# AYSO's Mike Hoyer: Youth soccer needs options between entry level and full travel/club commitment



## Vin (Jul 25, 2018)

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/78912/aysos-mike-hoyer-youth-soccer-needs-options-betw.html



*Chuck Coan*, July 24, 2018 at 2:32 p.m.
Last time I checked, every major youth soccer organization in the country was using computers to register their players. Why is it that we can not get a simple, straight answer on exactly how many players were registered at each age group in the major soccer associateons in the USA? State by state. So that the clubs can understand what kind of impact what they are doing is having on player retention. 
* I can tell you that focusing everything on the top of the pyramid has an extremely detrimental effect on the base. We just brought back our club from the brink of extinction. *2000 kids down to 500 because the board was made up of "classic, elite" players parents and that is where every dime of resource went as the rec/entry level program that built our club virtually disappeared. As the well went dry we were barely able to field a team at age group in the local competitive division! We are back to 1500, rec/entry level players are filtering into our academies and our classic division, which is still struggling, sees a brighter future starting next year as the academy kids begin to move up. 
In my opinion we started killing the sport in our regon when every club went to club wide tryouts and we began telling teams worth of young players that they were not good enough to play with us and pushed them to under resourced, poorly organized, poorly coached rec programs. One or 2 years of that and they found another sport or quit entirely! Throw the birth year debacle into the picture and the pace of departure accelerated. 
What is best for the players is the question that is never asked. As for the title of this piece, every club in this area provided mid level opportunities from 1980 to about 2000. After that there simply were not enough kids because they all had to be elite or their parents took them elsewhere like to the 12 new clubs claiming they were elite! Which is why elite soccer is not. the kids playing "elite" soccer are the ones whose parents can afford it and support it. If you don't have both pieces, you have nothing. All the skill and athleticism means absolutely nothing without those 2 things. So, elite? I do not think so. No base, no peak


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 25, 2018)

After reading this all I could say was, “Huh!”.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 25, 2018)

This article was like a pu pu (or poo poo ) platter of indescribable contents.


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## jpeter (Jul 25, 2018)

This was noted in last week's broken system thread
http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/youth-broken-system.15698/


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 25, 2018)

jpeter said:


> This was noted in last week's broken system thread
> http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/youth-broken-system.15698/


Either way this article offers little.


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## timbuck (Jul 25, 2018)

Read most of it. It felt like the reporter was asking questions to my Amazon Alexa speaker and answers were being spit out from a google search.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 25, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Read most of it. It felt like the reporter was asking questions to my Amazon Alexa speaker and answers were being spit out from a google search.


Great analogy.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Jul 26, 2018)

1) what makes Mike Hoyer qualified to determine this?
2) it’s simply a crafty sales pitch. AYSO numbers are dwindling. So is the revenue, so create a midway program that fills Mike’s “void” that AYSO can “deliver.”


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## Deadpoolscores! (Jul 26, 2018)

Sunil Illuminati said:


> 1) what makes Mike Hoyer qualified to determine this?
> 2) it’s simply a crafty sales pitch. AYSO numbers are dwindling. So is the revenue, so create a midway program that fills Mike’s “void” that AYSO can “deliver.”


Isn't that midway program consider the Extra or Matrix in AYSO


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## Grace T. (Jul 26, 2018)

Well, if his point is that to keep broad based participation, we need a middle ground (like Extras) where kids who don't otherwise make it into club but who want more than daddy ball volunteer experiences with kick and miss players (it's funny how AYSO's advocacy for a middle ground forces them to impliedly critique the level of play in their own core program, whether it's said or not), then you know he probably has a point.  Aren't people around here always complaining, after all, that there are kids playing for C and D club teams who shouldn't be playing club at all?  If we are going to sort players, and still want to keep kids engaged to have a broad base of soccer involvement in the country, it makes sense to push for a middle tier.  If we are going to demand players pick 1 sport year round, well naturally those that aren't the best at soccer are going to look elsewhere for a sport where they can be the best.  From the Forbes article, it's apparently not just soccer but all the mainline sports (even hilariously sailing), though some of the less recognized sports (like lacrosse, rugby and field hockey) seem to be benefiting.

On the other hand, if our main concern if fielding a competitive USMNT, or creating college athletes, then this middle tier is probably unlikely to accomplish much.  By keeping kids in soccer longer it might help to better create a soccer culture in the country, but as others have pointed out, a more robust pro league or successful American pro players is likely to give us better mileage there.  And if our concern is developing college players, it might help keep late bloomers in the sport a little longer.  But beyond that, I struggle to find a rationale for, and he provides no argument for, the assertion that to have a peak you need a base...that's just an assertion without evidence and therefor a weak argument.


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## espola (Jul 26, 2018)

A couple of coaches in our local club (Poway) came up with a middle-level program for younger a few years back - Junior Vaqueros.  I look at it as rec soccer with paid coaches who know what they are doing.  A couple of short practices every week, then Friday evening games between teams made up from within the program so the coaches can do things like swapping players to even out the competition.  No one remembers the scores by next week, so no standings or championships to stress about.  Players who do well in the program get recruited for the competitive Vaqueros teams, and the club's rec program is still available for those who want it.

http://powayyouthsoccer.com/jr-vaqueros/


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## Deadpoolscores! (Jul 26, 2018)

espola said:


> A couple of coaches in our local club (Poway) came up with a middle-level program for younger a few years back - Junior Vaqueros.  I look at it as rec soccer with paid coaches who know what they are doing.  A couple of short practices every week, then Friday evening games between teams made up from within the program so the coaches can do things like swapping players to even out the competition.  No one remembers the scores by next week, so no standings or championships to stress about.  Players who do well in the program get recruited for the competitive Vaqueros teams, and the club's rec program is still available for those who want it.
> 
> http://powayyouthsoccer.com/jr-vaqueros/


Was the cost affordable reasonable or was it the same cost as your regular club fees?


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## espola (Jul 26, 2018)

Deadpoolscores! said:


> Was the cost affordable reasonable or was it the same cost as your regular club fees?


It was midway in costs, more or less, between the rec program and the youngest competitive program.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Jul 26, 2018)

espola said:


> It was midway in costs, more or less, between the rec program and the youngest competitive program.


That's not bad then.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2018)

Deadpoolscores! said:


> That's not bad then.


With E you need to ask what year. Those prices may be from 1989.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Jul 26, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> With E you need to ask what year. Those prices may be from 1989.


Lol


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## espola (Jul 26, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> With E you need to ask what year. Those prices may be from 1989.


I first coached in 76, but 89 was one of my skiing years.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2018)

espola said:


> I first coached in 76, but 89 was one of my skiing years.


Ski school? Or are you a Chalet skier?


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## espola (Jul 26, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Ski school? Or are you a Chalet skier?


Neither.  In my prime I was first chair to last chair skier.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2018)

espola said:


> Neither.  In my prime I was first chair to last chair skier.


Musical chairs.


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## coachsamy (Aug 2, 2018)

Club coaches should do this after tryouts or even better yet, use this type of system as a tryout scheme to identify who belongs in which team, not just to balance teams but to know that kids are at the right level. Many times kids are put into a team in which they don't belong and 8/10 times is because of the wrong reasons.



espola said:


> . A couple of short practices every week, then Friday evening games between teams made up from within the program so the coaches can do things like swapping players to even out the competition.


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## SPChamp1 (Aug 2, 2018)

IMO, part of the problem is that club soccer is ultimately a business. If “development” was the ultimate end goal and simply breaking absolutely even (with a small amount of reserves) was acceptable then there wouldn’t be a need to have 3-4 teams in certain age groups. You could simply focus time and effort on a handful of kids. 

How many kids are really turned away every tryout season and “recommended” to go back to Rec? Very few probably. Most kids will get turned down from Galaxy and then go to Beach. If they get turned down from Beach, they will go to Western Ave FC. If they go to enough tryouts, they will probably get asked to play.


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## Grace T. (Aug 2, 2018)

SPChamp1 said:


> IMO, part of the problem is that club soccer is ultimately a business. If “development” was the ultimate end goal and simply breaking absolutely even (with a small amount of reserves) was acceptable then there wouldn’t be a need to have 3-4 teams in certain age groups. You could simply focus time and effort on a handful of kids.
> 
> How many kids are really turned away every tryout season and “recommended” to go back to Rec? Very few probably. Most kids will get turned down from Galaxy and then go to Beach. If they get turned down from Beach, they will go to Western Ave FC. If they go to enough tryouts, they will probably get asked to play.


You have it upside down.  The explosion in club soccer was never caused by the elite players.  Many soccer clubs have been around since the 70s and back then high school was an option for recruitment.  The explosion of 3-4 teams were caused by the middle players.  AYSO began with a philosophy that everyone should play together from the elite player to the handicapped kids.  But the parents of those middle players, particularly those with college aspirations, got tired of the product AYSO and other rec programs were offering-- coaches that didn't know anything about the game, players who couldn't connect a pass, and AllStar programs that were increasingly political.  The AYSO core program didn't appeal to these parents, who now were being exposed to even low levels of professional and high school soccer and sort of had an idea of what the game is supposed to look like (such as during the US World cup), even if they were foggy on the details.  AYSO was wedded to a uniquely American perspective that kids shouldn't be tracked and sorted (which is why before magnets were introduced our public school systems are organized the way they are) and that everyone is equal.  AYSO was the victim of its own bad product, and a philosophy which became outdated as the competition pendulum swung.  Hey...parents are now even paying people to coach their children in fortnite, so when hypercompetitive parents crash into an egalitarian philosophy with a bad product, this was bound to happen.  Apparently these fortnite coaches are making more than some soccer coaches.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fortnite-coaches-2018-7

That's why if we care about the participation rate and having a broadbased participation, having multiple levels of soccer is a good thing.


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## Grace T. (Aug 2, 2018)

p.s. the good news for rec programs is that things are changing.  Increasingly as parents who played have kids, the entire coaches and ref who don't know what they are doing will go away.  And IMHO, the AYSO coaching materials and program are just simply better than the way US Soccer has gone.  Also note the UK has multiple levels of soccer, with a very small elite academy program at the top of the pyramid...the result there is lot's of kickball too at the lower and introductory levels.


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 2, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> You have it upside down.  The explosion in club soccer was never caused by the elite players.  Many soccer clubs have been around since the 70s and back then high school was an option for recruitment.  The explosion of 3-4 teams were caused by the middle players.  AYSO began with a philosophy that everyone should play together from the elite player to the handicapped kids.  But the parents of those middle players, particularly those with college aspirations, got tired of the product AYSO and other rec programs were offering-- coaches that didn't know anything about the game, players who couldn't connect a pass, and AllStar programs that were increasingly political.  The AYSO core program didn't appeal to these parents, who now were being exposed to even low levels of professional and high school soccer and sort of had an idea of what the game is supposed to look like (such as during the US World cup), even if they were foggy on the details.  AYSO was wedded to a uniquely American perspective that kids shouldn't be tracked and sorted (which is why before magnets were introduced our public school systems are organized the way they are) and that everyone is equal.  AYSO was the victim of its own bad product, and a philosophy which became outdated as the competition pendulum swung.  Hey...parents are now even paying people to coach their children in fortnite, so when hypercompetitive parents crash into an egalitarian philosophy with a bad product, this was bound to happen.  Apparently these fortnite coaches are making more than some soccer coaches.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/fortnite-coaches-2018-7
> 
> That's why if we care about the participation rate and having a broadbased participation, having multiple levels of soccer is a good thing.


I like this post a lot. Your comment on middle rung player resonates truth. Club was in its infancy when I was a youth it did not draw the best players or offer better coaching. But that was then. Now it is the bridge that offers middle ground players a chance of real growth.


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## SPChamp1 (Aug 2, 2018)

Grace, I absolutely agree. You definitely said it better than I did. 

I was just saying that as the “middle players” sought better coaching and competition, clubs took that opportunity to grow with that demand, disregarding children that had no business being there because the parents were willing to pay for it. 

I’m 38yrs old, grew up playing AYSO, played in High School, attempted to play in college (injury ended that experience). But back in the early 90’s Club Soccer was still fairly closed and only really accessible for the top talent of the age groups and according to my mother, was extremely expensive. Open tryouts with 100 kids wasn’t the norm if at all. It wasn’t until around mid to late 90’s (1994 World Cup) that it started to open up and become more accessible to those not necessarily at the top level of talent.

As you mentioned, when those middle level parents sought something else and were willing to shell out the money for it, the clubs began to open the doors.


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## Grace T. (Aug 2, 2018)

SPChamp1 said:


> d.
> 
> I was just saying that as the “middle players” sought better coaching and competition, clubs took that opportunity to grow with that demand, disregarding children that had no business being there because the parents were willing to pay for it.
> .


Where I disagree [sort of] is the "no business being there".  Like I always harp about around here, it depends what we want to do...what's the goal?  If it's to create a men's national team well then absolutely right.  The UK system, for example, has a very small elite program at the top and it's middle academies have been shutting down...with our DA program we seem to be doing the opposite as more and more clubs think they have to have one...and well, much like in the rest of the world, the girls are completely irrelevant if our sole goal is to create a pros and a men's national team.  But if our goal is to create college players, the current system is working very well in that respect...sure there are C and D teams that won't make it to college but then the news recently in the NYT about kids dropping out when they reach high school should be greeted as welcomed news...the system is self-correcting.  And if our goal is to create broadbased participation, well then having those C and D teams, along with choices like United and Extras, is exactly what we need because then the news about kids dropping out is a problem...we need more choices not less.  As I've said before: you can have your soccer competitive, accessible to all or developmental...pick 2.


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## ItsCalledSoccer (Aug 4, 2018)

Yes exactly. In England, the professional teams have their academy teams (fully funded) which is very serious, closed and only for the top top players. Everything else is voluntary and grassroots pretty much. Some teams try to compete as a development club but that's just for those who are easy targets to sell higher prices to, and they still play with the grassroots teams.

There aren't enough professional teams in Southern California to have an academy league for just the professional teams, but yes it seems there are way too many DA teams here and seems to be a shift towards a much watered down club scene where some clubs will take any players, regardless of ability or commitment.

But as Grace said, it depends what the US wants. Personally, I don't think it makes sense to have dozens and dozens of DA and Flight 1 teams, it should be difficult to get to that point in my opinion, with more Flight 2 (AYSO United), Flight 3 (AYSO Extra) and eventually a Flight 4 (AYSO Core),  shaped in a pyramid style with very few flight 1 teams and dozens of flight 4 teams.


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