# Days between Games-  2 games a weekend is a BAD idea



## timbuck (Oct 4, 2021)

WFA_Study-on-recovery-days
					

WFA_Study-on-recovery-days Read more about europa, teams, goals, amsterdam, verheijen and stoke.




					www.yumpu.com
				



Study from 2012 across pro leagues in Europe.

Summary:  Teams that don't have at least 3 days of rest between games are at a significant disadvantage when playing teams with sufficient rest.

I don't think you need to be a "rocket surgeon" to recognize that players with proper recovery and rest are better suited for a competitive match.
So why do leagues/tournaments/clubs/parents continue to run players out on back-to-back days?

*Leagues: * We need to get in 10-12 games during a season. And we can't do that unless we play almost every Saturday and Sunday.  And now we will allow a player to play 2 games in a day (League didn't allow this 2 years ago.  But now that we have teams dealing with covid fallout, they seem to think it's ok)
*Tournaments:* 2 games in a day for 2-3 days in a row is necessary to crown a champion.
*Clubs:*  Our B team only has 13 players for this weekend.  Let's take 4 players from the A team and have them fill in.  Now that the league allows it, the A team players will play 2 games on Saturday and 2 games on Sunday.  But they are on the A team-  More soccer is good for them.
*Parents: *Little Jenny loves soccer. She'll play any day she can.  She played 2 games with her club on Saturday (the A team coach wants to see her play with them more often).  And she played a game on Sunday.  She started all 3 games and never subbed out.  Then she went and played a pickup game with her brothers friends sunday afternoon.  She can't wait for practice on Monday.  Their Monday practice is for fitness. She really needs fitness training. She seems to be getting slower.


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## dad4 (Oct 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days
> 
> 
> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days Read more about europa, teams, goals, amsterdam, verheijen and stoke.
> ...


It’s a financial issue for the top 20-50 teams nationally at each age group, at least the ones not from socal.   

Your closest good matches might still be very far away.   It’s hard to justify a 400 mile trip to play one game.  That 4 games in 2 days tournament is looking like a better deal.

Even if you did want to do 2 games over 3 days, how would you arrange it when all the other top teams do ECNL or MLS + tournments?


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## crush (Oct 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days
> 
> 
> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days Read more about europa, teams, goals, amsterdam, verheijen and stoke.
> ...


One game on Saturday and one on Wednesday Coach.  Sunday, no more games.  It's should be a day with family and fun.  This soccer has gotten way out of hand.  I told my two years straight to only play one game and it goes in one aer and out the other.  We need help big time.  Back to back and work is a bit too much, moo.  She plays to win and works to win too.


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## Yousername (Oct 4, 2021)

We had back to backs this weekend- one in San Bernardino and one in Norco. If the heat wasn’t bad enough on day 1, you can imagine how bad it was on all of them by the end of game day 2. Totally in support of not having 2 games on the weekend, especially every weekend.


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## notintheface (Oct 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Their Monday practice is for fitness.


If their coach doesn't give them the day off after Sat/Sun, maybe have a word. At most it should be a day of extremely low-impact work. Set plays, crossbar challenge, whatever.


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## Chelseafc (Oct 4, 2021)

May


Yousername said:


> We had back to backs this weekend- one in San Bernardino and one in Norco. If the heat wasn’t bad enough on day 1, you can imagine how bad it was on all of them by the end of game day 2. Totally in support of not having 2 games on the weekend, especially every weekend.


be that’s why certain clubs are rescheduling.


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## Chelseafc (Oct 4, 2021)

May


Yousername said:


> We had back to backs this weekend- one in San Bernardino and one in Norco. If the heat wasn’t bad enough on day 1, you can imagine how bad it was on all of them by the end of game day 2. Totally in support of not having 2 games on the weekend, especially every weekend.


Maybe that’s why certain clubs are rescheduling.


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## supercell (Oct 4, 2021)

There are a few aspects to consider including injury risk, development, and performance. 
I would put that injury risk is not that significant in youth soccer provided there is sufficient rest time during the week. If you're going to play two on the weekend, there has to be some compensation on Monday and perhaps Tuesday. It's primarily when you train 4 days per week, and then have 2 weekend games week after week that injury risk is increased. From a development perspective, it's fairly obvious that more game time leads to better development. Finally, you have performance. Taking this study at face value, performance does appear to drop off with insufficient recovery time. Pretty obvious. Taking all 3 in consideration, my opinion is that 2 games per weekend is a good trade for youths playing at an advanced level.
Further, logistically in our country, 2 games per weekend has alot of leverage for leagues like ECNL with long travel. It becomes much easier and cheaper to package away games in pairs.


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## timbuck (Oct 4, 2021)

supercell said:


> There are a few aspects to consider including injury risk, development, and performance.
> I would put that injury risk is not that significant in *youth soccer* provided there is sufficient rest time during the week. If you're going to play two on the weekend, there has to be some compensation on Monday and perhaps Tuesday. It's primarily when you train 4 days per week, and then have 2 weekend games week after week that injury risk is increased. From a development perspective, it's fairly obvious that more game time leads to better development. Finally, you have performance. Taking this study at face value, performance does appear to drop off with insufficient recovery time. Pretty obvious. Taking all 3 in consideration, my opinion is that 2 games per weekend is a good trade for youths playing at an advanced level.
> Further, logistically in our country, 2 games per weekend has alot of leverage for leagues like ECNL with long travel. It becomes much easier and cheaper to package away games in pairs.


I highlighted "youth soccer" here because I agree with you until about 13 or 14 years old.  Once they start playing 80 and 90 minute games-  These are essentially adult bodies for the majority of players (females especially).
And for an ECNL team that has  a large roster-  If players are rotating maybe not as big of a deal.   
But for your F1/Discovery team with a roster of anything less than 16-  It's a lot to put on a developing athlete.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 4, 2021)

There was a national league that did this.  Even guaranteed every player a certain minimum number of starts.   Was universally pooped on by parents and this forum.  The league no longer exists.


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## timbuck (Oct 4, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> There was a national league that did this.  Even guaranteed every player a certain minimum number of starts.   Was universally pooped on by parents and this forum.  The league no longer exists.


What you described was one of the best things to come out of "that league"-


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## ChrisD (Oct 4, 2021)

maybe its not the club and its the parents fault for thinking that much soccer is good for a kid over a weekend.


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## timbuck (Oct 4, 2021)

notintheface said:


> If their coach doesn't give them the day off after Sat/Sun, maybe have a word. At most it should be a day of extremely low-impact work. Set plays, crossbar challenge, whatever.


That's another issue if you are playing for multiple teams for your club each weekend.  Maybe you played for the "other" team on Sunday.  That team trains on Tuesdays. But your team practices on Monday and didn't have a game on Sunday.


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## MacDre (Oct 4, 2021)

Letter leagues and flight 1 soccer are primarily  a sham.  The vast majority of players lack basic fundamentals and are not elite.  

The problems with the lack of rest and recovery stems from coaches having to earn their pay.  There isn’t much development going on in these games as many players lack basic fundamentals.  I understand folks have to make a living so, it is what it is.

I’m convinced all high school sports are the way to go.  I don’t see how high school soccer games are lower quality or more dangerous than letter leagues as they both have many players that lack basic fundamentals.  I think folks are falling for marketing and are not actually paying attention to what’s going in these letter league games; IDK, maybe it the cool backpacks the players get because it sure isn’t the level of play.

I’m confident my player participating in high school XC, soccer, and swim team will develop her better than any coach in any letter league with a substantially lower risk of injury.

Coaches have to get paid and therein lies the real problem.

My player was at the skatepark chilling and chopping it up with her patnas this weekend.  She’s fully rested and recovered for XC practice today.


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## lafalafa (Oct 4, 2021)

News flash: most club pay to play sports are not setup or consider what's best for players.

Most tournaments, leagues, clubs put finances before players so they don't care of you played at 5pm 100 miles away from home and then schedule you a 8am the very next day at another remote complex.

Many parents go along with charade for a while but the kids get tired of it after a while which  contributies to the huge drop out rates.  If youth soccer clubs keep graduation rates like schools do you might be surprised that < 50% of U9 players are still around at u18/19 and < 10% of high school players play in college. Only 2% of high school athletes (1 in 57) go on to play at NCAA Division I schools.

The odds are really not in most players favor unless you like The hunger games. 

Don't much too much stock in youth sports, invest in your kids education or crypto which is about the only thing more volatile  than club soccer with likely a worse return. 

 Yeah yeah we don't think of it as a investment blah blah.  Disposable income entertainment but I don't know spending 6 hours away for 60-90 mins of play doesn't sound entertaining to me.


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## BIGD (Oct 4, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Letter leagues and flight 1 soccer are primarily  a sham.  The vast majority of players lack basic fundamentals and are not elite.
> 
> The problems with the lack of rest and recovery stems from coaches having to earn their pay.  There isn’t much development going on in these games as many players lack basic fundamentals.  I understand folks have to make a living so, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


This is so spot on.  Went to a D1 soccer match recently and the quality was terrible.  My 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer.

Would love to see a movement back to multiple sports (all the data tells us this is better for kids and athletic performance), and a return to high school sports participation.  We’ve all been fed a bunch of BS from year round travel team marketing and it’s not in the best interest of the kids.


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 4, 2021)

timbuck said:


> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days
> 
> 
> WFA_Study-on-recovery-days Read more about europa, teams, goals, amsterdam, verheijen and stoke.
> ...


In the older age groups (about U13/U14 and above for girls) I'd say there is generally too much emphasis on the importance of playing games and not enough on challenging training and controlled scrimmages. Much can be accomplished in training by using mixed age groups and training with boys at times. One game a weekend is all I want at this point. I'd take one in the middle of the week if it can be arranged. Consider the ECNL Playoffs. To make it to the semifinals last season in U17 a girls' team would play 4 games in 6 days. In the 2018 World Cup the French mens' team played their first 4 games over 15 days. Whereas an ECNL team had 2 days off during their 4 games, the French team had 11 days off.


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 4, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Letter leagues and flight 1 soccer are primarily  a sham.  The vast majority of players lack basic fundamentals and are not elite.
> 
> The problems with the lack of rest and recovery stems from coaches having to earn their pay.  There isn’t much development going on in these games as many players lack basic fundamentals.  I understand folks have to make a living so, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


I agree with the idea that there are other ways to reach soccer potential than the letter leagues. I'd argue you missed the mark a bit on HS soccer vs. club. Maybe it's just my experience with the two clubs my daughter played in but I haven't heard one girl say anything close to "HS soccer skill level is as good as club". The other thing each said is the fouling is worse and it's more physical. Every player I spoke to played HS soccer for the social aspect. That's something HS easily has over club sports. Also, while there are other paths to college soccer, ECNL is a common one that has the bulk of the top recruits. I think it's more following the well-worn path than marketing. I do like the creativity you are putting into your daughter's path. If it's working for her, that's good for everyone. Others may find the path she takes is better for their daughter. I'm a fan of choices.


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## MacDre (Oct 4, 2021)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I agree with the idea that there are other ways to reach soccer potential than the letter leagues. I'd argue you missed the mark a bit on HS soccer vs. club. Maybe it's just my experience with the two clubs my daughter played in but I haven't heard one girl say anything close to "HS soccer skill level is as good as club". The other thing each said is the fouling is worse and it's more physical. Every player I spoke to played HS soccer for the social aspect. That's something HS easily has over club sports. Also, while there are other paths to college soccer, ECNL is a common one that has the bulk of the top recruits. I think it's more following the well-worn path than marketing. I do like the creativity you are putting into your daughter's path. If it's working for her, that's good for everyone. Others may find the path she takes is better for their daughter. I'm a fan of choices.


I think choice is good but that ain’t what I’m talking about.  My position is that if your player is in a letter league, you are most likely being hustled and not getting the benefit of your bargain.  My kid wants to play club soccer but she said developing in club soccer is like “chasing unicorns.”  I’ve also seen some kids juggle skillfully, or make a sick move on the wrong part of the field.  But, I respectfully submit that the skill you are seeing displayed in club soccer is not the skill needed to be elite.  The emphasis is wrong and the skills of which you speak are a distinction without a difference.  Speed of play and decision making make a player elite and these skills are lacking in all of club soccer including the so called elite letter leagues.

Caveat Emptor!!’


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 4, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think choice is good but that ain’t what I’m talking about.  My position is that if your player is in a letter league, you are most likely being hustled and not getting the benefit of your bargain.  My kid wants to play club soccer but she said developing in club soccer is like “chasing unicorns.”  I’ve also seen some kids juggle skillfully, or make a sick move on the wrong part of the field.  But, I respectfully submit that the skill you are seeing displayed in club soccer is not the skill needed to be elite.  The emphasis is wrong and the skills of which you speak are a distinction without a difference.  Speed of play and decision making make a player elite and these skills are lacking in all of club soccer including the so called elite letter leagues.
> 
> Caveat Emptor!!’


I like it. I take it she's getting her rondos and other speed-of-play work somewhere other than HS, right? Also, "elite" is in the eye of the beholder and qualitative. Just for reference, what is your estimate of the number of elite girls soccer players in the US? (I roughly estimate about 12,000 girls - 750 teams * 16 players/team - of ECNL age playing ECNL).


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## what-happened (Oct 4, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think choice is good but that ain’t what I’m talking about.  My position is that if your player is in a letter league, you are most likely being hustled and not getting the benefit of your bargain.  My kid wants to play club soccer but she said developing in club soccer is like “chasing unicorns.”  I’ve also seen some kids juggle skillfully, or make a sick move on the wrong part of the field.  But, I respectfully submit that the skill you are seeing displayed in club soccer is not the skill needed to be elite.  The emphasis is wrong and the skills of which you speak are a distinction without a difference.  Speed of play and decision making make a player elite and these skills are lacking in all of club soccer including the so called elite letter leagues.
> 
> Caveat Emptor!!’


I think you are just stirring the pot but anyway.  

You keep using euro boys development examples as a template for US girls.  Where you want to go is rarified air, few make it.  Mostly they will come out of clubs, a few will come from somewhere else.  The OM template (always comes back to her, especially in this place) is actually a pretty good one.  High level club play was instrumental in exposure and connections.  Dedicated, soccer specific training outside of club is what likely catapaulted  her to where she is now.  Her ceiling is high and her parents (whether you like it or not) did an excellent job of managing her air space.


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## MacDre (Oct 4, 2021)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I like it. I take it she's getting her rondos and other speed-of-play work somewhere other than HS, right? Also, "elite" is in the eye of the beholder and qualitative. Just for reference, what is your estimate of the number of elite girls soccer players in the US? (I roughly estimate about 12,000 girls - 750 teams * 16 players/team - of ECNL age playing ECNL).


I think the speed-of-play work in HS and club are both equally bad.  HS is cheaper in time and money with the added social benefit. My player will supplement her HS sport with training in Mexico to improve speed of play.

I also agree that what is considered elite is debatable.  But, I think it’s safe to say that players that haven’t mastered basic fundamentals are not elite; and most players in letter leagues have not mastered basic fundamentals and are nowhere close to being elite.

I do think several players in the club soccer ecosystem could be elite with the appropriate environment but club soccer ain’t it.

I also think some in the past have become elite despite club soccer and not because of it.


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## MacDre (Oct 4, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I think you are just stirring the pot but anyway.
> 
> You keep using euro boys development examples as a template for US girls.  Where you want to go is rarified air, few make it.  Mostly they will come out of clubs, a few will come from somewhere else.  The OM template (always comes back to her, especially in this place) is actually a pretty good one.  High level club play was instrumental in exposure and connections.  Dedicated, soccer specific training outside of club is what likely catapaulted  her to where she is now.  Her ceiling is high and her parents (whether you like it or not) did an excellent job of managing her air space.


I am simply talking about players mastering basic fundamentals and injury prevention.  US females are definitely capable of mastering their fundamentals if given the appropriate environment.

You are going off on a tangent my friend.


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## what-happened (Oct 4, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I am simply talking about players mastering basic fundamentals and injury prevention.  US females are definitely capable of mastering their fundamentals if given the appropriate environment.
> 
> You are going off on a tangent my friend.


Maybe, it's late..


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## Kicker4Life (Oct 5, 2021)

BIGD said:


> This is so spot on.  Went to a D1 soccer match recently and the quality was terrible.  My 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer.
> 
> Would love to see a movement back to multiple sports (all the data tells us this is better for kids and athletic performance), and a return to high school sports participation.  We’ve all been fed a bunch of BS from year round travel team marketing and it’s not in the best interest of the kids.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

It’s too early in the morning to start throwing shade.  Chillax and listen to this Bay Area slapper patna:


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I am simply talking about players mastering basic fundamentals and injury prevention.  US females are definitely capable of mastering their fundamentals if given the appropriate environment.
> 
> You are going off on a tangent my friend.


There’s some great high school soccer games that I’ve seen.   However, most of  them (boys) is typically run and gun style.      There’s no way that a high  school coach can develop a player when soccer is only a 3 month season sport.     Development happens at the coach level at the younger age.   Development happens with parents taking kids to do futsal, private lessons, and kids that take time to do some passing drills against a wall at home.    
High school soccer is fun to watch but you are not going to see great technical skills from the entire team.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> There’s some great high school soccer games that I’ve seen.   However, most of  them (boys) is typically run and gun style.      There’s no way that a high  school coach can develop a player when soccer is only a 3 month season sport.     Development happens at the coach level at the younger age.   Development happens with parents taking kids to do futsal, private lessons, and kids that take time to do some passing drills against a wall at home.
> High school soccer is fun to watch but you are not going to see great technical skills from the entire team.


You are not going to see great technical skills in a letter league either.  But you will see lots of great dribblers consistently doing dumb shit like taking on 3 defenders and playing slow.  I maintain the benefit of club soccer should be to increase speed of play/learn tactics and improve decision making; you know, team stuff!

I agree that technical skills, fitness, and mental can and should be done outside of practice.  So, if a player plays a sport during every HS season, does rondos/speed of play work, and takes PE they’ll be a better athlete than a club player; they will not be as injury prone; they will be more well rounded socially and won’t “have all of their eggs in the same basket.”

So, if a player plays sports throughout the year in HS, does rondos and speed work, and plays in a summer league they will receive substantially better development than what’s being provided by letter leagues.


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## outside! (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think the speed-of-play work in HS and club are both equally bad.  HS is cheaper in time and money with the added social benefit. My player will supplement her HS sport with training in Mexico to improve speed of play.
> 
> I also agree that what is considered elite is debatable.  But, I think it’s safe to say that players that haven’t mastered basic fundamentals are not elite; and most players in letter leagues have not mastered basic fundamentals and are nowhere close to being elite.
> 
> ...


Playing in Mexico is great for your player, but is not a good fit for most. Other than a few select schools, HS soccer does not have the quality of top level club teams in Southern California. Club soccer in SoCal has plenty of problems, but it is still the best option available to those who can afford it. My hope is that in the future, rec soccer significantly improves once all of the parent coaches have significant soccer experience. This will diminish the need for many players to play club, and only the top level will play club.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

outside! said:


> Playing in Mexico is great for your player, but is not a good fit for most. Other than a few select schools, HS soccer does not have the quality of top level club teams in Southern California. Club soccer in SoCal has plenty of problems, but it is still the best option available to those who can afford it. My hope is that in the future, rec soccer significantly improves once all of the parent coaches have significant soccer experience. This will diminish the need for many players to play club, and only the top level will play club.


I think you are using the wrong metric to determine quality.  It appears that folks in the US think that being able to dribble equals quality and skill; I respectfully disagree.  Any player in an elite league should have mastered basic fundamentals so team tactics can be worked on during practice but unfortunately this is not the case.  Paying good money to be on a team of dribblers with a low soccer IQ is detrimental to the development of our players.

It’s funny because in soccer here in the US we constantly talk about what’s being done in Europe.  I call BS, because I think the Europeans copied their advanced tactics from basketball.  I grew up as a street baller with handles but I struggled transitioning to a team environment.  My youth coach would say “Dre, stop dribbling so much and you can’t run faster than a ball”.  My coach also had a rule that we had to pass a minimum of 5 times before we could shoot.  I actually watched the movie Hoosiers with my player to reinforce this concept when she was much younger:








						Hoosiers (film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




So I don’t know if the clubs are scamming or if it’s just ignorant parents focused on wins and losses.  But the basic fundamentals and tactics I am talking about are ALL AMERICAN!!!


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## watfly (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think choice is good but that ain’t what I’m talking about.  My position is that if your player is in a letter league, you are most likely being hustled and not getting the benefit of your bargain.  My kid wants to play club soccer but she said developing in club soccer is like “chasing unicorns.”  I’ve also seen some kids juggle skillfully, or make a sick move on the wrong part of the field.  But, I respectfully submit that the skill you are seeing displayed in club soccer is not the skill needed to be elite.  The emphasis is wrong and the skills of which you speak are a distinction without a difference.  Speed of play and decision making make a player elite and these skills are lacking in all of club soccer including the so called elite letter leagues.
> 
> Caveat Emptor!!’


IMHO, "scanning" is the key to great speed of play.  How many very skilled youth soccer players do you see receive the ball then look up to see where their teammates and defenders are?  They have no clue before they receive the ball where anyone is.  Speed of play is dependent on having a good idea of where you're going with the ball before you receive it.   How many coaches even teach "scanning" or even understand it?  I venture not very many.  Scanning is an integral part of soccer IQ, and I'd say starting around U13 is when soccer IQ really becomes a difference maker.  Unfortunately in the US its also the same time that size becomes a big difference maker in winning, at least for a couple years until it doesn't make much of a difference.









						What is 'Scanning'? The Overlooked Skill That Builds the Foundation of Brilliant Soccer Players
					

Arsène Wenger, legendary former manager of Arsenal, calls this regular checking of one’s surroundings “scanning.”




					www.stack.com


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## lafalafa (Oct 5, 2021)

BIGD said:


> This is so spot on.  Went to a D1 soccer match recently and the quality was terrible.  My 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer.
> 
> Would love to see a movement back to multiple sports (all the data tells us this is better for kids and athletic performance), and a return to high school sports participation.  We’ve all been fed a bunch of BS from year round travel team marketing and it’s not in the best interest of the kids.


All of ours did multiples up until college and it helps but very difficult nowadays when the demands of some sports, high acdemics, any social life.  Going to have to sacrifice somethings and have understanding coaching. The master of none thing is what  some people bring up but that's not necessarily the case,.can be all league or excel at other sports like track and field, volleyball, etc.

If the D1 game you witness didn't have good quality you have club soccer to thank for that somewhat. 90% of D1 domestic soccer players are products of their club environments.

If you can play with good skills and quality in club should be able to do more of that in D1 college.  The resumes of D1 players are often much greater vs nearly all club teams which typically have much fewer D1 "level set" players per team.

The college playing styles can be more like high school vs club soccer yes that can be the case and not that many play pure procession or make things "beautiful" but some college coaching and teams can/do that but typically the game can be more physical, running and gunning or a bunch of battles in the mid field or on set pieces.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 5, 2021)

BIGD said:


> This is so spot on.  Went to a D1 soccer match recently and the quality was terrible.  My 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer.
> 
> Would love to see a movement back to multiple sports (all the data tells us this is better for kids and athletic performance), and a return to high school sports participation.  We’ve all been fed a bunch of BS from year round travel team marketing and it’s not in the best interest of the kids.


You are deluded if you think your 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer as D1.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Letter leagues and flight 1 soccer are primarily  a sham.  The vast majority of players lack basic fundamentals and are not elite.
> 
> The problems with the lack of rest and recovery stems from coaches having to earn their pay.  There isn’t much development going on in these games as many players lack basic fundamentals.  I understand folks have to make a living so, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


HS soccer can be even worse than club.  You either practice or play 6 days a week.  The season is short and you play a ton of games.  I am a firm believer that once a girl hits 15 or so that should have at least two full days between games and should have off at least two days a week from any practice or game to recover.  Ideally they would play not more than 1 game per week.   I have seen so many players either burn out or get injured by playing too much.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> HS soccer can be even worse than club.  You either practice or play 6 days a week.  The season is short and you play a ton of games.  I am a firm believer that once a girl hits 15 or so that should have at least two full days between games and should have off at least two days a week from any practice or game to recover.  Ideally they would play not more than 1 game per week.   I have seen so many players either burn out or get injured by playing too much.


I think an HS “All American” is better athletically developed than a club player for college and professional sports.  For example, my player is running XC which will help her pass the beep test and play a full 90, meet new friends outside of soccer while making running enjoyable.

The soccer season is short so I don’t see much of an opportunity for burnout or overuse injuries for a player not involved with club.

Swim team will help build cardiovascular fitness and recovery which is important for elite soccer players.  Most professional soccer teams have a pool and it seems beneficial for a player to learn how to swim competitively while young because of all the benefits.  Also, another opportunity for players to meet and bond with folks outside of soccer. 

HS soccer is not worse than club if the appropriate metric is used.  The appropriate metric is speed of play and decision making; please elaborate as to why you think the speed of play and decision making in club soccer is superior to HS?


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> You are deluded if you think your 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer as D1.


Come on, Dude is obviously talking about decision making.  Therefore, y’all are deluded if you think the decision making displayed in college soccer is better than what 12 year olds can do.


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## lafalafa (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think an HS “All American” is better athletically developed than a club player for college and professional sports.  For example, my player is running XC which will help her pass the beep test and play a full 90, meet new friends outside of soccer while making running enjoyable.
> 
> The soccer season is short so I don’t see much of an opportunity for burnout or overuse injuries for a player not involved with club.
> 
> ...


Being on the "all American" watch lists is a decent  way to get recruited.   Some people say coaches and scouts don't attend HS games, not really any less for the better programs vs a normal club league game out in some remote complex.

But they do when there interested especially during the post season,  sure there more local but when you have academy, mls directors, college ones, and the semi pro looking for there next players they will show up and did consistently at our kids games in HS.

High school in our section played two game a week like Wednesday and Friday and practiced 2x but the practices where generally not as demanding as club ones for example. The season is condensed but not sure it's any more vs many leagues that play back to back games which is even worse in the fall.  The overuse comes into play when your trying to do HS and club at the same time.  

College plays two days a week just like high school such as friday and Sunday  but they practice more like 4x and the weight room or conditioning. The season is super condensed up into the post season but at least there are brakes in between but the travel can be demanding with the academic course work that still has be done on the road.  Not sure how many professors will move tests or due dates around to accommodate athletes.  Sure the athletic Dept provides a form letter you can give out but that necessarily does'nt mean you get any automatic special accommodations.   

Far as I know club soccer is the only one that does the back to be back games outside of tournaments.


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## lafalafa (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Come on, Dude is obviously talking about decision making.  Therefore, y’all are deluded if you think the decision making displayed in college soccer is better than what 12 year olds can do.


Our 12yr old son had decient decision making for a player in the ussda league and has called into the training center couple times at u13 and beyond.   He lacked the experience and would makes mistakes like all the rest of those players regularly did.  Flashes of brilliance but consistently for the whole game was lacking at times.

As a college player his awareness and decision making is almost spot on for entire 90 minutes, very few to practically no mistakes at all.  Some of his u12 coaches are still around and they have come to some of the his games and been happy to see his progress.  Same with some of the team mates, he would laugh at you at the thought of comparing him now to his U12 self just saying.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Come on, Dude is obviously talking about decision making.  Therefore, y’all are deluded if you think the decision making displayed in college soccer is better than what 12 year olds can do.


You have no clue what you are talking about.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Our 12yr old son had decient decision making for a player in the ussda league and has called into the training center couple times at u13 and beyond.   He lacked the experience and would makes mistakes like all the rest of those players regularly did.  Flashes of brilliance but consistently for the whole game was lacking at times.
> 
> As a college player his awareness and decision making is almost spot on for entire 90 minutes, very few to practically no mistakes at all.  Some of his u12 coaches are still around and they have come to some of the his games and been happy to see his progress.  Same with some of the team mates, he would laugh at you at the thought of comparing him now to his U12 self just saying.


I think your son is the exception to the rule.  

I think college soccer is mostly turbo transitional soccer because many players lack basic fundamentals and decision making.  I can’t stomach watching a male or female college game longer than 10 minutes because it’s so choppy.  The speed of play and decision making is horrific in college.  But club players will finally get to develop more athletically like they would have in HS if they were All Americans which is the benefit of college soccer to me-athletic development.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> You have no clue what you are talking about.


Please give your detailed expert opinion as to why I’m wrong.  I don’t mind being proved wrong.  I’m waiting.


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## outside! (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> HS soccer is not worse than club if the appropriate metric is used.  The appropriate metric is speed of play and decision making; please elaborate as to why you think the speed of play and decision making in club soccer is superior to HS?


DD said of HS soccer, "a waist high ball 5 yards away from you counts as a pass". The players know what is better soccer and they know much more than you or I.


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## outside! (Oct 5, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I think your son is the exception to the rule.
> 
> I think college soccer is mostly turbo transitional soccer because many players lack basic fundamentals and decision making.  I can’t stomach watching a male or female college game longer than 10 minutes because it’s so choppy.  The speed of play and decision making is horrific in college.  But club players will finally get to develop more athletically like they would have in HS if they were All Americans which is the benefit of college soccer to me-athletic development.


College soccer is choppy partially because the players are getting used to a faster speed of play than HS and club soccer. You can see the ideas at times, but often the execution is slightly off.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

outside! said:


> DD said of HS soccer, "a waist high ball 5 yards away from you counts as a pass". The players know what is better soccer and they know much more than you or I.


No sir.  Your daughter has never played professionally or practiced with a professional team.  I have observed my kid develop in a professional environment over the last 10 years.  Many of my players friends parents are professional first team team soccer players; Edgar Castillo was in the USMNT pool for reference.

I get that HS ball is bad…but, my point is that club soccer is equally bad because the emphasis is wrong.  To me, it appears the emphasis in club soccer is to over dribble and do dumb shit when the emphasis should be on the speed of play and decision making.  Therefore, you are making a distinction without a difference because over dribbling and bad decision making are not the skills that make an elite player.


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## MacDre (Oct 5, 2021)

outside! said:


> College soccer is choppy partially because the players are getting used to a faster speed of play than HS and club soccer. You can see the ideas at times, but often the execution is slightly off.


No.  Running faster is actually a slow speed of play.  The ball is faster than any human.  Lots of low level transitional play and fast running in college.  The problem once again is that players lack basic fundamentals and can’t move the ball fast.

I guarantee you can’t post a college game male or female displaying a fast speed of play!


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## timbuck (Oct 5, 2021)

If the end game for the majority of (female) youth players is to play in college-  And the college game is full of kickball playing fast sprinting horses-  Why do we think that "high level" clubs will not recruit and product kickball playing, fast sprinting horses?


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## Grace T. (Oct 5, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> There’s some great high school soccer games that I’ve seen.   However, most of  them (boys) is typically run and gun style.      There’s no way that a high  school coach can develop a player when soccer is only a 3 month season sport.     Development happens at the coach level at the younger age.   Development happens with parents taking kids to do futsal, private lessons, and kids that take time to do some passing drills against a wall at home.
> High school soccer is fun to watch but you are not going to see great technical skills from the entire team.


Somewhat of a tangent, but can I ask the contrast with American gridiron football?  The coaches there don't have much more time (over the summer a little) and though it's changing, the younger ages don't really have club...just peewee football and rec flag football.  Is it just that American gridiron football is more simple to learn than association football?  Is it that it's a male only sport and therefore just more rooted in brute force.

Basketball is also interesting.  Most of the recruitment takes place still in high school.  But it's also true that high school cannot teach (given the short season) the player the necessary skills.  So basketball has developed a growing and very rigorous club season, but one that is focused on preparing players to play high school.  It's still possible if you ball in the barrio or hood to learn those skills playing pickup games.  But increasingly athletes are relying on early professional training (like in association football) and we have facilities rising up like Kobe Bryant's Mamba.  Still, despite the early training and clubs, clubs are subsidiary to high school which is where the recruitment takes place.  I wonder why soccer didn't follow that model?

I know why club soccer arose as an organization...it was because AYSO and rec soccer (much like rec basketball) failed players that were seeking to develop and rather than tier them had everyone play together (which didn't develop the advanced players and frustrated the slower ones).  But it doesn't explain why, like basketball, that mantle isn't passed to high school once they hit that age.  Maybe basketball will eventually become entirely club based like soccer?

Interestingly water polo, lacrosse, competitive swim, and even competitive band follow a similar model (early private and club training but the clubs aren't as deep in high school except as a support and training mechanism for the high school season).  Gymnastics seems to be closer to the soccer model.  Cheer I'm not sure about, nor baseball (with which the decline of the minor leagues has also changed somewhat).

Why is soccer this unicorn?  I'm genuinely curious in people's opinion.


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## BIGD (Oct 5, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> You are deluded if you think your 12 year old is playing a similar level of soccer as D1.


From a technical ability, speed of play and decision making, the match I watched was totally on par with the kids I see playing top level club soccer.  Some of which will move on to MLS academies and are getting national team camp invites in the next year.

Are there some D1 teams that might be better than I saw?  Sure.  Recently a coach I know shed some insight that the best soccer players today either attempt the professional path and bypass the college route all together or don’t have the grades and test scores to get accepted into a D1 school.  So college players today are more of the best students that also play soccer, versus the best youth soccer players.


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## lafalafa (Oct 5, 2021)

timbuck said:


> If the end game for the majority of (female) youth players is to play in college-  And the college game is full of kickball playing fast sprinting horses-  Why do we think that "high level" clubs will not recruit and product kickball playing, fast sprinting horses?


Soccer is a sport where players are constantly running for X minutes.  I'm not understanding how going slower might help what?

Player run what  70 % of the actual minutes of the game,  what should be different?

More passing the ball around, ticky tacky style or what actually should be different?

Maybe I'm bias since our son's where blessed with speed,  daughter just above average but she has a good engine and stamina.  Conditioning and being able to main that speed the whole 90 well that's a gift that only the youngest was able to maintain or surpass at the college level.


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## Larzby (Oct 5, 2021)

Serious trolling going on here.  Hopefully people here can see it for what it is and ignore it.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Interestingly water polo, lacrosse, competitive swim, and even competitive band follow a similar model (early private and club training but the clubs aren't as deep in high school except as a support and training mechanism for the high school season).  Gymnastics seems to be closer to the soccer model.  Cheer I'm not sure about, nor baseball (with which the decline of the minor leagues has also changed somewhat).
> 
> Why is soccer this unicorn?  I'm genuinely curious in people's opinion.


Great point that you make.   I think Basketball and Baseball are becoming(Maybe it's already there) similar to Soccer.   The other difference is that at the college level, soccer teams consist of players from all over the world (D1).   There's not too many countries playing Football so the talent pool comes from the USA mostly.      Ideally (Not possible anytime soon) it would be great to see club soccer end by 10th grade and let high school soccer run the program to allow ALL players to be scouted by colleges

 For boys, we still need academies for those going pro  but not 15 to 20  academies in one region.


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 6, 2021)

timbuck said:


> If the end game for the majority of (female) youth players is to play in college-  And the college game is full of kickball playing fast sprinting horses-  Why do we think that "high level" clubs will not recruit and product kickball playing, fast sprinting horses?


I don't want to speak for him but this may be at the heart of what @MacDre is saying and he doesn't see this as elite soccer. As "just a dad", my opinion is that to reach the technical level to play with the kind of one-touches displayed in Mac's video, it takes MUCH more focused work than what girls could possibly get in their formal training - assuming their formal training even focuses on these skills. One bad touch in the middle of the field and the ball is coming back at you in a hurry. Teams that attempt to play this way without the appropriate technical level get punished quickly. As @Grace T. stated in another post (more or less) goals in soccer are often due to mistakes with the ball.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

Larzby said:


> Serious trolling going on here.  Hopefully people here can see it for what it is and ignore it.


Stop the name calling.  If you have something of value to contribute then present your information.  Otherwise, you and your fanboys are throwing shade.

I’m not trolling.  I’m putting my thoughts out in the open.  Please feel free to critique.

As mentioned up thread, I’m a basketball dude.  In talking to friends and family I have noticed there are lots of problems with AAU basketball and I see the same problems in club soccer but folks ain’t talking it.  Here ya go:








						Steve Kerr’s Thoughts on “Counterproductive” AAU Culture
					

An image of Coach of the Year Steve Kerr with the following quote about AAU basketball, from a…



					ballislife.com


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I don't want to speak for him but this may be at the heart of what @MacDre is saying and he doesn't see this as elite soccer. As "just a dad", my opinion is that to reach the technical level to play with the kind of one-touches displayed in Mac's video, it takes MUCH more focused work than what girls could possibly get in their formal training - assuming their formal training even focuses on these skills. One bad touch in the middle of the field and the ball is coming back at you in a hurry. Teams that attempt to play this way without the appropriate technical level get punished quickly. As @Grace T. stated in another post (more or less) goals in soccer are often due to mistakes with the ball.


You got it!  But I’ll take it a step further and say that our attitudes in regards to women soccer make us collectively look like idiots abroad.  We walk around and pound our chest about being the champs at women’s soccer, and the world is laughing at us because they don’t care about women’s sports to the extent that we do.  Now, that women’s sports are becoming more competitive internationally we are too arrogant and stupid to focus on fundamentals.  Instead, we keep bragging about winning championships that absolutely no one cared about.

I’m embarrassed and we need to do better collectively.


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## outside! (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> No sir.  Your daughter has never played professionally or practiced with a professional team.  I have observed my kid develop in a professional environment over the last 10 years.  Many of my players friends parents are professional first team team soccer players; Edgar Castillo was in the USMNT pool for reference.
> 
> I get that HS ball is bad…but, my point is that club soccer is equally bad because the emphasis is wrong.  To me, it appears the emphasis in club soccer is to over dribble and do dumb shit when the emphasis should be on the speed of play and decision making.  Therefore, you are making a distinction without a difference because over dribbling and bad decision making are not the skills that make an elite player.


I completely agree that over dribbling and making bad decisions are problems in US club and college soccer. But Mexican professional soccer has a huge problem with over dribbling and making poor decisions also. Mexico was one of the teams I was pulling for in the last men's WC and over dribbling and poor passes were the main thing that knocked them out.

I have seen quality one and two touch passing sequences in college games, but only for brief periods.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

BIGD said:


> From a technical ability, speed of play and decision making, the match I watched was totally on par with the kids I see playing top level club soccer.  Some of which will move on to MLS academies and are getting national team camp invites in the next year.
> 
> Are there some D1 teams that might be better than I saw?  Sure.  Recently a coach I know shed some insight that the best soccer players today either attempt the professional path and bypass the college route all together or don’t have the grades and test scores to get accepted into a D1 school.  So college players today are more of the best students that also play soccer, versus the best youth soccer players.


Are you talking men's or womens's soccer?  If men's I can agree with some of your points.  But for women all of the D1 schools are made up of the top youth players who certainly have gotten better since they were young girls. Maybe two or three pro women soccer players in the US have bypassed college soccer.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

outside! said:


> I completely agree that over dribbling and making bad decisions are problems in US club and college soccer. But Mexican professional soccer has a huge problem with over dribbling and making poor decisions also. Mexico was one of the teams I was pulling for in the last men's WC and over dribbling and poor passes were the main thing that knocked them out.
> 
> I have seen quality one and two touch passing sequences in college games, but only for brief periods.


Mexican soccer definitely has it’s problems.  However, in Mexico up until U17 it’s all about basic fundamentals.  The development program throughout Mexico is called Fuerzas Basicas which translates into basic fundamentals.
I’m trying to get the conversation started about what basic fundamentals parents should help their players focus on because many are clearly being misled for financial gain by club soccer.


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> You got it!  But I’ll take it a step further and say that our attitudes in regards to women soccer make us collectively look like idiots abroad.  We walk around and pound our chest about being the champs at women’s soccer, and the world is laughing at us because they don’t care about women’s sports to the extent that we do.  Now, that women’s sports are becoming more competitive internationally we are too arrogant and stupid to focus on fundamentals.  Instead, we keep bragging about winning championships that absolutely no one cared about.
> 
> I’m embarrassed and we need to do better collectively.


It is also my opinion that a significant factor in our womens' dominance of soccer is/was due to the lack of opportunity for girls to play soccer in other countries. In terms of training, I don't really believe there has been a significant difference in the training focus for US girls'/womens' side and US boys'/mens' side and both produce comparable styles of play. I distinctly remember watching the US vs. Mexico men many times and every time coming away thinking the Mexican side had better skills and played more attractive soccer despite the fact that the US won at least as often - playing what I assume you would call "turbo" soccer. It is a reasonable strategy when the other team is more skilled but I feel that style limits a teams' ceiling. I also think it will be difficult to change the approach to training in the US as many of those in charge have only known that style.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> You got it!  But I’ll take it a step further and say that our attitudes in regards to women soccer make us collectively look like idiots abroad.  We walk around and pound our chest about being the champs at women’s soccer, and the world is laughing at us because they don’t care about women’s sports to the extent that we do.  Now, that women’s sports are becoming more competitive internationally we are too arrogant and stupid to focus on fundamentals.  Instead, we keep bragging about winning championships that absolutely no one cared about.
> 
> I’m embarrassed and we need to do better collectively.


The main issue I see is what I call the old ladies of women's soccer.  In order to make any decent money a player needs to be on the National Team and get their stipend.  There are tons of great players graduating from college but there is no path to making money with these older players hanging on for the stipend.   There are maybe 20-30 players that can really get paid.  If they are all young you can get have a good thing run for a few years  but as they get older it is tough for younger players to break in.   Now with the NWSL in turmoil who knows what will happen.


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## Grace T. (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Are you talking men's or womens's soccer?  If men's I can agree with some of your points.  But for women all of the D1 schools are made up of the top youth players who certainly have gotten better since they were young girls. Maybe two or three pro women soccer players in the US have bypassed college soccer.


Yeah, but that's changing in Europe with the extension of the academies to women's play.  

On the men's side, college soccer is actually a detriment to developing professional players.  Subpar training and play for only part of the year.  It's why the flop outs from the academy system in Europe come to play college here (they are off their academic tracks in Europe).

To the extent European women's soccer is becoming more like men's soccer, that's a potential vulnerability for the USWNT.  They'll still have the advantage of a huge base of players (while men's soccer has to compete with football, basketball, baseball and water sports) so they'll always be competitive, but whether they will be as dominant as they have been is an open question.  As a result, you'll have the European, ANZ, and North American team continue to increasingly wipe out the Latin American and Asian teams (with possible exceptions for China and Japan), leading to two tiers effectively of women's soccer.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but that's changing in Europe with the extension of the academies to women's play.
> 
> On the men's side, college soccer is actually a detriment to developing professional players.  Subpar training and play for only part of the year.  It's why the flop outs from the academy system in Europe come to play college here (they are off their academic tracks in Europe).
> 
> To the extent European women's soccer is becoming more like men's soccer, that's a potential vulnerability for the USWNT.  They'll still have the advantage of a huge base of players (while men's soccer has to compete with football, basketball, baseball and water sports) so they'll always be competitive, but whether they will be as dominant as they have been is an open question.  As a result, you'll have the European, ANZ, and North American team continue to increasingly wipe out the Latin American and Asian teams (with possible exceptions for China and Japan), leading to two tiers effectively of women's soccer.


Many of the best foreign women soccer players actually play college soccer in the US.  This past world cup many players from these teams played US college soccer.   These countries view playing D1 as part of their players development.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It is also my opinion that a significant factor in our womens' dominance of soccer is/was due to the lack of opportunity for girls to play soccer in other countries. In terms of training, I don't really believe there has been a significant difference in the training focus for US girls'/womens' side and US boys'/mens' side and both produce comparable styles of play. I distinctly remember watching the US vs. Mexico men many times and every time coming away thinking the Mexican side had better skills and played more attractive soccer despite the fact that the US won at least as often - playing what I assume you would call "turbo" soccer. It is a reasonable strategy when the other team is more skilled but I feel that style limits a teams' ceiling. I also think it will be difficult to change the approach to training in the US as many of those in charge have only known that style.


Spot on.  But I disagree with you categorizing turbo soccer as a legitimate style of play because it’s not.  The clubs are pissing in our faces and calling it rain.  We play the way we play in the US because our players lack basic fundamentals.

I could care less about our style of play.  I want the focus to be on basic fundamentals until U17 and then we can play any style of play that we choose.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> The main issue I see is what I call the old ladies of women's soccer.  In order to make any decent money a player needs to be on the National Team and get their stipend.  There are tons of great players graduating from college but there is no path to making money with these older players hanging on for the stipend.   There are maybe 20-30 players that can really get paid.  If they are all young you can get have a good thing run for a few years  but as they get older it is tough for younger players to break in.   Now with the NWSL in turmoil who knows what will happen.


So sad, but so true.


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## watfly (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Letter leagues and flight 1 soccer are primarily  a sham.  The vast majority of players lack basic fundamentals and are not elite.
> 
> The problems with the lack of rest and recovery stems from coaches having to earn their pay.  There isn’t much development going on in these games as many players lack basic fundamentals.  I understand folks have to make a living so, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


I agree with much you have to say.  The letter leagues are no different from each other, other than the amount of talent they may attract.  I don't know that they are a sham, like many products they overpromise and underdeliver, but that's pretty easy for a parent to figure out after a couple years.  Leagues don't develop players, coaches can, but the only true pathway (despite what clubs and leagues claim) is the talent of your child.  It seems that's the path you're following.  Good luck to you.

I few years ago in the GU17 World Cup the US women had a team comprised of what most people I believe wrongly describe as 1v1 players (I have a completely different expectation of what it means to be a 1v1 player).  Time after time they dribbled straight into pressure.  Not only did they get smoked it was unattractive soccer (not that you get points for style).

Like you, I'm a big proponent of speed of play, soccer IQ emphasis and limited touch soccer.   It's easy for us to be know-it-alls on a forum, but how do we accomplish that?  You can blame the leagues, but I don't know that they are the ones that can solve the problem.  How do you think we solve this problem?  This is not a criticism, but how do you get your daughter to improve her speed of play if she's not playing and having to make decisions in a game like environment?

I haven't read a ton of soccer books, but this is far and away the best book I've ever read.  It's an easy read and is broken down in short concise, chapters.  It's not rocket science, but it has a lot of good nuggets that are easy to apply.




__





						Soccer IQ: Things That Smart Players Do, Vol. 1: Blank, Dan: 9781469982472: Amazon.com: Books
					

Soccer IQ: Things That Smart Players Do, Vol. 1 [Blank, Dan] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Soccer IQ: Things That Smart Players Do, Vol. 1



					www.amazon.com


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> So sad, but so true.


Don't hold Mexico up as a great example of women's soccer.   Remember that goal of the game is to win and they hardly ever do.  But maybe that will change in the future.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Don't hold Mexico up as a great example of women's soccer.   Remember that goal of the game is to win and they hardly ever do.  But maybe that will change in the future.


Mexican soccer has it problems but their training and initial focus on basic fundamentals is vastly superior to what we are doing here.  In other words, if our females had a similar development environment to what Mexican females have now we’d be unbeatable.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

watfly said:


> I agree with much you have to say.  The letter leagues are no different from each other, other than the amount of talent they may attract.  I don't know that they are a sham, like many products they overpromise and underdeliver, but that's pretty easy for a parent to figure out after a couple years.  Leagues don't develop players, coaches can, but the only true pathway (despite what clubs and leagues claim) is the talent of your child.  It seems that's the path you're following.  Good luck to you.
> 
> I few years ago in the GU17 World Cup the US women had a team comprised of what most people I believe wrongly describe as 1v1 players (I have a completely different expectation of what it means to be a 1v1 player).  Time after time they dribbled straight into pressure.  Not only did they get smoked it was unattractive soccer (not that you get points for style).
> 
> ...


Great post and great question.  I guess I’m kinda of cheating because I plan on using my contacts in Mexico to improve my players speed of play and decision making.  I have looked for males and females in my Bay Area community to do rondos etc but there’s a serious lack of interest.  The parents and kids that are interested lack the requisite skillset to be successful so, this process has been very frustrating for me.

For the parents with players 12 and under I recommend Futsal or Rapid Futbol.  But, I noticed when my player played in San Diego at the Futbol Factory that it wasn’t very beneficial because the players from Albion, Rebels, Chula Vista etc. were so used to playing kickball that they always booted the ball when under pressure.  When I talked to the coach and asked him to make the teams pass the ball 5-10 times before they could shoot many players were unsuccessful, lost interest and stop coming to play.

When I was in 5th grade my basketball coach told the team if he spotted us without a basketball at anytime, then the team runs.  So, I ended up dribbling everywhere on all different types of surfaces.  So, I always made my player carry her ball with her.  Going to the grocery store, bring your ball.  Going to Fisherman’s Wharf, bring your ball etc. etc.


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## Carlsbad7 (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Great post and great question.  I guess I’m kinda of cheating because I plan on using my contacts in Mexico to improve my players speed of play and decision making.  I have looked for males and females in my Bay Area community to do rondos etc but there’s a serious lack of interest.  The parents and kids that are interested lack the requisite skillset to be successful so, this process has been very frustrating for me.
> 
> For the parents with players 12 and under I recommend Futsal or Rapid Futbol.  But, I noticed when my player played in San Diego at the Futbol Factory that it wasn’t very beneficial because the players from Albion, Rebels, Chula Vista etc. were so used to playing kickball that they always booted the ball when under pressure.  When I talked to the coach and asked him to make the teams pass the ball 5-10 times before they could shoot many players were unsuccessful, lost interest and stop coming to play.
> 
> When I was in 5th grade my basketball coach told the team if he spotted us without a basketball at anytime, then the team runs.  So, I ended up dribbling everywhere on all different types of surfaces.  So, I always made my player carry her ball with her.  Going to the grocery store, bring your ball.  Going to Fisherman’s Wharf, bring your ball etc. etc.


The reason you're seeing kickball in futsal right now vs triangles is because with Covid teams haven't been playing each other.

Futsal even more than field soccer you'll see the benefits of quick passing vs direct.


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## soccersc (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Spot on.  But I disagree with you categorizing turbo soccer as a legitimate style of play because it’s not.  The clubs are pissing in our faces and calling it rain.  We play the way we play in the US because our players lack basic fundamentals.
> 
> I could care less about our style of play.  I want the focus to be on basic fundamentals until U17 and then we can play any style of play that we choose.


We play, the way we play, in the US because we have been inundated by European coaches.  As club soccer grew in the US, coaches from Europe began to overwhelm the scene....back in the day much of the thought was, English guys knew soccer, and they have cool accents, so they must know what they are talking about.  Well, guess what style of play European guys learned how to play...direct.  Players in Europe had to play direct because field conditions were so bad they couldn't play the ball on the floor, so thus, and ariel, direct attack.  That, with the pressure of having to win has greatly influenced the soccer culture in America and it is going to be very tough to break.  But Pep did a pretty good job of changing it in Europe so who knows.


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## lafalafa (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Great post and great question.  I guess I’m kinda of cheating because I plan on using my contacts in Mexico to improve my players speed of play and decision making.  I have looked for males and females in my Bay Area community to do rondos etc but there’s a serious lack of interest.  The parents and kids that are interested lack the requisite skillset to be successful so, this process has been very frustrating for me.
> 
> For the parents with players 12 and under I recommend Futsal or Rapid Futbol.  But, I noticed when my player played in San Diego at the Futbol Factory that it wasn’t very beneficial because the players from Albion, Rebels, Chula Vista etc. were so used to playing kickball that they always booted the ball when under pressure.  When I talked to the coach and asked him to make the teams pass the ball 5-10 times before they could shoot many players were unsuccessful, lost interest and stop coming to play.
> 
> When I was in 5th grade my basketball coach told the team if he spotted us without a basketball at anytime, then the team runs.  So, I ended up dribbling everywhere on all different types of surfaces.  So, I always made my player carry her ball with her.  Going to the grocery store, bring your ball.  Going to Fisherman’s Wharf, bring your ball etc. etc.


All three of our players played futsal for 1-3 years before even getting on grass pitches.   I just happen to luck into to since the YMCA had program for the kids starting at 4-5.   Funny thing about it is that a owner of some wherehouse space had a kid in the program and he liked it so much decided to open up a indoor facility.  Was just concrete flooring and put in a few goals & some astro mat like turf, the cheap stuff.  Soon learned that wasn't that great and eventually switch to real futsal surface's / tiles.

My youngest son loved that place and played there all the time for a number of years.  They had pickup games so could just drop in.

Like to see more of them but RE is so expensive in some areas not sure if they will again become popular.








						Futsal Courts | Urban Soccer Park
					

Providing safe, durable futsal courts that can be installed almost anywhere—no foundation required. Click here to build your very own futsal court!




					www.urbansoccerpark.com
				




If the schools could invest in them maybe they have will have a better chance but adult pickup can be very popular at those places after work like 6pm+

Futsal is a good game to learn technique, ball control, passing, transition, teamwork, defending.  Can't really hide or just play on one side of the ball need to be good overall.   That's a foundation that players can build on.

When you start out on a bigger fields first it's more about running, the faster the better type of deal. However if you already have the fundamentals down the grass game on the bigger 7 v 7 or 9 v 9 fields come easier for those players.   Every once in a while I still tell my son hey that was a futsal goal, pass or technique like the outside of the foot flicks, scoops or really tight angle stuff he pulls off and people are like where did that come from.

You can play multiple futsal games a day or even back to back without suffering like you can on the bigger fields.  Every player with get more touches and time on the ball but not sure in general if more players enjoy futsal vs regular soccer, seems like the opposite for players at a certain age.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

soccersc said:


> We play, the way we play, in the US because we have been inundated by European coaches.  As club soccer grew in the US, coaches from Europe began to overwhelm the scene....back in the day much of the thought was, English guys knew soccer, and they have cool accents, so they must know what they are talking about.  Well, guess what style of play European guys learned how to play...direct.  Players in Europe had to play direct because field conditions were so bad they couldn't play the ball on the floor, so thus, and ariel, direct attack.  That, with the pressure of having to win has greatly influenced the soccer culture in America and it is going to be very tough to break.  But Pep did a pretty good job of changing it in Europe so who knows.


Good stuff.  But I think US parents of females should loudly protest due to the high risk of ACL injuries too.  It’s hard for me to read the post about players with ACL injuries as it’s very disturbing to me.  

I think taking a “harm reduction” strategy should be a priority to protect our girls too.  The direct play is too dangerous and the risk of injury is too high.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

ACL injuries are brutal for all involved but you can learn from it, recover, and be stronger than ever.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> ACL injuries are brutal for all involved but you can learn from it, recover, and be stronger than ever.


I get it, if it doesn’t kill you, it’ll make you stronger…right?

Well in this situation, I’d say that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## lafalafa (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> ACL injuries are brutal for all involved but you can learn from it, recover, and be stronger than ever.


Much more risks for the females in cutting sports. Playing year round increases those risks but the number of tears seems to peak around age 16 but not sure why?

Something like 6x more risks for ACL injuries for females vs males for HS athletes I recall reading.

Seen two ACL injuries one female and one male in all the years of watching the three players.   I was interested to find out more of these players and the one thing I found out about them is they where almost flat footed.  Both happened while they where running no contact, cut sharply standing upright with leg extended.

There are prevention programs that can decrease the risks a bunch but I've read that the future risks of another ACL problem is  rather high like 10% or something like that for females but I don't remember the exact numbers.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> All three of our players played futsal for 1-3 years before even getting on grass pitches.   I just happen to luck into to since the YMCA had program for the kids starting at 4-5.   Funny thing about it is that a owner of some wherehouse space had a kid in the program and he liked it so much decided to open up a indoor facility.  Was just concrete flooring and put in a few goals & some astro mat like turf, the cheap stuff.  Soon learned that wasn't that great and eventually switch to real futsal surface's / tiles.
> 
> My youngest son loved that place and played there all the time for a number of years.  They had pickup games so could just drop in.
> 
> ...


My limited experience with school districts, shows me that schools are very open to improving their soccer programs.  I think school districts are more concerned with equal access and frown on folks profiting off of kids.

I know this because I tried to complain to my AD, school board, and superintendent about the poor soccer programming.  They agreed, told me that I could use the facilities for free, and are pressuring me to get involved and start ASAP.  They actually followed me to my car and offered me a paid position!!!  

I’m hesitant because I don’t consider myself a soccer guy and selfishly want to spend the last few years of my players development by her side without distraction.  But, I think I might help develop a program in my community in a few years when my player is older.


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## MacDre (Oct 6, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Much more risks for the females in cutting sports. Playing year round increases those risks but the number of tears seems to peak around age 16 but not sure why?
> 
> Something like 6x more risks for ACL injuries for females vs males for HS athletes I recall reading.
> 
> ...


I’ve never met Klay but we are related.  Klay is coming off of an ACL injury probably caused by the hectic NBA schedule.  So, although not as common as the players you described, players with good genetics are at risk too if they don’t cross train.








						Klay kayaks the bay to practice - ESPN Video
					

Klay Thompson is enjoying a kayak out on San Francisco Bay on his way to practice.




					www.espn.com


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## Woodwork (Oct 6, 2021)

At the high school ages, I can predict with a great amount of accuracy which team is going to win by the size of their bench.


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 6, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Spot on.  But I disagree with you categorizing turbo soccer as a legitimate style of play because it’s not.  The clubs are pissing in our faces and calling it rain.  We play the way we play in the US because our players lack basic fundamentals.
> 
> I could care less about our style of play.  I want the focus to be on basic fundamentals until U17 and then we can play any style of play that we choose.


Ha! I say "legitimate" in the sense that a less skilled team can beat a much more technically proficient team with the style. I don't like it either and the early training choices we made with our daughter was to make sure she was comfortable with the ball at her feet. The problem is that teams can win with the turbo style - especially at the youth level. I remember our first ECNL Showcase in Phoenix. We were playing one of the top teams in the age group (U15 IIRC). They started with the ball. After a quick touch to start the game, they kicked the ball deep into their offensive corner and pressured. None of that messy and dangerous passing the ball in the middle of the field. They let us do that. They won. I feel comfortable saying my daughter's team showed better mastery of basic fundamentals but the other team didn't cheat. They just played a style in a way that they were able to overcome whatever technical advantage our girls had. You can blame the coaches for not teaching fundamentals but the coaches have to make a living and they like coaching the best players that they can find and it's difficult to get the "best" players if a coach doesn't win consistently. For many parents, "winning" soccer defines the desired training and style. The dearth of coaches focused on the type of soccer you describe is a testament to the difficulty of winning that way.


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## Simisoccerfan (Oct 6, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Much more risks for the females in cutting sports. Playing year round increases those risks but the number of tears seems to peak around age 16 but not sure why?
> 
> Something like 6x more risks for ACL injuries for females vs males for HS athletes I recall reading.
> 
> ...


I probably personally know more than 10 girls that have had ACL injuries including my own daughter.  Most were non-contact though my daughter's happened from a collision.  There are definitely exercises that can be done to minimize the chance of non-contact injuries but you will always have a risk of contact injuries.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> I probably personally know more than 10 girls that have had ACL injuries including my own daughter.  Most were non-contact though my daughter's happened from a collision.  There are definitely exercises that can be done to minimize the chance of non-contact injuries but you will always have a risk of contact injuries.


My boys had a coach from Argentina.  He made the entire team do 1 hour of yoga/pilates once a week. His players would hardly ever get injuries.    Yoga/stretching is a way to avoid injuries for all ages.


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## SoccerLocker (Oct 6, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> My boys had a coach from Argentina.  He made the entire team do 1 hour of yoga/pilates once a week. His players would hardly ever get injuries.    Yoga/stretching is a way to avoid injuries for all ages.


The gold standard for ACL injury prevention is the PEP program.  Developed in 1984, and ignored ever since...  It emphasizes learning how to land correctly (knees bent) and strengthening the muscles around the knee:  PEP Program


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## BIGD (Oct 6, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> Are you talking men's or womens's soccer?  If men's I can agree with some of your points.  But for women all of the D1 schools are made up of the top youth players who certainly have gotten better since they were young girls. Maybe two or three pro women soccer players in the US have bypassed college soccer.


Men’s soccer as I only have boys playing soccer so can’t speak to the women’s side.  The D1 game I referenced was men’s soccer.


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## lafalafa (Oct 7, 2021)

BIGD said:


> Men’s soccer as I only have boys playing soccer so can’t speak to the women’s side.  The D1 game I referenced was men’s soccer.


I've watched or been to over 100 men's D1 soccer games and the quality and play can vary widely just like it does in every league.  Compared to say  divisions 3 (NISA, USL 2) in men's soccer it's a notch below that in my opinion.

This is last years final


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## timbuck (Oct 7, 2021)

Simisoccerfan said:


> I probably personally know more than 10 girls that have had ACL injuries including my own daughter.  Most were non-contact though my daughter's happened from a collision.  There are definitely exercises that can be done to minimize the chance of non-contact injuries but you will always have a risk of contact injuries.


I hear lots of people say "it was a non-contact injury".  I'm not a doctor, but my suspicion is that overuse, lack of recovery time and the wrong cleats on synthetic surfaces is what leads to a lot of these injuries.
We have 15,16, 17, 18 year old girls playing 2 games in less than 36 hours.  We have them training from 7:30-9:00 pm at club practice. After being at school from 7:30 am until 3pm.  And also having "soccer class" 2 or 3 days a week for their school soccer team (before the actual season starts).


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## MacDre (Oct 7, 2021)

I was reading an article in Soccer America this morning and it appears that Berhalter has similar views as I do on the importance of fast ball movement and decision making:

"There’s three ways to break down an opponent," Berhalter said when the roster for the October window was announced. "You can go around them, you can go through them or you can go behind them. And more often than not in this game, we were trying to go around them, around the sides, and the ball circulation was way too slow. They could just shift and prevent that. What we needed to do was either go behind them … or go between them."

Berhalter said the problems also existed in the opening 0-0 tie at El Salvador, where the USA took a tentative approach:

"There's moments in the El Salvador game we get the ball and there's a ton of space behind the back and we want to pass it to an open player so he can dribble instead of playing behind the line so now that now the opponents in a ton of trouble. We didn't do that well enough."


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## soccersc (Oct 8, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I was reading an article in Soccer America this morning and it appears that Berhalter has similar views as I do on the importance of fast ball movement and decision making:
> 
> "There’s three ways to break down an opponent," Berhalter said when the roster for the October window was announced. "You can go around them, you can go through them or you can go behind them. And more often than not in this game, we were trying to go around them, around the sides, and the ball circulation was way too slow. They could just shift and prevent that. What we needed to do was either go behind them … or go between them."
> 
> ...


He is right...it was way to slow. Problem is when you play possession and teams just sit back, you need to guys to break people down and open them up...the U.S doesn't have guys that can do that...Pulisic, Dest, maybe Weah, and that's about all they got that have that ability.  Look at teams that do well with possession, they all have guys that can get by defenders in the finishing third.  You might be able to keep the ball out of the back and through the middle but you need creative players that the U.S just doesn't have...so it becomes tricky to implement a possession style, but play direct when it is there...Look how they scored the first goal last night against Jamaica....Quick outlet to Dest who dribbled 20 yards, a pass to Mousa who dribbles for 30 yards, back to Dest and a cross with a header, not a possession goal!!!! Second goal was quick as well, no dribbling this time, but 3 passes and from the back and a cross with a finish. 

So, I'm wondering what your views are about the goals, because U.S is never going to be able to score pinging it around the back and trying to circulate the ball, they aren't good enough in the finishing third...they have to play fast and counter quick or they have no chance....if you don't score you cant win!!!!


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## lafalafa (Oct 8, 2021)

soccersc said:


> He is right...it was way to slow. Problem is when you play possession and teams just sit back, you need to guys to break people down and open them up...the U.S doesn't have guys that can do that...Pulisic, Dest, maybe Weah, and that's about all they got that have that ability.  Look at teams that do well with possession, they all have guys that can get by defenders in the finishing third.  You might be able to keep the ball out of the back and through the middle but you need creative players that the U.S just doesn't have...so it becomes tricky to implement a possession style, but play direct when it is there...Look how they scored the first goal last night against Jamaica....Quick outlet to Dest who dribbled 20 yards, a pass to Mousa who dribbles for 30 yards, back to Dest and a cross with a header, not a possession goal!!!! Second goal was quick as well, no dribbling this time, but 3 passes and from the back and a cross with a finish.
> 
> So, I'm wondering what your views are about the goals, because U.S is never going to be able to score pinging it around the back and trying to circulate the ball, they aren't good enough in the finishing third...they have to play fast and counter quick or they have no chance....if you don't score you cant win!!!!


Those goals where like what you might see in a college game but take the 3 points.  Going to qualify at least this time around.

Berhalter was a defender and coaches like one, good team player but pocession or attacking futbol not really his thing.

Jamaican well some great sprinters, runners and good players but long shots now for WC.


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## MacDre (Oct 8, 2021)

soccersc said:


> He is right...it was way to slow. Problem is when you play possession and teams just sit back, you need to guys to break people down and open them up...the U.S doesn't have guys that can do that...Pulisic, Dest, maybe Weah, and that's about all they got that have that ability.  Look at teams that do well with possession, they all have guys that can get by defenders in the finishing third.  You might be able to keep the ball out of the back and through the middle but you need creative players that the U.S just doesn't have...so it becomes tricky to implement a possession style, but play direct when it is there...Look how they scored the first goal last night against Jamaica....Quick outlet to Dest who dribbled 20 yards, a pass to Mousa who dribbles for 30 yards, back to Dest and a cross with a header, not a possession goal!!!! Second goal was quick as well, no dribbling this time, but 3 passes and from the back and a cross with a finish.
> 
> So, I'm wondering what your views are about the goals, because U.S is never going to be able to score pinging it around the back and trying to circulate the ball, they aren't good enough in the finishing third...they have to play fast and counter quick or they have no chance....if you don't score you cant win!!!!


The way the US played and scored yesterday is very acceptable to me.  I’m not advocating for any particular style of play.  I’m advocating for a better emphasis on basic fundamentals.  If a player masters their fundamentals, they can play any and every way.  I think all US players are capable of mastering basic fundamentals.

It’s weird to me, that when I start talking basic fundamentals to folks in the US they automatically think Barcelona.  Any style of play is fine.  

Can somebody please explain why so many in the US soccer ecosystem have no faith in our youths ability to learn basic fundamentals?


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## kickingandscreaming (Oct 8, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Can somebody please explain why so many in the US soccer ecosystem have no faith in our youths ability to learn basic fundamentals?


A long tradition of not emphasizing fundamentals. Seriously, though, don't coaches tend to teach the way they were taught?


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## timbuck (Oct 8, 2021)

> "MacDre said:
> Can somebody please explain why so many in the US soccer ecosystem have no faith in our youths ability to learn basic fundamentals?


A long tradition of not emphasizing fundamentals. Seriously, though, don't coaches tend to teach the way they were taught? "


One of the main reasons we aren't great with fundamentals is that we care too much about winning games at too young of an age. I'm not saying kids shouldn't play to win.  Learning to win is a very important trait.

But we've all witnessed a team playing 7v7 or 9v9 that wins a lot of games, but can't connect 4 passes in a row.  Once a team, coach and parents get a taste for winning every game by 3+ goals-  It's hard to "put the toothpaste back in the tube" and play in a way that might cause some mistakes by playing in tight spaces in your defending third.
Couple that with teams playing games on back to back days and there is little room for "development".
Pretty common example:
Team practices 2x per week for 90 minutes.  10 minutes is a warm up.  15 minutes of unopposed technical skills. 15 minutes of rondos or some sort of small sided game.  A 30 minute "scrimmage" at the end of practice.  10 minutes of water breaks mixed in.  10 minutes of either "sprints" or a shooting/finishing drill.

Team has a game on Saturday and they win 4-1. Everyone is happy.  They have another game the next day at 8 am.  The kids are tired because they woke up at 6:00 am to get to the game by 7:15 to warm up.  Some of them are sore from yesterdays game that ended at 4pm.  Instead of trying to work on a specific game model/style of play - The coach is in survival mode and just wants to finish the weekend with another win.  So they kick everything long.  But it works because they have a kid who was born Jan 1st and is a foot taller than everyone else on the field.

Players go home and don't touch a soccer ball until practice in a few days.  They don't watch any soccer on TV during the week (so they dont even know what "good" soccer looks like).

Another example that hampers overall development:
A kid with good skill and athleticism switches to a new coach every season.  This could be for a variety of reasons:
1. Coach gets fired
2. Club merges with another club and coaches get reassigned.
3. Players parents think other players on the team aren't at the right level of their player.
4. Some other coach makes promises that sound amazing
5. Some "new" league pops up and players shuffle around trying to jockey for "the best league".
6. Parents don't like the way the coach has the team play and wonder "why do they keep passing it backwards"


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## Larzby (Oct 9, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Stop the name calling.  If you have something of value to contribute then present your information.  Otherwise, you and your fanboys are throwing shade.
> 
> I’m not trolling.  I’m putting my thoughts out in the open.  Please feel free to critique.
> 
> ...


Troll


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## Shooting Star (Oct 9, 2021)

timbuck said:


> A long tradition of not emphasizing fundamentals. Seriously, though, don't coaches tend to teach the way they were taught? "
> 
> 
> One of the main reasons we aren't great with fundamentals is that we care too much about winning games at too young of an age. I'm not saying kids shouldn't play to win.  Learning to win is a very important trait.
> ...


So true!


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