# Outdoor and Indoor Youth and Recreational Adult Sports guidance



## lafalafa (Dec 14, 2020)

Outdoor and Indoor Youth and Recreational Adult Sports guidance





						Outdoor and Indoor Youth and Recreational Adult Sports
					






					www.cdph.ca.gov
				




Soccer permitted once in orange tier but not before January 25th 2021

Teams must not participate in out-of-state tournaments; several multistate outbreaks have been reported in CA residents and around the nation.

Corn hole it is.


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## lafalafa (Dec 14, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338665009400803329


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 14, 2020)

Orange is 1-3.9 / 100,000.
Masks must be worn to play games regardless of category, correct?


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## SoulTrain (Dec 14, 2020)

Of all the ridiculous things California has put out, this might be at the top of the list.  The entire list is based upon speculation, not science or statistics.  Looks like Ghaly was throwing darts deciding what fits into each category.


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## ITFC Blues (Dec 14, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Orange is 1-3.9 / 100,000.
> Masks must be worn to play games regardless of category, correct?


This seems to rule out contact in training so the 6 foot rule seems to apply until 1/25.  If this is correct it would push high school football into the 2nd week of February if they need 10 days of practice before playing any games. 

*Youth and adult sports are classified below by their level of contact and transmission risk. This classification applies to competition or training/practice with others. It does not apply to individual conditioning or exercise.*


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## Gkdad1 (Dec 14, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Orange is 1-3.9 / 100,000.
> Masks must be worn to play games regardless of category, correct?


The masks issue is interesting. It says they “should” be worn when playing and “must” be worn when on the sidelines. So I guess you don’t have to wear one when playing.


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## ITFC Blues (Dec 14, 2020)

Gkdad1 said:


> The masks issue is interesting. It says they “should” be worn when playing and “must” be worn when on the sidelines. So I guess you don’t have to wear one when playing.


I read that to mean that the "should" is due to an out where the mask is a hazard.  You can't safely wear a mask playing water polo, but you can while on the bench.  I take it to refer mainly to watersports as being an exception.


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 14, 2020)

SoulTrain said:


> Of all the ridiculous things California has put out, this might be at the top of the list.  The entire list is based upon speculation, not science or statistics.  Looks like Ghaly was throwing darts deciding what fits into each category.


It's not a surprise, though, right? This is pretty consistent with their approach the whole time.


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## Gkdad1 (Dec 14, 2020)

ITFC Blues said:


> I read that to mean that the "should" is due to an out where the mask is a hazard.  You can't safely wear a mask playing water polo, but you can while on the bench.  I take it to refer mainly to watersports as being an exception.


There is definitely room for interpretation. To me I read it as a recommendation.


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## notintheface (Dec 14, 2020)

If you don't have your kids signed up for cross country, do it now.


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## lafalafa (Dec 14, 2020)

Gkdad1 said:


> There is definitely room for interpretation. To me I read it as a recommendation.


Yes same but depends on how counties or city heath revises there own guidance now as a result of this update.  Some like LA may require them at all times.

Glad my boy also runs track, now that he knows hitting the treadmill as I type.


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## younothat (Dec 14, 2020)

Good the state released a interim something? 

Soccer has been misclassified, to put it in the same risk as football or high risk is misguided. Changes since the November drafts now include harsher measures and the soccer lobby has let us down big time.

The travel not suggestions will be taken with a grain of salt

Just glad doesn't include collegiate or pro sports since there is good money in that and the virus knows $ cures all.


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## DodgerBlue1988 (Dec 15, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338665009400803329


Does soccer have to wait for their given county to be in the "ORANGE TIER" to be cleared ?


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## crush (Dec 15, 2020)

SoulTrain said:


> Of all the ridiculous things California has put out, this might be at the top of the list.  The entire list is based upon speculation, not science or statistics.  Looks like Ghaly was throwing darts deciding what fits into each category.


Flounder, I love you man!!!  Nice ride your bro had too....lol!!!


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## Desert Hound (Dec 15, 2020)

DodgerBlue1988 said:


> Does soccer have to wait for their given county to be in the "ORANGE TIER" to be cleared ?


Nope. You just have to wait until the fat lady sings and then all is good to go. At least that is my understanding.


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## lafalafa (Dec 15, 2020)

DodgerBlue1988 said:


> Does soccer have to wait for their given county to be in the "ORANGE TIER" to be cleared ?


Yes unfortunately and somehow soccer was moved to higher risk instead of medium like it was originally with baseball.

Not sure if this is just a interim release, seems like it is with talk of Jan revisions and this is some kind of letter or draft.  Will the governor or heath dept head release or talk about this?

Permitted Youth and Recreational Adult Sports by County Tier seems to cover that question.

Local health departments and school districts may have stricter rules and should be consulted to confirm what is allowed.


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## soccersc (Dec 15, 2020)

Well if CIF follows these guidelines the only sports that have any chance this year are the ones in tier one (Purple) and maybe (Red). Even when the numbers were low at the end of summer there weren't any So Cal counties in the Orange Tier.  That's too bad for so many kids...freshman their first experience in HS and Seniors, many who will never wear a jersey or play competitively again, they definitely lose out the most.


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## Grace T. (Dec 15, 2020)

SoulTrain said:


> Of all the ridiculous things California has put out, this might be at the top of the list.  The entire list is based upon speculation, not science or statistics.  Looks like Ghaly was throwing darts deciding what fits into each category.


yup. Distancing in dodgeball is the same as volleyball but dodgeball was lower category. Soccer and football in same category but cheer is lower category.  Waterpolo in soccer category but masks in the pool. Some people just clearly have a better lobby than we do.


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## dad4 (Dec 15, 2020)

There are only three categories.  Yes, the highest contact sport in each category will be higher risk than the lowest contact sport in each category.

Did you want them to wait another 3 months to get exact scientific evidence on every sport known to man, or did you want them to publish a decent set of rules so we knew what to plan for?

We wanted them to do something kind of like Washington. They did.  Why are we complaining about it?


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## socalkdg (Dec 15, 2020)

Guess my kid is running track at school. They put girls Lacrosse and boys lacrosse in different categories? Do they have different rules? I thought Lacrosse was more physical than soccer? Indoor basketball is never happening. How football and soccer can be put in the same category is absurd. Blocking and tackling. Sheesh.


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## Glitterhater (Dec 15, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> yup. Distancing in dodgeball is the same as volleyball but dodgeball was lower category. Soccer and football in same category but cheer is lower category.  Waterpolo in soccer category but masks in the pool. Some people just clearly have a better lobby than we do.


Cheerleaders literally hold each other and shout in each others faces. How is that safer? (Not questionning you, just the stupid rule!)


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## MacDre (Dec 15, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Some people just clearly have a better lobby than we do.


No.  For the most part, nobody plays sports like dodgeball and others in that category; it’s a red herring.  Sports are essentially banned in the first tier.


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## socalkdg (Dec 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> There are only three categories.  Yes, the highest contact sport in each category will be higher risk than the lowest contact sport in each category.
> 
> Did you want them to wait another 3 months to get exact scientific evidence on every sport known to man, or did you want them to publish a decent set of rules so we knew what to plan for?
> 
> We wanted them to do something kind of like Washington. They did.  Why are we complaining about it?


I agree.   We are happy they finally did this.   Why didn't they stay with what Washington and every other sport has done.  They have had 9 months to get scientific evidence so the rules should have been better than what they gave us.


Washington and the US rules:

"Low Risk sports are Cross country, golf, swimming and diving, tennis and track and field, sideline cheerleading also able to resume with no contact. 
Moderate-risk sports are baseball, bowling, gymnastics, soccer, softball and volleyball.
High-risk sports are also allowed to begin intra-squad competition in counties that fall in the moderate-risk tier. Those sports are basketball, football, wrestling and cheerleading and dance with contact."

Funny thing at our High School is the two main events cheerleading is at is football games and basketball games.


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## watfly (Dec 15, 2020)

soccersc said:


> Well if CIF follows these guidelines the only sports that have any chance this year are the ones in tier one (Purple) and maybe (Red). Even when the numbers were low at the end of summer there weren't any So Cal counties in the Orange Tier.  That's too bad for so many kids...freshman their first experience in HS and Seniors, many who will never wear a jersey or play competitively again, they definitely lose out the most.


So my daughter can Cheer, but what exactly will she be cheering for?


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## dad4 (Dec 15, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Guess my kid is running track at school. They put girls Lacrosse and boys lacrosse in different categories? Do they have different rules? I thought Lacrosse was more physical than soccer? Indoor basketball is never happening. How football and soccer can be put in the same category is absurd. Blocking and tackling. Sheesh.


Boys and girls lacrosse are very different rules.  Boys lacrosse is full contact, with full pads.  Girls lacrosse is non contact, played in shorts and a tank top.  They shouldn’t even be called the same sport.


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## crush (Dec 15, 2020)

SOL is my new slogan.  I got behind on a few payments and one collection person said she has to send me to Mr Experian if i dont pay up.  I told her that's ok, I'm trying to eat so go ahead and ruin me for life.  She laughed and said sorry and she's just doing her job.  I had a 796 score and me wife had 810 in our hay day so I know the true self under normal circumstances.  What a score what a great guy!!!  Today, oh man, not good.  I'm a loser in the old system now so I'm hoping someone intervenes asap.  Reset?  Reboot? Pause and start over?  Give me a food card and I just sit around inside my house?  I have no skills right now that fit essential worker so SOL in this state.  I tried to be a plumber after pro baseball failed me.  Problem for me is any site or smell of someone else poo poo makes me throw up.  Plus, I'm not a very handy dude, if you know what I mean.  I just think of ideas and give them away.


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## MacDre (Dec 15, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> I agree.   We are happy they finally did this.   Why didn't they stay with what Washington and every other sport has done.  They have had 9 months to get scientific evidence so the rules should have been better than what they gave us.
> 
> 
> Washington and the US rules:
> ...


IDK, but I’d guess that soccer is low to moderate risk in Washington because not many folks are interested in soccer up there, especially in the winter.


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## crush (Dec 15, 2020)

MacDre said:


> IDK, but I’d guess that soccer is low to moderate risk in Washington because not many folks are interested in soccer up there, especially in the winter.


No way Dre.  Five Points is always playing ball.  I was up in Seattle Jan 21st and girls were practicing in the rain.  Seattle U ring a bell?  The girls play soccer and are tough as nails because they play in the cold and the dark.  I have a socal friend that got a ride to Nebraska back in late 90s.  She said her hair would be frozen from practicing in the snow and sleet.  Plus light rain would drip on her face and turn into ice before roll off her face.  She got the heck out and finished her career in Sunny California.


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## MacDre (Dec 15, 2020)

crush said:


> No way Dre.  Five Points is always playing ball.  I was up in Seattle Jan 21st and girls were practicing in the rain.  Seattle U ring a bell?  The girls play soccer and are tough as nails because they play in the cold and the dark.  I have a socal friend that got a ride to Nebraska back in late 90s.  She said her hair would be frozen from practicing in the snow and sleet.  Plus light rain would drip on her face and turn into ice before roll off her face.  She got the heck out and finished her career in Sunny California.


Not talking about college or pro soccer.  What’s the club soccer landscape like in Washington, Oregon, or Vancouver, CA?


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## Kicker4Life (Dec 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> There are only three categories.  Yes, the highest contact sport in each category will be higher risk than the lowest contact sport in each category.
> 
> Did you want them to wait another 3 months to get exact scientific evidence on every sport known to man, or did you want them to publish a decent set of rules so we knew what to plan for?
> 
> We wanted them to do something kind of like Washington. They did.  Why are we complaining about it?


They have had 9 months.   Stop defending arbitrary guidelines you know you don’t agree with just to keep your position.  

If your can’t figure out why people are complaining about it....I don’t know that anyone can help you figure it out.


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## soccer4us (Dec 15, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> They have had 9 months.   Stop defending arbitrary guidelines you know you don’t agree with just to keep your position.
> 
> If your can’t figure out why people are complaining about it....I don’t know that anyone can help you figure it out.


The real question. Why wasn't this put put in September when actually some areas could reach orange? Oh right, only release it when we know the state can't reach it for months on months. Fits Newsome's patterns. I can't wait for when he tries telling college recruiting age teams they can't travel come February/March. Hopefully you don't live in Santa Clara county where they will just threaten to destroy and ruin a clubs ability to run. Ban sports the are most dangerous or limit what they can do aka indoor basketball in a small gym. Let those sports that have proven it can be done safely with no outbreaks aka soccer


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## dad4 (Dec 15, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Not talking about college or pro soccer.  What’s the club soccer landscape like in Washington, Oregon, or Vancouver, CA?


Seattle is pretty strong.  WA/OR is one of the two big clusters in ECNL NW.  The other one is Sacramento-SF-SJ.


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 15, 2020)

watfly said:


> So my daughter can Cheer, but what exactly will she be cheering for?


We Want! Better #Science!
We Want! Better #Science!


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## socalkdg (Dec 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Boys and girls lacrosse are very different rules.  Boys lacrosse is full contact, with full pads.  Girls lacrosse is non contact, played in shorts and a tank top.  They shouldn’t even be called the same sport.


Wow, very different.  So girls lacrosse similar to soccer.


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## watfly (Dec 15, 2020)

watfly said:


> So my daughter can Cheer, but what exactly will she be cheering for?


"Offense, offense, get the bag in the hole"
"Give me a J, give me an O, give me H, N, S, O, N, VILLE.  What does that spell Johnsonville Brats!"


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## Grace T. (Dec 16, 2020)

Apparently CIF was pushing for all team sports to be in the red zone.  The state said no.  Editorial here: it looks like one of the ways it worked out for soccer (and water polo) is the were sacrificial lambs in the attempt to save football.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339248192991346695


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## crush (Dec 16, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Not talking about college or pro soccer.  What’s the club soccer landscape like in Washington, Oregon, or Vancouver, CA?


Club is big time.  The kids play at Five Points.  Lot's of kids play soccer in the Northwest.  Hope ring a bell?  Crossfire?


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## watfly (Dec 16, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Apparently CIF was pushing for all team sports to be in the red zone.  The state said no.  Editorial here: it looks like one of the ways it worked out for soccer (and water polo) is the were sacrificial lambs in the attempt to save football.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339248192991346695


If that is the case, then as many of us thought, CIF/HS Sports was the driving influence for all of youth sports regardless of age.  I wonder what kind of representation youth soccer had in these sport "negotiations".  Did youth soccer just get steamrolled because CIF has more power or did youth soccer get steamrolled because they had poor representation? Combo of both probably.  At the end of the day I'm not sure it matters, just curious I guess.


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## Kante (Dec 16, 2020)

dad4 said:


> There are only three categories.  Yes, the highest contact sport in each category will be higher risk than the lowest contact sport in each category.
> 
> Did you want them to wait another 3 months to get exact scientific evidence on every sport known to man, or did you want them to publish a decent set of rules so we knew what to plan for?
> 
> We wanted them to do something kind of like Washington. They did.  Why are we complaining about it?





MacDre said:


> IDK, but I’d guess that soccer is low to moderate risk in Washington because not many folks are interested in soccer up there, especially in the winter.


(MacDre, Love you man. Point being, this note is for clarification, not admonishment. And much of it is also for the hoi polloi...)

Washington came out with guidelines back in September and then revised on 11/16. Oregon did the same and then revised the their guidelines on 12/3. The National Federation of High School's Sports Medicine Advisory Committee came out with their guidelines back in May.

In all the guidelines mentioned above (links to docs are below), soccer is listed as low to medium risk sport similar to baseball, women's lacrosse etc. And this seems to be the general standard for states ranging form Massachusetts to Texas. California's guidance is the outlier.

(Washington and Oregon are important because Newsom joined the governors from those two states back in April to "collectively identify clear “indicators for communities to restart public life and business.” 

Said the LA Times at the time, "The governors broadly described a few basic principles they agreed to follow as they develop strategies to return some level of normalcy to their states. The governors said they will be guided by data, prioritize health over politics and work together and with local communities.")

As you know, with this low to medium risk classification, inter-team youth soccer games - with caveats - would be allowed in CA counties if said counties were in the Red zone. 

Right now, as a "high risk" sport similar, according to the Gov and his guys, to rugby and football, soccer will only be allowed when a county gets to Orange. 

Based on previous Covid data, the difference btw Red and Orange level sports restarting is likely months, not days or weeks, which boils down to basically a determination that some Orange level sports are very unlikely to have any season before the end of the school year.

Per a number of anecdotal reports on this forum and elsewhere, it also sounds like the pre-12/14 CA guidance, that was largely complete back in September, originally also classified soccer as a low to medium risk sport.

Would assume that, with the flack/narrative Newsom was getting for being a "do as I say, not as I do" governor, politics - not data or health - drove the decision to move, late in the game, soccer from the low to medium risk tier to high risk. 

(it came to light in early December that one of Newsom's kids reportedly plays on a norcal club soccer team that reportedly went to the Thanksgiving tournament in Phoenix that got called out by CNN and other major media outlets)

People have talked about a soccer lobby. 

Based on the results we're seeing, we don't have a soccer lobby. 

Alas, despite literally millions of CA kids playing organized soccer. For example, in our area, doing the math, it's close to 1 in 4 kids playing soccer. As former political consultant in another life, am appalled by the lack of a soccer community voice in the CA youth sports guideline decision making.

per the data and the science, moving soccer to a red level, low to medium risk categorization from the current orange level, high risk categorization is the right thing to do. 

And re-categorizing soccer would have a tangible benefit to our kids, getting back to normalcy faster for a broad spectrum of family income levels

And having an accessible goal/light at the end of the tunnel for soccer would likely lead to less pressure travel, thus would have significant health benefits.

Here's the link to the most recent (11/16) WA guidelines: https://www.governor.wa.gov/sites/default/files/COVID19 Phase 2 and 3 Sporting Activities Guidance.pdf

Here's the link to the most recent (12/3) OR guidelines:
https://www.osaa.org/docs/osaainfo/Outdoor Recreation Guidance.pdf

Here's the link to the NFHS Sports Medicine guidelines: 
https://nfhs.org/media/3812287/2020-nfhs-guidance-for-opening-up-high-school-athletics-and-activities-nfhs-smac-may-15_2020-final.pdf


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## dad4 (Dec 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> (MacDre, Love you man. Point being, this note is for clarification, not admonishment. And much of it is also for the hoi polloi...)
> 
> Washington came out with guidelines back in September and then revised on 11/16. Oregon did the same and then revised the their guidelines on 12/3. The National Federation of High School's Sports Medicine Advisory Committee came out with their guidelines back in May.
> 
> ...


Agree that outdoor non contact field sports should be in red.  But I don’t see it as months.

By late Feb, CA will have confirmed infections of 6% or so.  Maybe 50% overall will have had it.  In addition, the vaccine will be out to another 15-20%.   If we stay cautious, case numbers in March ought to be dropping by 20% per week.  If so, that makes the difference between red and orange more like 3 weeks.

I’m more worried that we will get excited as soon as we hit red, open up, and knock ourselves back into purple.


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## lafalafa (Dec 16, 2020)

watfly said:


> If that is the case, then as many of us thought, CIF/HS Sports was the driving influence for all of youth sports regardless of age.  I wonder what kind of representation youth soccer had in these sport "negotiations".  Did youth soccer just get steamrolled because CIF has more power or did youth soccer get steamrolled because they had poor representation? Combo of both probably.  At the end of the day I'm not sure it matters, just curious I guess.


CIF has been engaged with the state health department for some time and having been giving regular updates.  There the only ones who have done that although others have said they where "in contact"  but they didn't communicate what exactly there where doing of did.

Grace's take on the red zone suggestions has some truth to it.   The heath dept Nov draft that was very close to be released with different and soccer was actually medium risk in red with baseball.  Somethings changed after the restrictions where tighten before this Dec release.

Football was always classified as a higher risk and CIF took a risk to go with red class buts it's there big money maker so maybe they thought let go with that from a negotiation point of view.

Let's hope the Jan updates and additional lobbying gets soccer classified correctly as a medium risk sports like baseball and into the red tier.   Orange is going to be very difficult to get to in Socal in time for HS sports.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 16, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Agree that outdoor non contact field sports should be in red.  But I don’t see it as months.
> 
> By late Feb, CA will have confirmed infections of 6% or so.  Maybe 50% overall will have had it.  In addition, the vaccine will be out to another 15-20%.   If we stay cautious, case numbers in March ought to be dropping by 20% per week.  If so, that makes the difference between red and orange more like 3 weeks.
> 
> I’m more worried that we will get excited as soon as we hit red, open up, and knock ourselves back into purple.


I saw a report that the midwest is beginning to see a drop in covid cases.  Im wondering if there's any correlation trends on how long it took them to peak (again) and down to a decline.


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## watfly (Dec 16, 2020)

Kante said:


> (MacDre, Love you man. Point being, this note is for clarification, not admonishment. And much of it is also for the hoi polloi...)
> 
> Washington came out with guidelines back in September and then revised on 11/16. Oregon did the same and then revised the their guidelines on 12/3. The National Federation of High School's Sports Medicine Advisory Committee came out with their guidelines back in May.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.  While I like to blame Newsom for everything, in this case the apparent lack of a soccer lobby deserves a big share of the blame.  It doesn't appear that youth soccer was ever the "squeaky wheel".

Why don't we have a stronger soccer lobby?  Are the various soccer organizations too busy fighting and competing with each other to come together and represent the best interests of the sport?  A year ago I wouldn't have thought that the SoCal soccer landscape could have become any more disjointed.  You could argue that it has become 2x as disjointed.  Call me naive but I would have expected a consolidation due to Covid and not an expansion of competing acronyms.  You have to wonder what the overall mission statement is for soccer in SoCal.  Fortunately, our individual goal for soccer is not dependent on a acronym.


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## Grace T. (Dec 16, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I saw a report that the midwest is beginning to see a drop in covid cases.  Im wondering if there's any correlation trends on how long it took them to peak (again) and down to a decline.


As it's not soccer related, see graphs I posted in the off topic/bad news thread.


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## notintheface (Dec 16, 2020)

watfly said:


> You could argue that it has become 2x as disjointed.


But...  but...  but your player card is $2 cheaper!!!?!?!!


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## watfly (Dec 16, 2020)

notintheface said:


> But...  but...  but your player card is $2 cheaper!!!?!?!!


My daughter is a dancer, so soccer fees seem like a blue-light special.


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## socalkdg (Dec 18, 2020)

watfly said:


> My daughter is a dancer, so soccer fees seem like a blue-light special.


We were paying about $900 a month adding in competitions, recitals, costumes, traveling, privates.   Crazy.   We knew at the time that she wouldn't be dancing beyond High School.


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## Grace T. (Dec 18, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> We were paying about $900 a month adding in competitions, recitals, costumes, traveling, privates.   Crazy.   We knew at the time that she wouldn't be dancing beyond High School.


You guys should just be grateful they aren't into equestrian, like I was when I was growing up.  That's where you shed out the real big bucks.  The only upside financial benefit was you could get a horse scholarship to some college in Wyoming or North Dakota, or maybe date a royal.


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## watfly (Dec 18, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> We were paying about $900 a month adding in competitions, recitals, costumes, traveling, privates.   Crazy.   We knew at the time that she wouldn't be dancing beyond High School.


Yeah, but they love it.  Hard to say no.  My daughter has a year and half to go but she wants to continue with competitive dance in college.  She's attending a dance combine in Nashville in the spring, pretty much has to attend to make a top dance team.


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## watfly (Dec 18, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You guys should just be grateful they aren't into equestrian, like I was when I was growing up.  That's where you shed out the real big bucks.  The only upside financial benefit was you could get a horse scholarship to some college in Wyoming or North Dakota, or maybe date a royal.


The cost to own or lease a warm blood will put you in the poor house.


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## crush (Dec 18, 2020)

watfly said:


> One of my best friends dd got full ride to Biola U in Dance.  They have home schooled all three kids since birth.  One boy is a Fr at Mt Sac and it's all free.  The other is Sr in HS and is already going to be a Sophomore in college next year.  I asked the dad, who teachers in public education, why he didnt put his kids in free public school like all the others.  He said, "are you insane????  I see and hear the truth and I would never let my kids learn this stuff."  He only does it because it's a job for life and he only has 7 years left before he retires.  What a messy mess all this is Wat Fly.  BTW, you never answered my Q if you were hiring for a sales person.  Well?????  Or just not me you wouldnt take a chance on?  I can take it either way.  The more no's one gets, the more a yes is around the corner.  If your not getting told no all day, then your not salesman.  If everyone say's "yes" then your a farmer taking orders.  I hunt for my game!!!  When my dd was snubbed by the Doc with all the power in 2017, he told me to STFU and GTFO!!!  So I told him I would see him over at the forum for a duke it out match.  Round 15 is soon to come.  I like to take jabs on this dude because he knocked my ass out in 2016 with all his lies and deceptions.  I told him as I was picking up my teeth from the ground, "Just wait buddy."


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## crush (Dec 18, 2020)

watfly said:


> Yeah, but they love it.  Hard to say no.  My daughter has a year and half to go but she wants to continue with competitive dance in college.  She's attending a dance combine in Nashville in the spring, pretty much has to attend to make a top dance team.


One of my best friends dd got full ride to Biola U in Dance.  They have home schooled all three kids since birth.  One boy is a Fr at Mt Sac and it's all free.  The other is Sr in HS and is already going to be a Sophomore in college next year.  I asked the dad, who teachers in public education, why he didnt put his kids in free public school like all the others.  He said, "are you insane????!!!!  I see and hear the truth and I would never let my kids learn this stuff."  He only does it because it's a job for life and he only has 7 years left before he retires.  What a messy mess all this is Wat Fly.  BTW, you never answered my Q if you were hiring for a sales person.  Well?????  Or just not me you wouldnt take a chance on?  I can take it either way.  The more no's one gets, the more a yes is around the corner.  If your not getting told no all day, then your not salesman.  If everyone say's "yes" all the time you call on them, then your a farmer taking orders.  I hunt for my game!!!  When my dd was snubbed by the Doc with all the power in 2017, he told me to STFU and GTFO!!!  So I told him I would see him over at the forum for a duke it out match.  Round 15 is soon to come.  I like to take jabs on this dude because he knocked my ass out in 2016 with all his lies and deceptions.  I told him as I was picking up my teeth from the ground, "Just wait buddy."


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 18, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I saw a report that the midwest is beginning to see a drop in covid cases.  Im wondering if there's any correlation trends on how long it took them to peak (again) and down to a decline.


SD, NE, MT, WY, MN, IA, ND - about 2-5 weeks to go from peak to 1/2 of peak in cases with 4 weeks at about the median. The peak may be flatter in CA lasting longer due to the size of the state if different regions peak at different times. Based on the steepness of the current rise, I am definitely hoping for a sharp drop off after the peak. I'd guess it will drop off quickly based on how it's rising, but I tend to be overly optimistic.









						Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count
					

A detailed county map shows the extent of the coronavirus outbreak, with tables of the number of cases by county.



					www.nytimes.com


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## dad4 (Dec 18, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> SD, NE, MT, WY, MN, IA, ND - about 2-5 weeks to go from peak to 1/2 of peak in cases with 4 weeks at about the median. The peak may be flatter in CA lasting longer due to the size of the state if different regions peak at different times. Based on the steepness of the current rise, I am definitely hoping for a sharp drop off after the peak. I'd guess it will drop off quickly based on how it's rising, but I tend to be overly optimistic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we'll see a sharp drop off, but not because I am optimistic.

Thanksgiving gave us a tripling of cases.  If Christmas gives us another tripling of cases, 3-4 weeks at that level will put us in Dakota territory - no one left to infect.  Cases fall quickly after that.


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## timbuck (Dec 18, 2020)

watfly said:


> Excellent post.  While I like to blame Newsom for everything, in this case the apparent lack of a soccer lobby deserves a big share of the blame.  It doesn't appear that youth soccer was ever the "squeaky wheel".
> 
> Why don't we have a stronger soccer lobby?  Are the various soccer organizations too busy fighting and competing with each other to come together and represent the best interests of the sport?  A year ago I wouldn't have thought that the SoCal soccer landscape could have become any more disjointed.  You could argue that it has become 2x as disjointed.  Call me naive but I would have expected a consolidation due to Covid and not an expansion of competing acronyms.  You have to wonder what the overall mission statement is for soccer in SoCal.  Fortunately, our individual goal for soccer is not dependent on a acronym.


I think we'll see the real consolidation a year from now.  Clubs cobbling together teams this year will have players leaving next year.  Parents who got charged nearly full price for a season of practices will be looking for new options (newsflash -  Most clubs did this.  If you find one that did the whole year for free- They might not be around (financially) for very long.  Clubs who had coaches leave because of pay cuts being asked to drive to oceanside for undercover scrimmages - those parents will be looking around too.
Or players will say "I didn't really like soccer that much.  I enjoyed having every saturday to go to the beach with my friends"


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 18, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I think we'll see a sharp drop off, but not because I am optimistic.
> 
> Thanksgiving gave us a tripling of cases.  If Christmas gives us another tripling of cases, 3-4 weeks at that level will put us in Dakota territory - no one left to infect.  Cases fall quickly after that.


My concerns are that we are overestimating cases/infections and that NorCal still has a ways to go to hit the top.

When you say "another tripling of infections" are you talking about from current levels? If CA keeps going up at our current rate for another 3-4 weeks we won't need to worry about a vaccine.


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## notintheface (Dec 18, 2020)

timbuck said:


> I think we'll see the real consolidation a year from now.  Clubs cobbling together teams this year will have players leaving next year.


Having spoken with associates, we're already there. This is not meant to be a political post so please don't jump on it but if you assume that Biden is serious about getting kids back to school within 100 days from Jan 20th, that's mid-May when you would expect a good chunk of school districts to reopen their facilities for clubs to do serious work on. Can we get there? I don't know but I sure hope so. The traditional tryout season for youngers would be starting in anger right about now and in talking with others I get the sense that a lot of it is still up in the air. Those clubs who do the early tryouts haven't posted their schedules afaik.

imo the traditional dropoff of 13-14-15 is going to be _very_ pronounced this year and I do think we'll also see a good chunk of 8-9-10 deciding it isn't their thing anymore either. Everyone who I have talked to are preparing for the overall ecosystem to be cut in _half_. That really woke me up. We will take a look at '13 registration levels to see if the overall pipeline has been affected but everyone is saying that it will be by a huge amount, as the disposable incomes aren't there or are being diverted to other things.


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## dad4 (Dec 18, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> My concerns are that we are overestimating cases/infections and that NorCal still has a ways to go to hit the top.
> 
> When you say "another tripling of infections" are you talking about from current levels? If CA keeps going up at our current rate for another 3-4 weeks we won't need to worry about a vaccine.


Look at what happened over thanksgiving.  How many people did each person infect?

Yes, I think we will see a doubling or tripling from current levels.  Especially NorCal, because of the lack of past cases.

I would love to be wrong about it.


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## watfly (Dec 18, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Those clubs who do the early tryouts haven't posted their schedules afaik.


Some SD clubs have posted ID camps for this month.


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 18, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Look at what happened over thanksgiving.  How many people did each person infect?
> 
> Yes, I think we will see a doubling or tripling from current levels.  Especially NorCal, because of the lack of past cases.
> 
> I would love to be wrong about it.


@Grace showed something on the Good News thread that indicates LA might be near the peak.

The highest "2nd wave compared to the 1st wave" from other states with a significant 1st wave was IL with a 2nd wave peak that was about 4x the first wave peak. In CA, we are currently about 4x the first wave July peak. Doubling from here would make that 8x, tripling would be 12x.


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## NorCalDad (Dec 18, 2020)

notintheface said:


> imo the traditional dropoff of 13-14-15 is going to be _very_ pronounced this year and I do think we'll also see a good chunk of 8-9-10 deciding it isn't their thing anymore either. Everyone who I have talked to are preparing for the overall ecosystem to be cut in _half_. That really woke me up. We will take a look at '13 registration levels to see if the overall pipeline has been affected but everyone is saying that it will be by a huge amount, as the disposable incomes aren't there or are being diverted to other things.


Do you think there will be any positive impact due to the proliferation USMNT/USWNT players in Europe?  It's like how every kid in NorCal got into baseball when the SF Giants were hot.  Or the Lance Armstrong effect on cycling in the US.


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## notintheface (Dec 18, 2020)

NorCalDad said:


> Do you think there will be any positive impact due to the proliferation USMNT/USWNT players in Europe?  It's like how every kid in NorCal got into baseball when the SF Giants were hot.  Or the Lance Armstrong effect on cycling in the US.


That's a great question. I'm sure there will be some, but moreso because young parents get to see McKennie hit the wonderstrike and get their 5-year-old kicking the ball around for fun. The overall pipeline for soccer is different than other sports, as you know. It's relatively rare -- not impossible, just relatively rare -- for a kid to just straight up start playing at 14. And also presumably if you're out there in 1st grade wearing a Ronaldo jersey, you're already playing in your local AYSO team or whatever.

On the girls side I think the US is approaching a ceiling in growth. You will continue to see those types of adorable photos like Sophia Smith as a little kid with Wambach and hopefully we will see more diversity in the pipeline as Crystal Dunn and Midge Purce influence the next generation, but realistically how many more kids are you going to get, they just walked to a World Cup victory what seems like forever ago.


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## NorCalDad (Dec 18, 2020)

notintheface said:


> That's a great question. I'm sure there will be some, but moreso because young parents get to see McKennie hit the wonderstrike and get their 5-year-old kicking the ball around for fun. The overall pipeline for soccer is different than other sports, as you know. It's relatively rare -- not impossible, just relatively rare -- for a kid to just straight up start playing at 14. And also presumably if you're out there in 1st grade wearing a Ronaldo jersey, you're already playing in your local AYSO team or whatever.
> 
> On the girls side I think the US is approaching a ceiling in growth. You will continue to see those types of adorable photos like Sophia Smith as a little kid with Wambach and hopefully we will see more diversity in the pipeline as Crystal Dunn and Midge Purce influence the next generation, but realistically how many more kids are you going to get, they just walked to a World Cup victory what seems like forever ago.


Yeah I have no idea. It's interesting though, I see Pulisic and Morgan jerseys all over the place where we live. Pre-pandemic our kids would play soccer at recess/lunch. I'm hopeful this is the turning point for US Soccer. 

I'm also hoping Santa brings me a Juve McKennie jersey for Xmas.


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## Grace T. (Dec 18, 2020)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah I have no idea. It's interesting though, I see Pulisic and Morgan jerseys all over the place where we live. Pre-pandemic our kids would play soccer at recess/lunch. I'm hopeful this is the turning point for US Soccer.
> 
> I'm also hoping Santa brings me a Juve McKennie jersey for Xmas.


The problem for soccer in the US with the boys is that basketball and baseball (even though baseball may be in decline) are bigger draws.  And in the red states, football is much more woven into the culture.  The boys will want to play what their friends play and as you guys say (unlike Lacrosse and water polo) you have to get them when they are little.  Add the influence dads wield to steer them into baseball or football that further reduces the player pool...soccer may have gotten a bit of a bump in the coastal areas due to the concerns with football.


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## NorCalDad (Dec 18, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The problem for soccer in the US with the boys is that basketball and baseball (even though baseball may be in decline) are bigger draws.  And in the red states, football is much more woven into the culture.  The boys will want to play what their friends play and as you guys say (unlike Lacrosse and water polo) you have to get them when they are little.  Add the influence dads wield to steer them into baseball or football that further reduces the player pool...soccer may have gotten a bit of a bump in the coastal areas due to the concerns with football.


For sure, what you say resonates with me. In our county, though, American football is absolutely on the decline.  I think there is only one or two pop warner teams.  This has everything to do with CTE.  Soccer has a pretty big following here, but so does basketball (Go dubs!).  I think there are some pretty good odds that an American player will make it to the champions league final.  I'm absolutely dumbfounded with how many US players play in Europe these days.  Love or hate Lance Armstrong, cycling in the US is big in a large part because of him.


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## Messi>CR7 (Dec 18, 2020)

NorCalDad said:


> Do you think there will be any positive impact due to the proliferation USMNT/USWNT players in Europe?  It's like how every kid in NorCal got into baseball when the SF Giants were hot.  Or the Lance Armstrong effect on cycling in the US.


I think the impact is somewhat limited until one of them (preferably an attacking player) turns into a true world-class, UEFA's best XI level star.  I watch all of Barca's matches, and I never know when Dest would get to start.  It's hard for an average fan to turn into a fanatic if there is no continuity.  I thought Pulisic at the end of last year was on his way, but injuries continue to hold him back.

The best example I can think of is Heung-Min Son.  Outside of the countries with their own top pro leagues, one can safely assume ManU, Barca, or Real are the most popular clubs.  But Spurs are now easily the most popular club in Korea and Son's cultural influence is visibly everywhere.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 19, 2020)

Messi>CR7 said:


> I think the impact is somewhat limited until one of them (preferably an attacking player) turns into a true world-class, UEFA's best XI level star.  I watch all of Barca's matches, and I never know when Dest would get to start.  It's hard for an average fan to turn into a fanatic if there is no continuity.  I thought Pulisic at the end of last year was on his way, but injuries continue to hold him back.
> 
> The best example I can think of is Heung-Min Son.  Outside of the countries with their own top pro leagues, one can safely assume ManU, Barca, or Real are the most popular clubs.  But Spurs are now easily the most popular club in Korea and Son's cultural influence is visibly everywhere.


I think we are making progress but it’s still a good 10 years away.   It’s so cool to see more than 1 American player (and starting) on TV  playing European soccer with top teams.    

The quality of MLS teams is improving and this can help as well.  I seldom  watch an mls game but I found myself surprised the other day to see LAFC take it to Cruz Azul on TV.   We are beginning to see an evolution of MLS teams with a pipeline of youth players from local academies and South American teams.


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I think we are making progress but it’s still a good 10 years away.   It’s so cool to see more than 1 American player (and starting) on TV  playing European soccer with top teams.
> 
> The quality of MLS teams is improving and this can help as well.  I seldom  watch an mls game but I found myself surprised the other day to see LAFC take it to Cruz Azul on TV.   We are beginning to see an evolution of MLS teams with a pipeline of youth players from local academies and South American teams.


Agree about the time frame. The quality of mls teams though is actually being diluted. Because Of the shared employment system and because of the salary caps it’s really hard to put together a quality team that can dominate like a Real Madrid or a Bayern.  Just look at the struggle of the Galaxy to put together a quality team despite having Zlatan and Zlatans impact in Italy.  Add to that the mls expansion and the dollars and the player pool gets further diluted.  It creates 3 weird conditions you see in the mls you don’t usually see in leagues elsewhere that has perpetual superpowers: 1. Coaching and how a team fits and works together actually makes a difference, 2. New expansion teams have an advantage in getting out of gates but begin to fade after time, and 3. Goalkeepers are not enough (see Howard) but you need a really good one to be in contention (see the Galaxy and the Quakes struggled) since a goalkeeper that struggles in an aspect of the game can really break a team.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> @Grace showed something on the Good News thread that indicates LA might be near the peak.
> 
> The highest "2nd wave compared to the 1st wave" from other states with a significant 1st wave was IL with a 2nd wave peak that was about 4x the first wave peak. In CA, we are currently about 4x the first wave July peak. Doubling from here would make that 8x, tripling would be 12x.


Sounds like Mavericks is going off with that huge huge triple wave.


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2020)

For second weekend in a row 2 different parks have tiny tots soccer going on.  These are those companies that run group training for the littlest ones. Different parks in vc and la. Am wondering how (if) they are getting permits.  Not just toddlers either but the younger ayso ages too. Parents are on the sidelines mingling and egging them on so that’s likely an issue. They don’t usually get too many ayso level kids but this class is full probably because ayso is down. Full contact so not following the day camp rules. Not passing a judgment either way (other than it’s probably a bad idea for the parents to congregate). Most kids playing with masks


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## jimlewis (Dec 19, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> For second weekend in a row 2 different parks have tiny tots soccer going on.  These are those companies that run group training for the littlest ones. Different parks in vc and la. Am wondering how (if) they are getting permits.  Not just toddlers either but the younger ayso ages too. Parents are on the sidelines mingling and egging them on so that’s likely an issue. They don’t usually get too many ayso level kids but this class is full probably because ayso is down. Full contact so not following the day camp rules. Not passing a judgment either way (other than it’s probably a bad idea for the parents to congregate). Most kids playing with masks


cool story Grace


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## crush (Dec 19, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> For second weekend in a row 2 different parks have tiny tots soccer going on.  These are those companies that run group training for the littlest ones. Different parks in vc and la. Am wondering how (if) they are getting permits.  Not just toddlers either but the younger ayso ages too. Parents are on the sidelines mingling and egging them on so that’s likely an issue. They don’t usually get too many ayso level kids but this class is full probably because ayso is down. Full contact so not following the day camp rules. Not passing a judgment either way (other than it’s probably a bad idea for the parents to congregate). Most kids playing with masks


I just back from a walk in the park and I saw a little USL game going as well Grace and it was fun for the kiddos.  Laughing, running and getting exercise.  The weather in socal is amazing today.  The ocean had gold diamonds on it today   I talked to a dad with a mask on and he said he loves helping out for one hour while the moms go and take a break.  Super cool dad who has taken it upon himself to make soccer happen for free!!!!


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## oh canada (Dec 19, 2020)

Anecdotally of course, but the school playgrounds I see are not filled with soccer jerseys any more, past couple years.  About 5+ years ago, they reached their peak -- while Messi, Ronaldo and others were at the peak of their careers--seemed like every kid was wearing Man U, City, Liverpool, Barca, Real, Juve etc. jerseys -- and the girls wearing US players as well.  Not any more.

I see more pro baseball, football and basketball shirts and jerseys again.  And honestly, from what I overhear, the interest in watching live sports is dwindling thanks to YouTube, Tiktok, IG, Snap et al.  I think viewing habits are permanently changing and most (not all) kids would rather scroll through TikTok videos and Twitter highlights from a game for an hour vs. watch the actual second half of an EPL game.  World Cup and Olympics likely change the dynamic, but for the other 47 months, change is a comin'.

MLS season, WWC and Men's World Cup ratings all bear this out too -- all down 15+%


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## crush (Dec 19, 2020)

oh canada said:


> Anecdotally of course, but the school playgrounds I see are not filled with soccer jerseys any more, past couple years.  About 5+ years ago, they reached their peak -- while Messi, Ronaldo and others were at the peak of their careers--seemed like every kid was wearing Man U, City, Liverpool, Barca, Real, Juve etc. jerseys -- and the girls wearing US players as well.  Not any more.
> 
> I see more pro baseball, football and basketball shirts and jerseys again.  And honestly, from what I overhear, the interest in watching live sports is dwindling thanks to YouTube, Tiktok, IG, Snap et al.  I think viewing habits are permanently changing and most (not all) kids would rather scroll through TikTok videos and Twitter highlights from a game for an hour vs. watch the actual second half of an EPL game.  World Cup and Olympics likely change the dynamic, but for the other 47 months, change is a comin'.
> 
> MLS season, WWC and Men's World Cup ratings all bear this out too -- all down 15+%


My kids never watch sports now.  I was on espnnews.com last night and the NBA is doing exhibition games already.  What is up with that?  LeBron is going to be helping us out with China and that gnarly relationship we got.  King James baby!!!  My Steelers wont win it all because Big Ben is too old and we missed on Josh Allen.


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## socalkdg (Dec 24, 2020)

So my older daughters old dance studio had 50 girls in 30 x 50 room perform a  dance that I just saw the video on.  No masks.   They are 3-4 feet from each other for 2-3 minutes performing, much longer when they learned the routine.   How anyone could think that is equal to soccer outdoors has lost their mind.  50 girls, no masks.  Crazy.


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## kickingandscreaming (Dec 24, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> So my older daughters old dance studio had 50 girls in 30 x 50 room perform a  dance that I just saw the video on.  No masks.   They are 3-4 feet from each other for 2-3 minutes performing, much longer when they learned the routine.   How anyone could think that is equal to soccer outdoors has lost their mind.  50 girls, no masks.  Crazy.


I'm pretty sure "think" is where it all falls apart.


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## Bruddah IZ (Dec 26, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I saw a report that the midwest is beginning to see a drop in covid cases.  Im wondering if there's any correlation trends on how long it took them to peak (again) and down to a decline.


Remember how awful Thanksgiving was supposed to be?

Well, here's what happened in the Midwest:


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