# Size VS Skill, when do you see a difference.



## 46n2 (Feb 2, 2018)

At what age group do you see the switch when being a big player doesnt matter anymore.
Or
When being a smaller player with skill isnt enough against larger challengers.

With one of my kids U12 was the year we notice that you have to have both to be competitive and impressive on the field.


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 2, 2018)

When kids move from the small field to big field.


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## seuss (Feb 2, 2018)

Tons of impressive, competitive, smaller kids after u12. Check out the height of a lot of galaxy and galaxy 2 men’s team players. Plenty of them under 6 feet.
https://www.lagalaxy.com/players


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## Surfref (Feb 2, 2018)

Size should play no role in soccer if the coach actually knows what they are doing and the players have decent skills.  Where I do see a difference is on the lower level teams that use the big players to push around the smaller less skilled players.  Once those big players encounter skilled players their advantage is neutralized.  I think that some coaches do a disservice to those younger big players by just putting them in a defensive position and just telling them to clear the ball.  I saw it last weekend while refereeing 10U girls and boys at state cup. Those big boys and girls were all put in that center defense position with one mandate, clear the ball out of the back.  The smaller players had trouble getting around them initially, but soon learned to use speed and pass around the big player.

My 5'2" daughter played in college against women a foot taller than her.  She had no problem with the size difference because she had the skills needed, had speed, and was strong. She would be in the weight room 4-5 days a week to make sure that when those taller girls bumped into her they were the ones bouncing off.  Growing up she was normally one of the smallest players on the team, but she always worked hard to make up for her size by having superior skills and speed compared to the bigger girls.


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## socalkdg (Feb 2, 2018)

For physical attributes I still think it goes speed first,  then overall strength(extra 10 LBs of muscle can make a difference) then height last.   This is on the girls side.


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## GKDad65 (Feb 2, 2018)

For us it was the 14-16 age that things changed for most of the "early" bloomers.  All those u-little hotshots fell off the radar and the "good" (but not great) u-littles that stuck it out began to come into their own.
So many of the young stars have since left soccer for other sports, or girlfriends/boyfriends.  
I feel sorry for those parents that put so much into the early soccer years only to have their dreams of u-little stardom crushed
by the inevitable hormone changes.
Of course, they can still be high school stars...


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## Tiki_Taka (Feb 2, 2018)

As the kids get older, it's typically the ones with size AND speed that play at an elite level.  All players playing at an elite level have skill.  There are always exceptions.  Speed seems to be a prerequisite for skill.  I don't see too many players that are slow and show skill.


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## Jack23 (Feb 2, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> For physical attributes I still think it goes speed first,  then overall strength(extra 10 LBs of muscle can make a difference) then height last.   This is on the girls side.


What about skill? At my DD age group 06/05 you always hear parents complaining that a kid only made ODP or only starts on the top team because she is big and fast.  I feel like parents use the (my kid has skill but is small) as an excuse.  Your kid is just not good enough plain and simple. Get over it.  If she were, size would not matter.  There is an 05 player on the U14 National team who is on the smaller side, but is strong, fast and skilled and can out play girls in the 02 age group.


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## 3leches (Feb 2, 2018)

Jack23 said:


> What about skill?   I feel like parents use the (my kid has skill but is small) as an excuse.  Your kid is just not good enough plain and simple. Get over it.  If she were, size would not matter.  There is an 05 player on the U14 National team who is on the smaller side, but is strong, fast and skilled and can out play girls in the 02 age group.


As a parent of 3 soccer players of various sizes, I have to agree. I have a smaller players but they are strong from the core, so they are not knocked over easily. You can be a smaller player and stand out at any age.


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## Sokrplayer75 (Feb 2, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Size should play no role in soccer if the coach actually knows what they are doing and the players have decent skills.  Where I do see a difference is on the lower level teams that use the big players to push around the smaller less skilled players.  Once those big players encounter skilled players their advantage is neutralized.  I think that some coaches do a disservice to those younger big players by just putting them in a defensive position and just telling them to clear the ball.  I saw it last weekend while refereeing 10U girls and boys at state cup. Those big boys and girls were all put in that center defense position with one mandate, clear the ball out of the back.  The smaller players had trouble getting around them initially, but soon learned to use speed and pass around the big player.
> 
> My 5'2" daughter played in college against women a foot taller than her.  She had no problem with the size difference because she had the skills needed, had speed, and was strong. She would be in the weight room 4-5 days a week to make sure that when those taller girls bumped into her they were the ones bouncing off.  Growing up she was normally one of the smallest players on the team, but she always worked hard to make up for her size by having superior skills and speed compared to the bigger girls.


Agree, I don't think size of a player gives any advantage whatsoever. It all comes down to the mental aspect of the game paired with speed, skills, toughness and soccer IQ.


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 2, 2018)

Sokrplayer75 said:


> Agree, I don't think size of a player gives any advantage whatsoever. It all comes down to the mental aspect of the game paired with speed, skills, toughness and soccer IQ.


Agree. As an example some of the best (in my opinion) USWNT players are smaller than 5'5.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 2, 2018)

When you start seeing games being played more beautifully by kids as a team, those with soccer IQ and skills will shine.

To name just a few from the 2011 Barcelona squad, IMHO and considered by many the greatest club team ever.  Even their GK is relatively short:
Dani Alves 5'8"
Xavi 5'6"
Iniesta 5'7"
Messi 5'7"
Pedro 5'6"
Valdez 6'0" (GK)


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## Lambchop (Feb 2, 2018)

seuss said:


> Tons of impressive, competitive, smaller kids after u12. Check out the height of a lot of galaxy and galaxy 2 men’s team players. Plenty of them under 6 feet.
> https://www.lagalaxy.com/players


Yes. How successful are they as a team.  Ultimately it is skills, soccer IQ, athleticism, work ethic, size, speed ALL come into play in how successful a player is and a team is.


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## outside! (Feb 2, 2018)

Parents of youngers that are big, strong and fast need to supplement with some kind of training that emphasize skill. Back in the day, DD was usually the fastest player on the field. I would tell her that someday that would not be the case and to concentrate on improving her skills. We took her to futsal clinics and private lessons to work on skills and first touch. Despite what some naysayers will tell you, juggling is important also.


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## jayjay (Feb 2, 2018)

For Boys, I say U14/U15 and depends on early puberty or late.  I have a late bloomer December birthday 14 yo who looks like a little boy on a team with young men who went through puberty early, it's not just height but the difference in muscle mass.  Many are the size of their dads already whereas he's expected to be 6'4" and is currently 5'2".


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## SoccerFan4Life (Feb 2, 2018)

With one of my kids U12 was the year we notice that you have to have both to be competitive and impressive on the field.[/QUOTE]

For boys, I think it really comes down to how quick and balanced they are compared to the big kids.    I've seen small kids that can take a hit and use their core to stay up and use their footwork to get around the big guys.   

My child is a young Freshman and he is finally keeping up with the bigger kids thanks to his speed and footwork. He needs another 10lbs (currently at 103lbs) to really begin to muscle out the defense.


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## zebrafish (Feb 2, 2018)

I can see this shift happening in my own kid's age already. In the 10-ish year old girls' age group, giant lumbering girls have been at the advantage. Partly a size/strength issue, partly a fear issue.

Passing and dribbling by opponents is catching up to them, however. This week, in fact, my own kid juked a larger/slower player and left her in the dust off the dribble. 

I think at this age the skilled players are putting together an understanding of passing as well as the motor coordination to use moves/feints to conquer the slower opponent. I'm hoping the tide turns quickly.


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## JJP (Feb 3, 2018)

The order of importance is 1) skills/ball mastery, 2) foot speed/quick feet, 3) high soccer IQ, then enough size so you are not easily knocked off the ball.

College players should be bigger because there are more substitutions.  International players should be smaller because they play on bigger fields for 90 mins. with only 3 subs.

In basketball, there’s no disadvantage to being longer and taller.  LeBron James is huge, Kevin Durant is ridiculously long.

In soccer bigger players have to carry more weight, they get tired faster and they have a harder time changing directions, and they usually have bigger feet which makes ball control more difficult.  So in soccer size gives you some advantages but also some disadvantages.  Top soccer players like Messi, CRonaldo and Neymar are not freakishly large or huge, but they are freakishly strong for their normal size.


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## John Clee-Charlton (Feb 3, 2018)

1st Soccer IQ is the biggest factor for a coach,
2nd is skills the ability to know when to execute a pass/step over/ give and go not just being able to execute.
3rd speed of thought/speed of body movements
4th athleticism

U13 - International are played on the same size field. 

The dream of most coaches is to have a player that can be taught to know when to collect the ball when to give the ball when to keep the ball.


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## Josep (Feb 3, 2018)

The only thing that matters regarding size is the size of the player’s heart.  

If they have that, no matter how big or small, they will have the skill.  

Agree with surfref.  If your team is relying on the big kid or the fast kid at any age, you’ve got the wrong coach.


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## espola (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> The only thing that matters regarding size is the size of the player’s heart.
> 
> If they have that, no matter how big or small, they will have the skill.
> 
> Agree with surfref.  If your team is relying on the big kid or the fast kid at any age, you’ve got the wrong coach.


What's wrong with speed?


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## Lambchop (Feb 3, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> When you start seeing games being played more beautifully by kids as a team, those with soccer IQ and skills will shine.
> 
> To name just a few from the 2011 Barcelona squad, IMHO and considered by many the greatest club team ever.  Even their GK is relatively short:
> Dani Alves 5'8"
> ...





GKDad65 said:


> For us it was the 14-16 age that things changed for most of the "early" bloomers.  All those u-little hotshots fell off the radar and the "good" (but not great) u-littles that stuck it out began to come into their own.
> So many of the young stars have since left soccer for other sports, or girlfriends/boyfriends.
> I feel sorry for those parents that put so much into the early soccer years only to have their dreams of u-little stardom crushed
> by the inevitable hormone changes.
> Of course, they can still be high school stars...


When full puberty happens, by age 16 or 17,  short, average or tall, it's a different ball game.


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## Josep (Feb 3, 2018)

Nothing wrong with speed. 

Too many team rely on it and play kick and chase with the speedster at the young age.  This does a disservice to the rest of the kids of playing soccer. When you get older the speed across the playing field evens out.  

DBs and CBs can be just as fast if not faster than strikers.


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## LASTMAN14 (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> Nothing wrong with speed.
> 
> Too many team rely on it and play kick and chase with the speedster at the young age.  This does a disservice to the rest of the kids of playing soccer. When you get older the speed across the playing field evens out.
> 
> DBs and CBs can be just as fast if not faster than strikers.


Your last statement is very true.


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## espola (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> Nothing wrong with speed.
> 
> Too many team rely on it and play kick and chase with the speedster at the young age.  This does a disservice to the rest of the kids of playing soccer. When you get older the speed across the playing field evens out.
> 
> DBs and CBs can be just as fast if not faster than strikers.


Speed is always good.


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## JJP (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> Nothing wrong with speed.
> 
> Too many team rely on it and play kick and chase with the speedster at the young age.  This does a disservice to the rest of the kids of playing soccer. *When you get older the speed across the playing field evens out.*
> 
> DBs and CBs can be just as fast if not faster than strikers.


No way.  As the kids get older the best players start separating even further from the pack.  If that kind of separation didn’t happen, you wouldn’t have elite players.

And any striker that can’t outrun CBs needs to find a new position.


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## Josep (Feb 3, 2018)

JJP said:


> No way.  As the kids get older the best players start separating even further from the pack.  If that kind of separation didn’t happen, you wouldn’t have elite players.
> 
> And any striker that can’t outrun CBs needs to find a new position.



If you’re playing good soccer, you don’t need to rely on speed.  I don’t know what level you’re watching but speedy Katie or johnie blasting 4-5 goals in an 8-0 game doesn’t happen at the games I watch.  

Many of the teams attempt to play good soccer. There is build up and goals are made very much with what you see on the professional levels. 

Also some of the better strikers globally and at the highest level of club (DA, Ecnl) are skilled and don’t rely on speed either.


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## Raggamufin (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> If you’re playing good soccer, you don’t need to rely on speed.  I don’t know what level you’re watching but speedy Katie or johnie blasting 4-5 goals in an 8-0 game doesn’t happen at the games I watch.
> 
> Many of the teams attempt to play good soccer. There is build up and goals are made very much with what you see on the professional levels.
> 
> Also some of the better strikers globally and at the highest level of club (DA, Ecnl) are skilled and don’t rely on speed either.


Speed is part of the game
This is the evaluation for my son , who just got an offer from a top D1 school.
*Speed - *Great speed overall, in particular when running into space. Will be an important asset going forward


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## Surfref (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> Nothing wrong with speed.
> 
> Too many team rely on it and play kick and chase with the speedster at the young age.  This does a disservice to the rest of the kids of playing soccer. When you get older the speed across the playing field evens out.
> 
> DBs and CBs can be just as fast if not faster than strikers.


When I talk about speed I am not talking about kickball soccer.  I am talking about players that have speed when they have the ball at their feet, are fast and accurate with their passes and with speed off the ball.


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## JJP (Feb 3, 2018)

Josep said:


> If you’re playing good soccer, you don’t need to rely on speed.  I don’t know what level you’re watching but speedy Katie or johnie blasting 4-5 goals in an 8-0 game doesn’t happen at the games I watch.
> 
> Many of the teams attempt to play good soccer. There is build up and goals are made very much with what you see on the professional levels.
> 
> Also some of the better strikers globally and at the highest level of club (DA, Ecnl) are skilled and don’t rely on speed either.


Who are the 3 top consensus offensive players?  C Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar.   They are fast as hell in addition to being incredibly skilled.

Barcelona spent €140 million on Ousmane Dembele.  Have you ever seen that kid run?  His legs are a blur.  PSG spent gobs of money on Mbappe.  That kid is ridiculously fast.   I suppose Man U spending hundreds of millions of pounds on Pogba and Anthony Martial had nothing to do with their insane speed.

When the worlds top clubs and talent scouts are betting the GDP of small countries on players with different play styles and skill sets but are all possessed with blazing speed, I have to believe speed is pretty damn important, and that posters on this board who think speed is not critical to an offensive player are probably the parent of one of those “good” slow players.


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## Lambchop (Feb 4, 2018)

JJP said:


> Who are the 3 top consensus offensive players?  C Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar.   They are fast as hell in addition to being incredibly skilled.
> 
> Barcelona spent €140 million on Ousmane Dembele.  Have you ever seen that kid run?  His legs are a blur.  PSG spent gobs of money on Mbappe.  That kid is ridiculously fast.   I suppose Man U spending hundreds of millions of pounds on Pogba and Anthony Martial had nothing to do with their insane speed.
> 
> When the worlds top clubs and talent scouts are betting the GDP of small countries on players with different play styles and skill sets but are all possessed with blazing speed, I have to believe speed is pretty damn important, and that posters on this board who think speed is not critical to an offensive player are probably the parent of one of those “good” slow players.[/QU b


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## Lambchop (Feb 4, 2018)

JJP said:


> Who are the 3 top consensus offensive players?  C Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar.   They are fast as hell in addition to being incredibly skilled.
> 
> Barcelona spent €140 million on Ousmane Dembele.  Have you ever seen that kid run?  His legs are a blur.  PSG spent gobs of money on Mbappe.  That kid is ridiculously fast.   I suppose Man U spending hundreds of millions of pounds on Pogba and Anthony Martial had nothing to do with their insane speed.
> 
> When the worlds top clubs and talent scouts are betting the GDP of small countries on players with different play styles and skill sets but are all possessed with blazing speed, I have to believe speed is pretty damn important, and that posters on this board who think speed is not critical to an offensive player are probably the parent of one of those “good” slow players.


Sure, and all our players will play in the Bundesliga, or LaLiga, or the Premier League, or Serie A and make millions of dollars. Those top players are few and far between out of millions of players in Europe who have played soccer.


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## Lambchop (Feb 4, 2018)

Raggamufin said:


> Speed is part of the game
> This is the evaluation for my son , who just got an offer from a top D1 school.
> *Speed - *Great speed overall, in particular when running into space. Will be an important asset going forward


As will be ball skill, soccer IQ, work ethic, and athleticism.  It is all important.


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## galaxydad (Feb 4, 2018)

This is a good one. I’ve think there are two approx ages where size is an issue. U little as the beast kid can bully and kick the ball with more force and score from further out as no keepers can stop the shot that hit the top of the net.

Then it’s an issue again at U14-u16 as some have stated with early puberty Vs late.

Another point is the team they are on and style of play. If the team knocks the ball around good and are skilled players size is less important BUT quickness and speed must be with the smaller player.

Teams that play direct physical style typically need a big strong fast player to be successful


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## JJP (Feb 4, 2018)

Lambchop said:


> Sure, and all our players will play in the Bundesliga, or LaLiga, or the Premier League, or Serie A and make millions of dollars. Those top players are few and far between out of millions of players in Europe who have played soccer.





Lambchop said:


> As will be ball skill, soccer IQ, work ethic, and athleticism.  It is all important.


Lambchop, just because the players who have it all — great skill, incredible speed, high soccer IQ — are rare, that’s why everyone is looking for those type of players.  And I’m telling you, coaches get excited about raw speed more than any other characteristic.

Because you can coach skill, you can coach soccer IQ, but you can’t coach speed.  The guys who are burners and can last 90 mins. are rare, and they are the lucky winners of the genetic lottery that everyone is trying to find.

There are tons of free stylists all over Europe, S. America and even Asia whose ball mastery and ball skills are as good as, if not better, than Messi and Neymar.  But none of them can run like Neymar, and certainly they can’t do the type of things he can running at top speed like he does.

I’m going to use my son as an example.  He has fantastic skills, but there are a lot of academy players with comparable skills or even better, but there are very, very few that have his combo of speed and strength.  He is not playing academy but he has open offers from 3 academy teams to join whenever he wants.  I always ask the academy coaches, “Why do you even want this fool, he makes so many stupid mental mistakes.  And half the time he’s just grabassing in practice.”  They all say, “I can fix stupid, I can’t coach his speed or physicality.”


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## smellycleats (Feb 4, 2018)

JJP said:


> Lambchop, just because the players who have it all — great skill, incredible speed, high soccer IQ — are rare, that’s why everyone is looking for those type of players.  And I’m telling you, coaches get excited about raw speed more than any other characteristic.
> 
> Because you can coach skill, you can coach soccer IQ, but you can’t coach speed.  The guys who are burners and can last 90 mins. are rare, and they are the lucky winners of the genetic lottery that everyone is trying to find.
> 
> ...


 Totally disagree with the last statement.  You can’t fix stupid.


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## galaxydad (Feb 4, 2018)

I’d be utterly shocked if he makes it in academy. Need hard work and dedication 




JJP said:


> Lambchop, just because the players who have it all — great skill, incredible speed, high soccer IQ — are rare, that’s why everyone is looking for those type of players.  And I’m telling you, coaches get excited about raw speed more than any other characteristic.
> 
> Because you can coach skill, you can coach soccer IQ, but you can’t coach speed.  The guys who are burners and can last 90 mins. are rare, and they are the lucky winners of the genetic lottery that everyone is trying to find.
> 
> ...


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## zebrafish (Feb 4, 2018)

JJP said:


> I always ask the academy coaches, “Why do you even want this fool, he makes so many stupid mental mistakes.  And half the time he’s just grabassing in practice.”  They all say, “I can fix stupid, I can’t coach his speed or physicality.”


I've seen a lot of coaches who can't fix stupid, also. But I think they all think they can.


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## JJP (Feb 5, 2018)

smellycleats said:


> Totally disagree with the last statement.  You can’t fix stupid.





galaxydad said:


> I’d be utterly shocked if he makes it in academy. Need hard work and dedication


Nah.

No matter how hard he works or how smart he plays, a donkey is still a donkey, and a smart slow player will always be a major defensive liability, never win through balls and lose out on most 50-50 balls.  There’s a very limited number of smart slow players you can have on a team before your team is utter shit defensively.

I’ve seen plenty of kids work hard and hit the upper level of their talent and fail to progress, no matter how hard they try.  I’ve seen all these kids take speed training and the slow players get a little faster, but I have never seen a slow player become fast.  I’ve asked speed trainers if they have ever turned a slow kid into a fast kid, and the answer is never.  And then I’ve seen truly talented players who have good basic ball mastery decide OK I’m gonna turn it on and they start killing everyone, especially in the girls game.

Sports is not like other activities, the physical talent is so important.  A guy who thinks 5% faster, it’s not a big deal in an office job, getting your paperwork done a little bit later doesn’t matter.  But a guy whose 5% faster will get to every 50-50 ball first, a guy whose 5% stronger will win every 50-50 challenge, the guy who jumps 5% higher than everyone else will put his head on a 50-50 air ball first.

And the mental aspect of sports is not like learning superstring theory, or quantum gauge theories, or dualities in anti-de Siter spaces.  Anyone with slightly above average IQ can learn or figure out what they need to.

The fact is that most kids in academy are good soccer players and decent athletes, but very, very few of them are great athletes.  The few that are great athletes and have skills IMO really stand out and honestly, the rest of the players in academy league are there to support those few diamonds in the rough.


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## soccer_dad (Feb 5, 2018)

"Sports is not like other activities, the physical talent is so important.  A guy who thinks 5% faster, it’s not a big deal in an office job, getting your paperwork done a little bit later doesn’t matter.  But a guy whose 5% faster will get to every 50-50 ball first, a guy whose 5% stronger will win every 50-50 challenge, the guy who jumps 5% higher than everyone else will put his head on a 50-50 air ball first."

You don't think a guy whose brain functions 5% faster will win every 50-50 challenge? You don't think a guy whose brain functions 20% faster will create mismatches to their advantages before the other team realize them?


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## outside! (Feb 5, 2018)

The best way to win a short drag race is to start before the other person.


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## JJP (Feb 5, 2018)

soccer_dad said:


> "Sports is not like other activities, the physical talent is so important.  A guy who thinks 5% faster, it’s not a big deal in an office job, getting your paperwork done a little bit later doesn’t matter.  But a guy whose 5% faster will get to every 50-50 ball first, a guy whose 5% stronger will win every 50-50 challenge, the guy who jumps 5% higher than everyone else will put his head on a 50-50 air ball first."
> 
> You don't think a guy whose brain functions 5% faster will win every 50-50 challenge? You don't think a guy whose brain functions 20% faster will create mismatches to their advantages before the other team realize them?


No.  How hard is it to recognize a loose ball?  I’m a lot smarter than my dog (I think), but he will win every game of fetch.

And what’s the mismatch everyone is looking for?  Attacking the slowest defender.


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## Messi>CR7 (Feb 5, 2018)

Usain Bolt supposedly is trying out for Borussia Dortmund.  Let's see if speed matters 

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/usain-bolt-borussia-dortmund-trial-as-football-career-beckons-manchester-united-dream-for-jamaican-467874.jsp


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## wildcat66 (Feb 12, 2018)

Size vs skill is neutralized in one vs one, but when it is team vs team it is a different story.  I have seen those big, strong aggressive teams who play that more physical type of soccer really take the skillful, speedy team out of the game.  When every tackle is a collision, every 50/50 ball results in someone coming off their feet, and  player are not afraid to push the envelope of getting fouls or cards (part of the game as far as I am concerned) the size/strength factor is a big plus.  Imagine if Messi was laid out by a 240+ defender a few times each game, Ronaldo got run over by a linebacker sized mid fielder frequently, and when you are trying to kick a pk against a guy the size of Lebron James every time.


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## mirage (Feb 12, 2018)

JJP said:


> ......No matter how hard he works or how smart he plays, a donkey is still a donkey, and a smart slow player will always be a major defensive liability, never win through balls and lose out on most 50-50 balls.........


You know, what you'er saying makes logical sense and like you, I used to be one of those people who believed bigger, faster and stronger is better.  Given if all things being equal, who wouldn't want someone faster, bigger and stronger?  Right?  I noticed not just this thread but you advocated the same points in the other thread too.

What I've seen and have learned is that not all things are equal and there is an optimal size for any given sports.  Soccer happens to require not just top speed and strength, but agility and quickness that comes with having compact motions and knowing how best to use angles.  Soccer players need to create separation somehow.  It can come from brut force strength and speed or from quickness and agility.  When someone is tall (say over 6'), the limbs and motions tend to be bigger and actual time to make changes in direction or any action takes longer than someone who is 5-8"~5-10".  (there are exception here too - just look at Cristiano or better yet bigger LeBron James) 

Since soccer is a compilation of small, tight space game played on a large field, the players ability to create separation and quick movements are of significant value.

Without making any references to Messi and Naymars' of the world, because they are truly exceptions and there are always exceptions but relatively meaningless when we speak in generality, it the Americana athlete syndrome that really hurts our ability to compete effectively in World Cup.  Unfortunately, large percentage of American coaches believe in what you believe in - bigger, faster and stronger is necessary.

During my kid's recruiting days for college, we attended ID camps that the coaches didn't believe our kid was a forward because he was only 5-10" 160lbs, until he won headers, held the ball, played with his back to the goal and multiple goals in any given scrimmage they held during the camp.  The reason being he didn't fit the "stereotypical" forward - 6+ and 180 lbs+ that they are looking for.  Our kid was not given a second look from some of the coaches just because of his size.  He was, however, recruited by four schools that played possession-based soccer and is playing for one of them. 

The point is it would be over generalization to say size, speed and strength genetic lottery is the determining factor for athletic success.  Perhaps its half of it but there are other physical attributes that goes beyond simple notion mentioned.  It would be a mistake, in my mind, if one puts too much emphasis on just this half and underplay all the other attributes that make an athlete (e.g., technical skills, agility, intelligence/IQ, instinct and mental toughness and so on).

Since soccer is not a track and field event, where speed or distance jumped is measured against absolutes, one can take more variables into an account.


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## espola (Feb 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> You know, what you'er saying makes logical sense and like you, I used to be one of those people who believed bigger, faster and stronger is better.  Given if all things being equal, who wouldn't want someone faster, bigger and stronger?  Right?  I noticed not just this thread but you advocated the same points in the other thread too.
> 
> What I've seen and have learned is that not all things are equal and there is an optimal size for any given sports.  Soccer happens to require not just top speed and strength, but agility and quickness that comes with having compact motions and knowing how best to use angles.  Soccer players need to create separation somehow.  It can come from brut force strength and speed or from quickness and agility.  When someone is tall (say over 6'), the limbs and motions tend to be bigger and actual time to make changes in direction or any action takes longer than someone who is 5-8"~5-10".  (there are exception here too - just look at Cristiano or better yet bigger LeBron James)
> 
> ...


"The reason being he didn't fit the "stereotypical" forward - 6+ and 180 lbs+ that they are looking for."

??? I have seen lots of small forwards.


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## mirage (Feb 12, 2018)

espola said:


> "The reason being he didn't fit the "stereotypical" forward - 6+ and 180 lbs+ that they are looking for."
> 
> ??? I have seen lots of small forwards.


Go look at forwards in mens college teams, especially in the east coast.  Small forwards are not very often found because the backline tends to be 6-2~6-4 in many college teams.


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## Jace (Feb 12, 2018)

So i am very curious about the role of maturity and how it plays in all of this? 

I see lots of opinions... some seem knowledgeable some not. Some you can tell they have experience of their kid playing at the highest level... others repeating what they read on the interweb.

But this is a discussion about kids. You cannot have this discussion without the talking about the role of puberty. How significant that is.

In the the u littles you have some kids 11 mo older than others on same team. The effect of relative age and puberty at the youth leavel is huge.

Differences of maturity can be plus or minus several years. 

The power, strength, or speed you are seeing at young ages... now is that genetic superiorority... or are you failing to recognize the differences of maturity?


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## espola (Feb 12, 2018)

mirage said:


> Go look at forwards in mens college teams, especially in the east coast.  Small forwards are not very often found because the backline tends to be 6-2~6-4 in many college teams.


Most of the time, the ball is on the ground.


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## Jace (Feb 12, 2018)

I will follow up... everyone thinks their johnnie is the exception. 

Well im no different. My son plays at highest level... his touch and IQ stands out... as well as his intensity and determination. He plays a hard position... actually multiple... only one on his team. He has played different style all over the country.

Now, as great i think he is... he lacks  explosiveness... and at the younger ages... that can affect confidence. Sometimes i think he might struggle with that while on the ball.

But he effectively competes at highest level and stands out regardless. Now if i could put the maturity in him that i see that other players have... the power and explosiveness... well... then we have a national player imo.

You can look at the youngers faces, legs, movement... you can see the late vs early bloomers. And many early bloomers are ruling the roost right now. Some relying on that early maturity to their own detriment.  People mistake seeing this as the better athlete. This is false.

But with puberty its the roll of the dice...with late bloomers... just never know until you go thru it with your kid.

All you can do is enjoy the ride. Enjoy watching your kid play soccer. Believe in and support your kid as much as you can... and its a win win.


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## mirage (Feb 12, 2018)

When I read maturity, it means more behavioral and not necessarily physical development.  After your second post, its clear that you mean physical development as a child goes through puberty.

Some of the earlier comments, including my own, are more generic discussion in particular to the end state of the development - adults (or at least young adults) and not pre-puberty kids.

The only thing I can share with you, after having two boys playing from U6 all the way into college for the older and U16/'02 still playing club and seeing hundreds of games through puberty ages, is that when life happens to a child it changes many, many things.   Including attitude towards the game.

Sounds like your kid is not one of the early puberty kids (which for boys you start to notice the physical differences at U13 or so for the early ones).  By the time everyone hits 15~16 years old, over 90% of puberty is done and things will equal out back to their own abilities.  Some super fast kids become slower and some not to coordinated slow players have become more athletic.   And large significant number of kids will have stopped playing by the time they are in high school.

I don't believe any competent youth coach will mistake an early puberty kid's use of body advantage for a talent or a skill advantage.  Its just an advantage to win games for the coach.  Further, most parents, I believe, also recognizes the difference.

As you may know, as the kid grows into older ages, in particular to soccer, his position will require very specific domain knowledge about how to play that spot.  While its good to play multiple positions in younger years, to be effective and excel at the high level competition beyond U16+, will require tactical knowledge of the game with and without the ball specific to the position. 

On this forum, there was a time when the critical mass of discussion was on the older ages but the current critical mass appear to be focused on yougers and mostly girls game perspective.  So when there's an generic topic like this one, I'll contribute and share my experiences.


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## JJP (Mar 1, 2018)

mirage said:


> You know, what you'er saying makes logical sense and like you, I used to be one of those people who believed bigger, faster and stronger is better.  Given if all things being equal, who wouldn't want someone faster, bigger and stronger?  Right?  I noticed not just this thread but you advocated the same points in the other thread too.
> 
> Since soccer is not a track and field event, where speed or distance jumped is measured against absolutes, one can take more variables into an account.


This is a complicated topic, and I have posted specific responses in various threads, and it seems like people are generalizing those specific responses to conclude that I favor size and speed over skill.

That’s not what I believe.  In general, I think the priority for a pro level soccer player is first skill, then speed, and just enough size to not be knocked off the ball easily.  In soccer, size can be an advantage, you have more mass to push off defenders, but it can also be a disadvantage because you have to carry extra weight for 90 mins.

In youth soccer, say from u12-u14, I love the bigger players, because they are usually the ones who have hit puberty early and are typically physically thrashing the smaller, less mature players.  By the time the boys hit u15-16, they all have had a couple years of puberty and size differences matter a lot less.

So if you read my posts in a youth soccer thread, you might think JJP likes size, but I actually only care about size in youth soccer, I don’t care that much about size for adult soccer.  I think about a well built 5’9” player is big enough, I don’t see 6’ adult players running over well built 5’9” players.   What happens in youth soccer is you have 5’6” kids running over 5’ kids, so size has a big impact in the youth game.

I am, however, very much into speed.  No matter how skilled a player you are, if the defender you beat 1v1 can run back so you have to beat that defender a second time, then you are just too slow to be an attacking player.  Slow players create so many problems defensively, and are so limited offensively in terms of 1v1 or creating and exploiting space, that the skill level and soccer IQ has to be through the roof to make up for the lack of speed.


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## espola (Mar 1, 2018)

JJP said:


> This is a complicated topic, and I have posted specific responses in various threads, and it seems like people are generalizing those specific responses to conclude that I favor size and speed over skill.
> 
> That’s not what I believe.  In general, I think the priority for a pro level soccer player is first skill, then speed, and just enough size to not be knocked off the ball easily.  In soccer, size can be an advantage, you have more mass to push off defenders, but it can also be a disadvantage because you have to carry extra weight for 90 mins.
> 
> ...


The best thing that could happen to a player who hits puberty early is to play up a year or two.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Mar 1, 2018)

JJP said:


> This is a complicated topic, and I have posted specific responses in various threads, and it seems like people are generalizing those specific responses to conclude that I favor size and speed over skill.
> 
> That’s not what I believe.  In general, I think the priority for a pro level soccer player is first skill, then speed, and just enough size to not be knocked off the ball easily.  In soccer, size can be an advantage, you have more mass to push off defenders, but it can also be a disadvantage because you have to carry extra weight for 90 mins.
> 
> ...


It isn't a complicated topic.  Speed is measurable; skill isn't.  If your kid isn't fast you hold onto the hope that they are skilled enough to hang with faster players.  I have never heard of having too much speed (or strength) in sports. My kid is a goalie, and I still warn her that she better work on her speed and quickness.  Very few of us want to hear that our highly skilled slow footed kid isn't going to play at an elite level, but they aren't.


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## espola (Mar 1, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> It isn't a complicated topic.  Speed is measurable; skill isn't.  If your kid isn't fast you hold onto the hope that they are skilled enough to hang with faster players.  I have never heard of having too much speed (or strength) in sports. My kid is a goalie, and I still warn her that she better work on her speed and quickness.  Very few of us want to hear that our highly skilled slow footed kid isn't going to play at an elite level, but they aren't.


Skill can be measured.


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## JJP (Mar 1, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> It isn't a complicated topic.  Speed is measurable; skill isn't.  If your kid isn't fast you hold onto the hope that they are skilled enough to hang with faster players.  I have never heard of having too much speed (or strength) in sports. My kid is a goalie, and I still warn her that she better work on her speed and quickness.  Very few of us want to hear that our highly skilled slow footed kid isn't going to play at an elite level, but they aren't.


I don’t think it’s as simple as that.  At certain age groups size matters more.  Some kids are super fast but they can only run hard for 15 mins.  Some kids are super quick for the first 3 or 4 steps but then they slow down.  Some kids don’t have that burst, but as they stretch their legs out they cover tons of ground.

I do agree with you that if you want to play at the elite level you are going to need a good short term burst and the ability to sustain that speed for about 40 yards and do that repeatedly over 90 mins.


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## mirage (Mar 1, 2018)

JJP said:


> I am, however, very much into speed.  No matter how skilled a player you are, if the defender you beat 1v1 can run back so you have to beat that defender a second time, then you are just too slow to be an attacking player.  Slow players create so many problems defensively, and are so limited offensively in terms of 1v1 or creating and exploiting space, that the skill level and soccer IQ has to be through the roof to make up for the lack of speed.


With all due respect, this is exactly what's wrong with US soccer.  So focused on absolute values.  There is raw speed, and there is effective speed.  As your follow on post reinforces;



JJP said:


> I don’t think it’s as simple as that. At certain age groups size matters more. Some kids are super fast but they can only run hard for 15 mins. Some kids are super quick for the first 3 or 4 steps but then they slow down. Some kids don’t have that burst, but as they stretch their legs out they cover tons of ground.
> 
> I do agree with you that if you want to play at the elite level you are going to need a good short term burst and the ability to sustain that speed for about 40 yards and do that repeatedly over 90 mins.


40 yards!  Yikes.  Soccer is a series of small space games played on a large field.  Rarely is the case where a player has to sprint for 40 yards/meters on his own with a ball at his feet to attack or defend. If that occurs, then there is a serious tactical mistake and you get what you get.  If properly played, there is almost no need for a 40 yard sprint. Quick and short touches and accurate passes will move the ball round faster than any human can run.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that the ball moves faster than a player, no matter how fast he is.

Effective speed has to take into an account angles of player off the ball as well as movements prior to receiving the ball.  Soccer is not a track event where everyone starts at the same block and runs to the finish line.

Skilled and high IQ players alway benefits from more speed and strength - agree.  But they are enhancing and not enabling.  In other words, skill trumps speed every time.


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## jrcaesar (Mar 1, 2018)

mirage said:


> In other words, skill trumps speed every time.


The ability to disrupt (without fouling), double-team, or harass/foul faster players makes this true - assuming there's never a bad decision or defensive breakdown by the skilled players.


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## NickName (Mar 1, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> The ability to disrupt (without fouling), double-team, or harass/foul faster players makes this true - assuming there's never a bad decision or defensive breakdown by the skilled players.


Funny, my kid (center defender) said he was trying to foul kids all last weekend but the kids were too big. 

He’s joined me in the gym without complaint 3 times this week


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## JJP (Mar 2, 2018)

mirage said:


> 40 yards!  Yikes.  Soccer is a series of small space games played on a large field.  Rarely is the case where a player has to sprint for 40 yards/meters on his own with a ball at his feet to attack or defend. If that occurs, then there is a serious tactical mistake and you get what you get.  If properly played, there is almost no need for a 40 yard sprint. Quick and short touches and accurate passes will move the ball round faster than any human can run.


40 yard runs happen all the time.  There’s so many times a game a MF will pop out a long ball to the wings when the opposing D is playing a high press, causing forwards and opposing defenders to take off.  The Dutch training method is that a socccer player should be able to do a flat out sprint for 5 seconds (which is about 40 yards), at which point he should shoot or pass.



> I'm sure you'll agree with me that the ball moves faster than a player, no matter how fast he is.
> 
> Effective speed has to take into an account angles of player off the ball as well as movements prior to receiving the ball.  Soccer is not a track event where everyone starts at the same block and runs to the finish line.


You are ignoring the importance of D and winning loose balls.  A slow player in space is going to get beat like a drum.  And unless they are closest to a loose ball, slow players are going to lose the battle to collect loose balls.  Good D and winning loose balls is critical.  It’s why I believe, at the youth level, there is really no such thing as a good slow player.

Guys like Xavi and Pirlo function best on teams that have 1) the speed to create space for them, and 2) the skill to maintain possession, so that their liabilities as defenders and inability to win loose balls is not exposed.

Those 2 conditions never exist in US youth soccer.  Yes, the good slow player helps create some goals and makes some nice combinations, but if they are caught out of position on D they can’t get back and leave a giant hole on D.  And the latter happens A LOT more than the former.

My observation is that the good slow players and their parents are in reality just team killers. They think they are offensive players, and they make tons of “almost”goals with their skills and high soccer IQ, but they rarely finish off plays because faster defenders catch up to them and interfere with their shot.  But they are encouraged by their “almost” goals and keep pushing forward to contribute their good, slow skills to the offense.  The parents of the good, slow player are also encouraged and think their good, slow player is on the verge of breaking through and cheer him on to push up and “contribute” to the offense.  Of course, when the good slow player pushes up but doesn’t score (which is almost always), he can’t get back in time to play D, and a quick goal kick or good chip unleashes a counter where the opposing striker runs through the central hole where the good, slow player should have been.  (The good, slow player is almost always a central player.) The good, slow players invariably remember the 2 or 3 beautiful, quality goals they scored, and forget the 15 to 20 counter goals blasting throughout the central hole where they should have been, because it’s not the fault of the good, slow player.  He was busy contributing his good, slow skills to the offense, and it’s the responsibility of the fast players to run back and cover for the good, slow player.

After several games of this bullshit, you end up with a team where the good, slow player pushes up at every opportunity, tons of almost goals, no actual goals, the fast players are confused whether they should play offense or defense, whether they should guard their man or the good slow player’s man, and which one of the fast players is supposed to guard the good, slow player’s man.

I’m telling you, stop overthinking this, looking at angles and all this other crap.  That kind of stuff only matters if you have speed to take advantage of the opportunities you see.  There is only one type of good slow player.  A player who always keeps his shape and connection with teammates, never leaves a hole in the D, passes the ball as soon as he can.  You will not find him in youth US soccer and it’s just about impossible to develop a good slow player in the US for the reasons I mentioned above.


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## Gokicksomegrass (Mar 2, 2018)

JJP said:


> 40 yard runs happen all the time.  There’s so many times a game a MF will pop out a long ball to the wings when the opposing D is playing a high press, causing forwards and opposing defenders to take off.  The Dutch training method is that a socccer player should be able to do a flat out sprint for 5 seconds (which is about 40 yards), at which point he should shoot or pass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the boot the ball over the top to the fast forward. Classic. 
Didn't know that the player and parent can chose which position to play or get the minutes to play them. 
Getting the opportunity to make dozens of SOG means they play lotta minutes. 
So, did you share this insight with the coach and let them know the truth that fast players with two left feet are the way for the win?


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## JJP (Mar 2, 2018)

Gokicksomegrass said:


> Ah yes, the boot the ball over the top to the fast forward. Classic.
> Didn't know that the player and parent can chose which position to play or get the minutes to play them.
> Getting the opportunity to make dozens of SOG means they play lotta minutes.
> So, did you share this insight with the coach and let them know the truth that fast players with two left feet are the way for the win?


No.

If you read my post, it was the opposing team that booted it into the space abandoned by our good slow player.  Why would I talk to the other teams coach?

And nobody has to teach a coach how to beat the out of position, good slow player.  There’s so many out of position good slow players at every level of soccer everyone knows how to beat them.

I’m sure I will get a bunch of butt hurt snide remarks like yours about boot ball blah blah development blah blah my good slow player son is playing real soccer blah blah, the fast players playing boot ball will never make it next level blah blah.

The best way  to get rid of boot ball is dump the good slow player, because that’s the type of player that boot ball was designed to exploit.


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## mirage (Mar 2, 2018)

JJP said:


> ........The Dutch training method is that a socccer player should be able to do a flat out sprint for 5 seconds (which is about 40 yards), at which point he should shoot or pass.


Its one of things and others too.  Your scenario does not happen for 90 minutes as you've originally stated.  It happens few times in a game and, really, its chase the ball.  If the MF knows that the D is faster than F/W, then MF will not place the ball there. There are other options that a smart MF players make.



JJP said:


> You are ignoring the importance of D and winning loose balls.  A slow player in space is going to get beat like a drum.  And unless they are closest to a loose ball, slow players are going to lose the battle to collect loose balls.  Good D and winning loose balls is critical.  It’s why I believe, at the youth level, there is really no such thing as a good slow player.
> 
> Guys like Xavi and Pirlo function best on teams that have 1) the speed to create space for them, and 2) the skill to maintain possession, so that their liabilities as defenders and inability to win loose balls is not exposed.


Not at all. Players should be positioned such that they have an advantage when without the ball.  I do find it odd that you bring up Xavi and Pirlo while discussing youth soccer.  I will note that no one is talking about exceptionally slow or a team made up full of slow players.  On any given team, there are different speeds.

Your clearly entitled to have your own belief but I disagree your generalization about all slow youth players.  I have seen quite a few games watching my kid play from U12 to U18 over the years.  I say U12 on because prior to that there is no soccer IQ to speak of, for the most part.  Also at U-little to about U12, speed dominates because there is nothing else.  Which brings me to the next point.....



JJP said:


> My observation is that the good slow players and their parents are in reality just team killers. They think they are offensive players, and they make tons of “almost”goals with their skills and high soccer IQ, but they rarely finish off plays because faster defenders catch up to them and interfere with their shot.  But they are encouraged by their “almost” goals.......
> 
> After several games of this bullshit, you end up with a team where the good, slow player pushes up at every opportunity, tons of almost goals, no actual goals, the fast players are confused whether they should play offense or defense, whether they should guard their man or the good slow player’s man, and which one of the fast players is supposed to guard the good, slow player’s man.


You really have a very one sided, skewed view of the game.  For clarification, I don't have a slow kid.  My kid is playing in college as a Forward and has led scoring in every team he's ever played on from U6 to U18, including in DA.  That said, parents like you who blame the slow kid and have opinions you've listed, simply tells me that you thoughts are predetermined and are not open to discovery.  Try keeping an open mind and see what really happens objectively. 

Sounds like your kid is D, given the detail you've provided in the examples.  Most D's I've seen are not very technical or soccer IQ savvy, and is a bull in a china shop at the youth level.  Make sense that your perspective is shaped the way it is.



JJP said:


> I’m telling you, stop overthinking this, looking at angles and all this other crap...


That's just it isn't it.  Not over thinking it.  Angles do matter as well as off the ball movements.  Its just how the game is played at the higher level.

I'm sure, like me, you've tire this subject enough so thanks for the banter and we agree to disagree.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Mar 2, 2018)

For the love of everything holy, this isn't (shouldn't be a)  a debate.  You cannot play at an elite level if you are slow - sorry but it is the truth; no matter how many times you mark my comment(s) as dumb.  Yes, you also have to possess: skills, soccer IQ, conditioning, etc..., etc... If your kid doesn't have speed - get working on it; all of those highly motivated fast players that don't have the same skill level are coming.


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## JJP (Mar 2, 2018)

mirage said:


> You really have a very one sided, skewed view of the game.  For clarification, I don't have a slow kid.  My kid is playing in college as a Forward and has led scoring in every team he's ever played on from U6 to U18, including in DA.  That said, parents like you who blame the slow kid and have opinions you've listed, simply tells me that you thoughts are predetermined and are not open to discovery.  Try keeping an open mind and see what really happens objectively.


Lol.  My observations on the out of position good slow player are based on what actually happens in real games.   Not sure what you are watching.



> Sounds like your kid is D, given the detail you've provided in the examples.  Most D's I've seen are not very technical or soccer IQ savvy, and is a bull in a china shop at the youth level.  Make sense that your perspective is shaped the way it is.


I don’t understand why you would deduce my kid would have to play D for my observations to make sense.  FYI, my kid plays 10 and 7/11, so I don’t understand what you even mean.  Not sure what kind of D you watch but the D on most academy teams are actually very skilled, they actually handle the ball more than any other position because the academy teams emphasize building out the back.

You don’t have to be a genius or have a son playing a certain position to know that when the good slow player 4, 5 or 6 are deeper than the 10 or 8 on a regular basis, and the other team is blasting thru the hole in the D, something is really wrong.

Congrats on your boy being a successful DI player.  It’s a great accomplishment and you must be proud of him.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 2, 2018)

I haven't read this whole thread, but when y'all are saying "slow," I wonder if there is an agreed upon definition of what a "slow player" is, since the term is purely relative.  I also don't know if anyone here really has a good definition of "elite."  Elite for youth soccer?  Elite for college?  Elite for professional?

Personally, I always thought of myself as a "slow" player because when my HS team ran sprints, I was always in the bottom third.  I had suddenly grown big feet and long legs that didn't mesh with the stride I'd developed as a youngster.  But I made up for it with awareness, instincts, IQ and hustle.  I was a defender and only once in 3 years of starting varsity did I ever let a faster player get behind me for a scoring chance (and I promptly fouled him).  I had "game" speed.  Now, that being said, I'd never classify myself as "elite," either.  But I was solid and I played with and against some "elite" athletes who went on to play D1 sports.  I had two team mates who ran sub 4.5 40's.  I could read the game better, compete with them, and hold my own despite my below average speed.  I don't disagree that having speed is better than not having it.  I'm just glad I didn't have some of you as my coach.  I'd never have seen the field.


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## JJP (Mar 2, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Personally, I always thought of myself as a "slow" player because when my HS team ran sprints, I was always in the bottom third.  I had suddenly grown big feet and *long legs that didn't mesh with the stride I'd developed as a youngster.*


You may have thought of yourself as slow because you went through an awkward stage with your stride not matching your long legs, but you weren’t slow.  You just needed some time to hit your stride and then I bet you were pretty fast.  That kind of speed, slow start but fast finish, works fine for a long defender.  Use your body length and long arms to slow down the opposing attacker, then get your long legs in stride to keep up with him.


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## *GOBEARGO* (Mar 3, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> It isn't a complicated topic.  Speed is measurable; skill isn't.  If your kid isn't fast you hold onto the hope that they are skilled enough to hang with faster players.  I have never heard of having too much speed (or strength) in sports. My kid is a goalie, and I still warn her that she better work on her speed and quickness.  Very few of us want to hear that our highly skilled slow footed kid isn't going to play at an elite level, but they aren't.



The ball has and always will outrun any player.


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## ChargerPride (Mar 3, 2018)

Just throwing in my two cents here, 
Everyone is different and can't judge all books by their cover. While speed kills, just ask Al Davis. Without the IQ, you just have a fast player. Reality is that it is hard to just define one as slow and then shelve them in a group. Because soccer really is complex, the faster you think of the situation and either react or anticipate can have a huge difference in outcome regardless of speed. My DD isn't the biggest, the fastest or the strongest, yet what makes her so uniquely special is her ball skills and her high soccer IQ. Which allow her to anticipate and it doesn't hurt that she is very aggressive, always trying to win those 50/50's. In the end if you can have the ball at your feet regardless of the play then isn't that one of the biggest advantages in soccer. Possessing the ball. Don't get me wrong. I constantly remind my DD that the faster she can move the better the result will be along with her current advantages.


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## RichMan (Mar 3, 2018)

ChargerPride said:


> Just throwing in my two cents here,
> Everyone is different and can't judge all books by their cover. While speed kills, just ask Al Davis. Without the IQ, you just have a fast player. Reality is that it is hard to just define one as slow and then shelve them in a group. Because soccer really is complex, the faster you think of the situation and either react or anticipate can have a huge difference in outcome regardless of speed. My DD isn't the biggest, the fastest or the strongest, yet what makes her so uniquely special is her ball skills and her high soccer IQ. Which allow her to anticipate and it doesn't hurt that she is very aggressive, always trying to win those 50/50's. In the end if you can have the ball at your feet regardless of the play then isn't that one of the biggest advantages in soccer. Possessing the ball. Don't get me wrong. I constantly remind my DD that the faster she can move the better the result will be along with her current advantages.


Well said!   I'm referring to that speed often as well.  My lil one's always been big, fast and aggressive.  Buuuuut, when her body started changing, her speed wasn't the same and her skill needed to start making up the difference.  But focusing on skills caused quite a regression in her overall aggression with all of the over-thinking and second-guessing.   

However, with her beginning to understand her body and the speed starting to come back, it's a beautiful thing to watch when they work in tandem.  Things just don't come as easy as they once did and she gotta work for it.  That's where soccer IQ is vital.


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## ChargerPride (Mar 4, 2018)

So I am adding a little more after going through the thread. 
When your DD moves from the small field to the big fields is usually the best indicator of how they will fare. However, their development is dependent on how they are trained. Each club has a mission and vision that identifies their style, that separates them from the pack. Some clubs have been around longer and have a reputation. In my case the most important thing was, the coach. I was able to watch my DD play against his teams and as we moved around trying to find the best fit. We finally made the move in which we thought it was the best for her overall development. A style and training that would enhance her current abilities and challenge her to be a better player. Once the skills were taught, they moved on to incorporating those skills and techniques into a team vision of possession, just like you see the top European countries play. It is not easy by no means and takes alot of time and patience to learn, getting all players and parents to buy into such a cerebral approach. There are times when the bigger, faster, stronger team just seemed like too big an obstacle, girls seemed hesitant and a little afraid. How to defend such Elite speed. It seems like most love to play the long ball with hopes of taking as many shots and hoping for the defense to make a mistake. However as the system worked and the team became more unified. Eventually those bigger, faster, stronger team were not as scary. Reason was that once the possession/IQ along with skill, kicked in, the opposing team was starting to chase. Pretty soon that was all they were doing, was chasing all the passes. Funny that no matter how fast you are, a good passes is almost always faster. Possession, requires skillful and smart players, and while speed is king. Sometimes being just fast enough with skill and IQ is more than enough. Did I mention, after running around alot, players tend to get tired. Some of the best soccer was always in the second half.

I did read about heart, and I agree to a point. However my biggest thing about heart, is that it will only get you so far. If you ever watched the movie Rudy, you will know what I mean. I remember a coach who left me speechless. My DD had a team mate who was quick, one might even say fast for her size, but would never give up. I agree she had heart. Yet she lacked skill, IQ, and just didn't have the atheticism for the game. The coach said that if he could have 11 girls like her, that he would never lose. Most parents and myself were left speechless. I didn't say anything to the coach, but I would take 11 girls like my DD and crush his heart girls. Their is a reason why there are different levels of soccer. Players with god given abilities like size, speed, natural atheticism, will always be in high demand, and yet without the skill and IQ to back it up. You will just have an athlete. An elite athlete, but just an athlete. While the ratio may differ from player to player, I feel that once you have all 5, that's when you have struck gold. All those attributes can be improved, some are harder than others, but can still be improved. Add heart as a bonus. You may have scored a future Messi.

Ultimately, a player is defined how they perform on the pitch/field. Their desire to want to improve can only be done by them. Wanting to practice, hone their skills. Repeat and continue to improve. I hope all our DD's continue to play this amazing game, that I feel is one of the best sports for conditioning and good health.


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## Buddhabman (Mar 4, 2018)

Just watching the NFL combine today,WR, TE,  DL, LB drills has me wondering if coaches are not working enough on getting our kids to move to ball at full speed. Running to a ball that is being passed to them. To take  a ball coming to them at speed, receive it and move with speed. We need to make sure our kids can receive and maneuver and pass a ball out at full speed.


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## push_up (Mar 4, 2018)

A plethora of good posts.  The last one is dumb.


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## Lambchop (Mar 5, 2018)

toucan said:


> I agree that receiving and playing at speed is crucial, and one of the most reliable indicators of development as a player.  You cannot play at speed without a solid technical foundation.  Teams that receive and play at speed are always highly competitive.  And yes, we can learn a lot from the NFL, especially in the way they structure practices.  NFL teams have a coach for every positional group, such as linebacker and receiver coaches.  We could do more to follow their example in training specialty skills.


Some DA clubs actually have specialty coaches at their practices and games, while some clubs do the same old same old, one coach.


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## Buddhabman (Mar 5, 2018)

toucan said:


> I agree that receiving and playing at speed is crucial, and one of the most reliable indicators of development as a player.  You cannot play at speed without a solid technical foundation.  Teams that receive and play at speed are always highly competitive.  And yes, we can learn a lot from the NFL, especially in the way they structure practices.  NFL teams have a coach for every positional group, such as linebacker and receiver coaches.  We could do more to follow their example in training specialty skills.


Thank you for fleshing out what I meant to continue on. Got distracted and couldn't finish my original thought.  The idea is that our top flight 1 kids by the age of 12,13,14 should have the athleticism, technical competence to receive a ball,  manipulate to one side or another, from one foot to another, dribble, pass and shoot at speed. Not half speed like in drill practice but at minimum 3/4 speed  up to full sprint.    If your kid is good at that, whether they are big or small it is very advantageous.  You can see those special kids that take a ball on the move, regardless of ball speed, adjust their body to receive and then to either make the pass or take the ball at the dribble at full steam.  

I agree also that we can take some coaching and practice methods from both NFL and NBA teams. Soccer tends to be free flowing in a sense, but the great teams have some very well drilled in patterns of play. 

Getting  to original question, "Speed vs Skill, when do you see a difference". My son is an 03 playing on flight 1 team. We have kids that start that range from 5'2" to 6'0" 105-110lbs to 160lbs. If the kid is small but skillful, quick/fast and heart of a lion, then size  is not much of a factor. If the small kid is not particularly brave going against larger kids and becomes hesitant then you may have issues scrambling for 1st, 2nd lose balls, 50/50 balls. That can be troublesome depending on your kids position. Not so bad if he is a forward, not good as a midfielder, dangerous as a defender.   You have to get their first, big or small.  

I have gotten a chance to watch a few more high school soccer games this year,  Freshman, JV and Varsity.  Size and speed is a big difference maker at Varsity level. Have seen a few games with very technical kids in the middle, club players that are playing up as freshman because of their skill, get manhandled by some bigger players. Lots of long ball in the games i have watched, if your defenders don't have wheels and bit size to muscle kids away from ball, you are doomed.


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## JJP (Mar 5, 2018)

toucan said:


> Skill is the least important factor to me at these ages.  I find it very easy to teach kids how to handle a ball and play a possession-style game.  We probably do about 20,000 passing repetitions per player per year in practice, as well as Coerver-style drilling, and we have live scrimmages at nearly every practice.  On top of that, our teams play in about 50 games and scrimmages per year.  So the skill develops pretty quickly.
> 
> Conclusion:  There is no single factor when selecting players.  But there are factors that indicate that a player is a "no-go" for recruitment.  The most common for me is when a kid is slow.


You sound like all the coaches who recruited my first boy.  No skill at all but he literally ran over every kid and had the ball all the time before losing it and then hacking down whoever took it from him.  The coaches would all say to him, “You have to play the ball, not the player.”  And he’d say “What kind of stupid rule is that?”  They’d all want him and I’d say, “Why? He’s gonna get a red within 5 minutes.”  And they’d all say “I can teach him how to play, I can’t coach his speed and aggression?”

But he wasn’t that easy to coach, and neither were a bunch of the other kids on his team.  In contrast the younger all Mexican teams played like junior pros.

Do you ever coach boys?  I don’t have daughters but it seems to me that the girls were just a lot more coachable.  Getting boys to do repetitive Coerver drills was not easy, or follow instructions is just about impossible.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 5, 2018)

toucan said:


> It's neither "speed," nor "IQ," nor "skill" which makes a player great, much less a team.  It's a suite of talents which make a player talented, and a diversity of talents which make a team great.
> 
> I coach girls on the small-side fields, which means the youngest ages.  All these teams are built from scratch, starting with zero players.  Which compels me to spend most of my weekends scouting for talent and recruiting players.  Having zero players to start with is always a challenge, but at least it allows me the freedom to choose what type of player to look for.
> 
> ...


I appreciate a coaches' insight on what their thought process is like in selecting players.  Very enlightening.  This is almost exactly how my daughter's first club coach picked players, although speed was slightly higher.  Not to put down this approach, but it does reflect your purpose:  win games.  I don't think you can avoid this in club soccer, because that's how you keep your job as a coach.  I'd do the same if coaching youth soccer was putting food on my table. But I'm not convinced it translates to great results at the older levels.  Almost 100% of the dominant players at my kid's u10 age group are nowhere to be seen today at u17.  I'm no expert, but that's just what I've seen.  And that club is a club that always preached "development."  What I learned is that the priority for coaches is actually: 1. winning, 2.recruiting and 3.moving to a "better" club (ECNL, DA, etc.).  Trying to improve their existing players' skills was way down on that list. 

To the OP's original question, for girls I saw the drop-off of the "dominant" players gradually each year from U12-U15.   A couple of them stayed at that high level, but they were kids with average size to begin with and exceptional speed who just kept working.  None of the really big dominant kids that I knew at the Ulittle ages are anywhere near the top teams now.  My daughter is a keeper, so size has always been a big deal to the coaches, and she was deemed too small for the top teams at U12, but is now the tallest kid on both her HS and club team.  In her case, speed/quickness was her strength in Ulittles and few cared, but now that she's gotten tall and long, coaches are excited.  That changed at about U15 for her.


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## Gokicksomegrass (Mar 6, 2018)

toucan said:


> I don't deny recruiting players to help "win games."  While winning is not the "most important" objective when training youth soccer, it better be high on a coach's list.  Winning serves development for all of a coach's players.  A winning team usually has highly focused players, who pass their attitude onto others, making everyone better.  Winning teams attract talented players, who will make practices more challenging for all.  Winning teams are able to play in higher league flights, and compete in higher tournament brackets, resulting in better weekly competition for all players.  There is no downside to having a team that regularly wins.  Winning may not be the "only" thing, but it's a whole lot better than losing.
> 
> I deny the wisdom of recruiting players who cannot help a team win.  Sure, today's "slow kid" with a great attitude and high "soccer IQ" might mature into a great athlete.  But the actual likelihood of that happening is low.  And putting that kid on a team where he or she will be near the bottom of the depth chart might be good for the slow player, but it detracts from the team's overall skill level, and may affect the team's performance.  In my opinion - and there are many who would dispute it - a coach's first priority is to train the team to be the best it can be.  Adding players who are below the team's level of competitiveness detracts from that objective.  That slow kid who may be great one day should play at a lower level, until he blossoms.


THIS is the reason why a parent should always focus on the development of your kid, not
how much hardware your kid can hang up on the wall. "Winning team" means just towing the company line, like a good
company person should do. Clubs are just "non-profit" companies who need to make payroll and pay for DoC's new MB AMG G65.
(Ya, the black shiny one. Who could that be, folks wonder???) Keep that in mind and all will be known.

Many kids of parents who were loyal, bought stupid, expensive crap during the auction, and kissed ass were kicked to the
curb by another better kid developed outside of the club aka "recruiting".  
A kid with developed skills, IQ, talent, and drive can be a free agent and can move freely about the cabin. 
Find the right coach, be the advocate and protector of your child until they can fight for themselves. Good luck.

Yeah, I feel you, coach. Need to keep steaks in the frig. But that ain't my problem.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 6, 2018)

Gokicksomegrass said:


> THIS is the reason why a parent should always focus on the development of your kid, not
> how much hardware your kid can hang up on the wall. "Winning team" means just towing the company line, like a good
> company person should do. Clubs are just "non-profit" companies who need to make payroll and pay for DoC's new MB AMG G65.
> (Ya, the black shiny one. Who could that be, folks wonder???) Keep that in mind and all will be known.
> ...


I think I know this club and that AMG driver.  Beware clubs that run auctions and fundraisers (mandatory) when the DoC makes north of 150 or 200 large per year. 

@toucan , Even though your post was quoted, I don't think these comments were directed at you.  You seem like an honest straight shooter.  But there's plenty of clubs out there who use coaches like yourself to line the trophy case so they can line their wallets on empty promises to inexperienced club soccer parents.


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## Juribe (Mar 6, 2018)

Would this kid be considered slow and possessing high "soccer iq"? Can't picture him winning any track events with his size.


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## JJP (Mar 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> @toucan , Even though your post was quoted, *I don't think these comments were directed at you.*  You seem like an honest straight shooter.  But there's plenty of clubs out there who use coaches like yourself to line the trophy case so they can line their wallets on empty promises to inexperienced club soccer parents.


I’m pretty sure they were directed at him since Gokicksomegrass’s response to toucan’s post started with a capitalized THIS.



Gokicksomegrass said:


> *THIS* is the reason why a parent should always focus on the development of your kid, not how much hardware your kid can hang up on the wall. "Winning team" means just towing the company line, like a good company person should do. Clubs are just "non-profit" companies who need to make payroll and pay for DoC's new MB AMG G65.
> (Ya, the black shiny one. Who could that be, folks wonder???) Keep that in mind and all will be known.
> 
> Many kids of parents who were loyal, bought stupid, expensive crap during the auction, and kissed ass were kicked to the curb by another better kid developed outside of the club aka "recruiting".


And this seems like a backhanded compliment.



> Yeah, I feel you, coach. *Need to keep steaks in the frig.* But that ain't my problem.


Not sure why you’re pissed at toucan.  He is building and recruiting winning teams that focus on ball control and possession through Coerver style drills.  Sounds pretty good to me.  I’d love to get coaching like that for free, but I’m willing to pay for it because I want my boys outside and playing instead of inside and gaming.


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## jrcaesar (Mar 7, 2018)

The Board: "Someone please be honest: What are coaches looking for?"
Toucan: "Here are the 4 things all coaches look for, but won't tell you. If your kid doesn't have those 4 traits, there are plenty of Flight 2 teams for them. Also, winning is nice."
The Board: "How dare you!"


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## MakeAPlay (Mar 7, 2018)

toucan said:


> I have always coached girls teams, so maybe my process wouldn't work so well with a boy's team.  My girls are almost universally attentive, hard working, and anxious to please.  They love Coerver drills.  And I rarely have trouble teaching one to play a possession-style game.  True, some do it better than others, but for the most part all give a really great effort.


The last true possession girls club team I saw was Deanza Force 98/99 and maybe the Surf 98/99 team.  I would love to see another one.  What age group and level are you coaching?  My player is off until June and I have some time to kill.  What team are you talking about and where will they next be playing.


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## Gokicksomegrass (Mar 8, 2018)

toucan said:


> That was an interesting post directed at me, though snarky and wholly uninformed.  Taking the points one-by-one:
> 
> Building "winning teams" is not about getting hardware.  It's about striving for excellence.  Not that there is anything wrong with winning a couple of tournaments here and there.
> What "company line" are you talking about?  That comment is senseless.
> ...


Nah, it's cool, bro. Just get all triggered when a coach who coaches ulittle girls 08/07, what 8,9, 10 year old prepubescent girls,
and talk about slow little girls are no good, recruiting some more faster little girls, and creating a "winning team". Sorry about that.


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## ChargerPride (Mar 8, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> The last true possession girls club team I saw was Deanza Force 98/99 and maybe the Surf 98/99 team.  I would love to see another one.  What age group and level are you coaching?  My player is off until June and I have some time to kill.  What team are you talking about and where will they next be playing.


Since you brought it up, I have been fortunate that my DD plays for Marquez Rebels SC '01 Elite is as close to a true possession style team. It also helps that Ryan has the '00 Elite team as well. As a result next years team at the '01 Elite should be quite a team, with about 5 girls dropping to play their age and the already heavily talented current roster with is made of some of the premier '02 girls. It should be quite a year. 
The following link is a National League game, although the competition was not the best, you can see the way they possess and pass.


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## MakeAPlay (Mar 13, 2018)

toucan said:


> I teach "possession-style" soccer; where the primary means of ball movement is foot-to-foot passing.  Usually that means 3-6 passes to get the ball into the attacking third.  My youngers are pretty good at it for their age, but we aren't anywhere near the level of the two older teams you speak of.  I know we struggle to put passes together against fast, athletic teams who really come at us hard.  But if you put us against a weaker team and we get a 3 or 4 goal lead, then we often play for "pure possession," and can often string 10-15 passes together at a time.  That is pretty good for G2007s and G2008s.  We still have far to go.
> 
> I think you may be baiting me about wanting to watch my teams play, and no doubt you will see much to be improved upon if you do, but I have already PM'd you with our current schedules.


No bait.  I am serious.  I like to hear that a coach is teaching possession.  It can be done but wins and losses can't be important early on.  That DeAnza 98/99 team used to lose with they were the were ULittles but around U13/14 they started to be a force and the rest is history...


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## MakeAPlay (Mar 13, 2018)

ChargerPride said:


> Since you brought it up, I have been fortunate that my DD plays for Marquez Rebels SC '01 Elite is as close to a true possession style team. It also helps that Ryan has the '00 Elite team as well. As a result next years team at the '01 Elite should be quite a team, with about 5 girls dropping to play their age and the already heavily talented current roster with is made of some of the premier '02 girls. It should be quite a year.
> The following link is a National League game, although the competition was not the best, you can see the way they possess and pass.


I live close enough that I can see this team play live.  Can you PM me a schedule link please?  Thank you in advance.


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## 46n2 (Mar 13, 2018)

ChargerPride said:


> Since you brought it up, I have been fortunate that my DD plays for Marquez Rebels SC '01 Elite is as close to a true possession style team. It also helps that Ryan has the '00 Elite team as well. As a result next years team at the '01 Elite should be quite a team, with about 5 girls dropping to play their age and the already heavily talented current roster with is made of some of the premier '02 girls. It should be quite a year.
> The following link is a National League game, although the competition was not the best, you can see the way they possess and pass.


#12 @ the 5 min mark! She is not messing around, bravo.


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## espola (Mar 13, 2018)

46n2 said:


> #12 @ the 5 min mark! She is not messing around, bravo.


She should have been cautioned for that.


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## clubfees (Mar 13, 2018)

Juribe said:


> Would this kid be considered slow and possessing high "soccer iq"? Can't picture him winning any track events with his size.


https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/77038/mexico-brings-in-12-year-old-california-phenom-for.html


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