# Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?



## Paul Spacey (Sep 24, 2018)

I noticed there are a number of threads regarding refs and parental/coach behavior recently. Here's another.

Below is a link to a video clip of a recent game I just saw online. Yes, the ref seems incompetent based on this short clip and the craziness of it just reminded me of what I’ve seen every weekend since the fall season kicked off (I’ve watched or coached around 20 games so far).

https://www.facebook.com/groups/socalsoccer/permalink/1129930933842712/

It’s nothing to do with sour grapes or moaning because my team or club lost a game (conversely, you’ll see from our CSL record that we are winning most of our games so far and I think that’s important to point out because often ref complaints come about when people are annoyed about a loss), it’s about addressing an issue which is a problem and feels like it is getting worse every season. 

That could be my personal perspective but based on comments I read and hear regularly from other coaches and parents (and based on games I watch every weekend), it does seem to be the case that refereeing standards (and attitudes, importantly) are certainly not improving, even if at best they are not regressing. 

This isn’t intended to be ref-bashing by the way; I’ve been a ref myself for a long time and try to support them as best I can. I just feel it’s reached a point where I’m struggling to now support the majority of the referees I see on a weekly basis (it’s not all refs but it is many of them unfortunately) because they are having issues with two things which directly influence how games progress and develop (and this affects the safety of players):

1. The laws of the game and knowing how to interpret them correctly.

2. Attitude and communication with players and coaches. There is a huge ‘us vs them’ issue (perhaps on both sides) and refs are increasingly rude and dismissive, refusing to communicate at all with either players or coaches.

The second point might be similar to how people sometimes explain police arrogance and brutality; police have to deal with a lot of sh*t and referees are in a similar position. Often, their decisions are questioned even when correct and so there is naturally probably an element of frustration and lack of patience on many referees’ parts. However, I personally don’t feel this has to be a case of “I know better than you so don’t dare question me” which is how I see and hear many refs reacting to any question, regardless of how the question is voiced. 

At the risk of sounding arrogant, based on the level I officiated both in the UK and here in SoCal, invariably the opposite is true when I ask a question; I usually already know the point of law but I think it is fair to give refs a chance to briefly explain what they saw. Even better, I hope and pray they will do what I did plenty of times as a ref…admit they made a mistake! It’s ok, we all make mistakes. When you make one and cannot admit it, regardless of the situation (refereeing, life, whatever), invariably your refusal to admit an error makes a situation worse. If referee courses and information encouraged budding refs to be honest and admit errors, I can promise from experience that referees’ lives would be easier.

CSL have introduced a center referee rating system that I’m told will be shared with ref assignors so this might help them assign more games to the more competent refs. With the ref shortage though (there is still a shortage, right?), they can probably only do so much on this front. Does SCDSL have anything similar? I saw Michelle's email saying that they deal with ref issues swiftly but does anyone know exactly what they do?

Ideas and thoughts anyone? I’m always interested to hear what people’s views are on topics like this and I know this board has a lot of very informed parents and club officials, as well as many respected and knowledgeable referees.

I think it's fair to say that everyone contributes towards issues getting out of hand; coaches, parents and referees (even players sometimes). If we can come up with any measures or ideas to make the game experience better for our kids, we should put ego's aside and make it happen.


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## myself (Sep 24, 2018)

Parents are the big driver of animosity towards refs, but most parents don't understand the laws of the game and just shout at random. The best thing most parents can do is volunteer as a ref at the rec level, learn the laws of the game, how difficult it can be to make the correct call, and how it feels to be harassed by parents.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 24, 2018)

myself said:


> Parents are the big driver of animosity towards refs, but most parents don't understand the laws of the game and just shout at random. The best thing most parents can do is volunteer as a ref at the rec level, learn the laws of the game, how difficult it can be to make the correct call, and how it feels to be harassed by parents.


I agree. Parental education and involvement would make a massive difference. 

That doesn’t address the refs’ attitudes but it’s a  good suggestion for an improvement to the situation.


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## Sheriff Joe (Sep 24, 2018)

myself said:


> Parents are the big driver of animosity towards refs, but most parents don't understand the laws of the game and just shout at random. The best thing most parents can do is volunteer as a ref at the rec level, learn the laws of the game, how difficult it can be to make the correct call, and how it feels to be harassed by parents.


Yes, parents should shut up and referees should speak English, at least know how to say "Where are your cards?" They did know how to ask for their payment, they pointed to the game sheet with the dollar amount on it.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 24, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> If referee courses and information encouraged budding refs to be honest and admit errors, I can promise from experience that referees’ lives would be easier.


This is a good idea.  Additionally, ref training could include training on communication and conflict resolution.  

The single most effective tool to avoid conflict in all areas of life is to establish high quality communication first.  By "high quality," I mean that it must be clear, it must be understandable, and it must be "real."  Every good relationship is founded on common ground first.  This is easily and quickly done and I've seen it employed by the better refs.  

It involves saying "Hello" to the parents on the sidelines and introducing yourself to the coaches.  It involves things like, "How are you all doing today?"  The refs that politely engage in some pre-game banter with the coaches and parents immediately establish a connection where it makes it harder to scream at them later.  I've even seen some refs who begin each game by telling the coaches and players, "I'm going to make as many mistakes as you do today, so let's all promise we'll do our very best at our jobs, and we'll all have a great game."  

Obviously, some people are gonna be abusive a-holes no matter what, but a little bit of this goes a long way.


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## pique2002 (Sep 24, 2018)

I do feel in youth soccer besides enforcing Laws of the Game, player safety should always come first, everything else should be secondary. If Scdsl feels Discovery league is a privilege to join, please make sure they have the highest standard of referees available by paying a bit higher wages to these  qualified referees. They should be able to select a wide range of referee pools if they were willing to do the work and give them extra incentives to be out there. Random monitoring of refereeing and sideline hehavior should give Scdsl an idea what triggers those events. Parking revenue alone should cover the extra wages many times over by forcing all games plays there instead of sticking to parents again with the heat, driving and parking fees.

As far as the mis-behaving sidelines, coaches and/or players, Scdsl already seem to have rules and regulations in place. Available Security personnel for the safety of the referee if deems necessary after heated games.

One sided refereeing with players injury with limited recourse or after facts could trigger mis-hehaving sidelines in real time. What would Scdsl higher ups behaves if their offspring were hurt due to repeated refereeing neglicence or incompetence? 

Or on less serious but real life situation that referee basically deciding a tight game with less than obvious inflection, sideline misbehaving could be expected unless referee explain clearly what was his/her decision. Perhaps even a peer review at later date could determine referee’s judgement or ranking to make sure referee are hehaving properly as well, just like parents, coaches and players. Referees do make mistakes, some honest, some not so much, side line behaviors might be the reflection of that. 

Not commenting on last weekend games, just from past experiences.


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## jpeter (Sep 24, 2018)

The most difficult role in officiating: assisting a poor referee
https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/75956/the-most-difficult-role-in-officiating-assisting.html

Yes in favor of some sort of rating system like you mentioned
"CSL have introduced a center referee rating system that I’m told will be shared with ref assignors so this might help them assign more games to the more competent refs" 

When  refereeing becomes a paid service, the consumers have expectations and they tend to expect a certain level of quality.   

One of the big complaints I've heard is the perceived lack of accountability, for parents & paying customers they don't have any visibility on how refs are assigned, reviewed or rated at all basically. 

Might not work for officiating but giving the  Uber model where  both driver's and customers are  rated and you can choose your services or not based on those numbers something like that for the educated customer might work but of course they would have to be competent in the laws first, passing a quiz might knock out half the intial bunch but at least that would force them to learn before a rating was accepted. 

I would be willing to pay more or less depending on the ratings, heck I would even leave a tip for a job well done.


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## Grace T. (Sep 24, 2018)

Having been through the USSF and AYSO refs systems now, as a new referee I got to say that the AYSO system is just so much supportive.  It's harder to get even your AYSO regional license than it is your level 8 club.  AYSO provides (because it can force the parents) ARs even for U10 games (whereas every USSF non-cup game I've seen has only the CR).    AYSO provides new referees with mentors to help them advance up in the ranks.  And I've found the AYSO refs to be more supportive of me in my learning process.  My first year I got discouraged being a USSF ref so I'm liking being able to cut my teeth on some AYSO games, including some Extras ones.  Learning a lot.  It's neat just hanging out at the AYSO tent and learning from the experienced old timers.

The downside of USSF providing mentoring, additional training, and ARS at lower levels is that it would raise the cost of club soccer even more (since unlike AYSO they can't force people).  But here's where some more cooperation between the 2 organizations could help (many AYSO senior refs, for example, ref high school games during the week).  Part of the problem with the referee shortage and retention problems isn't just the parents misbehavior....it's that there isn't sufficient intervention to bring along new referees.  The education in some regions is lacking (I'm specifically thinking of the rollout last year of the build out line and why so many referees didn't understand it and called it differently....I'm still seeing some confusion for both USSF and AYSO but AYSO has a lot of mechanisms to make sure the refs are calling it correctly as the weeks go on).  AYSO's big problem is retention...as kids with soccer experience drop out or move up to club, they lose the parent expertise too so they sometimes struggle to put experienced CRs into the mix.

The other thing CalSouth is struggling with is the sharp divisions between the "let them play" school of referees.  Some refs call it tightly, some refs have an expansive definition of what is trifling, and CalSouth hasn't really provided a whole lot of guidance, and that's become a problem.


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## Surfref (Sep 24, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I noticed there are a number of threads regarding refs and parental/coach behavior recently. Here's another.
> 
> Below is a link to a video clip of a recent game I just saw online. Yes, the ref seems incompetent based on this short clip and the craziness of it just reminded me of what I’ve seen every weekend since the fall season kicked off (I’ve watched or coached around 20 games so far).
> 
> ...


Humor me on this.  To start out with, referees are taught how to communication with the coaches and players, and to not talk to the spectators.  The majority of coaches are not a-holes to referees, but there are  a-hole coaches out there that yell at the referee just to see if they can influence or get the Referee rattled.  I know several coaches very well that still yell at me until I ask them to stop then they stop.

I have not made it a secret that I have not been happy with a few of my ARs recently.  Sorry accidentally hit post and edit will not give me enough time to finish typing so this will continue in the next post.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 24, 2018)

SD County Association has a referee ranking system and auto-assignments, but I honestly don't know how often assessors are out there. I would rather be assessed and given feedback from an assessor than have rankings solely decided by team official feedback. I'd gladly take less or more pay based upon my performance, and be assigned games that a competent assignor and assessor feel I capable of doing. I really don't care about the paltry money. I'd be happy to join other referees to put $10 per game into a pot that goes to the sidelines we vote the best.

I agree with Grace above and I felt that the AYSO Regional (now called something else) referee training is better than what I hear Cal South offers for Grade 8. In the region I occasionally work, there is often a very experienced referee at the field to mentor new referees. I got my grade 8 because an AYSO Intermediate referee automatically qualifies as Grade 8, so I didn't take the class, but I have heard from those that have.

I'm certainty not the best referee, and I'm definitely not the worst. Fall competitive league is very emotionally draining. I have a lot of trouble disregarding some of the sideline comments directed toward me. For the last 2 seasons, at the end of fall league, I pretty much decided to quit competitive referee and just go back to AYSO. The parents usually appreciate me a lot more and the exercise is about the same. The  kids in rec are at least as fun to run with. My ref fees are taxed at the highest rate (40% or more), then deduct gas, and what I have to spend to keep my wife from griping about me being gone for 8 hours a weekend so I'm definitely not in it for the money.

I don't understand what happened to civility in today's society. I can't believe how people feel so entitled. If more rational parents spoke up, the less offensive of the bunch might chill out and the worst offenders might quit, or at least be concentrated into teams that tolerate the behavior, and we could fix that quickly.

I had a game Sunday where a parent was into me from the first whistle. About a minute into the match she used a bad word. The ball went out of play and I told the coach that she was becoming a problem. This is 1.5 minutes in and the coach already was warned. The coach and a few other parents got her to chill out and the coach was good to work with. 

This parent did graciously offer to video my performance for the rest of the game for me. Instead of relaxing and enjoying her daughter play, she video taped a fat old man running up and down the field, and I do run the whole field. Since it is all about me, I should say I had a pretty good game, despite these 05 girls starting to exercise their inner teenager. This all for about $30, which I had to skip lunch and rush to earn after my daughter's game 45 minutes away. I hope she sends the whole video in.  While she would not be any of the following, I welcome constructive comments from competent critics. There are a few things I would have done differently and/or better with hindsight, but referee's don't have hindsight.

Unlike all coaches and spectators, we're accountable for our decisions. Everyone else can have an opinion and nobody can rebut them because their opinion doesn't matter. Everyone has an opinion on the referee and his/her decisions.

One thing that needs to be said is: if a referee is having a bad game, he probably knows it, and yelling only makes it worse. Your coach knows what is going on and if he is a good coach, he will quietly bring something up with the referee. Yes, a few of us are real arrogant arse holes, and they can take the shine off of the most of us that just want to have a fun day and do our best. If you want to get the best out of the referee, no matter how good or bad he/she is, it is best to just shut up and enjoy the game. We're all just doing our best.


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## Surfref (Sep 24, 2018)

I have not been happy with more than a few of my ARs recently.  The bad ARs continued this past weekend and the coaches didn’t help keep things calm during a B18 game.  I should have known I was going to have problems when during my pregame the 20 y/o AR says “I’m a starting keeper at “JC name” and know all of this.”  My other AR was only in his year and has not done centers over U13 and has not worked many B19 games as an AR.  My pre-game is very thorough and takes at least 10 minutes to go through everything.  The game is going really smooth with few fouls and the players are not giving me any through the first 35 minutes.  The 20 y/o AR is on the Red parents side and those parents are being very vocal.  Easy foul call, I am about 10 yards behind with a great angle to be able to see the jersey hold and stretched a foot behind the player, on Red 30 yards from goal near the sideline.  A good 3-4 seconds after the call my AR starts waiving his flag and points the other way and yells, “you got it wrong the foul was on Blue.”  I wave his flag down and the Red players start to yell at me that the AR said it wasn’t a foul.  I herd the players into position and whistle for the kick.  Kick hits the top bar bounces down and comes out into the penalty area and a red player kicks the ball up field.  I could not tell if the ball had crossed the line and look over at my AR who was running up field with the players then he starts waving the flag while running.  Now I am confused.  I blow the whistle to stop play and ask him what the foul is for (he waved the flag which means a foul) and he yells that the ball went into the goal.  All hell breaks loose from the Red players, coach and spectators.  I get the game restarted quickly.  Half ends and I straighten my ARs out on the proper mechanics for a goal that only the AR sees.

First 10 minutes of second half are going smooth.  Then we have a corner kick on the inexperienced ARs side.  Ball gets kicked out just beyond the penalty area and I am focusing on the players going for the ball that gets headed out for a goal kick.  I look over and the keeper is on the ground holding his face and says a Blue player punched him.  I ask my AR and he says he was watching the ball instead of where I told him to focus on during the pre-game.  All I could was apploigize to the keeper for missing the punch.  I knew there was going to be retaliation and had to tighten up the game and continue to stay close to play.  10 minutes later Red crosses and the ball goes 4-5 feet over an offside Red players head and another Red player runs onto the ball and scores.  I look over at my AR and he is waving the flag like crazy.  I start to jog over to him, but he yells “the Red player was offside no goal.”  Blue players are happy and Red players and coach yelling at me and the AR.  I get the players away from us and ask him quietly which Red player and he says, “number 19 the ball went over his head and distracted the defenders.”  I tell him that was not offside and he says loud enough for the players to hear, “that was offside, you have it wrong.”  It took every bit of control not to tell him to leave, but I quietly told him to go to his sideline, do his job and not to publicly question me.  I indicate the goal was good and we restart.  I spend the remaining 20 minutes calling almost a foul a minute and had to warn both coaches once.  We ended in a tie with no injuries and two yellow cards per team.  Red coach tells me I suck.  Blue coach says, “you did a good job considering who you had to work with.”

A lot of the issues you brought occurred in my game, but not because the Center Referee didn’t know his shit or do a bad job. But, because of the ego and lack f knowledge of the LOTG and the other ARs inexperience.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

most referees are fine. some are poor. most coaches are fine, some are poor. i believe this thread tends to focus on the poor referees and it's not the norm. most of us will talk to a coach if that's what he/she tries to do, unless it's every call, or it's yelling and complaining and not a pertinent question. you want an explanation or two during the game, most of us are more than happy to give it. parents deserve no explanations because 99% of them don't know what they're watching to begin with. and this "we're the consumer we have a right to complain" is total garbage. just enjoy your kid's game. the game is always, always about the players. never about the parent. ever. get that through your heads. 

i'm ok with ratings as long as it's someone non-biased who is watching the performances. ratings from team managers and coaches are useless. 

again, sure there are referees who do a shitty job. sure there are referees who do a mediocre job. but it's a difficult job, and it's made that way mostly because of poor parents and coaches who think it's ok to abuse, or at the very least try to influence the referees. acting in that manner only hurts your players. It NEVER helps your players. 

I think you start there. coaches control yourselves and your parents, and if once that's accomplished, you have a crap referee that's nasty and doesn't want to be there, then you address it through proper channels.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

H


baldref said:


> most referees are fine. some are poor. most coaches are fine, some are poor. i believe this thread tends to focus on the poor referees and it's not the norm. most of us will talk to a coach if that's what he/she tries to do, unless it's every call, or it's yelling and complaining and not a pertinent question. you want an explanation or two during the game, most of us are more than happy to give it. parents deserve no explanations because 99% of them don't know what they're watching to begin with. and this "we're the consumer we have a right to complain" is total garbage. just enjoy your kid's game. the game is always, always about the players. never about the parent. ever. get that through your heads.
> 
> i'm ok with ratings as long as it's someone non-biased who is watching the performances. ratings from team managers and coaches are useless.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that there are many poor coaches out there (and parents who have zero idea or understanding of the laws of the game). Like I said, I’m a long-standing ref so consider myself part of both groups (referees and coaches) and I have to tell you; based on my experience for the last 6 years in SoCal (coaching, reffing and watching all levels of soccer) my assertion is that it’s a majority of both refs and coaches, not a minority, who are closer to the ‘poor’ end of the scale. This is mostly down to attitude and ego. 

I feel for referees at times because it looks like a difficult job with some of the abuse they get but the reality is that coaching and refereeing are not difficult jobs; they are made difficult by the attitude and actions of each ref and coach.

As a referee; if you are honest, prepared to communicate well with everyone, willing to put a smile on your face and have a good understanding of the LOTG, the job is easy and can even be enjoyable.

As a coach; if you are honest, prepared to communicate well with parents, willing to smile and understand how to relate to and inspire kids, the job is easy and can be enjoyable.

For referees like you @baldref who turn up to games armed with a smile (you sound like a smiler), a good grasp of the LOTG and a willingness to engage with parents/coaches, we should all be hugely grateful and pay you guys extra, quite frankly (I’d be happy to pay extra tips to solid refs at the end of any game). For those refs that turn up with almost the opposite attitude and approach, we need to find a way to engage and help them, hence this thread looking for ideas.

Your advice to coaches on controlling themselves and their parents is spot on by the way.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

while i don't agree with you 100%  on some of the minor details, i think we are on the same page in theory. 

and yes, i almost always have huge smile when i'm in the middle of a game, because it's so much damn fun. i have been doing it for a long time and have learned to deal with the fact that i just facilitate things. i don't cause coaches to get tossed. I don't cause the 16 year old boy that got fouled to come up swinging. i certainly didn't force that moronic parent to scream obscenities because i may have called a throw in the wrong direction so i had to demand they go away and miss sally's game. i'm at peace with those decisions, but it takes a long time, and some attitude adjusting, and the younger and less experienced referees don't have that yet. so i can understand why they get abrasiveness, defensive, and mean when dealing with the people who unfairly put that pressure on them. plus, like you say, some of them are rotten douchebags. that's the world today. 

so maybe part of the referee "education" system can be geared at demeanor and how to teach them that they shouldn't feel bad about what they have to do.  even when you're throwing out a numbskull coach in a 7v7 U9 game, you can do it with a smile on your face? and you can go home and not let it bother you?


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## MA0812 (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> H
> 
> 
> I agree with you that there are many poor coaches out there (and parents who have zero idea or understanding of the laws of the game). Like I said, I’m a long-standing ref so consider myself part of both groups (referees and coaches) and I have to tell you; based on my experience for the last 6 years in SoCal (coaching, reffing and watching all levels of soccer) my assertion is that it’s a majority of both refs and coaches, not a minority, who are closer to the ‘poor’ end of the scale. This is mostly down to attitude and ego.
> ...


Absolutely agree! When we are lucky enough to get refs and AR's that smile and engage all parties, it made for a great experience and even when there were misses or perceived misses by the uninformed parents all sides were much more forgiving and could chuckle about it. Parents apologize and refs/ar's acknowledge that something was missed. That sets a great example for the kids as well by taking ownership. There was mutual respect and the games were smooth. Maybe that is unrealistic to expect all of the time given how large the pool has to be to accommodate the number of games in CalSouth. It does work however and there really are some great officials out there but unfortunately there are some bad apples and some rotten ones too that spoil it. (parents/coaches fall into this as well) The league has a responsibility as well to ensure they are providing a quality product for those who are investing in their product and to ensure the safety of the players and the refs. Once it goes south it's too late. Just as much as parents, players, coaches, and refs need to own their side of the equation so to does the league. The stern talking to and mass emails only addresses one side of the responsibility. Sending an email doesn't address the in-house problems and accountability. Police yourself before you police others. 

Thank you to all of the good refs out there who are a positive part of the game. It sounds like we have several who have commented on this thread. (Surfref, etc)


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## Eagle33 (Sep 25, 2018)

baldref said:


> i believe this thread tends to focus on the poor referees and it's not the norm.


I will have to disagree on this. Poor refereeing is actually becoming the norm. What I've noticed lately most of the issues coming from experienced referees who for some strange reason act like they know it all and don't give a shit about anything. I also start seeing referees making up Laws as they go (per examples bellow). I'm not saying all referees are bad, but the good ones are very hard to come by lately.

Just past weekend I've seen following:
Game started with goals not being checked and one of the goals being 5 yards behind the field
Game started with AR still checking the net
Coach was Red carded for not wanting to substitute player per referee request
Player was Red carded for not wanting to leave the field per referee request


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I will have to disagree on this. Poor refereeing is actually becoming the norm. What I've noticed lately most of the issues coming from experienced referees who for some strange reason act like they know it all and don't give a shit about anything. I also start seeing referees making up Laws as they go (per examples bellow). I'm not saying all referees are bad, but the good ones are very hard to come by lately.
> 
> Just past weekend I've seen following:
> Game started with goals not being checked and one of the goals being 5 yards behind the field
> ...


totally disagree. i'm guessing, i wasn't there and can't be sure, that you're exaggerating and or wrong. i do know you have bias. i don't know, but suspect, that you really don't know what you're looking at. 

It's my contention that the problem starts with you and people like you. most referees are competent. most. very few are arrogant assholes that make shit up. very few. most and very few are different things.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 25, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> It involves saying "Hello" to the parents on the sidelines and introducing yourself to the coaches.





Surfref said:


> To start out with, referees are taught how to communication with the coaches and players, and to not talk to the spectators.


I'm doing AYSO 16s and below. I see this tip about checking in with the parents every so often. I'm there to positively interact with the players and coaches - especially the players - and I really could not care less about saying a word to the parents. If the game is flowing well, I'll let the parents know that we're having fun on the pitch (maybe a random "this is well played" comment when I'm close to the touch line) but walking up and saying "hello" before the match to the fans - not for me. 

That written, every now and then my son's team (2005s) will have a referee who does the "hello speech," which is nice. One of those guys we see every now and then is in the upper 10% of those we see, so maybe there's something to it?


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## Eagle33 (Sep 25, 2018)

baldref said:


> totally disagree. i'm guessing, i wasn't there and can't be sure, that you're exaggerating and or wrong. i do know you have bias. i don't know, but suspect, that you really don't know what you're looking at.
> 
> It's my contention that the problem starts with you and people like you. most referees are competent. most. very few are arrogant assholes that make shit up. very few. most and very few are different things.


I'm not wrong or biased and has been referee for a long time, currently I'm grade 15.


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## espola (Sep 25, 2018)

baldref said:


> totally disagree. i'm guessing, i wasn't there and can't be sure, that you're exaggerating and or wrong. i do know you have bias. i don't know, but suspect, that you really don't know what you're looking at.
> 
> It's my contention that the problem starts with you and people like you. most referees are competent. most. very few are arrogant assholes that make shit up. very few. most and very few are different things.


I agree.  You're guessing.


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## watfly (Sep 25, 2018)

I think most refs know the LOTG well.  However, what parents need to understand is that individual interpretations of the LOTG are highly subjective.  Spend anytime in the "C'mon Ref" forum and you will realize how true that is.  There is a video of a play in the forum right now that the Refs' opinions range from no call to a penalty and a red card.  What is one refs "careless" is another refs "excessive force".  Refs may also not make "by the book" calls based on a number of factors including age, ability and in the name of game management.  How is this subjectivity different from most other professions? It's not (see doctors, mechanics, attorneys...).  We all carry bias as to how things should be done.  That's normal human behavior.  Refs make mistakes like anyone else and most do their best to get the call correct in real time without the benefit of replay and slo mo which we have the luxury of using to second guess ref decisions.  However, I'm not condoning those refs that come physically or mentally unprepared to officiate game, those refs should be weeded out.

If refs are human, they would be best served to show a little humility when warranted.  I'm going to echo what others have said about communication.  Refs don't need to become Facebook friends with the spectators, but a simple icebreaker like "How's it going today parents?" or "I hope your kids have a great game today".  Little gestures like that go a long way to building rapport and disarming parents.  It also helps to dispel that "us vs them" impression.  Will this always work, of course not, but I've seen it be effective in quite a few situations.  I know some refs say they're instructed not to talk with the parents, which is particularly good advice when things are contentious.  But seriously, this is youth soccer, I don't think their should be any prohibition on refs exchanging pleasantries with parents.  It should be noted that included in USSF's last published Referee Administrative Handbook was the following number one listed item in the "The Referee Commitment":

                                           1) Officiating matches in a fair and safe manner that ensures player and spectator enjoyment.

Unfortunately, some refs believe they have no obligation to the spectator, and instead categorize all parents as stupid and don't understand the LOTG.  Here is a little article about refs leaving their ego at home.  http://nisoa.com/instruction/intercollegiate-instruction/2011/04/08/attitude-and-ego-leave-it-at-home/


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

One of the biggest issues I have is that referees who don't know the LOTG correctly become so ignorant and dismissive if you mention, even in a friendly way, a point of law which they are clearly getting wrong. Two examples below; the first one being the most common type of response I get when talking about points of law with officials.

1. Player with small part of the front of his foot on the field and most of it on the touchline. AR flags for foul throw. 
"Assistant, he is allowed to be on the field providing part of his feet are on the touchline." 
"No sir, you're wrong." 
"Sorry ref, I'm not trying to be a dick but that's how the throw-in law works. The foot on the field thing is a myth among referees. Don't take this the wrong way but check it out later, no big deal." (those are exactly the words I used). 
"No, you are wrong coach now shut up." 
I gave up.

2. Opposition pass a firm ball through to a player clearly 10 yards offside and it takes the slightest deflection off one of our players' jerseys who wasn't even looking at the ball. AR signals offside but referee waves play on and does the two hands 'friction' motion that all refs seem to do now, signaling a deflection. The player didn't score but when play stopped, I told the referee a very minor deflection like that does not invalidate the offside call. He told me that any deflection means it is no longer offside. Again, it was pointless trying to argue the issue and help him. He was a young guy and seemed very confident (he told me he was mentoring his younger brother who was AR) but again this is an example of a referee being too arrogant to consider that they might be incorrect and that will not serve him well moving forward.

Yes, referees may find it uncomfortable or patronizing that someone is trying to teach them (I see it as 'helping' not teaching) about the LOTG they don't fully understand so I do appreciate why they usually just say, "no sir, you don't know the laws, that's not correct."

If you go to see a paid lawyer and they don't know the law, you are going to shake your head and ask what's up. Sure, lawyers get paid more than referees but if you get paid for something, you should know the rules/laws or procedures relating to what you are being paid for IMO.


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## Grace T. (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> 2. Opposition pass a firm ball through to a player clearly 10 yards offside and it takes the slightest deflection off one of our players' jerseys who wasn't even looking at the ball. AR signals offside but referee waves play on and does the two hands 'friction' motion that all refs seem to do now, signaling a deflection. The player didn't score but when play stopped, I told the referee a very minor deflection like that does not invalidate the offside call. He told me that any deflection means it is no longer offside. Again, it was pointless trying to argue the issue and help him. He was a young guy and seemed very confident (he told me he was mentoring his younger brother who was AR) but again this is an example of a referee being too arrogant to consider that they might be incorrect and that will not serve him well moving forward.
> 
> .



I had the situation in a game this weekend.  I took a second to run Surfref's discussion on the ref forum about this on my head.  Player onside kicked it into the goal but not hard enough to go in...it defected against a defender's knee but the defender did not attempt to play the ball (even if he did, it would have been a block)...went to a striker in an offside position....striker scored....I hesitated for a second running the play and Surfref's points in my head....flag up, CR waives me on to discuss, CR backs me and disallows the goal.  Parents side line of course goes crazy....how is that offside.

I agree that like most professionals there is room for disagreement.  But there's a lot of room for disagreement now.  For example, is raising the knee by a keeper when an opponent around and the keeper is going for a high ball reckless or dangerous play.  Then there's also a very wide span of disagreement over what's trifling...I've had ref coordinators tell me that refs should try to interrupt the game as little as possible so the kids can have fun and ref coordinators tell me that every law is there for a reason and we should call all of it...that's a failing of the organizations, and in a diverse area like SoCal with lots of different soccer cultures (from the possession game, to the English physical game to the Mexican anything goes game [seriously saw a Latino coach this weekend calling for his players to "Bajalo" which means "take em down"]) that's just a recipe for disaster.  The orgs owe it the coaches, refs and players to provide guidance on how these things should be called and they are just failing at that right now.


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## Just A Dad (Sep 25, 2018)

I don't see a  lot of bad refs, some but not a lot but do see  a lot of over reaction from parents. My daughter is on the smaller side for a center back and when she gets in trouble on a play she is really good at making it look like she gets fouled by the larger player. sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't work the parents on our team go crazy yelling she took her out but what they didn't see was my daughter hook her and pull the girl on top of her and the ref made the right call. 

As a parent with a senior and sophomore I look back now and i'm embarrassed how i acted towards refs when my girls were U-little's.


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## zags77 (Sep 25, 2018)

This thread is the biggest waste of time.  End of the day we have a shortage of referees in this country because of the verbal abuse they take every Saturday and Sunday.  Number one rule for coaches to remember is THERE IS NO UPSIDE IN YELLING AT A REFEREE during a game.  ALL referees will miss calls and make mistakes, but they will do it for both teams.  When you yell at a referee it will always be the coaches word vs. the referees and the *REFEREE *will always win that battle no matter what youth league you are playing.  

Coaches, focus on your players and coaching your teams.  The coach is ultimately in charge of the sideline and if the parents see you getting worked up and animated they will follow suit.  If your players see you complaining and getting animated they will follow suit.  Coaches are the role models and set the standards, the only time you should talk to a referee in game is if your players are not in a safe environment.  Your job as a coach is to protect you players and make sure they are safe, yelling at a referee will not help in that regard.

Coaches you will get bad calls, you will also get calls in your favor, its the nature of the game.  Yelling at the referee for EVERY call  will get you nowhere.  Its ok to plant seeds as a coach but you can do it in tactful manner where you don't disrespect the referee in front of everyone, end of the day these men and women all make mistakes.  I would be hard pressed to ever blame an outcome or a result on a referee and it happens to often in youth sports.  You didn't win because you didn't score more goals than the other team, you didn't defend well, you didn't finish your chances.  The list goes on and on.  Focus on what you can do better vs. putting blame on the referee.

Treating a referee like HUMAN being goes a long way them, lets be thankful of the job they do for our youth.   Talking to them with respect before, after and in game makes them feel appreciated and might even help earn you some calls!!

Thanks refs, your job is not easy!


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## mlx (Sep 25, 2018)

zags77 said:


> This thread is the biggest waste of time...


No, that's a bunch of baloney. Yes, there are mistakes but there's also bad referees that take sides. They can be intimidated by a coach, or they can "punish" a yelling coach by having all of his "mistakes" on that coach's team. 

Two weeks ago, opposing coach was yelling at the ref all the first half in a bully way. The ref got intimidated and did nothing. By the second half, the ball is out of bounds by 2 inches and the ref didn't see it. Our coach just yelled "Hey! at least make an effort to run so you can see it!!"; well, that was enough for that ref to call an nonexistent penalty against our team. That single yell by our non-bully coach.

Refs like that should not be officiating matches, the fact that "there's a shortage" doesn't mean that we must take the bad ones and be "thankful" for them. No.


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## Keepermom2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I really appreciate the information refs. share on here when there isn't unnecessary fighting.  I always read Surf Ref's entire posts and have come to appreciate his take on a given situation.

I think the refs. should have to take a test periodically (like quarterly) on the laws of the game including examples of real life game situations (most commonly experienced that require quick critical thinking especially with Goalkeepers (sorry I want my Keeper protected.  LOL) and receive a grade on it.  The higher the grade, the more they get paid.  If teams want the best refs. than they should pay for it.  Someone mentioned giving a tip for quality reffing.  While in theory that sounds good if everyone was ethical, unfortunately that would probably produce some payments for one sided calls.  I think if there was motivation to get more money through knowledge, then the desire for knowledge would increase.

Maybe a grading scale:

a. Years of experience
b. Physical fitness test (Quarterly tests)
c. Knowledge of the game (Quarterly tests)
d. Periodic review of ability to control the game (I am pretty certain there is widespread knowledge of which clubs/teams have the most issues and those are the games that should be reviewed)
e. Center refs. evaluate AR's every game

The higher the grade, the more they cost. 

Generally I have to commend most refs. because they generally seem unphased by the stupidity they experience on a regular basis and have an extraordinary ability to ignore the stupidity that I myself would never be able to do.


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## Grace T. (Sep 25, 2018)

zags77 said:


> End of the day we have a shortage of referees in this country because of the verbal abuse they take every Saturday and Sunday.


I agree the abuse is part of it.  But like most divorces, that's not the entire story and there's generally more than one side to the story.  I've been on both ends of the stick now and can see both sides of the story.  Yes, many [not all] parents are obnoxious...my own father once got told off by a ref for yelling "offside" on a throw in .  But parents also have, in many cases, good cause to complain against the [again, not all] clueless refs, refs that just don't care, and the let 'em play refs that create dangerous situations.  New referees aren't provided sufficient [what should be free] support, and that was the thing that discouraged me the most from USSF reffing last year, not to mention a few latent examples of sexism.  The soccer orgs [from FIFA to USSF to CalSouth] don't provide sufficient guidance for how things should be called.  The soccer orgs don't provide sufficient transparency for refs ratings or to protect the refs.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 25, 2018)

Keepermom2 said:


> I really appreciate the information refs. share on here when there isn't unnecessary fighting.  I always read Surf Ref's entire posts and have come to appreciate his take on a given situation.
> 
> I think the refs. should have to take a test periodically (like quarterly) on the laws of the game including examples of real life game situations (most commonly experienced that require quick critical thinking especially with Goalkeepers (sorry I want my Keeper protected.  LOL) and receive a grade on it.  The higher the grade, the more they get paid.  If teams want the best refs. than they should pay for it.  Someone mentioned giving a tip for quality reffing.  While in theory that sounds good if everyone was ethical, unfortunately that would probably produce some payments for one sided calls.  I think if there was motivation to get more money through knowledge, then the desire for knowledge would increase.
> 
> ...


Most of this already in place. Higher level referees get higher level games, which in turn pay more. They also have to be present at monthly meetings and pass pretty rigorous physical test. They also get assessed on a high level games. Referees who do DA games, gets assessed almost at every game. Those refs you most likely don't see, since they are doing those high level games. The one you see every weekend is the ones who get their Grade 8 and "I don't give a shit" attitude.


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## watfly (Sep 25, 2018)

zags77 said:


> Treating a referee like HUMAN being goes a long way them, lets be thankful of the job they do for our youth.   Talking to them with respect before, after and in game makes them feel appreciated and might even help earn you some calls!!


I agree completely.  What I'm, and a few others, are trying to point out is that this is a two-way street.  I think everyone would be better off if refs, coaches and administrators took more of a customer service oriented approach to parents, particularly in regards to communication.


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## Keepermom2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> Most of this already in place. Higher level referees get higher level games, which in turn pay more. They also have to be present at monthly meetings and pass pretty rigorous physical test. They also get assessed on a high level games. Referees who do DA games, gets assessed almost at every game. Those refs you most likely don't see, since they are doing those high level games. The one you see every weekend is the ones who get their Grade 8 and "I don't give a shit" attitude.


Interesting...I wondered about that.  Good to know.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 25, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> I had the situation in a game this weekend.  I took a second to run Surfref's discussion on the ref forum about this on my head.  Player onside kicked it into the goal but not hard enough to go in...it defected against a defender's knee but the defender did not attempt to play the ball (even if he did, it would have been a block)...went to a striker in an offside position....striker scored....I hesitated for a second running the play and Surfref's points in my head....flag up, CR waives me on to discuss, CR backs me and disallows the goal.  Parents side line of course goes crazy....how is that offside.
> 
> I agree that like most professionals there is room for disagreement.  But there's a lot of room for disagreement now.  For example, is raising the knee by a keeper when an opponent around and the keeper is going for a high ball reckless or dangerous play.  Then there's also a very wide span of disagreement over what's trifling...I've had ref coordinators tell me that refs should try to interrupt the game as little as possible so the kids can have fun and ref coordinators tell me that every law is there for a reason and we should call all of it...that's a failing of the organizations, and in a diverse area like SoCal with lots of different soccer cultures (from the possession game, to the English physical game to the Mexican anything goes game [seriously saw a Latino coach this weekend calling for his players to "Bajalo" which means "take em down"]) that's just a recipe for disaster.  The orgs owe it the coaches, refs and players to provide guidance on how these things should be called and they are just failing at that right now.


You bring up some very good points.  I'm just starting out as a volunteer AYSO ref.  The way I resolve these conflicting applications of the LOTG is by remembering the purpose for that particular rule.   What's the purpose of the tripping foul rule?  In this case it's player safety and gaining advantage.  So if a player goes to kick a ball and misses but glances the boot of the opponent, but the opponent continues on without being impeded, I don't blow the whistle.  Accidental contact that was not dangerous or unsafe and which didn't give anyone an advantage.  But there are many cases where it's debatable if the contact swayed the play or might have hurt.  There's a lot of gray area between a glancing blow which doesn't slow a player down at all, and a blatant trip.   So the ref has to be given the leeway to make these decisions without being harassed or second guessed constantly.  



zags77 said:


> Treating a referee like HUMAN being goes a long way them, lets be thankful of the job they do for our youth. Talking to them with respect before, after and in game makes them feel appreciated and might even help earn you some calls!!


I had a tough no-call myself this weekend on two players going shoulder to shoulder in the box.  It was on the verge of being a foul, but both players were using their arms to fight the other off the ball.  The defender just happened to be twice the size of the attacker, so I was inclined to blow the whistle and grant a PK, but the attacker was still able to get her shot off, though it hit the post.   I hesitated, and had the urge to call it, but in the end, I could not see that the play was unsafe, the arms were not ever extended into a full push, and both players were doing it to each other.  So I swallowed my whistle much to the unhappiness of the dad of the attacker.  After the game, he came up to me in the parking lot.  We had a 15 minute discussion about all the things he was unhappy about.  He was definitely too emotionally invested in this game, but I treated him respectfully and explained why I didn't call a foul here or a hand-ball there.  I told him that it was close and that I understood why he thought it should have been a foul, but that I simply didn't see enough to warrant it.  I complimented his daughter on her play and I acknowledged his concerns.  This diffused most of his anger and I let him vent a little bit.  In the end, he shook my hand and we parted on good terms.  But I'm an EXTREMELY patient person who has been paid to counsel and manage conflict professionally for years.  I wondered how many refs out there have the benefit of my background?  This was a U10 girls AYSO game.  I can't imagine why anyone would want to ref a competitive club game for the paltry sums they pay and be subjected to this sort of confrontation or worse on the regular.  If I had been in a bad mood, or a bit more irritated myself, that conversation in the parking lot could have gone bad in a hurry.  Nobody needs this crap, especially if you're VOLUNTEERING.


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## jpeter (Sep 25, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> Most of this already in place. Higher level referees get higher level games, which in turn pay more. They also have to be present at monthly meetings and pass pretty rigorous physical test. They also get assessed on a high level games. Referees who do DA games, gets assessed almost at every game. Those refs you most likely don't see, since they are doing those high level games. The one you see every weekend is the ones who get their Grade 8 and "I don't give a shit" attitude.


For which leagues are you referring to?

For the discovery division of  DSL I heard the association they contracted  with don't have enough of the higher grade types to cover the games.   For the older boys there were CR's this past weekend that couldn't keep up physically according to mutiple sources I heard from about all the commotion.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 25, 2018)

jpeter said:


> For which leagues are you referring to?
> 
> For the discovery division of  DSL I heard the association they contracted  with don't have enough of the higher grade types to cover the games.   For the older boys there were CR's this past weekend that couldn't keep up physically according to mutiple sources I heard from about all the commotion.


I don't think any association have enough higher grade referees to cover games during any weekend of Fall season - Discovery or other leagues.


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## Grace T. (Sep 25, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> I had a tough no-call myself this weekend on two players going shoulder to shoulder in the box.  It was on the verge of being a foul, but both players were using their arms to fight the other off the ball.  .


Had the opposite again, different game.   2 players battling shoulder to shoulder, defender raises his arm up towards the chest to push the striker...classic "swimming".  Nothing that endangers either opponent.  Striker did not fall.  But it was enough for the defender to get advantage and win the ball away, which he promptly kicked out.   Otherwise, the striker might have passed it to a winger running down my side.  I shook flag for DFK, CR hadn't seen since he had the players backs, I signaled swimming to the CR.  Does it rise to the level of careless "a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge"?  I'd argue it does and the definition of careless is a very broad one.  The "let it play" refs would never have called that, saying it was trifling.  But if you go by the letter I don't see how it isn't.  Exactly why more guidance is needed.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> I don't think any association have enough higher grade referees to cover games during any weekend of Fall season - Discovery or other leagues.


I guess then it’s up to us don’t give a shit grade 8s.
Sorry bout that


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## Simisoccerfan (Sep 25, 2018)

Been happy so far with the quality of the refs at our DA games.  I like most of them wear communication devices and the center ref and AR's can discuss their calls.


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## socalkdg (Sep 25, 2018)

My daughter has done travel and rec basketball.    Soccer refs, coaches, and fans are way ahead of the basketball culture.    Very inconsistent calls,  coaches on the court yelling at refs all the time, and fans that are so close to a ref that you worry they will jump one of them when they are cussing them out.   Youth basketball is crazy.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

The level of games is obviously a factor. DA and the other ‘top’ leagues likely get the best refs and that’s fair enough. The best referees want to be doing the top games and that makes sense. I’ve watched a few DA games and the referees are undoubtedly more confident (and often more competent) than most I see officiating in CSL or other leagues. That said, I think it’s important to point out that there are some good refs at lower levels, they are not all bad, it’s not all doom and gloom!

I’ve personally not seen a difference in the quality of referees between bronze/flight 3 and the higher level brackets (gold, premier, flight 1 etc) though. My guess is the best refs do DA and ECNL etc and then the rest of the leagues are just potluck in terms of how refs are assigned and assessed/rated.

An Uber-style rating system that everyone has access to (for rating refs, coaches and sidelines) would be a helpful addition I think.


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## JCM (Sep 25, 2018)

My son is 12 and has AR'd his first games.  Whether on purpose or not, he's had four very experienced centers in every game including one who the same weekend was officiating DA, a USWNT u17 scrimmage and a Pac 12 college game.  To say there aren't experienced refs in these lower leagues isn't true.  There are of course newbies like my son.  But there is such a shortage of refs that if you can't accept refs that make mistakes then the only solution is for you to replace them.

My son has had an uneventful first few games and I've watched him make numerous mistakes with throw in calls.  He's getting better though and the centers have corrected him when he was wrong.  Oddly the only bad parents were Presidio u12 girls parents, everyone else has been great.  In that game a parent yelled at the center ref and swore at him.  It really changes your perspective when you are watching to support the ref than to support a player or team.  My son wasn't being yelled at, but my view on the parent certainly was that he is a psycho and I can't believe how worked up he's getting over a kid's soccer game.

I'd ask any parent who thinks it's appropriate for them to yell at an official or view themselves as a customer instead of a spectator to think how they'd want their son or daughter treated.  Having coached for a long time and met refs for 25 years, I know that most are doing their best even when they aren't up to the standards we hope for them.  And now having a second child who refs I know that the assignors do pay attention and try to get good refs more games, but often it comes down to having whatever ref is available versus no game at all due to shortages or injuries.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

JCM said:


> My son is 12 and has AR'd his first games.  Whether on purpose or not, he's had four very experienced centers in every game including one who the same weekend was officiating DA, a USWNT u17 scrimmage and a Pac 12 college game.  To say there aren't experienced refs in these lower leagues isn't true.  There are of course newbies like my son.  But there is such a shortage of refs that if you can't accept refs that make mistakes then the only solution is for you to replace them.
> 
> My son has had an uneventful first few games and I've watched him make numerous mistakes with throw in calls.  He's getting better though and the centers have corrected him when he was wrong.  Oddly the only bad parents were Presidio u12 girls parents, everyone else has been great.  In that game a parent yelled at the center ref and swore at him.  It really changes your perspective when you are watching to support the ref than to support a player or team.  My son wasn't being yelled at, but my view on the parent certainly was that he is a psycho and I can't believe how worked up he's getting over a kid's soccer game.
> 
> I'd ask any parent who thinks it's appropriate for them to yell at an official or view themselves as a customer instead of a spectator to think how they'd want their son or daughter treated.  Having coached for a long time and met refs for 25 years, I know that most are doing their best even when they aren't up to the standards we hope for them.  And now having a second child who refs I know that the assignors do pay attention and try to get good refs more games, but often it comes down to having whatever ref is available versus no game at all due to shortages or injuries.


several assignors i work with are all about having experienced (even if they are don't give a shit grade 8s.....) referees there to not only help and mentor the youth ARs, but to protect them. and of course it's not true that the ecnl and da games get the best referees. they get the higher grade number referees and they get the referees who are buddies with those particular assignors. are they good referees? sure, most are. is it because their badge  number is 7 instead of 8? or even 6 instead of 8? not hardly. i love working with the youth referees and ask for those games a lot. 

in presidio and sdda with the auto assigning, you can get a really high level referees who do college games, DA games, any types of games. you can also get joe schmo "doesn't give a shit grade 8s" like me.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 25, 2018)

baldref said:


> and of course it's not true that the ecnl and da games get the best referees.


I agree with this 100%.  There seems to be just about the same ratio of good to bad refs in every league my kid has played in.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

mlx said:


> No, that's a bunch of baloney. Yes, there are mistakes but there's also bad referees that take sides. They can be intimidated by a coach, or they can "punish" a yelling coach by having all of his "mistakes" on that coach's team.
> 
> Two weeks ago, opposing coach was yelling at the ref all the first half in a bully way. The ref got intimidated and did nothing. By the second half, the ball is out of bounds by 2 inches and the ref didn't see it. Our coach just yelled "Hey! at least make an effort to run so you can see it!!"; well, that was enough for that ref to call an nonexistent penalty against our team. That single yell by our non-bully coach.
> 
> Refs like that should not be officiating matches, the fact that "there's a shortage" doesn't mean that we must take the bad ones and be "thankful" for them. No.


cuckoo


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him. I smiled. Interestingly, he turned out to be rather poor; perhaps an indication that, like @baldref says, it's maybe not always the 'best' refs doing the higher games, just the ones with the higher badge number.

As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.


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## baldref (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him. I smiled. Interestingly, he turned out to be rather poor; perhaps an indication that, like @baldref says, it's maybe not always the 'best' refs doing the higher games, just the ones with the higher badge number.
> 
> As with coaching, the badge number or qualification letter can often have no bearing on the quality and performance in that field.


a game is important no matter what level or age it is. and by important, i mean to the players. hopefully, i'm never doing a "warm down" game. ever.


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## watfly (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> Last week for our B07's, the ref made a point of telling me before kick off that he had officiated a number of D1 games and so this game was "just a warm down" for him.


At least he gave you a heads up that he was going to do a half-ass job before the game started.


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## Surfref (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> One of the biggest issues I have is that referees who don't know the LOTG correctly become so ignorant and dismissive if you mention, even in a friendly way, a point of law which they are clearly getting wrong. Two examples below; the first one being the most common type of response I get when talking about points of law with officials.
> 
> 1. Player with small part of the front of his foot on the field and most of it on the touchline. AR flags for foul throw.
> "Assistant, he is allowed to be on the field providing part of his feet are on the touchline."
> ...


It is disheartening to hear that a Referee told you, a coach, to “shut up.”  That is extremely unprofessional and disrespectful.  That is completely uncalled for even if the coach is being a complete a-hole.  That is a line that refs cannot cross.

As for the throw in.  I get yelled at all the time by coaches and spectators that a player’s foot was on the field.  My response is always a quick, “the whole foot must be on the field to be a bad throw.”  I have even let it go when a player’s entire foot is an inch on the field since that is trifling and an inch or two will not make any difference in the throw-in since we really just want to get the ball back into play.  I will be stricter on the 7v7 and 9v9 games since those players are still learning.


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## Surfref (Sep 25, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> I agree the abuse is part of it.  But like most divorces, that's not the entire story and there's generally more than one side to the story.  I've been on both ends of the stick now and can see both sides of the story.  Yes, many [not all] parents are obnoxious...my own father once got told off by a ref for yelling "offside" on a throw in .  But parents also have, in many cases, good cause to complain against the [again, not all] clueless refs, refs that just don't care, and the let 'em play refs that create dangerous situations.  New referees aren't provided sufficient [what should be free] support, and that was the thing that discouraged me the most from USSF reffing last year, not to mention a few latent examples of sexism.  The soccer orgs [from FIFA to USSF to CalSouth] don't provide sufficient guidance for how things should be called.  The soccer orgs don't provide sufficient transparency for refs ratings or to protect the refs.


I have to agree with you on basic referee education.  It is now online, but used to be a two day class over a weekend and new refs seemed to have a better base knowledge to start.  IMHO the entry level online Referee course is as useless as the basic coaching course.


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## Surfref (Sep 25, 2018)

jpeter said:


> For which leagues are you referring to?
> 
> For the discovery division of  DSL I heard the association they contracted  with don't have enough of the higher grade types to cover the games.   For the older boys there were CR's this past weekend that couldn't keep up physically according to mutiple sources I heard from about all the commotion.


That is because the Discovery games are centralized at Silverlakes.  Not many referees are willing to travel long distances to Referee 2-3 youth games.  I would gladly work those games, but am not driving almost 2 hours to work for 5 hours and $160 just to have to drive another 2 hours home.  That is only $18 an hour and does not take into account the $30 for gas.  Pay me $250 ($28 an hour) for those 3 games plus travel and I might consider it.  The ones I really feel sorry for are the assigners.  They may have a hundred games to cover in a weekend but only enough referees for 80 games, so they have to resort to methods they probably don’t want to use.  Such as assigning refs to 5-6 games in a day.  Assigning referees to games that they really are not ready for that level.  My main assigner is usually really good but once in a while he will put a new ref with me on a game that they are not ready for.  Most of these refs try to do a good job and really listen to the pre-game, halftime talk and post game.  Then you have the clueless assigners.  I am up in LA area this Friday and first thing on Saturday, so I reached out to the local association to pick up some Saturday afternoon games.  This assigner put me on 4 low level 9v9 no heading games with only one center.  I called him and asked him why the lower level games.  He said I don’t know you.  My response was, “I am a State referee which should tell you that I am capable of refereeing the higher levels.”  He asked me if I wanted to cancel.  My answer was “no, I have already taken the assignments and those 9v9 players probably don’t get a State ref very often.”  I enjoy doing the 7v7 and 9v9 games but get those games along with higher level from my home assigner.


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## Surfref (Sep 25, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Had the opposite again, different game.   2 players battling shoulder to shoulder, defender raises his arm up towards the chest to push the striker...classic "swimming".  Nothing that endangers either opponent.  Striker did not fall.  But it was enough for the defender to get advantage and win the ball away, which he promptly kicked out.   Otherwise, the striker might have passed it to a winger running down my side.  I shook flag for DFK, CR hadn't seen since he had the players backs, I signaled swimming to the CR.  Does it rise to the level of careless "a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge"?  I'd argue it does and the definition of careless is a very broad one.  The "let it play" refs would never have called that, saying it was trifling.  But if you go by the letter I don't see how it isn't.  Exactly why more guidance is needed.


This is one of those calls that you have to take into account the skill level of the players.  Most higher level players are okay with that type of contact and will play through because they know their teammate will do the same thing.  Higher level players usually do not want a lot of stoppages for trifling fouls.  At lower levels that same play should probably be called.  Remember the game is for the players, so listen to their comments.  If they are complaining about too many fouls or light fouls, then loosen up and let them play.  The players will let you know quickly when you need to tighten up slightly.  I always start with a tight game for the first 10 minutes and start to loosen up by listening to the players comments.  This is not a constant but an ever changing series of small adjustments to match how the players are playing.  Someone in an earlier post said refereeing was actually easy, but if you do it correctly it is 90 minutes of intense concentration, evaluation, and adjustments.  After a 90 minute center, I am just as mentally tired as I am physically tired.  I had four 90 minute games on Saturday with three centers and ran 20.4 miles and was completely mentally exhausted.  It is also a lot of fun and a good challenge 90 percent of the time.


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## Surfref (Sep 25, 2018)

JCM said:


> ......My son has had an uneventful first few games and I've watched him make numerous mistakes with throw in calls.  He's getting better though and the centers have corrected him when he was wrong.  Oddly the only bad parents were Presidio u12 girls parents, everyone else has been great.  In that game a parent yelled at the center ref and swore at him.  It really changes your perspective when you are watching to support the ref than to support a player or team.  My son wasn't being yelled at, but my view on the parent certainly was that he is a psycho and I can't believe how worked up he's getting over a kid's soccer game.
> 
> I'd ask any parent who thinks it's appropriate for them to yell at an official or view themselves as a customer instead of a spectator to think how they'd want their son or daughter treated.  Having coached for a long time and met refs for 25 years, I know that most are doing their best even when they aren't up to the standards we hope for them.  And now having a second child who refs I know that the assignors do pay attention and try to get good refs more games, but often it comes down to having whatever ref is available versus no game at all due to shortages or injuries.


Sorry your son had to witness the U12 parents bad behavior.  Hopefully the CR had the coach remove the offending parents.  We referee as a team, so if a parent yells at me they are yelling at the entire referee team including that youth referee.  I will not tolerate any parent or coach yelling at a youth referee.  I will warn a coach once, but a parent gets no warning. All that the CR has to do is have the coach remove one parent for yelling at a youth referee and the rest of the parents will shut up.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I have even let it go when a player’s entire foot is an inch on the field since that is trifling and an inch or two will not make any difference in the throw-in since we really just want to get the ball back into play.


I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.

Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being 
made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.

In the hundreds of games I’ve officiated, I can honestly say I can count the foul throws I’ve called on one hand; even those were only given because the action was so obvious that it was embarrassing and so I had to give it!

Spread your sensible approach around please!


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## Zdrone (Sep 25, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Such as assigning refs to 5-6 games in a day.  Assigning referees to games that they really are not ready for that level.


First off, much thanks for the explanations.  I know this board can be a bitch fest and rare is the time that someone takes the time to post something positive or informative.

As to the quote above; I was speaking to a coach last weekend who was covering a boys 04 flight 1 champions game for his 5th game and close to 100 degrees outside.  All 3 on the crew were fairly young but I can imagine the toll it might take on someone shall we say “with more experience in life.” 

I think the parents need to put themselves in the referees position, especially in a mid afternoon game.  They’ve already been yelled at for 3-4 games, explained the same thing 12 times and are probably done with humans as a species.

I think everyone on the board has had at least one poor experience but it tends to stick in your mind and override the vast majority of other games that the ref has been more or less invisible and its just the kids playing.

I would like to say it will “improve” when our kids are coaching/reffing/watching as parents as they are growing up with the game but (partly in jest) I think those that grew up with soccer can be as bad if not worse than those like me who grew up on baseball.


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## Grace T. (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.
> 
> Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
> made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.
> ...


Then why have the law?  It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid".  Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game".  But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST".  Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.

That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer.  Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get.  And that's what's infuriating to the parents.  Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins.  I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance.  For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.


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## Zdrone (Sep 25, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get.  And that's what's infuriating to the parents.  Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins.


Agree with you on this.  The first 5-10 minutes of each game seems to be “what is the ref going to call?”  

As long as the game is called both ways, the kids usually figure out the limits pretty quick.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 25, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Then why have the law?  It should instead just read: "it's suggested that players have their feet on the ground and the ball behind their head, but so long as a reasonable effort to approximate the correct position is made, the throw in is valid".  Heck...why call it a law?...it should be the "Recommendations of the Game".  But that 's not what it says...and unlike a careless foul which leaves room for interpretation over what is trifling, when it comes to throwin the laws say "MUST".  Now I agree with you that the law isn't sensibly written, but I'm not the one that gets to write them.
> 
> That said, I'd be o.k. with Surfref's proposition to judge the higher levels trifling as broader than say the rec levels, but if that's the guidance then it should be uniform and across U.S. soccer.  Otherwise, it's a different game depending on what referee you get.  And that's what's infuriating to the parents.  Some refs will be o.k. with even low level bronze players playing the true Mexican anything goes physical game and running up the field to throw in a ball v. some ref that's calling swimming and incorrect throwins.  I don't care what the rule is, and I know that it will vary from ref to ref in degrees...but the amount of space we have now between the most strict and the most lax is an ocean and the soccer orgs really need to get a hold of it and provide guidance.  For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.


Simple really. As referees, if we were to stick to every law like robots, the game would completely lose any flow and be worse for it.

Seriously, imagine Premier League or World Cup games where foul throws are called every few minutes (watch closely, throw-ins at the top level are often outside of the ‘law’). 

A huge part of officiating is being able to adapt to the level of players in front of you and adjust/adapt to the demands of the particular game and the environment. That doesn’t mean you ignore the LOTG; it just means you use common sense and discretion. Wisely.


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## Tea and Busquets (Sep 25, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I really wish all referees would take this approach and make an effort to understand what ‘trifling’ really is. Players being called for bad throw-ins because their foot is a millimeter off the ground or the ball starts only 95% behind their head instead of completely behind; this kind of stuff is so infuriating as the idea of a throw-in is simply to get the ball back in play.
> 
> Why no foul throws in the pro game? Because fans would be up in arms if we wasted time on this pointless stuff when we want to see the game being played. It’s just as important for youth; we want to see them playing, not being
> made to throw-in the ball like robots for fear of being called for a foul throw.
> ...


Same with hand ball, please!  Out of every 10 hand ball calls I see, perhaps 1 was actually deliberate.


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## Zvezdas (Sep 26, 2018)

In comparison to old coast league days, i am pretty satisfied with the DA refs and their level of knowledge.  I am just curious, this is question for Surfref and Baldref, i noticed last season at u12 DA and now with U13 we are getting mostly younger refs, literally in their mid 20's and a few times we had older gentlemen, are those refs more ambitious or better rated, whats the process for someone to become DA ref?  Thanks


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## MWN (Sep 26, 2018)

Let me add a few observations:

Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee.  I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee.  What are those two items?  

The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart.  With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game.  The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent.  In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents.  Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.  

The second item is "advantage," which is a little easier but usually involves fouls that get the sidelines much more riled up.  With advantage there are always those two or three parents that went freaking ballistic because the "hard foul" wasn't called and just don't understand that their team still has the ball and is on the move.  Nope, the referee is "blind" ... "call it both ways" ... or whatever insult they think is appropriate.

So, how can you become a more educated spectator, just read the IFAB: http://theifab.com/document/laws-of-the-game, yes I know its 212 pages which exceeds the typical tweeter feed post limit by factor of 234,523,212,002X but you are smart, right?

Note, the Laws of the Game change get revised each year, so put this on your New Years Resolution list.


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## Tea and Busquets (Sep 26, 2018)

MWN said:


> Let me add a few observations:
> 
> Referees make judgement calls on two items that the average parent/spectator just doesn't understand, which in turn creates serious misunderstandings as to the competency of a referee.  I see it all the time in my capacity as a "parent" on the sideline who just happens to also be a referee.  What are those two items?
> 
> The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart.  With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game.  The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent.  In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents.  Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.


If I could 'Winner' more than once, I would! If parents, players, and even coaches could grasp this concept, games would be more enjoyable for everyone. 

This is my beef with the segment of parents (even on here) that dismiss "let-them-play referees" as a danger to kids.  The real problem is the expectation that any contact should be whistled as a foul, a la basketball.  Adding to the problem are the referees who think similarly, and call their games accordingly.  That helps perpetuate the idea that _everything_ should be called. 

There are bad referees who call every little thing and bad referees who don't keep up with play and bad referees who do not know the game well enough.  But having seen the  issue from all sides as a player, coach, and referee, everyone needs to accept that they won't always agree with the referees and that the referees will make some mistakes.  Part of the game is dealing with and overcoming that adversity.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 26, 2018)

Zvezdas said:


> In comparison to old coast league days, i am pretty satisfied with the DA refs and their level of knowledge.  I am just curious, this is question for Surfref and Baldref, i noticed last season at u12 DA and now with U13 we are getting mostly younger refs, literally in their mid 20's and a few times we had older gentlemen, are those refs more ambitious or better rated, whats the process for someone to become DA ref?  Thanks


Sorry to jump in and I'm sure Surfref and Baldref will give you a better answer.
US Soccer is trying really hard and very successfully to bring young and promising referees through the ranks. Just like they are doing with making DA players age younger and younger.
Those refs being put on the fast track and developed what they called in a "meaningful" games. They get constant training and assessment. Physical abilities play the major factor why you see younger referees and of course the fact that what better to get experience for them then doing 12-13 yo games?
To become DA referee you need to apply through US Soccer (that's who assign and pay for DA games). Any certified referee can apply and then go through the paperwork and clearance process, and passing the DA Rules test, which is a little different than USSF test. 
For example I was surprised when I got excepted to referee DA Showcase last Summer since I'm Emeritus, which technically considers to be inactive or retired referee. I was even more surprised when I found out that I was The only Emeritus in the tournament.


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## younothat (Sep 26, 2018)

/Philosophy side bar

Expectations......when those don't jive with reality some people have a hard time accepting and become unhappy 

The expectations are that everybody will get highly qualified experienced officials for every game, they will be 100% fit,  running up & down all game and be close by for every call,  all judgement calls, 50/50, tackle, foul, etc  should go their way, all the rules should be called perfectly, everything should be equal and fair, no mistakes are allowed,   and the untrained spectator knows better than the trained personnel.    Doesn't matter if its the first game of the day or the last one where the officials could have been working all day, we still demand all these things are done to our satisfaction or we will become vocal or angry if we don't get them.   

The "golden" league or tournament Expectation;  Hey we play in XYZ league so the coaches, fields, and refs are better than ABC league where we used to play never mind the coaches, fields, and refs are mostly the same but they have that "golden" patch that servers as a reminder that the expectations are greater. 

You hear spectators, coaches, tell each other or the players that the officials will be this way or that way, don't expect any calls in your favor or whatever  before hand but still  some people are quick to forget that and become unhappy at the first judgement call or thing that doesn't go there way.

Normally a good  way of sustaining high happiness levels is to maintain low expectations but we can't seem to do that with youth sports.  Happiness is normally inversely proportional to one’s expectations. 

Setting low expectations seems like a easy concept, but in reality nearly impossible to practice. Subconscious doesn't allow it, thus we revert to being unhappy or vocal.  Our past experiences generate expectations, we can't start from scratch or have a clean slate or open mind  so the slightest things can bother some people and they act out. 

So what can you do?  Rather than trying to manage expectations before  something occurs,  you have to mange your self better after the "expectations" don't meet your standard.  

/ Philosophy end

So what can Referees and associations do to improve relations:   First thing I can think of is better communications, feedback, and open visibility to what's going on,  2nd thing is more accountability 

Feedback not enough of this is done is this area IMO,  maybe due to language barriers,  people not speaking up, or feeling like they can. Feedback should be given to a team and they should be able to give some of that back.   Let the players and coach give some feedback after each game, written & documented so there are no miss understandings.  Same with the officials how about publishing some of feedback that was given to a team? 

There are game reports, notes, ratings, etc all of which are not normally available  so most have have no way of knowing whats going on for example. 

Accountability  is like a black box, what, how, or when are referees and associations being held accountable?  Coaches, spectators, players can be disciplines but how about the officials?  we don't see their yellow cards, ratings, or whatever so people tend to think the can do whatever job they want and they won't be held accountable,   Not that "so and so Ref again, he or she is this or that." and noting seems to change.


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## Grace T. (Sep 26, 2018)

MWN said:


> The concept of "trifling" ... yes it was a foul, but it was not enough to blow the whistle, stop play and then restart.  With trifling fouls we have to quickly ascertain whether the infraction is enough to disrupt the flow of the game.  The thing about trifling fouls are that 94.475% of all parents fundamentally don't understand that referees are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL many fouls, but see the lack of a call on their sweet, darling player as evidence the "fix is in" the Referee is on the take or just incompetent.  In fact, its not the referee that is incompetent its ... well 94.475% of the parents.  Note, the roughly 5% that are not incompetent are referees with kids that play.
> 
> .


Agree with you on advantage but disagree with you on "trifling".  As I've said before, the problem isn't with the refs or spectators here, but with the Laws and the guidance for how the game is to be interpreted.  IIRC, the word "trifling" doesn't appear in the Laws.  To be a foul it has to be careless, reckless or use excess force. Law 12.1.  A careless foul is either "when a player shows lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge" or "acts without precaution". Law 12.1  That's a VERY expansive definition.  Trifling used to be included as a clarifying decision to Law 5 as advice to FIFA to referees.  The clarification provided that referees should stop the game as with "as little interference of possible"  and to penalize "deliberate breaches of the law". FIFA Board Decision Law 5, Decision 8, 2009.  It was removed by FIFA.  It may still or not appear in the USSF Advice to Referees but I haven't been able to find a copy easily downloadable.  In any case, the two pieces seem to be in conflict because "deliberate" (in advice) may override the word "careless" (which is in the Law which is a superior governing document).  There's also a wide range of dispute out there over what the word "trifling" means from having any impact on the match to anything which is not deliberate.

So I don't really blame parents here and reading the Laws is not going to be particularly helpful with this concept.  The Laws are vague and ambiguous and sometimes are in direct conflict with the way the game is being refereed (such as the usage of the word "MUST" for throwins which unlike trifling does not allow a broad scope for interpretation).  Now we can argue that the Laws are "living document" filled with "penumbras" and "evolving concepts" and shouldn't be "strictly interpreted" but that's part of the problem....parents shouldn't have to hire constitutional lawyers to interpret the Laws, and referees shouldn't have such a broad discretion where one ref is calling everything and another ref is basically letting the players have at and willfully take each other down "letting them play".  This isn't just a parent problem....this isn't just a referee problem....this is a Laws problem and the soccer orgs are partially responsible. 

I'll go further and venture this is even a [minor] reason why soccer doesn't catch on in the US, particularly in red states....Americans have a strong sense of "fairness" in sport and don't like it when their sports are subject to the whims of officials.


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> ......For my 2 cents, let's elevate Surfref and have him develop guidance for the orgs.


No way, not me. There are excellent trained referee instructors out there to teach this stuff.  They taught me and continue to teach me.  The education already exists, but not all referees utilize it.  Go to a couple of the RPD sessions and you will get some very good and advanced training.  Instead of going to the minimum 5 referee association training sessions, go to 10-12 sessions.  As questions and ask for feedback after games and at halftime.  I always ask for feedback after a game even from new referees, because they may notice something basic I can improve on.  

I think part of the problem is that a lot of referees just do the bare minimum when it comes to training and learning their craft.  I would guess by the number of referees that I see at the monthly referee meetings/training and RPD training that at best 50 percent of referees only attend the minimal number of meetings, never open a LOTG book except at a meeting, do not attend RPD and as quickly as possible click their way through the once a year online training.  This group of referees are the one's that Cal South and US Soccer need to find a way to motivate and train.


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## jpeter (Sep 26, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Agree with you on advantage but disagree with you on "trifling".  As I've said before, the problem isn't with the refs or spectators here, but with the Laws and the guidance for how the game is to be interpreted.  IIRC, the word "trifling" doesn't appear in the Laws.  To be a foul it has to be careless, reckless or use excess force. Law 12.1.  A careless foul is either "when a player shows lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge" or "acts without precaution". Law 12.1  That's a VERY expansive definition.  Trifling used to be included as a clarifying decision to Law 5 as advice to FIFA to referees.  The clarification provided that referees should stop the game as with "as little interference of possible"  and to penalize "deliberate breaches of the law". FIFA Board Decision Law 5, Decision 8, 2009.  It was removed by FIFA.  It may still or not appear in the USSF Advice to Referees but I haven't been able to find a copy easily downloadable.  In any case, the two pieces seem to be in conflict because "deliberate" (in advice) may override the word "careless" (which is in the Law which is a superior governing document).  There's also a wide range of dispute out there over what the word "trifling" means from having any impact on the match to anything which is not deliberate.
> 
> So I don't really blame parents here and reading the Laws is not going to be particularly helpful with this concept.  The Laws are vague and ambiguous and sometimes are in direct conflict with the way the game is being refereed (such as the usage of the word "MUST" for throwins which unlike trifling does not allow a broad scope for interpretation).  Now we can argue that the Laws are "living document" filled with "penumbras" and "evolving concepts" and shouldn't be "strictly interpreted" but that's part of the problem....parents shouldn't have to hire constitutional lawyers to interpret the Laws, and referees shouldn't have such a broad discretion where one ref is calling everything and another ref is basically letting the players have at and willfully take each other down "letting them play".  This isn't just a parent problem....this isn't just a referee problem....this is a Laws problem and the soccer orgs are partially responsible.
> 
> I'll go further and venture this is even a [minor] reason why soccer doesn't catch on in the US, particularly in red states....Americans have a strong sense of "fairness" in sport and don't like it when their sports are subject to the whims of officials.


I volunteered refereeing until my kids started playing club at U9 and I found the rules to be difficult to interpret and apply in practice some of the time.  Youth soccer is difficult but basketball I think we ever harder for me to keep up although the rules where easier to apply for me.

After seeing my kids play in all these different leagues and HS I precieve there is a difference in the way the games are called depending on age and league.

For example,  high school seems to "let them play" more so vs regular club.  Ussda doesn't let them play as much, more fouls called but not necessary more cards as compared to HS.   Regular Club seems like a mix with some cards that come out quicker so i dunno hard to see a Rhyme or Reason why I perceived there's a difference?


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## futboldad1 (Sep 26, 2018)

younothat said:


> /
> 
> The "golden" league or tournament Expectation;  Hey we play in XYZ league so the coaches, fields, and refs are better than ABC league where we used to play never mind the coaches, fields, and refs are mostly the same but they have that "golden" patch that servers as a reminder that the expectations are greater.


 You absolutely nailed it with the above. And the same two or three posters pipe up in this exact way on every thread!

Great contributions, as usual, from @Surfref

I also think the thread starter P Spacey has made some really good points, and I especially agree with the sentiment regarding trifling matters.

But fellow parents, PLEASE stop shouting at refs. In fact, just sit there and enjoy watching your kids compete with no "advice" or questioning whatsoever. My kids told me they hated hearing me say anything other than "well done" during games and I've been mostly mute on the sideline ever since.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 26, 2018)

6 magic words explain why referees are inconsistent:
"In the opinion of the referee"
Since opinions are always differ you will not see consistency in refereeing. Why would anyone need to have Advise to Referees or Interpretations of the Laws if they would be clearly written?
Some referees go even further and Interpret LOTG in their own personal way, which in turn leads to misapplication of the Law. Some just don't understand it clearly enough to apply.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 26, 2018)

Some of the posts have been informative. Some of them have been insightful. Some of them have been funny. Some have been all three!

It’s clear to me that most of us seem to be on the same page about a number of issues:

1. Parents/coaches need to moan/complain way less than they do (because many don’t have the requisite understanding to justify complaining it seems).

2. Referees (some, not all) must do a better job at communicating with everyone and be prepared to show humility and admit errors when they make them (as we all make them, no doubt about that).

3. Referees (again, some not all) need to make sure they are aware of the LOTG and apply them based on the level of play and environment they are in (u-littles clearly different application compared to older DA kids).

4. All of us need to consider having lower expectations and be more realistic about the fact we will not have Mark Geiger officiating our kids’ games.

For sure some of the LOTG could be clarified or made easier to interpret but as that is done by the IFAB, none of us can influence that issue in any way unfortunately.

We all have to keep trying to do better individually and collectively. Our kids are relying on us for that.


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## Grace T. (Sep 26, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> 6 magic words explain why referees are inconsistent:
> "In the opinion of the referee"
> Since opinions are always differ you will not see consistency in refereeing. Why would anyone need to have Advise to Referees or Interpretations of the Laws if they would be clearly written?
> Some referees go even further and Interpret LOTG in their own personal way, which in turn leads to misapplication of the Law. Some just don't understand it clearly enough to apply.



The Laws is some places do use the words "in the opinion of the referee".  They don't when it comes to fouls.  It's "considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excess force".    It then goes on to list what the standards are.  In other words, the referee has the duty to apply the standards set out in the Laws (which are as I previously argued VERY broad), the referee gets to judge whether the particularly circumstances meet that standard, but the referee doesn't get to make the standard.  That's even more clear when you drift into language others than English because the word "consider" implies a duty to adhere to the standard, as opposed to "decide" which is more arbitrary.  I agree, however, one of the things that US Soccer can do to help is to install a more comprehensive Advice to Referees and make the document publicly available to parents and spectators as well.  Referee training should then look to those standards, which should address things like goalkeeper knees up, how to call throwns in or 6 second violations, the goalkeeper smother, trifling, impeding, and shirt pulling.



Paul Spacey said:


> For sure some of the LOTG could be clarified or made easier to interpret but as that is done by the IFAB, none of us can influence that issue in any way unfortunately.
> 
> We all have to keep trying to do better individually and collectively. Our kids are relying on us for that.


I like your post and agree.  It's not necessarily a FIFA thing as in the face of inaction US Soccer can also step in and clarify the Advice to Referees.  But I think it's helpful to bear in mind that the parents, referees, and referee trainers are doing their best with a game system [dare I say?] that is broken.  So it shouldn't surprise us that this situation exists, but we should also bear in mind that it sets up a standard that is pretty much impossible for both parents and referees, and therefore we should have a little bit of empathy for each other.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 26, 2018)

watfly said:


> I think most refs know the LOTG well.  However, what parents need to understand is that individual interpretations of the LOTG are highly subjective.  Spend anytime in the "C'mon Ref" forum and you will realize how true that is.  There is a video of a play in the forum right now that the Refs' opinions range from no call to a penalty and a red card.  What is one refs "careless" is another refs "excessive force".  Refs may also not make "by the book" calls based on a number of factors including age, ability and in the name of game management.  How is this subjectivity different from most other professions? It's not (see doctors, mechanics, attorneys...).  We all carry bias as to how things should be done.  That's normal human behavior.  Refs make mistakes like anyone else and most do their best to get the call correct in real time without the benefit of replay and slo mo which we have the luxury of using to second guess ref decisions.  However, I'm not condoning those refs that come physically or mentally unprepared to officiate game, those refs should be weeded out.
> 
> If refs are human, they would be best served to show a little humility when warranted.  I'm going to echo what others have said about communication.  Refs don't need to become Facebook friends with the spectators, but a simple icebreaker like "How's it going today parents?" or "I hope your kids have a great game today".  Little gestures like that go a long way to building rapport and disarming parents.  It also helps to dispel that "us vs them" impression.  Will this always work, of course not, but I've seen it be effective in quite a few situations.  I know some refs say they're instructed not to talk with the parents, which is particularly good advice when things are contentious.  But seriously, this is youth soccer, I don't think their should be any prohibition on refs exchanging pleasantries with parents.  It should be noted that included in USSF's last published Referee Administrative Handbook was the following number one listed item in the "The Referee Commitment":
> 
> ...


My favorite line right now to parents on the sideline when I am the AR2 is, "There is enough leeway in the laws for both you and the referee to be correct."

Not everyone should talk to parents though. Not everyone is a people person, and the people that aren't usually know who they are, and it would be a prudent decision for them to just not interact with the parents at all, which is fine too.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 26, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> I like your post and agree. It's not necessarily a FIFA thing as in the face of inaction US Soccer can also step in and clarify the Advice to Referees. But I think it's helpful to bear in mind that the parents, referees, and referee trainers are doing their best with a game system [dare I say?] that is broken. So it shouldn't surprise us that this situation exists, but we should also bear in mind that it sets up a standard that is pretty much impossible for both parents and referees, and therefore we should have a little bit of empathy for each other.


‘Interpretation’ of the LOTG has been an issue since their inception in the late 1800s. What’s funny is that some laws have become clearer but some have actually become more ambiguous and difficult to interpret over time! You’d think we would be able to make things clearer for everyone involved in the game but alas, it seems not.

I personally never had a problem applying the laws and my own interpretations were based largely on my experiences as a player. Thus, I applied the laws in a way that I felt would best serve the players and allow the games to flow. Blowing my own trumpet, perhaps that is why I rose up the ranks quickly, generally had high ratings/feedback from club officials and assessors and got to officiate both professional level and international teams.

I do think it’s very helpful to have had a background in the game but it’s certainly not essential and we can’t expect all referees to have played or watched the game for 20 years of course.

I always go back to communication, attitude and humility. If you get those things right as a match official, your life will be much easier and everyone will be more forgiving of any errors or misinterpretations of the LOTG. Those things don’t require any special skills, learning or background. They are traits of a solid human.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 26, 2018)

zags77 said:


> This thread is the biggest waste of time.  End of the day we have a shortage of referees in this country because of the verbal abuse they take every Saturday and Sunday.  Number one rule for coaches to remember is THERE IS NO UPSIDE IN YELLING AT A REFEREE during a game.  ALL referees will miss calls and make mistakes, but they will do it for both teams.  When you yell at a referee it will always be the coaches word vs. the referees and the *REFEREE *will always win that battle no matter what youth league you are playing.
> 
> Coaches, focus on your players and coaching your teams.  The coach is ultimately in charge of the sideline and if the parents see you getting worked up and animated they will follow suit.  If your players see you complaining and getting animated they will follow suit.  Coaches are the role models and set the standards, the only time you should talk to a referee in game is if your players are not in a safe environment.  Your job as a coach is to protect you players and make sure they are safe, yelling at a referee will not help in that regard.
> 
> ...


I once made a thread about the 5 reasons to not yell at the referee even if he is blowing it,
But there IS 1 Reason to yell at a referee. And that reason is gamesmanship.

I have seen referees be influenced by coaches subtly. I have even heard one referee say to me at halftime, "that coach is yelling a lot so I will call a few for him to calm him down". I did not agree with that choice, but, that is what he decided to do. Incidentally, the other teams coach was the one who was way more mad at him at the end of the game because he called a few soft fouls to "appease the other coach"

I have seen a referee give a yellow card when he should have given a red card on an obvious DOGSO outside the box just because there was no reaction from the parents, coaches, or players. I most certainly believe the correct call would have been made if he thought the right call was the expected one. (This was not a uLittles game, it was a U17 DA Girls game, the assessor who was watching ripped into him after the game).

The key to gamesmanship yelling is to not get emotionally invested in what your are asking for. You can act emotionally invested, but don't actually care.
The big difference in my first example was that the 1st yelling coach was, well, yelling. Not complaining. His cries were not emotionally charged, but they were loud meanwhile the other coach was as quiet as a church mouse. The first coach even told his parent to calm down 1 time. The referee was subconsciously more inclined to throw this coach a bone.

When the other coach started complaining, he was emotional, and whiny. And frankly, he was right. However, his complaints were not mere facts (c'mon ref, that wasn't a foul, that's never a foul), they were personal attacks to the referees authority because the 2nd coach was emotional (call it both ways, what about that one over there, how is that the same? That call was terrible) The referee was subconsciously biased against that coach so the bias continued till the end of the game. All because 1 coach was unemotionally employing gamesmanship, while the other coach was rattled and started emotionally complaining.


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## zebrafish (Sep 26, 2018)

I've been an AYSO ref and I fully understand the difficulty of the job. From the sideline, I've been convinced a ref has been wrong on a call many times and only after watching video do I realize they were correct. But I understand this and I don't have a problem with a missed call. We're all human. 

What I really take issue with in our referee population is some philosophical difference in what is considered acceptable physical play. There are a small subset of refs (~5%) who are outliers on what is considered a foul. At best, you have a lot of shoving/fouling that isn't getting called. At worst, games get out of hand and serious injuries can occur. 

There have been a small handful of refs (we're talking a couple) I've seen over the past few years that don't understand that their primary objective is player safety. And there is no useful mechanism to identify and remove these referees -- because I see them back each year. Whenever I see them at my kid's game, I just pray that they are accompanied by a full crew (and they are an AR) and that we're not playing a team that will abuse their lack of competence. My kid just had a game last week with the worst ref I've ever seen-- he doesn't run out of the center circle as a center ref, I don't think he can see well, he is overly belligerent, and he clearly doesn't know how to manage a game properly. Thank goodness he was AR.

I'm fine if the SCDSL comes down hard on ref abuse-- but they also have an obligation to remove bad refs. They do exist.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 26, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> One of the biggest issues I have is that referees who don't know the LOTG correctly become so ignorant and dismissive if you mention, even in a friendly way, a point of law which they are clearly getting wrong. Two examples below; the first one being the most common type of response I get when talking about points of law with officials.
> 
> 1. Player with small part of the front of his foot on the field and most of it on the touchline. AR flags for foul throw.
> "Assistant, he is allowed to be on the field providing part of his feet are on the touchline."
> ...


I might admit to myself that I made a mistake. Very rarely do I admit to the players and coaches around me that I made a mistake. I think it hurts more than helps in the long run for the future decisions being called into question. I don't get defensive though like the above examples. "My understanding is..." "What I saw was...". "Maybe, but we are going with my original decision." Then I will double check on my own with a 3rd party.

For me, the best way to correct a referee if they got the law wrong is to use the WORDS from the laws to give yourself credibility. "Those are the laws" or "check it out later" sound passive aggressive, and weak appeals to an unverifiable authority (The referee is not going to run and grab his book to double check).

Use phrases like: "The laws require whole foot over the whole line". He is at least more likely to remember this adage and is more likely to look it up later. and for situation 2: "The law says it needs to be a DELIBERATE PLAY instead of just a deflection. Kind of like in handling". Your argument missed the key "deliberate play" vocabulary which _should_ ring a bell in most referees heads when used.

This just makes it more likely, not a perfect solution; there are refs that I have tried to talk to in private and they just won't listen, even with the LOTG book in front of their eyes opened to the correct page, he flat out refused to look at it.

There is currently a surplus of lawyers. I remember when I took a pre-law class, the professor showed me the statistic that only 50% of students that graduate from law school get a job that is actually in law. The same can't be said about referees. There is no one to push them to go out of their ways to learn the laws. And I think the new offside law is difficult to grasp for the average ref that doesn't look for it, and the throw in law you mention is an obscure one that no one bothers to educate or test on.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 26, 2018)

mlx said:


> No, that's a bunch of baloney. Yes, there are mistakes but there's also bad referees that take sides. They can be intimidated by a coach, or they can "punish" a yelling coach by having all of his "mistakes" on that coach's team.
> 
> Two weeks ago, opposing coach was yelling at the ref all the first half in a bully way. The ref got intimidated and did nothing. By the second half, the ball is out of bounds by 2 inches and the ref didn't see it. Our coach just yelled "Hey! at least make an effort to run so you can see it!!"; well, that was enough for that ref to call an nonexistent penalty against our team. That single yell by our non-bully coach.
> 
> Refs like that should not be officiating matches, the fact that "there's a shortage" doesn't mean that we must take the bad ones and be "thankful" for them. No.


This sounds like mostly an error on your coach's part. Read my post about "gamesmanship". You have to know how to yell, otherwise you make it more likely that you will consistently be on the referee's subconscious bad side.

Don't blame a human for reacting to abuse like a human. Even I have to notice and fight that unconscious bias that creeps up. And it creeps up all the time. Noticing and defending yourself against that bias is an EXTREMELY advanced mindset for a referee that took me years to develop and it is still not perfect.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 26, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> I might admit to myself that I made a mistake. Very rarely do I admit to the players and coaches around me that I made a mistake. I think it hurts more than helps in the long run for the future decisions being called into question. I don't get defensive though like the above examples. "My understanding is..." "What I saw was...". "Maybe, but we are going with my original decision." Then I will double check on my own with a 3rd party.
> 
> For me, the best way to correct a referee if they got the law wrong is to use the WORDS from the laws to give yourself credibility. "Those are the laws" or "check it out later" sound passive aggressive, and weak appeals to an unverifiable authority (The referee is not going to run and grab his book to double check).
> 
> ...


Some excellent points, thank you!

The wording is important for some referees but I didn’t use points of law wording in my post because the point I was making is that most refs are not willing to listen, regardless of whether you spell it out word for word (IMO many would potentially find that even more patronizing).

As you pointed out (and of course I am aware) it has to be a deliberate attempt to play the ball by the defender for a deflection to invalidate a potential offside but again, I didn’t go into this detail with the referee because he immediately moved into his corner pretending he knew the law. I know from experience that it’s next to impossible to speak a referee after that point.

I guess in terms of admitting a mistake, we all see and do things differently. I would almost always admit my error (if the play hadn’t restarted, I would change my decision) openly and apologize. I would occasionally use your wording and just say, “yes you might be right but that’s how I saw it from my angle” if I was unsure whether I’d actually made a mistake. The admission of an error was always (not sometimes, but always) well received and if anything positively impacted the rest of the game (this is for games involving kids, amateurs, semi-pro’s and professionals). There’s probably no ‘right’ way of doing it; my suggestion of error admission is just largely based on my positive experiences using the tactic.

You’re absolutely right about refs not having anything or anyone to push them to learn the laws. More accountability might help (whether that be an open grading system or something else). Coaches are accountable, at least in the sense if they are doing a poor job, they may find themselves out of it shortly (especially if parents are knowledgeable enough to see they are really not a good coach and push the club for change). Referees are not really accountable at all. Back to your point of a shortage of refs; number one reason why they get work regardless of their performance.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 26, 2018)

IMO, standards need to be created on when a ref  gives a yellow or red  card

Standards on when a coach or parent gets booted from the field. 

Standards on player safety. 

Even If we had VAR technology, you will still find parents complaining.


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## baldref (Sep 26, 2018)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> IMO, standards need to be created on when a ref  gives a yellow or red  card
> 
> Standards on when a coach or parent gets booted from the field.
> 
> ...


There are standards


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 26, 2018)

Okay, let me take a stab at answering the original posters question: "What can we do?" Here is my prototype.
I agree we need some sort of survey or rating system, but there are several important components I think the rating system should have. A simple Uber score would be too generic.
Potential issues of a rating system: Bias, the fact that people are always more likely to go out of their way to complain than compliment, lack of knowledge and experience of the armchair referees, validity of the surveyed, and accountability.

So to solve some of those problems, the survey should be quick and mandatory to complete to fill out the score. Mandatory will help solve the problem of only the aggrieved speaking up. It should only be filled out by the team manager and they should get 1 survey per game. I think 1-10 is better than 1-5, but that is subjective.

Categories:
1) Fitness: This is an important factor that can be judged by the untrained eye to a degree
2)Presence: This is also a good measurement that I would trust the untrained parent to grade me on. It is also such a wonderfully vague word so parents don't realize that this is actually the most important grade they are giving.
3) Knowledge of the LOTG: This scoring area is actually a trap to help identify the bad reports. Any real complaints about missed LOTG will go in the comments section and will include the specific laws misapplied. All the people that just didn't like the refs foul calls/no-call will just put a 1 or 2 in this area and will say something vague and unsubstantiated in the comments.
4) Professionalism: key gauge for weeding out the egos and don't cares. Both for preventative and punitive purposes.
5)Other team's conduct: This is a check on the other teams report. It helps give a "grain of salt" factor to the other report. If both teams end up giving a 1 to each other, I think that says a lot in itself lol.

Furthermore, the survey should be viewable by the referee and the other team. The referee should also be able to comment and say something in response to any accusations. It would also help in constructive criticism for referees that want it.
Also, too many "wild reports" and your credibility score should be affected.

Of course, this rating system will have only a small impact on decision making, but I think it will separate the weed from the chaff. All the reviewed items on Amazon balance out even after the crazy 1 STAR reviews because 1 guy thought his headphones should vibrate. It should be weighted, or at least categorized, based on age level.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Okay, let me take a stab at answering the original posters question: "What can we do?" Here is my prototype.
> I agree we need some sort of survey or rating system, but there are several important components I think the rating system should have. A simple Uber score would be too generic.
> Potential issues of a rating system: Bias, the fact that people are always more likely to go out of their way to complain than compliment, lack of knowledge and experience of the armchair referees, validity of the surveyed, and accountability.
> 
> ...


any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.

if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 27, 2018)

baldref said:


> any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.
> 
> if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.


I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.

I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).

The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 27, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.
> 
> I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).
> 
> The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.


100% correct. Impossible to solve.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.
> 
> I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).
> 
> The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.


I’m not sure your description of tough, take what you get is completely accurate, but I get it. I’m thinking that the reason fir the so called shortage is the ever expanding youth soccer landscape. So many more games to cover. 

Believe me, I’m sympathetic to a point to the fact that some of my brethren are very poor performers. It makes it more difficult for the moderate, good, and great referees to operate. But again, I think the percentages of decent referees compared to the poor performers isn’t nearly as bad as what some parents and coaches represent.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 27, 2018)

baldref said:


> any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.
> 
> if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.


My system takes the bad reports into account. I am sure they will be drowned out and easy to spot. I am more worried about holding the 10% of horrendous egotistical referees accountable as well as some valuable feedback for myself.

For me, if I finish reffing a game and both teams are mad at me. I definitely do not listen to their accusations of my lack of knowledge of the game. However, I do reflect on WHY they are mad at me. Because if I did a better job at _selling_ the calls, then my judgement wouldn't be questioned. That is the importance of the PRESCENCE score.

To me, I do not care about the unqualified persons_ opinion_, however I do care about their general impression of me. To me that is extremely valuable, because we do not referee people with qualified opinions and certified training, we referee players and coaches without any of those things. Improving my Presence would help me manage players who do not care what the letter of the laws say. None of them care about the LOTG, they just care about winning, and we have to find a way to deal with them while upholding the thing they don't care about.


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## sweeperkeeper (Sep 27, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> 100% correct. Impossible to solve.


It's not impossible to solve just no one wants to be the bad guy.  In regards to how refs get treated, IMHO they need to be more aggressive in handling the offenders, the majority of the parents/coaches are good but the remaining 20% need to understand that they can easily be removed from the field.  At my sons games this weekend, we had the opposing coach yelling across the field at the AR (the AR was correct).  The issue got comical when the AR starting to explain her actions by yelling back.  Eventually, they coach got carded but it should of happened way earlier.  

I'm not sure if there was a way for refs to share notes about a team or parent but it might help.  If a ref before a game knew that that team X had parents that are abusive then they could talk to the coach and team manager before the game before it starts to escalate.  "Hey Coach.  I heard we had a rough game last week.  I'm here to have good game but would appreciate it we kept the sidelines positive."

Another option would be for every parent/coach that gets thrown out, that team is fined 100 dollars for the first offense, 200 for the second, etc.  This puts the responsibility on the team to handle the problem parents versus putting it on the refs.  

If there is a ref shortage, the very simple laws of supply and demand would dictate that you need to raise wages, but I'll digress.


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## watfly (Sep 27, 2018)

baldref said:


> any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.
> 
> if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.


I agree that having the league or referee associations supplying some eyes would be much more effective than having a rating system alone.  However, there are simple ways to eliminate some of the bias from a rating system if done right.  If you have both coaches provide an evaluation your going to eliminate much of the bias.  For example, say on a 1 to 5 scale, one coach gives a 1 and the other a 5.  Then you can pretty much disregard either review.  If both coaches give a 4 you can consider those reliable reviews, or any review within a point or two.  More importantly than individual reviews would be evaluating the totality of the reviews.  If a ref is getting a lot of 1 and 2's maybe that triggers a secret assessment of that ref.  The league or association can then evaluate for themselves the potential problem ref and make a decision thereon.   Use the reviews as a tool and not a decision maker to eliminate incompetent refs.

For refs to say that coaches aren't qualified to evaluate refs, is an example of the arrogance that needs to be done away with.  I find most coaches to be reasonable even if they're looking out for the best interests of their team.  Just this past weekend at our DA12 game (no AR's) a ball clearly went out on the other team.  Of course, despite our coaches protest (there was a goal scored off a missed throw-in call earlier in the game) the ref was steadfast with his call until the other coach let the ref know that the ball indeed go out off one of his players. The ref reversed his call at that point.   BTW, other than this ref struggling with the direction of throw-ins on numerous occasions, our DA refs have been excellent this year.  They have been impressively good with offside calls despite the absence of AR's.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 27, 2018)

baldref said:


> I’m not sure your description of tough, take what you get is completely accurate, but I get it. I’m thinking that the reason fir the so called shortage is the ever expanding youth soccer landscape. So many more games to cover.
> 
> Believe me, I’m sympathetic to a point to the fact that some of my brethren are very poor performers. It makes it more difficult for the moderate, good, and great referees to operate. But again, I think the percentages of decent referees compared to the poor performers isn’t nearly as bad as what some parents and coaches represent.


Just last week I did a U12 Presidio game. The final score was 10-8 (ikr) and the lead changed like 5-7 times. It was a contentious game. There was one critical call that I absolutely blew. There was a deliberate pass back to the keeper from 2 feet away  inside the 6yd box that I mistakenly interpreted as a trap and pounce by the keeper, but after discussion with my crew after the game, I realized I was wrong.
HOWEVER, I sold the shit out of that no call. My PRESENCE helped me diffuse the situation and the game continued without much complaint.
Why? Because I had established a repour with both teams, I showed I cared by running and strafing even in a U12 game, I was inside the 18 when I made the call. All my other calls were consistent and I carried the aura around me that I was overqualified for the game.

Both teams came up to me after the game and told me that was the best reffed game they have seen all year and wanted me back every week... Even though I blew a critical match incident. They had no idea I did or they forgot. And that is all thanks to PRESENCE, the most valuable skill a referee can have.

So yes, the rating would be a popularity contest, but winning that contest is an extremely valuable skill set for reffing. Being a referee is 25% knowing what you are doing and 75% looking like you know what you are doing. We are putting on a performance for the players and parents, and I want to see that performance score.


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## focomoso (Sep 27, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Okay, let me take a stab at answering the original posters question: "What can we do?" Here is my prototype.
> I agree we need some sort of survey or rating system, but there are several important components I think the rating system should have. A simple Uber score would be too generic.
> Potential issues of a rating system: Bias, the fact that people are always more likely to go out of their way to complain than compliment, lack of knowledge and experience of the armchair referees, validity of the surveyed, and accountability.
> 
> ...


I like this a lot. Especially #5. If parents feel that they're being graded for their behavior, I think (hope) they may check themselves. 

Yes, everyone is biased, but if you aggregate these results over a season, much of the bias cancels out. If a ref consistently scores well, they're likely better. If a team consistently scores poorly, there may be problems. If the team's scores are posted along with the standings, that public shaming may help.

However, there may be other biases thad don't cancel out (like, race and language and style of play), but something like this seems to be the best I can come up with.

But.... this will only work if some action is taken. We can collect all this data, but if the higher-scoring refs don't get more calls and if the lower-scoring refs don't get weeded out, then this won't help much at all. The trouble is - at least as I seems to be presented here - is that there's a shortage of good refs so even if a ref has a terrible score, you still need someone to cover the games that day and they'll still get the call.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2018)

watfly said:


> I agree that having the league or referee associations supplying some eyes would be much more effective than having a rating system alone.  However, there are simple ways to eliminate some of the bias from a rating system if done right.  If you have both coaches provide an evaluation your going to eliminate much of the bias.  For example, say on a 1 to 5 scale, one coach gives a 1 and the other a 5.  Then you can pretty much disregard either review.  If both coaches give a 4 you can consider those reliable reviews, or any review within a point or two.  More importantly than individual reviews would be evaluating the totality of the reviews.  If a ref is getting a lot of 1 and 2's maybe that triggers a secret assessment of that ref.  The league or association can then evaluate for themselves the potential problem ref and make a decision thereon.   Use the reviews as a tool and not a decision maker to eliminate incompetent refs.
> 
> For refs to say that coaches aren't qualified to evaluate refs, is an example of the arrogance that needs to be done away with.  I find most coaches to be reasonable even if they're looking out for the best interests of their team.  Just this past weekend at our DA12 game (no AR's) a ball clearly went out on the other team.  Of course, despite our coaches protest (there was a goal scored off a missed throw-in call earlier in the game) the ref was steadfast with his call until the other coach let the ref know that the ball indeed go out off one of his players. The ref reversed his call at that point.   BTW, other than this ref struggling with the direction of throw-ins on numerous occasions, our DA refs have been excellent this year.  They have been impressively good with offside calls despite the absence of AR's.


Couple of points.... if there aren’t enough people from the leagues or associations to watch refs, how would there be enough to try to interpret your ratings? That adds more time and effort. 

I said “some” coaches aren’t qualified to assess a referee. But extrapolate for your agenda if you like. Do away with my arrogance. 

You can’t take the bias away no matter how much you think you can. Thats not a negative comment either. How can you be impartial when you care who wins or whom does well?

Your example of a goal off a missed thrown is and proof of a bias. Maybe you’re right and refs were wrong but if your team defended better on the thrown in it doesn’t matter.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 27, 2018)

CSL’s ref rating system covers some of what has been presented here and it’s definitely a step in the right direction. If it was open (available to view by everyone involved in CSL; coaches, managers, other refs) then it would be helpful IMO. I hope they will develop it further as it’s brand new right now so kind of in ‘test’ mode for this season I guess.

@Definitelynotanotherref has made some excellent posts and his point about wanting to know his rating rings true with me (I always wanted to know how I was being perceived by others when I was reffing regularly) and I think this would have an impact on most referees. If you know you are being graded/rated, I think it impacts your performance in the sense that you try to do the best job possible, rather than “using the game as just a warm down” like the ref I mentioned the other day.

A rating system seems like the most logical way to go. If it was open and transparent, I really do think it would motivate referees (and coaches/sidelines if they were rated too) to do better. 

The ref shortage means those poor performers might not be immediately taken off all games but the mere fact they would be highlighted would serve two purposes; one, hopefully it would encourage those refs to try and do better (and have a better attitude) and two, it would give everyone an idea of what to expect going into games. You’d know if your opponents potentially have a crazy sideline and you’d know if the ref is likely to be poor. Just knowing this in advance would likely mean most of us go into the game with lower expectations; we might even then be pleasantly surprised.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 27, 2018)

@Paul Spacey ... Great thread/topic.  Well thought out, constructive and illuminating content by all.  I don't know that we've exactly come up with solutions to the original question, but I do think I understand the problem better from reading all these responses.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 27, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> @Paul Spacey ... Great thread/topic.  Well thought out, constructive and illuminating content by all.  I don't know that we've exactly come up with solutions to the original question, but I do think I understand the problem better from reading all these responses.


Thanks! We’ve had a lot of really great responses.

It’s a reminder that there are lots of knowledgeable people on this forum and if we put our heads together, we should be able to solve problems or at least come up with some potential solutions to try.

The rating system does seem to be something many people are open to and I personally think this is the best solution at the moment to at least have some accountability (for refs, coaches and sidelines).


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## Overlap (Sep 27, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I noticed there are a number of threads regarding refs and parental/coach behavior recently. Here's another.
> 
> Below is a link to a video clip of a recent game I just saw online. Yes, the ref seems incompetent based on this short clip and the craziness of it just reminded me of what I’ve seen every weekend since the fall season kicked off (I’ve watched or coached around 20 games so far).
> 
> ...


interesting post, we're now 4 games in and the ref's have been a bit all over the board so far. Last week our team had a tie game that had what I would probably call the worst ref crew in the first 4 games. Our HC shouted a question, "how was that offsides?" (as a player was clearly in position keeping our play on), to which the ref ran over to tell our HC, one more comment and you're out of here! Seriously, the HC can't ask a question? The ref continued to converse with the opposing team through out the game in Spanish,  I'd care to guess of all the 50/50 calls, our team got 1 and yes, it did change the momentum of the game. I went to rate the ref crew and to my surprise, the rating is nothing more than a star system, basically, a waste of time and no place for comments. Last week we had what I thought was a fair ref crew, tough game however, we won. I had never seen the opposing team treat a ref crew so disrespectful, the asst. coach was shouting at the crew, their TA was incredibly rude, hurriedly signed the match forms and ripped one from the ref and all of this in front of the Ref evaluator! It really was a clean game for the most part, well played, just not the outcome they'd hoped. My point is, the ref's aren't perfect we'll get some calls and some we won't, the players have to deal with the good and the bad. I'd like to believe it's like the teams, they get better as the season goes on.....


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## watfly (Sep 27, 2018)

baldref said:


> Couple of points.... if there aren’t enough people from the leagues or associations to watch refs, how would there be enough to try to interpret your ratings? That adds more time and effort.
> 
> I said “some” coaches aren’t qualified to assess a referee. But extrapolate for your agenda if you like. Do away with my arrogance.
> 
> ...


Correct, I have no idea of the resources that the league or the associations are willing to commit to weeding out bad refs.  But even you recommended sending some eyes out to watch refs.  Instead of just doing it in a random, blanket manner at least you could do it on a targeted and exception basis with the reviews.  This would actually result in a more cost effective identification of problem refs.  I can tell you that with the right software it probably wouldn't take more than one employee to identify the worst reviewed refs for assessment by a qualified assessor.

I never blamed the ref for the goal, I said that was the reason for the coach's strong protest.  I agree completely that our defense should have defended better; although, it was more due to a great glancing header by the opponent.  As an FYI (not that you clearly care) when the ball went out  the last touch was so clear to all the players that our team grabbed the ball and the other team retreated.  I don't blame the ref for the goal, I credit the forwards great play, but there is an element of "but for" causation that exists.

My only agenda is that my son gets the best experience (training, coaching, friends, quality players etc) possible from club soccer.  I prefer wins over losses, but I'll take a well played loss over a poorly played win any day of the week.  I want all the kids to play well, even opponents, but I'm incredibly biased towards having my son play well.

We're all reviewed in our jobs.  The clubs (or at least the ones I've been involved with) ask for reviews of the coach at year end.  My son gets a written review once or twice a year from his coach and a defacto verbal one everyday of practice.  Hell, my business gets multiple Yelp and Google (non-confidential) reviews on a daily basis.  Why should refs be immune from reviews?

I'm not sure why you take these comments so personally, someone makes a comment about Grade 8 refs and you get your knickers in a wad.  I have no reason to suspect that your are anything other than a great ref (although your judgment on the Surf Cup teriyaki bowls is a little suspect, seriously, what kind of meat was that? I'm not sure it was even chicken).  I think this thread has been a great conversation and by far the most civil discussion regarding refs I've seen on this board.  Is anything going to change? Probably not, but it's interesting to hear everyone's perspective.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 27, 2018)

Overlap said:


> The ref continued to converse with the opposing team through out the game in Spanish,


This always amuses me: The boys on both teams are all speaking to each other in English only during the match, the referee speaks to coach and parents in English before the match, the referee speaks in Spanish to the players during the match.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2018)

watfly said:


> Correct, I have no idea of the resources that the league or the associations are willing to commit to weeding out bad refs.  But even you recommended sending some eyes out to watch refs.  Instead of just doing it in a random, blanket manner at least you could do it on a targeted and exception basis with the reviews.  This would actually result in a more cost effective identification of problem refs.  I can tell you that with the right software it probably wouldn't take more than one employee to identify the worst reviewed refs for assessment by a qualified assessor.
> 
> I never blamed the ref for the goal, I said that was the reason for the coach's strong protest.  I agree completely that our defense should have defended better; although, it was more due to a great glancing header by the opponent.  As an FYI (not that you clearly care) when the ball went out  the last touch was so clear to all the players that our team grabbed the ball and the other team retreated.  I don't blame the ref for the goal, I credit the forwards great play, but there is an element of "but for" causation that exists.
> 
> ...


My panties don’t get wadded too tight
Mostly I’m responding with a bit of facetious sarcasm. I might be a bit over reactive to the people that make comments about how the referees made them lose, or let their kid get hurt, or blah blah blah referees suck. But hey, nobody’s perfect, especially referees


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## jpeter (Sep 27, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> This always amuses me: The boys on both teams are all speaking to each other in English only during the match, the referee speaks to coach and parents in English before the match, the referee speaks in Spanish to the players during the match.


My son is in his 3rd year of Spanish now, he had that happen to him where the coach or refs revert to speaking Spanish because they can explain themselfs much better or quicker in their native language.  He was seriously frustrated before not being able to understand or communicate more  but has learned to speak and understand pretty well now, will surprise some when he answers back since the book doesn't match the cover.


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## MWN (Sep 27, 2018)

With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:

1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
3) A referee at the typical league/youth level is asked to referee between 3 to 5 games.  Stamina on game 1 changes by the time we get to game 3 or 4 or 5. 
4) Exposing younger referees to ratings would create a negative impact that would definitely make it harder to swell the ranks.

With regard to the thought experiment of weeding out certain referees its been underway for years but we have a problem, which is numbers are too low because of bad behavior.

I think most of you are seriously missing the point when it comes to youth soccer.  We basically have 2 levels: Elite (DA/ECNL/ODP) and everybody else.  This is supposed to be fun.  Flight 3, Flight 2, Flight 1, Discovery, Bronze, Silver, Silver-Elite, Gold Premiere, AA-C, AA-A, etc., are all just advanced forms of recreational soccer.  We are trying to create an environment where young people want to play soccer and hopefully, we find a 10 or 20 young people that have what it takes to go pro.  Everybody else is supposed to just be having fun, getting exercise, learning life lesson about competition, spending times with family and friends, maybe getting seen by a college coach, all while playing soccer in MEANINGLESS games.

Whether the referee is good or bad, whether the coach is a screamer or passive spectator, whether the parents shout positive encouragement or are world-class A-holes all play into a single factor ... did the kids have fun playing a meaningless youth soccer game.  That's it.

Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association.  Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association.  The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games.  The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level.  The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.

On behalf of every single referee, I implore you to just stop.  SHUT UP.  If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.  YOU PARENTS are ruing our chances to create better referees.  Please stop.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 27, 2018)

MWN said:


> With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:
> 
> 1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
> 2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
> ...


You make some fair points and nobody would disagree with you that parents (and coaches to an extent) need to learn to shut up and not throw in flippant, uneducated soccer comments just because they feel they have a right to be obnoxious. I also agree with you that most youth soccer games are essentially meaningless (in the sense that they are not the World Cup, they are just about helping young people develop on and off the field). All of us are sometimes guilty of placing too much value on a kids' soccer game.

That said, I have a different view to you on the potential rating system. Most of us are rated/reviewed in our lives and often by people who are not experts in our field. We all get to rate our Uber drivers, despite many of us being poor drivers ourselves (the standard of driving in LA is horrendous, why does nobody use their blinkers?!) but we rate the drivers on their attitude, friendliness and ability to get us safely from A-to-B in a clean, safe car. Most of us are not chefs, yet we rate restaurants on Yelp. Very few of us are hoteliers, yet we rate hotels on Expedia. 

Parents should clearly have no input in terms of a referee rating system but having the coaches rate the refs (and vice-versa along with rating the sidelines/parents also) would be a positive step IMO. Transparency is almost always a positive thing; let's face it, we don't have enough of it in many areas of life, especially things like politics (I'm not wading into that sh** though!)

A single rating (or even a small number of ratings) can always be suspect and there will be bias involved. Yes, some coaches would lie and rate refs badly (perhaps it would also happen the other way around) but ultimately over time, with lots of ratings, you are going to get an average. Even if coaches cannot rate referees on the LOTG (because they don't understand them), they can rate on communication and player safety relatively objectively.

Your point about young referees not being rated seems like a fair one although I personally don't agree that it would be negative and deter refs from officiating just because they might get a low rating from time to time. Young refs have already been rated or graded for many years via school so they have been exposed to good and bad ratings. 

At my club, we rate our young players after each game (they are not rated on performance, skills, tricks or any of that stuff; they are rated solely on their effort and attitude towards teammates, opponents and match officials) and it has been extremely positive since we introduced it. In fact, it has been a hugely beneficial contributor towards promoting behavior change and attitude improvement, things we really focus on with our young players.

I guess my main thought is that an open, transparent rating system where everyone is essentially being assessed/rated (coaches, refs, parents) could only be a positive thing overall. That's how I see it from my perspective anyway; of course, not everyone will agree.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 27, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> (the standard of driving in LA is horrendous, why does nobody use their blinkers?!)


Answer:  Because if you put your blinker on to change lanes, all the a-holes behind you speed up and block you off.  When I change lanes on the freeway, the drivers behind me are kept on a strict "need to know" basis.  #LAblinkerConfidential


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## watfly (Sep 27, 2018)

MWN said:


> With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:
> 
> 1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
> 2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
> ...


I don't think anyone is proposing that coaches decide whether or not a ref should be given the boot.  Only a qualified assessor should make that decision, but its impossible for an assessor to cover all the refs, nor do the majority of refs need to be evaluated.    Coach reviews, taken with with the right amount of professional skepticism, would be a useful tool for identifying refs that may need to be investigated.

I appreciate that you're probably using the term "meaningless" to make a point, but its very troubling that someone who is paid to do a job would approach the job as if its outcome was meaningless.  (See prior post in this thread where a college ref considered a youth game a "warm down").  Do parents overreact and fail to put things in perspective, absolutely.   But the games aren't completely without meaning to the ones involved.   Could you imagine if our coaches took the approach that the games are meaningless?

My son plays DA, so what, that doesn't mean he is entitled to a more competent ref then his peers in Presidio.  That would be the height of arrogance to have that attitude.  Everyone regardless of age and level deserve very competent refs.


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## MWN (Sep 27, 2018)

watfly said:


> I don't think anyone is proposing that coaches decide whether or not a ref should be given the boot.  Only a qualified assessor should make that decision, but its impossible for an assessor to cover all the refs, nor do the majority of refs need to be evaluated.    Coach reviews, taken with with the right amount of professional skepticism, would be a useful tool for identifying refs that may need to be investigated.
> 
> I appreciate that you're probably using the term "meaningless" to make a point, but its very troubling that someone who is paid to do a job would approach the job as if its outcome was meaningless.  (See prior post in this thread where a college ref considered a youth game a "warm down").  Do parents overreact and fail to put things in perspective, absolutely.   But the games aren't completely without meaning to the ones involved.   Could you imagine if our coaches took the approach that the games are meaningless?
> 
> My son plays DA, so what, that doesn't mean he is entitled to a more competent ref then his peers in Presidio.  That would be the height of arrogance to have that attitude.  Everyone regardless of age and level deserve very competent refs.


I respectfully disagree.  Kids in the DA are entitled to referees that are more competent than his peers playing in Presidio AA-C and kids playing Presidio AA-A should get slightly more competent referees than the AA-C kids, and olders should get more competent referees than youngers.  College referees should be more competent than HS and FIFA World Cup referees should be the most competent.

The above doesn't mean that referees should not do their best, only that "their best" may not be good enough for the higher levels.  Take me for example.  I'm older and fatter than the average 25 year old referee (half my age).  We may have the same knowledge, but that 25 year old has far more stamina than I do given my love of beer and steak.  So, I don't referee U15+ boys because I can't keep up.  I prefer to referee U9 or U7 because I can keep up and my style works well with keeping the sidelines in order.  My assignor gets pissed because he knows I can control the coaches and sidelines with the best of them, but I don't want to referee those games that I believe I'm physically unfit for.  So what happens is some of those games get referees that have less experience but are fitter.  No problem for me, I avoid parents complaining that their referee had a beer belly and couldn't chase down a 17 year old speedster, and they get a younger kid with the fitness but may not have the game management skill due to age/experience.

The games are meaningless in the grand scheme.  The games exist purely for fun and development.  We won't find a cure for world hunger, won't cure cancer, won't win a World Cup prize of millions, and basically won't get anything out of these youth soccer games but a diversion for a few hours.  Parents and coaches that are taking these children soccer games too seriously are Idiots with a capital "I".


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## watfly (Sep 27, 2018)

MWN said:


> I respectfully disagree.  Kids in the DA are entitled to referees that are more competent than his peers playing in Presidio AA-C and kids playing Presidio AA-A should get slightly more competent referees than the AA-C kids, and olders should get more competent referees than youngers.  College referees should be more competent than HS and FIFA World Cup referees should be the most competent.
> 
> The above doesn't mean that referees should not do their best, only that "their best" may not be good enough for the higher levels.  Take me for example.  I'm older and fatter than the average 25 year old referee (half my age).  We may have the same knowledge, but that 25 year old has far more stamina than I do given my love of beer and steak.  So, I don't referee U15+ boys because I can't keep up.  I prefer to referee U9 or U7 because I can keep up and my style works well with keeping the sidelines in order.  My assignor gets pissed because he knows I can control the coaches and sidelines with the best of them, but I don't want to referee those games that I believe I'm physically unfit for.  So what happens is some of those games get referees that have less experience but are fitter.  No problem for me, I avoid parents complaining that their referee had a beer belly and couldn't chase down a 17 year old speedster, and they get a younger kid with the fitness but may not have the game management skill due to age/experience.
> 
> The games are meaningless in the grand scheme.  The games exist purely for fun and development.  We won't find a cure for world hunger, won't cure cancer, won't win a World Cup prize of millions, and basically won't get anything out of these youth soccer games but a diversion for a few hours.  Parents and coaches that are taking these children soccer games too seriously are Idiots with a capital "I".


I completely agree that refs should be assigned based on level of complexity and required fitness.  However, I don't believe that an outcome of a DA game is anymore or less meaningful than a Presidio game and that refs shouldn't be assigned on that basis for youth soccer.


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## JCM (Sep 28, 2018)

watfly said:


> I completely agree that refs should be assigned based on level of complexity and required fitness.  However, I don't believe that an outcome of a DA game is anymore or less meaningful than a Presidio game and that refs shouldn't be assigned on that basis for youth soccer.





MWN said:


> With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:
> 
> 
> Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association.  Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association.  The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games.  The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level.  The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.
> ...


You took the words out of my mouth.  These games really do mean nothing.  I've got one kid that's DA, the other is in the lowest league in town.  They both want to win, but they also both move on with their lives right after the game as do their teammates.  

If you are a parent and you are this vested in the outcome of their game you are ruining it for them. Read the thread about parents whose kids have quit. I guarantee some of those kids stopped playing because Mom and/or Dad cared more about it than them, put too much pressure on them and/or embarrassed them with their behavior. If you say anything, say "I loved watching you play" and let them succeed or fail on their own. Yelling at a ref or critiquing their game isn't supporting them.


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## Surfref (Sep 28, 2018)

sweeperkeeper said:


> .......I'm not sure if there was a way for refs to share notes about a team or parent but it might help.  If a ref before a game knew that that team X had parents that are abusive then they could talk to the coach and team manager before the game before it starts to escalate.  "Hey Coach.  I heard we had a rough game last week.  I'm here to have good game but would appreciate it we kept the sidelines positive."
> 
> Another option would be for every parent/coach that gets thrown out, that team is fined 100 dollars for the first offense, 200 for the second, etc.  This puts the responsibility on the team to handle the problem parents versus putting it on the refs.
> 
> If there is a ref shortage, the very simple laws of supply and demand would dictate that you need to raise wages, but I'll digress.


Referees do talk about the teams (players, coaches and spectators) that we have problems with and also the good ones.  I was at a referee meeting last night and I walked up on four referees talking about a team (coach and spectators) that they had problems with recently.  I asked what club they were talking about and they said Temecula United.  I said, "Let me guess, G15?" and the other ref said, "We have all had problems with that coach and the parents."  As we talked we all realized we have had problems with spectators from Rebels, Slammers and Pats over the past six months. Rebels was the only club of the three that I have not had problems with.  So far this fall, I have had no problems with the SDDA/Presidio teams, but have had problems with the SCDSL and ECNL teams.  I have some CSL games this weekend, so hopefully I do not have problems with them. 

I am all for fining clubs when a coach or spectator is ejected. But, who is going to collect the money, where should that money go, would there be an appeal process?  The Cal South leagues (CSL, Presidio, SCDSL, ECNL, DPL, DA) would need to work together and we all know that will never happen.  Cal South would have to be the organization to collect the fine.

As for the referee shortage.  At the meeting last night they asked all referees with 10+ years of experience to stand up.  About 50 refs stood up.  Then they asked all refs 50 years old and older to sit down.  That left 6 referees standing.  That really shows what the problem is, not enough young experienced referees.  I have heard that the attrition rate of new referees is 70 percent quit within the first two years.  So, there are not enough young referees in the pipeline to replace the aging referees.  Just sit there and enjoy the game and stop yelling at the referee, and maybe we will get more of these young referees to stick around and get experience.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

JCM said:


> You took the words out of my mouth.  These games really do mean nothing.  I've got one kid that's DA, the other is in the lowest league in town.  They both want to win, but they also both move on with their lives right after the game as do their teammates.
> 
> If you are a parent and you are this vested in the outcome of their game you are ruining it for them. Read the thread about parents whose kids have quit. I guarantee some of those kids stopped playing because Mom and/or Dad cared more about it than them, put too much pressure on them and/or embarrassed them with their behavior. If you say anything, say "I loved watching you play" and let them succeed or fail on their own. Yelling at a ref or critiquing their game isn't supporting them.


This!

My son has been on teams with parents who care more about the outcomes of games than their kids' wellbeing. We had a game in Lancaster early on where the reffing was bad and the other team played kick ball and we got our butts handed to us and the parents (most of whom had never played soccer) surrounded our coach after the game demanding answers as to why we didn't boot the ball up to our star striker and blah, blah, blah. During this very serious parent meeting, the kids were over by the bathrooms playing "three flags up" and having a blast. The game was already in the past for them. It was the parents that were teaching the kids to cling to bad outcomes. The kids didn't give a sh--.

Another example, also early on. We played a team that - some parents suspected - had an over-age player. A few days later, some of the parents got together to see what they could do to lodge a protest. One of the other parent's kids asked what they were talking about. His dad went into a long thing, "you remember that huge kid that ran over everyone and scored all those goals...? We think he may be too old, blah, blah, blah." The kid was like, "Which game was that again?" The kids don't give a sh--.

And they shouldn't.

I know it's hard to resist getting caught up in "fan culture" because that's how our parents were (usually), but the more my son plays and the better he does, the more clear it is to me that the outcomes of these games do not matter at all. What matters is what you learn while playing.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 28, 2018)

focomoso said:


> That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.


that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while


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## watfly (Sep 28, 2018)

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc).   And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well.  The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline.  After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game.   That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine.  Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs.  I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).


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## baldref (Sep 28, 2018)

watfly said:


> I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc).   And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well.  The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline.  After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game.   That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine.  Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs.  I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).


In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc. 

And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 28, 2018)

watfly said:


> I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc).   And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well.  The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline.  After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game.   That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine.  Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs.  I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).


Keeping records, collating them and having someone analyze them is pretty straight forward in this age of technology and as a previous poster mentioned, it could be done by just one person.

Using an app and filling out the details after a game would take all of 30 seconds for refs and coaches. If there is a standardized rating system then everyone should be rated (coaches, refs, sidelines).

The only way it will come about is if there is enough will and desire on the part of leagues and ref associations to drive change and improvement. Right now, I don’t know if that will is there.

It would be interesting to see if we all (parents, coaches, club representatives) could push it along with some encouragement and pressure on the relevant leagues and associations. One thing I’ve noticed in my 6 years here in SoCal is that group pressure tends to get its way more often than not.


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## jpeter (Sep 28, 2018)

WELP  ratings like Yelp but has to be both or three ways: coach, refs, spectactors and would like to see the players be able to provide some feedback.   If a quiz or some kind of knowledge qualifications would have to be passed before a spectator rating was accepted maybe that would keep them more honest or accurate.


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## End of the Line (Sep 28, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while


My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin.  Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times.  These refs are ruining our children's lives.  I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9. 

If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend.  Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.


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## Banana Hammock (Sep 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> As for the referee shortage.  At the meeting last night they asked all referees with 10+ years of experience to stand up.  About 50 refs stood up.  Then they asked all refs 50 years old and older to sit down.  That left 6 referees standing.  That really shows what the problem is, not enough young experienced referees.  I have heard that the attrition rate of new referees is 70 percent quit within the first two years.  So, there are not enough young referees in the pipeline to replace the aging referees.  Just sit there and enjoy the game and stop yelling at the referee, and maybe we will get more of these young referees to stick around and get experience.


  Here is some first hand experience.  I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year.  His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day.  He never went back after first day.  I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs.  I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely.  One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not.  The moral of the story is you reap what you sow.  Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past.  Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.


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## Surfref (Sep 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc.
> 
> And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....


Dang, you beat me too it.  I was going to mention the same thing.  I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league.  When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment.  I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers.  I also comment on bad field conditions.  I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.


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## Surfref (Sep 28, 2018)

Banana Hammock said:


> Here is some first hand experience.  I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year.  His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day.  He never went back after first day.  I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs.  I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely.  One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not.  The moral of the story is you reap what you sow.  Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past.  Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.


It is really simple, ADULTS SHOULD NEVER YELL AT YOUTH REFEREES. That really makes me sad that a bunch of adults thought it was okay to show a lack of respect and yell at a youth referee.  It also pisses me off that those adults thought it was okay to yell at a youth referee.  What really pisses me off is that there was an adult(s) referee on those games that did not protect a youth referee.  I have had coaches remove entire sidelines of parents because they yelled at a youth referee and have removed coaches for yelling and disrespecting youth referees.  The adult referees job is to mentor and protect that youth referee.  I really hope you contacted the referee association and assigner and let them know what happened and why your son does not want to referee.


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## watfly (Sep 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Dang, you beat me too it.  I was going to mention the same thing.  I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league.  When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment.  I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers.  I also comment on bad field conditions.  I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.


That's great and good to know about the field conditions as well.  It sounds like there needs to be a clear and tangible system for evaluating the data and imposing sanctions where necessary.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while


Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake. 

I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin.  Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times.  These refs are ruining our children's lives.  I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9.
> 
> If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend.  Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.


You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 28, 2018)

I also think adults yelling at adult referees when there are youth AR's can also affect their opinion of the job and whether or not to continue. I definitely remember vicariously associating with my ctr referees as they got bulldozed over with abuse.

I even remember seeing the ctr get yelled at for not overruling my decision. But sure, those parents can sleep at night because they didn't yell at the 16 year old me directly.


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## baldref (Sep 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Dang, you beat me too it.  I was going to mention the same thing.  I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league.  When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment.  I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers.  I also comment on bad field conditions.  I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.


I do as well. Good or bad, I leave feedback. Last one read: Great well behaved sidelines for both clubs


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## GunninGopher (Sep 28, 2018)

Banana Hammock said:


> One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not.  The moral of the story is you reap what you sow.  Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past.  Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.


If I have a youth referee as an AR, right before the game I say, from the field, "Coach, you are reminded that you have a youth referee on your sideline." Most the parents know what that means. I've never had a problem with youth referee abuse since I've started that. Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.

PLEASE let your assignor know what happened. They will make sure that your kid gets put with an AR that will ensure appropriate behavior and they might be interested in contacting the club to make sure it isn't happening on a regular basis. Let you kid know that most of the time, things aren't as bad as it was. Give it another shot. This is a great job for HS and college aged kids if we can keep the environment positive.



Surfref said:


> When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment.  I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers.  I also comment on bad field conditions.  I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.


I do the same thing and have had the same experience. I actually always leave a comment about the sideline and coach behavior. I like to reward the good ones and feel that it gives more credibility to my calling out the ones that need corrective action.

Usually, it is something like "Both coaches and spectators were great". I put this in the electronic comments and if it was exceptional (good or bad), it also goes in the e-mail with the game card. I've gotten follow up phone calls on these messages and I know one circuit director who forwards good and bad comments to DOC's for clubs.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 28, 2018)

focomoso said:


> Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake.
> 
> I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.


Apparently kids are incapable of flexibility? They shouldn't learn how to adjust to different styles. I tell those kids every time I ref them that when it comes to out of bounds and offside I am guessing. So I implore them more than ever to play to the whistle. I don't know about my peers. I tell them if it is close, I will opt for no call. That is the opposite of what you say the rest of my peers do. So it still comes down to adaptation every game.

And this league is the expection. Most of the time the "bad calls" last only a game. And we all know that common addage about the definition of insanity.

U12 DA has made it more apparent than ever this year that the scores matter very little. With the 1 ref, the subs on the fly, the 2 team rotating roster. It is very obvious that the purpose of this league is development not winning. If the kids are changing the way they play good soccer just because of the unique situation of the league, then they are not being coached properly.

The leagues rules are set up to not punish coaches with experimenting like putting defenders as a winger for a game. Experimenting with different roster iterations. Even goalies. They are not penalized for leaving thre weaker goalie as the starter. Focus on good soccer and don't care about the score or calls. Focus on development.


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## End of the Line (Sep 28, 2018)

focomoso said:


> You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.


I think I captured the point perfectly.  The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax.  Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref.  If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt.  They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".


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## MWN (Sep 28, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> I think I captured the point perfectly.  The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax.  Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref.  If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt.  They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.
> 
> I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".


So far, I have liked many of the things you have said/posted.  The whole ACL thread was a bit entertaining and the science is there confirming a higher incidence of non-contact ACL injuries in one gender vs. the other.  That said, little zingers to a group/class of people are fine, but individual zingers will quickly degrade the conversation.  Consider making a modification.

The soccer rule book is actually called the Laws of the Game.


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## watfly (Sep 28, 2018)

GunninGopher said:


> Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.


One thousand times yes!  Why is it so f'ing hard for leagues to understand this concept.  I'm all about individual accountability, but the reality is that it isn't working.  Leagues, please mandate that each team sits on opposite sidelines with their parents to the left of the center line.  Let the AR's have the right touchline to themselves.  This isn't a magic bullet but it will help with a lot of issues.  This is such simple common sense, and an easy to implement approach to eliminate some unnecessary parent and ref interaction.


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## baldref (Sep 28, 2018)

watfly said:


> One thousand times yes!  Why is it so f'ing hard for leagues to understand this concept.  I'm all about individual accountability, but the reality is that it isn't working.  Leagues, please mandate that each team sits on opposite sidelines with their parents to the left of the center line.  Let the AR's have the right touchline to themselves.  This isn't a magic bullet but it will help with a lot of issues.  This is such simple common sense, and an easy to implement approach to eliminate some unnecessary parent and ref interaction.


and my buff frame won't be blocking your view as i sprint by like carl lewis


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## End of the Line (Sep 28, 2018)

MWN said:


> So far, I have liked many of the things you have said/posted.  The whole ACL thread was a bit entertaining and the science is there confirming a higher incidence of non-contact ACL injuries in one gender vs. the other.  That said, little zingers to a group/class of people are fine, but individual zingers will quickly degrade the conversation.  Consider making a modification.
> 
> The soccer rule book is actually called the Laws of the Game.


Your point is taken and I will consider it, but only because you tend to say good stuff and make the effort to flatter me.  This was an interesting interaction for sure.  Certainly, I could have posted "I respectfully disagree with your opinion.  I think most children will not be adversely impacted in their ability to discern how to best approach their runs in future games if they are forced to adapt to a bad ref in a game.  Refs are just doing their best, are paid very little and deserve a ton of latitude."  Such a response is completely obvious, lacks value and, frankly, shouldn't need to be said at all.  Alternatively, I could have been a complete jerk and said "that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while".  I'm a little offended that comment was insufficient to merit a rebuke from you compared to my response (that got a bunch of likes by the way), but I won't hold it against you.   Regardless, I'm not sure I am responsible for this conversation jumping the rails.  Sure, we both knew where this was likely to go with my first comment, but is it really my fault that people say stupid things and are so serious that they can't take some ribbing?  Maybe I can put the fun back in the sport and also run off the people who make it insufferable.

Which brings me back to the "Laws of the Game".  Of course I know the name of the name of FIFA's rulebook.  Speaking of pretension and an over-inflated sense of importance, did you know that the very first sentence of the rulebook is "Football is the greatest game on earth"?  C'mon everyone.  They're just rules for a game being played by your kid.  The MLB baseball rulebook introduction, in contrast, explains it applies to only to pros and that youth organizations can look to their rules but modify according to their own needs.  How refreshing that a professional sport doesn't dictate how, when and where a 9 year old gets to play it. The entire culture of soccer is ridiculous and too serious, whether its complaining how refs are ruining their children, the title of the rulebook, the incessant need on the men's side for the US to better at a sport in which we've never been good in the entire history of time, the belief the sky is falling on the women's side every time we "only" win the WC but fail to trounce every opponent by at least 4 goals, and with a commensurate amount of style and grace required to pay appropriate homage to the "beautiful game" (another term that should be banned forever).  Relax.  It's just a game.  That ref you're complaining about was doing their best, and that is all you can expect for your $3.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> I think I captured the point perfectly.  The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax.  Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref.  If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt.  They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.
> 
> I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".


Nope. You clearly did miss my point. See my near rant above about how little the outcome of these games matter. Trying to guess how someone thinks from a couple of posts on a form usually fails.

"...they should adapt..."

Right, and they do. That's my point. They adapt to their situation and those adaptations often make them lazy or keep them from trying things because they know they're going to get an incorrect call. 

I seem to have unintentionally hit a nerve and that wasn't my intention.


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## focomoso (Sep 28, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Apparently kids are incapable of flexibility? They shouldn't learn how to adjust to different styles. I tell those kids every time I ref them that when it comes to out of bounds and offside I am guessing. So I implore them more than ever to play to the whistle. I don't know about my peers. I tell them if it is close, I will opt for no call. That is the opposite of what you say the rest of my peers do. So it still comes down to adaptation every game.
> 
> And this league is the expection. Most of the time the "bad calls" last only a game. And we all know that common addage about the definition of insanity.
> 
> ...


I think you may have misunderstood what I posted. I fully agree that the outcomes of these games are meaningless. I said so in my post. I don't care who wins or looses, especially in U12 DA. What I care about is that kids play good soccer and while I agree that they're going to have to adapt to refs their entire careers, we've had refs that clearly don't understand how the offside rule works and when that happens, it affects how the kids play - which is the important part. 

Again, I seem to have touched a nerve and I didn't mean to. This is just an observation I've made from watching a lot of youth soccer. While the results don't matter, the kids don't like to loose on the day (who does?) and they adapt their play to match the ref. If the reffing is good, they will adapt to match that. If it's bad, they'll adapt accordingly.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 28, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> Which brings me back to the "Laws of the Game".  Of course I know the name of the name of FIFA's rulebook.  Speaking of pretension and an over-inflated sense of importance, did you know that the very first sentence of the rulebook is "Football is the greatest game on earth"?  C'mon everyone.  They're just rules for a game being played by young...MLB baseball rulebook introduction, in contrast, explains it applies to only to pros and that youth organizations can look to their rules but modify according to their own needs.  How refreshing that a professional sport doesn't dictate how, when and where a 9 year old gets to play it. The entire culture of soccer is ridiculous and too serious, whether its complaining how refs are ruining their children, the title of the rulebook, the incessant need on the men's side for the US to better at a sport in which we've never been good in the entire history of time, the belief the sky is falling on the women's side every time we "only" win the WC but fail to trounce every opponent by at least 4 goals, and with a commensurate amount of style and grace required to pay appropriate homage to the "beautiful game" (another term that should be banned forever).  Relax.  It's just a game.  That ref you're complaining about was doing their best, and that is all you can expect for your $3.


Sounds a bit like perhaps you’re not that keen on soccer but feel baseball is ‘the worlds game’ instead...I guess it does have the WORLD Series (see what I did there?)...Soccer just happens to be the most popular sport in the world; by a long, long, loooong way. So to call it the greatest game on earth (though not technically correct as that is subjective), maybe isn’t stretching too far IMO.

Hope you don’t mind the ‘ribbing’...


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## Surfref (Sep 29, 2018)

F’ing again!!  Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11.  One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game.  I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job.  If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.


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## baldref (Sep 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> F’ing again!!  Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11.  One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game.  I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job.  If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.


i had a couple of decent young men for my first two. one had the center in the first match and did reasonably well. we were both Ar's in the third match and at the end of that game, lost badly by a sd united team, some moron assistant coach decided to berate the young man. i sprinted across from my line and got in his face. hopefully our center will write him up as i asked him to. i just don't get it. that team played horribly so the ass coach wants to scream at some kid with the flag like it was his fault?


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## watfly (Sep 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> F’ing again!!  Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11.  One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game.  I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job.  If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.


Come work the DA12 games, no other refs to worry about but yourself.  It won't fill a full slate but might be a good break and you'll see some decent soccer.


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## baldref (Sep 30, 2018)

watfly said:


> Come work the DA12 games, no other refs to worry about but yourself.  It won't fill a full slate but might be a good break and you'll see some decent soccer.


I had. U10 7v7 solo yesterday

It was a girls team and a boys team
Really fun game
Good soccer


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## dyzio03 (Sep 30, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I personally never had a problem applying the laws and my own interpretations were based largely on my experiences as a player.


Long thread and I'm surprised nobody brought this up yet. I know this can be a point of contention, but I do believe that those who played the game themselves do make better referees, especially at the higher levels of the game. Like many said before, a lot is left to the referee's interpretation, and having the past context can help apply the rules in a way the players on the field expect it. Totally understand that we don't have enough referees as is and can't make this a condition of employment, and that there are always exceptions, but personally I can almost always tell the difference between a ref who themselves played at a high level and one who did not (both as a player in the past and as a spectator in youth soccer more recently).


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## Surfref (Sep 30, 2018)

baldref said:


> i had a couple of decent young men for my first two. one had the center in the first match and did reasonably well. we were both Ar's in the third match and at the end of that game, lost badly by a sd united team, some moron assistant coach decided to berate the young man. i sprinted across from my line and got in his face. hopefully our center will write him up as i asked him to. i just don't get it. that team played horribly so the ass coach wants to scream at some kid with the flag like it was his fault?


I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW.  Let them know what happened.  Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved.  PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.


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## baldref (Sep 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW.  Let them know what happened.  Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved.  PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.


I already sent the email to P. Didn't think to include Jack.....


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## ajaffe (Sep 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Dang, you beat me too it.  I was going to mention the same thing.  I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league.  When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment.  I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers.  I also comment on bad field conditions.  I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.


Uh oh


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## MijoPlumber (Sep 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW.  Let them know what happened.  Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved.  PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.


Mijo, Bad coach making bad behavior needs to be fined and pay up of get the boot. They need to set the example for the kids.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 30, 2018)

baldref said:


> lost badly by a sd united team, some moron assistant coach decided to berate the young man. i sprinted across from my line and got in his face. hopefully our center will write him up as i asked him to. i just don't get it. that team played horribly so the ass coach wants to scream at some kid with the flag like it was his fault?


JH?


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## baldref (Oct 1, 2018)

his ass coach... or manager.


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## Overlap (Oct 5, 2018)

Okay, I have to post this from last weekend, I'm still laughing....my last email had mentioned the Ref's speaking to the other side in Spanish through out the game right? On to last weekend, same deal, the ref's were nice enough however, several calls you could see neither one knew what the call was as they weren't in view, kind of funny to watch but getting annoying by this point as our team is in control and up 1-0 first half. Their forward gets a break away to which our center defender makes a great block, ball rolls off the right side of the goal, kid is slow to get up, our GK sets the ball to kick it out only to have the ref say it was a goal!!! Everyone and I mean EVERYONE was shocked, players were walking back and the other sides cheers were short as they knew it wasn't a goal. The game goes to half 1-1, second half our team is still in control however, not getting good shots off, several offside calls and after the 3 or 4 of them, our player gets the pass in front of 3 defenders, passes all 3 on the outside and starts cutting toward the goal at about 20 yards out only to get called for offsides, WTH!  by this time the parents have had enough and are screaming at the ref crew, I'm laughing as it was my kid heading to goal and she looks at me and all I can do is laugh and shrug my shoulders. The game continues, I'm looking at my watch and see about 22 seconds left, I'm thinking, well a tie is better than a loss...they get a shot, our GK blocks it, punts it right in front of our right mid, she takes it about 10 yards, makes the cross, their GK is heading at our forward and our FWD makes the best light touch over their GK's head into the net with only a few seconds left! Sometimes no matter how bad the ref's are, you get the breaks, even if they take the entire second half!......PLAY ON!!!


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 5, 2018)

Nothing will change and nothing will improve (on the part of coaches, parents and referees) until a robust rating system is introduced and there are clear/firm consequences for individuals and teams who conduct themselves poorly.


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## Surfref (Oct 5, 2018)

Overlap said:


> Okay, I have to post this from last weekend, I'm still laughing....my last email had mentioned the Ref's speaking to the other side in Spanish through out the game right? On to last weekend, same deal, the ref's were nice enough however, several calls you could see neither one knew what the call was as they weren't in view, kind of funny to watch but getting annoying by this point as our team is in control and up 1-0 first half. Their forward gets a break away to which our center defender makes a great block, ball rolls off the right side of the goal, kid is slow to get up, our GK sets the ball to kick it out only to have the ref say it was a goal!!! Everyone and I mean EVERYONE was shocked, players were walking back and the other sides cheers were short as they knew it wasn't a goal. The game goes to half 1-1, second half our team is still in control however, not getting good shots off, several offside calls and after the 3 or 4 of them, our player gets the pass in front of 3 defenders, passes all 3 on the outside and starts cutting toward the goal at about 20 yards out only to get called for offsides, WTH!  by this time the parents have had enough and are screaming at the ref crew, I'm laughing as it was my kid heading to goal and she looks at me and all I can do is laugh and shrug my shoulders. The game continues, I'm looking at my watch and see about 22 seconds left, I'm thinking, well a tie is better than a loss...they get a shot, our GK blocks it, punts it right in front of our right mid, she takes it about 10 yards, makes the cross, their GK is heading at our forward and our FWD makes the best light touch over their GK's head into the net with only a few seconds left! Sometimes no matter how bad the ref's are, you get the breaks, even if they take the entire second half!......PLAY ON!!!


I have said this before, video tape every game and make sure the refs see the camera.  If you do get a bias ref, hopefully the camera will keep them honest.  If not, then you have video evidence.


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## baldref (Oct 6, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I have said this before, video tape every game and make sure the refs see the camera.  If you do get a bias ref, hopefully the camera will keep them honest.  If not, then you have video evidence.


and more than likely when someone sees the video, they will explain to you that your bias makes you see things less true.


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## TangoCity (Oct 6, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I have said this before, video tape every game and make sure the refs see the camera.  If you do get a bias ref, hopefully the camera will keep them honest.  If not, then you have video evidence.


We video tape every game.  We have captured some awful game deciding calls and some incredibly dirty/dangerous play by "a certain team" (two separate things).  From my experience, NOBODY cares about your video unless it is elevated to an extremely high level on both sides.  Even with all this concussion training that they make parents/kids take before you can play in the gaming circuit, when it comes down to kids actually getting concussions and going to emergency rooms -> THEY STILL DON'T CARE (They = Cal South, CSL).  With the concussion training THEY are only just checking a box for liability purposes.  Keep video taping but keep in mind that nobody (I mean nobody) will give a sh-- about the bad call(s) that you taped.


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## Surfref (Oct 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> We video tape every game.  We have captured some awful game deciding calls and some incredibly dirty/dangerous play by "a certain team" (two separate things).  From my experience, NOBODY cares about your video unless it is elevated to an extremely high level on both sides.  Even with all this concussion training that they make parents/kids take before you can play in the gaming circuit, when it comes down to kids actually getting concussions and going to emergency rooms -> THEY STILL DON'T CARE (They = Cal South, CSL).  With the concussion training THEY are only just checking a box for liability purposes.  Keep video taping but keep in mind that nobody (I mean nobody) will give a sh-- about the bad call(s) that you taped.


Maybe with CSL, but I know that video has changed things.  When my daughter was playing youth soccer her coach submitted video to SCDSL twice which resulted in the other team forfeiting the game and a red card over turned.  In the forfeited game the CR was one of the other team’s players fathers. The match report listed him as the AR.  The video that showed the dad as the CR was submitted and the score changed.  The other one happened when one of my daughter’s teammates was on the receiving end of a fight and the referee red carded both players.  The video was submitted that showed my DD teammate just covering her face with her arms and not punching or pushing like the CR reported.  Red card was removed.  The coach also submitted video to referee associations several times to show poor referee performance and I know of one referee that got some extra education, because the ref was complaining to me about my DD coach submitting video.


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## baldref (Oct 6, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Maybe with CSL, but I know that video has changed things.  When my daughter was playing youth soccer her coach submitted video to SCDSL twice which resulted in the other team forfeiting the game and a red card over turned.  In the forfeited game the CR was one of the other team’s players fathers. The match report listed him as the AR.  The video that showed the dad as the CR was submitted and the score changed.  The other one happened when one of my daughter’s teammates was on the receiving end of a fight and the referee red carded both players.  The video was submitted that showed my DD teammate just covering her face with her arms and not punching or pushing like the CR reported.  Red card was removed.  The coach also submitted video to referee associations several times to show poor referee performance and I know of one referee that got some extra education, because the ref was complaining to me about my DD coach submitting video.


i'm sure it is considered in situations where it is warranted. as for any league not caring about concussion protocol..... i can only speak to the leagues that i work in, and they are all very serious about it. i would assume that is the case with all of them.


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## GunninGopher (Oct 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> SNIP
> With the concussion training THEY are only just checking a box for liability purposes.
> SNIP


I'm a team manager that has had to process several concussions. I can assure you that Cal-South and Presidio care about concussions, certainly ensuring that the rules are followed. I realize that it took a lawsuit and state law to do it, but I believe that the education required has changed a lot of opinions. It certainly has for me!!

I'm not so jaded to believe that it is just about covering their arses.


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## Multi Sport (Oct 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> We video tape every game.  We have captured some awful game deciding calls and some incredibly dirty/dangerous play by "a certain team" (two separate things).  From my experience, NOBODY cares about your video unless it is elevated to an extremely high level on both sides.  Even with all this concussion training that they make parents/kids take before you can play in the gaming circuit, when it comes down to kids actually getting concussions and going to emergency rooms -> THEY STILL DON'T CARE (They = Cal South, CSL).  With the concussion training THEY are only just checking a box for liability purposes.  Keep video taping but keep in mind that nobody (I mean nobody) will give a sh-- about the bad call(s) that you taped.


Last weekend I was watching my DDs college game. One of girls from the opposing team took a ball to her face. The trainer stepped onto the field  but the girl had already recovered and was standing. The ref told the coach that the player had to leave the field for evaluation... the coach lost it. She started screaming at the ref that her player dod not have to leave the field. The game was in the second half and 0-0 at the time so I get the coach not wanting to play down a player for a few minutes but why not just sub her out so the player can be properly evaluated? Saftey of the players should come first. 

On an unrelated call later in the half the coach was given a yellow card.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Oct 7, 2018)

Multi Sport said:


> Last weekend I was watching my DDs college game. One of girls from the opposing team took a ball to her face. The trainer stepped onto the field  but the girl had already recovered and was standing. The ref told the coach that the player had to leave the field for evaluation... the coach lost it. She started screaming at the ref that her player dod not have to leave the field. The game was in the second half and 0-0 at the time so I get the coach not wanting to play down a player for a few minutes but why not just sub her out so the player can be properly evaluated? Saftey of the players should come first.
> 
> On an unrelated call later in the half the coach was given a yellow card.


"Unrelated"






There is a battle between common sense and "rather be safe than sorry" for every head contact incident that isn't obvious.

Isn't one of the concussion lingering effects: emotional outburst?


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## baldref (Oct 7, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> "Unrelated"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


common sense IS rather be safe than sorry.


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## TangoCity (Oct 7, 2018)

When we sent video in, the head of CSL literally told us on the phone that they DIDN'T want to see the video.  They said they have thousands of games every season and that they didn't have the personnel to look at video sent in from every single game and even if they did watch the video there was nothing they could do.  The video had to do with (safety) dirty play and concussions more so than how the ref managed the game.  The only thing they cared about was that the proper paperwork was filled out to report the concussion (covering their butts).  I am glad other people have had better experiences in other gaming circuits.


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## Frank (Oct 7, 2018)

What did you want them to do?


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## GunninGopher (Oct 7, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> When we sent video in, the head of CSL literally told us on the phone that they DIDN'T want to see the video.  They said they have thousands of games every season and that they didn't have the personnel to look at video sent in from every single game and even if they did watch the video there was nothing they could do.


Who sent the video in?

I have to think that they want complaints to come from a club director or someone in a similar role. This would allow a 'first line of defense' against frivolous and ignorant complaints from the general parent population. I shudder to think of what it would take to thoughtfully respond to all parent's concerns themselves. I imagine they would have to take on a lot more staff and it would necessitate clubs doing more work as well.


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## Grace T. (Oct 7, 2018)

Sitting here before my next game watching an all Latino team play in the classic Mexican style (push it up, very physical, lots of elbows) v a united team playing modern English with very pretty techniques (they can head with accuracy, great passing, very fast).  Ref is fit, knows the laws, hispanic, but has an expansive definition of trifling and has let them game get away from him. Both teams ready to murder the ref and each other after Latino team conks kid in the head with a jab from the elbow. Kid taken out for concussion protocol. No card. It’s these differing expectations coupled with poor ref management that leads to these situations. Fortunately the whistle before things exploded.


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## Surfref (Oct 7, 2018)

Last Saturday I had absolutely horrible and lazy parters both when they were in the center and especially as AR’s.  Yesterday I was the center on 4 games and had two youth referees, 12 and 13 years old, that were in their first 6 months of refereeing.  These two youth AR’s did an outstanding job, ran hard and followed my pregame instruction.  All of the coaches were respectful to the youth refs except one and he adjusted his attitude after I had a talk with him.  No spectator problems.  

Today I watched my daughter coach her girls team.  The CR and one AR did a good job, but the other adult male AR did not run and was always 10 to 25 yards behind the last defender and made several offside calls despite being 20 yards from the last defender.  

What really upsets me is that these adult referees are getting paid to do a job, so they should be running and engaged with the game.


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## baldref (Oct 7, 2018)

Thanks for the pep talk. I got one more to go!!!!
Nice to see you today


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## Surfref (Oct 7, 2018)

baldref said:


> Thanks for the pep talk. I got one more to go!!!!
> Nice to see you today


Yep, hopefully your games go smoothly


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## TangoCity (Oct 7, 2018)

Frank said:


> What did you want them to do?


Do a review and come up with an honest finding and report that finding to club.  It was not the first complaint about that team and their number of yellow/red cards equaled the entire rest of the league.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 8, 2018)

Some video evidence may be reviewed. Most will not. The league organizations don't have enough time to get everything done as it is and so they won't spend lots of extra time looking into issues like video evidence from games. Big problems (both teams fighting and potential criminal issues) will of course be investigated but most smaller issues will not, that's the reality.

This is why a referee/coach/parent rating system is the next logical step towards accountability for everyone involved in youth soccer. Let's face it, that's really what the game needs. There are so many people involved in the game that do not have the interests of the players/kids as their primary concern; those are the people that need to be exposed by a rating/review system so that we can continue to improve youth soccer by weeding them out. One thing is very clear to me after a number of years being completely immersed in it; youth soccer is not in a great state and desperately needs improvement across the board.


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> Do a review and come up with an honest finding and report that finding to club.  It was not the first complaint about that team and their number of yellow/red cards equaled the entire rest of the league.



Csl already has discipline in place for this.
20 points = 1 point deduction in standings
30 points = 2 add. Deduction in standings
40 points = auto removal from all gaming circuit and possible forfeit of any games played during that season.

Yellow = 1 point
Red = 2 points
This includes players coaches and spectators.

What more do you want from the league than they already do.


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## TangoCity (Oct 9, 2018)

Caltek said:


> Csl already has discipline in place for this.
> 20 points = 1 point deduction in standings
> 30 points = 2 add. Deduction in standings
> 40 points = auto removal from all gaming circuit and possible forfeit of any games played during that season.
> ...


You didn't read the entire thread.


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> You didn't read the entire thread.


I did read the entire thread my post had to do with your issue with a specific team. My comment stated that csl does have punishment written out on how they deal with teams like this. My dealings with all gaming circuits is they will not listen unless its brought through proper chain of command usually your club representative or doc or who ever deals with the gaming circuit from the club. They don't like individuals or managers of teams or parents comming to them with issues. One reason is you club administer usually knows more about what they want yo see or proper procedure on how to file grievances.  Just my dealings having managed teams in both leagues.


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## timbuck (Oct 9, 2018)

Caltek said:


> Csl already has discipline in place for this.
> 20 points = 1 point deduction in standings
> 30 points = 2 add. Deduction in standings
> 40 points = auto removal from all gaming circuit and possible forfeit of any games played during that season.
> ...


You can get 10 red cards in a season before the deduct a point?  
Although I guess if you get that many cards and have players serving multiple game suspensions, the point deduction probably won’t matter much.


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## jpeter (Oct 9, 2018)

timbuck said:


> You can get 10 red cards in a season before the deduct a point?
> Although I guess if you get that many cards and have players serving multiple game suspensions, the point deduction probably won’t matter much.


Well CSL may not be enforcing the rules and they don't seem to deter anybody so what's the point? https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/standings?SEX=B&AGE=15&BRACKET=0P&YEAR=2018 for example.

The time out after the yellow card or the ban after 2 reds like HS does is more of a deterrent or even the 1 game after 5 yellows in DA but that might be a bit harsh.  At least it's not like DSL where they don't really track them much at all with the so-called coach honor system.


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

timbuck said:


> You can get 10 red cards in a season before the deduct a point?
> Although I guess if you get that many cards and have players serving multiple game suspensions, the point deduction probably won’t matter much.


10 red cards would be 30 points and a total of 3 point deduction. 1 for reaching 20 points and 2 additional for reaching 30


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

jpeter said:


> Well CSL may not be enforcing the rules and they don't seem to deter anybody so what's the point? https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/standings?SEX=B&AGE=15&BRACKET=0P&YEAR=2018 for example.
> 
> The time out after the yellow card or the ban after 2 reds like HS does is more of a deterrent or even the 1 game after 5 yellows in DA but that might be a bit harsh.  At least it's not like DSL where they don't really track them much at all with the so-called coach honor system.


They do keep track if you look at downtown is the only team to reach 20 points over cards and the have had a point deducted off there record. 1 win and 2 ties equals 5 points and they have 4 points.


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## timbuck (Oct 9, 2018)

Caltek said:


> 10 red cards would be 30 points and a total of 3 point deduction. 1 for reaching 20 points and 2 additional for reaching 30


I’m not a math major.  But didn’t the post above mine say that a red card is 2 points?  And once you hit 20 points, you lose a point in your standings?

Or am I missing something?


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I’m not a math major.  But didn’t the post above mine say that a red card is 2 points?  And once you hit 20 points, you lose a point in your standings?
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Your right my mistake a red is 3 points.


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## Caltek (Oct 9, 2018)

Caltek said:


> Your right my mistake a red is 3 points.


Another added measure is 1st red miss current game and next game second red miss an additional 2 games so 4 total for the offender weather player or coach. 3rd red miss remainder of season.


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## MFranco (Oct 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Last Saturday I had absolutely horrible and lazy parters both when they were in the center and especially as AR’s.  Yesterday I was the center on 4 games and had two youth referees, 12 and 13 years old, that were in their first 6 months of refereeing.  These two youth AR’s did an outstanding job, ran hard and followed my pregame instruction.  All of the coaches were respectful to the youth refs except one and he adjusted his attitude after I had a talk with him.  No spectator problems.
> 
> Today I watched my daughter coach her girls team.  The CR and one AR did a good job, but the other adult male AR did not run and was always 10 to 25 yards behind the last defender and made several offside calls despite being 20 yards from the last defender.
> 
> What really upsets me is that these adult referees are getting paid to do a job, so they should be running and engaged with the game.


That is probably one of the things that upsets me most. The fact that they are getting paid and many of them walk up to you before a game and the first thing they say is "do you have your fees?" Then go on to act like they don't care out there and its just a youth game ( which it is but come on.)  I realize people make mistakes and coaches ( a lot ) can be a pain but they are getting paid to be there to at least act like you care. If they make a bad call but consistent with it then I tell my girls to adjust but if they are lazy, cant keep up and more concerned about other things then its frustrating.

For example, this past weekend my team had a veteran crew. They were using the headsets to communicate to each other...sounds like a great idea. However, they were just having random conversations and at one point were talking about the Dodgers. My girls were looking at me wondering who the AR was talking to and I just shook my head. Later in that game the CR called a bogus foul on my defender and when I expressed my disagreement he ignored it so I turned to the AR and asked what he saw. Of course he told me to sit down. At that point I was upset and told him "maybe if you paid attention to the game and not talking about the damn dodgers you would be able to help out the center." Of course this struck a nerve and he turned running towards me yelling at me to focus on coaching and to let them call the game. Officials who can admit a mistake even if there are a lot of them would be more preferred than others with an ego and get upset when you call them out about something that is true.

After the game a parent (who is also a referee) came down and talked to me saying they like the headsets because "sometimes the games can get boring so it helps to pass the time" I just looked at him and wanted to laugh. Maybe next time don't show up and get paid if they just want to talk about random things during the game.


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## GunninGopher (Oct 10, 2018)

MFranco said:


> For example, this past weekend my team had a veteran crew. They were using the headsets to communicate to each other...sounds like a great idea. However, they were just having random conversations and at one point were talking about the Dodgers.


Those comm systems are expensive. I think they're trying to get the most bang for their buck!!

Truthfully, every crew I've seen with them are pretty solid.


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## MFranco (Oct 10, 2018)

GunninGopher said:


> Those comm systems are expensive. I think they're trying to get the most bang for their buck!!
> 
> Truthfully, every crew I've seen with them are pretty solid.


Haha yeah they weren't actually bad but just the fact that they were having those conversations then got upset with me when I called them out on it.


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## Surfref (Oct 10, 2018)

GunninGopher said:


> Those comm systems are expensive. I think they're trying to get the most bang for their buck!!
> 
> Truthfully, every crew I've seen with them are pretty solid.


I have used them and never had useless chit chat except one time.  We always kept our comments to game events.  I was the center in a HS semi a couple years ago and we used headsets.  One of my ARs was a little talkative until I asked him to keep the talk to game issues only.  His useless comments were just distracting and not needed.


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## socalkdg (Oct 11, 2018)

Many mention here that the outcome of these games is meaningless.   Not completely true.   CSL promotes and demotes based on where you finish.  8 team league sees only the top 2-3 teams move up,  bottom team move down.   One game can make a difference.   I liked this at first, but I can now see some of the positives of SCDSL where the club has some control what level they play at.


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## socalkdg (Oct 11, 2018)

Am I the only one here that would love to meet Surfref or Baldref in person?   Makes me wonder if they have done one of my daughters games.


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## baldref (Oct 11, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Am I the only one here that would love to meet Surfref or Baldref in person?   Makes me wonder if they have done one of my daughters games.


I’ve done so many games, it is likely. Picture Howard Webb with a hat and goggles


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## younothat (Oct 11, 2018)

As spectators we tend to like to  "Monday morning"  all decisions and most refs are over scrutinized by fans but what about other sports? 

They can become the story line instead of the game or the players.  In Baseball once a ref gets a reputation can be hard to overcome that 

"How Angel Hernandez is still umpiring let alone the playoffs is unreal to me. He is far the worst umpire in the league. Every year."
https://twitter.com/paulloduca16/status/1049456588732297216

Hernandez had himself an embarrassing Game 3, becoming the first umpire in the replay era to have three calls overturned in a postseason game.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/10/10/under-fire-umpire-angel-hernandez-likely-done-mlb-playoffs-not-reason-you-think/?utm_term=.1f2fdfbe9db3
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/yankees-vs-red-sox-mlb-umpire-angel-hernandez-reportedly-told-luke-voit-after-blown-call-ill-get-the-next-one-right/?src=rss

I dunno but at least MLB has the ability to review & overturn calls and make things right.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 11, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> One game can make a difference. I liked this at first, but I can now see some of the positives of SCDSL where the club has some control what level they play at.


SCDSL benefit: Makes it easier to keep a team together, or a coach/team to stay in your club. Finish 3rd in silver 2 years in a row and everyone's ready to find something else. One B05 team we play jumped to become a BIG club's "Flight 1" team. (They are as much a Flight 1 team as anyone, I suppose. Just looking at the B05 Flight 1s, looks like 8 of 34 teams are dominating.)


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## Soccer Dad & Ref (Oct 11, 2018)

Plus one in favor for instituting a rating system for coaches and referees.  Should be added to the online reporting system.  Of course you can't look at only a few reviews, but like others said, it will become obvious when there are consistently low or high scores.


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## GunninGopher (Oct 11, 2018)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> Plus one in favor for instituting a rating system for coaches and referees.  Should be added to the online reporting system.  Of course you can't look at only a few reviews, but like others said, it will become obvious when there are consistently low or high scores.


The problem is that you have managers doing the game reporting. Many are quite ignorant. They are just parents. It has to be a somewhat knowlegable person doing it. I could accept the coach doing it, but not a manager.


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## Surfref (Oct 13, 2018)

My ARs were good today and the other ref that did a Center as good.  We did get to see a knucklehead Center referee.  5 minutes into his G13 game the ball goes out for a throw in and he calls one of the girls over.  Tells her she forgot to take one of her earrings out and issues her a yellow card and tells the girl coach he has to sub her out.  You don’t give a yellow card for a piece of jewelry and they don’t have to be subbed out, just step off and remove the jewelry and can come back in at the next stoppage.  There were also several other questionable calls.


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## timbuck (Oct 13, 2018)

In a game with limited subsitituiom rules, does sending a girl off to take out her earrings count?
Not talking about “step off and take them out then re-enter”.
Talking about a girl coming off of the field and being replaced by another player. 

I’ve also heard that in the event a player has illegal equipment (ie- wearing earrings or not wearing shin guards) then the coach is issued a warning or yellow card.


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## twoclubpapa (Oct 13, 2018)

timbuck said:


> I’ve also heard that in the event a player has illegal equipment (ie- wearing earrings or not wearing shin guards) then the coach is issued a warning or yellow card.


In high school the coach, rather than the player, gets the caution for the first illegally equipped player.  The coach is responsible for the players being legally and properly equipped and the referee is required to ask the question "Are all your players legally and properly equipped?" before the match starts,   The caution to the coach is because the coach has made an incorrect representation to the referee.   The second and subsequent players on the same team with illegal equipment get cautions. 

The HS referee association here in OC makes it a point of emphasis in preseason referee training that we should be proactive in trying to avoid the need to caution a coach for a player's illegal equipment by informally checking the players before the game and calling their attention to illegal equipment issues before the game starts.


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## Surfref (Oct 14, 2018)

timbuck said:


> In a game with limited subsitituiom rules, does sending a girl off to take out her earrings count?
> Not talking about “step off and take them out then re-enter”.
> Talking about a girl coming off of the field and being replaced by another player.
> 
> I’ve also heard that in the event a player has illegal equipment (ie- wearing earrings or not wearing shin guards) then the coach is issued a warning or yellow card.


We are talking about youth soccer and the LOTG, not HS rules.  The coach has the option of subbing the player out or just having them step off to fix the problem.  No one should be cautioned for forgetting to take off a bracelet, necklace or earrings.  I will usually just have the player give me the jewelry and when I am near the bench give it to the coach.  I also do this in HS games which helps get me on the coach’s good side.

The referee that carded the player for having earrings in was from San Diego Soccer Referee Association (SDSRA).  It is actually his fault because he did not properly check in the players.


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## exkeeper (Oct 14, 2018)

Surfref said:


> We are talking about youth soccer and the LOTG, not HS rules.  The coach has the option of subbing the player out or just having them step off to fix the problem.  No one should be cautioned for forgetting to take off a bracelet, necklace or earrings.  I will usually just have the player give me the jewelry and when I am near the bench give it to the coach.  I also do this in HS games which helps get me on the coach’s good side.
> 
> The referee that carded the player for having earrings in was from San Diego Soccer Referee Association (SDSRA).  It is actually his fault because he did not properly check in the players.


What would the correct procedure be, if he did tell her to remove the earrings and she did, but then put them back on when she walked away. Would this be cause to issue a yellow?


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## Grace T. (Oct 28, 2018)

Witnessed 4 games in League Cup today.  3 parents ejected, 1 assistant coach ejected and a coach almost ejected (after screaming at the CR in Spanish including some obscenities...just got a warning).  I stepped up in the game after my son's game as an AR because the AR did not show up...did it as a volunteer...still got BS from the sideline.  Both CRs were really fantastic and managed to control the games which were wildly physically spinning out of control and through no malice of any of the players (no dirty play for the sake of dirty play).  

Having seen it this bad now, I have to agree that the coach's set the tone and there's no excuse for the behavior.  1) still think we need mandatory continuing education including a mandatory module on behavior/ethics, and 2) a no tolerance policy if the coaches misbehave.


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## Surfref (Oct 28, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Witnessed 4 games in League Cup today.  3 parents ejected, 1 assistant coach ejected and a coach almost ejected (after screaming at the CR in Spanish including some obscenities...just got a warning).  I stepped up in the game after my son's game as an AR because the AR did not show up...did it as a volunteer...still got BS from the sideline.  Both CRs were really fantastic and managed to control the games which were wildly physically spinning out of control and through no malice of any of the players (no dirty play for the sake of dirty play).
> 
> Having seen it this bad now, I have to agree that the coach's set the tone and there's no excuse for the behavior.  1) still think we need mandatory continuing education including a mandatory module on behavior/ethics, and 2) a no tolerance policy if the coaches misbehave.


I never understood why referees are required to yearly complete online training, concussion training and 5 to 8 hours of referee training a year, and coaches have no yearly requirement.  I would think that coaches should at least be required to yearly complete concussion training, LOTG training, ethics training and some coaching training.  Some coaches get their E License (or whatever it is called now), do their initial concussion training and never go through any further coaching training.  Other coaches like my daughter work for clubs that do coaches training quarterly and push the coaches to move to the next higher license level.  I think part of the problem is that D-C coach training is not offered often enough.


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## baldref (Oct 28, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Witnessed 4 games in League Cup today.  3 parents ejected, 1 assistant coach ejected and a coach almost ejected (after screaming at the CR in Spanish including some obscenities...just got a warning).  I stepped up in the game after my son's game as an AR because the AR did not show up...did it as a volunteer...still got BS from the sideline.  Both CRs were really fantastic and managed to control the games which were wildly physically spinning out of control and through no malice of any of the players (no dirty play for the sake of dirty play).
> 
> Having seen it this bad now, I have to agree that the coach's set the tone and there's no excuse for the behavior.  1) still think we need mandatory continuing education including a mandatory module on behavior/ethics, and 2) a no tolerance policy if the coaches misbehave.


Coaches set the tone. If the coach is a douche, the parents and players follow suit. 
Gotta remove them 
Even if it means the game is over


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 28, 2018)

exkeeper said:


> What would the correct procedure be, if he did tell her to remove the earrings and she did, but then put them back on when she walked away. Would this be cause to issue a yellow?


Sure. Dissent law 12.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> Coaches set the tone. If the coach is a douche, the parents and players follow suit.
> Gotta remove them
> Even if it means the game is over


Spot on. I try to set a good example and thankfully we have good kids and parents so our sidelines (and behavior on the field) are generally good but on the odd occasion that I overstep the mark and get carried away, you can bet that the kids (and parents) usually follow suit. Absolutely no question that the coach sets the tone.

I still believe an across-the-board rating system (for parents, coaches, players and refs) would be helpful, as long as there are clear sanctions for those who step out of line. Whether we will see that in the next year or so is debatable.


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## Surfref (Oct 28, 2018)

I had a coach yelling at me last Sunday.  When I went to politely ask him to not yell at me and my ARs he said, “Do you know who I am?”  I did know who he was and calmly replied, “yes, you are the coach that will be sitting in his car if you yell at any referee again.”  I turned and walked away and he did not yell at us anymore. I am sure he has said that same line to a new or youth referee to try and intimidate them.  When his parents yelled at my AR, all I had to do was look at him and he told them to shut up.  I guess their motto applies, “You’ll never walk alone” to your car when you get kicked out.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I had a coach yelling at me last Sunday.  When I went to politely ask him to not yell at me and my ARs he said, “Do you know who I am?”  I did know who he was and calmly replied, “yes, you are the coach that will be sitting in his car if you yell at any referee again.”  I turned and walked away and he did not yell at us anymore. I am sure he has said that same line to a new or youth referee to try and intimidate them.  When his parents yelled at my AR, all I had to do was look at him and he told them to shut up.  I guess their motto applies, “You’ll never walk alone” to your car when you get kicked out.


After my men's game this morning the CR came to me and asked that I speak to one of our players about his comments about a call made just before the game ended. The CR said next time he would have to communicate with the division coordinator. I said he already had and it would be much more of the same. But I would warn him...


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I had a coach yelling at me last Sunday.  When I went to politely ask him to not yell at me and my ARs he said, “Do you know who I am?”  I did know who he was and calmly replied, “yes, you are the coach that will be sitting in his car if you yell at any referee again.”  I turned and walked away and he did not yell at us anymore. I am sure he has said that same line to a new or youth referee to try and intimidate them.  When his parents yelled at my AR, all I had to do was look at him and he told them to shut up.  I guess their motto applies, “You’ll never walk alone” to your car when you get kicked out.


Who was he?


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## Surfref (Oct 28, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> Spot on. I try to set a good example and thankfully we have good kids and parents so our sidelines (and behavior on the field) are generally good but on the odd occasion that I overstep the mark and get carried away, you can bet that the kids (and parents) usually follow suit. Absolutely no question that the coach sets the tone.
> 
> I still believe an across-the-board rating system (for parents, coaches, players and refs) would be helpful, as long as there are clear sanctions for those who step out of line. Whether we will see that in the next year or so is debatable.


Who will do the ratings?  Is the league going to supply some unbiased person to evaluate every game?  I just don’t see how you will get an unbiased input or any input.  Most refs don’t really care who wins or loses and probably don’t care enough to fill out some rating form unless it is just a 1-10 ranking.


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## MijoPlumber (Oct 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> Coaches set the tone. If the coach is a douche, the parents and players follow suit.
> Gotta remove them
> Even if it means the game is over


You are right Mijo! It’s the coaches that set the tone and should control bad behavior on the field and sideline.


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## timbuck (Oct 28, 2018)

If we are going to rate refs, we should also allow refs and coaches to rate coaches. 
There are some complete assholes out there.


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## MijoPlumber (Oct 28, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Witnessed 4 games in League Cup today.  3 parents ejected, 1 assistant coach ejected and a coach almost ejected (after screaming at the CR in Spanish including some obscenities...just got a warning).  I stepped up in the game after my son's game as an AR because the AR did not show up...did it as a volunteer...still got BS from the sideline.  Both CRs were really fantastic and managed to control the games which were wildly physically spinning out of control and through no malice of any of the players (no dirty play for the sake of dirty play).
> 
> Having seen it this bad now, I have to agree that the coach's set the tone and there's no excuse for the behavior.  1) still think we need mandatory continuing education including a mandatory module on behavior/ethics, and 2) a no tolerance policy if the coaches misbehave.


Mija, Sênior Hefe Presidente or DOC at the club should be setting the rules for his coaches. When no rules or don’t care the coach is just like independent contract mafia capi and their Wise Guy boss DOCs do not care. Sone don’t seem answer to anyone and really don’t care. They really have no one watching them. They say and do whatever they want with no consequences.


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## Surfref (Oct 28, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Who was he?


Not someone that should be saying “do you know who I am?”  He is just another youth club coach and no one of importance except in his own mind.


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## timbuck (Oct 28, 2018)

Did he have an accent?
Or play at a d2 school in 1991 on a full ride?


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## Grace T. (Oct 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> If we are going to rate refs, we should also allow refs and coaches to rate coaches.
> There are some complete assholes out there.


This would be relatively easy to do really.  Just use the Uber system (Uber rates both drivers and riders)  where you numerically rate the behavior of the coach and the performance of the referee leaving room for comments.  Since we can't have evaluators watching the coaches and refs for every game, you just program an algorithm to pick up certain patterns (I've done something like this for my work in other fields)...enough strikes and you send someone to blind check evaluate it...if they find something the coordinators have a discussion with the coach/ref (referring either for additional continuing education or giving them the option of going on suspension)...additional followup and blind checks on those identified to be "problems" as well as a loss of eligibility to move up in the rankings (either ref level or ABCD coaching license) and suspensions for repeat offenders.

The big objection to this is it might make a referee shortage even more severe but I don't really buy it...if refs don't want to do it because of the abuse there are 2 solutions if you look at this from an economics point of view: lower the obstacles by making refereeing a more pleasant experience and pay them more....keeping refs that don't want to be evaluated because they might not be great is just turning away from the problem and we can always exempt the new 8s if we are shy about scaring off the new recruits.  

After this weekend I'm really sold on this idea.  Time to do it.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 28, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Who will do the ratings?  Is the league going to supply some unbiased person to evaluate every game?  I just don’t see how you will get an unbiased input or any input.  Most refs don’t really care who wins or loses and probably don’t care enough to fill out some rating form unless it is just a 1-10 ranking.


You will never get totally unbiased input. But any input is good input when averaged out over time.

Enough ratings will allow the cream to rise to the top and the crap to fall to the bottom. The poorest of everyone/everything will be exposed (including coaches, parents/sidelines and referees). Something has to be done and this seems like a potential step in the right direction. Will it be the ‘solution’ to what we know is a massive problem? No, there isn’t a single solution because the problem is too big. However, any step in the right direction is a good step IMO.


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## MA0812 (Oct 29, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> We video tape every game.  We have captured some awful game deciding calls and some incredibly dirty/dangerous play by "a certain team" (two separate things).  From my experience, NOBODY cares about your video unless it is elevated to an extremely high level on both sides.  Even with all this concussion training that they make parents/kids take before you can play in the gaming circuit, when it comes down to kids actually getting concussions and going to emergency rooms -> THEY STILL DON'T CARE (They = Cal South, CSL).  With the concussion training THEY are only just checking a box for liability purposes.  Keep video taping but keep in mind that nobody (I mean nobody) will give a sh-- about the bad call(s) that you taped.


Late to this thread but I couldn't agree more. Had video of a horrible incident at a G04 Discovery game. League rep at the field and head ref both said we wont look at any video so don't bother showing us or sending it. That option is out.


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## Just A Dad (Oct 29, 2018)

a few weeks back my daughter had a CR who made a horrible decision that made the rest of the game miserable for himself. The goalie on my daughters team took out a player. CR came over to the AR and asked if it was in the box our out of the box. The AR said it was outside the box so the CR sets the ball outside the box and the other coach and parents go crazy. After the complaining he changes it to a foul inside the box and moves the ball then are coach yells you can change your mind because the coach is yelling. The CR goes back to the AR and ask again if it was inside or outside the box and the AR says outside the box so the CR moves the ball again outside the box. The rest of the game the other coach was going crazy till the other AR (oldest of the 3) yelled at the coach to shut up and told the CR to card him. The CR had done a good job besides caving to the coaches on the one call and I personally thought are goalie should have been given a red or yellow card but I think he might have just missed seeing the foul and thats why he wasnt confident in his decision.

last weekend he was the AR in my daughters game and one of our players was taken down in the box the CR said no foul. I agreed with the no call but the girl laid on the ground like most forwards do when they are trying to get a call. I looked at the AR and said bet your glad your not the CR this game and he looks at me and laughs and starts telling me how bad he messed up the last time he reffed are game and he lost control.


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## Surfref (Oct 29, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Did he have an accent?
> Or play at a d2 school in 1991 on a full ride?


No accent and I have no clue if he played in college.


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## Surfref (Oct 29, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> This would be relatively easy to do really.  Just use the Uber system (Uber rates both drivers and riders)  where you numerically rate the behavior of the coach and the performance of the referee leaving room for comments.  Since we can't have evaluators watching the coaches and refs for every game, you just program an algorithm to pick up certain patterns (I've done something like this for my work in other fields)...enough strikes and you send someone to blind check evaluate it...if they find something the coordinators have a discussion with the coach/ref (referring either for additional continuing education or giving them the option of going on suspension)...additional followup and blind checks on those identified to be "problems" as well as a loss of eligibility to move up in the rankings (either ref level or ABCD coaching license) and suspensions for repeat offenders.
> 
> The big objection to this is it might make a referee shortage even more severe but I don't really buy it...if refs don't want to do it because of the abuse there are 2 solutions if you look at this from an economics point of view: lower the obstacles by making refereeing a more pleasant experience and pay them more....keeping refs that don't want to be evaluated because they might not be great is just turning away from the problem and we can always exempt the new 8s if we are shy about scaring off the new recruits.
> 
> After this weekend I'm really sold on this idea.  Time to do it.


I like the idea of an uber sort of rating.  It would probably be fairly easy to develop an app.


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## timbuck (Oct 29, 2018)

Not sure if the rating system would help, but it would be interesting to see how ratings vary based on whether the team won or lost.


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## Surfref (Oct 29, 2018)

MA0812 said:


> Late to this thread but I couldn't agree more. Had video of a horrible incident at a G04 Discovery game. League rep at the field and head ref both said we wont look at any video so don't bother showing us or sending it. That option is out.


That is part of the problem.  If the referee actually screwed up, then the *coach* should show the video to the head referee.  The head referee should provide some education to the referee.  Discussing referee problems with the referee association or tournament head referee should be the coach or managers job.  Parents need to stay out of it, because it usually just sounds like they are complaining because their kids team lost.  I have heard parents say some comical things while complaining, throwing elbows, foot on the line during a throw in, goal kick not taken within 6 seconds, etc...


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## Overlap (Oct 29, 2018)

Okay, I've put several examples on this thread. This weekend the team had 2 games, the Saturday game is now the winner for terrible ref's this season (I think we're now at maybe 50% of the games that we've had a decent ref crew so far) They crew seemed nice enough but, the other team showed up short on players, I give them credit as their team was doing their best to stay in the game until their coach started yelling at every freaking call, screaming for calls that weren't there and then his asst. jumped into the the berating of the ref's, talking trash to our players and then shouting across to our parents. It starts to get really ugly second half, the ref starts calling fouls that weren't there just because he can't take take the coaches screaming, it was somewhat funny until their players took a swing at our player going to goal, red card gets pulled and all hell breaks lose. If the ref would have talked to their coach as soon as his BS started with shooting off his big mouth, it would have saved a red card of an already short handed team and made the game much more enjoyable to watch


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## Grace T. (Oct 29, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Not sure if the rating system would help, but it would be interesting to see how ratings vary based on whether the team won or lost.


I'm sure they would, particularly if it's a close game and the other side believed a bad call decided the game.  But the algorithm could account for that, giving appropriate weight to the winning and losing team's ratings.  You don't need to make the rating public (the plus of making it public is transparency since otherwise there will be accusations of favoritism and cronyism, the neg is that will act as a further discouragement on referees which means upping the fees to attract good people and also acts as a source of corruption as refs could be influenced to up their ratings by cutting side deals).  It just serves as a data point to flag for assessors where the problem areas are for both coaches and refs so they can be blind checked.  I agree video should also be accepted as a data point (submitted by the coach on the referee or the opposing coach for another coach's behavior).  Again, a data point that could serve for blind checks on the worst offenders, since assessors can't be everywhere....not part of a reevaluation of the results of a game or grounds for suspension in and of itself.....part of the obligation to move up the referee and coach rankings could also be time required to serve as an assessor.

I also just want to point out the laws of economics are solid and unavoidable.  It's all risk reward analysis.  A ref has to analyze the neg (time lost, opportunity costs to raise other money, and the abuse they have to put up with) v. the positive (the cash earned, much of it probably not going reported in taxes, and the immigration standards being somewhat lax).  I liked talking to the crew I helped out this weekend (as a last minute volunteer)...we made up an all Hispanic crew....CR didn't speak a lot of English but really great guy who loved the game and who did a decent job with what was thrown at him....both wondered if it was all worth it given the abuse and the amount of money being made...both sad about how the number of refs are declining and many of the knowledgeable old timers retiring.  You want better people, ultimately supply and demand says if you can't force em (like AYSO) you'll have to pay them more because otherwise you are relying on their love of the game and that's becoming fewer and far between.  I can tell you I spent most of the afternoon regretting raising my hand and stepping up to volunteer...I wanted to do it for the kids, to do it for the refs, and to do it for the game....the way I was treated and I saw the CR treated just reinforces to me no good deed ever goes unpunished.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 29, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I like the idea of an uber sort of rating.  It would probably be fairly easy to develop an app.


We have used a rating system in my men's league for years. When posting a score they ask for input on the ref crew. The head of the association if given enough comments worth looking into have often come out to evaluate the ref's and speak with us directly. In many instances the quality of the ref's have improved as well as the relationships between teams and ref crews. In fact I see many of these same ref's officiating my kids games and often we talk as we are now on a first name basis.


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## Eagle33 (Oct 29, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We have used a rating system in my men's league for years. When posting a score they ask for input on the ref crew. The head of the association if given enough comments worth looking into have often come out to evaluate the ref's and speak with us directly. In many instances the quality of the ref's have improved as well as the relationships between teams and ref crews.


You comparing apples with oranges. Many associations would never send inexperienced referees to adult league games.
Youth is very different. Sometimes you get what you get, if you lucky enough to even get a full crew.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 29, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> You comparing apples with oranges. Many associations would never send inexperienced referees to adult league games.
> Youth is very different. Sometimes you get what you get, if you lucky enough to even get a full crew.


I am not comparing, but offering an example to support ref reporting methods which have worked. Therefore providing evidence it could work. You are also assuming in regards to inexperienced ref's being sent or not full crews being available. But I have evidence of inexperienced ref's being assigned to adult games and many a time had a single ref for an adult game.


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