# New Research on Covid Transmission



## Anon9 (Aug 14, 2020)

Youth Sports COVID Safety Whitepaper - Surf Cup Sports
					

New Study Finds Limited COVID-19 Transmission During Outdoor Youth Sports in San Diego County   Study offers path forward for San Diego County to safely reopen outdoor youth sports       DEL MAR, CA, August 14, 2020 – Today Surf Cup Sports is announcing the results of an eight-week study...




					surfcupsports.com


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Aug 14, 2020)

I thought this was an interesting paragraph...

*'With clearance to return to play on June 12, youth soccer clubs across San Diego County have been hosting onsite training sessions for teams weekly. With respect to soccer, early data suggests that the time spent in close proximity to other players during a soccer game is limited and falls far below the duration that is felt to represent sufficient exposure to result in viral transmission. Research and testing will continue, but initial results show promising signs that outdoor sports in large areas are safe for kids 6-18.'*


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## lafalafa (Aug 14, 2020)

Distant training work when all the protocols are followed and is lower risk.   Confirming that with the position piece is a good first step.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Aug 14, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Distant training work when all the protocols are followed.


Agreed, and that's what we've been doing... for the most part... but "return to play June 12" is a little misleading unless I misunderstand the meaning.  Full contact is what I think of when hearing "return to play".  Seems to me that pushes the boundaries of "close proximity to other players during a game is limited".


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## Frank (Aug 14, 2020)

At least they being proactive to get their tournament to happen.  Thank you Surf.


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## socalkdg (Aug 14, 2020)

This goes along with this study.









						Soccer May Not Be As Much Of A Contact Sport As You Think; Will That Impact Coronavirus Risk?
					

Player tracking data from the Dutch Eredivisie suggests that only 0.2% of matches from the past two seasons saw players engage in "close encounters."




					www.forbes.com


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## Frank (Aug 14, 2020)

Now enter Espola, Messy and EOTL to tell us all we are idiots and going to die


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## Copa9 (Aug 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Youth Sports COVID Safety Whitepaper - Surf Cup Sports
> 
> 
> New Study Finds Limited COVID-19 Transmission During Outdoor Youth Sports in San Diego County   Study offers path forward for San Diego County to safely reopen outdoor youth sports       DEL MAR, CA, August 14, 2020 – Today Surf Cup Sports is announcing the results of an eight-week study...
> ...


Hmmm, eight week study.  Was it all distance training?


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## Desert Hound (Aug 14, 2020)

Frank said:


> Now enter Espola, Messy and EOTL to tell us all we are idiots and going to die


You left out 2 Karens.


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## Eagle33 (Aug 14, 2020)

WOW, Surf came out with a study with hopes to still have a Surf Cup in September.......


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 14, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Hmmm, eight week study.  Was it all distance training?


I'm curious, are you aware of the studies that were used to identify outdoor soccer as something other than a low-risk activity? I'm just wondering, what takes precedence? Is it current activity exactly mirroring the activity in question (soccer) in the environment of the virus in question, or is it whatever study was used to determine soccer was not low risk?


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## Desert Hound (Aug 14, 2020)

Frank said:


> Now enter Espola, Messy and EOTL to tell us all we are idiots and going to die


You left out 2 Karens.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 14, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> WOW, Surf came out with a study with hopes to still have a Surf Cup in September.......


I might save my $200 after all....lol.  Time to let the kids play ball.  I'm getting fired up for some soccer after all.  Has the Eagle finally landed?


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## Hugh Jasol (Aug 14, 2020)

Frank said:


> Now enter Espola, Messy and EOTL to tell us all we are idiots and going to die


They are braver, exponentially more intelligent, and morally superior to all.


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## Tyrone (Aug 14, 2020)

Hugh Jasol said:


> They are braver, exponentially more intelligent, and morally superior to all.


Yall be trippin homie. Dim clowns be straight up bustas.


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## dad4 (Aug 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Youth Sports COVID Safety Whitepaper - Surf Cup Sports
> 
> 
> New Study Finds Limited COVID-19 Transmission During Outdoor Youth Sports in San Diego County   Study offers path forward for San Diego County to safely reopen outdoor youth sports       DEL MAR, CA, August 14, 2020 – Today Surf Cup Sports is announcing the results of an eight-week study...
> ...


Simar results to the study from the Texas football leagues.  

Any word on a study funded by someone other than a sports association? 

Honest question there.  I'd feel a lot better trusting UCSD or UCLA, instead of taking Surf's word for it.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Simar results to the study from the Texas football leagues.
> 
> Any word on a study funded by someone other than a sports association?
> 
> Honest question there.  I'd feel a lot better trusting UCSD or UCLA, instead of taking Surf's word for it.


LSU football?  Coach O is all in with his squad.  Trevor is ready and so is Bama.  The winners are ready to ball.  I have an idea. Let each school decide. Take all the teams and have a little mini season and then a playoff like their always should have been.  Fran is all in too......


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 14, 2020)

Hugh Jasol said:


> They are braver, exponentially more intelligent, and morally superior to all.


You know what that makes them, correct?


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 14, 2020)

Tyrone said:


> Yall be trippin homie. Dim clowns be straight up bustas.


There goes the neighborhood.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Aug 14, 2020)

Tyrone said:


> Yall be trippin homie. Dim clowns be straight up bustas.


Brother, I was JUST going to post that.


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## dad4 (Aug 14, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> LSU football?  Coach O is all in with his squad.  Trevor is ready and so is Bama.  The winners are ready to ball.  I have an idea. Let each school decide. Take all the teams and have a little mini season and then a playoff like their always should have been.  Fran is all in too......


Not really looking for the ok from a coach.

I'd like to see an honest risk analysis done by someone who is great with statistics and doesn't care a bit about sports.  ( I'd do it, but I fall short on both requirements. )


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## timbuck (Aug 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Simar results to the study from the Texas football leagues.
> 
> Any word on a study funded by someone other than a sports association?
> 
> Honest question there.  I'd feel a lot better trusting UCSD or UCLA, instead of taking Surf's word for it.


Is this like the tobacco companies saying that doctors recommend Camel cigarettes?


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## Eusebio (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Honest question there.  I'd feel a lot better trusting UCSD or UCLA, instead of taking Surf's word for it.


Same here.

I read the Surf Cup "whitepaper" and it's shockingly low on actual data and context. It looks like a high school senior research paper with just some top-line statistics with advocacy thrown in there.

The "whitepaper" is missing some key information, which is needed to make a non-bias assessment. Such as:
- Were all the training sessions distanced training?
- What percentage of those training sessions fully distanced and which percentage had players in relatively close contact?
- Of the 6,560 players and 263 coaches, what percentage were tested and how often?
- To truly determine transmission, how many families of those 6,560 players were tested and the ones that tested positive?
- How aggressive were the clubs checking with players and their families for any illnesses? What was the protocol?

The last three points are critical. We already know the vast majority of kids under 18 are asymptomatic carriers. So if we don't know the percentage of players tested for COVID then we have no idea the real transmission rate because we're not checking for asymptomatic carriers. It's just players and families who are self reporting. And as someone with kids at couple of those clubs, I know first-hand they weren't actively checking if their players or families had COVID. My daughter has been in and out of practice for months yet my club never bothered to check if something was wrong with our family. We could have easily had COVID and quarantined and the club never would have known unless we self-reported. You would hope people would self-report but there is a stigma with having COVID and the clubs aren't exactly looking to increase the case count, so it's certainly plausible why a family wouldn't report it.

The only thing this study proved was that distanced training, even with slightly varying safety standards, does not cause widespread illness for players 6 to 18. We already knew that, but that is still comforting. However this study proves nothing whatsoever on transmission. If they actually wanted to scientifically answer that question, then all 6 clubs should have tested all their players every week or two during the 8 weeks. And then trace and test down to family members if a positive case appeared. But they didn't do that. This study is basically napkin math when it comes to transmissions.

At the end of the whitepaper it says they want to use the Scientific Method and use a step by step approach with pilot programs for more intense play. That's a sensible approach but if they want Part 2 of the study to have more substance, they need to actively test all participants so they can actually answer or shed light if a full contact mask-less game increases transmissions or not. They'll also need to collect information from participants like if the player is doing virtual learning or in-person for school. That could corrupt/affect the study as well.

To do a legit study like this it has to be more than a PR/advocacy paper, which is why I also think it would be better if a distinguished university with no skin in the game did a scientific study on the matter. But to Surf (and the clubs) credit, at least the conversation is getting back to being about the data and we can debate it.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Youth Sports COVID Safety Whitepaper - Surf Cup Sports
> 
> 
> New Study Finds Limited COVID-19 Transmission During Outdoor Youth Sports in San Diego County   Study offers path forward for San Diego County to safely reopen outdoor youth sports       DEL MAR, CA, August 14, 2020 – Today Surf Cup Sports is announcing the results of an eight-week study...
> ...


It's pretty bold of Surf Sports to present what they call "our argument" in such a format, disguised to appear as if it were some sort of a scientific study.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Is this like the tobacco companies saying that doctors recommend Camel cigarettes?View attachment 8654


When mass-produced cigarettes were brought into the popular market over a century ago, they were seen as a healthier alternative to cigars, pipes, and chewing tobacco.


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## Chalklines (Aug 15, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Misogynist. Racist. @Dominic.  In case you haven’t heard the new slur “Kamaltoe” yet, that refers to Kamala Harris.


Another thread gone sour by @EOTL.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 15, 2020)

Eusebio said:


> *There is a stigma with having COVID *


You think?  How about just flat out fear of the unknown of the bat virus?  Or, some say on here brain damage could come later if you catch that virus, like maybe year from now.  Some say little kids who catch the corona could get lung damage or already have it without knowing and their little lungs will be ruined forever.  We will all find out when the actual data comes in a year from now.  So much speculation these days.  There is wide spread fear with catching the corona or being the dummy who didnt know he or she had it and by messying around and not obeying the rules, you accidentally infect someone who has underlying health issues.  That person is also to blame because he or she should have stayed inside away from others who might have it.  Today my wife's niece turns 5 and this will be the first time the whole family see's each other since Christmas.  We will see Grandma and Grandpa.  Were all wearing mask and grand parents will be in one area of the house that was wiped down extra and disinfected earlier this morning. We also built a big plastic shield fence around them like the one at the bank.  No hugging or high fives like we used to do with all the kids.  Excessive heat wave warning out in Claremont so this will be a hot one today.  Thank God for AC Tech guy who fixed my sister in law's ac last week.  She called me for a contact and I hooked her up.  Her son is a soccer baller at FC Golden State and will be taking on my dd in the 6th annual Family 1 v 1 tournament this evening when it's cooler.  Dude is only 11 and he beats my dd all the time.  She beats him too and is out for blood this year.  Grandpa will go up on the roof ((single story)) and ref the game.  Girls vs the Boys..........


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## Dominic (Aug 15, 2020)

*RICKY FANDANGO INDEFINITE*
*MLX 1 WEEK
OUTLAW 1 WEEK*
*TYRONE INDEFINITE*


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## Ellejustus (Aug 15, 2020)

Dominic said:


> *BANNED TYRONE INDEFINITE . BANNED OUTLAW 1 WEEK*


Wow, that was swift and forceful.  Let's see if Outlaw learns his lesson and comes back better for it.  I got suspended last year for false advertising.  Dom, if the Outlaw messes up again, whats the next level?  Lifetime ban?


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Simar results to the study from the Texas football leagues.
> 
> Any word on a study funded by someone other than a sports association?
> 
> Honest question there.  I'd feel a lot better trusting UCSD or UCLA, instead of taking Surf's word for it.


Another honest question. At what point does significant evidence that indicates that outdoor sports activity is a very low-risk activity push the burden of proof to the claim that it is otherwise?


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## Keepermom2 (Aug 15, 2020)

Eusebio said:


> Same here.
> 
> I read the Surf Cup "whitepaper" and it's shockingly low on actual data and context. It looks like a high school senior research paper with just some top-line statistics with advocacy thrown in there.
> 
> ...


The "study" term made me laugh out loud.  Someone said on another chat board that it looked like an excel spreadsheet with data points.  

The obvious questions I have is as follows:

1. Why would MLS put everyone in a bubble, and test them every day preventing them from playing if they tested positive, if the risk of spread playing soccer was low?

2. Why would more than half of the college sports conferences cancel the fall season if the risk of spread was low?

3. Before printing of this article, Surf Cup should have had the parents present heart tests for the kids that tested positive since it has been learned that COVID could cause issues in the heart which was noted as one of the reasons that certain college conferences pulled the plug on the fall.  As they said, we don't know what we don't know.  (The study that discussed the heart issue was small, and larger studies are needed, but one of the head doctors for the conference noted that he had been contacted by several people about heart issues after a bout with COVID).


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## dad4 (Aug 15, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Another honest question. At what point does significant evidence that indicates that outdoor sports activity is a very low-risk activity push the burden of proof to the claim that it is otherwise?


It doesn't.  We are both just guessing.  

Soccer is outdoor and mostly separated, therefore low risk.  Soccer involves people breathing heavily without masks, therefore high risk.  

My guess is low risk overall, but that is only a guess.

This is why I would love to see a university study of athletes in Texas or Florida that actually tries to figure it out.  Test every kid in the North Texas league, do a cluster analysis, and tell me whether connections through soccer seems a likely risk factor.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> My guess is low risk overall, but that is only a guess.


Good guess


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## Not_that_Serious (Aug 15, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Youth Sports COVID Safety Whitepaper - Surf Cup Sports
> 
> 
> New Study Finds Limited COVID-19 Transmission During Outdoor Youth Sports in San Diego County   Study offers path forward for San Diego County to safely reopen outdoor youth sports       DEL MAR, CA, August 14, 2020 – Today Surf Cup Sports is announcing the results of an eight-week study...
> ...


You have to also consider the source. The author isn’t the most trustworthy of people. Some other people on the boards know her as well. Surf would never pay anyone to put this out. This is a bit like


Eusebio said:


> Same here.
> 
> I read the Surf Cup "whitepaper" and it's shockingly low on actual data and context. It looks like a high school senior research paper with just some top-line statistics with advocacy thrown in there.
> 
> ...


Some of us on the board know the author personally and isn’t the most trustworthy source. She doesn’t have a background that would lend to writing a solid scientific article. She would also NEVER take money money to write slanted articles. She would NEVER have other people write articles for her and put her name on them. That isn’t even getting in to if the actual science. Every industry does this type of “white paper”. Automobile, Pharmaceutical, Industrial Materials, etc. They own or pay someone to put out a positive study. The “data” may very well be solid, but all goes in the dumpster once you peel back the skin and see there is some rot.


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## Chalklines (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> It doesn't.  We are both just guessing.
> 
> Soccer is outdoor and mostly separated, therefore low risk.  Soccer involves people breathing heavily without masks, therefore high risk.
> 
> ...


Ive been in touch with my old staff in North Texas. High school football hasn't skipped a beat for over a month but understand there's a bigger push for football since it's an avenue out of poverty and a free education. Sr year is what every football player preperes for since putting pads on at pee wee level.

North Texas won't be canceling the season Austins another story. Delays, Masks, limited attendance etc.Just like what we will see out here.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> It doesn't.  We are both just guessing.
> 
> Soccer is outdoor and mostly separated, therefore low risk.  Soccer involves people breathing heavily without masks, therefore high risk.
> 
> ...


Cluster analysis? The virus isn't coy. It doesn't play hard to get. When you do things that spread it, there's no hiding the results. Go inside and socialize (see below), go to a house party, go on a cruise ship, etc. your risk is very high. The only thing we need to guess for outdoor sports is, how small? 









						Anatomy of a super spreader: Harper’s outbreak a caution for college bars | Bridge Michigan
					

As Michigan State University students return to campus this fall, a popular East Lansing bar hopes to reopen after closing last month in the wake of a COVID-19 outbreak linked to 188 infections. But under a new deal, Harper’s Restaurant and Brewpub must make a host of changes.




					www.bridgemi.com


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## timbuck (Aug 15, 2020)

espola said:


> When mass-produced cigarettes were brought into the popular market over a century ago, they were seen as a healthier alternative to cigars, pipes, and chewing tobacco.


Was this before or after doctors stopped using leeches to cure hemorrhoids?


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## dad4 (Aug 15, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Cluster analysis? The virus isn't coy. It doesn't play hard to get. When you do things that spread it, there's no hiding the results. Go inside and socialize (see below), go to a house party, go on a cruise ship, etc. your risk is very high. The only thing we need to guess for outdoor sports is, how small?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Texas has had 378 cases among soccer players, how do you know whether soccer is at all involved?  It could just be a reflection of the covid levels in the community.

You start to ask whether those 378 cases are connected to each other.  Cluster analysis.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 15, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Before printing of this article, Surf Cup should have had the parents present heart tests for the kids that tested positive since it has been learned that COVID could cause issues in the heart which was noted as one of the reasons that certain college conferences pulled the plug on the fall.  As they said, we don't know what we don't know.  (The study that discussed the heart issue was small, and larger studies are needed, but one of the head doctors for the conference noted that he had been contacted by several people about heart issues after a bout with COVID).


I'm trying to understand the level of "risk of dying" here. Saying "could cause heart issues" is a f'ing cop-out. Is the risk higher than slipping in the shower, driving to Costco, skydiving? What is "small"? Is it 1%, 0.1%, 0.0000000000001%? The only reason to present it in this way, with zero context, is to promote a position that was already decided and to stoke fear that will support that position. They need to have some courage and actually put some numbers to it. I assume this condition can cause death in the general population. What is the risk there? I am not saying that the risk isn't significant, but they give ZERO actionable information unless someone is looking for the "risk of death" = 0.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If Texas has had 378 cases among soccer players, how do you know whether soccer is at all involved?  It could just be a reflection of the covid levels in the community.
> 
> You start to ask whether those 378 cases are connected to each other.  Cluster analysis.


It's not that I don't believe in cluster analysis and it makes sense in these "studies". My point is that soccer (and football) training and games have been going on in North Texas in the midst of an outbreak that was worse than what we are currently in here in CA and there have been no indications of an outbreak associated with these activities. They are playing regular soccer and having tournaments - with definite restrictions on how crowds gather - but, otherwise, normal soccer. We have enough evidence to see that the actual activity of playing soccer is a low risk.

Full disclosure - I didn't read the Surf "study". An individual club that holds huge tournaments has too much incentive for me to trust for a "study". No offense meant to Surf by that. I'd feel the same for any club in that position. I base my position that soccer is low risk from the multitude of clubs actually playing regular soccer in Texas where the prevalence of the virus was at least as prevalent as it is here.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 15, 2020)

Not_that_Serious said:


> You have to also consider the source. The author isn’t the most trustworthy of people. Some other people on the boards know her as well. Surf would never pay anyone to put this out. This is a bit like
> 
> Some of us on the board know the author personally and isn’t the most trustworthy source. She doesn’t have a background that would lend to writing a solid scientific article. She would also NEVER take money money to write slanted articles. She would NEVER have other people write articles for her and put her name on them. That isn’t even getting in to if the actual science. Every industry does this type of “white paper”. Automobile, Pharmaceutical, Industrial Materials, etc. They own or pay someone to put out a positive study. The “data” may very well be solid, but all goes in the dumpster once you peel back the skin and see there is some rot.


What about the beach?    Anyone writing articles for the beach businesses?  It's already packed and were expecting record crowds. So far today I saw two basketball games with adults, bike riders all over the Laguna Canyon, paddle boarder biz is booming today as well.  Small waves and super glassy. Scuba divers everywhere.  Adults everywhere exercising today as I speak.  Kids?  I love that everyone is obeying Laguna's mask law.  I'm serious, everyone going to sooth oc beaches today please wear a mask.  I'm wearing a mask and so is my family out to Claremont.  I'll wave to you all on the 241 coming down.  Expect major traffic.  Please, if you have a fever or feel sick or have health issues, please stay home today.  It's a zoo out there.  Zooport is packed!!!  My dd is already trying to get out of it because everyone is going to da beach today except us.  No traffic out to the IE today that's for sure.  I just left my walk on the beach with my dog Oreo and it's packed.


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## Keepermom2 (Aug 15, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I'm trying to understand the level of "risk of dying" here. Saying "could cause heart issues" is a f'ing cop-out. Is the risk higher than slipping in the shower, driving to Costco, skydiving? What is "small"? Is it 1%, 0.1%, 0.0000000000001%? The only reason to present it in this way, with zero context, is to promote a position that was already decided and to stoke fear that will support that position. They need to have some courage and actually put some numbers to it. I assume this condition can cause death in the general population. What is the risk there? I am not saying that the risk isn't significant, but they give ZERO actionable information unless someone is looking for the "risk of death" = 0.


I will point you to my comment "We don't know what we don't know".  Your risk tolerance level is such that you believe you know that the risk is low and are willing to take the risk.  

I think the following says it best in the article from ESPN *Heart condition linked with COVID-19 fuels Power 5 concern about season's viability;*

"Dr. Matthew Martinez, director of sports cardiology for Atlantic Health System in New Jersey, said he has received calls from physicians from at least a dozen Power 5 schools who have identified more than a dozen athletes with some post-COVID-19 myocardial injury. He said about half of them had symptoms.

"Initially we thought if you didn't have significant symptoms that you are probably at less risk. We are now finding that that may not be true," he said.

Martinez, who is the league cardiologist for Major League Soccer, team cardiologist for the New York Jets and a consultant for the National Basketball Players Association, said based on what he's seen so far among professional athletes who have had COVID-19, "I'm hopeful the number is under 5%" who have heart-related issues.

Even though the percentage is likely small, Martinez said there is still so much unknown that it is wise to take a conservative approach in returning athletes to play."


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## Ellejustus (Aug 15, 2020)

Dominic said:


> *RICKY FANDANGO INDEFINITE*
> *MLX 1 WEEK
> OUTLAW 1 WEEK*
> *TYRONE INDEFINITE*


Dom is like a ref going from thread to thread handing out yellow cards, red cards and the new super red white and blue card for indefinite suspension.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 15, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I will point you to my comment "We don't know what we don't know".  Your risk tolerance level is such that you believe you know that the risk is low and are willing to take the risk.
> 
> I think the following says it best in the article from ESPN *Heart condition linked with COVID-19 fuels Power 5 concern about season's viability;*
> 
> ...


In no way was this a criticism of your post. You posted exactly as it was stated and it was as I remembered it as well when I posted.

My problem with how lockdowns, etc. have been presented from the beginning is that they primarily consider only "one side" of the risk - catching COVID and not the "life" ramifications of shutting down. For these athletes, it's worth asking if their risk of death is greater if they play or if they don't? I'd argue that they may be more likely to catch COVID when they aren't playing than when they are. In season, they are generally monitored much more closely and have less free time. I'd think that more risky behavior of various forms will take the place of the "rush" they crave from the competition they will miss. I'd also guess they are more prone to depression having been deprived of a very big part of their lives. The risk of suicide already appears to have gone up. This won't help. As much as this action is presented as "reducing risk", we really don't know that and it may make the risk worse. I understand the Conferences' reluctance. If one athlete catches COVID and dies or dies from the heart condition identified here, it will be all over the news, their judgment will be called into question and they may get sued. I believe they reduced their "risk" and I sincerely hope they reduced the overall risk for the athletes. What we don't know extends well beyond COVID.


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## Keepermom2 (Aug 15, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> What we don't know extends well beyond COVID.


I agree 100% with that statement.  As a parent of a new adult who has been diagnosed with a major depressive disorder and wants to rightfully exert her freedom, I am in a constant state of trying to balance all of the risks for her mental health.  It certainly hasn't been easy but we have managed and without too many names being called.


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## SoccerLocker (Aug 15, 2020)

We still don't know what we don't know.  

*Here's an example of how training with 1 unknown positive player for 1 hour caused a problem for FC Dallas:*

After ‘absolute chaos’ in Orlando, FC Dallas can’t wait to get started again

After receiving their results, the two FCD players who tested positive were immediately put into isolation, as required by MLS protocols. The club and league then performed contact tracing, and all individuals who were in close contact with the infected players began to be monitored. On Sunday, June 28th, the day after arriving, the entire Dallas delegation was tested for a second time. *The team had scheduled its first Orlando training session for that evening.*

At the time, MLS protocols allowed all players and staff members who tested negative upon arrival to participate in all approved activities, even if other individuals in their club’s delegation had tested positive in the initial exam. That meant that Dallas could train that Sunday night — and that the team didn’t need to wait for the results from their tests on Sunday morning before taking the field. *Unbeknownst to them before training, a player had tested positive. *
...
“I think training started at like 7:30 p.m., we got the results back for the tests at 8:30 p.m., and the guy who had tested positive in that round got pulled from the end of practice and basically got quarantined, brought home in a different way then the rest of the team,” said Hollingshead. “But at that point, we’d all been exposed to him for *about an hour of a practice* that we were sanctioned to go take part in.” 

With that, three FC Dallas players had tested positive in Orlando; obviously not ideal, but If the spread didn’t continue, the team still had more than enough healthy players to compete in the tournament. The entire delegation was tested again on Monday. This time, all results came back negative. FCD, which had waited for the results before starting practice, was hopeful at that evening’s training. 

Once again, their optimism was short-lived. *Three more players tested positive on Tuesday, June 30th, prompting the club to stop training and put its entire delegation in a full quarantine. On Wednesday, July 1st, another three players and one coach tested positive, bringing the total number of positive cases to nine players and one coach.*


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## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Was this before or after doctors stopped using leeches to cure hemorrhoids?


I have never heard of that usage of leeches.  The first economically successful cigarette maikng machines were invented in the 1889's.

About a century later, the leading executives of the largest US cigarette manufacturers swore in testimony before Congress that cigarettes were not addictive.  During that time period, documents were discovered confirming the efforts of scientists they had hired to research tobacco strains and additives that would increase craving for more among their customers.


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## dad4 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Dom is like a ref going from thread to thread handing out yellow cards, red cards and the new super red white and blue card for indefinite suspension.


Yes, and we are back to talking about soccer.

It's good.  It was way too easy to goad each other into going political.

Off to watch Bayern/Barca.  How the heck did that happen?


----------



## Spfister (Aug 15, 2020)

Well other states have had full contact soccer for several months and games and even tournaments but nothing about any spread of Covid from soccer..  and you can bet it would be all over the media if there was a cluster of cases.  There’s your research. Let our kids play. Is anyone wants their little Jack or Jill to stay home, that’s their choice.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

Spfister said:


> Well other states have had full contact soccer for several months and games and even tournaments but nothing about any spread of Covid from soccer..  and you can bet it would be all over the media if there was a cluster of cases.  There’s your research. Let our kids play. Is anyone wants their little Jack or Jill to stay home, that’s their choice.


Lack of data is not research.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 15, 2020)

SoccerLocker said:


> Once again, their optimism was short-lived


And as has been brought up numerous times. The press loves reporting players test positive. 

Guess what?

How many actually had issues? They never circle around and say well almost all were asymptomatic and combined with the others that were not, nothing happened to them. 

It is always WOW!!! Someone got tested and was postive. VS reporting later...OK neve rmind nothing bad happened.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 15, 2020)

Frank said:


> Now enter Espola, Messy and EOTL to tell us all we are idiots and going to die


Well, you are idiots and you are going to die.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 15, 2020)

Hugh Jasol said:


> They are braver, exponentially more intelligent, and morally superior to all.





espola said:


> Lack of data is not research.


I think Espola just proved that.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

Justafan said:


> I think Espola just proved that.


Sometimes I am surprised to find that my education is somehow seen as a liability in discussions about things I have actually studied.


----------



## EOTL (Aug 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Lack of data is not research.


The states that are back at soccer have the highest current death rates, which is pretty compelling evidence that their lack of social distancing regulations are resulting in more deaths. 

Sure, it’s unlikely a kid will get it playing youth soccer. It’s unlikely they’ll get it because daddy went to a bar last night. It’s unlikely they’ll get it sitting at a restaurant. Or flying in a plane. Or even walking down a boardwalk with no one wearing masks. Ok, it’s pretty likely they’ll get it at HS. And when you add it all up, it’s very likely that they’ll get it in the states that have fully opened up because adding up a lot of unlikely things makes it pretty likely. That, in turn, makes it much more likely that they’ll kill grandma, or their own parent, or their friend’s parent who has a heart condition, or their teacher, or soccer coach, or ref, or the person walking down the street who didn’t even know they had a health condition, or the chubby kid sitting next to her in math class. Or any of the 500 people they get within 6 feet of on a school day with soccer practice.

When you take youth soccer out of context, of course it’s unlikely it will be transmitted playing soccer, just like with any individual interaction. But you need to be looking at the social distancing regulations overall, rather than picking out the bits and pieces that most affect your lifestyle, because for every soccer daddy using his kid to prop up his self-esteem, there are 100 people lined up to pick out exceptions for things that are far more important than whether little Sally gets to lace them up on Saturday. You can’t effectively limit spread by half-assing social distancing.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

espola said:


> I have never heard of that usage of leeches.  The first economically successful cigarette maikng machines were invented in the 1889's.
> 
> About a century later, the leading executives of the largest US cigarette manufacturers swore in testimony before Congress that cigarettes were not addictive.  During that time period, documents were discovered confirming the efforts of scientists they had hired to research tobacco strains and additives that would increase craving for more among their customers.


And the advertising helped, of course --






And Mad Men made reference to "It's toasted"






LSMFT


----------



## Spfister (Aug 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Lack of data is not research.


The data is the fact that they’re holding scrimmages, games, and contact  training for months. Nothing in the media about it, nothing from CDC, nothing firm Fauci. The media would pounce on this if it happened… Just like they are doing now every time a college or school student tests  positive for Covid.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 15, 2020)

Spfister said:


> The data is the fact that they’re holding scrimmages, games, and contact  training for months. Nothing in the media about it, nothing from CDC, nothing firm Fauci. The media would pounce on this if it happened… Just like they are doing now every time a college or school student tests  positive for Covid.


There are thousands of high school students who have had covid.  Very few of them have a CNN article dedicated to the fact.

If covid spreads on the field, it isn’t even clear the team would know, let alone Fauci.  If it spreads only to the people who really get close, you wouldn’t even see a cluster.  You’d have a couple of asymptomatic kids, and perhaps a parent or two two weeks later.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2020)

Spfister said:


> The data is the fact that they’re holding scrimmages, games, and contact  training for months. Nothing in the media about it, nothing from CDC, nothing firm Fauci. The media would pounce on this if it happened… Just like they are doing now every time a college or school student tests  positive for Covid.


You know you are not paranoid when they really are out to get you.


----------



## EOTL (Aug 15, 2020)

Spfister said:


> The data is the fact that they’re holding scrimmages, games, and contact  training for months. Nothing in the media about it, nothing from CDC, nothing firm Fauci. The media would pounce on this if it happened… Just like they are doing now every time a college or school student tests  positive for Covid.


The U.S. is one of the worst in the world with respect to contact tracing. Our abysmal response to the pandemic means no one will ever know whether grandma died because little Sally went to soccer practice, HS, the mall, or Starbucks. If we don’t bother trying to figure out how someone got it, it must be fine to do whatever we want, right?









						Which countries do COVID-19 contact tracing?
					

'Limited' contact tracing means some, but not all, cases are traced. 'Comprehensive' tracing means all cases are traced.




					ourworldindata.org
				



.


----------



## chiefs (Aug 15, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The U.S. is one of the worst in the world with respect to contact tracing. Our abysmal response to the pandemic means no one will ever know whether grandma died because little Sally went to soccer practice, HS, the mall, or Starbucks. If we don’t bother trying to figure out how someone got it, it must be fine to do whatever we want, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn’t Gavin pencil in over a hundred million for contact tracing? What happened?’where’s the results?


----------



## paytoplay (Aug 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yes, and we are back to talking about soccer.
> 
> It's good.  It was way too easy to goad each other into going political.
> 
> Off to watch Bayern/Barca.  How the heck did that happen?


Barca never got anything with all that Neymar money except for some bust acquisitions. The club massively screwed the pooch, so many bad decisions. Should have never signed Griezman. It’s been Messi carrying them for years. Look how stacked Bayern and PSG are.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 15, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> Barca never got anything with all that Neymar money except for some bust acquisitions. The club massively screwed the pooch, so many bad decisions. Should have never signed Griezman. It’s been Messi carrying them for years. Look how stacked Bayern and PSG are.


Dude, Soccer conversation in a Covid thread! What!! Unthinkable! I was shocked that Barca failed like they did. I’m not sure on PSG. And I agree on the pundits that Pepe once again went to cerebral.


----------



## paytoplay (Aug 15, 2020)

The Covid-19 break played a bit of spoiler with teams fates this year I think. Hard to quantify that. Barca was flat in La Liga after the break. And Barca were massive underdogs going in to this game. They kind of quit toward the end too like they’re U9s, when Coutinho scored twice. He is after all infamously a bust at Barca that they loaned him out, to of all teams Bayern, where he is lucky if he comes off the bench. He could have scored 5 goals and no team would be asking for coutinho next year. If you watched PSG vs Atalanta, of course PSG pulled it out in the final minutes, but two things: Neymar and Mbappe were creating chances at will, and they couldn’t finish anything all game until the end. Should have been comfortably up a few goals, not down.


----------



## Stephen A smith (Aug 15, 2020)

I wonder if messi goes back to barca next year.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 16, 2020)

As in covid, Germany is crushing it in champions league as well.   Sorry Pulisic and Jimenez, Alfonso Davies is the best North American player.   This hurts to say it because I’m a pulisic fanatic but Davies is better.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 16, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Pepe once again went to cerebral.


The 5 man back line was a bit suspect.


----------



## BarcaLover (Aug 16, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> As in covid, Germany is crushing it in champions league as well.   Sorry Pulisic and Jimenez, Alfonso Davies is the best North American player.   This hurts to say it because I’m a pulisic fanatic but Davies is better.


Hard to compare the 2 because they play different positions, but both have looked VERY good this season.  But to your point, Davies may be the best LB in the world right now.....and that’s saying a lot because Andy Robertson is pretty decent and his team has had some success recently  .


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Aug 16, 2020)

BarcaLover said:


> Hard to compare the 2 because they play different positions, but both have looked VERY good this season.  But to your point, Davies may be the best LB in the world right now.....and that’s saying a lot because Andy Robertson is pretty decent and his team has had some success recently  .


Andy Robertson sucks...overrated.


----------



## BarcaLover (Aug 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Andy Robertson sucks...overrated.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions.....yours just happens to be wrong


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 16, 2020)

BarcaLover said:


> .....the best LB in the world right now.....


That designation goes to Marcelo


----------



## Justafan (Aug 16, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> That designation goes to Marcelo


Two  years ago, yes.  Way too many injuries last couple of years and he's only getting older.  Davies is clearly the best LB right now and it's not that close.  Not only is he the fastest player in ALL of world soccer, he's got way better offensive skills than any LB out there.  It's Davies, then Robertson, and honorable mention to Danny Rose.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 16, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> Barca never got anything with all that Neymar money except for some bust acquisitions. The club massively screwed the pooch, so many bad decisions. Should have never signed Griezman. It’s been Messi carrying them for years. Look how stacked Bayern and PSG are.


Goes to show the most important part of any sport is the PLAYERS.  It's not La Masia, it's not TikiTaka, it's not Guardiola, it's not the coaches, it's the PLAYERS!!  They hit the jackpot with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, and Puyol all coming up at once.  They thought they were geniuses at La Masia and thought the pipeline would never end because they thought they "created" the players.  They may have refined them, but they didn't create them.  They need a complete overhaul and better scouting.  This is the end of Messi/Ronaldo era.  Next superstar Erling Haaland, 20 year old striker from Dortmund.


----------



## Emma (Aug 16, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Goes to show the most important part of any sport is the PLAYERS.  It's not La Masia, it's not TikiTaka, it's not Guardiola, it's not the coaches, it's the PLAYERS!!  They hit the jackpot with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, and Puyol all coming up at once.  They thought they were geniuses at La Masia and thought the pipeline would never end because they thought they "created" the players.  They may have refined them, but they didn't create them.  They need a complete overhaul and better scouting.  This is the end of Messi/Ronaldo era.  Next superstar Erling Haaland, 20 year old striker from Dortmund.


I'm gonna have to disagree partially.  They were doing just fine until they thought any coach would do.  Coaching matters in soccer too. 

Players matter first but without a good method to refine players, they will not reach their potential.  A lot of the La Masia system has been reviewed and adapted or improved by other soccer programs.  This may upset a lot of people but a lot of players that went thru the DA system, at least partially, are doing very well right now in Europe.


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 17, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> That designation goes to Marcelo


Um Andrew Robertson says hello....  But.. Davies was very impressive for 19.  Don't know he will be LB for long though.


----------



## paytoplay (Aug 17, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Goes to show the most important part of any sport is the PLAYERS.  It's not La Masia, it's not TikiTaka, it's not Guardiola, it's not the coaches, it's the PLAYERS!!  They hit the jackpot with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, and Puyol all coming up at once.  They thought they were geniuses at La Masia and thought the pipeline would never end because they thought they "created" the players.  They may have refined them, but they didn't create them.  They need a complete overhaul and better scouting.  This is the end of Messi/Ronaldo era.  Next superstar Erling Haaland, 20 year old striker from Dortmund.


Important thing about Barca is the system. The right players committed to a special brand of soccer. The club did not find replacements for players that left, Iniesta, Neymar. They’ve been making do. Attrition catches up eventually. And Barca were exposed...in the quarters of Champions League to the team that will likely win the tournament.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 17, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Um Andrew Robertson says hello....  But.. Davies was very impressive for 19.  Don't know he will be LB for long though.


Both are moving up fast and will surpass Marcelo as his career comes to a close. Davies is and will be  a lot of fun to watch over his career and Robertson is in the conversation for sure.


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 17, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> Important thing about Barca is the system. The right players committed to a special brand of soccer. The club did not find replacements for players that left, Iniesta, Neymar. They’ve been making do. Attrition catches up eventually. And Barca were exposed...in the quarters of Champions League to the team that will likely win the tournament.


And now they are saying the Barca style is out of date.  When your system relies on a once in a generation talent (messi) to work it may not be replicate-able.  Pep was the one to introduce it and without Messi it likely doesn't work.

The other issue is Real Madrid and Barca can no longer dominate the leagues financially.  They can't go and buy whoever they want and right now and are no longer the desirable locations they once were.  They will have pull in Spain and from the South American countries but I am thinking La Liga will face significant headwinds for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> And now they are saying the Barca style is out of date.  When your system relies on a once in a generation talent (messi) to work it may not be replicate-able.  Pep was the one to introduce it and without Messi it likely doesn't work.
> 
> The other issue is Real Madrid and Barca can no longer dominate the leagues financially.  They can't go and buy whoever they want and right now and are no longer the desirable locations they once were.  They will have pull in Spain and from the South American countries but I am thinking La Liga will face significant headwinds for the foreseeable future.


I was reading last night that Messi wants out. And wants out now.









						Lionel Messi wants out at Barcelona after Champions League disaster, per report
					

The Argentine's contract is set to expire after next season




					www.cbssports.com


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 17, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> I was reading last night that Messi wants out. And wants out now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the flip side, he pushed for the hiring of thE new Manager.  Maybe his, “I want out” was a hard line against the ousted manager.


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 17, 2020)

According to Surf "study", Surf had 800 players attending all 20 sessions giving them 16 000 player sessions?


----------



## Mosafie (Aug 17, 2020)

Interesting study. But it's highly flawed.

First San Diego only allowed soccer under day camp rules during study so social distancing, masks, grouped activities were mandated. No games happened.

What is the rate if transmission during open practice and games?

What is the rate of transmission between teans from different cities?

It's also summer and high heat low humidity kills the Virus. What happens in fall when weather is more favorable to viral spread?

We are not going to get any answers because pro teams that are playing real games are doing so in strictly closed bubbles.


----------



## lafalafa (Aug 17, 2020)

Mosafie said:


> Interesting study. But it's highly flawed.
> 
> First San Diego only allowed soccer under day camp rules during study so social distancing, masks, grouped activities were mandated. No games happened.
> 
> ...


More of a position piece than a scientific study.

Some pro/semi leagues have been playing locally in USL and other leagues.  Some limited outbreaks so far and corrective measures taken and they will be continuing on.   In another 2-3 months there should be more real world data on the risks of actually game play for that group which is mostly adults but there is some high school aged players participating.


----------



## STX (Aug 17, 2020)

Mosafie said:


> Interesting study. But it's highly flawed.
> 
> First San Diego only allowed soccer under day camp rules during study so social distancing, masks, grouped activities were mandated. No games happened.
> 
> ...


Dallas has been training normally for about 3 months now.  Been playing games and traveling and doing tournaments for about 6 weeks.

_What is the rate if transmission during open practice and games?  _So far, 0%.

_What is the rate of transmission between teams from different cities? _ So far, 0%

_It's also summer and high heat low humidity kills the Virus. What happens in fall when weather is more favorable to viral spread?_  Good question, and definitely something to keep an eye on.  It's hot as hell here, and that may be contributing to the apparent safety so far.

_We are not going to get any answers because pro teams that are playing real games are doing so in strictly closed bubbles. _ I don't think a pro or college environment (where players live, eat, train, meet, and also play soccer together) is the best proxy for this.  If you look at other high school sports where the sleep/eat/train/meet part of the equation is removed, I think it becomes more of an apples to apples comparison. Texas high schools did a study of the more than 165,000 instances of kids who participated in football practices this summer, and there were 4 cases of player-to-player transmission due to the workouts.  That means about 1 in about 16,000, or a 0.006%, of players who participated in a practice caught the virus.  That's probably a better comparison to use for soccer risk than most other things I've seen.


----------



## zebrafish (Aug 19, 2020)

This "research" is nothing more than propaganda by Surf.
This would never pass any type of peer-review necessary to be published in a reputable medical journal.

There are so many flaws in this. Where to start?

First, the source of the study and the ones responsible for the data collection and reporting have an incredible conflict of interest-- Surf (and all other soccer organizations) have a vested interest in playing soccer. This is like asking whether tobacco-industry sponsored research is flawed/biased. The answer is... yes.
Second, I highly doubt that there was random testing going on in the study population. They were simply relying on self-reporting. We know there are many individuals with asymptomatic infections, especially in the pediatric age group. So many more people likely had infections-- they just didn't know, and the study was almost certainly not designed to find the true infection rate or transmission rate (this would require widespread testing of the athletes at multiple time points).
Third, and this point has been addressed in the thread already-- lots of these activities (like playing soccer outside) are "pretty safe" but not "absolutely safe". And if you add up a lot of "pretty safe" activities together with an infection rate that is relatively high in the general population, you get an outbreak that affects other segments of society that we have deemed important.

The most recent virus surge in July for OC was directly related to relaxing of social distancing. And yes, the infection rate went up a lot, and the number of patients in hospital ICUs went up a lot. This isn't rocket science.

If we just "open up" and let people's sense of personal liberties decide what they do, our hospitals will quickly be overwhelmed. And, yes, people in their 40s and 50s are suffering permanent debilitating infections and dying from this infection.

The frustrating thing from my perspective is that people's lack of adherence to the guidelines is simply prolonging this whole mess. If we could get the infection rate down to a very low level, we could open up. But people don't want to make the sacrifice and we all suffer the consequences-- we're stuck in this purgatory of low but not low enough. Hopefully an effective vaccine emerges at the end of this year or early next year.


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 19, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> I was reading last night that Messi wants out. And wants out now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


will he come to the Galaxy though?


----------



## dad4 (Aug 19, 2020)

zebrafish said:


> This "research" is nothing more than propaganda by Surf.
> This would never pass any type of peer-review necessary to be published in a reputable medical journal.
> 
> There are so many flaws in this. Where to start?
> ...


I thought the Surf white paper was pretty good for what it was.

It was not a very good submission to an academic journal.  It was also not a very good recipe for hummus.

I agree we need academic work on this, but why expect a soccer club to be able to provide that?


----------



## Emma (Aug 19, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> will he come to the Galaxy though?


I'll pay $500 towards his salary.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Aug 19, 2020)

zebrafish said:


> This "research" is nothing more than propaganda by Surf.
> This would never pass any type of peer-review necessary to be published in a reputable medical journal.
> 
> There are so many flaws in this. Where to start?
> ...


Well said....what is sad is there is such simple stuff that could make the difference.  I went down the hill to work with my daughter and there were 2 teams training.  I believe 1 was a rec. team and the other was a prominent club team.  There was no social distancing with the rec. team and the club team was sitting shoulder to shoulder in a half circle around the unmasked coach and there were parents there in a group with no masks on.  There is no benefit to breaking the guidelines they did, and I think those actions are worse then the potential exposure from actually playing the game.  It was just plain stupid!  It is so easy to sit 6 ft apart and the same conversation or whatever was taking place could have been achieved.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 19, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> There was no social distancing with the rec. team and the club team was sitting shoulder to shoulder in a half circle around the unmasked coach and there were parents there in a group with no masks on.  There is no benefit to breaking the guidelines they did, and I think those actions are worse then the potential exposure from actually playing the game.  It was just plain stupid!  It is so easy to sit 6 ft apart and the same conversation or whatever was taking place could have been achieved.


I see this as what will kill the opportunity to play games in CA this fall. The actual soccer - training and games - have a very low risk (my opinion based on training in TX and AZ and games in TX). However, socialization before, during, or after training/games has a significant risk. From what I can gather by what has been posted, the restrictions put in by TX are more strict and followed better than what I am hearing from people in CA.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

New study out of China.  Asymptomatic spread is much smaller risk than symptomatic.  It means screening kids for actual symptoms should reduce the risk of outdoor activities, like youth soccer.





__





						ACP Journals
					





					www.acpjournals.org


----------



## Copa9 (Aug 19, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Another honest question. At what point does significant evidence that indicates that outdoor sports activity is a very low-risk activity push the burden of proof to the claim that it is otherwise?


When there is a world wide pandemic.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

Today we had our doctors (including some highly placed doctors) give an update to our school.  They confirmed that pediatric doses have not started testing and the government is planning on putting kids lower on the list.  Their best guess was fall of 2021 for a pediatric vaccine.  So if you believe the kids have to be absolutely safe before they are allowed to play or go to school, we are only 1/3 of the way through this.  Yes, things will get better as transmissions lower with more people catching it and vaccines and new therapies, but we aren't getting to total kid safety/no kid transmission until well towards the end of 2021.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 19, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> When there is a world wide pandemic.


Yes, Copa, the pandemic is why soccer was restricted without any studies/evidence that indicated playing soccer transmitted the virus. My point is that now we have evidence - quite a bit actually given how long they have been playing soccer in Texas - that soccer is a very low-risk activity. So, how much evidence is enough to "overturn" a decision based on no evidence?


----------



## Copa9 (Aug 19, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> When there is a world wide pandemic.


Didn't finish, when there is a world wide pandemic you need accurate, scientific, verifiable, data, peer reviewed proof that it is low risk, not a bunch of PR people for Surf or soccer parents saying it is low risk. There is still much to be learned about this virus.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 19, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Today we had our doctors (including some highly placed doctors) give an update to our school.  They confirmed that pediatric doses have not started testing and the government is planning on putting kids lower on the list.  Their best guess was fall of 2021 for a pediatric vaccine.  So if you believe the kids have to be absolutely safe before they are allowed to play or go to school, we are only 1/3 of the way through this.  Yes, things will get better as transmissions lower with more people catching it and vaccines and new therapies, but we aren't getting to total kid safety/no kid transmission until well towards the end of 2021.


An adult vaccine could lower case rates enough that the risk for kids is lower.

Also, we worry about kids mostly because they might give it to an adult.  If that adult is 50% or 80% immune, there is less to worry about.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 19, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Today we had our doctors (including some highly placed doctors) give an update to our school.  They confirmed that pediatric doses have not started testing and the government is planning on putting kids lower on the list.  Their best guess was fall of 2021 for a pediatric vaccine.  So if you believe the kids have to be absolutely safe before they are allowed to play or go to school, we are only 1/3 of the way through this.  Yes, things will get better as transmissions lower with more people catching it and vaccines and new therapies, but we aren't getting to total kid safety/no kid transmission until well towards the end of 2021.


Unfortunately this is going to last a lot longer vs what the stay at home and wait for a vaccine think


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

dad4 said:


> An adult vaccine could lower case rates enough that the risk for kids is lower.
> 
> Also, we worry about kids mostly because they might give it to an adult.  If that adult is 50% or 80% immune, there is less to worry about.



You only think this because you're a middle of the roader.

If you really think soccer/contact sports/schools are higher risk, schools would still be germ factories where kids (where only those that had it would be immune) could pass it to each other and where we'd have to shut down teams/schools if there's even an outbreak of a handful of cases.  If we buy into these assumptions (as California, but not you, seemingly has), we are a good year away from kid's lives returning somewhat back to normal.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> When there is a world wide pandemic.


Even that definition is problematic.  If you define epidemic as a disease causing excess deaths year over year of all causes, the US is technically no longer in an epidemic.  It's all words.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 19, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You only think this because you're a middle of the roader.
> 
> If you really think soccer/contact sports/schools are higher risk, schools would still be germ factories where kids (where only those that had it would be immune) could pass it to each other and where we'd have to shut down teams/schools if there's even an outbreak of a handful of cases.  If we buy into these assumptions (as California, but not you, seemingly has), we are a good year away from kid's lives returning somewhat back to normal.


Doesn’t matter too much what CA thinks now.  If cases drop below 100 per day, people will relax and schools will open.  

The bigger risk is that we get a half-useful vaccine that only half of us take.

Middle of the road is great.  You have a nice view of the semi trucks coming from both sides.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Middle of the road is great.  You have a nice view of the semi trucks coming from both sides.


Generally agree but there is this quote from my youth: "Walk right side, safe.  Walk left side, safe.  Walk middle sooner or later you get squished like grape."


----------



## Socal United (Aug 19, 2020)

So what happens when you can't attend a Galaxy game, go into a bar or restaurant, many, many other activities without proof that you have been vaccinated for the virus?  I think that is a real possibility, it absolves them of any worry if a breakout occurs.  I am not advocating it but I see it as a way many of these places cover their asses for the foreseeable future.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 19, 2020)

Socal United said:


> So what happens when you can't attend a Galaxy game, go into a bar or restaurant, many, many other activities without proof that you have been vaccinated for the virus?  I think that is a real possibility, it absolves them of any worry if a breakout occurs.  I am not advocating it but I see it as a way many of these places cover their asses for the foreseeable future.


What would happen is we all get our shots and this bloody thing goes away.  

For the 95% of us who aren't rabidly anti-vax, it would be awesome.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 19, 2020)

Socal United said:


> So what happens when you can't attend a Galaxy game, go into a bar or restaurant, many, many other activities without proof that you have been vaccinated for the virus?  I think that is a real possibility, it absolves them of any worry if a breakout occurs.  I am not advocating it but I see it as a way many of these places cover their asses for the foreseeable future.


But kids won't be able to show such proof until fall 2021 until the earliest which if you are right for them this lockdown is going to be a long one, even as adults return to bars, restaurants, Galaxy games and Disneyland.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Didn't finish, when there is a world wide pandemic you need accurate, scientific, verifiable, data, peer reviewed proof that it is low risk, not a bunch of PR people for Surf or soccer parents saying it is low risk. There is still much to be learned about this virus.


So, do we only know that someone got the virus after a peer-reviewed study exists? Where's espola? This is nonsense. If the soccer activities described by STX above haven't led to a known outbreak it's because there wasn't one. I agree there's more to learn about the virus, but we know all we need to know about the spread from the activity of playing soccer. The risk is low or we'd know by now that it is not. Thank Texas for that.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, do we only know that someone got the virus after a peer-reviewed study exists? Where's espola? This is nonsense. If the soccer activities described by STX above haven't led to a known outbreak it's because there wasn't one. I agree there's more to learn about the virus, but we know all we need to know about the spread from the activity of playing soccer. The risk is low or we'd know by now that it is not. Thank Texas for that.


Why do you think you would know?  If 100,000 people across Texas went to soccer tournaments and 450 of them got covid over the next 2 weeks, what makes you think you would know about it?   Even if all 450 got tested, Texas had over 100,000 new covid cases in the last 2 weeks.  How would you find 450 in that sea of over 100,000 cases?   Now remember that most cases don’t get tested.  How would you find 50 cases in a sea of 100,000 cases?

Unless Texas has a rigorous reporting program for the immediate family of all participants, you and I would have no way to know whether there were 2 or 2000 cases of covid linked to soccer this spring.


----------



## espola (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> So, do we only know that someone got the virus after a peer-reviewed study exists? Where's espola? This is nonsense. If the soccer activities described by STX above haven't led to a known outbreak it's because there wasn't one. I agree there's more to learn about the virus, but we know all we need to know about the spread from the activity of playing soccer. The risk is low or we'd know by now that it is not. Thank Texas for that.


You're trying really hard to feel comfortable with the position you like.  My suggestion for how we can all feel better about this - you should move to Texas.


----------



## EOTL (Aug 20, 2020)

espola said:


> You're trying really hard to feel comfortable with the position you like.  My suggestion for how we can all feel better about this - you should move to Texas.


@kickingandscreaming is using a critical component of the denialist’s repertoire.  When a denialist lacks scientific support for their position, what do they do when science vs. nuh uh isn’t exactly a compelling argument?  They make up straw man arguments to tear down what science has already proven with the “see, there’s still a lot to learn so therefore we should ignore everything science has already proven about the subject”.  Sure, science has shown it is highly transmissible. Sure, science has proven that it is transmissible long before there are symptoms. Sure, science has proven that kids get it and can transmit it to their parents, and parents can and do transmit it to people they come in contact with, including their parents, their co-workers and the person sitting next to them at the bar. Sure, science has shown that the US is tracking 400k deaths in 12 months because Americans won’t do what every single other country that has significantly reduced community spread has done. 

But has a peer review study specifically proven that it was Caitlyn at the Solar tournament gave it to Katelyn, who then gave it to her mom, who then took it to work at the nursing home and killed all the residents? No? Well, ok then, let’s all go back to our bars, and school, and playing soccer as if nothing is happening. If science hasn’t definitively proven that Katelyn was the one who gave it to her mom who then gave it to everyone in that rest home where everyone died, clearly there’s no evidence
to justify Katelyn doing anything differently.  And if Katelyn need not do anything differently, that means no one else needs to either.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t think my kids should do anything differently until a peer reviewed article proves they were personally responsible for killing a bunch of people.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Why do you think you would know?  If 100,000 people across Texas went to soccer tournaments and 450 of them got covid over the next 2 weeks, what makes you think you would know about it?


I am not sure what you state above has to do with what Texas is doing. They are training with very specific protocols and the games they do play have very strict protocols for players and fans. There have been no reported outbreaks. I am not saying the risk is zero, just that the act of playing soccer is a low risk. I believe we should proceed with an abundance of caution w.r.t. the virus. My point is simply that there is NO evidence that playing soccer transmits COVID and significant evidence - weeks of trainings/games and no reported outbreaks - that the risk is small.

If soccer games and trainings are resumed in CA, my concern is with social activities typically associated with soccer. Sitting around in close proximity and having conversations - especially indoors - is a high-risk activity.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

EOTL said:


> @kickingandscreaming is using a critical component of the denialist’s repertoire.  When a denialist lacks scientific support for their position, what do they do when science vs. nuh uh isn’t exactly a compelling argument?  They make up straw man arguments to tear down what science has already proven with the “see, there’s still a lot to learn so therefore we should ignore everything science has already proven about the subject”.  Sure, science has shown it is highly transmissible. Sure, science has proven that it is transmissible long before there are symptoms. Sure, science has proven that kids get it and can transmit it to their parents, and parents can and do transmit it to people they come in contact with, including their parents, their co-workers and the person sitting next to them at the bar. Sure, science has shown that the US is tracking 400k deaths in 12 months because Americans won’t do what every single other country that has significantly reduced community spread has done.
> 
> But has a peer review study specifically proven that it was Caitlyn at the Solar tournament gave it to Katelyn, who then gave it to her mom, who then took it to work at the nursing home and killed all the residents? No? Well, ok then, let’s all go back to our bars, and school, and playing soccer as if nothing is happening. If science hasn’t definitively proven that Katelyn was the one who gave it to her mom who then gave it to everyone in that rest home where everyone died, clearly there’s no evidence
> to justify Katelyn doing anything differently.  And if Katelyn need not do anything differently, that means no one else needs to either.
> ...


I think you have it backwards.  The ones asking for a peer reviewed study are mostly in the stay safe camp.  We’re still doing distanced practice and solo videos.

We want the study because we’re following the rules and would like Kaitlyn and Catelyn to be able to play again.   At least 1v1.  We will invite Kaytelyn and Caitlynne after the science says that 2v2 is safe.  Maybe later they could challenge Aidan, Aiden, Caiden, and Brayden to 4v4.  But only if it’s safe.


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

I may be getting old, but I remember back in the day when we used to say "flatten the curve" and we worried about people dying in hospital hallways because doctors had to decide who lived and died since we weren't going to have enough ventilators.  Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!" and they have to wait for lab results from comprehensive peer reviewed studies instead of actual real world results, which us old timers thought were sufficient.  I miss the good ole days.


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 20, 2020)

espola said:


> You're trying really hard to feel comfortable with the position you like.  My suggestion for how we can all feel better about this - you should move to Texas.


LOL... Try to find a Uhaul in SoCal right now.  Think many people are taking your suggestion.


----------



## EOTL (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I think you have it backwards.  The ones asking for a peer reviewed study are mostly in the stay safe camp.  We’re still doing distanced practice and solo videos.
> 
> We want the study because we’re following the rules and would like Kaitlyn and Catelyn to be able to play again.   At least 1v1.  We will invite Kaytelyn and Caitlynne after the science says that 2v2 is safe.  Maybe later they could challenge Aidan, Aiden, Caiden, and Brayden to 4v4.  But only if it’s safe.


Yes, intelligent people are asking for more science and peer review because, you know, more info is always better in less.

Denialists, however, are pointing to the lack of definitive proof on a straw man issue not because they want more science. Rather, they’re doing so to rationalize continuing idiocy in the face of overwhelming scientific proof to the contrary. Claiming that there is no peer review study on something that is really a non-issue provides a fake patina of being “pro science” when they’re actually the exact opposite.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> I may be getting old, but I remember back in the day when we used to say "flatten the curve" and we worried about people dying in hospital hallways because doctors had to decide who lived and died since we weren't going to have enough ventilators.  Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!" and they have to wait for lab results from comprehensive peer reviewed studies instead of actual real world results, which us old timers thought were sufficient.  I miss the good ole days.


Yes, consensus is elusive. In fairness, there is still a lot that is unknown and people have very different risk tolerances and see the risks very differently. I like the fact that I can see different perspectives here.


----------



## Nfarr67291 (Aug 20, 2020)

Don't know if you seen this. Get the word out. https://www.change.org/p/gavin-newsom-kids-1st-in-reopening-through-covid?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=c4bc1350-e035-11ea-85ed-2701fb40c11e


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 20, 2020)

EOTL said:


> @kickingandscreaming is Sure, science has proven that it is transmissible long before there are symptoms. Sure, science has proven that kids get it and can transmit it to their parents, and parents can and do transmit it to people they come in contact with, including their parents, their co-workers and the person sitting next to them at the bar. S


I love it when the lockdowners forever quote "science" but deny it when it doesn't suite their position.  If you look at the studies I put up in the bad news thread, science is also showing that asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread are very small components of the outbreak.  Yes, it does happen.  It explains why Israel and a few other locations had outbreaks at their schools, but why overwhelmingly the rest of the world has managed to open schools safely.  But if we are looking for the threats, science is proving that asymptomatic spread is not the main problem (unless, of course, the goal is to get to zero spread as some on the pro-lockdowners seem to suggest in which case everything is a problem).  By screaning kids for symptoms, limiting the people present, and playing exclusively outdoors, we can minimize risk in soccer.


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, consensus is elusive. In fairness, there is still a lot that is unknown and people have very different risk tolerances and see the risks very differently. I like the fact that I can see different perspectives here.


I totally understand the difference in risk tolerances.  That's why I've always supported choice and not just the option that is based on the opinions of the most feeble minded.   Which is more selfish and narrow minded? Like you said, we didn't need a lab to issue a comprehensive peer reviewed study to shutdown, then we shouldn't need one to open up.  Actual real world results should be sufficient and it still leaves open the option for everyone to participate in the "reopening", or not.  Not having full soccer play barely moves the needle for me, but not having in-person education puts me way past redline, particularly when the science overwhelmingly supports in-person learning.


----------



## gotothebushes (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> LOL... Try to find a Uhaul in SoCal right now.  Think many people are taking your suggestion.


 I'm moving to Colorado! They're playing soccer there!


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> but not having in-person education puts me way past redline, particularly when the science overwhelmingly supports in-person learning.


Bingo.


----------



## Glitterhater (Aug 20, 2020)

The only thing that bothers me about in person learning is that inevitably, someone is going to test positive-then guess what? School shuts down again, rinse, repeat. All the open close, open close, is so disruptive to their learning. I guess this is where you hope the schools have their stuff together so this is seamless. I don't know what the answer is anymore.


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 20, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> The only thing that bothers me about in person learning is that inevitably, someone is going to test positive-then guess what? School shuts down again, rinse, repeat. All the open close, open close, is so disruptive to their learning. I guess this is where you hope the schools have their stuff together so this is seamless. I don't know what the answer is anymore.


Said it before and Ill say it again.....

If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> I may be getting old, but I remember back in the day when we used to say "flatten the curve" and we worried about people dying in hospital hallways because doctors had to decide who lived and died since we weren't going to have enough ventilators.  Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!" and they have to wait for lab results from comprehensive peer reviewed studies instead of actual real world results, which us old timers thought were sufficient.  I miss the good ole days.


Excellent work


----------



## chiefs (Aug 20, 2020)

R


watfly said:


> I may be getting old, but I remember back in the day when we used to say "flatten the curve" and we worried about people dying in hospital hallways because doctors had to decide who lived and died since we weren't going to have enough ventilators.  Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!" and they have to wait for lab results from comprehensive peer reviewed studies instead of actual real world results, which us old timers thought were sufficient.  I miss the good ole days.


Just wait, it’s such an easy readable their response. The vaccine will be released and their next position will be: vaccine is unsafe it was made too quick; vaccine is unreliable; vaccine is not effective enough; they will continue to move the goal posts.  As parents we can’t allow that to happen to our kids it’s garbage.  Long term mental health is the biggest issue for children.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Said it before and Ill say it again.....
> 
> If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


They can’t protect the cashiers.   The cashiers are getting sick. 

The working class neighborhoods in NYC had far higher antibody rates than the wealthier areas.  One part of Queens had over 50% get it.  Most of the people there were essential workers- like cashiers.


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> They can’t protect the cashiers.   The cashiers are getting sick.
> 
> The working class neighborhoods in NYC had far higher antibody rates than the wealthier areas.  One part of Queens had over 50% get it.  Most of the people there were essential workers- like cashiers.


Just NYC is a very small sample size and a dubious one at that.  NYC is the very worst environment for this and is atypical.  There have to be over 500,000 cashiers of various types throughout the country and I don't see them wanting to close the stores as they are all sick.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> The only thing that bothers me about in person learning is that inevitably, someone is going to test positive-then guess what? School shuts down again, rinse, repeat. All the open close, open close, is so disruptive to their learning. I guess this is where you hope the schools have their stuff together so this is seamless. I don't know what the answer is anymore.


I thought the exact same thing today.  It's all one big tease and playing yo yo with the kids emotion.  That's why it will take a vaccine to come out and play in Cali.  It is what it is.  My friend in the AC biz is super busy.  However, he has no one to help him with his little kids.  I wonder what kind of power a AC Guy Union Group would have right now with the heat at 106?  They could ask and demand many things on us and get what they want most likely because they would have us by the balls like other unions.  Poor AC guy has no choice but to risk his life to put food on the table.  Gnarly!!!


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> The only thing that bothers me about in person learning is that inevitably, someone is going to test positive-then guess what? School shuts down again, rinse, repeat. All the open close, open close, is so disruptive to their learning. I guess this is where you hope the schools have their stuff together so this is seamless. I don't know what the answer is anymore.


It will happen and there is no perfect answer. but I believe it worth trying.  I know some districts are putting kids in "cohorts" so you stay with the same group of kids.  One of the kids in your cohort group gets sick and your group has to go back to online learning for 2 weeks.  My son's district was offering parents the choice of 100% in person, 100% online or 50/50, before the Governor shut down all in person learning.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> It will happen and there is no perfect answer. but I believe it worth trying.  I know some districts are putting kids in "cohorts" so you stay with the same group of kids.  One of the kids in your cohort group gets sick and your group has to go back to online learning for 2 weeks.  My son's district was offering parents the choice of 100% in person, 100% online or 50/50, before the Governor shut it down all in person learning.


Cohorts would be great.  My older kids school axed cohorts because they couldn’t bear the thought of no electives.  ( First world problems. )


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> They can’t protect the cashiers.   The cashiers are getting sick.
> 
> The working class neighborhoods in NYC had far higher antibody rates than the wealthier areas.  One part of Queens had over 50% get it.  Most of the people there were essential workers- like cashiers.


Was that very early before any real protocols were in place or are cashiers still getting sick in NYC? Working-class neighborhoods are typically more crowded and my guess is it is a greater burden to get their necessities delivered and avoid crowds at the stores. Also, I am thinking in Queens there are a lot of mom and pop shops that can't easily set up plastic shields, enforce masks, etc. Just a guess though. My impression is that in our area, cashiers appear to be safe, but that's simply based on me not hearing otherwise as I scan through the articles.


----------



## happy9 (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Said it before and Ill say it again.....
> 
> If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


The complete inability of school districts to motivate themselves to intellectually work through the problem and solve it is mind blowing.  Motivated (and well funded) school districts up and down the east coast are implementing plans (that will be uncomfortable to fund and execute) that address the key issues of bringing kids back to school in safe and efficient  manner.  Social distancing, reducing daily child density, cleaning, testing.  All hard things to do but they are willing to undertake it.  Private schools are doing the same thing. 

Meanwhile, here in the SW and West, all we get is "look at data" and "we can't and shouldn't".  Frustrating to say the least and almost criminal if you think of the impact that will be achieved (yes, I use the word achieved) on kids who do not have the luxury of good WIFI, parent availability, and access to technology.

There , that is my rant, now back to soccer.


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## espola (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> LOL... Try to find a Uhaul in SoCal right now.  Think many people are taking your suggestion.


Local UHaul has them available next week - $19.95 plus $.99/mile for a "1-bedroom or studio" size.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 20, 2020)

espola said:


> Local UHaul has them available next week - $19.95 plus $.99/mile for a "1-bedroom or studio" size.


He is referring to more people wanting to leave vs come to CA.  All one has to do is look at Uhaul rates. Note the difference in prices.


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

happy9 said:


> The complete inability of school districts to motivate themselves to intellectually work through the problem and solve it is mind blowing.  Motivated (and well funded) school districts up and down the east coast are implementing plans (that will be uncomfortable to fund and execute) that address the key issues of bringing kids back to school in safe and efficient  manner.  Social distancing, reducing daily child density, cleaning, testing.  All hard things to do but they are willing to undertake it.  Private schools are doing the same thing.
> 
> Meanwhile, here in the SW and West, all we get is "look at data" and "we can't and shouldn't".  Frustrating to say the least and almost criminal if you think of the impact that will be achieved (yes, I use the word achieved) on kids who do not have the luxury of good WIFI, parent availability, and access to technology.
> 
> There , that is my rant, now back to soccer.


From an infectious disease doctor









						Jeannette L. Aldous: Keeping kids home is harming children and society, especially communities of color
					

What is more “essential” than school?




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				




_"When I speak with my medical colleagues about school closure, we marvel at how it seems like rational thinking has gone out the window on this topic. People talk about protecting children, yet they embrace a policy that produces documented harm to children in exchange for benefits which are theoretical or minimal at best. "_


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> "When I speak with my medical colleagues about school closure, we marvel at how it seems like rational thinking has gone out the window on this topic. People talk about protecting children, yet they embrace a policy that produces documented harm to children in exchange for benefits which are theoretical or minimal at best. "


The issue is people are using emotion vs looking at the data. A lot on this board refuse to look at the data.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 20, 2020)

chiefs said:


> R
> 
> Long term mental health is the biggest issue for children.


As well as some of our friends in here.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> From an infectious disease doctor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure Espy will say she'a Witch Doctor.  Scary times were about to enter folks.  I know who the winner will be but getting to the finish line will be rough and some wont make it.  They wont like the change that is coming.


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## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Was that very early before any real protocols were in place or are cashiers still getting sick in NYC? Working-class neighborhoods are typically more crowded and my guess is it is a greater burden to get their necessities delivered and avoid crowds at the stores. Also, I am thinking in Queens there are a lot of mom and pop shops that can't easily set up plastic shields, enforce masks, etc. Just a guess though. My impression is that in our area, cashiers appear to be safe, but that's simply based on me not hearing otherwise as I scan through the articles.


I don’t know if cashiers are still getting sick in NYC.  I do know that essential workers have higher rates of covid than those who are lucky enough to work from home.

The store near me seems to have new cashiers every month.  I don’t know if that is because people quit or because they get sick, or both.


----------



## happy9 (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> From an infectious disease doctor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty soon ( like today, tomorrow, etc) school districts are going to see a substantial enough exodus that it''s going to impact funding.  Private schools/charters are figuring it out and parents are taking notice.  *I'm convinced the level of incompetence and complacency (basically the definition of a bureaucracy) in many school districts are close to being insurmountable barriers.* They aren't motivated by anything (except maybe loss of $$). It's too bad, plenty of good teachers in the public school system.  They will look elsewhere and will find a place as private schools/charters shed teachers who aren't willing to assume "risk" or they are in need of more teachers in order to effectively teach in this new environment.  

It's like watching a train wreck - and if it goes on for a length of time, the impact is going to very sad to see.


----------



## Frank (Aug 20, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Pretty soon ( like today, tomorrow, etc) school districts are going to see a substantial enough exodus that it''s going to impact funding.  Private schools/charters are figuring it out and parents are taking notice.  *I'm convinced the level of incompetence and complacency (basically the definition of a bureaucracy) in many school districts are close to being insurmountable barriers.* They aren't motivated by anything (except maybe loss of $$). It's too bad, plenty of good teachers in the public school system.  They will look elsewhere and will find a place as private schools/charters shed teachers who aren't willing to assume "risk" or they are in need of more teachers in order to effectively teach in this new environment.
> 
> It's like watching a train wreck - and if it goes on for a length of time, the impact is going to very sad to see.


My daughters OC private HS has seen a huge increase in applications and are now turning students away.


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Pretty soon ( like today, tomorrow, etc) school districts are going to see a substantial enough exodus that it''s going to impact funding.  Private schools/charters are figuring it out and parents are taking notice.  *I'm convinced the level of incompetence and complacency (basically the definition of a bureaucracy) in many school districts are close to being insurmountable barriers.* They aren't motivated by anything (except maybe loss of $$). It's too bad, plenty of good teachers in the public school system.  They will look elsewhere and will find a place as private schools/charters shed teachers who aren't willing to assume "risk" or they are in need of more teachers in order to effectively teach in this new environment.
> 
> It's like watching a train wreck - and if it goes on for a length of time, the impact is going to very sad to see.


Yep, the students' education is no longer the priority of California public schools.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

*Happy said "It's like watching a train wreck - and if it goes on for a length of time, the impact is going to very sad to see.*


Frank said:


> *My daughters OC private HS has seen a huge increase in applications and are now turning students away.*


Charter is on fire and Private schools are turning away folks.  I know a big money guy who never makes mistakes with his money and he's going to be starting a new kind of school.  Were meeting tomorrow for cocktails.  I might invest in this.  I promised not to share but you would want your kid in this program from the sounds of it.....


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## Desert Hound (Aug 20, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Pretty soon ( like today, tomorrow, etc) school districts are going to see a substantial enough exodus that it''s going to impact funding. Private schools/charters are figuring it out and parents are taking notice.


Recall that many of the teachers unions are demanding private schools stay closed AND they want the reduction of charter schools. 

Why? Because they don't want parents to see how poorly they perform, and they don't want parents to escape to greener pastures.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Recall that many of the teachers unions are demanding private schools stay closed AND they want the reduction of charter schools.
> 
> Why? Because they don't want parents to see how poorly they perform, and they don't want parents to escape to greener pastures.


Some are even being called, "school hoppers."  Can you imagine that......sic!!!


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I don’t know if cashiers are still getting sick in NYC.  I do know that essential workers have higher rates of covid than those who are lucky enough to work from home.
> 
> The store near me seems to have new cashiers every month.  I don’t know if that is because people quit or because they get sick, or both.


I see a lot of the same people at Whole Foods, Costco and Total Wine - 95% of the shopping I do. I always feel better when they have plastic shields between the customer and the cashier. These stores have them - along with the mask requirement. In the best of times, cashiers have to put up with a lot. These days, I always try to make sure I thank them for being there.


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## Grace T. (Aug 20, 2020)

Frank said:


> My daughters OC private HS has seen a huge increase in applications and are now turning students away.


 My DYS and DOS private schools are also turning away applications (despite both of them being in LA County and still shuttered).   Their elementary school in Ventura County is also oversubscribed with a long waiting list and looking to reopen in 2 weeks.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I see a lot of the same people at Whole Foods, Costco and Total Wine - 95% of the shopping I do. I always feel better when they have plastic shields between the customer and the cashier. These stores have them - along with the mask requirement. In the best of times, cashiers have to put up with a lot. These days, I always try to make sure I thank them for being there.


The old guys at Stater Bros and all grocery folks should get paid triple.  Plus Starbucks, Am/Pm and basically all the workers who are working except the _________________________________________________________________.  They dont feel safe and they are lock step in arms and their life is way more important then the __________________________________________________________ and the parents who have to ________________________________________.  That's why the mass exodus out of the state is happening.  New York City too.  The piggy bank will not get filled up with those folks money.  Other states are getting great people with jobs and money.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> The old guys at Stater Bros and all grocery folks should get paid triple.  Plus Starbucks, Am/Pm and basically all the workers who are working except the _________________________________________________________________.  They dont feel safe and they are lock step in arms and their life is way more important then the __________________________________________________________ and the parents who have to ________________________________________.  That's why the mass exodus out of the state is happening.  New York City too.  The piggy bank will not get filled up with those folks money.  Other states are getting great people with jobs and money.


It will be interesting to see if this is just a "blip" or a real trend. CA "growth" was less than 0.9% from 2016 to 2019 while US population was up about 1.6%. That isn't too big a deal on its own. Now if we start losing employers, that's another story.

I know espola wants me to move to Texas, but my wife doesn't like to sweat. First world problem, I know. She could park the car in the garage and start the AC before pulling out. One thing I do miss about the years I lived in Florida was that if you parked outside, the walk from the door to your car was a good substitute for ironing your outfit.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It will be interesting to see if this is just a "blip" or a real trend. CA "growth" was less than 0.9% from 2016 to 2019 while US population was up about 1.6%. That isn't too big a deal on its own. Now if we start losing employers, that's another story.
> 
> I know espola wants me to move to Texas, but my wife doesn't like to sweat. First world problem, I know. She could park the car in the garage and start the AC before pulling out. One thing I do miss about the years I lived in Florida was that if you parked outside, the walk from the door to your car was a good substitute for ironing your outfit.


I would die in Texas and I visited my bro in Palm Coast Fl and I was attacked by mosquitos.  My bro was the only one without a screen over his pool. I golfed with snakes, no joke.  I saw two snakes looking for my balls after my slices.  I also saw an alligator on the back nine.  My bro was like, "that's Ralph, dont worry about him."  Then the heat and humidity.  Talk about sweat when when you play golf at 11am.  My grip was horrible and club kept slipping out of my hand.  My bro loves it there and hated California.  He worked for Hughes Aircraft in Fullerton with my old man back in the day.  I have to stay in California, I love the ocean and the waves.


----------



## watfly (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Now if we start losing employers, that's another story.


If the split-roll property tax passes in November that will happen.  It will devastate small business.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I would die in Texas and I visited my bro in Palm Coast Fl and I was attacked by mosquitos.  My bro was the only one without a screen over his pool. I golfed with snakes, no joke.  I saw two snakes looking for my balls after my slices.  I also saw an alligator on the back nine.  My bro was like, "that's Ralph, dont worry about him."  Then the heat and humidity.  Talk about sweat when when you play golf at 11am.  My grip was horrible and club kept slipping out of my hand.  My bro loves it there and hated California.  He worked for Hughes Aircraft in Fullerton with my old man back in the day.  I have to stay in California, I love the ocean and the waves.


You'll still have some humidity, but Florida weather is great from mid-October through about mid-April.  Summers are no joke - same with Texas.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> You'll still have some humidity, but Florida weather is great from mid-October through about mid-April.  Summers are no joke - same with Texas.


This week it’s very hot and humid in Socal. If you can handle this weather for a week, you are basically handling Texas weather. The only problem is that in Austin/Houston it’s like this for 4 months. 
    Definitely not for me.


----------



## espola (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> If the split-roll property tax passes in November that will happen.  It will devastate small business.


No, it won't.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!"


Your memory is gone old man, it's "we need more testing," the way it's always been.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> LOL... Try to find a Uhaul in SoCal right now.  Think many people are taking your suggestion.


Who's the alarmist and scaredy cat again?  What next, California is going to fall into the ocean?


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> I'm moving to Colorado! They're playing soccer there!


Don't let the door hit you in the ass!


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Said it before and Ill say it again.....
> 
> If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


Here's the difference dumbass.  When patrons come into a grocery store they are masked up, they move around and don't stay in one place for more than 2-3 minutes, and certainly not directly in front of a grocery store worker.  So even if they are covid positive, the likelihood they will transmit to someone else is low.  In a classroom, you'll have 30 students confined in a classroom for 50 minutes, probably all facing in one direction.  And this will happen 6 times a day, 5 days a week.  

Here, re-read this article to freshen up.  https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

And remember, the most important thing teachers want is testing!  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lausd-superintendent-believes-covid-19-testing-contact-tracing-are-keys-to-reopening-schools/ar-BB178hPd?ocid=msedgdhp

Your sense of smell is faulty, maybe you have covid!


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

watfly said:


> Yep, the students' education is no longer the priority of California public schools.


Alarmist??


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

happy9 said:


> The complete inability of school districts to motivate themselves to intellectually work through the problem and solve it is mind blowing.  Motivated (and well funded) school districts up and down the east coast are implementing plans (that will be uncomfortable to fund and execute) that address the key issues of bringing kids back to school in safe and efficient  manner.  Social distancing, reducing daily child density, cleaning, testing.  All hard things to do but they are willing to undertake it.  Private schools are doing the same thing.
> 
> Meanwhile, here in the SW and West, all we get is "look at data" and "we can't and shouldn't".  Frustrating to say the least and almost criminal if you think of the impact that will be achieved (yes, I use the word achieved) on kids who do not have the luxury of good WIFI, parent availability, and access to technology.
> 
> There , that is my rant, now back to soccer.


Testing my man, testing.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lausd-superintendent-believes-covid-19-testing-contact-tracing-are-keys-to-reopening-schools/ar-BB178hPd?ocid=msedgdhp


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> The issue is people are using emotion vs looking at the data. A lot on this board refuse to look at the data.


Here's my data.      https://www.yahoo.com/news/least-245-teachers-199-students-051724629.html


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Recall that many of the teachers unions are demanding private schools stay closed AND they want the reduction of charter schools.
> 
> Why? Because they don't want parents to see how poorly they perform, and they don't want parents to escape to greener pastures.


Did I mention that teachers want testing.     https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lausd-superintendent-believes-covid-19-testing-contact-tracing-are-keys-to-reopening-schools/ar-BB178hPd?ocid=msedgdhp

Or does it NOT fit your narrative?


----------



## lafalafa (Aug 20, 2020)

Making the best of it....

Both my son and my daughter have completed summer college courses online, worked  jobs, and trainied or exercising 4x a week since about May consistently with the same group of different friends.  Daughter works in food service 4x a week and in contact /w the general public.  

Besides being bummed about some festivals or music events they couldn't go to and maybe a hair or nail place here or there being closed they seem pretty happy in general.  

One of the best things is they found there own ways to be happy:  Son has been training  four days a week even though is team just got back. 

Different stuff from the sand, futsal outdoors, to setting up pitches with the portables they bring along.   1.5-2hrs each session and they run it/travel to different spots, they haven't seem to miss a beat I don't know but with school starting have to be later now.

Really no complaints about missing a tournament or anything and there had king of the courts type friendly or other fun comps they do like points for passing or line scoring.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

Justafan said:


> *Don't let the door hit you in the ass!*


That sounded like my old boss that ran everyone over to Pacific Bell YP.  After almost having no sales reps, they called me up to recruit top sales people to become advertising consultant.  I turned the company around by getting in the trenches and knocking doors with the reps. The other asshole stayed in the office all day and barked out orders.  I'm not like that.  Anyway, we hired outside firm to teach us that losing people like they were was not healthy and most likely a deeper issue.  We found the boss dude was doing other bad things. He got fired and all was better and many of the other reps that left came back.  The grass is not always greener either and the reps just wanted to be treated with respect.  This guy would make reps wear a suit in the IE, no matter how hot it was.  He came from NY and said all pros wear a tie.  I was respectful because he was boss man but I always gave it straight to him behind close doors.  he told me to shut up and be grateful he was my boss.  I said ok, good luck.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 20, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Here's my data.      https://www.yahoo.com/news/least-245-teachers-199-students-051724629.html


Teachers are run by unions and you know who unions hate.
Get a grip.


----------



## Y_T (Aug 20, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Who's the alarmist and scaredy cat again?  What next, California is going to fall into the ocean?


----------



## Y_T (Aug 20, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Did I mention that teachers want testing.     https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lausd-superintendent-believes-covid-19-testing-contact-tracing-are-keys-to-reopening-schools/ar-BB178hPd?ocid=msedgdhp
> 
> Or does it NOT fit your narrative?


----------



## messy (Aug 20, 2020)

Y_T said:


> View attachment 8723


Hey look Justafan...you’ve got a stalker!


----------



## Y_T (Aug 20, 2020)

messy said:


> Hey look Justafan...you’ve got a stalker!


----------



## chiefs (Aug 20, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I see a lot of the same people at Whole Foods, Costco and Total Wine - 95% of the shopping I do. I always feel better when they have plastic shields between the customer and the cashier. These stores have them - along with the mask requirement. In the best of times, cashiers have to put up with a lot. These days, I always try to make sure I thank them for being there.


Every day heroes.  They should be recognized...


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 20, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Here's the difference dumbass.  When patrons come into a grocery store they are masked up, they move around and don't stay in one place for more than 2-3 minutes, and certainly not directly in front of a grocery store worker.  So even if they are covid positive, the likelihood they will transmit to someone else is low.  In a classroom, you'll have 30 students confined in a classroom for 50 minutes, probably all facing in one direction.  And this will happen 6 times a day, 5 days a week.
> 
> Here, re-read this article to freshen up.  https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
> 
> ...


Um.. kids can be masked up... some schools here are requiring faceshields... dumbass.  That is what I am saying.  It can be done and probably a lot cheaper than the online only they are paying for.  I get it.. exposure x time.  So airlines.. trains, virtually any office.. filled with these types oh and .. what?  infection rates are going down.. it cant be.. compensating measures can be effective.

Put a shield in front of the teachers desk just like in the stores.. what does that cost?   You can even have the teacher check temps on the way in and boot those with a fever.  It can totally be done.  So many businesses have successfully adapted schools can too.  And you are saying the 500 or so random adults the cashier sees are LESS risk than the maybe 20 kids that are NOT random...

Oh and your post.. Erin Bromage is a veterinarian.. but nice blog.  If my neighbors cat gets covid Ill subscribe.


----------



## messy (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Um.. kids can be masked up... some schools here are requiring faceshields... dumbass.  That is what I am saying.  It can be done and probably a lot cheaper than the online only they are paying for
> 
> Put a shield in front of the teachers desk just like in the stores.. what does that cost?   You can even have the teacher check temps on the way in and boot those with a fever.  It can totally be done.  So many businesses have successfully adapted schools can too.  And you are saying the 500 or so random adults the cashier sees are LESS risk than the maybe 20 kids that are NOT random...
> 
> Oh and your post.. Erin Bromage is a veterinarian.. but nice blog.  If my neighbors cat gets covid Ill subscribe.


Here’s a bit of her bio... did she leave out the vet part?

Iam a Comparative Immunologist and Professor of Biology (specializing in Immunology) at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. I balance Teaching, Research and Public Service (that is, when we are allowed in our labs).


----------



## tjinaz (Aug 20, 2020)

messy said:


> Here’s a bit of her bio... did she leave out the vet part?
> 
> Iam a Comparative Immunologist and Professor of Biology (specializing in Immunology) at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. I balance Teaching, Research and Public Service (that is, when we are allowed in our labs).


and here is the part you left out.

_. Bromage graduated from the _*School of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences James Cook University, Australia where his research focused on the epidemiology of, and immunity to, infectious disease in animals. His Post-Doctoral training was at the College of William and Mary, Virginia Institute of Marine Science in the Comparative Immunology Laboratory of late Dr. Stephen Kaattari. 

Last I heard people were not on the curriculum at either the school of veterinary nor institute of marine science.*


Here is the link from the NOT veterinarians at the CDC saying open the schools.









						Communities, Schools, Workplaces, & Events
					

Cleaning and Disinfecting: Everyday steps, when someone is sick, and considerations for employers.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 20, 2020)

*Great Park Irvine is 79 degrees right now. * I stayed back with my wife.  Three practices in a row of not watching.


----------



## Glitterhater (Aug 20, 2020)

Y_T said:


> View attachment 8723


This seems like a lot of effort.


----------



## lafalafa (Aug 20, 2020)

Found this article interesting related to risk of death with underlining conditions not transmission but still:

"COVID-19, Los Angeles County's chief medical officer said Thursday high blood pressure and diabetes were the most common underlying ailments in coronavirus patients who have died.


Roughly 92 percent of people who have died in the county from COVID-19 had some type of underlying health condition. In addition to hypertension and diabetes, other common conditions included cardiovascular disease, pulmonary disease, chronic renal disease, obesity, asthma and liver disease. Gunzenhauser noted that some people who died from the virus had more than one underlying condition."









						Top Pre-Existing Conditions For LA Coronavirus Deaths Identified
					

Top Pre-Existing Conditions For LA Coronavirus... - Redondo Beach, CA - The most common underlying ailments in coronavirus deaths in Los Angeles County are high blood pressure and diabetes, officials said.




					patch.com
				




Real research or just statistics?


----------



## Justafan (Aug 20, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Um.. kids can be masked up... some schools here are requiring faceshields... dumbass.  That is what I am saying.  It can be done and probably a lot cheaper than the online only they are paying for.  I get it.. exposure x time.  So airlines.. trains, virtually any office.. filled with these types oh and .. what?  infection rates are going down.. it cant be.. compensating measures can be effective.
> 
> Put a shield in front of the teachers desk just like in the stores.. what does that cost?   You can even have the teacher check temps on the way in and boot those with a fever.  It can totally be done.  So many businesses have successfully adapted schools can too.  And you are saying the 500 or so random adults the cashier sees are LESS risk than the maybe 20 kids that are NOT random...
> 
> Oh and your post.. Erin Bromage is a veterinarian.. but nice blog.  If my neighbors cat gets covid Ill subscribe.


You said it yourself dumbass, exposure x time x (ventilation) is the important factor.  So yes, dumbass 500 people who only spend 1 minute in front of a grocery clerk who is protected by a shield IS LESS RISK than 20-30 kids inside a classroom for 50 minutes DUMBASS!!

And your right, we can protect our teachers with everything you said AND everyday testing.  I’ve been saying that for 2 months.  So what DUMBFUCK hasn’t been smart enough to get all these protections to teachers so all our kids can physically go back to school.  You and I agree, it’s so fucken easy, it’s criminal that it hasn’t been done.

And guess what, Erin Bromage is the one who analyzed the studies and concludes that it’s exposure x time x ventilation/circulation. AND that is partly the point, WHY THE FUCK do we have to rely on people doing side gigs after work or doing experiments in their garage to relay vital information to us.

Everybody here has become a wannabe scientist or statistician trying to figure this shit out and that’s the problem, we have nobody who’s taken control and laid down the hammer on all of this shit.  Where does the buck stop?  We are what our record says we are!


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 20, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Real research or just statistics


Real. We know that from CDC stats and the stats produced by other countries.

We know who is at risk. Let's stop pretending the average person is at risk.

Time for school.

Play ball !!


----------



## dad4 (Aug 20, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Found this article interesting related to risk of death with underlining conditions not transmission but still:
> 
> "COVID-19, Los Angeles County's chief medical officer said Thursday high blood pressure and diabetes were the most common underlying ailments in coronavirus patients who have died.
> 
> ...


Sort of real.

92% had some underlying condition.

The catch is, those underlying conditions are extremely common among older people.  

Among those over 70, you might find that 80 or 85% of all people have at least one underlying condition.

It makes the 92% number far less informative.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Aug 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sort of real.
> 
> 92% had some underlying condition.
> 
> ...


Lack of context is my most common complaint about reporting. The question that needs to be answered when making any point with data is, "What is the baseline?"


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Testing my man, testing.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lausd-superintendent-believes-covid-19-testing-contact-tracing-are-keys-to-reopening-schools/ar-BB178hPd?ocid=msedgdhp


Yep, testing, I get it and don't disagree.  Again, bureaucrats will mumble and  stumble their way to inaction, paralyzed by analysis and listening to ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest in becoming part of the solution.  Have fun in California getting anything done until post election and beyond.  It's a sad state of affairs in CA and the trend is accelerating exponentially.  Literally and figuratively burning down.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 21, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Real. We know that from CDC stats and the stats produced by other countries.
> 
> We know who is at risk. Let's stop pretending the average person is at risk.
> 
> ...


Plus all the motor cycle DOA's and all the stroke victims that tested positive at hospitals when they arrive dead or brain dead.  DH, can you check on the #1 cause of death last year from Jan til August 31 2019 for those over 75?  Thanks-


----------



## lafalafa (Aug 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sort of real.
> 
> 92% had some underlying condition.
> 
> ...


Hypertension yes but the other conditions? None of this runs in my family and  our 93yr old Grammy doesn't have any of those others, neither did my dad or mom.

Kids besides asthma they don't have normally have those underlying conditions do they? 

I have no medical background although transmission and death are different risks classifing youth soccer as medium risk instead of low seems misguided to me and it's hard to find the stats or justification why that is?


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Yep, testing, I get it and don't disagree.  Again, bureaucrats will mumble and  stumble their way to inaction, paralyzed by analysis and listening to ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest in becoming part of the solution.  Have fun in California getting anything done until post election and beyond.  It's a sad state of affairs in CA and the trend is accelerating exponentially.  Literally and figuratively burning down.


“bureaucrats will mumble and stumble.”  

Take this “excuse” out of the hands of the local “bureaucrats.” If the feds had provided all the point of care rapid tests and all ppe, then the bureaucrats have no excuse. 

“ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest. . .”

Intellectually dishonest my friend, you’re arguing “M&M’s in the dressing room.”  Two sentences in a 10 page demand letter, when the rest was ALL about safety.  And you’ve heard it straight from the Superintendent, all they want is testing.

One thing I will say where California got it wrong is if you see the Feds aren’t coming to the rescue then you should take it upon yourself to try and fix it.  I would have gotten on the phone and hit up all the Cali billionaires and asked them to pony up some $$$ so we can buy all the testing and ppe we need for all our schools.

“CA is exponentially burning down”.

Doomsday alarmist?


----------



## dad4 (Aug 21, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Hypertension yes but the other conditions? None of this runs in my family and  our 93yr old Grammy doesn't have any of those others, neither did my dad or mom.
> 
> Kids besides asthma they don't have normally have those underlying conditions do they?
> 
> I have no medical background although transmission and death are different risks classifing youth soccer as medium risk instead of low seems misguided to me and it's hard to find the stats or justification why that is?


Cant tell you why youth soccer got medium high risk.  May depend on how much bumblebee ball you are imagining.

They are counting how many people have at least one of: diabetes, hypertension, heart conditions, cancer, obesity, asthma, and so on.

So, even if all you have is hypertension, you are counted on the underlying condition side of things.  That's the 92%.  And most of the elderly in this country.

The 8% are the ones with absolutely nothing wrong.  No heart trouble, no high blood pressure, no weight problem, no asthma, nothing.  If that's your family, hooray for your good genes and healthy living.


----------



## watfly (Aug 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sort of real.
> 
> 92% had some underlying condition.
> 
> ...


Not just some underlying condition, according to the CDC an average of 2.6 underlying conditions or contributing causes of death.






						COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
					

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.




					www.cdc.gov
				




*"Comorbidities*
_Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death."_

LA County results and CDC results seem very consistent.  6-8% of total deaths are reported as Covid only deaths.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Teachers are run by unions and you know who unions hate.
> Get a grip.


SJ I know you’re a little salty after losing the primary and heading into irrelevancy, but take it out of the union’s hands. It’s very easy to call their bluff in the event they are bluffing. That is completely in YOUR control. It’s always been in your control.

BTW, we had a good night last night SJ!


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> “bureaucrats will mumble and stumble.”
> 
> Take this “excuse” out of the hands of the local “bureaucrats.” If the feds had provided all the point of care rapid tests and all ppe, then the bureaucrats have no excuse.
> 
> ...


Finger point all you want, it's AUG,.  bureacrats exists federally as well.  That's the problem will bureacrats, the finger is always pointed away from them.  I could care less what side of the aisle you sit on, someone take responsibility.  It's obvious you'e planted yourself firmly on one side of the aisle.  It's AUG, not March, April, May, June, July - but august.  Time to pony up some accountability and stop waiting to be saved - you will be waiting for quite some time.  Check out your private and charter schools, they are not waiting for anyone, they have a things to do, kids to teach, teachers to pay. They are moving it along. 

*And I said CA is "literally and figuratively burning down", not  "exponentially burning down"  *I'm not being an alarmist, just look around you, figure out what kind of trajectory the state is headed. - decide for yourself.  Hopefully in 6-7  months CA will still be a great place to visit - I do really like it.

I wish you the best.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> SJ I know you’re a little salty after losing the primary and heading into irrelevancy, but take it out of the union’s hands. It’s very easy to call their bluff in the event they are bluffing. That is completely in YOUR control. It’s always been in your control.
> 
> *BTW, we had a good night last night SJ!*


Noting like having the Light on your side bro.  Congratulations, you found some light.  Just remember bro, some can illuminate the light and trick people.  That's what I'm watching out for.  Let's see what the other side says they have on their side.  Oh joy, I cant wait until November 4th.  I told you back in Feb what was going to happen.  Choose love, not hate.  Love is on both sides and so is hate.  Be very very very careful what you choose.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Finger point all you want, it's AUG,.  bureacrats exists federally as well.  That's the problem will bureacrats, the finger is always pointed away from them.  I could care less what side of the aisle you sit on, someone take responsibility.  It's obvious you'e planted yourself firmly on one side of the aisle.  It's AUG, not March, April, May, June, July - but august.  Time to pony up some accountability and stop waiting to be saved - you will be waiting for quite some time.  Check out your private and charter schools, they are not waiting for anyone, they have a things to do, kids to teach, teachers to pay. They are moving it along.
> 
> *And I said CA is "literally and figuratively burning down", not  "exponentially burning down"  *I'm not being an alarmist, just look around you, figure out what kind of trajectory the state is headed. - decide for yourself.  Hopefully in 6-7  months CA will still be a great place to visit - I do really like it.
> 
> I wish you the best.


"someone take responsibility"  exactly!  It's F'n August, you're right!  Unbeleivable isn't it?  Who calls the shot at your house?  I know my wife and I call the shots in mine, and we are responsible for ALL of the tough decisions we make.  You are finger pointing at everybody but the parent in charge.  You don't have the balls to call out the person who is supposed to be leading this crap.  That you can't do that is so F'n weak and disappointing its pathetic.

"the trend is accelerating exponentially. Literally and figuratively burning down."  Yeah, I call this doomsday alarmist Bull Shit.  Who's the scaredy cat??


----------



## gotothebushes (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Don't let the door hit you in the ass!


 Man that's so wrong of you to say! lol


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

Just take a cruise thru Venice, Downtown, Sherman Oaks and check out the condition the city is in, it is scary


----------



## EOTL (Aug 21, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> The issue is people are using emotion vs looking at the data. A lot on this board refuse to look at the data.


Data: 180,000 dead so far and still tracking about 400,000 over 12 months.

Not Data: Literally every word from Dr. Aldous’s  whiny op-ed commentary, whoever the f**k she is.  Zero. Zippo. Zilch. All emotion. 

I wonder where she got the “people are sayin’” garbage rhetorical technique from?


----------



## messy (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Yep, testing, I get it and don't disagree.  Again, bureaucrats will mumble and  stumble their way to inaction, paralyzed by analysis and listening to ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest in becoming part of the solution.  Have fun in California getting anything done until post election and beyond.  It's a sad state of affairs in CA and the trend is accelerating exponentially.  Literally and figuratively burning down.


That's funny. California has fires every year. This year is no different. And as for "figuratively" burning down, what does that mean? The testing issue is entirely a national issue...anybody knows how the USA tackles disease and epidemics...at the national level.


----------



## EOTL (Aug 21, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> *Happy said "It's like watching a train wreck - and if it goes on for a length of time, the impact is going to very sad to see.*
> 
> Charter is on fire and Private schools are turning away folks.  I know a big money guy who never makes mistakes with his money and he's going to be starting a new kind of school.  Were meeting tomorrow for cocktails.  I might invest in this.  I promised not to share but you would want your kid in this program from the sounds of it.....


This sounds like a great opportunity. Is your friend a Nigerian prince by chance?


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> "someone take responsibility"  exactly!  It's F'n August, you're right!  Unbeleivable isn't it?  *Who calls the shot at your house?  I know my wife and I call the shots in mine, and we are responsible for ALL of the tough decisions we make*.  You are finger pointing at everybody but the parent in charge.  *You don't have the balls to call out the person who is supposed to be leading this crap.  That you can't do that is so F'n weak and disappointing its pathetic.*
> 
> "the trend is accelerating exponentially. Literally and figuratively burning down."  *Yeah, I call this doomsday alarmist Bull Shit.  Who's the scaredy cat??*


Dude, you crack me up but I'll play along.

Quite the silly comparison and how it's even pertinent to this discussion is beyond me - but have at it.  Not having balls to call someone out has nothing to do with anything and again gets nothing done.  Sounds like you are comfortable with bureaucracy.  In my house (to use your comparison, which is still silly by the way), we get stuff done - wife, kids, dog, leopard geckos, the whole shebang.  No reason to waste time bitching and moaning about how the bad actors are keeping us from doing what we need to do.

I don't know where you think my balls went, looked down and they were there.  Who is this person you want me to call out?  If you think I am a fan of the federal government in my life, you are sorely mistaken.  To further politicize something that has been so overly politicized is beyond me. Leave it up to people like you to pump your fist in anger and waste energy on the blame game (goes for both sides by the way).  


And by the way, certainly not scared and it's silly to bring it up.  It's called observation, opinion, and choice - gotta love the ol constitution.  Don't worry, I'll still come visit, CA has great weather most of the year and is a fantastic vacation destination.  What I am scared of is ideology spreading eastward.  If you call me a scaredy cat in that regard, then we are in agreement.


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

messy said:


> That's funny. California has fires every year. This year is no different. And as for "figuratively" burning down, what does that mean? The testing issue is entirely a national issue...anybody knows how the USA tackles disease and epidemics...at the national level.


You are right, testing is a national issue, but there are other issues that can be handled, planned at the local level.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Data: 180,000 dead so far and still tracking about 400,000 over 12 months.
> 
> Not Data: Literally every word from Dr. Aldous’s  whiny op-ed commentary, whoever the f**k she is.  Zero. Zippo. Zilch. All emotion.
> 
> I wonder where she got the “people are sayin’” garbage rhetorical technique from?


Grim statistic but From a Macro level it equals about 0.001% of the population IF we hit the 400k mark you speak of. Which is still below Cancer and Heart Disease.  

My point isn’t that C19 is fake or that we shouldn’t take precautions, it is simply perspective.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This sounds like a great opportunity. Is your friend a Nigerian prince by chance?


No, but my wife's grandma got an email from someone claiming to have inherited millions from Nigeria.  The hang up was the guy needed someone from the USA and their bank account info to get their % of the loot.  She called me for advice and I told her it was all one big hoax.  It was a close one. He's a black American with some money and he's super super smart.  Does not jump into anything without a 99% chance of success.  All that means ETOL, he doesnt piss his money away.  I'll let you know how it goes


----------



## espola (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Yep, testing, I get it and don't disagree.  Again, bureaucrats will mumble and  stumble their way to inaction, paralyzed by analysis and listening to ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest in becoming part of the solution.  Have fun in California getting anything done until post election and beyond.  It's a sad state of affairs in CA and the trend is accelerating exponentially.  Literally and figuratively burning down.


What triggered that rant?


----------



## EOTL (Aug 21, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Grim statistic but From a Macro level it equals about 0.001% of the population IF we hit the 400k mark you speak of. Which is still below Cancer and Heart Disease.
> 
> My point isn’t that C19 is fake or that we shouldn’t take precautions, it is simply perspective.


Grim statistic, but whatevs. What’s 400k more dead people, even when it’s preventable? It’s the price they must pay so I can go to a bar and live vicariously through my daughter.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 21, 2020)




----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Grim statistic, but whatevs. What’s 400k more dead people, even when it’s preventable? It’s the price they must pay so I can go to a bar and live vicariously through my daughter.


Spin it how you’d like, but it really isn’t preventable.  Curbable likely, but not preventable.  If it was preventable, we would not have any deaths from the seasonal flu.

I’m more focused on getting people back to work and some semblance of normalcy for my kids.  I realize that doesn’t affect you but it does MILLIONS of others.  

Have a day!


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

espola said:


> What triggered that rant?


I can't remember now!


----------



## watfly (Aug 21, 2020)

More evidence that kids likely aren't super spreaders.









						Limited Secondary Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Child Care Programs ..
					

This report describes investigations of any reported COVID-19 case in a child or adult present at child care programs and mitigation efforts in Rhode Island during June 1–July 31, 2020.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## dad4 (Aug 21, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Spin it how you’d like, but it really isn’t preventable.  Curbable likely, but not preventable.  If it was preventable, we would not have any deaths from the seasonal flu.
> 
> I’m more focused on getting people back to work and some semblance of normalcy for my kids.  I realize that doesn’t affect you but it does MILLIONS of others.
> 
> Have a day!


Why not preventable?  CO and NM are doing much better than AZ and TX.  SD and SJ are doing better than OC and LA.  Germany handled this better than France or Italy.

This isn't just fate.  Our actions matter.  Right now, by our actions, we are collectively choosing whether we end up with 200,000 deaths or 400,000 deaths.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 21, 2020)

watfly said:


> More evidence that kids likely aren't super spreaders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Median age 5 years.  More evidence that elementary age kids, with precautions, are not major spreaders.

Still good news.  Just dont use to justify your teenager's pool party.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Again, bureaucrats will mumble and  stumble their way to inaction, paralyzed by analysis and listening to ridiculous requests from unions that demonstrate their complete lack of interest in becoming part of the solution.  Have fun in California getting anything done until post election and beyond.


Ah, who started the blame game??  "bureaucrats, unions, and post election."  Gee, I wonder who you're blaming?  So if you're going to go down the blame game route, grow a pair, and blame the person ultimately responsible. Sounds like you are pumping your fist in anger and wasting energy.  



happy9 said:


> Not having balls to call someone out has nothing to do with anything and again gets nothing done.  Sounds like you are comfortable with bureaucracy.  In my house (to use your comparison, which is still silly by the way), we get stuff done - wife, kids, dog, leopard geckos, the whole shebang.  No reason to waste time bitching and moaning about how the bad actors are keeping us from doing what we need to do.


This is exactly why I am calling you a pussy.  You can't give a straight answer to a straight question.  You dodge and weave ONLY so you don't have to OWN it and blame the person that needs to be blamed.  You have to bring in your dogs, geckos, and kids to dodge a question?  Grow a pair brother, grow a pair.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Just take a cruise thru Venice, Downtown, Sherman Oaks and check out the condition the city is in, it is scary


I'm assuming you're referring to the homeless issue.  The homeless issue has been around forever, especially in the big cities.  Are there more homeless in Southern California now than ever before?  Yes.  

Kicker, I have lunch about once a week at the Fisherman's Outlet on 5th and Central, a hard core homeless area.  I grew up in Boyle Heights, walking distance to Downtown (I walked to a couple Laker's parades in the 80's).  My dad attended AA meetings in skid row and I went to a few Al-Anon meetings there in the late 70's.  I used to accompany my dad all over downtown to the garment district, jewelry district, and electronics district.  I've seen homeless my entire life.  The homeless that I see Downtown now is about triple what I remember seeing back in the 70's-90's.

But ask me if I spend one mili-second losing sleep over the homeless issue?  The honest answer is I don't.  I may be more immune than others, but it doesn't phase me one bit.  Now, when I see it, it's not aesthetically pleasing, but as soon as I'm passed it, it is completely gone from my mind.  I would bet the house that that is the way it is for everybody on this forum.  None of us stay awake at night thinking, god that was a great goal my little Suzy scored, but man, that homeless problem has me worried.     

So when people talk about the homeless, do they really give a shit about it, or is it just politics?  Do we just point it out to talk smack about the opposing party or not?  I think you know my answer.


----------



## watfly (Aug 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Median age 5 years.  More evidence that elementary age kids, with precautions, are not major spreaders.
> 
> Still good news.  Just dont use to justify your teenager's pool  beach party.


Fixed it for you...don't have a pool.


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Ah, who started the blame game??  "bureaucrats, unions, and post election."  Gee, I wonder who you're blaming?  So if you're going to go down the blame game route, grow a pair, and blame the person ultimately responsible. Sounds like you are pumping your fist in anger and wasting energy.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I am calling you a pussy.  You can't give a straight answer to a straight question.  You dodge and weave ONLY so you don't have to OWN it and blame the person that needs to be blamed.  You have to bring in your dogs, geckos, and kids to dodge a question?  Grow a pair brother, grow a pair.


Who is it that you hate specifically?  And who is it that you blame specifically? What am I supposed to own? You should have an understanding by now where my position lies.  If your idea of getting things done means more divisive rhetoric between factions, then so be it. 

I don't know why body parts are even part of this discussion but if it makes you feel like you have a bigger pair of bolas, then so be it, you are entitled to that feeling.   Me blaming someone else doesn't make me feel better - do something about it - go vote, set up a petition, talk to the school district, volunteer.

And it's one dog, but two geckos.  Not multiple dogs.


----------



## Copa9 (Aug 21, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> LOL... Try to find a Uhaul in SoCal right now.  Think many people are taking your suggestion.


What a great idea, move to Texas.  There are certainly affordable homes there. The more that move the better.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to the homeless issue.  The homeless issue has been around forever, especially in the big cities.  Are there more homeless in Southern California now than ever before?  Yes.
> 
> Kicker, I have lunch about once a week at the Fisherman's Outlet on 5th and Central, a hard core homeless area.  I grew up in* Boyle Heights, *walking distance to Downtown (I walked to a couple Laker's parades in the 80's).  My dad attended AA meetings in skid row and I went to a few Al-Anon meetings there in the late 70's.  I used to accompany my dad all over downtown to the garment district, jewelry district, and electronics district.  I've seen homeless my entire life.  The homeless that I see Downtown now is about triple what I remember seeing back in the 70's-90's.
> 
> ...


Bro, my bro Bruno got his first start at school in Boyle Heights.  I also walked the streets down there trying to help get kids free vaccines.  I door knocked for two days.  I used to live up the 60 in Montebello.  Great peeps bro


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

happy9 said:


> Me blaming someone else doesn't make me feel better


Then why did you do it?


----------



## Copa9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to the homeless issue.  The homeless issue has been around forever, especially in the big cities.  Are there more homeless in Southern California now than ever before?  Yes.
> 
> Kicker, I have lunch about once a week at the Fisherman's Outlet on 5th and Central, a hard core homeless area.  I grew up in Boyle Heights, walking distance to Downtown (I walked to a couple Laker's parades in the 80's).  My dad attended AA meetings in skid row and I went to a few Al-Anon meetings there in the late 70's.  I used to accompany my dad all over downtown to the garment district, jewelry district, and electronics district.  I've seen homeless my entire life.  The homeless that I see Downtown now is about triple what I remember seeing back in the 70's-90's.
> 
> ...





tjinaz said:


> Said it before and Ill say it again.....
> 
> If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


That's right, they are protected. They are protected by glass, constant wiping down and sanitizing their area, never touching credit cards, one person at a time. CDC just reported that children from birth to 22 have a higher viral load than adults even when they are asymptomatic or symptomatic with covid.   Teachers in an enclosed room with many children who don't keep the masks on for six hours, who don't use proper sanitation when using the bathroom, when many rooms don't even have sinks, when the two windows in the classroom don't even open, when you keep your doors shut because there could be a shooter and you want to protect your students, when kids need help or hug because they are overwhelmed, you will see teachers getting sick, some dying, maybe many. Over 50% of the teachers in California are over 50.  It takes a minimum of five years of college before you can start teaching. They can not be replaced over night.  During a normal school year, districts frequently have a tough time even getting the minimum number of subs for those who are out sick. Then what happens? We used to double up if they couldn't find a sub, sometimes sending 7-8 students to several teachers until a sub could be found.  My room was so crowded you could barely walk around it.  When elementary schools went 20-1, (this no longer exists) they created smaller classrooms so when we were suddenly back to 32 students, guess what, a very crowed room.  Where do you put students if you want to keep the rooms to 15?  There just isn't the space.  Oh, okay, outside you say, yep, in 100+ temperatures, Santa Ana winds, blowing work every which way, or what about those damp mornings?  That is one way to keep kids healthy.  I suspect those grumbling about keeping kids home until we get a vaccine, want their freedom, don't want to bother helping their kids all day.  Some will say I have to go back to work, okay, then what do you do during the summer and breaks?  Be creative, have a bubble, figure it out among close friends if it is so easy to protect.  This isn't forever, unless a child dies or a teacher dies, then it is forever. Teachers are absolutely hating this, many in tears, they want to be back in the classroom probably more than the students.  We will get through this.  I never imagined there would be so many weak minded, selfish, people in the US.  Every teacher I know would be willing to die to protect your children from a shooter and some have, many teachers constantly review what they would do if a shooter entered their school or room, yet parents can't handle the current situation to protect everyone.  Say what you want, this is an incredibly sad and disappointing time for teachers for many reasons.  We will be back in the classroom, children will adjust, they will be okay.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

You must have tough skin to be from California.   I travelled all over the country and the moment I mention I am from California, all the jokes begin.  It’s funny because they laugh at our state but love to come for vacation.    If you don’t like this state, now is the time to move.  Personally, I can’t find too many places better than California.  Colorado is a strong 2nd but the winters can be rough.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Why not preventable?  CO and NM are doing much better than AZ and TX.  SD and SJ are doing better than OC and LA.  Germany handled this better than France or Italy.
> 
> This isn't just fate.  Our actions matter.  Right now, by our actions, we are collectively choosing whether we end up with 200,000 deaths or 400,000 deaths.


Because we can’t even prevent the common flu or H1N1 from circulation and claiming lives, how can we prevent Covid from doing the same.  

What you are referring to is minimizing, not preventing.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to the homeless issue.  The homeless issue has been around forever, especially in the big cities.  Are there more homeless in Southern California now than ever before?  Yes.
> 
> Kicker, I have lunch about once a week at the Fisherman's Outlet on 5th and Central, a hard core homeless area.  I grew up in Boyle Heights, walking distance to Downtown (I walked to a couple Laker's parades in the 80's).  My dad attended AA meetings in skid row and I went to a few Al-Anon meetings there in the late 70's.  I used to accompany my dad all over downtown to the garment district, jewelry district, and electronics district.  I've seen homeless my entire life.  The homeless that I see Downtown now is about triple what I remember seeing back in the 70's-90's.
> 
> ...


I eat there once a month......the homeless population has increased double digits each year for the past 5 years.  It is our governors policies that have turned a blind eye to the impact on the community.  So when people say California has become a dumpster fire, this is just ONE part of the reason.


----------



## happy9 (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Then why did you do it?


Man, this circle is long.  There is plenty of blame to go around.  Read my entire post with context and stop cherry picking.  This entire conversation stems around the fact that Private Schools and charter schools are not waiting on anyone to get things done.  Outside of testing, they are busting their asses to educate kids in a safe and efficient environment. Some with deeper pockets will incorporate testing in spite of bumbling bureaucratic idiots. Your accusations of being a cat and not having large pelotas is confusing and not providing any type of intellectual value to this discussion.

And yes, I squarely place the blame on bureaucracy on both sides of the aisle for the temperature of our cities, counties, state, and country.  Guess what, you (and I) have choices.  Many will turn their backs, for now, on their elected and non elected officials and act with their wallets.  Parents will pull their kids out of public schools and focus on getting access to private/charter schools.  If that doesn't work, their are plenty of great online programs that look good and come highly regarded.  It's happening all over the country. 

Kids want to go to school and play sports.  It can be done in a responsible way - it's being done right now in places all over the country. Some have screwed it up, most haven't. 

sincerely,
Juan Pelota.


----------



## Justafan (Aug 21, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> I eat there once a month......the homeless population has increased double digits each year for the past 5 years.  It is our governors policies that have turned a blind eye to the impact on the community.  So when people say California has become a dumpster fire, this is just ONE part of the reason.


I’m not up to speed on homeless policies or causes, so I’m not about to pretend to know. And you’re right, it has increased, especially in the last 10ish years imo.

And yes, it is aesthetically displeasing, and people can call us on it, that’s fair game.  I just question the extent it actually bothers people who say they are bothered by it.  That’s my only point.

Because when I go to New York, I expect to see homeless, I expect the subway to smell a certain way, I expect traffic, I expect F’ bombs from taxi drivers, and it doesn’t bother me one bit.

BTW, I’ve been going to Fishemans Outlet since the 70’s.  Their clam chowder is the standard by which I judge all others.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 21, 2020)

Justafan said:


> I’m not up to speed on homeless policies or causes, so I’m not about to pretend to know. And you’re right, it has increased, especially in the last 10ish years imo.
> 
> And yes, it is aesthetically displeasing, and people can call us on it, that’s fair game.  I just question the extent it actually bothers people who say they are bothered by it.  That’s my only point.
> 
> ...


It has moved beyond aesthetics......I can take some pictures from my commute if you’d like.


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

watfly said:


> I may be getting old, but I remember back in the day when we used to say "flatten the curve" and we worried about people dying in hospital hallways because doctors had to decide who lived and died since we weren't going to have enough ventilators.  Now the young bucks these days say "we need to vaccinate everyone!" and they have to wait for lab results from comprehensive peer reviewed studies instead of actual real world results, which us old timers thought were sufficient.  I miss the good ole days.


they want to drag this thing on as long as they can .


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Said it before and Ill say it again.....
> 
> If they can protect a cashier in a supermarket checkout line that sees hundreds of random people everyday within a 6ft radius and they are OK ... how can they not protect teachers seeing the exact same smaller number of low risk kids?  I smell politics in this one.  Or.. maybe when the teachers explain again how important they are and why they need raises we give that money to the true heros in the grocery store.


boom! and teachers lost all support from me when their union demanded a political check list before they went back to work. But if i can add to your list, truckers, doctors, nurses, lab techs, the people that actually give the tests at locations, cops and fire fighters.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> boom! and teachers lost all support from me when their union demanded a political check list before they went back to work. But if i can add to your list, truckers, doctors, nurses, lab techs, the people that actually give the tests at locations, cops and fire fighters.


Let's not forget Life Guards.  I watch a stud LG save 8 kids yesterday.  A certain break has rip tides every time sets roll in.  Hotels=tourist=I have no clue on riptides.  Kids from NJ and and Ohio in Cali for vaca.  I sat with my wife and predicted two of the kids who would need to be saved.  I almost wanted to stop them before they went out with their boogie board and no fins.  You see what happens is the kid loses his boogie board and now he's stuck out in the ocean in a ripe tide.  He panics because he swims straight in and he goes nowhere.  He yells for help and Mr Stud Life Guard is there to save another life.  Please ad AC Tech Guy as well.  He's on OT helping folks stay cool


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Just NYC is a very small sample size and a dubious one at that.  NYC is the very worst environment for this and is atypical.  There have to be over 500,000 cashiers of various types throughout the country and I don't see them wanting to close the stores as they are all sick.


if it was happening they would have reported it. That is great fuel for fear mongoring


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Here's the difference dumbass.  When patrons come into a grocery store they are masked up, they move around and don't stay in one place for more than 2-3 minutes, and certainly not directly in front of a grocery store worker.  So even if they are covid positive, the likelihood they will transmit to someone else is low.  In a classroom, you'll have 30 students confined in a classroom for 50 minutes, probably all facing in one direction.  And this will happen 6 times a day, 5 days a week.
> 
> Here, re-read this article to freshen up.  https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
> 
> ...


Schools can have the  kids wear a  mask and the teacher wear a mask.  Kids can have shields around their desk, wash their hands and maintain social distance. There are many professions wear masks all day, hospital workers do it for 12 hours  and people travel in airplanes cross country right next to strangers and there is no spike.  If you want to do it you will find a way if you don't you will find excuses.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> if it was happening they would have reported it. That is great fuel for fear mongoring


They have reported it.  I've read dozens of reports that talk about essential workers and working class neighborhoods being at higher risk for covid.

The working class side of Santa Clara County has about 4-5 times the covid infection rate of the tech side.   1.5 percent versus about 0.35 percent, depending on zip code.

If you read MSM these days, it's pretty hard to miss.


----------



## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

dad4 said:


> They have reported it.  I've read dozens of reports that talk about essential workers and working class neighborhoods being at higher risk for covid.
> 
> The working class side of Santa Clara County has about 4-5 times the covid infection rate of the tech side.   1.5 percent versus about 0.35 percent, depending on zip code.
> 
> If you read MSM these days, it's pretty hard to miss.


Q bro.  If you were told today that your job would end September 7th and all your retirement you worked your ass for is wiped clean, what would you do?


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

being  at risk is not the same as getting it. we are all at risk of it so must like boxing protect yourself at all times. 

im interested in a link if you have one. santa clara has a lot of cases but very few deaths which is great news and what everyone should be concerned with.  this isn't as deadly as we thought.  its contagious and really bad for unhealthy people and the elderly so protect them and the rest of the people go on with life because this isn't going anywhere


----------



## espola (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> being  at risk is not the same as getting it. we are all at risk of it so must like boxing protect yourself at all times.
> 
> im interested in a link if you have one. santa clara has a lot of cases but very few deaths which is great news and what everyone should be concerned with.  this isn't as deadly as we thought.  its contagious and really bad for unhealthy people and the elderly so protect them and the rest of the people go on with life because this isn't going anywhere


Are you getting paid for this bullshit?


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

being  at risk is not the same as getting it. we are all at risk of it so must like boxing protect yourself at all times. 





espola said:


> Are you getting paid for this bullshit?


why are you so angry


----------



## espola (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> being  at risk is not the same as getting it. we are all at risk of it so must like boxing protect yourself at all times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not angry.  Why are you consistently posting dangerous bullshit?  Being paid for it is a rational possibility.


----------



## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

espola said:


> I'm not angry.  Why are you consistently posting dangerous bullshit?  Being paid for it is a rational possibility.


you seem angry.  what did i post that isn't true


----------



## dad4 (Aug 22, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Q bro.  If you were told today that your job would end September 7th and all your retirement you worked your ass for is wiped clean, what would you do?


I'd be lying if I said I knew.  Dont think anyone knows until it hits.  Happened to a lot of families I grew up with.  Mills closed and the pension funds were in company stock.  It all got thrown to PBGC who paid pennies on the dollar.  Now dad is working at the video store and the son is at JuCo 'cause its cheap.

What does that have to do with Vegas running an ongoing super spreader event?


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## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

dad4 said:


> *I'd be lying if I said I knew.  Dont think anyone knows until it hits.*  Happened to a lot of families I grew up with.  Mills closed and the pension funds were in company stock.  It all got thrown to PBGC who paid pennies on the dollar.  Now dad is working at the video store and the son is at JuCo 'cause its cheap.
> 
> What does that have to do with Vegas running an ongoing super spreader event?


Thanks for being honest.


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## Copa9 (Aug 22, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> I eat there once a month......the homeless population has increased double digits each year for the past 5 years.  It is our governors policies that have turned a blind eye to the impact on the community.  So when people say California has become a dumpster fire, this is just ONE part of the reason.


Why would a homeless person stay in a state with freezing weather, extremem heat


Jose has returned said:


> Schools can have the  kids wear a  mask and the teacher wear a mask.  Kids can have shields around their desk, wash their hands and maintain social distance. There are many professions wear masks all day, hospital workers do it for 12 hours  and people travel in airplanes cross country right next to strangers and there is no spike.  If you want to do it you will find a way if you don't you will find excuses.


Sure with no sinks in the rooms and 32 students will keep social distance, and yes keep their masks on when they are picking their noses and they will definitely not be rubbing their eyes and they will keep their masks on properly for six hours.


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Why would a homeless person stay in a state with freezing weather, extremem heat
> 
> Sure with no sinks in the rooms and sure 32 students will keep social distance,


see you found an excuse.... there is hand sanitizer. Hospitals use them more that ever washing in the sink. They will be wearing a mask.


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## Copa9 (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> see you found an excuse.... there is hand sanitizer. Hospitals use them more that ever washing in the sink.


Have you ever spent an entire day or entire week in classroom with 32 students since you are such an expert?  When we are back to normal, please come in and volunteer not just for 2-3 hours, but the entire week.


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## espola (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> you seem angry.  what did i post that isn't true


" go on with life because this isn't going anywhere"


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## Kicker4Life (Aug 22, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Why would a homeless person stay in a state with freezing weather, extremem heat


Wrong lane....


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## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> see you found an excuse.... there is hand sanitizer. Hospitals use them more that ever washing in the sink. They will be wearing a mask.


I just dont see a willingness to try and make it work.  No one is expecting the teachers to teach the old way.  AM/PM has plastic shields now and x marks the spot everywhere.  Even the Heartbreakers 3 v 3 has x spots.  This is 100% about something else and their will be heavy consequence for a poor choice.  Even my GOP friends in teaching find themselves in a tough spot and can;t talk.  I understand.  I have a friend who has 7 more years and then he is set forever.  90% pay until he dies.  So what does one do in that situation?  He shuts the hell up and follows orders.  He goes to bed knowing the truth but the truth can;t set him free.  He's trapped because of the almighty dollar.  Held hostage.  Eagle time very soon!!!!


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

espola said:


> " go on with life because this isn't going anywhere"


oh ok. i mean  like almost every virus it doesn't go away.  It can get under control but it will always be with us.  All the childhood diseases that most of us were vaccinated for are still around.  It took years for some of the vaccines but they never shut schools down, they took precautions


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 22, 2020)

dad4 said:


> They have reported it.  I've read dozens of reports that talk about essential workers and working class neighborhoods being at higher risk for covid.


There's little doubt that working-class neighborhoods are always at higher risk for catching a virus - higher population density leading to more frequent interactions with a higher number of people. The difference between those neighborhoods and those where many tech workers live is amplified now with many (most?, almost all?) tech workers WFH - can't do that as a cashier. I'd also guess tech workers have their groceries, etc. delivered at a higher rate further lowering their interactions and risk. I am also curious if there is a difference in the level of compliance with social distancing. It is certainly more effort to comply in more densely populated areas.


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> boom! and teachers lost all support from me when their union demanded a political check list before they went back to work. But if i can add to your list, truckers, doctors, nurses, lab techs, the people that actually give the tests at locations, cops and fire fighters.


Did you miss the posts by me and Copa9 shredding Tjinaz to pieces on the difference between a classroom and a grocery store??



Jose has returned said:


> Schools can have the  kids wear a  mask and the teacher wear a mask.  Kids can have shields around their desk, wash their hands and maintain social distance. There are many professions wear masks all day, hospital workers do it for 12 hours  and people travel in airplanes cross country right next to strangers and there is no spike.  If you want to do it you will find a way if you don't you will find excuses.


What's the excuse for not getting schools point of care testing??  It's not that hard and it will cost pennies on the dollar compared to what we have already spent. So what's the excuse? We've known the importance of testing since March!  Look at all the professional leagues thriving.  

C'mon tough guy, what is the excuse for the lack of testing?  I'm dying to hear how you will dodge and weave your way out of this one.  And please spare me the union bull shit and their demands, that fake news has been shredded to pieces also.  

Again, here it is straight from the horses mouth.  



			LAUSD superintendent believes COVID-19 testing, contact tracing are keys to reopening schools


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Did you miss the posts by me and Copa9 shredding Tjinaz to pieces on the difference between a classroom and a grocery store??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


gee whiz another angry person. Who is the testing for? That is a School superintendent that doesn't listen to science.   Hospital nurses, doctors,  cops or firefighters don't get tested everyday it isn't mandatory or necessary. If you want to get tested go get tested. If you feel sick you stay home and should get tested.  if you have wear/worn your mask, socially distanced and washed your hand regularly you will be good.  Either those things work or they  don't.  I tend to think they do.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Have you ever spent an entire day or entire week in classroom with 32 students since you are such an expert?  When we are back to normal, please come in and volunteer not just for 2-3 hours, but the entire week.


What does that have to do with teachers demanding free healthcare for illegal invaders?


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What does that have to do with teachers demanding free healthcare for illegal invaders?


Still hanging your argument on two sentences from a 10 page document.  Talk about fake news.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Still hanging your argument on two sentences from a 10 page document.  Talk about fake news.


I didn’t read it, is what I posted untrue?


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> gee whiz another angry person. Who is the testing for? That is a School superintendent that doesn't listen to science.   Hospital nurses, doctors,  cops or firefighters don't get tested everyday it isn't mandatory or necessary. If you want to get tested go get tested. If you feel sick you stay home and should get tested.  if you have wear/worn your mask, socially distanced and washed your hand regularly you will be good.  Either those things work or they  don't.  I tend to think they do.


No brother, you're angry b/c your kids are at home.  

"Who is the testing for?"  Gee whiz, let's see, the White House tests everybody before they come in, the military tests everybody almost everyday, the professional sports leagues test almost everyday (have you not watched Hard Knocks), Dana White tests his UFC fighters and all personnel everyday for 2 weeks prior to fight night (notice how they have different referees every week), so I'm not sure who the testing is for, but a wild guess is that testing is for EVERYBODY'S safety.

"That is a school superintendent that doesn't listen to science."  Did you pull that one out of your ass?  Well, why don't know make him look like a fool and call his bluff.  If you provide the testing and they still won't go back, I'll join you in calling them phony cowards.


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I didn’t read it, is what I posted untrue?


Yes


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Yes


My bad.


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> gee whiz another angry person. Who is the testing for? That is a School superintendent that doesn't listen to science.   Hospital nurses, doctors,  cops or firefighters don't get tested everyday it isn't mandatory or necessary. If you want to get tested go get tested. If you feel sick you stay home and should get tested.  if you have wear/worn your mask, socially distanced and washed your hand regularly you will be good.  Either those things work or they  don't.  I tend to think they do.


And notice how you didn't answer the question.  Again, what's you excuse for the lack of testing???


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My bad.


Finally growing some huevos.  Or was that a sarcastic "my bad." So you pick, huevos OR no huevos?


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> And notice how you didn't answer the question.  Again, what's you excuse for the lack of testing???


uh, i did.  Hospital nurses, doctors, cops or firefighters don't get tested everyday it isn't mandatory or necessary....the it isn't necessary or mandatory part answers the question.
 If those professions that are up close don't need it then people( kids) that aren't don't either.  If a kid gets it send them home for 10 days they will recover.  If your kid is not healthy or you are scared do the distance learning.

 Those other entities have endless resources for a really small group of people. 

    I'm angry because they need to be in school not because they are home.  But in school is better for them

No 0-17 year olds haven't died in ca. (the outlier happened this week and they won't give details)  Stop panicking.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Finally growing some huevos.  Or was that a sarcastic "my bad." So you pick, huevos OR no huevos?


You are just like my wife, wants to argue about anything.


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## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You are just like my wife, wants to argue about anything.


My wife is always right so i stopped arguing with her....My son too.  Me and my DD are two peas and a pod   At least someone on the planet understands me.


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## Justafan (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> uh, i did.  Hospital nurses, doctors, cops or firefighters don't get tested everyday it isn't mandatory or necessary....the it isn't necessary or mandatory part answers the question.
> If those professions that are up close don't need it then people( kids) that aren't don't either.  If a kid gets it send them home for 10 days they will recover.  If your kid is not healthy or you are scared do the distance learning.
> 
> Those other entities have endless resources for a really small group of people.
> ...


Still don’t have enough huevos to answer the question ha? Cops and firefighters are “up close” like teachers? Re-read my ass whoopin post on a grocery store clerk v. teacher. 

Nurses and doctors do get tested dumbass and have more access to testing than anybody.

And your angry because your kids are not at school BUT ARE HOME INSTEAD.  Same thing brother.

Other entities with endless resources. That’s the point dumbass, aren’t our kids important enough to spend a few billion dollars and get them back in the classroom? I want that, we all want that! We’ve spent close to 10 trillion dollars and we can’t spend a few billion for our kids?

When this is all said and done, we will look back and this will be the absolute dumbest thing we didn’t do.  Mark my words.


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Still don’t have enough huevos to answer the question ha? Cops and firefighters are “up close” like teachers? Re-read my ass whoopin post on a grocery store clerk v. teacher.
> 
> Nurses and doctors do get tested dumbass and have more access to testing than anybody.
> 
> ...


you got issues dude. good luck


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Still don’t have enough huevos to answer the question ha? Cops and firefighters are “up close” like teachers? Re-read my ass whoopin post on a grocery store clerk v. teacher.
> 
> Nurses and doctors do get tested dumbass and have more access to testing than anybody.
> 
> ...


Teachers are not on nearly the same level as firefighters or the he popo.
Come on man.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> you got issues dude. good luck


Dude?
Way to emotional for that.
Pre-op maybe.
Hormones all jacked up.
If I was as smart as she thinks she is I would be happier that a pig in shit.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 22, 2020)

My wife is a teacher.  She wants to go back but she also knows that many of her peers are at high risk.  By the way, you all should chill on bashing on teachers.  I am sure most of you had a tough time teaching your kids back in the Spring.  It's one of the toughest jobs and it just got tougher trying to teach via zoom and keep kids focused.


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## Jose has returned (Aug 22, 2020)

numbers from the OC register Aug. 22 2020

The county report showed there are 110 patients in ICUs as of Saturday, the lowest level since late May. Death rate continues to drop

The county’s breakdown of deaths by age is as follows:




85+: 31% (276)
75-84: 22% (197)
65-74: 20% (181)
55-64: 13% (125)
45-54: 9% (74)
35-44: 3% (26)
25-34: 1.3% (13)
18-24: <1% (3)
0-17: <1% (1)


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## Ellejustus (Aug 22, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> My wife is a teacher.  She wants to go back but she also knows that many of her peers are at high risk.  By the way, you all should chill on bashing on teachers.  I am sure most of you had a tough time teaching your kids back in the Spring.  It's one of the toughest jobs and it just got tougher trying to teach via zoom and keep kids focused.


Bro, I was going to be a teacher and a coach in high school.  I have many really good friends in education.  My good friend is the boss of all the principles.  His boss is the Super boss.  He told me that's one of the big issues.  Most teachers are at high risk.  He wants the healthy teachers to teach the healthy kids in person and make sure they have sports.  The teachers at risk will do the online courses with kids who want to do online and are at high risk as well.  This is a great way to teach.  I do agree 100% that teachers are in really bad shape.  I had to debate some folks back in early 90s that were higher ups and they kept telling me PE is a waste of money on the budget and when money is tight, cut PE.  Well, now we have teachers who have not lived a healthy life and now when we need them, they can;t take risk like so many others have to to put food on the table.  If you dont have money, you will go out and find some like this find couple did.  People will get theor asses kicked in just because and maybe killed so someone esle can eat.  It's just getting started.  









						Ireland Baldwin Shares Photos of Her Bruised Face After Being 'Attacked' and Robbed in Parking Lot
					

"Luckily I had witnesses and got assisted really quickly," Ireland Baldwin said




					www.yahoo.com
				




"Yesterday in the late afternoon, I was attacked by a woman who was high out of her mind on drugs and desperate for cash. She decked me in my face in a parking lot and took my belongings and jumped in a getaway car while her husband took off. All was sorted with the police and she was arrested. Luckily I had witnesses and got assisted really quickly. The cops told me this is happening frequently because people are desperate for money right now due to Coronavirus and people being out of work. There is a lot of theft and muggings going down."  IB-


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Aug 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Wow, that was swift and forceful.  Let's see if Outlaw learns his lesson and comes back better for it.  I got suspended last year for false advertising.  Dom, if the Outlaw messes up again, whats the next level?  Lifetime ban?


Learns his lesson?  LMAO!


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## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> numbers from the OC register Aug. 22 2020
> 
> The county report showed there are 110 patients in ICUs as of Saturday, the lowest level since late May. Death rate continues to drop
> 
> ...


I don’t think death rate has dropped that much over the past 2 months.   It’s been hovering between 10 to 12 daily death rate.   I do wish they would show the age group.   Most of them are over 65.


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