# Seven stages of Covid.. keep playing and find out how far you will go!



## Soccermaverick

Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.

Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.

Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.



Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.



Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.

We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.



Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.

If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.

Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.

The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.



If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.

Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.

I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.



As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


----------



## MSK357

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


Perfect example of using an extreme case for generalizing the whole. Kind of like people that say vaccines kill people. You're just on the other side of the spectrum.


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## Soccermaverick

This isn’t a extreme case.. You may never get to stage 1.. good for you…650,000 people have died in this manner… Polio scared people because you could see the outward affects of the disease… If you die of Covid you go into the hospital and you don’t come out..

The (YOUR) laissez faire attitude of the current population wheeling and dealing with the virus needs to be called out!


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


Print this on leaflets and drop them on the hordes of unvaxxed.  Should work..


----------



## espola

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


I have COPD and I ended up in the hospital at about stage 3 in your description above after coughing for days and not able to clear my lungs.  My wife eventually called 911 after I was unable to walk to her car so she could take me to urgent care.  One night in the hospital "cured" me -- I can breathe easily now with help of twice-daily inhaler usage, but I still have the COPD.

Feeling your own lungs killing you slowly is no picnic.


----------



## MSK357

Soccermaverick said:


> This isn’t a extreme case.. You may never get to stage 1.. good for you…650,000 people have died in this manner… Polio scared people because you could see the outward affects of the disease… If you die of Covid you go into the hospital and you don’t come out..
> 
> The (YOUR) laissez faire attitude of the current population wheeling and dealing with the virus needs to be called out!


It would be nice if you broke down who out of 650k died, at what age, and how many pre existing conditions. Then add how many covid cases total, to include the estimates of those unreported because they weren't symptomatic. But I have a feeling it it wouldn't give off the same extreme viewpoint you are trying to deliver. But whatever, get vaccinated and stop coming out of your house, because everytime you step out you are risking the spread of covid or risk getting covid yourself. Practice the extreme views you preach or shut up.


----------



## MSK357

At your 





espola said:


> I have COPD and I ended up in the hospital at about stage 3 in your description above after coughing for days and not able to clear my lungs.  My wife eventually called 911 after I was unable to walk to her car so she could take me to urgent care.  One night in the hospital "cured" me -- I can breathe easily now with help of twice-daily inhaler usage, but I still have the COPD.
> 
> Feeling your own lungs killing you slowly is no picnic.


At your age I'm not surprised. You should probably give up your drivers liscense to.


----------



## Soccermaverick

espola said:


> I have COPD and I ended up in the hospital at about stage 3 in your description above after coughing for days and not able to clear my lungs.  My wife eventually called 911 after I was unable to walk to her car so she could take me to urgent care.  One night in the hospital "cured" me -- I can breathe easily now with help of twice-daily inhaler usage, but I still have the COPD.
> 
> Feeling your own lungs killing you slowly is no picnic.


When I was young I got to stage 2 with asthma … it was awful… still remember it to this day… I feel what you are going through… COPD is not a joke… follow what the doctors tell you and keep up to date on changes… I notice the body has a funny way of thinking you have enough O2 when you actually don’t.

good luck


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccermaverick said:


> This isn’t a extreme case.


Um...yes it is. 

80+% of those that have died are 65+ in age. With that heavily skewed at 70+ and with health issues. The rest who died? By and large people with serious health issues. 

The vast vast majority of people have no worry as it relates to covid. 

So...if you are high risk get vaccinated.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> This isn’t a extreme case.. You may never get to stage 1.. good for you…650,000 people have died in this manner… Polio scared people because you could see the outward affects of the disease… If you die of Covid you go into the hospital and you don’t come out..
> 
> The (YOUR) laissez faire attitude of the current population wheeling and dealing with the virus needs to be called out!


Really?  Cause not one person that I know whom has had Covid (pre vax) has had that experience.  Not my neighbors, not my co-workers, not my Nephews, financial advisor (and his family), not my Chiropractor, my Brother-in-law, Sister not my 80 ur old Mother-in-law.  Before you say it, 5 of the people on this list have gotten Covid in the past month and are Not “vaccinated”.

Can it be serious 100%, is the experience you articulate possible, 100%, is it likely, NOT AT ALL.

If your worries, get the shot but to paint a morbid picture like that is irresponsible.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> This isn’t a extreme case.. You may never get to stage 1.. good for you…650,000 people have died in this manner… Polio scared people because you could see the outward affects of the disease… If you die of Covid you go into the hospital and you don’t come out..
> 
> The (YOUR) laissez faire attitude of the current population wheeling and dealing with the virus needs to be called out!


98% survival rate and climbing.


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


I'm pro-vax, but this is just straight up fear mongering (and yes I fell for a 100% troll post).  Like I've said before, compliance through fear only works sometimes for churches and totalitarian countries.

Let me take the emotion out of it for you and look at the data.  In my county, San Diego, in the last 18 months you've had a 99.98% chance of not suffering the alleged 7 stages of Covid if your under 60.  (Which I believe is the age group that applies to all of us on this forum, with the possible exception of Espola).

Keep in mind that vaccines are not risk free.  My teen daughter was the first to get the vaccine in the family because she volunteers for seniors.  She has had a very troubling side effect for the last 5 months.  She will not be getting a booster if recommended.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Desert Hound said:


> Um...yes it is.
> 
> 80+% of those that have died are 65+ in age. With that heavily skewed at 70+ and with health issues. The rest who died? By and large people with serious health issues.
> 
> The vast vast majority of people have no worry as it relates to covid.
> 
> So...if you are high risk get vaccinated.


I can tell you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.

The definition of a stage in this context is
a period or phase in the course of a disease also  : the degree of involvement or severity of a disease

You should watch the movie Logan’s Run… what age is acceptable to die of covid. ?


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> *I can tell you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.*


I get it, you are one of those.  I just hope your day job isn't in healthcare.


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


Hey Mavs, how many of these souls bodies were in excellent condition when they came in with Covid?  How about how many were in good condition?  Average age please?   BTW, good condition + excellent condition means no underlying health issues beside Rona.  You get that?  Last but not least, how many were under 18?  Thanks for scaring folks again with all your bullshit.  Exposed!!!!


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> I can tell you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.
> 
> The definition of a stage in this context is
> a period or phase in the course of a disease also  : the degree of involvement or severity of a disease
> 
> You should watch the movie Logan’s Run… what age is acceptable to die of covid. ?


Add another to the list of those afflicted with fear-based Covid myopia.


----------



## crush

watfly said:


> *I'm pro-vax, *


I'm Pro Choice


----------



## SoccerFan4Life

Desert Hound said:


> Um...yes it is.
> 
> 80+% of those that have died are 65+ in age. With that heavily skewed at 70+ and with health issues. The rest who died? By and large people with serious health issues.
> 
> The vast vast majority of people have no worry as it relates to covid.
> 
> So...if you are high risk get vaccinated.











						COVID-19 deaths by age U.S. 2022 | Statista
					

Between the beginning of January 2020 and November 2, 2022, of the 1,065,276 deaths caused by COVID-19 in the United States, around 280,340 had occurred among those aged 85 years and older.




					www.statista.com
				




mostly over 60 but the middle age group is growing with the delta variant.      Let’s see what happens in the next few months.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Kicker4Life said:


> Really?  Cause not one person that I know whom has had Covid (pre vax) has had that experience.  Not my neighbors, not my co-workers, not my Nephews, financial advisor (and his family), not my Chiropractor, my Brother-in-law, Sister not my 80 ur old Mother-in-law.  Before you say it, 5 of the people on this list have gotten Covid in the past month and are Not “vaccinated”.
> 
> Can it be serious 100%, is the experience you articulate possible, 100%, is it likely, NOT AT ALL.
> 
> If your worries, get the shot but to paint a morbid picture like that is irresponsible.


Typical deflection… not my chiropractor… that’s a good one!


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> You should watch the movie Logan’s Run… what age is acceptable to die of covid. ?


You know what Logan's Run and the 7 Stages of Covid have in common?  They're both fiction.


----------



## Soccermaverick

what-happened said:


> I get it, you are one of those.  I just hope your day job isn't in healthcare.


I know patients like you ….always complaining… demanding favors…lying to the front desk telling them you don’t have Covid when you know you do.. asking for disability… yep I know you.


----------



## watfly

MSK357 said:


> It would be nice if you broke down who out of 650k died, at what age, and how many pre existing conditions.





Desert Hound said:


> The rest who died? By and large people with serious health issues.


To expound on those thoughts, this is from the CDC:

"_For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death."_


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> Typical deflection… not my chiropractor… that’s a good one!


What you call deflection I know is a reality.  I should have known that when faced with alternative facts your type would turn to slinging insults and/or denial.  

PS - My Chiropractor is also a dear friend whom I’ve know for 20 years…my bad for only for only referring to her as my Chiro.

Just keep your fear porn addiction to yourself.


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> You know what Logan's Run and the 7 Stages of Covid have in common?  They're both fiction.


Breathe deep and find out. What age is acceptable?


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> Breathe deep and find out. What age is acceptable?


Been breathing deep and living life as normal as possible for the last 18 months.


----------



## MyDaughtersAKeeper

Soccermaverick said:


> Get vaccinated. If you choose not to, here’s what to expect if you are hospitalized for a serious case of COVID-19.
> 
> Stage 1. You’ve had debilitating symptoms for a few days, but now it is so hard to breathe that you come to the emergency room. Your oxygen saturation level tells us you need help, a supplemental flow of 1 to 4 liters of oxygen per minute. We admit you and start you on antivirals, steroids, anticoagulants or monoclonal antibodies. You’ll spend several days in the hospital feeling run-down, but if we can wean you off the oxygen, you’ll get discharged. You survive.
> 
> Stage 2. It becomes harder and harder for you to breathe. “Like drowning,” many patients describe the feeling. The bronchodilator treatments we give you provide little relief. Your oxygen requirements increase significantly, from 4 liters to 15 liters to 40 liters per minute. Little things, like relieving yourself or sitting up in bed, become too difficult for you to do on your own. Your oxygen saturation rapidly declines when you move about. We transfer you to the intensive care unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 3. You’re exhausted from hyperventilating to satisfy your body’s demand for air. We put you on noninvasive, “positive pressure” ventilation — a big, bulky face mask that must be Velcro’d tightly around your face so the machine can efficiently push pressure into your lungs to pop them open so you get enough of the oxygen it delivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 4. Your breathing becomes even more labored. We can tell you’re severely fatigued. An arterial blood draw confirms that the oxygen content in your blood is critically low. We prepare to intubate you. If you’re able to and if there’s time, we will suggest that you call your loved ones. This might be the last time they’ll hear your voice.
> 
> We connect you to a ventilator. You are sedated and paralyzed, fed through a feeding tube, hooked to a Foley catheter and a rectal tube. We turn your limp body regularly, so you don’t develop pressure ulcers — bed sores. We bathe you and keep you clean. We flip you onto your stomach to allow for better oxygenation. We will try experimental therapeutics.
> 
> 
> 
> Stage 5. Some patients survive Stage 4. Unfortunately, your oxygen levels and overall condition have not improved after several days on the ventilator. Your COVID-infested lungs need assistance and time to heal, something that an ECMO machine, which bypasses your lungs and oxygenates your blood, can provide. But alas, our community hospital doesn’t have that capability.
> 
> If you’re stable enough, you will get transferred to another hospital for that therapy. Otherwise, we’ll continue treating you as best we can. We’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but we’ll always give you the best care we can.
> 
> Stage 6. The pressure required to open your lungs is so high that air can leak into your chest cavity, so we insert tubes to clear it out. Your kidneys fail to filter the byproducts from the drugs we continuously give you. Despite diuretics, your entire body swells from fluid retention, and you require dialysis to help with your renal function.
> 
> The long hospital stay and your depressed immune system make you susceptible to infections. A chest X-ray shows fluid accumulating in your lung sacs. A blood clot may show up, too. We can’t prevent these complications at this point; we treat them as they present.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood pressure drops critically, we will administer vasopressors to bring it up, but your heart may stop anyway. After several rounds of CPR, we’ll get your pulse and circulation back. But soon, your family will need to make a difficult decision.
> 
> Stage 7: After several meetings with the palliative care team, your family decides to withdraw care. We extubate you, turning off the breathing machinery. We set up a final FaceTime call with your loved ones. As we work in your room, we hear crying and loving goodbyes. We cry, too, and we hold your hand until your last natural breath.
> 
> I’ve been at this for 17 months now. It doesn’t get easier. My pandemic stories rarely end well.
> 
> 
> 
> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


Either you are Karen Gallardo or you copy and pasted her words  (Karen Gallardo: On the front lines, here’s what the 7 stages of severe COVID-19 look like | The Spokesman-Review )  Give credit where credit is due. 

I also have asthma.  I am vaccinated as are my kids.  I wear a mask indoors as I do not know the vaccination status of others and I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus to someone else (in the event I have it and do not know it).   The people that don't believe in the vaccine aren't going to be moved by the words you posted.

PS  I don't care what anyone else thinks about COVID, masks or the vaccine.  We make decisions for us and leave others to make decisions for themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccermaverick said:


> I can tell you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.


I have had quite a bit of schooling. Much of it dealing with data and how to interpret data. 

You apparently work more on emotion (see your original post) and/or don't understand the difference in risk factors between those in the high risk categories, and quite frankly the overwhelming majority of people.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> I know patients like you ….always complaining… demanding favors…lying to the front desk telling them you don’t have Covid when you know you do.. asking for disability… yep I know you.


is that you Karen? from ventura?  

Shame on your for talking about your patients this way.  Is this your way of confirming you are a healthcare professional?


----------



## what-happened

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> *Either you are Karen Gallardo or you copy and pasted her words  (Karen Gallardo: On the front lines, here’s what the 7 stages of severe COVID-19 look like | The Spokesman-Review )  Give credit where credit is due.*
> 
> I also have asthma.  I am vaccinated as are my kids.  I wear a mask indoors as I do not know the vaccination status of others and I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus to someone else (in the event I have it and do not know it).   The people that don't believe in the vaccine aren't going to be moved by the words you posted.
> 
> PS  I don't care what anyone else thinks about COVID, masks or the vaccine.  We make decisions for us and leave others to make decisions for themselves.


This has been circulating for a few days nows.  Respiratory therapists have a difficult job.  Doesn't mean they get free license to fear monger.  And to your point, these words hardly influence anyone to do anything.  Public health messaging has been bad and frustrates many who are working hard.  

I think this thread is a dunner but i'm sure Karen from Ventura will continue.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Yo


MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> Either you are Karen Gallardo or you copy and pasted her words  (Karen Gallardo: On the front lines, here’s what the 7 stages of severe COVID-19 look like | The Spokesman-Review )  Give credit where credit is due.
> 
> I also have asthma.  I am vaccinated as are my kids.  I wear a mask indoors as I do not know the vaccination status of others and I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus to someone else (in the event I have it and do not know it).   The people that don't believe in the vaccine aren't going to be moved by the words you posted.
> 
> PS  I don't care what anyone else thinks about COVID, masks or the vaccine.  We make decisions for us and leave others to make decisions for themselves.


If one person pays attention that’s a win.. I am glad you read the original op Ed… The opportunists and deflection artist use anti mask and anti vaccine to spread their message….Their false consciousness has done great harm to our country.

.As someone who used a inhaler early on in life I will ramp up and educate wherever I can…

I said it before… I am see a lot of wheeling and dealing with this virus… we need to get this thing under control before it’s outside the vaccine.

BTW my vaccine dates were Jan 8 and Feb 4… the booster can’t come soon enough! So don’t think I don’t have a vested interest!


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Breathe deep and find out. What age is acceptable?


no age should be acceptable, to include onset of a heartbeat......


----------



## Soccermaverick

Plan B is available …  make it free.. oh we don’t want women controlling their bodies!



what-happened said:


> no age should be acceptable, to include onset of a heartbeat......


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> is that you Karen? from ventura?
> 
> Shame on your for talking about your patients this way.  Is this your way of confirming you are a healthcare professional?


Now you know why I eat only veggies, fruits, salads and nuts.  Stay away from meat or Nurse Karen will be waiting to serve you certain death.  Triple pay bonus going on.  Stay the fuck out of hospitals these days if you can.  The good and kind hearted non vaxer nurses have left and now Karen is waiting to take good care of you.


----------



## watfly

Exaggerating the risks of Covid are no more helpful than underestimating the risks of Covid.  But somehow over exaggerating the risks (without consideration of the resulting costs of doing so) is OK if it saves one Covid life?


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> we need to get this thing under control before it’s outside the vaccine.
> 
> BTW my vaccine dates were Jan 8 and Feb 4… the booster can’t come soon enough! So don’t think I don’t have a vested interest!


You do realize this statement is contradiction?  First, it depends what you mean by "control".  We know the delta can break through both natural and vaccine immunity to create cases so it is possible (if immunity for either declines over time) that herd immunity is an illusion which can never be achieved.

Second, even if we managed to "control" it here in the United States, there are plenty of other states which won't complete vaccination until 2023!  That's plenty of time for new variants to emerge that evade, in whole or in part, prior natural or vaccine immunity.

Third, yet you say boosters can't come soon enough.  Every booster you use is a vaccine that can't go to the third world, which gives plenty of more reservoir for more variants to emerge.

Fourth, even if we were to miraculously vaccinated every citizen of Haiti, Afghanistan, and the Amazon rainforest, this thing has a substantial zoonotic reservoir already and is increasingly crossing into other species (it's crossed from human to dog now and there's some speculation it might have crossed into mice/rats).


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> You do realize this statement is contradiction?  First, it depends what you mean by "control".  We know the delta can break through both natural and vaccine immunity to create cases so it is possible (if immunity for either declines over time) that herd immunity is an illusion which can never be achieved.
> 
> Second, even if we managed to "control" it here in the United States, there are plenty of other states which won't complete vaccination until 2023!  That's plenty of time for new variants to emerge that evade, in whole or in part, prior natural or vaccine immunity.
> 
> Third, yet you say boosters can't come soon enough.  Every booster you use is a vaccine that can't go to the third world, which gives plenty of more reservoir for more variants to emerge.
> 
> Fourth, even if we were to miraculously vaccinated every citizen of Haiti, Afghanistan, and the Amazon rainforest, this thing has a substantial zoonotic reservoir already and is increasingly crossing into other species (it's crossed from human to dog now and there's some speculation it might have crossed into mice/rats).


Where does this mindset come from that we can eliminate or control the virus...is it just the arrogance of so-called experts?  I'm all for mitigation but I'm not sure how successful our mitigation measures have even been.


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> Exaggerating the risks of Covid are no more helpful than underestimating the risks of Covid.  But somehow over exaggerating the risks (without consideration of the resulting costs of doing so) is OK if it saves


The risk is real…people believe they are managing the cost as long as it doesn’t affect them…opportunists using false consciousness to tell you the risk.  Using only personal experience as justification why Covid is nothing more than a bad cold.

How did we get here. They groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.

That’s because Antimask anti vaccine  are the abused in an abusive relationship. How they groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.  Let me know if this has been your life...

1 - You've been told that nobody else understands you like they do. Yep I wrote  it Fox News

2 - Everyone else gets badmouthed. It's just the two of you literally against the entire world. And they'll do it so much that things that aren't epithets get used as words to hate everyone else by. Yep I wrote it again Fox News.

3 - They'll tell you that, if you left them, all other relationships are just the same as the one you're in (even though you can see other people online talking about how what you're in is a bad relationship and all you have to do is leave them). “Both sides are the same but I’m better” - eventually, you don’t know up from down in what constitutes a healthy or a toxic relationship.

4 - You're told what to cut out of your life. Music, interests, TV shows, certain movies, even frothy coffee gets badmouthed and cut out because "you don't want to be a 'latte drinker' now do you?" (there's one of those things I mentioned in #2, using things that aren't epithets as one to control you).

5 - They take your money, claim they'll be great with it, and then spend it on their friends. They'll give you crumbs once in a while. Maybe every four years they'll treat you to a little something nice (that's worth a fraction of what they gave to their friends).

6 - every problem gets kicked down the road. The problem crops up in the New Year but it wasn't even mentioned in January. "It's going to go away" in February, and anyone that mentions it is just saying fake stuff, baby. Still nothing done in March, but any mention of it is "you're just finding faults with me". Then when April comes and it's clear what the storm looks like, they blame everyone else for saying it wasn't going to be a big deal. Sounds familiar, huh.

7 - like in any abusive relationship, you're beaten down. You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults. Even though you know of situations where you've come out worse for the way the relationship is, you defend the abuser.  First with a fake air of calm, then with a seething rage. And when people offer you a way out, you go right back to the abuse.

8 - the relationship is so twisted, you so believe everything you're told about what's real and what's not, they will literally put you in situations that could kill you. And you say you're doing it willingly, proudly, but the fact is you're a shell of the idealistic person you used to be. You just got in with the wrong crowd, but it's too late to get out now because people might think less of you. Which is all part of what you were told in #1. Only they understand you...

False consciousness at work.. Covid denial at work


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccermaverick said:


> The risk is real…people believe they are managing the cost as long as it doesn’t affect them…opportunists using false consciousness to tell you the risk.  Using only personal experience as justification why Covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
> 
> How did we get here. They groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.
> 
> That’s because Antimask anti vaccine  are the abused in an abusive relationship. How they groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.  Let me know if this has been your life...
> 
> 1 - You've been told that nobody else understands you like they do. Yep I wrote  it Fox News
> 
> 2 - Everyone else gets badmouthed. It's just the two of you literally against the entire world. And they'll do it so much that things that aren't epithets get used as words to hate everyone else by. Yep I wrote it again Fox News.
> 
> 3 - They'll tell you that, if you left them, all other relationships are just the same as the one you're in (even though you can see other people online talking about how what you're in is a bad relationship and all you have to do is leave them). “Both sides are the same but I’m better” - eventually, you don’t know up from down in what constitutes a healthy or a toxic relationship.
> 
> 4 - You're told what to cut out of your life. Music, interests, TV shows, certain movies, even frothy coffee gets badmouthed and cut out because "you don't want to be a 'latte drinker' now do you?" (there's one of those things I mentioned in #2, using things that aren't epithets as one to control you).
> 
> 5 - They take your money, claim they'll be great with it, and then spend it on their friends. They'll give you crumbs once in a while. Maybe every four years they'll treat you to a little something nice (that's worth a fraction of what they gave to their friends).
> 
> 6 - every problem gets kicked down the road. The problem crops up in the New Year but it wasn't even mentioned in January. "It's going to go away" in February, and anyone that mentions it is just saying fake stuff, baby. Still nothing done in March, but any mention of it is "you're just finding faults with me". Then when April comes and it's clear what the storm looks like, they blame everyone else for saying it wasn't going to be a big deal. Sounds familiar, huh.
> 
> 7 - like in any abusive relationship, you're beaten down. You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults. Even though you know of situations where you've come out worse for the way the relationship is, you defend the abuser.  First with a fake air of calm, then with a seething rage. And when people offer you a way out, you go right back to the abuse.
> 
> 8 - the relationship is so twisted, you so believe everything you're told about what's real and what's not, they will literally put you in situations that could kill you. And you say you're doing it willingly, proudly, but the fact is you're a shell of the idealistic person you used to be. You just got in with the wrong crowd, but it's too late to get out now because people might think less of you. Which is all part of what you were told in #1. Only they understand you...
> 
> False consciousness at work.. Covid denial at work


... EOTL at work


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> The risk is real…people believe they are managing the cost as long as it doesn’t affect them…opportunists using false consciousness to tell you the risk.  Using only personal experience as justification why Covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
> 
> How did we get here. They groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.
> 
> That’s because Antimask anti vaccine  are the abused in an abusive relationship. How they groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.  Let me know if this has been your life...
> 
> 1 - You've been told that nobody else understands you like they do. Yep I wrote  it Fox News
> 
> 2 - Everyone else gets badmouthed. It's just the two of you literally against the entire world. And they'll do it so much that things that aren't epithets get used as words to hate everyone else by. Yep I wrote it again Fox News.
> 
> 3 - They'll tell you that, if you left them, all other relationships are just the same as the one you're in (even though you can see other people online talking about how what you're in is a bad relationship and all you have to do is leave them). “Both sides are the same but I’m better” - eventually, you don’t know up from down in what constitutes a healthy or a toxic relationship.
> 
> 4 - You're told what to cut out of your life. Music, interests, TV shows, certain movies, even frothy coffee gets badmouthed and cut out because "you don't want to be a 'latte drinker' now do you?" (there's one of those things I mentioned in #2, using things that aren't epithets as one to control you).
> 
> 5 - They take your money, claim they'll be great with it, and then spend it on their friends. They'll give you crumbs once in a while. Maybe every four years they'll treat you to a little something nice (that's worth a fraction of what they gave to their friends).
> 
> 6 - every problem gets kicked down the road. The problem crops up in the New Year but it wasn't even mentioned in January. "It's going to go away" in February, and anyone that mentions it is just saying fake stuff, baby. Still nothing done in March, but any mention of it is "you're just finding faults with me". Then when April comes and it's clear what the storm looks like, they blame everyone else for saying it wasn't going to be a big deal. Sounds familiar, huh.
> 
> 7 - like in any abusive relationship, you're beaten down. You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults. Even though you know of situations where you've come out worse for the way the relationship is, you defend the abuser.  First with a fake air of calm, then with a seething rage. And when people offer you a way out, you go right back to the abuse.
> 
> 8 - the relationship is so twisted, you so believe everything you're told about what's real and what's not, they will literally put you in situations that could kill you. And you say you're doing it willingly, proudly, but the fact is you're a shell of the idealistic person you used to be. You just got in with the wrong crowd, but it's too late to get out now because people might think less of you. Which is all part of what you were told in #1. Only they understand you...
> 
> False consciousness at work.. Covid denial at work


While I really have no clue what you're talking about, you seem to be a prisoner of two camps, monolithic thinking compounded by Covid myopia.  Covid is serious, hence why my family is vaccinated, but let's not kill a mosquito with dynamite.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> The risk is real…people believe they are managing the cost as long as it doesn’t affect them…opportunists using false consciousness to tell you the risk.  Using only personal experience as justification why Covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
> 
> How did we get here. They groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.
> 
> That’s because Antimask anti vaccine  are the abused in an abusive relationship. How they groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.  Let me know if this has been your life...
> 
> 1 - You've been told that nobody else understands you like they do. Yep I wrote  it Fox News
> 
> 2 - Everyone else gets badmouthed. It's just the two of you literally against the entire world. And they'll do it so much that things that aren't epithets get used as words to hate everyone else by. Yep I wrote it again Fox News.
> 
> 3 - They'll tell you that, if you left them, all other relationships are just the same as the one you're in (even though you can see other people online talking about how what you're in is a bad relationship and all you have to do is leave them). “Both sides are the same but I’m better” - eventually, you don’t know up from down in what constitutes a healthy or a toxic relationship.
> 
> 4 - You're told what to cut out of your life. Music, interests, TV shows, certain movies, even frothy coffee gets badmouthed and cut out because "you don't want to be a 'latte drinker' now do you?" (there's one of those things I mentioned in #2, using things that aren't epithets as one to control you).
> 
> 5 - They take your money, claim they'll be great with it, and then spend it on their friends. They'll give you crumbs once in a while. Maybe every four years they'll treat you to a little something nice (that's worth a fraction of what they gave to their friends).
> 
> 6 - every problem gets kicked down the road. The problem crops up in the New Year but it wasn't even mentioned in January. "It's going to go away" in February, and anyone that mentions it is just saying fake stuff, baby. Still nothing done in March, but any mention of it is "you're just finding faults with me". Then when April comes and it's clear what the storm looks like, they blame everyone else for saying it wasn't going to be a big deal. Sounds familiar, huh.
> 
> 7 - like in any abusive relationship, you're beaten down. You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults. Even though you know of situations where you've come out worse for the way the relationship is, you defend the abuser.  First with a fake air of calm, then with a seething rage. And when people offer you a way out, you go right back to the abuse.
> 
> 8 - the relationship is so twisted, you so believe everything you're told about what's real and what's not, they will literally put you in situations that could kill you. And you say you're doing it willingly, proudly, but the fact is you're a shell of the idealistic person you used to be. You just got in with the wrong crowd, but it's too late to get out now because people might think less of you. Which is all part of what you were told in #1. Only they understand you...
> 
> False consciousness at work.. Covid denial at work


Wow…the hypocrisy in this post is fascinating!

It’s like, “Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.”


----------



## Soccermaverick

Grace T. said:


> You do realize this statement is contradiction?  First, it depends what you mean by "control".  We know the delta can break through both natural and vaccine immunity to create cases so it is possible (if immunity for either declines over time) that herd immunity is an illusion which can never be achieved.
> 
> Second, even if we managed to "control" it here in the United States, there are plenty of other states which won't complete vaccination until 2023!  That's plenty of time for new variants to emerge that evade, in whole or in part, prior natural or vaccine immunity.
> 
> Third, yet you say boosters can't come soon enough.  Every booster you use is a vaccine that can't go to the third world, which gives plenty of more reservoir for more variants to emerge.
> 
> Fourth, even if we were to miraculously vaccinated every citizen of Haiti, Afghanistan, and the Amazon rainforest, this thing has a substantial zoonotic reservoir already and is increasingly crossing into other species (it's crossed from human to dog now and there's some speculation it might have crossed into mice/rats).


No contradiction intended… control will be a gray area… let’s hope the vaccine can keep up… you go to war with what you got!


----------



## MyDaughtersAKeeper

Soccermaverick said:


> The risk is real…people believe they are managing the cost as long as it doesn’t affect them…opportunists using false consciousness to tell you the risk.  Using only personal experience as justification why Covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
> 
> How did we get here. They groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.
> 
> That’s because Antimask anti vaccine  are the abused in an abusive relationship. How they groom people in eight steps, and you can substitute politics for religion or for personal relationships. It’s what they do, it’s who they are.  Let me know if this has been your life...
> 
> 1 - You've been told that nobody else understands you like they do. Yep I wrote  it Fox News
> 
> 2 - Everyone else gets badmouthed. It's just the two of you literally against the entire world. And they'll do it so much that things that aren't epithets get used as words to hate everyone else by. Yep I wrote it again Fox News.
> 
> 3 - They'll tell you that, if you left them, all other relationships are just the same as the one you're in (even though you can see other people online talking about how what you're in is a bad relationship and all you have to do is leave them). “Both sides are the same but I’m better” - eventually, you don’t know up from down in what constitutes a healthy or a toxic relationship.
> 
> 4 - You're told what to cut out of your life. Music, interests, TV shows, certain movies, even frothy coffee gets badmouthed and cut out because "you don't want to be a 'latte drinker' now do you?" (there's one of those things I mentioned in #2, using things that aren't epithets as one to control you).
> 
> 5 - They take your money, claim they'll be great with it, and then spend it on their friends. They'll give you crumbs once in a while. Maybe every four years they'll treat you to a little something nice (that's worth a fraction of what they gave to their friends).
> 
> 6 - every problem gets kicked down the road. The problem crops up in the New Year but it wasn't even mentioned in January. "It's going to go away" in February, and anyone that mentions it is just saying fake stuff, baby. Still nothing done in March, but any mention of it is "you're just finding faults with me". Then when April comes and it's clear what the storm looks like, they blame everyone else for saying it wasn't going to be a big deal. Sounds familiar, huh.
> 
> 7 - like in any abusive relationship, you're beaten down. You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults. Even though you know of situations where you've come out worse for the way the relationship is, you defend the abuser.  First with a fake air of calm, then with a seething rage. And when people offer you a way out, you go right back to the abuse.
> 
> 8 - the relationship is so twisted, you so believe everything you're told about what's real and what's not, they will literally put you in situations that could kill you. And you say you're doing it willingly, proudly, but the fact is you're a shell of the idealistic person you used to be. You just got in with the wrong crowd, but it's too late to get out now because people might think less of you. Which is all part of what you were told in #1. Only they understand you...
> 
> False consciousness at work.. Covid denial at work


Are you talking about COVID deniers or Democrat politicians?  Seems like it fits both.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Kicker4Life said:


> Wow…the hypocrisy in this post is fascinating!
> 
> It’s like, “Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.”


#2 in full effect.. and I’m not talking about a bodily function


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> While I really have no clue what you're talking about, you seem to be a prisoner of two camps, monolithic thinking compounded by Covid myopia.  Covid is serious, hence why my family is vaccinated, but let's not kill a mosquito with dynamite.


1500 people died last night in the US… in Texas 350 people died last night… deflecting and projection are not going to work…
If you told a person they had a 1 in 1000 chance of winning millions in the lottery they would be ecstatic and think their chances were amazing. If you told some of these people they had a 1 in 1000 chance of dying over the next year they would think that's never going to happen.



"That's a 99.9% chance of survival, what's the big deal?!?"


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> #2 in full effect.. and I’m not talking about a bodily function


Says the person classifying and judging others…….


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> 1500 people died last night in the US… in Texas 350 people died last night… deflecting and projection are not going to work…
> If you told a person they had a 1 in 1000 chance of winning millions in the lottery they would be ecstatic and think their chances were amazing. If you told some of these people they had a 1 in 1000 chance of dying over the next year they would think that's never going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> "That's a 99.9% chance of survival, what's the big deal?!?"
> 
> 
> 
> Tell this to my father who goes on about 'no excess mortality'


I would suspect I have a higher chance of dying over the course of 18 months just being behind the wheel of a car.  Have you ever seen me drive?


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> I would suspect I have a higher chance of dying over the course of 18 months just being behind the wheel of a car.  Have you ever seen me drive?


Car accidents are not the 3rd leading cause of death in the country… Covid was # 1in the beginning of the year before the vaccine.  4000+ a day


----------



## crush

Mavs has gone full blown EOTL.  This is a good place to let it all out.


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> Car accidents are not the 3rd leading cause of death in the country… Covid was # 1in the beginning of the year before the vaccine.  4000+ a day


I'll take that as a No, that you haven't seen me drive.


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> Where does this mindset come from that we can eliminate or control the virus...is it just the arrogance of so-called experts?  I'm all for mitigation but I'm not sure how successful our mitigation measures have even been.


Go to Florida or Texas for a week…or you can see Texas mitigation efforts on the John Hopkins website and their Pro Virus Governor Abbot anti mask policy .


----------



## MSK357

Soccermaverick said:


> Car accidents are not the 3rd leading cause of death in the country… Covid was # 1in the beginning of the year before the vaccine.  4000+ a day


Funny thing about the high number of covid deaths,  they lump cancer, obesity, gun shots, etc as long as you tested positive for covid before you die. Sometimes you just need to have symptoms if a test wasn't done before death. 

Fun fact, look at how many people died from the typical flu during a non covid year, higher than you might think and with similar symptoms and seasons. I wonder how many deaths labeled as covid without a covid test was really the flu.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Crush 

”May the all-loving Lord bless your sweet, innocent, pure heart, amen.”

Awww sweetie I’ll be praying for you


----------



## Kicker4Life

How on earth did Joe Rogan survive….he really beat the odds.


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> Crush
> 
> *”May the all-loving Lord bless your sweet, innocent, pure heart, amen.”*
> 
> Awww sweetie I’ll be praying for you


My heart is deceitful above all things, who can understand it but God?  I am not innocent.  I am guilty of lying & cheating.  I played Monopoly back in the day and I usually won fair & square.  However, I hated my adopted cousin.  It was Crush vs Vinnie.  I  was banker and I took some extra $500 bills when he wasn't looking, I won;t lie and that was cheating.  I beat my cousin. That night, I had a nightmare that I was hauled off to jail and was some dudes boyfriend for 6 months.  I stole a candy bar and got caught and I got scared straight to never do that again.  I am not sweet either.  My wife is the Honey Bee.  I poke & pour salt in the wound.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> No contradiction intended… control will be a gray area… let’s hope the vaccine can keep up… you go to war with what you got!


channeling your inner rumsfeld?


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Plan B is available …  make it free.. oh we don’t want women controlling their bodies!


channeling your inner psaki?


----------



## crush

what-happened said:


> channeling your inner rumsfeld?


Look how rummy smiles about the "next" attack.  Dude lost a trillion on 9/10.  War $uck$!!!


----------



## Soccermaverick

Florida’s mitigation plan is not working


15 Miami-Dade educators die from COVID-19 in 10 days

BTW, school started in Miami-Dade on Aug 23rd.

So 15 teachers in 9 school days. By the end of the school year Miami-Dade should have about negative 200 teachers. Florida man's dream of being education free is finally within reach.


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> Florida’s mitigation plan is not working
> 
> 
> 15 Miami-Dade educators die from COVID-19 in 10 days
> 
> BTW, school started in Miami-Dade on Aug 23rd.
> 
> So 15 teachers in 9 school days. By the end of the school year Miami-Dade should have about negative 200 teachers. Florida man's dream of being education free is finally within reach.


RIP to the 15, I mean that 100%.  Were they all vaxxed?


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> RIP to the 15, I mean that 100%.  Were they all vaxxed?


We’ll they certainly didn’t progress through all 7 stages of Covid due to school related exposure in 9 days time.


----------



## crush

N00B said:


> We’ll they certainly didn’t progress through all 7 stages of Covid due to school related exposure in 9 days time.


That wasn't my question


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> As a person with child hood asthma.. I know what this is… if you think you can out smart this virus you are wrong.. get vaccinated.. and to those who have had or think it’s not a big deal… remember chicken pox’s comes back as shingles.. what will Covid 19 come back as… No One knows. Keep playing doctor and find out.


…I.. can’t… figure out… how you can.. not understand… punctuation.

The above quote is your only contribution to this post and it is both misleading and inaccurate.  

Credibility counts if you have any to convince anyone of anything.


----------



## N00B

crush said:


> That wasn't my question


That was another gross misrepresentation from the original poster, which further diminishes their credibility.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Kicker4Life said:


> How on earth did Joe Rogan survive….he really beat the odds.


Looks like stage 3.. I think he will be ok.. he’s vaccinated…









						Oscar de la Hoya withdraws from comeback bout as he fights COVID-19 infection
					

Oscar de la Hoya has tested positive for COVID-19 and will not fight Vitor Belfort next weekend in Los Angeles.




					abc7.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

N00B said:


> …I.. can’t… figure out… how you can.. not understand… punctuation.
> 
> The above quote is your only contribution to this post and it is both misleading and inaccurate.
> 
> 
> Credibility counts if you have any to convince anyone of anything.


Here is a sentence I know you know well

I bet your parents change the subject when their friends ask about you.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Looks like stage 3.. I think he will be ok.. he’s vaccinated…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oscar de la Hoya withdraws from comeback bout as he fights COVID-19 infection
> 
> 
> Oscar de la Hoya has tested positive for COVID-19 and will not fight Vitor Belfort next weekend in Los Angeles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com


Is that your prognosis Dr.?


----------



## N00B

what-happened said:


> Is that your prognosis Dr.?


He’s vaccinated, so the outlook is good.  Unless @Soccermaverick is trying to undermine confidence in COVID vaccines.


----------



## Soccermaverick

N00B said:


> We’ll they certainly didn’t progress through all 7 stages of Covid due to school related exposure in 9 days time.


Here’s the False consciousness I was talking about… this noob instead of being greatful that Oscar is recovering is attacking me for pointing out his recovery.. 

They don’t want you to know the danger … they want you to be ignorant..  false consciousness driven by greed!


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> Here is a sentence I know you know well
> 
> I bet your parents change the subject when their friends ask about you.


“You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults.”


----------



## Soccermaverick

N00B said:


> “You repeat the words in the way they taught you. You repeat the answers. You repeat the words you're told are insults.”


Oh no that was a Fresh one for you…would you like another…?


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Here’s the False consciousness I was talking about… this noob instead of being greatful that Oscar is recovering is attacking me for pointing out his recovery..
> 
> *They* don’t want you to know the danger … they want you to be ignorant..  false consciousness driven by greed!


Who's they?


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> BTW my vaccine dates were Jan 8 and Feb 4… the booster can’t come soon enough! So don’t think I don’t have a vested interest!


Wow, you were in CDPH vaccination priority group 1A like me!

Who knew we had so much in common?!


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> Oh no that was a Fresh one for you…would you like another…?


Are you practicing your ‘grooming’ skills?


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> He’s vaccinated, so the outlook is good.  Unless @Soccermaverick is trying to undermine confidence in COVID vaccines.


@saucermaverik is trolling.  It's like a self licking ice cream cone - fun to watch as the unraveling occurs.


----------



## Soccermaverick

what-happened said:


> Who's they?


2 groups
The uneducated Pro virus anti mask / vaccine deniers who thrive on the chaos… and business interests that are pushing from behind the scenes to survive..

Uptown Sinclair wrote


> It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> 2 groups
> The uneducated Pro virus anti mask / vaccine deniers who thrive on the chaos… and business interests that are pushing from behind the scenes to survive..
> 
> Uptown Sinclair wrote


Ok...hmmm.  I thought you were a respiratory therapist. But I'm thinking  you may just be a very confused Alex Jone.  Happy Friday indeed.  Is it happy hour for you?


----------



## Soccermaverick

what-happened said:


> @saucermaverik is trolling.  It's like a self licking ice cream cone - fun to watch as the unraveling occurs.


That’s all you got… that’s all you can factor.. 

All I can say is good luck at Norco. That will be your greatest achievement.


----------



## Soccermaverick

what-happened said:


> Ok...hmmm.  I thought you were a respiratory therapist. But I'm thinking  you may just be a very confused Alex Jone.  Happy Friday indeed.  Is it happy hour for you?


Remember at the doctors office when you lie about Covid symptoms and they find out.. they remember who you are and not in a good way.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> That’s all you got… that’s all you can factor..
> 
> All I can say is good luck at Norco. That will be your greatest achievement.


Norco?  What/where is that?  You are great at this.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> Remember at the doctors office when you lie about Covid symptoms and they find out.. they remember who you are and not in a good way.


How does one lie about Covid symptoms?  That just doesn't make sense.  Do you preface your discussion by dismissing Covid outright followed by describing symptoms that present with Covid?  weird.  

I'm taking notes in order to be prepared when I go to the "Dr's office".


----------



## Speed

I am sorry to


watfly said:


> I'm pro-vax, but this is just straight up fear mongering (and yes I fell for a 100% troll post).  Like I've said before, compliance through fear only works sometimes for churches and totalitarian countries.
> 
> Let me take the emotion out of it for you and look at the data.  In my county, San Diego, in the last 18 months you've had a 99.98% chance of not suffering the alleged 7 stages of Covid if your under 60.  (Which I believe is the age group that applies to all of us on this forum, with the possible exception of Espola).
> 
> Keep in mind that vaccines are not risk free.  My teen daughter was the first to get the vaccine in the family because she volunteers for seniors.  She has had a very troubling side effect for the last 5 months.  She will not be getting a booster if recommended.


Sorry to  hear about your daughter. Can you share the side effect? If you're comfortable....


----------



## watfly

Speed said:


> I am sorry to
> 
> Sorry to  hear about your daughter. Can you share the side effect? If you're comfortable....


Thanks, Speed.  I'd prefer to keep it private.

I hadn't heard of it prior to it happening, but, I saw one article that said there has been 140,000 reported cases, but it hasn't been disclosed as a known side effect.  If it were, it might have a signiFicant impact on a cErtain deMogrAphic's wilLingness to gEt vaccinated.


----------



## Soccermaverick

FYI..typical false consciousness statement 

“a 99.98% chance of not suffering the alleged 7 stages of Covid if your under 60

this is NOT alleged… 650,000++ people have shown this to be true.

“a 99.98% chance of not suffering the alleged 7 stages of Covid if your under 60









						COVID-19 Vaccine Facts
					

What you need to know about COVID-19 vaccines, myths and facts.




					www.cdc.gov
				












						Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine
					

What you need to know about getting a COVID-19 vaccination.




					www.cdc.gov
				





What does full approval of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine mean?

It means Pfizer’s shot for people 16 and older has now undergone the same rigorous testing and regulatory review as dozens of other long-established vaccines.

COVID-19 vaccines in the U.S. were initially rolled out under the Food and Drug Administration’s emergency use authorization, which allows the agency to speed the availability of medical products during public health emergencies.


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> *What does full approval of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine mean?
> 
> It means *((According to Dr. Mavs))* Pfizer’s shot for people 16 and older has now undergone the same rigorous testing and regulatory review as dozens of other long-established vaccines.*


Good morning Mavs.  Thanks for the information.  Are you sure you're not a sales rep for Pfizer?  Be honest with us.  My buddy wife is killing it this year btw selling drugs.  Just bought a $2,000,000 house up in Westlake Village.  Record bonuses for her and on pace for $400,000+ this year.  Blood thinner is #1 drug she sells to sales reps WHO sell to the Docs.  My buddy is doing loans ((starting to dry up)) and was making $25,000 a month. The wonderful life of the Hamster Wheel.  I jumped off that wheel long ago and will never jump back on.  The energy level is at an all time low.  My wife and I are will be going into the wilderness to mediate and get ready to help the earth heal from all the pain of thousands of years of being a slave to the system.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> You know what Logan's Run and the 7 Stages of Covid have in common?  They're both fiction.


I think it was a description of the patients Karen sees at work.

You both have a selection bias.  She sees the sick people.  You see the healthy ones.  Both groups exist.

If you want to know the ratio of each, about 14,000 people are being admitted to hositals for covid each day. 









						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				




That’s out of about 160,000 new cases each day.  So, if you are diagnosed with delta, you have about a 9 percent chance of going to the hospital.   

Lower with vax and higher with no vax, of course.

But most of us try to avoid taking a 9%, or 1%, or 30% chance of hospitalization.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I think it was a description of the patients Karen sees at work.
> 
> You both have a selection bias.  She sees the sick people.  You see the healthy ones.  Both groups exist.
> 
> If you want to know the ratio of each, about 14,000 people are being admitted to hositals for covid each day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s out of about 160,000 new cases each day.  So, if you are diagnosed with delta, you have about a 9 percent chance of going to the hospital.
> 
> Lower with vax and higher with no vax, of course.
> 
> But most of us try to avoid taking a 9%, or 1%, or 30% chance of hospitalization.


The moral of the story is to stay away from a hospital.  How does one do that you ask dad?  Let Crush explains the 17 basic fundamentals to a healthy life style and a happy life   This is how to do it Dad.  If you can;t do #1 to start, you can;t find out the true secrets to life's riches & treasures.  Impossible, 100%.  BTW, this is free advice to all my forum friends and to those WHO hate me because of my message of freedom for all.  
1.  Stop eating meat
2.  Stop drinking alcohol ((for now, maybe a few pops later))
3.  Eat only Organic ((no GMO or gluten if you can))
4.  Stop eating bread
5.  Drink lemon water and celery juice first thing. No more coffee from Starbucks
6.  Take a walk with Oreo ((your dog if you have one or two)) for 15 minutes and then take Iccy Bear for 15 minutes
7.  Meditate and release
8.  Start looking for new customers
9.  Killer fruit smoothie
10.  More calls
11.  Lunch ((no meat))
12.  Hunt for customers
13.  Nuts in between
14.  Pound the phones
15.  Take salad and head to the beach to thank God for another day to be alive
16.  Surf, boogie board or body surf til sunset 
17.  Eat killer dinner and spend the evening with my wife.  

Today, I'm hanging with my boy Colin today.  He's from Socal but now lives outside of Vegas.  He's my best friend who knows the good, bad and ugly about my life.  Nice to have a man who will listen and not judge.  Were going to surprise my dd at work.  He's God Father and my dd mentor in so much.  Again, nice to have men who will treat female with respect and help give advice.  Colin worked at TGI Friday and is helping my dd get more tips.  Anyway, after that were going to my friends private cove and body surf.  After that, were going to make a fire and have a special dinner to thank God for our 30 year friendship.  Crash on da beach and then if the waves are good, will do a morning session.  All healthy eating too.  That's how you do life bro.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> You both have a selection bias.  She sees the sick people.  You see the healthy ones.  Both groups exist.


Who are you kidding, we're all guilty of selection bias.  The bigger issue is Covid myopia and failure to understand costs vs benefits.  The other problem is two box mentality.   Even if your vaccinated and wear a mask, but question any of the two based on good faith information you're labeled anti-vax, anti-mask and pro-virus.   Don't question, don't acknowledge contrary information, just comply aka fear driven and emotional decision making.


----------



## espola

watfly said:


> Who are you kidding, we're all guilty of selection bias.  The bigger issue is Covid myopia and failure to understand costs vs benefits.  The other problem is two box mentality.   Even if your vaccinated and wear a mask, but question any of the two based on good faith information you're labeled anti-vax, anti-mask and pro-virus.   Don't question, don't acknowledge contrary information, just comply aka fear driven and emotional decision making.


Cost vs benefit can be misleading.  We discussed a study a while back on this forum that compared an expensive treatment to a cheap placebo.  The treatment produced much better results than the placebo, but the placebo also produced some "cures".  On a pure cost/benefit basis, the placebo was better than the treatment.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> But most of us try to avoid taking a 9%, or 1%, or 30% chance of hospitalization.


Your lifetime chances of going to the hospital from a car accident are slightly more than 10%. Your lifetime chances of dying in a car accident are slightly south of .5%. Your kids lifetime chances of going to the hospital playing contact sports are about 5% and of need some kind of robust medical intervention close to 40% but you let your kid play sports (which frankly for you I find a bit surprising…the stats say over the course of a career it is surprisingly dangerous).  Your life time chances of winding up in the hospital with flu are about 15%.


----------



## met61

Live with it.
cc: Australia


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433917680965275655


----------



## Bruddah IZ

what-happened said:


> Print this on leaflets and drop them on the hordes of unvaxxed.  Should work..


Or just go Aussie on them!


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I think it was a description of the patients Karen sees at work.
> 
> You both have a selection bias.  She sees the sick people.  You see the healthy ones.  Both groups exist.
> 
> If you want to know the ratio of each, about 14,000 people are being admitted to hositals for covid each day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s out of about 160,000 new cases each day.  So, if you are diagnosed with delta, you have about a 9 percent chance of going to the hospital.
> 
> Lower with vax and higher with no vax, of course.
> 
> But most of us try to avoid taking a 9%, or 1%, or 30% chance of hospitalization.


I would talk to Newsom about those statistics.   Based on his tier system we should all be under significant restrictions. Weird that we are not.  It's almost like he doesn't want to do it because it would impact his recall election.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

MSK357 said:


> It would be nice if you broke down who out of 650k died, at what age, and how many pre existing conditions.


There's no time for that bullshit.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Vinay Prasad correctly writes: “When the history books are written about the use of non-pharmacologic measures during this pandemic, we will look as pre-historic and barbaric and tribal as our ancestors during the plagues of the middle ages.”


----------



## Bruddah IZ

SoccerFan4Life said:


> COVID-19 deaths by age U.S. 2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> Between the beginning of January 2020 and November 2, 2022, of the 1,065,276 deaths caused by COVID-19 in the United States, around 280,340 had occurred among those aged 85 years and older.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mostly over 60 but the middle age group is growing with the delta variant.      Let’s see what happens in the next few months.


Probably the same thing the Life Insurance actuaries tell us via premiums.


----------



## watfly

MSK357 said:


> It would be nice if you broke down who out of 650k died, at what age, and how many pre existing conditions.


Based on the CDC statistics about 33,000 have died solely of Covid.  The remaining 617,000 that have died have on average 4 other causes of death.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> The risk is real…


That's the same thing my life insurance premiums tell me.  If I am in denial then I just don't pay.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> … let’s hope the vaccine can keep up…


Why would they if mandates required vax for those least at risk?


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> … what age is acceptable to die of covid. ?


If you have a Whole life policy, 121 y.o. and they pay out whether you're dead or alive.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> Florida’s mitigation plan is not working
> 
> 
> 15 Miami-Dade educators die from COVID-19 in 10 days
> 
> BTW, school started in Miami-Dade on Aug 23rd.
> 
> So 15 teachers in 9 school days. By the end of the school year Miami-Dade should have about negative 200 teachers. Florida man's dream of being education free is finally within reach.


Hanapaa!


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> FYI..typical false consciousness statement
> 
> What does full approval of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine mean?
> 
> It means Pfizer’s shot for people 16 and older has now undergone the same *rigorous testing and regulatory review *as dozens of other long-established vaccines.
> 
> *COVID-19 vaccines in the U.S. were initially rolled out under the Food and Drug Administration’s emergency use authorization, which allows the agency to speed the availability of medical products during public health emergencies.*


EUA's are a nice precedent for bypassing *rigorous testing and regulatory review *in the future.  Shocking isn't it?  Tyrants typically have a sense of false consciousness.  Moral posturing cracks me up.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

_[T]he majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.--  TJ_


----------



## Bruddah IZ

As an employee of the Commonwealth of Virginia, I had the honor of receiving an email message: “Vaccinations and Mask Wearing.” The message spoke of further requirements:
Vaccination remains the most effective means of protection. We know the vaccines work—since January, *more than 98% of COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths have been among unvaccinated Virginians*. _Do your part and get your shot_. 
I guess the 98% line is used pervasively. My father urges my 20-year-old daughter, who has had Covid, to get vaccinated. He gives the same 98% line. I guess it’s repeated on television or in the newspaper. I come from a family of lifelong lefties.

*The 98% propaganda is the fallacy of mistaking an “If A, then B” statement with its inverse. I don’t know how true the 98% claim is, but let’s suppose it’s true. In fact, let’s suppose it’s 100%, not 98%.

That’s the “If A, then B” statement. If vaccinated (A), then no hospitalization and death from Covid (B).

The inverse of an “If A, then B” statement is: “If B, then A.”

In this case, the inverse would be: “If one avoids hospitalization and death from Covid, then one is vaccinated.” That statement is false.

The truth of an “If A, then B” statement does not by any means ensure the truth of the inverse (“If B, then A”).

For example: “If one is a pediatrician, then one is a doctor” does not imply “If one is a doctor, then one is a pediatrician.”*

My father, in fact, is a pediatrician, now retired. He urges my daughter (his granddaughter) to get vaccinated. He tries to justify that urging by saying: “Everyone who is vaccinated avoids hospitalization and death from Covid.”

But if there are other surefire ways to avoid hospitalization and death, the justification may be a complete _non sequitur_.

We can equally say, I tell Dad:

Everyone who has recovered from Covid infection avoids subsequent hospitalization and death.
Everyone who is 20 years old avoids subsequent hospitalization and death.
My daughter, then, on two counts, doesn’t need a vaccination to avoid hospitalization and death from Covid. Meanwhile, there is so much about the vaccination, its development, its rollout, its liability status, and so on that is unknown and irregular—downright bizarre. The matter is not so simple.

Authoritarianism indoctrinates its votaries and buffaloes others into a false and oversimplified worldview, in which the only important factor is vaccination. But the causes of hospitalization and death are multifarious.

The causes that pertain to the individual are known best by the individual. Contrary to diktats, freedom enables individuals to act on the basis of his or her particular conditions, such as whether she has had Covid, whether she is young, whether she has comorbidities, and so on.

*Covid authoritarians might say that everyone has to be vaccinated because of spreading. That, too, doesn’t acknowledge natural immunity. As for the rest, the possibility of asymptomatic transmission of the Covid-19 virus from the unvaccinated is extremely low. So again, all the authoritarians seem to have is propaganda.

Tomorrow my daughter and I shall go visit Dad. I’m vaccinated. But we’ll do a test the day of, just to make sure. Focused Protection.*


----------



## Kicker4Life

watfly said:


> I would talk to Newsom about those statistics.   Based on his tier system we should all be under significant restrictions. Weird that we are not.  It's almost like he doesn't want to do it because it would impact his recall election.


Just wait till late Sept.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

espola said:


> I have COPD and I ended up in the hospital at about stage 3 in your description above after coughing for days and not able to clear my lungs.  My wife eventually called 911 after I was unable to walk to her car so she could take me to urgent care.  One night in the hospital "cured" me -- I can breathe easily now with help of twice-daily inhaler usage, but I still have the COPD.
> 
> Feeling your own lungs killing you slowly is no picnic.


That's about 16 million of you in the U.S..


----------



## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Just wait till late Sept.


Not how politics works.  

They won’t go back to significant restrictions at this point.  Too unpopular.

Easier to just try to get vaccines out to anyone who will listen, and privately shrug when two thousand or so anti-vax folks die this winter.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Not how politics works.
> 
> They won’t go back to significant restrictions at this point.  Too unpopular.
> 
> Easier to just try to get vaccines out to anyone who will listen, and privately shrug when two thousand or so anti-vax folks die this winter.


I know you have a sarcastic streak but your take is just wrong.  The issue in your state is messaging to your black and hispanic communities.  They make up the majority of the unvaccinated.  Until someone figures it out, they will remain unvaccinated.  Are they anti-vax?  maybe.  I bet their natural immunity is through the roof though.  While many stayed home last year, they had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet.  It's a shame the message is so politcial.  As a progressive utopia, CA should be on top of this and ensuring those that need  the vaccine get it.  Or at least get better messaging other than get jabbed or else.  

This delta surge is at least increasing their vaccination rates.  Fear is driving them, not the public health system.  Let's work on getting teachers vaccinated, and leave the kids alone.


----------



## espola

what-happened said:


> I bet their natural immunity is through the roof though.


why would you bet that?


----------



## N00B

espola said:


> why would you bet that?


I believe it was the next sentence in that post, which clearly insinuated that a greater percentage of the population in question may work in essential ‘in-person’ industries.


----------



## espola

N00B said:


> I believe it was the next sentence in that post, which clearly insinuated that a greater percentage of the population in question may work in essential ‘in-person’ industries.


So you think they are immune by prior infection, which may show up in antibody tests?


----------



## what-happened

N00B said:


> I believe it was the next sentence in that post, which clearly insinuated that a greater percentage of the population in question may work in essential ‘in-person’ industries.


He knows the deal..


----------



## what-happened

espola said:


> So you think they are immune by prior infection, which may show up in antibody tests?


You catch on quick.


----------



## dad4

espola said:


> So you think they are immune by prior infection, which may show up in antibody tests?


Shows up in county case data.  

For SCC, Latinos are getting covid at twice the rate of the overall population.  Whites and Asians are getting covid at a little under half the rate of the overall population.

So, yes.  Our Latino residents have a higher rate of natural immunity than our white and Asian residents.

The hints at racial bias were neither warranted nor helpful.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Keep negotiating, wheeling and dealing …you may find out.









						Florida teen who was hospitalized with COVID wants to get vaccinated, says others should too
					

A Florida teen who spent 11 days on a ventilator after she contracted COVID-19 has a message for her peers and others.




					abc7.com


----------



## Soccermaverick

dad4 said:


> Shows up in county case data.
> 
> For SCC, Latinos are getting covid at twice the rate of the overall population.  Whites and Asians are getting covid at a little under half the rate of the overall population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Surges Nearly 700% In South Dakota After Sturgis Motorcycle Rally—An Even Higher Rate Than Last Year
> 
> 
> Parts of South Dakota that had very few coronavirus cases are seeing a significant jump in infections and hospitalizations after the 2021 Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid Surges Nearly 700% In South Dakota After Sturgis Motorcycle Rally—An Even Higher Rate Than Last Year
> 
> 
> Parts of South Dakota that had very few coronavirus cases are seeing a significant jump in infections and hospitalizations after the 2021 Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, yes.  Our Latino residents have a higher rate of natural immunity than our white and Asian residents.
> 
> The hints at racial bias were neither warranted nor helpful.


South Dakota has the highest rate of infection in the US this month. That’s also interesting.What demographic is that again?


----------



## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> South Dakota has the highest rate of infection in the US this month. That’s also interesting.What demographic is that again?


Unfortunately a demographic with a high BMI,…
and a latitude that… who am I kidding, you get respitory Illnesses after all. (These extra … are… kinda fun…)

Care to be a bit more direct with your comment?

Always interested in the opinions of the Tier 1A Covid vaccine group.  Which box did you check off there BTW?


----------



## dad4

Soccermaverick said:


> South Dakota has the highest rate of infection in the US this month. That’s also interesting.What demographic is that again?


No need for me to take the bait on that.

My county has a large underhoused population who could not switch to work by zoom.  Any group with the same housing and work conditions would have had a rough time of it, too.


----------



## Grace T.

Soccermaverick said:


> South Dakota has the highest rate of infection in the US this month. That’s also interesting.What demographic is that again?


The state with the highest rate of increase right now is actually Maine. A mix of red and blue…somehow though I bet it’s Ron desantis’s fault.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> The state with the highest rate of increase right now is actually Maine. A mix of red and blue…somehow though I bet it’s Ron desantis’s fault.


Sill looking for high percentage rates of increase in places with low past infections?

You could just sort everyone by [ seroprevalence estimate + Vaccine rate ].   The low end of the sort will give you a nice list of places you can use to falsely claim that various NPI are not effective.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Sill looking for high percentage rates of increase in places with low past infections?
> 
> You could just sort everyone by [ seroprevalence estimate + Vaccine rate ].   The low end of the sort will give you a nice list of places you can use to falsely claim that various NPI are not effective.


Errr. Maine only has a very limited mask mandate (schools and certain other areas).

I agree you can sort it that way but that’s also bad news for any sort of herd immunity threshold since pre widespread vaccinated and pre the current wave, the seroprevalence estimate for Los Angeles stood at just under 50% (as did India pre delta in most major cities).

the line is moving northward. You yourself said the dakotas had foolishly blown through natural immunity. We’ll get to see how that holds up too.


----------



## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Errr. Maine only has a very limited mask mandate (schools and certain other areas).
> 
> I agree you can sort it that way but that’s also bad news for any sort of herd immunity threshold since pre widespread vaccinated and pre the current wave, the seroprevalence estimate for Los Angeles stood at just under 50% (as did India pre delta in most major cities).
> 
> the line is moving northward. You yourself said the dakotas had foolishly blown through natural immunity. We’ll get to see how that holds up too.


In the California dept of health regions tracker, for example, cases are falling in SoCal but rising in San Joaquin valley, the sierras, the Bay Area, and the Sacramento area…Northern California it’s too early to tell if still rising or now falling or plateaued.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

*bangladesh mask study:**do not believe the hype *
this is one of the worst studies i've ever seen in any field. it proves nothing apart from the credulity of many mask advocates.

people tend to call economics “the dismal science” because it’s so difficult to do controlled experiments. you cannot simply run the economy once with interest rates at 4% then again at 6% and compare. it’s inherently limiting to the discipline.

but this bangladesh study, originally published by “the national bureau of economic research” is so bad that i fear this is way past that. (newer version HERE but this the same study with new data cuts added.) even those legends of non-replication and bias injection in sociology and psychology would not accept a study like this. i have no idea how NBER fell for it.

this one would get you laughed out of a 7th grade science fair.

it violates pretty much every single tenet of setting up and running a randomized controlled experiment. its output is not even sound enough to be wrong. it’s complete gibberish.

truly, a dismal day for the dismal science and those pushing it into public health.

and yet the twitterati (and there are MANY) are treating this like some sort of gold standard study.

_“This should basically end any scientific debate about whether masks can be effective in combating covid at the population level,” Jason Abaluck... who helped lead the study said... calling it “a nail in the coffin”_
despite wild claims by the authors, it’s not.

this setup and execution is so unsound as to make it hard to even know where to start picking it apart, but it’s easy to throw shade and backing it up is the essence of debate and refutation, so let’s start with the basics on how to do a medical RCT.


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> South Dakota has the highest rate of infection in the US this month. That’s also interesting.What demographic is that again?


We could play the Red vs Blue game all day long.  The worst counties in terms of deaths per capita are actually blue.  Its a fools errand to compare.  It also shows that someone is a prisoner of binary thinking. There are so many other variables that impact Covid results.  Covid mandates are influenced by party.  Covid results are not, because the virus couldnt care less about party, and as we've seen the virus cares very little about any attempts to control it.   The only correlation between party and Covid is on CNN and MSNBC.  If you want to see a better correlation based on party, check out unemployment statistics.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> We could play the Red vs Blue game all day long.  The worst counties in terms of deaths per capita are actually blue.  Its a fools errand to compare.  It also shows that someone is a prisoner of binary thinking. There are so many other variables that impact Covid results.  Covid mandates are influenced by party.  Covid results are not, because the virus couldnt care less about party, and as we've seen the virus cares very little about any attempts to control it.   The only correlation between party and Covid is on CNN and MSNBC.  If you want to see a better correlation based on party, check out unemployment statistics.


Ha!  Thanks for teeing this up.

My GMU Econ colleague Bryan Caplan ponders Americans’ experiment in federalist dictatorship. A slice:

In short, America is now an elective dictatorship. Unlike almost all historical dictatorships, however, these are dictatorships _within a federal system_. Every governor makes it up as he goes along… but he only makes it up for his own state. Elections will still happen, possibly replacing one dictator with another. But until those days of reckoning, whoever won the last election has a remarkably free hand to do as he pleases.
What has this freakish experiment in federalist dictatorship taught us? I’m curious to hear your thoughts, but here are the biggest lessons I’ve drawn thus far.

1. The variance of policy under federalist dictatorship has been vast. My friend in Alabama barely remembers the lockdown because it lasted so briefly. Californians endured major – and repeated – restrictions on their freedom for months at a time.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

watfly said:


> We could play the Red vs Blue game all day long.  The worst counties in terms of deaths per capita are actually blue.  Its a fools errand to compare.  It also shows that someone is a prisoner of binary thinking. There are so many other variables that impact Covid results.  Covid mandates are influenced by party.  Covid results are not, because the virus couldnt care less about party, and as we've seen the virus cares very little about any attempts to control it.   The only correlation between party and Covid is on CNN and MSNBC.  If you want to see a better correlation based on party, check out unemployment statistics.


All 50 US governors have been vaccinated, so none of them are literal “anti-vaxxers.”  Still, many governors staunchly oppose mandatory vaccination.  What’s their motive?  High vaccination rates don’t merely make governors’ lives easier.  They also reduce resistance to every other expression of normalcy.  *Could it be that governors who oppose vaccines mandates actually do so… because freedom?*


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Shows up in county case data.
> 
> For SCC, Latinos are getting covid at twice the rate of the overall population.  Whites and Asians are getting covid at a little under half the rate of the overall population.
> 
> So, yes.  Our Latino residents have a higher rate of natural immunity than our white and Asian residents.
> 
> The hints at racial bias were neither warranted nor helpful.


It's not racial bias, it's data that should be used by public health officials.  Your comments on standing on the sidelines and watching the unvaxxed die by the thousands help?


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> We could play the Red vs Blue game all day long.  The worst counties in terms of deaths per capita are actually blue.  Its a fools errand to compare.  It also shows that someone is a prisoner of binary thinking. There are so many other variables that impact Covid results.  Covid mandates are influenced by party.  Covid results are not, because the virus couldnt care less about party, and as we've seen the virus cares very little about any attempts to control it.   The only correlation between party and Covid is on CNN and MSNBC.  If you want to see a better correlation based on party, check out unemployment statistics.


It's a shame that public health efforts have been sabotoged by party clowns.


----------



## Bruddah IZ




----------



## Soccermaverick

I don’t know any one with Covid … it just a joke.., right /s









						Former Lakers player Cedric Ceballos hospitalized in ICU with COVID-19
					

Former Lakers player and NBA All-Star Cedric Ceballos announced Tuesday that he has been hospitalized with COVID-19 for more than a week.




					abc7.com


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> I don’t know any one with Covid … it just a joke.., right /s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Lakers player Cedric Ceballos hospitalized in ICU with COVID-19
> 
> 
> Former Lakers player and NBA All-Star Cedric Ceballos announced Tuesday that he has been hospitalized with COVID-19 for more than a week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7.com


It's certainly unfortunate and dangerous since he has a history of heart disease.  Great Suns player.

Who doesn't know anyone who's had covid?


----------



## watfly

This is one of the tragic outcomes of Covid myopia and fear mongering.  An outcome that was avoidable.  Your odds of dying from cancer are significantly greater than dying from Covid (although your cancer survival odds are much better if its caught early), yet cancer screenings were canceled for the first few months of the pandemic because they were considered elective.   Then it appears patients avoided cancer screenings due to the fear of Covid.









						Basics of Cancer
					

Get the basics on cancer from the experts at WebMD.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> This is one of the tragic outcomes of Covid myopia and fear mongering.  An outcome that was avoidable.  Your odds of dying from cancer are significantly greater than dying from Covid (although your cancer survival odds are much better if its caught early), yet cancer screenings were canceled for the first few months of the pandemic because they were considered elective.   Then it appears patients avoided cancer screenings due to the fear of Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basics of Cancer
> 
> 
> Get the basics on cancer from the experts at WebMD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


Compare annual rates.  Cancer and covid are about equal.  Both are about 600K per year for the period you are talking about.  (the period when people were most likely to delay cancer screenings:   April 2020 to April 2021)

And, if people had not changed their behavior last spring, it’s fair to say that covid would have been a significantly larger cause of death.   The wave we saw last winter would have happened in April/May 2020, back when the fatality rate was higher because we did not know how to treat it.  Remember, you’re talking about a time when all we had was ventilators.  The same number of infections would have caused a lot more deaths.

That fear mongering delayed health screenings for cancer, which cost lives.  The same panic delayed the main covid spike 6-8 months, which saved lives.  

It is likely that the cancer screening would have been delayed no matter what you did.  If the local death count goes up, people are going to avoid the hospital.  You also would not have had the nursing staff to do the screenings.  They all would have been treating covid patients.


----------



## Kicker4Life

On the positive side, in the US 31,522,263 (and counting) people have recovered from Covid.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Compare annual rates.  Cancer and covid are about equal.  Both are about 600K per year for the period you are talking about.  (the period when people were most likely to delay cancer screenings:   April 2020 to April 2021)


Lol! No, that is not true.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

Reminder: The CDC/NIH/Fauci-backed pause of the J&J vaccine did more to invigorate vaccine hesitancy in the US than any other factor.


----------



## Soccermaverick

What stage does it begin to bother you or better yet when is it not just Covid fear mongering?

 An average of nearly 53 children a day were hospitalized with confirmed cases of Covid-19 from August 31 to September 6, according to CDC data.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Soccermaverick said:


> What stage does it begin to bother you or better yet when is it not just Covid fear mongering?
> 
> An average of nearly 53 children a day were hospitalized with confirmed cases of Covid-19 from August 31 to September 6, according to CDC data.


I’m sure 3x’s that were admitted to the Er for broken bones.  It’s fear lingering when you are consistently fed numbers out of context and extrapolating the exceptions as if they are the rule.  (Ie Anti Vax focusing on the small number of medical issues that arise post vax)

How many kids are admitted to the hospital each year with the flu?  We never tracked data like that until now so there is no context. 

Yet at the US Open, College Football, etc, there are 10’s of thousands people in an arena/stadium yelling and screaming Sam’s masks yet our kids are in classrooms for hours at a time wearing masks and being told they could be killing their family if they don’t  wear a mask (fear mongering).

31,667,507 recovered in the US as of today.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccermaverick said:


> What stage does it begin to bother you or better yet when is it not just Covid fear mongering?
> 
> An average of nearly 53 children a day were hospitalized with confirmed cases of Covid-19 from August 31 to September 6, according to CDC data.


Link? Out of how many children - all the US? Does this only count those hospitalized because of COVID versus those who went to the hospital for another reason and tested positive? Lazy post.

It is low if it is all the US and simply those who tested positive. I mean, are we talking about an average of 1 child per day per state is testing positive in the hospital? I would have thought a lot more would have tested positive given how contagious the delta variant is, under 12 are not vaccinated and school is back in session. Google search reveals about 74.2 million children under 18 in US. Math tells me 1% of that is 742,000. Divide that by 53 and get 14,000. So, at this rate in 14,000 days (38+ years), 1% of the children in the US will test positive for COVID in hospitals. You can't possibly be talking about in all the US, can you?


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccermaverick said:


> What stage does it begin to bother you or better yet when is it not just Covid fear mongering?
> 
> An average of nearly 53 children a day were hospitalized with confirmed cases of Covid-19 from August 31 to September 6, according to CDC data.


Wow...so about 1 kid per state. 

Clearly an issue right? 

NO!!!

Context matters. You have none. 

Kids are not at risk.


----------



## Soccermaverick

Desert Hound said:


> Wow...so about 1 kid per state.
> 
> Clearly an issue right?
> 
> NO!!!
> 
> Context matters. You have none.
> 
> Kids are not at risk.


That’s cute.. 2100+ people died yesterday in the US due to Covid.. how many kids lost a parent! 270+ in Texas alone.. number 2 cause of death now.

Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life.. The opportunists pushing anti mask anti vaccine rhetoric and hiding behind kids is disgusting..


----------



## Soccermaverick

kickingandscreaming said:


> Link? Out of how many children - all the US? Does this only count those hospitalized because of COVID versus those who went to the hospital for another reason and tested positive? Lazy post.
> 
> It is low if it is all the US and simply those who tested positive. I mean, are we talking about an average of 1 child per day per state is testing positive in the hospital? I would have thought a lot more would have tested positive given how contagious the delta variant is, under 12 are not vaccinated and school is back in session. Google search reveals about 74.2 million children under 18 in US. Math tells me 1% of that is 742,000. Divide that by 53 and get 14,000. So, at this rate in 14,000 days (38+ years), 1% of the children in the US will test positive for COVID in hospitals. You can't possibly be talking about in all the US, can you?


 You are on the toilet do your own research.. get your own link


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> That’s cute.. 2100+ people died yesterday in the US due to Covid.. how many kids lost a parent! 270+ in Texas alone.. number 2 cause of death now.
> 
> Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life.. The opportunists pushing anti mask anti vaccine rhetoric and hiding behind kids is disgusting..


Do  you not believe that natural immunity from prior infection provides better protection from reinfection than vaccinated immunity?


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> *That’s cute.. *2100+ people died yesterday in the US due to Covid.. how many kids lost a parent! 270+ in Texas alone.. number 2 cause of death now.
> 
> Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life.. The opportunists pushing anti mask anti vaccine rhetoric and hiding behind kids is disgusting..


Hey EOTL, how many avatars you got?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccermaverick said:


> You are on the toilet do your own research.. get your own link


Hahaha! EOTL, you never fail to amuse - although I do have mixed feelings about being amused by your mental illness. Get some help, man.


----------



## Soccermaverick

watfly said:


> Do  you not believe that natural immunity from prior infection provides better protection from reinfection than vaccinated immunity?


When you get the vaccine your body has a controlled response to the virus.

When you get Covid 19 your body ramps up differently. Not controlled in some individuals.

Unvaccinated ….what stage will you go to…? keep playing doctor and find  out.


----------



## Soccermaverick

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! EOTL, you never fail to amuse - although I do have mixed feelings about being amused by your mental illness. Get some help, man.


If you were the light at the end of the tunnel, I’d turn back around


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> When you get the vaccine your body has a controlled response to the virus.
> 
> When you get Covid 19 your body ramps up differently. Not controlled in some individuals.
> 
> Unvaccinated ….what stage will you go to…? keep playing doctor and find  out.


You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.  There is no question that natural immunity is just better.  What the conversation needs to be centered around are the risks of achieving natural immunity.  Vaccination plays a role, especially in reducing severity of illness in the at risk population.  Vaccines obviously are waning - we knew this would happen from the very beginning.  To completely discount the already infected is just asinine and medically dishonest.

Basically you are a mouth piece, sounding off with a very low level of understanding.  It's hilarious how little you know about most things, but this in particular demonstrates your lack of comphrehension.  

I would prescibe invermectin for your tds blindess..


----------



## Soccermaverick

what-happened said:


> You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.  There is no question that natural immunity is just better.  What the conversation needs to be centered around are the risks of achieving natural immunity.  Vaccination plays a role, especially in reducing severity of illness in the at risk population.  Vaccines obviously are waning - we knew this would happen from the very beginning.  To completely discount the already infected is just asinine and medically dishonest.
> 
> Basically you are a mouth piece, sounding off with a very low level of understanding.  It's hilarious how little you know about most things, but this in particular demonstrates your lack of comphrehension.
> 
> I would prescibe invermectin for your tds blindess..


The unvaccinated and you… in a nutshell

I find the fact that you lived this long both surprising and disappointing.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Link? Out of how many children - all the US? Does this only count those hospitalized because of COVID versus those who went to the hospital for another reason and tested positive? Lazy post.
> 
> It is low if it is all the US and simply those who tested positive. I mean, are we talking about an average of 1 child per day per state is testing positive in the hospital? I would have thought a lot more would have tested positive given how contagious the delta variant is, under 12 are not vaccinated and school is back in session. Google search reveals about 74.2 million children under 18 in US. Math tells me 1% of that is 742,000. Divide that by 53 and get 14,000. So, at this rate in 14,000 days (38+ years), 1% of the children in the US will test positive for COVID in hospitals. You can't possibly be talking about in all the US, can you?


In a bad year, 4x as many children are hospitalized for RSV, which is orders of magnitude much more threatening to children and (my own kid having suffered from long RSV) potentially much more debilitating.


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> Hahaha! EOTL, you never fail to amuse - although I do have mixed feelings about being amused by your mental illness. Get some help, man.


I think at this point it is relatively apparently that EOTL is back in some shape or another.


----------



## crush

Soccermaverick said:


> When you get the vaccine your body has a controlled response to the virus.
> 
> When you get Covid 19 your body ramps up differently. Not controlled in some individuals.
> 
> Unvaccinated ….what stage will you go to…? keep playing doctor and find  out.


Come on Mavs, this is a weak sauce take. God almighty gave me the best body a man could ask for.  I'm only tasked with taking good care of it.  I make sure to never eat todays meat or ice cream or booze.  I only eat veggies, fruits, nuts & salads for now.  Drink lots of water, no more booze.  This is the secret to feeling amazing.  Time to live with no fear of getting sick and just feel awesome.  My abs are now showing for all to see at da beach. I'm going to be the best I can be when I turn 55 in November.  I might take some pics just for you Mavs so you can see the before Crush pic ((2017 DL pic of me on the Hamster Wheel chasing the dream baby)) and the new Crush.  My wife is the must impressed of my abs and that makes me feel HOT! She is now running around too and taking her game to another level and she looks around 30, no joke.  If you stuff your face with shitty food, drink booze all night and inject things you have no clue about into your blood stream, your skin will not be soft and you will be one miserable fool.  Lastly Mavs, seriously listen; don't put something in your blood that you still have no idea the true ingredients.  That makes zero sense in my brain.  I see your still only using the 8% that were all allowed.  I crossed over to the other 92% and that's why your still hung up on the dualistic mind set of me right & you wrong.  We were all born into this. What is "this" you ask?  "Us vs Them." This life we were born into was stolen by some real bad assholes.  We didnt know so we all get a second chance to capitulate.  If you like playing with cheaters, liars, goal post movers and haters, then by all means keep getting boosters.  Lastly and I mean lastly, God loves you and I'm trying to love you too bro.  Look man, we all need some help.  Don;t let old Kicking & Screaming think he doesnt need any help.  We all could use a little hug now and then.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> I think at this point it is relatively apparently that EOTL is back in some shape or another.


I mean, can you imagine such an angry, fanatic just giving up because he has to change his screen name?


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> When you get the vaccine your body has a controlled response to the virus.
> 
> When you get Covid 19 your body ramps up differently. Not controlled in some individuals.
> 
> Unvaccinated ….what stage will you go to…? keep playing doctor and find  out.


So you disagree with the multiple studies that show natural immunity is stronger than vaccinated immunity?


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccermaverick said:


> That’s cute.. 2100+ people died yesterday in the US due to Covid.. how many kids lost a parent! 270+ in Texas alone.. number 2 cause of death now.
> 
> Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life.. The opportunists pushing anti mask anti vaccine rhetoric and hiding behind kids is disgusting..


So that is a nice way to move past your kid fear porn!

Kids are not at risk. 

I know the 53 kids hospitalized in the entire US in a day gave you the vapors. But that is 1 kid per state on average. 

Context is important. 

You do know that every day of the year 8-9k people die. 

What you don't get every day is the running total of every disease and every hospitalization for every disease or cause. If they did, people like you would be freaking out. 

Covid is here to stay. It is endemic. Going forward some years will be better some will be worse. 

Flu kills 30k at least every year. Sometimes over 100k. Nobody reports on the daily count. 

IF they did you would be freaking out. More kids die from the flu vs covid. If they reported that daily for years you would have been for the face diaper long ago. 

Context. 

By the way the big bad delta curve in the US is already trending downward. I miracle we got through it eh?


----------



## watfly

Soccermaverick said:


> The unvaccinated and you… in a nutshell
> 
> I find the fact that you lived this long both surprising and disappointing.


Do you believe the vaccinated should be given priority for ICU beds over the unvaccinated?  Do you believe smokers and fat people should be given a lower priority even if they're vaccinated?


----------



## watfly

It's apparent that the Covid fear mongers are incapable of understanding context and relative risk.  They can only think in terms of gross numbers.  Irrational fear obviously kills brain cells.


----------



## Desert Hound

Soccermaverick said:


> Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life


Again you have no idea. 

The vast majority of deaths are people 65 and over. Around 80% of all deaths to be exact. 

Those are not the ages of people with kids. 

So stop your fear mongering. Stop your fear. 

Covid is here to stay. Learn to live with it. 

You cannot run from it. Masks wont stop it. We cannot social distance the rest of our lives. 

Stop living in fear.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> The vast majority of deaths are people 65 and over. Around 80% of all deaths to be exact.
> 
> Those are not the ages of people with kids.


Wait, what?  Are you telling me I won't have any kids in 10 years?


----------



## Desert Hound

watfly said:


> Do you believe smokers and fat people should be given a lower priority even if they're vaccinated?


Ah...see you are asking for intellectual consistency. Not going to happen there. 

They have not thought through the implications of what they advocate.


----------



## what-happened

Soccermaverick said:


> The unvaccinated and you… in a nutshell
> 
> I find the fact that you lived this long both surprising and disappointing.


 I thought you would have had a more intellectual response. You are like that young child who wishes death on their own parents for not being allowed to eat candy before dinner. Take a deep breath, you will be ok.


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Do  you not believe that natural immunity from prior infection provides better protection from reinfection than vaccinated immunity?


I see no reason to believe the two are mutually exclusive.  I am vaccinated, but I figure my own odds of catching a mild case of delta are nowhere near zero.  No need to rush it, but it’s reasonably likely I’ll end up with both.

Quite a few vaccinated people are going to end up with boh natural and vaccinated immunity- either because they got vaccinated after infection, or because they had exposure after vaccination.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Soccermaverick said:


> You are on the toilet do your own research.. get your own link





Soccermaverick said:


> If you were the light at the end of the tunnel, I’d turn back around


You are searching for a light at the end of the tunnel when what you need to do is let YOUR little light shine. If you need further advice on this, please refer to @crush. His little light shines so bright that I regularly need dark sunglasses to observe (No offense, Crush). Also, if I don't get off the toilet soon, my wife is going to wonder what I am doing in here.


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> I see no reason to believe the two are mutually exclusive.  I am vaccinated, but I figure my own odds of catching a mild case of delta are nowhere near zero.  No need to rush it, but it’s reasonably likely I’ll end up with both.
> 
> Quite a few vaccinated people are going to end up with boh natural and vaccinated immunity- either because they got vaccinated after infection, or because they had exposure after vaccination.


I wonder if order matters?  The one limited study was infection first, vaccination second gave you an advanced immunity.  Does vaccination first, infection second give you the same advanced immunity?  I would it suspect it does, but who knows.  I wouldn't recommend getting the infection 2nd even if it gives you enhanced immunity.

BTW, I'm not saying if you've been infected don't get vaccinated (that's up to you and your Dr.).  I just believe its not appropriate, and actually anti-science, to mandate one over the other, which is what is happening in many cases.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

watfly said:


> It's apparent that the Covid fear mongers are incapable of understanding context and relative risk.  They can only think in terms of gross numbers.  Irrational fear obviously kills brain cells.


Some don't appear to understand the gross numbers very well. Nationwide 53 positive tests for COVID for children in the hospital should be in the Good News thread. I just hope the numbers stay that low.


----------



## watfly

kickingandscreaming said:


> Some don't appear to understand the gross numbers very well. Nationwide 53 positive tests for COVID for children in the hospital should be in the Good News thread. I just hope the numbers stay that low.


Let's not pretend that its really about the protection of children, when the reality is that its for the protection of adults.  That's why we hear the argument that "it doesn't matter that the virus poses little risk to children, what about community spread?"  Community spread is a euphemism for "that snot nosed kid better not give me Covid".


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> I wonder if order matters?  The one limited study was infection first, vaccination second gave you an advanced immunity.  Does vaccination first, infection second give you the same advanced immunity?  I would it suspect it does, but who knows.  I wouldn't recommend getting the infection 2nd even if it gives you enhanced immunity.
> 
> BTW, I'm not saying if you've been infected don't get vaccinated (that's up to you and your Dr.).  I just believe its not appropriate, and actually anti-science, to mandate one over the other, which is what is happening in many cases.


Kind of moot.

Supposing they had evidence that infection before vaccination was slightly better than the other.  What would you do with that information?


----------



## watfly

dad4 said:


> Kind of moot.
> 
> Supposing they had evidence that infection before vaccination was slightly better than the other.  What would you do with that information?


Probably just think "huh, interesting", but otherwise nothing.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Let's not pretend that its really about the protection of children, when the reality is that its for the protection of adults.  That's why we hear the argument that "it doesn't matter that the virus poses little risk to children, what about community spread?"  Community spread is a euphemism for "that snot nosed kid better not give me Covid".


I posted in another thread but I think you'll like this essay.  It covers a lot of the things you have been saying about children.









						Childhood, Interrupted
					

Children’s value — which was once predicated on their role as the literal future of humanity— has been perverted, now centering on their utility as shields for the elderly.




					ajkay.substack.com


----------



## dad4

watfly said:


> Let's not pretend that its really about the protection of children, when the reality is that its for the protection of adults.  That's why we hear the argument that "it doesn't matter that the virus poses little risk to children, what about community spread?"  Community spread is a euphemism for "that snot nosed kid better not give me Covid".


Afraid of direct contagion from the snot nosed kid?  Not really.  I am healthy and vaccinated.  The likely damage to me is quite small.  

However, one of my kid’s friends has a little sister with a weak immune system.  My fear is that covid makes it to her, because she can’t fight it off.

So, nothing to do with the snot nosed kid.  Hope he scores a goal this weekend.

Community spread is a way to say, “more covid in the community means more exposure for the vulnerable in our community”.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Afraid of direct contagion from the snot nosed kid?  Not really.  I am healthy and vaccinated.  The likely damage to me is quite small.
> 
> However, one of my kid’s friends has a little sister with a weak immune system.  My fear is that covid makes it to her, because she can’t fight it off.
> 
> So, nothing to do with the snot nosed kid.  Hope he scores a goal this weekend.
> 
> Community spread is a way to say, “more covid in the community means more exposure for the vulnerable in our community”.


Your own personal behavior with the N95s belies that this has anything to do with the immunocompromised sister of your kids friends...it implies it really is about you.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> I posted in another thread but I think you'll like this essay.  It covers a lot of the things you have been saying about children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Childhood, Interrupted
> 
> 
> Children’s value — which was once predicated on their role as the literal future of humanity— has been perverted, now centering on their utility as shields for the elderly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ajkay.substack.com


I had read that.  While I agree with the points its a little strong for my tastes.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I had read that.  While I agree with the points its a little strong for my tastes.


yeah, I had the same reaction...but there were parts that made me cry.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Your own personal behavior with the N95s belies that this has anything to do with the immunocompromised sister of your kids friends...it implies it really is about you.


It is a systems thinking question, not a personal risk question.  

You and DH will never really get your brains around it.  Your head keeps wanting to ask “given a fixed world, what is the risk to me?”.  That isn‘t the question I am asking at all. 

 I am asking “given what we know about the virus, how do we reduce the risk to all of us?”


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> It is a systems thinking question, not a personal risk question.
> 
> You and DH will never really get your brains around it.  Your head keeps wanting to ask “given a fixed world, what is the risk to me?”.  That isn‘t the question I am asking at all.
> 
> I am asking “given what we know about the virus, how do we reduce the risk to all of us?”


From a systems point of view: a. there aren't enough N95s to go around for everyone (you and I agree govt should have done more in this area).  Every N95 you  use is an N95 which is not available to a medical worker or vulnerable person like my folks.  Every N95 that you buy drives up the price incrementally from people that want them and have an argument that they really need them.
b. you've said surgicals works....why don't you use them then?  You're using an N95 in the supermarket is going to do very much to help the others around you....aren't you in education too....aren't you getting tested?...the odds of you asymptomatically passing something onto others given you are also vaccinated are very small.
c. The n95 is about you....it's not about others.  You either believe the science you've been pushing or you don't.  Either the masks work or they don't.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> It is a systems thinking question, not a personal risk question.
> 
> You and DH will never really get your brains around it.  Your head keeps wanting to ask “given a fixed world, what is the risk to me?”.  That isn‘t the question I am asking at all.
> 
> I am asking “given what we know about the virus, how do we reduce the risk to all of us?”


Can you add to that question….for how long and at what expense?


----------



## NorCalDad

dad4 said:


> I see no reason to believe the two are mutually exclusive.  I am vaccinated, but I figure my own odds of catching a mild case of delta are nowhere near zero.  No need to rush it, but it’s reasonably likely I’ll end up with both.
> 
> Quite a few vaccinated people are going to end up with boh natural and vaccinated immunity- either because they got vaccinated after infection, or because they had exposure after vaccination.


This times 1000.  I am vaccinated but know I will eventually get it.  I will have mild symptoms as a result.  Life will go on.  On the other hand a coworker of mine just told me yesterday her step dad just passed away from covid complications.  He was an anti-vaxer,  the maga varietal (not the q-hippy type).  Surely he would've survived covid had he taken the vaccine.  Sure, just one example, but this is happening all over the place with low vaccination rates. 

I would actually agree with anti-maskers for kids in school in areas with high vaccination rates.  We live in a county that has really high vaccination rates.  I don't particularly see the need for the masks in school.  At least until there's a mutation that impacts children more than it does today.  My kids don't complain about it, so whatever. 

The problem though, anti-maskers and anti-vaxers are usually the same people.


----------



## watfly

NorCalDad said:


> This times 1000.  I am vaccinated but know I will eventually get it.  I will have mild symptoms as a result.  Life will go on.  On the other hand a coworker of mine just told me yesterday her step dad just passed away from covid complications.  He was an anti-vaxer,  the maga varietal (not the q-hippy type).  Surely he would've survived covid had he taken the vaccine.  Sure, just one example, but this is happening all over the place with low vaccination rates.
> 
> I would actually agree with anti-maskers for kids in school in areas with high vaccination rates.  We live in a county that has really high vaccination rates.  I don't particularly see the need for the masks in school.  At least until there's a mutation that impacts children more than it does today.  My kids don't complain about it, so whatever.
> 
> The problem though, anti-maskers and anti-vaxers are usually the same people.


Be careful, you could be labeled an anti-masker with your common sense position on children and masks.   

Out of honest curiosity, what makes you so sure your going to get it?  I realize that luck plays a roll, is it just that you can't control luck?  I took a don't be stupid, but don't hide, approach to Covid, and maybe I just got lucky.   At this point I'm vaccinated and other than keeping my distance from people that are sick I don't really take any other precautions.  While I probably wouldn't too surprised if I got Covid,  I'm not expecting to get it.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> This times 1000.  I am vaccinated but know I will eventually get it.  I will have mild symptoms as a result.  Life will go on.  On the other hand a coworker of mine just told me yesterday her step dad just passed away from covid complications.  He was an anti-vaxer,  the maga varietal (not the q-hippy type).  Surely he would've survived covid had he taken the vaccine.  Sure, just one example, but this is happening all over the place with low vaccination rates.
> 
> I would actually agree with anti-maskers for kids in school in areas with high vaccination rates.  We live in a county that has really high vaccination rates.  I don't particularly see the need for the masks in school.  At least until there's a mutation that impacts children more than it does today.  My kids don't complain about it, so whatever.
> 
> The problem though, anti-maskers and anti-vaxers are usually the same people.


You've simplified a very complex thing, to include the virus.  Vaccinated people are dying at an alarming rate, check the data coming out of England and even in our own country.  More vaccinated people died of covid in England than unvaccinated from 1FEB - 1 AUG.  Makes sense really.  It's an imperfect vaccine with high coverage.  Generally speaking healthy people, vaccinated or not, survive covid.  Some wont , but most do.  Data coming out of New England suggests the increase as well.  

This ridiculous political discussion surrounding health care is suffocating.  You can and should treat infections with everything and the kitchen sink.  Some will, some won't.  Political discourse is getting in the way of health care.  The Surgeon General said something the other day that recieved little attention by the hystric stream media:  *"It is really important that we convey that success does not equal no cases," Murthy said. "Success looks like very few people in the hospital and very few dying."* 

But we will continue to delineate tribes, direct unscientific mandates, and generally wreak havoc on the ability of medical professionals to care for their patients.


----------



## NorCalDad

watfly said:


> Be careful, you could be labeled an anti-masker with your common sense position on children and masks.
> 
> Out of honest curiosity, what makes you so sure your going to get it?  I realize that luck plays a roll, is it just that you can't control luck?  I took a don't be stupid, but don't hide, approach to Covid, and maybe I just got lucky.   At this point I'm vaccinated and other than keeping my distance from people that are sick I don't really take any other precautions.  While I probably wouldn't too surprised if I got Covid,  I'm not expecting to get it.


Because even in our highly vaccinated county, kids are getting it. Their symptoms are all flu-like and not a huge deal. I mean I realize I'm ignoring some kids that are immunocompromised that @dad4 rightfully brings up, but in general the impact to kids is pretty low from what I've seen so far. I know several families that have gotten it. My family is pretty safe, so if we get it, it will be through the kids. Not a huge deal, due to our vaccination rates. If I lived somewhere where the vax rates were bad, I'd quickly move. Our hospitals are just moving along with no real shortages of anything. Again, due to vax rates. Maybe natural immunity will achieve the same eventually, but that's some pretty brutal collateral damage.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> You've simplified a very complex thing, to include the virus.  Vaccinated people are dying at an alarming rate, check the data coming out of England and even in our own country.  More vaccinated people died of covid in England than unvaccinated from 1FEB - 1 AUG.  Makes sense really.  It's an imperfect vaccine with high coverage.  Generally speaking healthy people, vaccinated or not, survive covid.  Some wont , but most do.  Data coming out of New England suggests the increase as well.
> 
> This ridiculous political discussion surrounding health care is suffocating.  You can and should treat infections with everything and the kitchen sink.  Some will, some won't.  Political discourse is getting in the way of health care.  The Surgeon General said something the other day that recieved little attention by the hystric stream media:  *"It is really important that we convey that success does not equal no cases," Murthy said. "Success looks like very few people in the hospital and very few dying."*
> 
> But we will continue to delineate tribes, direct unscientific mandates, and generally wreak havoc on the ability of medical professionals to care for their patients.


Are you referring to my "maga varietal" comment?  I backed that up with "q-hippy" in case you missed it.  

Honestly dude, I don't even know what you're arguing.  You're all over the place.  Maybe take a break from the screen a bit.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Be careful, you could be labeled an anti-masker with your common sense position on children and masks.
> 
> Out of honest curiosity, what makes you so sure your going to get it?  I realize that luck plays a roll, is it just that you can't control luck?  I took a don't be stupid, but don't hide, approach to Covid, and maybe I just got lucky.   At this point I'm vaccinated and other than keeping my distance from people that are sick I don't really take any other precautions.  While I probably wouldn't too surprised if I got Covid,  I'm not expecting to get it.


It's continuing to mutate.  If either: a) vaccine/natural immunity drops with time as the Israelis believe (Gottlieb/Fauci believe it may be like chicken pox...one booster and it's enough to keep vaccine immunity high....but they are guessing....there's no data to support that), or b) the mutations continue, the herd immunity number is set way over 100%....it's therefore likely that over time everyone will get it (as they do with the flu).  The problem is we don't know if either of the two assumptions are true, but it's looking more likely than not which would make it endemic.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> Are you referring to my "maga varietal" comment?  I backed that up with "q-hippy" in case you missed it.
> 
> Honestly dude, I don't even know what you're arguing.  You're all over the place.  Maybe take a break from the screen a bit.


quite touchy are you? what is q-hippy?


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> It's continuing to mutate.  If either: a) vaccine/natural immunity drops with time as the Israelis believe (Gottlieb/Fauci believe it may be like chicken pox...one booster and it's enough to keep vaccine immunity high....but they are guessing....there's no data to support that), or b) the mutations continue, the herd immunity number is set way over 100%....it's therefore likely that over time everyone will get it (as they do with the flu).  The problem is we don't know if either of the two assumptions are true, but it's looking more likely than not which would make it endemic.


Well hell, only 1 in 10 have tested positive in San Diego (obviously the actual Covid cases are higher), so we have a long way to go.  While I'm one that said that the virus will always find the path of least resistance, I still believe it will burnout before everyone gets it (and not necessarily due to herd immunity).   The virus hasn't shown any indication of that yet, (in terms of cases) but I'm hopeful it will.  Call me naïve.


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> Well hell, only 1 in 10 have tested positive in San Diego (obviously the actual Covid cases are higher), so we have a long way to go.  While I'm one that said that the virus will always find the path of least resistance, I still believe it will burnout before everyone gets it (and not necessarily due to herd immunity).   The virus hasn't shown any indication of that yet, (in terms of cases) but I'm hopeful it will.  Call me naïve.


There are two theories of thought on that.  Assume the assumptions are correct and herd immunity is over (in which case it will be way over most likely) 100%....1) the virus continues its evolutionary trek down the delta (with the delta displacing most other competitors)....eventually it runs out of things to do to change....eventually it burns out and goes away but this takes place over the course of years, perhaps even a decade, gradually peetering out with each year it being less and less of a problem, or 2) another family of mutations arises (say for example the mu that's caught the press's attention)....this continues pretty much forever like flu.....some years will be better than others....people will catch it multiple times....the vulnerable will periodically die from it.


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> quite touchy are you? what is q-hippy?


You wrote a manifesto in response to my five liner....not sure who's touchy here. 









						Nazi Hippies: When the New Age and Far Right Overlap
					

Both the New Age and the far right are drawn to conspiracy theories




					gen.medium.com
				




Far left Qanon types essentially.  You know...chem trail believers.


----------



## watfly

Grace T. said:


> There are two theories of thought on that.  Assume the assumptions are correct and herd immunity is over (in which case it will be way over most likely) 100%....1) the virus continues its evolutionary trek down the delta (with the delta displacing most other competitors)....eventually it runs out of things to do to change....eventually it burns out and goes away but this takes place over the course of years, perhaps even a decade, gradually peetering out with each year it being less and less of a problem, or 2) another family of mutations arises (say for example the mu that's caught the press's attention)....this continues pretty much forever like flu.....some years will be better than others....people will catch it multiple times....the vulnerable will periodically die from it.


I don't like either of those scenarios.  Is there a scenario where a Covid vaccine is developed that is as effective as the Polio vaccine?


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> You wrote a manifesto in response to my five liner....not sure who's touchy here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nazi Hippies: When the New Age and Far Right Overlap
> 
> 
> Both the New Age and the far right are drawn to conspiracy theories
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gen.medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Far left Qanon types essentially.  You know...chem trail believers.


Had no idea this was a thing.

5 liner? Bad memory?


----------



## Grace T.

watfly said:


> I don't like either of those scenarios.  Is there a scenario where a Covid vaccine is developed that is as effective as the Polio vaccine?


No.  Polio is much more stable. 

Best chance is if Fauci/Gottlieb are right (and the Israelis are wrong) and boosters make it like the chicken pox vaccine and the delta burns out naturally in the non-vaxxed portion of the world (if natural immunity is robust and long lasting against any of delta's children).


----------



## NorCalDad

what-happened said:


> Had no idea this was a thing.
> 
> 5 liner? Bad memory?


I did that on purpose to test your touchiness.  Relax...take some deep breaths....it's all good.


----------



## what-happened

watfly said:


> I don't like either of those scenarios.  Is there a scenario where a Covid vaccine is developed that is as effective as the Polio vaccine?


Not likely (not being a debbie downer).  It's a RNA virus, continuous vaccination will likely cause constant mutation of the vaunted "spike protein". Other challenges as well - not everyone will want to get a yearly vaccine (that's the direction this is headed).  Roughly 50% get vaccinated for the flu every year.  

RNA viruses are challenging.


----------



## what-happened

NorCalDad said:


> I did that on purpose to test your touchiness.  Relax...take some deep breaths....it's all good.


sneaky..

I'll take your advice, breathing is good.


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## espola

Grace T. said:


> From a systems point of view: a. there aren't enough N95s to go around for everyone (you and I agree govt should have done more in this area).  Every N95 you  use is an N95 which is not available to a medical worker or vulnerable person like my folks.  Every N95 that you buy drives up the price incrementally from people that want them and have an argument that they really need them.
> b. you've said surgicals works....why don't you use them then?  You're using an N95 in the supermarket is going to do very much to help the others around you....aren't you in education too....aren't you getting tested?...the odds of you asymptomatically passing something onto others given you are also vaccinated are very small.
> c. The n95 is about you....it's not about others.  You either believe the science you've been pushing or you don't.  Either the masks work or they don't.


False dichotomies.


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## Roadrunner

what-happened said:


> Not likely (not being a debbie downer).  It's a RNA virus, continuous vaccination will likely cause constant mutation of the vaunted "spike protein". Other challenges as well - not everyone will want to get a yearly vaccine (that's the direction this is headed).  Roughly 50% get vaccinated for the flu every year.
> 
> RNA viruses are challenging.


Yes, RNA viruses are challenging, and respiratory viruses are challenging.  By the way, poliovirus is also an RNA virus, and it has a pretty high mutation rate too.  This is also contributes to the probability of getting vaccine associated paralytic polio from the oral attenuated vaccine. (The Sabin version.). The Sabin oral vaccine has mutations introduced that make it so it is not neurovirulant.  (But, as the crippled virus replicates in your gut, there is a small probability that it will acquire the right set of reversions to make it neurovirulant.)  An advantage of attenuated virus is that the community gets an immune boost too. 

The inactivated Salk vaccine was developed first, and is typically 90% effective after two shots- better after more.  But, to make that vaccine back in the 50's they did have to sacrifice a lot of monkeys.  There was also some manufacturing quality control problems where some vaccine doses we're contaminated with highly infectious virus. Not good.  They've fixed/improved the manufacturing issues. The inactivated vaccine also doesn't elicit as strong of intestinal immunity as the attenuated vaccine.  Over time there have been improvements in the protocols too, and vaccination schedules used to include a mix of the inactivated vaccine and the attenuated.  With the eradication campaign, the oral attenuated vaccine will need to be stopped, but it is still used in other countries.

By the way, vaccination will have absolutely no effect on the mutation rate of the SARS-CoV2 virus.  As long as the virus can replicate, it will make copying mistakes - and it will also recombine with other SARS-CoV2 genomes in the infected cell.  At some probability, some combinations of changes could alter / reduce the effectiveness of neutralizing antibodies.


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## what-happened

Roadrunner said:


> Yes, RNA viruses are challenging, and respiratory viruses are challenging.  By the way, poliovirus is also an RNA virus, and it has a pretty high mutation rate too.  This is also contributes to the probability of getting vaccine associated paralytic polio from the oral attenuated vaccine. (The Sabin version.). The Sabin oral vaccine has mutations introduced that make it so it is not neurovirulant.  (But, as the crippled virus replicates in your gut, there is a small probability that it will acquire the right set of reversions to make it neurovirulant.)  An advantage of attenuated virus is that the community gets an immune boost too.
> 
> The inactivated Salk vaccine was developed first, and is typically 90% effective after two shots- better after more.  But, to make that vaccine back in the 50's they did have to sacrifice a lot of monkeys.  There was also some manufacturing quality control problems where some vaccine doses we're contaminated with highly infectious virus. Not good.  They've fixed/improved the manufacturing issues. The inactivated vaccine also doesn't elicit as strong of intestinal immunity as the attenuated vaccine.  Over time there have been improvements in the protocols too, and vaccination schedules used to include a mix of the inactivated vaccine and the attenuated.  With the eradication campaign, the oral attenuated vaccine will need to be stopped, but it is still used in other countries.
> 
> By the way, vaccination will have absolutely no effect on the mutation rate of the SARS-CoV2 virus.  As long as the virus can replicate, it will make copying mistakes - and it will also recombine with other SARS-CoV2 genomes in the infected cell.  At some probability, some combinations of changes could alter / reduce the effectiveness of neutralizing antibodies.


I love how @espola gives his thumbs up.  Cracks me up.

This is a soccer forum and certainly not a meeting place for renowned disease ecologist, evolutionary biologists, and the such.  Who knows, you may be one of them. Many of us are not.  I get the basics (just the required course load). Plenty of research out there that supports the idea that vaccines drive RNA mutation.  There just is.  As is with science and especially in these fields, plenty of planted flags on either side of the equation.  But, you sound like you know what you are talking about and I kinda understand where you are coming from.  Great rundown.


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## Grace T.

espola said:


> False dichotomies.


Economics


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## espola

what-happened said:


> I love how @espola gives his thumbs up.  Cracks me up.
> 
> This is a soccer forum and certainly not a meeting place for renowned disease ecologist, evolutionary biologists, and the such.  Who knows, you may be one of them. Many of us are not.  I get the basics (just the required course load). Plenty of research out there that supports the idea that vaccines drive RNA mutation.  There just is.  As is with science and especially in these fields, plenty of planted flags on either side of the equation.  But, you sound like you know what you are talking about and I kinda understand where you are coming from.  Great rundown.


I have never seen a peer-reviewed paper with the term "There just is".


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## espola

Grace T. said:


> Economics


Nothing to do with economics.


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## Roadrunner

what-happened said:


> Plenty of research out there that supports the idea that vaccines drive RNA mutation.  There just is.


If such research is out there, I haven't seen it.  From a biological perspective, this doesn't really make sense.  But, there are plenty of news type articles written about how viruses can gain mutations that allow them to escape neutralizing antibodies, and from how these are written, I easily understand how it can be confusing.  

The genetic changes arise at a higher rate in RNA viruses because the enzyme complex that copies the RNA makes mistakes that don't get corrected.  (But some RNA viruses have higher mutation rates than others- coronaviruses can actually do some proofreading, keeping the error rate lower.)  If the changes allow the virus to escape someone's immune system then it will be more likely to continue propagating. But neither the antibodies developed in response to vaccination nor the vaccine itself directly increase the rate of mutation. I don't think this is something scientists disagree about.

And yes, it's a soccer forum...  That has a thread about vaccines. Haha.


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## N00B

Roadrunner said:


> If such research is out there, I haven't seen it.  From a biological perspective, this doesn't really make sense.  But, there are plenty of news type articles written about how viruses can gain mutations that allow them to escape neutralizing antibodies, and from how these are written, I easily understand how it can be confusing.
> 
> The genetic changes arise at a higher rate in RNA viruses because the enzyme complex that copies the RNA makes mistakes that don't get corrected.  (But some RNA viruses have higher mutation rates than others- coronaviruses can actually do some proofreading, keeping the error rate lower.)  If the changes allow the virus to escape someone's immune system then it will be more likely to continue propagating. But neither the antibodies developed in response to vaccination nor the vaccine itself directly increase the rate of mutation. I don't think this is something scientists disagree about.
> 
> And yes, it's a soccer forum...  That has a thread about vaccines. Haha.


Absolutely correct, but somewhat of a semantic disagreement.

Vaccines don’t promote mutations, but do limit the successful pathways of propagation. That provides an evolutionary advantage to the mutations. (Not the frequency, but the likelihood of evolutionary success in propagation.

I assume that you get this based on your posts (tongue-in-check comment as that is abundantly clear), but I also give you credit for the specific diction in your posts that is less than neutral.

Are there a plethora of studies pointing to vaccines as drivers of virus mutations? No.  Do strains of viruses propagate more frequently than others? Yes.

Which was the poster referring to?  That it is generally accepted that vaccines cause mutations or that vaccines encourage the propagation of mutations more so than the strain that is vaccinated against?  

Then again this is the off topic form, so… who knows?


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## N00B

@Soccermaverick Still waiting on that vaccination Tier 1A qualification?  This is your thread, right?


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## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> What stage does it begin to bother you or better yet when is it not just Covid fear mongering?
> 
> An average of nearly 53 children a day were hospitalized with confirmed cases of Covid-19 from August 31 to September 6, according to CDC data.


Strawman


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## Bruddah IZ

Soccermaverick said:


> That’s cute.. 2100+ people died yesterday in the US due to Covid.. how many kids lost a parent! 270+ in Texas alone.. number 2 cause of death now.
> 
> Kids are at risk when their parent dies early in life.. The opportunists pushing anti mask anti vaccine rhetoric and hiding behind kids is disgusting..


They’re not lion cubs.  The nanny state will come to the rescue of .children whose parents represent .00000636 of the US population.


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## Bruddah IZ

By mandating vaccines for all, the WH pandemic plan does not recognize that prior COVID disease gives stronger longer lasting immunity than vaccines. So, a stretch to call it "science-based". 
whitehouse.gov/covidplan/—Kulldorff


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## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> I know patients like you ….always complaining… demanding favors…lying to the front desk telling them you don’t have Covid when you know you do.. asking for disability… yep I know you.


So is this a hypothetical like the first post or more your experience as a front desk admin?


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## N00B

Soccermaverick said:


> BTW my vaccine dates were Jan 8 and Feb 4… the booster can’t come soon enough! So don’t think I don’t have a vested interest!


I think you don’t have a legitimate tier 1a vaccine priority reason for a booster.









						FDA vaccine regulators argue against Covid-19 vaccine boosters in new international review
					

A group of international experts — including, notably, two outgoing FDA vaccine regulators — argues in a new paper against offering Covid-19 vaccine boosters to the general population.




					www.statnews.com


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## N00B

N00B said:


> I think you don’t have a legitimate tier 1a vaccine priority reason for a booster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDA vaccine regulators argue against Covid-19 vaccine boosters in new international review
> 
> 
> A group of international experts — including, notably, two outgoing FDA vaccine regulators — argues in a new paper against offering Covid-19 vaccine boosters to the general population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statnews.com


Yup.



			Redirect Notice


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## Soccermaverick

Reminder!


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## NewUser27

Vaccines are the new Monavie.
MLM at its best from your own goverment, its not illegal cause they have a product.
Print money we dont have , to pay out everyone involved, at any cost.
Its all about money, period.

Its always been about money for this party.

The numbers now show how big of a joke this all is, everything was label C19 in the beginning to add $$$ to their monthly numbers.

In not against vaccines in general but my children will not get this jab.

I had covid , as did my family , were are a young heathly group, maybe lasted 2 days in the house.  Just like any other virus, it treats everyone differently, one day the truth will come out as too how this Virus was used to bamboozle all of us, and was hore'd out as a way to add dollars into their pockets.

from day one they have never been able to secure true numbers of deaths, sick, cases, etc.... but they were able to fill out forms and get additional monies for their institution and personal gains.

You do you, and I will do me, this has no effect on whether me or you agree or have the vaccine, this common cold, flu , virus, whatever it is , is being blown out of proportion for personal gains for a select group of people.

Im ride this out , sit back and enjoy life.  Im in control of my happiness, not some 1 term asshat puppet.

FYI I am not a trumpet either, but this guy we have now , holy cow , everything is going downhill fast with him.......

BIG MISTAKE


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