# How will this affect womens sports in college?



## Lavey29

Curious how this will affect female college athletes? How would you feel if your daughter missed her opportunity to play college soccer because of this new change?


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## happy9

Lavey29 said:


> Curious how this will affect female college athletes? How would you feel if your daughter missed her opportunity to play college soccer because of this new change?View attachment 9985


A new era in recruiting.

I'm interested to see how this is painted as benefiting and supporting women/girls in general.


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## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> Curious how this will affect female college athletes? How would you feel if your daughter missed her opportunity to play college soccer because of this new change?View attachment 9985


The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.

The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.

Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.

There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.

I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.

You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


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## warrior49

Insane. You can cut the thorns off a rose but it's still a rose.


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## TOSDCI

EOTL said:


> The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.
> 
> The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.
> 
> Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.
> 
> There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.
> 
> I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.
> 
> You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


FYI....transgender is different than gay.   Again, GO AWAY!


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## Lavey29

warrior49 said:


> Insane. You can cut the thorns off a rose but it's still a rose.


Absolutely,  I'm sure there are gay youth soccer players who can not afford college so does allow them a backdoor (no pun intended) way in to scholarships at the very liberal colleges?

It's like saying you are a native American on your college application when in fact you are not right?


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## EOTL

warrior49 said:


> Insane. You can cut the thorns off a rose but it's still a rose.


Any more chicken little homophobes gonna freak out that the sky is falling? Should I wait a few minutes before I start raking you over the coals?


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## Lavey29

EOTL said:


> The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.
> 
> The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.
> 
> Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.
> 
> There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.
> 
> I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.
> 
> You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


Very bigotry of you as usual.


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## Lavey29

Pretty much sums it up





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						Redirect Notice
					





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## EOTL

TOSDCI said:


> FYI....transgender is different than gay.   Again, GO AWAY!


And if you actually read the executive order, dimbf**k, it specifically applies to sexual orientation as well. Equality for the LGBTQ community is not controversial, especially when literally nothing in the order says schools must allow dudes to play on women’s soccer teams if they want to. It’s just fake hysteria to scare you.

You bigots have been saying this forever.  The reason your kid doesn’t end up playing D1 will be because she isn’t good enough, pure and simple.


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## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> Absolutely,  I'm sure there are gay youth soccer players who can not afford college so does allow them a backdoor (no pun intended) way in to scholarships at the very liberal colleges?
> 
> It's like saying you are a native American on your college application when in fact you are not right?


This is great. Poor dudes are going to start putting on dresses and lipstick to get scholarships to play soccer, and also going through two years of conversion therapy. And Neil McGuire is going to start recruiting these dudes from MLS Academies so he can get an unfair advantage in the Pac-12. 

What’s really weird, though, is this has been the NCAA’s policy in trans athletes for years, yet not a single trans soccer player has ever done this. But now that there’s a piece of paper stating that schools mist do what the US Supreme Court said is already the law, the floodgates are about to open.


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## TOSDCI

EOTL said:


> And if you actually read the executive order, dimbf**k, it specifically applies to sexual orientation as well. Equality for the LGBTQ community is not controversial, especially when literally nothing in the order says schools must allow dudes to play on women’s soccer teams if they want to. It’s just fake hysteria to scare you.
> 
> You bigots have been saying this forever.  The reason your kid doesn’t end up playing D1 will be because she isn’t good enough, pure and simple.


Ummm....FYI....you were the one saying gay.  The headline referenced transgender.  And you have no evidence that I have ever written anything that could remotely described at bigoted.  Can you say the same?  UMMM...that's a hard no!


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## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> Pretty much sums it up
> 
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> Redirect Notice
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> www.google.com


Losing on the track and in the courtroom!  
She was so “elite” that she has been “offered a spot” at a school that came on last in the mighty CAA conference. She lost in HS because she’s slow.


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## EOTL

TOSDCI said:


> Ummm....FYI....you were the one saying gay.  The headline referenced transgender.  And you have no evidence that I have ever written anything that could remotely described at bigoted.  Can you say the same?  UMMM...that's a hard no!


The original post claims an executive order - that actually only provides equality to all LGBTQ in accordance with existing law - is going to eviscerate women’s sports. Sure, if you ignore what the order really says and does, and misrepresent that it requires that schools allow men to play on women’s, maybe there’s an issue to discuss. But once people who aren’t Q conspiracy theorists and homophobes learn what it really is, as they should, they’ll realize you’re just another crazy bigot on the wrong side of both history and morality.


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## dad4

EOTL -

Live your life as you like.  I don’t care if you are gay, straight, bi, or aromantic.  Nor do I care whether you prefer to wear pants, a dress, or a whiskey barrel.  That’s your business, not mine.

However, if someone developed their muscles and bone structure under male levels of testosterone, then they should not be competing in women’s sports.  It is unfair to those who did not have high testosterone levels during their development.  

If the same person can compete on the men’s side, good for them.


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## Lavey29

Funny how all the womens groups are against this order. Guess they must all be anti gay homophobes too...









						Women's Liberation Front: Biden Executive Order on "Gender Identity" Will Eviscerate Women's Rights
					

WASHINGTON, Jan. 21, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- Feminist organization, Women's Liberation Front (WoLF), is denouncing an executive order signed by President Biden on his first day in office which takes...




					apnews.com


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## EOTL

dad4 said:


> EOTL -
> 
> Live your life as you like.  I don’t care if you are gay, straight, bi, or aromantic.  Nor do I care whether you prefer to wear pants, a dress, or a whiskey barrel.  That’s your business, not mine.
> 
> However, if someone developed their muscles and bone structure under male levels of testosterone, then they should not be competing in women’s sports.  It is unfair to those who did not have high testosterone levels during their development.
> 
> If the same person can compete on the men’s side, good for them.


Wahhhh!!!!!!

Live you life as you like, but if someone has complied with the rules set out by the NCAA, they should be competing as allowable under those rules. If your kid isn’t good enough to take a roster sport from the exactly one trans athlete in history who has ever competed in college women’s soccer, your kid really sucks at soccer.  As it really, really sucks. 

You should bring your complaint to the NCAA, because the executive order that you and your bigoty friends are freaking out about doesn’t say anything about trans athletes competing in women’s sports. I know you want to get a head start on hating Biden, but the least you could do is freak out about things he actually does.


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## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> EOTL -
> 
> Live your life as you like.  I don’t care if you are gay, straight, bi, or aromantic.  Nor do I care whether you prefer to wear pants, a dress, or a whiskey barrel.  That’s your business, not mine.
> 
> However, if someone developed their muscles and bone structure under male levels of testosterone, then they should not be competing in women’s sports.  It is unfair to those who did not have high testosterone levels during their development.
> 
> If the same person can compete on the men’s side, good for them.


It is a combo of a couple of things. 

- Political correctness gone way to far. 
- People scared of saying hey...that is a boy/guy and they should NOT play on girls/womens teams. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. If people said enough of this crap it would end. But people are scared and/or go with the flow. Sheep. 

If you want to wear a dress and makeup and pretend you are a girl/women have at it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I think you are strange...but live your life as you like. 

But when you want to play on my DD soccer team, or play on the women's soccer team, or compete on the womens pro bike circuit (or any sport)...enough is enough. Despite testosterone blockers, etc...if you were born a boy, you have a different physical structure that gives them the advantage. 

The reason many decades ago we created women's sports was because women cannot compete physically against men. Is there an exception here and there? Yes. But as a whole they cannot. 

To now say hey some guy/boy who says he is a women/girl can compete on womens/girls team is just wrong.

Why on Earth people look at photos like this and say...yeah we should let this happen is beyond me. Can we tell who doesn't belong? Any physical difference we should pretend to not notice? 

Look at those photos. You want your kid playing against them? Is that fair? You want your daughter in college playing against them? Fair?

You want to ruin women's sports?


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## happy9

EOTL said:


> The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.
> 
> The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.
> 
> Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.
> 
> There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.
> 
> I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.
> 
> You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


Yikes, you are specially frothy today.   So, to be clear, it's ok by you to have someone that identifies as a woman, but is really a man, compete against women, in high level athletics?  In the case you cited above, those two transgender girls won 15 state titles while undergoing hormone therapy.  The hormone therapy was supposed to level the playing field - obviously didn't.

A few years ago, my daughter was routinely beating up on boys in her age group on the pitch.  It's not even close now.  Do you even futbol bruh?

I know you are a social justice warrior and I expect to hear you call me all kinds of names - bigot, homophobe, etc... According to your own doctrine, Impossible for me to be the first (don't have enough white in me to be a bigot I guess), the second - phhfft, be gay, I don't care.


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## Lavey29

Steroids used to be illegal in sports. Guess not anymore.


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## dk_b

Lavey29 said:


> Curious how this will affect female college athletes? How would you feel if your daughter missed her opportunity to play college soccer because of this new change?View attachment 9985


When I saw your post - before reading the discussion - I was going to answer with sincerity of what I thought and, because I've had this discussion with my daughters (though not today), what they thought.  But it's clear that it's going to turn into a political back and forth and not really about soccer. That's OK but @Dominic should be aware that the more threads like this, the more the entire board is going to be dominated by these discussions and the more you will lose people who are just tired of them (which may be no big deal).  I get it that people are frustrated and anxious w/o youth or college soccer (no discussions about how my kid's team is the only one that plays possession and the others just play kickball) but it seems that every soccer thread goes off the rails.  This one is obviously loaded with a lot of emotion but it could be a really good topic w/o spinning out of control.

So, @Lavey29, if you really wanted answers to your question and a reasonable discussion of the issues, I'm sorry you didn't get that.  On the other hand, if you were looking to throw something provocative out there so that it could get heated with predictable commenters on predictable sides, I guess you did get that.


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## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> It is a combo of a couple of things.
> 
> - Political correctness gone way to far.
> - People scared of saying hey...that is a boy/guy and they should NOT play on girls/womens teams. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. If people said enough of this crap it would end. But people are scared and/or go with the flow. Sheep.
> 
> If you want to wear a dress and makeup and pretend you are a girl/women have at it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I think you are strange...but live your life as you like.
> 
> But when you want to play on my DD soccer team, or play on the women's soccer team, or compete on the womens pro bike circuit (or any sport)...enough is enough. Despite testosterone blockers, etc...if you were born a boy, you have a different physical structure that gives them the advantage.
> 
> The reason many decades ago we created women's sports was because women cannot compete physically against men. Is there an exception here and there? Yes. But as a whole they cannot.
> 
> To now say hey some guy/boy who says he is a women/girl can compete on womens/girls team is just wrong.
> 
> Why on Earth people look at photos like this and say...yeah we should let this happen is beyond me. Can we tell who doesn't belong? Any physical difference we should pretend to not notice?
> 
> Look at those photos. You want your kid playing against them? Is that fair? You want your daughter in college playing against them? Fair?
> 
> You want to ruin women's sports?
> 
> 
> View attachment 9987
> 
> View attachment 9988
> 
> View attachment 9989


One person won a division 2 race after years of hormone suppression and it means the end of women’s sports, all retroactively caused by Joe Biden years later?  The hysteria is off the charts. 

But all of this ignores the bigots claiming that Biden’s executive order requires that schools let dudes dress up as women and play women’s sports when it does no such thing. It doesn’t say a word about it, and it only supports existing law as interpreted by the US Supreme Court. If you have a problem, talk to the NCAA. Or the Supreme Court. Again.

If you’re worried about a dude ruining your daughter’s youth club experience on “her team” a couple points. First, you might want to consider that the team is not “hers”, its everyone’s who the governing body says gets to play on it. Second, I don’t even know why we’re having this hypothetical conversation because it hasn’t happened, and it won’t for about a million different reasons. Regardless, the NCAA, the pro cycling federation, and the weightlifting federation set the rules for participation and if you don’t like it, you can take your ball, your bike, or your dumbbell self somewhere else.

It is pretty crazy that you’re freaking out about someone taking hormone suppression unfairly competing in biking, track and weightlifting against others who are pretty much freebasing testosterone and masking agents.


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## MacDre

I hate to over generalize but I think there are lots of female athletes that are “fag hags” so, I don’t think the ladies are gonna object.  In fact, I think the ladies will embrace it.


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## happy9

EOTL said:


> One person won a division 2 race after years of hormone suppression and it means the end of women’s sports, all retroactively caused by Joe Biden years later?  The hysteria is off the charts.
> 
> But all of this ignores the bigots claiming that Biden’s executive order requires that schools let dudes dress up as women and play women’s sports when it does no such thing. It doesn’t say a word about it, and it only supports existing law as interpreted by the US Supreme Court. If you have a problem, talk to the NCAA. Or the Supreme Court. Again.
> 
> If you’re worried about a dude ruining your daughter’s youth club experience on “her team” a couple points. First, you might want to consider that the team is not “hers”, its everyone’s who the governing body says gets to play on it. Second, I don’t even know why we’re having this hypothetical conversation because it hasn’t happened, and it won’t for about a million different reasons. Regardless, the NCAA, the pro cycling federation, and the weightlifting federation set the rules for participation and if you don’t like it, you can take your ball, your bike, or your dumbbell self somewhere else.
> 
> It is pretty crazy that you’re freaking out about someone taking hormone suppression unfairly competing in biking, track and weightlifting against others who are pretty much freebasing testosterone and masking agents.


I think the OP asked a rather sincere question that didn't require indoctrinated speak.  He was asking for an opinion, not a judgement.

A simple answer would have sufficed.  Maybe like - I agree with the EO and I don't think it's a threat to women's sport.  Here are the reasons why.

But, you go all magat and stuff and then this happens.  Kinda like Brittany Spears.  She may be your spirit animal.


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## happy9

MacDre said:


> I hate to over generalize but I think there are lots of female athletes that are “fag hags” so, I don’t think the ladies are gonna object.  In fact, I think the ladies will embrace it.


What's a "fag hag"?  Country folk like me aren't up to date with this urban speak.


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## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Yikes, you are specially frothy today.   So, to be clear, it's ok by you to have someone that identifies as a woman, but is really a man, compete against women, in high level athletics?  In the case you cited above, those two transgender girls won 15 state titles while undergoing hormone therapy.  The hormone therapy was supposed to level the playing field - obviously didn't.
> 
> A few years ago, my daughter was routinely beating up on boys in her age group on the pitch.  It's not even close now.  Do you even futbol bruh?
> 
> I know you are a social justice warrior and I expect to hear you call me all kinds of names - bigot, homophobe, etc... According to your own doctrine, Impossible for me to be the first (don't have enough white in me to be a bigot I guess), the second - phhfft, be gay, I don't care.


I know you magats have a hard time reading and comprehending, so let me use smaller words. I do not have a problem with the NCAA deciding, as it has, that someone who goes through at least a year of testosterone suppression therapy can play. But what the NCAA decided has nothing to do with the Biden executive order. To the extent your Q handler has gotten your frothy (I like your word) mcfrumpy magat ass upset about it, she is lying and you are a weak-minded fool for lapping it up. But magat and weak-minded fool are redundant, so I apologize for the unnecessary wordiness.

And yes, it seems very much from your hysteria over a fake problem that you are a homophobe.  Oh, and since when is D2 “high level athletics”? Since when is being a token athlete on the worst track team in the mighty CAA conference “high level athletics”? It is so sad that little Ms. Soule fell just short of coming in last place at the epic Connecticut HS track meet because a trans runner took her spot. The horror of not getting to come in last or even getting scouted by college coaches coming in last in the finals of a small state must have been so disappointing. If only college scouts could have been able to find her times in prior races, like maybe the one before in which she proved she wasn’t very fast, or any of the other races she had ever raced slowly in.  The world is going to end because Ms. Soule didn’t get her 8th place medal. They do give out medals for last place in this era of Soule-ian snowflakes right?


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## MacDre

happy9 said:


> What's a "fag hag"?  Country folk like me aren't up to date with this urban speak.











						Fag hag - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## EOTL

dk_b said:


> When I saw your post - before reading the discussion - I was going to answer with sincerity of what I thought and, because I've had this discussion with my daughters (though not today), what they thought.  But it's clear that it's going to turn into a political back and forth and not really about soccer. That's OK but @Dominic should be aware that the more threads like this, the more the entire board is going to be dominated by these discussions and the more you will lose people who are just tired of them (which may be no big deal).  I get it that people are frustrated and anxious w/o youth or college soccer (no discussions about how my kid's team is the only one that plays possession and the others just play kickball) but it seems that every soccer thread goes off the rails.  This one is obviously loaded with a lot of emotion but it could be a really good topic w/o spinning out of control.
> 
> So, @Lavey29, if you really wanted answers to your question and a reasonable discussion of the issues, I'm sorry you didn't get that.  On the other hand, if you were looking to throw something provocative out there so that it could get heated with predictable commenters on predictable sides, I guess you did get that.


He had no desire for a thoughtful discussion.  If he had, he would have asked a real question instead of  posting a link to Q(ueen) homophobe’s hysterical and false accusation about an executive order. And don’t forget his recent hysteria about women’s restrooms and also throwing out a highly offensive comment about the appearance of a trans government official. 

If he hadn’t started with a discussion dripping with hate and misrepresentations from the inception, this wouldn’t be happening.


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## happy9

EOTL said:


> I know you magats have a hard time reading and comprehending, so let me use smaller words. I do not have a problem with the NCAA deciding, as it has, that someone who goes through at least a year of testosterone suppression therapy can play. But what the NCAA decided has nothing to do with the Biden executive order. To the extent your Q handler has gotten your frothy (I like your word) mcfrumpy magat ass upset about it, she is lying and you are a weak-minded fool for lapping it up. But magat and weak-minded fool are redundant, so I apologize for the unnecessary wordiness.
> 
> And yes, it seems very much from your hysteria over a fake problem that you are a homophobe.  Oh, and since when is D2 “high level athletics”? Since when is being a token athlete on the worst track team in the mighty CAA conference “high level athletics”? It is so sad that little Ms. Soule fell just short of coming in last place at the epic Connecticut HS track meet because a trans runner took her spot. The horror of not getting to come in last or even getting scouted by college coaches coming in last in the finals of a small state must have been so disappointing. If only college scouts could have been able to find her times in prior races, like maybe the one before in which she proved she wasn’t very fast, or any of the other races she had ever raced slowly in.  The world is going to end because Ms. Soule didn’t get her 8th place medal. They do give out medals for last place in this era of Soule-ian snowflakes right?


 - we have a gay student athlete in the family so being a homophobe is the least of my issues. The rest of your response is your typical magat response. Wipe your chin.

You still haven provided one cent of value to any discussion other than nonsense.  Who mentioned anything about D2?  seeing things now?


----------



## dad4

happy9 said:


> What's a "fag hag"?  Country folk like me aren't up to date with this urban speak.


Insulting term for a woman with a lot of gay male friends.  Usually implies that she is so ugly that straight men won't be near her.

I am not a fan of the term.


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> Fag hag - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org


There ya go, learn something new every day.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Insulting term for a woman with a lot of gay male friends.  Usually implies that she is so ugly that straight men won't be near her.
> 
> I am not a fan of the term.


I got the word from the queer community.  And, I know several homophobes that hang out with queer dudes just because they always know the cute chicks.  I have never heard of queer dudes and ugly chicks.


----------



## dk_b

EOTL said:


> He had no desire for a thoughtful discussion.  If he had, he would have asked a real question instead of  posting a link to Q(ueen) homophobe’s hysterical and false accusation about an executive order. And don’t forget his recent hysteria about women’s restrooms and also throwing out a highly offensive comment about the appearance of a trans government official.
> 
> If he hadn’t started with a discussion dripping with hate and misrepresentations from the inception, this wouldn’t be happening.


I was looking at the text and not the source and I would have responded sincerely but for the tenor. I'm not here to squelch that discussion - it's not my place.

And, for the record, the EO does not bother me and, based on prior discussions, I don't expect it would bother my kids.  Why?  Because they understand what it means to be transgender and have transgender classmates (boys and girls). They have changed out in the locker room and have used the bathroom with transgender people (and the strong likelihood is that we all have). And I believe that they'd say that no teenager is going to front like he's a transgender girl just so he can succeed in sports - being transgender is not just cross dressing to "pass".


----------



## Lavey29

dk_b said:


> When I saw your post - before reading the discussion - I was going to answer with sincerity of what I thought and, because I've had this discussion with my daughters (though not today), what they thought.  But it's clear that it's going to turn into a political back and forth and not really about soccer. That's OK but @Dominic should be aware that the more threads like this, the more the entire board is going to be dominated by these discussions and the more you will lose people who are just tired of them (which may be no big deal).  I get it that people are frustrated and anxious w/o youth or college soccer (no discussions about how my kid's team is the only one that plays possession and the others just play kickball) but it seems that every soccer thread goes off the rails.  This one is obviously loaded with a lot of emotion but it could be a really good topic w/o spinning out of control.
> 
> So, @Lavey29, if you really wanted answers to your question and a reasonable discussion of the issues, I'm sorry you didn't get that.  On the other hand, if you were looking to throw something provocative out there so that it could get heated with predictable commenters on predictable sides, I guess you did get that.


I think its applicable to all women's sports but since the article mentions college admissions I thought this would be appropriate.  I would be curious to see the responses from top college athletes trying to make pro teams or compete in the Olympics only to lose out to a male with a wig and lipstick.  We aren't there yet but some high level international sports events have already experienced this as evidenced by the pictures posted in the thread.


----------



## Lavey29

happy9 said:


> I think the OP asked a rather sincere question that didn't require indoctrinated speak.  He was asking for an opinion, not a judgement.
> 
> A simple answer would have sufficed.  Maybe like - I agree with the EO and I don't think it's a threat to women's sport.  Here are the reasons why.
> 
> But, you go all magat and stuff and then this happens.  Kinda like Brittany Spears.  She may be your spirit animal.



Yes, it would be nice to hear some honest opinions here but I'd really like to find articles about top female athletes and how they feel about the new trend of the day. I suspect they would have no issues with it until of course it affects them directly such as they miss out on opportunities for high level Olympic type competition or scholarships to college.


----------



## Lavey29

Trans Athletes Are Posting Victories and Shaking Up Sports
					

Transgender athletes at all levels of sport are winning medals, spurring a contentious debate over the future of gendered competition.




					www.google.com


----------



## Lavey29

So not only will you need a high GPA and an inside track to the coach but now you have to compete against Messina for that roster spot.....wonderful.


----------



## dad4

I don't think you will see honest opinions from top athletes.  

If they said anything negative, they would immediately be branded as a bigot, lose their sponsorships, and maybe lose their national team spot.

Once you open up cancel culture on this, and we have, you lose the ability to listen to honest opinions.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> I don't think you will see honest opinions from top athletes.
> 
> If they said anything negative, they would immediately be branded as a bigot, lose their sponsorships, and maybe lose their national team spot.
> 
> Once you open up cancel culture on this, and we have, you lose the ability to listen to honest opinions.


Go look up Martina Navratilova's stance. Yes she is long retired, but an ambassador to the sport of tennis.

She sees the obvious issue of letting men play men's sports. Needless to say she in not homophobic.

So she is outspoken. However as you pointed out regarding sponsorships...she won't lose any since she is done and can now freely speak her mind.


----------



## Lavey29

dad4 said:


> I don't think you will see honest opinions from top athletes.
> 
> If they said anything negative, they would immediately be branded as a bigot, lose their sponsorships, and maybe lose their national team spot.
> 
> Once you open up cancel culture on this, and we have, you lose the ability to listen to honest opinions.


I thought the same thing after I made the post.


----------



## Lavey29

It would be great if any higher level coaches on the site gave their perspective also especially if they ever coached at the college level.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> Go look up Martina Navratilova's stance. Yes she is long retired, but an ambassador to the sport of tennis.
> 
> She sees the obvious issue of letting men play men's sports. Needless to say she in not homophobic.
> 
> So she is outspoken. However as you pointed out regarding sponsorships...she won't lose any since she is done and can now freely speak her mind.


Interesting read.

Of course, once Martina spoke her mind, the LGBT community kicked her out of their sports advocacy group and created enough pressure to make her apologize.

Cancel culture at its best.  Next they'll be going after  Ellen.


----------



## happy9

dad4 said:


> I don't think you will see honest opinions from top athletes.
> 
> *If they said anything negative, they would immediately be branded as a bigot, lose their sponsorships, and maybe lose their national team spot.*
> 
> Once you open up cancel culture on this, and we have, you lose the ability to listen to honest opinions.


Yep, this is truth. Brand, sponsorship, all of this is on the line, especially for female athletes that don't make a ton of money.  It's hard for some to balance personal conviction VS money and fame - just look at bron bron


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Yep, this is truth. Brand, sponsorship, all of this is on the line, especially for female athletes that don't make a ton of money.  It's hard for some to balance personal conviction VS money and fame - just look at bron bron


Good. That’s what we do to white supremacists and  anti-semites already. Even the Charlottesville tiki torcher who worked at the hot dog stand got the heave ho.

Soule and y’all are whining about her losing the opportunity to come in last in a race in which even the trans runner was so slow that she would not have qualified in CA. Soule also runs so slow that there were 25 girls in CA who ran faster than that at the CIF championships, which means there are a boatload more than that in CA who could also run faster than her. Yet she filed a freakin’ lawsuit because she didn’t qualify for a race in which she would have come in last anyway.  Maybe the court will award her a participation ribbon in her lawsuit. Probably not, though, since the religious freak lawyers who represent her pissed off the judge with their offensive bullying commentary.  

Oh, and CT does not require testosterone suppression unlike the NCAA, which I’d say is kinda weird but whatever floats CT’s boat, since nobody cares who is the fastest of the slow people. But that also means the trans runner will be even slower if she tries to run in college. No one has anything to worry about except for one slow entitled Karen in CT who is missing out on her participation ribbon.

Pathetic.


----------



## Lavey29

Awesome,  more meaningless jibberish...


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Good. That’s what we do to white supremacists and  anti-semites already. Even the Charlottesville tiki torcher who worked at the hot dog stand got the heave ho.
> 
> Soule and y’all are whining about her losing the opportunity to come in last in a race in which even the trans runner was so slow that she would not have qualified in CA. Soule also runs so slow that there were 25 girls in CA who ran faster than that at the CIF championships, which means there are a boatload more than that in CA who could also run faster than her. Yet she filed a freakin’ lawsuit because she didn’t qualify for a race in which she would have come in last anyway.  Maybe the court will award her a participation ribbon in her lawsuit. Probably not, though, since the religious freak lawyers who represent her pissed off the judge with their offensive bullying commentary.
> 
> Oh, and CT does not require testosterone suppression unlike the NCAA, which I’d say is kinda weird but whatever floats CT’s boat, since nobody cares who is the fastest of the slow people. But that also means the trans runner will be even slower if she tries to run in college. No one has anything to worry about except for one slow entitled Karen in CT who is missing out on her participation ribbon.
> 
> Pathetic.


who are you talking to? I have no idea what a CIF championship is.  Must be a California thing I guess.

You like to ride on both sides of the pony.  I thought you were a social justice warrior.  The CT peeps are likely of the same cloth as you, except they are trying to look out for their daughter (gasp).  Nice job on not invoking the name of your marmalade deity.  I suppose that's progress.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> who are you talking to? I have no idea what a CIF championship is.  Must be a California thing I guess.
> 
> You like to ride on both sides of the pony.  I thought you were a social justice warrior.  The CT peeps are likely of the same cloth as you, except they are trying to look out for their daughter (gasp).  Nice job on not invoking the name of your marmalade deity.  I suppose that's progress.


Supporting a slow rich person Karening about not being able to come in last in a race is not exactly social justice. There are about 60,000 women playing college soccer, and one trans person in history has ever played soccer.  If you’re not better than at least one of those 60,000 players, it’s time to focus on other things.


----------



## Lavey29

I guess its important to remember that this will not just affect soccer but all women's sports eventually.  Not sure what the Olympics will do or how professional sports will deal with it either.


----------



## WestOfFive

EOTL said:


> The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.
> 
> The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.
> 
> Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.
> 
> There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.
> 
> I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.
> 
> You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


dumb


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> *Supporting a slow rich person Karening about not being able to come in last in a race is not exactly social justice.* There are about 60,000 women playing college soccer, and one trans person in history has ever played soccer.  If you’re not better than at least one of those 60,000 players, it’s time to focus on other things.


Wondering why you didn't throw in there slow, rich, WHITE person.  Sounds like you support a war on women/girls sports, especially if they are white girls just wanting to compete fairly - interesting take from you, surprised. This isn't  just about soccer, it's about all girls sports.  And really, playing sports isn't about competing at the highest levels, it's about enabling our daughters to be better in life.  And you are OK with diminishing women's sport for the sake of political correctness. 

 And before you go all magat, I'm not transphobic, just like Martina Navratilova isn't transphobic.  Plenty of studies out there show that 2 years worth of gene therapy does nothing to level the playing field.


----------



## crush

happy9 said:


> Wondering why you didn't throw in there slow, rich, WHITE person.  Sounds like you support a war on women/girls sports, especially if they are white girls just wanting to compete fairly - interesting take from you, surprised. This isn't  just about soccer, it's about all girls sports.  And really, playing sports isn't about competing at the highest levels, it's about enabling our daughters to be better in life.  And you are OK with diminishing women's sport for the sake of political correctness.
> 
> And before you go all magat, I'm not transphobic, just like Martina Navratilova isn't transphobic.  Plenty of studies out there show that 2 years worth of gene therapy does nothing to level the playing field.


Thank you for sharing.  One of my old church friends had a daughter named Hannah.  However, Hannah felt strongly she was more male as she grew up and started puberty.  After much pain and zero support from their local church, they all together left traditional church and as a family, helped Hannah through this very difficult time.  I wont bore those with how chromosome work and how all the wars played a roll in all this deep stuff that is impossible to talk about at most churches.  Talk about scorn and judgement from so called bros.  I had another friend say his son confessed to his college campus minister that he was certain he was gay.  He also felt he wasnt sure and was seeking some advice from his bros in household.  Campus Minister dude told him he needs to leave the church asap and is not allowed to room with the other guys.  Just like that, your out for confessing deep thoughts and some confusion.  Anyway, when Hannah was 14, she became Steven.  What I like about this real story is how the family helped Steven through his choice.  Regarding sports, I wouldnt worry about a boy becoming a girl and playing against the other girls.  It's not that big of a deal.  Maybe have co-ed soccer games so all can play together.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Wondering why you didn't throw in there slow, rich, WHITE person.  Sounds like you support a war on women/girls sports, especially if they are white girls just wanting to compete fairly - interesting take from you, surprised. This isn't  just about soccer, it's about all girls sports.  And really, playing sports isn't about competing at the highest levels, it's about enabling our daughters to be better in life.  And you are OK with diminishing women's sport for the sake of political correctness.
> 
> And before you go all magat, I'm not transphobic, just like Martina Navratilova isn't transphobic.  Plenty of studies out there show that 2 years worth of gene therapy does nothing to level the playing field.


A war on sports, sure. There has been on transgender college soccer player ever. I can’t wait for the flood of dudes who will go through testosterone suppression so they can play college women’s sports because Biden signed an executive order that says nothing about that. It’s going to be just like when the NCAA first implemented its transgender rules.

One trans woman ever has played college soccer ever at school that is terrible at soccer.  Claiming the end of women’s sports is coming is pathetic. Your daughter will be a better person you put thoughtful consideration into the issue instead of lying about what an executive order says and also lying that it will lead to the end of women’s sports.


----------



## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> I guess its important to remember that this will not just affect soccer but all women's sports eventually.  Not sure what the Olympics will do or how professional sports will deal with it either.View attachment 9992


So passive aggressive, but that’s magats for you.  If you want to know that the impact will be on the Olympics or any professional sport, read their f**king rules idiot. The Olympics especially has very specific rules. But you don’t care about how the Olympics is handling it because it would take even a trumpanzee like you two seconds to figure it out and you  obviously have no interest in that.  Rather, you just want to scare people over a fake issue because you hate LGBTQ people.

So pathetic that you’re terrified of people wearing dresses and lipstick.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> A war on sports, sure. There has been on transgender college soccer player ever. I can’t wait for the flood of dudes who will go through testosterone suppression so they can play college women’s sports because Biden signed an executive order that says nothing about that. It’s going to be just like when the NCAA first implemented its transgender rules.
> 
> One trans woman ever has played college soccer ever at school that is terrible at soccer.  Claiming the end of women’s sports is coming is pathetic. Your daughter will be a better person you put thoughtful consideration into the issue instead of lying about what an executive order says and also lying that it will lead to the end of women’s sports.


Thanks for the parenting tip - you seem like a legit source.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> Of course, once Martina spoke her mind, the LGBT community kicked her out of their sports advocacy group and created enough pressure to make her apologize.
> 
> Cancel culture at its best.  Next they'll be going after  Ellen.


So ridiculous. Claiming that someone bowed to pressure instead of changing her position after educating herself more is offensive. 

Of course you need to dismiss any support for  trans athletes as being the result of pressure, because that’s the only way to rationalize your bigotry and complete lack of empathy or understanding. The rich privileged karen in CT is no more important than a trans person. If she doesn’t like the rules, she can do what she is demanding the trans runner do, namely go do something else.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Thanks for the parenting tip - you seem like a legit source.


Enjoy being on the losing (and wrong) side. Again.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Enjoy being on the losing (and wrong) side. Again.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> The gays are coming!  The gays are coming!  Panic! You’re such a joke.
> 
> The executive order directs federal agencies to follow existing law as previously interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. Wow, how controversial.  It says nothing about biological males playing women’s sports. Rather, existing guidelines require a substantial amount of hormone therapy, treatment and time to play a women’s sport. Like two people ever have done this, but I’m sure now that there’s an executive order that says nothing about sports, dudes will now be flocking to doctors everywhere so they can go through hormone therapy in order to maybe play women’s college sports two years later. You bigots have been freaking out that this meant the end of women’s sports for years but, guess what, they’re still there and stronger than ever.
> 
> Regardless, if you want to go to a school that chooses to forgo federal aid and drop women’s programs because it hates gay people, well too bad so sad. That’s the choice you make to be a bigot. You don’t get to sell cakes. You don’t get to discriminate in employment or housing. You don’t get to keep trans people out of the bathroom. And you don’t get to play college soccer at a bigoty school that can’t make up the difference parting bigots from their money through the collection plate at church.
> 
> There is no evisceration of women’s sports. That’s just hyperbole from the Q(ueen) Homophobe to scare you weak-minded magats into thinking that gay people are coming for your children. In reality, the order helps women’s sports because, go figure, a lot of women are gay and it does a tremendous disservice to them when bigots like you have treated them like s**t their entire lives and claimed something is wrong with them. Now colleges can’t unless they want to pay for it themselves.
> 
> I really can’t wait until your child comes out, or can’t play D1 because she just isn’t good enough to get recruited over gay women who are finally being treated with dignity and respect from all but a handful of pathetic s**tbag nobodies who don’t matter.  But even if the order did allow trans biological males to play women’s sports without having to go through a massive amount of hormone therapy (which it does not), thereby opening the floodgates to trans athletes, wtf makes you think your kid is any more deserving of a spot on a college soccer team? Bigotry. That’s why.
> 
> You trumpanzees are such simpletons. You read a tweet that reinforces your homophobia and just assume it’s true and the sky is falling without even bothering to look at what the order even says, and without any idea what you’re talking about.


You really do need to get a life.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Wahhhh!!!!!!
> 
> Live you life as you like, but if someone has complied with the rules set out by the NCAA, they should be competing as allowable under those rules. If your kid isn’t good enough to take a roster sport from the exactly one trans athlete in history who has ever competed in college women’s soccer, your kid really sucks at soccer.  As it really, really sucks.
> 
> You should bring your complaint to the NCAA, because the executive order that you and your bigoty friends are freaking out about doesn’t say anything about trans athletes competing in women’s sports. I know you want to get a head start on hating Biden, but the least you could do is freak out about things he actually does.


No, you want the rules changed to comply with your life.  You’re wrong on this.


----------



## dad4

If, as seems likely, the trans community succeeds in redefining gender, expect public interest in pro womens sports to fall.

For some sports, the highest levels will have a podium full of XY women sprinters and weight lifters who look like the East German team from 1976.  That is not going to drive viewership.  It will look like a rigged game, because that is what it will be.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> No, you want the rules changed to comply with your life.  You’re wrong on this.


Nope. The rules are already in place and have been for years.  You’re the one who wants the rules changed. If you want slow Karens to get eighth place instead of ninth in CT, you’re the one who needs to change them.  

Whiny loser.  Lost the presidential election. Lost Congress.  Lost the gubernatorial election. Lost your attempts to keep trans women out of the bathroom. And now slow Karens can’t even win eighth place in a HS race. So much losing.


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> I was looking at the text and not the source and I would have responded sincerely but for the tenor. I'm not here to squelch that discussion - it's not my place.
> 
> And, for the record, the EO does not bother me and, based on prior discussions, I don't expect it would bother my kids.  Why?  Because they understand what it means to be transgender and have transgender classmates (boys and girls). They have changed out in the locker room and have used the bathroom with transgender people (and the strong likelihood is that we all have). And I believe that they'd say that no teenager is going to front like he's a transgender girl just so he can succeed in sports - being transgender is not just cross dressing to "pass".


I couldn't care less what restroom transgenders use and I fully support equal rights for LGBTQ.  However, allowing biological males to compete in women's sports is actually giving an advantage to these transgender athletes.  There is only so much hormones can do to change the biological strengths of a male.  In the case of the Connecticut male to female track athletes those individuals were on the boys team one year and the girls the next.  Sorry, but that doesn't pass the reasonableness test for me.  Martina makes a very good case for female to male transgenders not competing in women's sports.  I don't see it having much to any impact on women's soccer (or any team sports), but I do have some concern for individual sports that involve strength and speed.

If you get a chance, watch the ESPN documentary on Dr. Renee Richards, it is fascinating and and dispels some stereotypes that some people may have on transgender individuals.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> If, as seems likely, the trans community succeeds in redefining gender, expect public interest in pro womens sports to fall.
> 
> For some sports, the highest levels will have a podium full of XY women sprinters and weight lifters who look like the East German team from 1976.  That is not going to drive viewership.  It will look like a rigged game, because that is what it will be.


Gosh, if they let people wear jet packs on their backs, it’s really going to ruin sport.

You’re making up fake hypotheticals. The “trans community” is not trying to ruin women’s sports. No one in it is demanding that they be allowed to just throw on a wig and compete against women.  No one is claiming that reasonable standards shouldn’t be put into place. Y’all are just making s**t up. There is no plot to take over women’s sports and it will never happen. You’re just being hysterical


----------



## EOTL

watfly said:


> I couldn't care less what restroom transgenders use and I fully support equal rights for LGBTQ.  However, allowing biological males to compete in women's sports is actually giving an advantage to these transgender athletes.  There is only so much hormones can do to change the biological strengths of a male.  In the case of the Connecticut male to female track athletes those individuals were on the boys team one year and the girls the next.  Sorry, but that doesn't pass the reasonableness test for me.  Martina makes a very good case for female to male transgenders not competing in women's sports.  I don't see it having much to any impact on women's soccer (or any team sports), but I do have some concern for individual sports that involve strength and speed.
> 
> If you get a chance, watch the ESPN documentary on Dr. Renee Richards, it is fascinating and and dispels some stereotypes that some people may have on transgender individuals.


Thank you for saying something that isn’t full of bigoted hysterical crap, unlike the s**t for brains trumpanzees here.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> Gosh, if they let people wear jet packs on their backs, it’s really going to ruin sport.
> 
> You’re making up fake hypotheticals. The “trans community” is not trying to ruin women’s sports. No one in it is demanding that they be allowed to just throw on a wig and compete against women.  No one is claiming that reasonable standards shouldn’t be put into place. Y’all are just making s**t up. There is no plot to take over women’s sports and it will never happen. You’re just being hysterical


How DARE you use the word "hysterical"!!!!!

Sexist pig.  Save that kind of misogynist language for your magat loving QAnon buddies on Parler.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> How DARE you use the word "hysterical"!!!!!
> 
> Sexist pig.  Save that kind of misogynist language for your magat loving QAnon buddies on Parler.


Nice try. The only misogyny going on here is you connecting the word hysterical to women. I know you moss Parler. All you trumpanzees have been lost at sea without it.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> Nice try. The only misogyny going on here is you connecting the word hysterical to women. I know you moss Parler. All you trumpanzees have been lost at sea without it.


Bigot.
Racist.
Sexist.
Homophobe.
Magat.

You might want to look up the etymology of hysteria, by the way.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Nope. The rules are already in place and have been for years.  You’re the one who wants the rules changed. If you want slow Karens to get eighth place instead of ninth in CT, you’re the one who needs to change them.
> 
> Whiny loser.  Lost the presidential election. Lost Congress.  Lost the gubernatorial election. Lost your attempts to keep trans women out of the bathroom. And now slow Karens can’t even win eighth place in a HS race. So much losing.


LMAO!  I’m not a republican, you fool.

Men have zero business competing in women’s sports.  Period.  You can think you’re female, you can dress like a female and you can want to be a female.  You will FOREVER be genetically male and a pathetic piece of shit crying about wanting to compete against females.  “Trans” isn’t female and never will be.  If you can’t compete against your genetic peers, find a hobby.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> LMAO!  I’m not a republican, you fool.
> 
> Men have zero business competing in women’s sports.  Period.  You can think you’re female, you can dress like a female and you can want to be a female.  You will FOREVER be genetically male and a pathetic piece of shit crying about wanting to compete against females.  “Trans” isn’t female and never will be.  If you can’t compete against your genetic peers, find a hobby.


Tell it to the judge, like the slow whiny Karen of CT did. 

If you can’t compete under the rules set forth by the sport’s governing body, find a hobby.


----------



## full90

Amount of bio men becoming a woman to dominate in sports: zero.

amount of trans teens in America: less than .05 percent.

amount of trans teens in America going from bio male to female and also being good enough at a sport to dominate: even less that that.

is this really a pragmatic thing to worry about? And the EO doesn’t even single this issue out. It was spun by right wing fear mongerers as meaning this.

I don’t think bio boys should compete as females without really stringent guidelines. Lets spend our energy talking about those guidelines rather than arguing about an EO that didn’t even happen.


----------



## Desert Hound

full90 said:


> I don’t think bio boys should compete as females without really stringent guidelines.


The only guideline you need is to say boys/men can't play on girls/women's teams. Pretty simple.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

full90 said:


> Amount of bio men becoming a woman to dominate in sports: zero.
> 
> amount of trans teens in America: less than .05 percent.
> 
> amount of trans teens in America going from bio male to female and also being good enough at a sport to dominate: even less that that.
> 
> is this really a pragmatic thing to worry about? And the EO doesn’t even single this issue out. It was spun by right wing fear mongerers as meaning this.
> 
> I don’t think bio boys should compete as females without really stringent guidelines. Lets spend our energy talking about those guidelines rather than arguing about an EO that didn’t even happen.


We don’t know why they do it.  Someone here, probably Outlaw or Sheriff Joe, pointed out that Bruce Jenner was a straight man, who became a woman to date another man that became a woman.  Let’s not pretend that’s normal, sane or “zero” as a motivating factor.  Nobody has any idea how you become that unstable.


----------



## happy9

full90 said:


> Amount of bio men becoming a woman to dominate in sports: zero.
> 
> amount of trans teens in America: less than .05 percent.
> 
> amount of trans teens in America going from bio male to female and also being good enough at a sport to dominate: even less that that.
> 
> is this really a pragmatic thing to worry about? And the EO doesn’t even single this issue out. It was spun by right wing fear mongerers as meaning this.
> 
> I don’t think bio boys should compete as females without really stringent guidelines. Lets spend our energy talking about those guidelines rather than arguing about an EO that didn’t even happen.


Both sides are being pre-emptive.  The EO basically opens up the possibility of people challenging state and federal laws in court, allowing transgender women competing on women's teams.  One side doesn't ever want that to happen, the other side does.  The emotional response is usually seen from parents of younger athletes - middle school, high school, etc...

Policy is clearly laid out for higher level compeition (NCAA, IOC, etc).  The runway is much longer for these athletes - 4 years to identify as a female and monitoring testosterone levels for at least 12 months or so prior to a competition.  I figure the testosterone thing follows roughly WADA guildelines for any banned substance.

I could care less what happens at the NCAA, Olympic, or pro sports level - have at it.  They have common sense rules in place to level the playing field. I think there is room for concern at the middle and high school level.  And yes, I know statistics show that it doesn't happen often.  I've seen enough boys/girls scrimmages to know that once boys turn 14, height, weight, and speed matters. I've seen enough injuries at these types of scrimmages.


----------



## Lavey29

Women's groups sure hate the idea and think it's an important issue apparently.


----------



## Lavey29

I will just leave this for Ewok


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Both sides are being pre-emptive.  The EO basically opens up the possibility of people challenging state and federal laws in court, allowing transgender women competing on women's teams.  One side doesn't ever want that to happen, the other side does.  The emotional response is usually seen from parents of younger athletes - middle school, high school, etc...
> 
> Policy is clearly laid out for higher level compeition (NCAA, IOC, etc).  The runway is much longer for these athletes - 4 years to identify as a female and monitoring testosterone levels for at least 12 months or so prior to a competition.  I figure the testosterone thing follows roughly WADA guildelines for any banned substance.
> 
> I could care less what happens at the NCAA, Olympic, or pro sports level - have at it.  They have common sense rules in place to level the playing field. I think there is room for concern at the middle and high school level.  And yes, I know statistics show that it doesn't happen often.  I've seen enough boys/girls scrimmages to know that once boys turn 14, height, weight, and speed matters. I've seen enough injuries at these types of scrimmages.


Those track, biking and weightlifting injuries are brutal. So much tripping by the transgender runners, which is hard to do from the front.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Those track, biking and weightlifting injuries are brutal. So much tripping by the transgender runners, which is hard to do from the front.


So what you are saying is biological boys are faster than biological girls?  Just wondering where I mentioned track, biking and weightlifting?  It still applies for all 3 - boys are bigger, faster, stronger.. Maybe not in your case?  maybe you weren't bigger, faster, stronger than bio girls in middle and HS.  Nothing to be ashamed of....

Could care less what happens in college, olympics, pro level.


----------



## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> I will just leave this for Ewok


Welp, it sure looks like it’s over for the ladies if Fox Spews says so. Finished rubbing one out fixating on Kevin whatever the f**k his name is’ letter?

So much losing. At the ballot box and on the track.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> So what you are saying is biological boys are faster than biological girls?  Just wondering where I mentioned track, biking and weightlifting?  It still applies for all 3 - boys are bigger, faster, stronger.. Maybe not in your case?  maybe you weren't bigger, faster, stronger than bio girls in middle and HS.  Nothing to be ashamed of....
> 
> Could care less what happens in college, olympics, pro level.


Yeah, and nobody cares about your fake hypothetical about something that hasn’t and never will happen to your kid. How many hours have you spent trying to find a youth trans soccer player to trash?


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Yeah, and nobody cares about your fake hypothetical about something that hasn’t and never will happen to your kid. How many hours have you spent trying to find a youth trans soccer player to trash?


 - you are so boring and predictable.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> Welp, it sure looks like it’s over for the ladies if Fox Spews says so. Finished rubbing one out fixating on Kevin whatever the f**k his name is’ letter?
> 
> So much losing. At the ballot box and on the track.


Ballot box?  My guy won at the ballot box.  I voted for Biden.  

But he is wrong on this.  If he had left girls sports out of it, he would have been right.

I hope he corrects it.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Yeah, and nobody cares about your fake hypothetical about something that hasn’t and never will happen to your kid. How many hours have you spent trying to find a youth trans soccer player to trash?


 - boring and predictable. Who's trash talking anyone? Don't be mad that I don't agree with your opinion - be happy.


----------



## happy9

dad4 said:


> Ballot box?  My guy won at the ballot box.  I voted for Biden.
> 
> But he is wrong on this.  If he had left girls sports out of it, he would have been right.
> 
> I hope he corrects it.


He won't - part of the blood debt owed to factions within his party.  He's a politician to the nth degree (all of them are).  You'll have to wait until the next president, or maybe the next one.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> Ballot box?  My guy won at the ballot box.  I voted for Biden.
> 
> But he is wrong on this.  If he had left girls sports out of it, he would have been right.
> 
> I hope he corrects it.


Read the EO. It says nothing about about transgender athletes in sports. Literally nothing. Your trumpanzee friends have brainwashed you. Or did you expect an EO that literally said “Equality for LGBTQ, but I to make it very clear that doesn’t mean trans athletes should ever he allowed to compete in women’s sports regardless of how the specific governing body decides what is best for them.  In fact, I am going to ban transgender athletes from competing in women’s sports under any circumstances.”

How on earth could the federal government even tell a private youth organization that they can’t let transgender athletes play, like most unhappy9 is worried about? All of this is a fake issue and just more lying about what the EO says.


----------



## dad4

happy9 said:


> He won't - part of the blood debt owed to factions within his party.  He's a politician to the nth degree (all of them are).  You'll have to wait until the next president, or maybe the next one.


It depends on how many places see the girls state finals dominated by boys.  

It will be a big issue in track.  If you are a sprinter, you get a huge bonus for being male.  The men's sprint records are almost 10% faster than the women's.  

That's a 1 second boost just for being a dude.  There is no way a girl can compete with that.  You will see trans athletes take the state title in any state which has a fast trans athlete.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> Read the EO. It says nothing about about transgender athletes in sports. Literally nothing. Your trumpanzee friends have brainwashed you. Or did you expect an EO that literally said “Equality for LGBTQ, but I to make it very clear that doesn’t mean trans athletes should ever he allowed to compete in women’s sports regardless of how the specific governing body decides what is best for them.  In fact, I am going to ban transgender athletes from competing in women’s sports under any circumstances.”
> 
> How on earth could the federal government even tell a private youth organization that they can’t let transgender athletes play, like most unhappy9 is worried about? All of this is a fake issue and just more lying about what the EO says.


If he clarifies it so that all trans athletes are guaranteed equal access to sports on the boys side, it won't be an issue.

I have coached a boys team with a player who was AFAB.  (Assigned female at birth.)   It was fine.

It is only the other direction which gets unfair.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> It depends on how many places see the girls state finals dominated by boys.
> 
> It will be a big issue in track.  If you are a sprinter, you get a huge bonus for being male.  The men's sprint records are almost 10% faster than the women's.
> 
> That's a 1 second boost just for being a dude.  There is no way a girl can compete with that.  You will see trans athletes take the state title in any state which has a fast trans athlete.


Honestly, I wish this would happen just to see y’all freak out.


----------



## full90

dad4 said:


> Ballot box?  My guy won at the ballot box.  I voted for Biden.
> 
> But he is wrong on this.  If he had left girls sports out of it, he would have been right.
> 
> I hope he corrects it.


It NEVER brings up girls sports. This whole thing is a hypothetical. Read the order. Not the chicken little analysis of it but the order. It never touches on this.
I don’t think bio boys should be able to compete with bio girls. At all. But this does not worry me at all.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> If he clarifies it so that all trans athletes are guaranteed equal access to sports on the boys side, it won't be an issue.
> 
> I have coached a boys team with a player who was AFAB.  (Assigned female at birth.)   It was fine.
> 
> It is only the other direction which gets unfair.


And on neither side did the President of the United States say that anyone must allow a transgender athlete play. It’s all made up nonsense.


----------



## EOTL

full90 said:


> It NEVER brings up girls sports. This whole thing is a hypothetical. Read the order. Not the chicken little analysis of it but the order. It never touches on this.
> I don’t think bio boys should be able to compete with bio girls. At all. But this does not worry me at all.


Look, everyone, another person who can actually read!


----------



## dad4

full90 said:


> It NEVER brings up girls sports. This whole thing is a hypothetical. Read the order. Not the chicken little analysis of it but the order. It never touches on this.
> I don’t think bio boys should be able to compete with bio girls. At all. But this does not worry me at all.


The order does bring up sports.  It is in the same sentence where it mentions bathrooms.

The argument over bathrooms is about which bathroom a transgender student can use.  Can a bio boy use the girls bathroom?

Similarly, the sports argument is about which sports competition a transgender student can enter.  Can a bio boy compete in the girls competition?

This absolutely affects girls sports, by exactly the same logic that it affects girls bathrooms. 

Reading it the other way would be ridiculous.  Trans students already have access to toilets.  You only need the EO if you care about which bathrooms (or which sports teams) are permitted.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Honestly, I wish this would happen just to see y’all freak out.


Can we just create a tranny division?  I’ll bring the popcorn and jockstraps.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> And on neither side did the President of the United States say that anyone must allow a transgender athlete play. It’s all made up nonsense.


Then why does the EO mention sports at all?

If he is trying to make sure trans students are allowed to try out for the boys teams, there is nothing to argue.  Just let AMAB student athletes compete in a girls uniform against boy athletes.  Almost everyone in the country is fine with that.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

happy9 said:


> - boring and predictable.


^This


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> Then why does the EO mention sports at all?
> 
> If he is trying to make sure trans students are allowed to try out for the boys teams, there is nothing to argue.  Just let AMAB student athletes compete in a girls uniform against boy athletes.  Almost everyone in the country is fine with that.


Oh lord. Equal opportunity does not mean put on a dress and lipstick so you can play girls sports. So many “ifs”. If he is trying to let people put jet packs on for track meets...If he is trying to make sure trans people expand on the tremendous advantages they already have in life...If he is trying to ruin the self-esteem of straight kids because, as a democrat cannibal, they taste better....OK Q. 

Just let the governing body that implements reasonable requirements that they find appropriate decide who gets to play, rather than chicken little god people who think their mediocre athlete child won’t get kiddie ribbons anymore after trans athletes take over the world.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Can we just create a tranny division?  I’ll bring the popcorn and jockstraps.


This is exactly why states like CT allow trans athletes to participate without any limits. It’s because: (1) magats treat transgender girs especially like such s**t and make life so hard for them that it is unfair to not allow them to participate safely in sport otherwise; (2) imposing proof of substantial medical procedures and testosterone suppression imposes on their privacy and, although that is outweighed by the importance of sports integrity at truly competitive levels like college, pro, and Olympic levels, who gives a shit for kiddie sports, expecially if all it does is piss off privileged trumpanzees who don’t understand what hardship in life really is; (3) youth sports just isn’t important compared to the systemic abuse, harassment and discrimination to which disciples of the Velveeta Voldemort subject transgender girls. So much fun seeing these magat failures in life failing even more die to their middling athletic ability.

If y’all weren’t such hysterical losers and a**holes, you wouldn’t have this problem. It wouldn’t be so important to let transgender girls compete in girls sports of people like you didn’t mistreat them and engage in such reprehensible treatment at every turn, including outside sports. So ha ha, I hope trans athletes absolutely ruin your child’s youth experience just like Soule. Meaning I hope they ruin her own sports experience because your daughyer is the s**ty athlete she is and so whiny that she must blame her middling athletic ability on trans athletes. Shoot, you’re already blaming your kid’s failing athletic career on trans athletes despite never once competing against one. So pathetic. But that’s what magats are.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> This is exactly why states like CT allow trans athletes to participate without any limits. It’s because: (1) magats treat transgender girs especially like such s**t and make life so hard for them that it is unfair to not allow them to participate safely in sport otherwise; (2) imposing proof of substantial medical procedures and testosterone suppression imposes on their privacy and, although that is outweighed by the importance of sports integrity at truly competitive levels like college, pro, and Olympic levels, who gives a shit for kiddie sports, expecially if all it does is piss off privileged trumpanzees who don’t understand what hardship in life really is; (3) youth sports just isn’t important compared to the systemic abuse, harassment and discrimination to which disciples of the Velveeta Voldemort subject transgender girls. So much fun seeing these magat failures in life failing even more die to their middling athletic ability.
> 
> If y’all weren’t such hysterical losers and a**holes, you wouldn’t have this problem. It wouldn’t be so important to let transgender girls compete in girls sports of people like you didn’t mistreat them and engage in such reprehensible treatment at every turn, including outside sports. So ha ha, I hope trans athletes absolutely ruin your child’s youth experience just like Soule. Meaning I hope they ruin her own sports experience because your daughyer is the s**ty athlete she is and so whiny that she must blame her middling athletic ability on trans athletes. Shoot, you’re already blaming your kid’s failing athletic career on trans athletes despite never once competing against one. So pathetic. But that’s what magats are.


In retrospect, you don’t have time for a hobby.  You don’t have time for kids in youth soccer, either.

Let’s do the tranny division thingy since they aren’t good enough to get a trophy with their own gender.  Let’s lower the bar like we’re doing with everyone else.  Nothing says “success” like a boy in lipstick crushing little girls at the finish line.

One question, though.  Will that be enough to make daddy love them?


----------



## dad4

Scott m Shurson said:


> In retrospect, you don’t have time for a hobby.  You don’t have time for kids in youth soccer, either.
> 
> Let’s do the tranny division thingy since they aren’t good enough to get a trophy with their own gender.  Let’s lower the bar like we’re doing with everyone else.  Nothing says “success” like a boy in lipstick crushing little girls at the finish line.
> 
> One question, though.  Will that be enough to make daddy love them?


No need to be rude about it.  EOTL may be an insensitive twit, but the athletes in question are just kids.

Kids who should compete against boys, but kids.

I wonder if EOTL wants to allow 12 year olds to play U10, so long as they self-identity as a 9 year old....


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> No need to be rude about it.  EOTL may be an insensitive twit, but the athletes in question are just kids.
> 
> Kids who should compete against boys, but kids.
> 
> I wonder if EOTL wants to allow 12 year olds to play U10, so long as they self-identity as a 9 year old....


Aw, more fake hypotheticals to support more hysteria over a fake problem.

I wonder if @dad4 wants to allow people to beat transgender youths to death?


----------



## EOTL

It’s been two days now, and people are saying that 10,000 dudes have already started their hormone suppression regimen so they can take over college women’s sports next year.  When they’re eligible, it’s over for the women. All the fear mongers with HS girls should just give it up now and find some other way to get into college.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> It’s been two days now, and people are saying that 10,000 dudes have already started their hormone suppression regimen so they can take over college women’s sports next year.  When they’re eligible, it’s over for the women. All the fear mongers with HS girls should just give it up now and find some other way to get into college.


More likely, 50 runners in 15 states are applying to run as girls.

Not a big issue, except it ruins the competitive landscape for girls in those events in those states.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> More likely, 50 runners in 15 states are applying to run as girls.
> 
> Not a big issue, except it ruins the competitive landscape for girls in those events in those states.


We are doomed from this fake hoard of transgender athletes in states that already allow them to participate. So scary. You should go pray for your god to fix this. I hear he always comes through.  Maybe he’ll change his mind again and tell you it’s ok to go back to throwing rocks at them.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Read the EO. It says nothing about about transgender athletes in sports. Literally nothing. Your trumpanzee friends have brainwashed you. Or did you expect an EO that literally said “Equality for LGBTQ, but I to make it very clear that doesn’t mean trans athletes should ever he allowed to compete in women’s sports regardless of how the specific governing body decides what is best for them.  In fact, I am going to ban transgender athletes from competing in women’s sports under any circumstances.”
> 
> How on earth could the federal government even tell a private youth organization that they can’t let transgender athletes play, like most unhappy9 is worried about? All of this is a fake issue and just more lying about what the EO says.


You would love to believe your own lies..


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> I wonder if @dad4 wants to allow people to beat transgender youths to death?


 - you are such the Magat - continue to provide comedic relief.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Aw, more fake hypotheticals to support more hysteria over a fake problem.
> 
> I wonder if @dad4 wants to allow people to beat transgender youths to death?


You’re a drama queen, and I do mean that in the most complementary way.


----------



## gkrent

Any women's sport coach that excludes a promising recruit because she is gay is going to have a crappy team LOL


----------



## Lavey29

Interesting that this topic came up 22 years ago in tennis. Not really transgender but male versus female inequalities.


----------



## Desert Hound

Lavey29 said:


> Interesting that this topic came up 22 years ago in tennis. Not really transgender but male versus female inequalities.  View attachment 10014


John McEnroe is on record saying basically the same thing. That is the top women players in the world would get killed playing the men.


----------



## Lavey29

Desert Hound said:


> John McEnroe is on record saying basically the same thing. That is the top women players in the world would get killed playing the men.


I saw that too. I think its pretty safe to apply this logic across the whole spectrum of sports  from the youth level to the top levels in the world.


----------



## dad4

Desert Hound said:


> John McEnroe is on record saying basically the same thing. That is the top women players in the world would get killed playing the men.


No real contest.  King beat Riggs only because Riggs threw the match.  Riggs had some serious gambling debts, and that was a way to pay it off.

Martina couldn't even come close to Connors, even after they rewrote the rules to give her a boost.  

Number 203 beat both Williams sisters in their prime.

There is no athletic parity between men and women, nor does there need to be.  Just recognize women's sport as a beautiful thing in it's own right, and keep the men out of it.


----------



## Desert Hound

Lavey29 said:


> Interesting that this topic came up 22 years ago in tennis. Not really transgender but male versus female inequalities.  View attachment 10014


I pulled up an article talking about this. They interviewed the guy.

"My advice if you're ever in a position to play a match of this nature is be patient - don't be annoyed or surprised if your match against the Williams sisters is cancelled, as they both have very busy schedules. My game against them had to be re-organised at least a couple of times.

Preparation is crucial. Remember that a game like this is light-hearted - taking it too seriously would be a mistake. My training regime consisted of a leisurely round of golf in the morning followed by a couple of shandies. I turned up on court feeling suitably laid-back."


----------



## Desert Hound

See if you can spot the guy running in a women's event.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356360941856763908


----------



## Desert Hound

I am guessing he finally got serious about his diet and training. What an improvement. Congrats!!!


----------



## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> See if you can spot the guy running in a women's event.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356360941856763908


Yup. The biological women should just call it a day and focus on STEM. It’s over for them.


----------



## watfly

Desert Hound said:


> I am guessing he finally got serious about his diet and training. What an improvement. Congrats!!!
> 
> View attachment 10047


Her flat sprint times were faster as a transgender women than when he ran as a biological male.  The whole testosterone suppression for a year is a complete crock of shit.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Yup. The biological women should just call it a day and focus on STEM. It’s over for them.


You gonna cry?


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> You gonna cry?


Nope. I’m perfectly happy with how sports governing bodies are handling transgender athletes.  I am worried about you, however, since you keep losing on this, and every, issue. Such beautiful losing. The best losing.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> Nope. I’m perfectly happy with how sports governing bodies are handling transgender athletes.  I am worried about you, however, since you keep losing on this, and every, issue. Such beautiful losing. The best losing.


Losing?  Hound cleaned your clock with his video of that dude winning the girl’s race.

No one can watch that and think “wow, what a fast woman.”.   We all watch it and think “what kind of jerk puts a man in the women’s division?”


----------



## Scott m Shurson

LMAO!  Okay, someone rescue me here.  I can’t stop laughing enough to comment.

Former WWE superstar Gabbi Tuft comes out as transgender
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/us/wwe-superstar-gabbi-tuft-trans-trnd/index.html


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Nope. I’m perfectly happy with how sports governing bodies are handling transgender athletes.  I am worried about you, however, since you keep losing on this, and every, issue. Such beautiful losing. The best losing.


Oh, they’re going to handle it alright.  Once all this PC bullshit loses its luster we’ll go back to sanity.  The chicks with dicks can have their own “special” division with all competitions beginning after dusk... for obvious reasons.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> Losing?  Hound cleaned your clock with his video of that dude winning the girl’s race.
> 
> No one can watch that and think “wow, what a fast woman.”.   We all watch it and think “what kind of jerk puts a man in the women’s division?”


You’re funny. That race was a year and a half ago and, guess what, transgender athletes still get to participate for what, the 11th year in a row? The only folks getting their clocks cleaned are the transphobes here who are losing their s**t over a fake problem, and maybe a handful of D2 privileged snowflake Karens who aren’t ready to accept yet that they are just slow as f**k and should focus on academics instead of self-pity.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Oh, they’re going to handle it alright.  Once all this PC bullshit loses its luster we’ll go back to sanity.  The chicks with dicks can have their own “special” division with all competitions beginning after dusk... for obvious reasons.


Just more fodder to support allowing transgender athletes participate. Keep up the good work.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> LMAO!  Okay, someone rescue me here.  I can’t stop laughing enough to comment.
> 
> Former WWE superstar Gabbi Tuft comes out as transgender
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/us/wwe-superstar-gabbi-tuft-trans-trnd/index.html
> 
> View attachment 10050


Good for her.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Good for her.


Yeah, he’s going to fool everybody!  LMAO!


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> You’re funny. That race was a year and a half ago and, guess what, transgender athletes still get to participate for what, the 11th year in a row? The only folks getting their clocks cleaned are the transphobes here who are losing their s**t over a fake problem, and maybe a handful of D2 privileged snowflake Karens who aren’t ready to accept yet that they are just slow as f**k and should focus on academics instead of self-pity.


Are you hoping a duct tape company sponsors you in some women’s divisions so you can finally compete?


----------



## full90

I do think the NCAA should (and will) come up with specific metrics to measure hormones post transition.
I also think this is such an insanely small occurrence that I can understand why it’s been a non issue. The NCAA has a lot more pressing things on their plate. How many athletes are we talking about? 1 every 5 years? Out of tens of thousands? I mean “ruin college sports???” That seems extreme


----------



## EOTL

full90 said:


> I do think the NCAA should (and will) come up with specific metrics to measure hormones post transition.
> I also think this is such an insanely small occurrence that I can understand why it’s been a non issue. The NCAA has a lot more pressing things on their plate. How many athletes are we talking about? 1 every 5 years? Out of tens of thousands? I mean “ruin college sports???” That seems extreme


This is all just an excuse for bigots to fear monger over nothing. It is thoroughly enjoyable to watch them melting down though.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> You’re funny. That race was a year and a half ago and, guess what, transgender athletes still get to participate for what, the 11th year in a row? The *only folks getting their clocks cleaned are the transphobes here who are losing their s**t over a fake problem*, and maybe a handful of D2 privileged snowflake Karens who aren’t ready to accept yet that they are just slow as f**k and should focus on academics instead of self-pity.


Funny, the video show bio females getting their clocks cleaned by a bio male.  Beyond that, looks like bureaucracy is working for some.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> This is all just an excuse for bigots to fear monger over nothing. It is thoroughly enjoyable to watch them melting down though.


Nahh, it's just an excuse to get you all frothy.  Smart people who don't agree know it's a small population and not the end of the world.  Doesn't diminish the fact that some people disagree and have the right to disagree.  Unlike you, many people don't feel the need to kneel before legislation and have stuff jammed down their throat.


----------



## EOTL

happy9 said:


> Nahh, it's just an excuse to get you all frothy.  Smart people who don't agree know it's a small population and not the end of the world.  Doesn't diminish the fact that some people disagree and have the right to disagree.  Unlike you, many people don't feel the need to kneel before legislation and have stuff jammed down their throat.


Uh, I do not believe there is a single law requiring transgender athlete participation. There was a law in Idaho banning it, until is got smacked down as unconstitutional. Are you saying you hate the Constitution?  Of course you do. You’ve already made it clear how much you hate the 1st Amendment.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Uh, I do not believe there is a single law requiring transgender athlete participation. There was a law in Idaho banning it, until is got smacked down as unconstitutional. Are you saying you hate the Constitution?  Of course you do. You’ve already made it clear how much you hate the 1st Amendment.


 spin me right 'round, baby
Right 'round like a record, baby
Right 'round, 'round, 'round
You spin me right 'round, baby
Right 'round like a record, baby
Right 'round, 'round, 'round


----------



## eastbaysoccer

xx is a girl
xy is a boy

very simple


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Uh, I do not believe there is a single law requiring transgender athlete participation. There was a law in Idaho banning it, until is got smacked down as unconstitutional. Are you saying you hate the Constitution?  Of course you do. You’ve already made it clear how much you hate the 1st Amendment.


Sorry, Ladyboy, but you’re going to have to stop using EOTL and LGBTQXYZ because the city of ‘Frisco has deemed acronyms offensive and racist to non English speaking citizens in the U.S.  Uh, my bad Ladyboy, “United States”.  No word yet if BLM will change their name since the rules for everyone else never apply to them.

Now, I’m not sure who can’t speak English in the U.S., nor am I sure how non English speakers are offended by acronyms for words they can’t understand to begin with, but it’s clear you professional crybabies are starting to shoot yourselves in the head.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Sorry, Ladyboy, but you’re going to have to stop using EOTL and LGBTQXYZ because the city of ‘Frisco has deemed acronyms offensive and racist to non English speaking citizens in the U.S.  Uh, my bad Ladyboy, “United States”.  No word yet if BLM will change their name since the rules for everyone else never apply to them.
> 
> Now, I’m not sure who can’t speak English in the U.S., nor am I sure how non English speakers are offended by acronyms for words they can’t understand to begin with, but it’s clear you professional crybabies are starting to shoot yourselves in the head.


Again, you have it backwards. I am quite happy with how things are going. Did your daughter qualify ninth for an eight person race?


----------



## watfly

Sandypk said:


> Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds
> 
> 
> The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Did we really need a study to know that?  Bigger no shit.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Yeah, he’s going to fool everybody!  LMAO!
> 
> View attachment 10051


@texanincali maybe you can start here holding people accountable.



Scott m Shurson said:


> Can we just create a tranny division?  I’ll bring the popcorn and jockstraps.


Or here.



Scott m Shurson said:


> In retrospect, you don’t have time for a hobby.  You don’t have time for kids in youth soccer, either.
> 
> Let’s do the tranny division thingy since they aren’t good enough to get a trophy with their own gender.  Let’s lower the bar like we’re doing with everyone else.  Nothing says “success” like a boy in lipstick crushing little girls at the finish line.
> 
> One question, though.  Will that be enough to make daddy love them?


Or this. 



warrior49 said:


> Insane. You can cut the thorns off a rose but it's still a rose.


Or this.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> @texanincali maybe you can start here holding people accountable.
> 
> 
> 
> Or here.
> 
> 
> 
> Or this.
> 
> 
> 
> Or this.


Or this.  Or here.  Or there.  

LMAO!


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Again, you have it backwards. I am quite happy with how things are going. Did your daughter qualify ninth for an eight person race?


No, you and your guy friends are the ones taping it “backwards”.  

Does it hurt to run like that?  Really need to clear those hurdles, right?


----------



## texanincali

EOTL said:


> @texanincali maybe you can start here holding people accountable.


Its not my job to hold people accountable.  Not really a big believer in that outside of people who work for me and my kids.


----------



## Desert Hound

full90 said:


> How many athletes are we talking about? 1 every 5 years? Out of tens of thousands? I mean “ruin college sports???” That seems extreme


Does it matter? Yes.

Tell it to some woman in college losing to a guy. Tell her hey this doesn't happen to often. Suck it up buttercup. Is that the attitude? Take one for the team...pretend you lost to a women and everything was equal.

It is pretty simple. You want to wear a dress, have at it. Do as you will. Guys pretending they are women don't get to play in women's sports however.

People need to stop worrying about being politically correct and say you know what? There is a reason we have women's and men's divisions.


----------



## full90

I didn’t say “it doesn’t matter.” I said it’s not a threat to ruin college sports. 
I’ve also said the high school rules regarding it need to be examined and ncaa rules need to be reviewed to make sure it’s governed well.

it absolutely matters. I just don’t think it’s frequent enough to be labeled as the downfall of college sports.

and there have been women competing in ncaa sports for years who were born with both parts but their parents selected them to be women. Yet there are clear signs that they retained a lot of male features and attributes. For those cases only the coaching staff and athletic trainers are in the know and there are no hormone or other metrics those women had to meet. Yet they certainly had physical advantages and received scholarships and playing time and opportunities ahead of 100% genetic women. I know of 3 and the coaches and trainers handled it with the utmost sensitivity and care for the young women who obviously had a lot to juggle within themselves. I’m sure there are others. 

All this to say this has been going on for years and college sports hasn’t been ruined.


----------



## Desert Hound

full90 said:


> I just don’t think it’s frequent enough to be labeled as the downfall of college sports.


Ok the label the person used to start the thread is off....ie ruin or the downfall of sports. It wont ruin the entire sport. It will however affect those women athletes that lose to men who now compete against them. 

So we are stuck with this. 

If a guy wants to play on the women's team, the college will say no, this is a women's team. But when that guy says hey I identify as a women...now we are supposed to go...OH OK well why didn't you say that. In that case you are in!

It is ridiculous some people think this is OK. 

It is as ridiculous as me (a white guy) suddenly declaring I am black and applying for minority loans, hoping to get grants set aside for minorities, and so on. People would rightly tell me dude go home you are white. But in regards to sex we are supposed to pretend for sports a guy who dresses up as a chick can play women's sports?

Common sense in both of the above scenarios say NO.


----------



## MacDre

Desert Hound said:


> It is as ridiculous as me (a white guy) suddenly declaring I am black and applying for minority loans, hoping to get grants set aside for minorities, and so on.


Is your real name Steve Martin?








						The Jerk - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> Is your real name Steve Martin?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Jerk - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org


That was a funny movie


----------



## full90

Desert Hound said:


> Ok the label the person used to start the thread is off....ie ruin or the downfall of sports. It wont ruin the entire sport. It will however affect those women athletes that lose to men who now compete against them.
> 
> So we are stuck with this.
> 
> If a guy wants to play on the women's team, the college will say no, this is a women's team. But when that guy says hey I identify as a women...now we are supposed to go...OH OK well why didn't you say that. In that case you are in!
> 
> It is ridiculous some people think this is OK.
> 
> It is as ridiculous as me (a white guy) suddenly declaring I am black and applying for minority loans, hoping to get grants set aside for minorities, and so on. People would rightly tell me dude go home you are white. But in regards to sex we are supposed to pretend for sports a guy who dresses up as a chick can play women's sports?
> 
> Common sense in both of the above scenarios say NO.


There have been and will be ZERO INSTANCES where a man realizes that he won’t excel or advance in his chosen sport at his talent/ability level and then decides “I know! I’ll become a woman in order to make the team/get a scholarship/win the title” 
That has not nor will ever happen. To reduce these people’s choices down to a sports advantage is so ignorant and asinine.
I don’t even think they should be allowed to compete with women without serious governance and even I can empathize with the difficult lives and inner battles they face. Have some humanity. If it was your kid you’d hope for some empathy and compassion.


----------



## dad4

full90 said:


> There have been and will be ZERO INSTANCES where a man realizes that he won’t excel or advance in his chosen sport at his talent/ability level and then decides “I know! I’ll become a woman in order to make the team/get a scholarship/win the title”
> That has not nor will ever happen. To reduce these people’s choices down to a sports advantage is so ignorant and asinine.
> I don’t even think they should be allowed to compete with women without serious governance and even I can empathize with the difficult lives and inner battles they face. Have some humanity. If it was your kid you’d hope for some empathy and compassion.


Is anyone accusing anyone of faking trans status?  I agree it isn’t an issue.  Nor is it a question of the end of all women’s sport.

There is an issue, for certain events in certain states, with women being relegated to second tier status in their own sport.  

And, so far, no one* here on the left has been willing to talk about the girls who spend 5 years training in a sport, only to find out that the top one or two slots are occupied by boys.  

*Except EOTL.  He wants to insult any girls in that situation.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Is anyone accusing anyone of faking trans status?  I agree it isn’t an issue.  Nor is it a question of the end of all women’s sport.
> 
> There is an issue, for certain events in certain states, with women being relegated to second tier status in their own sport.
> 
> And, so far, no one* here on the left has been willing to talk about the girls who spend 5 years training in a sport, only to find out that the top one or two slots are occupied by boys.
> 
> *Except EOTL.  He wants to insult any girls in that situation.


Okay, I’ll bite.  Could you please define girl and boy?


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> There is an issue, for certain events in certain states, with women being relegated to second tier status in their own sport.


^^^^^ This is the reason.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Okay, I’ll bite.  Could you please define girl and boy?


Chromosomally, based on the (normally 2) copies of chromosome 23.

For humans, XY are boys, XX are girls.  XXY are intersex, as are some whose X chromosome has significant Y elements that did not come from the pseudoautonomal region.

Birds are different.  And bees have the whole queen/drone thing going on.  But human biological gender is pretty simple.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Chromosomally, based on the (normally 2) copies of chromosome 23.
> 
> For humans, XY are boys, XX are girls.  XXY are intersex, as are some whose X chromosome has significant Y elements that did not come from the pseudoautonomal region.
> 
> Birds are different.  And bees have the whole queen/drone thing going on.  But human biological gender is pretty simple.


Many moons ago we thought Earth was flat.  Maybe Mendelian genetics is wrong too.  Maybe your definition of boys and girls is too narrow and should be broadened to include trans folks or other genetic variants.


----------



## EOTL

dad4 said:


> Is anyone accusing anyone of faking trans status?  I agree it isn’t an issue.  Nor is it a question of the end of all women’s sport.
> 
> There is an issue, for certain events in certain states, with women being relegated to second tier status in their own sport.
> 
> And, so far, no one* here on the left has been willing to talk about the girls who spend 5 years training in a sport, only to find out that the top one or two slots are occupied by boys.
> 
> *Except EOTL.  He wants to insult any girls in that situation.


Just the whiny snowflake karens who sue because they don’t like the rules. Pathetic.


----------



## tjinaz

I believe South Park already covered this.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Many moons ago we thought Earth was flat.  Maybe Mendelian genetics is wrong too.  Maybe your definition of boys and girls is too narrow and should be broadened to include trans folks or other genetic variants.


I have no problem calling her by her name at the next dinner party, supposing we are ever allowed to have those again.  That is a social situation, and requires a social definition.

But, for sport, you have a very serious biological question.  For that reason, you need a biological definition.  It just doesn't happen to match my social definition.

In other words, she can be one of the girls who, for various reasons, is competing in the boys division.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> I have no problem calling her by her name at the next dinner party, supposing we are ever allowed to have those again.  That is a social situation, and requires a social definition.
> 
> But, for sport, you have a very serious biological question.  For that reason, you need a biological definition.  It just doesn't happen to match my social definition.
> 
> In other words, she can be one of the girls who, for various reasons, is competing in the boys division.


Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological.  I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological.  I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.


Interesting viewpoint, mind elaborating on your biological angle?


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Fallacious reasoning because you have assumed being trans is a social construct and not biological.  I think being trans is biological and therein lies the difference in our viewpoints.


Whether or not it is biological, the mechanism does not involve a significant reduction to the secondary sexual characteristics which give an advantage in sport.

So, in terms of biology for sport, that "girl" is a boy.

Now, is there some brain chemistry involved?  Sure.  But brain chemistry isn't what gives my son an unfair advantage when running against girls.  

And unfair advantage is the right question when bracketing a sports event.


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

Lurked forever but finally have to post.  I have a transgender daughter, biologically male.  She has started hormone treatments.  She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play.  We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past.  she plays two sports with other girls.  She fits in with other girls.  Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her.  It is youth sports.  The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports.  She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field.  As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic.  The other kids don't care.  It is small minded parents who do.


----------



## Soccerfan2

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> Lurked forever but finally have to post.  I have a transgender daughter, biologically male.  She has started hormone treatments.  She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play.  We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past.  she plays two sports with other girls.  She fits in with other girls.  Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her.  It is youth sports.  The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports.  She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field.  As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic.  The other kids don't care.  It is small minded parents who do.


Thanks for sharing. Good to hear from someone with first hand experience.


----------



## dad4

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> Lurked forever but finally have to post.  I have a transgender daughter, biologically male.  She has started hormone treatments.  She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play.  We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past.  she plays two sports with other girls.  She fits in with other girls.  Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her.  It is youth sports.  The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports.  She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field.  As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic.  The other kids don't care.  It is small minded parents who do.


What age kid, what type of city?

 ( SF bay area here, which may or may not distort my perception of the world. )


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

dad4 said:


> What age kid, what type of city?
> 
> ( SF bay area here, which may or may not distort my perception of the world. )


Now 15 year old girl.  Inland area of SoCal.  Her preference would have been to quit sports because it was too hard but we fought for her to play.  Once she found teams who were willing to get to know her she was glad and has thrived.   The other kids are great and having teammates has made school so much better for her.  Once kids know her everything is easier.  She did run track in middle school.  Now it is all team sports, but I suppose she is taking a spot from another girl.  But the kids who compete against her don't even think of her as a boy with some unfair advantage, so far as I have ever seen.  Trust me, this kid has had ZERO advantage in her life.  Sports or otherwise.


----------



## dad4

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> Now 15 year old girl.  Inland area of SoCal.  Her preference would have been to quit sports because it was too hard but we fought for her to play.  Once she found teams who were willing to get to know her she was glad and has thrived.   The other kids are great and having teammates has made school so much better for her.  Once kids know her everything is easier.  She did run track in middle school.  Now it is all team sports, but I suppose she is taking a spot from another girl.  But the kids who compete against her don't even think of her as a boy with some unfair advantage, so far as I have ever seen.  Trust me, this kid has had ZERO advantage in her life.  Sports or otherwise.


Thanks.

A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot  away from another girl.   It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports.  It's harder when you start cutting kids.

The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

dad4 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot  away from another girl.   It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports.  It's harder when you start cutting kids.
> 
> The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.


What would you suggest is the best option for my daughter?  if you are so worried about kids who might be cut because she wants to play a sport that my daughter should not be allowed to try to make the team?


----------



## tjinaz

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> Lurked forever but finally have to post.  I have a transgender daughter, biologically male.  She has started hormone treatments.  She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play.  We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past.  she plays two sports with other girls.  She fits in with other girls.  Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her.  It is youth sports.  The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports.  She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field.  As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic.  The other kids don't care.  It is small minded parents who do.


I appreciate your post.  It is honest and expresses your reality. You seem like a good parent that is looking out for the welfare of their child.  I personally have no issue with transgender kids playing in youth sports.  The key is when you say "could keep an even playing field" in soccer we have age bands to keep players who are larger, faster and stronger in their own lane and to give everyone a fair chance.    Your daughter having been born male has biological advantages over mine given the same birth year.  There is such a variation in the kids it may not even be an issue but then again it may.  We played against a Boise Thorns ECNL team that had a child similar to yours and none of our parents had an issue with it.  She played well and wasn't all that different from the rest of the girls in size and speed.  My DD, love her to death, is simply not good enough and will never be competing for scholarships or top teams. so we don't particularly care, play for fun but love the competition.  You would be welcome on our team.  I don't think most parents would have a problem with it unless she started to dominate games.   

 In writing this post I actually looked up the guidelines from our governing body.  I can attach it if anyone wants to see it but it basically is an interview process.  I don't think there is actual testing involved until the collegiate level.  The youth athletic association wants to hear your story and will approve or deny based on what is said and the supporting medical documentation.  The key phrase in the entire document is this:
_"upon review of the above documentation, finds that the student’s request is appropriate and is not motivated by an improper purpose and there are no adverse health risks to the athlete, then a supportive recommendation shall be made by the committee to the AIA Executive Board for the athlete’s participation in sex-segregated activities consistent with the student’s gender identity_." 

  That is really the crux of the argument "_is not motivated by an improper purpose_".  Unless there are scholarships or advancement opportunities on the line.. you are right it is petty.  However at the top levels the investment by parents and players is great and every advantage accounted for. Being born a male does give physiological advantages their kids don't have. You seem to simply want your child to play sports and that is noble but that does not mean others could not take unfair advantage.


----------



## MacDre

tjinaz said:


> I appreciate your post.  It is honest and expresses your reality. You seem like a good parent that is looking out for the welfare of their child.  I personally have no issue with transgender kids playing in youth sports.  The key is when you say "could keep an even playing field" in soccer we have age bands to keep players who are larger, faster and stronger in their own lane and to give everyone a fair chance.    Your daughter having been born male has biological advantages over mine given the same birth year.  There is such a variation in the kids it may not even be an issue but then again it may.  We played against a Boise Thorns ECNL team that had a child similar to yours and none of our parents had an issue with it.  She played well and wasn't all that different from the rest of the girls in size and speed.  My DD, love her to death, is simply not good enough and will never be competing for scholarships or top teams. so we don't particularly care, play for fun but love the competition.  You would be welcome on our team.  I don't think most parents would have a problem with it unless she started to dominate games.
> 
> In writing this post I actually looked up the guidelines from our governing body.  I can attach it if anyone wants to see it but it basically is an interview process.  I don't think there is actual testing involved until the collegiate level.  The youth athletic association wants to hear your story and will approve or deny based on what is said and the supporting medical documentation.  The key phrase in the entire document is this:
> _"upon review of the above documentation, finds that the student’s request is appropriate and is not motivated by an improper purpose and there are no adverse health risks to the athlete, then a supportive recommendation shall be made by the committee to the AIA Executive Board for the athlete’s participation in sex-segregated activities consistent with the student’s gender identity_."
> 
> That is really the crux of the argument "_is not motivated by an improper purpose_".  Unless there are scholarships or advancement opportunities on the line.. you are right it is petty.  However at the top levels the investment by parents and players is great and every advantage accounted for. Being born a male does give physiological advantages their kids don't have. You seem to simply want your child to play sports and that is noble but that does not mean others could not take unfair advantage.


Nice windup, but this is pure unadulterated fear mongering.


----------



## dad4

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> What would you suggest is the best option for my daughter?  if you are so worried about kids who might be cut because she wants to play a sport that my daughter should not be allowed to try to make the team?


Oooof.  Agree it isn't easy.

I am so worried about the other girl who does get cut in this situation.  Trying to make the team isn't really a fair contest.

Your daughter has a larger rib cage, more height, and a different muscle chemistry than the cis-gender girls who are trying out.

That gap will grow as she gets older.  And there isn't really a way to make it a fair contest.  One girl had testosterone and the other did not.

If your daughter were a weaker athlete, then girls rec sports would be fine.  No one loses.

If you lived in a more accepting area, then rec boys sports would be fine, for the same reason.  It sounds like she tried it and that was not her experience.  Which is sad.

So, no solutions from me.  I don't know.

Same as you don't have any suggestions for the girl who got cut.  She wanted to play, too.  I don't know why sidelining her is supposed to be any better.


----------



## full90

I’d be so bummed for my daughter to get cut or lose time to a biological male turned female. 
Id also be so bummed for my transgendered child to be excluded from a team because of this issue.

I don’t have a perfect solution but what has led me to keep posting on this thread is the utter lack of empathy.

I know two families personally who have faced this and it’s been incredibly difficult. One is a sports family and the marriage didn’t make it and a spot on a competitive team was nowhere on the list of priorities. Should the local club have asked for documentation and doctors input that this was indeed an issue? Idk maybe? Or take an extra player on the team? Idk?

the kids on the team btw were all fine. Happy for the now girl to be a part of the team. They knew her as a boy and handled it amazingly.

it’s obviously more an issue as the sports get more competitive. Solutions are tough for sure.


----------



## FutbolHeidiHo

dad4 said:


> Oooof.  Agree it isn't easy.
> 
> I am so worried about the other girl who does get cut in this situation.  Trying to make the team isn't really a fair contest.
> 
> Your daughter has a larger rib cage, more height, and a different muscle chemistry than the cis-gender girls who are trying out.
> 
> That gap will grow as she gets older.  And there isn't really a way to make it a fair contest.  One girl had testosterone and the other did not.
> 
> If your daughter were a weaker athlete, then girls rec sports would be fine.  No one loses.
> 
> If you lived in a more accepting area, then rec boys sports would be fine, for the same reason.  It sounds like she tried it and that was not her experience.  Which is sad.
> 
> So, no solutions from me.  I don't know.
> 
> Same as you don't have any suggestions for the girl who got cut.  She wanted to play, too.  I don't know why sidelining her is supposed to be any better.


High school sports have many roster spots, it feels like you are worried about something that doesn't exist.  No one gets cut to make room for the transgender kid.  It is just part of the evolution of society.  our kids seem ok with it.  We old people seem to struggle more and make excuses for how it can cause harm.  As for club soccer, we pay for her club team.  In my experience they take all who will pay to be on it ...she's certainly not hurting anyone there.

Soccer of all the sports is the best one for her to be in.  Size really is not a factor in greatness.  She doesn't have a nasty coach or nasty parents so isn't taking kids out.  Yes, she is taller.  So what?  There are plenty of girls on the filed taller than she is.  If she was using physical attributes to hurt other girls I would expect the refs and coaches to stop it.  I only posted because I wish others could know none of this is a real issue.  No one cares.  These kids are being used by the media in a way that simply does not exist in the real world of youth sports.


----------



## Desert Hound

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> As for club soccer, we pay for her club team. In my experience they take all who will pay to be on it ...she's certainly not hurting anyone there.


There are only a finite amount of spots on a team. Your kid being on a team takes a spot from a girl.

There are only so many spots on HS teams and not all the girls make the cut. If you kid get gets selected then a girl just lost a spot to a boy.

That is the reality.


----------



## Grace T.

full90 said:


> I’d be so bummed for my daughter to get cut or lose time to a biological male turned female.
> Id also be so bummed for my transgendered child to be excluded from a team because of this issue.
> 
> I don’t have a perfect solution but what has led me to keep posting on this thread is the utter lack of empathy.
> 
> I know two families personally who have faced this and it’s been incredibly difficult. One is a sports family and the marriage didn’t make it and a spot on a competitive team was nowhere on the list of priorities. Should the local club have asked for documentation and doctors input that this was indeed an issue? Idk maybe? Or take an extra player on the team? Idk?
> 
> the kids on the team btw were all fine. Happy for the now girl to be a part of the team. They knew her as a boy and handled it amazingly.
> 
> it’s obviously more an issue as the sports get more competitive. Solutions are tough for sure.


O.k.  Here's my take which is likely to make me unpopular with either side but it means I'm probably on to something.  And I say this as someone with a bit of background in this situation being LGBTQ myself, and having a relative who is T.

Firstly, sports is never fair.  My son is August birthday and a GK.  He was the tallest in his age group, but when they moved around the age groups he has to compete now against kids with 6 months growth on him.  He's in the 75% of height for males, so not a short keeper by any means, but still that 6 months makes a huge difference.  He also wound up losing a year of development when they changed the years.  Similarly, if there are any girls on your teams with a mix of chromosomes (like the xxy) , or if they just happen to be genetically early bloomers and towered over their teammates when they were 10, or even if they are over 6 ft, there's nothing fair about that either.  

What's "fair" or "unfair" here is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  Any fidgeting of the rules will produce winners and losers, since there are finite places on a team.   It's not "fair" if your DD gets cut from their dream team because somebody who looks like a guy walks in from tryouts and just blows away everyone even the strongest girls.  It's not "fair" either to send the trans kid who has behaved as a girl since they were 8 and is on hormone blockers to compete against 18 year guys.  Start from the position there is no "fairness" here.  Also start from the position that I have yet to see a dude decide he wants to compete in women's sports just to gain a scholarship or trophy (though it also wouldn't surprise me to eventually see one or two).

For 10 years or so, before the woke knives came out, we had the NCAA standards.  They, IIRC, required an athlete to be on hormones before being allowed to compete with the other sex.  They worked for a long time before politics overwhelmed this issue.

Knowing that no solution can ever be perfect, and understanding we have to try to take into account the concerns of all participants, I'd think a siding scale is the most appropriate scale.  For youth rec, who cares.  I once had to referee an AYSO game with a kid  who was MTF, 9 years old or so, playing with the girls.  Very sweet kid, somewhat in love with the attention being given, and could not see that child playing with the boys and not getting hurt and/or bullied.  For youth club sports, it's tricky because it's at an age before hormones are advised, but I can see a rule where hormones and/or testosterone blockers are required for some length of time, but the rules should be less stringent since it is a team sport and the contribution of any 1 athlete is limited.  For individual youth sports, because the performance is so dependent on the performance of an athlete a stricter rule is called for.   For college athletics, the rules should be even stricter and require a prolonged period on hormone blockers and estrogen, plus either a transition or an active moment towards transition within the coming months  For Olympic level competition, it wouldn't be unreasonable to require the transition to have occurred.

None of this is entirely "fair" to anyone.  But it recognizes there are competing concerns on both ends of the spectrum.  Whether or not a transition really makes someone a "real boy" or "real girl" is besides the point here...who cares....it's all about definitional nonsense either....and no a transition does not make you magically into a biological female.  We need to balance compassion on one end of the spectrum with fairness on the other, knowing that "fairness" is impossible to achieve in sports. We were headed in that direction before politics inserted its dirty nose into this issue.


----------



## Desert Hound

"For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts."

"Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers."










						Transgender women outpace cisgender women in athletic tests after 1 year on hormones
					

Pretreatment differences in athletic performance for transgender women in the U.S. Air Force vs. cisgender women continue more than 1 year after startingfeminizing therapy, according to findings published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. “Transgender women retain an advantage in upper...




					www.healio.com


----------



## Desert Hound

Now in the US and many places people talk about putting men on hormone drugs to reduce their levels of testosterone. 

This is the level currently used to allow men to play in many women's sports: 10 nmol/L

By way of comparison most women fall in the range of 0.35 - 2.43 nmol/L

So even after taking drugs to reduce the advantage that men have, transgenders have significantly more vs women. That makes a difference. 

Some world sports bodies now say 5 nmol/L to play in women's sports. 

Again that is more than double what most women actually have. 

Even with the drugs it isn't a fair playing field.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> O.k.  Here's my take which is likely to make me unpopular with either side but it means I'm probably on to something.  And I say this as someone with a bit of background in this situation being LGBTQ myself, and having a relative who is T.
> 
> Firstly, sports is never fair.  My son is August birthday and a GK.  He was the tallest in his age group, but when they moved around the age groups he has to compete now against kids with 6 months growth on him.  He's in the 75% of height for males, so not a short keeper by any means, but still that 6 months makes a huge difference.  He also wound up losing a year of development when they changed the years.  Similarly, if there are any girls on your teams with a mix of chromosomes (like the xxy) , or if they just happen to be genetically early bloomers and towered over their teammates when they were 10, or even if they are over 6 ft, there's nothing fair about that either.
> 
> What's "fair" or "unfair" here is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  Any fidgeting of the rules will produce winners and losers, since there are finite places on a team.   It's not "fair" if your DD gets cut from their dream team because somebody who looks like a guy walks in from tryouts and just blows away everyone even the strongest girls.  It's not "fair" either to send the trans kid who has behaved as a girl since they were 8 and is on hormone blockers to compete against 18 year guys.  Start from the position there is no "fairness" here.  Also start from the position that I have yet to see a dude decide he wants to compete in women's sports just to gain a scholarship or trophy (though it also wouldn't surprise me to eventually see one or two).
> 
> For 10 years or so, before the woke knives came out, we had the NCAA standards.  They, IIRC, required an athlete to be on hormones before being allowed to compete with the other sex.  They worked for a long time before politics overwhelmed this issue.
> 
> Knowing that no solution can ever be perfect, and understanding we have to try to take into account the concerns of all participants, I'd think a siding scale is the most appropriate scale.  For youth rec, who cares.  I once had to referee an AYSO game with a kid  who was MTF, 9 years old or so, playing with the girls.  Very sweet kid, somewhat in love with the attention being given, and could not see that child playing with the boys and not getting hurt and/or bullied.  For youth club sports, it's tricky because it's at an age before hormones are advised, but I can see a rule where hormones and/or testosterone blockers are required for some length of time, but the rules should be less stringent since it is a team sport and the contribution of any 1 athlete is limited.  For individual youth sports, because the performance is so dependent on the performance of an athlete a stricter rule is called for.   For college athletics, the rules should be even stricter and require a prolonged period on hormone blockers and estrogen, plus either a transition or an active moment towards transition within the coming months  For Olympic level competition, it wouldn't be unreasonable to require the transition to have occurred.
> 
> None of this is entirely "fair" to anyone.  But it recognizes there are competing concerns on both ends of the spectrum.  Whether or not a transition really makes someone a "real boy" or "real girl" is besides the point here...who cares....it's all about definitional nonsense either....and no a transition does not make you magically into a biological female.  We need to balance compassion on one end of the spectrum with fairness on the other, knowing that "fairness" is impossible to achieve in sports. We were headed in that direction before politics inserted its dirty nose into this issue.


I think you’re asking more from hormone blockers than they can provide.  They do not appear to create a level playing field, or even come close.

Even after transition, the XY person still has very significant athletic advantges over the XX person.  

It would be nice if it did.  We could all feel great about being inclusive.  But that isn’t the way biology works.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I think you’re asking more from hormone blockers than they can provide.  They do not appear to create a level playing field, or even come close.
> 
> Even after transition, the XY person still has very significant athletic advantges over the XX person.
> 
> It would be nice if it did.  We could all feel great about being inclusive.  But that isn’t the way biology works.


No, I recognize the limitation.  But I also recognize we aren't going to get to perfect fairness here either.  There isn't a perfect here.  It's a balancing between inclusiveness and fairness concerns.  It's not fair either that the kid at 12 years old who is 6 foot gets to play against the other boys who are all barely 5, but we still let them play too.  To the extent steps can be taken to mitigate the imbalance they should (as well as make sure that the athlete is serious about their goal).

p.s. it's hilarious I'm more woke on this issue than you, isn't it?

p.p.s. I'm frankly surprised to see you posting on the issue too (though I appreciate the independence of thought).  Would have thought you'd be afraid of being cancelled by your own side.


----------



## Eagle33

Grace T. said:


> No, I recognize the limitation.  But I also recognize we aren't going to get to perfect fairness here either.  There isn't a perfect here.  It's a balancing between inclusiveness and fairness concerns.  It's not fair either that the kid at 12 years old who is 6 foot gets to play against the other boys who are all barely 5, but we still let them play too.  To the extent steps can be taken to mitigate the imbalance they should (as well as make sure that the athlete is serious about their goal).
> 
> p.s. it's hilarious I'm more woke on this issue than you, isn't it?
> 
> p.p.s. I'm frankly surprised to see you posting on the issue too (though I appreciate the independence of thought).  Would have thought you'd be afraid of being cancelled by your own side.


Fairness in any sports is very subjective. I have seen girls playing with boys who are clearly better than boys. I have seen freshmen playing Varsity in HS who is clearly better than varsity players. It's all about ability, physiology, hard work and talent - not gender related.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No, I recognize the limitation.  But I also recognize we aren't going to get to perfect fairness here either.  There isn't a perfect here.  It's a balancing between inclusiveness and fairness concerns.  It's not fair either that the kid at 12 years old who is 6 foot gets to play against the other boys who are all barely 5, but we still let them play too.  To the extent steps can be taken to mitigate the imbalance they should (as well as make sure that the athlete is serious about their goal).
> 
> p.s. it's hilarious I'm more woke on this issue than you, isn't it?
> 
> p.p.s. I'm frankly surprised to see you posting on the issue too (though I appreciate the independence of thought).  Would have thought you'd be afraid of being cancelled by your own side.


I wouldn’t be strict on it if I thought other people would move a trans athlete to the boys side when they begin to dominate on the girls side.

Unfortunately, that does not appear to be how people work.  Most want to win, and will leave a dominant player on the field long after it’s clear they are ruining the game for the other players.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> I wouldn’t be strict on it if I thought other people would move a trans athlete to the boys side when they begin to dominate on the girls side.
> 
> Unfortunately, that does not appear to be how people work.  Most want to win, and will leave a dominant player on the field long after it’s clear they are ruining the game for the other players.


Oh I'd be in favor of the reverse too.  Testosterone is clearly a performance enhancing drug.  But then I think the higher level teams should be screening for performance drugs too at the higher teen levels.

p.s. it's even funnier for this structure you are going with the "people aren't angels" argument, when I've put that to you about the  lockdowns forever.


----------



## LadiesMan217




----------



## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> Curious how this will affect female college athletes? How would you feel if your daughter missed her opportunity to play college soccer because of this new change?View attachment 9985


Now that college soccer season is starting up, it’s probably a good time to evaluate whether college sports has been “eviscerated” yet. Is anyone seeing  transgender athletes “eviscerating” the college soccer landscape?  I mean, these transgender rules have been in place for over a decade, so presumably we’d know by now right? Or is Abigail Shrier just trying to scare the trumpanzee buffoonery into losing their collective snowflakey minds over a non-issue?


----------



## soccersc

EOTL said:


> Now that college soccer season is starting up, it’s probably a good time to evaluate whether college sports has been “eviscerated” yet. Is anyone seeing  transgender athletes “eviscerating” the college soccer landscape?  I mean, these transgender rules have been in place for over a decade, so presumably we’d know by now right? Or is Abigail Shrier just trying to scare the trumpanzee buffoonery into losing their collective snowflakey minds over a non-issue?


You are really looking hard for any type interaction aren't you.  Do you have anyone else besides this board you can confide in? I worry for you.  You are reaching and you look very desperate!!


----------



## Kicker4Life

soccersc said:


> You are really looking hard for any type interaction aren't you.  Do you have anyone else besides this board you can confide in? I worry for you.  You are reaching and you look very desperate!!


A troll has to troll.....otherwise it’s just a lonely pathetic existence trying to spark reactions out of people on a youth soccer forum.


----------



## EOTL

soccersc said:


> You are really looking hard for any type interaction aren't you.  Do you have anyone else besides this board you can confide in? I worry for you.  You are reaching and you look very desperate!!


Let me make sure I have your point of view correct. When people make gratuitous bigoted comments about transgender athletes “eviscerating” women’s sports, that’s not trolling, but pointing out how ludicrous their statements are is trolling, in your opinion?

So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with your magat perspective is a troll?  When someone points out that your ridiculously stupid predictions about the future have not been born out, that is trolling?

Like all trumpanzees, Snowflake just wants to say stupid s**t without accountability.


----------



## whatithink

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> Lurked forever but finally have to post.  I have a transgender daughter, biologically male.  She has started hormone treatments.  She loves sports, and doesn't care about winning or losing, just wants to play.  We decided it was not safe for her to play on male teams because she has been physically assualted, targeted and severly bullied in the past.  she plays two sports with other girls.  She fits in with other girls.  Our experience is that the girls do not care at all; they like her.  It is youth sports.  The people who care that much are smart enough to keep it to themselves to our faces, I guess, because they know how pathetic it sounds to be that worked up about chiuldren's sports.  She does not plan to compete in college, but if she did I assume the governing bodies would mandate hormone testing or whatever else could keep an even playing field.  As far as elementary, middle chool and high school sports are concerned, though, anyone who wants to sideline these kids is just pathetic.  The other kids don't care.  It is small minded parents who do.


Great to see your kid is getting to play. The reaction to this is pathetic, agree with you on that.

I know my son regularly plays against boys who are many inches taller and 40+ pounds heavier, and likewise with my daughter. I don't hear any of those parents complaining about their kids having a physical advantage because they were "fortunate" that their kids hit puberty sooner (more so than genetics) but I guess it will eventually even out. 

I have seen a girl, who identified as a boy, play on a U15 boys team and the boys were cool with it, so agree with you that the kids could care less. The parents were surprised at first and then just shrugged and carried on.

I see many refs to elite level & college, but less to the fact that if a kid gets dropped, then that kid was #18 on the roster and at best marginally elite (hint, if you're #18 on the roster in the eyes of the coach on an elite team, move ...). My view is that if your kid isn't a starter then the coach is looking to replace them. If your kid is a starter, then you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## soccersc

EOTL said:


> Let me make sure I have your point of view correct. When people make gratuitous bigoted comments about transgender athletes “eviscerating” women’s sports, that’s not trolling, but pointing out how ludicrous their statements are is trolling, in your opinion?
> 
> So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with your magat perspective is a troll?  When someone points out that your ridiculously stupid predictions about the future have not been born out, that is trolling?
> 
> Like all trumpanzees, Snowflake just wants to say stupid s**t without accountability.


You actually missed it.  I'll set you straight, people haven't been responding to your post so you go back to a comment made on Feb 18th, weeks ago, and try to get someone to bite... presumably because you have nobody else to talk to...how about go outside and kick the ball around with your kid? You'd rather be online all day? You need people to respond to you because you are unfulfilled and you need something to fill that time and space, very sad...It has nothing to do with peoples gratuitous bigoted comments, but because you have nothing better to do, you try to instigate, best part is, people on this board are getting tired of responding to you, because you have nothing original to bring. You keep going back to the same stuff over and over.  Totally like CNN, NBC, all those networks, turn them on right now, go ahead, I don't even need to be on and I already know....they are talking about Trump, why? because, like you they cant see beyond their own shadow and are incapable of having any deep rhetoric, so they keep repeating themselves, just like you!!!


----------



## Kicker4Life

soccersc said:


> You actually missed it.  I'll set you straight, people haven't been responding to your post so you go back to a comment made on Feb 18th, weeks ago, and try to get someone to bite... presumably because you have nobody else to talk to...how about go outside and kick the ball around with your kid? You'd rather be online all day? You need people to respond to you because you are unfulfilled and you need something to fill that time and space, very sad...It has nothing to do with peoples gratuitous bigoted comments, but because you have nothing better to do, you try to instigate, best part is, people on this board are getting tired of responding to you, because you have nothing original to bring. You keep going back to the same stuff over and over.  Totally like CNN, NBC, all those networks, turn them on right now, go ahead, I don't even need to be on and I already know....they are talking about Trump, why? because, like you they cant see beyond their own shadow and are incapable of having any deep rhetoric, so they keep repeating themselves, just like you!!!


Clap....clap....clap.....we’ll said!


----------



## Lavey29

I'm sure everything will be just fine on the pitch.


----------



## Grace T.

whatithink said:


> Great to see your kid is getting to play. The reaction to this is pathetic, agree with you on that.
> 
> I know my son regularly plays against boys who are many inches taller and 40+ pounds heavier, and likewise with my daughter. I don't hear any of those parents complaining about their kids having a physical advantage because they were "fortunate" that their kids hit puberty sooner (more so than genetics) but I guess it will eventually even out.
> 
> I have seen a girl, who identified as a boy, play on a U15 boys team and the boys were cool with it, so agree with you that the kids could care less. The parents were surprised at first and then just shrugged and carried on.
> 
> I see many refs to elite level & college, but less to the fact that if a kid gets dropped, then that kid was #18 on the roster and at best marginally elite (hint, if you're #18 on the roster in the eyes of the coach on an elite team, move ...). My view is that if your kid isn't a starter then the coach is looking to replace them. If your kid is a starter, then you have nothing to worry about.


Starting 10. The gkers, regardless of their skill level, unless they are the top 5 kids in region, are also always vulnerable to getting replaced if someone better comes along, regardless of whether they are the starter or substitute. On the girls side the only thing that stops this from happening more often is the goalkeeper shortage. On the us pro side, the salary caps limit things since only so much money is available after the other key roles have been signed.  The gk also makes a ready scapegoat if the team isn’t doing well and the coach wants to deflect responsibility.


----------



## EOTL

Lavey29 said:


> View attachment 10217
> 
> I'm sure everything will be just fine on the pitch.


In addition to about half the U Dub players being kneelers, almost all the Cal and Oregon St players are too. It must be a sad life knowing the bigotry you love so much is losing.


----------



## Lavey29

EOTL said:


> In addition to about half the U Dub players being kneelers, almost all the Cal and Oregon St players are too. It must be a sad life knowing the bigotry you love so much is losing.


I stand for the flag and kneel for the cross along with 74 million others....lol


----------



## dk_b

Lavey29 said:


> I stand for the flag and kneel for the cross along with 74 million others....lol


No non-Christians among those 74 million. Sounds welcoming.


----------



## dad4

Lavey29 said:


> I stand for the flag and kneel for the cross along with 74 million others....lol


If you’re going to brag about the losing score, can it be a soccer score?  Try this:

”Remember that time Crush‘s daughter scored a hat trick against Blues in the Leicester City Cup at Galloway?  That was awesome.  If the ref hadn’t called blown the offside call in the 39th minute, she would have tied it up and they would totally have won in overtime!  Those were the days.  U9 soccer is the best!”

See?  Much more fun.


----------



## Lavey29

dad4 said:


> If you’re going to brag about the losing score, can it be a soccer score?  Try this:
> 
> ”Remember that time Crush‘s daughter scored a hat trick against Blues in the Leicester City Cup at Galloway?  That was awesome.  If the ref hadn’t called blown the offside call in the 39th minute, she would have tied it up and they would totally have won in overtime!  Those were the days.  U9 soccer is the best!”
> 
> See?  Much more fun.


So making fun of someone who is proud of his kid is fun?  That's kindergarten bully bullshit and sure speaks to your character.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> O.k.  Here's my take which is likely to make me unpopular with either side but it means I'm probably on to something.  And I say this as someone with a bit of background in this situation being LGBTQ myself, and having a relative who is T.
> 
> Firstly, sports is never fair.  My son is August birthday and a GK.  He was the tallest in his age group, but when they moved around the age groups he has to compete now against kids with 6 months growth on him.  He's in the 75% of height for males, so not a short keeper by any means, but still that 6 months makes a huge difference.  He also wound up losing a year of development when they changed the years.  Similarly, if there are any girls on your teams with a mix of chromosomes (like the xxy) , or if they just happen to be genetically early bloomers and towered over their teammates when they were 10, or even if they are over 6 ft, there's nothing fair about that either.
> 
> What's "fair" or "unfair" here is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  Any fidgeting of the rules will produce winners and losers, since there are finite places on a team.   It's not "fair" if your DD gets cut from their dream team because somebody who looks like a guy walks in from tryouts and just blows away everyone even the strongest girls.  It's not "fair" either to send the trans kid who has behaved as a girl since they were 8 and is on hormone blockers to compete against 18 year guys.  Start from the position there is no "fairness" here.  Also start from the position that I have yet to see a dude decide he wants to compete in women's sports just to gain a scholarship or trophy (though it also wouldn't surprise me to eventually see one or two).
> 
> For 10 years or so, before the woke knives came out, we had the NCAA standards.  They, IIRC, required an athlete to be on hormones before being allowed to compete with the other sex.  They worked for a long time before politics overwhelmed this issue.
> 
> Knowing that no solution can ever be perfect, and understanding we have to try to take into account the concerns of all participants, I'd think a siding scale is the most appropriate scale.  For youth rec, who cares.  I once had to referee an AYSO game with a kid  who was MTF, 9 years old or so, playing with the girls.  Very sweet kid, somewhat in love with the attention being given, and could not see that child playing with the boys and not getting hurt and/or bullied.  For youth club sports, it's tricky because it's at an age before hormones are advised, but I can see a rule where hormones and/or testosterone blockers are required for some length of time, but the rules should be less stringent since it is a team sport and the contribution of any 1 athlete is limited.  For individual youth sports, because the performance is so dependent on the performance of an athlete a stricter rule is called for.   For college athletics, the rules should be even stricter and require a prolonged period on hormone blockers and estrogen, plus either a transition or an active moment towards transition within the coming months  For Olympic level competition, it wouldn't be unreasonable to require the transition to have occurred.
> 
> None of this is entirely "fair" to anyone.  But it recognizes there are competing concerns on both ends of the spectrum.  Whether or not a transition really makes someone a "real boy" or "real girl" is besides the point here...who cares....it's all about definitional nonsense either....and no a transition does not make you magically into a biological female.  We need to balance compassion on one end of the spectrum with fairness on the other, knowing that "fairness" is impossible to achieve in sports. We were headed in that direction before politics inserted its dirty nose into this issue.


Simple, why didn't your son  identify as a year or two younger and he'd be the tallest GK again.

If birth gender is fluid, why not birth year? After all, isn't it compassionate for the undersized kids being dominated and bullied in their birth year group? Wouldn't it "level the playing field" for those born smaller, weaker, and less  talented? OR think how one could dominate due to physical difference competing one or two years down.

Personally, I'd like to identify as 62yo and start tapping into social security.

Ultimately, who gets to determine the rules and where does it end?


----------



## dad4

Lavey29 said:


> So making fun of someone who is proud of his kid is fun?  That's kindergarten bully bullshit and sure speaks to your character.


I wasn’t making fun of Crush.  He’s just the most vocal of a large number of proud parents here.  

I was making fun of you.  It’s now 3 1/2 months after the election, and you’re still taking over soccer threads to talk about your losing political candidate.


----------



## Lavey29

dad4 said:


> I wasn’t making fun of Crush.  He’s just the most vocal of a large number of proud parents here.
> 
> I was making fun of you.  It’s now 3 1/2 months after the election, and you’re still taking over soccer threads to talk about your losing political candidate.


Well you picked a strange way of posting your opinion.  I was responding to Ewok which was my mistake.  I shouldn't be responding to his nonsense at all.


----------



## watfly

I just throw this out there, but is there, or should there be a distinction between team and individual sports?


----------



## MicPaPa

dad4 said:


> I wasn’t making fun of Crush.  He’s just the most vocal of a large number of proud parents here.
> 
> I was making fun of you.  It’s now 3 1/2 months after the election, and you’re still taking over soccer threads to talk about your losing political candidate.


It's a political thread my friend...did you read the original post? Elections have consequences. And it's you simple minded babies who solely voted because "Orange Man bad and tweets mean things" who own this, and many other, leftist policies. If his candidate had won...this federal mandate thread would not exist. 

You see, true "principled conservatives", and the left, understand that it's actions over personality. 

Rest assured, for the next 4 years I will continue to talk about the loss and the garbage and damage you and your ilk ushered in and own.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Simple, why didn't your son  identify as a year or two younger and he'd be the tallest GK again.
> 
> If birth gender is fluid, why not birth year? After all, isn't it compassionate for the undersized kids being dominated and bullied in their birth year group? Wouldn't it "level the playing field" for those born smaller, weaker, and less  talented? OR think how one could dominate due to physical difference competing one or two years down.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to identify as 62yo and start tapping into social security.
> 
> Ultimately, who gets to determine the rules and where does it end?


You’ve embraced the fact that the rules are all arbitrary.  That’s a start.  Who determines the rules?  You’ve asked the fundamental issue of politics and limiting principles.  To flip it...why should he be punished for being an August birthday and by what right did they take his being the oldest away. 

Again I agree declaring yourself trans doesn’t change your biological gender. But on the other hand we are also talking in most cases about brain structures which in the case of mtf don’t exactly pattern the average male brain.  Beyond that everything else is just definitional issues.


----------



## Lavey29

I'm sure they can come up with a reasonable solution to this so people can live their life as they choose. They have the Special Olympics for athletes with special needs. They have the Para Olympics for athletes with physical disabilities.  I'm sure the LBGT community could get lots of sponsors for the TG Olympics.  Instead of the current She Believes tournament that is going on they could call it "He's Confused" or something similar.


----------



## Grace T.

Lavey29 said:


> I'm sure they can come up with a reasonable solution to this so people can live their life as they choose. They have the Special Olympics for athletes with special needs. They have the Para Olympics for athletes with physical disabilities.  I'm sure the LBGT community could get lots of sponsors for the TG Olympics.  Instead of the current She Believes tournament that is going on they could call it "He's Confused" or something similar.


The issue for teams is there won’t be enough t athletes to form a team on a high school or college campus. If you wanted to tier things I suppose you could run testosterone tests even on the biological females (some of which have testosterone spikes for various biological reasons) and classify them into higher and lower testosterone tiers.


----------



## whatithink

met61 said:


> Simple, why didn't your son  identify as a year or two younger and he'd be the tallest GK again.
> 
> If birth gender is fluid, why not birth year? After all, isn't it compassionate for the undersized kids being dominated and bullied in their birth year group? Wouldn't it "level the playing field" for those born smaller, weaker, and less  talented? OR think how one could dominate due to physical difference competing one or two years down.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to identify as 62yo and start tapping into social security.
> 
> Ultimately, who gets to determine the rules and where does it end?


Ignoring your sarcasm, you do know that the DA allowed boys to be played down and they had the whole relative age thing going on. Apparently (sic) that doesn't/didn't work on the girls side. I would think they will have the same thing on MLS Next, as the goal is to ID MLS players at 17/18, when they have grown, rather than throw away talent when they haven't grown relative to their peers yet.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> If you’re going to brag about the losing score, can it be a soccer score?  Try this:
> 
> ”*Remember that time Crush‘s daughter scored a hat trick against Blues in the Leicester City Cup at Galloway? * That was awesome.  If the ref hadn’t called blown the offside call in the 39th minute, she would have tied it up and they would totally have won in overtime!  Those were the days.  U9 soccer is the best!”
> 
> See?  Much more fun.


Galloway was a horse ranch and had no soccer Dad back in the day.  Games were played out at Birdsall ((Pachanga)) and then another place I cant remember.  My dd was not a hat trick pony either.  She wants the girls on the team to like her and not look like a ball hog so she passes the rock so others can taste the glory of scoring too.  It would have read, "Crush dd gets game winner after assisting on first two goals of the game Leicester Cup finals, 3-2."


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Galloway was a horse ranch and had no soccer Dad back in the day.  Games were played out at Birdsall ((Pachanga)) and then another place I cant remember.  My dd was not a hat trick pony either.  She wants the girls on the team to like her and not look like a ball hog so she passes the rock so others can taste the glory of scoring too.  It would have read, "Crush dd gets game winner after assisting on first two goals of the game Leicester Cup finals, 3-2."


I never saw her play, just heard she's good.

Any luck on the college front, or still waiting?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> I never saw her play, just heard she's good.
> 
> Any luck on the college front, or still waiting?


You're too funny Dad.  All quite on the Western front.  Right now she's just looking to find a soccer match.  Next week it's back on and she can be a teen again.  Has her first hs school game in April.  Looking at three games a week so need to be in shape for tough games through June.   Any games at this point puts a smile on my face because I see everyone happy, especially the girls who have waited so long.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> You’ve embraced the fact that the rules are all arbitrary.  That’s a start.  Who determines the rules?  You’ve asked the fundamental issue of politics and limiting principles.  To flip it...why should he be punished for being an August birthday and by what right did they take his being the oldest away.
> 
> Again I agree declaring yourself trans doesn’t change your biological gender. But on the other hand we are also talking in most cases about brain structures which in the case of mtf don’t exactly pattern the average male brain.  Beyond that everything else is just definitional issues.


Ok sure - arbitrary, subjective, selective, slippery slopes, all of the above and beyond.

Bottom line, all people who suffer from gender dysphoria (and all other DSM-V listed psychiatric disorders) have a right to live as they choose, so long as they do not trample over the rights of others in the process. 

Currently, transgender policies are trampling over the rights of girls / women.


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Ok sure - arbitrary, subjective, selective, slippery slopes, all of the above and beyond.
> 
> Bottom line, all people who suffer from gender dysphoria (and all other DSM-V listed psychiatric disorders) have a right to live as they choose, so long as they do not trample over the rights of others in the process.
> 
> Currently, transgender policies are trampling over the rights of girls / women.


So my sons rights were trampled on when they rejiggered the age guidance?  What about the right of the mtf who is substantially weaker and may even be on hormone blockers...doesn’t that person have a right to play without being trampled on by 18 year old boys at the height of their puberty?  

Rights often collide with each other. The right of a racist to not admit minorities he dislikes to his country club. The right of a men’s club to organize alone without having to deal with women even though it gives them a leg up in business. The right of a Chinese restaurant to hire only Chinese service people because they want it to be authentic. The right of a wedding cake baker to not bake a gay wedding cake. My right to get air and sunlight for my house v your right to build your house higher even though it blocks my view. Your right to go in the freeway as fast as you want v my right to feel safe in my car. Your right to feel more secure against the Rona v my right not to wear a mask that restricts my breathing. 

Certain rights are fundamental. They are mostly set out in the bill of rights. But even speech isnt absolute (fire in the crowded theatre, child porn). There’s always a balancing act. The question is how to balance things. In this case you have 2 rights that need to be balanced:  the right of the biological girls/women to compete on a level playing field v the right of trans people to play. Hell, if it’s all about the level playing field let’s just abolish the gender split in sports and have everyone compete against everyone on a level playing field...may the best person win....works for the federation in starship troopers.


----------



## met61

Grace T. said:


> So my sons rights were trampled on when they rejiggered the age guidance?  What about the right of the mtf who is substantially weaker and may even be on hormone blockers...doesn’t that person have a right to play without being trampled on by 18 year old boys at the height of their puberty?
> 
> Rights often collide with each other. The right of a racist to not admit minorities he dislikes to his country club. The right of a men’s club to organize alone without having to deal with women even though it gives them a leg up in business. The right of a Chinese restaurant to hire only Chinese service people because they want it to be authentic. The right of a wedding cake baker to not bake a gay wedding cake. My right to get air and sunlight for my house v your right to build your house higher even though it blocks my view. Your right to go in the freeway as fast as you want v my right to feel safe in my car. Your right to feel more secure against the Rona v my right not to wear a mask that restricts my breathing.
> 
> Certain rights are fundamental. They are mostly set out in the bill of rights. But even speech isnt absolute (fire in the crowded theatre, child porn). There’s always a balancing act. The question is how to balance things. In this case you have 2 rights that need to be balanced:  the right of the biological girls/women to compete on a level playing field v the right of trans people to play. Hell, if it’s all about the level playing field let’s just abolish the gender split in sports and have everyone compete against everyone on a level playing field...may the best person win....works for the federation in starship troopers.


I'm sure you put a lot into this lengthy response, but to be honest with you, I stopped reading at "racist". Unfortunately, the term has been bastardized by the left and far too often misused and overused. For me, it is a discussion ender. Take care.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Are we arguing the exception or the rule?


----------



## Grace T.

met61 said:


> I'm sure you put a lot into this lengthy response, but to be honest with you, I stopped reading at "racist". Unfortunately, the term has been bastardized by the left and far too often misused and overused. For me, it is a discussion ender. Take care.


Part of the problem with this issue is no one wants to acknowledge the other side has concerns. They just don’t want to hear it. So we get extreme positions like a transgendered person should be allowed to play at any level just by declaring they are female v no one should trample on women/girls rights and if that means someone else doesn’t have a place to play too bad.


----------



## met61

Kicker4Life said:


> Are we arguing the exception or the rule?


Seems like every possible exception, but at "racist" I'm out.


----------



## Kicker4Life

met61 said:


> Seems like every possible exception, but at "racist" I'm out.


No argument from me on that one.  

But I’m talking more on the broader scale of this whole thread.


----------



## EOTL

met61 said:


> Simple, why didn't your son  identify as a year or two younger and he'd be the tallest GK again.
> 
> If birth gender is fluid, why not birth year? After all, isn't it compassionate for the undersized kids being dominated and bullied in their birth year group? Wouldn't it "level the playing field" for those born smaller, weaker, and less  talented? OR think how one could dominate due to physical difference competing one or two years down.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to identify as 62yo and start tapping into social security.
> 
> Ultimately, who gets to determine the rules and where does it end?


The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body.  That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.

You know who doesn’t decide the rules?  You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Part of the problem with this issue is no one wants to acknowledge the other side has concerns. They just don’t want to hear it. So we get extreme positions like a transgendered person should be allowed to play at any level just by declaring they are female v no one should trample on women/girls rights and if that means someone else doesn’t have a place to play too bad.


No place to play? That’s a problem?  I didn’t know we all had a right to a “place to play” D1 sports.

So, if I was not allowed to play intercollegiate sports, my fundamental rights have been violated?

Wow.  I wish I had known that, as an overweight bookish math geek, I was being discriminated against.  I had a constitutional right to play D1 hoops!   All of NCAA history would have been different.  That could have been me, dribbling past Terrence Tao and dunking on Noam Elkies.  Of course, they’d have to lower the rim a couple feet for us.

Or maybe, if you don’t qualify for a particular sports team, just play ultimate frisbee in the quad like everyone else.  No one will ask or care about your birth gender.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No place to play? That’s a problem?  I didn’t know we all had a right to a “place to play” D1 sports.
> 
> So, if I was not allowed to play intercollegiate sports, my fundamental rights have been violated?
> 
> Wow.  I wish I had known that, as an overweight bookish math geek, I was being discriminated against.  I had a constitutional right to play D1 hoops!   All of NCAA history would have been different.  That could have been me, dribbling past Terrence Tao and dunking on Noam Elkies.  Of course, they’d have to lower the rim a couple feet for us.
> 
> Or maybe, if you don’t qualify for a particular sports team, just play ultimate frisbee in the quad like everyone else.  No one will ask or care about your birth gender.


A. We agree then nothing about sports is “fair”. It’s purely from a happenstance at birth that you were born a bookish math geek and Michael Jordan was born with goat potential. Yeah effort and hard work can change some of that and Michael Jordan might not except by accident and effort be Michael Jordan, but you’ll never be Michael Jordan
B. I use the term rights in the natural law not constitutional law sense, because that’s what the poster used when he said his dd rights would be trampled. Where did this “right” come from?   If you prefer a more appropriate term would be “interests”
C. I agree in part.  My criticism of the far woke position is they frame this as a discrimination or constitutional rights perspective. Prior to politics getting involved this wasn’t handled as a legal issue. It was resolved by the ncaa which sought to balance the interests of the various parties concerned.


----------



## MicPaPa

Grace T. said:


> A. We agree then nothing about sports is “fair”. It’s purely from a happenstance at birth that you were born a bookish math geek and Michael Jordan was born with goat potential. Yeah effort and hard work can change some of that and Michael Jordan might not except by accident and effort be Michael Jordan, but you’ll never be Michael Jordan
> B. I use the term rights in the natural law not constitutional law sense, because that’s what the poster used when he said his dd rights would be trampled. Where did this “right” come from?   If you prefer a more appropriate term would be “interests”
> C. I agree in part.  My criticism of the far woke position is they frame this as a discrimination or constitutional rights perspective. Prior to politics getting involved this wasn’t handled as a legal issue. It was resolved by the ncaa which sought to balance the interests of the various parties concerned.


Ding, ding, ding...welcome to our country on woke democrat political BS! Hence, the point of the original post.


----------



## met61

EOTL said:


> The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body.  That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.
> 
> You know who doesn’t decide the rules?  You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.


Let me make it simple for you dummy; it is the leftist db's elected by you and your merry band of morons that mandate the policies forcing rule changes by the governing bodies.


----------



## dad4

EOTL said:


> The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body.  That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.
> 
> You know who doesn’t decide the rules?  You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.


You left out the part where, if the gay lobby doesn't like your rules, they sue you and drag your name through the mud.

For major organizations, this works.  Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top.   From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.

But don’t be surprised when people react against it.    Not many people look to the IOC or NCAA for their moral compass.  People have a basic notion of fair play, and it doesn’t include a 6’6” 240 pound man shoving college girls out of the way to get a rebound.


----------



## Imtired

dad4 said:


> You left out the part where, if the gay lobby doesn't like your rules, they sue you and drag your name through the mud.
> 
> For major organizations, this works.  Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top.   From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.
> 
> But don’t be surprised when people react against it.    Not many people look to the IOC or NCAA for their moral compass.  People have a basic notion of fair play, and it doesn’t include a 6’6” 240 pound man shoving college girls out of the way to get a rebound.


Disclaimer:  I am what would be considered "the left".   I absolutely believe in protections and equality for LGBTQ, I believe (and have always believed) that gays should be allowed to marry.  All of that being said to pretend that there isn't a biological difference between transwomen and biological women is ridiculous.  There is an obvious advantage if you were born a male, with all the extra muscle mass, testosterone, etc. and then convert to a female.  How long this difference last is the material point.  To scream "bigot!!!" when people simply try to bring up this fact is getting us nowhere.  Same goes for those who state transwomen should _never_ be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Let's look at the science.  How long after a male is transitioned to a female until the hormones and muscle become more equal?  Or is the biological advantage a transwoman has over a biological permanent?

To not discuss this issue at all is not going to solve anything.  There IS a difference between biological females and trans females--there just is--how long does that difference last is the question.  That's what needs to be discussed.

Complex issue: Protect women's sports while welcoming trans athletes (usatoday.com)


----------



## dad4

Imtired said:


> Disclaimer:  I am what would be considered "the left".   I absolutely believe in protections and equality for LGBTQ, I believe (and have always believed) that gays should be allowed to marry.  All of that being said to pretend that there isn't a biological difference between transwomen and biological women is ridiculous.  There is an obvious advantage if you were born a male, with all the extra muscle mass, testosterone, etc. and then convert to a female.  How long this difference last is the material point.  To scream "bigot!!!" when people simply try to bring up this fact is getting us nowhere.  Same goes for those who state transwomen should _never_ be allowed to compete in women's sports.
> 
> Let's look at the science.  How long after a male is transitioned to a female until the hormones and muscle become more equal?  Or is the biological advantage a transwoman has over a biological permanent?
> 
> To not discuss this issue at all is not going to solve anything.  There IS a difference between biological females and trans females--there just is--how long does that difference last is the question.  That's what needs to be discussed.
> 
> Complex issue: Protect women's sports while welcoming trans athletes (usatoday.com)


Is there any science that hormone therapy *ever* actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?

if so, link please.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Is there any science that hormone therapy *ever* actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?
> 
> if so, link please.


Which female?  The high performing possibly high testosterone female Olympic athlete or your run of the mill average college female?  Why is the test reduce performance to that of a female and not reduces performance to below that of a male (so the athlete can no longer compete with other biological males)? Does it matter if it’s hormone therapy or actual transition which eliminates the main source of testosterone?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

dad4 said:


> For major organizations, this works.  Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top.   From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.


Perspective is good.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Is there any science that hormone therapy *ever* actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?
> 
> if so, link please.


Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.


----------



## kickingandscreaming

Grace T. said:


> Part of the problem with this issue is no one wants to acknowledge the other side has concerns. They just don’t want to hear it. So we get extreme positions like a transgendered person should be allowed to play at any level just by declaring they are female v no one should trample on women/girls rights and if that means someone else doesn’t have a place to play too bad.


I am in agreement with you up until "if that means someone else doesn’t have a place". Are we seeing transgendered athletes being denied the opportunity to play in boys/mens sports?


----------



## Grace T.

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am in agreement with you up until "if that means someone else doesn’t have a place". Are we seeing transgendered athletes being denied the opportunity to play in boys/mens sports?


The complication here is the baseline. Caitlyn Jenner could almost certainly safely compete with the men’s sports. If my elder brother (a borderline college athlete) has transitioned in his prime he almost certainly couldn’t compete due to the loss of muscle mass. If dad 4 (from the description) or the mtf child I described were to transition in their prime doubt it’s safe. The messy part here is some ts are more passable than others...some look like biological women (my coz in her youth couldn’t be distinguished) and others don’t. It’s one aspect the t community doesn’t like to discuss.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.


The military studies quantify how much.

A significant advantage remains after 2 years.  If it were a pill, it would be banned.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The military studies quantify how much.
> 
> A significant advantage remains after 2 years.  If it were a pill, it would be banned.


Yeah but there’s also a substantial reduction relative to the men, which is the heart of the problem that there’s this third category of people that don’t fit anywhere. I suppose if we were really wanting to be “fair” one thing you could do is test everyone for testosterone levels.  Even this though is imperfect: a. Some biological women would be caught in this with higher testosterone and be required to play in the middle tier, b. Feminists would hate that it would be a blatant admission of the physical/athletic inferiority of women to be relegated for the most part to the lowest tier, c. Some significant advantages (such as rib cage size and bone structure) would still be present in the ts so it’s not perfect and d. When it comes to d1 or higher athletics the women we are dealing with aren’t the norm (or more pejoratively “freaks”) relative to other women so it’s a significant burden to take on to protect this already privilege group.  It would however have some benefits that ftm wouldn’t be required to shift until testosterone levels reach certain quantifiable levels.  Still a whole lot of trouble for a handful of people (ts, female d1 athletes and higher) who are not the norm and special in and of themselves.


----------



## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Yeah but there’s also a substantial reduction relative to the men, which is the heart of the problem that there’s this third category of people that don’t fit anywhere. I suppose if we were really wanting to be “fair” one thing you could do is test everyone for testosterone levels.  Even this though is imperfect: a. Some biological women would be caught in this with higher testosterone and be required to play in the middle tier, b. Feminists would hate that it would be a blatant admission of the physical/athletic inferiority of women to be relegated for the most part to the lowest tier, c. Some significant advantages (such as rib cage size and bone structure) would still be present in the ts so it’s not perfect and d. When it comes to d1 or higher athletics the women we are dealing with aren’t the norm (or more pejoratively “freaks”) relative to other women so it’s a significant burden to take on to protect this already privilege group.  It would however have some benefits that ftm wouldn’t be required to shift until testosterone levels reach certain quantifiable levels.  Still a whole lot of trouble for a handful of people (ts, female d1 athletes and higher) who are not the norm and special in and of themselves.


You are asking for medicine which does not exist.  There is no treatment which lowers male athletic performance to a point comparable to female athletic performance.  Even if one did exist, I have serious doubts about using sports as a lever to push people into medical treatment.

If there were a pill that raised an average woman athlete’s performance to the level of an average mtf athlete’s performance, would it be legal for use in competition?  Such a pill would be banned as a performance enhancing drug.


----------



## EOTL

met61 said:


> Ok sure - arbitrary, subjective, selective, slippery slopes, all of the above and beyond.
> 
> Bottom line, all people who suffer from gender dysphoria (and all other DSM-V listed psychiatric disorders) have a right to live as they choose, so long as they do not trample over the rights of others in the process.
> 
> Currently, transgender policies are trampling over the rights of girls / women.


Such a clueless sense of entitlement that you claim you have a “right” to force a sports governing body to exclude people from eligibility. Transgender people have every right to participate in a sport in which the governing body has said they are eligible.  Your little princess also has that same “right” to participate. What you want - to force sports governing bodies to exclude athletes who scare you from participating in a sport that aligns with their gender identity - is not a right at all. 

The idea that transgender people are trampling over the rights of those who aren’t is ludicrous and backwards.  Rational people realize how unimportant that kiddie soccer game with the transgender player on the other team was. How unimportant the HS race of slow people in CT was. Most sports governing bodies realize how unimportant these things are compared to the important goal of eliminating the gender dysphoria that people like you exacerbate in transgender individuals with constant whining about how girls sports is being “eviscerated” by policies that have been around for a decade or more in many instances, and with no measurable negative impact on girls or womens sports. In the end, the “fairness” you demand just isn’t important because kiddie sports aren’t important compared to the societal benefit of allowing transgender athletic participation. It’s amazing how the transphobic crowd says that youth sports is all about building character, self-esteem and fitness, not wins and losses, right up until a transgender athlete participates.  Then all those things are suddenly not important at all compared to winning a youth soccer game or race, so f**k those transgender kids.

If you want fairness, start treating transgender people with dignity and respect, instead of becoming hysterical when some bigot dog whistles that girls and women’s sports is being eviscerated by an executive order that does nothing  to require or regulate transgender participation in sports.


----------



## met61

EOTL said:


> Such a clueless sense of entitlement that you claim you have a “right” to force a sports governing body to exclude people from eligibility. Transgender people have every right to participate in a sport in which the governing body has said they are eligible.  Your little princess also has that same “right” to participate. What you want - to force sports governing bodies to exclude athletes who scare you from participating in a sport that aligns with their gender identity - is not a right at all.
> 
> The idea that transgender people are trampling over the rights of those who aren’t is ludicrous and backwards.  Rational people realize how unimportant that kiddie soccer game with the transgender player on the other team was. How unimportant the HS race of slow people in CT was. Most sports governing bodies realize how unimportant these things are compared to the important goal of eliminating the gender dysphoria that people like you exacerbate in transgender individuals with constant whining about how girls sports is being “eviscerated” by policies that have been around for a decade or more in many instances, and with no measurable negative impact on girls or womens sports. In the end, the “fairness” you demand just isn’t important because kiddie sports aren’t important compared to the societal benefit of allowing transgender athletic participation. It’s amazing how the transphobic crowd says that youth sports is all about building character, self-esteem and fitness, not wins and losses, right up until a transgender athlete participates.  Then all those things are suddenly not important at all compared to winning a youth soccer game or race, so f**k those transgender kids.
> 
> If you want fairness, start treating transgender people with dignity and respect, instead of becoming hysterical when some bigot dog whistles that girls and women’s sports is being eviscerated by an executive order that does nothing  to require or regulate transgender participation in sports.


I really (not really) feel bad that you produce such a high word count of garbage that virtually no one will read.


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## met61

With that said, after reading *most* points of view, I've concluded it's settled science and I'm going with;  Let it be, God doesn't make mistakes.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You are asking for medicine which does not exist.  There is no treatment which lowers male athletic performance to a point comparable to female athletic performance.  Even if one did exist, I have serious doubts about using sports as a lever to push people into medical treatment.
> 
> If there were a pill that raised an average woman athlete’s performance to the level of an average mtf athlete’s performance, would it be legal for use in competition?  Such a pill would be banned as a performance enhancing drug.


No I’m not. I’m saying the condition reduces their ability to compete against men, but doesn’t reduce it sufficiently to the level of the average (or even above average) woman so there are no good choices for these people (other than “too bad, so sad” you made your choice, or the creation of a middle tier into which beta males could opt in and some high performing females would be forced in). So what other than “too bad so sad” is to be done.  I also note “too bad so sad” has the opposite effect that your dds would also have to compete against ftm who are taking testosterone, a performance enhancing drug.


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## Grace T.

met61 said:


> With that said, after reading *most* points of view, I've concluded I'm going with;  Let it be, God doesn't make mistakes.


Yes He does.  Otherwise dad4 and I wouldn’t exist. J/k.  But seriously: downs?...yeah I know....it’s complicated.


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## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> No I’m not. I’m saying the condition reduces their ability to compete against men, but doesn’t reduce it sufficiently to the level of the average (or even above average) woman so there are no good choices for these people (other than “too bad, so sad” you made your choice, or the creation of a middle tier into which beta males could opt in and some high performing females would be forced in). So what other than “too bad so sad” is to be done.  I also note “too bad so sad” has the opposite effect that your dds would also have to compete against ftm who are taking testosterone, a performance enhancing drug.


With respect to the ftm problem the impression I get from some (not saying you) is that these people are freaks and have made their own choices so if they can’t compete too bad so sad.  The same people who object to their dds playing a caitlyn Jenner type would probably object to their dds playing with a mtf with full beard, testosterone supplements and an artificial unit.  Sorry...that’s my line...”just go away” isn’t an acceptable outcome for me particularly when we are dealing with high performing athletes who are already privileged.


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## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> With respect to the ftm problem the impression I get from some (not saying you) is that these people are freaks and have made their own choices so if they can’t compete too bad so sad.  The same people who object to their dds playing a caitlyn Jenner type would probably object to their dds playing with a mtf with full beard, testosterone supplements and an artificial unit.  Sorry...that’s my line...”just go away” isn’t an acceptable outcome for me particularly when we are dealing with high performing athletes who are already privileged.


correction ftm


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## met61

Grace T. said:


> Yes He does.  Otherwise dad4 and I wouldn’t exist. J/k.  But seriously: downs?...yeah I know....it’s complicated.


No judgement here, we're all sinners...I love and pray for you. 

Again, no He doesn't. Actually, it's not very complicated, it's designed to be a struggle, which includes free will...not a utopia, that will come in the afterlife through faith and belief.


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## Grace T.

met61 said:


> No judgement here, we're all sinners...I love and pray for you.
> 
> Again, no He doesn't. Actually, it's not very complicated, it's designed to be a struggle, which includes free will...not a utopia, that will come in the afterlife through faith and belief.


Ditto and as a person of faith myself, I appreciate this perspective.

I've always myself regarded it more as a series of challenges and test through which we improve ourselves, the most basic test of which is fear, but another being compassion, and yet another being self-awareness.  I agree utopia is elusive (which has always been a failing of both the extreme right and left).  Where the challenge is, and has always been, is to where that free will can/should lead us.


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## gotothebushes

Great watch for parents and players:


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> No I’m not. I’m saying the condition reduces their ability to compete against men, but doesn’t reduce it sufficiently to the level of the average (or even above average) woman so there are no good choices for these people (other than “too bad, so sad” you made your choice, or the creation of a middle tier into which beta males could opt in and some high performing females would be forced in). So what other than “too bad so sad” is to be done.  I also note “too bad so sad” has the opposite effect that your dds would also have to compete against ftm who are taking testosterone, a performance enhancing drug.


At least we agree about what is possible with medicine.  Trans athletes, in either direction, end up in the middle.  Athletically, they are neither men nor women.  

A middle tier would be rejected by all sides.  Who would actually want to be in it?   The exception would be if you are talking about creating more non-varsity sports opportunities, which is a good idea in its own right.

Better to just refer to the top group as “open” or “unrestricted”.  Stop calling it men’s sports.  Have a women’s division and an everyone division.  Mtf athletes and ftm on testosterone would be in the everyone group, as would I.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> At least we agree about what is possible with medicine.  Trans athletes, in either direction, end up in the middle.  Athletically, they are neither men nor women.
> 
> A middle tier would be rejected by all sides.  Who would actually want to be in it?   The exception would be if you are talking about creating more non-varsity sports opportunities, which is a good idea in its own right.
> 
> Better to just refer to the top group as “open” or “unrestricted”.  Stop calling it men’s sports.  Have a women’s division and an everyone division.  Mtf athletes and ftm on testosterone would be in the everyone group, as would I.


Agree until the last sentence.  1. There are some biological women who are due to chromosomal or hormonal treatment would not be in the norm....test everyone before they apply to the bottom tier?, 2. it's an "unfair" treatment of the ftm who if the test is biology....well they are biological females, leading to your rule being in place just because "ts" are "ts"....it's declaring one unique group a loser in this, for the sake of preserving the win for another unique and privileged group (high performing d1 athletes and higher) just because you feel like privileging that group (there's no logical rhyme nor reason for forcing the ftms up if your rule is biology and you refuse to test the biological women).  I also note 3. this undermines the entire tenants of 20th century feminism by acknowledging females are somehow lesser.


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## Grace T.

Grace T. said:


> Agree until the last sentence.  1. There are some biological women who are due to chromosomal or hormonal treatment would not be in the norm....test everyone before they apply to the bottom tier?, 2. it's an "unfair" treatment of the ftm who if the test is biology....well they are biological females, leading to your rule being in place just because "ts" are "ts"....it's declaring one unique group a loser in this, for the sake of preserving the win for another unique and privileged group (high performing d1 athletes and higher) just because you feel like privileging that group (there's no logical rhyme nor reason for forcing the ftms up if your rule is biology and you refuse to test the biological women).  I also note 3. this undermines the entire tenants of 20th century feminism by acknowledging females are somehow lesser.


p.s. if you buy into this notion as well it should put to rest the entire notion of pay parity for women's sports even on the national team level....setting aside the market and they both represent the colors equally, they should never be paid the same because women's sports are lesser to the everyone competes, and therefore they should be treated as such (both in pay and resources).  If a woman can play up in the everyone's division, they can access there the equal pay and resources.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Agree until the last sentence.  1. There are some biological women who are due to chromosomal or hormonal treatment would not be in the norm....test everyone before they apply to the bottom tier?, 2. it's an "unfair" treatment of the ftm who if the test is biology....well they are biological females, leading to your rule being in place just because "ts" are "ts"....it's declaring one unique group a loser in this, for the sake of preserving the win for another unique and privileged group (high performing d1 athletes and higher) just because you feel like privileging that group (there's no logical rhyme nor reason for forcing the ftms up if your rule is biology and you refuse to test the biological women).  I also note 3. this *undermines the entire tenants of 20th century feminism by acknowledging females are somehow lesser.*


On average, in terms of speed or upper body strength, women _are_ lesser.  Just as, in terms of heart health, men are lesser.  Take a quick look at track and field records or actuarial tables if you doubt either comparison.

You are defending a counterfactual equality claim in an irrelevant arena.  Women, on average, are not the athletic equals of men.   Just the same as men and women are not equal in height or longevity.  Of these, only longevity means much.

Why tie yourself to a claim that does not matter and is so easily disproven?


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> On average, in terms of speed or upper body strength, women _are_ lesser.  Just as, in terms of heart health, men are lesser.  Take a quick look at track and field records or actuarial tables if you doubt either comparison.
> 
> You are defending a counterfactual equality claim in an irrelevant arena.  Women, on average, are not the athletic equals of men.   Just the same as men and women are not equal in height or longevity.  Of these, only longevity means much.
> 
> Why tie yourself to a claim that does not matter and is so easily disproven?


Well, because the entire justification for equal pay and resources for equal sports has been that they are not lesser, just different.  You've undermined the entire foundation of title Ix and the USWNT quest for equal pay.

Also your line lacks a coherent rational.  "Biology" would be one...but that means ftms should be allowed to compete against the dds if they so choose.  Testosterone levels are another, but that means some dd should not be allowed to compete in the lesser division either.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> Well, because the entire justification for equal pay and resources for equal sports has been that they are not lesser, just different.  You've undermined the entire foundation of title Ix and the USWNT quest for equal pay.
> 
> Also your line lacks a coherent rational.  "Biology" would be one...but that means ftms should be allowed to compete against the dds if they so choose.  Testosterone levels are another, but that means some dd should not be allowed to compete in the lesser division either.


If the USWNT claim to equal pay requires Alex Morgan to be able to beat Christian Pulisic in direct competition, then it’s time to give up.  That standard will never be met.

Women’s sports are valid in their own right, for their own reasons.  It has nothing to do with whether women are athletically competitive with men.

The answer to your ftm question is that ftm athletes should be subject to the same anti-doping rules as everyone else.  A ftm athlete who uses testosterone does not qualify, because they are taking a performance enhancing drug.   A ftm athlete who does not use performance enhancing drugs should absolutely be allowed to compete as a woman if they so choose.


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## EOTL

met61 said:


> With that said, after reading *most* points of view, I've concluded it's settled science and I'm going with;  Let it be, God doesn't make mistakes.


Where exactly in your god book does it say that sports governing bodies may not allow transgender athletes to participate in sports? But if god doesn’t make mistakes, awesome, there must be no mistake with sports governing bodies letting trans athletes participate, just as they’ve been doing for more than a decade. Let it be, as you say


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## EOTL

met61 said:


> I really (not really) feel bad that you produce such a high word count of garbage that virtually no one will read.


I get that magats are incapable of paying attention to anything more than a Newsmax sound bite.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> If the USWNT claim to equal pay requires Alex Morgan to be able to beat Christian Pulisic in direct competition, then it’s time to give up.  That standard will never be met.
> 
> Women’s sports are valid in their own right, for their own reasons.  It has nothing to do with whether women are athletically competitive with men.
> 
> The answer to your ftm question is that ftm athletes should be subject to the same anti-doping rules as everyone else.  A ftm athlete who uses testosterone does not qualify, because they are taking a performance enhancing drug.   A ftm athlete who does not use performance enhancing drugs should absolutely be allowed to compete as a woman if they so choose.


Yeah, but then the mtf is being deprived of that naturally occurring performance enhancing drug, particularly after full transition, which means there's a hole there they don't fit in under the testosterone test.   

"Women's sports are valid in their own right"....that's part of the problem....why?  If they are lesser, why are they equally valid?

You're bending over backwards to try and have it both ways.


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## dad4

EOTL said:


> Where exactly in your god book does it say that sports governing bodies may not allow transgender athletes to participate in sports? But if god doesn’t make mistakes, awesome, there must be no mistake with sports governing bodies letting trans athletes participate, just as they’ve been doing for more than a decade. Let it be, as you say


No one is talking about banning trans athletes from participation.

The question is, given that trans athletes can participate, which division do they belong in?


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No one is talking about banning trans athletes from participation.
> 
> The question is, given that trans athletes can participate, which division do they belong in?


It's not just a which question but also a when question which complicates things and for what level.  The temporal answer from when a switch permitted ranges from everywhere from "when they declare" to "after treatement" to "at a certain testosterone level" to "after transition" to "never".  It's why this isn't an easy question since the answer may be different from rec to Olympic level competition.


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## EOTL

dad4 said:


> No one is talking about banning trans athletes from participation.
> 
> The question is, given that trans athletes can participate, which division do they belong in?


They belong in the division the sports governing body puts them in, unless the sports governing body unlawfully discriminates against a protected class. And although snowflake magat whiners complain that women are “discriminated against” when transgender athletes are allowed to participate, that is simply not the case. They are provided the exact same opportunity to participate in the league as the transgender athletes. They have no fundamental, or constitutional, “right” to win a race or sporting event.

People seem to completely ignore that the rules allowing transgender participation have not been driven by laws forcing participation but, rather, by 
private entities making their own rules, including rules regarding who gets to participate. These magats claim they want businesses to be able to do whatever the f**k they want, but it it turns out they only mean that so long as it aligns with what the magats want. Maybe these magats should create their own bigot league to compete with CIF, or ECNL, or the NCAA.


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## Imtired

dad4 said:


> Is there any science that hormone therapy *ever* actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?
> 
> if so, link please.


I don’t know, that’s why I mention this needs to be looked at.  I did read an article that mentioned this exact subject and I thought I read that after 2 years the differences in testosterone levels were minuscule.  But what does that mean?  Does that make any difference in muscle mass 2 years later?  I have no idea.


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## dad4

Imtired said:


> I don’t know, that’s why I mention this needs to be looked at.  I did read an article that mentioned this exact subject and I thought I read that after 2 years the differences in testosterone levels were minuscule.  But what does that mean?  Does that make any difference in muscle mass 2 years later?  I have no idea.


Study on the 2 years later question:

Sit ups and push ups mostly equalled out.

1.5 mile times still had a 12% gap, even after 2 years of HT.   That works out to winning a 6 lap race by about 3/4 of a lap.

So, if your sport includes a lot of running, 2 years is not enough.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=[URL]https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20201216/transgender-women-outpace-cisgender-women-in-athletic-tests-after-1-year-on-hormones&ved=2ahUKEwizyazDtZDvAhUqnOAKHa8IBKk4FBAWMAJ6BAgJEAI&usg=AOvVaw0jccD2Srw7U-s65v5vCqYY[/URL]


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Study on the 2 years later question:
> 
> Sit ups and push ups mostly equalled out.
> 
> 1.5 mile times still had a 12% gap, even after 2 years of HT.   That works out to winning a 6 lap race by about 3/4 of a lap.
> 
> So, if your sport includes a lot of running, 2 years is not enough.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=[URL]https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20201216/transgender-women-outpace-cisgender-women-in-athletic-tests-after-1-year-on-hormones&ved=2ahUKEwizyazDtZDvAhUqnOAKHa8IBKk4FBAWMAJ6BAgJEAI&usg=AOvVaw0jccD2Srw7U-s65v5vCqYY[/URL]


1. The study though seems to focus on transgenders in both directions prior to SRS so it doesn't tell us anything about the effects of SRS which (in the case of mtf would radically alter the testosterone count)
2. The study also shows that the performance of mtf did in fact decline...which means putting them in with the cis men is also not a good option.
3. The study also mentioned some hyperandrogenism in certain cis females.  Apparently, on higher level track and field events (presumably the Olympics?) women are required to maintain a certain testosterone level.  A consistent rule, if we are using the testosterone test to exclude either mtf or ftm athletes from the lower division of competition tier, would be to test and exclude these women as well.  Apparently, it is implied (but not stated) that sporting events have limited such testing to higher level track events due to the running issue you point out.  If it means any running event, logic would dictate extending the tests to any other sports where we care about such exclusions and applying the testosterone test across the board.


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## met61

met61 said:


> With that said, after reading *most* points of view, I've concluded it's settled science and I'm going with;  Let it be, God doesn't make mistakes.


Also, what she said.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366487434477854721


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## Grace T.

met61 said:


> Also, what she said.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366487434477854721


The bathroom issue posses the same problem.  If you think the test should be identity, then yes mtf that are just starting transition will be in the bathrooms with your dds.  If you think the test should be biological, that means ftms (with full beards, testosterone, and male body parts) will use the bathroom with your dds.  Given there are only 2 bathrooms, there are no perfect choices here either.  Just go away and don't use the public bathroom is not an acceptable outcome. Short of a massive building campaign requiring places of business to have now 3 bathrooms, I don't see how this goes away, so the question is not where we draw the line, but when in the transition do we draw the line (e.g., after SRS, after hormone treatment, after declaration).


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