# USWNT



## soccerobserver (Oct 20, 2016)

I skipped the Presidential "debate" and watched the USWNT defeat the Swiss National Team 4-0 ...seems like a lot of new new faces since the Olympics...I enjoyed watching them play.

Here is a link to the highlights:

http://www.espnfc.com/womens-international-friendly/70/video/2976821/highlights-united-states-4-0-switzerland


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## Mystery Train (Oct 20, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> I skipped the Presidential "debate" and watched the USWNT defeat the Swiss National Team 4-0 ...seems like a lot of new new faces since the Olympics...I enjoyed watching them play.


I can guarantee that it was a much better use of your time.


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## soccerobserver (Oct 20, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> I skipped the Presidential "debate" and watched the USWNT defeat the Swiss National Team 4-0 ...seems like a lot of new new faces since the Olympics...I enjoyed watching them play.
> 
> Here is a link to the highlights:
> 
> http://www.espnfc.com/womens-international-friendly/70/video/2976821/highlights-united-states-4-0-switzerland


Also great to see local-girl-made-good and ex-Slammer Christen Press scoring on this stage...


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 20, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> Also great to see local-girl-made-good and ex-Slammer Christen Press scoring on this stage...


I too, skipped the debate and watched the game.
What did you think of the other California prodigy making her USWNT debut?


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## soccerobserver (Oct 20, 2016)

The Bruin? I am happy for her but don't have an opinion worth anything. What did you think? There was also a Ute that debuted and the bio said she played for Legends FC even though I think she is from AZ. maybe you meant her? Not sure.


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## soccerobserver (Oct 20, 2016)

Bernie I had no ideas Williams was a Wave! What a fantastic achievement  scoring in the first 49 seconds of her debut with the USWNT!


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## pooka (Oct 21, 2016)

I will say that I was excited to see some diversity finally coming to the USWNT. Whether it will continue is another question, but glad to see more than the token black girl out there.


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## soccerobserver (Oct 21, 2016)

PK I hear you BUT may I suggest it is more of a Meritocracy finally emerging???


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## pooka (Oct 22, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> PK I hear you BUT may I suggest it is more of a Meritocracy finally emerging???


I would agree! And maybe someone not looking for a certain "type"?


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## pooka (Oct 22, 2016)

And @soccerobserver I loveeee Leslie Odom jr! I wanna be in the room where it happens too lol


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

pooka said:


> I will say that I was excited to see some diversity finally coming to the USWNT. Whether it will continue is another question, but glad to see more than the token black girl out there.


How about the best player regardless of race?


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> How about the best player regardless of race?


Lynn Williams is the perfect example of that.


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## KidGretzky25 (Oct 22, 2016)

Crystal Dunn is no token. She is and was better than all the usual suspects that started in front of her at the last World Cup


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## NoGoal (Oct 22, 2016)

KidGretzky25 said:


> Crystal Dunn is no token. She is and was better than all the usual suspects that started in front of her at the last World Cup


Dunn was snubbed a roster spot on last years World Cup team, in favor of over the hill players like Chalupny and Boxx.  I do agree she was one of the best players on the August US Womens Olympic team.


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## KidGretzky25 (Oct 22, 2016)

NoGoal said:


> Dunn was snubbed a roster spot on last years World Cup team, in favor of over the hill players like Chalupny and Boxx.  I do agree she was one of the best players on the August's Olympic team.


correction: Olympics....and yes snubbed at last year's World Cup


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## Glen (Oct 22, 2016)

Dunn is great, but she got injured in training in the build-up before the World Cup.  She wasn't snubbed.  Johnston took her roster spot and didn't let it go.  The biggest joke was that they were playing Dunn on defense (so was her pro team).

Soccer is one of the least diverse sports in the US.  It's worse than tennis and other rich kids sports.  Not sure why everyone is so shocked that our WNT looks like the Blues and Slammers rosters.  Shockingly (sarcasm), the US has managed to make one of the cheapest sports in the world an elitist hobby.

On a similar note, I wonder if basketball blogs are complaining about the lack of diversity on the US men's basketball team.  Just sayin.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 22, 2016)

Glen said:


> Dunn is great, but she got injured in training in the build-up before the World Cup.  She wasn't snubbed.  Johnston took her roster spot and didn't let it go.  The biggest joke was that they were playing Dunn on defense (so was her pro team).
> 
> Soccer is one of the least diverse sports in the US.  It's worse than tennis and other rich kids sports.  Not sure why everyone is so shocked that our WNT looks like the Blues and Slammers rosters.  Shockingly (sarcasm), the US has managed to make one of the cheapest sports in the world an elitist hobby.
> 
> On a similar note, I wonder if basketball blogs are complaining about the lack of diversity on the US men's basketball team.  Just sayin.


Revenue generating sports are a meritocracy NOW but make no mistake that was not always the case.  How many legitimate national champions were there prior to the civil rights movement?  How many World Series champions were legitimate prior to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier?  Make no mistake there were some immensely talented players that were excluded from most college and pro sports prior to that.

Unfortunately as long as women's soccer is not a revenue generating sport in a self sustaining way it is going to be dominated by those who are able to pay whether through parents, scholarship or benefactor.


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## Lorrenna Bobbitt (Oct 22, 2016)

MAP - the forum basket case, deplorable reverse racist.


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## NoGoal (Oct 22, 2016)

Glen said:


> Dunn is great, but she got injured in training in the build-up before the World Cup.  She wasn't snubbed.  Johnston took her roster spot and didn't let it go.  The biggest joke was that they were playing Dunn on defense (so was her pro team).
> 
> Soccer is one of the least diverse sports in the US.  It's worse than tennis and other rich kids sports.  Not sure why everyone is so shocked that our WNT looks like the Blues and Slammers rosters.  Shockingly (sarcasm), the US has managed to make one of the cheapest sports in the world an elitist hobby.
> 
> On a similar note, I wonder if basketball blogs are complaining about the lack of diversity on the US men's basketball team.  Just sayin.


Outside defender Lori Chalupny at age 31 made the team over Dunn.  If that isn't a snub I don't know what is.  BTW, Julie Johnston is a ctr defender.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

Glen said:


> Dunn is great, but she got injured in training in the build-up before the World Cup.  She wasn't snubbed.  Johnston took her roster spot and didn't let it go.  The biggest joke was that they were playing Dunn on defense (so was her pro team).
> 
> Soccer is one of the least diverse sports in the US.  It's worse than tennis and other rich kids sports.  Not sure why everyone is so shocked that our WNT looks like the Blues and Slammers rosters.  Shockingly (sarcasm), the US has managed to make one of the cheapest sports in the world an elitist hobby.
> 
> On a similar note, I wonder if basketball blogs are complaining about the lack of diversity on the US men's basketball team.  Just sayin.


Get over it.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

I dont know if Dunn offers what Morgan does.
Its apples and oranges.
On the other hand, Williams is better than both of them.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

MakeAPlay said:


> Revenue generating sports are a meritocracy NOW but make no mistake that was not always the case.  How many legitimate national champions were there prior to the civil rights movement?  How many World Series champions were legitimate prior to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier?  Make no mistake there were some immensely talented players that were excluded from most college and pro sports prior to that.
> 
> Unfortunately as long as women's soccer is not a revenue generating sport in a self sustaining way it is going to be dominated by those who are able to pay whether through parents, scholarship or benefactor.


Get over it.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

NoGoal said:


> Outside defender Lori Chalupny at age 31 made the team over Dunn.  If that isn't a snub I don't know what is.  BTW, Julie Johnston is a ctr defender.


Get over it.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

NoGoal said:


> Outside defender Lori Chalupny at age 31 made the team over Dunn.  If that isn't a snub I don't know what is.  BTW, Julie Johnston is a ctr defender.


Chalupny is not the player Dunn is.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

pooka said:


> I would agree! And maybe someone not looking for a certain "type"?


You must mean tall?


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

Lorrenna Bobbitt said:


> MAP - the forum basket case, deplorable reverse racist.


She is just too stupid to know it.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You must mean tall?


Or from one of the "feeder" schools, or YNT club.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> I dont know if Dunn offers what Morgan does.
> Its apples and oranges.
> On the other hand, Williams is better than both of them.


Williams is flat out faster than either one, and is technically in the same ballpark as Dunn, with a better shot.


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## soccerobserver (Oct 22, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> I dont know if Dunn offers what Morgan does.
> Its apples and oranges.
> On the other hand, Williams is better than both of them.


Bernie you had mentioned Williams previously so it is cool to see your predictions come true. Must also be gratifying that your Waves have some of the best in the nation. Very cool. I guess Williams came from a very modest soccer background etc so that's nice to see as well.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> Bernie you had mentioned Williams previously so it is cool to see your predictions come true. Must also be gratifying that your Waves have some of the best in the nation. Very cool assuming they overlapped. I guess Williams came from a very modest soccer background etc so that's nice to see as well.


My kid came in the year after Williams graduated.
Aside from the alumni game, they never shared the field.
It would have been cool if they did, but we have a new wave at Pepperdine, and they are busy writing their story.
Im a huge Lynn Williams fan, though.
I think she is a really a special player.

Im not alone.
Anyone who watched her play in college knows how special she is.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> Bernie you had mentioned Williams previously so it is cool to see your predictions come true. Must also be gratifying that your Waves have some of the best in the nation. Very cool. I guess Williams came from a very modest soccer background etc so that's nice to see as well.


I think she was overlooked as a soccer player by many of the big colleges.
She was a track star, but I guess she had a passion for soccer, and Pepperdine got the golden ticket.


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## soccerobserver (Oct 22, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> I think she was overlooked as a soccer player by many of the big colleges.
> She was a track star, but I guess she had a passion for soccer, and Pepperdine got the golden ticket.


I read she got 2 offers from Pepperdine and Fresno State. Apparently Pepperdine has an eye for talent !!!


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## soccerobserver (Oct 22, 2016)

I thought Ellis was experimenting w the roster. Anyone have any insight into who will be added  to the main roster for prime time ?? Seems like there is an over abundance of talented candidates.


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## Bernie Sanders (Oct 22, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> I read she got 2 offers from Pepperdine and Fresno State. Apparently Pepperdine has an eye for talent !!!


Really hard to believe when you see her now.
She is so talented.
She had all the tools, and developed into a great soccer player.
I dont think she's peaked yet.
She will keep getting better.


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## KidGretzky25 (Oct 22, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> Williams is flat out faster than either one, and is technically in the same ballpark as Dunn, with a better shot.


Yes, Williams is a baller. The type of player I hope the U.S. will add to the team.


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## Glen (Oct 22, 2016)

NoGoal said:


> Outside defender Lori Chalupny at age 31 made the team over Dunn.  If that isn't a snub I don't know what is.  BTW, Julie Johnston is a ctr defender.


What does Julie Johnston's position have to do with it?  She replaced Dunn on the roster, and Dunn couldn't get back in the mix before the World Cup.  http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2014/10/15/julie-johnston-crystal-dunn-uswnt-concacaf-roster .


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## pooka (Oct 22, 2016)

Been busy and missed the rest of y'all post. 

The lack of diversity on the men's basketball team was based on meritocracy, and who WANTED to go. Some folks turned it down. I'm sure if DIRK wanted to go he could. 

Feeder schools, feeder clubs, all of that. And yes my player is glad to see some other ladies out on the field that look like her. Just as was stated in another thread above, us soccer over looks a lot of talent if it doesn't fit into their "box" whatever that box is (school, club, eye color, whatever). Look at the young lady playing on the Ghana u17 team. 
Am I saying it's done intentionally? No. I'm saying I know more than ONE black or mixed heritage woman is good enough to be on the USWNT at a time. This is the first time I have ever seen more than one. This summer we got Mallory and crystal playing together. The other night we had Casey, crystal, and Lynn. It was a nice look. 
My opinion. You don't have to agree.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 22, 2016)

pooka said:


> Been busy and missed the rest of y'all post.
> 
> The lack of diversity on the men's basketball team was based on meritocracy, and who WANTED to go. Some folks turned it down. I'm sure if DIRK wanted to go he could.
> 
> ...


What will make you happy?


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## NoGoal (Oct 22, 2016)

Glen said:


> What does Julie Johnston's position have to do with it?  She replaced Dunn on the roster, and Dunn couldn't get back in the mix before the World Cup.  http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2014/10/15/julie-johnston-crystal-dunn-uswnt-concacaf-roster .


Rampone was coming back from injury prior to the world cup.  That is why they added Julie Johnson.  My point is Chalupny was picked over Dunn as a fullback, since Dunn was playing that position a year ago.


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## gkrent (Oct 22, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> I think she was overlooked as a soccer player by many of the big colleges.
> She was a track star, but I guess she had a passion for soccer, and Pepperdine got the golden ticket.


One of my players defended against Williams in college and stated she was a serious beast and was shocked she didn't have call ups yet....she feels vindicated now


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 27, 2017)

pooka said:


> Been busy and missed the rest of y'all post.
> 
> The lack of diversity on the men's basketball team was based on meritocracy, and who WANTED to go. Some folks turned it down. I'm sure if DIRK wanted to go he could.
> 
> ...


I agree.  You forgot Press her dad is half black.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 27, 2017)

Canada Soccer does it right

The Canadian soccer federation is at least 10x better than US soccer.  How do they continue to get it right with a 10th of our population and we can't figure it out?  They even get US colleges to help develop their players!


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## soccerobserver (Apr 5, 2017)

Looks as though the USWNT closed their deal on equal pay....from the NYT:

*"U.S. Women’s Soccer Team and U.S. Soccer Ratify New Labor Agreement*
"The deal, which was ratified by the players on Tuesday night in Dallas and by U.S. Soccer’s board in a conference call, includes a sizable increase in base pay and improved match bonuses for the women’s team, changes that could see some players double their incomes to between $200,000 and $300,000 in a given year — and even more in a World Cup year.

The agreement also includes sought-after changes to noneconomic issues like travel, accommodations and working conditions. The union also won control of some licensing and marketing rights from the federation, another potential source of revenue for the players."


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/sports/soccer/uswnt-us-soccer-labor-deal-contract.html?_r=0


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## bababooey (Apr 5, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> Looks as though the USWNT closed their deal on equal pay....from the NYT:
> 
> *"U.S. Women’s Soccer Team and U.S. Soccer Ratify New Labor Agreement*
> "The deal, which was ratified by the players on Tuesday night in Dallas and by U.S. Soccer’s board in a conference call, includes a sizable increase in base pay and improved match bonuses for the women’s team, changes that could see some players double their incomes to between $200,000 and $300,000 in a given year — and even more in a World Cup year.
> ...


Thanks for the update.

It's about damn time that the USWNT is treated the same as the USMNT in terms of pay and other non-economic issues. Let's be honest, the USWNT has been much better over the years than their male counterparts. If anything, the USMNT should be paid less.


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## soccerobserver (Apr 5, 2017)

Thanks Babab...It seems interesting the Players fired their chief negotiator a few days before the CBA expired in December Then the players shifted from "equal pay" to "fair and equitable" pay...now this issue is nicely settled past the next Womens WC...


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## NoGoal (Apr 5, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> Thanks Babab...It seems interesting the Players fired their chief negotiator a few days before the CBA expired in December Then the players shifted from "equal pay" to "fair and equitable" pay...now this issue is nicely settled past the next Womens WC...


It will be interesting to see if Mallory Pugh leaves UCLA early now with the increase in pay for WNT players.  Especially, since she is a sure lock for the 2019 WWC roster.


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## Legendary FC (Apr 5, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> It will be interesting to see if Mallory Pugh leaves UCLA early now with the increase in pay for WNT players.  Especially, since she is a sure lock for the 2019 WWC roster.


Won't happen.  The details have yet to be finalized and the only years that the US WNT makes good bonuses are World Cup and Olympic years.  Just take a glimpse at how the men are paid to get an idea of what they will get.  Also remember that they did not get equal pay and US Soccer pays the women's salaries not the men.  I think that a lot of the increase is for the veteran players and the fringe (occasional call up players) that play in the NWSL.  Here is a decent comparison.  

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/women-earn-the-glory-while-men-earn-the-money-in-u-s-soccer/

At the end of the day we will see.  There are only 2 games on the schedule after these two against Russia through July.  She definitely is not going to jump ship this year in order to play in the NWSL (she would have to wait until January anyway).

Here are some key lines:

The result of all those long days and late nights is the team’s new collective bargaining agreement with U.S. Soccer, which was announced on Wednesday morning. The agreement includes a sizable increase in base pay for the players — more than 30 percent, initially — and improved match bonuses that could double some of their incomes, to $200,000 to $300,000 in any given year, and even more in a year that includes a World Cup or Olympic campaign.

Yet while the women’s players can claim significant gains, including on noneconomic issues like travel and working conditions, the new deal does not guarantee them equal pay with the men’s national team, which the women had made the cornerstone of their campaign for much of the last year. For the union, that reality — a consequence of the teams’ different pay structures and an eight-figure gap in FIFA bonus payouts to U.S. Soccer for the men’s and women’s World Cup — was balanced by progress elsewhere. It is those changes, including control of some licensing and marketing rights, which the union views as an opening to test the team’s value on the open market, that the players and their lawyers feel could pay off in future negotiations.

“We tried to completely change the methodology for how to define our value, and we made progress in that regard, and it changes the equation for the future,” Becca Roux, the union’s executive director, said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/sports/soccer/uswnt-us-soccer-labor-deal-contract.html?_r=0


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## Legendary FC (Apr 5, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> It will be interesting to see if Mallory Pugh leaves UCLA early now with the increase in pay for WNT players.  Especially, since she is a sure lock for the 2019 WWC roster.


The agreement is actually very insidious on US Soccer's side.  If they don't win the WWC in 2019 or the Olympics in 2020 they are going to be in a weak negotiating position.


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## JJP (Apr 5, 2017)

bababooey said:


> It's about damn time that the USWNT is treated the same as the USMNT in terms of pay and other non-economic issues. Let's be honest, the USWNT has been much better over the years than their male counterparts. If anything, the USMNT should be paid less.


That's ridiculous re equal pay.

Women's soccer generates nowhere near the amount of revenue as men's soccer.  The men are paid more because they generate way, way, way more revenue.

2014 men's World Cup generated $4.8 billion, 2015 women's World Cup revenue numbers are not out yet, but in 2011 women's World Cup generated $78 million.  So let's say 2015 women's World Cup generated $100 million.

Sports is an eat what you kill business.  The women should be paid out of their $100 million pie, men paid out of their $4.8 billion pie.  Given the huge revenue generation difference, the men should be paid more, and there's nothing unfair about it.


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## younothat (Apr 6, 2017)

Dallas FC under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage
http://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

"Of course, this match against the academy team was very informal and should not be a major cause for alarm. The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia."


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## NoGoal (Apr 6, 2017)

About 11 yrs ago a U16 WCFC National Cup Championship team (prior to Boys DA) also beat the US WNT.  I recall the score was something like 2-0.


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> That's ridiculous re equal pay.
> 
> Women's soccer generates nowhere near the amount of revenue as men's soccer.  The men are paid more because they generate way, way, way more revenue.
> 
> ...


We are talking about the US Women's team and not the rest of the world. Using World Cup numbers do not apply under this conversation. If we were talking about the game globally you certainly have a case. And, I would hope that US Soccer would do the right thing. They can't keep expecting the US Women to maintain  their competitive level without some financial benefits. Here are some numbers when you compare the US Men to the US Women.

"The gap between projected revenue — $23 million for the USWNT and $21 million for the USMNT — in 2016 stands at $2 million, but, as demonstrated by the revenue detail, the USWNT’s revenue is set to nearly double what the USMNT will haul in ($17 million to $9 million) in 2017."


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## espola (Apr 6, 2017)

bababooey said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> It's about damn time that the USWNT is treated the same as the USMNT in terms of pay and other non-economic issues. Let's be honest, the USWNT has been much better over the years than their male counterparts. If anything, the USMNT should be paid less.


"Better" in the sense of results in the women's soccer world.  They regularly get beat by mid-teens boys ODP teams.


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## pulguita (Apr 6, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> About 11 yrs ago a U16 WCFC National Cup Championship team (prior to Boys DA) also beat the US WNT.  I recall the score was something like 2-0.


Since most of the posters I know have daughters playing I also have a 2002 son playing Tier 1.  Not academy but I will say this, at 15 -16 there is no hope for the women keeping up with the men at this age and beyond.  Watching the highest level women's game compared to some of the top 2002, 2001 boys teams play is painful.  At this age the boys are quicker, faster, stronger and yes bigger.  Most of the quality teams paint the field and have great soccer IQ.


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## espola (Apr 6, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> About 11 yrs ago a U16 WCFC National Cup Championship team (prior to Boys DA) also beat the US WNT.  I recall the score was something like 2-0.


In Spring 2009 - Cal South 1992 boys ODP team 5-0 USWNT.


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## outside! (Apr 6, 2017)

espola said:


> "Better" in the sense of results in the women's soccer world.  They regularly get beat by mid-teens boys ODP teams.


Are you trying to say males are better at most sports than females? Is it also true that teenage sprinters are faster than masters age sprinters? I fail to see how that has anything to do with anything regarding this discussion. Men and women are different. Comparing women to men athletically is just silly.


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## Legendary FC (Apr 6, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We are talking about the US Women's team and not the rest of the world. Using World Cup numbers do not apply under this conversation. If we were talking about the game globally you certainly have a case. And, I would hope that US Soccer would do the right thing. They can't keep expecting the US Women to maintain  their competitive level without some financial benefits. Here are some numbers when you compare the US Men to the US Women.
> 
> "The gap between projected revenue — $23 million for the USWNT and $21 million for the USMNT — in 2016 stands at $2 million, but, as demonstrated by the revenue detail, the USWNT’s revenue is set to nearly double what the USMNT will haul in ($17 million to $9 million) in 2017."


The US men didn't make the Olympics and that is part of the difference.  You have to compare World Cup year revenues.  I believe if you do that the numbers are much different.


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 6, 2017)

Legendary FC said:


> The US men didn't make the Olympics and that is part of the difference.  You have to compare World Cup year revenues.  I believe if you do that the numbers are much different.


With the US Men not qualifying for Olympics only strengthens the argument. So, lets use the WC revenue. If we compare the two teams the US women (and not talking about any other women's national team) still made more money with less money coming into the Women's WC overall than the US Men's. The point is this, if US Soccer wants to continue to have a strong women's program they will have to pay the women more at some time.


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## bababooey (Apr 6, 2017)

espola said:


> "Better" in the sense of results in the women's soccer world.  They regularly get beat by mid-teens boys ODP teams.


Come on Espola......did you really think I was comparing the men's team with the women's team on the same pitch? We know what would happen if these two teams played one another.

My point is that the USWNT results (against other women's teams to help you) have been much more impressive than our USMNT.


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## NoGoal (Apr 6, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Since most of the posters I know have daughters playing I also have a 2002 son playing Tier 1.  Not academy but I will say this, at 15 -16 there is no hope for the women keeping up with the men at this age and beyond.  Watching the highest level women's game compared to some of the top 2002, 2001 boys teams play is painful.  At this age the boys are quicker, faster, stronger and yes bigger.  Most of the quality teams paint the field and have great soccer IQ.


I agree my son back in the day was on a Silver Elite team and his coach also had a Gold team.  I recall their scrimmages and how much faster and athletic the boys were.  At U15 girls generally get slower, but the boys get faster.


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## JJP (Apr 6, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We are talking about the US Women's team and not the rest of the world. Using World Cup numbers do not apply under this conversation. If we were talking about the game globally you certainly have a case.


What?  How does World Cup numbers not apply?  The World Cup (men's World Cup) is the single biggest sporting event in the world and draws more viewers and more eyeballs, thus generating huge advertising revenues and tv broadcast rights fees, than any sport in the world.  It's the single biggest income generator for the men's team.  What you are saying, disregard men's World Cup revenue to determine what male and female players should be paid, is completely senseless.  That's like saying let's calculate Bill Gates wealth without his Microsoft stock.

In a World Cup year, the men's team generates so much more revenue, there is no comparison with the women.  Comparing revenue in 2015 is misleading and cherry picking because that's a women's World Cup year and the men are missing World Cup revenue.  The fairest way to compare revenue is to average revenue for a four year period, so both men and women get their big income generators factored in.

I'm just really flabbergasted at the absurd and pervasive PC bullshit that even makes this a conversation.  Except maybe figure skating or gymnastics, there is no women's sport that brings in the tv viewership or ticket sales anywhere close to the comparable men's sport.  Men's soccer generates hundreds of billions, women's soccer generates maybe in the hundreds of millions, and that's a stretch  Your pay is based in large part on the revenue you generate.  The women generate a lot, lot, lot less revenue.  Therefore, they should not be paid equal to men who generate way more revenue.

I'm pretty sure that the women are in fact grossly overpaid compared to the amount of revenue they generate.  I was actually shocked to learn that women's team members got a salary paid regardless of whether they played or won a game in international competition, and the salary is not bad.  It's pretty much a guarantee that the men's World Cup revenue is subsidizing every other team including the women's team and the youth teams.



> And, I would hope that US Soccer would do the right thing. They can't keep expecting the US Women to maintain  their competitive level without some financial benefits. Here are some numbers when you compare the US Men to the US Women.
> 
> "The gap between projected revenue — $23 million for the USWNT and $21 million for the USMNT — in 2016 stands at $2 million, but, as demonstrated by the revenue detail, the USWNT’s revenue is set to nearly double what the USMNT will haul in ($17 million to $9 million) in 2017."


Again you're cherry picking numbers by not including World Cup revenue, Gold Cup revenue.  You should google this.  There's plenty of analysis out there showing how much more revenue the men's team generates.  My point is, why do you even need that analysis?  It's just so obvious there's no money in women's team sports.


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## outside! (Apr 6, 2017)

There is no arguing that the men's World Cup generates more revenue than the women's  World Cup. The USMNT is not the reason for that extra revenue however. The reason for that revenue is all the people around the world that tune in to see the World Cup. Only a small portion of those people tune in to see the USMNT. If you are talking revenue to US Soccer for World Cup appearances, the men's team does generate more revenue, since FIFA pays more money to men's teams. Are you saying that we should let FIFA dictate what is fair payment for the US National Teams? The US National teams are made up of players that have benefited from facilities and infrastructure paid for by ALL US taxpayers.

I would argue that the USWNT has done more to grow the sport of soccer in the United States than the USMNT. Providing equal opportunities for girls and women in soccer in the United States will help men's soccer in the United States much more than compensating the USMNT at a level higher than the USWNT. This is also about more than compensation for the USWNT. It is also about fair treatment when it comes to facilities, fields, airline flights, hotels, etc. The single best thing we can do to make the United States a world soccer power is to increase the popularity of soccer in the United States. Treating more than half the population of the country unfairly does not make much sense if you want girls to grow up to be fans of the game.


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> What?  How does World Cup numbers not apply?  The World Cup (men's World Cup) is the single biggest sporting event in the world and draws more viewers and more eyeballs, thus generating huge advertising revenues and tv broadcast rights fees, than any sport in the world.  It's the single biggest income generator for the men's team.  What you are saying, disregard men's World Cup revenue to determine what male and female players should be paid, is completely senseless.  That's like saying let's calculate Bill Gates wealth without his Microsoft stock.
> 
> In a World Cup year, the men's team generates so much more revenue, there is no comparison with the women.  Comparing revenue in 2015 is misleading and cherry picking because that's a women's World Cup year and the men are missing World Cup revenue.  The fairest way to compare revenue is to average revenue for a four year period, so both men and women get their big income generators factored in.
> 
> ...


This is conversation is about US Women making more money. And is not solely specific to the money any world cup generates. The money the US Women generate overall is enough money to earn more. 

If the 4 year period is used then I will agree that the US Men have generated more money from 2013-2016, but from 2014-2017 that gap is small and still does not inhibit the women from making more.  Both these dates include world cup years. And, no cherry picking that is why I included the 2017 revenue (a non-world cup year).

The governing bodies in both figure skating and gymnastics acknowledge that the women in these two sports generate more money and are more successful than the men. Yet, these organizations find it necessary to pay each (men and women) the same in salary/incentives. Yes, of course men’s soccer generates more money, but again you’re talking about it globally. I am only referring to two teams who are under the same umbrella and paid by them. And, the money the women generate is more than enough to earn more.

Both the men and women are required to play a specific number of games each year. And they are identical in number which was 20 the last few years. For the US Women to get a salary they would have to play all 20 games, which of course does not happen. Otherwise they get paid much like the men per game and no salary. Per your 4 year period suggestion the US Women are paying their way.

It appears your point is that women’s sport in general does not generate monies, which is fine, in most cases that could be true. But, it does not mean they cannot earn a fair and legal amount, especially if what they are generating says otherwise.


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 6, 2017)

outside! said:


> There is no arguing that the men's World Cup generates more revenue than the women's  World Cup. The USMNT is not the reason for that extra revenue however. The reason for that revenue is all the people around the world that tune in to see the World Cup. Only a small portion of those people tune in to see the USMNT. If you are talking revenue to US Soccer for World Cup appearances, the men's team does generate more revenue, since FIFA pays more money to men's teams. Are you saying that we should let FIFA dictate what is fair payment for the US National Teams? The US National teams are made up of players that have benefited from facilities and infrastructure paid for by ALL US taxpayers.
> 
> I would argue that the USWNT has done more to grow the sport of soccer in the United States than the USMNT. Providing equal opportunities for girls and women in soccer in the United States will help men's soccer in the United States much more than compensating the USMNT at a level higher than the USWNT. This is also about more than compensation for the USWNT. It is also about fair treatment when it comes to facilities, fields, airline flights, hotels, etc. The single best thing we can do to make the United States a world soccer power is to increase the popularity of soccer in the United States. Treating more than half the population of the country unfairly does not make much sense if you want girls to grow up to be fans of the game.


Good Stuff! Well said.


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## soccerobserver (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> What?  How does World Cup numbers not apply?  The World Cup (men's World Cup) is the single biggest sporting event in the world and draws more viewers and more eyeballs, thus generating huge advertising revenues and tv broadcast rights fees, than any sport in the world.  It's the single biggest income generator for the men's team.  What you are saying, disregard men's World Cup revenue to determine what male and female players should be paid, is completely senseless.  That's like saying let's calculate Bill Gates wealth without his Microsoft stock.
> 
> In a World Cup year, the men's team generates so much more revenue, there is no comparison with the women.  Comparing revenue in 2015 is misleading and cherry picking because that's a women's World Cup year and the men are missing World Cup revenue.  The fairest way to compare revenue is to average revenue for a four year period, so both men and women get their big income generators factored in.
> 
> ...


JJ, I think the USWNT players did shift from where they started. In December They fired the head negotiator who has struck the more strident tone and who was demanding "equal pay". They shifted from asking for "equal" pay to asking for "fair and equitable " pay. I am not a labor lawyer but I believe the shift in emphasis acknowledges the differences in circumstances between the men and women's revenues and support. There were also Non monetary issues that were addressed that seemed important to the players.


----------



## Legendary FC (Apr 6, 2017)

outside! said:


> There is no arguing that the men's World Cup generates more revenue than the women's  World Cup. The USMNT is not the reason for that extra revenue however. The reason for that revenue is all the people around the world that tune in to see the World Cup. Only a small portion of those people tune in to see the USMNT. If you are talking revenue to US Soccer for World Cup appearances, the men's team does generate more revenue, since FIFA pays more money to men's teams. Are you saying that we should let FIFA dictate what is fair payment for the US National Teams? The US National teams are made up of players that have benefited from facilities and infrastructure paid for by ALL US taxpayers.
> 
> I would argue that the USWNT has done more to grow the sport of soccer in the United States than the USMNT. Providing equal opportunities for girls and women in soccer in the United States will help men's soccer in the United States much more than compensating the USMNT at a level higher than the USWNT. This is also about more than compensation for the USWNT. It is also about fair treatment when it comes to facilities, fields, airline flights, hotels, etc. The single best thing we can do to make the United States a world soccer power is to increase the popularity of soccer in the United States. Treating more than half the population of the country unfairly does not make much sense if you want girls to grow up to be fans of the game.


I think what everyone is missing about this discussion is that it doesn't elevate pay for women in the NWSL (the real crime) which causes the need to pay the women more.  The men on the national team are employed by their clubs.  There is no expectation that the majority of their compensation is going to come from the federation.  If US Soccer wanted to really improve the overall pool, pump those earnings into the league that they created and subsidized and insure that our extremely large player pool doesn't have talented players retire a year or two out of college because they can earn a great wage elsewhere.  The new agreement just perpetuates the same old girls club.


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## LASTMAN14 (Apr 6, 2017)

Legendary FC said:


> I think what everyone is missing about this discussion is that it doesn't elevate pay for women in the NWSL (the real crime) which causes the need to pay the women more.  The men on the national team are employed by their clubs.  There is no expectation that the majority of their compensation is going to come from the federation.  If US Soccer wanted to really improve the overall pool, pump those earnings into the league that they created and subsidized and insure that our extremely large player pool doesn't have talented players retire a year or two out of college because they can earn a great wage elsewhere.  The new agreement just perpetuates the same old girls club.


Yes, there are many issues on the women's side that need to be answered in order to continue to maintain and further elevate the game.


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## JJP (Apr 6, 2017)

outside! said:


> There is no arguing that the men's World Cup generates more revenue than the women's  World Cup. The USMNT is not the reason for that extra revenue however. The reason for that revenue is all the people around the world that tune in to see the World Cup. Only a small portion of those people tune in to see the USMNT. If you are talking revenue to US Soccer for World Cup appearances, the men's team does generate more revenue, since FIFA pays more money to men's teams. Are you saying that we should let FIFA dictate what is fair payment for the US National Teams? The US National teams are made up of players that have benefited from facilities and infrastructure paid for by ALL US taxpayers.


You are making points that have no meaning.  FIFA pays each men's team a minimum of $8 million for being in the World Cup.  Each round of progression brings more money.  When you say the USMNT is not the reason for the extra revenue, what does that even mean?  I haven't seen any analysis that says Germany accounts for 13% of the revenue, Brazil 15%, etc.  How would you even allocate revenue generated by the World Cup to different teams?  The relevant analysis is how much did USMNT get for playing in the World Cup, and in 2014 that was $9 million.

When you say, "should we let FIFA dictate what is fair payment?", again that's a meaningless question.  Both USMNT and USWNT are paid based on their collective bargaining agreements with USSF.  FIFA has nothing to do with those collective bargaining agreements.  Each national soccer federation that sends a team to the World Cup receives payment from FIFA based on how the team performs out of a prize fund negotiated by the various federations and FIFA.  That prize fund is determined largely by how much the TV rights can be sold for and the negotiating skills of FIFA vs the various federations.

So when you say we shouldn't let FIFA dictate what is fair, I honestly have no idea what your point is.



> I would argue that the USWNT has done more to grow the sport of soccer in the United States than the USMNT. Providing equal opportunities for girls and women in soccer in the United States will help men's soccer in the United States much more than compensating the USMNT at a level higher than the USWNT.


I'm sure the USWNT has done more to grow soccer among girls.

Your statement "providing equal opportunities for girls soccer will help men's soccer" is your opinion, and may not be true.  The growth of girls soccer due to Title 9 has wrecked men's sports in college, except for football and basketball, so I think you can validly argue the growth of girl's soccer has hurt men's soccer, at least at the college level.  TBH, I don't know the answer to the question of whether growing women's sports helps men's sport.  Certainly I have nothing against the growth of the women's game, and I hope the USWNT grows and makes more money and the best female players can get rich off the sport.



> This is also about more than compensation for the USWNT. It is also about fair treatment when it comes to facilities, fields, airline flights, hotels, etc. The single best thing we can do to make the United States a world soccer power is to increase the popularity of soccer in the United States. Treating more than half the population of the country unfairly does not make much sense if you want girls to grow up to be fans of the game.


And what is unfair about what the women are being paid?  It's what they bargained for, and from the links I've read that actually analyze the revenue and numbers, the women are overpaid relative to the revenue they generate.  I guess you are trying to say that the women should be overpaid even more relative to revenue they generated in order for it to be fair, but that would mean making less money available to the men, who are actually the profit center.

How is that fair to the men?   And what does fair even mean in a fight for money?  Everybody will fight to get more than their fair share and then justify it with whatever point they can make.


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## JJP (Apr 6, 2017)

Legendary FC said:


> I think what everyone is missing about this discussion is that it doesn't elevate pay for women in the NWSL (the real crime) which causes the need to pay the women more.  The men on the national team are employed by their clubs.  There is no expectation that the majority of their compensation is going to come from the federation.  If US Soccer wanted to really improve the overall pool, pump those earnings into the league that they created and subsidized and insure that our extremely large player pool doesn't have talented players retire a year or two out of college because they can earn a great wage elsewhere.  The new agreement just perpetuates the same old girls club.


You know, there's an easy solution, and it doesn't involve negotiation.  There are a lot of female soccer players.  They should buy tickets to NWSL games and watch it whenever it's on TV to drive up ratings and ad revenues.


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## NoGoal (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> You know, there's an easy solution, and it doesn't involve negotiation.  There are a lot of female soccer players.  They should buy tickets to NWSL games and watch it whenever it's on TV to drive up ratings and ad revenues.


What channel are NWSL games on?  Do you mean buy NWSL tickets as in paying for it and not being mandated to go by their club teams to watch a game?  That is a hard sell outside of little soccer girls and their parents.


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## outside! (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> I'm sure the USWNT has done more to grow soccer among girls.


I am pretty sure the boys are not going to grow up and produce little soccer players by themselves. Girls soccer players now, mean more women that will sign their children up for soccer in the future and more women soccer fans.



JJP said:


> The growth of girls soccer due to Title 9 has wrecked men's sports in college, except for football and basketball, so I think you can validly argue the growth of girl's soccer has hurt men's soccer, at least at the college level.


No, Title IX has ensured that our tax dollars support both genders equally. Since women are 50.8% of our population, that seems fair. College football sucks up most of the money on the men's side, even though the majority of college football teams do not produce revenue for their colleges.


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## LadiesMan217 (Apr 6, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> What channel are NWSL games on?  Do you mean buy NWSL tickets as in paying for it and not being mandated to go by their club teams to watch a game?  That is a hard sell outside of little soccer girls and their parents.


Hey! I paid $15 for parking....


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## JJP (Apr 6, 2017)

outside! said:


> No, Title IX has ensured that our tax dollars support both genders equally. Since women are 50.8% of our population, that seems fair. College football sucks up most of the money on the men's side, even though the majority of college football teams do not produce revenue for their colleges.


Give me a break.  Division 1 college football coaches and basketball coaches get multi-million dollar contracts.  You think taxpayers are funding that?  During NCAA March Madness, the whole country is watching and gambling on men's college basketball.  Do you have any idea how much hundreds of millions of dollars colleges earn from that one tournament?  I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money, but the schools making money off of sports are doing it off men's football and basketball.

The reality is that men's college football and basketball are the revenue generators that fund all the other sports, both men and women.  I'm not here to debate title 9, whether it's good or bad.  I know mothers with sons who hate Title 9 and men with daughters who love title 9.  My point on title 9 is that the growth of women's soccer has not helped men's soccer at the college level, because colleges only have so much money to throw at non-revenue generating sports, and soccer does not make money for colleges.  When schools fund women's sports, they cut non-revenue generating men's sports to meet title 9 requirements and balance the budget.

This is pretty much acknowledged as fact, and a google search will turn up loads of scholarly articles confirming this.  It's pretty easy to figure out once you know that men's football and basketball fund all other sports, and schools have to dish out 97 girls scholarships (to make up the 85 for football and 12 for men's basketball) before they can give out even one more scholarship for men's soccer.

I'm not here to bash on women's sports.  I think it's great that girls are playing and being active and competing.  I just think this "we're all in this together" and "helping girls will help the boys too" is BS.  There are a lot of circumstances where it's a zero-sum game, especially when money is involved, and we all have to realize that putting more money into women's sports comes with the cost of less money for men's sports.


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## NoGoal (Apr 6, 2017)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Hey! I paid $15 for parking....


$15?  I guess someone has to pay for the Legends wrapped Mercedes golf cart.


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## NoGoal (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> Give me a break.  Division 1 college football coaches and basketball coaches get multi-million dollar contracts.  You think taxpayers are funding that?  During NCAA March Madness, the whole country is watching and gambling on men's college basketball.  Do you have any idea how much hundreds of millions of dollars colleges earn from that one tournament?  I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money, but the schools making money off of sports are doing it off men's football and basketball.
> 
> The reality is that men's college football and basketball are the revenue generators that fund all the other sports, both men and women.  I'm not here to debate title 9, whether it's good or bad.  I know mothers with sons who hate Title 9 and men with daughters who love title 9.  My point on title 9 is that the growth of women's soccer has not helped men's soccer at the college level, because colleges only have so much money to throw at non-revenue generating sports, and soccer does not make money for colleges.  When schools fund women's sports, they cut non-revenue generating men's sports to meet title 9 requirements and balance the budget.
> 
> ...


I want to go on record and officially thank Title IX and NCAA college football and basketball for my DDs womens college scholarship.


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## espola (Apr 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> Give me a break.  Division 1 college football coaches and basketball coaches get multi-million dollar contracts.  You think taxpayers are funding that?  During NCAA March Madness, the whole country is watching and gambling on men's college basketball.  Do you have any idea how much hundreds of millions of dollars colleges earn from that one tournament?  I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money, but the schools making money off of sports are doing it off men's football and basketball.
> 
> The reality is that men's college football and basketball are the revenue generators that fund all the other sports, both men and women.  I'm not here to debate title 9, whether it's good or bad.  I know mothers with sons who hate Title 9 and men with daughters who love title 9.  My point on title 9 is that the growth of women's soccer has not helped men's soccer at the college level, because colleges only have so much money to throw at non-revenue generating sports, and soccer does not make money for colleges.  When schools fund women's sports, they cut non-revenue generating men's sports to meet title 9 requirements and balance the budget.
> 
> ...


Most of the schools in the big 5 conferences turn a profit on football and/or basketball.  Most of the others need funding from student fees or the universities (that would be taxpayers if they are a public school) to stay afloat.

You can google loads of scholarly articles confirming this.


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## JJP (Apr 7, 2017)

espola said:


> Most of the schools in the big 5 conferences turn a profit on football and/or basketball.  Most of the others need funding from student fees or the universities (that would be taxpayers if they are a public school) to stay afloat.


So what?  Doesn't matter to my basic point that in college, growing women's soccer doesn't help men's soccer.

Title 9 just depends on two factors.  1) schools have to give out equal numbers of men and women scholarships and 2) does the school have a big time men's football and basketball program to fund other sports.

If the school does have a big time football and basketball program, they can fund fully 97 women's scholarships.

If the school doesn't have a profitable football program, they give out fewer than 85 football scholarships, or even cut football altogether, so they can then give out fewer women's scholarships to save money.  I've never heard of a school cutting basketball because it's a cheap sport.

Either way, there's a limited pot of money and a limited number of scholarships and it's a zero sum situation where growing any woman's sport has the opportunity cost of limiting scholarships for men's sports.  So growing women's soccer, at the college level, does not help men's college soccer.

Again, I'm not here to criticize Title 9.  It's here to stay.  I only brought it up because several people have made the argument that putting more money into the women's game will ultimately grow the men's game too.  That may be true overall, but it's just not true at the college level.

And I don't necessarily agree that giving women pros more money will grow the game either.  I've never made any soccer decision based on what the USSF paid national team members, I've never heard a kid say I don't want to play because I'll be underpaid when I make the national team.

To me, this is just a fight over how to split the pie and nothing more.


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## espola (Apr 7, 2017)

JJP said:


> So what?  Doesn't matter to my basic point that in college, growing women's soccer doesn't help men's soccer.
> 
> Title 9 just depends on two factors.  1) schools have to give out equal numbers of men and women scholarships and 2) does the school have a big time men's football and basketball program to fund other sports.
> 
> ...


"I'm not here to criticize Title 9".  That's pretty funny.

Title IX doesn't require any institution to provide equal numbers of scholarships for men and women.  If it did, no school would have a football team. ("In 2013-14, NCAA member schools fielded an average of 430 *student*-*athletes*, including 243 *males* and 187 *females*." -- NCAA,  Oct 15, 2014)  It only has to provide an equivalent and proportional opportunity for men and women to participate in similar activities.  "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."  Policy decisions by the Department of Education and settlements to lawsuits over the years have added more details, but the general idea is still the same.  In the case of soccer (which should be our primary concern here) the men and women's programs at any institution that offers both usually are remarkably similar in funding, structure, and operation - it's the simplest way to show equal treatment.

NCAA FAQ on the matter -- http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how


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## NoGoal (Apr 7, 2017)

JJP said:


> So what?


I think E was pointing out not all men's football and basketball teams are profitable based on your rebutal below.



			
				JJP said:
			
		

> The reality is that men's college football and basketball are the revenue generators that fund all the other sports, both men and women.


Now you posted this below, which includes an if and big time. Much different than your post above.



			
				JJP said:
			
		

> If the school does have a big time football and basketball program, they can fund fully 97 women's scholarships.





			
				JPP said:
			
		

> I've never heard of a school cutting basketball because it's a cheap sport.


How is basketball a cheap sport?  Do they not pay thier college coaches? The team doesn't get athletic trainers? The school doesn't allow the basketball players to use the gym and sports facilities? They travel in yellow school buses? Please explain how basketball is cheaper than other sports at a college university.


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## Glen (Apr 7, 2017)

Interesting revenue/expense numbers from 2015:  http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/


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## JJP (Apr 7, 2017)

JJP said:


> I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money, but the schools making money off of sports are doing it off men's football and basketball.





NoGoal said:


> I think E was pointing out not all men's football and basketball teams are profitable based on your rebutal below.
> 
> Now you posted this below, which includes an if and big time. Much different than your post above.


You're right.  I also said in my post "I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money [referring to the oodles of cash March Madness generates]" but it's a vague and admittedly lazy way to avoid the complexities of Title 9.  I know not every school has a $65 million budget for football like Penn State, and there are a few non-football, non-men's basketball sports that make money, but I just simplified things to make it easier to discuss.  In practice, it's pretty much 1 male:1 female ratio of scholarships given out, yeah it's not always like that, but it's close enough for discussion purposes on this board. And schools giving full rides are generally spending money from the men's football and basketball gravy train, schools not on that gravy train usually offer partial scholarships and financial aid.  Again, I know there are exceptions but it's close enough for discussion purposes.



> How is basketball a cheap sport?  Do they not pay thier college coaches? The team doesn't get athletic trainers? The school doesn't allow the basketball players to use the gym and sports facilities? They travel in yellow school buses? Please explain how basketball is cheaper than other sports at a college university.


First, basketball is one of the few sports that generates money, even for schools that don't have a big time program.  Second, the team is small, you can only roster 12 per game so you save money on travel and hotels, and you don't have to offer a lot of scholarships compared to football. Third, every school has a basketball gym that can be used for both men and women, the equipment can be used for men and women, all of the facilities can be used for men and women, so Title 9 compliance is cheap with basketball.  Fourth, there are not that many coaches for basketball, especially compared to football.  If you are an AD on a tight budget, you can get away with one coach for men's team, one coach for women's team.  And fifth, if you need another women's team to get in compliance with title 9, you can throw in a girls volleyball team into that gym for relatively cheap.

A lot of schools that can't make money off football have cut their football program for budgetary reasons.  The sport has expensive equipment that can't be shared with other sports, expensive insurance, you need to offer a lot of scholarships to compete, you have to pay a lot of coaches, the stadium is not ideal for other sports, and then you have to fund a bunch of different women's teams to comply with title 9.


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## gkrent (Apr 7, 2017)

JJP said:


> I've never heard a kid say I don't want to play because I'll be underpaid when I make the national team.


I have heard this and I've also heard "There's no money in this unless I become so big I get endorsements".  I've also heard "I'm not gonna slag it out on a pro team making peanuts just for the love of the game".


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## NoGoal (Apr 7, 2017)

JJP said:


> You're right.  I also said in my post "I'm not saying every school gets that kind of money [referring to the oodles of cash March Madness generates]" but it's a vague and admittedly lazy way to avoid the complexities of Title 9.  I know not every school has a $65 million budget for football like Penn State, and there are a few non-football, non-men's basketball sports that make money, but I just simplified things to make it easier to discuss.  In practice, it's pretty much 1 male:1 female ratio of scholarships given out, yeah it's not always like that, but it's close enough for discussion purposes on this board. And schools giving full rides are generally spending money from the men's football and basketball gravy train, schools not on that gravy train usually offer partial scholarships and financial aid.  Again, I know there are exceptions but it's close enough for discussion purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I posted the reply, because I knew you would spend time writing a dissertation.   Catch and release!


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## soccerobserver (Apr 7, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> I posted the reply, because I knew you would spend time writing a dissertation.   Catch and release!


JJP has skills...


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## Glen (Apr 13, 2017)

espola said:


> "I'm not here to criticize Title 9".  That's pretty funny.
> 
> Title IX doesn't require any institution to provide equal numbers of scholarships for men and women.  If it did, no school would have a football team. ("In 2013-14, NCAA member schools fielded an average of 430 *student*-*athletes*, including 243 *males* and 187 *females*." -- NCAA,  Oct 15, 2014)  It only has to provide an equivalent and proportional opportunity for men and women to participate in similar activities.  "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."  Policy decisions by the Department of Education and settlements to lawsuits over the years have added more details, but the general idea is still the same.  In the case of soccer (which should be our primary concern here) the men and women's programs at any institution that offers both usually are remarkably similar in funding, structure, and operation - it's the simplest way to show equal treatment.
> 
> NCAA FAQ on the matter -- http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how


This is misleading.  The standard under Title IX is proportional participation opportunities, but the way one determines whether proportional opportunities are provided by a school is based on actual participation.  If actual participation is not roughly proportional to student population, I don't think there is a school that has proven that it provided proportional opportunities.  

You should also be looking at each school, not national averages.  For instance, the Naval Academy is 75 percent male, so they just need to provide women 25 percent of the opportunities.  Obviously, nothing about proportionality would preclude the Naval Academy from having a football team.



JJP said:


> It's pretty easy to figure out once you know that men's football and basketball fund all other sports, and schools have to dish out 97 girls scholarships (to make up the 85 for football and 12 for men's basketball) before they can give out even one more scholarship for men's soccer.


I don't think this is correct either.  The NCAA determines the number of scholarships per sport.  It's not like a school without a football team can redeploy the scholarships to other, cheaper, sports.  The men's teams are stuck with the limited numbers regardless.  It really should be changed, and it's more a problem with the NCAA then it is with Title IX.  If certain schools want to put all their eggs in the football basket, let them.  But that shouldn't prevent non-football schools from freely placing their scholarships into other men's sports.  

I've always thought men from non-football sports/schools should sue under the right circumstances.  It seems like a clear equal protection clause violation for a school to only provide 9 men's soccer scholarships vs. 14 for women.  Since the school wouldn't be able to point to football as a basis for the difference, the school would have a hard time defending the difference.


----------



## JJP (Apr 14, 2017)

Thanks for the post Glen, it's a frigin complicated topic that gives me a headache, I know I have a simplified understanding of it.

But back to the topic of what to pay USWNT, I actually have no issues with what the women are being paid after their latest negotiation.  The fact of the matter is that the men's World Cup generates more than enough money to fund the men's team, women's team and youth teams, if FIFA didn't take such a huge, absurd cut of the profits.

Think about it.  Total prize money for men's World Cup was $576 million and each of the 32 teams paid a $1.5 million participation fee (totaling $48 million) so net prize money was $528 million.  Yet FIFA earned $4.8 billion off the World Cup, so FIFA holds on to slightly less than $4.3 billion, absolutely ridiculous.

In my next life I pray I get born as a FIFA official.  It'd be so awesome leaching billions of dollars every four years off of the skills and hard work of players who have more talent in their pinky toe than I do in my whole body.


----------



## younothat (Apr 17, 2017)

Mal Pugh Departs UCLA to Turn Pro
http://www.uclabruins.com/news/2017/4/17/womens-soccer-mal-pugh-departs-ucla-to-turn-pro.aspx

No surprise w/ the deal, she wasn't there long, 3 spring games.   Looking at going  overseas: https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/04/17/mallory-pugh-ucla-womens-soccer-turning-pro-nwsl


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 17, 2017)

younothat said:


> Mal Pugh Departs UCLA to Turn Pro
> http://www.uclabruins.com/news/2017/4/17/womens-soccer-mal-pugh-departs-ucla-to-turn-pro.aspx
> 
> No surprise w/ the deal, she wasn't there long, 3 spring games.   Looking at going  overseas: https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/04/17/mallory-pugh-ucla-womens-soccer-turning-pro-nwsl


That and along with the new US WNT player deal.


----------



## espola (Apr 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> That and along with the new US WNT player deal.


If she continues to play well and keeps her looks her endorsement money will make her salary insignificant.


----------



## outside! (Apr 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> That and along with the new US WNT player deal.


It is nice to see that being a pro soccer player is actually possible for women. A few years ago it was not possible. For most D1 players, college is still the best place to be, but it is still nice to see more opportunities for women players. I wish her the best of luck.


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 17, 2017)

outside! said:


> It is nice to see that being a pro soccer player is actually possible for women. A few years ago it was not possible. For most D1 players, college is still the best place to be, but it is still nice to see more opportunities for women players. I wish her the best of luck.


To bad the deal was only for the US WNT players and not for the rank and file NWSL players.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> To bad the deal was only for the US WNT players and not for the rank and file NWSL players.


I saw this in some other thread.  "US soccer should put the DA money into the  NWSL instead of a female development academy.   They could use the money to pay salaries to make being a female pro a viable career."   This would make the women's national team stronger than scouting the 15 years olds that they can already scout in ecnl and college.


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 17, 2017)

timbuck said:


> I saw this in some other thread.  "US soccer should put the DA money into the  NWSL instead of a female development academy.   They could use the money to pay salaries to make being a female pro a viable career."   This would make the women's national team stronger than scouting the 15 years olds that they can already scout in ecnl and college.


To bad the MLS teams don't partner and back the NWSL teams.  Similar to the European leagues financially supporting their women clubs or the NBA with the WNBA.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

espola said:


> If she continues to play well and keeps her looks her endorsement money will make her salary insignificant.


Maybe down the line but as of right now nobody is lining up to throw money at a sport that is on TV a few times a year.  Not to mention that she will have to find some place to play.  Unless US Soccer pulls some sort of power move she won't be in the NWSL.  Good luck to her.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Maybe down the line but as of right now nobody is lining up to throw money at a sport that is on TV a few times a year.  Not to mention that she will have to find some place to play.  Unless US Soccer pulls some sort of power move she won't be in the NWSL.  Good luck to her.


So, what's the deal or opportunity that she could not pass up?  The articles don't really speak to this.


----------



## outside! (Apr 18, 2017)

I think she will go play in Europe for at least a year.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> So, what's the deal or opportunity that she could not pass up?  The articles don't really speak to this.


As a Tier 1 player with US Soccer she stands to at least make $100k from them plus whatever she gets from a pro contract which will likely be another $100k if she plays abroad.  I heard that she has a meeting with Nike and Adidas which could gross her another $250k-$500k a year ($1-2 million dollar deal for 4 years through the Olympics).  Being US Soccer's shiny new toy is an opportunity.  Weird for a federation to encourage somebody to leave college.  At least in the NBA it's the greedy owners and not USA Basketball that is trying to exploit the teenagers.  Probably has something to do with there being no full time coach for USA Basketball.  The coaches have to get a real job and earn real results not wins against Albania and Russia.  Good luck to her she has to strike while the iron is hot.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

outside! said:


> I think she will go play in Europe for at least a year.


Depends upon whether US Soccer can force the Washington Spirit to deal her rights to Portland or somewhere domestically that she wants to play.  In terms of development Europe is probably a better play but if she inks a deal with Nike or Adidas they might force her to play stateside.  How else can they hope to shill soccer stuff to little girls if they can't see her play regularly and the US is definitely the largest market for selling girls soccer related apparel.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 18, 2017)

Maybe US soccer isn't too concerned about players being roll models as far as education is concerned, just soccer in general, something to consider in choosing DA.
I wonder if she comes from money or modest means?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Maybe US soccer isn't too concerned about players being roll models as far as education is concerned, just soccer in general, something to consider in choosing DA.
> I wonder if she comes from money or modest means?


Her father is a business owner so no she isn't broke.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Maybe US soccer isn't too concerned about players being roll models as far as education is concerned, just soccer in general, something to consider in choosing DA.
> I wonder if she comes from money or modest means?


US Soccer not being concerned about that should be a concern for us.  This is America right?


----------



## outside! (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> US Soccer not being concerned about that should be a concern for us.  This is America right?


Concerned about what? You have raised some good points but I don't understand this last post.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

outside! said:


> Concerned about what? You have raised some good points but I don't understand this last post.


I quote @Sheriff Joe and his statement about US soccer not caring about players being role models.  That is a concern.  Even the NFL in its eternal greed cares about players being role models.  For a federation not to care says a lot about where we are as a country or at least where the federation is.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

I think that it is the right decision for her given the circumstances and what I know.  There is a lot of non public information on this FYI.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I quote @Sheriff Joe and his statement about US soccer not caring about players being role models.  That is a concern.  Even the NFL in its eternal greed cares about players being role models.  For a federation not to care says a lot about where we are as a country or at least where the federation is.


I know there are rules about leaving college early for the pros in other sports but not sure where soccer fits in there, maybe that would push her overseas?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I know there are rules about leaving college early for the pros in other sports but not sure where soccer fits in there, maybe that would push her overseas?


It is uncharted territory.  NFL requires a player be two years removed from their High School graduation before being drafted.  The NBA requires one year removed from high school.  Tennis has no such rule nor does BMX, Motorcross, skateboarding or snowboarding.  I am not against it.  I just think that the federation shouldn't be pushing it.  Basically the economics in all of the other sports exist without US government support.  In women's soccer that is not the case.  We might as well be in China where the government picks most of the winners.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 18, 2017)

Was she being pulled in too many directions as a national team player, college player and college student?  
One of them probably had to give.  And if she gave up the national team, there's no guaranteee she gets asked back in 3.5 years once she graduates. 
She can always go back to school. If I were her, I'd negotiate a life time college education into my Nike contract.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

timbuck said:


> Was she being pulled in too many directions as a national team player, college player and college student?
> One of them probably had to give.  And if she gave up the national team, there's no guaranteee she gets asked back in 3.5 years once she graduates.
> She can always go back to school. If I were her, I'd negotiate a life time college education into my Nike contract.


Her particular college is the real deal and requires a great deal of time and commitment.  Lot's of accommodations were made.  Good luck to her in the future.


----------



## soccerobserver (Apr 18, 2017)

Seems like Pugh is following the advice of famous writer Mark Twain who said he:
"never let schooling get in the way of education"


----------



## socalkdg (Apr 18, 2017)

Based on the numbers being thrown around, and if she does get a 250K minimum deal with Nike or Adidas, then we are looking at 400K per year over the next 4 years minimum.   Defer some for school in the future.   Misty Copeland makes less than 100K per year dancing in ballet, but her deals outside of dance triples that number.  The same could happen for Pugh.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 18, 2017)

Does she have the personality to be marketable?
(I have seen her play, but haven't heard her speak). 
Several women's players make big money from endorsements. 
Alex Morgan makes the big bucks because she is good at soccer, is easy on the eyes and has a personality that clicks with most people. 
Abby made money because she was a physical beast. 
Carli Lloyd lit the World Cup on fire and became a household name. 
Hope Solo is a very polarizing person.  In addition to being the best in the world, she's attractive and vocal.  And controversial. 
Tobin Heath will be one of the next stars to cash in on endorsements. 

But the rest of the roster, you don't hear much about.  They are earning a decent living off of their uswnt salary, but once their career is over, they'll be coaching soccer for the next 40 years.


----------



## pulguita (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> US Soccer not being concerned about that should be a concern for us.  This is America right?


That's pretty obvious when they had freshman miss their 1st half year of school for a U20 World Cup in BFE that means nothing in the real scheme of things.  Only a handful of that group have any chance of making the full team.


----------



## pulguita (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Her particular college is the real deal and requires a great deal of time and commitment.  Lot's of accommodations were made.  Good luck to her in the future.


Yes the school is the real deal and it is very challenging being a D1 athlete at a powerhouse and managing school at a top academic institution.  Being home schooled and not a particularly strong student I am going out on a limb in saying someone might find the environment too much next fall.


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 18, 2017)

pulguita said:


> That's pretty obvious when they had freshman miss their 1st half year of school for a U20 World Cup in BFE that means nothing in the real scheme of things.  Only a handful of that group have any chance of making the full team.


All the US WNT coaches are concerned about is keeping their jobs, "NOT" what is best for the player.  I know BJ Snow told his age group that US Soccer highly recommends home schooling, because they will miss a lot of classes.  I know of only 1 player from SoCal who elected home school.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Yes the school is the real deal and it is very challenging being a D1 athlete at a powerhouse and managing school at a top academic institution.  Being home schooled and not a particularly strong student I am going out on a limb in saying someone might find the environment too much next fall.



You are right too often for me to ignore.  I hope that the person that you are referencing doesn't sink...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 18, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> All the US WNT coaches are concerned about is keeping their jobs, "NOT" what is best for the player.  I know BJ Snow told his age group that US Soccer highly recommends home schooling, because they will miss a lot of classes.  I know of only 1 player from SoCal who elected home school.


And like I said to @pulguita I hope that she doesn't sink.


----------



## pulguita (Apr 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> And like I said to @pulguita I hope that she doesn't sink.


I have heard there are attitude issues also.  We have one coming in a year with some attitude issues also.  Maybe they are bred at one particular SoCal club?  NoGoal any insight?


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 18, 2017)

pulguita said:


> I have heard there are attitude issues also.  We have one coming in a year with some attitude issues also.  Maybe they are bred at one particular SoCal club?  NoGoal any insight?


I would like to speak to an attorney first.


----------



## Glen (Apr 18, 2017)

Is there any concern about conflicts that US Soccer may have with Nike?  If MP signs some huge deal Nike, I could see pressure applied on US Soccer to make sure she plays.  And while the girl is great, I'm not sure she is a starter (yet) on a fully loaded WNT.  The one thing the US is not short on is talented attacking players.


----------



## NoGoal (Apr 18, 2017)

Glen said:


> Is there any concern about conflicts that US Soccer may have with Nike?  If MP signs some huge deal Nike, I could see pressure applied on US Soccer to make sure she plays.  And while the girl is great, I'm not sure she is a starter (yet) on a fully loaded WNT.  The one thing the US is not short on is talented attacking players.


Womens WC is 2 yrs away.  By then she will be a legit starting forward for the team and Alex Morgan and Christine Press will almost be 30.  IMO, Dunn and Pugh would be my starting outside forwards. Question I have is who will be the target center forward?


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 19, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Womens WC is 2 yrs away.  By then she will be a legit starting forward for the team and Alex Morgan and Christine Press will almost be 30.  IMO, Dunn and Pugh would be my starting outside forwards. Question I have is who will be the target center forward?


I agree with that. Dunn just needs to learn how to stay on-side.  But man! What a dynamic pair that would be.


----------



## socalkdg (Apr 19, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> I agree with that. Dunn just needs to learn how to stay on-side.  But man! What a dynamic pair that would be.


Makes it tough to try and teach your kid to stay on side when the very best can't even do it.  Couldn't believe how often she was off side.  

Been playing some friendly's with just a center referee.  Makes you appreciate the job's the AR does calling offside.   He'd be watching the area around the ball.   Pass would be made, he'd see a girl getting the pass behind the last defender and would call offside.   About 3/4 of the time they were on side at time of pass, but the referee couldn't see it well enough to make a proper call.


----------



## socalkdg (Apr 19, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> I agree with that. Dunn just needs to learn how to stay on-side.  But man! What a dynamic pair that would be.


Makes it tough to try and teach your kid to stay on side when the very best can't even do it.  Couldn't believe how often she was off side.   

Been playing some friendly's with just a center referee.  Makes you appreciate the job's the AR does calling offside.   He'd be watching around the ball.   Pass would be made, he'd see a girl getting the pass behind the last defender and would call offside.   About 3/4 of the time they were on side at time of pass, but the referee couldn't see it well enough to make a proper call.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 19, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Makes it tough to try and teach your kid to stay on side when the very best can't even do it.  Couldn't believe how often she was off side.
> 
> Been playing some friendly's with just a center referee.  Makes you appreciate the job's the AR does calling offside.   He'd be watching around the ball.   Pass would be made, he'd see a girl getting the pass behind the last defender and would call offside.   About 3/4 of the time they were on side at time of pass, but the referee couldn't see it well enough to make a proper call.


Hahaha, I bet.  Luckily mine are not forwards. But, a couple on one of my kids team gets called every game, multiple times.  Frustrating as hell.  The last couple USWNT games Dunn was hard to watch.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 19, 2017)

Speaking of those games, what the heck is the deal with Long?  If we don't have someone better than her on the roster, we're in bad shape.  Her game is weak and slow.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 19, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> Speaking of those games, what the heck is the deal with Long?  If we don't have someone better than her on the roster, we're in bad shape.  Her game is weak and slow.


Ellis loves her.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Apr 19, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Ellis loves her.


That's obvious. I just don't get it.  Hell, yours can out play her right now! I'm not kidding, either.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 19, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> That's obvious. I just don't get it.  Hell, yours can out play her right now! I'm not kidding, either.


The other thing that she has going for her is she can score with her head.  You know how US Soccer loves that.  I believe that every goal that she has score for the US has been on a header.  Since Abby left they "need" a target for crosses in the box.


----------



## outside! (Apr 19, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> The other thing that she has going for her is she can score with her head.  You know how US Soccer loves that.  I believe that every goal that she has score for the US has been on a header.  Since Abby left they "need" a target for crosses in the box.


While she needs to work on using her left foot.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 19, 2017)

outside! said:


> While she needs to work on using her left foot.


Not to mention her PK shooting...


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## Sheriff Joe (Apr 19, 2017)

outside! said:


> While she needs to work on using her left foot.


How common is it that a player at the upper college level can use her off foot comfortably?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 19, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> How common is it that a player at the upper college level can use her off foot comfortably?


It depends upon the team.  On the best teams I would say 25-35%.  It only goes down from there.  However, we are talking about a 29 year old  USWNT midfield player.  This should not be her issue.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 19, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> It depends upon the team.  On the best teams I would say 25-35%.  It only goes down from there.  However, we are talking about a 29 year old  USWNT midfield player.  This should not be her issue.


Cool.


----------



## Soccer123 (Apr 20, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> How common is it that a player at the upper college level can use her off foot comfortably?


I would hope ALL players would be able to at this level. I blame the coaches!  Nothing worse than currently watching Ecnl, Odp, Us Training, future Da players play with 1 foot and can't use their off foot.  Why isn't more emphasis put on this?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 20, 2017)

Soccer123 said:


> I would hope ALL players would be able to at this level. I blame the coaches!  Nothing worse than currently watching Ecnl, Odp, Us Training, future Da players play with 1 foot and can't use their off foot.  Why isn't more emphasis put on this?


That would require a coach that cares about his players improvement and isn't afraid to give a star player the business.  One of the things that I liked the most about the coach that was primarily responsible for my player's development was that he had no problem critiquing what she was doing wrong.  The conversations that he had with her on the sidelines, during the game and at training were never about what she did well.  It was always about how to strengthen her weaknesses and how to elevate her game.  I appreciated it and so did she.  There wasn't any value in her being told how good she was at something.  What she cared about and what we cared about is what she could improve upon to be ready for the next level on day one.  Playing with your weak foot was a part of that.


----------



## Soccer123 (Apr 20, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> That would require a coach that cares about his players improvement and isn't afraid to give a star player the business.  One of the things that I liked the most about the coach that was primarily responsible for my player's development was that he had no problem critiquing what she was doing wrong.  The conversations that he had with her on the sidelines, during the game and at training were never about what she did well.  It was always about how to strengthen her weaknesses and how to elevate her game.  I appreciated it and so did she.  There wasn't any value in her being told how good she was at something.  What she cared about and what we cared about is what she could improve upon to be ready for the next level on day one.  Playing with your weak foot was a part of that.


Love to hear about your experience! I wish more coaches were like this. Unfortunately, they are not. I can think of many professional players that can only use 1 foot. So embarrassing to watch.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 20, 2017)

Soccer123 said:


> Love to hear about your experience! I wish more coaches were like this. Unfortunately, they are not. I can think of many professional players that can only use 1 foot. So embarrassing to watch.


My player was very lucky.  She had a great coach.  He coaches boys academy and a high school team now.  I loved how he believed in my kid as much as we did and refused to let her put anything other than her best foot forward.  I hope that your player is as fortunate.  Good luck to you and your player.


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Apr 20, 2017)

Soccer123 said:


> Love to hear about your experience! I wish more coaches were like this. Unfortunately, they are not. I can think of many professional players that can only use 1 foot. So embarrassing to watch.


Robben only uses his left foot 90% of the time and they still cant stop him.
Everyone knows he's cutting back to his left foot, but he still beats them. He's getting old now, but the guy did it for years.
The guy has always amazed me, how he does it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 20, 2017)

Bernie Sanders said:


> Robben only uses his left foot 90% of the time and they still cant stop him.
> Everyone knows he's cutting back to his left foot, but he still beats them. He's getting old now, but the guy did it for years.
> The guy has always amazed me, how he does it.


I guess it works in the NBA too.  Still I can only imagine what would be said if the Patriots could only run the ball left because that was the only way their star running back could go.  That would be weird..


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Apr 20, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I guess it works in the NBA too.  Still I can only imagine what would be said if the Patriots could only run the ball left because that was the only way their star running back could go.  That would be weird..


Totally different.
Robben runs right all the time, he just always cuts back to his left to shoot.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 20, 2017)

Soccer123 said:


> I would hope ALL players would be able to at this level. I blame the coaches!  Nothing worse than currently watching Ecnl, Odp, Us Training, future Da players play with 1 foot and can't use their off foot.  Why isn't more emphasis put on this?


My daughter just did it on her own, more of a challenge to herself. Watching a player doing left footed drills with the right is pretty funny.


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Apr 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My daughter just did it on her own, more of a challenge to herself. Watching a player doing left footed drills with the right is pretty funny.


Going left is good in soccer, and surfing. Just not good for governments.

Signed, ..-Venezuela-


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 21, 2017)

Bernie Sanders said:


> Going left is good in soccer, and surfing. Just not good for governments.
> 
> Signed, ..-Venezuela-


Come on Bernie that is beyond left.  That is so far left that it is right wing.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 24, 2017)

via Imgflip Meme Generator


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 14, 2017)

I'm starting to think that Crystal Dunn is going to have to play wide back at some point.  O'Hara and Short leave a lot to be desired.  Klingenberg is losing a step.  We have quite a few options in the attack but we are extremely low on world class wing backs.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jun 14, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I'm starting to think that Crystal Dunn is going to have to play wide back at some point.  O'Hara and Short leave a lot to be desired.  Klingenberg is losing a step.  We have quite a few options in the attack but we are extremely low on world class wing backs.


I agree.  Not a big fan of O'Hara, and Short just seems "serviceable", with no wow factor.  I think Dunn as a Wingback is a great idea. She can't seem to learn how to stay onside.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2017)

I watches Sundays game last night and was rather disappointed, especially with the passing, passing to the wrong side and passing to someone who was closely covered. Touches weren't the best either.


----------



## NoGoal (Jun 15, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I watches Sundays game last night and was rather disappointed, especially with the passing, passing to the wrong side and passing to someone who was closely covered. Touches weren't the best either.


Welcome to the world of athletic, defensive and direct soccer.


----------



## PLSAP (Jun 15, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> Short just seems "serviceable"


Short really hasn't done anything real great at all. I may be mistaken, but I haven't really seen her push up because she is at that RB spot and should be, at times, joining the attack. I feel like I've seen her win the ball by getting out of bounds but not really make good plays with it if it stays in. I completely agree with you, she has no wow factor


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Welcome to the world of athletic, defensive and direct soccer.


 They sure don't play out of the back.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 15, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Short really hasn't done anything real great at all. I may be mistaken, but I haven't really seen her push up because she is at that RB spot and should be, at times, joining the attack. I feel like I've seen her win the ball by getting out of bounds but not really make good plays with it if it stays in. I completely agree with you, she has no wow factor


Short has been playing left back and has been extremely underwhelming at it.  Norway and Sweden exposed her weaknesses.


----------



## outside! (Jun 15, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Short has been playing left back and has been extremely underwhelming at it.  Norway and Sweden exposed her weaknesses.


I wonder what position she played in club?


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jun 15, 2017)

outside! said:


> I wonder what position she played in club?


I think it was outside back. Not certain


----------



## outside! (Jun 15, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> I think it was outside back. Not certain


I was just wondering if she was a forward converted to defense.


----------



## pulguita (Jun 15, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> via Imgflip Meme Generator





MakeAPlay said:


> via Imgflip Meme Generator


Dude what a riot!  With the talent she has and no clue how to play attractive attacking soccer she just needs to go.  Just keep recycling the same crap - definition of insanity.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 15, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> I think it was outside back. Not certain


For Florida St. she played centerback and outside back.  For her current club she plays leftback and centerback.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 15, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Dude what a riot!  With the talent she has and no clue how to play attractive attacking soccer she just needs to go.  Just keep recycling the same crap - definition of insanity.


She is succeeding in assisting the rest of the world in catching up with us.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 15, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I'm starting to think that Crystal Dunn is going to have to play wide back at some point.  O'Hara and Short leave a lot to be desired.  Klingenberg is losing a step.  We have quite a few options in the attack but we are extremely low on world class wing backs.


Which would help her stay on side for once.   Man, it seems every game she forgets where she is supposed to be.  Is she not paying attention?


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Jun 15, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> She is succeeding in assisting the rest of the world in catching up with us.


I think some of the "rest" have already caught up.


----------



## NoGoal (Jun 16, 2017)

To shine a light on US Soccer WNT coaches selection.  I happened to play a youtube video of Beast Mode Soccer.  This video is 5 yrs old, in the video shows 2 Sr WNT team players; Christine Press and Whitney Engen.  Whitney is no longer on the Sr team as of 1-2 years ago.  What I find amazing, is how average Christine Press skills are and horrible Whitney Engen's is.  The best 2 players in the video are Ali Reilly who plays for New Zealand after never getting a call up to the US WNT.  DiMartino has a good touch as well, but never called into the Sr team too.  I am not sure if Di Martino still plays for the NWSL though.  Shows what type of players the YNT head coaches prefer.

Skip to minute 1:45 and you will see Christine Press on the right side.  I am not impressed with her on the ball skills. 






Skip to minute 1:50 to pass the intro and promotional talk.  Whitney Engen can't even juggle a soccer ball!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 16, 2017)

NG, that is interesting for sure...the tape is not lying...but what do you make of the fact that she won the Herman Award in college and still is the all time leading  scorer in the history of Stanford and was Rookie of the year in one of the women's leagues???...Maybe these drills are not capturing the whole picture...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 16, 2017)

Interesting article ranking the USWNT strikers...interesting comments they rank CP as the second best striker on the team...and others as well...

Here is the link:    http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/gallery/uswnt-striker-depth-chart-ranking-forward-pool-alex-morgan-christen-press-nwsl-analysis-060817


----------



## NoGoal (Jun 16, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> NG, that is interesting for sure...the tape is not lying...but what do you make of the fact that she won the Herman Award in college and still is the all time leading  scorer in the history of Stanford and was Rookie of the year in one of the women's leagues???...Maybe these drills are not capturing the whole picture...


IDK what to make of it.  I thought Press was more technical than that and left dumbfounded.  My guess is she is more athletic than I thought she was.

Now I see why the US WNT can't play possession attacking soccer.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> IDK what to make of it.  I thought Press was more technical than that and left dumbfounded.  My guess is she is more athletic than I thought she was.
> 
> Now I see why the US WNT can't play possession attacking soccer.


Press has nifty tricks for sure but what does she do in games against top level defenders?  To me that is what defines a great striker.


----------



## PLSAP (Jun 19, 2017)

Maybe (actually I am pretty sure) her touch has evolved tremendously over the past 4-5 years.  I would definitely say she is one of the least athletic players on a team that defines its style of play as athletic though. 






@ 1:05 was one of her best goals IMO even given that it was against a low, low level team. 

With Whitney Engen, well she was never really a star/large/big time player for the team, even though she was in the pool a very long time. 

But back to Press, to me, she's always seemed like an on or off player, kind of like how one could say about Carli Lloyd. She has her big moments (for Carli, it was the WWC for Press it's smaller big moments big goals creative moves etc) and then it seems like other times she's barely impacted the game or even worse shouldn't be in the game. I think the latter applies more so to current Carli Lloyd IMHO and previous Christen Press because I'm starting to see a better and better Press who's more consistent and simply better all round in her creativity, playing with her back to goal, etc. In fact, I would say, and even before she started noticeably improving IMO, that she tries to make up for her lack in physical ability in technical prowess, however, especially before, there is only so much she can do without being more athletic, and I think that's why she's had such a difficult time beating the other USWNT strikers for starting spots and time.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 19, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Maybe (actually I am pretty sure) her touch has evolved tremendously over the past 4-5 years.  I would definitely say she is one of the least athletic players on a team that defines its style of play as athletic though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PSP, Those were some
Spectacular goals thanks for posting !


----------



## NoGoal (Jun 19, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Maybe (actually I am pretty sure) her touch has evolved tremendously over the past 4-5 years.  I would definitely say she is one of the least athletic players on a team that defines its style of play as athletic though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Being a great ball striker doesn't mean she is technically great.  Sure she could have improved her skills the last 4-5 years, but she was already in her early 20s.  Meaning she isn't a natural with the ball.  I relate it to golf, being great ball striker with your driver and iron play, doesn't mean your great around the greens or putting.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2017)

RIP Tony Dicicco.  He was a good one....


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> RIP Tony Dicicco.  He was a good one....


He may have been the right person at the right time. He will be missed.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 16, 2017)

China is now beating our YNT.
http://sports.qq.com/kbsweb/kbsshare/game.htm?mid=100002:15181

1st half and 2nd half game are located on the bottom of the page.  Click and scroll back up to play. A new window will not open.


----------



## Bad Hombre (Jul 17, 2017)

Bigger, faster, stronger...Isn't that why the Asian teams have closed the gap? Oh yeah, that's American soccer.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> China is now beating our YNT.
> http://sports.qq.com/kbsweb/kbsshare/game.htm?mid=100002:15181
> 
> 1st half and 2nd half game are located on the bottom of the page.  Click and scroll back up to play. A new window will not open.


Embarassing ball-watching by our defense, and some heads up runs and simple passes by the Chinese, result in 4 of their goals. We can no longer rely on athleticism and individual talent to overcome poor coaching, and we need to stop selecting players based solely on their ability to play 1v1 soccer in the US Soccer "scrimmages" masquerading as tryouts and training sessions.  Clearly, nothing is changing.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 17, 2017)

Dos Equis said:


> Embarassing ball-watching by our defense, and some heads up runs and simple passes by the Chinese, result in 4 of their goals. We can no longer rely on athleticism and individual talent to overcome poor coaching, and we need to stop selecting players based solely on their ability to play 1v1 soccer in the US Soccer "scrimmages" masquerading as tryouts and training sessions.  Clearly, nothing is changing.


China's 2nd goal was sweet, reminiscent of  goals scored by Barcelona back in the Xavi era.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> China is now beating our YNT.
> http://sports.qq.com/kbsweb/kbsshare/game.htm?mid=100002:15181
> 
> 1st half and 2nd half game are located on the bottom of the page.  Click and scroll back up to play. A new window will not open.


We do not want to awaken the sleeping dragon.  With 1.2 billion people if they start liking the taste of success we might never catch up again.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 17, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> We do not want to awaken the sleeping dragon.  With 1.2 billion people if they start liking the taste of success we might never catch up again.


I liked that China played a 4-2-3-1 formation. A lot of Euro men pro teams play the formation and not an often used formation in the womens game.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> China is now beating our YNT.
> http://sports.qq.com/kbsweb/kbsshare/game.htm?mid=100002:15181
> 
> 1st half and 2nd half game are located on the bottom of the page.  Click and scroll back up to play. A new window will not open.[/QUOT





MakeAPlay said:


> We do not want to awaken the sleeping dragon.  With 1.2 billion people if they start liking the taste of success we might never catch up again.


MAP you are correct but I would add it's already underway. China's President is a huge soccer fan. China has the world's largest soccer boarding school-Named " Evergrande " staffed with a bunch of Spanish coaches as the non-Chinese name of the school implies. President Xi wants to have something like 50,000 schools with strong soccer  programs by 2025.

For those who are curious and interested here is an overview of their long range plan:   https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/asia/china-soccer-xi-jinping.html


----------



## SocalPapa (Jul 17, 2017)

Wow, that right back for the US on the last goal had a terrible sequence.  First, her bad positioning holds the Chinese striker on side.  Then she stops and (wrongly) signals off side for the ref while the girl she was supposed to be guarding slips right past her for the easy goal.


----------



## SocalPapa (Jul 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> China's 2nd goal was sweet, reminiscent of  goals scored by Barcelona back in the Xavi era.


A beautiful horizontal crossing run. Our girls had no idea how to defend it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 17, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> MAP you are correct but I would add it's already underway. China's President is a huge soccer fan. China has the world's largest soccer boarding school-Named " Evergrande " staffed with a bunch of Spanish coaches as the non-Chinese name of the school implies. President Xi wants to have something like 50,000 schools with strong soccer  programs by 2025.
> 
> For those who are curious and interested here is an overview of their long range plan:   https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/asia/china-soccer-xi-jinping.html


I'm not a fan of communist but you have to like Xi's will to improve the country.  Thank you for sharing.


----------



## pulguita (Jul 17, 2017)

Bad Hombre said:


> Bigger, faster, stronger...Isn't that why the Asian teams have closed the gap? Oh yeah, that's American soccer.


Funny, a player that a few of us on this board know quite well was told in PNG at last years U20 WC that she was too small to play in the midfield by our tool of a coach as Japan and North Korea ran our asses of the pitch. It would appear that nothing has changed.


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 17, 2017)

Lumbering comes to mind


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 17, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> MAP you are correct but I would add it's already underway. China's President is a huge soccer fan. China has the world's largest soccer boarding school-Named " Evergrande " staffed with a bunch of Spanish coaches as the non-Chinese name of the school implies. President Xi wants to have something like 50,000 schools with strong soccer  programs by 2025.
> 
> For those who are curious and interested here is an overview of their long range plan:   https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/asia/china-soccer-xi-jinping.html


Japan and now the Chinese have hired Spanish coaches.  Yet, we keep on hiring the English coaches....go figure.


----------



## MarkM (Jul 17, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Japan and now the Chinese have hired Spanish coaches.  Yet, we keep on hiring the English coaches....go figure.


We did hire a German too and gave him a long rope.  You would agree, not much better.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 18, 2017)

MarkM said:


> We did hire a German too and gave him a long rope.  You would agree, not much better.


In all fairness to Jurgen, it's not his fault a lot of English coaches train our youth players at the club level.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 18, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Japan and now the Chinese have hired Spanish coaches.  Yet, we keep on hiring the English coaches....go figure.


The parents love the British accent. It makes their wallet fly open.


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 18, 2017)

Not all of us. People will figure it out soon enough mate


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 18, 2017)

SocalPapa said:


> Wow, that right back for the US on the last goal had a terrible sequence.  First, her bad positioning holds the Chinese striker on side.  Then she stops and (wrongly) signals off side for the ref while the girl she was supposed to be guarding slips right past her for the easy goal.   View attachment 1214


Her awareness, especially being on a _youth national team_, should have been much greater. It seems like a lot of defenders forget that you're not just defending the goal from the ball, but where the ball can and to who it can go to as well. Those who do, I feel as though miss out a lot on ynt experience, because of size of physical lacking. There's more to soccer than that, the biggest strongest girls aren't always the best. Take Rose Lavelle, no real significant YNT experience, or any?, and easily keeps up with the other elite nations and should be a consistent starter on the team IMO. She's fast and strong, yes, but doesn't really have any significant muscle mass (take in comparison to Morgan, Lloyd, or say Short), but somehow  manages to get past defenses with her vision and technique, and knowing when to use her speed and strength. Imagine!

 I'm, of course, not saying that there shouldn't be a balance between technique and physicality/strength in elite players, but simply put the coaching and scouting needs to improve. I don't get into these conversations a lot, but here it is. We cannot win by just outrunning the opponents, or being more physical. France's teams all the way from the youth level to the full wnt is stacked with speedsters (we all remember the SheBelieves Cup). These girls need to be learning and understanding the game better than ever before, isn't that the whole point of a YNT in the first place?!?! Women's soccer evolves, and it's simply disappointing that it seems like we, who lead the pack and got women's soccer to where it is today, are falling behind. We have the talent.


----------



## bruinblue14 (Jul 18, 2017)

Can't remember which age it was, but at the YNT vs Japan games at Stub Hub a few months ago, it was clear that height wasn't much of an advantage. The Japanese players were super tiny and quick in comparison to the US players. And the way they moved the ball.... phew, made it look like our girls are light years behind.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 18, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Her awareness, especially being on a _youth national team_, should have been much greater. It seems like a lot of defenders forget that you're not just defending the goal from the ball, but where the ball can and to who it can go to as well. Those who do, I feel as though miss out a lot on ynt experience, because of size of physical lacking. There's more to soccer than that, the biggest strongest girls aren't always the best. Take Rose Lavelle, no real significant YNT experience, or any?, and easily keeps up with the other elite nations and should be a consistent starter on the team IMO. She's fast and strong, yes, but doesn't really have any significant muscle mass (take in comparison to Morgan, Lloyd, or say Short), but somehow  manages to get past defenses with her vision and technique, and knowing when to use her speed and strength. Imagine!
> 
> I'm, of course, not saying that there shouldn't be a balance between technique and physicality/strength in elite players, but simply put the coaching and scouting needs to improve. I don't get into these conversations a lot, but here it is. We cannot win by just outrunning the opponents, or being more physical. France's teams all the way from the youth level to the full wnt is stacked with speedsters (we all remember the SheBelieves Cup). These girls need to be learning and understanding the game better than ever before, isn't that the whole point of a YNT in the first place?!?! Women's soccer evolves, and it's simply disappointing that it seems like we, who lead the pack and got women's soccer to where it is today, are falling behind. We have the talent.


Rose LaVelle was a YNT player.  She was on the 2014 U20 WWC team and was on the U18 WNT prior to that.  I understand your point though.


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Rose LaVelle was a YNT player.  She was on the 2014 U20 WWC team and was on the U18 WNT prior to that.  I understand your point though.


Thanks for clearing that up. I was unsure if she'd been in the ynts before


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 18, 2017)

MarkM said:


> We did hire a German too and gave him a long rope.  You would agree, not much better.


Wrong German. We want the one that wasn't fired by the German Federation. At least on the men's side.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 18, 2017)

bruinblue14 said:


> Can't remember which age it was, but at the YNT vs Japan games at Stub Hub a few months ago, it was clear that height wasn't much of an advantage. The Japanese players were super tiny and quick in comparison to the US players. And the way they moved the ball.... phew, made it look like our girls are light years behind.


It was the under 20's. Went to that game. Japan was clearly the more tactical and technical team. And, displayed a great deal of creativity. Our ladies lumbered around with one idea go forward over the top or on occasion tried a through ball.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 18, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> It was the under 20's. Went to that game. Japan was clearly the more tactical and technical team. And, displayed a great deal of creativity. Our ladies lumbered around with one idea go forward over the top or on occasion tried a through ball.


One word.  Coaching....


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> One word.  Coaching....


I concur. Coaching is everything. And a coach willing to not chose players that fit a single mold.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 18, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I concur. Coaching is everything. And a coach willing to not chose players that fit a single mold.


Imagine what would happen if we got a Spanish coach and all of a sudden we with our vast resources started producing results.  What would that do to the establishment?  And would that be exporting American jobs or making America great again?

It's such a conundrum.  Or is it????


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 18, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Imagine what would happen if we got a Spanish coach and all of a sudden we with our vast resources started producing results.  What would that do to the establishment?  And would that be exporting American jobs or making America great again?
> 
> It's such a conundrum.  Or is it????


Great questions for thought. Think the establishment would have to make an uncomfortable change. At least for them. I would hope US Soccer and American coaches would embrace this change and build from it by making it their own. It could help shape and establish a style of play that we have yet to call our own. I think it is a condrum because will anything really happen to take US Soccer forward in a way we all want it to go.


----------



## JJP (Jul 18, 2017)

https://farpostfooty.com/2014/06/06/the-cost-of-development-tom-byers-effect/

Here's an article about what Japan has done for about a couple of decades to develop a bumper crop of talented players.  They have clearly broken through on the women's side and IMO it's pretty obvious the US women's team has to adopt a similar approach or face getting outskilled and outmaneuvered on the pitch because we lack ball mastery in tight spaces.

Japan has not broken through on the men's side but again IMO, they are playing a more attractive and skilled brand of soccer, and they are closer to catching up with the European and South American powers than we are.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 19, 2017)

JJP said:


> https://farpostfooty.com/2014/06/06/the-cost-of-development-tom-byers-effect/
> 
> Here's an article about what Japan has done for about a couple of decades to develop a bumper crop of talented players.  They have clearly broken through on the women's side and IMO it's pretty obvious the US women's team has to adopt a similar approach or face getting outskilled and outmaneuvered on the pitch because we lack ball mastery in tight spaces.
> 
> Japan has not broken through on the men's side but again IMO, they are playing a more attractive and skilled brand of soccer, and they are closer to catching up with the European and South American powers than we are.


Good article. Enjoyed it. Makes you think why we can't get it right when so many do.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 20, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Imagine what would happen if we got a Spanish coach and all of a sudden we with our vast resources started producing results.  What would that do to the establishment?  And would that be exporting American jobs or making America great again?
> 
> It's such a conundrum.  Or is it????


That would depend on if the coach was legal or not.


----------



## outside! (Jul 21, 2017)

*U.S. U-17 Women’s National Team earns 2-0 win over Japan*
http://www.soccerwire.com/news/nt/international-women/u-s-u-17-womens-national-team-earns-2-0-win-over-japan/


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 21, 2017)

Thanks Outside...just wondering if the final score reflected the match play...Looking at the stats it seems as though Japan had twice as many shots (10 for J vs 5 for USA) , almost twice as many corner kicks (7 for J 4 for USA), fewer fouls( 0 for J and 9 for USA), and fewer saves ( 3 saves for J compared to  5 saves for USA)...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> That would depend on if the coach was legal or not.


Would it?  A job lost to a non-citizen is a job lost to a non-citizen whether they are legal or not.  Without foreign workers our economy wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today.  If it wasn't for immigration our President wouldn't have two of his three wives.  It's all good though.  Until we do something different on the Women's side we will continue to be passed by other countries.  We really don't want China and India to pass us because that will signal the end of the dominance of the western world in sports....


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 21, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Would it?  A job lost to a non-citizen is a job lost to a non-citizen whether they are legal or not.  Without foreign workers our economy wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today.  If it wasn't for immigration our President wouldn't have two of his three wives.  It's all good though.  Until we do something different on the Women's side we will continue to be passed by other countries.  We really don't want China and India to pass us because that will signal the end of the dominance of the western world in sports....


Where do you think the USWNT stands right now?


----------



## pulguita (Jul 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Where do you think the USWNT stands right now?


The current US staff has never played  technical, possession oriented soccer during their playing days.  They have no appreciation or cultural identity for it.  The asian countries did not either so they went out and got it.   In the next 4-8 years the French and Spanish will catch and pass everyone.  They will be more athletic and have a history of the technical game.  They are just playing catch up do to a more cultural thing.   If the US wants to get back in the game they need a clean slate, get the right coaches and it will take 8-12 years for the foundation to be corrected.


----------



## JJP (Jul 21, 2017)

pulguita said:


> The current US staff has never played  technical, possession oriented soccer during their playing days.  They have no appreciation or cultural identity for it.  The asian countries did not either so they went out and got it.   In the next 4-8 years the French and Spanish will catch and pass everyone.  They will be more athletic and have a history of the technical game.  They are just playing catch up do to a more cultural thing.   If the US wants to get back in the game they need a clean slate, get the right coaches and it will take 8-12 years for the foundation to be corrected.


Agree with every word you say.  They have to get rid of bigger + faster + kickball and start with technical possession soccer from u8 and below and rebuild from the ground up.  At this point, IMO, the writing is already on the wall.  We have already been passed by at the younger age groups and it's only a matter of time before the senior NT starts seeing the same results.


----------



## espola (Jul 21, 2017)

JJP said:


> Agree with every word you say.  They have to get rid of bigger + faster + kickball and start with technical possession soccer from u8 and below and rebuild from the ground up.  At this point, IMO, the writing is already on the wall.  We have already been passed by at the younger age groups and it's only a matter of time before the senior NT starts seeing the same results.


The way to win games is to score more goals than your opponent.  Let's not get too fussy about how it is done.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 21, 2017)

pulguita said:


> The current US staff has never played  technical, possession oriented soccer during their playing days.  They have no appreciation or cultural identity for it.  The asian countries did not either so they went out and got it.   In the next 4-8 years the French and Spanish will catch and pass everyone.  They will be more athletic and have a history of the technical game.  They are just playing catch up do to a more cultural thing.   If the US wants to get back in the game they need a clean slate, get the right coaches and it will take 8-12 years for the foundation to be corrected.


Both French national teams are so fun to watch! A great blend of technique and athleticism.


----------



## JJP (Jul 22, 2017)

espola said:


> The way to win games is to score more goals than your opponent.  Let's not get too fussy about how it is done.


This attitude is why the US is having issues .

You can easily win at younger age groups with bigger, faster, stronger plus kickball.  But it's obviously not working as well when the kids age.

Unless we teach possession soccer from young ages, and sacrifice the easy victories from using athleticism and kickball, we will get passed by.


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2017)

JJP said:


> This attitude is why the US is having issues .
> 
> You can easily win at younger age groups with bigger, faster, stronger plus kickball.  But it's obviously not working as well when the kids age.
> 
> Unless we teach possession soccer from young ages, and sacrifice the easy victories from using athleticism and kickball, we will get passed by.


Fable created by losing youth coaches.


----------



## MarkM (Jul 22, 2017)

pulguita said:


> The current US staff has never played  technical, possession oriented soccer during their playing days.  They have no appreciation or cultural identity for it.  The asian countries did not either so they went out and got it.   In the next 4-8 years the French and Spanish will catch and pass everyone.  They will be more athletic and have a history of the technical game.  They are just playing catch up do to a more cultural thing.   If the US wants to get back in the game they need a clean slate, get the right coaches and it will take 8-12 years for the foundation to be corrected.


What's Germany's excuse?  The German team passed the US over a decade ago and then flattened or regressed.


----------



## Bad Hombre (Jul 22, 2017)

JJP said:


> Agree with every word you say.  They have to get rid of bigger + faster + kickball and start with technical possession soccer from u8 and below and rebuild from the ground up.  At this point, IMO, the writing is already on the wall.  We have already been passed by at the younger age groups and it's only a matter of time before the senior NT starts seeing the same results.


What about the Olympics last year and the SheBelieves Cup this year? And, I've already heard people say Jill Ellis was trying new formations, players etc... I do not care. We should not get trounced on home turf. Friendlies are for experimentation...


----------



## LilStriker (Jul 23, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Japan and now the Chinese have hired Spanish coaches.  Yet, we keep on hiring the English coaches....go figure.


Be careful, now all the local clubs are going to hire all these Mexican coaches and then sell it as we have Spanish coaches.... heh


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 24, 2017)

LilStriker said:


> Be careful, now all the local clubs are going to hire all these Mexican coaches and then sell it as we have Spanish coaches.... heh


Spaniards and Mexicans don't look alike though.  At least I don't think they look like.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 24, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Spaniards and Mexicans don't look alike though.  At least I don't think they look like.


Some Mexicans from Mexico City do.  Blond hair and Blue eyes is not uncommon.


----------



## socalkdg (Jul 24, 2017)

JJP said:


> Agree with every word you say.  They have to get rid of bigger + faster + kickball and start with technical possession soccer from u8 and below and rebuild from the ground up.  At this point, IMO, the writing is already on the wall.  We have already been passed by at the younger age groups and it's only a matter of time before the senior NT starts seeing the same results.


Really we just have to get rid of kickball(although there are times going over the top can be the smart play).   Not sure there is anything wrong with having bigger and faster.   Bo Jackson with Messi skills(sorry, Bo knew baseball and football, I can just visualize him on the soccer field with amazing skills).       Try knocking someone like that off the ball.   Teach amazing technique and then take the quick, strong, and fast girls when technique is equal.  

The US women just don't have the amazing footwork and touch that the top 3-4 teams have.  Too often the first touch goes right towards the on rushing defender.  Or a sloppy pass.  20-25 year old women should be better than that.


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Jul 24, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Really we just have to get rid of kickball(although there are times going over the top can be the smart play).   Not sure there is anything wrong with having bigger and faster.   Bo Jackson with Messi skills(sorry, Bo knew baseball and football, I can just visualize him on the soccer field with amazing skills).       Try knocking someone like that off the ball.   Teach amazing technique and then take the quick, strong, and fast girls when technique is equal.
> 
> The US women just don't have the amazing footwork and touch that the top 3-4 teams have.  Too often the first touch goes right towards the on rushing defender.  Or a sloppy pass.  20-25 year old women should be better than that.


Dont discount creativity and intelligence either.
Predictability is the condiment paired with our US "style".
Maybe roasted Sonora salsa, or Caribbean spice, instead of just ketchup all the time.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 24, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Really we just have to get rid of kickball(although there are times going over the top can be the smart play).   Not sure there is anything wrong with having bigger and faster.   Bo Jackson with Messi skills(sorry, Bo knew baseball and football, I can just visualize him on the soccer field with amazing skills).       Try knocking someone like that off the ball.   Teach amazing technique and then take the quick, strong, and fast girls when technique is equal.
> 
> The US women just don't have the amazing footwork and touch that the top 3-4 teams have.  Too often the first touch goes right towards the on rushing defender.  Or a sloppy pass.  20-25 year old women should be better than that.


That's what US Soccer has been selecting already. The most athletic player with a touch that has been taught over a "slightly" less athletic player with better technique, skill and IQ.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 24, 2017)

Bernie Sanders said:


> Dont discount creativity and intelligence either.
> Predictability is the condiment paired with our US "style".
> Maybe roasted Sonora salsa, or Caribbean spice, instead of just ketchup all the time.


I have to wonder when our style changed to vanilla.  It would seem that with such a wonderfully wide and diverse land with so many points of origin that we would have a style so free flowing and diverse as this great land.  Maybe instead of us blending it all up and making a smoothie we should try for something more like a 7 layer dip.  Utilizing many styles but layering them seamlessly.

I know I am dreaming but we can hope right?


----------



## Bernie Sanders (Jul 24, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Some Mexicans from Mexico City do.  Blond hair and Blue eyes is not uncommon.


Mexicans are as diverse as we are.
Its a country with a rich cultural heritage.


----------



## JJP (Jul 25, 2017)

espola said:


> Fable created by losing youth coaches.


You have to ask yourself, what exactly are you looking for in youth soccer in general, and for your kids in particular?  If you are looking to win at all costs, then the easiest way is to put a fast player who can shoot up top and kickball it.  It takes the least amount of skill and coaching, and you can get by sprinkling talented players in key parts of the field and surround them with lesser talent.

I love to win as much as the next guy, but I truly believe that youth soccer (before HS) should be about developing individual skills and soccer IQ.  I think kickball soccer can develop longball defensive specialists and aerial receptionist specialized strikers, but that's it.  Developing a team of players with high quality passing and receiving skills, and the soccer IQ to make the right runs and intelligent off ball movement is hard as hell, and it's guaranteed you will lose games during the development process because  there are going to be dangerous turnovers while the team learns to play this kind of passing system.

But once you train up players capable of playing this way, you have a team of players that have the ability through ball control in tight spaces and accurate passing/intelligent off ball movement to maintain possession and create multiple scoring chances.

Soccer is the beautiful game.  Why strive for ugly?


----------



## LilStriker (Jul 25, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I have to wonder when our style changed to vanilla.  It would seem that with such a wonderfully wide and diverse land with so many points of origin that we would have a style so free flowing and diverse as this great land.  Maybe instead of us blending it all up and making a smoothie we should try for something more like a 7 layer dip.  Utilizing many styles but layering them seamlessly.
> 
> I know I am dreaming but we can hope right?


Well, i think it's because there are way better opportunities in the US career wise than professional soccer. While it can be an amazing experience that is unique, over the long term, you probably be better off financially by working to become a doctor/lawyer, etc... we talk about kids in other countries who play soccer from dusk till dawn - why the hell aren't they in school? Here it is more about getting into higher education while playing something you love. Given that you really do need intelligence and creativity to truly play the beautiful game, a lot of the players who have the most potential in soccer also could be very successful in much higher paying and less physically demanding jobs.

So, at the end of the day, you end up with these players that are very good, but not GREAT. And for those to succeed, rather than creating their own style, they have to emulate others and so they all end up looking the same.

Just my theory...


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## cowboy (Jul 27, 2017)

When do you say when? Coaches? Players? Board members? U17 then u 20 flameout, now the olders garbage against the Aussies.


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## boots (Jul 27, 2017)

USA needs new blood. They can play out the back beautifully and somewhat transition to middies to only lose all patience in final third with old style North/South running forwards. Sad.


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## twosoccergirls (Jul 27, 2017)

clearly we have a problem selecting the right talent. There are so many soccer players in the US-we should be dominating. What I watched tonight makes me wonder if selection on WNT is just all a scam. They cannot event connect passes! The defense is just sending the ball to noone! Just embarrassing!!!


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 27, 2017)

Hope Solo bailed out the US WNT many times during her career.  Yes she was controversial figure...but, without her in goal.  We might finally be seeing just how important of a role she was for the defense.


----------



## TangoCity (Jul 27, 2017)

twosoccergirls said:


> clearly we have a problem selecting the right talent. There are so many soccer players in the US-we should be dominating. What I watched tonight makes me wonder if selection on WNT is just all a scam. They cannot event connect passes! The defense is just sending the ball to noone! Just embarrassing!!!


Just like State Cup finals.


----------



## gkrent (Jul 27, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> Hope Solo bailed out the US WNT many times during her career.  Yes she was controversial figure...but, without her in goal.  We might finally be seeing just how important of a role she was for the defense.



It's the head coaches fault for failing to develop the talent in the hopper and kowtowing to the incumbent even as she made mistakes and embarrassed the organization.


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## NoGoal (Jul 27, 2017)

gkrent said:


> It's the head coaches fault for failing to develop the talent in the hopper and kowtowing to the incumbent even as she made mistakes and embarrassed the organization.


The goal could have been saved.  Watch the replay (WatchESPN app) Naeher was slow to react off her line and then actually stepped backwards vs coming all the way out, making herself big and cutting off the angle.

As for Ellis, some advice...when you play a 4-4-2.  Make sure you don't play 2 holding mids, Long and Mewis seriously.  How about a holding mid and an attacking mid?  Sure Lavelle and Heath are injured, but IDK maybe start Morgan Brian.  Also why sub out Taylor Smith, IMO I haven't seen anything in Short after 4-5 games already.  Press and Horan was an atrocious pairing uptop.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 27, 2017)

gkrent said:


> It's the head coaches fault for failing to develop the talent in the hopper and kowtowing to the incumbent even as she made mistakes and embarrassed the organization.


Remove the Russian wins and the US WNT record in 2017 isn't very good.  She Believes Cup fail, 1st game in this tournament fail.  USWNT reminds me of Tiger Woods.  The intimidation factor is GONE.


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 27, 2017)

twosoccergirls said:


> There are so many soccer players in the US-we should be dominating


soccer is not supposed to be a game of domination. It should not be games of 5-0, 6-0, 4-0 games all of the time. The style of play that got us those results doesn't cut it anymore. That was the beginning of women's soccer, which, unfortunately, wasn't as far back as anybody here would like. This change has been going on for years now, and it was a staffing/coaching problem that the USWNT didn't adjust to the game and to the other nations starting to play not just adequate soccer that compete,s but good soccer, and that now that there are countries who overwhelm us in one way (i.e. France, faster AND more technical) or another, I would say we're behind the curve. 

The game evolves. That's why it is the beautiful game. That's why UCLA, Stanford, (USC) don't when all the games even though they are probably the top two teams in the conference. It's why UNC doesn't when all the championships anymore. It's why Barca doesn't win all the games, why Real doesn't, why Man U, or Juve doesn't. I agree with many posters who say there is a coaching process and that there are those who should get a call up with our WNT. However, there are those in that lineup, who deserve to be there and are world class players. That cannot be argued.

Having a lot of soccer players and having quality soccer players that can compete at the international level are two different things also.


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 27, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> The goal could have been saved.  Watch the replay (WatchESPN app) Naeher was slow to react off her line and then actually stepped backwards vs coming all the way out, making herself big and cutting off the angle.
> 
> As for Ellis, some advice...when you play a 4-4-2.  Make sure you don't play 2 holding mids, Long and Mewis seriously.  How about a holding mid and an attacking mid?  Sure Lavelle and Heath are injured, but IDK maybe start Morgan Brian.  Also why sub out Taylor Smith, IMO I haven't seen anything in Short after 4-5 games already.  Press and Horan was an atrocious pairing uptop.


Great point about the formation! Have some *depth*. I feel like every single time anyone (ESPN, interviewee, even when Mia is calling the game, and definitely Ellis) uses the word depth is talking about the bench and who they have as subs and not on the field as much.  Why was Horan even up top!?!


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 27, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Why was Horan even up top!?!


IDK, my only guess is Ellis felt bad by not starting her at holding midfield or maybe she wanted to play 3 holding midfielders with Horan out of position.  Who knows what she is thinking when she has the following forwards sitting on the bench with Alex Morgan, Crystal Dunn, Lynn Williams, and Sydney Leroux.

When you have 2 forwards they better be fast and Press isn't know for her speed.  Horan, I've never thought she was fast. Rampino played well as the left winger though.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 28, 2017)

Frustrating to watch, to say the least. Horan at forward? Haven't been impressed with Short at all.  Unfortunately, Naher doesn't inspire the confidence we all had with Solo between the pipes.  My DD Asitting next to me as we watched, says to me, "looks like they don't know each other. There's no connection". Totally agree.


----------



## chiefs (Jul 28, 2017)

cowboy said:


> When do you say when? Coaches? Players? Board members? U17 then u 20 flameout, now the olders garbage against the Aussies.


It's time cowboy to relieve Jill and her staff including the scouts , cut a handful of girls, fire the board members whom hires go thru. Only then will US start moving forward. I agree with twosoccergirls in the fact that the scouting for player selection is bad; if girls can't play from the back or just launch the ball please just get rid of them.


----------



## chiefs (Jul 28, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> soccer is not supposed to be a game of domination. It should not be games of 5-0, 6-0, 4-0 games all of the time. The style of play that got us those results doesn't cut it anymore. That was the beginning of women's soccer, which, unfortunately, wasn't as far back as anybody here would like. This change has been going on for years now, and it was a staffing/coaching problem that the USWNT didn't adjust to the game and to the other nations starting to play not just adequate soccer that compete,s but good soccer, and that now that there are countries who overwhelm us in one way (i.e. France, faster AND more technical) or another, I would say we're behind the curve.
> 
> The game evolves. That's why it is the beautiful game. That's why UCLA, Stanford, (USC) don't when all the games even though they are probably the top two teams in the conference. It's why UNC doesn't when all the championships anymore. It's why Barca doesn't win all the games, why Real doesn't, why Man U, or Juve doesn't. I agree with many posters who say there is a coaching process and that there are those who should get a call up with our WNT. However, there are those in that lineup, who deserve to be there and are world class players. That cannot be argued.
> 
> Having a lot of soccer players and having quality soccer players that can compete at the international level are two different things also.


Nice post but what's your solution?


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 28, 2017)

chiefs said:


> Nice post but what's your solution?


This is going to be very long, so I apologize, but..

Well, of course, better coaching. But not just at the top level. If US Soccer is going to be putting the money in at the youth international levels, which I've heard some users posting against, basically all other countries have youth national teams. It's a part of their development. The national stage is too much of a jump in talent especially on the women's side. But back to that, they need to focus more on development and creating a good style of play that they want at the full international level. They need to teach those girls patient soccer, but also tactical (i.e start playing more direct in the last 5 minutes of a nil-nil game, possess more toward the end of a 1-0 game). The Girls DA for crying out loud prides itself on less games with more meaningful competition and for scouting for the YNT. Yet, why to the youth national teams play games that end in 15-0, 12-0?? Even though they shouldn't have been playing that game anyway, since they where, why weren't  the girls working on playing out of the back as much as possible after IDK 5-0. For these girls, it's not like in the Blowout thread where they could focus more on individual development, but rather team development. Those girls are good passes, try playing some Tiki-Taka, try possession, try new formations. But instead they went in to score as many goals as possible and completely humiliate their opponent. Was it the U16 YNT that went the UEFA development tournament where all players had to play 80 minutes? Do more of those!!

The whole point of the YNT's (like how I said that all other countries have them and use them to develop) is to hopefully prepare these kids to play for the full national team and to prepare them for that level and to teach them what is expected. Also, I think the ECNL has made a major role in the incoming talent lately. While the ECNL has been around for a while, the play has really evolved and forces these girls to play at another level. I would even argue that there are teams in the ECNL who play better than youth national teams 9-10 years ago. So, even with GDA, I think the ECNL will be a major role over the next 5 years and that almost all of the talent will be coming from there. Whether in U-20 call ups, U-23, or the full national team (anything post high school). Like I mentioned before, I firmly believe that soccer, and especially women's soccer for it's relatively young age, is a game that is continually changing and evolving. But that's also from consistency. ECNL has the consistency and the play in it gets better every year. GDA is a brand new league that's supposed to be just as good? Leagues don't just form and put restrictions so that on;y whatever the best clubs are deemed as can play in it and then suddenly it's elite. It doesn't work like that. Has anyone heard of that happening? Not just in soccer, but in anything? Quite honestly I think that it was a poor decision on US Soccer and a representation of someone up there's misunderstanding of the game.

In a nutshell, it starts at the bottom. With the youth. Has anyone noticed that the youth coming in to the YNT are young, creative minds that thrived in the ECNL? It's not even the ECNL part that's important (well it is but I already see some of the posters going against what I said just because of that) but they come from the next generation that formed in an elite environment that forces good soccer. That has good coaches that don't just want to win, but enjoy the game and want their players to play good soccer. It'll take time, especially once GDA gets going because all it does it take promising players from a league that has already proven itself to make good players. Please don't get me wrong, I genuinely hope that the GDA is everything it is supposed to be from Day 1, but it's not realistic.

At the full national team level, I m honestly a fan of calling more players in from the NWSL. I do not agree with the tactics and the decisions she has made with and about those players. For ex, she has given Short more than enough chances to be a player on that team, though I have seen nothing of her to even say she should be playing at the international level. Something I just thought of, @NoGoal , giving Ellis the benefit of the doubt, maybe she is giving Short an extended run because she knows that there will be time needed for some players to adjust to the international level? With that being said, I would take note that it is also the one position of her call up ees from the NWSL that doesn't really affect goal scoring, literally. Short doesn't help in the attack. I think at all. But anyways, why call up a forward and then have an open position at forward AND NOT PLAY THE FORWARD?!?! LOL. IM SORRY IM JUST SO CONFUSED. If Ellis is going to be spending the next half year, year or whatever experimenting, experiment with the players like she said she was going to. Let players prove themselves and a position on the team.

Okay last of all. Look at the first part of this video. It looks like Ellis hasn't learned at all. She literally just said direct is our identity. They need to stop identifying as strong fast and powerful and just start playing good soccer. It's good to be fast and strong and powerful, but if you can't use those abilities correctly with technical skill we will get nowhere. Seriously, all elite nations are strong fast and powerful. Once again France killed us in all those aspects, but also in the aspect that they were more technical. Much more technical and much better vision and creativity as a whole. More connection. Of course, that's what Ellis tries to stress in the video, _however_ I feel as though she is relying more and more on the players coming in and being individually good and it sounds like she's trying to bring in the style of play rather than develop it.

I love discussion so if anyone wants to reply to a certain part or has a better idea I'd love to hear it. That's the whole point of the board after all, isn't it?   Also, I'm sorry for any typos

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2017/07/28/00/55/20170727-news-wnt-v-australia-tournament-of-nations-lineup-notes


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 28, 2017)

It's nice to read all of this. Casey Short has not completed a pass- it's embarassing. I do not understand everyone's fascination with Allie Long and Horan either. 
I don't anticipate it getting any better as France has already surpassed us technically


----------



## espola (Jul 28, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> This is going to be very long, so I apologize, but..
> 
> Well, of course, better coaching. But not just at the top level. If US Soccer is going to be putting the money in at the youth international levels, which I've heard some users posting against, basically all other countries have youth national teams. It's a part of their development. The national stage is too much of a jump in talent especially on the women's side. But back to that, they need to focus more on development and creating a good style of play that they want at the full international level. They need to teach those girls patient soccer, but also tactical (i.e start playing more direct in the last 5 minutes of a nil-nil game, possess more toward the end of a 1-0 game). The Girls DA for crying out loud prides itself on less games with more meaningful competition and for scouting for the YNT. Yet, why to the youth national teams play games that end in 15-0, 12-0?? Even though they shouldn't have been playing that game anyway, since they where, why weren't  the girls working on playing out of the back as much as possible after IDK 5-0. For these girls, it's not like in the Blowout thread where they could focus more on individual development, but rather team development. Those girls are good passes, try playing some Tiki-Taka, try possession, try new formations. But instead they went in to score as many goals as possible and completely humiliate their opponent. Was it the U16 YNT that went the UEFA development tournament where all players had to play 80 minutes? Do more of those!!
> 
> ...


This is going to be really short, so I apologize if I appear abrupt.

We need to stop pretending that strong, fast, and powerful cannot be "good soccer".


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 28, 2017)

espola said:


> This is going to be really short, so I apologize if I appear abrupt.
> 
> We need to stop pretending that strong, fast, and powerful cannot be "good soccer".


I didn't say that it can't be, I'm saying that there needs to be more to the play than that. Quote below



PLSAP said:


> It's good to be fast and strong and powerful, but if you can't use those abilities correctly with technical skill we will get nowhere. Seriously, all elite nations are strong fast and powerful. Once again France killed us in all those aspects, but also in the aspect that they were more technical.


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 28, 2017)

espola said:


> This is going to be really short, so I apologize if I appear abrupt.
> 
> We need to stop pretending that strong, fast, and powerful cannot be "good soccer".


They aren't  strong and fast and powerful. Casey Short can't complete a pass.
The only one who qualifies as a stallion is Lynn Williams. 
The others also seem so mentally weak to me. People also need to let the love of Press and Krieger GO AWAY!


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 28, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> They aren't  strong and fast and powerful. Casey Short can't complete a pass.
> The only one who qualifies as a stallion is Lynn Williams.
> The others also seem so mentally weak to me. People also need to let the love of Press and Krieger GO AWAY!


Krieger too? I would say she's a pretty solid player IMO. She's strong and fast, but also versatile and IMO, one of the best players on the team in terms of vision and tactical/technical skill. 

Intriguing for you to say mentally weak, care to explain why?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 28, 2017)

Is it just me or does it seem that the WNT under Ellis is starting to resemble the MNT under Klinsman?


----------



## gkrent (Jul 28, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Is it just me or does it seem that the WNT under Ellis is starting to resemble the MNT under Klinsman?


I was on my way to post this very thing.  The team is starting to stagnate and needs some fresh direction such that  Arena has brought to the MNT.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 28, 2017)

gkrent said:


> I was on my way to post this very thing.  The team is starting to stagnate and needs some fresh direction such that  Arena has brought to the MNT.


It just seems that all the "tinkering" has lead to confusion on the field this our inability to connect passes. Short's play reminded me of Bradley during the WC where he competed more passes to the opposing team than his own team (however under Arena, he has been solid thus far).

I feel a Coaching change is in order!


----------



## bababooey (Jul 28, 2017)

I watched the last 20 minutes of the game last night, so there is a lot I missed. To me, the USWNT plays a very predictable style and other nations have figured us out. When we had Abby up top, we could fire crosses in and hope she gets her head to them. Not a bad strategy, but you need to have a plan B.

Here is my biggest criticism of the USWNT (and the USMNT too)....where is the creativity? Where is the desire to try and beat your defender 1v1 or 1v2? I realize that this doesn't work a lot of the time, but at least it would keep the defenders thinking (will she try to beat me off the dribble or try to pass around me?). Defenders struggle most when they don't know what the forwards intend to do. The USWNT forwards seem too predictable.

I have been not been impressed with our midfielders for some time. When Carli Lloyd is playing attacking mid, we look decent. When she is not in that spot, we really don't seem to have another option.


----------



## bababooey (Jul 28, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> It just seems that all the "tinkering" has lead to confusion on the field this our inability to connect passes. Short's play reminded me of Bradley during the WC where he competed more passes to the opposing team than his own team (however under Arena, he has been solid thus far).
> 
> I feel a Coaching change is in order!


But wait, the GDA is going to fix all of that, right???


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 28, 2017)

gkrent said:


> I was on my way to post this very thing.  The team is starting to stagnate and needs some fresh direction such that  Arena has brought to the MNT.


Funny if you follow Kleiban his perspective is way different. Look at Kleibans twitter or blog- very informative at the least they also have a podcast which I enjoy

http://blog.3four3.com


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 28, 2017)

bababooey said:


> But wait, the GDA is going to fix all of that, right???


Yeah it's totally going to fix it especially now that all of her former coaches are in place as advisors


----------



## Zerodenero (Jul 28, 2017)

gkrent said:


> I was on my way to post this very thing.  The team is starting to stagnate and needs some fresh direction such that  Arena has brought to the MNT.


So my question to fellow forum members w/the 411 down low on YNT/WNT is....how on gods great earth do the powers at be not see this?.... Let alone do something about this?...power?.... $$?

If this were the biz world, the answer would be pretty simple.


----------



## gkrent (Jul 28, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Funny if you follow Kleiban his perspective is way different. Look at Kleibans twitter or blog- very informative at the least they also have a podcast which I enjoy
> 
> http://blog.3four3.com


He has some great posts and I don't disagree with many of his assertions regarding American soccer culture, but I still think that when you have players openly stating that they needed an injection of energy and motivation then things obviously were stagnating under Klinsman.  I think a better place for him might be as the President of US soccer where he can begin affecting change in both the MLS and culturally with policy.


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 28, 2017)

Zerodenero said:


> So my question to fellow forum members w/the 411 down low on YNT/WNT is....how on gods great earth do the powers at be not see this?.... Let alone do something about this?...power?.... $$?
> 
> If this were the biz world, the answer would be pretty simple.


Two words Michele French.
Research why


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## Zerodenero (Jul 28, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Two words Michele French.
> Research why


10-4. Will do.


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## pulguita (Jul 28, 2017)

Zerodenero said:


> So my question to fellow forum members w/the 411 down low on YNT/WNT is....how on gods great earth do the powers at be not see this?.... Let alone do something about this?...power?.... $$?
> 
> If this were the biz world, the answer would be pretty simple.


No sh_t!  How can BJ Snow who failed at UCLA (yes pretty much failed with all that talent) and the U17 YNT be promoted to the U23 WNT?  Frenchy was atrocious at U20 but moves up to be an assistant with the full team?  Are you kidding me.  Fired!


----------



## pulguita (Jul 28, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Funny if you follow Kleiban his perspective is way different. Look at Kleibans twitter or blog- very informative at the least they also have a podcast which I enjoy
> 
> http://blog.3four3.com


Been following the bros for years before they even had the blog.  They are trying to bring a professional culture from SA and Europe to the US.  I pretty much agree with 99% of what they say.  Its amazing how many boys DA try to marginalize them due to their methods as they promptly kick everyone's ass.  The problem is they illuminate how deficient our coaching culture is, our player development and our identification.   And well the truth hurts.  It goes for both sides men and women.


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## NoGoal (Jul 28, 2017)

pulguita said:


> No sh_t!  How can BJ Snow who failed at UCLA (yes pretty much failed with all that talent) and the U17 YNT be promoted to the U23 WNT?  Frenchy was atrocious at U20 but moves up to be an assistant with the full team?  Are you kidding me.  Fired!


I posted this before, cronyism has led to group think in the US YNT and Sr team.  The head coach who was hired with a different philosophy was Tom Sermanni, but was fired after a very short stint.


----------



## pulguita (Jul 28, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> I posted this before, cronyism has led to group think in the US YNT and Sr team.  The head coach who was hired with a different philosophy was Tom Sermanni, but was fired after a very short stint.


That was because Wambat and all the other old cronies didn't like Sermani mixing up the soup.


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## pulguita (Jul 28, 2017)

Man this is fun when we all get together to bash the same crap we see over and over.  Makes me kinda warm and fuzzy!


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## Kicknit22 (Jul 28, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> It's nice to read all of this. Casey Short has not completed a pass- it's embarassing. I do not understand everyone's fascination with Allie Long and Horan either.
> I don't anticipate it getting any better as France has already surpassed us technically


I've posted more than once about Long. I don't get it either. Other than an occasional header, she brings absolutely nothing to the table.


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## Kicknit22 (Jul 28, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Krieger too? I would say she's a pretty solid player IMO. She's strong and fast, but also versatile and IMO, one of the best players on the team in terms of vision and tactical/technical skill.
> 
> Intriguing for you to say mentally weak, care to explain why?


Sorry, but I disagree.  Until someone comes and prov s to be better than Krieger and Kling, don't F with it.  I have yet to see anyone who is even close.  O'Hara is useless.


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 28, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  Until someone comes and prov s to be better than Krieger and Kling, don't F with it.  I have yet to see anyone who is even close.  O'Hara is useless.


Wait so are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 28, 2017)

PLSAP said:


> Wait so are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?


Haha, sorry PLSAP. Too many adult beverages and read that wrong.  I should not have said "disagree".  I obviously agree.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2017)

Looking forward to tonights game against Brazil.
Lets hope we see a bounce back after the loss against the Aussies.

I expect more thought to go into who starts tonight, especially at the offensive end.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 30, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Looking forward to tonights game against Brazil.
> Lets hope we see a bounce back after the loss against the Aussies.
> 
> I expect more thought to go into who starts tonight, especially at the offensive end.


Looking forward as well.  But, I have to be honest, I'm already thinking of my first cocktail due to anxiety over what we might see!  Who has the bigger problem? Me or the team? Shit! I think it's me. I need a beer.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 30, 2017)

The UEFA Women's championship has been pretty exciting.  We need to seriously be concerned with how good the European teams are looking.  Germany got upset by Denmark, Austria upset Spain, the Dutch look good.  We could quickly find ourselves ranked outside the top ten in the world if we don't get it together soon.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 30, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> The UEFA Women's championship has been pretty exciting.  We need to seriously be concerned with how good the European teams are looking.  Germany got upset by Denmark, Austria upset Spain, the Dutch look good.  We could quickly find ourselves ranked outside the top ten in the world if we don't get it together soon.


I was just saying the same thing to a buddy of mine.  Dominance is no longer on our side.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> I was just saying the same thing to a buddy of mine.  Dominance is no longer on our side.


It's scary how technical some of these teams are.  The Dutch could be a sleeping giant.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 30, 2017)

England just beat France for the first time since 1974.  The women's game is growing....


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 30, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> England just beat France for the first time since 1974.  The women's game is growing....


Love it!!


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> Looking forward as well.  But, I have to be honest, I'm already thinking of my first cocktail due to anxiety over what we might see!  Who has the bigger problem? Me or the team? Shit! I think it's me. I need a beer.


I'll be enjoying a cocktail or two for the game.
Both my little soccer players are here for the weekend.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 30, 2017)

NOT ENOUGH ALCOHOL in my house to make this look good WTH is going on?? Some of he ugliest, sloppiest, disconnected soccer I've ever seen out of the USWNT.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> NOT ENOUGH ALCOHOL in my house to make this look good WTH is going on?? Some of he ugliest, sloppiest, disconnected soccer I've ever seen out of the USWNT.


Wait....did you watch the Australia game?


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> NOT ENOUGH ALCOHOL in my house to make this look good WTH is going on?? Some of he ugliest, sloppiest, disconnected soccer I've ever seen out of the USWNT.


Julie Foudy summed it all up when she mentioned Dunn's experience at her England Chelsea team. It's a slower, rhythm play with more technical players vs what she is used to with more athletic players (USWNT) and getting up the field quickly.

Good to see the old never die fight in the WNT though.


----------



## espola (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicknit22 said:


> NOT ENOUGH ALCOHOL in my house to make this look good WTH is going on?? Some of he ugliest, sloppiest, disconnected soccer I've ever seen out of the USWNT.


Two long balls to fast runners evened things out.


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 30, 2017)

Best part? 
Everyone in that stadium thinks this is a great win and a great game. Yawn
Love these pundits


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 30, 2017)

Rampinoe is the WNT's best player.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 30, 2017)

Did I also see that Japan lost 4-2 to Australia today


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## NoGoal (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Did I also see that Japan lost 4-2 to Australia today


Parity


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 30, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Did I also see that Japan lost 4-2 to Australia today


I noticed that they played much more direct than I had expected in their last game....


----------



## PLSAP (Jul 30, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Best part?
> Everyone in that stadium thinks this is a great win and a great game. Yawn
> Love these pundits


Or maybe they are glad that their team made a comeback like that and are showing their support even if it wasn't a great game. Not all, but surely a considerable amount. I mean, if you were there, cheering for the WNT, and they scored, then equalized, then got ahead, would you seriously not cheer just because the play throughout the game wasn't the greatest?


----------



## Striker17 (Jul 30, 2017)

Sorry not thrilled junk soccer. 
We "take the W" a lot more than we have "a great game" which is why we are crumbling and being dismantled age group by age group. 
Not that I care much to be honest- when you think people like Casey Short or Taylor are great there are bigger scouting issues at hand.
I would not encourage my DD to play at that level or NWSL so take with a grain of salt


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Sorry not thrilled junk soccer.
> We "take the W" a lot more than we have "a great game" which is why we are crumbling and being dismantled age group by age group.
> Not that I care much to be honest- when you think people like Casey Short or Taylor are great there are bigger scouting issues at hand.
> I would not encourage my DD to play at that level or NWSL so take with a grain of salt


I was encouraged to see a certain level of pride, and hustle, to come back and take the game.
Especially Rapinoe.
Seems like she was trying to prove something, and I like that.
Besides that, it was not great.

Lynn Williams comes in with a couple minutes left in the game?
Please.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 30, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I was encouraged to see a certain level of pride, and hustle, to come back and take the game.
> Especially Rapinoe.
> Seems like she was trying to prove something, and I like that.
> Besides that, it was not great.
> ...


I agree about Lynn Williams, it's obvious the team needs a target forward and Williams is perfect for that role.


----------



## espola (Jul 31, 2017)

WNT showed that they can play badly at times, and skillfully at times; that they can be unlucky, and also lucky; that they can't connect a pass at midfield, and that they can put the ball into traffic in front of the net; that they can't make a one-touch conversion in front of the open goal, and that they can snake a ball between the keeper and the post.  It was a game whose legend in WNT history will rank with the post-game kicks to win the WC from China.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 31, 2017)

Where is Hope Solo when we need her ??? ThIs goalie seemed S-L-O-W and clearly had butter fingers...also what was with all of the back passing from midfield to d-back to our goalie who launched a sloppy kick that careened out of bounds ??? So basically turnover after unforced turnover...

I thought the US "second team" turned around the game. Press created space for her shot and placed it nicely...I also  think Press got the  assist for the third goal and the equalizer... Rapino was not afraid to take on their dbacks 1 on 1....but why did we insist on going to the left side so predictably??? Love that the uswnt fought back from 1-3 to win 4-3 in last part of second half...so glad I didn't turn off when it was 1-3!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 31, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Sorry not thrilled junk soccer.
> We "take the W" a lot more than we have "a great game" which is why we are crumbling and being dismantled age group by age group.
> Not that I care much to be honest- when you think people like Casey Short or Taylor are great there are bigger scouting issues at hand.
> I would not encourage my DD to play at that level or NWSL so take with a grain of salt


Short kept booting the ball into outer space why is that tolerated ??? She turned the ball over and over with her mindless kicks/blasts in the first half but played a little better in 2h IMHO. Also Morgan seems out of it to me. I think the second team played better soccer than the first team.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 31, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> I agree about Lynn Williams, it's obvious the team needs a target forward and Williams is perfect for that role.


If Williams gets that ball on the break that Pugh got, she outruns the defender, cuts toward goal and puts it in the back of the net.
I know speed isnt everything, but Williams is so much faster than everyone else, it pays dividends.
Its crazy to not have her out there.
She is also deadly with her back to goal, receiving the ball, turning, and finishing.


----------



## espola (Jul 31, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> Where is Hope Solo when we need her ??? ThIs goalie seemed S-L-O-W and clearly had butter fingers...also what was with all of the back passing from midfield to d-back to our goalie who launched a sloppy kick that careened out of bounds ??? So basically turnover after unforced turnover...
> 
> I thought the US "second team" turned around the game. Press created space for her shot and placed it nicely...I also  think Press got the  assist for the third goal and the equalizer... Rapino was not afraid to take on their dbacks 1 on 1....but why did we insist on going to the left side so predictably??? Love that the uswnt fought back from 1-3 to win 4-3 in last part of second half...so glad I didn't turn off when it was 1-3!


The last goal came from an attack  on the right side.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 31, 2017)

espola said:


> The last goal came from an attack  on the right side.


Good point ESP, I was just pointing out that in the first half it seemed for some reason the USWNT was primarily attacking down the US left side of the field feeding the ball to Rapinoe who was outstanding...but always going left made the attack too predictable IMHO


----------



## espola (Jul 31, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> Good point ESP, I was just pointing out that in the first half it seemed for some reason the USWNT was primarily attacking down the US left side of the field feeding the ball to Rapinoe who was outstanding...but always going left made the attack too predictable IMHO


The left side attacks seemed to be working up to the point of not being able to make an effective shot.


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 31, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> Good point ESP, I was just pointing out that in the first half it seemed for some reason the USWNT was primarily attacking down the US left side of the field feeding the ball to Rapinoe who was outstanding...but always going left made the attack too predictable IMHO


IMO, it probably had to do with a couple of factors. 
1. Brazil's outside left defender was having a hard time with Rampinoe.
2. Keeping the ball on the left side, keeps the ball further away from Marta.  If they attack and lose the ball on the right. Marta is on that side to quickly counter attack.


----------



## espola (Jul 31, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> IMO, it probably had to do with a couple of factors.
> 1. Brazil's outside left defender was having a hard time with Rampinoe.
> 2. Keeping the ball on the left side, keeps the ball further away from Marta.  If they attack and lose the ball on the right. Marta is on that side to quickly counter attack.


From Brazil's standpoint, that would be the right defender.


----------



## espola (Jul 31, 2017)

Another point I couldn't help noticing.  Brazil's second goal was scored by a defender playing behind the far side of their corner kick formation.  That's on Espola's list of coaching tips, since about 30% of corner kicks go all the way through the pack in front of the goal.  Defenders should also take note of this.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 31, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> IMO, it probably had to do with a couple of factors.
> 1. Brazil's outside left defender was having a hard time with Rampinoe.
> 2. Keeping the ball on the left side, keeps the ball further away from Marta.  If they attack and lose the ball on the right. Marta is on that side to quickly counter attack.


Yes NG great point...what the US was doing was so deliberate but I did not know the reason...makes sense now thx...


----------



## NoGoal (Jul 31, 2017)

espola said:


> From Brazil's standpoint, that would be the right defender.


My bad!


----------



## espola (Aug 2, 2017)

It's all on youtube


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 3, 2017)

Big game against the Nadeshiko tonight at 7 on espn2!  Let's hope we can close this tournament with a win.  Let's see how well prepared we look for a purely technical opponent.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 3, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Big game against the Nadeshiko tonight at 7 on espn2!  Let's hope we can close this tournament with a win.  Let's see how well prepared we look for a purely technical opponent.


Taking the family. Hope to see a great game. It's also a double header.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 3, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Taking the family. Hope to see a great game. It's also a double header.


See you there!!!!


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 3, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> See you there!!!!


Sweet! If I see you I will buy you a beer.


----------



## Zerodenero (Aug 3, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Big game against the Nadeshiko tonight at 7 on espn2!  Let's hope we can close this tournament with a win.  Let's see how well prepared we look for a purely technical opponent.


Love the reference to Nadeshiko...very cool.

My heart is with our US Women, but my eyes tell me those little Ninjas are going to Ginsu our a$$


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 3, 2017)

Denmark beats Austria in PK's in the UEFA Women's European Championships and The Dutch are beating England 1-0 in the 28th minute.  

The game is growing!!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 3, 2017)

Netherlands 3-0 over England.  The Dutch could be a real problem in the future.  Their team is extremely technical and they are European so they will have the size thing covered.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 3, 2017)

Zerodenero said:


> Love the reference to Nadeshiko...very cool.
> 
> My heart is with our US Women, but my eyes tell me those little Ninjas are going to Ginsu our a$$


I hear you ZD however the US defeated them 2-0 last year and tied 3-3 in their most recent match which was also last June 2016...I think Alex Morgan had 3 goals over the two games...


----------



## Zerodenero (Aug 3, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> I hear you ZD however the US defeated them 2-0 last year and tied 3-3 in their most recent match which was also last June 2016...I think Alex Morgan had 3 goals over the two games...


You may be right. And supposively japan is in rebuild mode. But based on what we've seen over the last few games, US is vulnerable and will be exposed. 

So here it is, im going 1-0, Japan....Any takes??


----------



## NoGoal (Aug 3, 2017)

Zerodenero said:


> You may be right. And supposively japan is in rebuild mode. But based on what we've seen over the last few games, US is vulnerable and will be exposed.
> 
> So here it is, im going 1-0, Japan....Any takes??


IDK ZD, depends which formation and line-up Jill Ellis puts on the pitch.  If it's the players who she subbed in the last 15 mins or so in the Brazil game.  I say US WNT.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 3, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> IDK ZD, depends which formation and line-up Jill Ellis puts on the pitch.  If it's the players who she subbed in the last 15 mins or so in the Brazil game.  I say US WNT.


I read that the Japan squad is very young so I sure hope the US can win...but I agree NG if coach plays the "kickball squad" then Japan will be able to dominate like the Brazilians did in the first half of that game....


----------



## NoGoal (Aug 3, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> I read that the Japan squad is very young so I sure hope the US can win...but I agree NG if coach plays the "kickball squad" then Japan will be able to dominate like the Brazilians did in the first half of that game....


It's the same line-up from the last 15 mins vs Brazil.  Be nice, it's the direct soccer line-up.


----------



## espola (Aug 3, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> It's the same line-up from the last 15 mins vs Brazil.  Be nice, it's the direct soccer line-up.


Long kick counterattack leads to USA goal.  Nice stall fake by Rapinoe to drop the defender and get the keeper moving, then shoot between them.


----------



## espola (Aug 3, 2017)

That looked like a little bit of double chin on the Alex Morgan closeups.  Time for a pregnancy test?


----------



## Zerodenero (Aug 3, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> IDK ZD, depends which formation and line-up Jill Ellis puts on the pitch.  If it's the players who she subbed in the last 15 mins or so in the Brazil game.  I say US WNT.


Boy was I wrong. I'm darn lucky no one took me up on the wager ;-)


----------



## NoGoal (Aug 3, 2017)

Zerodenero said:


> Boy was I wrong. I'm darn lucky no one took me up on the wager ;-)


The Japanese team is young and their style of soccer is built on rhythm.  I saw glimpses of their superior passing in tight spaces trying to unlock the US defense.   Give them 2 more years together.

IMO, if US WNT coaches were forming their team and if those Japanese players were US citizens.  They wouldn't be called up...that's how different their player slection is compared to ours.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 3, 2017)

At least they seemed to play more cohesive at both ends.  We looked so disjointed against Australia there was a lot of cause for concern.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 4, 2017)

The experience of watching both teams was awesome. Funny but I found the warm-ups as interesting as the game. The warm-ups reflected each teams approach to the game.  I liked how organized the USWNT were at the back. They were able to deter Japan room to be creative or get deep into their own half for most of the game. However, Japan was able to create some beautiful moments in front of the US goal. Overall  Japan was not its productive self because of the US defense. Despite this Japan never deviated away from their game plan and I appreciated that. The US outside defenders also pushed deep into Japan's half and Julie Ertz (formerly Johnston) pushed up quite a bit in the first half. When the ball was pushed wide to either Pugh or Rapone they were able to spread Japan and create passing lanes directly to the goal, as well as dangerous opportunities. This was great because there was build up from the back to the forward line. Hope there is more of this kind of play. What I did not like was the long balls from the defense or the goalie deep into Japan's half. This happened far to many times. The US defenders would pass it around the back until a forward created space or a 1:1 situation and then the ball was sent forward. Yes, it did create one goal, but this will not work majority of the time. Overall fun game.


----------



## The Driver (Aug 4, 2017)

Women's soccer needs to stop taking short cuts.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 4, 2017)

The Driver said:


> Women's soccer needs to stop taking short cuts.


I'm still worried about the Dutch.


----------



## espola (Aug 4, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> The experience of watching both teams was awesome. Funny but I found the warm-ups as interesting as the game. The warm-ups reflected each teams approach to the game.  I liked how organized the USWNT were at the back. They were able to deter Japan room to be creative or get deep into their own half for most of the game. However, Japan was able to create some beautiful moments in front of the US goal. Overall  Japan was not its productive self because of the US defense. Despite this Japan never deviated away from their game plan and I appreciated that. The US outside defenders also pushed deep into Japan's half and Julie Ertz (formerly Johnston) pushed up quite a bit in the first half. When the ball was pushed wide to either Pugh or Rapone they were able to spread Japan and create passing lanes directly to the goal, as well as dangerous opportunities. This was great because there was build up from the back to the forward line. Hope there is more of this kind of play. What I did not like was the long balls from the defense or the goalie deep into Japan's half. This happened far to many times. The US defenders would pass it around the back until a forward created space or a 1:1 situation and then the ball was sent forward. Yes, it did create one goal, but this will not work majority of the time. Overall fun game.


A few long balls from the defense convinces the opponent that they must defend against that tactic.  

And one goal is often enough to win at this level.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 4, 2017)

espola said:


> A few long balls from the defense convinces the opponent that they must defend against that tactic.
> 
> And one goal is often enough to win at this level.


Understand that but it was not one or two. It dominated there attack. Need to move away from that...


----------



## espola (Aug 4, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Understand that but it was not one or two. It dominated there attack. Need to move away from that...


Need to?  Why?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 4, 2017)

espola said:


> Need to?  Why?


Stated that in my first post. Because it does not work. Example did not work against Australia and against Brazil. It's fine as an option, but not as the primary attack. Better example when the US lost to Sweden in the Olympics they tried to drop the ball over the Swedish defensive line.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 4, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> The Japanese team is young and their style of soccer is built on rhythm.  I saw glimpses of their superior passing in tight spaces trying to unlock the US defense.   Give them 2 more years together.
> 
> IMO, if US WNT coaches were forming their team and if those Japanese players were US citizens.  They wouldn't be called up...that's how different their player slection is compared to ours.


NG I agree the Japanese team looked great in tight spaces and created chances in the first half such that the US 1-0 lead was fairly characterized as fragile. They are building towards a great team very young now but getting great experience that will pay off later.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 4, 2017)

NoGoal said:


> It's the same line-up from the last 15 mins vs Brazil.  Be nice, it's the direct soccer line-up.


Press and Rapinoe have combined for quite a number of goals in the last two games that they played together...I did not think of them as the kickball squad...I think they combined for at least 3 of the last 7 goals scored vs Brazil and Japan...and Rapinoe might have been involved in 4 or 5 of the last 7 goals.


----------



## espola (Aug 4, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Stated that in my first post. Because it does not work. Example did not work against Australia and against Brazil. It's fine as an option, but not as the primary attack. Better example when the US lost to Sweden in the Olympics they tried to drop the ball over the Swedish defensive line.


Two of the goals against Brazil were set up by long passes out of the back.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 4, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> What I did not like was the long balls from the defense or the goalie deep into Japan's half. This happened far to many times.


This happened so many times with the keeper.   I don't think she is a very good passer, thus tends to just use her leg and kick it far.   On her line and diving she is top quality, coming out or playing sweeper keeper, I'd grade her very low.   So often our defense would get a steal after about 10-15 passes by Japan, then they would clear it back to the keeper, who would just kick it deep and give Japan possession again.   I think I yelled at the tv a few times over this.

I don't mind a few long balls from the defense or mids as I believe it opens up the middle of the field.  Kind of like the deep pass in football opens up the short passing game.  If Japan is pressing high, then going over the top can be a good thing.   I seem to remember France beat the US 2-0 in Feb. due to balls over the top when the US was only using 3 backs.  

OK, I was just thinking that 3 years ago I had never even watched a soccer game.   WOW.  So glad my daughter broke her arm and took up soccer.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 4, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> This happened so many times with the keeper.   I don't think she is a very good passer, thus tends to just use her leg and kick it far.   On her line and diving she is top quality, coming out or playing sweeper keeper, I'd grade her very low.   So often our defense would get a steal after about 10-15 passes by Japan, then they would clear it back to the keeper, who would just kick it deep and give Japan possession again.   I think I yelled at the tv a few times over this.
> 
> I don't mind a few long balls from the defense or mids as I believe it opens up the middle of the field.  Kind of like the deep pass in football opens up the short passing game.  If Japan is pressing high, then going over the top can be a good thing.   I seem to remember France beat the US 2-0 in Feb. due to balls over the top when the US was only using 3 backs.
> 
> OK, I was just thinking that 3 years ago I had never even watched a soccer game.   WOW.  So glad my daughter broke her arm and took up soccer.


SCDG you make a great point...to build on your point, did you see the prior game US vs Brazil? On several occasions our dbacks would pass it back to our GK and she would blast it--out of bounds...


----------



## espola (Aug 4, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> SCDG you make a great point...to build on your point, did you see the prior game US vs Brazil? On several occasions our dbacks would pass it back to our GK and she would blast it--out of bounds...


The keeper was horrid in that respect.  It looked like she was rattled.


----------



## Dos Equis (Aug 4, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> I don't mind a few long balls from the defense or mids as I believe it opens up the middle of the field.  Kind of like the deep pass in football opens up the short passing game.  If Japan is pressing high, then going over the top can be a good thing.   I seem to remember France beat the US 2-0 in Feb. due to balls over the top when the US was only using 3 backs.


You need to remove the "if."  Japan was not just pressing high, there was often only 10-20 yards from their forwards to their back line, which was playing flat and as close to the halfway line as they could.  Talk about compact.  When the US tried to move the ball on the ground through this Japanese wall, they were quickly surrounded by 3-4 players and very susceptible to turning it over (which they did).  We actually did a decent job at the start and the end of switching the field and playing balls through and over them (and up the line), which in the end is one of the better ways to deal with this defensive strategy.  

It is a mystery why we did not play more long diagonal balls over and through them, becasue both Press and Pugh were blowing by the defense whenever we put a ball behind them. 

Now our goalie play -- never thought I would miss Hope Solo so much.


----------



## Striker17 (Aug 6, 2017)

I am watching the DEN vs NED final and it's already more energy, technical, pressing than anything I saw from USWNT. It's shocking


----------



## The Driver (Aug 6, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> I am watching the DEN vs NED final and it's already more energy, technical, pressing than anything I saw from USWNT. It's shocking


It's not the US style.


----------



## Striker17 (Aug 6, 2017)

I agree- maybe I haven't had coffee but the pace just seems quicker. The USWNT walks and lumbers a lot- and their style has translated down to our girls. These teams don't stop- the pace is incredible


----------



## espola (Aug 6, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> I am watching the DEN vs NED final and it's already more energy, technical, pressing than anything I saw from USWNT. It's shocking


I just woke up and turned it on, so I haven't seen t he whole thing, but the first few minutes looked stodgy to me.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 6, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> I am watching the DEN vs NED final and it's already more energy, technical, pressing than anything I saw from USWNT. It's shocking


Is definately a good game. Interesting how they are both using a combination of build up and more direct, longer balls to create opportunities (i.e. 2nd and almost 3rd goal by DEN). 

In defense of the US, Ellis was addmittedly in "tinker" mode with the line up.  Definately would like to see an improvement in our ability to build up plays but if you look at the 3rd goal against Japan, there were a few gems in that build up that were encouraging to see.


----------



## Striker17 (Aug 6, 2017)

Kicker4Life said:


> Is definately a good game. Interesting how they are both using a combination of build up and more direct, longer balls to create opportunities (i.e. 2nd and almost 3rd goal by DEN).
> 
> In defense of the US, Ellis was addmittedly in "tinker" mode with the line up.  Definately would like to see an improvement in our ability to build up plays but if you look at the 3rd goal against Japan, there were a few gems in that build up that were encouraging to see.


Agree I mean let's get real without Heath and Lavelle their creativity is Rapinoe (who I love). The rest are not at that level


----------



## Kicknit22 (Aug 6, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Agree I mean let's get real without Heath and Lavelle their creativity is Rapinoe (who I love). The rest are not at that level


Don't forget about Kling. Nobody has outplayed her or shown they can replace her creativity and energy. We need Lavelle, Heath, Kling and Kreiger back on the pitch and this team plays completely different IMO.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 6, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> Agree I mean let's get real without Heath and Lavelle their creativity is Rapinoe (who I love). The rest are not at that level


I thought Press placed great balls to Rapinoe for two of Rapinoe's goals...Press was creative and smart the way she placed those balls for Rapinoe to finish...


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 7, 2017)

I guess Hope Solo is ready to return but is not exactly welcome according to HS herself...

http://nypost.com/2017/08/07/hope-solo-wants-to-end-exile-but-knows-the-feelings-not-mutual/


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 8, 2017)

soccerobserver said:


> I guess Hope Solo is ready to return but is not exactly welcome according to HS herself...
> 
> http://nypost.com/2017/08/07/hope-solo-wants-to-end-exile-but-knows-the-feelings-not-mutual/


She would get the invite if I was running things.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 16, 2017)

@LadiesMan217 Congrats on your player getting called into the scrimmages against England in Oregon next week!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 24, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> @LadiesMan217 Congrats on your player getting called into the scrimmages against England in Oregon next week!


@LadiesMan217 I see that your daughter scored in the first scrimmage!  She scored the last goal I see.  Congrats.


----------



## The Driver (Aug 24, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> She would get the invite if I was running things.


If my aunt had testicles 

She would be my uncle 

You ain't running ish


----------



## MakeAPlay (Sep 11, 2017)

http://www.soccerwire.com/news/nt/international-women/u-s-u-19-womens-national-team-earns-1-0-win-over-japan-u-20s/

At least we won but the stat line is a little concerning...


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Sep 11, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> http://www.soccerwire.com/news/nt/international-women/u-s-u-19-womens-national-team-earns-1-0-win-over-japan-u-20s/
> 
> At least we won but the stat line is a little concerning...


Without re-addressing the two styles of play (direct vs controlled/possession), do you think the USDA needs to rethink the type of athletes they chose? Go away from the prototypical athlete they always chose.  To just clarify I am not referring to the less athletic, just a different mold.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Sep 11, 2017)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Without re-addressing the two styles of play (direct vs controlled/possession), do you think the USDA needs to rethink the type of athletes they chose? Go away from the prototypical athlete they always chose.  To just clarify I am not referring to the less athletic, just a different mold.


It's not the players it is the coaches.  Great athletes can be extremely technical.  The coach must instill a system and coach to it.


----------



## soccer661 (Sep 12, 2017)

Just heard the U19's beat China 2-1!
I heard the China goal was a PK.
Don't know much else, just got a few updates...


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Sep 28, 2017)

Anyone see this goal by Lynn Williams?
Watch the second goal on this clip and remember, these are professionals defending her.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjwlK6QssnWAhVM-mMKHeRnBLIQFgg2MAQ&url=http://equalizersoccer.com/2017/09/27/courage-win-shield-with-4-0-shutout-of-dash/&usg=AFQjCNGAntEEBkcYfwLrnnId39XpBX4uuA


----------



## soccerobserver (Sep 29, 2017)

RKYF, thanks for posting...Williams cut-back created so much space she could have had a BBQ in front of the net!


----------



## pulguita (Sep 29, 2017)

Jane Campbell is the most overrated GK I have ever seen.  Great move by Williams.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Oct 31, 2017)

https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2017/10/31/18/18/20171031-news-wnt-ellis-names-23-player-roster-for-final-2017-usa-matches


----------



## pulguita (Oct 31, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2017/10/31/18/18/20171031-news-wnt-ellis-names-23-player-roster-for-final-2017-usa-matches


Did she really call in Sullivan?  I hope she tells her to......  Well you can guess all the colorful words I would come up with.


----------



## gkrent (Oct 31, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Did she really call in Sullivan?  I hope she tells her to......  Well you can guess all the colorful words I would come up with.


Doesn't Stanford coaches frown upon leaving during season?


----------



## gkrent (Oct 31, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Did she really call in Sullivan?  I hope she tells her to......  Well you can guess all the colorful words I would come up with.


She is going if her names in the press release


----------



## MakeAPlay (Nov 1, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Did she really call in Sullivan?  I hope she tells her to......  Well you can guess all the colorful words I would come up with.


I thought that it was an interesting group of selections.  Apparently she is better than all of the pro players at her position.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Nov 2, 2017)

https://www.canadasoccer.com/roster-canada-soccer-s-women-s-national-team-unleashes-young-guns-for-derby-with-usa--p161243


----------



## pulguita (Nov 2, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.canadasoccer.com/roster-canada-soccer-s-women-s-national-team-unleashes-young-guns-for-derby-with-usa--p161243


So what's she gonna do?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Nov 2, 2017)

pulguita said:


> So what's she gonna do?


Not sure what you mean.  Give me a call.


----------



## pulguita (Nov 2, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Not sure what you mean.  Give me a call.


Is JF gonna miss tournament games for UCLA?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Nov 2, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Is JF gonna miss tournament games for UCLA?


I will call you in a little bit.


----------



## soccer661 (Nov 2, 2017)

I am guessing both Andi and Jessie are training with their National Teams and maybe missing the first round/game on Friday 10th...?
I think both Stanford and UCLA will be fine.
Then my guess is maybe sent back early to school to join their teams with for the 2nd round...?
Again-- I don't know anything-- I am just totally completely guessing & also on how the NT has worked in the past situations sorta similar to this. 
Map would know if I am hot or cold on this...


----------



## pulguita (Nov 2, 2017)

soccer661 said:


> I am guessing both Andi and Jessie are training with their National Teams and maybe missing the first round/game on Friday 10th...?
> I think both Stanford and UCLA will be fine.
> Then my guess is maybe sent back early to school to join their teams with for the 2nd round...?
> Again-- I don't know anything-- I am just totally completely guessing & also on how the NT has worked in the past situations sorta similar to this.
> Map would know if I am hot or cold on this...


MAP probably has the inside scoop on JF but as far as AS goes.  The NT doesn't give a rats ass - they only think about themselves.  PS that is from experience FYI.


----------



## socalkdg (Nov 3, 2017)

pulguita said:


> Jane Campbell is the most overrated GK I have ever seen.  Great move by Williams.


After watching a number of NWSL games this past summer, Adrianna Franch seemed to be the best keeper in the league.   Any reason I haven't seen her playing on the USWNT team?  I think she is much better than Alyssa Naeher.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Nov 7, 2017)

soccer661 said:


> I am guessing both Andi and Jessie are training with their National Teams and maybe missing the first round/game on Friday 10th...?
> I think both Stanford and UCLA will be fine.
> Then my guess is maybe sent back early to school to join their teams with for the 2nd round...?
> Again-- I don't know anything-- I am just totally completely guessing & also on how the NT has worked in the past situations sorta similar to this.
> Map would know if I am hot or cold on this...


UCLA will be without it's midfield maestro against San Diego State.  The team should be okay without her.  If Stanford can't beat Utah Valley State (shout out to Chris Lemay the coach and Dori Moul a former Surf player on the team) without Sullivan they might as well hand back all the hardware that they are going to win later today...


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Nov 7, 2017)

I have really enjoyed watching all the PAC 12 games this season. And look forward to the bracket play.


----------



## socalkdg (Nov 13, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> After watching a number of NWSL games this past summer, Adrianna Franch seemed to be the best keeper in the league.   Any reason I haven't seen her playing on the USWNT team?  I think she is much better than Alyssa Naeher.


I was pretty down on Alyssa Naeher.   The last couple games I've notice her playing off her line a bit more, clearing some of the over the top balls, not always kicking the ball to midfield when it is played back to her.   Maybe she is getting some actual coaching.


----------



## GoWest (Nov 29, 2017)

u18's and u20's set for camps. Anyone have any idea about u19's?


----------



## PLSAP (Dec 11, 2017)

Interesting match in the U20 Nike friendlies.  I can see the speed of play and the game developing on the women's side and it's exciting! Hopefully more and more attention will also come to it as a result. Brazil's definitely going to be a force to reckon with even more so than now in the next couple of years. We can definitely see that traditional Brazilian flair coming out in their style of play and how their players are with the ball. Definitely some flaws, seeing that not everything has tied together, but that's what these matches are for as well as the fact that these are youth teams. On our side, very interesting to see the clash in style, where our girls were much more structured with the ball, more emphasis on power, etc. Didn't seem like Girma started the game off well but I'm still watching, so hopefully she improved throughout the game


----------



## jojosoccer (Jan 19, 2018)

Womens game on Sunday Jan 21
in San Diego vs Denmark.
Hope Solo recognition for 200 Caps.
Kind of weird.... I thought she was booted off and all her drama too.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jan 19, 2018)

jojosoccer said:


> Womens game on Sunday Jan 21
> in San Diego vs Denmark.
> Hope Solo recognition for 200 Caps.
> Kind of weird.... I thought she was booted off and all her drama too.


I believe Hope Solo is running to be President of US Soccer...as part of her platform she wrote:

*Why I’m Running for President of U.S. Soccer*
Hope Solo·Thursday, December 7, 2017

“The system has been set up to discriminate and to overlook the disadvantaged because of an arrogant belief that the United States possesses the world’s best athletes, so therefore we can get away without having the world’s best soccer players. It is an outdated and a painfully evident reality that the National Teams currently face.”

Here is the link to her announcement on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/hope-solo/why-im-running-for-president-of-us-soccer/10155450707144822/


----------



## socalkdg (Jan 23, 2018)

jojosoccer said:


> Womens game on Sunday Jan 21
> in San Diego vs Denmark.
> Hope Solo recognition for 200 Caps.
> Kind of weird.... I thought she was booted off and all her drama too.


Went to this game.  Had a great time.  Nice ceremony for her, much longer than what TV presented.   Good ovation from the crowd.   Pugh looked really good.  Healthy and very fast, great shots with both her left and right, plus a great assist.


----------



## SoccerisFun (Jan 23, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Went to this game.  Had a great time.  Nice ceremony for her, much longer than what TV presented.   Good ovation from the crowd.   Pugh looked really good.  Healthy and very fast, great shots with both her left and right, plus a great assist.


Did anyone else hear that the USWNT U23 team played and lost to LAFC's 04s at the Stubhub Center a week or two ago?


----------



## espola (Jan 23, 2018)

SoccerisFun said:


> Did anyone else hear that the USWNT U23 team played and lost to LAFC's 04s at the Stubhub Center a week or two ago?


DId you mean LAFC's boys team?


----------



## outside! (Jan 23, 2018)

espola said:


> DId you mean LAFC's boys team?


If so, that is not really news. Boys and girls are different.


----------



## JJP (Jan 23, 2018)

SoccerisFun said:


> Did anyone else hear that the USWNT U23 team played and lost to LAFC's 04s at the Stubhub Center a week or two ago?


There’s a reason boys and girls play in separate divisions.  Once boys get their testosterone hit from puberty, there’s no way the girls can compete.  Puberty for boys is like legalized doping.


----------



## espola (Jan 23, 2018)

outside! said:


> If so, that is not really news. Boys and girls are different.


Happens almost every year.  The WNT is looking for some stiff competition, so they play a teen-age boys team.  Cal South 92 ODP boys beat them 5-0 in 2009.


----------



## outside! (Jan 23, 2018)

DD's team used to scrimmage a younger boys team about every six months, and would always beat them. Then one time it was a close game. The next time the boys crushed them by a bunch to zero. Mind you, many of the boys had not even grown taller than the girls yet. DD said every time she received the ball and turned, there was a boy RIGHT behind her. The girls nicknamed them "Turbo Ninjas". Boys and girls are different. DD plays DA, my son does not. I have noticed that boys will just try something during a game that they have NEVER tried before. I think it has something to do with the evil drug, testosterone. My grandmother used to say, "One teenage boy is OK, two teenage boys are dumb, three or more are retarded" (sorry for the non-PC language, it was different time).


----------



## MakeAPlay (Feb 16, 2018)

https://www.fff.fr/equipes-de-france/5/u20-feminine/derniere-selection

This is going to be interesting.  Look at France's front line.......


----------



## push_up (Feb 16, 2018)

By the looks of them, half of them are currently  in transition.  Is this a "thing" now?


----------



## outside! (Feb 16, 2018)

They look like soccer players to me.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Feb 16, 2018)

outside! said:


> They look like soccer players to me.


Let's see what you say on March 4th and 10th....


----------



## MakeAPlay (Feb 16, 2018)

@push_up you maggot have you got your daily rectal probing yet?  Why are you even on this thread?  Can your kid even read?


----------



## soccerobserver (Feb 16, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.fff.fr/equipes-de-france/5/u20-feminine/derniere-selection
> 
> This is going to be interesting.  Look at France's front line.......


When will they play each other ? March 4 & 10? I cant find the schedule...I hope our ladies kick some French posterieurs 

On a side note, when facing the French, it's helpful to realize that France is smaller than Texas


----------



## outside! (Feb 16, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> On a side note, when facing the French, it's helpful to realize that France is smaller than Texas
> View attachment 2074


But the population density is higher. Texas has miles and miles of empty land.


----------



## Lambchop (Feb 18, 2018)

JJP said:


> There’s a reason boys and girls play in separate divisions.  Once boys get their testosterone hit from puberty, there’s no way the girls can compete.  Puberty for boys is like legalized doping.[/Q


----------



## MakeAPlay (Feb 20, 2018)

Interesting roster.  This will definitely not be the final roster.  I hope they at least can win one of the 2 games against France.

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/college-soccer-articles/u20-wnt-heads-to-france-for-training-camp_aid43828


----------



## MakeAPlay (Mar 1, 2018)

England and France play nice soccer.  If they haven't passed the USWNT already it is in the pipeline.  I am really pissed that we squandered our headstart that Title IUX provided.


----------



## espola (Mar 1, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> England and France play nice soccer.  If they haven't passed the USWNT already it is in the pipeline.  I am really pissed that we squandered our headstart that Title IUX provided.


Squandered ?

http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/women/index.html


----------



## MakeAPlay (Mar 1, 2018)

espola said:


> Squandered ?
> 
> http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/women/index.html



Are you one of those that believes their press and rankings?  I can see with my own eyes that at the youth levels the world has passed us by.  It's only a matter of time before that #1 ranking is a distant memory.  The most recent starting XI will not be enough to win the next WWC and I will take your wager if you want to bet on it.


----------



## Glen (Mar 1, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Are you one of those that believes their press and rankings?  I can see with my own eyes that at the youth levels the world has passed us by.  It's only a matter of time before that #1 ranking is a distant memory.  The most recent starting XI will not be enough to win the next WWC and I will take your wager if you want to bet on it.


Which country has passed the US?  Name the country.  You can take that country.  I'll take the US, then your money.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Mar 1, 2018)

Glen said:


> Which country has passed the US?  Name the country.  You can take that country.  I'll take the US, then your money.


I will take the field like I stated and I will gladly take your money.  PM me and we can set it up...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Mar 1, 2018)

Glen said:


> Which country has passed the US?  Name the country.  You can take that country.  I'll take the US, then your money.


Oh and England and France are both going to beat us in the She Believes Cup.  We will struggle against Germany and Australia has passed us too.  Canada will pass us and my daughter's roommate is one of the reasons that it will happen.  The US doesn't have a midfielder as technical and creative as her on the full WNT or in the pipeline and that is the TRUTH...


----------



## Lambchop (Mar 1, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> When will they play each other ? March 4 & 10? I cant find the schedule...I hope our ladies kick some French posterieurs
> 
> On a side note, when facing the French, it's helpful to realize that France is smaller than Texas
> 
> View attachment 2074


Yes, but the population of France is over 66 million and Texas has about 25 million.


----------



## El Clasico (Mar 2, 2018)

Within two years, the women will be lucky to remain in the top 10, the men in the top 35.  It's the USSF death of a 1,000 cuts and it works because rather than look at their track record and run away, US player's parents fall right in line with what is being sold to them by USSF. We don't have the pipeline for the men or the women keep up on the world stage.


----------



## outside! (Mar 2, 2018)

USWNT looked pretty good against Germany yesterday.


----------



## Cskem (Mar 3, 2018)

Does anyone have a english link for the US U20 game that is going on right now?


----------



## push_up (Mar 4, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> I will take the field like I stated and I will gladly take your money.  PM me and we can set it up...


MAP is as good at picking WNT success as he/she is at picking national champions.


----------



## Dos Equis (Mar 4, 2018)

outside! said:


> USWNT looked pretty good against Germany yesterday.


Did not see that game, only the highlights, but we were lucky to get a tie today against a French team that was destroyed  by England.  

Not sure what others are watching, but our players today, on average, did not have the technical skill of the French team, and far too many of them held the ball too long and turned it over (that is, when they were not turning it over  due to their subpar first touches or overly hopeful long passes).


----------



## espola (Mar 6, 2018)

Soccerspew said:


> http://www.soccerspew.com/2018/03/02/she-believes-cup/


What does "win the competition and ease pressure on under fire boss Jill Ellis" mean?


----------



## bruinblue14 (Mar 6, 2018)

Saw that U20s played recently with a 1-0 win a few days ago and a 2-2 tie today vs France. Have heard lots of chatter about the world catching up to the US women sooner rather than later. Does this confirm those assertions or was this more of fluke or experimental roster situation? Didn’t watch either game. I have a younger so I don’t really know any of the players that age.


----------



## Cskem (Mar 6, 2018)

bruinblue14 said:


> Saw that U20s played recently with a 1-0 win a few days ago and a 2-2 tie today vs France. Have heard lots of chatter about the world catching up to the US women sooner rather than later. Does this confirm those assertions or was this more of fluke or experimental roster situation? Didn’t watch either game. I have a younger so I don’t really know any of the players that age.


Can you tell me where you were able to watch the game today, I couldn't find the link, I was able to watch the one a couple of days ago but not today's game?


----------



## bruinblue14 (Mar 6, 2018)

Cskem said:


> Can you tell me where you were able to watch the game today, I couldn't find the link, I was able to watch the one a couple of days ago but not today's game?


I only saw the scores on social media. Didn’t catch any games although I would’ve liked to.


----------



## outside! (Mar 6, 2018)

Soccerspew said:


> http://www.soccerspew.com/2018/03/02/she-believes-cup/


From the article about the USWNT vs. France,

"Despite dominating possession, the US fell...."

Was he watching a different game? The US did NOT dominate possession against France. The did against Germany.


----------



## pulguita (Mar 6, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Oh and England and France are both going to beat us in the She Believes Cup.  We will struggle against Germany and Australia has passed us too.  Canada will pass us and my daughter's roommate is one of the reasons that it will happen.  The US doesn't have a midfielder as technical and creative as her on the full WNT or in the pipeline and that is the TRUTH...


I will take a page from your book and call bs.  We will see this fall now that she is fully healthy.  Remember a player that you yourself once called a savant.  Just cause the staff at the USWNT has their heads so far up..well you know.  There is one that was in and now out of the pipeline and really doesn't even care anymore.  The best players aren't even playing stateside anymore.   See Henderson's latest blog entry on the world's best 11.   Besides she intimidates the shit out of them and will "one day be a coach" to quote a certain individual.  But as long as the tools are in charge we will continue to fall to mediocrity.


----------



## oh canada (Mar 6, 2018)

Gotta look at this from business perspective as well.  Ellis can't cut all the "old" women bc those players are locked into $$ deals with Nike et al.  If you think this doesn't play a factor then you don't understand corporate sponsorships and partnerships.  Ellis is stuck trying to morph a team of mostly mediocre-skilled players (though fast and hard working) into a skill-based playing team.  Not going to work unless a different type of player is developed and chosen, similar to the players we are now seeing light up the field for pick your country (england, france, netherlands, spain, colombia, canada, mexico...).


----------



## espola (Mar 6, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Gotta look at this from business perspective as well.  Ellis can't cut all the "old" women bc those players are locked into $$ deals with Nike et al.  If you think this doesn't play a factor then you don't understand corporate sponsorships and partnerships.  Ellis is stuck trying to morph a team of mostly mediocre-skilled players (though fast and hard working) into a skill-based playing team.  Not going to work unless a different type of player is developed and chosen, similar to the players we are now seeing light up the field for pick your country (england, france, netherlands, spain, colombia, canada, mexico...).


Nonsense.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Mar 7, 2018)

pulguita said:


> I will take a page from your book and call bs.  We will see this fall now that she is fully healthy.  Remember a player that you yourself once called a savant.  Just cause the staff at the USWNT has their heads so far up..well you know.  There is one that was in and now out of the pipeline and really doesn't even care anymore.  The best players aren't even playing stateside anymore.   See Henderson's latest blog entry on the world's best 11.   Besides she intimidates the shit out of them and will "one day be a coach" to quote a certain individual.  But as long as the tools are in charge we will continue to fall to mediocrity.


I heard that she is back and I am happy for it.  Those guys need a player like her.  Fleming is on another level and makes everyone around her better.  My only critique is that she isn't selfish enough at times.  She literally never stops working.


----------



## Glen (Mar 7, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> I will take the field like I stated and I will gladly take your money.  PM me and we can set it up...


The US wasn't better than the field 30 years ago.  The fact that you want to take the field against one team shows that even you know the US hasn't been passed by (yet).


----------



## outside! (Mar 8, 2018)

Soccerspew said:


> Final write up on She Believes Cup:
> http://www.soccerspew.com/category/epl/


Everyone has opinions, yours are obviously different than mine. I thought Alex Morgan did a lot of great work off the ball as well as with the ball. While Mallory Pugh had some awesome moments in the last game, she seemed a bit out of sorts at times with several out of character poor first touches.


----------



## socalkdg (Mar 9, 2018)

outside! said:


> Everyone has opinions, yours are obviously different than mine. I thought Alex Morgan did a lot of great work off the ball as well as with the ball. While Mallory Pugh had some awesome moments in the last game, she seemed a bit out of sorts at times with several out of character poor first touches.


In the England game she was the best player in the game.   As she gets older she will be a force to reckon with.  She can do so many things and she is still learning.


----------



## socalkdg (Mar 9, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> Did not see that game, only the highlights, but we were lucky to get a tie today against a French team that was destroyed  by England.
> 
> Not sure what others are watching, but our players today, on average, did not have the technical skill of the French team, and far too many of them held the ball too long and turned it over (that is, when they were not turning it over  due to their subpar first touches or overly hopeful long passes).


France played with a completely different team than they did vs England.   The U.S. was flat vs France, and made too many turnovers in their own end that led to transition attacks.

Against England the U.S. dominated most of the game, but couldn't finish.  62% possession advantage, with England not even getting a shot on goal until late in the 2nd half.


----------



## outside! (Mar 9, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> In the England game she was the best player in the game.   As she gets older she will be a force to reckon with.  She can do so many things and she is still learning.


Ms. Pugh did have some of the best plays of the game. I was just surprised at a the number of 5 yard first touches she had in that game. When she was on, she was great, but to me she just seemed not quite full strength at times when compared to some of her other games. I would personally pick Davidson as US player of the game against England (and possibly the tournament). I watched every US game and was encouraged by what I saw. The performance on the field coupled with the depth of the players that are currently injured like Ertz and Lavelle seem to paint a brighter picture for the USWNT's near future than many predict. Then again, what do I know. I never played the game at a high level.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Mar 10, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> I heard that she is back and I am happy for it.  Those guys need a player like her.  Fleming is on another level and makes everyone around her better.  My only critique is that she isn't selfish enough at times.  She literally never stops working.


That’s a good problem.


----------



## SocalPapa (Mar 12, 2018)

Does Macario's getting called up to play for the U23's in the Thorns Spring Invitational mean anything in regard to her USWNT eligibility?  Or is it irrelevant as they are just scrimmages against pro teams?  I don't know how she looked in the first match yesterday but see she got the only goal for the US.


----------



## outside! (Mar 12, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> Does Macario's getting called up to play for the U23's in the Thorns Spring Invitational mean anything in regard to her USWNT eligibility?  Or is it irrelevant as they are just scrimmages against pro teams?  I don't know how she looked in the first match yesterday but see she got the only goal for the US.


That would be great for the US if she can play for the USWNT. I do not know what her desires are however. The fact that she is not playing for the Brazilian NT is interesting. In my opinion she could make either team.


----------



## MWN (Mar 12, 2018)

outside! said:


> From the article about the USWNT vs. France,
> 
> "Despite dominating possession, the US fell...."
> 
> Was he watching a different game? The US did NOT dominate possession against France. The did against Germany.


In the writers defense, I think you are confused.  The US did dominate possession against France (US 58% v. France 42% - http://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=501087).  The US was dominated by Germany when it came to possession (US 43% v. Germany 57%) http://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=501088.


----------



## outside! (Mar 13, 2018)

MWN said:


> In the writers defense, I think you are confused.  The US did dominate possession against France (US 58% v. France 42% - http://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=501087).  The US was dominated by Germany when it came to possession (US 43% v. Germany 57%) http://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=501088.


Fair enough, I was wrong on the "possession" numbers. I was not wrong on the games. Germany had very few quality chances against the US and was lucky they didn't lose by more than a goal. France on the other hand made many good chances and the US was lucky to tie that game.


----------



## soccerobserver (Apr 6, 2018)

Props to K Johnson from USC College Cup fame for nice goal vs USWNT yesterday

https://twitter.com/FOXSoccer/status/982054975986544640


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## Ricky Fandango (Apr 6, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> Props to K Johnson from USC College Cup fame for nice goal vs USWNT yesterday
> 
> https://twitter.com/FOXSoccer/status/982054975986544640


Big props to former UCI standout, and WCFC/Slammers player, K.Palacios getting the start for Mexico


----------



## beachbum (Apr 7, 2018)

US needs to figure out goalie spot, Naeher makes huge fundamental mistakes in almost every game.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 8, 2018)

Free for all in Houston in the first half.....


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## Ricky Fandango (Apr 8, 2018)

Lion Eyes said:


> Free for all in Houston in the first half.....


I thought the Mexican team looked very good.
Probably because most of them are American.
Big congrats to #18 on her first goal for El Tri.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Apr 8, 2018)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I thought the Mexican team looked very good.
> Probably because most of them are American.
> Big congrats to #18 on her first goal for El Tri.


They should tighten that rule up maybe.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 8, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> They should tighten that rule up maybe.


Nah...this way at least a few more deserving kids get a chance to continue chasing their dreams.
It's all good.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Apr 8, 2018)

Lion Eyes said:


> Nah...this way at least a few more deserving kids get a chance to continue chasing their dreams.
> It's all good.





Sheriff Joe said:


> They should tighten that rule up maybe.


It 's good for the game.
Mexico doesnt have the development for girls we have here.
I look at it as a big atta girl for America.

It also makes the USWT look a little closer at some they might miss.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 11, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/sports/soccer/manchester-city-psg-women-icc.html?smid=tw-share

This will be really cool if this happens and definitely must see TV for women's soccer fans.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Apr 11, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/sports/soccer/fifa-womens-league.html

Wow!!  It seems that the rest of the world is trying to grow the game.  Let's see if US Soccer (the subsidiary for SUM) joins in on growing the game.  Europe is going to pass us if we don't take this off of autopilot.


----------



## outside! (Apr 11, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/sports/soccer/manchester-city-psg-women-icc.html?smid=tw-share
> 
> This will be really cool if this happens and definitely must see TV for women's soccer fans.


Very cool. Hopefully it will get some air time.


----------



## GoWest (Apr 16, 2018)

Congrats to the four Cali club players chosen to represent in Italy and Slovenia. Way to go!

https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2018/04/16/19/14/20180416-news-u16gnt-heads-to-2018-u17-womens-torneo-delle-nazioni-in-italy-and-slovenia


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## jojosoccer (Apr 16, 2018)

I only counted 3....


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## Glen (May 31, 2018)

This is interesting.  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2778790-jaelene-hinkle-refused-uswnt-call-as-christianity-clashed-with-pro-lgbtq-jerseys?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial


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## Justafan (Jun 1, 2018)

Glen said:


> This is interesting.  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2778790-jaelene-hinkle-refused-uswnt-call-as-christianity-clashed-with-pro-lgbtq-jerseys?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial


Even if you disagree with her, you have to respect it.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 1, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Even if you disagree with her, you have to respect it.


No you don’t.  You don’t need to respect Dixie Walker for refusing to put on a Dodgers uniform because they signed Jackie Robinson. You don’t have to respect any of the many Muslim athletes who’ve refused to compete against Jews in the Olympics.  You don’t need to respect Bob Jones University for refusing to admit blacks based on its sincerely held religious bigotry.  Being a bigot because of religion doesn’t make you deserving of respect. It just makes you a bigot. Good riddance to this homophobe.

I at least hope you are consistent and respect Kaepernick for kneeling during the National Anthem. And Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the Olympics.


----------



## GoWest (Jun 2, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Good riddance to this homophobe.


Your tolerance is deafening.


----------



## baldref (Jun 2, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> No you don’t.  You don’t need to respect Dixie Walker for refusing to put on a Dodgers uniform because they signed Jackie Robinson. You don’t have to respect any of the many Muslim athletes who’ve refused to compete against Jews in the Olympics.  You don’t need to respect Bob Jones University for refusing to admit blacks based on its sincerely held religious bigotry.  Being a bigot because of religion doesn’t make you deserving of respect. It just makes you a bigot. Good riddance to this homophobe.
> 
> I at least hope you are consistent and respect Kaepernick for kneeling during the National Anthem. And Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the Olympics.


so this is the same intolerance of a differing view that your railing against. which intolerance is worse? it's amazing that this is the norm anymore. 

i recognize her ability to make that difficult choice and even though i don't agree with it, it is her choice. she didn't hurt anyone, call them names, 0r make any wild comparisons like you have. she has beliefs that she stood by. you're position is less defendable.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 2, 2018)

she has the right to make this decision, it doesn't mean her beliefs should be respected.


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## baldref (Jun 2, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> she has the right to make this decision, it doesn't mean her beliefs should be respected.


I never said they should
I said her right to have them should be respected. As should any belief you would have. Who’s the judge of what’s right or wrong? You? Me? 
My point was the all the people calling out intolerances by being intolerant. Do you see the irony?


----------



## davin (Jun 2, 2018)

baldref said:


> I never said they should
> I said her right to have them should be respected. As should any belief you would have. Who’s the judge of what’s right or wrong? You? Me?
> My point was the all the people calling out intolerances by being intolerant. Do you see the irony?


Do you respect Kaepernick’s decision to kneel for the anthem?


----------



## baldref (Jun 2, 2018)

davin said:


> Do you respect Kaepernick’s decision to kneel for the anthem?


Nope. Not at all. But you’re making comparisons that are slightly different. I respect his right to his opinion and his right to protest. But not when he’s being told by his employer “you can’t do it here”. 
Do you respect my right to have that opinion?


----------



## davin (Jun 2, 2018)

baldref said:


> Nope. Not at all. But you’re making comparisons that are slightly different. I respect his right to his opinion and his right to protest. But not when he’s being told by his employer “you can’t do it here”.
> Do you respect my right to have that opinion?


I respect everyone’s right there have an opinion, but I don’t respect when people are inconsistent with their opinions. This is one example of that. BTW - the 49ers never told him that.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 2, 2018)

baldref said:


> so this is the same intolerance of a differing view that your railing against. which intolerance is worse? it's amazing that this is the norm anymore.
> 
> i recognize her ability to make that difficult choice and even though i don't agree with it, it is her choice. she didn't hurt anyone, call them names, 0r make any wild comparisons like you have. she has beliefs that she stood by. you're position is less defendable.


Your argument requires you to believe the civil rights of someone who is gay are far less important than the civil rights of someone who is black.  That is the only difference between Dixie Walker and the homophobe.  Neither deserves the least respect.

Your argument also requires you to believe that one particular religion is entitled to preference and more deserving of respect than others (or none). That is the only difference between the homophobe and the Muslim who refuses to compete against Jews. Or maybe you previously posted something about respecting a Muslim for standing up for his beliefs?

This example is particularly compelling because, unless you concede the Muslim protester deserves the same respect, it establishes that it isn’t the fact that someone protests based on a sincerely held religious belief that deserves respect. Rather, that is just an excuse and a weak attempt to rationalize and justify her particular manner of bigotry because you deem it to be more justified than bigotry against Jews, blacks or (as it relates to my mocking of the homophobe) your preferred form of religion. 

You think it doesn’t hurt gays to repeatedly tell them that their rights aren’t as important as the rights of other people?  That just makes you clueless and part of the problem.  It isn’t like she quietly told US Soccer no thanks and moved on. She affirmatively went out and told people how she feels about gays. And when that didn’t gain traction, she voluntarily appeared on the 700 club a year later to further publicize her position and help establish her “brand” as a Christian “martyr”,  from which I’m sure she will receive numerous paid speaking engagements to supplement her paltry salary.  She’s no victim.  She got what bigots who publicize their bigotry deserve and has no business representing our country. 

If only more people like this homophobe engaged in self-separation of church and state, our country would be a better place.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 2, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Even if you disagree with her, you have to respect it.


There is a difference between honoring and valuing the right to have an opinion vs respecting the belief itself. I believe she absolutely has the right to have her beliefs and make decisions for herself based on those beliefs but doesn't mean we have to or should respect her and her beliefs.


----------



## baldref (Jun 2, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> he civil rights of someone who is gay are far less important than the civil rights of someone who is black. That is the only difference between Dixie Walker and the homophobe. Neither deserves the least respect.


This is complete and utter bs. 
My post was on the hypocrisy of yours

I’ll bow out of any more political discussions

Cheers


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 2, 2018)

From an article written last year:

"Sports should encourage the exercise of civility. In stepping onto the field or into the stands, we should agree to disagree about a wide range of personal and political issues. This is not just to be polite. It is to ensure that all are welcome in our national and professional sports. Americans need a place where they can set aside their partisan differences and just be Americans. Our divided, bitter nation desperately needs truly inclusive civility."

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/06/19558/


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 2, 2018)

baldref said:


> This is complete and utter bs.
> My post was on the hypocrisy of yours
> 
> I’ll bow out of any more political discussions
> ...


That was my goal.  

I fully understand that most people are unwilling to accept that praising someone for homophobia is no more admirable or acceptable than praising someone for racism or for believing in different religion.  But if I cause someone to at least stop doing it, great.  Hopefully the homophobe Jaelene Hinkle will follow your lead.


----------



## push_up (Jun 2, 2018)

Luckily, her personal choice is between her and God.  I doubt either of them give a shit about you calling them homophobic.  How is that for some perspective!  Lol.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 2, 2018)

push_up said:


> Luckily, her personal choice is between her and God.  I doubt either of them give a shit about you calling them homophobic.  How is that for some perspective!  Lol.


I think what you meant is that she doesn’t give a shit that she is homophobic. 

And her personal choice to be a bigot isn’t just between her and her god, since she made sure to let everyone know how she feels in her 700 Club interview.  She also made her personal choice between her and US Soccer.  And although US Soccer probably dumped her because she just isn’t good enough, I’m cool if they made the decision due to her lack of moral values.


----------



## push_up (Jun 2, 2018)

That is not what I said but nice try.  It puts your petty name calling into perspective.  A perspective you fail to grasp.  I am ok with that.  Carry on.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 2, 2018)

push_up said:


> That is not what I said but nice try.  It puts your petty name calling into perspective.  A perspective you fail to grasp.  I am ok with that.  Carry on.


Hello. I’m not sure someone who claims LGBT folk suffer from mental illness is the best person to take this position.

Joy Behar was right by the way. You have it backwards.


----------



## push_up (Jun 2, 2018)

Joy Behar.  Lmao.


----------



## baldref (Jun 3, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> That was my goal.
> 
> I fully understand that most people are unwilling to accept that praising someone for homophobia is no more admirable or acceptable than praising someone for racism or for believing in different religion.  But if I cause someone to at least stop doing it, great.  Hopefully the homophobe Jaelene Hinkle will follow your lead.


you didn't stop anything. and your rhetoric is old and tired and trollish.

have a great tolerant day


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2018)

baldref said:


> This is complete and utter bs.
> My post was on the hypocrisy of yours
> 
> I’ll bow out of any more political discussions
> ...


More interesting than a voluntarily public fool is an unrepentant voluntarily public fool.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 3, 2018)

baldref said:


> you didn't stop anything. and your rhetoric is old and tired and trollish.
> 
> have a great tolerant day


People who hate don’t get a free pass on bigotry  because their religion tells them it’s ok.  I’m certainly not going to respect someone for stating a hateful opinion, just as you don’t respect my hateful opinion. 

Now do you understand the purpose for the Joy Behar comment?  Not because I believe it, but because it pretty clearly points out your hypocrisy. You think we should respect a bigot for stating her bigoty opinion, but you don’t need to respect mine.  Where was your post saying that people can disagree with my opinion but we need to respect it?

In other words, like I said earlier, it isn’t the fact that she spoke up that you believe people must “respect”, it’s her hateful opinion.


----------



## davin (Jun 3, 2018)

push_up said:


> Luckily, her personal choice is between her and God.  I doubt either of them give a shit about you calling them homophobic.  How is that for some perspective!  Lol.


Ironicallly, the god that she’s using to justify her bigoted stance is the same god that has been used by other bigots to justify their racism towards African Americans like her. A racist, homophobic god - just awesome!


----------



## MWN (Jun 3, 2018)

The problem with this discussion is that it represents everything that is right and wrong with America.   Its also steeped in religion, which makes it an argument that is unwinnable.  The very existence of this forum is rooted in principals of free speech, which is inextricably intertwined with freedom to practice one's religion.  We start to go off the rails with a person's religious practices impact the rights of others.

As a preliminary matter, I believe it would be best if our National Team refrained from engaging in any kind of extraneous advocacy unrelated primarily to soccer.  Abide by the law, don't discriminate and play. 

As I understand the player's decision, she chose not to wear a jersey that the National Team elected to wear to honor LGBTQ month.  This jersey deviated from the typical red, white and blue by incorporating rainbow numbers and would be later auctioned off to raise money for LGBTQ charities.  

The player refused to wear the jersey based on her religious beliefs.  She did not state that her motivation was to not play with gay teammates, rather, she refused to support the extraneous advocacy of the National Team as contrary to her religious beliefs.  The player has every right to make a personal choice to refuse to support the national team because the national team has chosen to openly advocate for a non-soccer related issue.

Sports are entertainment and from a national and international perspective we should endeavor to be an inclusive as possible.  We should also refrain from attempting to use sports for political/social/religious advocacy beyond adhering to a policy of being intolerant against intolerance.


----------



## baldref (Jun 3, 2018)

espola said:


> More interesting than a voluntarily public fool is an unrepentant voluntarily public fool.


You’re an idiot
But you know that


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2018)

baldref said:


> You’re an idiot
> But you know that


q.e.d.


----------



## Lurker (Jun 3, 2018)

If a person truly understands the definition of Bigot, that person would understand that the use of hate speech and of a belief  system with differing  views from their own demonstrates Bigotry more than anything she has done.  She merely chose to not WEAR a shirt that was in support of something that is not congruent with her belief system.  She has NOT demonstrated intolerance and in fact has expressed love for all no matter what. The only person impacted by her actions was her. She plays and shows respect for teammates who believe otherwise on a regular basis and played with the National team prior tp declining the opportunity.  If she refused to play and/or condemned players of the LGBTQ community with hateful words or actions,  then she would be intolerant and a Bigot.
One main difference between  the situation with Colin and the situation with Jaelene is that each football player with a different belief system was able to choose to kneel or not and still play the game they love.   Jaelene did not have that choice.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jun 3, 2018)

espola said:


> More interesting than a voluntarily public fool is an unrepentant voluntarily public fool.


You're the expert.


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2018)

Ricky Fandango said:


> You're the expert.


Got some examples?


----------



## GoWest (Jun 3, 2018)

MWN said:


> I believe it would be best if our National Team refrained from engaging in any kind of extraneous advocacy unrelated primarily to soccer. Abide by the law, don't discriminate and play.


Boom! The ONLY colors any US national team should be wearing is red, white and blue. Everything else is just unnecessary noise. Did I mention, we're only here for the soccer?


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 4, 2018)

Lurker said:


> If a person truly understands the definition of Bigot, that person would understand that the use of hate speech and of a belief  system with differing  views from their own demonstrates Bigotry more than anything she has done.  She merely chose to not WEAR a shirt that was in support of something that is not congruent with her belief system.  She has NOT demonstrated intolerance and in fact has expressed love for all no matter what. The only person impacted by her actions was her. She plays and shows respect for teammates who believe otherwise on a regular basis and played with the National team prior tp declining the opportunity.  If she refused to play and/or condemned players of the LGBTQ community with hateful words or actions,  then she would be intolerant and a Bigot.
> One main difference between  the situation with Colin and the situation with Jaelene is that each football player with a different belief system was able to choose to kneel or not and still play the game they love.   Jaelene did not have that choice.


No you don’t get to make yourself feel better by saying anyone who doesn’t respect your bigotry is a bigot. It’s that simple. Wow, you people are getting pretty desperate.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 4, 2018)

MWN said:


> The problem with this discussion is that it represents everything that is right and wrong with America.   Its also steeped in religion, which makes it an argument that is unwinnable.  The very existence of this forum is rooted in principals of free speech, which is inextricably intertwined with freedom to practice one's religion.  We start to go off the rails with a person's religious practices impact the rights of others.
> 
> As a preliminary matter, I believe it would be best if our National Team refrained from engaging in any kind of extraneous advocacy unrelated primarily to soccer.  Abide by the law, don't discriminate and play.
> 
> ...


The belief that US Soccer should stay out of non-soccer issues is finally a legitimate point, more or less. It is certainly more so than the moron who thinks people must respect Hinkle’s homophobic opinion, especially when carefully timed to coincide with the start of gay pride month to make the most offensive possible impact on a show with a long and inglorious track record supporting oppression of gays, blacks, foreigners and pretty much every other group that god allegedly tells “racist grandpa” founder Pat Robertson to denigrate.

A couple counter-points. First, USSF is a private entity. As such, it has the same right to slap rainbow numbers on a jersey that In-n-Out has to put religious slogans on cups and Hobby Lobby to refuse birth control coverage on its health plan. I don’t think the government even funds US Soccer, so you can’t even claim tax dollars are being used to support a historically oppressed group. But religious oppressors don’t to go down that road anyway because....

Even if we US Soccer were a government entity by virtue of it being granted monopoly status, I guess I’m fine with not supporting LBGT causes as soon as the US Government stops supporting religious ones.  We have a congressionally mandated national day of prayer, our tax dollars pay a congressional chaplain, allof our money specifically references god, our kids say the religious pledge of allegiance in public schools, and the Catholic Church alone has received more than $2 billion in taxpayer money since 2012.  If the government is going to stop supporting oppressed minority groups, it should stop supporting the religions that oppress them.

Next, of course Hinkle has the right to decide that hating gay people is more important to her than playing on the WNT. But I don’t need to respect it, and the WNT certainly doesn’t need to either.  If she wants to continue to publicly offend her employer, many of her co-workers, and a significant portion of the customer base a year after the fact, she gets she deserves.  Like I said earlier, good riddance.

Finally, you’re wrong that I won’t “win” this argument. Certainly, my in-your-face approach will never change anyone’s mind.  But the days in which bigoted people could make their bigoty positions publicly known without getting called out and shamed are over.  Sure, they’ll still state them here because they can hide in cowardly anonymity, but constant reminders that people no longer put up with it means they sure aren’t going to discuss Hinkle the homophobe’s “bravery” in anything other than hushed tones (if at all) at work, on the soccer sidelines, or anywhere other than their homes and steepled houses of bigotry.  In fact, I’m just cleaning up the remnants of a battle I’ve already won.  A generation ago, people used religious bigotry to prevent a black man from marrying a white woman and from eating BBQ in Alabama.  Now, that same black man can marry a white dude and eat ribs anywhere he wants.  And the WNT can therefore dump you for not representing American values.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 4, 2018)

Lurker said:


> One main difference between  the situation with Colin and the situation with Jaelene is that each football player with a different belief system was able to choose to kneel or not and still play the game they love.   Jaelene did not have that choice.


Uh, Kaepernick was blackballed as a result and therefore deprived of his ability to play the sport he loved. Going forward, anyone who follows his lead will be fined to the point that they cannot either. 

Hinkle, in the other hand, gets to keep playing the sport she loves, just not on the WNT. Interestingly, Rapinoe had the same difficult choice as Hinkle, which is she doesn’t get to play on the WNT either if she continued taking a knee.  In response to her choice, you don’t see Rapinoe dropping out and telling Christians how they’re second-class citizens on Easter Sunday.  Unlike Hinkle, Rapinoe has some character.

Go ahead and continue the anti-gay agenda folks, but it’s a lost cause.  Even the US Supreme Court today couldn’t muster the homophobia necessary to endorse homophobic cake makers refusing to sell wedding cakes to gays.  You’re a just gonna have to wait for the apocalypse now.


----------



## Lurker (Jun 4, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Uh, Kaepernick was blackballed as a result and therefore deprived of his ability to play the sport he loved. Going forward, anyone who follows his lead will be fined to the point that they cannot either.
> 
> Hinkle, in the other hand, gets to keep playing the sport she loves, just not on the WNT. Interestingly, Rapinoe had the same difficult choice as Hinkle, which is she doesn’t get to play on the WNT either if she continued taking a knee.  In response to her choice, you don’t see Rapinoe dropping out and telling Christians how they’re second-class citizens on Easter Sunday.  Unlike Hinkle, Rapinoe has some character.
> 
> Go ahead and continue the anti-gay agenda folks, but it’s a lost cause.  Even the US Supreme Court today couldn’t muster the homophobia necessary to endorse homophobic cake makers refusing to sell wedding cakes to gays.  You’re a just gonna have to wait for the apocalypse now.


Nothing I said even hinted at being Anti-Gay.  I encourage you to look up the definitions of Bigoet and Intolerant.  Your words meet the criteria for both.  You seem to have a lot of hate for people that don’t agree with you.


----------



## JJP (Jun 4, 2018)

So, channeling my inner Martin Luther King, Jr., can I just say that I have a dream that one day girls who like boys and girls who like girls will one day play with balls together on the same team.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 5, 2018)

MWN said:


> The problem with this discussion is that it represents everything that is right and wrong with America.   Its also steeped in religion, which makes it an argument that is unwinnable.  The very existence of this forum is rooted in principals of free speech, which is inextricably intertwined with freedom to practice one's religion.  We start to go off the rails with a person's religious practices impact the rights of others.
> 
> As a preliminary matter, I believe it would be best if our National Team refrained from engaging in any kind of extraneous advocacy unrelated primarily to soccer.  Abide by the law, don't discriminate and play.
> 
> ...


Sports or another other platform that gains notice is a great place for social advocacy.  Religious or political advocacy not do much.  Teams participate in breast cancer awareness month, Black History month l, etcetera.  The first shots of the Civil Rights movement were fired by the white teammates of Jackie Robinson and the O’Malley family that refused to have their guy (a sports icon even then) be treated as less than equal.

You are right about much of what you said but I adamantly disagree with sports not being a platform for trying to bring about change.


----------



## push_up (Jun 5, 2018)

This is awesome.  It is nice to know that you agree with her decision not to wear a jersey that promotes social change.  It is good to see you being inclusive.


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 6, 2018)

push_up said:


> This is awesome.  It is nice to know that you agree with her decision not to wear a jersey that promotes social change.  It is good to see you being inclusive.


If only Hinkle the homophobe, you or the 700 Club were inclusive.  Publicly opposing equal rights for LGBT individuls is exactly the opposite of inclusive.  It’s not inclusive to oppose gay marriage or someone’s right to adopt because they’re gay. It’s not inclusive to refuse service to someone because they’re gay.  It isn’t inclusive to lament that being gay isn’t a mental illness, which is what you do and also what your bigoted, racist buddy Pat Robertson did when he aired the soccer homophobe’s video on his 700 Club.  It’s not inclusive to pray a hurricane hits Disney world because it supports gay rights, as Robertson also did on the 700 Club. (Ironically, the next hurricane to hit the U.S. took a divine turn away from Florida and hit the home of the 700 Club.  True story). 

No, Hinkle does not get to publicly proclaim she supports the exclusion of gays and continuing violation of their civil rights without getting called out by US Soccer or anyone else who understands religion doesn’t give you a free pass to be a horrible person.  I know it’s almost impossible now for people like you and her to support the oppression of minority groups using religion as an excuse. But, hey, if you don’t like it here, you can go back to where Jesus came from.


----------



## MWN (Jun 6, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Sports or another other platform that gains notice is a great place for social advocacy.  Religious or political advocacy not do much.  Teams participate in breast cancer awareness month, Black History month l, etcetera.  The first shots of the Civil Rights movement were fired by the white teammates of Jackie Robinson and the O’Malley family that refused to have their guy (a sports icon even then) be treated as less than equal.
> 
> You are right about much of what you said but I adamantly disagree with sports not being a platform for trying to bring about change.


I appreciate what you are saying and agree that there is significant power in sports to challenge biases.  Where we diverge is the limits of that power and how its best use.  The short answer (without getting into a thesis on implicit bias, tribal wiring, religion, etc.) is that sport is an excellent vehicle to address internal overt discrimination, which helps break down external implicit bias barriers and a lousy vehicle to actively advocate for/against controversial subjects.

I'm glad you bring up Jackie Robinson, which is the perfect example of how sports should be used.  When the O'Malley family approached Jackie Robinson to wear a Dodger uniform, O'Malley did so knowing that the subversive effect could only work if Robinson "played ball" so to speak by not fighting back.  Just play the game and don't get baited into a fight on or off the field despite what teammates, opponents, fans, umpires, writers, broadcasters and hotel managers said or did.  O'Malley understood that he could only use the Dodgers and baseball to make a subversive statement and force bigots to question core tenants of their beliefs.  

Sports can only do so much (_which I think is what you are saying by differentiating "social" from "political and religious" reform_).  Real political and social change comes from the populace challenging the institutions.  In the context of race discrimination, the real fight would be by the likes of Rosa Parks, the Greensboro Four, Linda Brown, Ruby Bridges, Dr. Martin Luther King, the millions of marchers and the attorneys that fought in the courts.  Sports must set the example of inclusiveness, but shouldn't be the tip of the spear because it would lose its impact (as O'Malley and Robinson knew).

Over the years, our Nation and other Nations have attempted to use sports to drive political change and its failed.  The US/International boycott of the 1980 Summer Olympic games because the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan did nothing (Soviet's did not leave until 1988/89).  The 1984 "retaliatory" boycott of the 1984 Summer Olympic games by the Soviets ... just petty tit-for-tat.

In fact, prior to the 1936 Olympic games, there were calls to boycott the Berlin games.  On the one side, Avery Brundage argued politics had no place in sport and on the other, Jeremiah Mahoney and Ernst Lee Jancke arguing for a boycott.  Brundage won by a close vote and gave the world an opportunity to see the great Jessie Owens destroy the Olympic's racial hierarchy, humiliated Hitler and challenged stereotypes in one fell swoop.  Arguably, it was Owens (not O'Malley and Robinson) that represented the first shot in destroying theories of racial superiority, even here in the U.S. and it almost didn't happen.

Religious fundamentalism presents a bigger and longer term problem.  Whether its fundamentalist/political Christianity, Judaism or Islam, we have billions of folks in this world that hold beliefs that are antithetical to basic human rights.  Entertainment (music, movies, sports, etc.) can and will play a subversive role by changing perspective of the members, but real change will only come when doctrinal adjustments to these various religions are made by the theocrats at the urging of the members or these religions are abandoned altogether.  

History has taught us that when entertainment devices step over the line, those devices get shut off and loose their effectiveness.  We see it today in various theocracies, such as, the Vatican, Iran (Shia) and Sunni political Islamic states.  Ultimately, this is my concern and I don't want to see soccer or other sports engage in direct advocacy of polarizing subjects because it risks having its real power muted.

Sports is an opportunity to put everybody, regardless of race, religion, politics, creed, sexual preference, etc., on a field with everybody playing by the same rules.  Its optimizes how society "should be" through the ultimate example of fair play and challenges bias, bigotry and prejudices.  In sum, I don't believe we should risk muting the tremendous subversive power of sports on social issues by using it for direct advocacy.


----------



## push_up (Jun 6, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> If only Hinkle the homophobe, you or the 700 Club were inclusive.  Publicly opposing equal rights for LGBT individuls is exactly the opposite of inclusive.  It’s not inclusive to oppose gay marriage or someone’s right to adopt because they’re gay. It’s not inclusive to refuse service to someone because they’re gay.  It isn’t inclusive to lament that being gay isn’t a mental illness, which is what you do and also what your bigoted, racist buddy Pat Robertson did when he aired the soccer homophobe’s video on his 700 Club.  It’s not inclusive to pray a hurricane hits Disney world because it supports gay rights, as Robertson also did on the 700 Club. (Ironically, the next hurricane to hit the U.S. took a divine turn away from Florida and hit the home of the 700 Club.  True story).
> 
> No, Hinkle does not get to publicly proclaim she supports the exclusion of gays and continuing violation of their civil rights without getting called out by US Soccer or anyone else who understands religion doesn’t give you a free pass to be a horrible person.  I know it’s almost impossible now for people like you and her to support the oppression of minority groups using religion as an excuse. But, hey, if you don’t like it here, you can go back to where Jesus came from.


What is ironic is that you don't see your own bigotry.  Now you can just reread it. Thanks for taking the bait.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 6, 2018)

push_up said:


> What is ironic is that you don't see your own bigotry.  Now you can just reread it. Thanks for taking the bait.


Coming from a pedophile that is pretty ironic.  Do you have to disclose that you are a sexual predator to the teams that you play against?


----------



## Dos Equis (Jun 6, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> If only Hinkle the homophobe, you or the 700 Club were inclusive.  Publicly opposing equal rights for LGBT individuls is exactly the opposite of inclusive.  It’s not inclusive to oppose gay marriage or someone’s right to adopt because they’re gay. It’s not inclusive to refuse service to someone because they’re gay.  It isn’t inclusive to lament that being gay isn’t a mental illness, which is what you do and also what your bigoted, racist buddy Pat Robertson did when he aired the soccer homophobe’s video on his 700 Club.  It’s not inclusive to pray a hurricane hits Disney world because it supports gay rights, as Robertson also did on the 700 Club. (Ironically, the next hurricane to hit the U.S. took a divine turn away from Florida and hit the home of the 700 Club.  True story).
> 
> No, Hinkle does not get to publicly proclaim she supports the exclusion of gays and continuing violation of their civil rights without getting called out by US Soccer or anyone else who understands religion doesn’t give you a free pass to be a horrible person.  I know it’s almost impossible now for people like you and her to support the oppression of minority groups using religion as an excuse. But, hey, if you don’t like it here, you can go back to where Jesus came from.


Actually, where Jesus came from, they are more accepting.  You may want to take a look at this research.   http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-homosexuality/

Are you are proposing some type of "don't ask, don't tell" policy for anyone who holds certain religious beliefs if they want to be on the US National team?  Irony aside, the US National team asked her when it changed the uniform, so that would not work.  

That leaves us simply with a "don't tell" policy.  If you hold certain religious views, and stay in the closet, can you participate?   Or do you propose we take it one step further, and make sure anyone holding those views, even if they do not make them public, be banned, for the sake of greater tolerance and inclusion? 

I disagree with her opinions and her choice, understand her right to them and our right to oppose them, but demonizing her for them is not the way to effect change.  A person can be wrong without necessarily being horrible.


----------



## push_up (Jun 6, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Coming from a pedophile that is pretty ironic.  Do you have to disclose that you are a sexual predator to the teams that you play against?


Who do you think I am?  Go full-on retard.  I dare you.


----------



## push_up (Jun 8, 2018)

....40+ hours later proves MAP is the mitch!


----------



## InTheValley (Jun 13, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> Are you are proposing some type of "don't ask, don't tell" policy for anyone who holds certain religious beliefs if they want to be on the US National team?.


Yes, exactly.  In fact, that’s how we already handle the klan, nazis, racists, homophobes and anti-Semites. It’s no problem if you keep it to yourself or among friends, but anyone who publicly proclaims their hate and actively opposes equal rights for a significant portion of their workforce and customer base does it at their own risk.  If you don’t believe me, tell HR you’re taking June off to protest it’s handling of Pride month and go on a twitter rant about it. Or ask the folks who lost their jobs for attending that white supremacy rally in Charlottesville.

How, exactly, do you think USSF should react if Bob Jones U’s star striker says on Twitter that her professors and the Westboro Baptists make a lot of sense; god says you can definitely treat Jews, gays, blacks, veterans and even Catholics as second class citizens.  Should USSF exclude her for all the comments besides the anti-gay stuff because, you know, gays are the one group your own pastor says is still ok to oppress?

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether Hinkle learned her brand of hate in bible study, from her parents or friends, from Mein Kampf, from a bad college experience, or from freakin’ space aliens. USSF is treating her the same as anyone who refuses to do their job and actively protests equal and civil rights for a significant number of their coworkers and customers.  It doesn’t care why. It doesn’t matter why. Religion isn’t an excuse to say or do whatever derogatory thing you want about whomever you want without facing consequences.  We can thank god for that, at least.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jun 13, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Yes, exactly.  In fact, that’s how we already handle the klan, nazis, racists, homophobes and anti-Semites. It’s no problem if you keep it to yourself or among friends, but anyone who publicly proclaims their hate and actively opposes equal rights for a significant portion of their workforce and customer base does it at their own risk.  If you don’t believe me, tell HR you’re taking June off to protest it’s handling of Pride month and go on a twitter rant about it. Or ask the folks who lost their jobs for attending that white supremacy rally in Charlottesville.
> 
> How, exactly, do you think USSF should react if Bob Jones U’s star striker says on Twitter that her professors and the Westboro Baptists make a lot of sense; god says you can definitely treat Jews, gays, blacks, veterans and even Catholics as second class citizens.  Should USSF exclude her for all the comments besides the anti-gay stuff because, you know, gays are the one group your own pastor says is still ok to oppress?
> 
> Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether Hinkle learned her brand of hate in bible study, from her parents or friends, from Mein Kampf, from a bad college experience, or from freakin’ space aliens. USSF is treating her the same as anyone who refuses to do their job and actively protests equal and civil rights for a significant number of their coworkers and customers.  It doesn’t care why. It doesn’t matter why. Religion isn’t an excuse to say or do whatever derogatory thing you want about whomever you want without facing consequences.  We can thank god for that, at least.


USSF did nothing yet to thank God for, she declined their invitation.  Perhaps take a look at the data, as you are comparing almost 50% of the religious world Nazis, and taking a pretty huge leap with your analogies. Then look in a mirror, and perhaps you will see who exactly is the hater.


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## InTheValley (Jun 14, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> USSF did nothing yet to thank God for, she declined their invitation.  Perhaps take a look at the data, as you are comparing almost 50% of the religious world Nazis, and taking a pretty huge leap with your analogies. Then look in a mirror, and perhaps you will see who exactly is the hater.


Even the dumbest kindergartner on the playground understands the “nuh uh, you are” argument is a loser.  There’s a huge difference between those who oppose civil rights, as Hinkle does, and those who don’t put up with that nonsense.  Are people haters because they oppose persecution of Jews?  Blacks?  Women? Catholics?  Or do they only become haters when they oppose persecution of gays?  What makes opposing equal rights for gays a legitimate position to have, if opposing equal rights for other groups is not?  Are you saying I’m a hater for opposing the Westboro Baptists and their sincerely held religious bigotry? Or just yours?

You don’t like my analogies and refuse to answer my questions because they’re directly on point and the reality is too bitter a pill to swallow. I don’t expect you to accept the inescapable truth that the only thing differentiating Hinkle and people like her from most of today’s nazis and klan members is that she hates and opposes equality for a smaller group of people.  Another difference, I guess, is that at least most klan members understand the importance of keeping their hoods on in public.

Feel free to get back to me when Christians aren’t allowed to marry, adopt children, don’t receive the same tax benefits as non-Christians,  are denied service at businesses without legal recourse, and are publicly reviled to even remotely the same degree as what the LGBT community has had to deal with. When gay people start claiming that diabetes is god’s way of punishing all those dumb fat religious homophobes for their unhealthy lifestyles.  That hurricanes only hit the religious south for a reason.  If that ever happens, I’ll stick up for them too.


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## push_up (Jun 14, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> Even the dumbest kindergartner on the playground understands the “nuh uh, you are” argument is a loser.  There’s a huge difference between those who oppose civil rights, as Hinkle does, and those who don’t put up with that nonsense.  Are people haters because they oppose persecution of Jews?  Blacks?  Women? Catholics?  Or do they only become haters when they oppose persecution of gays?  What makes opposing equal rights for gays a legitimate position to have, if opposing equal rights for other groups is not?  Are you saying I’m a hater for opposing the Westboro Baptists and their sincerely held religious bigotry? Or just yours?
> 
> You don’t like my analogies and refuse to answer my questions because they’re directly on point and the reality is too bitter a pill to swallow. I don’t expect you to accept the inescapable truth that the only thing differentiating Hinkle and people like her from most of today’s nazis and klan members is that she hates and opposes equality for a smaller group of people.  Another difference, I guess, is that at least most klan members understand the importance of keeping their hoods on in public.
> 
> Feel free to get back to me when Christians aren’t allowed to marry, adopt children, don’t receive the same tax benefits as non-Christians,  are denied service at businesses without legal recourse, and are publicly reviled to even remotely the same degree as what the LGBT community has had to deal with. When gay people start claiming that diabetes is god’s way of punishing all those dumb fat religious homophobes for their unhealthy lifestyles.  That hurricanes only hit the religious south for a reason.  If that ever happens, I’ll stick up for them too.


Your justification of abnormal and immorality is amusing.


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## InTheValley (Jun 14, 2018)

push_up said:


> Your justification of abnormal and immorality is amusing.


I preferred your original post before you pussed out and deleted most of it. For a brief moment, you were the first person on this thread to actually come out and say how much you hate gay people and those who support them, rather than tip-toeing around and letting Hinkle and the 700 Club do the heavy lifting.  No matter how much I might have tried, I could not possibly have driven people away from your hateful point of view more successfully than if they’d had the opportunity to read what actually lurks behind Hinkle’s softer approach. The gay slurs and pure, unadulterated vile and seething hatred were perfect.

Instead, I’ll just have to live knowing that even the most hardened, hateful homophobe here thought twice about expressing their candid opinion and decided it was best to delete it.  I guess that’s something.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 14, 2018)

push_up said:


> Your justification of abnormal and immorality is amusing.


That is really funny coming from an accused pedophile.  How do the parents on the team even allow you to attend?  You are the abnormal and immoral one and a pansy at that.

Coward.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 14, 2018)

InTheValley said:


> I preferred your original post before you pussed out and deleted most of it. For a brief moment, you were the first person on this thread to actually come out and say how much you hate gay people and those who support them, rather than tip-toeing around and letting Hinkle and the 700 Club do the heavy lifting.  No matter how much I might have tried, I could not possibly have driven people away from your hateful point of view more successfully than if they’d had the opportunity to read what actually lurks behind Hinkle’s softer approach. The gay slurs and pure, unadulterated vile and seething hatred were perfect.
> 
> Instead, I’ll just have to live knowing that even the most hardened, hateful homophobe here thought twice about expressing their candid opinion and decided it was best to delete it.  I guess that’s something.


He is a coward like most of the anonymous muckrakers on this forum.  Complete douchebag cowards.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 14, 2018)

Homophobia has no place in civil society and SHOULD BE PUNISHED.


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## push_up (Jun 14, 2018)

Do you think it is possible to love the sinner and hate the sin?


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## push_up (Jun 14, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> That is really funny coming from an accused pedophile.  How do the parents on the team even allow you to attend?  You are the abnormal and immoral one and a pansy at that.
> 
> Coward.


Prove it.  I dare you.  Feel free to post pictures and my name.


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## GoWest (Jun 14, 2018)

Religions aside, how does 'survival of the fittest' fit in here....Charles Darwin "On the Origin of Species" / Herbert spencer? #curious


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## Winston Wolf (Oct 1, 2018)

I write and talk fast. If I’m curt, time’s of essence. First, the fact USWNT has slipped to second forum page is sad. Second, after so many wrong young players were adversely affecting the team’s ability to gel, I’m pleased the 20 now rostered are conceivably the right 20 to defend the cup. But Harris needs to start. Has far better head in game during all 90 minutes, 85 of which are doing nothing. Dunn is perfect at taking a defensive touch, bringing it up to the farthest offensive zone, and creating scoring opportunities by the usual gang of beasts.


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## jojosoccer (Oct 1, 2018)

When I saw Dunn at NC she was the center back
She can play any position at the highest level.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2019)

France is showing us a preview of the WWC.  We are a quarterfinalist at best.  Can we get a real coach?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 19, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> France is showing us a preview of the WWC.  We are a quarterfinalist at best.  Can we get a real coach?


Is Ellis leaving before or after the Cup?


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2019)

Winston Wolf said:


> I write and talk fast. If I’m curt, time’s of essence. First, the fact USWNT has slipped to second forum page is sad. Second, after so many wrong young players were adversely affecting the team’s ability to gel, I’m pleased the 20 now rostered are conceivably the right 20 to defend the cup. But Harris needs to start. Has far better head in game during all 90 minutes, 85 of which are doing nothing. Dunn is perfect at taking a defensive touch, bringing it up to the farthest offensive zone, and creating scoring opportunities by the usual gang of beasts.



We will know that we are serious about winning win Crystal Dunn is playing forward and Morgan Brian is on the bench.  Becky Sauerbrun is waaaay past her prime.  Emily Fox is not a defender.  Diani makes her look very poor.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Is Ellis leaving before or after the Cup?


Before would be nice....


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 19, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Before would be nice....


Agree


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## Dabizness (Jan 19, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> France is showing us a preview of the WWC.  We are a quarterfinalist at best.  Can we get a real coach?


Is it the coach?

Or other national teams making HUGE strides to catch up?

Or “DEVELOPMENT “ in USSDA not working?

What is it?

The U17 World Cup a couple of months ago didn’t even have the US In the final 4 teams...is it the coach?


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2019)

Dabizness said:


> Is it the coach?
> 
> Or other national teams making HUGE strides to catch up?
> 
> ...



It's US Soccer as an organization.  They are not living up to their Core Mission Statement.  They are about making money instead of "advancing soccer in the United States of America."  The poor coaching at every level is just a symptom.  Unfortunately the best coaches on the women's side are not coaching the national team they are coaching in college (a full time better paid gig with accountability and a prerequisite of winning).


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 19, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> It's US Soccer as an organization.  They are not living up to their Core Mission Statement.  They are about making money instead of "advancing soccer in the United States of America."  The poor coaching at every level is just a symptom.  Unfortunately the best coaches on the women's side are not coaching the national team they are coaching in college (a full time better paid gig with accountability and a prerequisite of winning).


Who are your top 5 college coaches who would be a good fit for the senior USWNT?


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## Zerodenero (Jan 19, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Who are your top 5 .....coaches who would be a good fit for the senior USWNT?


Baker Boys.

lol


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 19, 2019)

Zerodenero said:


> Baker Boys.
> 
> lol


Beau and Jeff Bridges.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Who are your top 5 college coaches who would be a good fit for the senior USWNT?


Just off the top of my head:

Paul Ratcliffe
Steve Swanson
Amanda Cromwell
Mark Krikorian
Jerry Smith

I can definitely think of at least 3 or 4 more without really thinking very hard.


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## Kicknit22 (Jan 20, 2019)

I may be wrong, but I think losing to France like that is much bigger than a simple loss.  They dominated the entire match.  No longer do we have the intimidation factor over them or psychological edge.  If, and it’s a BIG IF, we meet up again in WC final, they will be confident as hell.  Deservingly so.  The argument of, “we didn’t have Heath, Rapinoe, Lavelle or Ertz out there”, doesn’t cut it IMO.  Those 4 can’t make up for the fact that the rest got thier asses handed to them for 90+ minutes.  That whole approach to the match was garbage. Not feeling too confident about our chances.  She Believes Cup should be pretty telling.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2019)

https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1428951107936


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## MWN (Jan 20, 2019)

US losing its domination has ZERO to do with youth development, unless the idea is that Youth going to college is development fail.  While men going to college is a development fail, I'm not so sure about women.

It has been anticipated for some time that the US WNT will no longer dominate, and other countries such as, Japan/China and those in Europe will rise.  Up until a few years ago, youth women soccer players had very little options after HS.  In the US, they could continue to play in college and continue to develop.  The vast majority of youth girls around the world stopped playing for lack of opportunities and in most countries there isn't such as thing as "University" Teams, like the US.

Europe now has no less than 16 women's leagues, compared to 2 in the US, in a comparable geographic region.  These leagues are mostly subsidized by the much more successful men's leagues/teams compared to their US counterparts.  The European's pay much better and the women players often train next to the professional men's teams.

See, https://nypost.com/2017/04/15/why-are-womens-soccer-superstars-fleeing-the-us/

If you read the article, there is a big "OHHH, $HIIII...," did Ellis really do that?

"US coach Jill Ellis had Horan, 22, on her radar despite the distance, *but leveraged her to return home with the promise of having a better shot of making the 2016 Summer Olympic roster*. Horan earned a spot in Rio as a reserve and looks to be a national team anchor for years to come — without forgetting the path that led her there: training like a full-time professional and learning from the tactical soccer minds in Europe"​So basically, our idiot National Team Coach blackmailed Horan to leave a superior development program in Europe to train/play with the lesser quality NWSL and its role players.

We as a Nation AND members on this forum need to pull our collective heads out of our asses and realize the development of soccer players is a continuum.  Whether its men or women, the realities are the same.  They start playing Rec, the better players are pulled to Club, and the best goes to some sort of Elite competitive program (in the US, in Europe they join a fully-funded professional academy at 13).  In the U.S. they go to college where due to NCAA practice and playing rules their development is stunted.  The truly talented players skip college altogether and start their professional careers at 17/18/19.

We don't have a youth development problem, we have a professional player development problem.  Europe has finally caught up and spending millions to subsidize the women.  Moreover, the soccer/football/futbol culture in Europe means the men's programs have the money to spend, in the US it's a much bleaker situation and one that won't change until the MLS structurally changes.


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## outside! (Jan 20, 2019)

In the meantime, if we could only get the NCAA to change the format and rules to support development of a better style of play.


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## MarkM (Jan 20, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Who are your top 5 college coaches who would be a good fit for the senior USWNT?


Why college coaches (particularly women)?   Shouldn't the pool be much larger?  We should look for the best coach, regardless of whether they currently coach men or women.


----------



## End of the Line (Jan 20, 2019)

The WNT lost its first game in almost two years, which is unacceptable. The WNT hasn't gotten smoked by France in a friendly leading up to the WWC since, well, the last WWC, and we all know how horribly that went. 

In response to this affront, we should change all of the NCAA rules that currently stunt the professional soccer growth of student athletes by instead stunting their academic growth.  In fact, we should encourage more players to skip college completely and go straight pro because the vast sums of money available for women's players.  Living in the basement of a creepy Sky Blue fan rent free and making $15,000 a year is certainly a better idea than getting a college degree for most college women.  Or just go to Europe right out of HS.  It worked for one person, so it must be a good career choice for most. 

We must also restructure our entire youth system.  10 years of top down control of the boys' side has worked wonders for them, so we should do more of that for the girls.  In fact, USSF should pour tons of time and money into making every child in America play soccer exactly how a handful of people in Chicago believe it should be played, especially when they hire the "right people" to ensure that every coach in America is coaching the one "right way".

We should also fire Ellis immediately.  Winning the last WWC in a blow out and going 18-0-2 in 2018 is not good enough.  She must beat every team, every time, even with C team players.  In contrast, Pia Sundage surely would have still beaten Japan in the 2011 WWC finals even if she hadn't played four of her best players and even if she gave a collegiate midfielder her first cap against a top 20 team playing out of position at outside back.  Sundage must be rehired so she can resurrect her strategy of trying to win games solely by bouncing long balls off Wambach's head.

I have an idea.  Relax. If the WNT doesn't win the WC, it will be the same result as most of the WCs they've played in. The WNT has been the most consistently good over time and that is going to continue indefinitely, but you're delusional if you think they're worse relative to the rest of the world than they've ever been.  The world isn't passing the WNT by.  There have always been countries able to challenge and beat the WNT and, go figure, there still are.  Right now it is France.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 20, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Why college coaches (particularly women)?   Shouldn't the pool be much larger?  We should look for the best coach, regardless of whether they currently coach men or women.


If you look at the statement from the poster whom my question was addressed you can see why I asked it. But, yes I’d think they would do a broader search.


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## espola (Jan 20, 2019)

espola said:


> https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1428951107936


France goal 1 -- US defender fell down right in front of the goal
France goal 2 -- incredible shot
France goal 3 -- US GK out of position (I used to tell my sometimes-GK son that facing a breakaway he had to pick one of 2 choices - go for the ball or guard the line - but don't get caught halfway)


----------



## MWN (Jan 20, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Why college coaches (particularly women)?   Shouldn't the pool be much larger?  We should look for the best coach, regardless of whether they currently coach men or women.


That is not what we are likely to do.  If US Soccer brings in a male coach for the USWNT, its going to get screamed at for bias and sexism.  US Soccer will hire females at the GM and Coach level, with possibly some male assists mixed in for the WNT.  Whether the coach can pee standing up or not really won't make much of a difference because the USWNT players have to be better.  Based on what France did to us, the GM and Coach are the least of our problems.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jan 21, 2019)

espola said:


> France goal 1 -- US defender fell down right in front of the goal
> France goal 2 -- incredible shot
> France goal 3 -- US GK out of position (I used to tell my sometimes-GK son that facing a breakaway he had to pick one of 2 choices - go for the ball or guard the line - but don't get caught halfway)


I would add that goal #1 our 20-year old twice-capped college defender had position and should have played a safe ball out, but instead a more experienced French attacker schooled her on the speed of play of international soccer.  Her bio describes her as "easy-going," and that unfortunately was her approach when facing her own goal.  The other two goals were the result of silly turnovers (a pass to no one and a midfielder dribbling the ball too long) and quick through balls/direct play by France.  We got outplayed, and the lineup once again reflected too much faith in athletes and individual play, and no sense of how to put together the best team that plays together, and that is on the US Soccer coaches. 

This is a decent summary.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 21, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I would add that goal #1 our 20-year old twice-capped college defender had position and should have played a safe ball out, but instead a more experienced French attacker schooled her on the speed of play of international soccer.  Her bio describes her as "easy-going," and that unfortunately was her approach when facing her own goal.  The other two goals were the result of silly turnovers (a pass to no one and a midfielder dribbling the ball too long) and quick through balls/direct play by France.  We got outplayed, and the lineup once again reflected too much faith in athletes and individual play, and no sense of how to put together the best team that plays together, and that is on the US Soccer coaches.
> 
> This is a decent summary.


Totally agree.  Ellis played a perplexing line up that to me said she wasn’t look g for results but testing players who may be in consideration for the WC roster.  I would have expected a better level of play from the players that got the start, but.....


----------



## outside! (Jan 21, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> In response to this affront, we should change all of the NCAA rules that currently stunt the professional soccer growth of student athletes by instead stunting their academic growth.


I believe that it is possible to improve the NCAA game without impacting the academic demands on the students any more than they already are. If anything, playing one game a week should make scheduling and time management a bit easier for the students.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jan 21, 2019)

outside! said:


> I believe that it is possible to improve the NCAA game without impacting the academic demands on the students any more than they already are. If anything, playing one game a week should make scheduling and time management a bit easier for the students.


Several coaches I have talked to who are concerned about development, injury prevention, and academic demands, support splitting the college soccer season, which would allow more recovery time between games.  September-November, then March-May. NCAA tourney would be in May.  Yes, some schools might have shared facilities, but these are not insurmountable hurdles.

If US Soccer was more focused on its mission, it would work with the NCAA to make year-round soccer a reality (instead of advocating skipping college to bet on a soccer as a career).  The players are training on their own year-round anyway, why not acknowledge this reality and create a win/win.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jan 21, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Why college coaches (particularly women)?   Shouldn't the pool be much larger?  We should look for the best coach, regardless of whether they currently coach men or women.


Coaching women and coaching men are two completely different challenges that I believe are pretty evident if you have a female athlete.  Managing 23 women is waaaay different than managing 23 men.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jan 21, 2019)

MWN said:


> That is not what we are likely to do.  If US Soccer brings in a male coach for the USWNT, its going to get screamed at for bias and sexism.  US Soccer will hire females at the GM and Coach level, with possibly some male assists mixed in for the WNT.  Whether the coach can pee standing up or not really won't make much of a difference because the USWNT players have to be better.  Based on what France did to us, the GM and Coach are the least of our problems.


I don't care if the coach is male or female (my list had 3 males and 2 females FYI) they just have to have experience coaching women.  If you attempt to coach women like you coach men you are doomed to failure.


----------



## timbuck (Jan 21, 2019)

What do college soccer players do when they are not in season?  Are they allowed to play / be coached by someone else for 8 months out of the year?


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## espola (Jan 21, 2019)

timbuck said:


> What do college soccer players do when they are not in season?  Are they allowed to play / be coached by someone else for 8 months out of the year?


There is a Spring season, practices that lead to one or two weekends with multiple games per day in April or May.  Sometimes the coaches agree to play full overtimes in those games even if the score is not tied just to get more workout time.  

At some schools there is "Captain's Camp" - unofficial voluntary practice time organized by the players themselves ahead of the official allowed pre-season workouts and tryouts.  

All year long athletes may have the opportunity to work with conditioning coaches and athletic trainers.  

In my son's first year, he joined a local U19 team coached by one of his school's assistant coaches to play in a Thanksgiving tournament, and then played in the school's rec-center indoor soccer league in the Winter quarter.


----------



## End of the Line (Jan 21, 2019)

MWN said:


> That is not what we are likely to do.  If US Soccer brings in a male coach for the USWNT, its going to get screamed at for bias and sexism.  US Soccer will hire females at the GM and Coach level, with possibly some male assists mixed in for the WNT.  Whether the coach can pee standing up or not really won't make much of a difference because the USWNT players have to be better.  Based on what France did to us, the GM and Coach are the least of our problems.





MarkM said:


> Why college coaches (particularly women)?   Shouldn't the pool be much larger?  We should look for the best coach, regardless of whether they currently coach men or women.


Yes, male soccer coaches are such victims.  Where was your defense of such "equality" when the MNT was looking for a coach? The fact is you had to go pretty far out of the way to turn the WNT's first loss in almost two years into an excuse to concoct the notion that women are getting favorable treatment.  Seriously, someone posts a non-controversial question about college coaches who might be good fits to coach the WNT and @MarkM responds "why college coaches (particularly women)"  Where the f**k did "particularly women" come from?  Who said anyone was favoring women?  Or even suggesting any woman as the next coach?  Who at USSF has said they'll only hire women?  You douches are about as passive aggressive as it gets.  You're already doing preemptive strikes on the possibility that someone might even suggest that another women would be a good future candidate, and long before it even happens?

I also enjoyed MWN's passive-aggressive statement that hiring even a man won't help "because the USWNT players have to be better".  Let me remind you of a few things.  The USWNT is deservedly ranked #1 in the world.  It has lost one game in almost two years, a friendly in which half its starters were benched.  The USWNT is the defending WC champion.  What, is Jill Ellis not cooking chicken fried steak to your liking?

If you want to gender stereotype, do it in effectively.  Do you know who actually "have to be better?"  The men.  And the male coaches who couldn't put together a team good enough to qualify for the WC.  The male coaches who "develop" our male youth, but so poorly that we have only 2-3 young players who aren't crap.  And the douchey male fans who are suggesting we need more failing male soccer people on the women's side.  The fact is that men in the US who are involved in soccer beyond coaching their 6 year old kids are almost universally morons and losers, with very few exceptions.  To prove this, you need look no further than the VW contract, because the same people in the US who watch soccer are the same ones who drive VWs.  Those people are: (1) alpha girls; and (2) beta males.  The last thing we need are more soccer betas going around trying to tell women what to do; they're incompetent enough when they do it on the men's side.  Get back into your Jettas, boys.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jan 21, 2019)

espola said:


> There is a Spring season, practices that lead to one or two weekends with multiple games per day in April or May.  Sometimes the coaches agree to play full overtimes in those games even if the score is not tied just to get more workout time.
> 
> At some schools there is "Captain's Camp" - unofficial voluntary practice time organized by the players themselves ahead of the official allowed pre-season workouts and tryouts.
> 
> ...


Your statement in red would be an NCAA rules violation.  You are not allowed to be coached by your own coaching staff during the offseason.  You are allowed 8 hours a week starting last week to be coached by your staff.  They have conditioning and workout programs supervised by athletic training staff that does not count against those hours.  They have kick arounds several times a week.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jan 21, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> The WNT lost its first game in almost two years, which is unacceptable. The WNT hasn't gotten smoked by France in a friendly leading up to the WWC since, well, the last WWC, and we all know how horribly that went.
> 
> In response to this affront, we should change all of the NCAA rules that currently stunt the professional soccer growth of student athletes by instead stunting their academic growth.  In fact, we should encourage more players to skip college completely and go straight pro because the vast sums of money available for women's players.  Living in the basement of a creepy Sky Blue fan rent free and making $15,000 a year is certainly a better idea than getting a college degree for most college women.  Or just go to Europe right out of HS.  It worked for one person, so it must be a good career choice for most.
> 
> ...



I disagree.  Jill does less with more than anyone else other than maybe Michelle and April.  If you truly don't think that the rest of the world has caught up with the USWNT and that sides like France and the Netherlands have moved beyond us then we have a fundamental difference in opinions.  Tomorrow against Spain will be telling.  Spain is ranked 12th in the world and will be by far the weakest of the true contenders in France.  If we can't beat them and look good doing it then the odds of beating several of the top 8 teams an unlikely scenario.  France looked technical and athletic and it is going to be tough for us to overcome both of those things with the current coaching staff.


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Your statement in red would be an NCAA rules violation.  You are not allowed to be coached by your own coaching staff during the offseason.  You are allowed 8 hours a week starting last week to be coached by your staff.  They have conditioning and workout programs supervised by athletic training staff that does not count against those hours.  They have kick arounds several times a week.


I wondered about that, but the coaches said OK.  And Thanksgiving weekend is still "in season" if you count the fact that the NCAA tournament did not end for several more weeks.

He got in minor trouble for another thing - staying on a couch in a team Captain's rental during Captain's Practice the week before the dorms opened for pre-season practice, without paying a share of the rent.  The school's compliance officer made him sign a "confession" form and make a small donation to charity as punishment (I think it was a local breast cancer support group).


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, male soccer coaches are such victims.  Where was your defense of such "equality" when the MNT was looking for a coach? The fact is you had to go pretty far out of the way to turn the WNT's first loss in almost two years into an excuse to concoct the notion that women are getting favorable treatment.  Seriously, someone posts a non-controversial question about college coaches who might be good fits to coach the WNT and @MarkM responds "why college coaches (particularly women)"  Where the f**k did "particularly women" come from?  Who said anyone was favoring women?  Or even suggesting any woman as the next coach?  Who at USSF has said they'll only hire women?  You douches are about as passive aggressive as it gets.  You're already doing preemptive strikes on the possibility that someone might even suggest that another women would be a good future candidate, and long before it even happens?
> 
> I also enjoyed MWN's passive-aggressive statement that hiring even a man won't help "because the USWNT players have to be better".  Let me remind you of a few things.  The USWNT is deservedly ranked #1 in the world.  It has lost one game in almost two years, a friendly in which half its starters were benched.  The USWNT is the defending WC champion.  What, is Jill Ellis not cooking chicken fried steak to your liking?
> 
> If you want to gender stereotype, do it in effectively.  Do you know who actually "have to be better?"  The men.  And the male coaches who couldn't put together a team good enough to qualify for the WC.  The male coaches who "develop" our male youth, but so poorly that we have only 2-3 young players who aren't crap.  And the douchey male fans who are suggesting we need more failing male soccer people on the women's side.  The fact is that men in the US who are involved in soccer beyond coaching their 6 year old kids are almost universally morons and losers, with very few exceptions.  To prove this, you need look no further than the VW contract, because the same people in the US who watch soccer are the same ones who drive VWs.  Those people are: (1) alpha girls; and (2) beta males.  The last thing we need are more soccer betas going around trying to tell women what to do; they're incompetent enough when they do it on the men's side.  Get back into your Jettas, boys.


Did you just get to the chapter on passive-aggressive behavior in your psych 101 text?  Wait until you get to the delusional behavior chapter.


----------



## pulguita (Jan 21, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Several coaches I have talked to who are concerned about development, injury prevention, and academic demands, support splitting the college soccer season, which would allow more recovery time between games.  September-November, then March-May. NCAA tourney would be in May.  Yes, some schools might have shared facilities, but these are not insurmountable hurdles.
> 
> If US Soccer was more focused on its mission, it would work with the NCAA to make year-round soccer a reality (instead of advocating skipping college to bet on a soccer as a career).  The players are training on their own year-round anyway, why not acknowledge this reality and create a win/win.


Other benefits:
1..  Less interference with academics
2.  Bigger rosters - all games are double headers first game for record, second game reserves
3.  Everyone plays on the weekend - development?
4.  Parent gets to see kid play
5.  Entire team on same weekly recovery schedule - less injuries?
6.  4-5 trainings per 1 game - development?
7.   Less shitty weather during  playoffs


----------



## MarkM (Jan 21, 2019)

pulguita said:


> Other benefits:
> 1..  Less interference with academics
> 2.  Bigger rosters - all games are double headers first game for record, second game reserves
> 3.  Everyone plays on the weekend - development?
> ...


Nice ideas.  The full season makes so much more sense.


----------



## MarkM (Jan 21, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, male soccer coaches are such victims.  Where was your defense of such "equality" when the MNT was looking for a coach? The fact is you had to go pretty far out of the way to turn the WNT's first loss in almost two years into an excuse to concoct the notion that women are getting favorable treatment.  Seriously, someone posts a non-controversial question about college coaches who might be good fits to coach the WNT and @MarkM responds "why college coaches (particularly women)"  Where the f**k did "particularly women" come from?  Who said anyone was favoring women?  Or even suggesting any woman as the next coach?  Who at USSF has said they'll only hire women?  You douches are about as passive aggressive as it gets.  You're already doing preemptive strikes on the possibility that someone might even suggest that another women would be a good future candidate, and long before it even happens?
> 
> I also enjoyed MWN's passive-aggressive statement that hiring even a man won't help "because the USWNT players have to be better".  Let me remind you of a few things.  The USWNT is deservedly ranked #1 in the world.  It has lost one game in almost two years, a friendly in which half its starters were benched.  The USWNT is the defending WC champion.  What, is Jill Ellis not cooking chicken fried steak to your liking?
> 
> If you want to gender stereotype, do it in effectively.  Do you know who actually "have to be better?"  The men.  And the male coaches who couldn't put together a team good enough to qualify for the WC.  The male coaches who "develop" our male youth, but so poorly that we have only 2-3 young players who aren't crap.  And the douchey male fans who are suggesting we need more failing male soccer people on the women's side.  The fact is that men in the US who are involved in soccer beyond coaching their 6 year old kids are almost universally morons and losers, with very few exceptions.  To prove this, you need look no further than the VW contract, because the same people in the US who watch soccer are the same ones who drive VWs.  Those people are: (1) alpha girls; and (2) beta males.  The last thing we need are more soccer betas going around trying to tell women what to do; they're incompetent enough when they do it on the men's side.  Get back into your Jettas, boys.


Were you wearing your pussyhat when you wrote this?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I disagree.  Jill does less with more than anyone else other than maybe Michelle and April.  If you truly don't think that the rest of the world has caught up with the USWNT and that sides like France and the Netherlands have moved beyond us then we have a fundamental difference in opinions.  Tomorrow against Spain will be telling.  Spain is ranked 12th in the world and will be by far the weakest of the true contenders in France.  If we can't beat them and look good doing it then the odds of beating several of the top 8 teams an unlikely scenario.  France looked technical and athletic and it is going to be tough for us to overcome both of those things with the current coaching staff.


Don't waste your time with this individual known as EOL. MarkM owes me a beer for wasting their time.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 21, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Were you wearing your pussyhat when you wrote this?


Dude, this individual has no hat, lost his ad-homonyms, repeats their self like a self imposed homeless person. Now you owe me a 6 pack of Pliny the Elders.


----------



## MWN (Jan 21, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> If US Soccer was more focused on its mission, it would work with the NCAA to make year-round soccer a reality (instead of advocating skipping college to bet on a soccer as a career).  The players are training on their own year-round anyway, why not acknowledge this reality and create a win/win.


The problem doesn't lay in US Soccer but the NCAA.  The NCAA has opted out of any governance or control by anybody ... other than the NCAA.  The principles articulated in the NCAA policy and procedures manuals are focused on "student athletes" and fairness and economics between the members schools.  The NCAA's approach is basically to say, all athletes are "Students" first and "Athletes" second ... and we want all of our members to have a fair shot of attracting these students and operating their various varsity sports efforts in a manner that meets the economic needs of the lowest common denominator.

If US Soccer approached the NCAA and said "Folks, we need you to change the rules to help us develop college soccer as a legitimate training ground for the pros"  the NCAA would look at them with a blank stare, laugh hysterically and then tell them to "Not let the door hit you, where God split you."

A quick read of the "Principles for Conduct of Intercollegiate Athletics" (Article II) and you will appreciate the depth of the problem.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/s-13-Manuals.aspx


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 21, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Dude, this individual has no hat, lost his ad-homonyms, repeats their self like a self imposed homeless person. Now you owe me a 6 pack of Pliny the Elders.


Wait till the studies start flowing.....now do you owe me a 6pack if Pliny?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 21, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Wait till the studies start flowing.....now do you owe me a 6pack if Pliny?


No. We never agreed on anything. But, finding one is much harder than drinking one.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

MWN said:


> The problem doesn't lay in US Soccer but the NCAA.  The NCAA has opted out of any governance or control by anybody ... other than the NCAA.  The principles articulated in the NCAA policy and procedures manuals are focused on "student athletes" and fairness and economics between the members schools.  The NCAA's approach is basically to say, all athletes are "Students" first and "Athletes" second ... and we want all of our members to have a fair shot of attracting these students and operating their various varsity sports efforts in a manner that meets the economic needs of the lowest common denominator.
> 
> If US Soccer approached the NCAA and said "Folks, we need you to change the rules to help us develop college soccer as a legitimate training ground for the pros"  the NCAA would look at them with a blank stare, laugh hysterically and then tell them to "Not let the door hit you, where God split you."
> 
> ...


The NCAA is a challenge for every sport to work with, no doubt.  The reason I focus on US Soccer is related to their abandonment of their mission statement ("to make soccer, in all its forms, a preeminent sport in the United States and to continue the development of soccer at all recreational and competitive levels") when it comes to college soccer.  

It is worth making the argument that the change of the college season could benefit the student athlete in terms of stress and health,  attract more top players to college (on the mens side), and improve the overall student/athlete experience.  One of the few advantages the US has over other countries is our university system, one that is used by many sports to advance their sport, generate interest, and continue player development.  US Soccer puts their effort and energy into a structure (DA/USL/MLS) that does not encourage high-level education and, at best, less than 5% of kids will get a low level pro opportunity, and less than 1% will ever get a cap on a National team.  Word is the MLS may even abandon the DA.  The current system is not helping the overall sport, but narrowly focused on producing national team players, and doing a pretty poor job of that (the best go to Europe).   They should direct more resources into promoting and improving the college path in the US, making that path more pro-development.  The college coaches are behind it. 

NCAA Lacrosse gets more attention and TV time than men's soccer, though I understand it is mostly East Coast driven.  A May based NCAA soccer tournament, supported by US Soccer, in a decent warm weather venue, could be made into a big draw, and also provides a perfect transition into national team camps and international competition dates in June.


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## outside! (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> The NCAA is a challenge for every sport to work with, no doubt.  ... A May based NCAA soccer tournament, supported by US Soccer, in a decent warm weather venue, could be made into a big draw, and also provides a perfect transition into national team camps and international competition dates in June.


NCAA may talk the talk about "student athletes", but they are also motivated by money. Since soccer is the biggest sport in the world, there is good reason to believe it's popularity will increase in the US. If the NCAA continues on it's present course, college soccer will become irrelevant to future US soccer fans which means less money for the NCAA.


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## timbuck (Jan 22, 2019)

If the US adopted training compensation and solidarity payments, would a university get paid if a player went pro?


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## espola (Jan 22, 2019)

timbuck said:


> If the US adopted training compensation and solidarity payments, would a university get paid if a player went pro?


Don't most universities expect their student-athletes they recruit to be already developed?


----------



## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

timbuck said:


> If the US adopted training compensation and solidarity payments, would a university get paid if a player went pro?


No.  Making youth development even more of a business is the wrong direction to go in the US. Having a more robust college game (like on the women's/girls side) reduces the need for youth soccer development to go in that direction.  Those payments are immaterial to the overall cost of youth soccer, and will further hurt the game, not help it.  

Just my opinion.  We need to take advantage of our strengths and change the conversation, not try to copy European systems based on a very different reality.  As I recall, the 2002 World Cup roster was mostly college players (the now defunct IMG Academy had a couple additions), and they did the best of a US team in any World Cup.  US Soccer changed the direction, how has that worked out ?  Has the current system produced a roster with the likes of (former college) players Claudia Reyna, Brian McBride, Pablo Mastroeni, Cobi Jones, Clint Mathis, Steve Cherundolo, Eddie Pope, and Eddie Lewis (among others)?


----------



## espola (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> No.  Making youth development even more of a business is the wrong direction to go in the US. Having a more robust college game (like on the women's/girls side) reduces the need for youth soccer development to go in that direction.  Those payments are immaterial to the overall cost of youth soccer, and will further hurt the game, not help it.
> 
> Just my opinion.  We need to take advantage of our strengths and change the conversation, not try to copy European systems based on a very different reality.  As I recall, the 2002 World Cup roster was mostly college players (the now defunct IMG Academy had a couple additions), and they did the best of a US team in any World Cup.  US Soccer changed the direction, how has that worked out ?  Has the current system produced a roster with the likes of (former college) players Claudia Reyna, Brian McBride, Pablo Mastroeni, Cobi Jones, Clint Mathis, Steve Cherundolo, Eddie Pope, and Eddie Lewis (among others)?


The women/girls side tends to be more heavily based on college players because they have no other avenue after high school and youth soccer.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

espola said:


> The women/girls side tends to be more heavily based on college players because they have no other avenue after high school and youth soccer.


How is the avenue(s) US Soccer has paved and advocates working out for the our men?  After 20 years, all those players who skipped college making a good living in soccer, and on the path to decent professional careers?  Are we more competitive on the international stage, or even within Concacaf? 

The whole point is disconnecting elite men's soccer from the ability to get a college degree hurts the popularity and development of the sport in the US, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.  But by all means, let's keep trying to implement a system desigend to find and develop a U.S.  Messi.   And let's export that great strategy to the women's side, and really screw up the sport here in the US for good.


----------



## espola (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> How is the avenue(s) US Soccer has paved and advocates working out for the our men?  After 20 years, all those players who skipped college making a good living in soccer, and on the path to decent professional careers?  Are we more competitive on the international stage, or even within Concacaf?
> 
> The whole point is disconnecting elite men's soccer from the ability to get a college degree hurts the popularity and development of the sport in the US, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.  But by all means, let's keep trying to implement a system desigend to find and develop a U.S.  Messi.   And let's export that great strategy to the women's side, and really screw up the sport here in the US for good.


I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that there is really not a viable path for US women as professional players, outside of the few that are selected for National Team service.  I'm more in favor of broadening the pyramid, and I have become dismayed over the years watching as different factions of the US Soccer leadership have made boneheaded decisions that reduce or eliminate pathways for player development.  

For example, why eliminate the opportunity for players to play HS soccer?  That costs USSF absolutely nothing - they get those players for free.  Why is there no MLS or NWSL team in San Diego?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> How is the avenue(s) US Soccer has paved and advocates working out for the our men?  After 20 years, all those players who skipped college making a good living in soccer, and on the path to decent professional careers?  Are we more competitive on the international stage, or even within Concacaf?
> 
> The whole point is disconnecting elite men's soccer from the ability to get a college degree hurts the popularity and development of the sport in the US, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.  But by all means, let's keep trying to implement a system desigend to find and develop a U.S.  Messi.   And let's export that great strategy to the women's side, and really screw up the sport here in the US for good.


The longer that I am on this forum the more I agree with you.  We started on the opposite sides of the ECNL vs. Open league debate many moons ago and now it is rare that you post something that I don't agree with 100%.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

espola said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that there is really not a viable path for US women as professional players, outside of the few that are selected for National Team service.  I'm more in favor of broadening the pyramid, and I have become dismayed over the years watching as different factions of the US Soccer leadership have made boneheaded decisions that reduce or eliminate pathways for player development.
> 
> For example, why eliminate the opportunity for players to play HS soccer?  That costs USSF absolutely nothing - they get those players for free.  Why is there no MLS or NWSL team in San Diego?


Agree 100%.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> The longer that I am on this forum the more I agree with you.  We started on the opposite sides of the ECNL vs. Open league debate many moons ago and now it is rare that you post something that I don't agree with 100%.


So much has changed since then . . . simpler times.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 22, 2019)

Spain is so much more technical than we are.  If it weren’t for raw athleticism and a high press we would definitely be in trouble.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 22, 2019)

Spain with 77% possession in the first half...
Gets an own goal.


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## timbuck (Jan 22, 2019)

Credit Press


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

Watch he movement off the ball.  Every Spain player making themselves an option.  Taking advantage of all the open spaces, and one-touch passing into them knowing their teammate will be there.  

For us, better lineup, but Morgan is a turnover machine, and Horan is five yards behind the play and slow.  Best first hald players for us were Lavelle, Rapino and Ertz.  We are missing speed and need Press in there.  Good she is in now.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Credit Press


I thought when ball would have gone in anyway, it is not an own goal.


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## eastbaysoccer (Jan 22, 2019)

Spain 42,000 registered women in soccer
USA 1,000,000 registered women in soccer

1-0 USA win, Spain dominates in possession.

In 10 years womens soccer will be in the same space as the men unless:

1) our player development improves
2) our soccer culture improves


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## push_up (Jan 22, 2019)

https://www.soccertoday.com/nc-courages-paul-riley-on-the-development-academy-vs-high-school/

First interview question: Are we doing enough to develop our next World Cup winners?


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 22, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> Spain 42,000 registered women in soccer
> USA 1,000,000 registered women in soccer
> 
> 1-0 USA win, Spain dominates in possession.
> ...


I will take the win but we will need to be much better to win the WWC.  I will take the win though.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I thought when ball would have gone in anyway, it is not an own goal.



We were playing defend and counter.  If it weren't for our superior athleticism and conditioning we would have lost that game.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> Spain 42,000 registered women in soccer
> USA 1,000,000 registered women in soccer
> 
> 1-0 USA win, Spain dominates in possession.
> ...


Want to make our women's game like the men's game --  keep on the path US Soccer has put us on de-emphasizing high school and college in the name of "development."  Restrict elite soccer to the select few, who toil outside of public view.  

The result will be more top female athletes in Socal switching from soccer to volleyball.  Enjoy it while youth soccer becomes a third rate girls sport behind basketball and volleyball for anyone over the age of 10.   And watch girls lacrosse continue to grow in popularity, taking more athletes away from soccer. 

High school and college sports are our unique advantage -- so we need to make them work better for soccer, not work against them.  Work with the leagues and programs to reduce the number of games. Provide more coaching education and guidance.  Try to adapt the schedules so they do not conflict with international breaks/play, so we can see our future stars play in our local schools.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Want to make our women's game like the men's game --  keep on the path US Soccer has put us on de-emphasizing high school and college in the name of "development."  Restrict elite soccer to the select few, who toil outside of public view.
> 
> The result will be more top female athletes in Socal switching from soccer to volleyball.  Enjoy it while youth soccer becomes a third rate girls sport behind basketball and volleyball for anyone over the age of 10.   And watch girls lacrosse continue to grow in popularity, taking more athletes away from soccer.
> 
> High school and college sports are our unique advantage -- so we need to make them work better for soccer, not work against them.  Work with the leagues and programs to reduce the number of games. Provide more coaching education and guidance.  Try to adapt the schedules so they do not conflict with international breaks/play, so we can see our future stars play in our local schools.


I’d like to hear more about how High school soccer is our unique advantage.  Everything I read on this Forum tends to put HS soccer as a Social opportunity over one for Development and Growth as a player.

It seems to me that the counties that are growing the quickest in the female game are those with strong professional men’s leagues who’s clubs are investing in the women’s game and using the knowledge from a successful Men’s Federation to bolster the Women’s side.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Is like to hear more about how High school soccer is our unique advantage.  Everything I read on this Forum tends to put HS soccer as a Social opportunity over one for Development and Growth as a player.
> 
> It seems to me that the counties that are growing the quickest in the female game are those with strong professional men’s leagues who’s clubs are investing in the women’s game and using the knowledge from a successful Men’s Federation to bolster the Women’s side.


Is there another country that has the level of local facilities, participation and interest in high school athletics as the United States?  Is there a better way to display leadership, commitment and community involvement, thereby improving their chances of getting into a decent college, for a young athlete than through success in their local high school program?  I am not talking about soccer specifically, but team athletics in the USA.

Soccer does not have the same primary team sport status here in the USA like it does in nearly every European country. Soccer here has to compete with every other sport not just for field space, but for participation and interest.  It does not help promote the sport by trying to remove it from our communities and education system, and through statements and actions, having a federation denigrate the sport played in those institutions.    

You do not make it in the european youth soccer system?  Back to your local community where unemployment rates amoung the younger generation are shockingly high. Soccer is a chance to change that narrative.  You do not make it after playing college soccer?  Well, as a college graduate your employment future looks bright.

But let's continue to put US soccer back into the European niche it came out of.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Is there another country that has the level of local facilities, participation and interest in high school athletics as the United States?  Is there a better way to display leadership, commitment and community involvement, thereby improving their chances of getting into a decent college, for a young athlete than through success in their local high school program?  I am not talking about soccer specifically, but team athletics in the USA.
> 
> Soccer does not have the same primary team sport status here in the USA like it does in nearly every European country. Soccer here has to compete with every other sport not just for field space, but for participation and interest.  It does not help promote the sport by trying to remove it from our communities and education system, and through statements and actions, having a federation denigrate the sport played in those institutions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for elaborating, your points are well taken.  I appreciate your insight (despite the arrogant tone, which I understand based on some of the personalities on this forum).


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> That’s for elaborating, your points are well taken.  I appreciate your insight (despite the arrogant tone, which I understand based on some of the personalities on this forum).


Apologize for tone.  I actually am not upset with the question nor the forum, just frustrated by the attitude within US Soccer, and where I see them taking us.


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## Ellejustus (Jan 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Want to make our women's game like the men's game --  keep on the path US Soccer has put us on de-emphasizing high school and college in the name of "development."  Restrict elite soccer to the select few, who toil outside of public view.
> 
> The result will be more top female athletes in Socal switching from soccer to volleyball.  Enjoy it while youth soccer becomes a third rate girls sport behind basketball and volleyball for anyone over the age of 10.   And watch girls lacrosse continue to grow in popularity, taking more athletes away from soccer.
> 
> High school and college sports are our unique advantage -- so we need to make them work better for soccer, not work against them.  Work with the leagues and programs to reduce the number of games. Provide more coaching education and guidance.  Try to adapt the schedules so they do not conflict with international breaks/play, so we can see our future stars play in our local schools.


You are spot on.  Girls DA is more about "me" than team.  HS is all about team.  I'm pissed at the DA. I'm proud of my dd (Freshman) to walk away from the DA and go for a CIF championship. Socal should have a top league that allows all girls to be able to do both.  We are too much of an either or society instead of both and.  You should be to play at the highest level as a youth and still play HS Soccer All other sports in HS are praised.  Why not soccer? Sad


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## Kicknit22 (Jan 22, 2019)

Ellejustus said:


> You are spot on.  Girls DA is more about "me" than team.  HS is all about team.  I'm pissed at the DA. I'm proud of my dd (Freshman) to walk away from the DA and go for a CIF championship. Socal should have a top league that allows all girls to be able to do both.  We are too much of an either or society instead of both and.  You should be to play at the highest level as a youth and still play HS Soccer All other sports in HS are praised.  Why not soccer? Sad


We do!(or, did?)It’s called ECNL.


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## Ellejustus (Jan 22, 2019)

Ellejustus said:


> You are spot on.  Girls DA is more about "me" than team.  HS is all about team.  I'm pissed at the DA. I'm proud of my dd (Freshman) to walk away from the DA and go for a CIF championship. Socal should have a top league that allows all girls to be able to do both.  We are too much of an either or society instead of both and.  You should be to play at the highest level as a youth and still play HS Soccer All other sports in HS are praised.  Why not soccer? Sad


I think were all getting screwed.  This is a business and we are the customers.  I must admit I was drinking the koolaid too.  National Camp call ups and college coaches. It's a scam folks.  If ten 8th and 9th graders go on Instagram telling all their friends they have verbally committed, only 2 will go to that school.  Coaches get fired and new coaches might have other plans and no contract was signed and some girls change their minds.  #letthemplayHS.........lol


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## Dos Equis (Jan 22, 2019)

Kicknit22 said:


> We do!(or, did?)It’s called ECNL.


It was first called CSL Premier.  Not so long ago, a girl named Alex Morgan helped lead her Cypress Elite club team into it, and won it.  Boy did that piss off the Slammers.


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## outside! (Jan 22, 2019)

Kicknit22 said:


> We do!(or, did?)It’s called ECNL.


Maybe in Orange county, but not in the rest of Southern California. ECNL was/is a closed system whose members were (maybe still are) more focused on protecting their monopoly than developing players. GDA seems to have copied all the downsides of ECNL and added a few of their own. While there are positives to both leagues, the disadvantages of both are very apparent.

Dos Equis has said it better than I ever could. We have an awesome basic infrastructure with HS and college sports in addition to a very strong club sports system. If only we could get them to work together.

Regarding the US vs. Spain friendly, I have only watched the first 30 minutes so far, but I don't think it was as bad as many here seem to think. For one thing, Spain is reminding me of their men's team in last year's WC, were my main thought about Spain was that someone needed to remind them that there was a goal at the other end of the field.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 23, 2019)

outside! said:


> Maybe in Orange county, but not in the rest of Southern California. ECNL was/is a closed system whose members were (maybe still are) more focused on protecting their monopoly than developing players. GDA seems to have copied all the downsides of ECNL and added a few of their own. While there are positives to both leagues, the disadvantages of both are very apparent.
> 
> Dos Equis has said it better than I ever could. We have an awesome basic infrastructure with HS and college sports in addition to a very strong club sports system. If only we could get them to work together.
> 
> Regarding the US vs. Spain friendly, I have only watched the first 30 minutes so far, but I don't think it was as bad as many here seem to think. For one thing, Spain is reminding me of their men's team in last year's WC, were my main thought about Spain was that someone needed to remind them that there was a goal at the other end of the field.


Spain is ranked 12th in the world and has no players with pace.  That isn’t a problem that France, Germany, Netherlands, Australia and the other contenders have.  We held 23% possession in the first half.  If our goal is to be a defend and counter team then we looked great! If we are trying to win the WWC then vast improvement is in order.


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## End of the Line (Jan 23, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> Spain 42,000 registered women in soccer
> USA 1,000,000 registered women in soccer
> 
> 1-0 USA win, Spain dominates in possession.
> ...


I love how the folks at this website start building bomb shelters when the U.S. doesn't win friendlies by enough goals.


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## Kicknit22 (Jan 23, 2019)

It’s not that they lose, or don’t win by enough goals.  It’s how they are playing, to me.  They look like shit.  Play like shit.  I’m not going to sit back and rest with myopathy about the past, and make excuses for what I see now.


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## Keepermom2 (Jan 24, 2019)

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/6/17/8796413/usa-nigeria-2015-womens-world-cup-jill-ellis-team-selection-tactics

I found this article that was written during the last women's World Cup while looking up something, and I found it funny that they were saying similar things to what is being said today.

"Except this team hasn't been impressive in any way, and everyone can see it. For hardcore fans that watch poor quality streams of untelevised friendlies year-round, it's a continuation of a pattern. But even those who are tuning in for the first time in four years can tell this isn't the USWNT of old. They're just not nearly as impressive as they were last time around.  What happened? The game has changed and the United States haven't changed with it."
"The good news for the U.S. is that they're going to get away with this for two more games. They'll play a mediocre third-placed team in the Round of 16, then China or Cameroon in the quarterfinal. Their next two opponents are worse than their group stage opponents, and the Americans have enough talent to scrape by them without a midfield. But when they come up against real modern midfielders like Germany's Dzsenifer Marozsán, Simone Laudehr and Melanie Leupolz, and a dangerous second striker like Alexandra Popp, we're going to see the USWNT's totally non-existent "No. 6s" exposed."


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

Keepermom2 said:


> https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/6/17/8796413/usa-nigeria-2015-womens-world-cup-jill-ellis-team-selection-tactics
> 
> I found this article that was written during the last women's World Cup while looking up something, and I found it funny that they were saying similar things to what is being said today.
> 
> ...


Its always interesting when history repeats itself.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Its always interesting when history repeats itself.


How did that one end again?  I’m not a fan of Ellis and the way she tinkers so much with the line ups.   This year’s WC should prove very interesting.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> How did that one end again?  I’m not a fan of Ellis and the way she tinkers so much with the line ups.   This year’s WC should prove very interesting.


I agree that it will be interesting. A lot will be learned with either success or failure.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I agree that it will be interesting. A lot will be learned with either success or failure.


So very true.....still need to evolve our game!


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> So very true.....still need to evolve our game!


Yes, that is a key need.


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## gotothebushes (Jan 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> We were playing defend and counter.  If it weren't for our superior athleticism and conditioning we would have lost that game.


Man I can't agree with you more. When watching the game I was shaking my head how the women were playing. The world is catching up to women soccer and we can't rely on just our superior athleticism. I'm afraid people is US soccer disagree or like there plan going forward.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

gotothebushes said:


> Man I can't agree with you more. When watching the game I was shaking my head how the women were playing. The world is catching up to women soccer and we can't rely on just our superior athleticism. I'm afraid people is US soccer disagree or like there plan going forward.


I know its not a popular thing to say (as many posters have told me) but maybe we should look more closely at what countries are making the greatest growth. To be specific look at the last 3 WC teams (Spain, Germany, France) on the men's side who have won. Their women's game has steadily grown, changed, and are on a rising trajectory. Why? A common thread called a style of play. I did not mention Brazil and Japan because they are uniquely different. But should be mentioned.


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## gotothebushes (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’ve posted this opinion before but with disagreement from others. Having a common
> 
> I know its not a popular thing to say (as many posters have told me) but maybe we should look more closely at what countries are making the greatest growth. To be specific look at the last 3 WC teams (Spain, Germany, France) on the men's side who have won. Their women's game has steadily grown, changed, and are on a rising trajectory. Why? A common thread called a style of play. I did not mention Brazil and Japan because they are uniquely different. But should be mentioned.


It’s pretty simple. It’s starts in our youth development system. If we can’t start teaching skills now in the youth - then it’s doing a disservice to developing and towards the national team.  The style of play will always be a hot topic but more concerning is the pressure these soccer coaches on to just win win and win.


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## Dubs (Jan 24, 2019)

Nothing will change unless there are catastrophic results...like going out in the round of 16.


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## outside! (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’ve posted this opinion before but with disagreement from others. Having a common
> 
> I know its not a popular thing to say (as many posters have told me) but maybe we should look more closely at what countries are making the greatest growth. To be specific look at the last 3 WC teams (Spain, Germany, France) on the men's side who have won. Their women's game has steadily grown, changed, and are on a rising trajectory. Why? A common thread called a style of play. I did not mention Brazil and Japan because they are uniquely different. But should be mentioned.


While I somewhat agree with you, Spain's style of play didn't exactly work out that well in 2018 WC.


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## El Clasico (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’ve posted this opinion before but with disagreement from others. Having a common
> 
> I know its not a popular thing to say (as many posters have told me) but maybe we should look more closely at what countries are making the greatest growth. To be specific look at the last 3 WC teams (Spain, Germany, France) on the men's side who have won. Their women's game has steadily grown, changed, and are on a rising trajectory. Why? A common thread called a style of play. I did not mention Brazil and Japan because they are uniquely different. But should be mentioned.


Agree, agree, agree...
I have said as much myself with the same pushback and here is what I have noticed about what the pushback has in common. They have no true understanding of the game.  For most, their first experience with the game is when their own child began playing rec. For some, their kids suck but they know it all, for others, their kids are the best on the team so they MUST know it all and the lessors (parents) on the team listen to them. What they don't understand is the guy they are listening to whose kid is good is good, usually, through athleticism, not soccer IQ.  When I say, we are falling behind, I don't mean that our women's team will lose in the first round of WWC (I actually expect them to win this year), what I am saying is that if we don't change, within 10 years, our women's team will be just like our men's team. Good but not great.  I think it was Spain's coach that said it best when he said that we have millions of girls playing soccer in this country and only 42,000 (of all age groups) girls registered to play in Spain. Love when he said that we are in the same race and Spain is behind USA but Spain is running faster.  Those countries you mention already know that they are making big leaps in their development and will soon pass us.  That is why they now play with so much confidence against us.  We have already lost the "Mike Tyson" advantage.


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## gotothebushes (Jan 24, 2019)

Dubs said:


> Nothing will change unless there are catastrophic results...like going out in the round of 16.


If that’s the case then that’s more reason to develop U20 and younger so that’s not the case.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

outside! said:


> While I somewhat agree with you, Spain's style of play didn't exactly work out that well in 2018 WC.


True, either did Germany’s, but very few do well after winning. Yet the domesticate leagues in these countries share the style which impacts home grown players.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> Agree, agree, agree...
> I have said as much myself with the same pushback and here is what I have noticed about what the pushback has in common. They have no true understanding of the game.  For most, their first experience with the game is when their own child began playing rec. For some, their kids suck but they know it all, for others, their kids are the best on the team so they MUST know it all and the lessors (parents) on the team listen to them. What they don't understand is the guy they are listening to whose kid is good is good, usually, through athleticism, not soccer IQ.  When I say, we are falling behind, I don't mean that our women's team will lose in the first round of WWC (I actually expect them to win this year), what I am saying is that if we don't change, within 10 years, our women's team will be just like our men's team. Good but not great.  I think it was Spain's coach that said it best when he said that we have millions of girls playing soccer in this country and only 42,000 (of all age groups) girls registered to play in Spain. Love when he said that we are in the same race and Spain is behind USA but Spain is running faster.  Those countries you mention already know that they are making big leaps in their development and will soon pass us.  That is why they now play with so much confidence against us.  We have already lost the "Mike Tyson" advantage.


Objectivity and always trying to learn more about the game as a parent with children playing could help curb that mentality. Yes, being proactive  and starting now is the way to go. Beginning  at the youngest ages as GToTheB mentioned is very important to foster those attributes needed to develop players. I also agree and hope our WNT can get far and possibly win, but it will not be done easily and could be ugly at times.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 24, 2019)

I do not disagree that European teams often play a more pleasing style of soccer, I just disagree with the suggestion we emulate European youth development, particularly on the girls side, when the athletic, educational, employment and social environment here are vastly different.  Soccer will not grow and flourish if they remove our national team program and players from public view (a la US Soccer's DA direction), and sever the link between education and athletics.  

Our bigger issue is our national team staff's recurring habit of building all-star teams based on the best athletes and individual performances, and ending up with too many selfish players who lack the inclination nor experience to work together.  It seems none of our national team coaches or scouts are looking for players like David Silva, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Vincent Kompany, Dani Alves -- smart/technical players capable of making an entire team better around them.  That is the part of Europe we need to emulate, and those are the players we need to develop.  

Best thing we have going right now in US Men's Soccer -- 16 players in the Bundesliga, over half 21 years old or younger.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I do not disagree that European teams often play a more pleasing style of soccer, I just disagree with the suggestion we emulate European youth development, particularly on the girls side, when the athletic, educational, employment and social environment here are vastly different.  Soccer will not grow and flourish if they remove our national team program and players from public view (a la US Soccer's DA direction), and sever the link between education and athletics.
> 
> Our bigger issue is our national team staff's recurring habit of building all-star teams based on the best athletes and individual performances, and ending up with too many selfish players who lack the inclination nor experience to work together.  It seems none of our national team coaches or scouts are looking for players like David Silva, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Vincent Kompany, Dani Alves -- smart/technical players capable of making an entire team better around them.  That is the part of Europe we need to emulate, and those are the players we need to develop.
> 
> Best thing we have going right now in US Men's Soccer -- 16 players in the Bundesliga, over half 21 years old or younger.


There isn’t anything wrong with learning from them as they have created a means to an end that has been successful. And, more importantly continues to be. Then from there create a platform that meets our needs here. I’ve seen the curriculum here and it’s just a standard. Which is fine, but it does not provide specifics to get there. It’s like solving a math problem without showing your work. In those steps of solving that equation are growth patterns we need.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 24, 2019)

Just saw this article on ESPNFC on Ajax’s player development. As you read you see remarks about what they do that we are currently discussing.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/espn-fc-united/68/post/3757094/for-most-clubs-losing-a-star-like-frenkie-de-jong-would-be-a-killer-for-ajax-its-their-business-model


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 24, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I do not disagree that European teams often play a more pleasing style of soccer, I just disagree with the suggestion we emulate European youth development, particularly on the girls side, when the athletic, educational, employment and social environment here are vastly different.  Soccer will not grow and flourish if they remove our national team program and players from public view (a la US Soccer's DA direction), and sever the link between education and athletics.
> 
> Our bigger issue is our national team staff's recurring habit of building all-star teams based on the best athletes and individual performances, and ending up with too many selfish players who lack the inclination nor experience to work together.  It seems none of our national team coaches or scouts are looking for players like David Silva, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Vincent Kompany, Dani Alves -- smart/technical players capable of making an entire team better around them.  That is the part of Europe we need to emulate, and those are the players we need to develop.
> 
> Best thing we have going right now in US Men's Soccer -- 16 players in the Bundesliga, over half 21 years old or younger.


https://www.soccerwire.com/news/pro/mls/fc-dallas-completes-transfer-of-chris-richards-to-bayern-munich/


https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/who-is-chris-richards-the-usmnt-center-back-prospect-who-has/ombmqco8e5pd1esbxol2jwrt7

At least FC Dallas is developing top notch players.  Between Richards and McKinnie the top Bundesliga clubs are loving their young American players.


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## Dos Equis (Jan 24, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> There isn’t anything wrong with learning from them as they have created a means to an end that has been successful. And, more importantly continues to be. Then from there create a platform that meets our needs here. I’ve seen the curriculum here and it’s just a standard. Which is fine, but it does not provide specifics to get there. It’s like solving a math problem without showing your work. In those steps of solving that equation are growth patterns we need.


Then it seems we may agree, as the primary issue is the coaching and curriculum.  US Soccer is going the opposite way in creating a structure that remains hollow at its core.  

I also agree we need to learning from them, but we also need to learn from other successful sports and coaches in this country, if we want soccer to continue increasing in popularity and attracting the best athletes.


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## Kicker4Life (Jan 24, 2019)

With the massive shakeout of the Coaching Staff at the end of last year, will we see some change?


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## socalkdg (Jan 25, 2019)

Possession for possession sake means nothing.   Spain didn't push anything at the USA.  Never attacked in the final 18.  4 shots Spain, 9 USA.  Watching the game, it seemed close in possession (maybe 55-45 Spain to USA) while the announcers kept saying Spain had the ball all the time.  FYI final possession stats were 52% spain, 48% USA.  Announcing was way off.   Really looked like the US was shaking off the cobwebs and looking like they hadn't been playing any matches the last couple months.   Morgan has looked bad last two games,  Lavelle and Horan sloppy,  Heath ball hogging and turning it over.   Davidson has looked really good last two games.  She is going to be a great player.


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## oh canada (Jan 25, 2019)

Finally watched the France game.  The problem I see is too many of the same type of player on the field.  Morgan, Press, Dunn, Pugh, Fox, Sonnett, and Sauerbraun -- all speed and no skill.  Pugh is a 9, Dunn a 9, Morgan a 9, Press a 9.  None of those players can make an accurate pass.  Once Davidson came in (she can pass), there was a bit more connecting on the left side.  Part of it is circumstance I guess bc Lavelle, Rapinoe and Heath were on the bench, but I'm still not convinced that those players even have the skill that France plays with.  Horan looked ok at times, but she too struggled to connect a pass.  I think Mewis better.  I agree with earlier post that Brian just hasn't been the same since her injury -- looks a step slow and her touch is off.  Lloyd has hung on too long and shoulda made room for a younger player.  And I really don't get all the hype re Pugh?  She's all speed.  No 1v1 game.  Can't connect a pass.  And she's small so not gonna get on any headers.  Yes, she scored, but the focus/effort by France isn't the same at 3-0 in stoppage time.

This is what you get when you pick the fast players and think that you can train the skill into them over time.  Doesn't work.


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## End of the Line (Jan 28, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> Agree, agree, agree...
> I have said as much myself with the same pushback and here is what I have noticed about what the pushback has in common. They have no true understanding of the game.  For most, their first experience with the game is when their own child began playing rec. For some, their kids suck but they know it all, for others, their kids are the best on the team so they MUST know it all and the lessors (parents) on the team listen to them. What they don't understand is the guy they are listening to whose kid is good is good, usually, through athleticism, not soccer IQ.  When I say, we are falling behind, I don't mean that our women's team will lose in the first round of WWC (I actually expect them to win this year), what I am saying is that if we don't change, within 10 years, our women's team will be just like our men's team. Good but not great.  I think it was Spain's coach that said it best when he said that we have millions of girls playing soccer in this country and only 42,000 (of all age groups) girls registered to play in Spain. Love when he said that we are in the same race and Spain is behind USA but Spain is running faster.  Those countries you mention already know that they are making big leaps in their development and will soon pass us.  That is why they now play with so much confidence against us.  We have already lost the "Mike Tyson" advantage.


I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".

You missed one type of parent.  He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature.  In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ.  He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him. 

This parent is also nothing more than a front runner who deluded himself into thinking that he loved the Spanish MNT at its peak not because they were the best team in the world, but instead because they played with a "true understanding of the game".  In fact, he's been referring to "tiki taka" as if it were a religion ever since 2010, rather than just one of many ways to win a soccer game depending on your personnel.   He also fails to understand that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line - even when he sees Christen Press teach that valuable lesson to the entire Spanish WNT.  His brain will explode if you tell him Leicester won the Premier League with the least possession in the entire league, that the two teams with the highest percentage of possession in the last WC didn't make it out of the group stage, and that the last WC winner had less than 50% possession.

I think I understand why USSF is so hostile to HS soccer.  It has nothing to do with maximizing player development.  Rather, all these male soccer people were so emasculated and humiliated in HS trying to be athletes that they're trying to keep the next generation from suffering the same fate.  It's ok, guys, people don't look at soccer like it's badminton anymore.


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## El Clasico (Jan 28, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".
> 
> You missed one type of parent.  He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature.  In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ.  He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him.
> 
> ...


We don't agree on much, but I do agree with your 2nd paragraph. All the high school jibberish, I don't understand. Where I grew up, there is no such thing as high school sports. However, I have four kids here, three went through it and one still in it and I still don't understand your point. Is it suppose to be an insult to me or your experience in high school?


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## soccerobserver (Jan 28, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".
> 
> You missed one type of parent.  He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature.  In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ.  He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him.
> 
> ...


EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...







You also cited one example of the success of direct style in the Premier League to make a gross generalization...but the data totally destroy your argument. On average, teams with low possession do poorly but less so than in the past...


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## espola (Jan 28, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you define "possession"?  When the ball is out of play and the clock is running, which team gets credit for the possession?


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## End of the Line (Jan 28, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Next time you should disclose that you stole these charts from an article about the declining importance of possession.  More importantly, let me explain something to you about stats since you're in over your head.  All you have done is an admirable job identifying how an average team will probably fare against another average team on a perfectly average day.  But if you're trying to figure out how to be a great soccer team that can beat other great soccer teams, you should read the article, because building a team to beat 51% of teams isn't what we're talking about, and the real data "totally destroys your argument".  Notably, the 3 teams in the last WC with the most possession flamed out and #4 was lucky to make it even to the final 8.  Seriously, dude, France had 39% possession against Croatia in last year's final and it wasn't exactly a close game. Russia beat your Spanish amigos with only 21% possession.  Shoot, in the most lob-sided WC game ever played, Brazil had 51% possession but lost to Germany 7-1 in 2014.  It's like you still think the best way to win in the NBA is to bang around in the paint.  Wilt Chamberlain is dead and Iniesta may as well be.

But like most soccer people, you're also ignoring that the men's game is not the same as the women'.  The truth is the women's side is slower despite playing on the same size field, which means that differences in athleticism will always play a more important role than on the men's side, and technical ability relatively less.  In other words, the Spanish women's team playing tiki taka is cute but even less likely to be effective than it is even now on the men's side, which is not very much.  Maybe the Spanish WNT will some day find great athletes instead of the middling group of circus jugglers who currently constitute their squad but, given their historical lack of success in women's track, I'm thinking Spain is already pretty close to its ceiling right now.    (NOTE - this is where you get angry because you can't handle hyperbole and point out Spain's U17s beat down on the US U17s so I can explain yet again why that doesn't mean anything).


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## End of the Line (Jan 28, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> We don't agree on much, but I do agree with your 2nd paragraph. All the high school jibberish, I don't understand. Where I grew up, there is no such thing as high school sports. However, I have four kids here, three went through it and one still in it and I still don't understand your point. Is it suppose to be an insult to me or your experience in high school?


Of course I was trying to insult you.  You make a fun target when you mock people who claim they know everything because you know everything.  If you'd like me to make a caricature out of the "I have superior knowledge because I'm a foreigner" soccer dad instead, I'm happy to oblige since I have plenty of experience with them too.   I do worry about the direction that will go, however, since it will inevitably draw @Sheriff Joe's attention and nobody wants that.


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## espola (Jan 29, 2019)

espola said:


> How do you define "possession"?  When the ball is out of play and the clock is running, which team gets credit for the possession?


"Dumb" is not an answer to those questions.


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## oh canada (Feb 2, 2019)

All this rain...Finally watched the USWNT v. Spain game.  Much better effort from the US side than vs. France because they had proper players in place -- Rapinoe and Heath on the wings primarily as Lavelle was nonexistant in the game in the middle.  Also better effort from US because Spain not as strong as France  (France 3:1 to win WWC, Spain 20:1 (same as Canada)).  BUT, Spain controlled the game.  AND, if Spain got better, more aggressive, play from their wingers, they could have won/draw.  Each time their players moved the ball beautifully through midfield out to the forwards, their wingers "chickened out" and chose to conservatively pass the ball back to the middle (usually losing it) rather than attacking US's outside backs 1v1.  Maybe they don't have that 1v1 skill in their skillset?  Maybe it was just a confidence thing?  I dunno, but if Spain finds just one player who can attack successfully they will get more opportunities on goal, and chances are 1 or 2 will go in.  The Spain u17 had a couple wingers who attacked successfully -- maybe they're not quite mature enough for the big girls team...yet. 

A good goal by Press -- weak foot strike into the corner.  But that's her game -- straight run using her speed.  One-trick pony.  As I've said above, she's a "9".  Not a 7 nor an 11.  But neither she (nor Morgan actually) nor the several other players who are converted 9s--Pugh, Dunn, etc. are good with their passing while back to goal.  And so, US is left with relying upon set-piece scores or a goal from pure straight-run speed.  I guess that's an improvement from Wambach headers, but I'd still prefer to see the team just try to connect the ball more like Spain (or France) does as Rapinoe and Heath DO have the 1v1 game to create chances.  I just don't think the squad is capable of playing that way.

Bottom line - US needs 2-3 defenders (like Davidson), at least one midfielder and a striker who are better with their feet and more confident on the dribble.  Then we will get threaded passes through the middle instead of hopeful balls over the top, subsequent 1-2 touch passes out to the wings, then 1v1 play with balls back into the middle or into the box for scoring chances.  Not pointless possession but meaningful, attacking possession.  There is a difference and that's why I don't pay much attention to the possession % stats.  Watch the game, and if you know soccer, you know who's controlling the game.  Watch a ManCity vs. Liverpool game -- both teams try to win the ball and keep the ball--that's possession.

Especially as home team, France is the favorite to win in my book.  Fingers crossed that Canada can get out of Group, but it's a toughie (Netherlands, New Zealand, Cameroon).  And good on US for playing two challenging opponents prior to WC.  It will make them better.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 8, 2019)

For those who are following the gender discrimination issues, this morning the USWNT players filed their lawsuit against US Soccer...

From the NYT: "All 28 members of the world champion United States women’s national team filed a gender discrimination lawsuit against the United States Soccer Federation on Friday, a sudden and significant escalation of a long-running fight over pay equity and working conditions that comes only months before the team will begin defense of its Women’s World Cup title."

Here is the link:   https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/sports/womens-soccer-team-lawsuit-gender-discrimination.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur


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## Dos Equis (Mar 8, 2019)

It is hard to deny, based on the facts as presented, that US Soccer has treated the men and women differently when it comes to fields and travel.  That is just plain wrong and stupid on the part of US Soccer.  And good to see the MNT come out in support.

Those of us who support women's soccer, and are older than our kids, remember what it was like from 2003-2009 (without any professional women's league, nor federation support), and how fleeting support was for WPS was from the MLS and large donors in 2009-2012.  While it was fun to watch WNT players playing on our local college fields and soccer parks in WPSL, it was not a career for any female player.  The current structure for women was based, in part, on trying to provide stability to the professional women's game.  It likely is not perfect, and needs work.   I just hope they do not win this battle, only to lose the war (put the survival of the NWSL and professional women's soccer in the US at risk). 

As an aside,  less than 100 days out, and I have yet to see much marketing of the Women's World Cup on television.  I watch Bundesliga, EPL, some MLS, and most national team games.  Perhaps they are running commercials during reality TV shows, but from a soccer fan perspective, pretty pathetic.


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## Tea and Busquets (Mar 8, 2019)

espola said:


> How do you define "possession"?  When the ball is out of play and the clock is running, which team gets credit for the possession?


Possession stats aren't necessarily based on time with the ball.  Depending on who's doing the measuring they're calculated using number of passes completed.  https://slate.com/culture/2014/06/soccer-possession-the-inside-story-of-the-games-most-controversial-stat.html


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## espola (Mar 8, 2019)

Tea and Busquets said:


> Possession stats aren't necessarily based on time with the ball.  Depending on who's doing the measuring they're calculated using number of passes completed.  https://slate.com/culture/2014/06/soccer-possession-the-inside-story-of-the-games-most-controversial-stat.html


Let me simplify -- it's total bullshit.  You can get any number you want by redefining the parameters used to measure it.  An example --  Blue GK saves a shot at his goal by grabbing the ball with both hands, presumably starting his team's current time of possession under any rational definition of it.  He rolls the ball out to a teammate Blue #2 near the right touchline, and White #10 runs in and is able to deflect the ball with a slide tackle, but Blue #2 gets control of the ball anyway.  Blue #2 taps the ball forward to Blue #4, but White #7 arrives quickly enough get in a 50-50 situation with Blue#4, the result of which is a ball over the touchline.  The referee could not see which player last touched the ball before it went out, so he seeks advice from the AR on that side, who admits he did not have a clear view either.  The referee decides to restart with a dropped ball, but notices Blue #4 is on the ground with an injury due to the collision with White #7.  After calling in the medics and allowing substitute Blue #12 to enter for Blue #4, the dropped ball is touched by players from both teams, with the result that the ball is over the center line heading in the direction favored by Blue.  Blue #11 takes a long distance shot at White's goal, which is headed by White defender attempting to clear the ball - but the ball is still headed for the far post.  White GKis able to get his hands on the ball just enough to deflect it wide, but the ball strikes his teammate White #3 in the butt and bounces in for a Blue goal.

About 8 minutes have passed during the activities described above.  How much possession time does Team Blue get?

BTW, I like the idea of counting relative numbers of completed passes, but I wouldn't call that "possession".


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## eastbaysoccer (Mar 8, 2019)

Woman just sued US soccer.  If they bring more sponsorship dollars they they should be paid more the men.


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## MarkM (Mar 8, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> Woman just sued US soccer.  If they bring more sponsorship dollars they they should be paid more the men.


It's not the direct sponsorship money, it's the World Cup money.  Per the NYT:  "One of the biggest differences in compensation is the multimillion-dollar bonuses the teams receive for participating in the World Cup, but those bonuses — a pool of $400 million for 32 men’s teams versus $30 million for 24 women’s teams — are determined by FIFA, world soccer’s governing body, not U.S. Soccer."


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## MarkM (Mar 8, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> Woman just sued US soccer.  If they bring more sponsorship dollars they they should be paid more the men.


This is the stuff that is hard for them to explain:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4389760/USA-women-s-team-suffer-5-2-loss-FC-Dallas-U-15-boys.html


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## texanincali (Mar 8, 2019)

It’s relatively simple.  Add up sponsorship $, gate receipts and TV revenue (this is the hard one) - subtract their annual salaries in which they are paid (the men are not) - and then give the the same % of the remainder as the men.  

If it turns out to be more, great. If it turns out to be less, so be it, it’s equal to the men.


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## espola (Mar 8, 2019)

MarkM said:


> This is the stuff that is hard for them to explain:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4389760/USA-women-s-team-suffer-5-2-loss-FC-Dallas-U-15-boys.html


They play a mid-teens boys team every year and usually get beaten badly.  It's a good workout for the women and a once-in-a-lifetime experience for the boys.


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## Soccerfan2 (Mar 8, 2019)

texanincali said:


> It’s relatively simple.  Add up sponsorship $, gate receipts and TV revenue (this is the hard one) - subtract their annual salaries in which they are paid (the men are not) - and then give the the same % of the remainder as the men.
> 
> If it turns out to be more, great. If it turns out to be less, so be it, it’s equal to the men.


No. This argument ignores the very heart of the problem. The investment into women’s soccer hasn’t been nearly equivalent to that of men’s. Just pay these women who in the last couple years have generated more revenue with a fraction of the investment and income. Pay them equally and communicate that they are of the same value with the same long term market potential. Recognize that they are growing the sport in the US as much if not more than the men. Don’t you see your daughters play on the field with all the same heart and commitment that your sons do? Don’t you value watching your daughters as much as your sons? Don’t help hold up that ceiling that your daughter is trying to break with these old, tired arguments about boys teams being better and comparing revenue. Even the MNT gets it. That’s what is simple.


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## jojosoccer (Mar 8, 2019)

How did the women generate more revenue?
Didn’t US host the Copa 2 years ago and each host city generated a ton of economic revenue..
Both teams play with heart.
The US women clearly deserve more Benifits from thier proven victories, but the men’s game, everywhere, is the money maker.


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## Soccerfan2 (Mar 8, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> How did the women generate more revenue?
> Didn’t US host the Copa 2 years ago and each host city generated a ton of economic revenue..
> Both teams play with heart.
> The US women clearly deserve more Benifits from thier proven victories, but the men’s game, everywhere, is the money maker.


They did it by winning a World Cup that a lot of people enjoyed watching. Would be so cool to see that again. I’ll buy some extra WNT gear and watch a couple extra NWSL games to compensate for some of you who don’t see it the same way and hopefully at least a couple extra people will ponder why the men’s game is (usually, like except for in 2016 in the US) the moneymaker everywhere.


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## jojosoccer (Mar 9, 2019)

I support our WNT, in fact I’ll be in France for 2 games in June. And I won’t miss a game if the tournament on TV.
But that doesn’t change Saturday mornings watching EPL, Bundesliege. and mid eeek UCL. The men’s game is faster, stronger and entertaining. That’s why it generates $$$
It’s a different game. The women’s game is good, but it’s not the same as them men’s game. WWC will be amazing, no doubt. The WNT should be compensated, but the fact is, it does not bring in the same worldwide revenue.
I’ve tried watching NWSL even though they don’t get a lot of TV coverage. If the league had more media coverage, do you think it would bring in more $$$?


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## Soccerfan2 (Mar 9, 2019)

Yes, I think more advertising and media coverage would help at all levels of the women’s game. I also think we still have a long way to go with regards to culture change.


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## Sheriff Joe (Mar 9, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> I support our WNT, in fact I’ll be in France for 2 games in June. And I won’t miss a game if the tournament on TV.
> But that doesn’t change Saturday mornings watching EPL, Bundesliege. and mid eeek UCL. The men’s game is faster, stronger and entertaining. That’s why it generates $$$
> It’s a different game. The women’s game is good, but it’s not the same as them men’s game. WWC will be amazing, no doubt. The WNT should be compensated, but the fact is, it does not bring in the same worldwide revenue.
> I’ve tried watching NWSL even though they don’t get a lot of TV coverage. If the league had more media coverage, do you think it would bring in more $$$?


It seems to me parents with daughters playing soccer will watch the WWC and parents with boys probably will not.


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## texanincali (Mar 9, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> No. This argument ignores the very heart of the problem. The investment into women’s soccer hasn’t been nearly equivalent to that of men’s. Just pay these women who in the last couple years have generated more revenue with a fraction of the investment and income. Pay them equally and communicate that they are of the same value with the same long term market potential. Recognize that they are growing the sport in the US as much if not more than the men. Don’t you see your daughters play on the field with all the same heart and commitment that your sons do? Don’t you value watching your daughters as much as your sons? Don’t help hold up that ceiling that your daughter is trying to break with these old, tired arguments about boys teams being better and comparing revenue. Even the MNT gets it. That’s what is simple.


I prefer to try and use logic when speaking about these things, not pie in the sky, rainbows and unicorns.

Also, I think I work just as hard in my field as Messi does in his - I think we should be paid the same.  Am I doing it right?

Also, I think maybe you need to do a tad more research.  I assume thee are some MNT players that wished they had an annual salary from the Fed - whether they were chosen to play or not.

This suit is PR bulsh, but no doubt theybget somehting out of it.


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## Soccerfan2 (Mar 10, 2019)

No, you’re doing it wrong. You don’t have the same job and employer as Messi. 
I’m not sure of the second point you’re making. By referencing the fact the WNT has guaranteed salary and MNT does not, are you saying you genuinely think the WNT is compensated at the same level as MNT? Since the lawsuit extends to working conditions and none of us have a very clear picture of all the pieces that go into compensation on both sides I find this point hard to debate, but 28 women who deal with the ins and outs every day feel they are undercompensated. It’s pretty insulting to them to call this a PR stunt. That attitude is the very disrespect they are trying to remedy.


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## texanincali (Mar 10, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> No, you’re doing it wrong. You don’t have the same job and employer as Messi.
> I’m not sure of the second point you’re making. By referencing the fact the WNT has guaranteed salary and MNT does not, are you saying you genuinely think the WNT is compensated at the same level as MNT? Since the lawsuit extends to working conditions and none of us have a very clear picture of all the pieces that go into compensation on both sides I find this point hard to debate, but 28 women who deal with the ins and outs every day feel they are undercompensated. It’s pretty insulting to them to call this a PR stunt. That attitude is the very disrespect they are trying to remedy.


Again, I am going to need to see some logic around your opinion if you are to change my mind.

Should NFL offensive linemen sue the NFL because they aren’t paid the same as QB’s?  Should a middle reliever sue MLB because they don’t have a power hitting first baseman’s contract?  I guess Manchester United’s Women’s team deserves the same wages as the Men’s team?  Yet somehow even the men on the same team aren’t on the same wage.

I agree that the WNT should be paid the same % of their overall value.  They should split off and demand USSF to separate their TV package and then it will be easy to see their value.

This is professional sports and it’s a business.  It’s nice that you have these feelings of empathy, but that’s not how you make business decisions.


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## Soccerfan2 (Mar 10, 2019)

Actually USSF and FIFA are both non profits chartered with promoting the game not making money.


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## espola (Mar 10, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Actually USSF and FIFA are both non profits chartered with promoting the game not making money.


FIFA is headquartered in Switzerland.


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## MWN (Mar 10, 2019)

We have two basic issues:

*Issue 1 - Women's Soccer Has Low Commercial Value.   *The world-wide market for women's soccer is orders of magnitude less than the world-wide market for men's soccer.  The total prize money to be split between the 24 women's teams for 2019 is $30M.  The total prize money for the men in 2018 (Russia) was $400M.  The 2018 Champion on the men's side recieved $38 Million (the runner up $28 million).  Contrast that with the Women's TOTAL prize money being $30 million. and we can already see where the money is.

Why the disparity?  Institutional sexism?  No.  Soccer is entertainment and women are not as entertaining to watch from a world-wide perspective.

Audit shows a record *3.572 billion people watched* the 2018 FIFA World Cup Russia™
Figure includes those who watched TV at home, out of home or on digital platforms
The final was seen live by a combined 1.12 billion viewers worldwide. _Source: https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/more-than-half-the-world-watched-record-breaking-2018-world-cup_
Contrast with the last women's worldcup: "More than *750 million television viewers watched the FIFA Women’s World Cup Canada* 2015™" https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/record-breaking-fifa-women-s-world-cup-tops-750-million-tv-viewers-2745963

On a worldwide basis, based on spectators the men's FIFA World Cup is:

*4.76266666667
Times More Popular
*​Than the women's FIFA World cup.

What is FIFA and its various Governing Bodies doing about this?  There is a strategy, but we are only a few years into that strategy, which includes:

Grow Participation (60 million female players by 2026) (Game Plan Section 1)
Enhance The Commercial Value (Game Plan Section 2 and 3)
Build The Foundations (Game Plan Section 4 and 5)
https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/women-s-football-strategy.pdf?cloudid=z7w21ghir8jb9tguvbcq

*Issue 2 - US Soccer CoMingles the Value of USWNT contributions to its overall revenues and doesn't separate perceived values of the two teams based on gender*.
With regard to the present lawsuit, US Soccer is its own worst enemy and the USWNT players know it.  They also know that the vast amount of the public are idiots and don't look beyond revenues.  Hint: you are an idiot you are myopic if you don't look at "net profit." 

When you look at US Soccer's budgets the Women are monetary losers, but before we get to that.  Let's also appreciate that the women are looking to maximize their "perceived" value.  The failure of the men to qualify for the World Cup was the best thing to happen to the ladies because it required US Soccer to redirect efforts that play into perceived value.

The Fiscal Year 2020 budget - executive summary basically put the ladies up on a "marketing pedestal"



> Not qualifying for the Men’s World Cup had a real impact on our ability to achieve our mission in the short-term. Not participating in June’s World Cup caused a shortfall in our ability to increase the fan base because the World Cup has developed into a sporting moment that unites the country around our team. This is a void that we can not fill in the short-term. *As we look to FY’20, we are pushing ourselves to make the Women’s World Cup a transformative opportunity for the sport*. The operating area that has been impacted the most has been events. While year over year comparisons on attendance are not necessarily the most relevant comparisons due to a variety of factors such as number of matches, competitive dynamics, etc., in FY’20, we will continue to rebuild support for the Men’s National Team and are *looking to maximize our pre-Women’s World Cup events for the Women’s National Team*.


  Page 5, _US Soccer 2019 Book of Reports_.

The above point is where you all seem to not get it.  This isn't about what is their present value, this lawsuit is simply about what is the "perceived" value in terms of marketing and growing the sports to US Soccer.

When we take a look at the FY'20 Projected Source and Use of Funds, the women are clearly bringing in more revenue (given its their World Cup cycle) than the men, but US Soccer is getting hammered on expenses (Page 8, _US Soccer 2019 Book of Reports_.)

US Mens National Team
FY'20 Projected Revenue: $20,414,455
FY'20 Projected Expenses: ($21,431,499)
Projected Profit/Loss: ($1,017,044)

US Women's National Team
FY'20 Projected Revenue: 18,503,582
FY'20 Projected Expenses: ($20,801,255)
Projected Profit/Loss: ($2,297,673)

US Women's National Team - World Cup
FY'20 Projected Revenue: 4,454,374
FY'20 Projected Expenses: ($10,582,252)
Projected Profit/Loss: ($6,127,878)

Restated, for Fiscal Year 2020, operating the US MNT will cause US Soccer to lose $1,017,044.  Operating the US WNT will cause US Soccer to lose $8,425,551.

What is missing from the above numbers is the revenue related to TV rights and sales of jerseys, etc. at its relates to the Mens v. Women's programs.  What we do know is that the projected Revenue for Mktg - Sponsorship - Broadcast is $51,7M, the Projected expenses are $7,827,128 and the projected profit is $43,912,872 for combined rights.  

It isn't broken up by men and women, but it would be delusional to think that the women contribute 8x to 10x more for broadcast rights over the men when the TV viewership is much lower for women over men.  Where the women probably come close to equality on the marketing front is jersey sales, but its hard to say because the numbers are not broken up by gender.

At the end of the day, if we were just trying to be fair on a "pro rata basis" and give the women the same percentage of what they bring to the table, the USWNT players should be paid less than the men.  If we wanted to pay the USWNT players based on their perceived value from a marketing standpoint then we pay them the same or more because America loves winners (as does every other nation).

Make no mistake about any of this, the USWNT players know the score.  They are fighting under the banner of equality knowing that their contribute less to the overall revenues and more to the overall costs.  They know that you don't understand it.  The US Men laid an egg, the USWNT is topped ranked and in a World Cup cycle year and US Soccer's mission to grow the sports needs them right now.  Their perceived value hasn't been higher.

The lawsuit IS strategic (even down to the day it was filed - National Women's Day) and designed to get the USWNT players, not their fair share of their economic contribution to US Soccer, but their perceived value, which are two different things.


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## Justafan (Mar 10, 2019)

MWN said:


> We have two basic issues:
> 
> *Issue 1 - Women's Soccer Has Low Commercial Value.   *The world-wide market for women's soccer is orders of magnitude less than the world-wide market for men's soccer.  The total prize money to be split between the 24 women's teams for 2019 is $30M.  The total prize money for the men in 2018 (Russia) was $400M.  The 2018 Champion on the men's side recieved $38 Million (the runner up $28 million).  Contrast that with the Women's TOTAL prize money being $30 million. and we can already see where the money is.
> 
> ...


That’s just too F’n long to read.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> We have two basic issues:
> 
> *Issue 1 - Women's Soccer Has Low Commercial Value.   *The world-wide market for women's soccer is orders of magnitude less than the world-wide market for men's soccer.  The total prize money to be split between the 24 women's teams for 2019 is $30M.  The total prize money for the men in 2018 (Russia) was $400M.  The 2018 Champion on the men's side recieved $38 Million (the runner up $28 million).  Contrast that with the Women's TOTAL prize money being $30 million. and we can already see where the money is.
> 
> ...


MWN thank you for adding so much light to the analysis...I was surprised to see how close the two teams were in revenues. My layperson reaction is that the women are drastically outperforming or the men are really underperforming since I can't think of any other sport except tennis where female star athletes rival if not surpass male counterparts in the same sport.

The WWC expenses should not count in the comparison unless you also penalize the men for lost revenues, loss of intangibles like "goodwill"  etc. for missing the WC and the Olympics. Stated another way, I don't think one should penalize the women for qualifying for the WWC?? For example, and hypothetically speaking,  the Patriots probably have higher overall annual expenses than the Bengals but it's also possible the Bengals are more "profitable" than the Pats. May I submit that the additional revenues the women will generate be added to the overall pie that they generate?

If you include the WWC revenues then this is what follows:

US WNT FY'20 Revenues: ($18,503,582 + $4,454,374) = $22,957,956
US MNT FY'20 Revenues: $20,414,455

I think this is an interesting way to look at the pie of revenues that are being generated and suggests that the USWNT has a point.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN as you point out there is also the issue of broadcast rights which is kept murky for some reason...the domestic TV and merchandise deals are comingled with the men, women and MLS all bundled together so it tough to verify if the allocation to the three parties is done on a fair basis.  Nevertheless, even without the exact data from the cloudy TV deals this is what we can observe:

1. MOST WATCHED SOCCER GAME IN US HISTORY -26.7 MILLION FOR THE WOMEN in 2015 in Canada...versus 26.5  for the Men's WC  final in 2014 and versus 0 views for the US MNT in last WC since they were sitting home...for perspective 18  million watched the US women in the final in 2011...
2.  US WNT 2018 Total Viewership: 5,746,000
     US MNT 2018 Total Viewership: 4,750,000
3. US WNT Head Coach Ellis makes less that the US Men's U20 coach. Maybe that is fair but its not a good look if you get my drift...
4.  US WNT viewership fell 20% in 2018; US MNT viewership fell 47% in 2018. 
5.  The women have more followers on social media than the men.

I do not know which side is right but I find the data to be interesting and I can see arguments that strengthen the case for more scrutiny on the current financial arrangements.


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## baldref (Mar 11, 2019)

I'm no expert on anything, but no matter which side you support, or if you're neutral like me, it's about capitalism, not Women's rights, or discrimination. If they get a better deal it's about them making more money. If they don't, it's about US soccer saving money. Making it anything other than is just propaganda to gain an edge.


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## socalkdg (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> When we take a look at the FY'20 Projected Source and Use of Funds, the women are clearly bringing in more revenue (given its their World Cup cycle) than the men, but US Soccer is getting hammered on expenses (Page 8, _US Soccer 2019 Book of Reports_.)
> 
> US Mens National Team
> FY'20 Projected Revenue: $20,414,455
> ...


Really enjoyed this.   Question is why are the expenses higher for the women than the men if the men's coaches and male players make more than the women's coaches and female players?  Or do they?   Do you have this info?


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## MWN (Mar 11, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN thank you for adding so much light to the analysis...I was surprised to see how close the two teams were in revenues. My layperson reaction is that the women are drastically outperforming or the men are really underperforming since I can't think of any other sport except tennis where female star athletes rival if not surpass male counterparts in the same sport.
> 
> *The WWC expenses should not count in the comparison unless you also penalize the men for lost revenues, loss of intangibles like "goodwill"  etc.* for missing the WC and the Olympics. Stated another way, I don't think one should penalize the women for qualifying for the WWC?? For example, and hypothetically speaking,  the Patriots probably have higher overall annual expenses than the Bengals but it's also possible the Bengals are more "profitable" than the Pats. *May I submit that the additional revenues the women will generate be added to the overall pie that they generate*?
> 
> ...


Let me make sure I understand, you want to eliminate the expense of the WWC, but capture the revenue?  No, that form of accounting would violate GAAP and is the kind of thing that sends CEO's to prison (e.g. Enron).  The WWC expenses must count against the Women's revenues because this very line item is fundamental to the WNT's claims and overall costs.  If anything, the Players are arguing that the expenses should increase more, so we must consider this line item.  The direct loss remains around $8M and would increase if we paid more in salaries.

With regard to penalizing the men.  This isn't about penalizing the men, because the men's team has historically borne an unequal burden, its about all working towards an end goal, which is promoting the US Soccer brand (i.e. generating more revenue) and growing the sport for all, regardless of gender.  The historical performance of the men's team and that of the women's has helped US Soccer grow. 

Concerning goodwill, when it comes to "budgets" and operating a company, "goodwill" isn't a line item, so there is no impact to goodwill, other than future sales.  A budget is not a balance sheet.  Goodwill belongs as an intangible asset on a balance sheet, but has no place on a budget or P&L.

Historically the men's game made the lionshare of broadcast, marketing and sponsorship money.  When FOX pay's $X dollars, it is solely interested in how many eyeballs will be on its broadcasts, so it can sell commercials to the likes of chevy, budweiser and others.  Here in the US, this is where the women have an argument given recent performances, but that argument is weak because the FOX contract was entered into with the expectation of both teams advancing (at least that was FOX's bet). 

Moving forward, while the world wide audience is low, in the US, the women tend to out perform the men when it comes to TV viewership because the women are typically playing in the later rounds.  That said, the TV contract between US Soccer and FOX was made prior to the men's egg laying effort against Trinidad-Tobago and didn't really impact FOX's rights.  Fox pays $425M over the life of the contract which is

We can't lose sight of the fact that soccer is entertainment and watching the *national team* play combines both entertainment with patriotism.  Whether its the Olympics or World Cup, America cheers and watches its national teams, on this front, the USWNT are doing very well and its perfect timing to capitalize on their perceived value as it relates to US Soccer's marketing efforts.


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## MWN (Mar 11, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> Really enjoyed this.   Question is why are the expenses higher for the women than the men if the men's coaches and male players make more than the women's coaches and female players?  Or do they?   Do you have this info?


I have some of the info and it mostly comes down to the fact that the "men" are not employees of US Soccer, whereas, the women are employees of US Soccer.  US Soccer pays the annual salaries of the stars while they play in the NWSL because there is no profitable market currently for women's team sports (soccer, softball, hockey, basketball, etc.), whereas, US Soccer pays nothing for the men, just per diem's and bonuses.  When it comes time for being rostered on the US Team, both get paid, but the men get paid more than the women, especially when you take into account performance bonuses.  Also note that the women have a collective bargaining agreement in place and renegotiated in 2017, so if you read any pay disparity articles dated before 2017, ignore them.

The lawsuit filed by the women is also banking on the fact that the complexities are too complicated and pundits will reduce all of this into soundbites without understanding the structural differences between the men and women's game, both professionally and at the FIFA and Olympic level.  Just look at the opinions expressed already, how many people actually understand that the women are employees of US Soccer, whereas, the men are not.  There is no men's collective bargaining agreement because the men don't play for US Soccer subsidized entities.  The women do.


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## Messi>CR7 (Mar 11, 2019)

@MWN, great information that puts things in the right perspective.  My initial reaction was also that there is way less entertainment value in women' soccer, so the disparity in pay is justified.  However, we're not talking about NWSL salary vs MLS salary here.  There seems to be a good case to be made for WNT vs MNT looking at your numbers.

On a side note, imagine the PR nightmare if we put WNT and MNT in different cabins of the same flight .
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44965630


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## MarkM (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> I have some of the info and it mostly comes down to the fact that the "men" are not employees of US Soccer, whereas, the women are employees of US Soccer.  US Soccer pays the annual salaries of the stars while they play in the NWSL because there is no profitable market currently for women's team sports (soccer, softball, hockey, basketball, etc.), whereas, US Soccer pays nothing for the men, just per diem's and bonuses.  When it comes time for being rostered on the US Team, both get paid, but the men get paid more than the women, especially when you take into account performance bonuses.  Also note that the women have a collective bargaining agreement in place and renegotiated in 2017, so if you read any pay disparity articles dated before 2017, ignore them.
> 
> The lawsuit filed by the women is also banking on the fact that the complexities are too complicated and pundits will reduce all of this into soundbites without understanding the structural differences between the men and women's game, both professionally and at the FIFA and Olympic level.  Just look at the opinions expressed already, how many people actually understand that the women are employees of US Soccer, whereas, the men are not.  There is no men's collective bargaining agreement because the men don't play for US Soccer subsidized entities.  The women do.


I thought the men do have a collective bargaining agreement.  Does each player individually negotiate his compensation?

BTW - the women's complaint filed in federal court calls the MNT employees of US soccer.


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## End of the Line (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> Let me make sure I understand, you want to eliminate the expense of the WWC, but capture the revenue?  No, that form of accounting would violate GAAP and is the kind of thing that sends CEO's to prison (e.g. Enron).  The WWC expenses must count against the Women's revenues because this very line item is fundamental to the WNT's claims and overall costs.  If anything, the Players are arguing that the expenses should increase more, so we must consider this line item.  The direct loss remains around $8M and would increase if we paid more in salaries.
> 
> With regard to penalizing the men.  This isn't about penalizing the men, because the men's team has historically borne an unequal burden, its about all working towards an end goal, which is promoting the US Soccer brand (i.e. generating more revenue) and growing the sport for all, regardless of gender.  The historical performance of the men's team and that of the women's has helped US Soccer grow.
> 
> ...


None of the finances should be used to justify paying the MNT players more since they're based on phony misogynistic accounting.  Specifically, USSF drops money into the "men's revenue" category although the MNT has virtually nothing to do with generating it.  There is nothing about GAAP that says USSF should (or can) put certain revenues into gender-specific categories and then pay women unequally because of it.  USSF is just hiding behind numbers to rationalize gender discrimination. 

For starters, consider the windfall payments USSF receives when the MNT actually qualifies for a WC (currently $8 million just to show up).  This money is the result of revenue generated from ads and ticket sales when real teams like Germany, France and Brazil play, and the MNT is no more entitled than the WNT to money received by FIFA that it obtained from 200 other countries and that the MNT does nothing to earn other than being men.  In other words, although both the MNT and WNT are responsible for getting a payment when they win, the men did nothing to justify the fact that their payment gets to be larger.  That money shouldn't be considered revenue generated by the men because they were no more responsible than the women for the size of the payment; they were only responsible for the fact that USSF got a payment.

Even with USSF revenues from games played in the US, it's B.S. to say that the MNT players are responsible for that revenue either.  When Messi or the Mexican NT rolls in for Copa or a friendly, you can put virtually any MNT player on the field without losing $1.  In reality, not a single one of them deserves a dime because none of them move the needle on revenue generation. To the contrary, the MNT players are actually a huge drain on revenue that could and should benefit all USSF operations.  For example, how much money does USSF intentionally throw away because it schedules qualifiers against Mexico in a 20,000 seat stadium in OH, instead of the 100,000+ Coliseum, just to have a fighting chance at winning a game they'll lose anyway?  Why should the WNT, youth soccer and everything else USSF oversees by virtue of its Congressionally-provided monopoly status - which must be used for the best interests of the U.S. (and not the MNT only) - pay the price for the revenue that a bunch of men at USSF throw away because the MNT is crap?

Ironically, the women have a direct positive impact on revenue and, as such, are more important than the men's players when it comes to generating it.  If the WNT sucks, revenue goes way down because everyone comes to see them play, not the opponent.   And they (along with their American predecessors) are almost single-handedly responsible for the prize money that FIFA passes out on the women's side.  The MNT players just ride the wave of France's, Argentina's and Brazil's awesomeness and then claim an entitlement to money that was earned by someone else.  It's great to be a man and make more than women no matter how s**y you are at your job, no matter how interchangeable you are, and no matter how little impact you have on a company's revenue (other than to make it go down because you have a fragile ego and suck).   That is the very definition of gender discrimination.

It is also wrong to say the MNT isn't benefiting from institutionalized sexism.  FIFA has received almost a billion dollars from Qatar.  Stadiums will be filled with middle eastern dudes from countries like Saudi Arabia that don't let women play (or even go to) a soccer game at all, meaning 100% of that country's soccer dollars go to men's soccer based on a repressive male-dominated society.  And although middle eastern countries are an extreme example, they aren't that extreme.  Probably every country on earth has a long and inglorious history of inhibiting women in sports and every aspect of business and life.  Men get to make decisions and hold financial purse strings virtually everywhere and, when women can't play sports and don't have the money to support them, discrimination perpetuates itself forever.

It is also incorrect to say that the MNT deserves more money because men's soccer is a better product worldwide.  Maybe that's true in Brazil, but that argument falls apart when you make the appropriate comparison between the MNT and the WNT.  Claiming that the MNT is better entertainment than the WNT is borderline laughable.  I believe TV ratings are better for the women overall in the US and, when they aren't, it's because people are tuning in to watch their opponent.  The VW contract was also almost certainly driven by the WNT based on the timing (the year after the MNT generated no WC ad revenue and the year before the women generate a lot) and the fact that women and rich girl soccer players are VW's target audience.  USSF fails to give the WNT credit for driving ad revenue when that credit is due, and although that revenue is a huge factor.

Regardless, hiding behind misogynistic accounting misses the point.  By virtue of its congressional mandate, USSF's role is supposed to act in the best interests of the U.S., not the best interests of the MNT.  Gender equality is in the best interests of the U.S.  Throwing money away hiding from Mexico is not in the best interests of the U.S.  It's not even in the best long-term interests of the men, since some of that money could be used for the benefit of our youth boys (and girls) systems.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> Let me make sure I understand, you want to eliminate the expense of the WWC, but capture the revenue?  No, that form of accounting would violate GAAP and is the kind of thing that sends CEO's to prison (e.g. Enron).  The WWC expenses must count against the Women's revenues because this very line item is fundamental to the WNT's claims and overall costs.  If anything, the Players are arguing that the expenses should increase more, so we must consider this line item.  The direct loss remains around $8M and would increase if we paid more in salaries.
> 
> With regard to penalizing the men.  This isn't about penalizing the men, because the men's team has historically borne an unequal burden, its about all working towards an end goal, which is promoting the US Soccer brand (i.e. generating more revenue) and growing the sport for all, regardless of gender.  The historical performance of the men's team and that of the women's has helped US Soccer grow.
> 
> ...


@MWN I should have made my points in a cleaner way. I was an expert on Enron and it's accounting irregularities were not a surprise to me although I never thought they would go BK. I like to focus on revenues because they are more tangible than the expense side of the ledger. When I do a forensic accounting analysis on a company as a general rule I trust the revenues more than the expenses. A talented cost accountant can work wonders with how costs are allocated and very different pictures can be presented depending on how costs are allocated between the men's and women's divisions,  the extent to which they are capitalized, etc. That is why I focused on the top line revenues, which on the surface show that the revenues generated by the women are above the men's side for 2020. I will never have the detail needed to assess the cost allocation but that is what the lawsuit should enable the women to do through discovery.


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## MWN (Mar 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I thought the men do have a collective bargaining agreement.  Does each player individually negotiate his compensation?
> 
> BTW - the women's complaint filed in federal court calls the MNT employees of US soccer.


Its my understanding the USMNT players are not W-2 employees of US Soccer, but are paid as 1099 contractors.  Beginning in 1996, USMNT formed their own union to collectively bargain with US Soccer (the USNSTPA / _United States National Soccer Team Players Association_ - ussoccerplayers.com).  Before that, it was all an individual negotiation.  

It has been my understanding that because the USMNT players have agreements with professional teams/leagues that pay a living wage (in various countries), they didn't want the additional headaches of being an employee of US Soccer, whereas, the women don't have that option and needed a different arrangement.


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## MWN (Mar 11, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> On a side note, imagine the PR nightmare if we put WNT and MNT in different cabins of the same flight .
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44965630


Having just recently returned from a trip to Florida and back, I can tell you that seat size should be allocated on passenger size.  I'm 6'3" and more than I should weigh.  F'ing seats are way too small, its really the only time I wished I was a petite person.


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## espola (Mar 11, 2019)

MWN said:


> Having just recently returned from a trip to Florida and back, I can tell you that seat size should be allocated on passenger size.  I'm 6'3" and more than I should weigh.  F'ing seats are way too small, its really the only time I wished I was a petite person.


And be charged accordingly?


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## MWN (Mar 12, 2019)

espola said:


> And be charged accordingly?


At 6'3" my knees typically touch (or barely touch) the back of the seat in front.  If the person in front reclines ... I'm screwed.  The bigger problem, is that while my butt fits in the seat, my shoulder width is wider than the seat by a few inches for two reasons (I'm bigger than the average male who is 5'10") and have broader shoulders than the average, which exceed the width of the airline seat.

Like the WNT, I feel that I'm being discriminated against based on my genetics.  Paying more would be discrimination.  I should sue.


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## espola (Mar 12, 2019)

MWN said:


> At 6'3" my knees typically touch (or barely touch) the back of the seat in front.  If the person in front reclines ... I'm screwed.  The bigger problem, is that while my butt fits in the seat, my shoulder width is wider than the seat by a few inches for two reasons (I'm bigger than the average male who is 5'10") and have broader shoulders than the average, which exceed the width of the airline seat.
> 
> Like the WNT, I feel that I'm being discriminated against based on my genetics.  Paying more would be discrimination.  I should sue.


Paying more would equalize your consumption of limited resources.


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## Justafan (Mar 13, 2019)

espola said:


> Paying more would equalize your consumption of limited resources.


Stop sizing each other up, we ALL know neither of you is really 6’3”.


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## espola (Mar 13, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Stop sizing each other up, we ALL know neither of you is really 6’3”.


I have been 5'10" for years, but at my last doctor visit they put me down as 5'8".  

My feet are still the same size.


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## outside! (Mar 13, 2019)

My hair's still curly, my eyes are still blue...





or


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## texanincali (Mar 13, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> misogynistic accounting


This is unbelievable.  

Honest questions, I would appreciate an honest response.  For a minute, let's pretend each team was accounted for separately over a four year period of time, with each have a World Cup cycle (that we actually qualify for) in the period we will look at.  

USSF can negotiate a domestic TV package for the men alone - this would include all friendlies and qualifiers.  USSF can negotiate an equipment sponsorship and shirt sponsorship on behalf of the USMNT.  USSF pays for business class airline tickets, 4 star hotels, meals and stipends, coaching staff salaries.  USSF put the FIFA World Cup payments on the books for the men - why would this not count, they are part of the tournament like every other team.  USSF continues to pay the same exact bonuses as they have in the past and keep the same gate receipts as in the past. 

Now let say, USSF can negotiate a domestic TV package for the women alone - includes all friendlies and qualifiers.  USSF can negotiate an equipment sponsorship and shirt sponsorship deal on behalf of the WNT.  USSF pays for the exact same business class airline tickets, the exact same 4 star hotels, the exact same meals and stipends, and coaching staff salaries.  USSF would put the Womens World Cup payments on the books for the women.  USSF must still pay the salaries of the women that are on the team, plus the exact same bonuses as the men receive, including gate receipts.

After each 4 year period, who has the better bottom line?  In your opinion, why? Total revenue - total expenses, GAAP accounting vs. MAP (misogynistic accounting).


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## soccerobserver (Mar 13, 2019)

@Texicali I think your suggestion is eminently reasonable. I also imagine this is what the lawsuits will enable the women to analyze through the discovery process prior to any trial. 
 What you propose is sensible. The problem is that the broadcast rights are presently all bundled together- the Men, Women and MLS (!) are bundled so it's difficult to segregate who is earning what. If I am wrong on this then hopefully some one will correct me.

At first I was disappointed that the women sued. However after seeing some of the data that favor the women in the domestic market I think the women would be crazy not to sue.


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## End of the Line (Mar 13, 2019)

texanincali said:


> This is unbelievable.
> 
> Honest questions, I would appreciate an honest response.  For a minute, let's pretend each team was accounted for separately over a four year period of time, with each have a World Cup cycle (that we actually qualify for) in the period we will look at.
> 
> ...


The categories of revenue that USSF does and doesn't put into the men's and women's revenue buckets are determined solely by USSF and have nothing to do with GAAP accounting practices, as I previously stated.  It is not possible for us to itemize the impact of the MNT's or WNT's impact on advertising revenue and sponsorship deals with absolute certainty of course, but many indicators suggest that the WNT is more of the driving force for the reasons I have previously stated.  The fact is that USSF has chosen to attribute only some of the revenue streams to the MNT and WNT revenue buckets, and those happen to favor the men, while it has left out the biggest ones (namely the VW and Nike contracts) which probably favor the women.  USSF certainly could negotiate contracts separately in order to better asses their relative contributions to USSF's biggest revenue streams.  And that doesn't even do things justice, because VW and Nike contracts are pretty much pure profit, while gate receipts aren't nearly as profitable since much of that it is eaten up by expenses.  Regardless, even without negotiating separately for the MNT and WNT, there are mechanisms in place to determine how to value both the MNT's and WNT's percentages of the VW and Nike contracts, but USSF doesn't.  If they did, I bet we'd all find out that Alex Morgan alone sells more jerseys than the entire MNT combined.  Ultimately, we'd almost certainly find out that the WNT and the Mexican NT players are far more important profit drivers than the MNT players.

If USSF isn't going to base compensation on the actual value they provide, but only on the value they provide from some of the lesser revenue streams (and the ones that favor the men), it has no legitimate basis to value the men at a higher level and pay them more.  In other words, when someone earlier in this thread something about paying the WNT based on "perceived" rather than actual value, the fact is that they're paying the MNT more based on their "perceived", and not their actual overall value.


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## Dos Equis (Mar 13, 2019)

Hmmm...  

WNT players suing over the unequal treatment and pay
MNT failing to qualify for the World Cup, and losing youth players to other countries
MLS teams threatening to leave the Boys DA
Some of the most successful clubs in major markets leaving the Girls DA (which is modeled after a failing boys DA)
The combined Copa America proposed by USA dead on arrival with CONMEBOL, so MNT stuck playing friendlies or against CONCACAF for the foreseeable future, with no Confed Cup either, and Gold Cup contract over in 2021.
On the positive side -- all of our best young players once again migrating to European clubs, so I can see them on TV every weekend, but not on the national team most games ...
..... am I missing something.  

There is something rotten in US Soccer.  Please no more committees, Carlos. Major change is needed now.


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## texanincali (Mar 13, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> The categories of revenue that USSF does and doesn't put into the men's and women's revenue buckets are determined solely by USSF and have nothing to do with GAAP accounting practices, as I previously stated.  It is not possible for us to itemize the impact of the MNT's or WNT's impact on advertising revenue and sponsorship deals with absolute certainty of course, but many indicators suggest that the WNT is more of the driving force for the reasons I have previously stated.  The fact is that USSF has chosen to attribute only some of the revenue streams to the MNT and WNT revenue buckets, and those happen to favor the men, while it has left out the biggest ones (namely the VW and Nike contracts) which probably favor the women.  USSF certainly could negotiate contracts separately in order to better asses their relative contributions to USSF's biggest revenue streams.  And that doesn't even do things justice, because VW and Nike contracts are pretty much pure profit, while gate receipts aren't nearly as profitable since much of that it is eaten up by expenses.  Regardless, even without negotiating separately for the MNT and WNT, there are mechanisms in place to determine how to value both the MNT's and WNT's percentages of the VW and Nike contracts, but USSF doesn't.  If they did, I bet we'd all find out that Alex Morgan alone sells more jerseys than the entire MNT combined.  Ultimately, we'd almost certainly find out that the WNT and the Mexican NT players are far more important profit drivers than the MNT players.
> 
> If USSF isn't going to base compensation on the actual value they provide, but only on the value they provide from some of the lesser revenue streams (and the ones that favor the men), it has no legitimate basis to value the men at a higher level and pay them more.  In other words, when someone earlier in this thread something about paying the WNT based on "perceived" rather than actual value, the fact is that they're paying the MNT more based on their "perceived", and not their actual overall value.


Disagree with quite a bit of what you said, but you do a good job of conveying your point.  The biggest issue I see is that your stance is entirely subjective and without any basis of facts.

Let's set aside FIFA prize money because we all know that greatly favors the men and no one will argue they bring in more from that standpoint.  Let's set aside gate receipts, because you are correct, this is peanuts compared to what we are really talking about.

The reason I disagree - the TV deal is a huge driving factor in generating income, and the facts have been put out that the USMNT significantly draws more viewers than the USWNT.  This isn't a 10%, 50% type of figure it is a multiple figure, especially in major tournaments.  Given these numbers are published, it would be fair to assume that TV revenue would favor the USMNT somewhere in the 70%-80% range.  If there were a mythical $100M TV deal, the men's ledger would show 70%-80% of that.  That is a huge gap in revenue generation.

Now let's look at Nike sponsorship.  I don't doubt at all that Alex Morgan sells more jerseys than the entire USMNT, but I haven't seen any figures to corroborate that.  That said, that isn't how kit deals are structured.  An equipment manufacture will look at current and potential future sales during the deals term to determine the annual $ figure they are willing to pay.  They will also take into account the number of eyeballs that see these teams in their gear - we know that greatly favors the men.  My guess the number of young boys and grown men that have purchased USMNT kits is far greater than the number of USWNT kits that are sold - but again, that is just my guess based on no factual evidence.  These equipment deals are not structured on a "kick-back" type of agreement, where USSF would get x% of proceeds from jersey sales.

The VW sponsorship deal would be similar to Nike, except they are really just paying for the number of eyeballs that see their logo on the jerseys, very similar to a commercial.  Again, this drastically favors the men.

I will agree with you that the USWNT, at this moment, may have a bigger power to grow the game.  But they need to do that first and then it should be reflected in the next sponsorship deals.  What I don't see is a top line or bottom line figure that puts the WNT anywhere close to the MNT.

I would actually argue the opposite of your take on USSF's negotiating tactics.  I think they negotiate these deals together so they can provide the WNT with the salaries and payments, which are the best in the world, to match their on field performance.  In a way, I think it is done to avoid conflict with the men's team, much more so than to hide anything from the women.  Most USSF revenue generating actions come down to how many consumers are touched, whether it be buying jerseys, selling tickets or watching on TV.  The fact of the matter is, the MNT provides more eyeballs (multiples of) than the WNT does.

Given the facts we have and using some subjectivity, if USSF's budget was $6 of every $10 generated toward their NT's - the men should receive $4.20 - $4.80 of that budgetary spend.  When adding prize money to the mix the gap widens even more.

Very interesting conversation.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 14, 2019)

Here you go...the data below include the World Cup years for both the Men and the Women so the data are full cycle.
The sponsorship deals have to be included in the equation. The new VW deal is most likely driven by the anticipation that the USWNT will do well in the upcoming WWC.

* 
Revenues        FY2017*   FY*2018*  FY*2019(E)      *FY*2020(E)* *2017-2020*
MNT Events:       $10.80        $10.80         $14.50        $20.40   = > >          $  56.50
WNT Events:       $14.60        $12.00         $10.30        $23.00   =  >>          $  59.90
Sponsorship:       $46.10        $48.90         $ 48.10       $ 52.70  =>>             $195.8

*all data in millions
Source is the 2019 Book of Reports for the USSF


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## MWN (Mar 14, 2019)

Part of the problem looking at this through a small (4 year) lens, is the results of the men are not typical of what we see during World Cup years and don't take into account the Collective Bargaining cycles.  Its rare that the men don't advance out of CONCACAF.  More importantly, we all need to appreciate that both the men and women have different types of collective bargaining agreements.  The men have bargained for a pay structure that is fundamentally different and riskier because its based solely on participation in USMNT games.  The women bargained for a pay structure that is "salary" like and includes payment for playing in the NWSL for the top women players.  We can't ignore this.

Why is this?  First, the men in the US Soccer pool know that a market exists for their services outside of the USMNT.  They are employed by European clubs and the semi-professional league in the US (I think its called the MLS ... need to google that).  They have salaries that pay them based on their market rates as top players.  When US Soccer calls the men into "camp" the men are often making less than they would if they stayed put with their clubs.   While MLS salaries are low compared to the rest of the world, the men making the USMNT and getting called into all the camps and games would make another $100k.  When some of our players are making millions per year, its a nice tip, but not why they are playing.

The women don't have a league that pays them salaries that rise to the level of a living wage.  The market for their services outside of the USWNT is low.  US Soccer and the USWNT players collectively bargained for a different deal.  We can't lose sight of the fact that US Soccer is also trying to fund Youth programs and other initiates with the money make from the marketing and broadcast dollars as well.  As it stands now, the 2017 collective bargaining agreement the USWNT agreed too righted a number of wrongs, but didn't give them everything they wanted, this lawsuit aims to do that but it will be an uphill battle given the structural difference between the men and women's collective bargaining agreements.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 14, 2019)

MWN would you at least concede that times have changed and that perhaps the pay should be adjusted UP for the women?

Looks that way to me. Why ??? The Nike deal and the VW deal seem to be game changers.

In the razor-razor blade model we sell the razor at cost and make all of our profit from selling replacement blades to the consumer at high margins. Similarly, the teams are becoming the razor to the razor blade of advertising deals. May I suggest that the USWNT and their relative success has a lot to do with the growth in sponsorships, the increased sales in razor blades as it were...Viewed in that way they can rightly demand "Show me the money!" But perhaps you and others disagree. Please note that I am not as hung up on whether they make more than the men but that they should make more than they have so far...the US Men help put things in perspective in my opinion.

I read that the VW deal is over $10 million but I do not know over how long or if that is annually...that would also make a giant difference in the analysis.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 14, 2019)

Regarding the argument that the USSF pays for NWLS, I only see an expenditure for $795,000 in the financials, which is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of this enterprise. Perhaps other NWLS expenses are buried in other line items but they are not called out in the published financials.  To put the "paltry" sum spent on NWLS in perspective, USSF spends $15 million on Administration, $6million on DA, $18 million on Development Programs, $5 million on Sports Medicine, $5 million on National Team Administration, and $ 10 million on Coaching Programs.


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## MWN (Mar 14, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> MWN would you at least concede that times have changed and that perhaps the pay should be adjusted UP for the women?
> 
> Looks that way to me. Why ??? The Nike deal and the VW deal seem to be game changers.
> 
> ...


Fundamentally, I don't have a problem paying the USWNT their "perceived value."  I also don't have a problem paying the women their "actual value."  Where I have a problem is paying any player, man or women a rate not in line with their "fair market value."  I also have a problem with the notion that the USWNT's World Cup path is equal to that of the men.  Its not and much easier for a women's team to make the world cup than it is for a men's team.  To qualify for the Women's World Cup, the USWNT plays 5 games over a two week period.  The USMNT play 16 games over a 2 year period.  Its simply not "Equal Work" and the roster bonuses paid to the men should be much higher given the greater risk.

I have a fundamental problem with the claims being made by the USWNT that they are being treated unequally, thus, illegally.  That's B.S.  They are treated unequally, because they bargained for a fundamentally different deal than the men.  Their current claims (I read the lawsuit) don't mention the fact that the core group is salaried employees of US Soccer and the men are independent contractors that only get paid for training camps and games.  From an employer perspective, its like my marketing department (WNT) complaining that the commissioned sales people (MNT) are paid more.  Damn straight, because the marketing people are not on commission and can earn substantially less or substantially more, the marketing people have a less risk adverse deal.  The USMNT players take the risk, the women don't take nearly the same risk. 

Moreover, the salary structure in place for the USWNT is going to bite the US in the butt, because it create a barrier to bringing in new blood.



soccerobserver said:


> Regarding the argument that the USSF pays for NWLS, I only see an expenditure for $795,000 in the financials, which is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of this enterprise. Perhaps other NWLS expenses are buried in other line items but they are not called out in the published financials.  To put the "paltry" sum spent on NWLS in perspective, USSF spends $15 million on Administration, $6million on DA, $18 million on Development Programs, $5 million on Sports Medicine, $5 million on National Team Administration, and $ 10 million on Coaching Programs.


The salaries paid to the USWNT for NWSL are reflected in the USWNT expense line item.  The additional money paid to the NWSL is to help support this insolvent league, not to pay USWNT salaries.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 14, 2019)

I hear you. I suppose I look at it with a different framework. To my way of thinking if you make a movie with live actors or a cartoon and the box office receipts are equal then the compensation for the talent is going to be similar. I also deal with salaried people versus commissioned salespeople and yes the ones with the higher upside are also exposed to much greater downside. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts, if it ever gets to trial.


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## End of the Line (Mar 15, 2019)

MWN said:


> I have a fundamental problem with the claims being made by the USWNT that they are being treated unequally, thus, illegally.  That's B.S.  They are treated unequally, because they bargained for a fundamentally different deal than the men.  Their current claims (I read the lawsuit) don't mention the fact that the core group is salaried employees of US Soccer and the men are independent contractors that only get paid for training camps and games.  From an employer perspective, its like my marketing department (WNT) complaining that the commissioned sales people (MNT) are paid more.  Damn straight, because the marketing people are not on commission and can earn substantially less or substantially more, the marketing people have a less risk adverse deal.  The USMNT players take the risk, the women don't take nearly the same risk.


Great, blame the victim.  It's not the women's fault they had to agree to a worse deal because USSF would not pay them equally, leaving them with two bad options, either less pay or no pay. 

Your hypothetical is a horrible one because it wrongly assumes the WNT (like the marketing department) deserve less opportunity than the MNT (sales department) without actually accounting for their real value. Why, exactly, isn't the MNT the less desirable marking department in your example anyway?  The fact is, a job title is not a "protected class", but women are, so you can't pay them less because you deem their work to be less valuable.  In other words, you can't just make the women work in the marketing department because you assume they're less valuable than men.

If you want a more accurate hypothetical, I'll give you one.  You have a man and a woman in your sales department (since they do the exact same job, just like the MNT and WNT players).  The male employee sucks and is borderline incompetent (just like the MNT) and you know he can't close the two biggest potential deals in company history (coincidentally with VW and Nike, go figure).  Because you and the male sales guy are part of the good old boy network, though, you create a commission structure that intentionally excludes the VW and Nike contracts from commission eligibility and then make the woman do all the hard work to seal the two biggest deals in company history.  Then you blame the woman for pointing out that your commission plan intentionally discriminates against women, and tell her it's her fault because she knew the whole time the company's commission structure that you created discriminates against women but she agreed to work here anyway.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 15, 2019)

EOL, do you know how much the VW deal is worth and how long it is for?  I have only read that it was an 8 figure deal.


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## soccerobserver (Mar 15, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> EOL, do you know how much the VW deal is worth and how long it is for?  I have only read that it was an 8 figure deal.


Ok I see the VW deal is 8 figures annually for 4 years and less than the Nike deal whose details are shown in the Book of Reports. If I assume the VW deal is $10-$15 million per year through 2022 then that will add $40-$60 million of almost pure profit to the pot.

*If you look at the total revenues from Fiscal 2014-2020(E) it breaks down as follows:
USMNT*:  $120 million
USWNT*:  $105 million
Sponsorship: $300 million*

* 2014-2020(E) includes 2 world cup cycles for both teams. I have slightly adjusted up the USSF forecast for the USWWC revenue since the USSF estimate was too conservative for the last WWC. Main source is the USSF Book of Reports

Based upon the data you can make the case that players should be paid equally as soccer players period.

With regard to expenses, the USSF pays about twice as much for the male youth teams as they pay for the women's youth teams. Also, USSF excludes coaching expenses from the expense line items for the US teams. Jill Ellis, the USWNT head coach, was paid slightly LESS then the men's U20 coach according to tax filings. Treatment and segregation of these expense items favors the men unfairly. Both teams lose money on the WC's but only if you exclude sponsorship which would be illogical to ignore.

The new deal takes sponsorship to record levels due arguably to the success of the USWNT given the timing and circumstances of the USMNT failing to qualify for the Olympics twice and then failing to qualify for the World Cup in 2018.

I can't speak to whether the USSF management (mainly men but that's irrelevant to me) are sexist, parsimonious, incompetent, greedy, or making an honest mistake. But it is clear to me the pay situation between the men and the women should be rectified.


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## HouseofCards (Mar 16, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Great, blame the victim.  It's not the women's fault they had to agree to a worse deal because USSF would not pay them equally, leaving them with two bad options, either less pay or no pay.
> 
> Your hypothetical is a horrible one because it wrongly assumes the WNT (like the marketing department) deserve less opportunity than the MNT (sales department) without actually accounting for their real value. Why, exactly, isn't the MNT the less desirable marking department in your example anyway?  The fact is, a job title is not a "protected class", but women are, so you can't pay them less because you deem their work to be less valuable.  In other words, you can't just make the women work in the marketing department because you assume they're less valuable than men.
> 
> If you want a more accurate hypothetical, I'll give you one.  You have a man and a woman in your sales department (since they do the exact same job, just like the MNT and WNT players).  The male employee sucks and is borderline incompetent (just like the MNT) and you know he can't close the two biggest potential deals in company history (coincidentally with VW and Nike, go figure).  Because you and the male sales guy are part of the good old boy network, though, you create a commission structure that intentionally excludes the VW and Nike contracts from commission eligibility and then make the woman do all the hard work to seal the two biggest deals in company history.  Then you blame the woman for pointing out that your commission plan intentionally discriminates against women, and tell her it's her fault because she knew the whole time the company's commission structure that you created discriminates against women but she agreed to work here anyway.


What about the Paralympic team? They are a protected class also. Should they be paid the same?


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## espola (Mar 16, 2019)

HouseofCards said:


> What about the Paralympic team? They are a protected class also. Should they be paid the same?


Does hearing the term "protected class" make you melt, little snowflake?


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## MWN (Mar 17, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Great, blame the victim.  It's not the women's fault they had to agree to a worse deal because USSF would not pay them equally, leaving them with two bad options, either less pay or no pay.
> 
> Your hypothetical is a horrible one because it wrongly assumes the WNT (like the marketing department) deserve less opportunity than the MNT (sales department) without actually accounting for their real value. Why, exactly, isn't the MNT the less desirable marking department in your example anyway?  The fact is, a job title is not a "protected class", but women are, so you can't pay them less because you deem their work to be less valuable.  In other words, you can't just make the women work in the marketing department because you assume they're less valuable than men.
> 
> If you want a more accurate hypothetical, I'll give you one.  You have a man and a woman in your sales department (since they do the exact same job, just like the MNT and WNT players).  The male employee sucks and is borderline incompetent (just like the MNT) and you know he can't close the two biggest potential deals in company history (coincidentally with VW and Nike, go figure).  Because you and the male sales guy are part of the good old boy network, though, you create a commission structure that intentionally excludes the VW and Nike contracts from commission eligibility and then make the woman do all the hard work to seal the two biggest deals in company history.  Then you blame the woman for pointing out that your commission plan intentionally discriminates against women, and tell her it's her fault because she knew the whole time the company's commission structure that you created discriminates against women but she agreed to work here anyway.


My hypothetical is on point.  We have two different contracts that were negotiated, with the women fully aware of men's terms, so nobody was hiding any balls or keeping secrets.  The men negotiated a riskier deal that pays them for only their participation on the USMNT; the Women negotiated a salary that pays them for participating in the NWSL and USWNT.  Now the women are saying "Wait a second ... not fair."  We want to keep our NWSL bonuses (_that the men don't get_) and also get paid the same per game as the men.  Sorry, but your hypothetical ignores/attempts to rewrite this important fact.  2 years ago (2017), the women renegotiated their collective bargaining agreement that was purposely different to meet the realities of the market.  We also cannot forget that at the time there were pending claims by 5 players alleging pay discrimination, the 2017 deal addressed many of the complaints, and gave back pay for some items and equalized many of the items (travel, per diem, etc.), but kept the salary structure in place because the players could not make a living wage playing on the NWSL salary, they needed US Soccer to "help out," which it did.

US Soccer currently subsidizes the NWSL directly to the tune of $750k per year PLUS it pays millions to the top USWNT to play in the NWSL under the collective bargaining agreement, which is something the men don't get because ... they have a different deal.

If the parties want to renegotiate their deal, there is a time and place for it ... at the next collective bargaining cycle.


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## Sheriff Joe (Mar 17, 2019)

espola said:


> Does hearing the term "protected class" make you melt, little snowflake?


Sounds like it had that affect on you, snowflake.


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## End of the Line (Mar 17, 2019)

MWN said:


> My hypothetical is on point.  We have two different contracts that were negotiated, with the women fully aware of men's terms, so nobody was hiding any balls or keeping secrets.  The men negotiated a riskier deal that pays them for only their participation on the USMNT; the Women negotiated a salary that pays them for participating in the NWSL and USWNT.  Now the women are saying "Wait a second ... not fair."  We want to keep our NWSL bonuses (_that the men don't get_) and also get paid the same per game as the men.  Sorry, but your hypothetical ignores/attempts to rewrite this important fact.  2 years ago (2017), the women renegotiated their collective bargaining agreement that was purposely different to meet the realities of the market.  We also cannot forget that at the time there were pending claims by 5 players alleging pay discrimination, the 2017 deal addressed many of the complaints, and gave back pay for some items and equalized many of the items (travel, per diem, etc.), but kept the salary structure in place because the players could not make a living wage playing on the NWSL salary, they needed US Soccer to "help out," which it did.
> 
> US Soccer currently subsidizes the NWSL directly to the tune of $750k per year PLUS it pays millions to the top USWNT to play in the NWSL under the collective bargaining agreement, which is something the men don't get because ... they have a different deal.
> 
> If the parties want to renegotiate their deal, there is a time and place for it ... at the next collective bargaining cycle.


Sounds like the WNT decided the time and place for a new deal is right now in federal court.

Going forward, I recommend that you run personnel decisions through legal counsel first.  Just a suggestion.


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## younothat (May 8, 2019)

U.S. Soccer still doesn’t get it as it prepares to fight against equal pay
https://sports.yahoo.com/us-soccer-still-doesnt-get-it-as-it-prepares-to-fight-against-equal-pay-060521786.html

The federation’s persistence with this self-inflicted public relations nightmare is baffling. It willingly frames itself as the penny-pinching overlord pitted against one of the nation’s most popular teams, just months before it begins its World Cup title defense in France.

U.S. Soccer’s lesser-used argument that the reason for the disparity in pay in most years is a function of different pay structures — the women are essentially full-time employees with benefits, while the men are paid entirely in bonuses — isn’t without merit. And the federation can also point to the collective bargaining agreement, paying them less than the men, that the women willingly and knowingly signed just over two years ago, well after this standoff began.

Instead, U.S. Soccer continues to focus on revenue. And that’s where its argument falls flat.

*Because as a non-profit, the federation really has no standing to reduce a moral quandary to money. The point of non-profits is that, exempt from income taxes and fiduciary obligations to shareholders, they can do the work that needs to be done, rather than pursue profit.*

So while pointing to a discrepancy in revenue between the men’s and women’s programs — if you accept that it exists — is, at face value, not entirely unreasonable, it rings hollow in a non-profit setting. It is, besides, far outweighed by the overwhelming and broadly held sense that paying the men and women the same, however that redounds to the bottom line, is simply the right thing to do. Even if they don’t bring in the same amount of money, which remains disputed.

That’s what non-profits exist for: to serve the greater good.

It would take only a few million dollars a year to bridge the pay gap between men and women. To make things right. That’s easily covered by the surpluses the federation is running, undermining any case that the money somehow isn’t there.

isn’t a business no longer holds up. Maybe U.S. Soccer should start paying taxes on its operating profits — almost $11 million in 2017 and more than $46 million in 2016, according to&nbsp;the federation’s most recent Form 990 — or indeed the nine-figure reserves and investments it reportedly sits on.

And this is a corner U.S. Soccer has backed itself into by forcing the team into a debate on revenue, rather than just equality. Because this is a losing issue.

In its defense filed on Monday, the federation essentially argued that the women’s team isn’t entitled to equal pay because it isn’t doing equal work. It reckons this is true because the teams exist in separate frameworks.

The document calls the two programs “physically and functionally separate organizations that perform services for U.S. Soccer in physically separate spaces and compete in different competitions, venues and countries at different times; have different coaches, staff and leadership; have separate collective bargaining agreements; and have separate budgets that take into account the different revenue that the teams generate.”

There’s that revenue argument again. Which is a thin defense when you consider that sponsorship and broadcast rights, the largest sources of income by far, are bundled with the men’s national team — and in the case of the TV rights even with Major League Soccer. So who is to say, exactly, how much the women’s share is even worth?

But then U.S. Soccer somehow also alleges that the pay gap has nothing to do with gender, according to Miki Turner, a Washington lawyer who broke down the defense on Twitter.

This not only contradicts the idea that revenues must be compared — while competition, performance and compensation somehow can’t — but also denigrates the women’s game, and indeed the USA’s decades-long dominance of it. Read one way, it implies that the Americans are only dominating because the women’s game is weaker. Read another, the World Cup-winning women’s enormous success doesn’t count as heavily as success from the World Cup-missing men might.

Perhaps that’s an unfair interpretation of the legalese, but then that’s the sort of criticism the federation exposed itself to. By fighting this unjustifiable fight, all U.S. Soccer does is raise questions about why, exactly, it remains hell-bent on denying its best team the equality it is morally, and perhaps legally, entitled to.

The federation prides itself on being a pioneer in its investment in the women’s program, and rightly so. Guaranteed equal pay is the natural extension of that. But instead of taking another victory lap for its success in a promising Women’s World Cup year, U.S. Soccer prepares to face the stars and media darlings it created in a courtroom, in spite of the desperately bad optics.

And all in the service of an argument that misses the point.

This was never about revenue. It’s about doing the right thing.


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## El Clasico (May 8, 2019)

Why copy and paste an opinion piece from a yahoo writer?


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## outside! (May 8, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> Why copy and paste an opinion piece from a yahoo writer?


This is a soccer forum.


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## younothat (May 8, 2019)

I dunno why did Uber and Lyft drivers go on strike today...... to improve wages 

LS is not my favorite writer or nor is yahoo but there is a couple of good points worth considerations and saves you the clicks/ads by including the content not just a link


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## Dos Equis (May 8, 2019)

While I agree with the writer's assertion that equal pay is the morally right thing to pursue, and US Soccer cannot hide behind the collective bargaining agreement for all its past disparities in treatment, this yahoo writer has a fundamental misperception in their view that non-profits are established or legally obligated to serve the greater good. 

I find it difficult for US Soccer  to argue they are separate entities when the television revenues are indeed sold as a package.  However, I am not sure what the impact would be of separating those rights.  It is entirely possible that the women's game alone would not generate very large TV bids.  Other than World Cup and Olympics, there is very little demand for women's soccer on TV.  Does US Soccer own the rights to the TV/streaming broadcasts of Olympic and World Cup Soccer?  I do not think so.  So for WNT  you are selling She Believes Cup, friendlies, and what, NWSL on Lifetime?  

I am skeptical of SUM and its marketing deal, but I do agree that when it comes to domestic soccer on TV in the US, the packaged whole (Men's,, Women's, MLS)  may be worth more to a broadcaster selling advertising than the sum of the individual parts.


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## Real Deal (May 8, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> While I agree with the writer's assertion that equal pay is the morally right thing to pursue, and US Soccer cannot hide behind the collective bargaining agreement for all its past disparities in treatment, this yahoo writer has a fundamental misperception in their view that non-profits are established or legally obligated to serve the greater good.
> 
> I find it difficult for US Soccer  to argue they are separate entities when the television revenues are indeed sold as a package.  However, I am not sure what the impact would be of separating those rights.  It is entirely possible that the women's game alone would not generate very large TV bids.  Other than World Cup and Olympics, there is very little demand for women's soccer on TV.  Does US Soccer own the rights to the TV/streaming broadcasts of Olympic and World Cup Soccer?  I do not think so.  So for WNT  you are selling She Believes Cup, friendlies, and what, NWSL on Lifetime?
> 
> I am skeptical of SUM and its marketing deal, but I do agree that when it comes to domestic soccer on TV in the US, the packaged whole (Men's,, Women's, MLS)  may be worth more to a broadcaster selling advertising than the sum of the individual parts.


Maybe the solution is to lower the mens' salaries then... ...

Sheesh I'll bet more people have heard of Alex Morgan than maybe 99.9% of the MLS players.... especially now with the Sports Illustrated cover....


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## gotothebushes (May 8, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> Maybe the solution is to lower the mens' salaries then... ...
> 
> ...Because I'll bet more people have heard of Alex Morgan than maybe 99.9% of the MLS players.... especially now with the Sports Illustrated cover....



You are so RIGHT my friend!!


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## Soccerfan2 (May 9, 2019)

Great article with a lot of history I’d bet most don’t know of. 

https://apple.news/AFuUcRpxASHCx0AetMOIcvQ


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## soccerobserver (Jun 5, 2019)

Fivethirtyeight released their statistical power rankings of the Women's World Cup teams...according the them France, US, and Germany have best chances to win and in that order...

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2019-womens-world-cup-predictions/


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 5, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Fivethirtyeight released their statistical power rankings of the Women's World Cup teams...according the them France, US, and Germany have best chances to win and in that order...
> 
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2019-womens-world-cup-predictions/


France, USA and Netherlands would be my picks.  I have France vs Netherlands in my bracket.  I sure hope that I am wrong.


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## oh canada (Jun 5, 2019)

Germany defense is too slow.  France always chokes before they get to the final, so I think USA beats them in the quarters in PKs.  If the brackets set up for it (haven't seen them all), I'd say USA vs. Australia in the Final.

USA can lose if a team is bold and fit enough to high press entire game.  But I don't see that happening.  Maybe for a half. They will get a lot of ManU park the bus.  Sweden will try it first. Only a few players on that team with the skills to consistently break a high press.  Carli Lloyd shows that she is still a better 9 than the overhyped Alex Morgan.  Naher does fine in goal.  

Best games of the tournament are between teams ranked 4-10.  Canada hopefully wins group.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 6, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Germany defense is too slow.  France always chokes before they get to the final, so I think USA beats them in the quarters in PKs.  If the brackets set up for it (haven't seen them all), I'd say USA vs. Australia in the Final.
> 
> USA can lose if a team is bold and fit enough to high press entire game.  But I don't see that happening.  Maybe for a half. They will get a lot of ManU park the bus.  Sweden will try it first. Only a few players on that team with the skills to consistently break a high press.  Carli Lloyd shows that she is still a better 9 than the overhyped Alex Morgan.  Naher does fine in goal.
> 
> Best games of the tournament are between teams ranked 4-10.  Canada hopefully wins group.


Netherlands beat Australia last week 3-0.


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## oh canada (Jun 6, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Netherlands beat Australia last week 3-0.


Fair point.  And New Zealand beat England also.  I think there will be several surprising #2s coming out of groups.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 6, 2019)

France will be tough to beat!


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 7, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> France will be tough to beat!


I have France over the Netherlands in the final. I hope that I am wrong.  Go USA!!


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## Dubs (Jun 7, 2019)

France looks really sharp.  Extremely attractive football.  US definitely has it's work cut out if they get to play them.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 7, 2019)

Dubs said:


> France looks really sharp.  Extremely attractive football.  US definitely has it's work cut out if they get to play them.


They are as athletic as the USA and better technically.  My money says that this is their breakthrough tournament.


----------



## Dubs (Jun 7, 2019)

US can match them pound for pound, but our back line will be tested consistently.  France has excellent speed and technical ability in the wide areas and their D likes to push up and get in the attack just like us.


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## oh canada (Jun 7, 2019)

On corners, Ertz will be covering that 6'2" French Lebron like linebackers cover her husband.  I don't think France scores off a corner vs. the U.S. for that reason.  But, do agree that they are technically better than the stars/stripes crew.  US will get chances.  Can they convert?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> On corners, Ertz will be covering that 6'2" French Lebron like linebackers cover her husband.  I don't think France scores off a corner vs. the U.S. for that reason.  But, do agree that they are technically better than the stars/stripes crew.  US will get chances.  Can they convert?



I hope so but my money is on France winning it over the Netherlands.  I hope that Jill gets lucky like 2015.  That way I can enjoy my meal and my beers and pretend like we planned it that way.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 7, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I hope so but my money is on France winning it over the Netherlands.  I hope that Jill gets lucky like 2015.  That way I can enjoy my meal and my beers and pretend like we planned it that way.


You and Ricky Fowler have an infatuation with orange...that game vs. Australia is on youtube...Netherlands scored thrice but Australia controlled much of that game.  And played better soccer.  Still, it was 3-0, not 1-0, I get it.  But, a lot of play over the top by Netherlands...don't think that can get them all the way to the Final.  Dutch do have some exciting players and look solid on the backline.   I don't think playing cupcakes in group (not Sweden) will help US.  And likely the first elimination round game will be a blowout too.  Most Americans will not start watching until the semi-finals, unfortunately.  If they can't get past France in the Quarters, only the soccer fanatics like us will have watched.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> You and Ricky Fowler have an infatuation with orange...that game vs. Australia is on youtube...Netherlands scored thrice but Australia controlled much of that game.  And played better soccer.  Still, it was 3-0, not 1-0, I get it.  But, a lot of play over the top by Netherlands...don't think that can get them all the way to the Final.  Dutch do have some exciting players and look solid on the backline.   I don't think playing cupcakes in group (not Sweden) will help US.  And likely the first elimination round game will be a blowout too.  Most Americans will not start watching until the semi-finals, unfortunately.  If they can't get past France in the Quarters, only the soccer fanatics like us will have watched.


I hear you and you and I actually aren’t far apart when it comes to what we think about the women’s game.  I watched Netherlands run to the UEFA title and I believe they weren’t lucky. They aren’t deep but can beat anyone.  Personally I hope that it ends up USA vs Canada with the USA winning with a 75th minute goal.  I am biased though and my checkbook says that the home team wins a close one against our ladies.  

Again I hope that I am wrong.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 7, 2019)

Oh and it is Ricky Fandango.  The one and only.

Good luck to you and your player.


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## oh canada (Jun 7, 2019)

I'm optimistic (and thanks for the good maple leaf wishes), but my realist side says Canada finishes #2 in Group - they got a tough draw.  In meantime, I will watch Drake struggle to stay off the court while my Raptors follow Kawhi to the crown


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## ToonArmy (Jun 8, 2019)

oh canada said:


> I'm optimistic (and thanks for the good maple leaf wishes), but my realist side says Canada finishes #2 in Group - they got a tough draw.  In meantime, I will watch Drake struggle to stay off the court while my Raptors follow Kawhi to the crown


Don't forget Kawhi from our hometown So Cal.  King high in Legends FC territory. Then again DeRozan is a SoCal kid too


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## Justafan (Jun 8, 2019)

ToonArmy said:


> Don't forget Kawhi from our hometown So Cal.  King high in Legends FC territory. Then again DeRozan is a SoCal kid too


And Klay, Harden, Westbrook, George, K Love, the  Holiday bros., Ariza, ..... Would love to claim Lillard, but he’s from NoCal.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 9, 2019)

Nobody saw that Italian victory coming.  It was well deserved too as they had two other goals taken off the board.  It looks like the European federations have gotten serious about the women’s game...


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 9, 2019)

Dubs said:


> US can match them pound for pound, but our back line will be tested consistently.  France has excellent speed and technical ability in the wide areas and their D likes to push up and get in the attack just like us.


Their front 3 is as good as ours and their midfield and defense is better.  They have good attacking depth off the bench and that is going to challenge us defensively.  It is going to be very interesting.  The European federation has a bunch of really good teams.  They could easily get all 4 semifinal spots.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 9, 2019)

I like Japan and Canada to win tomorrow.


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## oh canada (Jun 10, 2019)

Sunday's games should be a reminder to all teams that you can't just score 1 or 2 goals and then expect to win.  Australia doesn't take advantage of their many opportunities, falls asleep, and gets stung by an Italy squad that was better than everyone expected.  Happy for Italy who is a soccer crazed country, with one of the best teams in the World (Juve), who missed out on the mens world cup last summer.  

England too got the same scare after controlling the game but then Scotland gets a goal in the last 20' to make them only one corner or deflection away from leveling the score and getting only 1 point vs. 3.  

Jamaica goalie the best I've seen so far.  US college kid from one of the small Carolina schools.  18 years old.  Love seeing US kids who have been passed over by the all-political and overly bloated US Soccer thrive on the World stage.  Awesome for her.


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## outside! (Jun 10, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Jamaica goalie the best I've seen so far.  US college kid from one of the small Carolina schools.  18 years old.  Love seeing US kids who have been passed over by the all-political and overly bloated US Soccer thrive on the World stage.  Awesome for her.


I was very impressed by Schneider.


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## oh canada (Jun 10, 2019)

Two more thoughts...

1.  Norway is no joke.  Play beautiful soccer.  Midfield more skilled than USA and I'd put them right up there with Canada's midfield.  

2.  I am shocked how seldom the referees are issuing yellow cards.  It's ridiculous how many reckless challenges are being allowed without cards and sometimes without whistles.  The women's game more resembles NFL than the men's--concussions, broken legs, torn ACLs.  I don't remember thinking the same for any men's soccer tourney (quite the opposite actually - too much simulation/diving/Neymars).   Referees have the power to dictate whether games will be decided on skill or brutality.  Love seeing the female refs, but they gotta have the "balls" to keep these women playing soccer, not rugby.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 10, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Two more thoughts...
> 
> 1.  Norway is no joke.  Play beautiful soccer.  Midfield more skilled than USA and I'd put them right up there with Canada's midfield.
> 
> 2.  I am shocked how seldom the referees are issuing yellow cards.  It's ridiculous how many reckless challenges are being allowed without cards and sometimes without whistles.  The women's game more resembles NFL than the men's--concussions, broken legs, torn ACLs.  I don't remember thinking the same for any men's soccer tourney (quite the opposite actually - too much simulation/diving/Neymars).   Referees have the power to dictate whether games will be decided on skill or brutality.  Love seeing the female refs, but they gotta have the "balls" to keep these women playing soccer, not rugby.


Norway’s defense is bad.  I agree 100% about what the refs are allowing.  China brutalized Germany and Scotland was quite aggressive too against England.


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## outside! (Jun 10, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Norway’s defense is bad.  I agree 100% about what the refs are allowing.  China brutalized Germany and Scotland was quite aggressive too against England.


The Germany China game was hard to watch. Sooo many late hits. Refs need to step it up.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 10, 2019)

This Japan/Argentina game is intense.  The Japanese are relentless but Argentina is just refusing to break.  The rest of the world is playing soccer now and it has raised the level of the women's game significantly!


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 10, 2019)

What an amazing goal for Canada's Kadeisha Buchanan!  She few in from about the top of the 18 with a header goal on a corner kick in first half stoppage time!


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 10, 2019)

Fleming started at forward for team Canada along with Christine Sinclair.  Their current captain alongside their future captain...


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## oh canada (Jun 10, 2019)

this game is getting ugly in second half...ref needs to gain back control.  first half she did a great job.  Canada not connecting as well now, mostly bc Cameroon fouling in midfield.  

Beckie and Flem float all over the field.  "Forward" in name only.  Sinclair a half-step slow at 34 but still has that golden touch.  Wingbacks playing well.  Hopefully can hold on for 3pts


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 10, 2019)

oh canada said:


> this game is getting ugly in second half...ref needs to gain back control.  first half she did a great job.  Canada not connecting as well now, mostly bc Cameroon fouling in midfield.
> 
> Beckie and Flem float all over the field.  "Forward" in name only.  Sinclair a half-step slow at 34 but still has that golden touch.  Wingbacks playing well.  Hopefully can hold on for 3pts


Canada survived against a physical team.  Lot's of different styles in this tournament.  The teams with flexibility will do well.


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## New Guest from the South (Jun 10, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Nobody saw that Italian victory coming.  It was well deserved too as they had two other goals taken off the board.  It looks like the European federations have gotten serious about the women’s game...


And they obviously watched Netherland feed the ball behind the back line again and again in the 3-0 game agains Australia.  Australia did not get the wake up call from that game......


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## Gokicksomegrass (Jun 10, 2019)

The game to watch for me and my dd.
Weds June 12 Germany vs Spain. Power vs Elegance.
Prediction: 2-1 Germany

Brutality game to watch. Who can foul the most and not get a red?
South Africa vs. China PR.  Thursday June 13. 
Prediction: China PR first red card at 67 min.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2019)

That game between the Netherlands and New Zealand was a good one.  The Dutch are relentless.  Is it just me or does the Dutch coach look like the most seriously intense person involved in the entire World Cup?


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## oh canada (Jun 11, 2019)

USA v. Thailand (pre-kickoff):

if final score is 3-0 or less...disappointing

4-0 to 6-0...meeting expectations but still hmmmm

7-0 or more...good performance and something to smile about

Jill should use all of her subs.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jun 11, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That game between the Netherlands and New Zealand was a good one.  The Dutch are relentless.  Is it just me or does the Dutch coach look like the most seriously intense person involved in the entire World Cup?


She aged exponentially as the game progressed. Hopefully she has wine later to decompress.


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## foreveryoung (Jun 11, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That game between the Netherlands and New Zealand was a good one.  The Dutch are relentless.  Is it just me or does the Dutch coach look like the most seriously intense person involved in the entire World Cup?


They were really fun to watch.  I hope we get to see how they match up against USA.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2019)

I love them having HAO, Kelly Smith and that German chick doing studio commentary.  They all have a great understanding of the game and it is great to have the ladies there engaged.  The less we have to hear Alexi Lalas talk about the women's game the better.  He should try watching more of the competition and doing the research instead of just scanning his pre-match notes...


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## LASTMAN14 (Jun 11, 2019)

outside! said:


> The Germany China game was hard to watch. Sooo many late hits. Refs need to step it up.


After watching the first half of the US vs Thailand game the ref's allowed two fouls to occur in the Thailand box. After the referee made the on field call they then referred to VAR. The VAR decision was in line with the referee's call. All I have to say is what the WTF are they looking at. My point is what criteria are they basing these calls on. Its apparent its not logical. Hope this changes to protect the players. Its in the best interest of all for teams to be able to put their best lineups out there for competitive purposes and avoid potential injuries from fouls.


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## pulguita (Jun 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> After watching the first half of the US vs Thailand game the ref's allowed two fouls to occur in the Thailand box. After the referee made the on field call they then referred to VAR. The VAR decision was in line with the referee's call. All I have to say is what the WTF are they looking at. My point is what criteria are they basing these calls on. Its apparent its not logical. Hope this changes to protect the players. Its in the best interest of all for teams to be able to put their best lineups out there for competitive purposes and avoid potential injuries from fouls.


The game is pathetic and even more pathetic is the celebrations by our team.  FFS act like you have been there before.


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## TangoCity (Jun 11, 2019)

oh canada said:


> USA v. Thailand (pre-kickoff):
> 
> if final score is 3-0 or less...disappointing
> 
> ...


How about 13-0?


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## LASTMAN14 (Jun 11, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> How about 13-0?


Was that score even on the Bell Curve!


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## TangoCity (Jun 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Was that score even on the Bell Curve!


Would've been 14-0 but Morgan missed the extra point.


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## oh canada (Jun 11, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> How about 13-0?


Good result.  Glad they could have fun with this one.  As they will with Chile.  Thailand is the worst team in the tournament and Chile may be 2nd worst.  If Thailand doesn't score vs. Chile, they should be relegated from the next WC in 4 years   Neither game will help US prepare for Sweden.  But at least they should get 6 points and go into that third game healthy.

Twitter lighting up about USA excessively celebrating.  I don't have a problem with it---a lot of pressure on these women, enjoy it.  But when people start citing goal totals as proof of a player's talent, this game is Exhibit A for evidence that goals don't always = skill.  Also why the Golden Boot award is skewed too.  They shouldn't count goals until the knockout rounds. 

Haven't watched Netherlands v. New Zealand yet, but MAP has me anxious to see the women in orange.  Thought I'd never say this but I think Mertens may be a better wing than Heath and Rapinoe.


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## oh canada (Jun 11, 2019)

As long as the US women don't celebrate with "3 pumps" I'm ok with it (well, actually 3 pumps by them may be ok in my book too):


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## electrichead72 (Jun 11, 2019)

I get that perhaps they need a cushion for GD, but 13-0 seems a little rough to me.

There were probably 4 or 5 more there they could've had also. 

Even my kid's coaches tell them to take it easy once they are at 5 or 6 to 0. No need to embarrass the other team.


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## Dos Equis (Jun 11, 2019)

It is the World Cup, the should play each moment with the highest level of intensity . . . like it is the World Cup.  

Want to set the women's game back a few decades?  Encourage teams with big leads to play keep away during the World Cup.  Unless you have some link to Thailand, it was still an entertaining game to watch. The US was playing very good soccer, with the possible exception of Heath and, to a lesser extent, Rapinoe (though her effort was world class).


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## eastbaysoccer (Jun 11, 2019)

They ran the score up.  Should have kept a 6/7 goal cushion and cruise.  13-0 is like 99-0 in football or beating a team by 60 points in basketball.  Sweden will pose more of a threat.  Let’s hope the US didn’t run out of goals.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Good result.  Glad they could have fun with this one.  As they will with Chile.  Thailand is the worst team in the tournament and Chile may be 2nd worst.  If Thailand doesn't score vs. Chile, they should be relegated from the next WC in 4 years   Neither game will help US prepare for Sweden.  But at least they should get 6 points and go into that third game healthy.
> 
> Twitter lighting up about USA excessively celebrating.  I don't have a problem with it---a lot of pressure on these women, enjoy it.  But when people start citing goal totals as proof of a player's talent, this game is Exhibit A for evidence that goals don't always = skill.  Also why the Golden Boot award is skewed too.  They shouldn't count goals until the knockout rounds.
> 
> Haven't watched Netherlands v. New Zealand yet, but MAP has me anxious to see the women in orange.  Thought I'd never say this but I think Mertens may be a better wing than Heath and Rapinoe.


It’s worth the watch.  Tom Sermani is coaching New Zealand so they had a game plan that almost worked.  Even with the Dutch having the vast majority of possession it was as close as the score.  The front 3 of the Dutch team might be the best in the world and that includes the attacking trios sported by the US and France.


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## Dos Equis (Jun 11, 2019)

Agree with MAP that our front three is a concern (hard to admit that with 13 goals on the board), as I thought two of the three had a rough time.  But Morgan's finishing was outstanding. If she can maintain that level throughout the tournament, and Rapinoe's touch issues are a one game fluke, they will score goals.  

Lavelle was terrific as well, and she played like a younger, less selfish. more energetic version of Heath.  HAve we finally put together a good midfield?  If I was Ellis, I sit Heath next game and start Press (though she will favor Pugh). Lastly, O'Hara needs to remember she is a defender first.  She will not be able to recover from the mistakes she made today when she is facing the top 3-4 teams in this tournament.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Agree with MAP that our front three is a concern (hard to admit that with 13 goals on the board), as I thought two of the three had a rough time.  But Morgan's finishing was outstanding. If she can maintain that level throughout the tournament, and Rapinoe's touch issues are a one game fluke, they will score goals.
> 
> Lavelle was terrific as well, and she played like a younger, less selfish. more energetic version of Heath.  HAve we finally put together a good midfield?  If I was Ellis, I sit Heath next game and start Press (though she will favor Pugh). Lastly, O'Hara needs to remember she is a defender first.  She will not be able to recover from the mistakes she made today when she is facing the top 3-4 teams in this tournament.


Jill will break up the band in the midfield in favor of Yoko Ono (Ertz) once she “has” to play Sauerbrun.  They were playing together too well today so she won’t like that.  I just hope that our cupcake bracket doesn’t get our team overconfident.


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## Surfref (Jun 11, 2019)

Nothing wrong with 13-0.  This is the World Cup and not some U10 youth game, so why not run up the score.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 11, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> It is the World Cup, the should play each moment with the highest level of intensity . . . like it is the World Cup.
> 
> Want to set the women's game back a few decades?  Encourage teams with big leads to play keep away during the World Cup.  Unless you have some link to Thailand, it was still an entertaining game to watch. The US was playing very good soccer, with the possible exception of Heath and, to a lesser extent, Rapinoe (though her effort was world class).


Can someone please tell rapinoe to put some make up on?


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## Dos Equis (Jun 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Can someone please tell rapinoe to put some make up on?


Really, that's your take away?


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## Supermodel56 (Jun 11, 2019)

Surfref said:


> Nothing wrong with 13-0.  This is the World Cup and not some U10 youth game, so why not run up the score.


Nothing wrong with running up the score... but even if they are excited to be in the World Cup, some of their celebrations were a bit too over the top and classless. 

Their argument that if it were men, nobody would say anything is completely false. If a men’s team were to go up 13-0 and players still celebrated like that anytime past 6, they’d get punched in the mouth. 

For first timers, I get it. Pugh’s first World Cup goal (hopefully of many) Morgan’s record fifth in a game... I think both of them handled it well. but Rapino doing the shaky leg when you’re already up 8-0 on a team that clearly sucks, was purely classless. It’s not like they won the World Cup or her goal was the equalizer in a tight game. It’s not even her first World Cup. In fact, her goal in this game wasn’t really much of an accomplishment at all.


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## timbuck (Jun 11, 2019)

Will there be targets on players in the next few games because of this?
If you’re Chile and down 4-0 against the US and Sweden has already beaten Thailand on Sunday.   Do you put in a little street justice?


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## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Will there be targets on players in the next few games because of this?
> If you’re Chile and down 4-0 against the US and Sweden has already beaten Thailand on Sunday.   Do you put in a little street justice?


The celebration after the first goal against the US will show how it is being received.


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## Supermodel56 (Jun 12, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Will there be targets on players in the next few games because of this?
> If you’re Chile and down 4-0 against the US and Sweden has already beaten Thailand on Sunday.   Do you put in a little street justice?


Hard to say. The more I think about this, given the significantly larger investment in trying to promote the women’s game, it’s very possible sponsors, or who knows who, put them up to this. Some of it seemed out of character and out of place - almost like they were trying to hard.... to the point they were obnoxious. In a bunch of the Hulu ads they talk about selling out. If they gave the other team a heads up this was going to happen, maybe the other team does nothing and let’s it go.

The Thai players handled it well, but Asians tend to stay in control of their emotions more and show respect regardless of situation. If Chile doesn’t get a heads up that the celebrations are staged, I can see some street justice happening possibly. What’s most likely to happen is if/when the US women start facing tougher teams, goals against are also going to be rubbed in their face and the tougher teams are going to be ruthless. It really is gonna be the world against the US.


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## MARsSPEED (Jun 12, 2019)

Imagine if a man celebrated the way Rapinoe celebrated even if the score was 5-0. 

I would likely bet a red card would come out shortly after as well as a stretcher.


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## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

Coming into the tournament, Thailand was ranked 34th by FIFA.  The next opponent, Chile, is ranked 39th.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Karma is a bitch.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Really, that's your take away?


Just messing with you.


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## ChargerPride (Jun 12, 2019)

What do we tell our kids, what do you hear others tell their kids. Play the full 90 minutes. Play like every game is the Finals. It was only 3-0 at the half. Yet somehow the VAR officials missed 2 obvious calls ( not sure VAR is any better, but only time will tell). Thailand could have stopped attacking altogether and focused on D. So why not celebrate at the biggest stage, I agree a more subdued celebration than Rapinoe ( I don't much care for her anyways). Once I heard the record was 11 and they tied. Why not try and break it. Put it in the record books, for posterity reasons. Really if you can't play your best at the highest stage, then when can you?


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## Soccer43 (Jun 12, 2019)

I don't think people are having a problem with the score but the high level of celebration that seemed troublesome for some.


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## Dos Equis (Jun 12, 2019)

Some of the celebrations were excessive, particularly for players who have been there before. 

Then again, Barry Sanders was one of my favorite players, and I tell my own children not to act like they just scored a goal in the World Cup, so I am neither objective in my view nor consistent in my analogies.


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## Just A Dad (Jun 12, 2019)

it seemed like when i was watching the games everyone was talking about how exciting the celebrations are and how its great to see the joy in the players until it came to the American's doing it.  Im not a fan of celebrating but its the world cup and it only happens every 4 years. lets not forget how it went for the Atlanta Falcons when they let up in the super bowl with a 28-3 lead.


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## soccerobserver (Jun 12, 2019)

NYPost says USWNT being ripped for over the top classless behavior after running up the score on one of the weakest teams in the tournament. Here is the link w video:  https://nypost.com/2019/06/12/uswnt-ripped-for-over-the-top-celebrations/


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Just messing with you.


That kind of joke isn't funny.  We live in a country where many minority groups are marginalized.  Women although the actual majority are part of that marginalized group.  Something so silly as not wearing makeup and your commentary on it is disgusting.  My mom and my wife don't wear makeup regularly and both are extremely successful.  Why would it matter if a woman, let alone a powerful and successful one, wear makeup?

You need to stick to the kitchen and lay off the soccer commentary.   You don't seem to like it and it clearly isn't your forte.

You are part of the problem with America.  I pray that your daughter doesn't get treated to way you hope that other people's daughters are treated.....


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## soccerobserver (Jun 12, 2019)

The view from Canada they were not impressed and didn’t spare words :


https://twitter.com/WoSo_Comps/status/1138573217927520261?s=20


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## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That kind of joke isn't funny.  We live in a country where many minority groups are marginalized.  Women although the actual majority are part of that marginalized group.  Something so silly as not wearing makeup and your commentary on it is disgusting.  My mom and my wife don't wear makeup regularly and both are extremely successful.  Why would it matter if a woman, let alone a powerful and successful one, wear makeup?
> 
> You need to stick to the kitchen and lay off the soccer commentary.   You don't seem to like it and it clearly isn't your forte.
> 
> You are part of the problem with America.  I pray that your daughter doesn't get treated to way you hope that other people's daughters are treated.....


He is establishing himself as the local fashion critic.  Doesn't have much else.


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## Messi>CR7 (Jun 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Some of the celebrations were excessive, particularly for players who have been there before.
> 
> Then again, Barry Sanders was one of my favorite players, and I tell my own children not to act like they just scored a goal in the World Cup, so I am neither objective in my view nor consistent in my analogies.


The celebrations were "lame"......................according to my unbiased 10-year-old kid.


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## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Can someone please tell rapinoe to put some make up on?


Makeup is for softball players.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Some of the celebrations were excessive, particularly for players who have been there before.
> 
> Then again, Barry Sanders was one of my favorite players, and I tell my own children not to act like they just scored a goal in the World Cup, so I am neither objective in my view nor consistent in my analogies.


Now I get it.  I knew that there was a reason that I liked you other than your on point commentary.  Barry Sanders played the game how it was meant to be played.  With passion AND professionalism.


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

It is pouring down rain at the Spain vs Germany game!


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## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Spain had a 1v1 with the keeper and missed.  This game is good...


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## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

Interesting moment (Germany - Spain) - referee did a one-sided drop ball, even signaling the opponent not to contest it.


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## outside! (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Karma is a bitch.


from https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/82628/whats-thailand-doing-playing-in-the-womens-world.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headline&utm_campaign=21611&hashid=D-PCIeyj-gYYng9nz-hxlAwt-j4,

"In the last decade, the Chaba Kaew have beaten Southeast Asian rivals by scores of 14-0 (Malaysia), 14-1 (Laos), 13-0 (Indonesia), 12-0 (Laos again) and 11-0 (Cambodia), the latter result coming less than a year ago."


----------



## timbuck (Jun 12, 2019)

espola said:


> Interesting moment (Germany - Spain) - referee did a one-sided drop ball, even signaling the opponent not to contest it.


Isn’t that the new law change?  No more contested drop balls.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

espola said:


> Interesting moment (Germany - Spain) - referee did a one-sided drop ball, even signaling the opponent not to contest it.


This is a damn good game between two very skilled teams.  It's hard to focus on work during this one.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 12, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Isn’t that the new law change?  No more contested drop balls.


Yup

https://www.soccerparenting.com/law-of-the-game-revisions/


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

The women's game is so much more physical than the men's game.  And the refs just let it happen.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> This is a damn good game between two very skilled teams.  It's hard to focus on work during this one.


I have alot of work to catch up on before the next game


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

France has swapped out two of the forwards.  Their attacking depth is impressive.  The two that they are including are studs (studettes?).


----------



## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Isn’t that the new law change?  No more contested drop balls.


What about the old "I didn't see who kicked it out" dropped ball?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

*US Women’s Soccer Player Ignored The National Anthem As An ‘F-You’ To Trump*
June 12th, 2019
_





Is this who we want representing our country?

Hell no.



U.S. women’s soccer star Megan Rapinoe ignored the national anthem before the Women’s World Cup game against Thailand on Tuesday.

Rapinoe, who is openly gay, had previously said she would never sing the national anthem again as an ‘f-you’ to President Donald Trump. She announced that she would “never put my hand over my heart” or sing the national anthem in an interview with Yahoo Newsin May.
_


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That kind of joke isn't funny.  We live in a country where many minority groups are marginalized.  Women although the actual majority are part of that marginalized group.  Something so silly as not wearing makeup and your commentary on it is disgusting.  My mom and my wife don't wear makeup regularly and both are extremely successful.  Why would it matter if a woman, let alone a powerful and successful one, wear makeup?
> 
> You need to stick to the kitchen and lay off the soccer commentary.   You don't seem to like it and it clearly isn't your forte.
> 
> You are part of the problem with America.  I pray that your daughter doesn't get treated to way you hope that other people's daughters are treated.....


Is the same MAP that offers to have sex with my wife?
Must be some sort of mistake, lighten up.


----------



## espola (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> _Is this who we want representing our country?_


Is t the one you want representing our country?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

espola said:


> Is t the one you want representing our country?


Please stay on topic, troll.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Is the same MAP that offers to have sex with my wife?
> Must be some sort of mistake, lighten up.


I don't think that my wife would want that and I PROMISE you that you don't.  I'd get half your shit and I don't have time for a side chick mine is a baller.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> *US Women’s Soccer Player Ignored The National Anthem As An ‘F-You’ To Trump*
> June 12th, 2019
> _
> 
> ...


I don't stand up for the national anthem and never had to during my playing days because the anthem is played when you are in the locker room.  It must be nice to be an ignorant white male and have no problem making it through life.

Again I hope that your daughter isn't judged as harshly as you judge.  Karma is a bitch and you are due.


----------



## Justafan (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> *US Women’s Soccer Player Ignored The National Anthem As An ‘F-You’ To Trump*
> June 12th, 2019
> _
> 
> ...


Instead of whining about it, take a stand, and protest by not watching. Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is, because she is.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Instead of whining about it, take a stand, and protest by not watching. Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is, because she is.


She?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I don't stand up for the national anthem and never had to during my playing days because the anthem is played when you are in the locker room.  It must be nice to be an ignorant white male and have no problem making it through life.
> 
> Again I hope that your daughter isn't judged as harshly as you judge.  Karma is a bitch and you are due.


Pissed off at the man is no way to go through life.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jun 12, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Instead of whining about it, take a stand, and protest by not watching. Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is, because she is.


Afraid she is not putting her money where her mouth is, under your protest standards.  She would have to similarly decline to be on the team, in protest of them making her stand.  She wants to play more than she wants to protest, at least in that manner.  

Though MAP may not like it, the same part of the constitution that prohibits the government from punishing someone for kneeling during the national anthem (it should be allowed on the national team), also allows a person, not matter their color or gender, to criticize that behavior with the same impunity.  Fortunately, free will gives us the ability to ignore both.


----------



## pulguita (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Now I get it.  I knew that there was a reason that I liked you other than your on point commentary.  Barry Sanders played the game how it was meant to be played.  With passion AND professionalism.


So did "Sweetness" Walter Payton.  God broke the mold when he left us.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 12, 2019)

pulguita said:


> So did "Sweetness" Walter Payton.  God broke the mold when he left us.


Im still pissed they gave the ball to the fridge in the super bowl instead of payton


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

Not a very positive role model for our youth.
Pathetic in fact.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Afraid she is not putting her money where her mouth is, under your protest standards.  She would have to similarly decline to be on the team, in protest of them making her stand.  She wants to play more than she wants to protest, at least in that manner.
> 
> Though MAP may not like it, the same part of the constitution that prohibits the government from punishing someone for kneeling during the national anthem (it should be allowed on the national team), also allows a person, not matter their color or gender, to criticize that behavior with the same impunity.  Fortunately, free will gives us the ability to ignore both.


There is a big difference between what is right and what is legal.  And what is legal depends upon what state or country you are in.  God doesn’t parse behavior that way.  It’s okay though because life finds a way to put people in their place.  Racist bigots like @Sheriff Joe always get what is coming to them.  It may take a while and it may come “unexpectedly” but it always comes and it is equal and opposite to the stuff that he puts out there.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 4878
> Not a very positive role model for our youth.
> Pathetic in fact.


You are clueless.  Enjoy your white privelage.  You clearly don’t have a moral compass.  Your day is coming and please remember that I told you so when it happens.  And please don’t try to talk your way out of it because that angers those delivering the comeuppance.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are clueless.  Enjoy your white privelage.  You clearly don’t have a moral compass.  Your day is coming and please remember that I told you so when it happens.  And please don’t try to talk your way out of it because that angers those delivering the comeuppance.


White privilege? You can put that fake racism into any argument, just means you lose, loser.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 4878
> Not a very positive role model for our youth.
> Pathetic in fact.


This is actually illogical, she has the honor of representing her country but she chooses not to honor her country?  Not sure why she chooses to disrespect our freedoms and all those that worked to enforce our freedoms because she doesn’t like who the president is - presidents will come and go - some are great and some are horrible but our country is much more than that - her point doesn’t translate well


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jun 12, 2019)

You people make me laugh.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 12, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> The view from Canada they were not impressed and didn’t spare words :
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/WoSo_Comps/status/1138573217927520261?s=20


those damn Canadians, who do they think they are!!??  I still don't have a problem with the celebrations.  Would I have done it?  No.  Would I scold my kids for doing so.  Absolutely.  Most youth games I see, the parents and kids stop celebrating goals after the GD gets to 5 or 6.  But, this is the WC and these women are under tremendous pressure to perform as a team and individually.  Not like any of them are going back to Computer Science jobs after these games (unlike the Norway goalie, btw).

Rapinoe has a BIG personality, and is clueless sometimes with her off-the-field judgment (she does not have a reliable filter).  It's part of the reason she is not as marketable as other players.  Morgan should know better and her sponsors will likely give her a little "advice".

As for the games, Norway did not disappoint.  Their midfield is fantastic and broke the French press many times.  To think they have the best player in the World -- a striker nonetheless -- sitting at home is both unfortunate and a big relief to every other country side.

Speaking of strikers, Spain needs one and until they find one, are not a threat to the U.S., France, Canada, or any other top team.

MAP's Netherlands are a fun team to watch...Martens was her usual tricky self, Miedema is always dangerous but something is missing there.  Haven't quite put my finger on it.  The winger with the "cheetah" hairstyle didn't show up vs. NZ---maybe kharma for trying to be too individualistic or too focused on her look?

I don't see a side without a strong 9 beating the U.S.  That leaves France (50% chance), Netherlands (20% chance), Australia (20% chance), Canada (10% chance), and Brazil (3% chance).


----------



## jojosoccer (Jun 12, 2019)

US looked really good against an unchallenging team. 
After pool play, it wil not be a cake walk.


----------



## push_up (Jun 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I don't think that my wife would want that.....


Which wife?


----------



## Supermodel56 (Jun 13, 2019)

How’s this for another reason the excessive celebrations were classless? Again, this is not a debate about the score... per NYTime:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/07/sports/soccer/world-cup-survey.html

“Below are approximate earnings figures provided by individual players and converted to United States dollars.”

$0 Jamaica
$159 Thailand
$225 Jamaica
$400 Jamaica
$476 Thailand
$800 Jamaica
$1,600 Nigeria
$2,106 South Africa
$2,340 Nigeria
$2,808 South Africa
$3,131 Argentina
$3,172 Thailand
$3,172 Thailand
$3,173 Thailand
$3,500 South Africa
$3,510 South Africa
$5,077 Thailand
$6,345 Thailand
$6,345 Thailand
$7,000 Jamaica
$7,019 South Africa
$7,281 Chile
$7,500 Brazil
$8,500 South Korea
$10,000 South Korea
$10,000 Jamaica
$10,000 South Africa
$10,528 South Africa
$13,150 New Zealand
$13,888 Nigeria
$13,888 Nigeria
$15,000 Jamaica
$15,653 Chile
$18,000 New Zealand
$21,225 France
$25,000 South Africa
$25,000 South Africa
$27,778 Nigeria
$28,000 Norway
$30,000 South Africa
$30,000 New Zealand
$30,000 Brazil
$32,000 France
$33,411 Brazil
$40,000 Nigeria
$50,000 South Korea
$50,000 Nigeria
$50,000 France
$60,000 New Zealand
$89,641 Nigeria
$167,500 United States
$350,000 United States


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 15, 2019)

oh canada said:


> those damn Canadians, who do they think they are!!??  I still don't have a problem with the celebrations.  Would I have done it?  No.  Would I scold my kids for doing so.  Absolutely.  Most youth games I see, the parents and kids stop celebrating goals after the GD gets to 5 or 6.  But, this is the WC and these women are under tremendous pressure to perform as a team and individually.  Not like any of them are going back to Computer Science jobs after these games (unlike the Norway goalie, btw).
> 
> Rapinoe has a BIG personality, and is clueless sometimes with her off-the-field judgment (she does not have a reliable filter).  It's part of the reason she is not as marketable as other players.  Morgan should know better and her sponsors will likely give her a little "advice".
> 
> ...


The Canada vs Netherlands game is going to be one of the best games of pool play.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 15, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> The Canada vs Netherlands game is going to be one of the best games of pool play.


Just finished watching the game vs. NZ on DVR.  So happy for Flem.  Great goal.  And the second goal keeps the GD even with the Dutch at 2.  Hate to say it, but Sinclair may be showing her age.  I know they're trying to get her the goal record but after they went up 1-0 I think they should have put her on ice and brought in Huitema.  

USA v Sweden will be good, but agree the Neth/Canada battle for the #1 seed will be epic.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 16, 2019)

Good luck to the USA this morning.

Where is rapinoe?


----------



## Small but Slow (Jun 16, 2019)

Morgan Brian should not even be on the field today! Looks slowww and Lazy. Really liked that new Player Rose. Why not player her in that role instead (love the way that girl plays). Brian has no heart.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 16, 2019)

post game grades...USA v Chile:

Press - B+.   did well dribbling but some errant passes and didn't score.  Still a solid game for her.

Lloyd - B.   2 good goals but points off for completely missing the target on her PK.  Good game and supported her case for starting in the 9 instead of Morgan, but Nike will never let that happen.

Pugh - F.  Errant passes, lost the ball dribbling, bumped off the ball and roughed up by a small Chile side.  Didn't create any legit chances for herself or teammates.  Further proof that her speed got her where she is and she's too small and lacks skill for better, more physical opponents.  Exhibit A for staying in college 4 years before going pro.

Horan - C.  She did fine, but not really tested much in midfield from a Chile side that barely pushed forward.

Ertz - B.  Great header goal.  Errant passes against a below average side prove that she's on the team for her strength and power, not her skill (except heading the ball which is a skill).

Brian - F.  Too many turnovers, slow, no creativity.  She hasn't been the same since her injury.  Shouldn't be on the team.  Jill didn't want to make the tough cut.  Should have.

Defense. C.  Not really tested so not enough to evaluate.  Some decent balls over the top but also some off the target.  Krieger does fine against a team like Chile, but when no pressure it's easy to play.  I'll be surprised if she gets any PT from here forward. 

Goalie - Chile goalie gets an A, USA goalie muffed an early free kick but saved by offside call.  She needs to calm down.  Too aggressive at times.  Not enough action to get a grade.

Good on Jill for getting all of her players PT.  But it's obvious why a few of these players do not start.


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2019)

oh canada said:


> post game grades...USA v Chile:
> 
> Press - B+.   did well dribbling but some errant passes and didn't score.  Still a solid game for her.
> 
> ...


Who was it that put the ball on the right post late in the game?  I thought it was Pugh at the time but I don't remember why.   They only did a short replay once.


----------



## CrazyTown (Jun 16, 2019)

espola said:


> Who was it that put the ball on the right post late in the game?  I thought it was Pugh at the time but I don't remember why.   They only did a short replay once.


McDonald


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 16, 2019)

I was happy to see McDonald get some playing time. Great story and great person. My daughter was able to jump in a training with her once and she was super nice. Got a love a player who started out at Community college and now is on a national team roster


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> I was happy to see McDonald get some playing time. Great story and great person. My daughter was able to jump in a training with her once and she was super nice. Got a love a player who started out at Community college and now is on a national team roster


McDonald looks like a cut up stud.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 17, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Just finished watching the game vs. NZ on DVR.  So happy for Flem.  Great goal.  And the second goal keeps the GD even with the Dutch at 2.  Hate to say it, but Sinclair may be showing her age.  I know they're trying to get her the goal record but after they went up 1-0 I think they should have put her on ice and brought in Huitema.
> 
> USA v Sweden will be good, but agree the Neth/Canada battle for the #1 seed will be epic.


I liked Jayde Rivere and the word is that she is the next thing not Huitema (she didn't even get in the game and Rivere who will be a freshman at Michigan this fall played a great all around game statistically).  Rivere looked very comfortable in that game not unlike a young Fleming.  I also want to mention how well Desiree Scott played.  She does so much of the dirty work for Canada and really allows them to connect well.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 17, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> I was happy to see McDonald get some playing time. Great story and great person. My daughter was able to jump in a training with her once and she was super nice. Got a love a player who started out at Community college and now is on a national team roster



She should play a lot more based upon objective measurements like professional performance in the NWSL, however, she doesn't fit what SUM wants.  She is the only player on the team who is a mom.  Can't have that either.  That would show that women can have it all and that message would absolutely suck apparently...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 17, 2019)

oh canada said:


> post game grades...USA v Chile:
> 
> Press - B+.   did well dribbling but some errant passes and didn't score.  Still a solid game for her.
> 
> ...


I am glad that she played all of the field players.  Several showed why they shouldn't be on the team.  I guess that Nike and Hulu get some say in things.  I think that we uncovered a few key truths and hopefully we have a good run of form going forward because all of them are going to be tough here on out.


----------



## Small but Slow (Jun 17, 2019)

Time to sit the scrubs.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 17, 2019)

I love the studio analysis by the women from the different countries and HAO.


----------



## Real Deal (Jun 17, 2019)

Refs and VAR giving lots of gifts today.  Minimal contact and big flops=pks apparently.  And then how can a keeper with one foot coming inches off a line matter and cause a repeat pk when a player has missed the frame altogether??  

Go USA!!  At least we can score real goals.

PS-  If the rules for keepers on pks are going to be enforced this harshly going forward, then I believe the kickers need to be moved further back!  Can you imagine how this will work on the men's side?  May as well just award the goal.


----------



## espola (Jun 17, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> Refs and VAR giving lots of gifts today.  Minimal contact and big flops=pks apparently.  And then how can a keeper with one foot coming inches off a line matter and cause a repeat pk when a player has missed the frame altogether??
> 
> Go USA!!  At least we can score real goals.
> 
> PS-  If the rules for keepers on pks are going to be enforced this harshly going forward, then I believe the kickers need to be moved further back!  Can you imagine how this will work on the men's side?  May as well just award the goal.


Shooters still miss the goal completely or hit the keeper.


----------



## Real Deal (Jun 17, 2019)

espola said:


> Shooters still miss the goal completely or hit the keeper.


Yeh but it's a lot easier if they are gifted a second chance by the VAR.

Honestly if the movement by the keeper on a pk is so minimal that the field ref misses it, how can it be relevant or reviewable on a pk where the shooter misses the frame altogether?


----------



## espola (Jun 17, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> Yeh but it's a lot easier if they are gifted a second chance by the VAR.
> 
> Honestly if the movement by the keeper on a pk is so minimal that the field ref misses it, how can it be relevant or reviewable on a pk where the shooter misses the frame altogether?


The shooter could argue that the keeper distracted her.  The rekick is already in the LOTG, it's just that now VAR will eliminate early rushes by the keeper.


----------



## Real Deal (Jun 17, 2019)

Did you see the play I am referring to? (France vs Nigeria) It was hardly an "early rush."  

I think VAR is necessary in some instances, but it may already be becoming too powerful in determining outcomes.  That doesn't add much to the game . Maybe some of the rules need to be re-thought if they are to be adhered to with no discretion.  It comes off as wacky and unfair.


----------



## Small but Slow (Jun 17, 2019)

Unlucky sequence of events in France/Nigeria natxh for sure. However, Nigeria did not help themselves after the PK retake. The urgency afterward hardly existed at all. Check out the right back during the cross in the 86th minute (#20). Not a good teamate, and flat out quit on the play. She later dropped to the turf without any contact, and came out out of the gamcde. What a disgrace


----------



## espola (Jun 17, 2019)

Small but Slow said:


> Unlucky sequence of events in France/Nigeria natxh for sure. However, Nigeria did not help themselves after the PK retake. The urgency afterward hardly existed at all. Check out the right back during the cross in the 86th minute (#20). Not a good teamate, and flat out quit on the play. She later dropped to the turf without any contact, and came out out of the gamcde. What a disgrace


"...came out out of the gamcde..."?


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 17, 2019)

Watched the game and France looked to have the better of the game.  The other thing in the France/Nigeria penalty sequence is on both PK’s French players had encroached into the box prior to the ball being struck.  There are quite a few images of this floating around online.  My understanding is that could have been called as well(could be wrong), especially if we are talking about a keeper being a couple inches off the line.  Just seems a bit inconsistent...maybe a ref can weigh in???


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 18, 2019)

Woobie06 said:


> Watched the game and France looked to have the better of the game.  The other thing in the France/Nigeria penalty sequence is on both PK’s French players had encroached into the box prior to the ball being struck.  There are quite a few images of this floating around online.  My understanding is that could have been called as well(could be wrong), especially if we are talking about a keeper being a couple inches off the line.  Just seems a bit inconsistent...maybe a ref can weigh in???


The way's it has been explained to me is that under the VAR protocol appendix to the Laws of the Game, an offense by the striker or the goalkeeper is reviewable in VAR, but an encroachment offense is not unless the player becomes directly involved such as in a rebound.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 18, 2019)

Discussion below.  My guess is between this and the handballs/people running with hands behind their back the penalty rules (not the VAR rules) get revised next go around:


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 18, 2019)

Italy vs Brazil should be a fun one to watch!  Lunchtime soccer is the best!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 18, 2019)

Brazil up 1-0 at about 75 min in...if Brazil and the Matilda's win then we have a 3-way tie in  Group C...


----------



## Real Deal (Jun 18, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Brazil up 1-0 with about 75 minutes to go...if Brazil and the Matilda's win then we have a 3-way tie in  Group C...


So far the difference is, once again, a kind of questionable pk.  (Happy for Marta though.)

I think US chances are high.


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> So far the difference is, once again, a kind of questionable pk.  (Happy for Marta though.)
> 
> I think US chances are high.


Worst PK call of the tournament so far.  She ran into the back of a defender and flopped.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 18, 2019)

espola said:


> Worst PK call of the tournament so far.  She ran into the back of a defender and flopped.


To my eyes it looked like the correct call. I haven't seen a replay. I thought the defender slammed into the attacker from the side angle.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 18, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> So far the difference is, once again, a kind of questionable pk.  (Happy for Marta though.)
> 
> I think US chances are high.


RD it definitely feels like too many games are being decided by PK's off of fouls...but this one looked legit to me...


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> To my eyes it looked like the correct call. I haven't seen a replay. I thought the defender slammed into the attacker from the side angle.


Different angle - The defender was slower, but she was closer to the ball.  Attacker tried to run through and then bounced off her back.

I even yelled at my wife.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 18, 2019)

The referee explaining to the Italian goalkeeper the new rules before the kick and warning the other players not to run in early was hilarious.  It's gonna end with them adjusting the PK rules...the outcry at having games decided by PKs because a pass could strike a hand in the box which isn't shot on goal (in a low scoring sport) is just going to be too much and they don't want to look stupid by admitting they made a mistake with the handball rules.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 18, 2019)

Painful performance from the Jamaican goalkeeper....what happened to the other one?


----------



## gkrent (Jun 18, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> To my eyes it looked like the correct call. I haven't seen a replay. I thought the defender slammed into the attacker from the side angle.


I missed the action that resulted in the Penalty....and can't find a clip of it online.  Sounds like it was a shoulder to shoulder contact and the attacking player went down?


----------



## watfly (Jun 18, 2019)

gkrent said:


> I missed the action that resulted in the Penalty....and can't find a clip of it online.  Sounds like it was a shoulder to shoulder contact and the attacking player went down?







About at the 1:10 mark


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 18, 2019)

gkrent said:


> I missed the action that resulted in the Penalty....and can't find a clip of it online.  Sounds like it was a shoulder to shoulder contact and the attacking player went down?


GKR, to me it looked like the defender intercepted the attacker and took her out w/out playing the ball...isn't that a PK??

Also, for what it's worth Italy had an early goal called back...I thought the teams were evenly matched...

Here is the replay from YouTube...


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2019)

gkrent said:


> I missed the action that resulted in the Penalty....and can't find a clip of it online.  Sounds like it was a shoulder to shoulder contact and the attacking player went down?


I think they showed reruns while the VAR decision was being made, but not after.  L

I like the philosophy that every player has the right to be on the field as long as they are fairly playing for the ball.  That's why bigger or faster players can't just run through the slower ones.  

Hey, I like a 13-goal game myself, but we got to let them play defense.  I am afraid we might become ruled by a layer of VAR operators who are really good at stop-action control and measuring angles but don't know how the game is played.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 18, 2019)

espola said:


> Different angle - The defender was slower, but she was closer to the ball.  Attacker tried to run through and then bounced off her back.
> 
> I even yelled at my wife.


And I guess that can't go to VAR because they stopped the play on it?  I agree with espola...no foul.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 18, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> The Canada vs Netherlands game is going to be one of the best games of pool play.


Canada should continue to go through Beckie on the wing - her speed and skill should pose all sorts of problems for the slower Dutch backline.  And this game will be a great test for Canada's backline and good prep for elimination round.  The 'Leafs haven't  given up a goal in 400+ minutes but the Dutch front 3 are the best in the World as we've said.  

I'd like to see Canada test their fitness and high press the Dutch for at least 75 minutes.  That's the ticket to beating the U.S. or France, if they get there.  Not tremendous downside if it blows up and you lose this game.  Both 1 and 2 seeds from this group get a tough elimination round matchup (likely Sweden if 2 or England/Japen if 1).  Then at least you know whether high press for most of the game is a viable option. 

Look for a lot of orange in the stands, Netherlands only a 250 mile drive from the stadium site and the entire country is already on "holiday" for the summer   A lot of pre-game tailgating with Heineken for sure.


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2019)

I liked the foot-flicking shots by the Brazilians.  I have seen too much lately of trying to shoot a hole in the keeper where a chip or corner shot has a better chance.


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2019)

After watching the womens game for several days, I turned on a CONCACAF Gold game for a while.  Those guys are clumsy brutes (or is that just because they are from CONCACAF?).


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2019)

espola said:


> After watching the womens game for several days, I turned on a CONCACAF Gold game for a while.  Those guys are clumsy brutes (or is that just because they are from CONCACAF?).


The USA men, on the other hand, looked slick and well-coached.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Canada should continue to go through Beckie on the wing - her speed and skill should pose all sorts of problems for the slower Dutch backline.  And this game will be a great test for Canada's backline and good prep for elimination round.  The 'Leafs haven't  given up a goal in 400+ minutes but the Dutch front 3 are the best in the World as we've said.
> 
> I'd like to see Canada test their fitness and high press the Dutch for at least 75 minutes.  That's the ticket to beating the U.S. or France, if they get there.  Not tremendous downside if it blows up and you lose this game.  Both 1 and 2 seeds from this group get a tough elimination round matchup (likely Sweden if 2 or England/Japen if 1).  Then at least you know whether high press for most of the game is a viable option.
> 
> Look for a lot of orange in the stands, Netherlands only a 250 mile drive from the stadium site and the entire country is already on "holiday" for the summer   A lot of pre-game tailgating with Heineken for sure.


This game is definitely going to get both teams ready for the elimination rounds and either of the 3 opponents is a tough out.  I do like that Canada has a speed advantage over the Dutch but as the Japanese have proven for years great technique and team play can overcome a team that has superior athletic ability.  Canada has a great mix of it all and they play great team soccer so I think that they are only a 55/45 underdog and a draw is very likely.  I'm always cheering for a certain midfielder on that team and I like how she matches up with Holland.

As I said this is going to be a good one.


----------



## Dubs (Jun 19, 2019)

Japan/England today going to be a great match...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 19, 2019)

I


oh canada said:


> Canada should continue to go through Beckie on the wing - her speed and skill should pose all sorts of problems for the slower Dutch backline.  And this game will be a great test for Canada's backline and good prep for elimination round.  The 'Leafs haven't  given up a goal in 400+ minutes but the Dutch front 3 are the best in the World as we've said.
> 
> I'd like to see Canada test their fitness and high press the Dutch for at least 75 minutes.  That's the ticket to beating the U.S. or France, if they get there.  Not tremendous downside if it blows up and you lose this game.  Both 1 and 2 seeds from this group get a tough elimination round matchup (likely Sweden if 2 or England/Japen if 1).  Then at least you know whether high press for most of the game is a viable option.
> 
> Look for a lot of orange in the stands, Netherlands only a 250 mile drive from the stadium site and the entire country is already on "holiday" for the summer   A lot of pre-game tailgating with Heineken for sure.


I'll be wearing my Oranje jersey tomorrow.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 19, 2019)

I don't know which side will win but Japan is putting on a clinic in clever passing and possession...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 19, 2019)

And just like that England up 1-0...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> And just like that England up 1-0...


They are dominating possession.


----------



## Justafan (Jun 19, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I don't know which side will win but Japan is putting on a clinic in clever passing and possession...


What game are you watching, complete domination by England, including possession.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 19, 2019)

Justafan said:


> What game are you watching, complete domination by England, including possession.


Yes true now...Japan fell off the possession cart after the first 15 minutes and the first goal...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2019)

I just turned on the Scotland vs Argentina game and Scotland went from being up 3-0 to being tied with Argentina 3-3.  I have got to watch the replay.  That eliminates both teams.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2019)

I guess Argentina can advance if the other two games end in a tie.  Nigeria is likely in.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 19, 2019)

Another one?....again?!?!?!?!?


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 19, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> Another one?....again?!?!?!?!?



I gotta say this last one is the most ridiculous of all.  I had to watch the freeze frame like 3 times to see she was off the line.  Under the new rules she's allowed to step forward so long as her back leg is still on.  Come on now!!!!


----------



## electrichead72 (Jun 19, 2019)

They're really splitting hairs here.


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jun 19, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I just turned on the Scotland vs Argentina game and Scotland went from being up 3-0 to being tied with Argentina 3-3.  I have got to watch the replay.  That eliminates both teams.


Are any of these games replayed on another network, at night?


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2019)

Kicknit22 said:


> Are any of these games replayed on another network, at night?


I have seen some of the US Women late at night on FS1 and FS2.


----------



## Real Deal (Jun 19, 2019)

They are also on Hulu if you have it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

Kicknit22 said:


> Are any of these games replayed on another network, at night?


If you have the Fox Sports app you can watch on your phone, tablet, computer or internet TV or you can chromecast it.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

Huitema with the start.  Let's see if she can have an impact with Sinclair.  I like it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Huitema with the start.  Let's see if she can have an impact with Sinclair.  I like it.


Pretty gutsy.  Although getting second might be better than getting first in this group.


----------



## 3thatplay (Jun 20, 2019)

Glad VAR fixed the call in Canada Nederlands game.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

halftime:  Round 1 to the Dutch.  Canada hanging on.  Just need to play through the midfield.  Every goal kick is a turnover.  Feel like I'm watching the old Hope Solo days on goal kicks.  Huitema doing fine, causing some issues.  Schmidt needs to be better in midfield, a couple really bad balls that resulted in turnovers.  Canada can play through the middle, they just need to trust it.  And if they mess up while doing so, so be it.  Buchanan and Lawrence playing great.  Buchanan on a yellow now though.

Incredible bicycle kick attempt by Dutch #10.  Might be the best possession soccer in the world.  France a close second.  Spain 3rd, USA 4th.

Game of the group round so far, as expected.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> halftime:  Round 1 to the Dutch.  Canada hanging on.  Just need to play through the midfield.  Every goal kick is a turnover.  Feel like I'm watching the old Hope Solo days on goal kicks.  Huitema doing fine, causing some issues.  Schmidt needs to be better in midfield, a couple really bad balls that resulted in turnovers.  Canada can play through the middle, they just need to trust it.  And if they mess up while doing so, so be it.  Buchanan and Lawrence playing great.  Buchanan on a yellow now though.
> 
> Incredible bicycle kick attempt by Dutch #10.  Might be the best possession soccer in the world.  France a close second.  Spain 3rd, USA 4th.
> 
> Game of the group round so far, as expected.


You could see that goal coming.  Buchanan got beat.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 20, 2019)

Uh oh...that was well executed...


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2019)

Canada Sinclair goal - great demo video for all those youth team practices timing to put the ball in front of a teammate's rush to the far post.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2019)

espola said:


> Canada Sinclair goal - great demo video for all those youth team practices timing to put the ball in front of a teammate's rush to the far post.


Ditto Nederland goal.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

espola said:


> Ditto Nederland goal.


Buchanan has got to stay goal side of her players...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

Good game.  Cameroon goes through on a 95th minute goal!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

New Zealand has to consider this World Cup a complete failure.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> New Zealand has to consider this World Cup a complete failure.


They opted to stay in Oceana when Australia moved to Asia Confederation, so they have a semi-automatic entry into WC.  We will see more of them.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 20, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Good game.  Cameroon goes through on a 95th minute goal!


That goal was every strikers' dream come true !!!


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

I give second half to Canada despite the score.  Agree MAP, Buchanan out of position but i put the second goal more on the goalie then her.  Goalie had a couple nervy moments.  But they played more thru midfield second half and with ball on the ground.  Good.  A few good half-chances by Canada in second half.  Other than the goal, Dutch didn't have as many scoring chances in second half.

MAP - what's your take on Fleming?  I felt like she seemed outsized in this game---a little small--pushed around a bit.  The Dutch are big I know, but hmmm, do you ever get that feeling on the UCLA pitch with Fleming?  A couple inches and 10 lbs could do her some good.  She's still young.

Might see more of Huitema after a solid performance.  Dutch will handle Japan with ease.  Hopefully, Canucks get Sweden.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

Sweden really has nothing to lose in this game.  So go out and high press the USA and make them earn their goals.  That will be better prep for the US too.  If Sweden parks the bus, the game will be a snoozefest.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

4 Sweden starters sitting on the bench.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2019)

That was quick!


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> That was quick!


On pace for 15.  Put Morgan back on top of golden boot race!


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

Sweden goalie is weak;  They are exposing US's vulnerabilities.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Sweden goalie is weak;  They are exposing US's vulnerabilities.


OC that was an exciting first half...what vulnerabilities are you seeing? Looked like the US was in command to me...Sweden's left winger was MIA on the Swedish cross at the end...


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

Sub in Press for Rapinoe.  And, put in MacDonald for Morgan.  Everyone else playing well.  But just like every other country, you can see USA is susceptible to a lot of turnovers with the high press.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> OC that was an exciting first half...what vulnerabilities are you seeing? Looked like the US was in command to me...Sweden's left winger was MIA on the Swedish cross at the end...


When playing a team that can attack and with some players who have skill, US defense gives up scoring opportunities.  Defense gets too narrow.  Sweden left wing is MIA because the right wing is getting through.  Also, when a team highpresses, US shows many of their players have inconsistent first touch and passing accuracy (all the teams do, just pointing out that US not any better than others in that regard).

Remember, it's 1-0, but their goal came on a set piece.  I want to see them put together a nice combo goal like Netherlands and Canada did in the prior game.


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 20, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> OC that was an exciting first half...what vulnerabilities are you seeing? Looked like the US was in command to me...Sweden's left winger was MIA on the Swedish cross at the end...


Dunn has been caught out of position a couple of times, once badly that could have easily led to the equalizer. Each time Sweden has looked dangerous it has come from that side.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> When playing a team that can attack and with some players who have skill, US defense gives up scoring opportunities.  Defense gets too narrow.  Sweden left wing is MIA because the right wing is getting through.  Also, when a team highpresses, US shows many of their players have inconsistent first touch and passing accuracy (all the teams do, just pointing out that US not any better than others in that regard).
> 
> Remember, it's 1-0, but their goal came on a set piece.  I want to see them put together a nice combo goal like Netherlands and Canada did in the prior game.


Rapinoe seemed like she was getting stranded on the left side w no one to pass to...no good angles...at least that's how I remember it...in the past I recall Rapinoe and Press making the kind of combination passes you are referring to...


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2019)

Heath goal and the long review of possible offside will go into referee training videos this year.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 20, 2019)

espola said:


> Heath goal and the long review of possible offside will go into referee training videos this year.


Somehow they are re-classifying Heath's goal as an own goal now...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

I'm happy with the result.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> I give second half to Canada despite the score.  Agree MAP, Buchanan out of position but i put the second goal more on the goalie then her.  Goalie had a couple nervy moments.  But they played more thru midfield second half and with ball on the ground.  Good.  A few good half-chances by Canada in second half.  Other than the goal, Dutch didn't have as many scoring chances in second half.
> 
> MAP - what's your take on Fleming?  I felt like she seemed outsized in this game---a little small--pushed around a bit.  The Dutch are big I know, but hmmm, do you ever get that feeling on the UCLA pitch with Fleming?  A couple inches and 10 lbs could do her some good.  She's still young.
> 
> Might see more of Huitema after a solid performance.  Dutch will handle Japan with ease.  Hopefully, Canucks get Sweden.


It was a pretty even game but the Dutch front line gave the Canadian defense a ton of problems.  Lawrence played great but I thought that Scott and Buchanan had rough games.  The way to get to Fleming is to beat her up.  I thought that she had moments but the Swedish got very physical with her.  She won't grow any taller but with some weights she could carry another 10 pounds.  I personally would take her as is in the US midfield.

Huitema has a good run onto ball game but other than her cross that Sinclair put away with an amazing effort and a serious defensive error, she really didn't combine with anyone.  She needs some texture to her game.  I like Riviere better.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 20, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Rapinoe seemed like she was getting stranded on the left side w no one to pass to...no good angles...at least that's how I remember it...in the past I recall Rapinoe and Press making the kind of combination passes you are referring to...


Other than the corner kick, Rapinoe did nothing this game.  She can be a selfish player.  If she's on, then her selfishness gets a pass.  But when she's off, it's a glaring liability.  Her dribbling, passing and shots were all weak today.  Glad to see Jill took her out, but shoulda been at half time like they did with Morgan (as I predicted  ).  Wish Jill chose MacDonald instead of Lloyd though as her speed would have stretched the Sweden backline more. 

It would take A LOT of courage from Jill, but I'd like to see Lloyd get the start instead of Morgan vs. Spain.  Very unlikely due to outside pressures, but look for a quick hook on Morgan if she's ineffective in the first half.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Other than the corner kick, Rapinoe did nothing this game.  She can be a selfish player.  If she's on, then her selfishness gets a pass.  But when she's off, it's a glaring liability.  Her dribbling, passing and shots were all weak today.  Glad to see Jill took her out, but shoulda been at half time like they did with Morgan (as I predicted  ).  Wish Jill chose MacDonald instead of Lloyd though as her speed would have stretched the Sweden backline more.
> 
> It would take A LOT of courage from Jill, but I'd like to see Lloyd get the start instead of Morgan vs. Spain.  Very unlikely due to outside pressures, but look for a quick hook on Morgan if she's ineffective in the first half.


Lloyd is a much better player but she doesn't have the wheels that Jill likes.  I honestly think Jessica McDonald is a better fit than Morgan or Rapinoe but unfortunately she doesn't "look" the part nor does she "check the boxes" that Jill likes....


----------



## Glen (Jun 20, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Lloyd is a much better player but she doesn't have the wheels that Jill likes.  I honestly think Jessica McDonald is a better fit than Morgan or Rapinoe but unfortunately she doesn't "look" the part nor does she "check the boxes" that Jill likes....


At least McDonald is on the team.  Somehow, the best goalie in the WC was born, raised, and went to college in So Cal, but plays for England.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2019)

espola said:


> On pace for 15.  Put Morgan back on top of golden boot race!


Morgan seemed a bit off today. Maybe Coach Ellis should have given her some minutes against Chile to keep her sharp. Big difference between playing Sweden and Thailand.


----------



## NickName (Jun 20, 2019)

Gah.  Been stuck in Mexico all week.  While it’s nice to have so many games on (Copa America and Gold Cup), I haven’t been able to see a single women’s World Cup game since arriving


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 20, 2019)

Glen said:


> At least McDonald is on the team.  Somehow, the best goalie in the WC was born, raised, and went to college in So Cal, but plays for England.


In all fairness her parents are English.  Heck Janine Beckie for Canada is an American citizen as are multiple players for multiple teams.  If the US team had cast a bigger net and stopped anointing players as the next thing before they have proved it then she would likely be our keeper. 

I'm just sayin....


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 21, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Morgan seemed a bit off today. Maybe Coach Ellis should have given her some minutes against Chile to keep her sharp. Big difference between playing Sweden and Thailand.


She was the lowest rated player in the game from either team that played at least 30 minutes.  She is overrated.  She gets most of her goals against cupcakes.  How many goals has she scored against top 5-7 teams?  Now Carly Lloyd is a whole different story.  She scores when it matters against whomever she is up against...


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> She was the lowest rated player in the game from either team that played at least 30 minutes.  She is overrated.  She gets most of her goals against cupcakes.  How many goals has she scored against top 5-7 teams?  Now Carly Lloyd is a whole different story.  She scores when it matters against whomever she is up against...


But she's attractive, looks great on posters that have a swoosh logo on them and her jerseys sell like hot cakes. C'mon, let's keep our priorities straight shall we?


----------



## Glen (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> She was the lowest rated player in the game from either team that played at least 30 minutes.  She is overrated.  She gets most of her goals against cupcakes.  How many goals has she scored against top 5-7 teams?  Now Carly Lloyd is a whole different story.  She scores when it matters against whomever she is up against...


I don't know about that.  Morgan was clutch in the 2011 World Cup.  Goal in the semis and goal and assist in the final.  She was Malory Pugh's age.  She was clutch again at the 2012 Olympics.  Winning goal in the semis (extra time) and an assist in the finals.  She was coming off a knee injury in the 2015 World Cup.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 21, 2019)

The IFAB has given FIFA dispensation from carding goalkeepers for line violations during the WWC.  This mitigates the possibility that during a penalty shoot out a goalkeeper will be sent off and a field player having to replace the keeper.  But it still means effectively they'll be using VAR to review keepers for coming off the line and then punishing them by having the kick retaken.  The Goalkeepers Union has cheekily been saying you may as well just pull the keepers from the goal or just have them sit in a chair (Scott Sterling style).

The Premier League meanwhile is saying they won't use VAR to enforce PK infractions next season, the IFAB be damned.


----------



## watfly (Jun 21, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> The IFAB has given FIFA dispensation from carding goalkeepers for line violations during the WWC.  This mitigates the possibility that during a penalty shoot out a goalkeeper will be sent off and a field player having to replace the keeper.  But it still means effectively they'll be using VAR to review keepers for coming off the line and then punishing them by having the kick retaken.  The Goalkeepers Union has cheekily been saying you may as well just pull the keepers from the goal or just have them sit in a chair (Scott Sterling style).
> 
> The Premier League meanwhile is saying they won't use VAR to enforce PK infractions next season, the IFAB be damned.


Smart move.  It would have been a huge issue when you got to KFTM in the knockout rounds.  There wouldn't have been a keeper that made it through 5 kicks without getting sent off with two yellows.  Or in the alternative the kicks would have lasted 20 rounds until a kicker missed a shot on their own accord as the keepers stayed firmly planted to avoid being cautioned.  Very poorly thought out law particularly when combined with the fact that it was subject to a "black or white" VAR review.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Somehow they are re-classifying Heath's goal as an own goal now...


Deflection off of the defenders leg.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Lloyd is a much better player but she doesn't have the wheels that Jill likes.  I honestly think Jessica McDonald is a better fit than Morgan or Rapinoe but unfortunately she doesn't "look" the part nor does she "check the boxes" that Jill likes....


What are you trying to say MAP?
See looks like a nice young lady to me.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 21, 2019)

Glen said:


> I don't know about that.  Morgan was clutch in the 2011 World Cup.  Goal in the semis and goal and assist in the final.  She was Malory Pugh's age.  She was clutch again at the 2012 Olympics.  Winning goal in the semis (extra time) and an assist in the finals.  She was coming off a knee injury in the 2015 World Cup.


Those are nice anecdotes but here are the facts:

She has played 8 years in the NWSL and Europe and scored 45 goals for a grand total of 5.6 per season. 
She has been in the playoffs 3 times and scored zero goals.
Out of 106 international goals in 10 years she has scored 27 goals against Japan, France, Australia, Germany, England, Norway and North Korea (25%).  She has however scored 35 goals against CONCACAAF teams and 7 against Thailand (41%).


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 21, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 4926
> What are you trying to say MAP?
> See looks like a nice young lady to me.


I hear she is a very nice woman and a great mother.  She also is 6 foot tall with wheels, is a great back to the goal player and is great in the air.  She even played at the right school (North Carolina).


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> She was the lowest rated player in the game from either team that played at least 30 minutes.  She is overrated.  She gets most of her goals against cupcakes.  How many goals has she scored against top 5-7 teams?  Now Carly Lloyd is a whole different story.  She scores when it matters against whomever she is up against...


While I would not go so far as to call her overrated your analysis of her is pretty spot on. She can do a lot for her legacy by finding the back of the net during the knockout stage.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I hear she is a very nice woman and a great mother.  She also is 6 foot tall with wheels, is a great back to the goal player and is great in the air.  She even played at the right school (North Carolina).


She trains sometimes with my daughters coach in the off season. when one of my daughters teammates tore her ACL McDonald went to her house and talked to her about her injuries and how she made it back. McDonald is definitely a world class person and player


----------



## Glen (Jun 21, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Those are nice anecdotes but here are the facts:
> 
> She has played 8 years in the NWSL and Europe and scored 45 goals for a grand total of 5.6 per season.
> She has been in the playoffs 3 times and scored zero goals.
> Out of 106 international goals in 10 years she has scored 27 goals against Japan, France, Australia, Germany, England, Norway and North Korea (25%).  She has however scored 35 goals against CONCACAAF teams and 7 against Thailand (41%).


Are you really counting NWSL seasons where she appeared for 3 games (and scored 2 goals)?  Or a season in Europe where she appeared in 8 games (and scored 5 goals)?  That's totally misleading to take seasons where she did not really play in order to make the "grand total" goals per season look low.  But regardless, when did scoring in regular season games turn into scoring when it matters?  I thought that was the point of your prior post.  And what's Carli Loyd's average over the same period?  You don't have to do the math - it's fewer goals per season over the same period (or over their respective careers).  

As for her international career, 27 goals against Japan, France, Australia, Germany, England, Norway and North Korea is a lot.  How many games was that in? And how does that compare to Loyd?   Don't include Loyd's 8 goals against Haiti either!

"Facts" are meaningless unless put in context.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2019)

watfly said:


> Smart move.  It would have been a huge issue when you got to KFTM in the knockout rounds.  There wouldn't have been a keeper that made it through 5 kicks without getting sent off with two yellows.  Or in the alternative the kicks would have lasted 20 rounds until a kicker missed a shot on their own accord as the keepers stayed firmly planted to avoid being cautioned.  Very poorly thought out law particularly when combined with the fact that it was subject to a "black or white" VAR review.


The rule has been there for years, but now we have the technology to make an objective call.  If referees start ignoring VAR on those situations because it just doesn't feel right, in an era when everybody has a TV set in their pocket, expect riots.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2019)

espola said:


> The rule has been there for years, but now we have the technology to make an objective call.  If referees start ignoring VAR on those situations because it just doesn't feel right, in an era when everybody has a TV set in their pocket, expect riots.


Can you imagine VAR overturning Briana Scurrys save or the "Hand of God".


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Deflection off of the defenders leg.


That's not a rule, it's just a sportswriting convention.  To call that an own goal is ridiculous.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Deflection off of the defenders leg.


If they decide to do that then they will need to go back and watch every goal scored to see if they need to reclassify them as own goals.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2019)

espola said:


> That's not a rule, it's just a sportswriting convention.  To call that an own goal is ridiculous.


It would not have gone in if it didn’t hit the defender.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> It would not have gone in if it didn’t hit the defender.


And?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 22, 2019)

Stade de Alpes which is hosting the Germany vs Nigeria game looks like an amazing facility.


----------



## Zdrone (Jun 22, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Stade de Alpes which is hosting the Germany vs Nigeria game looks like an amazing facility.


The facility is awesome but the surrounding shots of the city and countryside is amazing. Feel like I wasted my last trip to France (Paris)


----------



## oh canada (Jun 22, 2019)

Glen said:


> Are you really counting NWSL seasons where she appeared for 3 games (and scored 2 goals)?  Or a season in Europe where she appeared in 8 games (and scored 5 goals)?  That's totally misleading to take seasons where she did not really play in order to make the "grand total" goals per season look low.  But regardless, when did scoring in regular season games turn into scoring when it matters?  I thought that was the point of your prior post.  And what's Carli Loyd's average over the same period?  You don't have to do the math - it's fewer goals per season over the same period (or over their respective careers).
> 
> As for her international career, 27 goals against Japan, France, Australia, Germany, England, Norway and North Korea is a lot.  How many games was that in? And how does that compare to Loyd?   Don't include Loyd's 8 goals against Haiti either!
> 
> "Facts" are meaningless unless put in context.


The debate is moot since Nike has made her the face of Women's soccer.  She will play significant minutes and start every game until she no longer wants.  But anytime she is yanked (like the last game), just know that the reason given will be "health or protecting from injury".   Morgan is fast, and that's it.  She has no dribbling skills.  Her back to goal game is awful.  And she does not know how to weight a pass.  Sometimes she gets lucky, but so does every player.  Most of her goals are "cleanup" shots after the ball is bouncing around the box. Hegerberg, Kerr, Sinclair, Miedema, Hermoso, Lloyd, McDonald are all better 9's.  In men's athletics, the best players are the highest paid and have the most sponsors.  Not with women.  Pugh is another good example of this contradiction.  I root for Dunn A LOT because she has earned her spot with a lot of hard work and looks nothing like the SUM/Nike prototype -- small, not great looking, black, hetero, etc.

I didn't realize Ashlyn Harris and Ali Krieger are engaged to one another.  That's an interesting wrinkle re the controversy of Krieger making the team.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 22, 2019)

Really looking forward to the Australia v Norway game.  Look for Norway to double-team Kerr.  Norway midfield best in the tournament.  Australia goalie has looked shaky.  Australia needs to start De Vanna and she needs to be another threat beyond Kerr.  Norway is the better team but something tells me Australia finds a way, against the smart money.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 22, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> The facility is awesome but the surrounding shots of the city and countryside is amazing. Feel like I wasted my last trip to France (Paris)


Agree it looks like an amazing place to stay and watch the cup.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 22, 2019)

Good for Norway.  Play the game the right way.  Fun team to watch.  Probably the dumbest defender (Kennedy) foul I've seen this year--ball nowhere near the player, goalie clearly going to get it, and she doesn't just try to be physical but tugs the jersey.  Deserved the red just on stupidity alone.  Great game by Australia goalie.

Norway over England in the next round.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 22, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Good for Norway.  Play the game the right way.  Fun team to watch.  Probably the dumbest defender (Kennedy) foul I've seen this year--ball nowhere near the player, goalie clearly going to get it, and she doesn't just try to be physical but tugs the jersey.  Deserved the red just on stupidity alone.  Great game by Australia goalie.
> 
> Norway over England in the next round.


England better not overlook their next opponent the way you did


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Go USA!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> England better not overlook their next opponent the way you did


It should be a good game but without Ada Hegerberg Norway might not have enough firepower to beat the English. UEFA is putting on a clinic at this point.  It's pretty much UEFA against the US and Canada....


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> It should be a good game but without Ada Hegerberg Norway might not have enough firepower to beat the English. UEFA is putting on a clinic at this point.  It's pretty much UEFA against the US and Canada....


Don't forget the Chinese.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

Why not Morgan?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

1-1

Horrible giveaway by Naeher and Sauerbrun.  The Spanish are here to play.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

I was about to post a comment about how the TV replay directors are doing a good job of showing the leadup to goals, not just the final shot like clueless Americans too-often do, and then the replays of the Spain goal canceled that out that thought.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

I don't recall Hope Solo ever screwing up this badly.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Spain looks game.  We better watch out.  Their passing is opening up our defense.  Rapinoe looks horrible.  Is Morgan even playing?

Thank goodness for Tobin Heath and out midfield.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 24, 2019)

Rapino back passed near the box w no one marking her ??


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Does Rapinoe ever find a shot that she doesn't like?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

They need to sub out Rapinoe.  She is getting owned and that yellow is a symptom.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Pretty Jennifer and crew are going to score another goal.  We need to up the pressure.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

@Glen Are you watching your girl Alex?  See what a technical team does to her?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

At least Sam Mewis came to play!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

It's time to sub out Rapinoe, bring in Horan and switch to a 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield and Horan at the tip of the spear with Lavelle on the right ant Mewis on the left so that they can tuck in and already be shooting on their strong foot.


----------



## electrichead72 (Jun 24, 2019)

The GK looking right at the Spaniard and still puts that ball there, not a good decision.

Morgan asking for the ball from an offside position is fun.

Ellis needs to make some hard decisions here, as this is looking like it can go against us. The US team came into this taking the Spaniards too lightly.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> The GK looking right at the Spaniard and still puts that ball there, not a good decision.
> 
> Morgan asking for the ball from an offside position is fun.
> 
> Ellis needs to make some hard decisions here, as this is looking like it can go against us. The US team came into this taking the Spaniards too lightly.



I again ask what has Morgan done?  Nike is clearly making roster decisions not Ellis.  I would put Jessica McDonald in for Morgan right now.  I promise that team play is going to be needed from here on.  People forget that card accumulation and injury forced Ellis to use the lineup that ended up winning it for us in 2015.  If those two things hadn't happened we don't go to the finals....

Morgan and Rapinoe to the bench.  Horan and McDonald in.  Where oh where is Jaelene Hinkle one of the best leftbacks in the world.  Crystal Dunn isn't having her best game but of course she should be at the 10 or the 11 and not leftback.


----------



## RocketFile (Jun 24, 2019)

Crystal Dunn is having a horrible game and needs to be replaced.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

RocketFile said:


> Crystal Dunn is having a horrible game and needs to be replaced.


Here is the $60,000 question. Who do we have that can play leftback?  We left Casey Short off the roster and Jaelene Hinkle (you know the best American leftback) wasn't even in consideration due to Ellis trying to make a point instead of trying to make the best team...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Is that Adriana Franch warming up?  Further proof that Ellis is clueless.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Here is the $60,000 question. Who do we have that can play leftback?  We left Casey Short off the roster and Jaelene Hinkle (you know the best American leftback) wasn't even in consideration due to Ellis trying to make a point instead of trying to make the best team...


What point was she trying to make?


----------



## electrichead72 (Jun 24, 2019)

You guys aren't mentioning Press, but I'd put her in for Morgan at the least.

This game is getting away from them.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> What point was she trying to make?


Hinkle is very religious and refused to wear the rainbow jersey and went on the 600 club to discuss it.  Ellis is extremely pro-LGBTQ and didn't feel like "her team" (I thought that this was America's team) couldn't handle her on the roster even though she is clearly the best American at her position.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Hinkle is very religious and refused to wear the rainbow jersey and went on the 600 club to discuss it.  Ellis is extremely pro-LGBTQ and didn't feel like "her team" (I thought that this was America's team) couldn't handle her on the roster even though she is clearly the best American at her position.


What is your source for that opinion?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam Mewis is going to will us to a win.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> What is your source for that opinion?


Google it sir.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

We definitely don't want this game to go to PK's.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Let's hope that trying to get Morgan the Golden Boot doesn't bit us.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Let's hope that trying to get Morgan the Golden Boot doesn't bit us.


Smart to switch to Rapinoe.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Google it sir.


So far, you have provided nothing except your opinions.  If you want to say it is your opinion, I have no problem with that.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

Did Rapino miss both the far post or the open player running toward it?


----------



## electrichead72 (Jun 24, 2019)

That didn't really look like a foul to me, but there it is.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> So far, you have provided nothing except your opinions.  If you want to say it is your opinion, I have no problem with that.


Google it as I told you.  This isn't an opinion of mine.  I know that you have a lot of time on your hands.  Please stop assuming people are as lazy as you are.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> That didn't really look like a foul to me, but there it is.


I will take it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland-thorns/2018/05/jaelene_hinkle_says_she_withdr.html

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2018/june/this-pro-soccer-player-gave-up-the-us-womens-team-just-so-she-could-stand-for-her-faith

https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/2018/6/2/17418662/nc-courage-supporters-react-to-jaelene-hinkles-700-club-interview

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/7/25/17609060/jaelene-hinkle-uswnt-roster-tournament-of-nations-roster-homophobic-700-club-interview

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2778790-jaelene-hinkle-refused-uswnt-call-as-christianity-clashed-with-pro-lgbtq-jerseys

There you go lazy @espola.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

I will take the win.  Not going to be good enough on Friday.


----------



## RocketFile (Jun 24, 2019)

Much better 2nd half by Dunn and Rapino and Morgan. Great game by Lavelle.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Google it as I told you.  This isn't an opinion of mine.  I know that you have a lot of time on your hands.  Please stop assuming people are as lazy as you are.


You ask me to google it, but then suggest I am the lazy one?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Smart to switch to Rapinoe.


Ellis just said on the postgame interview that at first Rapinoe had given the ball to Alex and then she asked her why she wasn't taking it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> You ask me to google it, but then suggest I am the lazy one?


You asked a question where you could Google the answer to.  Again you are welcome lazy ass.  Or is it dumbass?


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.oregonlive.com/portland-thorns/2018/05/jaelene_hinkle_says_she_withdr.html
> 
> https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2018/june/this-pro-soccer-player-gave-up-the-us-womens-team-just-so-she-could-stand-for-her-faith
> 
> ...


I suppose you didn't notice that those articles don't lend much support to your opinion that it was Ellis' decision that she is not on the team.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> I suppose you didn't notice that those articles don't lend much support to your opinion that it was Ellis' decision that she is not on the team.


Ellis makes the roster decisions.  Please dig deeper this is extremely well known and I am sure you probably asked the same question then and just can't remember the answer or that you asked the question.  I suggest ginseng for your memory and some moderate exercise.  It will clean up the cobwebs that you are having and help with your obvious dementia. 

Or are you just a crotchety old man?


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Ellis makes the roster decisions.  Please dig deeper this is extremely well known and I am sure you probably asked the same question then and just can't remember the answer or that you asked the question.  I suggest ginseng for your memory and some moderate exercise.  It will clean up the cobwebs that you are having and help with your obvious dementia.
> 
> Or are you just a crotchety old man?


Since it is "extremely well known" it shouldn't be much trouble for you to show the actual content that is the basis for your opinion.

And your unfounded personal attacks on me are beneath you.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

Spain owned the US in second half.    

All Morgan did this game was flop and complain.  No surprise there.  What does it say that your 9 gets called off of a PK attempt?  Coaches made the switch.  

Too many long balls over the top of the midfield.  No patience with working through midfield.  When they went through Mewis and Lavelle it was good.

Still waiting for a great combo goal by the US.  PKs save them.  Rapinoe sucked on the field but give her props for nailing the corner with both of those PKs.  Lavelle barely touched, if at all, on that second PK call and going sideways in the box.  US saved by the whistle.

Heath disappeared in second half because of all the over the top balls and Spain's dominance.

Dunn struggled, but had the toughest assignment on the pitch.  She had some good recoveries and overlaps in the attack.

Sauerbraun a class act.

Good for US to play these teams -- if they win, they will have earned the crown.  And, US fans get to see firsthand that other countries are now on the same level as USA.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Spain owned the US in second half.
> 
> All Morgan did this game was flop and complain.  No surprise there.  What does it say that your 9 gets called off of a PK attempt?  Coaches made the switch.
> 
> ...


I love a game where either team has a good chance to win.  Let's hope that Diacre isn't dissecting that film.  The US midfield and the referees saved us.  The next opponent has some major home cooking.  I am excited for this Canada/Sweden game.  I am hoping for a bigtime performance from our NORAD partners.  Go Canada!!


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

@espola re Hinkle...her openness about her religious views have been in the news for some time.  And she is also widely known as one of the best backs in the World (and the best in the NWSL).  As Rapinoe has taken a stand with the anthem, she took a stand re not wearing the rainbow jersey.  After, she hasn't been asked back to the team.  Coincidence?  Unlikely since Jill is gay, as are Rapinoe, Davidson, Harris and Krieger are engaged together, and one or two others on the team.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> @espola re Hinkle...her openness about her religious views have been in the news for some time.  And she is also widely known as one of the best backs in the World (and the best in the NWSL).  As Rapinoe has taken a stand with the anthem, she took a stand re not wearing the rainbow jersey.  After, she hasn't been asked back to the team.  Coincidence?  Unlikely since Jill is gay, as are Rapinoe, Davidson, Harris and Krieger are engaged together, and one or two others on the team.


The news articles that MAP linked said that she was invited but declined to go.  I know nothing about this other than that.


----------



## TangoCity (Jun 24, 2019)

Two dumb fouls by Spain (both were fouls) or we lose.


----------



## gkrent (Jun 24, 2019)

Mewis is my new favorite USWNT player.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 24, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> Two dumb fouls by Spain (both were fouls) or we lose.


USA all the way, but that second foul was a bit ticky-tacky.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

That was a great finish by Stina Blackstenius.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Hüsker Dü said:


> USA all the way, but that second foul was a bit ticky-tacky.


I will take it.  You do need a little luck to win a tournament.


----------



## Glen (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> The debate is moot since Nike has made her the face of Women's soccer.  She will play significant minutes and start every game until she no longer wants.  But anytime she is yanked (like the last game), just know that the reason given will be "health or protecting from injury".   Morgan is fast, and that's it.  She has no dribbling skills.  Her back to goal game is awful.  And she does not know how to weight a pass.  Sometimes she gets lucky, but so does every player.  Most of her goals are "cleanup" shots after the ball is bouncing around the box. Hegerberg, Kerr, Sinclair, Miedema, Hermoso, Lloyd, McDonald are all better 9's.  In men's athletics, the best players are the highest paid and have the most sponsors.  Not with women.  Pugh is another good example of this contradiction.  I root for Dunn A LOT because she has earned her spot with a lot of hard work and looks nothing like the SUM/Nike prototype -- small, not great looking, black, hetero, etc.
> 
> I didn't realize Ashlyn Harris and Ali Krieger are engaged to one another.  That's an interesting wrinkle re the controversy of Krieger making the team.


The lady has played in over 100 international games.  Only Akers and Wambach have ever scored at a higher rate.  You can hate on different aspects of her game, but she gets the ball in the net.  Both Akers and Wambach had big holes in their games.  But the point of soccer is putting the ball in the back of the net.  Let's not pretend like its luck and treat her like she is Anna Kournikova.  

I like Dunn too.  I would also take Lynn Williams over Morgan and Pugh.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> The news articles that MAP linked said that she was invited but declined to go.  I know nothing about this other than that.


If I have to do your work for you don't expect it to be thorough.  Of course, you might have already known it and just being your usual contrarian self.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> @espola re Hinkle...her openness about her religious views have been in the news for some time.  And she is also widely known as one of the best backs in the World (and the best in the NWSL).  As Rapinoe has taken a stand with the anthem, she took a stand re not wearing the rainbow jersey.  After, she hasn't been asked back to the team.  Coincidence?  Unlikely since Jill is gay, as are Rapinoe, Davidson, Harris and Krieger are engaged together, and one or two others on the team.


Oh lord.  Hinkle is crap and always has been.  She was hardly ever called up even before she told the world she was an insubordinate bigot who hates her teammates.  Regardless of the fact that she is a bigoted p.o.s., USSF still called her up again even after she began her campaign of self-promoting hatred of others, which says a lot about the character of the rest of the team, which she utterly lacks.  If someone sucks before she tells everyone she's a bigot who hates her co-workers, is it really any coincidence that she doesn't make the team now because she still sucks?


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Hinkle is very religious and refused to wear the rainbow jersey and went on the 600 club to discuss it.  Ellis is extremely pro-LGBTQ and didn't feel like "her team" (I thought that this was America's team) couldn't handle her on the roster even though she is clearly the best American at her position.


Yes, lesbians have all the power.  Pretty soon they'll be coming for your daughter.


----------



## Glen (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, lesbians have all the power.  Pretty soon they'll be coming for your daughter.


This kind of reaction is exactly why Trump won the election.  Take an innocuous, and probably accurate comment and turn it into a flame war with someone who likely supports the LGBTQ community.  

Did someone not hug you enough as a kid?


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> If I have to do your work for you don't expect it to be thorough.  Of course, you might have already known it and just being your usual contrarian self.


What we found out today is that you post things that are not true.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, lesbians have all the power.  Pretty soon they'll be coming for your daughter.


I am not implying that.  I have no problem with anybody's lifestyle choices.  My point is that leaving out the best player at a particular position for non-injury or personality issues is silly.  Hinkle plays with many of these same players and there isn't a problem.  Why not give her a pass (like Rapinoe was given) and let her help us win?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Oh lord.  Hinkle is crap and always has been.  She was hardly ever called up even before she told the world she was an insubordinate bigot who hates her teammates.  Regardless of the fact that she is a bigoted p.o.s., USSF still called her up again even after she began her campaign of self-promoting hatred of others, which says a lot about the character of the rest of the team, which she utterly lacks.  If someone sucks before she tells everyone she's a bigot who hates her co-workers, is it really any coincidence that she doesn't make the team now because she still sucks?


I missed where she said that she hated her teammates (I am not defending her).  What is without question is that she is the best American leftback so you saying she sucks kinda shows your agenda here....


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

espola said:


> What we found out today is that you post things that are not true.


Sure.  You can create whatever you want in that retirement fantasyland that you live in.  Ginseng and exercise Magoo.  Ginseng and exercise.  Your wife might like Cialis too....


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> This kind of reaction is exactly why Trump won the election.  Take an innocuous, and probably accurate comment and turn it into a flame war with someone who likely supports the LGBTQ community.
> 
> Did someone not hug you enough as a kid?


Thank you for saying it.  The only reason it was even brought up is because of Magoo (@espola ) not having anything better to do with his time and clearly not having a mastery of Google and fighting off dementia.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Sure.  You can create whatever you want in that retirement fantasyland that you live in.  Ginseng and exercise Magoo.  Ginseng and exercise.  Your wife might like Cialis too....


Just more empty insults.  Is that how you are going to spend the rest of your life?


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Thank you for saying it.  The only reason it was even brought up is because of Magoo (@espola ) not having anything better to do with his time and clearly not having a mastery of Google and fighting off dementia.


You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I am not implying that.  I have no problem with anybody's lifestyle choices.  My point is that leaving out the best player at a particular position for non-injury or personality issues is silly.  Hinkle plays with many of these same players and there isn't a problem.  Why not give her a pass (like Rapinoe was given) and let her help us win?


According to the stories you linked, that was not Ellis' decision.  She stayed away on her own choice.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I missed where she said that she hated her teammates (I am not defending her).  What is without question is that she is the best American leftback so you saying she sucks kinda shows your agenda here....


Without question?  Would you like to google that?


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

au revoir to my Canadien ladies.  defense was awful.  Beckie hits a decent pk but not as good as Rapinoe's x 2 and the whistle can't save Canada.  Not sure why you don't give the PK to Sinclair?  Credit to Sweden who is always a well-strategized team, but this is a disappointment for the red/white and I expect calls for a coaching change to begin.  coach is under contract through 2020 olympics.  Fleming a disappointing tournament too.  Westwood will be a welcome respite after a couple rough weeks.


----------



## gkrent (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> I would also take Lynn Williams over Morgan and Pugh.


SAME


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> The lady has played in over 100 international games.  Only Akers and Wambach have ever scored at a higher rate.  You can hate on different aspects of her game, but she gets the ball in the net.  Both Akers and Wambach had big holes in their games.  But the point of soccer is putting the ball in the back of the net.  Let's not pretend like its luck and treat her like she is Anna Kournikova.
> 
> I like Dunn too.  I would also take Lynn Williams over Morgan and Pugh.


As we are all seeing first hand, the women's game is completely different than it was 4+ years ago, when many of her goals were scored.  Unless, of course, you are playing cupcake countries.  No longer is speed alone enough to score.  I have never seen before a starting #9 step up to take a PK only to be removed by their coaching staff--men or women.  That says it all.

One more fact to look at if we are ONLY looking at scoring...NWSL all-time scoring (wikipedia).  Morgan has 33 goals in 88 games.  Kerr has 61 goals in 103 games.  Williams (38), Press (37) and Rapinoe (34) all have more goals than Morgan in fewer games.  Kim Little has 32 goals in 63 games.  Lloyd 31 goals in 81 games.  So even in goal scoring she underperforms many of her peers.

She's done a lot for the women's game, and has been a good steward.  But if the best players are supposed to be starting on the field in the World Cup, she is not one of them.  It will be a shame if she wins the golden boot if her only scores are 5 from the barely rec league Thailand team.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> au revoir to my Canadien ladies.  defense was awful.  Beckie hits a decent pk but not as good as Rapinoe's x 2 and the whistle can't save Canada.  Not sure why you don't give the PK to Sinclair?  Credit to Sweden who is always a well-strategized team, but this is a disappointment for the red/white and I expect calls for a coaching change to begin.  coach is under contract through 2020 olympics.  Fleming a disappointing tournament too.  Westwood will be a welcome respite after a couple rough weeks.


Felt like they tried to force the ball to Sinclair all tournament and then decide not to give her the PK?


----------



## Glen (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> I have never seen before a starting #9 step up to take a PK only to be removed by their coaching staff--men or women.  That says it all.


Funny.  That was a great penalty kick by Sinclair, didn't you think?


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> This kind of reaction is exactly why Trump won the election.  Take an innocuous, and probably accurate comment and turn it into a flame war with someone who likely supports the LGBTQ community.
> 
> Did someone not hug you enough as a kid?


Uh, some folks had to go pretty far off topic to bash lesbians and establish their homophobic bona fides.  That's ok, I'm happy to bash back.


----------



## Glen (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Uh, some folks had to go pretty far off topic to bash lesbians and establish their homophobic bona fides.  That's ok, I'm happy to bash back.


No one was bashing lesbians - nor should they.  It was an innocuous comment that only someone with a bug up their bum could take offense.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> au revoir to my Canadien ladies.  defense was awful.  Beckie hits a decent pk but not as good as Rapinoe's x 2 and the whistle can't save Canada.  Not sure why you don't give the PK to Sinclair?  Credit to Sweden who is always a well-strategized team, but this is a disappointment for the red/white and I expect calls for a coaching change to begin.  coach is under contract through 2020 olympics.  Fleming a disappointing tournament too.  Westwood will be a welcome respite after a couple rough weeks.


Sinclair told Beckie to take the kick.  The keeper saved a kick from her at the Algarve Cup and she was worried.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> No one was bashing lesbians - nor should they.  It was an innocuous comment that only someone with a bug up their bum could take offense.


You see what you want to see.  There is not a single fact that supports the proposition that Hinkle is not on this team because of her homophobic hatred of gays.  The reality is that she is not good enough.  She wasn't good enough to play for the WNT in any meaningful games before she revealed herself as a p.o.s. bigot, and she still isn't.  Not that there's anything wrong with kicking bigots to the curb, especially when they're insubordinate.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Uh, some folks had to go pretty far off topic to bash lesbians and establish their homophobic bona fides.  That's ok, I'm happy to bash back.


You are grasping at straws.  Please find a new cross to bear.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are grasping at straws.  Please find a new cross to bear.


It's hard to find any crosses at the rate you're burning them.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> You see what you want to see.  There is not a single fact that supports the proposition that Hinkle is not on this team because of her homophobic hatred of gays.  The reality is that she is not good enough.  She wasn't good enough to play for the WNT in any meaningful games before she revealed herself as a p.o.s. bigot, and she still isn't.  Not that there's anything wrong with kicking bigots to the curb, especially when they're insubordinate.


Do you watch the NWSL?  It doesn't seem like you do.  It seems that you have an axe to grind and want to find a controversy where there isn't one.  You think that Hinkle shouldn't be on the team yet Sonnet should?  You clearly don't watch games.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> It's hard to find any crosses at the rate you're burning them.



Keep trying.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Keep trying.


Is it no fun getting called out for spouting homophobic conspiracy theories?  Hinkle is not good and never has been.  She played for a second rate college team and could only make 3rd team All-American, which made her about the 30th best college player in her class, at best.


----------



## bullsputbol (Jun 24, 2019)

David spade is in the us team how come?


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> Funny.  That was a great penalty kick by Sinclair, didn't you think?


You saw Sinclair step up to take it only to be called back by the Canada coach?  C'mon now.

Rapinoe took the first PK because she is obviously better than Morgan at them and that's the gameplan going in.  No problem with that and no negative reflection on Morgan for that.  BUT, for the second one, either Rapinoe asks Morgan if she wants to take it and Morgan says, "yes" or Morgan tells Rapinoe she wants to take it--we'll never know the truth.  Either way, it doesn't matter, because after she steps up to take it and places her ball on the spot, coaching staff yanks her off during the pause in play in favor of Rapinoe.  Smart move.  And not a big confidence booster for your striker.  THAT, i have never seen before.


----------



## Glen (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> You saw Sinclair step up to take it only to be called back by the Canada coach?  C'mon now.
> 
> Rapinoe took the first PK because she is obviously better than Morgan at them and that's the gameplan going in.  No problem with that and no negative reflection on Morgan for that.  BUT, for the second one, either Rapinoe asks Morgan if she wants to take it and Morgan says, "yes" or Morgan tells Rapinoe she wants to take it--we'll never know the truth.  Either way, it doesn't matter, because after she steps up to take it and places her ball on the spot, coaching staff yanks her off during the pause in play in favor of Rapinoe.  Smart move.  And not a big confidence booster for your striker.  THAT, i have never seen before.


So the coaches tell Sinclair before the game that Beckie is taking the penalties?  That's a big confidence booster for your striker?  Talk about a distinction without a difference.  

And it happens all the time - it happened this weekend in my DD's game.  One kid stepped up to take the penalty, but the coaches switched them out for another kid.  And you have NEVER seen that before?  Come on.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Do you watch the NWSL?  It doesn't seem like you do.  It seems that you have an axe to grind and want to find a controversy where there isn't one.  You think that Hinkle shouldn't be on the team yet Sonnet should?  You clearly don't watch games.


EOL doesn't watch games, just reads scorelines and stats.  If memory serves, he/she was attempting (futilely) to posit last summer that the USWNT is far superior to all other countries and that this WC would bear that out.  Any honest and objective viewer who just watched that Spain game, and the Norway/Australia game, and the France/Brazil game, and the Netherlands, etc. can see that while the US is still the favorite, they are far, very far from dominant.  

As for Hinkle - there will never be any "proof" that she was overlooked due to her religious convictions.  People in power who are racist/prejudiced are usually smart enough to not be so candid.  And while I personally disagree with her beliefs, just because someone disagrees with gay marriage doesn't make them a bigot.  If so, then President Obama was a bigot until he "evolved" his opinion as the Democrat nominee, every priest/pastor who preaches against gay marriage is a bigot,  etc.  If Hinkle disrespects Rapinoe because she is gay or hints at disapproval in the locker room, then she's a bigot.  

Canada has been a leader in gay marriage and we are proud of that.  Our women, however, have never been asked to wear a rainbow jersey.  That decision is odd.  Can you imagine if a cross was on a jersey for a game...omg!


----------



## oh canada (Jun 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> So the coaches tell Sinclair before the game that Beckie is taking the penalties?  That's a big confidence booster for your striker?  Talk about a distinction without a difference.
> 
> And it happens all the time - it happened this weekend in my DD's game.  One kid stepped up to take the penalty, but the coaches switched them out for another kid.  And you have NEVER seen that before?  Come on.


an analogy to youth soccer??....omg!  if you don't realize how big of a slight that was to Morgan, then you simply just don't watch enough professional soccer.  but i understand, it's fine, i don't hold it against you...Nike, Continental, Gatorade and all the corporate sponsors have spent millions of dollars fooling millions of people about the soccer talent of Alex Morgan, so you're not alone.


----------



## MarkM (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> an analogy to youth soccer??....omg!  if you don't realize how big of a slight that was to Morgan, then you simply just don't watch enough professional soccer.  but i understand, it's fine, i don't hold it against you...Nike, Continental, Gatorade and all the corporate sponsors have spent millions of dollars fooling millions of people about the soccer talent of Alex Morgan, so you're not alone.


Ouch.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Spain owned the US in second half.
> 
> All Morgan did this game was flop and complain.  No surprise there.  What does it say that your 9 gets called off of a PK attempt?  Coaches made the switch.
> 
> ...


In soccer at least.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Sure.    Your wife might like Cialis too....


Highly doubtful. She probably hides it.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> You see what you want to see.  There is not a single fact that supports the proposition that Hinkle is not on this team because of her homophobic hatred of gays.  The reality is that she is not good enough.  She wasn't good enough to play for the WNT in any meaningful games before she revealed herself as a p.o.s. bigot, and she still isn't.  Not that there's anything wrong with kicking bigots to the curb, especially when they're insubordinate.


Where did she say she hates her teammates or treats them in a negative way? Just because she won’t wear a rainbow jersey she is a bigot?


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Highly doubtful. She probably hides it.


Look who found a friend.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 24, 2019)

Whether we like someone's religious views or not, whether they are disgusting and offensive or not our country has always been founded on religious freedom and freedom of speech.  We run into trouble when we want to deny someone's voice because we don't like what they have to say.  I am not in support of Hinkle's views but I still support her right to her views and her religious beliefs.  I don't recall her saying hateful things about her teammates but maybe I missed that.  I seem to recall that she expressed her views about not wanting to wear a rainbow jersey.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Whether we like someone's religious views or not, whether they are disgusting and offensive or not our country has always been founded on religious freedom and freedom of speech.  We run into trouble when we want to deny someone's voice because we don't like what they have to say.  I am not in support of Hinkle's views but I still support her right to her views and her religious beliefs.  I don't recall her saying hateful things about her teammates but maybe I missed that.  I seem to recall that she expressed her views about not wanting to wear a rainbow jersey.


You said what I meant in a much more eloquent way.  Hopefully EOL will understand it.  I am far from homophobic.  I just want the USA to win the World Cup and fielding the best team is a great way to accomplish that.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 24, 2019)

I sure can’t wait for that Netherlands vs Japan game.  It’s going to be some pretty soccer being played.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

I know that China is supposed to be the favorite but it seems like everyone forgot to tell the Italians that!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Italian goal just got called back...I did not realize China played direct style...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Italy up 1-0


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I know that China is supposed to be the favorite but it seems like everyone forgot to tell the Italians that!


interesting since Italy looks like the better team...


----------



## outside! (Jun 25, 2019)

I thought Dunn worked HARD. Yes she got turned a few times, but she had some great tackles and intercepts. When she did get turned she hustled to win the ball back and that pressure usually resulted in a turnover. She had some amazing first touches in tight spaces. While I think Hinkle is a great left back, I think Dunn has a better first touch when it matters. Morgan did not play great, but she was obviously targeted, which led to her selling some of the fouls (but many did not need to be sold). The Spanish players came in studs up too many times and it cost them. Mewis was awesome. I though Rapinoe was great for the first chunk of the game, but then she tired and Spain started to figure her out. She was still outrunning her defender at the end of the game. The US needed a tough game and opponent like this after the easy group they were in.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> interesting since Italy looks like the better team...


I agree.  They are looking like a contender.  China doesn't seem to have an answer for their attack and it should be 3-0 already.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I agree.  They are looking like a contender.  China doesn't seem to have an answer for their attack and it should be 3-0 already.


China playing better now...not sure what changed?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

outside! said:


> I thought Dunn worked HARD. Yes she got turned a few times, but she had some great tackles and intercepts. When she did get turned she hustled to win the ball back and that pressure usually resulted in a turnover. She had some amazing first touches in tight spaces. While I think Hinkle is a great left back, I think Dunn has a better first touch when it matters. Morgan did not play great, but she was obviously targeted, which led to her selling some of the fouls (but many did not need to be sold). The Spanish players came in studs up too many times and it cost them. Mewis was awesome. I though Rapinoe was great for the first chunk of the game, but then she tired and Spain started to figure her out. She was still outrunning her defender at the end of the game. The US needed a tough game and opponent like this after the easy group they were in.


She isn't a leftback.  Jaelene Hinkle who is on her team is a leftback.  Crystal Dunn is unfortunately playing completely out of position.  Just imagine her at the 10 or the 11.  Where she gets to run at defenders with pace and skill.  The only think you lose is some of the aerial game but you gain a clinical finisher.  I love Crystal Dunn she should definitely be in the first XI just not on defense.  Tweet her coach for the Courage Paul Riley.  He will be exceedingly frank with you about where HE thinks that she should be playing.  I think that his team could be the US WNT (with all of his players).  I know Lyon definitely could and they beat Lyon at the ICC.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> China playing better now...not sure what changed?


Xi Jingping got on the phone.  You know they don't play in the People's Republic.


----------



## timbuck (Jun 25, 2019)

outside! said:


> I thought Dunn worked HARD. Yes she got turned a few times, but she had some great tackles and intercepts. When she did get turned she hustled to win the ball back and that pressure usually resulted in a turnover. She had some amazing first touches in tight spaces. While I think Hinkle is a great left back, I think Dunn has a better first touch when it matters. Morgan did not play great, but she was obviously targeted, which led to her selling some of the fouls (but many did not need to be sold). The Spanish players came in studs up too many times and it cost them. Mewis was awesome. I though Rapinoe was great for the first chunk of the game, but then she tired and Spain started to figure her out. She was still outrunning her defender at the end of the game. The US needed a tough game and opponent like this after the easy group they were in.


Rose Lavelle was a star yesterday.  Admittedly, I didn't know much about her prior to the World Cup.  She has been consistent, creative and skillful.  At first glance, she certainly doesn't look like a world class athlete.  (Stand her next to Ertz, Dahlkamper, Sauerbraun).

I love Tobin Heath's skill.  She was my favorite player.  But her constant whining is going to cost her.  She'll be chirping at the referee while the opponent keeps playing and blows right past her.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> China playing better now...not sure what changed?


They are definitely picking it up.  Italy is going to kick themselves for not finishing those two breakaways.


----------



## Janie270 (Jun 25, 2019)

Glen said:


> This kind of reaction is exactly why Trump won the election.  Take an innocuous, and probably accurate comment and turn it into a flame war with someone who likely supports the LGBTQ community.
> 
> Did someone not hug you enough as a kid?


You voted for Trump because people are against bigots?  I will agree that Trump has the backing of bigots, racists, homophobes, etc.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Nice goal from Italy now up 2-0.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

That was a nice goal from Italy.  That strike was pinpoint.


----------



## outside! (Jun 25, 2019)

Janie270 said:


> You voted for Trump because people are against bigots?  I will agree that Trump has the backing of bigots, racists, homophobes, etc.


What position does Trump play on the WNT? Let's talk soccer please.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

I love how the Italians strike the ball on the ground.  It makes the keeper have to move laterally and get down.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

I hate to give Fox credit for anything but their coverage has been really good.  No BS tape delays.  Plenty of ex players from multiple countries with excellent analysis.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

I feel like China should spread out and really slow the game down to give themselves a chance...seems like they can't connect more than 1-2 passes when they try to match the up-tempo pace if Italy.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I feel like China should spread out and really slow the game down to give themselves a chance...seems like they can't connect more than 1-2 passes when they try to match the up-tempo pace if Italy.


They are starting to get a couple of chances but Italy is all over them.  I think that they will get one.  But so will Italy.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Seems like China needs new/better forwards...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Seems like China needs new/better forwards...


I agree they need something.  They are getting into the box but they aren't doing anything with it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

It is looking increasingly likely that it is going to be the USA against Europe in the quarterfinals.  Pretty impressive if you ask me.  7 of 8 from UEFA through to the quarters would be crazy.  Japan is the last non-American team standing against European domination.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

https://www.ad.nl/wk-vrouwenvoetbal/verschillen-tussen-nederland-japan-op-wk-2015-en-nu-zijn-groot~a5b64d38/?

A preview of the Japan vs Holland game from the Dutch perspective.  Just hit translate FYI.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

Apparently the top 3 placing UEFA teams get automatic bids into the Olympics.  Lots for the Europeans to play for....


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 25, 2019)

I personally don't mind Dunn as a left back, as long as she gets forward on the attack often, which wasn't happening against Spain. There were a few balls that Mewis played to the corner that would have been perfect for a left back to make a run onto, but nobody was there. I get the need to play defensively sometimes, but Dunn's advantage comes from her attacking abilities. We need more runs forward where she can combo with Rapinoe or send crosses in.

Dunn is going to get straight up tested against France I think with their fast and clinical wing play. Nothing against Becky, but I might play Ertz at the left CB spot to support Dunn on that side and play Horan, Lavelle and Mewis in the midfield. But I'm just an armchair coach who thinks he knows more than he does.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Ned-Japan is a chess match!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Ned-Japan is a chess match!


It is a good one.  Not too physical.  Very technical and strategic.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Brilliant Japanese combination leads to Hasegawa equalizer...1-1


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

Great equalizer by Japan.  The second half will be exciting.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 25, 2019)

oh canada said:


> EOL doesn't watch games, just reads scorelines and stats.  If memory serves, he/she was attempting (futilely) to posit last summer that the USWNT is far superior to all other countries and that this WC would bear that out.  Any honest and objective viewer who just watched that Spain game, and the Norway/Australia game, and the France/Brazil game, and the Netherlands, etc. can see that while the US is still the favorite, they are far, very far from dominant.
> 
> As for Hinkle - there will never be any "proof" that she was overlooked due to her religious convictions.  People in power who are racist/prejudiced are usually smart enough to not be so candid.  And while I personally disagree with her beliefs, just because someone disagrees with gay marriage doesn't make them a bigot.  If so, then President Obama was a bigot until he "evolved" his opinion as the Democrat nominee, every priest/pastor who preaches against gay marriage is a bigot,  etc.  If Hinkle disrespects Rapinoe because she is gay or hints at disapproval in the locker room, then she's a bigot.
> 
> Canada has been a leader in gay marriage and we are proud of that.  Our women, however, have never been asked to wear a rainbow jersey.  That decision is odd.  Can you imagine if a cross was on a jersey for a game...omg!


How many strawman are you going set up and knock down?  As for your memory, the reality is I've never said the USWNT is far superior to anyone. I have said:  "Relax. If the WNT doesn't win the WC, it will be the same result as most of the WCs they've played in. The WNT has been the most consistently good over time and that is going to continue indefinitely, but you're delusional if you think they're worse relative to the rest of the world than they've ever been. The world isn't passing the WNT by. There have always been countries able to challenge and beat the WNT and, go figure, there still are. Right now it is France."

As for Hinkle, funny how you admit that there's no proof that she was overlooked due to her religious convictions, but make the accusation anyway.  If there's no proof, why on earth are you and your buddies going so far out of your way to make the accusation?  In reality, there is plenty of proof that she was overlooked because she just isn't very good.  No one considered her an elite player in HS.  No one considered her an elite player in college.  She was never called up for any legitimate WNT matches before she made public that she's a p.o.s.   The only "evidence" that she's great is the testimony of a couple anonymous posters who claim they watch a ton of NWSL.  But it is axiomatic that the judgment of anyone who wastes time watching a lot of NWSL is highly impaired. 

And yes, if you are opposed to equal civil rights based on sexual orientation, you are by definition a bigot.  You are right that Obama was a bigot until he gained subsequent wisdom.  You are right that every priest/pastor who preaches against gay marriage is a bigot.  It is not acceptable to espouse the violation of civil rights because you read a book that says it's ok.  Just as priests and pastors have defended race discrimination based on the bible are bigots, so too are those who oppose gay marriage.  Religion is not a excuse to be a horrible human being.  If Hinkle wants to be a horrible p.o.s., that is her right.  But it is also the right of everyone else to act accordingly in response. 

If Rapinoe ever takes the position that homophobes and religious freaks shouldn't be allowed marry, you can call her a bigot too.  But, unlike Hinkle, Rapinoe does not oppose anyone's civil rights or the U.S. Constitution.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Brilliant Japanese combination leads to Hasegawa equalizer...1-1


I wish that the US could play like this team.  With the athleticism we have it would be hard to stop.  Of course, you have to pick the players that can play that way instead of picking players based off of their beep test.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> How many strawman are you going set up and knock down?  As for your memory, the reality is I've never said the USWNT is far superior to anyone. I have said:  "Relax. If the WNT doesn't win the WC, it will be the same result as most of the WCs they've played in. The WNT has been the most consistently good over time and that is going to continue indefinitely, but you're delusional if you think they're worse relative to the rest of the world than they've ever been. The world isn't passing the WNT by. There have always been countries able to challenge and beat the WNT and, go figure, there still are. Right now it is France."
> 
> As for Hinkle, funny how you admit that there's no proof that she was overlooked due to her religious convictions, but make the accusation anyway.  If there's no proof, why on earth are you and your buddies going so far out of your way to make the accusation?  In reality, there is plenty of proof that she was overlooked because she just isn't very good.  No one considered her an elite player in HS.  No one considered her an elite player in college.  She was never called up for any legitimate WNT matches before she made public that she's a p.o.s.   The only "evidence" that she's great is the testimony of a couple anonymous posters who claim they watch a ton of NWSL.  But it is axiomatic that the judgment of anyone who wastes time watching a lot of NWSL is highly impaired.
> 
> ...



You have real issues.  Somebody obviously hurt you in some way.  This is a soccer forum and you clearly don't know shit about it.  Why are you on a women's soccer forum if you think that watching the NWSL is a waste of time?  You seem very sexist.  It sucks that Hinkle and her opinions fuck with you so hard.  The real issue is with you.  There is no comparing racial bigots with homophobes and 400 years of history says that.  Don't compare a choice with nature.  It pretty easy to hide if you are gay.  As a matter of fact, if somebody's sexuality is put up in your face it's pretty easy to not notice it at all (and who really cares anyway?)  It's pretty hard to hide being black, brown or Asian.

Save your indignation for pay inequality.  Marriage equality is the law of the land and who cares who somebody screws anyway.  You clearly got your feelings hurt and just want to lash out.  Save it for somebody that deserves it and/or cares.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 25, 2019)

Watching Morgan yesterday left me with a few thoughts:

Is she hurt? If she is Ellis is clueless for playing her when she has viable even better options at her disposal.

Is she sick? Again, on Ellis.

Are we witnessing the end of Morgan as an elite player? Maybe.

Is she pregnant? Hmm... I remember skiing with my wife in Mammoth and her just being very lethargic. Thought maybe it was the elevation. In the way home my wife bought a pregnancy test in Mojave. The drive home was all about what to name our soon to be newest addition.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

@End of the Line If you are so outraged please take it to off topic so you can battle some real assholes that are actually racists and bigots.  Leave us to our soccer conversation or at least watch some women's soccer so that you can add to it.

Or you could just be like @espola and just be a running joke with no purpose (I think his kids are in their 30's now).


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You have real issues.  Somebody obviously hurt you in some way.  This is a soccer forum and you clearly don't know shit about it.  Why are you on a women's soccer forum if you think that watching the NWSL is a waste of time?  You seem very sexist.  It sucks that Hinkle and her opinions fuck with you so hard.  The real issue is with you.  There is no comparing racial bigots and homophobes and 400 years of history says that.  It pretty easy to hide if you are gay.  As a matter of fact, if somebody's sexuality is put up in your face it's pretty easy to not notice it at all (and who really cares anyway?)  It's pretty hard to hide being black, brown or Asian.
> 
> Save your indignation for pay inequality.  Marriage equality is the law of the land and who cares who somebody screws anyway.  You clearly got your feelings hurt and just want to lash out.  Save it for somebody that deserves it and/or cares.


Sad little man thought he could get away with gratuitous and false allegations that Hinkle was discriminated against by a bunch of lesbians.  If you don't want someone in your face about it, don't bring it up.  It's pretty simple.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Watching Morgan yesterday left me with a few thoughts:
> 
> Is she hurt? If she is Ellis is clueless for playing her when she has viable even better options at her disposal.
> 
> ...


Whatever it is we definitely need to be at our best against France.  If we can get ahead of them early the French fans seem terribly fickle and I wouldn't be surprised if they turned on the team.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> @End of the Line If you are so outraged please take it to off topic so you can battle some real assholes that are actually racists and bigots.  Leave us to our soccer conversation or at least watch some women's soccer so that you can add to it.
> 
> Or you could just be like @espola and just be a running joke with no purpose (I think his kids are in their 30's now).


If you are so outraged with your conspiracy theory that lesbians discriminated against Hinkle because she's a homophobe and a bigot, take it to off topic.


----------



## Glen (Jun 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> And yes, if you are opposed to equal civil rights based on sexual orientation, you are by definition a bigot.


Actually, a bigot, by definition, is someone who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.  Kind of ironic, don't you think?


----------



## Glen (Jun 25, 2019)

Janie270 said:


> You voted for Trump because people are against bigots?  I will agree that Trump has the backing of bigots, racists, homophobes, etc.


I voted for Clinton (holding my nose) and Obama (twice - and proudly).  But, again, your response is indicative of why some who voted for Obama voted for Trump.  Turn everything into a flame war, turning those that on your side against you.


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2019)

Japan was straight up robbed.  That is "clearly and obviously" not a handball.  Her arm was down close to her side trying to rotate her arm away from the ball at near point blank range.  She was not making her body "unnaturally bigger" nor is she extending her arm out.  Nothing deliberate about it.  I'd like the ref to tell us what she would consider a natural position for the arm to be in that circumstance.  That ref is lucky it was Japan and not Cameroon.


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 25, 2019)

Forgive me while I get things back on topic ...

Possibly the best match of the tournament just took place. That was fun to watch. Japan was the better side in this match but you gotta finish your chances. That one will sting for awhile.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> Japan was straight up robbed.  That is "clearly and obviously" not a handball.  Her arm was down close to her side trying to rotate her arm away from the ball at near point blank range.  She was not making her body "unnaturally bigger" nor is she extending her arm out.  Nothing deliberate about it.  I'd like the ref to tell us what she would consider a natural position for the arm to be in that circumstance.  That ref is lucky it was Japan and not Cameroon.


Losing like that totally sucked...I guess attackers should just aim at the arms of defenders in the box...geeze


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Goforgoal said:


> Forgive me while I get things back on topic ...
> 
> Possibly the best match of the tournament just took place. That was fun to watch. Japan was the better side in this match but you gotta finish your chances. That one will sting for awhile.


GFG I agree that was my favorite match to watch so far...


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 25, 2019)

Goforgoal said:


> Forgive me while I get things back on topic ...
> 
> Possibly the best match of the tournament just took place. That was fun to watch. Japan was the better side in this match but you gotta finish your chances. That one will sting for awhile.


The Dutch disappeared in that second half.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> Japan was straight up robbed.  That is "clearly and obviously" not a handball.  Her arm was down close to her side trying to rotate her arm away from the ball at near point blank range.  She was not making her body "unnaturally bigger" nor is she extending her arm out.  Nothing deliberate about it.  I'd like the ref to tell us what she would consider a natural position for the arm to be in that circumstance.  That ref is lucky it was Japan and not Cameroon.


VAR got it wrong. Ref got it wrong. Agree no PK should have been awarded.


----------



## espola (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> @End of the Line If you are so outraged please take it to off topic so you can battle some real assholes that are actually racists and bigots.  Leave us to our soccer conversation or at least watch some women's soccer so that you can add to it.
> 
> Or you could just be like @espola and just be a running joke with no purpose (I think his kids are in their 30's now).


It looks like you are still smarting from being embarrassed yesterday by the revelation of your difficulty with reality.  The way I see it, at this point you have 2 choices.  

A:  You told the truth about me being a helpless little old man, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself for picking on me.
B:  You lied about it, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself for that.

Your pick.

BTW, from my viewpoint knowing what I do about myself and observing how you have responded on this thread, your best choice is B.


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Losing like that totally sucked...I guess attackers should just aim at the arms of defenders in the box...geeze


This tournament has already broadcast to defenders that you better step to the ball in the box with your arms behind your back or risk the consequences. Natural position or distance to the ball be damned. That said, I honestly thought that one would be overturned. I had to pick my jaw off the floor when she didn't even look at it and pulled out the yellow card.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I wish that the US could play like this team.  With the athleticism we have it would be hard to stop.  Of course, you have to pick the players that can play that way instead of picking players based off of their beep test.[/QUOTE.


...and coaches who can coach it...


----------



## bullsputbol (Jun 25, 2019)

japanese was a better team. They played better than netherlands


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

Goforgoal said:


> This tournament has already broadcast to defenders that you better step to the ball in the box with your arms behind your back or risk the consequences. Natural position or distance to the ball be damned. That said, I honestly thought that one would be overturned. I had to pick my jaw off the floor when she didn't even look at it and pulled out the yellow card.


GFG, I haven't seen the replay but as you said it was a point black blast so I am not sure she had enough time to tuck her arms in even if she wanted to...


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> GFG, I haven't seen the replay but as you said it was a point black blast so I am not sure she had enough time to tuck her arms in even if she wanted to...


I just watched it again in real time speed and in slow motion. Still a bad and wrong call.


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> GFG, I haven't seen the replay but as you said it was a point black blast so I am not sure she had enough time to tuck her arms in even if she wanted to...


While I wholeheartedly agree, with the new laws, if the player is "unnaturally bigger" or arm is above shoulder, "closeness" to the ball is irrelevant...unfortunately.

It is usually an offence if a player:
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
• the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
• the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately
plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from
the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 25, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I just watched it again in real time speed and in slow motion. Still a bad and wrong call.


The ref’s took nothing into consideration on the circumstances of the play and as Watfly stated the players arm could not be in any more of a natural position under that scenario.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

If I had been the referee in this game- this would be my response to the alleged "handball": "That ain't no problem"


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2019)

Agree with watfly.  Under the new laws, unfortunate but that's a penalty.  The instruction coming out of the rules revisions to the refs (both on this and the goalkeeper line) is (unlike some things like the throw in rule and it's lack enforcement), we really mean it.


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> Agree with watfly.  Under the new laws, unfortunate but that's a penalty.  The instruction coming out of the rules revisions to the refs (both on this and the goalkeeper line) is (unlike some things like the throw in rule and it's lack enforcement), we really mean it.


You may have missed my initial post, even under the new laws, I firmly believe that was not a penalty.  The player wasn't unnaturally bigger, it hit her upper arm which was barely away from her body.  Even if her whole arm was pressed against her body it will still would have hit her upper arm.   My point to soccerobserver was that "closeness" to the ball is not to be considered in the "unnaturally bigger" situation, which is the only reason the ref could use to rationalize her call.

I've said this before, what's ironic is defenders playing with their arms behind their backs is what is unnatural.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree, with the new laws, if the player is "unnaturally bigger" or arm is above shoulder, "closeness" to the ball is irrelevant...unfortunately.
> 
> It is usually an offence if a player:
> • touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
> ...


The rules also stipulate it is not a handball if a player is hit on the arm by the ball without moving towards the ball and without being able to move out of the way. This supports your statement.


----------



## espola (Jun 25, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> The rules also stipulate it is not a handball if a player is hit on the arm by the ball without moving towards the ball and without being able to move out of the way. This supports your statement.


In the current officiating regime, clever forwards who have no open shot at the goal will just shoot at defenders' arms instead.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> I've said this before, what's ironic is defenders playing with their arms behind their backs is what is unnatural.


From the rumors that came out of the IFAB meetings on the rules revision, that was exactly the objection that was raised by the traditionalists in the handball rule discussions...absent guidance of what is "unnaturally bigger" you have to have your hands firmly planted to the side.  Her arms were out, barring some clarifying interpretation of what unnaturally bigger means.  Stupid rule, but correct application of the rule, if we are going to be strict about it (which seems to be the direction).

I agree, however, that it will come to their arms behind the back (though after this WWC I'm also sure we are in for some further rules revisions).


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> The rules also stipulate it is not a handball if a player is hit on the arm by the ball without moving towards the ball and without being able to move out of the way. This supports your statement.



Another objection raised by the traditionalists at the time.  That circumstance is preceded with the words "Except for the above offences", which leads to the question why have that list at all?  Supposedly it's supposed to be illustrative, but not controlling???  Said it at the time, but the new revision makes no sense...it was made as a compromise between the traditionalists and the strict handball factions, and (unless you are going to take the most extreme literal and expansionist interpretation, which it seems is what they are doing) are a muddled mess at best, game altering in a bad way at worst.  Hate the rule, not the refs.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 25, 2019)

Goforgoal said:


> Forgive me while I get things back on topic ...
> 
> Possibly the best match of the tournament just took place. That was fun to watch. Japan was the better side in this match but you gotta finish your chances. That one will sting for awhile.


First match I’ve missed... I hope they replay it tonight.


----------



## jojosoccer (Jun 25, 2019)

Just returning from France. Great atmosphere, friendly people everywhere. Really fun.
FIFA web site was bad, but we managed to get our $17 tickets.
Paid $49 for USA - Spain and there were plenty of open seats.
Hotels were very nice, paid $139 on Hotels.com. included breakfast.
Cheaper World Cup than I’ve paid for Men’s WC in the past.
It was frustrating watching our forward line not finishing. Fans were grumbling about substitutions, but that didn’t really happen. It was warm there for sure.
I was waiting for Press to come in by the 38 minute I couldn’t stand watching Morgan do nothing and Rapinoe miss every chance. Rapinoe was disruptive but she’s not a true finisher anyway.
Shoulda subbed in that heat and Spain’s pressure.
Put Ertz in the back line and bring Horan in the mid if you want to win on Friday. Also, going to have to use Press and McDonald at some point Friday. Lloyd too at some point to FINISH.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 25, 2019)

I’m the furthest thing from an expert but sure does feel like VAR like instant replay in the NFL is there to punish the defense


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> I’m the furthest thing from an expert but sure does feel like VAR like instant replay in the NFL is there to punish the defense


That's funny, because a large part of the argument for VAR was to prevent some infractions on the offense, like checking the offside on breakaways or avoiding offensive tricks like the hand of God.  I think it's done that pretty well (and did it pretty well at the men's WC)...but combined with the new rule changes it's not working and taking too long (on a penalty, for example, you have to first review it to see if it's a penalty, then review it for the goalkeeper infraction once it's taken, and if there was an infraction, review the second shot too).


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 25, 2019)

GT whatever the rules are the outcomes feel like the tail is wagging the dog so to speak. Too many times a game is being decided by tiny aspects of the game that have little to do with skill, tactics and strategy. I think each team should be given one chance per game to use VAR. maybe that would help restore some balance to how the games are being decided. Also the hand ball rule should allow for interpretation by the referee and should not be called for inadvertent minimal contact. The penalty to Japan was disproportionate to the crime in my humble opinion.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 25, 2019)

Was talking with my Dad today and he was texting one of his friends in Holland. The guy is the President of one of the sports federations for Holland and even he felt it was not a handball. VAR has had too much of an impact on this WC..

Fridays game will be epic and sure hope Ellis decides to mix it up. I'm pulling for a Netherlands v USA final.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 25, 2019)

espola said:


> It looks like you are still smarting from being embarrassed yesterday by the revelation of your difficulty with reality.  The way I see it, at this point you have 2 choices.
> 
> A:  You told the truth about me being a helpless little old man, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself for picking on me.
> B:  You lied about it, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself for that.
> ...


Man I can’t even follow you.  What did you accuse me of lying about?  Look you are a contrarian with too much time on his hands.  Any time that you want to find out what I think we can meet at Kaminski’s near my house (I know that you know where that is) and I can show you.  PM me and I will give you my number.  Otherwise you are just a pussy and somebody that I don’t have time for.

You heard my position, I assume that even someone as lazy as you can use Google.

If you want to find out how far I will go you should Google me.  And PM me.


----------



## espola (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Man I can’t even follow you.  What did you accuse me of lying about?  Look you are a contrarian with too much time on his hands.  Any time that you want to find out what I think we can meet at Kaminski’s near my house (I know that you know where that is) and I can show you.  PM me and I will give you my number.  Otherwise you are just a pussy and somebody that I don’t have time for.
> 
> You heard my position, I assume that even someone as lazy as you can use Google.
> 
> If you want to find out how far I will go you should Google me.  And PM me.


Are you denying that you made all those false statements about me?


----------



## oh canada (Jun 25, 2019)

This WC is looking like it will be decided by fouls and handballs in the box, unfortunately.  The 3 favorites - France, US and Netherlands all played poorly this round and were saved by the whistle.  Maybe the answer is if it's not a deliberate/intentional handling in the box then it's an indirect kick, not a PK?

Japan was brilliant.  A post and crossbar away from advancing.

If France loses Friday they are out of WC and the Olympics next year!  Ooof.  Talk about high stakes.  As many have said, I think the homefield advantage may actually work against them.  USA 2-1.  3-1 if Lloyd starts over Morgan


----------



## espola (Jun 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Man I can’t even follow you.  What did you accuse me of lying about?  Look you are a contrarian with too much time on his hands.  Any time that you want to find out what I think we can meet at Kaminski’s near my house (I know that you know where that is) and I can show you.  PM me and I will give you my number.  Otherwise you are just a pussy and somebody that I don’t have time for.
> 
> You heard my position, I assume that even someone as lazy as you can use Google.
> 
> If you want to find out how far I will go you should Google me.  And PM me.


I googled "Makeaplay".  I got a site featuring New York City youth basketball coaches.  Is that you?


----------



## Janie270 (Jun 26, 2019)

Glen said:


> I voted for Clinton (holding my nose) and Obama (twice - and proudly).  But, again, your response is indicative of why some who voted for Obama voted for Trump.  Turn everything into a flame war, turning those that on your side against you.


MAGA 101. The belief that YOU are the one being persecuted because you are losing the right to exercise your bigotry without repercussions.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2019)

Janie270 said:


> MAGA 101. The belief that YOU are the one being persecuted because you are losing the right to exercise your bigotry without repercussions.


JUNE 26, 2019
*Making LGBT a Protected Class Will Kill Religious Liberty*
By T.R. Clancy
The current campaign to amend federal and state civil rights laws to extend protections to sexual orientation and gender identity isn't meant to eliminate discrimination — it's meant to eliminate religious freedom.

What else are we to believe when proponents of such amendments tell us as much?

Earlier this month, Michigan State Senator Jeremy Moss introduced legislation to amend the state's civil rights law to add sexual orientation and sexual identity as protected classes. One of the main objections to changing the law before now has been the harm it must do to conscience protections and the free exercise of religion. Like their federal cousin, the Equality Act, these laws can't ensure equality because, as gay writer Brad Polumbo explains, they work by "elevating [LGBT] rights over those of religious Americans." 

Senator Moss isn't even pretending this isn't the case. As reported in the Oakland Press, Moss said:

[T]he legislation will not make exceptions for those whose religious beliefs condemn homosexuality and other lifestyles[.] ... That would mean, for example, that a Catholic school that teaches against homosexuality could not discriminate against a homosexual job applicant on the basis of sexual orientation.

Bakery owners and photographers could not refuse to serve a same-sex couple's wedding on the basis of their religious beliefs.

None of this bothers Moss, who "says he is gay as well as a practicing Jew," and doesn't see what the problem is. He "knows plenty of rabbis and other religious leaders who support the legislation." Besides, believers who don't see it his way just don't understand the Bible, or their own faith: "A few passages in the Old Testament (teaching against homosexuality) don't give people the right to discriminate. I don't believe there is a conflict between religious values and treating everyone fairly."

And if it turns out there is a conflict between Moss's ideas about "treating everyone fairly" and someone's religious values, then we'll just ignore the religious values. As David Harsanyi recently noted at The Federalist, "compelling the right kind of speech no longer seems a bothersome prospect to most progressives. Any neutral principles that are inherent in the First Amendment have long been discarded for more pressing matters of social justice." How else could Moss write a law that forces a Catholic school principal to hire a homosexual teacher whose lifestyle contradicts Catholic teaching, and forces a Christian baker to design a cake with a message the baker considers sinful?


----------



## Justafan (Jun 26, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> JUNE 26, 2019
> *Making LGBT a Protected Class Will Kill Religious Liberty*
> By T.R. Clancy
> The current campaign to amend federal and state civil rights laws to extend protections to sexual orientation and gender identity isn't meant to eliminate discrimination — it's meant to eliminate religious freedom.
> ...


Nobody here is reading this.


----------



## push_up (Jun 26, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> JUNE 26, 2019
> *Making LGBT a Protected Class Will Kill Religious Liberty*
> By T.R. Clancy
> The current campaign to amend federal and state civil rights laws to extend protections to sexual orientation and gender identity isn't meant to eliminate discrimination — it's meant to eliminate religious freedom.
> ...


Thanks for posting this.  Good read!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

This month\ the Wall Street Journal published an audit of the revenues generated by the USWNT and the USMNT. The article is behind a paywall but the main headline supports the idea of increased pay for the USWNT...From the Wall Street Journal:

*"U.S. Women’s Soccer Games Outearned Men’s Games *
*The 2015 World Cup title was a catalyst to boost women’s game revenues, which in recent years exceeded the men’s*
By
Rachel Bachman
June 17, 2019 6:00 am ET

PARIS—In the three years after the U.S. women’s soccer team won the 2015 World Cup, U.S. women’s games generated more total revenue than U.S. men’s games, according to audited financial reports from the U.S. Soccer Federation."


Here is the link but the paywall is an issue:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600


----------



## watfly (Jun 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> If France loses Friday they are out of WC and the Olympics next year!  Ooof.  Talk about high stakes.  As many have said, I think the homefield advantage may actually work against them.  USA 2-1.  3-1 if Lloyd starts over Morgan


4-1 if Press starts over Rapinoe...no, wait a second, since most games are being decided on a PK, Rapinoe probably needs to stay in there.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

I have not watched the French team closely but I read that _Les Bleus_ are not playing well leading up to the match on Friday.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> This WC is looking like it will be decided by fouls and handballs in the box, unfortunately.  The 3 favorites - France, US and Netherlands all played poorly this round and were saved by the whistle.  Maybe the answer is if it's not a deliberate/intentional handling in the box then it's an indirect kick, not a PK?
> 
> Japan was brilliant.  A post and crossbar away from advancing.
> 
> If France loses Friday they are out of WC and the Olympics next year!  Ooof.  Talk about high stakes.  As many have said, I think the homefield advantage may actually work against them.  USA 2-1.  3-1 if Lloyd starts over Morgan


Japan was not brilliant and the Japanese way of doing things has been proven to be an epic failure.  Japan has gotten worse in two straight world cups.  This time around they got smoked by England, couldn't get past a weak Argentina and struggled against Scotland, all before crashing out in the round of 16.  I don't believe they've beaten the US in nine years.  You are confusing pretty soccer with effective soccer.  You probably think Jessie Fleming is the greatest player ever, since she'd fit right in with Japan's merry band of circus jugglers who routinely get pushed off the ball and can't effectively defend bigger, stronger and faster opponents.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

Japan came from behind twice to draw a tie with the USWNT in *February 2019*...if you think Japan is an epic failure what must you think of us?

From Planet Futbol: "USWNT Blows Two Leads, Settles for SheBelieves Cup Draw vs. Japan"
https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/02/27/uswnt-japan-shebelieves-cup-draw-rapinoe-press-morgan-davidson


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Nobody here is reading this.


Reading is fundamental.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 26, 2019)

Rapinoe....on queue..."i'm not going to the fucking white house."  she was asked by the reporter, but a better answer would have been "let's win and then worry about that stuff."

https://twitter.com/8by8mag/status/1143595809910530048


----------



## oh canada (Jun 26, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Japan came from behind twice to draw a tie with the USWNT in *February 2019*...if you think Japan is an epic failure what must you think of us?
> 
> From Planet Futbol: "USWNT Blows Two Leads, Settles for SheBelieves Cup Draw vs. Japan"
> https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/02/27/uswnt-japan-shebelieves-cup-draw-rapinoe-press-morgan-davidson


EOL is far from a soccer savant and incapable of critical thinking when it comes to the USWNT.  Don't waste your time.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 26, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Nobody here is reading this.


There are more haters in this world than we would like to think.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> EOL is far from a soccer savant and incapable of critical thinking when it comes to the USWNT.  Don't waste your time.


Realized that when they came on the scene. They have been on ignore for quite awhile now. 
It’s been great.


----------



## wc_baller (Jun 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Rapinoe....on queue..."i'm not going to the fucking white house."  she was asked by the reporter, but a better answer would have been "let's win and then worry about that stuff."
> 
> https://twitter.com/8by8mag/status/1143595809910530048


Love the honesty, Megan! Nothing wrong with speaking your mind, and Americans love a straight shooter... at least that’s what Trump supporters keep telling me.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2019)

Hüsker Dü said:


> There are more haters in this world than we would like to think.


Yes, they are caller nevertrumpers.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2019)

wc_baller said:


> Love the honesty, Megan! Nothing wrong with speaking your mind, and Americans love a straight shooter... at least that’s what Trump supporters keep telling me.


Nothing straight about that pinko.
Honestly.


----------



## wc_baller (Jun 26, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Nothing straight about that pinko.
> Honestly.


Triggered much, my little right wing snowflake?


----------



## timbuck (Jun 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Rapinoe....on queue..."i'm not going to the fucking white house."  she was asked by the reporter, but a better answer would have been "let's win and then worry about that stuff."
> 
> https://twitter.com/8by8mag/status/1143595809910530048


I heard that was recorded in January.  
If she cleaned up her language, I would 1,000,000% support her.  I don't see the need for her to drop the f bomb there.  But I've heard plenty of male athletes use much worse language.  So, I still support her.
Plenty of high profile athletes have not wanted to meet President's in the past.  https://theweek.com/articles/460872/18-athletes-who-refused-visit-white-house
I hope she has a great game on Friday and shuts everybody up.
Mr Trump should probably not really focus on what a single player on a soccer team has to say about him.  I'm sure he's got much more important things to worry about.


----------



## Justafan (Jun 26, 2019)

[QUOTE="timbuck, post: 271988, member: 29
Mr Trump should probably not really focus on what a single player on a soccer team has to say about him.  I'm sure he's got much more important things to worry about.[/QUOTE]

No doubt that deep down he’ll be rooting for the US to lose so he can talk some crap to Rapinoe.  Book it.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 26, 2019)

This thread is what happens when we have a day off of world cup games.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> This thread is what happens when we have a day off of world cup games.


Loser joe has nothing better to do than take a crap on otherwise interesting threads.


----------



## push_up (Jun 26, 2019)

espola said:


> Loser joe has nothing better to do than take a crap on otherwise interesting threads.


You were probably sitting in a pool of your own feces due to your increasingly problematic dementia while you typed that last post.  First wipe away the crap that is caked to you before you talk crap about others.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2019)

push_up said:


> You were probably sitting in a pool of your own feces due to your increasingly problematic dementia while you typed that last post.  First wipe away the crap that is caked to you before you talk crap about others.


Looks like loser joe found a friend.


----------



## jojosoccer (Jun 26, 2019)

My friend says there is a “Trump Curse”
for those athletes that say they will not visit the White House after they are crowned champions....
Before they even win...... and then they lose in the playoffs ....this curse better not be true.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jun 26, 2019)

If USA loses it will be because they lost to the better team that day or the coach was too loyal to some players that should have been pulled earlier or should have not been in the starting lineup...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 26, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> If USA loses it will be because they lost to the better team that day or the coach was too loyal to some players that should have been pulled earlier or should have not been in the starting lineup...


If the US loses it will be because of our English coach and her converting us to Europe.  This is America and we need American solutions that take American culture and values into consideration.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> If the US loses it will be because of our English coach and her converting us to Europe.  This is America and we need American solutions that take American culture and values into consideration.


MAP I am not sure what you mean by this post. How is she making us into Euros? What would be different w an American solution ? I don't see it. Maybe you are being sarcastic? Maybe I need some Henny to see it better.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 26, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> MAP I am not sure what you mean by this post. How is she making us into Euros? What would be different w an American solution ? I don't see it. Maybe I need some Henny to see it better.


She is trying to change the US model on the women’s side to a European Academy/Professional model which works in Europe due to the small travel distances and great transit infrastructure.  Regarding this game it will be due to lineup decisions.

The good news is that our player pool is so deep that a good coach will always be able to produce a top tier US team even if it doesn’t capture all of the best players.  We can get by with most of the best simply because China and India don’t have their shit together yet regarding women’s soccer.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> If the US loses it will be because of our English coach and her converting us to Europe.  This is America and we need American solutions that take American culture and values into consideration.


Ok saw your other post now I get it and it makes eminent sense.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 26, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> MAP I am not sure what you mean by this post. How is she making us into Euros? What would be different w an American solution ? I don't see it. Maybe you are being sarcastic? Maybe I need some Henny to see it better.


I have to save the Henny Hen Hen for special occasions.  My tolerance for liquor has gone way down so I mostly stick to the hops and the grapes.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

538 is giving the US a 54% chance to defeat France


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I heard that was recorded in January.
> If she cleaned up her language, I would 1,000,000% support her.  I don't see the need for her to drop the f bomb there.  But I've heard plenty of male athletes use much worse language.  So, I still support her.
> Plenty of high profile athletes have not wanted to meet President's in the past.  https://theweek.com/articles/460872/18-athletes-who-refused-visit-white-house
> I hope she has a great game on Friday and shuts everybody up.
> Mr Trump should probably not really focus on what a single player on a soccer team has to say about him.  I'm sure he's got much more important things to worry about.


And she should STFU and play.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 26, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> 538 is giving the US a 54% chance to defeat France
> 
> 
> View attachment 4947


I like that better than Norway’s chances of beating England.  I hope that we get some moments of brilliance on Friday and that we defend as a team.  We can beat them in spite of everything if they focus on defending.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 26, 2019)

I think Dunn is in such a tough position. She plays forward in real life and is not a left back. So she has to think out there. Now she is up against speedy, strong world class frenchie forwards. Plus can our own forwards can keep possession of the ball for a minute  ??? Can our own mids play with the forwards and not launch scud missiles from 40 yards out and turn the ball back over ?? This is what I saw as issues vs Spain. I hope we can prevail Friday.


----------



## jojosoccer (Jun 27, 2019)

OHara is not a right back either. She consistently turns the ball over and tends to be positionally lost defending.
Her body language is horrible.
Yes, she can go forward, but Friday is about defending. Ertz has a lot of covering to do with Dunn and OHara.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

That was quick!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> That was quick!



Like I said I like our chances better than Norway's.  England is going to take them to the woodshed.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

I love Nikki Parris.  She is definitely going to get one.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

Norway seems very patient. Sometimes they just sit back and give England enough time to have  BBQ back there...


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> VAR got it wrong. Ref got it wrong. Agree no PK should have been awarded.


England vs. Norway in the 32nd minute Ref got it right with no call. No VAR involved. Norway forward shot on goal. Ball struck English defenders foot. Ball deflected upward striking the defenders arm.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Norway seems very patient. Sometimes they just sit back and give England enough time to have  BBQ back there...


That should have been a handball on Demi Stokes, although as a parent of a defender I am glad when they use context related discretion.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

Bardsley almost goofed that one.  Norway is growing into the game.

They could sure yous Hegerberg.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

Beautiful!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Beautiful!


England's right hand side is killing Norway.  White might end up with the Golden Ball.  She just tied Morgan and Kerr and her goals weren't against cupcakes like both of theirs' were.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> England's right hand side is killing Norway.  White might end up with the Golden Ball.  She just tied Morgan and Kerr and her goals weren't against cupcakes like both of theirs' were.


That was a slick goal. Played calmly and with vision.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> That was a slick goal. Played calmly and with vision.


Just when Norway looked like it could climb back at the doable 2-0 scoreline. England pounds a third home. Game over.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> If the US loses it will be because of our English coach and her converting us to Europe.  This is America and we need American solutions that take American culture and values into consideration.


I suspect tomorrow’s game may be very similar to the one against Spain. I have to admit Spain tried to play more physical and disruptive, with forsaking the style of play shown prior. Will France do the same?


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I suspect tomorrow’s game may be very similar to the one against Spain. I have to admit Spain tried to play more physical and disruptive, with forsaking the style of play shown prior. Will France do the same?


I hoping France feels tight due to the pressure and underperforms on the big stage


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I hoping France feels tight due to the pressure and underperforms on the big stage


Hopefully! Or they come out enfuego. Don’t want that.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

England is pouring it on.  Norway has had it's chances.  Bardsley has been money.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

Not a great placement of the PK..


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Not a great placement of the PK..


You beat me to it.  Why would you every hit it at chest height?  Make them go low or high.  Not to mention that she telegraphed it.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

It her second missed PK in the World Cup this year....


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

Whomever wins tomorrow is going to have their hands full next week with the Lionesses.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

Tomorrow's game is getting hyped up....

From USA Today: 
*"Opinion: Why U.S.-France World Cup match is biggest game in women's soccer history" *

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/fifa-womens-world-cup/opinion-why-us-france-world-cup-match-is-biggest-game-in-womens-soccer-history/ar-AADwejC?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

"Friday night’s World Cup quarterfinal between the top-ranked U.S. women and host France has been sold out for weeks. Tickets on the resale market ranged from $182 -- that’s for a seat in the rafters -- to $2,160 on Thursday. Coverage of France’s women’s team has pushed the men’s team – and Neymar – to the inside pages of the papers. A soccer store near Parc des Princes that two weeks ago didn’t have anything World Cup-related on display now has two window fronts filled with merchandise for the game, including T-shirts with “Allez Les Bleues!” emblazoned on the front, the extra e in bold red."


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 27, 2019)

I thought Norway would give England a better game, but the Lionesses really came out firing. Good on them. That 3rd goal was an absolute screamer. Great technique.

I'm excited for tomorrow. Let's go USA!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 27, 2019)

Goforgoal said:


> I thought Norway would give England a better game, but the Lionesses really came out firing. Good on them. That 3rd goal was an absolute screamer. Great technique.
> 
> I'm excited for tomorrow. Let's go USA!


I did not think those two teams were at the same level of skill or athleticism. I think the announcer even mentioned that Norway had fallen a lot from when they were World Cup Champions.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I did not think those two teams were at the same level of skill or athleticism. I think the announcer even mentioned that Norway had fallen a lot from when they were World Cup Champions.


It was pretty clear that England was the better side but Norway had their chances.  Whomever wins between us and France better not take them for granted that is for sure.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2019)

https://people.com/sports/jessica-mcdonald-surprise-reunion-with-son-before-quarterfinal-match/amp/
*USWNT Star Has Surprise Reunion with Her 7-Year-Old Son in France Before Quarterfinal Match*

_





DAVID RAMOS/FIFA/GETTY

_


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 27, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> https://people.com/sports/jessica-mcdonald-surprise-reunion-with-son-before-quarterfinal-match/amp/
> *USWNT Star Has Surprise Reunion with Her 7-Year-Old Son in France Before Quarterfinal Match*
> 
> _
> ...


Thank you for sharing.  Truly heartwarming and I gotta admit it made me tear up a little bit.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Thank you for sharing.  Truly heartwarming and I gotta admit it made me tear up a little bit.


Agreed.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 28, 2019)

Speaking of McDonald she is the poster child for anti-DA philosophy.  She played two other sports besides soccer throughout high school and continued to play basketball in junior college.  Is the DA approach about power/control, foreign coaches not understanding the values and culture in America, or true development?  I think more of the first two two as opposed to the last.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 28, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Speaking of McDonald she is the poster child for anti-DA philosophy.  She played two other sports besides soccer throughout high school and continued to play basketball in junior college.  Is the DA approach about power/control, foreign coaches not understanding the values and culture in America, or true development?  I think more of the first two two as opposed to the last.


Can never pass up an opportunity to share your negative opinion about  DA can you?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

I just hope that despite everything we win today.


----------



## timmyh (Jun 28, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Speaking of McDonald she is the poster child for anti-DA philosophy.  She played two other sports besides soccer throughout high school and continued to play basketball in junior college.  Is the DA approach about power/control, foreign coaches not understanding the values and culture in America, or true development?  I think more of the first two two as opposed to the last.


I think her pathway makes for a great story.  She is a freak athlete and seems like a genuinely nice person.

However you seem to miss the obvious counterpoint to your argument that US Soccer would instead probably consider her the poster child for why DA is needed... "As amazing as she is, can you imagine how good she could have been if she focused on soccer instead of splitting her developmental years amongst multiple sports?"

I assume US Soccer looks at a player like that whose ceiling was perhaps becoming the best player on the planet (but instead apparently topped out as squad depth for the best team on the planet), and thinks this is even more reason to implement the DA environment.


----------



## espola (Jun 28, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Can never pass up an opportunity to share your negative opinion about  DA can you?


But he's right.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

Mewis is in the starting lineup.  I'm liking what I am hearing so far.  Horan should be in it too but it is what it is I guess.  Go USA!!


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 28, 2019)

I still think Ertz should have been moved to left center back and add Horan to the midfield line for this match. Alas it's the same starting lineup as the Spain game. I guess we'll see how it goes, but look for France to push the ball up the right side early and often.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 28, 2019)

timmyh said:


> I think her pathway makes for a great story.  She is a freak athlete and seems like a genuinely nice person.
> 
> However you seem to miss the obvious counterpoint to your argument that US Soccer would instead probably consider her the poster child for why DA is needed... "As amazing as she is, can you imagine how good she could have been if she focused on soccer instead of splitting her developmental years amongst multiple sports?"
> 
> I assume US Soccer looks at a player like that whose ceiling was perhaps becoming the best player on the planet (but instead apparently topped out as squad depth for the best team on the planet), and thinks this is even more reason to implement the DA environment.


You can imagine all day.

Imagine if she got burned out.
Imagine if she learned some skill in Basketball that transpired to Soccer.

I just imagine a win.

I know.. John Lennon.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 28, 2019)

That was quick! Really quick!!!


----------



## Zdrone (Jun 28, 2019)

Damn, took me 32 minutes of fighting with fox sports and directv to get on and it’s kickball.  Lotta France pressure


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 28, 2019)

Why every team is not playing an offside trap is beyond me. The only way to get burned at this WC is if you don't have the speed on the backline. Since every goal is VAR reviewed the previous worry about the AR missing the call is no longer an issue. 

With that the US is lucky to be leading. Morgan still not 100% and they need more out of her. I think she's doing better then her previous game but I would sub her out. Are they playing an NFL style prevent defense because it sure feels like it.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 28, 2019)

they are playing a counter-attack game, now especially with the lead.  France hasn't got close to the net so why change.  France is slow with some of their decision-making and not used to US speed in closing on defense.  More of the same I expect for second half.  Still haven't seen a good combo goal from the US, but in the end it's just about getting the win.

Morgan will stay in -- she's doing better than vs. Spain but just average for now.


----------



## espola (Jun 28, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> Damn, took me 32 minutes of fighting with fox sports and directv to get on and it’s kickball.  Lotta France pressure


It's the hyper-advanced USA soccer style - direct with possession.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 28, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Can never pass up an opportunity to share your negative opinion about  DA can you?


You betcha - many keep supporting DA as the only and the best way when it is not.  I have always said there are many pathways and anyone of them can be effective and useful - so when I see something in a real life example that contradicts the propaganda I am curious and point it out.  I have also said if DA works for your DD and you are all happy I have no problem with that but when those on the DA side have to continue to criticize and demean other options as inadequate I am motivated to speak up.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

That battle between Diani and Dunn is epic.  O'hara is getting eaten up.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

I'm good with the 5-back that we are essentially playing.  Especially when they bring Cascarino in.


----------



## watfly (Jun 28, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That battle between Diani and Dunn is epic.  O'hara is getting eaten up.


I know some have been critical of Dunn since she is not a left back, but I think her effort has been impressive.

Please bring in Lloyd and Press.


----------



## espola (Jun 28, 2019)

Heath - best pass of the tournament so far.


----------



## watfly (Jun 28, 2019)

watfly said:


> Please bring in Lloyd and Press.


Nevermind.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 28, 2019)

Japan is pissed !!!! Same incident but no PK this time !


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 28, 2019)

watfly said:


> I know some have been critical of Dunn since she is not a left back, but I think her effort has been impressive.
> 
> Please bring in Lloyd and Press.


I blame the coach not the player out of position


----------



## Goforgoal (Jun 28, 2019)

watfly said:


> I know some have been critical of Dunn since she is not a left back, but I think her effort has been impressive.


Agreed. She's been better with her positioning and is having a great game defensively. She also got forward and set up what was almost a 3rd goal. Offside by a foot. She'll win some critics over with this performance, myself included.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 28, 2019)

USA comes through !!!! Great win !!! USSF better be getting the new pay checks ready !!!


----------



## watfly (Jun 28, 2019)

MVP's to me, Dunn, Ertz and to my surprise, Rapinoe.  Well done ladies.

How much more enjoyable was the game without VAR interruptions (except for one quick review)?.  Excellent reffing job.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 28, 2019)

oh canada said:


> If France loses Friday they are out of WC and the Olympics next year! Ooof. Talk about high stakes. As many have said, I think the homefield advantage may actually work against them. USA 2-1. 3-1 if Lloyd starts over Morgan


love it when i'm right 

congrats to Dunn and the USWNT.  she's the player of the game in my book.  glad that handball on O'Hara wasn't called...whew.  Should be smooth sailing from here.  Ladies will play with a lot of confidence.

Netherlands v Italy should be a great back/forth contest to watch.


----------



## MarkM (Jun 28, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> You betcha - many keep supporting DA as the only and the best way when it is not.  I have always said there are many pathways and anyone of them can be effective and useful - so when I see something in a real life example that contradicts the propaganda I am curious and point it out.  I have also said if DA works for your DD and you are all happy I have no problem with that but when those on the DA side have to continue to criticize and demean other options as inadequate I am motivated to speak up.


If you are so motivated to speak up, you could at least be accurate.  DA does not preclude kids from playing other sports, your club did.  Criticize DA for things it actually does wrong, not for things your club does wrong.  

At any rate, for the reasons offered by timmyh, it's a bad example.  If you have no idea whether McDonald would have been better or worse if she focused more on soccer (which you don't), it's irrelevant.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

oh canada said:


> love it when i'm right
> 
> congrats to Dunn and the USWNT.  she's the player of the game in my book.  glad that handball on O'Hara wasn't called...whew.  Should be smooth sailing from here.  Ladies will play with a lot of confidence.
> 
> Netherlands v Italy should be a great back/forth contest to watch.


Umm it doesn't get easier.  England is no joke.  I must say that I am happy though,.


----------



## timmyh (Jun 28, 2019)

watfly said:


> MVP's to me, Dunn, Ertz and to my surprise, Rapinoe.  Well done ladies.
> 
> How much more enjoyable was the game without VAR interruptions (except for one quick review)?.  Excellent reffing job.


Dahlkemper has hardly put a foot wrong all tourney.


----------



## timmyh (Jun 28, 2019)

MarkM said:


> If you are so motivated to speak up, you could at least be accurate.  DA does not preclude kids from playing other sports, your club did.  Criticize DA for things it actually does wrong, not for things your club does wrong.
> 
> At any rate, for the reasons offered by timmyh, it's a bad example.  If you have no idea whether McDonald would have been better or worse if she focused more on soccer (which you don't), it's irrelevant.


I think it is pretty self explanatory that the things that McDonald picked up during basketball that made her a better soccer player (which I believe to be true) aren't nearly as impactful as the things she would have learned to be a better soccer player if she had instead spent that time actually playing soccer. 

That said, my hunch is she wouldn't trade that multisport experience for being a slightly better soccer player. To each their own and fortunately there are pathways for everyone, depending on their goals for whatever maximizes their quality of life.


----------



## RocketFile (Jun 28, 2019)

Morgan solid game - drew foul leading to 1st goal, put on Heath for 2nd and put on Dunn for 3rd (that was not off side).

Love Lavelle but she looked shaky all game, lots of giveaways.

Naeher getting more confident.

Dunn solid scrambling defense with a handful in Diani.

Great team defense.


----------



## oh canada (Jun 28, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Umm it doesn't get easier.  England is no joke.  I must say that I am happy though,.


just a little easier


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 28, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> France is showing us a preview of the WWC.  We are a quarterfinalist at best.  Can we get a real coach?


You are so stupid.


----------



## End of the Line (Jun 28, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> The WNT lost its first game in almost two years, which is unacceptable. The WNT hasn't gotten smoked by France in a friendly leading up to the WWC since, well, the last WWC, and we all know how horribly that went.
> 
> In response to this affront, we should change all of the NCAA rules that currently stunt the professional soccer growth of student athletes by instead stunting their academic growth.  In fact, we should encourage more players to skip college completely and go straight pro because the vast sums of money available for women's players.  Living in the basement of a creepy Sky Blue fan rent free and making $15,000 a year is certainly a better idea than getting a college degree for most college women.  Or just go to Europe right out of HS.  It worked for one person, so it must be a good career choice for most.
> 
> ...


This person makes a lot of sense.  Losing a friendly should definitely result in immediate termination.


----------



## MarkM (Jun 28, 2019)

timmyh said:


> I think it is pretty self explanatory that the things that McDonald picked up during basketball that made her a better soccer player (which I believe to be true) aren't nearly as impactful as the things she would have learned to be a better soccer player if she had instead spent that time actually playing soccer.
> 
> That said, my hunch is she wouldn't trade that multisport experience for being a slightly better soccer player. To each their own and fortunately there are pathways for everyone, depending on their goals for whatever maximizes their quality of life.


You think she would trade being a starter in the WC (assuming a slightly better soccer player) for her JC basketball experience?  Maybe.  But I think that is a big maybe.


----------



## espola (Jun 28, 2019)

MarkM said:


> DA does not preclude kids from playing other sports, your club did.


I did not know that.  In fact, that is the exact opposite of what I have been told over the last 10 years.  "We'd love to let you play, but it's against DA policy".


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> You are so stupid.


You need to get that dick out of your ass.


----------



## MarkM (Jun 28, 2019)

espola said:


> I did not know that.  In fact, that is the exact opposite of what I have been told over the last 10 years.  "We'd love to let you play, but it's against DA policy".


GDA has only been around for two years - not ten.  You can't play soccer when in GDA, just like CIF precludes kids from playing club soccer during the HS soccer season.  But you can play other sports.  Some kids do play other sports and excel.  Let's post what is fact, and not what people told you.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 28, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> This person makes a lot of sense.  Losing a friendly should definitely result in immediate termination.


Hey douchebag.  You are so ill informed that it is clear that your kid (do you have a kid or is it just your "friend's" kid) doesn't play soccer.  Keep talking shit it continues to make you look like a drama queen.  You aren't on my level so kick fucking rocks.


----------



## Nonononono (Jun 28, 2019)




----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 28, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> You betcha - many keep supporting DA as the only and the best way when it is not.  I have always said there are many pathways and anyone of them can be effective and useful - so when I see something in a real life example that contradicts the propaganda I am curious and point it out.  I have also said if DA works for your DD and you are all happy I have no problem with that but when those on the DA side have to continue to criticize and demean other options as inadequate I am motivated to speak up.


And when if you ever seen or heard me bash any other pathway?


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 28, 2019)

oh canada said:


> they are playing a counter-attack game, now especially with the lead.  France hasn't got close to the net so why change.  France is slow with some of their decision-making and not used to US speed in closing on defense.  More of the same I expect for second half.  Still haven't seen a good combo goal from the US, but in the end it's just about getting the win.
> 
> Morgan will stay in -- she's doing better than vs. Spain but just average for now.


Heath to Rapinoe was a combination play sort of...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jun 28, 2019)

Morgan to Dunn to Heath also even though it was called back...


----------



## espola (Jun 28, 2019)

MarkM said:


> GDA has only been around for two years - not ten.  You can't play soccer when in GDA, just like CIF precludes kids from playing club soccer during the HS soccer season.  But you can play other sports.  Some kids do play other sports and excel.  Let's post what is fact, and not what people told you.


Boys side started in 2007 or 8.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 28, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> And when if you ever seen or heard me bash any other pathway?


And what makes you think I am talking about you?  There are many other posters here.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Japan is pissed !!!! Same incident but no PK this time !


No there was a distinction.  In Japan's case the hands were up and out, even if inadvertent.  The US case was close but the hands were down at the side.  Using the "natural silhouette" test the refs seem to be using to interpret "unnaturally bigger" it's the correct result.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 28, 2019)

MarkM said:


> If you are so motivated to speak up, you could at least be accurate.  DA does not preclude kids from playing other sports, your club did.  Criticize DA for things it actually does wrong, not for things your club does wrong.




One of the points of the DA is a consistent curriculum and structure for development.  There should not be different rules at different clubs if US Soccer is specifying a particular curriculum and developmental process.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 28, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> And what makes you think I am talking about you?  There are many other posters here.


Cause you’re responding directly to my post....



Soccer43 said:


> One of the points of the DA is a consistent curriculum and structure for development.  There should not be different rules at different clubs if US Soccer is specifying a particular curriculum and developmental process.


Many School districts teach the same curriculum but have different rules and may teach the curriculum in different ways but are still gauged by the same standard. 

For as much as you dislike DA, why do you give it free rent on such a large part of your mind?


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 28, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Cause you’re responding directly to my post....
> 
> 
> Many School districts teach the same curriculum but have different rules and may teach the curriculum in different ways but are still gauged by the same standard.
> ...


Because I am secretly obsessed with the DA and want to be a part of it


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You need to get that dick out of your ass.


Ouch!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2019)

DAILYWIRE.COM
*U.S. Women's Soccer Members Tell Fans' Employers: You're ‘Living Under A Rock’ If You Don't Know Our Game Is Important*





Photo by David Ramos—FIFA/FIFA via Getty Images 







By HANK BERRIEN 
June 28, 2019 
 317.7k views
Apparently unaware that their work doesn’t supersede the needs of business owners, two members of the U.S. national women’s soccer team wrote a note to their fans’ employers on Instagram, suggesting the employers give their employees the day off so the fans could watch the team’s game against France on Friday.







As The Daily Mail reported, Kelley O'Hara and Allie Long posted the excuse note on Instagram, starting by insultingly telling the employers that they were “living under a rock” if they weren’t aware of the importance of the women’s soccer team.

Dear Bosses & Supervisors: In case you're living under a rock, this Friday, June 28 is our World Cup quarterfinal versus France and it's gonna be a Big One! We kindly ask that you give every employee the day off so that they can eat a hearty lunch, get emotionally ready, bust out all their USA gear, and mentally prep for what will be an EPIC GAME! They will be back on MONDAY. MAYBE.


----------



## Nonononono (Jun 29, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> DAILYWIRE.COM
> *U.S. Women's Soccer Members Tell Fans' Employers: You're ‘Living Under A Rock’ If You Don't Know Our Game Is Important*
> 
> 
> ...


Please excuse this errant child’s attempt to interject politics into this thread. He’s normally confined to his parents’ basement.  Occasionally he wanders out to annoy the neighbors.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 29, 2019)

USA vs Netherlands.  UEFA should thank the US for solving their Olympic qualifying problem for them.  Although I am not an isolationist I will say that USA vs Europe is going to turn out fine for us if we can play like we did against France.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 29, 2019)

Both games today were excellent!


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 29, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Both games today were excellent!


Watched the replays. Germany’s  goal was sweet. 
Also, a shout out to The Junkyard Bar and Grill in O’side. Great atmosphere yesterday with all the teams, coaches, and US Soccer officials watching the USWNT.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 29, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> USA vs Netherlands.  UEFA should thank the US for solving their Olympic qualifying problem for them.  Although I am not an isolationist I will say that USA vs Europe is going to turn out fine for us if we can play like we did against France.


They both need to win one more game first. The Dutch women looked great in the second half.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Both games today were excellent!


Who do you like to win it all?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Both games today were excellent!


Who do you like to win it all?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jun 29, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Who do you like to win it all?


Zee Germans 
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=z+germans&view=detail&mid=DC22BCBA987FB6FB52E9DC22BCBA987FB6FB52E9&FORM=VIRE&PC=APPL


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2019)

Nonononono said:


> Please excuse this errant child’s attempt to interject politics into this thread. He’s normally confined to his parents’ basement.  Occasionally he wanders out to annoy the neighbors.


Not true, I cut out the controversial parts just so as not to hurt anyone’s feelings.
Pussy cat.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 29, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Who do you like to win it all?


I always want the USA to win.  I hope that our team plays well.  We will be facing Holland.  From the beginning of the tournament I had the winner of the US vs France playing the Dutch in the final.  I’m very happy that we beat France.  I really, really like our chances going forward.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 1, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I always want the USA to win.  I hope that our team plays well.  We will be facing Holland.  From the beginning of the tournament I had the winner of the US vs France playing the Dutch in the final.  I’m very happy that we beat France.  I really, really like our chances going forward.


From the beginning, you had the US losing in the quarterfinals at best, remember? As you may recall, I forwarded your comment about this very thing just last Friday, to which you responded with your homophobic and expletive-laced tirade.  Do you want me to also reference your prior posts on the 6/5 and 6/7 saying it would be France and Netherlands?

You're just a sad man whose self-esteem is dangerously dependent on your daughter's soccer ability.  For proof, look no further than your constant posts in which you claim to be a "big deal" because your daughter is allegedly a pretty good soccer player.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 1, 2019)

Excuse me while I get my popcorn and a comfy seat!!!!


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 1, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> From the beginning, you had the US losing in the quarterfinals at best, remember? As you may recall, I forwarded your comment about this very thing just last Friday, to which you responded with your homophobic and expletive-laced tirade.  Do you want me to also reference your prior posts on the 6/5 and 6/7 saying it would be France and Netherlands?
> 
> You're just a sad man whose self-esteem is dangerously dependent on your daughter's soccer ability.  For proof, look no further than your constant posts in which you claim to be a "big deal" because your daughter is allegedly a pretty good soccer player.


Wanting a team to win and predicting who you think will win is 2 different things. Should we just get on this forum an parrot your views?


----------



## outside! (Jul 1, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> because your daughter is allegedly a pretty good soccer player.


I have seen her play in person. She is the real deal.


----------



## Torros (Jul 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> I have seen her play in person. She is the real deal.


Real deal? What is the standard you are using? Is she hurt? Was she playing on the WNT?


----------



## outside! (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Real deal? What is the standard you are using? Is she hurt? Was she playing on the WNT?


I saw her play in person in a friendly against UNLV back when Mallory Pugh was still playing for UCLA. I have seen her play online a few times on the PAC12 network. She is an excellent center back at the upper end of D1 college play. This is just my opinion, but it is shared by many (including the UCLA coach). I have not seen her play against international competition.


----------



## Torros (Jul 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> I saw her play in person in a friendly against UNLV back when Mallory Pugh was still playing for UCLA. I have seen her play online a few times on the PAC12 network. She is an excellent center back at the upper end of D1 college play. This is just my opinion, but it is shared by many (including the UCLA coach). I have not seen her play against international competition.


Is she hurt?


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Real deal? What is the standard you are using? Is she hurt? Was she playing on the WNT?


So you have to be on the WNT to be the real deal? I guess USA only has 23 real deal players


----------



## Torros (Jul 1, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> So you have to be on the WNT to be the real deal? I guess USA only has 23 real deal players


If the coversation, and it is, is about the WNT then I want to know what the comparision is. Maybe you should try reading what I posted and not what you thought I posted. I'm still waiting for the OP reply to that particular question. If this player is the "real deal" as compared to the WNT then why is she not on the roster? If she is the "real deal" because she played really good against UNLV then I know what the OP frame of refrence is.


----------



## outside! (Jul 1, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> So you have to be on the WNT to be the real deal? I guess USA only has 23 real deal players


I was replying to EOL regarding a UCLA player whose abilities were questioned during a disagreement between EOL and MAP. This has nothing to do with the WNT, other than the fact EOL brought her into this thread.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> If the coversation, and it is, is about the WNT then I want to know what the comparision is. Maybe you should try reading what I posted and not what you thought I posted. I'm still waiting for the OP reply to that particular question. If this player is the "real deal" as compared to the WNT then why is she not on the roster? If she is the "real deal" because she played really good against UNLV then I know what the OP frame of refrence is.


if you read the thread Outside stating shes the real deal not an allegedly a pretty good player like end of line said. dont think he ever said she was a national team player. Please show me the quote of someone saying shes national team player or should be on the national team...


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> I was replying to EOL regarding a UCLA player whose abilities were questioned during a disagreement between EOL and MAP. This has nothing to do with the WNT, other than the fact EOL brought her into this thread.


I agree with you i was replying Torros who was making it a WNT thing


----------



## Torros (Jul 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> I was replying to EOL regarding a UCLA player whose abilities were questioned during a disagreement between EOL and MAP. This has nothing to do with the WNT, other than the fact EOL brought her into this thread.


Then what is the "real deal" comparsion to? Is that something used for an average player? An elite player? What is the line of comparison? You posted it so I'm just trying to figure out if she is an elite player or a player you saw go against UNLV and that's your only refrence.

I don't know any simpler way to put it.


----------



## outside! (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Then what is the "real deal" comparsion to? Is that something used for an average player? An elite player? What is the line of comparison? You posted it so I'm just trying to figure out if she is an elite player or a player you saw go against UNLV and that's your only refrence.
> 
> I don't know any simpler way to put it.





outside! said:


> I saw her play in person in a friendly against UNLV back when Mallory Pugh was still playing for UCLA. I have seen her play online a few times on the PAC12 network. She is an excellent center back at the upper end of D1 college play. This is just my opinion, but it is shared by many (including the UCLA coach). I have not seen her play against international competition.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Then what is the "real deal" comparsion to? Is that something used for an average player? An elite player? What is the line of comparison? You posted it so I'm just trying to figure out if she is an elite player or a player you saw go against UNLV and that's your only refrence.
> 
> I don't know any simpler way to put it.


Why don’t you watch her and form your own opinion.  Why don’t you see where she ends up in January.  I can tell you that if she were to play in the NWSL next season she would be one of the first 4 names off the board and she will end up signing with a top European club and will be an instant starter.

And yes she has been hurt the last two seasons yet has still played 6000 minutes and started 68 out of 68 games for a top 5 team.  She has played against several NWSL teams and been one of the best players on the field.

So I guess it depends upon your point of reference.  I’m pretty sure if your player had her resume and options you would feel pretty good about where your kid is sitting.  So whatever you are implying, pull up YouTube and watch her kick ass for yourself against the best players and teams.  Heck pull her up against Stanford and the reigning MAC Hermann winner and judge for yourself.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Is she hurt?


She has been the last two seasons yet started 47 games and played over 4000 minutes and graduated early with a 3.8 gpa.  Pretty impressive if you asked me.

What level does your kid play in and how many NWSL and European clubs are interested in signing her?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 1, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> From the beginning, you had the US losing in the quarterfinals at best, remember? As you may recall, I forwarded your comment about this very thing just last Friday, to which you responded with your homophobic and expletive-laced tirade.  Do you want me to also reference your prior posts on the 6/5 and 6/7 saying it would be France and Netherlands?
> 
> You're just a sad man whose self-esteem is dangerously dependent on your daughter's soccer ability.  For proof, look no further than your constant posts in which you claim to be a "big deal" because your daughter is allegedly a pretty good soccer player.


Were you dropped on your head as a kid?  Which of us was a D1 athlete?  I was 3 time all conference how about you?  Look you don’t know me or anything about me or my kid.  My self esteem isn’t tied up in my kid, or my nice house or beautiful and amazing wife.  I’m also not some pansy ass snowflake that is looking for a problem especially not with someone I can’t bitch slap.

Move on.  Pick a new fight.  I am super glad that the USA won and it happened because of great team defending.  Please don’t make me hurt your feelings any further Pennywise.


----------



## Torros (Jul 1, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> She has been the last two seasons yet started 47 games and played over 4000 minutes and graduated early with a 3.8 gpa.  Pretty impressive if you asked me.
> 
> What level does your kid play in and how many NWSL and European clubs are interested in signing her?


Best of luck to your daughter on her recovery. Hopefully she is not logging in too many minutes but I'm sure between her coaches and you that it is being watched.

Not sure why you think I'm implying anything. I've asked questions and was curious what the OP meant by  the "real deal".


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 1, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Were you dropped on your head as a kid?  Which of us was a D1 athlete?  I was 3 time all conference how about you?  Look you don’t know me or anything about me or my kid.  My self esteem isn’t tied up in my kid, or my nice house or beautiful and amazing wife.  I’m also not some pansy ass snowflake that is looking for a problem especially not with someone I can’t bitch slap.
> 
> Move on.  Pick a new fight.  I am super glad that the USA won and it happened because of great team defending.  Please don’t make me hurt your feelings any further Pennywise.


Even though I have EoftheL on ignore I can tell when your speaking to them.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Even though I have EoftheL on ignore I can tell when your speaking to them.


Really?  That's the way he talks to anybody who disagrees with him.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 1, 2019)

espola said:


> Really?  That's the way he talks to anybody who disagrees with him.


EoftheL goes beyond one who disagrees, which is why they are on my ignore.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> EoftheL goes beyond one who disagrees, which is why they are on my ignore.


MaP goes beyond EoftheL, but he is not on your ignore list?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 1, 2019)

espola said:


> MaP goes beyond EoftheL, but he is not on your ignore list?[/QUOTE





espola said:


> MaP goes beyond EoftheL, but he is not on your ignore list?


No and won’t be.


----------



## push_up (Jul 1, 2019)

Torros said:


> Then what is the "real deal" comparsion to? Is that something used for an average player? An elite player? What is the line of comparison? You posted it so I'm just trying to figure out if she is an elite player or a player you saw go against UNLV and that's your only refrence.
> 
> I don't know any simpler way to put it.


She chokes in big games.  She does not make decisions quick enough and is unable to solve pressure.  She is the main reason UCLA lost in the national championship game a few years ago and the reason they lost their last playoff game.  It will be the reason they lose again in 2019. Check out these games on youtube and you will see the truth.  MAP continuously overrates his daughter.  The majority of the soccer community knows better and laughs at him to his face.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2019)

push_up said:


> She chokes in big games.  She does not make decisions quick enough and is unable to solve pressure.  She is the main reason UCLA lost in the national championship game a few years ago and the reason they lost their last playoff game.  It will be the reason they lose again in 2019. Check out these games on youtube and you will see the truth.  MAP continuously overrates his daughter.  The majority of the soccer community knows better and laughs at him to his face.


I remember those games.  I was too polite to say anything at the time.  Is it still too soon?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 1, 2019)

.....cracks a HighLife and props up his feet....


----------



## ToonArmy (Jul 2, 2019)

Press in for Rapinoe!


----------



## watfly (Jul 2, 2019)

ToonArmy said:


> Press in for Rapinoe!


I wonder if its something other than tactical.


----------



## electrichead72 (Jul 2, 2019)

Press scores. 

Ellis wake up


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

England is scrappy...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

That was the quickest VAR review this WC.


----------



## bullsputbol (Jul 2, 2019)

BS offside.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)

I have a complaint about the team assignments - why is JP Dellacamera doing play by play?

I switched to the Spanish language broadcast.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)

bullsputbol said:


> BS offside.


Pretty obvious in the replay.  She was onside at the first pass forward, offside at the second.


----------



## electrichead72 (Jul 2, 2019)

It was tight and without VAR that goal would have stood.


----------



## electrichead72 (Jul 2, 2019)

So if you kick the player behind you, that's a foul now.

This VAR stuff is all over the place today.

Luckily the PK was saved.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)




----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)

espola said:


> I have a complaint about the team assignments - why is JP Dellacamera doing play by play?
> 
> I switched to the Spanish language broadcast.


Netherlands translates to Paises Bajos.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

bullsputbol said:


> BS offside.


I thought so at first but on the replay it was clear. For once VAR worked quickly and correctly.

Morgan stepped up her game. Props to her!

The Krieger sub scared me. Kept thinking about Bill Buckner..


----------



## foreveryoung (Jul 2, 2019)

Still not a fan of VAR. Or Morgan.


----------



## watfly (Jul 2, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> So if you kick the player behind you, that's a foul now.


I thought the attacker initiated the contact as well when she drew her foot back to shoot.  I can tell you from what I've read so far that we are in a very small minority.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

foreveryoung said:


> Still not a fan of VAR. Or Morgan.


Morgan played much better today. The only thing I didn't like were all here CR7 impersonations.

If Rose is hurt that is going to take away from some of the USAs danger.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

watfly said:


> I thought the attacker initiated the contact as well when she drew her foot back to shoot.  I can tell you from what I've read so far that we are in a very small minority.


I think since it was a natural motion that was impeded that that drew the foul. But since there was nothing to compare to what her natural motion is it became a subjective call. I think the fact that the goal pulled back on the offside call was so close that the CR might have been trying to give the call in Englands favor. Maybe not but just a thought.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 2, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> I think since it was a natural motion that was impeded that that drew the foul. But since there was nothing to compare to what her natural motion is it became a subjective call. I think the fact that the goal pulled back on the offside call was so close that the CR might have been trying to give the call in Englands favor. Maybe not but just a thought.


I was at the game and seated very close to this play.  Everyone in my section saw an English player clearly offsides seconds before the alleged infraction occurred.  Still scratching my head as to why the offsides flag didn’t go up first.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 2, 2019)

MacDre said:


> I was at the game and seated very close to this play.  Everyone in my section saw an English player clearly offsides seconds before the alleged infraction occurred.  Still scratching my head as to why the offsides flag didn’t go up first.


Wow.. so cool that you're there!


----------



## Small but Slow (Jul 2, 2019)

MacDre said:


> I was at the game and seated very close to this play.  Everyone in my section saw an English player clearly offsides seconds before the alleged infraction occurred.  Still scratching my head as to why the offsides flag didn’t go up first.





MacDre said:


> I was at the game and seated very close to this play.  Everyone in my section saw an English player clearly offsides seconds before the alleged infraction occurred.  Still scratching my head as to why the offsides flag didn’t go up first.


Absolute agree. There were two English players that were off, prior to the play in question. The foul in question should never have been considered. AR blew it and glad it didn't cost us.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)

Small but Slow said:


> Absolute agree. There were two English players that were off, prior to the play in question. The foul in question should never have been considered. AR blew it and glad it didn't cost us.


ARs have been instructed in this tournament to leave the flag down on close calls and let the play go until a natural stoppage at which time they can raise it and the VAR officials can make a call.  Raising the flag right away may induce the defenders to back off, thus leading to unrepairable situation if the player is judged by VAR not to be offside.


----------



## Small but Slow (Jul 2, 2019)

espola said:


> ARs have been instructed in this tournament to leave the flag down on close calls and let the play go until a natural stoppage at which time they can raise it and the VAR officials can make a call.  Raising the flag right away may induce the defenders to back off, thus leading to unrepairable situation if the player is judged by VAR not to be offside.


No close call at all with the offside mentioned. Two players were off by 2-3 yards. I understand your point in close situations though.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2019)

Small but Slow said:


> No close call at all with the offside mentioned. Two players were off by 2-3 yards. I understand your point in close situations though.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2019)




----------



## push_up (Jul 3, 2019)

The UCLA  kneelers and Collin Kaepernick's opposition to the Betsy Ross flag proves what Conservatives have said all along:

Their protests aren't about police brutality, they're about anti-Americanism and hating the flag.

Betsy Ross has nothing to do with police brutality

Shameful!


----------



## Justafan (Jul 3, 2019)

push_up said:


> The UCLA  kneelers and Collin Kaepernick's opposition to the Betsy Ross flag proves what Conservatives have said all along:
> 
> Their protests aren't about police brutality, they're about anti-Americanism and hating the flag.
> 
> ...


Ok, so screw them, but you are against police brutality then, correct?


----------



## push_up (Jul 3, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Ok, so screw them, but you are against police brutality then, correct?


I am against all police brutality unless it is against white people and/or conservative news reporters.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Ok, so screw them, but you are against police brutality then, correct?


What kind of question is that?


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 3, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Were you dropped on your head as a kid?  Which of us was a D1 athlete?  I was 3 time all conference how about you?  Look you don’t know me or anything about me or my kid.  My self esteem isn’t tied up in my kid, or my nice house or beautiful and amazing wife.  I’m also not some pansy ass snowflake that is looking for a problem especially not with someone I can’t bitch slap.
> 
> Move on.  Pick a new fight.  I am super glad that the USA won and it happened because of great team defending.  Please don’t make me hurt your feelings any further Pennywise.


Three time all-conference?  Wow, why didn't you say so earlier?  Clearly you must know what you're talking about every time you claim the US won't get out of the quarter finals, that France will be in the finals, and that Japan is so great that they lose to, well, just about everyone.

Your limited knowledge of men's soccer has very limited relevance to how the women's game is played.  You are just like most soccer morons who think you know what you're talking about merely because they played it longer than most of the other crappy American soccer players who played the sport because they were not athletic, skilled and intelligent enough to play better sports.  No one is impressed. I'm sure your house, your wife, and your daughter are all great.  Stop trying so hard to convince yourself of these things.


----------



## Torros (Jul 3, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Three time all-conference?  Wow, why didn't you say so earlier?  Clearly you must know what you're talking about every time you claim the US won't get out of the quarter finals, that France will be in the finals, and that Japan is so great that they lose to, well, just about everyone.
> 
> Your limited knowledge of men's soccer has very limited relevance to how the women's game is played.  You are just like most soccer morons who think you know what you're talking about merely because they played it longer than most of the other crappy American soccer players who played the sport because they were not athletic, skilled and intelligent enough to play better sports.  No one is impressed. I'm sure your house, your wife, and your daughter are all great.  Stop trying so hard to convince yourself of these things.


I did not know that MaP played D1 Soccer, I always thought it was Football. What years was he playing Soccer at UCLA?


----------



## Glen (Jul 3, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Three time all-conference?  Wow, why didn't you say so earlier?  Clearly you must know what you're talking about every time you claim the US won't get out of the quarter finals, that France will be in the finals, and that Japan is so great that they lose to, well, just about everyone.
> 
> Your limited knowledge of men's soccer has very limited relevance to how the women's game is played.  You are just like most soccer morons who think you know what you're talking about merely because they played it longer than most of the other crappy American soccer players who played the sport because they were not athletic, skilled and intelligent enough to play better sports.  No one is impressed. I'm sure your house, your wife, and your daughter are all great.  Stop trying so hard to convince yourself of these things.


Boy, god really smacked you something good with the stupid stick.  I now get why you are so angry.  Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 3, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Your limited knowledge of men's soccer has very limited relevance to how the women's game is played.  You are just like most soccer morons who think you know what you're talking about merely because they played it longer than most of the other crappy American soccer players who played the sport because they were not athletic, skilled and intelligent enough to play better sports.  No one is impressed. I'm sure your house, your wife, and your daughter are all great.  Stop trying so hard to convince yourself of these things.


It’s like the pot calling the kettle black!

Accept MAP actually knows what he is talking about.


----------



## Zdrone (Jul 3, 2019)

Ignoring the light banter going on between some of you, the Sweden, Netherlands game is pretty exciting


----------



## Zdrone (Jul 3, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> Ignoring the light banter going on between some of you, the Sweden, Netherlands game is pretty exciting


And I’m in love with Beerensteyn.  Her name at least


----------



## outside! (Jul 3, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> And I’m in love with Beerensteyn.  Her name at least


I plan to put some beer in a stein (or pint glass) a few times in the next few days.


----------



## gkrent (Jul 3, 2019)

I just LOVE the ignore feature, but this thread looks so strange because half the messages are missing for me


----------



## outside! (Jul 3, 2019)

gkrent said:


> I just LOVE the ignore feature, but this thread looks so strange because half the messages are missing for me


Some posters need to frequent the off topic thread more.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 3, 2019)

Early predictions:

US wins 2-0; could score more but goes into its defensive shape after going up 1-0 just like it has the past two games; Naeher only has to make 1 challenging save

Rapinoe starts to Press's dismay and wins the golden boot despite Nike wanting Morgan to win it; Horan starts instead of Mewis

Neymorg flops 4 times and turns ball over 5x in first half

NWSL gets new TV deal on back of the win and announces 8 city victory tour playing cupcake countries but drawing big crowds

Tobin Heath and Christen Press finally come out as dating girlfriends

MAP/EoL reveals himself as the same person with two handles -- had us all fooled


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 4, 2019)

So happy that Naeher got to define her legacy with that crucial save on the PK. It’s so tough to follow a superstar like Solo without being looked at like an imposter. Happy for her and her family but also for the US !!!


----------



## MacDre (Jul 4, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> Ignoring the light banter going on between some of you, the Sweden, Netherlands game is pretty exciting


The game was really exciting.  The Dutch were “turned up” the entire game.  I’m still pouting because there only serving non-alcoholic beer!


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 4, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Early predictions:
> 
> US wins 2-0; could score more but goes into its defensive shape after going up 1-0 just like it has the past two games; Naeher only has to make 1 challenging save
> 
> ...


I still don’t get why Press is not a starter. She is a Socal native from the Slammers...Scored more goals than any other player in history at Stanford...her record still stands for all time...comes from a very successful family...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 4, 2019)

Thats


MacDre said:


> ...there only serving non-alcoholic beer!


That’s just wrong !


----------



## Glen (Jul 4, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I still don’t get why Press is not a starter. She is a Socal native from the Slammers...Scored more goals than any other player in history at Stanford...her record still stands for all time...comes from a very successful family...


What does the success of her family have to do with anything?


----------



## electrichead72 (Jul 4, 2019)

It doesn't, but keeping her on the bench is a dumb move.

She's not loud and brash like Rapinoe, so Rapinoe gets the start.


----------



## espola (Jul 4, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> It doesn't, but keeping her on the bench is a dumb move.
> 
> She's not loud and brash like Rapinoe, so Rapinoe gets the start.


Is that what it is?  

Do you need a tissue?


----------



## Frank (Jul 4, 2019)

electrichead72 said:


> It doesn't, but keeping her on the bench is a dumb move.
> 
> She's not loud and brash like Rapinoe, so Rapinoe gets the start.


And she is a better player


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 4, 2019)

Glen said:


> What does the success of her family have to do with anything?


It doesn’t...good point but I just threw that in there... but at the same time she kind of defies stereotypes...


----------



## espola (Jul 4, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> It doesn’t...good point but I just threw that in there... but at the same time she kind of defies stereotypes...


Which stereotype?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2019)

espola said:


> Is that what it is?
> 
> Do you need a tissue?


Do you keep them with your diapers?


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 4, 2019)

Here is more analysis of the USWNT from FiveThirtyEight in case anyone is interested...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/womens-world-cup-usa-england/


----------



## oh canada (Jul 5, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I still don’t get why Press is not a starter. She is a Socal native from the Slammers...Scored more goals than any other player in history at Stanford...her record still stands for all time...comes from a very successful family...


it's because she doesn't connect (skill/touch/pass) as well as Rapinoe and Heath.  She's quick and not afraid to take on players on the dribble (why she is more successful than Pugh), but lacks the accuracy and touch that Rapinoe and Heath provide on the wings.  I think she is more of a 9 than 7 or 11.  But since Neymorg is firmly entrenched in the 9 spot, Press gets moved to the sides, hoping that Rapinoe opens her mouth off the field so that she can gain more time on it.



oh canada said:


> NWSL gets new TV deal on back of the win and


as predicted...  https://deadline.com/2019/07/nwsl-tv-deal-espn-womens-pro-soccer-1202642209/


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 7, 2019)

Win or lose this has been a great World Cup. As  a person who normally only watched the USA I watched almost every game this year and thoroughly enjoyed it.


----------



## MarkM (Jul 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> it's because she doesn't connect (skill/touch/pass) as well as Rapinoe and Heath.  She's quick and not afraid to take on players on the dribble (why she is more successful than Pugh), but lacks the accuracy and touch that Rapinoe and Heath provide on the wings.  I think she is more of a 9 than 7 or 11.  But since Neymorg is firmly entrenched in the 9 spot, Press gets moved to the sides, hoping that Rapinoe opens her mouth off the field so that she can gain more time on it.
> 
> 
> 
> as predicted...  https://deadline.com/2019/07/nwsl-tv-deal-espn-womens-pro-soccer-1202642209/


They haven't won.  NWSL got the deal regardless of whether they win.  The deal was inevitable, as the NWSL didn't have a current TV deal.  And it's really only for 10 games for one season - not much of deal.


----------



## MWN (Jul 7, 2019)

MarkM said:


> They haven't won.  NWSL got the deal regardless of whether they win.  The deal was inevitable, as the NWSL didn't have a current TV deal.  And it's really only for 10 games for one season - not much of deal.


I don't know the value (if any) of the deal, but the previous deal was just a promotion play.  I wish the NWSL the best of luck, but the reality is there simply is no money in any professional women's team sports.  WNBA, WNHL, NWSL are all subsidized novelties.  We watch the World Cup because of Nationalistic pride ... 'Merica.  We watch our kids play soccer because its our kids.  We watch professional soccer because it represents the highest level and is entertaining.  We don't watch the NWSL because its not very good soccer and that will not change.


----------



## Zdrone (Jul 7, 2019)

Props to the Netherlands keeper in the first half


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

Seems like this ref might be a'ginst us ??


----------



## Zdrone (Jul 7, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Seems like this ref might be a'ginst us ??


Just don’t say that to Brian Barlow...


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

Dutch defense cracks !


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

Zdrone said:


> Props to the Netherlands keeper in the first half


Player of the first half.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

That was nice ! Plus now they can't say the refs gave away the game w the PK.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> I googled "Makeaplay".  I got a site featuring New York City youth basketball coaches.  Is that you?


No response so far.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

A pass to the open runner would have been nice there.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

...and again.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> ...and again.


Agreed


----------



## oh canada (Jul 7, 2019)

MarkM said:


> They haven't won.  NWSL got the deal regardless of whether they win.  The deal was inevitable, as the NWSL didn't have a current TV deal.  And it's really only for 10 games for one season - not much of deal.


Ok, not impressed by that prediction.  How about these?


oh canada said:


> US wins 2-0





oh canada said:


> Neymorg flops 4 times and turns ball over 5x





oh canada said:


> Rapinoe starts to Press's dismay and wins the golden boot despite Nike wanting Morgan to win it;





oh canada said:


> Naeher only has to make 1 challenging save


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

Glad the USWNT triumphed but The Dutch did not play like one of the top teams in theWWC...


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

Golden boot -- Rapinoe, Morgan, and White (England ) all have 6 goals.  The first tiebreaker, so I have read, is assists.  Rapinoe and Morgan both have 3, White has 0.

What's the next tiebreaker?


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Glad the USWNT triumphed but The Dutch did not play like one of the top teams in theWWC...


There might be 11 or 12 women's national teams able to play in an interesting high-level manner right now.


----------



## shales1002 (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> Golden boot -- Rapinoe, Morgan, and White (England ) all have 6 goals.  The first tiebreaker, so I have read, is assists.  Rapinoe and Morgan both have 3, White has 0.
> 
> What's the next tiebreaker?


They said Rapinoe played fewer minutes than Morgan, so I guess minutes played was the tie breaker.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 7, 2019)

US Women helping to make woman's soccer a global phenomenon according to the NYPOST:

https://nypost.com/2019/07/07/womens-soccer-is-now-a-global-phenomenon-thanks-to-the-us-team/


----------



## oh canada (Jul 7, 2019)

France and England are both better than the Dutch.  Glad USA went through them too (and Spain) for the win.


espola said:


> Golden boot -- Rapinoe, Morgan, and White (England ) all have 6 goals.  The first tiebreaker, so I have read, is assists.  Rapinoe and Morgan both have 3, White has 0.
> 
> What's the next tiebreaker?


Goals other than against Thailand


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> France and England are both better than the Dutch.  Glad USA went through them too (and Spain) for the win.
> 
> Goals other than against Thailand


RPI-adjusted goals?


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Here is more analysis of the USWNT from FiveThirtyEight in case anyone is interested...
> 
> https://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/womens-world-cup-usa-england/


Comparison are odious (or even "odorous" as Shakespeare punned), but I can' t help but observe that one of the women on the current WWC-winning squad came out of the USSF-DA program, as opposed to the men whose DA program has been around long enough that all of that team should have spent some time being "developed".


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jul 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> France and England are both better than the Dutch.  Glad USA went through them too (and Spain) for the win.
> 
> Goals other than against Thailand


Minutes played (fewest)


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 7, 2019)

oh canada said:


> France and England are both better than the Dutch.  Glad USA went through them too (and Spain) for the win.
> 
> Goals other than against Thailand


In response to your post. Thought White from England deserved the golden boot. Also, love Lavelle. Beautiful soccer player.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 7, 2019)

https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1148012503231844353?s=20

Props to Kelly O'Hara.
Congrats to the USWNT on the World Cup win.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1148012503231844353?s=20


Looks like a lovely person.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> Looks like a lovely person.


Kelly O'Hara shows the kind of class and respect for her country we all appreciate.
I agree.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Kelly O'Hara shows the kind of class and respect for her country we all appreciate.
> I agree.


Who is the whore that is disrespectful to our country on foreign soil?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 7, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Who is the whore that is disrespectful to our country on foreign soil?


Paris Hilton?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 7, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Who is the whore that is disrespectful to our country on foreign soil?


I'm not going there.
Those who chose to show their political stripes and disrespect our country will have their own issues to deal with.
I just wanted to point out the fact that Kelly O'Hara is not about to leave our flag laying on the ground on the world stage.
I hope she doesn't get kicked off the team for it.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I'm not going there.
> Those who chose to show their political stripes and disrespect our country will have their own issues to deal with.
> I just wanted to point out the fact that Kelly O'Hara is not about to leave our flag laying on the ground on the world stage.
> I hope she doesn't get kicked off the team for it.


Would you like a tissue?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I'm not going there.


That’s my job.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I'm not going there.
> Those who chose to show their political stripes and disrespect our country will have their own issues to deal with.
> I just wanted to point out the fact that Kelly O'Hara is not about to leave our flag laying on the ground on the world stage.
> I hope she doesn't get kicked off the team for it.


I thought you guys didn’t like the mainstream media nitpicking DT, focusing on any little missteps while failing to point out the positives?  That’s exactly what you’re doing.  

Look at the video again, did she do it purposely to disrespect the flag or the USA?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> Would you like a tissue?


Oh boy, you need lithium.  And you wonder why posters question you, but you in turn say they are “being mean to you” or “telling lies”.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 7, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1148012503231844353?s=20
> 
> Props to Kelly O'Hara.
> Congrats to the USWNT on the World Cup win.


Sauerbrunn was a warrior out there.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Oh boy, you need lithium.  And you wonder why posters question you, but you in turn say they are “being mean to you” or “telling lies”.


I will assume you are trying to support PlaytheGame (or whatever Abdul calls himself this time around) in his campaign of incivility and/or dishonesty (pick one - or both) whenever someone points out what a 3-time-all-conference boor he has become.  Good luck with that.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 7, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Look at the video again, did she do it purposely to disrespect the flag or the USA?


It doesn’t matter -an American should never let the flag touch the ground for any reason.  I think they forgot they were there as representatives of the United States.  That’s the flag they have on the jersey and that’s who paid the bills for them to get there.  It is an honor to be selected to play for this Country.  If you don’t respect this Country and the citizens of this Country then don’t use this opportunity for your own self grandizement.


----------



## espola (Jul 7, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> It doesn’t matter -an American should never let the flag touch the ground for any reason.  I think they forgot they were there as representatives of the United States.  That’s the flag they have on the jersey and that’s who paid the bills for them to get there.  It is an honor to be selected to play for this Country.  If you don’t respect this Country and the citizens of this Country then don’t use this opportunity for your own self grandizement.


Some sort of religious thing?


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 7, 2019)

espola said:


> Some sort of religious thing?


Huh?  I am very patriotic but that is not my religion. Basic flag etiquette, anyone can look it up and if you are going to a foreign land to represent our Country it would be helpful to review .


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 8, 2019)




----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 8, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> US Women helping to make woman's soccer a global phenomenon according to the NYPOST:
> 
> https://nypost.com/2019/07/07/womens-soccer-is-now-a-global-phenomenon-thanks-to-the-us-team/


“They’re just watching soccer.”


Soccer43 said:


> It doesn’t matter -an American should never let the flag touch the ground for any reason.  I think they forgot they were there as representatives of the United States.  That’s the flag they have on the jersey and that’s who paid the bills for them to get there.  It is an honor to be selected to play for this Country.  If you don’t respect this Country and the citizens of this Country then don’t use this opportunity for your own self grandizement.


It could also be that they just didn’t know the etiquette, the same way you don’t know that the word is aggrandizement and not “grandizement”.
Why is calling people’s patriotism into question such a popular weapon? It’s so dishonest.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Huh?  I am very patriotic but that is not my religion. Basic flag etiquette, anyone can look it up and if you are going to a foreign land to represent our Country it would be helpful to review .


Etiquette?


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> It could also be that they just didn’t know the etiquette, the same way you don’t know that the word is aggrandizement and not “grandizement”..


You are correct- I apologize sincerely for my spelling error.  Where is that autocorrect?  Will they apologize for their error or do they just not care?  What MR may not remember is that she wasn’t representing Trump, she was representing all of us.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> Etiquette?


Yes, you can look it up

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 5050


No photoshop here --


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Yes, you can look it up
> 
> http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html


Who is usflag dot org?


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> You are correct- I apologize sincerely for my spelling error.  Where is that autocorrect?  Will they apologize for their error or do they just not care?  What MR may not remember is that she wasn’t representing Trump, she was representing all of us.


Well, technically, she was representing USSF, which is another story altogether.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> Who is usflag dot org?


There are many websites - all say the same thing.  Would you prefer this website or do you not know about the VFW?

https://www.vfw.org/community/flag-etiquette


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> Well, technically, she was representing USSF, which is another story altogether.


then why are they carrying around the US flag at all? Where is the USSF flag?


----------



## oh canada (Jul 8, 2019)

It's clear to me Allie Long just had a brain fart.  Caught up in the moment.  She should know better -- but anyone saying anything more about it being intentional etc is angling for click-bait.  US teams for any sport are always reminded of flag etiquette so I don't buy that she didn't know.  She just didn't think.  If you're going to choose to handle the flag, you need to be careful with it.  Social media will not let you get away with any mistake.

I expect she will write an apology, say she just got caught up in the moment, and learned a good lesson.  The media should then move on and let her enjoy the victory.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

oh canada said:


> It's clear to me Allie Long just had a brain fart.  Caught up in the moment.  She should know better -- but anyone saying anything more about it being intentional etc is angling for click-bait.  US teams for any sport are always reminded of flag etiquette so I don't buy that she didn't know.  She just didn't think.  If you're going to choose to handle the flag, you need to be careful with it.  Social media will not let you get away with any mistake.
> 
> I expect she will write an apology, say she just got caught up in the moment, and learned a good lesson.  The media should then move on and let her enjoy the victory.


'Need to be"?


----------



## oh canada (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> 'Need to be"?


In that role as a player for a US team, yes, "need" to be.  If Joe Public wants to burn the flag, he has that right per the US Supreme Court.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> I will assume you are trying to support PlaytheGame (or whatever Abdul calls himself this time around) in his campaign of incivility and/or dishonesty (pick one - or both) whenever someone points out what a 3-time-all-conference boor he has become.  Good luck with that.


E, I have always questioned you. And I recall your battles with JAP. I was also remarking about your comment to RF’s post.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> E, I have always questioned you. And I recall your battles with JAP. I was also remarking about your comment to RF’s post.


"Battles with JaP"?  I responded to threads in which JaP was acting like a bully and telling lies about people.  Shouldn't I have responded there?  Or just put my head down and bleated "Yes, sir"?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> "Battles with JaP"?  I responded to threads in which JaP was acting like a bully and telling lies about people.  Shouldn't I have responded there?  Or just put my head down and bleated "Yes, sir"?


Again, your going in a direction that just circles and spirals.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Again, your going in a direction that just circles and spirals.


That's funny.  I have always felt I was just going straight ahead.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Will they apologize for their error or do they just not care?  What MR may not remember is that she wasn’t representing Trump, she was representing all of us.





Soccer43 said:


> If you don’t respect this Country and the citizens of this Country then don’t use this opportunity for your own self grandizement.


You turned an honest mistake, a “brain fart,” into this.  I understand the etiquette, however, I don’t recall ever being formally taught that etiquette.  I asked my 15 year old dd’s and they have never been taught that etiquette.  I’m sure it’s second nature to a lot of families (e.g. military, government, law enforcement, etc.), but it can’t be taken for granted in large urban cities.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Justafan said:


> You turned an honest mistake, a “brain fart,” into this.  I understand the etiquette, however, I don’t recall ever being formally taught that etiquette.  I asked my 15 year old dd’s and they have never been taught that etiquette.  I’m sure it’s second nature to a lot of families (e.g. military, government, law enforcement, etc.), but it can’t be taken for granted in large urban cities.


I learned the rudiments of it in Boy Scouts.  In the Navy, they had a lot more rules which grew out of traditions harking back to the days of wooden ships and iron men.  The actual US Code on flag behavior has a lot of "shoulds" in it, and no penalty cited for not doing what one "should". To my critical eye, the most ignored section is letter i, although j comes pretty close.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

Justafan said:


> You turned an honest mistake, a “brain fart,” into this.  I understand the etiquette, however, I don’t recall ever being formally taught that etiquette.  I asked my 15 year old dd’s and they have never been taught that etiquette.  I’m sure it’s second nature to a lot of families (e.g. military, government, law enforcement, etc.), but it can’t be taken for granted in large urban cities.


It reflects a general demeanor that has been demonstrated over many weeks.  It is not just this one action but an accumulation of many statements and actions that come across as disrespectful.  The fact that it is not common knowledge is disappointing and that we can't expect people that live in large urban cities to know this?


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> It reflects a general demeanor that has been demonstrated over many weeks.  It is not just this one action but an accumulation of many statements and actions that come across as disrespectful.  The fact that it is not common knowledge is disappointing and that we can't expect people that live in large urban cities to know this?


So it's a religious thing.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> So it's a religious thing.


No it's a "legal thing" as you referenced in your link to Cornell law school in your previous post.   ------- (b)


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8


----------



## Justafan (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> It reflects a general demeanor that has been demonstrated over many weeks.  It is not just this one action but an accumulation of many statements and actions that come across as disrespectful.  The fact that it is not common knowledge is disappointing and that we can't expect people that live in large urban cities to know this?


I disagree, it’s only one player, and that’s Rapinoe.  The few others have only said they are not going to the White House.  They are putting their hands over their hearts and singing the national anthem.  I fail to see how this is disrespectful.  

If you want it to be common knowledge, then it should be formally taught.  I’m not sure who to blame there.  Not sure that it should amount to the level of disappointment you see it as.

You know in Clint Eastwood’s movie, “The Mule,” Clint (old midwestern white man) stops by the roadside to render assistance to an African American family with car trouble.  At one point he refers to them as negro or colored (can’t remember which) simply because he doesn’t know any better.  He is corrected by the African American male and it ends there.  No harm no foul, he learned something new and the world goes on.  I wouldn’t be “disappointed” because he didn’t know the correct term.  It’s all about intent.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> No it's a "legal thing" as you referenced in your link to Cornell law school in your previous post.   ------- (b)
> 
> 
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8


Not really, there is no punishment for any violations.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> No it's a "legal thing" as you referenced in your link to Cornell law school in your previous post.   ------- (b)
> 
> 
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8


Laws generally do more than just suggest behavior.


----------



## Glen (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> No it's a "legal thing" as you referenced in your link to Cornell law school in your previous post.   ------- (b)
> 
> 
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8


You realize that laws prohibiting flag desecration have been held unconstitutional?  The US Constitution is a "legal thing" too.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 8, 2019)

Glen said:


> You realize that laws prohibiting flag desecration have been held unconstitutional?  The US Constitution is a "legal thing" too.


Yes, you can burn it and whatever you want to it - I just tend to think that on this occasion I wouldn’t be doing any of that


----------



## Glen (Jul 8, 2019)

Soccer43 said:


> Yes, you can burn it and whatever you want to it - I just tend to think that on this occasion I wouldn’t be doing any of that


Me neither.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 8, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Who is the whore that is disrespectful to our country on foreign soil?


Ivanka Trump.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> I will assume you are trying to support PlaytheGame (or whatever Abdul calls himself this time around) in his campaign of incivility and/or dishonesty (pick one - or both) whenever someone points out what a 3-time-all-conference boor he has become.  Good luck with that.


Why are you still on this forum again?  Which of your 30 year old children are still playing soccer old man?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 8, 2019)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I'm not going there.
> Those who chose to show their political stripes and disrespect our country will have their own issues to deal with.
> I just wanted to point out the fact that Kelly O'Hara is not about to leave our flag laying on the ground on the world stage.
> I hope she doesn't get kicked off the team for it.


You voted for Trump knowing your own circumstances so you already went there.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 8, 2019)

Justafan said:


> You turned an honest mistake, a “brain fart,” into this.  I understand the etiquette, however, I don’t recall ever being formally taught that etiquette.  I asked my 15 year old dd’s and they have never been taught that etiquette.  I’m sure it’s second nature to a lot of families (e.g. military, government, law enforcement, etc.), but it can’t be taken for granted in large urban cities.


Urban US cities? Why not? Is that where the flag dropper, dragger and stomper is from, an urban city?
Every grown US citizen knows how to treat our flag.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> So it's a religious thing.



a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 8, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Ivanka Trump.


Let’s keep it on topic please Mr MAP.
If you want to talk politics then the off topic threads is the place to be.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Urban US cities? Why not? Is that where the flag dropper, dragger and stomper is from, an urban city?
> Every grown US citizen knows how to treat our flag.


The original Flag Code suggested that people taking the pledge of allegiance should salute it like this (as seen in a USA schoolroom in 1941)


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 8, 2019)

espola said:


> The original Flag Code suggested that people taking the pledge of allegiance should salute it like this (as seen in a USA schoolroom in 1941)


That explains your views.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2019)

JULY 9, 2019
*US National team: from: ‘for God and country’ to: self, political ideology and sexual proclivity*
By Earick Ward
The idiom, “for God and country” (Pro aris et focis) has been around for quite some time. Its premise speaks to those things that are of greater import than self. It speaks of honor and humility. Honor for God (the Creator of all things) and of country (a people who maintain national, or common interests).

Many military veterans past and present have fought under this banner (or, “for God, family and country”), as it provides a reminder to the soldier in the heat of battle that he is fighting, not for himself, but for his loved ones, for his country, and for the Lord God Almighty. 

Enter Megan Rapinoe, the Captain of the United States Women’s National Soccer Team. What could have been a victory for God, family, and country, was reduced to; self, her radical Leftist political ideology, and perhaps her sexual proclivity, lesbianism.







Megan Rapinoe, May 2019 hair color (photo credit: Jamie Smed)

With a daughter who played five years of AYSO, 10 years of competitive Club Soccer, 3 years of High School, and 4 years at the Collegiate level, I so much wanted to be able to root for our Women’s National Team. I am happy for the team. Happy for the victory, but disgusted by their behavior. 

The USWNT victory could (should) have been a victory for the US, and for US women’s (and girls’) soccer. Megan Rapinoe, through her selfish antics, her hatred for Donald Trump and the plurality of citizens who support our President, and her insistence that her being homosexual was integral to our teams’ success, ruined what otherwise might have been a great opportunity for the women’s game. 




One must wonder how many of the teams 23 or so players, and dozen or so coaches disagreed (vehemently) with Megan Rapinhoe in her vulgar spat with the President and her self-serving antics both on and off the field, but were cowed to silence for fear of reprisal, from Rapinhoe, from Jill Ellis (their gay coach), or from the USWNT sanctioning body? Would a player dare speak out in support of America, or our President? 

How many of us have demurred to speak out in the workplace, as Leftists spout their ideological garbage? 

Megan Rapinhoe is a prototypical Leftist. Advance the Left’s agenda, consequences be damned. Isolate and attack anyone who disagrees with their radical agenda and use their vast network of activist resources to target dissenters of Leftist dogma.

Sport is (was) honor. Honor for the game. Honor and respect for one’s teammates and club(country). Honor for one’s opponent. 

Suit up, join your mates, take the field, go hard from whistle to whistle, and play to win. At the end of the match, enjoy your triumph, but never, ever disrespect your opponent, the game or the name on the front of your jersey. 

The President took the high-road in their victory, by tweeting;

Congratulations to the U.S. Women’s Soccer Team on winning the World Cup! Great and exciting play. America is proud of you all!

The ball, as they say, is in the U.S. Women’s National Team court. Will they find humility in their win, or continue to serve themselves (and a radical Leftist agenda)? I’m not a betting man, but if I were, my money would be on the latter.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 9, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> JULY 9, 2019
> *US National team: from: ‘for God and country’ to: self, political ideology and sexual proclivity*
> By Earick Ward
> The idiom, “for God and country” (Pro aris et focis) has been around for quite some time. Its premise speaks to those things that are of greater import than self. It speaks of honor and humility. Honor for God (the Creator of all things) and of country (a people who maintain national, or common interests).
> ...


Heed your own advice and take you politics to the “Off Topic”....people with an agenda will always tell the story thru their filter.


----------



## MWN (Jul 9, 2019)

We have with the USWNT (and USSF) an organization that allows itself to be politicized.  Rather than adopting a political and religious neutral stance, it actively embraces ideologies that are controversial to some in the U.S.  For example, the USWNT promotes "Pride Month" with a special jersey, which at least one player (Jaelene Hinkle) has refused to wear due to religious reasons.  Given the fact that the coach is gay and many of the players are gay, it may seem a natural progression to embrace and advocate for social justice issues off the field, but when it is on the field (wearing special jerseys) it is polarizing to some.  If the USWNT was a private enterprise and not the national team, I could appreciate embracing whatever social justice issues they want as par for the course.  The Dodgers did this with Jackie Robinson and the world is better for it.  But the National Team should probably stay neutral and just let its players individually advocate for whatever issues they want.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 9, 2019)

MWN said:


> We have with the USWNT (and USSF) an organization that allows itself to be politicized.  Rather than adopting a political and religious neutral stance, it actively embraces ideologies that are controversial to some in the U.S.  For example, the USWNT promotes "Pride Month" with a special jersey, which at least one player (Jaelene Hinkle) has refused to wear due to religious reasons.  Given the fact that the coach is gay and many of the players are gay, it may seem a natural progression to embrace and advocate for social justice issues off the field, but when it is on the field (wearing special jerseys) it is polarizing to some.  If the USWNT was a private enterprise and not the national team, I could appreciate embracing whatever social justice issues they want as par for the course.  The Dodgers did this with Jackie Robinson and the world is better for it.  But the National Team should probably stay neutral and just let its players individually advocate for whatever issues they want.


I think Nike is driving this bus and US Soccer and most of the USWNT players are willing passengers.  To remain relevant for more than a couple months every four years, Nike (and the players) need a bigger story.  We have that now with #metoo and the womens movement (equal pay, etc.) and you can see that exhibited in every one of their commercials.  Ironically, one could argue that promoting women only through/with social justice causes is sexist.  Are they not good enough ballers to promote them with themes reflecting their talent, skill, achievement alone?

I'm always curious what those players on the team not sponsored by Nike (eg, Rose Lavelle - New Balance) think about Nike and its bully pulpit.


----------



## espola (Jul 9, 2019)

MWN said:


> We have with the USWNT (and USSF) an organization that allows itself to be politicized.  Rather than adopting a political and religious neutral stance, it actively embraces ideologies that are controversial to some in the U.S.  For example, the USWNT promotes "Pride Month" with a special jersey, which at least one player (Jaelene Hinkle) has refused to wear due to religious reasons.  Given the fact that the coach is gay and many of the players are gay, it may seem a natural progression to embrace and advocate for social justice issues off the field, but when it is on the field (wearing special jerseys) it is polarizing to some.  If the USWNT was a private enterprise and not the national team, I could appreciate embracing whatever social justice issues they want as par for the course.  The Dodgers did this with Jackie Robinson and the world is better for it.  But the National Team should probably stay neutral and just let its players individually advocate for whatever issues they want.


How much money does Congress appropriate for this "National Team"?


----------



## espola (Jul 9, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Heed your own advice and take you politics to the “Off Topic”....people with an agenda will always tell the story thru their filter.


Loser Joe can't help himself.  He regularly papers the off-topic area with the day's worst from American Thinker dot com, which carries two lies in its name alone.


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 9, 2019)

oh canada said:


> I think Nike is driving this bus and US Soccer and most of the USWNT players are willing passengers.  To remain relevant for more than a couple months every four years, Nike (and the players) need a bigger story.  We have that now with #metoo and the womens movement (equal pay, etc.) and you can see that exhibited in every one of their commercials.  Ironically, one could argue that promoting women only through/with social justice causes is sexist.  Are they not good enough ballers to promote them with themes reflecting their talent, skill, achievement alone?
> 
> I'm always curious what those players on the team not sponsored by Nike (eg, Rose Lavelle - New Balance) think about Nike and its bully pulpit.


New Balance has had a good year with Kawhi Leonard, Rose Lavelle, and Cori "Coco" Gauff.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 9, 2019)

oh canada said:


> I think Nike is driving this bus and US Soccer and most of the USWNT players are willing passengers.  To remain relevant for more than a couple months every four years, Nike (and the players) need a bigger story.  We have that now with #metoo and the womens movement (equal pay, etc.) and you can see that exhibited in every one of their commercials.  Ironically, one could argue that promoting women only through/with social justice causes is sexist.  Are they not good enough ballers to promote them with themes reflecting their talent, skill, achievement alone?
> 
> I'm always curious what those players on the team not sponsored by Nike (eg, Rose Lavelle - New Balance) think about Nike and its bully pulpit.


Wow, there is a lot to unpack between this and MWN's post.  First, to MWN's point, the WNT is a private entity that receives no taxpayer dollars.  So, by his logic, the WNT should be doing exactly what they are doing to promote civil rights.  If MWN were serious about neutrality in the government, he'd support eliminating the billions in taxpayer money that goes to benefit religious organizations, he'd support firing the congressional chaplain and also getting rid of "In God We Trust" on our money.  How does MWN feel about those things?  You're opposed to a private entity supporting civil rights but in favor of billions in taxpayer dollars supporting entities that actively oppose civil rights?

Second, if Nike is driving the bus as oh canada claims, this is just further proof that the WNT is driving USSF's main source of revenue (advertising dollars) and, as such, the women should be paid far more than the MNT.  In reality, the WNT is "driving the bus" because they are a marketable product for Nike, so Nike pays USSF a fortune for that benefit.  Despite this, USSF discriminates against the women by excluding its main source of revenue and profit from the math that it uses to determine whether the MNT or WNT is more "profitable".

Finally, you don't understand what sexist means.  Sexism is someone like yourself essentially conceding that women drive USSF's revenue but getting upset that they have the gall to demand even equal pay.  Sexist is someone like yourself claiming there is something wrong with WNT players supporting civil rights and equality.  Seriously, you're arguing that the WNT players should just shut the f**k up, agree to be paid less and forced to play with a P.O.S. bigot and second-tier defender Hinkle?  But to answer your question about what Rose Lavelle thinks about Nike's support of civil rights and equality, she agrees with it.  She is one of the players suing US Soccer for discrimination.

By the way, Ellis definitively proved you wrong.  Ha ha that she has been the architect of the most successful and dominant dynasty in the history of women's soccer while you and MAP constantly whined about how she's ruined the WNT, how they wouldn't get out of the quarters because of her, and how she caused the WNT to get passed by at least 4 other countries.  All the while your buddy Fleming ineffectively pranced around the pitch getting nothing done right up until Canada's early exit, and your other buddy Hinkle also continued her whining from her couch.  But even if Hinkle were an elite player (which she is not and has never been), cancerous bigots like her have no business "representing our country" - assuming for the sake of argument that the WNT weren't a private entity.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Wow, there is a lot to unpack between this and MWN's post.  First, to MWN's point, the WNT is a private entity that receives no taxpayer dollars.  So, by his logic, the WNT should be doing exactly what they are doing to promote civil rights.  If MWN were serious about neutrality in the government, he'd support eliminating the billions in taxpayer money that goes to benefit religious organizations, he'd support firing the congressional chaplain and also getting rid of "In God We Trust" on our money.  How does MWN feel about those things?  You're opposed to a private entity supporting civil rights but in favor of billions in taxpayer dollars supporting entities that actively oppose civil rights?
> 
> Second, if Nike is driving the bus as oh canada claims, this is just further proof that the WNT is driving USSF's main source of revenue (advertising dollars) and, as such, the women should be paid far more than the MNT.  In reality, the WNT is "driving the bus" because they are a marketable product for Nike, so Nike pays USSF a fortune for that benefit.  Despite this, USSF discriminates against the women by excluding its main source of revenue and profit from the math that it uses to determine whether the MNT or WNT is more "profitable".
> 
> ...


You are pretty funny and you are why true bigots and racist are listened to.  You cry foul about everything including the math.

You are mentally challenged if you can’t see the advantage of US government agencies remaining apolitical.  My daughter kneels during the national anthem but not when she is wearing the Stars and Stripes.  

Certain things are cut and dry unlike you who was clearly rode hard and put away wet.

Happy Tuesday!


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 9, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are pretty funny and you are why true bigots and racist are listened to.  You cry foul about everything including the math.
> 
> You are mentally challenged if you can’t see the advantage of US government agencies remaining apolitical.  My daughter kneels during the national anthem but not when she is wearing the Stars and Stripes.
> 
> ...


You've gone full Simisoccerfan.  You don't have anything coherent to say, so you resort to ad hominin attacks.  If you want to go that direction, that's cool.  You must be very proud that your daughter's fair weather patriotism starts where her fair weather morality ends.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 9, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Wow, there is a lot to unpack between this and MWN's post.  First, to MWN's point, the WNT is a private entity that receives no taxpayer dollars.  So, by his logic, the WNT should be doing exactly what they are doing to promote civil rights.  If MWN were serious about neutrality in the government, he'd support eliminating the billions in taxpayer money that goes to benefit religious organizations, he'd support firing the congressional chaplain and also getting rid of "In God We Trust" on our money.  How does MWN feel about those things?  You're opposed to a private entity supporting civil rights but in favor of billions in taxpayer dollars supporting entities that actively oppose civil rights?
> 
> Second, if Nike is driving the bus as oh canada claims, this is just further proof that the WNT is driving USSF's main source of revenue (advertising dollars) and, as such, the women should be paid far more than the MNT.  In reality, the WNT is "driving the bus" because they are a marketable product for Nike, so Nike pays USSF a fortune for that benefit.  Despite this, USSF discriminates against the women by excluding its main source of revenue and profit from the math that it uses to determine whether the MNT or WNT is more "profitable".
> 
> ...


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201701/6-reasons-people-lie-when-they-don-t-need


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 9, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> You've gone full Simisoccerfan.  You don't have anything coherent to say, so you resort to ad hominin attacks.  If you want to go that direction, that's cool.  You must be very proud that your daughter's fair weather patriotism starts where her fair weather morality ends.


And when people get fed up with your BS and call you on it, you resort to the “ad hominin” BS....you’ve lost every argument you’ve ever picked and it isn’t  gonna change here.

Who did you say your kid plays for again?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> And when people get fed up with your BS and call you on it, you resort to the “ad hominin” BS....you’ve lost every argument you’ve ever picked and it isn’t  gonna change here.
> 
> Who did you say your kid plays for again?


Let me guess. Since I have the ignore feature on a few posters. The ad hominid clue leads me to believe it has to be EOL.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 9, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Let me guess. Since I have the ignore feature on a few posters. The ad hominid clue leads me to believe it has to be EOL.


He’s that predictable


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2019)

The women’s contract is structured differently than the men’s, more conservative with guaranteed money even if they get hurt. That is the contract they negotiated for. The men’s is more result based with less guaranteed money. Not sure if I his publicity is doing them any good.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 9, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> He’s that predictable


Respectfully I assume EOL is a Ms. not a Mr.

Also notwithstanding EOL's  histrionics, there is a good point about the pay gap for the USWNT and the MNT.

Even rapper Snoop Dogg is chiming in for the USWNT:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2844796-snoop-dogg-backs-uswnt-in-equal-pay-dispute-pay-the-girls-what-theyre-worth


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## Multi Sport (Jul 9, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> The women’s contract is structured differently than the men’s, more conservative with guaranteed money even if they get hurt. That is the contract they negotiated for. The men’s is more result based with less guaranteed money. Not sure if I his publicity is doing them any good.


If the mens is based on results then most of those guys are probably broke.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 9, 2019)

From the Dogg Pound re USWNT:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzoSHnwHXrv/?utm_source=ig_embed

Snoop Dogg's post has racked up over 1.2 million views...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Respectfully I assume EOL is a Ms. not a Mr.
> 
> Also notwithstanding EOL's  histrionics, there is a good point about the pay gap for the USWNT and the MNT.
> 
> ...


If Nike is so entrenched with the womens team then why don't they make a deal directly with them? That way the women can negotiate as a team. If they did I would be curious to see if it would be equal pay for all the women or the stars of the team would want more.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> From the Dogg Pound re USWNT:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BzoSHnwHXrv/?utm_source=ig_embed
> 
> Snoop Dogg's post has racked up over 1.2 million views...


That’s good stuff.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 9, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> If Nike is so entrenched with the womens team then why don't they make a deal directly with them? That way the women can negotiate as a team. If they did I would be curious to see if it would be equal pay for all the women or the stars of the team would want more.


MutiS, I think the USSF negotiates on behalf of US Soccer and wraps WNT, MNT and MLS together into the advertising deals.

As the WNT is racking up wins the advertising deals are growning to record levels. The WNT asserts  that the advertising is growing due to their success. But bc the deal is bundled its not broken out which entity is allocated what amount of the advertising $$$s.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> From the Dogg Pound re USWNT:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BzoSHnwHXrv/?utm_source=ig_embed
> 
> Snoop Dogg's post has racked up over 1.2 million views...


Why is Snopp Dogg in Wisconsin? Thought he lived in Nevada?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> MutiS, I think the USSF negotiates on behalf of US Soccer and wraps WNT, MNT and MLS together into the advertising deals.


Probably right. But I wonder what would happen if they tried to negotiate directly with Nike... talk about a power play.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 9, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Why is Snopp Dogg in Wisconsin? Thought he lived in Nevada?


Checking in on his weed farm???


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Checking in on his weed farm???


Ha! Must be an indoor facility.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> That’s good stuff.


He’s an idiot.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> He’s an idiot.


This guy is an idiot.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 9, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Respectfully I assume EOL is a Ms. not a Mr.
> 
> Also notwithstanding EOL's  histrionics, there is a good point about the pay gap for the USWNT and the MNT.
> 
> ...


I agree with that....


----------



## Frank (Jul 10, 2019)

I agree the men should get an equitable pay raise. From what I have read they only get 9% of revenues and the women get 13%. It is unfair and I am protesting. Equal pay!!!!!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 10, 2019)

Frank said:


> I agree the men should get an equitable pay raise. From what I have read they only get 9% of revenues and the women get 13%. It is unfair and I am protesting. Equal pay!!!!!!


Quit using logic to prove your point, it is not fair.
What a male chauvinist pig you are.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 10, 2019)

Equal pay for women’s soccer will require equal revenue

JAZZ SHAW  Posted at 8:01 am on July 09, 2019 

Before getting to the topic at hand, allow me to join the rest of the chorus in congratulating the USA women’s soccer team on winning the world cup. I neither know nor care enough about the sport of soccer (for either gender) to comment on the performance, but I’m assured it was masterful. Also, I’m always ready to cheer for a U.S. team kicking the butts of any other nation’s teams in any sport. Well done, ladies.










Unfortunately, the celebrations were immediately embroiled in political disputes, and I’m not talking about the widely publicized spat between the President and one of the star players. No sooner had the team secured their victory than the cheers of the crowds shifted from “U.S.A!” to “EQUAL PAY!” And from that moment on, I would estimate that I saw as much coverage of the equal pay issue on cable news as I did of the back to back victories. 

It’s been established as fact that the female professional soccer players earn less than their male counterparts. And particularly now, because the American women’s team is producing more victories than the men’s team, this is seen as a call to action. Why shouldn’t the women be paid as much, if not more, than the men? (That’s an actual question I heard asked on CNN yesterday.) As A.G. Hamilton points out at National Review, it’s not a matter of how many goals you score. It’s a question of how much revenue the two leagues generate.

In reality, relative to the men’s World Cup, it was actually the women’s teams that were being paid a much larger share of what they brought in. While these articles noted that the U.S. women’s team brings in more money than the men’s team, they all managed to ignore the more-relevant disparity in revenue: The men’s tournament brought in over $6 billion in revenue in 2018, while the women’s tournament is estimated to only have brought in $131 million in 2019. The prize pools are taken from those revenue totals. In other words, the women’s prize pool was approximately 23 percent of their total revenue, while the men’s prize pool consisted of approximately 7 percent of revenue.

There are a number of moving parts in this puzzle and not all of them are equally relevant. For example, I think Hamilton goes a bit astray later in the article where he (I’m assuming “he” because Hamilton is anonymous) delves into the relative skill levels of the men’s and women’s teams, stating that the ladies wouldn’t do very well against the men. That’s not the point here.







What’s truly relevant is the fact that the women’s league pays out 23% of its total revenue into the prize pool. The men’s league, by comparison, puts just 7% of its revenue into the prize money. The reason for this is that the men’s league attracts a vastly larger global audience, hence bringing in far more ad revenue and endorsement deals. If you started paying the women’s league teams the same amount as the men’s teams in the interest of “fairness,” the women’s league would soon be bankrupt and there would be no games.

ADVERTISEMENT





We see similar arguments in other women’s sports. The most glaring example is probably found in basketball. There might legitimately be a gender pay gap there because the NBA pays roughly 50% of its revenue to the players while the WNBA pays out 25%. But at the same time, the total revenue of the NBA is a staggering 7.4 billion dollars while the WNBA brings in around 25 million. You’re never going to reach equal pay when facing that sort of revenue disparity.






There’s probably some confusion over this in the United States because, at least for the moment, there are more people here watching and talking about the women’s soccer team than the men’s. But you probably don’t need me to tell you why that is. Americans love a winning team and don’t display much enthusiasm for losers. And our men’s team, I’m sorry to say, generally falls into the loser’s category as compared to their competition on nearly every other continent. (Though I’m pretty sure we could kick the butts of any Antarctic teams out there.) 






But a string of victories by the American women isn’t going to do much to keep the rest of the world eagerly tuned in. Unless and until you can figure out a way to drive up revenue in the women’s league, you’re not going to solve the “gender pay gap” in professional soccer.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 10, 2019)

RUSRiUS ??? This is Jazz Shaw's argument ? It's sad that the writers at Hot Air have so little grasp of the data. 

In the poor analysis above from the blog Hot Air they completely ignore the advertising revenues paid to the USSF directly. The advertising revenue collected by the USSF has grown to an all-time record and it's not bc the men are winning folks! The WNT wants to get paid from that pool of revenue. It's critical to realize that the advertising revenue dwarfs the revenues earned by winning the WWC.

I like a decent argument. But the analysis above from the  pseudonym Jazz Shaw  is unfortunately deceiving and incompetent and to an embarrassing degree. 

A more valid argument would address the advertising revenues and how they should be allocated and accounted for by the USWNT, the USMNT and the MLS since the USSF bundles them together. Hot Air in this case is just that.


----------



## MWN (Jul 10, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Wow, there is a lot to unpack between this and MWN's post.  First, to MWN's point, the WNT is a private entity that receives no taxpayer dollars.  So, by his logic, the WNT should be doing exactly what they are doing to promote civil rights.  If MWN were serious about neutrality in the government, he'd support eliminating the billions in taxpayer money that goes to benefit religious organizations, he'd support firing the congressional chaplain and also getting rid of "In God We Trust" on our money.  How does MWN feel about those things?  You're opposed to a private entity supporting civil rights but in favor of billions in taxpayer dollars supporting entities that actively oppose civil rights?


@End of the Line.  No.  The WNT is not a private entity.  It is a team that is promoted by the United States Soccer Federation, which is a "Public Benefit Corporation" formed under New York law, and enjoys exemption from Federal Taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code because it *IS NOT PRIVATE*, but a *corporation formed for the benefit of the public*.  So, now we look at the unique "Federal" status the United State Soccer Federation enjoys.

The Federation is the national governing body for the sport of soccer in the United States, as provided by the Sports Act (as defined in Bylaw 109) and the United States Olympic Committee (“*USOC*”).  Note, the "Sports Act" refers to the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, chapter 2205 of title 36, United States Code. The USSF has been giving a federal monopoly over the sport to serve as the governing body.  With that unique Federal status, comes certain responsibilities to promote the sport and to refrain from activities that do not promote the sport.

The statement or belief that the Federation does not receive "federal" funding assumes that being exempt from taxation is not a federal benefit.  So, yes, the federal government does not give money directly to the Federation, but it also does not tax the Federation, which saves the federation roughly $25M to $30M per year.  All 501(c)(3) entities receive federal tax subsidies by not paying taxes, and in the case of the Federation, it receives grants and funding from the U.S. Olympic Committee, which is a "Federally Chartered" corporation under 36 US §220502.  Because the Federation is the National Governing Body for the sport of soccer and a PUBLIC CORPORATION, not private, it has the following duties as mandated by FEDERAL LAW:

For the sport that it governs, a national governing body shall—
(1) develop interest and participation throughout the United States and be responsible to the persons and amateur sports organizations it represents;
(2) minimize, through coordination with other amateur sports organizations, conflicts in the scheduling of all practices and competitions;
(3) keep amateur athletes informed of policy matters and reasonably reflect the views of the athletes in its policy decisions;
(4) disseminate and distribute to amateur athletes, coaches, trainers, managers, administrators, and officials in a timely manner the applicable rules and any changes to such rules of the national governing body, the corporation, the appropriate international sports federation, the International Olympic Committee, the International Paralympic Committee, and the Pan-American Sports Organization;
(5) allow an amateur athlete to compete in any international amateur athletic competition conducted by any amateur sports organization or person, unless the national governing body establishes that its denial is based on evidence that the organization or person conducting the competition does not meet the requirements stated in section 220525 of this title;
(6) provide equitable support and encouragement for participation by women where separate programs for male and female athletes are conducted on a national basis;
(7) encourage and support amateur athletic sports programs for individuals with disabilities and the participation of individuals with disabilities in amateur athletic activity, including, where feasible, the expansion of opportunities for meaningful participation by individuals with disabilities in programs of athletic competition for able-bodied individuals;
(8) provide and coordinate technical information on physical training, equipment design, coaching, and performance analysis; and
(9) encourage and support research, development, and dissemination of information in the areas of sports medicine and sports safety.​
In sum, because the Federation is not a for-profit private entity, but a public benefit corporation AND most importantly has special status as the National Governing Body for the sport of soccer under the Ted Stevens Act and therefore the ONLY organization allowed to represent the United States in the sport of soccer during the Olympics and other international competition, it must adhere to the principals of the Ted Stevens Act and remain apolitical.

To answer you other question, the rules relating to the 501(c)(3) corporations are just fine how they are.  I'm fine with churches, charities, sports programs, etc., receiving federal subsidies by being exempt from taxation.  I'm not fine with National Governing Bodies under the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act endorsing political or religious beliefs or non-beliefs and/or advocating for anything beyond what their charter calls for.


----------



## espola (Jul 10, 2019)

Frank said:


> I agree the men should get an equitable pay raise. From what I have read they only get 9% of revenues and the women get 13%. It is unfair and I am protesting. Equal pay!!!!!!


Read what where?  

WSJ reported this week that revenue attributed to WNT has caught up and exceeded that from MNT.


----------



## espola (Jul 10, 2019)

MWN said:


> @End of the Line.  No.  The WNT is not a private entity.  It is a team that is promoted by the United States Soccer Federation, which is a "Public Benefit Corporation" formed under New York law, and enjoys exemption from Federal Taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code because it *IS NOT PRIVATE*, but a *corporation formed for the benefit of the public*.  So, now we look at the unique "Federal" status the United State Soccer Federation enjoys.
> 
> The Federation is the national governing body for the sport of soccer in the United States, as provided by the Sports Act (as defined in Bylaw 109) and the United States Olympic Committee (“*USOC*”).  Note, the "Sports Act" refers to the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, chapter 2205 of title 36, United States Code. The USSF has been giving a federal monopoly over the sport to serve as the governing body.  With that unique Federal status, comes certain responsibilities to promote the sport and to refrain from activities that do not promote the sport.
> 
> ...


You are fine with churches that use their tax-exempt status to help funding when they preach exclusion and hate?


----------



## espola (Jul 10, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Equal pay for women’s soccer will require equal revenue
> 
> JAZZ SHAW  Posted at 8:01 am on July 09, 2019
> 
> ...



Who or what is "JAZZ SHAW"?


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 10, 2019)

*US Soccer president Carlos Cordeiro booed over equal pay *
By Rich Calder, Theo Wayt and Lia Eustachewich

July 10, 2019 | 1:14pm | 


https://nypost.com/2019/07/10/us-soccer-president-carlos-cordeiro-booed-over-equal-pay/


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2019)

espola said:


> Read what where?
> 
> WSJ reported this week that revenue attributed to WNT has caught up and exceeded that from MNT.



Nonsense. When viewed appropriately—based on how much money they generate—women actually make more than men.

As Dwight Jaynes pointed out four years ago after the U.S. women beat Japan to capture the World Cup in Vancouver, there is a big difference in the revenue available to pay the teams. The Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

The men still pull the World Cup money wagon. The men's World Cup in Russia generated over $6 billion in revenue, with the participating teams sharing $400 million, less than 7% of revenue. Meanwhile, the Women's World Cup is expected to earn $131 million for the full four-year cycle 2019-22 and dole out $30 million to the participating teams (23%).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/03/07/world-cup-soccer-pay-disparity-between-men-and-women-is-justified/#508154d36da4


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 10, 2019)

World vs US Frank. Two different sets of numbers.


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> World vs US Frank. Two different sets of numbers.


Ok. You are correct.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 10, 2019)

Frank said:


> Nonsense. When viewed appropriately—based on how much money they generate—women actually make more than men.
> 
> As Dwight Jaynes pointed out four years ago after the U.S. women beat Japan to capture the World Cup in Vancouver, there is a big difference in the revenue available to pay the teams. The Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.
> 
> ...


Maybe globally....but we are talking USNT, so i’ll leave you with the below...
Wall Street Journal report released on June 17 showed that the USWNT had made $50.8 million in revenue from 2015-2018, the men made $49.8....just saying   Here's a link to the WSJ story with just a tease:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600  Here is a story from Yahoo that you can actually read:  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/what-critics-get-wrong-about-the-us-womens-soccer-pay-debate-153139503.html  Would you pay someone more if they are producing less?


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## soccerobserver (Jul 10, 2019)

Sorry Frank, but your analysis is all wet.

It seems you have not read the USSF's own annual reports.  I have read them going back to 2009.

If you read just the 2018 Audited Financial Statements  you will get a clearer view of the pay issue.

Here is the link: https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/financial-information

You're welcome.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 10, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Sorry Frank, but your analysis is all wet.
> 
> It seems you have not read the USSF's own annual reports.  I have read them going back to 2009.
> 
> ...


There needs to be a "drop the mic" rating.


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## espola (Jul 10, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Sorry Frank, but your analysis is all wet.
> 
> It seems you have not read the USSF's own annual reports.  I have read them going back to 2009.
> 
> ...


Did you have a point to make here?


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## soccerobserver (Jul 10, 2019)

Espola...basically you can read the annual reports yourself and bypass the third party articles...even Stevie Wonder would see that the WNT has a valid argument...

Here is the executive summary of the article that was kindly posted by Kicker4L...
From the Wall Street Journal:

"To recap where things stand: The women’s team has generated more revenue since 2016 than the men’s team; the women still earn less than the men in base pay from U.S. Soccer. That is a separate issue from FIFA, which doles out less in World Cup payouts to the women than it does to the men. The U.S. women have won four World Cups, while the men’s team has won zero.

_"The U.S. Women’s National Team... has generated more revenue for U.S. Soccer than the men’s team has for three years running."_


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## Frank (Jul 10, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Sorry Frank, but your analysis is all wet.
> 
> It seems you have not read the USSF's own annual reports.  I have read them going back to 2009.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will read.


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## End of the Line (Jul 10, 2019)

MWN said:


> @End of the Line.  No.  The WNT is not a private entity.  It is a team that is promoted by the United States Soccer Federation, which is a "Public Benefit Corporation" formed under New York law, and enjoys exemption from Federal Taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code because it *IS NOT PRIVATE*, but a *corporation formed for the benefit of the public*.  So, now we look at the unique "Federal" status the United State Soccer Federation enjoys.
> 
> The Federation is the national governing body for the sport of soccer in the United States, as provided by the Sports Act (as defined in Bylaw 109) and the United States Olympic Committee (“*USOC*”).  Note, the "Sports Act" refers to the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, chapter 2205 of title 36, United States Code. The USSF has been giving a federal monopoly over the sport to serve as the governing body.  With that unique Federal status, comes certain responsibilities to promote the sport and to refrain from activities that do not promote the sport.
> 
> ...


It's hard to say whether you're genuinely ignorant or being intentionally misleading.  USSF is not a public benefit corporation.  Public benefit corporations are almost exclusively creations of state law, with a few federal exceptions  like Amtrak and the US Postal Service (more on that later).  In NY, where USSF is incorporated, public benefit corps must have a board that includes elected state officials (USSF obviously does not) which makes them political by their very nature.  Regardless, if USSF were a NY public benefit corp as you claim, it would be doing what is in the best interests of NY state overall.  And because NY doesn't hate gay folk at the same rate as significant portions of the OC and some of the more backward areas of SD, making players wear rainbow jerseys is something the majority of New Yorkers would probably approve.  But it would be none of your business since you aren't a NY resident.

In reality, USSF is a private non-profit incorporated in NY under NY state law.  It is a non-profit just like all the major political parties, which kinda hurts your argument that non-profits should remain political.  USSF is also a special kind of tax exempt non-profit (a 501(c)(3)), just like thousands of other companies that take strong stands on issues that you call "political" when you really mean "I don't like that I'm not getting what I want so I'll call the actions political, which sounds better than what I really mean, which is that I oppose civil rights".  Regardless, and somewhat ironically, 501(c)(3)s are almost always the best type of private business entity that can support civil rights, which you misrepresent as "politics".  Just a few examples of private, 501(c)(3) non-profits like USSF happen to be Planned Parenthood and the ACLU.  One of the main purposes for creating 501(c)(3)s in the first place is to support causes, just as USSF is doing.  The problem for you, which you apparently can't or won't formulate in your mind, is that you think religion deserves a more special place with its tax status and benefits than civil rights.  But too f**king bad, cuz those rainbow jerseys are going to keep coming.

I am fully aware of the Ted Stevens Act.  The Act created the US Olympic Committee which, in turn, designates certain private entities like USSF to oversee international and Olympic teams.  This is probably where you are confused (or intentionally misleading) because USOC is a federally chartered corp, not USSF.  USSF is just a private entity that USOC told "go for it" with respect to handling international soccer competitions.  As it relates to USSF, the Ted Stevens Act essentially just provides an anti-trust exemption so that it doesn't have to compete with a bunch of different entities fighting with each other over who is going to send teams to international sports competitions, and so that foreign private s**tbags like FIFA don't make that decision themselves.  USOC designating USSF to deal with international sports competitions is hardly different than the US Postal Service contracting with FedEx or UPS.  The Postal Service doesn't bar private companies from supporting gay pride because that would be wrong - and political  - if it tried to prevent private companies from supporting civil rights, just as USOC doesn't bar the private non-profits that send athletes to international competitions from supporting civil rights.  You see, you have it backwards.  If anything, your hope that USOC would intervene to prevent a private company from supporting civil rights would be "political".  But USOC staying out of the way by not actively punishing do-gooders like USSF for supporting civil rights is, well, the opposite of political.

There is also nothing in the Ted Stevens Act that says any of the private entities that USOC designates cannot support civil rights.  You should know since you quoted some of it and therefore presumably can read it all instead of the bits and pieces you cut-and-pasted above.  Notably, support for LGBT rights encourages public participation in sports (by showing support for a historically oppressed minority), which is an express mandate of USOC (36 USC 2205).  It also mandates USOC to promote a safe environment that is free from abuse, including the emotional abuse that Hinkle the homophobe and her friends seek to impose on the LGBT community (also 36 USC 2205).  Sure, USOC might decide that one of the private entities it designated has done things so abhorrent that it takes away the designation (like with gymnastics), but your problem is with USOC since USSF can do whatever the f**k it wants as a private entity, and supporting civil rights is not abhorrent in the least bit.  

This is a long way of saying you are wrong.  And you have lost.  Civil rights is here to stay, but  the religious tax exemption only has about 20-30 years left before enough of the mongrel horde crossing the border procreates enough citizen voters to eliminate the tax exemption for churches.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 10, 2019)

Frank , please consider the sponsorship deals, which have grown to be much larger than the national team revenues. 


*All US National Team Revenues:     *
2011= $33 million         2018= $30 million    -9.0% change

*Sponsorship Deals:*
2011= $17 million          2018= $49 million    + 188% change


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## tjsoccer (Jul 10, 2019)

Salary and earning potential is based on the market for your services.  Men soccer players have a market for their services and women really don't.  US Soccer pays women soccer player more than any one else. 

That said, I don't blame them for trying to get a bigger piece of the pie.  Go on strike if you think it will work.  Skipping the world cup will get people's attention.  When there really isn't a better market for your services, then you just need to do what you can to get more money.  The NBA, NFL, and MLB players do not have a better market, so they need to go on strike to get a larger share of the revenue.

But when they leverage the legitimate issue of unequal pay for women, it cheapen's the real fight.  In the workplace, gender is not an indicator of the effectiveness of an employee.  Men are not better executives or professionals.  But men get paid more.  In the sports world, its not the same thing at all....two completely different products.  For the USMNT team, they are paid more because a market exists and they don't need the USSF to make a living. 

Its great if they want to bring attention to the issue of pay inequality for women, but I don't think they should pretend that its what they are dealing with.


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## Dos Equis (Jul 10, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> USOC designating USSF to deal with international sports competitions is hardly different than the US Postal Service contracting with FedEx or UPS.


I find this analogy highly misleading.  As you point out, the USSF is a single purpose entity with an anti-trust exemption so it can be the sole team able to wear the US Flag and represent this country in international competitions.  Now if US soccer simply turned to the LA Galaxy and said, "Hey, go represent us this time in the World Cup", your analogy might be relevant.  That would mean other private groups would, in theory, be given the same opportunity, or at least there would be competition to earn that designation.

Are Civil Rights really here to stay, as you claim?  I think each player on this team should have the same rights -- to speak their mind anyway they see fit (even if that means choosing to kneel during our anthem, which I find distasteful).  They are not exempt from suffering repercussions personally and professional, but should not from an entity supported by our government through an exclusivity agreement making them our nations representatives.  And those rights also include no compelled speech, meaning if they do not want to wear something that is clearly advocating a viewpoint (a pink ribbon, a black armband, or even a rainbow number), that is their right.  And I have every right to disagree or agree with any one of them, and to do so publicly.  It seems to me a lot of people on this board who claim to support Civil Rights only do so when they agree with the viewpoint of those taking advantage of those rights.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 10, 2019)

Maddow to Rapinoe: Will You Run For President?

Posted at 3:15 pm on July 10, 2019 by Kira Davis

_ 


Did you ever in your life think you’d hear the name of one female soccer player as much as you have in the last two weeks?





Megan Rapinoe is everywhere – hero, traitor, icon, athlete…whatever your opinion of her there are few places one can escape her presence these days.

After winning the World Cup, Rapinoe has been making the media round, answering all the same questions about Trump and hate and Trump and politics and Trump and more Trump and also Trump. On Tuesday she appeared with fellow lesbian icon Rachel Maddow and Maddow had a very pointed question for the soccer superstar…

Would she consider running for president?

Maddow: Public Policy Polling literally did a poll today…

Rapinoe: *laughing* Oh no!

Maddow: …which is you versus Trump in a presidential contest and you beat him by a point.

Oh well, we all know how the public polling worked out for Maddow’s predictions last time!

Rapinoe laughed, saying her girlfriend had already warned her to slow her roll on this one. While she didn’t seem to rule out anything, she did go on to talk about the need to move beyond just words and take action.






_


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

WARNING!
Strong language and patriotism ahead, 
snowflakes beware.
*WATCH: Hockey Coach Tells Players to Respect the Anthem or ‘Get the F*ck Out’*





AP Photo/Rich Pedroncelli
DYLAN GWINN10 Jul 2019659
1:59
*A hockey coach in Connecticut gave his players a locker room talk in which he told them that they would stand for the American and Canadian anthems, or they could “get the f*ck out.”*

The video, posted to Facebook last month, shows minor league hockey coach Dan Krupinsky of the Hat Tricks making it clear to his players that “respect” for the anthems is expected.

“We’re not women’s soccer. We’re not the NFL,” Krupinsky said. “If there’s anybody here who is going to be disrespectful to either the American or the Canadian national anthem, grab your gear and get the f—- out now because you’ll never see the ice in this arena.”

“We don’t have that problem in hockey. We’re better than that, but there was no sense in wasting anybody’s time if that shit was going to happen.”

Watch:


When he’s not coaching hockey, Krupinsky is a police officer in Danbury, Connecticut.

Krupinsky told Todd Starnes of Fox News Radio, that he’s surprised by how much attention the video received.

“I thought it would get shared around town — maybe — but I never expected 6.5 million people,” he said.

“Coaches have a responsibility to keep their team squared away. We are fortunate to be in a place where we are a patriotic team and city.”

The issue of protesting the anthem during sporting events began in 2016 when former 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick first sat, then knelt during the playing of the national anthem. Though the NFL protests have almost totally vanished, the issue gained primacy again this summer U.S. Women’s National Team co-captain Megan Rapinoe protested the anthem during the World Cup.

In addition, Rapinoe has refused a potential White House visit and also declined to place her hand over her heart during the anthem at Team USA’s victory parade in New York on Wednesday.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

JULY 11, 2019
*Like Kaepernick, Megan Rapinoe brings dishonor to her sport and to America*
By Patricia McCarthy
Megan Rapinoe is so enamored of her own athletic prowess, she has somehow internalized the notion that we care what she thinks about the President, the anthem, the flag and the country. As Silvio Canto wrote here on Wednesday, she seems to think her superior skill at soccer gives her the right to insult all the Americans with political views that differ from hers. 

Rapinoe demonstrated an embarrassing lack of class that contaminates her entire team. She is a woman who never learned that a bit of grace is an infectious thing in a good way. This, of course, makes her a hero to the hate-America left that populates CNN and MSNBC 24/7. Her disdain for the country to them means she is presidential material! Just ask Rachel Maddow. 

The Left is now officially insane. This arrogant, disagreeable woman, Rapinoe, because she plays soccer well, thinks she has the right to trash everything and everyone she loathes. As Rush suggested, she is likely angling for a hefty contract with Nike or some other sports mega-company that will throw millions of dollars at her to spew her venom. It worked for failed NFL jerk Colin Kaepernick and Rapinoe checks off an additional box on the identity politics scale as a gay woman. 

New York gave the women's soccer team a ticker tape parade and a platform. 







Rapinoe addresses the victory parade crowd

(Fox Soccer screen grab via YouTube)

This victory is not equal to VE Day or akin to our astronauts' achievements in space. Not even close. MSNBC says Rapinoe is "filling the leadership void," that her place in the global spotlight " provides her an opportunity for a positive message." For heaven's sake; one would think she just managed to bring about world peace. Watching her team and its fans in Lyon chant "F*** Trump" on camera was obnoxious, a betrayal. These were Americans on foreign soil.


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## jojosoccer (Jul 11, 2019)

The final was over 5 days ago and I kind of already forgot about them.
I’m not thrilled with the team’s arrogant behavior and I quickly moved on. Congrats on winning 7 games with a stacked team. VAR calls to help US get lucky breaks to ensure the W....They really aren’t that big of a deal to me like I thought they would be.
More of a disappointment......along with the men’s team.....not looking forward to WC in Qatar either.....never going to a women's  League game, ever...I don’t even know the name of the women’s league....I’m definitely over it.


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## jojosoccer (Jul 11, 2019)

Oh, and the Victory tour fundraiser coming up....
Who is going to bring their young impressionable daughters to watch US crush their opponents for $75 a seat, to raise money for their cause? 
I wish the currucmstsnces were different and we were just celebrating the beautiful game.


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> The final was over 5 days ago and I kind of already forgot about them.
> I’m not thrilled with the team’s arrogant behavior and I quickly moved on. Congrats on winning 7 games with a stacked team. VAR calls to help US get lucky breaks to ensure the W....They really aren’t that big of a deal to me like I thought they would be.
> More of a disappointment......along with the men’s team.....not looking forward to WC in Qatar either.....never going to a women's  League game, ever...I don’t even know the name of the women’s league....I’m definitely over it.


Do you need a tissue?


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## jojosoccer (Jul 11, 2019)

Yes


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> The final was over 5 days ago and I kind of already forgot about them.
> I’m not thrilled with the team’s arrogant behavior and I quickly moved on. Congrats on winning 7 games with a stacked team. VAR calls to help US get lucky breaks to ensure the W....They really aren’t that big of a deal to me like I thought they would be.
> More of a disappointment......along with the men’s team.....not looking forward to WC in Qatar either.....never going to a women's  League game, ever...I don’t even know the name of the women’s league....I’m definitely over it.


Rapinoe 1 - 0 over Jojo.


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> Oh, and the Victory tour fundraiser coming up....
> Who is going to bring their young impressionable daughters to watch US crush their opponents for $75 a seat, to raise money for their cause?
> I wish the currucmstsnces were different and we were just celebrating the beautiful game.


Lots of people.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Lots of people.


Minus JoJo and Joe.  

Wonder how much Joe would have been shitting his pants mad during the 60’s and 70’s when Black Athletes were fighting for equality?


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## Multi Sport (Jul 11, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> Oh, and the Victory tour fundraiser coming up....
> Who is going to bring their young impressionable daughters to watch US crush their opponents for $75 a seat, to raise money for their cause?
> I wish the currucmstsnces were different and we were just celebrating the beautiful game.


So what happens if they lose a game during their victory tour? Do they change the name of the tour?


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> So what happens if they lose a game during their victory tour? Do they change the name of the tour?


They already have their victory.  Did you miss it?


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## jojosoccer (Jul 11, 2019)

Rapinoe 13 -0 Jojo
She’s kickin my butt!
Haha, I was at that 13-0 WC game and I enjoyed every minute of it.
It’s all the negative attention after they won that has become the let down.


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

jojosoccer said:


> Rapinoe 13 -0 Jojo
> She’s kickin my butt!
> Haha, I was at that 13-0 WC game and I enjoyed every minute of it.
> It’s all the negative attention after they won that has become the let down.


Please explain what you mean by "negative attention".


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## Blank95661 (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> JULY 11, 2019
> *Like Kaepernick, Megan Rapinoe brings dishonor to her sport and to America*
> By Patricia McCarthy
> Megan Rapinoe is so enamored of her own athletic prowess, she has somehow internalized the notion that we care what she thinks about the President, the anthem, the flag and the country. As Silvio Canto wrote here on Wednesday, she seems to think her superior skill at soccer gives her the right to insult all the Americans with political views that differ from hers.
> ...



@Sheriff Joe- This is the guy you support though, how is he patriotic...
Just before Veteran's Day, Trump skipped out on a ceremony commemorating the 100th anniversary of the end of World War I. He was scheduled to lay a wreath at the Aisne-Marne American cemetery, where more than 1,800 Americans, who fought alongside the French to repel Germans, were buried. But he cancelled, citing "scheduling and logistical difficulties caused by the weather," otherwise known as light rain. The sprinkling of water didn't keep any of the other world leaders from attending scheduled events, nor WH chief of staff John Kelly and Gen. Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, from going to the cemetery in his stead. Back in DC on Monday, he blew off Veteran's Day altogether, canceling another pre-scheduled visit, this time to Arlington Cemetery, a mere 12-minute drive from the White House.

Winston Churchill's grandson called Trump "pathetic" in near disbelief that he "couldn't even defy the weather to pay his respects to The Fallen." Ben Rhodes, a foreign policy advisor to President Barack Obama, dismissed the lame bad-weather excuse out of hand, tweeting that "there is always a rain option. Always." The MAGA crowd of course said nothing; they certainly won't miss the next rally. Just as they have when Trump, who dodged the Vietnam war by claiming "bone spurs," attacked three Gold Star families; called the late Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) "no war hero;" and lied about donating $1 million to veterans' nonprofits until media pressure forced him to make good on his pledge. Whether you ascribe to military heroism or not, it's unequivocally true that no one disrespects the troops more than Trump. He famously once said that he could "stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone" and "not lose any voters"—the same would hold true if the someone he shot was a decorated vet.


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Blank95661 said:


> @Sheriff Joe- This is the guy you support though, how is he patriotic...
> Just before Veteran's Day, Trump skipped out on a ceremony commemorating the 100th anniversary of the end of World War I. He was scheduled to lay a wreath at the Aisne-Marne American cemetery, where more than 1,800 Americans, who fought alongside the French to repel Germans, were buried. But he cancelled, citing "scheduling and logistical difficulties caused by the weather," otherwise known as light rain. The sprinkling of water didn't keep any of the other world leaders from attending scheduled events, nor WH chief of staff John Kelly and Gen. Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, from going to the cemetery in his stead. Back in DC on Monday, he blew off Veteran's Day altogether, canceling another pre-scheduled visit, this time to Arlington Cemetery, a mere 12-minute drive from the White House.
> 
> Winston Churchill's grandson called Trump "pathetic" in near disbelief that he "couldn't even defy the weather to pay his respects to The Fallen." Ben Rhodes, a foreign policy advisor to President Barack Obama, dismissed the lame bad-weather excuse out of hand, tweeting that "there is always a rain option. Always." The MAGA crowd of course said nothing; they certainly won't miss the next rally. Just as they have when Trump, who dodged the Vietnam war by claiming "bone spurs," attacked three Gold Star families; called the late Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) "no war hero;" and lied about donating $1 million to veterans' nonprofits until media pressure forced him to make good on his pledge. Whether you ascribe to military heroism or not, it's unequivocally true that no one disrespects the troops more than Trump. He famously once said that he could "stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone" and "not lose any voters"—the same would hold true if the someone he shot was a decorated vet.


Have you seen what "light rain" does to his hairdo?


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## Just A Dad (Jul 11, 2019)

The problem I have is all the focus is about equal pay and Rapinoe.  We are no longer talking about the games and how great some of the other players played. Does it really help womens soccer that we are no longer talking about the games and are younger players who should have become stars after the way they performed in the world cup.  And yes i am for US soccer paying the women more money


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> The problem I have is all the focus is about equal pay and Rapinoe.  We are no longer talking about the games and how great some of the other players played. Does it really help womens soccer that we are no longer talking about the games and are younger players who should have become stars after the way they performed in the world cup.  And yes i am for US soccer paying the women more money


It appears that you are in favor of the women getting "more money", but not "equal pay".  Did I misunderstand?


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> The problem I have is all the focus is about equal pay and Rapinoe.  We are no longer talking about the games and how great some of the other players played. Does it really help womens soccer that we are no longer talking about the games and are younger players who should have become stars after the way they performed in the world cup.  And yes i am for US soccer paying the women more money


We should be talking about Lavelle and how she could be the future.


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## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We should be talking about Lavelle and how she could be the future.


OK.  You start.


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## Multi Sport (Jul 11, 2019)

espola said:


> They already have their victory.  Did you miss it?


Did you come up with that response all by yourself or did you need help?


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## Just A Dad (Jul 11, 2019)

espola said:


> It appears that you are in favor of the women getting "more money", but not "equal pay".  Did I misunderstand?


I dont like to say equal pay because if the women bring in more money they should get a bonus and if the men do they should get a bonus. but yes base money should start out the same


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> The problem I have is all the focus is about equal pay and Rapinoe.  We are no longer talking about the games and how great some of the other players played. Does it really help womens soccer that we are no longer talking about the games and are younger players who should have become stars after the way they performed in the world cup.  And yes i am for US soccer paying the women more money


Huh? Does it help women’s soccer - is that a serious question? I’m sure all 23 would like to move right along to new topics ASAP but in the mean time we can thank and support them for fighting on behalf of all of our girls. Anyway the discussions are not mutually exclusive. 

Lastman here you go:


----------



## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> I dont like to say equal pay because if the women bring in more money they should get a bonus and if the men do they should get a bonus. but yes base money should start out the same


Bring in more money like prize money from a tournament?  Like selling broadcast rights?  Like profits from replica apparel sales (and other similar fan souvenirs)?


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## soccerobserver (Jul 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We should be talking about Lavelle and how she could be the future.


This was worth watching again...Lavelle's sweet goal vs Netherlands...


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## Just A Dad (Jul 11, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Huh? Does it help women’s soccer - is that a serious question? I’m sure all 23 would like to move right along to new topics ASAP but in the mean time we can thank and support them for fighting on behalf of all of our girls. Anyway the discussions are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Lastman here you go:


When I dont hear people talking about the games anymore yes i think it doesnt help womens soccer.


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> When I dont hear people talking about the games anymore yes i think it doesnt help womens soccer.


Any publicity is good publicity.  If it wasn’t for Rapinoe and the equal pay issue, we would have been done talking about the “games.”  That’s just the way it works.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 11, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> This was worth watching again...Lavelle's sweet goal vs Netherlands...


That goal was sweet!


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 11, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Huh? Does it help women’s soccer - is that a serious question? I’m sure all 23 would like to move right along to new topics ASAP but in the mean time we can thank and support them for fighting on behalf of all of our girls. Anyway the discussions are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Lastman here you go:


I’m assuming that was Lavelle many years ago.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’m assuming that was Lavelle many years ago.


 At age 11.  Pretty impressive control on all parts of her body for that age!


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 11, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> At age 11.  Pretty impressive control on all parts of her body for that age!


Exceptional skill.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 11, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Exceptional skill.


She’s my favorite. Has been since the first time I saw her play a few years ago. Maybe I have a vested interest in seeing those small technical girls succeed


----------



## Just A Dad (Jul 11, 2019)

Justafan said:


> Any publicity is good publicity.  If it wasn’t for Rapinoe and the equal pay issue, we would have been done talking about the “games.”  That’s just the way it works.


I hope thats not the case. If they cant keep people interested in the sport by the play on the field for a week and need other things to keep people interested then the game has bigger issues. I love women's soccer and dont believe thats the case but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 11, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> She’s my favorite. Has been since the first time I saw her play a few years ago. Maybe I have a vested interest in seeing those small technical girls succeed


Agree. Hope to see more players like her in the defense and forward line too.


----------



## Poconos (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Minus JoJo and Joe.
> 
> Wonder how much Joe would have been shitting his pants mad during the 60’s and 70’s when Black Athletes were fighting for equality?


wildly cheap shot


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 11, 2019)

@ MAP or others who know, what should the Netherand defenders have done in that scenario? Close in on Lavell earlier ? I never understand why the defenders backtrack like that...Seems like Lavell has excellent/brilliant body dynamics and was able to keep the defenders off balance as she attacked them...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 11, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> @ MAP or others who know, what should the Netherand defenders have done in that scenario? Close in on Lavell earlier ? I never understand why the defenders backtrack like that...Seems like Lavell has excellent/brilliant body dynamics and was able to keep the defenders off balance as she attacked them...


The defender has got to take away the far post for the GK and she should force her away from her good foot (Lavelle is SIGNIFICANTLY left footed).  The back door turn that the defender made is great for playing the post corner if you are a safety in football but not so good for stopping a shooter from taking a shot with their dominant foot.


----------



## El Clasico (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> I hope thats not the case. If they cant keep people interested in the sport by the play on the field for a week and need other things to keep people interested then the game has bigger issues. I love women's soccer and dont believe thats the case but maybe I'm wrong.


Unfortunately, you aren't wrong and what you see going on right now doesn't help. Rapinoe is allowing herself to be used to advance an agenda (mostly aligned with her own) at the expense of her team. I don't care what anybody's opinion is on politics, it is very sad that we aren't seeing real interviews and media attention on the TEAM, rather than on one player.  Last I checked, there were 11 a side and plenty of supporters on the bench who all deserve/earned some time in the spotlight.


----------



## MWN (Jul 11, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> It's hard to say whether you're genuinely ignorant or being intentionally misleading.  USSF is not a public benefit corporation.  Public benefit corporations are almost exclusively creations of state law, with a few federal exceptions  like Amtrak and the US Postal Service (more on that later).  In NY, where USSF is incorporated, public benefit corps must have a board that includes elected state officials (USSF obviously does not) which makes them political by their very nature.  Regardless, if USSF were a NY public benefit corp as you claim, it would be doing what is in the best interests of NY state overall.  And because NY doesn't hate gay folk at the same rate as significant portions of the OC and some of the more backward areas of SD, making players wear rainbow jerseys is something the majority of New Yorkers would probably approve.  But it would be none of your business since you aren't a NY resident.
> 
> In reality, USSF is a private non-profit incorporated in NY under NY state law.  It is a non-profit just like all the major political parties, which kinda hurts your argument that non-profits should remain political.  USSF is also a special kind of tax exempt non-profit (a 501(c)(3)), just like thousands of other companies that take strong stands on issues that you call "political" when you really mean "I don't like that I'm not getting what I want so I'll call the actions political, which sounds better than what I really mean, which is that I oppose civil rights".  Regardless, and somewhat ironically, 501(c)(3)s are almost always the best type of private business entity that can support civil rights, which you misrepresent as "politics".  Just a few examples of private, 501(c)(3) non-profits like USSF happen to be Planned Parenthood and the ACLU.  One of the main purposes for creating 501(c)(3)s in the first place is to support causes, just as USSF is doing.  The problem for you, which you apparently can't or won't formulate in your mind, is that you think religion deserves a more special place with its tax status and benefits than civil rights.  But too f**king bad, cuz those rainbow jerseys are going to keep coming.
> 
> ...


As a preliminary matter, you are mixing up my point of the Federation "should refrain..." from doing something to is "must not ..."  Whether the Federation can do something, is different than whether it should.  This is really the only point we disagree on.

I acknowledge that I used the term "public benefit corporation" imprecisely and that caused some confusion.  If the federation was incorporated in California (it is not), it would be a "public benefit corporation," as opposed to a mutual benefit corporation.  Under New York law (as Revised) the Federation is a Type A  Not-For-Profit-Corporation.  As a Type A corporation, under Section 201 of the Non-For-Profit Corporation Law.  The Federation is a "charitable" Type A corporation (the equivalent to a public benefit corporation under California law), which means its members receive no pecuniary benefit from its assets and revenues.

In the case of the Federation, on July 6, 2007, its Articles were Amended and Restated and it expressly acknowledged its "general purpose" was limited to those activities under the NY Not-For-Profit Law and Title 26, Section 501(c)(3), and the specific purposes were serve as governing body, serve as association member to FIFA and promote and develop the game of soccer.

The Federation is a private entity (as opposed to a public entity), but it expressly made an election to hold those assets in trust of its charitable public purpose.  In addition, by making at 501(c)(3) election it became a "public charity."  Consistent with its charitable purpose, Article 8 of the Federation's Articles states: 

_No substantial part of the activities of the Corporation shall be carrying on propaganda
or otherwise attempting to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided by Title
26, Section 501(h) of the United States Code or the corresponding provision of any
future United States Internal Revenue Law), or participating or distribution of statements
for any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office.
_​Ultimately, I don't think anybody has a problem with the individuals associated with the Federation promoting their own political or religious agendas.  The issue is should the federation engage in activities that are viewed as propaganda and/or offensive to those holding certain religious beliefs.  I say, no.  You say, yes.


----------



## Janie270 (Jul 11, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> Unfortunately, you aren't wrong and what you see going on right now doesn't help. Rapinoe is allowing herself to be used to advance an agenda (mostly aligned with her own) at the expense of her team. I don't care what anybody's opinion is on politics, it is very sad that we aren't seeing real interviews and media attention on the TEAM, rather than on one player.  Last I checked, there were 11 a side and plenty of supporters on the bench who all deserve/earned some time in the spotlight.


Well Alex Morgan won top female athlete at the ESPY's last night and the team won top team.  Rapinoe on the other hand won the Golden Boot and Best Player award and the President was just shockingly talking nasty about her so it's no surprise that people are talking about Rapinoe.  Me thinks that it's likely you don't agree with her politics which is why you are so bothered, but if anyone has a problem with her message which is that there is still social injustice in this country and the women deserve more compensation well that's on them.  And if you or anyone else doesn't think that this amazing group of women will help lead to more amazing players down the road for the US then I don't know what to tell you.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> wildly cheap shot


How so?


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## El Clasico (Jul 11, 2019)

Janie270 said:


> Well Alex Morgan won top female athlete at the ESPY's last night and the team won top team.  Rapinoe on the other hand won the Golden Boot and Best Player award and the President was just shockingly talking nasty about her so it's no surprise that people are talking about Rapinoe.  Me thinks that it's likely you don't agree with her politics which is why you are so bothered, but if anyone has a problem with her message which is that there is still social injustice in this country and the women deserve more compensation well that's on them.  And if you or anyone else doesn't think that this amazing group of women will help lead to more amazing players down the road for the US then I don't know what to tell you.


Are you 12? SMH


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## Poconos (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> How so?


by implying he is racist with no factual basis for doing so.  but you knew that.


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## Just A Dad (Jul 11, 2019)

Janie270 said:


> Well Alex Morgan won top female athlete at the ESPY's last night and the team won top team.  Rapinoe on the other hand won the Golden Boot and Best Player award and the President was just shockingly talking nasty about her so it's no surprise that people are talking about Rapinoe.  Me thinks that it's likely you don't agree with her politics which is why you are so bothered, but if anyone has a problem with her message which is that there is still social injustice in this country and the women deserve more compensation well that's on them.  And if you or anyone else doesn't think that this amazing group of women will help lead to more amazing players down the road for the US then I don't know what to tell you.


Do you think Rapinoe was the best player on the team and deserved best player? The story of the world cup for me was stars in the midfield (especially Levelle), how Dunn grew into her position and so many other great players and plays. unfortunately those stories are all ready over because they dont involve Rapinoe


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Minus JoJo and Joe.
> 
> Wonder how much Joe would have been shitting his pants mad during the 60’s and 70’s when Black Athletes were fighting for equality?


I am part African, dummy.
I grew up with the Owens family, idiot.
My daughters bestie of 10 years is black and I hang with the family, douche.
MAP is my brother from another mother and is in love with my wife, dickhead.


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 11, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> Do you think Rapinoe was the best player on the team and deserved best player? The story of the world cup for me was stars in the midfield (especially Levelle), how Dunn grew into her position and so many other great players and plays. unfortunately those stories are all ready over because they dont involve Rapinoe


I wonder what the media focus on tennis looked like in 1973 when Billie Jean King was spearheading the equal pay fight in tennis. Yet I don’t think anyone would say she hurt women’s tennis. 

I wish the media was providing more substantive analysis too but I think we have to blame our current culture and not Rapinoe for why it isn’t. 

Time to watch lots of NWSL.


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> Unfortunately, you aren't wrong and what you see going on right now doesn't help. Rapinoe is allowing herself to be used to advance an agenda (mostly aligned with her own) at the expense of her team. I don't care what anybody's opinion is on politics, it is very sad that we aren't seeing real interviews and media attention on the TEAM, rather than on one player.  Last I checked, there were 11 a side and plenty of supporters on the bench who all deserve/earned some time in the spotlight.


Oh yeah, like you would check in for an hour long interview with Morgan Brian.  Colin cowherd talks about this all the time, people always claim to want to see something (usually in its pure form), but the ratings ALWAYS show otherwise.  Interesting, controversial, sexy, good looking will always get the eyeballs.  I’m not saying it’s fair, but to think that we all would tune in for specials on ALL the players is disingenuous.


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am part African, dummy.
> I grew up with the Owens family, idiot.
> My daughters bestie of 10 years is black and I hang with the family, douche.
> MAP is my brother from another mother and is in love with my wife, dickhead.


AND?


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## Justafan (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am part African, dummy.
> I grew up with the Owens family, idiot.
> My daughters bestie of 10 years is black and I hang with the family, douche.
> MAP is my brother from another mother and is in love with my wife, dickhead.


I’m sorry but even if  that’s true, it doesn’t mean sh**%t!  You have a track record my friend.  You get all bent out of shape for African-American players taking a knee during the national anthem, so I think it is fair to say that you would throw a tantrum when two African-American track stars not only did not put their hands over their heart during the national anthem, but put two fists with black gloves in the air during the medal ceremony when the whole world was watching.  And I’m  not even getting into the whole Black Lives Matter issue.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 11, 2019)

Just trying to humanize thing a bit...we can all get along...this is link to an article about Rapinoe's brother who is serving time in prison...what a contrast...https://www.wcbi.com/who-is-megan-rapinoe039s-brother-brian/


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## MWN (Jul 11, 2019)

Justafan said:


> I’m sorry but even if  that’s true, it doesn’t mean sh**%t!  You have a track record my friend.  You get all bent out of shape for African-American players taking a knee during the national anthem, so I think it is fair to say that you would throw a tantrum when two African-American track stars not only did not put their hands over their heart during the national anthem, but put two fists with black gloves in the air during the medal ceremony when the whole world was watching.  And I’m  not even getting into the whole Black Lives Matter issue.


A number of members is this topic want to bring overt political messages into it.  Ultimately, as we see before our very eyes with insults being thrown here or there, it devolves.  Which is my ultimate point and why I believe our National Teams (USWNT, the US Hockey Team, and the US Curling team) should stay APolitical.

Thank you for bringing up the Smith/Carlos raised fist episode because that is an excellent example of athletes politicizing a sporting event/team that was supposed to be apolitical.  We now have the Olympic being used for political purposes, with this country boycotting and that country boycotting or pulling out because some other country did something so now they are butt hurt.

My hope is that we use international sports, whether the Olympics or FIFA or other competitions to bring athletes of all religions, ethnicity, creeds, sexes, orientations, etc., together in pure competition.  Prejudices and stereotypes are subversively challenged through competitive excellence and not through protests or over acts of propaganda.  Once we become apolitical or anti-religious then we loose entire subgroups who now refuse to be exposed to the overt message and will never receive the subversive message.

Sadly, the opportunity we had during the 1936 Olympics for Jessie Owens to embarrass Hitler and show the world ideas of white supremacy were invalid would never exist today, because we just can't stop ourselves from using sports in a political way.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 11, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Just trying to humanize thing a bit...we can all get along...this is link to an article about Rapinoe's brother who is serving time in prison...what a contrast...https://www.wcbi.com/who-is-megan-rapinoe039s-brother-brian/


She spoke about her brother when she did the Anderson Cooper interview.  He recently got out of jail according to her.  He also is the one who got her into playing soccer.


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## ChargerPride (Jul 11, 2019)

It sucks that we have to bring politics into this. We should just agree to disagree and move on. The problem is that if we don't agree with Rapinoe and her agenda, then we are bigots, racist and every other thing wrong with this nation. Reality check , just because you play good soccer, doesn't mean you should speak for this amazing team that accomplished a record setting history. Somehow Rapinoe will speak for the team( I think her team captain status is going to her head) Yet we look at the end results, yes the USWNT won, but it wasn't pretty. It was fairly obvious to me that we had the top overall athletes with an unparalleled bench who would be starters on all the other teams. I felt Spain deserved to beat the U.S., which basically means that the rest of the world is catching up. Japan did it before, the European teams showed that they are only a couple to few years away. So, while the focus should be on soccer. We are talking about politics. 

As for pay, it should be comparable by percentage of overall or proportional, if that makes sense. It shouldn't be equal because it is not equal. Success doesn't mean equal pay, my DD plays soccer at an Elite level, and I would love her to aspire to Messi/Ronaldo/Neymar type $. Men's soccer has been popular world wide for how long? It's grown over all that time to get to where we are now. Somehow just because the USWNT has been dominant for the past two decades, somehow they deserve to get paid equal, in a country where soccer isn't even in the top 6 sports. Example, lets not stop at soccer, lets do the same for all sports. Women's basketball, football, baseball, hockey. If it exists, just because they are women, we need to pay them the same, because that's the only way to be equal. That's not very smart, the demand for each sport is dependent on how the sport is supported.. Tv, advertising, sponsors, fans... All things that take time to generate a profit in order to sustain the sport. Just because you are female does not mean you earned or deserve equal pay. I would love it if it were a real. I need my DD to go pro, before they realize the error. Reality is that by forcing equal pay will only hurt the sport because sustaining a profitable sport has become secondary to player salaries. Who wants to own a team that makes more money than the owner, who wants to advertise and sponsor a team that can't afford a venue to house the sport, if the players are more concerned about making money. With more time to actually create the demand as has been the case for the top leagues that have laid the foundation to create a want and more over a need to watch. Then eventually you see what can be. To demand such equality with...out the proven record to sustain the growth..well I can see another failed league.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

Justafan said:


> AND?


And I am not addressing you ma’am.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

Justafan said:


> I’m sorry but even if  that’s true, it doesn’t mean sh**%t!  You have a track record my friend.  You get all bent out of shape for African-American players taking a knee during the national anthem, so I think it is fair to say that you would throw a tantrum when two African-American track stars not only did not put their hands over their heart during the national anthem, but put two fists with black gloves in the air during the medal ceremony when the whole world was watching.  And I’m  not even getting into the whole Black Lives Matter issue.


African American has nothing to do with it.
How did we even get into the race issue?
Someone must have been losing the argument and had to go to To familiar territory. 
Sad.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> by implying he is racist with no factual basis for doing so.  but you knew that.


That wasn’t my intent to imply he was/is a racist.  Just drawing a parallel to Athletes who fight for rights that are often counter to the current social institutions.

@Sheriff Joe - I apologize if it came across poorly.


----------



## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> That wasn’t my intent to imply he was/is a racist.  Just drawing a parallel to Athletes who fight for rights that are often counter to the current social institutions.
> 
> @Sheriff Joe - I apologize if it came across poorly.


Don't apologize.  He is a liar and a racist by his own admission.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am part African, dummy.
> I grew up with the Owens family, idiot.
> My daughters bestie of 10 years is black and I hang with the family, douche.
> MAP is my brother from another mother and is in love with my wife, dickhead.


Now that the name calling has begun I will be the first to apologize when I am in the wrong. 

In hind site, my post should have have a little more clarity in that history tends to paint a better picture of those who fight for what they feel are social injustices versus those who attack them mid plight. 

I did not in anyway mean to imply you were racist.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> African American has nothing to do with it.
> How did we even get into the race issue?
> Someone must have been losing the argument and had to go to To familiar territory.
> Sad.


Yah....cause I do it all the time, right!?!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Now that the name calling has begun I will be the first to apologize when I am in the wrong.
> 
> In hind site, my post should have have a little more clarity in that history tends to paint a better picture of those who fight for what they feel are social injustices versus those who attack them mid plight.
> 
> I did not in anyway mean to imply you were racist.


Thank you and we are all good.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Yah....cause I do it all the time, right!?!!


Now I am sorry for jumping to conclusions.


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## Emma (Jul 11, 2019)

The Federation is not taking a political stand. The Federation didn't tell these ladies if they had to sing or where to put their hands, they let the players choose.  That's apolitical.  Why are some underestimating the intelligence or the capabilities of the ladies on the team and say they are blindly following Rapinoe.  These ladies are well educated, hard working, and tough as ####.  They know what they are doing individually.  It's not easy to get 23 strong willed women on board. They are united for a common goal and they know how to get there.  Regardless of whether I support their position, I support them as a team and as individual human beings.  I support the fact that they understand they only have a short time on the platform and are trying to make the best of it - smart ladies.  Pink headbands and pink hair - breast cancer awareness!  May all our children, and us too, have the insight and strength to try and work towards a better future in a nonviolent manner. God Bless America and her great Soccer USWNT.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Now I am sorry for jumping to conclusions.


We good!


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## MarkM (Jul 11, 2019)

Emma said:


> The Federation is not taking a political stand. The Federation didn't tell these ladies if they had to sing or where to put their hands, they let the players choose.  That's apolitical.  Why are some underestimating the intelligence or the capabilities of the ladies on the team and say they are blindly following Rapinoe.  These ladies are well educated, hard working, and tough as ####.  They know what they are doing individually.  It's not easy to get 23 strong willed women on board. They are united for a common goal and they know how to get there.  Regardless of whether I support their position, I support them as a team and as individual human beings.  I support the fact that they understand they only have a short time on the platform and are trying to make the best of it - smart ladies.  Pink headbands and pink hair - breast cancer awareness!  May all our children, and us too, have the insight and strength to try and work towards a better future in a nonviolent manner. God Bless America and her great Soccer USWNT.


I think you need to address the rainbow jerseys and explain how that is not taking a political point of view.  I happen to agree with the political point of view, but that's not the point.  I agree this time, but what about next time.  

I don't think you are being honest with yourself.  If they were advocating views that you despised, there is no way you would be writing that.  Seriously, if one of the ladies was advocating anti-semitic, racists, or homophobic views, would you really be calling her smart to use US Soccer as a platform to do it?  I think not.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I think you need to address the rainbow jerseys and explain how that is not taking a political point of view.  I happen to agree with the political point of view, but that's not the point.  I agree this time, but what about next time.
> 
> I don't think you are being honest with yourself.  If they were advocating views that you despised, there is no way you would be writing that.  Seriously, if one of the ladies was advocating anti-semitic, racists, or homophobic views, would you really be calling her smart to use US Soccer as a platform to do it?  I think not.


I don't necessarily agree with the political point of view, but couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

All this is starting to make me sad now.

NEWS JULY 11, 2019
*US women's soccer player on video at NYC parade: 'Hide your kids, hide your wife, and lock your f***in' doors ... I'm comin' for all y'all b***hes'*
*'We got the key to the motherf***in' city'*


_





Image source: YouTube screenshot
DAVE URBANSKI

Megan Rapinoe — the biggest star of the U.S. women's soccer team — raised more than a few eyebrows by saying prior to the squad's World Cup win that she's "not going to the f***ing White House" to celebrate with President Donald Trump, but she's far from the only player on the team who drops f-bombs for public consumption.

Goalkeeper Ashlyn Harris has gained quite a bit of notoriety through her Instagram stories chronicling the team's off-the-field antics. SBNation called Harris' story of the post-World Cup locker room celebration "nothing short of phenomenal. So good, in fact, we decided to rank the best moments from her story because it was just that amazing."

The outlet noted moments during which Harris said, "You're f***ing welcome for this content, bitch!" and "This content's f***ing gold, bitch!" along with video of star Alex Morgan twerking — as well as Harris yelling for Rapinoe to "get her ass in the f***ing locker room."


Ashlyn Harris Instagram Stories // USWNT Parade of Champions + City Hall Ceremony // NYC // 7.10.19 youtu.be

U.S. Soccer on Thursday didn't immediately respond to TheBlaze's request for comment on the video.
_


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> All this is starting to make me sad now.
> 
> NEWS JULY 11, 2019
> *US women's soccer player on video at NYC parade: 'Hide your kids, hide your wife, and lock your f***in' doors ... I'm comin' for all y'all b***hes'*
> ...



That’s nothing compared to the things that I have heard and said in a college football locker room.  Were you ever an athlete?  I caught my 10 year old swearing while playing Fortnite with his friends.

Stop trying to act like people don’t talk like that.  It’s pretty tiresome and your agenda is transparent.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 11, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That’s nothing compared to the things that I have heard and said in a college football locker room.  Were you ever an athlete?  I caught my 10 year old swearing while playing Fortnite with his friends.
> 
> Stop trying to act like people don’t talk like that.  It’s pretty tiresome and your agenda is transparent.


I know people talk like that. Did you see the team on GMA with all the little fans in the audience?
Would you like them or your little kid hearing their language?
BTW, they are in a mutha fuckin parade not a fuckin loca room y’all.
How fucking embarrassing and why is she trying to sound black?
What agenda am I promoting?


----------



## espola (Jul 11, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I know people talk like that. Did you see the team on GMA with all the little fans in the audience?
> Would you like them or your little kid hearing their language?
> BTW, they are in a mutha fuckin parade not a fuckin loca room y’all.
> How fucking embarrassing and why is she trying to sound black?
> What agenda am I promoting?


Trumpism.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 12, 2019)

Just A Dad said:


> Do you think Rapinoe was the best player on the team and deserved best player? The story of the world cup for me was stars in the midfield (especially Levelle), how Dunn grew into her position and so many other great players and plays. unfortunately those stories are all ready over because they dont involve Rapinoe


Yes, Rapinoe was the MVP.  Ask England how difficult it is to make 3 PKs.  Lavelle was masterful in the Final but inconsistent throughout the tournament.  More attention should be given to Naeher's play.  While she didn't have many saves, there were several crucial stops that kept the US ahead.  And because she did, we don't hear a peep about Hope Solo.  Thank goodness.

If you choose to watch mass-hysteria-media then don't complain about the coverage.  By now you should know what you're going to get if you turn it on.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 12, 2019)

I know it’s the time and age of social media. And as overjoyed I’d be with winning a World Cup or as frustrated with closing the gaps on pay equity. But, I wonder how often individuals regret their posted videos, instagram posts, etc? My rule of thumb is to never take a picture with alcohol in my hand, to not post/record anything on a public forum like Facebook that can put you into a precarious position. Or post while inebriated on this site.


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## Dos Equis (Jul 12, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I know it’s the time and age of social media. And as overjoyed I’d be with winning a World Cup or as frustrated with closing the gaps on pay equity. But, I wonder how often individuals regret their posted videos, instagram posts, etc? My rule of thumb is to never take a picture with alcohol in my hand, to not post/record anything on a public forum like Facebook that can put you into a precarious position. Or post while inebriated on this site.


The safest rule of thumb -- assume everything you ever write (private, public, social media post, email, text) will one day be printed on the front page of the local newspaper for everyone you know to read.


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> The safest rule of thumb -- assume everything you ever write (private, public, social media post, email, text) will one day be printed on the front page of the local newspaper for everyone you know to read.


With your real name attached to it.

My rule of thumb is not to post anything you wouldn't want your mother to read.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> With your real name attached to it.
> 
> My rule of thumb is not to post anything you wouldn't want your mother to read.


Unless yo' momma is mutha f'in Ashlyn Harris biyatch!


----------



## oh canada (Jul 12, 2019)

safe to say she won't be making any promo videos for Hulu.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 12, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> The safest rule of thumb -- assume everything you ever write (private, public, social media post, email, text) will one day be printed on the front page of the local newspaper for everyone you know to read.


True, so true. Thank goodness for online handles.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 12, 2019)

I find it interesting that when Carlos Cordeiro, President of the USSF, was being booed, Rapinoe stood up and praised and endorsed  him...Rapinoe said of Cordiero:"I think he's with us...I think he's on the right side of things"...so it sounds like the USWNT is making serious progress which is both well deserved and great to hear.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 12, 2019)

Sport is fascinating to me because it is both a lens to view our society through, a mirror which reflects our ideas of who we think we are, and at times, the ultimate meritocracy in action.  I've had to learn the hard way not to idolize my favorite athletes (musicians, artists, leaders, or anyone else for that matter) and to separate my admiration of their feats of greatness from assumptions about who they are as people.  Sometimes the athletes you cheer for, because they wear a certain uniform or because they happen to have been born in a certain geography close to you, are not worthy of your admiration beyond what they do between the lines.  At other times, you form a negative opinion about an athlete because of something they did or said publicly and decide to root against them with all the vitriol you can muster... only to find out later that they are in fact quite decent people who lead positive lives and have more in common with you than the ones you cheered for.   Time and time again, when I meet someone who I've only previously been exposed to through television or social media or sound bites and highlight reels, I am reminded that you never really know them, so it is wise to with hold harsh judgement or lavish praise.  In the end, all you can do is admire the results of their athletic prowess, their art and their performances for what they are, nothing more and nothing less.  Megan Rapinoe has demonstrated her mastery of her sport and I admire that.  The USWNT has been a sight to behold in terms of their competitive excellence despite the rising quality of women's soccer in the rest of the world.  If I agree with their stances on any social or political views, I shouldn't grant them any more admiration for it, for I only know them as athletes on my TV screen.  So that should not automatically grant them some sort of significance beyond the pitch.  If I disagree with their views or public behavior or am turned off by their vulgarity, I'm not going to let that taint my enjoyment of their on-field product, because I've not walked in their shoes, and I don't know what demons they've battled, and I wasn't there.  People who think highly of me have not seen me at my worst.  The people who judge me at my worst have no idea what I've survived to be here.  So, knowing how many challenges I've had in life as a white heterosexual male who grew up with great parents and enough money for food and shelter, I will just assume that most everyone else I've met in life has had to deal with at least as much and probably worse than I have, and respect the fact that I simply can't know.  All I  know definitively about any of these strangers on the national team is what they do on the pitch and I am grateful for their artistry.


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Mystery Train said:


> Sport is fascinating to me because it is both a lens to view our society through, a mirror which reflects our ideas of who we think we are, and at times, the ultimate meritocracy in action.  I've had to learn the hard way not to idolize my favorite athletes (musicians, artists, leaders, or anyone else for that matter) and to separate my admiration of their feats of greatness from assumptions about who they are as people.  Sometimes the athletes you cheer for, because they wear a certain uniform or because they happen to have been born in a certain geography close to you, are not worthy of your admiration beyond what they do between the lines.  At other times, you form a negative opinion about an athlete because of something they did or said publicly and decide to root against them with all the vitriol you can muster... only to find out later that they are in fact quite decent people who lead positive lives and have more in common with you than the ones you cheered for.   Time and time again, when I meet someone who I've only previously been exposed to through television or social media or sound bites and highlight reels, I am reminded that you never really know them, so it is wise to with hold harsh judgement or lavish praise.  In the end, all you can do is admire the results of their athletic prowess, their art and their performances for what they are, nothing more and nothing less.  Megan Rapinoe has demonstrated her mastery of her sport and I admire that.  The USWNT has been a sight to behold in terms of their competitive excellence despite the rising quality of women's soccer in the rest of the world.  If I agree with their stances on any social or political views, I shouldn't grant them any more admiration for it, for I only know them as athletes on my TV screen.  So that should not automatically grant them some sort of significance beyond the pitch.  If I disagree with their views or public behavior or am turned off by their vulgarity, I'm not going to let that taint my enjoyment of their on-field product, because I've not walked in their shoes, and I don't know what demons they've battled, and I wasn't there.  People who think highly of me have not seen me at my worst.  The people who judge me at my worst have no idea what I've survived to be here.  So, knowing how many challenges I've had in life as a white heterosexual male who grew up with great parents and enough money for food and shelter, I will just assume that most everyone else I've met in life has had to deal with at least as much and probably worse than I have, and respect the fact that I simply can't know.  All I  know definitively about any of these strangers on the national team is what they do on the pitch and I am grateful for their artistry.


And then Jim Bouton wrote Ball Four.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> And then Jim Bouton wrote Ball Four.


I haven't read it and was too young to remember anything about it when it was released.  Can you elaborate on the connection?


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Mystery Train said:


> I haven't read it and was too young to remember anything about it when it was released.  Can you elaborate on the connection?


He exposed the secret life of baseball players off the field.  His second book, describing his experiences after Ball Four was published was titled "I'm Glad You Didn't Take It Personally".


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> Don't apologize.  He is a liar and a racist by his own admission.


Says the forum "liar".


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Says the forum "liar".


You already convinced me that you are just trolling today.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 12, 2019)

My 26 and 24 year old boys don’t talk like that, at least that I have heard, they know better. To this day the still say it “the F-word”. Now 16 year old daughter has let it out in front on me from time to time. That’s the good thing about having boys, you can more easily “lay hands” on them.


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My 26 and 24 year old boys don’t talk like that, at least that I have heard, they know better. To this day the still say it “the F-word”. Now 16 year old daughter has let it out in front on me from time to time. That’s the good thing about having boys, you can more easily “lay hands” on them.


Really?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> Really?


What has you confused?


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What has you confused?


I'm not confused.  You are exactly the person I thought you are for a long time now.


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My 26 and 24 year old boys don’t talk like that, at least that I have heard, they know better. To this day the still say it “the F-word”. Now 16 year old daughter has let it out in front on me from time to time. That’s the good thing about having boys, you can more easily “lay hands” on them.


How did you explain to your daughter that "grab'em by the pussy" is acceptable language from your favored Presidential candidate?


----------



## whatithink (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> How did you explain to your daughter that "grab'em by the pussy" is acceptable language from your favored Presidential candidate?


maybe it correlates to "more easily “lay hands” on them" for the boys


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> How did you explain to your daughter that "grab'em by the pussy" is acceptable language from your favored Presidential candidate?


Why would I do that?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 12, 2019)

whatithink said:


> maybe it correlates to "more easily “lay hands” on them" for the boys


Can you please clarify.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 12, 2019)

espola said:


> How did you explain to your daughter that "grab'em by the pussy" is acceptable language from your favored Presidential candidate?


Or " I did not have sexual relations with that women" from one of your favorite Presidents. But we all know that you're perfect E. Kinda like George Washington.. you never tell a lie. 

Now what part of my post is sarcasm and what is not. I bet you know. I bet everyone knows.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine. His sister played on the WNT, won a few medals with them. Too bad you don't ride otherwise I would invite you along when we head out on our next pedal adventure, if anything just to see your expression when your lack of knowledge is exposed when it comes to the WNT. 

You may think I have something against you personally but I don't. I just have something against liars in general.  

Enjoy your weekend...


----------



## espola (Jul 12, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Or " I did not have sexual relations with that women" from one of your favorite Presidents. But we all know that you're perfect E. Kinda like George Washington.. you never tell a lie.
> 
> Now what part of my post is sarcasm and what is not. I bet you know. I bet everyone knows.
> 
> ...


I never voted for either Clinton.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 12, 2019)

For those who are interested, former NFL lineman Mike Golic has a sports talk show. He recently did a piece on the USWNT pay issue. I think it might help some see the issue without having to read dense articles...Here is the link :


----------



## Dof3 (Jul 12, 2019)

The Golic discussion, and nearly all of the other coverage I have seen on this point, is leaving out an important element of the analysis.  Let me start by saying that I think the USWNT is great and I think they have surely outperformed their contract and deserve a raise.  I note contract because they have one and I have yet to hear that US Soccer is not paying them in accordance with their existing contract, but that is not the point that I think is being left out.  If NFL players can renegotiate their existing contracts, why can't soccer players, right?

The real point is that they elected security over maximum revenue, and that choice does and should have real consequences.  Just as it does in any other profession.  If I am commission only salesperson, then I expect my maximum income would be higher than base salary plus commission, right?  Who would ever take commission only if that were not the case?  Here, assuming 20 games per season, the men and women are paid the same if both teams lose all their games - essentially the base line compensation for the men equals the base salary for the women.  The men are bonus only (I expect they chose that because they have well developed alternative sources of income through MLS, the overseas clubs, etc. and don't therefore need the consistent security of a national team salary).  The women elected a base salary for consistent, regular income for exactly the opposite reasons (no well developed alternative source of income through a still-fledgling professional league, etc.).   Ok, so if the women's maximum earnings are 89% of the men's maximum earnings, it does not seem quite so egregious or sexist when one considers that the women themselves opted for the security of base salary as a result of the relative underperformance of their other professional options.  Why should that not also come with a lower maximum compensation level?

Although the public opinion is already in their favor, their legal case is not so easy.  Hence the maximum pressure campaign in the media on US Soccer as part of the ongoing mediation.

I would like to see them get a raise.  I enjoy watching them play as much as any other athletes.  But they are not telling the full story or taking full ownership of the choices they made in structuring their contract.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 12, 2019)

Personally I think that US Soccer should invest more in the NWSL that they had a hand in creating so that more players could have a livable wage instead of all of it going to a small group that doesn’t necessarily need it.

I’m sorry but if more players had a coach comfortable salary less players would leave the game before they reached their peak and the USWNT would definitely be better.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 13, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> The Golic discussion, and nearly all of the other coverage I have seen on this point, is leaving out an important element of the analysis.  Let me start by saying that I think the USWNT is great and I think they have surely outperformed their contract and deserve a raise.  I note contract because they have one and I have yet to hear that US Soccer is not paying them in accordance with their existing contract, but that is not the point that I think is being left out.  If NFL players can renegotiate their existing contracts, why can't soccer players, right?
> 
> The real point is that they elected security over maximum revenue, and that choice does and should have real consequences.  Just as it does in any other profession.  If I am commission only salesperson, then I expect my maximum income would be higher than base salary plus commission, right?  Who would ever take commission only if that were not the case?  Here, assuming 20 games per season, the men and women are paid the same if both teams lose all their games - essentially the base line compensation for the men equals the base salary for the women.  The men are bonus only (I expect they chose that because they have well developed alternative sources of income through MLS, the overseas clubs, etc. and don't therefore need the consistent security of a national team salary).  The women elected a base salary for consistent, regular income for exactly the opposite reasons (no well developed alternative source of income through a still-fledgling professional league, etc.).   Ok, so if the women's maximum earnings are 89% of the men's maximum earnings, it does not seem quite so egregious or sexist when one considers that the women themselves opted for the security of base salary as a result of the relative underperformance of their other professional options.  Why should that not also come with a lower maximum compensation level?
> 
> ...


@DO3 I like a lot of what you say but I think you and most people are still omitting a big part of the story and analysis- namely the extraordinary growth of sponsorship deals for the USSF. While the USSF game revenues have not grown much, the sponsorship deals have grown 200% + in the last 5 years or so. Rough numbers. The USWNT justifiability wants to capture some of the financial  upside they helped create.

For perspective, the sponsorships used to be equivalent to 50% of the game revenues. Now they have grown to be 150% of the game revenues. That’s a huge change in the economics for the USSF!

It’s like the cast of Friends. They staged a work slowdown/stoppage to renegotiate  their TV contracts after their TV show became a huge hit. This is no different IMHO.

The gender pay gap is how it’s being sold. But there is a lot more to it when you look a little deeper.


----------



## Dof3 (Jul 13, 2019)

@soccerobserver I agree with that point and that it is no different than a football player holding out to renegotiate.  But there is a term to those contracts. And they have the opportunity to renegotiate when that term ends.  I doubt the USWNT would be receptive to having their base salary cut during the term of their contract if they were underperforming expectations.  A question for me is whether they get paid if they are dropped from the team for the balance of that year.  I don’t know the answer to that.  In football, contacts are not guaranteed and ownership can get out of its contract by cutting an underperforming player (other than signing bonuses or other guaranteed dollars).  I think that matters.  If ownership can get out of a bad contract, then a player should be able to hold out and renegotiate.  If the USWNT base salary is guaranteed, then “holding out” or suing to break their contract is a choice, but it is more opportunistic than noble.  If their contract did not include some participation in the growth of sponsorship revenue, then that is their fault either because they didn’t think of it or didn’t have the bargaining power to command it.  I am sure we all wish we had do-overs on lots of things with better information later on.  Would the conversation still be as it is if the USWNT failed to qualify for the Word Cup?  Let’s not forget that prior to this World Cup, their last 3 years have been a little up and down with the Olympics, She Believes Cup, friendlies, etc. 

A fair argument is that the team has outperformed, revenue has dramatically increased as a result, and they should participate in that revenue growth.  But part of the reason that US Soccer is not worried about proactively rewarding its overachieving players is because there is relatively little risk that that won’t keep playing.  Where else are the going to play?  Do we know their names because of their NWSL careers?  No, and we are soccer people.  Imagine how little the casual sports fan would know.

Now, just like a company with an unexpectedly great employee is smart to reward that employee with a raise to make sure they stay happy and performing, US Soccer should be smart and reward this team proactively given what has happened and the momentum they have now to keep growing the women’s game.  I have a DD and I would love to see that.  The USWNT focus should be on growing the women’s game.  Here and abroad.  The approach they are taking is alienating a big portion of their customer base, and that is not at all in their self-interest.

Making this about sexism without context for the benefits and concessions of the contract the players themselves negotiated is not the full story.  Playing on turf fields, underweighted marketing or development budgets, all screams sexism and bias and they rightly call that out.  But the equal pay thing is more smoke than fire in the context of their contract.  That is unless US Soccer is giving all that extra sponsorship revenue growth to the USMNT, but I at least haven’t read that that is the case.  Both teams are still being paid per their in place contracts.  Please correct me if that is not right. 

There is also a limit to the efficacy of the dollars and cents arguments about sponsorship dollars.  That at some point is about splitting a pie that is smaller than it could be.  That’s fine, but shortsighted.  The real arguments should be about support and development (sexism), overperforming their contract and thus a merit raise, and growing the game domestically and abroad so that the disparity in revenue and attention between the men’s and women’s game globally can continue to shrink and shrink faster.  Growing the game is how they grow their league, grow their TV contracts and sponsorships, their alternative professional outlets and thus their income.  Joe Montana didn’t come anywhere near the money that Brady, Rodgers, and even middling NFL quarterbacks now make.  The game has grown, and with that growth has come the money.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 13, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> It’s like the cast of Friends. They staged a work slowdown/stoppage to renegotiate  their TV contracts after their TV show became a huge hit. This is no different IMHO.


Given the depth of talent in the US Women’s game, this is more like Bewitched. And the more narcissism and arrogance they display in this victory/vanity lap, the more people will be ready for Darrin #2.  

They do need to focus on the bigger picture here, and instead of partying on Caruso’s boat with the USC fake crew team, how about convince the billionaire to part with $$ million to fund an LA-based NWSL team. Perhaps get the USC Trustee Chairman to help provide some facilities as well for training and games at reasonable rates?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 13, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Given the depth of talent in the US Women’s game, this is more like Bewitched. And the more narcissism and arrogance they display in this victory/vanity lap, the more people will be ready for Darrin #2.
> 
> They do need to focus on the bigger picture here, and instead of partying on Caruso’s boat with the USC fake crew team, how about convince the billionaire to part with $$ million to fund an LA-based NWSL team. Perhaps get the USC Trustee Chairman to help provide some facilities as well for training and games at reasonable rates?


I’m a Dick Sargent man myself.  Dick York just didn’t quite do it for me.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 13, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I’m a Dick Sargent man myself.  Dick York just didn’t quite do it for me.


York was too serious. Great actor but unable to suspend belief and own the role. Sargent had the dumb down that the role needed.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 14, 2019)

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2019/07/14/megan-rapinoe-ignores-young-fan/amp
David Dunn, a former professional soccer player, said: "The more I see her the more I dislike her ! The kid should have volleyed it back in her grid !"


"The one kid in America who doesn't think that game sucks and she acts like a stereotypical movie star from an 80s movie in front of him," another person added.

"She's vile. That was disgusting there's people more famous than she will ever be who don't behave like that. Who is she? I don't know her full name and not many will, she's the USA player who won the World Cup," another critic said.

"The window to the soul is observing how someone treats someone powerless who can do absolutely no good for them. She's a piece of sh*t. Her actions over the last 3 weeks confirm it. Making eye contact and acknowledgment of a fan costs 0," another person said.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 14, 2019)

https://www.latimes.com/sports/soccer/la-sp-uswnt-soccer-equal-pay-20190713-story.html

A recent article which pretty much sums up the reason why the USWNT isn't getting the equal pay. It does explained why. Ultimately, I believe we should work towards trying to get to similar pay or fairer pay. Yet to demand it, without the statistics to justify it, is once again the reason why it doesn't make sense.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 14, 2019)

A youtube video that pretty much sums it up.


----------



## espola (Jul 14, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> A youtube video that pretty much sums it up.


Sucker.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> Sucker.


Oops, I hurt someone's FEELINGS.


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> Oops, I hurt someone's FEELINGS.


I will assume that you thought that that article was honest and meaningful.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 15, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> The Golic discussion, and nearly all of the other coverage I have seen on this point, is leaving out an important element of the analysis.  Let me start by saying that I think the USWNT is great and I think they have surely outperformed their contract and deserve a raise.  I note contract because they have one and I have yet to hear that US Soccer is not paying them in accordance with their existing contract, but that is not the point that I think is being left out.  If NFL players can renegotiate their existing contracts, why can't soccer players, right?
> 
> The real point is that they elected security over maximum revenue, and that choice does and should have real consequences.  Just as it does in any other profession.  If I am commission only salesperson, then I expect my maximum income would be higher than base salary plus commission, right?  Who would ever take commission only if that were not the case?  Here, assuming 20 games per season, the men and women are paid the same if both teams lose all their games - essentially the base line compensation for the men equals the base salary for the women.  The men are bonus only (I expect they chose that because they have well developed alternative sources of income through MLS, the overseas clubs, etc. and don't therefore need the consistent security of a national team salary).  The women elected a base salary for consistent, regular income for exactly the opposite reasons (no well developed alternative source of income through a still-fledgling professional league, etc.).   Ok, so if the women's maximum earnings are 89% of the men's maximum earnings, it does not seem quite so egregious or sexist when one considers that the women themselves opted for the security of base salary as a result of the relative underperformance of their other professional options.  Why should that not also come with a lower maximum compensation level?
> 
> ...


@Dof3 I think we agree on the facts but we diverge on whether or not the USWNT should seek relief from their employment agreement with their employer.  I think that their action is commonly done when there is a drastic change in the economics in many industries. In finance for example, it is not uncommon for a star trader to rip up his contract and demand a higher pay package. Conversely, I have also seen investment banks re-negotiate pay guarantees with employees after revenues dropped precipitously. 

Finally, its obviously tough for many men to believe that a group of women are out-earning their male counterparts. Some of the comments and willful ignorance of the facts attest to the angry sexism that many women have to face in the workplace. I once had an employee who was shocked he was earning that same as the woman working next to him. He said he would prefer to earn less but more than her, rather than earn more but be paid equal to her!


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> I will assume that you thought that that article was honest and meaningful.


I don't assume. Found both links, informative and insightful. I have every reason in the book to want  women to get paid more as, my DD if good enough to continue on a path that could lead to play at the professional level. I am also very aware that there is a reality. In other words, other than just winning, prove the sexism that woman are getting paid less because of their gender. Otherwise, simply come together, brainstorm, make changes to the current CBA and wait and build. Wanting more money because you win then we should only pay the starters and those who played on the field and the bench don't deserve to be paid because they didn't do anything to win.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 15, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Given the depth of talent in the US Women’s game, this is more like Bewitched. And the more narcissism and arrogance they display in this victory/vanity lap, the more people will be ready for Darrin #2.
> 
> They do need to focus on the bigger picture here, and instead of partying on Caruso’s boat with the USC fake crew team, how about convince the billionaire to part with $$ million to fund an LA-based NWSL team. Perhaps get the USC Trustee Chairman to help provide some facilities as well for training and games at reasonable rates?


@Dos Equis , having witnessed the  "_Girls Gone Wild: USWNT Edition_" and the obnoxious, cringe-worthy "celebrations" during the game against Thailand, I can relate the sentiment you are expressing about the more visible members of the team. But that is a separate issue from whether or not they should try to renegotiate their deal with the USSF.


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> I don't assume. Found both links, informative and insightful. I have every reason in the book to want  women to get paid more as, my DD if good enough to continue on a path that could lead to play at the professional level. I am also very aware that there is a reality. In other words, other than just winning, prove the sexism that woman are getting paid less because of their gender. Otherwise, simply come together, brainstorm, make changes to the current CBA and wait and build. Wanting more money because you win then we should only pay the starters and those who played on the field and the bench don't deserve to be paid because they didn't do anything to win.


One of those links came from a website that claims expertise in computer gaming and demonstrates ignorance of the reality of the WNT training program.


----------



## tjsoccer (Jul 15, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I think we agree on the facts but we diverge on whether or not the USWNT should seek relief from their employment agreement with their employer.  I think that their action is commonly done when there is a drastic change in the economics in many industries. In finance for example, it is not uncommon for a star trader to rip up his contract and demand a higher pay package. Conversely, I have also seen investment banks re-negotiate pay guarantees with employees after revenues dropped precipitously.


The women have every right to rip up their contract and try to earn more based on the revenue they are generating.  But, women's soccer is not the same product as men's soccer.  Leveraging the "equal pay" argument is disingenuous and hurts the cause.  Throwing it into the political realm is a cynical ploy to try to take advantage of the current political climate.  In corporate America, women do the exact same job as the men and compete for the exact same positions...and get paid less.  Crying "wolf" publicly could really hurt this issue, and keep quality legislation from moving forward.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 15, 2019)

tjsoccer said:


> The women have every right to rip up their contract and try to earn more based on the revenue they are generating.  But, women's soccer is not the same product as men's soccer.  Leveraging the "equal pay" argument is disingenuous and hurts the cause.  Throwing it into the political realm is a cynical ploy to try to take advantage of the current political climate.  In corporate America, women do the exact same job as the men and compete for the exact same positions...and get paid less.  Crying "wolf" publicly could really hurt this issue, and keep quality legislation from moving forward.


@tjsoccer, I wish we could have a more nuanced discussion, but as you have seen with your own eyes on this thread, many still do not understand the issue, even when it is spelled out C-A-T.  BTW you posted 4 times since 2016? Who is your other avatar ??


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

tjsoccer said:


> The women have every right to rip up their contract and try to earn more based on the revenue they are generating.  But, women's soccer is not the same product as men's soccer.  Leveraging the "equal pay" argument is disingenuous and hurts the cause.  Throwing it into the political realm is a cynical ploy to try to take advantage of the current political climate.  In corporate America, women do the exact same job as the men and compete for the exact same positions...and get paid less.  Crying "wolf" publicly could really hurt this issue, and keep quality legislation from moving forward.


But --- it's not really clear which side you are supporting here.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> But --- it's not really clear which side you are supporting here.


I think TJ is supporting a meritocracy based upon "fair pay" as distinct from "equal pay".


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> One of those links came from a website that claims expertise in computer gaming and demonstrates ignorance of the reality of the WNT training program.


The source of the information should have some merit regardless of their ideology. However if the information is accurate and while slightly biased in exposing some facts, that shouldn't negate that it content has value. The links bring a side of conversation and I believe answers the question of why. I don't have to agree with everything in the links to share it for those that may not have had a different understanding of the situation. It was never a black and white answer. To chose a side and not offer a legitimate solution, then you will never have any progress.


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> The source of the information should have some merit regardless of their ideology. However if the information is accurate and while slightly biased in exposing some facts, that shouldn't negate that it content has value. The links bring a side of conversation and I believe answers the question of why. I don't have to agree with everything in the links to share it for those that may not have had a different understanding of the situation. It was never a black and white answer. To chose a side and not offer a legitimate solution, then you will never have any progress.


The content you posted from the video games master has no value in a discussion of WNT pay.

Change my mind.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 15, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I find this analogy highly misleading.  As you point out, the USSF is a single purpose entity with an anti-trust exemption so it can be the sole team able to wear the US Flag and represent this country in international competitions.  Now if US soccer simply turned to the LA Galaxy and said, "Hey, go represent us this time in the World Cup", your analogy might be relevant.  That would mean other private groups would, in theory, be given the same opportunity, or at least there would be competition to earn that designation.
> 
> Are Civil Rights really here to stay, as you claim?  I think each player on this team should have the same rights -- to speak their mind anyway they see fit (even if that means choosing to kneel during our anthem, which I find distasteful).  They are not exempt from suffering repercussions personally and professional, but should not from an entity supported by our government through an exclusivity agreement making them our nations representatives.  And those rights also include no compelled speech, meaning if they do not want to wear something that is clearly advocating a viewpoint (a pink ribbon, a black armband, or even a rainbow number), that is their right.  And I have every right to disagree or agree with any one of them, and to do so publicly.  It seems to me a lot of people on this board who claim to support Civil Rights only do so when they agree with the viewpoint of those taking advantage of those rights.


USSF is not a "single purpose entity" and I have never suggested anything of the sort.  USSF is a private entity that does a whole bunch of stuff, only one of which involves sending national teams to play in international competition.   There is also nothing stopping USOC from telling LA Galaxy that it's unhappy with USSF and giving LA Galaxy the right to send national teams instead of USSF.  Just ask USA Gymnastics what happens when USOC gets unhappy.

I don't know what you mean when you suggest that what I am saying is not "relevant".  If anything, it's your view that is irrelevant because what you think "should" happen is not the reality of what is *actually* happening.  It is also not the reality of what USSF is legally entitled to do.  USSF is using rainbow jerseys one month a year, and it has every legal right to do so.  It has every right to boot bigots from the team because they're bad teammates although, in Hinkle's case, she didn't make the team because she just isn't good enough.  The only thing that is not relevant to USSF's actions is what you think it "should" do.  Keep whining.  In fact, I strongly recommend that you let your congressman know exactly how you feel about civil rights and ask them to pressure USOC into decertifying USSF.  I'd love to see how that goes.

BTW, do you and your buddies also oppose USA Track and Field's annual celebration of black history month?  Would you be opposed if the US Chess Federation engaged in a "political" boycott of the world championships in Iran because the host country required that female Christian participants wear hijabs?  In reality, support for civil rights is not politics.  As I have said before, "politics" is just the word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing civil rights and equality.  But when people like you and MWN advocate that government entities should get in the way of private entities supporting civil rights, well, that is politics.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 15, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> USSF is not a "single purpose entity" and I have never suggested anything of the sort.  USSF is a private entity that does a whole bunch of stuff, only one of which involves sending national teams to play in international competition.   There is also nothing stopping USOC from telling LA Galaxy that it's unhappy with USSF and giving LA Galaxy the right to send national teams instead of USSF.  Just ask USA Gymnastics what happens when USOC gets unhappy.
> 
> I don't know what you mean when you suggest that what I am saying is not "relevant".  If anything, it's your view that is irrelevant because what you think "should" happen is not the reality of what is *actually* happening.  It is also not the reality of what USSF is legally entitled to do.  USSF is using rainbow jerseys one month a year, and it has every legal right to do so.  It has every right to boot bigots from the team because they're bad teammates although, in Hinkle's case, she didn't make the team because she just isn't good enough.  The only thing that is not relevant to USSF's actions is what you think it "should" do.  Keep whining.  In fact, I strongly recommend that you let your congressman know exactly how you feel about civil rights and ask them to pressure USOC into decertifying USSF.  I'd love to see how that goes.
> 
> BTW, do you and your buddies also oppose USA Track and Field's annual celebration of black history month?  Would you be opposed if the US Chess Federation engaged in a "political" boycott of the world championships in Iran because the host country required that female Christian participants wear hijabs?  In reality, support for civil rights is not politics.  As I have said before, "politics" is just the word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing civil rights and equality.  But when people like you and MWN advocate that government entities should get in the way of private entities supporting civil rights, well, that is politics.


I disagree.  But you are good at both setting up straw men, then tearing them down.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> The content you posted from the video games master has no value in a discussion of WNT pay.
> 
> Change my mind.


SMH, This is a forum for discussion. The simple fact that the video speaks of the USWNT means it has relevance and value. You don't have to agree. I don't have to change your mind. Once again its an open soccer forum. 

Or is there some rule, where this forum is only accepts opinions that you agree with otherwise they have no value.


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> SMH, This is a forum for discussion. The simple fact that the video speaks of the USWNT means it has relevance and value. You don't have to agree. I don't have to change your mind. Once again its an open soccer forum.
> 
> Or is there some rule, where this forum is only accepts opinions that you agree with otherwise they have no value.


My opinion?  The posting was worthless.  The author demonstrated he has no knowledge of the subject of WNT pay and appeared to be just trying to stir up some clickbait.


----------



## Glen (Jul 15, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> USSF is not a "single purpose entity" and I have never suggested anything of the sort.  USSF is a private entity that does a whole bunch of stuff, only one of which involves sending national teams to play in international competition.   There is also nothing stopping USOC from telling LA Galaxy that it's unhappy with USSF and giving LA Galaxy the right to send national teams instead of USSF.  Just ask USA Gymnastics what happens when USOC gets unhappy.
> 
> I don't know what you mean when you suggest that what I am saying is not "relevant".  If anything, it's your view that is irrelevant because what you think "should" happen is not the reality of what is *actually* happening.  It is also not the reality of what USSF is legally entitled to do.  USSF is using rainbow jerseys one month a year, and it has every legal right to do so.  It has every right to boot bigots from the team because they're bad teammates although, in Hinkle's case, she didn't make the team because she just isn't good enough.  The only thing that is not relevant to USSF's actions is what you think it "should" do.  Keep whining.  In fact, I strongly recommend that you let your congressman know exactly how you feel about civil rights and ask them to pressure USOC into decertifying USSF.  I'd love to see how that goes.
> 
> BTW, do you and your buddies also oppose USA Track and Field's annual celebration of black history month?  Would you be opposed if the US Chess Federation engaged in a "political" boycott of the world championships in Iran because the host country required that female Christian participants wear hijabs?  In reality, support for civil rights is not politics.  As I have said before, "politics" is just the word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing civil rights and equality.  But when people like you and MWN advocate that government entities should get in the way of private entities supporting civil rights, well, that is politics.


Civil rights, by definition, includes the right to _political_ and social freedom.  It's the most fundamental right of them all.  It's why the ACLU supported the Neo Nazi's right to march in Skokie.  I guess "civil rights" is just a word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing the civil rights of others.


----------



## espola (Jul 15, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> USSF is not a "single purpose entity" and I have never suggested anything of the sort.  USSF is a private entity that does a whole bunch of stuff, only one of which involves sending national teams to play in international competition.   There is also nothing stopping USOC from telling LA Galaxy that it's unhappy with USSF and giving LA Galaxy the right to send national teams instead of USSF.  Just ask USA Gymnastics what happens when USOC gets unhappy.
> 
> I don't know what you mean when you suggest that what I am saying is not "relevant".  If anything, it's your view that is irrelevant because what you think "should" happen is not the reality of what is *actually* happening.  It is also not the reality of what USSF is legally entitled to do.  USSF is using rainbow jerseys one month a year, and it has every legal right to do so.  It has every right to boot bigots from the team because they're bad teammates although, in Hinkle's case, she didn't make the team because she just isn't good enough.  The only thing that is not relevant to USSF's actions is what you think it "should" do.  Keep whining.  In fact, I strongly recommend that you let your congressman know exactly how you feel about civil rights and ask them to pressure USOC into decertifying USSF.  I'd love to see how that goes.
> 
> BTW, do you and your buddies also oppose USA Track and Field's annual celebration of black history month?  Would you be opposed if the US Chess Federation engaged in a "political" boycott of the world championships in Iran because the host country required that female Christian participants wear hijabs?  In reality, support for civil rights is not politics.  As I have said before, "politics" is just the word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing civil rights and equality.  But when people like you and MWN advocate that government entities should get in the way of private entities supporting civil rights, well, that is politics.


https://twitter.com/Ashlyn_Harris/status/1150806395203309568?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1150806395203309568&ref_url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ashlyn-harris-uswnt-jaelene-hinkle-homophobia_n_5d2cb2e5e4b0c145d7b26a21


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 15, 2019)

espola said:


> My opinion?  The posting was worthless.  The author demonstrated he has no knowledge of the subject of WNT pay and appeared to be just trying to stir up some clickbait.


If I may be so bold, just in case I missed your take on the equal pay. I would like your thoughts as to the validity and a real solution. As I stated before, I have a vested interest in this as my DD is on a path where this would affect her decision on how far her soccer could continue. I simply believe that a lawsuit, while justified in performance, ignores the CBA. While also failing to understand the economics behind it. I am no expert , but after reading, listening, and watching how this has unfolded. I hope for the best, but can see that it's not just a simple, black and white choice.


----------



## tjsoccer (Jul 15, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> @tjsoccer, I wish we could have a more nuanced discussion, but as you have seen with your own eyes on this thread, many still do not understand the issue, even when it is spelled out C-A-T.  BTW you posted 4 times since 2016? Who is your other avatar ??


I got a bunch of posts on the norcal board.  No other handle other than @tjsoccer.

I agree with you 100%.  They have every right to renegotiate their contract.  Why wouldn't they do it when they are in a position to show that they are generating increased revenues?    I guess I'm just quarreling with their tactics.  I believe they should de-certify like the NFLPA and go on strike.   

That said, the EEOC is allowing the players to sue because they believe their case could have merit. I guess going the lawsuit route allows them to get paid while they negotiate...and keep their sponsors happy.  If they can prove this is really about "the cause", then all is good.  But if they can't, then they are just a group trying to profit off of Civil Rights legislation.


----------



## MWN (Jul 16, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> ...USSF is a private entity that does a whole bunch of stuff, only one of which involves sending national teams to play in international competition.   There is also nothing stopping USOC from telling LA Galaxy that it's unhappy with USSF and giving LA Galaxy the right to send national teams instead of USSF.  Just ask USA Gymnastics what happens when USOC gets unhappy.
> 
> ... BTW, do you and your buddies also oppose USA Track and Field's annual celebration of black history month?  Would you be opposed if the US Chess Federation engaged in a "political" boycott of the world championships in Iran because the host country required that female Christian participants wear hijabs?  In reality, support for civil rights is not politics.  As I have said before, "politics" is just the word people use to make themselves feel better for opposing civil rights and equality.  But when people like you and MWN advocate that government entities should get in the way of private entities supporting civil rights, well, that is politics.


@End of the Line ... there are a few impediments stopping the USOC from anointing the LA Galaxy the right to send a national team.  The first is that the LA Galaxy is part of the MLS, which is a privately held, for profit entity with no charitable public purpose.  This would violate the USOC's legal requirements under the Ted Stevens act that National Governing Bodies be charities.  The second problem, is that the LA Galaxy team is technically an operating unit of the MLS, thus, the MLS would have to be given the right (assuming it changed its corporate purpose).

With regard to National Governing Bodies advocating for various social and charitable causes, be it black history month, breast cancer awareness, white pride, Hispanic pride, Asian pride, save the fairy shrimp, etc., I believe they should not.  Its one thing to say ... all are welcome, discrimination based on melanin levels, sex, gender, etc., are not tolerated.  Its an entirely different thing to say "we are going to single out this one issue, change our uniforms to recognize it, and advocate."  Along with the freedom of speech, comes the freedom not to speak.  The freedom to march and protest, and the freedom not to march and protest.  National Teams and National Governing Bodies should establish rules that prevent violations of civil rights, but should not pick up the sign and go march.

My above opinion was reinforced as a result of an event that occurred when I was coaching my son's recreational team many years ago.  It was the Fall season, he returned back to rec soccer from a bad club experience, I coached the team.  The season was played in September and October.  October was breast cancer awareness month.  The program asked all the teams to wear pink socks.  For years we went along with the whole pink socks thing ... be it pop warner or soccer, but this year was different.  You see, the week of our opening game, one of my player's mother passed away from pancreatic cancer.  What month is pancreatic cancer month?  Hell if I knew, but what I did now is there are a whole host of cancers out there and each one has a color.  If I recall, "purple" was the pancreatic color, so I informed the league that we would not be wearing pink ... we would wear purple socks.  

About midway through October, it hit me that maybe instead of purple or pink or whatever color, we should just be wearing the color of socks for cancer itself ... whatever color that was.  What made breast cancer so special over the other cancers.  I had a player would mother died just a few weeks earlier and here are all these teams focusing on breast cancer and not the cancer that killed his mom.  

The reason I don't want National Governing Bodies to take on political advocacy of issues is because for every issue there are others left out.  If we are going to celebrate Gay Price and change the jersey's, do we also celebrate Heterosexual Pride?,  African-American Pride, Irish-American Pride, Hispanic Pride, White Pride, etc.  Its best the NGB's set policies of non-discrimination and put down the picket signs.


----------



## espola (Jul 16, 2019)

MWN said:


> @End of the Line ... there are a few impediments stopping the USOC from anointing the LA Galaxy the right to send a national team.  The first is that the LA Galaxy is part of the MLS, which is a privately held, for profit entity with no charitable public purpose.  This would violate the USOC's legal requirements under the Ted Stevens act that National Governing Bodies be charities.  The second problem, is that the LA Galaxy team is technically an operating unit of the MLS, thus, the MLS would have to be given the right (assuming it changed its corporate purpose).
> 
> With regard to National Governing Bodies advocating for various social and charitable causes, be it black history month, breast cancer awareness, white pride, Hispanic pride, Asian pride, save the fairy shrimp, etc., I believe they should not.  Its one thing to say ... all are welcome, discrimination based on melanin levels, sex, gender, etc., are not tolerated.  Its an entirely different thing to say "we are going to single out this one issue, change our uniforms to recognize it, and advocate."  Along with the freedom of speech, comes the freedom not to speak.  The freedom to march and protest, and the freedom not to march and protest.  National Teams and National Governing Bodies should establish rules that prevent violations of civil rights, but should not pick up the sign and go march.
> 
> ...


Do you need a tissue?


----------



## MWN (Jul 16, 2019)

espola said:


> Do you need a tissue?


At the time, yes, it was very sad to see that this young man, age 10 or 11 was going to go through life without a mother.  I attended her funeral and needed another one at the time.

Are you asking if I still need one?  The answer is no.  Why did you ask?  Are you trying to be funny?  Minimize the reason for why I believe a certain way?


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 16, 2019)

MWN said:


> @End of the Line ... there are a few impediments stopping the USOC from anointing the LA Galaxy the right to send a national team.  The first is that the LA Galaxy is part of the MLS, which is a privately held, for profit entity with no charitable public purpose.  This would violate the USOC's legal requirements under the Ted Stevens act that National Governing Bodies be charities.  The second problem, is that the LA Galaxy team is technically an operating unit of the MLS, thus, the MLS would have to be given the right (assuming it changed its corporate purpose).
> 
> With regard to National Governing Bodies advocating for various social and charitable causes, be it black history month, breast cancer awareness, white pride, Hispanic pride, Asian pride, save the fairy shrimp, etc., I believe they should not.  Its one thing to say ... all are welcome, discrimination based on melanin levels, sex, gender, etc., are not tolerated.  Its an entirely different thing to say "we are going to single out this one issue, change our uniforms to recognize it, and advocate."  Along with the freedom of speech, comes the freedom not to speak.  The freedom to march and protest, and the freedom not to march and protest.  National Teams and National Governing Bodies should establish rules that prevent violations of civil rights, but should not pick up the sign and go march.
> 
> ...


@MWN I was at a soccer club board meeting and I tried to politely object to wearing the pink socks for the reason you stated. After the words came out of my mouth at the board meeting ...the reaction on their faces was as if I had let loose a terrible fart in church...

I’ll never do that again !


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 16, 2019)

I’ll never do that again ![/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Actually you should. Who cares what their reactions are. They are just virtue signaling after all. How about instead of for instance dressing up the kids in pink, if it is a dear issue to the parents, have the parents wear pink.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jul 16, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> @MWN I was at a soccer club board meeting and I tried to politely object to wearing the pink socks for the reason you stated. After the words came out of my mouth at the board meeting ...the reaction on their faces was as if I had let loose a terrible fart in church...
> 
> I’ll never do that again !


And unfortunately a sign of hypocrisy regarding free speech and freedom of beliefs - as long as you believe and support what the standard view is you are accepted , if not you are criticized even if in a subtle way.  There should never be a time when behaviors of bigotry and racism are  tolerated but when it comes to different views like this no should feel silenced.


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## End of the Line (Jul 16, 2019)

MWN said:


> @End of the Line ... there are a few impediments stopping the USOC from anointing the LA Galaxy the right to send a national team.  The first is that the LA Galaxy is part of the MLS, which is a privately held, for profit entity with no charitable public purpose.  This would violate the USOC's legal requirements under the Ted Stevens act that National Governing Bodies be charities.  The second problem, is that the LA Galaxy team is technically an operating unit of the MLS, thus, the MLS would have to be given the right (assuming it changed its corporate purpose).
> 
> With regard to National Governing Bodies advocating for various social and charitable causes, be it black history month, breast cancer awareness, white pride, Hispanic pride, Asian pride, save the fairy shrimp, etc., I believe they should not.  Its one thing to say ... all are welcome, discrimination based on melanin levels, sex, gender, etc., are not tolerated.  Its an entirely different thing to say "we are going to single out this one issue, change our uniforms to recognize it, and advocate."  Along with the freedom of speech, comes the freedom not to speak.  The freedom to march and protest, and the freedom not to march and protest.  National Teams and National Governing Bodies should establish rules that prevent violations of civil rights, but should not pick up the sign and go march.
> 
> ...


LA Galaxy has a foundation.  Their youth clubs are also 501(c)(3)s.  Just throw it in one of those or create a new one specially for the WNT.  Your fake problem has now been solved.

Man, have you gone down the rabbit hole.  You started by claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore cannot support equality.  This is false, of course, but it is also bizarre since various government agencies and entities properly support civil rights every single day, as they should.  Now that all your other non-sense has been proven to be rubbish, now you're claiming USSF shouldn't support civil rights because your kid's soccer team doesn't support white supremacy or pancreatic cancer awareness month?

Let me explain something to you.  The very point of the 501(c)(3) tax exemption - of which USSF is one - is to support causes.  USSF has chosen to support civil rights.  USATF has chosen to support black history month.  The US Postal Service has chosen to support just about everything (including Christmas) with a variety of stamps.  501(c)(3)s, government entities and private entities support causes every day.


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## End of the Line (Jul 16, 2019)

MWN said:


> At the time, yes, it was very sad to see that this young man, age 10 or 11 was going to go through life without a mother.  I attended her funeral and needed another one at the time.
> 
> Are you asking if I still need one?  The answer is no.  Why did you ask?  Are you trying to be funny?  Minimize the reason for why I believe a certain way?


Seriously dude, you are desperate.  USSF shouldn't support equality because you went to a funeral?  WTF are you talking about?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 16, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> The source of the information should have some merit regardless of their ideology. However if the information is accurate and while slightly biased in exposing some facts, that shouldn't negate that it content has value. The links bring a side of conversation and I believe answers the question of why. I don't have to agree with everything in the links to share it for those that may not have had a different understanding of the situation. It was never a black and white answer. To chose a side and not offer a legitimate solution, then you will never have any progress.


Don't waste your time with Espola. All he wants to do is take you down a rabbit hole...


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## espola (Jul 16, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Don't waste your time with Espola. All he wants to do is take you down a rabbit hole...


Opinions are like what?


----------



## baldref (Jul 16, 2019)

MWN said:


> At the time, yes, it was very sad to see that this young man, age 10 or 11 was going to go through life without a mother.  I attended her funeral and needed another one at the time.
> 
> Are you asking if I still need one?  The answer is no.  Why did you ask?  Are you trying to be funny?  Minimize the reason for why I believe a certain way?


you're not allowed to have an opinion other than "theirs". the people who supposedly champion equality are frauds. they prove it over and over.


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## espola (Jul 16, 2019)

baldref said:


> you're not allowed to have an opinion other than "theirs". the people who supposedly champion equality are frauds. they prove it over and over.


It's never going to come about that we all have "yours".


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 16, 2019)

espola said:


> Opinions are like what?


Apparently they are like you and your opinion of yourself!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 17, 2019)

Looks like the left is not so tolerant, who knew?
*USWNT’s Ashlyn Harris Blasts Former Christian Teammate: 'You Are Homophobic'*



_





FIFA via Getty Images
WARNER TODD HUSTON 16 Jul 2019 
*U.S. Women’s soccer player Ashlyn Harris ripped former teammate Jaelene Hinkle, who is a proud Christian, calling her “homophobic.”*

Hinkle was cut from the World Cup-winning team at the end of last season before the team headed to France for the Women’s World Cup and in interviews, she hinted that her participation was ended more because she is a staunch Christian than because of her playing abilities.
But Harris went on the attack against Hinkle, according to the New York Post.

“Hinkle, our team is about inclusion. Your religion was never the problem. The problem is your intolerance, and you are homophobic,” said Harris, who is gay. “You don’t belong in a sport that aims to unite and bring people together. You would never fit into our pack or what this team stands for,” Harris added.

Hinkle has never said anything in public against gays as human beings. But she spoke up against gay marriage in the past. In 2015, for instance, in the midst of debate about gay marriage, she notedthat a Christian can’t pick and choose what Bible-based ideals they want to follow. And in 2017 she refused to wear a gay pride jersey.

“I just felt so convicted in my spirit that it wasn’t my job to wear this jersey,” Hinkle told 700 Club about the gay pride jersey incident. “I’m essentially giving up the one dream little girls dream about their entire lives. It was very disappointing. I knew in my spirit I was doing the right thing. I knew I was being obedient.”

But Harris continued to insist that Hinkle is homophobic.

“Don’t you dare say our team is ‘not a welcoming place for Christians,'” Harris said.”You weren’t around long enough to know what this team stood for. This is actually an insult to the Christians on our team. [Shame] on you.”


_


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 17, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Looks like the left is not so tolerant, who knew?
> *USWNT’s Ashlyn Harris Blasts Former Christian Teammate: 'You Are Homophobic'*
> 
> 
> ...


Come on bro let's not go there.  Let's enjoy the win.  This was the right team because this is the team that won.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 17, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Looks like the left is not so tolerant, who knew?
> *USWNT’s Ashlyn Harris Blasts Former Christian Teammate: 'You Are Homophobic'*
> 
> 
> ...


It's payback time.


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## Multi Sport (Jul 17, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> It's payback time.


So by that remark you agree that the remarks by Harris are wrong?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 17, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Come on bro let's not go there.  Let's enjoy the win.  This was the right team because this is the team that won.


I am good with that.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 17, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> So by that remark you agree that the remarks by Harris are wrong?


Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.

Harris is a patriot who supports equality as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  Hinkle, on the other hand, is a bigot who does not.   The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.  Harris, like Rosa Parks, is a hero who stands up for equality.  Hinkle, like Bull Connor, is a bigot who rationalizes the continuing oppression of others using religion as an excuse.  Certainly, Parks was a much greater hero when you put things in context, but it is much more fun living in an era when someone like Harris can stand up for herself and also publicly rub Hinkle's bigotry in her face without having to worry too much about being beaten to death.

If Hinkle doesn't like that that she's never going to play in the WC, she should consider moving to a repressive middle eastern country that shares her homophobic views, since she's presumably good enough to at least make most of those squads assuming she's as good as MAP says.  Of course, she should avoid countries that require athletes wear hijabs since she would obviously be right back to square one.

I get it.  It's hard growing up being constantly told you're entitled to preferential treatment over gay folk, only to have the U.S. Supreme Court tell you that you only get the same rights as everyone else.  I can't imagine how difficult it must be for someone to spend their entire life pointing to the bible to justify being an a**hole, only to have that away.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 17, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.
> 
> Harris is a patriot who supports equality as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  Hinkle, on the other hand, is a bigot who does not.   The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.  Harris, like Rosa Parks, is a hero who stands up for equality.  Hinkle, like Bull Connor, is a bigot who rationalizes the continuing oppression of others using religion as an excuse.  Certainly, Parks was a much greater hero when you put things in context, but it is much more fun living in an era when someone like Harris can stand up for herself and also publicly rub Hinkle's bigotry in her face without having to worry too much about being beaten to death.
> 
> ...


Nobody has anything against gay people.  Who cares.  I also don't agree with Hinkle's perspective and opinions regarding LGBTQ people.  All that I care about is her soccer ability and to say that she isn't one of the best leftbacks in the world is disingenuous at best.  I don't think that anybody should be discriminated against for their race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, socio-economic status, family, etc.

What you need to do is to go to the off topic and rage against the true bigots in that forum.  They will give you all of the fight that you are looking for.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 17, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.
> 
> Harris is a patriot who supports equality as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  Hinkle, on the other hand, is a bigot who does not.   The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.  Harris, like Rosa Parks, is a hero who stands up for equality.  Hinkle, like Bull Connor, is a bigot who rationalizes the continuing oppression of others using religion as an excuse.  Certainly, Parks was a much greater hero when you put things in context, but it is much more fun living in an era when someone like Harris can stand up for herself and also publicly rub Hinkle's bigotry in her face without having to worry too much about being beaten to death.
> 
> ...


Why the Bible quote? And why do you have so much hate?


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 17, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Nobody has anything against gay people. Who cares. I also don't agree with Hinkle's perspective and opinions regarding LGBTQ people. All that I care about is her soccer ability and to say that she isn't one of the best leftbacks in the world is disingenuous at best. I don't think that anybody should be discriminated against for their race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, socio-economic status, family, etc.


To be inclusive, doesn't mean you have to accept everything that everyone on the team says. Tossing the word homophobic is a quick way to say that someone hates homosexuals. A true Christian, doesn't hate the person, merely the actions. Example, you don't have to hate a sinner, just don't approve of the sin. We are all sinners, so I don't think anyone has the right to discriminate. Yet Hinkle's choice to not want to wear a jersey that clearly supports a value that she doesn't agree with doesn't make her  homophobic. If Rapinoe can chose to not to stand and not put her right hand over her heart and sing the national anthem. Why can't Hinkle simply play and not have to wear the rainbow jersey. What if a Muslim player had made the team, and asked for the same thing with her beliefs about not wearing the jersey. Would the same outrage be heard, and would her team mates be called Islamophobic. 

Rodney King said it pretty well " Can't we all get along."


----------



## MacDre (Jul 17, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.
> 
> Harris is a patriot who supports equality as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  Hinkle, on the other hand, is a bigot who does not.   The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.  Harris, like Rosa Parks, is a hero who stands up for equality.  Hinkle, like Bull Connor, is a bigot who rationalizes the continuing oppression of others using religion as an excuse.  Certainly, Parks was a much greater hero when you put things in context, but it is much more fun living in an era when someone like Harris can stand up for herself and also publicly rub Hinkle's bigotry in her face without having to worry too much about being beaten to death.
> 
> ...


Did you know that the book of Exodus was written before the book of Genesis?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 18, 2019)

MacDre said:


> Did you know that the book of Exodus was written before the book of Genesis?


They book of Job is the oldest.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 18, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> To be inclusive, doesn't mean you have to accept everything that everyone on the team says. Tossing the word homophobic is a quick way to say that someone hates homosexuals. A true Christian, doesn't hate the person, merely the actions. Example, you don't have to hate a sinner, just don't approve of the sin. We are all sinners, so I don't think anyone has the right to discriminate. Yet Hinkle's choice to not want to wear a jersey that clearly supports a value that she doesn't agree with doesn't make her  homophobic. If Rapinoe can chose to not to stand and not put her right hand over her heart and sing the national anthem. Why can't Hinkle simply play and not have to wear the rainbow jersey. What if a Muslim player had made the team, and asked for the same thing with her beliefs about not wearing the jersey. Would the same outrage be heard, and would her team mates be called Islamophobic.
> 
> Rodney King said it pretty well " Can't we all get along."


I don't hate religious bigots.  Actually, I love them with all my heart.  I just hate their actions and therefore use the authority of my moral high ground to oppose their efforts to seek preferential treatment, just as they use what they think is religious high ground to oppose equality.  Do you understand now how ludicrous the "hate the sin but not the sinner" argument is?  It is just an excuse for religious bigots to feel better about themselves when they oppose the civil rights of others.  If you oppose equality and civil rights for the LGBT community and repeatedly speak out about it, as Hinkle does, you are by definition homophobic.  Religious bigots no longer get to frame the argument with their twisted logic without getting called out for it, as the patriot Ashlyn Harris made clear.   If you're a true Christian and think it is wrong to marry someone of the same sex, don't.  There is no legitimate reason to oppose someone else's constitutional right to do so.  None.

I didn't bring up Hinkle, and I'll stop talking about her here just as soon as others stop falsely accusing Ellis and USSF of excluding her because of her religion.  As soon as they stop falsely claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore must allow homophobes like her to play even when they aren't good enough on the merits.  If you want to move on, then follow your advice instead of trying to tell me you really love the people you are seeking to deprive of their civil rights.  But as long as you want to keep talking about it, I'm here.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 18, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I don't hate religious bigots.  Actually, I love them with all my heart.  I just hate their actions and therefore use the authority of my moral high ground to oppose their efforts to seek preferential treatment, just as they use what they think is religious high ground to oppose equality.  Do you understand now how ludicrous the "hate the sin but not the sinner" argument is?  It is just an excuse for religious bigots to feel better about themselves when they oppose the civil rights of others.  If you oppose equality and civil rights for the LGBT community and repeatedly speak out about it, as Hinkle does, you are by definition homophobic.  Religious bigots no longer get to frame the argument with their twisted logic without getting called out for it, as the patriot Ashlyn Harris made clear.   If you're a true Christian and think it is wrong to marry someone of the same sex, don't.  There is no legitimate reason to oppose someone else's constitutional right to do so.  None.
> 
> I didn't bring up Hinkle, and I'll stop talking about her here just as soon as others stop falsely accusing Ellis and USSF of excluding her because of her religion.  As soon as they stop falsely claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore must allow homophobes like her to play even when they aren't good enough on the merits.  If you want to move on, then follow your advice instead of trying to tell me you really love the people you are seeking to deprive of their civil rights.  But as long as you want to keep talking about it, I'm here.


So what civil rights is Hinkle proposing the Lesbians on the USWNT team be denied?


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 18, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I don't hate religious bigots.  Actually, I love them with all my heart.  I just hate their actions and therefore use the authority of my moral high ground to oppose their efforts to seek preferential treatment, just as they use what they think is religious high ground to oppose equality.  Do you understand now how ludicrous the "hate the sin but not the sinner" argument is?  It is just an excuse for religious bigots to feel better about themselves when they oppose the civil rights of others.  If you oppose equality and civil rights for the LGBT community and repeatedly speak out about it, as Hinkle does, you are by definition homophobic.  Religious bigots no longer get to frame the argument with their twisted logic without getting called out for it, as the patriot Ashlyn Harris made clear.   If you're a true Christian and think it is wrong to marry someone of the same sex, don't.  There is no legitimate reason to oppose someone else's constitutional right to do so.  None.
> 
> I didn't bring up Hinkle, and I'll stop talking about her here just as soon as others stop falsely accusing Ellis and USSF of excluding her because of her religion.  As soon as they stop falsely claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore must allow homophobes like her to play even when they aren't good enough on the merits.  If you want to move on, then follow your advice instead of trying to tell me you really love the people you are seeking to deprive of their civil rights.  But as long as you want to keep talking about it, I'm here.


Hate the sin, but not the sinner.  If you think that is ludicrous, then you really don't understand it. You are focusing on one type of sin, example, let's say a family member commits a crime while under the influence. I don't think people will hate the family member, but we can say that we hate that they allowed the sin of being under the influence to cloud their judgement and commit another sin, the crime. The freedom of will allows all of us the choice on how we decide to live. Yet somehow, if the choice to not wear a jersey that empowers a lifestyle that one's faith says is not the right choice. Why is it that homophobic. You simply don't agree and choose not to support it. Kind of like if we lived in a nation that allowed us the freedom of speech. Its a choice, it's and opinion, it's a lifestyle. Where in all this has anyone's civil rights been trampled and denied. The real problem is that as soon as you don't agree with any LGBT stance, you automatically become the bigot, the oppressor, the homophobe. To say Hinkle's talent is not worthy of being on the team and somehow she managed to lose her spot on the team due to her lack of soccer talent. I think that is a shame. Like a said before, had a Muslim made the team, and ventured forth to make the same decision not to wear the rainbow jersey. Everyone would be called Islamophobic.


----------



## Glen (Jul 18, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.
> 
> Harris is a patriot who supports equality as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  Hinkle, on the other hand, is a bigot who does not.   The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.  Harris, like Rosa Parks, is a hero who stands up for equality.  Hinkle, like Bull Connor, is a bigot who rationalizes the continuing oppression of others using religion as an excuse.  Certainly, Parks was a much greater hero when you put things in context, but it is much more fun living in an era when someone like Harris can stand up for herself and also publicly rub Hinkle's bigotry in her face without having to worry too much about being beaten to death.
> 
> ...


The most fundamental civil right is political freedom.  That includes the political freedom to be, in your words, bigoted.  It's why the ACLU fought on behalf of the Nationalist Socialist Party's right to march in Skokie (and won).  

When did civil rights become limited to messages of equality?  That's an extremely myopic view of civil rights.  Civil rights are complex and often involve competing interests.  

And just so we are clear, I'm an atheist that thinks Hinkle's views are reprehensible.  But they are her personal views, which she seemed to have kept to herself until she was asked (similar to Kaepernick).  As long as she did not use her position on the national team to promote her views, she should have been on the team if she was qualified.  But then again, I don't think anyone should be using the privilege of national team selection to promote personal views - even those I agree with.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 18, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I don't hate religious bigots.  Actually, I love them with all my heart.  I just hate their actions and therefore use the authority of my moral high ground to oppose their efforts to seek preferential treatment, just as they use what they think is religious high ground to oppose equality.  Do you understand now how ludicrous the "hate the sin but not the sinner" argument is?  It is just an excuse for religious bigots to feel better about themselves when they oppose the civil rights of others.  If you oppose equality and civil rights for the LGBT community and repeatedly speak out about it, as Hinkle does, you are by definition homophobic.  Religious bigots no longer get to frame the argument with their twisted logic without getting called out for it, as the patriot Ashlyn Harris made clear.   If you're a true Christian and think it is wrong to marry someone of the same sex, don't.  There is no legitimate reason to oppose someone else's constitutional right to do so.  None.
> 
> I didn't bring up Hinkle, and I'll stop talking about her here just as soon as others stop falsely accusing Ellis and USSF of excluding her because of her religion.  As soon as they stop falsely claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore must allow homophobes like her to play even when they aren't good enough on the merits.  If you want to move on, then follow your advice instead of trying to tell me you really love the people you are seeking to deprive of their civil rights.  But as long as you want to keep talking about it, I'm here.


Why did they exclude her?


----------



## espola (Jul 18, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Why did they exclude her?


They didn't.  She was invited and declined the opportunity.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 18, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> Hate the sin, but not the sinner.  If you think that is ludicrous, then you really don't understand it. You are focusing on one type of sin, example, let's say a family member commits a crime while under the influence. I don't think people will hate the family member, but we can say that we hate that they allowed the sin of being under the influence to cloud their judgement and commit another sin, the crime. The freedom of will allows all of us the choice on how we decide to live. Yet somehow, if the choice to not wear a jersey that empowers a lifestyle that one's faith says is not the right choice. Why is it that homophobic. You simply don't agree and choose not to support it. Kind of like if we lived in a nation that allowed us the freedom of speech. Its a choice, it's and opinion, it's a lifestyle. Where in all this has anyone's civil rights been trampled and denied. The real problem is that as soon as you don't agree with any LGBT stance, you automatically become the bigot, the oppressor, the homophobe. To say Hinkle's talent is not worthy of being on the team and somehow she managed to lose her spot on the team due to her lack of soccer talent. I think that is a shame. Like a said before, had a Muslim made the team, and ventured forth to make the same decision not to wear the rainbow jersey. Everyone would be called Islamophobic.


They would never call a Muslim out, muslims throw gays off of buildings and I don’t remember the left saying much about it. Let’s ask Omar about gays.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 18, 2019)

espola said:


> They didn't.  She was invited and declined the opportunity.


Why did she deny it again?


----------



## espola (Jul 18, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Why did she deny it again?


Was that after she said “I’m essentially giving up the one dream little girls dream about their entire life."?


----------



## myself (Jul 18, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Why did she deny it again?


Because she didn't want to wear the "Pride" jerseys.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 18, 2019)

myself said:


> Because she didn't want to wear the "Pride" jerseys.


That doesn’t sound like a very good reason to me.
Is she pretty good?


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 18, 2019)

In 2017 Hinkle's club manager North Carolina Courage head coach Paul Riley has been quoted as saying that Hinkle has "been the best left back in the league this year, of that there's absolutely no question." While Hinkle did pass up on playing those games in which player were scheduled to sport the rainbow numbers as the team was celebrating the LGBTQ pride month. That didn't mean she wasn't available to play the next available games. She simply wasn't called back to play and it's pointless to speculate as to all the reasons why. People have reason's to believe that she wasn't good enough, that her faith, which may have made it difficult to be accepted and might have affected the teams chemistry and so on and so forth. I believe Dunn did a great job as a left back. Would Hinkle been better as a natural left back. We will never know. The USWNT has been amazing to watch and can't wait to see how far they can maintain this level of championship play. I have always been a proponent of playing the best players. You tend to get the best results. Only time will tell.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 18, 2019)

I d


espola said:


> Was that after she said “I’m essentially giving up the one dream little girls dream about their entire life."?


I don't know. Your the self proclaimed "smartest person on the forum" so you tell me..


----------



## espola (Jul 18, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> I d
> 
> I don't know. Your the self proclaimed "smartest person on the forum" so you tell me..


When and where did I ever self-proclaim that?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 18, 2019)

espola said:


> When and where did I ever self-proclaim that?


Not chasing you down another one of your rabbit holes.... your reputation is well known on this forum so I'll sit back and watch you pour more gasoline on it.


----------



## espola (Jul 18, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Not chasing you down another one of your rabbit holes.... your reputation is well known on this forum so I'll sit back and watch you pour more gasoline on it.


So, nothing then?  

No surprise there.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 19, 2019)

espola said:


> So, nothing then?
> 
> No surprise there.


Nice try Alice...


----------



## Poconos (Jul 19, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Not at all.  Exodus 21:24.
> 
> The last time I checked, the Constitution is the law of the land, and the bible is a book from which too many people selectively pick and choose passages to rationalize inappropriate behavior and justify the continuing oppression of others.


Except that leftists consider the Constitution a "living, breathing document", endlessly attempting to change it with activist judicial interpretations for purposes of political expediency.    Imagine if your lender informed you that your mortgage is "living, breathing document" and your interest rate just tripled.


----------



## Poconos (Jul 19, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I don't hate religious bigots.  Actually, I love them with all my heart.  I just hate their actions and therefore use the authority of my moral high ground to oppose their efforts to seek preferential treatment, just as they use what they think is religious high ground to oppose equality.  Do you understand now how ludicrous the "hate the sin but not the sinner" argument is?  It is just an excuse for religious bigots to feel better about themselves when they oppose the civil rights of others.  If you oppose equality and civil rights for the LGBT community and repeatedly speak out about it, as Hinkle does, you are by definition homophobic.  Religious bigots no longer get to frame the argument with their twisted logic without getting called out for it, as the patriot Ashlyn Harris made clear.   If you're a true Christian and think it is wrong to marry someone of the same sex, don't.  There is no legitimate reason to oppose someone else's constitutional right to do so.  None.
> 
> I didn't bring up Hinkle, and I'll stop talking about her here just as soon as others stop falsely accusing Ellis and USSF of excluding her because of her religion.  As soon as they stop falsely claiming that USSF is a public entity and therefore must allow homophobes like her to play even when they aren't good enough on the merits.  If you want to move on, then follow your advice instead of trying to tell me you really love the people you are seeking to deprive of their civil rights.  But as long as you want to keep talking about it, I'm here.


antifa is in the bldg


----------



## Poconos (Jul 19, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> Hate the sin, but not the sinner.  If you think that is ludicrous, then you really don't understand it. You are focusing on one type of sin, example, let's say a family member commits a crime while under the influence. I don't think people will hate the family member, but we can say that we hate that they allowed the sin of being under the influence to cloud their judgement and commit another sin, the crime. The freedom of will allows all of us the choice on how we decide to live. Yet somehow, if the choice to not wear a jersey that empowers a lifestyle that one's faith says is not the right choice. Why is it that homophobic. You simply don't agree and choose not to support it. Kind of like if we lived in a nation that allowed us the freedom of speech. Its a choice, it's and opinion, it's a lifestyle. Where in all this has anyone's civil rights been trampled and denied. The real problem is that as soon as you don't agree with any LGBT stance, you automatically become the bigot, the oppressor, the homophobe. To say Hinkle's talent is not worthy of being on the team and somehow she managed to lose her spot on the team due to her lack of soccer talent. I think that is a shame. Like a said before, had a Muslim made the team, and ventured forth to make the same decision not to wear the rainbow jersey. Everyone would be called Islamophobic.


consider who you're trying to reason with


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 19, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> Except that leftists consider the Constitution a "living, breathing document", endlessly attempting to change it with activist judicial interpretations for purposes of political expediency.    Imagine if your lender informed you that your mortgage is "living, breathing document" and your interest rate just tripled.


It's called an adjustable rate mortgage.  Save your faux-conservative rage.  You are a slave to a demagogue.  Just grab it in the pussy and accept it.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 21, 2019)

Hinkle seems to get along with her club teammates just fine...as well as her former college mates, etc.  Are we to assume that there were no lesbians on either team?  Every female soccer team in the NWSL has multiple gay players.  Your daughter's club team probably has at least one or two right now.  The issue isn't Hinkle's disagreement with gay marriage--something the "bigoted" Barack Obama disagreed with until late in his political career.  The issue is that she was forced into that personal moral decision because US Soccer (and Nike) decided to try and make money selling politically charged Rainbow jerseys and align politically with a large portion of their fan base.  (Certainly doesn't hurt that the head coach is gay and at least 7 of their players are too.)

Decisions like these reinforce the argument that the USWNT is less about being a sporting team/endeavor and more about being a PAC, just like MoveOn or CPAC.  I think the US men also wore Rainbow jerseys.  But I'm not aware of any other sport that has done so.  Never have seen US Swimming require rainbow speedos, or US Skiing require rainbow tights, or US softball (also a high participation lesbian sport) require rainbow uniforms.  So, it begs the question, why?  Many sports wear pink for cancer awareness, but that's not a political hot potato.  Everyone is for cancer awareness and cures.  And cancer strikes everyone -- gay, straight, black, white, etc.  But everyone is not gay or potentially gay.  So it's not an inclusive initiative on its face.  Then add the politics and it's just a confounding decision. 

As I mentioned previously, Canada was, proudly, way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights.  Our soccer teams have never donned rainbow jerseys.  Maybe we feel that our actions speak louder than a shirt with colorful numbers, and a nike logo of course.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 21, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Hinkle seems to get along with her club teammates just fine...as well as her former college mates, etc.  Are we to assume that there were no lesbians on either team?  Every female soccer team in the NWSL has multiple gay players.  Your daughter's club team probably has at least one or two right now.  The issue isn't Hinkle's disagreement with gay marriage--something the "bigoted" Barack Obama disagreed with until late in his political career.  The issue is that she was forced into that personal moral decision because US Soccer (and Nike) decided to try and make money selling politically charged Rainbow jerseys and align politically with a large portion of their fan base.  (Certainly doesn't hurt that the head coach is gay and at least 7 of their players are too.)
> 
> Decisions like these reinforce the argument that the USWNT is less about being a sporting team/endeavor and more about being a PAC, just like MoveOn or CPAC.  I think the US men also wore Rainbow jerseys.  But I'm not aware of any other sport that has done so.  Never have seen US Swimming require rainbow speedos, or US Skiing require rainbow tights, or US softball (also a high participation lesbian sport) require rainbow uniforms.  So, it begs the question, why?  Many sports wear pink for cancer awareness, but that's not a political hot potato.  Everyone is for cancer awareness and cures.  And cancer strikes everyone -- gay, straight, black, white, etc.  But everyone is not gay or potentially gay.  So it's not an inclusive initiative on its face.  Then add the politics and it's just a confounding decision.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, Canada was, proudly, way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights.  Our soccer teams have never donned rainbow jerseys.  Maybe we feel that our actions speak louder than a shirt with colorful numbers, and a nike logo of course.


I can understand and respect Hinkle’s decision. She thoughtfully did what she felt was right and she doesn’t deserve to be lambasted for it. But where do those that oppose draw the line? Is it ok to play for an organization that hosts gay pride nights and sells gay pride gear to fans? Does it only matter if the symbol is directly on your body?

I wonder if Hinkle considered that a player can wear that rainbow number on her jersey as an endorsement of equal human rights without condoning homosexuality.


----------



## Real Deal (Jul 21, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Hinkle seems to get along with her club teammates just fine...as well as her former college mates, etc.  Are we to assume that there were no lesbians on either team?  Every female soccer team in the NWSL has multiple gay players.  Your daughter's club team probably has at least one or two right now.  The issue isn't Hinkle's disagreement with gay marriage--something the "bigoted" Barack Obama disagreed with until late in his political career.  The issue is that she was forced into that personal moral decision because US Soccer (and Nike) decided to try and make money selling politically charged Rainbow jerseys and align politically with a large portion of their fan base.  (Certainly doesn't hurt that the head coach is gay and at least 7 of their players are too.)
> 
> Decisions like these reinforce the argument that the USWNT is less about being a sporting team/endeavor and more about being a PAC, just like MoveOn or CPAC.  I think the US men also wore Rainbow jerseys.  But I'm not aware of any other sport that has done so.  Never have seen US Swimming require rainbow speedos, or US Skiing require rainbow tights, or US softball (also a high participation lesbian sport) require rainbow uniforms.  So, it begs the question, why?  Many sports wear pink for cancer awareness, but that's not a political hot potato.  Everyone is for cancer awareness and cures.  And cancer strikes everyone -- gay, straight, black, white, etc.  But everyone is not gay or potentially gay.  So it's not an inclusive initiative on its face.  Then add the politics and it's just a confounding decision.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, Canada was, proudly, way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights.  Our soccer teams have never donned rainbow jerseys.  Maybe we feel that our actions speak louder than a shirt with colorful numbers, and a nike logo of course.


yeh ok.  but fyi: in some parts of THIS country, kids are still killed or bullied into killing themselves because they are gay.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 22, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> yeh ok.  but fyi: in some parts of THIS country, kids are still killed or bullied into killing themselves because they are gay.


I think everyone would get onboard with an anti-bullying campaign by US Soccer.  Since 1 in 3 children claim they have been bullied, this is not solely an LGBTQIAP+ issue.  

Do you think the USWNT would be content to put the slogan "Be Best" on their uniforms to support the fight against bullying, and promote child safety and well-being?  I expect they would not, but I will not claim that makes them "pro-bullying".


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I think everyone would get onboard with an anti-bullying campaign by US Soccer.  Since 1 in 3 children claim they have been bullied, this is not solely an LGBTQIAP+ issue.
> 
> Do you think the USWNT would be content to put the slogan "Be Best" on their uniforms to support the fight against bullying, and promote child safety and well-being?  I expect they would not, but I will not claim that makes them "pro-bullying".


Is that what that's for?  How exactly does "Be Best" fight against bullying?  I have seen nothing that would make me think that.

Does being against bullying include being against people who make public lies about others?


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 22, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Hinkle seems to get along with her club teammates just fine...as well as her former college mates, etc.  Are we to assume that there were no lesbians on either team?  Every female soccer team in the NWSL has multiple gay players.  Your daughter's club team probably has at least one or two right now.  The issue isn't Hinkle's disagreement with gay marriage--something the "bigoted" Barack Obama disagreed with until late in his political career.  The issue is that she was forced into that personal moral decision because US Soccer (and Nike) decided to try and make money selling politically charged Rainbow jerseys and align politically with a large portion of their fan base.  (Certainly doesn't hurt that the head coach is gay and at least 7 of their players are too.)
> 
> Decisions like these reinforce the argument that the USWNT is less about being a sporting team/endeavor and more about being a PAC, just like MoveOn or CPAC.  I think the US men also wore Rainbow jerseys.  But I'm not aware of any other sport that has done so.  Never have seen US Swimming require rainbow speedos, or US Skiing require rainbow tights, or US softball (also a high participation lesbian sport) require rainbow uniforms.  So, it begs the question, why?  Many sports wear pink for cancer awareness, but that's not a political hot potato.  Everyone is for cancer awareness and cures.  And cancer strikes everyone -- gay, straight, black, white, etc.  But everyone is not gay or potentially gay.  So it's not an inclusive initiative on its face.  Then add the politics and it's just a confounding decision.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, Canada was, proudly, way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights.  Our soccer teams have never donned rainbow jerseys.  Maybe we feel that our actions speak louder than a shirt with colorful numbers, and a nike logo of course.


The Canadian team doesn't need to wear rainbow jerseys because, as you admit, Canada is "way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights."  USSF forced Hinkle into a "moral decision" no more than Rosa Parks forced Montgomery County to make a "moral decision".

I get it.  You don't support LGBT equality and civil rights, and you don't want others to do so either.  On behalf of USSF, too bad.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 22, 2019)

espola said:


> Is that what that's for?  How exactly does "Be Best" fight against bullying?  I have seen nothing that would make me think that.
> 
> Does being against bullying include being against people who make public lies about others?


You took the bait, and unwittingly proved my point.


----------



## El Clasico (Jul 22, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> The Canadian team doesn't need to wear rainbow jerseys because, as you admit, Canada is "way ahead of the US and rest of the world on recognizing gay marriage and rights."  USSF forced Hinkle into a "moral decision" no more than Rosa Parks forced Montgomery County to make a "moral decision".
> 
> I get it.  You don't support LGBT equality and civil rights, and you don't want others to do so either.  On behalf of USSF, too bad.


On behalf of the Socal Soccer Forum, can I just say we are sorry and empathize with you.  It certainly appears to me that this is a very personal issue to you, as if you were bullied relentlessly in your youth for your orientation or possibly your own child is struggling with the issue and it is painful for you to watch, both as a parent and/or as someone who may be dealing with the emotional pain yourself.  Please understand that just because you may or may not be struggling with the issue, that doesn't mean that anyone that disagrees with you, or has a difference of opinion from you, is a bigot.  You seem to want to label anyone who differs from you a bigot.  Is that bullying?  If so, how is that different than what you might have experienced growing up?  If words and actions hurt you, consider that your words and actions could be hurting others. Just my perspective anyway.


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> You took the bait, and unwittingly proved my point.


What was your point?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 22, 2019)

espola said:


> What was your point?


That you need a hobby and it shouldn't be asking circular questions that you are smart enough to understand yourself or that you are capable of Googling the answer to.  My 10 year old son asks less questions than you and he is GENUINELY INTERESTED IN THE ANSWER.  You are just into being a contrarian and baiting people into circular arguments.  It's why I rarely answer questions that you direct to me because they are typically ones that you can answer yourself, and personally I am not around for you to get your rocks off.  

Your wife should be for that.  Cheers.


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That you need a hobby and it shouldn't be asking circular questions that you are smart enough to understand yourself or that you are capable of Googling the answer to.  My 10 year old son asks less questions than you and he is GENUINELY INTERESTED IN THE ANSWER.  You are just into being a contrarian and baiting people into circular arguments.  It's why I rarely answer questions that you direct to me because they are typically ones that you can answer yourself, and personally I am not around for you to get your rocks off.
> 
> Your wife should be for that.  Cheers.


What does that have to do with my questions about Be Best that were addressed to someone else?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 22, 2019)

espola said:


> What does that have to do with my questions about Be Best that were addressed to someone else?


You always insert yourself into other people's conversations.  I am returning the favor.  Are you really so dense as to not understand what he was saying (@Dos Equis is quite eloquent) or are you just doing your usual?  I think that it is the latter.  You can't be against an anti-bullying agenda and I am pretty sure that you are smart enough to understand how he was comparing it to the rainbow jersey thing.

That is my direct response to you for the month so you are going to have to wait until the college soccer season to ask me any more circular questions that I might choose to answer.

Have a great day!


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 22, 2019)

El Clasico said:


> On behalf of the Socal Soccer Forum, can I just say we are sorry and empathize with you.  It certainly appears to me that this is a very personal issue to you, as if you were bullied relentlessly in your youth for your orientation or possibly your own child is struggling with the issue and it is painful for you to watch, both as a parent and/or as someone who may be dealing with the emotional pain yourself.  Please understand that just because you may or may not be struggling with the issue, that doesn't mean that anyone that disagrees with you, or has a difference of opinion from you, is a bigot.  You seem to want to label anyone who differs from you a bigot.  Is that bullying?  If so, how is that different than what you might have experienced growing up?  If words and actions hurt you, consider that your words and actions could be hurting others. Just my perspective anyway.


Thank you for the misguided empathy, but it is unneeded.  The issue is not particularly personal to me, I am not gay and I have never faced any more bullying in my life than the next guy.  No one in my family has ever struggled with the issue.  I am just a person who supports civil rights and equality and is having fun with the bigots. 

If a person opposes civil rights and equality, as Hinkle does, by definition it makes them a bigot.  It is that simple.  The notion that anyone who stands up to bigotry is a bigot is ludicrous.  It is the argument people make when they don't want to face what they really are and are trying desperately to reframe the issue so that they don't have to confront it.  Unlike real bigots like Hinkle, no one here believes Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to get married based on her religion.  No one here believes she should be entitled to unfavorable tax treatment due to her religion.  No one here supports organizations that believe "people like Hinkle" suffer from mental illness and should be either locked up or wiped off the face of the earth due to their religion.  No one here is claiming Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to buy a cake or patronize any business because of her religion.  The reality is Hinkle and those like her want favorable treatment to others and use their book as an excuse to seek it.   The reality is that USSF has every right (legally and morally) to support equality.  If you want to support cancer treatment instead of equality, by all means go for it.  

The truth is Ashlyn Harris doesn't oppose Hinkle's right to get married or her right to be taxed equally.  She doesn't want to prevent Hinkle from marrying men.  She doesn't oppose any of Hinkle's civil rights.  She only opposes Hinkle's opposition to her civil rights.  Harris understands that it wasn't ok when Bob Jones pointed to the bible to justify the mistreatment of minorities, and it's not ok to justify the mistreatment of gays either.  Standing up for equality is not bigotry. The only bigots here are Hinkle and those who think they're entitled to preferential treatment.


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You always insert yourself into other people's conversations.  I am returning the favor.  Are you really so dense as to not understand what he was saying (@Dos Equis is quite eloquent) or are you just doing your usual?  I think that it is the latter.  You can't be against an anti-bullying agenda and I am pretty sure that you are smart enough to understand how he was comparing it to the rainbow jersey thing.
> 
> That is my direct response to you for the month so you are going to have to wait until the college soccer season to ask me any more circular questions that I might choose to answer.
> 
> Have a great day!


It looks like you are having a bad day.  Was it because I didn't believe your misconceptions about how RPI is calculated and then used by the NCAA selection committee?

BTW,  over on the men's side, there is a frequent poster to bigsoccer.com mens soccer forum named gauchodan who every year publishes a thorough analysis of every mens soccer game, and keeps it up to date at least once a day, including up-to-the-minute RPI calcualtions.  He also explains in messages to the forum how he does it and how he has determined the extra bonuses and penalties that the NCAA uses to tweak the RPI scores before the selections are made.  (For example, a bonus can be earned by beating a highly-ranked team on the road, and a penalty by losing to a lowly-ranked team at home.  The amount of the bonuses and penalties is subject to speculation, which makes for richer conversations on the forum.)

http://rpiupdatemenssoccer.blogspot.com/

Is there a similar site for the womens side?

And I now pray for gouchodan's good health and continuing ingerest in the sport, even though I am not really all that religious.

All hail gouchodan!


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 22, 2019)

Alright @espola I have finally gotten tired of you and blocked you.  I am having a great day and I don't want somebody with nothing to do to ruin it.

I suggest that you pop a Cialis and give your old lady a good day to!


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Alright @espola I have finally gotten tired of you and blocked you.  I am having a great day and I don't want somebody with nothing to do to ruin it.
> 
> I suggest that you pop a Cialis and give your old lady a good day to!


I have never had a need for any of those types of medications, even at my tender age of 72.  My great-grandfather had his last child at almost this age, in fact, long before anyone thought of such a possibility.  How is it working out for you?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 22, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> You took the bait, and unwittingly proved my point.


Espola does it all the time, he just doesn't realize it...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Alright @espola I have finally gotten tired of you and blocked you.  I am having a great day and I don't want somebody with nothing to do to ruin it.
> 
> I suggest that you pop a Cialis and give your old lady a good day to!


See what happens when you follow him down the rabbit hole?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 22, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Thank you for the misguided empathy, but it is unneeded.  The issue is not particularly personal to me, I am not gay and I have never faced any more bullying in my life than the next guy.  No one in my family has ever struggled with the issue.  I am just a person who supports civil rights and equality and is having fun with the bigots.
> 
> If a person opposes civil rights and equality, as Hinkle does, by definition it makes them a bigot.  It is that simple.  The notion that anyone who stands up to bigotry is a bigot is ludicrous.  It is the argument people make when they don't want to face what they really are and are trying desperately to reframe the issue so that they don't have to confront it.  Unlike real bigots like Hinkle, no one here believes Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to get married based on her religion.  No one here believes she should be entitled to unfavorable tax treatment due to her religion.  No one here supports organizations that believe "people like Hinkle" suffer from mental illness and should be either locked up or wiped off the face of the earth due to their religion.  No one here is claiming Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to buy a cake or patronize any business because of her religion.  The reality is Hinkle and those like her want favorable treatment to others and use their book as an excuse to seek it.   The reality is that USSF has every right (legally and morally) to support equality.  If you want to support cancer treatment instead of equality, by all means go for it.
> 
> The truth is Ashlyn Harris doesn't oppose Hinkle's right to get married or her right to be taxed equally.  She doesn't want to prevent Hinkle from marrying men.  She doesn't oppose any of Hinkle's civil rights.  She only opposes Hinkle's opposition to her civil rights.  Harris understands that it wasn't ok when Bob Jones pointed to the bible to justify the mistreatment of minorities, and it's not ok to justify the mistreatment of gays either.  Standing up for equality is not bigotry. The only bigots here are Hinkle and those who think they're entitled to preferential treatment.


You keep bringing up Hinkle and Civil Rights. What Civil Rights does she want to deny the lesbians on the USWNT?


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 22, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Thank you for the misguided empathy, but it is unneeded.  The issue is not particularly personal to me, I am not gay and I have never faced any more bullying in my life than the next guy.  No one in my family has ever struggled with the issue.  I am just a person who supports civil rights and equality and is having fun with the bigots.
> 
> If a person opposes civil rights and equality, as Hinkle does, by definition it makes them a bigot.  It is that simple.  The notion that anyone who stands up to bigotry is a bigot is ludicrous.  It is the argument people make when they don't want to face what they really are and are trying desperately to reframe the issue so that they don't have to confront it.  Unlike real bigots like Hinkle, no one here believes Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to get married based on her religion.  No one here believes she should be entitled to unfavorable tax treatment due to her religion.  No one here supports organizations that believe "people like Hinkle" suffer from mental illness and should be either locked up or wiped off the face of the earth due to their religion.  No one here is claiming Hinkle shouldn't be allowed to buy a cake or patronize any business because of her religion.  The reality is Hinkle and those like her want favorable treatment to others and use their book as an excuse to seek it.   The reality is that USSF has every right (legally and morally) to support equality.  If you want to support cancer treatment instead of equality, by all means go for it.
> 
> The truth is Ashlyn Harris doesn't oppose Hinkle's right to get married or her right to be taxed equally.  She doesn't want to prevent Hinkle from marrying men.  She doesn't oppose any of Hinkle's civil rights.  She only opposes Hinkle's opposition to her civil rights.  Harris understands that it wasn't ok when Bob Jones pointed to the bible to justify the mistreatment of minorities, and it's not ok to justify the mistreatment of gays either.  Standing up for equality is not bigotry. The only bigots here are Hinkle and those who think they're entitled to preferential treatment.


Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Unfortunately only you are defining Hinkle as a bigot. She is neither intolerant or hates as much as you believe. Her words and actions are based on her faith. Your rant on mental illness can be easily be hypocritical for not agreeing with your point of view.

As for preferential treatment, and bigotry. I get your position, but defending Harris who is more intolerant of Hinkle by definition makes her a bigot, and anyone that supports Harris is a bigot, by your definition. SMH


----------



## espola (Jul 22, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
> 
> Unfortunately only you are defining Hinkle as a bigot. She is neither intolerant or hates as much as you believe. Her words and actions are based on her faith. Your rant on mental illness can be easily be hypocritical for not agreeing with your point of view.
> 
> As for preferential treatment, and bigotry. I get your position, but defending Harris who is more intolerant of Hinkle by definition makes her a bigot, and anyone that supports Harris is a bigot, by your definition. SMH





ChargerPride said:


> Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
> 
> Unfortunately only you are defining Hinkle as a bigot. She is neither intolerant or hates as much as you believe. Her words and actions are based on her faith. Your rant on mental illness can be easily be hypocritical for not agreeing with your point of view.
> 
> As for preferential treatment, and bigotry. I get your position, but defending Harris who is more intolerant of Hinkle by definition makes her a bigot, and anyone that supports Harris is a bigot, by your definition. SMH


Did you get dizzy standing on your head while you were typing that?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 22, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
> 
> Unfortunately only you are defining Hinkle as a bigot. She is neither intolerant or hates as much as you believe. Her words and actions are based on her faith. Your rant on mental illness can be easily be hypocritical for not agreeing with your point of view.
> 
> As for preferential treatment, and bigotry. I get your position, but defending Harris who is more intolerant of Hinkle by definition makes her a bigot, and anyone that supports Harris is a bigot, by your definition. SMH


You probably didn’t read the whole definition of bigot. Just found a few words that he agreed with and used those.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 22, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> You probably didn’t read the whole definition of bigot. Just found a few words that he agreed with and used those.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 22, 2019)

espola said:


> Did you get dizzy standing on your head while you were typing that?


Are you seeing double, you should have your eyes checked.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 22, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> You keep bringing up Hinkle and Civil Rights. What Civil Rights does she want to deny the lesbians on the USWNT?


None.  She'd love to play for the USWNT, just not during that one or two games when they wear the rainbow jersey.  I still have not read any good reason for US Soccer mandating their players wear a Pride jersey.  Can you imagine your soccer club mandating that the kids will wear rainbow socks in honor of gays and lesbians?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of soccer, not community organizing.  My argument is not a philosophical one, it is pure business/sport.

All you need to know about Ashlyn Harris is her choice for another jersey promotion by Nike/US Soccer....remember when all the players chose to honor an iconic woman on the back of their jersey?  Guess who Ashlyn Harris chose....wait for it....no, not Sally Ride, nor JK Rowling, nor Mother Teresa, nor Maya Angelou...other players understandably chose these powerful women.  Ashlyn Harris' thoughtful and inspiring choice?  

Cardi B.  brrr brrr


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 22, 2019)

oh canada said:


> None.  She'd love to play for the USWNT, just not during that one or two games when they wear the rainbow jersey.  I still have not read any good reason for US Soccer mandating their players wear a Pride jersey.  Can you imagine your soccer club mandating that the kids will wear rainbow socks in honor of gays and lesbians?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of soccer, not community organizing.  My argument is not a philosophical one, it is pure business/sport.
> 
> All you need to know about Ashlyn Harris is her choice for another jersey promotion by Nike/US Soccer....remember when all the players chose to honor an iconic woman on the back of their jersey?  Guess who Ashlyn Harris chose....wait for it....no, not Sally Ride, nor JK Rowling, nor Mother Teresa, nor Maya Angelou...other players understandably chose these powerful women.  Ashlyn Harris' thoughtful and inspiring choice?
> 
> Cardi B.  brrr brrr


Well put... and major props to Canada. My son just told me that Instagram is taking away the like feature in Canada. They felt it was creating too much pressure on young people to be "liked". I guess it's a trial for a few months then they plan on rolling it out across the board.

I just hope Dom doesn't follow in their footsteps...


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 22, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> You always insert yourself into other people's conversations.  I am returning the favor.  Are you really so dense as to not understand what he was saying (@Dos Equis is quite eloquent) or are you just doing your usual?  I think that it is the latter.  You can't be against an anti-bullying agenda and I am pretty sure that you are smart enough to understand how he was comparing it to the rainbow jersey thing.
> 
> That is my direct response to you for the month so you are going to have to wait until the college soccer season to ask me any more circular questions that I might choose to answer.
> 
> Have a great day!


Is it that time already?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 22, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Espola does it all the time, he just doesn't realize it...


Are you sure you aren’t talking about him wetting his pants?
 He knows exactly what he is doing in here.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 22, 2019)

Multi Sport said:


> Well put... and major props to Canada. My son just told me that Instagram is taking away the like feature in Canada. They felt it was creating too much pressure on young people to be "liked". I guess it's a trial for a few months then they plan on rolling it out across the board.
> 
> I just hope Dom doesn't follow in their footsteps...


pretty sure IG doing that here in US too.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 22, 2019)

oh canada said:


> None.  She'd love to play for the USWNT, just not during that one or two games when they wear the rainbow jersey.  I still have not read any good reason for US Soccer mandating their players wear a Pride jersey.  Can you imagine your soccer club mandating that the kids will wear rainbow socks in honor of gays and lesbians?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of soccer, not community organizing.  My argument is not a philosophical one, it is pure business/sport.
> 
> All you need to know about Ashlyn Harris is her choice for another jersey promotion by Nike/US Soccer....remember when all the players chose to honor an iconic woman on the back of their jersey?  Guess who Ashlyn Harris chose....wait for it....no, not Sally Ride, nor JK Rowling, nor Mother Teresa, nor Maya Angelou...other players understandably chose these powerful women.  Ashlyn Harris' thoughtful and inspiring choice?
> 
> Cardi B.  brrr brrr


I had to look Cardi B up!


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> ...I still have not read any good reason for US Soccer mandating their players wear a Pride jersey.  Can you imagine your soccer club mandating that the kids will wear rainbow socks in honor of gays and lesbians?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of soccer, not community organizing.  My argument is not a philosophical one, it is pure business/sport....


Support for equality and civil rights are very good reasons.  In fact, they're the best possible reasons.  You just don't think they are, but that does not surprise me.  

Can you imagine if MLB required everyone to support civil rights (such as making everyone wear Jackie Robinson's number one day every year)?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of baseball, not community organizing.  

If your argument were really a pure business/sport argument, you would concede that rainbow jerseys are a great idea, just as #42 jerseys are a great idea for MLB.  Rainbow jerseys make USSF money, they raise awareness for civil rights, and they have the added benefit of bringing the cockroaches out of the shadows.  Few homophobes buy tickets to WNT games and only one wants to play for the team anyway, and USSF obviously has no need for them.  USSF loses nothing by virtue of the rainbow jerseys.  In fact, the more angry a handful of people like you get, the more attention USSF receives, the more rainbow jerseys it sells, and the more lesbians play the sport knowing they are welcome.  Keep up the good work.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 23, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I had to look Cardi B up!


don't admit that to your kids, otherwise you will immediately get the "out of touch old guy" look   I guess Ashlyn Harris is raising awareness, lol.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 23, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Support for equality and civil rights are very good reasons.  In fact, they're the best possible reasons.  You just don't think they are, but that does not surprise me.
> 
> Can you imagine if MLB required everyone to support civil rights (such as making everyone wear Jackie Robinson's number one day every year)?  They wouldn't...and not because they're bigots, but because they have the common sense to recognize that they are in the business of baseball, not community organizing.
> 
> If your argument were really a pure business/sport argument, you would concede that rainbow jerseys are a great idea, just as #42 jerseys are a great idea for MLB.  Rainbow jerseys make USSF money, they raise awareness for civil rights, and they have the added benefit of bringing the cockroaches out of the shadows.  Few homophobes buy tickets to WNT games and only one wants to play for the team anyway, and USSF obviously has no need for them.  USSF loses nothing by virtue of the rainbow jerseys.  In fact, the more angry a handful of people like you get, the more attention USSF receives, the more rainbow jerseys it sells, and the more lesbians play the sport knowing they are welcome.  Keep up the good work.


Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL. 

For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?  

Alas, I will try to help him learn one last time with his latest example:

EOL flawed argument #1:  Jackie Robinson jerseys a parallel to rainbow jerseys.
The simple mind thinks, oh, MLB had everyone wear jerseys different than their customary duds, so that is the same as USWNT mandating players wear rainbow numbers.  And they both involve numbers, so that's a good argument.  And they both involve classes of people who have been/are discriminated against.

Well, no.  A deeper understanding of analysis and logic demonstrates that these two scenarios are apples and oranges.  For one, JR was a baseball player.  MLB is the league he played in.  MLB at the time he played did not allow black players (not only African Americans).  Therefore, JR became the first black baseball player in MLB.  I could go on...but MLB is celebrating one of its own players, for a historical event that actually happened, and collaterally implies that it should have never happened.  It's not just a jersey day but all MLB ballparks have a #42 in the outfield and I believe no player can wear the number on any team beyond that day.  That is a message, not a movement.  If USWNT wants all players to wear #20 because of barriers that Abby Wambach broke as a gay player, then you have apples to apples.  Make sense?  That wouldn't happen of course because AW in no way can be compared to JR.  Last, one of the biggest flaws of making that comparison is that MLB is a private league.  They are free to do whatever they want as long as it is legal.  USWNT is not the NWSL nor the Portland Thorns.  USA Baseball is not the one issuing the #42 mandate for its players.  If they did, then the argument would be more relevant.

That's my last lesson for this student.  "Can lead a horse to water..."  With that, I will retire to my preferred summer drink of Molson in the backyard shade.  Enjoy the day everyone!


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL.
> 
> For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?
> 
> ...


EOL thinks linear. Anyone else’s perception that does not travel within their range will always be wrong. No reason to engage them because it’s not a reciprocal dialogue.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> don't admit that to your kids, otherwise you will immediately get the "out of touch old guy" look   I guess Ashlyn Harris is raising awareness, lol.


I did recognize her but had no idea where her notoriety came from.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL.
> 
> For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?
> 
> ...


I had a Golden Retriever named Molson...

Your post is spot on...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL.
> 
> For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?
> 
> ...



Great post!  UCLA has the #42 retired for every sport.  Jackie Robinson was a letterman in an incredible 4 sports there!


----------



## Poconos (Jul 23, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> EOL thinks linear. Anyone else’s perception that does not travel within their range will always be wrong. No reason to engage them because it’s not a reciprocal dialogue.


his favorite part of all arguments is when he gets to scream bigot.  good times.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> his favorite part of all arguments is when he gets to scream bigot.  good times.


Ha! That’s their new mantra. It continuously  changes.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> ...I will retire to my preferred summer drink of Molson in the backyard shade.  Enjoy the day everyone!


I can appreciate a Molson Export -- reminds me of the late '80's and early '90's, drinking my way around the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, watching Ayrton Senna battle Alain Prost.


----------



## Dos Equis (Jul 23, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Great post!  UCLA has the #42 retired for every sport.  Jackie Robinson was a letterman in an incredible 4 sports there!


And cheers to Hall of Famer Mariano Rivera, the last player to wear #42 in the majors.   Sometimes things just work out as they should.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 23, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I can appreciate a Molson Export -- reminds me of the late '80's and early '90's, drinking my way around the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, watching Ayrton Senna battle Alain Prost.


Montreal is a beautiful city, glad you can reminisce.  Always surprised how few Americans have gone north of the border.  I get it during winter, but Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. are beautiful cities when thawed.  A lot easier and cheaper than Europe too.  Same time zones, etc.  From SoCal, Vancouver is an easy and very worthwhile trip.  A lot of Yankees saw the city at its best during the WWC 4 years ago.


----------



## CaliKlines (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Montreal is a beautiful city, glad you can reminisce.  Always surprised how few Americans have gone north of the border.  I get it during winter, but Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. are beautiful cities when thawed.  A lot easier and cheaper than Europe too.  Same time zones, etc.  From SoCal, Vancouver is an easy and very worthwhile trip.  A lot of Yankees saw the city at its best during the WWC 4 years ago.


Quebec City is a great place to spend part of the Christmas holidays! Le Massif for skiing is a short bus ride away. And it is all relatively inexpensive. Plus, Molson Canadian is stronger in the Great White North, eh?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> I can appreciate a Molson Export -- reminds me of the late '80's and early '90's, drinking my way around the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, watching Ayrton Senna battle Alain Prost.


Liked Senna. I was a Nigel Mansel fan.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Montreal is a beautiful city, glad you can reminisce.  Always surprised how few Americans have gone north of the border.  I get it during winter, but Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. are beautiful cities when thawed.  A lot easier and cheaper than Europe too.  Same time zones, etc.  From SoCal, Vancouver is an easy and very worthwhile trip.  A lot of Yankees saw the city at its best during the WWC 4 years ago.


My uncle has a doctorate from  the Uof M. What field of education are you in?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 23, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL.
> 
> For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?
> 
> ...


Do they still make Molson Ice?


----------



## oh canada (Jul 24, 2019)

CaliKlines said:


> Quebec City is a great place to spend part of the Christmas holidays! Le Massif for skiing is a short bus ride away. And it is all relatively inexpensive. Plus, Molson Canadian is stronger in the Great White North, eh?


True, very true.



LASTMAN14 said:


> My uncle has a doctorate from  the Uof M. What field of education are you in?


Great school!  Economics.  There is talk that the Tampa Bay Rays MLB team may play some/half of their games in Montreal again.  (Rays are the reincarnation of the Expos.)  That would be something and the city would love it.



LASTMAN14 said:


> Do they still make Molson Ice?


You betcha!  Not a huge fan, but have friends that's all they drink in summer especially.
https://drizly.com/beer/lager/pale-lager/molson-ice/p9403


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> True, very true.
> 
> 
> Great school!  Economics.  There is talk that the Tampa Bay Rays MLB team may play some/half of their games in Montreal again.  (Rays are the reincarnation of the Expos.)  That would be something and the city would love it.
> ...



"Poor"

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/433/1359/

The Rays ownership couldn't put up a viable team in either city, so their apparently serious solution is for both cities to build them new stadiums.  One facet of their split-season plan that might work to their advantage is that they could schedule their games so that they play in whichever city is likely to have the better weather -- spring and fall in Florida, summer in Montreal.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Educators like myself have a weakness.  We always feel like we can help a person learn no matter how dense and no matter how many times they demonstrate the incapacity to learn.  It's still summer break and I am feeling charitable today, so I am falling victim to this weakness with EOL.
> 
> For the past year, in post after post, EOL demonstrates that he/she just hasn't learned the skills of analytical and logical reasoning.  It's too bad really because he writes pretty well.  So, kudos to his grammar teachers.  But something happened during those reasoning lessons.  Not sure.  It's possible that just might be a weakness.  We all have them as referenced above.  Or, maybe he's still in high school and hasn't got there yet?
> 
> ...


Teaching Sunday school does not make you an educator.

The WNT absolutely plays in a league, just like MLB teams. It is a league operated and overseen by another private company which you probably know as FIFA.  USSF is literally no different than the Dodgers, although I understand that small minds cannot get past the reflexive jingoistic impulses that cloud their judgment every time a private business slaps the words USA and the red, white, and blue onto a product. I bet people like you get really jingoey when the Padres wear their jerseys supporting the military.

MLB requiring players to wear 42 jerseys is exactly the same as the WNT requiring players wear rainbow jerseys, with the exception they are supporting equality for different historically oppressed minorities.  Regardless of how you misrepresent the purpose for MLB and USSF requiring its players to wear the specific jerseys, the fact is that both are doing so for the exact same reason - to show support for equality.  Of course, people know better than to oppose equality and civil rights when it relates to blacks, but they think it is still ok as to gays.  So they continue creating excuses in their minds and engaging in mental gymnastics in order to rationalize their opposition to full civil rights because the alternative - and reality - that they're a bigot is not something they will ever admit.  It is the same reason you don't touch the issue of USATF supporting black history month.  Or the US Chess Federation supporting Jews. There is nothing wrong with any of that. 

This is a very simple concept.  USSF is a private company.  The LA Dodgers are a private company.  Both play in leagues operated by a private entity.  Both have every legal and moral right to support equality, and they do.  Hinkle is a homophobe who opposes civil rights.  Fundamentally, you and others like you know deep down that opposing civil rights is wrong but, you cannot reconcile that with the fact that your god says it is ok - and even said gay people must be stoned to death right up until he changed his mind and his kid apparently said you don't need to do that anymore. Well, that isn't good enough.

Unlike you, I harbor no illusions that you will learn from anything I am saying.  If you think a god tells you it is ok to oppose equality, no amount of logic and reason can help you.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 24, 2019)

I see a trend, alot of Heterophobes out there, sounds like bigotry to me.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Great post!  UCLA has the #42 retired for every sport.  Jackie Robinson was a letterman in an incredible 4 sports there!


You inadvertently raise a very interesting point.  Did you know UCLA baseball also makes its players wear 42 on their hats every year?  So here we have the set of facts the bigots were looking for and were trying so hard to rationalize some justification to oppose rainbow jerseys.  Specifically, we have a sports team run by a public entity and supported by taxpayer dollars that is forcing players to wear a uniform that directly supports civil rights.  Does anyone want to step up to the proverbial plate and oppose what UCLA is doing?  Or do they only have a problem with uniforms that support civil rights for gay folk? 

Do the bigots still think a "public" sports team cannot or should not require players to wear a jersey supporting civil rights at all?  Do the bigots still think it is "political" for a team that represents the public to require that players wear a jersey supporting civil rights, or does it only become "political" when it is a civil right they oppose?  Do the bigots still think an amateur sports team should stay "in the business" of sports and stay out of community organizing?  Would the same people who "respect" Hinkle for refusing to wear a rainbow jersey also "respect" a UCLA player who refused to don a 42 hat?   Let the cerebral pretzel twisting re-commence. 

Just admit it folks.  You support 42 hats at UCLA because you support equality for one oppressed minority group, but you oppose rainbow numbers because you oppose equality for another.   You do it because your god tells you to oppose equality for an oppressed minority group, so you do it.  Admit what Hinkle isn't afraid to.  Otherwise, your god may judge you harshly for all the excuses you keep making.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> You inadvertently raise a very interesting point.  Did you know UCLA baseball also makes its players wear 42 on their hats every year?  So here we have the set of facts the bigots were looking for and were trying so hard to rationalize some justification to oppose rainbow jerseys.  Specifically, we have a sports team run by a public entity and supported by taxpayer dollars that is forcing players to wear a uniform that directly supports civil rights.  Does anyone want to step up to the proverbial plate and oppose what UCLA is doing?  Or do they only have a problem with uniforms that support civil rights for gay folk?
> 
> Do the bigots still think a "public" sports team cannot or should not require players to wear a jersey supporting civil rights at all?  Do the bigots still think it is "political" for a team that represents the public to require that players wear a jersey supporting civil rights, or does it only become "political" when it is a civil right they oppose?  Do the bigots still think an amateur sports team should stay "in the business" of sports and stay out of community organizing?  Would the same people who "respect" Hinkle for refusing to wear a rainbow jersey also "respect" a UCLA player who refused to don a 42 hat?   Let the cerebral pretzel twisting re-commence.
> 
> Just admit it folks.  You support 42 hats at UCLA because you support equality for one oppressed minority group, but you oppose rainbow numbers because you oppose equality for another.   You do it because your god tells you to oppose equality for an oppressed minority group, so you do it.  Admit what Hinkle isn't afraid to.  Otherwise, your god may judge you harshly for all the excuses you keep making.


Flawed argument.  No taxpayer dollars pay for athletic scholarships at UCLA.  Jackie Robinson was a student at UCLA.  You keep reaching hard on this one.  You are clearly lying about your personal stake in this issue.  Keep trying to come up with an obscure scenario.

I fully support LGBTQ rights.  My daughter has even schooled me on the significance of "pronouns" (for those that aren't sure what I am referring to ask your teenage daughter about it).


----------



## outside! (Jul 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> No taxpayer dollars pay for athletic scholarships at UCLA.


I also fully support all basic human rights (which include all minorities). But any student that goes to a taxpayer supported school is benefiting from taxpayer dollars. For that matter, so are all of us.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 24, 2019)

outside! said:


> I also fully support all basic human rights (which include all minorities). But any student that goes to a taxpayer supported school is benefiting from taxpayer dollars. For that matter, so are all of us.


That is not true when the athletic department has fully endowed scholarships.  What this means is that the athletic department pays the school for each student unlike at some schools where they get a waiver.  Athletes are some of the most profitable students at UCLA!  Not to mention that the athletic department makes money!


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Flawed argument.  No taxpayer dollars pay for athletic scholarships at UCLA.  Jackie Robinson was a student at UCLA.  You keep reaching hard on this one.  You are clearly lying about your personal stake in this issue.  Keep trying to come up with an obscure scenario.
> 
> I fully support LGBTQ rights.  My daughter has even schooled me on the significance of "pronouns" (for those that aren't sure what I am referring to ask your teenage daughter about it).


Player scholarships constitute only a portion of the athletic budget.  UCLA sports programs are very much subsidized with public money even if donors and Under Armour pay for the scholarships and then some.  The mere fact they play on property owned by the taxpayers of the State of California makes it more our business than the private USSF making people wear rainbow jerseys.  Of course, you are forgetting that I'm not the one taking the position that a public entity shouldn't be allowed to use #42 hats if an apparel company pays for them.  In fact, I think both are great ideas.  The more support for equality, the better.  Ironically, if you're taking the position that it's ok for a sports team to require players wear jerseys if a private company pays for them, also great, because Nike pays for the rainbow jerseys.

Seriously, what position are you taking exactly?  A public entity should not support equality on uniforms unless an apparel company pays for them?  A public entity can support equality but a private one can't?  It's ok to support equality on uniforms so long as they tie it to one person who previously played for the team?  Does the patriot Ashlyn Harris meet your standards?  I mean, she's been a way bigger contributor to the WNT than Jackie Robinson ever was for the UCLA baseball team, since he only hit .097.  Of course, if the rule is that a team can only support a civil right if it is tied to a player who played for the team, how do you explain the Texas Rangers wearing #42 jerseys?  They didn't even exist when Robinson played.  And how does it explain the Padres honoring our military?  That's not one person.  What kind of messed up cause is it to support our military industrial complex anyway?  How can UC Davis school of law name their school after MLK Jr?  Dude didn't even go there.  Does the "must have been a prior contributor" rule only apply to sports teams but not law schools?

Ha ha, rainbow jerseys just keep coming, and Hinkle keeps going nowhere.  If you really think Hinkle would have played in the WC if she'd just kept her mouth shut, hopefully all the bigots out there learn something from that.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 24, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Player scholarships constitute only a portion of the athletic budget.  UCLA sports programs are very much subsidized with public money even if donors and Under Armour pay for the scholarships and then some.  The mere fact they play on property owned by the taxpayers of the State of California makes it more our business than the private USSF making people wear rainbow jerseys.  Of course, you are forgetting that I'm not the one taking the position that a public entity shouldn't be allowed to use #42 hats if an apparel company pays for them.  In fact, I think both are great ideas.  The more support for equality, the better.  Ironically, if you're taking the position that it's ok for a sports team to require players wear jerseys if a private company pays for them, also great, because Nike pays for the rainbow jerseys.
> 
> Seriously, what position are you taking exactly?  A public entity should not support equality on uniforms unless an apparel company pays for them?  A public entity can support equality but a private one can't?  It's ok to support equality on uniforms so long as they tie it to one person who previously played for the team?  Does the patriot Ashlyn Harris meet your standards?  I mean, she's been a way bigger contributor to the WNT than Jackie Robinson ever was for the UCLA baseball team, since he only hit .097.  Of course, if the rule is that a team can only support a civil right if it is tied to a player who played for the team, how do you explain the Texas Rangers wearing #42 jerseys?  They didn't even exist when Robinson played.  And how does it explain the Padres honoring our military?  That's not one person.  What kind of messed up cause is it to support our military industrial complex anyway?  How can UC Davis school of law name their school after MLK Jr?  Dude didn't even go there.  Does the "must have been a prior contributor" rule only apply to sports teams but not law schools?
> 
> Ha ha, rainbow jerseys just keep coming, and Hinkle keeps going nowhere.  If you really think Hinkle would have played in the WC if she'd just kept her mouth shut, hopefully all the bigots out there learn something from that.


You really reached deeply for that one.  I won’t bother giving you the Rangers’ connection to JR because it is pretty obvious what it was.  I also won’t bother to respond to the statement about the athletic budget, because it is very clear that you don’t know what you are talking about (I can Google shit too).  You are arguing about the wrong set of facts so like when my ten year old wants to argue I am going to just consider it as beneath me.

What I will say is if you think Ashlynn Harris is a patriot you clearly have never met an actual patriot.

I support some of your agenda but you are clearly the wrong person to be preaching the message.


----------



## ChargerPride (Jul 24, 2019)

To put Harris on a pedestal and look up to her after her comments and call her a patriot, is one of the most ignorant things I have read.

Obianuju Ekeocha, a public speaker and founder of Culture of Life Africa, was the person who shared an old video clip about Hinkle.  In that clip Hinkle speaks about being called up to the national team and then declining it since they were wearing LGBTQ Pride Month jerseys.

Ekeocha wrote that “Apparently, the US women’s Football team is not a very welcoming place for Christians.” The remark was not prompted by anything current Hinkle said or did, or by any recent news coverage of the year-old comments.

Yet Harris puts Hinkle on blast in her tirade, and Harris is a patriot, attacking a player who didn't say anything about Harris or the team. Still SMH.


----------



## Real Deal (Jul 24, 2019)

ChargerPride said:


> To put Harris on a pedestal and look up to her after her comments and call her a patriot, is one of the most ignorant things I have read.
> 
> Obianuju Ekeocha, a public speaker and founder of Culture of Life Africa, was the person who shared an old video clip about Hinkle.  In that clip Hinkle speaks about being called up to the national team and then declining it since they were wearing LGBTQ Pride Month jerseys.
> 
> ...


Honestly.  There are gay Christians too.  WTHeck.  What year is it? Feel like we we in the dark ages.

Wish they had just worn the rainbow jerseys, but allowed her not to.  Then we wouldn't be talking about this ridiculous issue.  They did have her to come back in to a camp, but you all seem to be ignoring that fact.  The coach finally determined she wasn't what she wanted, like she did with many others.  And then they won the World Cup.


----------



## outside! (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That is not true when the athletic department has fully endowed scholarships.  What this means is that the athletic department pays the school for each student unlike at some schools where they get a waiver.  Athletes are some of the most profitable students at UCLA!  Not to mention that the athletic department makes money!


The school would not exist without taxpayer funding. No school, no teams. All of the students benefit from taxpayer dollars.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> Honestly.  There are gay Christians too.  WTHeck.  What year is it? Feel like we we in the dark ages.
> 
> Wish they had just worn the rainbow jerseys, but allowed her not to.  Then we wouldn't be talking about this ridiculous issue.  They did have her to come back in to a camp, but you all seem to be ignoring that fact.  The coach finally determined she wasn't what she wanted, like she did with many others.  And then they won the World Cup.


Did the coach give her a shot?  She didn't play a minute.  Sort of like she gave Casey Short "a shot."  Jill decides who she wants regardless of how they play.  Crystal Dunn was one of the best players in the lead up to the World Cup in 2015 but she was left off for older players who didn't even play.  Please explain to me a good reason why you leave one of your best players in qualifying off of a roster in favor of someone that you don't even play and never intended to play?

Let's be honest here.  She invited her into camp likely to not appear that she was discriminating against her due to her views.  The actual NWSL numbers say that she has been the best leftback in the league over the last 2 years.  The actual NWSL numbers say that Alex Morgan, and others, are average to below average in the US professional league, yet they apparently are the best players that we have.  Yes we won, however, I am convinced that any decent coach can pick 24 US pro players and win.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

outside! said:


> The school would not exist without taxpayer funding. No school, no teams. All of the students benefit from taxpayer dollars.


That is a silly argument.  So even though no taxpayer dollars are consumed by a program AND they pay the school money for every athlete, your argument is that it is still eating up taxpayer dollars?  Wow.  So Stanford, $C and Harvard (which receive federal funding too) are in the same category because the vast majority of their money comes from federal or state sources?

Your argument is seriously flawed and shows that you don't know how Power 5 conference athletic departments are run.....


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 25, 2019)

Real Deal said:


> Honestly.  There are gay Christians too.  WTHeck.  What year is it? Feel like we we in the dark ages.
> 
> Wish they had just worn the rainbow jerseys, but allowed her not to.  Then we wouldn't be talking about this ridiculous issue.  They did have her to come back in to a camp, but you all seem to be ignoring that fact.  The coach finally determined she wasn't what she wanted, like she did with many others.  And then they won the World Cup.


It does not matter to religious bigots that USSF invited her back to camp, although that is compelling proof that she did not make the WC team because she isn't good enough, rather than due to her bigotry.  They ignore that she was not an elite player in HS who was never invited to play on youth NTs or even recruited by a power program.  They ignore that she was never better than a 3rd team All-American in college, which made her maybe the 30th best player her own age.  They ignore that she was never called up to play in any meaningful games even before her publicity stunt, but was only called in for a handful of games and a camp just like scores of other fringe players to whom USSF provides a nominal opportunity to impress but who also get cut.  They ignore that she was not good enough to make first team in the NWSL in 2018.  Or second team either.  They ignore, in fact, that she has *never* made first or second team NWSL.  They ignore that one of her teammates was actually good enough to make one of the NWSL teams, but even she wasn't good enough to make the WNT.  It does not matter how compelling the facts are.  Bigots will do, say and believe anything to oppose equality.  When definitive proof establishes that she is not good enough to make the team on merit, they skip that part.  When definitive proof exists that USSF invited her back to camp even after Hinkle's self-promotion campaign, they skip that part also.  When definitive proof exists that numerous WNT players are deeply religious but still make the team, they skip that also.  When they speculate that the WNT will go down in flames because Ellis  discriminates against Christians and favors lesser lesbian atheists like herself, they ignore that she has steered the WNT to the most successful run in its entire history and is therefore obviously making the best possible personnel decisions. 

Hinkle is just a pawn being used by a bunch of bigots to oppose civil rights, nothing more.  I'd actually feel bad for her if she weren't such an awful person.


----------



## Poconos (Jul 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Teaching Sunday school does not make you an educator.
> 
> The WNT absolutely plays in a league, just like MLB teams. It is a league operated and overseen by another private company which you probably know as FIFA.  USSF is literally no different than the Dodgers, although I understand that small minds cannot get past the reflexive jingoistic impulses that cloud their judgment every time a private business slaps the words USA and the red, white, and blue onto a product. I bet people like you get really jingoey when the Padres wear their jerseys supporting the military.
> 
> ...


do you spout off like this to muslims too?


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Did the coach give her a shot?  She didn't play a minute.  Sort of like she gave Casey Short "a shot."  Jill decides who she wants regardless of how they play.  Crystal Dunn was one of the best players in the lead up to the World Cup in 2015 but she was left off for older players who didn't even play.  Please explain to me a good reason why you leave one of your best players in qualifying off of a roster in favor of someone that you don't even play and never intended to play?
> 
> Let's be honest here.  She invited her into camp likely to not appear that she was discriminating against her due to her views.  The actual NWSL numbers say that she has been the best leftback in the league over the last 2 years.  The actual NWSL numbers say that Alex Morgan, and others, are average to below average in the US professional league, yet they apparently are the best players that we have.  Yes we won, however, I am convinced that any decent coach can pick 24 US pro players and win.


You lost it right after "let's be honest here".


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That is a silly argument.  So even though no taxpayer dollars are consumed by a program AND they pay the school money for every athlete, your argument is that it is still eating up taxpayer dollars?  Wow.  So Stanford, $C and Harvard (which receive federal funding too) are in the same category because the vast majority of their money comes from federal or state sources?
> 
> Your argument is seriously flawed and shows that you don't know how Power 5 conference athletic departments are run.....


He pulled the Power 5 card.  Time to whip out the Shield Sphere card that has been hiding in the deck.


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> do you spout off like this to muslims too?


Relevance?


----------



## Poconos (Jul 25, 2019)

espola said:


> Relevance?


play your game with someone else, i've seen your track history, you aren't going to bait me with feigned ignorance


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> play your game with someone else, i've seen your track history, you aren't going to bait me with feigned ignorance


It seems that you have responded with "none".


----------



## outside! (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> That is a silly argument.  So even though no taxpayer dollars are consumed by a program AND they pay the school money for every athlete, your argument is that it is still eating up taxpayer dollars?  Wow.  So Stanford, $C and Harvard (which receive federal funding too) are in the same category because the vast majority of their money comes from federal or state sources?
> 
> Your argument is seriously flawed and shows that you don't know how Power 5 conference athletic departments are run.....


And your argument is accounting smoke and mirrors. The land for the field and all the associated buildings were paid for by taxpayers. All of the infrastructure required for a university was paid for by taxpayers. Like I said, no university, no athletic program.


----------



## watfly (Jul 25, 2019)

I hate to interrupt this virtue signaling and false equivalency debate (its actually quite entertaining), but I think we should also look at the big picture.

How cool is it that a women's team has captured the spirit and interest of men, women, boys, girls and gender _____.  What other US women's team in any other sport has done that at the level the the USWNT has repeatedly done?  I can't think of a women's team that comes close.  Again, how cool is that?  Yes there was some politics and questionable behavior involved with the team, but how about a class act like Carli Lloyd comforting the Thai keeper after the blowout.  The interest and excitement for the team is a win for women/girls, LGBT, soccer in the US and Americans as a whole.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

outside! said:


> And your argument is accounting smoke and mirrors. The land for the field and all the associated buildings were paid for by taxpayers. All of the infrastructure required for a university was paid for by taxpayers. Like I said, no university, no athletic program.


So If the team pays for the facilities that they used, paid for the building that they occupy, and contribute a net positive to the overall budget it is smoke and mirrors?  The accounting trick is that the athletic department intentionally showed a net zero (exactly equal expenses and income) due to the excess money going into the general student fund, which is used for non-athlete students, facilities maintenance and other non-athletic activities.

I personally would like the athletic departments to separate from the universities.  What would happen then would be the quality of everything would suffer due to the athletic departments making money and the universities just losing it.  i think that most rich alumni aren't necessarily donating because of some cutting edge research.  Mostly it has to due with a sport or a specific department that they benefited from.

Parse it however you like it.  You didn't pay one penny for my kid's public education.  Her talent and hard work did, so whatever she or her team does has absolutely no effect on you.  When you start thinking that your contribution matters and therefore it is your "right" to have some skin in the game you blur the truth.  The truth is athletic scholarships at UCLA are fully endowed.  Period.  All the athletic department buildings are paid for by separate athletic department funds that do not get a penny from the university general fund or operation budget.  If you don't believe me call this person  Christopher Iacoi at 310-825-8699.  He will explain it to you.


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## End of the Line (Jul 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> I hate to interrupt this virtue signaling and false equivalency debate (its actually quite entertaining), but I think we should also look at the big picture.
> 
> How cool is it that a women's team has captured the spirit and interest of men, women, boys, girls and gender _____.  What other US women's team in any other sport has done that at the level the the USWNT has repeatedly done?  I can't think of a women's team that comes close.  Again, how cool is that?  Yes there was some politics and questionable behavior involved with the team, but how about a class act like Carli Lloyd comforting the Thai keeper after the blowout.  The interest and excitement for the team is a win for women/girls, LGBT, soccer in the US and Americans as a whole.


Yes, let's talk about the players who are actually the best players on the most dominant women's national team the world has ever seen, and who deserve better than to have bigots speculate that some of them only made the team because they're lesbians.

Another great example is Emily Sonnet.  Ms. Sonnet was the 2013 GA HS Gatorade player of the year and also an integral part of some excellent UVA teams.  She was a Hermann Trophy finalist, first team All American and the ACC defensive player of the year.  She was also the ESPNW college national player of the year and the #1 pick in the 2015 NWSL draft.  In 2018, she made the NWSL best 11, and was a finalist for the defensive player of the year.  She has been a regular on WNTs, for many years, including the U18 and U23 teams.  She is also a good teammate who has never whined about being treated unfairly by USSF.  Certainly a deserving role player on the USWNT WC squad.


----------



## Glen (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> So If the team pays for the facilities that they used, paid for the building that they occupy, and contribute a net positive to the overall budget it is smoke and mirrors?  The accounting trick is that the athletic department intentionally showed a net zero (exactly equal expenses and income) due to the excess money going into the general student fund, which is used for non-athlete students, facilities maintenance and other non-athletic activities.
> 
> I personally would like the athletic departments to separate from the universities.  What would happen then would be the quality of everything would suffer due to the athletic departments making money and the universities just losing it.  i think that most rich alumni aren't necessarily donating because of some cutting edge research.  Mostly it has to due with a sport or a specific department that they benefited from.
> 
> Parse it however you like it.  You didn't pay one penny for my kid's public education.  Her talent and hard work did, so whatever she or her team does has absolutely no effect on you.  When you start thinking that your contribution matters and therefore it is your "right" to have some skin in the game you blur the truth.  The truth is athletic scholarships at UCLA are fully endowed.  Period.  All the athletic department buildings are paid for by separate athletic department funds that do not get a penny from the university general fund or operation budget.  If you don't believe me call this person  Christopher Iacoi at 310-825-8699.  He will explain it to you.


Revenue is not enough.  They need donations to make up for the deficit.  I’m fine with that, but don’t give tax breaks for it.  That’s what is so absurd.  And that does impact everyone.


----------



## outside! (Jul 25, 2019)

The UCLA athletic department did not pay for the land it sits on and did not pay to establish UCLA. No university, no athletic department. To say that the athletic department receives no financial benefit from its association with UCLA is the smoke and mirrors part.


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## End of the Line (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> So If the team pays for the facilities that they used, paid for the building that they occupy, and contribute a net positive to the overall budget it is smoke and mirrors?  The accounting trick is that the athletic department intentionally showed a net zero (exactly equal expenses and income) due to the excess money going into the general student fund, which is used for non-athlete students, facilities maintenance and other non-athletic activities.
> 
> I personally would like the athletic departments to separate from the universities.  What would happen then would be the quality of everything would suffer due to the athletic departments making money and the universities just losing it.  i think that most rich alumni aren't necessarily donating because of some cutting edge research.  Mostly it has to due with a sport or a specific department that they benefited from.
> 
> Parse it however you like it.  You didn't pay one penny for my kid's public education.  Her talent and hard work did, so whatever she or her team does has absolutely no effect on you.  When you start thinking that your contribution matters and therefore it is your "right" to have some skin in the game you blur the truth.  The truth is athletic scholarships at UCLA are fully endowed.  Period.  All the athletic department buildings are paid for by separate athletic department funds that do not get a penny from the university general fund or operation budget.  If you don't believe me call this person  Christopher Iacoi at 310-825-8699.  He will explain it to you.


Tuition and fees constitute 10% of the UC budget.  It is cute that you think a student's tuition constitutes their actual cost.  Naïve, but cute.  It's more than a little disappointing that you could get through four years there and not learn anything.


----------



## Glen (Jul 25, 2019)

From Chris’s office last year:  “With costs across the board continuing to rise as the landscape of intercollegiate athletics evolves and certain projected revenue streams produce at a rate lower than expected, it is vital for UCLA Athletics to generate revenue through private donations as existing self-controlled revenue streams have now been maximized, namely through the department's shoe and apparel partnership with Under Armour and multimedia rights agreement with WME/IMG.”


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 25, 2019)

watfly said:


> I hate to interrupt this virtue signaling and false equivalency debate (its actually quite entertaining), but I think we should also look at the big picture.
> 
> How cool is it that a women's team has captured the spirit and interest of men, women, boys, girls and gender _____.  What other US women's team in any other sport has done that at the level the the USWNT has repeatedly done?  I can't think of a women's team that comes close.  Again, how cool is that?  Yes there was some politics and questionable behavior involved with the team, but how about a class act like Carli Lloyd comforting the Thai keeper after the blowout.  The interest and excitement for the team is a win for women/girls, LGBT, soccer in the US and Americans as a whole.


Well said!


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jul 25, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> do you spout off like this to muslims too?


Only If he is behind a keyboard and a safe place. I highly doubt he will speak to anyone of us the same way face-to-face. #KeyboardToughGuy


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

Glen said:


> Revenue is not enough.  They need donations to make up for the deficit.  I’m fine with that, but don’t give tax breaks for it.  That’s what is so absurd.  And that does impact everyone.


Please read these then we can discuss what you think they have in a deficit.  I have been told that the department has a surplus but they put overages into the general fund.  And yes they have already surpassed their fundraising goals and have upped them significantly.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

https://uclabruins.com/documents/2018/9/24/AnnualReport_1718_FULL.pdf

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/uclabruins.com/documents/2018/9/24/1718_05.pdf

https://www.dailynews.com/2013/04/04/ucla-gives-athletic-director-guerrero-new-contract-through-2019/


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

Glen said:


> From Chris’s office last year:  “With costs across the board continuing to rise as the landscape of intercollegiate athletics evolves and certain projected revenue streams produce at a rate lower than expected, it is vital for UCLA Athletics to generate revenue through private donations as existing self-controlled revenue streams have now been maximized, namely through the department's shoe and apparel partnership with Under Armour and multimedia rights agreement with WME/IMG.”


Please read the post above.  Read all of it becaase @End of the Line likes to talk about what fits her/his/its agenda.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, let's talk about the players who are actually the best players on the most dominant women's national team the world has ever seen, and who deserve better than to have bigots speculate that some of them only made the team because they're lesbians.
> 
> Another great example is Emily Sonnet.  Ms. Sonnet was the 2013 GA HS Gatorade player of the year and also an integral part of some excellent UVA teams.  She was a Hermann Trophy finalist, first team All American and the ACC defensive player of the year.  She was also the ESPNW college national player of the year and the #1 pick in the 2015 NWSL draft.  In 2018, she made the NWSL best 11, and was a finalist for the defensive player of the year.  She has been a regular on WNTs, for many years, including the U18 and U23 teams.  She is also a good teammate who has never whined about being treated unfairly by USSF.  Certainly a deserving role player on the USWNT WC squad.


Her college coach is a coach on the squad.  She is about as deserving as your patriot Ms. Harris.  What is Ashlynn like the 7th best starting keeper in the league?


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Her college coach is a coach on the squad.  She is about as deserving as your patriot Ms. Harris.  What is Ashlynn like the 7th best starting keeper in the league?


So now you're saying Sonnet made it due to nepotism and not because USSF doesn't allow bigots?


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 25, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Only If he is behind a keyboard and a safe place. I highly doubt he will speak to anyone of us the same way face-to-face. #KeyboardToughGuy


Of course it's unlikely I'd confront a bigot in person, mostly because they're really hard to find in public.  Most of your kind know better than to approach strangers and tell them how much you hate equality and how offensive you find it that others don't share your opinion.  If it did happen, though, you're right that I would defer since I know that folks who hate the Equal Protection Clause tend to love the 2nd Amendment too much.  And I can't exactly expect someone with a gun to act rationally if they think an all powerful being directed people to murder gay folk until he had his son direct them to "love" them instead - just make sure they pay higher taxes, can't get married and, no matter what, do not sell them a cake.  Right?  For goodness sake, I've only used my words with you, yet your panties are already in such a bunch that you're throwing vaguely threatening comments my way.  No way I'm messing with someone like you.  But I also don't need to, because gays can marry and USSF can have players wear rainbow jerseys.  I already won.


----------



## Glen (Jul 25, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Please read these then we can discuss what you think they have in a deficit.  I have been told that the department has a surplus but they put overages into the general fund.  And yes they have already surpassed their fundraising goals and have upped them significantly.
> 
> https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
> 
> ...


I don’t understand.  All of these links say that part of the expenses for the athletic department are paid through private donations.  One of the link says it was 20% for 2018.  Donators receive tax breaks for those donations.  My point is that schools shouldn’t be taking funds out of the general tax pool to pay for inflated coaches salaries, etc.  Take away the tax breaks, and then you would have a better argument.  Trump’s tax bill actually attempted to cut back on some of it, but I don’t know if it ultimately got in the bill.

We don’t even have to get into the fact that the UCLA athletic department was caught selling admissions spots to secure donations.  Seriously, who can believe anything out of the UCLA athletic department at this point? 

Apart from that, sports like soccer, of course, make no money for schools, so I’m not sure how anyone can justify an inflated salary of a soccer coach when football or basketball make money.  The soccer teams have no more right to that money than any other organization at the school unless a donation (hopefully without tax breaks) is specifically designated for the sport.


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## Kicker4Life (Jul 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Most of your kind....


And what “kind” is that?  

If I am indeed a bigot it is not for the reasons you imply which further proves everything I have ever said about you.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 25, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, let's talk about the players who are actually the best players on the most dominant women's national team the world has ever seen, and who deserve better than to have bigots speculate that some of them only made the team because they're lesbians.
> 
> Another great example is Emily Sonnet.  Ms. Sonnet was the 2013 GA HS Gatorade player of the year and also an integral part of some excellent UVA teams.  She was a Hermann Trophy finalist, first team All American and the ACC defensive player of the year.  She was also the ESPNW college national player of the year and the #1 pick in the 2015 NWSL draft.  In 2018, she made the NWSL best 11, and was a finalist for the defensive player of the year.  She has been a regular on WNTs, for many years, including the U18 and U23 teams.  She is also a good teammate who has never whined about being treated unfairly by USSF.  Certainly a deserving role player on the USWNT WC squad.


It finally clicked for me...EOL is a white supremacist.  Always critical of blacks, asians, etc.  Always putting whites up on a pedestal, gay and straight.  Makes complete sense now.


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## espola (Jul 25, 2019)

oh canada said:


> It finally clicked for me...EOL is a white supremacist.  Always critical of blacks, asians, etc.  Always putting whites up on a pedestal, gay and straight.  Makes complete sense now.


Stroke?


----------



## ToonArmy (Jul 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> It finally clicked for me...EOL is a white supremacist.  Always critical of blacks, asians, etc.  Always putting whites up on a pedestal, gay and straight.  Makes complete sense now.


That would explain why he thinks Jacklyn Harris and co. have done more for human rights than Jackie Robinson


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## End of the Line (Jul 26, 2019)

oh canada said:


> It finally clicked for me...EOL is a white supremacist.  Always critical of blacks, asians, etc.  Always putting whites up on a pedestal, gay and straight.  Makes complete sense now.


Nuh uh, you are.


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## End of the Line (Jul 26, 2019)

Quick question.  Let's say the MNT captain wears a rainbow armband in memory of the 49 people murdered at Pulse nightclub.  I know it's not Jackie Robinson or anything, and just 49 dead people, but still.  Ok since the rainbow isn't on the number?  Or is it still wrong because the captain represents the team and also all of America, and we know America shouldn't care about 49 people murdered in probably the most deadly single hate crime in US history?  What if USSF went further and implemented rainbow jerseys but solely for the purpose of remembering those killed, and also made it very clear that it was not taking a position on gay marriage?  Ok then?  Do you think Hinkle would still refuse to wear a jersey if USSF made it clear the purpose was only to remember all the dead people, rather than equal rights generally? Or do you think she also opposes gay people even being alive?

What if UCLA put rainbows on the baseball team's hats in memory of all the Pulse victims?  Is that wrong because that law says someone must actually have played baseball for UCLA before they can be remembered on a hat?  What if at least one of the victims was a current or former student at least?  Are 42 hats ok and rainbow hats aren't because more people overall were killed in the fight for racial civil rights than LGBT civil rights?  If so, exactly how many people need to die before a private company can show it's support and sympathy?


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## Desert Hound (Jul 26, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Quick question.  Let's say the MNT captain wears a rainbow armband in memory of the 49 people murdered at Pulse nightclub.  I know it's not Jackie Robinson or anything, and just 49 dead people, but still.  Ok since the rainbow isn't on the number?  Or is it still wrong because the captain represents the team and also all of America, and we know America shouldn't care about 49 people murdered in probably the most deadly single hate crime in US history?  What if USSF went further and implemented rainbow jerseys but solely for the purpose of remembering those killed, and also made it very clear that it was not taking a position on gay marriage?  Ok then?  Do you think Hinkle would still refuse to wear a jersey if USSF made it clear the purpose was only to remember all the dead people, rather than equal rights generally? Or do you think she also opposes gay people even being alive?
> 
> What if UCLA put rainbows on the baseball team's hats in memory of all the Pulse victims?  Is that wrong because that law says someone must actually have played baseball for UCLA before they can be remembered on a hat?  What if at least one of the victims was a current or former student at least?  Are 42 hats ok and rainbow hats aren't because more people overall were killed in the fight for racial civil rights than LGBT civil rights?  If so, exactly how many people need to die before a private company can show it's support and sympathy?


How about this?

Lets just watch sports. Let those who want to virtue signal or support some cause or the other do it on their time. You want to wear a rainbow jersey in the stands or watching TV have at it. 

I prefer to watch sports for the sports. It is supposed to be a getaway from all the crap we constantly see from various groups and the political parties around the country.


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## Poconos (Jul 26, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Quick question.


quick observation . . . this is the first post in some time you didn't toss around the word _bigot_.  progress is being made.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2019)

This is important stuff...


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## CaliKlines (Jul 27, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> This is important stuff...


Somebody is a fan of Howard!


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## Poconos (Jul 29, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> How about the best player regardless of race?


let me see if i understand you correctly . . . . you would prefer that the best players be on the team?  radical stuff


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## End of the Line (Jul 29, 2019)

Desert Hound said:


> How about this?
> 
> Lets just watch sports. Let those who want to virtue signal or support some cause or the other do it on their time. You want to wear a rainbow jersey in the stands or watching TV have at it.
> 
> I prefer to watch sports for the sports. It is supposed to be a getaway from all the crap we constantly see from various groups and the political parties around the country.


Yes, let's stop complaining when USSF exercises its legal right to support equality, especially since it is the morally correct thing to do.  Let's stop making false accusations that the WNT coach discriminates in favor of lesbians.  It would certainly be nice if everyone would just watch the WNT and enjoy the fact that they are the best and most dominant women's soccer team in the history of the world regardless of the color(s) of the numbers on their jerseys.

I will add that sports has never been "supposed to be a getaway" from civil rights and equality.   To the contrary, sports has been one of the best and most popular means by which to combat prejudice and bigotry, and to help establish true equality.  Whether it was Jackie Robinson donning a Dodgers uniform, Jessie Owens making fools of fascists everywhere, black power fists at the Olympics, Muhammed Ali being selected to carry the torch at the Atlanta games, Billie Jean King beating Bobby Riggs, or USSF using rainbow jerseys, sports has always been a means to overcome hate and bigotry.  Don't we live in great times?  Never before could a national federation support LGBT rights with hardly any pushback.  Just a few online posters, one senile old man on the 700 Club, and a second rate outside back....


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## Multi Sport (Jul 29, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Yes, let's stop complaining when USSF exercises its legal right to support equality, especially since it is the morally correct thing to do.  Let's stop making false accusations that the WNT coach discriminates in favor of lesbians.  It would certainly be nice if everyone would just watch the WNT and enjoy the fact that they are the best and most dominant women's soccer team in the history of the world regardless of the color(s) of the numbers on their jerseys.
> 
> I will add that sports has never been "supposed to be a getaway" from civil rights and equality.   To the contrary, sports has been one of the best and most popular means by which to combat prejudice and bigotry, and to help establish true equality.  Whether it was Jackie Robinson donning a Dodgers uniform, Jessie Owens making fools of fascists everywhere, black power fists at the Olympics, Muhammed Ali being selected to carry the torch at the Atlanta games, Billie Jean King beating Bobby Riggs, or USSF using rainbow jerseys, sports has always been a means to overcome hate and bigotry.  Don't we live in great times?  Never before could a national federation support LGBT rights with hardly any pushback.  Just a few online posters, one senile old man on the 700 Club, and a second rate outside back....


So what rights does the "bigot" want to deny the lesbians on the WNST again?


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## Frank (Jul 29, 2019)

Looks like the USSF agrees with me that the women make more than the men. Considering they are the ones with more knowledge about the payments, structure and financials I’ll go ahead and believe them over the masses that have no clue other than their emotional need to believe that they are being treated unequal. I guess it will get straightened out on court as to who is right. 

https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states/story/3908663/ussf-says-uswnt-has-made-more-than-the-men?src=com


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## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

Frank said:


> Looks like the USSF agrees with me that the women make more than the men. Considering they are the ones with more knowledge about the payments, structure and financials I’ll go ahead and believe them over the masses that have no clue other than their emotional need to believe that they are being treated unequal. I guess it will get straightened out on court as to who is right.
> 
> https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states/story/3908663/ussf-says-uswnt-has-made-more-than-the-men?src=com


Thanks Frank. Carlos Cordeiro wrote an open letter calling for fair pay and outlining what has been paid to both teams over the last 10 years. In support of his case he published Factsheet detailing the historic pay. For those who are curious here is the Factsheet sent out by USSF President Carlos Cordeiro:

https://twitter.com/CACSoccer/status/1155951910760796166


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 30, 2019)

Why is NWSL pay included? Also how can US Soccer’s assumption for NWSL pay per player be higher than the league salary cap?
And since it is included, why isn’t total investment between men/women included? Would be curious to see those numbers to see if it still tells the same story.


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## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Why is NWSL pay included? Also how can US Soccer’s assumption for NWSL pay per player be higher than the league salary cap?
> And since it is included, why isn’t total investment between men/women included? Would be curious to see those numbers to see if it still tells the same story.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> Why is NWSL pay included? Also how can US Soccer’s assumption for NWSL pay per player be higher than the league salary cap?
> And since it is included, why isn’t total investment between men/women included? Would be curious to see those numbers to see if it still tells the same story.


SF2 I have not had a chance to go through it all. At first blush I felt his Factsheet was a bit cursory but I have to look more closely. I am also curious to see the USWNT rebuttal.


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## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> SF2 I have not had a chance to go through it all. At first blush I felt his Factsheet was a bit cursory but I have to look more closely. I am also curious to see the USWNT rebuttal.


I bet they don’t agree ;-)


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## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

And then there's this...Jill Ellis steps down as USWNT Coach....

https://nypost.com/2019/07/30/jill-ellis-quitting-as-uswnt-coach-after-world-cup-triumph/


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## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> And then there's this...Jill Ellis steps down as USWNT Coach....
> 
> https://nypost.com/2019/07/30/jill-ellis-quitting-as-uswnt-coach-after-world-cup-triumph/


Congrats to a very successful career


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## End of the Line (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> SF2 I have not had a chance to go through it all. At first blush I felt his Factsheet was a bit cursory but I have to look more closely. I am also curious to see the USWNT rebuttal.


I love it.  USSF says the women are paid more if you don't count the money that causes the men to be paid more, but you do count the money women make in their other jobs.  Hysterical how Cordiero counts money USSF pays to NWSL, but not the massive amounts of money it pays to SUM, which is owned by MLS.  Also great how he touts that USSF started GDA two years ago while forgetting that it started one for the boys more than 10 years earlier.  I also didn't see the part about the MNT coach getting paid 10x that of the WNT coach. 

USSF can claim all it wants that it cannot distinguish how much the WNT is responsible for its primary and most profitable source of revenue - advertising and sponsorships - but that is precisely what a jury will do for them.  It is also what the sponsors are doing for them right now by exerting the pressure on USSF that led to this misleading and desperate "factsheet".  USSF knows it is in deep trouble and has resorted to misleading propaganda in the hope that it can mislead more people like Frank.  But Nike and VW are smarter than Frank.  Soon, you will see the WNT players making far more money than the men because they generate far more money for USSF and they deserve far more money than the men. 

BTW everyone, I'm also making great progress in my campaign for equality.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/us/joshua-harris-divorce-apology-scli-intl/index.html


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## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> I love it.  USSF says the women are paid more if you don't count the money that causes the men to be paid more, but you do count the money women make in their other jobs.  Hysterical how Cordiero counts money USSF pays to NWSL, but not the massive amounts of money it pays to SUM, which is owned by MLS.  Also great how he touts that USSF started GDA two years ago while forgetting that it started one for the boys more than 10 years earlier.  I also didn't see the part about the MNT coach getting paid 10x that of the WNT coach.
> 
> USSF can claim all it wants that it cannot distinguish how much the WNT is responsible for its primary and most profitable source of revenue - advertising and sponsorships - but that is precisely what a jury will do for them.  It is also what the sponsors are doing for them right now by exerting the pressure on USSF that led to this misleading and desperate "factsheet".  USSF knows it is in deep trouble and has resorted to misleading propaganda in the hope that it can mislead more people like Frank.  But Nike and VW are smarter than Frank.  Soon, you will see the WNT players making far more money than the men because they generate far more money for USSF and they deserve far more money than the men.
> 
> BTW everyone, I'm also making great progress in my campaign for equality.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/29/us/joshua-harris-divorce-apology-scli-intl/index.html


I believe they count NWSL because the USSF pays the women for their club work versus the men get paid by club.  I get why they would count this as the league would not exist without the USSF paying the salary.


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## End of the Line (Jul 30, 2019)

Frank said:


> I believe they count NWSL because the USSF pays the women for their club work versus the men get paid by club.  I get why they would count this as the league would not exist without the USSF paying the salary.


It is one of many excuses by USSF to rationalize why it does not pay the players fairly.  Also, the men don't get paid "by the club".  They get paid by MLS, which is a single entity system.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

While I agree with you Frank I also aver that this is where it gets tricky. EOL had a point re SUM and MLS. SUM collects the revenue from the sponsorship deals. The sponsorship deals grew at an exceptional rate that also corresponded with the success of the USWNT. MLS, USWNT and USMNT sponsorships are bundled together. Therefore it stands to reason that the MLS and therefore the USMNT are benefitting from the colossal growth in the sponsorship deals that appear to be driven by the USWNT. I hope I am making sense there.

Also, as EOL alludes to, it is telling that Cordeiro omitted any mention of the sponsorship deals. This is disingenuous on his part and as I am a neutral party it is disappointing to me that he would omit it.

Finally, in my work with companies, sometimes I run across a CEO who does not understand accounting or finance. Perhaps the CEO is a former attorney or a brilliant salesman but has no training nor the aptitude for financial analysis. As I read Cordeiro's "fact sheet" it occurred to me that he might be financially illiterate in a sense. I don't know how else to explain why he counts gate/game revenues but excludes the sponsorships which are now so large that they are 150% of the game revenues.


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## End of the Line (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> While I agree with you Frank I also aver that this is where it gets tricky. EOL had a point re SUM and MLS. SUM collects the revenue from the sponsorship deals. The sponsorship deals grew at an exceptional rate that also corresponded with the success of the USWNT. MLS, USWNT and USMNT sponsorships are bundled together. Therefore it stands to reason that the MLS and therefore the USMNT are benefitting from the colossal growth in the sponsorship deals that appear to be driven by the USWNT. I hope I am making sense there.
> 
> Also, as EOL alludes to, it is telling that Cordeiro omitted any mention of the sponsorship deals. This is disingenuous on his part and as I am a neutral party it is disappointing to me that he would omit it.
> 
> Finally, in my work with companies, sometimes I run across a CEO who does not understand accounting or finance. Perhaps the CEO is a former attorney or a brilliant salesman but has no training nor the aptitude for financial analysis. As I read Cordeiro's "fact sheet" it occurred to me that he might be financially illiterate in a sense. I don't know how else to explain why he counts gate/game revenues but excludes the sponsorships which are now so large that they are 150% of the game revenues.


Cordeiro has an MBA from Harvard and is a former partner at Goldman Sachs.  He knows what he is doing.  He is being deceptive because he knows who is driving sponsorship revenue, and he knows what happens when everyone else figures that out.


----------



## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Cordeiro has an MBA from Harvard and is a former partner at Goldman Sachs.  He knows what he is doing.  He is being deceptive because he knows who is driving sponsorship revenue, and he knows what happens when everyone else figures that out.


I saw that and was hoping for a kinder explanation...like maybe he was partner in charge of IT at Goldman lol...and having served as Treasurer and overseeing the USSF budgets he knows how all of the financial arrangements are tied together...


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> While I agree with you Frank I also aver that this is where it gets tricky. EOL had a point re SUM and MLS. SUM collects the revenue from the sponsorship deals. The sponsorship deals grew at an exceptional rate that also corresponded with the success of the USWNT. MLS, USWNT and USMNT sponsorships are bundled together. Therefore it stands to reason that the MLS and therefore the USMNT are benefitting from the colossal growth in the sponsorship deals that appear to be driven by the USWNT. I hope I am making sense there.
> 
> Also, as EOL alludes to, it is telling that Cordeiro omitted any mention of the sponsorship deals. This is disingenuous on his part and as I am a neutral party it is disappointing to me that he would omit it.
> 
> Finally, in my work with companies, sometimes I run across a CEO who does not understand accounting or finance. Perhaps the CEO is a former attorney or a brilliant salesman but has no training nor the aptitude for financial analysis. As I read Cordeiro's "fact sheet" it occurred to me that he might be financially illiterate in a sense. I don't know how else to explain why he counts gate/game revenues but excludes the sponsorships which are now so large that they are 150% of the game revenues.


I also have to agree with the message (although the messenger isn't the best).  Cordeiro is not financially illiterate, he is just being shady.  He should just be honest and say that the MLS is profitable by itself and use that as some sort of justification not omitting revenue sources to skew the numbers.  I think that what the players receive should be commensurate with overall revenue and costs (all the other leagues have a set percentage of their shared revenue that must be spent on players which is why you have journeyman point guards in the NBA getting $20 million a year contracts!) and should be averaged over a set period so that includes both the men and women's World Cups's in the revenue calculation.

Personally I think that more money should be invested in the NWSL and in grass roots development such as subsidizing costs for more regional camps and competition between those regions so that we can truly identify a larger pool of players with the most potential to make it to the pros and the full WNT.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> I saw that and was hoping for a kinder explanation...like maybe he was partner in charge of IT at Goldman lol...and having served as Treasurer and overseeing the USSF budgets he knows how all of the financial arrangements are tied together...


US Soccer is the shadiest governing body of any of the major sports in the US by far.  As the poet Method Man said, "Cash Rules Everything Around Me......  CREAM.....


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## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I also have to agree with the message (although the messenger isn't the best).  Cordeiro is not financially illiterate, he is just being shady.  He should just be honest and say that the MLS is profitable by itself and use that as some sort of justification not omitting revenue sources to skew the numbers.  I think that what the players receive should be commensurate with overall revenue and costs (all the other leagues have a set percentage of their shared revenue that must be spent on players which is why you have journeyman point guards in the NBA getting $20 million a year contracts!) and should be averaged over a set period so that includes both the men and women's World Cups's in the revenue calculation.
> 
> Personally I think that more money should be invested in the NWSL and in grass roots development such as subsidizing costs for more regional camps and competition between those regions so that we can truly identify a larger pool of players with the most potential to make it to the pros and the full WNT.


Why would USSF want to put more money in to a professional women's sport?  I have a serious question in that.  Americans in the general do not support professional women's sports so to me if USSF doesn't see a way to profitability at that level a slow and measured financial policy makes a lot of sense.  Regardless of the grassroots level of play.


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## End of the Line (Jul 30, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I also have to agree with the message (although the messenger isn't the best).  Cordeiro is not financially illiterate, he is just being shady.  He should just be honest and say that the MLS is profitable by itself and use that as some sort of justification not omitting revenue sources to skew the numbers.  I think that what the players receive should be commensurate with overall revenue and costs (all the other leagues have a set percentage of their shared revenue that must be spent on players which is why you have journeyman point guards in the NBA getting $20 million a year contracts!) and should be averaged over a set period so that includes both the men and women's World Cups's in the revenue calculation.
> 
> Personally I think that more money should be invested in the NWSL and in grass roots development such as subsidizing costs for more regional camps and competition between those regions so that we can truly identify a larger pool of players with the most potential to make it to the pros and the full WNT.


When you're right, you're right.


----------



## End of the Line (Jul 30, 2019)

Frank said:


> Why would USSF want to put more money in to a professional women's sport?  I have a serious question in that.  Americans in the general do not support professional women's sports so to me if USSF doesn't see a way to profitability at that level a slow and measured financial policy makes a lot of sense.  Regardless of the grassroots level of play.


Because WNT success means tens of millions of dollars in sponsorship revenue for USSF.  And WNT success depends on the NWSL, which helps WNT players stay sharp and fit.  Without a competent women's professional league in the US, the US will (actually) fall behind, and then tens of millions of dollars in sponsorship revenue goes away for USSF.  USSF puts money into the NWSL for the same reason Apple puts money into R&D.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> And then there's this...Jill Ellis steps down as USWNT Coach....
> 
> https://nypost.com/2019/07/30/jill-ellis-quitting-as-uswnt-coach-after-world-cup-triumph/


Whoever follows Ellis will have some big shoes to fill.


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## soccerobserver (Jul 30, 2019)

Interesting I did not know some of the players tried to get Ellis fired as recently as 2017....also Mark Krikorian, FSU head coach, rumored to be possible candidate as next HC for USWNT ??? Kate Markgraf on ESPN FC:


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## espola (Jul 30, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> US Soccer is the shadiest governing body of any of the major sports in the US by far.  As the poet Method Man said, "Cash Rules Everything Around Me......  CREAM.....


Well, yes, now that Gymnastics has been exposed.


----------



## Frank (Jul 30, 2019)

soccerobserver said:


> Interesting I did not know some of the players tried to get Ellis fired as recently as 2017....also Mark Krikorian, FSU head coach, rumored to be possible candidate as next HC for USWNT ??? Kate Markgraf on ESPN FC:


It would really be against the current political environment to hire a male to coach this high profile of a female sport job. IMO


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## oh canada (Jul 30, 2019)

Managing that group of women had to be a difficult task.  I hope we hear about the details in her soon to come book.

Advancing the conversation...Jill moved the needle somewhat...not enough imo...toward playing the ball on the ground and more technical players.  FSU coach would certainly further those efforts, but I'd be shocked if he left the comforts of the sunshine state for the headaches that come with managing the likes of Ashlyn Harris.  Any other coaches being mentioned that would carry the skills/technical/possession torch?


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## tjsoccer (Jul 31, 2019)

Cordiero is answering the "equal pay" question.  Under the two different CBA agreements for National Team Players (men and women), the women's salary from the USSF was greater over the 10 year period.  The women's player rep sounds like an idiot when she says that the USSF "inappropriately (included) the NWSL salaries of the players to inflate the women's players' compensation."  That is part of their USSF salary. 

The amount of revenue that is allocated to player salaries is the issue.   The USSF's shady accounting is the issue.  Both the men and the women have a legit claim for more transparency and greater revenue sharing.  The women's side does not need to crap on the men's team performance.   They are painting themselves into a corner.


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## beachbum (Jul 31, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I also have to agree with the message (although the messenger isn't the best).  Cordeiro is not financially illiterate, he is just being shady.  He should just be honest and say that the MLS is profitable by itself and use that as some sort of justification not omitting revenue sources to skew the numbers.  I think that what the players receive should be commensurate with overall revenue and costs (all the other leagues have a set percentage of their shared revenue that must be spent on players which is why you have journeyman point guards in the NBA getting $20 million a year contracts!) and should be averaged over a set period so that includes both the men and women's World Cups's in the revenue calculation.
> 
> Personally I think that more money should be invested in the NWSL and in grass roots development such as subsidizing costs for more regional camps and competition between those regions so that we can truly identify a larger pool of players with the most potential to make it to the pros and the full WNT.


I don't know these numbers but your points seem valid, it should be based on percentages of the take.  The one thing in the report is that FIFA pays 40 million to the winner of the men's world cup.  I don't know these number either but i would  Ass u & me that the men's world cup generates 10 time more revenue than the woman's world cup so they can afford to pay more (10 times as much).  Yes I know the governing bodies are corrupt.
On a separate note, I heard/read that they were thinking of increasing the number of teams in the woman world cup by eight, is that correct?  I think it might be to soon for that as there were plenty of teams in the last woman's world cup that weren't competitive. Thoughts and did i see that correctly?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 31, 2019)

beachbum said:


> I don't know these numbers but your points seem valid, it should be based on percentages of the take.  The one thing in the report is that FIFA pays 40 million to the winner of the men's world cup.  I don't know these number either but i would  Ass u & me that the men's world cup generates 10 time more revenue than the woman's world cup so they can afford to pay more (10 times as much).  Yes I know the governing bodies are corrupt.
> On a separate note, I heard/read that they were thinking of increasing the number of teams in the woman world cup by eight, is that correct?  I think it might be to soon for that as there were plenty of teams in the last woman's world cup that weren't competitive. Thoughts and did i see that correctly?


You did see that correctly and by the way it is being reported it sounds like more teams in 2023 is a done deal.  I wouldn't be surprised if the men's World Cup made 10 times as much money as there are many more countries with media companies that are willing to shell out top dollar for it especially in soccer crazy countries.  

My main point is that since US Soccer is involved in negotiating the joint television contracts for MLS and the US National teams that they should throw ALL of the revenue received from ALL sources over a 4 year period that includes both world cups and figure out an equitable percentage.  I also think that they should invest some of it into the NWSL since it is the life blood of the US WNT.  Without it the players would either all be playing overseas or they likely would not be keeping fit enough to compete.  The English FA is mandating that all of the clubs invest more into the women's game and the league just secured a big investment from Barkley's to be the title sponsor for the WSL similar to how they are the title sponsor for the EPL.  If we don't continue to invest in our pro league then we are going to fall behind eventually.


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## outside! (Jul 31, 2019)

As I have said many times, one of the reasons to invest in women's soccer is to help the men's game. The biggest thing soccer needs in the US is to increase in popularity. Female soccer players often times go on to be paying soccer fans and/or soccer moms.


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## tjsoccer (Aug 2, 2019)

Jermaine Jones checked in on the discussion, but I'm unclear who he is trying to help.  He seems to be taking a stand against "girls".  Not sure where that is going to get him, but its a bold approach.

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-usmnt-player-jermaine-jones-criticizes-alex-morgan-womens-soccer-and-equal-pay-fight-164822436.html

The quotes:
_“I appreciate everything they’re doing. I think they’re doing an amazing job,” Jones said at an event in Los Angeles. “Of course, we as men we know it’s tougher to win a World Cup than the girls.”

“We of course have to respect and own what they’re doing and have to support them that they get kind of paid. But give me one country where the girls get paid the same as the men. There’s not one ... There is just no country. And that’s the point.”

“‘If we shut down the men’s team there will be no U.S. soccer.’ That’s the way it is. We just have a bigger platform in general. So if you look at numbers, the girls team have more like consistent fans for the fan base but if you look at the numbers in general the men’s team is way bigger.”_


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## Poconos (Aug 2, 2019)

tjsoccer said:


> Jermaine Jones checked in on the discussion, but I'm unclear who he is trying to help.  He seems to be taking a stand against "girls".  Not sure where that is going to get him, but its a bold approach.


some might say brave


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## outside! (Aug 2, 2019)

Ladera Ranch Cruyff said:


> some might say brave


Some might say stupid.


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## Dof3 (Aug 2, 2019)

"get kind of paid"??  Whatever point he was trying to make, he made it poorly.  Especially tough to win a World Cup from the couch watching teams that qualified play.  I am putting my chips on stupid.


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## End of the Line (Aug 2, 2019)

tjsoccer said:


> Jermaine Jones checked in on the discussion, but I'm unclear who he is trying to help.  He seems to be taking a stand against "girls".  Not sure where that is going to get him, but its a bold approach.
> 
> https://sports.yahoo.com/former-usmnt-player-jermaine-jones-criticizes-alex-morgan-womens-soccer-and-equal-pay-fight-164822436.html
> 
> ...


Jermaine has a fundamental misunderstanding of value.  Players like him have never provided any monetary value for USSF.  Like most MNT players, even in his peak Jones could have been replaced by any of 30 other people with zero reduction in ticket sales or prices, zero reduction in apparel sales, and zero reduction in the MNT's ability to make the WC.  In fact, Jones and the rest of his merry band of losers actually have negative value for USSF, because the MNT must play in small stadiums in remote locations and in the snow just to have a chance to win soccer games, and are such p***ies that they can't handle 75,000 raucous Mexico supporters on a nice sunny day at the LA Coliseum.

Alex Morgan, on the other hand, has single-handedly generated millions of dollars of revenue for USSF and is easily the most valuable person in USSF history, with the possible exception of Landon Donovan, and I doubt even that.  As many jerseys as Donovan sold, sales were still hamstrung by the fact that most people understood he was still just king of the p***ies, and no one wants to be that closely associated with a douche.  However, you can't go five feet at a WNT game without seeing a Morgan jersey.   Shoot, I bet even Tierna Davidson generated more revenue just from the auction of her pride jersey than Jermaine Jones generated for USSF in his entire life.  With the exception of a few family members, I doubt Jermaine Jones ever caused a single person to attend a MNT game or buy a single jersey.  Like I've said earlier, maybe VW entered into its sponsorship deal with USSF in part because they know beta males like Jones buy their stuff, but I'm pretty sure they did it because alpha girls like Jettas and Golfs, and daddies are suckers when it comes to their little girls.

I see Jermaine's type of thinking a lot in youth soccer clubs.  Morons like him go around running youth soccer clubs because they're too dumb to do anything else.  Then they spend all their time and effort fixated on trying to create boy super teams, paying their boys' coaches tons of money, and passing out "scholarships" to boys like candy if it helps them win games, and then they completely disregard the fact that girls actually pay their dues and drive the revenue.  They wonder why a club like SoCal Blues rakes in cash hand over fist when they're just girls.  And they continue to make thirty or forty grand a year when they'd make more than twice that if they'd ever realize that most of the money in soccer generated in the US from the age of 5 onward is generated because of girls.  That the majority of money generated by USSF on the men's side happens because everyone went to the game to watch the MNT's opponent. Or wanted to see Messi beat the living crap out of the soccer version of the Washington Generals at the Copa.

Will someone please see that Jermaine gets this?  I'd give it to him in person but I don't have any plans to go to an arena league game.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 2, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> Jermaine has a fundamental misunderstanding of value.  Players like him have never provided any monetary value for USSF.  Like most MNT players, even in his peak Jones could have been replaced by any of 30 other people with zero reduction in ticket sales or prices, zero reduction in apparel sales, and zero reduction in the MNT's ability to make the WC.  In fact, Jones and the rest of his merry band of losers actually have negative value for USSF, because the MNT must play in small stadiums in remote locations and in the snow just to have a chance to win soccer games, and are such p***ies that they can't handle 75,000 raucous Mexico supporters on a nice sunny day at the LA Coliseum.
> 
> Alex Morgan, on the other hand, has single-handedly generated millions of dollars of revenue for USSF and is easily the most valuable person in USSF history, with the possible exception of Landon Donovan, and I doubt even that.  As many jerseys as Donovan sold, sales were still hamstrung by the fact that most people understood he was still just king of the p***ies, and no one wants to be that closely associated with a douche.  However, you can't go five feet at a WNT game without seeing a Morgan jersey.   Shoot, I bet even Tierna Davidson generated more revenue just from the auction of her pride jersey than Jermaine Jones generated for USSF in his entire life.  With the exception of a few family members, I doubt Jermaine Jones ever caused a single person to attend a MNT game or buy a single jersey.  Like I've said earlier, maybe VW entered into its sponsorship deal with USSF in part because they know beta males like Jones buy their stuff, but I'm pretty sure they did it because alpha girls like Jettas and Golfs, and daddies are suckers when it comes to their little girls.
> 
> ...


Cannot believe it, need to mark my calendar, because I agree with you 100%.   Even that bit about Donovan.


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## eastbaysoccer (Aug 2, 2019)

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-womens-world-cup/story/3909185/uswnt-coaching-search-10-candidates-who-could-replace-jill-ellis

Could Cromwell be on the move?  She’s  up and coming.  Would be a bold move by the WNT.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 2, 2019)

eastbaysoccer said:


> https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-womens-world-cup/story/3909185/uswnt-coaching-search-10-candidates-who-could-replace-jill-ellis
> 
> Could Cromwell be on the move?  She’s  up and coming.  Would be a bold move by the WNT.


Nope.  They already have decided who the GM is going to be and they will go with one of her choices.  If I was to bet I would say they offer it to Krikorian, Snow or Harvey although I would give the job to Paul Riley, Rory Dames or Vlatko A.


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## End of the Line (Aug 2, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Nope.  They already have decided who the GM is going to be and they will go with one of her choices.  If I was to bet I would say they offer it to Krikorian, Snow or Harvey although I would give the job to Paul Riley, Rory Dames or Vlatko A.


It will not be Riley for reasons that we have already discussed already.  If Krikorian, the WNT is doomed, but not because he isn't a worthy coach.  Word on the street is he's ok with America's finest playing abroad.  If the marketable Americans bolt, the NWSL is doomed, which means a significant portion of the WNT pool vaporizes when they aren't willing to move to Europe and away from friends and families - even assuming Europe is interested in America's less marketable but still talented second and third tier players.  Ellis held the line on her demand that players play here and USSF stood behind her during the 2017 revolt, which makes me believe it won't be Krikorian unless or until USSF caves in the lawsuit (like it should) and throws much more money to the ladies - but only if it continues funneling much of it through NWSL compensation.

So, for those who couldn't figure out why USSF pays WNT players in part through NWSL salaries, now you know.  In essence, USSF pays the women to play 10-20 NT games a year plus another 24 NWSL games because that's the only way it can keep getting its millions from VW and Nike for the long haul.  If the NWSL fails, USSF knows what happens - the WNT becomes beatable and poof, there goes USSF's main source of revenue.  But requiring the women to play 24 more games a year than the men just so they get paid "the same" - and so USSF can keep the millions of dollars in sponsorship money coming in long term - really means they're paying the women half as much but expecting twice as much.  The men get "the same" to play in half as many games, yet they get to do it poorly and USSF also lets them fly there on chartered planes.

In short, for those of you nodding your head in agreement with USSF's fact sheet, you are stupid.  You have no idea how USSF really makes money.  You have no idea how important the women are to USSF relative to the men.  MAP and I could play the outside back spots for the MNT and USSF revenue would probably increase due the increased entertainment value, especially since I'm targeting Guardado straight away.  I'd say I can't believe I need to explain this to people but, as mentioned in my prior post, I'm talking mostly to betas here.


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 2, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Nope.  They already have decided who the GM is going to be and they will go with one of her choices.  If I was to bet I would say they offer it to Krikorian, Snow or Harvey although I would give the job to Paul Riley, Rory Dames or Vlatko A.


I can see Harvey.


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## oh canada (Aug 2, 2019)

As long as it's not Jose Mourinho.  

From that espn list, Swanson seems like a frontrunner.  Here's to hoping the slogging USSF makes a replacement decision in 2019.  Don't hold your breath.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 2, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> It will not be Riley for reasons that we have already discussed already.  If Krikorian, the WNT is doomed, but not because he isn't a worthy coach.  Word on the street is he's ok with America's finest playing abroad.  If the marketable Americans bolt, the NWSL is doomed, which means a significant portion of the WNT pool vaporizes when they aren't willing to move to Europe and away from friends and families - even assuming Europe is interested in America's less marketable but still talented second and third tier players.  Ellis held the line on her demand that players play here and USSF stood behind her during the 2017 revolt, which makes me believe it won't be Krikorian unless or until USSF caves in the lawsuit (like it should) and throws much more money to the ladies - but only if it continues funneling much of it through NWSL compensation.
> 
> So, for those who couldn't figure out why USSF pays WNT players in part through NWSL salaries, now you know.  In essence, USSF pays the women to play 10-20 NT games a year plus another 24 NWSL games because that's the only way it can keep getting its millions from VW and Nike for the long haul.  If the NWSL fails, USSF knows what happens - the WNT becomes beatable and poof, there goes USSF's main source of revenue.  But requiring the women to play 24 more games a year than the men just so they get paid "the same" - and so USSF can keep the millions of dollars in sponsorship money coming in long term - really means they're paying the women half as much but expecting twice as much.  The men get "the same" to play in half as many games, yet they get to do it poorly and USSF also lets them fly there on chartered planes.
> 
> In short, for those of you nodding your head in agreement with USSF's fact sheet, you are stupid.  You have no idea how USSF really makes money.  You have no idea how important the women are to USSF relative to the men.  MAP and I could play the outside back spots for the MNT and USSF revenue would probably increase due the increased entertainment value, especially since I'm targeting Guardado straight away.  I'd say I can't believe I need to explain this to people but, as mentioned in my prior post, I'm talking mostly to betas here.


Watching me play wide back and then watching me football tackle the forward the first time that he nutmegs me would be worth 100 million views alone!  Then after I got red carded, ejected and started a fight with the ref, they would have to be back include a mid 40’s ex football player in every MNT pool purely for entertainment purposes!


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

Changing topics, what genius thought it was a good idea to play Ireland in an absolute snoozefest in front of a 40% full stadium?  While I appreciated the pomp and circumstance, and the attempted homage to the history of the USWNT, the execution fell short.  There was little excitement generated by the pre-game show, the choice of highlights and videos was awful, the ESPN2 announcers made me realize just how good the World Cup crew was (when Mia Hamm is the best commentator, you need to re-think your on air talent). That brief cut to the brainstorming session video was a weird non-sequitur.

The recent NWSL games have been much better at showcasing the women's game, and they really did not do a great job of marketing that league either on this victory tour broadcast.  How about a follow up with Mia Hamm when she suggested the need for an LA NWSL team?  Her relationship/ownership position in LAFC provides an obvious next question.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> Changing topics, what genius thought it was a good idea to play Ireland in an absolute snoozefest in front of a 40% full stadium?  While I appreciated the pomp and circumstance, and the attempted homage to the history of the USWNT, the execution fell short.  There was little excitement generated by the pre-game show, the choice of highlights and videos was awful, the ESPN2 announcers made me realize just how good the World Cup crew was (when Mia Hamm is the best commentator, you need to re-think your on air talent). That brief cut to the brainstorming session video was a weird non-sequitur.
> 
> The recent NWSL games have been much better at showcasing the women's game, and they really did not do a great job of marketing that league either on this victory tour broadcast.  How about a follow up with Mia Hamm when she suggested the need for an LA NWSL team?  Her relationship/ownership position in LAFC provides an obvious next question.



I agree and would also add that Chicago and Utah Royals were playing a significant gaming WITHOUT WNT players!  A game that mattered to their teammates and they got to play against a team that would likely lose to top college teams while an meaningful game in the domestic professional league got skipped.  Is this what is truly best for US Women's soccer?


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

Not to mention that Portland drew Sky Blue (dropping them to 2nd place) and Washington lost to North Carolina (putting Washington out of the 4th playoff spot).  The level of ambivalence towards the NWSL that US Soccer shows is astounding.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

The games were excellent too.  The NWSL is the best top to bottom league in the world and the players get treated worse than in Europe.  My player most likely is going to play in England but Spain and France are big possibilities.  She would only play for Portland or North Carolina domestically so she hasn't decided if she is even going to put her name into the draft.  She doesn't want to get picked by a few of the teams that have better draft positions.  She won't be the only player from her team that goes to play in one of the top leagues in Europe.  The treatment of the NWSL by US Soccer hasn't gone unnoticed by American and other players...


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

And with Real Madrid getting into the game, and Barkley's becoming the title sponsor for the WSL in England this will only be the beginning.  Let's hope that the new WNT coach is willing to let players that don't get the "golden ticket" of a US Soccer contract play outside of the country and still be on the radar.


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## Lori (Aug 5, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> And with Real Madrid getting into the game, and Barkley's becoming the title sponsor for the WSL in England this will only be the beginning.  Let's hope that the new WNT coach is willing to let players that don't get the "golden ticket" of a US Soccer contract play outside of the country and still be on the radar.


MAP! These 2 posts are great! You obviously know what you are talking about! I recently read an article on the other soccer site regarding this...a top player for FSU said she will be better compensated from her University than the NWSL. I believe you said this before that unless you're on the US national team its hard to justify playing in the league for a large amount of time and they miss out on many top players when they would have been in their athletic and mental prime! They leave to go to into their profession. While I don't have an answer because I believe the NWSL is currently not a money making venture which like you said, US Soccer should be helping promote this league! Our players need choices and overseas may be the right one financially but honestly that is not their first choice, they want to play here!


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

Lori said:


> MAP! These 2 posts are great! You obviously know what you are talking about! I recently read an article on the other soccer site regarding this...a top player for FSU said she will be better compensated from her University than the NWSL. I believe you said this before that unless you're on the US national team its hard to justify playing in the league for a large amount of time and they miss out on many top players when they would have been in their athletic and mental prime! They leave to go to into their profession. While I don't have an answer because I believe the NWSL is currently not a money making venture which like you said, US Soccer should be helping promote this league! Our players need choices and overseas may be the right one financially but honestly that is not their first choice, they want to play here!


I agree they want to stay but unless they get a Golden Ticket it is more a labor of love.  The problem is these are intelligent and talented women that have options!  No worries the European leagues love American players and quietly many of the top players have been going to the top clubs in Europe a lot recently.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> And with Real Madrid getting into the game, and Barkley's becoming the title sponsor for the WSL in England this will only be the beginning.  Let's hope that the new WNT coach is willing to let players that don't get the "golden ticket" of a US Soccer contract play outside of the country and still be on the radar.


US Soccer needs to focus on increasing the appeal of the NWSL for our players, and move beyond paying salaries to 23 frozen roster sports. 

I would like to see them match up to the first $25k of salary for all domestic players in the NWSL for a start.  I estimate this would cost around $5 million annually, even with some expansion.  That is a good use for the large reserve they built up.  It would produce starting salaries in the league that are a viable option for non-National team top college players looking to spend a few more years playing soccer without having to rely on the charity of family or friends. 

I do not want to see US Soccer getting more involved in other aspects of the NWSL, as they are proven inept or corrupt (need we talk SUM?) at business.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> US Soccer needs to focus on increasing the appeal of the NWSL for our players, and move beyond paying salaries to 23 frozen roster sports.
> 
> I would like to see them match up to the first $25k of salary for all domestic players in the NWSL for a start.  I estimate this would cost around $5 million annually, even with some expansion.  That is a good use for the large reserve they built up.  It would produce starting salaries in the league that are a viable option for non-National team top college players looking to spend a few more years playing soccer without having to rely on the charity of family or friends.
> 
> I do not want to see US Soccer getting more involved in other aspects of the NWSL, as they are proven inept or corrupt (need we talk SUM?) at business.


Great idea!  Maybe US Soccer will do and actually become a non-profit and work towards their actual charter of promoting soccer in the US.  If they did it they could truly equalize pay and pay the players a set amount each time they appear in a camp (like the men's team).  I bet that the current crop of WNT players would be dead set against this idea.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Great idea!  Maybe US Soccer will do and actually become a non-profit and work towards their actual charter of promoting soccer in the US.  If they did it they could truly equalize pay and pay the players a set amount each time they appear in a camp (like the men's team).  I bet that the current crop of WNT players would be dead set against this idea.


That is what some have asked for, and it is the natural next step.  It will likely result in a short term pay cut for at least half of those 23 (not the stars).  Like Kerry, I was against this idea before I was for it.  But I think the risk of NWSL failing is past, and the formula needs to change.  The women need to put their eggs in the professional basket, not US Soccer, and make it priority #1.  Then the players will not let them schedule an meaningless game in the middle of their season, as you pointed out so well.


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## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> That is what some have asked for, and it is the natural next step.  It will likely result in a short term pay cut for at least half of those 23 (not the stars).  Like Kerry, I was against this idea before I was for it.  But I think the risk of NWSL failing is past, and the formula needs to change.  The women need to put their eggs in the professional basket, not US Soccer, and make it priority #1.  Then the players will not let them schedule an meaningless game in the middle of their season, as you pointed out so well.


As employees of US Soccer (remember, the woman have a different deal), they get paid for those meaningless games and in theory promote the game to a wider audience.

The women are trying to capitalize on their success through these friendlies/victory tour.  The money is and will always at the US National Team level.  They are chasing the dollars.

I believe the risk of the NWSL failing remains high, especially at its current subsidy levels.  It has yet to make a profit and will not make a profit for many, many years.  It also finds itself in a very difficult position given its lack of geographic diversity.

I've personally looked at 3 different deals for the acquisition of USL and USL II teams and in all cases they were bad investments.  Its almost impossible to make money in soccer in the US because there is not enough home games to offset expenses and there isn't legitimate TV deals.  The NWSL falls into the same boat as the USL.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> As employees of US Soccer (remember, the woman have a different deal), they get paid for those meaningless games and in theory promote the game to a wider audience.
> 
> The women are trying to capitalize on their success through these friendlies/victory tour.  The money is and will always at the US National Team level.  They are chasing the dollars.
> 
> ...


Watching injured players goofing around on the bench, an Ireland team put 11 players behind the ball and kick everything long, and a mediocre display of soccer in a mostly empty stadium, promotes turning the channel (my daughter did), and does nothing to increase interest in women's soccer.

If the money will always be with US National Team we lose, as the rest of the world is treating this as a business, and trying to build club/brand loyalty.  The female club soccer attendance records they are setting in Europe are based on letting the professional men's hard core members attend for free, and charging less that US$10 for many tickets.   They have aligned the women's teams with men's teams.  We have a lot of billionaire owners in the MLS these days, and US Soccer should be pressuring them to invest in the NWSL along side US Soccer, not just paying 23 women slightly more. 

Professional sports franchise ownership is almost always a negative cash flow investment and a vanity project, with the returns based on increasing franchise value, or the occasional stadium deal providing adjacent real estate opportunities, not cash flow.  I too have personally looked at many professional soccer team investments here and abroad (I will leave it at that), and none make much sense unless you expect to sell it for more in the end.  Just ask Mike Piazza.  If making NWSL cash flow positive independent of US Soccer and outside investment is our goal, it will never happen.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> As employees of US Soccer (remember, the woman have a different deal), they get paid for those meaningless games and in theory promote the game to a wider audience.
> 
> The women are trying to capitalize on their success through these friendlies/victory tour.  The money is and will always at the US National Team level.  They are chasing the dollars.
> 
> ...


Which is the problem!  US Soccer makes huge profits from it's ownership of SUM and negotiating TV rights with networks and bundling the US Men's and Women's National teams broadcast rights with the rights for MLS.  Why isn't the NWSL included in the same deal?  Why is there a separate deal for the women?  If they stopped just paying a small select group of players guaranteed salaries and put the money into the league (which helps the top female players stay at the top of their game and therefore win which makes for a more profitable television contract) then they will continue to insure that their cash cow keeps staying on top of the world.  Also it will end the equal pay argument because everyone men and women will get paid per camp appearance instead of getting to go to a camp injured because you are guaranteed to get paid and they don't want to double up what they are spending.

Honestly the current crop of players are pretty greedy and self interested (the American way!).


----------



## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> If the money will always be with US National Team we lose, as the rest of the world is treating this as a business, and trying to build club/brand loyalty.  The female club soccer attendance records they are setting in Europe are based on letting the professional men's hard core members attend for free, and charging less that US$10 for many tickets.   They have aligned the women's teams with men's teams.  We have a lot of billionaire owners in the MLS these days, and US Soccer should be pressuring them to invest in the NWSL along side US Soccer, not just paying 23 women slightly more...


As you correctly point out so far its been a massive subsidy and will remain a massive subsidy for years to come, both here and abroad.  The MLS model is exactly what the women do not want in the long term (nor the men), but in the short terms could work.  The single entity model, however, has to be blown up, so I don't know that is the path we want to explore.  The fundamental problem (and Billionaires tend to get this) is there is little to no ROI both short and long term in a professional women's league.  Soccer is not a national sports in the US, like it is in Europe and Latin America, so the appetite to subsidize is much, much, less.  The MLS doesn't have the TV revenue it needs to thrive and won't likely have those revenues until the quality of play greatly improves.  I just can't see how smart people are going to throw additional dollars at the "other leagues" yet, bad business move.

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic or just a realist, but there has never been a professional women's team sport league in the US that has succeeded financially.  Maybe the NWSL will be a first.


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## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Which is the problem!  *US Soccer makes huge profits from it's ownership of SUM and negotiating TV rights with networks and bundling the US Men's and Women's National teams broadcast rights with the rights for MLS*.  Why isn't the NWSL included in the same deal?  Why is there a separate deal for the women?  If they stopped just paying a small select group of players guaranteed salaries and put the money into the league (which helps the top female players stay at the top of their game and therefore win which makes for a more profitable television contract) then they will continue to insure that their cash cow keeps staying on top of the world.  Also it will end the equal pay argument because everyone men and women will get paid per camp appearance instead of getting to go to a camp injured because you are guaranteed to get paid and they don't want to double up what they are spending.
> 
> Honestly the current crop of players are pretty greedy and self interested (the American way!).


The premise of your post is slightly flawed.  Let's take a step back:

1) US Soccer aka the Federation DOES NOT have an ownership interest in SUM (Soccer United Marketing) last I checked.  SUM is a for-profit marketing arm of the MLS, which means SUM is exclusively controlled by the MLS owners and not the USSF.  I simply do not recall US Soccer reporting any ownership interest in SUM in any of their financials.  I don't know where you got this information, but I believe it is wrong.

2) Back in the day day, the TV Contract the federation negotiated was horrible.  Then the MLS/SUM came along and said, "Hey, Federation, you guys suck at negotiating TV rights deals, what if we bundled the MLS and US Soccer games in 1 rights package, the MLS/SUM keeps 2/3rd and US Soccer gets 1/3 AND we will guarantee a minimum yearly take."  Well, the Federation looked at the deal and said, sure.

3) Why wasn't the NWSL included?  Because the MLS/SUM didn't give a flying rats ass about the NWSL, this deal is really an MSL deal not a Federation deal.  Now, there is nothing stopping the NWSL from forming their own SUM type company and trying to make a deal with the Federation once the exclusive marketing rights deal expires, but ... we know how that will go.

4) Why is there a separate deal for the US Women.  The short answer is the women and men each formed unions.  The men negotiated their contract and the women said "F that we want a different deal, we want guaranteed salaries by the federation for our top women ... the men's deal sucks."  Fast forward to 2018/19 and they woman have remained successful and more and more money is being generated from a marketing perspective.  Now the women are saying ... "Woooaaa, we want to be paid "equally but different" ????  Yes, we want our guaranteed money, but we also want a greater piece of the pie so our wages more accurately reflect our marketing power and surpass the men who have a different more riskier deal."


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> As you correctly point out so far its been a massive subsidy and will remain a massive subsidy for years to come, both here and abroad.  The MLS model is exactly what the women do not want in the long term (nor the men), but in the short terms could work.  The single entity model, however, has to be blown up, so I don't know that is the path we want to explore.  The fundamental problem (and Billionaires tend to get this) is there is little to no ROI both short and long term in a professional women's league.  Soccer is not a national sports in the US, like it is in Europe and Latin America, so the appetite to subsidize is much, much, less.  The MLS doesn't have the TV revenue it needs to thrive and won't likely have those revenues until the quality of play greatly improves.  I just can't see how smart people are going to throw additional dollars at the "other leagues" yet, bad business move.
> 
> Maybe I'm overly pessimistic or just a realist, but there has never been a professional women's team sport league in the US that has succeeded financially.  Maybe the NWSL will be a first.


So why have an NWSL then since it isn’t profitable?  Let’s just have a USWNT and see how that works out for us.  Let’s see how much soccer grows in America when we only have no successful team to point to when they are trying to sell the broadcast rights.

You are only looking at one revenue bucket.  US Soccer has a job to do and building successful national teams is part of it.  Making a profit and creating a war chest isn’t.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> The premise of your post is slightly flawed.  Let's take a step back:
> 
> 1) US Soccer aka the Federation DOES NOT have an ownership interest in SUM (Soccer United Marketing) last I checked.  SUM is a for-profit marketing arm of the MLS, which means SUM is exclusively controlled by the MLS owners and not the USSF.  I simply do not recall US Soccer reporting any ownership interest in SUM in any of their financials.  I don't know where you got this information, but I believe it is wrong.
> 
> ...


So you are absolutely wrong.  SUM negotiates for MLS and US Soccer.  Please do a little more research.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> The premise of your post is slightly flawed.  Let's take a step back:
> 
> 1) US Soccer aka the Federation DOES NOT have an ownership interest in SUM (Soccer United Marketing) last I checked.  SUM is a for-profit marketing arm of the MLS, which means SUM is exclusively controlled by the MLS owners and not the USSF.  I simply do not recall US Soccer reporting any ownership interest in SUM in any of their financials.  I don't know where you got this information, but I believe it is wrong.
> 
> ...


You are in the Kool Aid and don’t know the flavor.


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## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> So you are absolutely wrong.  SUM negotiates for MLS and US Soccer.  Please do a little more research.


Nothing I wrote was incorrect.  I even wrote that SUM has the exclusive marketing contract with US Soccer.  What I wrote is that your statement that US Soccer has an ownership interest in SUM was wrong ... it does not.  Reread what I wrote and you will see its accurate.



MakeAPlay said:


> So why have an NWSL then since it isn’t profitable?  Let’s just have a USWNT and see how that works out for us.  Let’s see how much soccer grows in America when we only have no successful team to point to when they are trying to sell the broadcast rights.
> 
> You are only looking at one revenue bucket.  US Soccer has a job to do and building successful national teams is part of it.  Making a profit and creating a war chest isn’t.


We have an NWSL because there are enough "believers" with money that the league can work.  US Soccer also wants to believe and appreciates the necessity of the NWSL in developing talent beyond college, which is why it subsidizes the NWSL through guaranteed salaries.


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## pulguita (Aug 5, 2019)

MWN said:


> The women are trying to capitalize on their success through these friendlies/victory tour. The money is and will always at the US National Team level. They are chasing the dollars.


And that my friend is the root problem with soccer in the US.  No where else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income.  The focus is on being a professional.  No club in the worlds gets paid to develop talent for the National Team.  They get paid for creating professionals.  If that doesn't get corrected there is no hope.


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## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

pulguita said:


> And that my friend is the root problem with soccer in the US.  No where else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income.  The focus is on being a professional.  No club in the worlds gets paid to develop talent for the National Team.  They get paid for creating professionals.  If that doesn't get corrected there is no hope.


Yes ... but this is a discussion about women and not men.  The economics are completely different when men's soccer/football/futbol is the topic.  We have to subsidize the women's game at the professional level for all team sports (soccer, basketball, hockey, etc.) otherwise the women won't have a place to play, thus, depriving the national team of talent.


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## Bubba (Aug 5, 2019)

Found this article from S.I. written by Grant Wahl. 

The most heated topic in the U.S. Soccer presidential election has been the role of Soccer United Marketing and its business partner, the U.S. Soccer Federation. And now Don Garber, the MLS commissioner who is also the CEO of Soccer United Marketing, has answered 29 questions from SI.com designed to press him on the details of SUM’s role and get on-the-record responses.

U.S. Soccer, a non-profit organization, has a lucrative deal through 2022 with Soccer United Marketing, a for-profit company owned by Major League Soccer owners.


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## Bubba (Aug 5, 2019)

https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/01/25/sum-soccer-united-marketing-garber-gulati-carter


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## MWN (Aug 5, 2019)

Bubba said:


> Found this article from S.I. written by Grant Wahl.
> 
> The most heated topic in the U.S. Soccer presidential election has been the role of Soccer United Marketing and its business partner, the U.S. Soccer Federation. And now Don Garber, the MLS commissioner who is also the CEO of Soccer United Marketing, has answered 29 questions from SI.com designed to press him on the details of SUM’s role and get on-the-record responses.
> 
> U.S. Soccer, a non-profit organization, has a lucrative deal through 2022 with Soccer United Marketing, a for-profit company owned by Major League Soccer owners.


Correct, that is what we have been talking about SUM is the exclusive marketing partner for the US Federation.  The deal is lucrative for US Soccer in that it eliminates the risk of a media rights buy, by guaranteeing the Federation roughly $300M over the term.

When you consider that SUM negotiates and sold the broadcast rights for both the Mexican Federation and the US Soccer Federation, SUM has been able to generate far more revenues for US Soccer than its previous marketing partner IMG, which was basically a losing proposition for both.

SUM is a business designed to make the most money it can so it highly motivated to get the best deal it can.  So far, SUM has done a pretty good job for US Soccer, especially when you consider that in no broadcaster was willing to bid on the FIFA World Cup package in the US just a few years ago (2001).


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

I do not disagree with the idea that US Soccer got more by going with SUM than they were capable of doing separately.  US Soccer is worse at business and marketing than they are at managing youth soccer -- just look at their latest fact sheet for proof of incompetence.  

But in that SUM interview, Don Garber acknowledges that the MLS needed the US Soccer partnership to grow and succeed when the MLS was young,  losing money and at risk.  The NWSL does not have that same option, due to the SUM agreement including the USWNT.  US Soccer needs to pressure SUM to pay for and manage the NWSL rights also (and support the league), or give up the USWNT rights, and they need to make that a public fight.  Don's answer to the NWSL question was a laughable dodge -- "it is my understanding .. they negotiated a deal with Fox"  At the time of the interview, that Fox deal was over, the Lifetime deal was on life support, and Don had no good answer.  

But that goes back to the first point about US Soccer and their business skills.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 5, 2019)

pulguita said:


> And that my friend is the root problem with soccer in the US.  No where else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income.  The focus is on being a professional.  No club in the worlds gets paid to develop talent for the National Team.  They get paid for creating professionals.  If that doesn't get corrected there is no hope.


Correct you are.

In Europe, they realize further growing the sport means reaching new markets, and the largest is gaining more female fans.  That also mean's bringing  the women's game into the club fold.  Many of these clubs had small academies or "pro" women's teams in the past, they were just underfunded and non-essential side projects for a few coaches/players (Barcelona, for example).  They are now investing in them for branding and growth, not out of some sort of European chivalry or wokeness.  In the US, you have to go to a construction site or Las Vegas night club to get treated the way they treat an attractive women in public in France/Spain/Italy.  This is a business decision in Europe.

Further growth of the MLS will be facilitated by bringing in more female fans.  The youth and college soccer game is larger among girls than boys, girls and women's soccer is much more visible than any other female team sport, and a dozen women's national team members are far more popular and marketable than any domestic soccer player not named Pulisic.  We have dedicated MLS training facilities, soccer specific stadiums for the NWSL to play in (kudos to the MLS for getting those built).  So it is time to expand and/or affiliate and take the name of the local soccer club, wear the same colors, and reap the rewards of having Carli Loyd, Christen Press, Alex Morgan, Mallory Pugh, Rose Lavalle and a half dozen other outstanding soccer players and role models (or Megan Rapinoe for the Antifa crowd in Seattle and Portland) out there winning and cross-marketing your product and brand.  The incremental cost of an NWSL team for a major club is small compared to the benefit.  The Europeans have figured that out.

Two professional women's soccer leagues have failed going it alone.  NWSL is not immune to the same fate.  That brainstorming session should have been about growing the professional game (for men and women) in the US -- that will raise their pay.


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## outside! (Aug 5, 2019)

I for one think double header NWSL/MLS games would be a blast.


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## MWN (Aug 6, 2019)

@Dos Equis,

The advantage that Europe has is that there are already soccer fans in Europe.  The Premiere league sold its TV rights for $2B, which means advertisers are eager to spend money with the broadcasters.  The monies are split between the Premiere league teams, which are all independently owned and because of Pro/Rel, the clubs in the Championship League are itching to break through and grab some of that broadcast money.

The pressure to invest in women's soccer in Europe can be justified from a pure business standpoint, especially if the rights can be bundled with the men.  Even if its a push and a break even proposition, the goodwill is worth it.  

Here in the US, the broadcast money is $90M a season of which $30M goes to US Soccer for the National team rights.  What does SUM do with the other $60M ... subsidize the MLS and its operations, including its youth academies.  Remember, the MLS is a single entity, so there is no competition per se between clubs.  There is no Pro/Rel, the MLS and the MLS teams (owned by the MLS) have no competitive pressures.

English soccer’s Football Association (FA) secured a total turnover of UK£376 million (US$492 million) during the 2017/18 season.  Compare that to the US Soccer Federation's $130M.  The FA is nearly 4x the revenue, which means its member clubs are bringing in significant revenues and can afford much more charity.

I just don't see that happening in the US.  US Soccer  can pressure all it wants, but the MLS isn't going to take on the NWSL problem just yet.  What I see happening is the MLS will sit back and wait for the NWSL to run out of money and/or investor patience.  Then it will make a buy-out offer or more likely, start its own league once the numbers make sense.  Alternatively, the USL may join the fray.  The USL is sitting back right now getting its house in order, expanding the third and fourth divisions and laying a foundation for Pro/Rel.  It won't happen for a few more years, but the USL has a plan that will put pressure on the MLS and the women can benefit if done right.


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## Dos Equis (Aug 6, 2019)

MWN, your MLS ownership data is a incorrect. The teams are not owned by the league at this point, KC, LAFC, Miami, NYFC, LAGalaxy, Philly ...  are all separately owned, and within each ownership group are very wealthy individuals or corporations. For example, NYFC is owned by the same group as  Manchester City (hence the similar colors  and uniforms). The Illig’s /TIFEC bought Sporting KC from Lamar Hunt, and built that gorgeous stadium, with their personal billions from medical documentation and software business.  

The bidding for franchises has produced offers in of $150 million for the last two franchises, pre-stadium investments. Financial strength of the individual ownership groups has been the big difference in the health of the league today versus its early years.  

Regardless of soccer culture, acceptance and support of women’s sports has always been greater here than in Europe. 

I am not asking the MLS to save NWSL, I am pointing out that US Soccer helped save the MLS with the last rights deal, and now needs to show the same support for NWSL. I think the MLS would be making a good business decision to do so, and their owners can afford to.


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## MWN (Aug 6, 2019)

Dos Equis said:


> MWN, your MLS ownership data is a incorrect. The teams are not owned by the league at this point, KC, LAFC, Miami, NYFC, LAGalaxy, Philly ...  are all separately owned, and within each ownership group are very wealthy individuals or corporations. For example, NYFC is owned by the same group as  Manchester City (hence the similar colors  and uniforms). The Illig’s /TIFEC bought Sporting KC from Lamar Hunt, and built that gorgeous stadium, with their personal billions from medical documentation and software business.


No, but I can appreciate that its confusing if you are not a business lawyer.  Here is how it works:

The MLS (Major League Soccer, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company), owns all the teams and employs all players.  When a player signs a contract to play in the MLS that player's contract is with the MLS and not the team/team operator.

Limited liability companies operate like partnerships, but each investor is referred to as a "Member."  What we refer to as Franchisees are really Members of the LLC that have been given a right to operate the MLS's team in their market (referred to as Team Operators).  These Franchisees also must perform other duties, such as, providing a stadium that meets certain criteria, financing the operations within their market, etc.

When a franchisee spends $150M to buy a franchise, what they are really buying is a license to operate an MLS club and share in a portion of the revenue.  In fact, each MLS team name is a trademark of the MLS and not the individual operators/members.  (Check it out yourself  at USPTO.gov).

So let's take the Orlando City Soccer Club as an example:

The MLS, LLC owns the trademark "Orlando City" (Registration No. 4875167).
The MLS, LLC hires the players to play for its team.  This is important, the players play for the MLS and are assigned to play for a team, but are not employed by the operators of that team.  This relationship is well documented in the current Bargaining Agreement (https://s3.amazonaws.com/mlspa/Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-February-1-2015.pdf?mtime=20180213190926) 
The MLS, LLC plays games at the stadium, which is operated by a member.
Orlando Sports Holdings, LLC, is a member of MLS, LLC
Orlando Sports Holdings, LLC, operates the MLS, LLC, Orlando City SC team.
This is a good discussion of how it works in 2017 and currently:  https://medium.com/@isaac_krasny/unpacking-the-major-league-soccer-business-model-827f4b784bcd


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## MWN (Aug 6, 2019)

MWN said:


> When a franchisee spends $150M to buy a franchise, what they are really buying is a license to operate an MLS club and share in a portion of the revenue.


I was imprecise.  What I should have written was: 

When a franchisee spends $150M to buy a franchise, what they are really buying is MEMBERSHIP INTEREST in the MLS, LLC, that grants them a RIGHT to operate an MLS club in a DESIGNATED MARKET and share in a portion of the revenue


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 6, 2019)

MWN said:


> No, but I can appreciate that its confusing if you are not a business lawyer.  Here is how it works:
> 
> The MLS (Major League Soccer, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company), owns all the teams and employs all players.  When a player signs a contract to play in the MLS that player's contract is with the MLS and not the team/team operator.
> 
> ...


The NFL is a similar arrangement.  I hear that the NFL isn't registered as a sports league but as sports entertainment like WWE.


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## MWN (Aug 7, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> The NFL is a similar arrangement.  I hear that the NFL isn't registered as a sports league but as sports entertainment like WWE.


The NFL is a "business association" (and was granted 501(c) 6 tax-exempt status (which is recently dropped)) is a fundamentally different operating entity than the MLS.  In particular, the NFL and its member Clubs are distinct entities.  It is a sports league that is similar to the activities of SUM.

The difference between the MLS and NFL is that each club belonging to the NFL owns the trademarks and and employs the players.  The NFL merely collectively bargains on behalf of the member clubs.  What this means is that the NFL and its teams are not viewed as a "single-entity" for purposes of anti-trust.  The Supreme Court even had a case about this (American Needle).   The MLS on the other hand is skirting around the anti-trust rules by being a legitimate "single-entity," owning all of the team marks and employing the players.  While the clubs are Members of the MLS, LLC (similar to stockholders), they are granted an operating license to exploit the MLS, LLC property and must pay license fees in the form of revenue sharing.

Why the MLS did this is two fold.  

First, "soccer" does not enjoy certain anti-trust exemptions under the In particular, the NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA are all protected under the  Sports Broadcasting Act, which states that “_antitrust laws, as defined in section 1 of the Act of Oct. 15, 1914, as amended (38 Stat. 730) [15 U.S.C. 12], or in the Federal Trade Commission Act, as amended,_” should not apply to any agreement by or among people or teams playing or working in the realms of organized football, baseball, basketball or hockey, regarding the rights of any club within the aforementioned sports leagues to sell or transfer the rights of any club for broadcast.  Therefore, the MLS gets around this my embracing the "single entity" exemption under anti-trust laws.

Second, the MLS wanted to avoid the mistakes of failed leagues of the past and protect itself from clubs having the ability to break off and take their teams to another league.  By controlling all MLS intellectual property and players, the MLS can establish artificial barriers and avoid free market price pressures.  Each owner has an interest in all of the other teams because they own a piece of the LLC, thus, if a team was financially under pressure it would affect their investment in the MLS, so all members of the LLC are motivated to control costs to protect the smaller market teams.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 7, 2019)

MWN said:


> The NFL is a "business association" (and was granted 501(c) 6 tax-exempt status (which is recently dropped)) is a fundamentally different operating entity than the MLS.  In particular, the NFL and its member Clubs are distinct entities.  It is a sports league that is similar to the activities of SUM.
> 
> The difference between the MLS and NFL is that each club belonging to the NFL owns the trademarks and and employs the players.  The NFL merely collectively bargains on behalf of the member clubs.  What this means is that the NFL and its teams are not viewed as a "single-entity" for purposes of anti-trust.  The Supreme Court even had a case about this (American Needle).   The MLS on the other hand is skirting around the anti-trust rules by being a legitimate "single-entity," owning all of the team marks and employing the players.  While the clubs are Members of the MLS, LLC (similar to stockholders), they are granted an operating license to exploit the MLS, LLC property and must pay license fees in the form of revenue sharing.
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that the NFL is registered as sports entertainment and not a sporting league per se, sort of like the WWE.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 8, 2019)

*U.S. Soccer Federation Hires Lobbying Firm to Fight ‘Equal Pay’ Charges*





Getty Images/AFP/Johannes Eisele
WARNER TODD HUSTON8 Aug 2019174
1:47
*The U.S. Soccer Federation has reportedly hired a lobbying firm to refute claims of a pay gap after posting a public letter explaining that the U.S. Women’s National Team is actually not underpaid.*

The federation’s move also comes on the heels of a bill introduced by two liberal Senators — Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Patty Murray (D-WA) — that would require Olympic and amateur athletes to be paid equally, USA Today reported.

According to the paper, “FBB Federal Relations and Van Ness Feldman are working on behalf of U.S. Soccer and are circulating a presentation that states the women made more money than the men last year.”

“Due to the large number of requests we’ve received from policymakers since the Women’s World Cup, we are taking the proper steps to make sure that those leaders have accurate information and factual numbers that will inform them about the unmatched support and investment the U.S. Soccer Federation has provided as a leader in women’s football across the world,” Neil Buethe, a U.S. Soccer spokesman told Politico when the news broke.

In July, U.S. Soccer President Carlos Cordeiro released an open letter revealing information that turned the “equal pay” debate on its head by saying that, not only has the women’s team been paid more than the men, their league has lost millions of dollars in the process.

Still, the U.S. Women’s team spoke out against the lobbying effort.

Spokeswoman Molly Levinson said she is “stunned and disappointed” that the U.S. Soccer Federation “would spend sponsor dollars and revenue to advocate against laws that ensure that women are paid equally to men.”


----------



## espola (Aug 8, 2019)

Sheriff Joe said:


> *U.S. Soccer Federation Hires Lobbying Firm to Fight ‘Equal Pay’ Charges*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If all they are interested in is putting out "accurate information and factual numbers", why can't the existing staff do that?


----------



## MWN (Aug 8, 2019)

espola said:


> If all they are interested in is putting out "accurate information and factual numbers", why can't the existing staff do that?


Because existing staff doesn't have ABC, CBS, NBS, ESPN, etc. etc, cameras following them around town.  The fact that many law makers don't fundamentally understand that the USWNT are W2 employees and the USMNT are 1099 contractors speaks volumes about the ignorance of all.  US Soccer needs help from professional advocates.


----------



## MWN (Aug 8, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> I read somewhere that the NFL is registered as sports entertainment and not a sporting league per se, sort of like the WWE.


Its both.  Marketing and league.


----------



## End of the Line (Aug 9, 2019)

pulguita said:


> And that my friend is the root problem with soccer in the US.  No where else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income.  The focus is on being a professional.  No club in the worlds gets paid to develop talent for the National Team.  They get paid for creating professionals.  If that doesn't get corrected there is no hope.


This doesn't make any sense at all. The system is working perfectly, so perfectly that the USWNT has won the last two WCs. In fact, the reason the USWNT is so far better than others is largely because "nowhere else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income".  There just isn't any money in professional women's soccer and never will be. The only money makers in women's soccer are national teams, period. That will never change.

I just can't figure out why people want to overhaul easily the most successful women's soccer system in the history of the world and instead model it after foreign systems that have never won anything. But don't worry, USSF is doing its best to fulfill your wish.


----------



## pulguita (Aug 9, 2019)

End of the Line said:


> This doesn't make any sense at all. The system is working perfectly, so perfectly that the USWNT has won the last two WCs. In fact, the reason the USWNT is so far better than others is largely because "nowhere else in the world is the focus on the National Team for income".  There just isn't any money in professional women's soccer and never will be. The only money makers in women's soccer are national teams, period. That will never change.
> 
> I just can't figure out why people want to overhaul easily the most successful women's soccer system in the history of the world and instead model it after foreign systems that have never won anything. But don't worry, USSF is doing its best to fulfill your wish.


Here's why,  there are only 24-30 players in the pool for the National Team.  If all the money is just for those few why will women keep playing soccer as a "career"  for  10-20K a year?  Guess what?  They won't.  You think US women are going to keep hanging on for a carrot to make the full team?  Being totally dependent on who is in charge and evidently whatever the political climate is at the time?  Within 2-3 years women will be making more playing in the women's EPL than they will on their National Team (still not that much).  BTW are we sure your not Zoro?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 12, 2019)

Kate Markgraf was named the new GM for the USWNT as expected.  I do like her list of potential replacement coaches.  Between Riley, Harvey, Andonovski and Krikorian you can't complain about any of them.  They all have pro coaching experience and Krikorian is well versed in what is going internationally and the others are currently successful NWSL coaches.  I would be happy with any of them but I am pulling for Paul Riley.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Aug 12, 2019)

Anybody see Portland play the NC courage yesterday?  The Courage lost 2-1 on 2 own goals.  Pretty crazy...


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Anybody see Portland play the NC courage yesterday?  The Courage lost 2-1 on 2 own goals.  Pretty crazy...


Helluva game!  Put the ball in dangerous spaces and good things happen. Over 24,000 in attendance!!’


----------



## Goforgoal (Aug 12, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> Anybody see Portland play the NC courage yesterday?  The Courage lost 2-1 on 2 own goals.  Pretty crazy...


I was more interested in watching Franch handle business between the sticks like a boss.


----------



## soccerobserver (Aug 19, 2019)

An official court date has been set for May 5, 2020 for the USWNT and the USSF to battle it out before a judge...should be interesting as the court date comes before the next Olympic Games...

https://nypost.com/2019/08/19/uswnts-equal-pay-battle-now-has-a-court-date/


----------



## MakeAPlay (Sep 16, 2019)

https://www.orlandocitysc.com/post/2019/09/16/orlando-pride-forward-alex-morgan-ruled-out-remainder-2019-nwsl-season

Not a shocker.  A WNT player skipping the NWSL season because of a “stress reaction,”. Not enough of a reaction to stop her from collecting her US Soccer and endorsement money though!

This is why the money needs to be spread around.  Pay them like the men and put the money into the league.  Our superstar culture sucks for women’s team sports!


----------



## oh canada (Sep 24, 2019)

pulguita said:


> Here's why,  there are only 24-30 players in the pool for the National Team.  If all the money is just for those few why will women keep playing soccer as a "career"  for  10-20K a year?  Guess what?  They won't.  You think US women are going to keep hanging on for a carrot to make the full team?  Being totally dependent on who is in charge and evidently whatever the political climate is at the time?  Within 2-3 years women will be making more playing in the women's EPL than they will on their National Team (still not that much).  BTW are we sure your not Zoro?


NWSL player salaries are capped at a maximum of $46K.  Just let that digest a bit.  Most know that the average salary is $16K, but do we really want to encourage our daughters to go work in an industry that caps their worth at any amount (but especially at a figure that low)?  Collective bargaining at its finest.  When they say they want to spend every free hour practicing soccer, training with their team 4x/week and  "playing professional soccer," ask them how much $$ they think most players make.  That might change their plans.  Is it crushing dreams or being a responsible parent to provide a dose of reality?


----------



## espola (Sep 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> NWSL player salaries are capped at a maximum of $46K.  Just let that digest a bit.  Most know that the average salary is $16K, but do we really want to encourage our daughters to go work in an industry that caps their worth at any amount (but especially at a figure that low)?  Collective bargaining at its finest.  When they say they want to spend every free hour practicing soccer, training with their team 4x/week and  "playing professional soccer," ask them how much $$ they think most players make.  That might change their plans.  Is it crushing dreams or being a responsible parent to provide a dose of reality?


How much do players in USL make?


----------



## Dubs (Sep 24, 2019)

oh canada said:


> NWSL player salaries are capped at a maximum of $46K.  Just let that digest a bit.  Most know that the average salary is $16K, but do we really want to encourage our daughters to go work in an industry that caps their worth at any amount (but especially at a figure that low)?  Collective bargaining at its finest.  When they say they want to spend every free hour practicing soccer, training with their team 4x/week and  "playing professional soccer," ask them how much $$ they think most players make.  That might change their plans.  Is it crushing dreams or being a responsible parent to provide a dose of reality?


They can chase that dream as long as they get that degree first!!


----------



## Kicker4Life (Sep 24, 2019)

Dubs said:


> They can chase that dream as long as they get that degree first!!


I also know many who have turned their years of experience in the game into profitable businesses that are still tied to the game.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Sep 24, 2019)

Dubs said:


> They can chase that dream as long as they get that degree first!!


Plan “B” should always be Plan “A.”  For all but those 1-3 per birth year in the US there is very little money in domestic soccer for professional players and an injury can end it all in an instant!


----------



## MWN (Oct 1, 2019)

oh canada said:


> NWSL player salaries are capped at a maximum of $46K.  Just let that digest a bit.  Most know that the average salary is $16K, but do we really want to encourage our daughters to go work in an industry that caps their worth at any amount (but especially at a figure that low)?  Collective bargaining at its finest.  When they say they want to spend every free hour practicing soccer, training with their team 4x/week and  "playing professional soccer," ask them how much $$ they think most players make.  That might change their plans.  Is it crushing dreams or being a responsible parent to provide a dose of reality?


The answer is no we don't want our daughters working in an industry that doesn't pay a living wage ... which is why women's professional soccer will never be a viable as a business in its current form and why we should encourage our daughters and our sons to focus on their college degrees as their first, second and third choices.  Articles like this Forbes Article, understand the problem but the author's are either too blind to the reason or frightened of backlash to call it out.

The reality is that watching sports and attending games is "entertainment."  These athletes (men and women) are not providing anything of value to society, except for entertainment.  They are on the same level as comedians, singers, jugglers, magicians, actors and yes ... even strippers.  Athletes are entertainers and the product they provide is entertainment.  The consumer has limited entertainment time and dollars and consumes based on the quality of the product.  

To this end, the product of professional women's soccer is substandard compared to professional men's soccer because its much slower and the athletes as a whole demonstrate less skill.  There are far fewer people willing to spend their entertainment dollars and time watching players that are less skilled and much slower, which is why the USL2 v. the MLS v. the Premiere league have wildly different values and salaries.  When the average Flight 1/Gold/Premiere Boys U16 team can easily destroy every NWSL team there shouldn't be any doubt as to why the NWSL will never succeed as an entertainment vehicle.  (_Note, it was the practice of the USWNT to play DA U14 Boys teams to train, which often handily beat the USWNT and prior to the DA, the USWNT played BU14 ODP squads and often lost by large margins_)

Note, my comments are solely limited to the NWSL, WNBA, WNHL, and the other women's professional sports leagues.  Once we introduce the "national" team concept, consumers ignore the quality of the product and consume the entertainment on grounds related to "patriotism" and "national pride."  For this reason, millions will watch Olympic Curling but not curling in general.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 1, 2019)

MWN said:


> The answer is no we don't want our daughters working in an industry that doesn't pay a living wage ... which is why women's professional soccer will never be a viable as a business in its current form and why we should encourage our daughters and our sons to focus on their college degrees as their first, second and third choices.  Articles like this Forbes Article, understand the problem but the author's are either too blind to the reason or frightened of backlash to call it out.
> 
> The reality is that watching sports and attending games is "entertainment."  These athletes (men and women) are not providing anything of value to society, except for entertainment.  They are on the same level as comedians, singers, jugglers, magicians, actors and yes ... even strippers.  Athletes are entertainers and the product they provide is entertainment.  The consumer has limited entertainment time and dollars and consumes based on the quality of the product.
> 
> ...


You have written a few posts regarding women's soccer. What do you really think about women's soccer? Per this example and others you say things that I find questionable. Please no data, articles or examples. Just a real response.


----------



## MWN (Oct 1, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> You have written a few posts regarding women's soccer. What do you really think about women's soccer? Per this example and others you say things that I find questionable. Please no data, articles or examples. Just a real response.


I think the debate and discussion regarding professional women's soccer (and basketball and hockey and football and pick your team sport) in the US entirely misses the economic realities to the point that I'm totally frustrated with the proponent's lack of intelligence.  

The debate is focused on equal pay and equality issues, but as a business, the model is flawed.  Mind you, I have looked hard at USL and USL 2 deals and have come to the same conclusion ... the businesses are not viable.  You simply cannot have 8

Women's soccer at the amateur level is a resounding success.  Title IX has benefited women's soccer to the point that 20,000+ girls are able to subsidize their college education playing a sport they love.  That is great for these girls, but make no mistake that if college's were not required to offer an equal number of scholarships to girls pursuant to Title IX, the scholarships would dry up for every non-money sport out there.

The NWSL as a league is simply not viable given the economics of operating the league.  Only two or three clubs actually turn a profit (Portland being the main one).  If the league is to be viabile then it needs to be operated as a semi-pro league (which it is) and its operations subsidized by MLS teams (only 3 or 4 do), and the players need to appreciate the reality of playing for an insolvent business with little hope of becoming solvent.

Alternatively, US Soccer needs to tell the league we are shit canning the concept of privately held clubs/league and we are going to create US Soccer branded regional competitive teams to capitalize on the international success of the US Women's team.  These clubs (initially 4) would be located in key regional areas and compete against each other and regional teams (with the idea of fundraising for US Soccer/USWNT).  Change the entertainment paradigm from NWSL faux competition to fundraising for the women.  This would limit the number of athletes asked to play for $18k/year, allow wages to increase and recognize the economic realities of women's soccer.

I think pushing development for the core USWNT players is important, but doing it through the NWSL is not economically viable and will ultimately fail.


----------



## outside! (Oct 1, 2019)

Luckily we have Title IX, which has done a small part to make up for nearly a century of discrimination against women's soccer and women's sports.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/1921-when-football-association-banned-women-soccer-dick-kerr-ladies-lily-parr/

If the FA had not banned women's football, a good argument could be made that women's football would rival men's football in popularity in the UK. Since the UK started football, women's football might then be much more popular world wide.

MWN is correct that all sports are just entertainment. MWN is not correct with the assumption that everyone views men's soccer to be more entertaining (better) than women's soccer. I personally enjoy them equally.


----------



## MWN (Oct 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> Luckily we have Title IX, which has done a small part to make up for nearly a century of discrimination against women's soccer and women's sports.
> 
> https://www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/1921-when-football-association-banned-women-soccer-dick-kerr-ladies-lily-parr/
> 
> ...


Yes, I would be incorrect if I said that.  What I said was: "*There are far fewer people willing to spend their entertainment dollars and time watching players that are less skilled and much slower*, which is why the USL2 v. the MLS v. the Premiere league have wildly different values and salaries."  You fall into the "far fewer people" bucket and good for you.  We know that the NWSL averages attendance at around 5,100 souls per game and TV viewership of 124k on average so clearly people are watching and going to the games, but not in numbers that are significant to advertisers.  Whereas, NBC Sports' EPL broadcasts average 457,000 viewers ... just imagine that, over 3x+ the viewers to watch teams based in England v. watching our US women play on their NWSL teams.

I don't think the argument that women's football would be just as popular is good.  I don't watch the NWSL, I don't watch the USL2 or USL or UPSL or the MLS for that matter.  I watch the European Div 1 leagues and my son's soccer team(s).  That is it.  I will watch the USMNT and the USWNT because "'merica."  I believe I also am typical of the average soccer consumer in the US.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 1, 2019)

MWN said:


> I think the debate and discussion regarding professional women's soccer (and basketball and hockey and football and pick your team sport) in the US entirely misses the economic realities to the point that I'm totally frustrated with the proponent's lack of intelligence.
> 
> The debate is focused on equal pay and equality issues, but as a business, the model is flawed.  Mind you, I have looked hard at USL and USL 2 deals and have come to the same conclusion ... the businesses are not viable.  You simply cannot have 8
> 
> ...


That's not what I asked.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> Luckily we have Title IX, which has done a small part to make up for nearly a century of discrimination against women's soccer and women's sports.
> 
> https://www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/1921-when-football-association-banned-women-soccer-dick-kerr-ladies-lily-parr/
> 
> ...


Agree with your last statement.


----------



## outside! (Oct 1, 2019)

MWN said:


> I don't think the argument that women's football would be just as popular is good.


Why not? Did you read the article? Did you even know that happened when you were becoming a soccer fan? The FA banned women's football in 1921 because it was too popular and they saw it as a threat. From the article,

In 1920 "Dick, Kerr’s Ladies packed 53,000 into Everton’s Goodison Park; incredibly, an estimated 14,000 were left outside the ground unable to get in."

Perhaps your perception of the world is skewed by the fact that you did not grow up seeing women's sports and thus cannot appreciate the nuances of the women's game (that is still somewhat in its infancy when compared to the men's game that has had a century head start).


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 1, 2019)

MWN said:


> "*There are far fewer people willing to spend their entertainment dollars and time watching players that are less skilled and much slower.*
> 
> I don't think the argument that women's football would be just as popular is good.  I don't watch the NWSL, I don't watch the USL2 or USL or UPSL or the MLS for that matter.  I watch the European Div 1 leagues and my son's soccer team(s).  That is it.  I will watch the USMNT and the USWNT because "'merica."  I believe I also am typical of the average soccer consumer in the US.


Your bold and underlined statement when coupled with the statements that precede it paint a different picture. Isolated like this followed by the rest present something else. By itself its comes off being smug. You may be the typical consumer who does not have a daughter or a daughter that does not play soccer, but what about the families that have daughters that do play soccer. Are they not an average soccer consumer?


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Oct 1, 2019)

outside! said:


> Why not? Did you read the article? Did you even know that happened when you were becoming a soccer fan? The FA banned women's football in 1921 because it was too popular and they saw it as a threat. From the article,
> 
> In 1920 "Dick, Kerr’s Ladies packed 53,000 into Everton’s Goodison Park; incredibly, an estimated 14,000 were left outside the ground unable to get in."
> 
> Perhaps your perception of the world is skewed by the fact that you did not grow up seeing women's sports and thus cannot appreciate the nuances of the women's game (that is still somewhat in its infancy when compared to the men's game that has had a century head start).


MWN you’re too intelligent to miss the outstanding points outside made. The average American soccer consumer does not spend their money on EPL teams, but rather on youth soccer in the form of club fees, travel costs and extra. The average soccer consumers are parents of youth soccer players and a steadily increasing number of those are now female, and in time you’ll see how the money follows. You’re the kind of person that should be helping lead that charge, not arguing against it. And don’t try to slide out - sexism and nothing more is what underlies the opinion that women are slower and less skilled (aka lesser).  You can watch whatever you prefer to watch and your decision doesn’t warrant criticism, but you are wrong to center your opinion of the world on yourself.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Oct 24, 2019)

https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/10/24/nwsl-future-expansion-player-signings-us-soccer


----------



## Dubs (Oct 24, 2019)

Seems like things are headed in the right direction.  They need to take advantage of the momentum...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Oct 24, 2019)

And this too!  This will be a great hire!

https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/10/24/vlatko-andonovski-uswnt-manager


----------



## Justus (Oct 24, 2019)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/10/24/nwsl-future-expansion-player-signings-us-soccer


"This week, the NWSL announced it has hired Octagon to help value and sell its media rights and sponsorships."  


MakeAPlay said:


> And this too!  This will be a great hire!
> 
> https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/10/24/vlatko-andonovski-uswnt-manager


Loved the quote, "Build warriors around a play maker"...…...Sounds like the Lakers with Magic.  Build a team coach and keep kicking ass


----------



## Gimpyhip (Oct 24, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> sexism and nothing more is what underlies the opinion that women are slower and less skilled (aka lesser).


You make a lot of points that are worth debating but this line is just silly. It doesn't matter whether you share an opinion when it is relating to a measurable fact. Men are stronger, quicker, and faster than women. Physical skills such as those seen in soccer are partially training and mentality (women are certainly fully equal to men here) and partially physical capability. He is right about the USWNT playing and losing to high level boys teams regularly. This is the best team in the world at Women's soccer and they lose to 13-15 year old boys.
I really enjoy watching the USWNT. The women's version of the game is different and fun but the only sexism involved in them being slower and less skilled is the sexism inherent in evolution.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Oct 24, 2019)

Gimpyhip said:


> You make a lot of points that are worth debating but this line is just silly. It doesn't matter whether you share an opinion when it is relating to a measurable fact. Men are stronger, quicker, and faster than women. Physical skills such as those seen in soccer are partially training and mentality (women are certainly fully equal to men here) and partially physical capability. He is right about the USWNT playing and losing to high level boys teams regularly. This is the best team in the world at Women's soccer and they lose to 13-15 year old boys.
> I really enjoy watching the USWNT. The women's version of the game is different and fun but the only sexism involved in them being slower and less skilled is the sexism inherent in evolution.


If it wasn’t clear the first time, the sexism is in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because they are not as strong or fast.


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## Glen (Oct 24, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> If it wasn’t clear the first time, the sexism is in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because they are not as strong or fast.


So if I think college soccer is less entertaining than pro soccer because the players are not as strong and fast in college, it wouldn't be because of sexism.  But if I think women's soccer is less entertaining than men's soccer because the players are not as strong and fast, it would be because of sexism?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 24, 2019)

Glen said:


> So if I think college soccer is less entertaining than pro soccer because the players are not as strong and fast in college, it wouldn't be because of sexism.  But if I think women's soccer is less entertaining than men's soccer because the players are not as strong and fast, it would be because of sexism?


That’s just dumb.


----------



## Dof3 (Oct 25, 2019)

Vlatko Andonovski reported to be named as new USWNT coach.  Opinions?


----------



## Glen (Oct 25, 2019)

LASTMAN14 said:


> That’s just dumb.


What's dumb?


----------



## MakeAPlay (Oct 25, 2019)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/soccer/2019/10/25/nwsl-best-xi-reaction-players


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Oct 25, 2019)

Glen said:


> What's dumb?


Yup.


----------



## MWN (Oct 28, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> If it wasn’t clear the first time, the sexism is in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because they are not as strong or fast.


No, "sexism" would be in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because of subjective criteria relating to being females and not directly relevant to the task.  Once you use objective criteria such as strength and speed and skill to the consideration AND apply that criteria broadly, then you fall outside of the definition.  For example, if somebody were to say:

"I don't watch women's soccer because they are far too emotional."  <--- That's sexism
"I don't watch girl's soccer because its a boys sports." <--- That's sexism
"Women don't make good coaches because the are too empathetic."  <--- That's sexism
"I don't like watching any soccer, other than the European First Division leagues." <--- Not sexism
"I find the entertainment value very low for all pro and semi-pro leagues that are not the MLS in the U.S., which includes the USL Champions, USL-1, USL-2, NWSL, UPSL, etc." <--- Not sexism.

I personally, enjoy watching women's college basketball because they play below the rim and in my view it is a purer form of the sport.  I tend to avoid watching the NBA and NCAA-Mens.  Its not sexism because my reason is based on an objective standard relating to the quality of the entertainment. For those that find the greatest entertainment value in the speed and physicality of professional soccer games, its not sexism as long as its applied in a gender neutral manner and implicates other forms, such as, youth, college, high school, and the lower professional division.

By simply throwing around words like "sexism" for anything female related, you risk devaluing the word.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Oct 29, 2019)

MWN said:


> No, "sexism" would be in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because of subjective criteria relating to being females and not directly relevant to the task.  Once you use objective criteria such as strength and speed and skill to the consideration AND apply that criteria broadly, then you fall outside of the definition.  For example, if somebody were to say:
> 
> "I don't watch women's soccer because they are far too emotional."  <--- That's sexism
> "I don't watch girl's soccer because its a boys sports." <--- That's sexism
> ...


No, it is not based on an “objective standard relating to the quality of the entertainment”.  That is YOUR subjective standard. I, and many others, enjoy watching all levels of soccer (and other sports) involving boys, girls, men and women. 

“When the average Flight 1/Gold/Premiere Boys U16 team can easily destroy every NWSL team there shouldn't be any doubt as to why the NWSL will never succeed as an entertainment vehicle.” <—sexism is THE biggest obstacle for it to succeed as an entertainment vehicle.


----------



## MWN (Oct 29, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> No, it is not based on an “objective standard relating to the quality of the entertainment”.  That is YOUR subjective standard. I, and many others, enjoy watching all levels of soccer (and other sports) involving boys, girls, men and women.
> 
> “When the average Flight 1/Gold/Premiere Boys U16 team can easily destroy every NWSL team there shouldn't be any doubt as to why the NWSL will never succeed as an entertainment vehicle.” <—sexism is THE biggest obstacle for it to succeed as an entertainment vehicle.


We disagree on the fine point of "why."  Some may refuse to watch NWSL games based solely on the fact the players are women, thus, sexism would be an appropriate claim.  Others may refuse to watch NWSL games (and semi-pro and college games of both genders) based solely on the fact that the speed of the game is slower and/or the skill of the players do not represent the highest level of ability as demonstrated by players from the First Divisions, which would not be sexism.  "Why" a decision is a necessary requirement in any discrimination claim.

So let me try this again taking a more legal approach.  Sexism is discrimination based on sex.  Discrimination based on sex is illegal and wrong, unless there is an objective and reasonable justification that cannot be mitigated.   For example,

Denying men gynecological medical procedures is objectively reasonable discrimination because men to not have ovaries, vaginas, etc.
Denying employment to pilots who are blind is objectively reasonable discrimination because pilots need the ability to fly under VFR (visual flight rules) in the event of an instrument failure.

You shouldn't simply apply a discriminatory label without understanding the "why."


----------



## outside! (Oct 29, 2019)

MWN said:


> Others may refuse to watch NWSL games (and semi-pro and college games of both genders) based solely on the fact that the speed of the game is slower and/or the skill of the players do not represent the highest level of ability as demonstrated by players from the First Divisions, which would not be sexism.


So are you saying that female players are less skilled or do you equate speed with skill?


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Oct 29, 2019)

MWN, you’ve made a great attempt at logic here, but you fell short. I’m sure being the lawyer that you are, you were taught to consider the purpose and impact of law. 

Arguing that women’s basketball is objectively valuable entertainment but women’s soccer is not because speed and physicality applies in one case and not the other, and “pure form of the game” applies in one case and not the other makes no sense. You tried hard to back yourself out of that corner and I applaud your effort. I don’t think your opinion is intellectually honest. That’s just my opinion though. 

If a hypothetical person were to be fully supportive of women as different but equally capable, valuable athletes and they came to the conclusion that they didn’t watch any women’s soccer because they just didn’t like watching anything but the highest level of soccer, then ok, yes, I agree with you. But that is not reality and that is not how most people feel. College football and March Madness and heck even the little league World Series all get watched for a reason -  people enjoy watching sports at all levels. Why they don’t watch women’s sports as much as they watch lower level versions of other sports goes much deeper.


----------



## pulguita (Oct 29, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> MWN, you’ve made a great attempt at logic here, but you fell short. I’m sure being the lawyer that you are, you were taught to consider the purpose and impact of law.
> 
> Arguing that women’s basketball is objectively valuable entertainment but women’s soccer is not because speed and physicality applies in one case and not the other, and “pure form of the game” applies in one case and not the other makes no sense. You tried hard to back yourself out of that corner and I applaud your effort. I don’t think your opinion is intellectually honest. That’s just my opinion though.
> 
> If a hypothetical person were to be fully supportive of women as different but equally capable, valuable athletes and they came to the conclusion that they didn’t watch any women’s soccer because they just didn’t like watching anything but the highest level of soccer, then ok, yes, I agree with you. But that is not reality and that is not how most people feel. College football and March Madness and heck even the little league World Series all get watched for a reason -  people enjoy watching sports at all levels. Why they don’t watch women’s sports as much as they watch lower level versions of other sports goes much deeper.


That's part of your problem, they are equally valuable they are NOT equally capable.  I am currently watching a Barca game where a just under 17 year old started for Barca today.  Sorry there is not a female soccer player that I know of anywhere that would start on that team. That 17 year old is better than any female player on the planet.   Thus not equally capable.  I watch 4-6 hours of La liga and EPL every weekend.  I have watched less than 15 minutes of NWSL this year.  Its just not entertaining and frankly painful to watch.  To each his own opinions.  My daughter does not even watch women's soccer and I can guarantee you she watches more soccer than anyone on her team.  It all comes down to entertainment.  If its not entertaining people do not watch.  Sorry not sexist.  Kind of like music.  I have musical tastes, I listen to that type of music and I pay to see that type of music.  Others I don't listen to nor do I pay to see. Same with my futbol.  If its not up to my standard of what I like to see I don't watch.  And I am passionate about my futbol.   I have other things to do.  In a country that is not rabid and passionate about the best soccer on the planet what makes you think they will have any interest in women's soccer?


----------



## outside! (Oct 29, 2019)

pulguita said:


> I am currently watching a Barca game where a just under 17 year old started for Barca today.  Sorry there is not a female soccer player that I know of anywhere that would start on that team. That 17 year old is better than any female player on the planet.   Thus not equally capable.


Of course no female can start on Barca, men are much stronger and faster. Men also have the advantage of a playing environment that has over 100 years of development. Is that 17 year old actually more skilled than Marta or Macario? He may have a more developed soccer IQ since he has been able to play against more players with high IQ, but is he actually more skilled? Women generally have faster reflexes than men due to their on average smaller size and lower muscle mass. Look at a sport that has seen roughly equal opportunities for men and women over the years like gymnastics. While the men jump higher and display more strength, the women spin faster and change direction more quickly. As more women soccer players are exposed to high level play and the game develops, expect to see the women doing things in way that the men cannot. The people that say the the USWNT gets beat by U16 boys teams miss the fact that the men's superior speed makes up for many mistakes. If you want to compare males playing against females, look at the ages when they are roughly the same size and speed like U8 or U7.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Oct 29, 2019)

In


pulguita said:


> That's part of your problem, they are equally valuable they are NOT equally capable.  I am currently watching a Barca game where a just under 17 year old started for Barca today.  Sorry there is not a female soccer player that I know of anywhere that would start on that team. That 17 year old is better than any female player on the planet.   Thus not equally capable.  I watch 4-6 hours of La liga and EPL every weekend.  I have watched less than 15 minutes of NWSL this year.  Its just not entertaining and frankly painful to watch.  To each his own opinions.  My daughter does not even watch women's soccer and I can guarantee you she watches more soccer than anyone on her team.  It all comes down to entertainment.  If its not entertaining people do not watch.  Sorry not sexist.  Kind of like music.  I have musical tastes, I listen to that type of music and I pay to see that type of music.  Others I don't listen to nor do I pay to see. Same with my futbol.  If its not up to my standard of what I like to see I don't watch.  And I am passionate about my futbol.   I have other things to do.  In a country that is not rabid and passionate about the best soccer on the planet what makes you think they will have any interest in women's soccer?


I don’t know who “they” is. I guess people just like you? I have interest in women’s soccer. There’s quite a bit of data to show that others do too, in increasing numbers. But yes, to each her own.


----------



## ToonArmy (Oct 29, 2019)

I don't think comparing other sports to soccer and why we watch it and others don't makes sense especially in the USA where soccer isn't king for many reasons but technically speaking for us soccer fans I feel we enjoy watching the beautiful game when it is played well no matter who is playing it's a great game to watch even a random Gu9 flight 2 game when it's well played regardless of the level of athletic ability good soccer is good soccer so I feel the male better athletes than female argument is lame when it comes to soccer.

I also feel that there is nothing wrong or sexist at all by having the opinion that the best soccer players in the world play in the men's professional leagues in Europe and choosing to follow that over all other professional or amateur soccer leagues

For me personally I watch and follow a lot of sports. As far as soccer goes the club in England I support in number 1 follow then the rest of the EPL and uefa champions and europa league along with USWNT USMNT and FIFA competions then probably last just before everything else is women's college soccer mainly because I watch it with my daughter and watching local players. All other soccer MLS and men's college included I enjoy it when I stumble upon it. As far as NWSL I am clueless. I didn't even know the championship game was on Sunday I guess I was busy watching NFL. I did go to a thorns vs reign match when in Portland a few years ago and it was awesome! I'll watch it when stumbling across it but if they hope to grab me as a follower to help grow the sport it probably ain't gonna happen and that has nothing to do with quality or lack of it at all. If any of you posters on her has a daughter playing and it's telivised let us know hell yeah I'll watch


----------



## pulguita (Oct 29, 2019)

outside! said:


> Of course no female can start on Barca, men are much stronger and faster. Men also have the advantage of a playing environment that has over 100 years of development. Is that 17 year old actually more skilled than Marta or Macario? He may have a more developed soccer IQ since he has been able to play against more players with high IQ, but is he actually more skilled? Women generally have faster reflexes than men due to their on average smaller size and lower muscle mass. Look at a sport that has seen roughly equal opportunities for men and women over the years like gymnastics. While the men jump higher and display more strength, the women spin faster and change direction more quickly. As more women soccer players are exposed to high level play and the game develops, expect to see the women doing things in way that the men cannot. The people that say the the USWNT gets beat by U16 boys teams miss the fact that the men's superior speed makes up for many mistakes. If you want to compare males playing against females, look at the ages when they are roughly the same size and speed like U8 or U7.


Did you really say that?  Macario and Marta? Yeah he is pretty much more skilled, faster, quicker, stronger, better IQ should I go on and on?  And no the stepovers, the dekes, the passing, the ball strikes, the acceleration are all quicker, stronger faster with the 16 year old boys.   Why do you think that around U15-16 is were the special women players quit with the boys?  Just ask any SoCal club coach? Why do you think players like Macario and Marta quit playing against the boys at a certain age?   Should we also compare women hockey players with the men?  We'll play no check like the women do. Who do you think will win.  And finally please tell me what special skill you think a female soccer player is going to eventually do better than a male?  You have got to be kidding.


----------



## pulguita (Oct 29, 2019)

Soccerfan2 said:


> In
> 
> I don’t know who “they” is. I guess people just like you? I have interest in women’s soccer. There’s quite a bit of data to show that others do too, in increasing numbers. But yes, to each her own.


They would be most of the affectionados that I hang with, and most of the coaches I hang with unless it is imperative for their job to watch the women's game.  And apparently from the attendance I see at college games and the posted attendance for NWSL games I am not alone.


----------



## pulguita (Oct 29, 2019)

pulguita said:


> They would be most of the affectionados that I hang with, and most of the coaches I hang with unless it is imperative for their job to watch the women's game.  And apparently from the attendance I see at college games and the posted attendance for NWSL games I am not alone.


I am currently the only poster on this board that posts semi regularly that has a kid that has a Natty to her name which may change around December for some other folk but as of now is i am it.  So I do have a bit of insight into the women's game.


pulguita said:


> They would be most of the affectionados that I hang with, and most of the coaches I hang with unless it is imperative for their job to watch the women's game.  And apparently from the attendance I see at college games and the posted attendance for NWSL games I am not alone.


And before you go off and call me a sexist fascist pig ( a little pun) please realize I am the only regular poster on this board whose daughter has won an NCAA D1 Natty and 4 other National championships at the youth soccer level.  And I also think as do many others that she plays like a boy and that is the best compliment you can ever give her!  Just ask her.


----------



## MWN (Oct 30, 2019)

outside! said:


> So are you saying that female players are less skilled or do you equate speed with skill?


Equating strength and speed with skill.  There is no dispute that many female soccer players have the same intelligence and mastery of various ball skills as the best male players.  But when you accelerate the various elements additional skills present themselves.  Moreover, and this is an important point, the game is played with 22 players.  When all 22 are playing their respective positions at the highest level of athleticism, its far more entertaining.  I actually love it when some defender successfully shuts down Messi, when a GK flies through the air from post to post to stop a well placed shot, when a striker nails a goal by bending the ball around a wall from 30 yards out, and when a team (men or women) connect 19 consecutive passes on their way to a goal.

Discrimination is a two edged sword, there are those that are rewarded and those that lose.  With limited entertainment dollars and time available, there is nothing wrong with choosing to support semi-professional women's soccer (_I say semi-pro because the majority of the players are not paid a living wage)_.   Its technically sexist to go to a NWSL game because they are women, just as it would be to avoid a game for the same reason.  If anybody finds good entertainment value watching an NWSL game, then good for you.

Ultimately, we all need to appreciate that this is nothing more than entertainment.  Athletes are the same as Actors, Musicians, Dancers, and even Strippers.  They are entertainers and whatever the sport, need to compete for entertainment dollars with the the other leagues, which are all chasing a finite amount of entertainment dollars.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Dec 10, 2019)

Too funny 


https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2019/12/10/meghan-rapinoe-wins-sports-illustrateds-sportsperson-year-doesnt-go-well/


----------



## dad4 (Dec 11, 2019)

outside! said:


> So are you saying that female players are less skilled or do you equate speed with skill?


Yeesh.  Top female soccer players, on average, cannot beat top male soccer players.

That doesn't mean I won't buy season tickets if NWSL ever creates a team near me.  I totally will.  But it is silly to pretend that NC Courage could beat an EPL team.


----------



## espola (Dec 11, 2019)

dad4 said:


> Yeesh.  Top female soccer players, on average, cannot beat top male soccer players.
> 
> That doesn't mean I won't buy season tickets if NWSL ever creates a team near me.  I totally will.  But it is silly to pretend that NC Courage could beat an EPL team.


The US womens national team regularly plays scimmages against 15 to 16-year-old boys teams (ODP or DA).  They regularly lose badly.  The boys have a ball.


----------



## outside! (Dec 11, 2019)

dad4 said:


> Yeesh.  Top female soccer players, on average, cannot beat top male soccer players.
> 
> That doesn't mean I won't buy season tickets if NWSL ever creates a team near me.  I totally will.  But it is silly to pretend that NC Courage could beat an EPL team.


When I said "skill" I was referring to ball handling skills, not speed/strength. You seem to confuse the two. Teams with players that are faster and stronger often beat teams that are more skilled, it happens in u-littles all the time.


----------



## pulguita (Dec 11, 2019)

outside! said:


> When I said "skill" I was referring to ball handling skills, not speed/strength. You seem to confuse the two. Teams with players that are faster and stronger often beat teams that are more skilled, it happens in u-littles all the time.


What takes more skill hitting a base ball at 98 or at 55?  Of course speed has something to do with skill.   Speed and strength takes away time and space.  So collecting a ball, skills etc requires more skill the faster the game becomes.  Ubove 16 years old boys/men generally play at a faster rate with less time and space than girls/women.   Thus they are more skillful.  They strike the ball harder, they pass quicker and with more speed, they can drive a ball further, they change direction faster, they accelerate faster.  All of that requires more skill on the ball because of those aspects.   What part of it do you not get?


----------



## outside! (Dec 11, 2019)

pulguita, thank you for the explanation and I agree on those points. There is also the fact that the men's game has had a longer time to evolve at a high level such that more men are capable of playing at a tactically higher level, which creates a better training environment for all men. Having said all of that, there are ahtletic areas where women are capable of things that men are not. Gymnastics comes to mind. In the end it is fruitless to compare the two. Men and women are different. While it is a good training tool for women to play against men, the differences in speed and strength force the women to play differently (especially keepers) such that this type of training is only done sparingly to avoid developing habits that would be detrimental in a high level women's game. I was never trying to assert that women's soccer was somehow better, only that it was worthwhile to watch. Sunday's NCAA Stanford vs. UNC was a great game.


----------



## PruritusAniFC (Dec 12, 2019)

espola said:


> The US womens national team regularly plays scimmages against 15 to 16-year-old boys teams (ODP or DA).  They regularly lose badly.  The boys have a ball.


Who loses badly? Women or boys...I got confused.


----------



## espola (Dec 12, 2019)

PruritusAniFC said:


> Who loses badly? Women or boys...I got confused.


The women lose 5-1 or so.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 3, 2020)

Rumor has it US Soccer has hired a new coach for the women’s U20’s.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Jan 3, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Rumor has it US Soccer has hired a new coach for the women’s U20’s.


PD?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 3, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> PD?


Where is the face palm emojie?


----------



## Soccerhelper (Jan 4, 2020)




----------



## Soccer43 (Jan 4, 2020)

I’m guessing Laura Harvey


----------



## SoccerJones (Jan 8, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> I’m guessing Laura Harvey


you guessed right!  lol


----------



## RHMF23 (Jan 29, 2020)

USWNT 4 - Haiti 0

A win is a win as the reports are saying despite how poorly they played.  They have a long road ahead if they want a chance in the Olympics after last nights play.  It was ugly soccer.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 29, 2020)

RHMF23 said:


> USWNT 4 - Haiti 0
> 
> A win is a win as the reports are saying despite how poorly they played.  They have a long road ahead if they want a chance in the Olympics after last nights play.  It was ugly soccer.


I agree but am withholding judgement until the end of the tournament.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 11, 2020)

Here’s to hoping they lose every game this year.









						US Soccer to Allow Protests During the National Anthem
					

U.S. Soccer’s board of directors has voted to repeal a 2017 policy that required national team players to stand during the national anthem




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Here’s to hoping they lose every game this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are part of the problem Joe.  You are part of why so many black people are disillusioned in America.  You are a traitor.  Just like those that are okay with the Confederate flag being displayed.  You are a fake patriot.  I hope that nobody kneels on your daughter's neck.  I hope that one day you need a person of color to show some mercy on you and some kindness towards you so that you can wake up to how fucking racist you are.

You make me sick.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Here’s to hoping they lose every game this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 11, 2020)

it's not about the flag you dumbasses.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 11, 2020)

Change is coming folks.  God Bless you all.  Forgiveness is the key to love.  Soccer was the last domino.  US Soccer has said their sorry and they get the message loud and clear.  The salt shaker was turn upside and some people aren;t too happy about it.


----------



## outside! (Jun 11, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> The salt shaker was turn upside and some people aren;t too happy about it.


Yeah, a good number of them are my relatives. I've been on the inside, I can spot a white racist a mile away.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 11, 2020)

outside! said:


> Yeah, a good number of them are my relatives. I've been on the inside, I can spot a white racist a mile away.


@outside! only.  My dear adopted Mother, who I love so much, would be tripping out right about now.  She would be 101.  She was a good lady with a good heart but history taught her to be a little racist if you know what i mean.  She was adopted when she was 3 after spending her first 3 years in foster care.  She went to Los Angeles High School and USC.  She said the N word and called Brown people the B word or just that they were all Mexican.  My mom was not happy when I was engaged to a black woman back in the day.  Not too happy but I did what I wanted to do.  She at first was a little off with my wife but came around later.  Our kids are doing that right now and America is changing for all peeps.


----------



## Yousername (Jun 11, 2020)

outside! said:


> Yeah, a good number of them are my relatives. I've been on the inside, I can spot a white racist a mile away.


It’s not too hard to spot them on here. Just look for the names Outlaw and Sheriff Joe.


----------



## LadiesMan217 (Jun 11, 2020)

Yousername said:


> It’s not too hard to spot them on here. Just look for the names Outlaw and Sheriff Joe.


Trolls (mostly of snowflakes) - yes. Racists - not sure. Someone who makes you mad or makes you critically think is not necessarily racist. I have not read all of their posts so maybe I missed something that was truly racist; but, I have not seen it.


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 11, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are part of the problem Joe.  You are part of why so many black people are disillusioned in America.  You are a traitor.  Just like those that are okay with the Confederate flag being displayed.  You are a fake patriot.  I hope that nobody kneels on your daughter's neck.  I hope that one day you need a person of color to show some mercy on you and some kindness towards you so that you can wake up to how fucking racist you are.
> 
> You make me sick.


Easy man you can't change stupid. You only can make people aware of the problem with being American.


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 11, 2020)

In 'American Race,' Charles Barkley Is A Stubborn Believer In The Power Of Dialogue
					

In the new TNT docu-series about race, the former NBA star is mostly indifferent to the broader context of the discussions he's wading into — and to the limits of trying to "start a dialogue."




					www.npr.org


----------



## Kicknit22 (Jun 11, 2020)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Trolls (mostly of snowflakes) - yes. Racists - not sure. Someone who makes you mad or makes you critically think is not necessarily racist. I have not read all of their posts so maybe I missed something that was truly racist; but, I have not seen it.


Then you’re clueless.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are part of the problem Joe.  You are part of why so many black people are disillusioned in America.  You are a traitor.  Just like those that are okay with the Confederate flag being displayed.  You are a fake patriot.  I hope that nobody kneels on your daughter's neck.  I hope that one day you need a person of color to show some mercy on you and some kindness towards you so that you can wake up to how fucking racist you are.
> 
> You make me sick.


What Good does pig sock for racial equality?
Not a fucking thing, what does a white dyke know about being black?
Not a fucking thing.
White people are ok when they are passing out scholarships, huh?
Spare me.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


>


Wasn’t me.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> it's not about the flag you dumbasses.


Then tell them to quit burning it.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

Kicknit22 said:


> Then you’re clueless.


Find my racist post please.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

Maybe this will help the ignorant liberal victim minded and the other losers full of white guilt.

rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
 Learn to pronounce
noun
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.


----------



## Yousername (Jun 13, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Maybe this will help the ignorant liberal victim minded and the other losers full of white guilt.
> 
> rac·ist
> /ˈrāsəst/
> ...


So then, what’s YOUR definition of racist? Not the textbook, but your definition? What’s your definition of discrimination? Prejudice? A discussion can’t be had until everyone knows everyone’s definition. What you may think is racist may not be what others think is racist? There in lies the problem with trying to have conversations. Many times, you’re arguing things but not using common, agrees upon language. 
I think you truly don’t see yourself as racist, discriminating or prejudice because your definition is different than mine... or many others. So we can’t have a conversation because I don’t subscribe to the idea of you calling certain people “dykes”, for instance, as not discriminatory.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 13, 2020)

Yousername said:


> So then, what’s YOUR definition of racist? Not the textbook, but your definition? What’s your definition of discrimination? Prejudice? A discussion can’t be had until everyone knows everyone’s definition. What you may think is racist may not be what others think is racist? There in lies the problem with trying to have conversations. Many times, you’re arguing things but not using common, agrees upon language.
> I think you truly don’t see yourself as racist, discriminating or prejudice because your definition is different than mine... or many others. So we can’t have a conversation because I don’t subscribe to the idea of you calling certain people “dykes”, for instance, as not discriminatory.


My definition of racism is judging one solely by race, denying anything solely by race. Illegal alien is not a race.
I have 9 Hispanics working for me that I hired.
My wife is 0 white and my daughter is 1/2 white.
What is your definition?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

Why Civil Rights Attorney Leo Terrell 'Stopped Drinking the Democratic Kool-Aid'
Beth Baumann | Jun 14, 2020 10:22 AM

Why Civil Rights Attorney Leo Terrell 'Stopped Drinking the Democratic Kool-Aid'
Source: Twitter/Screenshot

One of the talking points that continually comes out of the Democratic Party and the Democratic Media Complex is that the Republican Party is racist or filled with white supremacists because people support law enforcement officers and don't immediately bend the knee to the rage bomb. Most of them seem to forget, however, that it was the Republican Party that pushed for freeing black slaves, which lead our nation to the American Civil War. It was President Abraham Lincoln – a Republican – that delivered the Emancipation Proclamation. It was the Republican Party that championed the landmark Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court decision that created desegregation in schools. Democrats were against all of those things yet they are somehow put on a pedestal as if they have always advanced the needs of African Americans. 


It's those very reasons that civil rights attorney Leo Terrell has had enough of the Democratic Party.

"This is why I stopped drinking the Democrat Kool-Aid. I can’t take this hypocrisy anymore. It’s ridiculous," he explained during a Friday night segment on "Hannity."

"Richard Russell from the South was against integration. He was opposed to anti-lynching bills. That's what bothers me about this whole thing, that Democrats, just because of the D in their name, they could be a racist," Terrell explained. "That statement by Joe Biden is so offensive and then you spike glee out there and say, 'It's okay.' That's offensive. If any Republican said the same thing they would be in trouble, big trouble."

"Joe Biden gave us the crime bill in 1994. President Trump gave us the First Step," he said. "The bottom line is this: I don't need the Democrats to insult me or try to placate me with African garb, Nancy Pelosi. Pass some laws. Pass some reforms. Show me something other than some kind of condescending act just because you're a Democrat. That doesn't follow anymore."

Terrell also made one very true point: if someone identifies as a Democrat but they believe in law and order, they won't see it from that political party.



Beth Baumann
✔
@eb454
 Leo Terrell is on point about the Democratic Party’s Kool-Aid:


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

#METOO








						Black organizers in Seattle autonomous zone doubt sincerity of white protesters
					

Inside Seattle’s self-proclaimed autonomous zone, black organizers have expressed doubt over the sincerity of white protesters, as the commandeered six blocks have transformed into a festival-like scene with many snapping selfies in front of murals of men and women killed by police.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

Donald Trump Threatens to Boycott the NFL and U.S. Soccer if Players Kneel for Anthem Protest
					

President Donald Trump criticized American organizations for making steps to allow players to kneel in protest during the national anthem.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

Clyburn: Education, Health, Judicial Systems Designed to ‘Maintain Suppression of African-Americans’
					

Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union," while discussing the Friday night death of Rayshard Brooks in Atlanta, House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn (D-SC) said America's judicial system, health care system and educational system "have been put together in order to maintain suppression of...




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

This isn’t helping, lying that is.









						Stacey Abrams: People Who Go to Trump's Rallies 'Do Not Care About Black Lives'
					

Sunday on ABC's "This Week," former Georgia Democratic gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams, who is often mentioned as a possible running mate for presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden, accused President Donald Trump's supporters of not caring about black lives. | Clips




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> #METOO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw so many white people going down to "check it out" yesterday, during the day when its all safe and I was thinking that the true believers of this movement might take offense.  They need to go down there at night with their tents and sleep with them and help them fix what needs to be fixed, together in the battle.  Love your black neighbors just like your white neighbors.  That means you need to be true neighbors.  We can;t deny the fact that relations are poor at best down there.  I was at Pikes Market place and Amazon Jan 22 this year.  It was cool and different.  Let Seattle fix it and start something new. Tucker made fun of some guy on Friday that was obviously mentally ill and I hated that interview.  It was mean spirited and Tucker was wrong imo. Maybe these whites saw that and decided to go down and lend a hand and food and money.  Plus the mayor siad all it is is one big festival and that's what I saw on TV yesterday.  Then went on a date and came back and Atlanta Wendys is being lit on fire by white guys in yellow helmets.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 14, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I saw so many white people going down to "check it out" yesterday, during the day when its all safe and I was thinking that the true believers of this movement might take offense.  They need to go down there at night with their tents and sleep with them and help them fix what needs to be fixed, together in the battle.  Love your black neighbors just like your white neighbors.  That means you need to be true neighbors.  We can;t deny the fact that relations are poor at best down there.  I was at Pikes Market place and Amazon Jan 22 this year.  It was cool and different.  Let Seattle fix it and start something new. Tucker made fun of some guy on Friday that was obviously mentally ill and I hated that interview.  It was mean spirited and Tucker was wrong imo. Maybe these whites saw that and decided to go down and lend a hand and food and money.  Plus the mayor siad all it is is one big festival and that's what I saw on TV yesterday.  Then went on a date and came back and Atlanta Wendys is being lit on fire by white guys in yellow helmets.


The people who came late are just people who support police reform but want no part of riots and looting.  The kind who man phone banks and get out the vote.  That’s the real battle.  Not throwing paint and breaking windows.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> The people who came late are just people who support police reform but want no part of riots and looting.  The kind who man phone banks and get out the vote.  That’s the real battle.  Not throwing paint and breaking windows.


Gotcha.  That actually makes more sense to me.  I hope they still support the community after the elections.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> My definition of racism is judging one solely by race, denying anything solely by race. Illegal alien is not a race.
> I have 9 Hispanics working for me that I hired.
> My wife is 0 white and my daughter is 1/2 white.
> What is your definition?


Just cause you didn't marry white doesn't automatically qualify you for not being racist.  It's pretty clear that you are very racist...probably THE most racist poster on this board.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Just cause you didn't marry white doesn't automatically qualify you for not being racist.  It's pretty clear that you are very racist...probably THE most racist poster on this board.


You know, I was actually told by someone a few years ago that it's worse if your a white man and you marry outside of your race.  One lady yelled at me and told me I only married my wife so i could own her.  It hurt but she was so angry at me because of my color and just judged me by my appearance and didn;t want to get to know me at all.  She just judged me through her pain and lenses.  My wife and I know why we got married and no one can take that away.  Its dam if you do and dam if you don't.  Either or country and this is what we get for being that way.  Only winners and losers in this country.  Pick a side they say.  I say, "not!!!"  Wonder why all the Mystics and Hermits bailed on city life and went into the hills?  They say they do it because they can;t handle the politics of dualism thinking.  It's really little brain stuff filled with selfishness, jealousy, envy, lying, cheating and and hate. Talk about a human atom bomb. Yes, were all made of of little atoms and were about to blow ourselves up with all the hate and "I'm right, your wrong."  Child's games being played here and we all know it but we can;t stop it.  Hate has to run it;s course for love to finally conquer the world.  Stop being little boys and put some action together for the betterment of all of us.  We can do it and we each hold the key to unlocking the true power.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Easy man you can't change stupid. You only can make people aware of the problem with being American.


It’s a free country and you are free to get the fuck out.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Just cause you didn't marry white doesn't automatically qualify you for not being racist.  It's pretty clear that you are very racist...probably THE most racist poster on this board.


Please find a racist post of mine.

I say call Obama a Kenyan, racist?
I say send illegals back, racist?
I call radical muslims towel heads, racist?
I call the red Chinese Chicoms, racist?


----------



## espola (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Just cause you didn't marry white doesn't automatically qualify you for not being racist.  It's pretty clear that you are very racist...probably THE most racist poster on this board.


He was undoubtedly the most racist poster here, but now he has some strong competition.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

espola said:


> He was undoubtedly the most racist poster here, but now he has some strong competition.


Are you talking about the traditional meaning of racist or the nuanced meaning of racist?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Please find a racist post of mine.
> 
> I say call Obama a Kenyan, racist?
> I say send illegals back, racist?
> ...


You just answered your own question four times!  LOL


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> It’s a free country and you are free to get the fuck out.


It’s much much better if we get rid of the racists like you from our country.  Walls are closing in on you buddy...do you feel it?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 14, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> You know, I was actually told by someone a few years ago that it's worse if your a white man and you marry outside of your race.  One lady yelled at me and told me I only married my wife so i could own her.  It hurt but she was so angry at me because of my color and just judged me by my appearance and didn;t want to get to know me at all.  She just judged me through her pain and lenses.  My wife and I know why we got married and no one can take that away.  Its dam if you do and dam if you don't.  Either or country and this is what we get for being that way.  Only winners and losers in this country.  Pick a side they say.  I say, "not!!!"  Wonder why all the Mystics and Hermits bailed on city life and went into the hills?  They say they do it because they can;t handle the politics of dualism thinking.  It's really little brain stuff filled with selfishness, jealousy, envy, lying, cheating and and hate. Talk about a human atom bomb. Yes, were all made of of little atoms and were about to blow ourselves up with all the hate and "I'm right, your wrong."  Child's games being played here and we all know it but we can;t stop it.  Hate has to run it;s course for love to finally conquer the world.  Stop being little boys and put some action together for the betterment of all of us.  We can do it and we each hold the key to unlocking the true power.


Nothing wrong with marrying outside your own race.  You don’t need to be apologetic to anybody.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> You just answered your own question four times!  LOL


So I guess it’s the nuanced snowflake version.
Now I know.
Thank you.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> It’s much much better if we get rid of the racists like you from our country.  Walls are closing in on you buddy...do you feel it?


If you call everyone you disagree with racist and then get rid of them who will you argue with?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Nothing wrong with marrying outside your own race.  You don’t need to be apologetic to anybody.


I notice he generally pipes in with his racist/sexist blasting comments and most people do not even acknowledge him  because he is so extreme on every level.  I have been perplexed why he inserts himself on soccer chats since no one gives him the attention he is looking for except now.   I believe he tries to get attention so with people like him, you need to just ignore him.  It doesn't appear he has any child in soccer and he should go to the other non soccer boards.  Considering the fact he inserted hate speech in his comment above, Dominic should ban him.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 14, 2020)

By the way Dominic...I love the ignore feature!!!!


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 14, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> it's not about the flag you dumbasses.


Serious question.  Aren't people who kneel during the playing of the national anthem in fact doing so as a tactic for the express purpose of eliciting outrage?  But for the outrage, how would kneeling during the anthem draw attention to anything?  If nobody cared that it was being done, would it have been a good tool to choose?  I completely agree that the purpose of the protest has nothing to do with the flag or the military or the anthem for many (others have refused to sing the anthem because they find it, and particularly certain parts of the long form of it, to be racist - it may be about the anthem itself among other things to them, which I find to be perfectly reasonable in that case).  But the use of the anthem was an intentional tool to offend people and through that response draw attention to the point of the protest.  If Nate Boyer says sitting would not be OK, but kneeling is and Kaepernick accepts that view and thus kneels, would sitting then have made the protest about the flag instead of about police brutality and racial injustice?  Why am I am dumbass if I think the tactic is disrespectful?  Is Boyer a dumbass because he disagreed with sitting?

 

Might Sgt. Carney disagree with kneeling?  Seems to me like Sgt. Carney would have pretty good standing to take a position on this issue.  Maybe he would disagree, maybe he wouldn't.  But given his effort to keep the flag off the ground, I think there is a good chance it wouldn't be his preferred tactic.  People can reject a tactic without rejecting an idea or a message.  I can think murdering George Floyd was disgusting, vicious and criminal and still think burning down business in his name is a bad tactic.  And if enough people reject a tactic, it doesn't move forward the idea.  I believe in a person's right to burn the flag, spit on the flag, desecrate the flag; it is part of what makes America different and better than those other countries around the world that will, today, kill a person and imprison that person's family for doing it.  That doesn't mean I don't wish the athletes who are going to kneel in the future would choose a less divisive tactic.  And the more who kneel, the less outrageous it will be, the more numb to it people will become, and the more hardened and closed minded some people will be to the real subject of the protest on the basis of the tactic alone.  For many, it gives them an excuse to deflect the real point.  Racial justice and equality will require a collective effort across many segments of society.  My view is that the ball is moved further, faster and in a more sustainable manner with more collective action, more buy in across those many segments and more respect for each other.  Is kneeling accomplishing anything productive?  Is shaming Drew Brees accomplishing anything productive?  What made a difference in the last two weeks was not Kaepernick or Rapinoe or looting or burning buildings or public contrition from celebrities.  What made a difference was the revulsion at seeing George Floyd die as he did and the utter indifference to his life on the face of Chauvin.  Kaepernick's socks are a distraction, not a message - at least to those people who do not already agree with him, and isn't it those other people whose minds need to open and change in order to effect the desired outcomes?  Otherwise, why would protest be necessary?    

I doubt that the America of today is the America that Sgt. Carney was fighting to achieve.  The America of his day surely wasn't.  But the America he hoped for, well, that's different.  That's remarkable.  That's aspirational.  That is something I wish all of us would hope for and treat with respect.  I suppose it comes down to whether people see the flag is a symbol of what America has been or is today as an end product or whether they see it as a symbol of a set of ideas that we should continue to work to achieve.  I understand that the lived experience of many causes them to feel differently about the flag than I do.  It doesn't make them dumbasses in my mind.  It just means I see it differently.  I am not sure why it should make me a dumbass or a racist in theirs.  My view of America doesn't give me license to take its ideals for granted or to be indifferent if other people do not have the opportunity to live under it with the same safety and opportunity that I do.  Making that better in the ways that I can is my responsibility and an obligation to my view of what the flag represents.  America isn't perfect, but I still love it, would die protecting it and, most importantly, hope for and believe in its future.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I notice he generally pipes in with his racist/sexist blasting comments and most people do not even acknowledge him  because he is so extreme on every level.  I have been perplexed why he inserts himself on soccer chats since no one gives him the attention he is looking for except now.   I believe he tries to get attention so with people like him, you need to just ignore him.  It doesn't appear he has any child in soccer and he should go to the other non soccer boards.  Considering the fact he inserted hate speech in his comment above, Dominic should ban him.


Hate speech?
You mean like calling someone that you have never met or talked to a racist?
It is still a free country no matter what you libs think about the constitution.
If they can protest why can’t I?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> By the way Dominic...I love the ignore feature!!!!


So does your husband.


----------



## 310soccer (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Please find a racist post of mine.
> 
> I say call Obama a Kenyan, racist?
> I say send illegals back, racist?
> ...


Can't wait for your daughter to date either a Kenyan, Muslim towel head, Chinese or an Illegal. What beautiful babies she will have. What will be your reaction then?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 14, 2020)

310soccer said:


> Can't wait for your daughter to date either a Kenyan, Muslim towel head, Chinese or an Illegal. What beautiful babies she will have. What will be your reaction then?


I taught her better than to bring home an illegal, communist or a radical Muslim. I am cool with Africans though,


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 14, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I taught her better than to bring home an illegal, communist or a radical Muslim. I am cool with Africans though,


I seriously doubt you would be OK with your daughter bringing home a Latino, Black, Asian or Muslim.


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 14, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I seriously doubt you would be OK with your daughter bringing home a Latino, Black, Asian or Muslim.





Sheriff Joe said:


> I taught her better than to bring home an illegal, communist or a radical Muslim. I am cool with Africans though,


You forgot to mention Chinese!


----------



## Zen (Jun 14, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I notice he generally pipes in with his racist/sexist blasting comments and most people do not even acknowledge him  because he is so extreme on every level.  I have been perplexed why he inserts himself on soccer chats since no one gives him the attention he is looking for except now.   I believe he tries to get attention so with people like him, you need to just ignore him.  It doesn't appear he has any child in soccer and he should go to the other non soccer boards.  Considering the fact he inserted hate speech in his comment above, Dominic should ban him.


Clearly he’s after validation, which maybe missing from his real life.  This forum is his virtual kingdom, where he can be big, bad, and anonymous.  This is all he has. Let him be a badass in his own mind.  Save your energy.  I agree, ignoring is best.  Maybe one day he’ll realize no one cares and he has no credibility.  

Sad this forum used to be a good source of youth soccer info, now it’s been turned into a toxic, virtual Trump rally.  He’s ruined every thread with his toxicity and propaganda.  If this continues to be the tone of all threads, I don’t think I’ll be the only one abandoning the thread.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I seriously doubt you would be OK with your daughter bringing home a Latino, Black, Asian or Muslim.


She is Asian you dumb fuck.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> You forgot to mention Chinese!


That’s the communist.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

Zen said:


> Clearly he’s after validation, which maybe missing from his real life.  This forum is his virtual kingdom, where he can be big, bad, and anonymous.  This is all he has. Let him be a badass in his own mind.  Save your energy.  I agree, ignoring is best.  Maybe one day he’ll realize no one cares and he has no credibility.
> 
> Sad this forum used to be a good source of youth soccer info, now it’s been turned into a toxic, virtual Trump rally.  He’s ruined every thread with his toxicity and propaganda.  If this continues to be the tone of all threads, I don’t think I’ll be the only one abandoning the thread.


Bye


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## Ellejustus (Jun 15, 2020)

Zen said:


> Clearly he’s after validation, which maybe missing from his real life.  This forum is his virtual kingdom, where he can be big, bad, and anonymous.  This is all he has. Let him be a badass in his own mind.  Save your energy.  I agree, ignoring is best.  Maybe one day he’ll realize no one cares and he has no credibility.
> 
> Sad this forum used to be a good source of youth soccer info, *now it’s been turned into a toxic, virtual Trump rally.*  He’s ruined every thread with his toxicity and propaganda.  If this continues to be the tone of all threads, I don’t think I’ll be the only one abandoning the thread.


I'm a 7 year Socalsoccer member.  Zen, sad you just brought t and politics in the forum and now you will get an earful.  Thanks a lot and I was hoping soccer would be all we could talk about today.  You have to also admit that this is a place where those on left have their say too, right?  If this was only a t place for his rally's, I would have been gone long ago. The same thing happen to me on Facebook when t won.  I was out of politics until my old pal told everyone on FB in Jan 5th, 2017 if you didn;t vote for his candidate ((Hillary)) or if you didnt vote at all ((me)) you are the cause of the destruction of our Republic. I came on here in July last year and I went off on liars in soccer and some of their Docs and coaches who lie to little girls so they can get a trophy and be #1.  Now the forum is a hot spot for everything politics, both sides are on here and it's not the Russians.  Joe, Outlaw, Espy, Messy and few others have been here a long time.  Politics is a blood sport and has been happening since Cain killed his brother because he was jealous.......


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 15, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> She is Asian you dumb fuck.


Oh, she's the one that started this whole Chinese Virus pandemic and should go back to her country (since that's what Trump supporters like to say).


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Oh, she's the one that started this whole Chinese Virus pandemic and should go back to her country (since that's what Trump supporters like to say).


No, but I would gladly send my Chinese baby momma back, bitch won’t even do the laundry.


----------



## espola (Jun 15, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> No, but I would gladly send my Chinese baby momma back, bitch won’t even do the laundry.


Racist.


----------



## 3thatplay (Jun 15, 2020)

espola said:


> Racist.


Likely more misogynistic. 

Espola, I doubt you do the most laundry at your house.


----------



## espola (Jun 15, 2020)

3thatplay said:


> Likely more misogynistic.
> 
> Espola, I doubt you do the most laundry at your house.


I do all mine, my wife does all hers.  We share the towels depending on who has a load of white clothes ready.

(And between midnight and 6AM)


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 15, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> No, but I would gladly send my Chinese baby momma back, bitch won’t even do the laundry.


Misogynism plus racism...sounds like a wonderful environment for a young mixed race lady to grow up in.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Misogynism plus racism...sounds like a wonderful environment for a young mixed race lady to grow up in.


She knows she’s a chinaman.
You leftists have lost your sense of humor since 11/8/2016.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 15, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> She knows she’s a chinaman.
> You leftists have lost your sense of humor since 11/8/2016.


Again, racist.  And you forgot I’m a Republican.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 15, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Again, racist.  And you forgot I’m a Republican.


Did you vote for Trump?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 15, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Did you vote for Trump?


Hell no.  Any self respecting Republican w half a brain knows he is a disaster.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Hell no.  Any self respecting Republican w half a brain knows he is a disaster.


So you would rather have Hillary as your President?
Who did you vote for?
That is what it boils down to.


----------



## outside! (Jun 16, 2020)

It will be interesting to see how the 1 year delay for the Tokyo Olympics will change the roster.


----------



## 3thatplay (Jun 16, 2020)

outside! said:


> It will be interesting to see how the 1 year delay for the Tokyo Olympics will change the roster.


YAY...  SOCCER


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 16, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> So you would rather have Hillary as your President?
> Who did you vote for?
> That is what it boils down to.


I'd rather have Romney, Bush (any of em), Ryan, Cruz, McCain, Quayle, Reagan, etc.  It doesn't boil down to Hillary...now it's Joe.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I'd rather have Romney, Bush (any of em), Ryan, Cruz, McCain, Quayle, Reagan, etc.  It doesn't boil down to Hillary...now it's Joe.


Joe isnt a good choice either.  He literally wrote the crime bill that disproportionately imprisoned black americans.  He tried to prevent Vietnamese refuguees from entering the U.S. He stopped busing black students to white school districts because he said he didnt want his white kids growing up  in a racial jungle.  He lied about marching with MLK during the civil rights movement, and back peddled by saying he was with them in spirit after being a lifeguard at an integrated pool.  If Trump lying bothers you, Joe has a longer list throughout his ineffective years in politics.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 16, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Joe isnt a good choice either.  He literally wrote the crime bill that disproportionately imprisoned black americans.  He tried to prevent Vietnamese refuguees from entering the U.S. He stopped busing black students to white school districts because he said he didnt want his white kids growing up  in a racial jungle.  He lied about marching with MLK during the civil rights movement, and back peddled by saying he was with them in spirit after being a lifeguard at an integrated pool.  If Trump lying bothers you, Joe has a longer list throughout his ineffective years in politics.


Still better than Trump.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Still better than Trump.


He can't form a complete sentence.  Now he's going to fix all the shit he couldn't, for nearly 50-years, in office?  Please.  He's part of the problem.

If the democrats can't produce a better candidate than Joe Biden, they need to worry more about their own party than Trump.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I'd rather have Romney, Bush (any of em), Ryan, Cruz, McCain, Quayle, Reagan, etc.  It doesn't boil down to Hillary...now it's Joe.


You would rather have Biden than Trump?


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Still better than Trump.


Better how?  More/Less racist?  Worse/Better temper? More/Less intelligent?  More/Less likely to commit sexual Assault?  At this point its better to look at policies they will push. So if you really are republican, vote the policies not the person.  Because at this point, Creepy Joe "You Aint Black" Biden is a wash when compared to Trump on every level personally.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 16, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Better how?  More/Less racist?  Worse/Better temper? More/Less intelligent?  More/Less likely to commit sexual Assault?  At this point its better to look at policies they will push. So if you really are republican, vote the policies not the person.  Because at this point, Creepy Joe "You Aint Black" Biden is a wash when compared to Trump on every level personally.


What republican would take a name for herself like that?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 16, 2020)

Why anti-Trump people think Trump supporters are stupid:


That when you saw a man who had owned a fraudulent University, intent on scamming poor people, you thought "Fine." (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/04/10/trump-university-settlement-judge-finalized/502387002/)
That when you saw a man who had made it his business practice to stiff his creditors, you said, "Okay." (https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-hotel-paid-millions-in-fines-for-unpaid-work)
That when you heard him proudly brag about his own history of sexual abuse, you said, "No problem." (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/list-trumps-accusers-allegations-sexual-misconduct/story?id=51956410)
That when he made up stories about seeing Muslim-Americans in the thousands cheering the destruction of the World Trade Center, you said, "Not an issue." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/22/donald-trumps-outrageous-claim-that-thousands-of-new-jersey-muslims-celebrated-the-911-attacks/)
That when you saw him brag that he could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't care, you exclaimed, "He sure knows me." (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/23/president-donald-trump-could-shoot-someone-without-prosecution/4073405002/)
That when you heard him relating a story of an elderly guest of his country club, an 80-year old man, who fell off a stage and hit his head, to Trump replied: “‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away. I couldn’t—you know, he was right in front of me, and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him. He was bleeding all over the place. And I felt terrible, because it was a beautiful white marble floor, and now it had changed color. Became very red.” You said, "That's cool!" (https://www.gq.com/story/donald-trump-howard-stern-story)
That when you saw him mock the disabled, you thought it was the funniest thing you ever saw. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-criticized-after-he-appears-mock-reporter-serge-kovaleski-n470016)
That when you heard him brag that he doesn't read books, you said, "Well, who has time?" (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/americas-first-post-text-president/549794/)
That when the Central Park Five were compensated as innocent men convicted of a crime they didn't commit, and he angrily said that they should still be in prison, you said, "That makes sense." (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/06/19/what-trump-has-said-central-park-five/1501321001/)
That when you heard him tell his supporters to beat up protesters and that he would hire attorneys, you thought, "Yes!" (https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-trump-campaign-protests-20160313-story.html)
That when you heard him tell one rally to confiscate a man's coat before throwing him out into the freezing cold, you said, "What a great guy!" (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-orders-protesters-coat-is-confiscated-and-he-is-sent-into-the-cold-a6802756.html)


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 16, 2020)

That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!" (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/why-cant-trump-just-condemn-nazis/567320/)
That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be." (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-insult-foreign-countries-leaders_n_59dd2769e4b0b26332e76d57)
That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!" (https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/12/29/138-trump-policy-changes-2017-000603)
That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!" (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways)
That you have heard him say that it was difficult to help Puerto Rico because it was in the middle of water and you have said, "That makes sense." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/09/26/the-very-big-ocean-between-here-and-puerto-rico-is-not-a-perfect-excuse-for-a-lack-of-aid/)
That you have seen him start fights with every country from Canada to New Zealand while praising Russia and quote, "falling in love" with the dictator of North Korea, and you have said, "That's statesmanship!" (https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics/donald-trump-dictators-kim-jong-un-vladimir-putin/index.html)
That Trump separated children from their families and put them in cages, managed to lose track of 1500 kids, has opened a tent city incarceration camp in the desert in Texas - he explains that they’re just “animals” - and you say, “Well, OK then.” (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/more-5-400-children-split-border-according-new-count-n1071791)
That you have witnessed all the thousand and one other manifestations of corruption and low moral character and outright animalistic rudeness and contempt for you, the working American voter, and you still show up grinning and wearing your MAGA hats and threatening to beat up anybody who says otherwise. (https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/reports/2018/06/04/451570/confronting-cost-trumps-corruption-american-families/)
What you don't get, Trump supporters, is that our succumbing to frustration and shaking our heads, thinking of you as stupid, may very well be wrong and unhelpful, but it's also...hear me...charitable.
Because if you're NOT stupid, we must turn to other explanations, and most of them are less flattering.
- Adam-Troy Castro (copied from Facebook)

BTW, the above is just a partial list...


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!" (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/why-cant-trump-just-condemn-nazis/567320/)
> That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be." (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-insult-foreign-countries-leaders_n_59dd2769e4b0b26332e76d57)
> That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!" (https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/12/29/138-trump-policy-changes-2017-000603)
> That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!" (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways)
> ...


Some of those may be justified and some are taken way out of context.  My list of reasons why Joe Biden is a poor choice is also a partial list on why Anti-Joe Biden people think Joe Biden supporters are stupid. But instead of talking in circles, instead of pointing out all the faults that both candidates obviously have, lets talk policies.  As a republican, What policies do you support for Joe Biden? or are you just voting against a candidate because you don't like the other one as a person?  Policies are what matter.  The last thing we need is a smooth talking candidate to win based on popularity.  Neither is a smooth talking candidate or popular, so the logical thing to do is vote based on policies.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 16, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!" (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/why-cant-trump-just-condemn-nazis/567320/)
> That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be." (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-insult-foreign-countries-leaders_n_59dd2769e4b0b26332e76d57)
> That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!" (https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/12/29/138-trump-policy-changes-2017-000603)
> That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!" (https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways)
> ...


You need a hobby.  95% of that is bullshit.  Separated kids in cages?  LMAO!  Obama put them in cages, too.  You think Trump bought new cages?  Aren't criminals put in cages and separated from their kids?  GTFOH.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 16, 2020)

Nobody wants this mixed up race baiting trouble maker.
Too Funny, 
If someone signs her now it will be an arranged marriage.








						Goodell: Won't someone *please* sign Kaepernick?
					






					hotair.com


----------



## outside! (Jun 17, 2020)

I think Joe Biden despite his age would be a better soccer player than Donald Trump. I don't think the position would matter much in this analysis.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 17, 2020)

outside! said:


> I think Joe Biden despite his age would be a better soccer player than Donald Trump. I don't think the position would matter much in this analysis.


Hahahahaha.  I can;t wait to see the match up in the debates, soccer 1 v 1 and then the big day, Nov 8th, I mean the 3rd.  Good luck to the two candidates and may the best man win.  I promise before all of you whomever the champ is after the election, I will honor & respect the office, as I do for the local governments, county and state.  It's the best way to roll the dice imo.  Or you can you play the either or game and many like that blood sport as we all can read and see the last 90 days.  Two each his own I say.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

outside! said:


> I think Joe Biden despite his age would be a better soccer player than Donald Trump. I don't think the position would matter much in this analysis.


Except Joe would pick the ball up and sniff it.  Perhaps goalkeeper?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 17, 2020)

Trump is an idiot


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Trump is an idiot


Yeah... most powerful man in the country, wealthy and married to a model.  He's got nothing on you.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah... most powerful man in the country, wealthy and married to a model.  He's got nothing on you.


Model?  You meant hooker...right?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Model?  You meant hooker...right?


TIME Magazine says you're wrong.  Let's not pretend you wouldn't hit it.  Black men would fuck a snake if they could catch it.









						The Evolution of Melania Trump: From Model to First Lady
					

TIME looks back at Melania's life in pictures, from Slovenia to Washington




					time.com


----------



## dad4 (Jun 17, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Hahahahaha.  I can;t wait to see the match up in the debates, soccer 1 v 1 and then the big day, Nov 8th, I mean the 3rd.  Good luck to the two candidates and may the best man win.  I promise before all of you whomever the champ is after the election, I will honor & respect the office, as I do for the local governments, county and state.  It's the best way to roll the dice imo.  Or you can you play the either or game and many like that blood sport as we all can read and see the last 90 days.  Two each his own I say.


Not 1v1.  Political football is a team sport, and president‘s division is 2v2.   Biden still gets to pick someone for VP.  He’s planning to pick a woman, and Rapinoe turns 35 this summer- se she’s eligible.  There is no way Trump and Pence would stand a chance versus Biden and Rapinoe on the pitch.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Not 1v1.  Political football is a team sport, and president‘s division is 2v2.   Biden still gets to pick someone for VP.  He’s planning to pick a woman, and Rapinoe turns 35 this summer- se she’s eligible.  There is no way Trump and Pence would stand a chance versus Biden and Rapinoe on the pitch.


Pence has God playing the 10 and Rapinoe would never pass the ball because her first priority is posing for the crowd.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Pence has God playing the 10 and Rapinoe would never pass the ball because her first priority is posing for the crowd.
> 
> View attachment 7723


I appreciate Megan for kicking ass for America and bringing home the World Cup.  Without her, we lose.  TY Megan


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I appreciate Megan for kicking ass for America and bringing home the World Cup.  Without her, we lose.  TY Megan


Not necessarily, Spicoli.  I appreciate her as a player, and what she did for the program, but she turned into a selfish douche bag the last 2 years.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> TIME Magazine says you're wrong.  Let's not pretend you wouldn't hit it.  Black men would fuck a snake if they could catch it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m good.  But let your president know that you can’t turn a ho into a housewife.  He’s a rest haven for broke uneducated hookers trying to climb the social ladder.

You like kissing hookers in the mouth @outlaw?  Are you a rest haven for ho’s too?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m good.  But let your president know that you can’t turn a ho into a housewife.  He’s a rest haven for broke uneducated hookers trying to climb the social ladder.


Sorry you had to read outlaw’s trash.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

outside! said:


> I think Joe Biden despite his age would be a better soccer player than Donald Trump. I don't think the position would matter much in this analysis.


Whole new meaning to the word flopper.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Trump is an idiot


How did you people let this buffoon beat you?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m good.  But let your president know that you can’t turn a ho into a housewife.  He’s a rest haven for broke uneducated hookers trying to climb the social ladder.
> 
> You like kissing hookers in the mouth @outlaw?  Are you a rest haven for ho’s too?
> View attachment 7725


At least she isn’t Hillary.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sorry you had to read outlaw’s trash.


I guess you aren’t sorry for those who read DrDre’s trash.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m good.  But let your president know that you can’t turn a ho into a housewife.  He’s a rest haven for broke uneducated hookers trying to climb the social ladder.
> 
> You like kissing hookers in the mouth @outlaw?  Are you a rest haven for ho’s too?
> View attachment 7725


When did taking pictures like this make you a hooker?  Was Vanessa Williams a hooker, too?  And speaking of opening your legs to climb the ladder...


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sorry you had to read outlaw’s trash.


Hit too close to home for you?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I guess you aren’t sorry for those who read DrDre’s trash.


I’m a Mac not a doctor.  You’re getting your Dre’s mixed up patna.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m a Mac not a doctor.  You’re getting your Dre’s mixed up patna.


No offense, I like Dr Dre.
West Coast


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> When did taking pictures like this make you a hooker?  Was Vanessa Williams a hooker, too?  And speaking of opening your legs to climb the ladder...
> 
> View attachment 7731


Willie Brown is a Mac and has been an excellent role model.  Senator Harris briefly fell for the Mac.  She’s not a poor uneducated hooker trying to climb the social ladder.  Rather she is a proud Alumnae of Hastings which had the best law faculty when she attended (The Hastings 65 club).  She liked slick Willie because he’s a Mac not because she was screaming her way to the top.  Hastings grads have a plethora of options.  This situation is distinguishable.  Trump ain’t a Mac and his wife is an uneducated hooker.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Willie Brown is a Mac and has been an excellent role model.  Senator Harris briefly fell for the Mac.  She’s not a poor uneducated hooker trying to climb the social ladder.  Rather she is a proud Alumnae of Hastings which had the best law faculty when she attended (The Hastings 65 club).  She liked slick Willie because he’s a Mac not because she was screaming her way to the top.  Hastings grads have a plethora of options.  This situation is distinguishable.  Trump ain’t a Mac and his wife is an uneducated hooker.


No, I wouldn't say a married man fucking someone on the side is a "role model".  Heels Up was an adulterer that fucked her boss to elevate her career.  Look at him.  She's a whore... and an unattractive one, too.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Willie Brown is a Mac and has been an excellent role model.  Senator Harris briefly fell for the Mac.  She’s not a poor uneducated hooker trying to climb the social ladder.  Rather she is a proud Alumnae of Hastings which had the best law faculty when she attended (The Hastings 65 club).  She liked slick Willie because he’s a Mac not because she was screaming her way to the top.  Hastings grads have a plethora of options.  This situation is distinguishable.  Trump ain’t a Mac and his wife is an uneducated hooker.


In addition, Dre, "role models" don't finance their multiple mistresses and illegitimate children with money that doesn't belong to them.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

Fuc


The Outlaw said:


> No, I wouldn't say a married man fucking someone on the side is a "role model".  Heels Up was an adulterer that fucked her boss to elevate her career.  Look at him.  She's a whore... and an unattractive one, too.


Fuck outlaw you are hurting my feelings.  You are intentionally bombing my house.  I have a personal relationship with these people.  Do you know Trump and his wife?  Why are you attacking my Hastings family?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> In addition, Dre, "role models" don't finance their multiple mistresses and illegitimate children with money that doesn't belong to them.


Willie B is not perfect.  However, he’s like a father figure to me.  He has always been honest with me about his shortcomings and has encouraged me to be a better man.  I will forever be grateful to Willie B, Celeste Rose, and my conservative WHITE mentors at UCD that believed in me when I didn’t believe in myself.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Fuc
> 
> Fuck outlaw you are hurting my feelings.  You are intentionally bombing my house.  I have a personal relationship with these people.  Do you know Trump and his wife?  Why are you attacking my Hastings family?


You're the one promoting them.  You called them role models.  You don't see me calling Trump and his wife role models.  None of them are.  And I'm not attacking Hastings... I'm well aware of the reputation.  That said, you tell me what I posted that is incorrect.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

I


The Outlaw said:


> You're the one promoting them.  You called them role models.  You don't see me calling Trump and his wife role models.  None of them are.  And I'm not attacking Hastings... I'm well aware of the reputation.  That said, you tell me what I posted that is incorrect.


I never mentioned my connection to slick Willie.  I have also never promoted Senator Harris or her politics.  I just mentioned that I was recruited by Russ, Mark, & Kamala to work at the Alameda county DA’s office in response to you implying that I’m anti law enforcement.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I never mentioned my connection to slick Willie.  I have also never promoted Senator Harris or her politics.  I just mentioned that I was recruited by Russ, Mark, & Kamala to work at the Alameda county DA’s office in response to you implying that I’m anti law enforcement.


You remember this comment, counselor?  You made it 15 minutes ago.

"Willie Brown is a Mac and has been an excellent role model. Senator Harris briefly fell for the Mac. She’s not a poor uneducated hooker trying to climb the social ladder."

He is not a role model.  And she IS a hooker.  Furthermore, she's known in the black community as someone that went above and beyond to incarcerate black people.  I would think you, of all people, would know that's the perception of her.  

If you're not anti law enforcement, then you tell me why cops are continually getting the blame for black criminals that resist arrest.  How is Alton Sterling a victim?  How is Eric Garner a victim?  How is Rayshard Brooks a victim?  All of them died because of their continued actions of breaking the law and disregarding police officers that tried to calmly, and respectfully, arrest them until they refused to comply.  Furthermore, please explain to me why someone like BLM has zero regard for innocent black people murdered by other blacks.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 17, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I guess you aren’t sorry for those who read DrDre’s trash.


Nope. 

Dre is a reasonable man with whom I sometimes agree, and sometimes disagree.   Those are the conversations you learn from.

Outlaw and Sheriff Joe seem to come here just to piss people off, and you two frequently go way too far.  Those are the posts you regret wasting time on.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Dre is a reasonable man with whom I sometimes agree, and sometimes disagree.   Those are the conversations you learn from.
> 
> Outlaw and Sheriff Joe seem to come here just to piss people off, and you two frequently go way too far.  Those are the posts you regret wasting time on.


If the facts piss you off, so be it.  This politically correct bullshit makes nothing better.  I challenge you to show me what I've posted that is factually inaccurate.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 17, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You remember this comment, counselor?  You made it 15 minutes ago.
> 
> "Willie Brown is a Mac and has been an excellent role model. Senator Harris briefly fell for the Mac. She’s not a poor uneducated hooker trying to climb the social ladder."
> 
> ...


Some of what you say is true.  In fact, I refused to work for the Alameda county’s DA office for some of the reasons that you’ve stated.  Russ ran the show and tried most of the cases.  This is why he followed Kamala to The city and county of SF.  Russ tries the cases & Kamala politics.  However, I like Russ and I don’t think he’s a racist.  Most folks don’t understand he’s the trial guy.  They also don’t know about the diversion programs that Russ ran with guys like me and the several state and federal judges.  
Counselor?  I’m just a soccer dad dude.  I don’t want to be in the limelight, I just want to hang out with my kid.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Dre is a reasonable man with whom I sometimes agree, and sometimes disagree.   Those are the conversations you learn from.
> 
> Outlaw and Sheriff Joe seem to come here just to piss people off, and you two frequently go way too far.  Those are the posts you regret wasting time on.


You sound reasonable at times but then you go off your meds, like now.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)




----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)




----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)




----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

She can stay.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Willie B is not perfect.  However, he’s like a father figure to me.  He has always been honest with me about his shortcomings and has encouraged me to be a better man.  I will forever be grateful to Willie B, Celeste Rose, and my conservative WHITE mentors at UCD that believed in me when I didn’t believe in myself.


All well and good... but you're describing a mentor, not a role model.  Neither of them are role models.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Some of what you say is true.  In fact, I refused to work for the Alameda county’s DA office for some of the reasons that you’ve stated.  Russ ran the show and tried most of the cases.  This is why he followed Kamala to The city and county of SF.  Russ tries the cases & Kamala politics.  However, I like Russ and I don’t think he’s a racist.  Most folks don’t understand he’s the trial guy.  They also don’t know about the diversion programs that Russ ran with guys like me and the several state and federal judges.
> Counselor?  I’m just a soccer dad dude.  I don’t want to be in the limelight, I just want to hang out with my kid.


We can disagree and give each other shit... but you're articulate and I don't think I've ever personally disrespected you.  Nor have you ever disrespected me.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I appreciate Megan for kicking ass for America and bringing home the World Cup.  Without her, we lose.  TY Megan


No we would not lose without she/he.


----------



## chiefs (Jun 17, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I appreciate Megan for kicking ass for America and bringing home the World Cup.  Without her, we lose.  TY Megan


No true. Her work rate was atrocious. Other women were covering her... a 2nd US team would’ve rolled the Dutch.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 17, 2020)

chiefs said:


> No true. Her work rate was atrocious. Other women were covering her... a 2nd US team would’ve rolled the Dutch.


I have no clue on the 2nd team but I hear any 2nd team of any YNT or WNT could beat the top team.  My point I was saying she made her PKs when they counted and she was money.


----------



## paytoplay (Jun 17, 2020)

chiefs said:


> No true. Her work rate was atrocious. Other women were covering her... a 2nd US team would’ve rolled the Dutch.


Chiefs gtfo of a soccer forum, dunce. Rapinoe age 35 and won every major award last year.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 17, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> How did you people let this buffoon beat you?


Cause Trump supporters are idiots.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 17, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Cause Trump supporters are idiots.


So you can relate, huh?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 18, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m good.  But let your president know that you can’t turn a ho into a housewife.  He’s a rest haven for broke uneducated hookers trying to climb the social ladder.
> 
> You like kissing hookers in the mouth @outlaw?  Are you a rest haven for ho’s too?
> View attachment 7725


Good morning @outlaw.  You went all personal yesterday and got me into my feelings.  But I answered all of your questions.  Homie, I almost didn’t realize that you didn’t answer my questions.  So, I’ll repost the questions.
1). Do you like or approve of kissing hookers in the mouth?
2). How many people do you think partied in her mouth before the president kissed her in the mouth?
3). Do agree with being a rest haven for ho’s; Ebonically speaking, I could ask what do you think about Captain-Save-A-Ho’s?

Oh yeah, I’ll start the day off by dedicating a rap song to ya pal!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 18, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Good morning @outlaw.  You went all personal yesterday and got me into my feelings.  But I answered all of your questions.  Homie, I almost didn’t realize that you didn’t answer my questions.  So, I’ll repost the questions.
> 1). Do you like or approve of kissing hookers in the mouth?
> 2). How many people do you think partied in her mouth before the president kissed her in the mouth?
> 3). Do agree with being a rest haven for ho’s; Ebonically speaking, I could ask what do you think about Captain-Save-A-Ho’s?
> ...


Yikes, reminds me of all the times a kissed your momma on the mouth.
Maybe I should get checked.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 18, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Good morning @outlaw.  You went all personal yesterday and got me into my feelings.  But I answered all of your questions.  Homie, I almost didn’t realize that you didn’t answer my questions.  So, I’ll repost the questions.
> 1). Do you like or approve of kissing hookers in the mouth?
> 2). How many people do you think partied in her mouth before the president kissed her in the mouth?
> 3). Do agree with being a rest haven for ho’s; Ebonically speaking, I could ask what do you think about Captain-Save-A-Ho’s?
> ...


1.  I don't tell a paying customer what he can or can't do with his merchandise.
2.  7
3.  Ebonically speaking, Cardi B and Nick Minaj are the best black folks can offer.  Even Lizzo feels the need to twerk in a thong.  

Lil' John is another, fine representative of black talent.  So many "Lil" folks in the game.  Not sure if it represents talent level, IQ or arrest records.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 18, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Yikes, reminds me of all the times a kissed your momma on the mouth.
> Maybe I should get checked.


Nasty!


----------



## MacDre (Jun 18, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> 1.  I don't tell a paying customer what he can or can't do with his merchandise.
> 2.  7
> 3.  Ebonically speaking, Cardi B and Nick Minaj are the best black folks can offer.  Even Lizzo feels the need to twerk in a thong.
> 
> Lil' John is another, fine representative of black talent.  So many "Lil" folks in the game.  Not sure if it represents talent level, IQ or arrest records.


Dude, change your avatar to Sammy Davis Jr. because you keep tap dancing around the issues.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 18, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Dude, change your avatar to Sammy Davis Jr. because you keep tap dancing around the issues.


What issues?  I answered your questions.  And stop stealing MY material.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 18, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> So you can relate, huh?


Trump is an idiot


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 18, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Trump is an idiot


Did your mom drop you?
Twice?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 18, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Did your mom drop you?
> Twice?


Trump is an idiot


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 19, 2020)

There is no longer any doubt: The left cares nothing about character
					






					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> There is no longer any doubt: The left cares nothing about character
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good Morning Sheriff.  I would like to apologize for myself and my fellow libtards for doubting President Trump when he said he was going to make America great again.

I want to go public to say that I think Trump has made America much better for Black Lives Matters, the LGBTQ ️‍ community, and those that are here under DACA.

You think you could help me with a Black Lives Matters for Trump campaign?  I think it’s important for us libtards to acknowledge how President Trump has advanced social issues during his presidency despite being hella dumb and a TRICK.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> 1.  I don't tell a paying customer what he can or can't do with his merchandise.
> 2.  7
> 3.  Ebonically speaking, Cardi B and Nick Minaj are the best black folks can offer.  Even Lizzo feels the need to twerk in a thong.
> 
> Lil' John is another, fine representative of black talent.  So many "Lil" folks in the game.  Not sure if it represents talent level, IQ or arrest records.


I’m starting to think you listen to more rap than me


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m starting to think you listen to more rap than me


Thoughts on the George Washington statue in Portland being wrapped in an America flag that was then set on fire last night, with the statue then being pulled down and covered in graffiti?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I’m starting to think you listen to more rap than me


Babbling into a microphone, when you likely didn't finish high school, is not my idea of talent.  It's the same old babbling bullshit over and over again, Dre.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Good Morning Sheriff.  I would like to apologize for myself and my fellow libtards for doubting President Trump when he said he was going to make America great again.
> 
> I want to go public to say that I think Trump has made America much better for Black Lives Matters, the LGBTQ ️‍ community, and those that are here under DACA.
> 
> You think you could help me with a Black Lives Matters for Trump campaign?  I think it’s important for us libtards to acknowledge how President Trump has advanced social issues during his presidency despite being hella dumb and a TRICK.


Liberals haven't been able to get over losing 2016, Dre.  And so you aren't surprised by it, America knows BLM is a phony, violent organization that only cares about blaming white people and cops.  BLM doesn't care about black lives.  If it did, it wouldn't promote violent, black criminals as victims.  It would put an emphasis on the deaths of actual "innocent" black people.  Even the 90% of those killed by other black people.  Pretending like black lives matter to black people won't be enough, even aided by a pandemic, to beat Trump in November.

Those here under DACA are here under a false pretense.  Just like BLM, they are glorifying illegal behavior.  So what you're saying is you clearly support breaking the law.  To Hell with those doing it the right way; waiting in line.  Let's promote more criminal behavior!

I wonder if an educated man, like yourself, has considered the ramifications of the long term damage.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Thoughts on the George Washington statue in Portland being wrapped in an America flag that was then set on fire last night, with the statue then being pulled down and covered in graffiti?


Portland is the land of libtards.  It will soon be San Francisco 2.0 and die from a lack of tourism.  They're just too stupid to see it coming.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Good Morning Sheriff.  I would like to apologize for myself and my fellow libtards for doubting President Trump when he said he was going to make America great again.
> 
> I want to go public to say that I think Trump has made America much better for Black Lives Matters, the LGBTQ ️‍ community, and those that are here under DACA.
> 
> You think you could help me with a Black Lives Matters for Trump campaign?  I think it’s important for us libtards to acknowledge how President Trump has advanced social issues during his presidency despite being hella dumb and a TRICK.


After all, what do you have to lose?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Babbling into a microphone, when you likely didn't finish high school, is not my idea of talent.  It's the same old babbling bullshit over and over again, Dre.


Professional rapper=lucrative career
College soccer=waste of time.  I guess different strokes for different folks.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Professional rapper=lucrative career
> College soccer=waste of time.  I guess different strokes for different folks.


Rapping has been lucrative for a handful... at least until you're murdered for your gang ties.  By the way, how many rappers aren't former drug dealers?

College soccer isn't a waste of time if it opens doors you wouldn't have seen without it and a collegiate athlete gets perks others don't.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Professional rapper=lucrative career
> College soccer=waste of time.  I guess different strokes for different folks.


Professional rapper = pipe dream that distracts kids from getting good grades in school.
Professional soccer player = pipe dream that distracts kids from getting good grades in school.

How are the two different, again?  ( Other than that the rapper thinks a hat trick is something done by a ho with a sense for fashion. )


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Portland is the land of libtards.  It will soon be San Francisco 2.0 and die from a lack of tourism.  They're just too stupid to see it coming.


"die from lack of tourism"?






						Business Oregon | Oregon's Target Industries
					






					www.oregon4biz.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

N


The Outlaw said:


> Rapping has been lucrative for a handful... at least until you're murdered for your gang ties.  By the way, how many rappers aren't former drug dealers?
> 
> College soccer isn't a waste of time if it opens doors you wouldn't have seen without it and a collegiate athlete gets perks others don't.


Not many.  Do you realize how hard it is to get a solid drug connection?  One of these days I’ll have the black on black crime debate with you and win but I want to give you more time to prepare your weak ass superficial analysis.  It would be too easy to win and I like a challenge.  Eat right and study hard and when you’re ready we’ll have the debate.  But seriously, if you do the work the issue will resolve itself and you will be enlightened.  I think the true facts will be much more palatable to you if you discover them yourself as opposed to social justice advocate schooling you on a public forum.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Liberals haven't been able to get over losing 2016, Dre.  And so you aren't surprised by it, America knows BLM is a phony, violent organization that only cares about blaming white people and cops.  BLM doesn't care about black lives.  If it did, it wouldn't promote violent, black criminals as victims.  It would put an emphasis on the deaths of actual "innocent" black people.  Even the 90% of those killed by other black people.  Pretending like black lives matter to black people won't be enough, even aided by a pandemic, to beat Trump in November.
> 
> Those here under DACA are here under a false pretense.  Just like BLM, they are glorifying illegal behavior.  So what you're saying is you clearly support breaking the law.  To Hell with those doing it the right way; waiting in line.  Let's promote more criminal behavior!
> 
> I wonder if an educated man, like yourself, has considered the ramifications of the long term damage.


The highest court in the land seems to disagree.  In our system of jurisprudence legislators draft statues and courts interpret them.  So, you need to look to caselaw to determine what the law is.  Yesterday the highest court opined on some very important issues and established clear legal precedent.

Do you not acknowledge the separation of powers?  Do you think we should have a dictator?  What legal precedent has been violated in your opinion?

I have also considered the long term ramifications.  I’m am actually an evolution of my families philosophy.  Last year before my uncle died, he told me that he thought the anti-immigration stance that he and Chavez took during their advocacy was wrong.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

espola said:


> "die from lack of tourism"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what I said.  Portland has the same things every other city has... except the ability to pump your own gas and deodorant.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> N
> 
> Not many.  Do you realize how hard it is to get a solid drug connection?  One of these days I’ll have the black on black crime debate with you and win but I want to give you more time to prepare your weak ass superficial analysis.  It would be too easy to win and I like a challenge.  Eat right and study hard and when you’re ready we’ll have the debate.  But seriously, if you do the work the issue will resolve itself and you will be enlightened.  I think the true facts will be much more palatable to you if you discover them yourself as opposed to social justice advocate schooling you on a public forum.


Black on black crime debate?  What is there to debate?  We both know it's rampant and black folks refuse to blame themselves for it.  You'll blame some cloaked government agency parachuting drugs into ghettos back in 19-whatever and I'll remind you it's no longer 19-whatever.  Then I'll tell you black lives only matter to blacks if there's money or sympathy to be gained and you'll tell me black people are ALWAYS coming down on their own for the violence.  I'll ask you for examples and you'll say they don't make the news.  Then I'll remind you black people don't cooperate with police and you'll tell me black on black murders get solved... blah blah blah.

I don't have the tolerance for bullshit and never will.  I've never seen an entire race of wound licking victims.  If you want social justice, tell your people to steal a mirror the next time they're out getting profiled for stealing while they're shoplifting.  That's a fresh and wonderful place to start.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> N
> 
> Not many.  Do you realize how hard it is to get a solid drug connection?  One of these days I’ll have the black on black crime debate with you and win but I want to give you more time to prepare your weak ass superficial analysis.  It would be too easy to win and I like a challenge.  Eat right and study hard and when you’re ready we’ll have the debate.  But seriously, if you do the work the issue will resolve itself and you will be enlightened.  I think the true facts will be much more palatable to you if you discover them yourself as opposed to social justice advocate schooling you on a public forum.


Within the last month, you’ve advocated non-cooperation with law enforcement and asked for more law and order for black communities.  So, the cops should arrest the criminals but no one should provide evidence?  

I’m not sure you’re winning a debate on black on black crime any time soon.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Thoughts on the George Washington statue in Portland being wrapped in an America flag that was then set on fire last night, with the statue then being pulled down and covered in graffiti?


In general, I think it’s good.  I have mentioned before that I send my kid to an International school at great personal expense because I want her to have a culturally and socially relevant education.  A huge problem in the US has been the promotion of “great white men” to the exclusion of everyone else.

As a child, I remember visiting Mt Vernon on a field trip and thinking why would the guy who never promised to lie was a slave owner with illegitimate mixed kids.  I don’t think someone that supported the institution of slavery should be honored.
Do you think former slave owners should be promoted as heroes to our youth?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The highest court in the land seems to disagree.  In our system of jurisprudence legislators draft statues and courts interpret them.  So, you need to look to caselaw to determine what the law is.  Yesterday the highest court opined on some very important issues and established clear legal precedent.
> 
> Do you not acknowledge the separation of powers?  Do you think we should have a dictator?  What legal precedent has been violated in your opinion?
> 
> I have also considered the long term ramifications.  I’m am actually an evolution of my families philosophy.  Last year before my uncle died, he told me that he thought the anti-immigration stance that he and Chavez took during their advocacy was wrong.


Obama forced his bullshit healthcare mandate on us... what do you call that... besides "dictator"?  We don't have a dictator.  We have a duly elected President that received half of the votes in this country.  HALF.  And since the day he took office, the libtard party has done nothing but try to unseat him for an infinite number of bullshit reasons and don't next to NOTHING for the American taxpayers that pay their salaries.  We have people that haven't received an unemployment check in this state after being out of work for 3 months.  We have people that haven't received the 1 stimulus check that's been issued in 3 months.  What the fuck are they doing besides eating the corn out of Trump's shit?  

Our system is full of bullshit laws that do nothing more than keep bullshit legislators employed.  Just like the incredible amount of ambulance chasers in your profession.  Making a living by keeping their hands in the pockets of hard working citizens.  As for DACA, if you think George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks are victims, there's no way you'll see anything wrong with anchor babies.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Black on black crime debate?  What is there to debate?  We both know it's rampant and black folks refuse to blame themselves for it.  You'll blame some cloaked government agency parachuting drugs into ghettos back in 19-whatever and I'll remind you it's no longer 19-whatever.  Then I'll tell you black lives only matter to blacks if there's money or sympathy to be gained and you'll tell me black people are ALWAYS coming down on their own for the violence.  I'll ask you for examples and you'll say they don't make the news.  Then I'll remind you black people don't cooperate with police and you'll tell me black on black murders get solved... blah blah blah.
> 
> I don't have the tolerance for bullshit and never will.  I've never seen an entire race of wound licking victims.  If you want social justice, tell your people to steal a mirror the next time they're out getting profiled for stealing while they're shoplifting.  That's a fresh and wonderful place to start.


When you say my people, are you referring to my black family or my pasty white family.  Why won’t you acknowledge the white in me outlaw?  I’m of English, Scottish, and African descent...why do you only see the African?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> In general, I think it’s good.  I have mentioned before that I send my kid to an International school at great personal expense because I want her to have a culturally and socially relevant education.  A huge problem in the US has been the promotion of “great white men” to the exclusion of everyone else.
> 
> As a child, I remember visiting Mt Vernon on a field trip and thinking why would the guy who never promised to lie was a slave owner with illegitimate mixed kids.  I don’t think someone that supported the institution of slavery should be honored.
> Do you think former slave owners should be promoted as heroes to our youth?


Why not?  Black Lives Matter loves to make heroes out of violent, career criminals that died while resisting arrest.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> When you say my people, are you referring to my black family or my pasty white family.  Why won’t you acknowledge the white in me outlaw?  I’m of English, Scottish, and African descent...why do you only see the African?


Why won't black people acknowledge the white in Colin Kaepernick and Barack Obama?  Why do THEY only see the African?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 19, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Professional rapper = pipe dream that distracts kids from getting good grades in school.
> Professional soccer player = pipe dream that distracts kids from getting good grades in school.
> 
> How are the two different, again?  ( Other than that the rapper thinks a hat trick is something done by a ho with a sense for fashion. )


Interesting takes.  That was pre corona and protests.  Now, we have a whole new world coming soon.  Pipe dream is an interesting choices of words. 
Professional Rapper= Art and one's expression of deep, deep emotion from life and heart felt.  If you make sense to the youth, they buy it.  My dd loves rap.  Go rap!!!
Professional Soccer Player= It will be looking very nice for top top players of any age that want to play pro soccer by year 2022 is my prediction.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Obama forced his bullshit healthcare mandate on us... what do you call that... besides "dictator"?  We don't have a dictator.  We have a duly elected President that received half of the votes in this country.  HALF.  And since the day he took office, the libtard party has done nothing but try to unseat him for an infinite number of bullshit reasons and don't next to NOTHING for the American taxpayers that pay their salaries.  We have people that haven't received an unemployment check in this state after being out of work for 3 months.  We have people that haven't received the 1 stimulus check that's been issued in 3 months.  What the fuck are they doing besides eating the corn out of Trump's shit?
> 
> Our system is full of bullshit laws that do nothing more than keep bullshit legislators employed.  Just like the incredible amount of ambulance chasers in your profession.  Making a living by keeping their hands in the pockets of hard working citizens.  As for DACA, if you think George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks are victims, there's no way you'll see anything wrong with anchor babies.


Okay, so does this mean you’ll support my Black Lives Matters for Trump campaign?  Trump is giving us change we can believe in and he’s making America great again.  I think you’re turning me conservative outlaw.  If Trump can change parties, so can I...right?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

I love this piece of shit.  Talks about how it's great a cop steps up and says "this is wrong".  When are black people going to stop blaming everyone else and say that Rayshard Brooks was wrong?  That beating his wife and kids was wrong?  That driving drunk, punching a cop and shooting a taser at him was wrong?  Fucking disgrace.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Okay, so does this mean you’ll support my Black Lives Matters for Trump campaign?  Trump is giving us change we can believe in and he’s making America great again.  I think you’re turning me conservative outlaw.  If Trump can change parties, so can I...right?


Black Lives Matter is a bullshit, terrorist organization and Trump knows it.  Trump sees that all of these police interactions happened because a black criminal refused to follow the law and respect law enforcement.  All of them.  America sees it too.  So enjoy the temporary pandering.  You know it's all bullshit.  The statues... taking COPS off the air because it shows too much reality... the confederate flag... street names... Ashton Cutcher crying and the "I'm sorry" video from B-list celebrities that need black people to keep watching their movies.  Pandering.  

By the way, I'm not conservative... I call 'bullshit' when I see it.  And blaming everyone but yourselves, for your behavior, is bullshit.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Why won't black people acknowledge the white in Colin Kaepernick and Barack Obama?  Why do THEY only see the African?


Now you are stealing my shit.  I’ve always said Obama was more white than black.  Yeah, he’s mixed raced but culturally white because he was raised by his white family.  But as you know, the one drop rule is in full effect and Obama and I could never be accepted in the white race with tainted blood.  So, I guess we are black.  Carry on.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> In general, I think it’s good.  I have mentioned before that I send my kid to an International school at great personal expense because I want her to have a culturally and socially relevant education.  A huge problem in the US has been the promotion of “great white men” to the exclusion of everyone else.
> 
> As a child, I remember visiting Mt Vernon on a field trip and thinking why would the guy who never promised to lie was a slave owner with illegitimate mixed kids.  I don’t think someone that supported the institution of slavery should be honored.
> Do you think former slave owners should be promoted as heroes to our youth?


How do you have heroes if you get rid of all the flawed ones?  Luther?  anti-semite.  Washington?  slave owner.  King?  adulterer.  We’d have no one left.

All you can do is pick the best ones and teach them with their flaws.  Honor the noble actions and honestly discuss the dishonorable actions.  Raise new heroes as you recognize people whose actions you can honor, but don’t expect them to have been perfect either.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Now you are stealing my shit.  I’ve always said Obama was more white than black.  Yeah, he’s mixed raced but culturally white because he was raised by his white family.  But as you know, the one drop rule is in full effect and Obama and I could never be accepted in the white race with tainted blood.  So, I guess we are black.  Carry on.


White people aren't the ones calling you "coon", are they?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I love this piece of shit.  Talks about how it's great a cop steps up and says "this is wrong".  When are black people going to stop blaming everyone else and say that Rayshard Brooks was wrong?  That beating his wife and kids was wrong?  That driving drunk, punching a cop and shooting a taser at him was wrong?  Fucking disgrace.


Outlaw, you are starting to make white folks look bad!  I will admit Brooks isn’t a likable character.
Can you admit that none of the offenses you listed warrants the death penalty?  Jail, fines, probation, mandatory counseling...death is excessive and unwarranted.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

dad4 said:


> How do you have heroes if you get rid of all the flawed ones?  Luther?  anti-semite.  Washington?  slave owner.  King?  adulterer.  We’d have no one left.
> 
> All you can do is pick the best ones and teach them with their flaws.  Honor the noble actions and honestly discuss the dishonorable actions.  Raise new heroes as you recognize people whose actions you can honor, but don’t expect them to have been perfect either.


I agree most folks are flawed.  I just don’t understand why only flawed white men are promoted for the most part to the exclusion of others.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Outlaw, you are starting to make white folks look bad!  I will admit Brooks isn’t a likable character.
> Can you admit that none of the offenses you listed warrants the death penalty?  Jail, fines, probation, mandatory counseling...death is excessive and unwarranted.


Isn't a likable character?  He was a piece of shit.  No, I won't admit it.  You don't get to shoot at a cop and just walk away.  Like every other black man killed by cops, HE determined his fate.  HE chose to drive drunk, punch and shoot at a cop the same way HE chose to beat his wife and kids.  HE was a human piece of shit that didn't get his day in court because HE chose to wave that right.  HE chose his death.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> White people aren't the ones calling you "coon", are they?


Tycoon or Racoon?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I agree most folks are flawed.  I just don’t understand why only flawed white men are promoted for the most part to the exclusion of others.


Oh please... let's not pretend Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, MLK and whomever else you want to name, aren't promoted like white men.  Black rappers and black athletes, who can't stay out of trouble for 5 minutes, are promoted.  Cheat on your wife, Jay Z?  Promoted.  Sell drugs and use violence to build your record label ______ (insert black name here)?  Promoted.  Fail a 5th drug test and slap your girlfriend around, black NFL player?  Promoted.  Have 8 kids with 8 different women, Dwight Howard?  Promoted.  

Hell, in 2020, you can be a violent, career criminals and have buildings burned down in honor of your refusing to comply with police.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Isn't a likable character?  He was a piece of shit.  No, I won't admit it.  You don't get to shoot at a cop and just walk away.  Like every other black man killed by cops, HE determined his fate.  HE chose to drive drunk, punch and shoot at a cop the same way HE chose to beat his wife and kids.  HE was a human piece of shit that didn't get his day in court because HE chose to wave that right.  HE chose his death.


No.  Incorrect.  One doesn’t get to be judge, jury, and executioner because they were embarrassed.  Deadly force was not reasonable or necessary.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Tycoon or Racoon?


I liken it to this:

Uncle Tom:  Good.
Uncle Ben:   Bad.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Oh please... let's not pretend Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, MLK and whomever else you want to name, aren't promoted like white men.  Black rappers and black athletes, who can't stay out of trouble for 5 minutes, are promoted.  Cheat on your wife, Jay Z?  Promoted.  Sell drugs and use violence to build your record label ______ (insert black name here)?  Promoted.  Fail a 5th drug test and slap your girlfriend around, black NFL player?  Promoted.  Have 8 kids with 8 different women, Dwight Howard?  Promoted.
> 
> Hell, in 2020, you can be a violent, career criminals and have buildings burned down in honor of your refusing to comply with police.


Really?  I would much prefer the contributions of Egypt or Jesus.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> No.  Incorrect.  One doesn’t get to be judge, jury, and executioner because they were embarrassed.  Deadly force was not reasonable or necessary.


Well, tasers CAN be fatal and so can rendering a cop defenseless, so you can take his Glock, since you've already proven you're more than willing to assault him.  Good luck getting the murder conviction.  When he beats it, don't blame anyone but your feelings.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Really?  I would much prefer the contributions of Egypt or Jesus.


Trying staying within our lifetimes.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Nobody wants this mixed up race baiting trouble maker.
> Too Funny,
> If someone signs her now it will be an arranged marriage.
> 
> ...


You are still a sick racist as are Outlaw and the other Nazi.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Liberals haven't been able to get over losing 2016, Dre.  And so you aren't surprised by it, America knows BLM is a phony, violent organization that only cares about blaming white people and cops.  BLM doesn't care about black lives.  If it did, it wouldn't promote violent, black criminals as victims.  It would put an emphasis on the deaths of actual "innocent" black people.  Even the 90% of those killed by other black people.  Pretending like black lives matter to black people won't be enough, even aided by a pandemic, to beat Trump in November.
> 
> Those here under DACA are here under a false pretense.  Just like BLM, they are glorifying illegal behavior.  So what you're saying is you clearly support breaking the law.  To Hell with those doing it the right way; waiting in line.  Let's promote more criminal behavior!
> 
> I wonder if an educated man, like yourself, has considered the ramifications of the long term damage.



How do you look at yourself in the mirror.  You are falling for the same old shit that the dumb white southerners fell for.  You don't even realize that all that you are working with is crumbs.  LOL.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Black on black crime debate?  What is there to debate?  We both know it's rampant and black folks refuse to blame themselves for it.  You'll blame some cloaked government agency parachuting drugs into ghettos back in 19-whatever and I'll remind you it's no longer 19-whatever.  Then I'll tell you black lives only matter to blacks if there's money or sympathy to be gained and you'll tell me black people are ALWAYS coming down on their own for the violence.  I'll ask you for examples and you'll say they don't make the news.  Then I'll remind you black people don't cooperate with police and you'll tell me black on black murders get solved... blah blah blah.
> 
> I don't have the tolerance for bullshit and never will.  I've never seen an entire race of wound licking victims.  If you want social justice, tell your people to steal a mirror the next time they're out getting profiled for stealing while they're shoplifting.  That's a fresh and wonderful place to start.



White people commit by far the most crimes in America.  Keep on with that poor white trash narrative.  You are exposing your poor upbringing.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Obama forced his bullshit healthcare mandate on us... what do you call that... besides "dictator"?  We don't have a dictator.  We have a duly elected President that received half of the votes in this country.  HALF.  And since the day he took office, the libtard party has done nothing but try to unseat him for an infinite number of bullshit reasons and don't next to NOTHING for the American taxpayers that pay their salaries.  We have people that haven't received an unemployment check in this state after being out of work for 3 months.  We have people that haven't received the 1 stimulus check that's been issued in 3 months.  What the fuck are they doing besides eating the corn out of Trump's shit?
> 
> Our system is full of bullshit laws that do nothing more than keep bullshit legislators employed.  Just like the incredible amount of ambulance chasers in your profession.  Making a living by keeping their hands in the pockets of hard working citizens.  As for DACA, if you think George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks are victims, there's no way you'll see anything wrong with anchor babies.



You clearly don't know how laws are made.  Please checkout schoolhouse rock.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> How do you look at yourself in the mirror.  You are falling for the same old shit that the dumb white southerners fell for.  You don't even realize that all that you are working with is crumbs.  LOL.


How?  You stop blaming everyone else for your behavior.  Simple shit... but you'd have to be willing to face accountability.  That's clearly not the strong suit of the black man and woman.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> White people commit by far the most crimes in America.  Keep on with that poor white trash narrative.  You are exposing your poor upbringing.


Right... because we're the largest population.  You know what the difference is?  Blacks commit a disproportionately large amount.  Furthermore, blacks are the only race that blame everyone else for their crimes.  Nobody else does that.  You are exposing your lack of knowledge about the statistics.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> You clearly don't know how laws are made.  Please checkout schoolhouse rock.


Really?  What process did Obama use?  









						A Judge Ruled Obamacare is Unconstitutional, Here's How it Could Impact Your Health Insurance
					

Signing up for the Affordable Care Act? Here’s how a federal judge ruling that Obamacare is unconstitutional affected open enrollment for 2019.




					time.com


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> N
> 
> Not many.  Do you realize how hard it is to get a solid drug connection?  One of these days I’ll have the black on black crime debate with you and win but I want to give you more time to prepare your weak ass superficial analysis.  It would be too easy to win and I like a challenge.  Eat right and study hard and when you’re ready we’ll have the debate.  But seriously, if you do the work the issue will resolve itself and you will be enlightened.  I think the true facts will be much more palatable to you if you discover them yourself as opposed to social justice advocate schooling you on a public forum.


I am interested in a discussion.  Not from a crime perspective, however.  Some people are criminals.  And poor people tend to be more violently criminal that non-poor people.  Seems to me that some of those crime statistics are really an outgrowth of disparity in poverty, education and aspirations (by that I mean some people don't want to be poor, other people want to own a business so as not to be poor - the specifics of hopes and dreams matter).  Being poor doesn't excuse crime, but I don't think crime statistics are mysterious when considered along side other variables.

Instead, I think a more interesting discussion is an assessment of what will be required of and from the black community to close the net worth, education and employment gaps.  Removing bias from those systems is an important and necessary step.  But, once removed (or more immediately along with that change process), what is your view of what will be required from the black community to take full advantage of an increasingly and hopefully sooner than later fully leveled playing field?  And how does that intersect with your views on "cultural assimilation," if at all?  And I ask because if people are really interested in helping heal this gaping wound in America, trying not to be unintentionally racist goes only so far.  Helping people help themselves seems to me a much better path to real, sustainable outcomes.  What does that look like for the person helping and the person being helped?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

Where are you running to, libtard?  Did your phoniness finally get revealed, ManShow boy?









						Jimmy Kimmel announces summer leave amid blackface controversy
					

ABC’s Jimmy Kimmel on Thursday announced he will be taking the summer off after facing criticism over wearing blackface in a recurring skit he performed while working on “The …




					thehill.com


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> In general, I think it’s good.  I have mentioned before that I send my kid to an International school at great personal expense because I want her to have a culturally and socially relevant education.  A huge problem in the US has been the promotion of “great white men” to the exclusion of everyone else.
> 
> As a child, I remember visiting Mt Vernon on a field trip and thinking why would the guy who never promised to lie was a slave owner with illegitimate mixed kids.  I don’t think someone that supported the institution of slavery should be honored.
> Do you think former slave owners should be promoted as heroes to our youth?


I think it depends.  I think nobody is all hero or villain.  The contributions of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and others to America are pretty significant despite them not being close to perfect.  I don't think those contributions should be presented without reference to the other important parts of their lives.  The whole story should be told.  But I think the life we lead today as Americans is, in significant part, owed to the people who created this country.  The fact that people owned slaves says something about them, but not everything.  I also think that if people believe a statue should be removed, then they should work through an available process with the appropriate authorities to remove it.  I don't think it is up to the people who pulled it down to decide that they think it should come down and then pull it down because that's how they feel.  It doesn't belong to them alone and thus is not their decision alone as to what happens to it.  If we ignore the civil processes we have in place, then this all becomes about might.  That's dangerous and I don't think any of us want to live in a society like that.  I don't - even if I have the biggest guns.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> In general, I think it’s good.  I have mentioned before that I send my kid to an International school at great personal expense because I want her to have a culturally and socially relevant education.  A huge problem in the US has been the promotion of “great white men” to the exclusion of everyone else.
> 
> As a child, I remember visiting Mt Vernon on a field trip and thinking why would the guy who never promised to lie was a slave owner with illegitimate mixed kids.  I don’t think someone that supported the institution of slavery should be honored.
> Do you think former slave owners should be promoted as heroes to our youth?


Of course they should, doesn’t mean we can’t change our minds.

People evolve, just ask Obama.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Well, tasers CAN be fatal and so can rendering a cop defenseless, so you can take his Glock, since you've already proven you're more than willing to assault him.  Good luck getting the murder conviction.  When he beats it, don't blame anyone but your feelings.


What you are failing to realize is that young law clerks are writing several preliminary motions.  The arguments you are making


Dof3 said:


> I am interested in a discussion.  Not from a crime perspective, however.  Some people are criminals.  And poor people tend to be more violently criminal that non-poor people.  Seems to me that some of those crime statistics are really an outgrowth of disparity in poverty, education and aspirations (by that I mean some people don't want to be poor, other people want to own a business so as not to be poor - the specifics of hopes and dreams matter).  Being poor doesn't excuse crime, but I don't think crime statistics are mysterious when considered along side other variables.
> 
> Instead, I think a more interesting discussion is an assessment of what will be required of and from the black community to close the net worth, education and employment gaps.  Removing bias from those systems is an important and necessary step.  But, once removed (or more immediately along with that change process), what is your view of what will be required from the black community to take full advantage of an increasingly and hopefully sooner than later fully leveled playing field?  And how does that intersect with your views on "cultural assimilation," if at all?  And I ask because if people are really interested in helping heal this gaping wound in America, trying not to be unintentionally racist goes only so far.  Helping people help themselves seems to me a much better path to real, sustainable outcomes.  What does that look like for the person helping and the person being helped?


Really all black folks need is for whites to stop being scandalous.  Black success has always scared white folks.  Look at what happened to black wall street in Oklahoma or the Black Panther Party.  I don’t know any racist black people but I know of several racist whites.

I think white men are the most violent and destructive that the world has ever seen.  The Moors civilized Europe.  Whites were uplifted by Africans and stabbed them in the back due to greed.  Blacks have never enslaved or oppressed white folks.  White folks have a long history of misappropriating black culture and history and presenting it as “white greatness.”
The white Greeks were great but they stole everything from Egypt.  If you travel the world you’ll see that the images of Jesus was black until pope Julius II commissioned Michelangelo to paint his image and he painted an image of his white surfer dude cousin.  I think this was the beginning of white supremacy.
So if white folks would stop lying and being scandalous, things would work themselves out.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> I think it depends.  I think nobody is all hero or villain.  The contributions of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and others to America are pretty significant despite them not being close to perfect.  I don't think those contributions should be presented without reference to the other important parts of their lives.  The whole story should be told.  But I think the life we lead today as Americans is, in significant part, owed to the people who created this country.  The fact that people owned slaves says something about them, but not everything.  I also think that if people believe a statue should be removed, then they should work through an available process with the appropriate authorities to remove it.  I don't think it is up to the people who pulled it down to decide that they think it should come down and then pull it down because that's how they feel.  It doesn't belong to them alone and thus is not their decision alone as to what happens to it.  If we ignore the civil processes we have in place, then this all becomes about might.  That's dangerous and I don't think any of us want to live in a society like that.  I don't - even if I have the biggest guns.


What about the process to decide what statues are erected in the first place.  I’m certain Natives & blacks weren’t considered.  Why aren’t you concerned about how the statues got there and what they represent?


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Really?  I would much prefer the contributions of Egypt or Jesus.


We don't have to go all the way to Jesus.  Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks, for example.  I certainly agree that statues of people who are not white (or male) are in far too short of supply.  But the fix is to build those statutes, not to tear down others.  What does the absence of that George Washington statue teach our children?

And, no, I am not talking about confederate generals.  I understand that perspective, but I don't see it the same as I do when we get to Washington and Jefferson.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What you are failing to realize is that young law clerks are writing several preliminary motions.  The arguments you are making
> 
> Really all black folks need is for whites to stop being scandalous.  Black success has always scared white folks.  Look at what happened to black wall street in Oklahoma or the Black Panther Party.  I don’t know any racist black people but I know of several racist whites.
> 
> ...


Who gives a shit about clerks writing motions?  What does that have to do with the FACT that tasers can be fatal?  Your poster boy physically assaulted a cop with his fists and shot at him with a deadly weapon.  You need more than clerks, you need Jackie Chiles for this abortion.

Black success is scary now?  Really?  It doesn't happen often enough to scare anybody.  And when you have it, you STILL whine.  Not enough black people winning Oscars.  Not enough black people in the NFL (65%).  Not enough black control in the NBA (75%).  You have your own network.  You have your own colleges.  You get a lowered bar to get into everyone else's.  What else?  How much is enough?  Now you're criminals are becoming heroes for being thugs.  Anything else, Dre?  You want lower interest rates?  Tax breaks?  You're already asking for reparations, even though you weren't slaves, from people that never owned slaves.

Stop with the babbling bullshit about Moors and Jesus.  Goddamn... is it a genetic inability to talk about black crime in 2020?  Here are the facts, Dre:  Blacks are the lowest academic performing race in this country.  According to a black Stanford professor, 90% of black children are born into single parent households.  Blacks represent 13% of the population and commit over 60% of violent crimes.  Black folks murder each other 7 times a day.  SEVEN TIMES PER DAY!  And if you don't know any racist black people, maybe it's because your colleagues and neighbors are white.  Even your boy Jesse Jackson said he'd rather be in a white neighborhood.  What a coincidence... so do ALL black people with money.


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> We don't have to go all the way to Jesus.  Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks, for example.  I certainly agree that statues of people who are not white (or male) are in far too short of supply.  But the fix is to build those statutes, not to tear down others.  What does the absence of that George Washington statue teach our children?
> 
> And, no, I am not talking about confederate generals.  I understand that perspective, but I don't see it the same as I do when we get to Washington and Jefferson.


What they represent as decided by whom?  Local decisions are made locally and people should vote.  That's where input comes from.  And, believe me, I understand the frustration of living someplace where the majority of voters disagrees with you.  My choice is to engage the process and convince enough others, move or be frustrated.  It doesn't mean that I can decide that I don't agree and start breaking stuff.


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What you are failing to realize is that young law clerks are writing several preliminary motions.  The arguments you are making
> 
> Really all black folks need is for whites to stop being scandalous.  Black success has always scared white folks.  Look at what happened to black wall street in Oklahoma or the Black Panther Party.  I don’t know any racist black people but I know of several racist whites.
> 
> ...


Ok.  If you are telling me that you don't know any black racist people, then you stop being a serious person in my view.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

By the way, Dre, Black Wall Street was basically 3 square blocks in shit hole Tulsa, OK.  It hasn't been rebuilt.  Why not?  Why don't wealthy black people reinvest in black communities?  I know why.  What say you?  Why do wealthy black people hold onto their own money and live in Santa Barbara, Oprah?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 19, 2020)

MakeAPlay said:


> You are still a sick racist as are Outlaw and the other Nazi.


Joe what?
Nobody wants her and it’s my fault?
He need to shut up and throw.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> We don't have to go all the way to Jesus.  Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks, for example.  I certainly agree that statues of people who are not white (or male) are in far too short of supply.  But the fix is to build those statutes, not to tear down others.  What does the absence of that George Washington statue teach our children?
> And, no, I am not talking about confederate generals.  I understand that perspective, but I don't see it the same as I do when we get to Washington and Jefferson.


Why don’t you see Washington and Jefferson the same?  I suspect it’s because you were brainwashed with a romanticized version of white male greatness regarding Washington and Jefferson during your youth like I was.
I hated school because it was


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Who gives a shit about clerks writing motions?  What does that have to do with the FACT that tasers can be fatal?  Your poster boy physically assaulted a cop with his fists and shot at him with a deadly weapon.  You need more than clerks, you need Jackie Chiles for this abortion.
> 
> Black success is scary now?  Really?  It doesn't happen often enough to scare anybody.  And when you have it, you STILL whine.  Not enough black people winning Oscars.  Not enough black people in the NFL (65%).  Not enough black control in the NBA (75%).  You have your own network.  You have your own colleges.  You get a lowered bar to get into everyone else's.  What else?  How much is enough?  Now you're criminals are becoming heroes for being thugs.  Anything else, Dre?  You want lower interest rates?  Tax breaks?  You're already asking for reparations, even though you weren't slaves, from people that never owned slaves.
> 
> Stop with the babbling bullshit about Moors and Jesus.  Goddamn... is it a genetic inability to talk about black crime in 2020?  Here are the facts, Dre:  Blacks are the lowest academic performing race in this country.  According to a black Stanford professor, 90% of black children are born into single parent households.  Blacks represent 13% of the population and commit over 60% of violent crimes.  Black folks murder each other 7 times a day.  SEVEN TIMES PER DAY!  And if you don't know any racist black people, maybe it's because your colleagues and neighbors are white.  Even your boy Jesse Jackson said he'd rather be in a white neighborhood.  What a coincidence... so do ALL black people with money.


Law clerks are filing motions in limine.  I guarantee you the jury will hear none of the garbage that you speak of.

Outlaw, you embarrass the white in me.  Black colleges?  How about colleges started by white men for their illegitimate mixed kids where the criteria for admissions was that you had to be lighter than a paper bag.  I think Obama would have gotten in back in the days but not me I’m too dark.  I wasn’t the recipient of Affirmative action.  I can also tell that LEOP was majority white while I was at Hastings.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Ok.  If you are telling me that you don't know any black racist people, then you stop being a serious person in my view.


Blacks have been enslaved and persecuted by whites.  The distrust, anger, and hatred is justified.  Blacks would be dumb as fuck to overlook 400 years of persecution and bondage.  What’s the justification for white folks?


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Blacks have been enslaved and persecuted by whites.  The distrust, anger, and hatred is justified.  Blacks would be dumb as fuck to overlook 400 years of persecution and bondage.  What’s the justification for white folks?


Distrust, anger and hatred - your words - of and towards present day white people by present day black people is justified?  Your hatred is justified by my whiteness but you don't know any black racists.  With that perspective, I don't think you have to look very hard to find one.  And, more practically, it is not a functional approach to resolving race issues in America.  That is unless you think that black people are just going to impose their will over white people in all facets of society.  That seems unlikely to me and certainly not without a staggering number of dead white and black people.  So, keep that point of view and approach to resolution of the racial divide in America and see how well things work out.  I think you are too smart to be that myopic.  Good luck to you.  I hope you find some peace and a change of heart.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Distrust, anger and hatred - your words - of and towards present day white people by present day black people is justified?  Your hatred is justified by my whiteness but you don't know any black racists.  With that perspective, I don't think you have to look very hard to find one.  And, more practically, it is not a functional approach to resolving race issues in America.  That is unless you think that black people are just going to impose their will over white people in all facets of society.  That seems unlikely to me and certainly not without a staggering number of dead white and black people.  So, keep that point of view and approach to resolution of the racial divide in America and see how well things work out.  I think you are too smart to be that myopic.  Good luck to you.  I hope you find some peace and a change of heart.


Actually it’s the point of view of the top Sociologist and Anthropologist at top Universities throughout the world.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What you are failing to realize is that young law clerks are writing several preliminary motions.  The arguments you are making
> 
> Really all black folks need is for whites to stop being scandalous.  Black success has always scared white folks.  Look at what happened to black wall street in Oklahoma or the Black Panther Party.  I don’t know any racist black people but I know of several racist whites.
> 
> ...


Your history is kind of weak. 

Those Moors who civilized Europe?  Their descendants were the Barbary Coast Pirates who ran the slave markets in Algiers, Tunisia, and Tripoli.  The slave markets where you could buy a white woman recently abducted from Italy or France, or a black woman who had been forced to walk across the Sahara. 

Now , why is it that the Moors count as black when they are helping keep civilization alive in Europe, but don’t count as black when they are running slave markets?  It’s the same people.  You can't call them black in from 800 to 1300 but white from 1500 to 1800.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 19, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> If we ignore the civil processes we have in place, then this all becomes about might.  That's dangerous and I don't think any of us want to live in a society like that.


For a good view of the "civil processes" you just have to look at the gerrymandering that takes place all over this country by both Ds & Rs. You just have to look at the rigging of the judiciary by both Ds & Rs, despite the fact that it is meant to be separate and a check.

When people are predicting whether cases will be won/lost based on the politics of the judges, you know that there are no civil processes - they've been bought & paid for.

The greatest fears of the Rs & Ds are
1. everyone will vote
2. a third party


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Your history is kind of weak.
> 
> Those Moors who civilized Europe?  Their descendants were the Barbary Coast Pirates who ran the slave markets in Algiers, Tunisia, and Tripoli.  The slave markets where you could buy a white woman recently abducted from Italy or France, or a black woman who had been forced to walk across the Sahara.
> 
> Now , why is it that the Moors count as black when they are helping keep civilization alive in Europe, but don’t count as black when they are running slave markets?  It’s the same people.  You can't call them black in from 800 to 1300 but white from 1500 to 1800.


I never said blacks didn’t run slave markets.  I also never knew French and Italian were sold as slaves.  I’m not an expert on this subject matter.  I learned most of it recently helping my daughter with her homework at her International school.  We also visited museums in Madrid, Seville, and the Alhambra in Granada, Spain.  They really emphasize constructivism at her school so we take lots of trips.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 19, 2020)

What’s wrong with you people?









						Oakland mayor: It doesn't matter if the "nooses" found in our public park turned out to be hand swings
					

“The intentions do not matter because the harm is real.




					hotair.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Law clerks are filing motions in limine.  I guarantee you the jury will hear none of the garbage that you speak of.
> 
> Outlaw, you embarrass the white in me.  Black colleges?  How about colleges started by white men for their illegitimate mixed kids where the criteria for admissions was that you had to be lighter than a paper bag.  I think Obama would have gotten in back in the days but not me I’m too dark.  I wasn’t the recipient of Affirmative action.  I can also tell that LEOP was majority white while I was at Hastings.


So you want to hide the facts?  He shot at the cop, with a taser, after assaulting him with his fists.  That's all the jury needs to know.  Oh, and let's not forget that DUI.  "Content of character", right Dre?  I never thought you benefited from AA.  The country is full of successful African Americans that spent their time working and achieving rather than complaining with their hands out.  Not sure why so many use that crutch.

Listen, I appreciate the history lessons.  Not really, but I'll tell you I do.  I'm not aware of the colleges you reference.  The problem is that none of that is relevant as an excuse for the lack of appreciation for education now.  The lack of respect for teachers and administrators.  The lack of integrity when it comes to going to jail for your crimes.  It COULD be single parent households.  It could be the behavior they see in their baby daddies before they leave the home and/or go to prison. 

Does it bother you that 13% of the population commits over 60% of violent crimes?  Does it bother you that African Americans murder each other 7 times per day?  Does it bother you that protests are for dead criminals and not the lives of innocent black people because, truth be told, blacks don't care about blacks dying unless there's a honkey to blame?

Thoughts?


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 19, 2020)

whatithink said:


> For a good view of the "civil processes" you just have to look at the gerrymandering that takes place all over this country by both Ds & Rs. You just have to look at the rigging of the judiciary by both Ds & Rs, despite the fact that it is meant to be separate and a check.
> 
> When people are predicting whether cases will be won/lost based on the politics of the judges, you know that there are no civil processes - they've been bought & paid for.
> 
> ...


Indeed true.  And it is unhelpful when people criticize Roberts and Gorsuch, and earlier Kavanaugh, for acting outside of the orthodoxy of whomever nominated them.  Disagree...fine, but they aren't traitors because the see an issue differently.  I wish the 4 more liberal justices acted with that same ideological independence more often.  

It would be great if everyone voted and I am all for a legitimate third party.  That might force both Ds & Rs to be more responsive to constituencies other than their most extreme.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What’s wrong with you people?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon, Joe, you know they have to strike while it's hot.  You notice there's been nothing further about the 2 black men found hanging?  Why do you think that is?  They believe it was suicide and won't take 5 minutes to report that.  Better to keep blaming whitey.  His hood rat brother bit it, though.









						Brother of man found hanged dies in a deputy-involved shooting | CNN
					

The brother of Robert Fuller, the 24-year-old black man who was found dead hanging in the city of Palmdale, California, last week, was killed in a deputy-involved shooting in Kern County on Wednesday, according to Fuller's family attorney.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 19, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> So you want to hide the facts?  He shot at the cop, with a taser, after assaulting him with his fists.  That's all the jury needs to know.  Oh, and let's not forget that DUI.  "Content of character", right Dre?
> 
> Listen, I appreciate the history lessons.  Not really, but I'll tell you I do.  I'm not aware of the colleges you reference.  The problem is that none of that is relevant as an excuse for the lack of appreciation for education now.  The lack of respect for teachers and administrators.  The lack of integrity when it comes to going to jail for your crimes.  It COULD be single parent households.  It could be the behavior they see in their baby daddies before they leave the home and/or go to prison.
> 
> ...


Outlaw did I tell you that my pasty white Scottish legitimate grandpa was one of the original settlers of this great nation.  I’m proud of my European heritage.  Hell, I inherited Commonage property which will lead to great wealth for my kids.  Shot out to any of the descendants of the Thompson’s from Scotland !


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Outlaw did I tell you that my pasty white Scottish legitimate grandpa was one of the original settlers of this great nation.  I’m proud of my European heritage.  Hell, I inherited Commonage property which will lead to great wealth for my kids.  Shot out to any of the descendants of the Thompson’s from Scotland !


Fabulous.  We should change your name to "Boomerang" since everything sent your way comes right back with zero effort.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 19, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Outlaw did I tell you that my pasty white Scottish legitimate grandpa was one of the original settlers of this great nation.  I’m proud of my European heritage.  Hell, I inherited Commonage property which will lead to great wealth for my kids.  Shot out to any of the descendants of the Thompson’s from Scotland !


Grandpa was an original settler?  Jamestown?  And grandma was a teenager when Lincoln was president?

I do believe y'all are the longest lived family I ever met.  'Cept ma uncle Salathiel, of course.  Ole Sal came over with Leif Eriksen.  Got into an argument with Leif over some walrus ivory.  Settled it by agreeing that Sal could keep Newfoundland and Leif kept the ivory.  (Which is how I got legal title to all Newfoundland.)

Of course, that left Sal with no ride back home. He didnt get back to Norway until he talked John Cabot into giving him a ride some years later, but that's another story.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

WALSH: White Privilege Is A Myth. Here’s How Privilege Really Works In America.  | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Some people just need to STFU.









						Edwards: Trump Sowing 'Chaos' for His 'Hardcore White Supremacist Base' with Tulsa Rally
					

Friday on MSNBC, network political commentator former Rep. Donna Edwards (D- MD) accused President Donald Trump of choosing Tulsa, OK for his rally on Saturday to spread chaos among black Americans to please his "hardcore white supremacist base." | Clips




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Black Preacher: Planned Parenthood #1 Killer of Black Population
					

A black preacher confronted Black Lives Matter protesters, asserting Planned Parenthood is the number one killer of the black community.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

No shit.








						Black Lives Matter Co-Founder: 'Our Goal Is to Get Trump Out'
					

Black Lives Matter Global Network co-founder Patrisse Cullors said President Donald Trump should resign from office immediately.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Jamie Foxx Demands Tyrese Gibson Explain Posting Video Showing Black Actors Denouncing Systemic Racism
					

Actor Jamie Foxx is demanding that singer-actor Tyrese Gibson explain why he posted a video on Instagram showing black actors, from Denzel Washington to Morgan Freeman, denouncing systemic racism.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

CHOP Hosts Black-only Event in Park for Juneteenth; White 'Allies' Asked for Security, Money
					

The radical enclave in Seattle known as CHOP will apparently feature a Juneteenth celebration that will be restricted to black people.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

BLM at War with America
					

Outrageously, cowardly and traitorous politicians are allowing Black Lives Matter, a racist hate group to engage in an “Everything Must Go” fire-sale against America. BLM is literally pulling down monuments and demanding that large portio...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

There's an ugly cynicism lurking behind the Black Lives Matter movement
					

In America, woe betide anyone who dares to say that




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Political violence then and now
					

The men who pulled Reginald Denny from his truck during the Rodney King riots and beat him to a pulp had no idea who Rodney King was.  They just wanted the truck.  Many of the men who stormed the Winter Palace with fir...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Democrats picking the scab of racism
					

They're picking the scab of racism with dirty hands and introducing infection.  It's resistant to treatment at the moment.  I could prescribe a treatment, but I wouldn't survive that.  I imagine that this may...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

How about we keep Juneteenth and lose Kwanzaa?
					

Abraham Lincoln is an amazing guy.  He died over 150 years ago yet seems more relevant today than any of our living leaders.  For timid congressional Republicans, then and now, he has this message:




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Thank God for cops
					

During widespread violence in the aftermath of the unwarranted police killing of George Floyd, more than 800 police officers tasked with maintaining order in America's cities were shot, stabbed, spit on, hit by cars, cursed, called Nazis, smeared...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Always liked Clay.








						Muhammad Ali’s son says dad would have hated ‘racist’ Black Lives Matter
					

On the fourth anniversary of his death, Muhammad Ali’s only biological son says that his father would be against Black Lives Matter, calling the movement “racist” and the protesters “devils.” The l…




					nypost.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> WALSH: White Privilege Is A Myth. Here’s How Privilege Really Works In America.  | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*WHITE PRIVILEGE:* _Value education, respect elders, follow laws, work hard, cooperate with law enforcement._

Seems SO simple... not sure why only certain people can't grasp the concept.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Always liked Clay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see why his dad disowned his ass.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I see why his dad disowned his ass.


Yep... he's an Uncle Tom, Dre.  I guess he never got the memo.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I see why his dad disowned his ass.


Not quite black enough, huh?

Makes pretty good sense.

With regard to the Black Lives Matter movement specifically, Ali Jr. said he believes BLM is "racist" — and his father would have, too.

"I think it's racist," he said. "It's not just black lives matter, white lives matter, Chinese lives matter, all lives matter, everybody's life matters. God loves everyone — he never singled anyone out. Killing is wrong no matter who it is."


"It's pitting black people against everyone else. It starts racial things to happen; I hate that," he added of the BLM movement.

Ali Jr., like his father, is Muslim.

Meanwhile, Ali Jr. also defended law enforcement.

"Police don't wake up and think, 'I'm going to kill a n****r today or kill a white man,'" he said. "They're just trying to make it back home to their family in one piece."

He added, "Not all the police are bad, there's just a few. There's a handful of police that are crooked, they should be locked up," he said. "I never had a bad scene with a cop. They've always been nice and protect me. I don't have a problem with them."


Muhammad Ali in 1962. (Stanley Weston/Getty Images)
Most surprisingly, Ali Jr. said he is a Trump supporter and his father would have been, too.

"I think Trump's a good president. My father would have supported him. Trump's not a racist, he's for all the people. Democrats are the ones who are racist and not for everybody," Ali Jr. said. "These [Democrat politicians] saying Black Lives Matter, who the hell are you to say that? You're not even black."

"Democrats don't give a s**t about anybody. Hillary Clinton doesn't give a s**t; she's trying not to get locked up," he added. "Trump is much better than Clinton and Obama. … The only one to do what he said he would do is Donald Trump."


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

TheBlaze
					

News and entertainment for people who love America.




					www.theblaze.com


----------



## dad4 (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I see why his dad disowned his ass.


That's a pretty lame ad hominem attack.  Who cares if Ali Sr disowned Ali Jr?

Ali Jr is talking about the thousands of young black men being murdered every year.  That's important.

And no, it isn't the police doing it.  

And no, diverting them towards YBMB didn't seem to help, either.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

Here is to all the kneelers out there,
Get Fucked.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> That's a pretty lame ad hominem attack.  Who cares if Ali Sr disowned Ali Jr?
> 
> Ali Jr is talking about the thousands of young black men being murdered every year.  That's important.
> 
> ...


I think it’s relevant because he’s speaking to how someone would respond to a specific event.  His father obviously did not like this guy and hadn’t spoken to him for over 10 yrs before he died.  A lot can change about a person in 10 years.  Yep, I think it’s very relevant that dude couldn’t figure out how to get along with his dad and then turn around with such certainty and say how his dad would have responded.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think it’s relevant because he’s speaking to how someone would respond to a specific event.  His father obviously did not like this guy and hadn’t spoken to him for over 10 yrs before he died.  A lot can change about a person in 10 years.  Yep, I think it’s very relevant that dude couldn’t figure out how to get along with his dad and then turn around with such certainty and say how his dad would have responded.


Dre, have you heard any black celebrities speak out against this man?  I know the media will only do stories on the black victim.  White lives don't matter unless they're white cops killing violent black criminals that refuse to comply.  Then we get to burn buildings and cars down.

Has LeBron or Kanye donated money to either family?  What about the murdered black girl?  Did her life matter?  Or will Al Sharpton not speak at her funeral?









						Tallahassee police say suspect confessed to kidnapping and killing student, 19, and volunteer, 75
					

Aaron Glee Jr. said he imprisoned one of the victims, Oluwatoyin Salau, for days in his home and sexually assaulted her, according to court documents.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think it’s relevant because he’s speaking to how someone would respond to a specific event.  His father obviously did not like this guy and hadn’t spoken to him for over 10 yrs before he died.  A lot can change about a person in 10 years.  Yep, I think it’s very relevant that dude couldn’t figure out how to get along with his dad and then turn around with such certainty and say how his dad would have responded.


Yes, you know better than his own kid, fucking libs.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think it’s relevant because he’s speaking to how someone would respond to a specific event.  His father obviously did not like this guy and hadn’t spoken to him for over 10 yrs before he died.  A lot can change about a person in 10 years.  Yep, I think it’s very relevant that dude couldn’t figure out how to get along with his dad and then turn around with such certainty and say how his dad would have responded.


That’s all about the person.   About the substance...........???


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Dre, have you heard any black celebrities speak out against this man?  I know the media will only do stories on the black victim.  White lives don't matter unless they're white cops killing violent black criminals that refuse to comply.  Then we get to burn buildings and cars down.
> 
> Has LeBron or Kanye donated money to either family?  What about the murdered black girl?  Did her life matter?  Or will Al Sharpton not speak at her funeral?
> 
> ...


This atrocity is an isolated incident.  If incidents like this occurred regularly like police brutality against blacks, people would speak out against it.  There’s no need to protest the system working properly.

Your argument can only work if black folks were challenging this scumbags arrest and their not.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Yes, you know better than his own kid, fucking libs.


What makes you think I’m a liberal?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> That’s all about the person.   About the substance...........???


Of course, it’s an appeal to authority...how is this person qualified to opine on anything?  No substance buddy, just a big ass red herring!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> This atrocity is an isolated incident.  If incidents like this occurred regularly like police brutality against blacks, people would speak out against it.  There’s no need to protest the system working properly.
> 
> Your argument can only work if black folks were challenging this scumbags arrest and their not.


If black criminals regularly complied with arrest, they'd be alive.  Since blacks murder each other 7 times per day, everyday, you'd think that would be more important than black criminals that die less than 10% of the time.  I'd say an average of 50 murders per week, week after week, means many aren't being solved.  Is that what you mean by "working properly"?  I'd say a 20% success rate is more of a dismal failure, pal.









						Chicago's Dismal Murder Solve Rate Even Worse When Victims Are Black
					

City data over 19 months show police solved 47% of murders with white victims and 22% with black victims.




					www.npr.org


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> If black criminals regularly complied with arrest, they'd be alive.  Since blacks murder each other 7 times per day, everyday, you'd think that would be more important than black criminals that die less than 10% of the time.  I'd say an average of 50 murders per week, week after week, means many aren't being solved.  Is that what you mean by "working properly"?  I'd say a 20% success rate is more of a dismal failure, pal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is black on black crime your response to everything?


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Is black on black crime your response to everything?


So far that is his whole world view.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What makes you think I’m a liberal?


That’s a good one.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Is black on black crime your response to everything?


No... I'm just wondering why you and your brethren continue to avoid the subject.  It's quite relevant because BLACK LIVES are supposed to MATTER but they only matter to black people when whitey can be blamed and there's sympathy or money.  Furthermore, I guess I'm puzzled when 2,500 black on black murders happen every year but the 223 by cops is what REALLY upsets you.  Does that seem as ridiculous to you as it does me?  You don't want to address the 90%... you have a problem with the 10% that are dying because they resist arrest.  That's idiotic to anybody.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> No... I'm just wondering why you and your brethren continue to avoid the subject.  It's quite relevant because BLACK LIVES are supposed to MATTER but they only matter to black people when whitey can be blamed and there's sympathy or money.  Furthermore, I guess I'm puzzled when 2,500 black on black murders happen every year but the 223 by cops is what REALLY upsets you.  Does that seem as ridiculous to you as it does me?  You don't want to address the 90%... you have a problem with the 10% that are dying because they resist arrest.  That's idiotic to anybody.


"No" - and then a whole lot of yes.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Is black on black crime your response to everything?


Not for me.  I will let outlaw speak for himself.  (He and I tend to disagree.)

However, given the body count, maybe urban violence deserves a more realistic solution than "no snitchin" and sending ex-convicts to YBMB.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 20, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Not for me.  I will let outlaw speak for himself.  (He and I tend to disagree.)
> 
> However, given the body count, maybe urban violence deserves a more realistic solution than "no snitchin" and sending ex-convicts to YBMB.


More blaming the victim.  The violence of which you speak is a direct result of COINTELPRO.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> More blaming the victim.  The violence of which you speak is a direct result of COINTELPRO.


Cointelpro?  

So, when a 15 year old kid shoots a 14 year old kid in Chicago in 2020, it's J Edgar Hoover's fault?  He's been dead for 48 years.   I doubt he was the trigger man.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 20, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Here is to all the kneelers out there,
> Get Fucked.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

MacDre said:


> More blaming the victim.  The violence of which you speak is a direct result of COINTELPRO.


What victim?  The cop responding to a call, just doing his job, or the hood rat that forces his hand because he won't comply with an arrest?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

EOTL said:


> View attachment 7802


Yep... take that knee in support of black criminals.  You've got to have SOME kind of hero.  Might as well be a dead thug.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 20, 2020)

espola said:


> "No" - and then a whole lot of yes.


You hide more than anybody.  7 black on black murders everyday in this country.  You don't give a fuck until it's a white cop involved.  Whining hypocrite.  Keep running from the statistics.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You hide more than anybody.  7 black on black murders everyday in this country.  You don't give a fuck until it's a white cop involved.  Whining hypocrite.  Keep running from the statistics.


Black on black murders are recognized as crimes which the police investigate and for which someone may be tried and go to jail.  BLM protestors are asking for the same treatment for cop on black murders.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

On capitalizing 'Black' but not 'white'
					

As we descend farther into more racial balkanization, it is noteworthy to point out that in 2015, the Columbia Journalism Review (CJR) ushered in a discussion about how to capitalize the words




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> View attachment 7802


You probably forgot how bad Colin Kaepernick was last year


foxsports
Nov 15, 2016 at 1:58p ET
Tuesday, San Francisco 49ers fans finally received what they’ve been asking for — Colin Kaepernick is now the team’s starting quarterback.

Chip Kelly didn’t have much of a choice — while it isn’t necessarily Blaine Gabbert’s fault the 49ers’ offense is one of the worst units in the league, he certainly wasn’t the solution to that problem.

Is Kaepernick? Probably not.

A lot has happened since the last time Kaepernick took the field for the 49ers:

Jim Tomsula and his staff were fired, Kaepernick underwent multiple offseason surgeries and was retained by the team, guaranteeing his nearly $12 million salary. He avoided being cut in the preseason, despite two terrible performances, and you might have heard about some situation involving the National Anthem — at this point, so many people have appropriated erroneous (at best) meaning to that peaceful protest I’m not quite sure what that’s about anymore.

It’s a lot, and because of all of that, it’s easy to forget just how bad Kaepernick was the last time he took the field.
Kaepernick was replaced by Gabbert last year for a reason — he turned in one of the worst quarterbacking seasons in recent NFL history. The Browns wouldn’t have started him.

Let’s refresh the memory:

Last season, Kaepernick had a defense-adjusted yards above replacement — Football Outsiders’ ultimate value quotient — of minus-182, 35th in the NFL. By all metrics, he was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league.

These numbers look even worse when you consider that the 49ers went to a single-read offense for Kaepernick after his terrible four-interception performance against the Arizona Cardinals in Week 3.

Each progressive interception in that game was worse — it was a total unraveling.

It only devolved further from there.

Kaepernick lost the 49ers locker room after a home loss to the Packers in Week 4 — Torrey Smith and Anquan Boldin both vented their frustrations with the [insert any and all expletives here] play of their quarterback during and after the game (the latter being more of the passive-aggressive variety, as two of the most loquacious and intelligent players on the team refused to talk to the media).

Kaepernick was air-mailing throws all over the field, and when he wasn’t doing that, he was skipping easy ones like this.

The 49ers went to a read-option offense for the next two games, and Kaepernick and the Niners didn’t look half bad. They weren’t a good team, but they weren’t being embarrassed.

But then defenses figured it out. The unraveling became a meltdown.
Kaepernick’s performance in the 49ers’ Week 7 Thursday Night Football game last year was among the worst quarterback performances in recent NFL history. As I wrote at the time "his mechanics had become so disorganized that even the easiest toss became an adventure in forward passing."

We’re talking about 10-yard outs being thrown 15 feet over receivers’ heads. Eventually, the 49ers stopped throwing the ball on third-and-long, such was the struggle.

It kept getting worse and worse. You honestly couldn’t tell if Kaepernick was throwing the ball away or aiming for intended receivers by the end of the contest.

There were basic mental lapses, too — on a third down in the second quarter, he broke the huddle with 17 seconds remaining on the play clock, only to try to change the play with three seconds remaining. The Niners were hit with a delay-of-game flag.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

At least we know.









						Black Lives Matter founder admits org's creators are 'trained Marxists,' BLM's goal is to 'get Trump out'
					

The Black Lives Matter co-founder has a leftist agenda to get President Trump out of office




					www.theblaze.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> What victim?  The cop responding to a call, just doing his job, or the hood rat that forces his hand because he won't comply with an arrest?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

espola said:


> Black on black murders are recognized as crimes which the police investigate and for which someone may be tried and go to jail.  BLM protestors are asking for the same treatment for cop on black murders.


Recognized as crimes until cops show up to investigate and get no help from the black community because snitching ain't "woke".  I've posted it multiple times now... black on black murders are solved about 20% of the time.  I guess defunding the police is a smart idea when you have 50 murders per week and only 1 in 5 is ever solved.  Yeah... Black Lives Matter to you, don't they?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7810


Yet you live in a nice area where you can count on your neighbors to call the police if there is a burglary.  

Part of the reason the justice system works for whites is that we use it.  If I saw someone breaking my neighbor’s window, there is no doubt I would call the police.  So would my neighbor if it were reversed.  

I don’t see how you can say “no snitching” with one breath and ask for justice with the next.  How are the police going to help with anything if no one talks to them?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7810


The law system?  How come everybody else can follow laws and rules, Dre?  Is it because a significant portion of black people choose to ignore them or believe they don't apply to them?  Or that refusing to comply during an arrest "ain't puttin' respeck on mah name"?  

Please... I realize the black man's 15 minutes of sympathy are almost up, but have some personal dignity.  I'm amazed you managed to overcome all the horror, Dre.  What did you do... stay in school and go to work everyday?  Is THAT your secret?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yet you live in a nice area where you can count on your neighbors to call the police if there is a burglary.
> 
> Part of the reason the justice system works for whites is that we use it.  If I saw someone breaking my neighbor’s window, there is no doubt I would call the police.  So would my neighbor if it were reversed.
> 
> I don’t see how you can say “no snitching” with one breath and ask for justice with the next.  How are the police going to help with anything if no one talks to them?


Of course whites feel comfortable using the cops/klan to advance and protect their interests?  Why should blacks have any faith in a biased legal process that was designed to oppress them?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> The law system?  How come everybody else can follow laws and rules, Dre?  Is it because a significant portion of black people choose to ignore them or believe they don't apply to them?  Or that refusing to comply during an arrest "ain't puttin' respeck on mah name"?
> 
> Please... I realize the black man's 15 minutes of sympathy are almost up, but have some personal dignity.  I'm amazed you managed to overcome all the horror, Dre.  What did you do... stay in school and go to work everyday?  Is THAT your secret?


No my secret is that I’m non threatening and white folks like me.  There are lazy black folk.  My donut loving fat ass LAPD brother is one of them.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Of course whites feel comfortable using the cops/klan to advance and protect their interests?  Why should blacks have any faith in a biased legal process that was designed to oppress them?


Do you mind leaving me out of the klan?  I don’t use the klan to advance my interests, and I resent the implication.  Nor do I think most police officers deserve that kind of accusation.

I don‘t see why you think my interest and your interest in policing are any different.  You would like your car to be there when you return.  I agree.  There is no reason to care about the color of your skin, my skin, or the car thief’s skin.  We just want the car to not get stolen.

Now, if you think the car thief, after stealing cars, shouldn’t have to go to jail, then we disagree.  I probably agree more with your brother on that one.    

And on donuts.  Nothing wrong with a good donut.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Of course whites feel comfortable using the cops/klan to advance and protect their interests?  Why should blacks have any faith in a biased legal process that was designed to oppress them?


Designed to oppress them?  How, by having the expectation that they're capable of following rules and laws?  That's on the black community.  You should know that... or are you going to tell me there aren't any black judges, black lawyers or black cops?  Get out of here with that "we be oppressed" bullshit.

There are A LOT of lazy black folk out there.  They'd rather play the victim than work for something.  Blame their failures on racism.  The problem is, they won't listen to anyone and black folks like you, who aren't lazy, won't hold them accountable.  Kanye and LeBron will keep donating money to the problem.  Not a fucking dime to working black men killed by lazy black men... but thousands for the druggie, violent felons killed because they resisted arrest.   Not real tough to figure out.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Do you mind leaving me out of the klan?  I don’t use the klan to advance my interests, and I resent the implication.  Nor do I think most police officers deserve that kind of accusation.
> 
> I don‘t see why you think my interest and your interest in policing are any different.  You would like your car to be there when you return.  I agree.  There is no reason to care about the color of your skin, my skin, or the car thief’s skin.  We just want the car to not get stolen.
> 
> ...


You don’t need to use the klan to advance your interests because the klan does it for you free of charge. How ‘bout we just call you a rascal-operating, toothless, trailer-parking klan sympathizer?

Stereotyping cops and other racists is a perfectly justified response to their stereotyping. What’s good for the goose is good for the crow.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Designed to oppress them?  How, by having the expectation that they're capable of following rules and laws?  That's on the black community.  You should know that... or are you going to tell me there aren't any black judges, black lawyers or black cops?  Get out of here with that "we be oppressed" bullshit.
> 
> There are A LOT of lazy black folk out there.  They'd rather play the victim than work for something.  Blame their failures on racism.  The problem is, they won't listen to anyone and black folks like you, who aren't lazy, won't hold them accountable.  Kanye and LeBron will keep donating money to the problem.  Not a fucking dime to working black men killed by lazy black men... but thousands for the druggie, violent felons killed because they resisted arrest.   Not real tough to figure out.


Who’s lazy?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You don’t need to use the klan to advance your interests because the klan does it for you free of charge. How ‘bout we just call you a rascal-operating, toothless, trailer-parking klan sympathizer?
> 
> Stereotyping cops and other racists is a perfectly justified response to their stereotyping. What’s good for the goose is good for the crow.


I have it all figured out for you.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Do you mind leaving me out of the klan?  I don’t use the klan to advance my interests, and I resent the implication.  Nor do I think most police officers deserve that kind of accusation.
> 
> I don‘t see why you think my interest and your interest in policing are any different.  You would like your car to be there when you return.  I agree.  There is no reason to care about the color of your skin, my skin, or the car thief’s skin.  We just want the car to not get stolen.
> 
> ...


No one wants to be a victim of crime.  It would be nice if the “system” worked for my community the same way it does for yours.

The police have violated the trust of my community and no one is going to put their family in danger by cooperating with their investigation.  However, if there were community police that are members of the community and have rapport the cops would get the news before God.

But nah, let’s put the po’s po’s in the hood with the “FUCKERY” and act surprised when folks don’t trust them.  GTFOH


----------



## dad4 (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You don’t need to use the klan to advance your interests because the klan does it for you free of charge. How ‘bout we just call you a rascal-operating, toothless, trailer-parking klan sympathizer?
> 
> Stereotyping cops and other racists is a perfectly justified response to their stereotyping. What’s good for the goose is good for the crow.


Calling names is fun.  And, so long as you don’t mind when a 2 year old is shot dead for the crime of playing too close to the window, your system works great.

If you do mind, then maybe it’s time time to work with police instead of accusing them of all being racists.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Calling names is fun.  And, so long as you don’t mind when a 2 year old is shot dead for the crime of playing too close to the window, your system works great.
> 
> If you do mind, then maybe it’s time time to work with police instead of accusing them of all being racists.


Yes, ever since your president green lighted name-calling, I have thoroughly enjoyed the new rules.

Maybe you should work with the police to make sure they stop killing women sleeping in their own beds. Or dudes eating ice cream on their own couch. Or twelve year olds eating a bag of chips that “looked like a gun”.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

Happy Father’s Day.

Hope you kneelers are better at being fathers than you are at being Patriotic Americans.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You don’t need to use the klan to advance your interests because the klan does it for you free of charge. How ‘bout we just call you a rascal-operating, toothless, trailer-parking klan sympathizer?
> 
> Stereotyping cops and other racists is a perfectly justified response to their stereotyping. What’s good for the goose is good for the crow.


Stereotyping works.
See NewYork and the good Mayor Giuliani.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> No one wants to be a victim of crime.  It would be nice if the “system” worked for my community the same way it does for yours.
> 
> The police have violated the trust of my community and no one is going to put their family in danger by cooperating with their investigation.  However, if there were community police that are members of the community and have rapport the cops would get the news before God.
> 
> But nah, let’s put the po’s po’s in the hood with the “FUCKERY” and act surprised when folks don’t trust them.  GTFOH


You mean something like this, right?









						How a new kind of policing saved America's most dangerous city | CNN
					

CNN legal analyst Anne Milgram, framed in the recent discussions of disbanding police departments across America, writes about how the city of Camden drastically reduced criminality by reforming its police force.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Who’s lazy?
> View attachment 7812


At least he has a productive job... as opposed to...



They're 10 times more likely to shoot each other because they're stupid, violent hood rats.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I have it all figured out for you.
> View attachment 7813


Available soon in Meth, THC and Fentanyl flavors.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> No one wants to be a victim of crime.  It would be nice if the “system” worked for my community the same way it does for yours.
> 
> The police have violated the trust of my community and no one is going to put their family in danger by cooperating with their investigation.  However, if there were community police that are members of the community and have rapport the cops would get the news before God.
> 
> But nah, let’s put the po’s po’s in the hood with the “FUCKERY” and act surprised when folks don’t trust them.  GTFOH


LMAO!  Why do you think black cops don't want to work in black communities?  They wouldn't even LIVE there... let alone work.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Yes, ever since your president green lighted name-calling, I have thoroughly enjoyed the new rules.
> 
> Maybe you should work with the police to make sure they stop killing women sleeping in their own beds. Or dudes eating ice cream on their own couch. Or twelve year olds eating a bag of chips that “looked like a gun”.


Maybe women sleeping in their own beds should stop getting involved with hood rat drug dealers.  Your 12-year old was a hood rat waving a gun around like a fucking moron.  Watch the video, dipshit.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Yes, ever since your president green lighted name-calling, I have thoroughly enjoyed the new rules.
> 
> Maybe you should work with the police to make sure they stop killing women sleeping in their own beds. Or dudes eating ice cream on their own couch. Or twelve year olds eating a bag of chips that “looked like a gun”.


Ever since your boy Oblamy told black criminals they're victims, they've been killing each other 2,500 times per year.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Yes, ever since your president green lighted name-calling, I have thoroughly enjoyed the new rules.
> 
> Maybe you should work with the police to make sure they stop killing women sleeping in their own beds. Or dudes eating ice cream on their own couch. Or twelve year olds eating a bag of chips that “looked like a gun”.


What, no skittles?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

‘Hero Status’: Brett Favre Compares Colin Kaepernick To Fallen Soldier Pat Tillman | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> ‘Hero Status’: Brett Favre Compares Colin Kaepernick To Fallen Soldier Pat Tillman | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, in fairness to Interception Brett's IQ... he did send dick picks to women other than his wife.  And that's not when he's receiving welfare funds.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> No one wants to be a victim of crime.  It would be nice if the “system” worked for my community the same way it does for yours.
> 
> The police have violated the trust of my community and no one is going to put their family in danger by cooperating with their investigation.  However, if there were community police that are members of the community and have rapport the cops would get the news before God.
> 
> But nah, let’s put the po’s po’s in the hood with the “FUCKERY” and act surprised when folks don’t trust them.  GTFOH


I see what you mean now, Dre.  I see where the system failed these poor black men.  They don't know how to behave and, I'm sure, dindu nuffins.  Nobody told them it was "wrong" to violently attack innocent people.  You think God will help police catch these poor boys, that could easily be Obama's sons, and save them before a bad white cop takes away their civil rights?









						SEE IT: Crazed suspect kicks cop onto Harlem subway tracks as he’s placed under arrest
					

A police officer patrolling a Harlem subway station survived a cop’s worst nightmare Friday when she was kicked onto the tracks during an early-morning arrest of a suspected fare beater.




					www.nydailynews.com
				

















						CBS New York - Breaking News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of NY
					

Latest breaking news from New York City.




					newyork.cbslocal.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7810


Read the names, Dre... looks like "the system" continues to fail your people.  Who should we blame?  Trump or white cops?









						60 Shot, 9 Fatally, So Far this Weekend in Chicago
					

Nine people have been killed, four of them minors, and 51 others have been wounded in shootings across Chicago so far this weekend. A 13-year-old girl was killed and two other teens were wounded Saturday night in Austin on the West Side. The girl was inside a home about 8:30 p.m. in the 1000...




					www.nbcchicago.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Who’s lazy?
> View attachment 7812


Hey, Rainbow Warrior, is it racist to post this?  Jasean, Mekay, Almos, etc.  Sounds like a bunch of crazy white people, right?









						60 Shot, 9 Fatally, So Far this Weekend in Chicago
					

Nine people have been killed, four of them minors, and 51 others have been wounded in shootings across Chicago so far this weekend. A 13-year-old girl was killed and two other teens were wounded Saturday night in Austin on the West Side. The girl was inside a home about 8:30 p.m. in the 1000...




					www.nbcchicago.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

Damned white people... you know it's true.  Anytime there's no description of the shooters... whitey's at it again.









						11 people shot, 1 person dead in overnight shooting spree
					

Eleven people have been shot and one person has been killed in an overnight shooting in Minneapolis.  The incident began on Sunday morning at 12:37 a.m. when multiple calls were made to the emergency services regarding numerous people being shot on the 2900 block of Hennepin Avenue South.  The...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Damned white people... you know it's true.  Anytime there's no description of the shooters... whitey's at it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274827894561308676


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

Will Tayvonne's black life matter to LeBron or Kanye?  He WAS killed on a basketball court.  I don't even remember this making the news when it happened.  No protest?









						Quadruple shooting kills 2 teens as they were gunned down playing basketball
					

It is unclear what motivated the attack or if any of the teens knew the assailants




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Will Tayvonne's black life matter to LeBron or Kanye?  He WAS killed on a basketball court.  Will Al Sharpton speak at his funeral?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one’s even better... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274772592746848256


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This one’s even better...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274772592746848256


Great deflection.  Black Lives NOT Mattering all over the place and you post a video of Trump.  Very compelling argument.  Moron.  

It's okay... I'd run and hide, too, if I was you and Dre.  I'm exhausted from making you buffoons look pathetic.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Great deflection.  Black Lives NOT Mattering all over the place and you post a video of Trump.  Very compelling argument.  Moron.
> 
> It's okay... I'd run and hide, too, if I was you and Dre.  I'm exhausted from making you buffoons look pathetic.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274495280348639233
The Wiggles also...


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274495280348639233
> The Wiggles also...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274859015793774597


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274859015793774597




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274802232009953280


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274802232009953280


The one arm water drinking challenge. So hard. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274784890299580420


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 21, 2020)

'Cancel culture' gets hilariously mocked over Yale's connection to infamous slave trader
					

Taking cancel culture to its obvious conclusion




					www.theblaze.com


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Damned white people... you know it's true.  Anytime there's no description of the shooters... whitey's at it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This white privileged Karen trash killed twice as many people.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 21, 2020)

The PWT is pretty upset about their - confederate traitor - flag being disrespected. 









						NASCAR says noose found in Wallace's garage
					

NASCAR is investigating and will reportedly work with law enforcement after a noose was found in the garage of Bubba Wallace, the Cup series' only black driver, on Sunday at Talladega.




					www.espn.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274495280348639233
> The Wiggles also...


Not during a pandemic, they didn't.  It's okay... I understand you're limited for content.  Just as long as you pretend my posts don't destroy you.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This white privileged Karen trash killed twice as many people.  View attachment 7819


Do you even know her name?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The PWT is pretty upset about their - confederate traitor - flag being disrespected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, 'Juicy' Smollett 2.0, right?  Hey, how come we haven't heard another word about the hanging black duo?  Why hasn't the media fallen all over itself to tell us they were both suicides?  Political agenda, perhaps?  Shouldn't you be making demands like the rest of the morons?









						Family of Black Man Found Hanging Says Death Was by Suicide (Published 2020)
					

Malcolm Harsch was one of two black men whose bodies were found hanging from trees in California cities in recent weeks.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 21, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The one arm water drinking challenge. So hard.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274784890299580420


I agree.  Let's do the "can blacks NOT kill each other 7 times in a single day?" challenge.  I gave up on the "accountability" challenge.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 22, 2020)

Former NFL Star Blasts NFL Courting Kaepernick: ‘We’re Looking At Affirmative Action For A Marxist’ | The Daily Wire
					






					www.dailywire.com


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Yeah, 'Juicy' Smollett 2.0, right?  Hey, how come we haven't heard another word about the hanging black duo?  Why hasn't the media fallen all over itself to tell us they were both suicides?  Political agenda, perhaps?  Shouldn't you be making demands like the rest of the morons?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Racist.  The guy you’re accusing of making up the allegation wasn’t even there. It was one of “your kjnd” who reported it.  But we know you always blame black people, so no one is surprised. 

 Check out the racist of the day (other than you).  Also a cop killer.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Racist.  The guy you’re accusing of making up the allegation wasn’t even there. It was one of “your kjnd” who reported it.  But we know you always blame black people, so no one is surprised.
> 
> Check out the racist of the day (other than you).  Also a cop killer.
> View attachment 7822


Check out this “Jussie” (aka Karen) making a false police report about a fake crime by a minority.









						California ‘Karen’ apologizes to Filipino man for calling cops over his chalk art
					

A California “Karen” who called the cops on a Filipino man stenciling “BLACK LIVES MATTER” in chalk on his own property said Sunday that she is “deeply sorry” fo…




					nypost.com


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Check out this “Jussie” (aka Karen) making a false police report about a fake crime by a minority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another Jussie Karen making a false race based police report claiming she was assaulted by a minority. 









						White Woman Who Called Police On Black Bird-Watcher In Central Park Has Been Fired
					

A black man says he asked a white woman in Central Park to leash her dog. In his video, which has gone viral, she tells 911 operators that an "African American" man is threatening her and her dog.




					www.npr.org


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Another Jussie Karen making a false race based police report claiming she was assaulted by a minority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey check out Jussie/Karen calling the cops in a black guy pastor for “breaking into” his church and falsely accusing the reverend of pointing a gun at her.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Hey check out Jussie/Karen calling the cops in a black guy pastor for “breaking into” his church and falsely accusing the reverend of pointing a gun at her.


This Jussie Karen is also a Piggie! Falsely alleged that a fake big black scary man shot her, but was saved by her bullet proof vest.









						Ex-Jackson cop who lied about getting shot found guilty on all counts
					

UPDATEMONROE COUNTY, Ga. -- Former Jackson Police Officer Sherry Hall found guilty on all 11 counts after a Monroe County jury liberation Thursday. Jurors deliberated for roughly an hour.---MONROE COUNTY, Ga. -- Former Jackson police officer Sherry Hall ap




					wgxa.tv


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This Jussie Karen is also a Piggie! Falsely alleged that a fake big black scary man shot her, but was saved by her bullet proof vest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right, Just like Van Jones said.  Its not the kkk we need to worry about, its the white liberal karens.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This Jussie Karen is also a Piggie! Falsely alleged that a fake big black scary man shot her, but was saved by her bullet proof vest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jussie Karen Susan Smith murdered her sons and
blamed a fake black dude.

What a coincidence! Jussie Karen Charles Stuart murdered his preggers wife for the insurance money and blamed the exact same person - Mr. Fake Black Guy!

OMG. Jussie Karen and RNC representative Ashley Todd claimed she was mugged by a fake big black guy who was also an Obama operative. She claimed her fake assailant carved a B on her face to punish her for being a republican, but was so f**king stupid like most republicans that she didn’t understand how mirrors work and ended up carving it into herself backwards!

Jussie/Karen/Piggie wife Maria Daly falsely claims BLM burgled and vandalized her house.

Wow. Jussie Karens Walker Daugherty and Edwin Roberts actually shot each other to stage a fake attack by fake immigrants. Super (stupid) Jussies!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Racist.  The guy you’re accusing of making up the allegation wasn’t even there. It was one of “your kjnd” who reported it.  But we know you always blame black people, so no one is surprised.
> 
> Check out the racist of the day (other than you).  Also a cop killer.
> View attachment 7822


His family said it was suicide.  Sorry... no money, rioting or sympathy for you on this one.  Keep on hanging... need to keep the ball rolling.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Jussie Karen Susan Smith murdered her sons and
> blamed a fake black dude.
> 
> What a coincidence! Jussie Karen Charles Stuart murdered his preggers wife for the insurance money and blamed the exact same person - Mr. Fake Black Guy!
> ...


I can’t get enough of Jussie/Karen/RNC rep Ashley Todd, so I figured I’d include her photo. Mirrors show mirror-images?!? No way!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Another Jussie Karen making a false race based police report claiming she was assaulted by a minority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, where is the name "Jussie" from?  Baby daddy could be "Justin" or it could be "Jessie" so we just combine the two?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Jussie Karen Susan Smith murdered her sons and
> blamed a fake black dude.
> 
> What a coincidence! Jussie Karen Charles Stuart murdered his preggers wife for the insurance money and blamed the exact same person - Mr. Fake Black Guy!
> ...


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I can’t get enough of Jussie/Karen/RNC rep Ashley Todd, so I figured I’d include her photo. Mirrors show mirror-images?!? No way!
> 
> View attachment 7824


Why are you replying to yourself?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Nice to see Juneteenth get a proper sendoff by the hoodies.  No physical description of shooters, but you-know-who all over the video.









						2 dead, 7 shot, 5 hit fleeing scene of Charlotte Juneteenth celebration
					

The shooting happened at an impromptu block party in Charlotte that was a continuation of Juneteenth celebrations, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Deputy Chief Gerald Smith said at a media briefing Monday.




					www.wral.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Racist.  The guy you’re accusing of making up the allegation wasn’t even there. It was one of “your kjnd” who reported it.  But we know you always blame black people, so no one is surprised.
> 
> Check out the racist of the day (other than you).  Also a cop killer.
> View attachment 7822


Hey @outlaw, I think his name is Bocephus.  But his friends call him Bo; so you CAN call him Bo too.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Hey @outlaw, I think his name is Bocephus.  But his friends call him Bo; so you CAN call him Bo too.


We won't be doing a parade for him, Dre.  White people don't make heroes out of criminals.  In fact, no other race does.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> We won't be doing a parade for him, Dre.  White people don't make heroes out of criminals.  In fact, no other race does.


GTFOH!  Have you not seen all of the statues coming down.  White silence is violence!


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 22, 2020)

[QUOTE="MakeAPlay, post: 335894, member: 111"
White people commit by far the most crimes in America.  Keep on with that poor white trash narrative.  You are exposing your poor upbringing.
[/QUOTE]
Statistics report that 96% of all murders are by males, 1% by females and 3% unknown gender.  Of the 3%, based on the 96% overall, at least 2% are probably male and 1% maybe female.  That means 98% of all murders are by males.  Does anyone see a pattern? Also, many of the murders by females are against males who have abused them. Where do you see the pattern?  Maybe we need early intervention and education of young males to help reduce the overall murder rate. That might be a good objective for everyone.   What can we all do to recognize those children and young teens who have anger issues?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> GTFOH!  Have you not seen all of the statues coming down.  White silence is violence!


You mean the statues that have been up for centuries and NOW are a problem?  I watched COPS come down, after 30-years, because it shows black folks too honestly for the politically correct.  Silence is violence?  Listen, when black people start owning their own violence, instead of blaming white people for everything, there will be silence.  Until then, 90% of America knows what the truth is.  ZERO accountability means ZERO respect.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Hey, where is the name "Jussie" from?  Baby daddy could be "Justin" or it could be "Jessie" so we just combine the two?


Care to explain Jaxxon? Can’t even spell the name of the capital of the most the most racist state in America right. 

And speaking of Ashley, how ’bout Ashleigh, Ashli, Ashlii, Aschleigh, Ashlea, Ashely, Asheli, Ashleyn, Ashlyn, Ashlin, Asher, Ascher, and Ashcrack?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Care to explain Jaxxon? Can’t even spell the name of the capital of the most the most racist state in America right.
> 
> And speaking of Ashley, how ’bout Ashleigh, Ashli, Ashlii, Aschleigh, Ashlea, Ashely, Asheli, Ashleyn, Ashlyn, Ashlin, Asher, Ascher, and Ashcrack?


What are you babbling about now?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> We won't be doing a parade for him, Dre.  White people don't make heroes out of criminals.  In fact, no other race does.


You mean white people don’t make heroes out of criminals unless they’re racist, white supremacist murderous traitors, in which case they get statues.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You mean white people don’t make heroes out of criminals unless they’re racist, white supremacist murderous traitors, in which case they get statues.


Are all your profiles hurt or just THIS one?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Hey, sphincter boy, how long before you fuck THIS up, too?  Is that a black chef or a black servant on the plantation?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Are all your profiles hurt or just THIS one?


I just love when folks can’t stop digging the racist rabbit hole. It starts so simply by blaming black people for things like looting or murdering. When it turns out that it was a white dude who murdered the bay area cops, vandalized the Minneapolis businesses, and burned down a Georgia Wendy’s, they just keep doubling down. It’s a black women’s fault that white cops murdered her in her sleep because she is two people removed from someone who bought drugs months earlier. A black Nascar driver is making up a story about a noose when it was actually a white dude who made the complaint. Black people give their kids ridiculous names, unlike PWT who name their kids Jaxxon, Kash, Barron and who think you can slap ley, leigh, li, lee, lii. lin, lyn, and lynn onto the end of anything. What the f**k is Paytlyn?


They get so wrapped up with blaming black people for everything that, before you know it, they’re defending white supremacists and murderers because they just can’t stop.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I just love when folks can’t stop digging the racist rabbit hole. It starts so simply by blaming black people for things like looting or murdering. When it turns out that it was a white dude who murdered the bay area cops, vandalized the Minneapolis businesses, and burned down a Georgia Wendy’s, they just keep doubling down. It’s a black women’s fault that white cops murdered her in her sleep because she is two people removed from someone who bought drugs months earlier. A black Nascar driver is making up a story about a noose when it was actually a white dude who made the complaint. Black people give their kids ridiculous names, unlike PWT who name their kids Jaxxon, Kash, Barron and who think you can slap ley, leigh, li, lee, lii. lin, lyn, and lynn onto the end of anything. What the f**k is Paytlyn?
> 
> 
> They get so wrapped up with blaming black people for everything that, before you know it, they’re defending white supremacists and murderers because they just can’t stop.


1.  Black people loot and murder.  So yeah, they'll be included in the blame.
2.  Black people murder cops, vandalize Minneapolis businesses and burned down lots of restaurants... including black owned.
3.  The innocent black woman's drug dealer boyfriend shot at cops first.  That's why she's dead.  Behavior has consequences.
4.  LeBron and Jussie faked racism, too.  What ever happened to the "graffiti" on LeBron's property?  Nothing, right?
5.  Black mothers give their kids ridiculous names based on who the father might be.  They also think it's cool to misspell names and add "Lil".

I don't know anyone named Paytlyn.  Maybe you could ask the father... if she's white, there's a good chance he exists.  The only thing people are blaming blacks for is the inability to take responsibility for anything.  Maybe Dre can come and give us another history lesson on slavery or the Moors.  I can't wait.  Anything to take attention away from OUR lifetimes.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Hey, sphincter boy, how long before you fuck THIS up, too?  Is that a black chef or a black servant on the plantation?
> 
> View attachment 7827


Racists keep saying stupid s**t like this and wonder why people don’t care what they think the flag represents. Keep it up. Teddy Roosevelt is next to come down because you and your friends deserve it. Did you see that Francis Scott Key statue get trashed?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> 1.  Black people loot and murder.  So yeah, they'll be included in the blame.
> 2.  Black people murder cops, vandalize Minneapolis businesses and burned down lots of restaurants... including black owned.
> 3.  The innocent black woman's drug dealer boyfriend shot at cops first.  That's why she's dead.  Behavior has consequences.
> 4.  LeBron and Jussie faked racism, too.  What ever happened to the "graffiti" on LeBron's property?  Nothing, right?
> ...


Junipero Serra.  Toast.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I just love when folks can’t stop digging the racist rabbit hole. It starts so simply by blaming black people for things like looting or murdering. When it turns out that it was a white dude who murdered the bay area cops, vandalized the Minneapolis businesses, and burned down a Georgia Wendy’s, they just keep doubling down. It’s a black women’s fault that white cops murdered her in her sleep because she is two people removed from someone who bought drugs months earlier. A black Nascar driver is making up a story about a noose when it was actually a white dude who made the complaint. Black people give their kids ridiculous names, unlike PWT who name their kids Jaxxon, Kash, Barron and who think you can slap ley, leigh, li, lee, lii. lin, lyn, and lynn onto the end of anything. What the f**k is Paytlyn?
> 
> 
> They get so wrapped up with blaming black people for everything that, before you know it, they’re defending white supremacists and murderers because they just can’t stop.


Did  you see this one, Rainbow Warrior?  This is what happens when you're stupid enough to crawl under a semi truck.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> 1.  Black people loot and murder.  So yeah, they'll be included in the blame.
> 2.  Black people murder cops, vandalize Minneapolis businesses and burned down lots of restaurants... including black owned.
> 3.  The innocent black woman's drug dealer boyfriend shot at cops first.  That's why she's dead.  Behavior has consequences.
> 4.  LeBron and Jussie faked racism, too.  What ever happened to the "graffiti" on LeBron's property?  Nothing, right?
> ...


This is what the British government had to say about my family.  What ya think @outlaw?
* 16, 2016*
*Gibson Family in the Land of the Pink Pearl*




In 1866, Louis Diston Powles (1842-1911), or  L.D.Powles, was appointed Magistrate of the Bahamas Island.  One of his first acts was to tour the island group, after which he had a book published: *Land of the Pink Pearl.*  One of the islands that he visited was Eleuthera where he learned of and wrote about the Gibson brothers.  One of the eight Gibson brothers referenced in the book was my great great grandfather, Richard Gibson.

This is what the book had to say:




> "We reached Savannah Sound early the following morning, and had a walk of a mile from the landing place to the settlement. We had been told that the people of Savannah Sound, who are exclusively engaged in agricultural pursuits, were superior to any on the Eleutheran Shore, and they certainly appeared to be so. This goes a long way to prove that, where colored people have opportunities and a guiding hand to teach them how to use them, they are not slow to take advantage of them. Most of the land here is owned by a family of colored brothers named, Gibson, the grandchildren of a Scotch Planter, who left all his property to his coloured offspring. The Gibson brothers were originally eight in number, but they are now reduced to five. They were all absent but one, and if he is to be taken as a specimen, they must be every much above the average of the Conch, white or black, for not only did he talk intelligently on general topics, but was well posted in European and American politics. But then the brothers Gibson own a three mast schooner, called The Brothers, and trade direct with the States, without allowing the blighting shadow of Nassau to cross their path."


[Source:  Powles, Louis Diston. The Land of the Pink Pearl: or, Recollections of Life in the Bahamas. London: Sampson Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington, Ltd., 1888 (p. 226-227);[Second edition published in Nassau by Media Publishing, Ltd., 1996. (Page 269)]


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Junipero Serra.  Toast.
> 
> View attachment 7831


Everybody is good at something.  For you losers, it's 'violence'.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> This is what the British government had to say about my family.  What ya think @outlaw?
> * 16, 2016*
> *Gibson Family in the Land of the Pink Pearl*
> 
> ...


I knew I could count on a history lesson from you, Dre.

How come you don't want to talk about anything from the last 50 years?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I knew I could count on a history lesson from you, Dre.
> 
> How come you don't want to talk about anything from the last 50 years?


Non-violence actually.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I knew I could count on a history lesson from you, Dre.
> 
> How come you don't want to talk about anything from the last 50 years?


When did Ashley carve a backwards B into her face?  When did Chauvin and his piggie friends murder George Flloyd? When did your piggie friends murder Breonna Taylor? Rayshard Brooks? When did Drew Brees disappoint you? 

Are you going to point to Abraham Lincoln again to prove you aren’t racist? ‘Cuz that’s more than 150 years ago.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I knew I could count on a history lesson from you, Dre.
> 
> How come you don't want to talk about anything from the last 50 years?


I am talking about the present. Why can’t you see the disparity between those in my family that benefit from white privileged and were never slaves vs those that are descendants of slavery and are fighting for equality.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I am talking about the present. Why can’t you see the disparity between those in my family that benefit from white privileged and were never slaves vs those that are descendants of slavery and are fighting for equality.


Equality is there if you take advantage of it.  If you whine, don't value education, don't work hard and act like a hoodlum, things won't go well for you no matter how much melanin is in your skin.  White privilege does not exist.  It's a made up term by underachieving black people.


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Junipero Serra.  Toast.
> 
> View attachment 7831


If you just accept the official histories obtainable at the mission gift shops, Serra and his brothers in brown were not very nice people to the original inhabitants of California.


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Equality is there if you take advantage of it.  If you whine, don't value education, don't work hard and act like a hoodlum, things won't go well for you no matter how much melanin is in your skin.  White privilege does not exist.  It's a made up term by underachieving black people.


Racist.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Non-violence actually.
> 
> View attachment 7833


All I see is 2 unemployed guys begging for black criminals to be respected.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> Racist.


Truth still hurting you?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> If you just accept the official histories obtainable at the mission gift shops, Serra and his brothers in brown were not very nice people to the original inhabitants of California.


Also don’t forget the poor track record that god people have over the entire history of time. Hide your children, that’s for sure.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> All I see is 2 unemployed guys begging for black criminals to be respected.


All I see are 10 unemployed guys begging for white criminals to be respected. White shirt guy worked at a hot dog store making near minimum wage, but is now in hiding. Kap, on the other hand, is employed making millions in sponsorship and public speaking deals.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> All I see are 10 unemployed guys begging for white criminals to be respected. White shirt guy worked at a hot dog store making near minimum wage, but is now in hiding. Kap, on the other hand, is employed making millions in sponsorship and public speaking deals.
> View attachment 7837


Kaeperprick is not employed.  He's doing what every black person dreams of... getting paid to go away.


----------



## outside! (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> If you just accept the official histories obtainable at the mission gift shops, Serra and his brothers in brown were not very nice people to the original inhabitants of California.


After 1849 it got even worse.




__





						When the Great Spirit Died: The Destruction of the California Indians 1850-1860: Secrest, William B: 9781884995408: Amazon.com: Books
					

When the Great Spirit Died: The Destruction of the California Indians 1850-1860 [Secrest, William B] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. When the Great Spirit Died: The Destruction of the California Indians 1850-1860



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Non-violence actually.
> 
> View attachment 7833


Here are Kaepernick's posts in response to the killing of Iranian General Qassem Suleimani - a man directly responsible for the death and maiming of thousands of U.S. military personnel.




Tell me again about how Kaepernick means no disrespect to the U.S. military?  Do you think those U.S. soldiers see themselves as carrying out terrorist attacks against Black and Brown people?  Is that what Barack Obama was doing when he order the attack on Osama bin Laden?  How about all the drone strikes?  Whatever one may think of the United States engagement in foreign conflicts, do you think those soldiers see themselves as the tool for the United States' plundering of the non white world?  Kaepernick sees them that way. 

Simple question - do you agree that the United States military is the tool for the United States' imperial and terroristic plunder of the non white world?

That's Brett Favre's hero in his own words.  Just remember who you are celebrating every time his name crosses your lips or comes out of your keyboard.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 22, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> You mean something like this, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most productive thought on the topic so far.


MacDre said:


> GTFOH!  Have you not seen all of the statues coming down.  White silence is violence!


Silence is violence?  Just because they rhyme doesn’t mean they have the same meaning.  Besides, the videos have convinced most people.  We just have to get out the vote.  

I agree the statues can go.  Put them in museums where you have time and space to put them in context.  Create statues of people we can be proud of.  

But stop the stupid violence.  If you want to create 500 more Trump voters in Pennsylvania, just break into Walmart during a protest.  If you want 5,000 more Trump Voters in Wisconsin, create another “autonomous zone”.  Fox News won’t thank you, but they’ll be all over it.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Equality is there if you take advantage of it.  If you whine, don't value education, don't work hard and act like a hoodlum, things won't go well for you no matter how much melanin is in your skin.  White privilege does not exist.  It's a made up term by underachieving black people.


Bullshit.  Look at my family in the Bahamas.  My cousin wrote the National anthem, my family is represented at all levels of government, and always benefits from foreign investment.  Now, it seems I’m getting rich because Disney wants to build a private Island on the land my white grandpa left me.  
Damn, only if those low life urban hood rats had a legitimate Scottish planter for a grandpa that hated slavery and left them some land.  They’d be good too.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Here are Kaepernick's posts in response to the killing of Iranian General Qassem Suleimani - a man directly responsible for the death and maiming of thousands of U.S. military personnel.
> 
> View attachment 7835
> 
> ...


US Marine Corps Veteran here.  Politicians send troops to die for bullshit all the time.  Hell, we recently saw improper use of military force domestically.  I volunteered to serve because I was wanted to protect the US.  I’m not sure if my service help keep anyone in the US safe.  I do think I helped out by stealing oil though.


----------



## Dof3 (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> US Marine Corps Veteran here.  Politicians send troops to die for bullshit all the time.  Hell, we recently saw improper use of military force domestically.  I volunteered to serve because I was wanted to protect the US.  I’m not sure if my service help keep anyone in the US safe.  I do think I helped out by stealing oil though.


Not responsive to the point.  Do you see your time in the Marines as having been an instrument of the United States' imperial terrorism?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Bullshit.  Look at my family in the Bahamas.  My cousin wrote the National anthem, my family is represented at all levels of government, and always benefits from foreign investment.  Now, it seems I’m getting rich because Disney wants to build a private Island on the land my white grandpa left me.
> Damn, only if those low life urban hood rats had a legitimate Scottish planter for a grandpa that hated slavery and left them some land.  They’d be good too.


Holy shit you've gone off the fucking rails, too.  What are you babbling about now?  I don't care about your family history.  We aren't talking about your family or its history.  We're talking about the year 2020.

... and in 2020, blacks are 13% of the population, commit over 60% of violent crimes and murder each other 7 times per day.  That's the statistic I keep giving you and the statistic you keep running from.  Do you honestly think the urban hood rats are the only ones that didn't inherit wealth?  Goddamn... you're a professional excuse maker, not an attorney.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Holy shit you've gone off the fucking rails, too.  What are you babbling about now?  I don't care about your family history.  We aren't talking about your family or its history.  We're talking about the year 2020.
> 
> ... and in 2020, blacks are 13% of the population, commit over 60% of violent crimes and murder each other 7 times per day.  That's the statistic I keep giving you and the statistic you keep running from.  Do you honestly think the urban hood rats are the only ones that didn't inherit wealth?  Goddamn... you're a professional excuse maker, not an attorney.


Didn’t inherit wealth, culture, opportunity, equality, access to education, access to healthcare etc.  Yep, I think they are the only ones.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Didn’t inherit wealth, culture, opportunity, equality, access to education, access to healthcare etc.  Yep, I think they are the only ones.


Most people don't inherit wealth, and sometimes "culture" isn't very desirable, is it?  However, they DID have access to opportunity, education and healthcare if they didn't fuck it all up by their actions.  Some people think they can do whatever they want and not be held accountable for it.  I believe it's akin to 'play stupid games... win stupid prizes'.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Here are Kaepernick's posts in response to the killing of Iranian General Qassem Suleimani - a man directly responsible for the death and maiming of thousands of U.S. military personnel.
> 
> View attachment 7835
> 
> ...


The flag does not represent the military. That is only the interpretation you give it to rationalize burying your head in the sand that others believe it represents a country that has systematically oppressed black people since its inception, and which still allows police to abuse and even murder black people. 

No one is stopping you from interpreting the flag as a symbol of blood lust militarization. Go for it. Not a single person is complaining when you stand there 
and burst with jingoistic pride as the anthem plays.


All of your anger about such a minor peaceful way to protest is premised on your demand that others interpret the flag as a symbol of what you want it to mean. But the more you whine that people do not share your interpretation, the worse it is going to get. You’re about to get a lot more kneelers. More Francis Scott Key statues are going to come down. Teddy Roosevelt and even George Washington statues are at risk because you and others like you keep burying your head in the sand and keep trying to dictate to them what a stupid piece of cloth means.

It doesn’t matter how many times people answer your question, which has been answered many times already. You ask “questions” that aren’t questions at all. All you’re doing is trying to tell people they either believe what the flag means to you - and only that - or they support terrorists. Too bad for you.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The flag does not represent the military. That is only the interpretation you give it to rationalize burying your head in the sand that others believe it represents a country that has systematically oppressed black people since its inception, and which still allows police to abuse and even murder black people.
> 
> No one is stopping you from interpreting the flag as a symbol of blood lust militarization. Go for it. Not a single person is complaining when you stand there
> and burst with jingoistic pride as the anthem plays.
> ...


Here are the socks that the piece of shit wore.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

Dof3 said:


> Not responsive to the point.  Do you see your time in the Marines as having been an instrument of the United States' imperial terrorism?


Do you see your time whining about kneelers as having been an instrument of the United States’ systemic oppression of minorities from its inception up until the present day?  By failing to respect a person’s legal right to kneel, does that mean you oppose the 1st amendment, just like Adoph Hitler?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Here are the socks that the piece of shit wore.
> 
> View attachment 7840


Oink. Dude is a prophet, as well as a historian.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Do you see your time whining about kneelers as having been an instrument of the United States’ systemic oppression of minorities from its inception up until the present day?  By failing to respect a person’s legal right to kneel, does that mean you oppose the 1st amendment, just like Adoph Hitler?


The systemic oppression exists above the black man's neck.  I don't see any Hispanics crying about oppression.  Do you?  Are they a minority?  How about Asians?  They're a minority.  You see any Native Americans crying about oppression?  Colin chose to kneel at work when he was getting paid to do his job.  BYE COLIN!

I guess producing the lowest SAT scores of any race in America pretty much tells you all you need to know.  25% lower, by the way, than whites.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Oink. Dude is a prophet, as well as a historian.


Well, if he's a historian, he should remember his history was inheriting a 1st place team in Week 10 because the superior, white quarterback got injured.  I guess he should also remember his childhood history of a WHITE family adopting him after his BLACK father abandoned him at birth.

He's a prophet alright... his teachings are as real as God... zero.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Oink. Dude is a prophet, as well as a historian.


This is so your thug, hood rat voice can be heard, right?









						Cleveland business owner receiving threats for cooperating with police after store was looted
					

Colossal Cupcakes owner Kelly Kandah, who hid with her staff as her store was ransacked by looters in May, says she's now receiving threats for cooperating with the police investigation.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Damn... jealousy of the white man just never ends.









						Backlash to Asian American wife in Floyd case reveals disturbing truth
					

Remarks about the Chauvins' interracial marriage come from historical emasculation of Asian men and fetishization of Asian women, experts say.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> The systemic oppression exists above the black man's neck.  I don't see any Hispanics crying about oppression.  Do you?  Are they a minority?  How about Asians?  They're a minority.  You see any Native Americans crying about oppression?


You don't see that?  Why do you suppose the statue of Junipero Serra was attacked?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> This is so your thug, hood rat voice can be heard, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like another Jussie Karen making things up again.  What is it about bakers and bigotry anyway?


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 22, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Most productive thought on the topic so far.


Yes, but who doesn't prefer a profane pissing contest?


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> You don't see that?  Why do you suppose the statue of Junipero Serra was attacked?


People know the police wouldn't do anything?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> People know the police wouldn't do anything?


Maybe they did it because his statue represents a church that has moved on to molesting children after determining after many centuries that murdering and oppressing minorities wasn’t a good look. 

Or does Serra’s statue also represent all the American soldiers who fought and died defending freedom for white Americans? I keep forgetting what all you racists want things to mean.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Maybe they did it because his statue represents a church that has moved on to molesting children after determining after many centuries that murdering and oppressing minorities wasn’t a good look.
> 
> Or does Serra’s statue also represent all the American soldiers who fought and died defending freedom for white Americans? I keep forgetting what all you racists want things to mean.


You do realize both statements can be correct here. How long has that statue been up?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> You don't see that?  Why do you suppose the statue of Junipero Serra was attacked?


Because it's cool to attack everything right now.  Nobody gave a shit about any of this a week ago.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Maybe they did it because his statue represents a church that has moved on to molesting children after determining after many centuries that murdering and oppressing minorities wasn’t a good look.
> 
> Or does Serra’s statue also represent all the American soldiers who fought and died defending freedom for white Americans? I keep forgetting what all you racists want things to mean.


I keep forgetting you losers take the moral high ground by idolizing career criminals that drive while intoxicated, commit multiple felonies and hold guns to the bellies of pregnant black women when they rob them.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Sounds like another Jussie Karen making things up again.  What is it about bakers and bigotry anyway?


Did you watch the video of looters?  Who said she's a bigot?  She's white.  Working white people are a huge threat to those that value 24" rims and gold grills in their mouths.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Do you see your time whining about kneelers as having been an instrument of the United States’ systemic oppression of minorities from its inception up until the present day?  By failing to respect a person’s legal right to kneel, does that mean you oppose the 1st amendment, just like Adoph Hitler?


Where’d you go @Dof3?  In response to your “serious” questions, I have more of my own. How do you feel that your opposition to removing a JSerra statue means you support child molesters? Does your belief that the flag stands for American soldiers include the ones who rape and murder innocent bystanders? Why does the flag only represent the lower level soldiers but not their leaders who concoct false reasons to go to war and misrepresent why they’re sending the soldiers off to die? Are you telling me that the flag only represents soldiers but not police or firefighters? Not the thousands if people murdered on 9/11? Since you don’t give a s**t about them, how do you feel about your support of terrorism?


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Because it's cool to attack everything right now.  Nobody gave a shit about any of this a week ago.


You have already admitted not knowing about it.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Maybe they did it because his statue represents a church that has moved on to molesting children after determining after many centuries that murdering and oppressing minorities wasn’t a good look.
> 
> Or does Serra’s statue also represent all the American soldiers who fought and died defending freedom for white Americans? I keep forgetting what all you racists want things to mean.


My concern is that all the peripheral activities, looting, vandalism, etc. distracts attention from a problem that has a groundswell of support - justice for minorities when it comes to policing. It would be great to see a focus on the nationwide implementation of 8 Can't Wait and the policing model they used in Camden (from the post on CNN). I understand the anger. I'd just like the energy to be directed towards the change that needs to happen.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Oink. Dude is a prophet, as well as a historian.


Here is to wishing you get pulled over soon.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> You have already admitted not knowing about it.


LOL... no, I admitted no such thing.  I simply pointed out you phonies never gave a shit about any of this a week ago.  I ignore it because it's bullshit... but whatever makes you social justice warriors feel better about yourselves.  That sense of accomplishment is probably new to you.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 22, 2020)

Maybe it is time to start realizing millions more Americans may already had/have the virus and were/are asymptomatic.   Orlando Pride out of NWSL tourney.   6 players and 4 staff members tested positive.  









						Orlando Pride withdraw from NWSL Challenge Cup due to COVID-19 cases
					

The Orlando Pride have withdrawn from the NWSL Challenge Cup due to numerous COVID-19 cases among players and staff.




					www.orlandosentinel.com


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> LOL... no, I admitted no such thing.  I simply pointed out you phonies never gave a shit about any of this a week ago.


How do you know that?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> How do you know that?


You remember seeing anybody tearing down and vandalizing statues before the violent hood rat died resisting arrest?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> LOL... no, I admitted no such thing.  I simply pointed out you phonies never gave a shit about any of this a week ago.  I ignore it because it's bullshit... but whatever makes you social justice warriors feel better about yourselves.  That sense of accomplishment is probably new to you.


I’ve been making your kind pay dearly for more than 20 years.


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

espola said:


> How do you know that?


Here's a story I wrote some time ago, based on what my brother-in-law told me about the Abnaki side of his family.

Hunting story

I got a call they might be here today.  I parked the Fish and Game truck behind the hedge of lilacs where the old farmhouse used to sit, across the road from a gentle bank to the river, wider here where the current slowed as it approached the lake.

Soon Joe’s truck stopped on the bank.  I watched Ray and Joe and Ella as they pulled a  rowboat from the back of the truck down to the water.  Joe and Ella went back for the baskets and buckets and cushions and oars and Ella’s fishing gear. They got in and Ray pushed them off.  With Joe rowing and Ella dragging a lure they were soon on the other side, even after stopping for Ella to net a big one, and then they were into the woods with the buckets.

I watched as Ray carried the canoe down to the water, and then got the paddles and a fishing pole from the truck.  He paddled out into the river near where some ducks were feeding.  He tossed out handfuls of something that drew in the ducks, then scooped a couple of them up with his fishing net if they got close while he was fishing,  He soon had four fat ducks and a couple of fish.

He was gutting the fish on the tailgate when I drove across the road and parked the Warden truck in front of Joe’s truck.  “Nice fish there.Good size - I don’t even have to measure.  You’re not over limit.  You got a license?”

“Don’t need one here.  This is our land.”

“You one of the Indians?  I’ve heard about you.  Look, I’m not the one to decide this, but my job is to enforce the fish and game laws.  Down here, you need a fishing license and a hunting license.  And this is a Federal Game Preserve, so you can’t hunt here anyway.”

“My grandfather sent back the check.”

“What does that mean?”

“My fathers have lived here where the river comes to the lake since before the whites came and told us we could live here.  When the plagues came, many died, and some went north to live with the French Peres. The Peres offered them a cross and a new name.  They took the cross and the names so the children could eat and stay warm.”

“Then the wars came.  The English drove out the French soldiers but the French farmers and Peres stayed.  When the fighting was done, some of our fathers came back to live here on our land by the river.  When the American line was cut through the woods, we were divided.  My great-grandfather became an American, his brother an Englishman whose sons became Canadians.”

“I was born here on my grandfather’s farm when I surprised my mother by coming too soon  They say that is why  the Americans say I am an American, and the Canadians say I am Canadian.”

“When my grandfather got old and could not work much any more, he went to live with his cousins in their house in Canada.  They got some food and money from the Queen, so life was easier there for an old man.  He rented his farm here to a Frenchman down the road who had too many cows.  Every year when the berries were ready, we came here to our land to gather and hunt and fish and collect the rent.  We were like the Indians in the movies then - we lived in a tent on our own land outside the white man’s house.”

“When the Federals came to buy land for the Preserve, they bought all the land on the river up to the line and sent my grandfather a check.  It was more than many years rent, but we could not hunt or fish or gather here any more.  Grandfather sent the check back with a letter written by his son in English after listening to him speak our language and a letter in French from Pere Francois.  We never gave up the land.  There is no more Frenchman farmer to pay us rent, but we still come to hunt and fish and gather foods.”

“I don’t know about that, but I will have to give you a ticket for the fishing with no license, and the Federal Game Wardens will want to know about those ducks.  I saw you grab those ducks from the canoe. You are supposed to use a shotgun with approved ammo.”

“It’s easy when they are not flying.  And shotgun shells cost money.”

“Jesus…”

“We gather from our land for our family food that The Queen cannot give us.”

“Still, you will have to sign this ticket. It’s not an admission of crime.  It’s a promise to appear in court within thirty days and talk to a judge.”

“But I will be in Canada again tomorrow until next year.  I would be lying to you.”

“If you don’t sign I will have to take you to the jail in town where you will probably spend the night. To talk to the judge in the morning.”

We heard the oars being put back in the boat across the river.

Ella called out.  “We filled our baskets already - butternuts and blueberries and blackberries.  Nobody picks here any more?”

Ray spoke to me.  “My sister and her husband.  They live here south of the line.”

As Joe rowed back across, Ella cast out a lure and soon had a big fish in the boat.

“Excuse me ma’am.  Do you have a license?”

She looked at me as if she hadn’t noticed me before and said: “Don’t need one here.  This is our land.”


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I’ve been making your kind pay dearly for more than 20 years.


You haven't done jack shit.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 22, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> My concern is that all the peripheral activities, looting, vandalism, etc. distracts attention from a problem that has a groundswell of support - justice for minorities when it comes to policing. It would be great to see a focus on the nationwide implementation of 8 Can't Wait and the policing model they used in Camden (from the post on CNN). I understand the anger. I'd just like the energy to be directed towards the change that needs to happen.


8 can’t wait seems to be a mixed bag.  Ban on chokeholds and mandatory reporting are clearly necessary.

Defunding and shifting the money to housing programs would just throw away money that we need for rebuilding and reforming departments.

Why is it throwing money away?  Because subsidies don’t work when you also restrict supply.  Not just for housing, but for anything.  The entire subsidy just goes to whoever controls the existing supply.  So, as long as urban areas restrict the supply of housing, your housing subsidy will go 100% to landlords.  Congrats.  Hope you feel successful as you wait for the police to show up while your landlord shops for a bigger place in Malibu.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Seems to me the IMMEDIATE and FREE solution is explaining to black criminals that refusal to comply is a bad idea.  Everyone else seems to get it.

I'm still waiting for that list of innocent black men being killed by police.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 22, 2020)

Gosh, all the bigots here have distracted from the purpose of this USWNT thread.  In an effort to bring it back to its real purpose, HAPPY PRIDE MONTH EVERYONE!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Gosh, all the bigots here have distracted from the purpose of this USWNT thread.  In an effort to bring it back to its real purpose, HAPPY PRIDE MONTH EVERYONE!
> 
> View attachment 7842


Happy rainbow month to all you attention whore fruity pebbles.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 22, 2020)

dad4 said:


> 8 can’t wait seems to be a mixed bag.  Ban on chokeholds and mandatory reporting are clearly necessary.
> 
> Defunding and shifting the money to housing programs would just throw away money that we need for rebuilding and reforming departments.
> 
> Why is it throwing money away?  Because subsidies don’t work when you also restrict supply.  Not just for housing, but for anything.  The entire subsidy just goes to whoever controls the existing supply.  So, as long as urban areas restrict the supply of housing, your housing subsidy will go 100% to landlords.  Congrats.  Hope you feel successful as you wait for the police to show up while your landlord shops for a bigger place in Malibu.


I'd also say that policy change such as "8 Can't Wait" doesn't get to the root of the problem - a disconnection between the police and the community. I have to believe much of the improvement seen in Camden was due to the open dialogue that was created.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Goddamned white people!









						At least 106 people shot, 14 fatally, in Chicago weekend violence
					

At least 106 people were shot in Chicago, 14 of them fatally, from midafternoon Friday through early Monday, according to authorities and Tribune data.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Is this liberal pussy still on his 3 month hidin... uh, "vacation"?









						Megan Fox fans call out Jimmy Kimmel, Michael Bay after old interview goes viral: 'Everybody failed Megan'
					

The mistreatment of Megan Fox by the media and by Hollywood takes off in viral thread.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

No, from the start BLM was about making it acceptable for the "oppressed" to be criminals, resist arrest and still get sympathy and money.









						From the start, Black Lives Matter has been about LGBTQ lives
					

From the start, the founders of Black Lives Matter have always put LGBTQ voices at the center of the conversation.  The movement was founded by three Black women, Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi, two of whom identify as queer.  Since then, many of the largest Black Lives Matter...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

Maybe a bad idea putting "BLM" on the back of player's jerseys.  Don't assume everyone supports the bullshit propaganda.









						‘Absolutely pathetic’ - Outrage as 'White Lives Matter' plane flies over Man City-Burnley match
					

Amid ongoing displays for racial equality, the banner was displayed above the Etihad on Monday




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

LMAO!









						Amazon workers in Chicago are reportedly outraged after they were provided chicken and waffles to celebrate Juneteenth
					

Amazon employees said in an online group that the meal was a "racist form of celebration," CNBC reports.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 22, 2020)

So sad... if Oblamy had a son.









						2 Lawyers Of Color Face 45-Year Sentences — For Vandalism
					

Trump-appointed judges rescinded Colinford Mattis and Urooj Rahman's initial release on bond. Their next bail hearing is Tuesday.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 22, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Junipero Serra.  Toast.
> 
> View attachment 7831


So, will J Serra rename their school now?


----------



## espola (Jun 22, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> So, will J Serra rename their school now?


I think they will consider the result of that change to their bottom line first.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)

Racist of the day is the treasonous Albert Pike, whose statue in D.C. was recently pulled down and set on fire. This clown was such a traitorous POS that he treasoned BOTH sides, first the Union because he was a racist s**tbag, and then the confederacy because he was chickens**t in addition to being a racist. Not much has changed with you people.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Racist of the day is the treasonous Albert Pike, whose statue in D.C. was recently pulled down and set on fire. This clown was such a traitorous POS that he treasoned BOTH sides, first the Union because he was a racist s**tbag, and then the confederacy because he was chickens**t in addition to being a racist. Not much has changed with you people.
> 
> View attachment 7851


Who is "you people", you angry little fruit loop?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Who is "you people", you angry little fruit loop?


Feeling guilty there pal?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Feeling guilty there pal?


What would I feel guilty about?  I'm white.  White people only kill blacks 10% as often as blacks murder blacks.  Speaking of, why do you keep hiding from that fact?  Think about it, Dre, blacks murder each other 7 times per day.  50 times per week.  2,500 times per year.  But cops and whites only account for about 250 per year.  I'd say cops aren't the problem... black people are.

What do you have to say about that?


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL, Mac Dre, Outlaw and Sheriff Joe, Y'all have highjacked this USWNT thread for 3 days now! Please take the fight/opinion into your own thread! Love the entertainment but come on and let's be a little respectful. Thanks!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> EOTL, Mac Dre, Outlaw and Sheriff Joe, Y'all have highjacked this USWNT thread for 3 days now! Please take the fight/opinion into your own thread! Love the entertainment but come on and let's be a little respectful. Thanks!


I'm just posting facts in response to others, GTB.  What did you want to talk about with the WNT?  How about the difficult decisions our current coach has of transitioning in new players when figureheads like Rapinoe and Lloyd continue to perform?  How about the difficult decision of what to do with Alex Morgan when she returns?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

How about the fact that Ally Long, who used to be so attractive, is starting to look like the Elephant Man with all the botox?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> EOTL, Mac Dre, Outlaw and Sheriff Joe, Y'all have highjacked this USWNT thread for 3 days now! Please take the fight/opinion into your own thread! Love the entertainment but come on and let's be a little respectful. Thanks!


Will do. Go USWNT!


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> How about the fact that Ally Long, who used to be so attractive, is starting to look like the Elephant Man with all the botox?
> 
> View attachment 7855 View attachment 7857


Is she good enough to make the team?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Will do. Go USWNT!
> 
> View attachment 7860


Man... you homosexuals sure do love the attention, don't you?  Are you special?  I know you're genetically defective.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Is she good enough to make the team?


Barely.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Man... you homosexuals sure do love the attention, don't you?  Are you special?  I know you're genetically defective.


Are they good enough to make the team?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Are they good enough to make the team?


Some are... though I don't care about their sexuality.  Nobody should care or know about their sexuality... except they're attention whores.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Some are... though I don't care about their sexuality.  Nobody should care or know about their sexuality... except they're attention whores.


Do you think if non-straight players pretended they were straight, while everyone knows that they are not, would get them more or less attention?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Do you think if non-straight players pretended they were straight, while everyone knows that they are not, would get them more or less attention?


I don't think anybody needs to know about an athlete's sexuality.  The only one making a production out of it are gay people.  Rapinoe is on her way out... so she bends over backwards to let the world know she's gay and it's all about her.  Nobody gives a fuck about her, her blue hair or her "look at me" pose.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I don't think anybody needs to know about an athlete's sexuality.  The only one making a production out of it are gay people.  Rapinoe is on her way out... so she bends over backwards to let the world know she's gay and it's all about her.  Nobody gives a fuck about her, her blue hair or her "look at me" pose.


You're the one making the production here.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> You're the one making the production here.


Really?  This bitch right here.  We don't need rainbow numbers.  We don't need rainbow flags at NWSL games and we don't need "Black Lives Matter" on the back of every soccer players fucking jersey.  When black lives matter to blacks, then they'll matter to everyone.  Stop acting like you're special because you're gay.  Nobody gives a fuck.  Play the game and make it about the team... not your pose.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 23, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> EOTL, Mac Dre, Outlaw and Sheriff Joe, Y'all have highjacked this USWNT thread for 3 days now! Please take the fight/opinion into your own thread! Love the entertainment but come on and let's be a little respectful. Thanks!


It was a valiant effort.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Really?  This bitch right here.  We don't need rainbow numbers.  We don't need rainbow flags at NWSL games and we don't need "Black Lives Matter" on the back of every soccer players fucking jersey.  When black lives matter to blacks, then they'll matter to everyone.
> 
> View attachment 7861


Thank you for honestly demonstrating the depths of your thought.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It was a valiant effort.


In fairness, I got us back on track.  Allie Long is still cute... if you like lions.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Thank you for honestly demonstrating the depths of your thought.


Thank you for "just wanting to be accepted like everyone else" but always making it about sexuality.  Hypocrite.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It was a valiant effort.


O started out well with

"What did you want to talk about with the WNT? How about the difficult decisions our current coach has of transitioning in new players when figureheads like Rapinoe and Lloyd continue to perform? How about the difficult decision of what to do with Alex Morgan when she returns?"

and then his next two posts were personal insults of the players.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Thank you for "just wanting to be accepted like everyone else" but always making it about sexuality.  Hypocrite.


So when I asked if those players were good enough to make the team, you took that as a comment on their sexuality?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> O started out well with
> 
> "What did you want to talk about with the WNT? How about the difficult decisions our current coach has of transitioning in new players when figureheads like Rapinoe and Lloyd continue to perform? How about the difficult decision of what to do with Alex Morgan when she returns?"
> 
> and then his next two posts were personal insults of the players.


No, the next post was your alter ego making it about being a dyke.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> No, the next post was your alter ego making it about being a dyke.


Fascinating.

Please continue.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> So when I asked if those players were good enough to make the team, you took that as a comment on their sexuality?


I answered your question.  Allie Long is barely good enough to be on the roster.  Rapinoe is on her way out and Lloyd is still making a case for minutes.  That said, someone like Press is finally doing what she was rarely able to do and that's finish.  Then you've got Morgan coming back, etc.  So when do you move veterans out and bring in new blood?  That was my post.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I answered your question.  Allie Long is barely good enough to be on the roster.  Rapinoe is on her way out and Lloyd is still making a case for minutes.  That said, someone like Press is finally doing what she was rarely able to do and that's finish.  Then you've got Morgan coming back, etc.  So when do you move veterans out and bring in new blood?  That was my post.


Everyone should Like the quoted post in order to encourage Outlaw to continue in his acceptable behavior.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Everyone should Like the quoted post in order to encourage Outlaw to continue in his acceptable behavior.


My kid's favorite player is Krieger.  Doesn't care that she's gay.  I don't care that she's gay.  In fact, being in the middle of a Krieger/Harris sandwich sounds pretty appealing to me.  Thank god it wasn't Naeher... that face is made for softball.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

You have to admit, though, this is pretty odd.  Who knew Krieger would be the female after that Sports Illustrated pictorial?  The softer look is much appreciated.  Much better than when she was more butc... uh, Rapinoe.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)

Go USWNT!  In case you haven’t seen this it, enter to win!  No purchase necessary!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Go USWNT!  In case you haven’t seen this it, enter to win!  No purchase necessary!
> 
> View attachment 7864


If I was able to enter one of them, that really WOULD be a victory.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)




----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> View attachment 7865


Not the most attractive bunch, is it?


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 23, 2020)

so now we have lowered the discussion to classifying the value of professional female athletes based on their attractiveness?  They have strip clubs and porn for that - I am interested more in their athletic ability if I am watching women's sports.  Maybe this is why professional female athletes get paid so little - maybe if they all played nude then the stadium would be filled and they could get a million $ contract like the men's sports.  Most of you are dads with daughters playing the sport.  Are you cool with men looking at your player that way in a few years if they make it into the pros?  I am not.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> so now we have lowered the discussion to classifying the value of professional female athletes based on their attractiveness?  They have strip clubs and porn for that - I am interested more in their athletic ability if I am watching women's sports.  Maybe this is why professional female athletes get paid so little - maybe if they all played nude then the stadium would be filled and they could get a million $ contract like the men's sports.  Most of you are dads with daughters playing the sport.  Are you cool with men looking at your player that way in a few years if they make it into the pros?  I am not.


When was the last time the team played?  Seems like forever.


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 23, 2020)

this weekend - lots happening - starting Saturday morning


----------



## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> so now we have lowered the discussion to classifying the value of professional female athletes based on their attractiveness?  They have strip clubs and porn for that - I am interested more in their athletic ability if I am watching women's sports.  Maybe this is why professional female athletes get paid so little - maybe if they all played nude then the stadium would be filled and they could get a million $ contract like the men's sports.  Most of you are dads with daughters playing the sport.  Are you cool with men looking at your player that way in a few years if they make it into the pros?  I am not.


There are only two people here who do that. Don’t act surprised.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> If I was able to enter one of them, that really WOULD be a victory.


Wood.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> so now we have lowered the discussion to classifying the value of professional female athletes based on their attractiveness?  They have strip clubs and porn for that - I am interested more in their athletic ability if I am watching women's sports.  Maybe this is why professional female athletes get paid so little - maybe if they all played nude then the stadium would be filled and they could get a million $ contract like the men's sports.  Most of you are dads with daughters playing the sport.  Are you cool with men looking at your player that way in a few years if they make it into the pros?  I am not.


Women are not as good as men in almost all professional sports, no need to complicate things. 
Kaepernick tried a mans’ sport and you see how that turned out.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 23, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Not the most attractive bunch, is it?


Their daddy’s must not have thought so.
That is why they are what they are.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> so now we have lowered the discussion to classifying the value of professional female athletes based on their attractiveness?  They have strip clubs and porn for that - I am interested more in their athletic ability if I am watching women's sports.  Maybe this is why professional female athletes get paid so little - maybe if they all played nude then the stadium would be filled and they could get a million $ contract like the men's sports.  Most of you are dads with daughters playing the sport.  Are you cool with men looking at your player that way in a few years if they make it into the pros?  I am not.


Well, if you're interested in their athletic ability, you might advise the drag queen team to stop with all the rainbow bullshit.  They're the ones that can't stop obsessing on their sexuality.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> When was the last time the team played?  Seems like forever.


Soccer or with each other?


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It was a valiant effort.


I tried!!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

Nike Reports Surprise $790 Million Loss, 46% Plunge in North American Sales - Breitbart
					

Revenues tumbled 38 percent to $6.3 billion following huge declines in sales in most of the world.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Nike Reports Surprise $790 Million Loss, 46% Plunge in North American Sales - Breitbart
> 
> 
> Revenues tumbled 38 percent to $6.3 billion following huge declines in sales in most of the world.
> ...


Couldn't happen to a bigger bunch of pandering morons.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 26, 2020)

Sheriff Joe and The Outlaw, how do you feel about the KKK?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Sheriff Joe and The Outlaw, how do you feel about the KKK?


Great question.  I just wanted to clarify for Outlaw & the Sheriff that the KKK hates more than Black people.  KKK also represents the groups hated:
Kikes
Koon’s 
Katholics


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Sheriff Joe and The Outlaw, how do you feel about the KKK?


I don't endorse the KKK in any way.  They're just like BLM... terrorist organizations that promote hate.  If you ignore them, they might just go away.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Great question.  I just wanted to clarify for Outlaw & the Sheriff that the KKK hates more than Black people.  KKK also represents the groups hated:
> Kikes
> Koon’s
> Katholics


I'm 100% for equality.  I'm not in favor of making victims/heroes out of violent, lifelong criminals that resisted arrest.  You are... because you judge guilt and innocence by skin color.  I judge it by rules and laws.  You either respect them or you don't.  How many times have you used "boot licker" in your posts?  That says it all, doesn't it, Dre?  You live by the sword, you can die by it.  Don't respect cops... I don't give a fuck.  But don't come crying when they beat your ass for it.  The world doesn't work that way.  "Equality" you desire also includes "consequences and accountability".  I've heard black people say they're being harassed for smoking weed, driving on an expired tag, expired license, expired insurance, etc.  No, you're not being profiled, you're willingly breaking the law.  You aren't immune to them.  THAT is where the lack of my giving a fuck comes into play.

Companies are pressured to hire minorities now.  Companies are pressured to NOT fire minorities now.  Colleges are pressured to admit minorities now... despite having lower qualifications.  What the fuck more do you want?


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 26, 2020)

BLM is about racial equality.  KKK is about hate.  I can’t comprehend how you can say they are the same.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> BLM is about racial equality.  KKK is about hate.  I can’t comprehend how you can say they are the same.


No it isn't.  BLM is about making a stink out of dead black criminals that died resisting arrest.  BLM doesn't give a flying fuck about black people dying.


----------



## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> No it isn't.  BLM is about making a stink out of dead black criminals that died resisting arrest.  BLM doesn't give a flying fuck about black people dying.


BLM is about fighting for equal rights for blacks regardless of those who died were saints or criminals.  BLM does not mean we do not care about black on black violence.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> BLM is about fighting for equal rights for blacks regardless of those who died were saints or criminals.  BLM does not mean we do not care about black on black violence.


Sure it does.  Look at the website.  Why doesn't BLM care about Captain Dorn or Calvin Munerlyn?  Why doesn't BLM care about other black people killed in the riots?  Why doesn't BLM care about all the black people that died in Chicago last weekend?

And please don't tell me it's because those black killers are prosecuted.  I've done the research.  Only about 20% of black on black murders are solved.  My guess is because, with about 50 per week, there's too many to solve.  So yeah... go ahead and defund police.  That should help.

C'mon, are you serious with that?  When was the last time black people had a protest to stop the killing of each other?  Ever?


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Sure it does.  Look at the website.  Why doesn't BLM care about Captain Dorn or Calvin Munerlyn?  Why doesn't BLM care about other black people killed in the riots?  Why doesn't BLM care about all the black people that died in Chicago last weekend?
> 
> And please don't tell me it's because those black killers are prosecuted.  I've done the research.  Only about 20% of black on black murders are solved.  My guess is because, with about 50 per week, there's too many to solve.  So yeah... go ahead and defund police.  That should help.
> 
> C'mon, are you serious with that?  When was the last time black people had a protest to stop the killing of each other?  Ever?


If they are not solved, how do they know they are black on black?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Sure it does.  Look at the website.  Why doesn't BLM care about Captain Dorn or Calvin Munerlyn?  Why doesn't BLM care about other black people killed in the riots?  Why doesn't BLM care about all the black people that died in Chicago last weekend?
> 
> And please don't tell me it's because those black killers are prosecuted.  I've done the research.  Only about 20% of black on black murders are solved.  My guess is because, with about 50 per week, there's too many to solve.  So yeah... go ahead and defund police.  That should help.
> 
> C'mon, are you serious with that?  When was the last time black people had a protest to stop the killing of each other?  Ever?


Blacks protesting crime and drugs was a big mistake because it led to the disparity of sentencing between powder cocaine primarily consumed by white folks with money versus much harsher sentences for crack cocaine which was primarily consumed by people of color.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

This guy loved crack and he changed his life and sold pillows.  Coming off crack in the fetal position is gnarly I hear and pillows are all you want.  He had plenty of time staring at the ceiling hoping to fall asleep and he came up with a pillow.  Good for him and he found Jesus


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> If they are not solved, how do they know they are black on black?


Because white people don't go into the hood and kill black people.  In an average year, blacks are only murdered by roughly 250 white people.

Can you just go do your own homework?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Blacks protesting crime and drugs was a big mistake because it led to the disparity of sentencing between powder cocaine primarily consumed by white folks with money versus much harsher sentences for crack cocaine which was primarily consumed by people of color.


Why do you continually tap dance around black on black murders?  Is it because you know I have a valid point?

And for some reason, black people cannot grasp the concept of "priors".  They seem to think the 10th arrest should have no connection to the 1st, 5th and 8th arrest.  Again, not especially bright in a lot of cases.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> This guy loved crack and he changed his life and sold pillows.  Coming off crack in the fetal position is gnarly I hear and pillows are all you want.  He had plenty of time staring at the ceiling hoping to fall asleep and he came up with a pillow.  Good for him and he found Jesus
> 
> View attachment 7944


He didn't find Jesus, Spicoli.  He hit rock bottom and there was nowhere else to go but religion.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> He didn't find Jesus, Spicoli.  He hit rock bottom and there was nowhere else to go but religion.


Have you hit rock bottom Lester?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Have you hit rock bottom Lester?


I don't believe in fairies, Spicoli.  Fine if you want to... doesn't bother me a bit.  I still love you like the little brother I should have killed as a child.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I don't believe in fairies, Spicoli.  Fine if you want to... doesn't bother me a bit.  I still love you like the little brother I should have killed as a child.


Wow, thanks for being honest about killing desires.  You seem all upset about something in your past.  Lighten up a little and take a chill pill.  I know I believed in the YNT fairy tail and that's on me.  I will tell you that Jesus is not a fairy and he loves you 100%.  No strings attached and you dont have to be perfect.  Trying to be better is the way, the truth and the life.  Trust me on this one big bro, Jesus is 100% the real deal and incredible.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Because white people don't go into the hood and kill black people.  In an average year, blacks are only murdered by roughly 250 white people.
> 
> Can you just go do your own homework?


How do you know what white people do?  So are you the spokesperson for white folks now?  Hey brainchild...if the murders are unsolved, how the fuck do you know what happened?  You call Deon?  WTF!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> How do you know what white people do?  So are you the spokesperson for white folks now?  Hey brainchild...if the murders are unsolved, how the fuck do you know what happened?  You call Deon?  WTF!


Oh please... don't tell me a white man walks into a black neighborhood, kills someone and walks out.  Black people only develop amnesia when it's a black on black murder.  Since that happens SEVEN TIMES PER DAY: SEVEN DAYS PER WEEK, I can understand why they go unsolved.

But I know... you're only worried about the black criminals killed by cops because they were stupid criminals that resisted.

C'mon, Dre... let's talk about some of the cases.  Tell me how Tamir Rice was a victim.  Show me how Alton Sterling dindu nuffins.  Remind me how Terence Crutcher was a victim.  Enlighten me with how John Crawford was just being a good boy.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Oh please... don't tell me a white man walks into a black neighborhood, kills someone and walks out.  Black people only develop amnesia when it's a black on black murder.  Since that happens SEVEN TIMES PER DAY: SEVEN DAYS PER WEEK, I can understand why they go unsolved.
> 
> But I know... you're only worried about the black criminals killed by cops because they were stupid criminals that resisted.
> 
> C'mon, Dre... let's talk about some of the cases.  Tell me how Tamir Rice was a victim.  Show me how Alton Sterling dindu nuffins.  Remind me how Terence Crutcher was a victim.  Enlighten me with how John Crawford was just being a good boy.


What happened here buddy?




__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What happened here buddy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, you deflected by posting something completely unrelated.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Sheriff Joe and The Outlaw, how do you feel about the KKK?


Just about the same as you feel about having sex with a woman.


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## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Oh please... don't tell me a white man walks into a black neighborhood, kills someone and walks out.  Black people only develop amnesia when it's a black on black murder.  Since that happens SEVEN TIMES PER DAY: SEVEN DAYS PER WEEK, I can understand why they go unsolved.
> 
> But I know... you're only worried about the black criminals killed by cops because they were stupid criminals that resisted.
> 
> C'mon, Dre... let's talk about some of the cases.  Tell me how Tamir Rice was a victim.  Show me how Alton Sterling dindu nuffins.  Remind me how Terence Crutcher was a victim.  Enlighten me with how John Crawford was just being a good boy.


The video didnt show Floyd doing much resisting.

The only thing I can figure is he said something in the car, and got killed for contempt of cop.

Stupid?  Sure.  Justification for killing a man?   Heck no.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> The video didnt show Floyd doing much resisting.
> 
> The only thing I can figure is he said something in the car, and got killed for contempt of cop.
> 
> Stupid?  Sure.  Justification for killing a man?   Heck no.


Let’s see what Pelosi thinks about George Kirby.








						Pelosi Accidentally Calls George Floyd ‘George Kirby’ During Press Conference
					

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi called George Floyd by the wrong name Friday, just one day after House Democrats passed police reform legislation.




					dailycaller.com


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

God Dam white people.








						Three hours after getting out of jail, North Carolina man fatally shoots girl, 7, in the head while she was eating ice cream
					

The child appears to have been caught in the crossfire of a dispute




					knewz.com


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

Robert Johnson's Big Idea: $14 trillion in slavery reparations to African-Americans
					

Johnson, the first black billionaire in the United States, has put a price tag on the debt America owes to African-Americans at $14 trillion.




					www.foxnews.com
				











						Think white and get serious.
					

As Good as It Gets (1997) clip with quote Think white and get serious.     Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote.     Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share.     Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.




					getyarn.io


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> The video didnt show Floyd doing much resisting.
> 
> The only thing I can figure is he said something in the car, and got killed for contempt of cop.
> 
> Stupid?  Sure.  Justification for killing a man?   Heck no.


You didn't see the right video.  Watch the one where the cop has to pull him out of the car and his partner has to run around the vehicle to assist.  Again... not defending the cop, but Floyd was a piece of shit human being.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 27, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Just about the same as you feel about having sex with a woman.


Don't be a pussy.  Just say that you support the KKK.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Don't be a pussy.  Just say that you support the KKK.


Did you not understand my post?
I assume you are a queer and the thought of using a pussy instead of being one repulses you.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

__





						WATCH: Black Cop Reveals the Reason Racism Exists – and It's Not Because of White People
					

Boom.




					townhall.com


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

Shameless: Minneapolis city council votes to disband police -- but pays $4500 a day for private security
					

Security for we, bupkis for thee.




					hotair.com


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Don't be a pussy.  Just say that you support the KKK.


I notice you didn't respond to the last post in our conversation.  I asked you why BLM makes no effort to recognize people like Calvin Munerlyn and Captain Dorn.  Two black men simply doing their jobs.  Why do you think that is?  Is it because they were murdered by other black people?  Why doesn't BLM care about them?  They have Breonna Taylor all over their page.  Blame cops... but don't blame her boyfriend that was buddies with a drug dealer, used HER address and shot first at police, right?  

Why isn't Oluwatoyin Salau on their page?  She was just protesting.  You know why her name isn't on there?  She was killed by a black man.  BLM doesn't give a shit about her life because there's no money in it.  BLM is absolutely no better than the KKK.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Jun 27, 2020)

Sheriff Joe, do you support the KKK?


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Sheriff Joe, do you support the KKK?


No


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## EOTL (Jun 27, 2020)

Dahlkemper


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## EOTL (Jun 27, 2020)

Thorns & Courage


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## EOTL (Jun 27, 2020)

Utah Royals


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## EOTL (Jun 27, 2020)

Ertz & Short

The un-American anti-kneeler fascists are in for a lot of disappointment.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)




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## MacDre (Jun 27, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 7969


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7970


No wonder Kaepernick is so pissed off.
Mommy and daddy both knew he was going to be a problem.
Sounds like whitey screwed him up.

Kaepernick was born in 1987 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to Heidi Russo, who is white. His birth father, who is African-American (of Ghanaian, Nigerian, and Ivorian ancestry), separated from Russo before Kaepernick was born. Russo placed Kaepernick for adoption with a white couple named Rick and Teresa Kaepernick.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Ertz & Short
> 
> The un-American anti-kneeler fascists are in for a lot of disappointment.
> 
> View attachment 7968


LMAO!  Too bad none of them have done the homework.  Ignorance is bliss... at least it makes everyone feel like they're doing something.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7970


Oh look, Dre!  Another black man that hasn't had a job in 5 years.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> Sheriff Joe, do you support the KKK?


Still running, I see.  Is that all you have?  Asking people if they support the KKK?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

EOTL said:


> DahlkemperView attachment 7964


What is she going to do... ask everyone why they're kneeling for black criminals when they murder each other 7 times per day?  Please...


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

EOTL said:


> UtahView attachment 7967 Royals


Nothing like peer pressure to push a bullshit cause.  LMAO!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

Another BIG weekend for the oppressed.









						Chicago Shootings: 7 Dead, 15 Wounded in Gun Violence Across the City
					

Seven people, including a 1-year-old boy, are dead and at least 12 others have been wounded in shootings across the city of Chicago so far this weekend. At approximately 5:42 p.m. Friday, a 42-year-old man was on the sidewalk in the 200 block of North Leclaire when a person stepped out of an...




					www.nbcchicago.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 28, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Oh look, Dre!  Another black man that hasn't had a job in 5 years.


How do you know the 5 years of unemployment isn’t attributed to his white biological mother and adopted white parents?

Why do folks like you continue to deny the white blood in folks like Obama, Kap, and your Mac ass patna Dre?
Why can’t we roll with the white folks outlaw? White parents and grandparents don’t suffice for admission to the white club?
Is there a committee on whiteness, where I can get my whiteness certified?


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> How do you know the 5 years of unemployment isn’t attributed to his white biological mother and adopted white parents?
> 
> Why do folks like you continue to deny the white blood in folks like Obama, Kap, and your Mac ass patna Dre?
> Why can’t we roll with the white folks outlaw? White parents and grandparents don’t suffice for admission to the white club?
> Is there a committee on whiteness, where I can get my whiteness certified?


Obama was black when he had to be.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> View attachment 7970


Pretty telling, a picture of an American Flag triggers leftists.


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## MacDre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Pretty telling, a picture of an American Flag triggers leftists.


Hey Sheriff,
My uncle Wendell taught me how to drive.  He help me build a 68 Camaro.  I use to race that thing up and down Hwy 58 taking pink slips.  In any event, if I spent substantial time in Danville, VA the capital of the confederacy when it fell, what makes you think I’m a leftist liberal?









						Wendell Scott - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Hey Sheriff,
> My uncle Wendell taught me how to drive.  He help me build a 68 Camaro.  I use to race that thing up and down Hwy 58 taking pink slips.  In any event, if I spent substantial time in Danville, VA the capital of the confederacy when it fell, what makes you think I’m a leftist liberal?
> 
> 
> ...


I like your uncle Wendall a lot.  Be your own boss so no one can boss you around   "That mill is too much like a prison." Reminds me of my days working as a scab for UPS back in my college, poor student life in East LA.  I had the 5am shift and lived in a rough part of Montebello.  Anyway, UPS had a Hub ((with no hugs)) in the city of Vernon.  No one actually lives in the city of Vernon from what I was told, but it's a city.  One morning around 4:30 I went to my car to go to work and I noticed two guys going through my car so I just kept going around the corner by my car port.  I called my shift leader to tell him I will be a few minutes late.  I go to work and all the union guys on strike are yelling at me and calling me all sorts of names. Plus, I was the only white guy on my scabies shift.  Then my shift leader yells at me for being late and then yells at me for four hours as I tried to fill two big brown trucks full of boxes.  It's like the game Tetras but much harder and hot is hell, like hell kind of I bet.  If you have a jerk for a boss like I did, it made the job harder.  After my shift I went to my car and had a flat tire, eggs and coke and more eggs all over my car in the UPS parking lot.  That's how scabs get treated when you break the line.  I quit that day and never went back to UPS.  That place treated people like sh*t!!!  Anyway, be your own bossman if you can.......


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Hey Sheriff,
> My uncle Wendell taught me how to drive.  He help me build a 68 Camaro.  I use to race that thing up and down Hwy 58 taking pink slips.  In any event, if I spent substantial time in Danville, VA the capital of the confederacy when it fell, what makes you think I’m a leftist liberal?
> 
> 
> ...


Just a hunch.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> How do you know the 5 years of unemployment isn’t attributed to his white biological mother and adopted white parents?
> 
> Why do folks like you continue to deny the white blood in folks like Obama, Kap, and your Mac ass patna Dre?
> Why can’t we roll with the white folks outlaw? White parents and grandparents don’t suffice for admission to the white club?
> Is there a committee on whiteness, where I can get my whiteness certified?


Yep... the bruthas are keeping that "respek" in Chicago!









						2 teenage boys shot to death after asking man how tall he was while buying candy
					

Two teenage boys were shot to death after asking the suspect how tall he was when they were buying candy from a store. The incident occurred at approximately 5 p.m. on Saturday June 20 after three teenage boys went to a store in South Chicago to buy some candy and ended up having a brief...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> How do you know the 5 years of unemployment isn’t attributed to his white biological mother and adopted white parents?
> 
> Why do folks like you continue to deny the white blood in folks like Obama, Kap, and your Mac ass patna Dre?
> Why can’t we roll with the white folks outlaw? White parents and grandparents don’t suffice for admission to the white club?
> Is there a committee on whiteness, where I can get my whiteness certified?


The 5 years of unemployment are because he doesn't want to work.  That's his 1/2 black "where the fuck is he" daddy side.  He had job offers... he didn't want them.

You can roll with the whites when you stop blaming everyone else for your bullshit, Dre.  I was giving you white certification.  I was giving you Juris Doctorate certification... until your authenticity came under question after being unable to debate me on all the black victimhood.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> How do you know the 5 years of unemployment isn’t attributed to his white biological mother and adopted white parents?
> 
> Why do folks like you continue to deny the white blood in folks like Obama, Kap, and your Mac ass patna Dre?
> Why can’t we roll with the white folks outlaw? White parents and grandparents don’t suffice for admission to the white club?
> Is there a committee on whiteness, where I can get my whiteness certified?


Dre, here's the deal.  By your own admission, you live in a white neighborhood.  Kaeperprick lived in Los Gatos, when he HAD a job, and now lives in Manhattan when he doesn't.  Even Obama moved to Martha's Vineyard... population 4% black.  

Pretty much says it all... doesn't it?


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Even Obama moved to Martha's Vineyard... population 4% black.


There goes the neighborhood.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

Is it ok to eat white chocolate?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> There goes the neighborhood.
> View attachment 7978


Hide your women, Joe, it's BBC Mike!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Hide your women, Joe, it's BBC Mike!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 28, 2020)

1961, 29% of black homes had no father present, 2019 76%.
What happened?
I am sure racism is a cause but it’s time for a little bit of personal responsibility.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


>


That's one of the funniest goddamned scenes in cinematic history.  I'm sure BLM will find a way to fuck it up... but I've got my copy.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> 1961, 29% of black homes had no father present, 2019 76%.
> What happened?
> I am sure racism is a cause but it’s time for a little bit of personal responsibility.


Trojan put cages and locks on condoms sold in the hood.  Wal Mart is woke... tore the cages down, Joe.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> 1961, 29% of black homes had no father present, 2019 76%.
> What happened?
> I am sure racism is a cause but it’s time for a little bit of personal responsibility.


Exactly.  I agree.  Defund the police.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Exactly.  I agree.  Defund the police.


Interesting, Dre.  Are you watching the BET Awards?  Nothing but black people... but that's not racist or anything.  I did, however, get some incredibly good laughs out of it.  Not much in the way of entertainment or awards... but lots of wound licking and making sure the audience knows that black people are all victims and just misunderstood.  LMAO!









						BET Awards 2020: See who won at the  BET Awards | CNN
					

The BET Awards, which honor Black excellence in entertainment and sports, were presented Sunday.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 28, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Exactly.  I agree.  Defund the police.


Yes!  Defund the police so more blacks can get away with crimes and fewer black on black murders are solved.  It's already at a 20% success rate.


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## Zoro (Jul 21, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> 1961, 29% of black homes had no father present, 2019 76%.
> What happened?
> I am sure racism is a cause but it’s time for a little bit of personal responsibility.


Do soccer dads matter?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 21, 2020)

Zoro said:


> Do soccer dads matter?


I'd say so... except Dre lives in the NorCal east bay and his kid is a goat in Tijuana... schooling and balling.  Personally, I wouldn't want my young kid that far away.  Not sure how you do that.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 21, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I'd say so... except Dre lives in the NorCal east bay and his kid is a goat in Tijuana... schooling and balling.  Personally, I wouldn't want my young kid that far away.  Not sure how you do that.


I know it’s counterintuitive but it’s actually more convenient for us to commute to Tijuana than it is to commute within Norcal for school and activities.  We actually have more family time with school and activities based in TJ because we live by hwy 80 in NorCal and traffic is always bumper to bumper in both directions.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 21, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I know it’s counterintuitive but it’s actually more convenient for us to commute to Tijuana than it is to commute within Norcal for school and activities.  We actually have more family time with school and activities based in TJ because we live by hwy 80 in NorCal and traffic is always bumper to bumper in both directions.


If you say so... I wish you both the best.


----------



## ToonArmy (Sep 6, 2020)

@Ansu Fati see that goal for Spain?


----------



## gotothebushes (Sep 6, 2020)

ToonArmy said:


> @Ansu Fati see that goal for Spain?


Spain? Was there a game I missed?


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Sep 6, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Spain? Was there a game I missed?


UEFA Nations League is on.  France vs. Croatia on Tuesday.  Mbappé had an unbelievable goal vs Sweden yesterday.


----------



## gotothebushes (Sep 6, 2020)

Messi>CR7 said:


> UEFA Nations League is on.  France vs. Croatia on Tuesday.  Mbappé had an unbelievable goal vs Sweden yesterday.


Thanks Messi!


----------



## Soccer43 (Sep 7, 2020)

why is this on the USWNT thread?


----------



## gotothebushes (Sep 8, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> why is this on the USWNT thread?


Thats what confused me.


----------



## ToonArmy (Sep 8, 2020)

it was me my fault I should of made a UEFA Nations League thread


----------



## Soccerhelper (Sep 8, 2020)

ToonArmy said:


> it was me my fault I should of made a UEFA Nations League thread


Stay on topic dumb ass....


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Sep 8, 2020)

ToonArmy said:


> it was me my fault I should of made a UEFA Nations League thread


It’s okay. Your a Geordie. Now give me two Hail Marys and swear to Alan Shearer you will not do this again.


----------



## gotothebushes (Sep 8, 2020)

If you want to watch Women’s English League you can watch games for free. Enjoy!









						The FA Player: Watch live matches, highlights & features for free
					

Sign up to The FA Player to watch coverage of the Barclays FA WSL, FA Women’s Championship, Vitality Women’s FA Cup, Emirates FA Cup, FA Women’s Continental Tyres League Cup and England’s Lionesses




					faplayer.thefa.com


----------



## ToonArmy (Sep 8, 2020)

LASTMAN14 said:


> It’s okay. Your a Geordie. Now give me two Hail Marys and swear to Alan Shearer you will not do this again.


Geordie at heart


----------

