# Substitution Rules



## timbuck (Oct 23, 2016)

What we're the substitution rules last year for u12 and u13?

These are the current SCDSL rules which were updated mid-September. 

"2008(b), 2008, 2007 and 2006 - Unlimited substitutions
2005 and 2004 - One re-entry per half, per player. Each half stands on its own
2003 and older - No re-entry in the first half and one re-entry in the second half, per
player. Each half stands on its own."

I seem to recall unlimited subs until u14 or u15, but I could be wrong. 
Is the 1 re-entry per half being tracked?
Seems that for "development" this rule might be counterproductive 

I.E.-  coach subs a girl to give her advice, encouragement, reprimand or make a subtle change the puts her back in.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

timbuck said:


> What we're the substitution rules last year for u12 and u13?
> 
> These are the current SCDSL rules which were updated mid-September.
> 
> ...


Limited substitution rules stupidly interfere with player development.


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## Bubba (Oct 24, 2016)

One thing this rule prevents is having a coach doing mass subbing every ten minutes while maintaining pressing defensive.

I remember some teams subbing 5-6 players at a time pressing other team , then 10 - 15 minutes later doing over again after the players were rested. This would happen 2-3 times per half.

Win a lots of games , but not real soccer.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

Bubba said:


> One thing this rule prevents is having a coach doing mass subbing every ten minutes while maintaining pressing defensive.
> 
> I remember some teams subbing 5-6 players at a time pressing other team , then 10 - 15 minutes later doing over again after the players were rested. This would happen 2-3 times per half.
> 
> Win a lots of games , but not real soccer.


What is "real soccer"?


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## Bubba (Oct 24, 2016)

Not doing wave subbing . No team can do pressing for a whole 90 minute game. Must pick your moments .


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## mirage (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Limited substitution rules stupidly interfere with player development.


Actually, no.  Players need to develop how to play the duration of the game as minutes increase with age.  If its free sub, players don't know how to regulate energy spent on the field for 90 minute or more games in the future.

I see your point about not getting more players onto the field but that's looking at it from a different aspect.  The reason for limiting subs have to do with developing players' endurance and performance in game situations.


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## timbuck (Oct 24, 2016)

The "real" game of soccer requires players to have endurance and to measure their energy throughout a 90 minute game.  
But this is for adults that are in mature bodies with (usually) mature minds. 
04 kids are 12 or 13 years old. Still kids.  They shouldn't be expected to run a full 70 minutes yet.  You don't see many kids that age running 10k or longer races.  Not because they can't, but because it's not good for their bodies. 
The SCDSL rules allow for 1 re-entry per half, which is suppose is ok.  They can come off of the field and then go back on one time in a 35 minute half. 
Looks like Coast doesn't have the same restriction and allows unlimited substitution.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

mirage said:


> Actually, no.  Players need to develop how to play the duration of the game as minutes increase with age.  If its free sub, players don't know how to regulate energy spent on the field for 90 minute or more games in the future.
> 
> I see your point about not getting more players onto the field but that's looking at it from a different aspect.  The reason for limiting subs have to do with developing players' endurance and performance in game situations.


Nonsense.  Very few players on the field are running, jumping, or kicking for the full 90 minutes.  If that is your aim, then 90 minutes of suicide drills twice a week will be more effective.

Any playing environment (league, tournament, showcase, whatever) that purports to enhance "development" of players should give the coaches full freedom to substitute as they deem appropriate.  If it appears that coaches are taking advantage of that freedom just to win games (horrors!) that should be dealt with their DOCs and perhaps their league officials.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

Bubba said:


> Not doing wave subbing . No team can do pressing for a whole 90 minute game. Must pick your moments .


"Must"?


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## younothat (Oct 24, 2016)

Nope, always been that way:
http://www.scdslsoccer.com/docs/SCDSL_R&R_FINAL_6_21_11.pdf
U9-U10 Unlimited substitutions
U11-U13 One re-entry per half
U14-U19 No re-entry in the first half and one re-entry in the second half

By the time kids play 11v11 (12-13 yrs) running for a whole game is fine and they should be conditioned to do so.  

Mids run between 7-9 miles a game according to the mi meter we had on their cleats, they learn how to pace themselves.

The unlimited sub thing at 11x11 was at some tournaments I recall and the  mass line changes where kind of annoying,  hard to get or keep a flow or consistency going.

Once you get to the DA, ENCL, HS or above most follow the FIFA guidelines; no re-entry, max 7 per, etc 

The problem with the more restrictive sub rules at these higher levels is playing time fo the subs,  they normally don't get enough.  Either the roster is too larger or the need to get a result outweighs development.

And yes a youth team can press the entire 11v11 game with very limited subs 1-3, seen it done for years and both by kids play(ed) on and versus teams that did/do this.


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## BarcaLover (Oct 24, 2016)

I see both sides of the argument.  On the one hand, if we are talking about development in the sense of "minutes on the field", unlimited substitutions makes sense.  You can move players in and out and everyone can get a bunch of playing time and as a coach you can have conversations and make corrections and then send the player back in.


On the other side of development is learning how to conserve or wisely use your energy during a match.  If you have unlimited sustitutions, as others have mentioned, a coach could use the tactic of doing 10-12 minute shifts where he instructs a group of 6 players to go 1000% with super high pressure and pressing and then come out and send in the next 6 and have them do the same....etc.

In that sense, the players arent learning how to decide when to "turn it on" and "when to turn it down".....it's just go 100 mph until you get subbed off.

So there are pros and cons to both sides IMO.


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## mirage (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Nonsense.  Very few players on the field are running, jumping, or kicking for the full 90 minutes.  If that is your aim, then 90 minutes of suicide drills twice a week will be more effective....


Did you ever play the game at a high level?  Players are running for most of full 90 min.  Typically cover multiple miles in a game.  No they are not sprinting for full 90 and that's the point.  They need to be able to sprint at 100% at the end of the game as well as at the beginning of the game.

How often have seen players making mistakes and not giving full effort as they fatigue during the game.  In free sub, many coaches tend to demand full 100% energy for short duration then sub players out to rest and recycle.  That's fine if the objective is just to play rec but the rules don't allow for that; hence, its part of a development to regulate tactically body energy output.

We disagree.


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## Laced (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Nonsense.  Very few players on the field are running, jumping, or kicking for the full 90 minutes.  If that is your aim, then 90 minutes of suicide drills twice a week will be more effective.
> 
> Any playing environment (league, tournament, showcase, whatever) that purports to enhance "development" of players should give the coaches full freedom to substitute as they deem appropriate.  If it appears that coaches are taking advantage of that freedom just to win games (horrors!) that should be dealt with their DOCs and perhaps their league officials.


Whether you agree with the rationale, the effect of FIFA's substitution rule is that part of a forward's tactics is to tire out defenders while preserving his/her energy. Defenders have an advantage when everyone has fresh legs. When fatigue is a factor, it's more equalized for the offense. That's why around 60% of goals in the pros come in the second half. That's a number from memory but shouldn't be too far off.

Another thing is that without timeouts, a coach's role is more limited than in other sports. Unlimited sub/re-entry would allow a coach to have a bigger role by sending in fresh defenders, and stalling the game while ahead, and interrupting the flow of the game.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

Laced said:


> Whether you agree with the rationale, the effect of FIFA's substitution rule is that part of a forward's tactics is to tire out defenders while preserving his/her energy. Defenders have an advantage when everyone has fresh legs. When fatigue is a factor, it's more equalized for the offense. That's why around 60% of goals in the pros come in the second half. That's a number from memory but shouldn't be too far off.
> 
> Another thing is that without timeouts, a coach's role is more limited than in other sports. Unlimited sub/re-entry would allow a coach to have a bigger role by sending in fresh defenders, and stalling the game while ahead, and interrupting the flow of the game.


Limited substitutions come from the days when therre were no substitutions, and that was preserved as much as possible as clubs got richer since it meant smaller payrolls.


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## Laced (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Limited substitutions come from the days when therre were no substitutions, and that was preserved as much as possible as clubs got richer since it meant smaller payrolls.


Roster size for adult games has always been 22+, so your rationale about payroll savings doesn't make sense.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

Laced said:


> Roster size for adult games has always been 22+, so your rationale about payroll savings doesn't make sense.


Always?

The number of substitutes usable in a competitive match has increased from zero (meaning teams were reduced if players' injuries could not allow them to play on) to one, to two out of a possible five in 1988,[8] two plus one (injured goalkeeper) in 1994,[9] and then (in 1995) to three.

Substitutions during matches in the English Football League were first permitted in the 1965–66 season. During the first two seasons after the law was introduced, each side was permitted only one substitution during a game. Moreover, the substitute could only replace an injured player. From the 1967–68 season, this rule was relaxed to allow substitutions for tactical reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_(association_football)
​


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## Laced (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> Always?
> 
> The number of substitutes usable in a competitive match has increased from zero (meaning teams were reduced if players' injuries could not allow them to play on) to one, to two out of a possible five in 1988,[8] two plus one (injured goalkeeper) in 1994,[9] and then (in 1995) to three.
> 
> ...


Now you're being unfair. You're referring to events that took place before the rest of us were born


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## jrcaesar (Oct 24, 2016)

younothat said:


> Once you get to the DA, ENCL, HS or above most follow the FIFA guidelines; no re-entry, max 7 per, etc


Both NCAA and NFHS allow substitutions or re-entry beyond FIFA rules.


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## Surfref (Oct 24, 2016)

timbuck said:


> ......Is the 1 re-entry per half being tracked?......


In the games that I referee (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) that have restrictions on substitutions, the referee crew tracks the substitutions.  It is easy to track the substitutions if the referee crew requires the player to completely leave the field of play before the new player can come on.  SCDSL, ECNL and DA all allow the referee to add time at the end of each half, so there is no reason why referee crew would not be able to track the substitutes.  I know that not all referees track the subs in these leagues, because I have had coaches try to put players back in the game after they have been subbed out.  When I tell them that their player cannot reenter for the half, their response is usually, "The other referees let us do it."  And, my response is usually, "Evidently they did not read the (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) rules."


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## socalkdg (Oct 24, 2016)

So you play for 10 minutes full speed, rest 10 minutes, then reenter and play full speed for 10 minutes and then half time hits.  You can still do wave subbing with the one reentry rule in 2005 and 2004.  I've never seen a kid on our team(CSL) subbed more than once in a half.  4-5 kids play the whole first half, 4-5 kids are subbed out in the first half.  Second half 3-4 kids still play the whole game, with about 5-6 kids being subbed for again.  A different kid usually gets hurt enough to keep them out for the game.   We had plans to sub out the keeper at half time so she could play in the field in the 2nd half, just hasn't happened yet.   

What are the high school rules?  Is it unlimited?  Seem to remember a girl being subbed in for throw ins when near the opponents goal.


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## espola (Oct 24, 2016)

Surfref said:


> In the games that I referee (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) that have restrictions on substitutions, the referee crew tracks the substitutions.  It is easy to track the substitutions if the referee crew requires the player to completely leave the field of play before the new player can come on.  SCDSL, ECNL and DA all allow the referee to add time at the end of each half, so there is no reason why referee crew would not be able to track the substitutes.  I know that not all referees track the subs in these leagues, because I have had coaches try to put players back in the game after they have been subbed out.  When I tell them that their player cannot reenter for the half, their response is usually, "The other referees let us do it."  And, my response is usually, "Evidently they did not read the (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) rules."


A few years back we had a S-20 team playing in USL.  That league allowed every player to enter once per half.  The league setup was both teams on the same side of the field, with a scorer's table at center line on that side.  On that table were placed the game record sheets and the player cards.  The referees that knew what they were doing  took the player cards from each player as they entered the half, including at the start of each half.   Once they had a player's card, he could sub out, but he wasn't getting back in.


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## twoclubpapa (Oct 24, 2016)

espola said:


> ...  The referees that knew what they were doing  took the player cards from each player as they entered the half, including at the start of each half.   Once they had a player's card, he could sub out, but he wasn't getting back in.


This is exactly what I observed several years ago when my son's DD played SCDSL Tier 1.  No entry as a sub without handing the AR their player card.  Cards returned at the interval to manage subs for the second half.


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## Surfref (Oct 25, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> ....What are the high school rules?  Is it unlimited?  Seem to remember a girl being subbed in for throw ins when near the opponents goal.


High School has unlimited substitutions.  There are limits as to when a team can substitute.  Only sub on own throw-in or corner kick, both teams on goal kick, after a goal, halftime.  Can sub when a card is given or for an injury.  Can also sub when the other team subs.  Cannot sub on a foul (direct free kick/PK) or infraction (Indirect free kick suck as offside).


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## Just a Parent (Oct 31, 2016)

Surfref said:


> In the games that I referee (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) that have restrictions on substitutions, the referee crew tracks the substitutions.  It is easy to track the substitutions if the referee crew requires the player to completely leave the field of play before the new player can come on.  SCDSL, ECNL and DA all allow the referee to add time at the end of each half, so there is no reason why referee crew would not be able to track the substitutes.  I know that not all referees track the subs in these leagues, because I have had coaches try to put players back in the game after they have been subbed out.  When I tell them that their player cannot reenter for the half, their response is usually, "The other referees let us do it."  And, my response is usually, "Evidently they did not read the (SCDSL, ECNL, etc.) rules."


SCDSL rules specifically say it is up to coaches to manage the re-entries.


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## Daniel Miller (Oct 31, 2016)

Unlimited substitution is always the best policy.  It allows games to be played at the highest intensity for the greatest percentage of time.  If you want players to "develop" their skills and decision-making process, then high-speed, high-intensity games is the only way to go.

Sure, some players will "develop" their ability to "pace themselves" if there are fewer substitutions, but who cares about that?  I want to see kids who can play hard; not rest hard.


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## gauchosean (Oct 31, 2016)

u19 National Cup last year was no re-entry, you had to give the player cards of those on the field to the linesman, when a player went in he would hand his card to the linesman. If you were out of cards you were out of subs. At the end of the first half you got all your cards back and did the same thing in the second half. 

Limiting subs at the older ages teaches kids to work it out and develop solutions. It keeps coaches from joy sticking the game, forces them to actually develop a plan and train the team to execute it and not just yank a player for a mistake. 

It also prevents the mindless substitution to just kill time at the end of games, how frustrating is it in a 1-0 game when a coach makes a substitution on every deadball and there is 15 subs in the last 5 minutes for no other purpose than to waste time.


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## bababooey (Oct 31, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> u19 National Cup last year was no re-entry, you had to give the player cards of those on the field to the linesman, when a player went in he would hand his card to the linesman. If you were out of cards you were out of subs. At the end of the first half you got all your cards back and did the same thing in the second half.
> 
> Limiting subs at the older ages teaches kids to work it out and develop solutions. It keeps coaches from joy sticking the game, forces them to actually develop a plan and train the team to execute it and not just yank a player for a mistake.
> 
> It also prevents the mindless substitution to just kill time at the end of games, how frustrating is it in a 1-0 game when a coach makes a substitution on every deadball and there is 15 subs in the last 5 minutes for no other purpose than to waste time.


Great post. Thanks.

I really agree with your last statement.


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## espola (Oct 31, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> u19 National Cup last year was no re-entry, you had to give the player cards of those on the field to the linesman, when a player went in he would hand his card to the linesman. If you were out of cards you were out of subs. At the end of the first half you got all your cards back and did the same thing in the second half.
> 
> Limiting subs at the older ages teaches kids to work it out and develop solutions. It keeps coaches from joy sticking the game, forces them to actually develop a plan and train the team to execute it and not just yank a player for a mistake.
> 
> It also prevents the mindless substitution to just kill time at the end of games, how frustrating is it in a 1-0 game when a coach makes a substitution on every deadball and there is 15 subs in the last 5 minutes for no other purpose than to waste time.


The referee has the power to add time lost due to time-wasting.


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## espola (Oct 31, 2016)

bababooey said:


> Great post. Thanks.
> 
> I really agree with your last statement.


What flavor was the koolaid?


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## bababooey (Oct 31, 2016)

espola said:


> What flavor was the koolaid?


Grape. Now go back to arguing with JAP.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 31, 2016)

espola said:


> The referee has the power to add time lost due to time-wasting.


What good does that do after they succeed in slowing down the tempo by their time wasting manouvres?


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## Round (Oct 31, 2016)

I have seen a lot of bad coaches follow the limited substitution method even when they didn't half to.  Easy for them, bad for the kids.  In most cases a little less than half the team basically play less than half the game.  Developmental league my but.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 31, 2016)

Round said:


> I have seen a lot of bad coaches follow the limited substitution method even when they didn't half to.  Easy for them, bad for the kids.  In most cases a little less than half the team basically play less than half the game.  Developmental league my but.


If you're going to play in a competitive league, it's only fair that you earn your spot. Players should compete for spots unless it's a show case or recruitment event where you want every player to get an equal chance at being seen.


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## Round (Oct 31, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> If you're going to play in a competitive league, it's only fair that you earn your spot. Players should compete for spots unless it's a show case or recruitment event where you want every player to get an equal chance at being seen.


I don't play, my kid does.  Maybe that's the problem.  Anyway, if you put the kid on your team, specifically at the younger ages, you are a failure and a fraud as a coach if you don't play that kid.  Or if you make money of the system  and support  it.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 31, 2016)

Round said:


> I don't play, my kid does.  Maybe that's the problem.  Anyway, if you put the kid on your team, specifically at the younger ages, you are a failure and a fraud as a coach if you don't play that kid.  Or if you make money of the system  and support  it.


I do make money off the system and support it. I also support the notion of kids earning their spots. I also support the notion of placing kids in teams and in leagues/playing circuits where they belong, are successful and enjoy the experience.


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## Bootizila (Nov 1, 2016)

The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals.  This especially holds true in the scdsl.  Yes in National cup, and the DA.  But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited. Also there is some value in these rules as their is a part of The Beautiful Game that IS about endurance and pace.  These aspects of the game are not developed by teams/Coaches that run shift after shift of subs so as to attempt to high press for the majority of the match.  The world does not play soccer that way.  Even the NCAA which has limits (lax ones) is looking to change these rules/laws so as to make the college game more in line with the world game.  Unlimited substitution is not the best answer, as  it too often turns the game and players not into great soccer players, but places too much value on stamina, speed, size of rooster, and willingness/focus on coach winning MOT developing skilled players.  Also as has been previously stated too many coaches effectively use sub'n as a way to waste time. Also refs for the most part they have limited ability (and incentive) to add time.


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Bootizila said:


> The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals.  This especially holds true in the scdsl.  Yes in National cup, and the DA.  But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited. . . . .


That's not true at all. No referee who does DA matches will allow substitutions not allowed by competition rules. 

As for SCDSL, it would be easy for match officials to control substitutions but as I mentioned earlier, per competitition rules it is up to coaches to control the reentries.


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## Bootizila (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> That's not true at all. No referee who does DA matches will allow substitutions not allowed by competition rules.
> 
> As for SCDSL, it would be easy for match officials to control substitutions but as I mentioned earlier, per competitition rules it is up to coaches to control the reentries.


Sorry Just A Parent, but it's true.  And it's true here in So Cal.  I have seen several DA matches (Not a lot, but some) that have not followed the USSDA rules as it relates to subs.   As for SCDSL its the wild west.  If the rule is being selectively enforced why included it?  I coached a match early this season where I had 13 healthy players in a 11v11 match (mid day, turf, 90's) and the official gave me a warning regarding substitutions, so we were forced to play short (After a player came off due to injury).


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## baldref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> SCDSL rules specifically say it is up to coaches to manage the re-entries.


They also say that the referee is to be familiar with these procedures. We are also told by our associations and assignors to monitor them. So we do. It's not difficult, although it would be easier if they adopted the card systems used by ECNL and other circuits.


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## Laced (Nov 1, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> *Unlimited substitution is always the best policy.  It allows games to be played at the highest intensity for the greatest percentage of time.*  If you want players to "develop" their skills and decision-making process, then high-speed, high-intensity games is the only way to go.
> 
> Sure, some players will "develop" their ability to "pace themselves" if there are fewer substitutions, but who cares about that?  I want to see kids who can play hard; not rest hard.


Unlimited subs only gives the appearance the game is played at a higher skill level and intensity level, because all players have fresh legs at all times. Players don't get a chance to test their skills with fatigued legs. Unlimited subs benefits clubs more than players, as clubs get to have a very large roster, and by rotating players give the appearance that everyone gets game time. Game minutes are finite, and limited subs would force clubs to have smaller, more reasonable roster size, but would reduce club profit.


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## Daniel Miller (Nov 1, 2016)

Laced said:


> Unlimited subs only gives the appearance the game is played at a higher skill level and intensity level, because all players have fresh legs at all times. Players don't get a chance to test their skills with fatigued legs.


I disagree that playing with "fatigued legs" is an important aspect of development.  Playing at high intensity and skill level always promotes development.  So give me unlimited substitutions, please.


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Bootizila said:


> Sorry Just A Parent, but it's true.  And it's true here in So Cal.  I have seen several DA matches (Not a lot, but some) that have not followed the USSDA rules as it relates to subs.


No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> They also say that the referee is to be familiar with these procedures. We are also told by our associations and assignors to monitor them. So we do. It's not difficult, although it would be easier if they adopted the card systems used by ECNL and other circuits.


In view of contradicting information on this and other issues in this specific league, I took the liberty of contacting the league head honcho directly. I carry her email with me stating coaches and not referees, are responsible for monitoring the reentries. Every now and then a coach would voice a complaint and I show them the email from the league.


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## espola (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?


So, in spite of the fact that it happened, it didn't happen.


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## timbuck (Nov 1, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> I disagree that playing with "fatigued legs" is an important aspect of development.  Playing at high intensity and skill level always promotes development.  So give me unlimited substitutions, please.


Agreee. Especially for kids that have not finished puberty.  
12-15 year olds should not be expected to increase their cardio endurance to a level where they can play hard for 80 minutes.  Their lungs/heart can handle it, but their joints will have issues. 
They'll be fine playing a full game once in a while, but if they start doing hardcore endurance training (ie- running 2-7+miles per day) without enough rest, you'll see overuse injuries. 
That ACL problem in a 13 year old isn't the result of one game and just being unlucky.  It's a build up of not enough rest/recovery.


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

espola said:


> So, in spite of the fact that it happened, it didn't happen.


Where did it happen? Location, date and time.

No, it didn't happen.


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## baldref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> In view of contradicting information on this and other issues in this specific league, I took the liberty of contacting the league head honcho directly. I carry her email with me stating coaches and not referees, are responsible for monitoring the reentries. Every now and then a coach would voice a complaint and I show them the email from the league.


All well and good. But as I said, it's not hard to do and I'm told to do it so I do. If I can "help" a coach that gets confused and tries to make a substitution that isn't allowable, then I shall


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> All well and good. But as I said, it's not hard to do and I'm told to do it so I do. If I can "help" a coach that gets confused and tries to make a substitution that isn't allowable, then I shall


I agree. It's so easy to manage. But when the league tells me it is the coaches' responsibility, I leave it to the coaches.


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## Laced (Nov 1, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Agreee. Especially for kids that have not finished puberty.
> 12-15 year olds should not be expected to increase their cardio endurance to a level where they can play hard for 80 minutes.  Their lungs/heart can handle it, but their joints will have issues.
> They'll be fine playing a full game once in a while, but if they start doing hardcore endurance training (ie- running 2-7+miles per day) without enough rest, you'll see overuse injuries.
> That ACL problem in a 13 year old isn't the result of one game and just being unlucky.  It's a build up of not enough rest/recovery.


There're rare exceptions, but all players are physically able to play full length games. Do you dispute that?

If a player is to play a full game, his/her form tends to deteriorate considerably toward the end of the game. Do you disagree?


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## baldref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I agree. It's so easy to manage. But when the league tells me it is the coaches' responsibility, I leave it to the coaches.


So should I not do what the two associations tell me and my assignors ask me to do?
that might be counter productive to me getting those games. 
And I think we're splitting hairs, which is never productive for a bald man like myself.


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## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Laced said:


> There're rare exceptions, but all players are physically able to play full length games. Do you dispute that?
> 
> If a player is to play a full game, his/her form tends to deteriorate considerably toward the end of the game. Do you disagree?


Yes.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> So should I not do what the two associations tell me and my assignors ask me to do?
> that might be counter productive to me getting those games.
> And I think we're splitting hairs, which is never productive for a bald man like myself.


You will have to make those decisions yourself. All I'm saying is that the league specifically says, in writing, that that's the coaches' responsibility and that I carry the evidence of that with me to show if necessary. I also have another email from the league, (albeit on a different topic), stating that the league has rules for a reason and that referees must enforce all of them even if they do not agree with them. I agree with that sentiment. I can point out several rules I do not agree with, but if I accept an assignment I must enforce all rules regardless of my opinion of them.


----------



## baldref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> You will have to make those decisions yourself. All I'm saying is that the league specifically says, in writing, that that's the coaches' responsibility and that I carry the evidence of that with me to show if necessary. I also have another email from the league, (albeit on a different topic), stating that the league has rules for a reason and that referees must enforce all of them even if they do not agree with them. I agree with that sentiment. I can point out several rules I do not agree with, but if I accept an assignment I must enforce all rules regardless of my opinion of them.


Once again, splitting hairs but, I don't read the rules to say that the referee should not monitor the substitution procedure, so I don't feel I'm going against league policies, and at the same time satisfying my "supervisors" within the parameters of where I am assigned. 
Hypothetically speaking, if an assessor knew only the league policy you carry, would the referee be nicked for enforcing the substitution policy if the coach attempted to circumvent and  insisted it was not the referees business?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> Once again, splitting hairs but, I don't read the rules to say that the referee should not monitor the substitution procedure, so I don't feel I'm going against league policies, and at the same time satisfying my "supervisors" within the parameters of where I am assigned.
> Hypothetically speaking, if an assessor knew only the league policy you carry, would the referee be nicked for enforcing the substitution policy if the coach attempted to circumvent and  insisted it was not the referees business?


A good rule of thumb we try to teach referees is to do what competition rules/LOTG/procedure, etc. tell you to do and not create hypotheticals of what these do not prevent you from doing. In other words, keep it simple and straight forward.

But coming back to your specific question, if the referees' actions causes the game to deteriorate or brings other problems because of the argument created between him and the coach because of this issue, then yes, that will be an issue in the assessment. If not, then no issue. The question would then be, didn't you have other options other than to argue with the coach? Couldn't you include the fact that the coach was not following substitution procedures, provide the league with the evidence and move on?


----------



## baldref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> A good rule of thumb we try to teach referees is to do what competition rules/LOTG/procedure, etc. tell you to do and not create hypotheticals of what these do not prevent you from doing. In other words, keep it simple and straight forward.
> 
> But coming back to your specific question, if the referees' actions causes the game to deteriorate or brings other problems because of the argument created between him and the coach because of this issue, then yes, that will be an issue in the assessment. If not, then no issue. The question would then be, didn't you have other options other than to argue with the coach? Couldn't you include the fact that the coach was not following substitution procedures, provide the league with the evidence and move on?


Yes
But I'm not sure that the competition rules tell me exactly that. As you said, the rules are ambiguous, as what is provided to the referees are the substitution procedures, not the clause in the full league rules that you had clarified by the league hierarchy. 
Anyway, thank you for the answer.


----------



## Surfref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Where did it happen? Location, date and time.
> 
> No, it didn't happen.


Hate to say this, but it did happen.  I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games.  Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.

You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules.  There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working.  Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.


----------



## espola (Nov 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Hate to say this, but it did happen.  I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games.  Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.
> 
> You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules.  There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working.  Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.


I never watched any DA games closely enough to track the substitutes, but I was the game organizer for a few years in USL Super-20 League games, which had a similar one-entry-per-half restriction.  I sat at the scorer's table with a representative from the other team so that we could cross-check each other's game report forms, making sure that we got goals, fouls, cards, and substitutions credited to the correct players.  As I have already stated, the better referees used the player card method, typically by moving a player's card from one stack to another as he entered the game.  Some referees, however, didn't seem to care, and left substitutions entirely in the hands of the coaches.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Hate to say this, but it did happen.  I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games.  Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.
> 
> You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules.  There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working.  Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.


Yes mistakes do happen, but at higher levels administrative mistakes are not excused. Every referee working DA games signs the league agreement before they are assigned. Substitution is the most basic of basics.


----------



## espola (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Yes mistakes do happen, but at higher levels administrative mistakes are not excused. Every referee working DA games signs the league agreement before they are assigned. Substitution is the most basic of basics.


So it happened, but it didn't happen, but it does happen.

If a discussion comes down to a disagreement between JaP and anybody, I'm going with anybody.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

espola said:


> So it happened, but it didn't happen, but it does happen.
> 
> If a discussion comes down to a disagreement between JaP and anybody, I'm going with anybody.


Quote Bootizila, "The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals. This especially holds true in the scdsl. Yes in National cup, and the DA. But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited"

What location, date, time?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Quote Bootizila, "The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals. This especially holds true in the scdsl. Yes in National cup, and the DA. But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited"
> 
> What location, date, time?


I can't believe it, but you are actually dumber and more arrogant that espola and quickly approaching MAP.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I can't believe it, but you are actually dumber and more arrogant that espola and quickly approaching MAP.


It's hilarious that you actually think you're capable of analysis.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> It's hilarious that you actually think you're capable of analysis.


I can believe how capable you are of being a dumb ass.


----------



## espola (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Quote Bootizila, "The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals. This especially holds true in the scdsl. Yes in National cup, and the DA. But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited"
> 
> What location, date, time?


You are such a buffoon that you don't even realize that the people you think respect you are laughing behind your back.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

espola said:


> You are such a buffoon that you don't even realize that the people you think respect you are laughing behind your back.


I'm laughing at you right now and I don't even need to go behind your back.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I can believe how capable you are of being a dumb ass.


So, when are you moving back to Belarus?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> So, when are you moving back to Belarus?


Sorry, I don't get it.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Sorry, I don't get it.


I know.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I know.


Good one I guess, still looking for bleachers DH?


----------



## socalkdg (Nov 1, 2016)

No eating popcorn emoji.


----------



## Surfref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Yes mistakes do happen, but at higher levels administrative mistakes are not excused. Every referee working DA games signs the league agreement before they are assigned. Substitution is the most basic of basics.


I was surprised when I heard because the referee that made the mistake is very good.  Evidently he had worked a PDL or NPSL game the day before and just spaced the substitute rules during the first half of the DA game.  ARs realized the mistake and told the referee.  I am assuming one of the coaches (probably losing coach) reported the mistake.  Even the best referees in the world make mistakes.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Nov 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I was surprised when I heard because the referee that made the mistake is very good.  Evidently he had worked a PDL or NPSL game the day before and just spaced the substitute rules during the first half of the DA game.  ARs realized the mistake and told the referee.  I am assuming one of the coaches (probably losing coach) reported the mistake.  Even the best referees in the world make mistakes.


Except jap


----------



## Surfref (Nov 1, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Quote Bootizila, "The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals. This especially holds true in the scdsl. Yes in National cup, and the DA. But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited"
> 
> What location, date, time?


He may be talking about the U-12 DA.  The U12 DA does have unlimited subs.  The U13/14 have 7 subs over three moments which may seem like unlimited.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I was surprised when I heard because the referee that made the mistake is very good.  Evidently he had worked a PDL or NPSL game the day before and just spaced the substitute rules during the first half of the DA game.  ARs realized the mistake and told the referee.  I am assuming one of the coaches (probably losing coach) reported the mistake.  Even the best referees in the world make mistakes.


If it is the same game I'm thinking of, it was one substitution and the restart was too fast for the referee to do anything about it except report it. The poster talked of many DA games where substitution rules were not enforced. That didn't happen.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> He may be talking about the U-12 DA.  The U12 DA does have unlimited subs.  The U13/14 have 7 subs over three moments which may seem like unlimited.


So why blame the referees for his own ignorance of the rules?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 1, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Except jap


What field, date, time?


----------



## mahrez (Nov 1, 2016)

In the U12-14 DA games I've seen in person or video some coaches and officials are still getting used to application of the sub rules and the detail accounting in the game reports.

For U13+ I've seen both coaches and officials argue about when subs are allowed, how many at a time, and how many total.  The substitution pass card has all the info but getting every body to understand and use them properly is a small learning curve.  The halftime subing is one area that has caused some confusion since it doesn't count as one of the 3 "moments".   Why halftime is not a moment (tiny print on the card) is strange to some and that takes some getting used used to the terminology.  A injury is a moment for example and counts as one of the 3 but I've seen them not count those and teams getting 3 other moments plus the half time sub.  There is also a special suspected head injury sub rule that allows a temp sub for evals purposes but some don't know about that one much either.

The post game completion of the game day report/stats by the ref crew for the goals, subs, and misconducts that is verified by both clubs before they sign is suppose to catch any discrepancies.  The number of misconducts on the reports vs actual in the game seems to be the one of the other area of concern during these reviews.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

mahrez said:


> In the U12-14 DA games I've seen in person or video some coaches and officials are still getting used to application of the sub rules and the detail accounting in the game reports.
> 
> For U13+ I've seen both coaches and officials argue about when subs are allowed, how many at a time, and how many total.  The substitution pass card has all the info but getting every body to understand and use them properly is a small learning curve.  The halftime subing is one area that has caused some confusion since it doesn't count as one of the 3 "moments".   Why halftime is not a moment (tiny print on the card) is strange to some and that takes some getting used used to the terminology.  A injury is a moment for example and counts as one of the 3 but I've seen them not count those and teams getting 3 other moments plus the half time sub.  There is also a special suspected head injury sub rule that allows a temp sub for evals purposes but some don't know about that one much either.
> 
> The post game completion of the game day report/stats by the ref crew for the goals, subs, and misconducts that is verified by both clubs before they sign is suppose to catch any discrepancies.  The number of misconducts on the reports vs actual in the game seems to be the one of the other area of concern during these reviews.[/QUOTEThat is why referees must read the handbook and pass a mandatory quiz before they can be assigned to any game.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

mahrez said:


> In the U12-14 DA games I've seen in person or video some coaches and officials are still getting used to application of the sub rules and the detail accounting in the game reports.
> 
> For U13+ I've seen both coaches and officials argue about when subs are allowed, how many at a time, and how many total.  The substitution pass card has all the info but getting every body to understand and use them properly is a small learning curve.  The halftime subing is one area that has caused some confusion since it doesn't count as one of the 3 "moments".   Why halftime is not a moment (tiny print on the card) is strange to some and that takes some getting used used to the terminology.  A injury is a moment for example and counts as one of the 3 but I've seen them not count those and teams getting 3 other moments plus the half time sub.  There is also a special suspected head injury sub rule that allows a temp sub for evals purposes but some don't know about that one much either.
> 
> The post game completion of the game day report/stats by the ref crew for the goals, subs, and misconducts that is verified by both clubs before they sign is suppose to catch any discrepancies.  The number of misconducts on the reports vs actual in the game seems to be the one of the other area of concern during these reviews.


That is why referees must read the game day procedures and pass a mandatory quiz before being assigned to these games.


----------



## Surfref (Nov 2, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> So why blame the referees for his own ignorance of the rules?


Referees are an easy target.  It is easier for parents to say a team lost because the referee sucked than it is to face the truth that the team just did not play well.


----------



## Bootizila (Nov 2, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?





Just a Parent said:


> No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?


 Just A Parent, or should I say Just A Referee, (sorry J.A.P, i could not help myself)  I'm sorry but it has happened and it does happen.  As primarily a coach (I also have been ref'n for 15+ years) it does happen.  To simply state that it is too easy to follow the rules and thus does not happen is naive to say the least.  As for the date, and  match of said offences, I have very little desire to throw a ref (or a coach) under the bus on a public forum, much less do the research and track back to the specifics offences.  Also while I do not coach in the DA, I do and have coached in csl and scdsl for many years and I can not tell you how many times I have had to "help" the match officials as it pertains to:

1. the official rules of the gaming circuit n question.  You find some who incorectly apply scdsl rules to CSL or vice verse.
2. improper understanding of the LOTG.  " you can't score on a KO", Yes you were off side (in my own d half?), he got the ball first so it CAN"T be a foul.
3. Refs not following assessors mandates regarding "requested" water breaks, or other points of emphasis. 
3. Match officials in SCDSL making threats of issuing cards in my fore mentioned post regarding subs.  in essence not following league rules.

J.A.P.
"In view of contradicting information on this and other issues in this specific league, I took the liberty of contacting the league head honcho directly. I carry her email with me stating coaches and not referees, are responsible for monitoring the reentries. Every now and then a coach would voice a complaint and I show them the email from the league."

This is key to why I even posted on this thread.  As it relates to subsitution (and unfortunatly too many other issues) so much that should be cut and dry is not.  Thus between coaches who use subsitution as a tactic to either time waste or to play a level of high pressing that would be impossible with limited subs/re entry, and refs who do not know or chose not to enforce the proper subsituition  rules (and or LOTG) of any gaming circuit this (Subsitution) issue WILL continue to be a major point of discussion/contenion.

Just A Parent, the question I have for you is why are you so invested in maintaining the illusion of the nobility and sanctity of EVERY MATCH OFFICIAL?.  We can continue to digress and make this a thread which is NOT about the topic at hand, but if so WHY?

Respectfully


----------



## espola (Nov 2, 2016)

Bootizila said:


> Just A Parent, the question I have for you is why are you so invested in maintaining the illusion of the nobility and sanctity of EVERY MATCH OFFICIAL?.  We can continue to digress and make this a thread which is NOT about the topic at hand, but if so WHY?


Sometimes you know how a person deals with other people by the way he deals with you.

I know from personal experience that JaP has lied about me, so I start from there.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

Bootizila said:


> Just A Parent, or should I say Just A Referee, (sorry J.A.P, i could not help myself)  I'm sorry but it has happened and it does happen.  As primarily a coach (I also have been ref'n for 15+ years) it does happen.  To simply state that it is too easy to follow the rules and thus does not happen is naive to say the least.  As for the date, and  match of said offences, I have very little desire to throw a ref (or a coach) under the bus on a public forum, much less do the research and track back to the specifics offences.  Also while I do not coach in the DA, I do and have coached in csl and scdsl for many years and I can not tell you how many times I have had to "help" the match officials as it pertains to:
> 
> 1. the official rules of the gaming circuit n question.  You find some who incorectly apply scdsl rules to CSL or vice verse.
> 2. improper understanding of the LOTG.  " you can't score on a KO", Yes you were off side (in my own d half?), he got the ball first so it CAN"T be a foul.
> ...


None of the referees who work DA games would do any of the things you describe here. If they did they wouldn't be assigned to them in the first place. If you know one, let's hear it.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

espola said:


> Sometimes you know how a person deals with other people by the way he deals with you.
> 
> I know from personal experience that JaP has lied about me, so I start from there.


A supposed adult who discusses little girls' underwear or who doesn't accept responsibility when caught trying to circumvent rules deserves nothing less than to be treated with contempt.


----------



## espola (Nov 2, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> A supposed adult who discusses little girls' underwear or who doesn't accept responsibility when caught trying to circumvent rules deserves nothing less than to be treated with contempt.


Q.E.D.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

espola said:


> Q.E.D.


Muhahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!


----------



## espola (Nov 2, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Muhahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!


Have you had that CAT scan yet?  Can't you get one for free?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 2, 2016)

espola said:


> Have you had that CAT scan yet?  Can't you get one for free?


If you're talking about CT scan, I don't think those can determine why one has contempt for perverts. Not yet anyway.


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> If you're talking about CT scan, I don't think those can determine why one has contempt for perverts. Not yet anyway.


After a period of relatively harmless behavior, it is inevitable that JaP will revert to character, thus reminding long-time forum readers (and informing new readers) of his true nature.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> After a period of relatively harmless behavior, it is inevitable that JaP will revert to character, thus reminding long-time forum readers (and informing new readers) of his true nature.


You must obviously think having contempt for perverts is a bad thing.


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> You must obviously think having contempt for perverts is a bad thing.


I have contempt for those who post lies about others who have committed no offense other than to point out your lies.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> I have contempt for those who post lies about others who have committed no offense other than to point out your lies.


In fact, as much as I have tried to, I have yet to find anyone or met anyone who has ever met any adult who talks about little girls' underwear. Not one. In that, you are unique. To say I have contempt for you is to grossly underestimate my opinion of you.


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> In fact, as much as I have tried to, I have yet to find anyone or met anyone who has ever met any adult who talks about little girls' underwear. Not one. In that, you are unique. To say I have contempt for you is to grossly underestimate my opinion of you.


So you missed that whole thread (actually, I think there were several) where parents complained about referees at State Cup making their children change their underwear before they could play?  I assume that if they were parents of State-Cup-age children, then they were adults.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> So you missed that whole thread (actually, I think there were several) where parents complained about referees at State Cup making their children change their underwear before they could play?  I assume that if they were parents of State-Cup-age children, then they were adults.


I remember the threads well. No one then or since, mentioned little girls' underwear except you. You're uniquely talented in that.


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I remember the threads well. No one then or since, mentioned little girls' underwear except you. You're uniquely talented in that.


So they talked about it, but didn't mention it?  Did they have JaP-word-game training?

As long as we are on the topic, do you recall what your response was when I stated that the color of little girls' underwear was none of the referee's business?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> So they talked about it, but didn't mention it?  Did they have JaP-word-game training?
> 
> As long as we are on the topic, do you recall what your response was when I stated that the color of little girls' underwear was none of the referee's business?


No one means exactly that. No one.

I remember treating your little girls' underwear obsession with the contempt it deserved. Do you remember it differently?


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> No one means exactly that. No one.
> 
> I remember treating your little girls' underwear obsession with the contempt it deserved. Do you remember it differently?


Did you have any contempt for the referees that were embarrassing the children on the fields and pissing off their parents?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> Did you have any contempt for the referees that were embarrassing the children on the fields and pissing off their parents?


Is this your way of trying to run away from your perversion?

Did I mention my contempt for people who do not accept responsibility for their actions?


----------



## espola (Nov 3, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Is this your way of trying to run away from your perversion?
> 
> Did I mention my contempt for people who do not accept responsibility for their actions?


The whole conversation started with my agreeing with those parents' complaints about the referee behavior.  You avoided that criticism by accusing me of perversion, just as you are doing here now.

Have you no shame?  (Why do I ask such a pointless question?)


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 3, 2016)

espola said:


> The whole conversation started with my agreeing with those parents' complaints about the referee behavior.  You avoided that criticism by accusing me of perversion, just as you are doing here now.
> 
> Have you no shame?  (Why do I ask such a pointless question?)


The fact is, you are the first and only  supposed ed adult to have mentioned little girls' underwear in any conversation on any topic. Those are your exact words.


----------



## espola (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> The fact is, you are the first and only  supposed ed adult to have mentioned little girls' underwear in any conversation on any topic. Those are your exact words.


The color of little girls' underwear is none of the referee's business.

Do you agree or disagree?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 4, 2016)

espola said:


> The color of little girls' underwear is none of the referee's business.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree?


See what I mean? What adult talks about little girls' underwear? You are a contemptible, sick, for lack of a better word, man.


----------



## espola (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> See what I mean? What adult talks about little girls' underwear? You are a contemptible, sick, for lack of a better word, man.


I see you didn't agree, just like the first time this came up.


----------



## Kopi (Nov 4, 2016)

Maybe you two can start your own thread this whole conversation is weird and sounds personal


----------



## espola (Nov 4, 2016)

Kopi said:


> Maybe you two can start your own thread this whole conversation is weird and sounds personal


JaP's responses are typical of his behavior when cornered - denial, lies, false ad hominem attacks.  I guess we have seen enough this time to confirm that noting has changed since the days when he gained fame for arguing with thermometers.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 4, 2016)

espola said:


> I see you didn't agree, just like the first time this came up.


I see your perverse proclivity of focusing on little girls' underwear continues strong as ever. If I didn't have such contempt for you I would have advised you to seek help.


----------



## espola (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I see your perverse proclivity of focusing on little girls' underwear continues strong as ever. If I didn't have such contempt for you I would have advised you to seek help.


Circle.

I see on reviewing the thread that I should have said this about a half-dozen posts ago.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 4, 2016)

espola said:


> JaP's responses are typical of his behavior when cornered - denial, lies, false ad hominem attacks.  I guess we have seen enough this time to confirm that noting has changed since the days when he gained fame for arguing with thermometers.


To demonstrate the degree of depravity of this man, I'm going to ask one question. Has the topic of little girls' underwear ever cropped up in any discussion on any topic that anyone here has ever engaged in?


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 4, 2016)

espola said:


> Circle.
> 
> I see on reviewing the thread that I should have said this about a half-dozen posts ago.


To say you are sick is an understatement.


----------



## espola (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> To demonstrate the degree of depravity of this man, I'm going to ask one question. Has the topic of little girls' underwear ever cropped up in any discussion on any topic that anyone here has ever engaged in?


This thread started with an observation about referees not enforcing substitution rules.  After your usual tactics of denial and bullying couldn't shut off the comments, you reverted to personal attacks.  No one is surprised at that any more.  It's all you have left.


----------



## Just a Parent (Nov 4, 2016)

espola said:


> This thread started with an observation about referees not enforcing substitution rules.  After your usual tactics of denial and bullying couldn't shut off the comments, you reverted to personal attacks.  No one is surprised at that any more.  It's all you have left.


Your usual default response when confronted with your own words to show your perversion is to cry personal attacks. No one is buying.


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## Multi Sport (Feb 2, 2017)

Kopi said:


> Maybe you two can start your own thread this whole conversation is weird and sounds personal


These two have been at this for years. Part of me believe that they are one in the same and are the inspiration for the movie Split..


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## espola (Feb 3, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> These two have been at this for years. Part of me believe that they are one in the same and are the inspiration for the movie Split..


That's "one and the same", and we're not.  He doesn't like that I tell the truth about him, so he makes up lies about me.


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## Just a Parent (Feb 3, 2017)

espola said:


> That's "one and the same", and we're not.  He doesn't like that I tell the truth about him, so he makes up lies about me.


As far as anyone is aware, you are the one and only supposed adult to have ever brought up "little girls' underwear" in a discussion on any subject. The words between the quotation marks are your exact words without an iota's change. I know perverts come in all shapes but in this, you are unique.


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## espola (Feb 3, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> As far as anyone is aware, you are the one and only supposed adult to have ever brought up "little girls' underwear" in a discussion on any subject. The words between the quotation marks are your exact words without an iota's change. I know perverts come in all shapes but in this, you are unique.


q.e.d.


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## Just a Parent (Feb 4, 2017)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


Muahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!


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## SOCCERMINION (Feb 5, 2017)




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