# Flight 1 Criteria?



## KONI (Oct 2, 2016)

Hello all.....my daughter recently started going through evaluations to see who would make up the flight 1 team for next year. Throughout the evaluation the girls did not to do any drills but rather scrimmaged the entire time. My guess is the coaches are looking at aggression, physicality, work rate, and innate ability to understand the game (my daughter is very young and just starting her club journey). Is my guess as to what the coaches are looking for on the right track? Any feedback or experiences with such evaluations would be much appreciated!


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## timbuck (Oct 2, 2016)

I don't know what age your daughter is or what club she is with, but...
1.  Shouldn't the entire Fall season be an evaluation of which she best fits on?
2. Is your club having a separate practice session for this? Or are they using one of their scheduled practices (which should be used for "development") for this evaluation?
3.  Next season starts in August, 2017.  That's 11 months away. Not sure of the age here, but for kids between the ages of 10-13, so much can change in 11 months. 

This sounds like the club is putting some unneeded pressure on kids and parents when we are 1 month into THIS season. Are they also recommending private training to get your kid ready for Flight 1?


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## KONI (Oct 2, 2016)

Thanks for the response timbuck...as for:
1) I would think so as well but this is our first venture into club so not sure about the method to their madness so to speak..
2) evaluations are going to be separate from practices and seem like they will be ongoing as the season progresses....
3) outside training not recommended 

Since this is our first venture into club...got a couple more questions...
1) When is this club season officially over?
2) When do new teams for the next season typically get up and running?

again any responses would be most appreciated...


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## mommato2girls (Oct 2, 2016)

Timbuck, I'm curious too. Our experience has been season ends after State Cup. Tryouts and then spring league kicks in right after the new team is formed. Sometimes tryouts and state cup overlap. But next fall season begins August. We've never been asked to commit nor did I think it was allowed to carry a team through as tryouts are mandatory no? Of course some coaches will carry 'x' amount of girls through but there is no contract saying such? Pls explain, I'm confused. I also think flight 1 at a very young age is not very beneficial to a player but I would argue club at all at a very young age is not advantageous either. But that's just opinion and well you know what they say about those


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## mirage (Oct 3, 2016)

Quick simple feedback on this.  Some clubs have club-wide combines and do eval throughout the year.  In many cases, they select "elite, pre-, super duper- " teams to compete in some showcases and tournaments based on the combine eval.

Now that DA reaches much younger and girls DA starting, its all likely that clubs use these combines to ID potential candidates as well as mentioned above.


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## madcow (Oct 3, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> as tryouts are mandatory no?


No 
Most of the time (depending on the age, level or club, tryouts are a formality). My daughter started playing club halfway through the U8 year. After the season, the coach asked me to be the manager for the U9 year. I said I would, but tryouts haven't happened yet and I'm not sure if she would make the team. The coach just said "aw, that's cute".
At U10, when we tried out for my daughter's current club; at tryouts the A team coach and team went to the corner for practice. The rest of the girls were to put on #s and tryout. My daughter made the B team. At tryouts the next year the A and B teams had their "welcome to the team" dinner the day before tryouts. Before her U12 season, the A team coach just asked my daughter if she wanted to be on the A team. We told the B team coach we were moving and that was that.

If you are serious about moving to a new club, you should be training with that new team prior to tryouts to see if your kid is a good fit and to see if the club, coach and team are a good fit for you as well. As you get older most teams are formed by a phone call from the player to the coach or coach to the player. By the time tryouts roll around, most teams are already formed.


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## mommato2girls (Oct 3, 2016)

Thank you Madcow. I am seeing this, even now with my own kid. I just wish clubs would be more transparent with this type of stuff and not make it a hush, hush behind closed door thing.


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## KONI (Oct 3, 2016)

So with flight 1 teams....is the team pretty much set year in and year out? Our club says that any girl can be replaced at anytime due to in coming talent...is that the case or is the flight 1 team pretty much hard to crack once it has been established? Just trying to gain some understanding on how things work...thanks for the response Madcow..it's does seem like most teams are set very early with clubs holding tryouts just to say that they offer them...


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## mommato2girls (Oct 3, 2016)

Konig in our experience the core group of flight 1 are set, they are pushed through year to year. Sometimes not for the best, sometimes due to parent/coach friendships, player friendships, etc not bc of a skill. But there is always room to add new players, especially as the kids get a little bit older and some lose interest, begin playing another sport, suffer injuries etc. If the coach finds a stellar player I don't believe that would be passed up for the benefit of the team.


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## madcow (Oct 3, 2016)

KONI said:


> So with flight 1 teams....is the team pretty much set year in and year out? Our club says that any girl can be replaced at anytime due to in coming talent...is that the case or is the flight 1 team pretty much hard to crack once it has been established? Just trying to gain some understanding on how things work...thanks for the response Madcow..it's does seem like most teams are set very early with clubs holding tryouts just to say that they offer them...


This is how it was explained to me... and makes sense. At tryouts most coaches are looking to replace a starter. If the girls that are trying out are perceived as only as good as the girls on the bench, then why cut a perfectly happy (as evidenced by them coming back to tryouts the following year) bench player for an unknown family? Coaches are looking to displace a starter with a better starter.
If your kid's goal is to be on a Tier 1 (or whatever higher level) team, then they need to be killing it at the level they are on now. The one exception that I can think of is when the kids move to a bigger field and the roster expands. Then if your kid is a fringe player, they could take a roster spot at that time, but be warned... as the starters get bumped, so does the end of the bench. Your kid should always be striving to take a starting spot.


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## Mystery Train (Oct 3, 2016)

KONI said:


> So with flight 1 teams....is the team pretty much set year in and year out? Our club says that any girl can be replaced at anytime due to in coming talent...is that the case or is the flight 1 team pretty much hard to crack once it has been established? Just trying to gain some understanding on how things work...thanks for the response Madcow..it's does seem like most teams are set very early with clubs holding tryouts just to say that they offer them...


Welcome to club soccer.  I'll give you my jaded take on it: 

First of all "Flight 1" just refers to a division in a particular league (SCDSL).  Flight 1 team rosters (just like Flight 2, 3, CSL Premier, Gold, etc.) change every year as unhappy players/parents/coaches hop from club to club, or as inept Directors of Coaching shuffle coaches around or lose good coaches.  Natural turnover happens every year, so every year, the top teams will have changing rosters.  The quality or level of a team doesn't seem to have much effect on the roster staying put (unless everyone is happy and the coach is happy, which is pretty rare IMO).  I think what is at the heart of your question is the A team vs B team rosters at a given club.  

It's a pretty rare club that moves players from B team to A team.  I was told flat out by a DoC at one club that if a kid is on the B team (at u12) then that's where the kid belongs.  He only wanted the elite athletes with elite size and speed on the top team.   After seeing dozens of "try-outs" where the coaches pay zero attention to what is happening on the field except when the kids run sprints, I attest that most of the time, the coach knows who is going to be on his A team within 20 seconds of watching a kid run.  Their minds are usually made up based on size at the younger ages, moving to more of a focus on speed at the older ages.  The hook that your kid will be rostered on the B team but will always be evaluated with a possibility of moving up to the "Flight 1" or "EGSL" or "ECNL" or WHATEVER, is most often just that.  A hook.  Clubs make all their bank off of B and C team parents with college scholly dreams, while loading their A team rosters with the local genetic lottery winners, and teasing the B team parents that they will be evaluated every year.  Most of that is pure BS.  However, there are some clubs that actually do it.   Now things get really interesting in the older ages as many of the beasts at younger ages top out and the late bloomers catch up.  But none of this has to do with "evaluations" and "try outs."  Anyway, my advice to you is not to give two s#$%s about tryouts, flight 1, 2, ECNL, or whatever right now.  Make sure your kid is having fun every time she practices and plays a game, has a coach she likes and who treats the players well, enjoy the time in the car on the way to games, and get plenty of ice cream after both wins and losses.  If she trains hard, improves her skills, and has above average athletic ability, your daughter will eventually find the right level of competition for her.  Generally speaking with regards to level of play, if your kid is the best one on her team by a long shot, she should find a team where she isn't and work to become the best again.  Rinse and repeat.  Good luck!


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## jrcaesar (Oct 3, 2016)

The above post from @Mystery Train  should be cross-posted everywhere. It is spot on.


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## mirage (Oct 3, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> ......It's a pretty rare club that moves players from B team to A team.  I was told flat out by a DoC at one club that if a kid is on the B team (at u12) then that's where the kid belongs............


Is this true???  I've seen PLENTY of kids moving up from B team to A team on the boys side.  Are girls soccer such that once you kid is pigeon holed, that it?  Not arguing - just find it hard to believe.  Definitely leave those kinds of clubs....

As for getting onto a higher tier teams, its never been an issue.  Just contact the coach of a team you're interested in and arrange a training session or two.  If the coach is interested in the player, will invite the kid back, then offer a spot if all goes well.  Both of my kids never have gone to an official "Tryout" without not knowing if the position is already secured.


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## Mystery Train (Oct 3, 2016)

mirage said:


> Is this true???  I've seen PLENTY of kids moving up from B team to A team on the boys side.  Are girls soccer such that once you kid is pigeon holed, that it?  Not arguing - just find it hard to believe.  Definitely leave those kinds of clubs....
> 
> As for getting onto a higher tier teams, its never been an issue.  Just contact the coach of a team you're interested in and arrange a training session or two.  If the coach is interested in the player, will invite the kid back, then offer a spot if all goes well.  Both of my kids never have gone to an official "Tryout" without not knowing if the position is already secured.


I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it does.  Maybe more for boys than girls, but I don't know.  It happened to my daughter once and a couple of her teammates where they made it from the B to the A team.  But my experience is that it is pretty rare. In those cases, it involved either unusual situation, the A team GK left & no other keepers around, or the age group change or a coaching change.  Some clubs are better than others at giving B team kids a legitimate shot at playing their way onto the A team.  But like @madcow said, unless the B team player is clearly better than a starter on the A team (which isn't often) they don't want to lose a happy bench player for an unknown bench player.  Even in that case, you're demoting a starter to the bench, and likely to lose both the A team bench player and the starter.  So, in my experience, the A team coach rarely is interested in promoting B team players, and more often interested in poaching from the local rival club's A team.  Only my personal experience, if your kid is on a B team, your best bet for advancing the level of team she/he plays on is to go to a different club's A team coach and practice with them.  They will give your kid an unbiased look and tell you straight up.  Your own club is likely to play games in the effort to keep you as a paying customer on the B team rather than risk losing others.  But that only matters if you are more focused on "A", "B", "ECNL" or whatever.  Some of my daughter's best experiences and biggest improvements came from the B team coaches and playing in Bronze and Silver as a younger.  Then we got caught up in chasing the elusive "next level."  It took us a few years, but once we took back our focus from the club and the level of play and the "opportunities" she was getting or not getting, and re-focused on what was best for her right now, it changed everything for the better.


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## Mystery Train (Oct 3, 2016)

mirage said:


> Is this true???  I've seen PLENTY of kids moving up from B team to A team on the boys side.  Are girls soccer such that once you kid is pigeon holed, that it?  Not arguing - just find it hard to believe.  Definitely leave those kinds of clubs....
> 
> As for getting onto a higher tier teams, its never been an issue.  Just contact the coach of a team you're interested in and arrange a training session or two.  If the coach is interested in the player, will invite the kid back, then offer a spot if all goes well.  Both of my kids never have gone to an official "Tryout" without not knowing if the position is already secured.


Also, my original point was that whatever movement between A and B teams does happen is usually from factors like changes in size and speed.  Maybe in the cases of the boys you mention it was a matter of kids hitting puberty and maturing physically?  But yeah, a bunch of people left our old  club because that was the way they ran things.


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## mirage (Oct 3, 2016)

The instances I'm aware of are that the kids earned promotion onto an A team from a B team.  Some clubs promote within first before they go out and find new players.  It is often the case that the newly promoted players tend to be bench players first but not always.  What they typically do is to invite the best players on the B team onto A team games and observe how they do during the league.  If the players meet the coach's expectations, they may earn a permanent promotion over the coming months and participate in tournaments until that season is over.

Also, I agree that at some ages, it may have something to do with puberty.  Its just a fact of life on that point...


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## Mystery Train (Oct 3, 2016)

mirage said:


> The instances I'm aware of are that the kids earned promotion onto an A team from a B team.  Some clubs promote within first before they go out and find new players.


That's the way it should work.  And I know parents at one large successful club that tell me that's how they do it too.  But overall, I'd say that's only true for a select few clubs out of the hundreds of clubs in SoCal.


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## timbuck (Oct 3, 2016)

We now have 3 different field sizes.  So a team that goes from 7v7 to 9v9 to 11v11 will need to add players to A,B and C teams.
What I see happening is a lot of movement between "A" teams. And I think it's for a few reasons:
1.  Better coach fit
2. A player is promised a different position 
3.  Girls don't get along. 
4.  Driving distance.


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## mommato2girls (Oct 3, 2016)

timbuck said:


> We now have 3 different field sizes.  So a team that goes from 7v7 to 9v9 to 11v11 will need to add players to A,B and C teams.
> What I see happening is a lot of movement between "A" teams. And I think it's for a few reasons:
> 1.  Better coach fit
> 2. A player is promised a different position
> ...


I agree, and we are moving bc of the first one but you forgot one, the parents don't get along! Sad but true.


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## timbuck (Oct 3, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> I agree, and we are moving bc of the first one but you forgot one, the parents don't get along! Sad but true.


Yep. That can be a BIG deal.  That's one of the key things that has kept my Extra team together.  When we travel for a tournament it's like a 15 family party.  I don't think I have 15 non-soccer friends that I could stand being with for an entire weekend.


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## Sped (Oct 11, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Yep. That can be a BIG deal.  That's one of the key things that has kept my Extra team together.  When we travel for a tournament it's like a 15 family party.  I don't think I have 15 non-soccer friends that I could stand being with for an entire weekend.


Changing a kid's team because the parents can't play nice is the ultimate act of parental selfishness.  If a kid's happy on a team, parents should just sit down and shut up.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 11, 2016)

Sped said:


> Changing a kid's team because the parents can't play nice is the ultimate act of parental selfishness.  If a kid's happy on a team, parents should just sit down and shut up.


Strongly disagree: Family interests outweigh the individual interest of one's child. (Although one could argue that sitting on a sideline  with 30 people you strongly dislike to maybe earn a scholarship is in the best interest of the family.)


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 11, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Strongly disagree: Family interests outweigh the individual interest of one's child. (Although one could argue that sitting on a sideline  with 30 people you strongly dislike to maybe earn a scholarship is in the best interest of the family.)


Yep! I also have yet to find a team "where the kid is really happy but the parents are not".
Nope.
These kids listen to adults. That's why they start parroting at an early age "Maggie doesn't pass...Charlotte screws up" it's sad.
The ultimate act of selfishness is leaving a kid in a toxic environment for your own ego. That is more the common standard


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## Sped (Oct 11, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Yep! I also have yet to find a team "where the kid is really happy but the parents are not".


I honestly don't know what to say to that.  If a kid's enjoyment of a team is at all impacted by parental influence, those parents suck.  Whether I get on with other parents on the team should have NO impact on whether or not my kid gets on with her teammates.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 11, 2016)

Sped said:


> I honestly don't know what to say to that.  If a kid's enjoyment of a team is at all impacted by parental influence, those parents suck.  Whether I get on with other parents on the team should have NO impact on whether or not my kid gets on with her teammates.


Agree with you 100 percent.


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## Sped (Oct 11, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Strongly disagree: Family interests outweigh the individual interest of one's child. (Although one could argue that sitting on a sideline  with 30 people you strongly dislike to maybe earn a scholarship is in the best interest of the family.)


What do you mean by family interest?  Are you telling me that you can't come to a game, sit down, watch soccer for an hour and then go home without fighting with other parents?  Honestly, there are parents on our team that I've spoken to maybe 1 or 2 times all year - I sit with a few families that I like, smile and say hello to most others, and pretty much don't engage the rest.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 11, 2016)

Sped said:


> What do you mean by family interest?  Are you telling me that you can't come to a game, sit down, watch soccer for an hour and then go home without fighting with other parents?  Honestly, there are parents on our team that I've spoken to maybe 1 or 2 times all year - I sit with a few families that I like, smile and say hello to most others, and pretty much don't engage the rest.


Not speaking for him but I can see how being around some volatile parents may take a toll. Perhaps you haven't been exposed to that yet  but I do agree with you that we should be rising above and modeling appropriate behaviors and that is a lesson in itself. 
Maybe the best way to say it is when you are with a group of great parents like minded it makes for a wonderful season on and off the pitch.


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## mirage (Oct 11, 2016)

Maybe we need to retitle the thread to "Team Tryouts for Parents" or something like it....

Two observations on this:

1) It is kids' game and their team - parents, just shut the @#$%^& up and enjoy spending time with your kid(s) as they grow up and are gone before you know it.  You'll look back and say those were the best years...  I can't believe my older son will be gone this time next year at college and we'll have to settle for watching the webcast of his games.  Better than nothing but its not the same.  The images of U-little seem like no long ago...

2) There are parents and there are parents.  Some are so verbally abusive and loud that other parents on the same team are embarrassed and don't want to have anything to do with some parents.  I get that.  On my younger son's game this past weekend, there was one of those parents on the other team.  I heard on of the parents from that team say something like stuff a sock in his throat...  So how long do you want to put up with that.  I do recall one of the teams at our old club cutting a kid because the parents were so obnoxious and offensive, they told those folks to go find another place and made it clear the reason why the kid was cut.

So, Flt 1 criteria needs to include parent interview during the player tryouts.  Delusional next Messi parents need not apply....


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## mommato2girls (Oct 11, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Yep! I also have yet to find a team "where the kid is really happy but the parents are not".
> Nope.
> These kids listen to adults. That's why they start parroting at an early age "Maggie doesn't pass...Charlotte screws up" it's sad.
> The ultimate act of selfishness is leaving a kid in a toxic environment for your own ego. That is more the common standard


This is exactly what is happening at our team. Certain kids won't pass the ball to 'x' bc she sucks and my Dad told me not to! Everyone come to my house except so and so bc my parents don't like 'x' s parents. My child is not a target of it but it is nevertheless a very unhealthy environment.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 11, 2016)

mirage said:


> Maybe we need to retitle the thread to "Team Tryouts for Parents" or something like it....
> 
> Two observations on this:
> 
> ...


That won't work because the crazies usually have the coaches ear


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## mommato2girls (Oct 11, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> That won't work because the crazies usually have the coaches ear


Or the crazies happen to be the star players parents.


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## ESPNANALYST (Oct 11, 2016)




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## soccercrazy (Oct 12, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> Welcome to club soccer.  I'll give you my jaded take on it:
> 
> First of all "Flight 1" just refers to a division in a particular league (SCDSL).  Flight 1 team rosters (just like Flight 2, 3, CSL Premier, Gold, etc.) change every year as unhappy players/parents/coaches hop from club to club, or as inept Directors of Coaching shuffle coaches around or lose good coaches.  Natural turnover happens every year, so every year, the top teams will have changing rosters.  The quality or level of a team doesn't seem to have much effect on the roster staying put (unless everyone is happy and the coach is happy, which is pretty rare IMO).  I think what is at the heart of your question is the A team vs B team rosters at a given club.
> 
> It's a pretty rare club that moves players from B team to A team.  I was told flat out by a DoC at one club that if a kid is on the B team (at u12) then that's where the kid belongs.  He only wanted the elite athletes with elite size and speed on the top team.   After seeing dozens of "try-outs" where the coaches pay zero attention to what is happening on the field except when the kids run sprints, I attest that most of the time, the coach knows who is going to be on his A team within 20 seconds of watching a kid run.  Their minds are usually made up based on size at the younger ages, moving to more of a focus on speed at the older ages.  The hook that your kid will be rostered on the B team but will always be evaluated with a possibility of moving up to the "Flight 1" or "EGSL" or "ECNL" or WHATEVER, is most often just that.  A hook.  Clubs make all their bank off of B and C team parents with college scholly dreams, while loading their A team rosters with the local genetic lottery winners, and teasing the B team parents that they will be evaluated every year.  Most of that is pure BS.  However, there are some clubs that actually do it.   Now things get really interesting in the older ages as many of the beasts at younger ages top out and the late bloomers catch up.  But none of this has to do with "evaluations" and "try outs."  Anyway, my advice to you is not to give two s#$%s about tryouts, flight 1, 2, ECNL, or whatever right now.  Make sure your kid is having fun every time she practices and plays a game, has a coach she likes and who treats the players well, enjoy the time in the car on the way to games, and get plenty of ice cream after both wins and losses.  If she trains hard, improves her skills, and has above average athletic ability, your daughter will eventually find the right level of competition for her.  Generally speaking with regards to level of play, if your kid is the best one on her team by a long shot, she should find a team where she isn't and work to become the best again.  Rinse and repeat.  Good luck!


Spot on!  Couldn't have said it any better!


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