# Surf Cup Girls Olders



## Darmah (Jul 25, 2022)

It appears in both girls "best of the best" and "super black" are all ECNL teams in the finals expect the '06 super black flight.  Does that clearly make the ECNL girls a higher league then the others? Or was it just the teams that happened to attend the tournament? My guess is this could be a similar outcome for the girls youngers this weekend.


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## oh canada (Jul 25, 2022)

ECNL is far and away a stronger league. I'm not sure any GA teams even got out of group stage in the top divisions, let alone made it to the Finals. GA is on par with ECRL.


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## VegasParent (Jul 25, 2022)

oh canada said:


> ECNL is far and away a stronger league. I'm not sure any GA teams even got out of group stage in the top divisions, let alone made it to the Finals. GA is on par with ECRL.


ECNL is definitely not far and away the stronger league. Several ECNL teams were beaten by GA and other teams and ECNL beat GA and other teams. My kids GA team beat an ECNL team, an ECRL team and lost a very winnable game against another ECNL team that was not far and away better. I'll agree that the top of ECNL is better then the top of GA. But mid table and below of both leagues are comparable. I would look for the best coaching possible instead of worrying about the league.


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## paytoplay (Jul 25, 2022)

06 GA definitely did not fare well. Or ECRL.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

VegasParent said:


> ECNL is definitely not far and away the stronger league. Several ECNL teams were beaten by GA and other teams and ECNL beat GA and other teams. My kids GA team beat an ECNL team, an ECRL team and lost a very winnable game against another ECNL team that was not far and away better. I'll agree that the top of ECNL is better then the top of GA. But mid table and below of both leagues are comparable. I would look for the best coaching possible instead of worrying about the league.


Exactly how many teams need to win their group in the highest bracket, and in how many age groups, before you would consider ECNL to be far and away the stronger league?  How many ECNL teams actually did win their group in the highest bracket at each age group btw?


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## Larzby (Jul 25, 2022)

Darmah said:


> It appears in both girls "best of the best" and "super black" are all ECNL teams in the finals expect the '06 super black flight.  Does that clearly make the ECNL girls a higher league then the others? Or was it just the teams that happened to attend the tournament? My guess is this could be a similar outcome for the girls youngers this weekend.


The top of the the ECNL teams are the best, without a doubt, but in So Cal that difference is much more dramatic than it is nationally.  But if you look at Surf Cup only, there is often just 1, and maybe 2 GA teams in a bracket with 16 teams.  Even if all teams were exactly equal, you'd only expect very few GA teams to end up in the finals.  

It would be wonderful to see the top GA teams (Colorado Rush, Houston Dash, Michigan Nationals and the like) playing the top ECNL teams more often, but the different platforms like to keep them separate, it seems.

To be sure, you'd have to see whether the top GA teams were signed up for Surf Cup - if you've got the time to check.  But until GA strengthens its ranks in the Southwest, there's not much argument ECNL has the stronger teams at the top of the standings for sure. 

Once you get to the middle and bottom of the ECNL teams, it's less clear, though MANY people have STRONG opinions on it!


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 25, 2022)

Larzby said:


> The top of the the ECNL teams are the best, without a doubt, but in So Cal that difference is much more dramatic than it is nationally.  But if you look at Surf Cup only, there is often just 1, and maybe 2 GA teams in a bracket with 16 teams.  Even if all teams were exactly equal, you'd only expect very few GA teams to end up in the finals.
> 
> It would be wonderful to see the top GA teams (Colorado Rush, Houston Dash, Michigan Nationals and the like) playing the top ECNL teams more often, but the different platforms like to keep them separate, it seems.
> 
> ...


Not to rain on anyone's parade but how long do you think it will take before a midrange ECNL club chooses GA so they can run the league + rack up wins + have access to MLS Next.

It might not happen today or tomorrow but eventually someone will make the move.


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## myself (Jul 25, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade but how long do you think it will take before a midrange ECNL club chooses GA so they can run the league + rack up wins + have access to MLS Next.
> 
> It might not happen today or tomorrow but eventually someone will make the move.


If the rumors are true that girls soccer parents are youth soccer's cash cow, then I'd say not any time soon. If the situation changed to where youth clubs got solidarity payments from their boys players then I think it'd be more likely.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 25, 2022)

myself said:


> If the rumors are true that girls soccer parents are youth soccer's cash cow, then I'd say not any time soon. If the situation changed to where youth clubs got solidarity payments from their boys players then I think it'd be more likely.


Why only for Boys?


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## Sike (Jul 25, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> 06 GA definitely did not fare well. Or ECRL.


Top of the GA nationally is still very high quality. Albion, fresh off their 06 GA national championship played top flight at Surf Cup and tied all three games against very good ECNL opponents (MVLA, Slammers and LAFC). All 3 of their opponents made Champions League playoffs in ECNL this year, with the Slammers team making round of 16. And that Slammers team that they tied this weekend went on to beat SD Surf ECNL in the Surf Cup Semifinals today (and yes, SD Surf had their YNT players).


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## myself (Jul 25, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Why only for Boys?


Transfer fees for men's players currently dwarf those of women.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 25, 2022)

Sike said:


> Top of the GA nationally is still very high quality. Albion, fresh off their 06 GA national championship played top flight at Surf Cup and tied all three games against very good ECNL opponents (MVLA, Slammers and LAFC). All 3 of their opponents made Champions League playoffs in ECNL this year, with the Slammers team making round of 16. And that Slammers team that they tied this weekend went on to beat SD Surf ECNL in the Surf Cup Semifinals today (and yes, SD Surf had their YNT players).


Anyone else or just that one team?  (and good on them for a solid performance!)


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## ToonArmy (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Exactly how many teams need to win their group in the highest bracket, and in how many age groups, before you would consider ECNL to be far and away the stronger league?  How many ECNL teams actually did win their group in the highest bracket at each age group btw?


The poster said he/she agrees the top of the ECNL is better than the top of the GA


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 25, 2022)

myself said:


> Transfer fees for men's players currently dwarf those of women.


Regardless…even the girls game would benefit from solidarity payments.


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## Tranquil (Jul 25, 2022)

Sike said:


> Top of the GA nationally is still very high quality. Albion, fresh off their 06 GA national championship played top flight at Surf Cup and tied all three games against very good ECNL opponents (MVLA, Slammers and LAFC). All 3 of their opponents made Champions League playoffs in ECNL this year, with the Slammers team making round of 16. And that Slammers team that they tied this weekend went on to beat SD Surf ECNL in the Surf Cup Semifinals today (and yes, SD Surf had their YNT players).


.... and Albion G06 did not have two of their YNT players for Surf Cup


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## Nextbigthing (Jul 25, 2022)

Tranquil said:


> .... and Albion G06 did not have two of their YNT players for Surf Cup


is that why they scored one goal in three games?


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## Surf Zombie (Jul 26, 2022)

Larzby said:


> The top of the the ECNL teams are the best, without a doubt, but in So Cal that difference is much more dramatic than it is nationally.  But if you look at Surf Cup only, there is often just 1, and maybe 2 GA teams in a bracket with 16 teams.  Even if all teams were exactly equal, you'd only expect very few GA teams to end up in the finals.
> 
> It would be wonderful to see the top GA teams (Colorado Rush, Houston Dash, Michigan Nationals and the like) playing the top ECNL teams more often, but the different platforms like to keep them separate, it seems.
> 
> ...


Michigan Hawks and Nationals (to both of their credits) set up matches between all of their top teams earlier this year and Hawks won at every age group. Both clubs are doing it again and over Labor Day and Hawks (per their Twitter account) have invited Michigan Jaguars do to the same.

Where I am in the Boston area, the GA & ECNL teams won’t even play in each other’s tournaments for the most part.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 26, 2022)

Surf Zombie said:


> Where I am in the Boston area, the GA & ECNL teams won’t even play in each other’s tournaments for the most part.


It's starting to get that way in Socal as well.


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## diamondcoach (Jul 26, 2022)

Well, only one GA team was in the top bracket for girls U19 (City SC)…and they had a rough weekend. U19 final (Koge/MVLA) had (3) U17 national team players on the field


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## jimlewis (Jul 26, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> It's starting to get that way in Socal as well.


Plenty of tournaments in Socal.  Lots of GA teams playing in Surf Cup.   Lots of ECNL teams playing in Albion Cup.  Not sure what you're referring to.
Socal seems to be an anomaly for GA, few teams and weak ones at that.   Elsewhere in the country its more even relative to ECNL, if not slightly tilted to GA.   Will be very tough for GA to make up ground in Socal as long as Surf, Blues and Slammers are in ECNL.  The top players will always migrate to those clubs in order to compete against other top players.


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## diamondcoach (Jul 26, 2022)

I think somebody noted earlier in this thread that ECNL just seems to have a foothold in SoCal. I think it will be hard for GA to make an impact (at least in that region)… as pointed out, players will gravitate toward more established clubs in order to play against the best competition. No doubt that GA is having success in other parts of the country


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## Surf Zombie (Jul 26, 2022)

In the New England conference most of the top players leave for ECNL by U14. Comparing the GA & ECNL clubs in our area, only one or two of the GA clubs are competitive with the ECNL counterparts. There are some strong ECNL clubs here (PDA, FC Stars, World Class, Scorpions, SUSA & CFC) and only a couple of weaker clubs (East Meadow & FSA) so week to week there is just a huge difference in the level of competition.


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## VegasParent (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Exactly how many teams need to win their group in the highest bracket, and in how many age groups, before you would consider ECNL to be far and away the stronger league?  How many ECNL teams actually did win their group in the highest bracket at each age group btw?


Being in Vegas I look at it this way and maybe I'm over simplifying it. If my kids 06 GA team plays their best game against Blues, Legends, Slammers or Surf, which are arguably the best teams in the ECNL SW conference, and they play their best games, my kids team will lose. Those teams rosters are just better top to bottom. Against the other SW teams the games would be competitive and they would beat the bottom teams. This is the same result the Vegas ECNL 06 team currently has. So it benefits my kid to have the best coach and coaching staff working with her then worrying about the league competition.


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## Sike (Jul 26, 2022)

I spoke with a women's college assistant coach I have known for 15 years this weekend at Surf Cup (D1 west coast school and not Power 5). She basically said GA still has some great teams/players, but there is much more talent in ECNL overall and it shows when they go to events. They still go to GA events, but typically end up watching just a few top teams as the quality tends to drop off quicker than at ECNL events. She said ECNL games are also played at a faster speed, which allows them to evaluate talent better as it equates better to the college game. They aren't typically watching ECRL games at all.


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## futboldad1 (Jul 26, 2022)

VegasParent said:


> Being in Vegas I look at it this way and maybe I'm over simplifying it. If my kids 06 GA team plays their best game against Blues, Legends, Slammers or Surf, which are arguably the best teams in the ECNL SW conference, and they play their best games, my kids team will lose. Those teams rosters are just better top to bottom. Against the other SW teams the games would be competitive and they would beat the bottom teams. This is the same result the Vegas ECNL 06 team currently has. So it benefits my kid to have the best coach and coaching staff working with her then worrying about the league competition.


Good assessment......it does seem the 06 Mojave and Sonoran are split into a top 4 and then the rest......Heat finished 5th but were 26 goals and 14 points behind the 4th placed team LA Breakers....... same story in the Sonoran where Strikers finished 5th but were 40 goals and 16 points behind the 4th placed team SoCal Blues........Koge, Surf and Legends seem to be the definite top dogs among these top 8 teams........Heat one of the best of the next 9 teams and the GA teams would be able to give these bottom 9 a regular close game.......


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## Keepermom2 (Jul 26, 2022)

Sike said:


> They aren't typically watching ECRL games at all.


I think that is an interesting comment from your friend.  I have always thought that was the case because of what I read on this board, but was surprised to see that 16 coaches 9 of which were D1 college coaches and 5 D2 college coaches at our games this weekend and we have a couple of years until graduation.  I know that doesn't compare to ECNL, but it certainly isn't the doomsday that is presented on this board.  I started looking at some Instagram pages of certain clubs and noted several ECRL player commitments to D1 colleges recently.   There definitely seems to be an increase in recruits from ECRL from last year.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

futboldad1 said:


> Good assessment......it does seem the 06 Mojave and Sonoran are split into a top 4 and then the rest......Heat finished 5th but were 26 goals and 14 points behind the 4th placed team LA Breakers....... same story in the Sonoran where Strikers finished 5th but were 40 goals and 16 points behind the 4th placed team SoCal Blues........Koge, Surf and Legends seem to be the definite top dogs among these top 8 teams........Heat one of the best of the next 9 teams and the GA teams would be able to give these bottom 9 a regular close game.......


What age group are you referring to?


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 27, 2022)

diamondcoach said:


> I think somebody noted earlier in this thread that ECNL just seems to have a foothold in SoCal. I think it will be hard for GA to make an impact (at least in that region)… as pointed out, players will gravitate toward more established clubs in order to play against the best competition. No doubt that GA is having success in other parts of the country


I agree that this is the way things are now but if only 2-3 clubs always win every year eventually the rest of the clubs will get fed up with being shut out of the finals and move on. Add in MLS Next on the boys side and GA doesn't seems that bad. On the Boys side ECNL is a distant 2nd to MLS Next.

Also something to consider is for girls if a player is shutout of ECNL options they're going to go to GA over ECRL.

I'm no GA apologist + I do think that the DA was a bunch of garbage. I'd prefer if all clubs played in the same league + had the same opportunities to be the best of the best.


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## crush (Jul 27, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I agree that this is the way things are now but if only 2-3 clubs always win every year eventually the rest of the clubs will get fed up with being shut out of the finals and move on. Add in MLS Next on the boys side and GA doesn't seems that bad. On the Boys side ECNL is a distant 2nd to MLS Next.
> 
> Also something to consider is for girls if a player is shutout of ECNL options they're going to go to GA over ECRL.
> 
> I'm no GA apologist + I do think that the DA was a bunch of garbage. I'd prefer if all clubs played in the same league + had the same opportunities to be the best of the best.


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## Sike (Jul 27, 2022)

Keepermom2 said:


> I think that is an interesting comment from your friend.  I have always thought that was the case because of what I read on this board, but was surprised to see that 16 coaches 9 of which were D1 college coaches and 5 D2 college coaches at our games this weekend and we have a couple of years until graduation.  I know that doesn't compare to ECNL, but it certainly isn't the doomsday that is presented on this board.  I started looking at some Instagram pages of certain clubs and noted several ECRL player commitments to D1 colleges recently.   There definitely seems to be an increase in recruits from ECRL from last year.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't any D1 colleges watching ECRL games. The college I was referring to just doesn't spend their time there. There are a lot of D1 womens programs out there all over the country, and I am sure you are right that some recruit ECRL.


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## Keepermom2 (Jul 27, 2022)

Sike said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't any D1 colleges watching ECRL games. The college I was referring to just doesn't spend their time there. There are a lot of D1 womens programs out there all over the country, and I am sure you are right that some recruit ECRL.


I didn't take it that you were implying that at all.  I am sure it depends on the number of recruits they can get with the low hanging fruit of ECNL games.  Shoot...UCLA or Stanford doesn't even need to attend games (funny their name is always included on ID camps).  They can just look at the list of YNTs and reach out to players via email.  

Before this last weekend, I pretty much concluded most college coaches didn't attend ECRL games.  Having said that, I think the ECRL league is new and what I have seen recently seems to have changed my initial conclusions.  It will be interesting to see what happens over the coming couple of years.


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## Yak (Jul 27, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> On the Boys side ECNL is a distant 2nd to MLS Next.


There is quite a bit of overlap between MLS Next and Boys ECNL.  In the U17 top group at Surf Cup, neither of the two MLS Next teams made it to Monday.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 27, 2022)

Yak said:


> There is quite a bit of overlap between MLS Next and Boys ECNL.  In the U17 top group at Surf Cup, neither of the two MLS Next teams made it to Monday.


Were those the MLS Club associated MLS Next teams or Youth Club associated MLS Next teams? From what I understand the MLS Club associated Next teams are higher level than the other teams.

It doesnt really matter though. My point is that if 2-3 ECNL clubs always win the league eventually other clubs will get tired of being beat on + leave. This is pay to play + parents want wins. If clubs want $$$ they'll make things happen to provide wins.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 27, 2022)

No one on the girls thread cares about MLS NXT.


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## dad4 (Jul 27, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade but how long do you think it will take before a midrange ECNL club chooses GA so they can run the league + rack up wins + have access to MLS Next.
> 
> It might not happen today or tomorrow but eventually someone will make the move.


Quickly looking at the Surf results, I'm not so sure a midrange ECNL club would automatically run the league in GA.

Albion 06GA tied MVLA, Slammers, and LAFC. 

ISC 07GA beat Mustang and Surf, but lost to Beach.

Those don't look like teams that would crumple when facing Santa Rosa or Marin.


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## jimlewis (Jul 27, 2022)

Were those the MLS Club associated MLS Next teams or Youth Club associated MLS Next teams? From what I understand the MLS Club associated Next teams are higher level than the other teams.

It doesnt really matter though. My point is that if 2-3 ECNL clubs always win the league eventually other clubs will get tired of being beat on + leave. This is pay to play + parents want wins. If clubs want $$$ they'll make things happen to provide wins.
[/QUOTE]

Your theory is very flawed, shown just recently by what happened to Strikers.  They had MLS Next, the path was to go to GA on the girls side.  What did all the top players do?  They went to Pateadores to play ECNL.   The best players don't care about beating inferior opponents, they care about competing against the best competition.    The only way an ECNL club moves to GA is if they are kicked out of ECNL.  Now we will see if Strikers even want to join GA with the bottom half of their former ECNL rosters


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## jimlewis (Jul 27, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Quickly looking at the Surf results, I'm not so sure a midrange ECNL club would automatically run the league in GA.
> 
> Albion 06GA tied MVLA, Slammers, and LAFC.
> 
> ...


Albion 06 was best 06 GA team in the country and they managed ties.  Not sure that's the best example.   That being said, that 06 team is still a legacy DA team, which still makes GA a decent league in the 05-07 age groups.  Looking after DA, 08-10, GA is a significantly inferior league.  That will most likely be borne out this weekend.


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## Larzby (Jul 27, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> Albion 06 was best 06 GA team in the country and they managed ties.  Not sure that's the best example.   That being said, that 06 team is still a legacy DA team, which still makes GA a decent league in the 05-07 age groups.  Looking after DA, 08-10, GA is a significantly inferior league.  That will most likely be borne out this weekend.


His point was about the mid-tier ECNL teams.  I don't hear anyone arguing GA is on par with ECNL.  
To your last point, I guess someone should start a thread titled, "Surf Cup Girls Youngers" as we launch into another big weekend.  Certainly there will be plenty of evidence this weekend that ECNL is the superior league.  For the sake of the teams that haven't been invited to the ECNL party, though, I hope there are also some examples of parity as well.  But I've always been a fan of the underdogs!!


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 27, 2022)

Larzby said:


> His point was about the mid-tier ECNL teams.  I don't hear anyone arguing GA is on par with ECNL.
> To your last point, I guess someone should start a thread titled, "Surf Cup Girls Youngers" as we launch into another big weekend.  Certainly there will be plenty of evidence this weekend that ECNL is the superior league.  For the sake of the teams that haven't been invited to the ECNL party, though, I hope there are also some examples of parity as well.  But I've always been a fan of the underdogs!!


For the “pre” ECNL/GA ages, you will still see the non ECNL clubs do very well.  However once you hit that ECNL age range there tends to be a lot of player migration to the ECNL clubs.  The real barometer is do players choose to move to ECNL clubs or GA clubs within similar geographic regions.


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## jimlewis (Jul 27, 2022)

Larzby said:


> His point was about the mid-tier ECNL teams.  I don't hear anyone arguing GA is on par with ECNL.
> To your last point, I guess someone should start a thread titled, "Surf Cup Girls Youngers" as we launch into another big weekend.  Certainly there will be plenty of evidence this weekend that ECNL is the superior league.  For the sake of the teams that haven't been invited to the ECNL party, though, I hope there are also some examples of parity as well.  But I've always been a fan of the underdogs!!


Dont worry, I understand his point, which was in response to another poster saying an ECNL team will leave and run GA.  He made a counter argument and I answered saying you need to look at the  younger ages to see the trend, not focus on established teams that originated in DA.  
I'm glad you're a fan of the underdogs, sounds like you'll be cheering a lot on  your sidelines.


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## paytoplay (Jul 27, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> Albion 06 was best 06 GA team in the country and they managed ties.  Not sure that's the best example.   That being said, that 06 team is still a legacy DA team, which still makes GA a decent league in the 05-07 age groups.  Looking after DA, 08-10, GA is a significantly inferior league.  That will most likely be borne out this weekend.


Looking at 06GA league results, there was undefeated Albion at 30 Goal Differential and the second place team with a goal diff of -1.


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## From the Spot (Jul 27, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> Now we will see if Strikers even want to join GA with the bottom half of their former ECNL rosters


I thought Strikers already applied but the GA turned them down?


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jul 27, 2022)

ECNL and GA 


Larzby said:


> His point was about the mid-tier ECNL teams.  I don't hear anyone arguing GA is on par with ECNL.


ECNL and GA should continue to exist for girls.  ECRL, DPL EA, and all the other EiEIO programs need to go away.  Keep it simple and condense these tiers.   Flight 1 should be the next level below ECNL and GA


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## LouSag (Jul 28, 2022)

Sike said:


> I spoke with a women's college assistant coach I have known for 15 years this weekend at Surf Cup (D1 west coast school and not Power 5). She basically said GA still has some great teams/players, but there is much more talent in ECNL overall and it shows when they go to events. They still go to GA events, but typically end up watching just a few top teams as the quality tends to drop off quicker than at ECNL events. She said ECNL games are also played at a faster speed, which allows them to evaluate talent better as it equates better to the college game. They aren't typically watching ECRL games at all.


This is spot on.  I get the same feedback from my college coach friends.


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## Happened again (Jul 29, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> Plenty of tournaments in Socal.  Lots of GA teams playing in Surf Cup.   Lots of ECNL teams playing in Albion Cup.  Not sure what you're referring to.
> Socal seems to be an anomaly for GA, few teams and weak ones at that.   Elsewhere in the country its more even relative to ECNL, if not slightly tilted to GA.   Will be very tough for GA to make up ground in Socal as long as Surf, Blues and Slammers are in ECNL.  The top players will always migrate to those clubs in order to compete against other top players.


This always seems to be the argument against the GA in socal.  Sure, the top top players will migrate, but what about the others?  There aren't infinite roster slots.  Both leagues provide a platform that the NCAA likes.  I dont' think the GA is trying to make up any ground.  Provide a different environment (at least on paper), retain good clubs, add clubs that expand their reach,.  Plenty of coaches at both league showcases, plenty of players being recruited. 
I think socal parents should rise up..why do you even need ecnl/ga


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## crush (Jul 29, 2022)

Happened again said:


> This always seems to be the argument against the GA in socal.  Sure, the top top players will migrate, but what about the others?  There aren't infinite roster slots.  Both leagues provide a platform that the NCAA likes.  I dont' think the GA is trying to make up any ground.  Provide a different environment (at least on paper), retain good clubs, add clubs that expand their reach,.  Plenty of coaches at both league showcases, plenty of players being recruited.
> I think socal parents should rise up..why do you even need ecnl/ga


I said this 4 years ago and got smashed for it. I lost all my all money and got "kicked" ot of the leagues unless I took a "free ride," which is more about freaking control then "free." SoCal & Norcal could have the best soccer in the world. We could make a YNT right here, just for Cali. But no, the businessmen want travel ball, hotels, privates and so many goodies in the back room. I was priced out and I'm glad I was because if I had some extra cash, I would have spent it because my dd had a dream at the time.


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