# new 'keeper with lots of questions  So



## multisportson (Jul 21, 2018)

hello!  My '06 son has decided this week to quit his other club sport (ice hockey), and to play keeper full time.  He missed most of last soccer season with a heel injury (made it back in time for state cup), and played part-time the year prior.  So, have we missed the boat for try-outs?  At his age, do teams even want a second 'keeper? Thanks!


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## Mystery Train (Jul 21, 2018)

multisportson said:


> hello!  My '06 son has decided this week to quit his other club sport (ice hockey), and to play keeper full time.  He missed most of last soccer season with a heel injury (made it back in time for state cup), and played part-time the year prior.  So, have we missed the boat for try-outs?  At his age, do teams even want a second 'keeper? Thanks!


Teams are always looking for keepers!  At all age groups.  Some coaches are very particular about only carrying one full time keeper, others insist on having 2.  

It's past tryout time, but that makes no difference at all.  (Pro tip: tryouts are for suckers.   Don't even bother with  "open tryout" night at a club.  Go to the coaches you are interested in directly and ask to attend a practice). 

Welcome to the Keeper Parent Support Group!  It's the hardest gig in youth soccer.


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## Surfref (Jul 21, 2018)

Teams are always looking for keepers


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## pewpew (Jul 21, 2018)

I'm sure it's not too late. Look in the B06 forum to see if anyone in your area is still looking for a GK.  There's always a team out there that still needs one or might be looking to carry a 2nd GK. Thing to keep in mind that at this point with the signing deadline just around the corner you may have a team nearby you..but the coach may have already signed a dedicated GK in which case your son may get limited time in goal. 
Nothing worse than signing up for a full-time spot only to be told down the road that there's someone else coming out and you might be splitting time. It's one thing to go join a team knowing upfront that you'll split time 50/50 regardless of outcome (A true sign of a coach who really does develop his players vs one who just wants to win) and being that 2nd GK joining a team and the original GK is looking at sharing time when they might've chosen a guaranteed full-time spot elsewhere. We've been down that road before. (The original GK) And it can be an issue when the 2nd GK is also a field player and been told upfront that they're only getting in goal if our GK wants to split time. We've never gone looking at another team unless we knew upfront that they were looking for a 2nd GK. If a team already has a GK we keep moving down the road. 
But then again..one team was looking to carry 2..but the coach said in the beginning it's 50/50. Then it turns performance-based. 
**If you screw up you can earn your time back.** 
That's not development. That's placing winning first. We left that first..and last training session with that team walking to that car and I told my GK..nope..we aren't coming back here. That's BS. She said the same thing..except the BS part. 
I asked a coach I have the utmost respect for about this..knowing he carries 2 keepers. He said it's 50/50 every time regardless of outcome. If you make a mistake..you can't learn from it sitting on the bench. That's REAL DEVELOPMENT. 
My .02


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## Dargle (Jul 21, 2018)

multisportson said:


> hello!  My '06 son has decided this week to quit his other club sport (ice hockey), and to play keeper full time.  He missed most of last soccer season with a heel injury (made it back in time for state cup), and played part-time the year prior.  So, have we missed the boat for try-outs?  At his age, do teams even want a second 'keeper? Thanks!


What area?  There are multiple teams advertising for B06 keepers on the Soccer Announcements FB page right now.  

If you want to more thoughtfully find a team where your son can develop, while at the same time give your son a chance to shake off the rust, I would recommend scheduling a couple of private sessions with a reputable GK coach right now.  Not only will it help your son get back in the swing of things, experienced GK trainers often can help place your son in a situation appropriate to his ability and needs because they have lots of connections with local coaches.


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## multisportson (Jul 22, 2018)

pewpew said:


> I'm sure it's not too late. Look in the B06 forum to see if anyone in your area is still looking for a GK.  There's always a team out there that still needs one or might be looking to carry a 2nd GK. Thing to keep in mind that at this point with the signing deadline just around the corner you may have a team nearby you..but the coach may have already signed a dedicated GK in which case your son may get limited time in goal.
> Nothing worse than signing up for a full-time spot only to be told down the road that there's someone else coming out and you might be splitting time. It's one thing to go join a team knowing upfront that you'll split time 50/50 regardless of outcome (A true sign of a coach who really does develop his players vs one who just wants to win) and being that 2nd GK joining a team and the original GK is looking at sharing time when they might've chosen a guaranteed full-time spot elsewhere. We've been down that road before. (The original GK) And it can be an issue when the 2nd GK is also a field player and been told upfront that they're only getting in goal if our GK wants to split time. We've never gone looking at another team unless we knew upfront that they were looking for a 2nd GK. If a team already has a GK we keep moving down the road.
> But then again..one team was looking to carry 2..but the coach said in the beginning it's 50/50. Then it turns performance-based.
> **If you screw up you can earn your time back.**
> ...


Thanks for the info, it's exactly what I was looking for.  There is a similar dynamic with goalies in hockey, and I don't want my kid being resented by goalie #1.  I appreciate knowing what questions to ask the coach when we go to a practice.


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## multisportson (Jul 22, 2018)

Dargle said:


> What area?  There are multiple teams advertising for B06 keepers on the Soccer Announcements FB page right now.
> 
> If you want to more thoughtfully find a team where your son can develop, while at the same time give your son a chance to shake off the rust, I would recommend scheduling a couple of private sessions with a reputable GK coach right now.  Not only will it help your son get back in the swing of things, experienced GK trainers often can help place your son in a situation appropriate to his ability and needs because they have lots of connections with local coaches.


I did not know about the FB page-thank you!  We have also scheduled a training with a keeper coach this week.  My boy knows he has a lot of work to do to catch up to the other kids, so he's willing to put in the time.

So here's another question: better to play on a lower level team (bronze?), where you know you'll see lots of action, but will likely lose a lot?  Is the key decider the quality of goalkeeping training provided by the club, all other things being equal?  I know the coach issue is HUGE (it took us six years to find a hockey coach who valued development over winning).  I feel like I need a tutorial called "what to ask when your kid is a keeper."  Has anyone written that?  I've been scouring this thread for answers.


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## MWN (Jul 22, 2018)

@multisportson,

I disagree with a few of the comments (especially @pewpew).  Our path:

The boy was a field player at U11 at club.  U12 he decides to be a keeper, I'm Ok with it because I'm 6'3" and he has a good chance of breaking 6'.  With play with the club through U13, until the club DOC tells me we can't train with the keeper coach of another club (for fear of poaching).  I tell the DOC to pound sand ... bye,bye.  


U14 - we play with a club with good keeper training on a Flight 3 team at his age (U13).  The team sucks, but keeper training is good, he splits time with another keeper, but finds himself back on the field 50% of the time because is one of the top 3-4 field players on the team.  He gets lots of shots when in goal and gets player passed to the U15 team a few times to play in goal.


U15 - we join another club that needs a full-time keeper for their U16 team (Flight 2 - now playing a year up).  The team is middle of the road, but keeper training goes down a notch because the club has their olders and youngers all training together.  The keeper coach does a lousy job of forcing the U-littles to train at the earlier session and/or separating the two during the training.  The boy (2003) is taking shots from (06's) and keeper training is a waste of time most of the time from a development perspective.

During this period, he also gets an invite to train with the Club's DA team, but distance and time involvement make it difficult.  


HS-Freshman - He trys out and is put on the JV team, skipping the Frosh/Soph team.  Starts and when varsity makes its playoff run is the only freshman pulled up to varsity.


U16 - we search for another club with better keeper training.  We find a club that he really clicks with the keeper coach.  He is asked to tryout for the U18 team and is selected.  Now he is playing Flight 1 - 2 years up.  This club is keeper rich in the olders and he splits time with 2 other keepers.  He doesn't care.  He loves the competition, he loves the development at practice and the fact that he is playing 2 years up.


Future ... so here we sit.  The boy is the projected starter on varsity (as a sophmore).  He is 6'3" and just turned 15.  Probably has another 1 to 2 inches of growth yet to come.  He is playing 2 years up on a F1 team (17 year olds) and on average takes a few shots per game that do very little from a development perspective.  He is garnering some interest from college coaches now.
For keepers, I truly believe 95% of development occurs in keeper training and team practice.  Situations and shots are far more frequent in practice.  For example, a keeper may get 50+ shots in a practice session, correction by coaches and repetition opportunities, but only 3 shots in game time with no coaching or repetition.  Yesterday, my boy's team (playing in a tournament gave up a single shot on target (which was really just a soft bounce towards goal).  The opponents could not get the ball out of their 1/2 and the keepers just stood in front of the penalty box and watched.

The one negative to our path is because he is younger playing with olders, his confidence is always being challenged and its sometimes difficult for him to be as vocal and he should be.  He finds it a bit hard (as a 14/15 year) to give instructions to 17/18 years olds, but as he gains the respect of his teammates its becoming easier and easier.

So my biggest piece of advice here is focus on the club's keeper coach.  If you can find a team with a head coach that is keeper knowledgeable ... even better.  Unfortunately, most team coaches are striker centric and lack keeper knowledge.  Playing on sucky teams is a great way of getting lots of shots during games, but also has the potential to form bad habits (i.e. not trusting the back line from a positioning and playing out of the back point of view).


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## Grace T. (Jul 22, 2018)

I'm less gung ho on club keeper coaches.  Too much can happen.  They can leave, they can have a weird mix which forces youngers to train with olders, they can have poor technique, and there might be too many keepers to get good touches on the ball.  We've only been at it 2 years, but have had bad luck with club keeper coaches, and haven't been very impressed with what we saw in tryouts.  Many clubs didn't even have keeper coaches.  With the mega clubs you generally have better luck, particularly if the keeper coach has been there for a while, but the really good coaches in greater LA (due to their being so few who actually understand the position) are doing mostly privates since all except the largest clubs can't afford them.


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## pewpew (Jul 22, 2018)

@MWN 

Please elaborate on what you disagree on from my post. I stated from what our perspective has been and the situations we've seen. If there's a lesson to be learned since your son is older I'm all ears. I'm just not sure what part of my post you don't agree with. 
Thanks


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## Eagle33 (Jul 23, 2018)

pewpew said:


> @MWN
> 
> Please elaborate on what you disagree on from my post. I stated from what our perspective has been and the situations we've seen. If there's a lesson to be learned since your son is older I'm all ears. I'm just not sure what part of my post you don't agree with.
> Thanks


To start, I completely understand your perspective that you want your kid playing 100%. I think every parent wants that. 
However, you kid as well as all the the other kids need to understand that most of the time you have to work for and earn your spot.
It's very common to see team with only 1 keeper at younger age groups, since one or two players can always fill-in in case it's needed. At older age group, there are normally 2 or even 3 keepers, specially at higher levels.
I disagree with coaches that playing keepers 50/50 no matter what. They are not doing any favors to either keepers by doing this and just trying to keep both happy. Best keeper should be starting and getting more time and 2nd keeper should be keeping 1st one on his/her toes at all times at training or whenever he/she steps up in a game. Players need to compete with each other to get better and for starting spot.


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## MWN (Jul 23, 2018)

pewpew said:


> @MWN
> 
> Please elaborate on what you disagree on from my post. I stated from what our perspective has been and the situations we've seen. If there's a lesson to be learned since your son is older I'm all ears. I'm just not sure what part of my post you don't agree with.
> Thanks


@pewpew, 
I fundamentally disagree with your perspective on the relationship between game time and development as it relates to keepers.   I agree with what @Eagle33 wrote at the U12+ level.  But, all of these comments and especially the underlined text is what I disagree with.  (my explanation is below)



pewpew said:


> Nothing worse than signing up for a full-time spot only to be told down the road that there's someone else coming out and you might be splitting time. ....  If a team already has a GK we keep moving down the road.
> But then again..one team was looking to carry 2..but the coach said in the beginning it's 50/50. Then it turns performance-based.
> **If you screw up you can earn your time back.**
> That's not development. That's placing winning first. We left that first..and last training session with that team walking to that car and I told my GK..nope..we aren't coming back here. That's BS. She said the same thing..except the BS part.
> ...


Full explanation:

My view is that *at the 7v7 and 9v9 levels there should never be a full-time GK*.  These are truly development levels and the GKs (plural) should be field players and GKs.  They should always be splitting time, but more importantly working on their field player skills equally (during team training).  Its a major mistake for parents to allow their kid to dedicate themselves to the GK position at these early levels.  Moreover, the kids playing at this level are really playing for the fun of the game, thus, we should minimize players sitting on the bench and give all players touches in practice and during the games.

The exception to the above is U12, Flight 1, which is for those players that are physically and emotionally developed to embrace competition (see below).

At the the U13+ groups, here is my view:

Rec/Signature/Flight 3/Bronze/Silver - These players are playing for fun and the focus should be on developing skills.  Teams should carry 2 keepers and give those keepers field time.  Games are not that important from a competitive standpoint.  All players should get at least 50% playing time.

Flight 2/Silver Elite - These players have transitioned from just fun to playing for competition.  They want to move to the next level and should be rewarded for hard work and dedication developing their skills.  We still want them to have fun, but are going to reward these players based on their skills.  Having a 75%/25% split for players is acceptable.  Because these players want to improve their positions, rewarding a player with playing time and focusing on winning competitions is good.

Flight 1/Gold/Premiere/DA/ECNL/NPL, etc. - These players should have the skills to play at these high levels and the mental competitive drive to push themselves and understand playing time is not guaranteed.  Each practice, each game all factor into playing time.  They should hate sitting on the bench and be driven to get better.  This level is for athletes with a potential future and they need to have competition at their positions.  When they sit, it hurts and they convert that hurt into fire to train better and harder and win the start.  With regard to keepers, the keepers are dedicated to the position (especially at U14+) and training 3-4 days per week to improve and hone their skills.

With regard to keepers, having seen teams with 1, 2 and 3 keepers that the 2 and 3 keeper teams are able to develop their keepers better due to the fact that the keepers are always pushing the other.  This internal friendly competition is good.  They learn from their own and their teammates mistakes.

Because I believe 90% to 95% of keeper development occurs in training with good coaching, I view game time as purely a reward and an opportunity to demonstrate what they learned.  There will be fewer learning opportunities in 90 minute games (or whatever the game length is) than would have occurred in 15 minutes of keeper/team training.  For example, in a typical 90 minute game my kid may see 3 corners and 3 direct kicks.  In 15 minutes of team training he will see 7-8 corners and 6 to 7 directs kicks and get coaching in between while the players reset.


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2018)

MWN said:


> My view is that *at the 7v7 and 9v9 levels there should never be a full-time GK*.  These are truly development levels and the GKs (plural) should be field players and GKs.  .


100% agree with the sentiment.  Agree this is what should happen.  However, from what I've seen (tryouts, reffing, soccer announcement boards, talking with others), I suspect it mostly doesn't happen.  Given keepers are few and far between, and given the amount of teams out there, one kid generally drifts into the role or the team just doesn't have a keeper and field players have to do a rotation.  And when there are two, things can get really weird, particularly if the kids aren't on the same level (have seen this twice now, twice with my son the stronger and once with him the weaker....the club where he was on the weaker one actually handled it better than when he was the stronger).  And when the kids do rotate, the coaches are asking them to do things they shouldn't be doing at this age without training: one v ones, challenging the high balls, diving.

The other thing is that keeper training is changing.  Yes, the former NSCAA recommends not specializing until age 12.   But the position has radically changed in the last 10 years and there is so much to learn.  That's why the European academies are sorting the position now earlier and earlier.  Kudos though to the coaches that do try to give keepers field time (looking through their eyes, I get that it's hard given that others who may not have played at all are also asking for field time, while at the same time they are trying to keep their strongest players on the field to avoid getting fired).  The way I look at it is if the kids are having fun and don't have any pro ambitions why not...from the look of some of the younger boy keepers (larger, bigger, slower), if they weren't playing keeper they probably won't get much field time anyways.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 23, 2018)

MWN said:


> @pewpew,
> I fundamentally disagree with your perspective on the relationship between game time and development as it relates to keepers.   I agree with what @Eagle33 wrote at the U12+ level.  But, all of these comments and especially the underlined text is what I disagree with.  (my explanation is below)
> 
> 
> ...


MWN, I'm normally a big fan of your thoughtful, informative, and well written posts.  But these generalities about what should happen at each age level with regards to playing time, and with regards to what type of kids are playing at which levels is neither realistic nor accurate from my experience.  There are all sorts of reasons kids are playing at Flight X and your assessment about certain groups playing for fun and certain groups playing for competition didn't match our experience in the slightest.  

I think you're right that_ *if*_ you have a good coach _*and*_ a great keeper trainer _*and*_ there is a healthy dynamic between your keeper and the other keeper, having less game time might be a trade off worth making.  But that's a rather rare set of circumstances.  Almost every team my kid was a part of or played against had only 1 FT keeper.  And when you factor in distance to practice, level/flight of the team, quality of team mates, cost of the club/scholarship possibilities, the odds of laying out a road map as you describe is pie-in-the-sky.  Helping your kid settle into the "right" situation for them in club soccer is a much more random and organic set of circumstances.  In the case of the OP, where their kid is a younger looking to find a team late in the off-season, it is important to consider that they might be joining a team where the existing keeper wasn't aware they'd end up splitting time.  I also happen to believe that my kid benefited from being the sole keeper on her teams in the younger ages because she developed more confidence early, which she needed.  Once in HS, she's had to split time and her current team has another keeper, and she's mature enough and self-confident enough to handle it.  But when she was younger, her one experience splitting time was a disaster that set her back a whole season.  I think it's hard to make sweeping statements like "Playing time is more important than training" or "Training is more important than playing time," because everyone's situation is different.  

I agree with PewPew when he said that a coach who has two keepers at the younger ages shouldn't be allocating playing time in goal based on "earning it" via performance in games.  If you're developing a keeper, it's a long, long road and that sort of scenario wouldn't be appealing to me as a parent of a younger keeper.  Also, driving an hour and a half to watch your 11 year old play 30 minutes of soccer on the weekends may not be a wise investment for the family, unless all the other factors are perfectly situated to make up for that lack of playing time.  For me, playing time shouldn't be looked at as a "reward" at that age.  Maybe in HS, but not earlier.


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2018)

So for the benefit of the OP, what can happen when you have 2 keepers.  Not saying everyone is this junky to the kids.  In fact, one club my son tried out for (but didn't select because he'd be forced to split time and he was the weaker keeper) handled it well (granted, we didn't see how they'd handle the season, but they did a couple scrimmages and went well).  

At an old team he had been the sole keeper for a year.  He started off very weak (the jump from extras was hard) but got stronger as he worked on fundamentals.  They had said they would rotate the keeper position between 2 players but the other player was invaluable as a striker, so my son wound up playing the sticks basically full time.  We kept asking him to play the field to keep up his skills, and at the end of the season, said we really hoped they'd bring on a second keeper.  They did, and we were thrilled!...the other keeper had a lot of natural talent but had to start technique from scratch...meanwhile my son had started with a private trainer (having hit the maximum of my knowledge) and had improved dramatically as a result of winter futsal (which cured some of his hesitation and distribution issues...there are some things only game experience can teach).  Distribution wise they had brought on the new kid to long ball it (kid could score off the punt) a lot since my son was taught to play it short, but were also surprised when his trainer fixed his punt and he could punt with the best of them.  Things became a little weird when they did their first scrimmages (playing equal time) and it became apparent my son had raised his game to another level.  At their first tournament, they hardly played my son at all, which [long story short] ultimately caused us to move on.  My suspicion from various piece of information is that there was an arrangement when the other kid came on, and my son was never going to get a fair shake, even if he performed better.

One of the teams he tried out for had a keeper.  We didn't see him the first 2 tryouts so we (not wanting to pepper the coach with a lot of questions) just assumed my son was trying out to be the sole keeper (since that's why the coach had brought him in).  3rd tryout the other kid shows up....real beginner fresh out of AYSO....my son was clearly the stronger (coach even said so).  The coach offers him a slot, we head out for spring break, but we don't hear from him for a week when I call to send the check.  Turns out the guy was overrostered and was looking for a way to ease out his old keeper, who had already paid.

I second mystery train.  It's ideal to have 2 keepers.  That only works though if the coach and trainer are cool and the 2 keepers can work with one another (which generally means they have to be at the same level...because otherwise, at least with boys, even the teammates will make comments which doesn't make for great feelings between the 2 keepers).  If you show up to a tryout and there's already a keeper, it could be an ideal situation, it could be they'll play you against each other and the other kid is stronger, or it could be they'll play you against each other and your kid is better.  The first is a rarity, the second you have to ask yourself how is your kids ego, and the final one you'll have to ask yourself well what kind of a family are you (considering commitments at this point have already been made) and what type of people are you willing to play for.  Only you can answer these questions.


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## MWN (Jul 23, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> MWN, I'm normally a big fan of your thoughtful, informative, and well written posts.  But these generalities about what should happen at each age level with regards to playing time, and with regards to what type of kids are playing at which levels is neither realistic nor accurate from my experience.  There are all sorts of reasons kids are playing at Flight X and your assessment about certain groups playing for fun and certain groups playing for competition didn't match our experience in the slightest.
> 
> I think you're right that_ *if*_ you have a good coach _*and*_ a great keeper trainer _*and*_ there is a healthy dynamic between your keeper and the other keeper, having less game time might be a trade off worth making.  But that's a rather rare set of circumstances.  Almost every team my kid was a part of or played against had only 1 FT keeper.  And when you factor in distance to practice, level/flight of the team, quality of team mates, cost of the club/scholarship possibilities, the odds of laying out a road map as you describe is pie-in-the-sky.  Helping your kid settle into the "right" situation for them in club soccer is a much more random and organic set of circumstances.  In the case of the OP, where their kid is a younger looking to find a team late in the off-season, it is important to consider that they might be joining a team where the existing keeper wasn't aware they'd end up splitting time.  I also happen to believe that my kid benefited from being the sole keeper on her teams in the younger ages because she developed more confidence early, which she needed.  Once in HS, she's had to split time and her current team has another keeper, and she's mature enough and self-confident enough to handle it.  But when she was younger, her one experience splitting time was a disaster that set her back a whole season.  I think it's hard to make sweeping statements like "Playing time is more important than training" or "Training is more important than playing time," because everyone's situation is different.
> 
> I agree with PewPew when he said that a coach who has two keepers at the younger ages shouldn't be allocating playing time in goal based on "earning it" via performance in games.  If you're developing a keeper, it's a long, long road and that sort of scenario wouldn't be appealing to me as a parent of a younger keeper.  Also, driving an hour and a half to watch your 11 year old play 30 minutes of soccer on the weekends may not be a wise investment for the family, unless all the other factors are perfectly situated to make up for that lack of playing time.  For me, playing time shouldn't be looked at as a "reward" at that age.  Maybe in HS, but not earlier.


While I try my best to be thorough in my responses, you are correct that circumstances and nuances of situations also must be considered.  If I tried to cover all the nuances, sometimes my posts would be so long that I just have to generalize.  There are exceptions to every rule/generalization, especially when kids are involved.  There are different coaching situations and philosophies that cause us (parents) need to deviate from the plan or general advice.

For the upcoming season, the HS age kids are 2004s (U15).  2005 (U14) and 2006 (U13) are 11v11, and 07 and youngers are all 9v9 to 7v7.   So we probably only disagree on the nuances for two age groups (U14 and U13).  In my case, I know my son was ready for the competition at around U13.  He didn't like it, but was ready for it.

He just turned 15 and his competitive drive is there.  Yesterday, during a tournament he started the half, and had a horrible game.  Two mental breakdowns that "should have" resulted in goals (but didn't).  When it came to the final, he sat because the other two keepers were more consistent during the tournament. 

His team lost, giving up goals that he believes he would have saved.  First keeper was out of position, too far forward for his size (about 5'9") couldn't jump high enough to deflect a savable ball; second goal the keeper was out of position on his arc, and more than a step away from saving a low shot in the corner, third goal the keeper failed to control the box and allowed a soft header because he didn't challenge a deflected cross.  

His 10 year old self would have been in tears.
His 12 year old self would have been very upset, but he would have just brushed it off giving the coach the benefit of the doubt ... the fire wasn't there yet, just a smolder.
His 15 year old self was pissed and he knew why.  He knew the other keepers (17 year olds) had a better more consistent tournament and earned the spot.  He felt he let his team down by not proving to the coach he was the pick between the sticks.

As we walked back to the car after the final I didn't blow smoke up his butt, just told him that IF he wants to be the starter then its in his hands ... give 100% at every practice, give 100% during warmups ... give 100% during the games. 

This morning ... after a few hours of Fortnite, the kid was dressed in his gear and told me he was going to the park to train on his own.  Was going to work on his dives and kick the ball at the wall and catch it a few hundred times.  The fire is there.  Competition is a key element in development and motivating kids to be the best they can be.

That said, each kid has their own mental drivers and motivations.  Some kids are hyper competitive at younger ages (10) and have the maturity to accept the challenges.  For others it doesn't happen until much later.   We have sought out an environment where the "IFs" are all present.


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## pewpew (Jul 24, 2018)

@MWN @Eagle33 
I think you both misunderstood what I was saying. My GK is an 03. At this age and beyond is well aware of the "possibility" of sharing time in goal and is comfortable having to do so. I say possible because when you look at the various age groups there are still plenty of teams out there looking for just one GK, let alone two. I completely agree at the younger ages parents need to protect their kids from getting pigeon-holed into full-time GK spots. They need to still focus on their kid being a competent field player as this will pay dividends down the road when they get older and decide to become FT keepers. 
Now as far as what I said about having a second GK come along down the road..I'm talking about when a coach likes what he/she sees and tells you they only want one GK. (Regardless of every parent wanting their kid playing 100% of the time..I'm realistic in that it may not happen.)  And if the need for a 2nd or a backup arises..they can pull up another keeper. Then along comes someone looking for a home. Now the coach changes their mind and you are looking to share time. There are enough teams looking for just one keeper, but here you are sharing now when you could've found a home elsewhere as the only GK. That's the point I was trying to make..a coach tells you one thing and then does something totally opposite. It's one thing to go into a new team knowing you'll be splitting time. You have a choice..stay and accept it or go somewhere else. You and your player need to decide if the fit is worth it with regards to coaching, the team, parents, etc. 
@Mystery Train also touched on the fact that when you add time, money, etc into this new dynamic of sharing time your return on your investment doesn't look as good as it did when you were the only GK. 
And as far as training vs. game time experience is concerned..I agree how much more practice you get during a GK session. But you can't put all that training to use unless you are applying it to real-world scenario..be it real game or scrimmage. Watching from the sideline only gets you so much learning. It's just like sending rounds down range..you can hit the 10-ring all day but it's totally different when there are real rounds coming back at you. Nothing beats real-world action for experience. That's one of the areas we disagree as to who should be in goal. To each his own.
The coach I mentioned earlier is dealing with two keepers (G01) of similar ability..hence the splitting time regardless of outcome. Even if one was not quite as capable as the other..he has them both playing equal. They aren't going to learn any other way. But then again he must be something of an anomaly when it comes to development. I've seen so many others put winning first. I must admit I used to be in the same boat but I've come a long way and a few good mentors out there who have taught mine have managed to teach me something as well.

I guess we can all agree to disagree. We all have different experiences as GK families that we have lived through. What has worked for one may not work for another. Still just trying to enjoy the ride and watch mine continue to develop. Good luck to all!!


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## multisportson (Jul 24, 2018)

ok wow, I don't check in for a few days and all kinds of stuff happens.  I will be honest,I only understand parts of everyone's comments, simply because I don't really understand the lingo of soccer. yet.  I really do appreciate everyone's advice and I feel more confident in knowing what questions to ask. 
My boy has two scrimmages on Saturday, so I think we are on our way to hopefully finding a good place for him to play.


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## Keepermom2 (Jul 25, 2018)

multisportson said:


> ok wow, I don't check in for a few days and all kinds of stuff happens.  I will be honest,I only understand parts of everyone's comments, simply because I don't really understand the lingo of soccer. yet.  I really do appreciate everyone's advice and I feel more confident in knowing what questions to ask.
> My boy has two scrimmages on Saturday, so I think we are on our way to hopefully finding a good place for him to play.


That is great!  Sounds like you are off to a great start!


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## socalkdg (Jul 25, 2018)

In case it wasn't mentioned find a coach that wants their players using the keeper as much as possible.  My daughter wouldn't be on team if they aren't putting her foot skills to good use.   Secondly,  it isn't a terrible thing to be on a team that allows a lot of shots.


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## multisportson (Jul 25, 2018)

ok, off topic somewhat, but you all seem like a knowledgeable bunch:
how do I get those stupid green and black blades of "grass" out of my kid's socks??  They are driving me nuts.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 25, 2018)

multisportson said:


> how do I get those stupid green and black blades of "grass" out of my kid's socks?? They are driving me nuts.


Figure that one out, and you will have surpassed all levels of keeper parent wisdom known to this forum, Padawan.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jul 25, 2018)

multisportson said:


> ok, off topic somewhat, but you all seem like a knowledgeable bunch:
> how do I get those stupid green and black blades of "grass" out of my kid's socks??  They are driving me nuts.


At the end of the year you will look back at this and laugh about it  You will know:

1 - You can't get the grass out,
2 - The gloves smell on a completely separate level, 
3 - And NEVER have more than 1 keeper in your car at a time (the smell increases exponentially - not sure why)

Good luck on your kid's journey.


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## 3JMommy (Jul 25, 2018)

Full explanation:

My view is that *at the 7v7 and 9v9 levels there should never be a full-time GK*.  These are truly development levels and the GKs (plural) should be field players and GKs.  They should always be splitting time, but more importantly working on their field player skills equally (during team training).  Its a major mistake for parents to allow their kid to dedicate themselves to the GK position at these early levels.  Moreover, the kids playing at this level are really playing for the fun of the game, thus, we should minimize players sitting on the bench and give all players touches in practice and during the games.

The exception to the above is U12, Flight 1, which is for those players that are physically and emotionally developed to embrace competition (see below).

At the the U13+ groups, here is my view:

Rec/Signature/Flight 3/Bronze/Silver - These players are playing for fun and the focus should be on developing skills.  Teams should carry 2 keepers and give those keepers field time.  Games are not that important from a competitive standpoint.  All players should get at least 50% playing time.

Flight 2/Silver Elite - These players have transitioned from just fun to playing for competition.  They want to move to the next level and should be rewarded for hard work and dedication developing their skills.  We still want them to have fun, but are going to reward these players based on their skills.  Having a 75%/25% split for players is acceptable.  Because these players want to improve their positions, rewarding a player with playing time and focusing on winning competitions is good.

Flight 1/Gold/Premiere/DA/ECNL/NPL, etc. - These players should have the skills to play at these high levels and the mental competitive drive to push themselves and understand playing time is not guaranteed.  Each practice, each game all factor into playing time.  They should hate sitting on the bench and be driven to get better.  This level is for athletes with a potential future and they need to have competition at their positions.  When they sit, it hurts and they convert that hurt into fire to train better and harder and win the start.  With regard to keepers, the keepers are dedicated to the position (especially at U14+) and training 3-4 days per week to improve and hone their skills.

With regard to keepers, having seen teams with 1, 2 and 3 keepers that the 2 and 3 keeper teams are able to develop their keepers better due to the fact that the keepers are always pushing the other.  This internal friendly competition is good.  They learn from their own and their teammates mistakes.

Because I believe 90% to 95% of keeper development occurs in training with good coaching, I view game time as purely a reward and an opportunity to demonstrate what they learned.  There will be fewer learning opportunities in 90 minute games (or whatever the game length is) than would have occurred in 15 minutes of keeper/team training.  For example, in a typical 90 minute game my kid may see 3 corners and 3 direct kicks.  In 15 minutes of team training he will see 7-8 corners and 6 to 7 directs kicks and get coaching in between while the players reset.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most all of this in theory, but I think it splits out for girls with that last level. The highest level 99.99% of them will play is college. If the girl is a solid keeper here in SoCal at any of these levels (Flight 1/Gold/Premiere/DA/ECNL/NPL), they have a shot to play in college, but they need to play to be seen.


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## RedDevilDad (Jul 25, 2018)

In reply to how to get turf grass out...






Throw those microfiber towels you get at the car wash in with your socks and the green grass turf attaches to it...


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## multisportson (Jul 25, 2018)

Yes, can you tell I'm a newbie?  
Also, apparently my boy is up for a keeper position on an academy team.  Whoa!  Time for me to hit the academy boards to figure out what's what. My head is spinning, this is happening so fast.


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## RedDevilDad (Jul 25, 2018)

multisportson said:


> Yes, can you tell I'm a newbie?
> Also, apparently my boy is up for a keeper position on an academy team.  Whoa!  Time for me to hit the academy boards to figure out what's what. My head is spinning, this is happening so fast.


What birth year? What DA?


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## RedDevilDad (Jul 25, 2018)

RedDevilDad said:


> What birth year? What DA?


Are we allowed to ask that? Lol. Just curious. I ask because while all DAs are equal, some are more equal than others.  ;-)
If you’re new, figured we may be able to help with navigating that.


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## multisportson (Jul 25, 2018)

I am scouring the DA boards this afternoon, and he hasn't actually signed anything yet.  So we shall see! (I didn't even know what Academy WAS yesterday, so it's a steep learning curve).


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## AFC (Jul 27, 2018)

I hope it's a DA and not some club that calls themselves academydplelitepilotyouinserttheword


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## multisportson (Jul 29, 2018)

ok, ANOTHER question.  How do you care for your keeper's gloves?  Many websites say to wash after every use, but wouldn't this make the latex break down? I see a lot of conflicting advice online. And how many pairs does your keeper have?  Mine just has one pair, and they don't stink, because up until this last week, he rarely played soccer.  Thanks!


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jul 29, 2018)

multisportson said:


> ok, ANOTHER question.  How do you care for your keeper's gloves?  Many websites say to wash after every use, but wouldn't this make the latex break down? I see a lot of conflicting advice online. And how many pairs does your keeper have?  Mine just has one pair, and they don't stink, because up until this last week, he rarely played soccer.  Thanks!


My kid does not wash her gloves and they stink like crazy (I think we are both fearful that washing the gloves will ruin them).  She has 4  or 5 pairs and I have asked her over and over to rotate the gloves, but she refuses.  I encourage you to keep the gloves out of the backpack, throw in a silica gel pack or two to pull out the moisture and a piece of redwood to help with smell.  Good luck.
PS  I drew the line and will not buy her a new pair until ALL of her current pairs are worn out.


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## multisportson (Jul 29, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> My kid does not wash her gloves and they stink like crazy (I think we are both fearful that washing the gloves will ruin them).  She has 4  or 5 pairs and I have asked her over and over to rotate the gloves, but she refuses.  I encourage you to keep the gloves out of the backpack, throw in a silica gel pack or two to pull out the moisture and a piece of redwood to help with smell.  Good luck.
> PS  I drew the line and will not buy her a new pair until ALL of her current pairs are worn out.


oh a silica pack!  what a GREAT idea!!  I will definitely try that.  thank you


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## Anomaly (Jul 29, 2018)

Washing the gloves actually extends the life of them. My player washes them every 3-5 uses with a soft bristle toothbrush, room temp water, and a tiny bit of glove wash. During her club days, her training gloves would last maybe 3-4 months before needing to be replaced. Game gloves could last upwards 5 months. It has saved us a lot of money in the long run.


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## multisportson (Jul 29, 2018)

Anomaly said:


> Washing the gloves actually extends the life of them. My player washes them every 3-5 uses with a soft bristle toothbrush, room temp water, and a tiny bit of glove wash. During her club days, her training gloves would last maybe 3-4 months before needing to be replaced. Game gloves could last upwards 5 months. It has saved us a lot of money in the long run.


How long did it take them to dry?  I know you're not supposed to put them in the dryer.  Line dry?  I would definitely need to get an extra pair, so my keeper can use one while the other is drying.  thanks for the advice!


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## Anomaly (Jul 29, 2018)

multisportson said:


> How long did it take them to dry?  I know you're not supposed to put them in the dryer.  Line dry?  I would definitely need to get an extra pair, so my keeper can use one while the other is drying.  thanks for the advice!


No problem!

After washing, she squeezes out the excess water, then puts them in an old (clean) towel, folds the top over them, and lets them dry for at the very least 12 hours. Definitely do not line dry! Direct exposure to the sun will lead to the latex cracking. We learned the hard way.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 29, 2018)

multisportson said:


> ok, ANOTHER question.  How do you care for your keeper's gloves?  Many websites say to wash after every use, but wouldn't this make the latex break down? I see a lot of conflicting advice online. And how many pairs does your keeper have?  Mine just has one pair, and they don't stink, because up until this last week, he rarely played soccer.  Thanks!


Good info on glove care, etc. on this thread about gloves here:  http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/gk-gloves.14846/


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## multisportson (Jul 29, 2018)

Thank you!  I learned a lot from that thread.  So many styles and brands I had never heard of.  I need to do research. 

My boy wears Reusch, mostly because that's what they had at the Soccer stores in his size.  But I just discovered that his hands grew, and so now I have to go get new gloves.  Last time he needed gloves, we went to the Sports Page, and Elias got him a great deal on some gloves.  Hopefully he can work that magic again. I need help with the price, as my kid has huge hands for a 12 year old (next gloves will probably be size 10?), and adult sizes are expensive.


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## Dargle (Jul 29, 2018)

multisportson said:


> Thank you!  I learned a lot from that thread.  So many styles and brands I had never heard of.  I need to do research.
> 
> My boy wears Reusch, mostly because that's what they had at the Soccer stores in his size.  But I just discovered that his hands grew, and so now I have to go get new gloves.  Last time he needed gloves, we went to the Sports Page, and Elias got him a great deal on some gloves.  Hopefully he can work that magic again. I need help with the price, as my kid has huge hands for a 12 year old (next gloves will probably be size 10?), and adult sizes are expensive.


There are definitely cheaper options than Reusch. You might check his size at the store and then order from a company like Aviata or West Coast or one of the ones named on the glove thread.


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## pewpew (Jul 29, 2018)

Remember to dampen them with water before getting in goal,training,etc. 
Keep a water bottle next to the goal during games. That way you can dampen them as needed. (Plus a quick drink if necessary.)
Dampening them makes the latex stickier and helps guard against premature wear. And tell him DO NOT SPIT in his gloves!! This does not help make the latex stickier and only aids in making the gloves stinkier from bacteria  because of the saliva. 
I wash my GKs gloves after every 3-5 uses. Keeping them clean extends their life. The thread that @Mystery Train posted a link to has my post about glove cleaning as well as suggestions from a few others. Good luck!!


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## multisportson (Jul 30, 2018)

I didn't even think about the spit, but that's exactly what he does!  now I know I need to tell him to STOP!


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## Keepermom2 (Jul 30, 2018)

multisportson said:


> ok, ANOTHER question.  How do you care for your keeper's gloves?  Many websites say to wash after every use, but wouldn't this make the latex break down? I see a lot of conflicting advice online. And how many pairs does your keeper have?  Mine just has one pair, and they don't stink, because up until this last week, he rarely played soccer.  Thanks!


Logic with most things says that washing wears it down and it never made sense to me that washing the gloves often was good for them until I read the care for a new pair of gloves.  "The latex on the gloves is like a kitchen sponge.  When the latex is dry, it becomes brittle and flaky but when it is moist it is supple and provides more grip on the glove.  Dirt and sweat will breakdown latex.  Dirt acts like sandpaper grinding away the surface of the latex and inhibits the latex's grip.  Wash your gloves in lukewarm water, gently squeezing excess water from the glove.  You can use hand soap if smell is an issue.  (haha)  Do not wring the water from the glove as it can tear the seams.  Goalkeeper gloves should never be washed in the washing machine.  Gloves should be stored back to back and not in a sealed bag so latex can breath."


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