# Experience with Multiple Concussions?



## Not From Around Here (Jun 10, 2017)

Does anyone have a daughter that had multiple concussions in 1 season/year.  My U14 daughter sustained her first in October and her second in April.  Recovery in October was 3-4 weeks.  Recovery in spring is closer to 2 months.  At this point, her mother and I are just hoping for a healthy 2017-18 season.

Would love to here the experiences of others whether it is "Yeah, we had the same experience, but have now gone 3 years without a concussion and we don't really worry about it much any more," or "Yeah, we had the same experience and our daughter had a third concussion the next season and had to quit soccer."

Thanks in advance.


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## zebrafish (Jun 10, 2017)

I'm curious how each one happened. 

I played soccer from age ~8 until my mid-30s regularly-- we're talking hundreds of pick-up and organized games. The only time I ever got a concussion in my life was a freak accident as a 6 year old *not* playing soccer. 

I guess I'd wonder-- were these concussions a result of impacts expected to cause a concussion? Was the 2nd one a more severe impact that would explain the longer period of symptoms? Or, was the second one a concussion following a somewhat insignificant collision/impact? If the latter, then I get worried and consider taking a longer period of time off. 

I'd consider a longer time off anyway given the history. I guess that's why you're here asking the question.

Have you consulted with a pediatric neurologist?

This is what keeps me up at night having a kid who plays soccer.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 11, 2017)

Both were the result of the soccer ball hitting her in the face/side of the face/side of the head at a speed where she could not get her head out of the way.  She is a defender and the impacts all happened in the defensive third - crosses that hit her/shots towards the goal.

Both were the results of multiple impacts over the course of a long weekend, or two week period.  No one instance knocked her out, or made her dizzy.  The symptoms presented themselves 1 to 3 days later when she played in another game.  In other words, we made sure she was OK (at least we thought we did), she said she was fine, and then symptoms began when she played afterwards.

We have not seen a neurologist.  The sports medicine doctor that specializes in concussions that we are seeing says that she is healing within the acceptable amount of time.


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## zebrafish (Jun 11, 2017)

Did you ask these questions to the sports medicine person?

Seems like they would have a much better idea how things will turn out in your child's situation given their clinical practice and expertise.

I'm no expert, but 2 months seems like a long time for recovery from a concussion. One thing I do know is that prior concussion and playing in competitive games (vs practices) are both risk factors for additional concussions.

Personally, I despise the over-emphasis on the tournament in youth soccer. I don't think it allows proper mental/physical recovery. It goes against what I've heard coming out of US Soccer and other places (eg see http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/periodization_science_or_just_plain_common_sense/)

I know this isn't your question, but have you thought about trying to see if your coach would allow a more limited involvement due to the injury history? Say, only play 1 game/week max for some period of time (eg next 6 months). I imagine you're sitting there thinking, do we quit or keep going? Probably I would be doing same. Beyond this, there is probably no evidence-based way for your specialist to give you any long-term prognostic information, either. So, any decision is kind of being made blindly about long-term consequences.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 11, 2017)

Yes, we asked many questions of the doctor.  She was great and took her time with us.  She is confident that as long as all symptoms are gone before resuming activity that our daughter should not be scared to continue with soccer.

Her coaches have also been great. They believe in periodization, stress recovery, and the league she was in didn't allow more than 1 game a day.  I believe the league she is in next year goes even further and requires 4 days for 3 games.

I was just hoping there might be some parents out there that have gone through something similar and could share first-hand experiences.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 11, 2017)

Is she wearing any head protection?  After my DD sustained a mild concussion she started wearing the Unequal hero 3.  I highly recommend it.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 11, 2017)

We are exploring that option. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## espola (Jun 11, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Is she wearing any head protection?  After my DD sustained a mild concussion she started wearing the Unequal hero 3.  I highly recommend it.


That provides protection for the outside of the skull.  Concussion injuries are on the inside.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 11, 2017)

The headgear would not have prevented my daughter's concussions as the impacts were more to the face (lower than the headgear protects).  I have been told the headgear is most effective at preventing injury from the head hitting other heads or the ground.  US Soccer says that studies on the effectiveness of headgear are inconclusive, but I am willing to have my daughter try it out.


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## espola (Jun 11, 2017)

Not From Around Here said:


> The headgear would not have prevented my daughter's concussions as the impacts were more to the face (lower than the headgear protects).  I have been told the headgear is most effective at preventing injury from the head hitting other heads or the ground.  US Soccer says that studies on the effectiveness of headgear are inconclusive, but I am willing to have my daughter try it out.


It provides obvious, but skimpy, protection against bruises, cuts, perhaps a skull fracture.  A concussion can result from a fall where the head strikes nothing, but just whips around suddenly.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 11, 2017)

espola said:


> That provides protection for the outside of the skull.  Concussion injuries are on the inside.


Yes but if you look at the G-force rating the Halo it reduces the force, thus reducing brain trama which causes concussions. 

You like to think you know what you are talking about here but I've done the research and spoken to the doctors!  Stick to Poway politics!!!


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## espola (Jun 11, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Yes but if you look at the G-force rating the Halo it reduces the force, thus reducing brain trama which causes concussions.
> 
> You like to think you know what you are talking about here but I've done the research and spoken to the doctors!  Stick to Poway politics!!!


Advertising crap.


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## espola (Jun 11, 2017)

Something like this, sized to fit the head, might work.

http://www.hearthsong.com/bbopand174;-ball.htm?aff=10051&gclid=CjwKEAjw1PPJBRDq9dGHivbXmhcSJAATZd_BYb0sHy0SQ-ob_63GY_B73hRv5FrxcTgYwuEDGkiNxBoCkJTw_wcB


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 11, 2017)

Take your agreement where it has relevance. In the meanwhile, i will share my experiences and research. Your DD plays at what age group???


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## Keeper pops (Jun 11, 2017)

My 03 dd sustained two concussion this past season. The first one was at last year's Man City tournament. She was blind sided with an elbow to the back of her head. She blamed out & didn't pass the concussion protocol. We immediately took her to ER. We kept her home for almost the first week. Mom is a RN (thank goodness). Our club also has a sports trainer who monitored her. She returned after 4 weeks.

The 2nd one was during Thanksgiving weekend. She cleared a corner kick but an opponent inadvertently had a head to head contact. She went down.  She past the considering protocol but didn't play the rest of the weekend. She experienced the headaches about 2 days later so our doc and team trainer monitored her. 

BTW, she's a keeper and  has been wearing a headgear for a few seasons. First she wore the full 90 them changed  to Storelli.


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## espola (Jun 11, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Take your agreement where it has relevance. In the meanwhile, i will share my experiences and research. Your DD plays at what age group???


Your research should have shown you how concussions occur.  With that knowledge, you could see for yourself how little these padded caps will help, especially for someone with an existing injury.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 12, 2017)

Keeper pops said:


> My 03 dd sustained two concussion this past season. The first one was at last year's Man City tournament. She was blind sided with an elbow to the back of her head. She blamed out & didn't pass the concussion protocol. We immediately took her to ER. We kept her home for almost the first week. Mom is a RN (thank goodness). Our club also has a sports trainer who monitored her. She returned after 4 weeks.
> 
> The 2nd one was during Thanksgiving weekend. She cleared a corner kick but an opponent inadvertently had a head to head contact. She went down.  She past the considering protocol but didn't play the rest of the weekend. She experienced the headaches about 2 days later so our doc and team trainer monitored her.
> 
> BTW, she's a keeper and  has been wearing a headgear for a few seasons. First she wore the full 90 them changed  to Storelli.


Thank you for sharing.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2017)

espola said:


> Your research should have shown you how concussions occur.  With that knowledge, you could see for yourself how little these padded caps will help, especially for someone with an existing injury.


Now you are a Dr? Go away DH.


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## socalkdg (Jun 12, 2017)

My kid was kicked in the head during a game this past weekend while playing keeper.  She seems fine.  What symptoms to keep an eye out for?   Did make me think about head gear for the first time.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 12, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> My kid was kicked in the head during a game this past weekend while playing keeper.  She seems fine.  What symptoms to keep an eye out for?   Did make me think about head gear for the first time.


Glad to hear she seems fine.

My daughter displayed all of the typical symptoms - headaches, sensitivity to light and noise, feeling in a fog, trouble focusing, etc.  It was obvious that she was not feeling right (once the symptoms presented themselves 24-48 hours after the injury).


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## socalkdg (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for the info and I hope she gets better.


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## bruinblue14 (Jun 12, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> My kid was kicked in the head during a game this past weekend while playing keeper.  She seems fine.  What symptoms to keep an eye out for?   Did make me think about head gear for the first time.


I'll add nausea, vomiting, lethargy, fatigue, uneven pupils, dizziness to the above. My dd sustained a concussion last October and was out 5 weeks. She was kicked in the head during a game, said she threw up in her mouth a little on impact (sorry, TMI), coach sat her immediately for the rest of the game. She seemed fine right after the game and then started showing symptoms about 2 hours later. Primary care docs unfortunately were not super helpful in our case--I would seek out a pediatric sports med doc with concussion specialty if you can. The worse thing that can happen is for a child to sustain a concussion and then get another concussion on top of an unhealed one. Allowing the first to heal is an absolute must so the more time off the field the better.


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## espola (Jun 12, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> My kid was kicked in the head during a game this past weekend while playing keeper.  She seems fine.  What symptoms to keep an eye out for?   Did make me think about head gear for the first time.


Did she have any feelings of nausea right after or the next day?  If any symptoms show, she should see a doctor.


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## splinter (Jun 12, 2017)

My dd had two concussions within a year of each other but the second one was minor.  I did go out and buy her head gear.   She is a center defender and has to use her head quite a bit.   She has commented multiple times that it feels much better heading balls and she is so used to it now that she doesn't like to play without it.   Whether the studies say it works or it doesn't I know my dd feels better with it and she has had some tough falls and it seemed to help.  As for how they both happened, they were due to being knocked backwards and falling on her head.   One was playing futsal on a basketball court and I don't think anything would have stopped that one but I do think the second one could have been avoided with her current head gear.


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## Not From Around Here (Jun 12, 2017)

splinter said:


> My dd had two concussions within a year of each other but the second one was minor.  I did go out and buy her head gear.   She is a center defender and has to use her head quite a bit.   She has commented multiple times that it feels much better heading balls and she is so used to it now that she doesn't like to play without it.   Whether the studies say it works or it doesn't I know my dd feels better with it and she has had some tough falls and it seemed to help.  As for how they both happened, they were due to being knocked backwards and falling on her head.   One was playing futsal on a basketball court and I don't think anything would have stopped that one but I do think the second one could have been avoided with her current head gear.


Thanks for sharing!


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## coachrefparent (Jun 12, 2017)

bruinblue14 said:


> *I'll add nausea, vomiting, lethargy, fatigue, uneven pupils, dizziness to the above.*


These are very serious symptoms, far beyond the ones mentioned above, which warrant an immediate ER visit. These symptoms can be caused by serious injury including brain bleeding and high pressure in the skull.


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## bruinblue14 (Jun 12, 2017)

Maybe I am overstating the obvious, but if you suspect your kid has gotten a concussion during a tournament early on, I would be really cautious about allowing your kid to play the rest of the weekend, especially since symptoms sometimes don't manifest until a few hours later. Heard a horror story around the time my dd was recovering of a girl who played two consecutive games of a tourney, got a knock to the head in both games. Never completely recovered and went from being an A student to having cognitive problems long term. No game or trophy is worth your kid's brain.

Wishing your dd a speedy recovery.


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## Real Deal (Jun 12, 2017)

bruinblue14 said:


> Maybe I am overstating the obvious, but if you suspect your kid has gotten a concussion during a tournament early on, I would be really cautious about allowing your kid to play the rest of the weekend, especially since symptoms sometimes don't manifest until a few hours later. Heard a horror story around the time my dd was recovering of a girl who played two consecutive games of a tourney, got a knock to the head in both games. Never completely recovered and went from being an A student to having cognitive problems long term. No game or trophy is worth your kid's brain.
> 
> Wishing your dd a speedy recovery.


I had heard that 3 concussions at a young age and you should consider quitting.  This article points to that too.  It's a bit scary:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-trauma/201410/when-quit-contact-sports-due-concussion


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## MWN (May 2, 2018)

I know this thread is old, but I just did my own research on concussions and the current science on treatment and prevention.  Maybe this helps:
http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/concussion-management-science-and-omega-3s.14995/


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## futboldad1 (May 2, 2018)

Real Deal said:


> I had heard that 3 concussions at a young age and you should consider quitting.  This article points to that too.  It's a bit scary:
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-trauma/201410/when-quit-contact-sports-due-concussion


As a doctor explained it to me last year, it depends on the severity of those "concussions". After a third bad one where you've had dizzy spells, headache lasting for several days or longer, nausea then after three I'm calling time on my DD's soccer career. However, if it's more the "she took a hit, seems fine but let's call it a concussion and sit her for two weeks just to be sure" then I'm not sure I'd take the same approach re the three and out for good. To be clear, I'm a big fan of safe rather than sorry and a coach should always take a kid out after a head hit and in most cases sit them for the rest of the game of not for a full week or more under medical guidance to be absolutely sure.


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## growingpains (May 2, 2018)

Real Deal said:


> I had heard that 3 concussions at a young age and you should consider quitting.  This article points to that too.  It's a bit scary:
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-trauma/201410/when-quit-contact-sports-due-concussion


According to the article, 

“Athletes who have sustained three or more concussions are more likely to have long-term cognitive impairment and emotional struggles.”
You’d think it’d be wise to quit after two... 

#mytwocents #threeistoolate


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## growingpains (May 2, 2018)

Not From Around Here said:


> Both were the result of the soccer ball hitting her in the face/side of the face/side of the head at a speed where she could not get her head out of the way.  She is a defender and the impacts all happened in the defensive third - crosses that hit her/shots towards the goal.
> 
> Both were the results of multiple impacts over the course of a long weekend, or two week period.  No one instance knocked her out, or made her dizzy.  The symptoms presented themselves 1 to 3 days later when she played in another game.  In other words, we made sure she was OK (at least we thought we did), she said she was fine, and then symptoms began when she played afterwards.
> 
> We have not seen a neurologist.  The sports medicine doctor that specializes in concussions that we are seeing says that she is healing within the acceptable amount of time.


Thought I’d follow up and see how she’s doing now, did she suffer anymore? Also when it happened, did this happen when she was trying to head the ball or was she just caught off gaurd?

Trying to help guide my DD when it comes to awareness and protecting herself...


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## Surfref (May 2, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> ........To be clear, I'm a big fan of safe rather than sorry and a coach should always take a kid out after a head hit and in most cases sit them for the rest of the game of not for a full week or more under medical guidance to be absolutely sure.


The problem that I run into as a referee is the coach that does not want to take the player out of the game and the parent backs up the coach or the parent insists that the player is fine and should be allowed back in the game. Cal South and the gaming leagues are very specific on what should happen if the referee suspects a head injury, but coaches and parents do not always want to follow the Cal South guidance. I, as a referee, have to take a firm stance on not letting that player back in the game unless cleared by an onsite trainer (during tournaments).  If there is no trainer to clear the player than I am not letting them back in the game and sending a report to the tournament, league and Cal South to report the head injury. It is the referees that do not take a firm stance or ignore the symptoms and the coaches that insist the player is fine to continue playing that are the ones risking the players health.


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## TangoCity (May 2, 2018)

Or the coach that coaches his team to take out players on the other team and the ref or gaming circuit does nothing, causing players to be at higher risk of concussion.


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## Hired Gun (May 2, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Thanks for the info and I hope she gets better.


All good information.  The headgear, headbands won't fully stop a concussion but could lessen the degree of the head trauma.  If a player had a previous concussion, rests for a month (seems to be the average time - going through concussion protocol) with now no symptoms - and then takes an elbow to the head, collision etc.  The band can help to some degree, dampen the blow.   Really have not heard a straight answer (from doctors/trainers) when the symptoms clear - how soon "could" a player resume heading a ball?  from goalie punts?  Never...  Corner kicks? Never?  Balls that bounce on the ground first?  Mid range kicks?  6 months, never?  Obviously technique is very important too - but wow still seems to be taking a chance.  In youth soccer, players need to build/strengthen their neck muscles to counter the blow.  In doing months of research and actually speaking to headband ownership in depth, conversing with doctors - many feel in the next few years head bands could be a requirement like shin guards.  Also only 25% of soccer concussions are from heading the ball and goalies have the highest rate in receiving a concussion.  Once a player receives a concussion, main thing is to rest - no screen time (TV, phones) for at least a week.  First week is critical for recovery.  Off school and gradually returning to society, school then sports.  In actively competing again - no headaches, symptoms after each 6 progressive steps - walking, running, drills, practice no contact, practice, then game.  Still the jury is still out on a lot of this.  You'll be surprised how each doctor handles a concussion these days.   Each has a different approach.  Still have not received a clear answer on heading the ball again... If indeed is it worth the risk after sustaining that first concussion.


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## younothat (May 3, 2018)

American football experience with multiples; ring your bell... ah just shake it off and get back in there after a few plays.

CTE, brain diseases can start sooner if tackle football is played before age 12
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-cte-brain-diseases-can-start-sooner-tackle-football-played-age-12-215912339.html

"“Youth exposure to repetitive head impacts in tackle football may reduce one’s resiliency to brain diseases later in life, including, but not limited to, CTE,” Ann McKee, the director of Boston University’s CTE Center and an author of the study, told the Washington Post. “It makes common sense that children, whose brains are rapidly developing, should not be hitting their heads hundreds of times per season.”

This just came out on this week, based on my on experiences & research I did some years ago we are glad our son stuck with he NFL flag league until he reached high school age.  He was recruited big time to play HS football but  hasn't played yet, was taking about in his senior year after college commitments.

I don't remember the players name but when my son first started academy he meet a 1st team player who was retired due to concussion syndrome.  Kind of scary I recall but my son kind of brushed it off saying maybe he was just too old but that changed for him when one of his friends & teammate actually had to take almost six months off soccer when he was a freshman due to concussion syndrome;  he was irritable, getting ringing in the ears, headaches, had trouble with concentration &  grades.  He liked to head the ball like but son and got hit in the ear & head defending the ball one two many times and he was basically out and hasn't yet returned to the form he once had, but he did recover but sticks to non contact sports for the most part.

The new rules about heading for the younger's  might be controversial, but based on new research and knowing what I know now I think I would have been better for him not to start heading the ball when he was like 6, by the time he reached HS he had already been heading for like 8+ years and that's a lot of hits over the years of practices, games, tournaments, etc.  My 2 cents.


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## Not_that_Serious (May 3, 2018)

My son had a bad concussion and have had several kids on his team have multiple concussions.

Protocol my son's pediatrician "must" follow:

1st Concussion - Out for 2 weeks from play, no reading, straining, low light atmospheres. If headaches occur, even at school, go home and rest. 

2nd Concussion - Out for at minimum 3 months. No sports, No running around. Same protocol with school work. Brain scans. Doctor visit every 10 days to start. 

3rd Concussion - Kid is done with sports. Period. End of Story.

I argued about "when i was a kid", but said not the same. I had to agree that sports wasnt worth kid's long term health, quality of life and risking early death.

My wife suffered a bad concussion at work with a blow to the head. Migraines all the time. Only relief now is via A.R.T. Could probably get rid of them with aggressive treatment, but only takes time and money. Another factor some dont take into a count. It can be a lifetime problem which will require a lot of financial resources and time to manage


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## Not_that_Serious (May 3, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> My kid was kicked in the head during a game this past weekend while playing keeper.  She seems fine.  What symptoms to keep an eye out for?   Did make me think about head gear for the first time.


dizziness. confusion, staring into space, sensitivity to light, vomiting (instant proof of concussion), headaches, blackout (was a concussion)


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## ultimate20 (May 4, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> My son had a bad concussion and have had several kids on his team have multiple concussions.
> 
> Protocol my son's pediatrician "must" follow:
> 
> ...



Just curious, as to what age this is referring to?  10 yo?  15? or any sub 18 year old?  Thanks.


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## Not_that_Serious (May 4, 2018)

ultimate20 said:


> Just curious, as to what age this is referring to?  10 yo?  15? or any sub 18 year old?  Thanks.


[QUOTE="ultimate20, post: 1943Al

My doctor is hyper conservative. From the convo I reasonably concluded he meant anyone under 18. Most breakup guidelines using ages 5-12 & 13-18. Everyone develops differently but I guess they have to set the mark to make guidelines. Most doctors/literature online isnt as strict.  For example, some doctors/guidelines say only to monitor kids 24-48 hours before making a decision for them to return to non-contact play - which is a bit quick in my opinion given the concussions I have seen. Even light activity bothered the kids I have seen - obviously you just have to sit them down. Studies show you even have to limit cognitive activity as much as possible or the concussion symptoms will be prolonged.  The kids I have seen out "cold" for more than a minute are the kids who have symptoms for a long period of time - even months. No real time frame for recovery, look at Justin Morneau's case, and he was a grown adult.

Here is something I read that makes me follow my doctors advice and tell other parents who think "he/she looks fine, suck it up":  one study documented *9%* of people who suffered a 2nd concussion while recovering from a concussion *DIED.*  I wouldnt take that chance with ANY child.


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## MWN (May 4, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> Here is something I read that makes me follow my doctors advice and tell other parents who think "he/she looks fine, suck it up":  one study documented *9%* of people who suffered a 2nd concussion while recovering from a concussion *DIED.*  I wouldnt take that chance with ANY child.


Actually, the* mortality rate* for SIS (Second Impact Syndrome), which occurs when a person has yet to recover from the 1st concussion and then suffers a second concussion is roughly *50%*.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/second-impact-syndrome


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## Sheriff Joe (May 4, 2018)

I need to think twice before getting on my daughter for not being aggressive in the air.


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## Not_that_Serious (May 4, 2018)

MWN said:


> Actually, the* mortality rate* for SIS (Second Impact Syndrome), which occurs when a person has yet to recover from the 1st concussion and then suffers a second concussion is roughly *50%*.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/second
> 
> 
> MWN said:
> ...


the study with 50% mortality rate (2007 study) is often questioned  another study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672291/

in either case the mortality rate is between *9% - 50%*. which is still mind-blowing. The study above also noted something I really didnt think about - car accidents. You cant plan for a car accident. So it isnt as simple as not letting your kid play again too quickly. They can fall, be horsing around and hit their head, be in a car accident or jolt their head by having to brake quickly. When my oldest had his concussion, he would complain about heading the ball, even months afterward - in fact, as I sit and think about it, he says it still bothers him to head a ball. Hard to tell if its psychosomatic or if the concussion has made him more sensitive to any head trauma. I told  have my kid focus on his heading technique, strengthening neck muscles (along with maintaining flexibility) but in the end it might not matter if he is always worried about the impact of the ball. The concussion he experienced was over 2 years ago and he still worries about impacts.


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## Not_that_Serious (May 4, 2018)

sorry 50% mortality rate study was in 99'. these studies should be given to parents who play sports. dont think id let my kid play HS football given he his head injury history. we are probably lucky he hasnt had more head knocks given he plays keeper half-full games


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