# Soccer gave away the golden goose to other sports at high school



## blam (Dec 18, 2021)

Once upon a time, many many years ago, I was at Oceanside for a soccer tournament for the very first time. It was a sunny Saturday morning. The parking lots were filled. So many American kids were playing soccer. And I thought to myself, man...if this continues, soccer will be the number 1 sport in America in less than 20 years...so many kids love soccer and are actually playing it. Compare that to American football where there just aren't many players playing football. Looks like football has a bleak future..I envisioned American football on life support....the same way I saw tennis.

Many years passed and then my kids went to high school. 

Then came the first stab...Soccer at high school is a winter sport.

Soccer at high school is a winter sport!!!!???? 
That means spectators have to stand in the freezing cold? 
How do you expect marching bands to come to the games to cheer the local soccer team in the winter? 
How do you expect cheerleaders to come and cheer on the soccer team? 
How do you expect parents to come cheer their kids? Wrapped in blankets???? And yes! I saw parents coming wrapped in blankets!

The next stab came when one day, my kids who never showed any interest in American football said they were going to watch their high school team play football. Obviously they were going for the social aspects of it. Neither of them had watched a football game on TV (not even superbowl) or shown any interest when they were young. At school, marching bands were there, cheerleaders were there, the crowds were there....like a phoenix rising from the ashes, American football is back!

The question then is what happened to soccer? Why did it get relegated? It got killed the instance it became a winter sport. Soccer needs to be a fall sport or a spring sport. We need to bring on the marching bands, the cheerleaders and the crowds to the games. There needs to be more pom pom. 

Some of you may think its impossible but take a bigger picture. In the rest of the world, we also have a game very similar to American football called rugby. And when it comes to soccer vs rugby, soccer wins by a HUGE margin.


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## LouSag (Dec 18, 2021)

blam said:


> Once upon a time, many many years ago, I was at Oceanside for a soccer tournament for the very first time. It was a sunny Saturday morning. The parking lots were filled. So many American kids were playing soccer. And I thought to myself, man...if this continues, soccer will be the number 1 sport in America in less than 20 years...so many kids love soccer and are actually playing it. Compare that to American football where there just aren't many players playing football. Looks like football has a bleak future..I envisioned American football on life support....the same way I saw tennis.
> 
> Many years passed and then my kids went to high school.
> 
> ...


Have you ever watched a HS soccer game…the quality of play is awful.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Have you ever watched a HS soccer game…the quality of play is awful.


I have watched HS Soccer for four years.  First off, the quality of play is different for each league.  Awful is a complete put down on all the players who play HSS.  Secondly and lastly, your post is awful!!!  Hey Blam, this happens every year about HSS so get used to it.  I love watching kids play for their HS team and yes, Winter soccer is lame!!!


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

blam said:


> Once upon a time, many many years ago, I was at Oceanside for a soccer tournament for the very first time. It was a sunny Saturday morning. The parking lots were filled. So many American kids were playing soccer. And I thought to myself, man...if this continues, soccer will be the number 1 sport in America in less than 20 years...so many kids love soccer and are actually playing it. Compare that to American football where there just aren't many players playing football. Looks like football has a bleak future..I envisioned American football on life support....the same way I saw tennis.
> 
> Many years passed and then my kids went to high school.
> 
> ...


I don’t really know how you move it. the issue isn’t getting athletes (soccer right now is up against basketball). The main issue is field space.  In fall the football players have it. In the spring it’s lacrosse (which shares with track and field). You could switch lacrosse and soccer, but that runs up against some powerful interest groups since lacrosse is an upper middle class sport that gets ivy looks 

As to the quality of soccer it’s always going to remain poor in schools while the quality is dispersed.  You won’t have it aggregated unless college recruiting comes to the high schools. But then like football you would have people looking for scholarships shop the best schools. That said, even poor football schools enjoy their pomp and circumstance…they just accept they are in the ayso of football for the fun of it


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I don’t really know how you move it. the issue isn’t getting athletes (soccer right now is up against basketball). The main issue is field space.  In fall the football players have it. In the spring it’s lacrosse (which shares with track and field). You could switch lacrosse and soccer, but that runs up against some powerful interest groups since lacrosse is an upper middle class sport that gets ivy looks
> 
> As to the quality of soccer it’s always going to remain poor in schools while the quality is dispersed.  You won’t have it aggregated unless college recruiting comes to the high schools. But then like football you would have people looking for scholarships shop the best schools. That said, even poor football schools enjoy their pomp and circumstance…they just accept they are in the ayso of football for the fun of it


Ps “San Dimas High School Football rules!”


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> *As to the quality of soccer it’s always going to remain poor in schools while the quality is dispersed. *


Your starting to sound a lot like Debbie Downer if I were to be honest with you Grace T.


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

crush said:


> Your starting to sound a lot like Debbie Downer if I were to be honest with you Grace T.


I am, arent I?!? 

Ps never hire someone who went to law school for your great idea project. Law school teaches you to find all the problems in things. They’ll wreck it before it’s off the launch pad. If we had lawyers on the moon project we’d still be arguing over whether it’s even a good idea to go.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I am, arent I?!?
> 
> Ps never hire someone who went to law school for your great idea project. Law school teaches you to find all the problems in things. They’ll wreck it before it’s off the launch pad. If we had lawyers on the moon project we’d still be arguing over whether it’s even a good idea to go.


Take this test and I'll give you some truth about yourself.  I am 100% the ideas guy.  I gave one asshole a million dollar ideas and he cut my legs.  His reason?  He said I only came up with the ideas and not much use after that.









						The Enneagram Personality Test
					

Which of the 9 Enneagram types fits you best? This personality test can help you to discover where you fit in among the 9 Enneagram personality types.




					www.truity.com


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## dk_b (Dec 19, 2021)

The OP is really on to something. And indirectly related to Grace T’s point, we might as well jettison the urban schools like the one my kids attend. I mean, with 6 soccer teams (frosh, JV and varsity on for girls and boys) and two football teams but only one field (not uncommon in a setting like ours), we don’t need to worry about THOSE folks gumming up our beloved Beautiful Game, right?

As I’ve said many times on this board, HS soccer is a winter sport for a small minority of states - 5 or 6 - while the rest play in a near even split between fall and spring. Might want to study how that goes for them and make sure you look at the schools in Chicago or Philly or Boston in addition to suburbs and other places with more space and the ability to accommodate all the teams that need to practice.

over the years, my kids have played HS soccer in front of big crowds and no crowds. Have played teams with rosters full of players who have or will go on to play college and others who come out to play because they want an activity to feel like HS student for a couple of non-school hours each day (instead of going to jobs, taking care of sibs, grans, etc).  Strong players don’t play for the soccer but for the intangibles with some soccer mixed in. Among my older daughter’s club teammates who played HS soccer and are now playing in college (most of them), I have never heard regrets about having made the choice to play HS (and some were on teams that barely won a game). That’s true for my kid - she loved the experience. And there is no way our HS could support its sports program without soccer continuing to be in winter. And our school is not alone. And even if it were moved, as it is in most other states, little of the OP’s lament would be changed.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

dk_b said:


> The OP is really on to something. And indirectly related to Grace T’s point, we might as well jettison the urban schools like the one my kids attend. I mean, with 6 soccer teams (frosh, JV and varsity on for girls and boys) and two football teams but only one field (not uncommon in a setting like ours), we don’t need to worry about THOSE folks gumming up our beloved Beautiful Game, right?
> 
> As I’ve said many times on this board, HS soccer is a winter sport for a small minority of states - 5 or 6 - while the rest play in a near even split between fall and spring. Might want to study how that goes for them and make sure you look at the schools in Chicago or Philly or Boston in addition to suburbs and other places with more space and the ability to accommodate all the teams that need to practice.
> 
> over the years, my kids have played HS soccer in front of big crowds and no crowds. Have played teams with rosters full of players who have or will go on to play college and others who come out to play because they want an activity to feel like HS student for a couple of non-school hours each day (instead of going to jobs, taking care of sibs, grans, etc).  Strong players don’t play for the soccer but for the intangibles with some soccer mixed in. Among my older daughter’s club teammates who played HS soccer and are now playing in college (most of them), I have never heard regrets about having made the choice to play HS (and some were on teams that barely won a game). That’s true for my kid - she loved the experience. And there is no way our HS could support its sports program without soccer continuing to be in winter. And our school is not alone. And even if it were moved, as it is in most other states, little of the OP’s lament would be changed.


Thank God it wasn't awful for your dds career.  This crowd of parents have brainwashed with so much Kool Aid from coaches who teach parents that HSS is awful!  Some dads also have their hands in the club soccer money jar.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 19, 2021)

The easy fix for making soccer more appealing to HS is to do Futsal on the indoor basketball courts against other schools. 

And have cheerleaders


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> The easy fix for making soccer more appealing to HS is to do Futsal on the indoor basketball courts against other schools.
> 
> And have cheerleaders


I like that idea idea 100% as a add on to bringing soccer back to the high schools as a sport for all.  We need to share the world's #1 sport and hss is a place where it is free to share ((minus spirit pack and some fun times to raise sum funds for the program from local businesses)).  Everyone in the schools boundaries can tryout for the team.  I have some super great ideas regarding how travel soccer and HSS can play and work together.  I really see a day when no dad will have to come on a youth soccer board and shout to the masses how "awful" HSS is and how no one passes the rock in hss.  We can fix this you guys and come together.  BTW, I was at a showcase and not all the soccer was elite, just saying.  Let's be fair.  I did see some really great soccer players and saw teams all fired up for the chance to play in front of college coaches.  I also see some great HSS teams that pass from the back and move the ball around, like in the movie Hoosiers and i also see some teams that play kickball and are way to physical.  The refs need to make yellow cards a norm until somepne gets red and more reds and then quits.


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> The easy fix for making soccer more appealing to HS is to do Futsal on the indoor basketball courts against other schools.
> 
> And have cheerleaders


The problem with soccer/futsal and cheer (and it’s the same for basketball) is that it’s a lot harder to structure the cheers.  You know in football when your side is on offense and when you need to cheer then on. You know when there’s a break in play and can do your own thing to impress the crowd.  Basketball at least has the time outs and quarter breaks. It’s why some schools use the dance teams for basketball: gives you 3-4 minutes to execute 3-4 dance routines. The cheerleaders don’t like showing up just to Pom Pom wave.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> *The problem *with soccer/futsal and cheer (and it’s the same for basketball) is that it’s a lot harder to structure the cheers.  You know in football when your side is on offense and when you need to cheer then on. You know when there’s a break in play and can do your own thing to impress the crowd.  Basketball at least has the time outs and quarter breaks. It’s why some schools use the dance teams for basketball: gives you 3-4 minutes to execute 3-4 dance routines. *The cheerleaders don’t like showing up *just to Pom Pom wave.


Not only have you become "Debbie Downer" and "Negative Nancy", you are now sounding like "Problem Penny" who doesn want to solve the problems of today?  Have you quit?  Are you throwing in the towel at the 11th hour?


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with soccer/futsal and cheer (and it’s the same for basketball) is that it’s a lot harder to structure the cheers.  You know in football when your side is on offense and when you need to cheer then on. You know when there’s a break in play and can do your own thing to impress the crowd.  Basketball at least has the time outs and quarter breaks. It’s why some schools use the dance teams for basketball: gives you 3-4 minutes to execute 3-4 dance routines. The cheerleaders don’t like showing up just to Pom Pom wave.


It's not really about having a perfect cheer. 

Its about getting the girls to watch the boys play. The more you can involve (players, cheerleaders, etc) the more will show up to cheer on their team.

Also just to make things crazy they should let girls play on boys teams. But every goal a girl scores is worth 2.


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> It's not really about having a perfect cheer.
> 
> Its about getting the girls to watch the boys play. The more you can involve (players, cheerleaders, etc) the more will show up to cheer on their team.
> 
> Also just to make things crazy they should let girls play on boys teams. But every goal a girl scores is worth 2.


Excellent ideas bro.  Co-ed Futsal and maybe even co-ed soccer on the fields?  I love these outside of the box ideas.  Male GK one half and female GK another half.  5 girls and five boys.  This would be an amazing Friday Night Lights.  One game a week a week for 10 weeks and then CIF CO-Ed soccer playoffs.


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

crush said:


> Not only have you become "Debbie Downer" and "Negative Nancy", you are now sounding like "Problem Penny" who doesn want to solve the problems of today?  Have you quit?  Are you throwing in the towel at the 11th hour?


Wawa
Sometimes the answer to “something must be done” is nothing. 


Carlsbad7 said:


> It's not really about having a perfect cheer.
> 
> Its about getting the girls to watch the boys play. The more you can involve (players, cheerleaders, etc) the more will show up to cheer on their team.
> 
> Also just to make things crazy they should let girls play on boys teams. But every goal a girl scores is worth 2.


For the girls it is about the perfect cheer. It’s a sport to then. They aren’t just ornaments but athletes. Your idea would work but you’d have to change futsal to make it work…give lots of time outs. The purists will hate it and ask why we Americans are changing the sport for the same of the cheerleaders but if participation is the goal give room to participate.


crush said:


> Excellent ideas bro.  Co-ed Futsal and maybe even co-ed soccer on the fields?  I love these outside of the box ideas.  Male GK one half and female GK another half.  5 girls and five boys.  This would be an amazing Friday Night Lights.  One game a week a week for 10 weeks and then CIF CO-Ed soccer playoffs.


This only works if you have the male keeper play with the girls and the female keeper play with the boys.   While there are female keepers that can rock out with the boys, average to average, age to age, and level to level…the boy keepers will outplay the girl keepers usually by about 2 years…it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has sat through a coed keeper camp (they’ll usually be 1 or 2 girls in the stronger half of the age group but the weaker half is almost always overwhelmingly female).


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## crush (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> *Wawa
> Sometimes the answer to “something must be done” is nothing.*


I am confused what, "Wawa" means?  Please share deeper meaning so I can give my insight.  Grace, did you take the test?  I want to share what my family is.  I love our mix.  One is a 1.  One is a 3 and one is a 7.  The last one is a 9.  We each have a very strong versions of each number.  This test is spot on.  Let me know what number you are and I'll let you know the numbers of each of my family members.  I love us so much.


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## Soccer43 (Dec 19, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> The easy fix for making soccer more appealing to HS is to do Futsal on the indoor basketball courts against other schools.
> 
> And have cheerleaders


First of all - cheerleading for soccer is annoying and distracting from the game.  They have to have cheerleaders for football because the game starts and stops with no end to it so you need something to keep you entertained.  The first time and maybe the only time I saw cheerleaders at a soccer match was at UCLA and they looked so awkward and out of place like they didn't even want to be there and no one was liking them.  They just got in the way of watching the action.

Second of all, I am so sick of people complaining about high school soccer.  We have enjoyed high school soccer immensely, so many amazing memories made and still being made.  Put on a jacket, buy some gloves, get some hot chocolate and enjoy the game.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wawa
> Sometimes the answer to “something must be done” is nothing.
> 
> For the girls it is about the perfect cheer. It’s a sport to then. They aren’t just ornaments but athletes. Your idea would work but you’d have to change futsal to make it work…give lots of time outs. The purists will hate it and ask why we Americans are changing the sport for the same of the cheerleaders but if participation is the goal give room to participate.
> ...


The way it would work is every player on the court would be a boy except the pivot / top of the diamond and all the boys would be looking for crosses to the girl.


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## blam (Dec 19, 2021)

Never mind about how to improve soccer. You can always find faults if you look hard enough.

I think many of you are not questioning the other side of the coin.

Football is practically a sport on life support for children at the time my kid entered elementary school many years ago. Throughout my years, I barely seen any kid playing football on the fields. The number of soccer players far exceeds the number of football players.

*Suddenly, at high school, football (which barely anyone played) suddenly became the most important sport friday night sport where the whole school attends. Why and how? *

Unfortunately, our teens are too uncritical and just swallow up whatever comes their way by the school admin and tradition. If I were a student president, I would put to a  vote on which sport gets to use the stadium on Friday night Fall-Spring. 

I can already see how this high school tradition will groom them into NFL fans where they will attend because everyone in the neighbourhood is attending...although they themselves never played the game. They just watch it on the sofa with a beer on their right hand.


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## dk_b (Dec 19, 2021)

blam said:


> Never mind about how to improve soccer. You can always find faults if you look hard enough.
> 
> I think many of you are not questioning the other side of the coin.
> 
> ...


There is nothing new about this - growing up in the 70s and 80s, a large number of us played soccer and then switched to American football once we started HS.  And watching HS football was a community event unlike other HS sports. The HS soccer games I have attended since about 2012 or so (my oldest soccer player started HS in 2016) have decent support, especially the games after the holiday break.  A lot more attend than attended back in the 80s.  Is it like HS football?  I doubt it but I have only been to a couple of football games in that time.  But it is still a community gathering event and I see a lot of students watching. I don't hear anyone complaining although I know that a lot of the boys and girls who play soccer wish they could watch each others' games - that has only happened a couple of times since they are usually at opposite home/road or road/home venues)

(FWIW: I have watched NFL football since I was a tiny guy, attended most Niner home games from the late 70s until about 1997 and watched a ton of games on TV (I used to be a much bigger fan than I am now). I can count the total number of beers I have consumed while watching NFL games for those nearly 50 years and I still would not run out of fingers)


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## Grace T. (Dec 19, 2021)

blam said:


> Never mind about how to improve soccer. You can always find faults if you look hard enough.
> 
> I think many of you are not questioning the other side of the coin.
> 
> ...


With football though there isn’t an issue picking up the sport. With the exception of the qb (which at the higher level schools have been recruited to attend those schools and have been playing since grade school 7v7 league), mostly it’s about physical form…you just need really fast athletes (who you can teach to catch) or really big ones (which you can teach to tackle and hold) or both (to cover the receivers and look for the interception. Soccer takes a lot more technical work. You can’t even throw the super athletic track kid in there. Basketball is somewhere in between.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Dec 20, 2021)

blam said:


> Once upon a time, many many years ago, I was at Oceanside for a soccer tournament for the very first time. It was a sunny Saturday morning. The parking lots were filled. So many American kids were playing soccer. And I thought to myself, man...if this continues, soccer will be the number 1 sport in America in less than 20 years...so many kids love soccer and are actually playing it. Compare that to American football where there just aren't many players playing football. Looks like football has a bleak future..I envisioned American football on life support....the same way I saw tennis.
> 
> Many years passed and then my kids went to high school.
> 
> ...


Do you think it'll change (a renaissance of soccer in America) after 2026?


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## blam (Dec 20, 2021)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Do you think it'll change (a renaissance of soccer in America) after 2026?


I dont believe it will change if it is not changing now.

The main reason I see football being played on Fridays with Marching Bands and cheerleaders, the entire school cheering and it being a community event as pointed out by dk_b, is that it is out of *tradition*.

Its not because more people are playing football vs soccer.  I have driven by many fields during my time in San Diego, and I have seen more adults and kids play soccer. I have barely seen any adults or kids play football, or flag football. If anyone want to challenge me on this observation, I would be glad to open a new thread. 

If we can all agree that more people play soccer vs football, then we ought to challenge this tradition. Why are we not questioning the status quo?


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## LouSag (Dec 20, 2021)

crush said:


> I have watched HS Soccer for four years.  First off, the quality of play is different for each league.  Awful is a complete put down on all the players who play HSS.  Secondly and lastly, your post is awful!!!  Hey Blam, this happens every year about HSS so get used to it.  I love watching kids play for their HS team and yes, Winter soccer is lame!!!


The complete lack of college coaches at HS soccer matches speaks volumes.
Leadership opportunities, social relationships, playing for your school and possibly playing a different position are positives of the HS soccer experience.  Quality of play is not a positive.  Avoiding a major injury is of prime importance.  As u mentioned, the referees are sub-par.  Please enjoy watching your daughter play HS soccer, but the quality of play/tactics/majority of the coaching is substandard.
And that is why a large percentage of top players skip it.


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## espola (Dec 20, 2021)

LouSag said:


> The complete lack of college coaches at HS soccer matches speaks volumes.
> Leadership opportunities, social relationships, playing for your school and possibly playing a different position are positives of the HS soccer experience.  Quality of play is not a positive.  Avoiding a major injury is of prime importance.  As u mentioned, the referees are sub-par.  Please enjoy watching your daughter play HS soccer, but the quality of play/tactics/majority of the coaching is substandard.
> And that is why a large percentage of top players skip it.


Experiences differ.  I have seen college coaches at high school games.  Many of the high school coaches I know are also club coaches.  Most of the referees I have seen at high school games also work club games; some of them (I have been told but I have no personal knowledge) also work college games.  As for the level of play, what standard are you expecting that you can judge some play is substandard?


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## crush (Dec 20, 2021)

Lou's take on how awful HSS is and then Crush's take after.  Jim Rome came around so maybe sweet Lou can too   I love this stuff btw.  Welcome to the forum.  Is your dd playing High Dessert League?  Blythe?  Yucca Valley?  29 Palms?  I love all those places btw but it's very hard to find a coach willing to live out there.  My pal coached at Yucca years ago

LS: The complete *lack of college coaches *at HS soccer matches speaks volumes.
C:  I have seen one college coache at my dd games this year and three last year.  I agree 'most' college coaches do not watch HSS and will not drive far away to watch a HSS match

LS: Leadership opportunities, social relationships, playing for your school and possibly playing a different position are positives of the HS soccer experience.
C: 100% agree

LS: Quality of play is not a positive.
C:  At your dd HS, yes.  I saw lot's of quality play this past weekend in the Newport Beach/West Coast Classic.

LS: Avoiding a major injury is of prime importance.
C:  100% agree, as is anytime a athlete plays a sport.  I have yet to see a torn ACL ((knock on wood)) in HSS match.  I have witnessed with my own eyes over 9 torn ACLs in last 6 years in club.  I have heard of many many more the the 9, including on this message board.

LS: As u mentioned, the referees are sub-par.
C:  Ref's are not sub-par.  Maybe have a few here good ones here and there but it's a big part of the problem with players not stopping and just go through the players after missing the ball completely.

LS: Please enjoy watching your daughter play HS soccer.
C:  It's the most fun I have, no joke.  I like watching the kids play for their local home town school.  Our students come out, as does the community during League and CIF playoffs, if we make it.  I need to see if the band will come.

LS: Quality of play/tactics/majority of the coaching is substandard.
C:  I guess that's what's happening at your kids school.  You need to find a top local coach who knows the game and then find students who want to represent the school.  With your attitude Lou, no way it will work at your kids school.

LS: Large percentage of top players skip it.
C:  Yes, at your kids schools and I guess some other awful schools with awful coaches and substandard standards for the soccer program.  @ My dd kids school, all the top club players are playing.  In fact Lou, this was Normal in all HS's before GDA took over and tried to kill HSS.  Trust me, they put it on life support.  HSS has been a blessing for my dd and she has learned so much.  ECNL has been a great learning place as well.

Merry Christmas Lou Sag


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## socalkdg (Dec 20, 2021)

blam said:


> The main reason I see football being played on Fridays with Marching Bands and cheerleaders, the entire school cheering and it being a community event as pointed out by dk_b, is that it is out of *tradition*.


Some schools are more know for their Marching band then they are for their football team.   Know a couple schools that finish 2-7 but their band is award winning, even going to the Rose Parade.   

By the way,  55 degrees for a 6 or 7 pm game isn't that cold to watch soccer.  We are just spoiled by warm weather here.


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## blam (Dec 20, 2021)

socalkdg said:


> By the way, 55 degrees for a 6 or 7 pm game isn't that cold to watch soccer. We are just spoiled by warm weather here.


Sure. Its not too cold to watch football either. The quesiton is why soccer gave away the prime time slot to football when by nearly every measure, the participation rate, the interest among students if not for tradition? Is it not time to question the status quo and break from tradition?


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## espola (Dec 20, 2021)

socalkdg said:


> Some schools are more know for their Marching band then they are for their football team.   Know a couple schools that finish 2-7 but their band is award winning, even going to the Rose Parade.
> 
> By the way,  55 degrees for a 6 or 7 pm game isn't that cold to watch soccer.  We are just spoiled by warm weather here.


Marching band theme that was rejected -- death scenes from 19th-century Italian operas.  I figured it to be a winner.


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## twoclubpapa (Dec 20, 2021)

socalkdg said:


> By the way,  55 degrees for a 6 or 7 pm game isn't that cold to watch soccer.  We are just spoiled by warm weather here.


So true!  Last week with game temperatures in the mid-50s I was laughing about my complaints about the "cold weather" while remembering 54 years ago I was walking to an 8am class in 26 degrees below zero temperatures.  I did have the advantage last week of keeping warm by running around on the field while the spectators in the stadium were bundled up in heavy jackets and blankets.


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## watfly (Dec 20, 2021)

blam said:


> Sure. Its not too cold to watch football either. The quesiton is why soccer gave away the prime time slot to football when by nearly every measure, the participation rate, the interest among students if not for tradition? Is it not time to question the status quo and break from tradition?


High school football is more social event than sporting event (at most schools).  Plus participation doesn't equal interest.  A lot of people understand/appreciate football that don't play it, most American's that don't play soccer tend to not understand it, i.e. can't appreciate game play other than a goal.


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## LouSag (Dec 20, 2021)

crush said:


> Lou's take on how awful HSS is and then Crush's take after.  Jim Rome came around so maybe sweet Lou can too   I love this stuff btw.  Welcome to the forum.  Is your dd playing High Dessert League?  Blythe?  Yucca Valley?  29 Palms?  I love all those places btw but it's very hard to find a coach willing to live out there.  My pal coached at Yucca years ago
> 
> LS: The complete *lack of college coaches *at HS soccer matches speaks volumes.
> C:  I have seen one college coache at my dd games this year and three last year.  I agree 'most' college coaches do not watch HSS and will not drive far away to watch a HSS match
> ...


Merry Christmas to you too.
I watched both weekends of the Best of the West Newport tournament.  Top flight CIF.  I stand by all my comments.  As a comparison, there were numerous coaches at the GA event the previous weekend at Silverlakes.  Didn’t see a single college coach at the Newport event.  
My HS reference point is club soccer (ECNL level) vs HS. You can throw barbs at my kids school all you want. She plays for a top CIF school and a top ECNL club. The difference in quality of play is wide. 
Looks like you agree with many my points…except your flip flop on the referees. A few days ago you were preaching for the referees to “get the cards out early” to protect players. Does that apply to ECNL/GA games too? 
I enjoy the debate with you, but you will never convince me that HS soccer quality is the equivalent of ECNL.  A mid-table ECNL side would win CIF if given the chance.


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## crush (Dec 20, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Merry Christmas to you too.
> I watched both weekends of the Best of the West Newport tournament.  Top flight CIF.  I stand by all my comments.  As a comparison, there were numerous coaches at the GA event the previous weekend at Silverlakes.  Didn’t see a single college coach at the Newport event.
> My HS reference point is club soccer (ECNL level) vs HS. You can throw barbs at my kids school all you want. She plays for a top CIF school and a top ECNL club. The difference in quality of play is wide.
> Looks like you agree with many my points…except your flip flop on the referees. A few days ago you were preaching for the referees to “get the cards out early” to protect players. Does that apply to ECNL/GA games too?
> I enjoy the debate with you, but you will never convince me that HS soccer quality is the equivalent of ECNL.  A mid-table ECNL side would win CIF if given the chance.


I never said HSS is better quality then the Elite Club National League.  Never ever did I, did I?  You said in a blanket kind of a way that hss is awful.  I took issue with that because now your saying in a way that the girls are awful and that's not fair.  Most teams only have a few ecnl girls and maybe a ga and other travel club players.  The others want to play soccer as a community, like the top club in Europe does.  Take back awful and just say, "HSS is not on par with ECNL level play."  That is true.


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## GoldenGate (Dec 20, 2021)

blam said:


> I dont believe it will change if it is not changing now.
> 
> The main reason I see football being played on Fridays with Marching Bands and cheerleaders, the entire school cheering and it being a community event as pointed out by dk_b, is that it is out of *tradition*.
> 
> ...


Because 99% of boys' HS soccer is unwatchable.  HS boys soccer is a terrible, awful spectator sport.  Hardly anyone watches boys' HS soccer for the same reason you would never spend your Friday night watching high school kids play lacrosse, rugby, cross country, tennis or chess unless one of them is your kid.  HS boys' soccer is dull and it is being played terribly.  There is nothing pretty about it no matter how much soccer people keep calling it the "beautiful game" as if it's better than any other sport, which it is not.  In reality, although it can be fun to watch at the very highest levels (which do not exist in the US), it is a terrible ugly sport when it is not, which makes it much less fun to watch than most any other sport at the HS level.  On the other hand, football and basketball are often fun to watch even when they aren't being played at a very high level.  There is often compelling drama in those sports that doesn't exist when a bunch of kids who usually aren't very popular or athletic are passing a ball around the back and/or playing boot ball for what seems like an eternity. 

College football and soccer are both played the same seasons and often on same days, yet everyone watches football and no one watches soccer. This happens because football because it is fun to watch and soccer is still insufferable at the college level.


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## crush (Dec 20, 2021)

crush said:


> I never said HSS is better quality then the Elite Club National League.  Never ever did I, did I?  You said in a blanket kind of a way that hss is awful.  I took issue with that because now your saying in a way that the girls are awful and that's not fair.  Most teams only have a few ecnl girls and maybe a ga and other travel club players.  The others want to play soccer as a community, like the top club in Europe does.  Take back awful and just say, "HSS is not on par with ECNL level play."  That is true.


P.S Lou, I don't think all the teams were trying to won this Classic.  No way.  Playing two games in one day is not good.  I believe most brought up JV players and hoped they had enough players to play because of Winter break.  Is this your first year watching hss?


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## blam (Dec 20, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> College football and soccer are both played the same seasons and often on same days, yet everyone watches football and no one watches soccer. This happens because football because it is fun to watch and soccer is still insufferable at the college level.


What a person finds fun to watch is determined by the culture, the upbringing, the environment and it is not an objective fact. I will give you a point that what you say is valid for most people who had some kind of upbringing where they grew up watching football. However, I would challenge the assumption that football is more fun to watch as an objective fact and not just a matter of taste. The rest of the world can be an example in soccer vs rugby.

Like musical taste, you may think rock is the best music out there but it can be a ear sore for the younger generation who were never groomed to like that type of music.

*Soccer can be more fun to watch than football*. Its a matter of a person's environment, upbringing, experience, culture all playing a role to determine what he/she likes and enjoys watching more. Why then do we decide for the teenagers that they would enjoy watching football more than soccer and give the golden goose away to football? Do we not want this to change?


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## oh canada (Dec 21, 2021)

LouSag said:


> And that is why a large percentage of top players skip it.


Almost every ecnl girl we know plays for their high school (O.C.). Your view may be skewed by your club's strongarm policy? Is it Surf?


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

HS and college sports are what the player, teams, coaches, make of it.

Some schools and programs have good turnouts others not so much.  HS can have more attendance and better fields vs some colleges depending on which division and university.

Local scouts regularly show up at the post season for the CIF playoffs, there where plenty of college coaches around, some academy, some forgien. Every year by kids played there where scouts, our youngest talked to 3 different ones at one of his 2nd round game this year for example.

Soccer is the USA is still way behind football, basketball and  baseball/softball and likely will never catch those three from a financial standpoint.

For the causal observer soccer is a boring sport to watch like golf.  Just not enough action or scoring to get people excited much.   HS, College, MLS can be hard to watch if you're a soccer purist.   When there is something to play for like in the post season some excite me can be brought but for regular season games yeah not so much.

Every players journey is different some think the letter leagues help them get noticed more while others play locally for their HS or fringe leagues like UPSL and they can be recuited from those as well so it's no one sized fits all.     The galaxy academy put together a u19 showcase team for the NEXT event in Norco that was made up of mostly UPSL players and they went undefeated and didn't give up a goal.


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## crush (Dec 21, 2021)

oh canada said:


> Almost every ecnl girl we know plays for their high school (O.C.). Your view may be skewed by your club's strongarm policy?


Strongarm tactics and lies on top of fraud and Docs looking for some action from the ladies.  "HSS is awful" some say and if you dare leave the firm ((the country club)) and play HSS, you will never be allowed to play for the YNT because you will become awful.  Plus, if you leave now and talk shit about our strongarm policies, on the fucking forum, we will make sure your kid will be blacklisted.  Some things never change.  Lot's of money and power at stake with little ole soccer.  I had no idea how powerful this sport is and it means way more to those who can pay for what they want for themselves and their children.


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## Grace T. (Dec 21, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> HS and college sports are what the player, teams, coaches, make of it.
> 
> Some schools and programs have good turnouts others not so much.  HS can have more attendance and better fields vs some colleges depending on which division and university.
> 
> ...


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## GT45 (Dec 21, 2021)

Sports are educational though. Teamwork, commitment, work ethic are some of the most important qualities in life. I heard an employer say one day that her soccer player employees are some of her best ones because they understand being part of a group and being on time, etc.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Dec 21, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Soccer is the USA is still way behind football, basketball and  baseball/softball and likely will never catch those three from a financial standpoint.


I think in my life time soccer in US will eclipse baseball... May not be in 5 years or 10 years... but (knock on wood) if I live another 40-50 years, I can see it happen. Lot of data showing how younger generation likes soccer and not so much baseball...



lafalafa said:


> For the causal observer soccer is a boring sport to watch like golf.  Just not enough action or scoring to get people excited much.   HS, College, MLS can be hard to watch if you're a soccer purist.


I feel attacked!  Golf is fun to watch! Bet a few long shots and seeing them in contention on Sunday is pretty darn fun... 
Agree about HS and college soccer though - hard to watch. MLS depends on game/team I would think...


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I think in my life time soccer in US will eclipse baseball... May not be in 5 years or 10 years... but (knock on wood) if I live another 40-50 years, I can see it happen. Lot of data showing how younger generation likes soccer and not so much baseball...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well gambling can make any event more interesting for adults.  Sports betting is huge with football and other sports not so much for soccer.

$4billion +  per team compared to half a billion says there is very little chance for soccer in USA to catch up financially.   When you draw almost 4 million fans a year,  going to almost impossible compare to 350,000 the galaxy draw (17 x 20k).  TV revenue no comparison also.   Don't see it happening in your lifetime and there are other sports that are catching on like MMA and moto sports.









						How much are L.A. sports teams worth? More than $20 billion - California News Times
					

The· Dodgers And Lakers Last year I won the championship. For the owners of these teams, victory goes beyond trophy and diamond-studded rings. The Dodgers and Lakers are the two most Highly acclaimed sports franchise In the world, according to Forbes estimates released on Friday. The Dallas...




					californianewstimes.com


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


>


Yup if you asked every adult on our block if they ever been to a paid professional soccer game their answers would be likely no for a high majority.

Dodgers or Lakers the answer would be close to yes 100%.   Same with watching those on TV, with some saying yes for soccer but only during special events like the world cup.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 21, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Well gambling can make any event more interesting for adults.  Sports betting is huge with football and other sports not so much for soccer.
> 
> $4billion +  per team compared to half a billion says there is very little chance for soccer in USA to catch up financially.   When you draw almost 4 million fans a year,  going to almost impossible compare to 350,000 the galaxy draw (17 x 20k).  TV revenue no comparison also.   Don't see it happening in your lifetime and there are other sports that are catching on like MMA and moto sports.
> 
> ...


Umm.. Betting on Premier League is awesome.


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Umm.. Betting on Premier League is the awesome.


Yeah and other leagues also, not so much domesticly like the conversation was referring to.


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

toucan said:


> I don't understand why sports teams belong in (public) High School at all.  Soccer, for example, requires outsized field space, coaching fees, travel expenses, buses, uniforms and insurance expenses that could be better applied to a science or engineering curriculum.  You could use that gigantic field space for real labs, and maybe pay actual teachers with a math and science degrees, instead of some guy who is going to show up and just run kids through a bunch of Coerver drills.  *Public schools should be used to educate, and nothing more.*  If you want to have your kid play on a school soccer team, then put him in a private school and pay the extra freight.  But the public ought not be paying taxes just so somebody else's snot-nosed little kid can play on a school athletics team.


Sports are educational.   Just like the science lab or wood shop.  Should we pay to teach somebody how to make a wood box or fizzle some mentos?

You might not be happy to know some public colleges subsidize athletes in a variety of ways including paying for travel,  lodging,  meals, and gear.  Some HS do this also to a more limited extent.


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## graciesdad (Dec 21, 2021)

This thread has jumped the shark.


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## dk_b (Dec 21, 2021)

toucan said:


> I don't understand why sports teams belong in (public) High School at all.  Soccer, for example, requires outsized field space, coaching fees, travel expenses, buses, uniforms and insurance expenses that could be better applied to a science or engineering curriculum.  You could use that gigantic field space for real labs, and maybe pay actual teachers with a math and science degrees, instead of some guy who is going to show up and just run kids through a bunch of Coerver drills.  *Public schools should be used to educate, and nothing more.*  If you want to have your kid play on a school soccer team, then put him in a private school and pay the extra freight.  But the public ought not be paying taxes just so somebody else's snot-nosed little kid can play on a school athletics team.


Screw those poor kids who want to play sports for their school and can't afford playing for a club, right?  And while we are at it, that jazz band program or chorus or theatre . . . screw them, too!

I've written about my kids' public school. It's a large urban school in a Northern California city.  It is underfunded like many and the sports program - one of the largest in the state based on # of sports (though other schools have much better participation rates) - is run on a shoestring (though the facilities are definitely on state/municipal property - on campus or at a shared-use municipal park). It also has one of the best jazz programs in the country and 3 of my 4 kids have taken photography and used the darkroom built adjacent to their classroom (but what a waste, right?  I mean, what's the likelihood that they are going to use film in any profession?!). It has on campus labs to serve over 3,000 students.  Etc. There are some (not many, given the size of the school) student-athletes who play (currently and have played and will play) college and professional sports. But the athletics program does not serve the elite player who does play club sports (soccer, hoops, travel baseball/softball, volleyball, water polo, etc.).  It serve the hundreds and hundreds who won't play beyond HS but who like sports, like playing sports and like representing the school.  The elite athletes who play among them have a great time, too, for the many intangibles that I and others have mentioned in this thread and others. The kid who is going to play water polo at Stanford and plays for our youth national team does not play it to "get seen", the kid played every minute of every NCAA soccer tournament game (through the finals of the College Cup) did not play to improve his game, the kid who ended up playing at the local college and in the WNBA played because this was her community. I could go on.  Even my older daughter - she's had success at the club level and is having success at the college level - has ZERO regrets playing HS, just like nearly every club teammate of hers who played HS soccer prior to starting their D1 college careers (also like those competitors whom they'd routinely face in the ECNL Playoffs).

I understand that we may not share the same view of what the goals of a high school education should be but I firmly believe that our kids should have the opportunity to expand as young people/emerging adults, not just in the classroom but in the types of programs offered by or through the school.  Sports, like the arts, are an essential part of that.  Should my tax dollars go to that?  Hell, yes, it should. My kids have zero musical talent but when I see the jazz band on an east coast tour, I am psyched for them and psyched for the school.


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## crush (Dec 21, 2021)

toucan said:


> You are equating sports and "science lab?" That just tells me that you don't know the difference between the two.  And no, I don't think wood shop belongs in school either.  And yes, I know that public colleges subsidize athletes, which is part of the reason why taxes are high and why tuition costs so much.
> 
> Schools should be about education; not sports.  You want your kid to play sports?  Fine.  But pay for it yourself.  Don't ask the public to pay for it.


What about the kids that hate school and only go because of sports?


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## lafalafa (Dec 21, 2021)

toucan said:


> You are equating sports and "science lab?" That just tells me that you don't know the difference between the two.  And no, I don't think wood shop belongs in school either.  And yes, I know that public colleges subsidize athletes, which is part of the reason why taxes are high and why tuition costs so much.
> 
> Schools should be about education; not sports.  You want your kid to play sports?  Fine.  But pay for it yourself.  Don't ask the public to pay for it.


No you're equating sports to something it's not.

Just like the arts, science, or others, Physical Education is a subject that is taught in high school and college.  You may not like the subject but nobody is getting ride of them in public schools because normal people see the value in them helping us educate our future leaders.

Almost all public HS teachers of sports also teach other subjects, math, history, science, etc.  Some of students they teach will go on to becoming teachers themselves, coaches, physical therapist,  sports medicine professionals,  athletic trainers, etc.

  ...


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## Grace T. (Dec 21, 2021)

toucan said:


> Yes, cut the jazz band, chorus and theatre programs.  These aren't about education, and we should not have to pay for your kid's singing program.  As far as your kids' school being underfunded, well, maybe the thing to do is to cut the incredibly large sports program.  Then maybe you can hire another couple of English, Math and science teachers.  Are you so ignorant that you do not see the disconnect between complaining about your school being underfunded, and then bragging about its enormous sports programs?  And as for paying for your kids to be on a jazz band, why on Earth should anybody but you have to do that?  Form your own jazz band if you think it is so valuable, and then your kids can bebop to their hearts' content.


That’s not where the money in California has been going. Sports, music and arts have all been cut. The growth has been in admin staff: lawyers (particularly those that handle special needs cases), special needs admins and aides, diversity officers, counselors, public relations officers, learning specialists, nutritional specialists and admins, guards and security, curriculum specialists. Then there’s also the pension responsibilities (but that is a separate but related budget)

the problem with “just pay for it yourself” in California is that it violates the equity requirements.  If you want it through the school, you and your buddies can gift a jazz band but you can’t ask each student to pay for their share of jazz band or even buy their own instruments (California has said that discriminated against poor people who are entitled to a full access to education and extracurricular). Do you have rich suburban schools that can gift a football team, girls soccer squad (title ix concerns), jazz band AND art program and an inner city school that can only focus on football/cheer or jazz band or debate team (which is why some of these schools seem really good at one or two things but not much else)


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## Grace T. (Dec 21, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> No you're equating sports to something it's not.
> 
> Just like the arts, science, or others, Physical Education is a subject that is taught in high school and college.  You may not like the subject but nobody is getting ride of them in public schools because normal people see the value in them helping us educate our future leaders.
> 
> ...


This is why sports is the easier thing for schools to do. The coach is generally teaching another subject and is funded. They have the field (and even the pools and lights) through the facilities budget. They just have to raise the money for uniforms (often reused), referees and the transport.

an art program is more difficult. It requires a qualified instructor, supplies (for which students cannot be charged) and lab room. Pe is also more difficult in the elementary school ages as a result (because the teachers are gen  younger child qualified instead of specific subjects and there are fewer of them)…hence private schools have sports for middle and elementary but public schools generally don’t.


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## crush (Dec 21, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> No you're equating sports to something it's not.
> 
> Just like the arts, science, or others, Physical Education is a subject that is taught in high school and college.  You may not like the subject but nobody is getting ride of them in public schools because normal people see the value in them helping us educate our future leaders.
> 
> ...


I was a PE major right when the name was switched to Kinesiology.  It sounds way better then PE teacher.  I remember when I dated a girl from UCLA and her old man was an attorney.  He asked me what I was going to do with my life in a round about way and I told him I was going to teach PE.  He laughed at me in a very arrogant way and said their is no money in that.  I told the wise guy money isn't everything and he said, "yes it is."  I bailed on the PE degree after I did some observation at the local high schools.  First off, most of the teachers did not like PE teacher.  Jealousy 100%.  I saw the rift and felt in my gut that PE would be the first to go and the first to be made fun of by the teachers when cuts are needed.  Some teachers hate sports and the kids that play them.


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

toucan said:


> I agree that P.E. is taught in High School.  But it should not be.  That does not educate your kids, unless you think that learning the rules of softball constitutes "education."  I don't agree that P.E. class breeds our "future leaders."  But if it does, then our selection criteria is all wrong.  If we want better leaders, then we should probably look to those with better education, and choose those who are great in the subjects of History or Science, or something else that actually requires knowledge and analysis.


Boo!!!!!  Look at our kids toucan.  I had so many debates with people like you.  PE is   a joke because you can;t challenge a kid for obesity. Our kids are obese and so are so many adults.  Talk about an epidemic.  Your attitude is why our kids are way over weight, stuck playing fucking video games in their rooms, forced to wear a mask , and I'm 100% sure are getting taught by pornhub how to treat a girl.  We gots lots of problems and starts with health and wellness for our youth.


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

toucan said:


> I get why you think it is less expensive for math teachers to teach sports.  But your logic is flawed.  Instead of paying for the pool, lights and sports facilities you speak of, why not just slash the facilities budget, sell off the soccer and football fields, and have the Math teachers assigned to teaching additional math courses?  Don't you think that would be a better use of their time and our money?


Please......this is so weak!!!  We need healthy kids first and then teach the smart ones not lie to us about math & science.  I had the best PE teacher back in middle school.  Coach Smart.  We had co-ed soccer, softball and I think volleyball.  We had playoffs each time and it was big time and you got medals if your team was champ.  My team won once.  Not everyone can win in PE.  The other thing that was really smart that Coach Smart taught was health and fitness.  Dude was in great shape and practiced what he preached.  I am afraid to say PE is a joke now because of PC folks like you hate it.  Why not help the kids eat better, teach health and wellness and then throw in some competition?  Your school idea sucks and I would never ever go to school with no PE or sports.  You got problems, moo!!!


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## Grace T. (Dec 22, 2021)

toucan said:


> I get why you think it is less expensive for math teachers to teach sports.  But your logic is flawed.  Instead of paying for the pool, lights and sports facilities you speak of, why not just slash the facilities budget, sell off the soccer and football fields, and have the Math teachers assigned to teaching additional math courses?  Don't you think that would be a better use of their time and our money?





toucan said:


> If we cut all sports from school - as we should - then we don't have to spend all that money on Title 9 lawyers and gender equality concerns.  Then we can hire real teachers in real subjects, and actually educate our children.  The US currently ranks 38th in the world in math and science, but first in Friday Night Football, Marching Bands and Cheerleading.  I think maybe your priorities need revisiting.


Not my priorities…California’s. Those diversity officers, special needs services and lawyers are not dealing with sports issues. And California has already said you can’t do advanced math classes only certain kids participate in: you could do a ton of remedial math classes and force all kids into them.  

the biggest issue though at least in this forum is that a lot of parents are supportive of club soccer, little league and basketball.If you sell off the fields, gyms and pools then club and rec sports will have a real hard time finding facilities to play. There aren’t enough parks and rec fields and gyms to make this happen and ayso at least for soccer has first pick usually. Not saying this is a right or wrong result…just the reality. Those pools are very expensive to maintain, operate and insure…if they haven’t paved over them despite all that (while they were tearing out the jungle gyms from elementary schools) they aren’t going to do it now…that’s the low hanging fruit.


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

toucan said:


> Your point is valid; namely, that sports parents want the public school districts to subsidize their childrens' club teams by building fields, maintaining them, and then letting the private sector use them.  But that model is wrong.  The public should be required to pay the costs of educating our populace -* but not teaching them sports, which is not educational at all*.  And certainly, the public should not be required to subsidize private sports.


Are you a teacher?  Did you play sports?  I will hold back my THUNDER and LIGHTNING after I hear from you.  You have to share a little background.


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## espola (Dec 22, 2021)

toucan said:


> If we cut all sports from school - as we should - then we don't have to spend all that money on Title 9 lawyers and gender equality concerns.  Then we can hire real teachers in real subjects, and actually educate our children.  The US currently ranks 38th in the world in math and science, but first in Friday Night Football, Marching Bands and Cheerleading.  I think maybe your priorities need revisiting.


Title 9 covers more than sports.

I recommend you run for your local school board with your platform.  Tell us how it turned out.


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## espola (Dec 22, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not my priorities…California’s. Those diversity officers, special needs services and lawyers are not dealing with sports issues. And California has already said you can’t do advanced math classes only certain kids participate in: you could do a ton of remedial math classes and force all kids into them.


When did "California" tell you that?


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

Yo, see political thread if you dare,,,lol


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

Bump.....lol


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## Grace T. (Dec 22, 2021)

crush said:


> Yo, see political thread if you dare,,,lol


Here's my question...what's up with robotics.....why does every private school have one and brag on their recruiting about their robotics teams?  Every single tour we took of a private middle school showed us their robotics room.  Why are the public high and middle schools, particularly the magnets, if they do one decked out program, do they pick robotics?   Is it fun? yeah! but if having fun isn't our criteria for schools that doesn't do it Do the kids learn stuff?....sure, but not anymore than the old "woodshop" classes.  Is it relevant to the future careers?  Perhaps on a tangent but the market for robot designers in the US certainly hasn't taken off and it has about as much relevance as model UN (and future diplomatic careers) have.  Does it help with engineering?  Yeah, but it's not an engineering class per se....otherwise they'd call it something like "mechanical engineering" instead of trying to build robots to beat other robots.  It might help to teach engineering but it is not an engineering class per se.  And it's not like Model UN or the poetry club or even subject Olympiads that you can one and done it....it's a substantial time commitment akin to the debate team or a sports team.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Dec 22, 2021)

graciesdad said:


> This thread has jumped the shark.


haha let's be honest... isn't that why we are all on here?  a little controversy, a little friendly banter, a little debate.. I'll get my popcorn out.


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## espola (Dec 22, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Here's my question...what's up with robotics.....why does every private school have one and brag on their recruiting about their robotics teams?  Every single tour we took of a private middle school showed us their robotics room.  Why are the public high and middle schools, particularly the magnets, if they do one decked out program, do they pick robotics?   Is it fun? yeah! but if having fun isn't our criteria for schools that doesn't do it Do the kids learn stuff?....sure, but not anymore than the old "woodshop" classes.  Is it relevant to the future careers?  Perhaps on a tangent but the market for robot designers in the US certainly hasn't taken off and it has about as much relevance as model UN (and future diplomatic careers) have.  Does it help with engineering?  Yeah, but it's not an engineering class per se....otherwise they'd call it something like "mechanical engineering" instead of trying to build robots to beat other robots.  It might help to teach engineering but it is not an engineering class per se.  And it's not like Model UN or the poetry club or even subject Olympiads that you can one and done it....it's a substantial time commitment akin to the debate team or a sports team.


You gave a lot of good reasons for HS robotics competition.  Was that your intent?

It may not be an "engineering class", but it definitely involves real engineering.  They get to learn the way real engineers do.


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> haha let's be honest... isn't that why we are all on here?  a little controversy, a little friendly banter, a little debate.. I'll get my popcorn out.


I love the Avatar pic socal soccer dad. And I see you paid to go Platinum.  I change my story I write all the time after I re read it anmd see it's over the top or in wrong section.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Dec 22, 2021)

crush said:


> I see you paid to go Platinum.


Worth every penny for the edit and delete function


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## LouSag (Dec 22, 2021)

crush said:


> P.S Lou, I don't think all the teams were trying to won this Classic.  No way.  Playing two games in one day is not good.  I believe most brought up JV players and hoped they had enough players to play because of Winter break.  Is this your first year watching hss?


Crush, I have been watching, playing, coaching and refereeing HS soccer/club soccer for 46 years now.  No need for you to approve my futbol resume.
Agree that playing 2 games in 1 day is not a good idea. What’s wrong with playing a second game on Sundays? Most schools have 3 games per week once the real season starts in January. That is too much. 2 games in a week is plenty. 
There are some great players on the HS fields, and the vast majority of them are ECNL players.  Maybe comparing HS to ECNL level of play is a bridge too far ( it was a mean comment and I freely admit that) but the quality of HS play is tough to watch.  No changing fields, possession lost after 2 passes, punts from the GK all the time, most coaches lack tactical awareness, etc…So they play kick and chase and hit endless long balls.  Ball is out of play all the time…I counted 50+ throw-ins for just a single 40 minute half.  It worked for England in 1966, but they haven’t won jack the last 45 years, so now they try to emulate Man City and Barca from 2010-11.  But that’s a whole nother thread!
Bottom line, HS soccer is a different experience from club soccer.  The social and leadership aspects of it are difficult to measure and quantify.  MOO (copying you now), is that most girls gain from the social and leadership sides of the HS game.  Getting scouted and quality of play is not what the HS game is about.


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## LouSag (Dec 22, 2021)

oh canada said:


> Almost every ecnl girl we know plays for their high school (O.C.). Your view may be skewed by your club's strongarm policy? Is it Surf?


That’s because Surf offers a strong winter program alternative to HS.  40+ girls and 3-4 coaches working with them. Players decide which one to choose.  Strong arm?  Not sure.


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## crush (Dec 22, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Crush, I have been watching, playing, coaching and refereeing HS soccer/club soccer for 46 years now.  No need for you to approve my futbol resume.
> Agree that playing 2 games in 1 day is not a good idea. What’s wrong with playing a second game on Sundays? Most schools have 3 games per week once the real season starts in January. That is too much. 2 games in a week is plenty.
> There are some great players on the HS fields, and the vast majority of them are ECNL players.  Maybe comparing HS to ECNL level of play is a bridge too far ( it was a mean comment and I freely admit that) but the quality of HS play is tough to watch.  No changing fields, possession lost after 2 passes, punts from the GK all the time, most coaches lack tactical awareness, etc…So they play kick and chase and hit endless long balls.  Ball is out of play all the time…I counted 50+ throw-ins for just a single 40 minute half.  It worked for England in 1966, but they haven’t won jack the last 45 years, so now they try to emulate Man City and Barca from 2010-11.  But that’s a whole nother thread!
> Bottom line, HS soccer is a different experience from club soccer.  The social and leadership aspects of it are difficult to measure and quantify.  MOO (copying you now), is that most girls gain from the social and leadership sides of the HS game.  Getting scouted and quality of play is not what the HS game is about.


Thanks for going deeper Lou and being HOT.  I'm tired of men being liars to one's face and then do the opposite.  Speak freely my friend.  I want to make HSS soccer better for our girls programs.  However, let's be realistic.  Not all HS have excellent basketball teams.  Let's not call it awful like others do on here.  My wife cried when I showed her this video.  Girls HS is not for all the girls and it can hard socially for some.  Puppies always cure pain ,y brother.  I saw my dd team take a pass back from goalie and go from the left side all the way back to the right side.  Three passes then a pass to the mid then she passed to my dd on the wing and then my dd crossed it and the other player collected, made a fake and then turn and shot and we scored.  It was fantastic.  Did that happen again?  No.  We had other times where we made connections but not like that goal.  It was a full team effort


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Dec 22, 2021)

LouSag said:


> No changing fields, possession lost after 2 passes, punts from the GK all the time, most coaches lack tactical awareness, etc…So they play kick and chase and hit endless long balls.  Ball is out of play all the time…I counted 50+ throw-ins for just a single 40 minute half.


Aw man this is the worst. Hate this version of soccer.


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## espola (Dec 22, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Crush, I have been watching, playing, coaching and refereeing HS soccer/club soccer for 46 years now.  No need for you to approve my futbol resume.
> Agree that playing 2 games in 1 day is not a good idea. What’s wrong with playing a second game on Sundays? Most schools have 3 games per week once the real season starts in January. That is too much. 2 games in a week is plenty.
> There are some great players on the HS fields, and the vast majority of them are ECNL players.  Maybe comparing HS to ECNL level of play is a bridge too far ( it was a mean comment and I freely admit that) but the quality of HS play is tough to watch.  No changing fields, possession lost after 2 passes, punts from the GK all the time, most coaches lack tactical awareness, etc…So they play kick and chase and hit endless long balls.  Ball is out of play all the time…I counted 50+ throw-ins for just a single 40 minute half.  It worked for England in 1966, but they haven’t won jack the last 45 years, so now they try to emulate Man City and Barca from 2010-11.  But that’s a whole nother thread!
> Bottom line, HS soccer is a different experience from club soccer.  The social and leadership aspects of it are difficult to measure and quantify.  MOO (copying you now), is that most girls gain from the social and leadership sides of the HS game.  Getting scouted and quality of play is not what the HS game is about.


Could you tell us which high schools you are describing there?


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## crush (Dec 23, 2021)

espola said:


> Could you tell us which high schools you are describing there?


I dont think he should because he called all the soccer players awful.  That would just be so awful to out all the awful coaches and awful soccer programs.  Hey Lou, I would keep that to yourself, moo!!!


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## Kicker 2.0 (Dec 23, 2021)

crush said:


> I dont think he should because he called all the soccer players awful.  That would just be so awful to out all the awful coaches and awful soccer programs.  Hey Lou, I would keep that to yourself, moo!!!


He never said the kids were awful, he said the quality of play is awful.  Both my kids (who are playing HS) totally agree.  Doesn’t mean they aren’t having a blast.
If it offends you, you can liken it to you calling the GDA “a weak league”.


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## crush (Dec 23, 2021)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He never said the kids were awful, he said the quality of play is awful.  Both my kids (who are playing HS) totally agree.  Doesn’t mean they aren’t having a blast.
> If it offends you, you can liken it to you calling the GDA “a weak league”.


2.0 has not made a change at all I see.  GDA was evil bro and they hated HSS.  They got Karma for trying to destroy something free for the kids.  it's was full assault  Merry Christmas and tomorrow will be my last day.  You can have the forum bro.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Dec 23, 2021)

crush said:


> 2.0 has not made a change at all I see.  GDA was evil bro and they hated HSS.  They got Karma for trying to destroy something free for the kids.  it's was full assault  Merry Christmas and tomorrow will be my last day.  You can have the forum bro.


No change was needed…..just enjoy calling you on your hypocrisy and Bullshit.  It’s almost like a hobby…..LOL.


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## crush (Dec 23, 2021)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> No change was needed…..just enjoy calling you on your hypocrisy and Bullshit.  It’s almost like a hobby…..LOL.


Hahaha.  When Docs of the girls youth soccer program lie and behave poorly with hoorible examples and more lies, its not funny at all.  If they the Doc chase the moms and assistant coaches for play time and better security for their job, that is wrong and not bullshit Kicker 2.0 who comes to the forum as hobby because crush is a hypocrite and full of bullshit.  Here is some facts for the group to decide:  You are the type of man that would smile at me at the fields as I shared deeply from my heart how I and my dd were daealing with the new evil GDA league and what the evil doc was up to.  I had no idea how much you were into it.  I honestly had no clue.  I also shared deeply and privately with Private Messages on the forum with you that you decided to copy and paste and save for later to "out" me.  I have it all Kicker 2.0.  Why would a father share my deepest pains with the group on here? That is back stabber.  The other things you said publicly on the forum is your life is better then my life.  Who talks like that?  Last but not least, you threaten me right here on the forum that I best turn around if I see you at the fields.  That is 100% true.  Now your back for more hobby?  What do you do for sport?  Damn dude, your scaring me.  I thought you left.  I am 100% leaving I promise.  You will not hear another peep from me ever again I promise.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Dec 23, 2021)

crush said:


> Why would a father share my deepest pains with the group on here?


I don’t know…attention, empathy? No one asks you to, you just take every opportunity possible to tell the tale.

And yah…when you say the things you did, it’s best we keep our distance.  You interpret it as a threat, I say it’s just common sense to avoid potential conflict.  Youa pretty unstable guy based on your posting patterns (ie referring to yourself in the 3rd person) and I don’t want to have to defend myself.

Guess we’ll see which new avatar/personality you come up with next.


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## LouSag (Dec 23, 2021)

espola said:


> Could you tell us which high schools you are describing there?


Every single one except Harvard Westlake last year, and my daughter does not play for Harvard/Westlake.


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## LouSag (Dec 23, 2021)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> He never said the kids were awful, he said the quality of play is awful.  Both my kids (who are playing HS) totally agree.  Doesn’t mean they aren’t having a blast.
> If it offends you, you can liken it to you calling the GDA “a weak league”.


Spot on Kicker.  I didn’t call the players awful…I called the quality of play awful.  My recent posts highlight that there are some quality players in HS soccer.  I wish there were more….


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## espola (Dec 23, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Every single one except Harvard Westlake last year, and my daughter does not play for Harvard/Westlake.


"Every single one" is not much of an answer.


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## justneededaname (Dec 25, 2021)

LouSag said:


> Have you ever watched a HS soccer game…the quality of play is awful.


I think this comment sums up why soccer will never be a dominant sport in the United States. Only in the United States will "fans" not watch the sport they love unless the quality is high, and generally that means the top `10-20 teams in the world, or the team that their kid plays on.

High school football. The quality of play is awful. The stands are full.
High school basketball. The quality of play is awful. The stands are full.
Most college football. The quality of play is awful. The stands are full.
Championship league in England. The quality of play is not very good. The stands are full.
Most Liga MX games except the top 5 teams. The quality of play is not very good. The stands are full.
Name almost any soccer league that is not the top league in a top 10 soccer country . The quality of play is not very good. The stands are full.

In the United States, we would rather DVR Manchester City than go cheer for our local team. Soccer parents come off as snobs.


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## Ellejustus (Dec 26, 2021)

Lou Sag said:
*"Have you ever watched a HS soccer game?  The quality of play is awful!
"I have been watching, playing, coaching and refereeing HS soccer/club soccer for 46 years now"
"Just Awful" Only one good HSS school, that's it!*

Soccer 43 says:
*"I am so sick of people complaining about high school soccer.  We have enjoyed high school soccer immensely, so many amazing memories."*

Just needed a name responded with:
*"Soccer parents come off as snobs."*

Carlsbad 7 added a thought I liked as well:
*It's not just the "snob" factor it's also the jerkoffs that want to make themselves feel better by dumping on or excluding others.*


Socal -Soccer-Dad chimed in as well:
*haha let's be honest... isn't that why we are all on here?   little friendly banter, I'll get my popcorn out.*

Ellejustus says: 
*I believe the snobs took over this sport and I can prove it.  
Now is not the time, later though......*


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## Ellejustus (Dec 26, 2021)

*Snob:* a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and dislikes people or activities regarded as lower-class.

"her mother was a snob and wanted a lawyer as a son-in-law"

a person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.

What is *snobby attitude?*

English Language Learners Definition of snobbish

*having or showing the attitude of people who think they are better than other people* : of or relating to people who are snobs.


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 26, 2021)

What I find find funny about youth soccer that has been identified in this thread. It's not just the "snob" factor it's also the jerkoffs that want to make themselves feel better by dumping on or excluding others. That's really why they "hate" HS soccer. HS soccer is something they cant control. With clubs you can control the team by influencing the parents + once the parents group together they can control the coach. (If this doesnt work just throw $$$ at them with "privates")


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## Ellejustus (Dec 26, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> What I find find funny about youth soccer that has been identified in this thread. It's not just the "snob" factor it's also the jerkoffs that want to make themselves feel better by dumping on or excluding others. That's really why they "hate" HS soccer. HS soccer is something they cant control. With clubs you can control the team by influencing the parents + once the parents group together they can control the coach. (If this doesnt work just throw $$$ at them with "privates")


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## Ellejustus (Dec 26, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> What I find find funny about youth soccer that has been identified in this thread. It's not just the "snob" factor it's also the jerkoffs that want to make themselves feel better by dumping on or excluding others. That's really why they "hate" HS soccer. HS soccer is something they cant control. With clubs you can control the team by influencing the parents + once the parents group together they can control the coach. (If this doesnt work just throw $$$ at them with "privates")


I added your quote to my snob take on thread #92.


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## Ellejustus (Dec 26, 2021)

My new favorite word is now snob.  I have been called many names on this forum after 10 years, but snob is not one of them thank God.  A snob(s) type of parent on a youth soccer B.O.D. spells trouble for the lower class parents with a lower class child.  We will fix this after the snobs have no say.  A snob TM can even be worse for those born on other side of the tracks or with much less.  Yes, the snob(s) stole soccer from the rest of us.


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## GoldenGate (Dec 28, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> What I find find funny about youth soccer that has been identified in this thread. It's not just the "snob" factor it's also the jerkoffs that want to make themselves feel better by dumping on or excluding others. That's really why they "hate" HS soccer. HS soccer is something they cant control. With clubs you can control the team by influencing the parents + once the parents group together they can control the coach. (If this doesnt work just throw $$$ at them with "privates")


WTF kind of gibberish are you talking about?  Only dumb American soccer people could possibly think that having more options to play soccer at more price points and more different levels than just about anywhere in the world constitutes some nefarious plot to "control" youth soccer.  Or maybe you are right.  Maybe all of you soccer people are really so fucking dumb that even a youth soccer parent can "control" you, the rest of the parents and your kid's soccer coach. BTW, who exactly is leading this nefarious plot?  And what, exactly are they controlling?  The world?  The most important sport ever created? The very lives and futures of our children?  Or are you irrationally overreacting because you're (ironically) upset that you can't control the families that don't give a shit about propping yours up on a shitty HS soccer team, so therefore it must be a matter of great national importance?


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## Carlsbad7 (Dec 28, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> WTF kind of gibberish are you talking about?  Only dumb American soccer people could possibly think that having more options to play soccer at more price points and more different levels than just about anywhere in the world constitutes some nefarious plot to "control" youth soccer.  Or maybe you are right.  Maybe all of you soccer people are really so fucking dumb that even a youth soccer parent can "control" you, the rest of the parents and your kid's soccer coach. BTW, who exactly is leading this nefarious plot?  And what, exactly are they controlling?  The world?  The most important sport ever created? The very lives and futures of our children?  Or are you irrationally overreacting because you're (ironically) upset that you can't control the families that don't give a shit about propping yours up on a shitty HS soccer team, so therefore it must be a matter of great national importance?


Looks like I struck a chord. (This means I wrote something that bothered you so much you felt the need to respond. This kids call this being triggered)

Maybe I'm right, maybe you're wrong. Maybe a little of both.


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## Ellejustus (Dec 28, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Looks like I struck a chord. (This means I wrote something that bothered you so much you felt the need to respond. This kids call this being triggered)
> 
> Maybe I'm right, maybe you're wrong. Maybe a little of both.


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## GoldenGate (Dec 29, 2021)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Looks like I struck a chord. (This means I wrote something that bothered you so much you felt the need to respond. This kids call this being triggered)
> 
> Maybe I'm right, maybe you're wrong. Maybe a little of both.


No, the problem here is clearly that you're upset that you can't control other people that you need to prop up your kid's crappy HS soccer team, or you're upset that you get what you pay for, or probably both.  If I'm wrong, please explain exactly who is upset about not being able to "control" HS soccer and what, exactly do they even want to "control" about it?


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## Lightning Red (Dec 29, 2021)

This has to be one of the best threads in the last 4 years. I’ve been here for a minute.
HS Soccer can be an outlet for the kids to take a break and have some fun for the school and community.  Maybe they get a chance to play with friends that they haven’t had that opportunity with. The kids all have choices.  If they think it’s terrible “don’t play”. It’s that simple.  It’s their choice. If it’s yours than you already failed. Bottom line is there are plenty of D1 players out there playing in HS right now in So Cal.
I’be seen plenty of ECNL & GA kids out there that already are committed. Why would they continue playing you ask?  To each his own and let the kids do what they want. If you don’t allow for it they will play for the wrong reasons. Love the game our kids play & most of all let them enjoy it.

& I forgot what that AssHoles name was on this forum that said my kid(s) would never wear another jersey I would have to pay for. You were wrong.  This just shows you the quality of people on here looking for advice, or better yet, trying to give it.


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## Ellejustus (Dec 30, 2021)

Lightning Red said:


> This has to be one of the best threads in the last 4 years. I’ve been here for a minute.
> HS Soccer can be an outlet for the kids to take a break and have some fun for the school and community.  Maybe they get a chance to play with friends that they haven’t had that opportunity with. The kids all have choices.  If they think it’s terrible “don’t play”. It’s that simple.  It’s their choice. If it’s yours than you already failed. Bottom line is there are plenty of D1 players out there playing in HS right now in So Cal.
> I’be seen plenty of ECNL & GA kids out there that already are committed. Why would they continue playing you ask?  To each his own and let the kids do what they want. If you don’t allow for it they will play for the wrong reasons. Love the game our kids play & most of all let them enjoy it.
> 
> & I forgot what that AssHoles name was on this forum that said my kid(s) would never wear another jersey I would have to pay for. You were wrong.  This just shows you the quality of people on here looking for advice, or better yet, trying to give it.


I'm hounding out 2021 awards for the forum this year.  You get the "Best Post" of the year award bro.  Excellent response; Let the kids choose.  I see some really good D1 players playing HSS and being a leaders on the team and helping the team be a team of soccer players


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## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 30, 2021)

This site is full of elitist ECNL parents that crap on everything that’s not related to their “high level soccer” world.   I have news for you all, what are you going to do when your kid is done playing sports?   Let them play high school soccer and enjoy it.   Who gives a crap about the quality.  I know more kids that didn’t make it to ECNL but have their life together once they graduate college.  All those trophies mean nothing once they apply to a real job.    I have several nephews/nieces  that were star athletes and cannot adjust once their athletic careers are over.   

Enjoy that high school soccer game because you don’t have too many years left before your kid is no longer playing soccer


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## Ellejustus (Dec 30, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> *This site is full of elitist ECNL parents* that crap on everything that’s not related to their “high level soccer” world.   I have news for you all, what are you going to do when your kid is done playing sports?   Let them play high school soccer and enjoy it.   Who gives a crap about the quality.  I know more kids that didn’t make it to ECNL but have their life together once they graduate college.  All those trophies mean nothing once they apply to a real job.    I have several nephews/nieces  that were star athletes and cannot adjust once their athletic careers are over.
> 
> Enjoy that high school soccer game because you don’t have too many years left before your kid is no longer playing soccer


Boom!  I think the key to any individual woman's true freedom is being allowed to make decisions for themselves as teenage girls.  Most of the girls want to play HSS before their Freshman year.  Trust me, it's true.  It's after the talk with the head Doc at their Elite Club, then the head coach and then dad that the toon can change.  After those three chime in, the player comes back to her new HS friends and tells them all, "HSS play is awful, the coach sucks, the program sucks and besides, I can get hurt and if I get hurt, my dad's dreams for my life are shattered."  MOO, this is not a great way to make new friends as a Freshman.   My dd got to ball with Reilyn Turner as a Freshman and as a new student to the school.  She took my kid under her wing and was amazing, 100% helped my dd navigate tough waters at a new school.  A great mentor to my kid and we thank her for that and I will be buying one of her shirts.  She is a blast to watch and she played HSS.  Go UCLA.  I bet they win it all in 2022.
Lastly, I know a mom who played club soccer and then went off to play in college.  Met the man of her dreams in college and got married and had kids and now her three dds all play soccer and all are expected to do what mom did, play in college, meet the her man and have kids and repeat. Soccer, soccer, soccer, no boy friend, then college, married, stay home mom and sit still look pretty and then repeat.  Not all girls want that life and if you give freedom, you will find out what they truly want and some will become Queens without needing no King!!!


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## graciesdad (Dec 30, 2021)

My DD plays HS soccer and loves it. Yes, the quality of play is lesser than her club team but she is doing what she wants to do. You cannot replace playing with your HS classmates versus the revolving door club roster every season. Isn't our ultimate goal as parents is to have well rounded, strong and diverse daughters?


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## Ellejustus (Dec 30, 2021)

graciesdad said:


> My DD plays HS soccer and loves it. Yes, the quality of play is lesser than her club team but she is doing what she wants to do. You cannot replace playing with your HS classmates versus the revolving door club roster every season.* Isn't our ultimate goal as parents is to have well rounded, strong and diverse daughters?*


Yes, yes, yes!!!


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## Ellejustus (Dec 30, 2021)

Blam, you get "Best Original Post" award for 2021.  Soccer is the Sport that the world loves and is free to play in most parts of the world.  I believe soccer will help heal the planet


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## Kicker 2.0 (Dec 30, 2021)

Lightning Red said:


> This has to be one of the best threads in the last 4 years. I’ve been here for a minute.
> HS Soccer can be an outlet for the kids to take a break and have some fun for the school and community.  Maybe they get a chance to play with friends that they haven’t had that opportunity with. The kids all have choices.  If they think it’s terrible “don’t play”. It’s that simple.  It’s their choice. If it’s yours than you already failed. Bottom line is there are plenty of D1 players out there playing in HS right now in So Cal.
> I’be seen plenty of ECNL & GA kids out there that already are committed. Why would they continue playing you ask?  To each his own and let the kids do what they want. If you don’t allow for it they will play for the wrong reasons. Love the game our kids play & most of all let them enjoy it.
> 
> & I forgot what that AssHoles name was on this forum that said my kid(s) would never wear another jersey I would have to pay for. You were wrong.  This just shows you the quality of people on here looking for advice, or better yet, trying to give it.


You pretty much nailed it.  The quality of play is subpar, but my kids aren’t playing for the competition or “trophies”, but the opportunity to share the field for the first time in their “careers”.  

There are definitely schools that take pride in their Girls Soccer programs and it shows, but sadly those are in the minority (unfortunately).

For our area, HS is not about developing as a better soccer player, but more about the community experience and there Is nothing wrong with that.


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## Ellejustus (Dec 30, 2021)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You pretty much nailed it.  The quality of play is subpar, but my kids aren’t playing for the competition or “trophies”, but the opportunity to share the field for the first time in their “careers”.
> 
> There are definitely schools that take pride in their Girls Soccer programs and it shows, but sadly those are in the minority (unfortunately).
> 
> For our area, HS is not about developing as a better soccer player, but more about the community experience and there Is nothing wrong with that.


Now your talking like a champ, if your the original Kicker.  Subpar is way better then awful......lol.  My dd U6 AYSO league champs trophy is still on our shelf and it was the first of many championships for my dd in youth soccer.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 1, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> This site is full of elitist ECNL parents that crap on everything that’s not related to their “high level soccer” world.   I have news for you all, what are you going to do when your kid is done playing sports?   Let them play high school soccer and enjoy it.   Who gives a crap about the quality.  I know more kids that didn’t make it to ECNL but have their life together once they graduate college.  All those trophies mean nothing once they apply to a real job.    I have several nephews/nieces  that were star athletes and cannot adjust once their athletic careers are over.
> 
> Enjoy that high school soccer game because you don’t have too many years left before your kid is no longer playing soccer


The problem here isn't "elitist ECNL parents".  In fact I am not aware of anyone at this forum either currently or in the past - with the exception of simisoccerfan - who has ever claimed they were too good for HS soccer.  I don't think anyone in this thread has recommended kids shouldn't play HS soccer, they have only pointed out that the quality of play is terrible and that it is hard to watch, and that is a fact.  Even then, they only did so because they were trying to explain why hardly anyone ever watches a boys HS soccer game.  Recognizing that a HS sport is hard to watch and the quality of play is low is very different than "crapping on everything that's not related to their 'high level of soccer' world."

The irony of all of this is that the only elitist folks in this thread are those who are complaining that other people aren't doing what they want, namely not playing or watching HS soccer either because they prefer football or just don't want to play a low level soccer.  In fact, this entire thread was premised on HS soccer people upset that their sport is better than football so football but doesn't get the same respect, and wanting to control others by making them play it when they don't want to.  And you don't even realize it, but you're the elitist in that you're concocting a group of non-existent "elitist ECNL parents" who don't even exist at this forum who are allegedly trying to subvert HS soccer when not a single person here has done anything of the sort - other than simisoccerfan years ago.  In fact, I suspect even those who recognize the obvious - that HS soccer is really hard to watch - know that because their kids actually played it and they supported their kids in doing so.  I certainly do.

The self-pity and lack of self-awareness of soccer people is really off the hook.  All of you need to stop whining that people should watch HS boys soccer instead of football because soccer is better, when it clearly is not. People aren't watching HS football and basketball instead of HS soccer due to some nefarious plot or because American culture is anti-soccer.  No, they do it because HS football and basketball are a lot more fun to watch than HS soccer, boys at least. And also stop labeling people "elitist ECNL parents" simply because they decided on a different path for their kid than yours.  You don't see them trying to dictate what your kid does, you and others here who are whining about HS football and kids who elect to forego HS soccer are the only ones trying to tell others what are best for their kids.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jan 3, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> The problem here isn't "elitist ECNL parents".


On this site over the past 6 years, Ive heard the following from ECNL parents:

- High School Soccer is trash
- ODP is a joke 
- GAL is not good
- MLS Next for boys is not better than ECNL
- College Soccer is trash 
- ECRL is better than GAL 
- Forget about Discovery level or Flight 1
- SoCal has the best teams and players  and why do we have to play teams outside of this state.


All good, good luck with your player this year.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jan 3, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I have news for you all, what are you going to do when your kid is done playing sports?   Let them play high school soccer and enjoy it.   Who gives a crap about the quality.  I know more kids that didn’t make it to ECNL but have their life together once they graduate college.  All those trophies mean nothing once they apply to a real job.


Wait, my kid's not going to go pro and play for Barca by 16?

/s


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## OrangeCountyDad (Jan 4, 2022)

blam said:


> Soccer needs to be a fall sport or a spring sport. We need to bring on the marching bands, the cheerleaders and the crowds to the games. There needs to be more pom pom.


I'm not going to read all the replies, but since this completely veered off course I'll do my small part to swing it back slightly.


I think there are a few challenges. one is field space. Many schools just don't have a lot of field space to allow teams to practice or play games. so you have to squeeze it in when you can, primarily after football, before lacrosse, before baseball. My kid's team would walk a block to a nearby elementary school on some days just so all 3 teams could have field space.

For crowd sizes, yes the 'event' of football doesn't translate well to soccer, and doesn't have a tradition of pep bands like football does. Maybe you could get a band director to show up? but they're burnt from marching season by the time football is over and they want a break too (source: 1 kid was in band, the other played soccer). A large chunk of HS football crowd is family and friends. A soccer roster is just so much smaller, so even when the parents show up it's 30 maybe 40 people per side. Football is what 40 person roster?

For my kid's high school soccer the problem was really kickoff time. even varsity many times would play at 3pm, 4pm. One game per season against the cross town rival would be a night game. 

But as you said, it would go a long way if the boys would attend the girl's games, and vice versa. Same goes for any activity. I remember one year at my kid's school the football coach gave off-season football players extra credit for attending an orchestra concert. Band supports them all season, it was only fair he said that they show up for one show.

I think a small part of it, at least in southern california, we are not generally a culture that supports lower league teams. USL, NISA, ECHL, WCHL, whatever else you want to name. Attendance is low at those events. High School soccer viewing is not a much different mindset.

Could it change? yes. but it would take a lot of lift from activity directors, ADs, opposite-gender coaches, the entire student body. Games are not always held in stadiums so that presents it's own problems. 

As participation in football wanes, it is in teams' and schools' best interest to find other activities to raise student body engagement.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jan 4, 2022)

OrangeCountyDad said:


> I'm not going to read all the replies, but since this completely veered off course I'll do my small part to swing it back slightly.
> 
> 
> I think there are a few challenges. one is field space. Many schools just don't have a lot of field space to allow teams to practice or play games. so you have to squeeze it in when you can, primarily after football, before lacrosse, before baseball. My kid's team would walk a block to a nearby elementary school on some days just so all 3 teams could have field space.
> ...


Excellent points.  I say soccer should be in the Spring and keep it to JV and Varsity only for most schools.  Soccer in the Winter cold sucks!!!


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jan 4, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Wait, my kid's not going to go pro and play for Barca by 16?
> 
> /s


I had a friend who thought his kid from an upper income neighborhood was going to be an amazing basketball player when he was just starting high school.  This kid was one of the best players in the valley in middle school. The club team decided to  play a tournament in Compton and my friend realized that his son's NBA career prospects were over once he played  against the inner city kids that were all over 6 feet at just a young age of 13.


----------



## Eagle33 (Jan 4, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> Excellent points.  I say soccer should be in the Spring and keep it to JV and Varsity only for most schools.  Soccer in the Winter cold sucks!!!


What happened to my brudda Crush???


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## Ellejustus (Jan 4, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I had a friend who thought his kid from an upper income neighborhood was going to be an amazing basketball player when he was just starting high school.  This kid was one of the best players in the valley in middle school. The club team decided to  play a tournament in Compton and my friend realized that his son's NBA career prospects were over once he played  against the inner city kids that were all over 6 feet at just a young age of 13.


Hahahaha.  This was so me back in the day at the LB Boys & Girls Club before I got to HS and wondered outside of my OC protected bubble.  Not upper income, just dreamed it.  Fast forward to freshman year of HS Hoops season.  I worked hard and busted my ass and dove for anything.  I took charges and was just a pest for the big guys.  The Varsity coach at the time appreciated my my hard work and invited me to play with the Varsity at The LBHS Christmas Classic.  At this stage in my ego, I was 100% going to UCLA and then be drafted by the Lakers.  It was all planned in my head and my adopted mommy & daddy told me I can do whatever I so desire.  Our first game happen to be the Long Beach Poly Jack Rabbits.  I got in the game towards the end of the mismatch but saw plenty from the front row bench that I was NEVER going to play for UCLA or the Lakers.  My dream was over.  I decided to go for Pro baseball player but Capo's pitchers told me I sucked because I couldn't hit the curve ball.  I was honest with myself


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## Ellejustus (Jan 4, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> What happened to my brudda Crush???


He got suspended for foul language and ego issues.


----------



## Carlsbad7 (Jan 4, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> Hahahaha.  This was so me back in the day at the LB Boys & Girls Club before I got to HS and wondered outside of my OC protected bubble.  Not upper income, just dreamed it.  Fast forward to freshman year of HS Hoops season.  I worked hard and busted my ass and dove for anything.  I took charges and was just a pest for the big guys.  The Varsity coach at the time appreciated my my hard work and invited me to play with the Varsity at The LBHS Christmas Classic.  At this stage in my ego, I was 100% going to UCLA and then be drafted by the Lakers.  It was all planned in my head and my adopted mommy & daddy told me I can do whatever I so desire.  Our first game happen to be the Long Beach Poly Jack Rabbits.  I got in the game towards the end of the mismatch but saw plenty from the front row bench that I was NEVER going to play for UCLA or the Lakers.  My dream was over.  I decided to go for Pro baseball player but Capo's pitchers told me I sucked because I couldn't hit the curve ball.  I was honest with myself


I had a similar experience in Lacrosse. Played HS then Club in collage. My younger brother was 6'6" and was able to convert that into a spot on the University of Denver Lacrosse team (In the soccer world this would be equivalent to UCLA). He invited me down to hang out + the guys on the team said to bring my equipment for a session.

All I can say was OMG were these guys good. Everyone was as big as me even the "short" fast guys and all the Defenders were 3-6" taller. The speed that they played was incredible. It felt like for every step I took they had taken 2. Different trick shots, etc that I could hit 1 out of every 6x they hit consistently every time.

Every player needs to go through this type of experience once to set their expectations to what playing at the highest levels is really like. Once you see it things become much more clear.


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## SoulTrain (Jan 4, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You pretty much nailed it.  The quality of play is subpar, but my kids aren’t playing for the competition or “trophies”, but the opportunity to share the field for the first time in their “careers”.
> 
> There are definitely schools that take pride in their Girls Soccer programs and it shows, but sadly those are in the minority (unfortunately).
> 
> For our area, HS is not about developing as a better soccer player, but more about the community experience and there Is nothing wrong with that.


I keep reading about how awful high school soccer is.  On the girls side in San Diego last year, I watched a CIF Open Championship game that had at least 10 girls that are currently or will be playing D1 soccer year.  Every girl starting on both TP and LCC was good enough to start for any D3 school in the US.  Yes, many of the high school teams play over the top, long ball soccer as opposed to their ECNL/GAL/SoCal Champions League teams but I've watched plenty of decent D1 schools that play the exact same style.  Does it make it less enjoyable to watch?  Absolutely not.  In fact I'd much rather watch that type of play with kids that I've known since elementary school than watching our cut-throat club team where girls are driving in from all over San Diego and Orange County and I hardly get to know their names before they are off to the next shiny penny.  Just one dad's opinion.


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## dk_b (Jan 4, 2022)

SoulTrain said:


> I keep reading about how awful high school soccer is.  On the girls side in San Diego last year, I watched a CIF Open Championship game that had at least 10 girls that are currently or will be playing D1 soccer year.  Every girl starting on both TP and LCC was good enough to start for any D3 school in the US.  Yes, many of the high school teams play over the top, long ball soccer as opposed to their ECNL/GAL/SoCal Champions League teams but I've watched plenty of decent D1 schools that play the exact same style.  Does it make it less enjoyable to watch?  Absolutely not.  In fact I'd much rather watch that type of play with kids that I've known since elementary school than watching our cut-throat club team where girls are driving in from all over San Diego and Orange County and I hardly get to know their names before they are off to the next shiny penny.  Just one dad's opinion.


I enjoy watching HS soccer, even this year that my twins are rehabbing ACL tears. Why? For the reasons you articulate. I enjoyed watching their older sister play ECNL, play HS and now play college. And I also enjoyed watching all my kids play back in the micro days.

Look, I'm someone who will go watch my friends' and family members' kids play really low level sports (guy I worked with has a kid playing t-ball?  What time is the game?  Woman I went college with has a kid lacing up the skates? When does the puck drop? Soccer teammate of my twins is playing a club lacrosse game down the street? I'm there!).  It's all about expectations. I don't expect La Liga, just as I don't expect French Laundry if I go to Chili's. But I can still find enjoyment at whatever level (cold beer, a good game on the TV and some chili fries . . . sounds good to me).


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## Ellejustus (Jan 4, 2022)

SoulTrain said:


> I keep reading about how awful high school soccer is.  On the girls side in San Diego last year, I watched a CIF Open Championship game that had at least 10 girls that are currently or will be playing D1 soccer year.  Every girl starting on both TP and LCC was good enough to start for any D3 school in the US.  Yes, many of the high school teams play over the top, long ball soccer as opposed to their ECNL/GAL/SoCal Champions League teams but I've watched plenty of decent D1 schools that play the exact same style.  Does it make it less enjoyable to watch?  Absolutely not.  In fact I'd much rather watch that type of play with kids that I've known since elementary school than watching our cut-throat club team where girls are driving in from all over San Diego and Orange County and I hardly get to know their names before they are off to the next shiny penny.  Just one dad's opinion.


Boom!!


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## Ellejustus (Jan 4, 2022)

dk_b said:


> I enjoy watching HS soccer, even this year that my twins are rehabbing ACL tears. Why? For the reasons you articulate. I enjoyed watching their older sister play ECNL, play HS and now play college. And I also enjoyed watching all my kids play back in the micro days.
> 
> Look, I'm someone who will go watch my friends' and family members' kids play really low level sports (guy I worked with has a kid playing t-ball?  What time is the game?  Woman I went college with has a kid lacing up the skates? When does the puck drop? Soccer teammate of my twins is playing a club lacrosse game down the street? I'm there!).  It's all about expectations. I don't expect La Liga, just as I don't expect French Laundry if I go to Chili's. But I can still find enjoyment at whatever level (cold beer, a good game on the TV and some chili fries . . . sounds good to me).


My ex HSS hoops teammate never left our city and goes to soccer games, basketball games and baseball games.  He walks over from his crib and just loves to cheer on the local home team.  I saw at our last game.  I can;t imagine him saying to me, "Hey bro, this is awful soccer I'm leaving."  No way he would ever do that.


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## graciesdad (Jan 5, 2022)

SoulTrain said:


> I keep reading about how awful high school soccer is.  On the girls side in San Diego last year, I watched a CIF Open Championship game that had at least 10 girls that are currently or will be playing D1 soccer year.  Every girl starting on both TP and LCC was good enough to start for any D3 school in the US.  Yes, many of the high school teams play over the top, long ball soccer as opposed to their ECNL/GAL/SoCal Champions League teams but I've watched plenty of decent D1 schools that play the exact same style.  Does it make it less enjoyable to watch?  Absolutely not.  In fact I'd much rather watch that type of play with kids that I've known since elementary school than watching our cut-throat club team where girls are driving in from all over San Diego and Orange County and I hardly get to know their names before they are off to the next shiny penny.  Just one dad's opinion.


Right on point. What do expect when you put 15-20 players together for two weeks of practice versus a club team that trains all year or years? Easy solution, ball over the top, run it down and shoot the ball. I would never expect "club style" buildouts in this scenario. Good Team!


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jan 5, 2022)

graciesdad said:


> Right on point. What do expect when you put 15-20 players together for two weeks of practice versus a club team that trains all year or years? Easy solution, ball over the top, run it down and shoot the ball. I would never expect "club style" buildouts in this scenario. Good Team!


 Agree!  
Compare Chelsea fc vs Liverpool this past weekend to one of the copa  America games between Argentina and Colombia or Brazil va Uruguay.    The quality of play is not great compared to the professional club teams.  At least this is the case in the first few games of any international tournament.    The lack of training as a unit makes it difficult to match club level soccer.


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## Simisoccerfan (Jan 6, 2022)

As long as the NFL, NBA, and MLB exist soccer will never get the priority at the youth level.   Too much money, power and politics involved.   Women's sports generally get a small fraction of viewership that even mediocre men's sports get.  On the boy's soccer side youth soccer in SoCal is dominated by Hispanic players and their supporters just don't have the political power yet that they should have to demand equal access to facilities that other sports enjoy.   I wish it was different but though soccer is making slow progress I don't envision soccer being a top HS sport anytime soon with cheerleaders and playing in a warmer season.


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## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2022)

Simisoccerfan said:


> As long as the NFL, NBA, and MLB exist soccer will never get the priority at the youth level.   Too much money, power and politics involved.   Women's sports generally get a small fraction of viewership that even mediocre men's sports get.  On the boy's soccer side youth soccer in SoCal is dominated by Hispanic players and their supporters just don't have the political power yet that they should have to demand equal access to facilities that other sports enjoy.   I wish it was different but though soccer is making slow progress I don't envision soccer being a top HS sport anytime soon with cheerleaders and playing in a warmer season.



There are multiple problem with baseball on all levels (major leagues, minor leagues, youth).  Soccer should have passed MLB baseball by now but due to its own problems it will still likely take some time (unless baseball magically reforms itself at all levels).

Gridiron football too has had issues from declining participation to the concussion problems to the politics, but you are right, it's a very powerful sport.  Basketball isn't going anywhere.  Soccer, at least for the men, will be the no. 3 sport for a long time to come.









						Strike Three: Baseball Is Dead
					

Baseball has declined in popularity, and that will have a long-lasting effect on the culture at large. Years from now, a young child will ask, "Grandpa, what was baseball?"




					howtheyplay.com


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## Simisoccerfan (Jan 7, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> There are multiple problem with baseball on all levels (major leagues, minor leagues, youth).  Soccer should have passed MLB baseball by now but due to its own problems it will still likely take some time (unless baseball magically reforms itself at all levels).
> 
> Gridiron football too has had issues from declining participation to the concussion problems to the politics, but you are right, it's a very powerful sport.  Basketball isn't going anywhere.  Soccer, at least for the men, will be the no. 3 sport for a long time to come.
> 
> ...


It is ambitious to say men's soccer in the US is the No 3 sport.  More like No 6 (maybe).  NHL and MLB annually TV contract is at least double of the MLS contract.  Nascar, Football and NFL is 10's of times higher.  Golf is higher than MLS.  So actually maybe No 7 unless you include the Olympics.  I think if you include the EPL US rights and other European leagues it is still not in the top 5.


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## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2022)

Simisoccerfan said:


> It is ambitious to say men's soccer in the US is the No 3 sport.  More like No 6 (maybe).  NHL and MLB annually TV contract is at least double of the MLS contract.  Nascar, Football and NFL is 10's of times higher.  Golf is higher than MLS.  So actually maybe No 7 unless you include the Olympics.  I think if you include the EPL US rights and other European leagues it is still not in the top 5.


Fair point re the NHL though the closure of ice rinks in the South and West over the last decade has also impacted that sport.

As to Nascar/Golf/Tennis while certainly sports, I don't think it's fair to compare them to team sports, which are quite a different animal.


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## way up (Jan 8, 2022)

Very interesting thread here. I don't even know what dd is, but I have a feeling that my daughter is my dd. I like to learn a bit about what's to come for a young lady (10 years old) with this sport. I think this thread has exposed several of the challenges with soccer in America. The 2 I can't help, but focus on are:

#1. sport popularity (viewership, audience)
#2. club soccer dominance for upward mobility

American Football pays the bills for many other sports and activities in high school and college. People pay money to watch football. My opinion is that to help women make more money playing soccer, you need to get more people to pay money to watch it or at least watch it on the t.v. I learned to love watching women's college soccer even more so than men. I am invested with my own daughter of course, but I have developed a love for women's soccer as a man (dad). This is what I think we need to focus on. We need an ambassador of marketing to expand women's soccer viewership somehow.

I kind of agree with the beginning post here though and there are advantages to American Football with the season and existing popularity. I am rushed here, because I can't wait to go watch my daughter's team and other team's play at the 10 year old level. I think the more you love the sport, the more you don't care about the level of play.

I'm a solution guy and would really love to see soccer grow as a sport in America especially for women's soccer and can't help, but wonder if the dominance of club soccer where viewership/audience is going to be less vs high school reduces the potential for growing the popularity of soccer. American Football also has a huge advantage with the number of players with families. There are more than 50 players on a high school football team and like 10 or more coaches. They have an instant audience of 200 plus people ONE EACH SIDE before spectators are even counted.

I wish we had a soccer ambassador in America and if we currently do, I'm not so sure they are doing it well??


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## espola (Jan 8, 2022)

way up said:


> Very interesting thread here. I don't even know what dd is, but I have a feeling that my daughter is my dd. I like to learn a bit about what's to come for a young lady (10 years old) with this sport. I think this thread has exposed several of the challenges with soccer in America. The 2 I can't help, but focus on are:
> 
> #1. sport popularity (viewership, audience)
> #2. club soccer dominance for upward mobility
> ...


Perhaps 20 colleges have profitable football programs.  Maybe in Texas a popular school football turns a profit, but I have seen nothing in California high schools that would lead me to believe any of them turn a profit.  









						Growth in Division I athletics expenses outpaces revenue increases
					

Revenue generated by athletics through ticket sales, broadcast agreements and other sources continues to rise among Division I schools, but athletics-related expenses




					www.ncaa.org


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 9, 2022)

way up said:


> Very interesting thread here. I don't even know what dd is, but I have a feeling that my daughter is my dd. I like to learn a bit about what's to come for a young lady (10 years old) with this sport. I think this thread has exposed several of the challenges with soccer in America. The 2 I can't help, but focus on are:
> 
> #1. sport popularity (viewership, audience)
> #2. club soccer dominance for upward mobility
> ...


DD is darling daughter. It’s a term that has been used on the forum here for a very long time.


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## SoccerJones (Jan 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Perhaps 20 colleges have profitable football programs.  Maybe in Texas a popular school football turns a profit, but I have seen nothing in California high schools that would lead me to believe any of them turn a profit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it's true that at the D1 level, very few (I think it was like 70 out of 300) make a profit.  As for high schools, there are a high number of programs that do make good money (it'd be interesting to see if this was the case in the covid years) in Norcal and Socal.  Many come from the Trinity league and there are quite a few that pack the stands at the high school level.  

I would agree that Texas football is king in the USA


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## Yak (Jan 10, 2022)

Iwould 


SoccerJones said:


> Yes it's true that at the D1 level, very few (I think it was like 70 out of 300) make a profit.  As for high schools, there are a high number of programs that do make good money (it'd be interesting to see if this was the case in the covid years) in Norcal and Socal.  Many come from the Trinity league and there are quite a few that pack the stands at the high school level.
> 
> I would agree that Texas football is king in the USA


Football is king in Texas but Texas isn't king in high school football.  There are 4 SoCal teams in the top 10, more than any other state, including Mater Dei at #1.


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## espola (Jan 10, 2022)

SoccerJones said:


> Yes it's true that at the D1 level, very few (I think it was like 70 out of 300) make a profit.  As for high schools, there are a high number of programs that do make good money (it'd be interesting to see if this was the case in the covid years) in Norcal and Socal.  Many come from the Trinity league and there are quite a few that pack the stands at the high school level.
> 
> I would agree that Texas football is king in the USA


More like 25 colleges have profitable football programs.









						Do Colleges Make Money From Athletics? | BestColleges
					

Although college sports play a big role in bringing in money for universities, they rarely generate a positive net revenue — especially in light of COVID-19.




					www.bestcolleges.com
				




"Pack the stands" is meaningless without knowing stadium size and ticket prices, and whether they turn a profit depends on knowing the expenses.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jan 10, 2022)

College Football is advertising more than anything for most schools. I'm sure the PHD eggheads hate it but they also realize that it's something the kids like so it's a necessary evil.

Regarding soccer instead of continuing to force the field game on people. Colleges should focus on a collegiate level Futsal league utilizing the indoor basketball courts when they're not in use for basketball / volleyball / etc. Give people a more consumable taste of the action / suspense. Then once they're hooked the field game will make more sense.


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## espola (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> College Football is advertising more than anything for most schools. I'm sure the PHD eggheads hate it but they also realize that it's something the kids like so it's a necessary evil.
> 
> Regarding soccer instead of continuing to force the field game on people. Colleges should focus on a collegiate level Futsal league utilizing the indoor basketball courts when they're not in use for basketball / volleyball / etc. Give people a more consumable taste of the action / suspense. Then once they're hooked the field game will make more sense.


I'm sure those PhD eggheads think that colleges are founded to educate their students or something like that.


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## timbuck (Jan 10, 2022)

Quick HS soccer comment.  Our HS has a solid soccer program.  Varsity is stacked with ECNL, GA, etc players. But we also have a pretty big roster.
At our game on Thursday, only about 14 of the 22 rostered players saw the field.  Would those 8 other players be better off skipping HS and training with their club (assuming these 8 players want to play in college).


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## Carlsbad7 (Jan 10, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm sure those PhD eggheads think that colleges are founded to educate their students or something like that.


Education shouldn't be limited to books. The skills and tactics learned from working in a + on a team are just as important as what's taught in class.

Also they should serve beer in the stands.


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## whatithink (Jan 10, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Quick HS soccer comment.  Our HS has a solid soccer program.  Varsity is stacked with ECNL, GA, etc players. But we also have a pretty big roster.
> At our game on Thursday, only about 14 of the 22 rostered players saw the field.  Would those 8 other players be better off skipping HS and training with their club (assuming these 8 players want to play in college).


If the team is that stacked, wouldn't they be better off practicing with all those (better than them) ECNL/GA players and trying to get a starting slot, versus practicing with a few club players in meaningless sessions.

For ref, my son's HS team is pretty stacked with letter league players and he's said that practices are more intense than club as everyone is always trying to be a starter and/or max. minutes. His club team would prob. beat his HS team, but he gets more out of the HS practices. Its the opposite to what the club coaches tell him/me - in his instance only, I'm sure others have very different experiences.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jan 10, 2022)

whatithink said:


> If the team is that stacked, wouldn't they be better off practicing with all those (better than them) ECNL/GA players and trying to get a starting slot, versus practicing with a few club players in meaningless sessions.


That would depend on the quality of training offered at the HS versus Club sessions. 

For reference, my DD and 2 of her friends essentially run the HS training sessions.  No offense to my DD, but it’s pretty safe to assume the Club sessions are a bit more challenging.

Conversly, the Boys Varsity sessions are very well run and would say on par or better than current Club sessions.


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## whatithink (Jan 10, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That would depend on the quality of training offered at the HS versus Club sessions.
> 
> For reference, my DD and 2 of her friends essentially run the HS training sessions.  No offense to my DD, but it’s pretty safe to assume the Club sessions are a bit more challenging.


Agreed. Generally, from what I've seen, its a combo of a coach that knows what they are doing and kids that want to max what they get. In this instance, if the team is that loaded, I'd expect the second to be a given.


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## espola (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Education shouldn't be limited to books. The skills and tactics learned from working in a + on a team are just as important as what's taught in class.
> 
> Also they should serve beer in the stands.


I agree with the teamwork (and beer!).  However, there is something mildly corrupt about those situations where the football coach is the highest-paid employee of the college (and in most states, the highest paid public employee in the state).









						College coaches dominate list of highest-paid public employees with seven-digit salaries
					

College sports are major revenue engines at American schools, and coaches are often well compensated to maintain winning programs.



					www.usatoday.com


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## Ellejustus (Jan 10, 2022)

espola said:


> I agree with the teamwork (and beer!).  However, there is something mildly corrupt about those situations where the football coach is the highest-paid employee of the college (and in most states, the highest paid public employee in the state).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's get back to the Goose and why HS gave away all the gold that soccer can bring.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jan 10, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> Let's get back to the Goose and why HS gave away all the gold that soccer can bring.


How many professional games do you watch on a weekly basis?  Premier League, La Liga, MLS, NWSL, WSL (Women’s Super League)?

what “gold” is being given away if no one is watching? 

That is the biggest travesty….so many complaining about the state of the game and “pay to play” but don’t watch the games on TV/Streaming, go to games, shop their sponsors or buy Merch to financially support the game.  Yet want all the benefits.


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## Jar!23 (Jan 10, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Quick HS soccer comment.  Our HS has a solid soccer program.  Varsity is stacked with ECNL, GA, etc players. But we also have a pretty big roster.
> At our game on Thursday, only about 14 of the 22 rostered players saw the field.  Would those 8 other players be better off skipping HS and training with their club (assuming these 8 players want to play in college).


Is the big roster common?  Does the coach tell players who won't play in advance not to dress or are they expected to still show and sit on the bench?  Trying to learn about high school soccer since I have a middle schooler.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> There are multiple problem with baseball on all levels (major leagues, minor leagues, youth).  Soccer should have passed MLB baseball by now but due to its own problems it will still likely take some time (unless baseball magically reforms itself at all levels).
> 
> Gridiron football too has had issues from declining participation to the concussion problems to the politics, but you are right, it's a very powerful sport.  Basketball isn't going anywhere.  Soccer, at least for the men, will be the no. 3 sport for a long time to come.
> 
> ...


You are clueless.  Although people have been whining about MLB being a dying sport for decades, it generates the second highest revenue of any professional sports league in the world, more than the NBA, almost twice that of the Premier League and 10x that of MLS.  Before Covid-19, MLB revenue had increased every single year for at least 20 years.  Although MLB attendance has declined slightly in recent years, so too has attendance in every American professional league.  In fact, MLS attendance decreasing per game even more than the MLB in the last pre-Covid year.

Until dumb soccer people get past the idea that "soccer is so great everyone must watch even crappy versions instead of other sports" b.s., they will never understand why it is crazy to believe that soccer will ever surpass MLB in the U.S.  MLS soccer is barely watchable as a form of entertainment, and why on earth would anyone who isn't already a crazy soccer freak waste their time watching an MLS game anyway when they can watch much better quality soccer on TV being played overseas by players they know, care about and who are actually good?  Even those who go to MLS games will pick a Premier League game on tv over MLS every single time.  In other words, MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL fans only need to decide which sport they want to watch at any give time, while someone who is considering soccer must not only decide which sport to watch but also whether they want to watch a good version of it (e.g. Premier League or top teams in any other European League) or a shitty American one.  That is an impossible hurdle.


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## Ellejustus (Jan 10, 2022)

*Q & A with ElleJustus and Kicker 2.0  *​
*Let's bite together   I think we both come from two opposite sides of the planet and see things obviously from our own lens and backgrounds. Let's both agree on that ((you think we can agree on that?)) and finish what we started three and half years ago.  Let me answer your questions from my heart bro.

Kicker 2.0: *How many professional games do you watch on a weekly basis? 

*EJ:*  Zero!

*Kicker 2.0:  *Premier League, La Liga, MLS, NWSL, WSL (Women’s Super League)?

*EJ: *ZERO!  I only watch World Cup soccer & High School Soccer.  Maybe some day I'll a watch a woman's Li Liga game or two.  I hope to visit Spain some day 

*Kicker 2.0:*  what “gold” is being given away if no one is watching? 

*EJ: *The Gold I'm taking about is made from the inside of one's heart and not the "gold" your thinking about.  That's money and i dont give a shit about money today. 

*Kicker 2.0: *That is the biggest travesty….so many complaining about the state of the game and “pay to play”

*EJ: * No, the biggest travesty is people getting fired for........I don;t have money to pay to play bro either.  The last 5 years has been very hard on our family financially.  The game is a mess because only a few rich families can pay to play.  $15K a year is insane!!!  It is what it is.  Nothing is free I guess.  You pay for what you pay for.  On a side note; I wish your school took care of the females better in soccer and I mean that.  Props 100% to the girls who make it happen.  I'm more pissed about that Kicker

*Kicker 2.0:* Plus they, "don’t watch the games on TV/Streaming, go to games, shop their sponsors or buy Merch to financially support the game. 

*EJ:* No I don't!!!  Bro, I have no extra money to buy Merch and help support the pay to play system, where most of the Pro players are treated horribly and way under paid.  Sorry, it's the truth.  Again, you have the money to spend on all this and I don't. 

*Kicker 2.0: *Yet they want all the benefits

*EJ:*  Benefits?  My kid got locked out of the USGDA because she dared play HSS.  I can go on and on about all the other BS but I won't do that anymore.  I'm looking for men with a heart of gold and a brain that followers the truth


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jan 10, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> *Q & A with ElleJustus and Kicker 2.0  *​
> *Let's bite together   I think we both come from two opposite sides of the planet and see things obviously from our own lens and backgrounds. Let's both agree on that ((you think we can agree on that?)) and finish what we started three and half years ago.  Let me answer your questions from my heart bro.
> 
> Kicker 2.0: *How many professional games do you watch on a weekly basis?
> ...


You made your choices…..bought what the “snake oil” salesmen were selling and rubbed it in everyone’s faces till the hard reality set in.  

back to the topic at hand


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## Ellejustus (Jan 10, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> You made your choices…..*bought what the “snake oil” salesmen were selling* and rubbed it in everyone’s faces till the hard reality set in.
> 
> back to the topic at hand


Wow, after all these years you still just call "him" a snake oil salesman?  That's all he and the gang are to you?  Seriously?  Wow wow wow and some more wow.  Some day you will find out in detail what kind of "oil" he used to rub all his lies with.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> College Football is advertising more than anything for most schools. I'm sure the PHD eggheads hate it but they also realize that it's something the kids like so it's a necessary evil.
> 
> Regarding soccer instead of continuing to force the field game on people. Colleges should focus on a collegiate level Futsal league utilizing the indoor basketball courts when they're not in use for basketball / volleyball / etc. Give people a more consumable taste of the action / suspense. Then once they're hooked the field game will make more sense.


I totally see 18 year old college freshman who never liked soccer playing an esoteric version of it that relies even more heavily on technical ability that they lack.  I can't imagine anything that sounds like more fun than that.  It is surely a much better way to utilize a basketball court than, uh, basketball.


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## Simisoccerfan (Jan 10, 2022)

A dose of reality, no one is going to watch college futsal.  Likely fun to play but the idea that this will draw fans and lead them to watch the field game is not even a pipe dream.   Probably the best way to draw fans and increase revenue would be to sell beer at college soccer games.  This is being done more and more at football games, basketball games and even I hear the the baseball and softball world series.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jan 10, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I totally see 18 year old college freshman who never liked soccer playing an esoteric version of it that relies even more heavily on technical ability that they lack.  I can't imagine anything that sounds like more fun than that.  It is surely a much better way to utilize a basketball court than, uh, basketball.


If Ultimate Frisbee has a place on TV Futsal can as well.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> If Ultimate Frisbee has a place on TV Futsal can as well.


Yes, it has been amazing what televising ultimate frisbee has done for the sport.  No doubt it will soon pass MLB in popularity.  If ultimate frisbee can do it, the sky's the limit for what futsal on tv can do for soccer's popularity in the U.S.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> *Q & A with ElleJustus and Kicker 2.0  *​
> *Let's bite together   I think we both come from two opposite sides of the planet and see things obviously from our own lens and backgrounds. Let's both agree on that ((you think we can agree on that?)) and finish what we started three and half years ago.  Let me answer your questions from my heart bro.
> 
> Kicker 2.0: *How many professional games do you watch on a weekly basis?
> ...


That's a lot of words to say "I wish people would do whatever I want for free because I'm too lazy to get a job to pay for what things cost".


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> If Ultimate Frisbee has a place on TV Futsal can as well.


I just had this great idea.  When colleges aren't using basketball courts for basketball, they should set up a bunch of chess boards and televise the student matches on national television.  I'm sure chess will explode in popularity.  I mean if ultimate frisbee can get on television, there's no telling how popular chess will become.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jan 10, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I just had this great idea.  When colleges aren't using basketball courts for basketball, they should set up a bunch of chess boards and televise the student matches on national television.  I'm sure chess will explode in popularity.  I mean if ultimate frisbee can get on television, there's no telling how popular chess will become.


What I'm saying is that field soccer is hard for colleges/high schools to get behind because it's an outdoor sport that's usually a chess match between teams. Futsal is easy because it can be played year round + on existing facilities. Also, typically basketball courts have seating available for spectators. combine easy to attend from a spectatorship perspective + easy to setup from a college/high school perspective + potentially year round or between other sports off seasons and you have a way to "gateway" soccer into an American mindset.

I just used the ultimate frisbee example to show that Television will air anything. The trick is giving them content that can drive viewership because spectators are willing to watch an entire game (with commercials every 5 minutes).

Do you know the reason you see Pro Wrestling all the time on TV? WWE is based out of Hartford Connecticut what they do is setup events, film them, then package it all up so cable stations can slip advertising in every 5 minutes. For the most part WWE gives their content away to cable stations who in turn use it to drive advertising revenue. BTW this is the real reason you don't see soccer more on American TV. Outside of halftime cable channels can't stuff enough commercials into the content to make it viable. From a business perspective why pay for the rights to air Soccer when WWE content provides higher advertising revenue. This is where Futsal has an advantage. You have more action in general + more breaks for commercials.


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## GoldenGate (Jan 10, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> What I'm saying is that field soccer is hard for colleges/high schools to get behind because it's an outdoor sport that's usually a chess match between teams. Futsal is easy because it can be played year round + on existing facilities. Also, typically basketball courts have seating available for spectators. combine easy to attend from a spectatorship perspective + easy to setup from a college/high school perspective + potentially year round or between other sports off seasons and you have a way to "gateway" soccer into an American mindset.
> 
> I just used the ultimate frisbee example to show that Television will air anything. The trick is giving them content that can drive viewership because spectators are willing to watch an entire game (with commercials every 5 minutes).
> 
> Do you know the reason you see Pro Wrestling all the time on TV? WWE is based out of Hartford Connecticut what they do is setup events, film them, then package it all up so cable stations can slip advertising in every 5 minutes. For the most part WWE gives their content away to cable stations who in turn use it to drive advertising revenue. BTW this is the real reason you don't see soccer more on American TV. Outside of halftime cable channels can't stuff enough commercials into the content to make it viable. From a business perspective why pay for the rights to air Soccer when WWE content provides higher advertising revenue. This is where Futsal has an advantage. You have more action in general + more breaks for commercials.


Are you telling me I would be able to watch college students play futsal - who aren't good enough to even play college soccer - on tv ALL YEAR?!? Count me in!


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jan 11, 2022)

Simisoccerfan said:


> It is ambitious to say men's soccer in the US is the No 3 sport.  More like No 6 (maybe).  NHL and MLB annually TV contract is at least double of the MLS contract.  Nascar, Football and NFL is 10's of times higher.  Golf is higher than MLS.  So actually maybe No 7 unless you include the Olympics.  I think if you include the EPL US rights and other European leagues it is still not in the top 5.


1. NFL
2. College football
3. NBA
4. High school football
5. College basketball
6. MMA
7. E-sports
8. MLB
9. MLS
10. NHL


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jan 11, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You are clueless.  Although people have been whining about MLB being a dying sport for decades, it generates the second highest revenue of any professional sports league in the world, more than the NBA, almost twice that of the Premier League and 10x that of MLS.


Half Right on MLB.  Yes #2 global league at $10.7B.  No on double than Premier league. EPL is $7.3B . 










						Top 10 Largest Sports Leagues by Revenue 2020, Which Sport Makes the Most Money?
					

A complete ranking and breakdown of the top 10 largest sports leagues by revenue in 2020. Which sport makes the most money? NBA, NFL, MLB?




					blog.bizvibe.com
				






1NFL$16B2MLB$10.7B3NBA$8.8B4EPL7.35La Liga5.266NHL5.097Bundesliga4.748Serie A3.629UEFA Champions League3.31


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## GoldenGate (Jan 12, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Half Right on MLB.  Yes #2 global league at $10.7B.  No on double than Premier league. EPL is $7.3B .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2020 was an anomaly due to Covid-19.  MLB usually has a ton more in ticket revenue by virtue of the fact that they play 162 games.  It's closer to half when people can go to games.

Regardless, MLB is still the second largest league in the world.  It is not a dying sport as the unemployed equestrian claims.  It will never, ever be passed by MLS.


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## espola (Jan 12, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> 2020 was an anomaly due to Covid-19.  MLB usually has a ton more in ticket revenue by virtue of the fact that they play 162 games.  It's closer to half when people can go to games.
> 
> Regardless, MLB is still the second largest league in the world.  It is not a dying sport as the unemployed equestrian claims.  It will never, ever be passed by MLS.


Baseball has been dying as a sport since they instituted the DH.


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## Ellejustus (Jan 12, 2022)

espola said:


> Baseball has been dying as a sport since they instituted the DH.


Grumpy old man is wrong again.  That is false statement.  Baseball got way too corporate and sold out their seat to the highest pay to play business.  Mom and pop got knocked out and forced to watch live stream. I just got off the phone with old pal from a previous soccer team.  He had season tickets for years and then Fox came and them McFraud showed up after that.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jan 12, 2022)

Ellejustus said:


> Grumpy old man is wrong again.  That is false statement.  Baseball got way too corporate and sold out their seat to the highest pay to play business.  Mom and pop got knocked out and forced to watch live stream. I just got off the phone with old pal from a previous soccer team.  He had season tickets for years and then Fox came and them McFraud showed up after that.


Fewer fans and older fans will have an impact on baseball's revenues.  However, there's no other sport that plays 100+ games a season so they will continue to survive.  The amount of TV ads that you can get even with a smaller audience will drive revenue  to keep it as a top 3 sport in terms of revenue.


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## OrangeCountyDad (Jan 14, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> How many professional games do you watch on a weekly basis?  Premier League, La Liga, MLS, NWSL, WSL (Women’s Super League)?
> 
> what “gold” is being given away if no one is watching?
> 
> That is the biggest travesty….so many complaining about the state of the game and “pay to play” but don’t watch the games on TV/Streaming, go to games, shop their sponsors or buy Merch to financially support the game.  Yet want all the benefits.


it always blows me away how many people bemoan the state of soccer in america, how broken it is, but they won't support their local lower division, college, high school team.  They'll sure as hell be at the pub at 4am to watch a EFL Championship mid-season game tho!


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## OrangeCountyDad (Jan 14, 2022)

Jar!23 said:


> Is the big roster common?  Does the coach tell players who won't play in advance not to dress or are they expected to still show and sit on the bench?  Trying to learn about high school soccer since I have a middle schooler.


My kid's HS carried a big roster on 3 teams, but no, not everyone plays.  We were blessed with pretty good club players and a few national team U-whatever's over the years.  The coach's philosophy at Fr/Soph and JV level was to keep the girls in the program as long as he could in the first 2 years because many quit after their 4-semester PE requirement was done, but even on Varsity it was 20-some rostered players.  Between the compact schedule and inevitable injuries, he kept a big program as a contingency.  He also kept on kids, if they wanted to, as 'technical staff' especially seniors who wouldn't get play time and paid their dues for 3 years, goalkeepers who wouldn't play much, etc (one of those goalkeepers is now a youth coach, so it kept her 'in the family' so to speak)

(on the financial side, a larger squad means the financial team-burden is spread out over more families making it less than if it was just ~15-kid rosters)

He was also very honest and let girls know if they would/wouldn't get a lot of playing time and they could choose their path based on that. 

You can probably find parents in your area with experience with the current coach to know what to expect


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