# ECNL Broken?



## Highlander

I'm torn, part of me thinks ECNL is everything wrong with youth soccer in the USA...these aren't all the best players but all the best players that have parents that can afford it...seems wrong to me, and goes totally against the grain of what we should be doing as a soccer nation. The costs are absurd and IMHO its ridiculous to travel out of state for a youth league game....12/13/14/15 year olds on a flight to play a league game? Crazy

OK, that said, you can't deny that it's the best way to get exposure to college coaches...all the numbers point to this out. I always read college coaches complaining about the broken youth system but obviously they are a part of the problem.

So all that said, based on your experiences in the ECNL - what did you like, what didn't you like and what would you change?

The cynic in me thinks ECNL was invented to just separate more $$$ from parents.


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## mlx

No. If not all the best players are there, it means not all the best players go and try out. If they did, they would be. Clubs have aid for these kids.

Also, I've seen kids in ECNL teams from immigrants families in Chino, Bakersfield, etc. If these families can afford it, there's no excuses.


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## jpeter

Marketing is not broken and ECNL is just symptomatic of the bigger picture in the scheme of things.

 You can say the same for some of the other alphabet soup of leagues and sanctioning bodies.

Kids sports grew to a $20+ billion business pre-covid according to some reports before there was a decline in the share of children ages 6 to 12 who play a organized  team sport on a regular basis from 40% to  somewhere in the 30's by 2020.  Market forces at work and youth sports was either booming or suffering depending on which point of view or angle you look at it. 

Disposable income in america is not going to be like once was for some time for families that fueled the boom.  There is another shake up that's going on now with travel restrictions so change is inevitable.

/sidebar
One of my high school classmates recently decided to move out of state so his 9yr old son could play fall baseball.  I thought that was crazy to upend the family for little kids baseball and sends the wrong message that youth sports is that important especially for a 9 yr old.  

My son was tutoring this kid who while good for his age even he thought that was crazy.   My son loved baseball at 9 and was later recruited to play on a travel team which he did for one season with great results.   To everyone's surprise he turned around the next time and told me and his coaches he was no longer interested in baseball, takes too much time to play at the level he wanted. Games are too slowww...and he was spending 20hrs a week between the games, practice, batting and extra pitching practice he was doing on his own.  He then played team football, basketball, and soccer until high school and didn't even miss baseball and still didn't spend 20hrs a week combined so you had time for other things like surfing skating and he was definitely happier so you never know but putting all your eggs in one baskets so young and specializing I don't know not a fan of doing that for 9yr olds soccer included.
/back on topic

For our daughter she loved playing ECNL but it wasn't because of anything but her teammates, coaches, competition, and training. Could have been called girls intragram soccer league and she won't have carried, the marketing and chasing the sholarships was never on her mind. The traveling and pictures well she was into that.


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## Spartan

Highlander said:


> The costs are absurd and IMHO its ridiculous to travel out of state for a youth league game....12/13/14/15 year olds on a flight to play a league game? Crazy
> 
> So all that said, based on your experiences in the ECNL - what did you like, what didn't you like and what would you change?
> 
> The cynic in me thinks ECNL was invented to just separate more $$$ from parents.


I agree the costs are absurd however, most ECNL clubs do offer Financial Scholarships. 

So far what I don't like is their website, it's terrible to navigate.


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## SoccerLocker

Yes it's marketing, but you have to give them credit for seeing on opportunity when DA was formed for the boys only in 2007.

IMO - it's most helpful in certain areas where you can't field more than 1 or 2 elite teams. In CA? Not so much. I always wondered why CA played in National Leagues. It makes no sense to pay to leave the state for league games.


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## EOTL

SoccerLocker said:


> Yes it's marketing, but you have to give them credit for seeing on opportunity when DA was formed for the boys only in 2007.
> 
> IMO - it's most helpful in certain areas where you can't field more than 1 or 2 elite teams. In CA? Not so much. I always wondered why CA played in National Leagues. It makes no sense to pay to leave the state for league games.


You’re making @Desert Hound and his cactus-loving friends angry. He knows that SoCal teams - like everything in SoCal - are far superior to what AZ has to offer.


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## happy9

EOTL said:


> You’re making @Desert Hound and his cactus-loving friends angry. He knows that SoCal teams - like everything in SoCal - are far superior to what AZ has to offer.


CA is the best.....place to visit..


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## SoccerLocker

happy9 said:


> CA is the best.....place to visit..


CA gets plenty of well deserved attention from coaches based on track record.

I just never understood why CA thought they had to pay more to get the exposure they are clearly not lacking.


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## happy9

SoccerLocker said:


> CA gets plenty of well deserved attention from coaches based on track record.
> 
> I just never understood why CA thought they had to pay more to get the exposure they are clearly not lacking.


No doubt that California is the national hotbed for soccer talent.  CA does not need an overarching league to attract college coaches or YNT scouts for that matter.  Top coaches already live there as do the YNT scouts.  All that is really needed (and you already have it) are showcase tournaments where scouts can gather and watch players en mass,  ECNL just makes it easier for them, I get it.  Astronomical pay to play leagues will lay claim to having the best talent, and maybe so, but then again, maybe not.  We will see if the MLS league for the boys can fundamentally change who has access to playing on the best teams.  We will see if the current environment and the future will allow the MLS fashion a true Academy system for the boys, starting at the grassroots all the way up to their 1st teams.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

mlx said:


> No. If not all the best players are there, it means not all the best players go and try out. If they did, they would be. Clubs have aid for these kids.
> 
> Also, I've seen kids in ECNL teams from immigrants families in Chino, Bakersfield, etc. If these families can afford it, there's no excuses.


There are people unwilling to pay more or simply don't have one close enough to make it worthwhile.  Could be politics.  I know some good players that won't play for a team because of daddy ball.  Numerous possibilities.


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## Desert Hound

EOTL said:


> You’re making @Desert Hound and his cactus-loving friends angry. He knows that SoCal teams - like everything in SoCal - are far superior to what AZ has to offer.


I sure am seeing a lot of CA teams coming out here. 

You said no way CA teams travel due to covid...and especially not to AZ. 

Funny how that works. Each week we find out more and more are scheduling our teams. 

Sucks to be wrong eh EOTL? Tell us more about NY and how they nailed it again while you concoct some other excuse.


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## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> I sure am seeing a lot of CA teams coming out here.
> 
> You said no way CA teams travel due to covid...and especially not to AZ.
> 
> Funny how that works. Each week we find out more and more are scheduling our teams.
> 
> Sucks to be wrong eh EOTL? Tell us more about NY and how they nailed it again while you concoct some other excuse.


Once again, I. was referring to ECNL. And go figure, no ECNL. 

I’m sure there are CA teams going to AZ because, as I keep saying, Americans are stupid. Just read some of @msk357’s posts.


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## Soccerhelper

EOTL said:


> Once again, I. was referring to ECNL. And go figure, no ECNL.
> 
> I’m sure there are CA teams going to AZ because, as I keep saying,* Americans are stupid.* Just read some of @msk357’s posts.


Why is your fellow American stupid to go and do online school in a house in AZ so goat can stay sharp and scrimmage legally?  This is win win.  $59 airfare....


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## dk_b

Backing out this year, the best part of ECNL is that it concentrates the college scouts so players from all over are seen by more potential schools.  It worked out for my kid and we did not have to spend money on professional video (or personal time putting together a highlight reel) because the coaches were seeing her live.

Worst part (related to the best):  the cost.  It is really high.  It may be worth it to some and not for others whether or not a kid gets a large scholarship because the calculus is not just financial, it is time (missed school can add up), it is intangible benefit (maybe a low award but admissions assistance) v intangible burden (missing yet another set of school or social activities like homecoming, prom, etc.).

I have two kids who hope to play in college but, unlike their sister, they are not playing ECNL b/c the sacrifice (in our case, it also involves commute to get to the nearest club) is not worth it at this point.


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## notintheface




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## notintheface

oh ffs, the wrong tab.


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## Soccerhelper

notintheface said:


> oh ffs, the wrong tab.


No, you drink too early dude.....  You owned it and I'm sure Dom will just give you a little warning.  I will tell you that is stupid thing to post and not good for my brother who fought his ass off for the country and obeyed LBJ.  Not cool but whatever.  Joke is a joke,


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## dad4

I would rather have regional all star teams than ECNL.
 Let the local club do day to day training.   2 hours in the car 4x per week MIGHT get you the scholarship, but it will tank your grades so bad that you wont be able to do much with it.


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## LASTMAN14

dad4 said:


> I would rather have regional all star teams than ECNL.
> Let the local club do day to day training.   2 hours in the car 4x per week MIGHT get you the scholarship, but it will tank your grades so bad that you wont b.


 Well, then your kids should never to asper past maybe middle school soccer. If they can’t manage grades.That is on you.


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## dad4

Nah.  I am just not in it for the scholarship dreams.  I am in it for the games and the friends.  Ulittle.


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## LASTMAN14

dad4 said:


> Nah.  I am just not in it for the scholarship dreams.  I am in it for the games and the friends.  Ulittle.


Well, then. A different course. And your probably better off then the rest of us. Good luck, brother.


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## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> Nah.  I am just not in it for the scholarship dreams.  I am in it for the games and the friends.  Ulittle.


Best thing you can do is understand that “you” aren’t even in the picture. It is your DD’s path, let her pave it.


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## dad4

Kicker4Life said:


> Best thing you can do is understand that “you” aren’t even in the picture. It is your DD’s path, let her pave it.


Lol.  Fair.  I saw the mistake when I wrote it and was too lazy to try to fix it on a phone.  My involvement is limited to chauffeur and throwing balls when she asks.


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## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> My involvement is limited to chauffeur and throwing balls when she asks.


I am familiar with this role.


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## dk_b

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am familiar with this role.


it’s the role we all pine for when it’s over.


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## Messi>CR7

dad4 said:


> I would rather have regional all star teams than ECNL.
> Let the local club do day to day training.   2 hours in the car 4x per week MIGHT get you the scholarship, but it will tank your grades so bad that you wont be able to do much with it.


Academics doesn't have to be the first thing that gets sacrificed.  The idea is after studying and soccer, there won't be any time left for boys.


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## Highlander

dad4 said:


> I would rather have regional all star teams than ECNL.
> Let the local club do day to day training.   2 hours in the car 4x per week MIGHT get you the scholarship, but it will tank your grades so bad that you wont be able to do much with it.


This is basically what France does...and I agree 100%. Doesn't mean the local club teams are bad at all.


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## Soccer43

ECNL was a great experience until the chaos began with changing age groupings, DA, etc.  Certain birth years were especially harmed in this process.

it is the best pathway for college exposure.  There are other ways to make it to college soccer but they are more difficult and nearly impossible to make it to a top D1 program without being in the ECNL.  Please don’t bring up the issue of the 2 years of the DA - those players that were good enough would have been in the ECNL during that time.    It is really difficult to get attention from coaches if you are not in the ECNL and you are not in the tournaments where the college coaches are.  Yes, you can play in the Vegas Cup but if you aren’t an ECNL team you are playing on some field far away from the main field with no coaches watching.  

The down side is the cost. People have argued on this forum that it doesn’t cost $10,000 to play in the ECNL. It definitely does when you are honest and include travel costs, uniforms, gas to practices. $3000 for club fees, min 4 trips to Phoenix $1600 (average $400 per trip), PDA $1500, Vegas Cup $800, ECNL playoffs (San Diego $ 1000 / Chicago $1500) ECNL finals ($1500), Uniforms $300, Gas $1200 (easily with an hour commute to practices and games) etc. these are just estimates because I don’t feel like spending the time to dig through bank statements but the actual are probably more than this - this is also only for player costs, not family travel

The end does not always provide a scholarship but at the very least can help you with admission to a top preferred school and a roster spot.  With the increase in recruiting international players the roster
spots are even fewer and more competitive.  3% make it to college soccer, 1% to top D1 program


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## rainbow_unicorn

dad4 said:


> I would rather have regional all star teams than ECNL.
> Let the local club do day to day training.   2 hours in the car 4x per week MIGHT get you the scholarship, but it will tank your grades so bad that you wont be able to do much with it.


Imagine how much better players would be if they were dedicating that 8 commute hours/week into skills training.


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## Soccerhelper

rainbow_unicorn said:


> *Imagine* how much better players would be if they were dedicating that 8 commute hours/week into skills training.


Imagine how fun it will be for the players who have to play games to make it fun or they will play another game instead.  My goat wants to play a game.  It's been 6 months and she has been doing so many other things and that is a good thing.  Now, it's time to drive 8 hours to play a real soccer game.


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## TOSDCI

Soccer43 said:


> ECNL was a great experience until the chaos began with changing age groupings, DA, etc.  Certain birth years were especially harmed in this process.
> 
> it is the best pathway for college exposure.  There are other ways to make it to college soccer but they are more difficult and nearly impossible to make it to a top D1 program without being in the ECNL.  Please don’t bring up the issue of the 2 years of the DA - those players that were good enough would have been in the ECNL during that time.    It is really difficult to get attention from coaches if you are not in the ECNL and you are not in the tournaments where the college coaches are.  Yes, you can play in the Vegas Cup but if you aren’t an ECNL team you are playing on some field far away from the main field with no coaches watching.
> 
> The down side is the cost. People have argued on this forum that it doesn’t cost $10,000 to play in the ECNL. It definitely does when you are honest and include travel costs, uniforms, gas to practices. $3000 for club fees, min 4 trips to Phoenix $1600 (average $400 per trip), PDA $1500, Vegas Cup $800, ECNL playoffs (San Diego $ 1000 / Chicago $1500) ECNL finals ($1500), Uniforms $300, Gas $1200 (easily with an hour commute to practices and games) etc. these are just estimates because I don’t feel like spending the time to dig through bank statements but the actual are probably more than this - this is also only for player costs, not family travel
> 
> The end does not always provide a scholarship but at the very least can help you with admission to a top preferred school and a roster spot.  With the increase in recruiting international players the roster
> spots are even fewer and more competitive.  3% make it to college soccer, 1% to top D1 program


I completely agree with the exception of the top 10% of players.  If your kid is in the top 10% of the players in their age group, coaches will find you.  If you are a player that is really good but not in that group and could play D1 at a middle of the road program, it is really hard to get noticed if they don't play ECNL.  This is especially true for kids looking to attend college in the midwest or east coast.  ECNL showcases bring coaches from around the country to one central location.  It's super convenient for them to walk from field to field seeing a lot of talented players in one place.  More bang for their recruiting dollar.


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## Highlander

TOSDCI said:


> I completely agree with the exception of the top 10% of players.  If your kid is in the top 10% of the players in their age group, coaches will find you.  If you are a player that is really good but not in that group and could play D1 at a middle of the road program, it is really hard to get noticed if they don't play ECNL.  This is especially true for kids looking to attend college in the midwest or east coast.  ECNL showcases bring coaches from around the country to one central location.  It's super convenient for them to walk from field to field seeing a lot of talented players in one place.  More bang for their recruiting dollar.


Ya, super convenient for them and a total pain and the ass for everyone else not to mention the $$$ to get there. In this new world of online video teleconferencing I see this all changing soon. It makes zero sense for the player...and they like to market themselves was "players first"...what a bunch of BS...its players last, then parents, then coaches, then whoever scrapes the $$$ off the top.


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## happy9

TOSDCI said:


> I completely agree with the exception of the top 10% of players.  If your kid is in the top 10% of the players in their age group, coaches will find you.  If you are a player that is really good but not in that group and could play D1 at a middle of the road program, it is really hard to get noticed if they don't play ECNL.  This is especially true for kids looking to attend college in the midwest or east coast.  ECNL showcases bring coaches from around the country to one central location.  It's super convenient for them to walk from field to field seeing a lot of talented players in one place.  More bang for their recruiting dollar.


California is definitely the pay to play soccer talent mecca  in the country, closely followed by the east coast (VA,DE, NJ, NY, MA, etc).  I don't have any real connections within CA collegiate athletics but had developed many on the east coast.  ECNL, DA, etc weren't the top dogs in terms of recruiting.  There were so many tournaments that coaches did not have a hard time accessing talent.  It was interesting to say the least, they were more local and regionally focused, understanding the ethnic makeup of where they lived.  They knew where to go to recruit for girls and for boys. 

I lived in NJ, within a 40 min drive to the Red Bull Academy complex.  My son's club coach was also the Academy U18 Director.  Most of their recruiting was done in the neighborhoods in NJ that had futsal and soccer fields as the centerpiece of parks VS basketball courts.  Central, South American communities with an emotional attachment to futbol.  These neighborhoods would have never been able to afford letter league costs, even with "scholarships".  Obviously this is boys centric recruiting but college coaches applied the same concept to the girls, going to where the girls were playing soccer. Also, the Red Bull Academy comparison isn't very good because the MLS doesn't care about college.  It's a byproduct of their process.  They are all about the homegrown talent and keeping their top and 2nd team rosters filled.

DIV II schools were very good at recruiting, leveraging their approach to scholarships.  Plenty of schools to go around and plenty of really good academic D2 schools with very good programs.  Sometimes kids get D1 tunnel vision, in CA it's easy - the stanfords and the UCLAs of the world taking center stage. I'm going through this very process with my oldest - sit for 2 years on a D1 bench (mediocre academic school) or play much earlier at a good D2 program with a very good academic reputation. He will have to make a decision here pretty soon.  Most kids won't play D1 (on the boys side, wayyyy to much international recruiting being done, automatically shrinking rosters spots to almost 50%).  

I guess my point is (if I even have a point) is that CA is so densely populated and has such a concentration of talent, that not paying to play, but keeping it more regionally focused and having more "all star" type tournaments wouldn't set anyone back.  Would it make college coaches work little harder to recruit, probably.  You could also argue that maybe coaching would suffer at the club level because the bigger letter league clubs pay more and attract "better" coaches.  CA also has many, many colleges that play good soccer that aren't D1.  

Since I've moved back to AZ, I've always wondered why a CA team would travel to AZ to play any kind of game, just on the surface.  I get it, the letter leagues make more money by league expansion and it is a money making venture, so it's not going away.  On the boys side, CA non letter league teams are just as good, many better than ECNL/DA.  The MLS will stir things up, especially once they are able to fully deploy cost free play.  Plenty of great talent in AZ and most are competitive when they leave the state to play.  But in reality, and this is just my opinion, most good players will find a way to play on a college team.  There are so many schools that need players and college coaches are always looking.  Is it easier to gain access to coaches via a letter league, absolutely - we've created this monster of easy access for coaches.  

Enough rambling for now, gotta go buy tires.


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## Jose has returned

Texas ECNL is playing. good on them


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## Jose has returned

Soccerhelper said:


> No, you drink too early dude.....  You owned it and I'm sure Dom will just give you a little warning.  I will tell you that is stupid thing to post and not good for my brother who fought his ass off for the country and obeyed LBJ.  Not cool but whatever.  Joke is a joke,


i got a warning for something way less than what this is on that post. I guess life isn't black and white its red and blue.


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## Soccerhelper

Jose has returned said:


> i got a warning for something way less than what this is on that post. I guess life isn't black and white its red and blue.


That one broke my heart.  My bro went in at 17.  His dad died when he was 9 and he wanted to fight. So he got my mom to sign over so he could go and off he went to South East Asia in one gnarly war.  He was hand radio operator and left as a helicopter gunner.  50% survival rate.  My bro from another family is one of my heroes.  The sh*t he went through as a kid and as a teenager over in Nam was horrible.  He was stuffer and later got married then divorced and then married again and then lost his DD to lawn darts.  Only 7 years old.  That set him off and he went on a one man crusade against the Government.  Just an ordinary Dave who fought for his country and lived a life of pain on earth.  Losing your father at 9, war, work at Hughes Aircraft, divorce, re marry and then lose 7 year old DD to stupid game for kids back then is hard on any man.  I will share his story of not pulling the trigger to end it all over at my suicide prevention thread tomorrow.  This is him Jose.  DC tried to get him to run for office and he told them all to fu*k off!!!


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## Soccer43

Soccer helper - you are a good story teller but just can’t believe all your stories are true lol


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## Soccerhelper

Soccer43 said:


> Soccer helper - you are a good story teller but just can’t believe all your stories are true lol


Which one's do you think is a story teller?  How about this story.  My wife and I just got back from a sad day of helping her dad, who has Alzheimers. Guess what else we found out this week?  Grandma has Alzheimer too and it's worse then Gramps.  Their plan of retiring in Guatemala is now officially over.  Married over 50 years.  This is called a double wammie in life and it hurts everyone.  You know what 43?  Were going to help them through this.  I hope you believe me.


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## keeprunning

Soccer43 said:


> ECNL was a great experience until the chaos began with changing age groupings, DA, etc.  Certain birth years were especially harmed in this process.
> 
> it is the best pathway for college exposure.  There are other ways to make it to college soccer but they are more difficult and nearly impossible to make it to a top D1 program without being in the ECNL.  Please don’t bring up the issue of the 2 years of the DA - those players that were good enough would have been in the ECNL during that time.    It is really difficult to get attention from coaches if you are not in the ECNL and you are not in the tournaments where the college coaches are.  Yes, you can play in the Vegas Cup but if you aren’t an ECNL team you are playing on some field far away from the main field with no coaches watching.
> 
> The down side is the cost. People have argued on this forum that it doesn’t cost $10,000 to play in the ECNL. It definitely does when you are honest and include travel costs, uniforms, gas to practices. $3000 for club fees, min 4 trips to Phoenix $1600 (average $400 per trip), PDA $1500, Vegas Cup $800, ECNL playoffs (San Diego $ 1000 / Chicago $1500) ECNL finals ($1500), Uniforms $300, Gas $1200 (easily with an hour commute to practices and games) etc. these are just estimates because I don’t feel like spending the time to dig through bank statements but the actual are probably more than this - this is also only for player costs, not family travel
> 
> The end does not always provide a scholarship but at the very least can help you with admission to a top preferred school and a roster spot.  With the increase in recruiting international players the roster
> spots are even fewer and more competitive.  3% make it to college soccer, 1% to top D1 program


100% truth here. Regarding the international players, look at the Memphis roster that has a large percentage of Canadian players. 





						2022 Women's Soccer Roster - University of Memphis Athletics
					

The official 2022 Women's Soccer Roster for the University of Memphis Tigers




					gotigersgo.com


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## SoccerLocker

keeprunning said:


> 100% truth here. Regarding the international players, look at the Memphis roster that has a large percentage of Canadian players.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022 Women's Soccer Roster - University of Memphis Athletics
> 
> 
> The official 2022 Women's Soccer Roster for the University of Memphis Tigers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gotigersgo.com


So even after all of the letter league exposure, international players are getting a larger % of scholarships?  That seems to argue the premise of this thread is correct...


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## futboldad1

SoccerLocker said:


> So even after all of the letter league exposure, international players are getting a larger % of scholarships?  That seems to argue the premise of this thread is correct...


lol okaaaay..... try to be content with the league your kid plays in...... I'm happy my kid plays in ECNL as she's exposed to a high level teammates in training and plays against the best players in CA every weekend..... the added exposure is just the cherry on top


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

SoccerLocker said:


> So even after all of the letter league exposure, international players are getting a larger % of scholarships?  That seems to argue the premise of this thread is correct...


Arizona State had a recruiting class of 6 (5 are from out of the country) and he's already got 6 internationals on the roster.  I doubt he'll still be there after 1 more season but that's 1/3 of your roster.


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## Desert Hound

EOTL said:


> Once again, I. was referring to ECNL. And go figure, no ECNL.
> 
> I’m sure there are CA teams going to AZ because, as I keep saying, Americans are stupid. Just read some of @msk357’s posts.


Actually ECNL and GA teams are coming out here. 

Per your previous arguments do you think covid knows the difference between scrimmages and league games? As in one is safe the other is not? 

Your excuse now is that because some of the games might be a scrimmage, your previous stance is void?


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## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> Actually ECNL and GA teams are coming out here.
> 
> Per your previous arguments do you think covid knows the difference between scrimmages and league games? As in one is safe the other is not?
> 
> Your excuse now is that because some of the games might be a scrimmage, your previous stance is void?


No, my point is that ECNL recognizes the stupidity of doing this and wants no part of it. They are both equally bad ideas right now.

I never said that no one will ever be an idiot and try to scrimmage in AZ. I’ve been very clear about how stupid Americans are.


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## Glitterhater

I'm not sure if we're still on topic here, but I asked a similar question months back. Not if ECNL was broken, but if it was a must. I got some great feedback. I think it's a personal choice- and you really can't argue with personal choice. There are people that don't/won't bat an eye at the cost, even during the current state of affairs when you really aren't getting any of the "perks" of ECNL. But those families may have kids who have been on their ECNL team for a couple seasons and relationships have formed. During these crazy times, I'm not sure you can put a price on those relationships.

Full disclosure-we are not an ECNL family, (yet?) My DD actually just left a club she had been with for the last three seasons due to an overall toxic environment. She didn't bond with that team despite her few years being there. Honestly, if she had bonded and was enjoying her time there still. We'd gladly fork over the cash even if it was ECNL level costs. And nope, not well off- at all


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## Desert Hound

EOTL said:


> No, my point is that ECNL recognizes the stupidity of doing this and wants no part of it. They are both equally bad ideas right now.


ECNL is playing games around the country amigo. 

And you said parents would not go. They wouldn't do it. Turns out parents do want to go. 

After all what exactly is the risk to the kids? 330 dead in the US under the age of 24 so far? 

That is why you are going to see more and more teams going to Utah, NV, AZ, etc from CA. 

Other regions of ECNL are playing...as are various regions of GA.


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## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> ECNL is playing games around the country amigo.
> 
> And you said parents would not go. They wouldn't do it. Turns out parents do want to go.
> 
> After all what exactly is the risk to the kids? 330 dead in the US under the age of 24 so far?
> 
> That is why you are going to see more and more teams going to Utah, NV, AZ, etc from CA.
> 
> Other regions of ECNL are playing...as are various regions of GA.


Yes, I got that. Americans are stupid. We’ll be at 200,000 dead people in a week or two. But CA teams still can’t play ECNL, just like I said.


----------



## Desert Hound

EOTL said:


> Yes, I got that. Americans are stupid. We’ll be at 200,000 dead people in a week or two. But CA teams still can’t play ECNL, just like I said.


Cal teams will be playing ECNL soon enough amigo. 

And the virus is going to do what viruses do. They don't go away.


----------



## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> Cal teams will be playing ECNL soon enough amigo.
> 
> And the virus is going to do what viruses do. They don't go away.


Right. Like next year. Like I said. Enjoy your scrimmage.


----------



## Desert Hound

EOTL said:


> Right. Like next year. Like I said. Enjoy your scrimmage.


The first step is to admit you were wrong...

Let us start there.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Desert Hound said:


> The first step is to admit you were wrong...
> 
> Let us start there.


----------



## happy9

The Outlaw said:


> Arizona State had a recruiting class of 6 (5 are from out of the country) and he's already got 6 internationals on the roster.  I doubt he'll still be there after 1 more season but that's 1/3 of your roster.


Certainly starting to creep into the women's college game.  The men's college game is all about the international recruit.  The schools love it since most countries pay to play (hmmm).  The catch for the players is that they have to come back to their country and work  for a certain amount of time.  Take a peek at any D1 and D2 roster and even D3 rosters, the international players take up a significant # of roster slots.  My son is going through this right now.  Will likely commit to a smaller D2 school, basing his decision on academics and more playing time.


----------



## Soccerhelper

I don't think ECNL is broken you guys.  I think some States have breaks in their foundations.  It's nothing that can't be repaired.  However, sometimes people think they can do it themselves, you the know, the DIYs of the world.  My pal has been a plumber since he was born.  His dad was one and they all grew on up da beach.  He's retired now and is living life to the fullest.  He was telling me about his worse type of customer.  He called them the DIYs with money and they don't want to part with it and they think they know everything.  He told me about a guy in Santa Monica that was a lawyer and DIY.  He was called it to these dudes house and their was sh*t everywhere.  The DIY thought he knew how to fix his own sh*t and he made it worse. m My pal gave him an hourly price that offended the lawyer and he got a lot of blow back but the lawyer said, "F it, go ahead.  I should have been a plumber."  Funniest dam story 43.  If we can fix the problems in the State, ECNL will be fixed.  The fact is, we need the Mecca of girls soccer to flourish and be able to play, not be divided.  That's what happen in socal last threes year.  We had toxic war:  The New Philosophy that was dead set against HS Soccer.   GDA vs ECNL
GDA= World Class Development ((National Team & Pros))
ECNL= Elite Club National league ((College))

I hope everyone can help get youth sports back for the kids.  I will also stay home and let my dd drive so i don't get anyone sick.  I'm serious.  I dont have to watch.  I have not watched a game since Late Feb and I that's ok.


----------



## azsnowrider

The Outlaw said:


> Arizona State had a recruiting class of 6 (5 are from out of the country) and he's already got 6 internationals on the roster.  I doubt he'll still be there after 1 more season but that's 1/3 of your roster.


You may be right on this, scratching my head over replacing KB with him. What been improved? Nada, except It's like the UN down there... Been told the international student is easier to get in.


----------



## tjinaz

The Outlaw said:


> Arizona State had a recruiting class of 6 (5 are from out of the country) and he's already got 6 internationals on the roster.  I doubt he'll still be there after 1 more season but that's 1/3 of your roster.


Not sure this is a good example.  The ASU coach is from England so he will prefer Internationals.  Girl he brought with him when he came from Southern Alabama now plays for Liverpools team after she left ASU.  He is seeing untapped talent in Europe and recruiting it.  Who wouldn't want to leave rainy, dreary England and go play in Tempe?



Soccerhelper said:


> I don't think ECNL is broken you guys.  I think some States have breaks in their foundations.  It's nothing that can't be repaired.  However, sometimes people think they can do it themselves, you the know, the DIYs of the world.  My pal has been a plumber since he was born.  His dad was one and they all grew on up da beach.  He's retired now and is living life to the fullest.  He was telling me about his worse type of customer.  He called them the DIYs with money and they don't want to part with it and they think they know everything.  He told me about a guy in Santa Monica that was a lawyer and DIY.  He was called it to these dudes house and their was sh*t everywhere.  The DIY thought he knew how to fix his own sh*t and he made it worse. m My pal gave him an hourly price that offended the lawyer and he got a lot of blow back but the lawyer said, "F it, go ahead.  I should have been a plumber."  Funniest dam story 43*.  If we can fix the problems in the State, ECNL will be fixed.  The fact is, we need the Mecca of girls soccer to flourish and be able to play, not be divided.  That's what happen in socal last threes year.  We had toxic war:  The New Philosophy that was dead set against HS Soccer.   GDA vs ECNL*
> _*GDA= World Class Development ((National Team & Pros))*_
> *ECNL= Elite Club National league ((College))*
> 
> I hope everyone can help get youth sports back for the kids.  I will also stay home and let my dd drive so i don't get anyone sick.  I'm serious.  I dont have to watch.  I have not watched a game since Late Feb and I that's ok.


There is your problem.. To some ECNL is the be all end all of Girls Soccer.  Will never be for Boys although when DA went down some thought everything would come together under the ECNL banner.  If there was a clear delineation on this it would be easy but both leagues want to say they are the best so.. it will continue.


----------



## happy9

azsnowrider said:


> You may be right on this, scratching my head over replacing KB with him. What been improved? Nada, except It's like the UN down there... Been told the international student is easier to get in.


The way I understand it, they come with guaranteed dollars for the school.   Money talks I suppose.


----------



## Highlander

futboldad1 said:


> lol okaaaay..... try to be content with the league your kid plays in...... I'm happy my kid plays in ECNL as she's exposed to a high level teammates in training and plays against the best players in CA every weekend..... the added exposure is just the cherry on top


You are missing my point...I have no problem with people enjoying their kid is in ECNL...hell, you better! You are paying a $#%# load for it! I do disagree that you are playing the best...hell, some ECNL teams suck. You are playing the best who are willing to pay...can't change that fact. Ya, I know some clubs offer scholarships...but they don't cover everything and they don't offer it to all...hell, how could they? Numbers wouldn't work out.

Anyway, my point being is ECNL is everything that is broken about USA soccer...it isn't about creating the best players...its about separating parents from their $$$. If it was about creating the best players we would have regional Allstar teams that deserving players would attend...players would continue to play with their local clubs of their choice. Go read what France is doing...there is a reason they dominate the world football scene. So stupid we have kids travel hours multiple times a week to play with an "Elite" team...most ECNL girls are so burnt out by the time they get to 17/18 that they don't even want to play in college.


----------



## Giesbock

happy9 said:


> Certainly starting to creep into the women's college game.  The men's college game is all about the international recruit.  The schools love it since most countries pay to play (hmmm).  The catch for the players is that they have to come back to their country and work  for a certain amount of time.  Take a peek at any D1 and D2 roster and even D3 rosters, the international players take up a significant # of roster slots.  My son is going through this right now.  Will likely commit to a smaller D2 school, basing his decision on academics and more playing time.


How does recruiting of international players work?  I assume there’s a strong network of partner academies and clubs around the world but does say the Virginia or Stanford coach say “yeah sure bring her over” just on an international scout’s recommendation?  And when does Admissions office step in to confirm acceptance?  Thanks


----------



## Soccerhelper

Highlander said:


> You are missing my point...I have no problem with people enjoying their kid is in ECNL...hell, you better! You are paying a $#%# load for it! I do disagree that you are playing the best...hell, some ECNL teams suck. You are playing the* best who are willing to pay*...can't change that fact. Ya, *I know some clubs offer scholarships...but they don't cover everything and they don't offer it to all...hell, how could they? Numbers wouldn't work out.*
> 
> Anyway, my point being is ECNL is everything that is broken about USA soccer...it isn't about creating the best players...its about separating parents from their $$$. If it was about creating the best players we would have regional Allstar teams that deserving players would attend...players would continue to play with their local clubs of their choice. Go read what France is doing...there is a reason they dominate the world football scene. So stupid we have kids travel hours multiple times a week to play with an "Elite" team...most ECNL girls are so burnt out by the time they get to 17/18 that they don't even want to play in college.


Highlander, boy do I have a story for you about free handouts.  PM me and I'll share.  I dont want to get another "over" from 43 regarding a story about my DD and all the freebies.  You get what you pay for and if it's free, watch out!!!  Unless of course it's to help a family out.  Maps teams did that and i like that.  Where does your goat play?  No one said that ECNL was was about developing the best players.  ECNL is a private business helping kids ((parents)) and colleges find each other.  It's brilliant.  ECNL is #1 league for girls hands down.  No ifs and or butts about it.  I would like to see more of an effort to reach poorer communities for kids who want more from soccer.  Their is much to fix that is broken in soccer, but ECNL is not broken.


----------



## happy9

Giesbock said:


> How does recruiting of international players work?  I assume there’s a strong network of partner academies and clubs around the world but does say the Virginia or Stanford coach say “yeah sure bring her over” just on an international scout’s recommendation?  And when does Admissions office step in to confirm acceptance?  Thanks


I don't know the specific methods being used.  Appears to me to be relationship driven.  I think the numbers in 2017 were about 20% of all roster spots in D1 and D2 programs were being taken up by international player and about 75% of D1 schools actively recruit internationally.  Plenty of coaches have ties either back to home countries.

It's just something to consider if your kid is looking to play in college, especially on the boys side.


----------



## Highlander

Soccerhelper said:


> Highlander, boy do I have a story for you about free handouts.  PM me and I'll share.  I dont want to get another "over" from 43 regarding a story about my DD and all the freebies.  You get what you pay for and if it's free, watch out!!!  Unless of course it's to help a family out.  Maps teams did that and i like that.  Where does your goat play?  No one said that ECNL was was about developing the best players.  ECNL is a private business helping kids ((parents)) and colleges find each other.  It's brilliant.  ECNL is #1 league for girls hands down.  No ifs and or butts about it.  I would like to see more of an effort to reach poorer communities for kids who want more from soccer.  Their is much to fix that is broken in soccer, but ECNL is not broken.


Would love to hear those stories! LOL.. I have a few of my own (20K donation made to ensure kid makes the team)... OK, as a business model you are right, ECNL is not broken...it's brilliant actually, and no doubt the best league to get college coaches eyes. To me its broken in the sense that it isn't making American soccer better as a whole...its making it worse. We can do better and we should do better. I wish US Club Soccer would make that happen. Change happens slow though...eventually NWSL is going to put in place their own youth league just like MLS is doing...that will change everything...


----------



## Soccerhelper

Highlander said:


> *You are missing my point...*..*but they don't cover everything and they don't offer it to all...hell, how could they? Numbers wouldn't work out.*


I agree with you about the business side, but when you offer free and all travel and* many other benefits*, you sure in the hell will win.  Check this article out.  Talk about the winning formula in winning the actual games.  Both are now out of the girls soccer business.  









						LA Galaxy and San Jose Earthquake shut down Girls Academy programs
					

MLS LA Galaxy and San Jose Earthquakes clubs have closed their Girls Academy programs, after the NFL Academy was closed. Soccer Wire confirmed earlier reports to the Los Angeles Times and the top football stair on the closings, after clubs reported their membership to the decision in the past...




					exbulletin.com
				




Here Highlights Highlander from the article:

*LA Galaxy Girls Academy* was the* first* ((not only)) fully funded elite girls’ program run by MLS, and has *seen great success* since its launch in *2017* before the opening season for girls. *LA Galaxy Academy ranked 35th* in the latest release of SoccerWire* Top 100 Girls Club rankings*, and its *LA Galaxy San Diego company ranked 50th.*

Before the recent closure of American football DA, *LA Galaxy U-16 Girls were in first place* in the *Southwestern division* with a score of *12-1-3*. *LA Galaxy San Diego U-16 Girls were also in the playoff mode, ranking third in the Southwestern Division* and the seed of the 12th overall playoffs.

*San Jose Earthquakes Academy ranked 10th* in recent SoccerWire *Top 100* Girls Club rankings. *The U-15 team* of the club acquired the National Girls’ Championship DA last season, completing an unbeatable campaign by scoring* 34-0-3*.


*LA Galaxy subsidiaries and Earthquakes have helped develop many players for the American National Youth Team.* After last summer’s national championship, *earthquakes were represented by four out of 20 players in the National Team Training Camps* list for girls under 16 years of age.


*As former LA Galaxy and Earthquakes players search for new places to play in the 2020-2021 season*, the staff of both clubs said that they worked with families throughout the process. *The Gulf and Southern California regions are among the best footballing spots in the entire country, *with no shortage of elite youth football options.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

tjinaz said:


> Not sure this is a good example.  The ASU coach is from England so he will prefer Internationals.  Girl he brought with him when he came from Southern Alabama now plays for Liverpools team after she left ASU.  He is seeing untapped talent in Europe and recruiting it.  Who wouldn't want to leave rainy, dreary England and go play in Tempe?
> 
> 
> 
> There is your problem.. To some ECNL is the be all end all of Girls Soccer.  Will never be for Boys although when DA went down some thought everything would come together under the ECNL banner.  If there was a clear delineation on this it would be easy but both leagues want to say they are the best so.. it will continue.


That should serve him well in his next job... next season.  LMAO!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

azsnowrider said:


> You may be right on this, scratching my head over replacing KB with him. What been improved? Nada, except It's like the UN down there... Been told the international student is easier to get in.


He seems like a really nice guy and I don't like seeing people lose jobs... but his record is 21-29-7 in 4 years and I don't think he won a single league game last season.  With Tony growing the program 2 hours down the road, I can't seem him lasting more than half a season... Pac 12 or not.


----------



## Soccerhelper

The Outlaw said:


> He seems like a really nice guy and I don't like seeing people lose jobs... but his record is 21-29-7 in 4 years and I don't think he won a single league game last season.  With Tony growing the program 2 hours down the road, I can't seem him lasting more than half a season... Pac 12 or not.


ASU is a great school I hear.  I had many friends attend and they loved it.  School, friends, fun, sports, parties and more fun.   U of A is really nice as well.


----------



## happy9

Highlander said:


> Would love to hear those stories! LOL.. I have a few of my own (20K donation made to ensure kid makes the team)... OK, as a business model you are right, ECNL is not broken...it's brilliant actually, and no doubt the best league to get college coaches eyes. To me its broken in the sense that it isn't making American soccer better as a whole...its making it worse. We can do better and we should do better. I wish US Club Soccer would make that happen. Change happens slow though...*eventually NWSL is going to put in place their own youth league just like MLS is doing...that will change everything...*


I think the NWSL will be hard pressed to make it through this year and into the next.  They are not a financially stable league and are starting to shed top players to Europe.  I agree that they should play a bigger role in girls development.  Unfortunately they don't have the horsepower to even think about taking on what the MLS is doing on the boys side. 

Boy's soccer development in this country is woefully lacking, as shown by our performance on the world stage.  Our top talent does not stay here.  Our professional league only  attracts the aging euro league's superstars (which is fun to watch, but not really good futbol).

Up until recently, the NWSL attracted the top talent in the world.  Now that trend seems to be reversing.  The US will continue to field the best players in the world, but that gap is closing.  IF leagues like the EPL and La Liga start to funnel money to their women's side, that will seal the fate of the NWSL.  But that is a big IF.  Those owners like getting more rich - if they determine that a women's league will not substantially raise their profits, then they will return to a status quo.  There isn't a precedence set anywhere in the world (that I can see) that a women's league is a profitable venture.  

I have a DD that's on consistent pathway to college and just maybe beyond.  That's of course until she decides she's not on the pathway, since teens change their mind daily. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings, I prefer she were a seasonal athlete.  It pains me to describe the bleak future of women's soccer in the US (beyond college), but I think it's a reality.  At the end of the day, academics should drive the train - so many players do not play at the program of their dreams (the program that their coach told her and her parents she could play at when she was 9).  

And yes, I think that the letter leagues are designed to take money from parents.  It's the current environment and one that will likely not change for the near future.  CV19 may make leagues adjust how they market to parents, but the end result will be the same.


----------



## happy9

The Outlaw said:


> He seems like a really nice guy and I don't like seeing people lose jobs... but his record is 21-29-7 in 4 years and I don't think he won a single league game last season.  With Tony growing the program 2 hours down the road, I can't seem him lasting more than half a season... Pac 12 or not.


Yep - U o A is kicking his ass.


----------



## Soccerhelper

happy9 said:


> *Up until recently, the NWSL attracted the top talent in the world.  Now that trend seems to be reversing.  *
> 
> *I have a DD that's on consistent pathway to college and just maybe beyond*.  That's of course until sh*e decides she's not on the pathway, since teens change their mind daily. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings, I prefer she were a seasonal athlete.  It pains me to describe the bleak future of women's soccer in the US (beyond college), but I think it's a reality. * At the end of the day, *academics should drive the train* - so many players do not play at the program of their dreams (the program that their coach told her and her parents she could play at when she was 9).
> 
> And yes, I think that the letter leagues are designed to take money from parents.  It's the current environment and one that will likely not change for the near future.  CV19 may make leagues adjust how they market to parents, but the end result will be the same.


Excellent stuff Happy.  Our DDs seem similar.  I disagree in the red highlight only.  I think the reality will be in late 2022 for anyone 18 years or older to go and play soccer if that makes you happy.  My dd is super happy, Happy, when she plays soccer.  She's happiest win she whens but not all can wind. So she works hard at life and plays hard to the fullest.  She just goes and goes all day.  Full of restless energy.  She still wants to play soccer.  I hope after Nov 3rd everyone can just freaking relax and slow down and live life the way it was supposed to be lived.  Freedom is key.


----------



## Desert Hound

happy9 said:


> F leagues like the EPL and La Liga start to funnel money to their women's side, that will seal the fate of the NWSL. But that is a big IF. Those owners like getting more rich - if they determine that a women's league will not substantially raise their profits, then they will return to a status quo. There isn't a precedence set anywhere in the world (that I can see) that a women's league is a profitable venture.


Women's leagues over there have the same problem as in the US. 

Fans (men and women) prefer to watch the men's version in almost any league. This doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon here or abroad. 

The only 2 exceptions that come to mind where the women bring in viewers on a regular basis is women's golf and tennis.


----------



## Copa9

Soccer43 said:


> ECNL was a great experience until the chaos began with changing age groupings, DA, etc.  Certain birth years were especially harmed in this process.
> 
> it is the best pathway for college exposure.  There are other ways to make it to college soccer but they are more difficult and nearly impossible to make it to a top D1 program without being in the ECNL.  Please don’t bring up the issue of the 2 years of the DA - those players that were good enough would have been in the ECNL during that time.    It is really difficult to get attention from coaches if you are not in the ECNL and you are not in the tournaments where the college coaches are.  Yes, you can play in the Vegas Cup but if you aren’t an ECNL team you are playing on some field far away from the main field with no coaches watching.
> 
> The down side is the cost. People have argued on this forum that it doesn’t cost $10,000 to play in the ECNL. It definitely does when you are honest and include travel costs, uniforms, gas to practices. $3000 for club fees, min 4 trips to Phoenix $1600 (average $400 per trip), PDA $1500, Vegas Cup $800, ECNL playoffs (San Diego $ 1000 / Chicago $1500) ECNL finals ($1500), Uniforms $300, Gas $1200 (easily with an hour commute to practices and games) etc. these are just estimates because I don’t feel like spending the time to dig through bank statements but the actual are probably more than this - this is also only for player costs, not family travel
> 
> The end does not always provide a scholarship but at the very least can help you with admission to a top preferred school and a roster spot.  With the increase in recruiting international players the roster
> spots are even fewer and more competitive.  3% make it to college soccer, 1% to top D1 program


Most clubs pay for air fare to finals for players (or was it the hotel,  as I recall (plus a little swag ) Then again it depends on club. Car pooling helps with weekly practice as well as room sharing with other player and parent for out of state travel, unless you make it a mini vacation for you and family.


----------



## Copa9

EOTL said:


> Yes, I got that. Americans are stupid. We’ll be at 200,000 dead people in a week or two. But CA teams still can’t play ECNL, just like I said.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> happy9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the specific methods being used.  Appears to me to be relationship driven.  I think the numbers in 2017 were about 20% of all roster spots in D1 and D2 programs were being taken up by international player and about 75% of D1 schools actively recruit internationally.  Plenty of coaches have ties either back to home countries.
> 
> It's just something to consider if your kid is looking to play in college, especially on the boys side.
> 
> 
> 
> International students overall pay higher tuition and universities like that.
Click to expand...


----------



## azsnowrider

The Outlaw said:


> He seems like a really nice guy and I don't like seeing people lose jobs... but his record is 21-29-7 in 4 years and I don't think he won a single league game last season.  With Tony growing the program 2 hours down the road, I can't seem him lasting more than half a season... Pac 12 or not.


Sure nice guy but Zero wins in Conference play. I really thought they would do better on the start they had, i thought the past season would be a break out year. I am just not sure Soccer is on Ray's radar at this time.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

azsnowrider said:


> Sure nice guy but Zero wins in Conference play. I really thought they would do better on the start they had, i thought the past season would be a break out year. I am just not sure Soccer is on Ray's radar at this time.


Agree... though that seems like a pretty good job not knowing what it pays.  Have you heard anything about why Nagy left U of A?  That seemed like a really solid coaching tandem.


----------



## happy9

Yep, money talks.


----------



## happy9

Soccerhelper said:


> Excellent stuff Happy.  Our DDs seem similar.  I disagree in the red highlight only.  I think the reality will be in late 2022 for anyone 18 years or older to go and play soccer if that makes you happy.  My dd is super happy, Happy, when she plays soccer.  She's happiest win she whens but not all can wind. So she works hard at life and plays hard to the fullest.  She just goes and goes all day.  Full of restless energy.  She still wants to play soccer.  I hope after Nov 3rd everyone can just freaking relax and slow down and live life the way it was supposed to be lived.  Freedom is key.


Well, at least the Cactus Cup will be available - I'm crossing my fingers that the weather pans out for the teams traveling from CA -  Hopefully all of our fields will be open and that  play will be conducted on first class pitches.


----------



## tjinaz

happy9 said:


> Well, at least the Cactus Cup will be available - I'm crossing my fingers that the weather pans out for the teams traveling from CA -  Hopefully all of our fields will be open and that  play will be conducted on first class pitches.


Just heard Scottsdale and Phoenix are going to open parks to we should have all fields available by October.


----------



## azsnowrider

The Outlaw said:


> Agree... though that seems like a pretty good job not knowing what it pays.  Have you heard anything about why Nagy left U of A?  That seemed like a really solid coaching tandem.


I am not sure why he left, but he was the main recruiting person I believe.  Curious if he lands elsewhere as an HC maybe.


----------



## azsnowrider

tjinaz said:


> Just heard Scottsdale and Phoenix are going to open parks to we should have all fields available by October.


For phoenix the word is Sept 10th. But they are going to be implementing a whole bunch of measures and will have roving compliance personal to monitor. So expect the clubs to be cracking down on people not following the guidelines. Don't want to lose those fields again....

_"According to a Phoenix news release, outside organizations and teams will be able to reserve the fields if they agree to follow safety procedures: “including having spectators, officials and coaches wear a mask or face covering; maintaining six feet between field and spectators; and limiting the participants on a field to 48 youths or 24 adults.”

Hall said that teams and organizations must agree to self-monitor during their activities on the fields.

“This process will be enhanced by (organizations) having an on-site compliance person. In addition, we have rovers who visit multiple park sites during their shift,” she said.

Hall mentioned that city personnel would observe games and practices to ensure safety measures are implemented."_


----------



## Soccerhelper

happy9 said:


> Well, at least the Cactus Cup will be available - I'm crossing my fingers that the weather pans out for the teams traveling from CA -  Hopefully all of our fields will be open and that  play will be conducted on first class pitches.


It's great chance for the folks at Cactus Cup to put on a great tournament.  Q Happy.  If goat is playing college ball right now, weather plays a facter always in soccer in AZ or do they cancel?  I loved AYSO because we played in the rain and mud and it was a blast.  Water breaks is cool too.  Time to get tough and go ball in AZ.


----------



## happy9

azsnowrider said:


> For phoenix the word is Sept 10th. But they are going to be implementing a whole bunch of measures and will have roving compliance personal to monitor. So expect the clubs to be cracking down on people not following the guidelines. Don't want to lose those fields again....
> 
> _"According to a Phoenix news release, outside organizations and teams will be able to reserve the fields if they agree to follow safety procedures: “including having spectators, officials and coaches wear a mask or face covering; maintaining six feet between field and spectators; and limiting the participants on a field to 48 youths or 24 adults.”
> 
> Hall said that teams and organizations must agree to self-monitor during their activities on the fields.
> 
> “This process will be enhanced by (organizations) having an on-site compliance person. In addition, we have rovers who visit multiple park sites during their shift,” she said.
> 
> Hall mentioned that city personnel would observe games and practices to ensure safety measures are implemented."_


That's what I hear.  Fully expect that the golf carts will be out and about.  While it's tedious, parents need to do the right thing, in spite of personal beliefs.  It's not that hard.  It's unclear if face mask are mandatory even if you are socially distanced.


----------



## Soccerhelper

azsnowrider said:


> For phoenix the word is Sept 10th. But they are going to be implementing a whole bunch of measures and will have roving compliance personal to monitor. So expect the clubs to be cracking down on people not following the guidelines. Don't want to lose those fields again....
> 
> _*"According to a Phoenix news release, outside organizations and teams will be able to reserve the fields if they agree to follow safety procedures: “including having spectators, officials and coaches wear a mask or face covering; maintaining six feet between field and spectators; and limiting the participants on a field to 48 youths or 24 adults.”*
> 
> Hall said that teams and organizations must agree to self-monitor during their activities on the fields.
> 
> “This process will be enhanced by (organizations) having an on-site compliance person. In addition, we have rovers who visit multiple park sites during their shift,” she said.
> 
> Hall mentioned that city personnel would observe games and practices to ensure safety measures are implemented."_


Deal!!!!


----------



## EOTL

Highlander said:


> You are missing my point...I have no problem with people enjoying their kid is in ECNL...hell, you better! You are paying a $#%# load for it! I do disagree that you are playing the best...hell, some ECNL teams suck. You are playing the best who are willing to pay...can't change that fact. Ya, I know some clubs offer scholarships...but they don't cover everything and they don't offer it to all...hell, how could they? Numbers wouldn't work out.
> 
> Anyway, my point being is ECNL is everything that is broken about USA soccer...it isn't about creating the best players...its about separating parents from their $$$. If it was about creating the best players we would have regional Allstar teams that deserving players would attend...players would continue to play with their local clubs of their choice. Go read what France is doing...there is a reason they dominate the world football scene. So stupid we have kids travel hours multiple times a week to play with an "Elite" team...most ECNL girls are so burnt out by the time they get to 17/18 that they don't even want to play in college.


The US should definitely abandon ship and start doing what France is doing given France’s complete domination. I mean France did come in 4th in the 2011 WC and again at the 2012 Olympics after all. Never mind that the US has won the last two WC, was unlucky not to win the one before that, and has handed France its ass in every meaningful game in history, including on its own turf last year.

In the ECNL era, there is no question ECNL has produced most of the WNT players and college All-Americans. Approximately 90% of ECNL players also play in college. I believe all but two Stanford players who grew up in the US played ECNL. Claiming ECNL burns everyone out so they don’t play in college is just wrong. Yes, like anything done at an elite level, it burns some people out, but that is the nature of doing anything at an elite level. 

And this nonsense about regional all star teams is a joke. No one gets better playing on an occasional all star team. They do get better being challenged every day for years by elite teammates, coaches and competition, and the vast majority of them can be found in ECNL. All star teams were what the US did with the likes of ODP during an era in which Germany was kicking its ass.

Complaining about the cost of ECNL is just sour grapes by those who don’t want to pay what things cost. If you want the Ferrari, yes, it costs a lot more than the Kia.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> The US should definitely abandon ship and start doing what France is doing given France’s complete domination. I mean France did come in 4th in the 2011 WC and again at the 2012 Olympics after all. Never mind that the US has won the last two WC, was unlucky not to win the one before that, and has handed France its ass in every meaningful game in history, including on its own turf last year.
> 
> In the ECNL era, there is no question ECNL has produced most of the WNT players and college All-Americans. Approximately 90% of ECNL players also play in college. I believe all but two Stanford players who grew up in the US played ECNL. Claiming ECNL burns everyone out so they don’t play in college is just wrong. Yes, like anything done at an elite level, it burns some people out, but that is the nature of doing anything at an elite level.
> 
> And this nonsense about regional all star teams is a joke. No one gets better playing on an occasional all star team. They do get better being challenged every day for years by elite teammates, coaches and competition, and the vast majority of them can be found in ECNL. All star teams were what the US did with the likes of ODP during an era in which Germany was kicking its ass.
> 
> Complaining about the cost of ECNL is just sour grapes by those who don’t want to pay what things cost. If you want the Ferrari, yes, it costs a lot more than the Kia.


ECNL= Capitalism at it's best.


----------



## Soccer43

Copa9 said:


> Most clubs pay for air fare to finals for players (or was it the hotel,  as I recall (plus a little swag ) Then again it depends on club. Car pooling helps with weekly practice as well as room sharing with other player and parent for out of state travel, unless you make it a mini vacation for you and family.


That is to the finals not playoffs,  so 4 teams may get a break on some of that travel.   The other 64 teams traveling to “playoffs” do not get that.  Carpooling only works if you have someone near you on the same team and that doesn’t always work out that way; in terms of hotels for any club we have been with the players were required to stay with the team and we were told what our expense was for that privaledge - the costs we were charged was not always transparent nor add up well


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> The US should definitely abandon ship and start doing what France is doing given France’s complete domination. I mean France did come in 4th in the 2011 WC and again at the 2012 Olympics after all. Never mind that the US has won the last two WC, was unlucky not to win the one before that, and has handed France its ass in every meaningful game in history, including on its own turf last year.
> 
> In the ECNL era, there is no question ECNL has produced most of the WNT players and college All-Americans. Approximately 90% of ECNL players also play in college. I believe all but two Stanford players who grew up in the US played ECNL. Claiming ECNL burns everyone out so they don’t play in college is just wrong. Yes, like anything done at an elite level, it burns some people out, but that is the nature of doing anything at an elite level.
> 
> And this nonsense about regional all star teams is a joke. No one gets better playing on an occasional all star team. They do get better being challenged every day for years by elite teammates, coaches and competition, and the vast majority of them can be found in ECNL. All star teams were what the US did with the likes of ODP during an era in which Germany was kicking its ass.
> 
> Complaining about the cost of ECNL is just sour grapes by those who don’t want to pay what things cost. If you want the Ferrari, yes, it costs a lot more than the Kia.


And, like a new Ferrari, it is relatively common for ECNL to total the vehicle.

Say, how many Blues players were in the shop with ACL tears the last 2 years?


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> And, like a new Ferrari, it is relatively common for ECNL to total the vehicle.
> 
> Say, how many Blues players were in the shop with ACL tears the last 2 years?


The last GDA mafioso. If a club abuses your child, that is on you and, to a lesser extent, the club. It has nothing to do with the ECNL platform.  And, of course, Blues also participated in GDA. 

You, as the parent, are responsible for your child. Put her on the pill. Speak with your club DOC and coach about safety and expectations to make sure she doesn’t play full 90 minutes. In ECNL, no one is required to play an entire game with no breaks, so you should be good unless you’re one of those whiny p**sies who is too chicken to talk with a coach about your kid’s safety.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> ECNL= Capitalism at it's best.


AKA: you get what you pay for.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> ... so you should be good unless you’re one of those whiny p**sies who is too chicken to talk with a coach about your kid’s safety.


So how many surgeries per year at your club?  How many repeat concussions?

Or are you one of those whiny little p**sies who is too chicken to answer a direct question about kids' safety?


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> So how many surgeries per year at your club?  How many repeat concussions?
> 
> Or are you one of those whiny little p**sies who is too chicken to answer a direct question about kids' safety?


GDA lost. It’s over. It should not be a surprise. Can’t say I didn’t warn you.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> AKA: you get what you pay for.


Ha - or what you are sold. But this argument can become tedious and circular in nature.  ECNL does what it claims well enough that it's highly sought after and coveted.  Nothing wrong with that.  But to be fair, it's pay to play for those that can.  And if you refute that, then self awareness is not a trait that you possess (and I don't mean you specifically).  All on this forum wear the badge, whether it's ECNL, GDA/GA or (insert your elite league here).


----------



## TOSDCI

dad4 said:


> And, like a new Ferrari, it is relatively common for ECNL to total the vehicle.
> 
> Say, how many Blues players were in the shop with ACL tears the last 2 years?


I feel like that is a Blues problem and not an ECNL as a whole problem.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Ha - or what you are sold. But this argument can become tedious and circular in nature.  ECNL does what it claims well enough that it's highly sought after and coveted.  Nothing wrong with that.  But to be fair, it's pay to play for those that can.  And if you refute that, then self awareness is not a trait that you possess (and I don't mean you specifically).  All on this forum wear the badge, whether it's ECNL, GDA/GA or (insert your elite league here).


Pay to play. Pay to get piano lessons. Pay to eat. Pay to live under a roof. Pay to own a car. Pay, pay, pay. It’s almost like that is how things work.


----------



## dad4

TOSDCI said:


> I feel like that is a Blues problem and not an ECNL as a whole problem.


Yes, but Blues players aren’t the only ones they injure. 

ECNL could put a stop to it by rewriting the ECNL referee guidance.  The wrecking ball at CM strategy doesn’t work if your wrecking ball gets a red card.


----------



## Highlander

EOTL said:


> The US should definitely abandon ship and start doing what France is doing given France’s complete domination. I mean France did come in 4th in the 2011 WC and again at the 2012 Olympics after all. Never mind that the US has won the last two WC, was unlucky not to win the one before that, and has handed France its ass in every meaningful game in history, including on its own turf last year.
> 
> In the ECNL era, there is no question ECNL has produced most of the WNT players and college All-Americans. Approximately 90% of ECNL players also play in college. I believe all but two Stanford players who grew up in the US played ECNL. Claiming ECNL burns everyone out so they don’t play in college is just wrong. Yes, like anything done at an elite level, it burns some people out, but that is the nature of doing anything at an elite level.
> 
> And this nonsense about regional all star teams is a joke. No one gets better playing on an occasional all star team. They do get better being challenged every day for years by elite teammates, coaches and competition, and the vast majority of them can be found in ECNL. All star teams were what the US did with the likes of ODP during an era in which Germany was kicking its ass.
> 
> Complaining about the cost of ECNL is just sour grapes by those who don’t want to pay what things cost. If you want the Ferrari, yes, it costs a lot more than the Kia.


No doubt on the womens side we are ahead...but it isn't because of ECNL. On the mens side France crushes everyone - just go look at the numbers of French players playing in high level pro leagues...its not even a question that their methods are the best. And guess what they do...regional "all-star" teams. Mbappe played on his local club to the end of his amateur career. The rest of the world is and will catch up and pass the USWNT if we keep down this path.

Here are the 2019 ECNL #'s:

Girls ECNL Class of 2019: 1,633
Total Players Playing Collegiate Soccer: 1,156
Much better than I would have thought....but not 90%. Still, I can't get past that you could take those same $'s you spent on ECNL/Travel and put that into a college fund that that most of these kids would have been better off.

End of the day, I think it's a crappy system that is based off of what the parents are willing to spend as much if not more than the kids actual ability. IMO we need to do better.


----------



## Dubs

happy9 said:


> Ha - or what you are sold. But this argument can become tedious and circular in nature.  ECNL does what it claims well enough that it's highly sought after and coveted.  Nothing wrong with that.  But to be fair, it's pay to play for those that can.  And if you refute that, then self awareness is not a trait that you possess (and I don't mean you specifically).  All on this forum wear the badge, whether it's ECNL, GDA/GA or (insert your elite league here).


It's all pay to play!  Yes ECNL is more and so was the DA, but this is our system.  Whether you play for a big club that supports the elite league or a smaller local club that plays only NPL/CRL.


----------



## Highlander

Since I'm here...I'm curious what you guys have seen in team turn over year to year on your DD's ECNL teams? 3-4 players? More? Less?


----------



## futboldad1

dad4 said:


> Yes, but Blues players aren’t the only ones they injure.
> 
> ECNL could put a stop to it by rewriting the ECNL referee guidance.  The wrecking ball at CM strategy doesn’t work if your wrecking ball gets a red card.


You sure have an axe to grind with ECNL and ECNL clubs located in SoCal..... especially for someone who says they're "from NorCal" and only "has a u-little"......


----------



## Desert Hound

Highlander said:


> Since I'm here...I'm curious what you guys have seen in team turn over year to year on your DD's ECNL teams? 3-4 players? More? Less?


I think generally you get more turnover in the first couple of years. Those are the years when teams are formed. And then the following year, the teams may find some kids didnt work out, have others of interest come in, etc. 

At the older years you will get less turnover as the teams are more set. 

That said...when you have new leagues start (DA) and then a league collapses (DA) you will get more movement vs normal.


----------



## dad4

futboldad1 said:


> You sure have an axe to grind with ECNL and ECNL clubs located in SoCal..... especially for someone who says they're "from NorCal" and only "has a u-little"......


 I’m kind of pissed at the safety record of youth sports in general.   Too many people willing to watch kids get hurt, then call people “pussy” when they point out the injuries.  ECNL are injury central for girls soccer, so they get the attention.  GDA was just as bad.

Why pick on Blues? 
 1- They have a reputation for the style of play that creates injuries.
 2- They have the power within ECNL that they could help fix the problem, if they cared.
 3- If Blues continue to win by creating injuries, other clubs will try to copy what they do and more girls will get hurt.

I don’t only have a ulittle.  I also have an older kid who had to quit all sports after an injury.


----------



## Kicker4Life

dad4 said:


> I’m kind of pissed at the safety record of youth sports in general.   Too many people willing to watch kids get hurt, then call people “pussy” when they point out the injuries.  ECNL are injury central for girls soccer, so they get the attention.  GDA was just as bad.
> 
> Why pick on Blues?
> 1- They have a reputation for the style of play that creates injuries.
> 2- They have the power within ECNL that they could help fix the problem, if they cared.
> 3- If Blues continue to win by creating injuries, other clubs will try to copy what they do and more girls will get hurt.
> 
> I don’t only have a ulittle.  I also have an older kid who had to quit all sports after an injury.


So none of your kids play soccer?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> ECNL are injury central for girls soccer, so they get the attention. GDA was just as bad.


I am curious as to what you think should be changed? My DD has played both DA and ECNL so I have seen a lot of games.


----------



## Soccerhelper

dad4 said:


> I’m kind of pissed at the safety record of youth sports in general.   Too many people willing to watch kids get hurt, then call people “pussy” when they point out the injuries.  ECNL are injury central for girls soccer, so they get the attention.  GDA was just as bad.
> 
> Why pick on Blues?
> 1- They have a reputation for the style of play that creates injuries.
> 2- They have the power within ECNL that they could help fix the problem, if they cared.
> 3- If Blues continue to win by creating injuries, other clubs will try to copy what they do and more girls will get hurt.
> 
> I don’t only have a ulittle.  I also have an older kid who had to quit all sports after an injury.


Why not focus on Nocal dad?  Your starting to get on my nerves......lol.  Let's talk soccer in socal soccer forum.  You worry about the virus in your neighborhood or town and we will kick it's ass down here.  OC is kicking ass and were all red today   Blues has a style of play that is not for all.  Look at NC and you get an idea.  My dd chose possession over that style.  Direct, in your face and I wont stop until I win, works in socal and it's a choice for each coach.  Blues envy is the cause I think for all the jealousy in soccer.  Cut throat soccer with cut throat cuts and no parent likes it when their goat is cut or worse, a goat is stolen from one club to Blues Goathood.  Goat stealing rubs so many the wrong way all because clubs think they own da player or at least they make you feel guilty as heck for even thinking of a different environment or coach for next season.


----------



## Soccerhelper




----------



## dad4

Soccerhelper said:


> Why not focus on Nocal dad?  Your starting to get on my nerves......lol.  Let's talk soccer in socal soccer forum.  You worry about the virus in your neighborhood or town and we will kick it's ass down here.  OC is kicking ass and were all red today   Blues has a style of play that is not for all.  Look at NC and you get an idea.  My dd chose possession over that style.  Direct, in your face and I wont stop until I win, works in socal and it's a choice for each coach.  Blues envy is the cause I think for all the jealousy in soccer.  Cut throat soccer with cut throat cuts and no parent likes it when their goat is cut or worse, a goat is stolen from one club to Blues Goathood.  Goat stealing rubs so many the wrong way all because clubs think they own da player or at least they make you feel guilty as heck for even thinking of a different environment or coach for next season.


I’m not trying to get on your nerves.  Sorry about that.  I meant to annoy EOTL.

NC?  NC has a truly awful record on injuries, too.  same style, same results.  

The goat stealing is going to happen as long as second tier clubs fail to promote.  

Second tier clubs focus on taking rec kids and bringing them up to mid level competitive.  They don’t have patches, but if you have an upper level rec kid, that‘s where you should look, because that’s who knows how to help your child.

The problem comes when a rec-silver club stumbles on a goat and doesn’t want to let go.  The club should call up the letter league coach and send them over for tryouts.  But that isn’t what happens.  So the letter league clubs do their best to poach/advertise/recruit.


----------



## happy9

Dubs said:


> It's all pay to play!  Yes ECNL is more and so was the DA, but this is our system.  Whether you play for a big club that supports the elite league or a smaller local club that plays only NPL/CRL.


Yep, it's all play to play.  Comes down to how much you are going to pay to play.  Other countries do pay to play but not as over the top as here in the US.  Makes us unique when it comes to youth sports.  Nothing wrong with that, our system, for them most part, works across all sports. When it comes to soccer in the US, it's ironically a game for the more well to do families.  ECNL, DA/GA, abc, def, ghi, etc... are a perfect example of it.  I am a user of the letter leagues, so I'm being critical of my role in perpetuating them.  It's the system we have and I'm thankful I can participate. 

Here are some interesting articles to give you perspective:









						Youth soccer case study: England (yes, they pay, but less)
					

This is the first in a series of “case studies” examining how a particular club, country or other organization runs youth soccer. It’ll be limited a bit because I, like too many p…




					rantingsoccerdad.com
				












						Youth Soccer in America: How Prohibitive Costs are Hurting the Game - Econsult Solutions, Inc.
					

American soccer means that wealthy parents spend money to propel their kids while the country’s greatest talents are left behind through economic inequity.




					econsultsolutions.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> ECNL are injury central for girls soccer, so they get the attention.  GDA was just as bad.


I thought one of the few things Girls DA improved compared to ECNL was the rule limiting the number of games/minutes played over a short number of days.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Pay to play. Pay to get piano lessons. Pay to eat. Pay to live under a roof. Pay to own a car. Pay, pay, pay. It’s almost like that is how things work.


Yep, and if you have priorities then: pay for the roof, then maybe a car.  Piano lessons and youth sports are at the bottom of many family lists. Especially when you can play for free at a pickup game on any given night.  Perspective is key.  Some of the best foot skills I've seen have been on dirt pitches all over the world.  Those kids will never see the light of day on a pitch with a blade of grass.


----------



## happy9

kickingandscreaming said:


> I thought one of the few things Girls DA improved compared to ECNL was the rule limiting the number of games/minutes played over a short number of days.


GDA was more practice, less games, never more than 2 game days in a row.  One or two of the practices at the direction of a trainer focused on recovery and strength.

From what i've seen/read so far, the GA is adopting the exact approach.


----------



## dad4

kickingandscreaming said:


> I thought one of the few things Girls DA improved compared to ECNL was the rule limiting the number of games/minutes played over a short number of days.


Could easily extend that rule younger.  It’s not that rare for a kid to get 200+ minutes of play time over 2 days.  (4 x 50 min games, plus OT.)


----------



## futboldad1

happy9 said:


> GDA was more practice, less games, never more than 2 game days in a row.  One or two of the practices at the direction of a trainer focused on recovery and strength.
> 
> From what i've seen/read so far, the GA is adopting the exact approach.


it could be risky to follow rule set of a league that failed...... I'd thought adapting ECNL rules was what the DOCs who started GA were doing...... DA 3 games in 4 days not too different to 3 game in 3 days as regarding strain on bodies but very different on strain on a family's wallet (hotels, transport)....... 1 game per day I think is a good thing that all leagues (to my knowledge) follow...... so will GA be outlawing HS soccer as that's the main injury contributor.......serious question

but bud let me tell you AZ is doing this return to soccer thing right..... big jealousy from my DD about you guys right now


----------



## Desert Hound

futboldad1 said:


> so will GA be outlawing HS soccer as that's the main injury contributor.......serious question


They have already said they are allowing HS soccer.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Yep, and if you have priorities then: pay for the roof, then maybe a car.  Piano lessons and youth sports are at the bottom of many family lists. Especially when you can play for free at a pickup game on any given night.  Perspective is key.  Some of the best foot skills I've seen have been on dirt pitches all over the world.  Those kids will never see the light of day on a pitch with a blade of grass.


Wow, I don’t know why Cromwell and Radcliffe aren’t out there trolling the dirt fields instead of wasting their time at ECNL showcases. You should give them a call and let them know where to find all these super secret soccer prodigies.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

kickingandscreaming said:


> I thought one of the few things Girls DA improved compared to ECNL was the rule limiting the number of games/minutes played over a short number of days.


The DA teams I'm most familiar with trained 4-days per week.  Is that normal for ECNL or are they 3?  If trainings are normally 90 minute sessions, that's a lot no matter how much you play on the weekend.


----------



## Desert Hound

The Outlaw said:


> The DA teams I'm most familiar with trained 4-days per week.  Is that normal for ECNL or are they 3?  If trainings are normally 90 minute sessions, that's a lot no matter how much you play on the weekend.


ECNL in AZ is usually 3 days a week.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED*

EOTL said:


> Wow, I don’t know why Cromwell and Radcliffe aren’t out there trolling the dirt fields instead of wasting their time at ECNL showcases. You should give them a call and let them know where to find all these super secret soccer prodigies.


Like Hailie Mace!


----------



## tjinaz

Desert Hound said:


> ECNL in AZ is usually 3 days a week.


Pretty sure GAL is 4.  DPL and APL are 3 and most do some conditioning/private on the side.


----------



## EOTL

The Outlaw said:


> Like Hailie Mace!


If you don’t count that she never played on a dirt field in her life, and also ignore that she played ECNL, she is the perfect example of a kid who grew up playing on dirt fields and didn’t play ECNL.


----------



## happy9

futboldad1 said:


> it could be risky to follow rule set of a league that failed...... I'd thought adapting ECNL rules was what the DOCs who started GA were doing...... DA 3 games in 4 days not too different to 3 game in 3 days as regarding strain on bodies but very different on strain on a family's wallet (hotels, transport)....... 1 game per day I think is a good thing that all leagues (to my knowledge) follow...... so will GA be outlawing HS soccer as that's the main injury contributor.......serious question
> 
> but bud let me tell you AZ is doing this return to soccer thing right..... big jealousy from my DD about you guys right now


  I've seen schedules that show the high school break.  If they stick to their end of the bargain, then HS soccer will be allowed.  I can say this about AZ,  if the DA had been more openly lenient in regards to HS, the DA teams wouldn't have lost as many of the olders.   There was a double standard, behind the back deals  that were player specific.  Allowing HS is beneficial from a recruiting standpoint and allowed teams this year to basically remain intact.  It's why the GA teams are generally stronger across the age groups in AZ.  That could change next year, but for this year, it's where it stands. Apparently (and I can't confirm), the DA was going to allow HS play for the 2020/21 season but then, you know, the thing happened.  Everything else about the way the DA was structured was very popular with parents.  The emphasis on system, style of play, etc.  Not every club followed it but it was nice to see structure.  The GA certainly hasn't leaned in that direction.  It's more of a feel good, its about the girls message. Which also makes parents feel good.

The break in between games makes physiological sense but certainly could be a strain on family wallets - no argument there.  Short trips weren't that big of a deal (CA showcases) but spring and fall showcases to FL, NC, or CO could get pricey with the extra day.  I do recall some complaints, but not too many.  Families adjusted, sent their kid with someone else, etc.  

And yes, playing soccer right now feels good.  2 games on the docket for the weekend and first  true contact practice tonight - I just saw shin guards sticking out of bags.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Wow, I don’t know why Cromwell and Radcliffe aren’t out there trolling the dirt fields instead of wasting their time at ECNL showcases. You should give them a call and let them know where to find all these super secret soccer prodigies.


Nice


----------



## happy9

tjinaz said:


> Pretty sure GAL is 4.  DPL and APL are 3 and most do some conditioning/private on the side.


They start 4 days a week next week.  One day is split between field session and conditioning at a facility.


----------



## Soccerhelper

Less is best for my dd practice wise, but I respect the 4 days a week folks.  I got all hissy fit over this stuff last year.  It's good to see options for all and now see that as a good step.  Free local soccer sounds very appealing to me as a dad.  Locals Only FC   I commend the top top players still going 4 days a week/10 months a year, all in soccer that teaches world class commitment to the game.  Today, I'm grateful my dd got on ECNL team last year and is looking to help the team this year anyway she can.  2 days a week is enough.  Plus school, plus hs soccer pre pre season for one hour two days week.  That is plenty to do for a teen.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

The Outlaw said:


> The DA teams I'm most familiar with trained 4-days per week.  Is that normal for ECNL or are they 3?  If trainings are normally 90 minute sessions, that's a lot no matter how much you play on the weekend.


Yes, her DA training was 4x a week. Of course, Deza trained 4 times a week when they were ECNL.

I was influenced by reading how Ajax trained their top youth players. One of the concepts they implemented was more training and fewer games with one of the benefits being that it reduced the chance of injury (article below, behind a paywall). It makes sense if you see how the pros schedule their games. Generally, two games a week, at most, in professional soccer. Fatigue not only reduces the skill level, but it also increases the risk of injury. I remember my daughter's last year before DA - 5 games at Surf (Sat-Mon), then 5 more games at Mustang (Thu-Sun). The team that won both those tournaments played 11 games - in 9 days. Even if they weren't full games based on time, that was easily 5 full games in 9 days. Insanity if you ask me. Training intensity can be managed so that body doesn't need days of recovery.









						How a Soccer Star Is Made (Published 2010)
					

In Europe, a cutting-edge talent factory trains elite soccer players — starting at age 7.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## happy9

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yes, her DA training was 4x a week. Of course, Deza trained 4 times a week when they were ECNL.
> 
> I was influenced by reading how Ajax trained their top youth players. One of the concepts they implemented was more training and fewer games with one of the benefits being that it reduced the chance of injury (article below, behind a paywall). It makes sense if you see how the pros schedule their games. Generally, two games a week, at most, in professional soccer. Fatigue not only reduces the skill level, but it also increases the risk of injury. I remember my daughter's last year before DA - 5 games at Surf (Sat-Mon), then 5 more games at Mustang (Thu-Sun). The team that won both those tournaments played 11 games - in 9 days. Even if they weren't full games based on time, that was easily 5 full games in 9 days. Insanity if you ask me. Training intensity can be managed so that body doesn't need days of recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How a Soccer Star Is Made (Published 2010)
> 
> 
> In Europe, a cutting-edge talent factory trains elite soccer players — starting at age 7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


As the kids get older, smarter trainer certainly needs to take over.  We go to 4 practices a week starting next week, with the first day of practice split between recovery focus conditioning and film review.  Practice goes to 3 days a week if there are two weekend games with recovery being prioritized. 

I'm not a fan of multiple games in a day, completely defeats the idea of quality matches.


----------



## Woobie06

EOTL said:


> Pay to play. Pay to get piano lessons. Pay to eat. Pay to live under a roof. Pay to own a car. Pay, pay, pay. It’s almost like that is how things work.


I agree with you 100%...nothing is free...somebody always pays.  I love how so many want “free”...


----------



## happy9

Woobie06 said:


> I agree with you 100%...nothing is free...somebody always pays.  I love how so many want “free”...


I don't think the conversation is centered around the idea that people want free, that's a whole other issue. I'm more referring to the fact that pay to play doesn't necessarily identify the best players.  And before flames start flying about our women's national team being the best in the world (which they are), I know that many/most are a product of ECNL and other leagues.  That is a completely different conversation centered around opportunity.  Traditionally the european countries did not focus on women's equality in sports - many reasons why.   In the US we do, college sports are the perfect example.  The gap is closing and it's likely that the product that comes out of Europe will be a replication of how they do it on the men's side - not pay to play.  The French and Spanish national teams are a good example and the rest of Europe is not far behind.  Germany has always been at the top.

Until there is significant backing by someone (NWSL, MLS, USSF, some rich dude), the gap with the rest of the world will continue to close.  ECNL/GA and  other pay to play leagues will not be able to carry the torch beyond filling roster slots on college teams. The evidence is right in front of us with the failings of the boys DA.   MLS is stepping in but are far behind and their priorities are filling their rosters.  Our best on the men's side go directly or as quickly as they can to Europe.


----------



## SoccerLocker

I agree that the pay to play model is flawed, but until there is serious $ in Women's professional soccer, we are stuck with it.

Until a team can fully fund the cost of training/traveling (not to mention housing/educating) a player in exchange for her professional rights (which can be sold to another club), there is no financial incentive to do so.  The fully funded model was a great experiment that Galaxy (and I think Earthquakes) tried.  It lasted ~2 years, and was the first thing cut in April.

This is already in place on the Men's side.  Pay to play is much weaker (aka why fully funded MLS clubs wanted out of DA) and at least one club is offering a fully funded option with a USL Pro team.

Honestly, I thought the pandemic would have really exposed this issue.  The value proposition has changed since there will be less college scholarships for our kids, but we pay the same price.


----------



## dad4

I’m not even convinced we need significant financial backing.

If you want to run elite training camps 3x per week for the 40,000 parents who *think* their kid is elite, that costs money.  The money is collected from the 40,000 parents, and you have a letter league.

If you want to run elite camps/playdates one time a week for the 800 players you actually care about, it costs far less money.  And it actually brings top players together, which is what you want.

The catch is, you can’t outsource the elite camp system to your letter league coach.  If you do that, he’ll try to poach the top players, and other coaches will stop sending kids.


----------



## Messi>CR7

SoccerLocker said:


> I agree that the pay to play model is flawed, but until there is serious $ in Women's professional soccer, we are stuck with it.


That pretty much summed it up.  I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary.  The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.

Club soccer industry is a business.  It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money.  Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet.  They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead.  Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value.  ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure.  It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.

How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered?  First world problem IMHO.  I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare.  If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it.  First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school.  Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now?  There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.


----------



## happy9

dad4 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Messi>CR7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That pretty much summed it up.  I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary.  The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.
> 
> *Club soccer industry is a business.* * It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money.*  Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet.  They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead.  Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value.  ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure.  It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.
> 
> *How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered?  First world problem IMHO*.  I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare.  If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it. * First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school. * Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now?  There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.
> 
> 
> 
> It's definitely a business and it's most definitely a first world problem for us .  Which to me is the irony of soccer in the US.  Their certainly isn't an uproar that the men's team sucks and  in 10 years or less, there will not be an uproar that the women's side will be on par or sub par VS the rest of the world.   Soccer is barely considered a sport in this country and no one really cares, except those on kids soccer forums.  Many on here are crossing fingers and hoping that the ROI on a letter league pans out with paid tuition. It's why ECNL and others exist.
> 
> And yes, to your point about basketball courts into futsal courts - next time you are on the east coast, NJ specifically, check them out, they are all over the place. Definitely culturally driven.
Click to expand...


----------



## Franco2020

Messi>CR7 said:


> That pretty much summed it up.  I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary.  The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.
> 
> Club soccer industry is a business.  It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money.  Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet.  They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead.  Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value.  ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure.  It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.
> 
> How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered?  First world problem IMHO.  I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare.  If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it.  First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school.  Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now?  There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.




[/QUOTE]

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side.   Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.


----------



## youthsportsugghhh

Any news on the games that were played around the country in ECNL the last couple of weekends?  Scores/Quality/Competitiveness?  My daughters club just started going to 3 trainings a week here in NorCal, but the air has kind of slowed that down too.  Once we do get back to playing those teams that are already playing will have a decided advantage, but I don't think for that long over the teams that aren't.  That of course will also depend on the talent of the teams not playing as of yet -- quality will always be quality.


----------



## youthsportsugghhh

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side.   Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.
[/QUOTE]
Part of that is that they don't have the structure when they start learning the game -- they just try things to see what works and learn the beauty in the creativity of the game of soccer. It also allows them to be able to adapt to any situation instead of the rigidness of the "taught" game here in the US. I have tried to get my daughter(s) to join pickup games at the park, they don't want to, but it would definitely expand their games.


----------



## happy9

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side.   Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, and that's my point.  In the US we pay thousands (you, me, them, us) of dollars a year on a sport that historically and culturally is played  on dirt fields and concrete courts all over the world.  Yes, EPL, La Liga, etc have awesome facilities and they foot the bills for their academies.  I get it.

It's not going to change here in the US.  Our men's team will always be middle of the pack, barely making international tournaments.  I'm fine with that, I still watch other sports (well, not lately, not even MLS, but I digress).  My kids will eventually stop playing soccer and my interests will shift to other things or back to things.

*Our women's side is starting to migrate to  Europe.  The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city).  This is just the beginning.  Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent.  This doesn't bode well for the NWSL.  Their brand is tied to the WMNT.    At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?*


----------



## LASTMAN14

happy9 said:


> Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side.   Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.


Absolutely, and that's my point.  In the US we pay thousands (you, me, them, us) of dollars a year on a sport that historically and culturally is played  on dirt fields and concrete courts all over the world.  Yes, EPL, La Liga, etc have awesome facilities and they foot the bills for their academies.  I get it.

It's not going to change here in the US.  Our men's team will always be middle of the pack, barely making international tournaments.  I'm fine with that, I still watch other sports (well, not lately, not even MLS, but I digress).  My kids will eventually stop playing soccer and my interests will shift to other things or back to things.

*Our women's side is starting to migrate to  Europe.  The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city).  This is just the beginning.  Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent.  This doesn't bode well for the NWSL.  Their brand is tied to the WMNT.    At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?*
[/QUOTE]
The pay structure with the teams in England allows them to financially offer players more. They are able to do this because those funds do not need to come from the team, but rather any entity affiliated with it. This advantage will draw the best talent. For example Sam Kerr at Chelsea is paid 400k. Most of that does not come from the Chelsea women's team but from an entity owned by Roman Abramovich.


----------



## Messi>CR7

happy9 said:


> *Our women's side is starting to migrate to  Europe.  The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city).  This is just the beginning.  Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent.  This doesn't bode well for the NWSL.  Their brand is tied to the WMNT.    At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?*


Nothing wrong with that scenario if we're talking about building the best national teams possible.  If the best training and competition take place in Europe, by all means our national team players should be there.

For many Latin American countries, the working model for men has been:
-Local clubs invest in young talent
-Sell good players (18 or older) to big European clubs for transfer fees to recoup their investment
-These players work on their craft in Europe, and return to their countries to play Copa America, Olympics, and World Cup.

Or we can go the China route and spend tax payers' money if soccer is important to us as a nation:








						'China's soccer dream': Why Beijing wants to dominate the sport by 2050
					

President Xi Jinping, an avid soccer fan, is recruiting thousands of kindergartens across the country to realise China's ambitious "soccer dream" to dominate the sport by 2050.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Where will be the investment come from for women in the US?  I agree pay-to-play leaves out talents especially on the girls side, but money needs to come from somewhere if you want more inclusion.


----------



## happy9

Messi>CR7 said:


> Nothing wrong with that scenario if we're talking about building the best national teams possible.  If the best training and competition take place in Europe, by all means our national team players should be there.
> 
> For many Latin American countries, the working model for men has been:
> -Local clubs invest in young talent
> -Sell good players (18 or older) to big European clubs for transfer fees to recoup their investment
> -These players work on their craft in Europe, and return to their countries to play Copa America, Olympics, and World Cup.
> 
> Or we can go the China route and spend tax payers' money if soccer is important to us as a nation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'China's soccer dream': Why Beijing wants to dominate the sport by 2050
> 
> 
> President Xi Jinping, an avid soccer fan, is recruiting thousands of kindergartens across the country to realise China's ambitious "soccer dream" to dominate the sport by 2050.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where will be the investment come from for women in the US?  I agree pay-to-play leaves out talents especially on the girls side, but money needs to come from somewhere if you want more inclusion.


We won't do anything, we'll continue with the current model.  There are rumblings of the CCL, USYS, etc.. raising money to fund soccer at the grass roots level.  Let's hope that takes hold. There isn't enough interest (outside of profit) to drive a national inclusion effort, boys or girls.  Our best athletes don't play soccer and they likely never will.  Status quo will be maintained, we'll get fired up every 4 years.  For those of us that like soccer, we'll cross our fingers that old euro players come to the MLS.  LA Galaxy was a blast to watch last year and now you have Chichirito, which should be fun.   Wait until Messi finally makes it to Inter Miami.  I had a blast watching Drogba play for a year for Phoenix Rising.


----------



## LASTMAN14

happy9 said:


> We won't do anything, we'll continue with the current model.  There are rumblings of the CCL, USYS, etc.. raising money to fund soccer at the grass roots level.  Let's hope that takes hold. There isn't enough interest (outside of profit) to drive a national inclusion effort, boys or girls.  Our best athletes don't play soccer and they likely never will.  Status quo will be maintained, we'll get fired up every 4 years.  For those of us that like soccer, we'll cross our fingers that old euro players come to the MLS.  LA Galaxy was a blast to watch last year and now you have Chichirito, which should be fun.   Wait until Messi finally makes it to Inter Miami.  I had a blast watching Drogba play for a year for Phoenix Rising.


Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.


----------



## baller

youthsportsugghhh said:


> Any news on the games that were played around the country in ECNL the last couple of weekends?  Scores/Quality/Competitiveness?  My daughters club just started going to 3 trainings a week here in NorCal, but the air has kind of slowed that down too.  Once we do get back to playing those teams that are already playing will have a decided advantage, but I don't think for that long over the teams that aren't.  That of course will also depend on the talent of the teams not playing as of yet -- quality will always be quality.


Are you playing non-cohorted, full contact (ie, traditional soccer/training sessions)?  Was still "distance" training before 150+ AQI shut things down completely.


----------



## youthsportsugghhh

baller said:


> Are you playing non-cohorted, full contact (ie, traditional soccer/training sessions)?  Was still "distance" training before 150+ AQI shut things down completely.


"Distance"


----------



## happy9

LASTMAN14 said:


> Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.


That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity.  I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet.  There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind).  I think it's a matter of opinion.  Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer -  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa.   I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it.  Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4?  He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.

The list is open to debate of course.  Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.

My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone.  Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who  Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are.  There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.


----------



## youthsportsugghhh

LASTMAN14 said:


> Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.


On the girls side it is closer than on the boys side, but I would say that the better all-around athletes are basketball players as an overall group.


----------



## Dubs

happy9 said:


> That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity.  I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet.  There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind).  I think it's a matter of opinion.  Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer -  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa.   I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it.  Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4?  He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.
> 
> The list is open to debate of course.  Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.
> 
> My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone.  Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who  Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are.  There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.


Oh boy... you opened up Pandora's box with this one .  As you say, it's subjective...however, IMHO, it is unquestionably pro hockey players.  They are the most skilled athletes on the planet.  The combination of skills, in terms of hand/eye, skating (alone) and physicality of the game put these people on top.


----------



## happy9

Dubs said:


> Oh boy... you opened up Pandora's box with this one .  As you say, it's subjective...however, IMHO, it is unquestionably pro hockey players.  They are the most skilled athletes on the planet.  The combination of skills, in terms of hand/eye, skating (alone) and physicality of the game put these people on top.


Hockey players are cool and have a unique skill.  I won't argue that at all.  I bet you Larry Bird played hockey and decided to play basketball..


----------



## Soccer43

how are you defining "best athlete"?  what is your criteria for that list?


----------



## LASTMAN14

happy9 said:


> That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity.  I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet.  There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind).  I think it's a matter of opinion.  Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer -  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa.   I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it.  Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4?  He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.
> 
> The list is open to debate of course.  Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.
> 
> My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone.  Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who  Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are.  There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.


Very good response. And any answer is subjective. No doubt that’s true. The examples in the list of athletes was strong. And the mention of basketball in its own and as Dubs suggesting of hockey makes a strong case as well. I agree that these two sports may have the best well rounded athletes especially at the pro/int level. Do you think that most of those athletes based on purely their athletic aptitude (not training in a sport) and physical build (height, natural weight, etc) could actually play soccer at the highest level?


----------



## Messi>CR7

happy9 said:


> That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity.  I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet.  There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind).  I think it's a matter of opinion.  Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer -  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa.   I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it.  Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4?  He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.
> 
> The list is open to debate of course.  Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.
> 
> My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone.  Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who  Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are.  There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.


I also think basketball players are the best athletes.  However, IMO most NBA players would be too tall to excel in soccer since the ball is played close to the ground.  Take away centerbacks and goalkeepers, I would guess the best soccer players in the world average 5'10", +- 2 inches.

The problem in the US, as you correctly pointed out, is that kids watch TV and most play basketball and football.  But a majority of them can't make it to college or pro because they don't have the required size.  Perhaps we can implement a draconian policy such that if your dad is <5'9" and your mom is <5'3", you can only participate in soccer but not basketball or football.  If we could do that, US will be a powerhouse in soccer.


----------



## LASTMAN14

Messi>CR7 said:


> I also think basketball players are the best athletes.  However, IMO most NBA players would be too tall to excel in soccer since the ball is played close to the ground.  Take away centerbacks and goalkeepers, I would guess the best soccer players in the world average 5'10", +- 2 inches.
> 
> The problem in the US, as you correctly pointed out, is that kids watch TV and most play basketball and football.  But a majority of them can't make it to college or pro because they don't have the required size.  Perhaps we can implement a draconian policy such that if your dad is <5'9" and your mom is <5'3", you can only participate in soccer but not basketball or football.  If we could do that, US will be a powerhouse in soccer.


I forgot to mention that in my response to H9 that I to and like you accept that the major pro sports here are a huge factor in attracting athletes despite their ability, skill, etc.


----------



## happy9

Messi>CR7 said:


> I also think basketball players are the best athletes.  However, IMO most NBA players would be too tall to excel in soccer since the ball is played close to the ground.  Take away centerbacks and goalkeepers, I would guess the best soccer players in the world average 5'10", +- 2 inches.
> 
> The problem in the US, as you correctly pointed out, is that kids watch TV and most play basketball and football.  But a majority of them can't make it to college or pro because they don't have the required size.  Perhaps we can implement a draconian policy such that if your dad is <5'9" and your mom is <5'3", you can only participate in soccer but not basketball or football.  If we could do that, US will be a powerhouse in soccer.


I'm down


----------



## happy9

LASTMAN14 said:


> Very good response. And any answer is subjective. No doubt that’s true. The examples in the list of athletes was strong. And the mention of basketball in its own and as Dubs suggesting of hockey makes a strong case as well. I agree that these two sports may have the best well rounded athletes especially at the pro/int level. Do you think that most of those athletes based on purely their athletic aptitude (not training in a sport) and physical build (height, natural weight, etc) could actually play soccer at the highest level?


That is a great question.  Can a tall athlete be successful in high level soccer.  Fascinating actually (don't ruin my weekend, I need to get ready for dinner!!)

Average Heights:
NBA Guards: 6'2-6'4"
MLB: 6'2
NFL CB : 5'11 (I picked corners since they have to be hyper athletic to defend speed and size)
NHL: 6"1
EPL: 5'11
La Liga: 5'10
Bundesliga: 6'0"
MLS: 5'9"

I could go on and on but you get my drift.  I would say at the skill positions, the heights are pretty close.  I really can't think of anyone having to be more athletic than an NFL corner back.  Imagine having to defend Marquise Goodwin, who runs a 4.2 40.  He's running at you and you are backpedaling, having to decide which way he's going to turn, then having to accelerate to close the gap or keep up.  

An interesting note, the MLS homegrown players tend to be smaller overall.  Again though, you don't have to be big to play soccer, and too big is a detriment.

Anyway, good discussion.


----------



## Giesbock

Pure athletes in terms of fitness, strength and singular hard core focus...  Water Polo players and swimmers.   Course, a lack of land coordination, and hand eye coordination probably eliminate them from “entertainment “ athletes.


----------



## ToonArmy

happy9 said:


> That is a great question.  Can a tall athlete be successful in high level soccer.  Fascinating actually (don't ruin my weekend, I need to get ready for dinner!!)
> 
> Average Heights:
> NBA Guards: 6'2-6'4"
> MLB: 6'2
> NFL CB : 5'11 (I picked corners since they have to be hyper athletic to defend speed and size)
> NHL: 6"1
> EPL: 5'11
> La Liga: 5'10
> Bundesliga: 6'0"
> MLS: 5'9"
> 
> I could go on and on but you get my drift.  I would say at the skill positions, the heights are pretty close.  I really can't think of anyone having to be more athletic than an NFL corner back.  Imagine having to defend Marquise Goodwin, who runs a 4.2 40.  He's running at you and you are backpedaling, having to decide which way he's going to turn, then having to accelerate to close the gap or keep up.
> 
> An interesting note, the MLS homegrown players tend to be smaller overall.  Again though, you don't have to be big to play soccer, and too big is a detriment.
> 
> Anyway, good discussion.


Agree on NFL cornerbacks


----------



## Kicker4Life

IMHO, Hockey players are the best all around but I’d say Water Polo is right there as are rugby players.


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## LASTMAN14

happy9 said:


> That is a great question.  Can a tall athlete be successful in high level soccer.  Fascinating actually (don't ruin my weekend, I need to get ready for dinner!!)
> 
> Average Heights:
> NBA Guards: 6'2-6'4"
> MLB: 6'2
> NFL CB : 5'11 (I picked corners since they have to be hyper athletic to defend speed and size)
> NHL: 6"1
> EPL: 5'11
> La Liga: 5'10
> Bundesliga: 6'0"
> MLS: 5'9"
> 
> I could go on and on but you get my drift.  I would say at the skill positions, the heights are pretty close.  I really can't think of anyone having to be more athletic than an NFL corner back.  Imagine having to defend Marquise Goodwin, who runs a 4.2 40.  He's running at you and you are backpedaling, having to decide which way he's going to turn, then having to accelerate to close the gap or keep up.
> 
> An interesting note, the MLS homegrown players tend to be smaller overall.  Again though, you don't have to be big to play soccer, and too big is a detriment.
> 
> Anyway, good discussion.


Can I respond tomorrow. Friends over and I had wine.


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## SoccerLocker

happy9 said:


> *Our women's side is starting to migrate to  Europe.  The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city).  This is just the beginning.  Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent.  This doesn't bode well for the NWSL.  Their brand is tied to the WMNT.    At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?*


This always happens after a WC/Olympic cycle (Carli Lloyd to City, Rapinoe to Lyon, etc...). USA Soccer pays the NWSL salaries for the USWNT and they have to be released to go abroad.

Who knows what happens in the next CBA, but NWSL attendance dwarfs WSL and they finally have a decent TV deal so I wouldn’t start throwing dirt on them yet...


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## LASTMAN14

SoccerLocker said:


> This always happens after a WC/Olympic cycle (Carli Lloyd to City, Rapinoe to Lyon, etc...). USA Soccer pays the NWSL salaries for the USWNT and they have to be released to go abroad.
> 
> Who knows what happens in the next CBA, but NWSL attendance dwarfs WSL and they finally have a decent TV deal so I wouldn’t start throwing dirt on them yet...


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## sdb

Hands down Alex Honnold. Climbing EL Cap free solo requires insane balls, a single mistake and he dies. Will not be repeated in our lifetime if ever. When LeBron misses a shot he doesn’t die.


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## Footy30

Giesbock said:


> Pure athletes in terms of fitness, strength and singular hard core focus...  Water Polo players and swimmers.   Course, a lack of land coordination, and hand eye coordination probably eliminate them from “entertainment “ athletes.


I have not decided on my  answer yet, however I will never forget when I found out Water Polo players were treading water the whole time... I was floored!! I was young and thought they were standing and playing ha-ha. (face palm) 
@Kicker4Life @Giesbock


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## Soccerhelper

Bo Jackson, end of story.


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## Soccerhelper

Way's to save and make cuts to pay for Club Soccer, by Soccerhelper

So life has been hard for a lot of us.  I had no idea how I was going to afford and risk paying dues and all the travel and fees that come with ECNL.  I sat down with my dd and wife ((my son is amazing and never spends money )).  We sat around and tried to make cuts so goat can play and dad is not stressed out about this cost and that cost.  So I cancelled cable ((no tv now and it's been awesome)), I cancelled this and that, and then my wife gave up this and then my dd gave up a monthly subscription and then I gave up some of my habits and saved some more.  All in all, we shaved $417.50 a month.  We did it.  Oh ya, one more thing.  I called two places threatening to cancel and they lowered my monthly from $79.75 down to $54.75 a month and $432 down to $395.  Anything helps right now and it's a team effort.  No more pressure and just something fun to do for 10  months 

Next Soccerhelper advice will be how to save for retirement after you put soccer as top priority in your life!!!.  I'm still learning a few more things and then I will share with all you


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## happy9

SoccerLocker said:


> This always happens after a WC/Olympic cycle (Carli Lloyd to City, Rapinoe to Lyon, etc...). USA Soccer pays the NWSL salaries for the USWNT and they have to be released to go abroad.
> 
> Who knows what happens in the next CBA, but NWSL attendance dwarfs WSL and they finally have a decent TV deal so I wouldn’t start throwing dirt on them yet...


Agree that it always happens.  I think the circumstances are different this time.  There appears to be more money and more desire behind the efforts to make the women's leagues in Europe more important.  The cash from European leagues dwarfs what the MLS dreams of achieving.  It may peter out, it may not account for anything.  To me, this time it's different.  We will see.  I want homegrown players to stay home.


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## happy9

Footy30 said:


> I have not decided on my  answer yet, however I will never forget when I found out Water Polo players were treading water the whole time... I was floored!! I was young and thought they were standing and playing ha-ha. (face palm)
> @Kicker4Life @Giesbock


I always think of an athlete in terms of what they could achieve, beyond their current sport.  Water polo players are ridiculous in their own right and are amazing athletes - big and strong.   I don't think your average world class water polo player can train or be trained to cover Tyreek Hill.  Speed isn't something you can coach/train.  Take a look at Stephon Gilmore.  Played football, baseball, and ran track.  He was a quarterback in HS and set records rushing and throwing.  He's now the #1 CB in the NFL.  He has the physical ability to become a water polo player. He may not become the best water polo player, but I bet if he puts his mind to it, he can become a middle of the pack world class water polo player.  He's 6'1", 190lbs.

With all of that said, Bo Jackson is likely the greatest athlete to ever set foot on a playing surface.


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## futboldad1

Lebron would be good at soccer only as a gk..... best athletes argument is a very flawed one......


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## happy9

futboldad1 said:


> Lebron would be good at soccer only as a gk..... best athletes argument is a very flawed one......


Fault can always be found in subjectivity, that's kind of the basis of a subjective argument.  It's why the best athlete conversation is a fun one to have.  There is so much criteria to consider.

Most athletic league - NBA
Best Athletes - NFL corner backs
Best athlete ever - Bo Jackson
Toughest Athletes - Tie: Pro Tour Riders and world class Iron Man athletes.


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## Giesbock

Definitely sad to see so many of our top players going to Europe but can we blame them???  Better pay, better level of play, chance to live abroad..  All pluses but, yeah super bummed to see most going across the pond...

Is anyone at the US sports / advertising complex Workingon a response strategy to turn the trend around?  Maybe Dallas Cowboys Atlanta Falcons, NE Patriots and the likes pump some serious cash behind the women’s game of soccer!?


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## Dubs

happy9 said:


> Hockey players are cool and have a unique skill.  I won't argue that at all.  I bet you Larry Bird played hockey and decided to play basketball..


That's not how it goes.  If you play hockey first and then aren't good enough for highest level, then you move to basketball... at least in Minnesota.


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## Dubs

LASTMAN14 said:


> Very good response. And any answer is subjective. No doubt that’s true. The examples in the list of athletes was strong. And the mention of basketball in its own and as Dubs suggesting of hockey makes a strong case as well. I agree that these two sports may have the best well rounded athletes especially at the pro/int level. Do you think that most of those athletes based on purely their athletic aptitude (not training in a sport) and physical build (height, natural weight, etc) could actually play soccer at the highest level?


Really hard to say.. some of the faster skaters with slighter build might be suited for soccer... not sure.  Good question.


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## Dubs

Soccerhelper said:


> Bo Jackson, end of story.


Put skates on him... then what?


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## whatithink

Soccerhelper said:


> Bo Jackson, end of story.


But could he play one -handed


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## Soccerhelper

Dubs said:


> Put skates on him... then what?


If hockey was all he could do, he would be the best hockey player.  Not sure about hoops.  I tried to ice skate once and I hated it.  Plus, those guys have no teeth!!!


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## Soccerhelper

Imagine Bo going full speed on ice skates and taking Wayne out forever.......


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## happy9

Dubs said:


> That's not how it goes.  If you play hockey first and then aren't good enough for highest level, then you move to basketball... at least in Minnesota.


Ha, yes - especially that region of the country.


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## ToonArmy

Major league baseball shortstops or shortstops in general may not be the biggest strongest fastest athletes in the world but many who have been around baseball players as well as other sports know that your shortstops are special kind of athlete. The kind that is good at everything. Can play other major sports as well as any position in baseball and will kick your ass in golf ping pong darts bowling tennis pool cornhole paintball. Basically if you had a Sunday league soccer team of old fat beer drinkers and you needed a guy even if he never played soccer before if you got yourself a baseball shortstop he would have a natural feel for the game by full-time


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## Footy30

ToonArmy said:


> Major league baseball shortstops or shortstops in general may not be the biggest strongest fastest athletes in the world but many who have been around baseball players as well as other sports know that your shortstops are special kind of athlete. The kind that is good at everything. Can play other major sports as well as any position in baseball and will kick your ass in golf ping pong darts bowling tennis pool cornhole paintball. Basically if you had a Sunday league soccer team of old fat beer drinkers and you needed a guy even if he never played soccer before if you got yourself a baseball shortstop he would have a natural feel for the game by full-time


I love that you didn't put commas while listing everything a shortstop would kick ass in... made me pause and ask myself wtf is Cornhole paintball?? ha-ha.  I think I just might attempt some of these after some more booze Ping pong darts perhaps? btw my brother would 100% agree with you on the MLB shortstop


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## Copa9

Soccerhelper said:


> It's great chance for the folks at Cactus Cup to put on a great tournament.  Q Happy.  If goat is playing college ball right now, weather plays a facter always in soccer in AZ or do they cancel?  I loved AYSO because we played in the rain and mud and it was a blast.  Water breaks is cool too.  Time to get tough and go ball in AZ.


Rain and mud won't kill you (plus it is fun) but excessive heat can and does. Always, error on the side of safety in extreme heat. Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, and break in shade if at all possible.


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## Copa9

EOTL said:


> GDA lost. It’s over. It should not be a surprise. Can’t say I didn’t warn you.


It is all about money and management.  Just like our life budgets.  Some people know how to do it others don't. US soccer majorly screwed up.


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## Copa9

Soccerhelper said:


> Why not focus on Nocal dad?  Your starting to get on my nerves......lol.  Let's talk soccer in socal soccer forum.  You worry about the virus in your neighborhood or town and we will kick it's ass down here.  OC is kicking ass and were all red today   Blues has a style of play that is not for all.  Look at NC and you get an idea.  My dd chose possession over that style.  Direct, in your face and I wont stop until I win, works in socal and it's a choice for each coach.  Blues envy is the cause I think for all the jealousy in soccer.  Cut throat soccer with cut throat cuts and no parent likes it when their goat is cut or worse, a goat is stolen from one club to Blues Goathood.  !Goat stealing rubs so many the wrong way all because clubs think they own da player or at least they make you feel guilty as heck for even thinking of a different environment or coach for next season.


True, but when a coach develops the player(s) for six, seven years, they are recruited for D1, then they dump their coach and team for the shiny promise of a "National Championship", that is what rubs people the wrong way. And then, ......covid hits!  .....So interesting.


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## Soccerhelper

Website is not working and I just read something new to come 9/15.  Cool and exciting.......


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## mlx

Soccerhelper said:


> Website is not working and I just read something new to come 9/15.  Cool and exciting.......


theecnl.com
ecnlboys.com
ecnlgirls.com


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## 310soccer

I'm hearing MVLA is no longer playing NPL. Believe the ECNL schedule will be crammed into winter spring. Throw in all the showcase and they think NPL would be too much. They will no longer plan to play April Phoenix ECNL showcase for the same reason.


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## dad4

310soccer said:


> I'm hearing MVLA is no longer playing NPL. Believe the ECNL schedule will be crammed into winter spring. Throw in all the showcase and they think NPL would be too much. They will no longer plan to play April Phoenix ECNL showcase for the same reason.


I take it you mean MVLA‘s ECNL teams are skipping NPL for spring.  Or that they are dropping NPL entirely?

Dropping it would be a shame.  NPL is one of the things that norcal really gets right.  Good games and not too much travel.


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## lafalafa

mlx said:


> theecnl.com
> ecnlboys.com
> ecnlgirls.com


The new logo takes some time to get used to it I guess.  Reminds me of mini golf or something more than soccer.

Red logo patches for the girls and day glowish green from the boys ?

Anyway good to see usclub grow this nation wide to 37k with regional leagues growing(20k) a good chunk


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