# State Cup



## samsung1 (Apr 7, 2018)

EDITED BY DOMINIC PER THE OP REQUEST.


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## SBFDad (Apr 7, 2018)

Yellow to #15 for simulation.


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## Mackerel Sam (Apr 7, 2018)

Everytime I see something like this, I get reminded of this:


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## timbuck (Apr 7, 2018)

samsung1 said:


> View attachment 2324 View attachment 2325 View attachment 2326 View attachment 2327


Was there a cattle roping contest going on during halftime?  Get that girl a cowboy hat and some boots!!!


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## Monkey (Apr 8, 2018)

What is the point of posting pictures of a minor when emotions appear to have gotten the best of her?

Are you hoping to bring it to her attention, her parents or the coach's attention, CalSouth or the refs?

I don't even know if it is legal to post something like this about a minor.


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## coachrefparent (Apr 8, 2018)

Monkey said:


> What is the point of posting pictures of a minor when emotions appear to have gotten the best of her?
> 
> Are you hoping to bring it to her attention, her parents or the coach's attention, CalSouth or the refs?
> 
> I don't even know if it is legal to post something like this about a minor.


How does it appear that way? I have no idea from looking at these pictures, but could also be an attempt to injure. The only emotion I "see" is aggression and thuggery.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 8, 2018)

Just got back from watching boys 03s playing and probably saw this more than a few times in one day. 

Definitely something that should be sent to the coach or league disciplinary team.    

To post it on this site is not cool.  This site should be about parents bringing soccer topics. It shouldn't be to bash kids on a public forum.


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## ajaffe (Apr 8, 2018)

Monkey said:


> What is the point of posting pictures of a minor when emotions appear to have gotten the best of her?
> 
> Are you hoping to bring it to her attention, her parents or the coach's attention, CalSouth or the refs?
> 
> I don't even know if it is legal to post something like this about a minor.


Legal yes. There is no expectation of privacy in public areas.

But personally I'd probably throw a blur on the face just because who the player is really isn't the point of a thread like this.


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## timbuck (Apr 8, 2018)

If it was video of the full game would it still be wrong to post it?


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## Monkey (Apr 9, 2018)

ajaffe said:


> Legal yes. There is no expectation of privacy in public areas.
> 
> But personally I'd probably throw a blur on the face just because who the player is really isn't the point of a thread like this.


I am not so sure it is legal.  There is no expectation of privacy in a public place for adults. I agree. But I believe the rules for minors is a little different.  Moreover, during a soccer game the field is controlled by CalSouth.  So I am not sure if it would be considered a public place?  There is some reason we sign this's release forms. Obviously most people are not going to have an issue with people films games and taking pictures because what is the harm?  But in this case there is clearly harm for its use.

And btw a school yard is not a public place, I know that one for a fact.  Does anyone truly know the rule?  I would love to know it.


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## 46n2 (Apr 9, 2018)

no point in this picture......Id prefer video over a static image too many variables.
would be better to know what lead up to these pictures....
theres a hundred different things that can be going on in this picture...
*What if #15 had been coming in hot all game, fouling and just playing poorly and #10 finally had her number and moved out of the way last minute and #15 momentum cause her to fall.*
If soccer is too rough for you , go play baseball.
And too who ever made that bad comment earlier calling the girl a name, your a idiot , and always will be with that attitude...


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## futboldad1 (Apr 9, 2018)

I don't agree with photos showing kids in a negative light, not least because photos during live sports games rarely tell even 10 percent of the story...I'd remove the pics but that's the parent in me looking out for other DDs like I'd hope most of us do...


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## Surfref (Apr 9, 2018)

Did the referee crew at least make the call and issue a card?


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## Mackerel Sam (Apr 9, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Did the referee crew at least make the call and issue a card?


Without any actual knowledge of the situation, I  would  guess that they did make a call. I believe that if there had been no call, the initial poster would have taken great care to indignantly point that out.


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## samsung1 (Apr 9, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Did the referee crew at least make the call and issue a card?


No call or warning. Since it seems this was just emotion can we have this thread deleted?


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## El Clasico (Apr 9, 2018)

samsung1 said:


> No call or warning. Since it seems this was just emotion can we have this thread deleted?


Speaking of cards...you have just surrendered your man card!


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## Sheriff Joe (Apr 10, 2018)

46n2 said:


> no point in this picture......Id prefer video over a static image too many variables.
> would be better to know what lead up to these pictures....
> theres a hundred different things that can be going on in this picture...
> *What if #15 had been coming in hot all game, fouling and just playing poorly and #10 finally had her number and moved out of the way last minute and #15 momentum cause her to fall.*
> ...


Why would anyone take the other side on this story when we have pictures to support it? I bet if it was your player or a teammate of your kid you might change your mind.
You're AN idiot for making up excuses for this thug.


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## jose (Apr 10, 2018)

did the ref call it a foul?  no? then it wasn't a foul. PLAY ON


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## Monkey (Apr 10, 2018)

samsung1 said:


> No call or warning. Since it seems this was just emotion can we have this thread deleted?





Sheriff Joe said:


> Why would anyone take the other side on this story when we have pictures to support it? I bet if it was your player or a teammate of your kid you might change your mind.
> You're AN idiot for making up excuses for this thug.


We don't know what transpired immediately before these pictures.  What if  #15 spit in #10s face?  I would not justify the behavior but could understand her emotions getting the best of her.


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## Sheriff Joe (Apr 10, 2018)

Monkey said:


> We don't know what transpired immediately before these pictures.  What if  #15 spit in #10s face?  I would not justify the behavior but could understand her emotions getting the best of her.


I totally agree with you.
The only fact we have right now is the pics.
We really shouldn't live in "what if" ville though.
Little thugs grow up to be big thugs.


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## Surfref (Apr 10, 2018)

samsung1 said:


> No call or warning.


I can understand no call if none of the referee saw the foul, but if they saw it and didn't call it then there was a problem with the referee crew.  Players will usually take care of these types of non-calls on their own by retaliating later in the game with a cleat down the calf/Achilles or elbow to the jaw.  High school age girls are vicious.  These types of game critical fouls can change the whole tempo of the game and change a smooth clean game into an out of control brawl.  Referee crews must be paying attention and get these calls correct.  

I have no problem with showing the pictures of the dirty play.  I have seen many photos and videos on this site showing both clean and nasty fouls.  If that was my DD in the red jersey, I would be chewing her out for the dirty play.


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## OrangeCountyDad (Apr 10, 2018)

i walked around quite a bit and watched tidbits of boys and girls up in the far off land of Lancaster.

I saw stuff like this on almost every field, boys and girls.  


Also saw way more yellow cards to coaches than I have in the last ~6 years.


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## watfly (Apr 10, 2018)

Monkey said:


> What is the point of posting pictures of a minor when emotions appear to have gotten the best of her?
> 
> Are you hoping to bring it to her attention, her parents or the coach's attention, CalSouth or the refs?
> 
> I don't even know if it is legal to post something like this about a minor.


I'm with you on this, I think its pathetic that an adult would post pictures, or support posting pictures, of a minor in an attempt to publicly shame a child.  If you have a problem with it take it to the appropriate association.  Yeah, they might not do something about it but, that doesn't make it OK to dish out internet vigilante justice on a minor.

Was it a foul deserving of a card, absolutely.  However, we don't know the context.  I've seen normally mellow kids lose their temper and do something stupid on the pitch after getting continually hacked during the game.  We've all done things we regret and how would we like it to be posted on a public forum? We don't earn the designation "Deputy of Fair Play" just because we're a member on this forum.

If you can't get over the kids rough play, then act like an adult and have the balls to show those pictures directly to the parent.


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## Sheriff Joe (Apr 10, 2018)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> i walked around quite a bit and watched tidbits of boys and girls up in the far off land of Lancaster.
> 
> I saw stuff like this on almost every field, boys and girls.


Bullshit,   4 years of pretty high level club soccer  and I have seen this once or twice, almost every game?
Come on.


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## Frank (Apr 10, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Bullshit,   4 years of pretty high level club soccer  and I have seen this once or twice, almost every game?
> Come on.


It's state cup; so not high level soccer.  IMO, the lower levels are far more physical than the higher levels which are trying to play actual soccer


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## OrangeCountyDad (Apr 10, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Bullshit,   4 years of pretty high level club soccer  and I have seen this once or twice, almost every game?
> Come on.


Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I didn't see this particular mugging in every game, I saw out-of-order physical play all over the place, different fields at different times, but never constrained to just one gender or club, or one pool.


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## timbuck (Apr 10, 2018)

Maybe it wasn't an adult that took and posted the picture?
Maybe the kid doing the cattle roping was trying to get on Instagram to get a bunch of new followers?
#Worldstar!!!!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Apr 10, 2018)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I didn't see this particular mugging in every game, I saw out-of-order physical play all over the place, different fields at different times, but never constrained to just one gender or club, or one pool.


Got it, my daughter was on the receiving end of a shitty trip after she went around a defender after scoring 2 goals against the same defender earlier in the game and broke her arm.
I know it happens, but 6 weeks in a cast sure sucks.
Peace.


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## Lurker (Apr 10, 2018)

toucan said:


> Samsung just likes shaming kids.  Having a camera gives him the opportunity.  Yes, it looks like the girl is guilty of committing a hard and unnecessary foul.  But she is a kid.  She was presumably called for a foul, and that should be the end of it.  Keep these things on the field.  Samsung is a grown-up.  Samsung wants to stigmatize a girl, and that should never be allowed.  A kid committing a foul should told, taught and forgiven.  A grown-up who puts it online for the purpose of forever shaming the kid is a baby and a jackass.  He (or she) is the real thug.


She is not a “kid” she is a teenager that knows exactly what she is doing!.


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## Lurker (Apr 10, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Got it, my daughter was on the receiving end of a shitty trip after she went around a defender after scoring 2 goals against the same defender earlier in the game and broke her arm.
> I know it happens, but 6 weeks in a cast sure sucks.
> Peace.


Exact thing happened to my DD and cast for 6 weeks.


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## watfly (Apr 11, 2018)

Lurker said:


> She is not a “kid” she is a teenager that knows exactly what she is doing!.


Unfortunately, that is the same logic some unsavory adults use for other misdeeds.  I get it, your emotional because your daughter broke her arm, I'd be pissed too; however, a minor is a minor.  It's not OK for an adult to post a picture of a minor for purposes of shaming one in public regardless of the rationalization.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 11, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Bullshit,   4 years of pretty high level club soccer  and I have seen this once or twice, almost every game?
> Come on.


 I was in Lancaster, I saw the paramedics twice taking a couple of kids to the hospital.   A few teams had 3 red cards and several had 2 red cards over the weekend games.  One kid pulled back the arm of another kid until he took him down to the ground.   Maybe it was the wind but it was very physical for the 2003 boys age group in Lancaster last weekend.


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## Chalklines (Apr 11, 2018)

Soccer's physical. 
Sports are emotional. 
Players play to win.
Some teams play aggressive. 
Injuries are part of the game. 

People need to stop crying wolf because we all know exactly what we signed our kids up for.

The original poster's a complete clown for posting these pictures that explain absolutely nothing more then his daughter got throttled and he wasn't happy about it.


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## mirage (Apr 11, 2018)

Chalklines said:


> Soccer's physical.
> Sports are emotional.
> Players play to win.
> Some teams play aggressive.
> ...


Agree.  The OP's images are completely without a context and are three slices of continuing play.  We know nothing of preceding events, or where the ball is.  

Maybe OP's kid is the one throttling and not the other way around....  Or is it even OP's kid in the image?  Just saying...


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## InTheValley (Apr 11, 2018)

watfly said:


> Unfortunately, that is the same logic some unsavory adults use for other misdeeds.  I get it, your emotional because your daughter broke her arm, I'd be pissed too; however, a minor is a minor.  It's not OK for an adult to post a picture of a minor for purposes of shaming one in public regardless of the rationalization.


I don't agree with this at all.  The photos appear to identify a malicious physical attack from behind that was intended to hurt another child, and by someone who is old enough to know better.  It also seems very unlikely this was the perpetrator’s first or even second incident because people don’t typically snap perfectly framed action photos of attacks away from the action unless they expect it to happen.

If a player is a menace who risks intentionally hurting other children, I see nothing wrong in letting others should know about it.  If shaming this kid and her parents deters future similar behavior, the person who posted the photos should get a medal.  And perhaps this kid will learn that actions have consequences before she does something even more stupid that gets posted on the internet or lands her in jail. 

Who are we trying to protect? Kids who hurt other children?  Or their victims?


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## Lurker (Apr 11, 2018)

watfly said:


> Unfortunately, that is the same logic some unsavory adults use for other misdeeds.  I get it, your emotional because your daughter broke her arm, I'd be pissed too; however, a minor is a minor.  It's not OK for an adult to post a picture of a minor for purposes of shaming one in public regardless of the rationalization.


I wasn’t speaking about the posting of a picture but I was speaking to excusing the teenager because she was a “Kid”.


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## watfly (Apr 11, 2018)

Lurker said:


> I wasn’t speaking about the posting of a picture but I was speaking to excusing the teenager because she was a “Kid”.


My sincere apologies to you.  

My comment still stands for the others here that thinks its OK because they are teenagers.  I guess I wasn't aware that soccer fouling teenage girls were such a threat to humanity.


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## Chalklines (Apr 11, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> I don't agree with this at all.  The photos appear to identify a malicious physical attack from behind that was intended to hurt another child, and by someone who is old enough to know better.  It also seems very unlikely this was the perpetrator’s first or even second incident because people don’t typically snap perfectly framed action photos of attacks away from the action unless they expect it to happen.
> 
> If a player is a menace who risks intentionally hurting other children, I see nothing wrong in letting others should know about it.  If shaming this kid and her parents deters future similar behavior, the person who posted the photos should get a medal.  And perhaps this kid will learn that actions have consequences before she does something even more stupid that gets posted on the internet or lands her in jail.
> 
> Who are we trying to protect? Kids who hurt other children?  Or their victims?


Pathetic.......most pathetic post I've seen in long time. "malicious physical attack" .. Please 

It's just a game. It ends once the ref blows the whistle. 

 Nothings criminal here except the fact you drive on the same roads as I do.


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## whatever (Apr 12, 2018)

perhaps we need a new way to view games...literally: 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898814/


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## InTheValley (Apr 12, 2018)

Chalklines said:


> Pathetic.......most pathetic post I've seen in long time. "malicious physical attack" .. Please
> 
> It's just a game. It ends once the ref blows the whistle.
> 
> Nothings criminal here except the fact you drive on the same roads as I do.


Nice. A graduate of the Trump school of debate, replete with ad hominem attacks.  Because you want to go down that road, I’m not surprised that you must resort to personal attacks instead of substantive discussion - or by your opinion - since you seem to fit the Texas high school football coach stereotype perfectly.  Given your inability to grasp fundamental concepts in grammar, punctuation and spelling, I hope they didn’t let you teach while you were there.

Technically, the child’s behavior probably was a criminal battery if, as it appears, it occurred off the ball and not in self-defense.  I’m glad law enforcement has better things to do, however, especially because public shaming and hopefully a red card are likely to be sufficient. I would have thought a tough guy like you would recognize that a few pictures like these on the internet aren’t going to ruin anyone’s life.  But maybe you are one of those snowflake parents raising children to be so emotionally soft that they can’t handle it?  Like you said, it’s just a game. So why are so agitated?


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## Fact (Apr 12, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Nice. A graduate of the Trump school of debate, replete with ad hominem attacks.
> 
> Technically, the child’s behavior probably was a criminal battery if, as it appears, it occurred off the ball and not in self-defense.  I’m glad law enforcement has better things to do, however, especially because public shaming and hopefully a red card are likely to be sufficient. I would have thought a tough guy like you would recognize that a few pictures like these on the internet aren’t going to ruin anyone’s life. ?


First why does everyone has to resort to political attacks?  There is a place for that on the forum if you want to discuss political views.
Second that for the laugh, criminal battery.  That's a good one.
Finally since things on this forum will not ruin anyone's life, why don't you tell us who you are?


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## InTheValley (Apr 12, 2018)

Fact said:


> First why does everyone has to resort to political attacks?  There is a place for that on the forum if you want to discuss political views.
> Second that for the laugh, criminal battery.  That's a good one.
> Finally since things on this forum will not ruin anyone's life, why don't you tell us who you are?


No.  You’re stuck with me as is.  No Trumpian bully is ever going to deter me by trying to out me from the deep state.


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## outside! (Apr 12, 2018)

whatever said:


> perhaps we need a new way to view games...literally:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898814/


Interesting enough to be its own thread.


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## MWN (Apr 12, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Technically, the child’s behavior probably was a criminal battery if, as it appears, it occurred off the ball and not in self-defense.


Disagree.  It was "probably not," battery (see below) and it is inconsequential if it occurred off the ball.  In the US, the courts that have looked at "assault and battery" on the field of play use a different standard that focuses on the rules of the sports and "consent."  Both criminal and civil assault and battery require the touching be either unlawful or without consent (which forms a complete a defense).

In the context of sports (youth, adult-amateur, professional), the basic rule is that a player would need to not only violate the rules of the game, but commit an act that is so far beyond the rule makers' and the game participants' contemplation that it was not reasonably foreseeable in order to negate presumed consent to be subject to criminal prosecution. (see, Sports Law Blog)

In this case, you have a player tackling/pushing another player from behind, clearly not playing the ball, and "using excessive force."  The rules (aka Laws) of soccer contemplate this type of action (Law 12) and require the player to be sent off (if a referee sees it).  This type of "excessive force" behavior happens all the time in soccer at various levels (trips from behind, dangerous tackles, elbows to the ribs, etc.).

The only way I see this as potentially rising to the level of exceeding the express and implied consent within the sport of soccer would be if the player used a weapon or foreign object of some sort OR once the player was on the ground, kicked or began punching the defenseless player.  Once the physical contact exceeds the reasonably foreseeable "fouls" then consent is exceeded and criminal charges may result.

See, State of Washington v. Shelley (1997) for a discussion of how consent in sports is a defense to criminal prosecution.  California and Washington follow similar paths because they are both in the 9th Circuit.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 12, 2018)

[QUOTE="InTheValley, post: 187743, member: 4305

If a player is a menace who risks intentionally hurting other children, I see nothing wrong in letting others should know about it.  If shaming this kid and her parents deters future similar behavior, the person who posted the photos should get a medal.  

Who are we trying to protect? Kids who hurt other children?  Or their victims?[/QUOTE]

We don't have enough details. What if the other kid was talking smack or got a cheap shot before this incident?  They are emotional and physical and this girl should be banned for several games or more.    

The problem is that we are still posting one incident from a minor.   What if this was the only time she's fouled someone like this? Does she get hateful emails for the next 5 years just on this one incident?   
Did the victim have to go to the hospital? Did she break her leg? We just don't have enough info to put this one a blog site.   

Hypotheticaly, What if I take a picture of you screaming at  your child to show others how a bad parent you are?    It wouldn't be fair either.


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## *GOBEARGO* (Apr 12, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> No.  You’re stuck with me as is.  No Trumpian bully is ever going to deter me by trying to out me from the deep state.


Fool. Triggered. Snowflake.


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## Chalklines (Apr 12, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Nice. A graduate of the Trump school of debate, replete with ad hominem attacks.  Because you want to go down that road, I’m not surprised that you must resort to personal attacks instead of substantive discussion - or by your opinion - since you seem to fit the Texas high school football coach stereotype perfectly.  Given your inability to grasp fundamental concepts in grammar, punctuation and spelling, I hope they didn’t let you teach while you were there.
> 
> Technically, the child’s behavior probably was a criminal battery if, as it appears, it occurred off the ball and not in self-defense.  I’m glad law enforcement has better things to do, however, especially because public shaming and hopefully a red card are likely to be sufficient. I would have thought a tough guy like you would recognize that a few pictures like these on the internet aren’t going to ruin anyone’s life.  But maybe you are one of those snowflake parents raising children to be so emotionally soft that they can’t handle it?  Like you said, it’s just a game. So why are so agitated?


Criminal Battery.......just stop

Then you go and make it worse by trying for a political debate. Even better.

You've clearly embarrassed your self enough here. I couldn't possibly make it any worse for you with any type of response.

I'm done with this one.


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## InTheValley (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> Disagree.  It was "probably not," battery (see below) and it is inconsequential if it occurred off the ball.  In the US, the courts that have looked at "assault and battery" on the field of play use a different standard that focuses on the rules of the sports and "consent."  Both criminal and civil assault and battery require the touching be either unlawful or without consent (which forms a complete a defense).
> 
> In the context of sports (youth, adult-amateur, professional), the basic rule is that a player would need to not only violate the rules of the game, but commit an act that is so far beyond the rule makers' and the game participants' contemplation that it was not reasonably foreseeable in order to negate presumed consent to be subject to criminal prosecution. (see, Sports Law Blog)
> 
> ...


We have a wanna be lawyer.  CA and WA do not “follow similar paths because they’re in the 9th Circuit.”  The 9th circuit is a federal court, which means it has jurisdiction over claims arising under federal law or certain civil state law disputes between litigants of multiple states. Even in the case of the latter, individual state law applies. This is a moot point, though, because we are talking about criminal law. And diversity jurisdiction does not apply to state criminal law. And criminal battery statutes are  a creation of individual state law.

But if you are gonna be a wanna be lawyer moving forward, I recommend that you read the case you cite before relying on it to support your position. Because it says the opposite of what you claim it says. What it really says is:

“Here, taking Shelley's version of the events as true, the magnitude and dangerousness of Shelley's actions were beyond the limit. There is no question that Shelley lashed out at Gonzalez with sufficient force to land a substantial blow to the jaw, and there is no question but that Shelley intended to hit Gonzalez.   There is nothing in the game of basketball, or even rugby or hockey, that would permit consent as a defense to such conduct.   Shelley admitted to an assault and was not precluded from arguing that the assault justified self-defense;  but justification and consent are not the same inquiry.”

Rather, the court held that “intentional excesses beyond those reasonably contemplated in the sport are not justified”, which is the standard in WA, not the gobbledegook you are claiming. And (for the benefit of my favorite Texas football coach), this case actually cites another case in which a football player was criminally liable for punching someone because he didn’t like how he was tackled and believed he’d been punched as part of the tackle. The first punch was part of the play (and therefore within the scope of the game), but the one that came after was not, and was therefore outside the reasonable expectations of a participant. That becomes an important point shortly (see below).

Here, admittedly it was not a punch to the jaw.  Instead, if the photos accurately depict what transpired, it may be worse in the sense that it appears to have been a cheap shot from behind and did not involve the protection of a football helmet.  The fact that it appears to have been away from the ball is actually critical, notwithstanding your protestations otherwise, because this is the fact that appears to put this beyond just rough play and probably establishes the necessary intent.  And, as in the football case, also establishes that it was far enough removed from the run of play to arguably prohibit the defense of implied consent.  The last time I checked, jumping someone from behind, grabbing them by the neck and then throwing them the ground wasn’t something to which young girls consent when they choose to spend a lovely afternoon on the soccer pitch with their peers.  So I guess this means I definitively win this argument, at least in WA. But probably in CA too, since they’re both in the 9th circuit....

In the end, you miss the point, though, which is no one cares if it’s a crime or not, and I think we all agree it would be a “crime” to criminally prosecute a minor for this kind of behavior unless there’s a lot more. The point of this thread - before our TX football coach and others tried to act like law professors - is what you think about the photos and whether you think they should have been posted at all.


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## espola (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> Disagree.  It was "probably not," battery (see below) and it is inconsequential if it occurred off the ball.  In the US, the courts that have looked at "assault and battery" on the field of play use a different standard that focuses on the rules of the sports and "consent."  Both criminal and civil assault and battery require the touching be either unlawful or without consent (which forms a complete a defense).
> 
> In the context of sports (youth, adult-amateur, professional), the basic rule is that a player would need to not only violate the rules of the game, but commit an act that is so far beyond the rule makers' and the game participants' contemplation that it was not reasonably foreseeable in order to negate presumed consent to be subject to criminal prosecution. (see, Sports Law Blog)
> 
> ...


The referee not seeing it is pretty weak defense.


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## InTheValley (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> Disagree.  It was "probably not," battery (see below) and it is inconsequential if it occurred off the ball.  In the US, the courts that have looked at "assault and battery" on the field of play use a different standard that focuses on the rules of the sports and "consent."  Both criminal and civil assault and battery require the touching be either unlawful or without consent (which forms a complete a defense).
> 
> In the context of sports (youth, adult-amateur, professional), the basic rule is that a player would need to not only violate the rules of the game, but commit an act that is so far beyond the rule makers' and the game participants' contemplation that it was not reasonably foreseeable in order to negate presumed consent to be subject to criminal prosecution. (see, Sports Law Blog)
> 
> ...


I apologize for my patronizing tone with you. You did not deserve it. I should have focused it solely on the TX fella with the thin skin.  Unfortunately It does not appear to let me delete posts.


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## MWN (Apr 12, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> We have a wanna be lawyer.  CA and WA do not “follow similar paths because they’re in the 9th Circuit.”  The 9th circuit is a federal court, which means it has jurisdiction over claims arising under federal law or certain civil state law disputes between litigants of multiple states. Even in the case of the latter, individual state law applies. This is a moot point, though, because we are talking about criminal law. And diversity jurisdiction does not apply to state criminal law. And criminal battery statutes are  a creation of individual state law.
> 
> But if you are gonna be a wanna be lawyer moving forward, I recommend that you read the case you cite before relying on it to support your position. Because it says the opposite of what you claim it says. What it really says is:
> 
> ...


Thank you for the apology.  

For the record, I'm not a "wanna be," rather an actual (now retired) lawyer with over 18 years under my belt and a current USSF Referee familiar with the Laws of the Game.  I did read the case.  It stands for the proposition that I cited, which is that force contemplated within the rules of a sports is subject to a "consent" defense.  Force exceeding that which is contemplated by the rules may be actionable.  The facts of the case were a punch to the jaw made with sufficient force to break the victims jaw, in a pickup game, were deemed to exceed the those reasonably contemplated.  

My disagreement was that your stated "probably a crime" to which I replied "probably not a crime" and stated the reason.  My point with regard to the 9th Circuit, is that California State courts tend to give greater weight to neighboring states (i.e. those states in the 9th Circuit) when looking at decisions of other jurisdictions.  While other states are not "controlling" they tend to be more "persuasive" than states further away.  Of course, the respective legal doctrines of each State need to align (community property state v. common law).  In this case both Washington State and California have adopted the Model Penal code, thus, decisions of these states can be "persuasive."

From a referee's perspective, the photos document a "send off" offense on Law 12, regardless of all but one factor related to the location of the ball.  The only exception in my mind is the situation where one player climbs over the back of another player while attempting to "head" a ball, which would have similar physical contact.  In that instance I can see mitigating factors.

Given my retirement from the practice of law, I suppose it would be safe to call me a "no longer wanna be lawyer."


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> Thank you for the apology.
> 
> For the record, I'm not a "wanna be," rather an actual (now retired) lawyer with over 18 years under my belt and a current USSF Referee familiar with the Laws of the Game.
> 
> Given my retirement from the practice of law, I suppose it would be safe to call me a "no longer wanna be lawyer."



Boom!! That's what I call dropping the Microphone on someone.  nice!!


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## coachrefparent (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> Thank you for the apology.
> 
> For the record, I'm not a "wanna be," rather an actual (now retired) lawyer with over 18 years under my belt and a current USSF Referee familiar with the Laws of the Game.  I did read the case.  It stands for the proposition that I cited, which is that force contemplated within the rules of a sports is subject to a "consent" defense.  Force exceeding that which is contemplated by the rules may be actionable.  The facts of the case were a punch to the jaw made with sufficient force to break the victims jaw, in a pickup game, were deemed to exceed the those reasonably contemplated.
> 
> ...


Wow pretty good to retire as a lawyer after only 18 years. You must have done well for yourself (or vice versa). 

But, you did cite to a WA state case instead of CA authority, and then claimed it had something to do with the 9th Circuit. Happy retirement!


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## MWN (Apr 12, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Wow pretty good to retire as a lawyer after only 18 years. You must have done well for yourself (or vice versa).
> 
> But, you did cite to a WA state case instead of CA authority, and then claimed it had something to do with the 9th Circuit. Happy retirement!


Switched careers ... didn't like various elements of the practice of law.

To my knowledge and (non-Westlaw/Lexis ... subscriptions are long expires) research, there is no published California case regarding "criminal prosecution" related to violent conduct on a sports field.  Therefore, courts would look at persuasive authority.  Now, in my experience, citing persuasive authority in the 9th Circuit (to the extent Federal courts have looked at the issue) and/or States near California (these same 9th Circuit states), California courts are going to give that authority greater persuasive weight than say ... Maine.


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## SocalPapa (Apr 13, 2018)

The pictures have finally been deleted (thankfully), but it was never clear to me that the foul was completely off the ball.  Both players were facing the sideline on the very far side of the field.  It looked like they were anticipating a throw-in.  I could imagine that type of collision happening where both players were running full speed toward the thrower and the girl in front (perhaps the defender) suddenly slowed or stopped her momentum.  It was odd that the photos started with the one girl already in the air.  Did she jump because she was trying to avoid a collision or because she wanted to collide with more force?  Hard for me to tell without seeing what happened before (or a video).  Players get tangled up in an infinite number of ways in soccer.  It's very had to judge intent from a few cropped/zoomed still photos from the end of a play.  And battery is an intentional tort, so you can't even begin to consider a possible crime here without determining intent.

And I agree @MWN's persuasive authority is relevant, but might have expressed it a little differently.  Judges consider decisions from other states highly persuasive where both share a similar legal doctrine.  States are most likely to share similar legal doctrines where they share demographic, geographic and/or historic similarities.  And states within a given Federal Circuit would be most likely to share those similarities.  So that's often where practitioners start when searching for persuasive authority in state cases.  I otherwise thought his analysis was right on point.  Well done counselor!


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## Surfref (Apr 13, 2018)

Chalklines said:


> Pathetic.......most pathetic post I've seen in long time. "malicious physical attack" .. Please
> 
> It's just a game. It ends once the ref blows the whistle.
> 
> Nothings criminal here except the fact you drive on the same roads as I do.


I have to disagree with you that it is just a game and ends once the referee blows the whistle.  My daughter suffered two serious injuries because players like the one in the picture thought it was ok to basically play like a thug.  My daughter's broken wrist and concussion and did not end when the referee blew the whistle, or the next day, or the next or the next, but took months to heal.  IMHO these types of intentional attacks need to be punished with more than a multi-game suspension and should be suspended for months and not just a couple games.  Had this happened on a field that I was the referee, the player in the red jersey would have been ejected for violent conduct and my game report would have reflected the intentional and violent attack.

Had another kid come up behind your kid on a sidewalk and thrown them violently to the ground, I am sure you wouldn't just brush it off as just a game.  If this type of behavior is not acceptable by society off a youth sports field, then why should it be acceptable on a youth soccer field? Sure soccer is a physical game, but it should not be a violent game.  If you cannot tell the difference than there is something wrong with the gray matter between your ears.


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## espola (Apr 13, 2018)

MWN said:


> Switched careers ... didn't like various elements of the practice of law.
> 
> To my knowledge and (non-Westlaw/Lexis ... subscriptions are long expires) research, there is no published California case regarding "criminal prosecution" related to violent conduct on a sports field.  Therefore, courts would look at persuasive authority.  Now, in my experience, citing persuasive authority in the 9th Circuit (to the extent Federal courts have looked at the issue) and/or States near California (these same 9th Circuit states), California courts are going to give that authority greater persuasive weight than say ... Maine.


High school game in Poway a few years back - forward from Ramona punched a Poway defender more than once in the face, breaking his jaw and knocking out some teeth.  The ref didn't see it, but he was sure something had happened because of the obvious bloody mess, so he asked the Ramona coach what and who and ejected the player.  The next day, while the player was in the process of being suspended from school, the Sheriff Deputies showed up and took him into custody.


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## Surfref (Apr 13, 2018)

espola said:


> High school game in Poway a few years back - forward from Ramona punched a Poway defender more than once in the face, breaking his jaw and knocking out some teeth.  The ref didn't see it, but he was sure something had happened because of the obvious bloody mess, so he asked the Ramona coach what and who and ejected the player.  The next day, while the player was in the process of being suspended from school, the Sheriff Deputies showed up and took him into custody.


I remember that.  It was the same year that the U17 girl from Hemet got arrested at the field for throwing an opponent to the ground by her neck then stepping on her.  The parents called the police and had video evidence. I don't know if either player was convicted, but they were arrested and taken away in handcuffs.


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## focomoso (Apr 13, 2018)

outside! said:


> Interesting enough to be its own thread.


Yes - please post it again in its own thread. It's interesting and this thread has jumped the shark.


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## outside! (Apr 13, 2018)

focomoso said:


> Yes - please post it again in its own thread. It's interesting and this thread has jumped the shark.


http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/a-different-view-point.14742/


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## Surfref (Apr 13, 2018)

QUOTE="ATRTDT, post: 188331, member: 3099"]You signed up for a physical sport. Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? Things happen.  Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating. Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. Crying parents are just killing sports these days.[/QUOTE]

I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play.  The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling.  Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field.  All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact.  But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field.  If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.

My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections.  Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face.  The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground.  I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field.  If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.


----------



## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Apr 13, 2018)

ATRTDT said:


> You signed up for a physical sport. (1) Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? (2) Things happen.  Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. (3) If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating.(4) Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? (5) Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. (6) Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. (7) Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. (8)  Crying parents are just killing sports these days (9) .


(1) yes, signed up for a physical sport, not an attack on my kid
(2) no, doesn't matter.  No room in any level of sports for thuggery.  Even the NHL understands that
(3) yes, but you shouldn't have to "recover" from an assault on the field
(4) see #1 above,
(5) no, but I am OK if we are a leader in taking steps to protect our kids
(6) I don't know of any parent who has a kid playing at a high level that doesn't expect contact.  None of them think it is OK for their kid to be assaulted (not even on the pitch)
(7) No, just want to referees to call the game and keep the kids safe; nothing more/nothing less
(8) the kids I know don't want a trophy for showing up
(9) the good old days; when men were men, women were women, American kids played American sports and Title IX wasn't screwing everything up for every WASPy male. 
(10) If you think a kid assaulting another kid on the pitch (or in any game) is just a par of the "game," then you are the problem with youth sports.


----------



## Fact (Apr 13, 2018)

Surfref said:


> QUOTE="ATRTDT, post: 188331, member: 3099"]You signed up for a physical sport. Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? Things happen.  Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating. Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. Crying parents are just killing sports these days.


I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play.  The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling.  Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field.  All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact.  But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field.  If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.

My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections.  Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face.  The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground.  I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field.  If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.[/QUOTE]
Just current what age were these fouls committed and what was the outcome? Any cards given?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 13, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Like you said, it’s just a game. *So why are so agitated*?


Before you go all high and mighty, bashing Trump and Texas coaches and about punctuation and name calling, better check yourself.
What team in texas do you coach?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 13, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> We have a wanna be lawyer.  CA and WA do not “follow similar paths because they’re in the 9th Circuit.”  The 9th circuit is a federal court, which means it has jurisdiction over claims arising under federal law or certain civil state law disputes between litigants of multiple states. Even in the case of the latter, individual state law applies. This is a moot point, though, because we are talking about criminal law. And diversity jurisdiction does not apply to state criminal law. And criminal battery statutes are  a creation of individual state law.
> 
> But if you are gonna be a wanna be lawyer moving forward, I recommend that you read the case you cite before relying on it to support your position. Because it says the opposite of what you claim it says. What it really says is:
> 
> ...


Another fake attorney.


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## Dominic (Apr 13, 2018)

Would that foul be considered a VC?


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## Pebbs99 (Apr 13, 2018)

I was born in a different country.  Growing up, we would play on the streets without referees.  We would play with the kids in the neighborhood, some kids were 3 or 4 years older, sometimes even more.  There was always physically, and some “thuggery” and unfortunately there were some injuries because kids would get emotional.  I remember after I embarrassed a kid 5 years older, after i ran past him, he slide tackle me from behind and hurt my ankle.  I went home crying and I got beat by my mom for “getting hurt” and “letting myself get bullied”.   It thought me to be smarter on the field, I would be more aware of my sorroundings, and other things.  
Anyway, things like this exist all over the world.  Is it right?, no.  But we deal with it, it’s a game, once it’s done, it’s done.  How many times have you seen this type of foul in professional soccer?  The most they give a player for that is 2 games, why should youth soccer be so off and want “jail time”. (Im exaggerating your responses btw).


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## coachrefparent (Apr 13, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> I was born in a different country.  Growing up, we would play on the streets without referees.  We would play with the kids in the neighborhood, some kids were 3 or 4 years older, sometimes even more.  There was always physically, and some “thuggery” and unfortunately there were some injuries because kids would get emotional.  I remember after I embarrassed a kid 5 years older, after i ran past him, he slide tackle me from behind and hurt my ankle.  I went home crying and I got beat by my mom for “getting hurt” and “letting myself get bullied”.   It thought me to be smarter on the field, I would be more aware of my sorroundings, and other things.
> Anyway, things like this exist all over the world.  Is it right?, no.  But we deal with it, it’s a game, once it’s done, it’s done.  How many times have you seen this type of foul in professional soccer?  The most they give a player for that is 2 games, why should youth soccer be so off and want “jail time”. (Im exaggerating your responses btw).


No it's not right. I'm sorry your mom treated you that way. Sad.


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## watfly (Apr 14, 2018)

Kudos to the OP for removing the photos.  That's a classy move.  Hopefully others will learn from this that it's not OK for an adult to photo shame a minor.  Just because you think a kid is thug is no rationalization for photo shaming.

Thug behavior should be punished by the ref and/or the appropriate organization/authority, not by some emotional parent.


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## NickName (Apr 14, 2018)

watfly said:


> Thug behavior should be punished by the ref and/or the appropriate organization/authority, not by some emotional parent.


*the following is a bit tongue in cheek 

What if the emotional parent is proud of his kid for (semi)thuggish behavior?
My kid got booted from a game for throwing a ball at someone.  Initially it was a wtf moment for me until I talked to him after the game (then watched the video). 
Turns out that he was slide tackled from behind (easy call) then the kid grabbed the ball and lobbed it (not hard) at his head as he was laying on the ground.  
Only time I’ve seen my kid lose his cool completely.


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## watfly (Apr 14, 2018)

NickName said:


> *the following is a bit tongue in cheek
> 
> What if the emotional parent is proud of his kid for (semi)thuggish behavior?
> My kid got booted from a game for throwing a ball at someone.  Initially it was a wtf moment for me until I talked to him after the game (then watched the video).
> ...


Personally, I think that's awesome.  Your son handled his business without Mommy or Daddy interfering and next time he will think twice about losing his temper and hurting the team.  Win, win.


----------



## Surfref (Apr 14, 2018)

Fact said:


> I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play.  The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling.  Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field.  All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact.  But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field.  If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.
> 
> My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections.  Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face.  The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground.  I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field.  If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.


Just current what age were these fouls committed and what was the outcome? Any cards given?[/QUOTE]

16 and 17 years old.  16 y/o - red card and 3 game suspension.  17 y/o - red card and suspended for 7 games (remainder of fall season), since it was the offending player’s 3rd red card with a prior violent assault.  DD club DOC and coach submitted 3 videos as evidence to the league to show the incident was intentional and violent.  DD was back playing the next weekend after the broken wrist and was out 6 weeks and missed a week of school with the concussion.


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## Surfref (Apr 14, 2018)

Dominic said:


> Would that foul be considered a VC?


Yes


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## SSJSG UI (Apr 14, 2018)

We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division.  We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding.  Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out.  Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen.  Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches.  Ref just didn't care.  The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL).  Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players.  Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.  

After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell.  Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game.  One said how you like them apples or something to that effect.  The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle.  Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late.  We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid.  In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).

We didn't leave for 30 minutes because our coach was giving our kids (who were crying at that time) a prep talk.  Because of the yelling from our side when their kids were fouled by our kids, those parents actually waited (for 30 minutes) and confronted us in the parking lot.  Their coach got into with the parents too after one of us call him out on his intention to hurt our boys.  Luckily, one of our parent said the cops were called and those guys scattered like cockroaches.  Our coach, who has been in the business for over 20 years, have never seen this.  He's seen reckless plays, dirty plays, and careless plays, but nothing like these boys were doing.    

That was the first game.  We actually had a second game left at our home field.  Because of what happened, we asked our club to get three refs and get some security.  We got two refs and no security (wasn't really expecting security, but we thought it wouldn't hurt to ask).  Some of the parents who were in the parking lot scuffle were told to stay home to avoid running into those parents again.  Our team manager told the refs what happened in the first game and asked them to please call the games tight even if we are doing the ticky tact fouls.   You would have thought it went better?  Nope.  Again, we scored first.  Again, fouls started to happened.  But this time the refs started to call fouls.  However, the fouls got harder and harder as the refs called for more fouls, and the refs had to stop the game a few time to tell the other coach to calm down.  Except for the fouls, that was actually a good game.  It was tied 2-2 until 3 minutes left when they scored what ended up to be the game winning goal.  It actually was a good goal as the kid half volleyed it in.  Kid celebrated like CR7 (of course he did LOL)....but guess what one of the parents went out to the field and celebrated with the kid picking him up and ran across the pitch.  The center ref threw him out but he didn't leave the field.  He went to the entrance which was like 30 yards away.  Once the final whistle blow, that same parent took off his shirt and started running toward the field waving his shirt around.  Our coach started to confront the coach and said that it was uncalled for and that parent actually threatened our coach.  He along with another dad waited outside the entrance, but again, one of our dads told those two to scram because police was called.  Needless to say they left, but as they were walking out, they were chanting XX (our club name) sucks, XX are P-word.  It took me great restraint not to go apeshit on those two.  

I have a video of that fool celebrating and running around celebrating as if he won the world cup but i wont post it anywhere.  I really want to shame him on the internet but my wife talked me out of it as both team's  kids faces were fairly clear.  I understand OP's frustration and the reason for the post.  We actually saw one of their state cup game from afar and the same dirty plays happened.  Fouls were called and their coach and parents got into with the refs.  Dont know what happened next as our game were starting. 

My question to the refs in this community, are you aware of reputations of teams and coaches like this and how do you call those games.


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## outside! (Apr 14, 2018)

Your wife is a wise woman.


----------



## Mystery Train (Apr 14, 2018)

There is less tension along the North Korean border than the sidelines of just about any U10 Bronze league game.   Every foul is attempted murder and every goal is treated like the winner in a WC final.   I really don't miss those days.


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## coachrefparent (Apr 14, 2018)

SSJSG UI said:


> We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division.  We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding.  Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out.  Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen.  Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches.  Ref just didn't care.  The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL).  Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players.  Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.
> 
> After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell.  Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game.  One said how you like them apples or something to that effect.  The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle.  Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late.  We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid.  In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).
> 
> ...


Wow this is an incredible story. What language did the coach and players speak that only a person on your team understood? Where did this occur that there was only 1 referee? What league? What kind of people allow this to happen (on both sides)?


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## SSJSG UI (Apr 14, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Wow this is an incredible story. What language did the coach and players speak that only a person on your team understood? Where did this occur that there was only 1 referee? What league? What kind of people allow this to happen (on both sides)?


I'd rather not say the language nor the location the games were because it might give it away and our team doesn't want any trouble from those guys.  It's a CSL bronze game so one ref is common and we play in LA County, not OC.  I'd like to think that the emotion got the best of our side because many of the parents are fairly even tempered.  Even the most level-headed dad who is normally quiet was outraged and started to yell as our kids were getting tripped left and right.  That's the reason why we told those who were involved in the parking lot scuffule to stay home in the second game to prevent  further escalation..but that didn't happen.  The team manager told us afterwards that the refs thought we were just working them and exaggerated things.  In hindsight, can't blame the refs either cause every time I talked about this other coaches or refs, their jaws dropped.  I think those guys will eventually be beaten easily when kids who are fundamentally and technically sound starting to grow.


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## SSJSG UI (Apr 14, 2018)

outside! said:


> Your wife is a wise woman.


That's why i married her.  Haha


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## SSJSG UI (Apr 14, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> There is less tension along the North Korean border than the sidelines of just about any U10 Bronze league game.   Every foul is attempted murder and every goal is treated like the winner in a WC final.   I really don't miss those days.


Agreed.  After that first game, all the parents were more "chilled" and relaxed.


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## Fact (Apr 15, 2018)

Next time you play them film the game from multiple angles and if you have the same problems send the videos to Calsouth, the ref association and the DOC.  Absolutely ridiculous.


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## Surfref (Apr 15, 2018)

SSJSG UI said:


> We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division.  We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding.  Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out.  Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen.  Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches.  Ref just didn't care.  The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL).  Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players.  Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.
> 
> After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell.  Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game.  One said how you like them apples or something to that effect.  The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle.  Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late.  We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid.  In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).
> 
> ...


Insane parents at those 12 and under games and especially at the 7v7 games.  

To answer your question, yes the refs that have been around for a while know the reputations of coaches, teams, clubs and even certain players. Some coaches also know the reputations of some refs and how they call the game and how much noise they will take from the coach and spectators.


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## Toch (Apr 15, 2018)

SSJSG UI said:


> We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division.  We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding.  Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out.  Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen.  Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches.  Ref just didn't care.  The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL).  Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players.  Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.
> 
> After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell.  Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game.  One said how you like them apples or something to that effect.  The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle.  Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late.  We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid.  In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).
> 
> ...


If in fact it played out as you tell it, call out the club and the team. Don’t be afraid to call out the coach and everyone associated


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Apr 15, 2018)

Fact said:


> Next time you play them film the game from multiple angles and if you have the same problems send the videos to Calsouth, the ref association and the DOC.  Absolutely ridiculous.


What I wouldn't give to be the one at Cal South receiving all those crazy videos


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## coachrefparent (Apr 16, 2018)

OCsoccerdad7777 said:


> What I wouldn't give to be the one at Cal South receiving all those crazy videos


But it didn't  really happen that way. It doesn't show the whole picture. You don't  see what she did to her before. The first half nothing was called. What about the first time we played them? It was all ball...


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## focomoso (Apr 16, 2018)

SSJSG UI said:


> We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division.


This behavior is even more ridiculous given that it's bronze.


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## watfly (Apr 16, 2018)

focomoso said:


> This behavior is even more ridiculous given that it's bronze.


No doubt, but a parent running around shirtless waving the shirt to celebrate his kids soccer victory is ridiculous at any level of play.  We had a similar 2007 game a couple years ago in an early season tourney but without the shirt waving, parking lot confrontation and the rematch.   Instead, we had punches thrown (on the pitch and in the handshake line), middle finger salutes and f-bombs directed at our parents by the opposing team.   A few of our players got tired of getting tackled by behind, elbowed and kicked (actions which were likely spurred on by the opposing parents instructions of "take them out" in another language) without fouls called, so they took matters into their own hands and started to retaliate.  Probably a half-dozen extended stoppages of play for injuries.  The AR admitted the that the CR was letting the game get out of control but claimed because of ref protocol he wasn't allowed to voice his opinion to the CR.  My son was punched right in front of the ref and CR just waived if off.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 16, 2018)

A little story about sideline behavior and how I learned to chill the hell out.  

First year of DD's club was u11 bronze.  We were total club soccer newbies, but so were all of the parents on the team save one.  Those of us who were new lived and died with the on field exploits of our little soccer girls.  It was fun.  We socialized with the parents, we commiserated over how we got ripped off by that ref, how we dominated the game but lost, how the other team were clearly loaded with older kids with fake birth certificates, etc. etc.  But I kept noticing how that one family stayed over to the side.  They never engaged in these discussions.  They were very nice, but they just set up at the back corner of the field and stayed quiet.  They didn't really cheer when we scored. Not even when their kid was the one scoring.  They never yelled at the refs when he missed a call.  Even when it was their kid who got decked by a reckless play.  They didn't engage in gossip about who was moving to what team.  They didn't get upset by losses.  They smiled and clapped when we won, but that was about it.  One day I asked the dad about his other kids.  Turned out that he had a son playing Div 2 soccer on scholarship.  His oldest daughter had just committed to St. John's.  His middle daughter was on her 3rd club and his youngest (on our team) was on her 2nd club.   But they downplayed their kids' on field accomplishments.  They lit up when I asked them about college and what the kids were studying.  About what they wanted to do after college.  I realized then that these folks had seen and been through it all.  And they knew the score...they had their priorities straight.  And even when they traveled back east to see their kids play in college, I'm sure they were still as cool as the other side of the pillow.

It's like this...Have you ever seen the clip of (then coach) Larry Bird's reaction to Reggie Miller hitting the game winning shot for him with .7 seconds on the clock against the Bulls in the playoffs?  Cold.  Stone cold.  He barely blinks.  He's like, "Been there.  Done that."    







I realized then that I had to see the bigger picture.  What was happening in those ulittles bronze and then silver and then silver elite, and then Flight 1 games didn't mean jack.  The bad calls.  The rough fouls.  The goals scored.  The games won or lost.  It was the big picture of investing in my child's development that mattered, in life lessons, and in being her parent, her mentor, her guide.  Not living vicariously through her.  Not re-living my own athletic childhood dreams.  It all seemed a lot less dramatic after that realization.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Apr 16, 2018)

focomoso said:


> This behavior is even more ridiculous given that it's bronze.


Totally normal at Silver Elite or Gold right?


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## espola (Apr 16, 2018)

watfly said:


> The AR admitted the that the CR was letting the game get out of control but claimed because of ref protocol he wasn't allowed to voice his opinion to the CR.


Bullshit.


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## watfly (Apr 16, 2018)

espola said:


> Bullshit.


Yes, I thought the AR's excuse was bullshit too, but hey that's what he claimed.


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## Surf Zombie (Apr 16, 2018)

When my 2007 DD was a U9 we played up in the U10 division at a Memorial Day tournament.  90 degrees, 4 hours between Sunday games and lots of booze in the parking lot.  My DD’s team was up 5-2 or so with about 15 minutes left. Other team was frustrated, as they lost their first two and were about to lose their third to a younger team. 

My daughter and a girl from the other team collided really hard chasing down a shot that bounced back off the cross bar. Other kid got the wind knocked out of her and fell on the ground crying. Nothing intentional, just an unfortunate collision.  

The girl’s mother ran out onto the field to tend to her kid while all the kids took a knee. The referee was yelling at the mom to get off the field. Other team’s parents start screaming at the referee “That’s her F..in Kid!”  One of the dad’s goes out on the field and two hand shoved the sixty year old referee in the chest. He falls to the ground and calls 911 from his phone while on the ground. Both sets of parents enter the field screaming at each other. Parents on the other team start fighting each other. Cop cars come flying up to the field with lights and sirens on. Game was called.  Kids watched the entire sorted mess.  My daughter, who was 8 at the time,  gets in the car and the only thing she says is  “Can we go get an ice cream now?”


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## timbuck (Apr 16, 2018)

I like knocking back adult beverages as much as anybody.  But I don’t understand the need to booze at a kids sporting event.  The game is 60 minutes at the younger ages.  If you can’t wait an hour for a beer-  just stay home.


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## coachrefparent (Apr 16, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I like knocking back adult beverages as much as anybody.  But I don’t understand the need to booze at a kids sporting event.  The game is 60 minutes at the younger ages.  If you can’t wait an hour for a beer-  just stay home.


The post said there were 4 hours between games. I guess they decided this was more than an hour. It's a cultural thing, but we can't name the culture nor language...


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## timbuck (Apr 16, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> The post said there were 4 hours between games. I guess they decided this was more than an hour. It's a cultural thing, but we can't name the culture nor language...


Urban Redneck?


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