# Sportsmanship



## mommato2girls (Sep 18, 2016)

Disappointed doesn't even begin to adequately express what I am thinking right now. Before I get the 'you must be new to this' or 'this is just the way club soccer is' I will say, yes I'm relatively new to this world. We've only been involved in this crazy world for 3 years but I am so put off by the poor sportsmanship I see at all age levels. Having a younger and slightly older kid I'm really disheartened by 8 yr olds trash talking their own goalies (just saw this at a tournament Labor day weekend), coaches screaming like luantics at the kids along with the parents and wondering why the 8 year old is confused? Then fast fwd to u13s, a players mom telling the rest of the parents, 'that she's done, could care less about the rest of the season, her daughters already moved on' to girls on the field snickering when someone falls down, to a coach yelling at a player to 'take that #blank down'. Wth is going on seriously? This is crazy. Everytime my kiddos play I say go out there and play hard and have fun. They can win a game and if they play like little sh*ts I will call them on it. I can't condone this crap behavior. I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me today, then I realized it's just a cumulation of little hostile things from parents, coaches, kids etc and we are what in the 2nd week of fall league? Sigh.


----------



## zebrafish (Sep 18, 2016)

Saw a parent from my DD's opposing team scream at their 9 year old daughter in angry voice with psycho eyes, "we need to win this game! You can't let her get by you! You need to stop her next time!"

Today, I had a parent on my DD's team actually shout out during a game that my kid made a mistake. Yell at your own kid if you want, but don't yell at other people's kids. Fortunately, she says that she tunes out all the noise. Need to talk to the coach about that one.


----------



## etc1217 (Sep 18, 2016)

I hate to say it but...it doesn't get any better in the older brackets, it actually gets worse.  My DD has told me that parents/coaches have talked s#!+ to her from the sidelines while playing...fortunately, my DD has thick skin when it comes to that...the girls on the field are worse.  Some girls cuss at each other under their breath so the refs can't hear them.  It's unfortunate but that sports for you, in the heat of the game all hell breaks loose and everyone loses composure and just starts yelling whatever comes to mind.  I haven't lost it yet but I do yell but it's to cheer my DD's team and of course, every now and then, yell "pressure" or  " shoot the ball" or yell at the refs for a bad call.

In any sport you are going to have fanatic parents/coaches/players, it just their passion of the game coming through.  Just have to teach your kid to tune them out and just play their game.  Unfortunately, there is not much that can be done about it.  You can have that talk with the coach or parent but in reality nothing will really change.


----------



## bababooey (Sep 19, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> Disappointed doesn't even begin to adequately express what I am thinking right now. Before I get the 'you must be new to this' or 'this is just the way club soccer is' I will say, yes I'm relatively new to this world. We've only been involved in this crazy world for 3 years but I am so put off by the poor sportsmanship I see at all age levels. Having a younger and slightly older kid I'm really disheartened by 8 yr olds trash talking their own goalies (just saw this at a tournament Labor day weekend), coaches screaming like luantics at the kids along with the parents and wondering why the 8 year old is confused? Then fast fwd to u13s, a players mom telling the rest of the parents, 'that she's done, could care less about the rest of the season, her daughters already moved on' to girls on the field snickering when someone falls down, to a coach yelling at a player to 'take that #blank down'. Wth is going on seriously? This is crazy. Everytime my kiddos play I say go out there and play hard and have fun. They can win a game and if they play like little sh*ts I will call them on it. I can't condone this crap behavior. I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me today, then I realized it's just a cumulation of little hostile things from parents, coaches, kids etc and we are what in the 2nd week of fall league? Sigh.


I don't condone this behavior either, but you state that you have been in club soccer for three years and you still have not figured out that some coaches and parents are nuts? I think most of us figured it out in season one.

There is no way you will change the crazy parent or coach, so you have a choice to make....accept it as a part of the club soccer landscape or choose to take your kids away from club soccer scene.

I don't understand why parents cannot be quiet during the game and observe. I have no problems what-so-ever when parents cheer goals, but to sit on the sidelines or stands and yell to the players on what they need to do or worse yet second-guess every referee call is just dumb. To me, the coach needs to set the tone with the parents at the beginning of the season. My dd's coach did this and as a result, our parents are much more calm on the sidelines.


----------



## timbuck (Sep 19, 2016)

I think I know where the craziness starts.
Our u12 game this Saturday was set in between some fields for U6 AYSO teams.  
If you get one crazy mom screaming for her son/daugther the whole game, the kids with the quiet parents feel left out.  So they chime in to scream for their kid.  And their kid plays a little bit harder when mom screams, so mom keeps screaming.


----------



## ajaxahi (Sep 19, 2016)

Yes a coach talk usually helps.  Most people quiet down for a while, and then if you are the one fool still yelling you really stand out!

What many parents seem to forget and occasionally need to be reminded is the game is not about them, it's about the kids!  If you are yelling at your kid, or the ref, or someone else's kid, then you are involving yourself in something that is not at all about you.  I know it's hard for many to accept, but your glory days are over.  You are there to drive, give your kids love and support, and maybe help put up the canopy.  That's it!  So we all just need to try our best to chill out, sit back, and enjoy our kids playing this beautiful game.

By the way, some of my favorite things often yelled from the sidelines...  "That was your fault!" and "Do something!"  Nice.  Way to support your kid.  Don't mean to hijack the thread, but would be interested in hearing other people's favorite things overheard.  I'm sure there's some good ones!


----------



## mommato2girls (Sep 19, 2016)

bababooey said:


> I don't condone this behavior either, but you state that you have been in club soccer for three years and you still have not figured out that some coaches and parents are nuts? I think most of us figured it out in season one.
> 
> There is no way you will change the crazy parent or coach, so you have a choice to make....accept it as a part of the club soccer landscape or choose to take your kids away from club soccer scene.
> 
> I don't understand why parents cannot be quiet during the game and observe. I have no problems what-so-ever when parents cheer goals, but to sit on the sidelines or stands and yell to the players on what they need to do or worse yet second-guess every referee call is just dumb. To me, the coach needs to set the tone with the parents at the beginning of the season. My dd's coach did this and as a result, our parents are much more calm on the sidelines.


I think we were really lucky our first 2 years, we played with the same coach and don't get me wrong we had tellers but not the negativity I've experienced this year. And definitely not the bad behavior towards the refs. I do agree the coach sets the tone. Our coach now is not very verbal but he allows poor sideline behavior. Honestly we've been to state cup finals twice and I've seen better behavior from the parents/coaches/players there under more high stakes games than local weekend games now. Even poor sportsmanship towards players on the same team. That one baffles me the most. I hate to say it but I am looking fwd to the end of this season.


----------



## mommato2girls (Sep 19, 2016)

Oh and my favorites heard just thus weekend are 'we can just go home if you didn't come to play soccer', 'you're letting the fat girl outrun you', and the kicker, 'take her out, quickly, she's the only good one on that team, then you guys will win!' Some very embarrassingly from my own sideline:/


----------



## socalkdg (Sep 19, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> Oh and my favorites heard just thus weekend are 'we can just go home if you didn't come to play soccer', 'you're letting the fat girl outrun you', and the kicker, 'take her out, quickly, she's the only good one on that team, then you guys will win!' Some very embarrassingly from my own sideline:/


Wow, just wow.   If I heard one of my parents from the team I coach say that, it wouldn't be pretty.   Daughters club team the worst we parents comment on would be like "we need to get faster" or our "passing isn't sharp".  

I've been known to yell instructions at my daughter, but last two games kept my mouth shut.  Not always easy, but she knows if she makes a mistake and her instincts are getting better all time.  Doesn't need me screwing it up.  It is easy to get caught up in the minute, just as we might yell at the TV when we watch a sporting event, it can spill over onto the soccer field as we watch the games.


----------



## etc1217 (Sep 19, 2016)

I will admit, I do get loud at games but again it is to cheer my DD's team.  My DD just laughs it off, I'll yell  "Go, (name of any player on the team who has the ball) or (the club name)", Or  "You can do it!!" But it is all positive for my DD's team.  (What do you expect from an ex-high school cheerleader.)

This past weekend, our parents sat in bleachers with the opposing team's parents literally right next to us.  They were bashing our girls on almost every penalty that was called against their team.  It was hard not to say anything to them and not take it offensively, especially because some of it was directed at my DD.
But I just kept cheering my DD's team on and tried to ignore the comments.  Sorry to say but it's mostly the Dads that make the offensive comments, the moms are the cheering section.


----------



## timbuck (Sep 19, 2016)

At least you were in the bleachers, so the kids can't hear anyway. 
On a full sized field, unless a kid is right along the touchline, they can't hear much anyway.


----------



## Mystery Train (Sep 19, 2016)

Something must have been in the air this weekend.  Was there a full moon?  My daughter's team played a very chippy game on Sunday. And the parents were screaming all sorts of BS.  We have a few girls who seem to always get into altercations.  One of them knocked someone off the ball (clean, no foul) and cleared it.  Then there is some kicking, words exchanged and they get in each other's faces and our player shoves the other one away.  The ref sees it, stops play, and yellow cards our player.  Probably the right move.  Our team's parents are going nuts because they thought the other girl started it.  The other team's parents were going ape s*#@ because it was only a yellow.  One guy was screaming "AUTOMATIC RED CARD!!" over and over at the ref.    Then our girls started shouting back, and apparently some of our parents, too (I was on the opposite sideline with our coach).  Then the opposing team's parents yelled back at the players to "shut up and stop playing dirty."  After the other team won the girls shouted taunts at our team right before the handshake line, "losers" and "hope you enjoyed the game," were two that I made out.  Of course, our girls shout right back.  Luckily both coaches were having none of it, got everybody to shut up and made them shake hands anyway.  I'll give the other coach extra credit for yelling at his parents to shut up too, but yeah, it made me kind of sick to my stomach.  This is all on us: the soccer parents.  We have to set better examples.


----------



## mommato2girls (Sep 19, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> I will admit, I do get loud at games but again it is to cheer my DD's team.  My DD just laughs it off, I'll yell  "Go, (name of any player on the team who has the ball) or (the club name)", Or  "You can do it!!" But it is all positive for my DD's team.  (What do you expect from an ex-high school cheerleader.)
> 
> This past weekend, our parents sat in bleachers with the opposing team's parents literally right next to us.  They were bashing our girls on almost every penalty that was called against their team.  It was hard not to say anything to them and not take it offensively, especially because some of it was directed at my DD.
> But I just kept cheering my DD's team on and tried to ignore the comments.  Sorry to say but it's mostly the Dads that make the offensive comments, the moms are the cheering section.


Agreed! The dad's were the worst this weekend!!! It kills me that the coach doesn't say a word:/


----------



## ALT_Dad (Sep 19, 2016)

I was at a game this weekend watching friends play one another and socializing.  The club director for one team was on the bench with the coach.  Their keeper let a goal get by her playing aggressively and decisively and her own team parents made an audible comment about the goal.  The director calmly walked over to his parents talked to a few of them and one dad was asked to leave.  Unfortunately, didn't hear what the dad said because I was on the other side with the keepers dad. Was pretty interesting to see the director take charge.


----------



## Dominic (Sep 19, 2016)

Unfortunately it can get worse when the kids start intentionally fouling each other hard at about U15.


----------



## ALT_Dad (Sep 19, 2016)

U15? Try a dirty 06 girls team where one player alone pulled a striker in by the jersey and bit her, executed  a flailing double spinning punch followed by a kick (right after the ref turned her back), and kicked, punched and elbowed girls multiple times...the mom was heard telling her after the game, those girls didn't want you on the field, you were awesome, just keep playing your game! Sad thing is the girl had speed and some talent when she wanted to use it.


----------



## clueless parent (Sep 20, 2016)

Mommato2girls, yes some parents are nuts.  In my experience, the nutty parents create dreadful scenes at games.  Rarely is the behavior addressed during the game.  The reasons are numerous and combine to create a perfect storm.  The coach, while responsible for his/her sideline, is actually coaching the game.  The coach is conflicted between coaching and dealing with the sideline.  S/he is further conflicted by the fact that the nutty parent's child is a key player on the team.  Add to the mix that the coach and other parents do not want to punish the child for his/her parent's horrid conduct.  That child goes home with that lunatic.  The parents take the lead from the coach.  From the perspective of the other parents on the sideline, the coach's inaction sends a sign to the parents that this conduct is accepted.  When a star's parent acts horribly and is not sanctioned, the other parents rightly get the message to stand down.  Moreover, when a nutty parent is enraged at a game, it may well be a poor time to approach the parent.  It is understandable why there is complete inaction by the coach, club, and parents at the game during the incident.

My frustration comes after the game.  During the week while tempers are in check and children are not present, that is the time for the coaches and club's leadership to address that nutty parent.  This is the time when the leadership drops the ball.  These abusive individuals need to meet with club leadership and hear different perspectives on their conduct.  It could really help.  Unfortunately, it does not happen with some/many coaches and clubs.  Each is hoping that last weekend's scene was a blip on the screen.  Too often, the scene repeats itself week after week.


----------



## CharlieGirl (Sep 22, 2016)

I actually heard a parent on the opposing team say out loud that he hoped our coach's "heart would burst" and he would die right there on the sideline.  Really, that was probably one of the most horrible things I've ever heard someone say on the sidelines, but I have heard many examples similar to those described here already.  Personally, I've noticed that the quieter we've become (me and my husband) the better my son plays.  It frees him up to play for himself, his team, and his coach.  I'm lucky enough that my boy plays for a coach who seems to set a very good example, and that's something I appreciate.


----------



## gauchosean (Sep 22, 2016)

My son aged out last year but I found the years u16-18 to be the calmest years for both parents and coaches.  The boys could get intense when the adrenaline and testosterone got flowing but overall the spectator intensity declined dramatically. The final year I remember walking around Manchester Surf Cup, the older boys were playing and sidelines were for the most part intense but quiet; then going over to the youngers and realizing how bad it used to be. There are twice as many parents crammed onto a much shorter sideline all of them losing their shit on every play and call. I do believe that the coaches being on the opposite side from parents have contributed to the some of the bad behavior. When the coach was on the same side they had to deal with it now it is on the manager. One of my favorite moments from many years ago, think it was u10 was coach pulling a kid off the field when his dad was yelling and telling the kid as he came off the field, "go find out what your Dad thinks I should be doing."  He said this loudly in front of everyone, message sent and received. As well, at the olders ages most of the team managers have been at it quite a few years, know their parents and are not afraid to deal with them when the get out of line.


----------



## Laced (Sep 22, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> My son aged out last year but I found the years u16-18 to be the calmest years for both parents and coaches.  The boys could get intense when the adrenaline and testosterone got flowing but overall the spectator intensity declined dramatically. The final year I remember walking around Manchester Surf Cup, the older boys were playing and sidelines were for the most part intense but quiet; then going over to the youngers and realizing how bad it used to be. There are twice as many parents crammed onto a much shorter sideline all of them losing their shit on every play and call. I do believe that the coaches being on the opposite side from parents have contributed to the some of the bad behavior. When the coach was on the same side they had to deal with it now it is on the manager. One of my favorite moments from many years ago, think it was u10 was coach pulling a kid off the field when his dad was yelling and telling the kid as he came off the field, "go find out what your Dad thinks I should be doing."  He said this loudly in front of everyone, message sent and received. As well, at the olders ages most of the team managers have been at it quite a few years, know their parents and are not afraid to deal with them when the get out of line.


No doubt the dad was out of line, but the coach was a jerk too. Dealing with the dad is fine, but embarrassing the kid publicly for his dad's behavior is not. Adults - coaches, parents and refs - should all remember that it's not their game.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 22, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> My son aged out last year but I found the years u16-18 to be the calmest years for both parents and coaches.  The boys could get intense when the adrenaline and testosterone got flowing but overall the spectator intensity declined dramatically. The final year I remember walking around Manchester Surf Cup, the older boys were playing and sidelines were for the most part intense but quiet; then going over to the youngers and realizing how bad it used to be. There are twice as many parents crammed onto a much shorter sideline all of them losing their shit on every play and call. I do believe that the coaches being on the opposite side from parents have contributed to the some of the bad behavior. When the coach was on the same side they had to deal with it now it is on the manager. One of my favorite moments from many years ago, think it was u10 was coach pulling a kid off the field when his dad was yelling and telling the kid as he came off the field, "go find out what your Dad thinks I should be doing."  He said this loudly in front of everyone, message sent and received. As well, at the olders ages most of the team managers have been at it quite a few years, know their parents and are not afraid to deal with them when the get out of line.


I have found that the team managers can be a great asset when the teams and parents are on different sidelines.  I will brief the coach and manager at the same time.  I tell them something along the lines of, "I would prefer you (manager) take care of the spectators so I do not have to interrupt the game to have the coach walk all the way across the field just to tell some parent to either shut up or leave.  So, please do what is needed to keep them under control."  The other tool I employ is a little deception.  I tell the coach, "Just humor me if I come over to you and start talking about the weather of some taco shop near the field.  I will point in the general direction of the parents behaving badly.  If you could just either yell at them to be quiet or send the manager, I would greatly appreciate it."  At Blues Cup I went up to one of the managers because he had a few parents yelling at players from the other team.  Before I could say anything he said, "I heard them and sent (manager) over to shut them up."  Then he starts to point in the direction of the spectators and asks me, How far away is Stone Brewery?"  We talked about that for a few seconds than I restarted the game and we continued play with no comments from the sideline.  

I have seen numerous players over the years, usually high school age players, tell their parents to shut up.  I had to Yellow card a HS player a couple years ago because she told her dad who was sitting in the bleachers to, "Shut the F%#k up."


----------



## Laced (Sep 22, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I have found that the team managers can be a great asset when the teams and parents are on different sidelines.  I will brief the coach and manager at the same time.  I tell them something along the lines of, "I would prefer you (manager) take care of the spectators so I do not have to interrupt the game to have the coach walk all the way across the field just to tell some parent to either shut up or leave.  So, please do what is needed to keep them under control."  The other tool I employ is a little deception.  I tell the coach, "Just humor me if I come over to you and start talking about the weather of some taco shop near the field.  I will point in the general direction of the parents behaving badly.  If you could just either yell at them to be quiet or send the manager, I would greatly appreciate it."  At Blues Cup I went up to one of the managers because he had a few parents yelling at players from the other team.  Before I could say anything he said, "I heard them and sent (manager) over to shut them up."  Then he starts to point in the direction of the spectators and asks me, How far away is Stone Brewery?"  We talked about that for a few seconds than I restarted the game and we continued play with no comments from the sideline.
> 
> I have seen numerous players over the years, usually high school age players, tell their parents to shut up.  I had to Yellow card a HS player a couple years ago because she told her dad who was sitting in the bleachers to, "Shut the F%#k up."


As a team manager, I'm not sure if it's our role to police the sidelines. Fortunately, it's not an issue I've ever had to deal with. I'd like to hear what other managers have to say. There may not be a remedy for every wrong.


----------



## espola (Sep 22, 2016)

Laced said:


> As a team manager, I'm not sure if it's our role to police the sidelines. Fortunately, it's not an issue I've ever had to deal with. I'd like to hear what other managers have to say. There may not be a remedy for every wrong.


Our team managers (including me when I had my turn) kept a supply of lollipops to hand out to those parents who needed something else to occupy their mouths.


----------



## ALT_Dad (Sep 23, 2016)

espola said:


> Our team managers (including me when I had my turn) kept a supply of lollipops to hand out to those parents who needed something else to occupy their mouths.


I will have to use the Telly Savales technique (for you young ones, he always had a lollipop in his shows) and the standard seeds.  I have been told by my daughter's first club coach that I was ultimately responsible to keep parents under control as the manager.  Tough to do with passionate, outspoken parents of (wait for it)....7 year old girls!  Thankfully parents of 10 year old girls on new team are much easier to work with...thanks for the idea!


----------



## timbuck (Sep 24, 2016)

Sad moment last night.  I was playing in a low level coed adult game.  Lots of families come out to watch their parents.  Only 1 ref showed up (we usually have 2 ARs also). He did a pretty good job for running a solo. 
He calls a play offside (which is really hard to see where running a solo at night under the lights).  A few players mumble that it was a bad call. 
But then the elementary aged kids on the sideline start yelling "terrible call ref".  "How is that offside". "Oh my god that's the worst call ever". 

I wonder where they learned that from?


----------



## zebrafish (Sep 24, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Sad moment last night.  I was playing in a low level coed adult game.  Lots of families come out to watch their parents.  Only 1 ref showed up (we usually have 2 ARs also). He did a pretty good job for running a solo.
> He calls a play offside (which is really hard to see where running a solo at night under the lights).  A few players mumble that it was a bad call.
> But then the elementary aged kids on the sideline start yelling "terrible call ref".  "How is that offside". "Oh my god that's the worst call ever".
> 
> I wonder where they learned that from?


Were kids screaming at their parents "take down the fat guy!" and "we need to win this game!" and "don't do that again!" ???


----------



## soccerchaffeur (Sep 26, 2016)

Our daughter played in an 06 match this weekend in Murrieta.  Loud mouthed parent was all over the ref(he was doing the game alone).  Ref finally blows his whistle and warns the guy.  The class act responds with 'why don't you go blow something else!'  The 'gentleman' was shown a red card.  Great stuff you can't wait for your 10 year old daughter to hear.


----------



## SoccerLife12 (Oct 1, 2016)

Today at my nephew's game (2001 age) a boy on the other team was being overly aggressive.  He kept tackling hard and late and fouling whenever possible. When my nephew's coach said, "Hey ref, this is the 4th or 5th time this player has done this", the kid turned to the coach and said, "nope its the 6th."  Then he took out the best player on my nephew's team and the boy flew through the air and then rolled a bunch of times due to a late tackle. He received a yellow card which was definitely deserved as it was a dangerous play.  A little later,  my nephew went in for a tackle and fouled that same boy and tripped him (not intentional just part of the play and ref called a foul). But same boy then elbowed my nephew in the head (completely intentional, that foul not called).  At the end of the game after the teams line up to say good game then walk to the opposing side and clap to the parents,  this boy flipped us all off. Wow!  I hope the parents of this fine specimen are so proud!


----------



## genesis (Oct 1, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> Disappointed doesn't even begin to adequately express what I am thinking right now. Before I get the 'you must be new to this' or 'this is just the way club soccer is' I will say, yes I'm relatively new to this world. We've only been involved in this crazy world for 3 years but I am so put off by the poor sportsmanship I see at all age levels. Having a younger and slightly older kid I'm really disheartened by 8 yr olds trash talking their own goalies (just saw this at a tournament Labor day weekend), coaches screaming like luantics at the kids along with the parents and wondering why the 8 year old is confused? Then fast fwd to u13s, a players mom telling the rest of the parents, 'that she's done, could care less about the rest of the season, her daughters already moved on' to girls on the field snickering when someone falls down, to a coach yelling at a player to 'take that #blank down'. Wth is going on seriously? This is crazy. Everytime my kiddos play I say go out there and play hard and have fun. They can win a game and if they play like little sh*ts I will call them on it. I can't condone this crap behavior. I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me today, then I realized it's just a cumulation of little hostile things from parents, coaches, kids etc and we are what in the 2nd week of fall league? Sigh.


Welcome to Trump Land.


----------



## smellycleats (Oct 1, 2016)

genesis said:


> Welcome to Trump Land.


Hang on now...we all "pay to play".   I say, welcome to Hillary Land!


----------



## genesis (Oct 1, 2016)

smellycleats said:


> Hang on now...we all "pay to play". I say, welcome to Hillary Land!


Uhhhh, if you examine the dark lord's taxes apparently he does not pay to play. On a happier note Charles Manson has volunteered to coach my kids plus he will do it for free.


----------



## coachrefparent (Oct 2, 2016)

SoccerLife12 said:


> Today at my nephew's game (2001 age) a boy on the other team was being overly aggressive.  He kept tackling hard and late and fouling whenever possible. When my nephew's coach said, "Hey ref, this is the 4th or 5th time this player has done this", the kid turned to the coach and said, "nope its the 6th."  Then he took out the best player on my nephew's team and the boy flew through the air and then rolled a bunch of times due to a late tackle. He received a yellow card which was definitely deserved as it was a dangerous play.  A little later,  my nephew went in for a tackle and fouled that same boy and tripped him (not intentional just part of the play and ref called a foul). But same boy then elbowed my nephew in the head (completely intentional, that foul not called).  At the end of the game after the teams line up to say good game then walk to the opposing side and clap to the parents,  this boy flipped us all off. Wow! * I hope the parents of this fine specimen are so proud!*


I guarantee they are very proud. Where do you think the kid learned to be trash?


----------

