# Don't have pride for your kids



## oh canada (Nov 22, 2019)

From _Psychology Today_...

One of the ways I try to help parents make this distinction is by *comparing pride to admiration*. While pride refers to a feeling we have for someone as they relate to us, admiration exists independently of this connection.

When parents over-involve themselves with their child’s activities or achievements, they can actually act as a barrier between the child and his or her unique experience. Very often, parents connect to their child in ways that are unintentionally intrusive or possessive. This can be a hard pattern to catch on to, because something like coaching or attending every basketball game your child plays in sounds like a good thing. However, there’s a difference between watching the games and emotionally involving yourself in every win or loss. Parents who shout at the ref from the sidelines or whose mood depends on their child’s performance are treating the game as if they’re playing it themselves.

Parents should try to be attuned to how caught up they feel in their child’s achievements and wary of the times when they cross the line from appreciating their child as a separate person and feeling like the child is almost a part of them—that the child’s achievements are their achievements. For example, when a child is drawing, there’s a big difference between the parent saying, “Look at all the shapes you’re making. I really like the blue triangles. Can you show me how you drew that?” and saying, “Wow, that’s so beautiful. You’re mommy’s little artist. I’m gonna show everybody what you drew for me.” I’ve talked about the problems with offering a child false praise, but one major issue is that it can make a child feel like the achievement isn’t their own—like it’s really all about the parent. This can have a negative effect on the child. I’ve known several kids who’ve actually dropped out of activities they used to love—a sport they excelled at or art forms they were involved in—just because they felt their parent had taken over.

Another problem with pride is that it can come off as pressure. As parents, we can be demanding and critical or praising and prideful, but both sides of the coin can have the same effect; they can make our child feel pressured and disconnected from their own undertakings and accomplishments. Children may feel they have to achieve in order to win their parent’s love. They may feel the added pressure of the parent’s own expectations and how they reflect on their parent.

Parents don’t intentionally do this to hurt their child. Sometimes, they offer praise and build-up in an effort to be encouraging. Perhaps, they didn’t feel supported by their own parents as kids, and they have a tendency to try and compensate. Parents over-involvement with their child’s accomplishments can also stem from parents not feeling good about themselves. They may turn to their children to provide them with self-esteem. They may have a need for their child to accomplish things for which they never had the opportunity or support in an attempt to be connected to the accomplishment.  

Parents can catch on to ways they may be over-connecting  by noticing when they feel extra attached to their child’s interests or are starting to have that feeling that the child is an extension of them. They may see their child as reflecting on them and feel either overly critical and embarrassed or prideful and accomplished. Children often feel hurt when they don’t feel seen by their parents. When parents only see themselves and their hopes and dreams in their child, they’re robbing themselves of the real joys of knowing their child, and the child is missing the essential experience of being known.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Nov 22, 2019)

Validation that it's OK to tell my kids "I'm not proud of you" on the car ride home!


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## Futbol30 (Nov 22, 2019)

Regardless of whether parents agree with this or not, this was an interesting read and really has me thinking about my relationship with my kids ... thanks for sharing @oh canada


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## Soccer Cat (Nov 22, 2019)

I know a couple of parents I’d really like to have read this...


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## way up (Nov 22, 2019)

oh canada said:


> From _Psychology Today_...
> 
> One of the ways I try to help parents make this distinction is by *comparing pride to admiration*. While pride refers to a feeling we have for someone as they relate to us, admiration exists independently of this connection.
> 
> ...


Some parents may go to the extreme with pressure on their kids, but I feel pressure is good. I want my kids to handle pressure and actually, I want them to enjoy and get excited about it. Handling pressure well is how you cope with life. I know what worked for me as a kid and I wish my parents were half as involved as I am with my own in their school and their additional activities. My pressure on my girls is on the work though not game performance. So long as she tries her hardest which she normally does as she does not like to lose, I never give her grief after and we have a cool off period after every game where we only talk if she wants to.

There is a balance to all of this. Pressure is good, but the parent has to be mindful of not making it negative is all. Winning is very important, but not at all costs and not to the point where you let it make these challenges in life too stressful to be fun. I do want my kid to appreciate and work hard for all the work I put into her club soccer demands. Any kid in club socccer is very fortunate to gain the access, so reciprocal hard work is mandatory in my house.

Now regarding pride and the parent's involvement. Sport audiences get wrapped up and emotional when they watch their teams. I know several people whose moods change when their favorite football, soccer, or baseball teams lose or win. I certainly don't feel the way I do, because my child is an extension of me. I just know how hard the team works and I have a lot invested in time, money, and LOVE for the team and my daugher. I like seeing their hard work turn into w's, but I do also know to not let it ruin my day or get nasty when we lose. Again, I apply a little pressure to train and learn after losses though. I never want losing to become normal or o.k. It's o.k. to lose, but it's not o.k. to get comfortable doing it.

My oldest gets straight A's with several honor's classes. I encourage her like my club soccer girl to do so. I reward her for being in honors and she gets double rewards for straight A's. She is not an extension of me with this. I was a fool in high school, but she is not making up for me. Her performance affects my mood too, but only, because I want her to be successful and happy in life. This goes for the club soccer child too. I think overall I know what works for my kids who I am responsible for in life.

I would just also add as far as so cal. soccer clubs in the 8 to 10 year old levels, I've not seen this parental rage and line crossing. I've seen yelling at refs., but you see that in all sports. We parents just happen to be very close to the game and refs. compared to bleacher sports. If you want to see pressure and potential connection issues, go watch "Friday Night Tikes" on Netflix. I'm sure those who agree with this initial post opinion would consider it child abuse.

Sure, some can be over involved, but I see things much different than this opinion. We parents are basically our kid's agents and know what's best for them and that's why we're involved. It's not pride for me nor is it admiration! My kid shows up and gets to play a sport she loves while I drive and pay for everything. I want to admire her performance from her hard work and that is what I enjoy seeing the most. I also like to see our team develop and win to show that they are getting good training and skills from their club team. People need mentors and kids need parents for guidance. A select few parents may just want to learn to learn to tone it down a notch and keep it fun even with a loss. I hate losing and I want my kid to hate it too, but I want her to accept it and move on fast. No point in losing twice!


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## Dirtnap (Dec 2, 2019)

Soccer Cat said:


> I know a couple of parents I’d really like to have read this...


Just a couple? lol that would be my handout at the beginning of the year.


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## Luis Andres (Dec 2, 2019)

way up said:


> Some parents may go to the extreme with pressure on their kids, but I feel pressure is good. I want my kids to handle pressure and actually, I want them to enjoy and get excited about it. Handling pressure well is how you cope with life. I know what worked for me as a kid and I wish my parents were half as involved as I am with my own in their school and their additional activities. My pressure on my girls is on the work though not game performance. So long as she tries her hardest which she normally does as she does not like to lose, I never give her grief after and we have a cool off period after every game where we only talk if she wants to.
> 
> There is a balance to all of this. Pressure is good, but the parent has to be mindful of not making it negative is all. Winning is very important, but not at all costs and not to the point where you let it make these challenges in life too stressful to be fun. I do want my kid to appreciate and work hard for all the work I put into her club soccer demands. Any kid in club socccer is very fortunate to gain the access, so reciprocal hard work is mandatory in my house.
> 
> ...


Winner...


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## Fact (Dec 2, 2019)

Luis Andres said:


> Winner...


This would be the perfect use for the Dumb button.  @way up thanks for joining the Dumb club with Luis..."So long as ..... I never give her grief."  Get your own life and stop living through a child.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Fact said:


> This would be the perfect use for the Dumb button.  @way up thanks for joining the Dumb club with Luis..."So long as ..... I never give her grief."  Get your own life and stop living through a child.


LOL! Way to keep it classy Fact! Yes, I expect her to try her hardest. You got me. Welcome to the ignore club!


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## Fact (Dec 2, 2019)

way up said:


> LOL! Way to keep it classy Fact! Yes, I expect her to try her hardest. You got me. Welcome to the ignore club!


Expecting your child to try her best is one thing, but giving grief takes it to a new classless level.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Fact said:


> Expecting your child to try her best is one thing, but giving grief takes it to a new classless level.


Here is what I wrote Fact. 

" So long as she tries her hardest which she normally does as she does not like to lose, I never give her grief after and we have a cool off period after every game where we only talk if she wants to. "

How do you comprehend this any other way than I expect her to try her hardest and I NEVER GIVER HER GRIEF AFTER (meaning after a game) and we have a cool off period after every game??


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## Fact (Dec 2, 2019)

way up said:


> Here is what I wrote Fact.
> 
> " So long as she tries her hardest which she normally does as she does not like to lose, I never give her grief after and we have a cool off period after every game where we only talk if she wants to. "
> 
> How do you comprehend this any other way than I expect her to try her hardest and I NEVER GIVER HER GRIEF AFTER (meaning after a game) and we have a cool off period after every game??


What happens when she is not "normal" and does not try hard.  Love that I am in your head too.  Wait, I thought you put me on ignore. LOL!


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## Grace T. (Dec 2, 2019)

Fact said:


> What happens when she is not "normal" and does not try hard.  Love that I am in your head too.  Wait, I thought you put me on ignore. LOL!


Yeah, this is also the illustration of why the pendulum has swung too hard over from the boomers raising their kids and the 90s AYSO days of everyone wins a trophy/everyone plays together.  They are kids.  They don't have emotional regulation.  Sometimes, they are going to be sleepy, or not feeling well, or just not into soccer, and don't want to try hard.  But we've turned soccer into a job, where kids are expected to perform every time, regardless of their emotional/physical/mental wellbeing.  That's something which is expected of an adult, not a child. 

Way up also brings up straight As.  That's another thing that's changed.  Kids are now expected to bring in straight As.  They can't make mistakes.  They can't have an off week.  God forbid a crisis intervenes that breaks up the straight As, whether a mental health issue, illness or death in the family.  Not accusing Way up of demanding the straight As, but when did this become the expectation academically even for just above average kids?...straight As should be something (if it's a competitive program) which only the geniuses of the geniuses should be pulling in school (and they'll have other issues to boot and should probably be moved up anyways to something that's more of a challenge), not the expectation for regular kids college bound (and especially not those that are also athletes and putting in the time there).

I don't want it to go back to the days where everyone was declared a winner.  I think competition and a little pressure are healthy.  I kick my son in the butt when he isn't performing academically or on the field.  But I also think by putting all the pressure we are giving kids these days, we are also robbing them of their childhood, and worse we are taking it from them younger and younger (e.g. competitive soccer for five year olds) and that can't be good either.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Fact said:


> What happens when she is not "normal" and does not try hard.  Love that I am in your head too.  Wait, I thought you put me on ignore. LOL!


OMG! Like if she is sick or something or has an injury? Yikes, back to ignore Fact. You're in my head like a child is when they don't understand something. I am very balanced with my kid, but I expect her to try her hardest. You obviously missed the point. My emphasis on her soccer is in training and effort not performance. Development and hard work lead to good performance, SO I DON'T GIVE HER GRIEF IF SHE MAKES ERRORS OR STRUGGLES AT TIMES. My grief on her is working a little harder with me on whatever I see she needs work on. I expect her to work hard and understand if better results are not in her cards.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, this is also the illustration of why the pendulum has swung too hard over from the boomers raising their kids and the 90s AYSO days of everyone wins a trophy/everyone plays together.  They are kids.  They don't have emotional regulation.  Sometimes, they are going to be sleepy, or not feeling well, or just not into soccer, and don't want to try hard.  But we've turned soccer into a job, where kids are expected to perform every time, regardless of their emotional/physical/mental wellbeing.  That's something which is expected of an adult, not a child.
> 
> Way up also brings up straight As.  That's another thing that's changed.  Kids are now expected to bring in straight As.  They can't make mistakes.  They can't have an off week.  God forbid a crisis intervenes that breaks up the straight As, whether a mental health issue, illness or death in the family.  Not accusing Way up of demanding the straight As, but when did this become the expectation academically even for just above average kids?...straight As should be something (if it's a competitive program) which only the geniuses of the geniuses should be pulling in school (and they'll have other issues to boot and should probably be moved up anyways to something that's more of a challenge), not the expectation for regular kids college bound (and especially not those that are also athletes and putting in the time there).
> 
> I don't want it to go back to the days where everyone was declared a winner.  I think competition and a little pressure are healthy.  I kick my son in the butt when he isn't performing academically or on the field.  But I also think by putting all the pressure we are giving kids these days, we are also robbing them of their childhood, and worse we are taking it from them younger and younger (e.g. competitive soccer for five year olds) and that can't be good either.


Grace, there is a balance to all this like I said. I treat my girls like I would if they were boys. My style may not be for everybody and I probably also reward my girls too much for getting straight A's and working hard in soccer. That I am guilty of. My mom would call it bribing, but I see it as learning that hard work pays off. In the end, they are my girls and I am responsible for them in life. It's my job to keep them off the streets, confident, and ready to take on the challenge of life and that is my number one job in life, so I'd rather error on the side of being a little demanding rather than puppy dogs and ice cream. My opinion is the proof is in the pudding and I am so proud of my girls! 

I see such a positive experience in girl's club soccer out there and it's natural for parents to go through the stages and process of raising competitive soccer kids. I do recommend a book called "Happy Feet" for parents though. You want them to enjoy and cherish the challenge and pressure and it's impossible to do that if you can't handle losing. Losing is part of the game, but it means you need to work harder in my house. Good luck everyone! We can have a discussion without calling each other "dumb" by the way.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Not saying you called anyone dumb Grace. That's for the ignored individual.


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## futboldad1 (Dec 2, 2019)

This is a must-read post, oh Canada.

It's very much connected to this the families we've been on teams with over the years. All of us love our kids, but part of it is realizing their true level. My DDs when u-littles were on SD Surf top teams which were full of lil unicorns and each year certain kids would get bumped from the roster after a season where their parents had spent most of it complaining about their playing time, not starting, or position. I would say to them "well now your DD will get to play more which is what it's about". But no, they said it was because the coach had special relationships with certain families or was an idiot.... Truth was, on the top top teams it's about results and a roster kids that truly are elite or close to elite level and if kids were not that special level then the fit wasn't there. Yes, there are some coaches with relationships with certain families but more often than not that particular kid is a star. ...doesn't make it right, but it is what it is. Sometimes that kid is the one who has 40-yd-dash record in the county, sometimes they happen to come from a rich family, sometimes a dirt poor family. Always new kids wanting to take your DDs spot if DA/ECNL/USWNT/D1 is your goal....it just comes with the territory. Sometimes that's the right environment sometimes and slight drop in competition is the best thing for YOUR DDs HAPPINESS.....

My younger one has always been a rarely subbed starter but my older daughter was playing less and less with each season and I was able to see why - new ballers were joining each year and she wasn't dominating like she was when younger. We ended up moving from SD due to my work but when I spoke to coach about this before we left I asked him and he said she had fallen behind in several areas. Some coaches are asshats about this, or lie, but he explained clearly...I spoke with her about these shortcomings and she knew it, I wish I'd listened to her more rather than feed into something unrealistic and putting pressure on her..... I never thought I was doing this but I was.  It turns out Around the same time she got a bad concussion and when she recovered she wanted to try and new sport which she's loving. Had SHE wanted to play soccer we'd have joined whatever team she wanted - whether it was a weaker DA or ECNL team than her old one, or even just a regular "flight 1" SCDSL team or similar....she is going to play HS though which will be a blast for her.....and me!!!!!!

I apologize for the rambling post.....hopefully most it makes sense......having been through this the psychology article above really hit me....my advice is don't feed into the culture of forcing your daughter to believe she's going to be a star, and she deserves to be a star. Just work hard and accept their are successes and setbacks, it's how you react to them....your kid might be cut from one team and join an even better one, or they may drop down a level and shine....Support your kid and try to really let them know that they can try to be stars but don't NEED to be stars, and just because they aren't necessarily good enough for certain teams doesn't mean they aren't wonderful young ladies and capable of so much in life and, even in soccer.....that's enough from me today back to my 13 year old who is perfectly healthily convinced she's going to be the next Mia Hamm......


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## foreveryoung (Dec 2, 2019)

This conversation made me think of this 3 minute video.  Sums it all up. 

Every Parent Needs to Know this One Simple Truth


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## Mic Nificent (Dec 2, 2019)

Does everyone here approach their kids academics the same way as far as getting them the best tutors, matching practice and game time with learning and studying as well as a balanced social life?


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## Mic Nificent (Dec 2, 2019)

Seems like every parent wants their kid to be the goat. Does anyone hope n guide their kid to use soccer as a tool for a higher education or to become a better person etc., rather than hoping they play soccer to be the next Messi or Lloyd?


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Mic Nificent said:


> Seems like every parent wants their kid to be the goat. Does anyone hope n guide their kid to use soccer as a tool for a higher education or to become a better person etc., rather than hoping they play soccer to be the next Messi or Lloyd?


My goals with soccer lead to my girl being a well rounded person and to higher education. I truly think there will be a point where she may have to decide if her time would be better spent with more academic/work development rather than club soccer in high school. My girl has a lot of potential, but she is not a goat. Also, I would like to add a preface to my demands of her to try her hardest. She can quit club anytime. She can join AYSO or other sport anytime she wants. She tells me what she wants and I help her follow that path. Part of the pressure and stress in all this is in club, you have to earn your spot.

The ultimate pressure on our kids in club is to make the team. I'm the one that has to tell my 8 year old that she was not chosen to stay on her team. She would cry a lot more about that than me explaining that we have work to do to maintain her spot. Life is hard. Nothing is guaranteed. It's up to you to be relevant and earn your status and position in life. It's up to the parent to help prepare their kids for real life which is not cheap or easy in California. Some will be ready and some will not. I'm preparing my kids to be relevant and to be ready. Others can raise theirs how they want. We'll see what works in due time.

Club soccer is competitive. It is leveled. Not everyone gets playtime. It costs a lot of time and money from the parents. There is pressure and challenge all the way around club soccer for the kid and the parent, period! I kind of like it, because our kids get stronger and more focused. It's not for everyone. People can say whatever they want about pride and pressure on the kids from the parents, but the real pressure is there are tryouts and different flights. Just like there are managers, directors, and executives in business. I would just say the healthiest idea you can provide or try to embellish to your kids is to look at pressure and obstacles as challenges and hurdles in life you must jump over. If you let them stress you out, you're losing the battle imo. If you prepare, work hard, and eventually jump over them no matter what they are, you win the battle regardless.


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## Grace T. (Dec 2, 2019)

Mic Nificent said:


> Does everyone here approach their kids academics the same way as far as getting them the best tutors, matching practice and game time with learning and studying as well as a balanced social life?


My kid's (private, high performing elementary school doesn't go beyond 5th grade) class is in the middle of the 5th grade freakouts.  Kids are in the middle of taking the ISEE placement exams.  Most kids have taken some tutoring (at least for the parents in the know...some were caught unawares), some extensive.  It's a god awfully hard exam much worse than the PSATs when I was growing up or even the LSAT (I finished the LSAT...not sure I could finish the ISEE on time and many kids don't).  Parents are obsessing about grades (even those going into magnet or charter elementary schools, since honors placements are determined by grades) and the fact that our teacher is relatively old fashioned, hard, and doesn't believe everyone (given this is a class where 75% of them are rated gifted IQ or higher) deserves an A.  One family sends their kid straight from class to CLC until dinner time.  Another does Kumon, followed by dinner, followed by swimming until 9.  One family freaked out when they found out their school frowned on not having a sport.  My son on weekdays goes home, hits the books straight away, club soccer til 7, dinner, shower, half hour down time, then final review for tests the next day.  It's crazy....the biggest advice I'm giving up and coming parents now is if you are going to do the private school route, do a private school that is all the way to high school and if you are going to do public don't start in private.

My favorite advice comes from Dr. Paul Jenkins.  Yeah we wear hats as cops, teachers, coaches, cooks, disciplinarians, nurses, etc. for our kids.  Yeah we want to enforce discipline and get them ready.  But our primary goal is to love them no matter what and even if.   To the extent everything else gets in the way, it must bend, because ultimately we can't ensure the success of our kids...that has to come from themselves....we can just point them the right way.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> My kid's (private, high performing elementary school doesn't go beyond 5th grade) class is in the middle of the 5th grade freakouts.  Kids are in the middle of taking the ISEE placement exams.  Most kids have taken some tutoring (at least for the parents in the know...some were caught unawares), some extensive.  It's a god awfully hard exam much worse than the PSATs when I was growing up or even the LSAT (I finished the LSAT...not sure I could finish the ISEE on time and many kids don't).  Parents are obsessing about grades (even those going into magnet or charter elementary schools, since honors placements are determined by grades) and the fact that our teacher is relatively old fashioned, hard, and doesn't believe everyone (given this is a class where 75% of them are rated gifted IQ or higher) deserves an A.  One family sends their kid straight from class to CLC until dinner time.  Another does Kumon, followed by dinner, followed by swimming until 9.  One family freaked out when they found out their school frowned on not having a sport.  My son on weekdays goes home, hits the books straight away, club soccer til 7, dinner, shower, half hour down time, then final review for tests the next day.  It's crazy....the biggest advice I'm giving up and coming parents now is if you are going to do the private school route, do a private school that is all the way to high school and if you are going to do public don't start in private.
> 
> My favorite advice comes from Dr. Paul Jenkins.  Yeah we wear hats as cops, teachers, coaches, cooks, disciplinarians, nurses, etc. for our kids.  Yeah we want to enforce discipline and get them ready.  But our primary goal is to love them no matter what and even if.   To the extent everything else gets in the way, it must bend, because ultimately we can't ensure the success of our kids...that has to come from themselves....we can just point them the right way.


We can love them no matter what and do our jobs as parents and guide them to prepare, train, read, listen, and develop both academically and in sports at the same time. LOVE IS ABSOLUTE ABSOLUTELY ALL OF THE TIME! and it is that love that makes us parents do things that are hard like discipline, plan, and say no. It is hard to say no. It is hard to encourage and make them do what they may not want to, but if we didn't, they would not brush their teeth, go to bed at a decent hour, or get off the damn computer and t.v. I don't need a Dr. to tell me how to raise my kids as my family has been doing it for centuries with pretty good results. Every kid is different and more tolerant of different things. One thing I kind of think about is how soft each generation gets and how much tougher it gets for those softer generations.

I read something like 59% of American adults have less than $1k of savings as so many are driving nice cars and eating out 3 or 4 nights a week? How do kids learn how to budget, work, and plan?? It's related to this subject of expectations and guidance imo. I don't think the problem is parents are too hard. I think it's they're too soft, but hey, maybe it's more opportunity for those who are relevant and work hard which is what I'm pushing to my kids. It's worked for centuries for my family! Not trying to be mean, but I really see this country going soft at a time we have enormous debt and insolvency. There will be enormous wealth diversity and so many hands out in the future imo. Well, I can tell you this now. Those hands out won't be my kids if what's worked for centuries continues working! LOL, good luck and love is the most important thing. I get it! I just see love as doing the harder things for what's best for my kids and their academics and sports.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

way up said:


> We can love them no matter what and do our jobs as parents and guide them to prepare, train, read, listen, and develop both academically and in sports at the same time. LOVE IS ABSOLUTE ABSOLUTELY ALL OF THE TIME! and it is that love that makes us parents do things that are hard like discipline, plan, and say no. It is hard to say no. It is hard to encourage and make them do what they may not want to, but if we didn't, they would not brush their teeth, go to bed at a decent hour, or get off the damn computer and t.v. I don't need a Dr. to tell me how to raise my kids as my family has been doing it for centuries with pretty good results. Every kid is different and more tolerant of different things. One thing I kind of think about is how soft each generation gets and how much tougher it gets for those softer generations.
> 
> I read something like 59% of American adults have less than $1k of savings as so many are driving nice cars and eating out 3 or 4 nights a week? How do kids learn how to budget, work, and plan?? It's related to this subject of expectations and guidance imo. I don't think the problem is parents are too hard. I think it's they're too soft, but hey, maybe it's more opportunity for those who are relevant and work hard which is what I'm pushing to my kids. It's worked for centuries for my family! Not trying to be mean, but I really see this country going soft at a time we have enormous debt and insolvency. There will be enormous wealth diversity and so many hands out in the future imo. Well, I can tell you this now. Those hands out won't be my kids if what's worked for centuries continues working! LOL, good luck and love is the most important thing. I get it! I just see love as doing the harder things for what's best for my kids and their academics and sports.





Grace T. said:


> My kid's (private, high performing elementary school doesn't go beyond 5th grade) class is in the middle of the 5th grade freakouts.  Kids are in the middle of taking the ISEE placement exams.  Most kids have taken some tutoring (at least for the parents in the know...some were caught unawares), some extensive.  It's a god awfully hard exam much worse than the PSATs when I was growing up or even the LSAT (I finished the LSAT...not sure I could finish the ISEE on time and many kids don't).  Parents are obsessing about grades (even those going into magnet or charter elementary schools, since honors placements are determined by grades) and the fact that our teacher is relatively old fashioned, hard, and doesn't believe everyone (given this is a class where 75% of them are rated gifted IQ or higher) deserves an A.  One family sends their kid straight from class to CLC until dinner time.  Another does Kumon, followed by dinner, followed by swimming until 9.  One family freaked out when they found out their school frowned on not having a sport.  My son on weekdays goes home, hits the books straight away, club soccer til 7, dinner, shower, half hour down time, then final review for tests the next day.  It's crazy....the biggest advice I'm giving up and coming parents now is if you are going to do the private school route, do a private school that is all the way to high school and if you are going to do public don't start in private.
> 
> My favorite advice comes from Dr. Paul Jenkins.  Yeah we wear hats as cops, teachers, coaches, cooks, disciplinarians, nurses, etc. for our kids.  Yeah we want to enforce discipline and get them ready.  But our primary goal is to love them no matter what and even if.   To the extent everything else gets in the way, it must bend, because ultimately we can't ensure the success of our kids...that has to come from themselves....we can just point them the right way.


Life is more competitive and challenging than ever. College is very expensive and we're all in the rat race. It's only going to get harder too, so parents will do all they can to help their kids. To top it off, all of this is business related from club soccer to these doctors and psychologists to education, etc. etc. Then, you may raise fantastic, healthy, loving children only to marry what may not be as fantastic?? You can't ensure success, but you can try and raise strong, confident, and relevant kids.


way up said:


> We can love them no matter what and do our jobs as parents and guide them to prepare, train, read, listen, and develop both academically and in sports at the same time. LOVE IS ABSOLUTE ABSOLUTELY ALL OF THE TIME! and it is that love that makes us parents do things that are hard like discipline, plan, and say no. It is hard to say no. It is hard to encourage and make them do what they may not want to, but if we didn't, they would not brush their teeth, go to bed at a decent hour, or get off the damn computer and t.v. I don't need a Dr. to tell me how to raise my kids as my family has been doing it for centuries with pretty good results. Every kid is different and more tolerant of different things. One thing I kind of think about is how soft each generation gets and how much tougher it gets for those softer generations.
> 
> I read something like 59% of American adults have less than $1k of savings as so many are driving nice cars and eating out 3 or 4 nights a week? How do kids learn how to budget, work, and plan?? It's related to this subject of expectations and guidance imo. I don't think the problem is parents are too hard. I think it's they're too soft, but hey, maybe it's more opportunity for those who are relevant and work hard which is what I'm pushing to my kids. It's worked for centuries for my family! Not trying to be mean, but I really see this country going soft at a time we have enormous debt and insolvency. There will be enormous wealth diversity and so many hands out in the future imo. Well, I can tell you this now. Those hands out won't be my kids if what's worked for centuries continues working! LOL, good luck and love is the most important thing. I get it! I just see love as doing the harder things for what's best for my kids and their academics and sports.



So this is where I try to conclude why it's not pride for my kid's performance or an extension of myself. What I am encouraging and challenging my kids for is ultimately survival for when they are on their own. Mommy and daddy will not always be there. I want independent, successful, and relevant adults as the outcome of all this not for my selfish endeavors, but for my goal of being a parent on the job. I feel like these articles and opinions try to lump in a few bad apples with the general audience of club parents to which I point back to my original opinion, but conclude with the end goal of all of this education and club sports is a healthy, relevant adult ready to take on the challenge of life. I'm not raising snowflakes!


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## Lambchop (Dec 2, 2019)

oh canada said:


> From _Psychology Today_...
> 
> One of the ways I try to help parents make this distinction is by *comparing pride to admiration*. While pride refers to a feeling we have for someone as they relate to us, admiration exists independently of this connection.
> 
> ...


After raising four kids and helping with seven grandchildren, and teaching for thirty-five years, the article has valid points but don't over think the babble . There is no such thing as perfect parenting, and, surprisingly, kids turn out pretty good. Maybe an article on what happens to children who get no attention from their parents would be more timely.  Enjoy your children and grandchildren, they grow up very fast.


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## way up (Dec 2, 2019)

Lambchop said:


> After raising four kids and helping with seven grandchildren, and teaching for thirty-five years, the article has valid points but don't over think the babble . There is no such thing as perfect parenting, and, surprisingly, kids turn out pretty good. Maybe an article on what happens to children who get no attention from their parents would be more timely.  Enjoy your children and grandchildren, they grow up very fast.


I like this point and we all have different situations. Every kid is different and every time period is different. To keep this pithy, I will merely say I cherish every moment on the field and in our truck on the way to our soccer events and I make sure she enjoys it. I hope everyone does this. Don't ruin this experience for them. We will look back at this time as our best times. There is a balance and I would just add that you may miss many a great moment in their games if you just focus on the score. I just thought about a few at dinner where my daughter took a hard damn shot to the stomach and didn't even blink where last year she'd be on the ground crying. That just might be my most proud moment, because it showed she knew her job and stayed focused. I just shed a tear, so I love the message here. Cherish these moments!


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## Fact (Dec 2, 2019)

way up said:


> I just thought about a few at dinner where my daughter took a hard damn shot to the stomach and didn't even blink where last year she'd be on the ground crying. That just might be my most proud moment, because it showed she knew her job and stayed focused.


My God. Another Luis.


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## Grace T. (Dec 2, 2019)

Lambchop said:


> After raising four kids and helping with seven grandchildren, and teaching for thirty-five years, the article has valid points but don't over think the babble . There is no such thing as perfect parenting, and, surprisingly, kids turn out pretty good. Maybe an article on what happens to children who get no attention from their parents would be more timely.  Enjoy your children and grandchildren, they grow up very fast.


In the current generation up and coming there's a real split between parents that don't care and parents that are obsessively helicoptering/tiggering their kids.  It doesn't follow a neat divide, but is generally more blue than red, more upperclass than working class, more educated than non, more urban than rural (though the generalization falls apart even if you watch something like Friday Night Tykes).  Helicoptering and tiggering are different but they both come from the same place: a fear of failure or harm (sometimes irrationally based on the data).  As a result, both neglect and overcaring simulataneously seem to be rampant problems in our society (and it's not just high performers in sports or academics...spend a few moments with the special needs lobby and you see it too).

My pet theory (and I have nothing to back this up) is that it's rooted in people having fewer kids.  When people had larger families one would probably be successful and one would be the blacksheep--- every family had one.  But with fewer eggs in the basket, people worry more about the eggs and have the time and money to do it (in a family of 6 if little Billy is failing math and needs a tutor, little Billy might be out of luck).


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## oh canada (Dec 3, 2019)

So happy that this thread has generated a lot of discussion and provoked thought.  After all, our kids' well-being is top priority.  I am an educator (20+ years) and I've seen a lot change in that time with parents in the classroom.  I also see this on the soccer field (and other sports too).  I am by no means a perfect parent, nor have all the answers to parenting, but thought adding a few things I've noticed through the years would be of further help to those interested...

1)  Parents now are definitely more involved with their kids and trying to influence their decisions, their experiences and their development.  20 years ago, parents were much more willing to accept the path that their kids were choosing, that teachers were recommending based upon their expertise, or that fate was providing.  This happens more in the middle/upper class school districts and likewise at those soccer (and other sport) clubs too.  Cops, Firefighters, cooks and other teachers are much more willing to defer....middle management, white-collar corporate types in middle/upper income groups are much more "involved" in controlling their kids childhood.  It may sound like stereotyping, but it's true.  The Varsity Blues college admission scandal is Exhibit A.  20 years ago I never heard of parents throwing tantrums because Johnny couldn't be in the same classroom as his best friend Tony.  Now, it is commonplace.  And as soon as a teacher or admin gives into the behavior, it emboldens that parent and causes other parents to copycat.  The same happens in the soccer world--playing time, etc.  The ironic thing is that the less you allow your kids to make mistakes and figure out their independence now (ie, the more you try to control now), the more they will be hindered in adulthood.

2)  Kids are not as knowledgeable today as they were 20+ years ago.  In search of their kid being the best at something, parents are forcing their kids to specialize too early, too young, be it soccer, violin, chess, math etc.  That may be good for that particular activity right now, but it will become a burden in the classroom and long term in their careers.  We are seeing kids not as creative, not as interested in risk-taking, not as good at multitasking.  Why?  Because Mom/Dad are helping with homework, having the uncomfortable discussions with coaches/teachers, protecting their kids from any experience of failure, and funneling their kids' into a very narrow skill/learning development track.  Not to mention spending more time on the soccer field (or pick your sport) than on learning.  How many parents reading this spend time kicking the ball around with your son/daughter each week?  I bet a lot of you do.  And that's good.  I do too (though not as much as when my now teenagers were younger).  But now, how many of you also spend the same amount of time or more on learning/creative tasks, problem solving, doing math story problems, building robots/rockets with your kids, writing poetry, reading Tolkien?  Most parents are not doing any of that, or they just help with their kids' homework--which is a completely different motivation (getting the "A").  Steve Jobs was one of the most creative and multi-talented people because of his wide array of experiences and education.  For example, he credits a calligraphy class he took for providing inspiration for Apple's fonts.  

3)  Social media has caused parent FOMO to skyrocket.  Before Facetrash, Insta, Youtube etc. parents only compared their kids to other kids at their school and the occasional kid who was written about in the newspaper or on the local news.  Now, youth sport has become big business and bragging about kids on social media has become even bigger business (not to mention the rankings companies).  It takes a strong and confident parent to brush aside the temptations to specialize their child and follow the crowd when every 5 minutes another bell, whistle or vibration is going off in their pocket about another 9 year old 6 states away scoring a goal or winning a trophy.  Next time you're feeling this way, just tell yourself, "It doesn't matter."  Because it doesn't.

4)  I'm now in math/economics and another reason we parents are in this predicament is the relative wealth of this country.  I know, I don't feel wealthy either, but our parents and our parents parents spent most of their time trying to figure out how to afford food, car payments, rent and diapers.  Not $3-4K for soccer club fees.  They didn't have enough free time to drive hours to/from a practice.  I was lucky to get a ride home from hockey practice from my Dad, who often worked 12 hour shifts for a boss that didn't give 2 shi**s about what his long term employee's kids were doing in the evenings and on weekends.  Things are different now.  Parents not only attend all games, but often every practice too.  A prior poster mentioned that he's teaching lessons to his daughter about hard work through soccer.  When reading this, I thought, how do you know when she's working her hardest?  Are you attending every practice and watching how she performs in every drill, for every scrimmage, in every game?  Many parents do today and that puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on the kids to be performing "her best" all the time.  You don't have good days and bad days at work?  And if you are watching for that critical evaluation on the soccer pitch, are you also going to the school and sitting in the classroom every day to make sure she's working her hardest in her academics?  Of course not, that would be silly, right?  

I violated my own post-length rule--apologies--happy to hear others' continued thoughts -- agreeing or disagreeing both welcomed equally.


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## Grace T. (Dec 4, 2019)

oh canada said:


> And if you are watching for that critical evaluation on the soccer pitch, are you also going to the school and sitting in the classroom every day to make sure she's working her hardest in her academics?  Of course not, that would be silly, right?


Maybe not the athletics-first parents, but the academics-first parents would totally do that if they were able (and at the younger ages some try to by becoming room moms).  The limitations being: 1) at a certain point, the work is just too advanced, and 2) the school obviously won't let you sit there or even visit campus these days (because of security concerns).  Don't underestimate the limits of tigering and helicoptering.  It's also not just about the grade....though Kumon and CLC help with homework, learning Chinese is not about the grade.


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## newwavedave (Dec 4, 2019)

oh canada said:


> So happy that this thread has generated a lot of discussion and provoked thought.  After all, our kids' well-being is top priority.  I am an educator (20+ years) and I've seen a lot change in that time with parents in the classroom.  I also see this on the soccer field (and other sports too).  I am by no means a perfect parent, nor have all the answers to parenting, but thought adding a few things I've noticed through the years would be of further help to those interested...
> 
> 1)  Parents now are definitely more involved with their kids and trying to influence their decisions, their experiences and their development.  20 years ago, parents were much more willing to accept the path that their kids were choosing, that teachers were recommending based upon their expertise, or that fate was providing.  This happens more in the middle/upper class school districts and likewise at those soccer (and other sport) clubs too.  Cops, Firefighters, cooks and other teachers are much more willing to defer....middle management, white-collar corporate types in middle/upper income groups are much more "involved" in controlling their kids childhood.  It may sound like stereotyping, but it's true.  The Varsity Blues college admission scandal is Exhibit A.  20 years ago I never heard of parents throwing tantrums because Johnny couldn't be in the same classroom as his best friend Tony.  Now, it is commonplace.  And as soon as a teacher or admin gives into the behavior, it emboldens that parent and causes other parents to copycat.  The same happens in the soccer world--playing time, etc.  The ironic thing is that the less you allow your kids to make mistakes and figure out their independence now (ie, the more you try to control now), the more they will be hindered in adulthood.
> 
> ...


Thanks for writing this.  "Social media is the devil"


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## foreveryoung (Dec 4, 2019)

oh canada said:


> So happy that this thread has generated a lot of discussion and provoked thought.  After all, our kids' well-being is top priority.  I am an educator (20+ years) and I've seen a lot change in that time with parents in the classroom.  I also see this on the soccer field (and other sports too).  I am by no means a perfect parent, nor have all the answers to parenting, but thought adding a few things I've noticed through the years would be of further help to those interested...
> 
> 1)  Parents now are definitely more involved with their kids and trying to influence their decisions, their experiences and their development.  20 years ago, parents were much more willing to accept the path that their kids were choosing, that teachers were recommending based upon their expertise, or that fate was providing.  This happens more in the middle/upper class school districts and likewise at those soccer (and other sport) clubs too.  Cops, Firefighters, cooks and other teachers are much more willing to defer....middle management, white-collar corporate types in middle/upper income groups are much more "involved" in controlling their kids childhood.  It may sound like stereotyping, but it's true.  The Varsity Blues college admission scandal is Exhibit A.  20 years ago I never heard of parents throwing tantrums because Johnny couldn't be in the same classroom as his best friend Tony.  Now, it is commonplace.  And as soon as a teacher or admin gives into the behavior, it emboldens that parent and causes other parents to copycat.  The same happens in the soccer world--playing time, etc.  The ironic thing is that the less you allow your kids to make mistakes and figure out their independence now (ie, the more you try to control now), the more they will be hindered in adulthood.
> 
> ...


Definitely spot on.  I would add that the relative wealth of our country has also led to a hyper-focus on success/happiness equaling wealth, status and position. It's a race to superficial living.  Given the increase in suicide rates (especially among young people) and that 1 in 6 Americans takes a psychiatric drug I'm not sure that's really the path to happiness.  

You might enjoy this book if you haven't already read it.  Written by a 20+ year high school teacher in Silicon Valley.  





__





						Amazon.com: How to Raise Successful People: Simple Lessons for Radical Results eBook : Wojcicki, Esther: Kindle Store
					

Buy How to Raise Successful People: Simple Lessons for Radical Results: Read Kindle Store Reviews - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com
				




Table Of Contents
*Trust*
Trust Yourself, Trust Your Child
*Respect*
Your Child Is Not Your Clone
*Independence*
Don’t Do Anything for Your Children That They Can Do for Themselves
Give Your Child Grit
*Collaboration*
Don’t Dictate, Collaborate
Children Hear What You Do, Not What You Say
*Kindness*
Kindness: Model It. It’s Contagious
Teach Your Child to Give a Damn


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## way up (Dec 4, 2019)

oh canada said:


> So happy that this thread has generated a lot of discussion and provoked thought.  After all, our kids' well-being is top priority.  I am an educator (20+ years) and I've seen a lot change in that time with parents in the classroom.  I also see this on the soccer field (and other sports too).  I am by no means a perfect parent, nor have all the answers to parenting, but thought adding a few things I've noticed through the years would be of further help to those interested...
> 
> 1)  Parents now are definitely more involved with their kids and trying to influence their decisions, their experiences and their development.  20 years ago, parents were much more willing to accept the path that their kids were choosing, that teachers were recommending based upon their expertise, or that fate was providing.  This happens more in the middle/upper class school districts and likewise at those soccer (and other sport) clubs too.  Cops, Firefighters, cooks and other teachers are much more willing to defer....middle management, white-collar corporate types in middle/upper income groups are much more "involved" in controlling their kids childhood.  It may sound like stereotyping, but it's true.  The Varsity Blues college admission scandal is Exhibit A.  20 years ago I never heard of parents throwing tantrums because Johnny couldn't be in the same classroom as his best friend Tony.  Now, it is commonplace.  And as soon as a teacher or admin gives into the behavior, it emboldens that parent and causes other parents to copycat.  The same happens in the soccer world--playing time, etc.  The ironic thing is that the less you allow your kids to make mistakes and figure out their independence now (ie, the more you try to control now), the more they will be hindered in adulthood.
> 
> ...


I think were conflating issues about the youth of today. To keep this simple, I own a business and spend a lot of time doing fun things, practicing soccer, socializing, cooking, problem solving, etc. etc. with my girls. I can't speak for everyone, but there is a lot more competition and struggle to keep up with the Jones's today, so yes, we all probably have more pressure and stress on ourselves and put more of that on our kids. Not everyone has my flexible schedule, but I worked hard to build that and use it to be there for my family.

My opinion is that pressure and stress teaches them how to handle stress and pressure. Mental health and depression are real medical issues and more likely genealogical not from involved parents encouraging and motivating their kids to work hard and perform well. Maybe parents need to be more involved and see the signs?? I don't know, but health care is very expensive. We are taxed to death and like I also mentioned, 59% of American Adults don't even have $1k for an emergency, so many are struggling to even get their medication. Just watched the movie The Joker which kind of hits on what I'm describing.

My grandfathers dealt with world war 2, the depression, and extremely hard life, so the pressure I put on my kids is a joke compared to that. My grandfathers would probably rip me a new one for feeling bad for having expectations and making my kids earn their entry into expensive competitive sports. Now, if my kids did have some mental issues or learning disorders, of course, I would balance my expectations. My wife teaches special education and I hear about how common learning disorders are and every kid is different as well.

I think the approach many subscribe to here will actually make many kids weaker and unable to handle the stress of tomorrow. Mistakes today can make your life disastrous, so there is not much room for error for young people. Of course, kids need to make some mistakes and learn from them, but that's no reason we can't educate and help them along the way. I own a business and have mentored many a young adult and the latest group is the weakest and most underprepared for adulthood I've ever seen and the parents DO NOT PUT PRESSURE OR CHALLENGE THEM! The parents fix everything for them and that is in no way what I'm saying I do for my girls. I have expectations with effort and hard work or the finances stop, period.

And as far as knowing if my kid is trying her hardest. Heck yes, I can tell. I want her to have fun. I want her to love her team. I expect her to appreciate the time I put in driving her everywhere and paying for club soccer though and she earns that with hard work and effort. That's me. If others want to not have expectations and put their time and energy into this regardless of their kid's effort, have at it. Does life, the police, teachers, colleges, coaches, bosses, etc. etc. care about how your day is going with your or your child's behavior or performance.

We don't live in wonderland. This is the real world with real consequences and real tryouts and real admission standards and real job opportunities or lack there of. That's where I live and it's where I am raising my kids to live. Again, just me. Just my opinions as I think of older American Generations compared to this modern snowflake society with excuses and safe spaces where pressure and challenge are too much for some to handle.  Of course, there is a balance. Again, just me. Just my opinions as I think of older American Generations compared to this modern snowflake society with excuses and safe spaces where pressure and challenge are too much for some to handle.


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## way up (Dec 4, 2019)

way up said:


> I think were conflating issues about the youth of today. To keep this simple, I own a business and spend a lot of time doing fun things, practicing soccer, socializing, cooking, problem solving, etc. etc. with my girls. I can't speak for everyone, but there is a lot more competition and struggle to keep up with the Jones's today, so yes, we all probably have more pressure and stress on ourselves and put more of that on our kids. Not everyone has my flexible schedule, but I worked hard to build that and use it to be there for my family.
> 
> My opinion is that pressure and stress teaches them how to handle stress and pressure. Mental health and depression are real medical issues and more likely genealogical not from involved parents encouraging and motivating their kids to work hard and perform well. Maybe parents need to be more involved and see the signs?? I don't know, but health care is very expensive. We are taxed to death and like I also mentioned, 59% of American Adults don't even have $1k for an emergency, so many are struggling to even get their medication. Just watched the movie The Joker which kind of hits on what I'm describing.
> 
> ...


I would also add I feel those who learn to work hard and look at obstacles in life as challenges and hurdles will out perform others left to figure things out on their own with no expectations and no pressure. I actually envy my girls, because I feel so many young kids now a days are growing up so soft due to soft parenting without expectations and pressure. Those who work hard and handle pressure well will be far more prepared for the challenges of life which can be very difficult. I do enjoy the discussion and find it interesting how different many of us think. I'm very thankful that I was raised how I was!


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## way up (Dec 4, 2019)

way up said:


> I would also add I feel those who learn to work hard and look at obstacles in life as challenges and hurdles will out perform others left to figure things out on their own with no expectations and no pressure. I actually envy my girls, because I feel so many young kids now a days are growing up so soft due to soft parenting without expectations and pressure. Those who work hard and handle pressure well will be far more prepared for the challenges of life which can be very difficult. I do enjoy the discussion and find it interesting how different many of us think. I'm very thankful that I was raised how I was!


Honestly though, the major problem for the youth today is lack of 2 parent households. My wife is absolutely amazing and I'm sure others on here can relate. Having a child is never a mistake, EVER! They are always a gift that you better get off of your a$$ and take care of in life, but you have to find good life partners. Children need 2 parents that love each other imo. When they get that, anything is possible. Just saying it's an advantage. Saddens me to see so many not making it through the marathon, because this is what it is all about. Also, the pressure I put on my kids is pretty minor. I reward my kids to work hard, so not so much pressure. They just have to make the effort to make me break out the dollar bill. For my older honors class straight A student, same thing. They pick their path. I could write a book about it, but it FRIGGEN COMMON SENSE! Be there, help them, reward them, talk to them. BE A DAMN PARENT!


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## RuffRef (Dec 5, 2019)

i notice theres no pressure on kids playing in the Rec-leagues....  Mo Money,, Mo Problems..!!!


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## Simisoccerfan (Dec 6, 2019)

Each and every one of you including me exhibits this behavior!  Look this is a website dedicated to parents posting about youth soccer.  You can’t be on this website and not be overly involved per what this one person wrote in a Psychology mag.  I bet the person who wrote it has kids that dance or play an instrument and they are overly involved in that themselves.  But they don’t like sports.  I say enjoy every minute of your kids accomplishments and journey since they grow up fast.


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