# ref accountablity .



## charlie murphy (Sep 10, 2017)

Is there a method to make a ref accountable for HIS or HER actions on the field. Can one post video / highlight reel? Can one post names , faces , complements and offenses? Players are accountable for their actions during a game. Names and offences are posted in the league standings web site. One can go onto those pages and see who did what and when. However , with regard to the officiating of a game there is no such record of the refs officiating. We get on this forum and bitch about the refs from time to time. Maybe we are all just bitching about the same guy and giving all refs a bad name. I believe a good ref would not have issue with calling out sub par refs . Just as anyone in their job would not want to work with an under performing co worker. Why would a good official what to be paired with a sub standard partner? You know if your CR is lacking it is very likely you as the AR will get and earful. I have never seen an AR question a CR. You can go on YELP and get reviews of restaurants and local businesses.  You may even chose to go to a restaurant, regardless. But at least you know what to expect. Maybe if you knew what to expect ref wise, Sh**Y or excellent, life on the field for the ref would be easier. you could take the info or leave it but at least you and an expectation.  'Don't expect much, I read the review, poorly reviewed ref or this should be a well officiated game I read the reviews on this guy/girl. I am writing  after a win  in a very poorly refed game. The ref should not be a center piece of any game discussion, a good ref is seldom seen yet in total control of play and keeping pace with the game. This is not what I saw today.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 10, 2017)

It just gets worse, No this is what I should have expected from this guy. My expectation is just too high for this guy. I go to the bracket to check standings then check card standings / game report and this CR has the wrong player AND the wrong number listed as being carded . This ref IS not  competent!


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## coachrefparent (Sep 10, 2017)

What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule.  As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines.  Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they  do.

Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.


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## Jsmb (Sep 10, 2017)

I have seen referee during a summer tournament  just before my kid  played,  call a game over  after calling a foul inside the penalty box and awarding PK.
Watched refs call offside while player on his defense side of field.
Getting worse and seeing too many refs unable or unwilling to actual hustle and not stay around the center pitch.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> Is there a method to make a ref accountable for HIS or HER actions on the field. Can one post video / highlight reel? Can one post names , faces , complements and offenses? Players are accountable for their actions during a game. Names and offences are posted in the league standings web site. One can go onto those pages and see who did what and when. However , with regard to the officiating of a game there is no such record of the refs officiating. We get on this forum and bitch about the refs from time to time. Maybe we are all just bitching about the same guy and giving all refs a bad name. I believe a good ref would not have issue with calling out sub par refs . Just as anyone in their job would not want to work with an under performing co worker. Why would a good official what to be paired with a sub standard partner? You know if your CR is lacking it is very likely you as the AR will get and earful. I have never seen an AR question a CR. You can go on YELP and get reviews of restaurants and local businesses.  You may even chose to go to a restaurant, regardless. But at least you know what to expect. Maybe if you knew what to expect ref wise, Sh**Y or excellent, life on the field for the ref would be easier. you could take the info or leave it but at least you and an expectation.  'Don't expect much, I read the review, poorly reviewed ref or this should be a well officiated game I read the reviews on this guy/girl. I am writing  after a win  in a very poorly refed game. The ref should not be a center piece of any game discussion, a good ref is seldom seen yet in total control of play and keeping pace with the game. This is not what I saw today.


Do you have a video? Is your team lost a game?


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## timbuck (Sep 11, 2017)

There is a referee problem in So Cal.  But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume.  There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now.  But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally. 
Why would someone want to become a referee?   Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?

We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem?  Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 11, 2017)

timbuck said:


> There is a referee problem in So Cal.  But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume.  There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now.  But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally.
> Why would someone want to become a referee?   Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?
> 
> We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem?  Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
> Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.


Years back I think CSL was doing it - requiring teams to have referees and do certain amount of games. I'm not sure if they ever followed up with that or continue to do so.


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## Striker17 (Sep 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule.  As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines.  Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they  do.
> 
> Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.


Great post. I missed a game last week where there  as apparently "bad Reffing". I was emotionally removed so when I reviewed the tape where a parent had listed each "offense"  I had to keep rewinding because I did not see what the parent was concerned about. 
Great post!


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule.  As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines.  Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they  do.
> 
> Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.


You have some good points here :
1) full game video  do exist. There are more and more "companies " each weekend setting up the overhead / boom video systems. Perhaps part of the cost of "doing business "  at these fields is for the company to make one "gratis" copy of the video and submit it to league officials. The videos could be chosen at random and ref evaluation could be performed. As the season progresses the best refs could be asked to officiate games in playoffs , while under performers could be encouraged to refine their trade under the supervision of more seasoned officials or directed the age groups that are more appropriate to their level.
2) we all realize that a ref will not see everything on the field but we expect basic calls to be made and keeping up with the pace of the game. We expect control of the game without being controlling. We expect win or lose that the discussion after the game is not about the officiating .
3) I am not sure that posting video and identify players is in the benefit of anyone. Why would one "let us all know who their son or daughter is so we all can point out their mistakes in gory detail". The point is to evaluate the Job for which one is being paid to do.  A public forum is not the place to "evaluate" a person's competencies. I am sure that ref associations have the personal to evaluate their members. Your point is spot on the full game video. It does exist, the tool just has to be used . If the ref association truly wanted to make their members and the sport in southern California the best It can be then use the full game video as you suggest.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> Do you have a video? Is your team lost a game?


Video does exist and no we did not "lost" the game . we won. I was always taught that is you win you want to beat someone at their best .
With the officiating I saw no team could be at their best. A wins are not the same.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 11, 2017)

timbuck said:


> There is a referee problem in So Cal.  But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume.  There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now.  But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally.
> Why would someone want to become a referee?   Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?
> 
> We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem?  Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
> Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.


Good idea.  There is definitely a small pool of people willing to put themselves out there.  One sure fire way to cut down on parents complaining about refs is to have them take a ref course and try to AR a few U10-U12 games.  Most people have no idea how hard it is.  Not to take away from the OP's point here, because there are bad refs out there who make the game about themselves.  I do believe there is a system of accountability within the referee associations.


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## watfly (Sep 11, 2017)

I don't think publicly shaming a ref with a video is appropriate.  Let the gaming league and the ref association handle the matter although they don't have a great track record for doing so.  I think that if both coaches or DOC's file a complaint that hopefully that will carry more weight than just the losing coach filing a complaint.

We had a ref yesterday (no AR's) that had no business being on the field.  For a couple of reasons he did not have the physical ability to even come close to keeping up with the 9v9 play.  He had to guess at offsides and out of bounds.  Our goalie was cleated in the head drawing blood (and ending his day) with no call, among other high cleat and dangerous play no calls.  He allowed the opposing coach to scream, chastise and demean his players the entire game. It appeared that he "allowed" both coaches to call fouls. His lack of ability created a serious safety issue. In the first half he allowed heading and the 2nd half he didn't because he said the rule was new to him.  After the game he said that his eyes couldn't keep up with the speed of play.  The whole situation was just an ugly example of youth soccer.  Shame on the ref association for even allowing this ref to be assigned to a game.

BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?


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## Eagle33 (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?


I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 11, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.


I don't  think this is accurate at all. I know the league in which I coach and referee requires the club to procure and pay for a minimum number of referees  per game, which is 3 at 9v9.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> I don't think publicly shaming a ref with a video is appropriate.  Let the gaming league and the ref association handle the matter although they don't have a great track record for doing so.  I think that if both coaches or DOC's file a complaint that hopefully that will carry more weight than just the losing coach filing a complaint.
> 
> We had a ref yesterday (no AR's) that had no business being on the field.  For a couple of reasons he did not have the physical ability to even come close to keeping up with the 9v9 play.  He had to guess at offsides and out of bounds.  Our goalie was cleated in the head drawing blood (and ending his day) with no call, among other high cleat and dangerous play no calls.  He allowed the opposing coach to scream, chastise and demean his players the entire game. It appeared that he "allowed" both coaches to call fouls. His lack of ability created a serious safety issue. In the first half he allowed heading and the 2nd half he didn't because he said the rule was new to him.  After the game he said that his eyes couldn't keep up with the speed of play.  The whole situation was just an ugly example of youth soccer.  Shame on the ref association for even allowing this ref to be assigned to a game.
> 
> BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?


My point is that in a majority of instances, the posting of a game video with  the claim that the refereeing was "horrible" or "poor", etc., will actually shame the person who made the claim,


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

@charlie murphy,

To answer your basic question, as a parent there is no recourse.  Your coach is empowered to report the referee to the Assigning Association and League, who will want the entire game video and a full description of the misconduct.

That said, the referee associations truly want to put the appropriate referees on the field.  Every month, my association holds a monthly meeting and we go over the Cal South's Referee Program's video/lesson plan.  Cal South put's out these lessons and focuses on a different topic or area of emphasis each month. Referees are asked to attend 3-6 meetings a year and also attend additional more advanced training depending on grade level of referee.

The local associations have two problems: (1) not enough qualified and experienced referees; and (2) certain politically connected associations/assignors that take the local associations "better" referees for certain leagues, these assignors also assign HS and college games so referees that do this as a major source of income feel compelled to stay in the good graces of these associations/assignors.

As a result, some weekends the already stretched thin referee associations are putting referees that are not as experienced or qualified on games that maybe those referees shouldn't be on AND referees are getting 4 games per day.  I can tell you as an older guy, 3 U15+ games is my limit and I should probably only do 2 games, by the 3rd game I have been on my feet, standing, jogging, sprinting (if you can call it that), jogging, walking, some more sprinting, walking, etc. for nearly 5 hours in the heat.  My feet are killing me, I'm sweaty, haven't peed all day, my water is gone, my Powerades are gone, I haven't really eaten because the league scheduled these game 10 minutes apart, I'm sore and ready for a beer or two or seven.

When we get to the higher level olders (U15 - CSL Premiere/Gold, SCDSL Flight 1 (and even flight 2)), these crews are pushed hard.  The center referee will typically run about 3-4 miles per game (FIFA referees run 12 miles per game /5x more than the players).  A youth competitive crew will work 3-4 games per day, with each referee switching off as Center.

What I witnessed this weekend was my referee Association didn't have enough referees to cover all the games.  It begged, pleaded and borrowed what it could get.  I was assigned 1 game (center) and asked to find my own ARs (make some calls to the Recreational ranks).  The kids I got were green and new, didn't know the rules like they should (called offside on a throw-in, which I waved off) ... but heck, at least I had some AR's.  My next game 15 minutes later, I joined a crew that already had 2 games under the belt and was dragging.

The reason our Association don't have enough referees is simple, we lose 1/2 our youth referees after their 1st year because of ASSHOLE (I'm not filtering this word) PARENTS and COACHES.  These piece of crap parents and coaches think they have the right to challenge and chastise and otherwise be assholes to our young referees.  So, rather than putting up with the abuse they quit or simply refuse to referee certain games and go back to the Rec ranks.

What is also pathetic is the complete and total lack of effort these parents and coaches put into learning the freaking rules.  I had one parent smuggly shout out to me after his team's player was fouled "You can use your whistle Ref."  I didn't blow my whistle ... why?  Let's see ... I called advantage ... play on, his team still had the ball at the top of the 18 and actually took a shot on goal 4-5 passes later.  Dumbass.  This parent's daughter was on a CSL Gold U17 team and this guy has watched how many freaking games and still doesn't know the rules?  Amazing, but this is what we have to deal with.

Can I do better as a Referee, absolutely.  Will I miss certain calls because my view was blocked by a Player or the action was away from the foul and I didn't see the foul from my position ... every game.  Will I be out of position because I can't run as fast as I used to and I anticipated the direction of play incorrectly?  Yes, frequently.  

So for those of you that believe you can do better, click here:
http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/how-to-be/


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## Mystery Train (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> @charlie murphy,
> 
> To answer your basic question, as a parent there is no recourse.  Your coach is empowered to report the referee to the Assigning Association and League, who will want the entire game video and a full description of the misconduct.
> 
> ...


Great post.  I never thought about the fatigue factor of reffing 3 games with no breaks.  12 miles a game for FIFA refs?  Impressive.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I don't  think this is accurate at all. I know the league in which I coach and referee requires the club to procure and pay for a minimum number of referees  per game, which is 3 at 9v9.


You don't think or you know this for a fact? If you do know, please attach a document that proves your knowledge.


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## mirage (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> It just gets worse, No this is what I should have expected from this guy. My expectation is just too high for this guy. I go to the bracket to check standings then check card standings / game report and this CR has the wrong player AND the wrong number listed as being carded . This ref IS not  competent!


So you had a bad ref at the game.... I know its frustrating and can ruin the game but it happens.

Just take a step back and look at the whole big picture though.
1) its just one of the league games - kids game, remind you.

2) sounds like your kid's team won inspire of bad ref'ing - silver lining is that its a learning moment of the players to deal with human errors in the game - bad officiating happens in EVEY sports.

3) "the system" will essentially do nothing - this is not the World Cup and refs don't get banned as a result of bad calls.

4) If we got all worked up about every incompetent acts by workers we encounter in everyday life, (yes refs are workers on the field), then our blood pressure would stay over 160/120 constantly.

Hope you feel bit better for venting but lets not lose perspective on the whole thing.

I'm sure your next game will be better.....

Happy Monday,
Cheers!


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## timbuck (Sep 11, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.


I saw something regarding number of refs per game from the league, but I can't find it in my emails.  If I recall, it said something to the effect of "Some games in further away locations may only have 1 referee.  Sorry.  It is what it is."


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> @charlie murphy,
> 
> To answer your basic question, as a parent there is no recourse.  Your coach is empowered to report the referee to the Assigning Association and League, who will want the entire game video and a full description of the misconduct.
> 
> ...


thank you . that is a great post . If I thought I could do better I would put myself out there. I know that I can not.  For the most part I feel the refs do a good job. It seems unfortunate that the pool seems to be judged/ assessed / labeled by the lowest common denominator. If you have been around a while , are there more games now than say 5 years ago? thus , stretching the resources of the ref pool.
I also appreciate the mention of Fatigue someone has posted after multiple games physical and mental fatigue have to set in especially in SB / Norco.


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## watfly (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> What is also pathetic is the complete and total lack of effort these parents and coaches put into learning the freaking rules.
> 
> So for those of you that believe you can do better, click here:
> [URL]http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/how-to-be/[/URL]




Refs should know the rules because that is what they are paid to do, I can't tell you how many times refs didn't know the rules of a particular tournament this summer.  Nor how many times I've seen Ref's misqoute rules on this forum. My beef is not with Refs that miss calls (because all do, at all levels of the game) but with Refs that come ill prepared to do their job either mentally or physically.

Parents aren't required to know the rules.  They shouldn't abuse the refs whether they know the rules or not.  I like to know the rules because it makes the game more relevant and I can help my kid understand the rules and how they apply to him.

I always love the comment about if you don't like it than you become a Ref.  OK then don't ever complain about a meal if you don't become a chef, don't complain about your politician until you run for office, don't complain about a coach until you become licensed and start coaching etc...  Refs aren't volunteers, they are paid to perform a job competently.   Unfortunately, it's a volume and accountability issue and its too easy to blame it on parents and coaches.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

mirage said:


> So you had a bad ref at the game.... I know its frustrating and can ruin the game but it happens.
> 
> Just take a step back and look at the whole big picture though.
> 1) its just one of the league games - kids game, remind you.
> ...


sounds like you been there! you hit it about right on the mark. Let's hope , you are probably right on that point too.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

@Eagle33,

The way this typically works during league play is as follows:

Clubs are assigned home games by League.  The League typically contracts with the Referee Associations covering the geographic areas to assign games.  I'm sure exceptions exist, but Presidio/SDDA, CSL, SCDSL, DA, ECNL, and even Rec all work this way.  Clubs are usually taken out of the mix, because it would be a nightmare dealing with 29 clubs versus 1 league schedule.  The 7v7's are generally 1 man, but could be 3 man.  The 9v9's should be 3 man crews, but if there are not enough referees then they are the 1st to get a 1 man crew.  Cal South doesn't allow a 2 man crew (which I believe is a mistake given the shortage of referees and that a 2 man crew could effectively do a 9v9).

When it comes to the youngers, the Assigning Association will be faced with two problems.  Availability of referee crews and distance.  Referees are independent contractors, so the Referee Association will generally send out an availability request and assign games to the referees who responded.  There are often single games in out of way places that are very hard to fill because nobody want to drive 45 minutes to referee 1 or 2 game small-sided games.  Finding 3 people willing to do so is next to impossible.  The younger kids (more stamina) want 3-4 games ($$$) and the older guys want just a few higher level games (easier to referee two skilled teams playing possession soccer than two teams playing kick ball).


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> thank you . that is a great post . If I thought I could do better I would put myself out there. I know that I can not.  For the most part I feel the refs do a good job. It seems unfortunate that the pool seems to be judged/ assessed / labeled by the lowest common denominator. If you have been around a while , are there more games now than say 5 years ago? thus , stretching the resources of the ref pool.
> I also appreciate the mention of Fatigue someone has posted after multiple games physical and mental fatigue have to set in especially in SB / Norco.


Yes, there are more soccer games now than 5 years ago.  There are also fewer athletes playing Pop Warner football and many of those athletes are now in soccer.

From this Article: https://www.umbel.com/blog/sports/10-data-points-prove-soccer-has-made-it-in-america/
Not only is Major League Soccer as popular with 12- to 17-year olds (a pretty hard demographic to win over) as Major League Baseball. But they are also a lot more children and teens playing soccer now. The U.S. Youth Soccer organization says that participation in soccer is 30 times higher now than it was just 40 years ago. There were 103,432 children registered to play soccer in the U.S. in 1974, 1.6 million children registered to play in 1990, and more than 3 million registered to play in 2014. The Wall Street Journal noted that youth participation in soccer is double that of tackle football and larger than baseball by about 1 million participants. There are more than 80 Soccer Development Academy facilities that teach players about the international system and act as a conduit to MLS, EPL and Italian Serie A teams.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> Refs should know the rules because that is what they are paid to do, I can't tell you how many times refs didn't know the rules of a particular tournament this summer.  Nor how many times I've seen Ref's misqoute rules on this forum. My beef is not with Refs that miss calls (because all do, at all levels of the game) but with Refs that come ill prepared to do their job either mentally or physically.
> 
> Parents aren't required to know the rules.  They shouldn't abuse the refs whether they know the rules or not.  I like to know the rules because it makes the game more relevant and I can help my kid understand the rules and how they apply to him.
> 
> I always love the comment about if you don't like it than you become a Ref.  OK then don't ever complain about a meal if you don't become a chef, don't complain about your politician until you run for office, don't complain about a coach until you become licensed and start coaching etc...  Refs aren't volunteers, they are paid to perform a job competently.   Unfortunately, it's a volume and accountability issue and its too easy to blame it on parents and coaches.


Yes, Referees should know the rules (like the back of their hand).

Unfortunately, you absolutely and unequivocally wrong when you state "Parents aren't required to know the rules" (assuming you are a Cal South / USYS parent).  Cal South makes this a point in the Codes of Conduct that all parents are required to abide by as being a member (i.e. signing up your ward for soccer).  In particular, the Codes of Conduct for Parents, which you agreed to abide by each year you sign up your little one are:

*Parents and Spectators*
The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in "coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence the makeup of the team at any time. *Every parent and spectator is expected to*:

*Learn* and respect *the rules of soccer* and the rules of the CYSA-South.
Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.
Cheer for your child's team in a positive manner, refraining at all times from making negative or abusive remarks about the opposing team. Maintain control of your emotions and avoid actions, language, and/or gestures that may be interpreted as hostile and humiliating.
Ensure that your child is at all games and practices at the required time or provide the coach with an appropriate excuse beforehand.
Demonstrate appropriate gestures of sportsmanship at the conclusion of a game, win or lose.
Teach and practice good sportsmanship and fair play by personally demonstrating commitment to these virtues.
Promote the concept that soccer is merely a game, and that players and coaches on other teams are opponents, not enemies.
http://www.calsouth.com/downloads/Codes Of Conduct.pdf

Why would Cal South state that every Parent is expected to "Learn and respect the rules of soccer?"  Why would Cal South make this singular point the very first point of their code?  Why not bury it somewhere down the list?  Hmmmmm, curious?

Here is why.  Cal South in their infinite wisdom knows that the parents are ultimately their customers.  The parents are the ones with the pocketbook.  The parents dictate to junior what sport junior is going to play.  Having educated parents that understand the rules of soccer is fundamental to Cal South's mission of growing soccer.  Cal South realizes that it can't have a bunch of parents sitting on the sideline frustrated because they don't understand the game because they don't know the rules. Cal South's customer's enjoyment of a game is dependent upon learning and understanding the rules.

Cal South also knows that when it has an educated customer base it will have far fewer problems.  The parents will be able to answer little Johnny or Jenny's question on offside, why something was or wasn't a foul, why Bobby got a yellow card, the difference between shielding and impeding, etc., etc.  Cal South needs you parents to understand the rules because to grow soccer as a game requires an educated population on the rules.

As a newly educated parent on your duty, I hope you will never utter this vile phrase again "Parents aren't required to know the rules." Rather, I encourage you to join the ranks of the parent's that fulfill their contractual obligation to Cal South and learn the rules of soccer.

The Official Laws of the Game can be found here: http://www.theifab.com/laws
You can download the PDF here: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/278/082040_220517_LotG_17_18_FINAL_EN_150dpi.pdf

If you are not going to read every Law, then please study the most important ones for parents to know:

Law 5 - Referees
Law 6 - The Other Match Officials
Law 8 - The Start and Restart of Play
Law 9 - The Ball In and Out of Play
Law 11 - Offside
Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct
Law 13 - Free Kicks
Law 17 - The Corner Kick


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## Surfref (Sep 11, 2017)

Jsmb said:


> Watched refs call offside while player on his defense side of field.


I made two of those calls this weekend and they were correct calls, but I got yelled at by the coach and spectators.  I explained the change to the 2016-2017 LOTG to the coach and he thanked me.  The players started in an offside position and came onto their own half to receive the ball.  The restart is where the played the ball in their own half.  The coach and spectators assumed the referee crew got the call wrong because the restart was in the players own half.


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> Yes, Referees should know the rules (like the back of their hand).
> 
> Unfortunately, you absolutely and unequivocally wrong when you state "Parents aren't required to know the rules" (assuming you are a Cal South / USYS parent).  Cal South makes this a point in the Codes of Conduct that all parents are required to abide by as being a member (i.e. signing up your ward for soccer).  In particular, the Codes of Conduct for Parents, which you agreed to abide by each year you sign up your little one are:


Having worn the 4 hats (coach/parent/ref/player), I think part of the problem with soccer is that the rules aren't very accessible.  The Laws give you the broad brush strokes but 1) there are a lot of things that are left to the refs discretion (which means different refs will call things differently), and 2) there are quite a few gaps in the Laws which can only be really understood through practical experience or by researching the supplemental materials.  Reading the Laws themselves won't do most inexperienced people much good (and the structure leaving the important rules to the end isn't particularly helpful).  Football and baseball have a complicated rules scheme (in some ways more so than soccer)....but the rules are pretty cut and dry (for the most part, not always)....the soccer Laws have some ambiguity built into them.  

4 examples from the weekend: a ref that insisted that goalkeepers could not kick their gks (only roll) with the new buildup line rule...I'm pretty sure from what I've read that's not right, but maybe there's a document floating out there I haven't seen...in any case, CalSouth didn't give the parents  any input on what to expect and I found myself having to lawyer the rule (since as a sometime ref/and licensed but not practicing coach) with the ref since I had the doc too.  I know the refs/coaches had meetings on these changes, but I got my document only the weeks before the season.  And I only ref youngers...I can't imagine the pros that have a ton of other concerns sitting down to focus on the obscure rules for 2008/2009....there's also an ambiguity in those rules over whether the ref must stop the game and set the line or whether the keeper can waive the stop.

Lot of elbowing in the game...sometimes to the chest, sometimes to the face.  If the ref had made a few elbow calls early on, maybe the players get it and say o.k. better not do it.  But the call did come (very rarely) and no one (not even me) was sure why the ref called it sometimes, and why not other times, other than maybe he saw it or didn't.

The keeper charge...we all saw it on the video a few months back...same thing happened in our game.  Our striker literally went spinning over and our side was screaming for a pk (didn't help the game was tied at the time).  I explained to my side it was an entirely fair charge...keeper is generally given preference in the box and he had contact with the ball...no foul.  There's no where parents could really look for this, even if they were inclined to (which in our team there might be quite a few takers).

Hands.  We've also seen it, we all know it.  The rules leave it entirely to the ref to determine whether the ball is played, and different refs call it differently.  When it happens I know I'm going to get yelled at, particularly since I generally take a beat to see if the player has played the ball or the ball played the player.


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## socalkdg (Sep 11, 2017)

We had an AR that wasn't keeping pace with the last defender and pretty much stayed near the 18.   One or our parents was yelling at him a bit.   After reading much of what is said I have more sympathy for him.   At least we had 3 referees.   Even at the 18 he could see offside pretty accurately, and I do believe it was his 3rd game of the day and heat and exhaustion would be playing a big part in his energy.

Keep my mouth shut is what my wife constantly reminds me, and I must adhere to this.


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## socalkdg (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> H
> Lot of elbowing in the game...sometimes to the chest, sometimes to the face.  If the ref had made a few elbow calls early on, maybe the players get it and say o.k. better not do it.  But the call did come (very rarely) and no one (not even me) was sure why the ref called it sometimes, and why not other times, other than maybe he saw it or didn't.
> 
> The keeper charge...we all saw it on the video a few months back...same thing happened in our game.  Our striker literally went spinning over and our side was screaming for a pk (didn't help the game was tied at the time).  I explained to my side it was an entirely fair charge...keeper is generally given preference in the box and he had contact with the ball...no foul.  There's no where parents could really look for this, even if they were inclined to (which in our team there might be quite a few takers).


Love these two.   Elbows are dangerous to the face.   I feel that this should be called every time a face is involved.


I believe the rules state:

There are six offences in which contact is made with an opponent that cause a direct free kick to be awarded:

kicks an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
trips an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
charges an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
strikes an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
pushes an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
holds an opponent


But what is carelessly, recklessly, or excessive.   I know when my kid attacks the ball as keeper, she doesn't feel like she is being careless, reckless, or excessive, she believes she can get the ball.   But elbows and pushing from behind always seem reckless or careless.   

I also understand that keeping the game in motion is just as important and a push or elbow that doesn't really change the game might not get called.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Love these two.   Elbows are dangerous to the face.   I feel that this should be called every time a face is involved.
> 
> 
> I believe the rules state:
> ...


Here is a good example of not reading the rules.  Your basic question is answered in IFAB Law 12 (http://www.theifab.com/laws/fouls-and-misconduct/chapters/direct-free-kick)

Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off.
If I could get the parents to do just 1 thing it would be go to the source material.  Read the IFAB rule and the notes.  99% of your questions are going to be answered there.  Then accept the fact that the Referee has to make a determination of the degree a Law was broken.  We ask:

Was the foul careless? (i.e. lack of attention or consideration)
If careless, was the foul Trifling?  (i.e. not serious and calling it would disrupt the flow of the game, spectator enjoyment, etc.)
Was the foul reckless? (i.e. disregard to the danger to, or consequences for and opponent)
Was the foul done with excessive force? (i.e. exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent)?
Its all in the Laws of the Game.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> We had an AR that wasn't keeping pace with the last defender and pretty much stayed near the 18.   One or our parents was yelling at him a bit.   After reading much of what is said I have more sympathy for him.   At least we had 3 referees.   Even at the 18 he could see offside pretty accurately, and I do believe it was his 3rd game of the day and heat and exhaustion would be playing a big part in his energy.
> 
> Keep my mouth shut is what my wife constantly reminds me, and I must adhere to this.


The official line is that AR's need to keep pace with the players.

The reality is that AR's need to gauge their ability to keep pace and their current fatigue level (especially when doing 3-4 games) and position themselves in a way that allows them to effectively do their job.  Most AR's cheat by watching the play, team with possession, distance between defenders and strikers, and positioning themselves in a location that is consistent with where the players will likely be when a potential offside call will need to be made.   Sitting on the 18 isn't good, but I would rather have an AR that cheats forward of the play than hopelessly behind the play.


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## timbuck (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> Having worn the 4 hats (coach/parent/ref/player), I think part of the problem with soccer is that the rules aren't very accessible.  The Laws give you the broad brush strokes but 1) there are a lot of things that are left to the refs discretion (which means different refs will call things differently), and 2) there are quite a few gaps in the Laws which can only be really understood through practical experience or by researching the supplemental materials.  Reading the Laws themselves won't do most inexperienced people much good (and the structure leaving the important rules to the end isn't particularly helpful).  Football and baseball have a complicated rules scheme (in some ways more so than soccer)....but the rules are pretty cut and dry (for the most part, not always)....the soccer Laws have some ambiguity built into them.
> 
> 4 examples from the weekend: a ref that insisted that goalkeepers could not kick their gks (only roll) with the new buildup line rule...I'm pretty sure from what I've read that's not right, but maybe there's a document floating out there I haven't seen...in any case, CalSouth didn't give the parents  any input on what to expect and I found myself having to lawyer the rule (since as a sometime ref/and licensed but not practicing coach) with the ref since I had the doc too.  I know the refs/coaches had meetings on these changes, but I got my document only the weeks before the season.  And I only ref youngers...I can't imagine the pros that have a ton of other concerns sitting down to focus on the obscure rules for 2008/2009....there's also an ambiguity in those rules over whether the ref must stop the game and set the line or whether the keeper can waive the stop.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of nuances that you only understand if you have been on the whistle or an AR.
Example from our game, where I believe the ref made the wrong call.  I didn't flip out on him. I asked him to confirm at halftime what I thought he call and he confirmed.  No need to get upset at something that happened 20 minutes earlier.
Ball in the other teams Penalty Area.  Ball hits a girls outstretched hand.  Ref puts whistle to mouth.  Ball falls to our players foot.  Ref takes whistle out of his mouth and says "play on."
My understanding is that you never play "Advantage" on a handling call in the box.  We wound up losing by a goal. This play was not the reason we lost, but it might have helped to have a PK early in the game.
Ref also let a lot of fouls to early in the game and tightened up a lot in the last 25 minutes.  I thought he called a decent game, but interrupted the flow a bit more than I would have liked.
(My parents were freaking out over a few missed throw-ins.  I dont ever get upset about throw ins.  Count to 5 and the other team wins the ball anyway).


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## SitByMyself (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> @charlie murphy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the most accurate statement I've heard in a long time.  My teenagers aged 13 and 17 are refs.  There is such a shortage they can ref every weekend if they wanted to.  Guess what?  It's great money for a teenager but they hate it.  They don't like getting yelled at.  Imagine that?   They are out there in the hot sun doing multiple games with little break and they are good kids trying their best.  They will only do younger games and now only want to be AR's.  They've had obnoxious parents try to show them video of their mistakes during their precious 10 minute break!  Just last weekend my son got screamed at by a parent because they only had 2 refs.  Yes, it wasn't good.  But he's just a kid who showed up to the field he was assigned to.  He gave her the phone number of the person who contacted him to ref and sent her to the field marshal.  The field marshal was Another teenager who had no idea what to do so the parent went nuts.  I'm a soccer parent too so I get it.  We pay a lot of money for these tournaments/league games and want a quality product.  But If we as parents (consumers of a product) want to grow the ref pool so everyone gets better refs we need to be more considerate of the ones we are training. There is a huge shortage of refs so we shouldn't be scaring off the youth referees.  Treat them with a little respect and understanding.


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> Here is a good example of not reading the rules.  Your basic question is answered in IFAB Law 12 (http://www.theifab.com/laws/fouls-and-misconduct/chapters/direct-free-kick)
> 
> Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
> Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
> ...



I've agreed with most of what you've said up to now.  But here's where I disagree and it's probably the lawyer in me.  One reasonable persons interpretation of what is "disregard to the danger to, or consequence for an opponent" might differ from another's.  I could even build a case that says a keeper's charge always to some extent disregards the danger to or consequences to a striker.  And no parents are going to weed into the notes.  That's one of the problems with the laws.  They read like many of our day to day laws do, which not only require reading the laws, but also the court precedents and interpretations thereof.  That's not a readily accessible system of governance.  So I'm sympathetic with refs who say the parents don't even bother reading the laws.  I'm also sympathetic to the parents that say the laws don't make any sense.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> @Eagle33,
> 
> The way this typically works during league play is as follows:
> 
> ...


@MWN
I am well aware how this all works. All I'm saying that there is no requirements by the leagues to have more than 1 referee on any of the games. At U-littles AND U-olders it could be 1 referee or 2 or 3, as long as Diagonal System is used - basically 1 whistle. 1 referee can have 2 club linesman (parents from the team) that allow to call ball in-out of bound ONLY - no Offside. 
You are 100% correct, Cal South doesn't want to use and don't want to even hear about using Dual System, or 2 whistles. It would help to not only cover more games but also will allow for existing referees to cover more games, since it would require a lot less running per game.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Sep 11, 2017)

Here is the breakdown for Referee fees in SCDSL this year and it clearly does not state a minimum of 3 referee for 9v9 or any age group.


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## Surfref (Sep 11, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> Great post.  I never thought about the fatigue factor of reffing 3 games with no breaks.  12 miles a game for FIFA refs?  Impressive.


I refereed 5 games Saturday (2 9v9 games with two centers and 3 U16-19 games with one center) and 4 games Sunday (U17-19 games with 2 centers).  Exhausted would be an understatement for how I felt Sunday evening and I am still rehydrating today since I have three adult games tomorrow evening.  On the three 90 minutes games I ran 5.8, 6.9 and 7.2 miles.  What people forget about is the mental fatigue.  Just going out and running 6-7 miles around San Diego Bay is easy and relaxing for me.  The difficult part is running that distance while processing a soccer game.  As a CR I have to process how the players are playing, formation, foul or no foul, advantage, style of play offense and defense, paying attention to what the players are saying, individual player styles and skill level, subs, injuries, etc.  I also have to process what my ARs are telling me with both verbal and nonverbal cues.  As an AR, I may only run 3-4 miles in a 90 minute game but I am still mentally processing almost as much as the CR.  What makes it worse for me is I get a lazy referee on my crew.  The rest of the crew has to pick up his slack.  I would rather have an inexperienced ref than a lazy ref.  At least with the inexperienced AR I can instruct them on what I want and don't want them to help me with.  Most new referee's do not realize actually how far they will run in a game or consider the mental aspect of being a referee.  Now, throw into the equation the coach and parents yelling at you and questioning your decisions.  Most youth referee's are not mentally prepared to process a fast paced soccer game and catch crap from the sidelines.  I am surprised that more youth referee's don't drop out after their first year.

If those parents and some coaches continue to belittle and question the referees, especially the new ones, there will continue to be a referee shortage 

Are there lazy or bad refs?  Yes.  Most experienced refs know the lazy ones, slow ones, don't give a shit ones, ones that are just in it for the cash, and the flat out bad ones.  Do I enjoy working with them, usually not but I still try to provide them with some mentorship.


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## watfly (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> Yes, Referees should know the rules (like the back of their hand).
> 
> Unfortunately, you absolutely and unequivocally wrong when you state "Parents aren't required to know the rules" (assuming you are a Cal South / USYS parent).  Cal South makes this a point in the Codes of Conduct that all parents are required to abide by as being a member (i.e. signing up your ward for soccer).  In particular, the Codes of Conduct for Parents, which you agreed to abide by each year you sign up your little one are:
> 
> ...


Maybe bad choice of words, let me rephrase..."Parents aren't required to implement the LOTG".  Like I said, which you obviously missed, I think its important for me to know the laws of the game.  But whether or not a parent knows the LOTG, has no impact on the Ref's ability to do his job.  A parent abusing a ref is wrong whether the parent knows the LOTG or not. Whether the parent is right or wrong about a call is meaningless.  An incompetent ref is no better than an abusive parent.  Yes, it would be nice if more parents knew every single rule and intepretation of the game, circuit and tournament (which they aren't paid to do) but if you think that will change a chirping parent to a quiet chair sitter then I have some waterfront property in Houston for you (too soon?).   Here's the thing, the problem parents are the ones who think they know the rules and are in full compliance with item 1 of Code of Conduct. 

GraceT brings up an excellent point regarding accessibility of the rules of the game.  How are parents expected to "*Learn* and respect *the rules of soccer* and the rules of the CYSA-South" when many of the rules aren't made available to parents.  I hear time and time again from Refs here that some rule is in place that contradicts published rules.  They state that they heard it at a meeting or read it somewhere, but when asked to provide evidence its crickets.   There seems to be a whole black box of unwritten rules, which so be it, but don't put the expectation on the parents to know every rule when that's what Ref's are paid for.

I see the common comment from Refs about how it would be so much better without parents and make parents out to be the enemy.  Those refs seem to forget their commitment to ensure "spectator enjoyment" of the game.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 11, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I made two of those calls this weekend and they were correct calls, but I got yelled at by the coach and spectators. I explained the change to the 2016-2017 LOTG to the coach and he thanked me. The players started in an offside position and came onto their own half to receive the ball. The restart is where the played the ball in their own half. The coach and spectators assumed the referee crew got the call wrong because the restart was in the players own half.


I had a similar situation in a game Saturday. A player was in an off-side position, heading toward the half, when the ball was played up. The player crossed into his own half, turned around and ran up field again to be the first to play the ball. The 15 year old youth AR correctly raised her flag, I blew the whistle and the coach went ape-shit. I explained that the player was in an offside position when the ball was played and was called when he became involved in the play. 

The coach said that he came into his own half and therefore was 'reset' and wasn't off-side anymore. I said that he was wrong but I'm not going to argue with him about it. 

I hope that he evaluates my performance in that match and includes every detail of the exchange. He seemed just fine with my performance except for that 1 instance of my incompetence.

I came back to soccer when my child got involved, having never played beyond the age of 11. The game is a lot more enjoyable to watch when you understand the laws and how referees are instructed to apply them.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Sep 11, 2017)

If you want to improve the level of referee performance I would suggest the following:

EVERY competitive player is required to obtain a grade 8 or 9 referee license (depending on the age of the player) during their 1st year of competitive play.  The player is then required to referee a minimum of 4 games (2 as a CR and 2 as an AR).  The referees would not be paid for these games; this is part of the "cost" of being a competitive player.  The referees would be utilized for local rec or AYSO games.  This would increase the players' knowledge of the rules.  This would allow for the players to gain an understudying of how & why the games are called the way they are, and this would hopefully encourage parents to be more patient with the referees since their kid is going to have to referee some games.  Over time this should increase the pool of eligible referees (start them young) and it would increase the overall game knowledge for everyone hauling heir kids out to games. 

My daughter and her teammate volunteered to referee some local AYSO games this weekend.  I can tell you:
1 - they made mistakes 
2- they got better each 1/4 that they refereed (AYSO has 1/4s at this age)
3 - they have a better understanding of the rules today than they did on Friday 
4 - they have more appreciation for the work of referees 
5 - they learned how to deal with a coach who didn't like how they called the game
6 - it was a good experience, they want to do it again, and they were learning to be more assertive with parents/coaches that didn't like the calls.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

@watfly, unless a parent has read the IFAB (Law of the Game) they have not complied with the Code of Conduct.  There is only 1 source for the official laws.  The beauty here is if they had actually read the Laws of the Game they would understand that a fundamental Law of the Game is that you don't challenge the Referee's decision:

Law 5

1. The authority of the referee Each match is controlled by a referee who has full authority to enforce the Laws of the Game in connection with the match.​
2. Decisions of the referee Decisions will be made to the best of the referee`s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.

*The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected*.

The referee may not change a decision on realising that it is incorrect or on the advice of another match official if play has restarted or the referee has signalled the end of the first or second half (including extra time) and left the field of play or terminated the match. If a referee is incapacitated, play may continue under the supervision of the other match officials until the ball is next out of play.​
The answer to every single question or challenge to a referee's call or non-call during a game that get's spectators all riled up is: "Clearly it was in the Referee's opinion that the facts observed by the Referee did/did not warrant a different call."

This doesn't mean that a different referee, in a different position, or on a different day or the same referee in a different game would make the same call.  One of the things the referee's are asked to do is to make "no call" when an careless foul is trifling.


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## socalkdg (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> Here is a good example of not reading the rules.  Your basic question is answered in IFAB Law 12 (http://www.theifab.com/laws/fouls-and-misconduct/chapters/direct-free-kick)
> 
> Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
> Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
> ...


But it isn't 2+2=4

The angle of a persons view greatly affects how each person sees these interactions.   Plus one referee's reckless isn't going to be the same as another referees reckless.  We parents have to remember this when in one game something happens that is called, and in another game it isn't.   Especially #2, but I think due to #2, the intensity ramps up and we start getting a bunch of #3 and #4.  

Was the foul reckless? (i.e. disregard to the danger to, or consequences for and opponent)    
Isn't my daughter diving in front of a player with the ball when playing keeper a bit reckless as there is always danger and a consequence for one or the other, sometimes both.

I say increase the pay to refs, get more refs, get more refs to stay and get more experience, thus becoming better.


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## timbuck (Sep 11, 2017)

If I was told that my kid could play club soccer for free (or a massive discount), I would move my AYSO intermediate badge to Grade 8 and referee quite often.  As it stands, I like volunteering and giving back to the AYSO region in our area.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> But it isn't 2+2=4
> 
> The angle of a persons view greatly affects how each person sees these interactions.   Plus one referee's reckless isn't going to be the same as another referees reckless.  We parents have to remember this when in one game something happens that is called, and in another game it isn't.   Especially #2, but I think due to #2, the intensity ramps up and we start getting a bunch of #3 and #4.
> 
> ...


The Referee can't call what they didn't see.  Being blocked by players frequently occurs and smart players use the Referee's position to their advantage if they are going to play dirty.

What is "careless" versus "reckless" is different when we have U19 Flight 1/Gold v. U13 Flight 3/Bronze v. U9s.  We evaluate the skill of the players, the temperature/tenor of the game, etc.  We know that the 1st half is going to probably go smoothly, but the 2nd half is going to get a bit chippy when a team is down by 1 or 2.  Are these boys?  Girls?  All these factor into a perception of careless v. reckless.

When it comes to keepers, the Referee and players have a hightened duty to protect the safety of keepers who typically use their hands on the ground.  Because keepers can use their hands the other players must not be careless or reckless.

If we were to state the Law in a positive tone, then the "Don't play careless, reckless or with excessive force" is better understood as follows:

Every player owes a duty of care to every other players to play in a careful manner so as not to expose the other players to unreasonable risk of injury.​Virtually all of the discord comes down to 50/50 balls.  Both players have an opportunity to get to the ball with fast, aggressive play.  The Referee will be faced with the task of deciding if the players actions were careless and/or reckless and/or excessive.  Getting to the ball first doesn't matter if the act of getting there was followed by a "reckless" use of the body that disregarded the safety of the opponent.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

Increasing the pay grade is not going to increase the ref pool. I really doubt that in southern California there is a person who counts only on  ref fees and refs as a career choice. Now if  $ was based  on the grade of the ref then you might create incentive for refs to invest in themselves and participate in association trainings and continued education. Furthermore, the association could aid in performance through merit by  holding back a small portion of each game's ref fees and using that  pooled money to pay for championship games as a bonus/ differentials.  There would be an incentive during the season for each ref to do the very best they could each and every game. The players have to perform to a certain level to compete in these games,  why not the refs. It would be additional work . The association would then have to perform on field evaluations  on a regular basis. Evaluations are not always negative and a positive evaluation would be a very positive affirmation of a refs hard work in light of the negatives coming from the side line. just throwing this out there maybe someone with the ability will read this and think it is one hell of a good idea.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> I hear time and time again from Refs here that some rule is in place that contradicts published rules. They state that they heard it at a meeting or read it somewhere, but when asked to provide evidence its crickets. There seems to be a whole black box of unwritten rules, which so be it, but don't put the expectation on the parents to know every rule when that's what Ref's are paid for.


For that you should blame the tournament that your team probably paid over $1000 to play in. Every tournament had different short sided rules of competition. I don't think it is fair to pin that one on the referees. Every training session, monthly meeting and other development activity I've had in my brief stint as a competitive referee has cited the written laws of the game and the written interpretations, with the exception of last season when the heading was being sorted out. I did hear contradictory hear-say from some circuit and league directors. Heading was a done deal until the 2018 Summer tournaments got things all stirred up and they made a mess of the build out line, punts and kick offs because they kept wanting to stuff short sided games onto fields that were too small.

My pregame with 9v9 teams last weekend emphasized that they should forget what they were told about punts, when goals score and other things. We are playing regular soccer (with the exception of heading in U11) the same as the older kids. The coaches and players were very happy to hear it. I have yet to referee a 7v7 with BOL, but that is fairly straight forward, and covered in writing, too.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 11, 2017)

Surfref said:


> On the three 90 minutes games I ran 5.8, 6.9 and 7.2 miles


I hope you took an ice bath and knocked back a few cold ones.  I can't run that far in one day even if I'm being chased by dogs.  #respect


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I refereed 5 games Saturday (2 9v9 games with two centers and 3 U16-19 games with one center) and 4 games Sunday (U17-19 games with 2 centers).  Exhausted would be an understatement for how I felt Sunday evening and I am still rehydrating today since I have three adult games tomorrow evening.  On the three 90 minutes games I ran 5.8, 6.9 and 7.2 miles.  What people forget about is the mental fatigue.  Just going out and running 6-7 miles around San Diego Bay is easy and relaxing for me.  The difficult part is running that distance while processing a soccer game.  As a CR I have to process how the players are playing, formation, foul or no foul, advantage, style of play offense and defense, paying attention to what the players are saying, individual player styles and skill level, subs, injuries, etc.  I also have to process what my ARs are telling me with both verbal and nonverbal cues.  As an AR, I may only run 3-4 miles in a 90 minute game but I am still mentally processing almost as much as the CR.  What makes it worse for me is I get a lazy referee on my crew.  The rest of the crew has to pick up his slack.  I would rather have an inexperienced ref than a lazy ref.  At least with the inexperienced AR I can instruct them on what I want and don't want them to help me with.  Most new referee's do not realize actually how far they will run in a game or consider the mental aspect of being a referee.  Now, throw into the equation the coach and parents yelling at you and questioning your decisions.  Most youth referee's are not mentally prepared to process a fast paced soccer game and catch crap from the sidelines.  I am surprised that more youth referee's don't drop out after their first year.
> 
> If those parents and some coaches continue to belittle and question the referees, especially the new ones, there will continue to be a referee shortage
> 
> Are there lazy or bad refs?  Yes.  Most experienced refs know the lazy ones, slow ones, don't give a shit ones, ones that are just in it for the cash, and the flat out bad ones.  Do I enjoy working with them, usually not but I still try to provide them with some mentorship.


i was over 20 miles saturday, and 14 yesterday. i had three great high level boys whistles. i'd rather not do 34 miles in two days, but who can do it better than i can? haha!


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> Every player owes a duty of care to every other players to play in a careful manner so as not to expose the other players to unreasonable risk of injury.​.


Reads like a negligence standard in tort law.  And the case law is filled with court cases and conflicting precedent that varies from context to context over what it means to have "a duty to care" and what is an "unreasonable" act or omission.  And in the legal system we have [well...had] books filled with precedent, judges and juries to decide all this over a course of years.  

Soccer places the ref (with varying levels of competence and ability) as judge and jury to make the call within a course of seconds.  So given the ambiguity in the rules, and the very wide discretion given to soccer refs, I'm not really surprised by the controversy.  It's an issue with the Laws themselves.

Also, if I understand correctly, no where in the Laws does it plainly say the keeper should be given some more leeway by refs either for their safety, because they play with their hands, or because the challenge takes place in the box.  Those are all interpretations that have developed based on the notes and custom and practice.  So how's a football parent whose DD is playing soccer for the first time supposed to know that?


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

GunninGopher said:


> . I have yet to referee a 7v7 with BOL, but that is fairly straight forward, and covered in writing, too.


It's not.  We've had issues.  Our ref told us this weekend the keepers couldn't kick their goalkicks or kick the long ball...they had to roll their goalkicks to someone on the fair side of the buildout line.  I'm pretty sure that wrong (unless there's some other doc out there other than the CalSouth rules I circulated).

There's also an ambiguity in the rules over whether the keeper must wait for the opposing team to have the ref set the build out line...talking with some 2008 parents from other teams last night and a coach from another team at a party, some refs are forcing the keepers to wait and others aren't.  A literal reading of the rules seem to imply the keeper must wait (which hands a big advantage back to the other side).  The flip to that is if a keeper releases early if the other side can challenge even if they are over the line.

The other big issue is the new offside rule...the rule itself is straight forward but it's causing all sorts of problems.  Maybe it's just early roll out jitters but so far it's a cluster-f.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> It's not. ... Maybe it's just early roll out jitters but so far it's a cluster-f.


 Yeah the BOL rule requires a whole other thread.


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> It's not.  We've had issues.  Our ref told us this weekend the keepers couldn't kick their goalkicks or kick the long ball...they had to roll their goalkicks to someone on the fair side of the buildout line.  I'm pretty sure that wrong (unless there's some other doc out there other than the CalSouth rules I circulated).
> 
> There's also an ambiguity in the rules over whether the keeper must wait for the opposing team to have the ref set the build out line...talking with some 2008 parents from other teams last night and a coach from another team at a party, some refs are forcing the keepers to wait and others aren't.  A literal reading of the rules seem to imply the keeper must wait (which hands a big advantage back to the other side).  The flip to that is if a keeper releases early if the other side can challenge even if they are over the line.
> 
> The other big issue is the new offside rule...the rule itself is straight forward but it's causing all sorts of problems.  Maybe it's just early roll out jitters but so far it's a cluster-f.


I had some games using the build out line and it wasn't a cluster F. no ambiguity that i know of.  you're over thinking counselor. it's basically 8 year olds kicking a ball around.


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> I had some games using the build out line and it wasn't a cluster F. no ambiguity that i know of.  you're over thinking counselor. it's basically 8 year olds kicking a ball around.


Ahh but good sir, you are one of the "good refs"  So may I ask what you did?  Did you let the goalkeepers kick the ball or did you force them to roll it.

Did the goalkeeper have the option to distribute before the line was set?  If so how did you treat the players that were out of position forward to the line?

What did you think of the offside rule and how did the team react?

ps you may think it's just kids kicking the ball, but my GK son has been told now to do this 5 different ways...good lesson as a GK yes, but they're 9 and it may not be important to you, but it is to him.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> It's not.  We've had issues.  Our ref told us this weekend the keepers couldn't kick their goalkicks or kick the long ball...they had to roll their goalkicks to someone on the fair side of the buildout line.  I'm pretty sure that wrong (unless there's some other doc out there other than the CalSouth rules I circulated).
> 
> There's also an ambiguity in the rules over whether the keeper must wait for the opposing team to have the ref set the build out line...talking with some 2008 parents from other teams last night and a coach from another team at a party, some refs are forcing the keepers to wait and others aren't.  A literal reading of the rules seem to imply the keeper must wait (which hands a big advantage back to the other side).  The flip to that is if a keeper releases early if the other side can challenge even if they are over the line.
> 
> The other big issue is the new offside rule...the rule itself is straight forward but it's causing all sorts of problems.  Maybe it's just early roll out jitters but so far it's a cluster-f.


Below are links to Cal-South's documentation, which I received by e-mail directly from Cal-South. Not sure if it is because I'm a team manager or referee:

7v7 Environment

9v9 Environment

I read them again and now I'm going to back off and say that maybe it isn't so straight forward.

The 7v7 document says "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line, the goalkeeper can pass, throw or roll the ball into play". This seems to infer that if the opponent hasn't cleared the line, that the keeper must wait, which is contradictory to what I recall being told in meetings. I will refer to my notes, but I'm pretty sure we were told that the keeper can play the ball whenever he/she wants to and if that happens, the players can challenge before getting to the line. The '6 seconds' doesn't start until the opponents have passed the line, however, if the keeper keeps the ball in hand.

The documentation above also doesn't say that the keeper is allowed to place the ball on the ground and kick or dribble it, which I understand is allowed. It isn't explicitly disallowed in the referenced guidelines. Again, I need to refer to my notes, but I can see where the guidelines above do leave some questions unanswered.

I've had a long day. Maybe someone can set me straight.


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> Ahh but good sir, you are one of the "good refs"  So may I ask what you did?  Did you let the goalkeepers kick the ball or did you force them to roll it.
> 
> Did the goalkeeper have the option to distribute before the line was set?  If so how did you treat the players that were out of position forward to the line?
> 
> ...


goal keepers can either throw it out, or set it on the ground and kick it. no punting or drop kicking allowed. 
goal keeper can release the ball as soon as he/she wants, although most coaches were urging them to wait. 
before the game, i talked to the players and coaches and gave a 30 second shpeel about what they needed to do. coaches took exception because coaches already know everything, but i did it any. 
offside after the build out line is fine. once again, these are 8/9 year olds or younger? who cares what the rules are. just let them go for it. 
I love these games. i have to shush some parents but it aint so bad.


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> goal keepers can either throw it out, or set it on the ground and kick it. no punting or drop kicking allowed.
> goal keeper can release the ball as soon as he/she wants, although most coaches were urging them to wait.
> before the game, i talked to the players and coaches and gave a 30 second shpeel about what they needed to do. coaches took exception because coaches already know everything, but i did it any.
> offside after the build out line is fine. once again, these are 8/9 year olds or younger? who cares what the rules are. just let them go for it.
> I love these games. i have to shush some parents but it aint so bad.


I said you were one of the "good refs".    That's consistent with what I got in my meeting, but not with what actually happened in either game I saw on Saturday (or from talking to a few parents on other teams).  It's also not what the rules actually say as Gunnin Gopher pointed out, and it seems to imply that the keeper must wait.  

Allowing the keeper to take the option of using the line or not would preserve the possibility of a long ball which would discourage opponents from lining up on the build up like a line of scrimmage.  The issue with the offside rule is that coaches are adapting to have their defenders take the long ball to a striker or wing in a formerly offside position...that's going to force teams to defend back towards the line rather than to press up (think AYSO before offsides are enforced...those teams generally have a defender sit back with the keeper).  Smart teams will then react by using the 8/6 to make use of that open space, but it's a risky move since it requires a long ball from the big legged defender to an 8/6.  And rather than teach kids to pass back (as we used to do) it seems to penalize them for passing backwards, particularly to the keeper.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> offside after the build out line is fine


Not sure what you mean there.  Could you elaborate?


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> Not sure what you mean there.  Could you elaborate?


Offside doesn't happen until past the build out line going forward. And that's fine?
I'm just if the opinion that it doesn't matter that much if ussf mucks up a bunch of silly rules. Just let the kids know what to do and let them do it. They're little kids and they're having fun. Parents and coaches care about this crap, the kids don't. They just play with what they're given. Even if some dufus ref goofs it, so what? If the coaches and parents don't scream and whine the kids don't know and don't care


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## watfly (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> Maybe bad choice of words, let me rephrase..."Parents aren't required to implement the LOTG".  Like I said, which you obviously missed, I think its important for me to know the laws of the game.  But whether or not a parent knows the LOTG, has no impact on the Ref's ability to do his job.  A parent abusing a ref is wrong whether the parent knows the LOTG or not. Whether the parent is right or wrong about a call is meaningless.  An incompetent ref is no better than an abusive parent.  Yes, it would be nice if more parents knew every single rule and intepretation of the game, circuit and tournament (which they aren't paid to do) but if you think that will change a chirping parent to a quiet chair sitter then I have some waterfront property in Houston for you (too soon?).   Here's the thing, the problem parents are the ones who think they know the rules and are in full compliance with item 1 of Code of Conduct.
> 
> GraceT brings up an excellent point regarding accessibility of the rules of the game.  How are parents expected to "*Learn* and respect *the rules of soccer* and the rules of the CYSA-South" when many of the rules aren't made available to parents.  I hear time and time again from Refs here that some rule is in place that contradicts published rules.  They state that they heard it at a meeting or read it somewhere, but when asked to provide evidence its crickets.   There seems to be a whole black box of unwritten rules, which so be it, but don't put the expectation on the parents to know every rule when that's what Ref's are paid for.
> 
> I see the common comment from Refs about how it would be so much better without parents and make parents out to be the enemy.  Those refs seem to forget their commitment to ensure "spectator enjoyment" of the game.[/QUOT





MWN said:


> @watfly, unless a parent has read the IFAB (Law of the Game) they have not complied with the Code of Conduct.  There is only 1 source for the official laws.  The beauty here is if they had actually read the Laws of the Game they would understand that a fundamental Law of the Game is that you don't challenge the Referee's decision:
> 
> Law 5
> 
> ...


I understand completely and agree that calls are 100% at the discretion of the ref, I have zero problem with that and I don't need a refresher course.  I will say it again, what I have a problem with is refs that don't show up to a game mentality and physically prepared to fulfill their game responsibilities.  Being mentality prepared includes having read and understood the rules as they apply to a particular league or tournament.

Your implication that parents' knowledge of the LOTG impacts a ref's ability to perform his duties is ludicrous and deflects blame.  It is also absurd to claim that there is some sort of equivalency between a parent's responsibility and the ref's responsibility to know the LOTG.  If the issue is that you are offended by someone that is questioning you with less knowledge than you than that is an entirely different matter.

As I said before, the problem parents think they know the LOTG.  What's your suggestion?  Should CalSouth make all parents pass a LOTG test?  Should parents not be allowed to sit on the sideline if they haven't passed the LOTG exam?  What would you recommend for a passing score?  Can you call my wife and let her know that she, along with 1,000's of other soccer parents, are in violation of the Cal South Code of Conduct since she hasn't read IFAB.  Also let her know that its "vile" if she doesn't think her       sideline friends should have to know IFAB.  Please return and report how that goes.

I'm not on a ref witch hunt here (although maybe I'm a little sensitive after yesterday's ref debacle)... let the record reflect that my first response to this thread was against the public shaming of refs and for letting coaches handle the matter with the league and association.


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## Grace T. (Sep 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> Offside doesn't happen until past the build out line going forward. And that's fine?
> I'm just if the opinion that it doesn't matter that much if ussf mucks up a bunch of silly rules. Just let the kids know what to do and let them do it. They're little kids and they're having fun. Parents and coaches care about this crap, the kids don't. They just play with what they're given. Even if some dufus ref goofs it, so what? If the coaches and parents don't scream and whine the kids don't know and don't care



That's not true.  Dear keeper son cares a lot (and not because of me...I'm the one that keeps encouraging him to just go with all the rules changes and assured him the ref would explain before the match...when the ref didn't I asked him in a friendly manner if he might give the kids a run down of the new rules).  He's the one that's under pressure and get singled out (his counterpart on the first game was really shaken up by the entire thing....have seen him play before....the sudden last minute switch really threw him off).  They'll play with any set of rules you give them, but they look for consistency and clarity....having things constantly change week to week doesn't enhance the fun.  Hopefully CalSouth will get the refs all on the same page soon and clarify the printed rules.


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> That's not true.  Dear keeper son cares a lot (and not because of me...I'm the one that keeps encouraging him to just go with all the rules changes and assured him the ref would explain before the match...when the ref didn't I asked him in a friendly manner if he might give the kids a run down of the new rules).  He's the one that's under pressure and get singled out (his counterpart on the first game was really shaken up by the entire thing....have seen him play before....the sudden last minute switch really threw him off).  They'll play with any set of rules you give them, but they look for consistency and clarity....having things constantly change week to week doesn't enhance the fun.  Hopefully CalSouth will get the refs all on the same page soon and clarify the printed rules.


im sure there are exceptions to my generalizations and keepers are always an exception. Just kidding, my standard goalies are different joke. 
My point was more that, at that young age, the less parents and coaches make an issue of such minor details the less the kids will notice if at all.

Yes. In a perfect world all referees would be as wonderful as I am and skittle rainbows would fall from the sky. There are dufus referees, some of which are more dufus then acceptable. But, nothing in application of the rules is life or death at U8
Or 9
Or 13
Or........


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## coachrefparent (Sep 11, 2017)

watfly said:


> I understand completely and agree that calls are 100% at the discretion of the ref, I have zero problem with that and I don't need a refresher course.  I will say it again, what I have a problem with is refs that don't show up to a game mentality and physically prepared to fulfill their game responsibilities.  Being mentality prepared includes having read and understood the rules as they apply to a particular league or tournament.
> 
> Your implication that parents' knowledge of the LOTG impacts a ref's ability to perform his duties is ludicrous and deflects blame.  It is also absurd to claim that there is some sort of equivalency between a parent's responsibility and the ref's responsibility to know the LOTG.  If the issue is that you are offended by someone that is questioning you with less knowledge than you than that is an entirely different matter.
> 
> ...


My suggestion for a solution to ignorant parents is for all parents to shut their mouths and not outwardly question calls made by referees, which is required by every gaming circuit's code of conduct that I have seen. 

Coaches can follow protocol and report to their gaming circuit director if they have a legitimate concern about referree competency. Parents have ZERO role in this process. Sorry.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> My suggestion for a solution to ignorant parents is for all parents to shut their mouths and not outwardly question calls made by referees, which is required by every gaming circuit's code of conduct that I have seen.
> 
> Coaches can follow protocol and report to their gaming circuit director if they have a legitimate concern about referree competency. Parents have ZERO role in this process. Sorry.[/QUOTE


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## charlie murphy (Sep 11, 2017)

What are you talking about? gaming circuit ? gaming circuit code of conduct? Are we in NV? Are you in NV? what is a gaming circuit? who is the gaming circuit director?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> What are you talking about? gaming circuit ? gaming circuit code of conduct? Are we in NV? Are you in NV? what is a gaming circuit? who is the gaming circuit director?


Who cares about the terminology? I am not using any terms of art. No I'm not in Nevada.


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## MWN (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> What are you talking about? gaming circuit ? gaming circuit code of conduct? Are we in NV? Are you in NV? what is a gaming circuit? who is the gaming circuit director?


"Gaming circuit" is synonymous with "League" (i.e. SCDSL, CSL, ECNL, DA, Presidio/SDDA, etc.).  It is the correct technical term.  See, http://www.calsouth.com/downloads/2008CircuitApplication.pdf


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## coachrefparent (Sep 11, 2017)

MWN said:


> "Gaming circuit" is synonymous with "League" (i.e. SCDSL, CSL, ECNL, DA, Presidio/SDDA, etc.).  It is the correct technical term.  See, http://www.calsouth.com/downloads/2008CircuitApplication.pdf


Thanks. I guess I was using a term of art.. I like to go to Vegas but wouldn't live in Nevada.


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## watfly (Sep 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Coaches can follow protocol and report to their gaming circuit director if they have a legitimate concern about referree competency. Parents have ZERO role in this process. Sorry.


No need to apologize, that's exactly what I've been saying.


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## Surfref (Sep 11, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> Increasing the pay grade is not going to increase the ref pool. I really doubt that in southern California there is a person who counts only on  ref fees and refs as a career choice. Now if  $ was based  on the grade of the ref then you might create incentive for refs to invest in themselves and participate in association trainings and continued education. Furthermore, the association could aid in performance through merit by  holding back a small portion of each game's ref fees and using that  pooled money to pay for championship games as a bonus/ differentials.  There would be an incentive during the season for each ref to do the very best they could each and every game. The players have to perform to a certain level to compete in these games,  why not the refs. It would be additional work . The association would then have to perform on field evaluations  on a regular basis. Evaluations are not always negative and a positive evaluation would be a very positive affirmation of a refs hard work in light of the negatives coming from the side line. just throwing this out there maybe someone with the ability will read this and think it is one hell of a good idea.


My two cents....the quality of new referee's have decreased since they changed from a 2-day new referee course to an online course.  The new referee's just don't seem as knowledgeable and ready for their first games.  The other problem is that Grade 7 refs used to have to complete a yearly assessment/evaluation  and a physical test (timed distance run and sprints) to advance from Grade 8 to 7 and then yearly to stay at 7.  Now all a referee basically has to do to move from Grade 8 to 7 is do a certain number of centers and take some online modules.  So, there really is not much difference between a Grade 8 and Grade 7 referee.  There are only around 140 Grade 6/State referee's in all of SoCal and some of those only work DA and adult games.  Theoretically the State refs should be on the top games, but that does not always happen.


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> My two cents....the quality of new referee's have decreased since they changed from a 2-day new referee course to an online course.  The new referee's just don't seem as knowledgeable and ready for their first games.  The other problem is that Grade 7 refs used to have to complete a yearly assessment/evaluation  and a physical test (timed distance run and sprints) to advance from Grade 8 to 7 and then yearly to stay at 7.  Now all a referee basically has to do to move from Grade 8 to 7 is do a certain number of centers and take some online modules.  So, there really is not much difference between a Grade 8 and Grade 7 referee.  There are only around 140 Grade 6/State referee's in all of SoCal and some of those only work DA and adult games.  Theoretically the State refs should be on the top games, but that does not always happen.


Maybe they're not as technically proficient, but I've been impressed with the few older teen refs we have had this season.  They were focused, active and enthusiastic...I'm a sucker for individuals that are enthusiastic about their jobs.


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## Dargle (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> That's not true.  Dear keeper son cares a lot (and not because of me...I'm the one that keeps encouraging him to just go with all the rules changes and assured him the ref would explain before the match...when the ref didn't I asked him in a friendly manner if he might give the kids a run down of the new rules).  He's the one that's under pressure and get singled out (his counterpart on the first game was really shaken up by the entire thing....have seen him play before....the sudden last minute switch really threw him off).  They'll play with any set of rules you give them, but they look for consistency and clarity....having things constantly change week to week doesn't enhance the fun.  Hopefully CalSouth will get the refs all on the same page soon and clarify the printed rules.


Just a clarification - Are you saying you're not the coach and yet you were present when the kids were checked in, heard that the ref didn't provide the instruction on the rules you desired and then asked, as a regular parent, if the ref could give the kids a run down of the new rules?  Or are you just saying you would like them to have done so after hearing your son's description of the check-in with the refs?  That sounds like an unusual situation if the former.  I've never seen the ref speak with the kids near the sidelines with the parents crowded around and, if it happened like that, I can't imagine any coach would want the parents to speak to the ref during that pre-game check-in period no matter how friendly the tone.


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## MWN (Sep 12, 2017)

Dargle said:


> Just a clarification - Are you saying you're not the coach and yet you were present when the kids were checked in, heard that the ref didn't provide the instruction on the rules you desired and then asked, as a regular parent, if the ref could give the kids a run down of the new rules?  Or are you just saying you would like them to have done so after hearing your son's description of the check-in with the refs?  That sounds like an unusual situation if the former.  I've never seen the ref speak with the kids near the sidelines with the parents crowded around and, if it happened like that, I can't imagine any coach would want the parents to speak to the ref during that pre-game check-in period no matter how friendly the tone.


When it comes to 7v7, my practice last week was to explain to the coach and players how the BOL (ball leaves the penalty area, etc.) was being called and answer any questions.  I then walked over to the sideline and invited questions from the parents on the rules effecting 7v7 and prefaced it with "I know you have had referees call these 7v7 games a variety of ways over the summer, so feel free to ask me for any clarifications."  I find engaging the parents and helping them understand the Laws and Rules makes for a happy sideline and a much more educated spectator that doesn't say stupid stuff.  It also makes them much less likely to be jerks to me.


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## Dargle (Sep 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> When it comes to 7v7, my practice last week was to explain to the coach and players how the BOL (ball leaves the penalty area, etc.) was being called and answer any questions.  I then walked over to the sideline and invited questions from the parents on the rules effecting 7v7 and prefaced it with "I know you have had referees call these 7v7 games a variety of ways over the summer, so feel free to ask me for any clarifications."  I find engaging the parents and helping them understand the Laws and Rules makes for a happy sideline and a much more educated spectator that doesn't say stupid stuff.  It also makes them much less likely to be jerks to me.


Sounds like a good approach.  Was that was done in this case Grace?  I literally haven't seen that ever done in almost ten years of doing club soccer (although I have seen refs address parents when a sideline was out of control), including in cases of rule changes like the new rules on headers.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

Dargle said:


> Just a clarification - Are you saying you're not the coach and yet you were present when the kids were checked in, heard that the ref didn't provide the instruction on the rules you desired and then asked, as a regular parent, if the ref could give the kids a run down of the new rules?  Or are you just saying you would like them to have done so after hearing your son's description of the check-in with the refs?  That sounds like an unusual situation if the former.  I've never seen the ref speak with the kids near the sidelines with the parents crowded around and, if it happened like that, I can't imagine any coach would want the parents to speak to the ref during that pre-game check-in period no matter how friendly the tone.


DYS is the keeper and hadn't been given the instruction (coach wasn't sure when we arrived what ref would be doing...he'd had the meeting like everyone else, but as I said, the instructions have been confusing).  Given that the tournaments were all called a variety of ways and we've gotten different stories from different refs, I've made it my practice (after one incident over the summer where he had gotten conflicting info from the coach, tournament organizers, and the ref and DYS was reduced to tears by teammates/sidelines/refs/coaches yelling conflicting instructions) to make sure he gets the official deal from the ref on the build out in before go.  Given we were 3 minutes away from start, and we still didn't know what he was suppose to do, I asked politely "would you mind ref giving them a quick run down of how you'll call the build out rule".  As MWN pointed out, even though I think he called it wrong (and I didn't call him on it til after the game), the ref was kind enough to do it and even if the game was called wrong, because everyone knew in advance what was happening, it avoided an otherwise bad situation.  MWN has some real excellent advice there.  They shouldn't have to do that, but as I've said, from what I've seen so far, the build out rule roll out is a cluster f.


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## Dargle (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> DYS is the keeper and hadn't been given the instruction (coach wasn't sure when we arrived what ref would be doing...he'd had the meeting like everyone else, but as I said, the instructions have been confusing).  Given that the tournaments were all called a variety of ways and we've gotten different stories from different refs, I've made it my practice (after one incident over the summer where he had gotten conflicting info from the coach, tournament organizers, and the ref and DYS was reduced to tears by teammates/sidelines/refs/coaches yelling conflicting instructions) to make sure he gets the official deal from the ref on the build out in before go.  Given we were 3 minutes away from start, and we still didn't know what he was suppose to do, I asked politely "would you mind ref giving them a quick run down of how you'll call the build out rule".  As MWN pointed out, even though I think he called it wrong (and I didn't call him on it til after the game), the ref was kind enough to do it and even if the game was called wrong, because everyone knew in advance what was happening, it avoided an otherwise bad situation.  MWN has some real excellent advice there.  They shouldn't have to do that, but as I've said, from what I've seen so far, the build out rule roll out is a cluster f.


Thanks.  It would indeed be good practice, although, to be fair, the way games are scheduled on most fields doesn't give referees much time to discuss anything with parents before the game starts even if they are inclined to do so.  This is especially true if they are refereeing multiple games on the same field, have to get the next game started quickly to avoid running up against the end of the field permit, and that break between games is the only time they have to fill out the match report, get it signed by the coaches/TAs and return their cards, and get something to drink and a bite to eat on a hot day.  This is especially true in youngers games when they don't have ARs to help with check-ins.


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## espola (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> DYS is the keeper and hadn't been given the instruction (coach wasn't sure when we arrived what ref would be doing...he'd had the meeting like everyone else, but as I said, the instructions have been confusing).  Given that the tournaments were all called a variety of ways and we've gotten different stories from different refs, I've made it my practice (after one incident over the summer where he had gotten conflicting info from the coach, tournament organizers, and the ref and DYS was reduced to tears by teammates/sidelines/refs/coaches yelling conflicting instructions) to make sure he gets the official deal from the ref on the build out in before go.  Given we were 3 minutes away from start, and we still didn't know what he was suppose to do, I asked politely "would you mind ref giving them a quick run down of how you'll call the build out rule".  As MWN pointed out, even though I think he called it wrong (and I didn't call him on it til after the game), the ref was kind enough to do it and even if the game was called wrong, because everyone knew in advance what was happening, it avoided an otherwise bad situation.  MWN has some real excellent advice there.  They shouldn't have to do that, but as I've said, from what I've seen so far, the build out rule roll out is a cluster f.


Hey, that's one of my old referee jokes - if you are going to call the game by your own rules, tell the players about it beforehand.


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## MWN (Sep 12, 2017)

@Grace T. 
Presidio has posted clear guidance: http://www.presidiosoccer.com/documents/7v7-standards-of-play.pdf

SCSDL has expressly referred to the Cal South PDIs and points to this document:
http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Resources/PDIFebruary2017.pdf?rev=B87B

The Cal South PDI and 7v7 document is here: http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/7v7.pdf

The PDI's are relatively clear that Goal Kicks are actual goal kicks (not rolling or throwing) and the "ball is put into play" when it leaves the penalty area.  Keeper's cannot punt or drop kick.  The ball is put into play when the keeper releases the ball, which 90% of the time also coincides with the ball leaving the penalty box because the GK has moved to the edge of the penalty box.

Last year's allowances are dead.  The spirit of the rule is to encourage playing out of the back, as opposed to kicking the stuffing out of the ball and creating a 50/50 chance.

All of that said, expect some changes or clarifications.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

Dargle said:


> Thanks.  It would indeed be good practice, although, to be fair, the way games are scheduled on most fields doesn't give referees much time to discuss anything with parents before the game starts even if they are inclined to do so.  This is especially true if they are refereeing multiple games on the same field, have to get the next game started quickly to avoid running up against the end of the field permit, and that break between games is the only time they have to fill out the match report, get it signed by the coaches/TAs and return their cards, and get something to drink and a bite to eat on a hot day.  This is especially true in youngers games when they don't have ARs to help with check-ins.


I agree, which is another reason why the roll out of the build up line rule has been so bad.  It shouldn't be on the refs to do that, but the refs/players/coaches are not on the same page yet. The refs and the printed rules are also not the same page yet.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> @Grace T.
> Presidio has posted clear guidance: http://www.presidiosoccer.com/documents/7v7-standards-of-play.pdf
> 
> SCSDL has expressly referred to the Cal South PDIs and points to this document:
> ...



There are 3 ambiguities in the Cal South document.  First it implies the goalkeeper must wait for the build up line to set: "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line, the goalkeeper can pass, throw or roll the ball into play".  That contradicts the info some refs have gotten and how some refs are calling it.

Second, it's unclear if the keeper can put it down and kick it for a long ball so long as it's not drop kicked.  Maybe "pass" is supposed to equal "kick" but some refs aren't reading it that way.

Third, because of the first ambiguity that I pointed out, it's unclear from the rule if the goalkeeper releases early what players on the unfair side of the build out line can do.  One ref told a friend the opposing team can't oppose the ball until he gets over the build out line.

I agree the goalkicks should be goalkicks.  I don't know where that ref got it from.  The presidio doc is clearer...also addresses the issue of delay.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> There are 3 ambiguities in the Cal South document.  First it implies the goalkeeper must wait for the build up line to set: "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line, the goalkeeper can pass, throw or roll the ball into play".  That contradicts the info some refs have gotten and how some refs are calling it.
> 
> Second, it's unclear if the keeper can put it down and kick it for a long ball so long as it's not drop kicked.  Maybe "pass" is supposed to equal "kick" but some refs aren't reading it that way.
> 
> ...


oh.  p.s. the other issue which is going to come up is the 6 second rule.  Some of the docs say it shouldn't start until the opponents are behind the line.  I actually saw a coach (not our game) for a girls game ask the ref for a 6 second violation from the time the GK had the ball (not from the time the line was set).  Don't expect this to come up too often (since its majorly douchey when it comes to 7/8/9 year olds), though I do expect and have already seen some coaches slowing down the reset to the build up line, which if the goalkeeper can't release early, will cause problems.


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## MWN (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> There are 3 ambiguities in the Cal South document.  First it implies the goalkeeper must wait for the build up line to set: "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line, the goalkeeper can pass, throw or roll the ball into play".  That contradicts the info some refs have gotten and how some refs are calling it.
> 
> Second, it's unclear if the keeper can put it down and kick it for a long ball so long as it's not drop kicked.  Maybe "pass" is supposed to equal "kick" but some refs aren't reading it that way.
> 
> ...


@Grace T. I agree the Presidio document is clearer and addresses some of the "ambiguities" which really are not ambiguities if one is familiar with the Laws of the Game.  Remember, rules for 7v7 are normal FIFA Laws of the Game, except as modified according the 7v7 documents.  Thus, Law 12 remains and a player may be cautioned for "delaying a restart" or "fails to respect the required distance on a direct, goal or corner kick."  Since getting behind the build out line is mandated, players failing to make a good faith effort to get beyond the BOL are playing in a manner in violation of the modified rules/Law and are either "delaying" "failing to respect the required distance" or engaged in "unsporting behavior" by showing a "lack of respect for the game."  In short, the Referee is to apply the modified rules in a manner that enforces the spirit of the rules/Laws.

The Laws give the Referee the tools to enforce the BOL under your circumstances.

First, a team can chose to play when an opponent is failing to respect the required distance.  This is already permitted under the laws and guidance and the infraction is ignored.  Thus, a 7v7 GK can put the ball back into play quickly before the opponents are behind the BOL.  By doing so they take the risk that the opponent may intercept it.

Second, a keeper can pass the ball to a teammate on the otherside of the pitch.  Note, you cannot be offside on a goal kick, corner kick or throw-in, but can be offside on all other passes/play.  So, as long as the keeper does not punt or drop kick the ball, everything else is fair game.

Third, I believe I answered that above, but it depends on the conduct of the player(s) failing to get back behind the BOL, are they making a good faith effort or are they playing a game in violation of the spirit of the rules.  I verbally warn them to make a good faith effort to get back behind the BOL, so as not to delay or be guilty of unsporting behavior.  I then watch what action takes place and if I see the infraction had effect on the play, I whistle it dead and if not ... play on.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2017)

watfly said:


> Parents aren't required to know the rules.  They shouldn't abuse the refs whether they know the rules or not.  I like to know the rules because it makes the game more relevant and I can help my kid understand the rules and how they apply to him.


Soccer and its fans are really unique among main stream sports. I have watched thousands of games among football, baseball, basketball, and golf, from amateur to the pros, with family, friends, and bar-mates. Fans of all those sports are often ignorant of the obscure rules and their nuances, be it the tuck rule,  infield fly rule, traveling, or loose impediments; and they understand this when there is a call made. But when such calls come up, most fans of those sports say "hey what did they call there?" Most fans acknowledge that the rules are complicated, and that they don't have  a great knowledge of all of them.

Not in soccer. Soccer fan thinks he knows all the rules. Soccer fan thinks that if a call goes against his kid's team, the referee blew the call. Soccer fan (and too many coaches) ignorantly yell at the referee, mis-quoting the LOTG. Soccer fans refuse to follow Mark Twain's advice:

*“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.”*


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> First, a team can chose to play when an opponent is failing to respect the required distance.  This is already permitted under the laws and guidance and the infraction is ignored.  Thus, a 7v7 GK can put the ball back into play quickly before the opponents are behind the BOL.  By doing so they take the risk that the opponent may intercept it.
> 
> .




To make the opposite argument as devil's advocate, that's only if the new rule isn't intended to supersede the existing laws.  The wording is clear: it says "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line" therefore the goalkeeper does not have any power to release before the opposing team is behind the build out line.  After all, the new rule is there not just to protect the goalkeeper's team, but also the opposing team, so they can properly learn to oppose a build out, and the goalkeeper releasing early would disregard the entire intent of the system we've set up.  If goalkeepers are going to release early willy nilly, why bother having the change at all? Additionally, under the rules of construction, the modified rules are modification to rule 1-- therefore because it becomes first, the constructs of rule interpretation say all other rules must be interpreted to, and subject to this first rule, which takes precedence.  Finally, if CalSouth had intended to allow goalkeepers to release early, they would have said the goalkeeper can release early, and also expressly address what opponents on the unfair side of the line could do.  They could have at least said this rule (adopted later in time than the existing rules and thus constituting an amendment) "is not intended to affect any other rule" but they didn't-- therefore any rules which materially conflict with the new one are superseded by the new one.

Not that I agree with it...but that's the argument given how they've phrased it. ;)


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## Eagle33 (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> To make the opposite argument as devil's advocate, that's only if the new rule isn't intended to supersede the existing laws.  The wording is clear: it says "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line" therefore the goalkeeper does not have any power to release before the opposing team is behind the build out line.  After all, the new rule is there not just to protect the goalkeeper's team, but also the opposing team, so they can properly learn to oppose a build out, and the goalkeeper releasing early would disregard the entire intent of the system we've set up.  If goalkeepers are going to release early willy nilly, why bother having the change at all? Additionally, under the rules of construction, the modified rules are modification to rule 1-- therefore because it becomes first, the constructs of rule interpretation say all other rules must be interpreted to, and subject to this first rule, which takes precedence.  Finally, if CalSouth had intended to allow goalkeepers to release early, they would have said the goalkeeper can release early, and also expressly address what opponents on the unfair side of the line could do.  They could have at least said this rule (adopted later in time than the existing rules and thus constituting an amendment) "is not intended to affect any other rule" but they didn't-- therefore any rules which materially conflict with the new one are superseded by the new one.
> 
> Not that I agree with it...but that's the argument given how they've phrased it. ;)


My take on this - BOL is very similar to a free kick. Goalkeeper can release the ball quickly or ask for BOL to be enforced. Just like a team can take a free kick quickly or ask for required distance to be enforced. Anything that disrupts the flow of the game is not a good thing. I strongly believe that all this modified rules for BOL were NOT intended to take ability to release the ball quickly away from goalkeepers.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> My take on this - BOL is very similar to a free kick. Goalkeeper can release the ball quickly or ask for BOL to be enforced. Just like a team can take a free kick quickly or ask for required distance to be enforced. Anything that disrupts the flow of the game is not a good thing. I strongly believe that all this modified rules for BOL were NOT intended to take ability to release the ball quickly away from goalkeepers.


I agree and that's how Presidio is interpreting it.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> To make the opposite argument as devil's advocate, that's only if the new rule isn't intended to supersede the existing laws.  The wording is clear: it says "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line" therefore the goalkeeper does not have any power to release before the opposing team is behind the build out line.  After all, the new rule is there not just to protect the goalkeeper's team, but also the opposing team, so they can properly learn to oppose a build out, and the goalkeeper releasing early would disregard the entire intent of the system we've set up.  If goalkeepers are going to release early willy nilly, why bother having the change at all? Additionally, under the rules of construction, the modified rules are modification to rule 1-- therefore because it becomes first, the constructs of rule interpretation say all other rules must be interpreted to, and subject to this first rule, which takes precedence.  Finally, if CalSouth had intended to allow goalkeepers to release early, they would have said the goalkeeper can release early, and also expressly address what opponents on the unfair side of the line could do.  They could have at least said this rule (adopted later in time than the existing rules and thus constituting an amendment) "is not intended to affect any other rule" but they didn't-- therefore any rules which materially conflict with the new one are superseded by the new one.
> 
> Not that I agree with it...but that's the argument given how they've phrased it. ;)


I don't know how traditional legal rules of statutory interpretation apply here, but you highlight an important point. Too many people are too would up about certainty, being exactly right and all the rest. Those with backgrounds in soccer, including referees realize that *none of this minutia matters.*  6 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever, so long as they are not delaying to stall. We're not in court. We don't need devil's advocates, Socrates, or any of that. 

Presidio has interpreted it to mean that they can kick early if they choose as the purpose of the rule is to protect building out by the defense. What's next, getting all hot an bothered because the field is 46 yards wide instead of 45? Stop the game bacause a corner flag won't stay up?  Stop the madness people, its all irrelevant and will be worked out over time.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I don't know how traditional legal rules of statutory interpretation apply here, but you highlight an important point. Too many people are too would up about certainty, being exactly right and all the rest. Those with backgrounds in soccer, including referees realize that *none of this minutia matters.*  6 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever, so long as they are not delaying to stall. We're not in court. We don't need devil's advocates, Socrates, or any of that.
> 
> Presidio has interpreted it to mean that they can kick early if they choose as the purpose of the rule is to protect building out by the defense. What's next, getting all hot an bothered because the field is 46 yards wide instead of 45? Stop the game bacause a corner flag won't stay up?  Stop the madness people, its all irrelevant and will be worked out over time.



I thought the entire thing was it was supposed to be fun for the kids?  None of the minutia matter SO LONG AS THERE'S CONSISTENCY.  Confusing the kids, and making them worried about what's going to happen when they get to the field any particular day, is not fun for the kids, particularly the goalkeeper, who is sitting in bed the night before worrying about it.  Throwing a goalkeeper off by forcing him to retake a goalkick except rolling it (and then throwing him off for the fast break that comes) is not fun for the player.  Having the coach have to yell new instructions to the goalkeeper because the goalkeeper is now confused is not fun for the goalkeeper (one coach even left an empty net for a few seconds to chat with the keeper).  Taking away a goal because the goalkeeper initiated a fast break and didn't wait for the build up line to set is not fun for the team.  Confusing the parents, who are scratching their heads about "what's this ref doing", and bringing their frustration to the field is not helping kids enjoy the game.  Having the coaches argue with each other and the ref about how to call the new rule is not fun for the kids.  The leagues have a responsibility to make sure the refs and coaches are on the same page.  Beyond that, you can have the goalkeeper bunnyhop before taking a goalkick for all I care.

Separate and apart from this is whether the new buildup rules are actually teaching teams to actually build up (I'd argue so far no...less backpassing, more booting, primarily due to the new offside rule).


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## MWN (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> To make the opposite argument as devil's advocate, that's only if the new rule isn't intended to supersede the existing laws.  The wording is clear: it says "Once the opposing team is behind the build out line" therefore the goalkeeper does not have any power to release before the opposing team is behind the build out line.  After all, the new rule is there not just to protect the goalkeeper's team, but also the opposing team, so they can properly learn to oppose a build out, and the goalkeeper releasing early would disregard the entire intent of the system we've set up.  If goalkeepers are going to release early willy nilly, why bother having the change at all? Additionally, under the rules of construction, the modified rules are modification to rule 1-- therefore because it becomes first, the constructs of rule interpretation say all other rules must be interpreted to, and subject to this first rule, which takes precedence.  Finally, if CalSouth had intended to allow goalkeepers to release early, they would have said the goalkeeper can release early, and also expressly address what opponents on the unfair side of the line could do.  They could have at least said this rule (adopted later in time than the existing rules and thus constituting an amendment) "is not intended to affect any other rule" but they didn't-- therefore any rules which materially conflict with the new one are superseded by the new one.
> 
> Not that I agree with it...but that's the argument given how they've phrased it. ;)


@Grace T:

I.​
The plain text of the new rule states that these are "modifications" to the existing laws and not intended to be new laws (i.e. superseding laws).  These modifications do not "preempt" existing Laws (of the Game) under either express preemption or implied / field preemption.  It cannot be reasonably argued that the modification "occupy the field" as the petitioner alludes (although not using that term) because the modifications expressly stated they are intended to modify the existing Laws.  Moreover, because the organizations adopting these modifications are subordinate entities to FIFA, they lack the authority as subordinates under the Supremacy Clause.  The Laws of the Game supersedes all current modifications and prior iterations.  While the court finds that the Laws of the Game also expressly permit certain modifications to the Laws as discussed in section II, the argument that these modifications supersede the Laws of the Game does not "...hold water." (People v. Gambini (1992) and People v. Rothenstein (1992) [citations omitted ... watch the movie]

II.​
We note that petitioner has not alleged that these modifications exceed scope of allowed modifications.  In particular, the IFAB expressly states in relevant part:

Consequently, the 131st AGM of The IFAB held in London on 3rd March 2017 unanimously agreed that national FAs (and confederations and FIFA) should now have the option, if they wish to use it, to modify all or some of the following organisational areas of the Laws of the Game for football for which they are responsible:

*FOR YOUTH, VETERANS, DISABILITY AND GRASSROOTS FOOTBALL:*

size of the field of play
size, weight and material of the ball
width between the goalposts and height of the crossbar from the ground
duration of the two (equal) halves of the game (and two equal halves of extra time)
the use of return substitutes
the use of temporary dismissals (sin bins) for some/all cautions (YCs)
We further note that Law 11 (Offside) does not expressly permit modifications.  Whether, the modifications are permitted under the FIFA Laws of the Game and what authority the subordinate organizations rely on to adopt modifications to the Laws of the game that on the surface appear to exceed the scope of that authority has not been brought before this court, therefore, we decline to offer an opinion.

Ruling: Motion Denied.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> @Grace T:
> 
> I.​
> The plain text of the new rule states that these are "modifications" to the existing laws and not intended to be new laws (i.e. superseding laws).  These modifications do not "preempt" existing Laws (of the Game) under either express preemption or implied / field preemption.  It cannot be reasonably argued that the modification "occupy the field" as the petitioner alludes (although not using that term) because the modifications expressly stated they are intended to modify the existing Laws.  Moreover, because the organizations adopting these modifications are subordinate entities to FIFA, they lack the authority as subordinates under the Supremacy Clause.  The Laws of the Game supersedes all current modifications and prior iterations.  While the court finds that the Laws of the Game also expressly permit certain modifications to the Laws as discussed in section II, the argument that these modifications supersede the Laws of the Game does not "...hold water." (People v. Gambini (1992) and People v. Rothenstein (1992) [citations omitted ... watch the movie]
> ...


I love this SOOO much.    Great point about the offside rule.  But you've also illustrated why parents get frustrated with all this...the argument does sound like a law decision and isn't very clear to the lay person.

p.s. please make sure all CalSouth refs are apprised of your ruling and appropriate disciplinary contempt proceedings are put in place for those violating your order.


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Soccer and its fans are really unique among main stream sports. I have watched thousands of games among football, baseball, basketball, and golf, from amateur to the pros, with family, friends, and bar-mates. Fans of all those sports are often ignorant of the obscure rules and their nuances, be it the tuck rule,  infield fly rule, traveling, or loose impediments; and they understand this when there is a call made. But when such calls come up, most fans of those sports say "hey what did they call there?" Most fans acknowledge that the rules are complicated, and that they don't have  a great knowledge of all of them.
> 
> Not in soccer. Soccer fan thinks he knows all the rules. Soccer fan thinks that if a call goes against his kid's team, the referee blew the call. Soccer fan (and too many coaches) ignorantly yell at the referee, mis-quoting the LOTG. Soccer fans refuse to follow Mark Twain's advice:
> 
> *“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.”*


Come on, you never have berated a golf official?

I'll admit I'm a little confused, your premise is that soccer fans would be better if they didn't know the rules.  Yet MWN is claiming that I have an ethical duty to know the rules and I'm vile for suggesting otherwise.  Setting aside the fact that we all agree that parents shouldn't yell at refs, which would be better for parents, to know the rules? or not know the rules? or only know rules up to a certain point...which would be?

Yes, soccer is different.  In no other sport (non-judging sport) is a single person by design given such wide discretion to officiate, control and set the tone of the game where a single score carries so much weight.  I think why possibly American fans get so frustated with soccer refs is they are expecting consistency in calls as they see in other sports.  However, they don't understand there is no mechanism for consistency in soccer, as this thread clearly illustrates, and is laid out in the LOTG (refer to MWM's post).  This is  due to the overriding concept of Spirit of the Game, which is a cool thing about soccer but is a double-edged sword.  Heck this thread illustrates that its not even clear what the rules are and that there is a body of laws, or at least interpretations, outside of what is published (granted that the BOL is anomaly, but look at opinions from refs about what constitutes a handball).

I'll say it again, the issue is you shouldn't abuse refs, period.  Whether the parent doing the abusing knows the laws, or not, is irrelevant, other than its clear those who don't know the laws are far more offensive to refs.


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## Dargle (Sep 12, 2017)

For those who think these uncertainties only exist because our governing bodies' statements are ambiguous or refs are not experienced enough, I'll note that academic study found that a change to the offside rule produced much variation in referee interpretation and application in the EPL:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14660970.2012.677223

*The unsettled law: disputes and negotiations on the meanings of the offside law of Football Association in the English Premier League, 2003–2009*

*  Soccer & Society  *
* Volume 13, 2012 - Issue 4 *

Abstract
This essay follows the controversies surrounding the disputes and negotiations over the meaning of the ‘new’ offside law, as well as the practical resolutions carried out on the pitch by referees, assistant referees, managers and the players themselves. It defends the argument that the meaning of the offside rule cannot be decided beforehand, mainly regarding its wordings since 2003, but instead at the very time in which the game is being played.


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## El Clasico (Sep 12, 2017)

@MWN & @Grace T, enough with the foreplay!!
Get a room already...


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## MWN (Sep 12, 2017)

watfly said:


> ... Yet MWN is claiming that I have an ethical duty to know the rules and I'm vile for suggesting otherwise.


Not ethical, but contractual duty.  Vile is too negative (Red card level), ... lazy or careless would be better.

Once you appreciate that the discretion of the referee with regard to certain Laws (fouls/misconduct) is a fundamental part of the game then you stop getting all wound up.  Other Laws (offside) are black and white and don't permit discretion (unless in the determination of whether the offside player was engaged in the play).  You are correct in that soccer is one of the few sports that asks referees to ascertain the state of mind of the player (was this handling of the ball deliberate on the part of the player?).  Different referees give greater weight to the various factors based on a whole host of factors.

The rules of soccer are intended encourage continuous play and encourage Referees to ignore minor infractions or things that don't give one team an unfair advantage ... "play on" "advantage."  So, yes, soccer is unique in that Referee's are supposed to swallow their whistle when they see a foul or a borderline foul if it doesn't have a negative impact on the team that was fouled.


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> I hope you will never utter this vile phrase again "Parents aren't required to know the rules.





MWN said:


> Vile is too negative (Red card level)


Vile was your word not mine.  I support referee discretion and always have and have never stated otherwise. http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/entering-and-leaving-the-field.3744/page-4#post-100525

What winds me up are referees that show up unprepared physically and mentally to perform their paid duties, and refs that blame shift by claiming there is some sort of equivalency between a refs responsibility and parents responsibility to know the LOTG.  Thanks for the debate.


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2017)

watfly said:


> Vile was your word not mine.  I support referee discretion and always have and have never stated otherwise. http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/entering-and-leaving-the-field.3744/page-4#post-100525
> 
> What winds me up are referees that show up unprepared physically and mentally to perform their paid duties, and refs that blame shift by claiming there is some sort of equivalency between a refs responsibility and parents responsibility to know the LOTG.  Thanks for the debate.


I don't give a crap if the parents know the LOTG.  I only care that the players and coaches have a basic understanding.  If little Susie's grandmother comes to watch the game, she more than likely will not know the LOTG and just wants to see Susie kick the ball.

My job as a referee is to be the expert on the LOTG and how to interpret and apply them.  Most players and coaches only have a rudimentary understanding of the LOTG.  The last thing any referee wants is a player that is a LOTG expert.  My daughter is a college player and referee(since she was 12y/o) who knows the LOTG well enough to be on a Surf Cup BU18 and a BU17 finals crew.  She talks/questions referees in "referee language" and knows what refs are looking at, their positioning, and how far to push the LOTG without getting called for a foul.  I have seen her foul opponents in a way that the referee does not see or thinks the player went down on their own.  I have seen her talk a referee out of giving a card to one of her teammates on two occasions.  I have also seen her commit Yellow card offenses, which I was not happy about, off the ball that the CR and ARs had no clue what happened.  Her comments on those offenses was that the referee was not calling the fouls and keeping her teammates safe so she had to be the enforcer.

So, just be a parent and cheer for your kid.  Let the referees, coaches and players do their jobs.  We know the referee, coach, and player are going to make mistakes, so just accept it and be glad you get to watch your kid.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2017)

watfly said:


> Come on, you never have berated a golf official?
> 
> I'll admit I'm a little confused, your premise is that soccer fans would be better if they didn't know the rules.  Yet MWN is claiming that I have an ethical duty to know the rules and I'm vile for suggesting otherwise.  Setting aside the fact that we all agree that parents shouldn't yell at refs, which would be better for parents, to know the rules? or not know the rules? or only know rules up to a certain point...which would be?
> 
> ...


No, I never said soccer fans would be better if they didn't know the rules. My premise is that NO FANS really know the rules in depth of ANY sport, but only soccer fans think they do, and open their mouths so consistently challenging officials, and prove their ignorance. A broad brush? Yes, but its my position. 

Many sports have single, double or three officials: volleyball, golf, basketball, hockey, and baseball (4), making judgment calls by the second. Fans of those sports accept that discretion, but fans of soccer complain that the discretion is inconsistent or arbitrary. 

It really boils down to ignorance and experience. People with a long history of soccer experience and knowledge understand and accept that there is discretion, even if they don't agree with a particular call. They understand the rules, without having to parse and analyze them. 

Parents of 7-8-9 year olds that never played soccer competitively, or studied the laws as an official, are emotional and want to bicker over things that are meaningless and above their heads. I don't see this with inexperienced parents of kids in flag football, gymnastics, and other youth sports.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> I thought the entire thing was it was supposed to be fun for the kids?  None of the minutia matter SO LONG AS THERE'S CONSISTENCY.  Confusing the kids, and making them worried about what's going to happen when they get to the field any particular day, is not fun for the kids, particularly the goalkeeper, who is sitting in bed the night before worrying about it.  Throwing a goalkeeper off by forcing him to retake a goalkick except rolling it (and then throwing him off for the fast break that comes) is not fun for the player.  Having the coach have to yell new instructions to the goalkeeper because the goalkeeper is now confused is not fun for the goalkeeper (one coach even left an empty net for a few seconds to chat with the keeper).  Taking away a goal because the goalkeeper initiated a fast break and didn't wait for the build up line to set is not fun for the team.  Confusing the parents, who are scratching their heads about "what's this ref doing", and bringing their frustration to the field is not helping kids enjoy the game.  Having the coaches argue with each other and the ref about how to call the new rule is not fun for the kids.  The leagues have a responsibility to make sure the refs and coaches are on the same page.  Beyond that, you can have the goalkeeper bunnyhop before taking a goalkick for all I care.
> 
> Separate and apart from this is whether the new buildup rules are actually teaching teams to actually build up (I'd argue so far no...less backpassing, more booting, primarily due to the new offside rule).


Counselor: Kids are not worried about what's going to happen when they get to the field any particular day unless they are berated by their helicopter parents about it. No kid that does not have a tiger parent in their face, complaining about the rules and what happened the game before and how bad the referees are, sits in bed the night before worrying about it.

Sounds like a miserable experience for your kid. Leave it alone. Look in the mirror. Be positive. Don't analyze the game with your little tiny kid. Soccer is not a courtroom. Leave your profession at the office. You are killing your kid's enjoyment of the game, not the referees.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> My daughter is a college player and referee(since she was 12y/o) who knows the LOTG well enough to be on a Surf Cup BU18 and a BU17 finals crew.  She talks/questions referees in "referee language" and knows what refs are looking at, their positioning, and how far to push the LOTG without getting called for a foul.  I have seen her foul opponents in a way that the referee does not see or thinks the player went down on their own.  .


You've just pointed out as well that there's a split among refs/players/coaches/parents of players/even casual fans of professional soccer teams.  There is a camp that believes players should be free to push the LOTG as far as possible without breaking them...for example, rough contact or an elbow here and there is fine so long as its done in such a way that either the ref sees or the particular ref doesn't take as far as a calling it if seen...they also believe in efficient breaches of the LOTG (e.g. that deliberate handball is o.k. if it might otherwise take a certain goal down to an uncertain pk and saves the game or maybe the ref doesn't see it)...call it the Ibrahimovic school of soccer.  Winning is the organizing principle.  

There is also a camp that believes the spirit of the law is what matters and that players shouldn't be trying to get away with things whether or not the ref sees them.  They believe that what the spirit of the game is more important, and integrity is the organizing principle.

Now that's an oversimplication.  It's actually more of a spectrum.  Few people believe that a team should just roll over and stick to the absolute letter of the LOTG...such a team wouldn't last long.  Few people believe that it's a duty for a player to do anything what it takes to win even if other players get hurt, so long at it's not called (well...maybe Ibrahimovic).  But there is this tension in soccer, and it's not just in youth, and not just in the U.S., but it's probably one of the reasons why soccer has difficulty in the U.S.


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## Grace T. (Sep 12, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Counselor: Kids are not worried about what's going to happen when they get to the field any particular day unless they are berated by their helicopter parents about it. No kid that does not have a tiger parent in their face, complaining about the rules and what happened the game before and how bad the referees are, sits in bed the night before worrying about it.
> 
> Sounds like a miserable experience for your kid. Leave it alone. Look in the mirror. Be positive. Don't analyze the game with your little tiny kid. Soccer is not a courtroom. Leave your profession at the office. You are killing your kid's enjoyment of the game, not the referees.



I've written before I rather my kid not play goalie...I rather my kid not play club soccer and go back to AYSO.  Soccer wasn't my idea and I'm hoping he goes on the academic rather than the soccer track into college.  And I've offered plenty of times to not help him anymore or to let him step down...no dice.  Am I perfect?   No.  Could I stand to back off every once in a while?  Absolutely.  But there's a lot of kid's killing the enjoyment of the game going around....whether parents, refs who don't adequately prepare or aren't fit to do the game, people who won't step up to do the difficult job of reffing, coaches who are more into it for the cash than the kids, leagues that are run for the businesses and not for the kids.  We do a lot of AYSO bashing around here, but sometimes I wonder: maybe we should look at some of their principles and then ask what are we doing wrong?


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I don't give a crap if the parents know the LOTG.  I only care that the players and coaches have a basic understanding.  If little Susie's grandmother comes to watch the game, she more than likely will not know the LOTG and just wants to see Susie kick the ball.
> 
> My job as a referee is to be the expert on the LOTG and how to interpret and apply them.  Most players and coaches only have a rudimentary understanding of the LOTG.  The last thing any referee wants is a player that is a LOTG expert.  My daughter is a college player and referee(since she was 12y/o) who knows the LOTG well enough to be on a Surf Cup BU18 and a BU17 finals crew.  She talks/questions referees in "referee language" and knows what refs are looking at, their positioning, and how far to push the LOTG without getting called for a foul.  I have seen her foul opponents in a way that the referee does not see or thinks the player went down on their own.  I have seen her talk a referee out of giving a card to one of her teammates on two occasions.  I have also seen her commit Yellow card offenses, which I was not happy about, off the ball that the CR and ARs had no clue what happened.  Her comments on those offenses was that the referee was not calling the fouls and keeping her teammates safe so she had to be the enforcer.
> 
> So, just be a parent and cheer for your kid.  Let the referees, coaches and players do their jobs.  We know the referee, coach, and player are going to make mistakes, so just accept it and be glad you get to watch your kid.


Voice of reason, well said.


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