# UNION!



## Dominic (Apr 7, 2021)

Are unions still needed?


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 8, 2021)

Unions gave us weekends, 40 hour weeks, 8 hour days, job safety, equal opportunity, breaks, lunch breaks, living wages, the middle class, etc. etc.
America was greatest when unions were strongest. Private industry unions built America and the middle class. The weakening of union influence over the last 60 years has eroded the American dream/middle class and has caused the flatlining of wages (across the board) while production, corporate profits and CEO compensation has continue continued to rise far beyond previous levels.
We need more union influence.


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Unions gave us weekends, 40 hour weeks, 8 hour days, job safety, equal opportunity, breaks, lunch breaks, living wages, the middle class, etc. etc.
> America was greatest when unions were strongest. Private industry unions built America and the middle class. The weakening of union influence over the last 60 years has eroded the American dream/middle class and has caused the flatlining of wages (across the board) while production, corporate profits and CEO compensation has continue continued to rise far beyond previous levels.
> We need more union influence.


In fairness unions also gave us mafia run hotels in Los Vegas, unfunded city/state pension liabilities, and are currently preventing schools across the nation from opening... I could go on, but I imagine you can smell what I'm standing in.

That said, given the democratic parties laser focus on a redistribution of the nations wealth to the poor, coupled with the republican's focus on big business- for middle class American unions often strike me as the only one's looking out for the middle class.


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## Grace T. (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> In fairness unions also gave us mafia run hotels in Los Vegas, unfunded city/state pension liabilities, and are currently preventing schools across the nation from opening... I could go on, but I imagine you can smell what I'm standing in.
> 
> That said, given the democratic parties laser focus on a redistribution of the nations wealth to the poor, coupled with the republican's focus on big business- for middle class American unions often strike me as the only one's looking out for the middle class.


While I think it's fair to say the Republicans were focused on big business through the Bush admin/Romney run, I don't think that's necessarily true today.  Trump really shifted that and you see what's happened over the last 4 months with Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Coca Cola, Delta, United Airlines, MLB, not to mention the media outlets.  

That said, I think unions are great and like any institutions can be corrupted.  Public unions in particular are problematic because they tend to capture narrow electoral interests, so they serve as both advocates and effectively employer, which creates unique opportunities for both conflicts of interest and corruption.  Many European countries, which are held up as an example of progress sometimes for Americans, do not allow public sector unions.


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## espola (Apr 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> While I think it's fair to say the Republicans were focused on big business through the Bush admin/Romney run, I don't think that's necessarily true today.  Trump really shifted that and you see what's happened over the last 4 months with Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Coca Cola, Delta, United Airlines, MLB, not to mention the media outlets.
> 
> That said, I think unions are great and like any institutions can be corrupted.  Public unions in particular are problematic because they tend to capture narrow electoral interests, so they serve as both advocates and effectively employer, which creates unique opportunities for both conflicts of interest and corruption.  Many European countries, which are held up as an example of progress sometimes for Americans, do not allow public sector unions.


Many European countries do not allow public sector unions to strike, but very few European countries include teachers in the forbidden classification. I am not aware of any European countries that do not allow the existence of public sector unions.

Background summary here --









						The right to strike in the public sector in Europe
					

The right to strike is fundamental for trade unions in underpinning their ability to organise, collectively bargain and represent their members. However, this right has often been restricted for public service workers and in recent years has come under attack.




					www.epsu.org


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## Kicker4Life (Apr 8, 2021)

^ California Teachers Unions....case in Point!


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> In fairness unions also gave us mafia run hotels in Los Vegas, unfunded city/state pension liabilities, and are currently preventing schools across the nation from opening... I could go on, but I imagine you can smell what I'm standing in.
> 
> That said, given the democratic parties laser focus on a redistribution of the nations wealth to the poor, coupled with the republican's focus on big business- for middle class American unions often strike me as the only one's looking out for the middle class.


I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


I'm not sure what a PEU is?  But as for the teamsters financing mob run Los Vegas hotels... I thought that was common knowledge?









						The Mafia’s history in Las Vegas: From Bugsy Siegel to Anthony Spilotro
					

Las Vegas was once regarded as an “open city” for more than two dozen Mafia families across the country. Many had representatives in Las Vegas for decades, with Chicago being the most d...




					www.reviewjournal.com


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> While I think it's fair to say the Republicans were focused on big business through the Bush admin/Romney run, I don't think that's necessarily true today.  Trump really shifted that and you see what's happened over the last 4 months with Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Coca Cola, Delta, United Airlines, MLB, not to mention the media outlets.
> 
> That said, I think unions are great and like any institutions can be corrupted.  Public unions in particular are problematic because they tend to capture narrow electoral interests, so they serve as both advocates and effectively employer, which creates unique opportunities for both conflicts of interest and corruption.  Many European countries, which are held up as an example of progress sometimes for Americans, do not allow public sector unions.


I've been thinking about this. Here the thing, if big business truly abandons the republican party where are they going to go?


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

espola said:


> Many European countries do not allow public sector unions to strike, but very few European countries include teachers in the forbidden classification. I am not aware of any European countries that do not allow the existence of public sector unions.
> 
> Background summary here --
> 
> ...


Perhaps the Europeans are content with their teachers unions because they don't keep bad teacher in the classrooms and lock the students out?


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## watfly (Apr 8, 2021)

Not a fan of unions, particularly public sector unions.  With all the employee protections in the law these days these days (particularly in California) unions have outlasted their usefulness.   They are prone to corruption, tend to promote mediocracy and can slow innovation.   The public sector unions have morphed from representing the best interests of their constituents to accumulating power and leverage to advance the personal political, economic and social interests of the union leadership.  A silver lining to Covid is that it has exposed the corruption and bad faith actions of the large California teachers unions.


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

watfly said:


> Not a fan of unions, particularly public sector unions.  With all the employee protections in the law these days these days (particularly in California) unions have outlasted their usefulness.   They are prone to corruption, tend to promote mediocracy and can slow innovation.   The public sector unions have morphed from representing the best interests of their constituents to accumulating power and leverage to advance the personal political, economic and social interests of the union leadership.  A silver lining to Covid is that it has exposed the corruption and bad faith actions of the large California teachers unions.


I'm not opposed to unions. However, I do get the distinct idea that corruption is an issue with unions that can't be ignored.


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## Grace T. (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I've been thinking about this. Here the thing, if big business truly abandons the republican party where are they going to go?


It's not just the corporations, but also the elite and the upper middle class.  Wokeness allows them to feel better about themselves, immigration is good for the bottom line, green is also good for the bottom line (unless you are in fossil fuels) and/or the costs get passed onto consumers, things like the higher minimum wage just provide an excuse for automation.  So long as the D party is focused on wokeness instead of Sanders style socialism, all's good, but that's the trick.


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## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's not just the corporations, but also the elite and the upper middle class.  Wokeness allows them to feel better about themselves, immigration is good for the bottom line, green is also good for the bottom line (unless you are in fossil fuels) and/or the costs get passed onto consumers, things like the higher minimum wage just provide an excuse for automation.  So long as the D party is focused on wokeness instead of Sanders style socialism, all's good, but that's the trick.


I don't know. Most people I know who can afford a house in the hills didn't get up there by being nice. But I will agree they sure talk about what good people they are an awful lot...


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## Grace T. (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I don't know. Most people I know who can afford a house in the hills didn't get up there by being nice. But I will agree they sure talk about what good people they are an awful lot...


Something needs to wash away your sins....no one wants to be that horrible person.


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## Grace T. (Apr 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's not just the corporations, but also the elite and the upper middle class.  Wokeness allows them to feel better about themselves, immigration is good for the bottom line, green is also good for the bottom line (unless you are in fossil fuels) and/or the costs get passed onto consumers, things like the higher minimum wage just provide an excuse for automation.  So long as the D party is focused on wokeness instead of Sanders style socialism, all's good, but that's the trick.


I forgot to mention to the D party has become much more foreign interventionist than the R party.  That also aligns by income.  It's the children of the working poor that goes off to fight in foreign wars.  Unless the rich have an officer in the family (and how often is that now days?), the children of the well off don't go off to fight.


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## Desert Hound (Apr 8, 2021)

watfly said:


> A silver lining to Covid is that it has exposed the corruption and bad faith actions of the large California teachers unions.


Unfortunately people will end up voting the same way, and so the status quo for public unions will continue


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## dad4 (Apr 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


I think the US, Switzerland, and Sweden had economic success after WWII because our industrial base hadn't been bombed into rubble.  

Pretty much every other major manufacturing center had been bombed at least once between 1930 and 1945.

Unions, in that context, were kind of secondary.  The world needed stuff and we had the factories.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 8, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I think the US, Switzerland, and Sweden had economic success after WWII because our industrial base hadn't been bombed into rubble.
> 
> Pretty much every other major manufacturing center had been bombed at least once between 1930 and 1945.
> 
> Unions, in that context, were kind of secondary.  The world needed stuff and we had the factories.


And without unions what would wages have been? Hours worked a week? Healthcare? Child labor? Job site safety? Etc etc


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## dad4 (Apr 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And without unions what would wages have been? Hours worked a week? Healthcare? Child labor? Job site safety? Etc etc


I kind of see unions as a mixed bag.  

Good: Most worker safety laws simply would not exist without unions.

Neutral: The 1950s boom would have happened with or without unions.  

Bad: The 1970-2010 decline in heavy industry was partly due to unionization.  Some of those work rules were awful for the steel and car industries.


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## Kicker4Life (Apr 9, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And without unions what would wages have been? Hours worked a week? Healthcare? Child labor? Job site safety? Etc etc


Also during that era:
- cigarettes where promoted by Dr’s in commercials
- DR Suess was read in schools
- Asbestos was the preferred insulation

Things change, the world evolves.  Unions were vital during that era but today they’ve outlived their relevance in many areas.

You likely know more than I in this area, so change my mind with some of the great things Unions have done for the lower and middle class in the past decade.


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## dad4 (Apr 9, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> Also during that era:
> - cigarettes where promoted by Dr’s in commercials
> - DR Suess was read in schools
> - Asbestos was the preferred insulation
> ...


Most of the current push for minimum wage increases come from unions.  The same is true of efforts to make the tax code more progressive.

The flip side is that most of the rules that protect violent police officers also came from unions.  Chauvin choked at least six other people before he killed Floyd.  He should have been fired, and the union rules helped keep him in uniform.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 9, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I kind of see unions as a mixed bag.
> 
> Good: Most worker safety laws simply would not exist without unions.
> 
> ...


Business has done fabulously well with the production spike organized skilled labor provided. Skilled craftsmen vs transient workers.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 9, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> Also during that era:
> - cigarettes where promoted by Dr’s in commercials
> - DR Suess was read in schools
> - Asbestos was the preferred insulation
> ...


The union influence has been undermined and the federal minimum wage is still at $7.25. That’s what not supporting unions has done. Without unions there would be no industry standards and far more job site fatalities.


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## Kicker4Life (Apr 9, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The union influence has been undermined and the federal minimum wage is still at $7.25. That’s what not supporting unions has done. Without unions there would be no industry standards and far more job site fatalities.


That’s one person’s opinion.


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## whatithink (Apr 9, 2021)

How about the German model, national labor agreements, national and local unions, works councils (which don't have to be unionized), works council reps can be appointed to the BoD etc.

A highly functioning economy with a large manufacturing base. 4th largest GDP in the world. Workers rights US workers couldn't dream of ...
- universal multi-payer healthcare system
- 4 weeks minimum vacation, although 5 or 6 are common
- 6 weeks sick pay (full) before 78 weeks at 70%
- Pregnancy employment protections
- Parental leave entitlements
- and so on


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## whatithink (Apr 17, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> That’s one person’s opinion.


Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.


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## Kicker4Life (Apr 17, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.


No....Unions had their time...that time is not now.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> No....Unions had their time...that time is not now.


That’s one person’s opinion.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.


Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2021)

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2021)

U.S. Child Labor Laws Exist Because Of Haunting Photographs Like These
					

Learn more about the documentary photographer who helped spur child labor reform.




					allthatsinteresting.com


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## crush (Apr 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.


It's all wrong Huskey.  Wrong + Wrong= Wrong.   Many also died before they were even given a chance to be born and that is not fair either, right?  I call balls and strikes and nothing else.


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## crush (Apr 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends.* If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.


Many died so todays selfish______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________!!!!!


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## dad4 (Apr 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need a more recent example.  The triangle fire was 115 years ago.

When I think of unions today, I tend to think of car companies and steel mills driven to bankruptcy.  Industry lost overseas because the domestic mills were completely hog-tied by work rules.  That, or public employee unions that completely own our local city councils and school boards.

This isn’t to say I trust corporations.  I don’t.  But you’ll have a hard time convincing me that unfunded pension debt is way forward.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2021)

dad4 said:


> You need a more recent example.  The triangle fire was 115 years ago.
> 
> When I think of unions today, I tend to think of car companies and steel mills driven to bankruptcy.  Industry lost overseas because the domestic mills were completely hog-tied by work rules.  That, or public employee unions that completely own our local city councils and school boards.
> 
> This isn’t to say I trust corporations.  I don’t.  But you’ll have a hard time convincing me that unfunded pension debt is way forward.


If you ignore the past . . .


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## dad4 (Apr 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> If you ignore the past . . .


Not that simple.

What if I like OSHA but dislike police brutality?

Does that make me pro union, because I want to fully fund OSHA?  

Or does it make me anti-union, because I want to unseal the records on past police misconduct?  

Unions fought hard for OSHA.  But they fought hard to protect bad cops, too.


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## watfly (Apr 17, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> No....Unions had their time...that time is not now.


Kinda like how the ACLU used to fight for civil rights and free speech for everyone.


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## Kicker4Life (Apr 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.


Drama much?


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 18, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Not that simple.
> 
> What if I like OSHA but dislike police brutality?
> 
> ...


In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a slug you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.


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## crush (Apr 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a* slug* you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. *After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority*. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.


40 years?  Are you Messy?  I knew a slug back when Pacific Bell had Yellow Page reps who were all union and he had the easiest job in the world.  These YP Ad Books were cash cow for mama bell   Dude would walk in and tell plumber guy that his ads were going up 25% for next years book.  Plumber told him to F off and then yp dude walked out.  He said AC Tech and Plumber dude would all call at the last minute and say, "find, keep me in the book."  The fact is, no YP ad, no phone calls=Out of business.


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## dad4 (Apr 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a slug you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.


Public employee unions do not appear to work on the trades model.  Seniority is everything.

Why was Derek Chauvin in charge of training other police officers?   Chances are, the collective bargaining agreement requires selecting training officers based on seniority.   It probably comes with better pay and promotion opportunities.

As a result, older police officers with a reputation for citizen complaints are put in charge of teaching the new police officers.   20 years from now, those new officers will generate their own complaints, because that is how they were taught.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 18, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Public employee unions do not appear to work on the trades model.  Seniority is everything.
> 
> Why was Derek Chauvin in charge of training other police officers?   Chances are, the collective bargaining agreement requires selecting training officers based on seniority.   It probably comes with better pay and promotion opportunities.
> 
> As a result, older police officers with a reputation for citizen complaints are put in charge of teaching the new police officers.   20 years from now, those new officers will generate their own complaints, because that is how they were taught.


All I know is I worked and paid for everything I have thanks in part to union organizing. I talk to people all the time that don’t understand how trade unions work. Heard on the golf course more than a few times, “so I’m paying for your retirement?” Then when I explain how it works I’ve had a couple doubt me, lol! Some people think they know everything and won’t sway for reality.


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## Multi Sport (Jun 7, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


The question was , do we still need them. Your answer was past tense and also not gender fluid...

Put down that red cup and keep up with the times...


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## Bruddah IZ (Jun 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


Who wants to be in the middle if we are the wealthiest country in the world?  You're just oooozing with union optimism.


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## Bruddah IZ (Jun 8, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Some people think they know everything and won’t sway for reality.


Some.  Lol!


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## Hüsker Dü (Jun 9, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> The question was , do we still need them. Your answer was past tense and also not gender fluid...
> 
> Put down that red cup and keep up with the times...


Someday you, and many others, may realize the propaganda pushed on you is straight from the think tanks of multi-national corporations designed to make you believe your complete support of them doing what’s best for their bottom line is somehow in your best interests. If the fucking commies prevail it may actually turn out to be idiots like you that thought corporate rule was the way to go. Step away from the meth bullshit.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 9, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Someday you, and many others, may realize the propaganda pushed on you is straight from the think tanks of multi-national corporations designed to make you believe your complete support of them doing what’s best for their bottom line is somehow in your best interests. If the fucking commies prevail it may actually turn out to be idiots like you that thought corporate rule was the way to go. Step away from the meth bullshit.


This sounds a lot more like self reflection.


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## Bruddah IZ (Jun 9, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Someday you, and many others, may realize the propaganda pushed on you is straight from the think tanks of multi-national corporations designed to make you believe your complete support of them doing what’s best for their bottom line is somehow in your best interests. If the fucking commies prevail it may actually turn out to be idiots like you that thought corporate rule was the way to go. Step away from the meth bullshit.


Youʻre babbling.


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## Multi Sport (Jun 9, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Someday you, and many others, may realize the propaganda pushed on you is straight from the think tanks of multi-national corporations designed to make you believe your complete support of them doing what’s best for their bottom line is somehow in your best interests. If the fucking commies prevail it may actually turn out to be idiots like you that thought corporate rule was the way to go. Step away from the meth bullshit.


Didn't take long for you to fall off the wagon eh?

And exactly how many people do you employ again poser?

Weren't you one of those guys posting about how mean President Trump had all those people cleared out for a photo op at the church?  Lol! 

Anytime you want to step back into reality we'll be here waiting...

Cheers!!!


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## Lion Eyes (Jul 26, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I can only speak for private industry unions. You have thrown PEU’s. You blame unions for mob activities and the deals politicians agreed to? Unions created the middle class and made America what he became, the wealthiest country in the world.


I don't know Ratboy...the gentleman author seemingly disagrees...

*Edward Baptist*_ argues in his new book, “The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism,” that the forced migration and subsequent harsh treatment of slaves in the cotton fields was integral to establishing the United States as a world economic power._


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## Hüsker Dü (Jul 26, 2021)

Lion Eyes said:


> I don't know Ratboy...the gentleman author seemingly disagrees...
> 
> *Edward Baptist*_ argues in his new book, “The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism,” that the forced migration and subsequent harsh treatment of slaves in the cotton fields was integral to establishing the United States as a world economic power._


Ah! The real magoo appears. You are still confused I see.


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## Bruddah IZ (Jul 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ah! The real magoo appears. You are still confused I see.


Racist


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 6, 2021)




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## Bruddah IZ (Aug 6, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 11300


You know the Chinese have their own ruling class right?


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## tenacious (Aug 14, 2021)

This is a bit of a slog to read, but it's has an interesting take on union voters I thought. 









						How the Bobos Broke America
					

The creative class was supposed to foster progressive values and economic growth. Instead we got resentment, alienation, and endless political dysfunction.




					www.theatlantic.com


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> This is a bit of a slog to read, but it's has an interesting take on union voters I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A bit of “Oh well that’s me” self loathing with a mix of this is the intellectual slant on why they love trump and live in a fictional world that makes them ‘feel’ better about their perceived victim hood. As far as unions are concerned management has always been against the idea of an organized work force, divide and conquer (basic fundamental of war), no matter what their ideological bent. Bottom line rules. Focus groups and psychological research have informed the powers that be on the worth of swaying public opinion on matters as varied as tobacco consumption to climate change to junk food and yes even getting people to believe that the right to organize should be outlawed. Money rules and buys influence.


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## tenacious (Aug 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> A bit of “Oh well that’s me” self loathing with a mix of this is the intellectual slant on why they love trump and live in a fictional world that makes them ‘feel’ better about their perceived victim hood. As far as unions are concerned management has always been against the idea of an organized work force, divide and conquer (basic fundamental of war), no matter what their ideological bent. Bottom line rules. Focus groups and psychological research have informed the powers that be on the worth of swaying public opinion on matters as varied as tobacco consumption to climate change to junk food and yes even getting people to believe that the right to organize should be outlawed. Money rules and buys influence.


Hmm.... is this response in regard to the article I posted?  At least my read on what he is saying, is that while you Husker have stayed a committed democrat... statistically this isn't the case for most blue colar union households across the country. So why is that? Paraphrasing here, but Brooks seems to think it's because the elites in the democratic party (think Washington Post owning Jeff Bezos here)... tend to be socially liberal, and anti-union.

Thoughts?


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hmm.... is this response in regard to the article I posted?  At least my read on what he is saying, is that while you Husker have stayed a committed democrat... statistically this isn't the case for most blue colar union households across the country. So why is that? Paraphrasing here, but Brooks seems to think it's because the elites in the democratic party (think Washington Post owning Jeff Bezos here)... tend to be socially liberal, and anti-union.
> 
> Thoughts?


“Committed democrat”? Lol! I was going to vote for McCain until Palin opened her mouth. Both sides are owned. I simply abhor blatant and, apparently, deliberate ignorance. Ignorance as a virtue is appalling. Most of my union brothers and sisters have continued to support democrats as the alternative is obviously simply playing to the room and at their heart are deeply anti-union, wolf in sheep’s clothing. The wealthy aren’t concerned with labor issues unless it affects their bottom line. I have had many generous offers to run work for non-union companies and have seen how they operate and I will say America will truly regress if that became the norm. Without labor their is no wealth.


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## tenacious (Aug 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Committed democrat”? Lol! I was going to vote for McCain until Palin opened her mouth. Both sides are owned. I simply abhor blatant and, apparently, deliberate ignorance. Ignorance as a virtue is appalling. Most of my union brothers and sisters have continued to support democrats as the alternative is obviously simply playing to the room and at their heart are deeply anti-union, wolf in sheep’s clothing. The wealthy aren’t concerned with labor issues unless it affects their bottom line. I have had many generous offers to run work for non-union companies and have seen how they operate and I will say America will truly regress if that became the norm. Without labor their is no wealth.


Great comment! "The wealthy aren't concerned with labor issues" is exactly the point.  Here's a quote from the article in the Atlantic I shared:
_"In 2020, Joe Biden won just 500 or so counties—but together they account for 71 percent of American economic activity, according to the Brookings Institution. Donald Trump won more than 2,500 counties that together generate only 29 percent of that activity."_

If you forget about the hand waving and teeth gnashing and look at where the votes are coming from- the democratic party represents the wealthiest parts of the nation. Hence their interest in advancing social issues and not unions- because as you say the wealthy don't care about labor issues.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 15, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Great comment! "The wealthy aren't concerned with labor issues" is exactly the point.  Here's a quote from the article in the Atlantic I shared:
> _"In 2020, Joe Biden won just 500 or so counties—but together they account for 71 percent of American economic activity, according to the Brookings Institution. Donald Trump won more than 2,500 counties that together generate only 29 percent of that activity."_
> 
> If you forget about the hand waving and teeth gnashing and look at where the votes are coming from- the democratic party represents the wealthiest parts of the nation. Hence their interest in advancing social issues and not unions- because as you say the wealthy don't care about labor issues.


Do you feel the hierarchy of the GOP and their donors care about labor concerns? Key part of the article says trump “made them feel like” they were being included. Blowing smoke is blowing smoke, trumpism is not the answer. There is no perfect messenger, but blatant and admitted hypocrisy turns the tuned in off, even while the emotionally aroused chant the name.


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## tenacious (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you feel the hierarchy of the GOP and their donors care about labor concerns? Key part of the article says trump “made them feel like” they were being included. Blowing smoke is blowing smoke, trumpism is not the answer. There is no perfect messenger, but blatant and admitted hypocrisy turns the tuned in off, even while the emotionally aroused chant the name.



I highly doubt the wealthy elites in the Republican party care about labor concerns anymore then the wealthy elite Democrats in Silicon Valley and New York City. Or to put it differently, who employs more union labor Charles Koch, Jeff Bezos, Jamie Dimond or Jack Dorsey? Looking at how blue collar non-college educated voters have been streaming out of the democratic party in recent years (i.e. the demo union laborers are in)... I guess we know who they see as the problem.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 15, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I highly doubt the wealthy elites in the Republican party care about labor concerns anymore then the wealthy elite Democrats in Silicon Valley and New York City. Or to put it differently, who employs more union labor Charles Koch, Jeff Bezos, Jamie Dimond or Jack Dorsey? Looking at how blue collar non-college educated voters have been streaming out of the democratic party in recent years (i.e. the demo union laborers are in)... I guess we know who they see as the problem.


As is often said in here “politicians lie” while ignoring the lies we want to hear. When I hear “we are the best party for the ______” fill in the blank or “what the American people want is _____” again fill in the blank, it makes me cringe, and the group that claims they have their finger on the pulse, and the exclusive on it, of the American people the most is Republicans. Democrats try to tell Americans what they think the American people need, as a whole, while Republicans try to tell Americans what their opinion should to fit in. So it’s we want to try this because we believe it will help vs you should think like us to be a real American.


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## tenacious (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> As is often said in here “politicians lie” while ignoring the lies we want to hear. When I hear “we are the best party for the ______” fill in the blank or “what the American people want is _____” again fill in the blank, it makes me cringe, and the group that claims they have their finger on the pulse, and the exclusive on it, of the American people the most is Republicans. Democrats try to tell Americans what they think the American people need, as a whole, while Republicans try to tell Americans what their opinion should to fit in. So it’s we want to try this because we believe it will help vs you should think like us to be a real American.


Several years back I would have agreed with your assessment and conclusions. However, post-defund the police and now watching how dems manage the boarder, Afghanistan and abandoning unions... and my opinion of their leadership could be summed up as underwhelmed. And now I hear Bernie and Pelosi talking about spending $3.5 trillion on 'human infrastructure' and it makes me uncomfortable that this too is going to end up another big expensive mess. I don't trust the folks running the democratic party anymore and as someone who used to be a reliable vote for them- well l would sum up my current sentiment as more along the lines of I want off the crazy train.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 15, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Several years back I would have agreed with your assessment and conclusions. However, post-defund the police and now watching how dems manage the boarder, Afghanistan and abandoning unions... and my opinion of their leadership could be summed up as underwhelmed. And now I hear Bernie and Pelosi talking about spending $3.5 trillion on 'human infrastructure' and it makes me uncomfortable that this too is going to end up another big expensive mess. I don't trust the folks running the democratic party anymore and as someone who used to be a reliable vote for them- well l would sum up my current sentiment as more along the lines of I want off the crazy train.


Seems you are being influenced by some t-party source. Running with the “defund the police” narrative that was a silly idea that the only place it ever had any traction was in rightwing talking points . . . and then of course your misspelling border . . . which is a legacy project as is Afghanistan. No one has ever left Afghanistan victorious.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems you are being influenced by some t-party source. Running with the “defund the police” narrative that was a silly idea that the only place it ever had any traction was in rightwing talking points . . . and then of course your misspelling border . . . which is a legacy project as is Afghanistan. No one has ever left Afghanistan victorious.


I'm not sure if I understand the news correctly, but it looks like China might be the next to try its hand there.  That could be interesting (if any news is allowed out of there).


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## tenacious (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems you are being influenced by some t-party source. Running with the “defund the police” narrative that was a silly idea that the only place it ever had any traction was in rightwing talking points . . . and then of course your misspelling border . . . which is a legacy project as is Afghanistan. No one has ever left Afghanistan victorious.


For me, I don't think this is about Trump. It's about how I live here in Manhattan (ground zero for progressivism in America) and I have watched how 'defund the police' made the city less safe with my own eyes. It's about declining union membership numbers, or any sort of plan to ensure we have a strong middle class (other than handouts). It's about watching what's happening in Afghanistan and bracing myself for the beheadings that are soon to follow. 

It's all just gotten to be too much for me.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 16, 2021)

tenacious said:


> For me, I don't think this is about Trump. It's about how I live here in Manhattan (ground zero for progressivism in America) and I have watched how 'defund the police' made the city less safe with my own eyes. It's about declining union membership numbers, or any sort of plan to ensure we have a strong middle class (other than handouts). It's about watching what's happening in Afghanistan and bracing myself for the beheadings that are soon to follow.
> 
> It's all just gotten to be too much for me.


Both trump and Biden have blood on their hands. Our military looks weak and disorganized, our intelligence has failed us. Dark times for sure. Not a failure of party, a failure of our entire military and diplomatic systems. We suck!


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## tenacious (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Both trump and Biden have blood on their hands. Our military looks weak and disorganized, our intelligence has failed us. Dark times for sure. Not a failure of party, a failure of our entire military and diplomatic systems. We suck!


I agree. Things are a mess, and they've been a mess for a while now.


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## Bruddah IZ (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Committed democrat”? Lol! I was going to vote for McCain until Palin opened her mouth. Both sides are owned. I simply abhor blatant and, apparently, deliberate ignorance. Ignorance as a virtue is appalling. Most of my union brothers and sisters have continued to support democrats as the alternative is obviously simply playing to the room and at their heart are deeply anti-union, wolf in sheep’s clothing. The wealthy aren’t concerned with labor issues unless it affects their bottom line. I have had many generous offers to run work for non-union companies and have seen how they operate and I will say America will truly regress if that became the norm. *Without labor their is no wealth.*


*Mama Du ask a good question*


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## Bruddah IZ (Aug 16, 2021)

Don’t Envy Rihanna’s Billion Dollar Empire. Celebrate It Rihanna’s rise from a poor immigrant from Barbados to global star to billionaire entrepreneur reveals the enduring power and reality of the American Dream.


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## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

@ Bruddah IZ and those looking to cut out meat or at least try and cut back a little.  Check out Crush's latest tasty treat brother & sisters.  This right here is a stuffed extra big red bell pepper.  Topped with avocado, cilantro & my special sauce mixed all togethers.  Guess what I stuffed it with Bruddah?


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## Bruddah IZ (Aug 18, 2021)

crush said:


> @ Bruddah IZ and those looking to cut out meat or at least try and cut back a little.  Check out Crush's latest tasty treat brother & sisters.  This right here is a stuffed extra big red bell pepper.  Topped with avocado, cilantro & my special sauce mixed all togethers.  Guess what I stuffed it with Bruddah?
> 
> View attachment 11441


Eggs?


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## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

Bruddah IZ said:


> Eggs?


Hell no bro.  We dont eat any animals we haven't seen with our own eyes and how they were treated.  No bueno bro.  Guess again.  Look at the crunchy kind of burned ((really my wife's fav part)) part at the top?


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## Bruddah IZ (Aug 18, 2021)

crush said:


> Hell no bro.  We dont eat any animals we haven't seen with our own eyes and how they were treated.  No bueno bro.  Guess again.  Look at the crunchy kind of burned ((really my wife's fav part)) part at the top?


Potatoes?


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## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

Bruddah IZ said:


> Potatoes?


Yes sir.  Garlic mashed with onions.


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 6, 2021)

*Labor unions didn't bring you this or any other weekend*

My father was a Teamster for 15 years. I grew up in a working-class household.

And I don't believe the propaganda for a second.

"The Weekend: Brought to You by Labor Unions," reads the bumper sticker.

I see. So those Third World countries looking to escape poverty and enjoy additional leisure just need...some labor unions?

(What's the point of foreign aid, then? Why don't we just save ourselves the money and just tell these countries to unionize instead?)

Until society grows wealthy enough, all the labor unions in the world can't make it possible to take two days a week off from work.

Can you imagine, in the primitive economies of 300 years ago, agitating for a shorter work week? People would have thought you insane.

With little capital, and with most goods produced by hand, it takes all the labor power all the hours it can spare just to make life barely livable.

That's why people worked long hours in terrible conditions in the past (and why they do in the Third World today). Not because short men with white mustaches and a monocle took delight in oppressing them.

What emancipated people from these dehumanizing conditions were capital goods and the market economy. With workers vastly more productive than before, thanks to the assistance of machines, physical output was multiplied in quantity and quality many, many times over. This greater abundance put downward pressure on prices relative to wage rates, and people's standard of living rose. Their paychecks could buy more stuff now, because there was vastly more stuff in existence.

And at that time they began to opt for more leisure and more pleasant working conditions rather than more cash.

If you ask people who work in sweatshops today if they'd prefer to have (1) more pleasant conditions (or fewer working hours) but (2) less take-home pay, they overwhelmingly say no.

Professor Ben Powell of Texas Tech University actually bothered to ask them. (Imagine that: he bothered to ask, rather than assuming he knew what was best for them!) And 90+% of them said that regardless of what Western do-gooders thought they should want, they preferred the money.

Meanwhile, American workers had the eight-hour-day well before their much more heavily unionized counterparts in Europe did, and they earned higher wages. Unionism never accounted for more than a third of the American labor force, and that was at its height.

So whatever your kids' teachers are crediting unions for, just roll your eyes.


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## crush (Sep 6, 2021)

Bruddah IZ said:


> *Labor unions didn't bring you this or any other weekend*
> 
> My father was a Teamster for 15 years. I grew up in a working-class household.
> 
> ...


*The Union Wheel my pal is on.  Great guy but he is not free at all.  He must fall in line with da boss or else.*


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## crush (Sep 6, 2021)




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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 6, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I agree. Things are a mess, and they've been a mess for a while now.


Decimating the State Department (and freeing 5,000 Taliban) didn’t help and actually looks quite suspect in light of current events (and the rhetoric that ignores those actions).


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## crush (Sep 6, 2021)




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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 19, 2021)

*"The Weekend: Brought to You by Labor Unions," reads the bumper sticker.*

*I see. So those Third World countries looking to escape poverty and enjoy additional leisure just need...some labor unions?

(What's the point of foreign aid, then? Why don't we just save ourselves the money and just tell these countries to unionize instead?)

Until society grows wealthy enough, all the labor unions in the world can't make it possible to take two days a week off from work.*

*Can you imagine, in the primitive economies of 300 years ago, agitating for a shorter work week? People would have thought you insane.*

With little capital, and with most goods produced by hand, it takes all the labor power all the hours it can spare just to make life barely livable.

That's why people worked long hours in terrible conditions in the past (and why they do in the Third World today). Not because short men with white mustaches and a monocle took delight in oppressing them.

*What emancipated people from these dehumanizing conditions were capital goods and the market economy. With workers vastly more productive than before, thanks to the assistance of machines, physical output was multiplied in quantity and quality many, many times over. This greater abundance put downward pressure on prices relative to wage rates, and people's standard of living rose. Their paychecks could buy more stuff now, because there was vastly more stuff in existence.

And at that time they began to opt for more leisure and more pleasant working conditions rather than more cash.*

If you ask people who work in sweatshops today if they'd prefer to have (1) more pleasant conditions (or fewer working hours) but (2) less take-home pay, they overwhelmingly say no.

Professor Ben Powell of Texas Tech University actually bothered to ask them. (Imagine that: he bothered to ask, rather than assuming he knew what was best for them!) And 90+% of them said that regardless of what Western do-gooders thought they should want, they preferred the money.

Meanwhile, American workers had the eight-hour-day well before their much more heavily unionized counterparts in Europe did, and they earned higher wages. *Unionism never accounted for more than a third of the American labor force, and that was at its height.*

So whatever your kids' teachers are crediting unions for, just roll your eyes.


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## crush (Sep 20, 2021)

My wife and I had some old pals that are both Union Teachers and we dont talk anymore because they think were crazy and rebellious..  My wife still has them as FB pals and we see posts from time to time.  The last three weeks they went to Hawaii, out to dinner almost every night and yesterday they got to go to NFL game.  Their big cowboys fans.  They are living life to the full.  Jobs for life, jabs for life and all is good.  They do as they are told and do not undermine or question those over them.  No open door for them and they are 100% ok with it.  They have a combine salary package of $240,000+ a year.  Tenure and killer retirement plan.  Nice gig for those WHO follow the easy path.


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## tenacious (Sep 26, 2021)

Hmm... thought provoking take on why union membership is shrinking. I don't want to ruin the surprise, but basically it comes down to Union's leaders decision to use union dues to promote progressives 'war' on inequality as opposed to less sexy nuts and bolts labor issues has brought us to a place where less then 40% of American workers say they would vote for a union at their workplace.  









						The labor movement is 'woking' itself to death | Opinion
					

Workers say they want unions out of politics and in the business of supporting them directly. So why not cut them a deal?




					www.newsweek.com


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 26, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hmm... thought provoking take on why union membership is shrinking. I don't want to ruin the surprise, but basically it comes down to Union's leaders decision to use union dues to promote progressives 'war' on inequality as opposed to less sexy nuts and bolts labor issues has brought us to a place where less then 40% of American workers say they would vote for a union at their workplace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The war against organized labor started the first time two workers got together and asked for better conditions. Many workers looking for a better life have died at the hands of managements hired thugs. Controlling the narrative is the advantage wealth affords. Divide and conquer. They want profits not mutual well being, period.


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## tenacious (Sep 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The war against organized labor started the first time two workers got together and asked for better conditions. Many workers looking for a better life have died at the hands of managements hired thugs. Controlling the narrative is the advantage wealth affords. Divide and conquer. They want profits not mutual well being, period.


First let me point out that (outside of governmental 'union' jobs) American unions are a sinking ship. Memberships are numbers are shrinking, and 60% of Americans say they would vote against their job unionizing.

My read on that? Beat that 40 hour work week drum all you want, but paying union dues to help elect people who want to raise your taxes and believe in handouts not work... doesn't seem like a winning strategy to stop the slow creeping death of unions in America.


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 27, 2021)

crush said:


> My wife and I had some old pals that are both Union Teachers and we dont talk anymore because they think were crazy and rebellious..  My wife still has them as FB pals and we see posts from time to time.  The last three weeks they went to Hawaii, out to dinner almost every night and yesterday they got to go to NFL game.  Their big cowboys fans.  They are living life to the full.  Jobs for life, jabs for life and all is good.  They do as they are told and do not undermine or question those over them.  No open door for them and they are 100% ok with it.  They have a combine salary package of $240,000+ a year.  Tenure and killer retirement plan.  Nice gig for those WHO follow the easy path.


Espola said it best, FREEDUMB.


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The war against organized labor started the first time two workers got together and asked for better conditions. Many workers looking for a better life have died at the hands of managements hired thugs. Controlling the narrative is the advantage wealth affords. Divide and conquer. They want profits not mutual well being, period.


Nonsense


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The war against organized labor started the first time two workers got together and asked for better conditions. Many workers looking for a better life have died at the hands of managements hired thugs. Controlling the narrative is the advantage wealth affords. Divide and conquer. They want profits not mutual well being, period.


“Tradenschmertz”


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The war against organized labor started the first time two workers got together and asked for better conditions. Many workers looking for a better life have died at the hands of managements hired thugs. Controlling the narrative is the advantage wealth affords. Divide and conquer. They want profits not mutual well being, period.


 I propose to dub this impulse “Nutzenschmerz,” or the indignant outrage over someone getting to use something I don’t have.--Mike Munger


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 27, 2021)

tenacious said:


> First let me point out that (outside of governmental 'union' jobs) American unions are a sinking ship. Memberships are numbers are shrinking, and 60% of Americans say they would vote against their job unionizing.
> 
> My read on that? Beat that 40 hour work week drum all you want, but paying union dues to help elect people who want to raise your taxes and believe in handouts not work... doesn't seem like a winning strategy to stop the slow creeping death of unions in America.


Then we give away all that people suffered and died for. Self-fulfilling propaganda has brought us here. You seem very susceptible. Divide and conquer. If more people fall for it like you we are doomed to virtual slavery. I would say anarchy and a booming black market but most people want to do what’s right and will comply with the robber barons wishes, they need to eat.


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## tenacious (Sep 28, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Then we give away all that people suffered and died for. Self-fulfilling propaganda has brought us here. You seem very susceptible. Divide and conquer. If more people fall for it like you we are doomed to virtual slavery. I would say anarchy and a booming black market but most people want to do what’s right and will comply with the robber barons wishes, they need to eat.


I agree the robber barons are an issue. I just don't think the progressives are going to save you from them.

As to the rest, I see it more as trying to save someone stuck in an abusive relationship then being about propaganda. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this Husker... but those progressives aren't into the working man.


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 28, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I agree the robber barons are an issue. I just don't think the progressives are going to save you from them.
> 
> As to the rest, I see it more as trying to save someone stuck in an abusive relationship then being about propaganda. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this Husker... but those progressives aren't into the working man.


That’s why we need term limits, abolish citizens United and outlaw lobbyist. Politicians should not be able to accept emoluments in any way. Professional politicians should be a thing of the past, make’em get a real job.


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 28, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I agree the robber barons are an issue. I just don't think the progressives are going to save you from them.
> 
> As to the rest, I see it more as trying to save someone stuck in an abusive relationship then being about propaganda. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this Husker... but those progressives aren't into the working man.


As far as the propaganda goes. Unions helped build the middle class and now that management has convinced working people to distrust unions, thus weakening all organized labor efforts, the middle class is dividing. The convincing part is where I see the propaganda, am I wrong? Are large business owners not fighting against unions like they always have? People like trump (just using him as the stereotypical stuffed suit big business figurehead he wishes he was) despise unions. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur or business owner. The majority will always either organize for fair treatment or be at the mercy of the powers that be. We are all “Newsies” now.


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## crush (Sep 28, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why we need term limits, abolish citizens United and outlaw lobbyist. Politicians should not be able to accept emoluments in any way. Professional politicians should be a thing of the past, make’em get a real job.


We agree on something!  I got run off by the Evangelicals because I dont think ministers should make money.  My biological last name is Kirk.  Church is not a building to make money.  The church is within you, not a cash cow.  If we all come together Husker and compromise ((the art of the deal)) we can ALL have a wonderful life on the earth.  Share ideas with each other and also share our food and happiness.  Love always wins!!


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## espola (Sep 28, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s why we need term limits, abolish citizens United and outlaw lobbyist. Politicians should not be able to accept emoluments in any way. Professional politicians should be a thing of the past, make’em get a real job.


Term limits, unfortunately, throw out the good with the bad.


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## thirteenknots (Sep 28, 2021)

espola said:


> Term limits, unfortunately, throw out the good with the bad.



  1%  Good
99%  Bad


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 28, 2021)

espola said:


> Term limits, unfortunately, throw out the good with the bad.


Yep


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## Bruddah IZ (Sep 30, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> As far as the propaganda goes. Unions helped build the middle class and now that management has convinced working people to distrust unions, thus weakening all organized labor efforts, the middle class is dividing. The convincing part is where I see the propaganda, am I wrong? Are large business owners not fighting against unions like they always have? People like trump (just using him as the stereotypical stuffed suit big business figurehead he wishes he was) despise unions. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur or business owner. The majority will always either organize for fair treatment or be at the mercy of the powers that be. We are all “Newsies” now.


This is a lot to put on a bumper sticker.


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## Hüsker Dü (Dec 30, 2021)




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