# Club newbie Questions



## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 5, 2018)

We are still fairly new to the “Club world” and just looking for some advice from others that may have been in our position in the past.

I have 2 DDs whose team has been together for just under a year. Most of the players were recruited by the coach during last year’s AYSO All Star season. They’ve played in a couple tournaments during Summer, took championship in 1 tourney and did just ‘ok’ in the others. We lost a couple players right before fall and picked up a few more just weeks before the season started.

For my kids, Fall season was a great learning experience, but the team didn’t fare so well only winning a couple games.

Towards the end of Fall season, the coach had a Team meeting and informed us he had recruited a few players for another team and that he was looking in to creating 2 teams, so he would be looking for an additional 6-8 players.

At this meeting, and on several occasions since then, he has preached on and on about “this is club soccer.. not everyone will get minutes” and doing what is best for the team. This was something we knew coming in to this.

The main problem has been that most of the his new recruits are not necessarily at the “club” level. And some feel he is just adding players for the money.

The team has participated in 4 or so scrimmages and 2 tournaments since he declared we’d have 2 teams and that some kids would get little to possibly no play time. During 1 tournament, our team beat a very good team that had only lost 2 games during Fall. During that specific game, 5 or so players got less than 10 mins play time. Needless to say, a couple parents were NOT happy about their kids’ low playing time and called the coach on it almost immediately. He had another meeting to re-iterate his intentions for 2 teams and players needing to work for their play time. 1 girl quit the team right after that.

Both of my daughters have been fortunate to either start in all of the matches or get very decent play time, so we aren’t upset about the 2 teams or the girls having to work hard and earning their positions.

My question is this:

On a team that is consistently losing, when do we look out for our own DDs development and move on/look for other teams?

If the coach is still giving certain players minutes, in order to keep their parents happy ($$$), do we stick around for yet another losing season?


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## TangoCity (Feb 5, 2018)

1. Are your kids happy?
2. Is the coach good and do you know what a good coach looks like?
3. Does the coach NOT have a kid on the team?

Did you answer "yes" to all three questions?


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 5, 2018)

1. They get along well with almost all the girls on the team and ate happy to go to practice/games. On few occasions, they say they arent too happy with the coach.
2. We heard good an bad things about tje coach before starting. In our own experience, he has great training drills and ideas... communication (with both parents and players) needs alot of work!
We come from the AYSO world, so we may not know all the criteria of what exactly a good coach should look like...
3. He does have a daughter on the team.


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## MWN (Feb 5, 2018)

Without knowing the age its hard to give advice.  Generally:

Youngers (12 and under) - We are establishing a love for the game.  Playing time and less pressure is important.  Its about having fun and developing skills.

Yougers 12-14 - At the higher levels Flight 1-2 and Silver - Premier, winning is an important function.  At Bronze and Flight 3, playing time and winning should have better equality.

Olders 15+ - Its all about winning and developing and being seen by college coaches.


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## RedHawk (Feb 5, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> 1. They get along well with almost all the girls on the team and ate happy to go to practice/games. On few occasions, they say they arent too happy with the coach.
> 2. We heard good an bad things about tje coach before starting. In our own experience, he has great training drills and ideas... communication (with both parents and players) needs alot of work!
> We come from the AYSO world, so we may not know all the criteria of what exactly a good coach should look like...
> 3. He does have a daughter on the team.


Time to find a New Team!!


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 5, 2018)

I think you should look at wins/losses differently and not let that be the primary reason (or a reason at all) for deciding on the choice of coach.  Is your team not competitive at all?  If so, that means your club/coach put your team in the wrong flight (to appease the parents is a likely reason).  I personally feel any team needs to play in a flight that gives them a realistic chance to win 30% of the league games (i.e. you're competitive).

Now, put aside the W-L consideration, as TangoCity posted above in #2, do you know what a good coach looks like or the type of coach you're looking for?  This is not meant to be an offensive question to you, as it's something I also had to learn myself over the years.  You need to know what you're shopping for before you can decide what to buy, right?

Regarding your question on playing time, let's do the math.  On a team playing 9v9 with 11 players with 1 full time goalie, each field player gets an average of 48 minutes in a 60 minute game.  Same scenario but with 14 players, each field player gets only 37 minutes or 23% less compared to a team with 11 players.  Go to SCDSL's website and look at the size of the roster in the game logs.  My DD's club's U-little teams typically field no more than 2 players over the minimum.  Other club fields 4 or even 5 players over the minimum.  I'm ok with letting my DD compete for playing time, but let's start out with a bigger piece of the pie .

On your last point about leaving a team with below average players, perhaps you can look at this differently.  Ask yourself honestly if your DD is "easily" the best or 2nd best player on the team.  If so, it might be good for her to move to a more challenging environment.  I personally want my DD to be the 6th or 7th best players on a team that plays 9v9 at the "beginning" of the year, so she has more room to improve.

Finally, I personally know of one team that was in a similar situation last year.  They recruited for two teams but didn't get enough players, and ended up with just one team with 15 players playing 9v9.  Make sure your coach is really going to have two teams.

Best of luck.


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## Multi Sport (Feb 5, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> My question is this:
> 
> On a team that is consistently losing, when do we look out for our own DDs development and move on/look for other teams?


You always are looking out for your kids development.  It should always be a priority if you are paying for Club Soccer.


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## 46n2 (Feb 5, 2018)

If you want your kids to advance in soccer or any sport , playing time is what they need!  Why anyone would pay for a sport and have their kids get less than 10% playing time is mind boggling, BUT it happens alot !
Personally get you DD's on a team were they can play full games , if their youngers , they dont care about flight 1 or 2 status, that happens around age 10-11 IMO, parent seem to care more , like a status thing.


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## MWN (Feb 5, 2018)

46n2 said:


> If you want your kids to advance in soccer or any sport , playing time is what they need!  Why anyone would pay for a sport and have their kids get less than 10% playing time is mind boggling, BUT it happens alot !
> Personally get you DD's on a team were they can play full games , if their youngers , they dont care about flight 1 or 2 status, that happens around age 10-11 IMO, parent seem to care more , like a status thing.


Sorry, but I completely disagree.  The game is 1.5 hours.  Practice is 6-8 hours per week.  The game is simply a demonstration of the culmination of hours of practice.  True development occurs during practice and training.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 5, 2018)

They are a 2006 team. Played bronze level in CSL during fall. 
We never had any plans for them to play club soccer, they had always just played AYSO and all stars.. so we are learning.. 
My 2 have had a good share of the minutes, 1 has played a hand full of full games.. 
But i do see there's a probelm when we started Fall season with 14 players. 
I can certainly say my 2 are not on the top 3 of their team, but i have noticed an improvement from when they first started...
We have about 20 girls right now showing up to practices.. with them moving to 11v11 next fall, im concerned the coach will not get enough players to field 2 teams..


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## 46n2 (Feb 5, 2018)

I believe the parent is talking about youngers.  You are partially right , practice is keen, but with* youngers* they practice at max 2.5-3 hrs a week with their coach during the week, and games are less than a hour.........


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 5, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> They are a 2006 team. Played bronze level in CSL during fall.
> We never had any plans for them to play club soccer, they had always just played AYSO and all stars.. so we are learning..
> My 2 have had a good share of the minutes, 1 has played a hand full of full games..
> But i do see there's a probelm when we started Fall season with 14 players.
> ...


Is that the norm for your club?  Personally 14 players for 9v9 is a deal breaker for me.  That tells me club/coach is more interesting in meeting a quota.  We always want a low faculty-to-student ratio in school.  Shouldn't be any different in soccer.

Take Slammers as an example.  My DD doesn't play for them and I'm not recommending for or against them.  But I do know they purposely keep the U-little roster small so kids get more playing time for in-game development.  I see quite a few 2006/2007 teams with only 10 or 11 players playing 9v9 on SCDSL's website.  To me that's doing it the right way.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 5, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> Now, put aside the W-L consideration, as TangoCity posted above in #2, do you know what a good coach looks like or the type of coach you're looking for?  This is not meant to be an offensive question to you, as it's something I also had to learn myself over the years.


I dont take offense one bit.. i am open to learning anything that i can!
My girls truly love and enjoy this sport and it has become a family thing for us.

What are certain qualities to look for? It cant be all about which license the coach holds, can it?


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## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2018)

The license doesn't have great correlation with how good a coach is.  There are plenty of bad A&Bs running around there, and some really great Es.  An A is more likely to be experienced and have years in than the E, though, but you have to look as well at what their experience is (have they played college, have they only coached AYSO, how long have they been doing it).  No coach is going to have all the skills: be a great manager, be a great communicator, inspire the kids without yelling, be a great tactician on the field, focus on individual development, focus on small group development, know how to recruit and put together a team, know how to sell players to colleges.  Question is what do you want and at what age.

I'll share again the story of my niece.   Her team lost pretty much every single game last fall.  The coach was teaching them the passing game....to play possession instead of pass it to the fastest, strongest member of the team who'd run it down the field and score.  Meant passing it back to the goalkeepers a lot who under pressure lost it near their goal.  Also let the goalkeepers kick their own goalkicks when there were stronger legs on the team that could get it farther.  By the end of the season the team was really clicking.  You could tell they were learning something.  They all stayed, despite the losses, except their lead striker, whose family felt they should have racked up more wins, and the lead goalkeeper, who felt blamed for the losses.  Granted, they are a ulittles team and so they have the luxury of time.  But even if the team falls apart, they came away knowing the possession and triangle system very well and could plug into any possession based team.


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## Josep (Feb 5, 2018)

Starting bottom to top.  I don’t like parent coaches.  I never have.  They don’t belong in club soccer. 

Also, if you feel like he’s diluting to fill his wallet, bail.  

Attend a practice and see what else is out there.  

I would say, if you want to play at a higher level, and continue to progress, both of your kids better be standouts, or prepare for them to be split at some point.  

Harsh reality. Prepare for it now.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 5, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> I dont take offense one bit.. i am open to learning anything that i can!
> My girls truly love and enjoy this sport and it has become a family thing for us.
> 
> What are certain qualities to look for? It cant be all about which license the coach holds, can it?


What Grace T. said is pretty spot on.  I think this is where you need to invest some time yourself and watch some soccer  and decide what type of soccer you want to see your DD play.  If your DD is 2006, she probably has some good ideas already.

My DD is a little younger than yours.  Here are a few things I personally like from my DD's coaches during games and practices:
-Coach's demeanor during games.  Go watch a few of the perspective games before tryout, and see how the coach acts in person.
-Do kids have the freedom to make in-game decisions?  As Grace T mentioned, possession game for U-little is difficult at times.  Take centerback position as an example.  Does your centerback have the discretion to decide when to boot it and when to connect to teammates, or is she being instructed to simply clear it every time?
-Work a lot on passing, moving without the ball, making thru balls, switch sides, etc.
-Work on their weak foot
-In scrimmages, they need to do a skill or two before they are allowed to shoot.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 5, 2018)

Josep said:


> Starting bottom to top.  I don’t like parent coaches.  I never have.  They don’t belong in club soccer.
> 
> Also, if you feel like he’s diluting to fill his wallet, bail.
> 
> ...


I think that is one thing that has kept us around. Having them on the same team has been a relief! 
But we do feel like the coach is just taking on new players for his wallet...

We are a little torn on the convenience of having them on the same team.


Anyone with experience with having multiple children with different teams/clubs?


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## TangoCity (Feb 5, 2018)

I think it is HUGE generalization to say that "true development" occurs at practice (as opposed to games).  This is really based on the individual.  For some it is practice, for some it is training outside of practice and for some it is playing in games -- and for most it is some combination of the three.  For my DD the biggest improvement she ever had was the year she played on likely her worst team with the coach that had the worst practices.  She got better because she played pretty much every minute of every game and the coach had confidence in her and played her at one of the most important positions (center fullback) where she had to concentrate, learn to read the game in often a stressful situation (make a mistake and other team scores) and learn to not rely on other players to do the dirty work.  It was the best thing that ever happened to her soccer career.  She got ceremoniously cut the season before from a 'B' team at a high level club (DA) the year before where they had all their fancy practice plans and high paid coaches.  Now she is as good or better than any of those players from the team she got cut from.  I attribute a large chunk of that to the bad team/not so good coach she went to the next season where she played full time.  And most of her skills at the younger age came from training with me ... not with any coach.  Now she is with a really good team with a really good coach and still playing full time.  Still plenty of room for improvement of course.  I guess my point is ... don't underestimate the importance of playing time in soccer development.  It is not just about showcasing what you learned in practice.


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## El Macho (Feb 5, 2018)

This is not a complex question. A Good Coach will communicate and follow through. His practices will be organized and constantly have them moving. Most importantly they will be there.

If a player does not see playing time at a young age its a waste of time. sixty percent is the minnimum. 

Development is such a complex word as all players can go to same practice and do the same drills but why do some play better than others? 

Players and parent will only be happy if they find a team that has a coach that is dedicated with a team that plays at the level of the player's potential. This will ensure playing time. Positioning is can also be a factor but it should not be at a young age.

Soccer in So Cal is a big mess with Club politics and the race to get on the latest Academy. Just go with your gut, there are great coaches everywhere. I have seen A license that are horrible and E that really know how to teach the game. That parent coach thing is also bologna. There are many professional players that have been coached by their fathers.In the end your player has to enjoy it. A good gauge is if they practice on their own.

Good luck and dont believe any hype. If it feels right it will be.


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## MWN (Feb 5, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> I think it is HUGE generalization to say that "true development" occurs at practice (as opposed to games).  This is really based on the individual.  For some it is practice, for some it is training outside of practice and for some it is playing in games -- and for most it is some combination of the three.  For my DD the biggest improvement she ever had was the year she played on likely her worst team with the coach that had the worst practices.  She got better because she played pretty much every minute of every game and the coach had confidence in her and played her at one of the most important positions (center fullback) where she had to concentrate, learn to read the game in often a stressful situation (make a mistake and other team scores) and learn to not rely on other players to do the dirty work.  It was the best thing that ever happened to her soccer career.  She got ceremoniously cut the season before from a 'B' team at a high level club (DA) the year before where they had all their fancy practice plans and high paid coaches.  Now she is as good or better than any of those players from the team she got cut from.  I attribute a large chunk of that to the bad team/not so good coach she went to the next season where she played full time.  And most of her skills at the younger age came from training with me ... not with any coach.  Now she is with a really good team with a really good coach and still playing full time.  Still plenty of room for improvement of course.  I guess my point is ... don't underestimate the importance of playing time in soccer development.  It is not just about showcasing what you learned in practice.


@TangoCity,
You are basically making the point that your kid has a really unique experience and wouldn't be where she was today because she worked on her skills with you outside of formal practice (also called training), but the games were especially impactful.  Ok.  Your kid is the exception.

If, practice wasn't that important the USSDA teams would play 3 games and practice twice a week.  They don't.  They practice and train 4 days a week for hours each day and play a game or two on the weekend.  Clubs in Europe, Latin America and the America's train, train, train all week long for the 1.5 hour game.  I'm sorry, but for 95% of the kids training/practice makes them better ... not 30 minutes or 50 minutes in a game.  Coaching is thrown out the window in a game.  During a game kids are forced to employ what they learned and while games are important, practice and training is much more important.

Take a goalkeeper, these kids run through hundreds of shots during training/practice ... games?  10 to 12 shots. 

My experience is the opposite.  The ball skills, passing, first touch, set plays, crosses, wall passes, etc., are all learned and honed during practice/training.  The boys learn to trust each other and try new things during the small sided training games.  The goalkeepers hone their dives, ground level scoops, hand positions, defense of crosses, etc., during practice.


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## Chalklines (Feb 6, 2018)

I agree on that the focus should be primarily on training. If the coach has quality training sessions and your kids not getting pt talk to the coach and find out what area your players lacking in. 

This is club soccer. Not everyone gets equal playing time. Ayso is a perfect place if your looking for fair game time minutes but the coaching will be sub par at best.


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## espola (Feb 6, 2018)

Josep said:


> Starting bottom to top.  I don’t like parent coaches.  I never have.  They don’t belong in club soccer.
> 
> Also, if you feel like he’s diluting to fill his wallet, bail.
> 
> ...


If the only reason he is coaching is because he is a parent of a kid on the team, I agree.  However, if he is a good coach anyway, what's the problem?


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## watfly (Feb 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> I think it is HUGE generalization to say that "true development" occurs at practice (as opposed to games).  This is really based on the individual.  For some it is practice, for some it is training outside of practice and for some it is playing in games -- and for most it is some combination of the three.  For my DD the biggest improvement she ever had was the year she played on likely her worst team with the coach that had the worst practices.  She got better because she played pretty much every minute of every game and the coach had confidence in her and played her at one of the most important positions (center fullback) where she had to concentrate, learn to read the game in often a stressful situation (make a mistake and other team scores) and learn to not rely on other players to do the dirty work.  It was the best thing that ever happened to her soccer career.  She got ceremoniously cut the season before from a 'B' team at a high level club (DA) the year before where they had all their fancy practice plans and high paid coaches.  Now she is as good or better than any of those players from the team she got cut from.  I attribute a large chunk of that to the bad team/not so good coach she went to the next season where she played full time.  And most of her skills at the younger age came from training with me ... not with any coach.  Now she is with a really good team with a really good coach and still playing full time.  Still plenty of room for improvement of course.  I guess my point is ... don't underestimate the importance of playing time in soccer development.  It is not just about showcasing what you learned in practice.


Playing time is huge for the confidence of a kid, and confidence is key to being a great player.  You can have all the skill, athleticism and speed in the world but if you don't have the confidence to use it those skills are worthless.  A coach can destroy a kids confidence with lack of playing time or derogatory treatment of a kid.  Unfortunately many coaches and parents don't understand that aspect of sports.  Practice, outside training, free play and formal games are all critical to development.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 6, 2018)

espola said:


> If the only reason he is coaching is because he is a parent of a kid on the team, I agree.  However, if he is a good coach anyway, what's the problem?


Coach states he was the creator of one of the bigger clubs in our area, but for one reason or another left that club (we've never found out why).. 
I think he is trying to do the same thing with this club, but one of the main reasons he started was for his kid.
Does it make a difference if the coach's kid is the star player? or if she really should still be playing rec?

For anyone that has had a child on a losing team, did the players confidence go down? As much as my DDs understand that it is not all about winning, I have noticed a lack of trust and confidence the last few weeks.


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## socalkdg (Feb 6, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> They are a 2006 team. Played bronze level in CSL during fall.
> We never had any plans for them to play club soccer, they had always just played AYSO and all stars.. so we are learning..
> My 2 have had a good share of the minutes, 1 has played a hand full of full games..
> But i do see there's a probelm when we started Fall season with 14 players.
> ...


Key things you say are that you have noticed improvement.   They are having fun.   If you are able to say that after every year, then you are going in the right direction.    Our coach had a kid on the team, but she didn't get much playing time.  If all the girls are improving and the team stays bronze another year, then I'd expect winning to happen next year.  The grass is not always greener on the other side.


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## watfly (Feb 6, 2018)

MWN said:


> Sorry, but I completely disagree.  The game is 1.5 hours.  Practice is 6-8 hours per week.  The game is simply a demonstration of the culmination of hours of practice.  True development occurs during practice and training.


That's the same line of BS that coaches, who are more concerned about winning than development, use on parents to justify the lack of playing time for their kid.  Why did the coach even choose a kid if they weren't going to play?  If that's the case than the coach should be upfront at selection time with the parents (I know wishful thinking).  Now I appreciate that things change during the season, but still...  Maybe at flight 1, but anything below that for the youngers, playing time should never be an issue.

Beside confidence, the other problem with limited playing time is that while some kids will rise to the occasion, most young kids are going to go into the game and be more focused on not making a mistake for fear they will be pulled.  That's no way to play or develop in soccer.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 6, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> Coach states he was the creator of one of the bigger clubs in our area, but for one reason or another left that club (we've never found out why)..
> I think he is trying to do the same thing with this club, but one of the main reasons he started was for his kid.
> Does it make a difference if the coach's kid is the star player? or if she really should still be playing rec?
> 
> For anyone that has had a child on a losing team, did the players confidence go down? As much as my DDs understand that it is not all about winning, I have noticed a lack of trust and confidence the last few weeks.


That depends on what you meant by losing.  If your team is 3-9 or 4-8, but competitive in 8 or 9 out of the 12 games, then there is nothing wrong with that if you see improvement in your DD.  Playing against better teams is how you improve.  My DD usually had more fun in a 1-2 loss than a 7-0 win.

If your team is 1-11 or 0-12 with no realistic chance to win any of the games, it gets old and demoralizing very quick for kids and parents.  Not much learning is happening when you're getting killed 7-0.

Does your parent coach get paid?  My take on the parent (AYSO or unpaid club) coach is that my DD needs to be "clearly" better than coach's DD if my DD wants more playing time than coach's daughter.  Since the coach volunteers his valuable time, I have no problem (but my wife does  ) if coach's daughter gets more playing time compared to players with similar skills.


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## futboldad1 (Feb 6, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> They are a 2006 team. Played bronze level in CSL during fall.
> We never had any plans for them to play club soccer, they had always just played AYSO and all stars.. so we are learning..
> My 2 have had a good share of the minutes, 1 has played a hand full of full games..
> But i do see there's a probelm when we started Fall season with 14 players.
> ...


Some thoughts from this thread...

- on top 9v9 teams 14 players is an acceptable maximum number due to all the travel and games 
- but 50%+ should still be the minimum playing time per game
- "doing a skill" before you can shoot is the creation of a terrible habit unless the game is already 10-0
- licenses, as others have said, mean diddly squat 
- can the coach communicate, are they dependable, do they develop?


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## TangoCity (Feb 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> Playing time is huge for the confidence of a kid, and confidence is key to being a great player.  You can have all the skill, athleticism and speed in the world but if you don't have the confidence to use it those skills are worthless.  A coach can destroy a kids confidence with lack of playing time or derogatory treatment of a kid.  Unfortunately many coaches and parents don't understand that aspect of sports.  Practice, outside training, free play and formal games are all critical to development.


This x 100.  The game (not any coach) is the best teacher.  You "have" to play to get better.  Practice, training etc... is obviously important (like I said) but playing the game not sitting on the bench is the 'best' teacher of the game.


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## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> This x 100.  The game (not any coach) is the best teacher.  You "have" to play to get better.  Practice, training etc... is obviously important (like I said) but playing the game not sitting on the bench is the 'best' teacher of the game.



Just a note to the OP by way of background, and not taking an position here.   The division you are witnessing here on this point mirrors one of the debates going on in U.S. Soccer.  Oversimplifying but there is a group that believes that the game is the best teacher and the best way to develop.  They've had the upper hand in the club soccer world the last several years.  As a result, the coach licensing training focuses on teaching coaches to use "guided self-learning" for players...to have the players play one v one, small group, full scrimmage and games so the players can learn by playing, under the guided direction of the coach.  They've developed a philosophy that lines are bad and practice should always emphasize the team and build up to a scrimmage.  The criticism of this school of thought is if the coach does only this, where will players learn their individual skills (the answer usually given is a private trainer, parent, or skills academy).  AYSO's curriculum by contrast has focused on developing individual skills to build self-confidence (lines, for example, give the coach the opportunity to observe the technique of each individual player, but the criticism is they are boring for the kids who have to sit and wait instead of do) though with the rise of United, we'll see if that continues.


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## Mystery Train (Feb 6, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> For anyone that has had a child on a losing team, did the players confidence go down? As much as my DDs understand that it is not all about winning, I have noticed a lack of trust and confidence the last few weeks.


Most of our kids were on a losing team at some point or another.  At your daughter's age, the only reason to be concerned about losing or winning is in the "how" of the losing or winning.  If the team is competitive but coming up short frequently, or if the coach is developing the girls' style and they are making mistakes (you said most of them are new to club, so this is to be expected) then the losing season(s) will just make the payoff that much sweeter as they get better.  If they work through the trust issues and develop, the losses are actually quite valuable.  On the other hand, if they are getting blown out in Bronze level games and the coach is yelling at players and the families are backstabbing over playing time and the girls are blaming each other, well then that's a whole different story.  A couple of seasons of that will kill off a kid's desire to continue forever.  

The big questions you need to ask yourself as a parent to figure out how to manage your kids playing club soccer are:  Why are we doing this?  What are the short term and long term goals for the kids?  You and the kids need to have a very solid agreement on this.  Those answers will dictate the rest.  If they're doing it for fun, to learn the lessons that come from physical competition and team sports, to give them a foundation for a life-long love of sports, then your choice of coach/team/club will always be answered by them with this: *Are you having fun?*  Some kids aren't having fun unless they are winning and improving, so winning may be a factor in the decision, but it isn't the big one.  

If you are doing this because you think your kid is good and could get a college scholarship or could be a "star" with the right coach, with the right club, and in the right league, then your choices will not matter because all of that is out of your hands anyway:  If your kid is destined to be that good, they'll end up making it no matter what obstacles are there.  (And God help you if that is how it goes because that's no easy road despite being what every parent dreams of...such a life is filled with pressure, stress, and much anguish.)  They will literally drive the whole process of their growth, and leave you (and the coaches) helpless to keep them from it.  If they're not that kid, they're going to end up miserable no matter what choices you make because these are the wrong goals to begin with.  

It is common to get caught in the middle of those two goals.  A kid who is better than 75% of everyone else but not in the top 10% and who has big ambitions may end up very frustrated in the club soccer world, because lower level "fun" soccer isn't competitive enough, and they continually get overlooked by the high level teams where they might have the opportunity to work their way into their highest potential.  This is kind of the worst case scenario, because as a parent you just don't know how far to go down the rabbit hole before you say, "this is insane."   

So, in the end, it must always come back to "Are you having fun?"  Because it's sports, right?


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## Chalklines (Feb 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> Playing time is huge for the confidence of a kid, and confidence is key to being a great player.  You can have all the skill, athleticism and speed in the world but if you don't have the confidence to use it those skills are worthless.  A coach can destroy a kids confidence with lack of playing time or derogatory treatment of a kid.  Unfortunately many coaches and parents don't understand that aspect of sports.  Practice, outside training, free play and formal games are all critical to development.


Totally agree with this but if your kids part of the bench mob and they cant be trusted on the field its time for a new club.

Playing time needs to be earned.


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## MakeAPlay (Feb 6, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Most of our kids were on a losing team at some point or another.  At your daughter's age, the only reason to be concerned about losing or winning is in the "how" of the losing or winning.  If the team is competitive but coming up short frequently, or if the coach is developing the girls' style and they are making mistakes (you said most of them are new to club, so this is to be expected) then the losing season(s) will just make the payoff that much sweeter as they get better.  If they work through the trust issues and develop, the losses are actually quite valuable.  On the other hand, if they are getting blown out in Bronze level games and the coach is yelling at players and the families are backstabbing over playing time and the girls are blaming each other, well then that's a whole different story.  A couple of seasons of that will kill off a kid's desire to continue forever.
> 
> The big questions you need to ask yourself as a parent to figure out how to manage your kids playing club soccer are:  Why are we doing this?  What are the short term and long term goals for the kids?  You and the kids need to have a very solid agreement on this.  Those answers will dictate the rest.  If they're doing it for fun, to learn the lessons that come from physical competition and team sports, to give them a foundation for a life-long love of sports, then your choice of coach/team/club will always be answered by them with this: *Are you having fun?*  Some kids aren't having fun unless they are winning and improving, so winning may be a factor in the decision, but it isn't the big one.
> 
> ...



Great post MT!!


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## socalkdg (Feb 6, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Just a note to the OP by way of background, and not taking an position here.   The division you are witnessing here on this point mirrors one of the debates going on in U.S. Soccer.  Oversimplifying but there is a group that believes that the game is the best teacher and the best way to develop.  They've had the upper hand in the club soccer world the last several years.  As a result, the coach licensing training focuses on teaching coaches to use "guided self-learning" for players...to have the players play one v one, small group, full scrimmage and games so the players can learn by playing, under the guided direction of the coach.  They've developed a philosophy that lines are bad and practice should always emphasize the team and build up to a scrimmage.  The criticism of this school of thought is if the coach does only this, where will players learn their individual skills (the answer usually given is a private trainer, parent, or skills academy).  AYSO's curriculum by contrast has focused on developing individual skills to build self-confidence (lines, for example, give the coach the opportunity to observe the technique of each individual player, but the criticism is they are boring for the kids who have to sit and wait instead of do) though with the rise of United, we'll see if that continues.


Lines aren't required to observe individual technique.   Having 14 kids in their individual square all doing the same type of footwork makes it pretty easy to see which kids need adjustments to the technique that they are using.  Multiple stations with everyone working once again allows you to see how players are doing without lines.    How about a mix of both playing the game and working on technique.   Plus who actually thinks two practices a week of 90 minutes and one game of 60 minutes is actually going to improve our soccer.   My oldest dances 15 hours a week, my soccer kid plays basketball on her own every day, plus soccer 3 times per week.   Lets get kids up to 8 hours per week and we will see a great improvement to our soccer programs.   If your kid loves soccer, 8 hours is nothing.  1 hour individual skills, 1 hour short sided scrimmages.  4 times per week.


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## jrcaesar (Feb 6, 2018)

_Players learn/develop in practice_ is half the equation. _Players "perform" in games_ is the other half. There are too many clubs/teams out there where if your child isn't playing 50% of the team, you need to find a team and coach where the child can play. When they are 36 and telling tales of their youth, they won't be saying how grateful they were the year they were 11 and sat on the bench _"because, man, did I learn by practicing that year."_


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## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Lines aren't required to observe individual technique.   Having 14 kids in their individual square all doing the same type of footwork makes it pretty easy to see which kids need adjustments to the technique that they are using.  Multiple stations with everyone working once again allows you to see how players are doing without lines.    How about a mix of both playing the game and working on technique.   Plus who actually thinks two practices a week of 90 minutes and one game of 60 minutes is actually going to improve our soccer.   My oldest dances 15 hours a week, my soccer kid plays basketball on her own every day, plus soccer 3 times per week.   Lets get kids up to 8 hours per week and we will see a great improvement to our soccer programs.   If your kid loves soccer, 8 hours is nothing.  1 hour individual skills, 1 hour short sided scrimmages.  4 times per week.



I've actually found the lines to be useful, particularly with the youngers, when they are just learning how to pass, shoot or cross to get down individual technique, but are past the entire "let's just explore the ball" phase.  Like anything, it's a tool, and one that you probably don't need for the olders.  Stations are great too, but require a good assistant coach that can keep an eye on things since coach's eye can't be on every station and on every kid.  Not every team has the luxury of having an assistant coach present for every practice (if they get paid it costs more), and indeed some have complained on this forum that they sometimes only get the assistant coach (and not the head coach who is off handling multiple teams).  Individual squares are another great tool but again requires multiple eyes, and work especially well for things like teaching a skill move.  US Soccer doesn't seem to want us to use any of these techniques though beyond the initial "warm up" phase.

The problem with 8 hours of soccer, of course, is that it forces you to make a choice with school, particularly if you have an academically motivated kid in an advanced program once you get out of ULittles.  Then the question for the athlete becomes is it worth it to spend all that time on an activity for which I can't get scholarship, isn't going to get me recruited, and is only going to check a box in the well rounded assessment.  My kid does about 7 during the season, is a GK with specialized training, and that's kind of pushing it with his elementary school (and I sometimes feel he doesn't get enough by way of either field or GK training as a result since both get shortchanged).  But it's all about what kind of soccer do we want...do we want a world of 8-10 hours of soccer that scares off kids who aren't in the 10% or who are on the academic track, do we want a system that encourages broad participation....I personally hope the coming elections bring us choices and recognize that one size doesn't fit all.


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## John Akii-Bua (Feb 6, 2018)

This sounds like a combustible team situation. Please, whatever you do, don't give this guy a big check for next year. Pay him month to month. six, eight months from now this group of kids could look very very different, and you don't want to be the one locked into a bad situation.

Although it's possible this is a good coach going through a sticky growth moment, your post raises a couple of red flags, so I'd proceed with caution. Inform yourself as to what you want out of club soccer and a club soccer coach. It's a hard slog to get good information here, but if you read enough threads you'll start to understand the club soccer environment. There are plenty of threads from newbies looking for advice, so that'd be a place to start. 

This club seems like a shoestring operation. I'd find out right away if the guy is actually pulling permits on fields. If not, he's ripping you off and putting himself and your kids at risk. His Cal South insurance isn't valid. Next, is there a director of coaches or technical director at the club? I'd ask them what the club philosophy is about playing time. In general, get to know the DOC. On the other hand, those guys are usually smooth at placating parents, so be skeptical and firm.

remember, club soccer is run by people who love soccer, but don't necessarily know the first thing about running an organization or how to treat people. The more you engage, the better your kids' experience will be.



> If the coach is still giving certain players minutes, in order to keep their parents happy ($$$), do we stick around for yet another losing season?


I'd say no. not because you're losing, but because he's ripping the families off and it won't be much fun. Anyway, the team will blow up in a year or two. In general, you want to look for a team where the gap between the best and the worst player is smallest. That way the coach can teach to the same level, everyone will have shared interests, and playing time can be fair.

If I were you, I'd be quietly checking out other clubs nearby, or at the very least talking to families about their experience. At this stage in their development, I'd be looking for a coach that emphasizes technical skills, but MT's advice is more important.

Finally, if the CC in your name refers to Culver City, I'd read the current thread on the westside merger.


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## seesnake (Feb 6, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> I've actually found the lines to be useful, particularly with the youngers, when they are just learning how to pass, shoot or cross to get down individual technique, but are past the entire "let's just explore the ball" phase.  Like anything, it's a tool, and one that you probably don't need for the olders.  Stations are great too, but require a good assistant coach that can keep an eye on things since coach's eye can't be on every station and on every kid.  Not every team has the luxury of having an assistant coach present for every practice (if they get paid it costs more), and indeed some have complained on this forum that they sometimes only get the assistant coach (and not the head coach who is off handling multiple teams).  Individual squares are another great tool but again requires multiple eyes, and work especially well for things like teaching a skill move.  US Soccer doesn't seem to want us to use any of these techniques though beyond the initial "warm up" phase.


I've seen several skilled coaches have technical work done with everyone or nearly everyone on the ball and then they just shift their attention from player to player so instead of having lines to isolate attention while others are static, they have their own observation isolated on a player while others get purposeful touches (not always perfect touches). The kids also avoid boredom and the feeling of everyone watching one/two players while getting a bit of a sweat going. Some of the best build technical work in progressions that require decision making and are more game-like while requiring technical skill.

Lines are tools that are comfortable and easily managed by a coach, which make them popular and ubiquitous (also anachronistic imho), but in many cases can be eliminated to multiply the actual learning time of the players. I think at the very introduction of new technical work or in high-load physical work, to build in rest periods, lines are a good choice.


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## watfly (Feb 6, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with 8 hours of soccer, of course, is that it forces you to make a choice with school, particularly if you have an academically motivated kid in an advanced program once you get out of ULittles.


8 hours is nothing for a kid that is passionate and committed to their sport.  I can show you a whole room of dance girls that train 20 hours per week and are academic high achievers.  None of which will likely see a dime of scholarship money for dance.


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## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> 8 hours is nothing for a kid that is passionate and committed to their sport.  I can show you a whole room of dance girls that train 20 hours per week and are academic high achievers.  None of which will likely see a dime of scholarship money for dance.


I can totally believe that.  In fact, I've interviewed kids who've done that for college.  But the reality is that in high school your time goes 4 places: academics, extracurriculars/sports, socializing/family and sleep (5 if you count service/church as separate from extracurriculars).  We all make choices.  I see a lot of kids, for example, that neglect the sleep or social aspects, and sometimes that can not only hurt their happiness, it surprisingly can even affect their application.  If the kid is passionate and wants to spend 20 hours dancing or playing soccer, more power to them.  But at least when it comes to college applications, the question needs to be asked if that's the best use of their time.  Scholarship or no, if they plan on playing soccer or dancing in college (I wasn't a dance major, for instance, but did my college's competitive ballroom team), then sure it's a great fit.  But if the kid applies saying they are obsessed with particle physics and science, and are spending all their time on dance and not particle physics, the admissions board is going to ask what are they doing with their time and time management.  Matters less for schools that just take GPA+ test scores like many state schools.  Matters less if you aren't going to college or don't think it's a priority.  But if you are taking even a partial AP/honors load, have 20 hours a week on an activity, and have high college aspirations, time management choices become very important.  That's why on applications I see lots of kids drop travel programs around freshman year of high school--- time pressures mount up and they have to chose to go on the sport route or the academic route.


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## dreambig (Feb 7, 2018)

Chalklines said:


> Totally agree with this but if your kids part of the bench mob and they cant be trusted on the field its time for a new club.
> 
> Playing time needs to be earned.


My son played for a coach who had an A and B teams training at the same time at U-9 (top tier both teams)
The A team won a lot of tournaments and my son was at the bench most of the time 
The B team lost games most of the times and my son played the complete games
My son is a great defender but a mistake on the A team ended up for a lot of yelling from the coach
A mistake on the B team not a big deal
Before the season started I told the coach I wanted my son to be on the B team because we where going to face the same competition anyway and my son will have more touches on the ball (he was stopping forwards 30 or more times per game and allowing 3 to 5 goals per game)
The defender on the A team will have it easy an allowing only 0 or 1 goal 
My son was identified by a good coach on a great team (my son was 10 years old) and he was invited to try out for the team. My son made the team (bench)
Right from the beginning it was all about development and the coach teached how to play from the back and if mistakes happened he will tell defenders he rather have mistakes right now than later in their soccer life’s
Now my son plays DA (he is 15) He has been the starter for the past 3 years and his team always finish on the top 3 teams and the goals allowed are one of the lowest
The A team from U-9  is playing silver level with no development and most of the defenders quit the game of soccer


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## Bananacorner (Feb 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> It is common to get caught in the middle of those two goals.  A kid who is better than 75% of everyone else but not in the top 10% and who has big ambitions may end up very frustrated in the club soccer world, because lower level "fun" soccer isn't competitive enough, and they continually get overlooked by the high level teams where they might have the opportunity to work their way into their highest potential.  This is kind of the worst case scenario, because as a parent you just don't know how far to go down the rabbit hole before you say, "this is insane."
> 
> So, in the end, it must always come back to "Are you having fun?"  Because it's sports, right?


So true. My DD is very good, and is a starter on a top-level team, but wasn't having fun because of the screaming coach who loves to use humiliation to modify behavior; too many practices (often scheduled at the last minute and expected to drop everything and attend); nasty,competitive parents and players.  If she was a more consistent top player on the team, or if she was really struggling, she may have been able to get by (coach rarely yells or humiliates the top 5-6 players and doesn't yell at all at the bottom 3-4 players), but she was good enough and not good enough to be one of the targets of his negativity.  I suggested moving to a different team, which is not as competitive -- but she also hates playing lower level soccer, she complains and refuses to participate.   Guess I'm going to be commuting...


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## Mystery Train (Feb 7, 2018)

Bananacorner said:


> Guess I'm going to be commuting...


Yep.  Been there.


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## El Clasico (Feb 7, 2018)

dreambig said:


> My son played for a coach who had an A and B teams training at the same time at U-9 (top tier both teams)
> The A team won a lot of tournaments and my son was at the bench most of the time
> The B team lost games most of the times and my son played the complete games
> My son is a great defender but a mistake on the A team ended up for a lot of yelling from the coach
> ...


My journey with mine has been very similar. If only Ulittle parents could understand this concept.  They are blinded by their own need to win and cannibalize their own children's potential because of it.  It is really unfortunate but this is contributing factor in the US inability to compete on the world stage.  Too many promising athletes are destroyed by their own parents.  Most want to blame the coaches and while yes, most are pieces of sh*t that could care less about the future of their players, the real culprit is the parents that know better because they have been told a million times by people who have seen and experienced it first hand, but the power of the track suit Sith is very strong.


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## Chalklines (Feb 7, 2018)

Observation from some of the belly aching

Quit being delusional when your kids sitting on the bench. Coaches aren't going to have great, good and excellent players ride the pine.

It's not always the coaches fault for lack of talent OR skill on game day. There's no shame in admitting that your son or daughter doesn't have what it takes to be on the field with the other kids.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Most of our kids were on a losing team at some point or another.  At your daughter's age, the only reason to be concerned about losing or winning is in the "how" of the losing or winning.  If the team is competitive but coming up short frequently, or if the coach is developing the girls' style and they are making mistakes (you said most of them are new to club, so this is to be expected) then the losing season(s) will just make the payoff that much sweeter as they get better.  If they work through the trust issues and develop, the losses are actually quite valuable.  On the other hand, if they are getting blown out in Bronze level games and the coach is yelling at players and the families are backstabbing over playing time and the girls are blaming each other, well then that's a whole different story.  A couple of seasons of that will kill off a kid's desire to continue forever.
> 
> The big questions you need to ask yourself as a parent to figure out how to manage your kids playing club soccer are:  Why are we doing this?  What are the short term and long term goals for the kids?  You and the kids need to have a very solid agreement on this.  Those answers will dictate the rest.  If they're doing it for fun, to learn the lessons that come from physical competition and team sports, to give them a foundation for a life-long love of sports, then your choice of coach/team/club will always be answered by them with this: *Are you having fun?*  Some kids aren't having fun unless they are winning and improving, so winning may be a factor in the decision, but it isn't the big one.
> 
> ...


Thanl you. This was great to read.
I know it isnt all about winning.  But wins also give the kids confidence.  Most of their loses during the spring/summer last year were by 1 or 2 goals.. During Fall they had some huge blow outs, 4 or 5 goal differential loses. 
After most games we ask how they felt they did that game, what they want to improve on for the next game and if they had fun.
They've both said they want to continue playing for as long as they can.
Right now they are with a team that i know they will get huge playing minutes, and they are on the same team... 
In a way, as their parents, we may be a bit selfish sticking with the current team becaue of the convenience...
Its all still so new to us and have enjoyed being educated on the ins and outs of the club world.


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## Surf Zombie (Feb 7, 2018)

There is a book called “Surving Club Soccer” which is a good read if you are new to this twisted little world.


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## jrcaesar (Feb 7, 2018)

To go back to the initial discussion and questions:
- Coach has 14 U12 Bronze players now, some don’t play much currently
- Coach wants to split this into two teams of U13 Bronze players in the fall.
- Means they still need 14 more girls for two, 11x11 teams with 14-player rosters.

So, yes, he is taking on Players for the money right now, because he needs to find enough girls for a second team.

That doesn’t necessarily mean you should leave. It’s a good situation for your two girls, both are bronze level players right now, training sound OK, and the girls are happy. What you should want to know more about: Where are these other girls going to come from? Does he have another complete AYSO Team to bring over (which is one source)? Is the club you’re in helping with this? That’s what would concern me more because of the potential chaos of having 17 girls for 14 spots.


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## jrcaesar (Feb 7, 2018)

p.s  Of course the other scenario is your 14 are the girls who play 11x11 next fall. If some girls are not “club level” but they are on the team anyway, truth is that really doesn’t impact much at Bronze because most Bronze teams will be in the same boat. It does matter in higher flights of tournaments and once you advance from Bronze. (Or, in SCDSL, this Team could play Flight 3 indefinitely.) 

You’ll want to reasssess after the fall season (first one at 11v11) either way.


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 7, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> To go back to the initial discussion and questions:
> - Coach has 14 U12 Bronze players now, some don’t play much currently
> - Coach wants to split this into two teams of U13 Bronze players in the fall.
> - Means they still need 14 more girls for two, 11x11 teams with 14-player rosters.
> ...


Right now we have about 20 girls practicing. But defintley still concerned about where the addition 5 or 6 will come from!
He made it a point to tell parents that if he didnt get enough girls for 2 teams he would need to make cuts and only roster 18. I still think thats too many players even for 11v11.
My 2 are still bronze level players, but as ive mentioned, have noticed improvements since AYSO..
From the girls that have been added, i dont worry that mine would be cut over other girls but it will certainly be something we keep in mind if we end up with only 1 team...

What are the appropriate "steps" to leaving 1 team for abother, in case it got to that point?


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## CC_SoccerMom3 (Feb 7, 2018)

Surf Zombie said:


> There is a book called “Surving Club Soccer” which is a good read if you are new to this twisted little world.


Thanks! Will need to look for this book!


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## jrcaesar (Feb 7, 2018)

We went through this chaos a couple years ago with the age group changes, and you’re about to enter with the switch to 11x11s at an age where coaches weren’t expecting it (thought it would happen at U11s), most teams in need of players. You have a “package” to offer coaches, which is unusual.  So if you do need to switch, find the clubs that practice near where you are willing to drive, then find the coaches of the (probably) Bronze teams and reach out directly with your story - keep it short and be honest about your DD's levels. You want the girls to be invited to 1-2 practices so you can see how the coach runs them and get an idea of the other players’ skills and attitudes. No other tryouts for them. 

Avoid group tryouts ... but when you see those posted, it’s a good call to action to reach out to a coach. But if the coach invites you to a group tryout in reply to your email, move on.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 7, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> What are the appropriate "steps" to leaving 1 team for abother, in case it got to that point?


From your various comments, I haven't seen anything that actually says the coach is a terrible soccer coach and not able to develop your girls.  Your girls are improving, getting playing time, and will get playing time if there will indeed be two teams.  Those are not the worst situations even if the coach is not the best communicator.  Perhaps give yourself a deadline to wait for the two teams situation to work out, but definitely protect yourself by paying the club fee monthly instead of a big lump sum (especially since you're paying for two).

In the meantime, follow jrcaesar's suggestions.  Nothing wrong with trying out to experience different coaches, different training styles, and different group of girls.  Go see a couple of games during State Cup to see the demeanor of the perceptive coaches on the sideline.  If your DDs are not terribly shy, they can probably tell you after just one training session whether they want to join the new team or not.

"Avoid group tryouts" -------absolutely.


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## Toch (Feb 7, 2018)

CC_SoccerMom3 said:


> 1. They get along well with almost all the girls on the team and ate happy to go to practice/games. On few occasions, they say they arent too happy with the coach.
> 2. We heard good an bad things about tje coach before starting. In our own experience, he has great training drills and ideas... communication (with both parents and players) needs alot of work!
> We come from the AYSO world, so we may not know all the criteria of what exactly a good coach should look like...
> 3. He does have a daughter on the team.



Definitely time to find a new team. Think of a coaching a teacher. If a teacher (in this case coach) doesn’t have good communication skills, how can he explain the lesson? Obviously this coach is looking to increase his monthly income by adding the 2nd team. I’m a firm believer in earning your spot and play time, but developement is more important. 
Time to go


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## socalkdg (Feb 7, 2018)

watfly said:


> 8 hours is nothing for a kid that is passionate and committed to their sport.  I can show you a whole room of dance girls that train 20 hours per week and are academic high achievers.  None of which will likely see a dime of scholarship money for dance.


Exactly.  Sophomore daughter goes about 18 hours per week with High School dance plus her competition studio.  All honors classes, has time to hit Disneyland once every other week, and spends way too much time with makeup and her phone.   I admit this is pushing her limit, but it is her choice.   I think every college would want to see kids spend at least 8-10 hours doing something outside school to show the balance in their life with their studies.  Kids are done with school by 3 pm.   Two hours soccer and 3 hours homework and its only 8 pm.   Middle school even easier.    Thus soccer for 8 hours is nothing.  I think it is more difficult on the parents.


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## CopaMundial (Feb 7, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Exactly.  Sophomore daughter goes about 18 hours per week with High School dance plus her competition studio.  All honors classes, has time to hit Disneyland once every other week, and spends way too much time with makeup and her phone.   I admit this is pushing her limit, but it is her choice.   I think every college would want to see kids spend at least 8-10 hours doing something outside school to show the balance in their life with their studies.  Kids are done with school by 3 pm.   Two hours soccer and 3 hours homework and its only 8 pm.   Middle school even easier.    Thus soccer for 8 hours is nothing.  I think it is more difficult on the parents.


Wow! You said it's only 8PM. And then what? Work a PT job till 10PM. Or are you meaning that sarcastic?  Because I'm not sure what we are asking of these kids. In talking to colleges of late, they are more interested in what kids have to say and what they are willing to do for the future. Burn out is insane!!! No dig on you, just that I'm not sure we have to fill every minute of every hour doing "something".


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## Grace T. (Feb 8, 2018)

CopaMundial said:


> Wow! You said it's only 8PM. And then what? Work a PT job till 10PM. Or are you meaning that sarcastic?  Because I'm not sure what we are asking of these kids. In talking to colleges of late, they are more interested in what kids have to say and what they are willing to do for the future. Burn out is insane!!! No dig on you, just that I'm not sure we have to fill every minute of every hour doing "something".


Agree with this.  The social, charitable, and just some down time to explore are also important to colleges that rely on more than just GP+scores.  Some like it if kids work, some don't.  A passion demonstrated in the child is also really great if it reconciles with "what kids have to say and what they are willing to do for the future"....if they say they love physics and spend all their time on dance and nothing on physics, dance isn't going to be much help beyond checking the "well rounded" box....if they love dance and want to do cheer squad, competitive college dance, or a dance major/minor that's also a plus.


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