# SAN DIEGO GIRLS CIF PLAYOFFS



## Kicknit22 (Feb 16, 2017)

So, in the San Diego CIF Section, Division 1 consists of 20 teams.  Top 8 finishers in the power rankings compete for OPEN Division, while the other 12 compete for Division 1 championship.  So basically any of the bottom 12 could theoretically go 0-20-0 for the season and still make playoffs.  This system seems a little janky to me. Any thoughts or insight from anyone?


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## TheyBothPlay (Feb 17, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> So, in the San Diego CIF Section, Division 1 consists of 20 teams.  Top 8 finishers in the power rankings compete for OPEN Division, while the other 12 compete for Division 1 championship.  So basically any of the bottom 12 could theoretically go 0-20-0 for the season and still make playoffs.  This system seems a little janky to me. Any thoughts or insight from anyone?


I'm kind of interested to hear how exactly this new system works.  But as long as the power rankings aren't completely janky (thanks for the new vocab), that actually seems like it could potentially result in more accurate seedings/match ups than going strictly off of league records or some other criteria that looks at record independent of strength of schedule/opponents and how a team does against top ranked teams.  Aren't leagues mostly set up based on proximity of schools/school districts as opposed to strength of teams?  How did this work previously?


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## espola (Feb 17, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> So, in the San Diego CIF Section, Division 1 consists of 20 teams.  Top 8 finishers in the power rankings compete for OPEN Division, while the other 12 compete for Division 1 championship.  So basically any of the bottom 12 could theoretically go 0-20-0 for the season and still make playoffs.  This system seems a little janky to me. Any thoughts or insight from anyone?


Teams get into that 20-team mixed division through performance over 5 years, weighted so the most recent years  count more.  The 20th place team could conceivably lose every game, but they earned their way into that division - at least until next year.

The previous method set Divisions entirely by enrollment.  There were really bad matchups every year with that system.  Some big schools just couldn't put together a good team in some sports and were always at the bottom, or sat there for many years.

An ideal system would find the best 8 teams for the Open playoffs no matter what division they were placed in a the beginning of the year, but that would inevitably lead to rivalry politics and bullying.  Or so I have been told.


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## Kicknit22 (Feb 19, 2017)

espola said:


> Teams get into that 20-team mixed division through performance over 5 years, weighted so the most recent years  count more.  The 20th place team could conceivably lose every game, but they earned their way into that division - at least until next year.
> 
> The previous method set Divisions entirely by enrollment.  There were really bad matchups every year with that system.  Some big schools just couldn't put together a good team in some sports and were always at the bottom, or sat there for many years.
> 
> An ideal system would find the best 8 teams for the Open playoffs no matter what division they were placed in a the beginning of the year, but that would inevitably lead to rivalry politics and bullying.  Or so I have been told.


Can't help but wonder if enrollment still plays a factor.  For instance, Coronado the last two seasons did not win more than 6 or 7 games out of 20+.  Yet, they have remained in Div. 1. Same with a couple others.  Just curious is all.


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## espola (Feb 19, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> Can't help but wonder if enrollment still plays a factor.  For instance, Coronado the last two seasons did not win more than 6 or 7 games out of 20+.  Yet, they have remained in Div. 1. Same with a couple others.  Just curious is all.


Enrollment has a strong linkage with competitiveness - bigger schools have more players to choose from and can afford better coaches and facilities.  Coronado is an odd counterexample, since they are actually one of the smaller schools in Div 1.  I think they were in D3 before the new system was inaugurated and it took a couple of years to work their way into Div 1/Open.


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## f1nfutbol fan (Feb 23, 2017)

I saw most of the 2nd half of san marcos vs carlsbad.

san marcos over carlsbad 2-1.

Ehh, defensively, all the girls closed down quickly, putting a lot of pressure on either side, which resulted in a lot of kick ball & give-aways from I saw.

When there was some decent passing & movement, I think the center ref was shocked, as he failed to blow his whistle when the defenders were pulling arms & jerseys to disrupt play.

maybe he liked the taste of his whistle in his mouth....

I dont understand...that type of play shouldn't tolerated at any level. 

I get / enjoy good shoulder to shoulder action & there was plenty of that, but 2 arm shoves from behind & 1 arm drags go uncalled....

We will see if San Marcos can elevate their game vs Torrey Pines. Should be a good game.


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## Surfref (Feb 23, 2017)

f1nfutbol fan said:


> I saw most of the 2nd half of san marcos vs carlsbad.
> 
> san marcos over carlsbad 2-1.
> 
> ...


You sound like one of the parents from the U10 forum with your one comment, "I get / enjoy good shoulder to shoulder action & there was plenty of that, but 2 arm shoves from behind & 1 arm drags go uncalled....". With these HS open division games you are getting top quality referees that are USSF state and national level and normally work adult, college, DA and ECNL games when not doing HS games.  Maybe the refereee was just letting them play and only calling the fouls that really needed to be called.


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## f1nfutbol fan (Feb 23, 2017)

Since i dont have video of said arm pulling, etc., i respect your comment, NP.

I fully understand letting them play, but i've witnessed less egregious fouls called while watching local spanish boys play vs what was observed lastnight.


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## f1nfutbol fan (Feb 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> You sound like one of the parents from the U10 forum


Yep, I was the 1 with the cowbell


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## Kicknit22 (Feb 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> You sound like one of the parents from the U10 forum with your one comment, "I get / enjoy good shoulder to shoulder action & there was plenty of that, but 2 arm shoves from behind & 1 arm drags go uncalled....". With these HS open division games you are getting top quality referees that are USSF state and national level and normally work adult, college, DA and ECNL games when not doing HS games.  Maybe the refereee was just letting them play and only calling the fouls that really needed to be called.


What a lame response.  The stigma of HS soccer being poor play, is only made worse by the poor level of the officiating.  Taking such a subjective approach as to "only make the calls that need to be called", speaks volumes.  As far as I am concerned, the extremely poor level of officiating just contributes to the number of injuries and UGLY soccer we often see.  A foul is a foul.  Rules and laws of the game are written for a reason. The more kids learn to play within the rules of the game, the better the game.  Pathetic, Surfref!  I also don't believe for a second that these refs are the level you attest to.  No way.  I know it's a thankless job, but earn your thanks by not letting kids slam into one another or wearing each other like backpacks, without penalty!  I, for one, am sick of it.


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## LadiesMan217 (Feb 23, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> What a lame response.  The stigma of HS soccer being poor play, is only made worse by the poor level of the officiating.  Taking such a subjective approach as to "only make the calls that need to be called", speaks volumes.  As far as I am concerned, the extremely poor level of officiating just contributes to the number of injuries and UGLY soccer we often see.  A foul is a foul.  Rules and laws of the game are written for a reason. The more kids learn to play within the rules of the game, the better the game.  Pathetic, Surfref!  I also don't believe for a second that these refs are the level you attest to.  No way.  I know it's a thankless job, but earn your thanks by not letting kids slam into one another or wearing each other like backpacks, without penalty!  I, for one, am sick of it.


Ohhhhhh.... My thoughts in someone else's brain.


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## Kicknit22 (Feb 23, 2017)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Ohhhhhh.... My thoughts in someone else's brain.


Lol! I realize this topic is hijacking this thread, but I couldn't help myself.


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## Surfref (Feb 23, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> What a lame response.  The stigma of HS soccer being poor play, is only made worse by the poor level of the officiating.  Taking such a subjective approach as to "only make the calls that need to be called", speaks volumes.  As far as I am concerned, the extremely poor level of officiating just contributes to the number of injuries and UGLY soccer we often see.  A foul is a foul.  Rules and laws of the game are written for a reason. The more kids learn to play within the rules of the game, the better the game.  Pathetic, Surfref!  I also don't believe for a second that these refs are the level you attest to.  No way.  I know it's a thankless job, but earn your thanks by not letting kids slam into one another or wearing each other like backpacks, without penalty!  I, for one, am sick of it.


The high school playoff referees working the Center in San Diego county are all very experienced referees.  Most of these referees are USSF State level or higher, attend 30+ hours of training a year and are assessed multiple times per year.  These will be the same referees working your kid's ECNL, DA, State and National Cup games this spring and summer.  If your kids go on to play college soccer in So Cal, these will be the same referees officiating their games.  Since the San Marcos vs Carlsbad game was an open division game, there was more than likely an assessor watching the game.  

If you are "sick of it" than go through a referee course and change the way games are refereed.
http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/


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## DWickham (Feb 23, 2017)

As a referee and referee instructor, I understand that some referees do not set the bar for calling fouls and misconduct appropriate to the age and skill of the players, and the temperature of the match.   In instructing referees, we talk about the need to call unfair physical conduct because it is important to keep the player's safe (our #1 priority) and because the failure to do so can result in a loss of game control by the referee.  Particularly with teenage players and school rivalries,  loss of control can lead to a brawl.

That said, the notion that everything needs to be called, while commonly held among fans,  is one that is contrary to the traditions and rules of soccer (and perhaps all sports).      I talk to a lot of coaches about this issue.  While few complain that referees are calling too many fouls; most complain when trifling fouls are called against their team.   Most strenuously complain when a goal scoring opportunity is taken away from their team because the referee stopped play rather than awarding the advantage under Law (NFHS rule) 5.  Particularly during playoff games, skilled players can, and want to, play through fouls and contact as they are able to continue the attack. 

But, that also doesn't mean that such contact should be ignored by the referees.  Fans (particularly from the stands) may not notice the referee speaking to the players (both victim and perpetrator) about the conduct.   Private and public warnings are important to match control even if play continues.   The referee also needs to constantly monitor the reaction of the players and the conditions of the match.  What the players may tolerate once, can lead to frustration and retaliation if repeated.  Many boys will be vocal when that point has been reached.  Some girls react differently, and the referee must look for other clues (such as a hard glare). 

I once did an adult match in  which the players no longer wanted to play and were so frustrated that they were mostly involved in hard contact with each other.  In response, I blew the whistle for everything the laws permitted.   I required the restart to be at the exact blade of grass where the foul was committed.   The flow of the game ground to a complete halt.  The game ended ten minutes later without any added time.  It was no fun for anyone,  and there was little "play" during that ten minutes because of my constant whistling. But it was, IMO, necessary to prevent bedlam. The experience taught me, however, the wisdom of the notion, now again expressly in the laws of the game, that the referee must call the game consistent with the spirit of the game, not just the letter of the laws.


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## LadiesMan217 (Feb 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> The high school playoff referees working the Center in San Diego county are all very experienced referees.  Most of these referees are USSF State level or higher, attend 30+ hours of training a year and are assessed multiple times per year.  These will be the same referees working your kid's ECNL, DA, State and National Cup games this spring and summer.  If your kids go on to play college soccer in So Cal, these will be the same referees officiating their games.  Since the San Marcos vs Carlsbad game was an open division game, there was more than likely an assessor watching the game.
> 
> If you are "sick of it" than go through a referee course and change the way games are refereed.
> http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/


Playoff refs have definitely been better than the 70+ year old guys during the regular season.


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## espola (Feb 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> The high school playoff referees working the Center in San Diego county are all very experienced referees.  Most of these referees are USSF State level or higher, attend 30+ hours of training a year and are assessed multiple times per year.  These will be the same referees working your kid's ECNL, DA, State and National Cup games this spring and summer.  If your kids go on to play college soccer in So Cal, these will be the same referees officiating their games.  Since the San Marcos vs Carlsbad game was an open division game, there was more than likely an assessor watching the game.
> 
> If you are "sick of it" than go through a referee course and change the way games are refereed.
> http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/


I must interject here that the craziest referee calls I have seen at the college level were in Southern California.


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## Kicknit22 (Feb 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> The high school playoff referees working the Center in San Diego county are all very experienced referees.  Most of these referees are USSF State level or higher, attend 30+ hours of training a year and are assessed multiple times per year.  These will be the same referees working your kid's ECNL, DA, State and National Cup games this spring and summer.  If your kids go on to play college soccer in So Cal, these will be the same referees officiating their games.  Since the San Marcos vs Carlsbad game was an open division game, there was more than likely an assessor watching the game.
> 
> If you are "sick of it" than go through a referee course and change the way games are refereed.
> http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/


No thanks. Just do your job correctly! Then I won't be sick of it any more.


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