# Cal Berkeley Coach (women) abusive



## oh canada

Appalling if true...especially at a university that is supposed to be so "woke" :

Fox 2/KTVU, the local Fox station in the Bay Area, released a reported on Sunday detailing allegations of verbal abuse within the Cal Women’s Soccer program from the past decade. Fox 2/KTVU interviewed a number of current and former players from the program about the behavior of head coach Neil McGuire, who is in his 13th season in charge of the team. 

“I was so scared of this man,” former player Hannah Koski told KTVU about McGuire. 

“I ran until I couldn’t feel my arms anymore,” former player Olivia Sekany said about a punishing workout. “And on the last lap that we were doing, my vision went black as I crossed the finish line, and I started saying, ‘I can’t see! I can’t see!”

Indigo Gibson, who declined to be interviewed on camera, wrote a letter to the News Station about McGuire. 

"[McGuire] would discuss my relationship with my father as a sign of weakness in my development as a player,” Gibson wrote in the letter. “It is the fear of Neil [McGuire] that sticks out in my head.” 

Other players expressed how their interaction with McGuire ruined their joy of the sport. 

“Any love I had for soccer, he completely took away,” former player Caroline Clark told KTVU. “I just wasn’t happy anymore.” 

According to KTVU, multiple players reached out to administration at the school in regards to McGuire’s behavior. The university declined to make anyone from the athletic department available for an interview and cited pending litigation. 

Former player Renee Thomas is suing the university following being cut from the team after her freshman season. Thomas was a non-scholarship player during her freshman season in 2018. She played 304 minutes during the season, but she was one of five players cut from the team in the spring even though she was awarded the “most improved player” award at the team banquet. 

The case was dismissed from the district court in March of 2020. 

Cal did confirm to KTVU that the university was looking into the allegations that the news station brought forth during their report. 

California is 18-17-5 over the last two seasons, and has not made it past the second round of the NCAA Tournament in the last decade.


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## Giesbock

All of this comforts me in our family’s approach to finding a soccer program that wants her, balance of education and soccer, not getting sucked in to the name only.


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## Sandypk

Cal Women’s Soccer Signs No. 1 Recruiting Class in Nation - California Golden Bears Athletics
					

The No. 1 Public University In The World Is Bringing Nation's Top Class To Berkeley




					calbears.com


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## Sandypk

Hopefully the incoming class will speak up if they need to and make him accountable for his actions.


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## oh canada

Sandypk said:


> Hopefully the incoming class will speak up if they need to and make him accountable for his actions.


Sounds like multiple players have been speaking out for some time with no help from the university.  Jekyll during recruiting and Hyde once you're on campus and part of the team. 









						Surviving the Game: Allegations of abuse in Cal's soccer program
					

Women from UC Berkeley's soccer team break their silence about what they allege was emotional abuse, bullying, intimidation, and mistreatment from their long-time coach.




					www.ktvu.com


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## Soccer43

People have different views of what is abuse but everyone is clear about what is a successful program - do they win games?  Do they win championships?  If a coach employs tactics that don’t work to achieve those goals then they should be kicked to the curb just like players are quickly kicked off the team.  Why do AD’s allow poor performance of the coaches year after year but coaches can freely kick players on rosters?  same standards of high expectations for D1 players should be applied to the D1 coaches.  I get so tired of coaches acting like Gods yet get to skate by without accountability for their own performance


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## suzysoccer1

Dude been around a long time. In women’s soccer most schools Cal included don’t care about winning over graduation rates, running a operation neutral budget(or close to), & staying clean in compliance.  College Admin has very little time or appetite for investing in women’s sports beyond lip service. How many girls does it take to for a public university to take some kind of action. He just pulled in 12 recruits to a roster already at 22. 34 players is ridiculous, and is part of the systemic problem in girls soccer from club to college. Have a problem with a player? Cut her, bench her, ostracize her and allienate her from the team and she will quit on her own. Then you can say she was the quiter, she didn’t want true competition, she was weak, couldn’t take it and my favorite She wasn’t that good anyway!  When in reality the coach is weak, and quit, and couldn’t cut it. Those are HIS PLAYERS. At some point where is the accountability? The lie in girls soccer is that 1 plus 1 equals 2. When really 1 plus 1 equals banana. It’s a shell game. Too many schools are talent collectors. Consuming a never ending appetite of greed all to feed their ego. The player or consumer needs to take back their power that for too long has been freely given to coaches, clubs, schools out of fear. They don’t own you or your soul. They the institutions, coaches have access to the soccer player for soccer and related activities. That’s it. I’ve seen this first hand year after year.  Freshman loose their identities, becoming robots, lost and isolated. Too much has been given away in the pursuit of status, playing time, and compliance. No excuse for even 1 player to have to go through what these young women did. Ever. Sorry for the rant, but I hope parents get involved and don’t let these coaches recruit your kids. You recruit them.


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## EOTL

suzysoccer1 said:


> Dude been around a long time. In women’s soccer most schools Cal included don’t care about winning over graduation rates, running a operation neutral budget(or close to), & staying clean in compliance.  College Admin has very little time or appetite for investing in women’s sports beyond lip service. How many girls does it take to for a public university to take some kind of action. He just pulled in 12 recruits to a roster already at 22. 34 players is ridiculous, and is part of the systemic problem in girls soccer from club to college. Have a problem with a player? Cut her, bench her, ostracize her and allienate her from the team and she will quit on her own. Then you can say she was the quiter, she didn’t want true competition, she was weak, couldn’t take it and my favorite She wasn’t that good anyway!  When in reality the coach is weak, and quit, and couldn’t cut it. Those are HIS PLAYERS. At some point where is the accountability? The lie in girls soccer is that 1 plus 1 equals 2. When really 1 plus 1 equals banana. It’s a shell game. Too many schools are talent collectors. Consuming a never ending appetite of greed all to feed their ego. The player or consumer needs to take back their power that for too long has been freely given to coaches, clubs, schools out of fear. They don’t own you or your soul. They the institutions, coaches have access to the soccer player for soccer and related activities. That’s it. I’ve seen this first hand year after year.  Freshman loose their identities, becoming robots, lost and isolated. Too much has been given away in the pursuit of status, playing time, and compliance. No excuse for even 1 player to have to go through what these young women did. Ever. Sorry for the rant, but I hope parents get involved and don’t let these coaches recruit your kids. You recruit them.


Is it a full moon or are you auditioning for a job at KTVU? That is some seriously melodramatic s**t. 

“The lie in girls soccer is that 1 plus 1 equals 2. When really 1 plus 1 equals banana”?

“It’s a shell game”?

“Too many schools are talent collectors. Consuming a never ending appetite of greed all to feed their ego”?

“They don’t own you or your soul.”

“Freshman loose [sic] their identities, becoming robots, lost and isolated”?

Really?


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## suzysoccer1

EOTL said:


> Is it a full moon or are you auditioning for a job at KTVU? That is some seriously melodramatic s**t.
> 
> “The lie in girls soccer is that 1 plus 1 equals 2. When really 1 plus 1 equals banana”?
> 
> “It’s a shell game”?
> 
> “Too many schools are talent collectors. Consuming a never ending appetite of greed all to feed their ego”?
> 
> “They don’t own you or your soul.”
> 
> “Freshman loose [sic] their identities, becoming robots, lost and isolated”?
> 
> Really?


Maybe the point gets lost in too many words for you. So your take is pro coach? Did you read the letters? Your on a soccer forum where we parents talk soccer and your take is what?  F those girls? F that poster trying to defend girls being subjected to bullshit.
So Yeah I’m melodramatic about this so what. If there was anything to be passionate about why not this? Why not support these girls?


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## EOTL

suzysoccer1 said:


> Maybe the point gets lost in too many words for you. So your take is pro coach? Did you read the letters? Your on a soccer forum where we parents talk soccer and your take is what?  F those girls? F that poster trying to defend girls being subjected to bullshit.
> So Yeah I’m melodramatic about this so what. If there was anything to be passionate about why not this? Why not support these girls?


I think you’re caught up in a narrative that does not accurately reflect the overall reality. I think there are far more players aware of what is really happening there than you understand. I think you have bought into a lot of hyperbole coming from a handful of players and not much to back it up.


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## dad4

Maybe, if @EOTL repeats it enough, it will become true.  Like magic and rainbows.

This is why the hazing complaint went to the AD.  People knew they could not trust the coach.  And, given the "punishment" he chose to give, they were right.


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## suzysoccer1

EOTL said:


> I think you’re caught up in a narrative that does not accurately reflect the overall reality. I think there are far more players aware of what is really happening there than you understand. I think you have bought into a lot of hyperbole coming from a handful of players and not much to back it up.


My overarching theme using this article as a reference is watch your kids and be careful in recruiting. Especially now. In regards to the article, everyone has their own narrative. For me I’ve been in this conference a long time. I know what I’ve seen, heard and watched. Don’t wish any program any bad will but a handful of players is enough now. One is enough. No reason this should get this far. But it did, because those in charge allowed for it to. Accountability in all areas all the time not just when it suits a narrative.


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## Giesbock

“Talent collectors“ is scary.  It’s human nature to want the accolades, the love and bragging rights..  When a player has those things, they’re blind to the cost. The quiet, creeping innocuous abusive treatment.


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## espola

suzysoccer1 said:


> Maybe the point gets lost in too many words for you. So your take is pro coach? Did you read the letters? Your on a soccer forum where we parents talk soccer and your take is what?  F those girls? F that poster trying to defend girls being subjected to bullshit.
> So Yeah I’m melodramatic about this so what. If there was anything to be passionate about why not this? Why not support these girls?


if you had stopped at the sentence ending with "22", your post would have made more sense.


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## EOTL

Giesbock said:


> “Talent collectors“ is scary.  It’s human nature to want the accolades, the love and bragging rights..  When a player has those things, they’re blind to the cost. The quiet, creeping innocuous abusive treatment.


It is very easy to disregard the most obvious and actual reason the vast majority of people choose coaching as a line of work. It isn’t some nefarious scary desire to “collect talent”. It is primarily to help people grow and provide them with opportunity. 

It’s funny how a bunch of people here are demanding that the Cal coach be fired because he isn’t winning enough, and then turn around and claim that trying to recruit the best people to do that very thing  constitutes “scary talent collection”. Such a load of b.s.

How often do women’s college coaches even get fired for not winning enough?  Shoot, many coaches have been around 10-20 years who regularly have losing records. Have you ever heard of a women’s college coach getting fired because making the tournament 12 of 13 years isn’t good enough. And anyone who think someone should when they graduate such a high percentage of players as Cal does has some really screwed up priorities.

And as for these “massive rosters” that people are complaining about, how much do those contribute to kids getting into colleges that would otherwise not been accessible to them otherwise? The undeniable truth is that very few of the kids on the Cal roster, and a lot of rosters, would have been admitted without soccer, including the recruited walk ons. Those “massive” rosters provide opportunities to thousands including, apparently many who have delusional expectations and don’t understand that making a team is only part of the battle, but hard work and discipline are also necessary to achieve major goals.

I am not surprised that so many people here reach such bizarre negative inferences when it comes to women’s soccer. That has been my experience with most youth soccer parents.


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## oh canada

EOTL said:


> It is very easy to disregard the most obvious and actual reason the vast majority of people choose coaching as a line of work. It isn’t some nefarious scary desire to “collect talent”. It is primarily to help people grow and provide them with opportunity.
> 
> It’s funny how a bunch of people here are demanding that the Cal coach be fired because he isn’t winning enough, and then turn around and claim that trying to recruit the best people to do that very thing  constitutes “scary talent collection”. Such a load of b.s.
> 
> How often do women’s college coaches even get fired for not winning enough?  Shoot, many coaches have been around 10-20 years who regularly have losing records. Have you ever heard of a women’s college coach getting fired because making the tournament 12 of 13 years isn’t good enough. And anyone who think someone should when they graduate such a high percentage of players as Cal does has some really screwed up priorities.
> 
> And as for these “massive rosters” that people are complaining about, how much do those contribute to kids getting into colleges that would otherwise not been accessible to them otherwise? The undeniable truth is that very few of the kids on the Cal roster, and a lot of rosters, would have been admitted without soccer, including the recruited walk ons. Those “massive” rosters provide opportunities to thousands including, apparently many who have delusional expectations and don’t understand that making a team is only part of the battle, but hard work and discipline are also necessary to achieve major goals.
> 
> I am not surprised that so many people here reach such bizarre negative inferences when it comes to women’s soccer. That has been my experience with most youth soccer parents.


Cal Berkeley women's soccer coach job should be one of the top 25 in the country---a plum post for any coach--so should be fairly easy to find a coach with some organizational skills who doesn't abuse players.  Is that such a high bar to achieve?  You don't get multiple accusations of specific abuse unless there is some real THERE there.  Indiana held onto Bob Knight until there was actual video of him choking out a player in practice.  Hopefully, Cal won't have the same appalling standard of proof requirement.  Debating the win-loss record and talent collection issues are red herrings.  We're talking about raising and treating other human beings.  If my daughter is a 2021 commit, I'm putting out feelers for other options immediately.  Why put your girl in a place for four years where there is ANY known risk of abuse (let alone LIKELY risk)?   Cal would be smart to find someone else.  Guaranteed there will not be any more #1 recruiting classes as long as he stays.


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## EOTL

oh canada said:


> Cal Berkeley women's soccer coach job should be one of the top 25 in the country---a plum post for any coach--so should be fairly easy to find a coach with some organizational skills who doesn't abuse players.  Is that such a high bar to achieve?  You don't get multiple accusations of specific abuse unless there is some real THERE there.  Indiana held onto Bob Knight until there was actual video of him choking out a player in practice.  Hopefully, Cal won't have the same appalling standard of proof requirement.  Debating the win-loss record and talent collection issues are red herrings.  We're talking about raising and treating other human beings.  If my daughter is a 2021 commit, I'm putting out feelers for other options immediately.  Why put your girl in a place for four years where there is ANY known risk of abuse (let alone LIKELY risk)?   Cal would be smart to find someone else.  Guaranteed there will not be any more #1 recruiting classes as long as he stays.


You are seriously comparing the Cal coach to a guy who who choked a player, hit others, threw chairs and regularly made racist comments? 

There is no known “risk of abuse”. There are a handful of former players who are unhappy about a handful of incidents, and the severity of the hyperbole compared to the lack of severity of the incidents described over a 10 year period raises a more questions about them than it does the Cal coach IMO.


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## oh canada

EOTL said:


> You are seriously comparing the Cal coach to a guy who who choked a player, hit others, threw chairs and regularly made racist comments?
> 
> There is no known “risk of abuse”. There are a handful of former players who are unhappy about a handful of incidents, and the severity of the hyperbole compared to the lack of severity of the incidents described over a 10 year period raises a more questions about them than it does the Cal coach IMO.


Interesting.  Based on prior posts I would have thought for sure you would champion standing up for the powerless. 

Btw, that's what they said about The General for years.  And, how the typical blame the player mantra goes.  Aww, she's just not tough enough; just unhappy about playing time; just an unstable girl.  BS.  Did you read the players' letters?  I'm not aware of any other Top 40 women's soccer coaches with abuse claims alleged against them are you?  Because there are multiple allegations at Cal, that creates an environment with a "_risk _of abuse" greater than other schools where there are no allegations. Good on these young women to courageously come forward.


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## Giesbock

I can agree with your last point.  As the dad of a well rounded student athlete, what I’m driving at has nothing to do with a coaches win loss record or a singular instance of abusive coaching methods.

I think collegiate coaches in non-revenue generating sports are probably retained more for their stature as role models and how they embody the values that a particular institution is trying to project into the world.  Presidents office, Fundraising and PR departments drive that.

I called talent collecting scary because it sets aside any real thought of what’s in a young person’s best interest. It may put them in a situation where they become enamored with the name recognition and prestige of a program and loose sight of what may be best for them. 

Better to be the head of the snake or tail of the dragon?

Better to warm up alongside a National team player but sit on the bench?  Or better to be a leader, playing big minutes and coming out of school ready to be a force in the world rather than broken down and disappointed with how you were treated?  

Just adding my two cents to an important conversation...you want to bash my viewpoint as stupid or dumb, please feel free.


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## eastbaysoccer

If you compare CAL to other colleges with similar academics like UCLA, USC and Stanford Neil has underperformed for years and should have been replaced years ago.  There are MANY great coaches that would LOVE to coach at CAL.


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## Soccerfan2

Giesbock said:


> I can agree with your last point.  As the dad of a well rounded student athlete, what I’m driving at has nothing to do with a coaches win loss record or a singular instance of abusive coaching methods.
> 
> I think collegiate coaches in non-revenue generating sports are probably retained more for their stature as role models and how they embody the values that a particular institution is trying to project into the world.  Presidents office, Fundraising and PR departments drive that.
> 
> I called talent collecting scary because it sets aside any real thought of what’s in a young person’s best interest. It may put them in a situation where they become enamored with the name recognition and prestige of a program and loose sight of what may be best for them.
> 
> Better to be the head of the snake or tail of the dragon?
> 
> Better to warm up alongside a National team player but sit on the bench?  Or better to be a leader, playing big minutes and coming out of school ready to be a force in the world rather than broken down and disappointed with how you were treated?
> 
> Just adding my two cents to an important conversation...you want to bash my viewpoint as stupid or dumb, please feel free.


Re: “talent collecting”, I think “better” differs for each person. Some athletes are happy to go into a top program for a bench spot because they want the school for academics, or they want to be in the best soccer environment possible, or any other number of reasons beyond school name recognition. Sitting the bench also does not necessarily equate to being broken down. How well prepared you are for success in life beyond soccer has a lot more to do with how you handle adversity than whether you started for your college team. 
Of course there are other players who’d prefer a team where they can immediately contribute, and we all hope coaches are upfront and honest in the recruiting process about where the player stands coming in.


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## Soccer43

Giesbock said:


> I can agree with your last point.  As the dad of a well rounded student athlete, what I’m driving at has nothing to do with a coaches win loss record or a singular instance of abusive coaching methods.
> 
> I think collegiate coaches in non-revenue generating sports are probably retained more for their stature as role models and how they embody the values that a particular institution is trying to project into the world.  Presidents office, Fundraising and PR departments drive that.
> 
> I called talent collecting scary because it sets aside any real thought of what’s in a young person’s best interest. It may put them in a situation where they become enamored with the name recognition and prestige of a program and loose sight of what may be best for them.
> 
> Better to be the head of the snake or tail of the dragon?
> 
> Better to warm up alongside a National team player but sit on the bench?  Or better to be a leader, playing big minutes and coming out of school ready to be a force in the world rather than broken down and disappointed with how you were treated?
> 
> Just adding my two cents to an important conversation...you want to bash my viewpoint as stupid or dumb, please feel free.


years ago when our first recruiting journey started we had a narrow focus on what we were looking for and what was considered "success".  As with many journeys, life takes twists and turns and you end up somewhere you never imagined but with the perfect path.  I have come to know that I would much prefer my player to be happy in their college days, feeling a strong connection with their teammates, pride in their accomplishments on the field, and with a clear sense of a path after college from those defining years of young adulthood.  It didn't matter what level of play it was.  Originally, D1 was the only prize, at a top 20 school with the hopes of winning conference and NCAA championships.  None of that really matters unless your player has visions of WNT and a professional career after college.  And in terms of D1, D2, or D3 - would you rather your player be playing on a low-level D1 team that is at the bottom of the conference every year, going nowhere and nothing to accomplish or would you rather your player be on a strong D3 team, playing every minute, winning conference titles, looking to a national championship, and loving her team with a coach that inspires and motivates?  Keep your eye on the prize of excellent education and your player's overall wellbeing.  What is the point of getting to an amazing college like Cal and fighting against that kind of environment day in day out?  Whether you call it abuse or a tough coaching style it is still a bad experience that doesn't produce much of anything positive on or off the field.


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## crush

Soccer43 said:


> years ago when* our* first recruiting journey started* we* had a narrow focus on what* we were looking for* and what was considered "success".  As with many journeys, life takes twists and turns and you end up somewhere you never imagined but with the perfect path.  *I *have come to know that* I *would much prefer to be happy in their college days, feeling a strong connection with their teammates, pride in their accomplishments on the field, and with a clear sense of a path after college from those defining years of young adulthood.  It didn't matter what level of play it was.  Originally, D1 was the only prize, at a top 20 school with the hopes of winning conference and NCAA championships.  None of that really matters unless your player has visions of WNT and a professional career after college.  And in terms of D1, D2, or D3 - would you rather your player be playing on a low-level D1 team that is at the bottom of the conference every year, going nowhere and nothing to accomplish or would you rather your player be on a strong D3 team, playing every minute, winning conference titles, looking to a national championship, and loving her team with a coach that inspires and motivates?  Keep your eye on the prize of excellent education and your player's overall wellbeing.  What is the point of getting to an amazing college like Cal and fighting against that kind of environment day in day out?  Whether you call it abuse or a tough coaching style it is still a bad experience that doesn't produce much of anything positive on or off the field.


Good takes 43.  I was really into my dd soccer games up until the clubs started to push college nights to my little girl in 7th & 8th grade.  I was shocked!!!  Any who, today I'm just helping my player try to find free soccer games so she can ball for free with her friends.  Pick up soccer.  All this college stuff is up to her and her alone.  She already heard the truth from D1 coaches and Docs who speak the truth, although it hurts. I agree the top 20 ((trying to win the Cup)) is always looking to win and is not always for everyone.  8 out of 10 girls did not end up balling for their U when they committed as 8th & 9th graders.  Power 5 is big time and these coaches coach to win bro.  One Doc told me this, "Playing in top college program is a freaking job for a girl and you can;t get into any kind of trouble and you better get good grades and not even think of having fun in college.  It's a job!!!!!" he said.  Socal girls get it the worst he said when they show up as freshman at ___________________________________.  He said one of his former YNT players is a great example.  Committed in 9th grade.  Sr year in HS took a chill pill and had a great summer of fun and parties. Doc said she showed up to first practice ((beat test, juggle test, and this test and that test.  All to see who is fit and committed to win the Cup)).  Mostly the first day is to weed out folks and it's usually ALL about running.  This poor socal girl was puking and not happy on the first day.  Even tried to call her old man in the parking lot to come bail her out.  The female coach was not all too happy either with her top recruit showing up out of shape and not focused to win the Cup.  Doc said ((not making this up)) coach grabbed her by her pony tail and told her as she was crying in pain "Listen you little bitch, if you think your going to call daddy to help you like he did in club, you can leave now!!!!"  She quit that day but still graduated from the school.  This is the reality folks.  Two sides to every story.  
My dd hates yellers and those who fat shame or just tear the person to pieces.  She has a lot of homework to do regarding the right coach.  She actually laughs at coaches who yell and put down females.  She had one dude that turned all red when he got upset at her or others like her.  One time he was so mad that she started to just laugh at him.  He got even louder and she laughed even more,  He called me to tell me this will not go well for her in college.  They talked one on one and he said sorry and she said sorry.  He did say that the more he yells at a player the more he cares about the player.  If he stops yelling, you suck and will ride the pine or quit.  I like a little yell to wake up some but I'm a dude.  Most woman I know dont like being yelled at by men.  So I think the coaches should stop yelling at the girls, MOO!!!!!!


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## Copa9

EOTL said:


> It is very easy to disregard the most obvious and actual reason the vast majority of people choose coaching as a line of work. It isn’t some nefarious scary desire to “collect talent”. It is primarily to help people grow and provide them with opportunity.
> 
> It’s funny how a bunch of people here are demanding that the Cal coach be fired because he isn’t winning enough, and then turn around and claim that trying to recruit the best people to do that very thing  constitutes “scary talent collection”. Such a load of b.s.
> 
> How often do women’s college coaches even get fired for not winning enough?  Shoot, many coaches have been around 10-20 years who regularly have losing records. Have you ever heard of a women’s college coach getting fired because making the tournament 12 of 13 years isn’t good enough. And anyone who think someone should when they graduate such a high percentage of players as Cal does has some really screwed up priorities.
> 
> And as for these “massive rosters” that people are complaining about, how much do those contribute to kids getting into colleges that would otherwise not been accessible to them otherwise? The undeniable truth is that very few of the kids on the Cal roster, and a lot of rosters, would have been admitted without soccer, including the recruited walk ons. Those “massive” rosters provide opportunities to thousands including, apparently many who have delusional expectations and don’t understand that making a team is only part of the battle, but hard work and discipline are also necessary to achieve major goals.
> 
> I am not surprised that so many people here reach such bizarre negative inferences when it comes to women’s soccer. That has been my experience with most youth soccer parents.


Recruited walk ons? A walk on is an individual who was admitted to the college/university then chose to try out for a team. Then I guess you could say if the coach wanted the individual and invited him/her to join the team, that person was "recruited".


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## espola

Copa9 said:


> Recruited walk ons? A walk on is an individual who was admitted to the college/university then chose to try out for a team. Then I guess you could say if the coach wanted the individual and invited him/her to join the team, that person was "recruited".


People are sometimes recruited by a coach with no promise of scholarship, just help with admissions.


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## Giesbock

Looking beyond the situation at Cal, does anyone know of other coaches that are recognized for being positive role models??

I’m guessing (and hopeful) that this is a Much longer list than the coaches that have been tagged as exerting tough and questionable emotional leverage on players.  ...  

With a 2022 winger who’s considering some options, any programs you can vouch for will be appreciated!  Thanks


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## EOTL

Copa9 said:


> Recruited walk ons? A walk on is an individual who was admitted to the college/university then chose to try out for a team. Then I guess you could say if the coach wanted the individual and invited him/her to join the team, that person was "recruited".


There is not a single “walk on” on the Cal roster who was admitted to the university and then tried out for the team. All of the “walk ons” received favorable admission treatment for the purpose of being on the soccer team.  The only thing they didn’t get is athletic scholarship money. This is consistent with most D1 programs. That is such common knowledge that your failure to know this makes pretty much everything you say not credible.


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## Giesbock

Favorable Admission Treatment = Why we invest in club soccer.


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## crush

EOTL said:


> There is not a single “walk on” on the Cal roster who was admitted to the university and then tried out for the team. All of the “walk ons” received favorable admission treatment for the purpose of being on the soccer team.  The only thing they didn’t get is athletic scholarship money. This is consistent with most D1 programs. That is such common knowledge that your failure to know this makes pretty much everything you say not credible.


Copa kid is going D1 so I would say they have a say in all this.  I might not agree with Copa on many things, but Copa has experience and knows what's up.  I look at it like this. 

Coach:  I want you to play for our program kid

Poor Class kid, Middle Class Kid and Rich Class Kid:  Oh wow, really?

Coach: Yes.  How are parents $$$$ and what grades you got

Poor Kid:  We are in the poor house and I got 4.2

Rich Kid:  We are so rich my parents will demand that they pay so others can join the team who need more funds.  I got 3.4

Middle Class Kid:  Tough times coach but hanging in there.  I got 4.0 

Coach:  Excellent!!!  I got a roster spot for all three of you and free tutors and priority scheduling.

Poor class kid pays zero
Rich class Kid pays zero
Middle class kid-  Half off and then come up with the other $100,000 and more in loans and basically SOL when your older with debt.  Not cool but it is what it is at this point.  Good luck to everyone and I honestly hope everyone get's what they want


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> Favorable Admission Treatment = Why we invest in club soccer.


FAT?


----------



## Giesbock

Sorry...should have said why “I” invest in club soccer. Didn’t mean to speak for others...

Of course when I watch my kid, I still harbor the dream of a YNT camp invite, or call from Coach Ratcliffe... Ha! 

But the more likely scenario is that through soccer, she improves her chance of getting into one of her reach schools.  

I’d be interested to hear why others invest in club soccer.


----------



## dad4

Giesbock said:


> Sorry...should have said why “I” invest in club soccer. Didn’t mean to speak for others...
> 
> Of course when I watch my kid, I still harbor the dream of a YNT camp invite, or call from Coach Ratcliffe... Ha!
> 
> But the more likely scenario is that through soccer, she improves her chance of getting into one of her reach schools.
> 
> I’d be interested to hear why others invest in club soccer.


My kid plays club because that’s where the other good players are.   

Nothing to do with YNT or college admissions.  She wants to go to Stanford because she wants to play there, not the other way around.   Eventually it will occur to her that colleges also offer classes.  Just hasn’t happened yet.


----------



## notintheface

Giesbock said:


> I’d be interested to hear why others invest in club soccer.


The answer to this question should always be "learning to be part of a long-lasting cohesive team unit, working towards a common goal, with friends that they make outside of school, having an activity that will teach them about winning and losing, and teaching them about the importance of physical activity, and help them be a more well-rounded person." Please don't "invest" into club soccer hoping for a scholarship.


----------



## myself

notintheface said:


> The answer to this question should always be "learning to be part of a long-lasting cohesive team unit, working towards a common goal, with friends that they make outside of school, having an activity that will teach them about winning and losing, and teaching them about the importance of physical activity, and help them be a more well-rounded person." Please don't "invest" into club soccer hoping for a scholarship.


You are right...for a certain level of player. There are cheaper ways to learn these lessons than driving all over the southwest and paying the going rate for your ecnl club's fees.


----------



## msoccerm

You all are giving me the impression that the majority of female players are just playing soccer for a college scholarship or chance to go to a better university then they could get into without soccer - Meaning once they get into their school they just do what they need to do, have fun with teammates and graduate at the end having no ambitions of playing professionally.

If so, how serious are these girls about improving their soccer skills/IQ whilst in college? 

I'm starting to worry about the level in college - bar Stanford, UCLA, etc.


----------



## notintheface

msoccerm said:


> ...and graduate at the end having no ambitions of playing professionally.


FYI the league maximum salary for the NWSL is $50,000 before TAM (which is only available for the best-of-the-best players). Players for Angel City are almost guaranteed to be renting cheap 2br apartments in Ktown together, for the proximity to the Banc. Ambition is fantastic and getting a degree in order to get a good well-paying job in an interesting field should take precedence.


----------



## Giesbock

Our daughter definitely wants to play high level collegiate soccer and then go on to play pro if she makes it there. She’s fast, athletic, great skill set, tough, so she checks boxes...  Maybe she’ll make it.

I’ve just come to the conclusion that as “the investor”, it’s best to look at it as an investment in her getting into a school she might not otherwise get into... eg Cal, Stanford, Yale, Princeton.  

As notinthrface reminded us/me, there are so many intangible life lessons that young soccer players have already gained that even if college play doesn’t work out, it’s still been a great journey for her and us.


----------



## msoccerm

notintheface said:


> Players for Angel City are almost guaranteed to be renting cheap 2br apartments in Ktown together, for the proximity to the Banc. Ambition is fantastic and getting a degree in order to get a good well-paying job in an interesting field should take precedence.


I will always agree that getting a university or trade education is important. And the overall US college experience is amazing and being on a college team can be a priceless experience. But last I remembered college kids aren't living in luxury condos and athletes are basically doing manual labor for free. What can't a player do a degree online and be paid to play?



Giesbock said:


> I’ve just come to the conclusion that as “the investor”, it’s best to look at it as an investment in her getting into a school she might not otherwise get into... eg Cal, Stanford, Yale, Princeton.


If she could not get into those schools because of grades - won't she struggle with the academics? Will she have to do a BS major - something that won't lead to a job after college? If it's because of cost - will the scholarship cover the full tuition and board?

With covid - I am wondering if more and more schools (especially ivies) will drop sports. I'm not talking about football and basketball. But how many people even care about State U womens soccer? Will sports scholarships disappear ?


----------



## outside!

msoccerm said:


> With covid - I am wondering if more and more schools (especially ivies) will drop sports. I'm not talking about football and basketball. But how many people even care about State U womens soccer? Will sports scholarships disappear ?


Title IX


----------



## Copa9

EOTL said:


> There is not a single “walk on” on the Cal roster who was admitted to the university and then tried out for the team. All of the “walk ons” received favorable admission treatment for the purpose of being on the soccer team.  The only thing they didn’t get is athletic scholarship money. This is consistent with most D1 programs. That is such common knowledge that your failure to know this makes pretty much everything you say not credible.


Not true!  A family member was not recruited. He chose to apply to the top soccer school and was admitted on his own merits.  Tried out as a "walk on". A real "walk on". Made the team, sat out the first two games,  a player was injured and he was put in and never left!  He became an all WWC player on a top D1 school. The team made it to the NCAA final game only to loose in double over time and then PK's!  This team was ranked #1 when he made the team.  So yay, what were you saying?? Oh and by the way, he obviously had no money his first year but had a full ride by the time he was a senior!  Most of the top academic universities want the students to meet all entrance requirements.  Only the top ranked players usually get a pass on the gpa requirement of being within the AI.  The A1 is on a sliding scale, combining students class rank, school rank, test scores and grades. Schools will purposely recruit good players with high gpa's to balance out the academic gpa's of some great players who don't meet that requirement. Believe what you want, I have been there and then some. That is for D1 programs, maybe not the same for D2 and D3. But then again, with the pandemic situation and many universities not requiring SAT or ACT scores a lot of students may squeeze in that wouldn't have met entrance test score requirements.


----------



## Wwood

msoccerm said:


> I will always agree that getting a university or trade education is important. And the overall US college experience is amazing and being on a college team can be a priceless experience. But last I remembered college kids aren't living in luxury condos and athletes are basically doing manual labor for free. What can't a player do a degree online and be paid to play?
> 
> 
> 
> If she could not get into those schools because of grades - won't she struggle with the academics? Will she have to do a BS major - something that won't lead to a job after college? If it's because of cost - will the scholarship cover the full tuition and board?
> 
> With covid - I am wondering if more and more schools (especially ivies) will drop sports. I'm not talking about football and basketball. But how many people even care about State U womens soccer? Will sports scholarships disappear ?


Ivies or not, Women’s soccer will be one of the last sports to be cut so majority if not all shouldn’t have to worry about that as long as Football and BBall exists. Now these programs could reduce their budget for sure. I can see schools dropping their second assistants and making it volunteer positions and what not.


----------



## EOTL

Copa9 said:


> Not true!  A family member was not recruited. He chose to apply to the top soccer school and was admitted on his own merits.  Tried out as a "walk on". A real "walk on". Made the team, sat out the first two games,  a player was injured and he was put in and never left!  He became an all WWC player on a top D1 school. The team made it to the NCAA final game only to loose in double over time and then PK's!  This team was ranked #1 when he made the team.  So yay, what were you saying?? Oh and by the way, he obviously had no money his first year but had a full ride by the time he was a senior!  Most of the top academic universities want the students to meet all entrance requirements.  Only the top ranked players usually get a pass on the gpa requirement of being within the AI.  The A1 is on a sliding scale, combining students class rank, school rank, test scores and grades. Schools will purposely recruit good players with high gpa's to balance out the academic gpa's of some great players who don't meet that requirement. Believe what you want, I have been there and then some. That is for D1 programs, maybe not the same for D2 and D3. But then again, with the pandemic situation and many universities not requiring SAT or ACT scores a lot of students may squeeze in that wouldn't have met entrance test score requirements.


The key word in your post - and the reason you are wrong -  is “he”.  Men’s and women’s soccer are different things. What you describe is not what happens in women’s soccer in major programs, including at Cal.


----------



## dk_b

EOTL said:


> The key word in your post - and the reason you are wrong -  is “he”.  Men’s and women’s soccer are different things. What you describe is not what happens in women’s soccer in major programs, including at Cal.


a single anecdote may be the exception that proves the rule, esp because your point was presently on the roster, but I do know a former player (graduated several years ago but she’s still in her 20s so not that long) who had committed to play D2, got admitted to Cal, visited the coach (who had no idea who she was), was offered a roster spot and played 2 years before focusing on athletics. But that’s a shot in the dark, like the player who shows up at a random ID camp as a no name who earns a spot. It happens but it is exceptionally rare.


----------



## Giesbock

msoccerm said:


> I will always agree that getting a university or trade education is important. And the overall US college experience is amazing and being on a college team can be a priceless experience. But last I remembered college kids aren't living in luxury condos and athletes are basically doing manual labor for free. What can't a player do a degree online and be paid to play?
> 
> 
> 
> If she could not get into those schools because of grades - won't she struggle with the academics? Will she have to do a BS major - something that won't lead to a job after college? If it's because of cost - will the scholarship cover the full tuition and board?
> 
> With covid - I am wondering if more and more schools (especially ivies) will drop sports. I'm not talking about football and basketball. But how many people even care about State U womens soccer? Will sports scholarships disappear ?


You’re right...can never be too far of a reach just for sport. Needs to be a solid student or it makes no sense trying to get into an Ivy on basis of soccer.
One thing to verbally commit to play at Stanford or Cal.  Another to get past the Admissions Office!


----------



## eastbaysoccer

More athletes describe years of mistreatment by Cal soccer coach
					

Nearly two dozen current and former Cal women's soccer players have contacted KTVU to share disturbing accounts of verbal abuse, bullying, and mistreatment by their long-time coach. Their stories stretch back more than a decade and they all say they were brushed off when they complained.




					www.google.com
				




Second follow up w cal with more women coming forward.  The athletic director better act fast or he will be swept away with Neil too.  Cal needs to pick their poison.  Litigation from a growing number of cal Alums or litigation from Neil when he’s fired.


----------



## outside!

Is anyone surprised by this?


----------



## warrior49

My daughter back in 2015: "I'm thinking about Cal." Her club coach: "I'd rather you play at a D2 school than have the joy of the game ruined by that A**hole."


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> Is anyone surprised by this?


I am not sure how I feel about it.  Full disclosure, I like Neil and I’d like to think that there’s a high probability that my kid will play for him in the near future.  So, I don’t want to be dismissive of what these young ladies have experienced  and although I am concerned, I am not yet convinced there is a problem.

From the letters I read, I kind of felt some of the ladies lack grit and wanted to be coddled and have their hands held in a cutthroat competitive environment.  Seriously?

Many of the things these ladies are complaining about are present in ALL competitive environments.  I remember @MakeAPlay mentioning the hunger games at UCLA and warning about the high transfer rate at FSU.  What about the high turnover rates of associates at accounting and law firms? Is it Neil or are these ladies having a hard time accepting the finality of the biggest failure of their lives?

I am a “straight shooter” and that is one of the qualities I like most about Neil.  I have no problem with him being direct.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> *although I am concerned, I am not yet convinced there is a problem.
> 
> From the letters I read, I kind of felt some of the ladies lack grit and wanted to be coddled and have their hands held in a cutthroat competitive environment.  Seriously?
> 
> Many of the things these ladies are complaining about are present in ALL competitive environments.  I remember @MakeAPlay mentioning the hunger games at UCLA and warning about the high transfer rate at FSU.  What about the high turnover rates of associates at accounting and law firms? Is it Neil or are these ladies having a hard time accepting the finality of the biggest failure of their lives?
> 
> I am a “straight shooter” and that is one of the qualities I like most about Neil.  I have no problem with him being direct.
> *



I'm old school bro and shoot straight too.  Keep in mind, these were all little girls playing soccer and their sharing their story.  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  We all can and should do better as men.  I've made a few mistakes in my life and I can own it.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> I'm old school bro and shoot straight too.  Keep in mind, these were all little girls playing soccer and their sharing their story.  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  We all can and should do better as men.  I've made a few mistakes in my life and I can own it.
> 
> View attachment 9707


Nope.  Not little girls.  We are talking about young ladies.  If you were Neil, how would you inform a young lady that you felt that you had been hoodwinked, bamboozled, she sucks, doesn’t have what it takes, and you want your money back so you can find a player that can get the job done?


----------



## Giesbock

@MacDre- thanks for giving a current, personal perspective.  Tough situation - always two sides of a story...


----------



## baller

MacDre said:


> I am not sure how I feel about it.  Full disclosure, I like Neil and I’d like to think that there’s a high probability that my kid will play for him in the near future.  So, I don’t want to be dismissive of what these young ladies have experienced  and although I am concerned, I am not yet convinced there is a problem.
> 
> From the letters I read, I kind of felt some of the ladies lack grit and wanted to be coddled and have their hands held in a cutthroat competitive environment.  Seriously?
> 
> Many of the things these ladies are complaining about are present in ALL competitive environments.  I remember @MakeAPlay mentioning the hunger games at UCLA and warning about the high transfer rate at FSU.  What about the high turnover rates of associates at accounting and law firms? Is it Neil or are these ladies having a hard time accepting the finality of the biggest failure of their lives?
> 
> I am a “straight shooter” and that is one of the qualities I like most about Neil.  I have no problem with him being direct.


Perhaps not unlike @MacDre, my experience with Neil has always been positive.  I'm sure there were things that could have been handled better/differently (there always are), but trial by media is unfortunate.  The fact that Cal, one of the greatest institutions in the world, has stood behind him to date is telling.  Maybe that changes.  Either way, not sure anybody wins here.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Nope.  Not little girls.  We are talking about young ladies.  If you were Neil, how would you inform a young lady that you felt that you had been hoodwinked, bamboozled, she sucks, doesn’t have what it takes, and you want your money back so you can find a player that can get the job done?


I'm talking about the system the young ladies were brought up in as young girls.  Cal is awesome school.  I dont know coach or the girls.  Maybe they can all talk and make it better.  I do agree with others that many like his style.  We should fix the wrongs why we all have time to do it.  Teachers come on here all the time so they can chime in to help fix these problems.  Most girls dont like getting yelled at, can we agree on that?


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> I'm talking about the system the young ladies were brought up in as young girls.  Cal is awesome school.  I dont know coach or the girls.  Maybe they can all talk and make it better.  I do agree with others that many like his style.  We should fix the wrongs why we all have time to do it.  Teachers come on here all the time so they can chime in to help fix these problems.  Most girls dont like getting yelled at, can we agree on that?


No one likes getting yelled but it is part of life. I like my kid playing sports because it’s a microcosm of the real world.  The women that I served in the United States Marine Corps didn’t like getting yelled at either but they were forced to learn that shit rolls downhill so don’t stay at the bottom and they learned how to improvise, adapt, and overcome obstacles. Maybe these young ladies just don’t have what it takes and that’s okay.  I have failed in my life and know that if it doesn’t kill you, it’ll make you stronger.

You make women seem weak.


----------



## msoccerm

There are 3 sides to every story. I will never condone coaches abusing their players, but it must be frustrating for coaches - after all it seems a large majority of girls play soccer to get a college scholarship or to get into a specific university. Only a small minority want to go pro. So although the girls are competing to get on the field once they are on the team are they trying to continually improve themselves technically or tactically or are they just going through the motions to not lose the scholarship? I am sure that there are a lot of girls that did what they needed to do to get into a Pac-12 team to get their parents off of their back and once on a team they are over it because they never loved soccer to begin with.


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> There are 3 sides to every story. I will never condone coaches abusing their players, but it must be frustrating for coaches - after all it seems a large majority of girls play soccer to get a college scholarship or to get into a specific university. Only a small minority want to go pro. So although the girls are competing to get on the field once they are on the team are they trying to continually improve themselves technically or tactically or are they just going through the motions to not lose the scholarship? I am sure that there are a lot of girls that did what they needed to do to get into a Pac-12 team to get their parents off of their back and once on a team they are over it because they never loved soccer to begin with.


I’m not okay with abuse.  Neil may lack tact but I have not seen anything to suggest abuse.
I think all of the young ladies that gave their testimony wanted to go pro and was seeking Neil’s support and encouragement and had their feelings hurt when they were rejected due to not being good enough.  If they only wanted to go to Cal, they could quit and tell Neil to fuck off.  These ladies are struggling with crushed dreams.
I don’t look at D1 as a development experience.  Folks should be developed when they arrived.  D1 should be viewed as a finishing school for developed players seeking professional opportunities.

The fact that many are expecting development  and hand holding is indicative of unrealistic expectations on behalf of those players.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> No one likes getting yelled but it is part of life. I like my kid playing sports because it’s a microcosm of the real world.  The women that I served in the United States Marine Corps didn’t like getting yelled at either but they were forced to learn that shit rolls downhill so don’t stay at the bottom and they learned how to improvise, adapt, and overcome obstacles. Maybe these young ladies just don’t have what it takes and that’s okay.  I have failed in my life and know that if it doesn’t kill you, it’ll make you stronger.
> 
> You make women seem weak.


So Kicker likes this?  Whatever dude.  Dre, soccer is not the Marines and no coach should fat shame woman or young girls.  I heard coaches call out 8th graders for gaining a few Lbs.  You guys suck and you can have this old soccer if it stands.  It's all yours.  You can have it.  Tell you what Kicker, have at it brah.  I'm out!!!!


----------



## crush

One coach was getting mad at a young girl and he says, "are you on your period again."  "Stop crying and dont tell your dad everything I say on the field."  True hero's in coaching young ladies.  BS coaches need to get lessons on how to talk ((not yell) at girls and females and how to help through a body the males no nothing about.  Fat shaming is for losers.  I'm appalled at some of you.


----------



## crush

Is yelling disrespectful?
You are OFF if you *yell* or are *disrespectful* in any way. This is true regardless of what the other person has done or is doing. Their behavior does not give you the *green light to be harsh or verbally abusive* (such as *yelling*, swearing at, name calling or belittling someone).  Just coaches with power & control.  U Little Female Marines need some tough love from drill Sargant?  BS!!!!


----------



## notintheface

msoccerm said:


> I am sure that there are a lot of girls that did what they needed to do to get into a Pac-12 team to get their parents off of their back and once on a team they are over it because they never loved soccer to begin with.


This, right here. They loved soccer, but they also didn't know how to tell their fucking helicopter parents that hey, it's just a game that I like to play with my friends.

This is why I will always always always tell parents to talk to their kids about keeping their grades up and pick the school based on what they want to do, not the "name" school that will put them on a team. Parents absolutely do not understand the burnout aspect and they push their kids in the 13-14-15 range in order to prep them for that 16-17-18 runup to get their kids "on a D1 team!!!!!1!!!!" and then wonder why their dd starts smoking pot like it's going out of style their freshman year.


----------



## tjsoccer

The central theme is that he is trying to get girls to quit who are under performing to their scholarship (or  expectations).  This isn't uncommon in College athletics, and I'm sure it is a bigger deal now that the Power 5 have 4 year scholarships.  

Even though he may not be criminally abusive, he does sound like a big baby and I wouldn't play for him (not that he would ask me).  I just don't think those tactics work that well to improve play.  Maybe the athletically gifted, multi-sport athletes of years ago had a longer runway to reach their potential, and applying that sort of pressure seemed to work.  But these days, the kid's youth career has been so dominated by a single sport and personal trainers, that I'll bet they reach their breaking point a little quicker (and the come into programs closer to their ceiling).  

It is notable that we aren't hearing from ex-players who support him.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> So Kicker likes this?  Whatever dude.  Dre, soccer is not the Marines and no coach should fat shame woman or young girls.  I heard coaches call out 8th graders for gaining a few Lbs.  You guys suck and you can have this old soccer if it stands.  It's all yours.  You can have it.  Tell you what Kicker, have at it brah.  I'm out!!!!


I get that D1 soccer is not the Marines.  I was in the Marines and I have several friends and family that played D1 and pro sports.  In my humble opinion, the Marines is way easier than D1 or pro sports.

I am on the fence about fat shaming.  When I was in H.S. I was tall and skinny and wanted go pro in football like damn near all of my friends.  Only problem was that I’m not some genetic freak like my patna’s.  So, when I showed up for double days everyone on the team laughed at me.  The coach made me do all Carolina drill with Hannibal Navies, and I got trucked every time.  So if coaches could skinny shame me and bully me into quitting because I didn’t have a good football physique; I didn’t quit, I was starting ball boy!  Why cant ladies, be told they to do some “push backs” and loose some damn weight?


----------



## crush

notintheface said:


> *This is why I will always always always tell parents to talk to their kids about keeping their grades up and pick the school based on what they want to do, not the "name" school that will put them on a team*. Parents absolutely do not understand the burnout aspect and they push their kids in the 13-14-15 range in order to prep them for that 16-17-18 runup to get their kids "on a D1 team!!!!!1!!!!" and then wonder why their dd starts smoking pot like it's going out of style their freshman year.


Are you a coach Face?  Where you coach at?  Doc?  Let's not forget, my kid got pushed for decision in 7th and 8th grade.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I get that D1 soccer is not the Marines.  I was in the Marines and I have several friends and family that played D1 and pro sports.  In my humble opinion, the Marines is way easier than D1 or pro sports.
> 
> *I am on the fence about fat shaming.*  When I was in H.S. I was tall and skinny and wanted go pro in football like damn near all of my friends.  Only problem was that I’m not some genetic freak like my patna’s.  So, when I showed up for double days everyone on the team laughed at me.  The coach made me do all Carolina drill with Hannibal Navies, and I got trucked every time.  So if coaches could skinny shame me and bully me into quitting because I didn’t have a good football physique; I didn’t quit, I was starting ball boy!  Why cant ladies, be told they to do some “push backs” and loose some damn weight?


Typical male response.  You need help dude.


----------



## dad4

tjsoccer said:


> The central theme is that he is trying to get girls to quit who are under performing to their scholarship (or  expectations).  This isn't uncommon in College athletics, and I'm sure it is a bigger deal now that the Power 5 have 4 year scholarships.
> 
> Even though he may not be criminally abusive, he does sound like a big baby and I wouldn't play for him (not that he would ask me).  I just don't think those tactics work that well to improve play.  Maybe the athletically gifted, multi-sport athletes of years ago had a longer runway to reach their potential, and applying that sort of pressure seemed to work.  But these days, the kid's youth career has been so dominated by a single sport and personal trainers, that I'll bet they reach their breaking point a little quicker (and the come into programs closer to their ceiling).
> 
> It is notable that we aren't hearing from ex-players who support him.


If you see a program with 10 freshmen and 5 seniors, you know what you are in for.

In that case, I don't see why you would go there if you want to play sports.  Seems pointless.


----------



## dk_b

dad4 said:


> If you see a program with 10 freshmen and 5 seniors, you know what you are in for.
> 
> In that case, I don't see why you would go there if you want to play sports.  Seems pointless.


Stanford’s roster shows 9 frosh and 5 seniors.  UNC’s, too. (If what I’m seeing is current)


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> Stanford’s roster shows 9 frosh and 5 seniors.  UNC’s, too. (If what I’m seeing is current)


I think that we may have structural problems with D1 sports that may put coaches in difficult positions.


----------



## Giesbock

I agree that D1 players should already be ‘professionals’ vis a vis their training regimen, mental focus, commitment to putting in the daily work, eating habits....  Not that I know from personal experience but top 50 D1 programs are no place for development.  
I kinda see the less popular side of the coin about Cal coach...


----------



## dad4

dk_b said:


> Stanford’s roster shows 9 frosh and 5 seniors.  UNC’s, too. (If what I’m seeing is current)


Similar for Santa Clara, but they are long on sophomores.
And UCLA has a huge roster, but still 2 frosh for every senior.

Definitely seems to be a large element of recruit and replace.


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> *I agree that D1 players should already be ‘professionals’ vis a vis their training regimen, mental focus, commitment to putting in the daily work, eating habits....*  Not that I know from personal experience but top 50 D1 programs are no place for development.
> I kinda see the less popular side of the coin about Cal coach...


And who are the find professionals to teach the young ladies to be pro, bro?  The last four years in socal have been insane and cruel, moo.  Are you and Dre Docs on mental health?  I figured I would ask.  The key for coach and player is to be respectful to each other as a foundation. No one is better or more important then the other, they just have different rolls.  Did you ever see One on One with Robbie Benson?  Hoops story back in the 70s.  Talk about a coach trying to run a player out of his program.  You guys actually act like these girls got what they deserved.  I dont what to read between the lines so I'll let you correct my wrong insight.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Robbie came back with a little help from a sweet girl and got the last word in.  Got his sh*t together ((no drugs or speed)) and just hard work.  He kicked ass and helped Western State win as a Freshman.  These types of coaches suck!!!!


----------



## crush




----------



## Giesbock

Here’s why I couch a lot of what I say with disclaimers like: “I don’t know from personal experience “ or , “I respectfully disagree”:

because I’m not sure if my position is absolutely correct. I’m just giving my two cents to the conversation.
On its face, would I want my daughter to play at Cal right now? NO.  But I can see a scenario where kid uses soccer chops, club coaches connections and solid grades to get in to Cal and then downshifts.  Coach says wtf? Harshly. Player is stunned, hurt and looks for a way out without being truthful with herself.  
Coin always has two sides. Story always has two versions.

I’m just adding my ideas to this conversation.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> You guys actually act like these girls got what they deserved.


Not hating the player, I’m hating the game.  The game is colder than a polar bears toenails!  The game has also been shady for awhile as your video shows.  I’ve heard of academies in Mexico and Europe where coaches will essentially “put hits” on players and have other players try to end their career by attacking their knees.
I don’t think they deserved it but I think maybe they had unrealistic expectations.  Have you seen Hoosiers?  Coach Carter (Rich-City patna)?  Both of those coaches yelled and weren’t liked at times yet were ultimately considered great coaches.


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> Here’s why I couch a lot of what I say with disclaimers like: “I don’t know from personal experience “ or , “I respectfully disagree”:
> 
> because I’m not sure if my position is absolutely correct. I’m just giving my two cents to the conversation.
> On its face, would I want my daughter to play at Cal right now? NO.  But I can see a scenario where kid uses soccer chops, club coaches connections and solid grades to get in to Cal and then downshifts.  Coach says wtf? Harshly. Player is stunned, hurt and looks for a way out without being truthful with herself.
> Coin always has two sides. Story always has two versions.
> 
> I’m just adding my ideas to this conversation.


Girls should not be one side of a coin that the coach is in charge of flipping and calling heads or tails and won't let the girl see if she is right on her call.  Sound familiar?  Coach saying WTF is not showing compassion to the overall health of the student athlete who is 18.  So I'll leave it at that and add that their human and precious and need to be treated with dignity and not harshness.


----------



## dad4

I wonder whether a simple rules change would help.  Don’t give the coach the scholarship slot back when someone quits or is injured.  Take away some of the incentive to be an asshole coach.

The 50% drop off in D1 programs tells me this isn’t the kid‘s fault.  It’s the way the coach runs their system.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Not hating the player, I’m hating the game.  The game is colder than a polar bears toenails!  The game has also been shady for awhile as your video shows.  I’ve heard of academies in Mexico and Europe where coaches will essentially “put hits” on players and have other players try to end their career by attacking their knees.
> I don’t think they deserved it but I think maybe they had unrealistic expectations.  Have you seen Hoosiers?  Coach Carter (Rich-City patna)?  Both of those coaches yelled and weren’t liked at times yet were ultimately considered great coaches.


Hoosiers coach got a second chance or third maybe for smacking a few boys around.  These are girls and they dont deserve this BS they were fed.  4 days a week soccer soccer soccer and more soccer 10 months out of the year and dont you dare try hiking or skateboarding like your goat is doing now.  Their is also a silver lining and mine is that this is going to get all worked out soon   More spot light is all good.


----------



## Soccer43

The biggest red flag to me is how Cal never wins a championship, conference title or performs very well.  They have a great opportunity to recruit well because it is an amazing school.  However, why can't the team perform better?  There is a reason why they fall short year after year.


----------



## suzysoccer1

Always amazed by the amount of dads who apply their own brief and unspectacular athletic careers often times not even in soccer to girls and women’s club and collegiate soccer. When you are a student athlete you are just that. You are not a pro. There is no similarity between pro and college athlete.  None. Furthermore this behavior in a pro setting wound to happen period! Your agent, manager, private coach, shoe dealer rep, national team coach etc would not have it, end of story. These women coming forward are not weak, or soft. They are tough strong women who Neil recruited to be in his program. This is not one person not liking running extra. This is multiple women over several years with legitimate issues of misconduct that no one should have to deal with in any form much less at a school like Cal. I said it before and I will say it again. Every player in your program is of equal value. They all mater.


----------



## Giesbock

Ag


suzysoccer1 said:


> Always amazed by the amount of dads who apply their own brief and unspectacular athletic careers often times not even in soccer to girls and women’s club and collegiate soccer. When you are a student athlete you are just that. You are not a pro. There is no similarity between pro and college athlete.  None. Furthermore this behavior in a pro setting wound to happen period! Your agent, manager, private coach, shoe dealer rep, national team coach etc would not have it, end of story. These women coming forward are not weak, or soft. They are tough strong women who Neil recruited to be in his program. This is not one person not liking running extra. This is multiple women over several years with legitimate issues of misconduct that no one should have to deal with in any form much less at a school like Cal. I said it before and I will say it again. Every player in your program is of equal value. They all mater.


I agree with all that.  

Professional in my use is not Pro. ie. Paid to play.

A person can be a professional scholar, artist, fashionista, surfer, soldier, etc when they put their chosen craft before everything else. An amateur is swayed by what their friends are doing, the weather, bad mood, etc.


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> Ag
> 
> I agree with all that.
> 
> Professional in my use is not Pro. ie. Paid to play.
> 
> A person can be a professional scholar, artist, fashionista, surfer, soldier, etc when they put their chosen craft before everything else. An amateur is swayed by what their friends are doing, the weather, bad mood, etc.


Yes, I heard what "pro" means for the girls ((goodie little two shoe)) from many dear friends who speak truth to me about the mental health of some girl soccer players over the years.  8 out of 10 not finishing is horrible.  Let's start with the basics.  Female soccer player at 14 better be doing the following the next four years or else.  4.4 GPA, AP baby to start plus 1400+ on SAT by Jr year and be the best soccer playa too.  Dont get into trouble, no boy friends, train 5 or 6 days a week 11 months out of the year.  Be perfect little Susie soccer player.  No chance to fail.  Boys?  Be a stud, have girls, party, keep low profile, get 2.5 and stay out of trouble, if possible.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Yes, I heard what "pro" means for the girls ((goodie little two shoe)) from many dear friends who speak truth to me about the mental health of some girl soccer players over the years.  8 out of 10 not finishing is horrible.  Let's start with the basics.  Female soccer player at 14 better be doing the following the next four years or else.  4.4 GPA, AP baby to start plus 1400+ on SAT by Jr year and be the best soccer playa too.  Dont get into trouble, no boy friends, train 5 or 6 days a week 11 months out of the year.  Be perfect little Susie soccer player.  No chance to fail.  Boys?  Be a stud, have girls, party, keep low profile, get 2.5 and stay out of trouble, if possible.


If you have 4.4, 1400, and APs, why do you think you need soccer for college?


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> Always amazed by the amount of dads who apply their own brief and unspectacular athletic careers often times not even in soccer to girls and women’s club and collegiate soccer. When you are a student athlete you are just that. You are not a pro. There is no similarity between pro and college athlete.  None. Furthermore this behavior in a pro setting wound to happen period! Your agent, manager, private coach, shoe dealer rep, national team coach etc would not have it, end of story. These women coming forward are not weak, or soft. They are tough strong women who Neil recruited to be in his program. This is not one person not liking running extra. This is multiple women over several years with legitimate issues of misconduct that no one should have to deal with in any form much less at a school like Cal. I said it before and I will say it again. Every player in your program is of equal value. They all mater.


What behavior?  What misconduct?  Telling a player they are not fit?  Encouraging them to quit and focus on something that they are actually good at?

I also don’t think these women are weak or soft.  I do think it is very possible however that these ladies aren’t good enough to distinguish themselves from others at the highest levels of the game.  I also think that there are several athletes in every sport that have to face the reality that they ain’t good enough every year at Cal so I don’t think those statements over several years are dispositive on the issue.

I agree that all players matter and are of equal value;  I just don’t understand why you think this has anything to do with playing time or being welcome on a team.  If you can’t contribute and you don’t fit in...kick rocks!


----------



## oh canada

No way he survives this -- not with #metoo and other movements.  Not at Berkeley.  Not saying he should or shouldn't, just that he won't.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> I am not sure how I feel about it.  Full disclosure, I like Neil and I’d like to think that there’s a high probability that my kid will play for him in the near future.  So, I don’t want to be dismissive of what these young ladies have experienced  and although I am concerned, I am not yet convinced there is a problem.
> 
> From the letters I read, I kind of felt some of the ladies lack grit and wanted to be coddled and have their hands held in a cutthroat competitive environment.  Seriously?
> 
> Many of the things these ladies are complaining about are present in ALL competitive environments.  I remember @MakeAPlay mentioning the hunger games at UCLA and warning about the high transfer rate at FSU.  What about the high turnover rates of associates at accounting and law firms? Is it Neil or are these ladies having a hard time accepting the finality of the biggest failure of their lives?
> 
> I am a “straight shooter” and that is one of the qualities I like most about Neil.  I have no problem with him being direct.





tjsoccer said:


> The central theme is that he is trying to get girls to quit who are under performing to their scholarship (or  expectations).  This isn't uncommon in College athletics, and I'm sure it is a bigger deal now that the Power 5 have 4 year scholarships.
> 
> Even though he may not be criminally abusive, he does sound like a big baby and I wouldn't play for him (not that he would ask me).  I just don't think those tactics work that well to improve play.  Maybe the athletically gifted, multi-sport athletes of years ago had a longer runway to reach their potential, and applying that sort of pressure seemed to work.  But these days, the kid's youth career has been so dominated by a single sport and personal trainers, that I'll bet they reach their breaking point a little quicker (and the come into programs closer to their ceiling).
> 
> It is notable that we aren't hearing from ex-players who support him.


bottom line is NEIL has underperformed when compared to other coaches in the Pac-12 with similar acadmeic profiles.  Stanford, UCLA Zane USC have all won national championships and he barely gets out of the first round.  That IMO is enough to dump him and replace him with a top female coach like Tiffany Roberts and others.


----------



## dad4

eastbaysoccer said:


> bottom line is NEIL has underperformed when compared to other coaches in the Pac-12 with similar acadmeic profiles.  Stanford, UCLA Zane USC have all won national championships and he barely gets out of the first round.  That IMO is enough to dump him and replace him with a top female coach like Tiffany Roberts and others.


Different people have different bottom lines.

For my family, I care about academics, health, character growth, and a pleasant college experience.  

Win/loss is not the bottom line; it isn't even a line item. For others, it may be completely different.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> What behavior?  What misconduct?  Telling a player they are not fit?  Encouraging them to quit and focus on something that they are actually good at?
> 
> I also don’t think these women are weak or soft.  I do think it is very possible however that these ladies aren’t good enough to distinguish themselves from others at the highest levels of the game.  I also think that there are several athletes in every sport that have to face the reality that they ain’t good enough every year at Cal so I don’t think those statements over several years are dispositive on the issue.
> 
> I agree that all players matter and are of equal value;  I just don’t understand why you think this has anything to do with playing time or being welcome on a team.  If you can’t contribute and you don’t fit in...kick rocks!


Kick rocks seriously?  Your making my point. Dads that didn’t play soccer who talk like they know what’s it a like to be a female soccer player. This is an issue of a coach acting like a jackass. I hope all your daughters are good enough to “distinguish themselves at the highest levels” (also didn’t known Cal was considered highest level) when they get to college.


----------



## GT45

College rosters are always lighter in size at the oldest classes. Example, 8 frosh are signed. One gets seriously injured and eventually quits. A couple are not happy with their playing time so one or both may transfer, the other may just quit and focus on other things at the school. Another redshirts due to injury. And, just like that you are down to 4 seniors. It is extremely rare for an entire signing class to start together and leave 4 years later together. It is nearly impossible. When you sign a large class it is more pronounced.


----------



## dad4

GT45 said:


> College rosters are always lighter in size at the oldest classes. Example, 8 frosh are signed. One gets seriously injured and eventually quits. A couple are not happy with their playing time so one or both may transfer, the other may just quit and focus on other things at the school. Another redshirts due to injury. And, just like that you are down to 4 seniors. It is extremely rare for an entire signing class to start together and leave 4 years later together. It is nearly impossible. When you sign a large class it is more pronounced.


But that is part of what I want to know.  So, if you sign D1, what do you expect?  Your description is a 1/4 chance of injury, a 1/4 chance of less than expected playing time, and a 1/2 chance of wanting to finish out 4 years.

If that’s true, then studying hard and playing for Harvey Mudd or CalTech is starting to look mighty good.


----------



## full90

I’m ok with tough coaches. I also get that D1 sports is really hard. Lots of kids quit at most programs. It’s a grind and a lot don’t make it even at well run programs.
And a coach can make mistakes, lose their cool, get frustrated etc. just like all of us.

but some of what the letters relate that he’s said (to more than one player) is really rough. “Waste of a scholarship” is abusive. There’s never a time to say that to someone. Even if they are and you’re trying to get them to quit or transfer. It’s just an asshole thing to say.

so combine that with the fact that HIS TEAMS ARE SO AVERAGE and I don’t see him surviving.

I’ve seen cal play for years. They have insanely good players and he’s never won two games in the ncaas. Why do kids keep going there and then act surprised when they don’t win and he’s a jerk to them?

Mac have you seen how average they are? Why is that appealing? Just the education? I’m genuinely asking.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> What behavior?  What misconduct?  Telling a player they are not fit?  Encouraging them to quit and focus on something that they are actually good at?
> 
> I also don’t think these women are weak or soft.  I do think it is very possible however that these ladies aren’t good enough to distinguish themselves from others at the highest levels of the game.  I also think that there are several athletes in every sport that have to face the reality that they ain’t good enough every year at Cal so I don’t think those statements over several years are dispositive on the issue.
> 
> I agree that all players matter and are of equal value;  I just don’t understand why you think this has anything to do with playing time or being welcome on a team. * If you can’t contribute and you don’t fit in...kick rocks!*


Dre, that is harsh and the reason men have been treating woman like sh*t.  I knew a cold husband that told his wife to "get a job and contribute like me or kick rocks."  Woman had three of this asses kids and he bailed on her for something younger.  Not all men act like this and we all see improvements being made everyday.  We also see rich billionaires getting their asses thrown in jail for being jerks to young girls.  I told Vegas Guy a long time ago that much is coming out that has not been reveled.  Dec 21st is the beginning of the big reset.  Woman will be truly be equal to the jerks that have ruin their souls and their life over centuries.  It's time to fix this wrong and make so much improvement that this kind of behavior is never allowed.
Color me this Dre.  I'm still shocked that the strip joint in SD got a judge to allow dads to watch the ladies dance naked inside the club but dads can;t watch their dd play club soccer outside?  Something very wrong in our society and it needs some fixing and blowing up quickly.


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> Are you a coach Face?  Where you coach at?  Doc?  Let's not forget, my kid got pushed for decision in 7th and 8th grade.


So many others did as well.  There were 2 Coaches pressing my DD before the rule change (DD was in 8th grade at the time).  She told them both, “I’m not sure what I want to do with my life yet.  I know soccer is one thing, but my education is another.  I hope you can understand that.  When June 15th 2021 come around, I hope we will talk again.”

The situation you describe is not unique to you, some use it as a Sail, others an Anchor.....


----------



## crush

Kicker4Life said:


> So many others did as well. * There were 2 Coaches pressing my DD before the rule change (DD was in 8th grade at the time).*  She told them both, “I’m not sure what I want to do with my life yet.  I know soccer is one thing, but my education is another.  I hope you can understand that.  When June 15th 2021 come around, I hope we will talk again.”
> 
> *The situation you describe is not unique to you, some use it as a Sail, others an Anchor.....*


First off Kicker, my dd NEVER talked to a college coach in 7th or 8th grade.  So no pressure from them to be clear.  Other friends of hers did and some said" hi" like your goat and some took the deal and now want out of that deal.  Why?  Because their 17 now and think for themselves.  The pressure did come from a few assholes in the middle of this family sport, who said all they have to do is make a call on her behalf and she's all in with a deal.  Same ones saying I had to get my dd to send fake emails and pay $900 for a high end video to get to the coach to call her.  Video dude is a freind too so everyone get's a slice of the pie.  That is my rant and always has been my rant, got it?  The youth club soccer arena knows that parents want their kid to go to college or their a failure as a parent and so is little Susie Soccer.  Keeping up with the Jones in Socal is to make sure your kids go to college.  Add some Title 9 to the mix and you got yourself a billion dollar industry.  What do the girls get from all the Billions?  A fuc*ing full time job, told to act like a pro and get paid zero and all pressure pressure pressure and a chance a coach will treat you like sh*t and cause many to have mental breakdowns.  Dam dude, dont you get it?  This was all built for the men and it should be all about the girls first.  TGIF bro.  My wife is 50 and looks 30.  Peace!!!  P.S.  Follow the money and see how much the girls get out of all this club soccer.  They need be treated way better.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> Kick rocks seriously?  Your making my point. Dads that didn’t play soccer who talk like they know what’s it a like to be a female soccer player. This is an issue of a coach acting like a jackass. I hope all your daughters are good enough to “distinguish themselves at the highest levels” (also didn’t known Cal was considered highest level) when they get to college.


Okay, I am fully aware that oftentimes I am a complete tool when it comes to women.  I’m a caveman trying to do better.  Could you please explain to me the plight of the female soccer player so that I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from?

Why is Neil being a jackass as opposed to being honest?
Only approx %2 of all players make D1 rosters so I think all schools in the P5 conferences are considered highest level.  If Neil told my kid she sucked and to kick rocks, she’d focus on math and physics.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Okay, I am fully aware that oftentimes I am a complete tool when it comes to women.  I’m a caveman trying to do better.  Could you please explain to me the plight of the female soccer player so that I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from?
> 
> Why is Neil being a jackass as opposed to being honest?
> Only approx %2 of all players make D1 rosters so I think all schools in the P5 conferences are considered highest level.  If Neil told my kid she sucked and to kick rocks, she’d focus on math and physics.


The problem comes when she wants to study math and physics, but likes to play soccer to blow off steam.  Not every coach is happy to have a STEM major on the team.  “sorry coach, O-Chem lab is from 2 to 6 that day.”


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> I’m ok with tough coaches. I also get that D1 sports is really hard. Lots of kids quit at most programs. It’s a grind and a lot don’t make it even at well run programs.
> And a coach can make mistakes, lose their cool, get frustrated etc. just like all of us.
> 
> but some of what the letters relate that he’s said (to more than one player) is really rough. “Waste of a scholarship” is abusive. There’s never a time to say that to someone. Even if they are and you’re trying to get them to quit or transfer. It’s just an asshole thing to say.
> 
> so combine that with the fact that HIS TEAMS ARE SO AVERAGE and I don’t see him surviving.
> 
> I’ve seen cal play for years. They have insanely good players and he’s never won two games in the ncaas. Why do kids keep going there and then act surprised when they don’t win and he’s a jerk to them?
> 
> Mac have you seen how average they are? Why is that appealing? Just the education? I’m genuinely asking.


I agree that Cal has underperformed.  My kid was born in Berkeley and is very familiar with the environment.  My kid is also a little advanced academically and the plan was to send her to Cal during her high school years.  My kid was involved with ATDP at Cal years before anyone knew she had any talent in soccer.

But most importantly, I am being pressured by Cal boosters so to speak.  I have strong ties to Cal football (meathead friends and cousins) and they want to see my kid in a Cal uniform.  Also Dr. Lewis is my kids pediatrician and he wants my kid to go to Cal so bad.  Doc introduced my kid to sports and has been taking her to Cal games since she was knee high to a grasshopper.  She also won a prize at a basketball halftime show for screaming “Beat Stanford.” He’s retired now but still takes her to Donner Lake every year to snowboard.  Doc is really more of a grandpa than a Doc to her.  So, I hope that my kid can show Doc some love and put on a Cal jersey at least 1 year.

As soon as I heard the KTVU report I called Doc and asked if he saw the report.  He laughed and said did you know Neil recruited the #1 ranked class and did you see how diverse the group is?


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> *Okay, I am fully aware that oftentimes I am a complete tool when it comes to women.  I’m a caveman trying to do better. * Could you please explain to me the plight of the female soccer player so that I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from?
> 
> Why is Neil being a jackass as opposed to being honest?
> Only approx %2 of all players make D1 rosters so I think all schools in the P5 conferences are considered highest level.  If Neil told my kid she sucked and to kick rocks, she’d focus on math and physics.


Being honest to one's short comings is good Dre and how one can change.  However, if you keep going back to being like Cain the caveman and use that as an excuse, you will NEVER change because you actually like being in control.  Woman are the most important human on the planet.  Think about it.  Only they can take a seed, have it in their body and produce life.  They can also be a black widow.  Think about that for a second.  I have so much more respect for woman today.  I see their pain & power and I'm super sorry.  I even got mad at woman for abortion and that was wrong.  I totally get it now.  Be loving and kind Dre and help us fix this.  You might be a yeller because you were in Marine, but it doesnt give us all the right to yell at girls, unless of course they joined the Marines


----------



## happy9

suzysoccer1 said:


> Kick rocks seriously?  Your making my point. Dads that didn’t play soccer who talk like they know what’s it a like to be a female soccer player. This is an issue of a coach acting like a jackass. I hope all your daughters are good enough to “distinguish themselves at the highest levels” (also didn’t known Cal was considered highest level) when they get to college.


Don't worry, he should have lost you when he said being a D1 athlete and/or a  pro is harder than being a Marine


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Dre, that is harsh and the reason men have been treating woman like sh*t.  I knew a cold husband that told his wife to "get a job and contribute like me or kick rocks."  Woman had three of this asses kids and he bailed on her for something younger.  Not all men act like this and we all see improvements being made everyday.  We also see rich billionaires getting their asses thrown in jail for being jerks to young girls.  I told Vegas Guy a long time ago that much is coming out that has not been reveled.  Dec 21st is the beginning of the big reset.  Woman will be truly be equal to the jerks that have ruin their souls and their life over centuries.  It's time to fix this wrong and make so much improvement that this kind of behavior is never allowed.
> Color me this Dre.  I'm still shocked that the strip joint in SD got a judge to allow dads to watch the ladies dance naked inside the club but dads can;t watch their dd play club soccer outside?  Something very wrong in our society and it needs some fixing and blowing up quickly.


Are you suggesting that we lower the bar for women because they can’t handle the pressure?  Male players are released from teams too.  I just don’t understand, why a coach can’t tell a male or female player that they suck and to kick rocks.  D1 sports ain’t the damn 4H club; everyone isn’t a winner; everyone doesn’t get a trophy.  Fuck that.  Kick rocks, you suck, and move on to something that you are good at.  What happened to good old fashioned honesty folks?

I don’t see this as a male/female issue.  I see it as  a talent issue; either you have what it takes or you don’t.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> I agree that Cal has underperformed.  My kid was born in Berkeley and is very familiar with the environment.  My kid is also a little advanced academically and the plan was to send her to Cal during her high school years.  My kid was involved with ATDP at Cal years before anyone knew she had any talent in soccer.
> 
> But most importantly, I am being pressured by Cal boosters so to speak.  I have strong ties to Cal football (meathead friends and cousins) and they want to see my kid in a Cal uniform.  Also Dr. Lewis is my kids pediatrician and he wants my kid to go to Cal so bad.  Doc introduced my kid to sports and has been taking her to Cal games since she was knee high to a grasshopper.  She also won a prize at a basketball halftime show for screaming “Beat Stanford.” He’s retired now but still takes her to Donner Lake every year to snowboard.  Doc is really more of a grandpa than a Doc to her.  So, I hope that my kid can show Doc some love and put on a Cal jersey at least 1 year.
> 
> As soon as I heard the KTVU report I called Doc and asked if he saw the report.  He laughed and said did you know Neil recruited the #1 ranked class and did you see how diverse the group is?


Cal’s academics recruits on its own merits.  If Neil is fired some new person will jump right in and perform exactly the same if not better.  What’s doc have to say about the shitty football CAL is playing?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

The cal soccer program is really meaningless in the big scope of things at cal.  When a meaningless program starts making more press then the football and basketball team it’s time to make a move.


----------



## MacDre

happy9 said:


> Don't worry, he should have lost you when he said being a D1 athlete and/or a  pro is harder than being a Marine


Most Marines are washed up high school athletes that didn’t make D1.


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> Most Marines are washed up high school athletes that didn’t make D1.


Good try.  I won't hijack this thread with what's  likely an attempt at humor on your part.  I've been a D1 athlete and a service member.  Rest assured, it's much harder to walk down a street in the company of people who wish you harm than it is to play with a ball within the safe confines of a campus/stadium.

But good try.  Now you can continue to defend a person who likely has used his position to mentally and physically abuse young women.  If it's leaking out now, it will come out eventually.  Coaches are great actors and put on a show in front of parents and boosters, it's their job. 

Peace out.


----------



## MacDre

happy9 said:


> Good try.  I won't hijack this thread with what's  likely an attempt at humor on your part.  I've been a D1 athlete and a service member.  Rest assured, it's much harder to walk down a street in the company of people who wish you harm than it is to play with a ball within the safe confines of a campus/stadium.
> 
> But good try.  Now you can continue to defend a person who likely has used his position to mentally and physically abuse young women.  If it's leaking out now, it will come out eventually.  Coaches are great actors and put on a show in front of parents and boosters, it's their job.
> 
> Peace out.


Thank you for your service.  I am not defending, I am investigating.


----------



## crush

This

or


----------



## crush

I paid $15 and I still can;t edit and get adds out of face Dom.  What's the hold up?  I typed on here that my wife wants to settle in Sedona and now all I get are ads like this:


Customized Sedona Retreat
LEARN MORE

Awaken Your Spiritual Life


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> This
> View attachment 9718
> or
> View attachment 9719


I dedicate this to all the folks that hastily concluded Neil is guilty...where’s the beef?


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I dedicate this to all the folks that hastily concluded Neil is guilty...where’s the beef?


Newspaper wrote a story and we read the quotes.  You and EOTL seem to think the girls need to be treated like Marines and yelling is good for the soul and calling girls out for their weight in front of others ((teammates)) is just peaches & cream.  I dated a girl one time who kept asking me if she was fat.  I always said no because she wasn;t.  One night on a date, she asked me again.  This time I leaned over and pitched her side and said, "you can lose a little" all as a joke.  After that stupid comment, she stopped talking to me for two weeks.  I went to her work and told her she wanst answering my phone calls ((no text back in the day)) and I was super sorry.  She told me to F off and never call her again.  I learned my listen and so should every male in this county.  DONT TALK ABOUT A WOMANS WEIGHT.  Let the trainers do the teaching, not a dude.  I spoke to one male top coach and let him have it.  He said sorry and never said BS like he did again to the girl players.  I helped him by pulling him aside man to man and only to him and to this day he said it helped him understand girls better.  Now he has 6 year old girl and he gets it, kind of.  i told him to just wait when they turn 16.


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> The cal soccer program is really meaningless in the big scope of things at cal.  When a meaningless program starts making more press then the football and basketball team it’s time to make a move.


Maybe.  But I am still not convinced the problem is Neil.  Maybe there should be some type of policy change.  Firing the coach without addressing the underlying logistical issues doesn’t solve the problem.  No one has told me yet how they’d tell a player they sucked and to kick rocks, why?

I am not sure if the press is legitimate or if Neil told a connected lawyers spoiled entitled kid that they suck and to kick rocks.  I don’t think Neil is loosing any sleep over this.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Newspaper wrote a story and we read the quotes.  You and EOTL seem to think the girls need to be treated like Marines and yelling is good for the soul and calling girls out for their weight in front of others ((teammates)) is just peaches & cream.  I dated a girl one time who kept asking me if she was fat.  I always said no because she wasn;t.  One night on a date, she asked me again.  This time I leaned over and pitched her side and said, "you can lose a little" all as a joke.  After that stupid comment, she stopped talking to me for two weeks.  I went to her work and told her she wanst answering my phone calls ((no text back in the day)) and I was super sorry.  She told me to F off and never call her again.  I learned my listen and so should every male in this county.  DONT TALK ABOUT A WOMANS WEIGHT.  Let the trainers do the teaching, not a dude.  I spoke to one male top coach and let him have it.  He said sorry and never said BS like he did again to the girl players.  I helped him by pulling him aside man to man and only to him and to this day he said it helped him understand girls better.  Now he has 6 year old girl and he gets it, kind of.  i told him to just wait when they turn 16.


So how should a coach address fitness with an overweight player?


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> So how should a coach address fitness with an overweight player?


"Girls, you need to come to camp in good shape and then I will put a fall camp together so your all ready to play.  I know we have 35 on the roster so make sure you work harder then the others so you can play.  If your not in shape, you can sit on da bench."  That's not too hard.  It almost sounds like some of these coaches get pissed that little Sally 8th grader is not the same Sally of today.  Kindness and patients is the key.  It's true some girls think that the 8th grader player can just turn on a switch and she's back to that body.  Nope, impossible.  All girls grow differently too and are going through a lot more then soccer.  Life is smacking them in the face.  Not everyone is excellent in all areas of their lives Dre.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> So how should a coach address fitness with an overweight player?


With girls, I’d say focus on positive things.  Set goals for running times.  Emphasize sports nutrition by talking about what foods are helpful.   I don’t know many people who eat lean meat and salad but keep gaining weight.

It won’t always work, but it’s a safer bet than making people feel rotten and risk that they use food to deal with stress.  It doesn’t matter whether the stress response is to skip meals or binge eat.  Either one is bad.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> With girls, I’d say focus on positive things.  Set goals for running times.  Emphasize sports nutrition by talking about what foods are helpful.   I don’t know many people who eat lean meat and salad but keep gaining weight.
> 
> It won’t always work, but it’s a safer bet than making people feel rotten and risk that they use food to deal with stress.  It doesn’t matter whether the stress response is to skip meals or binge eat.  Either one is bad.


Throw in that some parents get divorce.  Maybe new player has family issues going too.  Maybe dad lost his job.  All this D1 is sounding like no fun.  That's why it's wise to do your research.  Some players like being yelled at.  Depression is huge as well.


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> Maybe.  But I am still not convinced the problem is Neil.  Maybe there should be some type of policy change.  Firing the coach without addressing the underlying logistical issues doesn’t solve the problem.  No one has told me yet how they’d tell a player they sucked and to kick rocks, why?
> 
> I am not sure if the press is legitimate or if Neil told a connected lawyers spoiled entitled kid that they suck and to kick rocks.  I don’t think Neil is loosing any sleep over this.


This guy's wacky behavior goes back at least a decade.  Kids are told they aren't good enough to make a team every year, across the spectrum of sports.  "Neil", due to his perceived experience, should have figured out how to tell someone they they suck and to kick rocks in a manner that doesn't put him on the front page of newspapers.  I think the count now is 24 young ladies accusing him of mental and physical abuse. Being accused by 3 can be questioned, accused by 24, that tastes different.

If he hasn't figured out how to objectively describe to a female athlete the advantages of being physically fit, and how it correlates to weight, then maybe he's not a good coach.  Especially today, words mean something.  There is a time and a place to use perceived adversity to weed people out.  Constant toxicity does nothing for a team environment, not even in the Marine Corps.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> With girls, I’d say focus on positive things.  Set goals for running times.  Emphasize sports nutrition by talking about what foods are helpful.   I don’t know many people who eat lean meat and salad but keep gaining weight.
> 
> It won’t always work, but it’s a safer bet than making people feel rotten and risk that they use food to deal with stress.  It doesn’t matter whether the stress response is to skip meals or binge eat.  Either one is bad.


I think they have access to dieticians and trainers and are still unfit and overweight.  How does one arrive at a P5 school without understanding diet and exercise?  These ladies are either clinically depressed or don’t care.


----------



## warrior49

I could see if it was a low number of girls saying this, but this is widespread and going back years. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And if this is just about lack of talent and fitness, what does that say about Neil's ability to recruit his preferred type of players effectively? Has he not figured this out yet? He's been a coach for years.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I think they have access to dieticians and trainers and are still unfit and overweight.  How does one arrive at a P5 school without understanding diet and exercise?  These ladies are either clinically depressed or don’t care.


Dre, Please go talk to your inner caveman bro.  I would go take a long walk and think about what your saying today.  I'm sure when EOTL has some time he will have your back on this issue.


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> I think they have access to dieticians and trainers and are still unfit and overweight.  How does one arrive at a P5 school without understanding diet and exercise?  These ladies are either clinically depressed or don’t care.


Now you are just saying things.  I don't believe that you believe this - especially since you are a dad and a husband.

Sounds like Neil has been an asshat for a long time, now it's out for everyone to see.


----------



## crush

happy9 said:


> Now you are just saying things.  I don't believe that you believe this - especially since you are a dad and a husband.


No, he does.  Trust me, just because your a dad and husband does not take the cave out of the man.  He runs his cave just like all these swell yellers run their house....lol, just kidding Dre.  Look, it takes a caveman to know another caveman.  I was a yeller dad and husband and I thought that was the way to be.  Its not, trust me.  I learned the easy way and now I enjoy love from my wife that is out of this world.  I treat my dd with respect and dont yell at her, ever. Happy, I went to a funeral 8 years ago.  A dear friend of mind from college died of stomach cancer.  He had a wife and two teenager kids, a boy and girl.  They all shared the same fu*king thing at his funeral.  My husband never raised his voice at me, never once"  "One thing I loved about my dad, he never yelled or raised his voice at me."  Both son and daughter said the same thing about their old man Steve.  Granted Steve was an Elder in his church but the fact they all said the same thing was convicting and i felt guilty.  We all got in the car after Steve was buried and I asked my kids what they thought.  Guess what they said?  So the moral of story is stop yelling at everyone out of anger or trying to cause pain on others because you fuc^ed up!!!!


----------



## Soccer43

I've said it before and will say it again.  What motivates males to achieve and perform is different than what motivates females.  It's not about females being weak or lazy because they don't like male coaches trying to coach them like they do males.  It doesn't work.  It doesn't achieve excellence.  The psychology is different and any coach that doesn't get that is either stupid or too lazy to figure it out.  You can push female athletes and have high expectations for effort, performance, and discipline but it is how to go about it that makes the difference.  Male athletes want to beat out their counterparts so pitting them against each other, yelling at them, threatening them seems to work.  Females athletes are motivated by other factors so if you create this hunger games mentality it tears down their basic psychology and then they can't achieve their goals.  Women are about the relationship, men are about acquiring something (internal/inter-relatedness vs external/independent achievement and acquisition).


----------



## crush

Soccer43 said:


> I've said it before and will say it again.  What motivates males to achieve and perform is different than what motivates females.  It's not about females being weak or lazy because they don't like male coaches trying to coach them like they do males.  It doesn't work.  It doesn't achieve excellence.  The psychology is different and any coach that doesn't get that is either stupid or too lazy to figure it out.  You can push female athletes and have high expectations for effort, performance, and discipline but it is how to go about it that makes the difference.  Male athletes want to beat out their counterparts so pitting them against each other, yelling at them, threatening them seems to work.  Females athletes are motivated by other factors so if you create this hunger games mentality it tears down their basic psychology and then they can't achieve their goals.  Women are about the relationship, men are about acquiring something (internal/inter-relatedness vs external/independent achievement and acquisition).


43 is spot on.  Well written bro and happy TGIF!!!


----------



## MacDre

happy9 said:


> This guy's wacky behavior goes back at least a decade.  Kids are told they aren't good enough to make a team every year, across the spectrum of sports.  "Neil", due to his perceived experience, should have figured out how to tell someone they they suck and to kick rocks in a manner that doesn't put him on the front page of newspapers.  I think the count now is 24 young ladies accusing him of mental and physical abuse. Being accused by 3 can be questioned, accused by 24, that tastes different.
> 
> If he hasn't figured out how to objectively describe to a female athlete the advantages of being physically fit, and how it correlates to weight, then maybe he's not a good coach.  Especially today, words mean something.  There is a time and a place to use perceived adversity to weed people out.  Constant toxicity does nothing for a team environment, not even in the Marine Corps.


24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.

Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.

Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.

So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.

Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> 24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.
> 
> Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.
> 
> Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.
> 
> So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.
> 
> Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


Stay in the cave I guess Dre.  I hope all parties can sit down and make nice.  Good luck Cal Golden Bears!!!!


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> I think they have access to dieticians and trainers and are still unfit and overweight. How does one arrive at a P5 school without understanding diet and exercise? These ladies are either clinically depressed or don’t care.


Bingo


----------



## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> 24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.
> 
> Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.
> 
> Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.
> 
> So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.
> 
> Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


The professor doesn't tell the student he or she is lazy, stupid, too fat, or incompetent.  They grade the assignment and give them a grade - objective measurement that is not a demeaning, emotional, personal attack


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> 24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.
> 
> Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.
> 
> Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.
> 
> So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.
> 
> Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


We'll agree to disagree and see how this plays out.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> Newspaper wrote a story and we read the quotes.  You and EOTL seem to think the girls need to be treated like Marines and yelling is good for the soul and calling girls out for their weight in front of others ((teammates)) is just peaches & cream.  I dated a girl one time who kept asking me if she was fat.  I always said no because she wasn;t.  One night on a date, she asked me again.  This time I leaned over and pitched her side and said, "you can lose a little" all as a joke.  After that stupid comment, she stopped talking to me for two weeks.  I went to her work and told her she wanst answering my phone calls ((no text back in the day)) and I was super sorry.  She told me to F off and never call her again.  I learned my listen and so should every male in this county.  DONT TALK ABOUT A WOMANS WEIGHT.  Let the trainers do the teaching, not a dude.  I spoke to one male top coach and let him have it.  He said sorry and never said BS like he did again to the girl players.  I helped him by pulling him aside man to man and only to him and to this day he said it helped him understand girls better.  Now he has 6 year old girl and he gets it, kind of.  i told him to just wait when they turn 16.


Ok moron, what were the words that Neil used?  Did he tell anyone anything other than they needed to be more fit or leaner if they intended to get more playing time? That is not fat shaming, that is the reality of playing sports in an elite D1 sport, especially at a place that people apparently believe should compete for national titles. 

But let me tell you what actual fat shaming is.  It is a bipolar tool who spends his time here demanding that overweight people and those with comorbidities that lead to being overweight should stay the f**k home for as long as it takes so he and his alleged six pack abs can pretend nothing is happening; who is perfectly happy to get covid and transmit it to anyone who is overweight because he knows he isn’t going to die, and it’s their fault for ever leaving the house; who actually says here that people wouldn’t need the vaccine if they’d just eat better - regardless of whether their weight is the result of some other medical condition that prevents them from engaging in adequate exercise; and who actually accused me (and by implication everyone here who supports getting a vaccine and protections for those with comorbities) of living in fear because I’m allegedly overweight

It is almost impossible to overstate how lacking in self-awareness and how f**king stupid you are.  Or how little empathy and brain power you have when you think that telling someone trying to be an elite athlete that they need to be leaner and more fit is “abuse”, and then you turn around and tell every overweight person in America that they just need to stay home all the time because you don’t give s**t about them and won’t get the vaccine, and claim that they wouldn’t have this problem if they only ate better.


----------



## Yours in futbol

MacDre said:


> I don’t see this as a male/female issue.  I see it as  a talent issue; either you have what it takes or you don’t.


I see it as more of a HR issue, and a serious one that needs to be addressed.

I sincerely hope the Coach is getting better advice from Cal professionals and his friends than what you are giving him, and is evaluating his words and behavior in light of these accusations.  There are ways for a coach/supervisor to deal with an underperforming player/employee that do not involve insults or verbal abuse.  

I think your comments about associate burnout in law firms are telling.  A lot has changed over the last 15 years in terms of legal and professional standards.  A senior partner, even a rainmaker, will not last very long at a medium size or large law firm making the comments that have been attributed to the Coach.

JMHO -- I like watching Cal games and enjoy reading your comments on this board, but it never hurts to reach out for additional HR training for the sake of a career.


----------



## watfly

MacDre said:


> 24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.
> 
> Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.
> 
> Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.
> 
> So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.
> 
> Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


I love your Cal vs Stanford angle.  My bro-in-law is a Stanford grad, he's annoying  .

Not trying to make light of a serious issue, let's wait for more facts to come in.


----------



## EOTL

l


EOTL said:


> Ok moron, what were the words that Neil used?  Did he tell anyone anything other than they needed to be more fit or leaner if they intended to get more playing time? That is not fat shaming, that is the reality of playing sports in an elite D1 sport, especially at a place that people apparently believe should compete for national titles.
> 
> But let me tell you what actual fat shaming is.  It is a bipolar tool who spends his time here demanding that overweight people and those with comorbidities that lead to being overweight should stay the f**k home for as long as it takes so he and his alleged six pack abs can pretend nothing is happening; who is perfectly happy to get covid and transmit it to anyone who is overweight because he knows he isn’t going to die, and it’s their fault for ever leaving the house; who actually says here that people wouldn’t need the vaccine if they’d just eat better - regardless of whether their weight is the result of some other medical condition that prevents them from engaging in adequate exercise; and who actually accused me (and by implication everyone here who supports getting a vaccine and protections for those with comorbities) of living in fear because I’m allegedly overweight
> 
> It is almost impossible to overstate how lacking in self-awareness and how f**king stupid you are.  Or how little empathy and brain power you have when you think that telling someone trying to be an elite athlete that they need to be leaner and more fit is “abuse”, and then you turn around and tell every overweight person in America that they just need to stay home all the time because you don’t give s**t about them and won’t get the vaccine, and claim that they wouldn’t have this problem if they only ate better.


Cat got your tong.., er, keyboard Mr. Fat Shamer @crush man?  I can’t wait to hear how you’re going to rationalize this.  Better do some serious ab crunches first.


----------



## dk_b

watfly said:


> I love your Cal vs Stanford angle.  My bro-in-law is a Stanford grad, he's annoying  .
> 
> Not trying to make light of a serious issue, let's wait for more facts to come in.


I went to both places.  When I'm annoying, the Stanford people assume it is my Cal side and the Cal people assume it is my Stanford side.  Me?  I just say, "hey, I can't help it.  I don't even exercise!" (channeling my inner Fezzik)


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> I went to both places.


My condolences.


----------



## dk_b

watfly said:


> My condolences.


By that response, I assume you went to USC


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> l
> 
> 
> Cat got your tong.., er, keyboard Mr. Fat Shamer @crush man?  I can’t wait to hear how you’re going to rationalize this.  Better do some serious ab crunches first.


----------



## crush

dk_b said:


> By that response, I assume you went to USC


My mom and her husband went to USC.  My bro went to UCLA when Mr Wooden was there and Sam.  70s and 80s was the bomb with me and my mama.  Go Bruins all the way!!!!


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> By that response, I assume you went to USC


Worse than that, I'm too embarrassed to name my University.


----------



## MacDre

Yours in futbol said:


> There are ways for a coach/supervisor to deal with an underperforming player/employee that do not involve insults or verbal abuse.


I agree.  I also think one’s perception is their reality.  So, I also think Neil could have communicated weight issues and performance problems in the utmost respectful manner but it could’ve been received wrong because he was crushing someone’s childhood dream.  I see Neil telling young ladies that they are not good enough and crushing their childhood dreams similar to the burden that homicide detectives have notifying the next of kin because the information is potentially catastrophic and life changing.  Not easy.


----------



## EOTL

Desert Hound said:


> Bingo


Holy moly, @Desert Hound and I agree on something else.


----------



## dk_b

watfly said:


> Worse than that, I'm too embarrassed to name my University.


I thought your response was perfect and the only thing worse than saying you went to SC is if you happen to be a Dodger fan.


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> I thought your response was perfect and the only thing worse than saying you went to SC is if you happen to be a Dodger fan.


Implying that I might be a Dodger fan is really insulting.  I thought we were just having some friendly banter and then you had to go there.  Buddy, you've just been put on ignore.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> I went to both places.  When I'm annoying, the Stanford people assume it is my Cal side and the Cal people assume it is my Stanford side.  Me?  I just say, "hey, I can't help it.  I don't even exercise!" (channeling my inner Fezzik)


Ladies and gents I think we’ve found a BEAR that doesn’t piss on trees.


----------



## dk_b

watfly said:


> Implying that I might be a Dodger fan is really insulting.  I thought we were just having some friendly banter and then you had to go there.  Buddy, you've just been put on ignore.


No.  My point is don't sell your school short.  There is nothing worse than a Trojan (I mean, that is, if you are of a certain old age like yours truly and were a Pac-10 fan or student in the 80s) . . . except maybe a Dodger fan (w/apologies to my late grandparents, Dodger season ticketholders from 1958).


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> Ladies and gents I think we’ve found a BEAR that doesn’t piss on trees.


Ha ha.  If I remember correctly, you are of the vintage of Mr Benjamin so I'm a little older than you.  My first Big Game as a college student is considered one of the biggest upsets in Big Game history - Joe Kapp's last game as coach.  1986, even bigger than 1982 when the Play robbed John Elway of a Big Game win (I think Cal had won 1 game and Stanford was something like 8-2 or 7-3 going in).  I can remember Hardy Nickerson, in full uniform, climbing the ladder and leading the Cal Band.  And, if you want to know where my loyalties lie, I will say that I was none too thrilled to see ol' Hardy doing his thing.


----------



## crush

ok guys, back to the girls.  How can we make the girls life better in college?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> ok guys, back to the girls.  How can we make the girls life better in college?


I detect from your attempts to change the subject that you’re just going to pretend that you don’t fat shame people and that telling D1 athletes that they need to be more fit to play constitutes abuse?  I guess that’s really the only thing you can do, right, Mr. Fat Shamer @crush man?


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> I detect from your attempts to change the subject that you’re just going to pretend that you don’t fat shame people and that telling D1 athletes that they need to be more fit to play constitutes abuse?  I guess that’s really the only thing you can do, right, Mr. Fat Shamer @crush man?


I told everyone on here in March to lose weight and eat healthy.  I practice what I preach.  Fruits, Veggies, water, air, shelter and nuts.  Get ready.  I dont fat shame anyone, let alone girls.  If you are fat EOTL, please lose weight.  That's my message to you only.  If girls in California are 2021 D1 potential players and have not been allowed to play and want to be impact freshman nest year, then they need to run and run some more and stay in shape.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> I told everyone on here in March to lose weight and eat healthy.  I practice what I preach.  Fruits, Veggies, water, air, shelter and nuts.  Get ready.  I dont fat shame anyone, let alone girls.  If you are fat EOTL, please lose weight.  That's my message to you only.  If girls in California are 2021 D1 potential players and have not been allowed to play and want to be impact freshman nest year, then they need to run and run some more and stay in shape.


Fat shaming HS girls now are you?  How is what you’re saying not worse than what the Cal coach said?  It’s pretty hard to answer that question when the only thing you know is that he told a player she needed to be more fit or leaner in order to play.

You are easily manipulated.  You hear the term fat shame and just jump to conclusions even when the only statement identified in the article is that he allegedly told a player she needed to be leaner. The article literally relies on the Fox news (and MSNBC to be fair) tactic of telling listeners what opinion they should have and then letting them make up the facts to support it in their weak-minded brains.


----------



## outside!

I would be curious to know how many commenters have daughters that have played or are playing college soccer.

MacDre wondered how to tell a player she sucks and to kick rocks. The answer is simple, you don't. You communicate that they are not ready for the game by letting them watch from the stands or the bench.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> Fat shaming HS girls now are you?  How is what you’re saying not worse than what the Cal coach said?  It’s pretty hard to answer that question when the only thing you know is that he told a player she needed to be more fit or leaner in order to play.
> 
> You are easily manipulated.  You hear the term fat shame and just jump to conclusions even when the only statement identified in the article is that he allegedly told a player she needed to be leaner. The article literally relies on the Fox news (and MSNBC to be fair) tactic of telling listeners what opinion they should have and then letting them make up the facts to support it in their weak-minded brains.


I said run and stay in shape.  Go play with Kicker over at the top 150 rankings.


----------



## GT45

dad4 said:


> But that is part of what I want to know.  So, if you sign D1, what do you expect?  Your description is a 1/4 chance of injury, a 1/4 chance of less than expected playing time, and a 1/2 chance of wanting to finish out 4 years.
> 
> If that’s true, then studying hard and playing for Harvey Mudd or CalTech is starting to look mighty good.


Sure if you do not want to challenge yourself. Some people want to see if they can make it at a top program. Also, sometimes priorities just change in life. You go from being a child to an adult while you are in college. And, other things may take on priority for some people.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> I said run and stay in shape.  Go play with Kicker over at the top 150 rankings.


So you don’t have any reason to believe the Cal coach actually said anything inappropriate, then?  I want to make sure I’m not missing anything. Now is your chance to add details if you have any Mr. Fat Shamer. Do you know a single thing to support your fat shaming belief other than the Cal coach telling a player she needed to be more fit or leaner in order to play more at a D1 program that everyone here claims should be competing for national titles?

And why, exactly, is it that someone with all the fitness and diet tools in the world at her disposal would go on “crash diets” and engage in other destructive unilateral action when there is no way any coach or athletic department official would ever condone that as a way to become a more effective player?  You’re the exercise guy, so please feel free to explain.


----------



## crush

GT45 said:


> Sure if you do not want to challenge yourself. Some people want to see if they can make it at a top program. Also, sometimes priorities just change in life. You go from being a child to an adult while you are in college. And, other things may take on priority for some people.


And some girls cut themselves at night.  They sleep all alone and they have deal with all the pressure.  They have MAJOR depression.  Wake up guys.  This is not to be taken lightly.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> I would be curious to know how many commenters have daughters that have played or are playing college soccer.
> 
> MacDre wondered how to tell a player she sucks and to kick rocks. The answer is simple, you don't. You communicate that they are not ready for the game by letting them watch from the stands or the bench.


If I recall correctly, your method is precisely what Neil did in at least one instance.  One young lady is complaining because Neil benched her and told her that she’d never play again.  The young lady refused to leave and said it was humiliating that she was the only one that didn’t play.  

I think you are proving my point of the difficulty of delivering bad news and crushing dreams.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> So you don’t have any reason to believe the Cal coach actually said anything inappropriate, then?  I want to make sure I’m not missing anything. Now is your chance to add details if you have any Mr. Fat Shamer. Do you know a single thing to support your fat shaming belief other than the Cal coach telling a player she needed to be more fit or leaner in order to play more at a D1 program that everyone here claims should be competing for national titles?
> 
> And why, exactly, is it that someone with all the fitness and diet tools in the world at her disposal would go on “crash diets” and engage in other destructive unilateral action when there is no way any coach or athletic department official would ever condone that as a way to become a more effective player?  You’re the exercise guy, so please feel free to explain.


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> No.  My point is don't sell your school short.  There is nothing worse than a Trojan (I mean, that is, if you are of a certain old age like yours truly and were a Pac-10 fan or student in the 80s) . . . except maybe a Dodger fan (w/apologies to my late grandparents, Dodger season ticketholders from 1958).


Truth be told, I'm not so much embarrassed as I just keep it on the DL, because it always leads to a bunch of questions due to my personal profile.  I'll say this, my college's football team typically outranked yours, but they we're usually playing with mostly 25 year olds.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> And some girls cut themselves at night.  They sleep all alone and they have deal with all the pressure.  They have MAJOR depression.  Wake up guys.  This is not to be taken lightly.


This is hyperbole intended to support a position that you cannot support factually even from what was alleged so far by the players.

Honestly, claiming that one should not tell a D1 athlete that they need to be more fit to play because they might cut themselves is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous is the fact that this is coming from a guy who put his 10 year old daughter on a track to be a professional soccer player by age 18.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> T*his is hyperbole intended to support a position* that you cannot support factually even from what was alleged so far by the players.
> 
> Honestly, claiming that one should not tell a D1 athlete that they need to be more fit to play because they might cut themselves is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous is the fact that this is coming from a guy who put his 10 year old daughter on a track to be a professional soccer player by age 18.


No it's not.  I do my homework and talk to dads with kids in college.  I swear 100% more and more girls are depressed with life and pressure then at anytime.  Why did the NCAA change the rules bro?  The girls were used and stuck in the middle with guys like that Singer dude and male middle mans making a buck off kids hard work.  Why does youth soccer have to point to college or else to 7th graders?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> No it's not.  I do my homework and talk to dads with kids in college.  I swear 100% more and more girls are depressed with life and pressure then at anytime.  Why did the NCAA change the rules bro?  The girls were used and stuck in the middle with guys like that Singer dude and male middle mans making a buck off kids hard work.  Why does youth soccer have to point to college or else to 7th graders?


Telling your 11 year old daughter that you’re going to tell college coaches that she’s too good for college and she’s going pro at 18 isn’t too much pressure, but telling a 20 year old woman that she needs to be more fit if she’s going to play at a D1 program is too much pressure?  Sure. 

Letting unfit players play over those who put in the work is a very poor way to prevent depression in young women. 

Oh, and Singer had nothing to do with women’s soccer players and depression. None of the kids he got into school even played soccer, and none of them took a scholarship or even a roster spot away from anyone on the team because, duh, they were on the team. Seriously, what the hell are you even talking about? Next, you’ll be claiming Ted Cruz’s dad and the Cuban government conspired to cause depression in young women. In fact, that’s probably a less ridiculous thing to say because I hear JFK was quite popular with the ladies.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> *Telling your 11 year old daughter that you’re going to tell college coaches that she’s too good for college and she’s going pro at 18 isn’t too much pressure, but telling a 20 year old woman that she needs to be more fit if she’s going to play at a D1 program is too much pressure*?  Sure.
> 
> Letting unfit players play over those who put in the work is a very poor way to prevent depression in young women.
> 
> Oh, and Singer had nothing to do with women’s soccer players and depression. None of the kids he got into school even played soccer, and none of them took a scholarship or even a roster spot away from anyone on the team because, duh, they were on the team. Seriously, what the hell are you even talking about? Next, you’ll be claiming Ted Cruz’s dad and the Cuban government conspired to cause depression in young women. In fact, that’s probably a less ridiculous thing to say because I hear JFK was quite popular with the ladies.


The Docs said she could go pro, not me.  I was playing satire on here like I always do Coach.  My dd is going to college, just not sure she will be playing soccer.  She can still go and cheer on the football team and girls soccer team, right?  Can she walk on maybe?  Or is that not allowed Doc?


----------



## dk_b

watfly said:


> Truth be told, I'm not so much embarrassed as I just keep it on the DL, because it always leads to a bunch of questions due to my personal profile.  I'll say this, my college's football team typically outranked yours, but they we're usually playing with mostly 25 year olds.


they had some exciting teams in that era, if I can decipher the clues, Young man.


----------



## watfly

dk_b said:


> they had some exciting teams in that era, if I can decipher the clues, Young man.


I see what you did there, took me a minute, though.  Yep, allegedly won the National Championship my freshman year.


----------



## MrCruett

EOTL said:


> How is what you’re saying not worse than what the Cal coach said?


Other than saying it on the Internet to a virtual idiot?


----------



## crush

I'm going to take the weekend off.  Unless we have breaking news I'll see you all Sunday night.  Be nice to the girls you guys.  They deserve to be treated better then they have been.  Let's all get real.  Peace out!!!


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> If I recall correctly, your method is precisely what Neil did in at least one instance.  One young lady is complaining because Neil benched her and told her that she’d never play again.  The young lady refused to leave and said it was humiliating that she was the only one that didn’t play.
> 
> I think you are proving my point of the difficulty of delivering bad news and crushing dreams.


I think you are missing the point. A coach should not be telling a player she'd never play again. A coach should be telling a player how to improve their performance to earn playing time.

I am astounded that so many people think that all of the 20 something women that came forward did so because of nothing. A coach should be creating an environment that attracts players. Neil has failed at that.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> The Docs said she could go pro, not me.  I was playing satire on here like I always do Coach.  My dd is going to college, just not sure she will be playing soccer.  She can still go and cheer on the football team and girls soccer team, right?  Can she walk on maybe?  Or is that not allowed Doc?


I’m beginning to think your synapses are short-circuiting. You made it quite clear that you were telling coaches you weren’t interested because your daughter was going pro out if HS. You were also quite upset that your daughter wasn’t playing much at a college showcase event because you had specifically told the coach that you weren’t interested in college for your daughter.  You can change your handle all you want. You better get your $15 in action so you can start deleting literally everything you said on this board for almost two years.

But the actual point here is whether you have a single fact to support your assertion that the Cal coach fat shamed anyone.  And, no, telling a D1 athlete that she is needs to be more fit or leaner in order to play is not fat shaming. Anything?  Anything at all Mr. Fat Shamer?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> I'm going to take the weekend off.  Unless we have breaking news I'll see you all Sunday night.  Be nice to the girls you guys.  They deserve to be treated better then they have been.  Let's all get real.  Peace out!!!


Yes, you’ll need the weekend to delete two years worth of posts.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Coaches should be held to the same standard as teachers in the classroom.  If you child's teacher or professor did the things Neil is accused of they would be GONE.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> So how should a coach address fitness with an overweight player?


easy,  pass the beep test or you are not on the travel roster.


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> Coaches should be held to the same standard as teachers in the classroom.  If you child's teacher or professor did the things Neil is accused of they would be GONE.


At Cal no one cares if a freshman is flunking calculus.  No one is gonna create a math circle so the students can “develop” mathematically.  It’s sink or swim.  If a student flunks classes they can be academically disqualified whereas Neil has to deal with tag-a-longs that don’t want to accept that they aren’t good enough.

Lol, think of how ridiculous it would sound for a student that flunked calculus to insist on declaring an impacted major like computer science the same way these young ladies insist on staying on a team when the have essentially flunked D1 soccer. Professors just have more tools at their disposal to get rid of dead weight.


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> easy,  pass the beep test or you are not on the travel roster.


Many folks complain about the beep test.  But, if you go through the ladies complaints, I am relatively sure someone was complaining about being left off of the travel roster.

you and @outside keep proving my point that dream crushing is hard work.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> IL A coach should not be telling a player she'd never play again.


Why not if it’s true?  If the coach doesn’t tell her, then who should?

It’s not Neil job to motivate and encourage, that’s what pay to play club soccer was for.  Theses young ladies should’ve been better prepared for the harsh realities of D1 sports.


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> Why not if it’s true?  If the coach doesn’t tell her, then who should?
> 
> It’s not Neil job to motivate and encourage, that’s what pay to play club soccer was for.  Theses young ladies should’ve been better prepared for the harsh realities of D1 sports.


So you are saying Neil decided she would never play again, even if she improved to the point she was better than the player in her spot on the starting roster? If it isn't a coaches job to motivate and encourage players to get better, then the coaches that do manage to do that are probably the best coaches. When you have a player playing D1 soccer, come back and talk.


----------



## EOTL

eastbaysoccer said:


> easy,  pass the beep test or you are not on the travel roster.


Are you saying a staff should not discuss how a player who is struggling with fitness can become more effective through a specific diet or a exercise regimen?  It seems to me that leaving them to figure out themselves how to pass the beep test will lead to the very type of self help that the one player says she did but only served to negatively affect her overall health. Not discussing weight or fitness issues can also allow undiagnosed health issues to stay that way. A D1 program has all the resources in the world to address health and fitness issues, and the first step is to discuss it, even if the player doesn’t want to hear it.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> So you are saying Neil decided she would never play again, even if she improved to the point she was better than the player in her spot on the starting roster? If it isn't a coaches job to motivate and encourage players to get better, then the coaches that do manage to do that are probably the best coaches. When you have a player playing D1 soccer, come back and talk.


I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by improvement at D1 level.  Technique?  Speed? Strength? Fitness?  The only development I see occurring is if a player can adjust to the speed and physicality of the game at that level.  Some will.  Some won’t.  But there ain’t much development happening in D1 in my opinion.


----------



## happy9

EOTL said:


> Are you saying a staff should not discuss how a player who is struggling with fitness can become more effective through a specific diet or a exercise regimen?  It seems to me that leaving them to figure out themselves how to pass the beep test will lead to the very type of self help that the one player says she did but only served to negatively affect her overall health. Not discussing weight or fitness issues can also allow undiagnosed health issues to stay that way. A D1 program has all the resources in the world to address health and fitness issues, and the first step is to discuss it, even if the player doesn’t want to hear it.


Oh please, the guy sounds like an asshat and seems like he lacks the ability to lead and influence without being an asshat.  Looks like he mainly underperforms when it counts, likely because his players aren't motivated to continue the season beyond the 2nd round of the tournament.  

But we will see.


----------



## EOTL

outside! said:


> I think you are missing the point. A coach should not be telling a player she'd never play again. A coach should be telling a player how to improve their performance to earn playing time.
> 
> I am astounded that so many people think that all of the 20 something women that came forward did so because of nothing. A coach should be creating an environment that attracts players. Neil has failed at that.


I think telling a player they aren’t going to play again (assuming for the sake of argument those were the exact words used) is much better than leading them on that working harder will get them more playing time when the coach knows it won’t make a difference. They can assess and make decisions based on the reality that the coach does not intend to play her no matter how hard she works, whether it’s transferring somewhere she will play, quitting the dream to focus on academics and maybe get an internship with the extra time, or maybe finding a new role as the team’s Rudy. The reality of competitive sports is that often times the hardest work in the world is not even remotely enough to make up the deficit between you and the players in front of you. Even Rudy only played three plays in his entire ND career, and only because the game was under control. Trying to motivate a student athlete to sacrifice more of the student part by working as hard as they can in the gym when the coach knows it isn’t going to make a difference is inexcusable. Ironically, one of the other players complains about that very thing.  Who knows whether the coach thought she could play more if she got more fit, but it is not disputed that she is upset in large part because he allegedly suggested that working harder would get her playing time, and then it didn’t happen.


----------



## Wwood

crush said:


> Is yelling disrespectful?
> You are OFF if you *yell* or are *disrespectful* in any way. This is true regardless of what the other person has done or is doing. Their behavior does not give you the *green light to be harsh or verbally abusive* (such as *yelling*, swearing at, name calling or belittling someone).  Just coaches with power & control.  U Little Female Marines need some tough love from drill Sargant?  BS!!!!


What about Tom Cruise? Are you okay with the way he was yelling??


----------



## happy9

Wwood said:


> What about Tom Cruise? Are you okay with the way he was yelling??


does he play soccer?


----------



## MrCruett

happy9 said:


> Oh please, the guy sounds like an asshat and seems like he lacks the ability to lead and influence without being an asshat.  Looks like he mainly underperforms when it counts, likely because his players aren't motivated to continue the season beyond the 2nd round of the tournament.
> 
> But we will see.


----------



## Sandypk

MacDre said:


> Thank you for your service.  I am not defending, I am investigating.


I am a female, was in the service, and played college soccer.  My college soccer coach, who is still coaching D1, was way harder on us physically than any drill sergeant, commander, or during my overseas experiences.


----------



## msoccerm

crush said:


> And some girls cut themselves at night. They sleep all alone and they have deal with all the pressure. They have MAJOR depression. Wake up guys. This is not to be taken lightly.


It is only my opinion, but if  a player does not already possess the mental/emotional skills to cope with the pressures of all that it takes to play on a D1 team or cut throat team - then they should not put themselves at risk. The trouble is if a player has never faced adversity then they may never have had a chance to develop those coping skills. And some people have personality or anxiety disorders or unresolved trauma that makes me think that they will always struggle in a very competitive environment.


----------



## msoccerm

MacDre said:


> I don’t look at D1 as a development experience. Folks should be developed when they arrived. D1 should be viewed as a finishing school for developed players seeking professional opportunities.
> 
> The fact that many are expecting development and hand holding is indicative of unrealistic expectations on behalf of those players.


Players should come to a program fit and with solid technical skills. But surely a player can expect to be individually developed or are coaches just playing to win?


----------



## Giesbock

MacDre said:


> I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by improvement at D1 level.  Technique?  Speed? Strength? Fitness?  The only development I see occurring is if a player can adjust to the speed and physicality of the game at that level.  Some will.  Some won’t.  But there ain’t much development happening in D1 in my opinion.


You touched on another tangent..”ain’t much development happening in D1 in my opinion”...

if someone aspires to make USNational team, play pro in the US or Europe, and they’re no longer developing once they start playing long ball for AD or whoever, why is playing D1 soccer even in theconversation?

Europe and pretty much the rest of the world has next to zero interest in plateauing as a college player.

aside from playing soccer to get into your reach / dream school, why go that route If development ends there?


----------



## happy9

Sandypk said:


> I am a female, was in the service, and played college soccer.  My college soccer coach, who is still coaching D1, was way harder on us physically than any drill sergeant, commander, or during my overseas experiences.


Oh geez...


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> Players should come to a program fit and with solid technical skills. But surely a player can expect to be individually developed or are coaches just playing to win?


I think self preservation is what we have to think about.  As a practical matter, as a coach why risk your job trying to develop a player instead of focusing on winning the most games and keeping your job.  I’d also guarantee that a coach that plays to win and doesn’t develop has much better job security and reputation than a coach that develops and doesn’t win.


----------



## MacDre

Giesbock said:


> You touched on another tangent..”ain’t much development happening in D1 in my opinion”...
> 
> if someone aspires to make USNational team, play pro in the US or Europe, and they’re no longer developing once they start playing long ball for AD or whoever, why is playing D1 soccer even in theconversation?
> 
> Europe and pretty much the rest of the world has next to zero interest in plateauing as a college player.
> 
> aside from playing soccer to get into your reach / dream school, why go that route If development ends there?


Good question.  My kids pediatrician and coaches at Club Tijuana think girls can go pro at 15.  Hopefully be a franchise player by 19.  If a player is 19 in college hoping to get developed, they are a day late and a dollar short.


----------



## MacDre

Sandypk said:


> I am a female, was in the service, and played college soccer.  My college soccer coach, who is still coaching D1, was way harder on us physically than any drill sergeant, commander, or during my overseas experiences.


Thank you for your service.


----------



## soccer4us

eastbaysoccer said:


> bottom line is NEIL has underperformed when compared to other coaches in the Pac-12 with similar acadmeic profiles.  Stanford, UCLA Zane USC have all won national championships and he barely gets out of the first round.  That IMO is enough to dump him and replace him with a top female coach like Tiffany Roberts and others.


Great school but it's Berkeley, not some amazing city where 18 year olds want to flock to. Palo Alto, Westwood, etc much more attractive city wise. I agree he could have advanced further on average in NCAA's but when you have to face SCU literally every single year in the first round because of the dumb travel reasons for early round games, that's tough too. SCU is good just about every year. Even Stanford have lost to SCU a few times I believe. Maybe, just maybe all the letters of support that's been sent to CAL AD and to the news station will one day be released? Probably not. It's always a 2 way street is all I'm saying. Another factor why some big time coaches may not want CAL is it really doesn't pay too(149k before taxes)well for a big d1 job especially living in the Bay Area. Other areas of the country, that's good. There is a reason he coaches at Mustang and runs some camp program.


----------



## dk_b

soccer4us said:


> Great school but it's Berkeley, not some amazing city where 18 year olds want to flock to. Palo Alto, Westwood, etc much more attractive city wise. I agree he could have advanced further on average in NCAA's but when you have to face SCU literally every single year in the first round because of the dumb travel reasons for early round games, that's tough too. SCU is good just about every year. Even Stanford have lost to SCU a few times I believe. Maybe, just maybe all the letters of support that's been sent to CAL AD and to the news station will one day be released? Probably not. It's always a 2 way street is all I'm saying. Another factor why some big time coaches may not want CAL is it really doesn't pay too(149k before taxes)well for a big d1 job especially living in the Bay Area. Other areas of the country, that's good. There is a reason he coaches at Mustang and runs some camp program.


That is really interesting commentary about Berkeley/Pablo Alto/Westwood/Santa Clara and what 18 year olds want.  As someone who has spent a lot of time in all those communities (less in Westwood/West LA than in the others) and currently spends a lot of time with teenagers and young adults, I think there are a lot of 18 year olds who do want to flock to B-town (and certainly many who prefer something w/a less Berkeley vibe) - under normal times, it is rich mix of food, art, cultural and political history and intellectual vibrancy. For such a small city, it offers a ton (and has proximity to so much more). But I think you are either commenting about your own likes or painting young people with an awfully broad brush.

I agree with you re the unfortunate match-ups against SCU. That has presented a challenge for Cal (losing Indigo to an early red card was just brutal in 2017).  And I agree that coach pay IS a big issue at Cal - it’s a problem throughout the athletic department.  Berkeley is an expensive city and we know that other parts of the Bay are equally pricey.

You should encourage the people who have sent letters of support to make them public. They don’t need the AD’s or KTVU’s permission to release the letters. I’m surprised that that has not happened.


----------



## MacDre

soccer4us said:


> Great school but it's Berkeley, not some amazing city where 18 year olds want to flock to.


Throwing shade at B-town.  Next time you visit Palo Alto and cross the 101 to EPA keep your eyes in your rear view and run all stop signs or you could end up with a pistol in your face.  You have earned yourself a special MacDre dedication:


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> I’m beginning to think your synapses are short-circuiting. *You made it quite clear that you were telling coaches you weren’t interested because your daughter was going pro out if HS*. *You were also quite upset that your daughter wasn’t playing much at a college showcase event because you had specifically told the coach that you weren’t interested in college for your daughter. *


I have to respond.  BTW, food was at Eves in Encinitas for wife's big 50th.  Tasty food   Moon was beautiful with the planets at the Moon Beach.

*Purple response: I consider this old news but it gives gr8t insight into why I have to repeat the truth because liars like you who hurt kids and their families need to be dealt with.  To all my dear friends 46, 43, Luis, Fact, EOTL, Grace, Messy, Outlaw, espola, Long Game, 808, **Keeper** dads and moms, Hound, dad, futbol dad and all the dads and moms out there, this is why I have to keep repeating the truth with satire.  IT is involved with youth sports for girls and is a middleman or or was or still thinks he is to college game. I've been dealing with him since my dd was in 7th grade.  He does not care about kids, trust me.  Some dads share stories of the truth through satire.  What is Satire?  The use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other hot topics like, Socal Youth Soccer: 
*
*All the new people on here and old foes.  Listen up and listen carefully, unless you have me on ignore. * *The Doc and his side kick were telling me and my goat that girls will go pro and not college.  Do you honestly I think I believed them?  They also told me if my dd left the GDA for high school soccer she would never make her dream come true.  That is cruel and not unusual.  They also said if you leave for that second tier washed league called ECNL, well you can kiss that other dream goodbye.  That is cruel and stupid to say to 8th grader,  Plus, no free handouts loser dad.  Oh, and I never chase parents when they want to leave the family, just black list your ass......lol!!!!  BTW, we know everyone in the industry so do your absolute best to........... STFU and while your at it, GTFO too asshat ((thanks Happy))  *

*Red Response:  I never spoke to the Doc your referring to EOTL about college at that time.  Actually it was he that asked my dd where she wanted to ball in college in 8th grade because rules were changing and all he had to do was make a call and they obey him.  Pay up and do as I say and all will go with your soul.  My dd only said she wasnt sure she wanted to go to college ((math teacher in 8th grade was a complete ass and ruin any love she had for the subject)) and she knew to get past that exclusive 4.0 she needed to get an A in Math, Impossible for her little brain at the time.  The pressure was insane.
*
I still think if they paid these girls real living wages and all the perks like the dudes, then my dd could make a run at it after high school.


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> It is only *my opinion, *but if  a player does not already possess the *mental/emotional skills to cope with the pressures of all that it takes to play on a D1 team or cut throat team - then they should not put themselves at risk.* The trouble is if a player has never faced adversity then they may never have had a chance to develop those coping skills. And some *people have personality or anxiety disorders or unresolved trauma* that makes me think that they will always struggle in a very competitive environment.


This whole forum is about opinion.  I do like to add first hand experience to some of MOOs so were all good.  Thanks for sharing BTW.  Here's my opinion. 
I have come to believe that most teens do not share their true feelings with their over bearing parents who demand kid gets 4.0+ and so one.  For example, I share my heart on here and it takes a beaten but keeps on ticking.  I have an open heart.  I have been telling everyone on here that 8 out of 10 girls quit or dont finish school.  Why?  They dont have the skills to cope, that's 100% correct.  Bingo!!! Then we put them in a situation that is impossible for them to handle.  Let's all agree 8 out 10 quit?  Why?  Not all quit because of feeling a little stressed out trying to be goodie little two shoe and not let dad down and her new coach who yells a little.  My dd and I need a little kick here and there but not ultimatums.  I always thought this was a four year relationship with a degree to earn. Now we have first hand witnesses who say D1 girls soccer is more intense then boot camp in the Marines.  Thanks for serving Sandy.


----------



## crush

Wwood said:


> What about Tom Cruise? Are you okay with the way he was yelling??


I was never a fan for personal reason and folks I know who know way more about Mr Cruise the church he attends.  Not a nice guy is all I can say.  He got a new girl who is 20 years younger.  

Preach it bro!!!!


----------



## Giesbock

Well there’s a helluva start to the weekend!


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> Well there’s a helluva start to the weekend!


What are friends foe bro?  Listen man, were all in this together and help is on the way in a very big and I mean BIG way.  I know many in the know so trust me.  I say, get out of the way and let the pros help us.  We ALL need help Giesbock.  Happy Saturday.  Get ready brah.  Do you believe me now?


----------



## Giesbock

crush said:


> What are friends foe bro?  Listen man, were all in this together and help is on the way in a very big and I mean BIG way.  I know many in the know so trust me.  I say, get out of the way and let the pros help us.  We ALL need help Giesbock.  Happy Saturday.  Get ready brah.  Do you believe me now?


I’m not sure what you mean about getting out of the way to let the pros help us?  Please clarify...


----------



## crush

Giesbock said:


> I’m not sure what you mean about getting out of the way to let the pros help us?  Please clarify...


Figure of speech bro


----------



## eastbaysoccer

outside! said:


> So you are saying Neil decided she would never play again, even if she improved to the point she was better than the player in her spot on the starting roster? If it isn't a coaches job to motivate and encourage players to get better, then the coaches that do manage to do that are probably the best coaches. When you have a player playing D1 soccer, come back and talk.


The best coaches are the ones that inspire and motivate.  Players want to


soccer4us said:


> Great school but it's Berkeley, not some amazing city where 18 year olds want to flock to. Palo Alto, Westwood, etc much more attractive city wise. I agree he could have advanced further on average in NCAA's but when you have to face SCU literally every single year in the first round because of the dumb travel reasons for early round games, that's tough too. SCU is good just about every year. Even Stanford have lost to SCU a few times I believe. Maybe, just maybe all the letters of support that's been sent to CAL AD and to the news station will one day be released? Probably not. It's always a 2 way street is all I'm saying. Another factor why some big time coaches may not want CAL is it really doesn't pay too(149k before taxes)well for a big d1 job especially living in the Bay Area. Other areas of the country, that's good. There is a reason he coaches at Mustang and runs some camp program.


Well maybe dump Neil and grab Tracy Hamm at Davis.  She's on the rise and would take the job.  Cal needs to get this negative press off their back and get the focus back on Football and Hoops.


----------



## crush

eastbaysoccer said:


> The best coaches are the ones that inspire and motivate.  Players want to
> 
> 
> Well maybe dump Neil and grab Tracy Hamm at Davis.  She's on the rise and would take the job.  Cal needs to get this negative press off their back and get the focus back on Football and Hoops.


Stud Player.  The Cal Bears are always tough


----------



## crush

Sunday Sermon on Covid Standards at the work place.  Gold standard my ass!!!!  Too much pressure on so many people just to keep a job.  If you dont adhere to the 6 x 6, your out of here.  What a guy to work for.  






I had a sales manager lady boss try to preach to me how fortunate I was to walk around LA trying to peddle yellow pages to small business owners. I swear I would walk in to businesses in Palos Verdes and San Pedro and show them the "Donnelley Directory."  You all remember those commercials, "The book the phone company doesn;t want you to read"  AT&T had a monopoly forever until 1984.  1984 anyone could print a phone book with ads in them. 60% margins, a real Cash Cow is all I can say.  Well, the folks in the South Bay were pissed off because most of the books were never delivered the year I joined the crew.  ABC News found them in trash dumpsters.  The delivery crew got tired and skipped a few cities I heard later.  I went out on the streets all excited and I got yelled & screamed at like no one's business from every business owner in San Pedro & PV,  It was harsh   Miss Manager said it was all my fault I had goose eggs ((no sales my first two weeks)) because I didnt handle objections right. We would roll play and roll play in her dam office every morning before I went out for my beatings.  She went to all girls college in the Mid West and was going to be the boss of all the bosses, that was her goal.  

How she rolled played with me in her office.  Never went out to get yelled out with me either.  I told myself if I ever get a chance to be boss I will always go out and take abuse with my reps.  

Me:  Hi, I'm Hank with Donnelly.  I want to help you get new customers

Her:  Oh great, come on back here and show me your directory

Real Life Objection

Me:  Hi, I'm Frank with Donnelley.  I want to help you get new customers ((clients if Lawyer or Dr))

Lawyer:  Fuck off!!!

Me:  Excuse me

Lawyer: You heard me, F off punk.  BTW, did you see the news last night?  No one in the South Bay received your dam book.  I only advertise in Pac Bell.  Good luck loser.  I would look for something else to cheat folks in instead of telling them you deleiver phones to homes in the South Bay.  Now get loss before I call the cops.  

Me:  Thanks for the intel  

The good news, the DD sold to a private company owned by the O'Malley family and we gave refunds to all the small businesses in the South Bay.  I worked hard and help change the culture and horrible sales training at head quarters.  I took over the sales class and took the class outside in the real world.  It was fun!!!


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> Sunday Sermon on Covid Standards at the work place.  Gold standard my ass!!!!  Too much pressure on so many people just to keep a job.  If you dont adhere to the 6 x 6, your out of here.  What a guy to work for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a sales manager lady boss try to preach to me how fortunate I was to walk around LA trying to peddle yellow pages to small business owners. I swear I would walk in to businesses in Palos Verdes and San Pedro and show them the "Donnelley Directory."  You all remember those commercials, "The book the phone company doesn;t want you to read"  AT&T had a monopoly forever until 1984.  1984 anyone could print a phone book with ads in them. 60% margins, a real Cash Cow is all I can say.  Well, the folks in the South Bay were pissed off because most of the books were never delivered the year I joined the crew.  ABC News found them in trash dumpsters.  The delivery crew got tired and skipped a few cities I heard later.  I went out on the streets all excited and I got yelled & screamed at like no one's business from every business owner in San Pedro & PV,  It was harsh   Miss Manager said it was all my fault I had goose eggs ((no sales my first two weeks)) because I didnt handle objections right. We would roll play and roll play in her dam office every morning before I went out for my beatings.  She went to all girls college in the Mid West and was going to be the boss of all the bosses, that was her goal.
> 
> How she rolled played with me in her office.  Never went out to get yelled out with me either.  I told myself if I ever get a chance to be boss I will always go out and take abuse with my reps.
> 
> Me:  Hi, I'm Hank with Donnelly.  I want to help you get new customers
> 
> Her:  Oh great, come on back here and show me your directory
> 
> Real Life Objection
> 
> Me:  Hi, I'm Frank with Donnelley.  I want to help you get new customers ((clients if Lawyer or Dr))
> 
> Lawyer:  Fuck off!!!
> 
> Me:  Excuse me
> 
> Lawyer: You heard me, F off punk.  BTW, did you see the news last night?  No one in the South Bay received your dam book.  I only advertise in Pac Bell.  Good luck loser.  I would look for something else to cheat folks in instead of telling them you deleiver phones to homes in the South Bay.  Now get loss before I call the cops.
> 
> Me:  Thanks for the intel
> 
> The good news, the DD sold to a private company owned by the O'Malley family and we gave refunds to all the small businesses in the South Bay.  I worked hard and help change the culture and horrible sales training at head quarters.  I took over the sales class and took the class outside in the real world.  It was fun!!!


To be fair, the whole crew was out of work if they had a major outbreak on set.  Anyone violating the covid rules was putting everyone else’s job at risk, not just his own.


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> To be fair, the whole crew was out of work if they had a major outbreak on set.  Anyone violating the covid rules was putting everyone else’s job at risk, not just his own.


To be fair, it was only two crew members who were under the 6 feet rule or two meter rule.  That rule is broken every second of the day.  So much pressure.  At least he has a company to yell at.  Special waiver for him but not for others?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> To be fair, it was only two crew members who were under the 6 feet rule or two meter rule.  That rule is broken every second of the day.  So much pressure.  At least he has a company to yell at.  Special waiver for him but not for others?


How do you know it was only the two?  How do you know it wasn’t just the latest of a number of people breaking the rules and jeopardizing the jobs of everyone on the set? If staying six feet apart from your co-workers - especially when mandated by your employer - is too much pressure for you, you should not be employed. Are you so lacking in self-discpline, do you so lack empathy for the health safety of your co-workers, that you think people should be able to flaunt workplace social distancing guidelines with no repercussions?

I don’t care for Tom Cruise, but good for him. Sometimes an example needs to be made of denialists and those who don’t care about the welfare of others. The one thing he did wrong was to not fire them on the spot. Regardless, how many people do you think will violate the safety protocols/violate OSHA guidelines going forward?


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> How do you know it was only the two?  How do you know it wasn’t just the latest of a number of people breaking the rules and jeopardizing the jobs of everyone on the set? If staying six feet apart from your co-workers - especially when mandated by your employer - is too much pressure for you, you should not be employed. Are you so lacking in self-discpline, do you so lack empathy for the health safety of your co-workers, that you think people should be able to flaunt workplace social distancing guidelines with no repercussions?
> 
> I don’t care for Tom Cruise, but good for him. Sometimes an example needs to be made of denialists and those who don’t care about the welfare of others. The one thing he did wrong was to not fire them on the spot. Regardless, how many people do you think will violate the safety protocols/violate OSHA guidelines going forward?


I watched the long version of TMZ.  Plus, they used to say in March that 6 feet stay rule was for folks without a mask on.  You can sit next to your wife and eat without a mask, no?  Happy Sunday to you and may whatever force your with slowly lose its power and then become like a nice little puppy dog.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> How do you know it was only the two?  How do you know it wasn’t just the latest of a number of people breaking the rules and jeopardizing the jobs of everyone on the set? If staying six feet apart from your co-workers - especially when mandated by your employer - is too much pressure for you, you should not be employed. Are you so lacking in self-discpline, do you so lack empathy for the health safety of your co-workers, that you think people should be able to flaunt workplace social distancing guidelines with no repercussions?
> 
> I don’t care for Tom Cruise, but good for him. Sometimes an example needs to be made of denialists and those who don’t care about the welfare of others. The one thing he did wrong was to not fire them on the spot. Regardless, how many people do you think will violate the safety protocols/violate OSHA guidelines going forward?


Tell it to these guys too then.  "Hey workers, back away, 6 feet only. mask or no mask.  I figured knowing you so well that you would love that tone.  Ah Ah, What's up Doc?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> I watched the long version of TMZ.  Plus, they used to say in March that 6 feet stay rule was for folks without a mask on.  You can sit next to your wife and eat without a mask, no?  Happy Sunday to you and may whatever force your with slowly lose its power and then become like a nice little puppy dog.


TMZ, eh? Is that part of your tv rotation along and Newsmax, OAN and Keeping up with Kardashians?


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> Tell it to these guys too then.  "Hey workers, back away, 6 feet only. mask or no mask.  I figured knowing you so well that you would love that tone.  Ah Ah, What's up Doc?
> 
> View attachment 9746


Those guys work on a movie set?  Or are you saying the set of Mission Impossible has the same urgency as people ensuring fire, police and ambulance services, as well as essential workers can get where they need to go? 

Why don’t you just get back to fat shaming people?


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> TMZ, eh? Is that part of your tv rotation along and Newsmax, OAN and Keeping up with Kardashians?


No, I dont have TV.  I dont have money to pay for it, seriously.  Tough tough times right now for our family.  I can;t even pay the $60 so my dd can get ranked for once in her life.  For the record Doc___________.  I looked on Google and typed, "Tom Cruise Rant"  I then listen to a few people talk about who was there and why Tom was so pissed off at his employees.  He feels the load of all of Hollywood and the stress is getting to him.  All night everyone is calling him.  His movie has to be a hit.  No one is watching movies of these "actors" anymore.  Hello mic fly!!!!  Seriously bro, do you think only he should be able to make movies, money and provide cash for his ungrateful and mutherfudrukers employees of his who have to work in near death environments just so they can put fuc*ing food on the table and make sure little Sally and Susie soccer player can get a college education.  We can;t have that now.


----------



## dad4

crush said:


> To be fair, it was only two crew members who were under the 6 feet rule or two meter rule.  That rule is broken every second of the day.  So much pressure.  At least he has a company to yell at.  Special waiver for him but not for others?


Not everyone shares your view on breaking covid rules.

You think “everyone breaks these rules so I should, too.”

Cayman Islands thinks “spoiled American wants to break the rules, she can quarantine in prison for 4 months.”

They’ve had a grand total of 311 cases.   Even accounting for population, that’s less than 1/10 of the US rate.  I guess the virus doesn’t virus there, huh?


----------



## crush

dad4 said:


> Not everyone shares your view on breaking covid rules.
> 
> You think “everyone breaks these rules so I should, too.”
> 
> Cayman Islands thinks “spoiled American wants to break the rules, she can quarantine in prison for 4 months.”
> 
> They’ve had a grand total of 311 cases.   Even accounting for population, that’s less than 1/10 of the US rate.  I guess the virus doesn’t virus there, huh?


I dont break the Rona Rules.  I can;t walk around if I even try.  I will 100% get Tom Cruised if I break a rule.  Color me this.  Can two ambulance drivers break the 6 x 6?  My issue is the yelling part, not the breaking of the rules.  Tom is acting like the actor he truly is.  Tell your pal EOTL that Tom Hanx is alive so I'm not buying into all that fear based garbage out there.  I said this long long ago, two choices to pick.  Light or dark.  I 100% believe that and that only.  Bible, church and all the religion is all made mad.  Glory be to Christ and his conscious only.  God I want that so bad you have no idea.  Love, peace, patience, kindness, honesty, no cheating, no kick backs, no nothing.  Only love and light from everything that is pure.  BTW, we will still have competitive sports, just no waivers and cheating allowed and kiss ass dads getting what they want for their boy..  Seems that Jesus ran the 100 pretty good and Peter was good at fencing.  Judes was really good being in charge of the money.  Paul was sailor.  Let the games begin.  Cheaters who cheat will be 100% disqualified in this new game.  Stop cheating right now and then come play and you will get the best prize ever that you truly earn.


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> No, I dont have TV.  I dont have money to pay for it, seriously.  Tough tough times right now for our family.  I can;t even pay the $60 so my dd can get ranked for once in her life.  For the record Doc___________.  I looked on Google and typed, "Tom Cruise Rant"  I then listen to a few people talk about who was there and why Tom was so pissed off at his employees.  He feels the load of all of Hollywood and the stress is getting to him.  All night everyone is calling him.  His movie has to be a hit.  No one is watching movies of these "actors" anymore.  Hello mic fly!!!!  Seriously bro, do you think only he should be able to make movies, money and provide cash for his ungrateful and mutherfudrukers employees of his who have to work in near death environments just so they can put fuc*ing food on the table and make sure little Sally and Susie soccer player can get a college education.  We can;t have that now.


Tom does not need his movie to be a success. He’s done pretty well for himself, or so I hear. You are mentally ill if you’re upset at someone who is doing his best to - safely - help get others to work. Those two dumbf**ks were jeopardizing income for everyone around them. And that’s exactly what people like you are doing when you encourage others to do whatever the f**k they want. Congratulations for your contribution to where we are right now. You’d be working right now if you and your denialist, it isn’t that bad, let’s go play kiddie soccer and hang out in bars, demanding that teachers put themselves in danger because you’re unwilling to step in and fill the gaps during this crisis dumbf**k friends had any brains at all and could see past tomorrow. Continue feeling sorry for yourself, because I don’t. Over the last ten months you’ve earned what you got.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> Tom does not need his movie to be a success. He’s done pretty well for himself, or so I hear. You are mentally ill if you’re upset at someone who is doing his best to - safely - help get others to work. Those two dumbf**ks were jeopardizing income for everyone around them. And that’s exactly what people like you are doing when you encourage others to do whatever the f**k they want. Congratulations for your contribution to where we are right now. You’d be working right now if you and your denialist, it isn’t that bad, let’s go play kiddie soccer and hang out in bars, demanding that teachers put themselves in danger because you’re unwilling to step in and fill the gaps during this crisis dumbf**k friends had any brains at all and could see past tomorrow. Continue feeling sorry for yourself, because I don’t. Over the last ten months you’ve earned what you got.


Wow, such kindness tonight.  Are you ok, little man?


----------



## kickingandscreaming

crush said:


> Wow, such kindness tonight.  Are you ok, little man?


Don't worry. In a few nights, he'll be visited by three spirits.


----------



## crush

kickingandscreaming said:


> Don't worry. In a few nights, he'll be visited by three spirits.


Spirits are coming out at 12am.  Do NOT let any old spirit in your life.  They be looking to take over any soul that is willing.  Talk about a homeless spirit world were about to enter.


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> Why don’t you just get back to fat shaming people?


“I’ve been talking about this since the transition in 2016, *how dangerous I thought General Flynn was,*” Christie said. “I sat with him in security briefings with the then-candidate Donald Trump, and then with President Donald Trump, and I will tell you that *he is not fit* to be giving advice to anyone.”
And you are the fit one to teach us all how fit you are and the General is not fit?  Oh please, what a crock of sh*t this guy is.  I can see with my eyes.  You have no room to talk Christopher.  Now way!!!!



*Or is this guy fit?*​


----------



## outside!

MacDre said:


> I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by improvement at D1 level.  Technique?  Speed? Strength? Fitness?  The only development I see occurring is if a player can adjust to the speed and physicality of the game at that level.  Some will.  Some won’t.  But there ain’t much development happening in D1 in my opinion.


Catarina Macario talked about how much she developed as a player at Stanford. I cannot think of any player that was more prepared as a freshman to play D1 soccer, yet she continued to develop. Any player that does not develop while playing D1 soccer will see decreased play time. Wait a few years and if things work out for your DD, you will change your mind on the development issue. Maybe you peaked when you were 18, but everyone is different.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> Catarina Macario talked about how much she developed as a player at Stanford. I cannot think of any player that was more prepared as a freshman to play D1 soccer, yet she continued to develop. Any player that does not develop while playing D1 soccer will see decreased play time. Wait a few years and if things work out for your DD, you will change your mind on the development issue. Maybe you peaked when you were 18, but everyone is different.


I don’t believe Macario’s statement.  I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team.  Do you really think Macario can be candid?  How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?

Girls aren’t developing much after 15.  So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues.  Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> I don’t believe Macario’s statement.  I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team.  Do you really think Macario can be candid?  How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?
> 
> Girls aren’t developing much after 15.  So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues.  Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.


What experience or examples do you have to support your position that girls aren’t developing much after 15?

 Julie Ertz completely turned her career around after being dropped from the WNT player pool.  Went out to NJ and trained with Carli Lloyd and a few others to redevelop her game.  Came splashing back into the fold before the World Cup and has developed herself into  a major component of the teams success.


----------



## El Clasico

MacDre said:


> I don’t believe Macario’s statement.  I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team.  Do you really think Macario can be candid?  How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?
> 
> *I can agree with that. At least to some degree.*
> 
> Girls aren’t developing much after 15.  So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues.  Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.


*This, not so much. Please clarify.*

Aren't developing physically?
Aren't developing technically?
Aren't developing tactically?

I would argue that after 15 is when you are really able to start understanding the nuances of the game and you see more "game development". Understanding and implementing tactics and concepts.  Add in a little more technical development and the player starts to come into their own. I think that is where the US struggles, is we have very few coaches, or programs, that can develop players between the ages of 16 and 20-21.


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> I don’t believe Macario’s statement.  I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team.  Do you really think Macario can be candid?  How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?
> 
> Girls aren’t developing much after 15.  So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues.  Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.


I hear what you are saying but she did not win in her frosh year - Andi Sullivan did.  Whether they are developing, I leave that to the soccer folks. I know that there are some folks that consider that period - 18 to 22 - as a time of physical and mental maturity among athletes.  Maybe they'd grow as players regardless of the situation but unless they can make a living in a pro club at that age, having all or some of college paid for (and all of their training paid for) in a critical time can't hurt (in my view anyway).


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> What experience or examples do you have to support your position that girls aren’t developing much after 15?
> 
> Julie Ertz completely turned her career around after being dropped from the WNT player pool.  Went out to NJ and trained with Carli Lloyd and a few others to redevelop her game.  Came splashing back into the fold before the World Cup and has developed herself into  a major component of the teams success.


I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz.  I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels.  Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz.  Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer.  I don’t know that I’d call that development though.


----------



## MacDre

El Clasico said:


> *This, not so much. Please clarify.*
> 
> Aren't developing physically?
> Aren't developing technically?
> Aren't developing tactically?
> 
> I would argue that after 15 is when you are really able to start understanding the nuances of the game and you see more "game development". Understanding and implementing tactics and concepts.  Add in a little more technical development and the player starts to come into their own. I think that is where the US struggles, is we have very few coaches, or programs, that can develop players between the ages of 16 and 20-21.


I agree but you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.  You have to have the genetics.  One of my kids besties is a great artist that would give Bob Ross a run for his money.  On the other hand my kid is artistically challenged and despite all the help in the world, she will forever suck at art.  Folks need to understand that everything ain’t for everybody.  Get in where you fit in!


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz.  I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels.  Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz.  Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer.  I don’t know that I’d call that development though.


Dude...she made all the aforementioned accomplishments prior to meeting her husband. 

Heck. Alex Morgan would be another example of someone who really developed later in her career since she really didn’t start playing competitively till she was 12.  

You may have something with having the ability to play at a higher level, but even elite players continue to develop well into their 20’s.  Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy are to names I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## EOTL

MacDre said:


> I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz.  I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels.  Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz.  Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer.  I don’t know that I’d call that development though.


She was a rock star on the WNT as Johnston. That said, I agree with you there isn’t a lot of development in college, and she is a good example of that. Her college “development” only caused her to initially flounder as a pro until she turned things around training with the likes of Carli Lloyd.

Macario is probably the worst possible example to use as proof that players develop significantly in college. She is perhaps the only player in college for whom a lucrative pro career is an absolute lock, and she therefore has the motivation to engage in additional training and effort that does not exist for anyone else. To the extent she has developed significantly, it is in large part due to her use of Stanford’s resources beyond the limited time NCAA rules allow for team activities.


----------



## happy9

MacDre said:


> I agree but you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.  You have to have the genetics.  One of my kids besties is a great artist that would give Bob Ross a run for his money.  On the other hand my kid is artistically challenged and despite all the help in the world, she will forever suck at art.  Folks need to understand that everything ain’t for everybody.  Get in where you fit in!


Hmm, this can be a slippery slope.  We can discuss the pathways for early and late bloomers until we are blue in the face.

But yes, people certainly have ceilings.  Some ceilings are tall, some not so tall.  Every example of an early bloomer finding success at the U12 world championship in ____(insert sport here), you can find an example of a late bloomer going pro.

I suppose I would agree that by age 15, you could determine whether your kid can chew gum and dribble or just play the hell out of the flute.

I know that both of my kids couldn't paint a fence or beat a drum - but both can break your ankles with their cross over dribble on the bball court or break your hands with their strike from just outside the 18.  Part of me wishes they would have continued with instruments when they were younger, but they sucked.


----------



## crush

dk_b said:


> I hear what you are saying but she did not win in her frosh year - Andi Sullivan did.  Whether they are developing, I leave that to the soccer folks. I know that there are some folks that consider that period - 18 to 22 - as a time of physical and mental maturity among athletes.  Maybe they'd grow as players regardless of the situation but unless they can make a living in a pro club at that age, having all or some of college paid for (and all of their training paid for) in a critical time can't hurt (in my view anyway).


Best take of the week bro.  I hear some of the very top programs practice 3-5 hours a day.  Not a lot of outside fun really for the best of the best and who wants to get in the game.


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> Dude...she made all the aforementioned accomplishments prior to meeting her husband.
> 
> Heck. Alex Morgan would be another example of someone who really developed later in her career since she really didn’t start playing competitively till she was 12.
> 
> You may have something with having the ability to play at a higher level, but even elite players continue to develop well into their 20’s.  Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy are to names I can think of off the top of my head.


Damn it, you got me.  But, I think for the most part all of the examples you gave are outliers that had higher ceilings than most.  I’d also bet that you could tell all of those athletes were special at 15.  I think that guy Wando in the MLS supports your position too.


----------



## GT45

crush said:


> Best take of the week bro.  I hear some of the very top programs practice 3-5 hours a day.  Not a lot of outside fun really for the best of the best and who wants to get in the game.


Nah man don't believe that b.s. NCAA rules only allow 4 hours per day for your sport. Sure an injured player may use up all four hours when you included time in the training room before and after practice. But no one is on the pitch for 4 hours. 2 to 2.5 hours tops.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> *Damn it, you got me.*


----------



## crush

GT45 said:


> Nah man don't believe that b.s. NCAA rules only allow 4 hours per day for your sport. Sure an injured player may use up all four hours when you included time in the training room before and after practice. But no one is on the pitch for 4 hours. 2 to 2.5 hours tops.


Cool, thanks for the update.


----------



## crush




----------



## outside!

So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?


----------



## crush

outside! said:


> So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?


I believe that my dd will develop to her full potential as a D1 player and will be even better today because of great coaches, great players, great support from Alumni and Admin that cares about their student athletes.  I believe 100% Outside.  Please stop ignoring me bro.


----------



## Kicker4Life

outside! said:


> So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?


I think I am one of many who supports that position.


----------



## MacDre

outside! said:


> That is not development?


I would say it’s wishful thinking or Ebonically speaking “you’re putting the paint where it ain’t.”

I would say soccer development is analogous to foreign language development and that occurs when young in order to have native fluency.

One can study a foreign language in high school and college but will never attain native fluency; maybe they’ll see improvement but will never develop native fluency in both foreign language and soccer at such late age.


----------



## dk_b

Kicker4Life said:


> I think I am one of many who supports that position.


I do, too.  My point upthread was not that I don't think college players develop.  I think every elite athlete continues to develop and being around others on the same path is great for growth. These athletes would develop in a different environment, too, but that does not that I think college stunts their growth - I don't think that.  And some coaches are going to be better at developing than others - that's always been the case in every sport, in every era.  Otherwise, one would have to think that the only difference between an elite U16 squad (say an all-star squad) and a college squad is the physical growth and I don't believe that.

I was once watching a college game with someone who knows a lot more about soccer - tactics, etc. - than I do. He asked me if I thought a particular elite elite youth squad could beat a D1 college team that was particularly down.  I said, "no chance".  I explained that while some or even most of the girls could be on the field and do OK, that we were looking at one squad entirely made up of college players and trying to compare a squad of kids - physically, mentally, experientially, there is just no comparison. And all you need to do is take an elite youth squad that has, say, 13 or 15 D1 commits and look at how many get meaningful playing time as frosh. W/very rare exception, it will be a small number. As a group, those girls at 15 or 16 would get smashed by a college squad in every metric.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> I don’t believe Macario’s statement.  I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team.  Do you really think Macario can be candid?  How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?
> 
> Girls aren’t developing much after 15.  So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues.  Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.


This is dumbest shit I’ve read on this forum all year. Including the covid talk. You have zero clue about anything related to women’s sports, women’s physiology, or soccer. I’d love to go on and provide the decades worth of actual data, studies, player profiles, statistical analysis of not only American female players but also international players that clearly shows not only physical development in ages 15-18,18-22, 22-24 and beyond but more importantly technically, tactical and mental advances. FFS what is up with this forum sometimes.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> I would say it’s wishful thinking or Ebonically speaking “you’re putting the paint where it ain’t.”
> 
> I would say soccer development is analogous to foreign language development and that occurs when young in order to have native fluency.
> 
> One can study a foreign language in high school and college but will never attain native fluency; maybe they’ll see improvement but will never develop native fluency in both foreign language and soccer at such late age.


Hope Solo respectfully disagrees with you, MD, and she's the best female in history to ever play the position.


----------



## warrior49

outside! said:


> So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?


I agree with you. It's a fact that athletes continue to develop, regardless of the sport, as they grow and mature as players. How many 18-year-old soccer players are playing pro? Like right from high school? My DD's D1 coach once told her, "Women's soccer players, in general, haven't fully developed until 22-23 years old." Of course there are rare exceptions. But with that thinking, the NWSL should be loaded with fresh out of high school players who bypassed college.


----------



## dk_b

warrior49 said:


> I agree with you. It's a fact that athletes continue to develop, regardless of the sport, as they grow and mature as players. How many 18-year-old soccer players are playing pro? Like right from high school? My DD's D1 coach once told her, "Women's soccer players, in general, haven't fully developed until 22-23 years old." Of course there are rare exceptions. But with that thinking, the NWSL should be loaded with fresh out of high school players who bypassed college.


During recruiting, one of the coaches told my daughter - a GK - that a GK's peak is in her late 20s when her physical abilities can match how she reads/understands the game.  The latter piece will continue beyond that so that greater knowledge can contribute to improved play even if the physical skills plateau or even regress.  That applies to some degree to field players, too (I can think of some players who use that craftiness into their 30s so that they remain effective)


----------



## suzysoccer1

warrior49 said:


> I agree with you. It's a fact that athletes continue to develop, regardless of the sport, as they grow and mature as players. How many 18-year-old soccer players are playing pro? Like right from high school? My DD's D1 coach once told her, "Women's soccer players, in general, haven't fully developed until 22-23 years old." Of course there are rare exceptions. But with that thinking, the NWSL should be loaded with fresh out of high school players who bypassed college.


Correct!  Look at Bethany Balcer. Just called into senior US women’s national team camp, and fresh off being asked to train with OL in France. Played NAIA college soccer, undrafted by NWSL. Went to a cattle call tryout made the Reign team, ROY. Now is absolutely killing it as a pro. These players and stories like this are literally all over women’s soccer.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> This is dumbest shit I’ve read on this forum all year. Including the covid talk. You have zero clue about anything related to women’s sports, women’s physiology, or soccer. I’d love to go on and provide the decades worth of actual data, studies, player profiles, statistical analysis of not only American female players but also international players that clearly shows not only physical development in ages 15-18,18-22, 22-24 and beyond but more importantly technically, tactical and mental advances. FFS what is up with this forum sometimes.


I agree.  But you are still talking about the “Internationals” with a higher ceiling that were I’d early. I’m not saying elite athletes stop growing at 15.  However, I am saying the vast majority of folks hit their ceiling when they are 15 or earlier.  The folks that you are talking about are the exception to the rule due to the exceptional genetics and hard-work.  The few folks that develop in college turn pro.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> I agree.  But you are still talking about the “Internationals” with a higher ceiling that were I’d early. I’m not saying elite athletes stop growing at 15.  However, I am saying the vast majority of folks hit their ceiling when they are 15 or earlier.  The folks that you are talking about are the exception to the rule due to the exceptional genetics and hard-work.  The few folks that develop in college turn pro.


No you said “girls” stop developing in soccer at 15. Which is not only wrong it’s sexist as all hell.  I then stated many points and only once mentioned international players as research can include them as well. You cherry picked that one word. So let me be clear. ALL girls who play soccer show development past age 15. Also Genetics means shit. No one is running a DNA panel on Suzy soccer player to determine her chromosome make up. what your doing is what dumb soccer dads do, saying their daughters have good “genes” because her dad played some ball 30 years ago. You are not a scientist. Get over your ego and stop wasting people’s time with your pseudo soccer dad bullshit. You use all the buzz words of a soccer hack. Genetics, hard work, goat, elite, etc. just put down your keyboard find a quiet place and think hard. Then go do some actual research. I can send you some links if you need help and when your head starts hurting and it will, keep going that means your getting smarter.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> Correct!  Look at Bethany Balcer. Just called into senior US women’s national team camp, and fresh off being asked to train with OL in France. Played NAIA college soccer, undrafted by NWSL. Went to a cattle call tryout made the Reign team, ROY. Now is absolutely killing it as a pro. These players and stories like this are literally all over women’s soccer.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And aren’t you embellishing with your claim that “stories like this are literally all over women’s soccer.”  

I’ve witnessed the women aged 25-30 struggling chasing the first team carrot at my kids club.  I leave room for the possibility that I wrong because my viewpoint is based on my limited personal experience.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And aren’t you embellishing with your claim that “stories like this are literally all over women’s soccer.”
> 
> I’ve witnessed the women aged 25-30 struggling chasing the first team carrot at my kids club.  I leave room for the possibility that I wrong because my viewpoint is based on my limited personal experience.


Ok I will play your game. How many players do you want ? What number satisfies you?


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> No you said “girls” stop developing in soccer at 15. Which is not only wrong it’s sexist as all hell.  I then stated many points and only once mentioned international players as research can include them as well. You cherry picked that one word. So let me be clear. ALL girls who play soccer show development past age 15. Also Genetics means shit. No one is running a DNA panel on Suzy soccer player to determine her chromosome make up. what your doing is what dumb soccer dads do, saying their daughters have good “genes” because her dad played some ball 30 years ago. You are not a scientist. Get over your ego and stop wasting people’s time with your pseudo soccer dad bullshit. You use all the buzz words of a soccer hack. Genetics, hard work, goat, elite, etc. just put down your keyboard find a quiet place and think hard. Then go do some actual research. I can send you some links if you need help and when your head starts hurting and it will, keep going that means your getting smarter.


I also maintain what I said.  My point is that by 15 it’s obvious who has what it takes.  Back in my days, it was the rare freshman that could play varsity (male or female) that had what it takes.  So to be clear, my position is that if you ain’t got it by 15, you ain’t gonna get it.  Period.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> Ok I will play your game. How many players do you want ? What number satisfies you?


You can’t substantiate your ridiculous claim.  Your analysis is funny as hell but mostly puffery and baseless claims.


----------



## EOTL

suzysoccer1 said:


> This is dumbest shit I’ve read on this forum all year. Including the covid talk. You have zero clue about anything related to women’s sports, women’s physiology, or soccer. I’d love to go on and provide the decades worth of actual data, studies, player profiles, statistical analysis of not only American female players but also international players that clearly shows not only physical development in ages 15-18,18-22, 22-24 and beyond but more importantly technically, tactical and mental advances. FFS what is up with this forum sometimes.


Congrats @MSK357 and @Grace T. @suzysoccer1 says you are off the hook.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> You can’t substantiate your ridiculous claim.  Your analysis is funny as hell but mostly puffery and baseless claims.


No I actually can. Man up dude. How many? Also you actually saying the phrase “back in my day” and your not trying to be funny is sad.


----------



## crush

warrior49 said:


> I agree with you. It's a fact that athletes continue to develop, regardless of the sport, as they grow and mature as players. How many 18-year-old soccer players are playing pro? Like right from high school? My DD's D1 coach once told her, "Women's soccer players, in general, haven't fully developed until 22-23 years old." Of course there are rare exceptions. But with that thinking, the NWSL should be loaded with fresh out of high school players who bypassed college.


One can still dream that, right 49?  It's only my dad dream for my dd life.  She actually wants to go to school and do media or communications.   Also, thanks Suzy for sharing with us.  I swear I'm trying to be a better dad.  Some of these dads ((Dre)) need help and do not speak on behalf of the rest of us.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> No I actually can. Man up dude. How many? Also you actually saying the phrase “back in my day” and your not trying to be funny is sad.


Giving numbers without context doesn’t help. Please continue to entertain us with your delusions.  When was the last time you had your meds adjusted?  I think you need to talk with your doctor about prescribing different “happy pills” because your current regimen isn’t working for you.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And aren’t you embellishing with your claim that “stories like this are literally all over women’s soccer.”
> 
> I’ve witnessed the women aged 25-30 struggling chasing the first team carrot at my kids club.  I leave room for the possibility that I wrong because my viewpoint is based on my limited personal experience.


Not embellishing anything. This is ca


crush said:


> One can still dream that, right 49?  It's only my dad dream for my dd life.  She actually wants to go to school and do media or communications.   Also, thanks Suzy for sharing with us.  I swear I'm trying to be a better dad.  Some of these dads ((Dre)) need help and do not speak on behalf of the rest of us.


I do apologize for the responses. I wish I could just say who I am. I think then the message gets across with more of an impact. However I have kids and their soccer journey needs to be their own free of additional soccer turmoil brought on by this forum. I would say this as my parting words to soccer dads. Your daughters love you and want to please you, but at some point they learn who you are. They hear you talk. Girls observe body language and voice tone different than boys. Girls will alter their opinion at times to make you proud of them. Try to not devalue them. Soccer is emotionally hard for all players. Many do not yet posses the life skills to process the physical and psychological aspects of being a female athlete in a male dominated sport. Be a supporter of them. All of them.  Trust me they have enough to deal with from coaches, teammates, competitors and mostly themselves without soccer dads comparing their existence and experiences to their daughters soccer career. Yes this is preachy and again for that I am sorry. It just gets to be too much in this forum sometimes with the macho bullshit.


----------



## myself

MacDre said:


> I agree.  But you are still talking about the “Internationals” with a higher ceiling that were I’d early. I’m not saying elite athletes stop growing at 15.  However, I am saying the vast majority of folks hit their ceiling when they are 15 or earlier.  The folks that you are talking about are the exception to the rule due to the exceptional genetics and hard-work.  The few folks that develop in college turn pro.


My dude, you are fun to have here on the forum, but you say crazy shit sometimes


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> Giving numbers without context doesn’t help. Please continue to entertain us with your delusions.  When was the last time you had your meds adjusted?  I think you need to talk with your doctor about prescribing different “happy pills” because your current regimen isn’t working for you.


Yeah I figured this would be your response. Uneducated, personal attacks, merit less and void of anything to offer anybody of substance on here. You offer nothing to this forum. Your a waste of everyone’s time. You would of been laughed of this forum 5-7 years ago. You post nothing but anti soccer girl rhetoric. You think your some kind of in the know soccer dad. You don’t know shit. I’ve been kicking your ass all day on this forum, and your reply was about happy pills! That’s it. So why don’t you go take some pills to grow a bigger dick and balls. Merry Christmas


----------



## warrior49

myself said:


> My dude, you are fun to have here on the forum, but you say crazy shit sometimes


Same guy who thinks Neil is a good coach


----------



## crush

suzysoccer1 said:


> Not embellishing anything. This is ca
> 
> I do apologize for the responses. I wish I could just say who I am. I think then the message gets across with more of an impact. However I have kids and their soccer journey needs to be their own free of additional soccer turmoil brought on by this forum. I would say this as my parting words to soccer dads. Your daughters love you and want to please you, but at some point they learn who you are. They hear you talk. Girls observe body language and voice tone different than boys. Girls will alter their opinion at times to make you proud of them. Try to not devalue them. Soccer is emotionally hard for all players. Many do not yet posses the life skills to process the physical and psychological aspects of being a female athlete in a male dominated sport. Be a supporter of them. All of them.  Trust me they have enough to deal with from coaches, teammates, competitors and mostly themselves without soccer dads comparing their existence and experiences to their daughters soccer career. Yes this is preachy and again for that I am sorry. It just gets to be too much in this forum sometimes with the macho bullshit.


Men have messed up Suzy and i 100% have learned that from my wife and my dd.  Thanks for your strong words.


----------



## MacDre

myself said:


> My dude, you are fun to have here on the forum, but you say crazy shit sometimes


Man, I’m trying to lace these squares.  But most of them are too “game goofy” to soak up what I am saying.


----------



## Copa9

outside! said:


> I think you are missing the point. A coach should not be telling a player she'd never play again. A coach should be telling a player how to improve their performance to earn playing time.
> 
> I am astounded that so many people think that all of the 20 something women that came forward did so because of nothing. A coach should be creating an environment that attracts players. Neil has failed at that.


Twenty women over how many years?  Ten years?  When did he start?


----------



## crush

suzysoccer1 said:


> Yeah I figured this would be your response. Uneducated, personal attacks, merit less and void of anything to offer anybody of substance on here. You offer nothing to this forum. Your a waste of everyone’s time. You would of been laughed of this forum 5-7 years ago. You post nothing but anti soccer girl rhetoric. You think your some kind of in the know soccer dad. You don’t know shit. I’ve been kicking your ass all day on this forum, and your reply was about happy pills! That’s it. So why don’t you go take some pills to grow a bigger dick and balls. Merry Christmas


So many on here told me I was on meds and one crazy ass dad driving my "goat" all over socal chasing medals for myself, like some uncle Rico.  I played sports and I was good, but not even close to hw good my dd is.  I was happy in Temecula driving 5 minutes to practice and games 10 minutes away.  It all changed when the great Tad had to start checking out my dd games and go to all her games and take notes.  My wife grew up with a friend that played for the Legend coach who knows more about females then any coach out there, for 7 years.  He went to her weeding.  It was fun back then.  The men messed this all up.  If ALL THE MEN would just own up to their pride, greed and trying to play through dd soccer career, then all the better.  I can say 100% I never forced my dd or bribed her to play soccer so she can play in college so I can look good as a parent.  Hell no.  My dd plays for the love of the game.  That's why I would go with her if she wanted to ball in AZ at Surf Cup.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> Yeah I figured this would be your response. Uneducated, personal attacks, merit less and void of anything to offer anybody of substance on here. You offer nothing to this forum. Your a waste of everyone’s time. You would of been laughed of this forum 5-7 years ago. You post nothing but anti soccer girl rhetoric. You think your some kind of in the know soccer dad. You don’t know shit. I’ve been kicking your ass all day on this forum, and your reply was about happy pills! That’s it. So why don’t you go take some pills to grow a bigger dick and balls. Merry Christmas


You’re hella funny Suzy.  Suzy you don’t know me or who I know.  Why are you all into your feelings and taking things personally?  What anti soccer girl rhetoric have I posted? Sharing is caring, so please share the information that you are withholding because I just don’t get it.  I’m all ears Suzy!


----------



## MacDre

warrior49 said:


> Same guy who thinks Neil is a good coach


I think a hard part of being a coach at Neils level is that he has to tell players you suck, and kick rocks.

I have not given my opinion on Neil as a coach.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> You’re hella funny Suzy.  Suzy you don’t know me or who I know.  Why are you all into your feelings and taking things personally?  What anti soccer girl rhetoric have I posted? Sharing is caring, so please share the information that you are withholding because I just don’t get it.  I’m all ears Suzy!


Mac....with all due respect, I think it’s in your messaging.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but the point you are trying to make is that by a certain age (15), there are fundamental physical and emotional attributes that the “elite” possess.  Things that don’t really develop, like instincts, drive, etc.  If that’s you’re point, I agree on the majority, but there will always be outliers those that beat the odds).  

But to say they don’t “develop”, after a young age like 15, in a blanket way is a tough perspective to understand.


----------



## EOTL

suzysoccer1 said:


> Yeah I figured this would be your response. Uneducated, personal attacks, merit less and void of anything to offer anybody of substance on here. You offer nothing to this forum. Your a waste of everyone’s time. You would of been laughed of this forum 5-7 years ago. You post nothing but anti soccer girl rhetoric. You think your some kind of in the know soccer dad. You don’t know shit. I’ve been kicking your ass all day on this forum, and your reply was about happy pills! That’s it. So why don’t you go take some pills to grow a bigger dick and balls. Merry Christmas


I think you called him stupid right off the bat, so maybe getting upset that he went personal in response isn’t the best argument. I also think you’re overstating your performance here today. If you want to see a master class in over-the-top condescending winning, please refer back to my definitive works on knee injury avoidance, the inevitable demise of GDA, and my explanation why no one would ever learn about Cromwell’s “knowledge” in the Singer scandal. Spoiler alert, it is not due to a conspiracy among the UCLA chancellor, the LA Times, the US Attorney’s office and Grandma Annenberg. (Yes, @Desert Hound, I was wrong that ECNL would not play in AZ in 2020 but you must admit I was pretty darn close and, given where we are in this pandemic, even the city of Phoenix realizes it was a mistake.)

You have presented one way of looking at things, and one which is often accurate.  But elite sports is not all rainbows and butterflies either, and the lack of information about the other side of the story makes it inappropriate to pass judgment, especially when even the allegations by the former disgruntled students are as thin as they are, and the way they describe some of the incidents doesn’t seem particularly credible, while others seem very petty in support of an article that claims “abuse”.


----------



## TOSDCI

MacDre said:


> 24 ladies over a 10 year period, is less than 3 per year, which doesn’t seem that bad to me.
> 
> Context is important and I think it important to acknowledge that we are talking about Cal and not Stanford.  They hold your hand at Stanford but it’s sink or swim at Cal.
> 
> Freshman classes at Cal oftentimes are auditoriums and students never meet their rockstar professor.  The grading curve at Cal also creates a competitive as opposed to the collaborative learning environment at Stanford.
> 
> So if the professors at Cal are not accessible and the grading curve washes folks out academically, why is a culture that is appropriate in an academic context inappropriate in a sports context?  Neil is a D1 coach of young ladies not a babysitter.
> 
> Can’t blame Neil because these young ladies are struggling with the maturation process of being independent and responsible.  Why aren’t they showing up prepared for their commitment?  Would you expect a professor to tolerate players missing assignments and showing up to class unprepared?


I wouldn't expect a professor to degrade and belittle any student.  In my experience, college professors could care less if you are unprepared or if you even show up for class.  If you don't do the work, you fail out, end of story. Have you ever heard of professor tell a student they were a waste of a scholarship?


----------



## MacDre

TOSDCI said:


> Have you ever heard of professor tell a student they were a waste of a scholarship?


No.  But why is it a problem for a P5 D1 coach to tell a player they’re a waste of a scholarship  because they suck?  Wouldn’t a good teammate just “take one for the team” and quit because they suck?


----------



## suzysoccer1

EOTL said:


> I think you called him stupid right off the bat, so maybe getting upset that he went personal in response isn’t the best argument. I also think you’re overstating your performance here today. If you want to see a master class in over-the-top condescending winning, please refer back to my definitive works on knee injury avoidance, the inevitable demise of GDA, and my explanation why no one would ever learn about Cromwell’s “knowledge” in the Singer scandal. Spoiler alert, it is not due to a conspiracy among the UCLA chancellor, the LA Times, the US Attorney’s office and Grandma Annenberg. (Yes, @Desert Hound, I was wrong that ECNL would not play in AZ in 2020 but you must admit I was pretty darn close and, given where we are in this pandemic, even the city of Phoenix realizes it was a mistake.)
> 
> You have presented one way of looking at things, and one which is often accurate.  But elite sports is not all rainbows and butterflies either, and the lack of information about the other side of the story makes it inappropriate to pass judgment, especially when even the allegations by the former disgruntled students are as thin as they are, and the way they describe some of the incidents doesn’t seem particularly credible, while others seem very petty in support of an article that claims “abuse”.


Was not taking about previous post at all regarding cal. Was limiting this to his stating “girls don’t develop past age 15 in soccer”.  And holy hell I’m 
Overstating this issue. Your constant posting never ends. It’s like you have a conversation with yourself most of the time. It’s the forum this is what’s it’s for. Spare me your thoughts or response for one day maybe.


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> No.  But why is it a problem for a P5 D1 coach to tell a player they’re a waste of a scholarship  because they suck?  Wouldn’t a good teammate just “take one for the team” and quit because they suck?


Maybe you lacked an example of good leadership and good teammates in your life to be asking those questions? Good leaders build you up and value the roles of everyone on the team, no matter how small. Good teammates don’t quit on you - they keep giving their all to improve.  
I’ll respond to your questions as hypotheticals. The only people really in a place to judge Cal are those that have played there and my DD’s have not. I’ve not heard complaints from the players we know that are there now. 
First, it’s a problem because that player was recruited by said coach. Why doesn’t coach yell at himself that he sucks for shitty recruiting or coaching? Leaders take responsibility. In fact one of the complaint letters was written by a player who started all 4 years, so that can’t be the core issue. Second, it’s a problem because fear based leadership results in inferior performance, as evidenced widely in both business and sports. Provide the player some objective criteria and results and be a resource for that player about how to improve. You can be clear and direct without being insulting. Coach and teacher are special professions and if you aren’t in them to care for and make all your kids better people, you don’t deserve the privilege. Third, it’s a problem because it goes against the intent of the 4 year scholarship guarantee that the power 5 schools entered into voluntarily.


----------



## Sandypk

MacDre said:


> No.  But why is it a problem for a P5 D1 coach to tell a player they’re a waste of a scholarship  because they suck?  Wouldn’t a good teammate just “take one for the team” and quit because they suck?


Maybe Neil needs to be a better recruiter if he is signing girls who “suck”.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

With little experience I could recruit a great class at Cal.  I don’t think that’s a hard accomplishment by any stretch.  Putting it all together is what gives coaches tenure.

Jerry at Santa Clara
Cromwell at UCF and UCLA
Tim Ward Pepperdine

Hey what can Cal do to get Ward to come?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

IMO Neil is an average coach that’s a dick to put it mildly.


----------



## EOTL

suzysoccer1 said:


> Was not taking about previous post at all regarding cal. Was limiting this to his stating “girls don’t develop past age 15 in soccer”.  And holy hell I’m
> Overstating this issue. Your constant posting never ends. It’s like you have a conversation with yourself most of the time. It’s the forum this is what’s it’s for. Spare me your thoughts or response for one day maybe.


You’re really angry about something that innocuous.      I’m a little scared of you to be honest. Your f bomb rant over USSF ending DA was epic.  If you’d just listened to me, though, you would have known that it was coming and was also for the best.


----------



## LASTMAN14

eastbaysoccer said:


> With little experience I could recruit a great class at Cal.  I don’t think that’s a hard accomplishment by any stretch.  Putting it all together is what gives coaches tenure.
> 
> Jerry at Santa Clara
> Cromwell at UCF and UCLA
> Tim Ward Pepperdine
> 
> Hey what can Cal do to get Ward to come?


Beach front property.


----------



## crush




----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> Maybe you lacked an example of good leadership and good teammates in your life to be asking those questions? Good leaders build you up and value the roles of everyone on the team, no matter how small. Good teammates don’t quit on you - they keep giving their all to improve.
> I’ll respond to your questions as hypotheticals. The only people really in a place to judge Cal are those that have played there and my DD’s have not. I’ve not heard complaints from the players we know that are there now.
> First, it’s a problem because that player was recruited by said coach. Why doesn’t coach yell at himself that he sucks for shitty recruiting or coaching? Leaders take responsibility. In fact one of the complaint letters was written by a player who started all 4 years, so that can’t be the core issue. Second, it’s a problem because fear based leadership results in inferior performance, as evidenced widely in both business and sports. Provide the player some objective criteria and results and be a resource for that player about how to improve. You can be clear and direct without being insulting. Coach and teacher are special professions and if you aren’t in them to care for and make all your kids better people, you don’t deserve the privilege. Third, it’s a problem because it goes against the intent of the 4 year scholarship guarantee that the power 5 schools entered into voluntarily.


Thanks for your response.  I had good coaches and teammates.  I just think your analysis is one sided and lacking because you are only looking at this issue from the perspective of disgruntled players.  You have not considered Neil’s position.  You have not considered the University’s position.  You have not questioned why Alex Morgan, Abigail Kim, Luka Deza and others that are in the National Team pool and playing in the NWSL have not come out in solidarity against Neil.  You have not questioned your kids friends at Cal silence on the issue.  If these allegations are true, the above players are just as guilty as Neil and should be held accountable.  

The fact remains currently there is an average of less than 3 complaints per year over the past 10 years.  With an average roster of 35 players it seems more than reasonable to me to only have to tell less than 3 folks per year, you suck and kick rocks; recruiting isn’t an exact science but based on the above numbers I am relatively certain that you can’t substantiate your claim of bad recruiting at this juncture.

I think you make a valid point regarding players keeping there scholarship all 4 years, which leads me to my next point.  Is it Neil or the system?  Even if Neil is replaced, the new coach will be faced with finding creative solutions to problems inherent to the process. Someone mentioned that UCLA has 40 players on their roster, do you seriously think the coach is trying to make all 40 better or maybe just focusing on the chosen ones?


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> Thanks for your response.  I had good coaches and teammates.  I just think your analysis is one sided and lacking because you are only looking at this issue from the perspective of disgruntled players.  You have not considered Neil’s position.  You have not considered the University’s position.  You have not questioned why Alex Morgan, Abigail Kim, Luka Deza and others that are in the National Team pool and playing in the NWSL have not come out in solidarity against Neil.  You have not questioned your kids friends at Cal silence on the issue.  If these allegations are true, the above players are just as guilty as Neil and should be held accountable.
> 
> The fact remains currently there is an average of less than 3 complaints per year over the past 10 years.  With an average roster of 35 players it seems more than reasonable to me to only have to tell less than 3 folks per year, you suck and kick rocks; recruiting isn’t an exact science but based on the above numbers I am relatively certain that you can’t substantiate your claim of bad recruiting at this juncture.
> 
> I think you make a valid point regarding players keeping there scholarship all 4 years, which leads me to my next point.  Is it Neil or the system?  Even if Neil is replaced, the new coach will be faced with finding creative solutions to problems inherent to the process. Someone mentioned that UCLA has 40 players on their roster, do you seriously think the coach is trying to make all 40 better or maybe just focusing on the chosen ones?


SMH. You didn’t comprehend most of what I said, and you don’t know what you don’t know. Lol. Merry Christmas!


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> and you don’t know what you don’t know.


Bingo, and that is precisely why I have not taken a position on this issue because I feel the evidence is grossly inadequate at this point.  Why do you think the aforementioned players are not coming out in solidarity against Neil?


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> Bingo, and that is precisely why I have not taken a position on this issue because I feel the evidence is grossly inadequate at this point.  Why do you think the aforementioned players are not coming out in solidarity against Neil?


I told you clearly I was answering your question as a hypothetical and was not making a judgement about Cal. 
Also, you did take a position, and as usual, you’re all over the place.


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> Bingo, and that is precisely why I have not taken a position on this issue because I feel the evidence is grossly inadequate at this point.  Why do you think the aforementioned players are not coming out in solidarity against Neil?


Turn that around, Mac.  Why have they not come in to publicly support him?  Not one former player has gone on record to support while at least 1 pro (anonymous) and 1 all-American (w/her name) have signed on as two of the more than 2 dozen athletes who have come forward. This may all be much ado about nothing or a series of misunderstandings or just disgruntled players - we just don’t know.  I, for one, don’t consider silence by anyone to carry any meaning. Whether supportive of coach or players, speaking out publicly can be difficult.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> Turn that around, Mac.  Why have they not come in to publicly support him?  Not one former player has gone on record to support while at least 1 pro (anonymous) and 1 all-American (w/her name) have signed on as two of the more than 2 dozen athletes who have come forward. This may all be much ado about nothing or a series of misunderstandings or just disgruntled players - we just don’t know.  I, for one, don’t consider silence by anyone to carry any meaning. Whether supportive of coach or players, speaking out publicly can be difficult.


I agree 100%.  I care and I am actually asking tough questions to gather evidence to present to folks in my circle to help assist in anyway I can.  I also understand that it will take courage on behalf of the players to come forward and some may be black balled for doing so.  But folks need to realize that it is also wrong to ruin Neil’s career with primarily speculation and conjecture.  The man has a family and I believe a player in college currently.  Has anyone considered how Neil getting fired for a misunderstanding could adversely impact his family?


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> Also, you did take a position, and as usual, you’re all over the place.


I have consistently maintained that I do not yet have enough information to make a decision.  In fact, up thread when @happy9 accused me of defending Neil, I responded that “I am not defending, I am investigating.”  Why do you have a problem with me taking the position that I need more facts and investigating?


----------



## TOSDCI

MacDre said:


> I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz.  I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels.  Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz.  Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer.  I don’t know that I’d call that development though.


Julie Ertz went to Santa Clara not Stanford.


----------



## dk_b

TOSDCI said:


> Julie Ertz went to Santa Clara not Stanford.


I'm guessing it is a reference to where Zach Ertz was in school.


----------



## MrCruett

Sandypk said:


> Maybe Neil needs to be a better recruiter if he is signing girls who “suck”.


Maybe the campus culture is at the root of the problem. We are talking about Berkeley.


----------



## MrCruett

dk_b said:


> Whether supportive of coach or players, speaking out publicly can be difficult.


#YouToo?


----------



## dk_b

MrCruett said:


> #YouToo?


Huh? It’s not easy for many people to voice opinions that may be controversial when the attribution is clear. It happens in the workplace, in many marriages, in schools.  You disagree with that?


----------



## MrCruett

dk_b said:


> Huh? It’s not easy for many people to voice opinions that may be controversial when the attribution is clear. It happens in the workplace, in many marriages, in schools.  You disagree with that?


I'm supportive. #metoo and the stupid cancel culture makes speaking out far more confrontational than it used to be and actually does far more harm than the dialog. It's bs.


----------



## EOTL

MrCruett said:


> I'm supportive. #metoo and the stupid cancel culture makes speaking out far more confrontational than it used to be and actually does far more harm than the dialog. It's bs.


#MeToo has done a great deal to deter sexually harassing behavior everywhere, even if there are unfortunate byproducts, including people swallowing whole false or misleading claims on occasion.  

Also, there is no such thing as “cancel culture”.  That’s just the snowflake term people use when they don’t like the First Amendment being used against them, or to be held accountable for their abhorrent actions.


----------



## MrCruett

EOTL said:


> #MeToo has done a great deal to deter sexually harassing behavior everywhere, even if there are unfortunate byproducts, including people swallowing whole false or misleading claims on occasion.
> 
> Also, there is no such thing as “cancel culture”.  That’s just the snowflake term people use when they don’t like the First Amendment being used against them, or to be held accountable for their abhorrent actions.


In it's original form it was a very effective way to unite. But it now means nothing bc it's been  trivialize and weaponized. 

For instance if I said, "Hey @EOTL, I wish you would eat shit."

@EOTL would say..."#metoo".


----------



## dk_b

MrCruett said:


> I'm supportive. #metoo and the stupid cancel culture makes speaking out far more confrontational than it used to be and actually does far more harm than the dialog. It's bs.


It was not easier to speak out in the past - it has always been difficult and maybe it seems confrontational because, despite still being difficult, more people do speak out these days and when they speak out, a two-sided confrontation often ensues (as opposed to the unilateral bullying or abuse that was all too common for generations)


----------



## soccer4us

dk_b said:


> Turn that around, Mac.  Why have they not come in to publicly support him?  Not one former player has gone on record to support while at least 1 pro (anonymous) and 1 all-American (w/her name) have signed on as two of the more than 2 dozen athletes who have come forward. This may all be much ado about nothing or a series of misunderstandings or just disgruntled players - we just don’t know.  I, for one, don’t consider silence by anyone to carry any meaning. Whether supportive of coach or players, speaking out publicly can be difficult.


In todays culture of how dare a woman not support another woman in this type of situation is why...not as easy as you think


----------



## dk_b

soccer4us said:


> In todays culture of how dare a woman not support another woman in this type of situation is why...not as easy as you think


did I say it was easy? I said that whichever way one would speak out on this topic would not be easy. Taking a public position on a controversial topic is hard for many - maybe most - people who can’t hide behind the cloak of internet anonymity.  It’s never been easy and given human nature, it never will be.


----------



## crush

dk_b said:


> did I say it was easy? I said that whichever way one would speak out on this topic would not be easy. Taking a public position on a controversial topic is hard for many - maybe most - people who can’t hide behind the cloak of internet anonymity.  It’s never been easy and given human nature, it never will be.


Either way, it's hard DK. Should I say something and speak up?  If I do, they will attack me and make up stuff and say I'm crazy and on meds.  If you say nothing, you live with what you know all by yourself.  If you speak up, will you still have friends or will they all bail on you?


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Either way, it's hard DK. Should I say something and speak up?  If I do, they will attack me and make up stuff and say I'm crazy and on meds.  If you say nothing, you live with what you know all by yourself.  If you speak up, will you still have friends or will they all bail on you?


I have asked every starting striker at Cal for the past 7 years about Neil ( all of African descent) and the environment at Cal.  If the allegations are true, they all looked me in the face and told a bald faced lie.  I need to hear from Alex Morgan and those strikers because if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.  If the environment is that bad, why is it okay for grown ass women to intentionally mislead little kids and their parents a Cal camps; I think there should be consequences and repercussions for this type of behavior.   To me this shows a lack of character and a person that’s willing to do or say anything to get theirs-selfish.

I would also be interested in hearing from a young lady that graduated last year, started, and has a weight problem.  Again, if these allegations are true, she blew the most smoke up my ass.  My wife was curious as to how this player was successful at Cal due to her physical appearance.  I inquired about her experience with Neil and she told me that all is great at Cal and that she was not entering the draft but was going to try playing in Europe after graduation.


----------



## MSK357

MacDre said:


> I have asked every starting striker at Cal for the past 7 years about Neil ( all of African descent) and the environment at Cal.  If the allegations are true, they all looked me in the face and told a bald faced lie.  I need to hear from Alex Morgan and those strikers because if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.  If the environment is that bad, why is it okay for grown ass women to intentionally mislead little kids and their parents a Cal camps; I think there should be consequences and repercussions for this type of behavior.   To me this shows a lack of character and a person that’s willing to do or say anything to get theirs-selfish.
> 
> I would also be interested in hearing from a young lady that graduated last year, started, and has a weight problem.  Again, if these allegations are true, she blew the most smoke up my ass.  My wife was curious as to how this player was successful at Cal due to her physical appearance.  I inquired about her experience with Neil and she told me that all is great at Cal and that she was not entering the draft but was going to try playing in Europe after graduation.


I think someone posted this earlier. It has Alex Morgans comments about Neil.






						McGuire's About-Face Casts Questions Over Oregon Trip - The Daily Californian
					






					archive.dailycal.org


----------



## soccer4us

MSK357 said:


> I think someone posted this earlier. It has Alex Morgans comments about Neil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McGuire's About-Face Casts Questions Over Oregon Trip - The Daily Californian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.dailycal.org


Yep. That was a bad episode and decision by Neil regardless of what exactly occurred. You don't leave your team rules it's personal family issues or something similar.


----------



## MacDre

MSK357 said:


> I think someone posted this earlier. It has Alex Morgans comments about Neil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McGuire's About-Face Casts Questions Over Oregon Trip - The Daily Californian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.dailycal.org


Interesting.  I’m stuck on stupid and need a minute to process this.


----------



## EOTL

MSK357 said:


> I think someone posted this earlier. It has Alex Morgans comments about Neil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McGuire's About-Face Casts Questions Over Oregon Trip - The Daily Californian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.dailycal.org


You might want to use something more recent than a comment right after the incident in which she was justifiably angry.









						How Alex Morgan's College Soccer Coach Helped Her Train to Be a Superstar
					

Alex Morgan, star forward for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer team, believes many players fall into the trap of practicing in unrealistic situations.




					www.stack.com


----------



## soccer4us

wa


EOTL said:


> You might want to use something more recent than a comment right after the incident in which she was justifiably angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Alex Morgan's College Soccer Coach Helped Her Train to Be a Superstar
> 
> 
> Alex Morgan, star forward for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer team, believes many players fall into the trap of practicing in unrealistic situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stack.com


wait wait...no one publicly is allowed to say something positive. Don't ruin the news trend! jk


----------



## MacDre

EOTL said:


> You might want to use something more recent than a comment right after the incident in which she was justifiably angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Alex Morgan's College Soccer Coach Helped Her Train to Be a Superstar
> 
> 
> Alex Morgan, star forward for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer team, believes many players fall into the trap of practicing in unrealistic situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stack.com


This article is compelling and consistent with my interactions with Neil and Austin.  Both have worked with my kid on her finishing and confidence.

When my kid was 10 she attended a Cal camp.  Neil put my kid with in the little kid group in the morning but I think he saw something in her.

After the lunch break as my kid was walking on the field, Austin was setting up and blasting this Drake song:





My nerdy introverted 10 year old with coke bottle glasses walks by Austin and just started busting moves.  I’m thinking WTF, she’s never displayed this type of confidence before.  Neil and Austin huddled for about 3 minutes and then looked at my 10 year old and said what are you doing over there with the little kids, get over there with the big girls.  I was scared and didn’t think she was ready.  My kid went over to the big girl group and dominated.  Kinda strange because she performed much better with bigger girls than she did with the little girls.  I guess, I was holding my baby girl back and Neil and Austin help me realize this.

Usually during camps, they’ll use my kid to demonstrate proper technique and confidence on the ball.  My kids confidence has markedly improved because of her interactions with Neil and Austin and I am thankful.


__
		http://instagr.am/p/BlOvyKMlD12/


----------



## MSK357

MacDre said:


> This article is compelling and consistent with my interactions with Neil and Austin.  Both have worked with my kid on her finishing and confidence.
> 
> When my kid was 10 she attended a Cal camp.  Neil put my kid with in the little kid group in the morning but I think he saw something in her.
> 
> After the lunch break as my kid was walking on the field, Austin was setting up and blasting this Drake song:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My nerdy introverted 10 year old with coke bottle glasses walks by Austin and just started busting moves.  I’m thinking WTF, she’s never displayed this type of confidence before.  Neil and Austin huddled for about 3 minutes and then looked at my 10 year old and said what are you doing over there with the little kids, get over there with the big girls.  I was scared and didn’t think she was ready.  My kid went over to the big girl group and dominated.  Kinda strange because she performed much better with bigger girls than she did with the little girls.  I guess, I was holding my baby girl back and Neil and Austin help me realize this.
> 
> Usually during camps, they’ll use my kid to demonstrate proper technique and confidence on the ball.  My kids confidence has markedly improved because of her interactions with Neil and Austin and I am thankful.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BlOvyKMlD12/


My kids still have years before they would even get looked at so at this point I dont really have any opinion on Neil.  But I would say a younger Alex when on twitter is a lot more honest then an older public figure Alex in an interview.  I have no doubt he can develop great soccer players.  But the extreme emotions that students now claim seem to be evident even back when Alex was there.  Maybe the truth is in the middle.


----------



## MacDre

MSK357 said:


> But the extreme emotions that students now claim seem to be evident even back when Alex was there.  Maybe the truth is in the middle.


Maybe it’s because he’s passionate.  I’d rather have a yelling coach that talks big shit and cares about me than a nice coach that uses nice words, doesn’t yell but also doesn’t care.

My kid has also done the FSU camp.  FSU’s coach seems like a nice guy that doesn’t yell.  But his use of technology to monitor players 24/7 is scary to me.


----------



## UOP

Has Alex Morgan commented on this?


----------



## MSK357

MacDre said:


> Maybe it’s because he’s passionate.  I’d rather have a yelling coach that talks big shit and cares about me than a nice coach that uses nice words, doesn’t yell but also doesn’t care.
> 
> My kid has also done the FSU camp.  FSU’s coach seems like a nice guy that doesn’t yell.  But his use of technology to monitor players 24/7 is scary to me.


yelling is fine, but quitting and coming back shows some emotional instability to me. Something even Alex Morgan was bothered with at the time.  Like i said though, im so far removed that i do not care at this point in time.  Just wanted to reference some past comments that seem to validate the coaches emotional instability.


----------



## UOP

America at Large: David Villa and Neil McGuire complaints need attention
					

Progress for women in sport remains one step forward and two steps back




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## UOP

I would be shocked if Neil is back.


----------



## UOP

Cal Bears' Head Coach Neil McGuire Throws His Cubs to the Wolves
					

OK, OK, so maybe they weren't wolves. Still, the Santa Clara Broncos can aptly be described as carnivores on the terrain of women's soccer...




					bleacherreport.com


----------



## UOP

MacDre said:


> Maybe it’s because he’s passionate.  I’d rather have a yelling coach that talks big shit and cares about me than a nice coach that uses nice words, doesn’t yell but also doesn’t care.
> 
> My kid has also done the FSU camp.  FSU’s coach seems like a nice guy that doesn’t yell.  But his use of technology to monitor players 24/7 is scary to me.


You are monitored everyday on social media and from you iPhone everyday.  I want a coach that that my daughter can respect on and off the field.


----------



## crush

We all need some Mulligans.  You notice I didnt say only one?  Were all different and some screw up more than others.  I was the first one on here to admit that I was a coach and I yelled to get my point across.  I played point guard and yelled at my slow centers all the time....lol.  I gave up coaching early in my life and then i was blessed with a dd unlike any other ((at least that's what I think)).  Anyway, a lot of people were yelling at her, including me when she was becoming a young teenager.  One day after I yelled at her, she asked me with such confidence, "dad, why do you have to yell at me? Can't you just teach me without yelling?"  It hit me hard.  So I stopped.  It has done wonders for our relationship.  I dont yell anymore either.  Stress can cause one to yell so they can win in life or soccer.  We all need a second chance.


----------



## MrCruett

EOTL said:


> You might want to use something more recent than a comment right after the incident in which she was justifiably angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Alex Morgan's College Soccer Coach Helped Her Train to Be a Superstar
> 
> 
> Alex Morgan, star forward for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer team, believes many players fall into the trap of practicing in unrealistic situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stack.com


Thanks. Try f'ing yourself first.  Then let's talk about your suggestions.


----------



## MacDre

UOP said:


> America at Large: David Villa and Neil McGuire complaints need attention
> 
> 
> Progress for women in sport remains one step forward and two steps back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com


Do I know you?  Wow.  If Neil and Villa are guilty that will mean every organization under the US Soccer umbrella that my kid has interacted with has been caught up in a major scandal recently.  This problem may be bigger than the allegations against Neil.
The owner of DV7 Chula Vista’s son is a 2007 and my kid has played lots of pick up with that group.  They sent my kid to Spain for trials.  

Albion & Lamorinda predator coaches scandals too.


----------



## EOTL

MrCruett said:


> Thanks. Try f'ing yourself first.  Then let's talk about your suggestions.


Wow. Someone didn’t like to hear a point of view that doesn’t fit his narrative, even when it comes directly out of the great Alex Morgan’s mouth.


----------



## MacDre

UOP said:


> You are monitored everyday on social media and from you iPhone everyday.  I want a coach that that my daughter can respect on and off the field.


The kids have to wear a fitbit type device.  The coach will know if they have sex, when they go to sleep, when they wake up etc.  So, it’s much more intrusive than the monitoring that you referenced.
Folks that kids can admire have a wide array of leadership styles and emotionally volatile folks are part of our world.  We are talking about a coach, Neil is not a diplomat or running for some political office.  No time like college for players to get out of their bubbles and learn how to deal with different leadership styles.  
I am not concerned about my daughter being abused, manipulated, or mistreated by some introverted nice guy nerd.  However, I often have nightmares of a slick talking charismatic asshole abusing my daughter because she’s book smart but not very street smart.  Neil comes off as charismatic and street smart and he’s the type of dude that I want my daughter to be very well adept to interacting with.  So to each their own, I guess it depends on your goals.


----------



## Kicker4Life

EOTL said:


> Wow. Someone didn’t like to hear a point of view that doesn’t fit his narrative....


Pot meet kettle....


----------



## EOTL

Kicker4Life said:


> Pot meet kettle....


Are you talking to Alex Morgan?


----------



## crush

BTW, this is good that were getting this all out in the open.  I'm for making improvements in the game for girls.  Its start with us you guys.  Man in the mirror?  Talk is cheap....


----------



## Kicker4Life

EOTL said:


> Are you talking to Alex Morgan?


Just funny hearing that quote from someone like you........


----------



## soccer4us

If Cal hasn't been investigating this whole situation for nearly 2 years already, I would agree NM is probably done. Since they have, have fully backed him the whole time because they haven't found concrete evidence certain were broken, I bet he coaches next season. I can see them not renewing a contract when thats time comes but for now I'd be surprised if fired. You can argue the news reports brought more to the situation but they know ALL of this since nothing is news to the admin department. I know most people in 2020 want say the make coach is guilty and he's done when ever a handful say he did this emotionally to us etc. I have no dog in the fight so it doesn't matter to me but I know people who do ad this is the common thought...for the time being,


----------



## MacDre

soccer4us said:


> If Cal hasn't been investigating this whole situation for nearly 2 years already, I would agree NM is probably done. Since they have, have fully backed him the whole time because they haven't found concrete evidence certain were broken, I bet he coaches next season. I can see them not renewing a contract when thats time comes but for now I'd be surprised if fired. You can argue the news reports brought more to the situation but they know ALL of this since nothing is news to the admin department. I know most people in 2020 want say the make coach is guilty and he's done when ever a handful say he did this emotionally to us etc. I have no dog in the fight so it doesn't matter to me but I know people who do ad this is the common thought...for the time being,


I think this could be a hasty conclusion.  An alternative view could be that Neil has developed the highest paid female player in the world and Abi Kim was a regular starter for the US U20 team.  Maybe she has a chance of eventually making the USWNT.  He also recently recruited the top class in the country and regularly graduates his players.  Have you ever heard that any press is good press?  Folks don’t throw shade and hate on losers.  If folks are throwing shade, Neil must be important and “doing his thing.”  

He may get a raise.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> He may get a raise.


 If the University made money on “developed players”...I would agree.  

But programs/Coaches are judged in expectations of the program. If Cal’s expectation is just to have high level recruits and not win the PAC 12 or the NCAA Tournament, then I’d say he’s secure.  Otherwise, he could be looking for a new job.


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> If the University made money on “developed players”...I would agree.
> 
> But programs/Coaches are judged in expectations of the program. If Cal’s expectation is just to have high level recruits and not win the PAC 12 or the NCAA Tournament, then I’d say he’s secure.  Otherwise, he could be looking for a new job.


I would argue that producing “hall of fame” type players consistently is better than winning amateur tournaments.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> I would argue that producing “hall of fame” type players consistently is better than winning amateur tournaments.


That’s definitely a POV and you’ll get no argument from me on that point.  But you nor I are the ones making that determination.  If the University is happy underperforming with HoF type talent that’s their prerogative.


----------



## MacDre

Not underperforming, developing the chosen few.  You’ll lose games if the focus is on development as opposed to winning the big amateur trophy.

I‘ll take it a step further, Alex Morgan consistently makes Cal look good and garners interest in the program.  I can only remember 1 player on FSU’s recent championship team. Universities get more bang for their buck with HoF type players.


----------



## full90

MacDre said:


> I have asked every starting striker at Cal for the past 7 years about Neil ( all of African descent) and the environment at Cal.  If the allegations are true, they all looked me in the face and told a bald faced lie.  I need to hear from Alex Morgan and those strikers because if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.  If the environment is that bad, why is it okay for grown ass women to intentionally mislead little kids and their parents a Cal camps; I think there should be consequences and repercussions for this type of behavior.   To me this shows a lack of character and a person that’s willing to do or say anything to get theirs-selfish.
> 
> I would also be interested in hearing from a young lady that graduated last year, started, and has a weight problem.  Again, if these allegations are true, she blew the most smoke up my ass.  My wife was curious as to how this player was successful at Cal due to her physical appearance.  I inquired about her experience with Neil and she told me that all is great at Cal and that she was not entering the draft but was going to try playing in Europe after graduation.


I played college sports and my coach was awful and if I and my teammates were working a camp at our school and a parent of a camper asked about our experience or our coach we would 100% lie every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You think scholarship players will tell some dad the dirt? No freaking way. We’d sell our coach and program like it’s the greatest ever.
To this day as an old fart I won’t throw my coach or school out to dry in front of a random. To everyone except my friends would I tell the truth to. It’s family. You don’t bag on family to strangers.
On occasion we’d tell recruits. If we knew them from high school or were homies. But the fear of that getting back to our coaches was way more motivating than any altruistic notion of being honest to a recruit. And NEVER to a dad at camp. Come on.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> I played college sports and my coach was awful and if I and my teammates were working a camp at our school and a parent of a camper asked about our experience or our coach we would 100% lie every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You think scholarship players will tell some dad the dirt? No freaking way. We’d sell our coach and program like it’s the greatest ever.
> To this day as an old fart I won’t throw my coach or school out to dry in front of a random. To everyone except my friends would I tell the truth to. It’s family. You don’t bag on family to strangers.
> On occasion we’d tell recruits. If we knew them from high school or were homies. But the fear of that getting back to our coaches was way more motivating than any altruistic notion of being honest to a recruit. And NEVER to a dad at camp. Come on.


Wow.  I’m speechless.  Thanks for sharing.


----------



## MrCruett

EOTL said:


> Wow. Someone didn’t like to hear a point of view that doesn’t fit his narrative, even when it comes directly out of the great Alex Morgan’s mouth.


You got it all wrong again. It's just you I don't like.


----------



## UOP

MrCruett said:


> Thanks. Try f'ing yourself first.  Then let's talk about your suggestions.


It’s a patern of behavior that’s culminated to Present day.


----------



## UOP

soccer4us said:


> If Cal hasn't been investigating this whole situation for nearly 2 years already, I would agree NM is probably done. Since they have, have fully backed him the whole time because they haven't found concrete evidence certain were broken, I bet he coaches next season. I can see them not renewing a contract when thats time comes but for now I'd be surprised if fired. You can argue the news reports brought more to the situation but they know ALL of this since nothing is news to the admin department. I know most people in 2020 want say the make coach is guilty and he's done when ever a handful say he did this emotionally to us etc. I have no dog in the fight so it doesn't matter to me but I know people who do ad this is the common thought...for the time being,


i
I agree w you.  they will not renew him.  That’s the way to go to avoid more litigation.


----------



## MacDre

UOP said:


> i
> I agree w you.  they will not renew him.  That’s the way to go to avoid more litigation.


I think at this point no claims have been substantiated.  If folks keep pushing the issue by wasting scarce judicial resources, the attorneys may face sanctions and the moving party could be on the hook for attorneys fees.

You gotta bring ass, if you want to get ass.


----------



## Keepermom2

soccer4us said:


> If Cal hasn't been investigating this whole situation for nearly 2 years already, I would agree NM is probably done. Since they have, have fully backed him the whole time because they haven't found concrete evidence certain were broken, I bet he coaches next season. I can see them not renewing a contract when thats time comes but for now I'd be surprised if fired. You can argue the news reports brought more to the situation but they know ALL of this since nothing is news to the admin department. I know most people in 2020 want say the make coach is guilty and he's done when ever a handful say he did this emotionally to us etc. I have no dog in the fight so it doesn't matter to me but I know people who do ad this is the common thought...for the time being,


Of course universities never ignore complaints and always investigate them...."Michigan State ignored reports of sexual abuse by Larry Nassar for almost 20 years."


----------



## Keepermom2

You have greater than 20 women come forward (a couple who walked away from scholarships because of the toxic environment) to say something or corroborate the abuse from the past and present, most of which have nothing to gain from coming forward and more to lose hearing people like many of you diminish their argument to whether a coach should yell at players or not like that was the players' point.  Ignorance!!!!!!!!  Many of you also have the audacity to diminish what they had to say with sexist comments that I am pretty certain you are completely unaware are sexist.  How many women coming forward does it take to be believed?   You just have to read this thread to understand why a young women would not come forward to say anything.


----------



## dad4

Keepermom2 said:


> You have greater than 20 women come forward (a couple who walked away from scholarships because of the toxic environment) to say something or corroborate the abuse from the past and present, most of which have nothing to gain from coming forward and more to lose hearing people like many of you diminish their argument to whether a coach should yell at players or not like that was the players' point.  Ignorance!!!!!!!!  Many of you also have the audacity to diminish what they had to say with sexist comments that I am pretty certain you are completely unaware are sexist.  How many women coming forward does it take to be believed?   You just have to read this thread to understand why a young women would not come forward to say anything.


Sexist?  Perhaps, but not in the way you said.

One big reason this story gets traction is because it is a women's program.  At a men's program, almost everyone here would be dismissing the athletes and telling them to "man up".  Not saying it's right, but it is what they'd say.

It's going to be at least two decades before we are willing to get rid of abusive garbage on the men's side.


----------



## Keepermom2

dad4 said:


> Sexist?  Perhaps, but not in the way you said.
> 
> One big reason this story gets traction is because it is a women's program.  At a men's program, almost everyone here would be dismissing the athletes and telling them to "man up".  Not saying it's right, but it is what they'd say.
> 
> It's going to be at least two decades before we are willing to get rid of abusive garbage on the men's side.


I did not specify which comments were sexist so how do you know?


----------



## MacDre

Keepermom2 said:


> You have greater than 20 women come forward (a couple who walked away from scholarships because of the toxic environment) to say something or corroborate the abuse from the past and present, most of which have nothing to gain from coming forward and more to lose hearing people like many of you diminish their argument to whether a coach should yell at players or not like that was the players' point.  Ignorance!!!!!!!!  Many of you also have the audacity to diminish what they had to say with sexist comments that I am pretty certain you are completely unaware are sexist.  How many women coming forward does it take to be believed?   You just have to read this thread to understand why a young women would not come forward to say anything.


I believe all of the girls.  However, Neil has had approximately 350 players in his program over the past ten years.  If only 24 players thinks he’s an asshole, I’d say give the guy a raise!

Serious question, if you’d interacted with 350 players, how many would think you are a jackass?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> I believe all of the girls.  However, Neil has had approximately 350 players in his program over the past ten years.  If only 24 players thinks he’s an asshole, I’d say give the guy a raise!
> 
> Serious question, if you’d interacted with 350 players, how many would think you are a jackass?


Cal does not have to give a reason as to why they will not renew his contract.


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> Cal does not have to give a reason as to why they will not renew his contract.


Why would Cal want to fire a guy that only struck out 24 times out of 350 times at bat?

@dad4 what’s Neil’s batting average?


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> Why would Cal want to fire a guy that only struck out 24 times out of 350 times at bat?
> 
> @dad4 what’s Neil’s batting average?


more like 140 players. The roster does not fully turn over every year. Assuming 35 (which is too large) in year 1 and a 9 player frosh class thereafter, it’s about 140. Likely fewer though as most frosh classes are not as many as 9.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> more like 140 players. The roster does not fully turn over every year. Assuming 35 (which is too large) in year 1 and a 9 player frosh class thereafter, it’s about 140. Likely fewer though as most frosh classes are not as many as 9.


Okay, I stand corrected.  If Neil only struck out 24 times out of 140 times at bat, that makes his batting average .829 if my math is correct.  That’s world class, hall of fame material.  Now I’m thinking he should get a parking spot and a raise.


----------



## Giesbock

Batting average analogy can’t be applied here.  That’s like saying a guy dated 140 girls and only smacked around 24 of them.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Why would Cal want to fire a guy that only struck out 24 times out of 350 times at bat?
> 
> @dad4 what’s Neil’s batting average?


Would you apply for a job if you knew that 17% of former employees claimed a hostile work environment?

I’d have to be pretty hard up for work before I accepted such an offer.

All depends on what you compare it to, doesn’t it?


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> Okay, I stand corrected.  If Neil only struck out 24 times out of 140 times at bat, that makes his batting average .829 if my math is correct.  That’s world class, hall of fame material.  Now I’m thinking he should get a parking spot and a raise.


How does the University capitalize on producing great players without producing above average results?


----------



## MacDre

Giesbock said:


> Batting average analogy can’t be applied here.  That’s like saying a guy dated 140 girls and only smacked around 24 of them.


No allegations of physical or sexual abuse have been made.  He’s basically been very mean and talked shit to 24 people that rubbed him the wrong way.  In life there a personality conflicts and disagreements.  Look at the high divorce rate for example.

I would also be curious to know why didn’t some or all of these players transfer to another program.  Wouldn’t most programs want a quality transfer from Cal?  So many unanswered questions.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Would you apply for a job if you knew that 17% of former employees claimed a hostile work environment?
> 
> I’d have to be pretty hard up for work before I accepted such an offer.
> 
> All depends on what you compare it to, doesn’t it?


Former Biglaw associates and professional athletes would think those numbers look promising.  With Biglaw, I’d say the number would be more than 90%.


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> How does the University capitalize on producing great players without producing above average results?


You’re thinking small homie.  I bet no one in Italy, Spain, or Germany knows or cares who won the female college championship.  But I bet they all know Alex Morgan .  Neil is focused on developing BOSS’


----------



## Keepermom2

MacDre said:


> No allegations of physical or sexual abuse have been made.  He’s basically been very mean and talked shit to 24 people that rubbed him the wrong way.  In life there a personality conflicts and disagreements.  Look at the high divorce rate for example.
> 
> I would also be curious to know why didn’t some or all of these players transfer to another program.  Wouldn’t most programs want a quality transfer from Cal?  So many unanswered questions.


17% only relates to the number of people that came forward.  Obviously the number is higher.

"Verbal and emotional abuse is much more common in athletics. It can lead to severe and long-lasting effects on the athlete’s social and emotional development. In a world where “more is better” in terms of training and “no pain means no gain,” there is a great deal of machismo in coaches. Most coaches coach the same way that they were coached while playing the sport growing up. *This means that many coaches are still operating as if the training methods used in the Soviet Union in the 1970s are state of the art. “Ve vill deprive you of food until you win gold medal.” Central to this old school mindset is the idea that threat, intimidation, fear, guilt, shame, and name-calling are all viable ways to push athletes to exce*l. News flash: None of these is a worthwhile motivator for anyone. These are the bricks which line the road paved to burnout, rebellion and hatred of a once-loved sport."









						The Consequences of Verbally Abusive Athletic Coaches
					

My 10-year-old son was bullied recently. He was told that he was an “embarrassment.” He was told to “shu




					psychcentral.com


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> You’re thinking small homie.  I bet no one in Italy, Spain, or Germany knows or cares who won the female college championship.  But I bet they all know Alex Morgan .  Neil is focused on developing BOSS’


Ok for the boss.  But why would anyone else go there?  

I am betting his recruiting pitch doesn't say "you'll be a training cone while I focus all my energy on the 1 or 2 players who might make WNT".


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> You’re thinking small homie.  I bet no one in Italy, Spain, or Germany knows or cares who won the female college championship.  But I bet they all know Alex Morgan .  Neil is focused on developing BOSS’


That’s not what’s at question here.  The question is whether or not Niels boss gauges the benefit of employing him by the players he develops or the Trophies he’s put in the case. 

You and I can pontificate all we want, but the AD has the juice and is the ultimate decision maker.


----------



## MacDre

Keepermom2 said:


> 17% only relates to the number of people that came forward.  Obviously the number is higher.
> 
> "Verbal and emotional abuse is much more common in athletics. It can lead to severe and long-lasting effects on the athlete’s social and emotional development. In a world where “more is better” in terms of training and “no pain means no gain,” there is a great deal of machismo in coaches. Most coaches coach the same way that they were coached while playing the sport growing up. *This means that many coaches are still operating as if the training methods used in the Soviet Union in the 1970s are state of the art. “Ve vill deprive you of food until you win gold medal.” Central to this old school mindset is the idea that threat, intimidation, fear, guilt, shame, and name-calling are all viable ways to push athletes to exce*l. News flash: None of these is a worthwhile motivator for anyone. These are the bricks which line the road paved to burnout, rebellion and hatred of a once-loved sport."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Consequences of Verbally Abusive Athletic Coaches
> 
> 
> My 10-year-old son was bullied recently. He was told that he was an “embarrassment.” He was told to “shu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> psychcentral.com


I agree.  


dad4 said:


> Ok for the boss.  But why would anyone else go there?
> 
> I am betting his recruiting pitch doesn't say "you'll be a training cone while I focus all my energy on the 1 or 2 players who might make WNT".


Typical sink or swim Cal environment.  If you can swim like a fish, it’s all good and if you can’t BYE FELICIA!


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> You’re thinking small homie.  I bet no one in Italy, Spain, or Germany knows or cares who won the female college championship.  But I bet they all know Alex Morgan .  Neil is focused on developing BOSS’


How can he develop bosses when college players can’t be developed if they are older than 15?

His job to is win the P12 and College Cups, graduate players, teach the game and build strong young women. With his recruiting classes he should be crushing it and he’s middle of the pack at best.


----------



## crush




----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> How can he develop bosses when college players can’t be developed if they are older than 15?
> 
> His job to is win the P12 and College Cups, graduate players, teach the game and build strong young women. With his recruiting classes he should be crushing it and he’s middle of the pack at best.


Excuse me, I have used the word develop loosely.  I will clean it up.  To help illustrate my point I will not refer to Neil by his government name.  Instead, I will use his nickname...The Jeweler.  I think the problem is that you see dude as a youth coach when he’s actually a fine jeweler.

I mentioned upthread that college should she be viewed as a finishing school and not a place for development like youth soccer.  Therefore, The Jewelers job is to identify diamonds in the ruff, polish them with real world experience and a Cal sink or swim mentality (like Alex Morgan said in the article EOTL posted upthread) and get those precious jewels to market so that they can move towards the hall of fame.  Cal will let Stanford continue winning amateur trophies and providing excellent supporting players for their goats.

Another aspect of The Jewelers job is to identify the cubic zirconia and fools gold; remove and discard.

His job is to polish diamonds.  No one cares about the amateur trophy but parents.  If it don’t make dollars, then it don’t make sense.  Polishing diamonds makes the most dollars and sense.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Excuse me, I have used the word develop loosely.  I will clean it up.  To help illustrate my point I will not refer to Neil by his government name.  Instead, I will use his nickname...The Jeweler.  I think the problem is that you see dude as a youth coach when he’s actually a fine jeweler.
> 
> I mentioned upthread that college should she be viewed as a finishing school and not a place for development like youth soccer.  Therefore, The Jewelers job is to identify diamonds in the ruff, polish them with real world experience and a Cal sink or swim mentality (like Alex Morgan said in the article EOTL posted upthread) and get those precious jewels to market so that they can move towards the hall of fame.  Cal will let Stanford continue winning amateur trophies and providing excellent supporting players for their goats.
> 
> Another aspect of The Jewelers job is to identify the cubic zirconia and fools gold; remove and discard.
> 
> His job is to polish diamonds.  No one cares about the amateur trophy but parents.  If it don’t make dollars, then it don’t make sense.  Polishing diamonds makes the most dollars and sense.


I like this kind of and I see where your going.  I would just suggest that when any coach finds cubic zirconia and fools gold ((dad worked at the club or donated big bucks and dd played every game....lol)) that he or she handle with care and not throw on the ground and then yell and scream at it as if the fools gold thought it was fools gold.  Some coaches take it a step further and get a hammer and smash the fools gold to pieces.  I have a another suggestion.  Since all these top programs have like 40 players, why not have an A team and B team.  Two games.  JV and then Varsity.  That way everyone has a chance to actually play a game.  If a player is not in shape or doing well, you send her to the B team and bring over someone from the B team that is developing and is ready for the call up?  And this awesome idea:  Sell 10 spots for $100,000 each.  Now you got $$$$ for the girls program and not in some middleman's pants.....lol


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> You might want to use something more recent than a comment right after the incident in which she was justifiably angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Alex Morgan's College Soccer Coach Helped Her Train to Be a Superstar
> 
> 
> Alex Morgan, star forward for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer team, believes many players fall into the trap of practicing in unrealistic situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stack.com


How about waiting 30-years, Ms. Blasey Ford?


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> No allegations of physical or sexual abuse have been made.  He’s basically been very mean and talked shit to 24 people that rubbed him the wrong way.  In life there a personality conflicts and disagreements.  Look at the high divorce rate for example.
> 
> I would also be curious to know why didn’t some or all of these players transfer to another program.  Wouldn’t most programs want a quality transfer from Cal?  So many unanswered questions.


Transfer to where... a "better" school?


----------



## crush

I was talking to my soon to be 17 year old after her run this morning about college thoughts today vs when she was in 7th grade.  It's amazing how different her thoughts are about playing soccer in college.  I asked what is the biggest difference in your thoughts today then four years ago.  She said 100% wherever she ends up going to school, it has to be a place where she loves, just in case the coach thinks he got fools gold.  Sometimes you can;t change someone perceptions or some folks have zero tolerance and if you break a rule, your toast.  I now firmly believe you should pick a school where you want to go to school first and then play soccer.  It's hard for someone who chases medals and Cups.  I hope she can find both in her recruiting journey that has taken on a life of it's own.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> Transfer to where... a "better" school?


If she got into Cal, she should be able to get into most other places especially with the coaches support.  Maybe, Ivies, USC, Georgetown, UVA etc.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> If she got into Cal, she should be able to get into most other places especially with the coaches support.  Maybe, Ivies, USC, Georgetown, UVA etc.


Perhaps, but that sounds to me like making the victim leave so we no longer have a problem.  And what is the coach supposed to do in lending support, MD?  "Uh, yeah, I've got a malcontent you need to take a look at"?


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> Perhaps, but that sounds to me like making the victim leave so we no longer have a problem.  And what is the coach supposed to do in lending support, MD?  "Uh, yeah, I've got a malcontent you need to take a look at"?


Nope.  Bay Area folks have a get in where you fit in mentality.  Bosses have options and one ho-bitch doesn’t stop the show.

I’ll give you a short list of athletes that usually  slide through to see me on the holidays from different sports that would have no problem transferring programs without a coaches support:
Casey Strand (wrestler), Eddie House (basketball), Marshawn Lynch (aka Beastmode), Jerod Cherry (football), Hannibal Navies (football), Na’il Benjamin (football), CC Sabaithia (baseball) and last but not least my bestie J’Juan Cherry.

J’Juan was kicked out of Colorado because folks thought I took the SAT for his dumb ass and he landed at Arizona State.  When he got to Arizona and invited me down we literally partied for 2 years straight.  Lot’s of social equity between Casey, Eddie, and J’Juan.  Despite all of this, ESPN had my boy ranked as a top player coming into the upcoming season.  But the problem was that he hadn’t been to class because we were partying and chasing skirts and he flunked out of school.  No biggie, Parcel’s and the Patriots picked him up in the supplemental draft because he was a BOSS.  Players do what they want and haters do what the can.  I understand.


----------



## TOSDCI

MacDre said:


> I believe all of the girls.  However, Neil has had approximately 350 players in his program over the past ten years.  If only 24 players thinks he’s an asshole, I’d say give the guy a raise!
> 
> Serious question, if you’d interacted with 350 players, how many would think you are a jackass?


It may also be that only 24 have come forward but there are others that choose not to.  Isn't there a possibility that others who played for him and thought his behavior was abusive decided not to go public because they are adults with jobs and just wanted to move past it.  I'm not saying whether he was or wasn't a jerk, I'm just proposing that the argument of only "24 out of 350" is not really valid.


----------



## MacDre

TOSDCI said:


> It may also be that only 24 have come forward but there are others that choose not to.  Isn't there a possibility that others who played for him and thought his behavior was abusive decided not to go public because they are adults with jobs and just wanted to move past it.  I'm not saying whether he was or wasn't a jerk, I'm just proposing that the argument of only "24 out of 350" is not really valid.


I can only analyze the evidence put in front of me.  I don’t want to speculate. 

I am saying that I think he was a jerk and the girls are telling the truth.  However, sometimes people don’t like each other and say or do mean things.  If The Jeweler is batting .829 and there’s no allegations of physical or sexual abuse, I’m okay with him telling a few players BYE FELICIA!


----------



## MacDre

I forgot to mention that The Jeweler has a theme song that plays whenever he enters a room.  Strange.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> I can only analyze the evidence put in front of me.  I don’t want to speculate.
> 
> I am saying that I think he was a jerk and the girls are telling the truth.  However, sometimes people don’t like each other and say or do mean things.  If The Jeweler is batting .829 and there’s no allegations of physical or sexual abuse, I’m okay with him telling a few players BYE FELICIA!


EVIDENCE
1)  complaints and articles written about him have accumulated over his tenure and an explosive story with over 24 girls coming forward.  Extremely bad press during the #metoo movement at a very liberal university
2) subpar results in the NCAA tournament compared with counterparts in the PAC-12 whose employers are also top 25 academic univ.

number two alone should get the man fired.  add #1 and he should most definitely be fired.


----------



## MacDre

eastbaysoccer said:


> EVIDENCE
> 1)  complaints and articles written about him have accumulated over his tenure and an explosive story with over 24 girls coming forward.  Extremely bad press during the #metoo movement at a very liberal university
> 2) subpar results in the NCAA tournament compared with counterparts in the PAC-12 whose employers are also top 25 academic univ.
> 
> number two alone should get the man fired.  add #1 and he should most definitely be fired.


Maybe.  I am just trying to highlight that there are alternative ways of looking at the facts.  Your conclusions as to what the evidence is while plausible is not dispositive on the issue.

I often recommend that folks run away from licensed professionals that state things with absolute certainty like you do.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Nope.  Bay Area folks have a get in where you fit in mentality.  Bosses have options and one ho-bitch doesn’t stop the show.
> 
> I’ll give you a short list of athletes that usually  slide through to see me on the holidays from different sports that would have no problem transferring programs without a coaches support:
> Casey Strand (wrestler), Eddie House (basketball), Marshawn Lynch (aka Beastmode), Jerod Cherry (football), Hannibal Navies (football), Na’il Benjamin (football), CC Sabaithia (baseball) and last but not least my bestie J’Juan Cherry.
> 
> J’Juan was kicked out of Colorado because folks thought I took the SAT for his dumb ass and he landed at Arizona State.  When he got to Arizona and invited me down we literally partied for 2 years straight.  Lot’s of social equity between Casey, Eddie, and J’Juan.  Despite all of this, ESPN had my boy ranked as a top player coming into the upcoming season.  But the problem was that he hadn’t been to class because we were partying and chasing skirts and he flunked out of school.  No biggie, Parcel’s and the Patriots picked him up in the supplemental draft because he was a BOSS.  Players do what they want and haters do what the can.  I understand.


Does 24 ho-bitches stop the show?  Seems to me you mentioned a lot of professional athletes.  Been a while since C.C. was 18-years old.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> Does 24 ho-bitches stop the show?  Seems to me you mentioned a lot of professional athletes.  Been a while since C.C. was 18-years old.


You said it, I didn’t.  I wasn’t referring to the young ladies as ho-bitches.  But I am relatively certain the 24 players that have come forward have valid reasons for for thinking The Jeweler is a ho-bitch.

I mentioned these professionals specifically because they’re my peer group and frame of reference.  I don’t think the age of the players that I mentioned matters.  Players change not the game. The game remains the same.

I just realized that I didn’t include any soccer players so let’s throw in both Beasly brothers while I was in New England and Edgar Castillo and everyone at Club Tijuana to makes things interesting.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> You said it, I didn’t.  I wasn’t referring to the young ladies as ho-bitches.  But I am relatively certain the 24 players that have come forward have valid reasons for for thinking The Jeweler is a ho-bitch.
> 
> I mentioned these professionals specifically because they’re my peer group and frame of reference.  I don’t think the age of the players that I mentioned matters.  Players change not the game. The game remains the same.
> 
> I just realized that I didn’t include any soccer players so let’s throw in both Beasly brothers while I was in New England and Edgar Castillo and everyone at Club Tijuana to makes things interesting.


You didn't?  I quoted you directly!  You mentioned a bunch of men.  Entirely different world they live in.


----------



## crush

We all need to relax and have fun.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> You didn't?  I quoted you directly!  You mentioned a bunch of men.  Entirely different world they live in.


You’re taking my words out of context.  The proper context and the way that I presented it was that if a player is a Boss, she could tell The Jeweler to fuck off ho-bitch and exercise her other options.

Since none of you’s can’t articulate why these players didn’t exercise other options, I think it can be deduced that most other top coaches considered these players HELLA BOOTSY and wouldn’t give them the time of day.  The Jeweler being the kind and caring gentleman that he is gave these players a chance to prove themselves at their “dream school.”  When these players didn’t measure up and were told to kick rocks, they got mad and stabbed The Jeweler in the back.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> You’re taking my words out of context.  The proper context and the way that I presented it was that if a player is a Boss, she could tell The Jeweler to fuck off ho-bitch and exercise her other options.
> 
> Since none of you’s can’t articulate why these players didn’t exercise other options, I think it can be deduced that most other top coaches considered these players HELLA BOOTSY and wouldn’t give them the time of day.  The Jeweler being the kind and caring gentleman that he is gave these players a chance to prove themselves at their “dream school.”  When these players didn’t measure up and were told to kick rocks, they got mad and stabbed The Jeweler in the back.


I'm learning a lot about the jeweler story.  My buddy from Yellow Pages was Armenian.  He hooked me up with a jeweler downtown LA that had some diamonds.  A deal of a life time


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> You mentioned a bunch of men.  Entirely different world they live in.


Seriously?  How?  Sounds like you are holding the ladies back by promoting low standards.  I want to see the women’s leagues prosper but we need to silence the FUCKERY of which you speak so the games will be entertaining and folks will come to games and watch on TV.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Seriously?  How?  Sounds like you are holding the ladies back by promoting low standards.  I want to see the women’s leagues prosper but we need to silence the FUCKERY of which you speak so the games will be entertaining and folks will come to games and watch on TV.


Promoting low standards?  


MacDre said:


> You’re taking my words out of context.  The proper context and the way that I presented it was that if a player is a Boss, she could tell The Jeweler to fuck off ho-bitch and exercise her other options.
> 
> Since none of you’s can’t articulate why these players didn’t exercise other options, I think it can be deduced that most other top coaches considered these players HELLA BOOTSY and wouldn’t give them the time of day.  The Jeweler being the kind and caring gentleman that he is gave these players a chance to prove themselves at their “dream school.”  When these players didn’t measure up and were told to kick rocks, they got mad and stabbed The Jeweler in the back.


How do you take written words out of context?


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Seriously?  How?  Sounds like you are holding the ladies back by promoting low standards.  I want to see the women’s leagues prosper but we need to silence the FUCKERY of which you speak so the games will be entertaining and folks will come to games and watch on TV.


So verbal, mental and emotional abuse is low standard now?  I want to see a women's league prosper, too.  You and I both have daughters.  And if both of us sent them to Cal, we'd expect the coaching staff to be firm but supportive.  Don't blather to me about how C.C. Sabathia could transfer over a bad coach when the fool never went to college.

The jeweler gets his ass handed to him, every year, by the jeweler down the freeway and they compete for the same players.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> So verbal, mental and emotional abuse is low standard now?  I want to see a women's league prosper, too.  You and I both have daughters.  And if both of us sent them to Cal, we'd expect the coaching staff to be firm but supportive.  Don't blather to me about how C.C. Sabathia could transfer over a bad coach when the fool never went to college.
> 
> The jeweler gets his ass handed to him, every year, by the jeweler down the freeway and they compete for the same players.


I’m not sure there was any abuse.  I’m not sure talking cash shit is abuse.  Also, if these ladies were abused you’d think there’d be some type of damages.  It appears all continued to excel in school and eventually graduated while suffering alleged emotional abuse.  Strange.

Many moons ago I recall reading the Jones v. Clinton case.  I recall the court reasoning that she couldn’t claim abuse if she kept coming to work and not exercising her other options.  I think the court also looked at how she continued to come to work and perform.  I think the rationale in the above case is applicable here. Even if we assume The Jeweler is abusive, the players have suffered absolutely no damages.

I am sympathetic to the ladies position.  My post are essentially a free focus group to help the ladies develop their case because they ain’t even close.

You got me on the CC comment lol.

Now, that dude up the street is not a Jeweler.  He’s a Keebler elf that lives and stores amateur trophies in a tree.  As far a competing for players, it’s unfair because judging by the comments on this board many want to be in an artificial bubble where they hold one’s hand and coddles students.  Cal promotes street smarts in addition to book smarts and it’s okay that the environment at Cal is not for everybody.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> I’m not sure there was any abuse.  I’m not sure talking cash shit is abuse.  Also, if these ladies were abused you’d think there’d be some type of damages.  It appears all continued to excel in school and eventually graduated while suffering alleged emotional abuse.  Strange.
> 
> Many moons ago I recall reading the Jones v. Clinton case.  I recall the court reasoning that she couldn’t claim abuse if she kept coming to work and not exercising her other options.  I think the court also looked at how she continued to come to work and perform.  I think the rationale in the above case is applicable here. Even if we assume The Jeweler is abusive, the players have suffered absolutely no damages.
> 
> I am sympathetic to the ladies position.  My post are essentially a free focus group to help the ladies develop their case because they ain’t even close.
> 
> You got me on the CC comment lol.
> 
> Now, that dude up the street is not a Jeweler.  He’s a Keebler elf that lives and stores amateur trophies in a tree.  As far a competing for players, it’s unfair because judging by the comments on this board many want to be in an artificial bubble where they hold one’s hand and coddles students.  Cal promotes street smarts in addition to book smarts and it’s okay that the environment at Cal is not for everybody.


I'm not sure he did it, either, but I don't imagine it's completely unfounded.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> I'm not sure he did it, either, but I don't imagine it's completely unfounded.


Agreed.  I just think the ladies have to be careful with how they proceed.  At this point, The Jeweler could be considering a counter claim for defamation.  If the ladies have evidence, they should proceed otherwise it’s time to drop it and move on.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> Maybe.  I am just trying to highlight that there are alternative ways of looking at the facts.  Your conclusions as to what the evidence is while plausible is not dispositive on the issue.
> 
> I often recommend that folks run away from licensed professionals that state things with absolute certainty like you do.


There's always two sides to the story, YES.   What I've have ALWAYS said is CAL should move on to a new coach if moving past the first round is something that is important to them.  

Also have ANY former players come forward to support Neil and say what a positive influence he has been during their time at CAL?  At this point the negatives out weigh the positives and you don't have to be a Stanford Law grad to figure that out.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MAC n


MacDre said:


> Agreed.  I just think the ladies have to be careful with how they proceed.  At this point, The Jeweler could be considering a counter claim for defamation.  If the ladies have evidence, they should proceed otherwise it’s time to drop it and move on.


The evidence is " he said, she said".  it's 24 to 1, unless there are alumni telling a different story.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

I  think  the play right now is to release him at the end of his contract.  There doesn't need to be a reason except Cal wants to move in another direction.  When does his contract expire?


----------



## GT45

At some point the PR for Cal comes into play. What does the President or Chancellor think of this issue in the media. This decision could go way above the AD. I suspect he is on a 1 year contract at this point, since his last multi year extension was publicized on Cal's website. It ended January 2020. Since no announcement of an extension, and the fact that he was in the middle of a lawsuit at the time his contract expired, I think it is safe to say they have him on a one year contract. I agree with eastbay that he likely goes when this annual contract ends. Is that January or June in the Cal system?


----------



## GT45

Neil McGuire Signs Contract Extension - California Golden Bears Athletics
					

Head Coach Signed On Through January 2020




					calbears.com
				




signed a contract extension to remain the Golden Bears' head coach through January 2020.


----------



## Soccer43

Besides this issue why is there no news coverage about the State Auditor's report that was completed in 2020 about the inappropriate admissions process?  Interesting reading.....


The University of California Qualified Students Face an Inconsistent and Unfair Admissions System That Has Been Improperly Influenced by Relationships and Monetary Donations September 2020


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> *His job to is* win the P12 and College Cups, graduate players, *teach the game and build strong young women. *


I forgot to address this aspect of your comment.  I think it’s crazy to send game goofy girls raised in a bubble off to college in hopes that a coach will teach them the game.

Do you know how easy it is for a life coach (aka pimp) to covince these young ladies that their dad and school is lame?  They will tell her “let your next move be your best move” let’s go to the City or Vegas where she can make 20k per day and bring it ALL back to daddy.

Game is to be sold not told, so I’ll say less. But, I’ll let my little patna finish my public service announcement. I promise this dude is NOT a rapper. I recommend listening to this song several times before sending DD off to college.


----------



## MacDre

GT45 said:


> Neil McGuire Signs Contract Extension - California Golden Bears Athletics
> 
> 
> Head Coach Signed On Through January 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calbears.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> signed a contract extension to remain the Golden Bears' head coach through January 2020.


It’s December 2020 and Jeweler is still around.  Maybe he’s negotiating the details of his raise and dedicated parking space.


----------



## MacDre

Soccer43 said:


> Besides this issue why is there no news coverage about the State Auditor's report that was completed in 2020 about the inappropriate admissions process?  Interesting reading.....
> 
> 
> The University of California Qualified Students Face an Inconsistent and Unfair Admissions System That Has Been Improperly Influenced by Relationships and Monetary Donations September 2020


Based on my personal experience with Cal, I think they have cleaned everything up.  I have never made calls for my kid and the only way the Jeweler could know of her network would be by reading this thread.  My kid is actually more qualified than I had thought.  Thanks for posting.


----------



## crush




----------



## MacDre

Here’s a clear example of what happens to a coach when they go bad on a BOSS.  They get fired for Christmas.



			Redirect Notice


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Based on my personal experience with Cal, I think they have cleaned everything up.  I have never made calls for my kid and the only way the Jeweler could know of her network would be by reading this thread.  My kid is actually more qualified than I had thought.  Thanks for posting.


I thought your kid was working on an early IGETC for transferring.  If she’s handling college level STEM courses already, she is qualified however you look at it.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> I thought your kid was working on an early IGETC for transferring.  If she’s handling college level STEM courses already, she is qualified however you look at it.


Bingo.  As a 12 year old she got A’s in Physics and Trig this semester and her Geometry class this past summer at ATDP.  I just don’t want folks throwing shade because she’s a Fam 1st Foundation kid in attempts to minimize her hard work.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> I forgot to address this aspect of your comment.  I think it’s crazy to send game goofy girls raised in a bubble off to college in hopes that a coach will teach them the game.
> 
> Do you know how easy it is for a life coach (aka pimp) to covince these young ladies that their dad and school is lame?  They will tell her “let your next move be your best move” let’s go to the City or Vegas where she can make 20k per day and bring it ALL back to daddy.
> 
> Game is to be sold not told, so I’ll say less. But, I’ll let my little patna finish my public service announcement. I promise this dude is NOT a rapper. I recommend listening to this song several times before sending DD off to college.


Growth mindset, you can always learn and develop. I will be guiding my daughter to a program that teaches cause they exist and are the good ones.  You need to read Tony D’s book also if you think the Jeweler is a good coach. Also riddle me this Batman, why can’t he get out of the first round?






						Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls: Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles: 9780142003350: Amazon.com: Books
					

Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls [Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Copa9

Keepermom2 said:


> Of course universities never ignore complaints and always investigate them...."Michigan State ignored reports of sexual abuse by Larry Nassar for almost 20 years."


No comparison. 


dad4 said:


> Would you apply for a job if you knew that 17% of former employees claimed a hostile work environment?
> 
> I’d have to be pretty hard up for work before I accepted such an offer.
> 
> All depends on what you compare it to, doesn’t it?


What's the pay? So 83% of former employees didn't claim a hostile work environment?


----------



## Copa9

sdb said:


> Growth mindset, you can always learn and develop. I will be guiding my daughter to a program that teaches cause they exist and are the good ones.  You need to read Tony D’s book also if you think the Jeweler is a good coach. Also riddle me this Batman, why can’t he get out of the first round?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls: Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles: 9780142003350: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls [Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


Uh, because they are the best teams in the country! With over three hundred D1 programs, to  make it to the tournament is still pretty amazing.


----------



## GT45

Cal should always make it to the tournament. Anything short of that should get a coach fired (injuries being the only acceptable excuse). Cal recruits itself. It is one of the top schools in the country. Same goes for Stanford, UCLA, and USC. Those 4 should be automatics in the NCAA tourney every single season.


----------



## Copa9

Keepermom2 said:


> 17% only relates to the number of people that came forward.  Obviously the number is higher.
> 
> "Verbal and emotional abuse is much more common in athletics. It can lead to severe and long-lasting effects on the athlete’s social and emotional development. In a world where “more is better” in terms of training and “no pain means no gain,” there is a great deal of machismo in coaches. Most coaches coach the same way that they were coached while playing the sport growing up. *This means that many coaches are still operating as if the training methods used in the Soviet Union in the 1970s are state of the art. “Ve vill deprive you of food until you win gold medal.” Central to this old school mindset is the idea that threat, intimidation, fear, guilt, shame, and name-calling are all viable ways to push athletes to exce*l. News flash: None of these is a worthwhile motivator for anyone. These are the bricks which line the road paved to burnout, rebellion and hatred of a once-loved sport."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Consequences of Verbally Abusive Athletic Coaches
> 
> 
> My 10-year-old son was bullied recently. He was told that he was an “embarrassment.” He was told to “shu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> psychcentral.com


So true, but lets start with the U little club coaches in southern California.  And yes they are out there. Oh and also the abusive coaches for the olders who belong to a top club in so cal and all the other coaches at other clubs who fall into that category.  Families and players suck it up to be on a top team and be recruited to a top D1 school.  Start there and then maybe they will choose a college with a professional coach. 
'


----------



## Copa9

eastbaysoccer said:


> EVIDENCE
> 1)  complaints and articles written about him have accumulated over his tenure and an explosive story with over 24 girls coming forward.  Extremely bad press during the #metoo movement at a very liberal university
> 2) subpar results in the NCAA tournament compared with counterparts in the PAC-12 whose employers are also top 25 academic univ.
> 
> number two alone should get the man fired.  add #1 and he should most definitely be fired.


How many years has he been at Cal?  How many players have been in the program, total please.  Fourteen, thirteen years? How many players on the team each year? Twenty-five to thirty?  Eight or nine graduating, same coming in each year.  So, roughly 325 players if you go with the low number of 25 and thirteen years. Round down to 300 if you want,  so 24 players say negative things on a spectrum of seriousness 3-8 on a 10 point scale. So interesting. Certainly a lot to consider.


----------



## Copa9

Copa9 said:


> How many years has he been at Cal?  How many players have been in the program, total please.  Fourteen, thirteen years? How many players on the team each year? Twenty-five to thirty?  Eight or nine graduating, same coming in each year.  So, roughly 325 players if you go with the low number of 25 and thirteen years. Round down to 300 opportunities  if you want,  so 24 players say negative things on a spectrum of seriousness 3-8 on a 10 point scale. So interesting. Certainly a lot to consider.


Sorry, I didn't word this correctly. Not different players but the equivalent opportunity each year for abuse, each player has four years for the abuse to happen. Tried to edit but time had elapsed.


----------



## sdb

Copa9 said:


> How many years has he been at Cal?  How many players have been in the program, total please.  Fourteen, thirteen years? How many players on the team each year? Twenty-five to thirty?  Eight or nine graduating, same coming in each year.  So, roughly 325 players if you go with the low number of 25 and thirteen years. Round down to 300 if you want,  so 24 players say negative things on a spectrum of seriousness 3-8 on a 10 point scale. So interesting. Certainly a lot to consider.


your player number calc is way off. It’s start with 30 players, add 5-6 unique players each year. It’s 104-120 players in total.


----------



## dk_b

Copa9 said:


> How many years has he been at Cal?  How many players have been in the program, total please.  Fourteen, thirteen years? How many players on the team each year? Twenty-five to thirty?  Eight or nine graduating, same coming in each year.  So, roughly 325 players if you go with the low number of 25 and thirteen years. Round down to 300 if you want,  so 24 players say negative things on a spectrum of seriousness 3-8 on a 10 point scale. So interesting. Certainly a lot to consider.


it’s about 140 at the high end. If you use 9 players per class x 14 years + the Sophs and older in year 1.


----------



## dk_b

sdb said:


> your player number calc is way off. It’s start with 30 players, add 5-6 unique players each year. It’s 104-120 players in total.


yup. I took 9 per frosh class but 5 or 6 may be closer to average.


----------



## sdb

Copa9 said:


> Uh, because they are the best teams in the country! With over three hundred D1 programs, to  make it to the tournament is still pretty amazing.


That's amazing, being in the approx 20% of D1 programs that make the tourney!


----------



## sdb

dk_b said:


> yup. I took 9 per frosh class but 5 or 6 may be closer to average.


I was going to revise my high end closer to yours in case the classes were bigger. 24 out of 120-140 is a whole lot different than 24 out of 300+


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> Growth mindset, you can always learn and develop. I will be guiding my daughter to a program that teaches cause they exist and are the good ones.  You need to read Tony D’s book also if you think the Jeweler is a good coach. Also riddle me this Batman, why can’t he get out of the first round?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls: Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles: 9780142003350: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls [Dicicco, Tony, Hacker, Colleen, Salzberg, Charles] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Catch Them Being Good: Everything You Need to Know to Successfully Coach Girls
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I don’t know why he can’t get out of the first round and I think it could be a problem for him if this is one of the factors the AD uses to evaluate him.

My kid won’t be playing for the Jeweler.  Franky Oviedo, recently took over as the girls coach at Club Tijuana; his daughter is on the team and Xolo’s are committed to winning a world championship.  I’ve lost track of all of the black players Xolo’s have brought in the last 10 months to work with my kid.  She’ll get to travel with U17’s and the first team.  Hopefully debut with first team by 15.

Your kid is lucky that you are so well informed.


----------



## EOTL

Copa9 said:


> How many years has he been at Cal?  How many players have been in the program, total please.  Fourteen, thirteen years? How many players on the team each year? Twenty-five to thirty?  Eight or nine graduating, same coming in each year.  So, roughly 325 players if you go with the low number of 25 and thirteen years. Round down to 300 if you want,  so 24 players say negative things on a spectrum of seriousness 3-8 on a 10 point scale. So interesting. Certainly a lot to consider.


Really there are only about five who have complained.  A local Fox news tv affiliate “journalist” claims the rest are mystery people alleging mystery things, but we should take the “journalist’s” word for it.  And no, a grown adult claiming she had to run sprints hard once in her life years ago should not be accorded the same anonymity protections that are provided to those alleging actual sex abuse or blowing the whistle on national security issues. There are important reasons to protect the identity of people who were allegedly raped or sexually assaulted, especially if there is a potential impact in their chosen profession. They do not exist here. 

The journalist’s behavior does not even remotely approach appropriate journalistic standards. The unnamed individuals do not merit anonymity, which should be reserved only for issues of critical importance AND when there is no other means of providing the information. Here, that is clearly not the case because about five people did come forward. 

And even assuming for the sake of argument that they did, the anonymous sources should have been used for background only and any discussion of them should have been limited to support facts - not their opinion that they don’t like the Cal coach or even their opinion that he was “abusive”.  If you look at the second article, she does not identify a single person, nor does she identify a single fact. Instead, she mentions only their alleged opinions.  If you know anything about responsible journalism, you should know “Don't let sources offer anonymous opinions of others.” https://www.npr.org/about-npr/688745813/special-section-anonymous-sourcing.  See also https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/reader-center/how-the-times-uses-anonymous-sources.html.  See also https://www.spj.org/ethics-papers-anonymity.asp

It’s a sad state when people are so easily duped by these local Fox affiliate hit pieces. But if we’ve learned anything over the last four years, it is that people are easily manipulated by the Fox way of doing things. If you are one of those who were duped but can’t admit it, please go back to that second article and identify a single alleged act or incident that occurred.


----------



## dad4

Copa9 said:


> So true, but lets start with the U little club coaches in southern California.  And yes they are out there. Oh and also the abusive coaches for the olders who belong to a top club in so cal and all the other coaches at other clubs who fall into that category.  Families and players suck it up to be on a top team and be recruited to a top D1 school.  Start there and then maybe they will choose a college with a professional coach.
> '


If your ulittle kid is so amazing that they _need_ to be on a top team, then every coach in the division already knows your kid.  

Therefore, you don’t need to suffer a bad coach.  Pick a good coach.  That team will win and other kids will follow.  

If your kid isn’t so amazing that all the coaches already know them, then don’t worry about it.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> I don’t know why he can’t get out of the first round and I think it could be a problem for him if this is one of the factors the AD uses to evaluate him.
> 
> My kid won’t be playing for the Jeweler.  Franky Oviedo, recently took over as the girls coach at Club Tijuana; his daughter is on the team and Xolo’s are committed to winning a world championship.  I’ve lost track of all of the black players Xolo’s have brought in the last 10 months to work with my kid.  She’ll get to travel with U17’s and the first team.  Hopefully debut with first team by 15.
> 
> Your kid is lucky that you are so well informed.


From everything you've written your kid is doing great and has a bright future. I'd love to see her play sometime.


----------



## crush

Copa9 said:


> Sorry, I didn't word this correctly. Not different players but the equivalent opportunity each year for abuse, each player has four years for the abuse to happen. Tried to edit but time had elapsed.


Pay the $15 and you can edit all day and night.  Plus, no more ads,  Yay!!  I was told by a sage bro that its ok to get angry, just dont sin and go past 3 out of the, 1-10 anger range.  A-1 is a slight trigger to full blown swat team trying to take you down, that's like a 9-`10 range of anger and abuse person.


----------



## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> Based on my personal experience with Cal, I think they have cleaned everything up.  I have never made calls for my kid and the only way the Jeweler could know of her network would be by reading this thread.  My kid is actually more qualified than I had thought.  Thanks for posting.


The audit report just came out in September.  Public entities don’t move that fast - things have to be submitted to Board of regents,  reviewed at committees, policies established etc.


----------



## crush

*“What One Does With The Truth Is More Difficult Than You Think.”*


----------



## crush

*“I Will Fight For Those Who Cannot Fight For Themselves.”*


----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## crush




----------



## Keepermom2

Copa9 said:


> No comparison.
> 
> What's the pay? So 83% of former employees didn't claim a hostile work environment?


You obviously missed the point....if universities do not appropriately investigate sexual abuse than why would they investigate emotional abuse!  Somebody was stating that universities investigations should be relied upon on as evidence.  Obviously that is not the case.


----------



## EOTL

Keepermom2 said:


> You obviously missed the point....if universities do not appropriately investigate sexual abuse than why would they investigate emotional abuse!  Somebody was stating that universities investigations should be relied upon on as evidence.  Obviously that is not the case.


Huh? What does sexual abuse have to do with this?  Did Cal not properly investigate sexual abuse, or are you just making things up?


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Really there are only about five who have complained.  A local Fox news tv affiliate “journalist” claims the rest are mystery people alleging mystery things, but we should take the “journalist’s” word for it.  And no, a grown adult claiming she had to run sprints hard once in her life years ago should not be accorded the same anonymity protections that are provided to those alleging actual sex abuse or blowing the whistle on national security issues. There are important reasons to protect the identity of people who were allegedly raped or sexually assaulted, especially if there is a potential impact in their chosen profession. They do not exist here.
> 
> The journalist’s behavior does not even remotely approach appropriate journalistic standards. The unnamed individuals do not merit anonymity, which should be reserved only for issues of critical importance AND when there is no other means of providing the information. Here, that is clearly not the case because about five people did come forward.
> 
> And even assuming for the sake of argument that they did, the anonymous sources should have been used for background only and any discussion of them should have been limited to support facts - not their opinion that they don’t like the Cal coach or even their opinion that he was “abusive”.  If you look at the second article, she does not identify a single person, nor does she identify a single fact. Instead, she mentions only their alleged opinions.  If you know anything about responsible journalism, you should know “Don't let sources offer anonymous opinions of others.” https://www.npr.org/about-npr/688745813/special-section-anonymous-sourcing.  See also https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/reader-center/how-the-times-uses-anonymous-sources.html.  See also https://www.spj.org/ethics-papers-anonymity.asp
> 
> It’s a sad state when people are so easily duped by these local Fox affiliate hit pieces. But if we’ve learned anything over the last four years, it is that people are easily manipulated by the Fox way of doing things. If you are one of those who were duped but can’t admit it, please go back to that second article and identify a single alleged act or incident that occurred.


That's funny.  In the heat of the election, you had no journalistic standards.  You're nothing but a hypocrite with no kids playing soccer.


----------



## MacDre

For those that think there’s development in college, can you reconcile your position with that of the D1 player in minute 3:50-5:20 of this video?  Maybe the problem is that folks have unrealistic expectations of what happens in college soccer and not the Jeweler.


----------



## LASTMAN14

crush said:


>


Your an idiot. Stop it. Please.


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> For those that think there’s development in college, can you reconcile your position with that of the D1 player in minute 3:50-5:20 of this video?  Maybe the problem is that folks have unrealistic expectations of what happens in college soccer and not the Jeweler.


Did you play college soccer?


----------



## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> Did you play college soccer?


Nope.  But the guys in the video did.  Do you take issue with what they’re saying?  If so, why?


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> Nope.  But the guys in the video did.  Do you take issue with what they’re saying?  If so, why?


No, I take issue with the fact your kid is not anywhere near college. Didn’t play soccer and pretend to tell us that their is no development in college because you read something or heard it. It’s like saying why go to college if after 15 we don’t learning anything. I listened to the clip and those two are idiots.


----------



## crush

LASTMAN14 said:


> Your an* idiot.* Stop it. Please.


First words spoken in a year and I'm an idiot?  Gee, thanks bro.  Follow along.  Treat the girls with respect is the moral of the story.  That should start when their in the pre-teens and teen years.  Mulligans for all Lastman even all the all the dads and coaches.  We can all do better.  I forgive you for calling me an idiot and what other words go with it ((see below)).  My brain is dictionary and I know the deeper meanings of words.  So hurtful what you can say to another human bro.  Wowza!!! 

id·i·ot
Learn to pronounce

_*noun : Fool, Nincompoop, Dunce, Cretin, Moron, Dope, Chump, Dimwit, Nutwit, Dumbo, Dummy, Dum-Dum, Loon, Jackass, Bonehead, Numbshull, Blockhead, Pinhead, Jerk, Dipstick, Donkey, Twit, Ass, Asshat, Twerp, Schmuck, Bozo, Boob, Turkey, Dumbass, Goofball, Goof, Goofus, Dork, Klutz, Putz, Ding-Dong, Dingbat, Poop, Yo-Yo and Dingleberry *_



​


----------



## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> No, I take issue with the fact your kid is not anywhere near college. Didn’t play soccer and pretend to tell us that their is no development in college because you read something or heard it. It’s like saying why go to college if after 15 we don’t learning anything.


Lot’s of conflicting information out there and I’m looking for clarification.  I am not a soccer dude.  I am on this forum to get information.  Why do you think college is so far away for my kid?
My understanding of college soccer is that it doesn’t resemble the real game because of substitution rules, fast tempo, constant pressing, time cloc, and inconsistency because of players graduating and coming in often.  I have been told college is a horrible environment to learn soccer and is frowned upon on the men’s side. 
But, now I’m hearing that college is a place where one’s talents can be nurtured and developed and I’d like to know more about why you think that and is there anything that you could post that supports that position.


----------



## Keepermom2

EOTL said:


> Huh? What does sexual abuse have to do with this?  Did Cal not properly investigate sexual abuse, or are you just making things up?


*Huh? What does sexual abuse have to do with this? *
Already explained. 

*Did Cal not properly investigate sexual abuse, or are you just making things up?*

This wasn't part of my point but since you asked, the following is from the Office of Civil Rights findings letter for University of California Berkeley dated February 36, 2018.  UC Berkeley seems to struggle with responding appropriately to complaints. 


“OCR’s review included128 casefiles for reports/complaints of sexual harassment and/or sexual violence received from the 2011-12 through the 2013-14 academic years, as well as 71 files from reports/complaints filed in the 2014-15 academic year, and one matter in the 2015-16 academic year that was brought to OCR’s attention. Through this review of files, OCR identified compliance concerns and made noncompliance findings as follows: Overall, OCR identified compliance concerns with respect to equity when the University used an alternative resolution process. *The alternative resolution process resulted in complaints being resolved without the voluntary agreement of, or, in some matters, notice of the outcome being provided to the complainant and/or respondent. In some matters, the alternative resolution process also resulted in complaints being resolved without interviews of the impacted parties or an assessment of whether a sexually hostile environment had been created and/or whether interim measures or other remedies were necessary.”*


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> Lot’s of conflicting information out there and I’m looking for clarification.  I am not a soccer dude.  I am on this forum to get information.  Why do you think college is so far away for my kid?
> My understanding of college soccer is that it doesn’t resemble the real game because of substitution rules, fast tempo, constant pressing, time cloc, and inconsistency because of players graduating and coming in often.  I have been told college is a horrible environment to learn soccer and is frowned upon on the men’s side.
> But, now I’m hearing that college is a place where one’s talents can be nurtured and developed and I’d like to know more about why you think that and is there anything that you could post that supports that position.


I have seen and read your most earliest posts and as I reflect your DD is a 1-2 years younger than my own. Therefore college is still a time away. If your inferring to the real game being the professional or international level, college does not have to if it chooses to not in regards to their rules of the game. In fact there is clamor for the sub rules at the highest levels to change to adapt to the environment.  And at every level the game rises. College is meant to be a level below or a stepping stone for those who can get there. But, this does not mean development does not happen. Tempo is a style of play, as is pressing. In fact pressing/coverage came to the forefront from the Italian professional league in the 70's. It was called Catenaccio. Any situation in life or experience has brought growth. If it has not, then one is ZINKO. Professional teams have a tremendous turnover. Club teams have high turnover. It's a blessing if any team has a long standing period where they can gel as a team. Yes, college can be nurturing but every program is different, and this is no different at the highest levels to professional academies, or to local clubs. But, players do learn, change. mature, etc. Now, if your trying to compare a college development to a professional one. That is a different conversation, but to stay college does not help a grow a player is inaccurate.


----------



## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> College is meant to be a level below or a stepping stone for those who can get there.


I agree but the MLS seems to think there are problems with college soccer.  I think if things are bad on the men’s side, then surely things are worse on the women’s side.  I’m at a loss as to how anyone can possibly suggest that women have a superior environment to men anywhere in our society whether it be soccer, Silicon Valley, or Wall Street because women ALWAYS “get the short end of the stick.”

I think you have to embrace the MLS message if you want to see development in college soccer.  Admitting that there is a problem with the system is the first step to fixing the problem.  









						MLS: College Soccer is in trouble, but NCAA vote can save it
					

In April, the NCAA will vote on expanding the college soccer season. The result will impact the relevancy of college soccer as a pathway to MLS. College so...




					www.google.com


----------



## Soccerfan2

There’s no question that a dedicated professional environment is going to facilitate better soccer development for most players than a college team.

However, the point of college is not soccer, it’s to get an education. If you only care about soccer development, of course, go pro if you’re able. Just go knowing that only 25 women (if that?) in the whole world currently earn salaries in soccer that rival the earning potential of a degree from a top college.

If you want evidence about the quality of the US college soccer system, just look at the number of World Cup players that were current college students. It’s still a destination for most top players including many internationals. As long as the likes of Macario find value in playing for Stanford, I don’t think asking whether players develop in college is a very useful question. The women’s pro game is not mature enough to displace college soccer yet. Will it in the future? Maybe. We’ve been trending in that direction, but how fast and how much remains to be seen. 

I’ve been around long enough that playing pro as a female in my day meant a small stipend and your parents had to foot the bill for your room and board if you wanted to play. I’ve watched women’s pro leagues form and collapse and reform and collapse again, sometimes within the same season. 24 years in, the WNBA average salary is still below that of an experienced elementary teacher where I live and the vast majority of players still don’t go pro until after college ball. It’s an exciting time for the development of women’s soccer, but it’s still a long way from being a viable career for most. Just keep it all in perspective because these precious years with your girl will fly by.


----------



## crush

LASTMAN14 said:


> I have seen and read your most earliest posts and as I reflect your DD is a 1-2 years younger than my own. Therefore college is still a time away. If your inferring to the real game being the professional or international level, college does not have to if it chooses to not in regards to their rules of the game. In fact there is clamor for the sub rules at the highest levels to change to adapt to the environment.  And at every level the game rises. College is meant to be a level below or a stepping stone for those who can get there. But, this does not mean development does not happen. Tempo is a style of play, as is pressing. In fact pressing/coverage came to the forefront from the Italian professional league in the 70's. It was called Catenaccio. Any situation in life or experience has brought growth. If it has not, then one is ZINKO. Professional teams have a tremendous turnover. Club teams have high turnover. It's a blessing if any team has a long standing period where they can gel as a team. Yes, college can be nurturing but every program is different, and this is no different at the highest levels to professional academies, or to local clubs. But, players do learn, change. mature, etc. Now, if your trying to compare a college development to a professional one. That is a different conversation, but to stay college does not help a grow a player is inaccurate.


Dre, Lastman and his side kick monitor the Idiots on here and are here to make sure were silence.  Here's a fact Dre.  My dd is 17 almost.  She has been in youth soccer since she was 6.  She was recruited by all the greats in socal before the job title of Director of Girls Coaching (Girls DOC)) was invented for girls in the failed GDA.  It was also a position top male coaches lobbed for and boy did they.  I was in the middle of two crazy folks fighting for power and a raise. The Doc was the man and he had something people wanted.  Can you guess Dre?  He the Doc took over soccer in socal and got all the power.  Lastman calls me an idiot but I'm the one who came on here saying the GDA ((run by men and dad)) will be toast and it's boat ride to Mr Jones Island with so much Kool Aid you will never be thirsty again in the "Pay me so you can Play League."  It was an easy call.  You cant treat girls like this and be successful.  I would think, "Crush, you nailed it" would be in the works after Lastman ignored me until last nights, "Please stop Idiot, Please stop!!!!" No, all I get is I'm an idiot.  Maybe he will thank me later? For the record, the sh*t my dd went through was evil.  You can;t treat a girl(s) and her dreams like trash all because she was bad for business because she wanted to play public high school soccer.


----------



## crush

Try and follow me on this over the top example of a man/dad coach with young boys playing American Football.  Now imagine the soccer gods telling dum parents that the girls need to be trained and coached by the men in the girls game so the girls can play like the men in the future.  Let's ALL make an effort to make the next group of girls a better experience in youth soccer.  I can handle some name calling from folks on here.  It's been happening my whole life.  8 out of 10 girls bailing on college soccer is not good odds.  Let's make if fun for the girls and not just a full time job with no pay.


----------



## crush




----------



## crush

Last video example of the day:  This is for parents with players under 18.  My dd is 100% adult at 18 and she has to deal with everything in life on her own.  If she calls me for help, I 100% will drop everything and fly to her in a heart beat.  I'm a Hawk Dad   I told my kids this all the time when they played teams sports to be a good kid.  I was former coach and I believe players should be respectful and go talk to the coach when issues arise.  At 1:30-1:36 mark of this clip is when it's ok to help your kid out, even if people tell you to STFU and shhhhhhhhhhh or else.


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> However, the point of college is not soccer, it’s to get an education. If you only care about soccer development, of course, go pro if you’re able.


I agree with almost everything you have written, but you argument is separate and distinct from what @LASTMAN14 and @sdb are arguing.

It seems there are some that think D1 college soccer is similar to the 4H club-a place where young folks get mentored, supported, and encouraged to pursue their goals. I disagree.

The last 2 videos that I posted is clear objective proof that college soccer does not make better soccer players. Folks like Macario don’t improve from college soccer. Rather,  she is getting a degree from a great school for financial security. If we believe the numbers posted by MLS, it can be argued college soccer is counterproductive because of the schedule and high risk of injuries.

If we believe the young man in the video about how it is essential to listen to your coach tell you to do “dumb shit”, or you will not play it becomes very easy to understand how the Jeweler is bumping heads with young ladies that have an unrealistic goal of development on a P5 D1 soccer team.


----------



## Soccerfan2

MacDre said:


> I agree with almost everything you have written, but you argument is separate and distinct from what @LASTMAN14 and @sdb are arguing.
> 
> It seems there are some that think D1 college soccer is similar to the 4H club-a place where young folks get mentored, supported, and encouraged to pursue their goals. I disagree.
> 
> The last 2 videos that I posted is clear objective proof that college soccer does not make better soccer players. Folks like Macario don’t improve from college soccer. Rather,  she is getting a degree from a great school for financial security. If we believe the numbers posted by MLS, it can be argued college soccer is counterproductive because of the schedule and high risk of injuries.
> 
> If we believe the young man in the video about how it is essential to listen to your coach tell you to do “dumb shit”, or you will not play it becomes very easy to understand how the Jeweler is bumping heads with young ladies that have an unrealistic goal of development on a P5 D1 soccer team.


Yea, well, Lastman and sdb have been around the game a while, and their opinions have credibility because they reserve speaking for when it’s about what they actually know.


----------



## crush

Soccerfan2 said:


> Yea, well, *Lastman* and sdb have* been around the game a while*, and* their opinions have credibility* because they reserve speaking for when it’s about what they actually know.


Lastman called me an idiot last night dude and the other one to say that to me has been EOTL.  In your honest opinion, is he correct?  I swear I wont get my feelings hurt.  Swing away fellas, I got no where to be or do.


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> Yea, well, Lastman and sdb have been around the game a while, and their opinions have credibility because they reserve speaking for when it’s about what they actually know.


I don’t doubt anyone’s experience and expertise.  However, there are blatant inconsistencies that need to be reconciled.  In my profession, it’s not what you know, but what you can prove that’s important.


----------



## Soccerfan2

crush said:


> Lastman called me an idiot last night dude and the other one to say that to me has been EOTL.  In your honest opinion, is he correct?  I swear I wont get my feelings hurt.  Swing away fellas, I got no where to be or do.


Many people have told you many times that rambling on endlessly about your past, posting on every thread and posting song lyrics, memes and photos is annoying and unwanted. If you don’t want to turn people off, take the social feedback that you receive and put it to use.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I don’t doubt anyone’s experience and expertise.  However, there are blatant inconsistencies that need to be reconciled.  In my profession, it’s not what you know, but what you can prove that’s important.


I want Lastman to prove that I'm the forum idiot.  I think he heard I was some foolish dad from a few of the Docs and some dads who got in on the prize that all the top players in socal were after.  TC is all over for good, right?  That was not a real US Soccer Training Center.  TC actual stands for Toxic *Cult*ure.


----------



## crush

Soccerfan2 said:


> Many people have told you many times that rambling on endlessly about your past, posting on every thread and posting song lyrics, memes and photos is *annoying and unwanted*. If you don’t want to turn people off, take the social feedback that you receive and put it to use.


I can 100% see where I'm annoying and some feel it's unwanted information that they would rather not hear about.  That I can play with.  Calling me an idiot or moron, or fool is what keeps me coming back for more bro.  8 out of 10 quit dude.  What say you about that?


----------



## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> I agree with almost everything you have written, but you argument is separate and distinct from what @LASTMAN14 and @sdb are arguing.
> 
> It seems there are some that think D1 college soccer is similar to the 4H club-a place where young folks get mentored, supported, and encouraged to pursue their goals. I disagree.
> 
> The last 2 videos that I posted is clear objective proof that college soccer does not make better soccer players. Folks like Macario don’t improve from college soccer. Rather,  she is getting a degree from a great school for financial security. If we believe the numbers posted by MLS, it can be argued college soccer is counterproductive because of the schedule and high risk of injuries.
> 
> If we believe the young man in the video about how it is essential to listen to your coach tell you to do “dumb shit”, or you will not play it becomes very easy to understand how the Jeweler is bumping heads with young ladies that have an unrealistic goal of development on a P5 D1 soccer team.


Your ignorance about this subject shows up over and over again when you apply everything related to the men's game to the women's game (even the videos you post are men).  The style of play is different, the futures are different, the motivations of the players are different, the goals and ambitions are different, the college experience and purpose are different.  You have a female athlete so stop looking to the men's game for anything and stop trying to apply it to the women's game.  It doesn't apply.


----------



## Kicker4Life

crush said:


> I want Lastman to prove that I'm the forum idiot.  I think he heard I was some foolish dad from a few of the Docs and some dads who got in on the prize that all the top players in socal were after.  TC is all over for good, right?  That was not a real US Soccer Training Center.  TC actual stands for Toxic *Cult*ure.


Why does he need to prove something we all already know.  The proof is in your posts....
I guess if your DD wasn’t invited then it want real, right?


----------



## MacDre

Soccer43 said:


> Your ignorance about this subject shows up over and over again when you apply everything related to the men's game to the women's game (even the videos you post are men).  The style of play is different, the futures are different, the motivations of the players are different, the goals and ambitions are different, the college experience and purpose are different.  You have a female athlete so stop looking to the men's game for anything and stop trying to apply it to the women's game.  It doesn't apply.


You make strong conclusory statements.  I am relatively certain that you can’t support your conclusions with objective nuanced analysis but you have the audacity to call me ignorant. Strange.


----------



## full90

Women’s college soccer and men’s college soccer are two very different things. There’s no practical use in comparing them. 
men’s college soccer is not an optimum development environment because around the world other 18-22 year olds are in a professional environment with year round training, and a development ladder to the first team. They are assets. In the US, men’s players are limited to 20 games in the fall and limited practice time. Plus classes and life. And most are paying to do so.

the women’s college game differs because the rest of the world doesn’t provide a training environment for their 18-22 year olds. So US colleges are the best there is. Only now are professional clubs in Europe developing academies for women that aren’t yet on the first team. But it’s not the same as US colleges. It’s still the best environment for an 18-22 year old. Which is why we’ve won internationally. Our youth and college system is producing much better players. 
will the rest of the world catch up? Maybe. Other countries play better football than we do but don’t have the depth and athleticism to compete consistently. As those youth and pre professional academies grow our gap over the rest of the world will narrow.
To skip college and go pro worked out for Horan. She’s much better now than when she skipped college and left for Europe. Would she have developed at the same rate at UNC? Who knows?

I’ve watched college soccer for years. Especially in so cal and the pac 12. I know a few so cal soccer coaches so by no means am I an expert or anything. I played division one athletics and from my experience the kids who want to improve will. Everyone as a high schooler and freshman in college wants to be a pro. Everyone. But college sports is HARD. You realize pretty quickly if you want to be a pro it is exceptionally hard. The work required to go above and beyond what is already asked of you is a lot. Some people have the talent to make it without the grind. Some people are wired to grind.

After being around it for a long time I’d say the development of a player has more to do with them than the coach. Cal has produced a ton of pros but their teams are just not that good for who they have. Those kids could’ve probably gone to sac state and gone pro. If Neil was developing them from unfinished players into pros then we’d see the results on the field. But finishing 5th in conference and never winning an ncaa second round game EVER isn’t a sign that a ton of coaching is happening.


----------



## gotothebushes

Soccerfan2 said:


> Many people have told you many times that rambling on endlessly about your past, posting on every thread and posting song lyrics, memes and photos is annoying and unwanted. If you don’t want to turn people off, take the social feedback that you receive and put it to use.


Amen!


----------



## gotothebushes

Kicker4Life said:


> Why does he need to prove something we all already know.  The proof is in your posts....
> I guess if your DD wasn’t invited then it want real, right?


Kicker4Life please just keep the ignore button on! People will actually leave the forum so important topics can be discussed.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> Women’s college soccer and men’s college soccer are two very different things. There’s no practical use in comparing them.
> men’s college soccer is not an optimum development environment because around the world other 18-22 year olds are in a professional environment with year round training, and a development ladder to the first team. They are assets. In the US, men’s players are limited to 20 games in the fall and limited practice time. Plus classes and life. And most are paying to do so.
> 
> the women’s college game differs because the rest of the world doesn’t provide a training environment for their 18-22 year olds. So US colleges are the best there is. Only now are professional clubs in Europe developing academies for women that aren’t yet on the first team. But it’s not the same as US colleges. It’s still the best environment for an 18-22 year old. Which is why we’ve won internationally. Our youth and college system is producing much better players.
> will the rest of the world catch up? Maybe. Other countries play better football than we do but don’t have the depth and athleticism to compete consistently. As those youth and pre professional academies grow our gap over the rest of the world will narrow.
> To skip college and go pro worked out for Horan. She’s much better now than when she skipped college and left for Europe. Would she have developed at the same rate at UNC? Who knows?
> 
> I’ve watched college soccer for years. Especially in so cal and the pac 12. I know a few so cal soccer coaches so by no means am I an expert or anything. I played division one athletics and from my experience the kids who want to improve will. Everyone as a high schooler and freshman in college wants to be a pro. Everyone. But college sports is HARD. You realize pretty quickly if you want to be a pro it is exceptionally hard. The work required to go above and beyond what is already asked of you is a lot. Some people have the talent to make it without the grind. Some people are wired to grind.
> 
> After being around it for a long time I’d say the development of a player has more to do with them than the coach. Cal has produced a ton of pros but their teams are just not that good for who they have. Those kids could’ve probably gone to sac state and gone pro. If Neil was developing them from unfinished players into pros then we’d see the results on the field. But finishing 5th in conference and never winning an ncaa second round game EVER isn’t a sign that a ton of coaching is happening.


So moving forward as we see Europe and Mexico develop their leagues, do we continue with a flawed college system that was only successful because women in other places around the world didn’t have access to training and the large amount of female players here?

I also think 18-22 is too late for players that want to go pro.  My kids pediatrician and club are telling her 15-16 years old is when she should debut professionally.  I see FIFA implementing a pilot program in Mexico that they plan to eventually take to other less developed Federations.  I see folks here focused on past successes while ignoring the future.

I guess the reason that I am making a big fuss is because I think the system is flawed and The Jeweler is being used as a scapegoat.  Wouldn’t the ladies also benefit from a 2 semester college system?


----------



## crush

full90 said:


> *You realize pretty quickly if you want to be a pro it is exceptionally hard.* The work required to go above and beyond what is already asked of you is a lot. Some people have the talent to make it without the grind. Some people are wired to grind.
> 
> *After being around it for a long time I’d say the development of a player has more to do with them than the coach. *Cal has produced a ton of pros but their teams are just not that good for who they have. Those kids could’ve probably gone to sac state and gone pro. If Neil was developing them from unfinished players into pros then we’d see the results on the field. But finishing 5th in conference and never winning an ncaa second round game EVER isn’t a sign that a ton of coaching is happening.


A wise youth coach once told me players develop themselves more then a coach taking all the credit or the club taking the credit for where the goat player ends up.  It's marketing 101.  If the pay is their for the girls someday, then why not work hard for a nice reward.  You would welcome a little "yell" or "push" to be better.  Right now the reward to lay your body on the line and risk it all is a opportunity to play at a college for free if you got 4.0 plus excellent skills and obey always.  It's a full time job 90 with no pay.  Thanks for sharing your sage experience.  Truth hurts sometimes.


----------



## crush

gotothebushes said:


> Amen!


Preach it bro!!!


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> I agree with almost everything you have written, but you argument is separate and distinct from what @LASTMAN14 and @sdb are arguing.
> 
> It seems there are some that think D1 college soccer is similar to the 4H club-a place where young folks get mentored, supported, and encouraged to pursue their goals. I disagree.
> 
> The last 2 videos that I posted is clear objective proof that college soccer does not make better soccer players. Folks like Macario don’t improve from college soccer. Rather,  she is getting a degree from a great school for financial security. If we believe the numbers posted by MLS, it can be argued college soccer is counterproductive because of the schedule and high risk of injuries.
> 
> If we believe the young man in the video about how it is essential to listen to your coach tell you to do “dumb shit”, or you will not play it becomes very easy to understand how the Jeweler is bumping heads with young ladies that have an unrealistic goal of development on a P5 D1 soccer team.


Even Macario will probably make more money from the Stanford degree than she makes playing pro soccer.

As long as that is true, it doesn't really matter whether colleges develop players.  It matters whether colleges educate players.  The rest is gravy.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Even Macario will probably make more money from the Stanford degree than she makes playing pro soccer.
> 
> As long as that is true, it doesn't really matter whether colleges develop players.  It matters whether colleges educate players.  The rest is gravy.


All NERDS in my household so education is definitely the top priority.  I told my kid that if she wants me to support her pursuit of professional sports, that she has to have a STEM degree by 19.  The problems these ladies are complaining about were immediately evident to me throughout the system not just Cal.  I figured if my kid hit a college campus by 15, I could hold her hand and help her side step the BS and no one can tell me to kick rocks because she’s a minor.  I try not to ever put my kid in a position where there is such a gross inequity of bargaining power.


----------



## full90

So are you saying that someone is telling you club Tijuana has a women’s setup in place to lead to a pro career and by 15/16 your daughter should be there in order to go pro? Is that correct?


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> So moving forward as we see Europe and Mexico develop their leagues, do we continue with a flawed college system that was only successful because women in other places around the world didn’t have access to training and the large amount of female players here?
> 
> I also think 18-22 is too late for players that want to go pro.  My kids pediatrician and club are telling her 15-16 years old is when she should debut professionally.  I see FIFA implementing a pilot program in Mexico that they plan to eventually take to other less developed Federations.  I see folks here focused on past successes while ignoring the future.
> 
> I guess the reason that I am making a big fuss is because I think the system is flawed and The Jeweler is being used as a scapegoat.  Wouldn’t the ladies also benefit from a 2 semester college system?


They are exploring the 2 semester system and I think (could be wrong) that they had voted on it at some level prior to C19.

You have no empirical evidence to support your points that there's no development as there is no data either way (unless you count your videos as anything other than limited and anecdotal). In defense of my position, I would point to any number of freshman woman who over the course of their 4 years make it from redshirt/bench to periodic play to starting some games to starting all games. If the program's quality remains consistent over time then these players are improving and that improvement is most likely in both soccer and physical development.

Caterina Macario is an outlier in all respects. So is Jesse Fleming, yet she chose to go to UCLA over pro options available to her being from Canada and not limited like a USA player. Why UCLA? Because it was an environment in which she'd improve (i.e. develop). And bonus, a degree from a top school.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> So are you saying that someone is telling you club Tijuana has a women’s setup in place to lead to a pro career and by 15/16 your daughter should be there in order to go pro? Is that correct?


No, I am saying that my kid is in Fuerzas Basicas for Club Tijuana.  I am saying that in Liga MX Femenil girls can sign pro contracts at 15 and play for the first team.  There’s also no salary cap.  One of my kids friends is in FIFA’s U17 Pilot for Mexico’s YNT and was recently promoted to the first team of Club Tijuana during the Covid break.  Club Tijuana coaches have told my kid that she WILL move to the first team between 15-16.  They moved her to Fuerzas Basicas at 12 (against my wishes) to prepare.  Before the Covid outbreak she was already training in the stadium with the big girls and doing well.


----------



## crush

I have a serious question and no satire @Dre.  How much can a top 18 year old female make after HS School is over in 2022?  I'm hearing lot's of money that has been in the wrong hands will now start getting into the hands of the actual girls who play the game.  So instead of paying to play, they pay the girls to play.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> I have a serious question and no satire @Dre.  How much can a top 18 year old female make after HS School is over in 2022?  I'm hearing lot's of money that has been in the wrong hands will now start getting into the hands of the actual girls who play the game.  So instead of paying to play, they pay the girls to play.


I am not sure.  At this point, I don’t think much until women’s games are televised more often.  I think all families with girls need to insist that professional women’s games be televised so that these ladies can get paid.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I am not sure.  At this point, I don’t think much until women’s games are televised more often.  I think all families with girls need to insist that professional women’s games be televised so that these ladies can get paid.


I would love to see the WWSL kick off some day Dre.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> For those that think there’s development in college, can you reconcile your position with that of the D1 player in minute 3:50-5:20 of this video?  Maybe the problem is that folks have unrealistic expectations of what happens in college soccer and not the Jeweler.


Well, you can high press with control or you can press like an Australian shepherd.  Don't blame the coach for that.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> I am not sure.  At this point, I don’t think much until women’s games are televised more often.  I think all families with girls need to insist that professional women’s games be televised so that these ladies can get paid.


Stop with the "insist" nonsense.  That's all society has become... "I insist you give me _________".  It's fucking ridiculous.  

The market demand drives televised sports like it drives everything else.  25 parents per college team isn't going to drive demand.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

full90 said:


> So are you saying that someone is telling you club Tijuana has a women’s setup in place to lead to a pro career and by 15/16 your daughter should be there in order to go pro? Is that correct?


"professional" is a very fluid term.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> Stop with the "insist" nonsense.  That's all society has become... "I insist you give me _________".  It's fucking ridiculous.
> 
> The market demand drives televised sports like it drives everything else.  25 parents per college team isn't going to drive demand.


Actually this not true.  In soccer/football women packed stadiums prior to men in England and Mexico and then men outlawed women playing the sport until about 1980.  

We are talking about institutionalized sexism that needs to be remedied.  The demand it out there for the ladies.  The only problem is that we have too many tools in leadership that are holding the ladies back.


----------



## crush

Go Girls!!!

Passion + Dreams= Passion Dreams


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Actually this not true.  In soccer/football women packed stadiums prior to men in England and Mexico and then men outlawed women playing the sport until about 1980.
> 
> We are talking about institutionalized sexism that needs to be remedied.  The demand it out there for the ladies.  The only problem is that we have too many tools in leadership that are holding the ladies back.


It's 2020, my man.  If the best example you have is 40-years old, next?


----------



## msoccerm

@MacDre - you are correct that in countries that have developed womens professional leagues (e.g. Europe, Asia) elite female players are already identified by 15 and playing professionally by 16 and are NOT paying to play. The NWSL doesn't let players play until they are 18 and that's a bit late to get started imo. An elite 18 female yo German player for example has already played at least 3 years with older, experienced players and has had professional coaching.

I hate to see posters here mock players who want to play professionally. 
After all, soccer is a *sport*. Why can't players get a degree after they finish playing professionally? I know I would hire someone with that kind of experience over an 21 year old grad with a doctored up resume with volunteering and unpaid summer internships. Life is about doing what you enjoy even if it doesn't pay a lot. Most of us will work until 65. Is starting at 30 as opposed to early 20's so bad?  A lot of pro players are also doing their degrees online while playing - no it's not the fun US college experience, but being on a good pro team is a fun experience too.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Go Girls!!!
> 
> Passion + Dreams= Passion Dreams


Shout out to the Plascencia family that own several great restaurant in TJ.  Michelin Star quality restaurants at Applebees prices.


----------



## MacDre

I


Scott m Shurson said:


> It's 2020, my man.  If the best example you have is 40-years old, next?


I was just explaining why we should be insistent on behalf of the young ladies.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> I
> 
> I was just explaining why we should be insistent on behalf of the young ladies.


They have those opportunities.  If people want it, they'll pay to watch it.


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> @MacDre - you are correct that in countries that have developed womens professional leagues (e.g. Europe, Asia) elite female players are already identified by 15 and playing professionally by 16 and are NOT paying to play. The NWSL doesn't let players play until they are 18 and that's a bit late to get started imo. An elite 18 female yo German player for example has already played at least 3 years with older, experienced players and has had professional coaching.
> 
> I hate to see posters here mock players who want to play professionally.
> After all, soccer is a *sport*. Why can't players get a degree after they finish playing professionally? I know I would hire someone with that kind of experience over an 21 year old grad with a doctored up resume with volunteering and unpaid summer internships. Life is about doing what you enjoy even if it doesn't pay a lot. Most of us will work until 65. Is starting at 30 as opposed to early 20's so bad?  A lot of pro players are also doing their degrees online while playing - no it's not the fun US college experience, but being on a good pro team is a fun experience too.


I think UCSD, USD, & San Diego State are all options for kids at Club Tijuana once Liga MX opens up to foreigners.  So the girls can have language immersion, a pro career, and can go to college while living in sunny San Diego/TJ.

Those that prefer the Texas border can play for Tigres or the Rayados.  Young Players can attend Tec de Monterrey or go to a Texas University.


----------



## MacDre

More evidence of a systemic problem...









						Female college athletes from across the US say they've been bullied, manipulated, and psychologically abused by their coaches
					

Interviews with 17 former college athletes, insights from previous investigations, and input from experts suggest an alarming pattern of abuse.




					www.google.com


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I think UCSD, USD, & San Diego State are all options for kids at Club Tijuana once Liga MX opens up to foreigners.  So the girls can have language immersion, a pro career, and can go to college while living in sunny San Diego/TJ.
> 
> Those that prefer the Texas border can play for Tigres or the Rayados.  Young Players can attend Tec de Monterrey or go to a Texas University.


Mesa College is good option as well.


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> I agree but the MLS seems to think there are problems with college soccer.  I think if things are bad on the men’s side, then surely things are worse on the women’s side.  I’m at a loss as to how anyone can possibly suggest that women have a superior environment to men anywhere in our society whether it be soccer, Silicon Valley, or Wall Street because women ALWAYS “get the short end of the stick.”
> 
> I think you have to embrace the MLS message if you want to see development in college soccer.  Admitting that there is a problem with the system is the first step to fixing the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MLS: College Soccer is in trouble, but NCAA vote can save it
> 
> 
> In April, the NCAA will vote on expanding the college soccer season. The result will impact the relevancy of college soccer as a pathway to MLS. College so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


MLS is a joke. It has failed.


----------



## LASTMAN14

crush said:


> Dre, Lastman and his side kick monitor the Idiots on here and are here to make sure were silence.  Here's a fact Dre.  My dd is 17 almost.  She has been in youth soccer since she was 6.  She was recruited by all the greats in socal before the job title of Director of Girls Coaching (Girls DOC)) was invented for girls in the failed GDA.  It was also a position top male coaches lobbed for and boy did they.  I was in the middle of two crazy folks fighting for power and a raise. The Doc was the man and he had something people wanted.  Can you guess Dre?  He the Doc took over soccer in socal and got all the power.  Lastman calls me an idiot but I'm the one who came on here saying the GDA ((run by men and dad)) will be toast and it's boat ride to Mr Jones Island with so much Kool Aid you will never be thirsty again in the "Pay me so you can Play League."  It was an easy call.  You cant treat girls like this and be successful.  I would think, "Crush, you nailed it" would be in the works after Lastman ignored me until last nights, "Please stop Idiot, Please stop!!!!" No, all I get is I'm an idiot.  Maybe he will thank me later? For the record, the sh*t my dd went through was evil.  You can;t treat a girl(s) and her dreams like trash all because she was bad for business because she wanted to play public high school soccer.


Oh my goodness. Sitting by a fire pit in Indian Wells listening to your yelps of poor us. Earn it! That’s it!


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> So moving forward as we see Europe and Mexico develop their leagues, do we continue with a flawed college system that was only successful because women in other places around the world didn’t have access to training and the large amount of female players here?
> 
> I also think 18-22 is too late for players that want to go pro.  My kids pediatrician and club are telling her 15-16 years old is when she should debut professionally.  I see FIFA implementing a pilot program in Mexico that they plan to eventually take to other less developed Federations.  I see folks here focused on past successes while ignoring the future.
> 
> I guess the reason that I am making a big fuss is because I think the system is flawed and The Jeweler is being used as a scapegoat.  Wouldn’t the ladies also benefit from a 2 semester college system?


Sorry. Your comparing two things. Stop it. Fine if you want your DD to play non-college. Send her off to Europe.


----------



## El Clasico

LASTMAN14 said:


> MLS is a joke. It has failed.


I disagree. When you consider how many teams/divisions/leagues, etc., etc. there are and the overall poor quality of soccer found here in the U.S., and the MLS has still managed to make mens soccer a fairly profitable venture, I would say that they have actually been pretty successful. As a league, they have no intention, despite what they may state, to compete with the top leagues or implement any type of pro/rel system. They just want a return on their investment. It's a business to them here. In other places, it is a passion (and quite profitable for some).


----------



## LASTMAN14

El Clasico said:


> I disagree. When you consider how many teams/divisions/leagues, etc., etc. there are and the overall poor quality of soccer found here in the U.S., and the MLS has still managed to make mens soccer a fairly profitable venture, I would say that they have actually been pretty successful. As a league, they have no intention, despite what they may state, to compete with the top leagues or implement any type of pro/rel system. They just want a return on their investment. It's a business to them here. In other places, it is a passion (and quite profitable for some).


Your talking finances. I’m not. I’m also responding accordingly to the previous poster which will alter our convo.


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> I agree with almost everything you have written, but you argument is separate and distinct from what @LASTMAN14 and @sdb are arguing.
> 
> It seems there are some that think D1 college soccer is similar to the 4H club-a place where young folks get mentored, supported, and encouraged to pursue their goals. I disagree.
> 
> The last 2 videos that I posted is clear objective proof that college soccer does not make better soccer players. Folks like Macario don’t improve from college soccer. Rather,  she is getting a degree from a great school for financial security. If we believe the numbers posted by MLS, it can be argued college soccer is counterproductive because of the schedule and high risk of injuries.
> 
> If we believe the young man in the video about how it is essential to listen to your coach tell you to do “dumb shit”, or you will not play it becomes very easy to understand how the Jeweler is bumping heads with young ladies that have an unrealistic goal of development on a P5 D1 soccer team.
> [/QUOTE
> 4H. Hmm. Do what you will.


----------



## crush

LASTMAN14 said:


> Oh my goodness. Sitting by a fire pit in Indian Wells *listening* to your yelps of poor us. *Earn it!* That’s it!


Are you still hearing my voice at night bro?  I'm sorry you hear me loud & clear and you think of me and Dre late at night on your vacation in Indian Wells.  I hope your golfing too.  Every time you use your driver, think of me, The Crush and crush the hell out of the ball for me.  When you putt, think about how my dd was treated by assholes.  After my three year investigation, she is not the only one who was lied to.  It's interesting that you and EOTL make fun of my dd.  BTW, she earn everything she got from the Doc who had the pick back in September 2017.  I think if she was able to to get the recruits phone number to the head master at the US Soccer Training Center, then she would have earned it.  I'm proud of her for standing up to those who lie, cheat, fat shame, yell, scream, manipulate and behave very, very naughty around young teenage girls.  That is 100% why the GDA failed.  GDA got what they earned and please, do not blame it on Rona.  That league's leadership was full of liars and cheaters.  Do you not see that by now?  I'm looking pass 2020 now.


----------



## El Clasico

LASTMAN14 said:


> Your talking finances. I’m not. I’m also responding accordingly to the previous poster which will alter our convo.


Got it. ...and I don't actually disagree. I was being a little tongue and cheeky.  If you review 10 years or so of my posts, I have never been a believer in the MLS model at any level. They are their own worst enemy so I throw in a cheap shot when I can. Sometimes sarcastic and sometimes not.


----------



## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> MLS is a joke. It has failed.


So, if MLS is a joke and the MLS thinks college is a joke, what can be deduced from this?


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> So, if MLS is a joke and the MLS thinks college is a joke, what can be deduced from this?


Let's see when Lastman wakes up.  He was tripping out late last night with me and you Dre.  Listening to my bad yelp reviews over the years in his head.  Some think I came to draw attention to myself because I failed to go pro bro.  I have some real good meds that keep the voices away for the day Lastman.  I was sleeping and dreaming of a day that no one ever cheats again and then I wake up and see Lastman going Indian Wells on me.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> So, if MLS is a joke and the MLS thinks college is a joke, what can be deduced from this?


You need to pay to play and then earn it!!!


----------



## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> Sorry. Your comparing two things. Stop it. Fine if you want your DD to play non-college. Send her off to Europe.


I never said I didn’t want my kid to play college.  My kid wouldn’t have been identified if we had not shown interest in college.  I am saying after doing extensive research, it appears that the college environment is abusive and not beneficial to development more often than not.  

So, again it’s my position that development in college is a fallacy with a few possible exceptions.  If folks want their kids developed, it would behoove them to stop drinking the Kool-Aide and look elsewhere for that development.  Again, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Let's see when Lastman wakes up.  He was tripping out late last night with me and you Dre.  Listening to my bad yelp reviews over the years in his head.  Some think I came to draw attention to myself because I failed to go pro bro.  I have some real good meds that keep the voices away for the day Lastman.  I was sleeping and dreaming of a day that no one ever cheats again and then I wake up and see Lastman going Indian Wells on me.


Don’t trip LASTMAN is obviously the LASTMAN anyone should take advice from.  He has yet to do his homework but wants to apply his limited personal experience to everything soccer; so he’s kinda blind to the truth.
Me, I stay ready.  You’d think these dudes would know this by now.  Slow learners I guess.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> Don’t trip LASTMAN is obviously the LASTMAN anyone should take advice from.  He has yet to do his homework but wants to apply his limited personal experience to everything soccer; so he’s kinda blind to the truth.
> Me, I stay ready.  You’d think these dudes would know this by now.  Slow learners I guess.


Or they have something to lose and get all mad at me and make fun of my dd and say she needed to earn it back in 2017.  She has the hardware and the goals to back it up.  She just didnt win favor with the Doc(s) who had the pics.  Simple is as simple is.


----------



## MacDre

For the folks out there that are interested in objective information as to how to best develop your kids, I’d recommend considering the following articles regarding Liga MX Femenil opening up to foreigners in 2021.  Also take note, that the U17’s will be traveling and training with the first team.  U17’s will play before the first team similar to how JV plays before varsity in High School competitions.  For the younger players that haven’t finished college Club Tijuana, Rayados, and Tigres are the best option in my opinion because they can go to college in San Diego or Texas (or Tec de Monterrey).  For those graduating from college or not going to college there are 15 other teams in the interior of Mexico that will be looking for foreign talent.

The articles are in Spanish.  If you can’t read Spanish just cut and paste the article in google translate.









						Liga MX Femenil prevé abrir a extranjeras en 2021
					

El plan estratégico de la liga tiene en la mira el cambio para su quinto año.




					www.tudn.mx


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> For the folks out there that are interested in objective information as to how to best develop your kids, I’d recommend considering the following articles regarding Liga MX Femenil opening up to foreigners in 2021.  Also take note, that the U17’s will be traveling and training with the first team.  U17’s will play before the first team similar to how JV plays before varsity in High School competitions.  For the younger players that haven’t finished college Club Tijuana, Rayados, and Tigres are the best option in my opinion because they can go to college in San Diego or Texas (or Tec de Monterrey).  For those graduating from college or not going to college there are 15 other teams in the interior of Mexico that will be looking for foreign talent.
> 
> The articles are in Spanish.  If you can’t read Spanish just cut and paste the article in google translate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liga MX Femenil prevé abrir a extranjeras en 2021
> 
> 
> El plan estratégico de la liga tiene en la mira el cambio para su quinto año.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tudn.mx


2022 could look promising for anyone who would want to play some pro ball and then take classes at SDSU or Mesa?  I used to go down to Baja surfing and taco hunting in the 80s.  This one local guy had a taco cart that was out of this world Dre.  Hot dogs wrapped with bacon and then killer home made salsa on top.  Wash it down with some Corona's and shots and one is in heaven.  Wake up early and be first to surf and get all waves to oneself for first hour.  He had some pollo that was so juicy your mouth would get all watery before you took your first bite.  Carna Asada was insane and just the bomb place to eat.  All off a food cart.  Dre, How safe is it today and and how much safer will it be in 2022?  How many foreigners allowed on each team?  Pay? Thanks for the information. When my wife wakes up, I will have her interpret it for me.  If I hear you right, a foreign player could play in TJ ((if they can make the squad)) and then go to local college at the same time.  It would be super cool if they somehow allowed the player to also play college ball.  Or, they can work hard at studies and earn a deal and play ball in college and then go pro in 2026?  So many options if one can hang and has the passion to be a pro or college player or both or none at all and just quit because they hate it and or are burned out.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> 2022 could look promising for anyone who would want to play some pro ball and then take classes at SDSU or Mesa?  I used to go down to Baja surfing and taco hunting in the 80s.  This one local guy had a taco cart that was out of this world Dre.  Hot dogs wrapped with bacon and then killer home made salsa on top.  Wash it down with some Corona's and shots and one is in heaven.  Wake up early and be first to surf and get all waves to oneself for first hour.  He had some pollo that was so juicy your mouth would get all watery before you took your first bite.  Carna Asada was insane and just the bomb place to eat.  All off a food cart.  Dre, How safe is it today and and how much safer will it be in 2022?  How many foreigners allowed on each team?  Pay? Thanks for the information. When my wife wakes up, I will have her interpret it for me.  If I hear you right, a foreign player could play in TJ ((if they can make the squad)) and then go to local college at the same time.  It would be super cool if they somehow allowed the player to also play college ball.  Or, they can work hard at studies and earn a deal and play ball in college and then go pro in 2026?  So many options if one can hang and has the passion to be a pro or college player or both or none at all and just quit because they hate it and or are burned out.


TJ is similar to LA or the Bay Area because it can be very safe or very dangerous depending on what part of town you are in.  In TJ, if you stay away from drugs and hookers and stick to futbol, food, and museums you do not have anything to worry about regarding safety.

I am not sure how many foreigners will be allowed; maybe 6 including Mexican Americans in that total.  Pay should be negotiable as there is no salary cap in Liga MX.  However, to date most players have not been paid well but that’ll change with the introduction of foreign talent.

I asked Austin at Cal if it was possible to play college and pro and he told me that there was a girl currently (Dec 2019) on Cal’s team that had played in the Champions League before coming to Cal but I don’t remember her name.   I think he also said that the team could only pay for expenses in order to maintain college eligibility.  I don’t think you can do both at the same time.  But, I also don’t think it matters now that there will be NWSL teams on the West Coast from Oregon down to LA that will potentially play friendlies vs. Xolo’s.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> TJ is similar to LA or the Bay Area because it can be very safe or very dangerous depending on what part of town you are in.  In TJ, if you stay away from drugs and hookers and stick to futbol, food, and museums you do not have anything to worry about regarding safety.
> 
> I am not sure how many foreigners will be allowed; maybe 6 including Mexican Americans in that total.  Pay should be negotiable as there is no salary cap in Liga MX.  However, to date most players have not been paid well but that’ll change with the introduction of foreign talent.
> 
> I asked Austin at Cal if it was possible to play college and pro and he told me that there was a girl currently (Dec 2019) on Cal’s team that had played in the Champions League before coming to Cal but I don’t remember her name.   I think he also said that the team could only pay for expenses in order to maintain college eligibility.  I don’t think you can do both at the same time.  But, I also don’t think it matters now that there will be NWSL teams on the West Coast from Oregon down to LA that will potentially play friendlies vs. Xolo’s.


Native American?


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> For the folks out there that are interested in objective information as to how to best develop your kids, I’d recommend considering the following articles regarding Liga MX Femenil opening up to foreigners in 2021.  Also take note, that the U17’s will be traveling and training with the first team.  U17’s will play before the first team similar to how JV plays before varsity in High School competitions.  For the younger players that haven’t finished college Club Tijuana, Rayados, and Tigres are the best option in my opinion because they can go to college in San Diego or Texas (or Tec de Monterrey).  For those graduating from college or not going to college there are 15 other teams in the interior of Mexico that will be looking for foreign talent.
> 
> The articles are in Spanish.  If you can’t read Spanish just cut and paste the article in google translate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liga MX Femenil prevé abrir a extranjeras en 2021
> 
> 
> El plan estratégico de la liga tiene en la mira el cambio para su quinto año.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tudn.mx


If you really want to learn about Mexican Futbol...here you go. It is almost like a documentary 

Not a bad comedy actually.









						Watch Club de Cuervos | Netflix Official Site
					

A brother and sister battle high expectations and each other after inheriting a soccer team. A series from the creators of “Nosotros los Nobles.”




					www.netflix.com


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> For the folks out there that are interested in objective information as to how to best develop your kids, I’d recommend considering the following articles regarding Liga MX Femenil opening up to foreigners in 2021.  Also take note, that the U17’s will be traveling and training with the first team.  U17’s will play before the first team similar to how JV plays before varsity in High School competitions.  For the younger players that haven’t finished college Club Tijuana, Rayados, and Tigres are the best option in my opinion because they can go to college in San Diego or Texas (or Tec de Monterrey).  For those graduating from college or not going to college there are 15 other teams in the interior of Mexico that will be looking for foreign talent.
> 
> The articles are in Spanish.  If you can’t read Spanish just cut and paste the article in google translate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liga MX Femenil prevé abrir a extranjeras en 2021
> 
> 
> El plan estratégico de la liga tiene en la mira el cambio para su quinto año.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tudn.mx


I'm curious if your daughter's team has played a top SD Surf team in a similar age group, or any other top SD club team? If so, results?


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> I'm curious if your daughter's team has played a top SD Surf team in a similar age group, or any other top SD club team? If so, results?


I do recall the Blues coming down to the stadium about 1 year ago.  They played the Amazonas in the stadium.  My kid and several others players were playing for CEFO (Baja California) preparing for a Scotiabank tournament in Spain I believe so they couldn’t participate.  I am not sure of the results but coach Yazmin was fired shortly after so I don’t think it went well.

I’m not sure if the results matter also because Fuerzas Basicas is a developmental league and part of the maturation process is putting players in new situations so they can make mistakes and grow as opposed to focusing only on winning.  If winning was the primary consideration Liga MX Femenil wouldn’t mandate that U17’s play a minimum amount of first team minutes each tournament.  Also, since the league will be open to foreigners in 2021 it seems reasonable to assume that the best players from San Diego and TJ will join and be the best team in the San Diego area.  Why would the best players in San Diego want to stay at surf when there’s a free professional option in the same community?
Xolo’s program is well funded and supported now and you can see the changes with Franky Oviedo’s promotion to head coach and the U17’s travel with the first team.  

Initially there were some kinks in the program but the league is doing a great job of addressing the problems and working towards their goal of being the best women’s league in the world.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I do recall the Blues coming down to the stadium about 1 year ago.  They played the Amazonas in the stadium.  My kid and several others players were playing for CEFO (Baja California) preparing for a Scotiabank tournament in Spain I believe so they couldn’t participate.  I am not sure of the results but coach Yazmin was fired shortly after so I don’t think it went well.
> 
> I’m not sure if the results matter also because Fuerzas Basicas is a developmental league and part of the maturation process is putting players in new situations so they can make mistakes and grow as opposed to focusing only on winning.  If winning was the primary consideration Liga MX Femenil wouldn’t mandate that U17’s play a minimum amount of first team minutes each tournament.  Also, since the league will be open to foreigners in 2021 it seems reasonable to assume that the best players from San Diego and TJ will join and be the best team in the San Diego area.  Why would the best players in San Diego want to stay at surf when there’s a free professional option in the same community?
> Xolo’s program is well funded and supported now and you can see the changes with Franky Oviedo’s promotion to head coach and the U17’s travel with the first team.
> 
> Initially there were some kinks in the program but the league is doing a great job of addressing the problems and working towards their goal of being the best women’s league in the world.


XOLOS's girls club came up and scrimmaged out National Championship team in 2017 in Del Mar.  We were 04s and they played 03s.  We won but they played us very tough and that was three years ago.  My wife was very impressed with what their doing for the girls.


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> XOLOS's girls club came up and scrimmaged out National Championship team in 2017 in Del Mar.  We were 04s and they played 03s.  We won but they played us very tough and that was three years ago.  My wife was very impressed with what their doing for the girls.


There are a few pay to play Xolo’s teams in Socal I think.  I don’t think the Fuerzas Basicas team has traveled to the USA because a few of the girls are very poor and don’t have visas.  
The logistics and politics of getting good local games was becoming a problem for Xolo’s because they are more in America than Mexico; most Mexicans teams are located in central and southern Mexico.  So, the owners invested and now the U17’s get to travel with the first team.  Problem solved.  However, with 17 games per tournament I am not sure how they’d schedule friendlies with California teams.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> There are a few pay to play Xolo’s teams in Socal I think.  I don’t think the Fuerzas Basicas team has traveled to the USA because a few of the girls are very poor and don’t have visas.
> The logistics and politics of getting good local games was becoming a problem for Xolo’s because they are more in America than Mexico; most Mexicans teams are located in central and southern Mexico.  So, the owners invested and now the U17’s get to travel with the first team.  Problem solved.  However, with 17 games per tournament I am not sure how they’d schedule friendlies with California teams.


The team my dd played with Surf came up from TJ Dre and were a part of the real XOLOs.  I'm not making this up. I do remember my dd playing a XOLO tournament up in Temecula and my dd played lights out and won again   See attached.  When I first checked Google and typed, "club soccer Temecula" in 2010, I got Arsenal.  I thought it the club from England looking to find the next Messi or Mia.  BTW, she Earn It!!!


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> I do recall the Blues coming down to the stadium about 1 year ago.  They played the Amazonas in the stadium.  My kid and several others players were playing for CEFO (Baja California) preparing for a Scotiabank tournament in Spain I believe so they couldn’t participate.  I am not sure of the results but coach Yazmin was fired shortly after so I don’t think it went well.
> 
> I’m not sure if the results matter also because Fuerzas Basicas is a developmental league and part of the maturation process is putting players in new situations so they can make mistakes and grow as opposed to focusing only on winning.  If winning was the primary consideration Liga MX Femenil wouldn’t mandate that U17’s play a minimum amount of first team minutes each tournament.  Also, since the league will be open to foreigners in 2021 it seems reasonable to assume that the best players from San Diego and TJ will join and be the best team in the San Diego area.  Why would the best players in San Diego want to stay at surf when there’s a free professional option in the same community?
> Xolo’s program is well funded and supported now and you can see the changes with Franky Oviedo’s promotion to head coach and the U17’s travel with the first team.
> 
> Initially there were some kinks in the program but the league is doing a great job of addressing the problems and working towards their goal of being the best women’s league in the world.


It's hard to evaluate the quality of the program with the information out there which is somewhat limited based on a few English-language searches. Sure results don't equate to development, but a pro team's results vs. the top amateur teams in the San Diego area would at least be one guidepost that would give me something to reference. U17s playing with the first team is great, but where can we find more information about the U17s playing other U17s and the program in general? I'd love to learn more.


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> It's hard to evaluate the quality of the program with the information out there which is somewhat limited based on a few English-language searches. Sure results don't equate to development, but a pro team's results vs. the top amateur teams in the San Diego area would at least be one guidepost that would give me something to reference. U17s playing with the first team is great, but where can we find more information about the U17s playing other U17s and the program in general? I'd love to learn more.


I don’t think you can because it probably doesn’t exist.  If you look at a map of Mexico and if you look at where all of the Liga MX clubs are located, you’ll see that Club Tijuana is very far away from the other Liga MX clubs.  The closest clubs are Tigres and Rayados and the others are in the interior of Mexico.  When the league started a few years back there was a lack of sponsors and owner support.  Now that the owners are supportive and the league is sponsored things are changing.

Only the very best 15 year olds will play with the first team.  The U17’s will travel with the first team and play other Liga MX U17’s prior to the first team games.  If you scroll down on the article posted upthread regarding Liga MX opening up to foreign players there is an article under explaining that the implementation of the U17 program was postponed due to Covid.  The President of Liga MX Femenil says the same Covid 19 protocol used for the first team will be used for the U17’s in 2021 I think.

I never receive any information in English.  I have attached the initial press release that I received from a Rayados coach that was working with my kid on the Baja California team.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I don’t think you can because it probably doesn’t exist.  If you look at a map of Mexico and if you look at where all of the Liga MX clubs are located, you’ll see that Club Tijuana is very far away from the other Liga MX clubs.  The closest clubs are Tigres and Rayados and the others are in the interior of Mexico.  When the league started a few years back there was a lack of sponsors and owner support.  Now that the owners are supportive and the league is sponsored things are changing.
> 
> Only the very best 15 year olds will play with the first team.  The U17’s will travel with the first team and play other Liga MX U17’s prior to the first team games.  If you scroll down on the article posted upthread regarding Liga MX opening up to foreign players there is an article under explaining that the implementation of the U17 program was postponed due to Covid.  The President of Liga MX Femenil says the same Covid 19 protocol used for the first team will be used for the U17’s in 2021 I think.
> 
> I never receive any information in English.  I have attached the initial press release that I received from a Rayados coach that was working with my kid on the Baja California team.


This is so rad Dre.  It's an option for those who are looking for options.  It should never be one size fits all.  Choices is the key.  I love this and 100% support it.  Good luck to your goat Dre and I hope to see her playing.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> I don’t think you can because it probably doesn’t exist.  If you look at a map of Mexico and if you look at where all of the Liga MX clubs are located, you’ll see that Club Tijuana is very far away from the other Liga MX clubs.  The closest clubs are Tigres and Rayados and the others are in the interior of Mexico.  When the league started a few years back there was a lack of sponsors and owner support.  Now that the owners are supportive and the league is sponsored things are changing.
> 
> Only the very best 15 year olds will play with the first team.  The U17’s will travel with the first team and play other Liga MX U17’s prior to the first team games.  If you scroll down on the article posted upthread regarding Liga MX opening up to foreign players there is an article under explaining that the implementation of the U17 program was postponed due to Covid.  The President of Liga MX Femenil says the same Covid 19 protocol used for the first team will be used for the U17’s in 2021 I think.
> 
> I never receive any information in English.  I have attached the initial press release that I received from a Rayados coach that was working with my kid on the Baja California team.


I'd be interested to understand how you think the level of play is in comparison to top Spanish clubs and top SoCal Clubs. In summer 2019, the LAG GDA U14 team took a trip to Spain to play in the 1st Angeles Football Cup and won the event. They were undefeated vs. Atletico Madrid, Zaragoza, Osasuna, Valencia and Olympico Lyonnaise (2-0 in the final).


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> I'd be interested to understand how you think the level of play is in comparison to top Spanish clubs and top SoCal Clubs. In summer 2019, the LAG GDA U14 team took a trip to Spain to play in the 1st Angeles Football Cup and won the event. They were undefeated vs. Atletico Madrid, Zaragoza, Osasuna, Valencia and Olympico Lyonnaise (2-0 in the final).


If we are talking specifically about Club Tijuana, I think the level of play will be superior.  Xolo’s motto is “a team w/o borders” so any level of play possible in Socal is possible at Xolo’s.  For example, Xolo’s, ECNL, and GA will be competing for the same top players and Xolo’s have the advantage because they’re a pro team.  I think several girls are going to be interested in playing in a U17 Liga MX “minor league/junior varsity type program”.  Training and facilities are excellent.  I recall folks having similar reservations about the level of play when OM moved from Socal to Portland.  But, I think it’s a different ball of wax when these young players are training with the first team and it’s hard to compare and contrast to a pay to play system that has to win for marketing purposes.

I noticed one of the clubs defeated by LAG was OL.  OL is considered one of the best and highest paying women’s team in the world.  Maybe LAG beat OL & Athletico because they were better.  Maybe LAG won because their focus was on winning instead of development.

I think US teams have traditionally been more physical than Mexican and Spanish teams. I can assure you going forward fitness will not be an issue for the Mexican teams.  So if Tigres beat Houston Dash and Houston Dash won the NWSL challenge cup, I think the level of play is good and will only improve with foreign players and investment into the league.


----------



## crush




----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> It's hard to evaluate the quality of the program with the information out there which is somewhat limited based on a few English-language searches. Sure results don't equate to development, but a pro team's results vs. the top amateur teams in the San Diego area would at least be one guidepost that would give me something to reference. U17s playing with the first team is great, but where can we find more information about the U17s playing other U17s and the program in general? I'd love to learn more.


I know this is in Spanish but the staff in the video are essentially the new women’s team staff.  I like the part where Franky Oviedo says school is first and if you don’t do well then you cannot participate.

Even if you can’t  understand, you can see the facilities.


----------



## crush

MacDre said:


> I know this is in Spanish but the staff in the video are essentially the new women’s team staff.  I like the part where Franky Oviedo says school is first and if you don’t do well then you cannot participate.
> 
> Even if you can’t  understand, you can see the facilities.


Do they mandate a certain GPA to honor school first?  What does doing well mean truly?


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> I never said I didn’t want my kid to play college.  My kid wouldn’t have been identified if we had not shown interest in college.  I am saying after doing extensive research, it appears that the college environment is abusive and not beneficial to development more often than not.
> 
> So, again it’s my position that development in college is a fallacy with a few possible exceptions.  If folks want their kids developed, it would behoove them to stop drinking the Kool-Aide and look elsewhere for that development.  Again, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.


At what age was your daughter "identified"?


----------



## MacDre

crush said:


> Do they mandate a certain GPA to honor school first?  What does doing well mean truly?


No.  It means they understand the reality that most kids won’t make the first team and need an education to fall back on.  In Mexico many kids from lower social classes stop going to school young and Xolo’s don’t allow that in their program.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> At what age was your daughter "identified"?


She was 10 when Cal posted her on their IG.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> If we are talking specifically about Club Tijuana, I think the level of play will be superior.  Xolo’s motto is “a team w/o borders” so any level of play possible in Socal is possible at Xolo’s.  For example, Xolo’s, ECNL, and GA will be competing for the same top players and Xolo’s have the advantage because they’re a pro team.  I think several girls are going to be interested in playing in a U17 Liga MX “minor league/junior varsity type program”.  Training and facilities are excellent.  I recall folks having similar reservations about the level of play when OM moved from Socal to Portland.  But, I think it’s a different ball of wax when these young players are training with the first team and it’s hard to compare and contrast to a pay to play system that has to win for marketing purposes.
> 
> I noticed one of the clubs defeated by LAG was OL.  OL is considered one of the best and highest paying women’s team in the world.  Maybe LAG beat OL & Athletico because they were better.  Maybe LAG won because their focus was on winning instead of development.
> 
> I think US teams have traditionally been more physical than Mexican and Spanish teams. I can assure you going forward fitness will not be an issue for the Mexican teams.  So if Tigres beat Houston Dash and Houston Dash won the NWSL challenge cup, I think the level of play is good and will only improve with foreign players and investment into the league.


I’m pretty sure all of the teams present at that event were focused on winning.

What kind of a contract gets signed at the U17 level? Is there compensation?What is the average player salary for a 1st team player for Xolas and the rest of the league?


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> I’m pretty sure all of the teams present at that event were focused on winning.
> 
> What kind of a contract gets signed at the U17 level? Is there compensation?What is the average player salary for a 1st team player for Xolas and the rest of the league?


I don’t know.  My kid just turned 13 so that hasn’t been my focus.  I do know that everything is negotiable, Liga MX Femenil has no salary cap, and the Xolo’s have a billionaire owner.

But, let’s assume a kid doesn’t get any money, they’ll learn Spanish, travel, and get great training while studying in San Diego.  Seems like a win/win situation for the players selected.


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> I’m pretty sure all of the teams present at that event were focused on winning.


I am sure all the teams present were focused on winning too.  When I say a team is focused on development, I mean they are preparing players for the first team.  For example, in my players situation, she’s 13 playing on a U17 team.  I’m sure there’s a 16 year old somewhere around that could do a better job than my 13 year old can currently but winning now is not important.  Xolo’s would rather lose a game playing my 13 in hopes that she’s prepared for the first team instead of playing the 16 year old to win today.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> She was 10 when Cal posted her on their IG.


With all due respect, do you realize how there's no way to "identify" the future of a 10-year old?


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> With all due respect, do you realize how there's no way to "identify" the future of a 10-year old?


If you say so.  I’m certainly not an expert, I was just trying to truthfully respond to your question.


----------



## LASTMAN14

El Clasico said:


> Got it. ...and I don't actually disagree. I was being a little tongue and cheeky.  If you review 10 years or so of my posts, I have never been a believer in the MLS model at any level. They are their own worst enemy so I throw in a cheap shot when I can. Sometimes sarcastic and sometimes not.


I agree with you. It’s funny you think in most respects I differ with you in many conversations. It in most and many I agree with you.


----------



## LASTMAN14

crush said:


> Are you still hearing my voice at night bro?  I'm sorry you hear me loud & clear and you think of me and Dre late at night on your vacation in Indian Wells.  I hope your golfing too.  Every time you use your driver, think of me, The Crush and crush the hell out of the ball for me.  When you putt, think about how my dd was treated by assholes.  After my three year investigation, she is not the only one who was lied to.  It's interesting that you and EOTL make fun of my dd.  BTW, she earn everything she got from the Doc who had the pick back in September 2017.  I think if she was able to to get the recruits phone number to the head master at the US Soccer Training Center, then she would have earned it.  I'm proud of her for standing up to those who lie, cheat, fat shame, yell, scream, manipulate and behave very, very naughty around young teenage girls.  That is 100% why the GDA failed.  GDA got what they earned and please, do not blame it on Rona.  That league's leadership was full of liars and cheaters.  Do you not see that by now?  I'm looking pass 2020 now.
> 
> View attachment 9817


Hearing your voice. HS. Great ass pull. If I did I’d respond to your crap daily. Your an an idiot we all know it. What’s funny is I can help you. But I am not. It’s a waste. This is exactly why your message is drowned out. You miss everything. I am not speaking off your DD. But you do incessantly. Stop it. We’re all done. You did not like DA because no one kissed your ass. So stop it. And yes, I told you to F’off when you attacked my kids . F’off. It’s funny everyone is trying to help you but yet you drown it out.


----------



## LASTMAN14

MacDre said:


> I agree but the MLS seems to think there are problems with college soccer.  I think if things are bad on the men’s side, then surely things are worse on the women’s side.  I’m at a loss as to how anyone can possibly suggest that women have a superior environment to men anywhere in our society whether it be soccer, Silicon Valley, or Wall Street because women ALWAYS “get the short end of the stick.”
> 
> I think you have to embrace the MLS message if you want to see development in college soccer.  Admitting that there is a problem with the system is the first step to fixing the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MLS: College Soccer is in trouble, but NCAA vote can save it
> 
> 
> In April, the NCAA will vote on expanding the college soccer season. The result will impact the relevancy of college soccer as a pathway to MLS. College so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


On the men’s is side of MLS is far worst. I am an observer of it and know products of it. They were all teammates of mine from MLS. And have watched it unfold.


----------



## LASTMAN14

crush said:


> Preach it bro!!!


Oh boy.


----------



## El Clasico

LASTMAN14 said:


> I agree with you. It’s funny you think in most respects I differ with you in many conversations. It in most and many I agree with you.


I think we share the same outlook on a lot of things. Sometimes we may disagree on the path to get there. I believed GDA was designed to fail. Boys DA is, and always has been, a failure and of course, in the debate about which club was better, I leaned towards Beach over LAG. But we both look at the same big picture with most things. And when I do comment to you or to your posts, it is not to be taken in a disrespectful way as that would not be my intention. Quite the contrary.

Here's to a brighter, better New Year!!


----------



## crush

LASTMAN14 said:


> Hearing your voice. HS. Great *ass* pull. If I did I’d respond to your *crap* daily. Your an an* idiot* we all know it. What’s funny is I can *help* you. But I am not. It’s a *waste.* This is exactly why your message is *drowned* out. You miss* everything*. I am not speaking off your* DD*. But you do *incessantly. Stop* it. We’re all done. You did not like DA because no one *kissed* your* ass*. So stop it. And yes, I told you to* F’off* when you attacked my kids *. F’off. *It’s funny everyone is trying to help you but yet you *drown* it out.


Quotes from the last man I would ever want help from.  You have some serious issues bro.  I would seek help, MOO!!

LM: "Hearing your voice, HS.  Great ass pull"
Crush: "Thank you"
LM:  "If I did I'd respond to your crap daily"
Crush:  "You must be hearing my voice lately loud & clear now"
LM: "Your an an Idiot we* ALL* know it."
Crush:  "That's not what my PMs are telling me.  Are you referring to *ALL* the voices in your head?"
LM:  "You know what's funny?"
Crush: "what is so funny Lastman?"
LM:   "I can help you"
Crush:  "Now that is funny.  Ha, ha, ha, ha.  Do you honestly think I would ask you for help?"
LM:  "But I am not.  It's a waste of time."
Crush:  "I agree"
LM:  "Stop it."  ((god, please tell him to stop it!)
Crush:  "No!!!!!"
LM:  "We're* ALL* done."
Crush:  "Good.  Tell the voices in your head to stop it!  I'm not stopping FYI!!! Tell all your voices in your head that crush is never leaving.  Go back to ignoring Crush if you keep hearing my voice.  It will be better for your high blood pressure and drinking"
LM:  "You did not like the GDA"
Crush: "That is true"
LM:  "Because no one kissed your ass"
Crush:  "No, it's because I did not kiss the ass of the Doc and kiss his ring.  My dd did not get the recruits mom's cell number and did not earn what she was working so hard to earn.  Nice try btw trying to do the old switch.  That is why my PM is mostly positive because folks who know me know if I kissed ass I would be quiet as a mouse.  I never kiss ass and trust me, I am the last man looking for someone to kiss my ass.  I do know a number of dads who did kiss some ass and it shows on their nose.
LM:  "So, stop it" ((god, please someone shut this idiot up))
Crush:  "Never will I stop.  Ignore me dude"
LM:  "I told you to Fu*k off"
Crush:  "Happy News Year"
LM:  "You attacked my kids"
Crush:  "I have no idea who you are or who your kids are.  You need serious help.  I can help you and I will if you ask me for help.  No human is a waste of time where I come from.  Come up to LA tomorrow.  Helping feed the homeless with my pal Bruno.
LM:  "Fu*k Off!!!"
Crush:  "Happy New Years"
LM:   "It's funny"
Crush:  "Ha ha ha ha"
LM:  "Everyone is trying to help you"
Crush:  "I didnt ask for help.  I came here to ask questions about that failed GDA league, why no hs soccer for public schools kids if in GDA but the rich private schools kids got a waiver.  Also touched on pay to play and pay for access to things people want.  Lastly, Doc was bad news bro.  I even made Soccerhelper avatar to help parents not fall for the lies that I fell for.  What's fuuny to me Lastman is I can really help you.  You're not a waste of a human and not an idiot.  I love you and I wish you nothing but the best for you and your kids.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> If you say so.  I’m certainly not an expert, I was just trying to truthfully respond to your question.


You did and I wish her the very best.  Just hope you're too smart for Kool Aid.


----------



## msoccerm

Scott m Shurson said:


> You did and I wish her the very best.  Just hope you're too smart for Kool Aid.


Being identified for a pro-team and for a national team are 2 different things. And yes, in other countries on the female side there will often be a very young player or 2 training with the senior team. He said she was ID'd at 10 - not on the team at 10 so why not. Most countries compete in the Womens U17 World Cup - so I can tell you for a fact that players are ID'd from 12 or 13 for player pools for those squads. They obviously don't get it right all of the time which is why you often see quite a few different players for the U20 World Cup squads.


----------



## msoccerm

sdb said:


> What kind of a contract gets signed at the U17 level? Is there compensation?What is the average player salary for a 1st team player for Xolas and the rest of the league?


Of course there would be compensation for anyone playing on the senior team - it would be at least enough to cover costs or no one would play. To not lose eligibility for college soccer - the key is to NOT have an agent and NOT actually earn a living from playing.


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> Being identified for a pro-team and for a national team are 2 different things. And yes, in other countries on the female side there will often be a very young player or 2 training with the senior team. He said she was ID'd at 10 - not on the team at 10 so why not. Most countries compete in the Womens U17 World Cup - so I can tell you for a fact that players are ID'd from 12 or 13 for player pools for those squads. They obviously don't get it right all of the time which is why you often see quite a few different players for the U20 World Cup squads.


My dd scrimmaged against OM all the time when she was 10 and she was all that, trust me.  Verbal to NC as 6th grader and then youngest pro ever.  She is one of the most gifted and skilled players her age.  My bro in Hawaii knows a dad with a very good player that is home schooled and is going pro over in Spain at 15.  Wife is from Spain.  I think it's awesome and I wish Dre's kid success.


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> Of course there would be compensation for anyone playing on the senior team - it would be at least enough to cover costs or no one would play. To not lose eligibility for college soccer - the key is to NOT have an agent and NOT actually earn a living from playing.


It would be cool if the girls could play both pro and college.  Paid to be pro and free college to help school win   That is a win and a win


----------



## msoccerm

MacDre said:


> I noticed one of the clubs defeated by LAG was OL. OL is considered one of the best and highest paying women’s team in the world. Maybe LAG beat OL & Athletico because they were better. Maybe LAG won because their focus was on winning instead of development.


American teams know how to win tournaments.  Doesn't mean those players are developing and gaining the technical and tactical skills to play anything other than mid-range Div 1 soccer when they are older. But most parents don't care. 

So good to see a parent taking a different path and doing what it takes so that their player is on the path to playing professionally. I don't know the quality of the Mexican leagues, but U17 would have to better than her own age group and the coaching would be better.


----------



## msoccerm

crush said:


> It would be cool if the girls could play both pro and college.  Paid to be pro and free college to help school win   That is a win and a win



It'd be impossible to do both at the same time. However, a lot (if not all except maybe Canada) of international players have played pro prior to coming to the US .


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> American teams know how to win tournaments.  Doesn't mean those players are developing and gaining the technical and tactical skills to play anything other than mid-range Div 1 soccer when they are older. But most parents don't care.
> 
> So good to see a parent taking a different path and doing what it takes so that their player is on the path to playing professionally. I don't know the quality of the Mexican leagues, but U17 would have to better than her own age group and the coaching would be better.


I tried to look at pro for my dd m soccer, but man, people made fun of me.  My dd had it in here at 13 but...........it's water under the bridge now.  I do applaud Dre and even Luis for promoting the option to their dd.  We need some big money players to throw some money at the pro and college game.  Help the girls.  Look at the money Congress is tossing on the trash.


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> It'd be impossible to do both at the same time. However, a lot (if not all except maybe Canada) of international players have played pro prior to coming to the US .


I kniw, but it would be cool, right?  If they found a way to pull it off for the girls.


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> To not lose eligibility for college soccer - the key is to NOT have an agent and NOT actually earn a living from playing.


Isn’t it going to be legal for college athletes to get paid soon?


			Redirect Notice


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> Isn’t it going to be legal for college athletes to get paid soon?
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


Headline is a bit misleading but I’ve been watching this topic for a while. What the CA law allows - and will model for others - is not the colleges or the NCAA paying the athletes but the athletes being allowed to be paid by others for use of their likeness - like in an endorsement.  What does that mean for players who are not Trevor Lawrence or DeVonta Smith or who play in sports other than football and men’s hoops?  It means a lot.  

it means that a player who is playing D1 soccer can market himself or herself that way in holding private trainings or associating him/herself with a club as a paid coach.  It means that a player who has played with the U18 or U20 (or whatever age) national team can join a gym and get a reduced rate in exchange for appearing in their promotional materials. If they allow direct payments from the schools or the boosters, I think it will be much less equitable in those big money sports (and for some small money sports where a specific booster happens to be a big fan of that sport).


----------



## Scott m Shurson

msoccerm said:


> Being identified for a pro-team and for a national team are 2 different things. And yes, in other countries on the female side there will often be a very young player or 2 training with the senior team. He said she was ID'd at 10 - not on the team at 10 so why not. Most countries compete in the Womens U17 World Cup - so I can tell you for a fact that players are ID'd from 12 or 13 for player pools for those squads. They obviously don't get it right all of the time which is why you often see quite a few different players for the U20 World Cup squads.


ID'd at 10, by Cal, for a national program?  No.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Isn’t it going to be legal for college athletes to get paid soon?
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


It shouldn't be.


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> It shouldn't be.


Why?


----------



## MacDre

Scott m Shurson said:


> ID'd at 10, by Cal, for a national program?  No.


At what age do you think a special soccer talent can be identified?  What qualities should this special player have?


----------



## dk_b

Scott m Shurson said:


> It shouldn't be.


you don’t think players should be able to earn money from their name and likeness? What about coaches marketing themselves as “Coach X from College Y” while they host a camp?


----------



## dk_b

dk_b said:


> you don’t think players should be able to earn money from their name and likeness? What about coaches marketing themselves as “Coach X from College Y” while they host a camp?


like Player A saying, “I was all Pac-12 playing for  [University] and have played for the US. Come to my 3-day intensive camp!”  That’s not ok to you?


----------



## Soccerfan2

msoccerm said:


> Of course there would be compensation for anyone playing on the senior team - it would be at least enough to cover costs or no one would play. To not lose eligibility for college soccer - the key is to NOT have an agent and NOT actually earn a living from playing.


Women have played “pro” in many sports for many years for less than what it costs to do so.
The average salary in Liga MX Femenil is around 3400 pesos, or about 170 USD per month. That’s up from about 150 USD per month in the initial year. It’s a little above Mexican minimum wage.


----------



## MacDre

Soccerfan2 said:


> Women have played “pro” in many sports for many years for less than what it costs to do so.
> The average salary in Liga MX Femenil is around 3400 pesos, or about 170 USD per month. That’s up from about 150 USD per month in the initial year. It’s a little above Mexican minimum wage.


True but not true.  Liga MX started as a developmental league U-24 league.  I think each team was allowed 2 players over 23 and no foreign players were allowed.

FiFA has begun their pilot for Mexico’s YNT.  The league is opening up to foreign players with LigaMX Femenil president pledging to make it the best women’s league in the world, which means they have to spend more on players.  Liga MX has 18 teams which represents an excellent opportunity for the right players.

Most of those players also received free University.


----------



## suzysoccer1

I used to be a pro. I shared a 2 bedroom with 1 window with 4 other pros. We carpooled in a 1987 Nissan Maxima everywhere, ate gas station sandwiches and trained in between going to graduate school, night jobs, day jobs, baby sitting, and whatever else kept the lights on. Agents ya right, even if you had one they took more than was worth it. Sponsors money, umm no. There’s usually1 maybe 2 females on the planet in any sport making endorsement money. The rest get gear or appearance money. And that does not buy food at Vons or the street markets. One time we did get a pair of diadora’s from a Turkish guy who “liked” one of us. Oh and no health insurance cause pro female teams don’t do that so well. So hope your parents like you and you can stay on their coverage until your 25. There’s nothing better than Scandinavian doctor visits or asking your volunteer Italian goal keeper coach how do you say pink eye in Italian. But it’s great,  it really is but it’s not for a kid. Go to fucking college. They feed you there. They have trainers and shelter and you can workout for free. Being a pro is not training part time with no risk. Pro means you have a job. That job means you have to perform or your gone. And gone means your back home is your bedroom with your mom asking you “honey what happened you were doing so good!”And your dad looking at you like your a failure. While going back to your college begging for your old trainer if they can ice your knee for you, and your college coach telling the freshman you “just got back” from being a pro. It’s great that girls now can travel and have social media, can train and talk about pro. But seriously have them go to college.


----------



## notintheface

suzysoccer1 said:


> Go to fucking college.


Yes please.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Great experience playing soccer as a female but it does not pay the bills and the lost income adds up in the end.


----------



## msoccerm

eastbaysoccer said:


> Great experience playing soccer as a female but it does not pay the bills and the lost income adds up in the end.


This simply is not 100% true and times have possibly changed since suzysoccer1 played pro. It sounds like she was just an above average player or her experience would have been better. A lot of players overseas are playing and getting a degree. There are also a lot of girls who played in college got their degree who are making the same amount of money as a pro because they can't find a decent paying job because they couldn't do internships while at university.

To play for ones country is such an honour. I guess the difference is that it is near impossible in the USA - where in other countries its quite achievable.


----------



## crush

msoccerm said:


> This simply is not 100% true and times have possibly changed since suzysoccer1 played pro. It sounds like she was just an above average player or her experience would have been better. A lot of players overseas are playing and getting a degree. There are also a lot of girls who played in college got their degree who are making the same amount of money as a pro because they can't find a decent paying job because they couldn't do internships while at university.
> 
> To play for ones country is such an honour. I guess the difference is that it is near impossible in the USA - where in other countries its quite achievable.


I had friend in grade school tell all of us that he would become a Pro Surfer.  I thought it was awesome goal.  Surf for a living, what's not to like about that.  The kids thought it was cool but the parents all said, "No one can make a living surfing and you will just become a hippie smoking hippie lettuce."  No joke.  So many thought it was pie in the sky.  I didnt and never did Mike Parsons.  Great job bro not listening to all the nay sayers.  Live life to the full.  Watch out for the cheaters and snakes and all will be good.  Cool thing about surfing, you can;t cheat unless your Hollywood making a surf movie.  This guy made a living surfing and to my knowledge was not a hippie and did not do drugs.  Keep your dreams alive!!!  Plus he was 51 on this wave.


----------



## MacDre

msoccerm said:


> This simply is not 100% true and times have possibly changed since suzysoccer1 played pro. It sounds like she was just an above average player or her experience would have been better. A lot of players overseas are playing and getting a degree. There are also a lot of girls who played in college got their degree who are making the same amount of money as a pro because they can't find a decent paying job because they couldn't do internships while at university.
> 
> To play for ones country is such an honour. I guess the difference is that it is near impossible in the USA - where in other countries its quite achievable.


Agreed.  My players experience doesn’t resemble Suzy’s.  I also want to emphasize that all of my players coaches in Mexico stress the importance of a good education.  Club Tijuana has coddled my players group with mandatory after practice meetings with sports psychologist and no pressure with an emphasis on fun.  

I think Mexico will have the best women’s league in the world because the cost of living is so low.  For example, I have a friend that’s a medical doctor in TJ and he makes about $1,000 per month and enjoys an upper middle class lifestyle.  A job that pays 100 bucks per week is a good job in Mexico.  So, if a college graduate can get a $20,000 contact playing in Guadalajara, Mexico City, Monterrey, TJ, it’s the equivalent of getting 100-150k to play in the NWSL in places like LA, Washington DC, or New York.  I think Liga MX will be much more attractive overall than going to Europe when you consider weather, food, and quality of living.

My players coach from Baja California told her that if she went with the Rayados she would also have a scholarship to attend Tec de Monterrey.  So, for players in Texas, Arizona, California, Nevada, Washington, & Oregon that are YNT quality and considering P5 Universities I think it’s irresponsible to not consider Liga MX teams at this point.  I’m kinda a school snob and portability of a degree is important to me so Tec de Monterrey is the only University in Mexico that my family has seriously considered.  There are other good universities in Mexico but the degrees are not very portable.  Club Tijuana players CAN go to college in San Diego.  Rayados and Tigres players CAN go to college in Texas.

I also understand not many families are gonna move to the interior of Mexico to pursue soccer dreams; however, some players will benefit greatly even if it’s just for cultural immersion.  I think players that are considering the NWSL draft will find Liga MX Femenil superior in most aspects and benefit the most from Liga MX Femenil opening up to foreign talent.

I attended the world cup in France last year and I expected the International level of play to be higher that what I see in Mexico.  It’s not.  I specifically went to see Tobin Heath and was disappointed.  Maybe she had a bad tournament.  Also keep in mind that my players team regularly scrimmages against boys teams in preparation for competition so the level of play is very high.


----------



## gkrent

suzysoccer1 said:


> I used to be a pro. I shared a 2 bedroom with 1 window with 4 other pros. We carpooled in a 1987 Nissan Maxima everywhere, ate gas station sandwiches and trained in between going to graduate school, night jobs, day jobs, baby sitting, and whatever else kept the lights on. Agents ya right, even if you had one they took more than was worth it. Sponsors money, umm no. There’s usually1 maybe 2 females on the planet in any sport making endorsement money. The rest get gear or appearance money. And that does not buy food at Vons or the street markets. One time we did get a pair of diadora’s from a Turkish guy who “liked” one of us. Oh and no health insurance cause pro female teams don’t do that so well. So hope your parents like you and you can stay on their coverage until your 25. There’s nothing better than Scandinavian doctor visits or asking your volunteer Italian goal keeper coach how do you say pink eye in Italian. But it’s great,  it really is but it’s not for a kid. Go to fucking college. They feed you there. They have trainers and shelter and you can workout for free. Being a pro is not training part time with no risk. Pro means you have a job. That job means you have to perform or your gone. And gone means your back home is your bedroom with your mom asking you “honey what happened you were doing so good!”And your dad looking at you like your a failure. While going back to your college begging for your old trainer if they can ice your knee for you, and your college coach telling the freshman you “just got back” from being a pro. It’s great that girls now can travel and have social media, can train and talk about pro. But seriously have them go to college.


This is SO ACCURATE


----------



## Scott m Shurson

dk_b said:


> you don’t think players should be able to earn money from their name and likeness? What about coaches marketing themselves as “Coach X from College Y” while they host a camp?


I really don't think they should be paid.  I think they get a lot of perks already.  Once they're paid, they're professionals and corruption grows worse than it already is.  I'm all for giving them swag, free meal cards, special access to training facilities, tutoring, class selection, preferential housing, etc.

Isn't that enough?  Coaches are paid professionals... not amateur, college athletes.


----------



## dk_b

Scott m Shurson said:


> I really don't think they should be paid.  I think they get a lot of perks already.  Once they're paid, they're professionals and corruption grows worse than it already is.  I'm all for giving them swag, free meal cards, special access to training facilities, tutoring, class selection, preferential housing, etc.
> 
> Isn't that enough?  Coaches are paid professionals... not amateur, college athletes.


To me, it’s not a question about whether it is ”enough” but whether it complies with general concepts of fairness and whether it can be exploited. I think cash payments from the school or boosters akin to salaries or bonuses are more ripe for exploitation while I think a player using her status as a college athlete to market herself (or allow herself to be marketed) puts more of the control on the athlete (I recognize that both the payments can be done above board and “fair” if a pool were equally spread across schools and that the endorsement part can also be exploitive so I am writing in generalities). I have zero issue w/a local batting cage showing players who are playing in college in exchange for off-season discounts (or free use) to the player nor do I have an issue with a player returning to her community and holding 1-on-1 training sessions while marketing her experience as a high level college athlete.  That does not deprive anyone but permits players to use their skills in a marketable way, just as college age math tutors, music teachers and artists might do (nobody is prohibiting the student on a music scholarship from earning $ in paid music gigs or by giving private lessons and that same student may get free access - perhaps even unregulated (unlike an athlete) - to rehearsal rooms, sound production equipment, etc.).

Coaches are paid professionals, no question, and would I say they can’t slap their names on a sports camp and generate income that way?  I would not. But I can’t see how allowing the student athletes to similarly earn money (albeit a pittance, relative to the coaches) interferes with any core mission of college athletics, spirit of amateurism, etc.


----------



## suzysoccer1

msoccerm said:


> This simply is not 100% true and times have possibly changed since suzysoccer1 played pro. It sounds like she was just an above average player or her experience would have been better. A lot of players overseas are playing and getting a degree. There are also a lot of girls who played in college got their degree who are making the same amount of money as a pro because they can't find a decent paying job because they couldn't do internships while at university.
> 
> To play for ones country is such an honour. I guess the difference is that it is near impossible in the USA - where in other countries its quite achievable.
> [/QUOTE
> My experience was one I would never change. Best time of my life. I’ve been called lots of things and I’m sure average was one of them.  I had my turn at playing this game and now I can see my kids have even more of a chance then I did. I want more for them not less. That said there are realities that are being missed in this discussion about what playing pro truely is. ALL pros work or go to school while playing. This has been true and will always be true. You have to go eat. Now what kinda of work depends upon where you fall on the soccer food chain and how much you get from your parents. Firstly identity what PRO is. I’m not talking about teenagers training with first division teams on Thursday’s. For right now no female can turn pro AND play in a game in this country until 18. Also with fifa article 19 rules it’s very hard to play in another country (without passport or citizenship). Train yes maybe, but again most legit foreign clubs require a lot before you get on their field. Parents cost here is high. But if you can do it than great.
> So for after college or 18 yrs, First thing you have to get there. And average don’t get you there. Your kid is taking away a seasoned adult women’s job. Your  kid needs to be scary ass next level good. Next you have to live there and pay bills, then you have to stay there (hardest part) stay healthy and contribute so you can get to another league when this one is finished. Example Scandinavia to Australia or Italy to America. So that you can piece together enough money to survive. Also getting signed by a club is a nightmare. Not even getting into players rights, who owns them, agents, coaches, transfer fees, etc.  Many times the college girls playing after college play for about 3-4 seasons. Stopping around age 26,27. Then do private trainings, start coaching, while beginning their new careers in whatever field they have chosen. Like I said I loved this life, it’s fantastic. But there’s a difference to what you think you know or what you’ve over heard and what it is for the player. And not much has changed.
> 
> And also TOBIN HEATH DOES NOT SUCK. We should all pray for “off” games like hers for our kids.


----------



## MacDre

Living in a border region is an exception to the FIFA rule you just cited so it won’t be a burden for folks living in parts of California and Texas because they have the option of playing in both countries.  For the folks that don’t live in the border area language/cultural immersion is a legitimate reason to move to Mexico so long as it’s the primary reason for moving and not soccer.  

For a certain player, playing in Mexico while getting a degree is an alternative to D1 soccer.  If most D1 soccer players are not on an athletic scholarship, then why would it be a problem to attend college in Texas on a academic scholarship while training and playing with Tigres or Rayados?  Why couldn’t a player enroll online at Arizona State University and play for Club America in Mexico City instead of ASU soccer?

I am sure that Tobin Heath doesn’t suck.  However, her performance in Lyon during the World Cup did not live up to the hype.  I was impressed with Rose Lavelle and Kadi Diani from France.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

dk_b said:


> To me, it’s not a question about whether it is ”enough” but whether it complies with general concepts of fairness and whether it can be exploited. I think cash payments from the school or boosters akin to salaries or bonuses are more ripe for exploitation while I think a player using her status as a college athlete to market herself (or allow herself to be marketed) puts more of the control on the athlete (I recognize that both the payments can be done above board and “fair” if a pool were equally spread across schools and that the endorsement part can also be exploitive so I am writing in generalities). I have zero issue w/a local batting cage showing players who are playing in college in exchange for off-season discounts (or free use) to the player nor do I have an issue with a player returning to her community and holding 1-on-1 training sessions while marketing her experience as a high level college athlete.  That does not deprive anyone but permits players to use their skills in a marketable way, just as college age math tutors, music teachers and artists might do (nobody is prohibiting the student on a music scholarship from earning $ in paid music gigs or by giving private lessons and that same student may get free access - perhaps even unregulated (unlike an athlete) - to rehearsal rooms, sound production equipment, etc.).
> 
> Coaches are paid professionals, no question, and would I say they can’t slap their names on a sports camp and generate income that way?  I would not. But I can’t see how allowing the student athletes to similarly earn money (albeit a pittance, relative to the coaches) interferes with any core mission of college athletics, spirit of amateurism, etc.


I usually agree with everything you post in this general area but not here.  I think it's a slippery slope that cannot be contained once you start talking about monetary opportunity.  Too difficult to determine how much, for whom, etc.  And who is really earning that money?  Is it Trevor Lawrence or an offensive guard that makes money for Clemson?  And what percentage?  Should Trevor and the backup kicker receive the same amount?  Should Trevor earn the same as a woman on the gymnastics team?

That said, I do think, based on how much money athletes earn a program, they should be entitled to some goodies that compensate for not really being able to work a traditional job.  Maybe a small stipend but that's it.  They're already getting so much.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> Living in a border region is an exception to the FIFA rule you just cited so it won’t be a burden for folks living in parts of California and Texas because they have the option of playing in both countries.  For the folks that don’t live in the border area language/cultural immersion is a legitimate reason to move to Mexico so long as it’s the primary reason for moving and not soccer.
> 
> For a certain player, playing in Mexico while getting a degree is an alternative to D1 soccer.  If most D1 soccer players are not on an athletic scholarship, then why would it be a problem to attend college in Texas on a academic scholarship while training and playing with Tigres or Rayados?  Why couldn’t a player enroll online at Arizona State University and play for Club America in Mexico City instead of ASU soccer?
> 
> I am sure that Tobin Heath doesn’t suck.  However, her performance in Lyon during the World Cup did not live up to the hype.  I was impressed with Rose Lavelle and Kadi Diani from France.


Tobin Heath is starting to suck.  Same with Rapinoe.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> Living in a border region is an exception to the FIFA rule you just cited so it won’t be a burden for folks living in parts of California and Texas because they have the option of playing in both countries.  For the folks that don’t live in the border area language/cultural immersion is a legitimate reason to move to Mexico so long as it’s the primary reason for moving and not soccer.
> 
> For a certain player, playing in Mexico while getting a degree is an alternative to D1 soccer.  If most D1 soccer players are not on an athletic scholarship, then why would it be a problem to attend college in Texas on a academic scholarship while training and playing with Tigres or Rayados?  Why couldn’t a player enroll online at Arizona State University and play for Club America in Mexico City instead of ASU soccer?
> 
> I am sure that Tobin Heath doesn’t suck.  However, her performance in Lyon during the World Cup did not live up to the hype.  I was impressed with Rose Lavelle and Kadi Diani from France.


I think I read that as a minor, to play in Mexico, you would have to be within 30 miles of the US border and the foreign club also has to be within 30 miles of the border. Is that right?


----------



## dk_b

Scott m Shurson said:


> I usually agree with everything you post in this general area but not here.  I think it's a slippery slope that cannot be contained once you start talking about monetary opportunity.  Too difficult to determine how much, for whom, etc.  And who is really earning that money?  Is it Trevor Lawrence or an offensive guard that makes money for Clemson?  And what percentage?  Should Trevor and the backup kicker receive the same amount?  Should Trevor earn the same as a woman on the gymnastics team?
> 
> That said, I do think, based on how much money athletes earn a program, they should be entitled to some goodies that compensate for not really being able to work a traditional job.  Maybe a small stipend but that's it.  They're already getting so much.


You internet like I do.  When you disagree and you don’t call me names and insult my intelligence, how am I supposed to react?  

I think you make a lot of good points and I long for a day to discuss topics like this in person, over a beverage, while watching some live sports in front of us.


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> I think I read that as a minor, to play in Mexico, you would have to be within 30 miles of the US border and the foreign club also has to be within 30 miles of the border. Is that right?


I thought it was 50 but I may be confusing the FIFA rule with my auto insurance coverage.

But also, I’m taking the position that it doesn’t matter.  The way I read FIFA rule 19 is that it was enacted to stop the trafficking of kids.

I think to argue Rule 19 applies to affluent kids from OC playing in TJ misconstrues the intent of the rule and is unethical.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

dk_b said:


> You internet like I do.  When you disagree and you don’t call me names and insult my intelligence, how am I supposed to react?
> 
> I think you make a lot of good points and I long for a day to discuss topics like this in person, over a beverage, while watching some live sports in front of us.


Well, from what I gather, your kid is in the mix and we aren't there yet.  Hopefully one day.  I think I maybe romanticize college sports too much because I hate to think about how corrupt it really can be.  Here's to that day.


----------



## dk_b

Scott m Shurson said:


> Well, from what I gather, your kid is in the mix and we aren't there yet.  Hopefully one day.  I think I maybe romanticize college sports too much because I hate to think about how corrupt it really can be.  Here's to that day.


Let’s hope that day is soon for all of us.  Cheers to a robust 2021, even if it is packed into the 2d 6 months.


----------



## sdb

MacDre said:


> I thought it was 50 but I may be confusing the FIFA rule with my auto insurance coverage.
> 
> But also, I’m taking the position that it doesn’t matter.  The way I read FIFA rule 19 is that it was enacted to stop the trafficking of kids.
> 
> I think to argue Rule 19 applies to affluent kids from OC playing in TJ misconstrues the intent of the rule and is unethical.


50km. I was looking at US Soccer:

*Minors International Clearance Process*

Any player under the age of 18 who is not eligible for the Prior to 10 clearance method will be required to go through the FIFA Transfer Matching System (TMS) in order to obtain their international transfer clearance.

FIFA's Regulations state that international transfers of players are only permitted if the player is over the age of 18. However, there are three exceptions to the rule:


The player's parents move to the country in which the new club is located for reasons not linked to soccer.
The transfer takes place within the territory of the European Union.
The player lives outside the country, but no further than 50km from a national border. In addition, the club with which the player wishes to be registered in the neighboring association is also within 50km of that border.
U.S. Soccer can use exceptions No. 1 and No. 3, as the second exception deals only with players in Europe.  The documentation listed below is required in order to prove a minor player qualifies for this process.


----------



## MacDre

sdb said:


> 50km. I was looking at US Soccer:
> 
> *Minors International Clearance Process*
> 
> Any player under the age of 18 who is not eligible for the Prior to 10 clearance method will be required to go through the FIFA Transfer Matching System (TMS) in order to obtain their international transfer clearance.
> 
> FIFA's Regulations state that international transfers of players are only permitted if the player is over the age of 18. However, there are three exceptions to the rule:
> 
> 
> The player's parents move to the country in which the new club is located for reasons not linked to soccer.
> The transfer takes place within the territory of the European Union.
> The player lives outside the country, but no further than 50km from a national border. In addition, the club with which the player wishes to be registered in the neighboring association is also within 50km of that border.
> U.S. Soccer can use exceptions No. 1 and No. 3, as the second exception deals only with players in Europe.  The documentation listed below is required in order to prove a minor player qualifies for this process.


Interesting.  I think this rule is kind of ambiguous.  One way of reading the rule is that anyone living anywhere in California, Arizona or Texas within 50 km of the border could play for Club Tijuana because it’s also within 50km of the border.  The rule doesn’t say “border crossing” and the US/Mexico border is long.

I am not sure how far Rayados and Tigres are from the border but it doesn’t look too  bad for Club Tijuana.

I also don’t think families from OC will mind moving to Polanco (Mexico City) for language immersion and hooking up with Club America under exception #1 while they’re in the area.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MacDre said:


> Why?


College athletes should be paid.  A fr


msoccerm said:


> This simply is not 100% true and times have possibly changed since suzysoccer1 played pro. It sounds like she was just an above average player or her experience would have been better. A lot of players overseas are playing and getting a degree. There are also a lot of girls who played in college got their degree who are making the same amount of money as a pro because they can't find a decent paying job because they couldn't do internships while at university.
> 
> To play for ones country is such an honour. I guess the difference is that it is near impossible in the USA - where in other countries its quite achievable.


The NWSL league maximum salary for 2020 has jumped to *$50,000* and the league minimum salary has increased to $20,000. The 2019 season saw a maximum salary cap of *$46,200* and a minimum of *$16,538.  *

working at amazon is $15 per hour or $31,200 annualized.

20,000 broken down is $9.62 per hour. which is less than the $12 minimum wage in CA


----------



## MacDre

MacDre said:


> Interesting.  I think this rule is kind of ambiguous.  One way of reading the rule is that anyone living anywhere in California, Arizona or Texas within 50 km of the border could play for Club Tijuana because it’s also within 50km of the border.  The rule doesn’t say “border crossing” and the US/Mexico border is long.
> 
> I am not sure how far Rayados and Tigres are from the border but it doesn’t look too  bad for Club Tijuana.
> 
> I also don’t think families from OC will mind moving to Polanco (Mexico City) for language immersion and hooking up with Club America under exception #1 while they’re in the area.


I think it’s also reasonable to count the 50 km from San Clemente Border Station instead of San Ysidro or Otay Mesa since DHS and CBP consider the entire region to be the border and their jurisdiction.


----------



## Soccer43

[QUOTE="eastbaysoccer, post: 376177,

The NWSL league maximum salary for 2020 has jumped to *$50,000* and the league minimum salary has increased to $20,000. The 2019 season saw a maximum salary cap of *$46,200* and a minimum of *$16,538.  *

working at amazon is $15 per hour or $31,200 annualized.

20,000 broken down is $9.62 per hour. which is less than the $12 minimum wage in CA
[/QUOTE]

this is why the whole debate on girls going pro at an early age goes no where for me.  When my DD was an infant in my arms I did not look lovingly at her and say, “my dream for you is lot go pro at 18 and makeless than minimum wage “. Maybe the salaries are better overseas but being excited for the NWSL draft is more like having a fun hobby that pays you a small amount  for a few years and then you go get a real career.


----------



## MacDre

Soccer43 said:


> [QUOTE="eastbaysoccer, post: 376177,
> 
> The NWSL league maximum salary for 2020 has jumped to *$50,000* and the league minimum salary has increased to $20,000. The 2019 season saw a maximum salary cap of *$46,200* and a minimum of *$16,538.  *
> 
> working at amazon is $15 per hour or $31,200 annualized.
> 
> 20,000 broken down is $9.62 per hour. which is less than the $12 minimum wage in CA


this is why the whole debate on girls going pro at an early age goes no where for me.  When my DD was an infant in my arms I did not look lovingly at her and say, “my dream for you is lot go pro at 18 and makeless than minimum wage “. Maybe the salaries are better overseas but being excited for the NWSL draft is more like having a fun hobby that pays you a small amount  for a few years and then you go get a real career.
[/QUOTE]
I think I agree with you for the most part because I think the ladies need to get paid better.  But I also think the NWSL compensation is better than what has been stated.

What other careers can a 18-22 year old began that pay more than $20,000, w/free housing, free food, & free car (negotiable), for working 8 months annually (April-November)?


----------



## crush

Soccer43 said:


> [QUOTE="eastbaysoccer, post: 376177,
> 
> The NWSL league maximum salary for 2020 has jumped to *$50,000* and the league minimum salary has increased to $20,000. The 2019 season saw a maximum salary cap of *$46,200* and a minimum of *$16,538.  *
> 
> working at amazon is $15 per hour or $31,200 annualized.
> 
> 20,000 broken down is $9.62 per hour. which is less than the $12 minimum wage in CA


*this is why the whole debate on girls going pro at an early age goes no where for me.*  When my DD was an infant in my arms I did not look lovingly at her and say, “*my dream* for you is lot go pro at 18 and makeless than minimum wage “. Maybe the salaries are better overseas but being excited for the NWSL draft is more like having a fun hobby that pays you a small amount  for a few years and then you go get a real career.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, we know 43.  Most parents dreams are for their kids to go to college, not pro of anything.  That's why youth soccer is popular.  We should be asking our kids want their dreams are for themselves, not what dads dreams are.  I never dreamed of my dd being a pro anything.  I dream whatever she does she has fun and loves what she's doing.


----------



## Soccer43

Housing has to be provided but what type of housing is not clear.  I have heard of players living 4 to an apartment or living with host families.  It is not like they give you rent $ to go get your own place.  And food does not seem to be included and not necessarily a car is provided.  I don’t have personal knowledge, just what I read online so would be curious to hear from an actual player on a current NWSL team about the financial realities.


----------



## tjinaz

Soccer43 said:


> Housing has to be provided but what type of housing is not clear.  I have heard of players living 4 to an apartment or living with host families.  It is not like they give you rent $ to go get your own place.  And food does not seem to be included and not necessarily a car is provided.  I don’t have personal knowledge, just what I read online so would be curious to hear from an actual player on a current NWSL team about the financial realities.


And the sad thing is the teams still lose money.  At what point do you just say without some sort of subsidy this league folds like a cheap suit.  I understand equal opportunity and all but eventually the league has to stand or fall on its own merits.

Womens soccer far from equal


----------



## outside!

tjinaz said:


> And the sad thing is the teams still lose money.  At what point do you just say without some sort of subsidy this league folds like a cheap suit.  I understand equal opportunity and all but eventually the league has to stand or fall on its own merits.
> 
> Womens soccer far from equal


Maybe when men's professional sports are entirely self supporting without any taxpayer dollars for stadiums and have paid back with interest all of the public money they have received?


----------



## gkrent

Soccer43 said:


> Housing has to be provided but what type of housing is not clear.  I have heard of players living 4 to an apartment or living with host families.  It is not like they give you rent $ to go get your own place.  And food does not seem to be included and not necessarily a car is provided.  I don’t have personal knowledge, just what I read online so would be curious to hear from an actual player on a current NWSL team about the financial realities.


The women I know that are 1st/2nd year in NWSL *need* part time jobs.  Sometimes living with roommates or host families.


----------



## msoccerm

Soccer43 said:


> When my DD was an infant in my arms I did not look lovingly at her and say, “my dream for you is lot go pro at 18 and makeless than minimum wage “.


But what if your kid was really good and loved playing and agents were contacting her or she was getting invites to the U19 national team - would you say to her "no". Or would you support her dreams and let her gain invaluable life experience. I think the difference is that this very rarely happens in the US, but it happens all over the world because players can start playing professionally at 15 or 16.

I don't care if my daughter starts her 9-5 career at 30 instead of 22.


----------



## dad4

outside! said:


> Maybe when men's professional sports are entirely self supporting without any taxpayer dollars for stadiums and have paid back with interest all of the public money they have received?


Men’s sports get those stadium deals because they have the support of millions of people.

Other than a few individual sports, women’s sports do not have the fan base.  Sorry.

Buy some WPSL or NWSL tickets.  Grab a beer and some grub while you watch the game.  Support your team.

But don't ask people to pretend that Marta has more fans than Messi.  Maybe she should, but that's another question.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Grab a beer and some grub while you watch the game.  *Support your team.*


Club Tijuana!  The only professional women’s futbol club in California.


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> Club Tijuana!  The only professional women’s futbol club in California.


Until Angel FC takes the field in 2022


----------



## MacDre

Kicker4Life said:


> Until Angel FC takes the field in 2022


Sounds like a rivalry in the making.  Any word about which stadium they’re going to play at yet?


----------



## Kicker4Life

MacDre said:


> Sounds like a rivalry in the making.  Any word about which stadium they’re going to play at yet?


The Banc....They will share with LAFC


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gkrent said:


> The women I know that are 1st/2nd year in NWSL *need* part time jobs.  Sometimes living with roommates or host families.


does the NWSL give health benefits?  401K, Dental, vision, etc.  Factor that in and that's another 20k.  
Unless you are Marta or another big name player that can secure endorsements it's NOT worth it financially.

IMO if you play pro, it's a 1-2 year career overseas so you can travel and come back to USA.


----------



## dk_b

eastbaysoccer said:


> does the NWSL give health benefits?  401K, Dental, vision, etc.  Factor that in and that's another 20k.
> Unless you are Marta or another big name player that can secure endorsements it's NOT worth it financially.
> 
> IMO if you play pro, it's a 1-2 year career overseas so you can travel and come back to USA.


If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.

Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?

I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


----------



## Soccerfan2

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.
> 
> Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?
> 
> I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


Great perspective and “after college” are key words!


----------



## gotothebushes

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.
> 
> Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?
> 
> I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


Well said!


----------



## Kicker4Life

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.
> 
> Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?
> 
> I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


100%.....


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Reuters) - Spain's top-flight women footballers have signed their first collective agreement on pay and conditions, breaking an impasse with sporting authorities which led to a strike last November.


The agreement, which was signed on Tuesday but only made public on Wednesday, guarantees Primera Division players a minimum salary of 16,000 euros ($17,264.00) per year as well as paid holiday and maternity leave among other benefits.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

1-2 years overseas and would be an experience.


----------



## MMMM

MacDre said:


> At what age do you think a special soccer talent can be identified?  What qualities should this special player have?


Skills plus Drive can be identified pretty early.  I saw it in a small way with my kids — older had the athletic skills, loved to play, but wasn’t obsessed with it the way the younger was. That obsession where the kid chooses to spend free time taking 500 free throws in the driveway or hitting 1000 one-touch ricochets off a wall instead of anything else is essential, in addition to raw talent. Raw talent falls by the wayside *all the time* if that drive isn’t also there. So I’d say by age 10 or 11 you know if a kid has that combo to put him/her in the top 10% of players. Who from the top 10% then goes on to college scholarships/pros/national teams is more of a crapshoot depending on training, injury, money, opportunity, etc.


----------



## crush

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it.


If my kid is in a position to play pro before college or in lieu of going to school, I will encourage it.  If my dd quits soccer altogether because men are selfish, then I will understand.  Share the soccer loot with the woman that you need in order to survive.


tjinaz said:


> And the* sad thing is the teams still lose money*.  At what point do you just say without some sort of subsidy this league folds like a cheap suit.  I understand equal opportunity and all but eventually the league has to stand or fall on its own merits.
> 
> Womens soccer far from equal


Without Awoman, we have no man, Amen men?  Now, mommy raised all these stud boys who are now pro soccer men making all the money.  Some men say woman need to stay in da house.  Some men say they need to go college.  Some men say they need to do this and that.  This man says pay the woman who helped all the boys make millions and billions a living wage in soccer.  Find the money, trust me someone has way too much and their not sharing with the girls, who we all need to make this planet awesome and growing with more boys & girls


----------



## crush

gkrent said:


> The women I know that are 1st/2nd year in NWSL *need* *part time jobs*.  Sometimes living with roommates or host families.


So sad!!!


----------



## Soccer43

msoccerm said:


> But what if your kid was really good and loved playing and agents were contacting her or she was getting invites to the U19 national team - would you say to her "no". Or would you support her dreams and let her gain invaluable life experience. I think the difference is that this very rarely happens in the US, but it happens all over the world because players can start playing professionally at 15 or 16.
> 
> I don't care if my daughter starts her 9-5 career at 30 instead of 22.


I fully support any player that wants to play pro.  My objection is to the excitement and fervor of discussing the idea of your 12 year old, 13 year old, or 15 year old getting a professional contract and that being the big dream.  OM signed a promotional contract a couple years ago and beside that initial influx of cash what is she doing?  Before the DA closed up shop she was just playing on a DA team like the rest of players that had more options to choose from for their futures.   Does OM have a pro contract overseas?  Did she even play on any WPSL teams the past year or two?  She is doing the same things she could have done without signing that contract and closing off her options for a more open future.  When parents get on this forum and get all serious about going pro at a young age I always go back to the fact that the payout is not even a fraction of professional men's sports.  So it is a nice paid hobby to have for a few years.  It is not a path that should close out other opportunities. 

College is an important experience for a lot of people.  It isn't for everyone but if you are interested in learning and growing in that way it creates so many opportunities to experience.  It also provides opportunities way down the road that you didn't anticipate when you were 18 years old.    The only big money in professional soccer is if you also are on the USWNT roster and have endorsements.  There are only a handful of players across the country that meet this criterion.  I suspect that even many of those that are on the USWNT roster don't have substantive endorsement deals.  I think it is very cool to be able to travel and play soccer while you are paid to do that - that is an amazing experience for a young adult.  But think it through all the way till your player is mid-life.  What are her goals long term?  Where does she see herself when she is 40, 50?  That is an impossible question to ask an 18 year old so that is why parents have to be a mature voice or reason to bounce those ideas around.  If that is your dream and your player's dream then I am all in support of it - just don't fool yourself or your player about the realities as a female professional athlete.  It isn't the same as it is for male athletes and don't try to convince yourself about some fantasy.  As a previous poster said above, players in the NWSL "need" part time jobs to make it work financially.  Also, about the Youth national team invites - do your research on how many hundreds of players have gotten those invites and how many actually end up on the full team or playing professionally.  I know players that have even quit soccer all together that have had those invites and/or gotten full scholarships only to quit the sport because they just lost the interest or drive at a certain point.


----------



## crush

Soccer43 said:


> I fully support any player that wants to play pro.  *My objection* is to the excitement and fervor of discussing the idea of your 12 year old, 13 year old, or 15 year old *getting a professional contract and that being the big dream*.  OM signed a promotional contract a couple years ago and beside that initial influx of cash what is she doing?  Before the DA closed up shop she was just playing on a DA team like the rest of players that had more options to choose from for their futures.   Does OM have a pro contract overseas?  Did she even play on any WPSL teams the past year or two?  She is doing the same things she could have done without signing that contract and closing off her options for a more open future.  When parents get on this forum and get all serious about going pro at a young age I always go back to the fact that the payout is not even a fraction of professional men's sports.  So it is a nice paid hobby to have for a few years.  It is not a path that should close out other opportunities.
> 
> *College is an important experience for a lot of people.  *


Big pipe dream, right 43 lol.  Dream the dreams bro and let the dreamers dream whatever dreams they want for their life.  OM has worked harder then anyone I know that my dd played against and saw her hard work first hand.  She has a dream and Nike is helping her with that dream.  She has all the skills one needs to go to the next level.  Can she hang athletically and mentally is going to be the question?  I wish her nothing but the best and I applaud her for going all in for soccer.  I can tell you the little that I do know about her is she is 100% committed to be the best she can be.  Her parents have the means to support that dream and she even earned a pro contract at 13 years old and walked away from college game.


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.
> 
> Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?
> 
> I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


I have attached pictures of Beastmode telling my kid precisely what you have stated; lol of course he used more colorful language.  He actively discourages her participation in professional sports.  When she was accepted to Fuerzas Basicas he didn’t call to congratulate her however, when he heard that she made straight A’s he called to congratulate her and remind her to enroll in Fam 1st Foundation architecture program this upcoming summer.  He tells her that he’s dumb and needs her to manage his money.

I have one major concern with your timeline and I would love to hear everyone’s feedback.  I think the timeline that you laid out is great for men but could be problematic for women.  By time I finished military service, undergrad, & grad school I was almost 30 and life was great.  My female friends were all of a sudden stressed out because their “clock was ticking” and they were starting a new career wanting to have kids and not get put on the “mommy track.”

For me, a major benefit for women going pro early is having more time to work around getting put on the mommy track.

Thoughts?


----------



## crush

My thoughts are, wow!!!  This is so cool and thanks for sharing.  Great advice.  My advice to everyone is do what you love and have fun


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> I have attached pictures of Beastmode telling my kid precisely what you have stated; lol of course he used more colorful language.  He actively discourages her participation in professional sports.  When she was accepted to Fuerzas Basicas he didn’t call to congratulate her however, when he heard that she made straight A’s he called to congratulate her and remind her to enroll in Fam 1st Foundation architecture program this upcoming summer.  He tells her that he’s dumb and needs her to manage his money.
> 
> I have one major concern with your timeline and I would love to hear everyone’s feedback.  I think the timeline that you laid out is great for men but could be problematic for women.  By time I finished military service, undergrad, & grad school I was almost 30 and life was great.  My female friends were all of a sudden stressed out because their “clock was ticking” and they were starting a new career wanting to have kids and not get put on the “mommy track.”
> 
> For me, a major benefit for women going pro early is having more time to work around getting put on the mommy track.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> View attachment 9857
> View attachment 9858


I love Marshawn. My older kid (and my younger ones when there is a HS season) played Tech in non-league games and the ones at their house always made me think of that guy (and Rickey, of course).

Motherhood for college-educated women is starting later on average.  I am not too worried about that w/r/t my own daughters.  They are surrounded by professional women - attorneys, Drs, scientists - and they know that it can be done as a parent but the challenge is real.

I did make a passing reference to the social situation of a young player among adult pros but I want to return to it.  My kids are 4 years apart - my oldest (22), next (18) and next (14, 14).  My younger daughters idolize their older sister and I love it when they are together (but for Covid, I'd have let them head to campus to hang with big sis as I did as a HS freshman when my next closest sibling was a frosh at UCSB). But there are conversations of my 18yo that I have overheard and I can remember being 18 myself and it is clear that my 14yos are NOT their sister's peers (my 18yo can hang w/her older brother b/c the gap has closed). A 15yo hanging w/25yos?  25yos talking about social things that 25yos talk about?  Or do they temper their conversation around "the kid"?  Should they have to at that stage in life?  Does that isolate the younger player or make her grow up faster in areas that are not "on the pitch"?  I raised this way back when during a lengthy discussion on OM.  

Look . . . if the path was so unique that turning pro provided an opportunity that might not otherwise be there (as in the case w/some of the teenage boys who stand to make million$$$), I'd counsel a different way.  But I don't think that's the case as yet.  It may change some day and there are even exceptions today (Horan's success v Pugh's path or Tierna going pro and thus availing herself of a World Cup bonus that she may not get in the future (since our senior team is so difficult to make and b/c injury and life can also get in the way).

I'm feel fortunate - and I think my daughter IS fortunate - that when she has to make that decision (if one is to be made), she will have plenty of people to consult with b/c of her youth, collegiate and YNT/WNT experience.  There will be high end players, middle of the road players and those who clearly don't aspire for WC glory but are planning on playing for a year or two before grad school (in addition to coaches she has had and others w/whom she's developed relationships who can offer unbiased advice). And if my younger 2 get there, their sister will be their best advisor.  Selfishly, I do hope she loves the game, has great success and is able to play at the next level.  Why selfish? B/c how many people get to watch their children perform in their profession?  I can say that in all the years that my parents were alive when I was in my profession (well, my mom died not long after I started practicing, my dad in the last couple of years), they never ONCE sat in my office and watched my draft or review a contract.

Sorry for the very long-winded replies.  This is the stuff that I miss discussing w/folks in person over coffee or a beer, around a fire at a hotel during a tournament or a poke bowl at some strip all.


----------



## El Clasico

dk_b said:


> I love Marshawn. My older kid (and my younger ones when there is a HS season) played Tech in non-league games and the ones at their house always made me think of that guy (and Rickey, of course).
> 
> Motherhood for college-educated women is starting later on average.  I am not too worried about that w/r/t my own daughters.  They are surrounded by professional women - attorneys, Drs, scientists - and they know that it can be done as a parent but the challenge is real.
> 
> I did make a passing reference to the social situation of a young player among adult pros but I want to return to it.  My kids are 4 years apart - my oldest (22), next (18) and next (14, 14).  My younger daughters idolize their older sister and I love it when they are together (but for Covid, I'd have let them head to campus to hang with big sis as I did as a HS freshman when my next closest sibling was a frosh at UCSB). But there are conversations of my 18yo that I have overheard and I can remember being 18 myself and it is clear that my 14yos are NOT their sister's peers (my 18yo can hang w/her older brother b/c the gap has closed). A 15yo hanging w/25yos?  25yos talking about social things that 25yos talk about?  Or do they temper their conversation around "the kid"?  Should they have to at that stage in life?  Does that isolate the younger player or make her grow up faster in areas that are not "on the pitch"?  I raised this way back when during a lengthy discussion on OM.
> 
> Look . . . if the path was so unique that turning pro provided an opportunity that might not otherwise be there (as in the case w/some of the teenage boys who stand to make million$$$), I'd counsel a different way.  But I don't think that's the case as yet.  It may change some day and there are even exceptions today (Horan's success v Pugh's path or Tierna going pro and thus availing herself of a World Cup bonus that she may not get in the future (since our senior team is so difficult to make and b/c injury and life can also get in the way).
> 
> I'm feel fortunate - and I think my daughter IS fortunate - that when she has to make that decision (if one is to be made), she will have plenty of people to consult with b/c of her youth, collegiate and YNT/WNT experience.  There will be high end players, middle of the road players and those who clearly don't aspire for WC glory but are planning on playing for a year or two before grad school (in addition to coaches she has had and others w/whom she's developed relationships who can offer unbiased advice). And if my younger 2 get there, their sister will be their best advisor.  Selfishly, I do hope she loves the game, has great success and is able to play at the next level.  Why selfish? B/c how many people get to watch their children perform in their profession?  I can say that in all the years that my parents were alive when I was in my profession (well, my mom died not long after I started practicing, my dad in the last couple of years), they never ONCE sat in my office and watched my draft or review a contract.
> 
> Sorry for the very long-winded replies.  This is the stuff that I miss discussing w/folks in person over coffee or a beer, around a fire at a hotel during a tournament or a poke bowl at some strip all.


You lost me at "poke bowl".


----------



## Dubs

dk_b said:


> If my kids are in a position to play pro for a few years after college, I will encourage it. You only get that chance when young and what an experience. My first 4 years after college were (i) year 1: work to save money to travel for a few months, followed by work to save money followed by (ii) years 2, 3 and 4 as a public school teacher (emergency credential while taking night classes for my multi subject) followed by (iii) a summer as a volunteer for the 94 World Cup. Then grad school for 3 years and then my career. My guess is that many of you have similar stories of doing a lot of interesting things that did not pay well but helped frame the person you are today.
> 
> Sub those 4 years with a chance to be a pro athlete while my body is young and my mind is open ... seems pretty great. Would I expect one of my kids - daughters (my son is past this phase) - to make a living/career doing this? No. But that’s not the point because those first years can be years for the purpose of trying something or somewhere interesting before setting in for a life path. Would I want them to do that at 15 or 16? No because I think they give up a lot of what the sport can provide (elite athletes already give up a lot of what other kids experience) - helping to get an education (whether because of the scholarship or merely the access to resources), be on a college campus for those critical wonderful heartbreaking in-love-falling intellectually curious years, travel the country and maybe the world while the tab is picked up, make friends from a collective of other young adults in that 18-22 age group (how much is a 15 year old hanging out with a 28 year old pro? Should she be?). Sure, some kids could be pros as teens and get their higher education. But how many minor league baseball players who signed out of HS (i) don’t make the majors (most) and (ii) never go to college (many if not most)?
> 
> I acknowledge that other parents and kids may feel differently (though it really is incumbent on us as parents to help kids see a broad view, something that even the smartest most mature 15yo can struggle with (how can they project 10 years out when 10 years back was when they were 5? I mean, I’m 53. 10 yrs out is not that hard because 10 years ago I was 43 and pretty damn grown. Kids don’t have perspective because they can’t)). And this generation of girls may have more financial rewards than the current women and certainly more than in the past (thanks to the hard work by those very women!). But other than for the elite, will the system approximate the men’s system? Where a nice living can be carved out playing 2d division? And what about the many, MANY men who went to elite academies (not talking US) as boys who experience a peak as a 16yo? How many Freddy Adu type players are there playing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, England, etc? How many just a cut below whom we will never see? Do they have an education to fall back on?  Unless the European education system has radically changed since I studied there a million years ago, the answer is “no”.


All kinds of Truth!


----------



## crush

Folly is in all of us and lot's of fun & joy to one who lacks judgment, but a man or a woman of understanding walks a straight path.  Plans of a teenager fails when they only listen to thee advisor.  With many advisors, victory is assured for dd


----------



## crush

I always had a hard time with spelling Bee contest when words sound the same but have different spellings.  For example, As a verb, *pair* (or *pair* up or *pair* off) means to put two people or things together. ... The verb *pare* means to remove, trim, cut back, or make something smaller or shorter. The noun *pear* refers to the sweet, juicy fruit or to the tree that this fruit grows on.  I used to spell parents as pairrents or a pair of rentals to watch over me.  I was adopted so that would make sense to someone like me, right?  A pair of two adults who helped baby crush with his diapers, a place to live, cloths, food and water and rent me for 18 years and then hand me off to the world.  The greatest gift one can give a teenager is their freedom.  I had dreams for my dd to be this and to do that and to marry this kind of guy and so on.  That's my two cents


----------



## EOTL

crush said:


> If my kid is in a position to play pro before college or in lieu of going to school, I will encourage it.  If my dd quits soccer altogether because men are selfish, then I will understand.  Share the soccer loot with the woman that you need in order to survive.
> 
> Without Awoman, we have no man, Amen men?  Now, mommy raised all these stud boys who are now pro soccer men making all the money.  Some men say woman need to stay in da house.  Some men say they need to go college.  Some men say they need to do this and that.  This man says pay the woman who helped all the boys make millions and billions a living wage in soccer.  Find the money, trust me someone has way too much and their not sharing with the girls, who we all need to make this planet awesome and growing with more boys & girls


I am going to give you advice although I know you won’t take since you only make poor decisions. Stop fantasizing that there is money in women’s soccer other than where it is, which is college opportunity and potentially scholarship money. Stop encouraging your kid to make horrible life decisions by encouraging her to go pro instead of to college. You say you can’t afford cable, yet you would encourage your kid to squander her presumed ability to leverage soccer to obtain college opportunities so she can make $20,000 a year and end up like her daddy?

Anyone who encourages their under 18 child to go pro instead of going to college is doing it for their own vanity and to their child’s detriment. Realistically, you have decided while they are still a child - and before they’re remotely old enough to have any idea what they want to do in life - that they will never be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, get an MBA, or anything else that requires substantially more education than an undergrad degree. And although in theory they can go back and get an undergrad degree (or even a professional degree) after making $20k a year for years, you have significantly reduced the likelihood that will happen because women in their mid 20s are unlikely to start college for a lot of reasons. Worse, you have caused them to be in the worst possible financial position to spend four years (or more if they want to go to grad school) to get through college. And if they were good enough to go pro at 18, you have almost certainly deprived them of a Stanford or UCLA education and substantial scholarship money in exchange for College of Phoenix. 

No 17 year old girl should give up so much opportunity to live their daddy’s fantasy. And although you might delude yourself into thinking your child knows they want to be a pro soccer player instead of going to college, a minor lacks the life experience and forethought to comprehend the consequences of the decision you’re making for them and are just too young to know what is best for them long term. You are the parent and, as such, have the obligation to direct them into making the right decision. I have a real hard time understanding why any parent would encourage their kid to get to the point that they are 23 years old and broke with no advanced education and no job skills, compared to having a Stanford or USC degree and sufficient life experience (and options) to decide then whether they’d rather be a pro soccer player, go to grad school, or get a job. But, then again, it’s you and we know you’re all about bad decisions and burning bridges on behalf of your kid.

I know you point to Moultrie as a model for your kid, but you fail to realize that she is not really a pro soccer player. She went pro as a Nike spokesperson who, in so doing, gave up her ability to play in college. But she also was apparently paid enough money to cover the scholarship she was giving up. That means she still has the option of going to college at 18, unlike the kid of the idiot dad who didn’t get that money from Nike but still  convinced his kid to give up her future to play soccer for $20k a year.


----------



## dk_b

El Clasico said:


> You lost me at "poke bowl".


My kids often hear me say, "I could eat poke (or sushi) every day."  And I could and I would not complain.


----------



## Soccer43

EOTL said:


> I am going to give you advice although I know you won’t take since you only make poor decisions. Stop fantasizing that there is money in women’s soccer other than where it is, which is college opportunity and potentially scholarship money. Stop encouraging your kid to make horrible life decisions by encouraging her to go pro instead of to college. You say you can’t afford cable, yet you would encourage your kid to squander her presumed ability to leverage soccer to obtain college opportunities so she can make $20,000 a year and end up like her daddy?
> 
> Anyone who encourages their under 18 child to go pro instead of going to college is doing it for their own vanity and to their child’s detriment. Realistically, you have decided while they are still a child - and before they’re remotely old enough to have any idea what they want to do in life - that they will never be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, get an MBA, or anything else that requires substantially more education than an undergrad degree. And although in theory they can go back and get an undergrad degree (or even a professional degree) after making $20k a year for years, you have significantly reduced the likelihood that will happen because women in their mid 20s are unlikely to start college for a lot of reasons. Worse, you have caused them to be in the worst possible financial position to spend four years (or more if they want to go to grad school) to get through college. And if they were good enough to go pro at 18, you have almost certainly deprived them of a Stanford or UCLA education and substantial scholarship money in exchange for College of Phoenix.
> 
> No 17 year old girl should give up so much opportunity to live their daddy’s fantasy. And although you might delude yourself into thinking your child knows they want to be a pro soccer player instead of going to college, a minor lacks the life experience and forethought to comprehend the consequences of the decision you’re making for them and are just too young to know what is best for them long term. You are the parent and, as such, have the obligation to direct them into making the right decision. I have a real hard time understanding why any parent would encourage their kid to get to the point that they are 23 years old and broke with no advanced education and no job skills, compared to having a Stanford or USC degree and sufficient life experience (and options) to decide then whether they’d rather be a pro soccer player, go to grad school, or get a job. But, then again, it’s you and we know you’re all about bad decisions and burning bridges on behalf of your kid.
> 
> I know you point to Moultrie as a model for your kid, but you fail to realize that she is not really a pro soccer player. She went pro as a Nike spokesperson who, in so doing, gave up her ability to play in college. But she also was apparently paid enough money to cover the scholarship she was giving up. That means she still has the option of going to college at 18, unlike the kid of the idiot dad who didn’t get that money from Nike but still  convinced his kid to give up her future to play soccer for $20k a year.


absolutely on target here!


----------



## crush

EOTL said:


> I am going to give you advice although I know you won’t take since you only make poor decisions. Stop fantasizing that there is money in women’s soccer other than where it is, which is college opportunity and potentially scholarship money. Stop encouraging your kid to make horrible life decisions by encouraging her to go pro instead of to college. You say you can’t afford cable, yet you would encourage your kid to squander her presumed ability to leverage soccer to obtain college opportunities so she can make $20,000 a year and end up like her daddy?
> 
> Anyone who encourages their under 18 child to go pro instead of going to college is doing it for their own vanity and to their child’s detriment. Realistically, you have decided while they are still a child - and before they’re remotely old enough to have any idea what they want to do in life - that they will never be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, get an MBA, or anything else that requires substantially more education than an undergrad degree. And although in theory they can go back and get an undergrad degree (or even a professional degree) after making $20k a year for years, you have significantly reduced the likelihood that will happen because women in their mid 20s are unlikely to start college for a lot of reasons. Worse, you have caused them to be in the worst possible financial position to spend four years (or more if they want to go to grad school) to get through college. And if they were good enough to go pro at 18, you have almost certainly deprived them of a Stanford or UCLA education and substantial scholarship money in exchange for College of Phoenix.
> 
> No 17 year old girl should give up so much opportunity to live their daddy’s fantasy. And although you might delude yourself into thinking your child knows they want to be a pro soccer player instead of going to college, a minor lacks the life experience and forethought to comprehend the consequences of the decision you’re making for them and are just too young to know what is best for them long term. You are the parent and, as such, have the obligation to direct them into making the right decision. I have a real hard time understanding why any parent would encourage their kid to get to the point that they are 23 years old and broke with no advanced education and no job skills, compared to having a Stanford or USC degree and sufficient life experience (and options) to decide then whether they’d rather be a pro soccer player, go to grad school, or get a job. But, then again, it’s you and we know you’re all about bad decisions and burning bridges on behalf of your kid.
> 
> I know you point to Moultrie as a model for your kid, but you fail to realize that she is not really a pro soccer player. She went pro as a Nike spokesperson who, in so doing, gave up her ability to play in college. But she also was apparently paid enough money to cover the scholarship she was giving up. That means she still has the option of going to college at 18, unlike the kid of the idiot dad who didn’t get that money from Nike but still  convinced his kid to give up her future to play soccer for $20k a year.


Doc, I understand what your business model is about and the only way you make your coin.  You get paid to bring girls to college through soccer. The middleman is not needed anymore after Covid 19 is over.  Girls will be able to whatever they want, unless Mr control freak tells them what is best for them.  Money will not be a problem, trust me.  Freedom is coming soon!!!


----------



## crush

Soccer43 said:


> absolutely on target here!


43, your so wrong!!!!


----------



## crush

Soccer43 said:


> absolutely on target here!


On target?  Are you serious?  Enjoy being with the Doc of all Docs.  Wow 43, amazing!!!


----------



## crush

Hey everyone, this is not a vow.  This is me listening to many advisors.  I poke the bear too much and now bear is mad and is showing teeth and making threats.  So I give the forum to yours truly, EOTL.  He wanted it all and he was the one WHO said he's all powerful and always right.  He wants me gone and now you all know why.  Enjoy the forum everyone.  Soccer will get way better some day   USA!!!!!!!!


----------



## MacDre

dk_b said:


> I love Marshawn. My older kid (and my younger ones when there is a HS season) played Tech in non-league games and the ones at their house always made me think of that guy (and Rickey, of course).
> 
> Motherhood for college-educated women is starting later on average.  I am not too worried about that w/r/t my own daughters.  They are surrounded by professional women - attorneys, Drs, scientists - and they know that it can be done as a parent but the challenge is real.
> 
> I did make a passing reference to the social situation of a young player among adult pros but I want to return to it.  My kids are 4 years apart - my oldest (22), next (18) and next (14, 14).  My younger daughters idolize their older sister and I love it when they are together (but for Covid, I'd have let them head to campus to hang with big sis as I did as a HS freshman when my next closest sibling was a frosh at UCSB). But there are conversations of my 18yo that I have overheard and I can remember being 18 myself and it is clear that my 14yos are NOT their sister's peers (my 18yo can hang w/her older brother b/c the gap has closed). A 15yo hanging w/25yos?  25yos talking about social things that 25yos talk about?  Or do they temper their conversation around "the kid"?  Should they have to at that stage in life?  Does that isolate the younger player or make her grow up faster in areas that are not "on the pitch"?  I raised this way back when during a lengthy discussion on OM.
> 
> Look . . . if the path was so unique that turning pro provided an opportunity that might not otherwise be there (as in the case w/some of the teenage boys who stand to make million$$$), I'd counsel a different way.  But I don't think that's the case as yet.  It may change some day and there are even exceptions today (Horan's success v Pugh's path or Tierna going pro and thus availing herself of a World Cup bonus that she may not get in the future (since our senior team is so difficult to make and b/c injury and life can also get in the way).
> 
> I'm feel fortunate - and I think my daughter IS fortunate - that when she has to make that decision (if one is to be made), she will have plenty of people to consult with b/c of her youth, collegiate and YNT/WNT experience.  There will be high end players, middle of the road players and those who clearly don't aspire for WC glory but are planning on playing for a year or two before grad school (in addition to coaches she has had and others w/whom she's developed relationships who can offer unbiased advice). And if my younger 2 get there, their sister will be their best advisor.  Selfishly, I do hope she loves the game, has great success and is able to play at the next level.  Why selfish? B/c how many people get to watch their children perform in their profession?  I can say that in all the years that my parents were alive when I was in my profession (well, my mom died not long after I started practicing, my dad in the last couple of years), they never ONCE sat in my office and watched my draft or review a contract.
> 
> Sorry for the very long-winded replies.  This is the stuff that I miss discussing w/folks in person over coffee or a beer, around a fire at a hotel during a tournament or a poke bowl at some strip all.


I think the social situation can be extremely difficult for a 15 year old at a foreign club.  For the most part futbol clubs are cutthroat competitive environments not conducive to making friends. For players coming from a typical soccer club environment there will be class issues and language barriers to overcome too.  Most of the players at the clubs have Ph.D’s; they’re Poor, Hungry, & Determined.  Players are fighting to pull their families out of abject poverty and it’s hard to compete against them if one is merely playing for fun.

You are 100% correct about the social issues and anyone considering my path should also note that my player has been at Club Tijuana since she was 4 and will possibly be the first person to start with the 4-5 years old age group and make it to the first team for Xolo’s. The coaching staff feels as if she is their work product and she’s probably getting special treatment. My player has the option of hanging with the U17 team but the social dynamic is weird because most on the U17 team know their “competitive” futbol careers will be over at 16 when they aren’t selected for the first team and cut loose. And it’s an open secret my player is going to the first team. So imagine being the youngest and ALL of the older girls are jealous and resentful. I don’t know how (I think it’s b/c she’s German) but my daughters best friend is interested in sports management and will be traveling to all games with her. I am authorized to travel with the team too.

If I were German-American club wanting to explore German culture close to home, Tijuana would be my first choice as the owners and many of the power brokers in Mexico are German.  There’s a German International School located on the Club Tijuana facility.  Beginning in middle school my kid started hanging with the German kids and her conversational German is getting good.  I recently learned that Texas was actually the German part of Mexico before it was lost to the USA.  So, as strange as it may seem the German kids in Mexico still speak German and they aren’t recent immigrants either.

Wifey gets her second dose of the Pfizer vaccine this upcoming Saturday so we’ll have plenty of time to chop it up over a beverage of your choice soon.  First round on me.


----------



## suzysoccer1

crush said:


> Big pipe dream, right 43 lol.  Dream the dreams bro and let the dreamers dream whatever dreams they want for their life.  OM has worked harder then anyone I know that my dd played against and saw her hard work first hand.  She has a dream and Nike is helping her with that dream.  She has all the skills one needs to go to the next level.  Can she hang athletically and mentally is going to be the question?  I wish her nothing but the best and I applaud her for going all in for soccer.  I can tell you the little that I do know about her is she is 100% committed to be the best she can be.  Her parents have the means to support that dream and she even earned a pro contract at 13 years old and walked away from college game.


Guaranteed she plays one semester at UNC in 2023. Then leaves and goes overseas. Heard it here first.


----------



## suzysoccer1

EOTL said:


> I am going to give you advice although I know you won’t take since you only make poor decisions. Stop fantasizing that there is money in women’s soccer other than where it is, which is college opportunity and potentially scholarship money. Stop encouraging your kid to make horrible life decisions by encouraging her to go pro instead of to college. You say you can’t afford cable, yet you would encourage your kid to squander her presumed ability to leverage soccer to obtain college opportunities so she can make $20,000 a year and end up like her daddy?
> 
> Anyone who encourages their under 18 child to go pro instead of going to college is doing it for their own vanity and to their child’s detriment. Realistically, you have decided while they are still a child - and before they’re remotely old enough to have any idea what they want to do in life - that they will never be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, get an MBA, or anything else that requires substantially more education than an undergrad degree. And although in theory they can go back and get an undergrad degree (or even a professional degree) after making $20k a year for years, you have significantly reduced the likelihood that will happen because women in their mid 20s are unlikely to start college for a lot of reasons. Worse, you have caused them to be in the worst possible financial position to spend four years (or more if they want to go to grad school) to get through college. And if they were good enough to go pro at 18, you have almost certainly deprived them of a Stanford or UCLA education and substantial scholarship money in exchange for College of Phoenix.
> 
> No 17 year old girl should give up so much opportunity to live their daddy’s fantasy. And although you might delude yourself into thinking your child knows they want to be a pro soccer player instead of going to college, a minor lacks the life experience and forethought to comprehend the consequences of the decision you’re making for them and are just too young to know what is best for them long term. You are the parent and, as such, have the obligation to direct them into making the right decision. I have a real hard time understanding why any parent would encourage their kid to get to the point that they are 23 years old and broke with no advanced education and no job skills, compared to having a Stanford or USC degree and sufficient life experience (and options) to decide then whether they’d rather be a pro soccer player, go to grad school, or get a job. But, then again, it’s you and we know you’re all about bad decisions and burning bridges on behalf of your kid.
> 
> I know you point to Moultrie as a model for your kid, but you fail to realize that she is not really a pro soccer player. She went pro as a Nike spokesperson who, in so doing, gave up her ability to play in college. But she also was apparently paid enough money to cover the scholarship she was giving up. That means she still has the option of going to college at 18, unlike the kid of the idiot dad who didn’t get that money from Nike but still  convinced his kid to give up her future to play soccer for $20k a year.


Damn it to hell. I usually disagree with you on everything but here you are spot on. Got to give credit when it’s good.


----------



## dk_b

suzysoccer1 said:


> Guaranteed she plays one semester at UNC in 2023. Then leaves and goes overseas. Heard it here first.


How would she regain her NCAA eligibility if she has received payment for a sports-related endorsement deal?  (I'm not taking issue with what you are saying but just curious)


----------



## dad4

dk_b said:


> How would she regain her NCAA eligibility if she has received payment for a sports-related endorsement deal?  (I'm not taking issue with what you are saying but just curious)


I suspect it will have something to do with athletes regaining control of their name, image, and likeness.  Has OM actually received money to play, or only to endorse?


----------



## EOTL

dk_b said:


> How would she regain her NCAA eligibility if she has received payment for a sports-related endorsement deal?  (I'm not taking issue with what you are saying but just curious)


For now she can’t. That said, I suspect her parents understood which way the wind was blowing with NCAA restrictions prohibiting players from benefiting financially from endorsements and took a calculated gamble that the NCAA will change those rules by the time she is a freshman. Note that she hasn’t taken money to play because, if she had, she’d be done.


----------



## warrior49

Follow OM's parents on Instagram sometime and see what time it is. Peddling essential oils and how "successful" their daughter is... because of said essential oils. Nonsense. Like EOTL said, she's largely a spokesperson for Nike. Though I really have to ask who is going to buy Nike cleats because OM wears them? Come on. Pick an athlete who's done something.


----------



## Kicker4Life

EOTL said:


> I am going to give you advice although I know you won’t take since you only make poor decisions. Stop fantasizing that there is money in women’s soccer other than where it is, which is college opportunity and potentially scholarship money. Stop encouraging your kid to make horrible life decisions by encouraging her to go pro instead of to college. You say you can’t afford cable, yet you would encourage your kid to squander her presumed ability to leverage soccer to obtain college opportunities so she can make $20,000 a year and end up like her daddy?
> 
> Anyone who encourages their under 18 child to go pro instead of going to college is doing it for their own vanity and to their child’s detriment. Realistically, you have decided while they are still a child - and before they’re remotely old enough to have any idea what they want to do in life - that they will never be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, get an MBA, or anything else that requires substantially more education than an undergrad degree. And although in theory they can go back and get an undergrad degree (or even a professional degree) after making $20k a year for years, you have significantly reduced the likelihood that will happen because women in their mid 20s are unlikely to start college for a lot of reasons. Worse, you have caused them to be in the worst possible financial position to spend four years (or more if they want to go to grad school) to get through college. And if they were good enough to go pro at 18, you have almost certainly deprived them of a Stanford or UCLA education and substantial scholarship money in exchange for College of Phoenix.
> 
> No 17 year old girl should give up so much opportunity to live their daddy’s fantasy. And although you might delude yourself into thinking your child knows they want to be a pro soccer player instead of going to college, a minor lacks the life experience and forethought to comprehend the consequences of the decision you’re making for them and are just too young to know what is best for them long term. You are the parent and, as such, have the obligation to direct them into making the right decision. I have a real hard time understanding why any parent would encourage their kid to get to the point that they are 23 years old and broke with no advanced education and no job skills, compared to having a Stanford or USC degree and sufficient life experience (and options) to decide then whether they’d rather be a pro soccer player, go to grad school, or get a job. But, then again, it’s you and we know you’re all about bad decisions and burning bridges on behalf of your kid.
> 
> I know you point to Moultrie as a model for your kid, but you fail to realize that she is not really a pro soccer player. She went pro as a Nike spokesperson who, in so doing, gave up her ability to play in college. But she also was apparently paid enough money to cover the scholarship she was giving up. That means she still has the option of going to college at 18, unlike the kid of the idiot dad who didn’t get that money from Nike but still  convinced his kid to give up her future to play soccer for $20k a year.


It’s rare we see eye to eye, but you have a valid point and it should be acknowledged...My DD’s will go to college and if they want to keep playing after that and pro is an option, as another poster mentioned, why not!  They are still networking, traveling, learning and experiencing life.  All things they can parlay into their future endeavors.


----------



## dk_b

EOTL said:


> For now she can’t. That said, I suspect her parents understood which way the wind was blowing with NCAA restrictions prohibiting players from benefiting financially from endorsements and took a calculated gamble that the NCAA will change those rules by the time she is a freshman. Note that she hasn’t taken money to play because, if she had, she’d be done.


That's what I was assuming and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. The sums she received may be very different than limits the NCAA may impose (I'd expect some).


----------



## suzysoccer1

dk_b said:


> How would she regain her NCAA eligibility if she has received payment for a sports-related endorsement deal?  (I'm not taking issue with what you are saying but just curious)


 Because she the player received nothing. She didn’t sign a soccer deal she signed a PR, modeling, acting deal. Just like a kid who is a actor or model. Money my guess was placed in a trust or parent run company. The assumption was she is pro at soccer when in legal reality in the U.S. you can not be until 18. Therefore the only reason she couldn’t play D1 is financial benefits to her or signing with an agent. Did she sign with an agent or did her parents? Legally not one is the same. The parents are way to smart to not find a way. My guess August of 2023 she is playing soccer at UNC wins a naty then signs her pro deal with Barca after the NCAA’s. By the time anyone figures it out she is already gone and who the hell in the NCAA is gonna punish Anson Dorance. Nobody.


----------



## dk_b

suzysoccer1 said:


> Because she the player received nothing. She didn’t sign a soccer deal she signed a PR, modeling, acting deal. Just like a kid who is a actor or model. Money my guess was placed in a trust or parent run company. The assumption was she is pro at soccer when in legal reality in the U.S. you can not be until 18. Therefore the only reason she couldn’t play D1 is financial benefits to her or signing with an agent. Did she sign with an agent or did her parents? Legally not one is the same. The parents are way to smart to not find a way. My guess August of 2023 she is playing soccer at UNC wins a naty then signs her pro deal with Barca after the NCAA’s. By the time anyone figures it out she is already gone and who the hell in the NCAA is gonna punish Anson Dorance. Nobody.


Her endorsement is because of the sport and that has, historically, been disqualifying. And whether she signed or her parents did on her behalf may be a distinction without a difference.

it is a new era and by ‘23, I’m quite certain some level of compensation will be permitted. The only question to me is what limitations will be imposed and then how will those be tested.

I hope she is able to play because I’d like to see her in that environment. And your bold prediction is interesting - not sure I’d ever have such certainty with such a young athlete. A lot of 18 yo can’t miss hoopsters we never hear from again. But, of course, there is LeBron.


----------



## EOTL

warrior49 said:


> Follow OM's parents on Instagram sometime and see what time it is. Peddling essential oils and how "successful" their daughter is... because of said essential oils. Nonsense. Like EOTL said, she's largely a spokesperson for Nike. Though I really have to ask who is going to buy Nike cleats because OM wears them? Come on. Pick an athlete who's done something.


OM was a test case for Nike in terms of determining whether a 13 year old girl can be a lucrative brand ambassador, not because it believed she is destined for greatness. The ridiculous era of the social media brand ambassador is still relatively new and there are often surprises about what does and doesn’t work. It’s not like the parents of a kid that good have ever knocked on Nike’s door willing to throw away a free ride from the likes of UNC for a few shekels before, so why not try out a 13 year old girl since the price is right and see what happens? 

Looking at this from the outside, OM doesn’t work. The aggressive social media campaign seems to have tapered off, and neither she nor Nike seem particularly motivated to move Nike product through her at this point. The group you’d think would be Nike’s target, elite girls soccer players, mostly roll their eyes when she’s mentioned instead of running out to buy cleats. And those outside the world of elite girls soccer have no idea who she is or why she’s in a Nike ad, and couldn’t care less. You could throw any 13 year old girl into a Nike ad and the only people who recognize her are people who don’t seem to be drawn to Nike because of her.

Maybe Nike looked at signing her as an investment in the future in case she someday becomes a star, but I doubt it. If there is one thing Nike has perfected, it’s determining potential. Yes, she seems to be incredibly motivated to be the best soccer player she can be and is technically remarkable for her age.  However, undeniable fact is that her ceiling is capped by her relatively limited athletic ability, and Nike certainly knew that at the time. There is no amount of technical ability that makes up for the deficit in pure speed and quickness. Regardless, there’s only room in the U.S. for three WNT midfielders per generation who can conceivably sell product in any quantity. The odds that any 13 year old kid will become one of them is only slightly better than the odds that you will see a dinosaur. There’s no way Nike spent $100k or more on a 13 year old when recent federal lawsuits have shown us that $25k (plus the 5 cent paper bag the cash comes in) is the going rate for an 18 year old male HS basketball star.


----------



## Soccerfan2

suzysoccer1 said:


> Because she the player received nothing. She didn’t sign a soccer deal she signed a PR, modeling, acting deal. Just like a kid who is a actor or model. Money my guess was placed in a trust or parent run company. The assumption was she is pro at soccer when in legal reality in the U.S. you can not be until 18. Therefore the only reason she couldn’t play D1 is financial benefits to her or signing with an agent. Did she sign with an agent or did her parents? Legally not one is the same. The parents are way to smart to not find a way. My guess August of 2023 she is playing soccer at UNC wins a naty then signs her pro deal with Barca after the NCAA’s. By the time anyone figures it out she is already gone and who the hell in the NCAA is gonna punish Anson Dorance. Nobody.


She receives a shitload of Nike gear, which I have to hear about from my jealous DD when she sees her. “Mom she has a different pair of NICE Nike’s every single day!” 
Would be nice to see her end up playing in college, but I doubt it. They (parents and her) want the pro environment, not just the endorsement. If the NWSL is still going, I think she’ll be there. Interesting perspective on giving up amateur status though - hasn’t thought about that before.


----------



## MacDre

EOTL said:


> OM was a test case for Nike in terms of determining whether a 13 year old girl can be a lucrative brand ambassador, not because it believed she is destined for greatness. The ridiculous era of the social media brand ambassador is still relatively new and there are often surprises about what does and doesn’t work. It’s not like the parents of a kid that good have ever knocked on Nike’s door willing to throw away a free ride from the likes of UNC for a few shekels before, so why not try out a 13 year old girl since the price is right and see what happens?
> 
> Looking at this from the outside, OM doesn’t work. The aggressive social media campaign seems to have tapered off, and neither she nor Nike seem particularly motivated to move Nike product through her at this point. The group you’d think would be Nike’s target, elite girls soccer players, mostly roll their eyes when she’s mentioned instead of running out to buy cleats. And those outside the world of elite girls soccer have no idea who she is or why she’s in a Nike ad, and couldn’t care less. You could throw any 13 year old girl into a Nike ad and the only people who recognize her are people who don’t seem to be drawn to Nike because of her.
> 
> Maybe Nike looked at signing her as an investment in the future in case she someday becomes a star, but I doubt it. If there is one thing Nike has perfected, it’s determining potential. Yes, she seems to be incredibly motivated to be the best soccer player she can be and is technically remarkable for her age.  However, undeniable fact is that her ceiling is capped by her relatively limited athletic ability, and Nike certainly knew that at the time. There is no amount of technical ability that makes up for the deficit in pure speed and quickness. Regardless, there’s only room in the U.S. for three WNT midfielders per generation who can conceivably sell product in any quantity. The odds that any 13 year old kid will become one of them is only slightly better than the odds that you will see a dinosaur. There’s no way Nike spent $100k or more on a 13 year old when recent federal lawsuits have shown us that $25k (plus the 5 cent paper bag the cash comes in) is the going rate for an 18 year old male HS basketball star.


Damn.  They had me fooled.


----------



## EOTL

MacDre said:


> Damn.  They had me fooled.


Isn’t fooling people the entire point of advertising?


----------



## TOSDCI

MacDre said:


> I never said I didn’t want my kid to play college.  My kid wouldn’t have been identified if we had not shown interest in college.  I am saying after doing extensive research, it appears that the college environment is abusive and not beneficial to development more often than not.
> 
> So, again it’s my position that development in college is a fallacy with a few possible exceptions.  If folks want their kids developed, it would behoove them to stop drinking the Kool-Aide and look elsewhere for that development.  Again, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.


If you have a son that is very talented and is trying to make a career of soccer, then yes.  That kid should skip college and try to play in Europe.  If you have a daughter that is talented but will probably not make the USWNT, I would definitely have her play in college while getting a degree.  The payout from a college degree is way more than playing professional soccer (at this point).


----------



## MacDre

I attended the semifinals and final of the past women’s world cup in Lyon.  Based on what I observed, I think making the USWNT roster is attainable.  
Why is it so hard to hard to make the roster for USWNT?  Why does USWNT keep players until their damn near 40?


----------



## warrior49

MacDre said:


> I attended the semifinals and final of the past women’s world cup in Lyon.  Based on what I observed, I think making the USWNT roster is attainable.
> Why is it so hard to hard to make the roster for USWNT?  Why does USWNT keep players until their damn near 40?


That's the million dollar question. Politics. The best players in the nation are not necessarily on the USWNT.


----------



## suzysoccer1

MacDre said:


> I attended the semifinals and final of the past women’s world cup in Lyon.  Based on what I observed, I think making the USWNT roster is attainable.
> Why is it so hard to hard to make the roster for USWNT?  Why does USWNT keep players until their damn near 40?


RU serious? Do you have any clue how hard a game international soccer is? For fuck sake.
Making the Full U.S. Women’s National Soccer Team is such a insurmountable accomplishment words often times don’t account for how hard it is.  One does not “make the team” your never on the team really. It always changes. You have to earn that shit and then you have to TAKE AWAY a spot from a player who is the best in the world at her chosen craft. No one is 40 on the team. Players are on the roster for one reason only they are better than the next closet option. But if you think for hot damn second for example Carly Lloyd is just gonna step aside to give someone else a chance. No way, never.


----------



## suzysoccer1

warrior49 said:


> That's the million dollar question. Politics. The best players in the nation are not necessarily on the USWNT.


Where are they then?


----------



## EOTL

warrior49 said:


> That's the million dollar question. Politics. The best players in the nation are not necessarily on the USWNT.


That’s ridiculous. The core players have won two straight World Cups and caused the WNT to go on the longest and best run in its history and anyone’s history for that matter. This batch of players comprise the most dominating team in the history of women’s soccer.  They’re not only great individually, but the sum of the their parts is even greater than that. There’s no debate. None.


----------



## warrior49

suzysoccer1 said:


> Where are they then?


Not sure. I'm just going by my kid's club days, when we saw US scouts come tournaments and pick girls for camp. Most of them never seen again at camp. Most were busts. Not saying we don't have great players,


EOTL said:


> That’s ridiculous. The core players have won two straight World Cups and caused the WNT to go on the longest and best run in its history and, anyone’s history for that matter. This batch of players comprise the most dominating team in the history of women’s soccer.  They’re not only great individually, but the sum of the their parts is even greater than that. There’s no debate. None.


Ok my bad. I take it back ; ) But I have often wondered about the age of some of the USWNT players.


----------



## suzysoccer1

warrior49 said:


> Not sure. I'm just going by my kid's club days, when we saw US scouts come tournaments and pick girls for camp. Most of them never seen again at camp. Most were busts. Not saying we don't have great players,
> 
> 
> Ok my bad. I take it back ; ) But I have often wondered about the age of some of the USWNT players.


I agree with you on the youth team call ups. Those often times are US Soccer just looking at player and a weeding out process. We IMO dot have the best YNT system U23 and down. Often times yes with prior WNT coaches maybe they didn’t look at more players in a camp call up situation. That’s a totally fair assessment.


----------



## MacDre

suzysoccer1 said:


> RU serious? Do you have any clue how hard a game international soccer is? For fuck sake.
> Making the Full U.S. Women’s National Soccer Team is such a insurmountable accomplishment words often times don’t account for how hard it is.  One does not “make the team” your never on the team really. It always changes. You have to earn that shit and then you have to TAKE AWAY a spot from a player who is the best in the world at her chosen craft. No one is 40 on the team. Players are on the roster for one reason only they are better than the next closet option. But if you think for hot damn second for example Carly Lloyd is just gonna step aside to give someone else a chance. No way, never.


What’s make international soccer so difficult? 

Why does the EU/UK produce so many different “national teams” (England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Scotland etc.) and we keep the same players until they are in their late 30’s? My BS meter is going off.


----------



## Giesbock

Off topic for a sec...

Did Crush sign off ?


----------



## Kicker4Life

Giesbock said:


> Off topic for a sec...
> 
> Did Crush sign off ?


Check back tomorrow morning.....


----------



## dk_b

MacDre said:


> What’s make international soccer so difficult?
> 
> Why does the EU/UK produce so many different “national teams” (England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Scotland etc.) and we keep the same players until they are in their late 30’s? My BS meter is going off.


Here’s a chart with the average age from the 2019 WWC.  Of note, Japan went from the 2d oldest in 2015 to the 2d youngest in 2019. Also of note, our average age was about the same in 2019 and 2015 so there is turnover at roughly the same rate WC by WC (or it would skew older by 3 to 4 years (it was 27 in 2011, 28 in 2015 and 28.6 in 2019)).  Given our vast player population, I think the odds are that we will tend to be the oldest or near the oldest team but, really, the average age is not that different.  And given that there is such limited substitution, what would be more interesting to me would be to analyze is average age by minutes played.


----------



## full90

it is impossible or nearly impossible to make the full Women’s national team. Period. Those women are studs and not just soccer wise. They have the full dog mentality. That’s why so so so many women don’t or will ever make it.

Why don’t we see more player turnover? Cuz they are freaking studs. Is there politics involved? Sure. Are there other players out there that could make it and be as good? Probably. But that’s true of any team anywhere. It takes some luck and connections and intangibles to make it.

but we are talking about such a slim margin here. These are the best women in the world.

other nations are on the right track to catch us. But the gap is still there.

mexico is doing a good job growing their league. I wouldn’t take my kid there instead of playing in college in America. Maybe in 5 years it will be a better bath to pro but right now it isn’t.


----------



## notintheface

MacDre said:


> Thoughts?


Great pictures, and Marshawn is the man, but good lord get out of here with that Pogba united kit.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> mexico is doing a good job growing their league. I wouldn’t take my kid there instead of playing in college in America. Maybe in 5 years it will be a better bath to pro but right now it isn’t.


Liga MX Femenil is a pro league.  Tigres beat Houston Dash of the NWSL and then the  Dash won the NWSL challenge cup.

Why wouldn’t you take your kid to Club Tijuana at 18 and let her attend UCSD simultaneously?  Do you really think a college team environment is superior to a pro team environment?

I’m also starting to see a trend of players leaving college early.  I think the fat lady is starting to sing and the writing is on the wall for college soccer.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346578782140968960


----------



## Desert Hound

MacDre said:


> Liga MX Femenil is a pro league.  Tigres beat Houston Dash of the NWSL and then the  Dash won the NWSL challenge cup.
> 
> Why wouldn’t you take your kid to Club Tijuana at 18 and let her attend UCSD simultaneously?  Do you really think a college team environment is superior to a pro team environment?
> 
> I’m also starting to see a trend of players leaving college early.  I think the fat lady is starting to sing and the writing is on the wall for college soccer.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346578782140968960


What first seemed to be a hobby to the football aficionado Jorge Hank Rhon, has now been projected as a business and institution with many ambitions by his son Jorge Alberto Hank Inzunza, President of Club Tijuana, and co-owner Alberto Murguia Orozco. The president has announced several times in press conferences that the project is far bigger than a stadium and a First Division team. The institutional plan involves football schools and clinics throughout the region, including San Diego and Los Angeles, professional football training, talent recruitment squads; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd division affiliates; foundations and green campaigns, and a heavily invested commercial complex.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> Liga MX Femenil is a pro league.  Tigres beat Houston Dash of the NWSL and then the  Dash won the NWSL challenge cup.
> 
> Why wouldn’t you take your kid to Club Tijuana at 18 and let her attend UCSD simultaneously?  Do you really think a college team environment is superior to a pro team environment?
> 
> I’m also starting to see a trend of players leaving college early.  I think the fat lady is starting to sing and the writing is on the wall for college soccer.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346578782140968960


Rodman is a different story.  Assuming her dad saved a fraction of the money he earned with Chicago, she can ignore pay and do what she loves.

Not everyone is in that place.


----------



## MacDre

dad4 said:


> Rodman is a different story.  Assuming her dad saved a fraction of the money he earned with Chicago, she can ignore pay and do what she loves.
> 
> Not everyone is in that place.


I don’t think he saved much money because he’s been playing in TJ.


----------



## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346578782140968960


This is not a surprise to anyone about TR


----------



## Wwood

Everyone can’t wait to play in the NWSL it seems


----------



## Wwood

Soccer43 said:


> This is not a surprise to anyone about TR


This is not surprising at all. She couldn’t get into UCLA, and I was told she might not be eligible academically so if that’s the case she should go


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Soccer43 said:


> This is not a surprise to anyone about TR


not surprised. Perhaps a good move on her part.


----------



## TOSDCI

Wwood said:


> This is not surprising at all. She couldn’t get into UCLA, and I was told she might not be eligible academically so if that’s the case she should go


I hope that pro soccer works out for her then.


----------



## oh canada

Re the Cal Berkeley coach's behavior, I was recently reminded of this re UNC's Anson Dorrance:

_I traveled back down to North Carolina in 2007 to watch Anson Dorrance put his team through preseason workouts...The losers in bogies (a 2v2 drill with a goalie) had to, as Dorrance put it, "bend over."  They trudged into the goal area, turned their backs to the field, and put their hands on their ankles as teammates kicked soccer balls as hard as they could into their backsides.     _---Warrior Girls, page 216


----------



## Scott m Shurson

oh canada said:


> Re the Cal Berkeley coach's behavior, I was recently reminded of this re UNC's Anson Dorrance:
> 
> _I traveled back down to North Carolina in 2007 to watch Anson Dorrance put his team through preseason workouts...The losers in bogies (a 2v2 drill with a goalie) had to, as Dorrance put it, "bend over."  They trudged into the goal area, turned their backs to the field, and put their hands on their ankles as teammates kicked soccer balls as hard as they could into their backsides.     _---Warrior Girls, page 216


Classy guy.


----------



## outside!

oh canada said:


> Re the Cal Berkeley coach's behavior, I was recently reminded of this re UNC's Anson Dorrance:
> 
> _I traveled back down to North Carolina in 2007 to watch Anson Dorrance put his team through preseason workouts...The losers in bogies (a 2v2 drill with a goalie) had to, as Dorrance put it, "bend over."  They trudged into the goal area, turned their backs to the field, and put their hands on their ankles as teammates kicked soccer balls as hard as they could into their backsides.     _---Warrior Girls, page 216


That has been around probably since shortly after soccer became a game. I have heard it called "Butt's Up". Both of my kids have participated. It is harder to hit a butt when kicking from the mark than you would think. Getting hit in the butt or back of the legs by a soccer ball kicked from the mark does not hurt. Every time I have seen it done, there was much laughing by everyone involved. There may be things that Anson Dorrance has done that are questionable, but in my opinion this is not one of them.


----------



## gotothebushes

outside! said:


> That has been around probably since shortly after soccer became a game. I have heard it called "Butt's Up". Both of my kids have participated. It is harder to hit a butt when kicking from the mark than you would think. Getting hit in the butt or back of the legs by a soccer ball kicked from the mark does not hurt. Every time I have seen it done, there was much laughing by everyone involved. There may be things that Anson Dorrance has done that are questionable, but in my opinion this is not one of them.


My daughter U16 did Butt's Up last night at practice and all the girls in goal was laughing. Thought is was fun...


----------



## oh canada

gotothebushes said:


> My daughter U16 did Butt's Up last night at practice and all the girls in goal was laughing. Thought is was fun...


well that's the problem...of course the kids are going to laugh at the time.  Some of them will laugh because they think it's funny, but so will the kids who find it demeaning.  Classic situation of peer pressure, bullying, and unnecessary demeaning conduct.  Plenty of other ways to make the losers "pay", including sprints, burpees, pushups etc.  Bummer to hear that your daughter's team is doing it at the behest of an adult coach.  The kids are also learning that this conduct is appropriate.  Just because it's been done 20-30 years ago doesn't make it right either.  It's not.


----------



## Kicker4Life

oh canada said:


> well that's the problem...of course the kids are going to laugh at the time.  Some of them will laugh because they think it's funny, but so will the kids who find it demeaning.  Classic situation of peer pressure, bullying, and unnecessary demeaning conduct.  Plenty of other ways to make the losers "pay", including sprints, burpees, pushups etc.  Bummer to hear that your daughter's team is doing it at the behest of an adult coach.  The kids are also learning that this conduct is appropriate.  Just because it's been done 20-30 years ago doesn't make it right either.  It's not.


Seriously???

What’s your stance on participation trophies?

I mean, you did think Alex Morgan was selfish for setting a goal to make the Olympic roster after her pregnancy.


----------



## watfly

oh canada said:


> well that's the problem...of course the kids are going to laugh at the time.  Some of them will laugh because they think it's funny, but so will the kids who find it demeaning.  Classic situation of peer pressure, bullying, and unnecessary demeaning conduct.  Plenty of other ways to make the losers "pay", including sprints, burpees, pushups etc.  Bummer to hear that your daughter's team is doing it at the behest of an adult coach.  The kids are also learning that this conduct is appropriate.  Just because it's been done 20-30 years ago doesn't make it right either.  It's not.


This same lame excuse that was used by the PC police to get rid of dodgeball at school.  At our youth after school clubs the kids love dodgeball.  To a person they all say its their favorite activity.  Adults ruining fun for kids.

You also have it backwards.  Exercise shouldn't be used as "pay" for losing, it attaches a negative connotation to exercise as punishment.  That's Coaching 101.  Although if I did butts up I'd make shooters use their off foot.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

watfly said:


> This same lame excuse that was used by the PC police to get rid of dodgeball at school.  At our youth after school clubs the kids love dodgeball.  To a person they all say its their favorite activity.  Adults ruining fun for kids.
> 
> You also have it backwards.  Exercise shouldn't be used as "pay" for losing, it attaches a negative connotation to exercise as punishment.  That's Coaching 101.  Although if I did butts up I'd make shooters use their off foot.


I loved dodgeball, too, especially being a ‘keeper.  When it was voluntary to play.  Bend over and grab your ankles, in a pair of shorts?  C’mon.  What’s the purpose... besides a coach getting his jollies?

How would you react if Anson asked your kid to put on a pair of shorts and grab her ankles on a recruiting visit?


----------



## Kicker4Life

Scott m Shurson said:


> I loved dodgeball, too, especially being a ‘keeper.  When it was voluntary to play.  Bend over and grab your ankles, in a pair of shorts?  C’mon.  What’s the purpose... besides a coach getting his jollies?
> 
> How would you react if Anson asked your kid to put on a pair of shorts and grab her ankles on a recruiting visit?


Fair point.....but anyone who’s played the game knows you want to show as little surface area as possible so the bending over is logical self preservation....lol


----------



## watfly

Scott m Shurson said:


> I loved dodgeball, too, especially being a ‘keeper.  When it was voluntary to play.  Bend over and grab your ankles, in a pair of shorts?  C’mon.  What’s the purpose... besides a coach getting his jollies?
> 
> How would you react if Anson asked your kid to put on a pair of shorts and grab her ankles on a recruiting visit?


I wouldn't let my child play for him, but you know those are two completely different scenarios.  Now if he was playing butts up on the pitch with his hands in his pants that's a different story.  I'll admit for college ladies it seems a little silly to play butts up.

As far as dodgeball goes when I was growing up it was always voluntary on the playground, but yet still banned today because of the PC cancel culture.


----------



## Soccerfan2

I gotta admit, I don’t like watching butts up. I’m usually thinking please don’t hurt anyone. Then, hardly nobody ever hits anyone hard, and by the end I’ve changed to thinking they all need a LOT more finishing practice.


----------



## MacDre

watfly said:


> As far as dodgeball goes when I was growing up it was always voluntary on the playground, but yet still banned today because of the PC cancel culture.


IDK.  Where I grew up dodge ball and smear the queer were the easiest trouble free ways of beating up tattletales.  Just pretend to be their friend and invite them to play and everyone take turns pegging their ass until they cry.


----------



## watfly

MacDre said:


> IDK.  Where I grew up dodge ball and smear the queer were the easiest trouble free ways of beating up tattletales.  Just pretend to be their friend and invite them to play and everyone take turns pegging their ass until they cry.


Yep, but just about any activity could be used as an excuse to bully kids.  Dodgeball and butts up aren't inherently demeaning or a bullying behavior.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

MacDre said:


> IDK.  Where I grew up dodge ball and smear the queer were the easiest trouble free ways of beating up tattletales.  Just pretend to be their friend and invite them to play and everyone take turns pegging their ass until they cry.


I can only imagine how much therapy EOTL will need after reading this.


----------



## dad4

MacDre said:


> IDK.  Where I grew up dodge ball and smear the queer were the easiest trouble free ways of beating up tattletales.  Just pretend to be their friend and invite them to play and everyone take turns pegging their ass until they cry.


Interesting story.  Did you grow up in a pleasant neighborhood?


----------



## oh canada

Kicker4Life said:


> Seriously???
> 
> What’s your stance on participation trophies?
> 
> I mean, you did think Alex Morgan was selfish for setting a goal to make the Olympic roster after her pregnancy.


Not a fan of participation trophies, but that's irrelevant to doing butt's up.

Have no problem with dodgeball.  There's a big difference between bending over and grabbing ankles in submission on a "stage" in front of teammates, making oneself a stationary target and hoping that balls kicked as hard as possible whizz past your ass vs. standing upright while looking at your opponent and being able to use your own athletic ability to jump, duck, bend or catch a thrown (much slower than a kick) ball.  I wouldn't be surprised in today's world if a cellphone comes out during butt's up to capture the moment a girl gets her ass pegged so that it can be paired to a 2 Live Crew song and posted for the World to see just how much "fun" it was.  It's wrong in so many ways.  I don't expect all parents to realize it's wrong, but college coaches certainly should, and club/high school coaches should too. 

Good memory.  My issue with Alex Morgan was the entitled tone of her media remarks.  Maybe that was written for her by PR reps or Nike?  Have no problem with her setting a goal of being back, but she does not have the talent/skill imo to have a lock on the starting #9, especially not 6 weeks post-pregnancy.  Alex Morgan is a lifestyle brand now, not the country's best striker brand, and Nike et al. will not allow their investment to be pushed aside, even if better players lie in wait (and they do).


----------



## Giesbock

watfly said:


> Yep, but just about any activity could be used as an excuse to bully kids.  Dodgeball and butts up aren't inherently demeaning or a bullying behavior.


I was in an all boys class at a public middle school. Teacher was a “tough guy” type.. During PE class he turned into “the coach”. Played softball, flag football, a variant of dodgeball called Munkenai (sp ?) He always made fun of lesser athletes on the field and had nicknames.  Back in class he had a paddle with holes drilled into it. Made 6th grade boys bend over and take their licks. Pure humiliation and abuse.

When I read about AD’s trick for getting girls to bend over, it immediately took me back to that year in school. Surprised that it’s allowed.


----------



## crush

I remember in 7th grade we had to take showers after PE.  My God that was insane and full of boys making fun of other boys who have not started puberty.  I'll confess I was a late bloomer   I tried to get out of public speaking because I stuttered and it was one big, "no.!!!  I tried to get out of the shower and I was told to get my ass in the locker and shower up.  I wasnt confident like 8th graders who some were full grown men already.  Grabbing the ankles is the worse fuc*ing game for any girls or boys in soccer.  I dont like the name at all!!!  Play another game coach.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

watfly said:


> I wouldn't let my child play for him, but you know those are two completely different scenarios.  Now if he was playing butts up on the pitch with his hands in his pants that's a different story.  I'll admit for college ladies it seems a little silly to play butts up.
> 
> As far as dodgeball goes when I was growing up it was always voluntary on the playground, but yet still banned today because of the PC cancel culture.


I don’t disagree they’re different, but I think they’re only slightly different.  If you’re wearing hockey pants and pads, they’re real different.  In this case, in my mind, it’s humiliation, sexual or both.  Boner or no boner.  Do 18-year old girls/women really need either of those?  It’s similar to what Neil has been accused of.  If you’re playing at that level, what’s to be learned?  I’m all for putting the freshman through their paces, which we used to call “hazing”, but I also think it must serve a purpose and I don’t see one here.


----------



## dad4

It is insulting to athletes to imply that they would never work hard enough without some sexual humiliation.  

I’m trying to imagine ”butts up” at a program where athletes are free to walk away.  I don’t think it would last long.


----------



## full90

As an athlete I would’ve laughed and joined in. My kids would all be fine with it. Laugh it off or whatever. But I do feel for the kid who wouldn’t feel comfortable or wouldn’t want to do it but would feel too scared to speak up or ask to not do it. For that kid’s sake we should retire these “games.” They aren’t important enough to keep.


----------



## MacDre

__





						Klara Bühl awarded with the Fritz-Walter-Medal | Fem11 GmbH - Agentur im Frauenfußball
					






					www.fem11.com
				





__
		https://lea-schuller.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F627018683250769920



oh canada said:


> Not a fan of participation trophies, but that's irrelevant to doing butt's up.
> 
> Have no problem with dodgeball.  There's a big difference between bending over and grabbing ankles in submission on a "stage" in front of teammates, making oneself a stationary target and hoping that balls kicked as hard as possible whizz past your ass vs. standing upright while looking at your opponent and being able to use your own athletic ability to jump, duck, bend or catch a thrown (much slower than a kick) ball.  I wouldn't be surprised in today's world if a cellphone comes out during butt's up to capture the moment a girl gets her ass pegged so that it can be paired to a 2 Live Crew song and posted for the World to see just how much "fun" it was.  It's wrong in so many ways.  I don't expect all parents to realize it's wrong, but college coaches certainly should, and club/high school coaches should too.
> 
> Good memory.  My issue with Alex Morgan was the entitled tone of her media remarks.  Maybe that was written for her by PR reps or Nike?  Have no problem with her setting a goal of being back, but she does not have the talent/skill imo to have a lock on the starting #9, especially not 6 weeks post-pregnancy.  Alex Morgan is a lifestyle brand now, not the country's best striker brand, and Nike et al. will not allow their investment to be pushed aside, even if better players lie in wait (and they do).


2 live crew fan, eh?


----------



## EOTL

Is anyone aware of a girl injured from butts up?  Not butt hurt, but actually hurt.  No doubt there is a short range where it is conceivable, but the wrongness of the exercise is also inversely proportional to distance.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Is anyone aware of a girl injured from butts up?  Not butt hurt, but actually hurt.  No doubt there is a short range where it is conceivable, but the wrongness of the exercise is also inversely proportional to distance.



Are you aware of any Hispanic men, wearing lipstick and a dress, actually injured after being told they can’t use the restroom marked “ladies”?  Or is the wrongness inversely proportionate to who you empathize with? 

It’s amazing how your social justice only applies to gays and minorities.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Are you aware of any Hispanic men, wearing lipstick and a dress, actually injured after being told they can’t use the restroom marked “ladies”?  Or is the wrongness inversely proportionate to who you empathize with?
> 
> It’s amazing how your social justice only applies to gays and minorities.


You’re really going pretty far out of the way to be racist and homophobic. But that’s why I’m here bigot.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> You’re really going pretty far out of the way to be racist and homophobic. But that’s why I’m here bigot.


Your “go to” is getting thin and dated.


----------



## espola

EOTL said:


> You’re really going pretty far out of the way to be racist and homophobic. But that’s why I’m here bigot.


Is that an outlaw  ghost account?


----------



## Soccer43

full90 said:


> As an athlete I would’ve laughed and joined in. My kids would all be fine with it. Laugh it off or whatever. But I do feel for the kid who wouldn’t feel comfortable or wouldn’t want to do it but would feel too scared to speak up or ask to not do it. For that kid’s sake we should retire these “games.” They aren’t important enough to keep.


I am guessing that all these posters that are just fine with this "game" are dads.  Think about it from a girls perspective - it is a sexualized pose.  Unnecessary "game"


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Your “go to” is getting thin and dated.


Racism and homophobia had always been thin and dated. Actually, that’s far too diplomatic.  It’s pathetic. Your bigoted attitude is one of the main reason ls you have not done well in life. Mr. Can’t Walk Down a Ramp Because He S**ts His Pants gave you a brief reprieve, but its over.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> Racism and homophobia had always been thin and dated. Actually, that’s far too diplomatic.  It’s pathetic. Your bigoted attitude is one of the main reason ls you have not done well in life. Mr. Can’t Walk Down a Ramp Because He S**ts His Pants gave you a brief reprieve, but its over.


No, you are thin and dated.  Your bullshit.  Your bigoted attitude against women is as vile as anything anybody else has said here about anybody else. 

I’ve actually done fairly well in life, unlike your effort to compose that sentence.  If you want to insult me, have someone proof your work, fool.  Babbling about some fucking ramp.  Are you drunk or triggered, because you shit your pants on that post?


----------



## watfly

oh canada said:


> Re the Cal Berkeley coach's behavior, I was recently reminded of this re UNC's Anson Dorrance:
> 
> _I traveled back down to North Carolina in 2007 to watch Anson Dorrance put his team through preseason workouts...The losers in bogies (a 2v2 drill with a goalie) had to, as Dorrance put it, "bend over."  They trudged into the goal area, turned their backs to the field, and put their hands on their ankles as teammates kicked soccer balls as hard as they could into their backsides.     _---Warrior Girls, page 216


I think part of the problem is people are being misled by the gratuitous description in the book.  Salacious sells and here is some guys account of what he saw.   It was obviously something new to this guy and wasn't familiar with the fairly common activity of "butts up" and he exaggerated the activity.  To be honest I've never seen a coach suggest butts up, but kids do it all the time as a suggestion for the "loser" of some activity at practice.  It's far from point blank shots "as hard as they could" and anyone who has seen butts up can attest that its not some "pseudo sexual dominance thing" as many of you are suggesting.  Why you see it that way is probably a discussion for the Off Topic forum.   You'd be really uncomfortable with my daughter's dance competitions... I haven't been exactly thrilled on occasion.


----------



## Copa9

Scott m Shurson said:


> I don’t disagree they’re different, but I think they’re only slightly different.  If you’re wearing hockey pants and pads, they’re real different.  In this case, in my mind, it’s humiliation, sexual or both.  Boner or no boner.  Do 18-year old girls/women really need either of those?  It’s similar to what Neil has been accused of.  If you’re playing at that level, what’s to be learned?  I’m all for putting the freshman through their paces, which we used to call “hazing”, but I also think it must serve a purpose and I don’t see one here.


Also, what if the girl has her period? So much could happen. Not acceptable. Run sprints, take shots to improve, whatever, this is unacceptable. It's done to humiliate and dominate.  If the coach can't think of a better way to improve player performance he/she needs to be fired.


----------



## Soccer43

Have interacted with dozens of coaches, been involved in multiple teams and soccer environments at all ages and have never had a player involved in this “game”. It is not as common as everyone is saying here-


----------



## GT45

It was played more in the past. Most people have figured out that it is inappropriate and best not played.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> No, you are thin and dated.  Your bullshit.  Your bigoted attitude against women is as vile as anything anybody else has said here about anybody else.
> 
> I’ve actually done fairly well in life, unlike your effort to compose that sentence.  If you want to insult me, have someone proof your work, fool.  Babbling about some fucking ramp.  Are you drunk or triggered, because you shit your pants on that post?


There are 12 step programs for Magat bigot cultists like you. So much fun to see so much losing for y’all.


----------



## Scott m Shurson

EOTL said:


> There are 12 step programs for Magat bigot cultists like you. So much fun to see so much losing for y’all.


Is that all you have in your quiver, Robin Hood?  “Bigots, Racists and Magats”.

How stale and uninspiring.  We’re you always the last kid picked during P.E.?


----------



## Tyler Durden

My thought is that his contact should not have been renewed a while ago.   His record alone should not have supported him being the coach. 

Cal should get into the tourney every year.   Also if he has to go to those means to motivate players he is not recruiting the right players and fostering the right team environment for success.


----------



## espola

Tyler Durden said:


> My thought is that his contact should not have been renewed a while ago.   His record alone should not have supported him being the coach.
> 
> Cal should get into the tourney every year.   Also if he has to go to those means to motivate players he is not recruiting the right players and fostering the right team environment for success.


Berkeley's women's soccer Graduation Success Rate has been in the bottom half of PAC-12 for years.

I know, it's a tough school.


----------



## Wwood

I agree that Cal soccer should be better, but by how much and why? The issue seems to be more with the department itself maybe? In women’s sports, Soccer seems to be one of the best in their department, if not the best. Basketball is winless this year and just terrible in general. Softball is around .500 and average at best. Volleyball is also awful. If he should be fired based on performance, pretty much every single women’s sports head coaches should be fired at Cal.


----------



## EOTL

Scott m Shurson said:


> Is that all you have in your quiver, Robin Hood?  “Bigots, Racists and Magats”.
> 
> How stale and uninspiring.  We’re you always the last kid picked during P.E.?


The truth is what it is.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

I would be shocked if Neil is not fired at the end of the season.   The AD can act now without being sued.


----------



## gotothebushes

eastbaysoccer said:


> I would be shocked if Neil is not fired at the end of the season.   The AD can act now without being sued.


 How so?


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gotothebushes said:


> How so?


Well I suppose you can sue anyone any time.
finishing nearly last in the PAC-12 with a top 3 recruiting class and underperforming vs. like schools as UCLA, USC and Stanford CONSISTENTLY is enough to get one canned.


----------



## gotothebushes

eastbaysoccer said:


> Well I suppose you can sue anyone any time.
> finishing nearly last in the PAC-12 with a top 3 recruiting class and underperforming vs. like schools as UCLA, USC and Stanford CONSISTENTLY is enough to get one canned.


Would surprise me if any coach will get fired during covid.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gotothebushes said:


> Would surprise me if any coach will get fired during covid.


Why not?  Plenty of people are being laid off across the US.  Why would women’s soccer coaches be immune?


----------



## Tyler Durden

eastbaysoccer said:


> Why not?  Plenty of people are being laid off across the US.  Why would women’s soccer coaches be immune?


I don't want anyone to lose their means to support themselves and family, but I would think he could get more involved at Mustang if he were to not have his contact extended at Cal.


----------



## gotothebushes

eastbaysoccer said:


> Why not?  Plenty of people are being laid off across the US.  Why would women’s soccer coaches be immune?


 I'm justing saying this wasn't a shorten season with only 10 games. Being off for more than 10 months didn't help either.


----------



## Soccer43

If a coach is doing a bad job or harming players then they should be fired.  It is about performance for the players and should also be about performance for the coaches as well.  If you can't be successful and achieve as a coach then you should find another profession.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Tyler Durden said:


> I don't want anyone to lose their means to support themselves and family, but I would think he could get more involved at Mustang if he were to not have his contact extended at Cal.


 Well Neil would lose his means but someone will gain, so it' a wash.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

Bodnar’s Contract Not Renewed by Eastern Washington - Eastern Washington University Athletics
					

Eastern Washington University announced today (May 10) that head women's soccer coach Chad Bodnar will not have his contract renewed.




					goeags.com


----------



## SoccerJones

eastbaysoccer said:


> Well I suppose you can sue anyone any time.
> finishing nearly last in the PAC-12 with a top 3 recruiting class and underperforming vs. like schools as UCLA, USC and Stanford CONSISTENTLY is enough to get one canned.


There's a couple ways to look at this...one those rankings are way off (which they are) and two He hasn't made it past the second round in a LONG time.  At any other high conference school, he would have been canned a long time ago


----------



## crush

Looks like the Swimming coach is super mean, allegedly.  Why are some coaches assholes?  Why do coaches treat other fellow humans like this?  WTF up you guys and read this.  You think it only happens in swimming?  My dd was told by a top coach that the more he yells at a player=the more I care for that player.  Yikes!!!









						UC Berkeley swimmers allege coach Teri McKeever bullied and verbally abused them for years
					

Swimmers describe a toxic culture that led to a number mental health issues and an unresponsive administration.




					www.ocregister.com


----------



## Carlsbad7

crush said:


> Looks like the Swimming coach is super mean, allegedly.  Why are some coaches assholes?  Why do coaches treat other fellow humans like this?  WTF up you guys and read this.  You think it only happens in swimming?  My dd was told by a top coach that the more he yells at a player=the more I care for that player.  Yikes!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UC Berkeley swimmers allege coach Teri McKeever bullied and verbally abused them for years
> 
> 
> Swimmers describe a toxic culture that led to a number mental health issues and an unresponsive administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ocregister.com


They do it because it gets results in the ones that stay + it also scares off the ones that cant take it + allows them to recruit a new/younger player to fill their shoes.

The players are tortured but who cares because the team is a winning.


----------



## crush

Carlsbad7 said:


> They do it because it gets results in the ones that stay + it also scares off the ones that cant take it + allows them to recruit a new/younger player to fill their shoes.
> 
> The players are tortured but who cares because the team is a winning.


My buddy has a dd that quit soccer because of this kind of meanness from some assholes at the D1 level.  Some coaches have 40 players to pick on to find their top 11 starters and 7 players ready to go on the bench.  After they figure out quickly who will obey their way of coaching, they will turn their attention to the "trouble maker(s)" ((usually a leader, just not the type of leader the asshole coach likes)) that ask too many damn questions or challenges a top coach for abuse and bullying.  They will narrow in on those few players, scream at them, yell at them and put them down so bad they either quit or want to kill themselves.  WTF is this?


----------



## gkrent

crush said:


> They will narrow in on those few players, scream at them, yell at them and put them down so bad they either quit or want to kill themselves.  WTF is this?


Whatever it is it has to stop and I wish the NCAA would step in and some ADs would have the courage to end this.  If an AD that had staff treating other people on their staff like this it would be a massive HR violation and lawsuit.


----------



## Carlsbad7

crush said:


> My buddy has a dd that quit soccer because of this kind of meanness from some assholes at the D1 level.  Some coaches have 40 players to pick on to find their top 11 starters and 7 players ready to go on the bench.  After they figure out quickly who will obey their way of coaching, they will turn their attention to the "trouble maker(s)" ((usually a leader, just not the type of leader the asshole coach likes)) that ask too many damn questions or challenges a top coach for abuse and bullying.  They will narrow in on those few players, scream at them, yell at them and put them down so bad they either quit or want to kill themselves.  WTF is this?


This is pretty much how it works at the top level. Add parent pressure + social circle pressure to the mix.

Players that were on the top club/team their entire lives (often because parents were pulling strings in the background) will have a hard time when none of that works any longer + suddenly the entire team is full of players just like them.


----------



## crush

gkrent said:


> Whatever it is it has to stop and I wish the NCAA would step in and some ADs would have the courage to end this.  If an AD that had staff treating other people on their staff like this it would be a massive HR violation and lawsuit.


Well, it looks like they get to be the keystone cops and the private investigators and that is not good.  The pressure put on these athletes is wrong and abusive.  You also have to be concerned that one of these coaches will try and date your dd, marry them or at least hook up and I don't like that at all.  I get hate PMs when I go there but I think it's time we all help clean this abuse up.  I can't be the only one who see's all this crap!!  I know not all coaches are like this swim coach.  However, we need the good one's to start speaking up and not worry about media day.  Jimbo called out Nick.  Fear keeps so many from speaking up for fear of losing their job, position or spot on the team.  "My lips are sealed" they say because they don;t want to get labeled a trouble maker dad or get blacklisted for being a leader.


----------



## crush

gkrent said:


> Whatever it is it has to stop and I wish the NCAA would step in and some ADs would have the courage to end this.  If an AD that had staff treating other people on their staff like this it would be a massive HR violation and lawsuit.


I have heard it said many times on here that the girls really do earn their scholarships in college and have to also take on verbal abuse.  It's more than a full time job some say during the season and most think that a half or full ride is worth being "challenged and called out" by the coach to be tougher and not a big baby that is always complaining of being sick with cramps or just tired of being yelled at and cursed at.  Some girls have hormonal and emotional reaction from the pill and during "that time of the month" as well and all this needs to be handled with love, respect, kindness, understanding and patients.  Yelling and screaming at girls with cramps is horrible.  I was a sales manager and I could never talk to my female or males workers like this, regardless of their salary or how much I thought they would fail.  In fact, I gave everyone of my reps a chance and I never yelled at them.  My gosh!!!  This is going on a lot ((not all places)) you guys and we all know it.  Most parents keep quite and I understand that and I don;t judge.  If you speak up, your toast and the player is blacklisted.  I know how this all works, trust me


----------



## Carlsbad7

crush said:


> I have heard it said many times on here that the girls really do earn their scholarships in college and have to also take on verbal abuse.  It's more than a full time job some say during the season and most think that a half or full ride is worth being "challenged and called out" by the coach to be tougher and not a big baby that is always complaining of being sick or just tired of being yelled at and cursed at.  I was a sales manager and I could never talk to my female or males workers like this, regardless of their salary or how much I thought they would fail.  In fact, I gave everyone of my reps a chance and I never yelled at them.  My gosh!!!  This is going on a lot ((not all places)) you guys and we all know it.  Most parents keep quite and I understand that and I don;t judge.  If you speak up, your toast and the player is blacklisted.  I know how this all works, trust me


It's fairly easy to solve. 

Colleges should pay players like employees (which they are). 

Do this and it will all stop once the hostile work environment lawsuits come rolling in.









						Stu-dent ATH-O-LEETS - South Park | South Park Studios US
					

Cartman visits the University of Colorado to get business advice.




					southpark.cc.com


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## crush

Carlsbad7 said:


> It's fairly easy to solve.
> 
> Colleges should pay players like employees (which they are).
> 
> Do this and it will all stop once the hostile work environment lawsuits come rolling in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stu-dent ATH-O-LEETS - South Park | South Park Studios US
> 
> 
> Cartman visits the University of Colorado to get business advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> southpark.cc.com


Retaliation will stop as well from these punks.  It's one thing to complain about a hostile work environment, it's another when one does complain and then is 100% retaliated against and their reputation destroyed.  It's one thing to get blocked entry, it's another when assholes make up lies and half truths to make one look bad. The fact is, just because a girl or boy can do a 4.7, 1500 SAT and kick a soccer ball doesn't make them experts on how to handle being yelled at and called names from a coach at a far away place, away from home the first time.  A girl made to feel stupid because they feel like ending their life is cruel and evil and maybe criminal ((if true)). We all know some smart people who bailed on us and we all thought they were happy.  Happy on the outside does not equal happy on the inside


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## BIGD

gkrent said:


> Whatever it is it has to stop and I wish the NCAA would step in and some ADs would have the courage to end this.  If an AD that had staff treating other people on their staff like this it would be a massive HR violation and lawsuit.


I always say if the managers in the workplace treated their employees the way some (probably most) youth coaches treat their players they would be fired.  Why are adults more protected than kids?  Crazy...


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## gkrent

crush said:


> I have heard it said many times on here that the girls really do earn their scholarships in college and have to also take on verbal abuse.  It's more than a full time job some say during the season and most think that a half or full ride is worth being "challenged and called out" by the coach to be tougher and not a big baby that is always complaining of being sick with cramps or just tired of being yelled at and cursed at.  Some girls have hormonal and emotional reaction from the pill and during "that time of the month" as well and all this needs to be handled with love, respect, kindness, understanding and patients.  Yelling and screaming at girls with cramps is horrible.  I was a sales manager and I could never talk to my female or males workers like this, regardless of their salary or how much I thought they would fail.  In fact, I gave everyone of my reps a chance and I never yelled at them.  My gosh!!!  This is going on a lot ((not all places)) you guys and we all know it.  Most parents keep quite and I understand that and I don;t judge.  If you speak up, your toast and the player is blacklisted.  I know how this all works, trust me


My player lost her love of the game because of this kind of stuff, and her coaching staff weren't nearly the assholes that you see at other programs, just a lot of passive aggressive pressure and related BS.  She had not even peaked in her last season and was leading the NCAA in shutouts, save percentage and other states.  She had NWSL coaches reaching out regarding the draft and she passed because she had lost the zest that would be required to play at that level.  Then seeing one of her peers and old YNT teammate, a top prospect for the pros, kill herself, and that did it for her.

She started coaching young girls and found that the impact she was making on them was meaningful, and will probably continue to do that as a side hustle.  In the process of being involved in the youth, she started playing again in an adult league and started having fun again.

There must be some way to get top performance out of young women without all the games, tricks, abuse, and assholery.


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## Sike

gkrent said:


> My player lost her love of the game because of this kind of stuff, and her coaching staff weren't nearly the assholes that you see at other programs, just a lot of passive aggressive pressure and related BS.  She had not even peaked in her last season and was leading the NCAA in shutouts, save percentage and other states.  She had NWSL coaches reaching out regarding the draft and she passed because she had lost the zest that would be required to play at that level.  Then seeing one of her peers and old YNT teammate, a top prospect for the pros, kill herself, and that did it for her.
> 
> She started coaching young girls and found that the impact she was making on them was meaningful, and will probably continue to do that as a side hustle.  In the process of being involved in the youth, she started playing again in an adult league and started having fun again.
> 
> There must be some way to get top performance out of young women without all the games, tricks, abuse, and assholery.


Some random, somewhat related thoughts...

First, I hope your dd continues to find ways to impact young girls, either as a coach or just a strong female leader. She is a great example for young girls (players and non-players). Finding her way through multiple significant injuries, ending her college career like she did and getting her college degree is a great story.

Second, as bad as it is some places at the college level, it is even worse when I see parents putting their dd's in these situations at the youth level. We have all seen the behavior at the youngest ages of club soccer.  Parents are essentially telling their dd's that the behavior is normal/acceptable and it just isn't. I can't imagine letting my 12 year-old daughter play for one of these coaches simply to chase some silly trophy or because I think it improves her chances of playing in college. There are plenty of good youth coaches who don't behave this way, but the bad ones will continue to succeed as long as parents allow it.

Third, this is why I continue to like hs soccer for my dd. It is a good break from the grind of club soccer as the girls get older and it can help remind them why they love the game. I realize the soccer isn't as good and the physical nature of hs soccer isn't acceptable in some leagues, but it can be a great experience at the right school. Do your research on the hs program before you send your dd there...find one that plays decent soccer but also is fun. I know plenty of girls who went on to play in college, but consider their hs playing days to be some of the best times of their lives.


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## gkrent

Sike said:


> Second, as bad as it is some places at the college level, it is even worse when I see parents putting their dd's in these situations at the youth level. We have all seen the behavior at the youngest ages of club soccer.  Parents are essentially telling their dd's that the behavior is normal/acceptable and it just isn't.


^^^This^^^  We cannot tolerate assholery at the youth level.  When you find that *great* coach, stick with them even if the team isn't at the top of the table.    

I feel fortunate that we broke ties with one youth coach (one who is well known in orange county and has quite the resume)...he showed his true colors when my daughter very graciously let him know she was moving on.  I really should have posted the email he wrote to a 16 year old girl on this forum so people would know what they were getting into with this guy.


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## crush

gkrent said:


> ^^^This^^^  We cannot tolerate assholery at the youth level.  When you find that *great* coach, stick with them even if the team isn't at the top of the table.
> 
> I feel fortunate that we broke ties with one youth coach (one who is well known in orange county and has quite the resume)...he showed his true colors when my daughter very graciously let him know she was moving on.  I really should have posted the email he wrote to a 16 year old girl on this forum so people would know what they were getting into with this guy.


I appreciate you sharing your dd story.  I have some emails and text from the past, plus my own eye witness accounts.  Imagine a top Doc or coach telling his players that they best better not tell their parents the going on's at practice.  And oh by the way, if any parent does call to complain or ask for for clarifications, they will be sitting on the bench in front of all the college coaches and YNT scouts looking for top talent.  Do you honestly think crush turned his cheek and said nothing about this BS rule?  Please, I have been after these type of asses for 6+ years and let me tell you, he hate me.  I also told one the top top female coaches in America that one of his coaches said this and that to the girls and nothing happen.  One guy yelled such crazy I'm shocked their still coaching.  By the way, I hope your dd finds her true calling and path.  GK life on earth at this level is insane and not easy.  I know many top GK and their parents ands the pressure these player feel are not the same as the other players.


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## Carlsbad7

gkrent said:


> ^^^This^^^  We cannot tolerate assholery at the youth level.  When you find that *great* coach, stick with them even if the team isn't at the top of the table.
> 
> I feel fortunate that we broke ties with one youth coach (one who is well known in orange county and has quite the resume)...he showed his true colors when my daughter very graciously let him know she was moving on.  I really should have posted the email he wrote to a 16 year old girl on this forum so people would know what they were getting into with this guy.


We were working with a coach once that was the new hot thing in town so nobody knew his "true colors" / background.

As we were working with him it became clear that he was coin operated by parents through privates, etc. Nope'd it out of there fairly quickly + just like I expected crazy parents jumped in at the opportunity + started showering the coach with goodies. Right now the crazy parents on that team have hit an equilibrium but it's just a matter of time before things explode. Those same parents have caused problems at every club they've been at + have hopped multiple times.

What's sad is I watch the kids + they just like playing + don't understand all the things going on at the coach / parent levels. Eventually the kids will get blindsided by something unethical the coach / parents do. It's just a matter of time before it happens.


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## oh canada

Talk to your kids (girls and boys) and make sure they know this sh*t goes on everywhere. College campuses should not be presumptive safehouses...









						UCLA to pay record of nearly $700M in doctor abuse lawsuits
					

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The University of California system announced Tuesday it will pay nearly $375 million to more than 300 women who said they were sexually abused by a UCLA gynecologist, bringing a record amount in total payouts by a public university in a wave of sexual misconduct scandals by...




					apnews.com
				




I've seen demeaning and verbally abusive coaches at all levels of club coaching. Most disappointing at the "top" clubs in SoCal. When your daughter is fighting back tears due to a coach's comments or behavior, you're failing her by leaving her there, thinking that it will get better. Or, it will be worth it in the long run. Wrong. Leave. The ego will never change.


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## FutbolHeidiHo

crush said:


> Well, it looks like they get to be the keystone cops and the private investigators and that is not good.  The pressure put on these athletes is wrong and abusive.  You also have to be concerned that one of these coaches will try and date your dd, marry them or at least hook up and I don't like that at all.  I get hate PMs when I go there but I think it's time we all help clean this abuse up.  I can't be the only one who see's all this crap!!  I know not all coaches are like this swim coach.  However, we need the good one's to start speaking up and not worry about media day.  Jimbo called out Nick.  Fear keeps so many from speaking up for fear of losing their job, position or spot on the team.  "My lips are sealed" they say because they don;t want to get labeled a trouble maker dad or get blacklisted for being a leader.


I have always wondered why Jerry Smith got a free pass at Santa Clara and nobody talks about that.  Gross.


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## outside!

gkrent said:


> ^^^This^^^  We cannot tolerate assholery at the youth level.  When you find that *great* coach, stick with them even if the team isn't at the top of the table.
> 
> I feel fortunate that we broke ties with one youth coach (one who is well known in orange county and has quite the resume)...he showed his true colors when my daughter very graciously let him know she was moving on.  I really should have posted the email he wrote to a 16 year old girl on this forum so people would know what they were getting into with this guy.


It's not too late to post the email if you still have it.


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## gkrent

FutbolHeidiHo said:


> I have always wondered why Jerry Smith got a free pass at Santa Clara and nobody talks about that.  Gross.


SAME


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## gkrent

outside! said:


> It's not too late to post the email if you still have it.


I’ll have to dig around the archives…it’s been a while but it’s a doozy!


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## crush

gkrent said:


> I’ll have to dig around the archives…it’s been a while but it’s a doozy!


I'm leaving the scene after 11 years.  Can you give initials?  I'm seriously out of here June 5th unless something big and awesome keeps me here.  I'm looking for truth.  My dd wrote an interesting bio paper about being "Fearless" for Senior project.  I was impressed and soccer was a part of being fearless. She is not finished and will share if it makes sense.  The teacher asked the students the following question.  The Essence of who I am?  My dd said Fearless.  I like that and yet is scares me as a parent.  I let her drive early on and boy can she drive


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## crush

gkrent said:


> ^^^This^^^  We cannot tolerate assholery at the youth level.  When you find that *great* coach, stick with them even if the team isn't at the top of the table.
> 
> I feel fortunate that we broke ties with one youth coach (one who is well known in orange county and has quite the resume)...he showed his true colors when my daughter very graciously let him know she was moving on.  I really should have posted the email he wrote to a 16 year old girl on this forum so people would know what they were getting into with this guy.


I still remember one of the top Guru's in soccer in OC talking nonsense to me.  I smelled a snake man and a man with way too much power.  He told me if my dd did privates with him and obeyed him and did what he says to do, he could call any college coach and tell them to pick my dd because his words are gold.  Total middleman coach. However, if dad calls him out for lying and just being a weirdo, he will also tell coaches to stay clear of my kid because I ask questions.  I have an idea who your dd dealt with and I think he needs to go.


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## Carlsbad7

crush said:


> I still remember one of the top Guru's in soccer in OC talking nonsense to me.  I smelled a snake man and a man with way too much power.  He told me if my dd did privates with him and obeyed him and did what he says to do, he could call any college coach and tell them to pick my dd because his words are gold.  Total middleman coach. However, if dad calls him out for lying and just being a weirdo, he will also tell coaches to stay clear of my kid because I ask questions.  I have an idea who your dd dealt with and I think he needs to go.


We all know how the game is played + once you've been around it for a while it's easy to see how coaches subvert official pathways forward into their best interest.

The trick to addressing the nonsense...
1. Make sure your kid gets good grades. If you have amazing grades you can get into almost any school with or without soccer
2. Watch coaches actions over what they say. If they cut + recruit 4-5 per season it's just a matter of time before your kid gets hit.
3. Remember that most kids don't know what a superteam is. They do know which teams they have friends on + have a good time playing with.
4. Remember that the top college soccer teams are a meat grinder. Coaches treat players like crap + press for unrealistic output. Is this how you want your kid to remember their college experience? Most Pro players make 50kish per year. Doesn't seem worth it.

If your kid plans to play in college getting onto a "decent" (whatever that means to you / your kid) team is the way to go for most players. 

It's always better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.


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## crush

Carlsbad7 said:


> We all know how the game is played + once you've been around it for a while it's easy to see how coaches subvert official pathways forward into their best interest.
> 
> The trick to addressing the nonsense...
> 1. Make sure your kid gets good grades. If you have amazing grades you can get into almost any school with or without soccer
> 2. Watch coaches actions over what they say. If they cut + recruit 4-5 per season it's just a matter of time before your kid gets hit.
> 3. Remember that most kids don't know what a superteam is. They do know which teams they have friends on + have a good time playing with.
> 4. Remember that the top college soccer teams are a meat grinder. Coaches treat players like crap + press for unrealistic output. Is this how you want your kid to remember their college experience? Most Pro players make 50kish per year. Doesn't seem worth it.
> 
> If your kid plans to play in college getting onto a "decent" (whatever that means to you / your kid) team is the way to go for most players.
> 
> It's always better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.


Hey bro, this was NEVER about college.  I signed my kid to play freaking soccer.  Its not my faught she was getting recruited in 7th grade and 8th grade.  I was shocked how freakinh intense all this soccer was.  Grades, SAT prep,  tutors, privates and so much more BS just to play a sport.  The pressure put on femalez is whack and not right.


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## Carlsbad7

crush said:


> Hey bro, this was NEVER about college.  I signed my kid to play freaking soccer.  Its not my faught she was getting recruited in 7th grade and 8th grade.  I was shocked how freakinh intense all this soccer was.  Grades, SAT prep,  tutors, privates and so much more BS just to play a sport.  The pressure put on femalez is whack and not right.


I think a lot of people are exactly like you when their kid first starts playing soccer.

Unfortunately over time they start looking at soccer as a the only way to get ahead + Clubs are right there to feed them a "path forward".

All I'm suggesting is if kids want to play in college great! Just understand that being on a superteam isn't always everything parents expect.


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## crush

Carlsbad7 said:


> I think a lot of people are exactly like you when their kid first starts playing soccer.
> 
> Unfortunately over time they start looking at soccer as a the only way to get ahead + Clubs are right there to feed them a "path forward".
> 
> All I'm suggesting is if kids want to play in college great! Just understand that being on a superteam isn't always everything parents expect.


No way man.  No one was like me, trust me   Anyone who knows me knows college was not preached in my house.  Hard work and no escuses was preached.  Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart.  Soccer is a hostage.  The top Guru in OC benched my kid because my kid made the mistake of being honest, saying she wasnt sure ahe wanted to attend college in order to play soccer in America after HS.  The look on the Guru face when I spoke to him was priceless.


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## eastbaysoccer

Neil should have been fired a long time ago.  These soccer programs cost colleges money and just need to be somewhat competitive and provide a wonderful athletic experience in the back drop of academics.


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## eastbaysoccer

crush said:


> Looks like the Swimming coach is super mean, allegedly.  Why are some coaches assholes?  Why do coaches treat other fellow humans like this?  WTF up you guys and read this.  You think it only happens in swimming?  My dd was told by a top coach that the more he yells at a player=the more I care for that player.  Yikes!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UC Berkeley swimmers allege coach Teri McKeever bullied and verbally abused them for years
> 
> 
> Swimmers describe a toxic culture that led to a number mental health issues and an unresponsive administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ocregister.com


If this happened in the classroom this would not fly.


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## crush

eastbaysoccer said:


> If this happened in the classroom this would not fly.


I was thinking about my office work days and even my college days.  No professor ever yelled like this at me or had so much control of my life and dreams.  I was salesman and also office sales manager for a few years in the Yellow Pages and no one went this far.  I do remember a yeller manager who wanted more from his sales reps and yelled at low performers.  Male or female, you got called out and embarrassed in front of the other sales members.  He got fired for being rude, yelling and then hitting on the same female reps at work sponsored Happy Hours.  A few girls complained and rightfully so.


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