# Club not letting you play state/national cup.



## Pebbs99 (Feb 20, 2018)

The club where my daughter plays on sent an email that because they ended up spending more on fields are requesting $30 from every player.  In our team, there are also a few players that still owe club fees.  The club said that they would pull our team out of state cup.  Can they do that? even though we already paid for state cup? the draw comes out in 2 days.


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## espola (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> The club where my daughter plays on sent an email that because they ended up spending more on fields are requesting $30 from every player.  In our team, there are also a few players that still owe club fees.  The club said that they would pull our team out of state cup.  Can they do that? even though we already paid for state cup? the draw comes out in 2 days.


What does your contract say?


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## timbuck (Feb 21, 2018)

If the schedule is already out and your team is on it- then your club has already paid the entry fee. If they withdraw now, there is a fine the club has to pay. 
Seems they are trying to use this to make those that haven’t yet paid kick in their money.  
Lame that the club waits until the last minute to ask for it.


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## coachrefparent (Feb 21, 2018)

I  don't  see why they can't, but there's  always a counter argument from a legal standpoint I suppose. I agree with above posters that it's shoddy management to deal with this after the original draw date. It's also weak for players not to pay their dues either.

What club?


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## TangoCity (Feb 21, 2018)

If someone is behind on their dues then they should pull the cards of those players.

The part about pulling the team out of State Cup is pretty mean spirited.  Like someone else said... "what does your contract say"


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## Nefutous (Feb 21, 2018)

Yes they can pull your team out of State/National Cup at any time.  Generally I believe it is the coach thou not the club that can do it.  However, if your coach does not agree to pull your team, they can replace him with another coach that will pull the team.

Every club I have seen requires all club dues prior to league and pulls the players that are not paid up at that time.  To spring it on the team now seems really unfair.  If they had done it earlier your team could have elected not to play State Cup or found replacement players.  Now it is too late since everyone is Cup tied.  And as far as the $30, look at your contract but I highly doubt they can charge you that since it if for fields. Good luck.


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## MWN (Feb 21, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> If someone is behind on their dues then they should pull the cards of those players.


The potential problem is if that sends the club into "disqualified" status because of roster continuity.  At the 11v11 ages, you must have at least 9 players that played league.  Quite frankly, $30 is not that bad for the experience, sucks but it sucks more to miss State Cup.


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## TangoCity (Feb 21, 2018)

MWN said:


> The potential problem is if that sends the club into "disqualified" status because of roster continuity.  At the 11v11 ages, you must have at least 9 players that played league.  Quite frankly, $30 is not that bad for the experience, sucks but it sucks more to miss State Cup.


They probably shouldn't pull cards over $30 but the original poster said that...



> there are also a few players that still owe club fees


and those players very likely 'should' have their card(s) pulled.  If you don't have enough players then tough.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

As others mentioned, you wont get a draw if you havent paid the fees. 
As far as knowing who has paid and hasnt paid dues, no one should know that except for coach and club admin. Sometimes managers know, but it isnt their job to know that info either. A lot of petty folks throw the info out without knowing why someone might be behind. Some managers tend to overstep their job duties. Heard some folks even putting it out on Teamsnap type apps. Ridiculous.
Pulling cards over dues is something clubs do after cup season - especially when a kid is jumping ship. 

Money matters can be cleared after the season, properly, via notices. Then appropriately collected via collectors if needed. Often there can be legitimate reasons they are not cleared or there could be an agreement in place the coach himself doesnt even know about. 

Asking for more money for the tournament might have to be done to pay for costs, but that only shows how inept the person/people creating the budget plan the club is/are- if there was ever a proper budget plan created to begin with. A properly run club will always take into account a percentage of money that will not be collected from players, possible overages, possible need for more coaching fees and will set tournament budget per team. To rely on every single penny would mean you have the best team of bill collectors, people who never run into hardship, live in a perfect world or over your head when it comes to organizational finance. Would be great if all clubs were transparent with budgets - most tax exempt clubs will even have you dig deep to find out where money is spent.

To threaten to pull a team is very Napoleonesque. It means the club has no problem punishing the kids who have nothing to do with the issues. Issues that can be solved after the tournament. Parents at the very least might have to pony up for the ref fees to make it happen though.


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## Pebbs99 (Feb 21, 2018)

espola said:


> What does your contract say?


There's a part of the contract that says " If the expenses of the team, including field fees, coach's fees, etc. exceed the contract amount, the player will be liable for the shared additional expenses and will receive an additional invoice at the close of the regular season."

There is also a part that says that if membership fees are not paid, the player will not be allowed to participate in practice, games, or tournaments.

This is a low-income team, and some players were not even given a contract(they just paid for the $25 card fee)  yet, the club is saying they have to pay the low-income contract(even if they didn't sign anything).


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## TangoCity (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> There's a part of the contract that says " If the expenses of the team, including field fees, coach's fees, etc. exceed the contract amount, the player will be liable for the shared additional expenses and will receive an additional invoice at the close of the regular season."
> 
> There is also a part that says that if membership fees are not paid, the player will not be allowed to participate in practice, games, or tournaments.
> 
> This is a low-income team, and some players were not even given a contract(they just paid for the $25 card fee)  yet, the club is saying they have to pay the low-income contract(even if they didn't sign anything).


Sounds like a big mess.  Take it up with Cal South, maybe they can mediate a solution.  One problem with not paying dues or owing money is that when you switch clubs the original club will put a lein on your player card with Cal South and you might not be able to register as a player with a different club until your financial obligations are taken care of.  Good luck.


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## espola (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> There's a part of the contract that says " If the expenses of the team, including field fees, coach's fees, etc. exceed the contract amount, the player will be liable for the shared additional expenses and will receive an additional invoice at the close of the regular season."
> 
> There is also a part that says that if membership fees are not paid, the player will not be allowed to participate in practice, games, or tournaments.
> 
> This is a low-income team, and some players were not even given a contract(they just paid for the $25 card fee)  yet, the club is saying they have to pay the low-income contract(even if they didn't sign anything).


It's hard to enforce a contract without a signature.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> There's a part of the contract that says " If the expenses of the team, including field fees, coach's fees, etc. exceed the contract amount, the player will be liable for the shared additional expenses and will receive an additional invoice at the close of the regular season."
> 
> There is also a part that says that if membership fees are not paid, the player will not be allowed to participate in practice, games, or tournaments.
> 
> This is a low-income team, and some players were not even given a contract(they just paid for the $25 card fee)  yet, the club is saying they have to pay the low-income contract(even if they didn't sign anything).


this makes situation much clearer. 
if the kids played season, even if they didnt sign anything, but knew they had to pay. should pay. thats just respect and common sense.

seems underfunded team/league so parents have to pony up. $30 bucks isnt much, even at low income level to play tournament and pay refs. from admin/coaches standpoint they might be looking at the cup fees as small amount to pay versus time/effort to collect money and keep coaching kids who havent put in - but again, this is on the organizational skills of the admin. collecting from parents is a skill you have to have. many coaches will pawn the task of collecting club fees on the manager (if the team has one) - relaying the costs of the tournament, overages, ref fees can be tackled by the coach and manager together. In this case its $30 bucks, so should be simple to explain. Better than the alternative.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

espola said:


> It's hard to enforce a contract without a signature.


yes, legally. but id tack that issue on a moral ground. most folks dont like their morality/ethics questioned. otherwise have to chalk that up to being better organized. why a lot of small clubs die. not just about ordering unis and getting a patch of grass to practice at.


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## timbuck (Feb 21, 2018)

is this a youngers team playing in National Cup?  Because I think that all of Mayors, Governors and President's youngers have all had at least their 1st round games by now.  And National Cup is set to start next week.  If your team is on the schedule, then your team has already paid to enter.


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## Pebbs99 (Feb 21, 2018)

timbuck said:


> is this a youngers team playing in National Cup?  Because I think that all of Mayors, Governors and President's youngers have all had at least their 1st round games by now.  And National Cup is set to start next week.  If your team is on the schedule, then your team has already paid to enter.


This is an older team.  The draw is supposed to be tomorrow.  But we already paid for State Cup.  Our team manager paid for it and we got accepted.


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## espola (Feb 21, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> yes, legally. but id tack that issue on a moral ground. most folks dont like their morality/ethics questioned. otherwise have to chalk that up to being better organized. why a lot of small clubs die. not just about ordering unis and getting a patch of grass to practice at.


Without evidence of a signed contract, is there any way to know if those families knew of the possibility of later  payments?  Were they told "Just pay $25 registration fee", and later asked for more?


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## Pebbs99 (Feb 21, 2018)

espola said:


> Without evidence of a signed contract, is there any way to know if those families knew of the possibility of later  payments?  Were they told "Just pay $25 registration fee", and later asked for more?


From what I know, at one point we needed players, so the club said to get whatever players we could get. So the players were only told to pay the $25 for the card, and for uniforms. that's it. No mention of contract or needing to pay later.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

espola said:


> Without evidence of a signed contract, is there any way to know if those families knew of the possibility of later  payments?  Were they told "Just pay $25 registration fee", and later asked for more?


looks like that was it. thats on the club. looks like poor organization


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> This is an older team.  The draw is supposed to be tomorrow.  But we already paid for State Cup.  Our team manager paid for it and we got accepted.


So getting the manager reimbursed would be a good thing to do. Always tell managers to have the club treasurer submit the payments - whether its covered by club or not. A good club will send the check out and manager/team reimburses the club. Covers the manager/team and club can handle any disputes over money with a tournament organizer.


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## Pebbs99 (Feb 21, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> So getting the manager reimbursed would be a good thing to do. Always tell managers to have the club treasurer submit the payments - whether its covered by club or not. A good club will send the check out and manager/team reimburses the club. Covers the manager/team and club can handle any disputes over money with a tournament organizer.


Our Club Treasurer doesn't even have the experience of "Accounting" so imagine how messed up it is.   She also said that she wouldn't send any payments because that is not her job. That the teams are responsible for paying the tournaments.


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## RedCard (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> From what I know, at one point we needed players, so the club said to get whatever players we could get. So the players were only told to pay the $25 for the card, and for uniforms. that's it. No mention of contract or needing to pay later.


That's a lot cheaper than AYSO......No way that club can stay afloat with $25 per player (understanding some players pay more).


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 21, 2018)

Pebbs99 said:


> Our Club Treasurer doesn't even have the experience of "Accounting" so imagine how messed up it is.   She also said that she wouldn't send any payments because that is not her job. That the teams are responsible for paying the tournaments.


yeah i figured it would be something like that. would be half-way nuts or not care about money to take the mgr job of that team - or someone who didnt know what they were getting into. if that is how the club is run, time to go find another club. 

funny, her job is just to count the money coming in? sounds like my old job's account, aka the boss' wife, "my job is to take checks to the bank".


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## espola (Feb 22, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> yeah i figured it would be something like that. would be half-way nuts or not care about money to take the mgr job of that team - or someone who didnt know what they were getting into. if that is how the club is run, time to go find another club.
> 
> funny, her job is just to count the money coming in? sounds like my old job's account, aka the boss' wife, "my job is to take checks to the bank".


When I was a team manager, I kept all financial matters closed among myself, the coach, and interested board members.  The only time I had to act the heavy was when the board treasurer sent me a list of players whose payments were in arrears late in league season (everyone soon paid up since the board threatened to pull cards before State Cup).  

Other managers of teams on which my kids played handled things in totally different ways.  On one team, the coach and manager paid "scholarships" out of their own pockets for a few players whose parents had no money and were good on the field (and I helped out with travel expenses).  On another, the manager sent out a monthly spreadsheet showing for every player how much their parents had paid, and who was behind, to everyone.


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## coachrefparent (Feb 22, 2018)

espola said:


> When I was a team manager, I kept all financial matters closed among myself, the coach, and interested board members.  The only time I had to act the heavy was when the board treasurer sent me a list of players whose payments were in arrears late in league season (everyone soon paid up since the board threatened to pull cards before State Cup).
> 
> Other managers of teams on which my kids played handled things in totally different ways.  On one team, the coach and manager paid "scholarships" out of their own pockets for a few players whose parents had no money and were good on the field (and I helped out with travel expenses).  On another, the manager sent out a monthly spreadsheet showing for every player how much their parents had paid, and who was behind, to everyone.


Once upon a time taking care of your obligations and not putting others in a bind due to your failure to do so was considered being responsible.

Now making people do so is considered shaming, bullying or some other new fangled term to relieve them of their need to do so, because we feel bad for them.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 22, 2018)

espola said:


> When I was a team manager, I kept all financial matters closed among myself, the coach, and interested board members.  The only time I had to act the heavy was when the board treasurer sent me a list of players whose payments were in arrears late in league season (everyone soon paid up since the board threatened to pull cards before State Cup).
> 
> Other managers of teams on which my kids played handled things in totally different ways.  On one team, the coach and manager paid "scholarships" out of their own pockets for a few players whose parents had no money and were good on the field (and I helped out with travel expenses).  On another, the manager sent out a monthly spreadsheet showing for every player how much their parents had paid, and who was behind, to everyone.


In the past some parents have expressed sending out who pays/doesn't but it depends on what the structure of the club is. Hell, TeamSnap has this function, so it must be common practice on sports teams. In the past arguments have arisen due to parents telling their kids and the kids mouthing off at practice.  Kids should just show up and play - not worry about cards, fees, birth certs or whatever is needed to participate. We've had parents confront other parents and have it escalate to physical confrontations. Every club I've dealt with has scholarship kids, most as you mentioned are the ones who are very good, which helps the club. So the club is okay with this but want a manager/coach to hammer on a kid who's parents got behind on payments? A community based club or one adhering to nonprofit guidelines wouldn't allow for this - since scholarships are not to be performance based (for the most part). Most clubs welcome managers pushing to collect fees, since they dont want to chase them. IMO, not the managers obligation - unless the managers kid is playing for free and this is something the club gets you to do in exchange. Not worth the headache, free or not free.

From my experience being late on payments usually happens due to things such as: loss of main income, medical bills, sudden adoptions, legal matters, death and other unforeseen issues. When parents communicate the issue, solutions are usually found - but usually months down the road. In the meantime the info is out and people jump to conclusions or just dont care. Most folks, ones ive dealt with, are proud and dont ask for help - thus it takes months to get to a solution. So we have run into the issues i mentioned before and things have escalated over common life problems. Some folks on the board seem to live fairy tale lives and never needed help. (not directed at you espola, looks like youve tried to help your kids teammates)

Some parents have issues with the "good kids" being on scholarship as well. City/County/State Govs have real big issue with this - donations come with guidelines and sponsorship should be based on need, regardless of talent. Not to do so could get things like fields pulled. Obviously kids who have talent get benefit quicker, but not at the expense of someone else in need. This is a reason why some clubs have stopped being community based. They dont want to any guidelines or restrictions. Some clubs that are nonprofit status dont abide by the legal "spirit" of what nonprofit is suppose to entail, but thats another long winded topic.

 Where I am at now,the policy is to do things professionally and legally. Managers are not privy to the financials of the individual teams - at least not suppose to be. Managers only send out initial emails with links to sign and backend of the site does the rest. No need to threaten or punish by pulling cards - actually a bit petty. Instead, people who havent paid or havent setup a payment plan are sent a bill to be paid. If the bill is not paid within the indicated time, it might be sent to collections. The child also will not be able to get a card on another team if the club reports outstanding dues to Cal South. 

As mentioned most clubs hammer the dues to before the cup because it is important to the child/parent & coach- used as leverage. These tactics can create bigger issues. All that said, very dependent on the club, club size and if the club is community based or how they op as a nonprofit. Aspects if a club is for-profit or not-for-profit are important... at least they should be. Some clubs can also face push-back from sponsors, city/county gov (if working with govs) & donors if certain methods of payment collection is used - like collection agency or divulging unpaid dues publicly. 

sorry for the long-winded post. true if you sign up pay. honor obligations, but not always cut and dry.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 22, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Once upon a time taking care of your obligations and not putting others in a bind due to your failure to do so was considered being responsible.
> 
> Now making people do so is considered shaming, bullying or some other new fangled term to relieve them of their need to do so, because we feel bad for them.


if it were only about that. not taking into account other possible issues. if  you owe pay, dont think anyone argues against that. heaven forbid someone runs into a life problem and dont want your issues aired out to a soccer team.


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## espola (Feb 22, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> In the past some parents have expressed sending out who pays/doesn't but it depends on what the structure of the club is. Hell, TeamSnap has this function, so it must be common practice on sports teams. In the past arguments have arisen due to parents telling their kids and the kids mouthing off at practice.  Kids should just show up and play - not worry about cards, fees, birth certs or whatever is needed to participate. We've had parents confront other parents and have it escalate to physical confrontations. Every club I've dealt with has scholarship kids, most as you mentioned are the ones who are very good, which helps the club. So the club is okay with this but want a manager/coach to hammer on a kid who's parents got behind on payments? A community based club or one adhering to nonprofit guidelines wouldn't allow for this - since scholarships are not to be performance based (for the most part). Most clubs welcome managers pushing to collect fees, since they dont want to chase them. IMO, not the managers obligation - unless the managers kid is playing for free and this is something the club gets you to do in exchange. Not worth the headache, free or not free.
> 
> From my experience being late on payments usually happens due to things such as: loss of main income, medical bills, sudden adoptions, legal matters, death and other unforeseen issues. When parents communicate the issue, solutions are usually found - but usually months down the road. In the meantime the info is out and people jump to conclusions or just dont care. Most folks, ones ive dealt with, are proud and dont ask for help - thus it takes months to get to a solution. So we have run into the issues i mentioned before and things have escalated over common life problems. Some folks on the board seem to live fairy tale lives and never needed help. (not directed at you espola, looks like youve tried to help your kids teammates)
> 
> ...


When my sons joined the "tell-all" club, they came in as transfers from a younger club team playing up for National Cup, since the team they were on was not going to play NC.  I didn't realize the situation until I got the first manager email with complete spreadsheet attached.  We were expected to pay a pro-rated portion of the coach's fees, plus our proper share of the NC expenses, so everyone else's share was reduced accordingly, and showing everyone that made us more welcome.


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## Not_that_Serious (Feb 22, 2018)

espola said:


> When my sons joined the "tell-all" club, they came in as transfers from a younger club team playing up for National Cup, since the team they were on was not going to play NC.  I didn't realize the situation until I got the first manager email with complete spreadsheet attached.  We were expected to pay a pro-rated portion of the coach's fees, plus our proper share of the NC expenses, so everyone else's share was reduced accordingly, and showing everyone that made us more welcome.


where my friend's children play he gets a full spreadsheet as a manager. some parents, as your teams have done, have paid the dues of other kids. so their fees would show up like the other parents who are paying on time or show they have a zero balance. he told me they would send it out monthly. knowing one of the other parents on the team i asked her how that worked for her, she said "well...but".  the but was the team could figure out who was on scholarship since they had a zero balance from the start. some parents are quick to pay the entire balance at once, but most parents are savvy enough to know who couldnt pay a lump sum. i suggested he modify the process a bit. hah

i will add most people who use the debt/payment function on the sports apps say it helps. then again most are using it to track a few hundred bucks at a time for tournaments and other expenses. start talking a couple grand and people's emotions start getting bothered.


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## Josep (Feb 23, 2018)

I don’t think I’ve seen a name of the club or The team.  This is the kind of thing that should be exposed so unsuspecting parents don’t sign up for this scam next year.


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## fotos4u2 (Feb 23, 2018)

Josep said:


> I don’t think I’ve seen a name of the club or The team.  This is the kind of thing that should be exposed so unsuspecting parents don’t sign up for this scam next year.


Curious what scam that would be?  The scam that families chose not to pay their bills and now the club has finally decided to put their foot down?  And fwiw I'm aware that some families may not be able to afford to pay, but it's also just as likely they COULD pay but choose not to.  Why pay to play when you can pay for free? We've known quite a few families who've been offered scholarships for various teams if they'd just produce financials showing need--the parents refused so the child was removed from the roster.


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## Josep (Feb 23, 2018)

You work out a solution to not shaft the paying families.  Yes. People can be jerks and not pay dues.  Ban them from playing.  Bust up the team and keep the paying half with others or a B team.   

There’s always a solution if you want to create one.  Or you can let a few bad apples ruin everything for the team.


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