# Club Selection



## Supermodel56 (Dec 21, 2016)

So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...

U12 and under
1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
1a) focus on individual skills and showcasing vs teamwork/passing/winning
2) level of play by teammates (being challenged)
3) league level of play
4) playing time
5) club reputation
6) winning team/ability to win games or have strong record
7) cost
8) amount of travel
9) coach credentials (level E vs B, etc..)
10) number of players on team
11) being best player on team
12) other parents that you get along with/friends
13) others?


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...
> 
> U12 and under
> 1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
> ...



This is an excellent question!  As with anything related to our children it is something that needs to be dealt with in an extremely thoughtful manner.  What is really interesting about the whole journey is that what club or team is the right fit might change over time as your player does.  The key question that you have to answer before I could give you advice is what does your player want out of it at this point?  Is she looking to play at the highest level or does she just like going to have fun with a group of friends?  For my player U11-U12 was when what she wanted started to diverge with what her original club team seemed to be about and a change became necessary.  Also I would say the answer differs for boys versus girls in my humble old fashioned opinion.


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## Sandypk (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...
> 
> U12 and under
> 1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
> ...


My dd is older, but when she was in U12 we definitely looked at:
1:   Coach first, has to be a good fit or your dd will not grow as a player.
2:  League/team that fits your dd's ability level, not too high and not too low.  Your dd needs to play, but yet still be challenged 
3:  I will not drive far to get her on the highest level team in Southern California.  I know some parents drive 1 1/2 hours or more for the top teams, so their priorities are much different.
Everything else to me doesn't matter.  Costs are all about the same everywhere.  Coach credentials don't matter too much, depends on the coach.  Number of players on the team doesn't matter if you dd is on the right team level.  You will make friends on any team.
Just my opinion, of course...


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## madcow (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...
> 
> U12 and under
> 1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
> ...


I didn't see having fun anywhere on your list.
For Ulittles, this is the only thing that matters, because without this, there won't be any of the other decisions to be made when they are Uolder.
Like Make a Play said, there will be a point when they decide what _they_ want to do (play with friends, be challenged, play HS, play college, etc.). At that point you can decide what path is right for your kid.


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## Striker17 (Dec 21, 2016)

Great question!
My opinion u9-u11 totally about ease, fun, development in the truest sense of the word. Who will actually TEACH the game. A W doesn't mean they can teach it means they can often recruit. 
For my friends it was about who has the top team, who won the most trophies. Being honest here sometimes you have to take the road less traveled.


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## Supermodel56 (Dec 21, 2016)

My DD is pretty passionate about soccer... Going into U10 she had already decided she wanted to play for the "better club" vs playing with her friends and took a lot of pride being able to make the A team and being one of only a handful of new players. I had warned her but she was willing to take the risk of riding the pine (whether for political or other reasons) for the opportunity to train with better players and a chance to compete for a starting role. She's ultra competitive and hates to lose - and she's not a selfish player at all - she's just as happy feeding her teammates and making great passes/crosses as she is scoring goals. 

She loves watching soccer and 2-3 times a week I'll catch her at home just messing around with the ball practicing her skills. 

She's in a good place right now but with so many things in the air it's uncertain what the team will look like next year... If we lose a couple of players (due to playing up or whatever) it will definitely change the dynamic and level of play. At which point we have to decide do we have her play up on an A team at a different club, stay, etc... 

Would love your thoughts!


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## Sandypk (Dec 21, 2016)

Yes, having fun is first.  But, why would they be playing club soccer if they aren't having fun?  
Soccer should be fun for them or they shouldn't be playing club.  When it becomes a chore, then you need to re-think your
dd playing.


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## Sandypk (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> My DD is pretty passionate about soccer... Going into U10 she had already decided she wanted to play for the "better club" vs playing with her friends and took a lot of pride being able to make the A team and being one of only a handful of new players. I had warned her but she was willing to take the risk of riding the pine (whether for political or other reasons) for the opportunity to train with better players and a chance to compete for a starting role. She's ultra competitive and hates to lose - and she's not a selfish player at all - she's just as happy feeding her teammates and making great passes/crosses as she is scoring goals.
> 
> She loves watching soccer and 2-3 times a week I'll catch her at home just messing around with the ball practicing her skills.
> 
> ...


It's great you found a good team with good players and your dd is being challenged.  Sounds like it's been a good experience so far and that is huge.  Every year with the teams changing/forming, it gets a bit scary.  What are the rest of the families talking about doing?  Are they staying?  If so, why leave?  Sounds like your dd will make the team again and get to play with her friends again.  Sounds like a win/win situation right now.  Unless, of course, other players decide to leave, coaching staff changes, and new players come in that change the dynamics.  Try-out time is not fun!!  You never know what you're gonna get, even with a new team.


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> My DD is pretty passionate about soccer... Going into U10 she had already decided she wanted to play for the "better club" vs playing with her friends and took a lot of pride being able to make the A team and being one of only a handful of new players. I had warned her but she was willing to take the risk of riding the pine (whether for political or other reasons) for the opportunity to train with better players and a chance to compete for a starting role. She's ultra competitive and hates to lose - and she's not a selfish player at all - she's just as happy feeding her teammates and making great passes/crosses as she is scoring goals.
> 
> She loves watching soccer and 2-3 times a week I'll catch her at home just messing around with the ball practicing her skills.
> 
> ...


If she is passionate about it and truly wants to push herself here is what I would do.

1. Pick a coach that is a good communicator.  Girls need to be spoken to in a certain way at that impressionable age so a coach that is able to communicate clearly his/her expectations and explain clearly how he/she wants things done to me seemed the right fit at that age.  I also agree with Madcow that having drills and practice sessions that are fun like gamifying them is a good thing for young competitive teams.  I would like to add that at this age I would recommend getting a good private skills trainer because the coach isn't going to have the time to spend exclusively on skills that is necessary to develop a really high level player of any position.

2.  Pick a club that has more than one good coach.  The reality is that in most of the more successful clubs which have the history of producing the majority of the more successful players tend to switch the teams coach anywhere from every 2-3 years.  This doesn't include the numerous other reasons that you might see a change in your daughters coach at some point.  I would be sure that there are other good coaches around.

3.  Pick a team with players with the same level of desire as your player.  This is HUGE as these are the kids that are going to be spending a ton of time with your player and their good and bad habits will be on full display for your players impressionable mind.  If your kid is around a bunch of motivated high achievers it is going to push her to do the same.  If she is around a bunch of mean girls and slackers it will either drag her down or frustrate her.

Those would be the 3 biggest considerations for me if I was picking the right place for my player.  I would always let her make the final decision.  It's good practice for her and if you line up a couple of good options it really puts the power in her hands while still maintaining a level of well meaning parental control.

At the end of the day the club is just a label.  You don't just buy clothes for the label you try them on to see if they fit.  Sometimes the off brand is a good fit sometimes the name brand is the best fit it just depends on the outfit.  Oh and how much Lycra is involved.  Just kidding.


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## Supermodel56 (Dec 21, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback! I didn't include "fun" simply because I feel like all of those factors go into "fun" - and I think it's important that it not only be fun for the kid, but also somehow "fun" for the parents too. Riding the pine is no fun (she's not), but at least for my daughter, neither is being on a team where no one else knows how to play "real" soccer.

I'm really interested in how YOU ALL would prioritize given all the complexities - so I'll hold off on getting too deep into our personal situation until further down. There are no "wrong" answers - since everyone has their own situations, but it'd be really valuable for me and hopefully others to  hear from folks who've been through it to get their views and thought process!


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## chargerfan (Dec 21, 2016)

Good coach that makes practices fun and informative. Nice girls that make good friends and teammates. That's all that matters. If you don't have these two things, leave. Otherwise, let them just have fun and develop a skill. 99.9% will end up being something other than pro soccer players, so creating good memories is what this is about.


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## Canicas (Dec 21, 2016)

All good points. For U12 and under this is a key developmental stage if they plan to continue playing Club. Many of the large clubs rates are relatively consistent but some will then  require parents/players to participate in fund raising campaigns or other related activities.   Instead, look for clubs that offer and actually provide good coaching, good skills programs and clinics that are focused on developing the players to be a proficient, knowledgeable and competitive as they get older.   Remember that parents are paying the club to provide all these key developmental opportunities.  Also, the club should have a consistent practice facility. Some clubs will often move from one location to another as well as practice times which can be challenging for parents, so keep all these things in mind when looking into other clubs.   Additionally, be cautious of clubs that have frequent coaching changes at these age level.

Many clubs will allow prospective players to train with a club for several sessions. Take advantage of this, this will allow you and your DD to really get a sense of the type of training being provided. You can also use this time to speak with parents about the program. Too often, parents will show up for one practice and make a decision right there and then, be patient and remember you are paying to see your DD improve and thrive in a good learning environment. Find the right one that fits your DD's development needs. On a related note, a parent must also be committed to the club. I've experienced cases where parents may have their DD playing other sports simultaneously.  This not a bad thing, but many times parents don't show up for practices or even games because of conflicting schedules. This can create issues among other parents and the coach. For example, if your DD is an impact player but misses practices and then shows up to a game and parents expect them to start and they do not, parents get upset.  Club soccer is a big commitment especially if you are serious about your DD's development. In short ask about the number of tournaments the club is planning on participating in so you can determine your level of commitment to not just the club but to your DD's other sports activities.  Don't be misled by clubs using the term "Try-outs".  Clubs will take you money! As mentioned above, use the so called try-out sessions to really see if the club fits your DD's developmental needs. Don't be afraid to check things out and make the change. Too often, parents will say that they feel obligated to stay with a club because they have made good friends with other parents or their DD has a good team bond.  Friends and bonds are great, but in the end as a parent you need to find the right club that wants to improve your DD's soccer skills and not just win to make a better name for the clubs benefit.  Again, you are paying the club. In closing there are several clubs out there that are very reasonable in cost and actually provide far more than the expensive clubs that are out there, but you need to take the time to test drive them!


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## watfly (Dec 21, 2016)

From a purely "Club Selection" standpoint I would choose a club that is player centered and not club centric...so not a club that is focused on its brand development.  We have been on both sides of that equation and the difference is dramatic.  A club that has a stable of good coaches with longevity with the club.

From a "Coach Selection" standpoint I want a coach that can communicate effectively with youth and can challenge kids in a fun environment.  Kids don't learn as effectively if they aren't enjoying what they're doing.  A coach that guides the kids but doesn't joystick their play.  A coach that allows mistakes.  A coach that instills confidence in kids.  A coach that shows passion for the game.

From a "Team Selection" a team where my child is not the best or the worst on the team,  challenging but not overwhelming.  A team with kids that my child will hang out with when not playing or practicing.


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## bruinblue14 (Dec 21, 2016)

I wish there was a Yelp for coaches. There are certain things I look for and want to hear coaches say, but at this point it's all just talk. Everyone says they teach possession, everyone says your kid will play, but how do you really know? I know the best way is to probably go watch them at a game or have your kid guest, but that's not always realistic in terms of time/opportunities/circumstances (at least for our family), and it's also just a snapshot of them at that moment.


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## Striker17 (Dec 21, 2016)

Sandypk said:


> Yes, having fun is first.  But, why would they be playing club soccer if they aren't having fun?
> Soccer should be fun for them or they shouldn't be playing club.  When it becomes a chore, then you need to re-think your
> dd playing.





bruinblue14 said:


> I wish there was a Yelp for coaches. There are certain things I look for and want to hear coaches say, but at this point it's all just talk. Everyone says they teach possession, everyone says your kid will play, but how do you really know? I know the best way is to probably go watch them at a game or have your kid guest, but that's not always realistic in terms of time/opportunities/circumstances (at least for our family), and it's also just a snapshot of them at that moment.


There is it's called ratemysoccercoach.com. A colorful site indeed
Out of curiosity I looked at my daughters coach. Funny how last year a person we know rated him 5/5 and I know for a fact this person has since spewed venom about the guy. 
Food and services are not emotional. Unfortunately our kids are to us and so it's difficult to ascertain who is upset about various things at club vs who is a real coach to avoid. 
I think  ulittles is the hardest but I know that by 13 we all kind of know the gig. We know who they are and our daughters can state I don't want to play for that guy. 
The only one that consistently gets tons of support and I cannot understand for the life of me why is a "famous futsal guy" who screams at seven year olds and recruits six year olds. No thanks


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## Striker17 (Dec 21, 2016)

This article was originally posted 3 years back 
It was so good at the time and I see that it was recently reposted .
It's all about the coach and it's great
http://goalnation.com/identifying-watching-developmental-saboteur/


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## bruinblue14 (Dec 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> There is it's called ratemysoccercoach.com. A colorful site indeed
> Out of curiosity I looked at my daughters coach. Funny how last year a person we know rated him 5/5 and I know for a fact this person has since spewed venom about the guy.
> Food and services are not emotional. Unfortunately our kids are to us and so it's difficult to ascertain who is upset about various things at club vs who is a real coach to avoid.
> I think  ulittles is the hardest but I know that by 13 we all kind of know the gig. We know who they are and our daughters can state I don't want to play for that guy.
> The only one that consistently gets tons of support and I cannot understand for the life of me why is a "famous futsal guy" who screams at seven year olds and recruits six year olds. No thanks


Interesting! But ya, unfortunately not that helpful considering experiences are relative. I guess we will have to go about it the old fashioned way.


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## chargerfan (Dec 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> This article was originally posted 3 years back
> It was so good at the time and I see that it was recently reposted .
> It's all about the coach and it's great
> http://goalnation.com/identifying-watching-developmental-saboteur/


Thanks for this. We haven't personally dealt with this situation but I have seen a lot of teams with big physical forwards and the rest of the players job is just to get the ball to them. I would avoid this kind of team at all costs.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Dec 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> This article was originally posted 3 years back
> It was so good at the time and I see that it was recently reposted .
> It's all about the coach and it's great
> http://goalnation.com/identifying-watching-developmental-saboteur/


Haha. Great article. Written about himself. Beware of coaches who use jargon but come play in my Elite Club National League


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## madcow (Dec 21, 2016)

MakeAPlay said:


> If she is passionate about it and truly wants to push herself here is what I would do.
> 
> 1. Pick a coach that is a good communicator.  Girls need to be spoken to in a certain way at that impressionable age so a coach that is able to communicate clearly his/her expectations and explain clearly how he/she wants things done to me seemed the right fit at that age.  I also agree with Madcow that having drills and practice sessions that are fun like gamifying them is a good thing for young competitive teams.  I would like to add that at this age I would recommend getting a good private skills trainer because the coach isn't going to have the time to spend exclusively on skills that is necessary to develop a really high level player of any position.
> 
> ...


well said


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## mahrez (Dec 21, 2016)

#1-2 on your list.
#13 Do you respect and like the coach(es) enough to give your all in training & at games? 
#14.  What as a player is your ideal coach, style of play,  team to play for?
15.  At the end ask your player, there good about choosing what best fits them.


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## Sped (Dec 21, 2016)

mahrez said:


> #1-2 on your list.
> #13 Do you respect and like the coach(es) enough to give your all in training & at games?
> #14.  What as a player is your ideal coach, style of play,  team to play for?
> 15.  At the end ask your player, there good about choosing what best fits them.



In all seriousness, if #15 isn't #1 on a parent's list, they're doing it wrong.


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## softwaretest (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> 3) league level of play


This is my favorite so you can be on one of these "top teams" who go play the highest level for two months and sandbag the rest of the year?  The coach controls the vast majority of what games your team plays throughout the year regardless of which league they are in for 10 weeks.  

90% of the decision should be focused on which coach because they absolutely have the biggest impact.


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## NoGoal (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...
> 
> U12 and under
> 1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
> ...


U12 and under....is the player happy and having fun!


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## NoGoal (Dec 21, 2016)

Sandypk said:


> Yes, having fun is first.  But, why would they be playing club soccer if they aren't having fun?
> Soccer should be fun for them or they shouldn't be playing club.  When it becomes a chore, then you need to re-think your
> dd playing.


You'll be surprise, a lot of times we parents get caught up with winning, our kids playing for a top team, or out kid needs to play with better players.  That we didn't realize we took the fun out of the equation.  I know I made this mistake from U10-U12 with my DD.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Dec 21, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> So as tryouts (official and unofficial) are happening over the next few months, I'd love your thoughts on what factors you'd prioritize in selecting a club/team for your DD/DS. Since my DD is younger and I know things change over time, this would primarily be for U12 and under. We're getting a new coach next year with a much different coaching style and there will be some movement on our current team where some of the better players might leave for various reasons... Here is an example with a few consideration factors but feel free to add your own or remove to simplify...
> 
> U12 and under
> 1) coaching style/temperament a good fit for player
> ...


Every coach will have their own priority and so will every parent. I like my friend's quote "Every parent is looking for the Unicorn coach, unfortunately they don't exist". These are just a few things I keep reminding myself that my mentor has passed on to me when it comes to coaching young players. Maybe it's something that can help parents use to observe their DD versus just dropping them off to practice or carry conversations with the other parents. Are the coaches doing these things?
*
MORE GAMES AND LESS ANALYTICAL EXERCISES*
Children should be exposed to more game plays (global method) and less practice with the analytical method. The practice should happen in the game.

*LET THE KIDS PLAY*
We should give children the opportunity to explore and to discover through “playing”, to infect them with the creativity shown by their teammates and opponents and without having the coach interceding frequently.

*PLAY IN ALL POSITIONS AND IN REDUCED SPACES*
Young players up to 13 years “should have the opportunity to play in different positions in order to discover the roles and functions which these positions characterize”.

*YOU MUST ENJOY THE GAME TO BE CREATIVE*
When the children play, they should have fun and be keen on the game. If the young player does not identify himself with the proposed game that the coach has designed, the creative capability will remain asleep.

*LET THE PLAYERS CREATE GAMES AND RULES*
Frequent rule changes, introduced by surprise during the practice of the game, force the players who want to win to adapt to the rule changes, using their creativity.

*DARE TO TAKE RISKS AND TO IMPROVISE*
The young players, especially those of 7 to 12 years, should not be pressured by their coach to quickly pass the ball in order to allow a better team-play and winning. They should frequently have the opportunity to “be in love with the ball”, to dare to improvise their play and take risks, without fearing the possible consequences of having committed a mistake or to have lost the possession of the ball.

*TRAIN THE RIGHT HEMISPHERE OF THE BRAIN*
Instead of the coach being the main character in the teaching and learning process, he should often transfer responsibility to his young pupils and ask them, through systematic questioning, to solve most of the situations that he presents. A true master in teaching never gives the answers to the problems, but helps his pupils to find and discover them on their own, guiding them to correct results.

*CREATIVE COACHES = CREATIVE PLAYERS*
Any flash of creative behavior in a player should be recognized by the coach who should do everything to encourage his players to be different and to look out for original solutions to the problems inherent in the game.

*THE ENVIRONMENT AS AN ENEMY OF CREATIVITY*
The environment of the young player is an enemy of his creativity. Nowadays most of our young talent grows in an atmosphere which is noticeably hostile towards creativity. Their familiar and scholastic surroundings, especially between the ages of 7 and 14 years, are characterized generally by a “intentional direction” of learning (with strict norms), which is limiting personal initiative, independence, originality and the value of trying to do things in different ways. Basically: _“instead of presenting fishes to the children, the students, or the players, the parents, teachers and coaches should teach them how to fish.”_


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## Supermodel56 (Dec 29, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the feedback - there was so much it's taken a while for me to digest and process... hopefully this response makes sense.

Sounds about right - having a good coach is #1 - Deadpool & MAP summarized the qualities well, which I believe we will have next year - he comes very highly recommended from a development standpoint,  I'd say #2 is teammate level of play. (Let's just agree that your DD has to want to be there and is having fun or it's a no go)

The problem is this - #1 & #2 can sometimes be in conflict with each other.  Here's what I mean, while the best coaches don't care as much about winning as much as development - parents of top players generally want to join clubs that have the best players and the first thing they check is league and tournament records. In fact, this past year, in spite of certain areas of growth needed for each player, overall, we had a pretty damn good core team - but we took several totally unnecessary losses mostly because of player rotations/positions and doing his best to give even playing time. TBH - as a parent this was extremely frustrating at times even though deep down you know it's the right thing to do but it's your kid on the bench at the time as you see a game slip away. We also had very few blowouts for that exact reason and our games were always played really close - another sign of a good coach - but prospective parents will never see that. 

I'm beginning to realize it really does hurt the team in some ways if they're not winning because many parents of top players will simply overlook the team just because of their record - or even leave because, well, it's better but not worth the drive. Then you end up with a solid core 5-6 who are top tier and the rest who simply may not be ready to play at that level - further exacerbating the problem.  Then the question becomes, do you go play for a second tier team and let your player be the "star" and get 100% playing time or stick with it? I guess that's my concern - for us, it's like the coaching is there, the club has been phenomenal, we get the opportunity to play against the top teams - frankly, all those boxes are checked - but ideally we'd like to pick up 2-3 players that can play at that high level so all the girls can be on the same page - I'm not sure whether or not it's going to be possible with our record and the tryout schedule, but I guess anything can happen. (personal rant)

Anyhow, it just goes to show how tough of a position it is to be a coach of a truly competitive team - there's always that conflict and even the best coaches make mistakes. Especially creative coaches who are willing to try new things - it's inevitable some things won't work.  As a parent, you've got to hope that people can see through the records and see that these are a few years of investment in their DD/DS's lives and love for the sport.


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## Sped (Dec 29, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback - there was so much it's taken a while for me to digest and process... hopefully this response makes sense.
> 
> Sounds about right - having a good coach is #1 - Deadpool & MAP summarized the qualities well, which I believe we will have next year - he comes very highly recommended from a development standpoint,  I'd say #2 is teammate level of play. (Let's just agree that your DD has to want to be there and is having fun or it's a no go)
> 
> ...



I notice that there's no discussion of #15 in there at all.


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## bruinblue14 (Dec 29, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback - there was so much it's taken a while for me to digest and process... hopefully this response makes sense.
> 
> Sounds about right - having a good coach is #1 - Deadpool & MAP summarized the qualities well, which I believe we will have next year - he comes very highly recommended from a development standpoint,  I'd say #2 is teammate level of play. (Let's just agree that your DD has to want to be there and is having fun or it's a no go)
> 
> ...


Wholeheartedly agree. We have been through this exact scenario.


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## Supermodel56 (Dec 29, 2016)

Sped said:


> I notice that there's no discussion of #15 in there at all.


I certainly appreciate that - I've heard so many stories about kids who've been pushed through by their parents only to resent them and quit the game once they hit puberty. For us though, the reason #15 is lower on the list, is because while it's important, at this age, our DD really doesn't know what she should do, in fact, right now WE don't even know what the "right" answer is when it comes to deciding on clubs. 

But the thing is, what if your DD wants to stay on a team where you know she isn't going to develop or you see the coach neglecting her but she doesn't see it? Or where her teammates are poor influences? Or you're on a team that travels to SD/OC every other weekend but she's just there because her best friend is on it and doesn't really care about soccer?  This is where #15 goes out the window and why it's #15 on the list.  Don't get me wrong, we certainly have discussions with our DD on how she feels and she's made the "right" choices so far - but  I see it as our role to help her make an informed decision and figure how among 1-14 how to prioritize...


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## Supermodel56 (Dec 29, 2016)

bruinblue14 said:


> Wholeheartedly agree. We have been through this exact scenario.


How did it turn out and any learnings you can share?


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## bruinblue14 (Dec 29, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> How did it turn out and any learnings you can share?


Choosing the development coach was the right thing for our dd but we know it's not right for everyone.  Having been to tryouts lately, i can see the difference in how she has learned to play and her technique. However, the coach did his job so well that she has now outgrown her team. As much as we would like to stay, the time has come for her to move up to a more competitive team per his suggestion (also a sign of a good coach). 

Our current coach encounters exactly what you mentioned--the scores don't show a "strong" team or coach so outsiders are reluctant to take the gamble and recruiting top players is a challenge. Some players have left because the parents are unhappy with the losing. Some of the players that tend to gravitate toward the team either need a lot of work or  lack the sort of innate aggressiveness or commitment you tend to see in top players. That's been a struggle for us.... players with good skill but that lack the drive or motivation or just straight up lack the grit and fight. 

We don't regret it at all though. Before our dd started working with her current coach, she really wasn't all that good. Recently, i've heard people say really great things about my kid and as much as i'd like to think it is pure talent, it's not. It's a combination of a tiny amount of athleticism, her being coachable, her willingness to work hard, and working with the right development-oriented coach the last few years.

I guess the question that needs to be asked is, what does your kid need in order to grow and reach whatever it is they're reaching for? In our experience, i wouldn't bank on those 2-3 players.


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## Woodwork (Dec 29, 2016)

Supermodel56 said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback - there was so much it's taken a while for me to digest and process... hopefully this response makes sense.
> 
> Sounds about right - having a good coach is #1 - Deadpool & MAP summarized the qualities well, which I believe we will have next year - he comes very highly recommended from a development standpoint,  I'd say #2 is teammate level of play. (Let's just agree that your DD has to want to be there and is having fun or it's a no go)
> 
> ...


I've been seeing this, too.  The way I see it is that there are two ways to get talent.  You can either grow it or you can recruit it.   Some places can do both, some can do one, and some can do neither.  

The "neither" clubs can't afford to have losing seasons in the interest of development, and as a result cut developmental corners a bit at the younger age group in order to get some wins, but then they suffer at the older age groups with poor retention and almost exclusively lower tier older teams.  No matter how much they win at 8 years old, youngers from those teams will still eventually leave for better teams once they start losing games for lack of development of individual ball skills or will leave for teams where the coach isn't constantly directing them or berating them for mistakes on the field.  These teams also have no depth because their second string players haven't seen time in a live game for two years.  When their starters leave, these teams tank.

A club that mostly grows its own talent needs to be fairly large with a strong youth base to pull from even when they lose top players.  That way they can pull from the "B" or "C" team for players when they have attrition.  If the "grower" clubs can hold teams together and not lose the talent they developed they can sometimes have those surprisingly good teams that make deep runs.  In addition, if you assume the most talented kid will leave for a DA team in any event, the time spent giving the backup forward playing time or rotating positions will eventually pay off.  It may not pay off as having the best team in So Cal, but at least the team won't tank to bronze or flight three level when one person leaves.  

 Clubs that are historically successful (SD Surf or Blues, for example) will always be able to recruit talented players.  Think of premier league teams like Man U or Chelsea.  They can have one or two garbage years but people will still line up.   Just the way it is.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Dec 30, 2016)

I am sure that many will disagree, but winning is over-rated - at the younger ages.  Winning is often more about parent's egos than the kids.  You have to be competitive; no one wants to get their teeth kicked in every game. But simply rating a team or a season based on the win and losses is a little silly. How did the team play as a group?  Do they understand soccer?  Did the kids grow?  Did the coach allow the kids to make mistakes?  Is the team just playing kickball?  

I was disappointed for our team this year when they lost.  Primarily because almost every game was winnable, but that is sports.  If the team isn't losing some games along the way  then they probably aren't playing a tough enough of a schedule.


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## MWN (Dec 30, 2016)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> I am sure that many will disagree, but winning is over-rated - at the younger ages.  Winning is often more about parent's egos than the kids.  You have to be competitive; no one wants to get their teeth kicked in every game. But simply rating a team or a season based on the win and losses is a little silly. How did the team play as a group?  Do they understand soccer?  Did the kids grow?  Did the coach allow the kids to make mistakes?  Is the team just playing kickball?
> 
> I was disappointed for our team this year when they lost.  Primarily because almost every game was winnable, but that is sports.  If the team isn't losing some games along the way  then they probably aren't playing a tough enough of a schedule.


My son is an 03 keeper is on a weak team that has to borrow players just to play 11 on the field.  For keepers there is a good argument that playing on a weak team provides accelerated development because he isn't getting 10 shots per game but 30.  During league, we played multiple games where the other keeper just stood on his 18 and watched shot after shot at my son.  So, did he grow?  Absolutely, grew a lot.  But, it came at a cost.  I notice that he adjusts his game because his defensive line is weak.  When he guests for more competitive teams or plays up on the 02' team he plays differently because he now trusts his defenders.

His coach is a development coach ... won't ever win State Cup, but as I write this, the boy is practicing in the rain with the other keepers because his coach is about development.  While he has offers to move to more competitive teams, I'm not-so-eager to move him as long as the boy continues his accelerated development.


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

Every one of these discussion breaks down to a question of “winning vs. developing.” It is assumed as a matter of faith that those goals are mutually exclusive.  But that assumption is bass-ackwards.  From everything I have ever seen, winning and development strongly correlate at all ages.

Again and again we hear that winning teams at the early ages are taking shortcuts which will impair in the long run, whereas losing teams are “developing” now (though there is no agreed-upon meaning of that term), and are truly building for the future; they will dazzle the early bloomers in years to come.  We hear this from many coaches and DOCs, and it is repeated by parents and posters like nuggets from the Good Book.  It is a lie propagated by coaches who cannot win games, and DOCs who cannot create competitive programs.

In the end, those who claim that winning and development do not associate are merely repeating the wisdom of an anonymous authority.  Which of these people give concrete examples from their own experience?  Examples are almost never provided, and when they are, the examples are so barren of context that they cannot be evaluated.

When you are looking for a team for your kid, you should naturally look for a coach who will help him or her to "develop," however it is that you define the term.  One indicator of a coach who "develops" players, among many, is whether that coach's teams can win games.


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Every one of these discussion breaks down to a question of “winning vs. developing.” It is assumed as a matter of faith that those goals are mutually exclusive.  But that assumption is bass-ackwards.  From everything I have ever seen, winning and development strongly correlate at all ages.
> 
> Again and again we hear that winning teams the early ages are taking shortcuts which will impair in the long run.  Whereas losing teams are “developing” now (though there is no agreed-upon meaning of that term).  Losing teams are truly building for the future; they will dazzle the early bloomers in years to come.  We hear this from many coaches and DOCs, and it is repeated by parents and posters like nuggets from the Good Book.  It is a lie propagated by coaches who cannot win games, and DOCs who cannot create competitive programs.
> 
> ...


Winning and developing aren't mutually exclusive but they aren't intimately tied together either.  My player played on a winning high school team but they would lose to a top level U15 team.  Why is that the case if winning was such a good indicator of development.  My judgement on whether a coach is developing my player has little to do with the team and everything to do with my player's individual improvement.

My player for most of her career played on a team that won plenty of games but never finished higher than 4th place once they were in the "top league."  They weren't a top 10 team nationally and never made it out of group play in the champions league but still developed her as a player.  That wasn't because they were winning games (honestly they lost plenty of games that they easily could have won had that been the point).  I can even think of a couple of showcase games where she didn't play a minute (one of them was Surf Cup) or played a different position.  I can also think of games where she played a different position because they needed to win to make it to the next round and they played direct kickball to win.  

The bottom line is winning is winning, developing players is developing players and they are two completely different things that might go together and then again they might not.


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## BarcaLover (Dec 30, 2016)

I'll give you an example of a team that didn't win a lot early on, but became a dominant team later because they were being "developed" at the younger ages.

The De Anza Force G98 team is coached by a guy that truly believes in possession soccer, building out of the back, development etc.  When he started with that team at U10, they got their brains beat in 0-8, 0-7, 1-9 all the time because they never played kickball and tried to build out of the back everytime they had the ball.

The girls obviously weren't skilled enough at that age and could not play fast enough to consistently build out and win games, but they were committed to this style of play that "developed" the players.

Fast forward to U14 and they won the ECNL National Playoffs.  They "WON" more than any other team in their age group.

So by being patient at the younger ages and being committed to "developing" the players, they ended up winning later on.

Tbe reason why this doesn't happen more often is because most parents aren't willing to stay on a team that doesn't win enough, regardless of whether or not their kid is developing.  

It's not that winning isn't important.  It is!  But it takes time to develop a team to play a "developing style of play" that can also win, and most parents don't have the patience for that.

Just my .02


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

MakeAPlay said:


> Winning and developing aren't mutually exclusive but they aren't intimately tied together either.  My player played on a winning high school team but they would lose to a top level U15 team.  Why is that the case if winning was such a good indicator of development.  My judgement on whether a coach is developing my player has little to do with the team and everything to do with my player's individual improvement.
> 
> My player for most of her career played on a team that won plenty of games but never finished higher than 4th place once they were in the "top league."  They weren't a top 10 team nationally and never made it out of group play in the champions league but still developed her as a player.  That wasn't because they were winning games (honestly they lost plenty of games that they easily could have won had that been the point).  I can even think of a couple of showcase games where she didn't play a minute (one of them was Surf Cup) or played a different position.  I can also think of games where she played a different position because they needed to win to make it to the next round and they played direct kickball to win.
> 
> The bottom line is winning is winning, developing players is developing players and they are two completely different things that might go together and then again they might not.


1.   Winning High School team would lose to a top-level U15 team:  Your assumption is that the high school coach must not be developing players because they would lose to a superb club team.  That is not a fair comparison, any more than it would be to claim that the same superb U15 team must not be developing because it cannot beat a mid-table team from the Pac-12.  Almost every high school team in America would lose to a superb U15 club team.  My guess is that the high school coach is developing his players fine when judged against other high schools.

2.  For your daughter to play on a team at that level means that she played on a team that would beat 90% of all teams at her age group.  That is a well-developed team, and your daughter must be a well-developed player.  The fact that her team does not win most of their games in Flight 1, or Premier League, or the Champions League, or whatever that level is named, does not equate with a "losing" team.  In your daughter's case, she plays on a team that would win most all of its games against club teams by an overwhelming margin, which to me correlates with development.


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

BarcaLover said:


> I'll give you an example of a team that didn't win a lot early on, but became a dominant team later because they were being "developed" at the younger ages.
> 
> The De Anza Force G98 team is coached by a guy that truly believes in possession soccer, building out of the back, development etc.  When he started with that team at U10, they got their brains beat in 0-8, 0-7, 1-9 all the time because they never played kickball and tried to build out of the back everytime they had the ball.
> 
> ...


In other words, the team started slow and lost a lot of games.  But they "developed" and became a "winning" team.  As they continued to develop they won more and more games.  They must have been promoted repeatedly as they won more games.  In other words, their development and their winning correlated.

Now, you don't say, but let's try to put some context into this.
1.  How many of the U10 players were still on the U14 ECNL team?
2.  How much roster turnover took place over 4 years?

Kudos to your coach for having a system and sticking with it.


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> 1.   Winning High School team would lose to a top-level U15 team:  Your assumption is that the high school coach must not be developing players because they would lose to a superb club team.  That is not a fair comparison, any more than it would be to claim that the same superb U15 team must not be developing because it cannot beat a mid-table team from the Pac-12.  Almost every high school team in America would lose to a superb U15 club team.  My guess is that the high school coach is developing his players fine when judged against other high schools.
> 
> 2.  For your daughter to play on a team at that level means that she played on a team that would beat 90% of all teams at her age group.  That is a well-developed team, and your daughter must be a well-developed player.  The fact that her team does not win most of their games in Flight 1, or Premier League, or the Champions League, or whatever that level is named, does not equate with a "losing" team.  In your daughter's case, she plays on a team that would win most all of its games against club teams by an overwhelming margin, which to me correlates with development.


She played on the same team for most of her club career so at some point there was development.  She was a diamond in the rough when she got there in 5th or 6th grade and her coaches that she had there ALL had something to do with developing her.  Let me be clear that they were a solid team.  However, they weren't about wins and losses.  I have had many conversations with her coaches over the years and I still speak to one of them routinely and it was always about taking the long view.  Never sacrificing today for tomorrow.  Not to mention they had the foresight to put her in the optimum position for her skill set and she now plays that position in college and internationally.  If the coach had only been about winning I am 100% certain that she would be playing a different position.


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

MakeAPlay said:


> She played on the same team for most of her club career so at some point there was development.  She was a diamond in the rough when she got there in 5th or 6th grade and her coaches that she had there ALL had something to do with developing her.  Let me be clear that they were a solid team.  However, they weren't about wins and losses.  I have had many conversations with her coaches over the years and I still speak to one of them routinely and it was always about taking the long view.  Never sacrificing today for tomorrow.  Not to mention they had the foresight to put her in the optimum position for her skill set and she now plays that position in college and internationally.  If the coach had only been about winning I am 100% certain that she would be playing a different position.


Well done for the coach and for your daughter.  I think you are reading something into my argument which does not exist.  I am not "only about winning."  I do not think that winning is the "only" thing, nor the "most important" thing.  Nor do I believe that "all" winning teams are developing their players.  All I am saying is that winning *highly correlates* with development.


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## BarcaLover (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Now, you don't say, but let's try to put some context into this.
> 1.  How many of the U10 players were still on the U14 ECNL team?
> 2.  How much roster turnover took place over 4 years?
> 
> Kudos to your coach for having a system and sticking with it.


Great question.  The core of the team, the big guns, stayed from U10 til college.  It was a very special group.  They did add a few players here and there, but the main contributors were there from Day 1.


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

BarcaLover said:


> Great question.  The core of the team, the big guns, stayed from U10 til college.  It was a very special group.  They did add a few players here and there, but the main contributors were there from Day 1.


Well, at U10 they were playing 8 v. 8, and probably had 10 on the roster.  As 1998s, they probably have 20 on the roster today.  Although you did not say, I'm guessing that the "core" amounts to about 4 or 5 players still on from Day 1.    I am speculating to be sure, but I would bet that you have roster turnover of about 5 per year, and also that a big part of the team's development comes via "roster development," meaning that really good players are attracted to the team because it has a winning record and/or an attractive style of play.

To me this highlights the problem of trying to determine how much  "development" can be attributed to training, and how much through other over avenues.  Good recruiters build up teams just as well as good trainers, and all players remaining on the team benefit in their individual development, because they compete against better players every practice.  Surf and the Blues develop great teams and great players, but if we are honest it is more through roster development than training development.  Yet the result is the same.


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Well done for the coach and for your daughter.  I think you are reading something into my argument which does not exist.  I am not "only about winning."  I do not think that winning is the "only" thing, nor the "most important" thing.  Nor do I believe that "all" winning teams are developing their players.  All I am saying is that winning *highly correlates* with development.


Fair enough.  I would add that it highly correlates with development at the older ages not necessarily at the younger ages.  Good luck to you and yours.


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## BarcaLover (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Well, at U10 they were playing 8 v. 8, and probably had 10 on the roster.  As 1998s, they probably have 20 on the roster today.  Although you did not say, I'm guessing that the "core" amounts to about 4 or 5 players still on from Day 1.    I am speculating to be sure, but I would bet that you have roster turnover of about 5 per year, and also that a big part of the team's development comes via "roster development," meaning that really good players are attracted to the team because it has a winning record and/or an attractive style of play.


The "core of players" I was referring to was about 10-11 girls from U11 on when they had a roster of 16-17.  And trust me, I totally understand your point and what you are saying about how roster turnover can skew things. If a coach can recruit really well in the off season he can go from looking like an average coach to looking like Pep Guardiola the next season  .


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## Daniel Miller (Dec 30, 2016)

BarcaLover said:


> The "core of players" I was referring to was about 10-11 girls from U11 on when they had a roster of 16-17.  And trust me, I totally understand your point and what you are saying about how roster turnover can skew things. If a coach can recruit really well in the off season he can go from looking like an average coach to looking like Pep Guardiola the next season  .


Any coach who can keep 10 or 11 girls on a high-performing team from U11 through high school has done an amazing job.  That takes more than good training.  It takes motivation, team-building and good family politics.  I stand head-bowed in respect.


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## BarcaLover (Dec 30, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Any coach who can keep 10 or 11 girls on a high-performing team from U11 through high school has done an amazing job.  That takes more than good training.  It takes motivation, team-building and good family politics.  I stand head-bowed in respect.


Totally agree.  This coach is special.  He grew up in Barcelona and learned all the training methods used at Barca and used them with this team.  

The most important part was the parental "buy in" at the early ages.  They trusted him and hoped he knew what he was doing  .

This team is definitely the exception.  They are the anomoly for sure.

If you want to see what they looked like playing go on youtube and look up "De Anza Force G98 Top Plays".  If you like possession soccer, you'll love this team!


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