# Terrible ECNL Teams/Clubs



## Highlander (Nov 8, 2021)

OK, I'm new to ECNL. I was looking over the SoCal ECNL standings...some teams/clubs are getting CRUSHED! I thought ECNL was about the best. From what I can tell without promotion/relegation its just a league built to make the top clubs look good while they feast on some crapy teams/clubs. I know for a fact there are teams that are better than some of those bottom dwellers in ECNL. They need to stop protecting clubs with the golden hand shake of guaranteed ECNL status. Lot's of good clubs/teams that can give the current ECNL teams better competition. Why can't we come up with a system that makes sense for the players/teams/clubs/parents?

I have to wonder why anyone would want to play for Nevada/Arizona ECNL teams. Why would you spend all that money and time to get CRUSHED! I saw some teams with a -40+ goal differential...consistently those teams come from NV/AZ...mix in a couple CA clubs here and there. So crazy.


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## timbuck (Nov 8, 2021)

Those AZ/NV clubs are likely made up of the best players in those states that CAN AFFORD to play ECNL.  Not cheap to travel for 1/2 of your games. Not cheap to play at that level.  
Both of those states probably have some fantastic players that can't afford the time and expense of playing at that level.
Maybe you can afford it- but you have a job that requires you to work weekends. That's not gonna work because you want to see your kid play.


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## Carlsbad7 (Nov 8, 2021)

Highlander said:


> OK, I'm new to ECNL. I was looking over the SoCal ECNL standings...some teams/clubs are getting CRUSHED! I thought ECNL was about the best. From what I can tell without promotion/relegation its just a league built to make the top clubs look good while they feast on some crapy teams/clubs. I know for a fact there are teams that are better than some of those bottom dwellers in ECNL. They need to stop protecting clubs with the golden hand shake of guaranteed ECNL status. Lot's of good clubs/teams that can give the current ECNL teams better competition. Why can't we come up with a system that makes sense for the players/teams/clubs/parents?
> 
> I have to wonder why anyone would want to play for Nevada/Arizona ECNL teams. Why would you spend all that money and time to get CRUSHED! I saw some teams with a -40+ goal differential...consistently those teams come from NV/AZ...mix in a couple CA clubs here and there. So crazy.


ECNL lower teams (in the Southwest maybe other locations) will start getting better with less competition for players from GA.

However there's always going to be a couple that suck just because they can.


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## whatithink (Nov 8, 2021)

Highlander said:


> OK, I'm new to ECNL. I was looking over the SoCal ECNL standings...some teams/clubs are getting CRUSHED! I thought ECNL was about the best. From what I can tell without promotion/relegation its just a league built to make the top clubs look good while they feast on some crapy teams/clubs. I know for a fact there are teams that are better than some of those bottom dwellers in ECNL. They need to stop protecting clubs with the golden hand shake of guaranteed ECNL status. Lot's of good clubs/teams that can give the current ECNL teams better competition. Why can't we come up with a system that makes sense for the players/teams/clubs/parents?
> 
> I have to wonder why anyone would want to play for Nevada/Arizona ECNL teams. Why would you spend all that money and time to get CRUSHED! I saw some teams with a -40+ goal differential...consistently those teams come from NV/AZ...mix in a couple CA clubs here and there. So crazy.


I would say

You should discount U13/14 - IMO there should only be in state / local for these and allow those kids to develop. Large numbers of these kids will be gone / replaced with "late" developers.
ECNL SW is too big which dilutes the talent pool. AZ can't produce 4 quality teams at every age group (3 ECNL & 1 GA), so every team hurts to some extent. In NV, Heat is no longer the only show in town. SoCal doesn't have 13 elite teams per age group either. Based on PPG across all 17 teams.
U18-19 the bottom 5 teams are from SoCal. Only one AZ/NV team has a negative GD (its -1)
U17 the bottom 3 teams are from SoCal. Heat at #4, AZ 9/14/15
U16 AZ & NV teams are weak. I know AZ is not strong generally for 06s. No idea why.
U15 AZ are ranked 10/12/17, NV is 16.

The point about who can afford to play is pertinent. 
Lastly, these teams match up well against plenty of teams across the country. SoCal is very strong and the top 3/4 teams per age group would blow away the majority of ECNL teams nationally. I have no doubt that the lower teams in SoCal would be very strong in many ECNL regions, they are fortunate though to be in SoCal. College coaches (which is the only point) know this and so the kids from all these teams get college opportunities.


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## SoccerLocker (Nov 8, 2021)

DA admitted girls in 2017, and some strong ECNL teams moved over.  ECNL replaced them with other clubs (who tried but weren't admitted in prior years).  Now DA is gone and ECNL faces a problem:  Let those DA teams come back, and you have pretty obvious haves and have nots.  Keep them out and you allow a competitor league to compete.

3 new ECNL teams this year, all were prior DA teams:  Beach and Legends rank top 5 across the board, while Royals is middle of the pack.  All are ahead of their geographical rivals.

Eventually ECNL will probably go to a pro/rel approach with ECRL, but I think the existence of GA will keep them from doing it for now.


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## Desert Hound (Nov 8, 2021)

SoccerLocker said:


> Eventually ECNL will probably go to a pro/rel approach with ECRL, but I think the existence of GA will keep them from doing it for now.


Not sure how they do that unless they have different clubs in ecRL vs ECNL. Because if you relegate a club from ECNL to ecRL who fills the spot? An ecRL team from a club already in ECNL? I doubt 2nd teams in the top division creates a good image of a top league.


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## Desert Hound (Nov 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> AZ can't produce 4 quality teams at every age group (3 ECNL & 1 GA), so every team hurts to some extent.


I think going forward it really is 3 teams. It seems already at the youngest ages...ie the last 2 age groups, the players are not going to del Sol. 

Can Phx area handle 3 teams? Possibly. It has the same population as the San Diego metro area. Time will tell on that however.


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## SoccerLocker (Nov 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure how they do that unless they have different clubs in ecRL vs ECNL. Because if you relegate a club from ECNL to ecRL who fills the spot? An ecRL team from a club already in ECNL? I doubt 2nd teams in the top division creates a good image of a top league.


I think they drop the entire club down, not individual ages.  Your top teams would be in ECRL across the board.  Just like what Beach and Legends did last year and Pats is doing this year.


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## dad4 (Nov 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure how they do that unless they have different clubs in ecRL vs ECNL. Because if you relegate a club from ECNL to ecRL who fills the spot? An ecRL team from a club already in ECNL? I doubt 2nd teams in the top division creates a good image of a top league.


Easy.  You don’t call it a second team.  

You split it geographically.  

Eclipse.  Eclipse North.
PDA Blue.  PDA South.

Or just give them two names:

Real Co.  Real Co Athletico.
FC Stars Blue.  FC Stars White.
Mighican Hawks.  Michigan Hawks Magic.
SLSG Green. SLSG White.
Concorde Fire Platinum.  Concorde Fire Premier.

Or, if you can, split it geographically and by name:

Sting Dallas Black.  Sting Dallas Royal.  Sting Austin.

Agree it doesn’t do much for appearances, but we seem pretty far down this road already.


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## LVB (Nov 9, 2021)

timbuck said:


> Those AZ/NV clubs are likely made up of the best players in those states that CAN AFFORD to play ECNL.  Not cheap to travel for 1/2 of your games. Not cheap to play at that level.
> Both of those states probably have some fantastic players that can't afford the time and expense of playing at that level.
> Maybe you can afford it- but you have a job that requires you to work weekends. That's not gonna work because you want to see your kid play.


I’m going to have to respectfully disagree in regards to NV. Pleanty of talented players spread out and they can afford it! . Heat is the only ecnl sanctioned club out here and have a monopoly on it. Our dd is U-13 and we are going to follow the coaching and continuous development over a patch on her jersey at this age. If we lived in Cali it would be different since there are so many ecnl options she would be able to pursue. If she is still playing out here at a top level when she is 15 or 16 then we will see what the pathway looks like at that point.


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## Highlander (Nov 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> You should discount U13/14 - IMO there should only be in state / local for these and allow those kids to develop. Large numbers of these kids will be gone / replaced with "late" developers.


This is interesting. What's your experience on the typical team turnover between U13 to U15?


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## SoccerLocker (Nov 9, 2021)

LVB said:


> I’m going to have to respectfully disagree in regards to NV. Pleanty of talented players spread out and they can afford it! . Heat is the only ecnl sanctioned club out here and have a monopoly on it. Our dd is U-13 and we are going to follow the coaching and continuous development over a patch on her jersey at this age. If we lived in Cali it would be different since there are so many ecnl options she would be able to pursue. If she is still playing out here at a top level when she is 15 or 16 then we will see what the pathway looks like at that point.


Heat suffers at the younger ages (Last or next to last in youngest 3 age groups), but are increasingly competitive in HS years (Their 05 team is very good).  There doesn't seem to be any pressure/advantage to join early.  Does being the only ECNL club actually hurt them due to lack of competition with other clubs (i.e. they are inflexible)?


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## whatithink (Nov 9, 2021)

Highlander said:


> This is interesting. What's your experience on the typical team turnover between U13 to U15?


U13/14 are 12/13 year olds, with teams heavily weighted towards early (physical) developers. That evens out from U15 onwards and so roster changes reduce over time.


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## Messi>CR7 (Nov 9, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure how they do that unless they have different clubs in ecRL vs ECNL. Because if you relegate a club from ECNL to ecRL who fills the spot? An ecRL team from a club already in ECNL? I doubt 2nd teams in the top division creates a good image of a top league.


Conspiracy theory-based promotion:  Big club(s) get another team in ECNL through some one-off deal like Eclipse, PDA, etc.

Merit-based promotion:  Slammers get a 3rd team and/or Blues get a 2nd team.


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## LVB (Nov 9, 2021)

SoccerLocker said:


> Heat suffers at the younger ages (Last or next to last in youngest 3 age groups), but are increasingly competitive in HS years (Their 05 team is very good).  There doesn't seem to be any pressure/advantage to join early.  Does being the only ECNL club actually hurt them due to lack of competition with other clubs (i.e. they are inflexible)?


They seem to be getting less competitive every year and struggling again this season. To answer your question I would venture off to say they are not willing to compromise but that is pure speculation.

Heat FC ECNL Girls
U-13
0-7-1
GF- 4
GA- 30

U-14
0-6-2
GF- 1
GA- 27

U-15
1-7-0
GF- 8
GA- 36

U-16
2-4-1
GF- 12
GA- 18

U-17
5-1-2
GF- 18
GA- 12

U-18/19
4-3-1
GF- 12
GA- 10


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## GT45 (Nov 9, 2021)

I am a believer that ECNL should not have U13 teams (and maybe even U14). Parents do not need to spend that money at that age. For most of the country ECNL clubs travel way more than So Cal. So this is really a belief based more on the rest of the country than our conference.


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## what-happened (Nov 9, 2021)

GT45 said:


> I am a believer that ECNL should not have U13 teams (and maybe even U14). Parents do not need to spend that money at that age. For most of the country ECNL clubs travel way more than So Cal. So this is really a belief based more on the rest of the country than our conference.


In total agreement.  The expectation to win based on the dollars spent drives the train.  More time is spent on winning (or trying to win) than teaching players how to play the game.  There is a big difference between a U13 player and a U15 player, so much happens in those years.


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## soccer4us (Nov 9, 2021)

Put Heat in 70 percent of divisions across the country, it would be a different look. Without having direct knowledge of what happens there, we have to respect and understand how damn good the California  divisions are compared to most divisions across the country.


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## myself (Nov 9, 2021)

GT45 said:


> I am a believer that ECNL should not have U13 teams (and maybe even U14). Parents do not need to spend that money at that age. For most of the country ECNL clubs travel way more than So Cal. So this is really a belief based more on the rest of the country than our conference.


ECNL at U13/14 is a big money grab that is more closely aligned with the old school-year age groupings, and also the old NCAA recruiting rules. If 8th graders were being made offers, then sure U14 serves a purpose. With the new rules U14 and U13 are practically pointle$$. But guess what, I paid $$$ for that dumb crap just like some of you reading this


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## whatithink (Nov 9, 2021)

myself said:


> ECNL at U13/14 is a big money grab that is more closely aligned with the old school-year age groupings, and also the old NCAA recruiting rules. If 8th graders were being made offers, then sure U14 serves a purpose. With the new rules U14 and U13 are practically pointle$$. But guess what, I paid $$$ for that dumb crap just like some of you reading this


GDA brought in U13 to grab kids early so ECNL countered. U15 should be the first year, prepping kids for the U16 year when they are Sophmores and coaches are looking. Anyone doing showcases prior to then is being used as a marketing vehicle and money pit for coach/club egos.


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## dad4 (Nov 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> GDA brought in U13 to grab kids early so ECNL countered. U15 should be the first year, prepping kids for the U16 year when they are Sophmores and coaches are looking. Anyone doing showcases prior to then is being used as a marketing vehicle and money pit for coach/club egos.


I think “showcase” just means a tournament-like event with one game per day and no standings.

Parents of 12 year olds do not expect to see college coaches at these things.  It’s just a mini-tournament.  No one is fooled.


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## crush (Nov 10, 2021)

whatithink said:


> GDA brought in U13 to grab kids early so ECNL countered. U15 should be the first year, prepping kids for the U16 year when they are Sophmores and coaches are looking. Anyone doing showcases prior to then is being used as a marketing vehicle and money pit for coach/club egos.


Oh boy do I remember that toxic mess of a shit show in Socal we all have participated in last 5 years.  Like I said a million times before, I knew we were in a big bait & switch liars clubs when my dd was 7th grade and going to 8th grade.  I was sold U14 National Team and Pro ((They said college soccer was horrible and the GDA was here to pave a new way.  Trust me, this was sold first to me)).  However, what was really being offered all along was college.  My kid was scolded for not having her homework in 7th grade and was told to get her emails sent to practice for future calls by big time D1 coaches)).  Plus OM signed in 6th grade and we were told to email now before the new rules kick in.  I said no way, were here for the real prize.  This is whack!!!


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## what-happened (Nov 10, 2021)

whatithink said:


> GDA brought in U13 to grab kids early so ECNL countered. U15 should be the first year, prepping kids for the U16 year when they are Sophmores and coaches are looking. Anyone doing showcases prior to then is being used as a marketing vehicle and money pit for coach/club egos.


I need to look (if it's even still up) but I'm pretty sure the GDA's initially had 3 age groups (U14/15, U16/17, and U18/19).  The boys side started at U12.

I'm sure that eventually we would have seen an expansion that mirrored the boys side.  Of course we'll never know.


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## crush (Nov 10, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I need to look (if it's even still up) but I'm pretty sure the GDA's initially had 3 age groups (U14/15, U16/17, and U18/19).  The boys side started at U12.
> 
> I'm sure that eventually we would have seen an expansion that mirrored the boys side.  Of course we'll never know.


GDA came out like you said originally.  However, the top 04s were getting recruited hard to play up with the 03s GDA and started leaving a few of the clubs that daddy controlled and they added 04 last minute, so daddy's could be on top.  Trust me, we were sold ECNL first as 04s and then the next year we would play GDA.  I have it all documented and all the text and emails.  Time line so to speak


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## Desert Hound (Nov 10, 2021)

myself said:


> ECNL at U13/14 is a big money grab that is more closely aligned with the old school-year age groupings, and also the old NCAA recruiting rules. If 8th graders were being made offers, then sure U14 serves a purpose. With the new rules U14 and U13 are practically pointle$$. But guess what, I paid $$$ for that dumb crap just like some of you reading this


I paid for it as well. It is easier to get on and stay on a team when you start off at that age group. It is harder to break in at a later age. Granted I see kids coming in, but it is harder for them vs getting in at the start.


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## VegasParent (Nov 10, 2021)

soccer4us said:


> Put Heat in 70 percent of divisions across the country, it would be a different look. Without having direct knowledge of what happens there, we have to respect and understand how damn good the California  divisions are compared to most divisions across the country.


Maybe that's true for the 03/04 and 05 teams but the 06 - 09 teams are average or worse.


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## Code (Nov 10, 2021)

I can't see how a league (ECNL), can claim to be about bringing the best of the best together without promotion and relegation of individual teams.  Don't get me wrong, the top 20% of the ECNL teams are no doubt the best there are, but the remainder of the ECNL teams are arguably no better than the top teams in local leagues.  What I see in ECNL is the Best and Everyone else, just like the OP pointed out.  This is because the teams that are not up to standards are not relegated each season, and at the same time, great teams are not allowed into the league because of Club requirements, or there are already multiple teams in the region, or the club already has a team in the league.  Promotion and Relegation in the current ECNL structure is impossible because of the Club requirements to field teams across all age groups.  The ECNL system is flawed and can not claim to have the "Best" if it handicaps the competition through regional distribution limitations within divisions or other metrics that are not based on actual team performance.  The best means you play teams that are the best, regardless of where they are or are not located, or how a Club's other teams performed in a separate age group, or ....  If most of the best teams are in the same areas, then so be it.  The match results speak for themself; it is not a balanced league of comparable talent.


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## futboldad1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Code said:


> I can't see how a league (ECNL), can claim to be about bringing the best of the best together without promotion and relegation of individual teams.  Don't get me wrong, the top 20% of the ECNL teams are no doubt the best there are, but the remainder of the ECNL teams are arguably no better than the top teams in local leagues.  What I see in ECNL is the Best and Everyone else, just like the OP pointed out.  This is because the teams that are not up to standards are not relegated each season, and at the same time, great teams are not allowed into the league because of Club requirements, or there are already multiple teams in the region, or the club already has a team in the league.  Promotion and Relegation in the current ECNL structure is impossible because of the Club requirements to field teams across all age groups.  The ECNL system is flawed and can not claim to have the "Best" if it handicaps the competition through regional distribution limitations within divisions or other metrics that are not based on actual team performance.  The best means you play teams that are the best, regardless of where they are or are not located, or how a Club's other teams performed in a separate age group, or ....  If most of the best teams are in the same areas, then so be it.  The match results speak for themself; it is not a balanced league of comparable talent.


The reality is that the bottom 80% of ECNL teams would still easily beat the top teams in local leagues despite what those teams coaches and parents like to think and say.....everyone gets carried away winning SCDSL discovery games 5-0 every week and thinks it offers any insight as to how that team would do versus a middle standings ECNL team which would give them a rude awakening....


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## SoccerFan4Life (Nov 10, 2021)

MLS next took the life out of the ECNL boys program.  

It’s now just a matter of time for clubs to start aligning themselves with the women’s soccer league to give a path for young girls looking to go pro (not worth the salary). This will water down the ECNL womens program. All that will be left are those players looking to go for a scholarships for D1/D2.


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## Desert Hound (Nov 10, 2021)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> MLS next took the life out of the ECNL boys program.
> 
> It’s now just a matter of time for clubs to start aligning themselves with the women’s soccer league to give a path for young girls looking to go pro (not worth the salary). This will water down the ECNL womens program. All that will be left are those players looking to go for a scholarships for D1/D2.


Probably some time before that happens. NWSL needs to be able to really stand on their own feet before they can realistically start something like MLS Next.


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## timmyh (Nov 10, 2021)

Code said:


> I can't see how a league (ECNL), can claim to be about bringing the best of the best together without promotion and relegation of individual teams.  Don't get me wrong, the top 20% of the ECNL teams are no doubt the best there are, but the remainder of the ECNL teams are arguably no better than the top teams in local leagues.  What I see in ECNL is the Best and Everyone else, just like the OP pointed out.  This is because the teams that are not up to standards are not relegated each season, and at the same time, great teams are not allowed into the league because of Club requirements, or there are already multiple teams in the region, or the club already has a team in the league.  Promotion and Relegation in the current ECNL structure is impossible because of the Club requirements to field teams across all age groups.  The ECNL system is flawed and can not claim to have the "Best" if it handicaps the competition through regional distribution limitations within divisions or other metrics that are not based on actual team performance.  The best means you play teams that are the best, regardless of where they are or are not located, or how a Club's other teams performed in a separate age group, or ....  If most of the best teams are in the same areas, then so be it.  The match results speak for themself; it is not a balanced league of comparable talent.


You are correct.  However, the benefit of pro/rel is more than offset by the enormous advantage that the simple effectiveness of ECNL gameday provides.  All the top teams from one club playing all the top teams from another.  If you go pro/rel, then scheduling is a mess and each weekend is a one-off game and coaches that manage multiple teams may have one team in Vegas, and one in San Diego, etc.

Pro/Rel only works at the youth level if all teams are basically in the same area and can pretty much all play at the same fields every weekend.  Pro/Rel would only work for a regional league like ECNL (where road trips are the norm) if entire clubs are promoted and relegated, not individual teams.  The other problem with pro/rel of entire clubs, is the best ECRL club isn't really a whole lot better than the worst ECNL club, and the player defections from a relegated club would be devastating.  As would the influx of new players to a promoted club that will just knock off the girls who helped earn the promotion.

Basically, our current system isn't going anywhere anytime soon.


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## soccerfan123 (Nov 10, 2021)

with the GDA collapsing there was lot of talent migration all to the Ecnl. This also meant lot of POd parents whos kids found the demands too high once the talent got consolidated to one league or got cut. oldest dd is 2004 prev da and she loves the challenge each weekend. she plays for an oc club but look at a club like rebels, they have really filled out in the older ages with Albion kids and give everyone a game now. even dmvc are making moves all be it slowly. discovery teams families should ask their coach to line up some scrimmages in spring with Ecnl teams and see how it goes. it'll be a good experience for your dd and an eye opener for you parents who like to throw shade at kids testing themselves in Ecnl to prepare for college ball


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## Desert Hound (Nov 10, 2021)

soccerfan123 said:


> with the GDA collapsing there was lot of talent migration all to the Ecnl.


This may explain the lack of any discussion on these forums about GA. There hasn't been any chatter in that forum outside of some guy thinking his kids DPL team could roll through the ECNL.


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## dad4 (Nov 10, 2021)

timmyh said:


> You are correct.  However, the benefit of pro/rel is more than offset by the enormous advantage that the simple effectiveness of ECNL gameday provides.  All the top teams from one club playing all the top teams from another.  If you go pro/rel, then scheduling is a mess and each weekend is a one-off game and coaches that manage multiple teams may have one team in Vegas, and one in San Diego, etc.
> 
> Pro/Rel only works at the youth level if all teams are basically in the same area and can pretty much all play at the same fields every weekend.  Pro/Rel would only work for a regional league like ECNL (where road trips are the norm) if entire clubs are promoted and relegated, not individual teams.  The other problem with pro/rel of entire clubs, is the best ECRL club isn't really a whole lot better than the worst ECNL club, and the player defections from a relegated club would be devastating.  As would the influx of new players to a promoted club that will just knock off the girls who helped earn the promotion.
> 
> Basically, our current system isn't going anywhere anytime soon.


I agree it isn’t changing, but I don’t see scheduling as the main barrier.   Designing it from the ground up, you wouldn’t have 100 travel teams per age group.  You’d have about 20-30 travel teams.  The rest of the teams aren’t good enough to bother travelling.

Which is the core of the problem.  Most of these teams are not worth the trip.


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