# Calsouth NEEDS Paradigm Shift



## uburoi (May 14, 2017)

The driving needs to be curtailed and Cal South can help. This will reduce continued environmental impacts, traffic, safety, money, stress and time for all involved.  This weekend CRL is a case in point. The rainout forced a drive back to Temecula for mileage ranges from 40-180 miles in order for some teams to play a club geographically much closer. For us, we played a team that is 5 miles from us but  spent the entire day to do it.  This is absolutely unacceptable. Even without the rainout this would've been the case. 

Here is a possible alternative that could work for state/ national cup too,  unless there's a knockout stage where two games in to be played on the second day.  Day one when there are 2 games is a requirement for all teams. Day 2, allow teams to schedule locally. The referee could certify the game is played up to standard and sanctioned fields can be agreed upon  with club management in advance of the tournament. Again,  yesterday was a case in point. We should've had a field agreed-upon that we could've play on last Sunday, and that would've been much easier for all involved. 

 When I say paradigm shift, that's exactly what I mean. When initial scheduling is done, use the advanced software to tick the button that says local, or create this requirement in the system.  There are  a lot of teams now. This is not 2006. There is no need for everyone to drive so far all the time.  That means teams play teams geographically far from them on the first day  at a central location such as Silverlakes or Galway Downs, and the second day the local teams play each other  on a field that is much more convenient. The team with the higher point total chooses the venue. Cal South needs to take the lead in this. What is happening and has been happening is no longer sustainable in the environment in which we live - the roads are too crowded, it's too much stress for all involved.  I realize club sports is really a middle to upper-class endeavor; this will also allow those who are not as fortunate financially to participate much easier. That would help the soccer landscape for all of us. 

This shift supports the players of today, and the players and families of tomorrow.


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## full90 (May 14, 2017)

There should absolutely be a waiver that exists for Cal South events (at the minimum CRL) that both local teams can apply for and play the game locally. I do think it's too much heavy lifting for State Cups and National Cups with the bracketing and group play...I like your idea of if it is a single game day and both teams have a mechanism where they request a local venue. It might be too much to ask as it's short notice to get a field and ref etc etc. But for CRL it's a no brainer. To drive out of the city to play a local team on a one-off league like CRL, which really does it's own thing and is a finite group of teams is stupid.


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## Frank (May 14, 2017)

Csl Premier does a good job making sure that the San Diego teams don't have to come to Irvine to play each other. Shouldn't be that hard for CRL league as well. The play in tournament I can see them not doing it.


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## uburoi (May 14, 2017)

It's more of a global change in thinking. Scdsl also is able to do this. There are always big tournaments and they are awesome, but if locations were slightly more flexible more would participate.


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## Night Owl (May 14, 2017)

Competitive Soccer has it's dedication and comitment that you sign up and pay for.

AYSO/ City Rec in your neiborhood have great programs that are usually close to anyone that does not want to dive out of their confort Zone. You cam play up if you need your child to be challenged with competition.


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## zebrafish (May 14, 2017)

The figurative driver is $$$. That means the literal driver is you.

Until that changes, don't expect much to be different.

How we've handled this in certain cases is that our team has given our club some pushback about playing tournaments far away, and requested a closer tournament instead. At least we don't end up traveling far. That has been met with some success.


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## wildcat66 (May 14, 2017)

Night Owl said:


> Competitive Soccer has it's dedication and comitment that you sign up and pay for.
> 
> AYSO/ City Rec in your neiborhood have great programs that are usually close to anyone that does not want to dive out of their confort Zone. You cam play up if you need your child to be challenged with competition.


You have to love this attitude that many of the soccer parents seem to have...lol..."we are stupid enough to do so if you don't like it then dont play here"  Nothing is more frustrating than to have to drive to some out of the way field to play a team that is 15 minutes away from you.  I remember going to Lancaster to play when we (a Temecula team) played a Carlsbad team, a San Diego team, and another Temecula team in our group.  Between us and the other teams we would have had no trouble securing a field for the playing and everyone would have saved a 3 hour drive plus hotels....I know that is what we "signed up for" says the kool-aid drinking soccer parent who lives vicariously through their kid.  If you dont like it don't play....common sense has never been a common virtue among the Cal South or youth soccer crowd...blind obedience and money has.


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## Night Owl (May 14, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> You have to love this attitude that many of the soccer parents seem to have...lol..."we are stupid enough to do so if you don't like it then dont play here"  Nothing is more frustrating than to have to drive to some out of the way field to play a team that is 15 minutes away from you.  I remember going to Lancaster to play when we (a Temecula team) played a Carlsbad team, a San Diego team, and another Temecula team in our group.  Between us and the other teams we would have had no trouble securing a field for the playing and everyone would have saved a 3 hour drive plus hotels....I know that is what we "signed up for" says the kool-aid drinking soccer parent who lives vicariously through their kid.  If you dont like it don't play....common sense has never been a common virtue among the Cal South or youth soccer crowd...blind obedience and money has.


Please join CalSouth board and make a difference for us.


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## wildcat66 (May 14, 2017)

Night Owl said:


> Please join CalSouth board and make a difference for us.


No thanks, my DD is just about done and have no desire to continue my soccer career after she is gone...too many crazy parents, greedy clubs, shady DOCs and wishywashy coaches.


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## espola (May 14, 2017)

Night Owl said:


> Please join CalSouth board and make a difference for us.


There is no way to "join the board".  The electors for Cal South BOD positions are limited to the clubs who are the real "members".  It takes about a decade or more of volunteer work for a person to get ot a point where he is recognized by enough clubs to have a chance at election.


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## wildcat66 (May 14, 2017)

Here is the complaint that I have had along the same line.  In the Temecula/Murrieta area we have Arsenal, Legends, Temecula United, Temecula FC, Temecula Hawks, Murrieta Surf, and Southwest.  Do you suppose these teams will scrimmage each other in a friendly?  No.  If one club hosts a tournament will the other clubs enter teams?  Rarely.  Why not? I asked to the coach .  The answer...What if they beat us?  Then all the parents will be taking their kids there next year.  The coaches from ____ are always trying to snatch up our girls, we dont want to give them a chance.  They have been directed by their directors to not play other local teams if possible....crazy to us normal people but not soccer people..


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## Night Owl (May 14, 2017)

I heard you also have to be sponcered by someone on the board as well. 
Kinda reminds you of the mafia movies "Friend of ours"


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## uburoi (May 14, 2017)

These governing bodies like Cal South, Scdsl are all closed systems to us parents and as was said above,  The only say we have is to participate selectively when we can.  Times are changing and thus these institutions should adapt over time to the needs of their customers.  I do believe there is also an ethical reason as well. Traffic is getting worse, resources are not unlimited. I love it that my kids play, but when I tell  people at work that I drove to the end of the world and back on the weekend, I'm not bragging. I'm lamenting the fact that it doesn't always have to be like that. People complain about cal south all the time so to some I'm just another complainer, but the reality is that the system can be adjusted without changing it completely. Isn't DA a way for some organizations to find another way that works better for them?


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## coachrefparent (May 14, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> You have to love this attitude that many of the soccer parents seem to have...lol..."we are stupid enough to do so if you don't like it then dont play here"  Nothing is more frustrating than to have to drive to some out of the way field to play a team that is 15 minutes away from you.  I remember going to Lancaster to play when we (a Temecula team) played a Carlsbad team, a San Diego team, and another Temecula team in our group.  Between us and the other teams we would have had no trouble securing a field for the playing and everyone would have saved a 3 hour drive plus hotels....I know that is what we "signed up for" says the kool-aid drinking soccer parent who lives vicariously through their kid.  If you dont like it don't play....common sense has never been a common virtue among the Cal South or youth soccer crowd...blind obedience and money has.


The flip side of this is that many players and parents enjoy the large-scale tournament sites, and traveling on occasion for a weekend. We enjoy seeing players on other teams/clubs (kid's friends) in between our games, talking to other parents and friends at all different age levels. You can't do this when you are all scattered at different sites. Traveling for tournaments as a team (staying together, playing at a pool, going out to eat together, etc.) also is what most of these kids wiill remember most about their youth soccer days. 

I have been in tournaments as both a coach and parent where we have been relegated to the "high school field", while everyone else plays at the large tournament site. Its simply not as fun for the participating teams. 

But I get how traveling far for 1 game against a local club would be a drag.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (May 15, 2017)

It's about money.  Parking fees and concessions.  If you play locally then the field operators don't get the revenue.


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## Sons of Pitches (May 15, 2017)

http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Board Meeting Minutes/2015AgendaItemSubmissionFormV3.pdf

Submit your Agenda Item to Cal South.  Post it after you submit it, maybe if enough people support it, they will actually look for solutions.


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## timbuck (May 15, 2017)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> It's about money.  Parking fees and concessions.  If you play locally then the field operators don't get the revenue.


Probably true. I'm sure there is some agreement with silverlakes and other venues that they'll have X number of events there per year.


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## espola (May 15, 2017)

Sons of Pitches said:


> http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Board Meeting Minutes/2015AgendaItemSubmissionFormV3.pdf
> 
> Submit your Agenda Item to Cal South.  Post it after you submit it, maybe if enough people support it, they will actually look for solutions.


And it will be along time before any one knows about it.  They haven't posted meeting minutes for anythin in 2017 yet.

http://www.calsouth.com/en/minutes-board/


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## MWN (May 15, 2017)

@uburoi, the economics are not in favor of your plan.  Here is why:

To the extent a regional tournament (State and National Cup) can be broken up into regional play locations, while still maintaining the balance of the brackets in a fair manner ... great its a fine idea, as long as you/teams/parents are prepared to pay the additional costs.  

A venue such as Silverlakes can easily handle tournaments of up to 288 teams (24 fields x 6 games per day = 144 games or 144 team @ 2 games/day or 288 teams @ 1 game/day) and Cal South's deal with Silverlakes is a "complex" deal, which means Cal South pays over $16,195 per day for the facility. (see, https://emma.msrb.org/ER958862-ER749578-ER1151172.pdf, page 115 for rates).  The formula is 6 games per 11v11 field and 9 games per 7v7 or 9v9 per field.

Cal South needs to centralize as many games at one facility because its means fewer costs/expenses in field marshalls, referee coordinators, staff, EMTs/Athletic Trainers, etc.  The use of Silverlakes and the other complexes just makes good economic sense if you are trying to keep registration fees low and centralize the management.  In addition, these complexes do a lot of the heavy lifting by delivering  fully set up fields (lined, goals with nets and no holes, corner flags, etc.).

Once Cal South (or another league, CSL or SCDSL or USYS) pulls the trigger on using a large facility, it needs to fill up that facility to the max if it is going to keep its costs under control.  

The solution you needs to present is that if teams want to opt out of going to the large facility for CRL play-in, etc. those teams need to be prepared to undertake the additional costs and expenses of:  

Acquiring the field location ($100-$650).
Field set up ($150/field).
hiring an EMT and Athletic trainer at $35-$45/per hour person (4 hour minimum)
Cost of Field Marshall ($20/hour, plus travel and lodging)
Cost of additional Referee Coordinator ($20/hour) (Ref Crew was already included in the tournament fee).


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## MWN (May 15, 2017)

timbuck said:


> Probably true. I'm sure there is some agreement with silverlakes and other venues that they'll have X number of events there per year.


You are correct, at least with Silverlakes, Cal South is required to use the facility at least 13 times per year (see, Page 111, Section 4.1 of https://emma.msrb.org/ER958862-ER749578-ER1151172.pdf).

It really comes down to this: Does Cal South and the greater SoCal soccer community want large venues that invest in the fields and are available to host regional tournaments?  If yes, these facilities need to be able to pay for their expenses and make a profit, which means charging for parking and higher field fees.  If no, then be prepared to play on crappy public parks, school fields and go to tournaments where you will spend as much money on gas traveling to multiple fields than you would to simply pay for parking.


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## wildcat66 (May 15, 2017)

MWN said:


> @uburoi, the economics are not in favor of your plan.  Here is why:
> 
> To the extent a regional tournament (State and National Cup) can be broken up into regional play locations, while still maintaining the balance of the brackets in a fair manner ... great its a fine idea, as long as you/teams/parents are prepared to pay the additional costs.
> 
> ...


1. Most clubs already have fields that they pay yearly fees to lease so there would be no additional fees for set up and acquiring since it is already done.  
2. EMT and trainers aren't present during the season or any other time the field is being used i.e. Practice, friendlies, other tnmts so why needed now?  Coaches are required to be first aid qualled and someone seriously injured is a 911 call anyway.
3. Why is a field marshal required if both teams agree on venue?
4. Teams can coordinate refs much like they do for other games...


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## Dos Equis (May 15, 2017)

MWN said:


> You are correct, at least with Silverlakes, Cal South is required to use the facility at least 13 times per year (see, Page 111, Section 4.1 of https://emma.msrb.org/ER958862-ER749578-ER1151172.pdf).
> 
> It really comes down to this: Does Cal South and the greater SoCal soccer community want large venues that invest in the fields and are available to host regional tournaments?  If yes, these facilities need to be able to pay for their expenses and make a profit, which means charging for parking and higher field fees.  If no, then be prepared to play on crappy public parks, school fields and go to tournaments where you will spend as much money on gas traveling to multiple fields than you would to simply pay for parking.


Brilliant post.  I agree Calsouth needs the change, just not sure this is the issue to make that happen.

A few years back, Calsouth let then FWRL(CRL) games be scheduled locally by clubs, and coach conflicts and field issues resulted in games being postponed, and some were never scheduled before the season ended (the teams in the bottom tended to lack incentive to make them happen).  People/clubs demanded that Calsouth provide fields and definitive dates for this important league, given its cost.  CRL did that. The grass is always greener.


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## MWN (May 15, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> 1. Most clubs already have fields that they pay yearly fees to lease so there would be no additional fees for set up and acquiring since it is already done.
> 2. EMT and trainers aren't present during the season or any other time the field is being used i.e. Practice, friendlies, other tnmts so why needed now?  Coaches are required to be first aid qualled and someone seriously injured is a 911 call anyway.
> 3. Why is a field marshal required if both teams agree on venue?
> 4. Teams can coordinate refs much like they do for other games...


In responding, CRL was the issue, so I assume we are talking about teams that are Flight 1 (SCDSL) or Gold or Premiere (CSL) in the upper-echelon and playing against other higher-level teams.  My response assumes these teams are made up of athletes with a future and not Flight 3 or Bronze or Presidio teams:

1 (fields), if that is the case, then great.  However, most clubs have to contract with their fields when needed, especially if playing at a School District field and don't have standing orders.

2 (EMT and Trainers), for State and National Cup, CRL, ECNL, CSL Premiere and the DA (i.e. high-level level games) EMTs and Trainers are available.  I can understand no medical on the field for practices and/or scrimmages and/or Flight 3 or Bronze play (i.e. glorified recreational ball), but not having medical on the field for Flight 2 and Silver and above when kids with futures are playing is negligent.  The Development Academy can't even start their games until the trainer has introduced himself to the coaches and requires 2 trainers for every 4 fields when they have their showcases.  Coaches and Parents have an inherent conflict of interest (tend to encourage the athlete to tough it out and play) and are definitely NOT first aid qualified.  I have my Grade 8 and E-License and take the "Concussion" Certificate every year, which makes be barely qualified to state "Hmmm, looks like a concussion, better see the EMT or Trainer."

3 Field Marshall is required to settle disputes, confirm eligibility of players and coaches, report scores, take protests, etc.  The Field Marshall also enters yellow and red cards and handles the reporting.

4 Referees.  Yes and No.  This is not a scrimmage.  The Referee Coordinator for Cal South is Leo.  Leo contracts with the various referee associations and provides the coordinators.  Each association makes the assignments and the assignor is paid by Cal South.  The on field coordinators are an important element whenever there are more than a few crews and operate as a backup referee in the event one is injured or doesn't show.  For low level games with little on the line, I agree that a coordinator is not needed.  For high-level games then you need a coordinator if you have more than a few fields, or a very experienced Ref if a one off game.  When parents or coaches are removed, its the Coordinator's job to see to it that happens.  Now, the problem you are going to run into is the best crews are "supposed" to be assigned to the more important games and typically are assigned to at least two, but preferably three games.   If you start running multiple venues with just a game to accommodate two local teams then expect to get a bottom of the barrel crew (i.e. whoever wasn't good enough to get assigned to the tournament venue)


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## wildcat66 (May 15, 2017)

MWN said:


> In responding, CRL was the issue, so I assume we are talking about teams that are Flight 1 (SCDSL) or Gold or Premiere (CSL) in the upper-echelon and playing against other higher-level teams.  My response assumes these teams are made up of athletes with a future and not Flight 3 or Bronze or Presidio teams:
> 
> 1 (fields), if that is the case, then great.  However, most clubs have to contract with their fields when needed, especially if playing at a School District field and don't have standing orders.
> 
> ...


And this is why soccer will never reach the same level of popularity as it is in other countries.  Organizations like Cal South, CRL etc are the ones who enacted the very regulations and practices that make decentralizing control difficult.  The players and parents weren't screaming for a field marshal or ref coordinator etc...The governing bodies have turned it into a beurocratic nightmare for two teams to play each other.  Does it have to be a perfectly level turf field with pristine markings ?  There is no field marshals during leag season, people get kicked out all the time. The refs handle it and if if goes beyond that then the police are called.  If,the over regulated over centralized big venue dynamic is deemed nesesary by the people well then leave it alone and quit your complaining.


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