# Build out line - Can everyone please agree on the rules?



## justneededaname (Jul 3, 2017)

First off, let me say, I like the build out line. My oldest played before it was implemented and now I am experiencing it for the first time with my DD. And, like most/all of our parents, I don't know what the actual rules are for implementing it in a game.

Second, her team played three games this weekend and all three had refs that were very good with these young inexperienced players. Except, all three implemented the build out line differently.

This was our girls first time playing with the build out line so in each game the refs spent a lot of time teaching the girls their rules for how to implement it. Unfortunately, that meant a lot of time was spent in each game explaining how to play the build out line. Our girls are 7 so they are easily confused. But they are also good learners. In the first game they learned the rules. Then in the second they tried to play by them only to find out the rules were different for this ref. So they relearned them. Then in the third game they tried to apply them, and again, had to relearn them for that game.

As I said, I don't know the rules, so I don't know which ref was "right". Each interpretation to me was perfectly acceptable. I would just prefer some consistency so that the girls can spend more time practicing what they learn instead of having to relearn each time.


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## baldref (Jul 3, 2017)

this is what we have received lately.






i haven't watched it yet.


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## Socal United (Jul 3, 2017)

baldref said:


> this is what we have received lately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I find perplexing is that I was told that the line was supposed to be in between the top of the box and the mid line, not between the touch line and the mid line.  We did friendlies this weekend with the way we had thought it was supposed to be, it does work great.  They are supposed to stay behind the line until the receiving player touches the ball.  If the line is they way he explains, it is just outside the box.  That said, the boxes are supposed to be much smaller with no 6 yard box.  The problem is, US soccer has not just said this is what you are doing, the end.  I asked a couple friends from other states and they have different interpretations.


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## twoclubpapa (Jul 3, 2017)

Socal United said:


> What I find perplexing is that I was told that the line was supposed to be in between the top of the box and the mid line, not between the touch line and the mid line.  ...


The Cal South document describing the 2017-18 Player Development Initiatives (PDI) at  http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Top_Stories/2017/USSF_SSG_Chart_update_041017.pdf?rev=28DA  shows the line just as *Socal United* describes.  However, the illustration and narrative in the video describes it as halfway between the goal line and the halfway (midfield) line.  A governing body puts its referees in an unfortunate situation when there's a discrepancy between written direction and training material.  When some referees follow one and other referees do the other there are complaints from coaches and parents about referee inconsistency and the refs get the blame rather than the governing body.  For example, consider recent history on the initial implementation of the "no heading" rule.


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## twoclubpapa (Jul 3, 2017)

Upon further review, I note that the CalSouth PDI document indicates that only 9U and 10U with 7 vs 7 have the build out line.  The OP relates his observation of games with 7 year old players so who knows what rules apply.  Are 8U and below playing 4 vs 4 like the PDI describes or are clubs doing their own thing at 7U and 8U?


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## Socal United (Jul 4, 2017)

twoclubpapa said:


> Upon further review, I note that the CalSouth PDI document indicates that only 9U and 10U with 7 vs 7 have the build out line.  The OP relates his observation of games with 7 year old players so who knows what rules apply.  Are 8U and below playing 4 vs 4 like the PDI describes or are clubs doing their own thing at 7U and 8U?


I don't think anyone is playing 4v4.  I can't imagine there will be much implementation of that now or in the future.  When calsouth puts its foot down, everyone will just work around it.  
You are right, the refs have a tough enough time as it is.  All of these new rules, with all of these judgements make it so much more difficult.  Along those lines, they discuss a goal kick.  I was told that there were no more goal kicks, the ball started in the goalie's hands.  If the keeper has the ball on either a save or a ball kicked out, he plays it from there.  No goal kicks.  It is very frustrating also for us coaches that are trying to teach the kids how to play with these new rules, but the target is always moving.


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## Good365 (Jul 4, 2017)

So am I understanding the video correctly when he states NOT offsides if between mid line and build out line? Is this regardless of whether or not there is a second last opponent level with or behind you?


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## coachrefparent (Jul 4, 2017)

I'm glad I don't referee these games.


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## Socal United (Jul 5, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I'm glad I don't referee these games.


The scary part is, these games are usually reffed by the 14 or the 114 year olds.  Going to be way more work than it used to be.  The offsides can only take place in the offensive 3rd of the field, beyond the play out line.  Parents are going to be losing their minds over the offsides calls, it is already funny enough when they do and the teams are not even past the mid line.


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## Surfref (Jul 5, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I'm glad I don't referee these games.


I am going to try to avoid them unless it is as a single referee.  The $55-$60 per game is too much to pass up.  The rules don't seem too complicated.  It will just take a couple weeks in the fall for teams to adjust.  My only concern is for those referee's that do not go to monthly meetings and do not stay current on the changes.  They will e the ones causing problems.


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## baldref (Jul 5, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I am going to try to avoid them unless it is as a single referee.  The $55-$60 per game is too much to pass up.  The rules don't seem too complicated.  It will just take a couple weeks in the fall for teams to adjust.  My only concern is for those referee's that do not go to monthly meetings and do not stay current on the changes.  They will e the ones causing problems.


the only bad thing about these games are the parents. love the littles......


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## MWN (Jul 6, 2017)

Socal United said:


> The scary part is, these games are usually reffed by the 14 or the 114 year olds.  Going to be way more work than it used to be.  The offsides can only take place in the offensive 3rd of the field, beyond the play out line.  Parents are going to be losing their minds over the offsides calls, it is already funny enough when they do and the teams are not even past the mid line.


If the OP's experience was the Madrid Cup, then I very well could have been one of those referees.  The Cal South PDI is fairly clear.  The difficult thing is the SCDSL changed the rules during the initial season and there is some disagreement as to the placement of the BOL.  Here is what I can tell you how I referee the BOL:

1) All defenders behind the BOL until GK plays the ball and the offensive players receives the ball, UNLESS, the GK elects to play the ball while the defenders have yet to get back, then ... defenders can engage (as long as they were making a good faith effort to get back).  Spirit of the rule is to allow a touch before being harassed, but not to disadvantage the defenders if the offense plays from the back fast.

2) No offside until after BOL ... this is hard for the coaches dressed like parents ... ohhh so very hard. 

Parent: "Cindy your offside."
Cindy: Look of confusion ... runs back
Me: "Parents, no offside until after the BOL.  I strongly suggest you don't coach from the sideline ... coaches hate that."  "Cindy, ignore your dad, you were fine."
Coach: [Big smile and thumbs up]​
Now, with regard to No. 2, the SCDSL started with the no offside rule, then changed it a few games into the season.  SCDSL was an early adopter ... good for them, but changing the offside to "after the half" confused the heck out of everybody.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 7, 2017)

Good365 said:


> So am I understanding the video correctly when he states NOT offsides if between mid line and build out line? Is this regardless of whether or not there is a second last opponent level with or behind you?


Yes.


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## justneededaname (Jul 8, 2017)

MWN said:


> If the OP's experience was the Madrid Cup, then I very well could have been one of those referees.
> 
> 1) All defenders behind the BOL until GK plays the ball and the offensive players receives the ball, UNLESS, the GK elects to play the ball while the defenders have yet to get back, then ... defenders can engage (as long as they were making a good faith effort to get back).  Spirit of the rule is to allow a touch before being harassed, but not to disadvantage the defenders if the offense plays from the back fast.
> 
> 2) No offside until after BOL ... this is hard for the coaches dressed like parents ... ohhh so very hard.


If you had one of our games at Madrid Cup, thank you very much. All our refs were very good. Based on your response to point number 1, then you would have had either game 1 or 3, but definitely not game 2. In game 2 the defenders could engage as soon as the goalie put the ball in play without waiting for another player to receive it. Based on the response to point number 2, you might have had our first game. In the third game offside was called at the half (which worked in our favor, we would have lost by a lot more if they called it at the BOL).

My original post was inspired by interpretations of point number 1. Until these responses started rolling in, I did not even know the BOL had anything to do with offside.


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## Just a Parent (Jul 8, 2017)

justneededaname said:


> If you had one of our games at Madrid Cup, thank you very much. All our refs were very good. Based on your response to point number 1, then you would have had either game 1 or 3, but definitely not game 2. In game 2 the defenders could engage as soon as the goalie put the ball in play without waiting for another player to receive it. Based on the response to point number 2, you might have had our first game. In the third game offside was called at the half (which worked in our favor, we would have lost by a lot more if they called it at the BOL).
> 
> My original post was inspired by interpretations of point number 1. Until these responses started rolling in, I did not even know the BOL had anything to do with offside.


Various leagues/tournaments adapt different interpretations of the rules. The trick is to always read competition rules. They are not always the same. The referee may have a game in the morning that interprets the rule one way and another game in the afternoon that interprets it another way, hence the need for referees to always read competition rules for each gaming circuit prior to the game.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 8, 2017)

justneededaname said:


> If you had one of our games at Madrid Cup, thank you very much. All our refs were very good. Based on your response to point number 1, then you would have had either game 1 or 3, but definitely not game 2. In game 2 the defenders could engage as soon as the goalie put the ball in play without waiting for another player to receive it. Based on the response to point number 2, you might have had our first game. In the third game offside was called at the half (which worked in our favor, we would have lost by a lot more if they called it at the BOL).
> 
> My original post was inspired by interpretations of point number 1. Until these responses started rolling in, I did not even know the BOL had anything to do with offside.


According to Presidio & Cal South, _"After the ball is put into play by the goalkeeper, the opposing team can cross the build out line and play resumes as normal."
_
See this handout.


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## watfly (Jul 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> According to Presidio & Cal South, _"After the ball is put into play by the goalkeeper, the opposing team can cross the build out line and play resumes as normal."
> _
> See this handout.


Same exact verbiage for the US Soccer PDI  http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Resources/PDIFebruary2017.pdf?rev=B87B
No mention that an offensive player has to touch it first.  Not sure why some refs believe it has to be touched by an offensive player first.  Maybe different league rules?


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## Socal United (Jul 9, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Various leagues/tournaments adapt different interpretations of the rules. The trick is to always read competition rules. They are not always the same. The referee may have a game in the morning that interprets the rule one way and another game in the afternoon that interprets it another way, hence the need for referees to always read competition rules for each gaming circuit prior to the game.


You are exactly right but that is pie in the sky.  I now carry a copy of the rules with me at each tournament, I have spent more time this summer explaining the rules to the refs than ever before.  I think one issue is many of the smaller tournaments don't have a lead person there to make sure that they have read the rules, so they just put their yellow shirt on and ref.  It is very important as I don't think I have been in two tournaments with the same rules.


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## Surfref (Jul 9, 2017)

Socal United said:


> You are exactly right but that is pie in the sky.  I now carry a copy of the rules with me at each tournament, I have spent more time this summer explaining the rules to the refs than ever before.  I think one issue is many of the smaller tournaments don't have a lead person there to make sure that they have read the rules, so they just put their yellow shirt on and ref.  It is very important as I don't think I have been in two tournaments with the same rules.


I have worked three tournaments (OC, SD and Chino areas) this year where the rules were vague and the field marshals could not clarify.  I also attended three referee training sessions in May and all three put out similar but different information.  It is not always the referee's fault.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 9, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I have worked three tournaments (OC, SD and Chino areas) this year where the rules were vague and the field marshals could not clarify.  I also attended three referee training sessions in May and all three put out similar but different information.  It is not always the referee's fault.


Did the governing bodies not put out a clear rule like Presidio did? And seeing how Presidio's handout is actually from Cal South, shouldn't all of us referees of games in OC, SD and Chino follow the same rule unless told otherwise in writing at a specific tournament?


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## Surfref (Jul 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Did the governing bodies not put out a clear rule like Presidio did? And seeing how Presidio's handout is actually from Cal South, shouldn't all of us referees of games in OC, SD and Chino follow the same rule unless told otherwise in writing at a specific tournament?


Tournaments can modify the rules.  All three had different rules.


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## coachrefparent (Jul 9, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Tournaments can modify the rules.  All three had different rules.


I've seen tournaments modify Cal South rules, but rarely. That's crazy that they all communicated rules that contradicted Cal South. I've been in the same boat where assignors don't intervene and just point us to the rules posted on the website which are often outdated. Definitely a lot of disconnect in this "system."


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## soccerchauffer33 (Jul 10, 2017)

I am unclear about the off sides. So the BOL is now the new off sides line for the entire game and not just for the change of possession? If someone can help me out I would appreciate the clarification.


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## MWN (Jul 11, 2017)

soccerchauffer33 said:


> I am unclear about the off sides. So the BOL is now the new off sides line for the entire game and not just for the change of possession? If someone can help me out I would appreciate the clarification.


I don't know what you mean about "change of possession."  If a player is in an offside position, but not impacting the play then there is no foul.  Once a player in an offside position impacts the play, then a foul can be called, unless the Referee deems the player impact to be trifling and/or there is no negative impact (e.g. a ball is played to the striker in an offside position over the top drawing the defender to the player, but the ball bounces to the GK before the striker can touch the ball).  Players cannot be in an offside position until they cross the half line.  With the 7v7 and the BOL, the modification is players cannot be in an offside position until they cross the other team's BOL.

One of the biggest problems for spectators is understanding that just because a player is in an offside position, doesn't mean "offside" will be called UNLESS that player is involved in the play.  Thus, offside occurs when a player is:

In the opposition’s half (or beyond the oppositions BOL for 7v7).


Interfering with play (that is, he’s part of the attacking move).


Interfering with an opponent (that is, he’s preventing the opponent from defending against the attacking move).


Gaining any advantage by being in that position.

Note, however, a player can’t be offside from a goal kick, throw in, or corner.


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## watfly (Jul 11, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I've seen tournaments modify Cal South rules, but rarely.


I don't know about rarely, maybe it depends on the age group, but at 07 our first two tourneys had modified rules, the first allowed heading and the 2nd prohibited punts over the midline.  In the 1st tourney only 1 of our 3 referee teams was aware of the allowed heading (ie read the rules of the tourney).  2nd tourney they all were aware of the limited punts.  Last year most tournaments we played in had some form of modification to Calsouth rules and the knowledge of these by the refs was hit or miss.  Our next two tourneys look like no modifications to the rules.


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## soccerchauffer33 (Jul 11, 2017)

Thanks for the help! So the center i
line for 7v7 is no longer relevant for off sides. The BOL is the "new center line"


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## MWN (Jul 11, 2017)

soccerchauffer33 said:


> Thanks for the help! So the center i
> line for 7v7 is no longer relevant for off sides. The BOL is the "new center line"


Yes, unless you played in SCDSL last year in which case, the BOL change to offside was abandoned in week 2 or 3 via a directive, but not updated in the rules, which caused parents' and coaches' heads to explode.


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## soccerchauffer33 (Jul 11, 2017)

All this does is further confuse players who are trying to grasp off sides at a young age. Now off sides position is no longer the center line but the BOL line and in a few years the BOL disappears and its now the center line.


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## MWN (Jul 11, 2017)

soccerchauffer33 said:


> All this does is further confuse players who are trying to grasp off sides at a young age. Now off sides position is no longer the center line but the BOL line and in a few years the BOL disappears and its now the center line.


Trust me, the will figure it out very quickly.


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## Surfref (Jul 11, 2017)

soccerchauffer33 said:


> I am unclear about the off sides. So the BOL is now the new off sides line for the entire game and not just for the change of possession? If someone can help me out I would appreciate the clarification.


Most of these 7v7 games will be officiated by a single referee.  Having recently worked these 7v7 games I can honestly tell you that sometimes it is a guessing game as to whether the player was onside or offside.  If in doubt, don't call it.  It will be even more difficult if there is not a line drawn on the field and only cones setup on the sidelines.  I guess that is why scores are not kept at those younger ages.


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## soccerchauffer33 (Jul 11, 2017)

I can understand the build in line, just not moving the off sides line.


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## MWN (Jul 11, 2017)

soccerchauffer33 said:


> I can understand the build in line, just not moving the off sides line.


Let me explain.  The purpose of the changes are to spread out play and give the kids and chance to touch the ball.  The 7v7's tend to be fresh off of rec playing "bunch ball."  Indeed, the younger 7v7's still see a lot of bunch ball.  The goal here is to spread them out.  By moving the offside line from 1/2 to 3/4's of the field, we encourage forwards to push up more, thus, spreading out the field.  The hope is these uLittles will have more time to make decisions and pass the ball around, which aids in development.  Pushing the line up also neutralizes speed and rewards good first touches and passing.


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## umeweall (Dec 11, 2017)

The Mandatory start of the US Soccer, Player Development Initiative (PDI) caused many some rule studying time.  The rules surrounding the Buildout line were in a continual state of confusion for the majority of the season in my area.  This covered the gamut of referees, coaches, parents, AND league officials.  One of the items that was plainly evident was that there had been no advance 'education' of the referees, or coaches, and little to no information given to parents at initial player registration.  Added to the quagmire was that all groups followed the rules the same way.  For a referee working games in multiple league/association/club assignments, it created confusion for them.  For those paying close attention, they would have noticed that the US Soccer PDI document was issued THREE times, between Feb., 2017, and Oct. 2017.  He document had subtle changes in it, for the mandatory rules.  I will guarantee that there will be additional changes, before the next Fall season.  This means that in each group, someone will need to stay on top of what is happening, to inform all parties.

For anyone interested, I have information on the PDI & small sided games, on my website:

For coaches:                 http://www.yatahoy.com/coaches-fyi-2/
For Just PDI Info.:     http://www.yatahoy.com/us-soccer-player-development-initiative-small-sided-games-buildout-line/


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## Surfref (Dec 12, 2017)

I refereed a few 7v7 games last summer and two games the first weekend of the fall season.  Those games were a nightmare.  The coaches, players and parents did not know the rules and the players were confused.  This past Sunday I worked three 7v7 tournament finals.  Everyone knew the rules.  The players immediately retreated behind the buildout line and the keepers knew how to distribute the ball.  The players even spread out and used the entire field.  Hopefully US Soccer and Cal South do not tweak the rules again.


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## espola (Dec 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I refereed a few 7v7 games last summer and two games the first weekend of the fall season.  Those games were a nightmare.  The coaches, players and parents did not know the rules and the players were confused.  This past Sunday I worked three 7v7 tournament finals.  Everyone knew the rules.  The players immediately retreated behind the buildout line and the keepers knew how to distribute the ball.  The players even spread out and used the entire field.  Hopefully US Soccer and Cal South do not tweak the rules again.


I propose an "expert" division for the best teams in 7v7 - dump all the buildout line and heading rules if they can show they already know how to play soccer.


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I refereed a few 7v7 games last summer and two games the first weekend of the fall season.  Those games were a nightmare.  The coaches, players and parents did not know the rules and the players were confused.  This past Sunday I worked three 7v7 tournament finals.  Everyone knew the rules.  The players immediately retreated behind the buildout line and the keepers knew how to distribute the ball.  The players even spread out and used the entire field.  Hopefully US Soccer and Cal South do not tweak the rules again.


One of the things that I have seen is that some are not marking their fields properly for the buildout line.  The line ends up closer to the half line, or closer to the penalty area line.  This defeats the purpose of the buildout line.  In the case where it is closer to the penalty area line, it gives extra attacking space to opponents and is unfair to the goalkeeper/defenders.  As for the rules, the initial shock will wear off, but there will always be the on-going challenge of educating new referees on the rules (which will be easier for them, as they will not have the 'old way' stuck in their head ), new coaches, and parents.  Educating the parents is absolutely necessary to ensure that they are in tune with the game, and keeping them off the referees back.  Coaches/parents who played in the 'day', often transpose their playing rules to the game of today.  Things have changed.


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## MWN (Dec 12, 2017)

espola said:


> I propose an "expert" division for the best teams in 7v7 - dump all the buildout line and heading rules if they can show they already know how to play soccer.


No heading is a USSF and USYS mandate pursuant to the terms of settling the heading lawsuit.  Not changing anytime.

The BOL can be changed, but you will have teams excluded or playing with a disadvantage during regional competition (State Cup).


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## espola (Dec 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> No heading is a USSF and USYS mandate pursuant to the terms of settling the heading lawsuit.  Not changing anytime.
> 
> The BOL can be changed, but you will have teams excluded or playing with a disadvantage during regional competition (State Cup).


USSF is not the universe.  The heading lawsuit is a farce, by the way.


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## espola (Dec 12, 2017)

umeweall said:


> One of the things that I have seen is that some are not marking their fields properly for the buildout line.  The line ends up closer to the half line, or closer to the penalty area line.  This defeats the purpose of the buildout line.  In the case where it is closer to the penalty area line, it gives extra attacking space to opponents and is unfair to the goalkeeper/defenders.  As for the rules, the initial shock will wear off, but there will always be the on-going challenge of educating new referees on the rules (which will be easier for them, as they will not have the 'old way' stuck in their head ), new coaches, and parents.  Educating the parents is absolutely necessary to ensure that they are in tune with the game, and keeping them off the referees back.  Coaches/parents who played in the 'day', often transpose their playing rules to the game of today.  Things have changed.


What is the purpose of the buildout line?  The result of whatever that purpose is is that skillful players and teams must play down to the level of those who can't.  I don't see how that fits on the path to developing the best players into better players.


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## SageMajor (Dec 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Most of these 7v7 games will be officiated by a single referee.  Having recently worked these 7v7 games I can honestly tell you that sometimes it is a guessing game as to whether the player was onside or offside.  If in doubt, don't call it.  It will be even more difficult if there is not a line drawn on the field and only cones setup on the sidelines.  I guess that is why scores are not kept at those younger ages.



I run more doing a center on a single 7v7 than I do on a full field olders game, and much of it is sprinting trying to be in position to actually call offside.   In my sons games this weekend 2 refs never left the center circle which meant that they could not even see the end line to call when the ball was out of bounds.


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

SageMajor said:


> I run more doing a center on a single 7v7 than I do on a full field olders game, and much of it is sprinting trying to be in position to actually call offside.   In my sons games this weekend 2 refs never left the center circle which meant that they could not even see the end line to call when the ball was out of bounds.


The BO line also causes an AR to have to pay more attention to their offside positioning/watching.  Some coaches get cute and station a player right at the BO line.  For an AR, staying with '2nd to last', could mean that they are further away.  Since the player is not offside, when standing inside of the BO line, a hard kicked ball to them gives an immediate direct goal attack.  The question becomes did they break the plane of the BO line, before receiving the ball.  The AR would possibly have to run like crazy to get back.


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

Have to issue an apology to some one from Irvine.  They attempted to access the sites that I had previously listed, for PDI information, and were denied access to the site.  They were coming from a 'Cox' service provider.  I had previously blocked all of Cox, due to a number of 'bad apples' that had attempted access, using improper methods.  I have opened it back up to Cox subscribers.


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## baldref (Dec 12, 2017)

umeweall said:


> The BO line also causes an AR to have to pay more attention to their offside positioning/watching.  Some coaches get cute and station a player right at the BO line.  For an AR, staying with '2nd to last', could mean that they are further away.  Since the player is not offside, when standing inside of the BO line, a hard kicked ball to them gives an immediate direct goal attack.  The question becomes did they break the plane of the BO line, before receiving the ball.  The AR would possibly have to run like crazy to get back.


A 7v7 game shouldn’t have an AR at all
The fields are so small any competent referee can over it solo. 
I did a number of these games this season and had no trouble with any of them
Some of the most fun games


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## Mystery Train (Dec 12, 2017)

espola said:


> What is the purpose of the buildout line?  The result of whatever that purpose is is that skillful players and teams must play down to the level of those who can't.  I don't see how that fits on the path to developing the best players into better players.


From my understanding, the build-out line was put in to train teams to have their keepers play the ball to their defenders and then have the defenders move the ball up the field and to eliminate the strategy of putting the kid with the biggest kick as your keeper and letting him boot it or punt it to the other team's penalty area. 

 I can't believe I'm going to say it, but I am going to eat some crow and admit that I think the build-out line actually accomplished it's "purpose" in the instance of my son's AYSO league play.   In the beginning it was a little rough on everyone; refs, coaches, parents, players.  But by the end of the season, my kid's U10 team (and the majority of their opponents) were playing the ball to the feet of their defenders and working the ball up the side of the field with small passes and ball skills.  This was a big change from how the games of my now 15 year old looked when she was in U10.  The kids got it pretty quickly, the league had the fields marked uniformly at every location, and the refs (myself included) got a handle on it within 2-3 games.  Most of the coaches dealt with it the same way, which was to position one defender near the end line outside the box, and have the keeper roll or on goal kicks pass to them, they would have the mid-fielder waiting near the BOL and when the forwards ran to the defender who had the ball, they would pass it up the line to the midfielder.  In the games where the teams were doing this, the games were amazingly attractive to watch, with action going end to end.  It tended to curb coaching tactics like putting your weakest players as defenders and your fast ball handlers as forwards.  Our team had lots of success by putting one of the most skilled players as a defender because he could get the ball out of our own half with ease and join the attack.  Not saying it was perfect, as some coaches would just transfer the "big kick" strategy to the defender who gets it from the keeper, but I was impressed with the results.  And I was a real skeptic at first.


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## Mystery Train (Dec 12, 2017)

However, officiating and teaching the offside rule to U10 players, parents and volunteer refs (already one of the least understood rules in sports) was definitely made more complicated by the addition of the BOL.   In practice, it did not result in many disagreements from the sideline because the parents were too befuddled by the rule to argue with you.   Hell, if I made a bad call on the direction of a throw-in I could just say "build out line" and everyone would just shrug and shut up.  LOL


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Did the governing bodies not put out a clear rule like Presidio did? And seeing how Presidio's handout is actually from Cal South, shouldn't all of us referees of games in OC, SD and Chino follow the same rule unless told otherwise in writing at a specific tournament?


The problem is that tournament officials sometimes 'interpret' the rules in different fashions, what may be 'clear' to officials at one tournament may not be the same at another tournament.  This is due to the manner in which some read, the PDI documents.  Sometimes people may modify the rules, to suit the way they see things.  The referee then gets the raw stick on this, as they have to explain to teams as to why the rules dictated by US Soccer are not being precisely followed.  I saw recently, at a tournament, where the published rules had been followed for all games, for half a day.  A coach then talked the presiding tournament director into 'modifying' a rule, which they stated was 'unclear'--to THEM.  This meant that the teams in the morning played under the pre-tournament issued rules.  They they came back for their afternoon games and the rules were different.  This caused anxiety and confusion for the afternoon referees, the coaches, and the players.   The coaches took their displeasure out on the referees.


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> From my understanding, the build-out line was put in to train teams to have their keepers play the ball to their defenders and then have the defenders move the ball up the field and to eliminate the strategy of putting the kid with the biggest kick as your keeper and letting him boot it or punt it to the other team's penalty area.
> 
> I can't believe I'm going to say it, but I am going to eat some crow and admit that I think the build-out line actually accomplished it's "purpose" in the instance of my son's AYSO league play.   In the beginning it was a little rough on everyone; refs, coaches, parents, players.  But by the end of the season, my kid's U10 team (and the majority of their opponents) were playing the ball to the feet of their defenders and working the ball up the side of the field with small passes and ball skills.  This was a big change from how the games of my now 15 year old looked when she was in U10.  The kids got it pretty quickly, the league had the fields marked uniformly at every location, and the refs (myself included) got a handle on it within 2-3 games.  Most of the coaches dealt with it the same way, which was to position one defender near the end line outside the box, and have the keeper roll or on goal kicks pass to them, they would have the mid-fielder waiting near the BOL and when the forwards ran to the defender who had the ball, they would pass it up the line to the midfielder.  In the games where the teams were doing this, the games were amazingly attractive to watch, with action going end to end.  It tended to curb coaching tactics like putting your weakest players as defenders and your fast ball handlers as forwards.  Our team had lots of success by putting one of the most skilled players as a defender because he could get the ball out of our own half with ease and join the attack.  Not saying it was perfect, as some coaches would just transfer the "big kick" strategy to the defender who gets it from the keeper, but I was impressed with the results.  And I was a real skeptic at first.


Good for you guys.  You achieved what the PDI was meant to do, improve ball handling skills, both defensively & offensively!!  It can be a difficult transition for people that have followed soccer for a while, who are often heard yelling 'just let them play'.


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## umeweall (Dec 12, 2017)

umeweall said:


> Good for you guys.  You achieved what the PDI was meant to do, improve ball handling skills, both defensively & offensively!!  It can be a difficult transition for people that have followed soccer for a while, who are often heard yelling 'just let them play'.


It is going to be a while before a Spring season starts, and before Fall season comes back around.  The following item is from my website, and will help to tickle your remembrance of PDI play, when those thoughts need reviving:

http://www.yatahoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Build-Out-Line-Manual-Jan-2017.pdf


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## umeweall (Dec 13, 2017)

SageMajor said:


> I run more doing a center on a single 7v7 than I do on a full field olders game, and much of it is sprinting trying to be in position to actually call offside.   In my sons games this weekend 2 refs never left the center circle which meant that they could not even see the end line to call when the ball was out of bounds.


I have seen that happen before and it is not a good sight.


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## Surfref (Dec 13, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> However, officiating and teaching the offside rule to U10 players, parents and volunteer refs (already one of the least understood rules in sports) was definitely made more complicated by the addition of the BOL.   In practice, it did not result in many disagreements from the sideline because the parents were too befuddled by the rule to argue with you.   Hell, if I made a bad call on the direction of a throw-in I could just say "build out line" and everyone would just shrug and shut up.  LOL


There is nothing complicated about Law 11 (offside).  The BOL does not make it anymore difficult.


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## watfly (Dec 13, 2017)

Surfref said:


> There is nothing complicated about Law 11 (offside).


I would generally agree with this; however, the "new" rule of  "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball is not considered to have gained an advantage." has now added the element of intent to the determination of offside.  While maybe not complicated, it does complicate any rule when intent has to be determined as opposed to a purely objective measure like the offside rule had been in the past.  Some ref's aren't even aware of this rule and certainly fewer coaches and players know about it.  While the situation doesn't arise very often it's rare when a ref doesn't call an offside in this situation...present company excluded, of course.


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## Mystery Train (Dec 13, 2017)

Surfref said:


> There is nothing complicated about Law 11 (offside).  The BOL does not make it anymore difficult.


Note that I said offside is not well understood.  Didn't say the rule itself is complicated.  As for whether or not the BOL makes it more difficult to teach or officiate, it moved/changed the criteria of an already poorly understood rule, so there were a lot of people who got confused.  Glad you weren't one of them.  I happen to think it works ok.


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## GunninGopher (Dec 13, 2017)

I did a few 7v7's for the first time this year at Presidio cup. The only thing that was remaining to be mis-understood was the keeper drop kick. I explained to both teams prior to the game that I didn't want them bouncing it and kicking it into the air. I wanted the ball on the ground. I know this was something that has been a problem with inconsistent enforcement, so I got clarification from the field marshall about it prior to the match (a Presidio board member).

A player did it, even after a verbal reminder during the match, and the IFK was enforced on the "18". Coach got the normal bent out of shape but understood when I reminded him. I asked the coach to control one of his ignorant parents, and that happened, too.

Can we please quit complaining about all the changes that have happened over the last 2 seasons? It is over. It is easy to understand and enforce. If someone doesn't get it, they are probably an adult, because the kids don't seem to be bothered by it.

Why even dig up this old thread?


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## espola (Dec 13, 2017)

GunninGopher said:


> I did a few 7v7's for the first time this year at Presidio cup. The only thing that was remaining to be mis-understood was the keeper drop kick. I explained to both teams prior to the game that I didn't want them bouncing it and kicking it into the air. I wanted the ball on the ground. I know this was something that has been a problem with inconsistent enforcement, so I got clarification from the field marshall about it prior to the match (a Presidio board member).
> 
> A player did it, even after a verbal reminder during the match, and the IFK was enforced on the "18". Coach got the normal bent out of shape but understood when I reminded him. I asked the coach to control one of his ignorant parents, and that happened, too.
> 
> ...


If you are going to just make up your own rules, I hope you tell the players about it before the game.


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## fantasyfutbol (Dec 13, 2017)

MWN said:


> I don't know what you mean about "change of possession."  If a player is in an offside position, but not impacting the play then there is no foul.  Once a player in an offside position impacts the play, then a foul can be called, unless the Referee deems the player impact to be trifling and/or there is no negative impact (e.g. a ball is played to the striker in an offside position over the top drawing the defender to the player, but the ball bounces to the GK before the striker can touch the ball).  Players cannot be in an offside position until they cross the half line.  With the 7v7 and the BOL, the modification is players cannot be in an offside position until they cross the other team's BOL.
> 
> One of the biggest problems for spectators is understanding that just because a player is in an offside position, doesn't mean "offside" will be called UNLESS that player is involved in the play.  Thus, offside occurs when a player is:
> 
> ...


I have witnessed Presidio League games where the player was behind the line, a teammate passed the ball, the ball rolls across the build out line, the player that was behind the build out line then crosses the build out line and takes a first touch on the opponents side of the build out line.  The referees called this offside several times during the game.  The explanation was that the player had to receive the ball behind the build out line.  

That was very confusing for a young player who was taught to be onside until a teammate passes the ball into space.  Now the U little player needs to be mindful of two variations of offside?  This can't be right...anyone know?


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## baldref (Dec 13, 2017)

fantasyfutbol said:


> I have witnessed Presidio League games where the player was behind the line, a teammate passed the ball, the ball rolls across the build out line, the player that was behind the build out line then crosses the build out line and takes a first touch on the opponents side of the build out line.  The referees called this offside several times during the game.  The explanation was that the player had to receive the ball behind the build out line.
> 
> That was very confusing for a young player who was taught to be onside until a teammate passes the ball into space.  Now the U little player needs to be mindful of two variations of offside?  This can't be right...anyone know?


It’s not right


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## baldref (Dec 13, 2017)

espola said:


> If you are going to just make up your own rules, I hope you tell the players about it before the game.


Dementia post


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## watfly (Dec 14, 2017)

GunninGopher said:


> Can we please quit complaining about all the changes that have happened over the last 2 seasons? It is over. It is easy to understand and enforce. If someone doesn't get it, they are probably an adult, because the kids don't seem to be bothered by it.
> 
> Why even dig up this old thread?


Yes there are some that just don't like the BOL and are going to complain regardless and just need to get over it.  However, there are those that are genuinely frustrated by the continued inconsistent application of the elements of the BOL, or are just seeking clarity between actual rule vs. game day application.  The two primary elements I see misapplied are 1) some refs believe that the ball is not in play until an offensive player touches the ball, and not when the keeper releases the ball (in fact, a ref on this very thread mistates this concept) and  2)  refs that will not allow the keeper to release the ball until all the defenders are behind the buildout line.  Admittedly, SCDSL in their initial rollout last year did modify the rules from the PDI, but corrected them shortly thereafter.  However, Calsouth has been consistent from the start.

Whether you and I think this BOL rules are easy to understand and straightforward is irrelevant,  when the reality is that some refs continue to misunderstand the rules.


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## GunninGopher (Dec 15, 2017)

espola said:


> If you are going to just make up your own rules, I hope you tell the players about it before the game.


I'll take the instructions I got from both Presidio and Referee Association board members as a higher authority than a snide internet comment.

And to answer your specific comment, the post says that I told the teams prior to the match and reminded them during it about how it was to be enforced.

I can't believe I took the bait.


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## umeweall (Dec 16, 2017)

watfly said:


> Yes there are some that just don't like the BOL and are going to complain regardless and just need to get over it.  However, there are those that are genuinely frustrated by the continued inconsistent application of the elements of the BOL, or are just seeking clarity between actual rule vs. game day application.  The two primary elements I see misapplied are 1) some refs believe that the ball is not in play until an offensive player touches the ball, and not when the keeper releases the ball (in fact, a ref on this very thread mistates this concept) and  2)  refs that will not allow the keeper to release the ball until all the defenders are behind the buildout line.  Admittedly, SCDSL in their initial rollout last year did modify the rules from the PDI, but corrected them shortly thereafter.  However, Calsouth has been consistent from the start.
> 
> Whether you and I think this BOL rules are easy to understand and straightforward is irrelevant,  when the reality is that some refs continue to misunderstand the rules.


I agree that people need to 'get over it' and move forward.


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