# Let's Rework State CUp



## Riggins (Feb 25, 2018)

This year, once again, has me thinking that State Cup is just ridiculous. Why do we take everyone of one age group and have them all drive out to a single site? All of Cal South B06 headed to Lancaster for a weekend. Then, even worse, if you advance you get to head back to Lancaster for possibly one single game. For our team that is 3 hours of driving each way.

So, how do we fix this? Well, why do we do like the college basketball? You compete more locally to determine a "Sectional Champion". Once that is complete you travel a bit further for Regional Finals. Finally, there is the big trip to the capital for the State Championship. 

Consider the state broken up into sections like this. In one weekend everyone plays sectionals closer to home. Just like a normal weekend tournament. Maybe 8 teams in a section. Then the next weekend it is a new tournament. Regionals. Maybe its 16 teams and straight bracket play. Only teams losing in the first round get a consolation game so they are traveling for "one and done". That round could be at the bigger locations like Lancaster, Silver Lakes, Galloway, or the OC Great Park. Finally, the State Championship. 

Seems to me this would be better in a number of ways. First, there are intermediate "champions". When my school won Sectionals we would hang a banner in the rafters. It was a big deal. Regionals even more important. Going to State, wow, that was an huge deal. It would be nice to get that building excitement into State Cup.

I'm sure there are other solutions, but making everyone drive to sites that are simply terrible this time of year -- Lancaster and their 30mph winds -- seems like the wrong plan.


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## USC (Feb 25, 2018)

Great idea!!! It’s ridiculous that so many games are played in that crappy venue!


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## GunninGopher (Feb 25, 2018)

So with this plan the teams play the same teams that they see in league play and local tournaments. Hardly a "State Cup" experience. 

From what I've seen, the kids like the trips. Its the parents (like me) that gripe about going to the high desert. Thankfully, my daughter is older and doesn't seem to have to play there anymore. We even did Apple Valley one time. Long drive to a sleepy town with crappy fields. Is state cup there anymore?

Still, I'd rather have done that than have the team play the same local teams we saw all the time.


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## Riggins (Feb 26, 2018)

It isn't necessarily the same exact teams. There are several different leagues. For example, my son plays in SCDSL but there is also Coast League in the area. None the less, if you did the Sectionals, then yeah, it could be some of the same teams. You could say they are your "rivals". You need to be the best in your section to move on.

But, like I said, there could be other plans. For example, jump straight to Regionals. Not quite as "close to home" but still probably nothing more than an hour drive for most people. You have more diverse competition and still the extra level of "Regional Champion". Maybe Regionals is a two weekend affair to get all the games in. If you had 8 regions in Cal South that would be enough to seed a good State Cup. With 8 teams State Cup can be two pools of four with the pool winners making the finals. Or brackets. Either would work fine.

Even if nothing else changes, pick good facilities! Lancaster is just in the middle of nowhere with terrible weather/wind this time of year. Gallaway doesn't even have grass on their fields. At the very least, the teams that make it out of pool play should get to go somewhere with good fields and facilities.


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## Zdrone (Feb 26, 2018)

While I like the idea, are there enough large (nice) venues to handle the number of games to support this?  
Silverlakes is 1:30 hours from us but a good venue.
Oceanside (SoCal soccer complex) is 2:15 - 3:00 hours but also a good venue.
Galway Downs, I think only the Millennium Falcon will make it in less than 12 parsecs.  Good venue in the past but I've heard its getting run down.

What else is further West/North that can handle even a fraction of the games?


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## Josep (Feb 26, 2018)

Lancaster is part of the initiation of club Soccer my friend.  Nearly everyone passes through there, or as the last poster says, Apple Valley.  Going to those crapholes is a rite of passage, and parents (including me) have complained about them forever.  But the kids don’t mind staying at the flea bag in as long as they can hang out together for 48 straight hours.  

I remember one state cup in a Apple Valley, maybe 7-8 years ago out there in February and the field was frosted with ice, and with the wind it felt like it was in the teens.  

I agree with the sentiment already said.  It’s the parents that complain. But these are the same parents that like to brag to their coworkers and post on Facebook their kid is playing “State Cup.”

Truth is, it’s already set up to as a regional.  An hour drive is lucky.  There are teams like eagles or real SoCal that have to drive to play Albion, Surf, or Galaxy’s SD on a weekly basis.  That’s 2.5 in the car especially when Del Mar races are running. Of course that occurs vice versa. 

You think this is bad? Play ENCL where you have league games in other states, and the games are on Sundays.   

DA also forces you to travel between NorCal and SoCal and play showcases that are all over. The boys from all over the country just came to LA Galaxy for a showcase I believe last weekend. 

If you want it any more localized, consider playing AYSO.


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## timbuck (Feb 26, 2018)

Does anybody know what it would take for CalSouth to consider any changes? Who at CalSouth would be the person to reach out to on this?  Would a petition help them to look at changes?  Do they only listen to club presidents?  League Presidents?  Do they talk to end users / families?
Do they even know that 90% of participants (players, parents, coaches) think that the current format of State Cup in CA is terrible?  (I totally made up that 90% number.  But there isn't one person I've ever spoken with about the current format that doesn't have some type of criticism).  Or do they see that participation is even or up year over year, so why change things?
I don't have the venues that much.  There are a lot of teams from LA and Central Coast that make the trek down this way.  I've been to Lancaster, Norco, Galway Downs and Oceanside.  While I'd love to play at the Great Park, I realize you can't please everyone when we live in an area where traffic stinks and land is scarce.  (Heck - lots of people on this board drive to Vegas in January for Vegas Cup too).
My biggest issue with State Cup is the timing.  I'd like to see it played before the end of December (before teams break up) or in the Spring (after new teams are formed and have been together for a bit).
I've got a slow day at work and I am going to gather some info on when most other states have their State Cup competition.
A quick google search shows the following:
*Arizona *-  Starts April 20 and only for 12u and above
*Nevada *- Appears they have a  Winter season as a qualifier and then the finals are April 21-22
*Oregon* - Looks like they play in November for u11-u14.  And Spring for u15-u19
*South Texas* - Open Bracket/Play in games are April 7/8.  April 28 starts "District Play" with the finals on Memorial Day weekend
*Illinois* - May 12  starts the group play. Finals are Memorial Day weekend.


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## espola (Feb 26, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Does anybody know what it would take for CalSouth to consider any changes? Who at CalSouth would be the person to reach out to on this?  Would a petition help them to look at changes?  Do they only listen to club presidents?  League Presidents?  Do they talk to end users / families?
> Do they even know that 90% of participants (players, parents, coaches) think that the current format of State Cup in CA is terrible?  (I totally made up that 90% number.  But there isn't one person I've ever spoken with about the current format that doesn't have some type of criticism).  Or do they see that participation is even or up year over year, so why change things?
> I don't have the venues that much.  There are a lot of teams from LA and Central Coast that make the trek down this way.  I've been to Lancaster, Norco, Galway Downs and Oceanside.  While I'd love to play at the Great Park, I realize you can't please everyone when we live in an area where traffic stinks and land is scarce.  (Heck - lots of people on this board drive to Vegas in January for Vegas Cup too).
> My biggest issue with State Cup is the timing.  I'd like to see it played before the end of December (before teams break up) or in the Spring (after new teams are formed and have been together for a bit).
> ...


How many of those places have boys or girls single-year brackets with over 100 teams in the opening field?  Cal South made changes a few years back to split State Cup into three levels, but even after that many age groups go to a Round of 64 after the opening weekend.

As for Lancaster, any locale that wants to bump it from consideration first has to construct a facility with over 30 fields.


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## forsomuch (Feb 26, 2018)

Sectional play is probably the best idea. Never forget having to drive to Lancaster to watch the u9 A team play the u9 B team from the same club, had to play each other at 8:30 am not a happy group of parents.


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## Josep (Feb 26, 2018)

forsomuch said:


> Sectional play is probably the best idea. Never forget having to drive to Lancaster to watch the u9 A team play the u9 B team from the same club, had to play each other at 8:30 am not a happy group of parents.



Oh yes.  Or when three south OC or SD teams travel to Lancaster.  

Hotel money is also part of the consideration.  Lancaster was smart. Real estate was cheap and they created an enormous facility years ago.


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## timbuck (Feb 26, 2018)

espola said:


> How many of those places have boys or girls single-year brackets with over 100 teams in the opening field?  Cal South made changes a few years back to split State Cup into three levels, but even after that many age groups go to a Round of 64 after the opening weekend.
> 
> As for Lancaster, any locale that wants to bump it from consideration first has to construct a facility with over 30 fields.


It seems that many of those states don't start State Cup until u11 or u12.  
I'll look closer, but I don't know that other states have as many tiers for state cup as we do either.


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## mkg68 (Feb 26, 2018)

I agree, it's ridiculous. Lancaster, Apple Valley in the winter is laughable for soccer. Worst conditions you'll ever play in. 

So why play in CalSouth's State Cup? Because everyone else is? 

It's a crappy tournament, with crappy seeding, at crappy venues, that goes on way too long, at a time of the year after tryouts have already happened (which causes its own problems). 

It would only take a few top clubs to make the decision that they will end their season just prior to tryouts and their teams will skip State Cup for the whole thing to unravel.


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## mkg68 (Feb 26, 2018)

The "State" in "State Cup" has always bugged me, too. It's really Southern California, there is no statewide competition. 

Just like the "O" in "ODP" stands for "Olympic". (eyeroll). Also the "D" as there is no development.


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## espola (Feb 26, 2018)

mkg68 said:


> The "State" in "State Cup" has always bugged me, too. It's really Southern California, there is no statewide competition.
> 
> Just like the "O" in "ODP" stands for "Olympic". (eyeroll). Also the "D" as there is no development.


Imagine how many complaints there would be if the opening rounds were in Fresno or Redding.

There were some supposed "State Championships" foisted on the youth soccer public a few years ago, with entrants from both north and south.  It turned out to be the CSL champion against an equivalent league from the Bay Area. 

Cal South was created after after it was obvious that all of California was too big in area and population to administer, especially for things like State tournaments.  Other states are split as well, such as Texas, New York, and (for reasons I don't understand, since the whole state is small than Cal South) Ohio.


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## soccermama213 (Feb 26, 2018)

The other down side to this is certain areas or regions would have weaker teams than others. South OC for instance would be stacked with high level teams and high desert or further away areas for example may have less teams or lower level. So you wouldn’t have exactly even competition . Or you may have one dominant area team that will blow everyone out


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## outside! (Feb 26, 2018)

At least now there are alternatives to Lancaster. It used to be that everyone had to go to Lancaster or Apple Valley. Now the older players (who travel more anyway at the upper levels) get to play closer to the coast.


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## timbuck (Feb 26, 2018)

soccermama213 said:


> The other down side to this is certain areas or regions would have weaker teams than others. South OC for instance would be stacked with high level teams and high desert or further away areas for example may have less teams or lower level. So you wouldn’t have exactly even competition . Or you may have one dominant area team that will blow everyone out


Don't count out some of those teams from further North and East.  President's 04 had 8 of the sweet 16 from outside of OC.  Some big, strong, fast girls out there.  They played decent soccer too. Maybe not connecting 10 passes in a row, but nothing different than you see from an OC team that has one or 2 dominant physical players.
Surprised to see Coachella Valley lose yesterday.


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## dreamz (Feb 26, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Does anybody know what it would take for CalSouth to consider any changes? Who at CalSouth would be the person to reach out to on this?  Would a petition help them to look at changes?  Do they only listen to club presidents?  League Presidents?  Do they talk to end users / families?
> Do they even know that 90% of participants (players, parents, coaches) think that the current format of State Cup in CA is terrible?  (I totally made up that 90% number.  But there isn't one person I've ever spoken with about the current format that doesn't have some type of criticism).  Or do they see that participation is even or up year over year, so why change things?
> I don't have the venues that much.  There are a lot of teams from LA and Central Coast that make the trek down this way.  I've been to Lancaster, Norco, Galway Downs and Oceanside.  While I'd love to play at the Great Park, I realize you can't please everyone when we live in an area where traffic stinks and land is scarce.  (Heck - lots of people on this board drive to Vegas in January for Vegas Cup too).
> My biggest issue with State Cup is the timing.  I'd like to see it played before the end of December (before teams break up) or in the Spring (after new teams are formed and have been together for a bit).
> ...


None of the states you list are remotely as large as Cal South itself.  Those formats wouldn't work in Southern CA. Every state does the State Cup portion differently. There is no one model that would work for everyone.
Two things to remember. This is all about a massive revenue source for Cal South and as soon as you cut out everyone under the age of 12 they all complain that they aren't getting to be part of State Cup. It's really the only thing that all of the teams from all of the leagues get to play in so why is that so bad?
Second - State Cup will always play in Lancaster because Cal South is financially invested in that complex. If I remember correctly, it's the only venue where the keep all of the parking revenue too. 
The tack a $2 parking fee on to the other venues but they keep all (or most) of the fees collected in Lancaster.


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## espola (Feb 26, 2018)

dreamz said:


> None of the states you list are remotely as large as Cal South itself.  Those formats wouldn't work in Southern CA. Every state does the State Cup portion differently. There is no one model that would work for everyone.
> Two things to remember. This is all about a massive revenue source for Cal South and as soon as you cut out everyone under the age of 12 they all complain that they aren't getting to be part of State Cup. It's really the only thing that all of the teams from all of the leagues get to play in so why is that so bad?
> Second - State Cup will always play in Lancaster because Cal South is financially invested in that complex. If I remember correctly, it's the only venue where the keep all of the parking revenue too.
> The tack a $2 parking fee on to the other venues but they keep all (or most) of the fees collected in Lancaster.


I never heard  that before.


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## soccermama213 (Feb 26, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Don't count out some of those teams from further North and East.  President's 04 had 8 of the sweet 16 from outside of OC.  Some big, strong, fast girls out there.  They played decent soccer too. Maybe not connecting 10 passes in a row, but nothing different than you see from an OC team that has one or 2 dominant physical players.
> Surprised to see Coachella Valley lose yesterday.


I wasn’t counting out any area just making up a scenario. Certain areas have better teams then others or maybe more competition in Closer proximity.


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## timbuck (Feb 26, 2018)

I bet it could absolutely work.
Here's my half-thought out, back of a napkin plan:
League season ends by November 12.
You have the opening weekend for all of Youngers - National, Presidents, Governors and Mayors the weekend of November 18/19.  Use Lancaster, Apple Valley, Galway Downs, Oceanside, Polo Fields, Great Park, Stub Hub Center, LAFC Stadium, LA Coliseum, Rose Bowl, Qualcomm, Local College stadiums, Local High Schools and any other field that is used during league play if needed.
Limit each group to 25 brackets of 4 teams..  
First come, first served and no play down petitions.  Make some teams play up.  Make all Flight 1 and Gold teams play in National Cup.
Here's how many teams were accepted into the respective contests for girls this year:






November 18/19 -  Pool Play-  Groups of 4 teams
Take a break the following weekend for  Thanksgiving.
December 2- Round 64 for 2004-2006 Governors and Presidents 
December 3 - Round 32 for Mayors, Governors and Presidents in the morning and Round 16 for all groups in the afternoon.
December 9- Quarter Final (8 teams) and Semi-Final - 4 teams
December 10 - Championship Games
December  16/17 -  In case of rainouts and things need to get moved.
December 18-January 17 -  Mandatory Break 
January 20- February 10th -  Tryout period for all clubs


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 26, 2018)

We just finished with our first State Cup experience and, before seeing this thread, had thought about posting about our experience as first timers. 

From this forum I have seen most of the posts talking about Presidents division and/or National Cup, so I am not sure if the experience we just had in Governors Division differs or not. 

We come from the Central Coast, and traveled to Norco the first weekend. The facility was great, the area is nice. Having to pay for parking each day, especially after already paying to enter the tournament and all the other costs of traveling, does stink a bit but it is not that horrible. 

The following weekend we got to experience Lancaster...! The winds were horrible and really affected game play. The area is not that great/sketchy at best. But again, our team survived. Lancaster would not be my 1st choice of location to travel to, though. 

This past weekend we traveled to Galway. Our team had already been there for a tournament earlier this year, and really liked the facility/area. 

The "one and done" is hard though, especially when some teams travel over 4 hours (one way) to get there. 


Overall, we had a great first time experience with State Cup. Our pool was fairly evenly matched up and the teams we played from there on out were too. It was really neat seeing our girls play against teams we probably would have never played against if the bracket draw format was done any differently.

A break in between weekends would not be so bad though. Would allow more time to recover from the traveling and prepare for the next weekend of play.


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## Multi Sport (Feb 26, 2018)

Rework SC/NC? For as long as I can recall parents have complained. Nothing will change regardless of how many post you make on the forum. 

Rather be happy that your kid has the opportunity to play, travel and make memories. Is it convenient? Rarely.  Is it fun? Usually. Is it expensive? Can be. My kids have played in the rain, snow, wind and heat competing in these tournaments and all of them agree that they would not change a thing. 

Enjoy the journey...


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## MWN (Feb 26, 2018)

Its called "State Cup" because California is broken into two "State Associations" given its size and populations: Cal South and Cal North, which in the eyes of U.S. Youth Soccer are two states. 

Cal South is constantly tweaking the program to maximize field usage and use facilities that are large enough to support the State Cup experience.  Before you all suggest playing at parks and high schools, etc., appreciate that Cal South does a few things that most tournaments don't, such as provide medical and employee referee coordinators.  Between U9-U14 (youngers) you also have 3 different sized fields with at least 2 different sized goals, tournament directors/staff with the power to make decisions at each facility.  In an ideal world, Cal South would prefer to have 1 large facility and not be spread out among 12.

As much as we parents hate driving 3-4 hours to attend a State Cup match, eating at some sketchy pizza joint and staying in hotels on hard beds, our kids absolutely love it.  They really don't mind the drive (they sleep through half of it and play games on their devices the rest of the trip), they enjoy eating with their teammates and the experience.  Remember, this is for them not you.


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## mirage (Feb 26, 2018)

Riggins said:


> This year, once again, has me thinking that State Cup is just ridiculous. Why do we take everyone of one age group and have them all drive out to a single site? All of Cal South B06 headed to Lancaster for a weekend. Then, even worse, if you advance you get to head back to Lancaster ...................That round could be at the bigger locations like Lancaster, Silver Lakes, Galloway, or the OC Great Park. Finally, the State Championship.....


Every year, some new parent posts something very similar to this.  Having been around here for 6+ years between the original and the current board, I've read countless threads to "redo State/National Cup" stories.  As you've experienced, nothing has changed, other than CalSouth has added new venues like Silverlakes and Oceanside complexes.

I recall 0ur kids playing in snow during February National Cup in lovely Lancaster as well it was so warm that it felt like a nice spring day at the same venue.

As years go on, and if your lucky enough to have your kid still playing, the awful Jan~Mar dates change to April~May dates.  Venues also becomes better in that its either at Silverlakes, Oceanside, or Oxnard.  Its my understanding that OC Great Park is even more part of the venue since the expansion (they've been using the 4 original field for few years now).  I even heard a rumor that the National Cup final games will be played in the OCGP grandstand stadium.

From SoCal, if are very lucky and win a lot, you get to goto other venue for regional playoff in other state in June and the ultimate National finals in July - typically somewhere humid and not great.

Clearly, one can organize, petition and run-for Calsouth position or try to impact how best to run their tournaments - good luck and you have support of most of us on this forum, along with thousands of younger's parents from SLO to Chula Vista.  Many teams in Central CA simply don't bother due to distances.

...But, for me, like mulitsports, have come to appreciate the whole experience with the right attitude and expectations.  I now look back to those 30mph sustained winds with gust up to 45~50mph, where a punted ball actually travels less than 5 feet, as "remember when..." with our kids. 

You see, it simply is not important enough to get worked up about, when I consider the big picture for me so I enjoy it for what it is.  YMMV......


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## carla hinkle (Feb 26, 2018)

I was looking at the Cal North website and I'm pretty sure they organize it differently...youngers (U9-U12) play in December, I think? It wouldn't solve all the problems but at least the little kids would be done before tryouts?


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## Josep (Feb 26, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Don't count out some of those teams from further North and East.  President's 04 had 8 of the sweet 16 from outside of OC.  Some big, strong, fast girls out there.  They played decent soccer too. Maybe not connecting 10 passes in a row, but nothing different than you see from an OC team that has one or 2 dominant physical players.
> Surprised to see Coachella Valley lose yesterday.



TB, what age group is this?  I tend to see most of the eligible OC teams in national cup if the option is there.  So there is a larger higher ratio of non OC teams playing Presidents.


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## SPChamp1 (Feb 26, 2018)

I don’t have any particular issue with the distance to venues. Where we live in the LA/LB Area, even the trips to SD are manageable for our family. The one and done formats absolutely suck when teams have to travel extreme distances. I am more frustrated with the fact that the hotels in the areas near the fields jack up their prices on State Cup weekends. I’ve stayed in Lancaster at the Residence Inn visiting a friend one weekend not during State Cup and I paid $109 before taxes. During State Cup that same hotel was $189 before taxes. 

If Lancaster is a “right of passage” for CalSouth players, then negotiate reasonable hotel rates and then negotiate kick backs with the Local Businesses when families patronize the businesses. You’d probably get more people to stay overnight even with the one and done format. it helps the local economy, which could drive more money into the facility to expand and/or improve the playing surfaces.


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