# Burbank United 05 & 06 Girls caught violating player loan program.



## xnd298 (Oct 20, 2018)

Same coach coaches both teams.

They had been doing it all season.
06 players would play up and play 2 games on the days.

Once CSL was informed, they looked at if for 3 weeks and then turned the '05's team 3 wins to losses.

06 players were on both 05 and 06 rosters all season long until the 05 team was disciplined.

Coaches and players were all in on it, they knew they were cheating.

Coach should lose license if Cal South is worth its salt.
Not sure the players should be allowed to play CSL either.


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## futboldad1 (Oct 20, 2018)

06s playing for 05 team same day they played for their 06 team...Not sure I'd classify this as cheating, more like breaking the rules. 

But really you need to take a breath and get some perceptive. The players shouldn't be punished and the coach should be suspended not lose his license.

Now, if the 05s were playing on the 06 team then totally different matter and the coach's license should be in jeopardy.


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## timbuck (Oct 20, 2018)

Both bronze teams with what looks like small rosters.  
I hate teams/clubs that don’t follow the rules, but I’d rather play against a team with at least 11 players than have to play 11v9 or win via forfeit.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 20, 2018)

Yes, can’t blame the kids. They probably wanted to play. However, the parents of those children knew. Parents and coach responsible. Definitely breaking the rules. Not as bad as Anaheim Surf incident. And, that coach is still on suspension. But not for cheating.


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## xnd298 (Oct 20, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> 06s playing for 05 team same day they played for their 06 team...Not sure I'd classify this as cheating, more like breaking the rules.
> 
> But really you need to take a breath and get some perceptive. The players shouldn't be punished and the coach should be suspended not lose his license.
> 
> Now, if the 05s were playing on the 06 team then totally different matter and the coach's license should be in jeopardy.


Yeah, great message to send to the players and coach that knew what they were doing. 
Bad message to send to the rest of the clubs out there that work the right way to form teams with enough players. 
Couldn't disagree more. 
If you can't get the players, don't form the team. 
The rest of the teams will be completely fine without you.


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## xnd298 (Oct 20, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Both bronze teams with what looks like small rosters.
> I hate teams/clubs that don’t follow the rules, but I’d rather play against a team with at least 11 players than have to play 11v9 or win via forfeit.


This has been their status since the beginning of the season, they never had enough players.
 The 05 team never had more than 10 '05 players.
If they abandon the effort early enough, the players can find other places to play and CSL can put another team in the bracket. 
The Club and the coach put their interests ahead of CSL and the other teams in the bracket.


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## RedCard (Oct 20, 2018)

It's sad that the coaches allowed this and worst that the parents went along with it. You can't blame the players since they're like 11 or 12 years old. They probably just happy to play more games.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 20, 2018)

IMO the parents probably didn't have much of an option.  As an example on my DD's team we don't have enough players for Sunday games.  We also cannot forfeit a game because I guess there are hefty fines.   

The coach is at fault and more importantly they should allow parents to move their kids (with refunds) to other teams if at the beginning of the season the team doesn't have enough players.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

Just curious. Why is this a rule?

We have a few players who play up a year on our clubs ecnl team and also play on one of our clubs scdsl teams at their birth year. They often play 2 games a day when the schedules permit.  Aside from it being a lot of soccer on their legs, why is it a problem?  As far as I know, there is not rule against it.


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## timbuck (Oct 20, 2018)

ECNL is not a cal south league.  So the 2 governing bodies don’t care if you play in multiple games in a day.  It’s completely stupid and a loophole that should be closed.


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## Caltek (Oct 20, 2018)

With Pace said:


> Just curious. Why is this a rule?
> 
> We have a few players who play up a year on our clubs ecnl team and also play on one of our clubs scdsl teams at their birth year. They often play 2 games a day when the schedules permit.  Aside from it being a lot of soccer on their legs, why is it a problem?  As far as I know, there is not rule against it.


Scdsl along with csl both specify you are not permitted to play on 2 separate teams in the same day only exception is a keeper can play in 2 games as long as one game is only in goal. That is their rule within their league play.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 20, 2018)

Arguing about the rule is not important. Those who are in control bypassing the rules is.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

timbuck said:


> ECNL is not a cal south league.  So the 2 governing bodies don’t care if you play in multiple games in a day.  It’s completely stupid and a loophole that should be closed.


I’m really not trying to be dense.  Why is it stupid for a player to play on two different teams in two different age groups for their own club?  I wouldn’t want my child playing the much soccer every weekend, but not sure I understand why there should be a rule against it.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 20, 2018)

With Pace said:


> I’m really not trying to be dense.  Why is it stupid for a player to play on two different teams in two different age groups for their own club?  I wouldn’t want my child playing the much soccer every weekend, but not sure I understand why there should be a rule against it.


You can’t be rostered on two teams, anywhere.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Arguing about the rule is not important. Those who are in control bypassing the rules is.


Yes, I understand that it is a rule and rules should be followed or penalties enforced.  I’m just trying to understand why this rule exists.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> You can’t be rostered on two teams, anywhere.


Of course you can.  The example I gave above is allowed. Discovery players in ecnl is another example of where it is actually allowed for a player to be rostered on an ecnl team and at a completely different club in a different league.


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## timbuck (Oct 20, 2018)

Because without this rule, you’ll have kids playing 4 games a day.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 20, 2018)

With Pace said:


> Of course you can.  The example I gave above is allowed. Discovery players in ecnl is another example of where it is actually allowed for a player to be rostered on an ecnl team and at a completely different club in a different league.


True, you can be rostered, but not active. And if playing CSL or SCDSL you can’t. ECNL are guests. Look play for one team and guest if needed. Let’s not deviate from the conversation.


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## timbuck (Oct 20, 2018)

You can’t play in a cal south league twice in one day (unless you are a gk). 
This is Coast, scdsl and presidio and signature. (I think) 
You could place ecnl, AYSO and scdsl in the same day. 
DA won’t allow you to play for anyone else. Not sure how they enforce if you try to play in another league other than DA saying “that’s the rule.”
I have no idea how DPL works.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Because without this rule, you’ll have kids playing 4 games a day.


Fair enough and probably true that we can’t trust coaches and parents setting appropriate limits.  Going back the original post though, I really don’t have any problem with a player helping out another team in their club by playing in two different age groups on the same day.  I’m just saying that a rule preventing this specific situation seems unnecessary to me.


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## LASTMAN14 (Oct 20, 2018)

With Pace said:


> Fair enough and probably true that we can’t trust coaches and parents setting appropriate limits.  Going back the original post though, I really don’t have any problem with a player helping out another team in their club by playing in two different age groups on the same day.  I’m just saying that a rule preventing this specific situation seems unnecessary to me.


It was put in place for the best interest of the player.


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## timbuck (Oct 20, 2018)

With Pace said:


> Fair enough and probably true that we can’t trust coaches and parents setting appropriate limits.  Going back the original post though, I really don’t have any problem with a player helping out another team in their club by playing in two different age groups on the same day.  I’m just saying that a rule preventing this specific situation seems unnecessary to me.


Considering how many tournaments cal-south sanctions, you’d think they wouldn’t care.


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## With Pace (Oct 20, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Considering how many tournaments cal-south sanctions, you’d think they wouldn’t care.


Exactly!  We played in tournaments just this summer that had 5 games over 2 days, or 6 games over 3 days.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 20, 2018)

What the hell is wrong with people, seriously? This is youth soccer. If coaches and parents can’t get their act together and set a good example for young kids, what chance do these kids have? Every few months we hear a new story of coaches/parents/players breaking rules and either cheating to try and win or just doing as they please to field teams. It’s tragic.

The more stuff I read on this board and the more things I see and hear every single weekend (came across yet another absolutely cuckoo coach again today that shouldn’t be involved in kids’ soccer), instead of encouraging us that youth soccer is at least heading in the right direction, it’s clear that the opposite is true. That’s not a blanket statement; there are good people pushing in the right direction but it’s kind of like humanity right now; too many fools pushing in the opposite direction for much progress to be made.

Is it really that difficult for adults to make decisions that are in keeping with the rules and in the best interests of the kids? (none of them need to be playing multiple games in a day btw).


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## GunninGopher (Oct 20, 2018)

If Cal South allowed clubs to roster players for any number of teams a weekend some clubs would have their best players playing 4 or more games a weekend, every weekend. This is in-appropriate for any number of reasons, but from the practical standpoint of US Soccer and Cal-South (since many people insist that they don't care about the players themselves), these players risk injury and burnout and would no longer be customers.


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## xnd298 (Oct 21, 2018)

RedCard said:


> It's sad that the coaches allowed this and worst that the parents went along with it. You can't blame the players since they're like 11 or 12 years old. They probably just happy to play more games.





RedCard said:


> It's sad that the coaches allowed this and worst that the parents went along with it. You can't blame the players since they're like 11 or 12 years old. They probably just happy to play more games.


Ok, so lets not blame them. But if they know they are breaking the rules like these kids knew, lets go ahead and suspend them a game or two and teach a worthwhile lesson; if you want to play or work within an organization, you will need to follow the rules of that organization. 

Since when did accountability become a forbidden concept ?


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## espola (Oct 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> You can’t play in a cal south league twice in one day (unless you are a gk).
> This is Coast, scdsl and presidio and signature. (I think)
> You could place ecnl, AYSO and scdsl in the same day.
> DA won’t allow you to play for anyone else. Not sure how they enforce if you try to play in another league other than DA saying “that’s the rule.”
> I have no idea how DPL works.


I'm not aware of any Cal South rule specifically about this.  The situation arises from leagues that allow players to play as a temporary guest on another of their club's teams, and leagues that have such a rule do it to protect players from over use.


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## tabletop (Oct 21, 2018)

CSL rules state that a violation of the Loan Player Program may result in the club no longer being able to participate in the loan program as well as up to $1000 dollar fine for each incident in which the club violated the rules.  If CSL followed through with these punishments, the club would not be happy with the G05/G06 coach.  Imagine if you are a coach within Burbank United who is using the loan program appropriately and then halfway through the season you are told you can no longer use it because another coach within your club decided he/she was above the rules, you’d probably make sure there was some severe accountability within your club.


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## jpeter (Oct 21, 2018)

Other clubs do something similar and get away with roster shenanigans.  Big clubs where the club director knows better but still don't follow the roster rules for example SD surf has two 2003 teams in DSL where the rosters are over the limit 30 players & 27 and they are shifting them down to win games and sacrificing comp at the higher levels

B2003 Flight 1
http://www.scdslsoccer.com/_element_display/#/73496/teams/91742887/92492719-91742988/TEAM.html?dummy=1540139830607

B2003 Flight 1 discovery

Notice how players are on both rosters?
http://www.scdslsoccer.com/_element_display/#/73496/teams/91742887/92492644-91743283/TEAM.html?dummy=1540140363994

Other teams are also pulling stuff also with write in player adds on game day for players showing up from other leagues.  Some naive refs acutally give the roster  Sheets back to coach's who end up turing back in something other than the orginal without the write in add on.   

You can called it gaming the system, cheating or whatever but it happens in more ways than most know.   The age verification process, audits, and follow up for  CAL south is comedy and there is lot of stuff that goes on all the time & they do very little or mimimal on really caring that people are always taking advantage ,  letting teams playing down in state & national cup is another one.


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## timbuck (Oct 21, 2018)

Scdsl allows you to play up or down a flight.  As long as you are the right age. 
Coast will only allow you to play up a flight or up an age group.  

The enforcement is pretty weak and takes an opposing club to log a complain and then the league has to dig up the game reports.


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## jpeter (Oct 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Scdsl allows you to play up or down a flight.  As long as you are the right age.
> Coast will only allow you to play up a flight or up an age group.
> 
> The enforcement is pretty weak and takes an opposing club to log a complain and then the league has to dig up the game reports.


Does DSl allow 30 players in a roster?
http://www.scdslsoccer.com/_element_display/#/73496/MatchReports/91742887/7690169.html?dummy=1540145121337

Does DSL allow players to be on two separate rosters so they can "loan" players to another team without limits?
http://www.scdslsoccer.com/_element_display/#/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::73496+Elements/Display+E+47116+Player/+92492719+91742988+93769648

Does DSl routinely "suspend"  players from the 2nd match of the day or is there lack of  enforcement there also?


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## timbuck (Oct 21, 2018)

Dang.  Something seems messed up there!!

If we have club pass players, we write them in. As instructed in the game day procudures on the scdsl site. 
Maybe this team entered them onto their roster instead to make the game report look cleaner?

The refs barely look.


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## galaxydad (Oct 21, 2018)

I agree that breaking the rules is unethical, but also the leagues need to look at their rules. Clubs have to commit to teams early in the summer, but players don’t have to lock into a team until Aug 1st. If you drop a team there is a HUGE fine to the club and sometimes those teams that they thought they would fill don’t have enough players once the Aug 1st deadline hits. The league response is use your player passes or pay the fine. Smaller clubs may not have enough teams at an age to player pass. 10,000 fine Vs having an 06 play up and get game time creates a dilemma for everyone. 

Well managed clubs don’t have this issue but there are some times where this happens with no fault to the club or coaches. 

What Surf is doing is stupid and while legal violates the spirit of the game


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## jpeter (Oct 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Dang.  Something seems messed up there!!
> 
> If we have club pass players, we write them in. As instructed in the game day procudures on the scdsl site.
> Maybe this team entered them onto their roster instead to make the game report look cleaner?
> ...


They have been roster shifting since they didn't get the results they were looking for after a couple games, just look at the history.

There not the only club pulling fast ones in DSL either from what I've heard there are routinely players from other leagues showing and the refs don't notice.  Seen vid & pictures of players without even numbers.


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## timbuck (Oct 21, 2018)

Just wait until state cup.  You’ll see ecnl patches all over presidents and governors. 
Look for Slammers and blues to exploit the heck out of that option.  West Coast/OC Surf was also notorious for doing it. But they have all in on DA now and can’t pull DA players into cal-south games. 
Will arsenal and sharks?


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## xnd298 (Oct 21, 2018)

I think the refs need help, Leagues need to put QR codes on player cards. Refs aren't going to have a barcode scanner on their phone, but they could easily have a QR code Scanner. Each card gets scanned and if the player has played that day, the ref would know immediately.


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## timbuck (Oct 21, 2018)

Or people could just...you know...follow the dang rules!!!!

I think SCDSL put their club pass rule in place to help with "development." If a player on a Flight 1 team isn't getting much playing time, she can be club passed to the Flight 2 or Flight 3 team.  And if a girl on the F2 team is having a great season, they can pull her up to the F1 roster.
But I don't know if that is how it works for many teams though.  
The Flight 2 team has been struggling and has a game on Sunday.  They Flight 1 team plays on Saturday.  The Flight 2 team isn't going to ask for the girl who is only playing 5 minutes per game.  They are going to look for a scorer, a brick wall in the back or the 2nd coming of Hope Solo.
Or if a F2 player is brought up (and the F1 team isn't missing any players), you'll get dirty looks for taking away playing time.


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## xnd298 (Oct 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Or people could just...you know...follow the dang rules!!!!
> 
> I think SCDSL put their club pass rule in place to help with "development." If a player on a Flight 1 team isn't getting much playing time, she can be club passed to the Flight 2 or Flight 3 team.  And if a girl on the F2 team is having a great season, they can pull her up to the F1 roster.
> But I don't know if that is how it works for many teams though.
> ...


Well, there are obviously a lot of unethical people out there. 
That's why my feeling is that the only way to stop it is you make the penalties very severe for everyone that participates in the scam activity.


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## espola (Oct 21, 2018)

xnd298 said:


> Well, there are obviously a lot of unethical people out there.
> That's why my feeling is that the only way to stop it is you make the penalties very severe for everyone that participates in the scam activity.


What other accounts do you have on socalsoccer?


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## xnd298 (Oct 21, 2018)

espola said:


> What other accounts do you have on socalsoccer?


do I need to have another account ? 
I wouldn't make an assumption that I am someone else who has commented in the past about things, because I am not.
Don't get me confused with anyone else.


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## Messi>CR7 (Oct 21, 2018)

With Pace said:


> Yes, I understand that it is a rule and rules should be followed or penalties enforced.  I’m just trying to understand why this rule exists.


One reason is fairly obvious by the existence of this thread.  If you don't have this rule or enforce this rule, shady coaches/clubs can roster a team with only 9 or 10 players to play 11v11 counting on getting guest players every weekend.

Also I would like to think winning the league does/should matter to kids, so fairness matters.  While not the case in this situation, you could have bronze teams constantly borrowing players from gold or silver.  With the exception of the UEFA Champions League, winning the regular season league is the most important achievement for every major professional team outside of US.  Often a promotion is the ultimate reward if you're not already in the top league.  Somehow in the US we have this MLS playoff system and countless summer/winner tournaments for youth teams..............but that's another topic.


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## Toch (Oct 22, 2018)

xnd298 said:


> Same coach coaches both teams.
> 
> They had been doing it all season.
> 06 players would play up and play 2 games on the days.
> ...



Sounds like you’ve got some unresolved issues. You’re one of those scumbags that likes to talk crap to kids. How do you know that the Kid KNEW he/she was cheating? 
Gosh you’re such a loser


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## xnd298 (Oct 22, 2018)

Toch said:


> Sounds like you’ve got some unresolved issues. You’re one of those scumbags that likes to talk crap to kids. How do you know that the Kid KNEW he/she was cheating?
> Gosh you’re such a loser


I spoke with a parent from the team. Everyone directly involved knew. You clearly have a messed up value system that advocates cheating over transparency. Its obvious you are the one with issues.


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## Kicker4Life (Oct 22, 2018)

Looks like between these 2 teams, they are a combine 1 - 13, hardly “cheaters” unless they are using their ‘05’s on the ‘06 team.


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## xnd298 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Looks like between these 2 teams, they are a combine 1 - 13, hardly “cheaters” unless they are using their ‘05’s on the ‘06 team.


You missed the part where CSL stripped the 05 team of their wins.

But by your logic, if the team loses every game and they are breaking the rules fielding players that are not eligible to play in two games that day, because the team lost they aren't cheating ?

What if a player was injured playing in a game that should have been a forfeit ?

Your logic seems half baked.


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## GKDad65 (Oct 22, 2018)

I can remember, as a new parent, how upset I got over this nonsense.  In a few years you'll laugh at all the drama of youth soccer and realize how silly it has become.
We are both the victims of this system (Clubs) and the problem.


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## Kicker4Life (Oct 22, 2018)

xnd298 said:


> You missed the part where CSL stripped the 05 team of their wins.
> 
> But by your logic, if the team loses every game and they are breaking the rules fielding players that are not eligible to play in two games that day, because the team lost they aren't cheating ?
> 
> ...


No....I’m just not vilifying them to the extent you are.  Cheating implies you’ve given yourself an illegal ADVANTAGE.  Yes, they broke the rules and most importantly, rules in place to protect player safety and should face the penalties for doing so.  

I just don’t share the same amount of animosity towards them as you seem to have. 

Nothing more, nothing less


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## xnd298 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> No....I’m just not vilifying them to the extent you are.  Cheating implies you’ve given yourself an illegal ADVANTAGE.  Yes, they broke the rules and most importantly, rules in place to protect player safety and should face the penalties for doing so.
> 
> I just don’t share the same amount of animosity towards them as you seem to have.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less


There is a very simple way they could have handled it, just play with 10 on the days you can't use the loan program.


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## Not_that_Serious (Oct 22, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Looks like between these 2 teams, they are a combine 1 - 13, hardly “cheaters” unless they are using their ‘05’s on the ‘06 team.


We tell kids play whomever is on the field. We played a team yesterday who acted like they won the super bowl after coming back to tie the game. They brought kids who didnt even have club jerseys and kid told ref "i have a zero, just cant see it". The center ref didnt care, was just running the game to get paid. Was more a tackle football game, then an actual soccer match. Had coach bring in their Discovery kids to play us as well - a team consisting of the "left over" kids who didnt make the discovery roster and dropped down an entire flight to try and dominate the division. Has worked for the most part, but competing at the wrong level. Have to teach kids to deal with whats in front them - but most understand dropping an ECNL team or group of kids down to flight 2 or 3 to play isnt good thing. Unless the goal is to win.

 Moving 1 or 2 kids down a flight to help kids with less skill develop is a good thing (i know folks have a fit over it)- if you are not revolving the entire game around those players. Sometimes teams lack a mid to distribute a ball, a strong defender, a wing or whatever, that can make a team play more fluid - thus helping the kids develop individually. Sometimes even bringing a kid with a high motor will teach kids to move more. In other countries they move kids up and down for these reasons - but a lot of emphasis in our country to win over becoming better as individuals. That being said, bringing in 3-4 new starters is PROBABLY against the "spirit" of competition. Most likely it wont help develop your the other kids. 

Playing on the field for two rosters is plainly a rules violation. This isnt put in place to protect kids, given kids have played 2-3 games in a day before. Cal South and the various leagues know being able to multi-team roster a player is mainly done for Wins, and solely done in the interest of the club. 

Keepers have been mentioned, but if you look at SCDSL the rule seems to have been modified from what it was previous years (could be wrong): No player may participate on more than one SCDSL team on a given day (with the exception of a GoalKeeper who may play in no more than 2 games per day in which, when “club passed” for a second game of the day may ONLY play in goal as the “club passed” player in a 2-game day. IMO it shouldnt matter what game the kid plays the field. You can have a really good keeper at flight 1 and want to help him develop other aspects of his game - but maybe isnt good enough to develop at flight 1. So moving him to flight 2 or 3 to develop his touch, passing skills, etc can be done at a different speed. He might be a short kid who might want to learn to play a different position or MAYBE he might want to have some fun out of goal. You can also have a situation where you have a keeper at a lower flight developing his skills, but is a really good field player who can play at a higher flight. Some will say, just roster the kid at the higher flight and have him play keeper for the lower flight - not always possible with scheduling conflicts.


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## Holliday88 (Oct 30, 2018)

Couple of thoughts from someone who comes from another state/system.

1) include blame for CalSouth. Many other states use digital player cards that refs access at game time on an iPhone or Android phone. CalSouth could have this and should have had it years ago as it was developed by the same company that does their registrations. With this system, once a player is checked in for a game he/she would be ineligible for another game that day (his/her card will be locked or greyed out) if they the league is setup with those rules. 
2) I agree with a previous poster this is breaking the rules, but not cheating. I'd rather play a full squad than a short squad as our goal at these younger ages is development not winning. Right? And sometimes players leave late in the summer and it is too late to replace them, but you still have a team that wants to play together. It's really not a big deal. These were Bronze teams, right? 
3) CSL is too restrictive with loaning players. Credit to SCDSL on this. Younger ages should allow for more movement within rosters. A season cap on games allowed would protect playing time for weaker players. Current system is gamed by rostering Silver level players on Bronze teams and then they can play for both teams without issue (not on same day), which just means the players who need the most work get the least.


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## outside! (Oct 31, 2018)

Holliday88 said:


> 1) include blame for CalSouth. Many other states use digital player cards that refs access at game time on an iPhone or Android phone. CalSouth could have this and should have had it years ago as it was developed by the same company that does their registrations. With this system, once a player is checked in for a game he/she would be ineligible for another game that day (his/her card will be locked or greyed out) if they the league is setup with those rules.


This!


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## Primetime (Oct 31, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> 06s playing for 05 team same day they played for their 06 team...Not sure I'd classify this as cheating, more like breaking the rules.
> 
> But really you need to take a breath and get some perceptive. The players shouldn't be punished and the coach should be suspended not lose his license.
> 
> Now, if the 05s were playing on the 06 team then totally different matter and the coach's license should be in jeopardy.


intentionally "breaking the rules" is the definition of cheating.   Regardless how big or small an advantage it gave them.   The rules aren't complicated and they decided to break em.   No gray area here.


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## Primetime (Oct 31, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Looks like between these 2 teams, they are a combine 1 - 13, hardly “cheaters” unless they are using their ‘05’s on the ‘06 team.


There is such a thing as cheating and still losing.   The good old phrase "cheaters never prosper".    I didn't look but I believe the original post said they had 3 wins relinquished and those were the 3 games in question so perhaps it did help em win some games.   Plus Despite age or play level I'm sure extra or better yet any subs is an upgrade from none or playing short.


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## espola (Oct 31, 2018)

Primetime said:


> There is such a thing as cheating and still losing.   The good old phrase "cheaters never prosper".    I didn't look but I believe the original post said they had 3 wins relinquished and those were the 3 games in question so perhaps it did help em win some games.   Plus Despite age or play level I'm sure extra or better yet any subs is an upgrade from none or playing short.


One of espola's old rules is that if you cheat, don't win.  Someone you beat will do the research and find you out.  Of course, if you cheat and still lose, no one will care (although some will mock you when they find out).


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## Holliday88 (Oct 31, 2018)

Primetime said:


> intentionally "breaking the rules" is the definition of cheating.   Regardless how big or small an advantage it gave them.   The rules aren't complicated and they decided to break em.   No gray area here.


Breaking the rules is not always cheating. If a club had a kid playing up 4 years (a 10 year old playing with 14 year olds) it would be against the rules, but nobody would call that cheating. (Girls putting tape over their earrings is technically against the rules too, but if someone calls that cheating I give up)

I'm not defending what they did, but it wasn't cheating. They were desperate and broke the rules so they didn't have to forfeit. That benefitted their own players and the opposition who got a game they wouldn't have. The only ones "hurt" were the ones who played two games in one day, and at this age and level that wasn't anything. I have zero affiliation with this club so it doesn't matter to me, but it does seem to me that everyone is focused on wins and losses here (even the punishment was losses), when at these ages it is meaningless. They were a Bronze team and unless the loss penalty knocked them out of first place (I don't know but doubt it did), if I were a parent on the team I'd probably say to myself that it was better to have had the games played for the experience and get the losses later than to have never played. 

Keep perspective people.  These are 12/13 year old kids. We should want them playing games more than we want a 1-0 forfeit. 

I know the next argument is that the team should never have been formed. I know that is true, but sometimes it happens and you just have to get through the season. Time to put the pitchforks away.


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## xnd298 (Oct 31, 2018)

Holliday88 said:


> Breaking the rules is not always cheating. If a club had a kid playing up 4 years (a 10 year old playing with 14 year olds) it would be against the rules, but nobody would call that cheating. (Girls putting tape over their earrings is technically against the rules too, but if someone calls that cheating I give up)
> 
> I'm not defending what they did, but it wasn't cheating. They were desperate and broke the rules so they didn't have to forfeit. That benefitted their own players and the opposition who got a game they wouldn't have. The only ones "hurt" were the ones who played two games in one day, and at this age and level that wasn't anything. I have zero affiliation with this club so it doesn't matter to me, but it does seem to me that everyone is focused on wins and losses here (even the punishment was losses), when at these ages it is meaningless. They were a Bronze team and unless the loss penalty knocked them out of first place (I don't know but doubt it did), if I were a parent on the team I'd probably say to myself that it was better to have had the games played for the experience and get the losses later than to have never played.
> 
> ...


Your semantics and compassion is all very fascinating but I think some more facts and additional perspective are in order.

The 05 and 06 teams have 23 total players. They could have sat 1 player from the 06 team and used that player on the days when both teams played.
Coast has continued to allow them use of the Player loan Program and that is what they have done for their remaining games.

The 05 team lost players because they disliked the coach, the players left in July.
I would dislike a coach that took my bronze team and put them in a high level tournament and then blasted the players as the game was going on when they were losing against dramatically better competition.
http://events.gotsport.com/events/schedule.aspx?eventid=63199&FieldID=0&applicationID=4760062&action=Go

Now imagine you are a coach of a different team that has put in lots of time to avoid a scenario where you don't have enough players.
Imagine a coach that has been pro active when things fall apart and the team lost players and you followed the rules and went out and did whatever was needed to get enough players.

And on the other side, the Burbank coach that just convinces the teams parents and players, "hey, lets just not follow the rules and play these games".

Is there any question, when comparing the two, about the type of individual we want coaching youth soccer ?

Lets pretend the players on the opposing teams find out, what is the line of BS we would give them to make it all better ?

Do we want the coach that openly pushes unethical behavior on this organizational level to be leading a group of 13 year olds ?
Is that the person that we want espousing values ?
If the coach had somehow not told the players and parents and they were unaware, that would sit better with me, but that wasn't the case here.

"Its just Bronze".
What a poorly thought out comment.
Its just the proletariat, right ?

Whether Bronze or DA, kids learning ethical behavior is far more important in life than what level of soccer they play, played or any Player Development Initiative that you have somehow skewed as more important.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 31, 2018)

X d298, you really are fired up over this.  I agree with some of the others. It's just bronze!!!' It's not for a championship game either.   It was not right  but there will be worse things that you will see as the kids move up in flights and age.   My dd's team plays with 6 players vs 7 and we would love to have another girl help us to give our girls a break. Sometimes we get another player and it makes a huge difference. (Scdsl rules).    Sometimes teams don't mind playing us 6 v6 and other times they don't care and try to score as many goals as possible.  Those parents wanted help and the coach bend the rules to help.  

This post has gone way too extreme.


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## xnd298 (Oct 31, 2018)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> X d298, you really are fired up over this.  I agree with some of the others. It's just bronze!!!' It's not for a championship game either.   It was not right  but there will be worse things that you will see as the kids move up in flights and age.   My dd's team plays with 6 players vs 7 and we would love to have another girl help us to give our girls a break. Sometimes we get another player and it makes a huge difference. (Scdsl rules).    Sometimes teams don't mind playing us 6 v6 and other times they don't care and try to score as many goals as possible.  Those parents wanted help and the coach bend the rules to help.
> 
> This post has gone way too extreme.


The scenario you are describing is not an apples apples comparison, your team is completely transparent about it and this team had a way to follow the rules all along and play 11 v 11 and chose a different route.

If the post is too much for you, by all means, stop following it.

But I don't see anybody insulting anybody on here the way I have seen on other threads.
Telling the player that approaches an adult when they overhear the other team talking about how they just broke the rules that its just bronze, I don't see that going over to well.

Regardless of your personal view of it, the players want it to be fair.

Your response is the view from a parent with a given view on the issue.

The reaction I am relaying is from players and coaches in the league who frankly have a lot more physical work sunk in to a given season than a parent.

You are free to continue viewing the scenario how you like, but asking players who have sunk a lot more in to competing in a given season to let it go, when they know the other team broke a rule, what effect does that have on them ?

Losing or winning, not important in the grand scheme.

Breaking rules to try and win when you could not break rules and still play, I am ok with a player having a problem with that.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 1, 2018)

espola said:


> One of espola's old rules is that if you cheat, don't win.  Someone you beat will do the research and find you out.  Of course, if you cheat and still lose, no one will care (although some will mock you when they find out).


I do believe you referred to yourself in third person.


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## Holliday88 (Nov 1, 2018)

xnd298 said:


> The scenario you are describing is not an apples apples comparison, your team is completely transparent about it and this team had a way to follow the rules all along and play 11 v 11 and chose a different route.
> 
> If the post is too much for you, by all means, stop following it.
> 
> ...


I agree with SoccerFan4Life, you are way too fired up about this. Unless you are a parent on that team (Burbank) I really can't understand why you are spending time researching how many players they have, what they are doing, etc. 

If they had 05's playing on the '06s then sure, go for it. But c'mon man, move on. They screwed up (minorly) and you want the Spanish inquisition.


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## xnd298 (Nov 1, 2018)

Holliday88 said:


> I agree with SoccerFan4Life, you are way too fired up about this. Unless you are a parent on that team (Burbank) I really can't understand why you are spending time researching how many players they have, what they are doing, etc.
> 
> If they had 05's playing on the '06s then sure, go for it. But c'mon man, move on. They screwed up (minorly) and you want the Spanish inquisition.


Yes, you have already stated your opinion.


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