# Suckers



## Azzurri (Aug 15, 2018)

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-us-soccer-pay-to-play-u20s-20180814-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Here’s how it goes: You sign up your kid for rec soccer at age 6, just to get them outside running around, innocently wanting them to absorb the values of team sports.

At 8, acting on the universal fear of parents not wanting their kid to fall behind, you join a club. It costs $1,200 to $1,500 per year, plus another couple hundred for tournaments, plus the hidden cost of gas and hotels for that out-of-town tournament so you can tell your friends your kid is on a “travel team,” plus $12 to park at some venues. You also might hire private coaches at $50 or $100 per hour.

At 10, you are recruited to a more prestigious, more expensive club loaded with big, strong kids that has better chance of winning State Cups, since most parents, not versed in the nuances of the sport, equate trophies with development.

At 13, if your kid is good enough, you make a team in the U.S. Soccer Development Academy. It costs $2,500 to $3,000 per year, and the travel can double or triple that amount. You practice four days a week, take plane trips for some away games, aren’t guaranteed playing time on rosters that can be as large as 24, are discouraged from playing other sports and are forbidden from playing high school soccer.

Pay even more to play.

And here’s what we get:


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## younothat (Aug 15, 2018)

...And yes, they cash my checks because I’m a sucker, too.”


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## Azzurri (Aug 15, 2018)

Need to combine this with an ATM


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## coachsamy (Aug 15, 2018)

Azzurri said:


> http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-us-soccer-pay-to-play-u20s-20180814-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Here’s how it goes: You sign up your kid for rec soccer at age 6, just to get them outside running around, innocently wanting them to absorb the values of team sports.
> 
> ...


Funny that there is a thread about the 40+ miles travel for tier3 recreational games full of people defending it...


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## Josep (Aug 15, 2018)

A dad approached me at back to school night recently.  He asked me to join Indian Guides.  I was already against that but entertained him to be polite.  Then he told me the price tag; $2000.  

I’m happy my money is spent on a soccer field.  I get to work on my tan, I get to watch my kid laugh.  I get to watch my kid be athletic.


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## Messi>CR7 (Aug 15, 2018)

Josep said:


> I’m happy my money is spent on a soccer field.  I get to work on my tan, I get to watch my kid laugh.  I get to watch my kid be athletic.


+1

My colleague's kid got a rowing scholarship from a UC school a few years back.  It's certainly a great achievement for the kid and the dad couldn't have been more proud.  But as the dad often told me "it's the most boring thing you can ever do with your kids".

I'm always thankful that my kids love soccer.


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## Mystery Train (Aug 15, 2018)

Azzurri said:


> http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-us-soccer-pay-to-play-u20s-20180814-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Here’s how it goes: You sign up your kid for rec soccer at age 6, just to get them outside running around, innocently wanting them to absorb the values of team sports.
> 
> ...


Reading that article, it was like he's a poster on this forum or something... or went on this forum and stole all our hot takes on youth soccer!  I was plagiarized!


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## Enjoy the ride (Aug 15, 2018)

Excellent article. And if you're feeling offended by it, you're missing the point. This is about how we find and train the top talent, the unicorns, that comprise our national teams. The excuse *forever* on the boy's side is we don't have the top athletes because they play football, basketball, etc.  But now that the women are losing? We can't use that same excuse. Our system is flawed, on many levels, and as long as it stays the same, we will continue to lose games on both the men's and the women's sides.


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## timbuck (Aug 15, 2018)

It was actually written because of a tweet from Julie Foudy

From the writer:
@JulieFoudy You wanted to discuss, so I discussed.

From Julie Foudy:
“Bless you for writing @sdutzeigler. I want to staple it to my forehead and have every parent, club official, coach, US Soccer representative read it. PAY to PLAY is broken. Such an important read. Please take the 7 min's to do so. “

Pay to play is broken. Says the lady who charges $400 for a day camp.  (Not saying it’s not a great camp. And might be worth the money.  But she’s probably making some money off of this.


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## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2018)

Enjoy the ride said:


> Excellent article. And if you're feeling offended by it, you're missing the point. This is about how we find and train the top talent, the unicorns, that comprise our national teams. The excuse *forever* on the boy's side is we don't have the top athletes because they play football, basketball, etc.  But now that the women are losing? We can't use that same excuse. Our system is flawed, on many levels, and as long as it stays the same, we will continue to lose games on both the men's and the women's sides.


On the women's side the rest of the world was always bound to catch up.  Europe has gone from women shouldn't play sport to embracing them into their soccer culture.  Soccer is a game about mistakes.  One little mistake from one player and that's it.  It's why a powerhouse like Italy misses the world cup, why Germany got eliminated in the first round, and why Spain set a possession record but couldn't put it away.  The same gap is being closed elsewhere in Olympic competition too (we can debate the impact of Title IX as well, but the main thing was always culture...until recently the rest of the world didn't believe women should play sports).

As I've written before, I think the main culprit is still college (and why most of us have our players playing).  We aren't trying to build a men's (or women's) squad.  We are trying to build college athletes, which is fine if that as soccer nation is what we want.  I just watched a documentary on China (link to an episode below)....China has similar ambitions to us to become competitive (while we are in Europe's shadow, they are in the shadow of the Japanese and Koreans).  One of the things they are struggling with is coaches...it's why they can't build up their player base and are having to import coaches into their academies...they have an academy system but not a broad base of players (like our AYSO or Europe's rec leagues) from which to draw players.  And they can't really build the rec system because the parents don't play and they have very little time to coach.  "pay or play" is our stopgap to the knowledge question and why parents left AYSO (because they had coaches that didn't know how to teach and players that couldn't play).  Without "pay or play" we don't have knowledgeable coaches....as soccer knowledge increases in the US, the need for pay to play coaches will decrease.

Without "pay to play" what does our system look like?  Well it looks like the British system.  It means an AYSO rec system tiered at various levels...lot's of kick ball even at the highest levels...AYSO would abandon the "everybody plays together" philosophy that it's largely backed away from anyways and track and sort kids into various tiers...and it's a very small pro academy system where a lot of risk is placed on the players if they wash out.


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## Simisoccerfan (Aug 15, 2018)

We always get these type of whining articles when we lose.   All about what is wrong with no concrete recommendations for how to improve it written by an author that is mostly a basketball reporter who seems to think we should develop players similar to basketball.   

He didn't seem to bother to check into the Spanish team.  If you do you will see that almost everyone of their players plays for the women's side of a La Liga club (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Athletic Club...).   Most of these players are Professionals playing in one of the best leagues in the world playing a 10 month professional season.  Several of them are capped on their full National Team.   Meanwhile our women are playing part time in college.   Maybe he chose the wrong basketball analogy.  Instead of development analogy he should have used the Olympic basketball analogy where we dominate for years using our college kids but eventually the world caught up and sent their pros, forcing us to do the same.  Our problem is that we have no pros that we can send.    The other problem is that for 99.99% of players playing college soccer and getting a degree is a far better option than skipping college to try and play pro.


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## focomoso (Aug 15, 2018)

From the article:



> It’s the opposite of how basketball players are bred in this country – in rec centers and rutted outdoor courts with frayed nets, without coaches or parents, without uniforms or referees, in pick-up games where kids hone one-on-one skills without the fear of adult disapproval, with freedom and creativity. Sound familiar? Ask Brazilian soccer stars where they got their start.


This is exactly what I was saying on another thread. If American kids don't play soccer on their own, they won't be able to compete with countries that do. The trouble is that this cannot be changed by a federation. It can only be changed by increasing the popularity of the sport and waiting until our kids' kids play for fun all the time.


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## transplant (Aug 15, 2018)

This quite an interesting article and interesting responses from the forum members already.

It seems to me on this forum that all club soccer parents are painted with the same brush – specifically “you are paying a lot of money because you believe your kid is going to be on the national team or get a college scholarship – because that is what the club has told you is a very likely outcome.”  I do believe in some cases the stereotype is true & we all likely know “that parent” – but it is not everyone.

I would argue there is a large group of parents that are a little more realistic about their “investment”.  As the article lays out – it a progression from AYSO to tier 2 team to top team at small club to DA team at large club.  Each with a higher price tag to go with it.  As a parent I am happy when my kids are challenged and challenge themselves to excel to the highest possible level of their abilities.  If that progression through soccer is the opportunity they have in soccer to excel then I am happy to pay the price tag for it.  The learning they can get from that process (including the rejections, being cut, etc) is valuable in real life.  The fact that it has structure, has fields, has a predictable cadence – this is also part of it that I am willing to pay for in a busy world.  Should I, or do I feel guilty about paying this money for my kids? No I do not.  I don’t see another soccer product available to me to get these things.  Do I know I am fortunate to be able to pay the money and am I grateful for it – yes I am.  Do I have an expectation that scholarships and soccer glory are in my kid’s future – no.  Would it be nice, and do I hope so a little – sure – but it is not the reason I pay the money.

Now all of the expensive club soccer “products” on the market are not the same and parents need to look for those that are better than others.  Also, Club soccer is first and foremost a for profit business and you should not think otherwise.  This is, however a statement of club level soccer versus the overall institution of soccer in the US.  The question is can the two be separated?

The obviously sad part of this is all the kids that may love soccer but don’t have the opportunity or the financial resources or the support structure to pass through that progression of soccer and even get a chance to be looked at the national or collegiate level.  Until there is real leadership in US Soccer that will break the cycle we should not expect this to change.  That leadership is not going to come from the for-profit club soccer business and not from the colleges.  Also, I don’t foresee a “soccer parent uprising” that will turn the institution of US soccer on it head. 

I truly curious how real change will happen.  I am pretty sure my kids will be done with soccer before it does.


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## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2018)

focomoso said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I was saying on another thread. If American kids don't play soccer on their own, they won't be able to compete with countries that do. The trouble is that this cannot be changed by a federation. It can only be changed by increasing the popularity of the sport and waiting until our kids' kids play for fun all the time.


Well, a few things.  First, kids are playing basketball less on their own in this country too.  It's because kids are overscheduled and if you let your kid under 13 walk alone to the park some busy body might call child protective services on you.  We simply don't have free range kids anymore, except in our poorer neighborhoods (and then the complains are always to get them off the streets).  Second, the response in basketball has been travel programs too (at least until high school, but increasingly the club programs are becoming important there too for college recruitment).  Third, Americans seem to be in a weird competitive mode (the pendulum having swung from the 90s everybody plays together, everybody gets a trophy heydays of AYSO)...we can't even let kids play video games on their own because they might do it wrong....parents are even hiring fortnite coaches for their kids and paying them more than a private for a soccer class.  Finally, the rest of the world is catching up to us even in men's basketball (which is why we changed from fielding amateur teams to US Dream Teams).

https://www.businessinsider.com/fortnite-coaches-2018-7


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## Enjoy the ride (Aug 15, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> We always get these type of whining articles when we lose.   All about what is wrong with no concrete recommendations for how to improve it written by an author that is mostly a basketball reporter who seems to think we should develop players similar to basketball.
> 
> He didn't seem to bother to check into the Spanish team.  If you do you will see that almost everyone of their players plays for the women's side of a La Liga club (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Athletic Club...).   Most of these players are Professionals playing in one of the best leagues in the world playing a 10 month professional season.  Several of them are capped on their full National Team.   Meanwhile our women are playing part time in college.   Maybe he chose the wrong basketball analogy.  Instead of development analogy he should have used the Olympic basketball analogy where we dominate for years using our college kids but eventually the world caught up and sent their pros, forcing us to do the same.  Our problem is that we have no pros that we can send.    The other problem is that for 99.99% of players playing college soccer and getting a degree is a far better option than skipping college to try and play pro.


The only problem with your olympic basketball analogy is the soccer players are the same age (U20).  I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens next summer in France and then 4 years from then to really compare apples to apples.


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## broshark (Aug 15, 2018)

Josep said:


> A dad approached me at back to school night recently.  He asked me to join Indian Guides.  I was already against that but entertained him to be polite.  Then he told me the price tag; $2000.
> 
> I’m happy my money is spent on a soccer field.  I get to work on my tan, I get to watch my kid laugh.  I get to watch my kid be athletic.


What does your kid get?  But really, if those are your goals, try surfing instead.  Way cheaper and more fun.


Josep said:


> A dad approached me at back to school night recently.  He asked me to join Indian Guides.  I was already against that but entertained him to be polite.  Then he told me the price tag; $2000.
> 
> I’m happy my money is spent on a soccer field.  I get to work on my tan, I get to watch my kid laugh.  I get to watch my kid be athletic.


There are many better ways to spend time with your kid if those are your goals.  Surfing comes to mind and it's much cheaper.


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## timbuck (Aug 15, 2018)

I also saw a tweet from Christian Lavers, Presidents of ECNL. 
“Pay to play is not THE problem in youth soccer & national performance. Leadership, culture, division & politics are far greater issues.  Improving coaching education, cost, frequency and access are larger problems.  Sound bites based on thin analysis don’t help solve anything”

Of course it’s not the problem for him. He is running a closed league with probably the highest costs per player out there.  And people are lining up to tryout for ECNL teams.  
They run a coaching symposium which runs around $400 for 2.5 days. Not a bad deal. It was held this year in San Diego. And next year it will be in Las Vegas.


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## Simisoccerfan (Aug 15, 2018)

Maybe we should just ditch the idea of trying to invest in making the US a powerhouse (or even a qualifier) in international soccer.  Instead embrace what we all know kids are doing which is video games.  ESPN has its esports website and even broadcasts games.  Legend of Legends pros make big money.   I have even heard they expect esports to grow into the 3rd largest sport over the next decade.   We have a huge advantage in this up and coming sport and maybe we should be doubling down on it.  Forming a US Gaming Association and pulling kids out of school to devote more time to gaming.  That way when there is a world cup or it is added to the Olympics we can make sure we dominate.


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## timbuck (Aug 15, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Maybe we should just ditch the idea of trying to invest in making the US a powerhouse (or even a qualifier) in international soccer.  Instead embrace what we all know kids are doing which is video games.  ESPN has its esports website and even broadcasts games.  Legend of Legends pros make big money.   I have even heard they expect esports to grow into the 3rd largest sport over the next decade.   We have a huge advantage in this up and coming sport and maybe we should be doubling down on it.  Forming a US Gaming Association and pulling kids out of school to devote more time to gaming.  That way when there is a world cup or it is added to the Olympics we can make sure we dominate.


I hear that Spike Ball, Can Jam and frisbee golf are up and coming.  Too bad they outlawed Jarts back in the day.  I had a shot to make it big time.  Before I had a giant lawn dart penetrate my cerebral cortex


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## Messi>CR7 (Aug 15, 2018)

transplant said:


> It seems to me on this forum that all club soccer parents are painted with the same brush – specifically “you are paying a lot of money because you believe your kid is going to be on the national team or get a college scholarship – because that is what the club has told you is a very likely outcome.”  I do believe in some cases the stereotype is true & we all likely know “that parent” – but it is not everyone.
> 
> I truly curious how real change will happen.  I am pretty sure my kids will be done with soccer before it does.


Good post.  I hate articles like this.  Other than #pay-to-playIsTheRootOfAllEvil (which is highly debatable), what does this article actually offer?  My DD is in her 4th year of club soccer and I know she won't be on the USWNT.  But she chooses to play and I support her.  If I know for certain that my kids won't study engineering or computer science in college, I will still make them take Calculus in high school.  Not everything we choose to do in life needs to have an ROI.

I also don't know how real change will happen with the current soccer culture and structure in US.  In a one-party system like China, President Xi wants China to be a soccer power, then the whole government and country get behind it.  In our free economy, money talks.  From what I understand, Brazil's domestic league has been in terrible shape for many years and competition is no better than MLS.  But they make money selling their best young players to the European clubs, so they can afford to invest money to develop domestic youth. Consequently their young (and old) players get better at their perspective European clubs every day and they have a formidable national team without a thriving domestic league.  In US, if clubs don't get paid for developing talents, then I don't see another model other than pay-to-play.............especially on the girls' side.


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## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Maybe we should just ditch the idea of trying to invest in making the US a powerhouse (or even a qualifier) in international soccer.  Instead embrace what we all know kids are doing which is video games.  ESPN has its esports website and even broadcasts games.  Legend of Legends pros make big money.   I have even heard they expect esports to grow into the 3rd largest sport over the next decade.   We have a huge advantage in this up and coming sport and maybe we should be doubling down on it.  Forming a US Gaming Association and pulling kids out of school to devote more time to gaming.  That way when there is a world cup or it is added to the Olympics we can make sure we dominate.



Ughh...don't give them ideas and ruin it for the kids.  We already have parents hiring fortnite coaches and people complaining about the fortnite making it harder on pro gamers v. harder on amateurs some-times players.  Before you know it, parents will be former special clubs where only elite players can play together and then competing to who can have the most exclusive group (I have the snipers league...well I have the supersnipers league...well I have the super secret dream academy snipers league).  Then they'll be importing track suited Russian coaches to teach their kids how to hack.  The Russians will demand that the super elite players give up playing with their friends so they can focus 100% on their training.  Colleges will want to get a piece of the action and start offering scholarships.  Regular kids will get discouraged from playing and drop out and the NYTimes will run a piece about how America is in crisis because kids are dropping out of video games.  The elite players will begin to suffer thumb injuries and we'll get an entire physical therapy industry devoted to thumb injuries.   They'll organize a world body of fortnite competitions and Dubai or some other country will bribe the world body to bring the championships to their city.  And Ali-A will declare himself "the greatest fortnite player in the universe" and throw a fit when the US National Teams leaves him off for having a poor attitude.  Nobody wants that.


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## cerebro de fútbol (Aug 15, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Ughh...don't give them ideas and ruin it for the kids.  We already have parents hiring fortnite coaches and people complaining about the fortnite making it harder on pro gamers v. harder on amateurs some-times players.  Before you know it, parents will be former special clubs where only elite players can play together and then competing to who can have the most exclusive group (I have the snipers league...well I have the supersnipers league...well I have the super secret dream academy snipers league).  Then they'll be importing track suited Russian coaches to teach their kids how to hack.  The Russians will demand that the super elite players give up playing with their friends so they can focus 100% on their training.  Colleges will want to get a piece of the action and start offering scholarships.  Regular kids will get discouraged from playing and drop out and the NYTimes will run a piece about how America is in crisis because kids are dropping out of video games.  The elite players will begin to suffer thumb injuries and we'll get an entire physical therapy industry devoted to thumb injuries.   They'll organize a world body of fortnite competitions and Dubai or some other country will bribe the world body to bring the championships to their city.  And Ali-A will declare himself "the greatest fortnite player in the universe" and throw a fit when the US National Teams leaves him off for having a poor attitude.  Nobody wants that.


As long as they can play HS.


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## Chalklines (Aug 15, 2018)

Serious question.

Why is someone always bitching about the cost of parking on here?


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Aug 15, 2018)

P2P would be actually ok for me if coaches actually developed the kids properly and dedicated more than 2 days a week (of course clubs should also be paying them more at current club fee price imo). Play out the back, through mids, first touch, etc. Not just having the goalie punt the ball or the defender kick to the top every single play hoping their forward breaks free eventually.
Not bringing in academy guest players to have your worse players "watch and learn" from them to win trophies.
Having lots of scrimmages instead of no scrimmages then playing in a few tourneys to call that your scrimmage.

I know, the unicorns are out there!!


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Aug 15, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Maybe we should just ditch the idea of trying to invest in making the US a powerhouse (or even a qualifier) in international soccer.  Instead embrace what we all know kids are doing which is video games.  ESPN has its esports website and even broadcasts games.  Legend of Legends pros make big money.   I have even heard they expect esports to grow into the 3rd largest sport over the next decade.   We have a huge advantage in this up and coming sport and maybe we should be doubling down on it.  Forming a US Gaming Association and pulling kids out of school to devote more time to gaming.  That way when there is a world cup or it is added to the Olympics we can make sure we dominate.


We all would like amazing coaches that know the game inside and out that will coach our U-Littles for free all while even the smallest kid gets to play on quality well groomed grass that magically receives all the water it needs from rain. Oh, and our kid will voluntarily get private lessons from a mentor that is also willing to do it for free. Boy, if it wasn't for greed, we could have all that.

Meanwhile in South America they play soccer at recess on a cement floor with metal pipe goals with no nets. (I went to grade school in Peru for a year and this was accurate even at a private school). Also parents worry about their kid staying out too late playing soccer with their friends meanwhile parents in America worry about their kids staying up too late playing Fortnite with their friends.
But wait there is more, take a trip down to any beach in Brazil and you will see them all playing beach soccer. But don't worry, there are also some volleyball games going on at the same time, oh wait, they use the courts to play soccer volleyball. Yeah, pay to play is the main reason why we lose....

BTW the two sports I regularly watch are Soccer and League of Legends. And the Koreans and Chinese consistently kick our ass in League, so we don't even have much of a chance there. The highest paid League player in the North American LCS (League Championship Series) is in fact a Korean import (1 million dollar contract) . So sorry, Americans suck at esports too.​


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## coachsamy (Aug 16, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> We already have parents hiring fortnite coaches


What a ball of LOSERS!!! No wonder Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are infatuated with the idea of colonizing some other planet.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 16, 2018)

Enjoy the ride said:


> Excellent article. And if you're feeling offended by it, you're missing the point. This is about how we find and train the top talent, the unicorns, that comprise our national teams. The excuse *forever* on the boy's side is we don't have the top athletes because they play football, basketball, etc.  But now that the women are losing? We can't use that same excuse. Our system is flawed, on many levels, and as long as it stays the same, we will continue to lose games on both the men's and the women's sides.


What happened to enjoy the ride?


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 16, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> We all would like amazing coaches that know the game inside and out that will coach our U-Littles for free all while even the smallest kid gets to play on quality well groomed grass that magically receives all the water it needs from rain. Oh, and our kid will voluntarily get private lessons from a mentor that is also willing to do it for free. Boy, if it wasn't for greed, we could have all that.
> 
> Meanwhile in South America they play soccer at recess on a cement floor with metal pipe goals with no nets. (I went to grade school in Peru for a year and this was accurate even at a private school). Also parents worry about their kid staying out too late playing soccer with their friends meanwhile parents in America worry about their kids staying up too late playing Fortnite with their friends.
> But wait there is more, take a trip down to any beach in Brazil and you will see them all playing beach soccer. But don't worry, there are also some volleyball games going on at the same time, oh wait, they use the courts to play soccer volleyball. Yeah, pay to play is the main reason why we lose....
> ...


Hit the road, Jack.


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## Enjoy the ride (Aug 16, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What happened to enjoy the ride?


haha! well, since you asked, my name refers to the majority of soccer parents (myself included) who hopefully are "enjoying the ride" - the time, money and energy spent to have kids play competitive soccer regardless of the outcome i.e. that have kids that aren't unicorns and/or won't even play in college (either because not good enough or decide they don't want to be a collegiate athlete). but my take from this article was what the US soccer federation is doing (or not doing) to create World Cup winning teams.


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## Overlap (Aug 16, 2018)

Azzurri said:


> http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-us-soccer-pay-to-play-u20s-20180814-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Here’s how it goes: You sign up your kid for rec soccer at age 6, just to get them outside running around, innocently wanting them to absorb the values of team sports.
> 
> ...


pretty darn close. When you get to the last year of their journey in club you start to realize what a mess it is. I'm thankful we didn't chase the next shiny new thing being tossed out there. Our oldest was at club when the age matrix happened, then DA, DA2, ECNL was already happening and Academy came into play. She stuck with her same club from U12-U18, went on and is playing her second year of college soccer, our youngest is in her last year of club, also stayed at her club. I've seen countless kids (parents) chase the next new thing, it's amazing to me how many of her original club team mates (10) went on to play in college and only a few that went on to ECNL (2) did, while that's just from her team, it makes me wonder, were those 4 x's a week drives, countless hours of homework in the car really worth it for those that left and to those that didn't get much playing time after making that move? For the parents that ended up paying even more in club fee's, what are those parents thinking now. These are all just businesses, looking to make $$$ and as long as parents are willing to make that choice, they have no desire or need to make a change....and everyone is wondering why there's such a big drop off in the sport in the last 1-2 years, maybe the parents (kids) are opting for other things?....


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 16, 2018)

Enjoy the ride said:


> haha! well, since you asked, my name refers to the majority of soccer parents (myself included) who hopefully are "enjoying the ride" - the time, money and energy spent to have kids play competitive soccer regardless of the outcome i.e. that have kids that aren't unicorns and/or won't even play in college (either because not good enough or decide they don't want to be a collegiate athlete). but my take from this article was what the US soccer federation is doing (or not doing) to create World Cup winning teams.


Just messing with you.
I don't see too many good reasons to play club soccer on a higher level team if college isn't in their future.
Lots of time and money involved for my taste with little return.


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## socalkdg (Aug 16, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Good post.  I hate articles like this.  Other than #pay-to-playIsTheRootOfAllEvil (which is highly debatable), what does this article actually offer?  My DD is in her 4th year of club soccer and I know she won't be on the USWNT.  But she chooses to play and I support her.  If I know for certain that my kids won't study engineering or computer science in college, I will still make them take Calculus in high school.  Not everything we choose to do in life needs to have an ROI.


I like this.   I spend at least 7K a year for my older daughter, 16,  for competitive dance.   Will she take Misty Copeland's spot in the ballet?  Nope.   Scholarship?  Nope.  It is her passion and love, and she gets great grades, dances 15-20 hours per week, stays away from boys, never gets in trouble, and is a great teenager (yes she spends too much time on her phone, but I get the feeling all teens do). 

I only spend 1K for my soccer player, would have no problem spending 3K, and could probably find a team to scholarship her (she is a 05 female keeper, turns out they are in high demand  ).  There is a choice for every kid, and I certainly don't fault any parents for the choices that they make.     Who knows how good your kids will eventually become, but we should give them every opportunity if  we can.   I'm just glad both daughters have their passions and my wife and I enjoy watching them grow up.


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## cerebro de fútbol (Aug 16, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> What a ball of LOSERS!!! No wonder Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are infatuated with the idea of colonizing some other planet.


I agree but now even gamers have a shot at college scholarships.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/16/fortnite-coaches-parents-kids-college-scholarships.html


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## focomoso (Aug 16, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Maybe we should just ditch the idea of trying to invest in making the US a powerhouse (or even a qualifier) in international soccer.  Instead embrace what we all know kids are doing which is video games.  ESPN has its esports website and even broadcasts games.  Legend of Legends pros make big money.   I have even heard they expect esports to grow into the 3rd largest sport over the next decade.   We have a huge advantage in this up and coming sport and maybe we should be doubling down on it.  Forming a US Gaming Association and pulling kids out of school to devote more time to gaming.  That way when there is a world cup or it is added to the Olympics we can make sure we dominate.


I know you're having fun, but the US does not have an advantage in esports at all. Japan, China and especially Korea are way ahead of us.


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## outside! (Aug 16, 2018)

focomoso said:


> I know you're having fun, but the US does not have an advantage in esports at all. Japan, China and especially Korea are way ahead of us.


They are also way ahead of us in the number of young people that need glasses. There is a link between lack of exposure to sunlight as a child and the need for glasses.


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## timbuck (Aug 16, 2018)

I also heard that drinking milk as a kid is a gateway to using heroin.  And than 99.9% of heroin users drank milk as a child.


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## outside! (Aug 16, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I also heard that drinking milk as a kid is a gateway to using heroin.  And than 99.9% of heroin users drank milk as a child.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/well/live/for-better-vision-let-the-sunshine-in.html


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 16, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> I like this.   I spend at least 7K a year for my older daughter, 16,  for competitive dance.   Will she take Misty Copeland's spot in the ballet?  Nope.   Scholarship?  Nope.  It is her passion and love, and she gets great grades, dances 15-20 hours per week, stays away from boys, never gets in trouble, and is a great teenager (yes she spends too much time on her phone, but I get the feeling all teens do).
> 
> I only spend 1K for my soccer player, would have no problem spending 3K, and could probably find a team to scholarship her (she is a 05 female keeper, turns out they are in high demand  ).  There is a choice for every kid, and I certainly don't fault any parents for the choices that they make.     Who knows how good your kids will eventually become, but we should give them every opportunity if  we can.   I'm just glad both daughters have their passions and my wife and I enjoy watching them grow up.


Nice post. Like your reasons why and agree with quite a few. Therefore I’m gonna continue to drink the Koolaid, believe the hype, and buy my own track suit.


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## Goforgoal (Aug 16, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> I like this.   I spend at least 7K a year for my older daughter, 16,  for competitive dance.   Will she take Misty Copeland's spot in the ballet?  Nope.   Scholarship?  Nope.  It is her passion and love, and she gets great grades, dances 15-20 hours per week, stays away from boys, never gets in trouble, and is a great teenager (yes she spends too much time on her phone, but I get the feeling all teens do).
> 
> I only spend 1K for my soccer player, would have no problem spending 3K, and could probably find a team to scholarship her (she is a 05 female keeper, turns out they are in high demand  ).  There is a choice for every kid, and I certainly don't fault any parents for the choices that they make.     Who knows how good your kids will eventually become, but we should give them every opportunity if  we can.   I'm just glad both daughters have their passions and my wife and I enjoy watching them grow up.


Hey look! A parent that gets it! It's refreshing to see someone with perspective, rather than the "keep drinking the kool-aid suckers" rhetoric that's so common around here.


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## broshark (Aug 16, 2018)

Part 2 of the story from the UT:  http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-youth-soccer-solutions-pay-to-play-20180816-story.html


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## Chalklines (Aug 16, 2018)

broshark said:


> Part 2 of the story from the UT:  http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-youth-soccer-solutions-pay-to-play-20180816-story.html


We just have too many crappy coaches collecting a pay check and clubs offering watered down extras trying to pass it off for the real deal. Clubs should need more then a tax ID to be formed.

Everyone keeps asking how to fix the problem but the systems been broken from the start. Soccer in the states needs to compleatly reboot at every level in order for change to heppen.


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## coachsamy (Aug 16, 2018)

broshark said:


> Part 2 of the story from the UT:  http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-youth-soccer-solutions-pay-to-play-20180816-story.html


Damn it San Diego Union Tribune, asking for a subscription to read more about NG!


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## younothat (Aug 16, 2018)

broshark said:


> Part 2 of the story from the UT:  http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-youth-soccer-solutions-pay-to-play-20180816-story.html


Bingo!

"instead of just griping about the problem, as I did Tuesday, let’s offer some solutions....
they’re not the only answers, and some are blissfully idealistic in a pay-to-play world where too many of the people getting paid are making too many of the decisions"

The author must have been reading this blog or something, we've touched on just all all these topics and I have in fact stated some of the exact things mentioned for several years for example:
"U.S. Soccer has a $100 million-plus surplus. Retrofitting outdoor basketball courts with futsal goals in disadvantaged neighborhoods to encourage free, open pickup games might not be a bad way to spend some of it"

*Futsal*
Futsal is the five-a-side Brazilian game played on a hard surface (a basketball court works fine) with a smaller, weighted ball that stays on the ground. There are no walls, like in the American bastardization of indoor soccer, so you just can’t kick it willy-nilly without it sailing out of bounds. Instead, it provides players many more meaningful touches on the ball in tighter spaces than an 11 vs. 11 outdoor game.

And it’s fun. One reason is the fast action and 8-7 scorelines. Another is that it’s usually played in the outdoor game’s offseason, without the pressure and expectations of club soccer. No one cares about wins or losses or league standings, and kids seem to more open to experimentation without fear of reprisal.

Christian Pulisic’s father thought highly enough of futsal for his son’s development that, when there were no leagues in the Detroit area, he started one himself. Just so Christian could play.
Iceland adopted a similar philosophy, building soccer “houses” around the country – domed fields open to kids at all hours, either for free play or more structured clubs. (You might have noticed that Iceland, population 334,000, qualified for the 2018 World Cup.)

*Bio-banding*
"Youth players are grouped not by chronological age, where those who hit puberty early or have birthdays in the months after the Jan. 1 cut-off can enjoy huge physical advantages, but by their “biological” age. A formula using your parents’ height determines the percentage of your expected adult size, and you play within those new divisions.

So kids who grow early might be grouped with older kids who have similar physiques and muscle mass. And late bloomers don’t get discouraged or wash out of the sport, instead playing with others of similar physical maturity.

It’s not an exact science but it allows smaller kids to develop their games at their own rate while not allowing the big, fast, strong kids to ignore necessary technical and tactical skills because they can dominate with their physical superiority.

U.S. Soccer, to its credit, held a small bio-banding tournament in April within its Development Academy. Let’s just hope it doesn’t kill the program, as it has with some other outside-the-box proposals, and instead expands it into the mainstream club system"

*Winning*
The Canadian province of Ontario did away with scores in all games through under-12. That might not fly here, but how about getting rid of standings and league championships? Keep standings privately so teams can be arranged in appropriate divisions the following season, but don’t let parents and coaches find them in a couple of clicks on the Internet.

And while we’re at it, let’s get rid of State Cups and other regional or national championships until, say, U-14.

Parents of club players in Southern California are familiar with the windswept, desert outpost of Lancaster. That’s because the city built a 35-field complex and rents it at cut rates to State Cup organizers in exchange for filling hotel rooms otherwise empty on weekends. It’s why San Diego teams regularly end up there, sometimes to play another San Diego team; it’s too far to drive back and forth, so you cough up $170 per night for a broken-down motel.

It’s a scam. Would our lives be any less fulfilling if we didn’t know who is the best under-9 girls team in the state?

*Pick-up soccer*
The United States is a soccer-playing nation, not a soccer nation. There’s a difference.
One idea: Mandate that all clubs affiliated with U.S. Soccer have at least one day per week of pick-up soccer. Players come like they would for practice, coaches group them into teams on small-sided fields, then get out of the way and let ’em play.  No instruction, only imagination.

*Solidarity payments*
'When Neymar was sold from Barcelona to Paris Saint-Germain last year, $10.2 million of his record $252 million transfer fee was sent to Brazilian club Santos, where he joined the youth academy at age 11. They are called solidarity payments, and they’re mandated by FIFA for all clubs that participated in a player’s development between ages 12 and 23.

Except in the United States, where they don’t exist.

That they don’t is a function of labor laws, antitrust laws and a seeming reluctance of entities like Major League Soccer and U.S. Soccer. But there are class-action lawsuits making their way through the courts, so we can hope.

What solidarity payments do is alter the focus of youth clubs, from developing teams to developing individuals. You don’t make any money for winning State Cup, but what happens if your players eventually go pro? Would clubs waste time on kids who help you win now because they matured early, or would they play the long game with patient skill development?

It also might flip the pay-to-play paradigm at some clubs (more with boys than girls). Clubs would be more prone to foot the development bill if they stand to profit down the road'

*Coaching*
U.S. Soccer has an extensive program to license coaches at various levels. It costs money.

What if it were free? That’s another thing Iceland did, paying for hundreds of coaches to go through the respected UEFA licensing program.

Suddenly, you’d flood the market with qualified and motivated coaches from a generation that played the game as youths, in college or beyond. Some, out of a love for the game and for kids, would form teams at cut rates in areas where folks don’t drive Ferraris. Market forces would do the rest. Why pay $2,000 a year when you can get quality coaching for a fraction of the price?

*Curriculum*
It’s one thing to have more licensed coaches. Their effectiveness, though, depends on what you teach them. U.S. Soccer’s national coaching curriculum has been modified over the decades, and it includes some excellent material.

But why not refine it further, with an eye toward not burning out kids before they’re teenagers and not mass-producing robots who view soccer practice like math class or piano lessons – something they do at a prescribed day and time because their parents want them to.

Also on it would be Tom Byer, an American who revolutionized youth development in Japan and recently had a pilot program in Seattle squelched by U.S. Soccer that introduces soccer at home before kids begin playing on teams. So would Todd Beane, an American who runs a respected youth academy in Barcelona and is a pioneer in teaching cognitive development over athleticism.

So would Brian Quinn, the former U.S. national-team player from Northern Ireland who currently is the head men’s coach at the University of San Diego. He has long advocated a two-track system of talent identification – one using the normal parameters, and a parallel track for smaller, late bloomers with supreme technical skills to see if a Leo Messi or Andres Iniesta emerges.

So would Toumi Abdelghani. This is a selfish choice, being my daughter’s coach. He’s a U.S. Soccer coaching instructor but, those who have played for him will tell you, is unlike any youth coach anyone has encountered.

His first priority is not training specific skills but empowering the mind, teaching kids ownership so their decisions on the field are theirs, not an adult screaming from the sidelines. Practices are primarily informal small-sided games with a daily concept introduced, where kids are encouraged – even ordered – to dribble and try moves without fear of failure while he quietly watches.

Two things happen: His players become comfortable on the ball, able to think and problem-solve for themselves. And they learn to love the sport. Practice ends, and they don’t grab their water bottle and bolt for the SUV. They ask to stay, to play longer.

*Soccer the business becomes soccer the game again.*


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 16, 2018)

younothat said:


> Bingo!
> 
> "instead of just griping about the problem, as I did Tuesday, let’s offer some solutions....
> they’re not the only answers, and some are blissfully idealistic in a pay-to-play world where too many of the people getting paid are making too many of the decisions"
> ...


Dude! Great post.


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## Azzurri (Aug 16, 2018)

Classic:

Parents of club players in Southern California are familiar with the windswept, desert outpost of Lancaster. That’s because the city built a 35-field complex and rents it at cut rates to State Cup organizers in exchange for filling hotel rooms otherwise empty on weekends. It’s why San Diego teams regularly end up there, sometimes to play another San Diego team; it’s too far to drive back and forth, so you cough up $170 per night for a broken-down motel.

It’s a scam. Would our lives be any less fulfilling if we didn’t know who is the best under-9 girls team in the state?


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## Azzurri (Aug 16, 2018)

Where else but Lancaster could you afford to stay in the same hotel as Vin!


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## Mystery Train (Aug 16, 2018)

younothat said:


> The author must have been reading this blog or something, we've touched on just all all these topics and I have in fact stated some of the exact things mentioned for several years


Ha! You took the words right out of my mouth. That last part of his article sounds a lot like folks here I know well.


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## Multi Sport (Aug 16, 2018)

"You don’t make any money for winning State Cup.."


That's the only part I disagree with. If a club has a team win SC then that gives them a marketing advantage over other clubs that in turn can bring in more players/money.


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## jpeter (Aug 16, 2018)

Why can't we all put the kids first?
https://www.fcengland.com/news_article/show/942435

This is from a blog poster #Fcengland

"Youth soccer; perhaps we should rename it. Youth soccer _for the benefit of adults_. Yes, that’s much better. Looking at the youth soccer landscape, you’d have to say we rarely put the kids first when making decisions about changes to the structure and organization of the game. Let’s look at some of the issues here in SoCal and across the US in general to explore why that is the case.

*Travel time*
Here in SoCal there are multiple leagues competing for teams spread across a large geographic area. Because of this fractured setup, teams often end up travelling long distances (4+ hours round trips) for a single game. Sometimes, that includes kids as young as 8 years old. Really? We have to put kids of that age in a car for 2 hours (sometimes at 6am) to get a competitive game against other 8 year olds? Absolute madness.

The competing leagues could and should be combined, whether by Cal South or US Soccer directives. They can all still make money (because that’s generally why they do it) in the same way as companies and shareholders still make money when they merge. The geographical issues would be largely removed if leagues combined. Look at the number of soccer clubs in SoCal; there is no need whatsoever to travel any more than an hour for a game of youth soccer, even for higher level teams. For the majority of areas, you could structure leagues and brackets so that travel time for many of the games would likely be 30 minutes or less. Everyone wins by the way; players, clubs, parents, referees. Nobody loses.

The argument that there are not enough players or teams of a similar standard within a short driving distance is completely false, especially for the younger ages. Sure, for the older age groups, the top 5% of players perhaps have the need to travel longer distances to play against teams of a similar level but for the other 95%, it is completely unecessary. Why don’t we just put the kids first and reorganize things so they don’t have to travel so much? We’re adults. We’re intelligent. We’re capable of sending rockets into space and performing medical miracles; if we really want to, we can reorganize the geography of kids’ soccer games with our eyes closed.

*Playing time*

Playing time is a big issue for player development. To improve, you cannot just practice; you also need to play in games. Many clubs have players sitting on the bench for games without seeing a minute of playing time and we all know that isn’t the best way to develop every kid we serve. Everyone in club soccer recognizes that playing time is largely merit-based but there is something to be said for having _all_ players get _some_ playing time in every single game. If a player is on a roster, providing the club and coach have done their jobs properly (and haven’t simply added players purely because they are paying $’s), that player should be capable of playing at the level the team is operating.

Sitting kids for entire games is about nothing else but winning (and we all know how much coaches here love to win, regardless of the cost). If coaches are able to put their winning ego’s aside and place the development of players first by giving everyone time on the field, our kids will be better served overall. Interestingly, the general standard of players would also be higher (due to more playing time and development) and this would foster a higher level of play for everyone, which we would all agree is probably a good thing.

Most clubs mock AYSO’s ‘everyone plays’ approach but there is something to be said for it. Belgium adopted something similar many years ago (after failing badly at the top level they launched Project 2000) and they seem to be doing very well in terms of producing world class players, both on the male and female side. Having everyone get playing time is a big part of their approach to youth development and you’d have to say their approach seems to be working rather better than the current US setup.

*Tournaments*

Tournaments have been structured for maximum financial income and maximum games for a long time. Some teams can play up to four or five games in two days. Is this the best way to allow our kids enough rest to play at 100% and avoid injuries? We already know the answer to that but we continue to do it because “that’s just the way it is with tournaments.”

If we put players first, we would have them play only one game per day, likely longer than the current format which has shortened games in general. Of course, this wouldn’t work for the current tournament organizational and financial structure. However, tournament organizers would have no problem finding a way around that; they are clever people and know how to make money!

If we truly want to put our kids first, we should change the structure and approach of all tournaments. It would need everyone to pull in the same direction and change at the same time to work but as with the leagues merger, it’s easily possible for intelligent people like us.

Why on earth can’t we, as adults, get together and put the kids first with all decisions we make regarding youth soccer? Why can’t we put our ego’s aside and do things that will benefit _all_ of our kids?

It’s time to put the kids first. They’ve been second for too long"


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## socalkdg (Aug 17, 2018)

Are these parents putting their kids first, or just flaunting their money.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/wealthy-parents-help-child-athletes-go-pro-in-their-own-backyards-1534429841


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## espola (Aug 17, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Are these parents putting their kids first, or just flaunting their money.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/wealthy-parents-help-child-athletes-go-pro-in-their-own-backyards-1534429841


How old is this article?  People have been doing this for at least 50 years.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Aug 17, 2018)

How can pay-to-play be the culprit yet none of the solutions in the article addresses pay to play?  

The article has some good points...I think the author hit the nail on the head with "The United States is a soccer-playing nation, not a soccer nation. There’s a difference."  I also like the idea of solidarity payments and making coaching licensing more accessible/cheaper.  

I also think AYSO is part of the solution to elevating US soccer.  US soccer should partner with AYSO to bring in better coaching which would help in retaining players/extending interest in soccer for a longer time at the younger ages.


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## timbuck (Aug 17, 2018)

AYSO actually has really good coaching education.  And for the most part -it’s free.

The problem is that 1/3 of their coaches want to learn and will apply what they learn.  1/3 think they know what they are doing (even if their only exposure to soccer is watching a few World Cup games every 4 years).   And 1/3 have no interest in coaching and are only out there because if they don’t coach, the their kid and a handful of others won’t be able to play.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Aug 17, 2018)

timbuck said:


> AYSO actually has really good coaching education.  And for the most part -it’s free.
> 
> The problem is that 1/3 of their coaches want to learn and will apply what they learn.  1/3 think they know what they are doing (even if tbeir only exposure to soccer is watching a few World Cup games every 4 years).   And 1/3 have no interest in coaching and are only out there because if they don’t coach, the their kid and a handful of others won’t be able to play.


I think the slice of coaches who want to learn and apply what they learn is much larger...maybe 2/3 to 3/4.  The problem is that the majority of these coaches are coming in with little to no soccer experience.  AYSO (or US Soccer) should pay to have a coaching technical director for all of the younger age divisions to help them run practices and to serve as a resource when coaches have questions.


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## timbuck (Aug 17, 2018)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I think the slice of coaches who want to learn and apply what they learn is much larger...maybe 2/3 to 3/4.  The problem is that the majority of these coaches are coming in with little to no soccer experience.  AYSO (or US Soccer) should pay to have a coaching technical director for all of the younger age divisions to help them run practices and to serve as a resource when coaches have questions.


Many of the regions use UK Soccer or a similar option.  Problem is that when a coach has one of these people run a session for them, they see it as a chance to zone out or take the night off.


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## socalkdg (Aug 17, 2018)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I think the slice of coaches who want to learn and apply what they learn is much larger...maybe 2/3 to 3/4.  The problem is that the majority of these coaches are coming in with little to no soccer experience.  AYSO (or US Soccer) should pay to have a coaching technical director for all of the younger age divisions to help them run practices and to serve as a resource when coaches have questions.


Love this idea.   I coached two teams for my daughter, was very new to soccer and never played.   Took all the classes,  learned to referee, and also had my daughter playing Club(as a keeper but she still wanted to play the field at this time) and had a chance to watch club practices.  Daughter would lead practice,  help with all the drills, teach footwork, help the keepers while I'd stay out of the way (just kidding but having someone on a team that can demonstrate a coaches intent is huge).  4 of the girls I coached are now in club and every kid learned some and had a fun.

I'd see some coaches around me talking to their kids for 30 minutes,  others having them stand in lines for drills.   Having a technical director walking around, observing, and helping with these practices would be huge.  Even just 5 minutes to each team on any given night.   AYSO 37 in Corona had players from the UK teach on Friday's and I'd always push the kids to attend, even showing up and scheduling a practice with them.  I knew my limitations, and was always trying to get others to help.


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## watfly (Aug 17, 2018)

Maybe I'm a sucker...

To me "pay-to-play" is not the problem but a symptom of American sports' culture and the difference in soccer culture as compared to what we see in other countries.  I'll admit that "pay-to-play" in club soccer is a unique business model.  The clubs want all the benefits of being for-profit without having the hassles of having customers or providing customer service.  I personally don't care what a DOC makes as long as I believe we're receiving value for our money.  We've left a club because we didn't believe that was the case...in part because the kids were 4th in priority behind club, team and coach combined with the fact that the club (ie DOC) was full of crap.

Based on my very rough calculation, we spend $12 an hour or less for club fees, that doesn't include travel, cleats etc.  Still I think that's a pretty good deal for my son to learn a skill, hangout with friends, be challenged, get some discipline etc.  I get to watch my son compete and to socialize with some great parents from all backgrounds.  For me that's a win-win.  Is club soccer perfect, nope, far from it...the lack of communication can drive you crazy, but overall its a net positive.  Personally, the following don't bother me at all:

-Travel (listening to 10-11 year olds' conversations for an hour is priceless)
-Parking fees
-Unpaved tourney parking lots
-Parent politics (in fact, I find it somewhat entertaining)
-Opposing parent behavior (of course, unless it is directed at the kids)
-Kids on our team that are scholarshipped (more power to them)
-Coaches per diem
-Coaches in track suits
-The DOC's car
-The smell at Oceanside

I also couldn't care less about "pathways" to national teams or college scholarships (I reserve the right to at least partially care about scholarships in a few years).  I'll I really expect for my money is competent and well prepared coaches, administrators, and refs along with decent pitches and competitive opponents.  Anything on top of that is a bonus.


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## Grace T. (Aug 17, 2018)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> How can pay-to-play be the culprit yet none of the solutions in the article addresses pay to play?
> 
> The article has some good points...I think the author hit the nail on the head with "The United States is a soccer-playing nation, not a soccer nation. There’s a difference."  I also like the idea of solidarity payments and making coaching licensing more accessible/cheaper.
> 
> I also think AYSO is part of the solution to elevating US soccer.  US soccer should partner with AYSO to bring in better coaching which would help in retaining players/extending interest in soccer for a longer time at the younger ages.


Part of the problem with making that happen is that AYSO and US Soccer and both glued to their respective philosophy.  A large part of both the coach training in the organizations is drilling the philosophy into them and having the coaches learn the respective pyramids.  From the other thread, and the attitude of US Soccer to the NSCAA training, it seems a large part of what's going on with these orgs is just a turf war.


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## Messi>CR7 (Aug 17, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Nice post. Like your reasons why and agree with quite a few. Therefore I’m gonna continue to drink the Koolaid, believe the hype, and buy my own track suit.


Getting a good coach from the sea of track suits requires some luck..................
https://www.soccer.com/shop/details/mystery-jacket-3-pack-150-value_A70638


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## mirage (Aug 17, 2018)

Hey Azz, nice to see you throw a turd in a punch bowl, like you used to..... Hope everyone is doing well (how's M?). aka mkg3.

I was just walking around the OC Great Park earlier this week while my younger kid was practicing there.  As I walked, there were Pats, Slammers, GPS (aka RealVin's FC United), WCFC (oops OC Surf), LAGOC, Strikers Irvine clubs all with multiple fields each and 2~4 teams per field. 

Lots of U12 and under teams with parents sitting around the field (and coaching their kids mumbling...).  The thing of it is, the vast majority of the practices are the same and the players are middle of the road - just average.  Did not see a single standout player (boy or girl) as I walked. 

In fact I was appalled to see one group of girls (not picking on girls, it just happened to be so - could have easily been boys too) that could not make a successful pass to each other standing still 10 yards apart from each other.  The ball simply were kicked off target.  As soon as they started to move while passing, the ball often found its way to another team's practice.  These must been U14 or so girls with (won't mention club) some Elite/Academy/DPL type of branding on their shirts.  The sad thing is the coach tried to correct it on the spot and the mistakes/sloppiness continued without any improvement.

The point is this is to say that its a clear sign of better economy and parents are led to believe their kid is good enough to play at the so called "high level".  We've created so many leagues/options (i.e., younger DAs, ECNL, DPL, Discovery Bracket, Premier, Flight 1, Gold) each with low teens of teams in each so that every club can have a green river flowing through them.  Note that the clubs are simply reacting to the supply and demands of thirsty parents who want their kid playing at the "high levels". 

Who am I to criticize any parent for trying to do the best.  We all do it. But, look at these teams.  Each with full roster (which means the top players start and the bench players don't play much - only enough to keep the parents off the coaches backs), and since they are playing other average teams in a "high tier", they'll have an average season.  The result is that everyone is not happy but not upset - again middle of the road.  In other words, status quo.

I think most parents intuitively understand this but when it comes to their own child, we throw all rational thinking out the door and seek so called "the best" of our kids.....from parents perspective.  So the fact that my kid was at one of these clubs practices make me a sucker too. 

We pay $3k~4k/yr, which works out to roughly $300~$400/month, or $10~$15/day.  So for a price of 2~3 Starbuck coffees or toll fee on the expressway, our kids play in "pay-to-play" system.  Its actually just fine.  It works and keeps youth sports cottage industry going and going....  And keeps kids constructively engaged in a physical and mental activities.  Its healthy, as long as the kid is enjoying and liking it.

What's not fine is how we go about finding the right players for the Youth National Team. The fundamental formulas being used today is flawed.  We have so many teams and players spread out that how can we find the so called YNT talent pool?  You all agree that there are potentially great players sprinkled all over the place.  They are not all found in DA teams.

We focus so much on finding whats good or right that we often forget that its just as, if not more, important to identify what is NOT good or right.  In mathematics, there is a method to identify false positives so that one can quickly discriminate those out and narrow down to the right set of pools to try to find the target.

It really isn't the culture, or having pickup games or not, or that because only the well off pay to play.  We're just looking at the wrong places and suffering from misplaced emphasis.

So just remember, a sucker is born every minute,  and that if I had a dollar for every time,...


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 17, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Getting a good coach from the sea of track suits requires some luck..................
> https://www.soccer.com/shop/details/mystery-jacket-3-pack-150-value_A70638


Ha! The mystery 3-pack!


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## espola (Aug 17, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Getting a good coach from the sea of track suits requires some luck..................
> https://www.soccer.com/shop/details/mystery-jacket-3-pack-150-value_A70638


Odds are you will get at least one that says "<<something>> Surf".


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## rainbow_unicorn (Aug 18, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Getting a good coach from the sea of track suits requires some luck..................
> https://www.soccer.com/shop/details/mystery-jacket-3-pack-150-value_A70638


Thanks for the link...I just put an order through...couldn't resist.


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## sweeperkeeper (Aug 19, 2018)

Lots of good points being made here.  On the point of youngsters....  Is there anyway to get teams to not to go to State Cup if they are U12?  I think many of us agree that the best U9 team doesn't matter.  If many of the "top teams" start passing on state cup, sadly, I think you would see the next tier teams step in and get excited about winning it.

I read an article a while ago about the Ajax academy (found it! https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html) and how they develop their talent.  A great read and highlights some of the differences between our systems.  

In regards to getting kids into clubs earlier, this is happening in just about every sport.  20-30 years ago a kids athletic career really started in HS, now just about every sport requires 3 years of club experience if they want a hope to make the freshman HS team.  This is everything from running to wrestling.  You can see the same thing happening in academics but I'll digress.


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## GKDad65 (Aug 20, 2018)

Josep said:


> A dad approached me at back to school night recently.  He asked me to join Indian Guides.  I was already against that but entertained him to be polite.  Then he told me the price tag; $2000.
> 
> I’m happy my money is spent on a soccer field.  I get to work on my tan, I get to watch my kid laugh.  I get to watch my kid be athletic.


Can they still call it "Indian Guides"?


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## focomoso (Aug 20, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Ha! The mystery 3-pack!


Can someone fill me in on the track suit thing? It seems like a running joke here, but I don't get it. (What are coaches suppose to wear if not track suits? Not every coach can look like this: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTBz9yfJkDUnVr19K3O8FY1wRFO3YDeeVx8BeRA84XBsVOUaCb1Q)


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Aug 20, 2018)

GKDad65 said:


> Can they still call it "Indian Guides"?


No.  Adventure Guides/Princesses.  At least at our Y.  Yet we still have "tribes," Medicine Men," "Chiefs," etc..


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## timbuck (Aug 20, 2018)

focomoso said:


> Can someone fill me in on the track suit thing? It seems like a running joke here, but I don't get it. (What are coaches suppose to wear if not track suits? Not every coach can look like this: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTBz9yfJkDUnVr19K3O8FY1wRFO3YDeeVx8BeRA84XBsVOUaCb1Q)


When coaches start dressing more like Diego Simeone and less like Coach Sonski from Saved by the Bell -  We will fully know that we have made the sport to expensive.


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 20, 2018)

focomoso said:


> Can someone fill me in on the track suit thing? It seems like a running joke here, but I don't get it. (What are coaches suppose to wear if not track suits? Not every coach can look like this: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTBz9yfJkDUnVr19K3O8FY1wRFO3YDeeVx8BeRA84XBsVOUaCb1Q)


Gareth Southgate has style. It’s a negative descriptive generalization that came about from the many foreign/European coaches. In particular coaches from the UK. Their typical style of dress is of course the track suit. You could say it’s like all gangsters (ie Paulie Walnuts) look like this...


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## Messi>CR7 (Aug 20, 2018)

timbuck said:


> When coaches start dressing more like Diego Simeone and less like Coach Sonski from Saved by the Bell -  We will fully know that we have made the sport to expensive.


Don't you dare make fun of Simeone.  He is hero to many who subscribe to "we don't need no stinking possession".


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## Sunil Illuminati (Aug 20, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Don't you dare make fun of Simeone.  He is hero to many who subscribe to "we don't need no stinking possession".


Does he coach at Slammers or Legends?


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## 46n2 (Aug 20, 2018)

Not that I enjoy the 4-8k I spend a year on a sport that cost nothing to play.....I personally just like soccer.  So Im fine with it

My Kids play for the team they wanted to play with
My Kids play for the coaches they wanted (me too) .
Competition on our level is amazing, not too many weak teams and a few rivalries we have are just plain out fun for both parties, parent and kids are very nice!

In the end , my kids are having fun, we are too far in to go backwards, so its just time to be smart with how we spend and get a few more years out of this.  Yes the travel is the expensive part but I can always ship out my kid with someone but we chose to make it a family affair....

I gotta go now cause the truck got muddy this morning and I have to clean my Legends Sticker off before coach see's its dirty.........


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## Deadpoolscores! (Sep 5, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Love this idea.   I coached two teams for my daughter, was very new to soccer and never played.   Took all the classes,  learned to referee, and also had my daughter playing Club(as a keeper but she still wanted to play the field at this time) and had a chance to watch club practices.  Daughter would lead practice,  help with all the drills, teach footwork, help the keepers while I'd stay out of the way (just kidding but having someone on a team that can demonstrate a coaches intent is huge).  4 of the girls I coached are now in club and every kid learned some and had a fun.
> 
> AYSO 37 in Corona had players from the UK teach on Friday's and I'd always push the kids to attend, even showing up and scheduling a practice with them.


You do realize that those UK players get paid, I have worked with those guys for years. Majority of all the regions do the Friday night clinics with UK folks because they have a contract with them.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2018)

Deadpoolscores! said:


> You do realize that those UK players get paid, I have worked with those guys for years. Majority of all the regions do the Friday night clinics with UK folks because they have a contract with them.



They do the AYSO camps too.  UK International does a training camp for the coaches prior to sending them over.  The training they get is roughly on par with the D license training our coaches get.  Like D level coaches, the quality varies with their prior training and individual personality.  Most are high level rec players, development school players, or washed out academy players that weren't able to make a go of it in the leagues.  Most don't have prior coaching experience and are just looking for a time in the US (we get calls periodically about hosting).  The program is pretty much pre-set for them, so it's hard for any one of them to make a mess of it (they tend to be enthusiastic and to the extent there are problems in the training, it's largely a problem of the program....which in turn is largely a problem of soccer in the UK).  The camps I think are pretty good for the little ones (better frankly than some of the club camps we went to in the early days), but my son's first year in club was his last year in a UK International camp....it just wasn't enough of a challenge for him and even though he was only a GK primarily (and a mediocre club field player) he wound up smoking most of the core and all star players.

I'm sure the money has something to do with it (AYSO has been very aggressive recently about cross partnering with equipment suppliers, movie studios, and marketing firms too).  But it's a reasonable answer to the AYSO rec program's coaching skill gap at the lower/younger levels (having coaches who have never played, considering the UK International coaches have played).  It's a bandaid to a problem that will eventually cure itself as parents who played have kids.

The big challenge for AYSO going forward has been that it loses not only the best players as they age up and out but also the most involved and knowledgeable families as volunteers.  The Extras and United programs are a way to keep that talent for longer, but whether it's successful will depend on a lot of the choices they make in the next 2-3 years.


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## futboldad1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> The program is pretty much pre-set for them, so it's hard for any one of them to make a mess of it (they tend to be enthusiastic and to the extent there are problems in the training, it's largely a problem of the program....*which in turn is largely a problem of soccer in the UK).*


And what problem is it they have? The England teams in the last year won the U19 European Championships, U17 World Cup, U19 World Cup and reached the World Cup semis.......and we wonder why the rest of the world laughs at us....


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> And what problem is it they have? The England teams in the last year won the U19 European Championships, U17 World Cup, U19 World Cup and reached the World Cup semis.......and we wonder why the rest of the world laughs at us....


Well, no nation has the perfect soccer program....the game is always developing.  Just got through Arena's butt-covering book.  It's clear one of the reasons he wasn't able to turn it around is because he is approaching the game like it was in the early 2000s in his heyday.  Soccer is always evolving.  Tiki-taka and everyone jumped on the Spanish bandwagon, the German high press countered and everyone sung Germany's praises, the French negative game and everyone wants to be like France.  

The English papers are constantly bemoaning the problems with English soccer.  While they are doing a lot of things right, their long ball game was easily defeated in the World Cup by teams playing negatively and they got lucky in the brackets and in their goalkeeper.  At the early/lower levels, their kickball is bad as our own (my son has a little friend whose also a keeper/youtuber....our AYSO games are more possession oriented....you could argue that we shouldn't be worrying about possession and the long ball game should rule).  They have a problem in talent selection...their academies track early and are limited, and so you have a bunch of players that are used and losed after having fallen off the academic track (or forced to come to America to get back on that track by playing college here).  They have a professional development problem, like our MLS or Mexico, where foreigners are being developed at the highest levels instead of homegrown talent.  And they have the same gap problem that we do (also highlighted in Arena's book, though sadly he refused to take on the NCAA directly)...they can develop up to age 18/19 but they are struggling with developing their first teams.

If you want to argue England is doing better than we are, well that's just self-evident.  But to say that they are problem free ignores the very issues their press, fans, and people in authority have been discussing.


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## futboldad1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Well, no nation has the perfect soccer program....the game is always developing.  Just got through Arena's butt-covering book.  It's clear one of the reasons he wasn't able to turn it around is because he is approaching the game like it was in the early 2000s in his heyday.  Soccer is always evolving.  Tiki-taka and everyone jumped on the Spanish bandwagon, the German high press countered and everyone sung Germany's praises, the French negative game and everyone wants to be like France.
> 
> The English papers are constantly bemoaning the problems with English soccer.  While they are doing a lot of things right, their long ball game was easily defeated in the World Cup by teams playing negatively and they got lucky in the brackets and in their goalkeeper.  At the early/lower levels, their kickball is bad as our own (my son has a little friend whose also a keeper/youtuber....our AYSO games are more possession oriented....you could argue that we shouldn't be worrying about possession and the long ball game should rule).  They have a problem in talent selection...their academies track early and are limited, and so you have a bunch of players that are used and losed after having fallen off the academic track (or forced to come to America to get back on that track by playing college here).  *They have a professional development problem, like our MLS *or Mexico, where foreigners are being developed at the highest levels instead of homegrown talent.  And they have the same gap problem that we do (also highlighted in Arena's book, though sadly he refused to take on the NCAA directly)...they can develop up to age 18/19 but they are struggling with developing their first teams.
> 
> If you want to argue England is doing better than we are, well that's just self-evident.  But to say that they are problem free ignores the very issues their press, fans, and people in authority have been discussing.


Of course their media bemoans things;  The expectations there are exponentially higher than here and their soccer press is not in the pocket of SUM. I also wouldn't describe their style at the WC as long ball, they repeatedly played out from the back until they went into panic mode vs Croatia in the second half. The press and expectations in Europe are so different. I speak Dutch and you should read what they say over there, plus similar in countries like German, Spain and Argentina where there are myriad issues not least the high average age compared to the French and English NTs. Too many foreign players in the EPL a detriment to the ENT? Sure, but they're doing better than you understand. 

I never argued they were problem free in England... it is you who are making blanket statements that their issues = our issues. To compare their development pathway with MLS is ludicrous.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> Of course their media bemoans things;  The expectations there are exponentially higher than here and their soccer press is not in the pocket of SUM. I also wouldn't describe their style at the WC as long ball, they repeatedly played out from the back until they went into panic mode vs Croatia in the second half. The press and expectations in Europe are so different. I speak Dutch and you should read what they say over there, plus similar in countries like German, Spain and Argentina where there are myriad issues not least the high average age compared to the French and English NTs. Too many foreign players in the EPL a detriment to the ENT? Sure, but they're doing better than you understand.
> 
> I never argued they were problem free in England... it is you who are making blanket statements that their issues = our issues. To compare their development pathway with MLS is ludicrous.


It's hard not to take "And what problem is it they have?" as anything other than an assertion they don't have problems but o.k.^\__/^....I'll take you at your word.

As to the MLS, the main point of comparison there (and similar to the Liga MX before national caps were strengthened) is that they have an issue where foreigners are being developed in the EPL at the expense of the national players, which you seem to concur in from your comment.  But I agree their over 19 development problem is different than ours (ours is fundamentally an issue of college being too attractive, college training too poor, and MLS salaries too low)....the only thing in common there is we both have an over 19 development problem (though for different reasons).


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## Sparky9 (Sep 6, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> No.  Adventure Guides/Princesses.  At least at our Y.  Yet we still have "tribes," Medicine Men," "Chiefs," etc..


I was Little Arrow and my dad was Big Bow but that was only because they wouldnt let him be Chief Yellow Snow


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