# Feedback on refs from league games



## SocalSoccerMom (Sep 26, 2016)

If the assignor sends refs who are clearly too young and inexperience to some of the higher level games, is there a place you can provide feedback?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 26, 2016)

SocalSoccerMom said:


> If the assignor sends refs who are clearly too young and inexperience to some of the higher level games, is there a place you can provide feedback?


Your coach can, and should know how.


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## espola (Sep 26, 2016)

SocalSoccerMom said:


> If the assignor sends refs who are clearly too young and inexperience to some of the higher level games, is there a place you can provide feedback?


From my days as a team manager in Presidio League, I recall a block on the bottom of the game report form to rate referees.  I usually put "Good" or something like that, sometimes "Not adequate for this level" (we were in Presidio Premier at the time), and once added a wise-ass comment "Please add this to the pile of complaints you must have gotten from other clubs".


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## SocalSoccerMom (Sep 26, 2016)

I do recall seeing something back then with Presidio.  This was for SCDSL game.  There have to be better requirements to be certified than taking some online courses and one day training sessions.  If there is a shortage, why not send 2 refs that are more experienced than 2 ARs who barely understand the game and spend most of their time watching vs reffing.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 26, 2016)

For Presidio/SDDA, there is a separate comment section that referees and team administrators can comment specifically on the officiating. The first page is the match reporting system. Comments there are visible to all who can access the page (I have been reserving this section for praising good sideline and player behavior). The second page is the referee assessment page. I'm pretty sure this is visible only to certain league/assocation administrators, but I'm not sure:


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## Surfref (Sep 26, 2016)

SocalSoccerMom said:


> I do recall seeing something back then with Presidio.  This was for SCDSL game.  There have to be better requirements to be certified than taking some online courses and one day training sessions.  If there is a shortage, why not send 2 refs that are more experienced than 2 ARs who barely understand the game and spend most of their time watching vs reffing.


SCDSL does have an avenue to rate the referees on their games.  The coach or manager can rate referee.

I had a G99 coach this past weekend yell at me about how much he thought I sucked.  His team lost by 2 goals.  What he didn't know is that I was assessed on that game by a National Assessor and former Grade 3 referee.  Got a good assessment with some constructive feedback and a couple things to work on.  I just ignored the coach.

For a Grade 8 (what the majority of refs are) to maintain their certification they must, complete ~20 online training modules and attend five training sessions a year.  Most Grade 8 refs that I know attend 8-10 training sessions a year.  For a Grade 6 (State, higher level) the referee needs to complete ~20 higher level online courses,  complete 8 training sessions, attend 5 Referee Profofessional Development training sessions, pass two assessments on 90 minute games, and pass a fitness test that includs ten 40-meter sprints and a 2 1/2 mile run.

I do think that Grade 7 refs should have to run the fitness and have at least 1 assessment a year.  Adult Grade 8 refs should have one CR assessment within their first two years on a U12 game to be able to move up and start doing U15 and below games.  Pass an U16 assessment to be able to work U16 and above.    Grade 8 should be required to pass an assessment every two years.  Emeritus refs should have to pass an assessment yearly on the highest age level they want to work. That would never happen because there are not enough assessor and there would be too much push back from the older and slower Emeritus refs.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> SCDSL does have an avenue to rate the referees on their games.  The coach or manager can rate referee.
> 
> I had a G99 coach this past weekend yell at me about how much he thought I sucked.  His team lost by 2 goals.  What he didn't know is that I was assessed on that game by a National Assessor and former Grade 3 referee.  Got a good assessment with some constructive feedback and a couple things to work on.  I just ignored the coach.
> 
> ...


One has to wonder how useful these gradings by coaches could possibly be based on the ignorant comments that come from them.


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## timbuck (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> One has to wonder how useful these gradings by coaches could possibly be based on the ignorant comments that come from them.


I'd love to see the comments for the winning and losing teams to see how different they are.
My team had a ref that called a ton of fouls this past weekend.  We were down 2-1 and I was livid.  Thought the refs were horrible.  Then we came back on won 3-2 and I think they did a fine job.


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## Surfref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> One has to wonder how useful these gradings by coaches could possibly be based on the ignorant comments that come from them.


Baldref and I worked together this past Saturday.  One coach did not shut up the entire time.  After the first goal he was all over the ref crew.  I had a firm talk with him and when he still did not shut up Baldref set some firm ground rules for him.  That basically ended the yelling at us except for a couple very brief comments.  He continued to loudly berate and joystick his players.  He lost and was not very happy with us, so I am sure if he rates Baldref it will be negative even though he did a good job in the center.  Sometimes I wish we could rate the coaches, but then that would basically take away from our neutral and no bias position.


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## GunninGopher (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> One has to wonder how useful these gradings by coaches could possibly be based on the ignorant comments that come from them.


I agree that the responses would be biased in most cases. It would probably say as much about the coach as it did about the referee.

That being said, I think at about half of the coaches, about half the time, are just chirping during games to try to sway the referees and maybe provide cover for their teams (and by extension their own) perceived failure. I was an AR on a Flight 1 BU12 game last weekend, and about 1/2 way into the first half, a coach screamed to the CR, after a foul call, "That's 2 for them and none for us" as if one team being called more for fouls is an indication of poor or biased officiating. I don't think he was that ignorant, just trying to influence future calls.

Thankfully many realize that continuing to dwell on perceived incorrect calls has a detrimental effect on their players and families.



timbuck said:


> My team had a ref that called a ton of fouls this past weekend. We were down 2-1 and I was livid. Thought the refs were horrible. Then we came back on won 3-2 and I think they did a fine job.


Hilarious.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Baldref and I worked together this past Saturday.  One coach did not shut up the entire time.  After the first goal he was all over the ref crew.  I had a firm talk with him and when he still did not shut up Baldref set some firm ground rules for him.  That basically ended the yelling at us except for a couple very brief comments.  He continued to loudly berate and joystick his players.  He lost and was not very happy with us, so I am sure if he rates Baldref it will be negative even though he did a good job in the center.  Sometimes I wish we could rate the coaches, but then that would basically take away from our neutral and no bias position.


i choked on my whistle when I swallowed it. 
i certainly notice the scdsl coaches don't really rag a lot on the refs. the guy i worked with on sunday butchered the two games he did (for obvious reasons) and the coaches obviously weren't happy with him, but i think the league being tougher on coaches getting tossed keeps them from doing much bitching, for fear of reprisal....


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## Surfref (Sep 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> i choked on my whistle when I swallowed it.
> i certainly notice the scdsl coaches don't really rag a lot on the refs. the guy i worked with on sunday butchered the two games he did (for obvious reasons) and the coaches obviously weren't happy with him, but i think the league being tougher on coaches getting tossed keeps them from doing much bitching, for fear of reprisal....


That game with the CR that you are referencing I watched while talking to friends in the stands that you were an AR made me embarrassed to be a referee especially his handling call that negated a goal in that pack of players at the goal line.  I could not believe that he made that call from 40 yards away with at least 10 players between him and the ball blocking his view.  He should be on the small fields (U10 and below) only.  That was dumb of him to ask me at halftime if I saw the handling foul that negated the goal.  What did he think I was going to say that it was a good call.  Sometimes honest feedback hurts.

I do agree with you that most SCDSL coaches don't yell at the refs as much.  If I am going to get yelled at, it is from a Presidio coach.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> That game with the CR that you are referencing I watched while talking to friends in the stands that you were an AR made me embarrassed to be a referee especially his handling call that negated a goal in that pack of players at the goal line.  I could not believe that he made that call from 40 yards away with at least 10 players between him and the ball blocking his view.  He should be on the small fields (U10 and below) only.  That was dumb of him to ask me at halftime if I saw the handling foul that negated the goal.  What did he think I was going to say that it was a good call.  Sometimes honest feedback hurts.
> 
> I do agree with you that most SCDSL coaches don't yell at the refs as much.  If I am going to get yelled at, it is from a Presidio coach.


concur. he is an embarrassment. it was tough to watch.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> That game with the CR that you are referencing I watched while talking to friends in the stands that you were an AR made me embarrassed to be a referee especially his handling call that negated a goal in that pack of players at the goal line.  I could not believe that he made that call from 40 yards away with at least 10 players between him and the ball blocking his view.  He should be on the small fields (U10 and below) only.  That was dumb of him to ask me at halftime if I saw the handling foul that negated the goal.  What did he think I was going to say that it was a good call.  Sometimes honest feedback hurts.
> 
> I do agree with you that most SCDSL coaches don't yell at the refs as much.  If I am going to get yelled at, it is from a Presidio coach.


I think having a good angle is more important than closeness to play.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> concur. he is an embarrassment. it was tough to watch.


Since you were part of the officiating team, what did you do about it during, and after the game?


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## Surfref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I think having a good angle is more important than closeness to play.



Trust me, that guy did not have any angle.  He was 40 yards straight up field with at least 10 players between him and the call.


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## Surfref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Since you were part of the officiating team, what did you do about it during, and after the game?


They were talking about it when I walked up.  When I got there to grab my gear, the Grade 15 was telling him he needed to get closer.  The Grade 15 was sitting just to the west behind the goal waiting to do the next game and had the best view of anyone.  That was when the CR ask me if I saw it.  He said, "I think I saw it touch a players arm, but I was not that close."  I did not even hear the whistle.  I let the Grade 15 and Baldref continue their feedback to him.  The CR got the feedback he needed.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Since you were part of the officiating team, what did you do about it during, and after the game?


i didn't do anything. i couldn't change his physicality. i tried my best to assist him, as i assist every other referee i work with, but i could not go out on the field and physically move him.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> i didn't do anything. i couldn't change his physicality. i tried my best to assist him, as i assist every other referee i work with, but i could not go out on the field and physically move him.


If that was the extent of his problems I would have to say it was a very minor problem.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> They were talking about it when I walked up.  When I got there to grab my gear, the Grade 15 was telling him he needed to get closer.  The Grade 15 was sitting just to the west behind the goal waiting to do the next game and had the best view of anyone.  That was when the CR ask me if I saw it.  He said, "I think I saw it touch a players arm, but I was not that close."  I did not even hear the whistle.  I let the Grade 15 and Baldref continue their feedback to him.  The CR got the feedback he needed.


The reason I'm a little frustrated by what I have read so far is that no one is saying that the referee crew did anything DURING the game to ameliorate what they saw as bad refereeing, only saying what they did after the fact.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> If that was the extent of his problems I would have to say it was a very minor problem.


Well
It wasn't
But what would I know I was there and you weren't
If you were, you likely would have a different opinion. I know you dislike referees criticizing other referees, but this individual could not do the job he is supposed to be doing well. It is a fact like it or not


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Trust me, that guy did not have any angle.  He was 40 yards straight up field with at least 10 players between him and the call.


I was saying in general, not specifically to this case. Having a good angle is generally more important than being close in most instances.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> Well
> It wasn't
> But what would I know I was there and you weren't
> If you were, you likely would have a different opinion. I know you dislike referees criticizing other referees, but this individual could not do the job he is supposed to be doing well. It is a fact like it or not


I'm only commenting based on what you wrote, and the only problem you mentioned was physicality.


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## baldref (Sep 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> The reason I'm a little frustrated by what I have read so far is that no one is saying that the referee crew did anything DURING the game to ameliorate what they saw as bad refereeing, only saying what they did after the fact.


I did my best to help him, as I always do. His "stature" and fitness prevented him from being effective, and he did not allow us ARs to do much to help him. 
Anyway, I'm done defending myself for your perceived poor performance on my part.


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## Just a Parent (Sep 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> I did my best to help him, as I always do. His "stature" and fitness prevented him from being effective, and he did not allow us ARs to do much to help him.
> Anyway, I'm done defending myself for your perceived poor performance on my part.


I have no idea why you're being so defensive, but okay.


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## MWN (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> The reason I'm a little frustrated by what I have read so far is that no one is saying that the referee crew did anything DURING the game to ameliorate what they saw as bad refereeing, only saying what they did after the fact.


I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's.  Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen."   If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant.  Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials."  Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag.  It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants"  The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play.  In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.).  There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.


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## MWN (Oct 27, 2016)

SocalSoccerMom said:


> I do recall seeing something back then with Presidio.  This was for SCDSL game.  There have to be better requirements to be certified than taking some online courses and one day training sessions.  If there is a shortage, why not send 2 refs that are more experienced than 2 ARs who barely understand the game and spend most of their time watching vs reffing.


Because the 2 Referee system is not permitted under most league rules.  The rules typically require the Home Club to provide a "Club Linesman" if one or both AR's are not present.  Again, the AR's are not the Referee.  A Referee in good position will "see" the same thing as the AR's 98.3% of the time.

I'll also point out that sometimes a younger ref is asked to AR an older game because of a shortage of available refs.  My 13 year old son's first "club" experience as an AR (he had 3 years refereeing Rec) was an emergency assignment where the Center was short a referee and asked him to help on 45 minutes notice.  He was asked to AR a U16 game.  He trailed a little behind the 2nd to last defender and missed a few offside calls, but was far, far better than any of the "dads or moms" that would have been enlisted as the "Club Linesman" if he wasn't there.


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## baldref (Oct 27, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's.  Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen."   If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant.  Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials."  Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."
> 
> The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag.  It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants"  The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play.  In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.).  There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.
> 
> All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.



I don't agree with this. The ref team is just that, a team. While it is true that the final decision is with the center referee, the ARs are never "irrelevant". Having good communication and understanding with your ARs and trusting them is extremely important and helpful to calling the match correctly. 

There are some referees who subscribed to this, and really don't pay much attention to their ARS, except when they need "help", but those referees are not the best referees. In my opinion, making even simple and obvious calls without looking to and communicating with your AR, is wasting a great resource and somewhat disrespectful of that AR and the game in general.


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## Laced (Oct 27, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's.  Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen."   If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant.  Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials."  Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."
> 
> The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag.  It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants"  The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play.  In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.).  There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.
> 
> All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.


The Referee is given such absolute power in soccer largely because "the flow of the game," unique to soccer, is given paramount importance. The match is one game, unlike American sports which are a series of mini games. That's why there's no timeout, no water breaks (the last WC was the first time ever to have water breaks due to extreme heat). Injured players are to be treated quickly or be removed from the field. Substitution has always been limited to the minimal. By comparison, in baseball, a new pitcher has all the time in the world to warm up. In basketball, the game is constantly interrupted by timeouts. In football, an injured player is attended to for as long as it takes. I don't think "the flow of the game" tradition or importance is fully appreciated in the US. That's why a forum regular and a ref mistakes "All referee's decisions are final" as an authorizing clause. It's not. It's to be understood in the context of "the flow of the game." The referee cannot reverse himself once the game has restarted. He or she is not to be persuaded even by ARs to reverse his decisions for the sake of the flow of the game. Instant replay is resisted by MLB but it's unthinkable in soccer.

The referee's power, understood in this context, doesn't mean that ARs don't have an important role to play. They're crucial in offside and out of bounds calls.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's.  Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen."   If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant.  Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials."  Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."
> 
> The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag.  It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants"  The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play.  In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.).  There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.
> 
> All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.


I think my frustration stems from the 


MWN said:


> I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's.  Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen."   If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant.  Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials."  Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."
> 
> The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag.  It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants"  The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play.  In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.).  There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.
> 
> All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.


Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

baldref said:


> I don't agree with this. The ref team is just that, a team. While it is true that the final decision is with the center referee, the ARs are never "irrelevant". Having good communication and understanding with your ARs and trusting them is extremely important and helpful to calling the match correctly.
> 
> There are some referees who subscribed to this, and really don't pay much attention to their ARS, except when they need "help", but those referees are not the best referees. In my opinion, making even simple and obvious calls without looking to and communicating with your AR, is wasting a great resource and somewhat disrespectful of that AR and the game in general.


Not to mention bad refereeing. 

Thank you. Thank you.


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## baldref (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I think my frustration stems from the
> Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.


Connected is a word I always use in my pregames when I have less experienced or youth referees working with me. Love that word in this context.


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## MWN (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> I think my frustration stems from the
> Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.


There is no question they must work as a team and a good Center is going to sit down with the ARs, explain his/her expectations, and rely on the AR's perspective (i.e. take their advice).  But, the AR's are powerless to stop the play and call the Referee over to them, they don't blow whistles and have no authority or say ... they only give advice.  The AR's can and must signal what they see, but you know as well as I that this information is advisory.  Its not a "call."  Only the center Referee has the authority under the laws of the game to enforce the rules.  The AR signals ball out of bound for the red team ... the Ref calls "blue team" ... the AR puts his flag down and signals for the "blue" despite knowing that the Ref is dead wrong.  No debate.

What I wrote is accurate under the 2016/17 Laws of the Game.  

Law 06: "Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee. The match officials operate under the direction of the referee. In the event of undue interference or improper conduct, the referee will relieve them of their duties and make a report to the appropriate authorities."

Quite simply, the AR's do not have the power to overrule or remove a Center.

Finally, with the 2017 rewrite of the Laws, the IFAB made a point to refer to the ARs, fourth and others as "THE OTHER MATCH OFFICIALS" in an effort to clear the ambiguity that they are "referees" with any independence.  Rather, they work under the direction of the Referee.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 27, 2016)

MWN said:


> There is no question they must work as a team and a good Center is going to sit down with the ARs, explain his/her expectations, and rely on the AR's perspective (i.e. take their advice).  But, the AR's are powerless to stop the play and call the Referee over to them, they don't blow whistles and have no authority or say ... they only give advice.  The AR's can and must signal what they see, but you know as well as I that this information is advisory.  Its not a "call."  Only the center Referee has the authority under the laws of the game to enforce the rules.  The AR signals ball out of bound for the red team ... the Ref calls "blue team" ... the AR puts his flag down and signals for the "blue" despite knowing that the Ref is dead wrong.  No debate.
> 
> What I wrote is accurate under the 2016/17 Laws of the Game.
> 
> ...


The fact that you are referring to the referee as "center", in itself tells me something. 

But back to the point. Referees and assistants must communicate by eye contact or other prearranged signal before every call. They must communicate before any critical call, of which there are many during the course of any match. If they are doing their job as they should, they would be communicating at every single stoppage. The referee need not be called at any time for this to happen. There should never arise an instance of conflicting direction at any time and when ARs see things that should be happening and they're not, they should let the referee know in real time, not after the fact. What I'm describing has been a basic staple of good refereeing for at least 25 years, (in this country anyway). That is why there is a guide to procedures. At certain levels of the game if you refereed as you describe here, that most likely will be the last and only game either of you will see at that level.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> *The fact that you are referring to the referee as "center", in itself tells me something. *
> 
> But back to the point. Referees and assistants must communicate by eye contact or other prearranged signal before every call. They must communicate before any critical call, of which there are many during the course of any match. If they are doing their job as they should, they would be communicating at every single stoppage. The referee need not be called at any time for this to happen. There should never arise an instance of conflicting direction at any time and when ARs see things that should be happening and they're not, they should let the referee know in real time, not after the fact. What I'm describing has been a basic staple of good refereeing for at least 25 years, (in this country anyway). That is why there is a guide to procedures. At certain levels of the game if you refereed as you describe here, that most likely will be the last and only game either of you will see at that level.


As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite  all understanding the intent and meaning:
"It's the touch line, not sideline."
"There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
"There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
"You don't understand, because there is no offsides, its offside."
"Obviously you're confused, as there are no rules in soccer, only laws."

That being said, the point that was asserted is that ARs cannot "control," "overrule," "fix" or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during the game. A point that every parent, referee, coach or player should agree with and understand.


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite  all understanding the intent and meaning:
> "It's the touch line, not sideline."
> "There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
> "There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
> ...


The OP's question was why the "referee crew" did not do anything "during the game."   The thread got sideways.  Thank you for understanding the point.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite  all understanding the intent and meaning:
> "It's the touch line, not sideline."
> "There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
> "There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
> ...


The point you missed was that only certain referees refer to referees as "Center", not that the correct terminology is used. But I have a sneaky feeling you knew this but you were being dishonest.

Be that as it may, the AR can absolutely control, fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during a game. Absolutely. But that wasn't even the point here. You painted a picture of the 1960s refereeing style where the referee was the boss and controlled everything, with 2 minions with limited authority and say who only became relevant when the boss needed information, hence your "General" and "Privates" characterization; and tried to say that is how refereeing is done today. We have moved a long way from that. But unfortunately there are still referees like you, well meaning but still living in the past. This attitude seems to be prevalent in certain areas more than others.


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> The point you missed was that only certain referees refer to referees as "Center", not that the correct terminology is used. But I have a sneaky feeling you knew this but you were being dishonest.
> 
> Be that as it may, the AR can absolutely control, fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during a game. Absolutely. But that wasn't even the point here. You painted a picture of the 1960s refereeing style where the referee was the boss and controlled everything, with 2 minions with limited authority and say who only became relevant when the boss needed information, hence your "General" and "Privates" characterization; and tried to say that is how refereeing is done today. We have moved a long way from that. But unfortunately there are still referees like you, well meaning but still living in the past. This attitude seems to be prevalent in certain areas more than others.


I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent."  I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner.  You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade.  I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).

My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game.  Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals.  So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent."  I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner.  You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade.  I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).
> 
> My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game.  Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals.  So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?


Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent."  I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner.  You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade.  I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).
> 
> My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game.  Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals.  So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?


Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?


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## MWN (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?


And interrupt the flow of the game?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent."  I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner.  You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade.  I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).
> 
> My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game.  Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals.  So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?


Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> And interrupt the flow of the game?


How?


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2016)

MWN said:


> I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent." * I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner. * You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade.  I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).


Sadly, after a few reasonably civilized posts where JustaParent directly "tackles" the issue and presents facts and opinion, we're back to the unproductive responding to questions with questions. Too bad.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 28, 2016)

Just a Parent said:


> The point you missed was that only certain referees refer to referees as "Center", not that the correct terminology is used. But I have a sneaky feeling you knew this but you were being dishonest.


No. You are making my point for me. To say "*only* certain referees refer to referees as 'Center'", and then dismiss them as new refs, or ignorant refs is the trip up. Many of us grew up with the terms "sideline," "penalty box," "hand ball," "offsides," and "trap," and . . . "Center ref." Using these terms does not place us in a category of know-nothing referee/coach/parent/player. 

I still occasionally say Price Club instead of Costco, but I still know where the toilet paper, huge bags of tortilla chips and rotisserie chickens are.


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## espola (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> No. You are making my point for me. To say "*only* certain referees refer to referees as 'Center'", and then dismiss them as new refs, or ignorant refs is the trip up. Many of us grew up with the terms "sideline," "penalty box," "hand ball," "offsides," and "trap," and . . . "Center ref." Using these terms does not place us in a category of know-nothing referee/coach/parent/player.
> 
> I still occasionally say Price Club instead of Costco, but I still know where the toilet paper, huge bags of tortilla chips and rotisserie chickens are.


When someone says "center" or "offsides" or "handball", I know what he means and respond appropriately.  JaP likes to pretend he is superior by scoffing at word usage like that.

BTW, the word "handball" appears in the newest version of LOTG, and it means exactly what we intended all along.


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## GunninGopher (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Sadly, after a few reasonably civilized posts where JustaParent directly "tackles" the issue and presents facts and opinion, we're back to the unproductive responding to questions with questions. Too bad.


Really. This was a good thread about how much an "other match official" can impact or help a deficient CR. It would be nice if once these threads go awry, someone would cull out the trolling posts put them in a "Troll Battle" group or something like that. 



coachrefparent said:


> No. You are making my point for me. To say "*only* certain referees refer to referees as 'Center'", and then dismiss them as new refs, or ignorant refs is the trip up. Many of us grew up with the terms "sideline," "penalty box," "hand ball," "offsides," and "trap," and . . . "Center ref." Using these terms does not place us in a category of know-nothing referee/coach/parent/player...


JaP is best ignored when it gets to this point. He/she revels in taking people down to his/her level. If you take the bait, he/she wins.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> No. You are making my point for me. To say "*only* certain referees refer to referees as 'Center'", and then dismiss them as new refs, or ignorant refs is the trip up. Many of us grew up with the terms "sideline," "penalty box," "hand ball," "offsides," and "trap," and . . . "Center ref." Using these terms does not place us in a category of know-nothing referee/coach/parent/player.
> 
> I still occasionally say Price Club instead of Costco, but I still know where the toilet paper, huge bags of tortilla chips and rotisserie chickens are.


Your childish conclusions aside, I didn't dismiss anyone. All I said was your referring to the referee as "Center" tells me something. It does. I made no reference to your other pet peeves and needless to say, I do not give a damn about them.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Sadly, after a few reasonably civilized posts where JustaParent directly "tackles" the issue and presents facts and opinion, we're back to the unproductive responding to questions with questions. Too bad.


How is the flow going to be affected?


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## Just a Parent (Oct 28, 2016)

espola said:


> When someone says "center" or "offsides" or "handball", I know what he means and respond appropriately.  JaP likes to pretend he is superior by scoffing at word usage like that.
> 
> BTW, the word "handball" appears in the newest version of LOTG, and it means exactly what we intended all along.


It appears your comprehension is not getting better with age. This had nothing to do with phraseology.


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## C.A.M. (Nov 18, 2016)

This was such a good read at first. Then the blah blah blah started.

As a parent with two kids playing at pretty high levels, I see the range of officials over the 3-6 game weekends. The best ones are the ones without egos who are actually into doing their job well. They always communicate well to the players, coaches and parents and do it without the power trip.

The officiating this season is much, much better than last season. Last season felt like we were being handed people more worried about yelling at the parents then actually calling fair games and keeping our kids safe. 

I have had great conversations with refs at Surf Cup, Blues Cup and league games where really consequential calls were made that seemed like blown calls and was given great explanations of the officiating point of view. It really helps to get that information and not being told to just watch the game and be quiet.

Thanks for all the great officiating and information.


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## Surfref (Nov 18, 2016)

MWN said:


> ........ So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?


If they are really screwing up and misapplying the LOTG, replace them.  A couple years ago I was working with a Referee on a U19B game and he was clearly screwing everything up.  As the AR, I got the attention of the Field Marshal and had the tournament referee coordinator come to the field and watch the Referee.  The Referee was pulled off the game at halftime and I took his spot and we had a new AR take my spot.  We told the coaches that the Referee was injured.  Evidently, the original Referee had recently moved from the east coast and told the assignor that he had experience with all ages of youth players.  Turned out he had only worked U10 and below rec games.

I have worked with some really bad Referees (Center) and there is almost always a way for the AR to assist during the game without taking over the game.  The halftime talk is used to help get the Referee back on track and tends to work most of the time.  It just depends on if the Referee takes the advice, feedback and signals or is a narcissistic a-hole and ignores the AR's.  Most of the narcissistic a-hole referees that I have work with tend to be older Emeritus referees.  They are so set in their ways that they think their shit-don't-stink and they are never wrong.  I truly think it is an ego thing with them and they cannot come to terms that they have gotten old, cannot see as well, and have trouble running and keeping up with play.  Some of the problems fall back on the assignors that continue to assign these old slow referee to high school age and adult games based off of what they used to be able to do.  These Emeritus referees usually know their stuff but just cannot keep up with play which puts them way out of position so they miss or make bad calls.  These Emeritus referees would be welcomed on U12 and below games that they can keep up with the speed of play and help mentor young referees.  I saw a State Emeritus (SE) ref running an AR on a BU19 game a few weeks ago and he could not keep up with the second to last defender.  The SE ref should realize he cannot keep up with play and stop working HS age club or college games.  The assignor should also have the balls to tell the SE ref that he cannot cut it anymore.  They don't because they do not want to hurt the ref's feeling' or due to the "Good Old Boy Network."


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## Surfref (Nov 18, 2016)

C.A.M. said:


> I have had great conversations with refs at Surf Cup, Blues Cup and league games where really consequential calls were made that seemed like blown calls and was given great explanations of the officiating point of view. It really helps to get that information and not being told to just watch the game and be quiet.
> 
> Thanks for all the great officiating and information.


Good Post

As an AR conversing with parents on the sidelines can be like walking through a minefield.  Some parents actually do not know the LOTG interpretation and appreciate an explanation from the AR.  Others have a knowledge of the LOTG and when told why a foul was or was not called understand and appreciate the explanation.  Then there are the landmine parents who will argue with the AR/referee no matter what they say and how correct the call was.  This is the reason that I am very hesitant to engage in a conversation with the parents on the sideline.  With all of the rule/interpretation changes for the 2016-2017 LOTG, I have talked to parents as an AR more than normal.  99% of the parents appreciate the update on the LOTG and the explanation as to why a call or restart was done in a different way.  But, there is still that 1% of parents that think they know more about the LOTG than me.  That 1% screw it up for everyone. 

Although sometimes there is a lot going on with the game that it is impossible to answer a question from a parent. Then I just ignore them.  I think it would be rude to say, "Just watch the game."  To throw in the "and be quiet" would be rude and unprofessional.


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## espola (Nov 18, 2016)

Surfref said:


> If they are really screwing up and misapplying the LOTG, replace them.  A couple years ago I was working with a Referee on a U19B game and he was clearly screwing everything up.  As the AR, I got the attention of the Field Marshal and had the tournament referee coordinator come to the field and watch the Referee.  The Referee was pulled off the game at halftime and I took his spot and we had a new AR take my spot.  We told the coaches that the Referee was injured.  Evidently, the original Referee had recently moved from the east coast and told the assignor that he had experience with all ages of youth players.  Turned out he had only worked U10 and below rec games.
> 
> I have worked with some really bad Referees (Center) and there is almost always a way for the AR to assist during the game without taking over the game.  The halftime talk is used to help get the Referee back on track and tends to work most of the time.  It just depends on if the Referee takes the advice, feedback and signals or is a narcissistic a-hole and ignores the AR's.  Most of the narcissistic a-hole referees that I have work with tend to be older Emeritus referees.  They are so set in their ways that they think their shit-don't-stink and they are never wrong.  I truly think it is an ego thing with them and they cannot come to terms that they have gotten old, cannot see as well, and have trouble running and keeping up with play.  Some of the problems fall back on the assignors that continue to assign these old slow referee to high school age and adult games based off of what they used to be able to do.  These Emeritus referees usually know their stuff but just cannot keep up with play which puts them way out of position so they miss or make bad calls.  These Emeritus referees would be welcomed on U12 and below games that they can keep up with the speed of play and help mentor young referees.  I saw a State Emeritus (SE) ref running an AR on a BU19 game a few weeks ago and he could not keep up with the second to last defender.  The SE ref should realize he cannot keep up with play and stop working HS age club or college games.  The assignor should also have the balls to tell the SE ref that he cannot cut it anymore.  They don't because they do not want to hurt the ref's feeling' or due to the "Good Old Boy Network."


I formally liked this post, but I must point out that replacing the referee for cause at half time and then telling the coaches that he is injured might be seen by some as an example of  good-old-boy-network protection.


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## Surfref (Nov 18, 2016)

espola said:


> I formally liked this post, but I must point out that replacing the referee for cause at half time and then telling the coaches that he is injured might be seen by some as an example of  good-old-boy-network protection.


He did have a lower leg cramp that was visibly impairing his running during the first half.  So technically we were being truthful.  The coaches really did not care why he was replaced.  They were just happy that he was gone for the second half.


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## baldref (Nov 18, 2016)

Surfref said:


> He did have a lower leg cramp that was visibly impairing his running during the first half.  So technically we were being truthful.  The coaches really did not care why he was replaced.  They were just happy that he was gone for the second half.


it really hurt!


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