# How can we hold Referees Accountable for letting games get out of control?



## Night Owl (Dec 7, 2016)

I do not know if this has been talked  about already, but more and more I see to much violance in the field and ref' s allowing it!!!

When referring gets out of control letting our boys kill each other until someone gets really hurt, or worse, ref's taking sides and players knowing this.

Question? If my son gets hurt so bad that he cannot play ever again becouse  ref's allowing violant play, are they liable to get fired/sued?


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## timbuck (Dec 7, 2016)

Is the other coach to blame for allowing it?


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## younothat (Dec 7, 2016)

Can be difficult to watch physically demanding play when your player(s) are on the receiving end but ultimately players and coaches are responsible & need to be able to handle and adapt to those situations or any circumstances that come up. 

A coach or a parent can remove or withdraw a team or player if they deem the situation unsafe. 

A referee can take disciplinary actions against players guilty of cautionable and sending off fouls.


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## Night Owl (Dec 8, 2016)

We heard about a high school girl that got injured really bad at a carolina tournamet a week ago, still in the hospital due to a onesided ref not taking disciplinary actions against players and allowing unsafe plays.


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## TangoCity (Dec 8, 2016)

Night Owl said:


> I do not know if this has been talked  about already, but more and more I see to much violance in the field and ref' s allowing it!!!
> 
> When referring gets out of control letting our boys kill each other until someone gets really hurt, or worse, ref's taking sides and players knowing this.
> 
> Question? If my son gets hurt so bad that he cannot play ever again becouse  ref's allowing violant play, are they liable to get fired/sued?


Ref liable?  Probably not.  Fired or reprimanded yeah.  Make sure you have someone video taping every game.  The one if any that might liable is the gaming circuit or whoever has the deepest pockets.  

There is always volleyball.


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## Frank (Dec 8, 2016)

Blaming the ref is like blaming the police for crime. The fault completely lies with the players and coaches when team/players can't play the game and think that it is rugby. Refs have their role but that's not where the blame lies.


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## TangoCity (Dec 9, 2016)

Frank said:


> Blaming the ref is like blaming the police for crime. The fault completely lies with the players and coaches when team/players can't play the game and think that it is rugby. Refs have their role but that's not where the blame lies.


Depends on the situation.


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## sierrasracing (Dec 9, 2016)

Frank said:


> Blaming the ref is like blaming the police for crime. The fault completely lies with the players and coaches when team/players can't play the game and think that it is rugby. Refs have their role but that's not where the blame lies.


I respectfully disagree, I know for a fact that most players test the refs to see how far he will let violent plays go and then it's kind of like bullying: if the refs doesn't say anything on the firsts violent plays, things get worse and can escalate quickly to where both teams will get in to fights and players hurt each other.


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## Frank (Dec 9, 2016)

sierrasracing said:


> I respectfully disagree, I know for a fact that most players test the refs to see how far he will let violent plays go and then it's kind of like bullying: if the refs doesn't say anything on the firsts violent plays, things get worse and can escalate quickly to where both teams will get in to fights and players hurt each other.


I guess I believe in self and coach accountability versus blaming the person who sees them for 90 minutes.


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## GunninGopher (Dec 9, 2016)

Night Owl said:


> I do not know if this has been talked  about already, but more and more I see to much violence in the field and ref' s allowing it!!!


Before I start, I want to point out that there are referee's out there that get in over their head, and everyone has a bad day once and a while. There are thousands of referees in So-Cal. Keep in mind, that the younger your player is and the lower their competition level, the more likely it is that you will encounter a less experienced or lower rated referee.

Maybe you just needed to vent some frustration, and that is OK, we all need to do that sometimes.

You use the phrase "more and more" which indicates that you are noticing a pattern that has changed over a period of time, which I would assume to be be years in this case. Is it possible that you child is getting older and you are not allowing your perception of play to mature with him?

"Violence" is a very strong term when referring how play in being conducted. I'm going to assume we're talking about reckless play, which is sometimes extending to excessive force, and that by saying that referee's are allowing it, you are saying that they are not calling fouls and/or cautioning and sending off players for their actions.



Night Owl said:


> Question? If my son gets hurt so bad that he cannot play ever again because  ref's allowing violent play, are they liable to get fired/sued?


Taking your concerns literally...
"Fired", sure. If you provide evidence that a referee is _allowing _players to endanger an opponent then then you should expect the referee association and competition board to take corrective action. Leagues and referee associations encourage club administrators to provide evidence to support these allegations so that they can remedy these situations.

"Sued". Anyone can claim anything against anyone and that can almost always be followed up with a lawsuit. I'm no attorney, but in order to make a claim, you need to estimate damages and be able to identify which parties are at fault. You then run up against a lot of waivers, statuatory and common law that will work against you.



Night Owl said:


> When referring gets out of control letting our boys kill each other until someone gets really hurt


Please review the following training video on Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct). If anyone is going to say that they have a "better" opinion than the referee about whether play is safe or not, they should be informed about what truly constitutes safe or fair play.

http://www.brainshark.com/ussoccer/vu?pi=zHvzLJTjyz31xyz0

In my limited experience, I've narrowed spectator comments on this subject to 2 basic camps. There is the "let them play!!" people, and the "that's a foul!!" people. Oftentimes they are the same persons, depending on who is doing what at that moment on the field.

We've all heard it, but it bears mentioning again. _Soccer is a contact sport_. Trips, charges, kicks, tackles and other contact is allowed as long as it, in the opinion of the referee, isn't done carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force.



Night Owl said:


> or worse, ref's taking sides and players knowing this.


I think the another way to put it is "He's only calling fouls against us". I believe this opinion is usually caused by spectator bias, not the referee's. To help determine if this is true, record the WHOLE the game and bring it to a competent person who understands the laws of the game and how referee's are instructed to administer them. This us usually going to be an experienced referee. Don't take it to the coach or a guy you know and ask them if the referee is bad. The law book is pretty small and referee's have training on how to interpret and administer them throughout the entire game. Coaches and the guy you know who played in high school (or anywhere else) probably don't have that training. Without both training and knowledge of the entire game in question, important context is lacking.


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## espola (Dec 9, 2016)

Frank said:


> Blaming the ref is like blaming the police for crime. The fault completely lies with the players and coaches when team/players can't play the game and think that it is rugby. Refs have their role but that's not where the blame lies.


Would you say a cop that sees a crime and won't enforce the law is not liable the next time the criminal repeats his act?


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## espola (Dec 9, 2016)

Frank said:


> I guess I believe in self and coach accountability versus blaming the person who sees them for 90 minutes.


You mean the period of time when they are paid to enforce the rules?


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## Night Owl (Dec 9, 2016)

Not all Referees are bad, but I notice this trend of onesided faul calling to get revenge at a coach/ team is highly increasing bluntly. If my son gets a little aggressive, ref will caution & son will be more carefull to play ball. If he does not, he will continuew as far as he can get away with it.....

Accountability for police to try to stop for crime is priority, not turning the other way and letting another person do the crime, be ballanced and fair, protect and serve!!!

Why have Police, Referees? people are so responsable that they will not do a crime, players and coaches will play the game without fauls or get phisical to hurt. 
Aythority figures are there for a reason, if they camnot control a situation, go watch volleyball.

As a parent, we should have someone to talk to so these "Bad Ref's" protect under aged players!!!


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## jrcaesar (Dec 9, 2016)

GunninGopher said:


> I think the another way to put it is "He's only calling fouls against us". I believe this opinion is usually caused by spectator bias, not the referee's.


In games I referee, the times I hear parents saying that are usually times when I could have been calling *more *fouls against their team, but am trying to ensure the game has _some_ positive flow.


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## TangoCity (Dec 9, 2016)

Part of the job of a referee is to keep the game safe and not let it get out of control.  At his/her disposal are a set of tools to manage this.  In this toolbox is the ability to verbally warn players, call fouls and even caution players.  Some of the reckless and even violent conduct goes on behind a referees back.  I have seen players get pinched, slapped, hair pulled, pushed to the ground etc... sometimes when the referee should've been looking and sometimes when the referee was watching other action.  I have even seen parents on the sideline have to go point out to ARs who the dirty players are (and it is obvious) and most of the time they are incredulous to what is going on but once pointed out to them they finally call it.  It is the referee (entire crew)'s job to keep the game under control - to a degree, the safety of the players relies on this.  Yes, there are coaches and parents that encourage rough/dangerous play and kids that are bullies, but a good referee (and crew) can nip this in the bud.


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## jrcaesar (Dec 9, 2016)

One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. So if, as AR, I see something behind the play I "don't like" but doesn't necessarily elevate to a foul, it might be 30 minutes before I have a chance to review this with the referee. This is one way the shenanigans don't get called. Referees need to build how to address this in their pregame discussions, and if means holding up play to share information, it needs to be done. (Which, yes, I will do at a stoppage.)


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## Night Owl (Dec 9, 2016)

I do agree with GunninGopher comment,
 "more and more" as our kids grow, level of play matures right along.


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## outside! (Dec 9, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. So if, as AR, I see something behind the play I "don't like" but doesn't necessarily elevate to a foul, it might be 30 minutes before I have a chance to review this with the referee. This is one way the shenanigans don't get called. Referees need to build how to address this in their pregame discussions, and if means holding up play to share information, it needs to be done. (Which, yes, I will do at a stoppage.)


I've seen a ref crew in Orange County that has wireless headset/microphone setups so they could talk to each other during the game. I don't know how much it helps, but they are an excellent crew and I am always happy to see them at a game.


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## baldref (Dec 9, 2016)

espola said:


> Would you say a cop that sees a crime and won't enforce the law is not liable the next time the criminal repeats his act?


are you actually trying to make that your argument? cops and referees are the same? criminals and youth players are the same?
seriously, that might be the most ridiculous thing you've ever tried to sell. and you've tried to sell some ridiculous shit before....


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## espola (Dec 9, 2016)

baldref said:


> are you actually trying to make that your argument? cops and referees are the same? criminals and youth players are the same?
> seriously, that might be the most ridiculous thing you've ever tried to sell. and you've tried to sell some ridiculous shit before....


It wasn't me that brought up cops.


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## GunninGopher (Dec 9, 2016)

outside! said:


> I've seen a ref crew in Orange County that has wireless headset/microphone setups


There is a crew that works East County San Diego that has one. They are a good crew. Those setups are expensive.

I've seen AYSO use them for mentoring new referee's, too.


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## Just a Parent (Dec 10, 2016)

Night Owl said:


> I do not know if this has been talked  about already, but more and more I see to much violance in the field and ref' s allowing it!!!
> 
> When referring gets out of control letting our boys kill each other until someone gets really hurt, or worse, ref's taking sides and players knowing this.
> 
> Question? If my son gets hurt so bad that he cannot play ever again becouse  ref's allowing violant play, are they liable to get fired/sued?


What do you mean by violent play? It is not up to the referee to allow or not allow anything. His job is to enforce competition rules.


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## Just a Parent (Dec 10, 2016)

espola said:


> Would you say a cop that sees a crime and won't enforce the law is not liable the next time the criminal repeats his act?


How are the criminal's acts the cop's fault?


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## Just a Parent (Dec 10, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. So if, as AR, I see something behind the play I "don't like" but doesn't necessarily elevate to a foul, it might be 30 minutes before I have a chance to review this with the referee. This is one way the shenanigans don't get called. Referees need to build how to address this in their pregame discussions, and if means holding up play to share information, it needs to be done. (Which, yes, I will do at a stoppage.)


This is completely inaccurate. If referees are trained well and are doing their jobs as they should, they would be communicating throughout the game, from the the first to the last minute and they don't have to stop the game to do so.


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## Just a Parent (Dec 10, 2016)

outside! said:


> I've seen a ref crew in Orange County that has wireless headset/microphone setups so they could talk to each other during the game. I don't know how much it helps, but they are an excellent crew and I am always happy to see them at a game.


There are many referees with these electronic gizmos but with or without them it is easy to communicate and stay connected throughout the match.


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## coachrefparent (Dec 10, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. So if, as AR, I see something behind the play I "don't like" but doesn't necessarily elevate to a foul, it might be 30 minutes before I have a chance to review this with the referee. This is one way the shenanigans don't get called. Referees need to build how to address this in their pregame discussions, and if means holding up play to share information, it needs to be done. (Which, yes, I will do at a stoppage.)


One big problem with many referee crews is the lack of "mirroring". If an assistant sees a foul, or other misconduct that the referee can't see (including the AR flag), the OPPOSITE AR should call this to the referee's attention with their flag.

Sadly too many crews fail to mirror, leading to the coaches and crowd yelling at the referee (who is trying to block them out). This also occurs with injuries.


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## Surfref (Dec 10, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. So if, as AR, I see something behind the play I "don't like" but doesn't necessarily elevate to a foul, it might be 30 minutes before I have a chance to review this with the referee. This is one way the shenanigans don't get called. Referees need to build how to address this in their pregame discussions, and if means holding up play to share information, it needs to be done. (Which, yes, I will do at a stoppage.)


There is a way to let the referee and player know they are pushing the limits and in danger of having a foul called on them before the halftime break.  All you have to do is verbally, loud enough for the CR to hear, tell the player (use their jersey color and number) to knock off whatever they are doing.  The CR and the player will hear.  This will clue-in the CR.  As long as the CR is not a complete moron they can keep an eye on that player.  This should be discussed in the pregame.


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## Just a Parent (Dec 11, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> One big problem with many referee crews is the lack of "mirroring". If an assistant sees a foul, or other misconduct that the referee can't see (including the AR flag), the OPPOSITE AR should call this to the referee's attention with their flag.
> 
> Sadly too many crews fail to mirror, leading to the coaches and crowd yelling at the referee (who is trying to block them out). This also occurs with injuries.


I think this comment highlights yet another problem, namely, the lack by the AR of first looking at the referee before raising the flag, and the lack by the referee, of looking at the AR with each pass and to both ARs at every stoppage. If the AR first looks at the referee and sees the referee is unlikely to see the flag, unless there is potential for major affectation of the match, why should they raise the flag at all? Secondly, if the referee is looking directly at the action, has a good angle and is not blocked, why would the AR raise the flag at all?


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## Night Owl (Dec 14, 2016)

We will see how the State/National Tournaments game will be handle this year.


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## Just a Parent (Dec 14, 2016)

Night Owl said:


> We will see how the State/National Tournaments game will be handle this year.


Why would they be handled any differently than they have in previous years?


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## Just a Parent (Dec 19, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> One flaw in the system is that the referee and AR only have one time to really "talk" - halftime. . . .


This is not a flaw in the system but of the particular referees. The system, if properly applied, allow referees and ARs to stay connected throughout the match and to address issues in real time and not wait until half time.


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## RedCard (Dec 24, 2018)

It doesn’t help when the parents are yelling “push him/her brack” and “get him/her back”. 
With that said, I believe there’s no referee out there hoping a player ever gets hurt.  Sure, referees know certain coaches and families so it may seem one sided but it really isn’t. I had a situation last summer in a tournament where I was the center referee and one of the teams was the team my son left at the end of the season so the coach hated me. I told the field Marshall my concerns so he watched the game. As I figured, the coach was huffing and puffing throughout the game saying I was favoring the other team. After the game he was voicing his feelings of unfairness to the field Marshall. The look on his face when the field marshall informed him that I called more fouls to the other team.


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## Toch (Dec 27, 2018)

espola said:


> Would you say a cop that sees a crime and won't enforce the law is not liable the next time the criminal repeats his act?


Stupid must be Espola’s super power.


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## Toch (Dec 27, 2018)

Night Owl said:


> I do not know if this has been talked  about already, but more and more I see to much violance in the field and ref' s allowing it!!!
> 
> When referring gets out of control letting our boys kill each other until someone gets really hurt, or worse, ref's taking sides and players knowing this.
> 
> Question? If my son gets hurt so bad that he cannot play ever again becouse  ref's allowing violant play, are they liable to get fired/sued?


NightOwl, it sounds like you’re looking for a non contact sport. Blaming the Ref & claiming the ref takes sides is hilarious. As the kids get better in skill and start playing more competitive, the game gets more and more physical. If your team is at the same level it was a few years ago then ...


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## MWN (Dec 28, 2018)

Yesterday, I saw a HS game where the attacker (White), in the box tried to beat 2 defenders (Green) and in the process lost the ball.  This Varsity player successfully defeated a shoulder charge and potential trip and eventually the player feigned a trip with both feet together, leaped in the air, chest out and arms back in some sort of swim/diving form and tumbled to the ground (no call as the previous contact was acceptable and the final contact was a clean tackle and obvious feign).  His team's sideline went ballistic.  Thereafter, the Green team is moving up field and the White defender moves in for a tackle, misses, trips over the Green teams leg and goes flying through the air (no call, potential foul by White, but advantage), White's sideline erupts in disbelief apparently believing that anytime one of their players gets air its a foul and the sideline becomes even louder, then a White defender in a last ditch effort to stop the attack knocks the Green attacker off the ball with a massive shoulder charge from behind sending the Green attacker to the ground (whistle - foul).

What the White sideline saw was two incompetent referees allowing their players to get fouled and fly all over the field and then when their player uses physical contact, the referee crew was clearly biased against them by calling a foul for similar behavior.

What I saw (an experienced referee) was a good job of non-calls by the referee team (2 man system) and some physical play indicative of higher level boys varsity soccer.  I also saw a uneducated sideline that was viewing the game through seriously biased glasses.


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## espola (Dec 28, 2018)

MWN said:


> Yesterday, I saw a HS game where the attacker (White), in the box tried to beat 2 defenders (Green) and in the process lost the ball.  This Varsity player successfully defeated a shoulder charge and potential trip and eventually the player feigned a trip with both feet together, leaped in the air, chest out and arms back in some sort of swim/diving form and tumbled to the ground (no call as the previous contact was acceptable and the final contact was a clean tackle and obvious feign).  His team's sideline went ballistic.  Thereafter, the Green team is moving up field and the White defender moves in for a tackle, misses, trips over the Green teams leg and goes flying through the air (no call, potential foul by White, but advantage), White's sideline erupts in disbelief apparently believing that anytime one of their players gets air its a foul and the sideline becomes even louder, then a White defender in a last ditch effort to stop the attack knocks the Green attacker off the ball with a massive shoulder charge from behind sending the Green attacker to the ground (whistle - foul).
> 
> What the White sideline saw was two incompetent referees allowing their players to get fouled and fly all over the field and then when their player uses physical contact, the referee crew was clearly biased against them by calling a foul for similar behavior.
> 
> What I saw (an experienced referee) was a good job of non-calls by the referee team (2 man system) and some physical play indicative of higher level boys varsity soccer.  I also saw a uneducated sideline that was viewing the game through seriously biased glasses.


Did the experienced referee caution the player who committed the obvious feign at the next stoppage in play?


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## Surfref (Dec 28, 2018)

espola said:


> Did the experienced referee caution the player who committed the obvious feign at the next stoppage in play?


Why?  If it was the first time they did it and did not get away with it they and all of the players that saw it will know not to do it again.  If I was the ref, I would have also said after it happened "No foul.  Get up and I don't want to see that again."  Players know fairly quickly which refs are going to fall for faking a foul and which ones will not tolerate it. If it happens again from that same player or teammate then I will be issuing a caution.


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## MWN (Dec 28, 2018)

espola said:


> Did the experienced referee caution the player who committed the obvious feign at the next stoppage in play?


I didn't stick around long enough to see, as I was walking by the field and simply observed this brief instance of play and sideline disorder.  Because the attacking player made an ill-advised attempt to beat 2 defenders in the box when he lost the ball and took his dive, I would not have cautioned in this instance because there was some contact (legal).  Without knowing if this was a pattern, I can't answer your question.


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## Frank (Dec 28, 2018)

MWN said:


> Yesterday, I saw a HS game where the attacker (White), in the box tried to beat 2 defenders (Green) and in the process lost the ball.  This Varsity player successfully defeated a shoulder charge and potential trip and eventually the player feigned a trip with both feet together, leaped in the air, chest out and arms back in some sort of swim/diving form and tumbled to the ground (no call as the previous contact was acceptable and the final contact was a clean tackle and obvious feign).  His team's sideline went ballistic.  Thereafter, the Green team is moving up field and the White defender moves in for a tackle, misses, trips over the Green teams leg and goes flying through the air (no call, potential foul by White, but advantage), White's sideline erupts in disbelief apparently believing that anytime one of their players gets air its a foul and the sideline becomes even louder, then a White defender in a last ditch effort to stop the attack knocks the Green attacker off the ball with a massive shoulder charge from behind sending the Green attacker to the ground (whistle - foul).
> 
> What the White sideline saw was two incompetent referees allowing their players to get fouled and fly all over the field and then when their player uses physical contact, the referee crew was clearly biased against them by calling a foul for similar behavior.
> 
> What I saw (an experienced referee) was a good job of non-calls by the referee team (2 man system) and some physical play indicative of higher level boys varsity soccer.  I also saw a uneducated sideline that was viewing the game through seriously biased glasses.



So you saw a standard HS game   ;-)


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