# U.S. Soccer is a for profit business harming the diversity of the sport & holding the national team



## younothat (May 18, 2018)

The financial demands of soccer in the United States are harming the diversity of the sport and holding the national team back
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-soccer-diversity-2018-5

"One of the biggest, if not the biggest, drivers of the growth of soccer in the United States has been immigration from Latin American countries, where soccer is overwhelmingly the sport of choice.

Within U.S. Soccer as a program, Latin-Americans are scantily represented, and it's a problem that is holding back U.S. Soccer, preventing talented youngsters from being able to inject some much-needed skill into American soccer teams.

"It's very difficult for young immigrant families to _pay_ to play," said Herculez Gomez, a Mexican-American soccer player who played for the U.S. Men's National Team at the 2010 World Cup. "Often times these Latin-American kids . . . get overlooked because they don't have the funds. It's very much a suburban sport."

" *U.S. Soccer is primarily a business enterprise, operated by businessmen to make a profit*"

"At this level, we have people within the United States who make decisions based off financial reasons, or for other types of reasons that aren't sporting," Gomez said.

Another problem is that U.S. Soccer needs more representation within its organizational ranks.

"At the highest levels of U.S.S.F., there's not enough representation for Hispanic, Latino-Americans," Salazar said. "It's also representation in terms of coaching. If you look at youth national team coaching, there's not enough representation, if you compare it to the amount of kids who are actually playing."

These are not small or simple changes, and unfortunately, U.S. Soccer is an organization that appears resistant to change. But expanding the game so that it reaches kids of all backgrounds and making the national team more representative is utterly essential if the United States is to have a national team that is both more quintessentially American and more successful on the soccer field".

In Socal we have a better representation for Hispanic, Latino-Americans, but I guess the rest of the country could be lacking..


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## push_up (May 19, 2018)

USSF is racist!


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## MWN (May 20, 2018)

I have to say that the article represents why journalism is dying in America.  An entire article quoting two hispanic athletes, with no critical thought/challenges to the claims to these athletes claims.  Conclusory statements that are not challenged or supported by any factual claims (lack of representation in the USSF?  What USSF programs exist to reach out? What is the USSF's response?)

The author of the article demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the role the USSF plays and the legal limitations imposed on the USSF by the USOC.  For example, the author cites the amount of money the MLS (not the USSF) charges and then argues that money should be diverted from the for-profit MLS to non-profit academies associated with the MLS, not realizing these are different legal entities.  The author cites european academies and doesn't once mention why the system doesn't exist in the US (hint ... the answer is solidarity and training fees).

Taking a step back, let's look at Cal South (a US Youth Soccer affiliate, US Youth Soccer is a USSF Youth Council member) and the inability of Cal South to get the Mexican Leagues operating outside the USSF/US Youth Soccer/Cal South structure inside the structure.  The objections/issue Cal South has encountered are:

1) Club/Leagues must be 501(c)(3) non-profits.
2) Coaches/Admins/Managers must be "live scanned"
3) Parents/Players must fill out application.
4) Participants at the higher levels must travel throughout SoCal.

There are about 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in SoCal (https://www.dailynews.com/2017/02/09/more-undocumented-immigrants-live-in-southern-california-than-anywhere-else-in-us/) (of which the vast majority are hispanic) out of 14 million hispanics living in SoCal according to the 2010 census.  So about 10% are undocumented.

One of the biggest issues for many of these families with undocumented members is a major distrust of the "system" and a desire to be somewhat anonymous.  The coaches/admins don't want to be live-scanned if undocumented.  The leaders of the leagues and clubs don't want to have to form a 501(c)(3) and undergo the IRS scrutiny and hassle.

The above are the challenges of getting these kids/families into the Federation's youth affiliates.  Its not racism by the USSF, but the realities that many of these kids and their families are afraid or unwilling to enter the system any why should they when there are plenty of leagues operating outside of the US Youth Soccer/Cal South or AYSO or U.S. Club (the 3 big USSF youth council members).

To top every thing off, the President then just drove many of these families to further distrust the "system" with its current "Dreamer / DACA" policies.

My point is Pay-2-Play is just one element of the problem, the US immigration system is another major element when looking at hispanic players that should also be addressed.  The article misses a great opportunity to look at the entire problem.


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## push_up (May 20, 2018)

All of these fake 'problems' would be eliminated if the illegals would immigrate to the USA LEGALLY.  Oh, and by the way, MSN, it is not a 'system' it is a set of laws that undergirds our representative republic.


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## INFAMEE (May 20, 2018)

MWN said:


> I have to say that the article represents why journalism is dying in America.  An entire article quoting two hispanic athletes, with no critical thought/challenges to the claims to these athletes claims.  Conclusory statements that are not challenged or supported by any factual claims (lack of representation in the USSF?  What USSF programs exist to reach out? What is the USSF's response?)
> 
> The author of the article demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the role the USSF plays and the legal limitations imposed on the USSF by the USOC.  For example, the author cites the amount of money the MLS (not the USSF) charges and then argues that money should be diverted from the for-profit MLS to non-profit academies associated with the MLS, not realizing these are different legal entities.  The author cites european academies and doesn't once mention why the system doesn't exist in the US (hint ... the answer is solidarity and training fees).
> 
> ...


I'm not about to read your garbage again, dude.

For someone who likes to share information all day in this forum you sure as hell no nothing about the clubs you participate in.

Arsenal FC Academy are not full funded. Jeez


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## Justafan (May 20, 2018)

push_up said:


> All of these fake 'problems' would be eliminated if the illegals would immigrate to the USA LEGALLY.  Oh, and by the way, MSN, it is not a 'system' it is a set of laws that undergirds our representative republic.


Relax Push_up, you do realize there’s never been a “line” to do America’s dirty work right?  

Oh yes, with respect to the nation of laws, someone in the WH doesn’t seem to think so. Gottta pick one or the other, you can’t have it both ways.

And just a little reminder, despite having “illegals” for over 150 years in California, California has SOMEHOW managed to become the 7th largest economy in the world and almost double the next two states, Texas and New York.  (Hmmm, what do all of these three states have in common?).


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## JJP (May 24, 2018)

Can we stop this doom and gloom?  The fact of the matter is that soccer rises from a talent pyramid in a hotbed area that’s seeped with soccer culture.  What I mean by this is, an area that produces a couple of world class players at the top of a pyramid will produce several high quality pros at the second level of the pyramid, lots of pro level players at the third level of the pyramid, countless semi-pro level players at the fourth level and so on.

There needs to be an infrastructure to support every level of the pyramid so that talent can compete at each level, and the cream can rise to the top.  If you look at Europe and S. America, you have top level clubs, weaker clubs in top divisions, division 2 clubs, division 3 clubs, semi-pro clubs.  There is a forest with many trees and branches where talent can be discovered, honed, and passed up on the pyramid.

In America we have a few sparse branches.  Talent can’t get better on its own.  Talent has to play with talent and compete with equivalent or better talent.  The talent develops here up to a point and then stagnates.

I think that’s pretty freaking obvious.  Who has Galaxy Academy produced?  Gyasi Zardes?  He’s a great athlete but not a great soccer player.  I keep hearing Dallas FC touted as the best academy, but who have they produced that was a special player?  I can’t think of even one guy.

My point is if the top of our talent development period is that bad, then the lower levels of our pyramid are going to be even worse.

It’s not going to change until we improve the soccer culture and build a forest of clubs, leagues, etc.


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## MWN (May 24, 2018)

@JJP,
The "tree" analogy is good.  Flip it on its head and consider it a root structure, we have at best 3 branches, whereas England has 14+.  But, I think its a mistake to look at the youth clubs and ask "who have we produced."  These youth programs age out at 18 and then its up to the "pro" level to develop, knowing that these players will reach their professional peak at age 26/27+.  Moreover, much of our best talent chooses college over a professional soccer career because its the wiser move.  There is little incentive to join the "pro ranks" in the US.

When you look at the premise of the article "US Soccer is a for-profit business" its demonstrates just how out-of-touch the author is to the realities.  In the US, we are not for-profit when it comes to youth talent.  Europe, Africa, Latin America ... all for profit.  In the US we have stripped the "for profit" aspect from the youth game by expressly refusing to administer the FIFA solidarity payments and training fees.  These fees and the popularity of the sport in other countries drive the youth programs ... here in the US, without this profit source, clubs are forced to rely on the single source ... parents.  Here is an article/author that understands: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/10/us-mens-soccer-gulati-ussf-mls-solidarity-fees.


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## reno114 (May 24, 2018)

Here is my two cents, as the father of a boy, who recently joined a team in the "Mexican League" and is also playing club soccer, I can only give my novice opinion, on my observations of this league. 
In the "Mexican League", I have noticed the passion and love these boy's have for just playing soccer. The families of these boy's have been very gracious and welcoming to us and I have noticed how supportive they are of their son's desire to just simply play.
 I have also noticed during games, the individual creativity, touch and confidence in how they play and how intense and fast paced the games are in this league. 
It is my opinion there are boy's who display the ability to excel in club soccer, but for what ever reason choose not to. It is mind boggling and baffling to think of how many boy's play in leagues throughout America , that are not sanctioned by the USSF, but never get the opportunity to showcase their talent. Sadly, with this amount of boy's playing, the U.S. will never be competitive on the international stage.


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## Grace T. (May 29, 2018)

I think the "immigrants can't afford club soccer" argument is a bit overstated.  There are lots of Latino dominated teams coming out of the San Fernando Valley, for example.  And we had a real nice chat with one teen and his family at the Galaxy game that played for a top team in San Diego (kid had some great advice for my son).   So they are out there.

The real problem, as I've said before, is time...with both parents working it's often incredibly hard to get the kids to practice.  One of the team's my son tried out for was minority-dominated...some incredibly talented kids but many were missing practices and practices got scrubbed because of transport issues (even sometimes cars breaking down).  Then on top of missing practices, working class kids can't afford the fancy camps and trainers that more upscale families have.  Finally, since our system is geared for college players, unless the kid is something real special, grades are a key component to college and the working-class kids may not have access to a great school (America actually would have some of the top performing schools in the world if we took only our suburban schools....our urban and rural public schools pull the national average way down) so that when it comes time to go to college, that's the end of their careers.  And college can be difficult to afford (since male soccer scholarships are fewer and far between than football scholarships).  And as MWN noted, the live scan thing can be a real problem too for potential coaches and refs.

Even getting them into the starter system can be an issue unless their local AYSO or other rec league is minority dominated.  My son's second AYSO team had an immigrant family in it.  He played very rough.  Got tut-tutted a lot by the other largely upper middle class family.  As their ref, I often found myself having to blow the whistle for the kid for rough contact.  And they were, because they were uncomfortable with their English, reluctant to socialize with the other families (even us, given our more upperclass Spanish accents).  If we had a local Latino league, I'm sure they would have gone there instead.  And once in the Latino league, they might not know about the opportunities of club soccers....we were at the beach this weekend at a largely Hispanic park....my son was practicing his keeping and some kids noticed him and called him over to play with them a pickup game.  Chatted with some of the other parents...they had no idea about club soccer.


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## push_up (May 30, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> ...practices got scrubbed because of transport issues (even sometimes cars breaking down).
> 
> ....the working-class kids may not have access to a great school (America actually would have some of the top performing schools in the world if we took only our suburban schools....our urban public schools pull the national average way down).
> 
> ...


Wow.  Three incredibly racist statements by Graca T. aka Roseanne Barr!


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## Grace T. (May 30, 2018)

push_up said:


> Wow.  Three incredibly racist statements by Graca T. aka Roseanne Barr!


If Rosie were African American.    Here's another tidbit....Latinos aren't a monolithic block and in fact their can be a great deal of hatred between groups (Catholics v. Evangelicals, one nationality v another, early arrivals v later arrivals, how they came [legal v. illegal], the amount of Native American blood and don't even get me started on those of Spanish from Spain or Portuguese from Portugal descent).  I've written before how my father used to play for an adult Latino league....the rivalry between nations was ridiculous (as were the class divisions)....1 year and he hung up his boots.


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## reno114 (May 31, 2018)

In a nutshell, the basic factors for soccer success are as follows, passion, opportunity and development. Break down each one of these factors to solve the problem of our under-performing International team.

I scratch my noggin wondering how countries with a population of 10 million people can defeat a team representing the most powerful country in the world, with over 330 million people.

The World Cup is starting in a couple of weeks and here we sit at home, something needs to change.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

reno114 said:


> In a nutshell, the basic factors for soccer success are as follows, passion, opportunity and development. Break down each one of these factors to solve the problem of our under-performing International team.
> 
> I scratch my noggin wondering how countries with a population of 10 million people can defeat a team representing the most powerful country in the world, with over 330 million people.
> 
> The World Cup is starting in a couple of weeks and here we sit at home, something needs to change.


We are getting slightly off topic, but all you need to do is look at the roster of the US Team that lost and examine where each of those National Team players trained/play the previous year.  The US Men's team (Bruce Arena) selected the majority of players from a substandard league (the MLS), rather than relying primarily on US nationals that play at the highest level (Premiere, Bundesliga, Champions, Ligue 1, Superligean, Serie A, etc.)

We had eight players the played as starters or subs who played/trained the previous year in the MLS:

Tim Howard - Colorado Rapids MLS
Matt Besler - Spoting KC MLS
Kellyn Acosta - FC Dallas MLS Sub
Michael Bradley - Toronto FC MLS
Paul Arriola - DC United MLS
Darlington Nagbe - Atlanta United FC MLS
Benny Feihaber - Spoting KC MLS Sub
Jozy Altidore - Toronto FC MLS

We had five players that played Internationally:
DeAndre Yedlin - Newcastle Untd Premiere
Christian Pulisic - Borussia Dortmund Bundesliga
Bobby Wood - Hamburg SV Bundesliga
Omar Gonzalez - Pachuca (MX) Liga MX
Jorge Villafana - Santos Laguna (MX) Liga MX

The average talent level in the MLS is on par with the second (EFLC) or third level (EFL One) of the English leagues and could be worse.  I would love to see if the Galaxy could compete against Wigan Athletic or Stoke City or any of the other clubs in the EFLC.

Getting back on point.  We have a tremendous number of American national players with Latin American roots that are not in the US Soccer structure because of a variety of reasons that range from depressed socioeconomic status to avoidance of the system for legal reasons.  Given the fact that the US professional level is substandard, we should embrace the recent efforts of Liga MX to penetrate the US market.  If we really, truly wanted to help these American players we actively petition FIFA to relax Article 19.


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## reno114 (May 31, 2018)

I do not disagree with you insight, I do have to mention that the players you refer to, that were selected from the MLS, all had the opportunity to play in Mexico or Europe. What does that say about their developement?



MWN said:


> We are getting slightly off topic, but all you need to do is look at the roster of the US Team that lost and examine where each of those National Team players trained/play the previous year.  The US Men's team (Bruce Arena) selected the majority of players from a substandard league (the MLS), rather than relying primarily on US nationals that play at the highest level (Premiere, Bundesliga, Champions, Ligue 1, Superligean, Serie A, etc.)
> 
> We had eight players the played as starters or subs who played/trained the previous year in the MLS:
> 
> ...


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## El Clasico (May 31, 2018)

MWN said:


> We are getting slightly off topic, but all you need to do is look at the roster of the US Team that lost and examine where each of those National Team players trained/play the previous year.  The US Men's team (Bruce Arena) selected the majority of players from a substandard league (the MLS), rather than relying primarily on US nationals that play at the highest level (Premiere, Bundesliga, Champions, Ligue 1, Superligean, Serie A, etc.)
> 
> This I agree with!
> 
> We have a tremendous number of American national players with Latin American roots that are not in the US Soccer structure because of a variety of reasons that range from depressed socioeconomic status *to avoidance of the system for legal reasons.*


I have no idea what this means.  Please explain.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> I have no idea what this means.  Please explain.


It summarizes in a few words what I wrote earlier in this thread:



> Taking a step back, let's look at Cal South (a US Youth Soccer affiliate, US Youth Soccer is a USSF Youth Council member) and the inability of Cal South to get the Mexican Leagues operating outside the USSF/US Youth Soccer/Cal South structure inside the structure. The objections/issue Cal South has encountered are:
> 
> 1) Club/Leagues must be 501(c)(3) non-profits.
> 2) Coaches/Admins/Managers must be "live scanned"
> ...


With approximately 10% being of the target population being undocumented, their legal status creates barriers for many families.  Typically what we see (my experience with about 50 to 60 players/families) is that for this group the youth player was born in the US, but mom and dad were not and are not in the US legally, as such, there is a distrust to do anything that might put them in the "system."  These families have concerns filling out a mandatory US Youth Soccer - Player Application and will absolutely refuse to be live scanned.  How many kids simply won't sign up for US Soccer affiliated programs (AYSO, US Youth, US Club, etc.) because mom and/or dad are undocumented?  To make matters worse, there is a tremendous distrust of the system with the current administration, especially in light of the DACA/Dreamers about face.

Speaking of SoCal, the "Mexican Leagues" successfully operate outside of the US Soccer / US Youth Soccer-Cal South structure.  A 2013 article estimated there were about "_...100,000 independent Hispanic soccer league players in the L.A. DMA participate in year-long seasons on both weekdays and weekends... _" (Article)  They don't require the admins, coaches, managers, referees, etc. to go through a "Live Scan" background check process; there are no player cards, the coaches can be undocumented, the travel is limited to the community, thus, families are not required to move past the Oceanside or Temecula immigration checkpoints, the costs ($25-$100) are far less than traditional "clubs" and the level of play is very high.

Programs such as, Alianza de Futbol Hispano, which operates outside Federation oversight has found great success in addressing the needs of the US Hispanic by relaxing the rules and providing a path to the Latin American professional leagues/teams.


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## reno114 (May 31, 2018)

I would not solely blame the recent new administration for the lack of hispanics not gravitating towards USSF run leagues, this issue is not just recent, but has been going for generations. It boils down to the financial cost of playing club.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

reno114 said:


> I do not disagree with you[r] insight, I do have to mention that the players you refer to, that were selected from the MLS, all had the opportunity to play in Mexico or Europe. What does that say about their development?


It says that these players chased the money instead of development and are not our future.  The US Federation shot its own foot by allowing Bruce Arena to reverse Klinsmann's position.  If you recall, back when Klinsmann was the boss he encouraged players to avoid the MLS and play oversees or in Latin America.  He derided players for returning to a substandard league.  He actively feuded with the MLS/Don Garber when Dempsey returned to Seattle and Bradley to Toronto. (See, Klinsmann not happy with American returns to MLS (Oct. 2014)). 

With regard to Bradley and Dempsy:


> Clint Dempsey’s move from Tottenham Hotspur to Seattle Sounders and Michael Bradley’s switch from AS Roma to Toronto FC were greeted with some fanfare by MLS but Klinsmann says it may be tough for the players to maintain their standards of play.
> 
> “There’s nothing I can do about it. I made it clear with Clint’s move back and Michael’s move back that it’s going to be very difficult to keep the same level that they experienced at the places where they were. It’s just reality. It’s just being honest,” Klinsmann said ahead of Tuesday’s friendly against Honduras.


With regard to Jozy Altidore:


> There have been suggestions that Altidore may be tempted by a move to MLS but while Klinsmann did not address that directly his comments about the player indicate he would prefer him to stay in Europe.
> 
> “I want Jozy to get through the difficult time at Sunderland and maybe make a big step one day to a Champions League team in Europe because that’s where the top players in the world play,” he said.


Klinsmann had his issues and ultimately lost the battle with the MLS and was pressured by Suni Gullati and the Federation to choose substandard players from a substandard league.  But one thing is absolutely crystal clear, Klinsmann was right when it comes to where US Players train and play.  From the 2017 Article "The Mass Return of USMNT Players to MLS Was a Catastrophic Mistake"


> In the wake of the USMNT’s utterly pathetic defeat to Trinidad and Tobago and subsequent bouncing from the World Cup, perhaps no man on the planet has greater license to say “I told you so” than former head coach Jurgen Klinsmann. That’s not to say that Klinsmann shouldn’t have been fired or that he would’ve steered the U.S. to the World Cup, it’s just to say that he’s ultimately been vindicated in his criticisms of Major League Soccer and American player mentality.
> ***​Klinsmann now appears to be a soothsayer. The German never shied over his desire to see more Americans play their club ball in Europe, and it’s obvious that players like Matt Besler, Darlington Nagbe and Jordan Morris electing to stay in MLS rather than agitate for a move abroad will have irked him as well.
> 
> “*That talent is not there yet when it comes to the national team, when it gets to big tournaments, when it gets serious,*” said Klinsmann before the Copa America Centenario. “*Whatever path they took the last two years, we’ve got to make it clear to them you’ve got to do more…What is going on on the goalkeeper front? Tim Howard is 37. Guzan is 31. Nick Rimando is 36. Where is our next wave? Holy moly. We lost that generation that didn’t qualify for [the] London [Olympics]. What happened to the Bill Hamids, the Sean Johnsons, the Break Sheas, the Mix Diskeruds*?”
> ...


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## El Clasico (May 31, 2018)

@MWN

I guess that our only agreement is that we both believe the current club soccer structure and Cal South discriminate against the inner city/poorer demographics by maintaining their higher barriers to participate in "club soccer" by creating and enforcing silly rules that only serve to discriminate. The requirement of a 501(c)3 is a perfect example of that. Look at all the mega clubs getting rich with their non profits while the minorities are kept out because they put the money into the kids and don't have the thousands needed to jump the hurdles.

As for the other things mentioned, all of my kids started or played in the Mexican leagues and we are still involved and I have never, ever heard anyone say that they don't want to play club soccer because whitey mandates that they fill out an application. Is your thought process that we think that if we fill out a cal south player application that ICE is going to get a hold of them and track everyone down and deport them?  Or maybe the coaches don't want to get live scanned since they are all felons and ICE will come after them?  I am lost on your logic and I think that you are way off base and out of touch with reality. Again, as I have said before, US soccer can't fix our lack of talent problems because they (and their followers) don't understand what the problems are.

I do agree that transportation is more difficult but we all manage to find a way to get to where we need to go IF we want to. Our kids are worth it to us.

Not to me, but your reasoning would likely be pretty insulting to a lot of people.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

reno114 said:


> I would not solely blame the recent new administration for the lack of hispanics not gravitating towards USSF run leagues, this issue is not just recent, but has been going for generations. It boils down to the financial cost of playing club.


Which is why I wrote "We have a tremendous number of American national players with Latin American roots that are not in the US Soccer structure because of *a variety of reasons* that range from *depressed socioeconomic status to avoidance of the system for legal reasons*."  There isn't just one reason the US Soccer is not successful in getting these players into Federation affiliated programs (the point of the article the OP posted).



El Clasico said:


> @MWN
> 
> Is your thought process that we think that if we fill out a cal south player application that ICE is going to get a hold of them and track everyone down and deport them?  Or maybe the coaches don't want to get live scanned since they are all felons and ICE will come after them?  I am lost on your logic and I think that you are way off base and out of touch with reality.


My comments come from conversations with Cal South specifically regarding challenges Cal South faces in getting the approximately 100,000+ players and coaches in the SoCal Mexican Leagues into Cal South/US Youth Soccer and from personal experiences sponsoring the children of immigrant families.  The challenges are not singular, but many.  Cost is a challenge for many.  Undocumented status is a challenge for some (about 10%).  The vast majority of undocumented immigrants are hard working and law abiding people (except for that immigration problem).

Last fall I arranged for 5 Hispanic youth players to play in a local recreational league (cost was $85/kid).  I watched these kids all play soccer every day after school at a nearby field.  They ranged in ages from 6 to 12 (brothers, cousins, friends).  After watching these kids playing almost everyday for about a month while taking my kid to club practices, I approached and asked if they were going to sign up for the local recreational league and all but one said they couldn't.  "Why?"  "My parents can't afford it."  Next day I made arrangements with the recreational league and handed each one the "US Youth Soccer" application and told them it they had a scholarship to play for free, but that I needed the applications back before the end of the week as registration was closing.  I got back 3.  When I asked about the other 2, I was told by one of the kids that they were brothers and the parents would not sign the papers because they (parents and kids) were not here legally.   We (5 kids) and I walked to the "brothers" trailer (nearby trailer park) and thus began my negotiation.  Long story short, through my 12 year old interpreter , I successfully got the 2 brothers registered by having the mom sign the application and listing address for the parent/guardian as the 12 year old's address/trailer.  If I didn't game the application/system, these 2 kids would not have played the fall.

Now, my anecdotal evidence may be just an exception and I found the only 2 undocumented kids in SoCal with parents that refused to sign up their kids because Cal South requires a written application with their names and address.  I doubt it because I have been told by Cal South that my personal experience is not unique.  In addition, my work with youth recreational clubs and leagues over the years has told me that there are many families with illegal parents that distrust the system and avoid signing up their kids in youth sports.

Bottom line, there are many challenges bringing Hispanic youth soccer players into US Soccer affiliated programs.  Undocumented status is just 1 of those challenges, so is, cost, travel, working burdens, etc.


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## reno114 (May 31, 2018)

100,000 thousand hispanic kids in the Los Angeles area, in the un-sanctioned " Mexican Leagues" is a huge untapped pool of players. There seems to be a lack of interest on both, the parents of talented, passionate hispanic players and the USSF to connect with each other. I am wondering how talented inner city black kids become successful in sports like basketball and football?


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## younothat (May 31, 2018)

reno114 said:


> 100,000 thousand hispanic kids in the Los Angeles area, in the un-sanctioned " Mexican Leagues" is a huge untapped pool of players. There seems to be a lack of interest on both, the parents of talented, passionate hispanic players and the USSF to connect with each other. I am wondering how talented inner city black kids become successful in sports like basketball and football?


That number is on the low end,  if you consider all of LA county I heard the number of kids playing in Latin leagues be it at a  school, park, warehouse or industrial artificial grass pitches, gyms,  etc is closer to 1,000,000 youths from ages U8-U16

When I was walking around at Man City Cup I thought there is real divide, not trying to judge a book but its cover but  socioeconomic status seems to be a dividing line and we need to do a better job of integration of all, we want soccer to unite not divide.


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## InTheValley (May 31, 2018)

reno114 said:


> In a nutshell, the basic factors for soccer success are as follows, passion, opportunity and development. Break down each one of these factors to solve the problem of our under-performing International team.
> 
> I scratch my noggin wondering how countries with a population of 10 million people can defeat a team representing the most powerful country in the world, with over 330 million people.
> 
> The World Cup is starting in a couple of weeks and here we sit at home, something needs to change.


Why does anything need to change?  Most Americans are perfectly ok that we’re mediocre at men’s soccer but great at basketball, football, baseball, swimming, track and field, lacrosse, wrestling, and a bunch of other things.  We suck at cricket, and what makes soccer more important than cricket?

Trying to improve the MNT is a waste of time and money.  If our free market doesn’t produce great soccer players, great soccer players aren’t worth producing here.


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## reno114 (May 31, 2018)

I guess you have care about soccer, to care about the mediocrity of our International team.



InTheValley said:


> Why does anything need to change?  Most Americans are perfectly ok that we’re mediocre at men’s soccer but great at basketball, football, baseball, swimming, track and field, lacrosse, wrestling, and a bunch of other things.  We suck at cricket, and what makes soccer more important than cricket?
> 
> Trying to improve the MNT is a waste of time and money.  If our free market doesn’t produce great soccer players, great soccer players aren’t worth producing here.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Why does anything need to change?  Most Americans are perfectly ok that we’re mediocre at men’s soccer but great at basketball, football, baseball, swimming, track and field, lacrosse, wrestling, and a bunch of other things.  We suck at cricket, and what makes soccer more important than cricket?
> 
> Trying to improve the MNT is a waste of time and money.  If our free market doesn’t produce great soccer players, great soccer players aren’t worth producing here.


Fundamentally I agree.  Soccer is more important than cricket from a pure "free market economy" standpoint.  There is lots and lots of money in soccer (Billions) and not so much in cricket.  The job of our Federation is 3 fold: Field the National Teams for international competition; provide oversight as the USOC National Governing Body for the sport; and promote professional and recreational youth and adult soccer.  In short, grow the sport.

I look at this differently.  The USMNT and USWNT provide the lion's share of the revenue to the federation.  Losing the group stage of the World Cup is worth about $8 million dollars and every team going gets $1.5M to prepare for group.  So, the failure of the MNT was about a $9.5M hit, which would have gone to the Federation.

The thing is, the USMNT pay very little towards training these players.  Training is effectively left to the pro leagues, so really all the MNT needs to do is pick players that represent the best American products and if done right every 4 years, we should make tens of millions of dollars.

Trying to fix the MLS is not the job of US Soccer.
Trying to protect the MLS (a for profit league) is not the job of US Soccer.
Picking the best US National players from the top leagues is the job.  It failed miserably because is cozied up to the substandard MLS.


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## JJP (May 31, 2018)

MWN said:


> Last fall I arranged for 5 Hispanic youth players to play in a local recreational league (cost was $85/kid).  I watched these kids all play soccer every day after school at a nearby field.  They ranged in ages from 6 to 12 (brothers, cousins, friends).  After watching these kids playing almost everyday for about a month while taking my kid to club practices, I approached and asked if they were going to sign up for the local recreational league and all but one said they couldn't.  "Why?"  "My parents can't afford it."  Next day I made arrangements with the recreational league and handed each one the "US Youth Soccer" application and told them it they had a scholarship to play for free, but that I needed the applications back before the end of the week as registration was closing.  I got back 3.  When I asked about the other 2, I was told by one of the kids that they were brothers and the parents would not sign the papers because they (parents and kids) were not here legally.   We (5 kids) and I walked to the "brothers" trailer (nearby trailer park) and thus began my negotiation.  Long story short, through my 12 year old interpreter , I successfully got the 2 brothers registered by having the mom sign the application and listing address for the parent/guardian as the 12 year old's address/trailer.  If I didn't game the application/system, these 2 kids would not have played the fall.


I applaud you for getting those kids scholarships and into a league, you did a great thing.

I’ve seen some tremendously talented players come out of Mexican leagues and tear up CRL and academy.  Who knows how much more talent is in the various Mexican leagues that could play at a high level?  I would bet a lot, there are so many kids in that community that play all the time and watch hi level soccer.


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## outside! (Jun 1, 2018)

JJP said:


> I applaud you for getting those kids scholarships and into a league, you did a great thing.
> 
> I’ve seen some tremendously talented players come out of Mexican leagues and tear up CRL and academy.  Who knows how much more talent is in the various Mexican leagues that could play at a high level?  I would bet a lot, there are so many kids in that community that play all the time and watch hi level soccer.


I would be curious to know how many females play in the Mexican leagues and if they ever transition to club soccer.


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## Justafan (Jun 1, 2018)

outside! said:


> I would be curious to know how many females play in the Mexican leagues and if they ever transition to club soccer.


Excellent question.  My instinct is that it’s not many.  Even though there are a lot of boys in Mexican leagues that don’t go club, you still see tons more all Hispanic boys “club” teams than girls. This may be cultural thing in that not as many “girls” of immigrants are even allowed to play.  However, even if this is the case, I believe things will change soon.  Mexico now has a professional women’s soccer league so perceptions will change.  If it ever does come about. it would be very interesting to see if there is any difference in the style of play.


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## JJP (Jun 1, 2018)

reno114 said:


> 100,000 thousand hispanic kids in the Los Angeles area, in the un-sanctioned " Mexican Leagues" is a huge untapped pool of players. There seems to be a lack of interest on both, the parents of talented, passionate hispanic players and the USSF to connect with each other. I am wondering how talented inner city black kids become successful in sports like basketball and football?


Basketball and football “development” is completely unlike soccer.  Can’t compare the 3 sports.  Learning to control the ball with your feet vs. hands, running for 90 mins. with only 3 subs vs. unlimited subs.  People with great measurables dominate football and b-ball, less so in soccer.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jun 16, 2018)

outside! said:


> I would be curious to know how many females play in the Mexican leagues and if they ever transition to club soccer.


Both my girls started out in "Mexican leagues" as crumb crunchers, playing with boys the same age.
They both transitioned to all girl's "club" soccer programs as they got older.


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## outside! (Jun 16, 2018)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Both my girls started out in "Mexican leagues" as crumb crunchers, playing with boys the same age.
> They both transitioned to all girl's "club" soccer programs as they got older.


Were there many other female players? Were there any girls divisions for the olders?


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## Ricky Fandango (Jun 16, 2018)

outside! said:


> Were there many other female players? Were there any girls divisions for the olders?


There was usually one or two girls on a team, but sometimes mine were the only ones.
To be honest, on the girl's side, the competition is much deeper in the higher club leagues like ECNL.
I think the top players get cherry picked by the big clubs.
The skill and speed they learned from the boys was very good for their development at a young age, but as they get older the boys just get too fast.


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## outside! (Jun 16, 2018)

It would be great to somehow allow the best teams from the "Mexican Leagues" to compete against club teams. It would give some exposure to a lot of male players. It is unfortunate that for all the soccer culture in the Latino communities that it is focused almost solely on the boys. I am sure there are lots of girls that could be great players in those same communities but they do not get much of an opportunity.


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## Real Deal (Jun 16, 2018)

JJP said:


> Basketball and football “development” is completely unlike soccer.  Can’t compare the 3 sports.  Learning to control the ball with your feet vs. hands, running for 90 mins. with only 3 subs vs. unlimited subs.  People with great measurables dominate football and b-ball, less so in soccer.


Yes, the lack of measurables in soccer leaves all positions- besides maybe forward- subjective. This is why it's really hard to identify the best players at young ages-- because the best _soccer player_s may not be the most impactful players at younger ages.


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## JJP (Jun 20, 2018)

Real Deal said:


> Yes, the lack of measurables in soccer leaves all positions- besides maybe forward- subjective. This is why it's really hard to identify the best players at young ages-- because the best _soccer player_s may not be the most impactful players at younger ages.


Yes, there is a huge mental element in soccer that enables some very unathletic players to be good soccer players.  There’s certain physical measurables you MUST have to be successful in American football or basketball.  If you can’t jump, you won’t even make a good high school basketball team because top players will isolate you and dunk on you or shoot over you.

But there are slow, small guys in soccer that can be successful because they are so good at finding pockets of space when defenders are distracted and get off a good shot, or cross or thru ball.  And it’s easier to disguise them on defense because there are 11 players on the pitch, and you can use the faster players to cover for the slow player.

That being said, I’m all in favor of dumping any slow player and replacing him with a faster player ASAP.  I’ve never  seen a smart, slow player get faster.  I’ve seen a lot of stupid fast players get smarter.  Why waste time with guys whose ceilings are permanently low?  Give the playing time and experience to the athlete who can become a soccer player, not the soccer player who will never be an athlete.


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## timbuck (Jun 20, 2018)

outside! said:


> It would be great to somehow allow the best teams from the "Mexican Leagues" to compete against club teams. It would give some exposure to a lot of male players. It is unfortunate that for all the soccer culture in the Latino communities that it is focused almost solely on the boys. I am sure there are lots of girls that could be great players in those same communities but they do not get much of an opportunity.


No way Us DA would allow that to happen.  The closed league won’t even let academy teams play against other club teams sanctioned by the same federation.


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## Real Deal (Jun 20, 2018)

JJP said:


> Yes, there is a huge mental element in soccer that enables some very unathletic players to be good soccer players.  There’s certain physical measurables you MUST have to be successful in American football or basketball.  If you can’t jump, you won’t even make a good high school basketball team because top players will isolate you and dunk on you or shoot over you.
> 
> But there are slow, small guys in soccer that can be successful because they are so good at finding pockets of space when defenders are distracted and get off a good shot, or cross or thru ball.  And it’s easier to disguise them on defense because there are 11 players on the pitch, and you can use the faster players to cover for the slow player.
> 
> That being said, I’m all in favor of dumping any slow player and replacing him with a faster player ASAP.  I’ve never  seen a smart, slow player get faster.  I’ve seen a lot of stupid fast players get smarter.  Why waste time with guys whose ceilings are permanently low?  Give the playing time and experience to the athlete who can become a soccer player, not the soccer player who will never be an athlete.


Not sure where you are seeing small, slow guys being successful.  The smaller guys have to be fast or they'd get killed.  The big guys need agility or they get killed.  Athletes are not necessarily big, ask any gymnast.  A good soccer player has got to be a good athlete-- small or big-- but they also have to be "smart" at soccer.  Really - look at college or pro rosters - they are not really all that "big"

And I beg to differ-- you cannot make a "stupid" player "smart"   You can make a smart athlete better at soccer though-- but it takes a lot of dedication on the part of the athlete.  This big=fast and athletic, and small=slow and maybe skilled???,  argument is silly and always indicative of why we struggle at this sport.

It's also indicative of why the lack of measurables makes it harder to ID players, since, obviously, we all have differing views on what makes a player special.


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## espola (Jun 21, 2018)

Real Deal said:


> Not sure where you are seeing small, slow guys being successful.  The smaller guys have to be fast or they'd get killed.  The big guys need agility or they get killed.  Athletes are not necessarily big, ask any gymnast.  A good soccer player has got to be a good athlete-- small or big-- but they also have to be "smart" at soccer.  Really - look at college or pro rosters - they are not really all that "big"
> 
> And I beg to differ-- you cannot make a "stupid" player "smart"   You can make a smart athlete better at soccer though-- but it takes a lot of dedication on the part of the athlete.  This big=fast and athletic, and small=slow and maybe skilled???,  argument is silly and always indicative of why we struggle at this sport.
> 
> It's also indicative of why the lack of measurables makes it harder to ID players, since, obviously, we all have differing views on what makes a player special.


I was surprised the first time I heard a well-known coach describe a player as "athletic" and realized he meant it as a disparagement.


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## reno114 (Jun 21, 2018)

I find it interesting, while watching Peru vs France, that Peru's leftback Luis Advincula is considered the fastest player in the world, yet he was loaned out to "Lobos Buap", from "Tigres", in the Mexican La Liga. Athleticism is a common important quality, but the " it " factor is just as important.


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