# DOC here. Any questions on the inside dealings?



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 12, 2022)

Hello. I am a DOC of a southwest girls soccer club. If you have any questions about how things work feel free to ask.


----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Hello. I am a DOC of a southwest girls soccer club. If you have any questions about how things work feel free to ask.


I have so many questions Doc from SWSC, but I will wait and be last and see if anyone missed any of my questions in my head. This should be interesting. First up?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 12, 2022)

crush said:


> I have so many questions Doc from SWSC, but I will wait and be last and see if anyone missed any of my questions in my head. This should be interesting. First up?


Ill be waiting. I just want to have an opportunity to connect with parents outside of my club and see what ideas they have. People mistaken my outspoken nature as trolling unfortunately.


----------



## VanMan (Jul 13, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

Still no questions Doc? I was going to take a big bite but I will hold off my bite and just nibble on here for a chicken nugget. Pay to play and pay to play is good are not the same, 100%. I read people online for a living and these two are not one and the same.


----------



## Technician72 (Jul 14, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Hello. I am a DOC of a southwest girls soccer club. If you have any questions about how things work feel free to ask.


Oh what the heck...

From your experience, in terms of percentages, how much does a players outreach in the college recruiting process weigh versus the players club coach, director outreach in the college recruiting process?

Both equally as important or more so one than the other?


----------



## timbuck (Jul 14, 2022)

I think a DOC gets involved in the finances, but let me know if that's not the case.
How do you budget fees vs costs?  Do you look at income vs expense on a team by team basis? Or just overall for the club?


----------



## crush (Jul 14, 2022)

Lets see how long it takes for Doc to answer. Im sure he's with his coaches planning out next seassons teams.

My Q.If one of your coaches tells a parent they will only carry 18 on the roster but then after you pay in full for 10% off, he adds two players that 100% take your dd spot, should customer get his money back? Q#2- Do we need to take coaches word or get it in writing?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 14, 2022)

Technician72 said:


> Oh what the heck...
> 
> From your experience, in terms of percentages, how much does a players outreach in the college recruiting process weigh versus the players club coach, director outreach in the college recruiting process?
> 
> Both equally as important or more so one than the other?


If the club is well known like Surf and Legends, I'd say about equally important. 50/50. Most clubs are honest and don't recommend every player to top schools. Smaller ga/ecnl clubs are probably sitting around a 80% player outreach/ 20% club outreach. Everyone else is basically 100% player outreach unless their coach has great connections.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 14, 2022)

timbuck said:


> I think a DOC gets involved in the finances, but let me know if that's not the case.
> How do you budget fees vs costs?  Do you look at income vs expense on a team by team basis? Or just overall for the club?


We have a separate staff member who controls our finances (CFO). I know roughly how things are done in our club. We budget fees/costs by looking at prior year profits. High profit year we don't change things. Low profit year we raise/lower costs based on some factors. We generally look at income vs expense overall for the club. But, we do keep metrics for team by team just incase we have an outlier.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 15, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> We have a separate staff member who controls our finances (CFO). I know roughly how things are done in our club. We budget fees/costs by looking at prior year profits. High profit year we don't change things. Low profit year we raise/lower costs based on some factors. We generally look at income vs expense overall for the club. But, we do keep metrics for team by team just incase we have an outlier.


Along these same lines-  How did Covid impact overall finances and future planning?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 15, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Along these same lines-  How did Covid impact overall finances and future planning?


Covid hasn't really impacted overall finances. As long as profits are staying in the positives I'm happy. Future planning wise we are sticking to the same principles since circa 2017. I cannot go further into details on that.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 15, 2022)

crush said:


> Lets see how long it takes for Doc to answer. Im sure he's with his coaches planning out next seassons teams.
> 
> My Q.If one of your coaches tells a parent they will only carry 18 on the roster but then after you pay in full for 10% off, he adds two players that 100% take your dd spot, should customer get his money back? Q#2- Do we need to take coaches word or get it in writing?


Question 1. Nothing can be ever guaranteed just like play time. Customer won't get money back if someone else takes their spot. That's like a college coach telling your daughter that she may start freshman year (which is very unlikely to actually happen.) Question 2. Take the coaches word and think about if he is honest or not. Remember, coaches at the club will do anything they can to improve a team because their job is always on the line. Also, better team performance correlates with increased revenue.


----------



## crush (Jul 15, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Question 1. Nothing can be ever guaranteed just like play time. Customer won't get money back if someone else takes their spot. That's like a college coach telling your daughter that she may start freshman year (which is very unlikely to actually happen.) Question 2. Take the coaches word and think about if he is honest or not. Remember, coaches at the club will do anything they can to improve a team because their job is always on the line. Also, better team performance correlates with increased revenue.


No, it's called lying


----------



## Goforgoal (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> No, it's called lying


To be fair, sometimes it's incompetence.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> No, it's called lying


Why would a coach give up the opportunity to improve a team. Things change and increasing roster size from 18 to 20 isn't very significant. Helps bring some extra cash and remember, players get injured all the time.


----------



## SDMama (Jul 16, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Why would a coach give up the opportunity to improve a team. Things change and increasing roster size from 18 to 20 isn't very significant. Helps bring some extra cash and remember, players get injured all the time.


A roster size change from 16 to 18 isn’t that big a deal, maybe. But going from 18 to 20 means that not all players can suit up for each game.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 16, 2022)

SDMama said:


> A roster size change from 16 to 18 isn’t that big a deal, maybe. But going from 18 to 20 means that not all players can suit up for each game.


Doesn’t this in part depend on the level?  I’d expect an mls academy team to do this and not a word of complain uttered. Maybe an mls next team…it can be quite brutal and you may even have a keeper on the team that barely sees the field all season. If your npl team is doing it then yeah that’s awful. If it’s a flight 2 team why are people still even on such a team since there’s no point.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 16, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Doesn’t this in part depend on the level?  I’d expect an mls academy team to do this and not a word of complain uttered. Maybe an mls next team…it can be quite brutal and you may even have a keeper on the team that barely sees the field all season. If your npl team is doing it then yeah that’s awful. If it’s a flight 2 team why are people still even on such a team since there’s no point.


I am referring to ga/ecnl teams right now.


----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

Goforgoal said:


> To be fair, sometimes it's incompetence.


I call it lying and greed.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> I call it lying and greed.


Sorry to tell you this but, nothing will ever be fair in life. Even for your daughter. Without a strong team, our coaches will run the risk of losing their job  and revenue will drop.


----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Sorry to tell you this but, nothing will ever be fair in life. Even for your daughter. Without a strong team, our coaches will run the risk of losing their job  and revenue will drop.


No need to be sorry. Thanks for being honest and I mean that 100%. Yes, life *was *not fair but your wrong that it will never be fair. The reason life is not fair is because you lie for a living. You teach your coaches to lie to parents by saying, "just lie to parents that ask about the "18" only.


----------



## Mello (Jul 17, 2022)

I have a question! When clubs release/fire/let go of a coach, is it customary to pay them for the remainder of their contract, or is it based on their particular contract, or are they just let go? Just curious what the standard is.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 17, 2022)

Mello said:


> I have a question! When clubs release/fire/let go of a coach, is it customary to pay them for the remainder of their contract, or is it based on their particular contract, or are they just let go? Just curious what the standard is.


At my club, we pay them for the remainder of the contract. We don't offer very long contracts maybe max 3 years at the most. Larger clubs in general will pay the remainder of the contract. Clubs running on a shoestring don't provide benefits and let go coaches or ask them to leave.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 17, 2022)

crush said:


> No need to be sorry. Thanks for being honest and I mean that 100%. Yes, life *was *not fair but your wrong that it will never be fair. The reason life is not fair is because you lie for a living. You teach your coaches to lie to parents by saying, "just lie to parents that ask about the "18" only.


I tell my GA/DPL coaches to do whatever it takes to win games. No lying involved.


----------



## crush (Jul 17, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I tell my GA/DPL coaches to do whatever it takes to win games. No lying involved.


Lie to win? I would do it like this is I was Doc
Parent: How many will you have on the roster Coach

Coach: I would like to only carry 18 but have room for 22.

Parent: Oh wow, so my kid and other kids might be left of the game day roster?

Coach: Yes. My boss told me my #1 job is to win and I will have open spots for top players.

Parent: Ok, no thanks

How Doc Paytoplayisgood teaches

Parent: How many you taking on the roster.

Coach who is taught to lie to win: I will only take 18.

Parent: Are you sure?

Coach: You have my word ((wink wink))

Parent: Here is my $3000.

Coach two weeks later before Showcase: Hey team, please welcome so and so and so and so. Their your new teammates. I will let two of you know during warm ups which of you will sit next to me so I can teach how pay to play is played.

Parent calls coach ((ring ring)): Hey coach, what's the deal here. You said 18 and now 20. That is a lie and I want my money back pal

Coach: Talk to my boss. He told me to lie to win. We all do dad. 5 teams x 2 extra players is extra $30,000 sucker. Now STFU and get lost.

Parent calls the boss: Hey, one of your coaches is a liar. He said only 18 and when I took dear dd to AZ for big showcase, he picked my kid to ride the pine first game so she can learn how pay to play is done

Doc: Did you get it in writing

Parent: What???? Are you freaking serious. I want my money back bro and I want it back now

Doc: I have these other teams to look at. I have spot on this team and that team

Parent: No, I want my money

Doc: Sorry Charlie, no money back. This is how college works. You need pay to play and earn to be in the top 18.

Parent: I'm going on the SoCal Soccer Forum and ask them if this how it's done

Doc: It would be best to STFU or else I will tell coaches you ask too many Qs


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 17, 2022)

crush said:


> Lie to win? I would do it like this is I was Doc
> Parent: How many will you have on the roster Coach
> 
> Coach: I would like to only carry 18 but have room for 22.
> ...


I see nothing wrong with this. If you don't want to play competitive soccer (GA/ECNL/DPL/ECRL) then recreational non elite league soccer is for you. I will be more than happy to send your daughter to the lower teams.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 18, 2022)

I have some questions, sort of.  Tell us about yourself.  Why are you in this business?  What motivated you to become a DOC at a soccer club?  Is your screen name ironic, a troll-job, or do you really believe that statement?  Full disclosure, I have a pretty negative view of all DOC's in general.  I've only met two who I thought had a lot of integrity, were intelligent, and had good communication skills, and one of those got squeezed out/stepped down after a few years.  The other ran a very small boutique club and I have no idea if they're still around.  The rest were generally pretty poor on 2 out of those 3 qualities or just downright awful.


----------



## Mello (Jul 18, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Sorry to tell you this but, nothing will ever be fair in life. Even for your daughter. Without a strong team, our coaches will run the risk of losing their job  and revenue will drop.


Regarding your comment "coaches will run the risk of losing their job" how long do clubs generally keep an underperforming coach? And in your opinion what is considered underperforming? Please feel free to answer or not answer any part of either question.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 18, 2022)

Mystery Train said:


> I have some questions, sort of.  Tell us about yourself.  Why are you in this business?  What motivated you to become a DOC at a soccer club?  Is your screen name ironic, a troll-job, or do you really believe that statement?  Full disclosure, I have a pretty negative view of all DOC's in general.  I've only met two who I thought had a lot of integrity, were intelligent, and had good communication skills, and one of those got squeezed out/stepped down after a few years.  The other ran a very small boutique club and I have no idea if they're still around.  The rest were generally pretty poor on 2 out of those 3 qualities or just downright awful.


A DOC is like the HR department at a big company.
Their job is to protect the COMPANY.  They may plan some company events - but know that most of the time if you come to complain to them about an issue- they are focused on what is best for the company.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 18, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I see nothing wrong with this. If you don't want to play competitive soccer (GA/ECNL/DPL/ECRL) then recreational non elite league soccer is for you. I will be more than happy to send your daughter to the lower teams.


Wait...you consider ECRL elite competitive soccer?

I thought you implied it and EAL were both money grabs?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Wait...you consider ECRL elite competitive soccer?
> 
> I thought you implied it and EAL were both money grabs?


That was on the boys side. On the girls side ecrl isn't a money grab.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 18, 2022)

Mello said:


> Regarding your comment "coaches will run the risk of losing their job" how long do clubs generally keep an underperforming coach? And in your opinion what is considered underperforming? Please feel free to answer or not answer any part of either question.


If a coach is underperforming in multiple teams, clubs tend to give them shorter times like around a year. Usually, the coach is just demoted to lower level teams. In my opinion, underperforming is when a coach tells everyone else his reasonable season expectations and doesn't reach it in anyway. Whether that be league standing, player morale, etc


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 18, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> That was on the boys side. On the girls side ecrl isn't a money grab.


That doesn't make sense.  The boys need a place to place their second teams as well.  Not understanding the distinction between the two and why the girls 2nd teams would be different than the boys.  Not trying to gotcha.  Honest question as I don't know the girls as well.



paytoplayisgood said:


> If a coach is underperforming in multiple teams, clubs tend to give them shorter times like around a year. Usually, the coach is just demoted to lower level teams. In my opinion, underperforming is when a coach tells everyone else his reasonable season expectations and doesn't reach it in anyway. Whether that be league standing, player morale, etc


I hate the word but isn't that somewhat "unfair".  A coach only has the team for a certain amount of time (and whatever field time the club alots to them).  Basically the results comes down to two things in the short term: a) recruitment, and b) certain methods they might be able to use to get an early leg up (recruit taller faster players only, long ball it, don't play out of the back) particularly at the younger ages.


----------



## crush (Jul 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> That doesn't make sense.  The boys need a place to place their second teams as well.  Not understanding the distinction between the two and why the girls 2nd teams would be different than the boys.  Not trying to gotcha.  Honest question as I don't know the girls as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate the word but isn't that somewhat "unfair".  A coach only has the team for a certain amount of time (and whatever field time the club alots to them).  Basically the results comes down to two things in the short term: a) recruitment, and b) certain methods they might be able to use to get an early leg up (recruit taller faster players only, long ball it, don't play out of the back) particularly at the younger ages.


I tried to engage but I think we all know who this Bot belongs to. He might just be a shill or troll but whatever he is, he supports the Club and the Docs who lie to parents and I think it's time they pay some of us back. No one did what I did out of fear. Parents would always tell me at drinks that another coach lied again. Time to stop the lying is my attitude. Forking out $3,000 to be on a team of 18 is a contract folks. 100% verbal and a hand shake contract is binding in a court if you can prove it. 18 is a value number because a kid needs to play to be seen for big scholarship money.. I would also add a bait and switch to this heist as well. I'm not the only parent that this happen to, I just speak up.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 18, 2022)

crush said:


> I tried to engage but I think we all know who this Bot belongs to. He might just be a shill or troll but whatever he is, he supports the Club and the Docs who lie to parents and I think it's time they pay some of us back. No one did what I did out of fear. Parents would always tell me at drinks that another coach lied again. Time to stop the lying is my attitude. Forking out $3,000 to be on a team of 18 is a contract folks. 100% verbal and a hand shake contract is binding in a court if you can prove it. 18 is a value number because a kid needs to play to be seen. I would also add a bait and switch to this heist as well. I'm not the only parent that this happen to, I just speak up.


a verbal contract is not generally a contract if there is a written contract with the club.  A written contract will have a mergers clause that supersede any oral agreement.  It's why the McDonalds guys so famously got shafted out of their royalties as covered in the movie "Founder".

This also implies that the elite levels among the girls are somehow lesser than that of the boys.  Because the MLS Academy teams reserve the right to bench you at any time and even the MLS Next teams mostly come with no assurances of play time (as I said, there's usually a second place goalkeeper that will barely see the field all season).  It sucks, but that's the reality of the top flight.  Where I agree with you is that the line should be drawn at the top flight....for anything less the behavior is inexcusable because there you are really just talking development.  It also speaks to the need for a true elite flight among the girls instead of the mess they have with top players scattered across ECNL, GA and ERCL...most of those aren't truly elite and because there are less professional opportunities for the girls than the boys, the footprint really should be the size of MLS Academies or smaller.


----------



## crush (Jul 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> a verbal contract is not generally a contract if there is a written contract with the club.  A written contract will have a mergers clause that supersede any oral agreement.  It's why the McDonalds guys so famously got shafted out of their royalties as covered in the movie "Founder".
> 
> This also implies that the elite levels among the girls are somehow lesser than that of the boys.  Because the MLS Academy teams reserve the right to bench you at any time and even the MLS Next teams mostly come with no assurances of play time (as I said, there's usually a second place goalkeeper that will barely see the field all season).  It sucks, but that's the reality of the top flight.  Where I agree with you is that the line should be drawn at the top flight....for anything less the behavior is inexcusable because there you are really just talking development.  It also speaks to the need for a true elite flight among the girls instead of the mess they have with top players scattered across ECNL, GA and ERCL...most of those aren't truly elite and because there are less professional opportunities for the girls than the boys, the footprint really should be the size of MLS Academies or smaller.


Not my contract. It's called a verbal amendment through texts, plus nowhere on my contrat did it say 18 or 22 for that matter. It was none issue until I got the skinny of this liar. I know how this game is played, trust me. First off, I know what I signed Grace T. I can read still and not too dumb dumb. I also have text and email for years. They all lied except one man.  Bait and switch as well. Sign up for one league ((when they already knew the next week it's DPL)) and then be told. "sorry sucker, we lied to get your money first." I would love for everyone to who got burned to get a few grand back, what say you?  Depositions is where the Truth comes to light and the liars are exposed. It was just an idea. Dude told me to STFU.


----------



## crush (Jul 18, 2022)

Oh oh, someone is threaten and sending text again. Who runs soccer right now you guys? Don't be threaten Doc boys in the club. It was just a thought and it would be cool to see some parents get some relief for all the lies over the years. I know one dad who spent over $50,000 the last four years and what he told me happen to him is insane.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 19, 2022)

To the OP:  I see you have neglected to reply to my question.  Very telling.  But never mind.  I don't care to hear your answer.  I'll stick with my initial assessment of you after you posted this idiotic statement on another thread:



paytoplayisgood said:


> if your club isn't in ecnl or ga. your not good enough for college


As the parent of a college player, I know precisely how stupid that statement is.


----------



## Mello (Jul 20, 2022)

From a clubs point of view, what is the overall opinion of team managers? Are they appreciated? Are they a p.i.t.a? In your opinion do they deserve special treatment? Extra playing time for their kid? What are your thoughts in general?


----------



## ajaxahi (Jul 20, 2022)

Hey paytoplayisgood!  Assuming you are not being ironic with your screen name, you must have some strong opinions on the matter.  So how is pay to play good?  And for whom?  Please be specific.


----------



## Sike (Jul 20, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It also speaks to the need for a true elite flight among the girls instead of the mess they have with top players scattered across ECNL, GA and ERCL...most of those aren't truly elite and because there are less professional opportunities for the girls than the boys, the footprint really should be the size of MLS Academies or smaller.


You think top players are in ECRL on the girls side?? To my surprise, some really good players and teams still left in GA, but the vast majority of the top players and teams are in ECNL on the girls side.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 20, 2022)

Sike said:


> You think top players are in ECRL on the girls side?? To my surprise, some really good players and teams still left in GA, but the vast majority of the top players and teams are in ECNL on the girls side.


You miss the point.  On the boys side MLS is the process of dividing so the top flight are the academy teams that play each other in league.  The rest of the MLS Next teams not affiliated with academies are put in separate divisions as they get older.  So the truly elite players on the boys side are now playing for the academy side.  The rest of the teams play each other and are used as training fodder for the academy teams.

ECNL on the girls side (like MLS Next) is so vast that the truly elite players are intermixed with other top players.  They don't really have an elite league to develop the handful of girls which will go on to the USWNT or the pros, unlike the boys.  If there were (because there are fewer women's pro opportunities than the men's) it would be much smaller than the boys elite league.  But as a result, even just ECNL (never mind GA/DPL/ECRL) is the wild west.


----------



## Sike (Jul 20, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> You miss the point.  On the boys side MLS is the process of dividing so the top flight are the academy teams that play each other in league.  The rest of the MLS Next teams not affiliated with academies are put in separate divisions as they get older.  So the truly elite players on the boys side are now playing for the academy side.  The rest of the teams play each other and are used as training fodder for the academy teams.
> 
> ECNL on the girls side (like MLS Next) is so vast that the truly elite players are intermixed with other top players.  They don't really have an elite league to develop the handful of girls which will go on to the USWNT or the pros, unlike the boys.  If there were (because there are fewer women's pro opportunities than the men's) it would be much smaller than the boys elite league.  But as a result, even just ECNL (never mind GA/DPL/ECRL) is the wild west.


I was just pointing out that your statement about top players being spread out in ECRL on the girls side is incorrect. I understand your point. Not sure the "elite" players can't be developed in the ECNL model on the girls side, but agree that they are intermixed with players not nearly as good due to the size of the league.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jul 20, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I tell my GA/DPL coaches to do whatever it takes to win games. No lying involved.


What if doing whatever it takes to win will come at the expense of less development for the players over the course of a season?


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 20, 2022)

Sike said:


> I was just pointing out that your statement about top players being spread out in ECRL on the girls side is incorrect. I understand your point. Not sure the "elite" players can't be developed in the ECNL model on the girls side, but agree that they are intermixed with players not nearly as good due to the size of the league.


I was just parroting the words used by payorplayisgood, assuming he was arguendo right in his characterization of ECRL to focus on the one argument.   I like your assessment.  I think it's correct.

If our system made more rational sense instead of all these orgs guarding their turf (including AYSO) it would look much more similar to the European model and something like this:

-A small top flight of academy teams for the boys, a smaller flight for the girls, full funded.
-An MLS Next division for the boys, ECNL for the girls, with more clubs in the larger cities, fewer on the peripheries, targeted at producing D1 college players and used as training fodder for the academy teams so they get cross play
-An EA division for the boys and ECRL for the girls for the second teams, serving also as a reserve which the division 1 teams can dip into so as to be able to limit their numbers
-Flight 1-4 into which clubs can self sort themselves with prodding from admins to make sure teams are put into appropriate flights, with the largest and heaviest flights being 2-3 (in contrast to the pyramid Coast built)
-AYSO Extras
-AYSO Core (I'd give this all to AYSO and remove the practice of feeder rec soccer from which the clubs can get players in order to integrate AYSO into the structure and focus their attention on what they do well as well as solving the access problem for the AYSO United teams).


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 20, 2022)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> What if doing whatever it takes to win will come at the expense of less development for the players over the course of a season?


At older age groups that is fine. More wins = more college exposure = higher club prestige = more profits. At younger age groups like anything under u16 we focus on development more. Quality development at younger ages builds better players for the years that count.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 20, 2022)

ajaxahi said:


> Hey paytoplayisgood!  Assuming you are not being ironic with your screen name, you must have some strong opinions on the matter.  So how is pay to play good?  And for whom?  Please be specific.


Pay to play ensures that girls have access to top quality facilities and coaching staff. If the higher ups in youth clubs are happy with their finances, that will trickle down to the coaches and furthermore to players. No one wants to run a business at a lost and pay to play avoids that. Those who cannot afford 3k a year soccer can opt in for financial aid. High school sports is a route for them also.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 20, 2022)

Mystery Train said:


> I have some questions, sort of.  Tell us about yourself.  Why are you in this business?  What motivated you to become a DOC at a soccer club?  Is your screen name ironic, a troll-job, or do you really believe that statement?  Full disclosure, I have a pretty negative view of all DOC's in general.  I've only met two who I thought had a lot of integrity, were intelligent, and had good communication skills, and one of those got squeezed out/stepped down after a few years.  The other ran a very small boutique club and I have no idea if they're still around.  The rest were generally pretty poor on 2 out of those 3 qualities or just downright awful.


I am in this business because honestly I love soccer, my daughters are involved in the game, its a rather efficient job. I wanted to become a DOC simply because I enjoy it. Watching teams grow and coaches succeeding makes me happy. My screen name is no troll job and is my belief. People despise those in power sadly and will never understand which is why I started this thread.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 20, 2022)

Mello said:


> From a clubs point of view, what is the overall opinion of team managers? Are they appreciated? Are they a p.i.t.a? In your opinion do they deserve special treatment? Extra playing time for their kid? What are your thoughts in general?


80% of our team managers are lazy and only care about the success of their child honestly hahaha. There are some who truly care about the team and club. Those ones are greatly appreciated. Extra playing time for their kid is up to the coaches on this one but generally if the kid is towards the bottom of the depth chart, she will be exempt from being cut.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 20, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> 80% of our team managers are lazy and only care about the success of their child honestly hahaha. There are some who truly care about the team and club. Those ones are greatly appreciated. Extra playing time for their kid is up to the coaches on this one but generally if the kid is towards the bottom of the depth chart, she will be exempt from being cut.


Serious question -  why do coaches put so much on to team managers?  
I get that you need someone to plan some stuff outside of practice times to get teams to bond.
But the collection of player cards, the printing of rosters, the set up of teamsnap, collecting funds, figuring out who brings the bench and canopy -  I really don't think there is any reason that a coach or a club admin shouldn't be able to handle this stuff.


----------



## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 20, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Serious question -  why do coaches put so much on to team managers?
> I get that you need someone to plan some stuff outside of practice times to get teams to bond.
> But the collection of player cards, the printing of rosters, the set up of teamsnap, collecting funds, figuring out who brings the bench and canopy -  I really don't think there is any reason that a coach or a club admin shouldn't be able to handle this stuff.


Asking a LOT of the Club admin to do anything for a team beyond collection of Club Fees and Player Registration.  Especially if the Club has 30+ teams.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 20, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Serious question -  why do coaches put so much on to team managers?
> I get that you need someone to plan some stuff outside of practice times to get teams to bond.
> But the collection of player cards, the printing of rosters, the set up of teamsnap, collecting funds, figuring out who brings the bench and canopy -  I really don't think there is any reason that a coach or a club admin shouldn't be able to handle this stuff.


Managers choose to volunteer. If clubs didn't have managers volunteering, you would see an increase in player fees.


----------



## N00B (Jul 20, 2022)

@crush (that’s the personality I like to picture) you’re making me .


----------



## crush (Jul 20, 2022)

N00B said:


> @crush (that’s the personality I like to picture) you’re making me .


Come again?


----------



## N00B (Jul 20, 2022)

crush said:


> Come again?


Hmmm… emoji didn’t show. I’m laughing at paytoplayisgood.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jul 20, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> At older age groups that is fine. More wins = more college exposure = higher club prestige = more profits. At younger age groups like anything under u16 we focus on development more. Quality development at younger ages builds better players for the years that count.


Am I the only one cringing when I read this?  Sounds like players are not the top priority.


----------



## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 21, 2022)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Am I the only one cringing when I read this?  Sounds like players are not the top priority.


OP is definitely not a DOC…


----------



## Mello (Jul 21, 2022)

Do the DOC's in a general area have any kind of a working relationship? Is it a good working relationship? Do they help each other out? Do they throw each other under the bus? Please describe.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 21, 2022)

Mello said:


> Do the DOC's in a general area have any kind of a working relationship? Is it a good working relationship? Do they help each other out? Do they throw each other under the bus? Please describe.


I'm not a DOC, but my impression is that the youth soccer landscape is so fragmented because of long standing grudges among adult men.
"He stole my star player in 1996, so there's no way we are letting his club into the league that I am on the board of.  At least not unless they can bring a lot of team$$$$ to pad our numbers.  And let's make sure their teams get placed in a bracket that makes them travel more."


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 21, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I am in this business because honestly I love soccer, my daughters are involved in the game, its a rather efficient job. I wanted to become a DOC simply because I enjoy it. Watching teams grow and coaches succeeding makes me happy. My screen name is no troll job and is my belief. People despise those in power sadly and will never understand which is why I started this thread.


See, here's the thing... if you really started this thread with the intention of having parents/forum members gain more understanding and thus appreciation for the job of a DOC, when you say things like "People despise those in power," you are ruining any chance at accomplishing your goal. Coming from someone who thinks they are in a position of power, that's a conceited, insulting, and somewhat paranoid thing to say.  If you actually are a DOC at a club with more than a few teams, especially if you charge good money for your fees, then I guarantee you that you have parents in your club who run businesses of their own, are high powered executives, or deal with plenty of people "in power."  The idea that these people resent you for it is laughable and stupid.  Do _some_ people resent others "in power?"  Sure, I guess.  But generally speaking, people don't mind those in positions of power as long as they get treated with respect.  And let's not get too carried away with your authoratay, Cartman.  You're a youth soccer coach, not Genghis Khan.  

I still don't think you are an actual DOC (because while most of them aren't particularly brilliant, they generally know there's nothing for their club to gain from these sorts of conversations with parents on an online forum).  But you are slowly convincing me, because not only are you a poor communicator, you also appear more obsessed with your position/"power" than is healthy, and you keep making these sweeping, broad generalities like "pay to play is good" or "your not good enough for college if your club isn't ECNL/DA" or "people despise those in power," which means you have a very poor grasp of complex subjects... and I have met some DOC's who fit that profile.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 21, 2022)

timbuck said:


> I'm not a DOC, but my impression is that the youth soccer landscape is so fragmented because of long standing grudges among adult men.
> "He stole my star player in 1996, so there's no way we are letting his club into the league that I am on the board of.  At least not unless they can bring a lot of team$$$$ to pad our numbers.  And let's make sure their teams get placed in a bracket that makes them travel more."


Adult ego is 100% holding us back.  

I sincerely doubt @paytoplayisgood is a real DoC, as no real DoC would come on here and say everything they have that ultimately highlights the downsides to pay-to-play.  Nonetheless, it's funny seeing all the similar questions/concerns y'all have.  For what it's worth I do know some really decent DoCs and coaches.  They exist.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Adult ego is 100% holding us back.
> 
> I sincerely doubt @paytoplayisgood is a real DoC, as no real DoC would come on here and say everything they have that ultimately highlights the downsides to pay-to-play.  Nonetheless, it's funny seeing all the similar questions/concerns y'all have.  For what it's worth I do know some really decent DoCs and coaches.  They exist.


????? I am being rather vague. Nothing I have said highlights the downsides to pay to play.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Adult ego is 100% holding us back.
> 
> I sincerely doubt @paytoplayisgood is a real DoC, as no real DoC would come on here and say everything they have that ultimately highlights the downsides to pay-to-play.  Nonetheless, it's funny seeing all the similar questions/concerns y'all have.  For what it's worth I do know some really decent DoCs and coaches.  They exist.


Yes, they do.  I hate to lump everyone into one bucket.  However, in a market as saturated as youth soccer in California (especially SoCal) they are in the minority.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 21, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> ????? I am being rather vague. Nothing I have said highlights the downsides to pay to play.


I would say 95% of what you've posted here and elsewhere on the forum is directly related to the bottom line.  One line you have "At younger age groups like anything under u16 we focus on development more" which I actually call BS on because if you're GA, you've got U13 - U15 to be concerned about standings wise.  But nonetheless, you are essentially highlighting what we all already know....it all comes down to money.  That means clubs make decisions based on financial gain/loss and not what's in the best interest of the kids and sport.  I just don't buy that any DoC would come on here preaching this and then suggest pay-to-play is a good thing.  I mean it is what it is and I don't know of a better alternative in our economic and youth sports systems.  I've yet to see anything that makes me go "Wow, pay-to-play is awesome".


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 21, 2022)

Mystery Train said:


> Yes, they do.  I hate to lump everyone into one bucket.  However, in a market as saturated as youth soccer in California (especially SoCal) they are in the minority.


As a clarification to the above:  

*Edit* I have seen plenty of DoC's and coaches who are "decent" as people, but maybe not so great at the job or required aspects of the job.  I have seen a number of coaches and DoC's that are neither decent people nor great at their jobs by my estimation.  Not a ton of them, but far more than I expected when my DD started her journey.  Those negative experiences generally outweigh a lot of the mild, semi-ok experiences, and they make the few really great experiences stand out as being a minority.  I do know the vast majority of adults who get into youth soccer as coaches, directors or referees, generally get into it because the genuinely love the game, just as the OP says.  But that doesn't guarantee a positive experience for the players and families, unfortunately.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 25, 2022)

"Director of Coaches"  - DOC.  
The few DOCs that I've come across don't seem to do much "directing of coaches."  
They are more of a a club admin role and check on the health/competitiveness/long term viability of a team.
Maybe some of the bigger clubs have actual coach trainings to try and get teams to have a similar look on the field.  But go watch 3 or 4 teams from the same club play during weekend.  Not many clubs have a true "club identity."


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 26, 2022)

timbuck said:


> "Director of Coaches"  - DOC.
> The few DOCs that I've come across don't seem to do much "directing of coaches."
> They are more of a a club admin role and check on the health/competitiveness/long term viability of a team.
> Maybe some of the bigger clubs have actual coach trainings to try and get teams to have a similar look on the field.  But go watch 3 or 4 teams from the same club play during weekend.  Not many clubs have a true "club identity."


I also think DoCs have to spend way too much time on crazy parents and all that noise.  My guess is DoCs really aren't paid enough to do what some of us wished they could focus on (coaching instruction/mentoring).


----------



## crush (Jul 26, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I also think DoCs have to spend way too much time on crazy parents and all that noise.  My guess is DoCs really aren't paid enough to do what some of us wished they could focus on (coaching instruction/mentoring).


The Doc I know makes a killing after all the goodies come in. Trust me NoCal, they work with parents who know how to pay to play this game and for this Doc, that's why pay to play is good for him. The pay is good and that's why so many hate me. I am for a good pay for a good day's work. What some us have experienced is insane because we didn't have the money to compete with the rich dads and that sucks.  Politics is also at play so you better do what they want you to do. Good luck to your player


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

crush said:


> The Doc I know makes a killing after all the goodies come in. Trust me NoCal, they work with parents who know how to pay to play this game and for this Doc, that's why pay to play is good for him. The pay is good and that's why so many hate me. I am for a good pay for a good day's work. What some us have experienced is insane because we didn't have the money to compete with the rich dads and that sucks.  Politics is also at play so you better do what they want you to do. Good luck to your player


So why don't you just go ahead and tell us exactly what each DOC at every ECNL club in SoCal makes?  I'm very interested in knowing exactly what each of these "corrupt" "fat cats" are "raking in".   Can you please also tell us exactly the right amount that a DOC should make?

BTW, and not to state the obvious, but perhaps the best way to better compete with people who have money, and to pay for what things cost, is to have a job.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jul 26, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> We have a separate staff member who controls our finances (CFO). I know roughly how things are done in our club. We budget fees/costs by looking at prior year profits. High profit year we don't change things. Low profit year we raise/lower costs based on some factors. We generally look at income vs expense overall for the club. But, we do keep metrics for team by team just incase we have an outlier.


There are no CFOs in soccer clubs.  No soccer club is going to look at a budget/cost based on prior year.


----------



## YourFather0 (Jul 27, 2022)

@paytoplayisgood I have heard families donating/sponsoring the club/team for their daughter to be on the top team, and guarantee X mins of play time. How true is this?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jul 27, 2022)

Keepermom2 said:


> There are no CFOs in soccer clubs.  No soccer club is going to look at a budget/cost based on prior year.


Yes there are people that perform tasks that a CFO would do. Maybe not a designated position though.


----------



## Lavey29 (Jul 31, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I tell my GA/DPL coaches to do whatever it takes to win games. No lying involved.



Although I doubt you are a DOC. This kind of direction is what's wrong with high level youth soccer. I think back to early last season when the coach of one of the big name clubs that rhymes with smurf had a parent call me and ask if I would allow my daughter to play in a big tournament under some other kids name as a younger player just so they could win. Uh F.......k NO...

Sounds like your philosophy and I'm sure the lying part is subjective as long as the wins pile up. Guess having kids with morals may become detrimental to youth soccer.


----------



## #girldad (Aug 6, 2022)

Lavey29 said:


> I think back to early last season when the coach of one of the big name clubs that rhymes with smurf had a parent call me and ask if I would allow my daughter to play in a big tournament under some other kids name as a younger player just so they could win. Uh F.......k NO...


I find this so hard to believe....Especially, in this small SOCAL soccer world we live in.


----------



## Lavey29 (Aug 6, 2022)

#girldad said:


> I find this so hard to believe....Especially, in this small SOCAL soccer world we live in.


Don't care if you believe it or not. Few years back while my kid was on another team, the coach for the other team snuck his college playing daughter into the game. Some players recognized her and of course forfeit and subsequent banning occurred. So while I don't believe it is prevalent,  I do believe cheating occurs in various methods.


----------



## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 7, 2022)

Lavey29 said:


> Don't care if you believe it or not. Few years back while my kid was on another team, the coach for the other team snuck his college playing daughter into the game. Some players recognized her and of course forfeit and subsequent banning occurred. So while I don't believe it is prevalent,  I do believe cheating occurs in various methods.


I know of someone who’s sons team lost in the round of 16 of State Cup and later showed up on another team in the Quarter Finals.  Kid was subsequently banned from the league for at least a season.   

It does happen.


----------



## Lavey29 (Aug 7, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> I know of someone who’s sons team lost in the round of 16 of State Cup and later showed up on another team in the Quarter Finals.  Kid was subsequently banned from the league for at least a season.
> 
> It does happen.


Thanks for commenting.  I don't think it's common but it does happen here and there and when the OP alleged DOC tells his coaches do anything you need to in order to win games that opens the door. He should tell his coaches to develop the players and develop the team chemistry and the wins will come.

I still highly doubt he is a DOC probably just trolling.


----------



## jojon (Aug 8, 2022)

I have difficulties understanding the logic of cheating to win in this youth soccer. There has to be a strong incentive to risk it.
1) Every players already paid their club fee and coaches are already paid their salary. Are the coaches really under that much pressure to win?
2) If DOC really pressures the coaches then he/she must have a reason also.
3) Do parents really want to join a winning club? If 80% of revenue comes from flight 1-3 parents, I think most of these parents do not even care about winning. They do care if the kids are not playing or not happy with the team/coach.
This is a "pay to play scheme" so I think it is not smart for a DOC to take actions based on the demand of 10% of the parents (top 10% players). I have a feeling clubs will be more financially successful if they pay more attention to the bottom 80% players.


----------



## crush (Aug 8, 2022)

jojon said:


> I have difficulties understanding the logic of cheating to win in this youth soccer. There has to be a strong incentive to risk it.
> 1) Every players already paid their club fee and coaches are already paid their salary. Are the coaches really under that much pressure to win?
> 2) If DOC really pressures the coaches then he/she must have a reason also.
> 3) Do parents really want to join a winning club? If 80% of revenue comes from flight 1-3 parents, I think most of these parents do not even care about winning. They do care if the kids are not playing or not happy with the team/coach.
> This is a "pay to play scheme" so I think it is not smart for a DOC to take actions based on the demand of 10% of the parents (top 10% players). I have a feeling clubs will be more financially successful if they pay more attention to the bottom 80% players.


Bonus $$$ to win tournaments and National Championships is a motive for some to cheat. No one cheats for free!!!


----------



## #girldad (Aug 16, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Hello. I am a DOC of a southwest girls soccer club. If you have any questions about how things work feel free to ask.


Is it true some clubs gave refunds when DA was canceled, while others did not? Since it was approximately mid-season when it was canceled...


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Aug 18, 2022)

#girldad said:


> Is it true some clubs gave refunds when DA was canceled, while others did not? Since it was approximately mid-season when it was canceled...


Varies from club to club but, most clubs gave a partial refund.


----------



## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

I’m reposting this here:
Hey Doc, I have a quick question. I’m trying to help my daughter achieve her dream of playing for the USWNT. I’ve heard rumors that serving on the Board of Directors (or coaching) of my local club would substantially increase my kids chance of being selected for YNT’s, is there any truth to this?


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> I’m reposting this here:
> Hey Doc, I have a quick question. I’m trying to help my daughter achieve her dream of playing for the USWNT. I’ve heard rumors that serving on the Board of Directors (or coaching) of my local club would substantially increase my kids chance of being selected for YNT’s, is there any truth to this?


Club directors, board members, coaches, can recommend a player to be selected for a USYNT training camp


----------



## Jamisfoes (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm very confused about the various leagues.
Is the socal soccer league the only league for Uyoungers? 
At what age do top teams start leaving socal soccer league and play in other letter leagues?


----------



## futboldad1 (Aug 26, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I'm very confused about the various leagues.
> Is the socal soccer league the only league for Uyoungers?
> At what age do top teams start leaving socal soccer league and play in other letter leagues?


ECNL begins at U13.... Socal leagues up to and including U12 are full strength, after that age group they still exist but are massively weakened......


----------



## Jamisfoes (Aug 26, 2022)

futboldad1 said:


> ECNL begins at U13.... Socal leagues up to and including U12 are full strength, after that age group they still exist but are massively weakened......


So is it safe to say that after U12, the fight 1 teams in u13 socal soccer league are actually flight 3 teams the year before?


----------



## Code (Aug 26, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> So is it safe to say that after U12, the fight 1 teams in u13 socal soccer league are actually flight 3 teams the year before?


For Clubs that have ECNL or GA teams, you will usually see them place their 3rd team in a Socal Flight 2 or 3 bracket once U13 starts.  For the Clubs that are not ECNL and GA, typically their Flight 1 teams are still performing as Flight 1.  Some ECNL clubs put their 3rd teams in NPL/Flight 1 last season.  For the majority that tried that it went bad for those teams; you can look through the results on Socal and see the how they faired.  As they get older the 3rd teams seem to either grow toward Flight 1 or disband.  Just to clairfy, when I say club, I am refering to a single site, not all the feeder associates and affiliates.


----------



## Jamisfoes (Aug 26, 2022)

Code said:


> For Clubs that have ECNL or GA teams, you will usually see them place their 3rd team in a Socal Flight 2 or 3 bracket once U13 starts.  For the Clubs that are not ECNL and GA, typically their Flight 1 teams are still performing as Flight 1.  Some ECNL clubs put their 3rd teams in NPL/Flight 1 last season.  For the majority that tried that it went bad for those teams; you can look through the results on Socal and see the how they faired.  As they get older the 3rd teams seem to either grow toward Flight 1 or disband.  Just to clairfy, when I say club, I am refering to a single site, not all the feeder associates and affiliates.


Thanks for the explanation. I wonder how long does it take for people to figure this out.  I know I was impressed that my club had all these flight 1 teams in the olders. Not impressed anymore.


----------



## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I'm very confused about the various leagues.
> Is the socal soccer league the only league for Uyoungers?
> At what age do top teams start leaving socal soccer league and play in other letter leagues?


Without making this into a debate about what's more "prestigious" (ECNL vs EA/MLS Next), the highest league for the boys in SoCal would be:
9 and younger - flight 1 SoCal League
10 and 11 - EA
12 years and up - MLS Next

Clubs choose ECNL path (Pats, Slammers) or EA/MLS Next path (TFA, City SC, Albion, Strikers, Liverpool, LAUFA).

It seems as though the most of the "big and best" clubs have chosen the EA/MLS Next path and since majority of the parents see it that way, it's become the de facto truth (and the fact that MLS Academies compete in MLS Next).

On the girls side, I think ECNL > GA but location/age could sway it the other way. In GENERAL though, if college soccer is the goal on the girls side, ECNL is very well tracked by college coaches and scouts and thus highest level girls play in ECNL.


----------



## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I wonder how long does it take for people to figure this out.  I know I was impressed that my club had all these flight 1 teams in the olders. Not impressed anymore.


Haha yea that's the reason why on some of these clubs you have flight 2 and 3 for the youngers and then have a bunch of flight 1 teams for the olders... because that flight 1 is essentially a flight 3 or flight 4 team... 
If you want your kid to play or at least try to play in the highest level and the current club doesn't offer EA/MLS Next/ECNL, you literally can't and have to find a club that offers that.


----------



## Grace T. (Oct 11, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Without making this into a debate about what's more "prestigious" (ECNL vs EA/MLS Next), the highest league for the boys in SoCal would be:
> 9 and younger - flight 1 SoCal League
> 10 and 11 - EA
> 12 years and up - MLS Next
> ...


The MLS Academies at the higher age levels actually just begin to compete against themselves in separate flights.  They'll do some games against the MLS Next cannon fodder, but in league they are segregating them out amongst themselves.  On the boys side, the MLS Academies are the true top flight...if you aren't playing for them, you aren't the top flight (even though there are teams out there that can give them a run for their money).  The girls don't have a true elite league compared to the MLS Academies.


----------



## Jamisfoes (Oct 11, 2022)

NCAA Division I men's Soccer teams have an average roster size of 29 players but only a maximum of 9.9 athletic scholarships to award per team.  When will people figure out that there is really no point to push soccer and spend all these money.


----------



## Jamisfoes (Oct 11, 2022)

The really talented kids play for free and get a full ride. The less talented kids whose parents have money play for the bragging rights. This pretty much sums it all up.


----------



## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 11, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The MLS Academies at the higher age levels actually just begin to compete against themselves in separate flights.  They'll do some games against the MLS Next cannon fodder, but in league they are segregating them out amongst themselves.  On the boys side, the MLS Academies are the true top flight...if you aren't playing for them, you aren't the top flight (even though there are teams out there that can give them a run for their money).  The girls don't have a true elite league compared to the MLS Academies.


Ah yes, that's true. I believe they created MLS Next Pro which will be a mix of MLS teams' 2nd teams and academy kids.

I guess at age 16 and up, there is no "top flight" anymore... the truly talented ones will be signing professional contracts and leave youth soccer. 

(Technically there is no age limit and we've been 14 year olds signed to MLS... starting with Freddy Adu back in the days to more recently Axel Kei and Maximo Carrizo...)


----------



## Grace T. (Oct 11, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Ah yes, that's true. I believe they created MLS Next Pro which will be a mix of MLS teams' 2nd teams and academy kids.


Yeah, it's funny....it means for the very oldest for the boys "flight 1" is actually flight 6.


----------



## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 11, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, it's funny....it means for the very oldest for the boys "flight 1" is actually flight 6.


Haha I think we can separate out the youth vs adult leagues and say it's flight 4 

What flight is my 40+ men's league on weekday nights??


----------

