads to success.  How many of these male coaches have ever taken any training in female psychology to understand what works?


1000%!


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## outside! (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This is exactly why I don’t like articles like these. The inability to identify any specific statement or action that is actually abusive shouldn’t be used to speculate that maybe he did something abusive despite their inability to find it. The headline has gotten people using Shakespeare cliches and in a tizzy over much ado about nothing.


Many of the former and current players at Cal do not think it is "nothing". The fact that "they" could not find the abuse does not mean it did not happen. Because of the power imbalance between the organization and the players, it could very well mean that the coach and athletic director are just good at covering up. It could also mean the athletic department and or school administration have never really investigated all of the past claims given that none of the players were ever interviewed as part of an investigation. The fact that many players are willing to come forward despite the risks involved points to an abusive environment. Hopefully this results in a change in leadership for the team and athletic department.

Besides all of that, I am surprised the athletic director did not replace the coach a long time ago given their quality of their recruits and the poor performance of the team. Smells like a good old boy club.


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## dad4 (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This is exactly why I don’t like articles like these. The inability to identify any specific statement or action that is actually abusive shouldn’t be used to speculate that maybe he did something abusive despite their inability to find it. The headline has gotten people using Shakespeare cliches and in a tizzy over much ado about nothing.


Including the hazing victims when you punish the team for hazing?   That is specific enough for me.  

The message seems pretty clear- he was not punishing the team for forcing unwilling people to drink vodka to the point of alcohol poisoning.  He was punishing the team for getting caught.  So he also punished the freshmen because he wanted to be sure to punish the whistleblower.

Now, if you want to deal with the hazing, you start pulling scholarships and finish the season with walk-ons if necessary.  But that obviously wasn’t his goal.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

outside! said:


> Many of the former and current players at Cal do not think it is "nothing". The fact that "they" could not find the abuse does not mean it did not happen. Because of the power imbalance between the organization and the players, it could very well mean that the coach and athletic director are just good at covering up. It could also mean the athletic department and or school administration have never really investigated all of the past claims given that none of the players were ever interviewed as part of an investigation. The fact that many players are willing to come forward despite the risks involved points to an abusive environment. Hopefully this results in a change in leadership for the team and athletic department.
> 
> Besides all of that, I am surprised the athletic director did not replace the coach a long time ago given their quality of their recruits and the poor performance of the team. Smells like a good old boy club.


You’re just speculating and are easily manipulated if you think the lack of real evidence means there is a cover-up. You also have unrealistic expectations about what deserves to get fired. Making the tournament 12 of 13 years and your players graduating is plenty good enough.  Women’s soccer is not USC or Notre Dame football, nor should it be. 
Oh, and “many” players did not come forward. There were what, six over an investigation spanning 10 years. Please.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Including the hazing victims when you punish the team for hazing?   That is specific enough for me.
> 
> The message seems pretty clear- he was not punishing the team for forcing unwilling people to drink vodka to the point of alcohol poisoning.  He was punishing the team for getting caught.  So he also punished the freshmen because he wanted to be sure to punish the whistleblower.
> 
> Now, if you want to deal with the hazing, you start pulling scholarships and finish the season with walk-ons if necessary.  But that obviously wasn’t his goal.


Wow, you are nuts. How’d you come up with “drink[ing] to the point of alcohol poisoning”?  How do you know there was even a whistleblower, as opposed to the coach finding out from another source?  

“Punishing the team for getting caught”?  What kind of idiotic statement is that? You are seriously claiming that he knew what was going on and would not have imposed 50 hours of community service for each of them had no one complained?  And who, exactly, did complain?

What, exactly happened at this party?  Were the freshman included in the punishment because they complained, or because they were at a party they should not have been at?  Were they also underage drinking outside of this alleged hazing incident?

Are you saying that 50 hours of community service is woefully insufficient for first time offenders?

Look, you have no idea what happened or why. This is why articles like this one are so irresponsible.  It duped easily manipulated people into forming opinions when they have no idea what they’re talking about.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Wow, you are nuts. How’d you come up with “drink[ing] to the point of alcohol poisoning”?  How do you know there was even a whistleblower, as opposed to the coach finding out from another source?
> 
> “Punishing the team for getting caught”?  What kind of idiotic statement is that? You are seriously claiming that he knew what was going on and would not have imposed 50 hours of community service for each of them had no one complained?  And who, exactly, did complain?
> 
> ...


I don't have a dog in this race but have heard that since this was aired, a lot of people have been coming forward with details about not only the Cal program, but the ways things were handled at Mustang.  From the looks of it, this is only the beginning.  Not sure what will come out of this other than the coach will have some major reflecting on how he coaches from here on out.


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## outside! (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You’re just speculating and are easily manipulated if you think the lack of real evidence means there is a cover-up. You also have unrealistic expectations about what deserves to get fired. Making the tournament 12 of 13 years and your players graduating is plenty good enough.  Women’s soccer is not USC or Notre Dame football, nor should it be.
> Oh, and “many” players did not come forward. There were what, six over an investigation spanning 10 years. Please.


Wow, sorry, you are so right. Obviously there is nothing wrong at Cal. I am sure Alex Morgan agrees with you.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> I don't have a dog in this race but have heard that since this was aired, a lot of people have been coming forward with details about not only the Cal program, but the ways things were handled at Mustang.  From the looks of it, this is only the beginning.  Not sure what will come out of this other than the coach will have some major reflecting on how he coaches from here on out.


Here we go again. This is going to be very much like all the speculation and conspiracy theories at this forum about Cromwell during the Singer scandal.  Lots of conclusions and innuendo, with none of the facts.

As I said during that sad online saga, people’s careers and the futures of many students - including those who are there right now and committed - will be potentially impacted in very serious ways. Your speculation A, and that of the others here, seems like fun and games in the petty youth soccer crowd, but it is irresponsible.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Here we go again. This is going to be very much like all the speculation and conspiracy theories at this forum about Cromwell during the Singer scandal.  Lots of conclusions and innuendo, with none of the facts.
> 
> As I said during that sad online saga, people’s careers and the futures of many students - including those who are there right now and committed - will be potentially impacted in very serious ways. Your speculation A, and that of the others here, seems like fun and games in the petty youth soccer crowd, but it is irresponsible.


your refusal to acknowledge ANY wrong doing is just as irresponsible.  Innocent until proven guilty but the facts have to come out.  If there is a pattern as suggested by the Alex Morgan tweet suggests, this kind of behavior could be seen as common at Cal.  Not saying it's true and there's two sides to every story.  This is not fun nor is it a game.


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## watfly (Nov 24, 2020)

At this point we're all just speculating and of course the "reporter" is going to make it seem as hyperbolic as possible, its the new "journalism".  I agree with the thoughts that whether this was abuse, or not, the other question is whether this style of coaching is effective, particularly for women.  I'm not opposed to tough love, but it should be used strategically and sparingly for it to be motivating.  Used otherwise it just becomes fear based and players become afraid to make a mistake which doesn't enhance their performance.  Or it just becomes ignored depending on the individual.

Long before they're in college, I think we should be raising our daughters (and sons) to have both a thick skin and a strong sense of self worth.  Our young ladies need the strength to stand up for themselves when the situation warrants.


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## dad4 (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Here we go again. This is going to be very much like all the speculation and conspiracy theories at this forum about Cromwell during the Singer scandal.  Lots of conclusions and innuendo, with none of the facts.
> 
> As I said during that sad online saga, people’s careers and the futures of many students - including those who are there right now and committed - will be potentially impacted in very serious ways. Your speculation A, and that of the others here, seems like fun and games in the petty youth soccer crowd, but it is irresponsible.


No need to speculate.

We have a clear case of hazing with potentially fatal consequences, and a clear failure of the coach to properly deal with it.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> your refusal to acknowledge ANY wrong doing is just as irresponsible.  Innocent until proven guilty but the facts have to come out.  If there is a pattern as suggested by the Alex Morgan tweet suggests, this kind of behavior could be seen as common at Cal.  Not saying it's true and there's two sides to every story.  This is not fun nor is it a game.


Go back and read what I said, because you are lying that I didn’t admit that he did something wrong.

The Alex Morgan tweet and that incident was 12 years ago and has absolutely nothing to do with “abuse”.  The fact that you and others ate bringing that up, as well as what you consider a lack of success that deserves getting fired, shows how you’ve got your tiki torches out for this witch hunt.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> No need to speculate.
> 
> We have a clear case of hazing with potentially fatal consequences, and a clear failure of the coach to properly deal with it.


Potentially fatal consequences? You are nuts. There is not a single fact that supports that. There’s not a single fact that supports any of the conclusions you reached about the hazing incident. You don’t like that he included the freshman with the community service requirement, but you also have no idea why he did - or even whether he did or the AD.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Go back and read what I said, because you are lying that I didn’t admit that he did something wrong.
> 
> The Alex Morgan tweet and that incident was 12 years ago and has absolutely nothing to do with “abuse”.  The fact that you and others ate bringing that up, as well as what you consider a lack of success that deserves getting fired, shows how you’ve got your tiki torches out for this witch hunt.


so because it was 12 years ago and nothing happened means it has nothing to do with abuse?  GTFOH!  My bad about saying you said he didn't do nothing wrong.  my point is there is a pattern and should be followed up on.  To say it's not, is minimizing everything these kids say. Only time will tell if this is true or not.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> so because it was 12 years ago and nothing happened means it has nothing to do with abuse?  GTFOH!  My bad about saying you said he didn't do nothing wrong.  my point is there is a pattern and should be followed up on.  To say it's not, is minimizing everything these kids say. Only time will tell if this is true or not.


You’re pretty soft if you think quitting out of frustration and then walking it back constitutes player abuse. Actually, that’s about as soft as it gets. 

I did not minimize or dispute the factual statements they made.  I do dispute the article’s hyperbole that their alleged facts constitutes physical and emotional abuse.  Again, this is the problem with hit pieces like this. As you and others are showing, the soft and weak-minded can’t tell the difference between fact and opinion, and the youth soccer community has a high percentage of both.

And for those of you who think McGuire should be fired for failing to go far in the tournament, how do you feel about USD’s coach, for example?  She can’t make the tournament at all or even do well in a conference that isn’t nearly as strong as the Pac-12. What is the standard for firing women’s soccer coaches?


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You’re pretty soft if you think quitting out of frustration and then walking it back constitutes player abuse. Actually, that’s about as soft as it gets.
> 
> I did not minimize or dispute the factual statements they made.  I do dispute the article’s hyperbole that their alleged facts constitutes physical and emotional abuse.  Again, this is the problem with hit pieces like this. As you and others are showing, the soft and weak-minded can’t tell the difference between fact and opinion, and the youth soccer community has a high percentage of both.
> 
> And for those of you who think McGuire should be fired for failing to go far in the tournament, how do you feel about USD’s coach, for example?  She can’t make the tournament at all or even do well in a conference that isn’t nearly as strong as the Pac-12. What is the standard for firing women’s soccer coaches?


You're comparing USD to Cal?  this is her third year at USD and everyone knows that it takes at least 3 years to build a program.  Compared to what she inherited, it's apples to oranges.  To be honest, I'd imagine if she doesn't win in the next 1-2 years then yes, she'll probably not get rehired.  Also, Cal is a Pac-12 school. Best public school in the USA...you're telling me that kids want to got to OSU or any school besides UCLA  and Stanford over Cal?  You're crazy to think that.  Hey I'm not saying he should be fired so quit putting words in my mouth.  I posted this because it's newsworthy subject.  

I never said he should be canned because he can't get out of the first round of the NCAA tourney.  I never said he should be canned period!  All is said was the facts will eventually come to light.  Sorry if all of us don't have the rock solid mental toughness that you and I suppose your offspring have.


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## dad4 (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Potentially fatal consequences? You are nuts. There is not a single fact that supports that. There’s not a single fact that supports any of the conclusions you reached about the hazing incident. You don’t like that he included the freshman with the community service requirement, but you also have no idea why he did - or even whether he did or the AD.


Tied to a chair while someone else sprays alcohol in your mouth? 

Yes, things like that have caused deaths from alcohol poisoning.   Usually at fraternities.

And anyone in a position of authority in a college should be aware of it.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Tied to a chair while someone else sprays alcohol in your mouth?
> 
> Yes, things like that have caused deaths from alcohol poisoning.   Usually at fraternities.
> 
> And anyone in a position of authority in a college should be aware of it.


Neil had nothing to do with it. Nothing. And there is no evidence it was a systemic issue or even foreseeable. Maybe you disagree with the punishment, but you can’t claim that it shows McGuire is “abusive”. Like I said, “hit piece”.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> You're comparing USD to Cal?  this is her third year at USD and everyone knows that it takes at least 3 years to build a program.  Compared to what she inherited, it's apples to oranges.  To be honest, I'd imagine if she doesn't win in the next 1-2 years then yes, she'll probably not get rehired.  Also, Cal is a Pac-12 school. Best public school in the USA...you're telling me that kids want to got to OSU or any school besides UCLA  and Stanford over Cal?  You're crazy to think that.  Hey I'm not saying he should be fired so quit putting words in my mouth.  I posted this because it's newsworthy subject.
> 
> I never said he should be canned because he can't get out of the first round of the NCAA tourney.  I never said he should be canned period!  All is said was the facts will eventually come to light.  Sorry if all of us don't have the rock solid mental toughness that you and I suppose your offspring have.


UCLA is the best public school in the US.  Regardless, Cal is not the ideal destination for many kids. The expectation that the coach should be fired if the program doesn’t do better than its ever done is silly.  It was no good before McGuire got there, and now they make the tournament almost every year. And they graduate, although that doesn’t seem particularly important to you.

The problem with your assertion that it will “eventually come to light” is that it probably won’t, just as it never did with Cromwell.  You will never hear the context of the hazing event. You’ll never know how many players refute the allegations. You will never know whether Sekany’s interpretation of raingate is accurate or if she’s a lazy hypochondriac with a terrible attitude and who was bitter that she would never play again once a better goalie arrived. All you will hear are allegations that, so far, are very thin and by few people and don’t even remotely rise to the level of abuse, coupled with hyperbole. The school isn’t going to discuss individual students, it shouldn’t, and it probably can’t. So what you’ll get is one sided hyperbole, conspiracy theories and rampant speculation, all at the expense of other people’s livelihoods. That’s the petty game you youth soccer whackadoos play.


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## Kicker4Life (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> UCLA is the best public school in the US.  Regardless, Cal is not the ideal destination for many kids. The expectation that the coach should be fired if the program doesn’t do better than its ever done is silly.  It was no good before McGuire got there, and now they make the tournament almost every year. And they graduate, although that doesn’t seem particularly important to you.
> 
> The problem with your assertion that it will “eventually come to light” is that it probably won’t, just as it never did with Cromwell.  You will never hear the context of the hazing event. You’ll never know how many players refute the allegations. You will never know whether Sekany’s interpretation of raingate is accurate or if she’s a lazy hypochondriac with a terrible attitude and who was bitter that she would never play again once a better goalie arrived. All you will hear are allegations that, so far, are very thin and by few people and don’t even remotely rise to the level of abuse, coupled with hyperbole. The school isn’t going to discuss individual students, it shouldn’t, and it probably can’t. So what you’ll get is one sided hyperbole, conspiracy theories and rampant speculation, all at the expense of other people’s livelihoods. That’s the petty game you youth soccer whackadoos play.


Look at you growing up and all....you made it 3 whole posts without calling someone who has an opposing view a degrading name and bringing in conspiracy theories.  You’re really growing, I’m almost prowled of you.


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## dad4 (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Neil had nothing to do with it. Nothing. And there is no evidence it was a systemic issue or even foreseeable. Maybe you disagree with the punishment, but you can’t claim that it shows McGuire is “abusive”. Like I said, “hit piece”.


He had an alcohol based hazing incident on his team, and failed to deal with it even remotely appropriately.

In fact, it looks like he tried to punish the person who blew the whistle.

That puts him in the Houston/Dorrance bucket for me.


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## EOTL (Nov 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Look at you growing up and all....you made it 3 whole posts without calling someone who has an opposing view a degrading name and bringing in conspiracy theories.  You’re really growing, I’m almost prowled of you.


That’s what happens when someone doesn’t try to bring their bigotry into a soccer forum. Sometimes
an idiot needs to be told they’re an idiot, but @HoopsCoach hasn’t reached that level, at least not yet.


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## Kicker4Life (Nov 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> That’s what happens when someone doesn’t try to bring their bigotry into a soccer forum. Sometimes
> an idiot needs to be told they’re an idiot, but @HoopsCoach hasn’t reached that level, at least not yet.


Bigotry at its finest....


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## gottouch (Nov 25, 2020)

I really wanted to view this post to get more information about these accusations regarding Coach Mcguire. I am often frustrated by coming to these boards and viewing shouting matches between overzealous soccer parents (mostly dads that are waaayyy to vested in their DDs soccer life). The biases are obvious and I could probably pinpoint your daughter's college program or verbal committed program. Once again, we go down this unproductive rabbit hole...sigh...


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## kickingandscreaming (Nov 26, 2020)

gottouch said:


> I really wanted to view this post to get more information about these accusations regarding Coach Mcguire. I am often frustrated by coming to these boards and viewing shouting matches between overzealous soccer parents (mostly dads that are waaayyy to vested in their DDs soccer life). The biases are obvious and I could probably pinpoint your daughter's college program or verbal committed program. Once again, we go down this unproductive rabbit hole...sigh...


Having expectations for anonymous posters is a road that invariably leads to disappointment and frustration. I recommend a more pragmatic approach. Respond to those that engage in a way you appreciate and ignore the rest. I use the Ricky Watters mantra, "For who, for what?" It wasn't exactly his mantra, but it was his quote and I find it useful when posting on boards.


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## HoopsCoach (Nov 26, 2020)

gottouch said:


> I really wanted to view this post to get more information about these accusations regarding Coach Mcguire. I am often frustrated by coming to these boards and viewing shouting matches between overzealous soccer parents (mostly dads that are waaayyy to vested in their DDs soccer life). The biases are obvious and I could probably pinpoint your daughter's college program or verbal committed program. Once again, we go down this unproductive rabbit hole...sigh...


Anyone that's been on these boards knows who I am and knows who my daughter is.  I love talking soccer and how much the youth sports model is screwed up in this country (in every sport).  Like I said before, I don't have a dog in this race but do think it's newsworthy.  AGAIN, I'm not saying he's guilty of this but I'm not saying he's not either.  What I am saying is that we will have to wait till all is played out before taking any concrete position-at least I will.  


@EOTL I've reached idiot status many times so calling me an idiot is nothing new..lol. Happy Thanksgiving


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## crush (Nov 26, 2020)

HoopsCoach said:


> Anyone that's been on these boards knows who I am and knows who my daughter is.  I love talking soccer and how much the youth sports model is screwed up in this country (in every sport).  Like I said before, I don't have a dog in this race but do think it's newsworthy.  AGAIN, I'm not saying he's guilty of this but I'm not saying he's not either.  What I am saying is that we will have to wait till all is played out before taking any concrete position-at least I will.
> 
> 
> @EOTL I've reached idiot status many times so calling me an idiot is nothing new..lol. Happy Thanksgiving


I was told my dd and ME are on the Black List from two assholes.  One is out of the game and the other one is still lying to parents ((the customer who pays for the service)). They warned me to STFU and hear I am.  Listen and listen some more to what the females have to say.  Be open minded to their pain. If male coaches want to treat female players like shit, then they will get shit thrown back at them is all I can say.  In fact, all the men in this country need to get their shit together, including me.  I'm trying to be better everyday, I promise.  Look at our leaders........Let's face it, girls have not been treated very well.  I will do my part to help out and be a better man.  I'm not saying girls shouldn;t be challenged at the highest level of soccer, but let's keep out all the BS, control, power trips and manipulation out of their lives.  The girls are truly innocent.  Let's clean up the game and then get back out there. Happy Thanksgiving to one Hoops coach to another.


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## Remi (Dec 25, 2020)

Has anybody seen following up article?









						More athletes describe years of mistreatment by Cal soccer coach
					

Nearly two dozen current and former Cal women's soccer players have contacted KTVU to share disturbing accounts of verbal abuse, bullying, and mistreatment by their long-time coach. Their stories stretch back more than a decade and they all say they were brushed off when they complained.




					www.ktvu.com


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## HoopsCoach (Dec 26, 2020)

Remi said:


> Has anybody seen following up article?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yah I saw it the other day...Again, not sure what to believe but I'm sure we'll see what happens in the coming months, if anything.  What was most interesting was the kid who was a 3 year starter...


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## tjsoccer (Dec 27, 2020)

Remi said:


> Has anybody seen following up article?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read through the testimonials.  Did you see anything in them that stuck out?  I thought they they were pretty thin in terms of proof of any serious issues.


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## Zen (Dec 27, 2020)

tjsoccer said:


> I read through the testimonials.  Did you see anything in them that stuck out?  I thought they they were pretty thin in terms of proof of any serious issues.


Are you serious?  A corroborated theme of nightmares, anxiety, and anguish across 10 yrs and 10 new testimonials from scholarship athletes, some who now play pro and have nothing to gain from this is ‘thin’ proof and ‘not serious’?  Lines were repeatedly crossed beyond coach tough love.  They’re letters were heart breaking.


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## EOTL (Dec 27, 2020)

Zen said:


> Are you serious?  A corroborated theme of nightmares, anxiety, and anguish across 10 yrs and 10 new testimonials from scholarship athletes, some who now play pro and have nothing to gain from this is ‘thin’ proof and ‘not serious’?  Lines were repeatedly crossed beyond coach tough love.  They’re letters were heart breaking.


Someone didn’t actually read the statements. The allegations in the most recent batch are borderline pathetic. Especially the one from the dad of an adult.


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## Yours in futbol (Dec 27, 2020)

tjsoccer said:


> I read through the testimonials.  Did you see anything in them that stuck out?  I thought they they were pretty thin in terms of proof of any serious issues.


Generally speaking, I think it is a serious concern whenever a manager receives this many complaints of emotional and verbal abuse because it exposes the employer to potential liability.  At the very least, I think it would be a good idea for the school to document the reports, the school's actions in response, and provide counseling to the players and the coach.

More specifically as to these complaints, the following stood out to me:

1. 2015 incident during practice where the Coach forced players to head driven balls from 20m away without protection, notwithstanding player concerns, and 4 players suffered concussions during the practice.

2. Pressuring a player with an injury to give up her scholarship or get back on the field.

3. Disparaging remarks about a player’s relationship with her family.

4. Blowing up during individual meetings and telling a player “he’ll sign her transfer papers tomorrow” and “she won’t make it anywhere else”.

5. Pressuring a player to give up a scholarship by saying, “don’t bother training over the summer, you won’t be playing your senior year”, “if you come back, you’ll make things toxic”, and that “you are a financial disappointment”.


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## tjsoccer (Dec 27, 2020)

Yours in futbol said:


> Generally speaking, I think it is a serious concern whenever a manager receives this many complaints of emotional and verbal abuse because it exposes the employer to potential liability.  At the very least, I think it would be a good idea for the school to document the reports, the school's actions in response, and provide counseling to the players and the coach.
> 
> More specifically as to these complaints, the following stood out to me:
> 
> ...



I totally missed your #1....I think I misssed that whole letter.  I wonder if the reporter investigated that one.  

_"Oneevent that sticks out to me as showcasing how fear of Neil influenced the team occurred after apreseasongamein 2015.Neil decided that most ofthe team had been backing out of headers during the game and the following week we had a practice dedicated entirely to heading. It became very clear at the beginning of practice any player that ducked out of a header would be shamed and labeled as cowardly. It is hard to put into words how intimidating and volatile Neil is when he is in these types of moods. As players, we all learned to recognize the signs and knew when to put our heads down and not question or make eye contact with him until practice was over. *In this case, we all got on withpractice, individually attacking and clearing balls that were driven to us from 20m away. These were not lofted crosses, but line drives, driven with power. Four players from this practice suffered concussionsand had to miss a week of class*. Instead of apologizing to us for putting us in harms way, Neil got us all concussion headbands which we were forced to bring to every practice incase we ever were “practicing heading”. If anyone forgot their headband they would be sent out of practice in disgrace. This exemplifies the intimidation Neil employs and how it resulted in putting the players in a position resulting in serious injury.The underlying issue of this situation looking back was the fact that all of us as players knew if we had backed out it would have been used as justification for not being given minutes later in the season. "_


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