# Protect the players



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

I’m sure we have all seen some amazing refs that do well to control the game and keep it clean. We have also seen some (especially at the younger levels) that simply will not call anything.

In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response? 

Keep playing and pray that nobody gets injured?

Pull the team off the field and refuse to play?


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

Teach the players how to deal with it and take advantage.

Sports is about learning to deal with challenges and obstacles

Stress the progress not the outcome,  teach perspective, winning/losing is just a small part of the overall picture.  Forget about  whining, complaining, or arguing and just have the players focus on the games and their skills.


----------



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Teach the players how to deal with it and take advantage.
> 
> Sports is about learning to deal with challenges and obstacles
> 
> Stress the progress not the outcome,  teach perspective, winning/losing is just a small part of the overall picture.  Forget about  whining, complaining, or arguing and just have the players focus on the games and their skills.


I understand what you’re saying and that is definitely true to a certain extent. But how do you teach a player to handle a punch in the back or a high stud tackle from behind? Hard to focus on skills at that point.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I understand what you’re saying and that is definitely true to a certain extent. But how do you teach a player to handle a punch in the back or a high stud tackle from behind? Hard to focus on skills at that point.


Dust yourself off,  get up, continue playing, get some magic spray or ice if you have to, go back in make a difference, show your strength.    Lots of different ways for payback just have to choose how and when.  Players can figure it out.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I’m sure we have all seen some amazing refs that do well to control the game and keep it clean. We have also seen some (especially at the younger levels) that simply will not call anything.
> 
> In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response?
> 
> ...


If the other coach is willing to help, the two of you have the option of pulling individual players.

If the other coach is unwilling to help, I’d say yes.  If it isn’t safe, pull the team and explain why you’re doing it.

You’re under no obligation to let kids get injured.   If you feel the need to “show your strength”, go join an adult league.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I understand what you’re saying and that is definitely true to a certain extent. But how do you teach a player to handle a punch in the back or a high stud tackle from behind? Hard to focus on skills at that point.


2017 El Clasico:

Early first half:  took a violent elbow to the face.


92nd minute:  scored the winning goal on the last kick of the game.


----------



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

Messi>CR7 said:


> 2017 El Clasico:
> 
> Early first half:  took a violent elbow to the face.
> 
> 92nd minute:  scored the winning goal on the last kick of the game.


Not the same thing. Comparing adults playing as a career professionally and referees who would be dropped to lower divisions for consistent mistakes…

…to children and weekend refs.

Also I’m not talking about accidental fouls here and there. I’m talking about borderline violence and intentional malice that is left unchecked.


----------



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If the other coach is willing to help, the two of you have the option of pulling individual players.
> 
> If the other coach is unwilling to help, I’d say yes.  If it isn’t safe, pull the team and explain why you’re doing it.
> 
> You’re under no obligation to let kids get injured.   If you feel the need to “show your strength”, go join an adult league.


I agree with this. Has anyone seen a team or coach actually do something like that?


----------



## Emma (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I agree with this. Has anyone seen a team or coach actually do something like that?


Yes.  Coach pulled my daughter's team.  Bad ref allowed very young kids to get violent and coach pulls entire team while his team is leading.  Ref was reported.  One of those refs that smile at the children and want to be their grandparent rather than the game ref.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I agree with this. Has anyone seen a team or coach actually do something like that?


Yes coaches will pull players if they think there out of control, need a few moments to reflect, etc.  Getting the opposing coach(s) to cooperate is a bit more difficult.

What your describing is just part of the game, players at every level or age groups some unintentionally clumsy and others ranging from "professional" fouls to more reckless challenges. 

Teachable moments, walking off pulling a entire team is like the fight or flight debate.   If you're teaching we're not playing because is too physical out there, that is what it is and you can bet the players remember that next time. 

The enemy of resilience in excellence is excuses. Excuses may start for a good reason but they're like armor they're trying to shield people from pain. The problem is that you build up so much armor that you can't function optimally. Excuses protect you but you can't live a full life with them because they will always holding you back.


----------



## baldref (Sep 24, 2021)

bossman said:


> I agree with this. Has anyone seen a team or coach actually do something like that?


Yes. I have seen similar a couple of times, as a father of a player not as a ref. Younger ages. Document it. Get the referee's name, opposing coaches name, and report to the gaming authority. Worst case nothing comes of it and your team loses a meaningless game. But no players are hurt.


----------



## baldref (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Yes coaches will pull players if they think there out of control, need a few moments to reflect, etc.  Getting the opposing coach(s) to cooperate is a bit more difficult.
> 
> What your describing is just part of the game, players at every level or age groups some unintentionally clumsy and others ranging from "professional" fouls to more reckless challenges.
> 
> ...


Too many metaphors, but I think I disagree........


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

baldref said:


> Too many metaphors, but I think I disagree........


Disagree with what? 

If you have suggestions for the OP please share.


----------



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

Emma said:


> Yes.  Coach pulled my daughter's team.  Bad ref allowed very young kids to get violent and coach pulls entire team while his team is leading.  Ref was reported.  One of those refs that smile at the children and want to be their grandparent rather than the game ref.


I applaud that coach who puts children’s well-being before their own ego.


----------



## baldref (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Disagree with what?
> 
> If you have suggestions for the OP please share.


If we're talking about youngers, 14 and under say, then they really have no business sticking it out and being tough for a "learning experience" when there's an obvious violent element in the game, and the referee either chooses to ignore it, or is not capapble of handling it. 

Again, I'm not sure, but I think you were advocating that. 

In an older game, maybe, depending on the level of play. A higher level game would "hopefully" have referees assigned that could handle such things.


----------



## bossman (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Yes coaches will pull players if they think there out of control, need a few moments to reflect, etc.  Getting the opposing coach(s) to cooperate is a bit more difficult.
> 
> What your describing is just part of the game, players at every level or age groups some unintentionally clumsy and others ranging from "professional" fouls to more reckless challenges.
> 
> ...


Agree with regards to physicality. What I’m taking about is beyond that. Not even attempting to play the game and targeting certain players without any referee intervention.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

baldref said:


> If we're talking about youngers, 14 and under say, then they really have no business sticking it out and being tough for a "learning experience" when there's an obvious violent element in the game, and the referee either chooses to ignore it, or is not capapble of handling it.
> 
> Again, I'm not sure, but I think you were advocating that.
> 
> In an older game, maybe, depending on the level of play. A higher level game would "hopefully" have referees assigned that could handle such things.


Nope not advocating that, not sure how you came up with that notion.  OP didn't indicate which ages  or violence..."scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed..."

For violence absolutely document and take appropriate action. 

My 3 players have been involved in well over a thousands games from ulittle through college, you name it what tournament or playoffs, or cup and they have never had a game called off or walked out because of physical play or violence.   

I''ve referee close to 300 or so games but none in the last 4 years and I've seen some violence from players, spectators, and parents. Thrown some out, called some short, and had some hearings but as a parent i always let my players or there coaches decided what's appropriate and didn't feel the need to interject or talk to anybody but my player(s) after.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Nope not advocating that, not sure how you came up with that notion.  OP didn't indicate which ages  or violence..."scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed..."
> 
> For violence absolutely document and take appropriate action.
> 
> ...


What’s the physical build of your players?


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 24, 2021)

MacDre said:


> What’s the physical build of your players?


All 3 players on the smaller lighter side until high school ages.   

Average size while in high school starting sophomore year for 2 out of 3 of them. 3rd player was smallest on his teams until freshman year in high school, grew a bunch and was above average by his senior year.   

In college about average for all three.   Junior daughter 5.6  120ish,. Freshman Son: 5.9 150ish.  Graduation student 5.10 155.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Sep 24, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Dust yourself off,  get up, continue playing, get some magic spray or ice if you have to, go back in make a difference, show your strength.    Lots of different ways for payback just have to choose how and when.  Players can figure it out.


Vigilantes figure it out, too but that's not what I want out of soccer. Women have boxing and MMA now. No need to have it in the game of soccer. IMO, Women's soccer needs a "revolution" like basketball had to distance itself from the Detroit Pistons of Mahorn and Laimbeer and hockey had to distance itself from Roller Derby without the acting and again when they actually started calling penalties when players didn't "play the puck". Run up behind someone receiving the ball and bang them from behind, you get a yellow. Grab someone's arm, shoulder, or jersey that got past you with the ball, you get a yellow. The men's game would also be better off doing the same but I don't see it ever happening.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 25, 2021)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Vigilantes figure it out, too but that's not what I want out of soccer. Women have boxing and MMA now. No need to have it in the game of soccer. IMO, Women's soccer needs a "revolution" like basketball had to distance itself from the Detroit Pistons of Mahorn and Laimbeer and hockey had to distance itself from Roller Derby without the acting and again when they actually started calling penalties when players didn't "play the puck". Run up behind someone receiving the ball and bang them from behind, you get a yellow. Grab someone's arm, shoulder, or jersey that got past you with the ball, you get a yellow. The men's game would also be better off doing the same but I don't see it ever happening.


Soccer is a physical game, you either learn how to deal with or make comparison to 80s pro basketball teams.

You can encounter situations with big players, more aggressive ones, nasty players, etc doesn't matter what size you are just need to learn how to play vs all types.   Have a good first touch, dribbling and passing abilities, good balance, mental strength, etc.

USA MNT play vs rough or physical  teams in concacf all the time. Some of the players when they first get on those teams and not used to the hard nose over-aggressive style of opponents and they don't play well at first.  

Have to recognize some teams will foul more than others, referees can miss calls and you can't change that no matter how much you want to take the physicality out of the game.

What you can do is focus on what you can control such as your performance and how you might react to fouls or non calls.  The key is to focus on your strengths and not retaliate.  When you maintain your compsure, you can frustrate your opponent and gain an advantage.

It's easy to lose your focus when playing against a team that will foul, hold, trip,  push during games.  When you focus on the so-called "dirty" plays, the rough team, the non-calls, etc you are just taking the focus on playing the game and become more focused on what the other team is doing instead. 

Losing you focus normally means you lose sight of the opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net, move the ball up, create opportunities for passes, etc players can be less aggressive going for the ball to avoid contract, 2nd guessing.  You can make more mistakes when you're focused on the physicality of your opponents.

Pulisic is a good example of a smaller player with good mental strength.  He's fouled a lot, teams try to frustrating and knock him off his game.  Instead of retaliating what does he do?  he scores goals he creates chances, he stays focused, he executes his game plan he trusts his ability.  

We need more pulisic type players and to teach those players to maintain focus and deal with all types of opponents.  Rough ones are not going away anytime soon so deal with them and get on with it.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 25, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Soccer is a physical game, you either learn how to deal with or make comparison to 80s pro basketball teams.
> 
> You can encounter situations with big players, more aggressive ones, nasty players, etc doesn't matter what size you are just need to learn how to play vs all types.   Have a good first touch, dribbling and passing abilities, good balance, mental strength, etc.
> 
> ...


I don’t have a problem with rough play.  You gotta bring ass to get ass and may bite off more than you can chew.  My objection is to all of the flagrant fouls.


----------



## crush (Sep 25, 2021)

Most of my dd injuries the last year or so have been by hackers who got beat and then push from behind.  I've never seen anything like it since 1974 Roller Derby season.  Those girls were tough SOBs.  Soccer needs a big revolution to change the way the girls play and the way they seek revenge when they get beat.  Two touch and go must be preached and taught with all the triangle triplex plays.  This rugby and roller soccer is for the birds. Boo!!!!


----------



## bossman (Sep 25, 2021)

Just wanted to re-iterate. Professional soccer referees are not the same as youth girls soccer referees. At higher levels there are consequences for not doing a proper job. They will not remain in the higher leagues with consistent bad performances. At the youth level there are many “play on” refs that will simply not call anything. I guess that’s just the pecking order and it’s hit or miss.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Sep 25, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Soccer is a physical game, you either learn how to deal with or make comparison to 80s pro basketball teams.
> 
> You can encounter situations with big players, more aggressive ones, nasty players, etc doesn't matter what size you are just need to learn how to play vs all types.   Have a good first touch, dribbling and passing abilities, good balance, mental strength, etc.
> 
> ...


We are coming at this from two different directions @lafalafa. You have stayed true to the initial question posted in terms of "what should I do when this happens". I agree with everything you wrote before this post as well as this post in terms of "dealing with it". The "focus" you describe can also be used in many situations in life. My perspective is more about enjoying watching a game even if I don't know anyone playing. My suggestions are directed at rule changes to the game - not refs adjusting their calls with the existing rules. Although, consistently enforcing the existing rules would be nice. A year or so ago I was wondering why women's college basketball was widely broadcast on national TV while women's college soccer was not. Then I watched the women's "March madness". Damn, that was fun to watch - a lot fun. I can't say I regularly feel that way about watching women's college soccer. I just don't see the "beautiful game" very often. So, yeah, let's change a few rules (and consistently enforce the existing rules) so every advantage doesn't go to the defense. I notice that men's and women's lacrosse have a separate set of rules. Besides, after the world outside the US took the game of basketball and changed some rules, we owe them one and in the process can create a more entertaining women's game.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 25, 2021)

MacDre said:


> I don’t have a problem with rough play.  You gotta bring ass to get ass and may bite off more than you can chew.  My objection is to all of the flagrant fouls.


Yeah understandable can be difficult to watch being targeted consistently.   Hack a Shaq can be a tactic just need to find a counter or ways to take advantage of that.  

The most expensive transfer in the men's premier League this year was the most "fouled" player in the Premier League per game in the 2020/21 season.  

Gets no less than 4.5 free-kicks per game, 110 fouls against, helps he's fast, can dribble, and finishes in the final third but you can say he earned  a chunk of the $140 million transfer fee in part from getting fouled. 



kickingandscreaming said:


> We are coming at this from two different directions @lafalafa. You have stayed true to the initial question posted in terms of "what should I do when this happens". I agree with everything you wrote before this post as well as this post in terms of "dealing with it". The "focus" you describe can also be used in many situations in life. My perspective is more about enjoying watching a game even if I don't know anyone playing. My suggestions are directed at rule changes to the game - not refs adjusting their calls with the existing rules. Although, consistently enforcing the existing rules would be nice. A year or so ago I was wondering why women's college basketball was widely broadcast on national TV while women's college soccer was not. Then I watched the women's "March madness". Damn, that was fun to watch - a lot fun. I can't say I regularly feel that way about watching women's college soccer. I just don't see the "beautiful game" very often. So, yeah, let's change a few rules (and consistently enforce the existing rules) so every advantage doesn't go to the defense. I notice that men's and women's lacrosse have a separate set of rules. Besides, after the world outside the US took the game of basketball and changed some rules, we owe them one and in the process can create a more entertaining women's game.


Ah I see, interesting ideas about changes, what change(s) in particular to what rule's?

Are you suggesting more stringent rules regarding physical play or fouls, accumulation or what exactly? 

More entertaining for some fans is just more offense, passing, scoring,  higher scores.  1-1 games don't appear on paper to be exciting but they could be but maybe not to the causal fan.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Sep 26, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Ah I see, interesting ideas about changes, what change(s) in particular to what rule's?
> 
> Are you suggesting more stringent rules regarding physical play or fouls, accumulation or what exactly?
> 
> More entertaining for some fans is just more offense, passing, scoring,  higher scores.  1-1 games don't appear on paper to be exciting but they could be but maybe not to the causal fan.


Yes, I mentioned the primary rules I'd be interested in seeing enforced in my previous post. Run up behind someone receiving the ball and bang them from behind, you get a yellow. Grab someone's arm, shoulder, or jersey, or trip someone that got past you with the ball, you get a yellow.

Of course, the scenarios @bossman describes are a dereliction of duty for the referee. It doesn't matter what rules are used if a ref isn't going to enforce them.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 26, 2021)

Another comment from Frank Schoon relevant to our discussion:

2 comments about "USMNT: Tyler Adams joins Christian Pulisic and Gio Reyna on sidelines".
frank schoon, September 26, 2021 at 9:31 a.m.
Amazing isn't it for all three to l play under Turbo conditions under TURBO type coaches .....DUH.

We all were hoping that our boys going to Europe would learn to play more of a sophisticated style, getting away from our own Turbo style,  but unfortunately guess where they all end up? Germany ,turbo land and the most Turbo team of Turbo land, DORTMUNT,GERMANY (POOR REYNA and CP)

Then we have our own turbo coach coming from another turbo country USA ( jesse Marsche) coaching in Germany. Poor Tyler!!! Look at CP going to England ,hoping that he was saved from Turbo, but ends up in England, not much  better, but at least he's coached by Frank Lampard, who actually knows and played the game at a high level. That is great, you think , but all of sudden guess who takes over, Thomas Tuchel ,'Mister Turbo' himself, CP's old coach at Dortmunt.

Guys ,this is a mess, sorry but I think this is no coincidence here why these are hurt....and interesting enough all have 'muscle' problems...hmmm

frank schoon replied, September 26, 2021 at 9:43 a.m.
I have to admit at Ajax some of the foreing players , of which I remember was a Portugese player, who stated he gets headache because he had to constantly think the game, meaning he had to think a step ahead or two, how should the be passed, to which foot, to which is the better option,etc.,......As a result he was always so tired after the game or practice.

At least these new players at Ajax have to only take a tylenol for their headache for having to use their mind more, as compared to those Turbo types who need to sit out. This particular player stated that he had think so much more about the game itself...The reason is that at Ajax, they believe it is better for the ball to do the running rather than the player and it is also a faster way of playing for you can't outrun the ball.....

One can only IMAGINE if Ajax trained all our soccer our American players how many Tylenols tablets would have to be taken...for American players have no clue about thinking the game ;for they first have to learn to wipe the foam off their mouths due to all the extra running.. You can also imagine the American coaches having to get use thinking the game for obviously if and when they begin to try and think the game, immediately we'll see an improvement in our players....


----------



## bossman (Sep 26, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Another comment from Frank Schoon relevant to our discussion:
> 
> 2 comments about "USMNT: Tyler Adams joins Christian Pulisic and Gio Reyna on sidelines".
> frank schoon, September 26, 2021 at 9:31 a.m.
> ...


Not sure how this relates to this thread. Did you mean to start your own thread?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Sep 26, 2021)

bossman said:


> In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response?


----------



## MacDre (Sep 26, 2021)

bossman said:


> Not sure how this relates to this thread. Did you mean to start your own thread?


Isn’t this thread about protecting players?  The quotes I posted reference how our USMNT stars are currently injured from playing dumb turbo soccer.  I think the style of play is a substantial factor that is oftentimes overlooked in how we can protect players.  I think refs are kind of limited in what they can control as long as we are playing dumb turbo soccer.  I think someone upthread distinguished pro level refs from club level refs; but our injured USMNT players show that good refs can’t protect us if we continue to play dumb turbo soccer.

So, playing smart positional soccer where the ball does the running is another way to protect players in addition to addressing lax refereeing.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 26, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Isn’t this thread about protecting players?  The quotes I posted reference how our USMNT stars are currently injured from playing dumb turbo soccer.  I think the style of play is a substantial factor that is oftentimes overlooked in how we can protect players.  I think refs are kind of limited in what they can control as long as we are playing dumb turbo soccer.  I think someone upthread distinguished pro level refs from club level refs; but our injured USMNT players show that good refs can’t protect us if we continue to play dumb turbo soccer.
> 
> So, playing smart positional soccer where the ball does the running is another way to protect players in addition to addressing lax refereeing.


I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.

It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics.  Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.
> 
> It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics.  Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.


I get it.  My point is that it takes all hands on deck to protect players.  If the game is turbo which is physical and aggressive there’s only so much a ref can do.  In other words, do we have unrealistic expectations about what referees can do during a turbo game?


----------



## espola (Sep 27, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.
> 
> It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics.  Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.


It's direct and possession, not vs.


----------



## Eagle33 (Sep 27, 2021)

It would help to know the age group.....regardless, what I'm noticing lately, and I hope it's not becoming a pattern, is indifference from referees. Maybe because they are doing too many games and just tired or maybe because they are way over their head for the level of the games, again due to referee shortage. Either way it's not good. 
From my knowledge, and correct me if wrong, every ref is rated inside referee association for the level of the game he/she can do. So highest rated refs will get highest level games and so on. So if you are talking about youngers game, you are shit out of luck, sorry.
As far as pulling your team off the field, it's a coaches choice, but many leagues will have consequences not in your favor for doing this.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 27, 2021)

Eagle33 said:


> It would help to know the age group.....regardless, what I'm noticing lately, and I hope it's not becoming a pattern, is indifference from referees. Maybe because they are doing too many games and just tired or maybe because they are way over their head for the level of the games, again due to referee shortage. Either way it's not good.
> From my knowledge, and correct me if wrong, every ref is rated inside referee association for the level of the game he/she can do. So highest rated refs will get highest level games and so on. So if you are talking about youngers game, you are shit out of luck, sorry.
> As far as pulling your team off the field, it's a coaches choice, but many leagues will have consequences not in your favor for doing this.


The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.  

What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions. 

It kind of makes sense.  If I didn’t know how to be indifferent, I wouldn’t be a ref for long, because the sideline comments would get to me.

But it’s also a recipe for teaching people to be a bad referee and not to care about it.


----------



## baldref (Sep 27, 2021)

dad4 said:


> The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.
> 
> What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions.
> 
> ...


There are lots of levels to referee training. Not all is great, but the higher you progress the more talk there is about foul recognition and when to issue cards, and game management. Depends a lot on which cal south administrator you have leading the lessons.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 27, 2021)

dad4 said:


> The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.
> 
> What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions.
> 
> ...


When did you take your training?

The Referee Instructors we had in person have been very thorough and we had a lot on foul recognition talks, examples, etc and very little on crowd or spectator management.   This was years ago so maybe times have changed.

When I think back about the title of this thread:. "protect the players"....heard this said several times at younger games but it was normally just from vocal parents who would parrot this phrase like it was suppose to trigger something like....do you want a cracker Polly...

Anyway do coaches really say this in today's game or is it one of those favorite parent saying still?


----------



## dad4 (Sep 27, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> When did you take your training?
> 
> The Referee Instructors we had in person have been very thorough and we had a lot on foul recognition talks, examples, etc and very little on crowd or spectator management.   This was years ago so maybe times have changed.
> 
> ...


I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend.  Of course they wanted it to trigger a response.  The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.

“Polly wants a cracker.”???   More than a little insulting.   Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games.   That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot?  They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI.  You and I don’t.


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 27, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend.  Of course they wanted it to trigger a response.  The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.
> 
> “Polly wants a cracker.”???   More than a little insulting.   Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games.   That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot?  They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI.  You and I don’t.


Really lighten up, nobody said that or wants to see anybody injured.  Never have mocked a parent or spectator in my life. 

Is just a catch phase that obviously means different things to different people and your putting your own spin on a it.    So you know that phase is meant to trigger a responses. Guess I triggered yours and you played the "injury" card right away, typical.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 27, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend.  Of course they wanted it to trigger a response.  The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.
> 
> “Polly wants a cracker.”???   More than a little insulting.   Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games.   That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot?  They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI.  You and I don’t.


I had the same experience this weekend.  There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up.  Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them).  As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level.  They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate.  And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.


----------



## GoldenGate (Sep 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I had the same experience this weekend.  There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.
> 
> The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up.  Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them).  As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level.  They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate.  And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.
> 
> Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.


What do you think crush? Grace T. seems to be saying that parents chasing a "national championship" for their 11 year old children is a really f**king stupid idea and bad for long term development. Are you going to let her get away with that?


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I had the same experience this weekend.  There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.
> 
> The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up.  Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them).  As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level.  They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate.  And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.
> 
> Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.


What was the injury? 

Have you ever looked at sports injury stats for teens  or kids in the USA?

65% of youth sports related injuries happened during practice. 

Soccer has about the same amount of kids under 14 at emergency rooms as do those that have trampoline related injuries.   Bicycling has 3x as many injuries as soccer.  Baseball, softball, football, skateboarding all have more for the 14 or less crowd.

Referees, coaches, trainers, parents all can take part in injury prevention.   If your relying on a refree to do them all that could be a problem. 

The only injuries that any of my kids experienced that required hospital or emergency visits where out side of soccer and they played more soccer than anything else by far.  Just saying.


----------



## baldref (Sep 27, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> What do you think crush? Grace T. seems to be saying that parents chasing a "national championship" for their 11 year old children is a really f**king stupid idea and bad for long term development. Are you going to let her get away with that?


What a Pathetic little person you are. It must really suck being that full of hate. I feel sorry for you


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 27, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Referees, coaches, trainers, parents all can take part in injury prevention.   If your relying on a refree to do them all that could be a problem.


But that's where we are at.  Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to.  The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins.  The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.  

The OP's post is about the parents.  What's the parent's remedy?  Yell at the ref?  I thought we didn't want them doing that.  So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?  

So the refs kinda all we have.  

Saying soccer is the same as a trampoline isn't really reassuring.  It would be expected that bicycles, football and baseball would all have greater injuries.  You gotta deal with expectations as well.  On the boys end, remember, many of them aren't playing football because of the injury stuff.  I think we all understand that soccer is a contact sport, and that in contact sports injuries happen.  No one is saying no injuries.  No one is saying no contact.  But soccer is also  game of rules, and fouls are part of the laws of the game.  The objection is when referees ignore the laws of the tame and fail to call non-trifling fouls, or allow games to spin out of control due to poor management or early fouls, either because they are incapable of making the calls, or believe in "let them play".


----------



## lafalafa (Sep 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> But that's where we are at.  Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to.  The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins.  The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.
> 
> The OP's post is about the parents.  What's the parent's remedy?  Yell at the ref?  I thought we didn't want them doing that.  So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?
> 
> ...


Oh wow guess things have degraded or changed somewhat from my kids youth playing days. 

Not sure when/if a change happen but you rarely had talk or news about youth soccer officiating that I recall until the last few years,.maybe the explosion of social media had something to do with it?   

Curious seems to be a weekly topic on this board about some game, call, shortage, style.   

So what can be done now to improve things beyond more numbers?


----------



## dad4 (Sep 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> But that's where we are at.  Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to.  The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins.  The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.
> 
> The OP's post is about the parents.  What's the parent's remedy?  Yell at the ref?  I thought we didn't want them doing that.  So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?
> 
> ...


The remedy?   More of us get out there and try to be good referees.   

It’s long term, but I don’t see what else would work.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 27, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Oh wow guess things have degraded or changed somewhat from my kids youth playing days.
> 
> Not sure when/if a change happen but you rarely had talk or news about youth soccer officiating that I recall until the last few years,.maybe the explosion of social media had something to do with it?
> 
> ...


Well, unless we pay the refs a whole lot more we aren't going to get better refs.  Which means that we can expect more coach/parent conflict with the refs in the future.

This didn't used to be a problem because there weren't so many teams trying to reach competitive higher levels in the past (since there weren't as many clubs and you didn't have every bronze level coach wanting to get promotion so that he can keep his job and the parents happy....keeping the parents happy has also been racheted up because of what's going on in colleges and that they are just much more competitive than they were when I went in and applied).  This also isn't as much of a problem in Europe, if everyone plays rec that wins just aren't as important and the really good refs are all tied up in the academy games....yes I think social media has also contributed to the toxic mix since Europe isn't free of this stuff either, but it is better there.

It's just a poisonous cocktail of pay to play, refs responding to incentives to get promotions, social media crassness which has entered society, and the expectations set by college and college recruiting. There are other remedies but they involve basically deconstructing the clubs as they exist now and having the national orgs be more hands on in management of this stuff, which no one in the system really wants.


----------



## whatithink (Sep 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> But that's where we are at.  Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to.  The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins.  The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.
> 
> The OP's post is about the parents.  What's the parent's remedy?  Yell at the ref?  I thought we didn't want them doing that.  So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?
> 
> ...


Agree with you here. I watched a U17 boys game this weekend past. Early in the 1st half a kid went in studs up maybe 18" off the ground and caught another kid who was kicking the ball. It was a red card. There wasn't even a foul called. The injured kid was out for the rest of the game, and may miss some time depending on the severity of the injury.

The ref started to issue some yellows as the game slowly descended into uglier tackles, and ended up with a straight red for each side, both for "tackles" which could have caused serious injury (but didn't). The ref "called" the game 5 minutes early ... as he felt it was getting out of control!!!

The only reason it got to that stage was the ref. That said, neither coach did anything to temper the way their teams were playing (at that point), not that it would have mattered to 22 15/16 year old boys on the field who were ramped up at that point.

The refs check the cards and can talk to both teams before a game, they can clearly state to the coach and players how they will ref the game at that time. They should follow the rules and call the fouls, carding or sending off if warranted. The above game should have been easy to ref. U17 boys will be robust & physical, but there's no reason for it to be dangerous if ref'd correctly. The boys know how to play to the ref and if he/she is "letting it flow" then the boys will push and push to see where the boundary is.


----------



## Soccer Dad & Ref (Sep 27, 2021)

Ref pay isn't the problem.  It's parents and coaches that treat them badly and make them quit or not want to come back after a life-changing pandemic.  Yes, there may be the extreme example of a very bad ref that needs to be reported, but I see ref abuse every game from parents and coaches that need to be controlled by the league.  Start sending representatives out to the games to start warning the abusers.


----------



## Soccer Dad & Ref (Sep 27, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The only reason it got to that stage was the ref. That said, neither coach did anything to temper the way their teams were playing (at that point), not that it would have mattered to 22 15/16 year old boys on the field who were ramped up at that point.


"the only reason...was the ref".  Seriously?  If my kid started playing like that they would be pulled off the field immediately.  Either when I'm coaching, or when I'm the parent.


----------



## whatithink (Sep 27, 2021)

Soccer Dad & Ref said:


> "the only reason...was the ref".  Seriously?  If my kid started playing like that they would be pulled off the field immediately.  Either when I'm coaching, or when I'm the parent.


If the ref had applied the rules correctly from the start, which he was being paid to do, then it would not have gotten to that point. So, yeah, its on the ref.


----------



## Frank (Sep 27, 2021)

whatithink said:


> If the ref had applied the rules correctly from the start, which he was being paid to do, then it would not have gotten to that point. So, yeah, its on the ref.


You got it right; the player, coaches and parents have no responsibility. It is the person that has never met them and is around 22 of them for 90 minutes.  Finally some sanity on this board........


----------



## espola (Sep 27, 2021)

Back when my kids were playing, there were 2 extremes embodied by Lee Popejoy (who no one ever yelled at because he was always right) and Dr. A, who no one ever yelled at twice (some of you know what that means).

Dr. A, BTW, was the only ref I ever saw dismissed from a tournament assignment because he wouldn't do what the TD wanted him to do.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 27, 2021)

Frank said:


> You got it right; the player, coaches and parents have no responsibility. It is the person that has never met them and is around 22 of them for 90 minutes.  Finally some sanity on this board........



Of course they have responsibility, but you can make policy on the assumption that people (or in this case teenagers or preteenagers or know nothing little kids learning to play the game and being told instructions by the adults) are angels or you can make policy on the assumption that there are real human beings there.  The parents of the offending player are probably cheering on the tackler for his/her toughness and winning the game.  The coach isn't going to say boo for fear of losing the game.  It's the incentives we created.  To think people are going to rise above the incentives just because they are good and responsible people is ignoring the realities of the situation.


----------



## baldref (Sep 28, 2021)

espola said:


> Back when my kids were playing, there were 2 extremes embodied by Lee Popejoy (who no one ever yelled at because he was always right) and Dr. A, who no one ever yelled at twice (some of you know what that means).
> 
> Dr. A, BTW, was the only ref I ever saw dismissed from a tournament assignment because he wouldn't do what the TD wanted him to do.


neither one them has reffed for 30 years. Way to stay pertinent


----------



## espola (Sep 28, 2021)

baldref said:


> neither one them has reffed for 30 years. Way to stay pertinent


My kids aren't that old, and Dr. A was doing high school games after they graduated -- I know that because he told me how to pronounce his name in the pre-game introductions when I was working the HS pressbox up until 2016.  His issue with the tournament director occurred when my older son was coaching, so that is within the last 12 years.


----------



## bossman (Sep 28, 2021)

Maybe each youth team needs to recruit their own Dennis Rodman to do damage control when the ref won't. This is not ideal and can obviously escalate into a dangerous cycle of injuries.


----------



## watfly (Sep 28, 2021)

In the last 7 years I've seen maybe 3 games where games got out of control and were dangerous.  One was just a bad ref, another was an elderly ref that admitted the game was too fast for his eyes and one was against an English team in Sweden.   I personally don't think we have an epidemic of refs not protecting the players, maybe your experience is different.  We do have an epidemic of shortage of refs.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say IMHO some refs tend to call too many fouls.  I believe we have too many stoppages in play.  From my perspective if the foul didn't really impact play, why call it.  Soccer is a contact sport and while my son is disadvantaged by rough play due to his size, it will ultimately make him a better player.

Small sample, but when we were at Gothia Cup in Sweden, the refs called far fewer fouls than their American counterparts.  I spoke to a couple and they said they are taught to err on the side of maintaining play as opposed to calling fouls.  SoCal parents would come unglued at this type of officiating, I know I did at first but came to appreciate it by the end of the tournament.

I say come down harder on the truly dangerous and flagrant fouls and play on with other fouls.  My pet peeve, which granted has nothing to do with physical play, is when refs call foul throw-ins. 99 times out of 100 they are trifling at best and 100 times out of 100 that throw in provides no advantage to the attacking team.

I don't pretend to be the perfect sideline parent, and I don't think we should just be appreciative of a ref that just shows up but puts no effort into his job, but given the shortage of refs we should appreciate the refs that show up and put in the effort.  Whether they are perfect or not. (I'll try my best to remember to do that myself )


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 28, 2021)

watfly said:


> In the last 7 years I've seen maybe 3 games where games got out of control and were dangerous.  One was just a bad ref, another was an elderly ref that admitted the game was too fast for his eyes and one was against an English team in Sweden.   I personally don't think we have an epidemic of refs not protecting the players, maybe your experience is different.  We do have an epidemic of shortage of refs.
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb and say IMHO some refs tend to call too many fouls.  I believe we have too many stoppages in play.  From my perspective if the foul didn't really impact play, why call it.  Soccer is a contact sport and while my son is disadvantaged by rough play due to his size, it will ultimately make him a better player.
> 
> ...


The problem with letting the lower level (but not trifling) fouls go early on is that the refs can lose control of the game really quickly.  The players (and coaches) will test the boundaries of how far the ref is going to let it slide and will start pushing things tit-for-tat against each other until finally you have a bad foul.  Most refs aren't equipped to manage that situation (heck some refs aren't even physically fit enough to properly officiate the game).  You need a pretty experienced ref to know how to manage that properly....which means you can let some of that slide more in the higher levels than in a U11 boys bronze game where the 2 coaches are desperate to earn a promotion or trophy....the more experienced refs get the higher level games.  I would expect far fewer fouls to be called at the Gothia Cup in Sweden or an EPL academy game than in a U12 Coast boys silver game.  In fact, I think too many fouls are called on the professional level such as handball (I like the new revisions) or a goalkeeper coming off the line prematurely on a PK or even contact fouls.


----------



## Eagle33 (Sep 28, 2021)

bossman said:


> Maybe each youth team needs to recruit their own Dennis Rodman to do damage control when the ref won't. This is not ideal and can obviously escalate into a dangerous cycle of injuries.


This does exist on many teams. They call them The enforcers.


----------



## Eagle33 (Sep 28, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with letting the lower level (but not trifling) fouls go early on is that the refs can lose control of the game really quickly.  The players (and coaches) will test the boundaries of how far the ref is going to let it slide and will start pushing things tit-for-tat against each other until finally you have a bad foul.  Most refs aren't equipped to manage that situation (heck some refs aren't even physically fit enough to properly officiate the game).  You need a pretty experienced ref to know how to manage that properly....which means you can let some of that slide more in the higher levels than in a U11 boys bronze game where the 2 coaches are desperate to earn a promotion or trophy....the more experienced refs get the higher level games.  I would expect far fewer fouls to be called at the Gothia Cup in Sweden or an EPL academy game than in a U12 Coast boys silver game.  In fact, I think too many fouls are called on the professional level such as handball (I like the new revisions) or a goalkeeper coming off the line prematurely on a PK or even contact fouls.


9 year olds today is very different from 9 year olds 20 years ago. Today those kids watch a lot flopping and gamesmanship and trying to emulate it. The level of the game is also increased a lot. Referee training today is mostly based on examples of professional games and useless for youth level, although I think it's changing. IMO ref education simply fell behind a game itself.


----------



## SFR (Sep 28, 2021)

watfly said:


> I don't pretend to be the perfect sideline parent, and I don't think we should just be appreciative of a ref that just shows up but puts no effort into his job, but given the shortage of refs we should appreciate the refs that show up and put in the effort.  Whether they are perfect or not. (I'll try my best to remember to do that myself )


I don't pretend to be perfect ref, just a parent who decided to start officiating after not been happy with bad officiating and now I am doing it for the past 6 or 7 years. I say, YES, you must appreciate every single ref that shows up for the games. In all my time officiating games I never saw a ref who would come with an intention to ruin someone game. You must be kidding yourself expecting from refs like me or 14-17 years old kids to handle games like PROs. I am not saying we shouldn't be questioned for calls or no calls but we do games as best we can. Again, I am not a professional referee and I am not well trained to handle all those inexcusable behavior coming from parents and coaches. Any team might end up with a ref who is not doing well but nothing can be done during the game to change that except taken the team from the field (never seen that but herd it). After the game coaches/parents/ club officials can report to referee org and expect them to take care of it.

All those refs who come for your games should be thanked before and after the game. Especially those youngsters as without them your teams will have your coaches to officiates the games. And, actually, I think it would be a good idea as they will be silent about their own calls and parents won't question their calls - problem with bad refs is solved


----------



## watfly (Sep 28, 2021)

SFR said:


> I don't pretend to be perfect ref, just a parent who decided to start officiating after not been happy with bad officiating and now I am doing it for the past 6 or 7 years. I say, YES, you must appreciate every single ref that shows up for the games. In all my time officiating games I never saw a ref who would come with an intention to ruin someone game. You must be kidding yourself expecting from refs like me or 14-17 years old kids to handle games like PROs. I am not saying we shouldn't be questioned for calls or no calls but we do games as best we can. Again, I am not a professional referee and I am not well trained to handle all those inexcusable behavior coming from parents and coaches. Any team might end up with a ref who is not doing well but nothing can be done during the game to change that except taken the team from the field (never seen that but herd it). After the game coaches/parents/ club officials can report to referee org and expect them to take care of it.
> 
> All those refs who come for your games should be thanked before and after the game. Especially those youngsters as without them your teams will have your coaches to officiates the games. And, actually, I think it would be a good idea as they will be silent about their own calls and parents won't question their calls - problem with bad refs is solved


I agree with everything you said, but I just want to clarify that I don't expect PRO quality, just put a good faith effort into your job.  

I don't usually hunt down refs to thank them, but I always say thanks to those refs I cross paths with after the game.  I usually shoot the shit with the AR if I'm on the right side.

Thanks for reffing.


----------



## GoldenGate (Oct 4, 2021)

baldref said:


> What a Pathetic little person you are. It must really suck being that full of hate. I feel sorry for you


You have no sense of humor.  It is also very disingenuous of you to think your personal attacks and hate is fun, but god forbid someone poke fun at the "strict constructionist" and a soccer parent who thinks the greatest moment of his life was when his 11 year old won a "national championship".


----------



## crush (Oct 4, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> You have no sense of humor.  It is also very disingenuous of you to think your personal attacks and hate is fun, but god forbid someone poke fun at the "strict constructionist" and a soccer parent who thinks the greatest moment of his life was when his 11 year old won a "national championship".


GG, how is EOTL doing this morning?  I've been waiting for you.  BTW, my dd won it all when she was 13.6 years old.  It still is one of the greatest moments of her soccer life and one I will cherish forever.  She and her teammates worked hard and gave up 18 months of their young life to win it all and put medal around neck and be National Champions.  She has now played in 17 club matches over the last four years.  She did track and volleyball two.  Maybe one day she can just focus on soccer and not worry about all the other things life throws a woman's soccer player in the USA!  What college again did you tell her she better stay away from again?  Threats to a 14 year old female is weak and one big loser from you.  Also, the creeps you worked with are losers.  Bad apples you guys were.  I knew it too.  TGIFM!!!


----------



## espola (Oct 4, 2021)

GoldenGate said:


> You have no sense of humor.  It is also very disingenuous of you to think your personal attacks and hate is fun, but god forbid someone poke fun at the "strict constructionist" and a soccer parent who thinks the greatest moment of his life was when his 11 year old won a "national championship".


He seems to have his own attitude about life and most of us are content to leave him there.


----------



## crush (Oct 4, 2021)

espola said:


> He seems to have his own attitude about life and most of us are content to leave him there.


I now have uncovered the theory to be true.  Golden Gate ((EOTL)) is Espola's shadow/ego.  You two can go ahead and talk to yourselves.  I understand those conversations all too well.  Fake Book is down dude.  It's house of cards built on being bought, bribed and blackmailed.  Build back better Espola and stop cheating dude and you too can enjoy life


----------



## lafalafa (Oct 4, 2021)

So what would you think if there was say 12 yellow cautions given to 11 different players,  one red card injection, and multiple penalty kicks in a 90 minute game?

Nothing violent, just regular fouls, almost evenly given out to both teams?

A typical college game with refs protecting players or one that some fans thought the refs may have lost control?


----------



## dad4 (Oct 5, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> So what would you think if there was say 12 yellow cautions given to 11 different players,  one red card injection, and multiple penalty kicks in a 90 minute game?
> 
> Nothing violent, just regular fouls, almost evenly given out to both teams?
> 
> A typical college game with refs protecting players or one that some fans thought the refs may have lost control?


12 cards in one game would surprise the heck out of me.

Normally everyone dials it back after even one yellow.   

I take it this is a fictional example.  Or did you ever see a game with 12 cards?


----------



## Eagle33 (Oct 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> 12 cards in one game would surprise the heck out of me.
> 
> Normally everyone dials it back after even one yellow.
> 
> I take it this is a fictional example.  Or did you ever see a game with 12 cards?


I know of a game with 22 red cards. Not fictional - it's actually happened.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 6, 2021)

Eagle33 said:


> This does exist on many teams. They call them The enforcers.


I call it masters of the dark arts.


----------



## dad4 (Oct 6, 2021)

Eagle33 said:


> I know of a game with 22 red cards. Not fictional - it's actually happened.


Brawl?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 6, 2021)

Watched the second half of a game from opposing 05 ECNL teams this last weekend. I must admit I was appalled by the lack of calls to protect the players from one of these teams. The ref crew is one I have seen before and in the past they seemed to be decent overall. Unfortunately not this time around. There were many instances of overtly aggressive to violent play by the opposition. In particular there was one player who was literally tackled and laid out on the ground for a substantial amount of time. This player soon after was again fouled in a similar fashion. The ref did nothing to further prevent this from happening again. No card, no verbal warning. And, once again this player was fouled in such a way I am surprised they were able to play further. Parents were pleading throughout the half to the ref to protect the players. The ref's solution was to red card anyone who challenged him.


----------



## whatithink (Oct 6, 2021)

Meanwhile in Brazil

William Ribeiro Charged with Attempted Murder After Kicking Referee in Head in Brazil | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights 

at 30secs odd and a "better" view on 1 minute

Twitter- Ref assault


----------



## lafalafa (Oct 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> 12 cards in one game would surprise the heck out of me.
> 
> Normally everyone dials it back after even one yellow.
> 
> I take it this is a fictional example.  Or did you ever see a game with 12 cards?


Last weekend games between to college teams in Nocal actually.

Yes I've seen other games like this and there are college  teams that routinely get half a dozen cards per game.

This particular one I was told was mostly regular fouls, dissent, or a accumulations but nothing in particularly violent or anything out of the ordinary.


----------



## lafalafa (Oct 6, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Watched the second half of a game from opposing 05 ECNL teams this last weekend. I must admit I was appalled by the lack of calls to protect the players from one of these teams. The ref crew is one I have seen before and in the past they seemed to be decent overall. Unfortunately not this time around. There were many instances of overtly aggressive to violent play by the opposition. In particular there was one player who was literally tackled and laid out on the ground for a substantial amount of time. This player soon after was again fouled in a similar fashion. The ref did nothing to further prevent this from happening again. No card, no verbal warning. And, once again this player was fouled in such a way I am surprised they were able to play further. Parents were pleading throughout the half to the ref to protect the players. The ref's solution was to red card anyone who challenged him.


Dang no fun in any of that.

Do you think the coach could or should have taken some action....speak to ref,. switch up, or anything that might have help defuse?

Can be very difficult to hold your tongue in certain circumstances but what outlet to parents really have? Speak to the coach at half?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 6, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Dang no fun in any of that.
> 
> Do you think the coach could or should have taken some action....speak to ref,. switch up, or anything that might have help defuse?
> 
> Can be very difficult to hold your tongue in certain circumstances but what outlet to parents really have? Speak to the coach at half?


The coach did switch the player to the oposite side away from the player who committed the fouls. However, their counterpart then committed the third. Coach did comment to the ref. I was not there for the first half and can not comment. That player should have just been pulled as the game was already settled.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Oct 6, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Watched the second half of a game from opposing 05 ECNL teams this last weekend. I must admit I was appalled by the lack of calls to protect the players from one of these teams. The ref crew is one I have seen before and in the past they seemed to be decent overall. Unfortunately not this time around. There were many instances of overtly aggressive to violent play by the opposition. In particular there was one player who was literally tackled and laid out on the ground for a substantial amount of time. This player soon after was again fouled in a similar fashion. The ref did nothing to further prevent this from happening again. No card, no verbal warning. And, once again this player was fouled in such a way I am surprised they were able to play further. Parents were pleading throughout the half to the ref to protect the players. The ref's solution was to red card anyone who challenged him.


I believe I know the game in question here…..it was awful!


----------



## futboldad1 (Oct 6, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> I believe I know the game in question here…..it was awful!


Me too.....a good friend's DD on the victorious team told me all about it.....dangerous play by teams is bad enough in a close game but when they are getting smashed 4-0 and still doing it it is even worse......and it's how that team "plays" on the regular......zero passing and smart soccer just kicking the ball AND the opponent to try and win at all costs and be damned development


----------



## Avanti (Oct 6, 2021)

futboldad1 said:


> Me too.....a good friend's DD on the victorious team told me all about it.....dangerous play by teams is bad enough in a close game but when they are getting smashed 4-0 and still doing it it is even worse......and it's how that team "plays" on the regular......zero passing and smart soccer just kicking the ball AND the opponent to try and win at all costs and be damned development


It has to be the coach telling them to play this way, you don't have 4 or 5 players playing like this at the same time, throughout the game. If this had been a game between men or teenage boys, somebody, anybody in the offending team would have paid for it. And the worst part was a parent of that team by my side, a mother actually, dismissing everything and mocking the players on the ground.


----------



## ToonArmy (Oct 6, 2021)

Sounds exactly like an 05 ecnl team my daughter played a couple years ago the worst display of kickball bullyball I ever seen one of our girls got put in a chokehold from behind thrown to the ground good Judo toss with the ball at her feet foul called but not even a yellow. Xhaka would of been proud.


----------



## JumboJack (Oct 9, 2021)

On a somewhat related note: I was out to shoot (photos) of three SCSL games today. The first one started with two refs running a dual but one of them left at halftime because he fell ill so the second half was solo. The second and third games were canceled because no refs showed up.


----------



## lafalafa (Oct 9, 2021)

JumboJack said:


> On a somewhat related note: I was out to shoot (photos) of three SCSL games today. The first one started with two refs running a dual but one of them left at halftime because he fell ill so the second half was solo. The second and third games were canceled because no refs showed up.


That's a bummer for everyone.

What venue and what flight teams was this for? 

Do you think there should or could be something done such as compensation(parking refund, ref fees, etc) or at least a free reschedule when these kind of situation come up?


----------



## JumboJack (Oct 9, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> That's a bummer for everyone.
> 
> What venue and what flight teams was this for?
> 
> Do you think there should or could be something done such as compensation(parking refund, ref fees, etc) or at least a free reschedule when these kind of situation come up?


First game was flight 2 in Los Alamitos. Others were flight 1 in West Covina. Im not sure who is to blame here but I assume that the buck stops and starts  which the league when it comes to providing refs.


----------



## watfly (Oct 10, 2021)

JumboJack said:


> First game was flight 2 in Los Alamitos. Others were flight 1 in West Covina. Im not sure who is to blame here but I assume that the buck stops and starts  which the league when it comes to providing refs.ub


Maybe there is some culpability on the part of the league, but this is a much greater problem than just refs.  It's nearly impossible to find employees currently.  We schedule a handful of Zoom interviews and were lucky if one person shows up.  College students can't get fed because the universities can't fill food service positions, restaurants are limiting hours or staying closed because they can't get help.  It's hitting those businesses that were non-essential or closed during the pandemic the worst.  Refs are part of this group.  I also think all the new leagues that were created just before or during the pandemic hasn't helped either.  Although, the number of teams participating may be the same or lower, I think the competition between leagues for refs isn't helping.  We're fortunate in MLS Next in that through 5 games we've had full crews with the exception of our 1st game where we had to use a club linesman (poor guy).  The ref crews have been solid.

As far as who is to blame, that's a better thread for the Off-Topic forum.


----------



## JumboJack (Oct 10, 2021)

watfly said:


> As far as who is to blame, that's a better thread for the Off-Topic forum.


I see what you did there. 

Today the two games I was at had a ref, an AR and a club linesman for both games.


----------



## outside! (Oct 11, 2021)

JumboJack said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> Today the two games I was at had a ref, an AR and a club linesman for both games.


My ref did four 9v9 games as a center with no AR's. All of the games at the complex only had one ref. He explained to two different groups of parents that they are partly to blame for the shortage of refs. He is thankful for the money but may start to refuse games at Robb Field due to the poor field conditions. He has twisted an ankle every time he refs there.


----------



## watfly (Oct 11, 2021)

outside! said:


> My ref did four 9v9 games as a center with no AR's. All of the games at the complex only had one ref. He explained to two different groups of parents that they are partly to blame for the shortage of refs. He is thankful for the money but may start to refuse games at Robb Field due to the poor field conditions. He has twisted an ankle every time he refs there.


So you're saying that Robb Field hasn't changed any?  Haven't been there in a few years, but it used to be the farther you get away from the channel and closer to the road, the worse the fields.


----------



## outside! (Oct 12, 2021)

watfly said:


> So you're saying that Robb Field hasn't changed any?  Haven't been there in a few years, but it used to be the farther you get away from the channel and closer to the road, the worse the fields.


Yep. Albion says it's the city's fault. The city doesn't really care. Too bad Albion is such a small club they can't afford to do anything about their crappy home fields.


----------



## crush (Oct 12, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Dang no fun in any of that.
> 
> Do you think the coach could or should have taken some action....speak to ref,. switch up, or anything that might have help defuse?
> 
> Can be very difficult to hold your tongue in certain circumstances but what outlet to parents really have? Speak to the coach at half?


I told a HSS ref to blow his whistle before halftime and he just smiled at me.  He finally made his first call right before the end of the half.  Insane because my kid and two others got whacked so hard their season was done.


----------



## Toch (Nov 2, 2021)

crush said:


> I told a HSS ref to blow his whistle before halftime and he just smiled at me.  He finally made his first call right before the end of the half.  Insane because my kid and two others got whacked so hard their season was done.


You need to start Reffing. Your foul recognition is on point


----------



## crush (Nov 2, 2021)

Toch said:


> You need to start Reffing. Your foul recognition is on point


Thanks man.  My wife was at my kids last game.  She rant into old dear friend from my dd old State Cup Championship team form 2015 glory days.  Her dd has a nice ride to a big time college.  However, soccer is all over for her.  She just tore her other ACL.  The game taught in America is super dangerous for girls.  I lost count of the players my kid knows who have torn ACL, broken legs, concussions and the like.  This is my last season and I am appalled at all the injuries.  I think if coaches stop teaching kickball and teach possession ((pass the rock)) and the refs outlaw rugby, we will see less injuries.


----------



## lafalafa (Nov 2, 2021)

crush said:


> Thanks man.  My wife was at my kids last game.  She rant into old dear friend from my dd old State Cup Championship team form 2015 glory days.  Her dd has a nice ride to a big time college.  However, soccer is all over for her.  She just tore her other ACL.  The game taught in America is super dangerous for girls.  I lost count of the players my kid knows who have torn ACL, broken legs, concussions and the like.  This is my last season and I am appalled at all the injuries.  I think if coaches stop teaching kickball and teach possession ((pass the rock)) and the refs outlaw rugby, we will see less injuries.


Bummer for the player but at least they will honor the ride.

The college game is a whole another level in physical play with two games a week couple to three days apart making recovery challenging. The trainers are working double time.

Game before ours this past weekend  had 37 fouls total between two teams 5 yellows but nothing out of the ordinary, like a typical game.    They keep track of more stats in college.    In club olders or high school never really saw those kind of stats so not sure In comparison but it's a different level of constant challenges.


----------



## espola (Nov 2, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Bummer for the player but at least they will honor the ride.
> 
> The college game is a whole another level in physical play with two games a week couple to three days apart making recovery challenging. The trainers are working double time.
> 
> Game before ours this past weekend  had 37 fouls total between two teams 5 yellows but nothing out of the ordinary, like a typical game.    They keep track of more stats in college.    In club olders or high school never really saw those kind of stats so not sure In comparison but it's a different level of constant challenges.


The college game is played by bigger, faster players, so increased physicality is just physics.  That is tempered in most cases by the fact that colleges can afford to hire better referees.


----------



## MacDre (Nov 2, 2021)

espola said:


> The college game is played by bigger, faster players, so increased physicality is just physics.  That is tempered in most cases by the fact that colleges can afford to hire better referees.


Bingo.  I think part of the problem is the unlimited substitutions.  Many of the players that I’ve noticed in college are big and fast (female NFL type players) but I don’t think they would do well in a game with limited substitutions because I suspect they are not the greatest endurance athletes.

I think if substitutions were limited more marathon/basketball type athletes would be selected, better decision making would be emphasized, and injuries would go down.

If you have a college team of linebacker type female athletes that are instructed to go as hard as they can for 15 minutes before the next group of “linebackers” are substituted in, I think injuries and fouls substantially increase.


----------



## lafalafa (Nov 2, 2021)

MacDre said:


> Bingo.  I think part of the problem is the unlimited substitutions.  Many of the players that I’ve noticed in college are big and fast (female NFL type players) but I don’t think they would do well in a game with limited substitutions because I suspect they are not the greatest endurance athletes.
> 
> I think if substitutions were limited more marathon/basketball type athletes would be selected, better decision making would be emphasized, and injuries would go down.
> 
> If you have a college team of linebacker type female athletes that are instructed to go as hard as they can for 15 minutes before the next group of “linebackers” are substituted in, I think injuries and fouls substantially increase.


Mass subs don't happen that much, many teams only play 4-5 subs but others will use 7.

Yellow card accumulation does get a one game suspension.

Regular times draws go into OT, playing 110miutes and you have to have endurance.  There are players that have not be subbed at all season.

I do agree that the unlimited subs can be gamed and might as well just go the fifa route but the one entry per half does limit some of that.  Not sure having limited subs reduce chance of injury, might be the opposite.. players are hurting or out of gas late but all the subs have already been used for example. 

Check out the USC v UCLA women's showdown for title this Friday if you want to see how things really go.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Nov 2, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Mass subs don't happen that much, many teams only play 4-5 subs but others will use 7.
> 
> Yellow card accumulation does get a one game suspension.
> 
> ...


Think USC takes this game. Despite their early loses their execution of play (direct) has been difficult for most anyone they have faced thus far. UCLA has not always executed as well as they should have. It seems USC can exploit this lack of commitment in UCLA's play. But, then again this is a rivalry and team analysis can be completely thrown away.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Nov 2, 2021)

UNC is the only program I have seen make “mass substitutions”. They will sub 7 or 8 girls at a time.


----------



## futboldad1 (Nov 2, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Think USC takes this game. Despite their early loses their execution of play (direct) has been difficult for most anyone they have faced thus far. UCLA has not always executed as well as they should have. It seems USC can exploit this lack of commitment in UCLA's play. But, then again this is a rivalry and team analysis can be completely thrown away.


My money is on UCLA....but it's going to be a humdinger of a close game


----------



## MacDre (Nov 2, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> UNC is the only program I have seen make “mass substitutions”. They will sub 7 or 8 girls at a time.


It seemed that UVA & FSU subbed approximately 2-3 players every 10-15 minutes at the game that I attended last week in Tallahassee.
I also couldn’t assess the quality of Jaelin Howell because FSU constantly booted the ball over midfield.  UVA’s keeper tried to play out of the back before a defender booted the ball to a winger.  I was throughly disappointed with both teams.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Nov 2, 2021)

MacDre said:


> It seemed that UVA & FSU subbed approximately 2-3 players every 10-15 minutes at the game that I attended last week in Tallahassee.
> I also couldn’t assess the quality of Jaelin Howell because FSU constantly booted the ball over midfield.  UVA’s keeper tried to play out of the back before a defender booted the ball to a winger.  I was throughly disappointed with both teams.


How the lawsuit coming?  Get your kid in the National Team yet?


----------



## MacDre (Nov 2, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> How the lawsuit coming?  Get your kid in the National Team yet?


Nope.  Equality for all is my goal not the National Team/NWSL.


----------



## lafalafa (Nov 18, 2021)

Well you don't see this often but *Uruguayan referee Andres Cunha* and video assistant Esteban Ostojich were suspended Wednesday after failing to give a red card to Argentina defender Nicolas Amend during a World Cup qualifying match against Brazil.









						South American ref suspended after failing to give red card
					

Uruguayan referee Andres Cunha and video assistant Esteban Ostojich were suspended Wednesday after failing to give a red card to Argentina defender Nicolas Otamendi during a World Cup qualifying match against Brazil.  Otamendi hit Brazil forward Raphinha with his elbow in the 35th minute of...



					news.yahoo.com
				




Also Wednesday, CONMEBOL suspended Chilean referee Roberto Tobar for not punishing Neymar and Juan Guillermo Cuadrado in Brazil’s 1-0 win over Colombia last Thursday.

Neymar put his chest close to Tobar’s during that match in Sao Paulo, but the Brazilian wasn’t booked. Cuadrado illegally used his arm later in the game and also wasn’t carded.

The south American and concacf games can be interesting physically with a lot of theatrics sometimes.


----------



## outside! (Nov 18, 2021)

lafalafa said:


> Well you don't see this often but *Uruguayan referee Andres Cunha* and video assistant Esteban Ostojich were suspended Wednesday after failing to give a red card to Argentina defender Nicolas Amend during a World Cup qualifying match against Brazil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now they need to go back and suspend the ref from the Euro Championship that did not red card Chiellini. For the record, I was rooting for Italy in that game.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Nov 18, 2021)

Yu


outside! said:


> Now they need to go back and suspend the ref from the Euro Championship that did not red card Chiellini. For the record, I was rooting for Italy in that game.


Yup.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Nov 18, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Watched the second half of a game from opposing 05 ECNL teams this last weekend. I must admit I was appalled by the lack of calls to protect the players from one of these teams. The ref crew is one I have seen before and in the past they seemed to be decent overall. Unfortunately not this time around. There were many instances of overtly aggressive to violent play by the opposition. In particular there was one player who was literally tackled and laid out on the ground for a substantial amount of time. This player soon after was again fouled in a similar fashion. The ref did nothing to further prevent this from happening again. No card, no verbal warning. And, once again this player was fouled in such a way I am surprised they were able to play further. Parents were pleading throughout the half to the ref to protect the players. The ref's solution was to red card anyone who challenged him.


In SD for the ECNL showcase last weekend. At my youngest DD's game on Saturday. During the second half as #3 wingback she was fouled six times. It was not till the 5th foul was a player who ended up fouling her 4 times given a yellow card. This player than proceded to foul her once more after the yellow was given. I feel at times ref's are reluctant to give cards. I am glad she was not hurt but WTF.


----------



## Surfref (Dec 9, 2021)

baldref said:


> Yes. I have seen similar a couple of times, as a father of a player not as a ref. Younger ages. Document it. Get the referee's name, opposing coaches name, and report to the gaming authority. Worst case nothing comes of it and your team loses a meaningless game. But no players are hurt.


And, always video the games.


----------



## Surfref (Dec 9, 2021)

JumboJack said:


> On a somewhat related note: I was out to shoot (photos) of three SCSL games today. The first one started with two refs running a dual but one of them left at halftime because he fell ill so the second half was solo. The second and third games were canceled because no refs showed up.


Not surprised…we have a massive shortage of referees and it is getting worse.  I know three refs that have quit since September.  All three said they were tired of the verbal abuse from parents and a few coaches.  I have done numerous high school age games this fall as a solo referee.  Pre-COVID it was extremely rare to have a solo referee on a B/G 15-18 game.  Now, it is common to see those games with only one referee.


----------



## Surfref (Dec 9, 2021)

outside! said:


> My ref did four 9v9 games as a center with no AR's. All of the games at the complex only had one ref. He explained to two different groups of parents that they are partly to blame for the shortage of refs. He is thankful for the money but may start to refuse games at Robb Field due to the poor field conditions. He has twisted an ankle every time he refs there.


Partially to blame is an understatement.  All but one of the 30+ referees that I know that hung up the whistle for good during COVID did so because they were tired of the verbal abuse by spectators/parents and some coaches.  Many of them said they were tired of feeling that Cal South and the gaming leagues (Coast, Presidio, ECNL, SOCal, etc.) did not support the referees or implement stricter sanctions for the poor behavior.  Maybe if Cal South and the leagues would put some harsh sanctions (minimum of 3 game suspension for coaches and 5 for spectators) in place for referee verbal abuse, we would stop losing good referees.


----------



## Surfref (Dec 9, 2021)

espola said:


> The college game is played by bigger, faster players, so increased physicality is just physics.  That is tempered in most cases by the fact that colleges can afford to hire better referees.


BS, the large majority of college referees also work high school and youth club games.


----------



## espola (Dec 9, 2021)

Surfref said:


> BS, the large majority of college referees also work high school and youth club games.


College refs may do high school and club games, but most of the HS and club refs don't do college games.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 9, 2021)

espola said:


> College refs may do high school and club games, but most of the HS and club refs don't do college games.


It’s absurd you think you know more than a gentlemen who officiates on a consistent basis. How old are your children? 40?


----------



## espola (Dec 9, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> It’s absurd you think you know more than a gentlemen who officiates on a consistent basis. How old are your children? 40?


It's just arithmetic.  There are fewer than 2500 college teams, counting men and women at all levels, in the whole country playing soccer.  Each hires 4 referees about 10 times a year for home games.  How many high school and club teams are there in the country?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 10, 2021)

espola said:


> It's just arithmetic.  There are fewer than 2500 college teams, counting men and women at all levels, in the whole country playing soccer.  Each hires 4 referees about 10 times a year for home games.  How many high school and club teams are there in the country?


Numerical data is great, but your data just not support any of this.


----------



## espola (Dec 10, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Numerical data is great, but your data just not support any of this.


It's actually tighter than that rough estimate. If you scan through a few college box scores over a season, you will see the same names occurring in multiple games.  There is a small pool of college refs compared to the larger numbers needed for HS and club games.


----------



## GoldenGate (Dec 10, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> It’s absurd you think you know more than a gentlemen who officiates on a consistent basis. How old are your children? 40?


It's absurd that you think someone who is willing to consistently subject themselves to abuse for $20-30 an hour has any idea what they are doing.


----------



## Frank (Dec 10, 2021)

espola said:


> College refs may do high school and club games, but most of the HS and club refs don't do college games.


During college and high school seasons I significantly reduce the amount of club games I will do. My time just shrinks and I am not willing to do a 3 game set for similar money than a single JC center. Approx 2 hours versus 6 hours too.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 11, 2021)

espola said:


> It's actually tighter than that rough estimate. If you scan through a few college box scores over a season, you will see the same names occurring in multiple games.  There is a small pool of college refs compared to the larger numbers needed for HS and club games.


Try you must but now you have changed the parameters of your own posts.


----------



## espola (Dec 11, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Try you must but now you have changed the parameters of your own posts.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## Surfref (Dec 12, 2021)

espola said:


> College refs may do high school and club games, but most of the HS and club refs don't do college games.


Speaking of College soccer.  The Men’s Division 1 Semi between Clemson and Notre Dame was a really good game. Went to PKs and Clemson won. The Clemson keeper had an amazing game. Final is today with Clemson and Washington.









						Clemson defeats Notre Dame in PK shootout finish to advance to College Cup final
					

Clemson and Notre Dame men's soccer squared off in the College Cup semifinal. After each team scored one goal in regulation, neither could break the 1-1 tie in overtime thanks to some outstanding goalkeeping from Bryan Dowd and George Marks. Watch the full match highlights here.




					www.ncaa.com


----------



## watfly (Dec 12, 2021)

How much more do they pay MLS Next refs?  Our refs this season have been excellent for the most part.


----------



## espola (Dec 12, 2021)

Surfref said:


> Speaking of College soccer.  The Men’s Division 1 Semi between Clemson and Notre Dame was a really good game. Went to PKs and Clemson won. The Clemson keeper had an amazing game. Final is today with Clemson and Washington.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't get ESPNU (so no final either).  This has been a bad year for me watching college soccer since most schools require a subscription service or are played on channels we don't get.  Exceptions were USD, UCSB, and Cal Poly.

The whole game will probably be on youtube by tomorrow, if historical practices prevail.


----------



## Surfref (Jan 8, 2022)

Got yelled at by a coach I know today, “Protect my players.”  My response, “I am not clairvoyant.”  His response, “I don’t even know what that means.”  Me, “Google it.”  About a minute later he respond, “I thought refs could see into the future.”  I just gave him a thumbs up.”


----------



## MoSalah (Mar 28, 2022)

bossman said:


> I’m sure we have all seen some amazing refs that do well to control the game and keep it clean. We have also seen some (especially at the younger levels) that simply will not call anything.
> 
> In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response?
> 
> ...


My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2.  In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe.  They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out.  The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less.  It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed.  Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights.  Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player.  In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical.  In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on...  Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.


----------



## crush (Mar 29, 2022)

MoSalah said:


> My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2.  In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe.  They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out.  The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less.  It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed.  Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights.  Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player.  In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical.  In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on...  Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.


Excellent takes.  I keep saying that the girls in the USA need a helmet, knee pads and extra padding to play soccer.  Back to back games on the weekends is not helping the girls.  Do they play back to back games on the weekends in Europe MoSalah?  The clubs make bank on parking fees though......lol.  It's rugby style mixed in with roller derby and just knocking players on the grass.  Big girls that are big, skilled and fast and can knock you down have the advantage in the states.  It's dangerous for smaller players that don't want to lift big weights to compete.  Refs can fix this right now if they pull cards out early and tell the hackers to knock it off or get the boot.


----------



## GoldenGate (Mar 30, 2022)

MoSalah said:


> My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2.  In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe.  They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out.  The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less.  It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed.  Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights.  Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player.  In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical.  In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on...  Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.


Youth refs are the reason the number one team in the world sucks, eh?  That's a new one.

Youth refs aren't any worse than they've ever been, yet somehow the US has managed to win two straight WCs and should have won three in a row.  People have been claiming the WNT has been getting passed for 20 years and, guess what, it hasn't. On this site alone, people have spent years claiming the U.S. has been passed by "more technical" Japan, Spain, Netherlands, France, Brazil, China, Germany, blah blah blah. There has always been a team or two that could challenge and sometimes beat the WNT, but they always fade and the WNT always stays at or near the top.  

The increased physicality is very much a reason for the WNT's dominance.  Sheer athleticism and physical ability is far more important on the women's side than boring everyone to death passing the ball around until Julie Ertz or Lindsay Horan runs them over.  The two teams the U.S. needs to worry about also play physical soccer, and they are England and Canada.  These teams are technical enough and have the one or two technical players necessary to leverage their physicality to dominate teams that play pretty but ineffective soccer.


----------



## Soccer Bum 06 (Mar 31, 2022)

MoSalah said:


> My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2.  In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe.  They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out.  The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less.  It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed.  Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights.  Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player.  In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical.  In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on...  Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.


My comments come from the perspective of a parent with a daughter and how the refs are not doing a good job with player safety. I don’t watch the boys side and can’t speak to it. I am seeing games at the ECNL level devolve into something that is not soccer. Teams trying to implement possession style and preach ball control are often taken out of that style by reckless, ultra-physical, less skilled teams. It is obvious that some coaches understand that in the youth girls game you can even the playing field with a more skilled team by being physical. This should be combatted by the referee calling appropriate fouls and using cards when needed. This is not happening in many instances. Dangerous tackles from behind, high elbows, arm extended pushing, and more are being used excessively. I am seeing fouls being called in many instances but cards are not being given even on the most egregious/dangerous fouls. I am not sure if it has to do with it being teenage girls that are causing refs not to card but it allows the game to devolve into rugby and ruins teams trying to play the game with a possession mindset. I am worried about injuries. It is secondary for me to think if the USWNT doesn’t win the next World Cup. I don’t want girls to end up with crippling injuries due to this trend in refereeing.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Mar 31, 2022)

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> My comments come from the perspective of a parent with a daughter and how the refs are not doing a good job with player safety. I don’t watch the boys side and can’t speak to it. I am seeing games at the ECNL level devolve into something that is not soccer. Teams trying to implement possession style and preach ball control are often taken out of that style by reckless, ultra-physical, less skilled teams. It is obvious that some coaches understand that in the youth girls game you can even the playing field with a more skilled team by being physical. This should be combatted by the referee calling appropriate fouls and using cards when needed. This is not happening in many instances. Dangerous tackles from behind, high elbows, arm extended pushing, and more are being used excessively. I am seeing fouls being called in many instances but cards are not being given even on the most egregious/dangerous fouls. I am not sure if it has to do with it being teenage girls that are causing refs not to card but it allows the game to devolve into rugby and ruins teams trying to play the game with a possession mindset. I am worried about injuries. It is secondary for me to think if the USWNT doesn’t win the next World Cup. I don’t want girls to end up with crippling injuries due to this trend in refereeing.


Agree 100%…

Our team is at 70% strength because of injuries… the league needs to track the injured and start policing the Refs… way to much pushing from behind.. slide tackles as a matter of course and not the exception.

In  my opinion, the ECNL is not communicating on a weekly basis with the Refs..no control.

the only thing the league does is put out a podcast about how their staff climbs the soccer hierarchy  ladder!


----------



## MoSalah (Mar 31, 2022)

Soccermaverick said:


> Agree 100%…
> 
> Our team is at 70% strength because of injuries… the league needs to track the injured and start policing the Refs… way to much pushing from behind.. slide tackles as a matter of course and not the exception.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head...there is little to Zero quality control on-going with respect to Refs...who gets what game, how games were called, how games should be called.  Surf Cup is a total joke--I think the powers that Be--must think that not giving cards will please the crowd--keep the paying parents happy--total nonsense.  How about the league and Surf really dedicating time to preparing the Refs...show some videos of fouls..cards...then actually implement--the experience would be so much better all the way around!!!  Essentially at the higher levels of play U15 onward--you have a College level of play. Consequentially, the Refs., need to be able to handle a game at that level...speed, etc.  When I pulled an AR aside several weeks ago, post game, I first thanked him.  I then told him that this is 1.  The Highest Level of Game in the City this weekend--not sure if he was aware of that; 2.  Told him that the Parents primary concern is Safety; 3.  Told him that we do not care if fouls are called on either side--just that they are called; 4.  Told him that at this level --Cards are not going to hurt anybody's feelings and that when a Card is merited, including a Red card--it needs to be pulled--Said, at this level of play, the ladies are essentially professional players...And should be treated as such; 5. Said not calling fouls and not pulling cards causes the game to devolve into a shit show...often rewarding a more physical team over a more technical and or tactical team (at the lower levels, but not when a game is called cleanly--as the skill players will run circles around the less technical and tactical player); 6.   Told him that poor quality refs is the biggest or one of the biggest problems in the future success of our soccer programs in the US... I told him the European play story about the quality of Refs...  His answer was that we need more Refs...  Hopefully, some of my comments were absorbed.


----------



## timbuck (Mar 31, 2022)

I agree that refs need to tighten up a bit, but...
If a player being reckless the fault of the ref?  Or the player?  Or the coach?

Ref- sees a foul and decides whether or not to call it.  Or card it.
Player-  Plays on the edge and if the ref won't call it-  He'll keep looking to see how far the edge is.
Coach-  Knows a player is an "enforcer".  Likes this on his team.  Doesn't coach a player to not foul / doesn't sub a player for being a safety risk.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Mar 31, 2022)

There are 17 girls  on our team.  12 are available now. 5 injured recently…Tackled from behind. Push from behind. Ankle kicks.. Refs only gave 1 yellow card for the 5.   1 out of 5 .. no red.  A disreputable coach could take out the entire team and get 1 or 2 yellows!

We should start sending  the Veo downloads to the league. Tag it to the Refs.

Soccer is not Hockey or American Football

Why does the ECNL have medical staff at the games? They are part of a system to mitigate risk.
The Ref is also part of that system.

What product is being produced by the league on a weekly basis and given to the the Refs to manage injury and risk.?

Nothing is given to them! Pass a test a couple of years ago and that’s it.. No situational awareness.

The league is relying on wishful thinking and whims when it comes to managing the Refs..


Botton Line : The ECNL needs to communicate the number of cards/ fouls and  injuries. Track the reason why kids are getting injured..

Yellows are ignored by clubs.. Reds are rare.. then Why are injuries high?  It’s not being managed ..


----------



## dad4 (Mar 31, 2022)

I don’t think you can get a tighter referee culture unless a league is pushing it and parents are willing to choose that league.

Which makes the question how many parents are willing to pull their kid from an ECNL team if another league has better refs.


----------



## Kicker 2.0 (Mar 31, 2022)

How many of you are accredited Referees?

If you want to fix it, get your license and get involved.


----------



## SFR (Apr 1, 2022)

MoSalah said:


> When I pulled an AR aside several weeks ago, post game, I first thanked him.  I then told him that this is 1.  The Highest Level of Game in the City this weekend--not sure if he was aware of that; 2.  Told him that the Parents primary concern is Safety; 3.  Told him that we do not care if fouls are called on either side--just that they are called; 4.  Told him that at this level --Cards are not going to hurt anybody's feelings and that when a Card is merited, including a Red card--it needs to be pulled--Said, at this level of play, the ladies are essentially professional players...And should be treated as such; 5. Said not calling fouls and not pulling cards causes the game to devolve into a shit show...often rewarding a more physical team over a more technical and or tactical team (at the lower levels, but not when a game is called cleanly--as the skill players will run circles around the less technical and tactical player); 6.   Told him that poor quality refs is the biggest or one of the biggest problems in the future success of our soccer programs in the US... I told him the European play story about the quality of Refs...  His answer was that we need more Refs...  Hopefully, some of my comments were absorbed.


With all due respect if you pull AR right after the game to say something then thanked him is all you should do.
I was saying it before and say it again who do you think those referees are, full time employees or some folks who are doing it for fun and/or some extra money and I am talking only about adult referees. Some referees are better than others and there is even less opportunity to select a special referee for the "most important games" as those referees decide when they have time to pick up a game. Of course, they could be asked but you just need to understand that referees with better credentials are doing other games than refereeing youth games.
Another thing is that since there are many so different leagues/tournaments with so many games that just getting a referee for the game is already huge achievement for those who is in charge of that. 
With saying all that I am not here to defend poor officiating.


----------



## crush (Apr 1, 2022)

SFR said:


> With all due respect if you pull AR right after the game to say something then thanked him is all you should do.
> I was saying it before and say it again who do you think those referees are, full time employees or some folks who are doing it for fun and/or some extra money and I am talking only about adult referees. Some referees are better than others and there is even less opportunity to select a special referee for the "most important games" as those referees decide when they have time to pick up a game. Of course, they could be asked but you just need to understand that referees with better credentials are doing other games than refereeing youth games.
> Another thing is that since there are many so different leagues/tournaments with so many games that just getting a referee for the game is already huge achievement for those who is in charge of that.
> With saying all that I am not here to defend poor officiating.


We need to pay the refs better, teach them the real game and how to pull yellow and then red cards.  This is the only way to clean this up and we should get better refs because good refs like good pay and will take classes on, "How to call a real soccer match like they do in Europe."  Bonuses for yellow and red cards.  We have to clean up the game and enforce the rules or the hacking will continue.  Soccer needs to be about passing the ball around and not rugby.  My old High School PE teacher also refed Pac 8 hoops, Big West and HS hoops.  He always said this, "if you want good officials, pay them a good wage."  Soccer is the worlds most popular sport and refs need good pay.  $75 for just about two hours plus drive time is not good wage, moo.  Plus the abuse from coaches, players and parents is all too much to take.  I bet if all the parents chipped in a "tip" we can make it worth the refs reason to ref.


----------



## SFR (Apr 1, 2022)

crush said:


> We need to pay the refs better, teach them the real game and how to pull yellow and then red cards.  This is the only way to clean this up and we should get better refs because good refs like good pay and will take classes on, "How to call a real soccer match like they do in Europe."  Bonuses for yellow and red cards.  We have to clean up the game and enforce the rules or the hacking will continue.  Soccer needs to be about passing the ball around and not rugby.  My old High School PE teacher also refed Pac 8 hoops, Big West and HS hoops.  He always said this, "if you want good officials, pay them a good wage."  Soccer is the worlds most popular sport and refs need good pay.  $75 for just about two hours plus drive time is not good wage, moo.  Plus the abuse from coaches, players and parents is all too much to take.  I bet if all the parents chipped in a "tip" we can make it worth the refs reason to ref.


I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay  where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.


----------



## crush (Apr 1, 2022)

SFR said:


> I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay  where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.


You make some great points.


----------



## dad4 (Apr 1, 2022)

SFR said:


> I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay  where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.


The clips the ref association sends out are always pro games.

If you're trying to become a better youth ref, it's pretty much useless.  If any U13 kid applies "excessive force" by professional standards, they deserve a red card and a weightlifting scholarship.


----------

