# President Joe Biden



## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

So far I've got to say I'm liking what I see. Lots of talk of unity and for the most part he's picking competent people to run things. 

I still think the democratic party needs to make a harder break from the progressive wing and chase moderates in order to build a lasting and meaningful majority in congress.... then Biden is probably comfortable with. But overall I'm pretty happy with what I see.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So far I've got to say I'm liking what I see. Lots of talk of unity and for the most part he's picking competent people to run things.
> 
> I still think the democratic party needs to make a harder break from the progressive wing and chase moderates in order to build a lasting and meaningful majority in congress.... then Biden is probably comfortable with. But overall I'm pretty happy with what I see.


he’s in a hard place. The schools policy is an example. He went from open the schools right away (and got objections from teachers) to open in the first 100 days to that bizarrely unworkable testing program no one liked (and would likely keep schools closed to next fall) to prioritize teacher vaccines (where he got push back) to radio silence during holidays.

I like the unity talk too but it’s very hard for him to corral the progressive wing particularly since (unlike Obama, Macron, or even Hillary) he’s not beloved and seems to have been only begrudgingly accepted as the best way to get rid of Trump.


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## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> he’s in a hard place. The schools policy is an example. He went from open the schools right away (and got objections from teachers) to open in the first 100 days to that bizarrely unworkable testing program no one liked (and would likely keep schools closed to next fall) to prioritize teacher vaccines (where he got push back) to radio silence during holidays.
> 
> I like the unity talk too but it’s very hard for him to corral the progressive wing particularly since (unlike Obama, Macron, or even Hillary) he’s not beloved and seems to have been only begrudgingly accepted as the best way to get rid of Trump.


That's a great example. No matter what he does, there are going to be winners and losers.  And in this day and age the loser will take to twitter.

My advise (not that he should listen to me) to Biden is I think he needs to learn from Trump regarding on how to handle the social media mob.  Boldly pick a direction and go forward without all the apologies and hand wringing. Trump got lot of votes, and not just for fanatics.  If voters gave Trump a fair shake for the ups and downs then they will give Biden a fare shake.

This shaky knees, outraged 15 year old bloggers on twitter can scare me into shaping national policy stuff has to stop.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

Biden is a skilled enough politician that he'll be able to stop the Ds at least from descending into full blown civil war.  Two caveats: a) his mental acuteness (while we don't know how bad it is, it's very clear he is suffering from some sort of mental decline....Jill Biden seems attached at the hip for every media event and has been caught giving him corrections so clearly its more than just his same old stuttering and speech problems), and b) his son's legal troubles to which he has been indirectly tied  Given Harris' media, though, and its focus on her (as opposed to the administration), I'd get a food taster if I were him.

The Rs are already in a civil war and will tear themselves apart in the coming years.  The establishment's hopes Trump will just fade away are idiotic.  Trump will lose the objections in Congress on January 6, but it's the drawing of battle lines.  The best hope for the Rs is Trump goes into as much mental decline as Biden.


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## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden is a skilled enough politician that he'll be able to stop the Ds at least from descending into full blown civil war.  Two caveats: a) his mental acuteness (while we don't know how bad it is, it's very clear he is suffering from some sort of mental decline....Jill Biden seems attached at the hip for every media event and has been caught giving him corrections so clearly its more than just his same old stuttering and speech problems), and b) his son's legal troubles to which he has been indirectly tied  Given Harris' media, though, and its focus on her (as opposed to the administration), I'd get a food taster if I were him.
> 
> The Rs are already in a civil war and will tear themselves apart in the coming years.  The establishment's hopes Trump will just fade away are idiotic.  Trump will lose the objections in Congress on January 6, but it's the drawing of battle lines.  The best hope for the Rs is Trump goes into as much mental decline as Biden.


Yeah I agree that some days Biden seems old. Then a couple days later he's rolling past reporters on a mountain bike.  If I had to bet, my $10 would be Harris is going to finish out President Biden's 4 year term but who knows. I'll admit Harris somehow isn't the type of politico that makes my heart go pitter-patter- but she is smart and pragmatic. Let's just hope Biden is able to teach her how to do a better running the country then she did running a presidential campaign.

As to Biden's son? From what I understand Trump was calling up world leaders and threatening American aid if they didn't dig up dirt on Biden's son... and it doesn't seem to me like it lead to much? Sort of like Trumps election fraud commission. That said, if something is 'really' there that somehow wasn't yet uncovered; then of course all bets are off. Though personally I'm doubtful.

Also I agree Trumps not going to fade away. However to keep himself in the newspapers he is going to naturally have to keep raising the bar in order to inject himself into the conversation. If Mitch thinks he's got a diva on his hands now, I would tell him to buckle his seat belt.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Yeah I agree that some days Biden seems old. Then a couple days later he's rolling past reporters on a mountain bike.  If I had to bet, my $10 would be Harris is going to finish out President Biden's 4 year term but who knows. I'll admit Harris somehow isn't the type of politico that makes my heart go pitter-patter- but she is smart and pragmatic. Let's just hope Biden is able to teach her how to do a better running the country then she did running a presidential campaign.
> 
> As to Biden's son? From what I understand Trump was calling up world leaders and threatening American aid if they didn't dig up dirt on Biden's son... and it doesn't seem to me like it lead to much? Sort of like Trumps election fraud commission. That said, if something is 'really' there that somehow wasn't yet uncovered; then of course all bets are off. Though personally I'm doubtful.
> 
> Also I agree Trumps not going to fade away. However to keep himself in the newspapers he is going to naturally have to keep raising the bar in order to inject himself into the conversation. If Mitch thinks he's got a diva on his hands now, I would tell him to buckle his seat belt.


Biden and Harris don't have a comfy political relationship.  Supposedly he never forgave her for the hit she took on him during the campaign and chose her as the least controversial options from among the pool he was forced to choose from.  Plus Biden is a very smart guy and he totally knows what she is.  Their relationship is going to be more VEEP than a rerun of the Bush-Cheney, Obama-Biden, or even the Trump-Pence shows.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden and Harris don't have a comfy political relationship.  Supposedly he never forgave her for the hit she took on him during the campaign and chose her as the least controversial options from among the pool he was forced to choose from.  Plus Biden is a very smart guy and he totally knows what she is.  Their relationship is going to be more VEEP than a rerun of the Bush-Cheney, Obama-Biden, or even the Trump-Pence shows.


p.s. Biden's issues don't appear to be physical at all.  You can early dementia or alzheimers and be perfectly physically fit running and zooming on bikes


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## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden and Harris don't have a comfy political relationship.  Supposedly he never forgave her for the hit she took on him during the campaign and chose her as the least controversial options from among the pool he was forced to choose from.  Plus Biden is a very smart guy and he totally knows what she is.  Their relationship is going to be more VEEP than a rerun of the Bush-Cheney, Obama-Biden, or even the Trump-Pence shows.


Not sure I agree. I have no doubt Biden is still pissed. That shallow performance made me somewhat dislike her too. 

That said the only reason Biden is president is because the black community showed up for him in the primary. They didn't turn out for the Socialists who promised them shiny things and they didn't turn out for Harris despite her new found sisterhood.

Biden knows the score and is going to play it forward by getting Harris ready. (My best guess anyway)


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## Scott m Shurson (Jan 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So far I've got to say I'm liking what I see. Lots of talk of unity and for the most part he's picking competent people to run things.
> 
> I still think the democratic party needs to make a harder break from the progressive wing and chase moderates in order to build a lasting and meaningful majority in congress.... then Biden is probably comfortable with. But overall I'm pretty happy with what I see.


There's no unity.  That demented kid toucher talks about unity, now, after making no effort towards it during Trump's watch.  Joe Biden was dead and buried until the DNC paid off the other contenders.  There will be no unity because everyone knows what the democrats have become the last 4 years.


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## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> There's no unity.  That demented kid toucher talks about unity, now, after making no effort towards it during Trump's watch.  Joe Biden was dead and buried until the DNC paid off the other contenders.  There will be no unity because everyone knows what the democrats have become the last 4 years.


Well... there will certainly never be unity with Biden and the Trump or die crowd. They won't even work with Republican's on securing the senate of Georgia, so hoping to achieve peace with them strikes me as unlikely. Sort of like the AOC crowd, who had 'to be convinced' to vote for Biden.  And to both those groups I say go kick rocks.

As for the middle? The voters who switch from Obama voters, to Trump voters and/or maybe sat out this past election? That is a group I would argue that Biden can win over.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> As for the middle? The voters who switch from Obama voters, to Trump voters and/or maybe sat out this past election? That is a group I would argue that Biden can win over.


Wishful thinking.  There is no love for Biden (or the rest of the establishment) out there now.  What future there is for him depends on what the economy does and I'm really torn on that.   One school says we are in a bubble kept afloat by cheap money, the fact money has nowhere else to go, and that the underlying fundamentals for a great deal of people is rocky when past due rents, mortgages, bills, loans finally come due.  The other says they'll be a resurgence as people celebrate their release from lockdown and do a lot of pent up demand.  I'm torn on which is which, but Biden has very little control on this.  He can help it along on the margins but the progressive left (with more regulations and restrictions) won't be doing him any favors in starting up the rocket ship and there isn't a whole lot of money (or votes because of the tight margins in Congress) for a whole lot more stimulus.  If the government free money causes inflation, the feds will also be putting on the breaks too.  A lot of it is out of his hands.


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## tenacious (Jan 2, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wishful thinking.  There is no love for Biden (or the rest of the establishment) out there now.  What future there is for him depends on what the economy does and I'm really torn on that.   One school says we are in a bubble kept afloat by cheap money, the fact money has nowhere else to go, and that the underlying fundamentals for a great deal of people is rocky when past due rents, mortgages, bills, loans finally come due.  The other says they'll be a resurgence as people celebrate their release from lockdown and do a lot of pent up demand.  I'm torn on which is which, but Biden has very little control on this.  He can help it along on the margins but the progressive left (with more regulations and restrictions) won't be doing him any favors in starting up the rocket ship and there isn't a whole lot of money (or votes because of the tight margins in Congress) for a whole lot more stimulus.  If the government free money causes inflation, the feds will also be putting on the breaks too.  A lot of it is out of his hands.


Fair enough.

In my defense I would simply say I don't think Biden's problems are as ominous as you present it. For example, most folks getting evicted have been saving up that money for months. With legislation as simple as a grace period on credit scores during the pandemic... and a lot of folks avoid homelessness. Yes the landlords who derive income from rent are going to get hurt; but they were going to get hurt no matter what by the onset of remote work. In the end credit forgiveness will prove a boon to them also. If Biden prevents millions from going homeless... coupled with some more loans to small businesses and that is going to go a long way.

As long as Biden keeps his eye on the ball there is room to work.


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## Grace T. (Jan 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> In my defense I would simply say I don't think Biden's problems are as ominous as you present it. For example, most folks getting evicted have been saving up that money for months. With legislation as simple as a grace period on credit scores during the pandemic... and a lot of folks avoid homelessness. Yes the landlords who derive income from rent are going to get hurt; but they were going to get hurt no matter what by the onset of remote work. In the end credit forgiveness will prove a boon to them also. If Biden prevents millions from going homeless... coupled with some more loans to small businesses and that is going to go a long way.
> 
> As long as Biden keeps his eye on the ball there is room to work.


The problem with this is that the economics is all linked.  Touch rent and you get the landlord in hot water.  Give enough landlords relief and the banks get in trouble.  And there aren't the votes this time for a huge bank bailout under any scenario for the Georgia elections.  All this has been held in stasis by the freezes in the large cities, but eventually something there is going to go.   The question is if there's enough pent up demand there to create a boom (which with all the cheap money out there BTW will possibly create real bad inflation).  I wish him all the luck, but it's a very thin needle to thread......frankly I don't know why Trump would have wanted the headache (at the end of the 8 years even if the economy could turn around the Rs would be routed into the wilderness for a generation).  But for the humiliation of being a 1 term president it's really not worth it.  I'm also really concerned about what the markets and bitcoin have been doing.  It really does seem like a classic bubble because money has no where else to go.....I had expected the markets to rebound but not at the level they have which means there's a mechanism going on there that people are missing......


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> In my defense I would simply say I don't think Biden's problems are as ominous as you present it. For example, *most folks getting evicted have been saving up that money for months.* With legislation as simple as a grace period on credit scores during the pandemic... and a lot of folks avoid homelessness. Yes the landlords who derive income from rent are going to get hurt; but they were going to get hurt no matter what by the onset of remote work. In the end credit forgiveness will prove a boon to them also. If Biden prevents millions from going homeless... coupled with some more loans to small businesses and that is going to go a long way.
> 
> As long as Biden keeps his eye on the ball there is room to work.


So MOST folks who will get evicted are actually saving their rent money so when they get the boot they have money so no homelessness?  Are you serious or is this satire?  I would say some folks might be doing that but most are SOL Tenacious.  I know a Mom & Dad who have 9, 6 and 1 year old children.  Dad got laid off and is making 900 every two weeks.  Mom was a stay home but she had to go look for work.  Dad is drinking and is super depressed.  Lost a lot more then a job.  So I got with the both of them to help them out.  After much prayer, they have decided to move to Ohio and live with her parents.  Dad is a mess but I told him their is hope and not to give up.  This is not satire, this is a real story with real humans.  Their not deplorables, just fellow American human beings.


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

God does not play tricks on his people.  I'm not sure the translation is correct but WHO cares, right?


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## tenacious (Jan 3, 2021)

crush said:


> So MOST folks who will get evicted are actually saving their rent money so when they get the boot they have money so no homelessness?  Are you serious or is this satire?  I would say some folks might be doing that but most are SOL Tenacious.  I know a Mom & Dad who have 9, 6 and 1 year old children.  Dad got laid off and is making 900 every two weeks.  Mom was a stay home but she had to go look for work.  Dad is drinking and is super depressed.  Lost a lot more then a job.  So I got with the both of them to help them out.  After much prayer, they have decided to move to Ohio and live with her parents.  Dad is a mess but I told him their is hope and not to give up.  This is not satire, this is a real story with real humans.  Their not deplorables, just fellow American human beings.


No matter what we do... unless we stop being capitalists... folks who aren't paying rent are going to get evicted. It's coming, and millions are looking at ruined credit scores and eviction as soon as the government lifts the ban on evictions and foreclosures. Regardless of what we might want, this crisis is coming and Biden is going to have to come up with a plan to mitigate the damage.

As to your example, obviously mental illness and addiction is going to put some families in the position where they aren't paying their bills and yet somehow have none of the money the rest of us have been giving money left over. No doubt this smaller subsets that need additional help. But if you're just not paying your bills and your just not saving the money you're being given to do so... personally I don't have a lot of sympathy pandemic or no.


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> *personally I don't have a lot of sympathy.*


100% correct with that statement.  That is an easy read on you.  Tenacious for yourself. I get it and that is your choice. You seem to look at all people the same.  That is too bad.  When you take time to feed the homeless, you get to ask them questions.  The middle class is now looking to join up with the homeless and that is something that sucks.  I see flaws in Capitalism and it's not perfect.  Are you more incline to be with CCP? or Socialist? Or maybe a little bit of it all?  For me, I want to be free and live in America and help all Americans first.


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## tenacious (Jan 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with this is that the economics is all linked.  Touch rent and you get the landlord in hot water.  Give enough landlords relief and the banks get in trouble.  And there aren't the votes this time for a huge bank bailout under any scenario for the Georgia elections.  All this has been held in stasis by the freezes in the large cities, but eventually something there is going to go.   The question is if there's enough pent up demand there to create a boom (which with all the cheap money out there BTW will possibly create real bad inflation).  I wish him all the luck, but it's a very thin needle to thread......frankly I don't know why Trump would have wanted the headache (at the end of the 8 years even if the economy could turn around the Rs would be routed into the wilderness for a generation).  But for the humiliation of being a 1 term president it's really not worth it.  I'm also really concerned about what the markets and bitcoin have been doing.  It really does seem like a classic bubble because money has no where else to go.....I had expected the markets to rebound but not at the level they have which means there's a mechanism going on there that people are missing......


No one is mourning the Air BnB hosts who have already been wiped out. There is going to be more pain for the renters, the landlords, the banks. But of course markets grow and contract. Risk is never far away. This is how it is and how it's always been here. In the end this capital first approach has given us some of the highest living standards in the world and made ours the most powerful nation. 

The better banks, the better businesses will all make it out of this. And new better business will grow to replace those that went bankrupt. That's how capitalism works.


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> *No one is mourning the Air BnB hosts who have already been wiped out*. *There is going to be more pain for the renters, the landlords, the banks. *But of course markets grow and contract. Risk is never far away. This is how it is and how it's always been here. In the end this approach has given us some of the highest living standards in the world and made ours the most powerful nation.
> 
> The better banks, the better businesses will all make it out of this. And new better business will grow to replace those that went bankrupt. That's how capitalism works.


Wrong Tenacious.  If one suffers we all suffer as Americans. I have Empathy in my blood for some reason.  Some say it's my mental illness I have.  I can say 100% I asked the creator to get it out of my blood but it wont leave.  I have learned to embrace my gifts that others dont have.  With the gift of feeling other peoples feelings, I learn how to feel other people pain.  I dont feel anyone's success for some reason.  I feel bad for anyone down and out and SOL.  I feel bad for Hunter and I wonder what his life was like as a boy.  I feel bad for those who cheat and toss and turn in their bed with guilt but can;t get open and honest so they can feel what it;s like to win without cheating.   Nope, they just keep on cheating and lying to cover all the past cheatings.  I feel bad for our country right now.  However, I take those feelings and turn them into positive thoughts.  I was born for this moment.  54 years old.  9 is a good number?  Born 11:00am on 11/19/1966.  Baby boy Kirk with Scottish Highlander Blood Line that comes from William Wallace.  I know you to be a mutt and I'm a Bastard.  We both made it.  Let's both help fix this crap.


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## tenacious (Jan 3, 2021)

Sorry Crush. You're ranting and I'm going to put you on block for little bit.  Hope you have a nice day.


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Sorry Crush. You're ranting and I'm going to put you on block for little bit.  Hope you have a nice day.


You started the thread.  Truth hurts and most people just say I'm ranting, crazy dad who thinks his dd got ripped off a few years ago.  2017 was a sh*t show for my personal life.  I know I wasnt Tenacious enough to cheat to survive and not look like a fool to my so called friends.  I lost everything and now I'm back to help those who have lost everything.  No rainy day fund could cover all this BS.  Let's work together?  Go ahead and ignore me on your thread of our new soon to be Elected-President.  Dont go away now.  This is going to get insane.  Cheaters always kick back when they get caught.  CHEATERS WILL NEVER PROSPER IN THIS COUNTRY AGAIN!!!!!


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## Grace T. (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> No one is mourning the Air BnB hosts who have already been wiped out. There is going to be more pain for the renters, the landlords, the banks. But of course markets grow and contract. Risk is never far away. This is how it is and how it's always been here. In the end this capital first approach has given us some of the highest living standards in the world and made ours the most powerful nation.
> 
> The better banks, the better businesses will all make it out of this. And new better business will grow to replace those that went bankrupt. That's how capitalism works.


There are 4 possible futures here: 1) people relax as the Rona quickly goes away due to a smooth vaccination rollout (after a rocky start) and people who have been hording vacation, car and home money begin to spend leading to an era of good feelings and Joe Biden is hailed as the savior of a nation now that the fever dream of Trump has broken, 2) the underlying fundamentals of the economy are unsound despite larger companies such as Amazon doing well and when controls get released (which they must eventually) a long and sustained (but hopefully shallow) recession follows which the world can't pull out of quickly due to the bullets being spent in government policy and the worldwide effects, 3) people begin to relax and spend like crazy and at first Biden is given a lot of credit and is able to unify the country, but soon the effects of printing money and QE begin to devalue our standard of living, inflation begins to be seen again, and a great income disparity causes stress between the winners and losers, or 4) worst case: stagflation combination of 2 & 3 (hey...at least maybe disco music is poised to make a come back???)


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## tenacious (Jan 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There are 4 possible futures here: 1) people relax as the Rona quickly goes away due to a smooth vaccination rollout (after a rocky start) and people who have been hording vacation, car and home money begin to spend leading to an era of good feelings and Joe Biden is hailed as the savior of a nation now that the fever dream of Trump has broken, 2) the underlying fundamentals of the economy are unsound despite larger companies such as Amazon doing well and when controls get released (which they must eventually) a long and sustained (but hopefully shallow) recession follows which the world can't pull out of quickly due to the bullets being spent in government policy and the worldwide effects, 3) people begin to relax and spend like crazy and at first Biden is given a lot of credit and is able to unify the country, but soon the effects of printing money and QE begin to devalue our standard of living, inflation begins to be seen again, and a great income disparity causes stress between the winners and losers, or 4) worst case: stagflation combination of 2 & 3 (hey...at least maybe disco music is poised to make a come back???)


See I would break it into two outcomes. American consumers keep spending or they don’t. The businesses, the politicians, the reporters... they are all replaceable. Especially in a market economy. But if consumers lose confidence then there is going to be trouble.

This is why I think the idea of giving people a “credit holiday’ for what happens during the pandemic when it comes to their credit scores. Access to the cheap 1% credit market is going to be vital to keeping consumers confident enough to spend.

Just my two cents.


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## crush (Jan 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> See I would break it into two outcomes. American consumers keep spending or they don’t. The businesses, the politicians, the reporters... they are all replaceable. Especially in a market economy. *But if consumers lose confidence then there is going to be trouble.*
> 
> This is why I think the idea of giving people a “credit holiday’ for what happens during the pandemic when it comes to their credit scores. Access to the cheap 1% credit market is going to be vital to keeping consumers confident enough to spend.
> 
> *Just my two cents.*


All we get is your two cents worth?  Where is the other 98%?  Holding back on all of us, huh?  Come on, that's it? I waited all day for two pennies? Get real and tell it like you mean it.  2% of what you think is weak btw!!!!


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## Glitterhater (Jan 3, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There are 4 possible futures here: 1) people relax as the Rona quickly goes away due to a smooth vaccination rollout (after a rocky start) and people who have been hording vacation, car and home money begin to spend leading to an era of good feelings and Joe Biden is hailed as the savior of a nation now that the fever dream of Trump has broken, 2) the underlying fundamentals of the economy are unsound despite larger companies such as Amazon doing well and when controls get released (which they must eventually) a long and sustained (but hopefully shallow) recession follows which the world can't pull out of quickly due to the bullets being spent in government policy and the worldwide effects, 3) people begin to relax and spend like crazy and at first Biden is given a lot of credit and is able to unify the country, but soon the effects of printing money and QE begin to devalue our standard of living, inflation begins to be seen again, and a great income disparity causes stress between the winners and losers, or 4) worst case: stagflation combination of 2 & 3 (hey...at least maybe disco music is poised to make a come back???)


I think it could be any of these. I worry about both commercial and residential real estate. Commercial because I can't stand empty, broken down buildings everywhere, and residential because we absolutely will see a price correction- there is no way around it. I think the market is being propped up with a false sense of security right now. That bottom has to fall out. Hopefully not as severely as it did during what... 2011? But with all the people set to lose their rent/mortgage forgiveness, it's bound to happen. And for the average working class individidual has been surving on UE, how do you pull out of that hole if you lose the roof over your head?


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## Grace T. (Jan 4, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I think it could be any of these. I worry about both commercial and residential real estate. Commercial because I can't stand empty, broken down buildings everywhere, and residential because we absolutely will see a price correction- there is no way around it. I think the market is being propped up with a false sense of security right now. That bottom has to fall out. Hopefully not as severely as it did during what... 2011? But with all the people set to lose their rent/mortgage forgiveness, it's bound to happen. And for the average working class individidual has been surving on UE, how do you pull out of that hole if you lose the roof over your head?


Yeah, I'm agonizing over this because I've got to make a call in a couple day one way or another.  But I agree with you....I'm leaning into it's not going to good......the securities and bitcoin market bubbles are what's worrying me.


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## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, I'm agonizing over this because I've got to make a call in a couple day one way or another.  But I agree with you....I'm leaning into it's not going to good......the securities and bitcoin market bubbles are what's worrying me.


4) has become more likely....I'd expect the Ds to use reconciliation for another stimulus bill.

Given what's happening at the capitol (and what's been happening with law enforcement in DC leading up to this), I expect this is also the moment the right's blanket alignment with the police ends.  I expect law enforcement to be pressured to pick sides going forward, or get stuck in the middle between the 2 groups.


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## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Not taking sides between them, but Mitch's takedown of Trump on the Senate floor today is epic.  "We cannot keep drifting apart into 2 separate tribes"....that's the fundamental defining line between the establishment and the Trumpists.  Mitch though doesn't realize we've already crossed that line and he's just mourning over a corpse.  After this and after Georgia, it's open warfare in the Republican party between the establishment and Trumpists....while I'm not saying it's likely, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Republican party dissolve.


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## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Something which I read that I think will ring true.  Both Trump and the opposition made the mistake of thinking it was all about Trump.  Trump wasn't the river...Trump was the dam.


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## nextgenathletics (Jan 6, 2021)

Biden is going to follow the corporatist playbook. Listen to the big money and adjust policy as such. Big money is currently migrating into climate change infrastructure and genomics. Expect legislation to mirror where the corporations want their money to grow. Small businesses and the working class have NO say.

Same game, nothing has changed. Leftists were used as tools to usher the establishment back into power, and the patriots had momentary freedom to create temporarily successful small businesses under Trump. The fun is over...back to stratification.


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## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Capitol has been occupied.  Speaker's office has requested the National Guard.


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## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Capitol has been occupied.  Speaker's office has requested the National Guard.


Madness.


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## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Senate occupied.  They are trying to break into a barricaded House.  Reports of shots fired near the House.  Right now armed law enforcement (Guards?) being filmed entering Capitol with ARs.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

At least one person has been shot.....


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> At least one person has been shot.....


If this ends with just a single person shot, it'll be a miracle.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

There are unconfirmed reports that Trump has refused to grant the request of the DC Mayor to deploy the National Guard.  Ds are saying a coup is underway.  Trump did call upon the protestors to remain peaceful over twitter.


----------



## watfly (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There are unconfirmed reports that Trump has refused to grant the request of the DC Mayor to deploy the National Guard.  Ds are saying a coup is underway.  Trump did call upon the protestors to remain peaceful over twitter.


Disturbing, sad, not sure there are adequate words.  Trump needs to tell these nut jobs to go home at a minimum.  A Twitter message to be peaceful is far from acceptable.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

I just heard multiple officers injured- one severe enough to take to hospital.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Protestors brought tear gas & flash bangs which they deployed against the police. Suspect devices (pipes with wires) found in the Capitol building ... hardly a MacGyvre figure or two whipping them up on the fly.

This is clearly a planned event. Its not a stretch to start talking insurrection and sedition.

Trump stoked the pot earlier.

What's his legacy in 4 brief years?
- lost the presidency
- lost the House
- lost the Senate
- mobs attacking police
- capitol building "invaded"
- Republican party ... in the shitter

This is a very sad day for America.

These people should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There are unconfirmed reports that Trump has refused to grant the request of the DC Mayor to deploy the National Guard.  Ds are saying a coup is underway.  Trump did call upon the protestors to remain peaceful over twitter.


SECDEF approved 2 days ago.  POTUS, even as the CINC, has little say so over such an activation. DC Mayor and Capitol Police both made requests.  Has taken some time to allocate resources, mobilize, plan, etc.  Poor planning on everyone's part.  Multiple agencies now involved.  DC is a complex place to operate and unity of command is tough, especially with the egos involved.   

They'll eventually get their act together and establish a clear boundary,  We will see what the reaction is  from the "mob" is.  That will drive everything.  Besides, the National Guard troops will not be armed and have no authority to make arrests.  They'll be there to "protect" property and as traffic control.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

AP is reporting the woman who was shot earlier has died.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> AP is reporting the woman who was shot earlier has died.


Damn. Any loss of life is just awful.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal.  His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them. 

Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.

Hawley-Cruz in an impossible position...if they continue their protest they'll be condemned for giving this outrageous act validation.  If they drop it, they will be signing the death warrant of the Republican Party.  Even former President Bush weighed in.

Lot's of lines being crossed.  I said weeks ago the republic is not in a good place and said stuff like this might happen, and we aren't even to the inauguration yet. The Republic is not in a good place.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal.  His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.
> 
> Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.
> 
> ...


It is time for a Republican movement to remove him.   

I don't think there are enough willing to do it.   You'd need something like 20 Senators and support from leadership.  At the moment, you can count 2.  (Sasse and Romney)

A shame.  The GOP needs to out from under Trump's thumb, and a rushed January impeachment would do it.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> It is time for a Republican movement to remove him.
> 
> I don't think there are enough willing to do it.   You'd need something like 20 Senators and support from leadership.  At the moment, you can count 2.  (Sasse and Romney)
> 
> A shame.  The GOP needs to out from under Trump's thumb, and a rushed January impeachment would do it.


It would be another escalation and they'd be signing their own party's death certificate.  As Georgia showed, you can't win without both sides of the R Party (at least as long as the Ds remain unified, which they will so long as Joe Biden holds the presidency....afterwards all bets are off). There was a 5% drop in MAGA turnaround...between that and the loss of R votes in the suburbs, it's enough to turn Georgia blue.  

I also point out this wouldn't have happened (wouldn't have been possible) but for the lack of condemnation of the riots in the spring/summer....remember Chris Cuomo: "since when are protests supposed to be polite and peaceful?"

Twitter now deleting Trump.  Another escalation.  The left wing of the Ds are calling for (and passing around a resolution) for the expulsion from Congress of any member that continues to object to the election results.  Won't happen but it's another escalation.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal.  His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.
> 
> Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.
> 
> ...


Hawley-Cruz have put themselves in that "impossible" position by trying to make some political hay out of this with an eye to 2024. They deserve whatever they get out of it, which is hopefully the end of any presidential aspirations and removal whenever they are up again.

How did the R's ever think it would end well with T? They could have curtailed him from the beginning, but thought they could use him. This was all pretty predictable and certainly more and more so up to the election, when T continually asserted that he could only lose if the Ds cheated and then obv. the toddler tantrums since that the Rs should have shut down at a national level and not thrown their own people in places like Georgia under the bus. Their own behavior just cost them Georgia and the Senate.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It would be another escalation and they'd be signing their own party's death certificate.  As Georgia showed, you can't win without both sides of the R Party (at least as long as the Ds remain unified, which they will so long as Joe Biden holds the presidency....afterwards all bets are off). There was a 5% drop in MAGA turnaround...between that and the loss of R votes in the suburbs, it's enough to turn Georgia blue.
> 
> I also point out this wouldn't have happened (wouldn't have been possible) but for the lack of condemnation of the riots in the spring/summer....remember Chris Cuomo: "since when are protests supposed to be polite and peaceful?"
> 
> Twitter now deleting Trump.  Another escalation.  The left wing of the Ds are calling for (and passing around a resolution) for the expulsion from Congress of any member that continues to object to the election results.  Won't happen but it's another escalation.


I agree that the kid gloves approach to BLM iconoclasm helped get us here. 

That said, most of us are tired of it and want leaders to help us find a way out.  That means decent people need to take a big step towards the middle, as Biden, Sasse, Romney, and Warnock have done.  

I don't care if Warnock is far more liberal than I am.  He knew we needed a conciliatory moment, and he is trying to give us one.  

Far better than those on the fringes who see a fire and reach for the gasoline.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I agree that the kid gloves approach to BLM iconoclasm helped get us here.
> 
> That said, most of us are tired of it and want leaders to help us find a way out.  That means decent people need to take a big step towards the middle, as Biden, Sasse, Romney, and Warnock have done.
> 
> ...


That would have been possible but for the pandemic (but then quite probably Trump would have been reelected).  The pandemic (and the debate around policies) however has made that pretty much impossible since neither side really is prepared to compromise on that.  The difficulty as well is we have totally torched our civic institutions: health experts, governors, press, pollsters, churches, courts, professional sports, Hollywood, the tech industry, the banks, the police and law enforcement (including CIA and federal agencies), teachers.  The only one capable of doing that is Biden, and frankly I'm not sure he has it in him.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Hawley-Cruz have put themselves in that "impossible" position by trying to make some political hay out of this with an eye to 2024. They deserve whatever they get out of it, which is hopefully the end of any presidential aspirations and removal whenever they are up again.
> 
> How did the R's ever think it would end well with T? They could have curtailed him from the beginning, but thought they could use him. This was all pretty predictable and certainly more and more so up to the election, when T continually asserted that he could only lose if the Ds cheated and then obv. the toddler tantrums since that the Rs should have shut down at a national level and not thrown their own people in places like Georgia under the bus. Their own behavior just cost them Georgia and the Senate.


The polls are pretty clear that Trump lost Georgia because the suburban leaning Rs left the Republican Party.  The Senators lost Georgia because the MAGA vote dropped 5%.   Again, the CW on this is wrong....it's not REALLY about Trump...the anger and frustration on both extremes doesn't deep down having anything to do with him.....the CW thinks Trump is the river......he's not......he's the dam.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

2020: Nothing is as awful as me. Impeachment, pandemic, riots, recession, a disputed election.  You ain't seen nothing like me.

2021: Hold my beer....


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

There is a video circulating on Twitter of the woman who was killed. She tried climbing through a window they had busted and got sniped by (what seems to be,) an officer. Why she thought breaking through a window into the White House was a good idea- who tf knows.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The polls are pretty clear that Trump lost Georgia because the suburban leaning Rs left the Republican Party.  The Senators lost Georgia because the MAGA vote dropped 5%.   Again, the CW on this is wrong....it's not REALLY about Trump...the anger and frustration on both extremes doesn't deep down having anything to do with him.....the CW thinks Trump is the river......he's not......he's the dam.


The 5% is selective though. Using the presidential #s as the base, about 500K fewer people voted which was split pretty evenly between those who voted D vs R last time. So sure, if those MAGAs had come out, then fine ... but if the people who voted for Biden last time all came out, then they still lose. Both GA senators jumped on the T train, which GA had just narrowly rejected, now they are gone too.

Don't tell T it's not about him, his head will explode.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> There is a video circulating on Twitter of the woman who was killed. She tried climbing through a window they had busted and got sniped by (what seems to be,) an officer. Why she thought breaking through a window into the White House was a good idea- who tf knows.


Not the WH obv. but yeah - I'm astounded that the police didn't let lose when they started to break in.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Not the WH obv. but yeah - I'm astounded that the police didn't let lose when they started to break in.


Your last sentence seems to be the million dollar question all over Twitter right now. How it got as far as it did. The scarier thing is that not only our allies were watching, (releasing statements, etc,) but so were our enemies. 2021 is looking like 2020's angrier, uglier, step sibling.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The 5% is selective though. Using the presidential #s as the base, about 500K fewer people voted which was split pretty evenly between those who voted D vs R last time. So sure, if those MAGAs had come out, then fine ... but if the people who voted for Biden last time all came out, then they still lose. Both GA senators jumped on the T train, which GA had just narrowly rejected, now they are gone too.
> 
> Don't tell T it's not about him, his head will explode.


Perdue almost won November outright.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Perdue almost won November outright.


lost of people almost won in Nov, but didn't.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> lost of people almost won in Nov, but didn't.


You miss the point.  Something shifted between November-January.  That was: 1) the behavior of the President probably stopped the suburban establishment lean Rs who "are tired of it" from changing their mind and supporting the Rs, and 2) some of the MAGA voters stayed home.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

This would be yet another escalation...almost as scary.  The establishment has the high ground after this and it would be a mistake.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346994270293553152


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Your last sentence seems to be the million dollar question all over Twitter right now. How it got as far as it did. The scarier thing is that not only our allies were watching, (releasing statements, etc,) but so were our enemies. 2021 is looking like 2020's angrier, uglier, step sibling.


yeah,

BLM march in Washington - Capitol steps



MAGAs storm Capitol steps were empty and we end up with this


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You miss the point.  Something shifted between November-January.  That was: 1) the behavior of the President probably stopped the suburban establishment lean Rs who "are tired of it" from changing their mind and supporting the Rs, and 2) some of the MAGA voters stayed home.


Not really, I just made the point that some 500K less people voted vs the presidential election. I accept that MAGA may have reduced by 5% as they are in that 500K, but they are not the whole 500K, i.e. plenty of others who voted for Biden stayed at home. It seems pretty clear that plenty of lean R's switch sides because of T. We knew that since Nov, and both senators doubled down with T and both lost.

The R challenge now is how do they keep the MAGA vote and get the moderate Rs back. The latter won't vote for MAGA candidates (it seems) in state wide elections - see AZ also where Rs were fine locally but have now lost both senate seats and the pres race.

The R & D challenge is how do they change their primary processes to stop the extremes hijacking their parties. The majority of Americans are centrist IMV, some lean right and some left, but the majority are not extreme right or left. The primary process is screwing up functioning government.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> yeah,
> 
> BLM march in Washington - Capitol steps
> 
> ...


IIUC the difference between the 2 is for the left-protests, the perimeter was established at the steps of the capitol itself.  For the right-protests, the perimeter was established on the boundary of the Capitol grounds.  (From recorded audio, it's one of the complaints of the MAGA protestors....they were "being kept from the people's house").  They only, however, put up a chain link fence around the Capitol grounds...presumably because they are putting up the inauguration scaffolding and need to maintain access.  Traditionally, groups have been allowed to protest on the Capitol grounds and steps....but because of COVID has been restricted (as I've written....none of this happens except from COVID).

Ultimately, BTW, the Speaker of the House is responsible for Capitol security, so if you generally buy into the "buck stop here" argument that's where responsibility for the debacle on the security end of things lie.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The R challenge now is how do they keep the MAGA vote and get the moderate Rs back. The latter won't vote for MAGA candidates (it seems) in state wide elections - see AZ also where Rs were fine locally but have now lost both senate seats and the pres race.
> 
> The R & D challenge is how do they change their primary processes to stop the extremes hijacking their parties. The majority of Americans are centrist IMV, some lean right and some left, but the majority are not extreme right or left. The primary process is screwing up functioning government.


You've answered your own question: the primary system.  The Rs can't win generals without both the MAGA and the establishment wings of the Trump coalition.  They are in an internal war now, postponed only by Trump's presidency.  You saw the beginnings of it in the 2016 primary.  California tried opened primaries but it hasn't really seemed to have helped much.  The best hope for the establishment is that the populists are sufficiently cowed that they retreat for a while....removing Trump would have the opposite effect and give up the high ground.

BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors.  Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors.  Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.


Of course the Repubs are cowed.  Their leader just took the hugely unpopular step of inviting brown shirt wannabes to ransack the capital building.

They have the far left calling them Nazis.  So they defend themselves by trying to burn down the Reichstag.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Of course the Repubs are cowed.  Their leader just took the hugely unpopular step of inviting brown shirt wannabes to ransack the capital building.
> 
> They have the far left calling them Nazis.  So they defend themselves by trying to burn down the Reichstag.


Keep it that way.  Don't give him the high ground.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You've answered your own question: the primary system.  The Rs can't win generals without both the MAGA and the establishment wings of the Trump coalition.  They are in an internal war now, postponed only by Trump's presidency.  You saw the beginnings of it in the 2016 primary.  California tried opened primaries but it hasn't really seemed to have helped much.  The best hope for the establishment is that the populists are sufficiently cowed that they retreat for a while....removing Trump would have the opposite effect and give up the high ground.
> 
> BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors.  Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.


Ha ha, whiny magaty trumpanzees stormed the Capitol today! 370,000 dead of Covid and a daily record of 4,100 today! Iran is enriching uranium! Climate change resulting in 5 of the 6 largest fires in CA history! American carnage! So awesome.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> IIUC the difference between the 2 is for the left-protests, the perimeter was established at the steps of the capitol itself.  For the right-protests, the perimeter was established on the boundary of the Capitol grounds.  (From recorded audio, it's one of the complaints of the MAGA protestors....they were "being kept from the people's house").  They only, however, put up a chain link fence around the Capitol grounds...presumably because they are putting up the inauguration scaffolding and need to maintain access.  Traditionally, groups have been allowed to protest on the Capitol grounds and steps....but because of COVID has been restricted (as I've written....none of this happens except from COVID).
> 
> Ultimately, BTW, the Speaker of the House is responsible for Capitol security, so if you generally buy into the "buck stop here" argument that's where responsibility for the debacle on the security end of things lie.


Didn't know that wrt the boundary, but the presence is definitely different, i.e. full on paramilitary garb and rows of it vs a few police officers in street clothes plus a few bicycle cops with helmets on. 

TBH, I don't blame the major of a city of there are riots even of the mayor is responsible for security, I blame the rioters.

I expect we, the tax payers, will now pay a hefty sum to make every entrance to the Capitol into a reinforced barrier with the ability to lock it down at a moments notice. Many contractors licking their lips at the sums that will take.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You've answered your own question: the primary system.  The Rs can't win generals without both the MAGA and the establishment wings of the Trump coalition.  They are in an internal war now, postponed only by Trump's presidency.  You saw the beginnings of it in the 2016 primary.  California tried opened primaries but it hasn't really seemed to have helped much.  The best hope for the establishment is that the populists are sufficiently cowed that they retreat for a while....removing Trump would have the opposite effect and give up the high ground.
> 
> BTW, the Democratic senators haven't been in a very unity mood in their speeches against the objectors.  Can't say I really blame them....have never seen the Rs so cowed.


No politician ever refuses a moment. Given the R's complete sycophantic deference to T for the last 4 years and the shit storm he started today and did the minimal possible to then prevent ... why would they do otherwise? Add in the 2 GA seats flipping and they frankly have every right to give it to them.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> There is a video circulating on Twitter of the woman who was killed. She tried climbing through a window they had busted and got sniped by (what seems to be,) an officer. Why she thought breaking through a window into the White House was a good idea- who tf knows.


It will be interesting how that plays out.  Was she a threat to anyone?  Did they think she was carrying a weapon (very hard to do in DC)? Did the capitol police officer feel like his life or those around him was being threatened?  How far away was she from the person who shot her?

She should not have been trying to forcibly enter the Capital building when it was obvious that they were denying entry.  With that said, she certainly didn't deserve to be shot and killed.  Arrested and roughed a bit during the process, sure, shot and killed - I don't think so.  We will see if this was an intentional shooting or was it a negligent discharge on behalf of the officer (if it turns out that the one shot fired was from an officer).  It sucks when you are forced to shoot someone, it sucks more when it's an accident, and they die.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 6, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha, whiny magaty trumpanzees stormed the Capitol today! 370,000 dead of Covid and a daily record of 4,100 today! Iran is enriching uranium! Climate change resulting in 5 of the 6 largest fires in CA history! American carnage! So awesome.


Now go back and re-read your May-June posts defending rioters and looters.  

This is what you were defending.  Own it.  

Do you like it this time around?  Do you have the same profound respect for spontaneous acts of protest?

I would hope we all can finally admit that civility itself is valuable.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No politician ever refuses a moment. Given the R's complete sycophantic deference to T for the last 4 years and the shit storm he started today and did the minimal possible to then prevent ... why would they do otherwise? Add in the 2 GA seats flipping and they frankly have every right to give it to them.


Yeah, but that's not gonna give us unity.  That's just gonna make them seethe until they can recapture the high ground later.  Given the left's own problems with violence, I don't anticipate that being very long.



whatithink said:


> Didn't know that wrt the boundary, but the presence is definitely different, i.e. full on paramilitary garb and rows of it vs a few police officers in street clothes plus a few bicycle cops with helmets on.
> 
> TBH, I don't blame the major of a city of there are riots even of the mayor is responsible for security, I blame the rioters.
> 
> I expect we, the tax payers, will now pay a hefty sum to make every entrance to the Capitol into a reinforced barrier with the ability to lock it down at a moments notice. Many contractors licking their lips at the sums that will take.


I remember when I did my stint in Washington during college and my gap year, the Capitol was wide open...just a bunch of metal detectors.  During my stint with the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Senate, I'd even give tours of the Capitol building to visiting friends. You could just enter the office buildings too.  After 9/11 they funneled public entrance into the new visitors center and built a bunker to house members of Congress if the Capitol was under attack (presumably that's where reports say the VP and Speaker were taken).  Took my kids a few years ago....very different, you couldn't wander like you could in the old days even after clearing the visitors center entrance and after the shooting of the R representatives they added new layers of security to the house galleries (you had to submit to a full body scan and identity check).  COVID has shut down pretty much all access except to select media and essential staff.  Now, no doubt access will be further restricted which will no doubt further inflame this separation (the notion on the right and left that the elites have themselves held up in some castle).



happy9 said:


> It will be interesting how that plays out.  Was she a threat to anyone?  Did they think she was carrying a weapon (very hard to do in DC)? Did the capitol police officer feel like his life or those around him was being threatened?  How far away was she from the person who shot her?
> 
> She should not have been trying to forcibly enter the Capital building when it was obvious that they were denying entry.  With that said, she certainly didn't deserve to be shot and killed.  Arrested and roughed a bit during the process, sure, shot and killed - I don't think so.  We will see if this was an intentional shooting or was it a negligent discharge on behalf of the officer (if it turns out that the one shot fired was from an officer).  It sucks when you are forced to shoot someone, it sucks more when it's an accident, and they die.


Video shows she was part of the group trying to storm onto the House chamber.  Police told the group to back off and then opened fire.  Reports on social media say she was ex military.  There's no indication so far that the group trying to storm the House fired first.  Some reports say it was because some House members were sheltered there, but I haven't seen video confirming.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Didn't know that wrt the boundary, but the presence is definitely different, i.e. full on paramilitary garb and rows of it vs a few police officers in street clothes plus a few bicycle cops with helmets on.
> 
> TBH, I don't blame the major of a city of there are riots even of the mayor is responsible for security, I blame the rioters.
> 
> I expect we, the tax payers, will now pay a hefty sum to make every entrance to the Capitol into a reinforced barrier with the ability to lock it down at a moments notice. Many contractors licking their lips at the sums that will take.


I think there is plenty of blame to be placed on the DC mayor and the emergency planners that coordinate the capitol police, and other federal law enforcement agencies that are responsible for security of federal buildings in DC..  They knew this was coming, the chatter was there in the open for all to hear. It takes weeks to get a permit to hold a demonstration in DC.

They were caught flat footed and unprepared.  *And yes, the mob is eventually to blame, it was their choice*.  They took advantage of the situation.  It's very easy to overwhelm law enforcement in patrol uniforms and on bikes behind light barriers.  It wasn't a fair fight at all.  The extremist within the group took advantage of the obvious lack of presence.  They are more sophisticated than many think.   

The city has the resources, just look at the law enforcement presence during previous BLM protests.  Whole city blocks barricaded, crowds contained into areas of their choosing, etc.  It's unfortunate.  From the outside looking in, and from an operational perspective, they blew it, and blew it big time. 

Take a peek now as to what has been deployed to the capital building.  There will be very few MAGA A$$hats that are  willing to take on fully uniformed law enforcement officers and National Guard soldiers.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Here's one of the Trumpists.  I don't think it's right that the R party has lost 70% of its vote.  I do, however, think the establishmentarians have lost the support of the Trumpkins and it's off the wilderness for the Rs....the Trump coalition is dead....it would take a very special R figure to put it back together. 

On the D's side this moment will require Biden to be Reagan or Kennedy, if not Lincoln.  Not sure he's up to that.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346982585000357888


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but that's not gonna give us unity.  That's just gonna make them seethe until they can recapture the high ground later.  Given the left's own problems with violence, I don't anticipate that being very long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She was a  14 year AF Veteran.  We will see what comes out of it.  Use of deadly force during this type of scenario is rare but then again, protective detail secret service types aren't trained in riot control.  I've been told two things, 1 shot fired, and multiple shots fired.  People were trying to pull her back through the window when someone (either secret service or capitol police shot her. It's hard for me to believe that in that type of density, multiple shots fired into confined space didn't result in multiple victims.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Now go back and re-read your May-June posts defending rioters and looters.
> 
> This is what you were defending.  Own it.
> 
> ...


I did not defend rioting. I told you why it was happening. And that is the problem with you Magats. You don’t care one bit about the legitimate reasons they were protesting and angry, you’re just using it to rationalize the illegitimate reasons your trumpanzee buddies stormed the U.S. Capitol. 

There are legitimate reasons to protest and even cause property damage. Whiny sore loser is not one of them. Ha ha.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

happy9 said:


> The city has the resources, just look at the law enforcement presence during previous BLM protests.  Whole city blocks barricaded, crowds contained into areas of their choosing, etc.  It's unfortunate.  From the outside looking in, and from an operational perspective, they blew it, and blew it big time.


I agree with your post but the city didn't exactly handle the BLM protests well.  Remember the protestors did storm the White House grounds and burned down that church outside it....federal law enforcement had to be called in.  After the Trump speech, Republicans leaving the speech were attacked by the leftist protestors.  And the mayor encouraged the protests.....law enforcement was present and certain city blocks (like the Capitol grounds) were barricaded, but they were also under orders to not interfere with the protests and in fairness some of the Rs were victims of that violence.  Then again a few weeks ago there was violence on the streets with the right and left attacking each other.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but that's not gonna give us unity.  That's just gonna make them seethe until they can recapture the high ground later.  Given the left's own problems with violence, I don't anticipate that being very long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


F**k unity. Magats don’t care about unity, so you get to pay.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

In memory of @crush, let’s meme!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

The Confederacy won! Y’all must be so proud!


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

happy9 said:


> She was a  14 year AF Veteran.  We will see what comes out of it.  Use of deadly force during this type of scenario is rare but then again, protective detail secret service types aren't trained in riot control.  I've been told two things, 1 shot fired, and multiple shots fired.  People were trying to pull her back through the window when someone (either secret service or capitol police shot her. It's hard for me to believe that in that type of density, multiple shots fired into confined space didn't result in multiple victims.


It was really hard to tell from the video, for sure. What was confusing was that there was another video floating around of a maga protester boasting he "shot a woman" and a fellow protester asked "is she dead"? So maybe it was "friendly" fire? Should be interesting to see how it plays out.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

EOTL said:


> In memory of @crush, let’s meme!
> 
> View attachment 9872


Great. Did Crush change names again??


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

DC police reporting 14 officers hurt....1 seriously injured after being assaulted by protestors, 1 with serious facial injuries.

3 deaths in the event (they didn't say who) due to medical emergency.

1 person shot and killed.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> It was really hard to tell from the video, for sure. What was confusing was that there was another video floating around of a maga protester boasting he "shot a woman" and a fellow protester asked "is she dead"? So maybe it was "friendly" fire? Should be interesting to see how it plays out.


I was sent another video that shows an interview with kid from NJ who said he was one of a group of people who was trying to pull her back through the window.  He clearly states that it was either secret service or capitol police that opened fire after warning her to not come close.  Eye witness statements will always vary.  It's easy to check who fired their service weapon.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Something which I read that I think will ring true.  Both Trump and the opposition made the mistake of thinking it was all about Trump.  Trump wasn't the river...Trump was the dam.


trump is trump, nothing else.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 6, 2021)

EOTL said:


> The Confederacy won! Y’all must be so proud!View attachment 9873


Man, I can feel how worked up you are - please go away while adults are trying to have a conversation.  Close the door, draw your shades tight and revel in yourself.  But, I know you won't do it, instead you'll turn to the bonus page in your playbook and work yourself up some more.  I should put you on ignore but then I'd miss all of your repetitive and amusing rhetoric.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Some prominent D voices are calling for Trump's removal or an article 25 removal.  His most recent tweet inflaming things is encouraging them.
> 
> Facebook is taking down the earlier Trump statement.
> 
> ...


The overwhelming majority of us are right where we want to be, it’s the crybabies that are unstable and upset.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I was sent another video that shows an interview with kid from NJ who said he was one of a group of people who was trying to pull her back through the window.  He clearly states that it was either secret service or capitol police that opened fire after warning her to not come close.  Eye witness statements will always vary.  It's easy to check who fired their service weapon.


I'm just now seeing that too- dude with a blue sweatshirt?

If you want to see the video I was talking about, it's on Twitter, FBI tagged and all. 

No matter whose side you're (you're meaning the US, not anyone on the thread,) on, I don't think (most people) wanted this to happen. Shame on anyone who is celebrating it from either side.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Man, I can feel how worked up you are - please go away while adults are trying to have a conversation.  Close the door, draw your shades tight and revel in yourself.  But, I know you won't do it, instead you'll turn to the bonus page in your playbook and work yourself up some more.  I should put you on ignore but then I'd miss all of your repetitive and amusing rhetoric.


Always happy to entertain. FYI, it isn’t possible to have an adult conversation with a magat.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump is trump, nothing else.


No...the Roman Republic didn't end because of Caesar (it could have been Pompei or Brutus).  And after Caesar was killed there was Octavian (and Anthony).  Just because Caesar is gone doesn't mean the Republic is safe.  We have a problem that's bigger than him....the complete collapse of our civic institutions, spurred on by the pandemic, and now culminating in elections and the occupation of the Capitol itself.  If the leadership ignores it, we will all regret it.  To thread this requires a leader of considerable character and ability....Biden will need to be more than Cicero. 

This will be remembered as a dark dark day for our Republic.  My fear is, short of strong intelligent leadership (including in the short term from Mike Pence), it's only the beginning.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No...the Roman Republic didn't end because of Caesar (it could have been Pompei or Brutus).  And after Caesar was killed there was Octavian.  Just because Caesar is gone doesn't mean the Republic is safe.  We have a problem that's bigger than him....the complete collapse of our civic institutions, spurred on by the pandemic, and now culminating in elections and the occupation of the Capitol itself.  If the leadership ignores it, we will all regret it.  To thread this requires a leader of considerable character and ability....Biden will need to be more than Cicero.
> 
> This will be remembered as a dark dark day for our Republic.  My fear is, short of strong intelligent leadership (including in the short term from Mike Pence), it's only the beginning.


Mike Pence a leader?  That’s funny. He needs to ask “mother” for permission to leave the house.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No...the Roman Republic didn't end because of Caesar (it could have been Pompei or Brutus).  And after Caesar was killed there was Octavian (and Anthony).  Just because Caesar is gone doesn't mean the Republic is safe.  We have a problem that's bigger than him....the complete collapse of our civic institutions, spurred on by the pandemic, and now culminating in elections and the occupation of the Capitol itself.  If the leadership ignores it, we will all regret it.  To thread this requires a leader of considerable character and ability....Biden will need to be more than Cicero.
> 
> This will be remembered as a dark dark day for our Republic.  My fear is, short of strong intelligent leadership (including in the short term from Mike Pence), it's only the beginning.


Roman empire is not a good analogy, Caesar in effect made himself Emperor (or Caesar), when it had been ruled by the senate. It was hundreds of years before it finally expired (the Eastern Empire being last after it split).

I don't think Trump is really that big a deal. McCarthy caused untold damage for a brief period of time, was rejected, got dejected and died shortly thereafter. I don't think Trump's spawn can carry on without him, they've never had to do anything to get ahead except hang onto T's coat tails. He's going to huff and puff and blow himself up - this is the worst that could have happened to him at this moment losing him most Rs in Congress, with losing GA on his watch too. He's a busted flush.

The R's were written off in 2008 when Obama swept to power and the D's took both houses ... that lasted all of 2 years.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Roman empire is not a good analogy, Caesar in effect made himself Emperor (or Caesar), when it had been ruled by the senate. It was hundreds of years before it finally expired (the Eastern Empire being last after it split).
> 
> I don't think Trump is really that big a deal. McCarthy caused untold damage for a brief period of time, was rejected, got dejected and died shortly thereafter. I don't think Trump's spawn can carry on without him, they've never had to do anything to get ahead except hang onto T's coat tails. He's going to huff and puff and blow himself up - this is the worst that could have happened to him at this moment losing him most Rs in Congress, with losing GA on his watch too. He's a busted flush.
> 
> The R's were written off in 2008 when Obama swept to power and the D's took both houses ... that lasted all of 2 years.


Respectfully disagree.  Trump is a symptom, not just a cause.  If it were just him, we could get through it easily. But our other civic institutions have never been weaker.  McCarthy was at a period where the Republic (despite WWII and depression and cold war) was still robust.  But we've trashed our other civic institutions, culminating now with trust in elections.  The Roman Republic fell not because of Caesar but because of institutional weakness which had crept in over decades.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 6, 2021)

In an attempt at some levity after today, how many of us forgot about COVID for the day?!?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 6, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> In an attempt at some levity after today, how many of us forgot about COVID for the day?!?


I did not. In fact, I posted earlier that today’s death toll exceeded 4,000 for the first time.

Thank god for the tangerine tantrum tosser’s twitter timeout, at least.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 6, 2021)

Just great....to end the day the Ds and the Rs on the house floor almost end in a fist fight.  If you guys think this is just about Trump, you are kidding yourselves.  The rot runs deep.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I agree with your post but the city didn't exactly handle the BLM protests well.  Remember the protestors did storm the White House grounds and burned down that church outside it....federal law enforcement had to be called in.  After the Trump speech, Republicans leaving the speech were attacked by the leftist protestors.  And the mayor encouraged the protests.....law enforcement was present and certain city blocks (like the Capitol grounds) were barricaded, but they were also under orders to not interfere with the protests and in fairness some of the Rs were victims of that violence.  Then again a few weeks ago there was violence on the streets with the right and left attacking each other.


I think the city intentionally handled the BLM protests with kiddie gloves.  White House outer perimeter was certainly stressed but never breached.  Plenty of resources available.  Secret Service plays by a different set of rules when it comes to the protection/defense of the White House.  They don't always get it right though (plenty of examples of White House perimeter breaches).


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Always happy to entertain. FYI, it isn’t possible to have an adult conversation with a magat.


You are certainly entertaining - nice job.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Just great....to end the day the Ds and the Rs on the house floor almost end in a fist fight.  If you guys think this is just about Trump, you are kidding yourselves.  The rot runs deep.


This is how magats try to make themselves feel better that they’re all s**tbags. They and their marmalade master can’t do anything but whine that they lost the election due to utter incompetence and maliciousness, make up lies about why they lost and support a coup, and them they try to “bothsides” their abysmal behavior simple because actual patriots don’t put up with it. 

Yes, your magat leaders deserved to get punched in the face.  Many of them deserve a firing squad in fact.  There is only one party that is trying to overthrow democratic government.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Just great....to end the day the Ds and the Rs on the house floor almost end in a fist fight.  If you guys think this is just about Trump, you are kidding yourselves.  The rot runs deep.


Your magat buddies/mob/terrortists storm the US Capitol and you’re whining that some democrats are upset with the douches and seditionists who caused it to happen. Says a lot about your kind.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No...the Roman Republic didn't end because of Caesar (it could have been Pompei or Brutus).  And after Caesar was killed there was Octavian (and Anthony).  Just because Caesar is gone doesn't mean the Republic is safe.  We have a problem that's bigger than him....the complete collapse of our civic institutions, spurred on by the pandemic, and now culminating in elections and the occupation of the Capitol itself.  If the leadership ignores it, we will all regret it.  To thread this requires a leader of considerable character and ability....Biden will need to be more than Cicero.
> 
> This will be remembered as a dark dark day for our Republic.  My fear is, short of strong intelligent leadership (including in the short term from Mike Pence), it's only the beginning.


I was just saying trump will trump no matter what glorious virtues his cult project upon him and then extol him for. He is in it for himself like always. And yes, dark day with more to come. These gullible QAnon followers will not go quietly into the night. I still believe "Q" is Putin's brainchild.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 7, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> In an attempt at some levity after today, how many of us forgot about COVID for the day?!?


Not in the least someone I know just died from it. At first I knew no one that had it. That list is now two dozen and growing quicker each day. The hypocrisy of trump supporters is astounding.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Just great....to end the day the Ds and the Rs on the house floor almost end in a fist fight.  If you guys think this is just about Trump, you are kidding yourselves.  The rot runs deep.


You believe trump. At least previously there was honor amongst our elected thieves, now like he always does trump pits one side against the other.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I did not. In fact, I posted earlier that today’s death toll exceeded 4,000 for the first time.
> 
> Thank god for the tangerine tantrum tosser’s twitter timeout, at least.


The timeout most definitely saved lives.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 7, 2021)

A violent, angry mob forced out police and destroyed property.  Multiple people died as a result.

In the last 12 months, this has happened multiple times, by mobs of both the right and the left.  Husker Du can remind you of the right wing ones, and Grace T. can remind you of the left wing ones.  And they'll both be right.

This is not a time to criticize the mob for their political leanings.  Now is the time to criticize the mob for being a mob.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> A violent, angry mob forced out police and destroyed property.  Multiple people died as a result.
> 
> In the last 12 months, this has happened multiple times, by mobs of both the right and the left.  Husker Du can remind you of the right wing ones, and Grace T. can remind you of the left wing ones.  And they'll both be right.
> 
> This is not a time to criticize the mob for their political leanings.  Now is the time to criticize the mob for being a mob.


Yeah, sure. Only one group has tried to overthrow the government of the US. Only one group has violently stormed the US Capitol. There is only one leader who incited it to happen. And you’re whining that a group that has been persecuted since the beginning of American history and are murdered by law enforcement based on their skin color burned down a Wendy’s. Not the same. Not even close. 

Of course Karen, er Grace, T. points to BLM protests, because that is the only way to rationalize her desire to overthrow the government. I can’t wait until she tries to tell people she knows what she’s talking about because she once had an internship  also wrote a paper in law school. Let me know when you’ve gotten past rationalizing the overthrow of the US government because people fight race discrimination. What a joke.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> A violent, angry mob forced out police and destroyed property.  Multiple people died as a result.
> 
> In the last 12 months, this has happened multiple times, by mobs of both the right and the left.  Husker Du can remind you of the right wing ones, and Grace T. can remind you of the left wing ones.  And they'll both be right.
> 
> This is not a time to criticize the mob for their political leanings.  Now is the time to criticize the mob for being a mob.


And one more thing. It is absolutely the time to criticize these domestic terrorists and the sycophants like yourself who defend them.  It’s just like when gun whackadoos murders 20 first graders and y’all claim it’s disrespectful to point out that it is 100% your fault. It’s the only way to make yourself feel better about being a s**tbag.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> A violent, angry mob forced out police and destroyed property.  Multiple people died as a result.
> 
> In the last 12 months, this has happened multiple times, by mobs of both the right and the left.  Husker Du can remind you of the right wing ones, and Grace T. can remind you of the left wing ones.  And they'll both be right.
> 
> This is not a time to criticize the mob for their political leanings.  Now is the time to criticize the mob for being a mob.


Hey @dad4 and Karen/Grace, this is all acceptable because a liquor store got burned down after the police murdered someone based on their skin color?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Not in the least someone I know just died from it. At first I knew no one that had it. That list is now two dozen and growing quicker each day. The hypocrisy of trump supporters is astounding.


I'm very sorry about that. For myself, I have known several who have had it as well- including multiple children close to me. Are you in LA area? I think I recently read that it's up to a 1 in every 5 person chance that there is a covid positive? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> A violent, angry mob forced out police and destroyed property.  Multiple people died as a result.
> 
> In the last 12 months, this has happened multiple times, by mobs of both the right and the left.  Husker Du can remind you of the right wing ones, and Grace T. can remind you of the left wing ones.  And they'll both be right.
> 
> This is not a time to criticize the mob for their political leanings.  Now is the time to criticize the mob for being a mob.


Right? A mob is a mob. No mincing words there.
I don't care which side is doing it- neither are right. This destruction and chaos is not going to help whatsoever.


----------



## nextgenathletics (Jan 7, 2021)

General takeaways from this thread and 2020 in general:

1. Mob mentality is bad, rioting is bad, looting is bad.

2. Leftwing extremists have been doing it for 8 months straight and liberal media, politicians and citizens have largely incited and encouraged it.

3. Rightwing extremists did it yesterday and conservative media, politicians and citizens have largely condemned it, with some exceptions.

4. Ad-hominem is sometimes justified.

5. EOTL is a buffoon.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

nextgenathletics said:


> General takeaways from this thread and 2020 in general:
> 
> 1. Mob mentality is bad, rioting is bad, looting is bad.
> 
> ...


Bothsides-ism. Keep rationalizing how invading the U.S. Capitol because you’re a whiny racist loser is the same as opposing racism.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 7, 2021)

Perspective....

"Just last night, a violent mob surrounded a Senators wife at home with their newborn baby. They tried to force themselves into the home. In the last four years, Congresspersons were shot at and Rand Paul and Steve Scalise were almost killed.

This year, whole cities were destroyed and cops were targeted and killed.

Today at the Capitol, a woman--unarmed--was shot and killed. Nobody cares, apparently.

If your outrage only flows in one direction, which is even true of many GOP people, you are not the solution.

*Why are we drawing the line at office buildings where Congress works as opposed to people's homes and businesses?

Whole city blocks were destroyed this summer. *Anyone who isn't equally incensed at both is not a patriot."


----------



## dad4 (Jan 7, 2021)

nextgenathletics said:


> General takeaways from this thread and 2020 in general:
> 
> 1. Mob mentality is bad, rioting is bad, looting is bad.
> 
> ...


You’ve forgotten the mid summer right wing events.  Rifles in the Michigan statehouse, ”Unite the Right“ rally, and so on.  Both extremes have been playing with this for a while now.  

It is not helpful for any of us to say “but you’re worse”.  The other side has a “but you’re worse” argument, too.  Indulging those arguments just gets us more of the same.  

I wish Biden all the luck in the world.  And I hope that Romney, Flake, or someone similar can build a loyal opposition worthy of the name.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2021)

dad4 said:


> And I hope that Romney, Flake, or someone similar can build a loyal opposition worthy of the name.


Never going to happen.  Romney would need to command not only the center but the Trumpist populists and they were jeering him on the plane from Salt Lake calling him a traitor.  He's enemy No. 1 to them.  And what's worse for him is the left only gives him love when he's agreeing with them (remember "binders of women", or Russia is a threat, or the dog, or punching someone in high school)?

On the congressional/state level the Republicans will do well enough...they only need to run AGAINST Biden and the Ds sooner or later will give them cause to unite against something.  The Senate and Presidential level are more tricky (as we saw from Georgia)....Republicans need someone that can unite both wings and the reality that means someone far more dangerous and/or gifted than Trump (Trump isn't going away and will keep firebombing so anyone will need his nod to unite the Republicans).  Pence might make an effort to unite the Rs but without the support of the Trumpkins he can't do it (and they'll turn on him after yesterday)....it would require a threat on the left far more potent than either Joe Biden or even Harris.  As I wrote before, I'm not predicting it but wouldn't be surprised to see the Republican Party fall apart after this.

All this misunderstands where this is all coming from.  The Trumpkins are tired of the meritocracy that's been built up over the last 1/2 century: the Republicans that pander to big business and tax cuts for the rich, the health experts that make pronouncements on them while drawing their own salary, the Left that looks down at them for being ignorant hicks for "clinging to their guns and religion", the rich and powerful which made money on the pandemic hand over foot and got government bailouts (both now and in 08) while small business suffered, the Ivy League graduates which seem to control the levers of power including the judiciary, and the wokeness (particularly from sports and Hollywood figures) which tells them that what they think and do is wrong.   The left has some similar dynamics going on with the Bernie Bros.  On the BLM side, it's also years of feeling disregarded, unheard, and seemingly carrying a weight against forces that prevent you from getting ahead and getting a little respect.  On the Antifa side, if you see the kids, they aren't exactly the best looking, the most intelligent or athletic in the class...many of them look like kids that were bullied or who the cool kids would regard as "losers".  Just another run of the mill politician with an Ivy League degree meeting with their lobbyist friends and raking in another million bucks isn't going to do it.  This isn't just political...if it were it would end with Trump....it's societal and has been coming now for many years.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Ashli Babbit, American traitor.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 7, 2021)

"Long ago, we had an attitude of zero tolerance for terrorism, "we do not negotiate with terrorists," etc. One reason for this was the implicit understanding that negotiating with terrorism legitimizes it. Violence becomes an instrument of politics.

Some of us warned all last year that treating violence as acceptable, even laudable, from SOME people would mainstream it and touch off an arms race. Everyone would start getting the idea that only groups with a demonstrated capacity for violence are taken seriously."


"Either political violence *is rejected in total* - from everyone, *for any reason*, no matter who they are or what they believe - or it isn't. Once the tolerance level is no longer zero, we become locked in a vicious and endless struggle to control exactly what the level should be.

This is similar to the detestable way modern society handles racism. The tolerance level should be zero, but it isn't. Racism, prejudice, and discrimination are acceptable from SOME people toward SOME people. "Anti-racism" is an instrument of totalitarian power, not a principle.

Of course the particulars of protecting vital government facilities are different, *but in principle the law-abiding residents and shop owners of Kenosha should have the same expectation of protection from political violence as politicians in D.C. But they don't, do they?*

Every time a left-wing group gets violent, we're immediately told the protest was Mostly Peaceful, and the people who assembled peaceably - and their political leaders, no matter how incendiary their rhetoric - are 0% responsible for any injury or destruction that occurred.

We're told it's really all OUR fault for not listening to the grievances of the "protesters" who turned violent, even as we watch video of them merrily looting retail stores. We forced them to steal those TV sets by not yielding to their political demands!

Irresponsible political leaders who fanned the flames of left-wing violence and help the perpetrators escape accountability for their actions are never held to account, never told they must resign, rarely even advised to tone down their rhetoric.

And many - most - of the left-wing riots and killings of recent memory were based on falsehoods and misinformation. Outright lies were blasted by left-wing politicians and media without consequence, entirely BECAUSE they wanted to whip people into a frenzy.

And we were told all of that was fine, acceptable, even praiseworthy because their violence brought CHANGE and their lies illuminated DEEPER TRUTH. Okay, sure, we got everything about Mike Brown or Trayvon Martin's deaths wrong, but there were legit grievances to be addressed!

*We have to stop doing that. We have to insist that every quarter of our political spectrum renounce violence, and the willful incitement to violence, completely and absolutely. *No more cutesy-poo nudge-nudge wink-wink when lefties burn and pillage. No more double standards.

No more celebration of Noble Lies that illuminate Deeper Truth by the light of burning homes and businesses that were destroyed by mobs with Legitimate Grievances. No more indulgences for those who wantonly break the laws of the System That Failed Them.

*That is a principle, and we should all be able to agree on it, no matter what else we disagree on. Absolute zero tolerance for political violence is a message that can save lives and prevent destruction if we all say it together and demand our government acts accordingly.*

But if we decide the tolerance level for political violence will not be 0.0, then all that remains is for our armies to meet in the streets."









						House Dems Unanimously Block Resolution Condemning Violence and Rioting - Washington Free Beacon
					

House Democrats unanimously blocked a resolution condemning acts of violence and rioting—including the "deliberate targeting of law enforcement officers"—in the wake of George Floyd's death.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 7, 2021)

And part of what the excerpt of the article above refers to is the double standard...


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

nextgenathletics said:


> General takeaways from this thread and 2020 in general:
> 
> 
> 
> *5. EOTL is a buffoon.*


Yes.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2021)

The left really can't help themselves anymore than Trump can.  They finally have him cowed, staffers and cabinet resigning, and instead they pour gas on the fire by claiming impeachment or removal under the 25th and revenge against those who questioned the election like Cruz/Hawley.  

There's no grounds for removal under the 25th.  The 25th allows removal only if Trump is unable to execute his powers and duties.  It would set a horrible precedent for backdoor impeachment of other presidents their parties think are weak or don't go far enough.  It would allow Trump to regain some high ground by claiming illegal coup.

The impeachment thing Ds are circling around because it would prohibit him from running again.  But a. he has a right to counsel and there's no time to organize a trial before inauguration, b. do they really want Joe Biden's first 100 days taken up with this?, c. the grounds are weak....he didn't order his supporters to storm the capitol and expressly told them to go home (twice).  You can argue he incited things with his rhetoric and then failed to denounce them quick enough or tell them to stop quick enough but then you can hold the Ds to the same standard.  In fact, Kamala Harris is probably impeachable on the same grounds for what happened at the White House.  d.  it's undemocratic.  Let the voters decide.  The only thing this is going to serve to do is rile up his base even more and create even more political violence.  Right now the chance of left on right violence during the inauguration has decreased.....this would rachet it right back up to 100%


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The left really can't help themselves anymore than Trump can.  They finally have him cowed, staffers and cabinet resigning, and instead they pour gas on the fire by claiming impeachment or removal under the 25th and revenge against those who questioned the election like Cruz/Hawley.
> 
> There's no grounds for removal under the 25th.  The 25th allows removal only if Trump is unable to execute his powers and duties.  It would set a horrible precedent for backdoor impeachment of other presidents their parties think are weak or don't go far enough.  It would allow Trump to regain some high ground by claiming illegal coup.
> 
> The impeachment thing Ds are circling around because it would prohibit him from running again.  But a. he has a right to counsel and there's no time to organize a trial before inauguration, b. do they really want Joe Biden's first 100 days taken up with this?, c. the grounds are weak....he didn't order his supporters to storm the capitol and expressly told them to go home (twice).  You can argue he incited things with his rhetoric and then failed to denounce them quick enough or tell them to stop quick enough but then you can hold the Ds to the same standard.  In fact, Kamala Harris is probably impeachable on the same grounds for what happened at the White House.  d.  it's undemocratic.  Let the voters decide.  The only thing this is going to serve to do is rile up his base even more and create even more political violence.  Right now the chance of left on right violence during the inauguration has decreased.....this would rachet it right back up to 100%


That’s right, more gas. Trumpism needs to burn. We’ve had violent protests relating to racial oppression for more than 60 years, yet only now is the fabric of our democracy crumbling. It is not happening and has never happened, as a result of protests, demonstrations and even violence in response to racial oppression. It is only happening due to Trumpism, fueled in large part by their unhappiness that racial oppression and their overall bigotry isn’t working anymore.

All this b.s. about needing to ignore WHY the violence is ridiculous. One side engaged in violence to fight oppression, while the other is doing so to perpetuate it. One is trying to fight oppression, while the other is trying to destroy democracy and overthrow our government.  Not all violence is the same, and trying to make it seem so is just part of the problem. If you want to remedy the problem with society, you and your bothsides buddies must first understand and appreciate the reasons people are upset that leads to violence, even if you disagree with the violence itself.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> And part of what the excerpt of the article above refers to is the double standard...
> 
> View attachment 9883
> 
> View attachment 9884


And never mind that on a particular night in Portland, they attempted to block exits at the federal courthouse and then set the building on fire.  Sounds like attempted murder to me.

Don't get me wrong, there were buffoons present yesterday, and those that vandalized should be prosecuted to the extent of the law.  Antifa and extremist right wing groups have many things in common.  The average "antifa" and right wing dummy foot soldier are too stupid or to blinded to realize they are being used. 

I'm genuinely surprise more people weren't shot.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> That’s right, more gas. Trumpism needs to burn. We’ve had violent protests relating to racial oppression for more than 60 years, yet only now is the fabric of our democracy crumbling. It is not happening and has never happened, as a result of protests, demonstrations and even violence in response to racial oppression. It is only happening due to Trumpism, fueled in large part by their unhappiness that racial oppression and their overall bigotry isn’t working anymore.
> 
> All this b.s. about needing to ignore WHY the violence is ridiculous. One side engaged in violence to fight oppression, while the other is doing so to perpetuate it. One is trying to fight oppression, while the other is trying to destroy democracy and overthrow our government.  Not all violence is the same, and trying to make it seem so is just part of the problem. If you want to remedy the problem with society, you and your bothsides buddies must first understand and appreciate the reasons people are upset that leads to violence, even if you disagree with the violence itself.


I should add that the only other time the fabric of our society was torn apart also revolved around race. Until you accept that bigotry remains a huge problem in the U.S. and that it is wrong, liquor stores will continue to burn down on occasion, and your rebublican/magat party will  continue to pay the price. Have fun losers/whiners/bigots.”, ‘cuz the party is over for you.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Gosh, the amount of rationalizing in response to storming the Capitol by blaming BLM for starting it is pathetic. Your Capitol building was overrun by people trying to overthrow our government at the direction of a bright orange POS and all you can do is defend it because black people fight racism. Figures.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> That’s right, more gas. Trumpism needs to burn. We’ve had violent protests relating to racial oppression for more than 60 years, yet only now is the fabric of our democracy crumbling. It is not happening and has never happened, as a result of protests, demonstrations and even violence in response to racial oppression. It is only happening due to Trumpism, fueled in large part by their unhappiness that racial oppression and their overall bigotry isn’t working anymore.
> 
> All this b.s. about needing to ignore WHY the violence is ridiculous. One side engaged in violence to fight oppression, while the other is doing so to perpetuate it. One is trying to fight oppression, while the other is trying to destroy democracy and overthrow our government.  Not all violence is the same, and trying to make it seem so is just part of the problem. If you want to remedy the problem with society, you and your bothsides buddies must first understand and appreciate the reasons people are upset that leads to violence, even if you disagree with the violence itself.


I figured it out, you are Rambo, but not in a good way. But the similarities are there - hard to understand ramblings and slightly confused as to what is happening.  

Within the context that you are presenting, it's ok to try and murder Federal officers in a federal building over racial injustice?  We likely agree on George Floyd but are likely very far apart on Jacob Blake.  But I'm willing to listen to how your years of law enforcement experience  would have enabled you to have done things differently with Jacob Blake.  And please refrain from using your normally predictable lexicon.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

I don't pretend to have the answers, (although I know rioting/looting on either side is not it,) but what happened to being able to have civil discourse? Extremist (on both sides,) and the ability to spread conspiracy theories (thanks to social media) definitely fans the flames. 

This site for example- there are a few users that resort to name calling which is no different than a second grader saying "I know you are but what am I!!!" I do appreciate how the lot of this thread has been mature discussion, coming from folks with very different views and opinions. 

Fingers crossed that the bitch named 'Rona is erradicated soon and we can get back to bitching about soccer!


----------



## dad4 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> *That’s right, more gas. Trumpism needs to burn. *We’ve had violent protests relating to racial oppression for more than 60 years, yet only now is the fabric of our democracy crumbling. It is not happening and has never happened, as a result of protests, demonstrations and even violence in response to racial oppression. It is only happening due to Trumpism, fueled in large part by their unhappiness that racial oppression and their overall bigotry isn’t working anymore.
> 
> All this b.s. about needing to ignore WHY the violence is ridiculous. One side engaged in violence to fight oppression, while the other is doing so to perpetuate it. One is trying to fight oppression, while the other is trying to destroy democracy and overthrow our government.  Not all violence is the same, and trying to make it seem so is just part of the problem. If you want to remedy the problem with society, you and your bothsides buddies must first understand and appreciate the reasons people are upset that leads to violence, even if you disagree with the violence itself.


EOTL apparently means "Equal Of Trump, Leftist".

You'll see orange if you look in the mirror carefully enough.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I figured it out, you are Rambo, but not in a good way. But the similarities are there - hard to understand ramblings and slightly confused as to what is happening.
> 
> Within the context that you are presenting, it's ok to try and murder Federal officers in a federal building over racial injustice?  We likely agree on George Floyd but are likely very far apart on Jacob Blake.  But I'm willing to listen to how your years of law enforcement experience  would have enabled you to have done things differently with Jacob Blake.  And please refrain from using your normally predictable lexicon.


It’s never ok to murder people, but it is also important to understand *why *it is happening even if you disagree with *what *is happening. That is the main difference between us. You refuse to look at the why for whatever reason, maybe you don’t want to acknowledge what you see in the mirror, maybe you’re just an idiot, maybe your a trumpy McPiece o’ shit, maybe you are fine with overthrowing democracy if it means no one can exercise right to choose, I don’t know. But in refusing to consider why these two types of violence are occurring, all you do is normalize the racism, bigotry and desire to overthrow our entire system of government by equating it with the laudable goal of stamping out bigotry, and you do it simply because you don’t like the way each went about it. You also wrongly equate the two types of violence when they are incredibly different. Yes, rioting and looting a street is bad, but that is not even remotely close to rioting and looting the US Capitol.

Unlike you, I recognize there is systemic racism in the US, and that this is a main driving force behind the protests and occasional violence. Only then can you address and correct what is happening. I also recognize why our Capitol was overrun by people who want to overthrow our system of government, because magats are racist, don’t like that their bigoty way of life is coming to an end, and are easily duped by the purported leader of the free leader lying to them because his fragile can’t hold a glass of water ego can’t accept he’s a loser. Only when you understand why something is happening can you hope to make a difference. As long as you and others like you refuse to do so, however, the occasional liquor store will continue to burn. But we know the Capitol won’t get overrun again after Jan. 21 because people - who aren’t idiots like yourself who only want to whine - look beyond what happened, and instead look at why, so they can take appropriate action to address it.  Patriots like the Lincoln Project and Meidas Touch already have.  They have shamed ‘publicans who have the slightest amount of dignity to vote appropriately and remove people like the excremental yam and Q blondie bimbo of GA out of office. Shaming you douches is the only way that works. I wish y’all had more brains and empathy, but this way is kinda fun too I must admit.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I don't pretend to have the answers, (although I know rioting/looting on either side is not it,) but what happened to being able to have civil discourse? Extremist (on both sides,) and the ability to spread conspiracy theories (thanks to social media) definitely fans the flames.
> 
> This site for example- there are a few users that resort to name calling which is no different than a second grader saying "I know you are but what am I!!!" I do appreciate how the lot of this thread has been mature discussion, coming from folks with very different views and opinions.
> 
> Fingers crossed that the bitch named 'Rona is erradicated soon and we can get back to bitching about soccer!


There has never been civil discourse as it relates to race. That is just a farce and always has been.  I know white folk look back longingly to the “civil” days when black people knew their place and all, but that’s b.s. Shooting black people on bridges in Selma, hanging them from trees, beating them to death for sitting at a lunch counter or the wrong part of a bus, or allegedly looking at a white woman, denying equal employment and educational opportunities, none of that was ever civil.

If you or anyone wants civility, you need to first understand why we lack it, why we’ve always lacked it.  Then you’ll understand why people burn down Wendy’s and also storm the Capitol, and which is motivated by a laudable purpose even if you disagree with the methods, and which is for a despicable purpose that too many people here are far too willing to appease, rationalize and even defend. Then you will further understand why civility  is not possible and why the only hope is to force magats back into their swamps and under the rocks where cockroaches should hide.

Jean Valjean is not the same as the squash-colored  s**tbag although both stole. The 1935 Berlin Riots had a reprehensible purpose, while Nat Turner’s Rebellion did not. Saying all riots are the same and the reason they occurred is irrelevant is utter crap.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> It’s never ok to murder people, but it is also important to understand *why *it is happening even if you disagree with *what *is happening. That is the main difference between us. You refuse to look at the why for whatever reason, maybe you don’t want to acknowledge what you see in the mirror, maybe you’re just an idiot, maybe your a trumpy McPiece o’ shit, maybe you are fine with overthrowing democracy if it means no one can exercise right to choose, I don’t know. But in refusing to consider why these two types of violence are occurring, all you do is normalize the racism, bigotry and desire to overthrow our entire system of government by equating it with the laudable goal of stamping out bigotry, and you do it simply because you don’t like the way each went about it. You also wrongly equate the two types of violence when they are incredibly different. Yes, rioting and looting a street is bad, but that is not even remotely close to rioting and looting the US Capitol.
> 
> Unlike you, I recognize there is systemic racism in the US, and that this is a main driving force behind the protests and occasional violence. Only then can you address and correct what is happening. I also recognize why our Capitol was overrun by people who want to overthrow our system of government, because magats are racist, don’t like that their bigoty way of life is coming to an end, and are easily duped by the purported leader of the free leader lying to them because his fragile can’t hold a glass of water ego can’t accept he’s a loser. Only when you understand why something is happening can you hope to make a difference. As long as you and others like you refuse to do so, however, the occasional liquor store will continue to burn. But we know the Capitol won’t get overrun again after Jan. 21 because people - who aren’t idiots like yourself who only want to whine - look beyond what happened, and instead look at why, so they can take appropriate action to address it.  Patriots like the Lincoln Project and Meidas Touch already have.  They have shamed ‘publicans who have the slightest amount of dignity to vote appropriately and remove people like the excremental yam and Q blondie bimbo of GA out of office. Shaming you douches is the only way that works. I wish y’all had more brains and empathy, but this way is kinda fun too I must admit.


Congratulations on another stoopid post.  Fortunately for you you know nothing about me and your ridiculous attribution clearly describes who you are - nice job.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if I was a black man (notice I didn't say African American) who understands what it's like to live with bigotry and racism - because it does exist (we agree).  In your world it's a pervasive thing that should keep me down all the time and make me rely on people like you to save me.  You are not here to save me, BLM for sure has no idea how to save me (they'd rather burn down the economy and shit on their own people).  

By the way, I am a Black Man who is an American.  I'm not from Africa, have only visited,, but not on vacation, and where I was it wasn't very nice. Your pathetic attempt to paint everything with bigotry and racism is not surprising.  You are truly the soccer forum Rambo and you are quite entertaining.  Seems like you've also been duped by the Lincoln Project and Meida Touch.  I wonder how much money they made off of you.  Your reference to them is hilarious and it demonstrates the confined space that you live in.  

ANTIFA and BLM have duped you and those of your ilk, much like Trumpers have been duped by Qanon.  Your description of Trumpers is rather accurate, but it applies to both far sides of the fence.  

but it's ok, resort to name calling, it's your strength.  But the joke is really on you.  And I still won't ignore you, not just yet.  It's nice watching you froth at the mouth and repeating yourself over and over.  You demonstrate a clear grasp of words but severely lack intellect. 

And lastly, if you happen to be a black person, I'm ashamed.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2021)

Another escalation.  Simon & Schuster has decided to cancel Hawley's book on the Tyranny of Big Tech.  This is just going to further the division cultural warriors like Ben Shapiro have been urging for separate publishers, tech, and film/television.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> also storm the Capitol, and which is motivated by a laudable purpose even if you disagree with the methods, and which is for a despicable purpose that too many people here are far too willing to appease, rationalize and even defend.


 You are a human sound bite.  Where has anyone (and If you show me, I'll stand corrected) rationalized and defended the criminal activity that occurred yesterday. The protest yesterday was peaceful until it wasn't.  Just like the summer protests.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Another escalation.  Simon & Schuster has decided to cancel Hawley's book on the Tyranny of Big Tech.  This is just going to further the division cultural warriors like Ben Shapiro have been urging for separate publishers, tech, and film/television.


Great, let the magats create their own publishing house. Parler is such a great competitor to Twitter, I’m sure Q Publishing will be a smash hit. 

Qs aren’t cultural warriors, btw, they’re s**tbags who are learning the hard way what the free market does to people like them. The Burnt Orange Baboon propped them up for a while, but their time is done. Cockroaches don’t have the dough for books after buying their matching sandals and tactical vests anyway. 

Oh, and Lincoln Project is coming for Hawley; he’s done after his remaining stint never serving on a real committee because even Moscow Mitch thinks he’s a douche.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You are a human sound bite.  Where has anyone (and If you show me, I'll stand corrected) rationalized and defended the criminal activity that occurred yesterday. The protest yesterday was peaceful until it wasn't.  Just like the summer protests.


Scroll up to every person equating the attempted coup with BLM protests.


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## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Scroll up to every person equating the attempted coup with BLM protests.


Your problem is that you think what happened yesterday was an attempted coup.  It's a silly comparison and wreaks of partisan rhetoric.  What happened yesterday was vandalism and wanton destruction led by a loud minority too stoopid to realize that what they were doing was counterproductive to what the intent of their original protest was about.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Congratulations on another stoopid post.  Fortunately for you you know nothing about me and your ridiculous attribution clearly describes who you are - nice job.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if I was a black man (notice I didn't say African American) who understands what it's like to live with bigotry and racism - because it does exist (we agree).  In your world it's a pervasive thing that should keep me down all the time and make me rely on people like you to save me.  You are not here to save me, BLM for sure has no idea how to save me (they'd rather burn down the economy and shit on their own people).
> 
> By the way, I am a Black Man who is an American.  I'm not from Africa, have only visited,, but not on vacation, and where I was it wasn't very nice. Your pathetic attempt to paint everything with bigotry and racism is not surprising.  You are truly the soccer forum Rambo and you are quite entertaining.  Seems like you've also been duped by the Lincoln Project and Meida Touch.  I wonder how much money they made off of you.  Your reference to them is hilarious and it demonstrates the confined space that you live in.
> 
> ...


“I really don’t care, do u?”. 

So much fun that the Burnt Orange Baboon and Bimbo wife set us free from even having to pretend to be civil, eh?  I think the term “soccer forum Rambo” is apt, however, and will probably use it, so thx. It is my goal to shove the lack of civility that they thought was so great for the last four years up every magat a** I can find. Maybe they’ll learn something from it, although that’s unlikely, in which case I’m happy to keep rubbing in their faces how they’re whiney loser Karens who contributed to an attempted coup and the end of democracy.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Your problem is that you think what happened yesterday was an attempted coup.  It's a silly comparison and wreaks of partisan rhetoric.  What happened yesterday was vandalism and wanton destruction led by a loud minority too stoopid to realize that what they were doing was counterproductive to what the intent of their original protest was about.


Honestly, you are correct to an extent, and the terminology is mostly for effect. That said, each of them deserves 10 years in prison - other than the dead one who deserves to be dead of course. 

But don’t for a second think this was nothing more than a stupid mob of goons who caused property damage. One of them had to be shot to death to protect our congress men and women. What they did also has a massive negative impact on our world standing and, combined with the prior storming of the MI statehouse and attempted takeover in GA, was absolutely intended to subvert democracy. Also do not pretend this wasn’t an element of Bloated Bunker Boy’s attempted coup. What a p.o.s. sore loser, am I right?


----------



## watfly (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Honestly, you are correct to an extent, and the terminology is mostly for effect. That said, each of them deserves 10 years in prison - other than the dead one who deserves to be dead of course.


I wouldn't be opposed to sedition charges (not sure if it legally fits though) for the ones that vandalized congressional offices or breached the floor of the Senate or House.   While I won't go as far as saying that the woman deserved to be shot, that was a plausible outcome as a result of her actions.


----------



## watfly (Jan 7, 2021)

watfly said:


> I wouldn't be opposed to sedition charges (not sure if it legally fits though) for the ones that vandalized congressional offices or breached the floor of the Senate or House.   While I won't go as far as saying that the woman deserved to be shot, that was a plausible outcome as a result of her actions.


I'd also say the jackass sitting in Pelosi's office with that stupid smirk on his face deserves to be Bubba's wife in prison.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

I think I said earlier in the thread that why the hell anyone would climb through a broken window, at the WH, and not expect to be shot just shows their level of insanity. 

So EOTL- you're ok with the BLM protestors looting small business, (that have ZERO ability to help their cause in the first place,) stealing things like shoes, breaking windows and causing total destruction to the corner cafe that's been there for years- all in the name of their cause? Because 100% I am NOT- just like I was sure as shit not ok with yesterday. Not saying two wrongs make a right, just seriously trying to understand your position, no disrespect.

And I really wish you would not assume that everyone here is a "White Karen"


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

watfly said:


> I'd also say the jackass sitting in Pelosi's office with that stupid smirk on his face deserves to be Bubba's wife in prison.


Also the dude who stole a podium and walked out smiling, like nothing to see here....


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I think I said earlier in the thread that why the hell anyone would climb through a broken window, at the WH, and not expect to be shot just shows their level of insanity.
> 
> So EOTL- you're ok with the BLM protestors looting small business, (that have ZERO ability to help their cause in the first place,) stealing things like shoes, breaking windows and causing total destruction to the corner cafe that's been there for years- all in the name of their cause? Because 100% I am NOT- just like I was sure as shit not ok with yesterday. Not saying two wrongs make a right, just seriously trying to understand your position, no disrespect.
> 
> And I really wish you would not assume that everyone here is a "White Karen"


I have never once said I am ok with BLM protesters looting a business. I have said I understand why it is happening, and that context is important to understand and appreciate if you want change. Until you understand the differences between why BLM protests happen and sometimes devolve into vandalism and the seditionists who disgraced
our Capitol, there’s nothing for us to talk about, because it means you’re not very thoughtful and have no interest in change, you’re just another whiner who is making things worse.

I’ve been pretty up front about why I belittle and mock people as I do. There is no other way to squelch these racist, denialist, obnoxious magats.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 7, 2021)

AP is reporting a Capitol hill police officer injured yesterday has died.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Honestly, you are correct to an extent, and the terminology is mostly for effect. That said, each of them deserves 10 years in prison - other than the dead one who deserves to be dead of course.
> 
> But don’t for a second think this was nothing more than a stupid mob of goons who caused property damage. One of them had to be shot to death to protect our congress men and women. What they did also has a massive negative impact on our world standing and, combined with the prior storming of the MI statehouse and attempted takeover in GA, was absolutely intended to subvert democracy. Also do not pretend this wasn’t an element of Bloated Bunker Boy’s attempted coup. What a p.o.s. sore loser, am I right?


You are dramatic.  She wasn't shot to death in the defense of anyone, she was just shot to death, likely by a police officer who has never drawn their service weapon on anger.  Sucks to be him or her as well.  She was being pulled back out of the window and likely didn't even present a threat to anyone.  Maybe we'll get the details of the investigation or maybe not. 

They will all get what they deserve, this is easy hunting for the FBI.  

But you like to revert back to talking points.  This wasn't a coup, the undertakers of a coup usually carry more than flags to storm a building full of armed law enforcement officers and within spitting distance of responding resources.  This is an example of poor judgement, ignorance, and criminal behavior.  At least the rioters over the summer got something out of vandalizing the Magnificent Mile in Chicago - they at least had better business sense.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I have never once said I am ok with BLM protesters looting a business. I have said I understand why it is happening, and that context is important to understand and appreciate if you want change. Until you understand the differences between why BLM protests happen and sometimes devolve into vandalism and the seditionists who disgraced
> our Capitol, there’s nothing for us to talk about, because it means you’re not very thoughtful and have no interest in change, you’re just another whiner who is making things worse.
> 
> I’ve been pretty up front about why I belittle and mock people as I do. There is no other way to squelch these racist, denialist, obnoxious magats.


Fair enough, thank you for the explanation.


----------



## notintheface (Jan 7, 2021)

It would be a terrible shame if the guy holding the Confederate battle flag in the Capitol was found dead of suicide by two shots to the back of the head.


----------



## espola (Jan 7, 2021)

notintheface said:


> It would be a terrible shame if the guy holding the Confederate battle flag in the Capitol was found dead of suicide by two shots to the back of the head.


One of my Vermont sources pointed out that the picture of Confederate flag man was taken right in front of the portrait of Justin Morrrill, one of the most ardent abolitionists in the 1850s and '60s, and one of the founders of the Republican Party.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> AP is reporting a Capitol hill police officer injured yesterday has died.


This means all those f**kers should be charged with felony murder. Every single one of them.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You are dramatic.  She wasn't shot to death in the defense of anyone, she was just shot to death, likely by a police officer who has never drawn their service weapon on anger.  Sucks to be him or her as well.  She was being pulled back out of the window and likely didn't even present a threat to anyone.  Maybe we'll get the details of the investigation or maybe not.
> 
> They will all get what they deserve, this is easy hunting for the FBI.
> 
> But you like to revert back to talking points.  This wasn't a coup, the undertakers of a coup usually carry more than flags to storm a building full of armed law enforcement officers and within spitting distance of responding resources.  This is an example of poor judgement, ignorance, and criminal behavior.  At least the rioters over the summer got something out of vandalizing the Magnificent Mile in Chicago - they at least had better business sense.


She absolutely constituted a grave threat. Leading an angry mob trying to break down the door to the chamber so they could get to congressmen and women is as grave as it gets from the correct perspective, namely those inside the room and tasked with ensuring the lives of our elected officials.  She got what she deserved, and a lot more than George Floyd and Breonna Taylor deserved.  It’s absolute bs to claim that white magats aren’t a grave threat until they actually kill someone. The standard for black people seems to require nothing more than holding a bag of chips. Or, as the stay puft marmalade man is fond of saying, the standard for black people is “when the looting starts the shooting starts.” 

And yes it was an attempted coup. Simply because it was incited by an incompetent, incontinent imbecile who can’t even walk down a ramp, and perpetrated by a bunch of buffoons most of whom are missing half their teeth and all of them an IQ over 90 does not change what it was. It was an attempt to subvert our system of government, period. They were there to stop the duly elected president of the U.S. from being able to take office.

As ridiculously stupid as magats are, minimizing the egregiousness of their actions based on the incompetence in their actions doesn’t change what it was.  I’m happy if they go with firing squad instead of 10 years.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 7, 2021)

EOTL said:


> She absolutely constituted a grave threat. Leading an angry mob trying to break down the door to the chamber so they could get to congressmen and women is as grave as it gets from the correct perspective, namely those inside the room and tasked with ensuring the lives of our elected officials.  She got what she deserved, and a lot more than George Floyd and Breonna Taylor deserved.  It’s absolute bs to claim that white magats aren’t a grave threat until they actually kill someone. The standard for black people seems to require nothing more than holding a bag of chips. Or, as the stay puft marmalade man is fond of saying, the standard for black people is “when the looting starts the shooting starts.”
> 
> And yes it was an attempted coup. Simply because it was incited by an incompetent, incontinent imbecile who can’t even walk down a ramp, and perpetrated by a bunch of buffoons most of whom are missing half their teeth and all of them an IQ over 90 does not change what it was. It was an attempt to subvert our system of government, period. They were there to stop the duly elected president of the U.S. from being able to take office.
> 
> As ridiculously stupid as magats are, minimizing the egregiousness of their actions based on the incompetence in their actions doesn’t change what it was.  I’m happy if they go with firing squad instead of 10 years.


I agree with a lot of this. And I think most here would.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 7, 2021)

espola said:


> One of my Vermont sources pointed out that the picture of Confederate flag man was taken right in front of the portrait of Justin Morrrill, one of the most ardent abolitionists in the 1850s and '60s, and one of the founders of the Republican Party.


The “party of Lincoln” is the one with the members who support white supremacy and parade around the Capitol with confederate flags. That’s your party ‘publicans and there’s no denying it now. On behalf of honest Abe, f**k you, and stop using my name.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

What an embarrassment. Unless you've been hiding your head in the sand it's obvious Trump has been goading his followers into being more violent as a negotiating tactic to avoid saying he lost the election. But letting it get to the level of the sacking of Congressional building there needs to be a response. 

Although I'm confident the feckless democrats and unethical republican leaders will find a way to make sure they do nothing other then spend millions on lawyers (working at big donor law firms).


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> She absolutely constituted a grave threat. Leading an angry mob trying to break down the door to the chamber so they could get to congressmen and women is as grave as it gets from the correct perspective, namely those inside the room and tasked with ensuring the lives of our elected officials.  She got what she deserved, and a lot more than George Floyd and Breonna Taylor deserved.  It’s absolute bs to claim that white magats aren’t a grave threat until they actually kill someone. The standard for black people seems to require nothing more than holding a bag of chips. Or, as the stay puft marmalade man is fond of saying, the standard for black people is “when the looting starts the shooting starts.”
> 
> And yes it was an attempted coup. Simply because it was incited by an incompetent, incontinent imbecile who can’t even walk down a ramp, and perpetrated by a bunch of buffoons most of whom are missing half their teeth and all of them an IQ over 90 does not change what it was. It was an attempt to subvert our system of government, period. They were there to stop the duly elected president of the U.S. from being able to take office.
> 
> As ridiculously stupid as magats are, minimizing the egregiousness of their actions based on the incompetence in their actions doesn’t change what it was.  *I’m happy if they go with firing squad instead of 10 years.*


How brave of you to continue to rely on racism to push your agenda and create a narrative based on talking points.  

Brave words spoken from someone behind a keyboard.  I wonder if you have the courage to personally pull the trigger to support your cause.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> How brave of you to continue to rely on racism to push your agenda and create a narrative based on talking points.
> 
> Brave words spoken from someone behind a keyboard.  I wonder if you have the courage to personally pull the trigger to support your cause.


Courage?  Not sure I follow.
Trump own people said he lost the election, so sacking the nations capital because 'Trump doesn't like losing' strikes me as more being grounded in stupidity then courage...

Moreover look how quick Trump is backing down trying to save himself. He called all those people out for a trial by combat.  And now that the shite has hit the fan his only concern is saving himself.  Courage... hahah


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

Do you think Trump promised to take down that Tweet about how ugly Mrs. Cruz is- so long as he supports Trump during this dark period? But really though, what type of man fights for a president who still has tweets ripping on his wife publicly out there on his twitter page. What wouldn't this clown do to for power if he's okay with that.

Cruz is a seemingly smart, well spoken individual.  But damn when it comes to political game theory... some of his maneuvering really leaves me scratching my head?  Sort of like that time he cheered on a government shutdown, I just don't see the endgame here.









						Ted Cruz says he’d object to Biden electors even knowing about riot, blasts Trump for ‘reckless’ rhetoric
					

WASHINGTON – Sen. Ted Cruz faced ongoing fallout Thursday for the riot at the U.S. Capitol, with never-Trumpers and some conservatives joining Democrats in...



					www.dallasnews.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Courage?  Not sure I follow.
> Trump own people said he lost the election, so sacking the nations capital because 'Trump doesn't like losing' strikes me as more being grounded in stupidity then courage...
> 
> Moreover look how quick Trump is backing down trying to save himself. He called all those people out for a trial by combat.  And now that the shite has hit the fan his only concern is saving himself.  Courage... hahah


I'm not following what you are trying to say.  I'm referring to someone behind a keyboard talking about sending someone before the firing squad.  It's a dumb statement filled with hot air, typical of online forums. Tuff guys with fingers who can type really fast.

What happened at the Capitol Building is shameful. What happened over the summer is shameful.  We are a divided and tired country.  Both sides have more in common than they care to admit.  @ EOTL's fervent hatred of "magats" is equally matched by someone in a "fly over state" who feels their way of life is being threatened by certain ideology.  Never shall the two meet as long their saviors spew divisive rhetoric. 

  As far as Trump is concerned, his time has come.  His legacy will not be a good one.  I'm not going to waste my time with partisan political attacks or rhetoric, I'll leave that to the hacks.  Elected officials are mainly about themselves.  If you believe any different ,well, that's on you.  And if you think they are going to provide you salvation, think again.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

I'm not sure if impeachment/25th amendment is a good strategy or not, but I don't think you can compare what happened at the capital to BLM protests.  I know it's easy to fall into that, especially for right leaning MAGA types, but it's apples and oranges.  You have one group that was protesting/rioting due to 100s of years of systemic racism and police brutality versus a group of brainwashed MAGA/Qanon types instigated by a standing president of the US.  Trump has literally been grooming these people.  It's just not the same no matter how you try and paint it.  This isn't justifying violence or looting, @EOTL is correct in saying the "Why" is very important here.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I'm not following what you are trying to say.  I'm referring to someone behind a keyboard talking about sending someone before the firing squad.  It's a dumb statement filled with hot air, typical of online forums. Tuff guys with fingers who can type really fast.
> 
> What happened at the Capitol Building is shameful. What happened over the summer is shameful.  We are a divided and tired country.  Both sides have more in common than they care to admit.  @ EOTL's fervent hatred of "magats" is equally matched by someone in a "fly over state" who feels their way of life is being threatened by certain ideology.  Never shall the two meet as long their saviors spew divisive rhetoric.
> 
> As far as Trump is concerned, his time has come.  His legacy will not be a good one.  I'm not going to waste my time with partisan political attacks or rhetoric, I'll leave that to the hacks.  Elected officials are mainly about themselves.  If you believe any different ,well, that's on you.  And if you think they are going to provide you salvation, think again.


I agree that the violence in the summer was shameful, just as the violence at the Capitol Building was shameful. I don't think that anyone, as is now happening, should correlate the two. They are distinctly different events, perpetuated for distinctly different reasons.

I find it odd that more has not been made of all the election fraud rhetoric that has been ongoing through the summer by T. I find it odd that more has not been made of the fact that T started this when he was elected and lost the popular vote. I find it odd that more has not been made of the commission T setup, as President, and filled with hacks, and which found zero evidence to support his lies.

The utter stupidity, and I can only call them that, of the people who violently forced their way into the Capitol Building is frankly staggering. They literally live streamed their illegal behavior. They took pictures of themselves and publicly boasted about their illegal actions. They obviously felt (and hopefully don't still feel, but they are stupid so who knows) that they could do what they want, up to and including breaking the law with complete impunity.

T's legacy is fucked. There's no way he can walk this back. His kids political ambitions are fucked now too. They participated in this too. His own supporters are turning on him due to his latest recording ... he doesn't even have the balls to face the press, ffs. T's supporters remind me of the scene from "The Life of Brian" when John Cleese's character is asked how he knows "Brian" is the Messiah - his reply, "Because I've followed enough of them in my time" (or words to that effect). Unfortunately, his "supporters" will now move on to the next nutter.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I'm not following what you are trying to say.  I'm referring to someone behind a keyboard talking about sending someone before the firing squad.  It's a dumb statement filled with hot air, typical of online forums. Tuff guys with fingers who can type really fast.
> 
> What happened at the Capitol Building is shameful. What happened over the summer is shameful.  We are a divided and tired country.  Both sides have more in common than they care to admit.  @ EOTL's fervent hatred of "magats" is equally matched by someone in a "fly over state" who feels their way of life is being threatened by certain ideology.  Never shall the two meet as long their saviors spew divisive rhetoric.
> 
> As far as Trump is concerned, his time has come.  His legacy will not be a good one.  I'm not going to waste my time with partisan political attacks or rhetoric, I'll leave that to the hacks.  Elected officials are mainly about themselves.  If you believe any different ,well, that's on you.  And if you think they are going to provide you salvation, think again.


You just can’t help yourself with the bothsides-ism can you? There was an attempted coup. A very specific and well-defined group desecrated out Capitol incited by a deranged cheeto, who is trying desperately to take down democracy because his itty bitty, uh, ego can’t accept that he’s a s**tbag loser. Yet here you are once again equating their behavior to those who criticize it. BS. You are part of the problem. 

You’re not exactly a tuff guy @happy9. You’re even more pathetic than the magats you are kinda sorta criticizing.  You don’t get to spend 4 years bothsides-ing everything and blaming BLM for causing white supremacist magats to storm out Capitol. So pathetic to jump off the tangerine titanic at the bitter end like his sad little cabinet members and Lady G, and then tell those who knew all along and suffered their abuse and for four years that we need to play nice. Where were you years ago when it was plain fro anyone with a brain to see what was happening? You were banging out paltry excuses for magat behavior, rationalizing their abhorrent by claiming it’s the same on bothsides. Even now you can’t even state your opposition to a coup without throwing blame at BLM or anyone who criticizes a side that cannot be reasonably defended. You should change your handle to @collaboratorman.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I'm not following what you are trying to say.  I'm referring to someone behind a keyboard talking about sending someone before the firing squad.  It's a dumb statement filled with hot air, typical of online forums. Tuff guys with fingers who can type really fast.
> 
> What happened at the Capitol Building is shameful. What happened over the summer is shameful.  We are a divided and tired country.  Both sides have more in common than they care to admit.  @ EOTL's fervent hatred of "magats" is equally matched by someone in a "fly over state" who feels their way of life is being threatened by certain ideology.  Never shall the two meet as long their saviors spew divisive rhetoric.
> 
> As far as Trump is concerned, his time has come.  His legacy will not be a good one.  I'm not going to waste my time with partisan political attacks or rhetoric, I'll leave that to the hacks.  Elected officials are mainly about themselves.  If you believe any different ,well, that's on you.  And if you think they are going to provide you salvation, think again.


Copy. Sorry I jumped into the conversation without reading enough back enough posts.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

To @Grace T.'s point, it's not just Trump though.  I blame Reagan and his dismantling of sound social programs such as public education, failed trickle down economics, or his tax overhaul.  Reagan did do some good things, but a lot of his policies had a significant negative impact on where we are today.  Obviously Dems could've fixed these problems and didn't.  They're to blame as well. 

I just wish folks would look at politicians and ask "What's in it for them?".  Sadly people don't do enough of this and if they truly looked at this, they'd see that folks like Sanders and AOC, are the minority who seem to truly care about their constituents.  Most politicians are grifters and have some angle that benefits themselves, both dems and repubs.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I agree that the violence in the summer was shameful, just as the violence at the Capitol Building was shameful. I don't think that anyone, as is now happening, should correlate the two. They are distinctly different events, perpetuated for distinctly different reasons.
> 
> I find it odd that more has not been made of all the election fraud rhetoric that has been ongoing through the summer by T. I find it odd that more has not been made of the fact that T started this when he was elected and lost the popular vote. I find it odd that more has not been made of the commission T setup, as President, and filled with hacks, and which found zero evidence to support his lies.
> 
> ...


I agree about not correlating the two. However I do think it is worth taking a moment to reaffirm that no one's life here in America is bad enough they need to be looting and rioting.

If Trump hadn't seen how eager leaders in Seattle, Portland, etc  were to bow in the face of looters and rioting he never would have dared to try this.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

We really need to stop working so much with China. Trump was right on this one.

Right now major companies are fighting against legislation related to labor conditions in China. They don't want the legislation to pass. They like their factories in China. 

Lets stop transferring tech to them. Let us stop having them as a major component of our supply chain for many rather important things. 

They are close to finishing up work on their 3rd carrier with a 4th carrier already under construction. 

They are a communist dictatorship. Lots of people seem to forget that. 

Meanwhile in a corner of China....it is not just internment camps. 

"China is forcing women to be sterilised or fitted with contraceptive devices in Xinjiang in an apparent attempt to limit the population of Muslim Uighurs, according to new research."

*








						China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population, report says
					

A report says China is carrying out a campaign of forced birth control to limit the minority group.



					www.bbc.com
				



*
And just the other day...the Chinese Embassy in the US tweeted this little lovely thing related to what the above talks about. How charming that these women are now free....

**


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm not sure if impeachment/25th amendment is a good strategy or not, but I don't think you can compare what happened at the capital to BLM protests.  I know it's easy to fall into that, especially for right leaning MAGA types, but it's apples and oranges.  You have one group that was protesting/rioting due to 100s of years of systemic racism and police brutality versus a group of people brainwashed MAGA/Qanon types instigated by a standing president of the US.  It's just not the same no matter how you try and paint it.  This isn't justifying violence or looting, @EOTL is correct in saying the "Why" is very important here.


You are falling into the same trap many are.  Just like BLM had the constitutional right to protest racism and police brutality, people who believe there was unfair election had the right to gather and protest. I personally think it' dumb and yes Trump perpetuated the idea that a fraudulent election had occurred,.  It's convenient for Trump's political opponents to casually say that he directed the sacking of the capitol building.  It sounds ominous, and scary, and paints the correct political picture for many. But it's factually incorrect but a powerful aphrodisiac for people who want to believe it.  There were 40,000 people who attended the rally/protest.  The rally had a permit.  40,000 people did not enter the capitol building.

 It's actually dumb to romanticize  the idea that the capitol was sacked/stormed by a group of fervent followers of an ideological leader.  Paint them for what they are - dumbass criminals taking advantage of a situation.  Very much like the violent few who took advantage of BLM protests to advance their economic standing. Prosecute them to the extent of the law.  

There were elected officials during the summer that publicly condoned violence and destruction - go look it up.  Their justification for wanton destruction of private and government property was ideologically driven.  That's a fine way to get people to come over to your cause.

Both sides are culpable. Find middle ground, marginalize fringe elements.  Unfortunately, most elected officials are not in the interest of looking out for you.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> To @Grace T.'s point, it's not just Trump though.  I blame Reagan and his dismantling of sound social programs such as public education, failed trickle down economics, or his tax overhaul.  Reagan did do some good things, but a lot of his policies had a significant negative impact on where we are today.  Obviously Dems could've fixed these problems and didn't.  They're to blame as well.
> 
> I just wish folks would look at politicians and ask "What's in it for them?".  Sadly people don't do enough of this and if they truly looked at this, they'd see that folks like Sanders and AOC, are the minority who seem to truly care about their constituents.  Most politicians are grifters and have some angle that benefits themselves, both dems and repubs.


Yes but... I don't think enough consideration is given to the downside of the New Deal 'social programs'. People didn't just one day wake up and say let's try trickle down economics.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Yes but... I don't think enough consideration is given to the downside of the New Deal 'social programs'. People didn't just one day wake up and say let's try trickle down economics.


I mean that's precisely what Reaganomics was.









						Reaganomics - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I agree about not correlating the two. However I do think it is worth taking a moment to reaffirm that no one's life here in America is bad enough they need to be looting and rioting.
> 
> If Trump hadn't seen how eager leaders in Seattle, Portland, etc  were to bow in the face of looters and rioting he never would have dared to try this.


Bothsides-ism. If you aren’t going to correlate the two, then don’t spend the next two paragraphs doing exactly that.  Why is it that people are so compelled to criticize BLM when magats overran and looted the U.S. Capitol?  It’s pathetic to argue that it was bad the magats did it, but hey look others do it it so....

You are also wrong that no one’s life is so bad that rioting is the answer, although that is beside the point. You never had to live a life that started in poverty because of your skin color, grew up denied the same educational and then employment opportunities due to your skin color, have been tepeatedly mistreated by law enforcement because of your skin color, and then keep hearing from people like you after you put down your cocktail and step away from your backyard grill in the OC long enough to tell them that it can’t possibly have been that bad, you need to get over it.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean that's precisely what Reaganomics was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You are falling into the same trap many are.  Just like BLM had the constitutional right to protest racism and police brutality, people who believe there was unfair election had the right to gather and protest. I personally think it' dumb and yes Trump perpetuated the idea that a fraudulent election had occurred,.  It's convenient for Trump's political opponents to casually say that he directed the sacking of the capitol building.  It sounds ominous, and scary, and paints the correct political picture for many. But it's factually incorrect but a powerful aphrodisiac for people who want to believe it.  There were 40,000 people who attended the rally/protest.  The rally had a permit.  40,000 people did not enter the capitol building.
> 
> It's actually dumb to romanticize  the idea that the capitol was sacked/stormed by a group of fervent followers of an ideological leader.  Paint them for what they are - dumbass criminals taking advantage of a situation.  Very much like the violent few who took advantage of BLM protests to advance their economic standing. Prosecute them to the extent of the law.
> 
> ...


l suppose admitting it was trumpanzees who looted our Capitol, and not undercover Antifa sleeper cell agents wearing magat hats in a false flag operation, is progress. How’s that for conciliation?  

Now get your s**t together and denounce what happened without trying to magat-splain that it wasn’t so bad and everyone does it anyway.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> We really need to stop working so much with China. Trump was right on this one.
> 
> Right now major companies are fighting against legislation related to labor conditions in China. They don't want the legislation to pass. They like their factories in China.
> 
> ...


Well this is a desperate and sad attempt to change the subject coming from a magat who really, really doesn’t want to talk about the subject at hand.  His buddies just looted the Capitol but, hey look, China!


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean that's precisely what Reaganomics was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right. And if we've hit the point where the pendulum starts swinging back it becomes a question of how far? Personally I would say going back to a model that was already rejected... is maybe not the solution we are looking for.

So while I'm not saying it's not time for a correction in course. I just would like to see some new 'better' answers.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Bothsides-ism. If you aren’t going to correlate the two, then don’t spend the next two paragraphs doing exactly that.  Why is it that people are so compelled to criticize BLM when magats overran and looted the U.S. Capitol?  It’s pathetic to argue that it was bad the magats did it, but hey look others do it it so....
> 
> You are also wrong that no one’s life is so bad that rioting is the answer, although that is beside the point. You never had to live a life that started in poverty because of your skin color, grew up denied the same educational and then employment opportunities due to your skin color, have been tepeatedly mistreated by law enforcement because of your skin color, and then keep hearing from people like you after you put down your cocktail and step away from your backyard grill in the OC long enough to tell them that it can’t possibly have been that bad, you need to get over it.


Actually I was born in the IE, dirt poor.  So the feel guilty stuff doesn't work on me. 

Life is hard.  Your owed nothing. However you were lucky enough to have been born in a country where hard work and a little risk taking will allow you to rise as far as you want to go.  That's the world I want to get back to.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Sadly people don't do enough of this and if they truly looked at this, they'd see that folks like Sanders and AOC, are the minority who seem to truly care about their constituents.


You don't want them in charge. Sanders has always been a fan of the Soviet Union, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc. The policies those countries had/have terrible results for the people. AOC is as economically illiterate as Sanders. Her proposals will not help people in the least.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Well this is a desperate and sad attempt to change the subject coming from a magat who really, really doesn’t want to talk about the subject at hand.  His buddies just looted the Capitol but, hey look, China!


Subject at hand? 

Ok try this. 

During the summer riots Dem politicians either encouraged or remained silent. It suited their interests. 

At the same time Repubs said enough of this. Protest is fine, riots are not. Silence from the left. As a matter of fact the House dems in unity all refused to vote on a resolution condemning the violence. 

The other day violence/riot at the capital. Dems now are outraged. Repubs immediately condemned the actions. 

One party you might say is consistent on its condemnation of violence. The other only does so when the violence is not committed by their constituents. 

Violence/riots have no place. It doesn't matter what the politics are. The standard should be we as a nation should not accept violence or make excuses of it. Unfortunately over the summer months I saw lots of politicians and news organizations excuse violence. When those groups now try to take the high ground...screw them. They have no credibility on the issue. 

That said...violence/riots are not acceptable. Prosecute those who broke into the capital grounds. I would like to see the summer rioters prosecuted as well. Almost none were. Matter of fact many Dem groups spent money bailing out people arrested. 

You seem to like to ignore your own double standard amigo.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> You don't want them in charge. Sanders has always been a fan of the Soviet Union, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc. The policies those countries had/have terrible results for the people. AOC is as economically illiterate as Sanders. Her proposals will not help people in the least.


It’s almost like you’ve got a Russian handler who started freaking out that the reliably pro-magat youth soccer forum has suddenly gone sideways.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Well this is a desperate and sad attempt to change the subject coming from a magat who really, really doesn’t want to talk about the subject at hand.  His buddies just looted the Capitol but, hey look, China!


Might I also remind you of this?

I didn't see Dem politicians condemning this as well. 

The left has been doing this for a long time. And all we get is excuses from the mainstream press and the Dem politicians. 









						Limo blazes amid anti-Trump protests
					

Violent protests broke out in Washington DC as President Donald Trump was sworn in as president.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Subject at hand?
> 
> Ok try this.
> 
> ...


It’s democrats’ fault that magats stormed the Capitol!  You heard it from @Desert Hound first!

Dude, even McConnell, Lady G and half the cabinet have jumped ship. Do you really want to be the last trumpanzee on the tangerine titanic?


----------



## watfly (Jan 8, 2021)

Mob violence is mob violence, I couldn't give a shit about the underlying reasons.  It's disturbing that some of you can attempt to rationalize it under the "why", unfortunately idiot politicians in Oregon and Washington (state and DC) did the same thing and gave up control of some of their cities to mob rule.  To me that's the biggest crime along with Trump inciting violence whether it was directly or with a wink and a nod.

Yes, the protests were different and should be evaluated as such.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Might I also remind you of this?
> 
> I didn't see Dem politicians condemning this as well.
> 
> ...


Someone lit up a limo four years ago, so of course it’s not so bad to stage a coup.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

watfly said:


> Mob violence is mob violence, I couldn't give a shit about the underlying reasons.  It's disturbing that some of you can attempt to rationalize it under the "why", unfortunately idiot politicians in Oregon and Washington (state and DC) did the same thing and gave up control of some of their cities to mob rule.  To me that's the biggest crime along with Trump inciting violence whether it was directly or with a wink and a nod.
> 
> Yes, the protests were different and should be evaluated as such.


Yes, you have already established quite clearly that you’re fine with bigotry.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> We really need to stop working so much with China. Trump was right on this one.
> 
> Right now major companies are fighting against legislation related to labor conditions in China. They don't want the legislation to pass. They like their factories in China.
> 
> ...


This is certainly abhorrent. People ask why the Nazis were "allowed" to create their concentration camps and why the world stood by. Ask no more. Its more important to people to be able to buy an iPhone or Samsung at its current price point than say no to those (and every other) product which supports this. Its more important to the likes of Apple to build their hardware there and maintain their 60% margin, than to just say no. Heaven forbid their stock price might take a hit or that they may have to delve into their $250B+ in cash reserves. Heaven forbid people's 401Ks will take a hit to do the right thing.

People want to have their cake & eat it. They want the right things done ... just as long as they don't have to put any skin in the game. Its risk free morals vs "not my problem".

So 100% on China and this despicable behavior, now I'll see your China and raise you with Climate Change.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Do you think Trump promised to take down that Tweet about how ugly Mrs. Cruz is- so long as he supports Trump during this dark period? But really though, what type of man fights for a president who still has tweets ripping on his wife publicly out there on his twitter page. What wouldn't this clown do to for power if he's okay with that.
> 
> Cruz is a seemingly smart, well spoken individual.  But damn when it comes to political game theory... some of his maneuvering really leaves me scratching my head?  Sort of like that time he cheered on a government shutdown, I just don't see the endgame here.
> 
> ...


In my youth I spent a lot of time debating with Ted.  Reading the political winds wasn't exactly his strong suit.....


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> This is certainly abhorrent. People ask why the Nazis were "allowed" to create their concentration camps and why the world stood by. Ask no more. Its more important to people to be able to buy an iPhone or Samsung at its current price point than say no to those (and every other) product which supports this. Its more important to the likes of Apple to build their hardware there and maintain their 60% margin, than to just say no. Heaven forbid their stock price might take a hit or that they may have to delve into their $250B+ in cash reserves. Heaven forbid people's 401Ks will take a hit to do the right thing.
> 
> People want to have their cake & eat it. They want the right things done ... just as long as they don't have to put any skin in the game. Its risk free morals vs "not my problem".
> 
> So 100% on China and this despicable behavior, now I'll see your China and raise you with Climate Change.


I don’t care why the Warsaw ghetto uprising happened, it was wrong of the jews to riot against the Nazis. The reason for the violence doesn’t matter.  Same with Nat Turner. These minorities just need to pipe down. It’s not so bad, even if law enforcement keeps depriving them of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness because of their skin color and national origin.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm not sure if impeachment/25th amendment is a good strategy or not, but I don't think you can compare what happened at the capital to BLM protests.  I know it's easy to fall into that, especially for right leaning MAGA types, but it's apples and oranges.  You have one group that was protesting/rioting due to 100s of years of systemic racism and police brutality versus a group of brainwashed MAGA/Qanon types instigated by a standing president of the US.  Trump has literally been grooming these people.  It's just not the same no matter how you try and paint it.  This isn't justifying violence or looting, @EOTL is correct in saying the "Why" is very important here.


What you are essentially saying our civic society is over....people are justified going into residences at night at waking them up, burning businesses, attacking dinners and politicians to confront them about issues, using violence so long as the cause is justified.  People will disagree with what is justified.  Your prescription is nothing less than a call for civil war.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> In my youth I spent a lot of time debating with Ted.  Reading the political winds wasn't exactly his strong suit.....


Why don’t you tell us abut the term paper you wrote about it? I would have loved to have seen the two of you debate why masks don’t work. Your argument would have been “yep, I agree with Ted, even if his dad killed JFK.”


----------



## watfly (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Yes, you have already established quite clearly that you’re fine with bigotry.


You should really understand the meaning of words and how they apply to you before you go throwing them around frivolously.

Oh, and thanks for helping me kill time while I'm waiting in the repair lounge of the dealership.

big·ot·ry
/ˈbiɡətrē/
Learn to pronounce

_noun_

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> It’s democrats’ fault that magats stormed the Capitol!  You heard it from @Desert Hound first!
> 
> Dude, even McConnell, Lady G and half the cabinet have jumped ship. Do you really want to be the last trumpanzee on the tangerine titanic?


That fact that you think I said or even implied it was the Dems fault rioters did what they did the other day says a lot about your "intellect".


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

watfly said:


> You should really understand the meaning of words and how they apply to you before you go throwing them around frivolously.
> 
> Oh, and thanks for helping me kill time while I'm waiting in the repair lounge of the dealership.
> 
> ...


I don’t expect bigots to accept that they are, my only goal is to mock them for sport and the enjoyment of non-racists. 

BTW, can you go through one more time how BLM protesters are partly at fault a bunch of white supremacists invading the US Capitol as part of an attempted coup?  I’m not following this “non-bigoted” theory. Did they get too uppity a while back after democratic government didn’t do enough to put them back in their place, so it was obviously time to overthrow the government?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

In case anyone wants to go down memory lane.

By the way these boards are interesting.

During the summer months there was a certain group of people making excuses for the summer riots. Another group here condemned the riots.

Today the group that made excuses over the summer now are mad about the riots. The people who were mad about the riots in the summer are also mad about the riot a couple of days ago.

Interesting how that works. 









						28 Times Media And Democrats Excused Violence By Left-Wing Activists
					

After excusing and ignoring riots from leftists, Democrats and their allies in the media are ready to condemn riots now that the turmoil has shifted.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What you are essentially saying our civic society is over....people are justified going into residences at night at waking them up, burning businesses, attacking dinners and politicians to confront them about issues, using violence so long as the cause is justified.  People will disagree with what is justified.  Your prescription is nothing less than a call for civil war.


I think you're reaching a bit here. My point is that you cannot honestly compare the BLM protests with what happened at the capital. They are different. Nowhere have I justified violence, looting, etc. Let me put it this way. It's incredibly easy for me to be empathetic towards people who deal with racism on a daily basis, people who have suffered for 100s of years. On the other hand, I struggle to do that with MAGA/Qanon folks. That's not to say I have zero empathy for them, but rather, there's just this huge gap between the two groups.

But, you raise a good point. Perhaps, we've never had a civic society. Perhaps it's always been smoke and mirrors. It's hard for something to be over that never existed. I mean when there's a clear discrepancy in police enforcement between the event on Wednesday versus many of the BLM protests, that's pretty telling. Civics kind of goes out the window when you fear you're going be shot by every police officer that walks by.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> To @Grace T.'s point, it's not just Trump though.  I blame Reagan and his dismantling of sound social programs such as public education, failed trickle down economics, or his tax overhaul.  Reagan did do some good things, but a lot of his policies had a significant negative impact on where we are today.  Obviously Dems could've fixed these problems and didn't.  They're to blame as well.
> 
> I just wish folks would look at politicians and ask "What's in it for them?".  Sadly people don't do enough of this and if they truly looked at this, they'd see that folks like Sanders and AOC, are the minority who seem to truly care about their constituents.  Most politicians are grifters and have some angle that benefits themselves, both dems and repubs.



Reagan, like Trump, is just a symptom.  An even bigger symptom was Bill Clinton.  Their policies hurried this along but they are just riding certain trends in American society that unfolded since Vietnam/Great Society:

1. Foreign Wars.  The Cold War and Reagan managed to unite the right and the centrist left in favor of what the left calls the "military-industrial" complex.  When it ended, these jobs began to collapse (see the eroding of the aircraft industry in California).  But Republicans and Democrats continued to push nation building abroad which tired the American people of foreign wars.
2. Elitism.  In the 50s society was a lot more mobile (at least for whites) and it was common to see a person build an industry by their bootstraps or a man to marry a secretary from another class.   It's fiction, but in "Mad Men", Peggy Olsen graduates from secretarial school....now her job requires a top 20 college degree.  Women began to enter the work force, and women (not wanting to throw away their effort at work) typically want to marry either someone of the same or similar status.  Elites began to marry other elites, the college rat race began as colleges became gatekeepers, a society which valued technocratic experts arose.  It's more likely a white woman graduating from an Ivy League school will marry an African American male graduating from such school than a white man rural farmer in Kansas.  The elites have a vested interest in protecting this meritocrisy for themselves (which is why so many of us are in the youth soccer pay to play/college rat race).
3. Globalism.  The elites have more in common with other elites in Hong Kong, Paris, or Moscow than a farmer in Iowa.  Their concerns (on immigration, trade, monetary policy, war) are globalist.  The D alliance on immigration, for example, is the rich which wants the cheap labor, and D politicians which want the vote, and the newcomers that want to bring over more friends and family or secure those who are already here.  Those concerns often cut against the concerts of people lower on the economic totem pole.  As society becomes more automated as well, there will be less well paying jobs at the bottom end and the pie has begun to shrink everywhere in the new globalist economy.
4. The Great Society.  On the lower end of the government spectrum, the social safety net (separate and apart from arguments as to its necessity and proper structure) caused the weakening of family structures and the work ethic.  It makes more rational sense for a woman with kids on welfare to go it alone than to share that pie with a husband who might be a drag on the family and throw away the money.
5. Racism.  I'm a 3x minority....I don't believe America is "systemically racist"....I ascribed to the belief that everyone, regardless of skin color, is a little bit racist.  But I also think there's racism out there, and it's often times the easiest reason for people to see why their lives may be in the crapper (rather than all the more complicated economic and societal stuff).  And the history of America from it's founding through the civil rights movement was overwhelmingly concerned with racism and race.
6. The Collapse of Institutions.  Back in Reagan's time, religion was the corner stone of the Reagan coalition.  Trump just gives religion lip service, and the Mormons are uncomfortable with this new aggressive stance taken by the Republican Party.  The churches, particularly the main line institutions, have collapsed.  On the left, it's been replaced with wokeism/post-modernism.  Other institutions as well have collapsed and been discredited.  The pandemic for example has trashed the reputation of our health experts and teachers among a large segment of the population.  The police are in disrepute among certain elements of the left.  The press has trashed itself, and the tech industry is going down the way with it.  The things which held us together are no longer there.
7. The Internet.  Smashed gatekeepers to information (something which causes rage among the elites), and anonymity has led to inflammatory ways of dealing with each other.

All this to say, Trump's the dam, not the river....he's a symptom....things are going to get worse short of inspired leadership.  The D reactions haven't exactly filled me with confidence, and frankly I'm not sure Biden is up to it...it would require a Lincolnesque figure.  Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I don’t care why the Warsaw ghetto uprising happened, it was wrong of the jews to riot against the Nazis. The reason for the violence doesn’t matter.  Same with Nat Turner. These minorities just need to pipe down. It’s not so bad, even if law enforcement keeps depriving them of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness because of their skin color and national origin.


Yeah, but of course the Jewish ghettos existed in Europe long before the Nazis. Europe has a long history of pogroms against the Jews, instigated to distract or just simply by local lords (& such) to eliminate their debts. 

What was it the Nazis at Charlottesville were chanting, "Jews will not replace us". This is now, in the USA.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> In case anyone wants to go down memory lane.
> 
> By the way these boards are interesting.
> 
> ...


Yes, we get it. The magat crowd had already made quite clear that that they/you believe staging a coup yo overthrow the government of the U.S. at the direction of your quickly deflating orange baboon balloon(man) isn’t really so bad because just look at those uppity black people who got tired of being persecuted and being told by your kind to get over it.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Reagan, like Trump, is just a symptom.  An even bigger symptom was Bill Clinton.  Their policies hurried this along but they are just riding certain trends in American society that unfolded since Vietnam/Great Society:
> 
> 1. Foreign Wars.  The Cold War and Reagan managed to unite the right and the centrist left in favor of what the left calls the "military-industrial" complex.  When it ended, these jobs began to collapse (see the eroding of the aircraft industry in California).  But Republicans and Democrats continued to push nation building abroad which tired the American people of foreign wars.
> 2. Elitism.  In the 50s society was a lot more mobile (at least for whites) and it was common to see a person build an industry by their bootstraps or a man to marry a secretary from another class.   It's fiction, but in "Mad Men", Peggy Olsen graduates from secretarial school....now her job requires a top 20 college degree.  Women began to enter the work force, and women (not wanting to throw away their effort at work) typically want to marry either someone of the same or similar status.  Elites began to marry other elites, the college rat race began as colleges became gatekeepers, a society which valued technocratic experts arose.  It's more likely a white woman graduating from an Ivy League school will marry an African American male graduating from such school than a white man rural farmer in Kansas.  The elites have a vested interest in protecting this meritocrisy for themselves (which is why so many of us are in the youth soccer pay to play/college rat race).
> ...


I should not have inquired about Karen’s HS term paper earlier.  My bad everyone.

Just when you thought it was BLM’s fault that white supremacists tried to overthrow democracy, Karen busts out with a theory that it’s mostly Bill Clinton’s fault. Let’s place blame anywhere other than whete it squarely belongs, Trumpy McFrumpy and his sad little band of red-hatted has beens.


----------



## espola (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Yeah, but of course the Jewish ghettos existed in Europe long before the Nazis. Europe has a long history of pogroms against the Jews, instigated to distract or just simply by local lords (& such) to eliminate their debts.
> 
> What was it the Nazis at Charlottesville were chanting, "Jews will not replace us". This is now, in the USA.


Several of the Capitol trespassers were wearing t-shirts with the logo 6MWE.  Look it up.


----------



## watfly (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I don’t expect bigots to accept that they are, my only goal is to mock them for sport and the enjoyment of non-racists.
> 
> BTW, can you go through one more time how BLM protesters are partly at fault a bunch of white supremacists invading the US Capitol as part of an attempted coup?  I’m not following this “non-bigoted” theory. Did they get too uppity a while back after democratic government didn’t do enough to put them back in their place, so it was obviously time to overthrow the government?


Not my theory at all.   Again you have to mischaracterize others arguments to make your arguments sound even remotely plausible.

I think your problem is that all your heavy breathing has fogged up your mirror which makes you incapable of seeing yourself in it.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 5. Racism.  I'm a 3x minority....I don't believe America is "systemically racist"....I ascribed to the belief that everyone, regardless of skin color, is a little bit racist.  But I also think there's racism out there, and it's often times the easiest reason for people to see why their lives may be in the crapper (rather than all the more complicated economic and societal stuff).  And the history of America from it's founding through the civil rights movement was overwhelmingly concerned with racism and race.


Thanks for posting this.  I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I think this explains why our viewpoints are different here.  I think systemic racism is alive and well in our country.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> l suppose admitting it was trumpanzees who looted our Capitol, and not undercover Antifa sleeper cell agents wearing magat hats in a false flag operation, is progress. How’s that for conciliation?
> 
> Now get your s**t together and denounce what happened without trying to magat-splain that it wasn’t so bad and everyone does it anyway.


UR dence.  Quit spitting out ideological nonsense.  Your pol pot approach to debate is  hilarious.  You've read what I've stated.  Tear yourself away from your leaflets and think for yourself.


----------



## espola (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


>


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

espola said:


> Several of the Capitol trespassers were wearing t-shirts with the logo 6MWE.  Look it up.


Completely true.  Open season for the FBI.  Plenty of video and still shots available for those that are charged with criminal trespass.  A creative prosecutor may be able to spice things up with a hate crime charge.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

Very soothing - Happy New Year


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Thanks for posting this.  I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I think this explains why our viewpoints are different here.  I think systemic racism is alive and well in our country.


Thanks for that and I appreciate your point of view.  If you are a fellow PoC I totally get why it can sometimes feel that way.  I've had the feeling myself at various times in my life.  Those feelings are very real, and I appreciate them.

If you are not, part of your feeling is explained by 6.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Completely true.  Open season for the FBI.  Plenty of video and still shots available for those that are charged with criminal trespass.  A creative prosecutor may be able to spice things up with a hate crime charge.



Felony murder charges also seem in the offering for quite a few people given an officer has died.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Thanks for that and I appreciate your point of view.  If you are a fellow PoC I totally get why it can sometimes feel that way.  I've had the feeling myself at various times in my life.  Those feelings are very real, and I appreciate them.
> 
> If you are not, part of your feeling is explained by 6.


I'm not a PoC.

To be clear, the systemic racism I'm talking about can be reflected in data. For example:









						26 simple charts to show friends and family who aren't convinced racism is still a problem in America
					

Research has extensively documented the differences between the Black and white experience in the US, from wealth and education to incarceration.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




I totally get wanting to label non-PoC folks as part of the "wokeness" movement, but this is something I've been aware of since my childhood. For example, I remember vividly growing up in Huntington Beach in the 80s. A neighbor was selling their house. They went door to door asking everyone if we'd be ok with a black family moving into the neighborhood. While you might write that off as just one individual being racist, it clearly has roots in systemic racism. Why did they feel the need to ask? Is this something that happens regularly? If so, what is the impact on school district zoning? Can black families get into good school districts as a result? etc...

We're diverging a bit.  My point is this is why I see the "protests" differently.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm not a PoC.
> 
> To be clear, the systemic racism I'm talking about can be reflected in data. For example:
> 
> ...


When my family moved into a white suburb of Los Angeles in the early 80s, our house was TPd and certain body parts spray painted all over our house.  My elder brother (in first grade) had the crap beat out of him by 5th graders and ended up in the hospital.  My best friend, a Jewish boy across the street, had a cross burned on his front lawn.  And when a black family moved in, they were so ostracized they left the neighborhood within 6 months.  I get that (BTW, the police arrested some of the cross burners....the instigator was a Persian teen recently fled from Iran).

But America has made enormous strides as well.  I'm not saying folks still aren't racist.  Everyone is a little bit racist.  But 1) saying the problems in these communities is about racism is an easy out....it's an easy target to point out rather than addressing the more complex sociological forces at work (which do include race....it's just not the overriding end all explanation for everything), and 2) neglects the fact that the Trump supporters have many grievances themselves.  Now, you can argue that the racism concerns are > or more meritorious than the concerns of the Trump voters but: a) there's no objective way to definitively prove that (unless you believe in a divine being that so orders it), b) so what...they are still all concerns just as real to those people and c) those concerns aren't going to go away or be dropped by anyone so what's the point about arguing which one is more valid?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Completely true.  Open season for the FBI.  Plenty of video and still shots available for those that are charged with criminal trespass.  A creative prosecutor may be able to spice things up with a hate crime charge.


Felony murder baby!


----------



## espola (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Felony murder charges also seem in the offering for quite a few people given an officer has died.


If I, an average citizen, were to encourage someone to break into my neighbor's house, and when the neighbor resisted, he was killed, I would be at least an accessory before the fact to murder, if not a murderer as well.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> When my family moved into a white suburb of Los Angeles in the early 80s, our house was TPd and certain body parts spray painted all over our house.  My elder brother (in first grade) had the crap beat out of him by 5th graders and ended up in the hospital.  My best friend, a Jewish boy across the street, had a cross burned on his front lawn.  And when a black family moved in, they were so ostracized they left the neighborhood within 6 months.  I get that (BTW, the police arrested some of the cross burners....the instigator was a Persian teen recently fled from Iran).
> 
> But America has made enormous strides as well.  I'm not saying folks still aren't racist.  Everyone is a little bit racist.  But 1) saying the problems in these communities is about racism is an easy out....it's an easy target to point out rather than addressing the more complex sociological forces at work (which do include race....it's just not the overriding end all explanation for everything), and 2) neglects the fact that the Trump supporters have many grievances themselves.  Now, you can argue that the racism concerns are > or more meritorious than the concerns of the Trump voters but: a) there's no objective way to definitively prove that (unless you believe in a divine being that so orders it), b) so what...they are still all concerns just as real to those people and c) those concerns aren't going to go away or be dropped by anyone so what's the point about arguing which one is more valid?


Grace-Karen claims: (1) racism isn’t that bad these days, so they should just get over it; (2) no one should hold magats accountable for their racism because how do you really know what’s in their hearts anyway, even if they’re parading around the Capitol with a confederate flag, cops murdering a black woman sleeping in her bed or a kid holding a bag of chips, or whining about how their favorite Bull Conner and Jefferson Davis statutes should be protected as “a part of history”; (3) magats have a lot of legitimate grievances to explain why they tried to overthrow the government of the U.S. I mean, life is certainly hard when you can’t stop someone else from having an abortion or gay people from marrying each other. And how dare someone get in the way of their right to a high capacity magazine for their assault rifle and therefore impede their  right to give the MI governor and AG what’s coming to them. The bodies of 30 dead 1st graders in Sandy Hook smells like, well, freedom doesn’t it? I feel so bad for the magats. How dare people encroach on their religion by practicing a different one, am I right?

I don’t know who’s worse, the magats or their apologists.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> When my family moved into a white suburb of Los Angeles in the early 80s, our house was TPd and certain body parts spray painted all over our house.  My elder brother (in first grade) had the crap beat out of him by 5th graders and ended up in the hospital.  My best friend, a Jewish boy across the street, had a cross burned on his front lawn.  And when a black family moved in, they were so ostracized they left the neighborhood within 6 months.  I get that (BTW, the police arrested some of the cross burners....the instigator was a Persian teen recently fled from Iran).
> 
> But America has made enormous strides as well.  I'm not saying folks still aren't racist.  Everyone is a little bit racist.  But 1) saying the problems in these communities is about racism is an easy out....it's an easy target to point out rather than addressing the more complex sociological forces at work (which do include race....it's just not the overriding end all explanation for everything), and 2) neglects the fact that the Trump supporters have many grievances themselves.  Now, you can argue that the racism concerns are > or more meritorious than the concerns of the Trump voters but: a) there's no objective way to definitively prove that (unless you believe in a divine being that so orders it), b) so what...they are still all concerns just as real to those people and c) those concerns aren't going to go away or be dropped by anyone so what's the point about arguing which one is more valid?


Sorry you had you deal with that growing up. Southern California, specifically Orange County, in the 80s was hardly the panacea for racial tolerance. Haven't lived there since the early 90s, so I have no idea what it's like now. But this article touches on some of the things I remember:





__





						How L.A. Punks of the '80s and '90s Kept Neo-Nazis Out of Their Scene
					

John Doe and other insiders from the era reflect on what worked then—and what we can learn today




					www.lamag.com
				




I think we can agree to disagree on how much progress we've made as a country. I don't think the data supports your assertion. I would love to be proven wrong here.

Like I said, I have empathy for the MAGA/Qanon folks, but probably not for the reasons one might expect.  I have zero empathy for them protesting based on the false narrative around fraudulent election results. That's something Trump leveraged to get them riled up; something he had been angling for many months prior to the election.  I do have empathy for them because their needs have not been met over the years.  Neither democrat or republican has helped them.  Trump leveraged that anger.  Just as much as he and Reagan leveraged the religious right.  Again, this goes back to why I think people need to look at politicians and discern if the grift is on or not.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Reagan, like Trump, is just a symptom.  An even bigger symptom was Bill Clinton.  Their policies hurried this along but they are just riding certain trends in American society that unfolded since Vietnam/Great Society:
> 
> 1. Foreign Wars.  The Cold War and Reagan managed to unite the right and the centrist left in favor of what the left calls the "military-industrial" complex.  When it ended, these jobs began to collapse (see the eroding of the aircraft industry in California).  But Republicans and Democrats continued to push nation building abroad which tired the American people of foreign wars.
> 2. Elitism.  In the 50s society was a lot more mobile (at least for whites) and it was common to see a person build an industry by their bootstraps or a man to marry a secretary from another class.   It's fiction, but in "Mad Men", Peggy Olsen graduates from secretarial school....now her job requires a top 20 college degree.  Women began to enter the work force, and women (not wanting to throw away their effort at work) typically want to marry either someone of the same or similar status.  Elites began to marry other elites, the college rat race began as colleges became gatekeepers, a society which valued technocratic experts arose.  It's more likely a white woman graduating from an Ivy League school will marry an African American male graduating from such school than a white man rural farmer in Kansas.  The elites have a vested interest in protecting this meritocrisy for themselves (which is why so many of us are in the youth soccer pay to play/college rat race).
> ...


Its Clinton's fault, LMFAO.

It is certainly funny how times have changed though. In Clinton's time an impeachable offense apparently was getting a BJ in the WH ... vs now ...


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

I mean look at this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347612365093826565
These people actually believed the election results could be overturned.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Its Clinton's fault, LMFAO.
> 
> It is certainly funny how times have changed though. In Clinton's time an impeachable offense apparently was getting a BJ in the WH ... vs now ...


Welfare reform.  Specifically while it cut down on fraud it made it harder for people to get off by raising the opportunity cost of doing work.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Felony murder baby!


And why not?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Its Clinton's fault, LMFAO.
> 
> It is certainly funny how times have changed though. In Clinton's time an impeachable offense apparently was getting a BJ in the WH ... vs now ...


To be fair, Clinton was a corporate dem. Getting rid of Glass Steagall had a big part in the housing crisis:





__





						Glass–Steagall legislation - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




But, yeah, nowhere near as bad as Reagan.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Welfare reform.  Specifically while it cut down on fraud it made it harder for people to get off by raising the opportunity cost of doing work.


So you think he should have vetoed the republican congress welfare reform bill a third time? I think he took what he could get esp. with an election coming up. He was always a politician first, convictions second.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Like I said, I have empathy for the MAGA/Qanon folks, but probably not for the reasons one might expect.  I have zero empathy for them protesting based on the false narrative around fraudulent election results. That's something Trump leveraged to get them riled up


People on both sides have a bit narrow perspective on the Trump elections.  Different things can be true at the same time:

1. There was election fraud.  There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.  Trump campaign has definitely shown that there was fraud such as dead people and noncitizens voting.
2.  There's plenty of statistical evidence that shows the mail in ballot rejection rate (votes which are overwhelming D) was less than other elections.  In some places, such as Georgia, it wasn't possible to conduct an analysis as to why because the ballots and signatures were separated.  There's also some eye of the beholder type stuff going on here because no signature can ever be 100% objectively verified so it's possible biased observers were lenient on signature verification if the vote was against Trump.  Pennsylvania had no such signature verification so anything went, which is why the objectors focused on Pennsylvania.
3. But again, there is always election fraud.  It's not enough to show fraud, or a statistical variance.  You can't just show smoke, you must show fire.  You have to show that the fraud was of such magnitude that it would have made a difference.  In the short span of things Trump was not able to show that, and its very likely he'll never be able to show that.  The courts rightly ruled that they weren't going to overturn a democratic election results based on suspicions without proof, which the Trump campaign overwhelmingly did NOT provide.  The courts also rejected some claims on the basis of standing, timeliness and some courts never got to rule before certification.
4. An election legally needs to be free.  There's no evidence of any mass conspiracy by the Ds or the Biden campaign.  There's been no proof shown of fraud on the magnitudes needed for a court to overturn.  The Rs who objected said they wanted a commission to examine whether such fraud happen.  The Ds argued that's what the courts are for.
5. Elections, however, should also be fair.  Here the Trumpists have more of a point.  It's been shown that the press was not objective in this at all.  The pollster and tech companies have also been biased.  Many of the voting rules, such as in Pennsylvania, were changed before on the grounds of pandemic and there are arguments surrounding the legality of such moves.  Prior to this, the Ds impeached Trump (for reasons the Rs thought were unfounded) and then there was the entire Russiagate thing.  The moderators at the debates were biased.  People may dispute how many of these points are legitimate, but the Trumpists have more of a ground to complain the election wasn't "fair" v. "free".
6. The pandemic.  The Trumpists argue, and there's reason to believe, that but for the pandemic Trump probably wouldn't have won.  Yeah, we can say boo hoo so what growup, but how many of us have been at that game where an unfortunate unforeseen event turns the tide and how did we feel?  And then there's all the concerns about lockdowns, businesses, masks, and the loss of liberties that go along with it.

None of this justifies what happened.  Yes, Trump being a politician, leveraged and used them.  What he did was ugly and offensive.  But it's also not fair to say there were absolutely no problems with this election and the way they were conducted and the Trumpkins have nothing to be upset about.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> So you think he should have vetoed the republican congress welfare reform bill a third time? I think he took what he could get esp. with an election coming up. He was always a politician first, convictions second.


If he really believed against it, yes...veto, take your licks in the election.  Otherwise, you are responsible.  Weren't people just complaining Trump is a politician exploiting the feelings of the Trumpists????

p.s. I'm tired of people making excuses for politicians just because they are on the same team...looking at you Gov. Newsom.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> People on both sides have a bit narrow perspective on the Trump elections.  Different things can be true at the same time:
> 
> 1. There was election fraud.  There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.  Trump campaign has definitely shown that there was fraud such as dead people and noncitizens voting.
> 2.  There's plenty of statistical evidence that shows the mail in ballot rejection rate (votes which are overwhelming D) was less than other elections.  In some places, such as Georgia, it wasn't possible to conduct an analysis as to why because the ballots and signatures were separated.  There's also some eye of the beholder type stuff going on here because no signature can ever be 100% objectively verified so it's possible biased observers were lenient on signature verification if the vote was against Trump.  Pennsylvania had no such signature verification so anything went, which is why the objectors focused on Pennsylvania.
> ...


There's a lot to digest here.

Can you help me reason about these two conflicting statements:

"There was election fraud. There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result. Trump campaign has definitely shown that there was fraud such as dead people and noncitizens voting."

and

"The courts rightly ruled that they weren't going to overturn a democratic election results based on suspicions without proof, which the Trump campaign overwhelmingly did NOT provide. "

How can you make a statement with such certitude and then later suggest there was no proof? Or are you just stating this because this what they believe and that you actually believe differently?

The rest of what you wrote doesn't resonate with me at all. The handling of the pandemic was not the equivalent of "missing a pass". It quite literally was the biggest moment in his term. 

None of this changes anything in my mind.  A lot of these just sound like Trump sound bites with no teeth.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> People on both sides have a bit narrow perspective on the Trump elections.  Different things can be true at the same time:
> 
> 1. There was election fraud.  There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.  Trump campaign has definitely shown that there was fraud such as dead people and noncitizens voting.
> 2.  There's plenty of statistical evidence that shows the mail in ballot rejection rate (votes which are overwhelming D) was less than other elections.  In some places, such as Georgia, it wasn't possible to conduct an analysis as to why because the ballots and signatures were separated.  There's also some eye of the beholder type stuff going on here because no signature can ever be 100% objectively verified so it's possible biased observers were lenient on signature verification if the vote was against Trump.  Pennsylvania had no such signature verification so anything went, which is why the objectors focused on Pennsylvania.
> ...


I didn’t know Karens could be passive aggressive. “Yes, there was election fraud, our great master who can’t make it to the toilet in time proved it, but woe is us we just need to accept it.”

The only problem with this election were the magats who tried to subvert it. Funny, but not surprising, how Grace-Karen fails to mention that.

Someone really needs to tell her that her fellow conspiracy theorist and wannabe legal eagles Sid “the Squid, er, Kraken” Powell and Lin Wood have both been completely discredited and are now about 0 for one million in court. And don’t get me started on how her favorite lawyer Linny Poo got banned for life on Twitter, which is pretty hard to do, and I should know. I’ve only managed to get suspended myself.


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

espola said:


> If I, an average citizen, were to encourage someone to break into my neighbor's house, and when the neighbor resisted, he was killed, I would be at least an accessory before the fact to murder, if not a murderer as well.


Please show me where Trump said specifically to his people they should storm and occupy the Capitol.

If anything, under your theory, some Capitol police have more of a problem....



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347596278583197698


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## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> People on both sides have a bit narrow perspective on the Trump elections.  Different things can be true at the same time:
> 
> 1. There was election fraud.  There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.  Trump campaign has definitely shown that there was fraud such as dead people and noncitizens voting.
> 2.  There's plenty of statistical evidence that shows the mail in ballot rejection rate (votes which are overwhelming D) was less than other elections.  In some places, such as Georgia, it wasn't possible to conduct an analysis as to why because the ballots and signatures were separated.  There's also some eye of the beholder type stuff going on here because no signature can ever be 100% objectively verified so it's possible biased observers were lenient on signature verification if the vote was against Trump.  Pennsylvania had no such signature verification so anything went, which is why the objectors focused on Pennsylvania.
> ...


The Dems keep making voting easier. And by that I mean easier to do it illegally. 

We really should have OR get rid of the following.

- We need voter ID. There is no good basis not to make that a requirement. We have to have an ID for so many basic things in life, voting should be one of them 
- Mail in voting is extremely susceptible to fraud. There is no good chain of custody/verification. After the 2000 election there was a commission with Carter and other prominent Ds and Rs. One of they biggest concerns was vote by mail. Mail in voting should really be limited to those people who for whatever reason CANNOT make it in to vote in person. 
- We shouldn't allow ballot harvesting. With power/money at stake, there is a very large incentive to manipulate how this is done. 
- We need to on a regular basis purge our voter rolls. Eliminate dead people, people who have moved, etc. 
- We can't have as was done in some states have drop boxes where people can just come by and drop votes. Basically who know what goes on at these temporary sites. 
- Early voting should be limited. We shouldn't allow voting to happen a month or so in advance. So many things can and do happen politically that it makes sense for voting to take place much closer to the actual date. 
- We should absolutely NOT allow the press to make predictions, talk about results until ALL the voting areas in the US are closed. It has the affect of potentially suppressing people from voting if they think their national candidate has lost. The could affect the national vote BUT also affect the vote as it relates to local races and propositions.

There are some other ones that should be done.


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## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Thanks for posting this.  I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I think this explains why our viewpoints are different here.  I think systemic racism is alive and well in our country.


I don't disagree there is systemic racism in the system. I also don't disagree that biased laws that favor certain groups over others is a real problem that we should work toward fixing. 

Where I get lost however, is when I start hearing 'burn the village down to save the village' type solutions. With regard to BLM or the Trumpies. This type of extremist positioning when it comes to finding solutions will lead us to no where good.


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Please show me where Trump said specifically to his people they should storm and occupy the Capitol.
> 
> If anything, under your theory, some Capitol police have more of a problem....
> 
> ...


This is such a pathetic argument. I wish someone would rid me of this meddlesome Karen.


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> There's a lot to digest here.
> 
> Can you help me reason about these two conflicting statements:
> 
> ...


To overturn an election result it's not legally enough to show there was fraud.  You have to show that but for the fraud you would have won (and in many cases the remedy on the state level would be to have a new election).  You have to prove that the fraud was of sufficient margins that it actually made a material difference.

It's a 2 part test.  He had evidence of the first, he couldn't prove the second.  If you, a sophisticated soccerite on your computer, can't grasp that distinction very easily (not at insult...just a reality for people who haven't been trained in legal thinking), how much less the Trumpist.


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I don't disagree there is systemic racism in the system. I also don't disagree that biased laws that favor certain groups over others is a real problem that we should work toward fixing.
> 
> Where I get lost however, is when I start hearing 'burn the village down to save the village' type solutions. With regard to BLM or the Trumpies. This type of extremist positioning when it comes to finding solutions will lead us to no where good.


Yes, we know you are lost.


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The Dems keep making voting easier. And by that I mean easier to do it illegally.
> 
> We really should have OR get rid of the following.
> 
> ...


Some general good points.  Of course the concern on the other side is that the most vulnerable (immigrants, ESL, homeless, elderly) would be disenfranchised and not everyone has a license.  Ultimately, though, the Ds won't allow it because it's about political power and that's one of the reasons even if the election was free, the Trumpkins think they have a point about it being fair.

Your last point would probably violate the first amendment.


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## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Where I get lost however, is when I start hearing 'burn the village down to save the village' type solutions. With regard to BLM or the Trumpies. This type of extremist positioning when it comes to finding solutions will lead us to no where good.


Yeah don't disagree with that. To be fair a vast majority of the BLM protests across the nation were peaceful without issue. I do wonder if the increased police attention in certain areas escalated some of these situations. It's difficult for me to understand fully what it feels like to be fearful for my life every time I see a police officer. 

To be clear, I support our police.  I have friends on SWAT teams, etc.  What I also support, is more training to better handle some of these situations.


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## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> We should absolutely NOT allow the press to make predictions, talk about results until ALL the voting areas in the US are closed. It has the affect of potentially suppressing people from voting if they think their national candidate has lost. The could affect the national vote BUT also affect the vote as it relates to local races and propositions.


By this I mean during the DAY of the election as they may influence turnout in some areas/states. 

They can predict all they want leading up to election day, etc.


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## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Some general good points.  Of course the concern on the other side is that the most vulnerable (immigrants, ESL, homeless, elderly) would be disenfranchised and not everyone has a license.  Ultimately, though, the Ds won't allow it because it's about political power and that's one of the reasons even if the election was free, the Trumpkins think they have a point about it being fair.
> 
> Your last point would probably violate the first amendment.


I just posted an update to what I meant regarding the press.


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## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Of course the concern on the other side is that the most vulnerable (immigrants, ESL, homeless, elderly) would be disenfranchised and not everyone has a license.


Pretty much everyone has to have an ID. Be it to sign up for gov benefits, cash checks, etc. 

However the states could set up a system for those who for whatever reason cannot afford an ID. Just issue them one. That seems like an easier solution vs saying well since an extremely small percentage of people don't have an ID...well I guess nobody needs to show one.


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## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah don't disagree with that. To be fair a vast majority of the BLM protests across the nation were peaceful without issue. I do wonder if the increased police attention in certain areas escalated some of these situations. It's difficult for me to understand fully what it feels like to be fearful for my life every time I see a police officer.
> 
> To be clear, I support our police.  I have friends on SWAT teams, etc.  What I also support, is more training to better handle some of these situations.


Well... if you see the rising crime stats in the nations inner cities that came with cut backs in policing... apparently not having enough cops around is what should be scaring people more bad cops.

I understand the struggles are very real. But good intentions aren't enough.  I'm all for this 'war on racisim' mind you. I just want to make sure we do it in a way that we can win.


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## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If he really believed against it, yes...veto, take your licks in the election.  Otherwise, you are responsible.  Weren't people just complaining Trump is a politician exploiting the feelings of the Trumpists????
> 
> p.s. I'm tired of people making excuses for politicians just because they are on the same team...looking at you Gov. Newsom.


I'm not defending Clinton, but its very selective to *exclusively* blame Clinton for something written by and passed by Republicans. Politicians in the US do not "take their licks in the election" on either side of the aisle.

The Daily Show interviewed the ex-head of government (not sure on the title, like Governor) of Queensland in Australia, about the gun control law passed in the 90s after the mass shooting there. They asked him if he knew it was political suicide to support it and push it through. He said that he did know that at the time. He said he knew his political career was over once he supported it, but that it was the right thing to do, so he did. He was gone next election. I can't think of a single US politician that would do this (on any policy issue, not guns specifically).

Neither Ds or Rs have a monopoly on good ideas.


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> To overturn an election result it's not legally enough to show there was fraud.  You have to show that but for the fraud you would have won (and in many cases the remedy on the state level would be to have a new election).  You have to prove that the fraud was of sufficient margins that it actually made a material difference.
> 
> It's a 2 part test.  He had evidence of the first, he couldn't prove the second.  If you, a sophisticated soccerite on your computer, can't grasp that distinction very easily (not at insult...just a reality for people who haven't been trained in legal thinking), how much less the Trumpist.


So much evidence. It’s the best evidence. People are saying they’ve never seen such great evidence. Beautiful people like Sid the Squid and Linny Poopoo, and this expert Rams-whoever the f**k who claims that 700% of make believe registered voters in a non-existent county in MI voted for Biden.

Hey Karen, if you have proof, prove it. If you only have bs like your 0-60 wannabe lawyer friends, well that’s not proof of s**t. It’s no wonder you don’t actually practice law, but never fret, you’ve got about two weeks still for Trump to retain you (and then stiff you in the bill), so he can use you to commit a crime like his last lawyer who just withdrew yesterday. 

By tomorrow, the cabinet, his entire staff, even Lady G and Moscow Mitch will all have bailed. The only sycophants left to worship the obnoxious orange orangutan man will be Karen here and her former debate partner Ted “”Yes Sir, Thank You Sir My Wife Is Definitely a Disgusting Hag” Cruz. Small world.


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## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

The Dems have been batty ever since 2016. 

In today’s overreach by Democrats, Nancy Pelosi is demanding that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff block Trump’s access to the nuclear codes—for no other purpose than to continue smearing Trump as crazy and dangerous.





> “This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike,” Pelosi (D-Calif.) wrote.


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## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> To overturn an election result it's not legally enough to show there was fraud.  You have to show that but for the fraud you would have won (and in many cases the remedy on the state level would be to have a new election).  You have to prove that the fraud was of sufficient margins that it actually made a material difference.
> 
> It's a 2 part test.  He had evidence of the first, he couldn't prove the second.  If you, a sophisticated soccerite on your computer, can't grasp that distinction very easily (not at insult...just a reality for people who haven't been trained in legal thinking), how much less the Trumpist.


I completely get it, I was just trying understand what you were trying to communicate. In simple terms, there was election fraud, like every election, but no material impact to the election results. So in even more simpler words, Trump had no case. He rode the election fraud narrative knowing there was no meat to it. His base was incapable of listening to other republican officials (GA SOS, etc) debunking all of Trump's claims. Who's to blame for that? Should I have empathy for them for not being able to discern the truth here? Is it Fox's fault?

As an aside, I can't tell what your political ideology is.  Not suggesting it's important to know this, but when you say things like "There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.", where are you getting that?  Election fraud examples I've seen so far have benefitted both parties.


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I'm not defending Clinton, but its very selective to *exclusively* blame Clinton for something written by and passed by Republicans. Politicians in the US do not "take their licks in the election" on either side of the aisle.


Totally agree with this so long as you hold the others to the same standards....Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton, Obama and Trump.  I've been making a similar argument with Trump and the health care policy experts (which he has little ability to fire).


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Totally agree with this so long as you hold the others to the same standards....Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton, Obama and Trump.  I've been making a similar argument with Trump and the health care policy experts (which he has little ability to fire).


Now Obama did it?!?  How dare a black dude become president! All it’s going to do is get all these magats worked up to the point that they have no choice but to overthrow the government!


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## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... if you see the rising crime stats in the nations inner cities that came with cut backs in policing... apparently not having enough cops around is what should be scaring people more bad cops.
> 
> I understand the struggles are very real. But good intentions aren't enough.  I'm all for this 'war on racisim' mind you. I just want to make sure we do it in a way that we can win.


For sure, this is an incredibly complicated problem.  I'd point out though that inner city crime is a symptom of systemic racism.  Perhaps more officers isn't the solution.  Figuring out how to improve the lives and opportunity of folks in these communities could be a better use of time and money.  No idea otherwise.


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## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The Dems keep making voting easier. And by that I mean easier to do it illegally.
> 
> We really should have OR get rid of the following.
> 
> ...


I don't have any problem with your points, but we need more.

To your last point, I think Ireland have a 3 day cooling off period prior to election day whereby no polls or electioneering are allowed, and obv. nothing on election day.

We should have the same system as Australia, voting levels are always above 90%. Everyone has to vote (legal requirement). If you do not vote, you will be fined. Election day is a public holiday.

There should be laws against voter suppression.

There should be independent redistricting commissions in every state - no gerrymandering. 

If politicians or parties are afraid of everyone voting and putting barriers in place to prevent people voting, then you know they are actively trying to "steal" elections.

Registering to vote should be simple, & if an ID is required, it should be free to obtain, simple to get and simple to update.


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I completely get it, I was just trying understand what you were trying to communicate. In simple terms, there was election fraud, like every election, but no material impact to the election results. So in even more simpler words, Trump had no case. He rode the election fraud narrative knowing there was no meat to it. His base was incapable of listening to other republican officials (GA SOS, etc) debunking all of Trump's claims. Who's to blame for that? Should I have empathy for them for not being able to discern the truth here? Is it Fox's fault?
> 
> As an aside, I can't tell what your political ideology is.  Not suggesting it's important to know this, but when you say things like "There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.", where are you getting that?  Election fraud examples I've seen so far have benefitted both parties.


1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove).  But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable).  People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....

2. I'm all over politically.  Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom.  I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.

3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing.  It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove).  But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable).  People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....
> 
> 2. I'm all over politically.  Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom.  I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.
> 
> 3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing.  It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.


Ok, now Karen-Grace has gone from claiming Mr Marmalade Magat proved election fraud to admitting he can’t prove it but has a “rational basis” to maybe believe it. She is correct when she says she’s all over the place.

And my God, will someone please tell her that repeatedly touting what she did in HS is not the resume builder she thinks it is?


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## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove).  But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable).  People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....
> 
> 2. I'm all over politically.  Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom.  I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.
> 
> 3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing.  It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.


1 - But they aren't just complaining that there was election fraud. They are complaining because they think there is enough election fraud to change the results. Their complaint is absolutely intertwined. Otherwise, why storm the capitol? I mean "Stop the Steal" sends a pretty clear message.  

3 - I think it's just as reasonable to assume fraud was equally involved for both parties.  I've seen no evidence that suggests otherwise.  Have you?


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> 1 - But they aren't just complaining that there was election fraud. They are complaining because they think there is enough election fraud to change the results. Their complaint is absolutely intertwined. Otherwise, why storm the capitol? I mean "Stop the Steal" sends a pretty clear message.


Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time.  It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!"  It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free.  I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair.  At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections.  When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.  I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.


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## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time.  It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!"  It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.
> 
> Elections should be fair and free.  I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair.  At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections.  When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.  I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.


So Karen-Grace spends the entire morning falsely claiming the election was rife with fraud, then turns around and laments that:

“if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections.  When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.”


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## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time.  It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!"  It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.
> 
> Elections should be fair and free.  I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair.  At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections.  When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.  I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.


Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned? 

If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?


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## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned?
> 
> If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?


Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol).  If so, why disrupt the proceedings?  Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose.  What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.  

1. There's no basis for that charge.  Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it.  If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake.  He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration.  Leads me to believe its a political stunt.  They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies.  This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters.  It's a mistake.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol).  If so, why disrupt the proceedings?  Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose.  What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).


To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried.  And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer. 

As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.
> 
> 1. There's no basis for that charge.  Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
> 2. They're probably not serious about it.  If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
> ...


I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.

I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.

From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol).  If so, why disrupt the proceedings?  Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose.  What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).


There were a lot of Qanon folks there. A lot of these folks buy into conspiracy theories. Trump's own tweets were suggesting Pence could decide at the certification process which states electoral votes to accept. It's incredibly bizarre when you think about it. Yeah, I definitely think those folks thought the election was stolen due to mass fraud and that it was going to be overturned. I mean this is what Trump has been telling them the whole time while he continued his grift (fundraising). 

Anyway, I don't have empathy for these people for what they did Wednesday. It's on them for buying what Trump and his yahoos were selling.


----------



## espola (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Please show me where Trump said specifically to his people they should storm and occupy the Capitol.
> 
> If anything, under your theory, some Capitol police have more of a problem....
> 
> ...


So you are still in denial?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.
> 
> 1. There's no basis for that charge.  Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
> 2. They're probably not serious about it.  If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
> ...


You could be right.  I mean Trump won't do this, but he should just resign.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.
> 
> I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.
> 
> From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.


If Trump is a symptom, then he and his his should be used as example of what we do to kings around here.

And yes, if R's aren't convinced to go along then it becomes about containment. However I don't imagine the R's are any less aware of what a disruptive presence Trump can be for them, and this could be the chance (you know they are waiting for) to free themselves from him.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried.  And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer.
> 
> As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.


I have the same sentiment.  I can't stand Mitch.  He's an awful person generally speaking.  But, he has handled this situation really well, as have many other republicans.  Mitch has handled this with consistency and hasn't wavered under pressure.


----------



## blam (Jan 8, 2021)

Some trump supporters actually believe that Joe Biden will bring a one world government etc. etc..

Talk about delusion.

They also seem to have a problem with China. Trade with China have been beneficial to many American companies and enriched many American capitalists...of course American workers pay. We have wall street politicians, where do you think they will build the next factory? They will build it where they can get the best profit. The only answer is socialism/union which protects the Americans workers.

Union members can refuse to train overseas workers.

However, Trump supporters are also anti-union and anti-socialism..hard to please.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> If Trump is a symptom, then he and his his should be used as example of what we do to kings around here.
> 
> And yes, if R's aren't convinced to go along then it becomes about containment. However I don't imagine the R's are any less aware of what a disruptive presence Trump can be for them, and this could be the chance (you know they are waiting for) to free themselves from him.


I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.

Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

blam said:


> Some trump supporters actually believe that Joe Biden will bring a one world government etc. etc..
> 
> Talk about delusion.
> 
> ...


Well, Facebook and Twitter have been conducting a purge of rightist and anti-lockdowners since this happened.  And Apple and Google today are allegedly threatening to remove Parler from their app stores unless they agree to a speech code.  So while delusional, it's not as if they are completely divorced from reality.  

Meanwhile, Twitter seems o.k. with Chinese propaganda including stuff about the Uigurhs [sic]


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

espola said:


> So you are still in denial?


About what mi amigo?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.
> 
> Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.


I think similarly the dem base wants to see movement on impeachment. I don't think the dems are serious about it. I think it's mostly posturing right now. I mean they really don't even have the time to deal with it. 

It wouldn't surprise me if Trump is calling Biden and asking for a pardon if he resigns.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, Facebook and Twitter have been conducting a purge of rightist and anti-lockdowners since this happened.  And Apple and Google today are allegedly threatening to remove Parler from their app stores unless they agree to a speech code.  So while delusional, it's not as if they are completely divorced from reality.
> 
> Meanwhile, Twitter seems o.k. with Chinese propaganda including stuff about the Uigurhs [sic]


Where are you seeing the purge of anti-lockdowners and rightist?  They've been hammering on conspiracy theories, but there's plenty of right wing folks on Twitter.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.
> 
> Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.


Well... per this last election having all of Trumps base didn't lead to Trump getting re-elected. And after the sacking of Washington I'd assume he'd do even worse if the vote were held today.  Especially among those suburban women who fled the party this past election. To impeach I'd assume 20 or so Republicans would have to join democrats... and I'd also guess there are at least 20 republican senators who rely on suburban votes.  So my spidey sense the cause is not yet lost.

Although I will grant you, Nancy Pelosi proved to be about the only person on earth unable to manipulate Trump. So it would be foolish for me to underestimate her seemingly total inability to reach across the aisle and pluck low lying fruit is this case either.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I think similarly the dem base wants to see movement on impeachment. I don't think the dems are serious about it. I think it's mostly posturing right now. I mean they really don't even have the time to deal with it.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Trump is calling Biden and asking for a pardon if he resigns.


Yeah on D's.

More likely T is calling Pence and asking him, that's been thrown out there previously. Unfortunately, he just threw Pence under the bus, so If I'm Pence, I'd say - ABSOLUTELY, and then fuck him over once I'm sworn in ... and deny the conversation ever happened, and bury the recording on National Security grounds (cos he'd now be the Pres). 

it would be sweet ... please make it happen.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... per this last election having all of Trumps base didn't lead to Trump getting re-elected. And after the sacking of Washington I'd assume he'd do even worse if the vote were held today.  Especially among those suburban women who fled the party this past election. To impeach I'd assume 20 or so Republicans would have to join democrats... and I'd also guess there are at least 20 republican senators who rely on suburban votes.  So my spidey sense the cause is not yet lost.
> 
> Although I will grant you, Nancy Pelosi proved to be about the only person on earth unable to manipulate Trump. So it would be foolish for me to underestimate her seemingly total inability to reach across the aisle and pluck low lying fruit is this case either.


True, but without T I expect that the R's would have done much worse down the ballot ... alternatively the D's probably wouldn't have turned out as many either, so who knows.

I doubt either party want an impeachment slugfest for the next 2 weeks, so lots of posturing will go on before they'll all say, we're out of time ... and shift in a blink of an eye to arguments about another stimulus vs OMG look at the debt ...


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Where are you seeing the purge of anti-lockdowners and rightist?  They've been hammering on conspiracy theories, but there's plenty of right wing folks on Twitter.


I've had 3 of my antilockdowners sources removed from twitter for disputing the mask science, including a personal friend.  I've seen similar complaints among the rightists....don't know if it's true or not as I have not personally seen...just heard referrals.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Yeah on D's.
> 
> More likely T is calling Pence and asking him, that's been thrown out there previously. Unfortunately, he just threw Pence under the bus, so If I'm Pence, I'd say - ABSOLUTELY, and then fuck him over once I'm sworn in ... and deny the conversation ever happened, and bury the recording on National Security grounds (cos he'd now be the Pres).
> 
> it would be sweet ... please make it happen.


I'd be in favor of this purely because it would force children to learn this historical oddity for years into the future, however long the Republic lasts....


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> True, but without T I expect that the R's would have done much worse down the ballot ... alternatively the D's probably wouldn't have turned out as many either, so who knows.
> 
> I doubt either party want an impeachment slugfest for the next 2 weeks, so lots of posturing will go on before they'll all say, we're out of time ... and shift in a blink of an eye to arguments about another stimulus vs OMG look at the debt ...


My read on the past election was a lot of R's votes went split ticket.  Against all expectations Republican's were set to hold the Senate (until Trump screwed it up), made gains in the House... but lost ground on the Presidency.  

This isn't about the Dems, this is about Trump being in a position to exact payback in the next round of primaries.  Democrats just need to get out of the way and let the R's do the dirty work themselves would be my guess.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've had 3 of my antilockdowners sources removed from twitter for disputing the mask science, including a personal friend.  I've seen similar complaints among the rightists....don't know if it's true or not as I have not personally seen...just heard referrals.


I'm guessing they were incessant or had a large following. It's hard to get banned from twitter. They generally don't like to block any tweets or the people that tweet those tweets. This has historically been a problem for Twitter as people have complained they don't do enough. What we've seen recently is a newish behavior by the company.

Interestingly enough I did a quick search on Twitter for "masks don't work"....and came across this tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347598242809139208
These people definitely thought the election would be overturned.  Notice the Q flag.  You really have to be a nutjob to buy into this QAnon stuff.  I wonder what the percentage of people there were QAnon.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've had 3 of my antilockdowners sources removed from twitter for disputing the mask science, including a personal friend.  I've seen similar complaints among the rightists....don't know if it's true or not as I have not personally seen...just heard referrals.


Stuff like this I expect

Twitter suspends Trump allies and QAnon boosters Michael Flynn and Sidney Powell, and vows to permanently remove QAnon accounts (msn.com)


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

And now Trump's account is suspended:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347684877634838528
Did he tweet something new?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Stuff like this I expect
> 
> Twitter suspends Trump allies and QAnon boosters Michael Flynn and Sidney Powell, and vows to permanently remove QAnon accounts (msn.com)


Well I can tell you it's not just Trump and the QAnon boosters.  They are purging the little guys too.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm guessing they were incessant or had a large following. It's hard to get banned from twitter. They generally don't like to block any tweets or the people that tweet those tweets. This has historically been a problem for Twitter as people have complained they don't do enough. What we've seen recently is a newish behavior by the company.
> 
> Interestingly enough I did a quick search on Twitter for "masks don't work"....and came across this tweet:
> 
> ...


They haven't gone after any establishment types yet like Rand Paul or even Cruz/Hawley (but I think it was S&S that pulled Hawley's book deal) but it's a wider purge than just Trump and the Qanon.  I can tell you a good friend who's done a lot of antilockdown and mask limitations research got caught up in the purge and he does not talk politics.  It's also no coincidence Parler is being threatened the same day.  This is a very grave mistake and will serve to only inflame tensions.  I'm telling you guys....things are going to get worse in the coming years.

Twitter may get away with it if it's some of these small fry things and Trump but we are pretty close to a tipping point.  Nothing will galvanize the right more than censorship particularly since they are wrapping it up not just politics, but also vaccines and the lockdowns, and what will particularly gall conservatives is the blatant double standard when it comes to the PRC and its puppet institutions.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> They haven't gone after any establishment types yet like Rand Paul or even Cruz/Hawley (but I think it was S&S that pulled Hawley's book deal) but it's a wider purge than just Trump and the Qanon.  I can tell you a good friend who's done a lot of antilockdown and mask limitations research got caught up in the purge and he does not talk politics.  It's also no coincidence Parler is being threatened the same day.  This is a very grave mistake and will serve to only inflame tensions.  I'm telling you guys....things are going to get worse in the coming years.
> 
> Twitter may get away with it if it's some of these small fry things and Trump but we are pretty close to a tipping point.  Nothing will galvanize the right more than censorship particularly since they are wrapping it up not just politics, but also vaccines and the lockdowns, and what will particularly gall conservatives is the blatant double standard when it comes to the PRC and its puppet institutions.


I've no doubt that the conservative media will continue to play the victim of how everyone is against them. They'll do this on Fox, NewsMax & OAN - on talk radio stations all over the country - on reddit and parler (just not on the parler app on the iPhone maybe) etc. and so on.

The irony of doing this on the multitude of channels they are on and that are available to them will be lost on the listeners, but probably not on the broadcasters.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> They haven't gone after any establishment types yet like Rand Paul or even Cruz/Hawley (but I think it was S&S that pulled Hawley's book deal) but it's a wider purge than just Trump and the Qanon.  I can tell you a good friend who's done a lot of antilockdown and mask limitations research got caught up in the purge and he does not talk politics.  It's also no coincidence Parler is being threatened the same day.  This is a very grave mistake and will serve to only inflame tensions.  I'm telling you guys....things are going to get worse in the coming years.
> 
> Twitter may get away with it if it's some of these small fry things and Trump but we are pretty close to a tipping point.  Nothing will galvanize the right more than censorship particularly since they are wrapping it up not just politics, but also vaccines and the lockdowns, and what will particularly gall conservatives is the blatant double standard when it comes to the PRC and its puppet institutions.


Yeah without knowing the details with your friend it's hard to know what happened. I have a hard time believing it was just for talking about how masks don't work. 

Parler should worry more about Amazon. Looks like they're hosted in some part on AWS. It's definitely a cesspool on that platform. Otherwise Apple and Google banning them from their respective app stores really doesn't do the job. People can still access it via the Web. Conspiracy theorists always had their niche ways to talk about chem-trails and cannibal politicians before the Internet. I'm sure they will adapt somehow. This could be good for the GOP as they could build a more solid base instead of banking on crazies. 

I do find this entertaining, as the right is pro-privatization. Guess what Twitter is? A private company.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I've no doubt that the conservative media will continue to play the victim of how everyone is against them. They'll do this on Fox, NewsMax & OAN - on talk radio stations all over the country - on reddit and parler (just not on the parler app on the iPhone maybe) etc. and so on.
> 
> The irony of doing this on the multitude of channels they are on and that are available to them will be lost on the listeners, but probably not on the broadcasters.


Oh come on....twitter went and restricted the Hunter Biden story despite it later turning out to have at least some credibility.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I do find this entertaining, as the right is pro-privatization. Guess what Twitter is? A private company.


Well, judging from the reaction on right wing twitter, it seems like many (if this goes forward)  might be leaving twitter for parler (parler has crashed BTW).  Assuming Parler does arise as a competitor, well then there's no issue.  But if it doesn't, there's potentially an antitrust monopoly problem there.  Certainly the decision (if it happens) to ban parler from the google/apple stores raises concerns about monopoly power and likely will be challenged in court on antitrust grounds.

It's another dark day for democracy.  Not quite as dark as the storming of the capitol but a dark day and good things are not ahead of us.  If I had a doomsday clock for the dissolution of the Republic, the pandemic would have moved the clock from 1 to 2, the spring riots to 2:30, Trump and his reaction to the elections and the way the elections were conducted to 3:30, the storming of the Capitol to 4.  This and the resulting reaction to 4:30.  Not saying it will happen....but dark days for the Republic


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh come on....twitter went and restricted the Hunter Biden story despite it later turning out to have at least some credibility.


Oh come on ... are you seriously suggesting that the conservative media are paragons of beauty & light, never mind truth and have no bias and don't kill storied that don't fit their agenda. But heaven forbid someone should do the same to one they want to peddle!

I've zero idea what Twitter did with the Hunter Biden story. He wasn't running for any office I was aware of, so I zoned out that whole nonsense.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> They haven't gone after any establishment types yet like Rand Paul or even Cruz/Hawley (but I think it was S&S that pulled Hawley's book deal) but it's a wider purge than just Trump and the Qanon.  I can tell you a good friend who's done a lot of antilockdown and mask limitations research got caught up in the purge and he does not talk politics.  It's also no coincidence Parler is being threatened the same day.  This is a very grave mistake and will serve to only inflame tensions.  I'm telling you guys....things are going to get worse in the coming years.
> 
> Twitter may get away with it if it's some of these small fry things and Trump but we are pretty close to a tipping point.  Nothing will galvanize the right more than censorship particularly since they are wrapping it up not just politics, but also vaccines and the lockdowns, and what will particularly gall conservatives is the blatant double standard when it comes to the PRC and its puppet institutions.


I work in entertainment, and so by default have a lot of very liberal friends on Facebook. A good friend of mine was just complaining that some fb post he made about sending in the National Guard to clean things up in during the riots got censored and he was warned about being on probation if he kept it up.

So I don't think it's just the right wing that's getting caught up in it, its the far lefties too. Neither side hears about it though, because what's happening to everyone else rarely pierces the partisan bubble.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, judging from the reaction on right wing twitter, it seems like many (if this goes forward)  might be leaving twitter for parler (parler has crashed BTW).  Assuming Parler does arise as a competitor, well then there's no issue.  But if it doesn't, there's potentially an antitrust monopoly problem there.  Certainly the decision (if it happens) to ban parler from the google/apple stores raises concerns about monopoly power and likely will be challenged in court on antitrust grounds.


There's no monopoly issue - Twitter hasn't done anything to Parler. Its a social media platform and has competitors.

Parler can join the ongoing case from Spotify and others against Apple, or has that been settled.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Oh come on ... are you seriously suggesting that the conservative media are paragons of beauty & light, never mind truth and have no bias and don't kill storied that don't fit their agenda. But heaven forbid someone should do the same to one they want to peddle!
> 
> I've zero idea what Twitter did with the Hunter Biden story. He wasn't running for any office I was aware of, so I zoned out that whole nonsense.


Not at all.  But for comparison twitter is still allowing not only PRC accounts but also Antifa accounts inciting violence in Portland.  If anything I'm strongly opposed to siloing and greatly think the fall of the nightly news and the impartiality of the mainstream media (which may have been a chimera but at least existed on its face) was a great loss.  

What may happen now if Twitter continues to push this is that figures like Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, etc. may push out.  If that happens it's going to be a great tragedy for the nation because I don't like echo chambers.

And yes, twitter and the main stream media did suppress the Hunter Biden story.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I work in entertainment, and so by default have a lot of very liberal friends on Facebook. A good friend of mine was just complaining that some fb post he made about sending in the National Guard to clean things up in during the riots got censored and he was warned about being on probation if he kept it up.
> 
> So I don't think it's just the right wing that's getting caught up in it, its the far lefties too. Neither side hears about it though, because what's happening to everyone else rarely pierces the partisan bubble.


If true, then the other possibility is twitter signs its death warrant because the left will pull out as well leaving only mainstream and promotional partners.  I hope your right and it's possible that the right is just getting the attention because of Trump's ban.  My gut tells me you aren't, but we'll see.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> There were a lot of Qanon folks there. A lot of these folks buy into conspiracy theories. Trump's own tweets were suggesting Pence could decide at the certification process which states electoral votes to accept. It's incredibly bizarre when you think about it. Yeah, I definitely think those folks thought the election was stolen due to mass fraud and that it was going to be overturned. I mean this is what Trump has been telling them the whole time while he continued his grift (fundraising).
> 
> Anyway, I don't have empathy for these people for what they did Wednesday. It's on them for buying what Trump and his yahoos were selling.


This is why the buffoon should be impeached. Conspiracy theories and all this other magat crap will continue to perpetuate and metastasize for as long as the head POS and his disgusting marmalade spawn are allowed to have any kind of voice. All of them need to be raked over the coals again and again and constantly put on the defensive until the end of time. Anyone who thinks we should play nice with the face painted bozo the clown is short-sighted. Yes, these maggoty f**ks will throw a fit, but trumpanzees are a pathetic bunch and really aren’t the problem without their Orange Jesus. They can’t effectively organize in any meaningful sense without him, and they certainly can’t read more than 280 characters, and even that appears to be gone forever. It’s over and it needs to be made clear to the next wannabe dictator - you know that foreigner with the canadian birth certificate and the ugly wife whose dad killed JFK - what happens to their kind.

In other words, the magat crackpot gospel is a lot less compelling when the newspapers report that the purported Lord and Savior filed BK, was impeached twice, his wife left him after strong-arming the worst dealmaker in history to give up the pre-nup, and he craps his pants every day in the hoosegow. If there is an opportunity to impeach, do it. Criminally prosecute? Do it. Civil lawsuit?  Awesome possum. Piss on his shoes? Lead the way. Spit on their food? How do I get a job at restaurant? It doesn’t matter if not all of these efforts succeed.  What is important is to keep the pressure on him and his and his shit for brains children, keep their expenses skyrocketing, and their revenue collapsing.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not at all.  But for comparison twitter is still allowing not only PRC accounts but also Antifa accounts inciting violence in Portland.  If anything I'm strongly opposed to siloing and greatly think the fall of the nightly news and the impartiality of the mainstream media (which may have been a chimera but at least existed on its face) was a great loss.
> 
> What may happen now if Twitter continues to push this is that figures like Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, etc. may push out.  If that happens it's going to be a great tragedy for the nation because I don't like echo chambers.
> 
> And yes, twitter and the main stream media did suppress the Hunter Biden story.


Qanon.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If true, then the other possibility is twitter signs its death warrant because the left will pull out as well leaving only mainstream and promotional partners.  I hope your right and it's possible that the right is just getting the attention because of Trump's ban.  My gut tells me you aren't, but we'll see.


The Hunter Biden story was the one that Trump got recorded telling the President of Ukraine he would cut off US Aid if they didn't find a way to order the arrest of Biden's son right?  Hmmm... got to tell you, it wasn't so much that I wasn't aware the story was there as much as I could be bothered to actually follow it. Regardless of what Facebook told me to do one way or the other.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not at all.  But for comparison twitter is still allowing not only PRC accounts but also Antifa accounts inciting violence in Portland.  If anything I'm strongly opposed to siloing and greatly think the fall of the nightly news and the impartiality of the mainstream media (which may have been a chimera but at least existed on its face) was a great loss.
> 
> What may happen now if Twitter continues to push this is that figures like Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, etc. may push out.  If that happens it's going to be a great tragedy for the nation because I don't like echo chambers.
> 
> And yes, twitter and the main stream media did suppress the Hunter Biden story.


One of the fundamental problems at the moment, IMV, is the existing echo chambers, both in what people will only tune into, e.g. only watch Fox News and nothing else vs only MSNBC and nothing else, and the social media algorithms which push like content to you, hence reinforcing views and making people "think" that all the new content is just appearing and just happens to reinforce their already entrenched positions.

No idea what Twitter is doing at the moment. I look at it rarely and rely on it for nothing news wise, so its just a 'meh' from me. It could vanish tomorrow and would have zero impact.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> The Hunter Biden story was the one that Trump got recorded telling the President of Ukraine he would cut off US Aide if they didn't find a way to order the arrest of Biden's son right?  Hmmm... got to tell you, it wasn't so much that I wasn't aware the story was there as much as I could be bothered to actually follow it. Regardless of what Facebook told me to do one way or the other.


Nah the one where Hunter Biden got a Burisma board position for no reason or experience, where he had business dealings with China despite the lack of experience, and where allusions were made by the Biden family that Joe Biden was involved and aware, including by their former business partner and the recovered laptop.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> One of the fundamental problems at the moment, IMV, is the existing echo chambers, both in what people will only tune into, e.g. only watch Fox News and nothing else vs only MSNBC and nothing else, and the social media algorithms which push like content to you, hence reinforcing views and making people "think" that all the new content is just appearing and just happens to reinforce their already entrenched positions.
> 
> No idea what Twitter is doing at the moment. I look at it rarely and rely on it for nothing news wise, so its just a 'meh' from me. It could vanish tomorrow and would have zero impact.


I like your comment but it's clear you still watch television.      I don't....too slow of means to hand out info.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 8, 2021)

Not even sure if this is true, (with Twitter you never know,) but there is a story floating that one of the men who died "tazed his testicles to death". Meaning, he had a tazer in his pocket that accidentally tazed his testicles causing a heart attack.

Again, not sure if it's true. But if it is- WTH!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Nah the one where Hunter Biden got a Burisma board position for no reason or experience, where he had business dealings with China despite the lack of experience, and where allusions were made by the Biden family that Joe Biden was involved and aware, including by their former business partner and the recovered laptop.


Qanon. Does anyone wonder why the Hunter Biden laptop story went nowhere? Because it was so ridiculously fake and made up that no one other than Q disciples lome Grace-Karen believe it.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I like your comment but it's clear you still watch television.      I don't....too slow of means to hand out info.


Yes, Parler is far superior to Newsmax for pumping out new lies per minute.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If true, then the other possibility is twitter signs its death warrant because the left will pull out as well leaving only mainstream and promotional partners.  I hope your right and it's possible that the right is just getting the attention because of Trump's ban.  My gut tells me you aren't, but we'll see.


Parler is going to have to confront a few things:

- They're going to have to deal with the fact that these platforms have to confront censorship at some point. Twitter historically pushed back big time on requests from government agencies (not just the US) to remove accounts, etc. Parler will be no different. 

- They have no monetization. It costs a lot of money to run this kind of platform. Right now their traffic is pretty low, so it's probably not a huge issue. The only people going there are the crazies and people that want to watch the crazies.

- They need to have engineering expertise to run a platform like this at scale. Most people in Tech would have no interest in working at Parler. 

Not saying they can't make it happen, but the chips are stacked against them. My prediction is Parler folds in 2 years. Everyone relaxes and gets used to Biden as president.


----------



## blam (Jan 8, 2021)

I am waiting for the conspiracy theory that the capitol police "let" them in so that they can later use it as excuse to remove Trump.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Not saying they can't make it happen, but the chips are stacked against them. My prediction is Parler folds in 2 years. Everyone relaxes and gets used to Biden as president.


Parler depends on what twitter does and how far they go.  Banning Trump is a Rubicon that even some anti-Trumpists or some of those disgusted with Trump's behavior (like myself) can't support.  If not Parler, it will be a different app.  Conservative thinkers like Ben Shapiro have been circling around creating different conservative silos to engage in the cultural war....some things like movies and universities are harder to recreate due to structural impediments in the markets.  At least with Parler, they have a platform up and running, but I do agree they'll be challenges with respect to Parler's own structure.  This does feel like a watershed event to me, though, and my gut has generally been right about these things.  It's another step forward towards separation, and like I've been arguing Trump is the dam not the river (things don't get better because Trump goes away and if Biden is thinking that way it sets him up for failure).

Biden has some very deep structural issues, including foundations in the economy which are very weak as the result of the pandemic, which he is facing.  He will either go down as one of our greatest presidents, or his term will be ...what's the word...Buchananesque....he has to be Lincoln or he'll end up being Buchanan.  Given his own physical and mental limitations, and the fact his allies don't seem to be doing him any tactical favors, I'm not particularly hopeful.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I like your comment but it's clear you still watch television.      I don't....too slow of means to hand out info.


Not really, and very little news - mostly sports or movies. I'm equally turned off by MSNBC, CNN or Fox News. If I do watch news it would be CBS.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Parler depends on what twitter does and how far they go.  Banning Trump is a Rubicon that even some anti-Trumpists or some of those disgusted with Trump's behavior (like myself) can't support.  If not Parler, it will be a different app.  Conservative thinkers like Ben Shapiro have been circling around creating different conservative silos to engage in the cultural war....some things like movies and universities are harder to recreate due to structural impediments in the markets.  At least with Parler, they have a platform up and running, but I do agree they'll be challenges with respect to Parler's own structure.  This does feel like a watershed event to me, though, and my gut has generally been right about these things.  It's another step forward towards separation, and like I've been arguing Trump is the dam not the river (things don't get better because Trump goes away and if Biden is thinking that way it sets him up for failure).
> 
> Biden has some very deep structural issues, including foundations in the economy which are very weak as the result of the pandemic, which he is facing.  He will either go down as one of our greatest presidents, or his term will be ...what's the word...Buchananesque....he has to be Lincoln or he'll end up being Buchanan.  Given his own physical and mental limitations, and the fact his allies don't seem to be doing him any tactical favors, I'm not particularly hopeful.


Ben Shapiro  

Let's check back in 2 years.  My gut is pretty good on predicting these things as well. My prediction is that Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram will still be the predominate social media platforms.  Anything beyond that will be fringe.  Parler will be gone as well.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Ben Shapiro


Ben's an acquaintance.  Daily Wire has done very well despite the cancel culture advertising.  Ben recently moved out of California to Nashville.

One of the keys to be able to predict what happens next is you've got to check your sources and not be siloed.  If you can only see the one partisan side, the only way you can get it right is if your side wins unconditionally.  If that's what you are arguing, you are wrong.  We are more likely to be in a shooting civil war than the Trumpists going away...they aren't, they won't.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ben's an acquaintance.  Daily Wire has done very well despite the cancel culture advertising.  Ben recently moved out of California to Nashville.
> 
> One of the keys to be able to predict what happens next is you've got to check your sources and not be siloed.  If you can only see the one partisan side, the only way you can get it right is if your side wins unconditionally.  If that's what you are arguing, you are wrong.  We are more likely to be in a shooting civil war than the Trumpists going away...they aren't, they won't.


Ben Shapiro is a douche. Feel free in relaying that to him  

Like I said, let's check back in 2 years.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ben's an acquaintance.  Daily Wire has done very well despite the cancel culture advertising.  Ben recently moved out of California to Nashville.
> 
> One of the keys to be able to predict what happens next is you've got to check your sources and not be siloed.  If you can only see the one partisan side, the only way you can get it right is if your side wins unconditionally.  If that's what you are arguing, you are wrong.  We are more likely to be in a shooting civil war than the Trumpists going away...they aren't, they won't.


To me, if you look at the Trumpers as a symptom... it's represents the angst of middle class America in the time of globalization. So far the elites have been able to ignore those being left behind with the outsourcing of middle class union manufacturing jobs. But soon if they want to keep using America as a stable base to do business they are going to have to make it work with the locals. Or as you say... the Trumpists, the BLM and all the riots ain't going away.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Parler depends on what twitter does and how far they go.  Banning Trump is a Rubicon that even some anti-Trumpists or some of those disgusted with Trump's behavior (like myself) can't support.  If not Parler, it will be a different app.  Conservative thinkers like Ben Shapiro have been circling around creating different conservative silos to engage in the cultural war....some things like movies and universities are harder to recreate due to structural impediments in the markets.  At least with Parler, they have a platform up and running, but I do agree they'll be challenges with respect to Parler's own structure.  This does feel like a watershed event to me, though, and my gut has generally been right about these things.  It's another step forward towards separation, and like I've been arguing Trump is the dam not the river (things don't get better because Trump goes away and if Biden is thinking that way it sets him up for failure).
> 
> Biden has some very deep structural issues, including foundations in the economy which are very weak as the result of the pandemic, which he is facing.  He will either go down as one of our greatest presidents, or his term will be ...what's the word...Buchananesque....he has to be Lincoln or he'll end up being Buchanan.  Given his own physical and mental limitations, and the fact his allies don't seem to be doing him any tactical favors, I'm not particularly hopeful.


Has anyone else noticed how magats and their apologists completely skip over whether the Cheesepuff in Chief’s Twitter posts are presidential, or remotely accurate, or even the the bare minimum in civility?  Instead, they move straight to whether his abhorrent statements were so grossly vile as to merit Twitter kicking him out?  And then frame Twitter as the bad guy, although the guy being banned is inciting violence and trying to tear down democracy.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> To me, if you look at the Trumpers as a symptom... it's represents the angst of middle class America in the time of globalization. So far the elites have been able to ignore those being left behind with the outsourcing of middle class union manufacturing jobs. But soon if they want to keep using America as a stable base to do business they are going to have to make it work with the locals. Or as you say... the Trumpists, the BLM and all the riots ain't going away.


Yeah, which is another weight against Biden.  He's neck deep in that world.  Hopefully, though, he still remembers his working class roots and can thread the needle with both.

Google apps just removed parler.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Parler depends on what twitter does and how far they go.  Banning Trump is a Rubicon that even some anti-Trumpists or some of those disgusted with Trump's behavior (like myself) can't support.  If not Parler, it will be a different app.  Conservative thinkers like Ben Shapiro have been circling around creating different conservative silos to engage in the cultural war....some things like movies and universities are harder to recreate due to structural impediments in the markets.  At least with Parler, they have a platform up and running, but I do agree they'll be challenges with respect to Parler's own structure.  This does feel like a watershed event to me, though, and my gut has generally been right about these things.  It's another step forward towards separation, and like I've been arguing Trump is the dam not the river (things don't get better because Trump goes away and if Biden is thinking that way it sets him up for failure).
> 
> Biden has some very deep structural issues, including foundations in the economy which are very weak as the result of the pandemic, which he is facing.  He will either go down as one of our greatest presidents, or his term will be ...what's the word...Buchananesque....he has to be Lincoln or he'll end up being Buchanan.  Given his own physical and mental limitations, and the fact his allies don't seem to be doing him any tactical favors, I'm not particularly hopeful.


Wrong. Parler depends on what Apple does to them. God you are so dumb. Apple clicks a button and it’s over for those seditionists. And it looks very much like it’s gonna happen.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, which is another weight against Biden.  He's neck deep in that world.  Hopefully, though, he still remembers his working class roots and can thread the needle with both.
> 
> Google apps just removed parler.


I definitely share your concerns around Biden. He definitely wasn't my first pick.

One thing that he has in his behavior is covid could be on its way out (yeah, I know there's a lot there). If in 6-9 months people's lives go back to normal, he's going to be looking pretty good. Hopefully from there he can focus on the worker and not start any wars. We shall see.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Hey @MSK357, did this Capitol Hill police officer die “with” injuries sustained defending our country from a coup?









						Police Confirm Death Of Officer Injured During Attack On Capitol
					

The Capitol Police said that officer Brian Sicknick died from his injuries and that several other officers injured in the attack remain hospitalized.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Actually I was born in the IE, dirt poor.  So the feel guilty stuff doesn't work on me.
> 
> Life is hard.  Your owed nothing. However you were lucky enough to have been born in a country where hard work and a little risk taking will allow you to rise as far as you want to go.  That's the world I want to get back to.


For some. Fortune doesn’t always favor hard work. Having willing partners is essential to success.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Militia expert Lawrence Rosenthal:

“These guys … believe that the liberal world is weak and flabby, and that they are the real tough guys. And when that gets shoved back in their face, they tend to scurry away. Biden has to turn loose his Justice department to do that.”

Let’s do it. Can’t wait to see these douches get bossed.


----------



## MSK357 (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Hey @MSK357, did this Capitol Hill police officer die “with” injuries sustained defending our country from a coup?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I wouldn't call it a coup though. I would call it a few bad apples acting a fool. Far fewer than the other side that literally controlled city blocks and a police station for almost a month.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

Good article on the subject.  The price the D's would pay is: a) removing a headache for the Republicans, b) distracting for Biden's legislative agenda and cabinet picks in the first 100 days in favor of an impeachment circus, c) years of litigation on the subject if Trump chooses to challenge it, and d) inflaming his now cowed supporters.  Biden's unity pitch would essentially go out the window.  It's a tactical mistake, particularly after the moves made by big tech.









						Republicans Meet With Senate Parliamentarian to Discuss Impeachment Timeline
					

A group of Senate Republicans including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) met Friday morning with the Senate parliamentarian in a ransacked office to discuss a timeline for impeachment proceedings, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the situation.




					freebeacon.com
				




 Trump may even further muddy the legal waters since this would likely cause him to blanket pardon himself (he's got nothing else to lose if he thinks it will happen).


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Y’all are wrong that impeaching the peachy colored ignoramous is a mistake. This time an impeachment has an (albeit low) chance, which puts a lot of pressure on him to resign and get the pardon from fly boy Pence. He’ll never get enough return phone calls from Senate offices to know for sure if he’s sage. If he takes his chances, he’ll need to give himself his fake self-pardon, pardon his family, the child molester Guiliani and a few more of the creeps before he wants to and while his impeachment is happening. All of that is as embarrassing as f**k and doesn’t exactly help his case. Every single thing that can be done to humiliate him between today and Jan 21 needs to be done, Kick the s**tbag at every opportunity starting right now. So long as he’s on the defensive, he gets more and more exposed as the fraud and embarrassment that he is. The magats will slink away.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Good article on the subject.  The price the D's would pay is: a) removing a headache for the Republicans, b) distracting for Biden's legislative agenda and cabinet picks in the first 100 days in favor of an impeachment circus, c) years of litigation on the subject if Trump chooses to challenge it, and d) inflaming his now cowed supporters.  Biden's unity pitch would essentially go out the window.  It's a tactical mistake, particularly after the moves made by big tech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He can’t pardon himself out of impeachment, numbskull, which is all the more reason to do it. There’s no distraction from Biden’s agenda. He’s not an incompetent stooge like your baboon of a boss, and has an actual plan. Oh, he also has both houses of Congress. The whole notion that the first 100 days are critical went away once Mr. Diaper man lowered the bar so low that speaking in complete sentences makes you seem overqualified. Bigly.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

For those who doubted the Rome analogy, Caesar the tyrant has been stabbed and is bleeding on the floor of the Senate after rumors he sought to declare himself king.  On the one side, beware of Brutus and Cassius.  They at first were hailed as heros, but the contempt of the equine for the proles led to them quickly becoming villains.  They believed they had restored the Republic and couldn't recognize it was already dead.  On the other, beware of Anthony and Augustus.  Assuming Caesar does pass from his injuries, the winning move for a politician on the right is "I've come to bury Caesar, not to praise him".  To thread this, Biden will need to be a better man than Cicero.










						Trump went 'ballistic' after being tossed off Twitter
					

The 'Hemingway of 140 characters' has lost his favorite bullhorn.




					www.politico.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> For those who doubted the Rome analogy, Caesar the tyrant has been stabbed and is bleeding on the floor of the Senate after rumors he sought to declare himself king.  On the one side, beware of Brutus and Cassius.  They at first were hailed as heros, but the contempt of the equine for the proles led to them quickly becoming villains.  They believed they had restored the Republic and couldn't recognize it was already dead.  On the other, beware of Anthony and Augustus.  Assuming Caesar does pass from his injuries, the winning move for a politician on the right is "I've come to bury Caesar, not to praise him".  To thread this, Biden will need to be a better man than Cicero.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? I’m all for hyperbole and all, but there is absolutely zero similarity between Julius Ceasar and the Orange Julius.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

blam said:


> I am waiting for the conspiracy theory that the capitol police "let" them in so that they can later use it as excuse to remove Trump.


Not a conspiracy but a complete lack of leadership and a failure to plan.  40,000 people on a permit on such a significant day?  Why refuse the help?  It's not a conspiracy in the least, just incompetence.  And a request for national guard assets 2 days prior doesn't cut it.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Militia expert Lawrence Rosenthal:
> 
> “These guys … believe that the liberal world is weak and flabby, and that they are the real tough guys. And when that gets shoved back in their face, they tend to scurry away. Biden has to turn loose his Justice department to do that.”
> 
> Let’s do it. Can’t wait to see these douches get bossed.


Such nonsense - it's not a partisan effort to undermine, prosecute, and defeat  right wing groups, or any wing groups for that matter.  All of a sudden, a Biden led administration is going to kick ass all over right wing militias?  Crazy talk. The Federal Government has a horrible track record when confronting any wing groups.  Their efforts have only increased membership, especially in right wing groups.  They don't have a real appetite for getting their hands dirty when it comes to these groups and would rather react. But his words sound cool and gets people in his neighborhood all fired up.  They put down their lattes and raise their fists in support. Give me a break.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 8, 2021)

MSK357 said:


> Yes, I wouldn't call it a coup though. I would call it a few bad apples acting a fool. Far fewer than the other side that literally controlled city blocks and a police station for almost a month.


Let's not forget a legit siege of a federal building in portland for months - with documented proof of attempted murder of Federal Officers by antifa latte warriors.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 8, 2021)

The ACLU has come out hard against the twitter purges.  I used to be a member and have been disappointed by its turn towards wokeness so I am pleasantly surprised.

Rs including those that have condemned Trump for his actions and voted against challenging the electoral count (notably Graham who was recently accosted in an airport by Trump supporters) have said the logical end result is under the same financial challenges standards impeaching Joe Biden for the Hunter Biden stuff and Kamala Harris for the incitement stuff if control of the house shifts.  The end result of this is going to be constant impeachments by the Congress over sitting presidents they think have crossed behavior lines.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Parler depends on what twitter does and how far they go.  Banning Trump is a Rubicon that even some anti-Trumpists or some of those disgusted with Trump's behavior (like myself) can't support.  If not Parler, it will be a different app.  Conservative thinkers like Ben Shapiro have been circling around creating different conservative silos to engage in the cultural war....some things like movies and universities are harder to recreate due to structural impediments in the markets.  At least with Parler, they have a platform up and running, but I do agree they'll be challenges with respect to Parler's own structure.  This does feel like a watershed event to me, though, and my gut has generally been right about these things.  It's another step forward towards separation, and like I've been arguing Trump is the dam not the river (things don't get better because Trump goes away and if Biden is thinking that way it sets him up for failure).
> 
> Biden has some very deep structural issues, including foundations in the economy which are very weak as the result of the pandemic, which he is facing.  He will either go down as one of our greatest presidents, or his term will be ...what's the word...Buchananesque....he has to be Lincoln or he'll end up being Buchanan.  Given his own physical and mental limitations, and the fact his allies don't seem to be doing him any tactical favors, I'm not particularly hopeful.


Oops, turns out you had no clue what Parler actually depends on.  So who are Google and Apple in your goofy Roman analogy? 



			Redirect Notice


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

The pathetic ineptitude of the magats is truly astounding

Due to extraordinary stupidity and blind allegiance to The Orange Bozo the Clown of Mar-a-Lago, the Herman Cain award and immediate entrant into the Magat hall of fame goes to Kevin Greelen, who stormed the Capitol yesterday with a taser concealed in his pants. He was in the process of stealing a portrait of Tip O’Neill  when he accidentally & repeatedly discharged the taser. He tased himself in the balls until he suffered a fatal  heart attack.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347411866247548928


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The ACLU has come out hard against the twitter purges.  I used to be a member and have been disappointed by its turn towards wokeness so I am pleasantly surprised.
> 
> Rs including those that have condemned Trump for his actions and voted against challenging the electoral count (notably Graham who was recently accosted in an airport by Trump supporters) have said the logical end result is under the same financial challenges standards impeaching Joe Biden for the Hunter Biden stuff and Kamala Harris for the incitement stuff if control of the house shifts.  The end result of this is going to be constant impeachments by the Congress over sitting presidents they think have crossed behavior lines.


Bothsides-ism. Marmalade-a-lago attempts to take down democracy, but that’s the same as Child Molester Guiliani planting and then “finding” a fake Hunter Biden laptop at a computer repair shop in BFE. Sure.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Public Service Announcement: Honestly, I’m running low on perjorative nicknames for Mr. Failed Coup with the Orange Hue. I apologize if I start recycling or just call him s**tbag for a while.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, Facebook and Twitter have been conducting a purge of rightist and anti-lockdowners since this happened. And Apple and Google today are allegedly threatening to remove Parler from their app stores unless they agree to a speech code. So while delusional, it's not as if they are completely divorced from reality.


Actually this is a big problem. 

We only have a few platforms that are somewhat universal in terms of communication. Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Over the past year and especially the last half year, these platforms have blocked messaging from the right. Their reasoning is not consistent since they do not apply the same rules to the left. Now some may argue they are private companies...and they are. But at the same time they are essentially monopolies. By that I mean if you cannot message on those 3 you effectively are not messaging. 

I personally am not happy or comfortable with the idea that now ideas are being suppressed. 

Take for instance the NY Post stories on the Hunter Biden laptop. They produced emails, photos, etc of what appears to be shall we say sketchy behavior on the part of Hunter that ALSO includes payments from various government. Twitter banned the NY Post stories saying that they do not allow stories about hacked or illegally gained information to be propagated. Yet just a few months ago, they allowed NY Times stories about Trump taxes that were illegally leaked. So they are inconsistent. 

They have blocked certain Trump tweets saying it promotes violence. Yet allow tweets from Iran threatening violence as another example. 

And so on. 

It is actually a scary thing if we now have gatekeepers like that that suppress speech/thought from one side of the political spectrum, but not the other. 


As a general rule I believe Sunshine is the best disinfectant for various speech/thought. And generally private companies do have the right to limit what is on their platform. 

However when their platforms are basically the only ones used worldwide (twitter, instagram, facebook, etc) and they are censoring certain content, we do have a problem since it effectively silences a significant portion of the population.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's also no coincidence Parler is being threatened the same day. This is a very grave mistake and will serve to only inflame tensions. I'm telling you guys....things are going to get worse in the coming years.


It is a terrible mistake silencing a side you do not agree with. And they have been doing it much more over the past year. 

With these big corporations, there are only a few big platforms that reach the masses. The owners of these platforms have started to take sides. NOT a good thing.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Certainly the decision (if it happens) to ban parler from the google/apple stores raises concerns about monopoly power and likely will be challenged in court on antitrust grounds.
> 
> It's another dark day for democracy. Not quite as dark as the storming of the capitol but a dark day and good things are not ahead of us. I


Actually is a dark day. And the banning of thought/speech/ideas from various sites has much more long term (bad) consequences vs what happened the other day in the capital.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I've zero idea what Twitter did with the Hunter Biden story. He wasn't running for any office I was aware of, so I zoned out that whole nonsense.


Because of the following below. 



Grace T. said:


> And yes, twitter and the main stream media did suppress the Hunter Biden story.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually this is a big problem.
> 
> We only have a few platforms that are somewhat universal in terms of communication. Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Over the past year and especially the last half year, these platforms have blocked messaging from the right. Their reasoning is not consistent since they do not apply the same rules to the left. Now some may argue they are private companies...and they are. But at the same time they are essentially monopolies. By that I mean if you cannot message on those 3 you effectively are not messaging.
> 
> ...


Whiners don’t like the 1st Amendment and the free market when it doesn’t suit their position. Twitter has a 1st Amendment right to tell you magats to f**k off. If you don’t like it, make your own social media platform using the free market. You’re drawing such huge support here, I think you’re ready. So snowflakey.

Orange Chicken Little claims the sky is falling now that he can’t spread his hate to all his treasonous trumpanzee followers with his thumbs. No it’s not. He can try being a real man and hold a press conference in the press room of the WH. Or gosh, maybe he should not have been such a POS and ignored months and months of polite warnings. But still not a peep out of the magats here about the abhorrent conduct that got their boy banned in the first place. They want to be sh**bags without having to face repercussions for it. Well, it turns out all that big business you wanted so much to get all those massive tax breaks at the expense of social welfare thank you very much for your stupidity, now trickle down your way out of here.


----------



## notintheface (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> My prediction is Parler folds in 2 years.


You misspelled "days".


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> This is such a pathetic argument. I wish someone would rid me of this meddlesome Karen.


Same old argument he never said it precisely, so.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Oops, turns out you had no clue what Parler actually depends on.  So who are Google and Apple in your goofy Roman analogy?
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


I suppose they would be the chorus... or the voice of the people as was the trope of Greek drama. 

It's funny, even the Greeks 3000 years ago saw and understood that there could be a major disconnect between the kings, queens and heroes and the chorus / regular people. Watching some of the jokers we got in Washington strut around patting themselves on the back and I'm reminded of how little things have changed.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 9, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually is a dark day. And the banning of thought/speech/ideas from various sites has much more long term (bad) consequences vs what happened the other day in the capital.


Idk.  I share the negative reflective response when it comes to almost all issues of censorship. 

However I see little downside to restrictions on yelling 'fire' in a crowed theater.  Likewise I see little long term damage to restricting post calling flash mobs to destroy other peoples property. Nor do I see little harm in restricting things like spreading peoples kids cell numbers on the internet so wackos can call and harass them as a means of hurting the parent.

To me talking about a few common sense restrictions over internet behavior seems somewhat warranted.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Let's not forget a legit siege of a federal building in portland for months - with documented proof of attempted murder of Federal Officers by antifa latte warriors.


Not only wasn't it put down, but local leaders were able to prevent anyone else from coming in and cleaning it up either.
What did Trump learned from this you might ask? Well lets just say I can just imagine visions of pro trump municipalities doing the same in his name. 

To me this isn't an either or.  The woke progressives and the crazy Trump people ALL gotta go back to the pasture.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Not only wasn't it put down, but local leaders were able to prevent anyone else from coming in and cleaning it up either.
> What did Trump learned from this you might ask? Well lets just say I can just imagine visions of pro trump municipalities doing the same in his name.
> 
> To me this isn't an either or.  The woke progressives and the crazy Trump people ALL gotta go back to the pasture.


Don't agree with the first part, doesn't make sense.  On JAN 22, Portland will clear it's streets of Antifa? Or Antifa will just melt away, go back to work?

Agree on the second - make a pasture and put them both in it.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 9, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Because of the following below.


No, it was because I don't use Twitter to any real extent, so who they allow or ban has no relevance to me.

I've read about the story on various outlets and frankly it seemed a hack job to me. Either way Hunter wasn't running for office and if this was the most corrupt or horrible thing the Rs could come up with about Biden after 47 years of public service ... then, whatever.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Idk.  I share the negative reflective response when it comes to almost all issues of censorship.
> 
> However I see little downside to restrictions on yelling 'fire' in a crowed theater.  Likewise I see little long term damage to restricting post calling flash mobs to destroy other peoples property. Nor do I see little harm in restricting things like spreading peoples kids cell numbers on the internet so wackos can call and harass them as a means of hurting the parent.
> 
> To me talking about a few common sense restrictions over internet behavior seems somewhat warranted.


Agree speech is not unlimited. Twitters gone way beyond that. With the president, trump never called on his supporters to seize the capitol or engage in violence. The argument is he incited them by falsely claiming the election was “stolen”.  Further, if incitement is the same standard Twitter engaged in a double standard by not censoring several ds (including kamala harris) that egged on the spring rioters.   If violence is the standard, they engaged in double standards with China Iran and their supporters. They further did not censor Antifa accounts in the spring actually calling people to violence

with the hunter biden stuff Twitter was later proven to be wrong so engaged in a fact Checking which was later found to be incorrect and thereby interferes with a democratic election

with respect to the mask/lockdown/vaccine stuff Twitter is now interfering in debate including among credentialed experts

as to the free speech argument, the difference between Twitter and say the gay wedding cake baker is that Twitter claims it is a content neutral platform that does not edit its content and therefore can’t be legally held accountable for the actions of posters. If true they have no business editing content except for the most extreme outlines you’ve given and which should be set out in law governing isps. If not, their immunity should be removed in which case they are free to speak but also bear the liability (like a magazine or newspaper).


----------



## Chelsea dad g09 (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> their immunity should be removed in which case they are free to speak but also bear the liability (like a magazine or newspaper).


 This 100%.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Don't agree with the first part, doesn't make sense.  On JAN 22, Portland will clear it's streets of Antifa? Or Antifa will just melt away, go back to work?
> 
> Agree on the second - make a pasture and put them both in it.


Guess really all I was trying to say was- imagine what Trump was thinking when he realized that fear of civil unrest was a problem democrats and moderates don't have an answer for other then appeasement?


----------



## tenacious (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Agree speech is not unlimited. Twitters gone way beyond that. With the president, trump never called on his supporters to seize the capitol or engage in violence. The argument is he incited them by falsely claiming the election was “stolen”.  Further, if incitement is the same standard Twitter engaged in a double standard by not censoring several ds (including kamala harris) that egged on the spring rioters.   If violence is the standard, they engaged in double standards with China Iran and their supporters. They further did not censor Antifa accounts in the spring actually calling people to violence
> 
> with the hunter biden stuff Twitter was later proven to be wrong so engaged in a fact Checking which was later found to be incorrect and thereby interferes with a democratic election
> 
> ...


Great post. I agree.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Agree speech is not unlimited. Twitters gone way beyond that. With the president, trump never called on his supporters to seize the capitol or engage in violence. The argument is he incited them by falsely claiming the election was “stolen”.  Further, if incitement is the same standard Twitter engaged in a double standard by not censoring several ds (including kamala harris) that egged on the spring rioters.   If violence is the standard, they engaged in double standards with China Iran and their supporters. They further did not censor Antifa accounts in the spring actually calling people to violence
> 
> with the hunter biden stuff Twitter was later proven to be wrong so engaged in a fact Checking which was later found to be incorrect and thereby interferes with a democratic election
> 
> ...


The difference between Twitter and the bigoted baker are that baking a f**king cake is not speech. If they had asked him to bake a specific pro-gay cake, sure that would be speech. But refusing to sell a standard cake right out of their book to someone because they are gay is no different than refusing to sell bbq to someone because they are black. As the history of Ollie’s BBQ made clear many years ago, using religion as a weapon to persecute minorities is illegal. Period. 

If Twitter decided to censor you god people simply for making god statements, that would be a problem for Twitter. But if it does so because you’re an a**hole making a**hole comments, religion is not a valid excuse to prevent Twitter from kicking your s**tbag ass off, just as it isn’t a valid to excuse to be an a**hole for refusing to sell cakes. No wonder you don’t actually practice law and apparently never have. 

Bigger picture, religion is big part of the current problem. These white evangelical punks have this ridiculous sense of entitlement that makes them think they can do whatever they want, and be as big an a**hole as they want, because their god says it’s ok.  It not only justifies the “morality” of being immoral, but also the ridiculous notion that they should not need to face the repercussions that they expect anyone who does not share their fake should. 

God people don’t want to admit to even themselves that this underlies much of their hatred of people who burn down Wendy’s to protest race discrimination, but their vigorous defense of seditionists who tried to tear down democracy. Their Orange Julius/Jesus has convinced them that it is God’s will for him to win re-election, that non-believers are trying to steal it, and it is therefore morally acceptable to try to overthrow democracy and loot the U.S. Capitol. They see a moral imperative spurred by religion to engage in their abhorrent conduct, but they see no moral imperative in opposing bigotry and racism, because they just ignore those parts of their god book.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I suppose they would be the chorus... or the voice of the people as was the trope of Greek drama.
> 
> It's funny, even the Greeks 3000 years ago saw and understood that there could be a major disconnect between the kings, queens and heroes and the chorus / regular people. Watching some of the jokers we got in Washington strut around patting themselves on the back and I'm reminded of how little things have changed.


If you compare who typically serve by party, you will who are the “elites” who are disconnected from regular people and who are not. You’ll see who mock AOC because she was a bartender, you’ll see the difference between the experiences of Obama- Trump or Loeffler-Warnock or Cruz- growing up, you would see how wrong your trope is. The actual ultra-wealthy elites try to minimize the massive difference between the two - which as you suggest should be a huge negative - by claiming that the democrats running against them are “the same” for two reasons. First, because most of them also have an education. This discredits education. Second, because they also take campaign donations from wealthy people. This is bs because it does not at all change that it has no impact in terms of whether they are real people who grew up experiencing what real people experience.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

If you’re one of the magat apologists criticizing Twitter for taking action in response to sedition and an attempted coup led by Orange Julius Wannabe Caesar, here’s his lawyer on Parler. Now go back to the Orwellian idea that defending why abhorrent comments on a privately-owned platform violates free speech, when the reality is that it’s Twitter exercising its 1st Amendment rights, and you arguing against the existence of the 1st Amendment.  I seriously can’t believe people have so perverted the 1st Amendment in theor minds that they’re actually arguing that private citizens should be prohibited from exercising it. Honestly, part of me hopes some magats do what the president’s attorney says. I guess magats don’t care about any amendment that gets in the way of shooting someone.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Agree speech is not unlimited. Twitters gone way beyond that. With the president, trump never called on his supporters to seize the capitol or engage in violence. The argument is he incited them by falsely claiming the election was “stolen”.  Further, if incitement is the same standard Twitter engaged in a double standard by not censoring several ds (including kamala harris) that egged on the spring rioters.   If violence is the standard, they engaged in double standards with China Iran and their supporters. They further did not censor Antifa accounts in the spring actually calling people to violence
> 
> with the hunter biden stuff Twitter was later proven to be wrong so engaged in a fact Checking which was later found to be incorrect and thereby interferes with a democratic election
> 
> ...


At some point, repeating false statements after they have been shown to be false becomes deliberate dishonesty.

Here  is a dose of bitter medicine for you --









						Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought
					

Chris Hayes: “It is entirely possible that there were people in that crowd, looking to apprehend, possibly harm, and possibly murder the leaders of the political class that the President, and people like Mo Brooks, and even to a certain extent Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, have told them have...




					www.msnbc.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Agree speech is not unlimited. Twitters gone way beyond that. With the president, trump never called on his supporters to seize the capitol or engage in violence. The argument is he incited them by falsely claiming the election was “stolen”.  Further, if incitement is the same standard Twitter engaged in a double standard by not censoring several ds (including kamala harris) that egged on the spring rioters.   If violence is the standard, they engaged in double standards with China Iran and their supporters. They further did not censor Antifa accounts in the spring actually calling people to violence
> 
> with the hunter biden stuff Twitter was later proven to be wrong so engaged in a fact Checking which was later found to be incorrect and thereby interferes with a democratic election
> 
> ...


I have no idea if what the tech companies are doing is the right move or not. What I do know is that these decisions they're making aren't being taken lightly. They have incredibly strong legal teams. I think they have a pretty good idea of what they're doing. For Twitter here's a more detailed explanation for suspending Trump:









						Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump
					

Suspension of @realDonaldTrump




					blog.twitter.com
				




I'm definitely conflicted on a lot of this.  I think on one hand I totally get that many of these actions such as impeachment and social media banning will continue to churn the right wing propaganda machine, ultimately riling up the Trump base.  On the other hand, Trump needs to be held accountable.  We simply can't normalize his behavior.  It's definitely a conundrum.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

This is the Bloated Buffoon’s lawyer, who had been pushing the comspiracy theory that the election was fraudulent and who is 0-60 in court telling magats to murder the VP of the US. Yet still, the magats here insist there is no connection between the President’s statements and the insurrection. What dumbs**t apologists and seditionists.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I have no idea if what the tech companies are doing is the right move or not. What I do know is that these decisions they're making aren't being taken lightly. They have incredibly strong legal teams. I think they have a pretty good idea of what they're doing. For Twitter here's a more detailed explanation for suspending Trump:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The legal teams aren’t making the decisions. The people in charge of the censorship (at Twitter some of whom have known d affiliates) tell their bosses we should do x.   The bosses say yeah or nah pitch it to the lawyers. The lawyers don’t say good or not:  they say on the one hand if you do this y can happen, and if you don’t z could happen, but we don’t really know and here are up teen parades of horrible to the contrary. The lawyers aren’t making their decisions...they are trying to avoid making concrete rulings on their own and advise the client of the pros and cons. And not all in house teams are strong. Don’t know about Twitter but many of them are idiots.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The legal teams aren’t making the decisions. The people in charge of the censorship (at Twitter some of whom have known d affiliates) tell their bosses we should do x.   The bosses say yeah or nah pitch it to the lawyers. The lawyers don’t say good or not:  they say on the one hand if you do this y can happen, and if you don’t z could happen, but we don’t really know and here are up teen parades of horrible to the contrary. The lawyers aren’t making their decisions...they are trying to avoid making concrete rulings on their own and advise the client of the pros and cons. And not all in house teams are strong. Don’t know about Twitter but many of them are idiots.


That's not true at all. You actually have no idea how the inner workings of these social media companies work. Legal teams at these companies have way more say than perhaps other institutions you may be familiar with. Trust me on this.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The legal teams aren’t making the decisions. The people in charge of the censorship (at Twitter some of whom have known d affiliates) tell their bosses we should do x.   The bosses say yeah or nah pitch it to the lawyers. The lawyers don’t say good or not:  they say on the one hand if you do this y can happen, and if you don’t z could happen, but we don’t really know and here are up teen parades of horrible to the contrary. The lawyers aren’t making their decisions...they are trying to avoid making concrete rulings on their own and advise the client of the pros and cons. And not all in house teams are strong. Don’t know about Twitter but many of them are idiots.


Now Grace Karen wants to censor the employees of the privately-owned company that she wants to force to allow her Orange Julius to overthrow the government of the US through their company. Seriously, how could someone be this stupid?   That’s right, she’s a magat. 

Oh, and if she thinks lawyers should be making decisions, how does she feel about this one:


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> That's not true at all. You actually have no idea how the inner workings of these social media companies work. Legal teams at these companies have way more say than perhaps other institutions you may be familiar with. Trust me on this.


You are correct. Sue also has no idea how the law works either.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.
> 
> 1. There's no basis for that charge.  Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
> 2. They're probably not serious about it.  If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
> ...


trump will never hold federal office again.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> That's not true at all. You actually have no idea how the inner workings of these social media companies work. Legal teams at these companies have way more say than perhaps other institutions you may be familiar with. Trust me on this.


not true at all. I do speak from personal experience and my younger brother was second in command of a law department at one of the big tech companies until very recent. They off course have a say.  No tech company would ever make a decision without their input.  They don’t make decisions though and unless something is black law illegal no in house lawyer would ever say “you can’t do that”

in house lawyers also aren’t promoted or hired for their smarts (sorry little bro). They are hired for their abilities to play corporate politics (they are minefields and lawyers are generally bad at interpersonal stuff and communication with human beings) who they know and how well they fit into the corporate culture.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> It is a terrible mistake silencing a side you do not agree with. And they have been doing it much more over the past year.
> 
> With these big corporations, there are only a few big platforms that reach the masses. The owners of these platforms have started to take sides. NOT a good thing.


The greatest threat to leftists is an opposing opinion.  That's why we have cancel culture, etc.

Regardless of what side it may fall, being a prisoner of a narrative requires you to be proficient in mental gymnastics and also creates an environment for mob violence like we've seen in Portland, Seattle and DC.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> The greatest threat to leftists is an opposing opinion.  That's why we have cancel culture, etc.
> 
> Regardless of what side it may fall, being a prisoner of a narrative requires you to be proficient in mental gymnastics and also creates an environment for mob violence like we've seen in Portland, Seattle and DC.


When you refer to “cancel culture”, you mean the 1st Amendment and free will, which is the greatest threat to magats. They can’t handle it that people have the right to not buy My Pillows.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> The greatest threat to leftists is an opposing opinion.  That's why we have cancel culture, etc.
> 
> Regardless of what side it may fall, being a prisoner of a narrative requires you to be proficient in mental gymnastics and also creates an environment for mob violence like we've seen in Portland, Seattle and DC.


Overall, cancel culture has gotten out of control. Can't say that applies to the idiots from this week, (good riddance!) but by and large, it can be awful.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> not true at all. I do speak from personal experience and my younger brother was second in command of a law department at one of the big tech companies until very recent. They off course have a say.  No tech company would ever make a decision without their input.  They don’t make decisions though and unless something is black law illegal no in house lawyer would ever say “you can’t do that”
> 
> in house lawyers also aren’t promoted or hired for their smarts (sorry little bro). They are hired for their abilities to play corporate politics (they are minefields and lawyers are generally bad at interpersonal stuff and communication with human beings) who they know and how well they fit into the corporate culture.


It kind of makes you wonder when things went wrong with Grace-Karen to make her cynical and depressed about everything. In house attorneys absolutely are hired for their abilities. I’m guessing Grace-Karen was not hired because of her lack of ability and needed a way to rationalize that in her own mind. I mean the price was right for an unpaid internship...


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

For fucks sake this is out of control, Anti-fa and BLMers attacked a Patriot March in PB and my 17 yo daughter and her friends were just shopping and got stuck in the middle of the melee.  This shit has to stop.  Anyone who minimizes any of this because of the "why" can go to hell or a groundhog day of a Costco Saturday with free samples.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> not true at all. I do speak from personal experience and my younger brother was second in command of a law department at one of the big tech companies until very recent. They off course have a say.  No tech company would ever make a decision without their input.  They don’t make decisions though and unless something is black law illegal no in house lawyer would ever say “you can’t do that”
> 
> in house lawyers also aren’t promoted or hired for their smarts (sorry little bro). They are hired for their abilities to play corporate politics (they are minefields and lawyers are generally bad at interpersonal stuff and communication with human beings) who they know and how well they fit into the corporate culture.


Every comment you make on this exposes you even further. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. How about this, go on linkedin and look at the legal teams for many of these companies in the news and look at their credentials.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

]


NorCalDad said:


> Every comment you make on this exposes you even further. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. How about this, go on linkedin and look at the legal teams for many of these companies in the news and look at their credentials.


Credentials have NOTHING to do with legal ability.  One of the best lawyers and one that I most admire, both for his ability to navigate corporate culture and from ability to think through legal issues, is from a nothing law school in Los Angeles.

I went to one of the best law schools in the country.  Half my classmates were idiots.

Every comment you make on this exposes you even further.  You literally have no idea what you are talking about.  Credentialism has nothing to do with competence.

We see this problem, BTW, with those idiots that are running health policy on the pandemic.  And it's this attitude from the upper middle class ("oh my credential....look at me") that is one of the factors directly responsible for what we are seeing going on with the right and left this days.  You credentials don't mean anything other than you are good at taking tests.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Look this isn't hard.  Every American/Patriot should be pretty unsettled with with what happened on Wednesday.  Slate does an amazing job summarizing the timeline:









						Congress Has All the Impeachment Evidence It Needs
					

The attack on the Capitol didn’t start with Trump’s speech. He’s been fomenting insurrection for weeks.




					slate.com
				




This wasn't just about Wednesday, it's the culmination of everything that happened up to that point. Slate even skipped that key quotes before the election that the only way he could lose the election is if it was rigged. The list is pretty huge. 

Trump and others need to be held accountable for this. I do worry how this is handled though. I think @Grace T. is right here that Wednesday was just the beginning.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Look this isn't hard.  Every American/Patriot should be pretty unsettled with with what happened on Wednesday.  Slate does an amazing job summarizing the timeline:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree he should resign.    If he were a man of honor he would. Impeachment, though, is a tactical mistake.  There's no way at this point to get it done before the inauguration....to even stand a prayer Pelosi would have had to move and finish it last Wednesday.  It relieves Republicans of their Trump problem, will forment more violence, and will take away a huge chunk of attention from Joe Biden's first 100 days.  Further, Trump never said go attack the Capitol...he specifically told his supporters to go home...that would be a clear and easy line which all Americans could get behind....all the Slate points are grey and leave it up to argument.  It sets up a horrible precedent....from now on what we will see is whenever the House is in the hands of the other party, that party will move to impeach...and both Joe Biden (for Huntergate) and Kamala Harris  (for her own support of the Antifa violence) already have openings (note it doesn't even need to specifically wait to 2022....with the economy in the mess that it is in all it takes is a handful of open seats and we are potentially there since every seat swings 2 votes).  Finally, today there's already been a series of partisan violence and the night is still very young....with the tech company moves things are escalating.  What we need now is a calming of the partisanship and unity, not further poking of the bear.  Does he deserve impeachment? Maybe (I'm a very strict constructionalist)....but it's not a good idea.

Besides, if you knife Caesar the only thing you do is give Anthony room for the speech.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> For fucks sake this is out of control, Anti-fa and BLMers attacked a Patriot March in PB and my 17 yo daughter and her friends were just shopping and got stuck in the middle of the melee.  This shit has to stop.  Anyone who minimizes any of this because of the "why" can go to hell or a groundhog day of a Costco Saturday with free samples.


So sorry. I hope she and her friends are ok! There is nothing ok about that at all.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

the absolute blatant double standards.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346957786517671937


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> ]
> 
> 
> Credentials have NOTHING to do with legal ability.  One of the best lawyers and one that I most admire, both for his ability to navigate corporate culture and from ability to think through legal issues, is from a nothing law school in Los Angeles.
> ...


You do realize credentials include work experience, right?

I've been in tech for a really long time (25+ years). I've seen things. While I agree there is generally a corporate legal team at all of these companies that handles standard legal issues, many also have a legal arm that is directly responsible for things like we've seen over the last few days. For example do you understand how many legal requests these companies get from government entities? Do you think the people handling those requests are the same lawyers handling internal issues/contracts/etc? For example, check out Twitter's transparency report (looks like it hasn't been updated recently, but still makes my point):









						Twitter Transparency Center
					

The Twitter Transparency Center covers a broad array of transparency efforts including sections dedicated to: information requests, removal requests, copyright notices, trademark notices, email security, Twitter Rules enforcement, platform manipulation, and state-backed information operations.




					transparency.twitter.com
				




BTW -- as an aside, I think the above is going to hammer Parler. Hopefully they can find more funding outside of the Mercer family. Maybe Peter Thiel will jump in, but I suspect most VCs will stay away. 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt.  There are companies in the valley that are not in the same space as the companies in question.  So, for example, Oracle may not need to have the same legal team structure as say Facebook.  They have different requirements.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the absolute blatant double standards.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346957786517671937


This was and still is, so cringe-worthy.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the absolute blatant double standards.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346957786517671937


She should absolutely be booted. Can't stand her anyway.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I agree he should resign.    If he were a man of honor he would. Impeachment, though, is a tactical mistake.  There's no way at this point to get it done before the inauguration....to even stand a prayer Pelosi would have had to move and finish it last Wednesday.  It relieves Republicans of their Trump problem, will forment more violence, and will take away a huge chunk of attention from Joe Biden's first 100 days.  Further, Trump never said go attack the Capitol...he specifically told his supporters to go home...that would be a clear and easy line which all Americans could get behind....all the Slate points are grey and leave it up to argument.  It sets up a horrible precedent....from now on what we will see is whenever the House is in the hands of the other party, that party will move to impeach...and both Joe Biden (for Huntergate) and Kamala Harris  (for her own support of the Antifa violence) already have openings (note it doesn't even need to specifically wait to 2022....with the economy in the mess that it is in all it takes is a handful of open seats and we are potentially there since every seat swings 2 votes).  Finally, today there's already been a series of partisan violence and the night is still very young....with the tech company moves things are escalating.  What we need now is a calming of the partisanship and unity, not further poking of the bear.  Does he deserve impeachment? Maybe (I'm a very strict constructionalist)....but it's not a good idea.
> 
> Besides, if you knife Caesar the only thing you do is give Anthony room for the speech.


It can be done in a day if they are serious about it,.  There is little need to present evidence -- all the jurors are witnesses.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> You do realize credentials include work experience, right?
> 
> I've been in tech for a really long time (25+ years). I've seen things. While I agree there is generally a corporate legal team at all of these companies that handles standard legal issues, many also have a legal arm that is directly responsible for things like we've seen over the last few days. For example do you understand how many legal requests these companies get from government entities? Do you think the people handling those requests are the same lawyers handling internal issues/contracts/etc? For example, check out Twitter's transparency report (looks like it hasn't been updated recently, but still makes my point):
> 
> ...


It's doubly so for those people.  Again, legal acumen is not why GCs, government relations people, or compliance attorneys are hired.  They are hired for their abilities to influence, who they known, and their abilities to navigate both corporate and political culture (or in the GC case the ability to manage).  They aren't the best when it comes to legal analysis.  They hire outside law firms for that.  And I tell you this from personal experience...the first 10 years of my career, 1/3 of my portfolio was government relations and issues...I hated doing it, I wasn't good at it, and most of the work required nothing by way of legal analysis.  And no GC worth their salt would ever tell the head of their company "no you can't do it" unless it was black letter illegal....they'd lay out the pros and cons, and the risks and benefits of each option....otherwise there wouldn't be the Enrons of the world (or for that matter, Facebooks, which a certain film so crisply illustrated).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> It can be done in a day if they are serious about it,.  There is little need to present evidence -- all the jurors are witnesses.


a. They aren't (otherwise Pelosi would have moved it on Wednesday before the Senate headed out of town....1 day before the inauguration), b. Trump has the right to counsel and to call witnesses (they just can't vote on it).


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> So sorry. I hope she and her friends are ok! There is nothing ok about that at all.


Thank you.  They made it out OK.  All the stores were evacuated.  Still a bunch of copters flying around but the sirens have settled down.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

The Rs are tearing themselves apart.....guess what?....it's why they lost Arizona....the McCain voters would have been enough.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347981490949419010


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> For fucks sake this is out of control, Anti-fa and BLMers attacked a Patriot March in PB and my 17 yo daughter and her friends were just shopping and got stuck in the middle of the melee.  This shit has to stop.  Anyone who minimizes any of this because of the "why" can go to hell or a groundhog day of a Costco Saturday with free samples.


So sorry to hear this.  It's awful.  There's been a lot of this violence today and it's not even nightfall.  I've repeatedly warned everyone who'd listen that it's going to get a lot worse.  More and more those of us not on the extremes will get caught in it (particularly as lockdowns are lifted and people begin to circulate again).  For those that said, it's all about Trump: Biden won...Trump's been cowed....it's still happening and will continue to get worse at least in the immediate term.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> She should absolutely be booted. Can't stand her anyway.


As reprehensible as that is, I support her right to do it.  I'd rather expose the cockroaches to the light then let them hide in the dark.

But yes the double standard is obvious and pervasive.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's doubly so for those people.  Again, legal acumen is not why GCs, government relations people, or compliance attorneys are hired.  They are hired for their abilities to influence, who they known, and their abilities to navigate both corporate and political culture (or in the GC case the ability to manage).  They aren't the best when it comes to legal analysis.  They hire outside law firms for that.  And I tell you this from personal experience...the first 10 years of my career, 1/3 of my portfolio was government relations and issues...I hated doing it, I wasn't good at it, and most of the work required nothing by way of legal analysis.  And no GC worth their salt would ever tell the head of their company "no you can't do it" unless it was black letter illegal....they'd lay out the pros and cons, and the risks and benefits of each option....otherwise there wouldn't be the Enrons of the world (or for that matter, Facebooks, which a certain film so crisply illustrated).


I think I would respect your opinion more here if you had more direct experience in the valley.

Anyway, another thing we can agree to disagree on.

FWIW, here's some info on Twitter's legal council:









						Twitter Hires Former FBI General Counsel Amid Trump Fight (1)
					

Twitter Inc. has brought on former FBI general counsel James Baker to its growing legal department as the company remains locked in a highly public battle with President Donald Trump over guidelines on its popular social media platform.




					news.bloomberglaw.com
				




(I'm sure this will elicit partisan concerns)


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> a. They aren't (otherwise Pelosi would have moved it on Wednesday before the Senate headed out of town....1 day before the inauguration), b. Trump has the right to counsel and to call witnesses (they just can't vote on it).


One day.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> One day.


Only if they were to disregard their own policies and procedures and the rights of the accused. Would guarantee you if they did that our now hot low grade civil war would become at least a moderate one as a result.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Either way Hunter wasn't running for office and *if this was the most corrupt or horrible thing the Rs could come up with about Biden after 47 years of public service ... then, whatever.*


Def a good point.  

You can look at it from another perspective though.  Imagine having a high ranking official in the US government under the subtle influence of a foreign entity that is in 100% opposition to US interest all over the world.  That foreign entity has  the capacity to wage this effort across the full spectrum.  Russia isn't capable of that, not even close and not in a position to really ever do it.  China has the capacity, the capability, the discipline, and the motivation to do it.  And are doing it, right now and has been for a long time.  

Trump - Russia is laughable at best (from a non political aspect).  Makes for great political theater though.  China is different, we are intertwined differently with them and need them just as much as they need us.  The field has never been level.  You can argue whether or not the field became more level over the last 4 years.  What really can't be argued is that China is a persistent soft and hard threat to US interests, foreign and domestic.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I think I would respect your opinion more here if you had more direct experience in the valley.
> 
> Anyway, another thing we can agree to disagree on.
> 
> ...


my younger brother as I said was no 2 at a valley tech dept doing exactly the regulatory work you describe. But fair: agree to disagree. The baker Hire isn’t about legal acumen...considerable talents are brought to the table but that’s not why a govt attorney is brought in house.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Only if they were to disregard their own policies and procedures and the rights of the accused. Would guarantee you if they did that our now hot low grade civil war would become at least a moderate one as a result.


There is no appeal, but Chief Justice Roberts will be presiding, so his rulings and behavior will be crucial.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> There is no appeal, but Chief Justice Roberts will be presiding, so his rulings and behavior will be crucial.


Besides which, impeachment is not necessary -- 14th Amendment, Section 3 --

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> There is no appeal, but Chief Justice Roberts will be presiding, so his rulings and behavior will be crucial.


rhenquist set the precedent that the chair is beholden to the majority of the senate. Also won’t do anything to settle the trumpkins...they view Robert’s as a traitor and I guarantee you were they to try and remove trump in 1 day there will be violence. Trump with nothing left to lose could even be in front of it. 

im not an expert on the 14th but iirc the case law on this is very circumspect but there is also the fact that unlike impeachment (which is a political question) the 14th is subject to judicial review.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

For further study (espola notes version -- the Senate can conduct the trial any way they want to)









						Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993)
					

Nixon v. United States: The political question doctrine is triggered when the text of the Constitution has shown that an issue lies outside the scope of the courts, or there is no judicial standard for resolving the issue.




					supreme.justia.com


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> rhenquist set the precedent that the chair is beholden to the majority of the senate. Also won’t do anything to settle the trumpkins...they view Robert’s as a traitor and I guarantee you were they to try and remove trump in 1 day there will be violence. Trump with nothing left to lose could even be in front of it.
> 
> im not an expert on the 14th but iirc the case law on this is very circumspect but there is also the fact that unlike impeachment (which is a political question) the 14th is subject to judicial review.


You appear to be saying that Congress should do nothing because they will just make it worse.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> You appear to be saying that Congress should do nothing because they will just make it worse.


That’s exactly what I’m saying (and not just worse but much nightmarish worst) and it would also be a tactical mistake away from important work the Biden admin needs to do. What we need now is the lowering of the temperature and statesmanship


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That’s exactly what I’m saying (and not just worse but much nightmarish worst) and it would also be a tactical mistake away from important work the Biden admin needs to do. What we need now is the lowering of the temperature and statesmanship


We need arrests and trials.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> We need arrests and trials.


Of those that stormed the Capitol absolutely.

But the left seems to want to take it further.  If you agree with them, then you just want a civil war if it means your side could win...you should just say it....you hate the right so much you want to get it over and done with.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Of those that stormed the Capitol absolutely.
> 
> But the left seems to want to take it further.  If you agree with them, then you just want a civil war if it means your side could win...you should just say it....you hate the right so much you want to get it over and done with.


You say "left" and "right" as if they were football teams.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

I think I called this earlier:









						Amazon employees call for company to cut ties with Parler after deadly U.S. Capitol riot
					

"We cannot be complicit in more bloodshed and violent attacks on our democracy," the employee advocacy group wrote in a tweet.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> You say "left" and "right" as if they were football teams.


Those of you that are on the activist left and right seem to treat them as such (or worse religions)



NorCalDad said:


> I think I called this earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Parler goes it will be such an escalation of nuclear proportions, but you may very well be rightl.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Those of you that are on the activist left and right seem to treat them as such (or worse religions)
> 
> 
> 
> If Parler goes it will be such an escalation of nuclear proportions, but you may very well be rightl.


Oh lord. Someone seriously overestimates magats when the federal government is finally prepared to hold them accountable and also shoot them for engaging in insurrections.  Or have all the magats here been lying to us all along that only black people get uppity and cause property damage when they don’t get what they want?

I can’t wait until “when the looting starts the shooting starts.”


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Those of you that are on the activist left and right seem to treat them as such (or worse religions)
> 
> 
> 
> If Parler goes it will be such an escalation of nuclear proportions, but you may very well be rightl.


I suspect Parler will abide by the moderation demands -- effectively making it useless to the people who are going there.  Which in turn will trigger the MAGA/Qanon folks.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Welp I was wrong:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348089793213837319
Well I mean originally I was right.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the absolute blatant double standards.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346957786517671937


Kathy Griffin is an American hero.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Welp I was wrong:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348089793213837319
> Well I mean originally I was right.


@Grace T. I guess we don't need to check in 2 years from now  

No way they're up anytime soon.  It's my understanding they rely on many of the proprietary AWS services.  Doable to migrate, but the Mercer Family is going to have to fork out more cash.  Plus, no US hosting company will take them on -- even bare metal colocation facilities won't take them.  Likely they will go to Russia and use a provider there.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Welp I was wrong:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348089793213837319
> Well I mean originally I was right.


Actually it was Karen Grace who was wrong. How stupid do you need to be to not understand what the free market was going to do to Parler? Yet here she is still claiming she knows about the tech industry. Marmalade-a-lago is toast. Parler is toast. Dominion will ruin the lives of the Sid the “Not a Kraken” Squid and everyone else who spouted lies about them. And now our FBI will actually squash these s**tbag magats like they deserve. We’re about to see the full weight of the 1st Amendment, the free market, and American criminal justice come down on these cockroaches.

This is going to be so much fun. Non-stop.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Guess really all I was trying to say was- imagine what Trump was thinking when he realized that fear of civil unrest was a problem democrats and moderates don't have an answer for other then appeasement?


It is certainly an unsettling idea, especially for businesses and residents of places like portland.  I'm curious as to what happens in those places after 20 JAN.  If it continues, then your theory pans out, if it stops, then makes you wonder.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> @Grace T. I guess we don't need to check in 2 years from now
> 
> No way they're up anytime soon.  It's my understanding they rely on many of the proprietary AWS services.  Doable to migrate, but the Mercer Family is going to have to fork out more cash.  Plus, no US hosting company will take them on -- even bare metal colocation facilities won't take them.  Likely they will go to Russia and use a provider there.


Twitter now has a target on its back with all Trump supporters,, libertarians, and many establishment Rs.  They may be protected by Biden and the Ds but the knives will be out for them now by the Rs.  Eventually since the wheel always turns they will pay a heavy price.









						Twitter Is The Enemy Of The American People
					

Twitter is free to do as it pleases. And I am free to call them what they are: a shill for communist China that seeks the destruction of America.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Twitter now has a target on its back with all Trump supporters,, libertarians, and many establishment Rs.  They may be protected by Biden and the Ds but the knives will be out for them now by the Rs.  Eventually since the wheel always turns they will pay a heavy price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG. I think you mean Twitter, Apple, Google, and Amazon, and that’s just today. Seriously, you are mind boggling stupid to still fail to understand how the winds of justice are blowing. It’s over. The only place left for magats is here, and I’ve got the trumpanzees covered.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> We need arrests and trials.


It's easier to let Cyrus Vance and the State of New York handle trump after 20 JAN.  Less messy for Congress, and more damning for Trump and co.

Anything brought forward by Congress will be seen as sour grapes (some justifiable) and will do not favor the UNITY couple's agenda.  The temperature needs to be lowered.  It should have been lowered years ago but Trump and cronies lacked vision and strategy.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 9, 2021)

Twitter got Trump in office- he circumvented all the normal political means of communication to throw out gibberish tweets. 

If he was the business tycoon he claims to be, he could have created his very own "Twitter" and he'd still be talking shit and no silenced.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Twitter now has a target on its back with all Trump supporters,, libertarians, and many establishment Rs.  They may be protected by Biden and the Ds but the knives will be out for them now by the Rs.  Eventually since the wheel always turns they will pay a heavy price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many on the left would like to see more regulation on big tech companies as well. They're getting it from all angles:









						Here’s how we can break up Big Tech
					

By Elizabeth Warren




					medium.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Many on the left would like to see more regulation on big tech companies as well. They're getting it from all angles:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She may be one of the biggest hypocrites in Congress.  Out of the top 10 donors for her 2020 campaign, 4 were big tech (Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft).  Most likely employees but we know the pay scale of certain employees.  

She will pander until she can't pander any more.  She's just like most of congress.  Term limits come to mind.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> It's easier to let Cyrus Vance and the State of New York handle trump after 20 JAN.  Less messy for Congress, and more damning for Trump and co.
> 
> Anything brought forward by Congress will be seen as sour grapes (some justifiable) and will do not favor the UNITY couple's agenda.  The temperature needs to be lowered.  It should have been lowered years ago but Trump and cronies lacked vision and strategy.


Belts and suspenders. Impeachment now had a fair amount of ‘publican support, which means it does not look at all like sour grapes. Also helps weed out the remaining magats in Congress. Many of them are not exactly secure and are rightfully more afraid of what Lincoln Project will do than the magats. Just ask Q Losers Loeffler and Perdue.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> OMG. I’ve got the* trumpanzees *covered.


Being a person of your stature, I'm surprised that you throw this word around so flippantly.  I'm thinking there are plenty of Trump followers that wouldn't want be referred to as chimp or an ape.  There are likely just as many trump haters that are uncomfortable with this term.  I know every time I look at it, it's what comes to mind.  I don't want to throw the R word around but ya know what I mean.  It may be time to erase this word from your lexicon and replace it with a less offensive word that still gets your point across - try to do some adulting.  I know how you feel about Trump and Trump supporters but help a brotha out.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> She may be one of the biggest hypocrites in Congress.  Out of the top 10 donors for her 2020 campaign, 4 were big tech (Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft).  Most likely employees but we know the pay scale of certain employees.
> 
> She will pander until she can't pander any more.  She's just like most of congress.  Term limits come to mind.


She lost a lot of progressives when she signed on with that PAC. Bernie crowd was pissed.

My only point is big tech is getting hammered from all sides. This isn't a left vs right.  It's going to dramatically impact a segment of tech in the valley.  Hard to see if the result will be good or bad.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Belts and suspenders. Impeachment now had a fair amount of ‘publican support, which means it does not look at all like sour grapes. Also helps weed out the remaining magats in Congress. Many of them are not exactly secure and are rightfully more afraid of what Lincoln Project will do than the magats. Just ask Q Losers Loeffler and Perdue.


You do not make any type of sense at all. It's like you are stuck in March 2020. 

Explain to me exactly what the Lincoln Project is going to do except take your money and make short videos.  They need to audition for Saturday Night Live.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Being a person of your stature, I'm surprised that you throw this word around so flippantly.  I'm thinking there are plenty of Trump followers that wouldn't want be referred to as chimp or an ape.  There are likely just as many trump haters that are uncomfortable with this term.  I know every time I look at it, it's what comes to mind.  I don't want to throw the R word around but ya know what I mean.  It may be time to erase this word from your lexicon and replace it with a less offensive word that still gets your point across - try to do some adulting.  I know how you feel about Trump and Trump supporters but help a brotha out.


Nope. My president told me for four years it’s ok to behave this way.  Magats supported it, thought it was so fun and awesome to treat people like s**t and made up fun names for everyone with whom they disagreed.  They thought it was so great that they voted for him again. Are you saying these snowflakes can’t take it?

When y’all repent and apologize, I’ll stop.  So never, in other words.


----------



## notintheface (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the absolute blatant double standards.


Just FYI you're trying to both-sides-ism an effigy with an event where five people died.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Just FYI you're trying to both-sides-ism an effigy with an event where five people died.


I think @Grace T. is making the point that the tweet is inciting violence.  I think it's a gross tweet and completely uncalled for.  I understand the frustration towards Trump and want him to be held accountable, but her tweet is completely useless.  I thought she posted this in the past and got hammered for it, didn't she?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Nope. My president told me for four years it’s ok to behave this way.  Magats supported it, thought it was so fun and awesome to treat people like s**t and made up fun names for everyone with whom they disagreed.  They thought it was so great that they voted for him again. Are you saying these snowflakes can’t take it?
> 
> When y’all repent and apologize, I’ll stop.  So never, in other words.
> 
> ...


So you are ok calling a black supporter of trump a trumpanzee? I think you are really a 12 year old getting guidance from your parent.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I think @Grace T. is making the point that the tweet is inciting violence.  I think it's a gross tweet and completely uncalled for.  I understand the frustration towards Trump and want him to be held accountable, but her tweet is completely useless.  I thought she posted this in the past and got hammered for it, didn't she?


Karen Grace ignores that Kathy Griffin knows neither she nor anyone who sees it is going to engage in violence as a result of her s**ty joke, while The Mango Magat in Chief knows exactly what his actions will cause to happen. Was Griffin’s tweet ill-advised, sure. Was it going to conceivably cause a mob of domestic terrorists to overrun the WH?  No. Should the President of the US be held to a higher standard than a second rate comedian? Not according to Karen Grace. Anyone who claims Kathy Griffin’s stupid behavior justifies Mr. Shits Orange Into His Depends Just Like His Face’s seditious behavior, you know that person’s an idiot. Seriously, she’s claiming sedition is acceptable because Kathy Griffin is a terrible comedian?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> So you are ok calling a black supporter of trump a trumpanzee? I think you are really a 12 year old getting guidance from your parent.


The Mango Manchurian Candidate did it first.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> The Mango Manchurian Candidate did it first.


I'm talking about you, not him.  But never mind, you've proven my point.  Good luck adulting..


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Just FYI you're trying to both-sides-ism an effigy with an event where five people died.


its an example of twitters double standard on incitement.  The Antifa calls for rioting are another. The Russia gate/hunter gate is the double standard on political conspiracies. If they are going to ban lockdown/vaccine/mask posts for being antiscience they need to ban homeopathy and possibly even chiropractics. If false speech is the standard they better get cracking because Twitter is a cesspool of lies and innuendo. 

as to bothsideism, the violence at the capitol is inexcusable. From the evidence being presented it looks like some may even be guilty of treason as evidence is surfacing among some of their intent to overthrow the us government. Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government and more than 5 people have died in the left right violence they’ve participated in since April.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I'm talking about you, not him.  But never mind, you've proven my point.  Good luck adulting..


You have no sense of humor. That was a solid joke. Way better than anything Kathy Griffin’s got.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> If he was the business tycoon he claims to be, he could have created his very own "Twitter" and he'd still be talking shit and no silenced.


Be careful what you ask for .


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> its an example of twitters double standard on incitement.  The Antifa calls for rioting are another. The Russia gate/hunter gate is the double standard on political conspiracies. If they are going to ban lockdown/vaccine/mask posts for being antiscience they need to ban homeopathy and possibly even chiropractics. If false speech is the standard they better get cracking because Twitter is a cesspool of lies and innuendo.
> 
> as to bothsideism, the violence at the capitol is inexcusable. From the evidence being presented it looks like some may even be guilty of treason as evidence is surfacing among some of their intent to overthrow the us government. Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government and more than 5 people have died in the left right violence they’ve participated in since April.


Somebody just went face first down the imaginary slippery slope.

Her anger and hatred of companies for exercising their 1st Amendment is pretty nutty. If she’s so bothered, after she’s done donating to Frumpy Trumpy’s slush, uh, legal fund, she should go halves with him on his proposed social media platform. Sounds like a sure winner given the Bronze Baboon’s business acumen.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You have no sense of humor. That was a solid joke. Way better than anything Kathy Griffin’s got.


That's a really low bar, I'm not sure I'd be patting my self on the back for that one.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> That's a really low bar, I'm not sure I'd be patting my self on the back for that one.


You raise a good point, but still a solid joke. At least a B+.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 9903


Even I am jealous of that world class trolling.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> its an example of twitters double standard on incitement.  The Antifa calls for rioting are another. The Russia gate/hunter gate is the double standard on political conspiracies. If they are going to ban lockdown/vaccine/mask posts for being antiscience they need to ban homeopathy and possibly even chiropractics. If false speech is the standard they better get cracking because Twitter is a cesspool of lies and innuendo.
> 
> as to bothsideism, the violence at the capitol is inexcusable. From the evidence being presented it looks like some may even be guilty of treason as evidence is surfacing among some of their intent to overthrow the us government. Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government and more than 5 people have died in the left right violence they’ve participated in since April.


Antifa called for the violent overthrow of the US government?  I must have missed that.  Do you have a credible source for that statement?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> Antifa called for the violent overthrow of the US government?  I must have missed that.  Do you have a credible source for that statement?


No. Costco and all the grocery stores kicked Karen Grace out, so this is the only place she has left.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> Antifa called for the violent overthrow of the US government?  I must have missed that.  Do you have a credible source for that statement?


im not going down the dark web to pull that research for you. If you are interested read their books or follow their Twitter. Andy ngos work is pretty good on the subject to. One of the pillars of their philosophy is anarchy (one of the flags in their logo) the other is communism (the other flag in their logo). Not saying all Antifa is dedicated to violent revolution but many of them are.  This is pretty self evident stuff and if you are being deliberately opaque then it’s clear where your sympathies lie.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> its an example of twitters double standard on incitement.  The Antifa calls for rioting are another. The Russia gate/hunter gate is the double standard on political conspiracies. If they are going to ban lockdown/vaccine/mask posts for being antiscience they need to ban homeopathy and possibly even chiropractics. If false speech is the standard they better get cracking because Twitter is a cesspool of lies and innuendo.
> 
> as to bothsideism, the violence at the capitol is inexcusable. From the evidence being presented it looks like some may even be guilty of treason as evidence is surfacing among some of their intent to overthrow the us government. Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government and more than 5 people have died in the left right violence they’ve participated in since April.


The thing I can't shake though is imagine what would've happened if the mob at the capitol managed to reach our senators. I have zero doubts there would've been some kind of hostage situation and potentially significant human death toll. I really can't imagine what those folks were going through.  They surely were fearing for their lives.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You raise a good point, but still a solid joke. At least a B+.


I'll give you 1/2 an originality point for using a color other than orange. 

I know you think you're performing a valuable public service by pointing out the racists on this board, but have you thought about doing something substantive to help minorities?  I know a lot of great organizations if you need some suggestions.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> The thing I can't shake though is imagine what would've happened if the mob at the capitol managed to reach our senators. I have zero doubts there would've been some kind of hostage situation and potentially significant human death toll. I really can't imagine what those folks were going through.  They surely were fearing for their lives.


it’s becoming a professional hazard.  For republicans remember they’ve been targeted and shot at en mass already. There’s also gabby Gifford.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> im not going down the dark web to pull that research for you. If you are interested read their books or follow their Twitter. Andy ngos work is pretty good on the subject to. One of the pillars of their philosophy is anarchy (one of the flags in their logo) the other is communism (the other flag in their logo). Not saying all Antifa is dedicated to violent revolution but many of them are.  This is pretty self evident stuff and if you are being deliberately opaque then it’s clear where your sympathies lie.


It would have been cleaner if you simply admitted you were wrong rather than just cluelessly demonstrating it.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> It would have been cleaner if you simply admitted you were wrong rather than just cluelessly demonstrating it.


nonsense


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> The thing I can't shake though is imagine what would've happened if the mob at the capitol managed to reach our senators. I have zero doubts there would've been some kind of hostage situation and potentially significant human death toll. I really can't imagine what those folks were going through.  They surely were fearing for their lives.


I have gone down the Twitter rabbit hole alot more than is probably healthy for my sanity since all this happened. There are numerous videos of these people (people is being kind,) saying they want to find Pence to "hang" him, and kill Pelosi. 

For whatever reason, this group concerns me more than any set of protestors thus far.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

watfly said:


> I'll give you 1/2 an originality point for using a color other than orange.
> 
> I know you think you're performing a valuable public service by pointing out the racists on this board, but have you thought about doing something substantive to help minorities?  I know a lot of great organizations if you need some suggestions.


Thanks I’m good. Ridding the SoCal youth soccer community of bigots and seditionists is not my only public service.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> nonsense


Hey Karen Grace, do you think a trumpanzee boycott of Amazon because it shut down Parler will hurt Bezos’ bottom line?  Amazon doesn’t sell AR-15s, smokes, or meth, so I’m thinking no.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> For whatever reason, this group concerns me more than any set of protestors thus far.


here’s the counter:

1. Antifa is smarter. Their organization (which they manage to keep diffuse), tactics, recruitment is just better. An antifa organizer outclasses these nut bags any day of the week while high.

2. the ones that did it are idiots.  A more serious competent group of terrorist would have gone in guns blazing and wouldn’t have surrendered when the police ordered them to withdraw.  For those that were really planning a coup there hasn’t been a more poorly organized attempt since the beer hall putsch.  The fact they were able to get in there speaks to the level of incompetence of capitol security more than the master mindset of there idiots and weekend camouflage warriors.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I have gone down the Twitter rabbit hole alot more than is probably healthy for my sanity since all this happened. There are numerous videos of these people (people is being kind,) saying they want to find Pence to "hang" him, and kill Pelosi.
> 
> For whatever reason, this group concerns me more than any set of protestors thus far.


That's precisely my reaction. One of the dudes had zip tie handcuffs. Mix that all in with the pipe bombs and other explosives, things could've been a ton worse. It's like 40k Timothy McVeighs. Still blows my mind that the entirety of the GOP doesn't separate themselves from these people.


----------



## watfly (Jan 9, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Thanks I’m good. Ridding the SoCal youth soccer community of bigots and seditionists is not my only public service.


Do tell.  Your not one to normally hold back.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> nonsense


You had no source and suggested I should do your work for you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> You had no source and suggested I should do your work for you.


I told you to read ngos book on the subject


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> here’s the counter:
> 
> 1. Antifa is smarter. Their organization (which they manage to keep diffuse), tactics, recruitment is just better. An antifa organizer outclasses these nut bags any day of the week while high.
> 
> 2. the ones that did it are idiots.  A more serious competent group of terrorist would have gone in guns blazing and wouldn’t have surrendered when the police ordered them to withdraw.  For those that were really planning a coup there hasn’t been a more poorly organized attempt since the beer hall putsch.  The fact they were able to get in there speaks to the level of incompetence of capitol security more than the master mindset of there idiots and weekend camouflage warriors.


I mean it's not like they needed to be seal team six to get in there. Just bum rushing it got them in there. 

Antifa (if it's actually a "group") just doesn't have the numbers. You have millions of these people following trump. 

I absolutely fear these crazy Trumpists more than anyone related to antifa.  I mean christ, they were convinced to take over the capitol.  That's friggin nuts.  I mean throw in the fact that many of them were white nationalists/supremacists/neo-nazis.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> here’s the counter:
> 
> 1. Antifa is smarter. Their organization (which they manage to keep diffuse), tactics, recruitment is just better. An antifa organizer outclasses these nut bags any day of the week while high.
> 
> 2. the ones that did it are idiots.  A more serious competent group of terrorist would have gone in guns blazing and wouldn’t have surrendered when the police ordered them to withdraw.  For those that were really planning a coup there hasn’t been a more poorly organized attempt since the beer hall putsch.  The fact they were able to get in there speaks to the level of incompetence of capitol security more than the master mindset of there idiots and weekend camouflage warriors.


What about Cruz and Hawley and Rudy?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean it's not like they needed to be seal team six to get in there. Just bum rushing it got them in there.
> 
> Antifa (if it's actually a "group") just doesn't have the numbers. You have millions of these people following trump.
> 
> I absolutely fear these crazy Trumpists more than anyone related to antifa.  I mean christ, they were convinced to take over the capitol.  That's friggin nuts.  I mean throw in the fact that many of them were white nationalists/supremacists/neo-nazis.


Just under half the country voted for trunk. Holding them all to the same standard?  Gonna hold every democrat who supported the peaceful blm marches for Antifa terrorism?  If you really feel this way maybe you should start advocating for a peaceful separation


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I told you to read ngos book on the subject


I asked for a credible source.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> I asked for a credible source.


And there are your true colors.  Nice to know where you stand...one of the bad guys


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> And there are your true colors.  Nice to know where you stand...one of the bad guys


My true colors are red, white, and blue (with a touch of green).  

What does "one of the bad guys" mean?  Is it because I can see through Proud-Boy-wannabe Ngo's BS?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> What about Cruz and Hawley and Rudy?


neither Cruz nor Hawley advocated for the violent overthrow Of the us government, did not condone the takeover, and when they came didn’t join them to overthrow the government.I’mlong time acquaintance of Ted but have never been a fan. Your statement is bulls—-

as Rudy his legal results speak for themselves


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> My true colors are red, white, and blue (with a touch of green).
> 
> What does "one of the bad guys" mean?  Is it because I can see through Proud-Boy-wannabe Ngo's BS?


from the sound of it your colors are red and black. At least you are willing to add a splash every once in a while. So transparent


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> im not going down the dark web to pull that research for you. If you are interested read their books or follow their Twitter. Andy ngos work is pretty good on the subject to. One of the pillars of their philosophy is anarchy (one of the flags in their logo) the other is communism (the other flag in their logo). Not saying all Antifa is dedicated to violent revolution but many of them are.  This is pretty self evident stuff and if you are being deliberately opaque then it’s clear where your sympathies lie.


I had to look up Andy Ngo -- his name was super familiar to me.  Not diverge from this discussion, but Andy is a nutjob.  Pretty sure I'd take everything he says/writes with a grain of salt.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Just under half the country voted for trunk. Holding them all to the same standard?  Gonna hold every democrat who supported the peaceful blm marches for Antifa terrorism?  If you really feel this way maybe you should start advocating for a peaceful separation


Not sure I follow.  Are you asking if I am putting everyone that voted for Trump in the crazy category?  I never sad that.  The point I was trying to make was that the crazy trumpists outnumber antifa by a mile.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I had to look up Andy Ngo -- his name was super familiar to me.  Not diverge from this discussion, but Andy is a nutjob.  Pretty sure I'd take everything he says/writes with a grain of salt.


I’d say the same thing about Chris cuomo

his reporting though is pretty fair. He’s interested in domestic terror groups generally Contrary to espolas remarks, he’s reported on the proud boy violence and most recently has been debunking the capitol takeover was really Antifa (there were a couple of Antifa agitators mixed in there that he’s identified but it’s just a mere handful...this was entirely a right wing led thing)


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Not sure I follow.  Are you asking if I am putting everyone that voted for Trump in the crazy category?  I never sad that.  The point I was trying to make was that the crazy trumpists outnumber antifa by a mile.


if the standard is crazy rightist v crazy leftist numbers, beyond Antifa or the capitol takeover, then no. There’s plenty crazy to go around

if the standard is whether Antifa has > numbers than those that invaded the capitol then also no (Antifa is global)

if you are lumping in everyone at the capitol protest (including those that did not go into the capitol or participate in violence) then also no...you’d have to count the “mostly peaceful” blm supporters on the other side

your bias is showing


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’d say the same thing about Chris cuomo
> 
> his reporting though is pretty fair. He’s interested in domestic terror groups generally Contrary to espolas remarks, he’s reported on the proud boy violence and most recently has been debunking the capitol takeover was really Antifa (there were a couple of Antifa agitators mixed in there that he’s identified but it’s just a mere handful...this was entirely a right wing led thing)


And I'd say the same about Don Lemon, Joe Scarborough, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, etc.  The right side of your political ideology rears its head on these forums more than maybe you think.  Maybe you're farther from the center than you think.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> if the standard is crazy rightist v crazy leftist numbers, beyond Antifa or the capitol takeover, then no. There’s plenty crazy to go around
> 
> if the standard is whether Antifa has > numbers than those that invaded the capitol then also no (Antifa is global)
> 
> ...


I'm talking the number of trumpers that would go to war for him.  What do you think that percentage is?  Anecdotally I think the trumpers win hands down.  I know some of these folks, yet I don't know a single "antifa".  The Bay Area has one of the most liberal populations in this country.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> And I'd say the same about Don Lemon, Joe Scarborough, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, etc.  The right side of your political ideology rears its head on these forums more than maybe you think.  Maybe you're farther from the center than you think.


I’d agree with your list.

If I were an r fan girl, I’d probably be a Susan Collins Republican. Though I do readily admit the govt overreach on the pandemic and the tech overreach on free speech has given me more of a populist bent these days.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm talking the number of trumpers that would go to war for him.  What do you think that percentage is?  Anecdotally I think the trumpers win hands down.  I know some of these folks, yet I don't know a single "antifa".  The Bay Area has one of the most liberal populations in this country.


i know a ton of ds that seriously considered for a second having California leave the union when he was elected 2016


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I had to look up Andy Ngo -- his name was super familiar to me.  Not diverge from this discussion, but Andy is a nutjob.  Pretty sure I'd take everything he says/writes with a grain of salt.


He likes to put himself in the front of pissing people off and then complain that people are pissed off at him.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> i know a ton of ds that seriously considered for a second having California leave the union when he was elected 2016


seriously Tds is a thing.  The day after the 2016 election I got crashed into by a hit and run driver.  I chased her down in a pursuit. She made a wrong turn and got caught by security. She broke down in tears in my arms apologizing and freaking out about trump and what had happened and how she had no hope and California had to leave the union to protect us all.


----------



## espola (Jan 9, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> from the sound of it your colors are red and black. At least you are willing to add a splash every once in a while. So transparent


I have nothing to hide.  My political positions and personal behavior are pretty much what used to be called "conservative" until the definition of that word was taken over by opportunists in the last decade or so.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 9, 2021)

espola said:


> I have nothing to hide.  My political positions and personal behavior are pretty much what used to be called "conservative" until the definition of that word was taken over by opportunists in the last decade or so.


That’s funny. You voted for Reagan?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> neither Cruz nor Hawley advocated for the violent overthrow Of the us government, did not condone the takeover, and when they came didn’t join them to overthrow the government.I’mlong time acquaintance of Ted but have never been a fan. Your statement is bulls—-
> 
> as Rudy his legal results speak for themselves


You also said Mr. Magat Magoo had nothing to do with it. 

Anyway, I’ve been meaning to get in touch with that guy with the ugly wife, and it sounds like you’ve got his cell #. Can you DM it to me when you have the chance since you know him so well?


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Ahh... just when we don't need her, here comes the old bag with another lecture about race. As one of the 'brown people' she keeps talking down too I'm starting to find the endless claims about the inability of people like me to compete with 'the white people' to be wildly insulting. 









						Momentum builds among House Democrats to impeach Trump as Speaker Nancy Pelosi accuses rioters of choosing ‘their whiteness over democracy’
					

Democrats in Congress laid plans for swift impeachment of President Donald Trump.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny. You voted for Reagan?


Reagan was a Democrat and union president until he figured out that GE paid more for Republican-type speeches.

I have never voted for a Democrat or Republican for President until 2020.  I would have voted for Nixon in 1968 (my first year of voting eligibility) but I lived in 4 states that year and ended up not registered in any of them.  By 1972 I had figured out he was a crook.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Reagan was a Democrat and union president until he figured out that GE paid more for Republican-type speeches.
> 
> I have never voted for a Democrat or Republican for President until 2020.  I would have voted for Nixon in 1968 (my first year of voting eligibility) but I lived in 4 states that year and ended up not registered in any of them.  By 1972 I had figured out he was a crook.


Nixon was not a conservative....see price controls

now mr Magoo on the other hand.....


----------



## whatithink (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Def a good point.
> 
> You can look at it from another perspective though.  Imagine having a high ranking official in the US government under the subtle influence of a foreign entity that is in 100% opposition to US interest all over the world.  That foreign entity has  the capacity to wage this effort across the full spectrum.  Russia isn't capable of that, not even close and not in a position to really ever do it.  China has the capacity, the capability, the discipline, and the motivation to do it.  And are doing it, right now and has been for a long time.
> 
> Trump - Russia is laughable at best (from a non political aspect).  Makes for great political theater though.  China is different, we are intertwined differently with them and need them just as much as they need us.  The field has never been level.  You can argue whether or not the field became more level over the last 4 years.  What really can't be argued is that China is a persistent soft and hard threat to US interests, foreign and domestic.


Sure, and you could say that the reverse is also true. For China, the US is a direct threat to its aspirations to exert itself and be a world leader. The US has invaded more countries and enabled more wars than China ever has - it’s not even remotely close.

the Chinese figured out that Communism doesn’t work but the leadership has no intention of allowing democracy. It’s more like an autocratic capitalist society. They have hundreds of millions of people they need to bring up economically, I doubt they are as concerned with the US as the reverse.

either way, they are working on their 30 year plan while the US works on the next election cycle. There’s only one winner there.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> neither Cruz nor Hawley advocated for the violent overthrow Of the us government, did not condone the takeover, and when they came didn’t join them to overthrow the government.I’mlong time acquaintance of Ted but have never been a fan. Your statement is bulls—-
> 
> as Rudy his legal results speak for themselves


This is an interesting take on Cruz and Hawley's role and responsibility:









						Cruz and Hawley’s Illegal Objections
					

Senators Cruz and Hawley were not just acting badly or cowardly or opportunistically. It is important that people see why they were acting…




					lessig.medium.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> seriously Tds is a thing.  The day after the 2016 election I got crashed into by a hit and run driver.  I chased her down in a pursuit. She made a wrong turn and got caught by security. She broke down in tears in my arms apologizing and freaking out about trump and what had happened and how she had no hope and California had to leave the union to protect us all.


I mean...can't blame her.  Trump has been disastrous for this country.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

We need more republicans like Kinzinger:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348292912375881729


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean...can't blame her.  Trump has been disastrous for this country.


the police investigator said that if she had hit me a foot or two further on the right I likely would have been killed and my kids would have been left orphans. She took off afterwards too which is no more excusable than the behavior you are decrying at the capitol   So yeah I do blame her and your comment is insensitive and personally offensive to me and disgusting. If extremists really believe politics is so much their life that they go around in hysterics almost killing people then that’s very sad because there’s more to life to politics. If things are so far gone you think this behavior is excusable maybe you really should start advocating for a peaceful separation of you hate others who think different so much.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 10, 2021)

Worth the read.









						The woke purge
					

Twitter’s suspension of Donald Trump is a chilling sign of tyranny to come.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the police investigator said that if she had hit me a foot or two further on the right I likely would have been killed and my kids would have been left orphans. She took off afterwards too which is no more excusable than the behavior you are decrying at the capitol   So yeah I do blame her and your comment is insensitive and personally offensive to me and disgusting. If extremists really believe politics is so much their life that they go around in hysterics almost killing people then that’s very sad because there’s more to life to politics. If things are so far gone you think this behavior is excusable maybe you really should start advocating for a peaceful separation of you hate others who think different so much.


Drama much? I was saying that in jest. Glad you and your family survived the accident. 

That said, I do think folks had legitimate concerns with a Trump administration. Those concerns have played out. 

What I find so funny is people on the left, at least in my circles, have no problems calling out left wing politicians, but people on the right have an incredibly difficult time in conceding much.  You pretend to do this on here, but anyone can see through it.  Quite honestly, this is the biggest threat to this country.  The lack of objectivism is a huge problem.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Drama much? I was saying that in jest. Glad you and your family survived the accident.
> 
> That said, I do think folks had legitimate concerns with a Trump administration. Those concerns have played out.
> 
> What I find so funny is people on the left, at least in my circles, have no problems calling out left wing politicians, but people on the right have an incredibly difficult time in conceding much.  You pretend to do this on here, but anyone can see through it.  Quite honestly, this is the biggest threat to this country.  The lack of objectivism is a huge problem.


Your joke was offensive. A more decent person would have apologized. Talk about lack of objectivism.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> We need more republicans like Kinzinger:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348292912375881729


I mean this is rich:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348074119041077250
I wonder Kellyanne.....how did this happen?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Your joke was offensive. A more decent person would have apologized. Talk about lack of objectivism.


Oh give me a break. You wrote this:

"seriously Tds is a thing. The day after the 2016 election I got crashed into by a hit and run driver. I chased her down in a pursuit. She made a wrong turn and got caught by security. She broke down in tears in my arms apologizing and freaking out about trump and what had happened and how she had no hope and California had to leave the union to protect us all."

Where in your message did it relay anything about your family or how your life was potentially at risk. You were ok to chase after her and hold her in your arms. 

Man the drama runs thick with you.  Like I said, I'm glad your family survived the accident.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh give me a break. You wrote this:
> 
> "seriously Tds is a thing. The day after the 2016 election I got crashed into by a hit and run driver. I chased her down in a pursuit. She made a wrong turn and got caught by security. She broke down in tears in my arms apologizing and freaking out about trump and what had happened and how she had no hope and California had to leave the union to protect us all."
> 
> ...


What part of hit and run don’t you understand?   Either you are justifying it or making a horrible joke. Either way the decent thing would have been to apologize for the insensitive remark which just shows how indecent you are.  So before you go around casting stones around the behavior of others maybe a little introspection is called for on your behalf


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

I guess "Some" Blue Lives Matter:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ku7zo6

This one is tough to watch, you've been forwarned:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/kucaz0


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What part of hit and run don’t you understand?   Either you are justifying it or making a horrible joke. Either way the decent thing would have been to apologize for the insensitive remark which just shows how indecent you are.  So before you go around casting stones around the behavior of others maybe a little introspection is called for on your behalf


Oh my god.  A hit and run could as simple as a fender bender.  I'm absolutely not apologizing because you didn't relay the level of seriousness around the accident.  Give me a break.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh my god.  A hit and run could as simple as a fender bender.  I'm absolutely not apologizing because you didn't relay the level of seriousness around the accident.  Give me a break.


Well we can all see who you are now.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess "Some" Blue Lives Matter:
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Those guys had a sworn duty to protect the nations capitol and yet stood by, with guns on their hips and did nothing as the place was looted. 
While this is in terrible taste I will admit, there is part of me that wonders could these video could be evidence that god still loves America?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

The latest coming out of the d caucuses, floated by clyburn, is that they’ll wait til after the first Biden 100 days to transmit the article of impeachment to the senate

If so then there is no longer a clear and immediate danger they’ve been citing of president trump. It’s pure politics of revenge. Tactically it gives the rs time to consolidate. By then the country will be slightly reopening and people will be looking to move on hopefully after Biden has had a great unifying 100 days.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well we can all see who you are now.


Yes, and we can see who you are.  Someone who is expecting me to be a mind reader or someone who is so narcissistic they think I should be extracting more details from what happened in this event in your life prior to making any kind of comments.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the police investigator said that if she had hit me a foot or two further on the right I likely would have been killed and my kids would have been left orphans. She took off afterwards too which is no more excusable than the behavior you are decrying at the capitol   So yeah I do blame her and your comment is insensitive and personally offensive to me and disgusting. If extremists really believe politics is so much their life that they go around in hysterics almost killing people then that’s very sad because there’s more to life to politics. If things are so far gone you think this behavior is excusable maybe you really should start advocating for a peaceful separation of you hate others who think different so much.


Wah. This is a pathetic reason to excuse a coup attempt.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Yes, and we can see who you are.  Someone who is expecting me to be either a mind reader or someone who is so narcissistic they think I should be extracting more details from what happened in this event in your life prior to making any kind of comments.


no a more decent person would have said: “ I didn’t know it was that serious. You didn’t make that clear. I can see why you’d see my remark as insensitive and it caused you distress.  So sorry about that and if I had know I wouldn’t have made that remark. Of course her conduct was not excusable.”

but you chose to go the indecent route which is the problem with politics today and human decency in general.


----------



## watfly (Jan 10, 2021)

If you're arguing about whether Anti-Fa or Trump nutjobs are worse our country is in serious trouble and you're incapable of seeing the bigger picture.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh my god.  A hit and run could as simple as a fender bender.  I'm absolutely not apologizing because you didn't relay the level of seriousness around the accident.  Give me a break.


Gross exaggerated self-pity is what Karen Grace does. She justifies traveling out of state during a pandemic and spreading covid because she thinks her kid will commit suicide if he can’t play kiddie soccer.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Personal life issues aside, kind of wish Arnold could come as gov:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348249481284874240


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

We'll probably see more and more of this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348286015102967811


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What part of hit and run don’t you understand?   Either you are justifying it or making a horrible joke. Either way the decent thing would have been to apologize for the insensitive remark which just shows how indecent you are.  So before you go around casting stones around the behavior of others maybe a little introspection is called for on your behalf


To be fair here, you said you "chased her down", that to me says you were not in any danger nor injured. I think you're being a little harsh here.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess "Some" Blue Lives Matter:
> 
> 
> __
> ...


That photo gave me a real, physical reaction. What in the actual fuck.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> To be fair here, you said you "chased her down", that to me says you were not in any danger nor injured. I think you're being a little harsh here.


I’ll take the criticism and say fair but when the seriousness is of the situation was made clear to the poster the decent thing would have been to retract.  Further since when do we live in a world when it’s ok to hit and run at all regardless of the seriousness of the situation?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no a more decent person would have said: “ I didn’t know it was that serious. You didn’t make that clear. I can see why you’d see my remark as insensitive and it caused you distress.  So sorry about that and if I had know I wouldn’t have made that remark. Of course her conduct was not excusable.”
> 
> but you chose to go the indecent route which is the problem with politics today and human decency in general.


Somebody is ignoring that magat trumpanzees constitute 99% of road ragers, who have intentionally tried to, and actually have, killed people. I’m not talking about fake exaggerated claims by Karens, but things that actually happened. 









						Truck driver from Trump 'rolling rally' accused of firing gun on I-270 surrenders
					

Todd Crawford, 58, of Homer, has been charged with a third-degree felony, following an altercation with another driver in which he fired a gun.



					www.dispatch.com
				












						Two MAGA Vehicles Involved in Hermosa Beach Road Rage Crash, Car Flips
					

You'd think the MAGA caravans would be over by now, but they clearly aren't.




					www.tmz.com
				












						Trump supporter charged in armed road rage incident involving bumper stickers
					

MOORHEAD, Minn. — A North Dakota man has been charged in Minnesota with allegedly showing a handgun to another driver during a road rage fit over a political bumper sticker on her vehicle. KFGO Rad…




					www.twincities.com
				












						Raleigh mom says 2 men wearing MAGA hats pulled gun on her and teen daughter
					

A Raleigh woman says a trip to a BJ's on her day off ended with her life being threatened by two men wearing MAGA hats.




					abc11.com
				












						Facebook Video Shows Trump Supporter's Road Rage Against Black Motorist
					

"Are you just another n**ger that doesn't understand anything?" the Trump supporter said.




					www.diversityinc.com
				






			https://www.sunherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article113021818.html
		










						Hilliard police arrest man for firing gun during 'road-rage' incident
					

A 58-year-old man turned himself into the Hilliard Division of Police several hours after what authorities called a “road-rage” incident in which the man was accused of shooting a gun at the cab of a semitruck, according to an Oct. 3 news release.



					www.thisweeknews.com
				












						Trump supporter charged in armed road rage incident involving bumper stickers
					

MOORHEAD, Minn. — A North Dakota man has been charged in Minnesota with allegedly showing a handgun to another driver during a road rage fit over a political bumper sticker on her vehicle. KFGO Rad…




					www.twincities.com
				




And of course...



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/11/david-curb-maga/


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’ll take the criticism and say fair but when the seriousness is of the situation was made clear to the poster the decent thing would have been to retract.  Further since when do we live in a world when it’s ok to hit and run at all regardless of the seriousness of the situation?


I'm right here @Grace T. , the "poster" you're referring to.

I said this:

"I mean...can't blame her. Trump has been disastrous for this country."

Where do I say anything about a hit and run being ok? I was simply referring to her feeling distress about Trump being elected. I find it offensive that you're implying I think hit and runs are ok. Why didn't you know I think hit and runs are bad even though my comment was incredibly vague? A decent person would apologize to me? See how that works?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> That photo gave me a real, physical reaction. What in the actual fuck.


I have to come back to this. I know it's bad forum etiquette to reply to my own post.

Here's the thing- these people are not Republicans. They are deranged psycopaths. Trump is not a "real" Republican. Trump does not care one iota about these scum bags brutalizing this poor man-who say they are doing it for Trump.

How can any LEO see this photo and still back him? If he was any type of human, he would put out a passionate, authentic statement denoucing this for what it is- cold blooded murder.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I have to come back to this. I know it's bad forum etiquette to reply to my own post.
> 
> Here's the thing- these people are not Republicans. They are deranged psycopaths. Trump is not a "real" Republican. Trump does not care one iota about these scum bags brutalizing this poor man-who say they are doing it for Trump.
> 
> How can any LEO see this photo and still back him? If he was any type of human, he would put out a passionate, authentic statement denoucing this for what it is- cold blooded murder.


Sorry the photos/video are tough to look at. I probably should've made sure they weren't auto embedded. They're pretty disturbing. More and more of this is coming out. 

I fully agree.  The republican party is not what it once was.  I hope they can re-assemble and find a better path.  They became so reliant on the Trump base they put aside country. Early on I can understand that temptation to roll with things to get legislation you care about passed, but now there's really no excuse.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm right here @Grace T. , the "poster" you're referring to.
> 
> I said this:
> 
> ...


Way to triple down. Glass houses man. Glasses houses

I gotta say being a 3x minority I’ve seen a lot of disgusting behavior from both the right and the left in my life time.   This righteousness from the left though makes it more disgusting. At least the right wallows in its awfulness


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Sorry the photos/video are tough to look at. I probably should've made sure they weren't auto embedded. They're pretty disturbing. More and more of this is coming out.
> 
> I fully agree.  The republican party is not what it once was.  I hope they can re-assemble and find a better path.  They became so reliant on the Trump base they put aside country. Early on I can understand that temptation to roll with things to get legislation you care about passed, but now there's really no excuse.


I will just add.  This is absolute evidence that really bad things would've happened had they reached our senators/reps.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Sorry the photos/video are tough to look at. I probably should've made sure they weren't auto embedded. They're pretty disturbing. More and more of this is coming out.
> 
> I fully agree.  The republican party is not what it once was.  I hope they can re-assemble and find a better path.  They became so reliant on the Trump base they put aside country. Early on I can understand that temptation to roll with things to get legislation you care about passed, but now there's really no excuse.


Proto-trumpanzees have constituted the majority of constituents in the ‘publican party since at least the days of Old Man Senility and the First Numerologist. The only thing that has changed is that Mr. Shits Into His Depends convinced them they don’t need to keep their racism, bigotry, a**holeness and conspiracy theories to themselves anymore. ‘Publicans thought for decades that they had those votes safely locked in the basement, but Trump opened the backdoor for them.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Way to triple down. Glass houses man. Glasses houses
> 
> I gotta say being a 3x minority I’ve seen a lot of disgusting behavior from both the right and the left in my life time.   This righteousness from the left though makes it more disgusting. At least the right wallows in its awfulness


That’s one way to defend the attempted overthrow of the United States.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Way to triple down. Glass houses man. Glasses houses
> 
> I gotta say being a 3x minority I’ve seen a lot of disgusting behavior from both the right and the left in my life time.   This righteousness from the left though makes it more disgusting. At least the right wallows in its awfulness


What are you even talking about? This makes no sense whatsoever. 

Look, I've been incredibly cordial on this forum.  You're needling me for something so incredibly innocuous and, as a result, calling me an indecent person.  Clearly any reasonable person can see how the conversation played out.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

This is Capitol Officer Sicknick after he was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher and kicked repeatedly by the mob, but before he died. These are the murderers whose actions Karen Grace keeps rationalizing, excusing and blaming on others. No one is going to apologize to you Grace Karen. You’re a sick person.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> What are you even talking about? This makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> Look, I've been incredibly cordial on this forum.  You're needling me for something so incredibly innocuous and, as a result, calling me an indecent person.  Clearly any reasonable person can see how the conversation played out.


I would guess he’s still mad that you told him he had exposed himself as not understanding the law when he is in fact a lawyer.

My assumption is you were jesting in good spirit.  But then again I’ve spent enough time around white people who grew up with wealth, to understand that a lot of time when it feels like they are pissing on you they are often oblivious to it. So I always let this kind of stuff go.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> What are you even talking about? This makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> Look, I've been incredibly cordial on this forum.  You're needling me for something so incredibly innocuous and, as a result, calling me an indecent person.  Clearly any reasonable person can see how the conversation played out.


A decent person would have had the courteously to say sorry.  If after apologizing you had said: “I hope you arent construing that I’m ok with hit and runs because that what you implied”. I would have had the decency to clarify and apologizing.  But under the best reading if not excusing the behavior you made light of a situation which was serious and traumatizing for my family, where the point was this investment in politics by some was leading to collateral harm to others. That was not decent...but you rather be right than decent which is one of the big problems now days.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

If you’d like to see video of the domestic terrorists that Mr. Shits In His Pants incited beating officer Sicknick to death, here you go:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348334770103660553


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I would guess he’s still mad that you told him he had exposed himself as not understanding the law when he is in fact a lawyer.
> 
> My assumption is you were jesting in good spirit.  But then again I’ve spent enough time around white people who grew up with wealth, to understand that a lot of time when it feels like they are pissing on you they are often oblivious to it. So I always let this kind of stuff go.


not pissed about that, not a he, not white.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> A decent person would have had the courteously to say sorry.  If after apologizing you had said: “I hope you arent construing that I’m ok with hit and runs because that what you implied”. I would have had the decency to clarify and apologizing.  But under the best reading if not excusing the behavior you made light of a situation which was serious and traumatizing for my family, where the point was this investment in politics by some was leading to collateral harm to others. That was not decent...but you rather be right than decent which is one of the big problems now days.


Such self-pity. Wanna watch the murder of the Capitol police officer by domestic terrorists incited by your Orange Magat Master?  Here you go:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348334770103660553


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Here’s a much “better” video of Officer Sicknick getting murdered. You get a really super awesome view of someone beating him with an American flag. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348133677541126144


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

This gives you a better angle of him getting beaten with crutches.

I definitely think we should “unify” and not impeach.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348270314170494977


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> not pissed about that, not a he, not white.


I did get the he part wrong, but it was NorCal who I was calling out as the cracker 

Anyway, glad to hear a female voice in here.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

@MSK357 would probably say he died “with” repeated blows to the head.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Such self-pity. Wanna watch the murder of the Capitol police officer by domestic terrorists incited by your Orange Magat Master?  Here you go:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348334770103660553


Be they palace guards or capitol police... if the mob shows up at the gates and you throw down your arms then chances are you die a horrible death.
Just putting it out there so that next time maybe they will do their duty. If not to protect the capital, then to protect themselves.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Be they palace guards or capitol police... if the mob shows up at the gates and you throw down your arms then chances are you die a horrible death.
> Just putting it out there so that next time maybe they will do their duty. If not to protect the capital, then to protect themselves.


If the person getting beaten to death had been the Capitol Police Chief or the Secretary of Defense, both of whom were responsible for instructing their subordinates what to do, I would completely agree with you.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

By the way, a Capitol police officer just committed suicide. Contrast what he was going through to Grace Karen whining about how she was worried about her son doing the same because he couldn’t play youth soccer for a couple months. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348332737992794118


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Such self-pity. Wanna watch the murder of the Capitol police officer by domestic terrorists incited by your Orange Magat Master?  Here you go:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348334770103660553


Twitter should definitely be forced to allow the Incontinent Inciter in Chief to continue inciting and coordinating insurrection on their platform, right Karen Grace?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

So who wants to discuss why the Capitol insurrection wasn’t a big deal? Or how Mr. Shit For Brains and In His Pants Also didn’t incite this? Or the great job he’s done since to help our country heal and bring these criminals and murderers to justice?

Or maybe we should just talk about Grace Karen’s car accident a couple years ago since she believes everything is about her?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> So who wants to discuss why the Capitol insurrection wasn’t a big deal? Or how Mr. Shit For Brains and In His Pants Also didn’t incite this? Or the great job he’s done since to help our country heal and bring these criminals and murderers to justice?
> 
> Or maybe we should just talk about Grace Karen’s car accident a couple years ago since she believes everything is about her?


You seem to be doing a great job all by yourself.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I would guess he’s still mad that you told him he had exposed himself as not understanding the law when he is in fact a lawyer.
> 
> My assumption is you were jesting in good spirit.  But then again I’ve spent enough time around white people who grew up with wealth, to understand that a lot of time when it feels like they are pissing on you they are often oblivious to it. So I always let this kind of stuff go.


@Grace T. if what @tenacious is saying here is true, I absolutely apologize for that. 

Otherwise, if we're headed down the name calling path, that's probably my cue to do something better with my time. I know others do that here, but most of them I have muted. I've enjoyed the dialog with the folks I don't have muted


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> You seem to be doing a great job all by yourself.


Yup. Crickets from the trumpanzees. Have the repercussions of their ongoing support of the Bronze Baboon finally sunk in with the socalsoccer sycophants? I mean other than Karen Grace, who still thinks this is the fault of some woman with whom she got into a fender bender, and Bill Clinton. Maybe also Cicero, but I still can’t figure out the link between Orange Julius and Julius Caeser.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That’s exactly what I’m saying (and not just worse but much nightmarish worst) and it would also be a tactical mistake away from important work the Biden admin needs to do. What we need now is the lowering of the temperature and statesmanship


This is akin to not reporting the neighborhood tough guys to the police for smashing up my kid's bike because of fear that they might smash up my car in retaliation.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Yup. Crickets from the trumpanzees. Have the repercussions of their ongoing support of the Bronze Baboon finally sunk in with the socalsoccer sycophants? I mean other than Karen Grace, who still thinks this is the fault of some woman with whom she got into a fender bender, and Bill Clinton. Maybe also Cicero, but I still can’t figure out the link between Orange Julius and Julius Caeser.


Yah....watching extremists basically say, “Oh yah, we’ll watch this” with our businesses, livelihoods and basic fundamentals of our Government over the past 9 months has grown rather tiresome.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I work in entertainment, and so by default have a lot of very liberal friends on Facebook. A good friend of mine was just complaining that some fb post he made about sending in the National Guard to clean things up in during the riots got censored and he was warned about being on probation if he kept it up.
> 
> So I don't think it's just the right wing that's getting caught up in it, its the far lefties too. Neither side hears about it though, because what's happening to everyone else rarely pierces the partisan bubble.


Most people don’t whine and play the victim like the righties, squeaky wheels looking for the grease.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Is anyone else having problems accessing Parler?  The app doesn’t seem to be working on my iPhone and it still doesn’t work when Iog in directly through their website?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Most people don’t whine and play the victim like the righties, squeaky wheels looking for the grease.


I think you meant Karens and snowflakes.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Nah the one where Hunter Biden got a Burisma board position for no reason or experience, where he had business dealings with China despite the lack of experience, and where allusions were made by the Biden family that Joe Biden was involved and aware, including by their former business partner and the recovered laptop.


Where’s the laptop?


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I think I called this earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My daughter texted me yesterday that parler founder John Matze was in her high school class, and he was already a jerk back then.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I think you meant Karens and snowflakes.


I’d rather just refer to them as righties. I don’t want to call them names..


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Gosh, not only do magats need to cancel Twitter, throw out their iphones and cancel Amazon Prime, but now they also need to give up golf. Will the 1st Amendment and the free market ever stop?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348341371082584065


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’d rather just refer to them as righties. I don’t want to call them names..


I understand. I’ll take care of it.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

An interesting read explaining why Grace Karen is wrong that it’s a bad idea to impeach the Peach of S**t. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348050428756254720


----------



## whatithink (Jan 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Worth the read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty sensationalist, definitely stirring the pot and conclusions are pretty delusional. Given how heated people are, concluding that there is a "purge" coming and language like that is just dumping large logs on large fires.

Maybe some of this needs to be reframed, e.g. corporations give free accounts and platforms to people in exchange for their data. They have those people sign T&Cs (which they can change whenever they want and without anyone's permission). Nobody has a "right" to be on these platforms. Nobodies "rights" are being infringed if they decide to boot you off, if they can point to their T&Cs (which they can change whenever they want - and you agreed to that when you clicked "Agree").

If someone wants to be able to post what they want, when they want, if they want, then the technology is there to allow you to create that platform and applications ... but you may need to engage with a Corporate to do it ... and there will be T&Cs, so comply or don't.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

I new poll from frontier says 71% of trump voters anticipate a new civil war. 40.% of Biden voters think that. The pollster ain’t one of the big ones but numbers are still startling

a few years back I had to get politically involved (I loathe being politically involved) when local govt threatened to shut down my sons schools. I ran into conflict with a lot of people on the left and right (including getting racist and bigoted stuff and surprisingly not all from the right). A lot of nastiness from both sides. I must say though I found the left more open about their nastiness...I appreciated the honesty. The right though was more capable of introspection and able to condemn behavior they thought was over the line...I didn’t see much of that from the left.  Nothing on this thread btw disavows me of this belief. If we divide I’d find it hard to decide which way I’d go but at this point I’d sooner take my chances with the right than left.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Further escalations.  The Ds are planning to bring censure resolutions against Gohmert, Brooks and Gaetz.  Only 23 members have been censured in the history.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> This is akin to not reporting the neighborhood tough guys to the police for smashing up my kid's bike because of fear that they might smash up my car in retaliation.


Poor analogy.  This is your best friend next door went around tping the neighborhood a few months ago and you not only said nothing but you defended him.  Then your neighbors cousin smashes up your kids bike, saying you deserved it because you are an asshat.  Your neighbor comes over and apologizes for his cousin's behavior and offers to pay for the bike but you want your neighbor thrown out of the neighbor because he refuses to disavow his cousin strongly enough.  You keep taunting your neighbor that his family is garbage, call the police on him and try to organize the rest of the neighborhood never to have anything to do with him.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Further escalations.  The Ds are planning to bring censure resolutions against Gohmert, Brooks and Gaetz.  Only 23 members have been censured in the history.


The Dems are so escalatory, unlike magats who only incite coups and the overthrow of democracy. If things get worse when we come back “locked and loaded”, it’s Dems’ fault. They made us do it.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I new poll from frontier says 71% of trump voters anticipate a new civil war. 40.% of Biden voters think that. The pollster ain’t one of the big ones but numbers are still startling
> 
> a few years back I had to get politically involved (I loathe being politically involved) when local govt threatened to shut down my sons schools. I ran into conflict with a lot of people on the left and right (including getting racist and bigoted stuff and surprisingly not all from the right). A lot of nastiness from both sides. I must say though I found the left more open about their nastiness...I appreciated the honesty. The right though was more capable of introspection and able to condemn behavior they thought was over the line...I didn’t see much of that from the left.  Nothing on this thread btw disavows me of this belief. If we divide I’d find it hard to decide which way I’d go but at this point I’d sooner take my chances with the right than left.


Here's the thing though- this is nothing but anecdotal. Every person on this board has  left vs right story. 

This is such an "If you can't beat em, join em" attitude to have. I'm actually surprised to see it coming from you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Here's the thing though- this is nothing but anecdotal. Every person on this board has  left vs right story.
> 
> This is such an "If you can't beat em, join em" attitude to have. I'm actually surprised to see it coming from you.


I'd rather things settle down, Biden be a unifying president and us move on from the Trump mess.  It doesn't seem like that's the choice given the now 3 escalations the Ds seem intent on pursuing.

My civil war clock is now at 6 after the events of this weekend.  If it comes to that, I'm actually torn as to where I'd go...blue or red America.  Lots of pros and cons both ways.  I'm currently leaning red, though wouldn't be happy about it.  Both sides need each other to balance the worst impulses of each.  But the way things seem to be heading, it doesn't look like this marriage may be salvagable  (and at least from the poll a substantial number of Americans seem to agree).


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Poor analogy.  This is your best friend next door went around tping the neighborhood a few months ago and you not only said nothing but you defended him.  Then your neighbors cousin smashes up your kids bike, saying you deserved it because you are an asshat.  Your neighbor comes over and apologizes for his cousin's behavior and offers to pay for the bike but you want your neighbor thrown out of the neighbor because he refuses to disavow his cousin strongly enough.  You keep taunting your neighbor that his family is garbage, call the police on him and try to organize the rest of the neighborhood never to have anything to do with him.


There is a difference between tp-ing a neighborhood and beating a police officer to death while overrunning the U.S. Capitol in support of an insurrection.  In fact, there is no appropriate “analogy” to a coup.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'd rather things settle down, Biden be a unifying president and us move on from the Trump mess.  It doesn't seem like that's the choice given the now 3 escalations the Ds seem intent on pursuing.
> 
> My civil war clock is now at 6 after the events of this weekend.  If it comes to that, I'm actually torn as to where I'd go...blue or red America.  Lots of pros and cons both ways.  I'm currently leaning red, though wouldn't be happy about it.  Both sides need each other to balance the worst impulses of each.  But the way things seem to be heading, it doesn't look like this marriage may be salvagable  (and at least from the poll a substantial number of Americans seem to agree).


If the R's were smart, (and it seems they are leaning this way,) they would denounce Trump and work on getting into a good position to win in 4 years. 

I really think for that to happen they need to sever ties with that whole family. 

I'm not sure Biden had 2 terms in him, (despite his age even.) There is a large chunk of "left centrists" that would like go repub with the right candidate. As long as it's not Ted fuck face Cruz, of course. (Sorry, I know he's a friend but he seems slimy as shit.)


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'd rather things settle down, Biden be a unifying president and us move on from the Trump mess.  It doesn't seem like that's the choice given the now 3 escalations the Ds seem intent on pursuing.
> 
> My civil war clock is now at 6 after the events of this weekend.  If it comes to that, I'm actually torn as to where I'd go...blue or red America.  Lots of pros and cons both ways.  I'm currently leaning red, though wouldn't be happy about it.  Both sides need each other to balance the worst impulses of each.  But the way things seem to be heading, it doesn't look like this marriage may be salvagable  (and at least from the poll a substantial number of Americans seem to agree).


This is all the fault of Democrats. Holding people accountable under the law is such an escalation in response to an attempted coup. Can’t we all just let seditionists be seditionists?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm talking the number of trumpers that would go to war for him.  What do you think that percentage is?  Anecdotally I think the trumpers win hands down.  I know some of these folks, yet I don't know a single "antifa".  The Bay Area has one of the most liberal populations in this country.


Put aside using recent terms like Trumpers etc, the far right wing is more dangerous to the US government than any group in the US.  They are better organized, better trained, and truly believe in their cause.  They dislike Trump as much as anyone.   Trump was/is merely a vehicle of convenience for them. While antifa can be dangerous in spots, they lack the will, the discipline, and the organization to do anymore than what they've been doing.  Antifa will sip lattes by day and set off fireworks by night.

Both sides revel in anarchy but the far right is more dangerously committed to their cause - Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Eric Rudolph, etc...I could go on.  Most recently, the boogalo boys took advantage of the CA BLM riots and killed several law enforcement.

While there were plenty of idiots at the Capitol building, rest assured they will uncover a more sophisticated plot that goes well beyond what the average trumper was capable of.  Will DOJ leak any of it out...maybe,  The US government has a terrible track record containing these far right groups.

And yes, ANTIFA is a thing.  Don't be fooled into the silly narrative about an idea VS a group.  They are both and have received plenty of impromptu funding over the last 7-8 months.  But they aren't as dangerous.  Local law enforcement, when allowed, can easily contain.  Until recently hamstrung, Portland and Seattle PD were always effective.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> If the R's were smart, (and it seems they are leaning this way,) they would denounce Trump and work on getting into a good position to win in 4 years.
> 
> I really think for that to happen they need to sever ties with that whole family.
> 
> I'm not sure Biden had 2 terms in him, (despite his age even.) There is a large chunk of "left centrists" that would like go reoublican with the right candidate. As long as it's not Ted fuck face Cruz, of course. (Sorry, I know he's a friend but he seems slimy as shit.)


What are you talking about?  Grace Karen says they don’t need to do anything. This is all on Democrats.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Put aside using recent terms like Trumpers etc, the far right wing is more dangerous to the US government than any group in the US.  They are better organized, better trained, and truly believe in their cause.  They dislike Trump as much as anyone.   Trump was/is merely a vehicle of convenience for them. While antifa can be dangerous in spots, they lack the will, the discipline, and the organization to do anymore than what they've been doing.  Antifa will sip lattes by day and set off fireworks by night.
> 
> Both sides revel in anarchy but the far right is more dangerously committed to their cause - Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Eric Rudolph, etc...I could go on.  Most recently, the boogalo boys took advantage of the CA BLM riots and killed several law enforcement.
> 
> ...


The last sentence of your first para- lol! 
But yes- I fully agree. The far right is chillingly dangerous, IMO.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess "Some" Blue Lives Matter:
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Why some?  Being sarcastic?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Further escalations.  The Ds are planning to bring censure resolutions against Gohmert, Brooks and Gaetz.  Only 23 members have been censured in the history.


How many members have ever incited a coup before last week?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> The last sentence of your first para- lol!
> But yes- I fully agree. The far right is chillingly dangerous, IMO.


Once their unemployment checks go away, they'll go back to their regularly scheduled protests focused around issues they don't really understand.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I have to come back to this. I know it's bad forum etiquette to reply to my own post.
> 
> Here's the thing- these people are not Republicans. They are deranged psycopaths. Trump is not a "real" Republican. Trump does not care one iota about these scum bags brutalizing this poor man-who say they are doing it for Trump.
> 
> How can any LEO see this photo and still back him? If he was any type of human, he would put out a passionate, authentic statement denoucing this for what it is- cold blooded murder.


Many on here credit trump as being this mastermind of weaving together this complex series of right wing groups to carry out his wishes.  That's giving him way too much credit.  He's not smart enough to even thing that way.  He likely doesn't even understand the complexity.  People give him wayyy to much credit.

Your average fly over state trump supporter is walking away from what happened at the capitol wondering what the hell happened.  Much like your average BLM support is wondering what the hell happened when cities like Minneapolis an Kenosha had city blocks burning for days.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article248409895.html


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Many on here credit trump as being this mastermind of weaving together this complex series of right wing groups to carry out his wishes.  That's giving him way too much credit.  He's not smart enough to even thing that way.  He likely doesn't even understand the complexity.  People give him wayyy to much credit.
> 
> Your average fly over state trump supporter is walking away from what happened at the capitol wondering what the hell happened.  Much like your average BLM support is wondering what the hell happened when cities like Minneapolis an Kenosha had city blocks burning for days.


I agree that the Dipshit in Chief is an imbecile. But even as an imbecile, he knew what his trumpanzee followers would do in response to his statements. The idea that he is too dumb to be accountable for his behavior is a poor argument. He is the president of the United States and many, many people around him made it very clear to him time and again over four years what was likely to happen as a result of his rhetoric. Neither he nor anyone get to use the stupidity of a guy with a UofPenn grad degree and who is the purported leader of the free world as an excuse for anything.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Put aside using recent terms like Trumpers etc, the far right wing is more dangerous to the US government than any group in the US.  They are better organized, better trained, and truly believe in their cause.  They dislike Trump as much as anyone.   Trump was/is merely a vehicle of convenience for them. While antifa can be dangerous in spots, they lack the will, the discipline, and the organization to do anymore than what they've been doing.  Antifa will sip lattes by day and set off fireworks by night.
> 
> Both sides revel in anarchy but the far right is more dangerously committed to their cause - Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Eric Rudolph, etc...I could go on.  Most recently, the boogalo boys took advantage of the CA BLM riots and killed several law enforcement.
> 
> ...


I think you totally summed up how I feel.  I am much more worried about the extreme right than any antifa movement.  The key thing being the extreme right is way more organized.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article248409895.html


If magats beating a Capitol police officer to death during an insurrection does not cause the socalsoccer sycophants to question their perspective, let alone their voting history, what makes you think they care what Colin Powell says?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Why some?  Being sarcastic?


Yeah being sarcastic.  That video was reminiscent of scenes out of Fallujah.  I know, a bit of a stretch, but that crowd didn't give a rat's ass they were killing an officer just trying to do his job.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Many on here credit trump as being this mastermind of weaving together this complex series of right wing groups to carry out his wishes.  That's giving him way too much credit.  He's not smart enough to even thing that way.  He likely doesn't even understand the complexity.  People give him wayyy to much credit.
> 
> Your average fly over state trump supporter is walking away from what happened at the capitol wondering what the hell happened.  Much like your average BLM support is wondering what the hell happened when cities like Minneapolis an Kenosha had city blocks burning for days.


For sure, but Trump has given them a platform.  He's given them a reason to rise up.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article248409895.html


I remember when Powell spoke at commencement at my university and the students protested him for being a bigot, a war monger, and a right wing fascist.  They tried to drown him out with jeers when he spoke.  If my current self could go back in time and tell my 21 year old self that it's not even close, she'd wouldn't believe me.  I wouldn't even tell her the censorship wasn't even close to what would happen.... she'd call me "cuckoo".


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Pretty sensationalist, definitely stirring the pot and conclusions are pretty delusional. Given how heated people are, concluding that there is a "purge" coming and language like that is just dumping large logs on large fires.
> 
> Maybe some of this needs to be reframed, e.g. corporations give free accounts and platforms to people in exchange for their data. They have those people sign T&Cs (which they can change whenever they want and without anyone's permission). Nobody has a "right" to be on these platforms. Nobodies "rights" are being infringed if they decide to boot you off, if they can point to their T&Cs (which they can change whenever they want - and you agreed to that when you clicked "Agree").
> 
> If someone wants to be able to post what they want, when they want, if they want, then the technology is there to allow you to create that platform and applications ... but you may need to engage with a Corporate to do it ... and there will be T&Cs, so comply or don't.


trump could of course just hold a press conference.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I remember when Powell spoke at commencement at my university and the students protested him for being a bigot, a war monger, and a right wing fascist.  They tried to drown him out with jeers when he spoke.  If my current self could go back in time and tell my 21 year old self that it's not even close, she'd wouldn't believe me.  I wouldn't even tell her the censorship wasn't even close to what would happen.... she'd call me "cuckoo".


Like I was saying @espola....


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah being sarcastic.  That video was reminiscent of scenes out of Fallujah.  I know, a bit of a stretch, but that crowd didn't give a rat's ass they were killing an officer just trying to do his job.


The thing that gets me is that someone on here said that the far right feels like they are "looked down upon for being uneducated rednecks (not my words) who like their guns and god". Not saying that poster agrees with that, I am just using that as an example.

Uh. Hmm. What part of trying to overrun democracy screams educated? Not only is it so completely stupid, what "god" would agree with stomping on a fellow human being? They are perpetuating their own stereotype! Have they looked in a mirror?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I new poll from frontier says 71% of trump voters anticipate a new civil war. 40.% of Biden voters think that. The pollster ain’t one of the big ones but numbers are still startling
> 
> a few years back I had to get politically involved (I loathe being politically involved) when local govt threatened to shut down my sons schools. I ran into conflict with a lot of people on the left and right (including getting racist and bigoted stuff and surprisingly not all from the right). A lot of nastiness from both sides. I must say though I found the left more open about their nastiness...I appreciated the honesty. The right though was more capable of introspection and able to condemn behavior they thought was over the line...I didn’t see much of that from the left.  Nothing on this thread btw disavows me of this belief. If we divide I’d find it hard to decide which way I’d go but at this point I’d sooner take my chances with the right than left.


Civil war is a far right, confederate sympathizer fantasy. You would lose again.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> The thing that gets me is that someone on here said that the far right feels like they are "looked down upon for being uneducated rednecks (not my words) who like their guns and god". Not saying that poster agrees with that, I am just using that as an example.
> 
> Uh. Hmm. What part of trying to overrun democracy screams educated? Not only is it so completely stupid, what "god" would agree with stomping on a fellow human being? They are perpetuating their own stereotype! Have they looked in a mirror?


If you're going to call me out, no need to prance around with the passive aggressive talk.  Just come out and say what you think.

Grown men who made oaths and then throw down their weapons and allow the nations symobols to be desecrated, are cowards to me. Every officer on duty that day should be fired and they should have their pensions taken away. That's how I feel.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> If you're going to call me out, no need to prance around with the passive aggressive talk.  Just come out and say what you think.
> 
> Grown men who made oaths who throw down their weapons and allow the nations symobols to be desecrated, are cowards to me. Every officer on duty that day should be fired and they should have their pensions taken away. That's how I feel.


What am I missing here? Calling you out for what?I think we actually agree on this.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> If the R's were smart, (and it seems they are leaning this way,) they would denounce Trump and work on getting into a good position to win in 4 years.
> 
> I really think for that to happen they need to sever ties with that whole family.
> 
> I'm not sure Biden had 2 terms in him, (despite his age even.) There is a large chunk of "left centrists" that would like go repub with the right candidate. As long as it's not Ted fuck face Cruz, of course. (Sorry, I know he's a friend but he seems slimy as shit.)


Kasich


----------



## whatithink (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump could of course just hold a press conference.


I didn’t want to state the blindingly obvious


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Civil war is a far right, confederate sympathizer fantasy. You would lose again.


It's attitudes like this which are going to start it.  And in this civil war there will be no winners, only losers.  

Besides, as others are pointing out, the right has the guns and is more crazy....the left is smarter and better organized but that will only serve them at the beginning.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> What am I missing here? Calling you out for what?I think we actually agree on this.


Oh... I thought you we're referencing me for saying seeing those cowards get beaten makes me think god might still love America a few pages back.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's attitudes like this which are going to start it.  And in this civil war there will be no winners, only losers.
> 
> Besides, as others are pointing out, the right has the guns and is more crazy....the left is smarter and better organized but that will only serve them at the beginning.


p.s. this is the crazy nutter hate I was talking about the left....you don't see it from the right wing trolls....there you have a tendency to see more out and out racism and bigotry....the crazy pound you in the dirt victory at all cost psychotic attitude is what you get from leftist trolls.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Oh... I thought you we're referencing me for saying seeing those cowards get beaten makes me think god might still love America a few pages back.


Oh no no... I was referencing a different post where someone was saying that this far right group claims they are angry for x,y,z....


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Oh no no... I was referencing a different post where someone was saying that this far right group claims they are angry for x,y,z....


copy copy!  I'm apologize for being ornery.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's attitudes like this which are going to start it.  And in this civil war there will be no winners, only losers.
> 
> Besides, as others are pointing out, the right has the guns and is more crazy....the left is smarter and better organized but that will only serve them at the beginning.


The left, America, has the US military.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The left, America, has the US military.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.         That is the dumbest and funniest thing anyone on this thread has posted.  You realize that the woman that was shot was former military.

The officers tend to side with the establishment.  Many grunts are sympathetic to the right.  Few in the military are supportive of the left.  Depending on the circumstances of what triggers it, the military would divide.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Civil war is a far right, confederate sympathizer fantasy. You would lose again.


Law enforcement has been saying that the extreme right are the biggest domestic terror risk for years. The feds have treated them with kids gloves. They should have come down hard on the Bundies when they essentially occupied federal land and had an armed stand off. The same actors did it again in Oregon. They felt it is fine to go to the legislature in MI armed to the hilt - wtf.

this is a perfect excuse to go after whole swathes of these guys who seem to break the law with relative impunity.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Ha ha, Magat insurrectionists can’t get home because they’re being put on do-not-fly list. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348401288065601538


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> copy copy!  I'm apologize for being ornery.


Another example of graciousness and decency.  You rarely see that from those who are hard core left.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

From Peggy Noonan, long-time Republican writer --

This was a sin against history.
When something like this happens it tends to be repeated. It is our job to make sure it is not.
And so we should come down like a hammer on all those responsible, moving with brute dispatch against members of the mob and their instigators.
On the rioters: Find them, drag them out of their basements, and bring them to justice. Use all resources, whatever it takes, with focus and speed. We have pictures of half of them; they like to pose. They larked about taking selfies and smiling unashamed smiles as one strolled out with a House podium. They were so arrogant they were quoted by name in news reports. It is our good luck they are idiots. Capitalize on that luck.
Throw the book at them. Make it a book of commentaries on the Constitution. Throw it hard.
They have shamed and embarrassed their country in the eyes of the world, which is not only a painful fact but a dangerous one. The world, and the young—all of us—need to see them pay the price.
Now to the devil and his apprentices.
As for the chief instigator, the president of the United States, he should be removed from office by the 25th Amendment or impeachment, whichever is faster. This, with only a week and a half to go, would be a most extraordinary action, but this has been an extraordinary time. Mike Pence is a normal American political figure; he will not have to mount a new government; he appears to be sane; he will in this brief, strange interlude do fine.
The president should be removed for reasons of justice—he urged a crowd to march on Congress, and, when it turned violent, had to be dragged into telling them, equivocally, to go home—and prudence. Mitt Romney had it exactly right: “What happened here . . . was an insurrection, incited by the president of the United States.” As for prudence, Mr. Trump is a sick, bad man and therefore, as president, a dangerous one. He has grown casually bloody-minded, nattering on about force and denouncing even his own vice president as a coward for not supporting unconstitutional measures. No one seems to be certain how Mr. Trump spends his days. He doesn’t bother to do his job. The White House is in meltdown. The only thing that captures his interest is the fact that he lost, which fills him with thoughts of vengeance.
Removing him would go some distance to restoring our reputation, reinforcing our standards, and clarifying constitutional boundaries for future presidents who might need it.
As for his appointees and staff, the garbage they talk to rationalize their staying is no longer acceptable to anyone. “But my career.” Your career, in the great scheme of things, is nothing. “But my future in politics.” Your future, even if your wildest schemes are fulfilled, is a footnote to a footnote. There are ways to be a footnote honorably. “But my kids.” When they are 20 they will read the history. You want them proud of your role, not petitioning the court for a name change.
It was honorable to arrive with high hopes and idealistic commitments. It is not honorable to stay.
As for the other instigators, a side note.
True conservatives tend to have a particular understanding of the fragility of things. They understand that every human institution is, in its way, built on sand. It’s all so frail. They see how thin the veil is between civilization and chaos, and understand that we have to go through every day, each in our way, trying to make the veil thicker. And so we value the things in the phrase that others use to disparage us, “law and order.” Yes, always, the rule of law, and order so that the people of a great nation can move freely on the streets and do their work and pursue their lives.
To the devil’s apprentices, Sens. Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz. They are clever men, highly educated, well-credentialed, endlessly articulate. They see themselves as leading conservative lights, but in this drama they have proved themselves punks practicing punk politics. They are like people who know the value of nothing, who see no frailty around them, who inherited a great deal—an estate built by the work and wealth of others—and feel no responsibility for maintaining the foundation because pop gave them a strong house, right? They are careless inheritors of a nation, an institution, a party that previous generations built at some cost.
They backed a lie and held out the chimera of some possible Trump victory that couldn’t happen, and hid behind the pretense that they were just trying to be fair to all parties and investigate any suspicions of vote fraud, when what they were really doing was playing—coolly, with lawyerly sophistication—not to the base but to the sickness within the base. They should have stood up and told the truth, that democracy moves forward, that the election was imperfect as all elections are, and more so because of the pandemic rules, which need to be changed, but the fact is the voters of America chose Biden-Harris, not Trump-Pence.
Here’s to you, boys. Did you see the broken glass, the crowd roaming the halls like vandals in late Rome, the staff cowering in locked closets and barricading offices? Look on your mighty works and despair.
The price they will pay is up to their states. But the reputational cost should be harsh and high.
Again, on the president: There have been leaders before who, facing imminent downfall, decide to tear everything down with them. They want to go out surrounded by flames. Hitler, at the end, wanted to blow up Germany, its buildings and bridges. His people had let him down. Now he hated them. They must suffer.
I have resisted Nazi comparisons for five years, for the most part easily. But that is like what is happening here, the same kind of spirit, as the president departs, as he angrily channel-surfs in his bunker.
He is a bad man and not a stable one and he is dangerous. America is not safe in his hands.
It is not too late. Removal of the president would be the prudent move, not the wild one. Get rid of him. Now.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Kasich


‘Publicans can’t win without magats.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.         That is the dumbest and funniest thing anyone on this thread has posted.  You realize that the woman that was shot was former military.
> 
> The officers tend to side with the establishment.  Many grunts are sympathetic to the right.  Few in the military are supportive of the left.  Depending on the circumstances of what triggers it, the military would divide.


The corporations run America and Wednesday was not good for them. The pols work for them and by extension the military.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> From Peggy Noonan, long-time Republican writer --
> 
> This was a sin against history.
> When something like this happens it tends to be repeated. It is our job to make sure it is not.
> ...


I don’t know. Grace Karen once held an internship, wrote a law review article and debated Ted Cruz in HS. I think she has way more credentials than Peggy.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Another example of graciousness and decency.  You rarely see that from those who are hard core left.


I don't know who your friends on the left are, but you should get new ones. They sound like garbage humans overall, nothing to do with them being left.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The corporations run America and Wednesday was not good for them. The pols work for them and by extension the military.


OMG. Twitter has the nuclear codes!


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I don't know who your friends on the left are, but you should get new ones. They sound like garbage humans overall, nothing to do with them being left.


Same opinion about EOTL, NITF, Espola, Husker?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Same opinion about EOTL, NITF, Espola, Husker?
> [/QUOTE
> How is that even the same thing? None of those people are my friends in real life- was that a serious question? I have said numerous times that IDGAF who anyone votes for- be a decent human being. It's literally not hard at all.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.         That is the dumbest and funniest thing anyone on this thread has posted.  You realize that the woman that was shot was former military.
> 
> The officers tend to side with the establishment.  Many grunts are sympathetic to the right.  Few in the military are supportive of the left.  Depending on the circumstances of what triggers it, the military would divide.


That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you an adult?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

My original proposition was that you rarely see that graciousness from the left.  The folks I had in mind were not just colleagues back in law school, but those that I dealt with in the struggle for my kids school (yeah most of them were garbage human beings), and the lefties here.  Genuine question about your opinion of them.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha, Magat insurrectionists can’t get home because they’re being put on do-not-fly list.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348401288065601538


Is he.... crying?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you an adult?


right back at you.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> From Peggy Noonan, long-time Republican writer --
> 
> This was a sin against history.
> When something like this happens it tends to be repeated. It is our job to make sure it is not.
> ...


I absolutely agree with everything she wrote here.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Same opinion about EOTL, NITF, Espola, Husker?


Are you  suggesting that I am of the left?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Same opinion about EOTL, NITF, Espola, Husker?


Grace Karen omitted Outlaw, Sheriff Joe, Willie, Msk357, Fact, Lavey29, and nononono.  Why do you think that is?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> My original proposition was that you rarely see that graciousness from the left.  The folks I had in mind were not just colleagues back in law school, but those that I dealt with in the struggle for my kids school (yeah most of them were garbage human beings), and the lefties here.  Genuine question about your opinion of them.


I don't see this as a reply to me, (but I think it is?) and all I'm saying is that if you aren't surrounded by people who make your life better, why have them in your life?

ETA: The same goes for who are perceived to be on the far right. Like Outlaw for example- he was actually very helpful on a soccer post of mine. But it appeared we had vastly different views.

As far as the other leftie posters you referenced, a couple of them I am not real familiar with but the others, well- if they were "in" my life, and acting like crazies then no, we'd not be friendly. Could I be cordial? Sure, I'm an adult, (at least according to my age.)


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> My original proposition was that you rarely see that graciousness from the left.  The folks I had in mind were not just colleagues back in law school, but those that I dealt with in the struggle for my kids school (yeah most of them were garbage human beings), and the lefties here.  Genuine question about your opinion of them.


I have friends across the entire political spectrum who are completely decent human beings. I mean they wouldn't be my friends otherwise. Not once have I ever considered political ideologies when determining if someone is an asshole or not. To me it just seems weird to even think that way. 

Like I said earlier, I've muted a lot of folks here...because I don't care for their approach.  I love this feature.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> As far as the other leftie posters you referenced, a couple of them I am not real familiar with but the others, well- if they were "in" my life, and acting like crazies then no, we'd not be friendly. Could I be cordial? Sure, I'm an adult, (at least according to my age.)



Fewer and fewer people see it that way, which is a problem, but a credit to you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Are you  suggesting that I am of the left?


I forgot....you are a "conservative".


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Another example of graciousness and decency.  You rarely see that from those who are hard core left.


Thank you.  Although until very recently I was firmly to left-wing camp.  
Then a bunch of looters showed up and started smashing things here in NYC, and my sentient about democratic leadership started to evolve.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Thank you.  Although until very recently I was firmly to left-wing camp.
> Then a bunch of looters showed up and started smashing things here in NYC, and my sentient about democratic leadership started to evolve.


My story is very similar.  Salud to you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> right back at you.


Of course with trumpies the intellect level is usually on par with prepubescents. As evidenced by your rubber and glue style response.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Thank you.  Although until very recently I was firmly to left-wing camp.
> Then a bunch of looters showed up and started smashing things here in NYC, and my sentient about democratic leadership started to evolve.


“You can please some of the people some of the time . . .”


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You can please some of the people some of the time . . .”


You know my dd graduated college a couple years back, and I really intended on not posting anymore.  But then my annual premium membership auto renewed... so I figured this would be my last hurrah.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> My story is very similar.  Salud to you.


I really enjoy reading your posts Grace. I think you have real insights and I'm glad you on here sharing.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I forgot....you are a "conservative".


Did you feel that it was "lefty" to suggest that criminals should bear the consequences of their crimes?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Same opinion about EOTL, NITF, Espola, Husker?


The interesting thing about Grace Karen’s Nixonian enemies list is there’s only one person on it who’s gone “lowbrow magat”* on her, or done anything other than disagree with her. It says a lot about her.

* For purposes of this post, “lowbrow magat” is defined as “annoying, obnoxious and often mean spirited.” This is to be distinguished from “full magat”, which includes a willingness to beat a Capitol police officer to death with an American flag while participating an insurrection.  Also not included is “complicit magat”, defined as those who magat-splain away the important roles taken by the elected officials who incited it, propose letting them completely off the hook without legal consequences, and who claim that someone who was president six terms back is the one responsible.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Did you feel that it was "lefty" to suggest that criminals should bear the consequences of their crimes?


Oh the lefties are the first to push certain crimes like enhancing them if they are hate crimes, consumer fraud, civil rights violations, antitrust, and corporate management regulations.  I guess that makes me a communist because I think the US government now needs to come down on apple/google for colluding against parler.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> For sure, but Trump has given them a platform.  He's given them a reason to rise up.


Maybe - they've always had a platform, albeit not mainstream.  trump was easy and  permissive.  They hate him as much as anyone in government. They'll retreat back into the margins and shadows.  This will blow over in a few months and the government will get back to the business of being inefficient and spending money.  

These arrests that are happening right now are good.  They also provide comfort to many and that is good enough for some of our esteemed and hard working leaders in congress.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Republicans are starting come:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348147381519470597
My prediction is many more will follow suit.  Impeachment is feeling closer than ever.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh the lefties are the first to push certain crimes like enhancing them if they are hate crimes, consumer fraud, civil rights violations, antitrust, and corporate management regulations.  I guess that makes me a communist because I think the US government now needs to come down on apple/google for colluding against parler.


Alleged collusion  In all seriousness, I doubt it was a coordinated effort.  I think they all started to go "Oh shit, we can't have blood on our hands...we got to get out of here".


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah being sarcastic.  That video was reminiscent of scenes out of Fallujah.  I know, a bit of a stretch, but that crowd didn't give a rat's ass they were killing an officer just trying to do his job.


I get ya.  There is zero excuse and no quarter IAW the law should be given.  

It's unfortunate the officer didn't have protective gear on/available.  There were plenty of similar incidents over the summer where officers were attacked and would have been severely injured or killed if they didn't have gear.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I remember when Powell spoke at commencement at my university and the students protested him for being a bigot, a war monger, and a right wing fascist.  They tried to drown him out with jeers when he spoke.  If my current self could go back in time and tell my 21 year old self that it's not even close, she'd wouldn't believe me.  I wouldn't even tell her the censorship wasn't even close to what would happen.... she'd call me "cuckoo".


He still gets that reaction and always will.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> *trumpanzee*
> 
> The idea that he is too dumb to be accountable for his behavior is a poor argument.


Who is suggesting he shouldn't be held accountable? Dumb people should be held accountable.  You are propping him up on a pedestal.  The best way to combat an egomaniac is to downplay his ego while delivering punishment.  But you politico types prefer to drink lattes and say bad words.

And back to the trumpanzee thing - very racist of you.  But it's ok, in your world, trumpism is the great equalizer.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh the lefties are the first to push certain crimes like enhancing them if they are hate crimes, consumer fraud, civil rights violations, antitrust, and corporate management regulations.  I guess that makes me a communist because I think the US government now needs to come down on apple/google for colluding against parler.


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I get ya.  There is zero excuse and no quarter IAW the law should be given.
> 
> It's unfortunate the officer didn't have protective gear on/available.  There were plenty of similar incidents over the summer where officers were attacked and would have been severely injured or killed if they didn't have gear.


I know this is buzzfeed -- but probably some kernels of truth in this:









						These Black Capitol Police Officers Describe Fighting Off "Racist-Ass Terrorists"
					

Two Black officers told BuzzFeed News that their chief and other upper management left them totally unprepared and were nowhere to be found on the day.




					www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 10, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Who is suggesting he shouldn't be held accountable? Dumb people should be held accountable.  You are propping him up on a pedestal.  The best way to combat an egomaniac is to downplay his ego while delivering punishment.  But you politico types prefer to drink lattes and say bad words.
> 
> And back to the trumpanzee thing - very racist of you.  But it's ok, in your world, trumpism is the great equalizer.


Everyone here who believes he should not be impeached in order to appease magats. Who think he deserves a pension or any of the benefits of a former president. Everyone here who doesn’t want him and his family sued and criminally prosecuted into oblivion. Letting him have one second of respite, well, that what puts him on a pedestal. The only way this will ever end is to mock and humiliate him for the remainder of his life, and then his children’s, and then theirs. Bankruptcy, prison, constant lawsuits are the only way.

As for your interpretation of the phrase trumpanzee, you’re wrong about that and you know it. There’s zero racial element to it and the fact that there are pretty much three, well two after Herman Cain, black people who’ve provided their full throated support for the Bronze Baboon is nothing more than coincidence.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I know this is buzzfeed -- but probably some kernels of truth in this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's see what comes out of any investigation into the handling of the entire situation by the Capitol Police.

They turned down DOD assets, didn't secure the building, and did not have the correct internal assets available.  This protest had been planned for weeks. The significance of the day was known to all and every federal law enforcement agency was seeing/hearing the same chatter on multiple platforms. It doesn't pass the common sense test.  Something smells bad.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 10, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Everyone here who believes he should not be impeached in order to appease magats. Who think he deserves a pension or any of the benefits of a former president. Everyone here who doesn’t want him and his family sued and criminally prosecuted into oblivion. Letting him have one second of respite, well, that what puts him on a pedestal. The only way this will ever end is to mock and humiliate him for the remainder of his life, and then his children’s, and then theirs. Bankruptcy, prison, constant lawsuits are the only way.
> 
> *As for your interpretation of the phrase trumpanzee, you’re wrong about that and you know it. There’s zero racial element to it and the fact that there are pretty much three, well two after Herman Cain, black people who’ve provided their full throated support for the Bronze Baboon is nothing more than coincidence.*


I get it, you hate trump - your choice, free country, continue to froth over the idea - doesn't bother me.  He will get what he deserves.

Part dos of your statement is utter BS.  There are more than 3  black trump supporters in this country.  Your little world consists of  your  keyboard and the usual social media platforms.  Go ahead and pivot on your backfoot and tell me what I should think.  It's a racist term.  Tell you what, walk down the street, in your hood or another hood, find a black man or woman who supports trump, and call them a trumpanzee.  Tell me exactly what them black folk do.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 10, 2021)

This is pretty funny:









						San Francisco police are prepping for a pro-Trump rally at Twitter headquarters
					

San Francisco police are preparing for a pro-Trump protest at Twitter’s headquarters, a building which has been essentially abandoned since the start of the pandemic last year, with most Twitter employees working remotely. The potential protest comes days after Twitter banned the president from...




					techcrunch.com
				




Nobody is even there....all of Tech is working remotely right now. I guess Twitter employees will watch the protest on the news.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> This is pretty funny:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A friend and I were just talking about this. This is fairly close to some pretty hardcore areas, (meaning- within driving distance for a lot of places.) This could become a crazy situation.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 10, 2021)




----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 10, 2021)

Months Ago, Democrats Blocked a Resolution Condemning Mob Violence
					

They also shut down a bill which would have given rioters longer prison sentences this summer and cracked down on political violence.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 9911


Who is Mike Yoder that you accept his statements so uncritically?


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Months Ago, Democrats Blocked a Resolution Condemning Mob Violence
> 
> 
> They also shut down a bill which would have given rioters longer prison sentences this summer and cracked down on political violence.
> ...


...because the resolution sponsor would not include any criticism of Trump.  Look how that worked out.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 9911


I think any common sense person would condemn this as well. Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone say that any bombing is ok. I chalk this up to an extremist position too. She does not represent the majority of Dems.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I think any common sense person would condemn this as well. Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone say that any bombing is ok. I chalk this up to an extremist position too. She does not represent the majority of Dems.


Did you check the facts on this?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Did you check the facts on this?


I know it happened- but what other facts do I need to check? All I'm saying is bombing is wrong- how is that debatable? I'm not touching anything else. You can debate the granular, feel free.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I know it happened- but what other facts do I need to check? All I'm saying is bombing is wrong- how is that debatable? I'm not touching anything else. You can debate the granular, feel free.


The bombing is a fact, however no evidence was ever presented that she "planted the bomb".  She was arrested two years later on a separate charge of possession of weapons and explosives.


----------



## espola (Jan 10, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I know it happened- but what other facts do I need to check? All I'm saying is bombing is wrong- how is that debatable? I'm not touching anything else. You can debate the granular, feel free.


2.  How would a bomb be planted to specifically "assassinate Republican Senators"?  

3.  She was pardoned after serving 16 years for a crime for which the average sentence for first-time offenders was 5 years.

4.  I could find no such entity as Black Lives Matter Network, Inc.  The closest might be Black Lives Matter Global Network, a charitable corporation that seems to be the overall governing body of local BLM chapters.

5.  Ms. Rosenberg is a board member of a different non-profit, Thousand Currents, a highly rated charity (4 out of 4 stars from Charity Navigator).  TC was contracted by BLMGN to handle their fundraising activities since they grew so rapidly this year and were overwhelmed with the regulatory paperwork.

Mike Yoder purports to be a lawyer, so one might suppose he is interested in fine details like those.  I will not propose an opinion on why he was so sloppy on that tweet.









						Charity Navigator - Rating for Thousand Currents
					

Thousand Currents has earned a 4/4 Star rating on Charity Navigator. This Charitable Organization is headquartered in San Francisco, CA.



					www.charitynavigator.org


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I get it, you hate trump - your choice, free country, continue to froth over the idea - doesn't bother me.  He will get what he deserves.
> 
> Part dos of your statement is utter BS.  There are more than 3  black trump supporters in this country.  Your little world consists of  your  keyboard and the usual social media platforms.  Go ahead and pivot on your backfoot and tell me what I should think.  It's a racist term.  Tell you what, walk down the street, in your hood or another hood, find a black man or woman who supports trump, and call them a trumpanzee.  Tell me exactly what them black folk do.


Ok, maybe there are six or seven. If I single one out because they are black, I’ll make sure to use a different term because, otherwise, that would be wrong.

Enjoy the impeachment process! I can’t wait for Karen Grace to start posting how holding people accountable for sedition and insurrection is worse than the sedition itself. Today is such a dark day in America for Mrs. Neville Chamberlain and the rest of her appeaser friends.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 9911


Whataboutism. But if all the magats and their shit for brains and in his pants leader similarly each spend 16 years in prison, I’m ok with that.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Yet another reason Grace Karen is so wrong in her full-throated support of appeasement is that there will be no more obstruction now that Dems control both the House and Senate. No more opposition to subpoenas for docs to the WH or executive branches, virtually every ‘publican in office will need to keep their head down, and there will be plenty of people chomping at the bit to testify against the patina piece of s**t.  Tech companies will be thrilled to taking down the patina-ed piece of shit and his mostly toothless, unemployed loser followers, and guess who’s got all the Parler dms for Nunes, Clarence the magat Thomas’ wife, coke fiend Donny boy jr, Hawley, Pompeo, all of those traitors?  That would be Jeff Bezos.

There will be a constant drip, drip, drip of new awful information every day to embarrass and humiliate ‘publicans. It will destroy the re-election chances of one trumpanzee after the next.  And when Donny Depends pardons himself and his family, they can’t even rely on the 5th anymore. This is going to be great.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Yet another reason Grace Karen is so wrong in her full-throated support of appeasement is that there will be no more obstruction now that Dems control both the House and Senate. No more opposition to subpoenas for docs to the WH or executive branches, virtually every ‘publican in office will need to keep their head down, and there will be plenty of people chomping at the bit to testify against the patina piece of s**t.  Tech companies will be thrilled to taking down the patina-ed piece of shit and his mostly toothless, unemployed loser followers, and guess who’s got all the Parler dms for Nunes, Clarence the magat Thomas’ wife, coke fiend Donny boy jr, Hawley, Pompeo, all of those traitors?  That would be Jeff Bezos.
> 
> There will be a constant drip, drip, drip of new awful information every day to embarrass and humiliate ‘publicans. It will destroy the re-election chances of one trumpanzee after the next.  And when Donny Depends pardons himself and his family, they can’t even rely on the 5th anymore. This is going to be great.


Did you just have a juice box?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

This is going to be wild:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/comments/kuqvs3/_/giu04o6

The parler folks were in way over their heads.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

This video has also been making its way around:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347336476451872769
Corey is pretty funny normally though...


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

The D's have moved from just censuring the House ringleaders challenging the election results to actively seeking their expulsion.  They only need a majority to do it, but will weaponize the expulsion process.  A. several African American congressmen challenged the 2016 election and are currently serving in Congress...they lacked Senate support so it didn't go anywhere...but for the record this idea of challenging election results in Congress we don't like was originally a D fringe idea.  B. it's undemocratic...seeking to overturn the will of the voters in those congressional districts, and C. does anybody doubt in 2022 if the Rs take the House (they only need a handful of votes) and Nancy Pelosi is still around that the Rs won't retaliate by expelling her.  The Republic's election system is already creeking close to breaking and now they want to do this.  We spent the spring and summer normalizing political violence and it was that normalization (as much as Trump's awful behavior) that made the takeover of the Capitol a possibility.  If people feel elections are no longer working and the majority party can expel those of the minority they think have gone over the line, it's a bad combination with the normalization of political violence.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The D's have moved from just censuring the House ringleaders challenging the election results to actively seeking their expulsion.  They only need a majority to do it, but will weaponize the expulsion process.


Dear Ms. Constitutional Lawyer --

Guess where I got this from --

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The D's have moved from just censuring the House ringleaders challenging the election results to actively seeking their expulsion.  They only need a majority to do it, but will weaponize the expulsion process.  A. several African American congressmen challenged the 2016 election and are currently serving in Congress...they lacked Senate support so it didn't go anywhere...but for the record this idea of challenging election results in Congress we don't like was originally a D fringe idea.  B. it's undemocratic...seeking to overturn the will of the voters in those congressional districts, and C. does anybody doubt in 2022 if the Rs take the House (they only need a handful of votes) and Nancy Pelosi is still around that the Rs won't retaliate by expelling her.  The Republic's election system is already creeking close to breaking and now they want to do this.  We spent the spring and summer normalizing political violence and it was that normalization (as much as Trump's awful behavior) that made the takeover of the Capitol a possibility.  If people feel elections are no longer working and the majority party can expel those of the minority they think have gone over the line, it's a bad combination with the normalization of political violence.


I don't expect the Dems to do anything controversial as that's their MO. They're all bark no bite. 

I don't think Dems ever intended to use the objection process as a method to overturn an election result. I don't think that was the case with the repubs on 1/6. Most of the times Dems have objected is to highlight voter suppression, which is a real thing -- as opposed to this bogus narrative Trump put together. Anyway, more here:









						Objecting To Electoral Votes In Congress Recalls Bitter Moments In History
					

Vice President Pence is far from being the first vice president caught in an awkward position when presiding over the counting of electoral votes and being obligated to announce his own defeat.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

the D's knives out continue.  The NY Bar now has begun an inquiry to disbar Rudy Guiliani

The D's have filed impeachment articles (vote Wednesday, earliest they can be taken up by the Senate is the day before the inauguration but Ds still talking about maybe filing after first 100 days) on the grounds on inciting an insurrection (they have the obvious problem there that Trump did not command his people to engage in violence of seize the Capitol, and he told them to go home...which leads to the curious question that (if they cared) how the Ds are going to make this case).


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The D's have moved from just censuring the House ringleaders challenging the election results to actively seeking their expulsion.  They only need a majority to do it, but will weaponize the expulsion process.  A. several African American congressmen challenged the 2016 election and are currently serving in Congress...they lacked Senate support so it didn't go anywhere...but for the record this idea of challenging election results in Congress we don't like was originally a D fringe idea.  B. it's undemocratic...seeking to overturn the will of the voters in those congressional districts, and C. does anybody doubt in 2022 if the Rs take the House (they only need a handful of votes) and Nancy Pelosi is still around that the Rs won't retaliate by expelling her.  The Republic's election system is already creeking close to breaking and now they want to do this.  We spent the spring and summer normalizing political violence and it was that normalization (as much as Trump's awful behavior) that made the takeover of the Capitol a possibility.  If people feel elections are no longer working and the majority party can expel those of the minority they think have gone over the line, it's a bad combination with the normalization of political violence.


Like clockwork, Ms. Appeaser is back and whatabout-ing in defense of seditionists.  

Claiming this the fault of black people is especially f**ked up. Do you know why they made legitimate objections to the election results in 2016?  For the exact same obstructionist, threatening dis-enfranchising racist bs that Grace Karen and her magat friends love so much and tried again this time, only it didn’t work. 

Don’t let the Frau Grace of the OC fool you. All she is doing is rationalizing fraud, racism and insurrection because real Americans fight it.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Dear Ms. Constitutional Lawyer --
> 
> Guess where I got this from --
> 
> "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


Given how much she detests the 1st Amendment, are you the least bit surprised?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think Dems ever intended to use the objection process as a method to overturn an election result. I don't think that was the case with the repubs on 1/6. Most of the times Dems have objected is to highlight voter suppression, which is a real thing -- as opposed to this bogus narrative Trump put together. Anyway, more here:


You can say the thing then with the Rs since voter fraud is also a thing.  There's plenty of recorded cases of suspected dead people voting or felons or noncitizens voting.  The issue for Trump was that there's no proof it was in the numbers necessary to make a difference in the elections.  The Ds have the same problem with voter suppression in the 2016 elections...there's no proof voter suppression would have changed the outcome.  You can't condemn the conduct of one side, without condemning the conduct of the other side, without being nakedly partisan.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Dear Ms. Constitutional Lawyer --
> 
> Guess where I got this from --
> 
> "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


You are quite correct.  I was an error on the percent (see another example of graciousness which you don't tend to see from extremists on the left).  It's a majority for censure.

BTW, I've never claimed to be a Constitutional Lawyer and have said specifically it's not my forte....I know the basics.  Doubt we'll see the same graciousness from you.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You can say the thing then with the Rs since voter fraud is also a thing.  There's plenty of recorded cases of suspected dead people voting or felons or noncitizens voting.  The issue for Trump was that there's no proof it was in the numbers necessary to make a difference in the elections.  The Ds have the same problem with voter suppression in the 2016 elections...there's no proof voter suppression would have changed the outcome.  You can't condemn the conduct of one side, without condemning the conduct of the other side, without being nakedly partisan.


My point is the goal is different.  The Dems use it more for posturing -- and highlighting voter suppression.  The repubs actually wanted the election results overturned.  They're different.  Both Biden and Gore when they were VPs handled these situations with grace....as did Pence on 1/6.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Looks like Trump has an unlikely supporter:









						Germany's Merkel hits out at Twitter over 'problematic' Trump ban
					

German Chancellor Angela Merkel blasted Twitter's decision to ban U.S. President Donald Trump.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> My point is the goal is different.  The Dems use it more for posturing -- and highlighting voter suppression.  The repubs actually wanted the election results overturned.  They're different.  Both Biden and Gore when they were VPs handled these situations with grace....as did Pence on 1/6.


They knew going in they didn't have the votes (and if they did have the votes or they were reasonably close the mob wouldn't have stormed the Capitol).  It was all for show, which is why the President was trying to pressure the Vice-President to act unconstitionally (which would be a far more solid foundation on which to impeach, but it would require the cooperation of Pence).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Looks like Trump has an unlikely supporter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, unlikely...the fact that the Europeans and Mexicans can see the danger of this should tell us how far gone some on the left are that they can't (and yes, I hold the Trumpkins to the same standard for their thought they could get a court or congress or the VP or a coup to overturn a democratic election).  Both sides in the US have gone insane.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the D's knives out continue.  The NY Bar now has begun an inquiry to disbar Rudy Guiliani
> 
> The D's have filed impeachment articles (vote Wednesday, earliest they can be taken up by the Senate is the day before the inauguration but Ds still talking about maybe filing after first 100 days) on the grounds on inciting an insurrection (they have the obvious problem there that Trump did not command his people to engage in violence of seize the Capitol, and he told them to go home...which leads to the curious question that (if they cared) how the Ds are going to make this case).


The D's are overreaching again. They are what they accuse the R's of...ie breaking norms, being dictatorial, taking away rights, etc. 

If it were not so sad, I get a kick out of the jungle primary system in CA. The end result is you have races in the general where the voters get to pick between 2 Dems. Stalin is mad he didn't think of creating a system like that were you could either vote for him or vote for him. Great concept. 

Restrictions on free speech? Over the past decade or more these come largely from the left...either in actual rules (campuses for instance) or proposals. 

The fact that so many on the left applaud pushing conservatives off Twitter, FB, Instagram etc. Terrible precedent and thought process. 

When the said conservatives say ok we go to Parler, then they attempt to de-platform Parler. Not good. 

Ideas today are mainly discussed/propagated through Social media. The fact that one line of thought can just be shut down is very chilling. Youtube is taking down videos questioning the election results. And yet 10s of thousands of vids can be seen questioning 2016 and the debunked Russian angle. Etc, etc. 

What the Congress is trying to do both with another impeachment and talking about kicking out members is rather shall we say authoritarian. Those very same Ds talking about this, have for the past 4 yrs talked about T being illegitimate. Remember the Bernie Bro shooting up the House softball game and targeting Rs? Steve Scalise? Rand Paul getting attacked? By the Ds own standard today, they themselves should be held to account right? But of course they are not. They passively and actively encouraged the summer riots. Today they are now all about law an order? Please. 

And it goes on. 

Not a good thing.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Gore when they were VPs handled these situations with grace...


Gore didn't handle it with grace in 2000. Far from it. 

He wanted to pick and choose what counties in FL to use a certain standard (the one he liked) while leaving the rest of the counties to use a different standard as just one main example. 

And even after it was decided he was not gracious in the years after. Nor was the Dem party.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

I just find this very disturbing. Political thought is starting to be suppressed online. 

"Parler, which emerged as a Twitter alternative for conservatives, officially went offline on Monday after Amazon Web Services refused to host the site any longer. Following the Capitol riots on Wednesday, Apple and Google removed Parler from their app stores, claiming the site had refused to take down posts inciting violence. On Saturday, Amazon announced it would follow suit after employees pressured the company to remove Parler.



Parler saved its data and prepared to switch to a different provider, but on Monday, Parler CEO John Matze announced the process would take longer than expected.

“I wanted to send everyone on Parler an update,” Matze posted. “WE will likely be down longer than expected. This is not due to software restrictions—we have our software and everyone’s data ready to go. Rather it’s that Amazon’s, Google’s, and Apple’s statements to the press about dropping our access has caused most of our other vendors to drop their support for us as well.”


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Yup going to get ugly:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kv2qt2/_/givoiqp


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> My point is the goal is different.  The Dems use it more for posturing -- and highlighting voter suppression.  The repubs actually wanted the election results overturned.  They're different.  Both Biden and Gore when they were VPs handled these situations with grace....as did Pence on 1/6.


In 2016, the “black people” Karen Grace claims started this objected for the purpose of *opposing* racism in the election process. In 2020, ‘publicans objected for the purpose of *preserving* it after their years of efforts finally stopped working for the whiny losers AND ALSO because they knew that objecting would contribute to efforts to overthrow the government of the United States by their trumpanzee buddies who were storming the Capitol at that very moment. If the black people that Frau Karen Grace blames for the insurrection four years later had an angry mob on the doorstep at the time and Obama had been inciting that mob by claiming ‘publicans had stolen the election, and literally walked them up to the doorsteps, then yes it would be a similar situation. Instead, she’s just making false equivalencies in defense of the immoral, racist, magats that those black house members were opposing both then and now.

The danger of people like Frau Appraser lady is they don’t care about right and wrong.  Rather, they hide behind false equivalencies and “process” to tear down the appropriate, lawful and moral use of mechanisms to preserve our democracy by pointing to instances in which the side they are defending it has used those processed improperly and immorally. But that’s what ‘publicans do, what they have always done, and will always do. Until they stop pointing to the appropriate and moral use of legal processes to justify their inappropriate immoral use of those processes, they need to pay. People like Frau Karen will never, ever admit they were wrong.  Even her fake apology above minimizes the incredibly important difference between the 2/3 majority requirement, and then she turns around and trashes the people who are actually right gor pointing it out. So magaty passive aggressive. I recognized this in people like her, and co-opted their tactic, a long time ago. ScI have been saying, the only way to rid our country of their cancer is to go down into the muck where they live and stomp them there. Grace Karen will see the effectiveness of this method in short order now that the entire Dem party has learned what I learned many moons ago.  While President Biden smiles and takes the high ground in public, he will let the DOJ, the NY AG, the IRS, Congress and everyone else go get these bottom feeders where they are. Happy hunting Pelosi and friends!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I just find this very disturbing. Political thought is starting to be suppressed online.
> 
> "Parler, which emerged as a Twitter alternative for conservatives, officially went offline on Monday after Amazon Web Services refused to host the site any longer. Following the Capitol riots on Wednesday, Apple and Google removed Parler from their app stores, claiming the site had refused to take down posts inciting violence. On Saturday, Amazon announced it would follow suit after employees pressured the company to remove Parler.
> 
> ...


Dear Seditionists -

Welcome to the United States of America and its 1st Amendment and free market. If you wanted Parler to have a bigger, stronger presence, it would help if the ideas you value so much weren’t such s**t and actually had value. If you’ve got a problem with it, stop buying swag from Amazon and get a Nokia flip phone. Does Netscape still exist?  If so, you can use their search engine instead of Google. Oh, and I hope you aren’t a golf fan, ‘cuz the PGA squeezed all the juice out of the deranged orange.

In short, you can try to s**t on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights all you want, but good luck with that.  What’s your Parler handle anyway? Asking for a friend (at the DOJ).  Oh, never mind, they already know it.

Hugs and Kisses,

Nancy Pelosi

cc: Jeff Bezos


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are quite correct.  I was an error on the percent (see another example of graciousness which you don't tend to see from extremists on the left).  It's a majority for censure.
> 
> BTW, I've never claimed to be a Constitutional Lawyer and have said specifically it's not my forte....I know the basics.  Doubt we'll see the same graciousness from you.


You have just admitted that you don't know the basics.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> You have just admitted that you don't know the basics.


So no graciousness.  Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Yup going to get ugly:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kv2qt2/_/givoiqp


Bring it.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the D's knives out continue.  The NY Bar now has begun an inquiry to disbar Rudy Guiliani
> 
> The D's have filed impeachment articles (vote Wednesday, earliest they can be taken up by the Senate is the day before the inauguration but Ds still talking about maybe filing after first 100 days) on the grounds on inciting an insurrection (they have the obvious problem there that Trump did not command his people to engage in violence of seize the Capitol, and he told them to go home...which leads to the curious question that (if they cared) how the Ds are going to make this case).


Still advocating for your supposed clients?


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yes, unlikely...the fact that the Europeans and Mexicans can see the danger of this should tell us how far gone some on the left are that they can't (and yes, I hold the Trumpkins to the same standard for their thought they could get a court or congress or the VP or a coup to overturn a democratic election).  Both sides in the US have gone insane.


Nonsense.  The idea that crimes have consequences is not an insane thought.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Small biz should get equal access to aid if there is going to be any. 

It should not be distributed based on racial politics.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> So no graciousness.  Thanks for proving my point.


I graciously withheld obvious insults such as "lying buffoon", "ignorant tool of fascists", and "self-promoting nobody".


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Still advocating for your supposed clients?


I may be Mr. Magoo, but I see through you yeah.
(Stupid fool, old Magoo)
You got a way to suck me in
And then you spit me out again
I try to take it on the chin
But I bump into everything
You know the way to keep me blind
Diggin that silly old grin of mine


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> I graciously withheld obvious insults such as "lying buffoon", "ignorant tool of fascists", and "self-promoting nobody".


O.k. how about "Mr. Magoo", "stupid fool troll" and "crazy confused lefty idiot".


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Nonsense.  The idea that crimes have consequences is not an insane thought.


Cuckoo.  You are punishing a 3rd party ISP for the content of its users (not all of whom are Trumpkins and the President isn't even on the platform) at the same time the ISPs are arguing they should maintain their immunity and shouldn't be held accountable for the content of its users.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Small biz should get equal access to aid if there is going to be any.
> 
> It should not be distributed based on racial politics.
> 
> View attachment 9912


Agreed. What is the point of doing it this way?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Still advocating for your supposed clients?


Do you see how Frau Karen Grace completely ignores the substantive issue of whether Rudy *should be *disbarred?  Again, she ignores the substantive issue of right and wrong, and instead points straight to “process” to defend the side of wrong without coming out and saying it, because she knows she’s on the wrong side and is too chicken.  Instead, she takes a swipe at democratic institutions that are being used for the very purpose for which they exist.

Historically, this has been an effective tactic for ‘publicans. But Dems, the party in control of the executive and both houses of Congress, no longer give a f**k. They know it’s over for the magat party and have nothing to fear.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> O.k. how about "Mr. Magoo", "stupid fool troll" and "crazy confused lefty idiot".


I reiterate....despite being a 3x minority I have never been treated as badly by the righties as I have been by the lefties (including those that deny they are lefties, or deny they are extreme).


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> DOJ, the NY AG, the IRS, Congress and everyone else go get these bottom feeders where they are.


You put a lot of faith and confidence in government accomplishing stuff.  Our efficient and fearless government demonstrated  their capabilities last week with their awe inspiring defense of the capitol building.  But your words sound cool.

I will say that the NY AG office and the Southern District of New York can be rather efficient organizations


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Cuckoo.  You are punishing a 3rd party ISP for the content of its users (not all of whom are Trumpkins and the President isn't even on the platform) at the same time the ISPs are arguing they should maintain their immunity and shouldn't be held accountable for the content of its users.


Who is the “you” that you’re referring to? Are you saying @espola took down Parler?  Or maybe he’s in a deep state conspiracy that includes Jeff Bezos and Nancy Pelosi?

The plain and simple reality is that Frau Karen Grace detests the 1st Amendment and the free market. A private company exercised its  absolute legal, Constitutional and contractual right to stop working with a company that supports and helps facilitate domestic terrorism. For some reason that makes her very, very mad. Why is it that Karen Grace wants to coerce private citizens and companies to support terrorists and their enablers?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You put a lot of faith and confidence in government accomplishing stuff.  Our efficient and fearless government demonstrated  their capabilities last week with their awe inspiring defense of the capitol building.  But your words sound cool.
> 
> I will say that the NY AG office and the Southern District of New York can be rather efficient organizations


I guess we’ll see what happens when the executive branch is back in competent hands.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> O.k. how about "Mr. Magoo", "stupid fool troll" and "crazy confused lefty idiot".


Every astute reader here knows those are not true.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Cuckoo.  You are punishing a 3rd party ISP for the content of its users (not all of whom are Trumpkins and the President isn't even on the platform) at the same time the ISPs are arguing they should maintain their immunity and shouldn't be held accountable for the content of its users.


I will assume by "you" that you are referring to Amazon.  Amazon (a private company not in any way an arm of any government) made a business decision based on a customer's refusal to adhere to its conditions after repeated warnings.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Small biz should get equal access to aid if there is going to be any.
> 
> It should not be distributed based on racial politics.
> 
> View attachment 9912


that's an oxymoron, you don't make one or more groups a priority, assuming over other groups, and end up with "equal access". It makes no sense in any case - govt should providing resources (where needed) and removing barriers (which they exist) for all or any businesses so that they can reopen/rebuild.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348717246563160064


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I guess we’ll see what happens when the executive branch is back in competent hands.


maybe - your assessment is that the FBI, DHS, and other federal law enforcement agencies screwed the pooch because of trump and they will miraculously become more capable under biden?   Agency track records are pretty non partisan, screwing up big while operating under different admins.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348717246563160064


Bring it. We all knew it was going to take a higher magat body count than just the one woman at the Capitol. 

And go figure, noticeably absent from Karen Grace’s post is any indication that armed magats going to state capitol buildings is a bad idea. But I’m sure we are 20 seconds away from her blaming democrats for not appeasing terrorists.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Every astute reader here knows those are not true.


Another example of the dearth of imagination in the mind of a far right loon. Even their attempts at insults are as weak as circus punch.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> *Bring it*. We all knew it was going to take a higher magat body count than just the one woman at the Capitol.


You crack me up.. that's strong - Bring it.  Coming from someone who will have absolutely no role in combating what may or may not happen.

The FBI screwed the pooch big time but they know that this threat isn't  coming from your run of the mill trumper.  Run of the mill trumpers are not real threats (well, except maybe to you).  Far right  groups have the skill set to temporarily overwhelm run of the mill law enforcement, wreak havoc, and kill people.  They dislike government, doesn't matter who's in power.  During the summer, it was this type of group that assassinated an FPS officer and ambushed, killed a santa cruz deputy, injury others.  The details layout the skill sets these groups have.

The FBI knows better. Going against these groups requires resources.  Generally speaking, there isn't much appetite for direct confrontation with them.  We will see how the state governors react.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> maybe - your assessment is that the FBI, DHS, and other federal law enforcement agencies screwed the pooch because of trump and they will miraculously become more capable under biden?   Agency track records are pretty non partisan, screwing up big while operating under different admins.


You believe trump, obviously.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You believe trump, obviously.


What makes you think that? you don't know how to respond without being a political hack?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You crack me up.. that's strong - Bring it.  Coming from someone who will have absolutely no role in combating what may or may not happen.
> 
> The FBI screwed the pooch big time but they know that this threat isn't  coming from your run of the mill trumper.  Run of the mill trumpers are not real threats (well, except maybe to you).  Far right  groups have the skill set to temporarily overwhelm run of the mill law enforcement, wreak havoc, and kill people.  They dislike government, doesn't matter who's in power.  During the summer, it was this type of group that assassinated an FPS officer and ambushed, killed a santa cruz deputy, injury others.  The details layout the skill sets these groups have.
> 
> The FBI knows better. Going against these groups requires resources.  Generally speaking, there isn't much appetite for direct confrontation with them.  We will see how the state governors react.


Agree with you, and the fact that these groups have not been directly confronted on multiple occasions have given rise the the events on Wednesday, IMO. I would hope that this will now change. No group right/left/high/low etc. should be allowed to do as they wish, irrespective of how many guns they happen to have.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You believe trump, obviously.


Does your conspiracy theory include the idea that trump told multiple agencies to ignore intelligence and not plan appropriately for what should have been a slam dunk kind of a law enforcement day?  Maybe the Q types are so pervasive in government that they simply opened the door and allowed their brethren in.

Or maybe they were just  incompetent. Or confident in the measures they took.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Agree with you, and the fact that these groups have not been directly confronted on multiple occasions have given rise the the events on Wednesday, IMO. I would hope that this will now change. No group right/left/high/low etc. should be allowed to do as they wish, irrespective of how many guns they happen to have.


It's sticky and goes back decades.  Federal law enforcement has a bad track record of confrontation - Ruby Ridge, Waco, there are others.  This summer has certainly given rise to the idea of appeasement.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Every astute reader here knows those are not true.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> maybe - your assessment is that the FBI, DHS, and other federal law enforcement agencies screwed the pooch because of trump and they will miraculously become more capable under biden?   Agency track records are pretty non partisan, screwing up big while operating under different admins.


Are you seriously defending the failure of the least competent president in history and a republican controlled senate by claiming that maybe democrats in the future might also let the Capitol be overrun?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> It's sticky and goes back decades.  Federal law enforcement has a bad track record of confrontation - Ruby Ridge, Waco, there are others.  This summer has certainly given rise to the idea of appeasement.


Appeasement doesn't work. History shows it.

The Bundy standoff in 2014 was hailed as a victory for the extreme militia. The Oregon standoff in 2016 was also.

The more extreme militias are getting bolder and bolder.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> "Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


"Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government"

Have you found a source for that yet?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> You crack me up.. that's strong - Bring it.  Coming from someone who will have absolutely no role in combating what may or may not happen.
> 
> The FBI screwed the pooch big time but they know that this threat isn't  coming from your run of the mill trumper.  Run of the mill trumpers are not real threats (well, except maybe to you).  Far right  groups have the skill set to temporarily overwhelm run of the mill law enforcement, wreak havoc, and kill people.  They dislike government, doesn't matter who's in power.  During the summer, it was this type of group that assassinated an FPS officer and ambushed, killed a santa cruz deputy, injury others.  The details layout the skill sets these groups have.
> 
> The FBI knows better. Going against these groups requires resources.  Generally speaking, there isn't much appetite for direct confrontation with them.  We will see how the state governors react.


Sure coward. Let’s just let them hold out country hostage.  

The only option is to root them out. There’s a decent chance we’ll be rid of a few of them on the 20th. And we’ve got years to pick them off one at a time as they hide, and s**tbags. like Bundy aren’t getting any more pardons.  Ultimately, the best possible thing that can happen for the U.S. is for them to make martyrs out of more patriots like the Capitol police officer they beat to death with the American flag.  Keep in mind that the lack of sympathy among the magats and appeasers here like Grace Karen is not indicative of America as a whole. There’s no better way to affect public sentiment. This is what you ‘publicans created, now do something other than appease and defend the frankenstein monster you created. 

Remember “When the looting starts, the shooting starts”. It would be nice if the trumpanzees had brains and the worst of the bunch weren’t brainwashed traitors willing to murder people over lies about the election being stolen.  It would also be helpful if the less egregious magats stopped being apologists. The mere fact that you and your complicit apologist friends keep defending them needs to change, and the only chance of that happening is if the worst of your kind murder enough people you care about for you to do something other than defend them.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Appeasement doesn't work. History shows it.
> 
> The Bundy standoff in 2014 was hailed as a victory for the extreme militia. The Oregon standoff in 2016 was also.
> 
> The more extreme militias are getting bolder and bolder.


The weakness shown in the Bundy Nevada standoff led to the Bundy Oregon standoff.  That's what appeasement buys you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> "Antifa btw has called for the violent overthrow of the us government"
> 
> Have you found a source for that yet?


"Alpha Beta Gamma Rho, let's go Rutgers, go go go!"


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Sure coward. Let’s just let them hold out country hostage.
> 
> The only option is to root them out. There’s a decent chance we’ll be rid of a few of them on the 20th. And we’ve got years to pick them off one at a time as they hide, and s**tbags. like Bundy aren’t getting any more pardons.  Ultimately, the best possible thing that can happen for the U.S. is for them to make martyrs out of more patriots like the Capitol police officer they beat to death with the American flag.  Keep in mind that the lack of sympathy among the magats and appeasers here like Grace Karen is not indicative of America as a whole. There’s no better way to affect public sentiment. This is what you ‘publicans created, now do something other than appease and defend the frankenstein monster you created.
> 
> Remember “When the looting starts, the shooting starts”. It would be nice if the trumpanzees had brains and the worst of the bunch weren’t brainwashed traitors willing to murder people over lies about the election being stolen.  It would also be helpful if the less egregious magats stopped being apologists. The mere fact that you and your complicit apologist friends keep defending them needs to change, and the only chance of that happening is if the worst of your kind murder enough people you care about for you to do something other than defend them.


Why are your posts such white noise! You say absolutely nothing about everything.  I'm beginning to think you are a bot, typing on a loop.  

I agree with the idea that such groups need to be rooted out.  What I'm also telling you is the track record for doing it is bad.  Stay mounted on your mini horse though, ride high in the stirrups, keep your tiny shield and tiny lance straight.  You can continue to think that the incoming administration is going to go on a crusade against far right wing groups.  I wish they would - they won't.  They'll get on with the business of running the country.    It's likely that on FEB 1st, you will still be on here frothing at the mouth spewing your nonsense (along with others, on the opposite side of the fence from you).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

Facebook is now moving up the Republican hierarchy, now limiting Ron Paul......they haven't taken on any of the big politicos (e.g., Rand Paul, Cruz, Hawley) or any of the big talking heads (e.g., Shapiro, Ingraham,  Hannity, Carlson) yet.









						Ron Paul says he’s blocked from managing his Facebook page
					

Former Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) on Monday announced that Facebook has prevented him from managing his page, part of the latest wave of suspensions affecting many conservatives on social media sites, most notably President Donald Trump. “With no explanation other than ‘repeatedly going against...




					saraacarter.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Appeasement doesn't work. History shows it.
> 
> The Bundy standoff in 2014 was hailed as a victory for the extreme militia. The Oregon standoff in 2016 was also.
> 
> The more extreme militias are getting bolder and bolder.


They are patient - Let's not forget Oklahoma City.   The Michigan Militia has been untouched since the bombing.  Zero appetite in the federal government to be pre-emptive and strategic.  Always reactive.  We will be reactive again in the upcoming weeks - It will look cool and likely be effective  in deterrence(NG troops with riot gear and empty rifles) but will not address things long term.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> What makes you think that? you don't know how to respond without being a political hack?


Who told you to distrust the FBI, DHS and other federal law enforcement agencies? Who told you they were failing?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Does your conspiracy theory include the idea that trump told multiple agencies to ignore intelligence and not plan appropriately for what should have been a slam dunk kind of a law enforcement day?  Maybe the Q types are so pervasive in government that they simply opened the door and allowed their brethren in.
> 
> Or maybe they were just  incompetent. Or confident in the measures they took.


Why were the Capital police denied help from the National Guard after being asked 6 times?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who told you to distrust the FBI, DHS and other federal law enforcement agencies? Who told you they were failing?


Point to where they've been successful?  You can start by identifying great  successes during the Clinton and Bush admins.  Your nose is so far up trumps bunghole that you fail to see anything.  

Your woke attempt to typecast people is humorous and entertaining.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> They are patient - Let's not forget Oklahoma City.   The Michigan Militia has been untouched since the bombing.  Zero appetite in the federal government to be pre-emptive and strategic.  Always reactive.  We will be reactive again in the upcoming weeks - It will look cool and likely be effective  in deterrence(NG troops with riot gear and empty rifles) but will not address things long term.


Agree, and the MI militia was on full display in recent months.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Why were the Capital police denied help from the National Guard after being asked 6 times?


I don't know, maybe you can ask the The Honorable Paul D. Irving , the Sergeant at Arms of the U.S. House of Representatives.  He's the one who denied the request.  Is he a trump cronie?  Or is he "big" government?  But research a bit, you'll see how confused everyone was, no one wanting to take charge.  As usual, they are now in react mode.  Go government.

The fiasco provides a great view how multiple agencies failed.  DC is  a complex web of letter agencies, all that can ask for DOD help.  Takes a minute to mobilize NG troops, they aren't "just available".  The DC police had some, the capitol police had requested some.  It's kinda like Oprah giving out stuff on her show.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Facebook is now moving up the Republican hierarchy, now limiting Ron Paul......they haven't taken on any of the big politicos (e.g., Rand Paul, Cruz, Hawley) or any of the big talking heads (e.g., Shapiro, Ingraham,  Hannity, Carlson) yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is simply unacceptable. The fact that Dems are not standing up to say no is disturbing. They want speech they disagree with silenced.

At some point the other side will be in charge. A couple of years, decades, multi decades or more. The standard HAS to be you don't shut down opposing voices. It is unacceptable to see what we are seeing NOW and to be honest what we have seen happen more and more over the past 4-6 months. 

As someone pointed out.....


_"And before any liberals see this and try to raise the tired old objection about how Trump (or anyone else) can simply go elsewhere to make their voice hear, unless you’re completely daft you know that’s dishonest. *There is no comparable platform to Twitter in terms of global reach in real-time. *When somebody tries to start one (*cough* Parler *cough*) Big Tech rallies their massive muscle to shut them down. And even if they don’t succeed, *no other platform in that arena has grown to even a fraction of a percent of the volume the giants have.*

So Angela Merkel is pretty much on point here. I rarely get the opportunity to sing her praises, but she was willing to stand up for the value of free speech, even when the speech is coming from someone she clearly despises and has frequently used it to target her. Well done, Madam Chancellor. I am honestly impressed."_


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha, Magat insurrectionists can’t get home because they’re being put on do-not-fly list.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348401288065601538





EOTL said:


> There is a difference between tp-ing a neighborhood and beating a police officer to death while overrunning the U.S. Capitol in support of an insurrection.  In fact, there is no appropriate “analogy” to a coup.


LOL...play STUPID games, win STUPID prizes.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I don't know, maybe you can ask the The Honorable Paul D. Irving , the Sergeant at Arms of the U.S. House of Representatives.  He's the one who denied the request.  Is he a trump cronie?  Or is he "big" government?  But research a bit, you'll see how confused everyone was, no one wanting to take charge.  As usual, they are now in react mode.  Go government.
> 
> The fiasco provides a great view how multiple agencies failed.  DC is  a complex web of letter agencies, all that can ask for DOD help.  Takes a minute to mobilize NG troops, they aren't "just available".  The DC police had some, the capitol police had requested some.  It's kinda like Oprah giving out stuff on her show.


Both of them did I read somewhere - and they have both now resigned, along with the head of the Capitol Police. It is bizarre that it took hours to "protect" Congress. I expect Congress will resolve that pretty quickly, now that they were personally put in danger.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha, Magat insurrectionists can’t get home because they’re being put on do-not-fly list.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348401288065601538


I also heard a TV news report of some passengers on a DC to Seattle flight who were rowdily chanting MAGA slogans and abusing the flight attendants who were trying to quiet them down.  After the flight, they were taken aside and told that they were banned from that airline for life.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> This is simply unacceptable. The fact that Dems are not standing up to say no is disturbing. They want speech they disagree with silenced.
> 
> At some point the other side will be in charge. A couple of years, decades, multi decades or more. The standard HAS to be you don't shut down opposing voices. It is unacceptable to see what we are seeing NOW and to be honest what we have seen happen more and more over the past 4-6 months.
> 
> ...


Censorship is certainly wrong. I agree that the Dems should be asking Qs about this also.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841


The fact that he isn't getting organic food is a travesty.

I for one LOVE paying more money for food labeled as organic. I get to wink and nod and virtue signal to the other shoppers in line at Walmart...eh hem ... I mean AJ's Fine Foods or Sprouts.

I have done the taste tests. Cannot tell the difference when it is a blind test. But when they show me which is which at that point I do know which is healthier and tastier.

Anyway "Set him free or give him organic food!".

I think that may be the modern version of "Give me liberty or give me death!"

I will make a prediction here and now though. Bank on seeing that outfit this coming Halloween. Not sold at stores of course. But we have enough creative spirits out there that can create their own version of the "Buffalo Man".


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841











						Please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rainwater...
					

Dr Strangelove clip with quote Please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rainwater...     Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote.     Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share.     Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.




					getyarn.io


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841


I didn't bother reading the article, but here are more photos of the "Buffalo Man" at different points in his life.









						'QAnon Shaman' is a 33-year-old failed actor who lives with his mom
					

33-year-old Jacob Angeli Chansley is one of the MAGA rioters wanted by DC police for his part in storming the Capitol building on Wednesday.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The fact that he isn't getting organic food is a travesty.
> 
> I for one LOVE paying more money for food labeled as organic. I get to wink and nod and virtue signal to the other shoppers in line at Walmart...eh hem ... I mean AJ's Fine Foods or Sprouts.
> 
> ...


Apparently all is not lost.

"The judge said that was “deeply concerning” and ordered Chansley’s public defender to work with U.S. Marshals on the dietary concerns."

I can sleep better now.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Newss report -- Ivanka plans to attend the inauguration ceremony even though Daddy won't.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Both of them did I read somewhere - and they have both now resigned, along with the head of the Capitol Police. It is bizarre that it took hours to "protect" Congress. I expect Congress will resolve that pretty quickly, now that they were personally put in danger.


DC is a finicky place when it comes to deploying DOD assets.  NG troops were in the city, supporting DC police at traffic control points.  Since that's the criteria they were activated under, those troops couldn't  pivot to the capitol to conduct law enforcement activities.  It sounds silly but it's the way it is.  They eventually made their way over to the capitol building.

Goes right back to the incompetence and lack of judgement on capitol hill.  The irony is that the direct order for activation for more troops to the capital likely came from trump. In reality, it's likely the president authorized the call up days before.  Oh, the plot thickens for the conspiracy theory chuckleheads.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> DC is a finicky place when it comes to deploying DOD assets.  NG troops were in the city, supporting DC police at traffic control points.  Since that's the criteria they were activated under, those troops couldn't  pivot to the capitol to conduct law enforcement activities.  It sounds silly but it's the way it is.  They eventually made their way over to the capitol building.
> 
> Goes right back to the incompetence and lack of judgement on capitol hill.  The irony is that the direct order for activation for more troops to the capital likely came from trump. In reality, it's likely the president authorized the call up days before.  Oh, the plot thickens for the conspiracy theory chuckleheads.


Likely?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Newss report -- Ivanka plans to attend the inauguration ceremony even though Daddy won't.


people are going to have a fit, what a travesty.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Likely?


*such as well might happen or be true; probable. *


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I didn't bother reading the article, but here are more photos of the "Buffalo Man" at different points in his life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The media will be quite triggered by this bonehead over the next few days.  I figure veins will burst and blood pressure medication consumption will increase.


----------



## watfly (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841


Of course he's from Arizona 

On a serious note, check out Brett Baier's interview today with Senator Manchin.  Among other things he talks about why impeachment is a waste of time and energy.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Agree, and the MI militia was on full display in recent months.


This was the MI militia, never understood how they could do this - the rest is perspective I suppose


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348477766690172929


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Point to where they've been successful?  You can start by identifying great  successes during the Clinton and Bush admins.  Your nose is so far up trumps bunghole that you fail to see anything.
> 
> Your woke attempt to typecast people is humorous and entertaining.


The trump coup failed. He and his cronies revved up a crowd already hopped up on lies and people died. “Hang ‘em and hang ‘em high!”


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> OMG. Twitter has the nuclear codes!


They don't need them when they control what is being said and can dial these people up/down or whatever - from the article

_"But it also reveals some of the hidden corporate hand behind what is said and discussed on talk-radio programs. Rather than advocating a medium of freethinking individuals expressing passionately held beliefs, the memo reminds that hosts are subject to corporate mandates and control. "_

And no, this isn't the Big Tech censoring Conservatives.

_Cumulus Media orders conservative radio hosts to temper election fraud rhetoric - The Washington Post _


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

I find it fascinating how Trump was able to bring all of the following together:

- Conspiracy Theorists / QAnon
- Religious Right
- Militias
- White Nationalists / Supremacists / Alt-Right
- Anti Democrats / Progressives

It's quite the melting pot.


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> *such as well might happen or be true; probable. *


I know what the word means.   You are likely incorrect.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I find it fascinating how Trump was able to bring all of the following together:
> 
> - Conspiracy Theorists / QAnon
> - Religious Right
> ...


Trump also increased his share of minority voters relative to 2016 so quite a melting pot indeed.  He lost because his share of white voters (mostly in the suburbs) dropped.









						Donald Trump increases his share of Black, Latino voters: Election exit poll
					

The president has boosted his share of the Black vote by 4 points since the 2016 election.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump also increased his share of minority voters relative to 2016 so quite a melting pot indeed.  He lost because his share of white voters (mostly in the suburbs) dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Curious if those minorities fell into one of those categories.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348740338827939841


He wants his mommy’s cooking!


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

Crimes have consequences --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348597983428960257


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The trump coup failed. He and his cronies revved up a crowd already hopped up on lies and people died. “Hang ‘em and hang ‘em high!”


 - another bot that refuses to engage in meaningful discussion. Must be sharing bunk beds with you know who..


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> I know what the word means.   You are likely incorrect.


Splain to me how calling up the DC national guard works..


----------



## espola (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Splain to me how calling up the DC national guard works..


Splain to me your use of the word "likely".


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

espola said:


> Splain to me your use of the word "likely".


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> - another bot that refuses to engage in meaningful discussion. Must be sharing bunk beds with you know who..


No reason to get all mean just because you disagree with them.  

I know you don’t like hearing people accurately predict that McFrumpy McS**t is going to get impeached again. I know you certainly didn’t like me explaining to you and Heil Karen Grace what was going to happen to Parler before it did, I know you don’t like hearing that getting upset about Parler getting what it deserves means you hate the 1st Amendment and free enterprise, which makes you un-American. I know you don’t want to hear that appeasement is not going to happen and that these s**tbags are going to pay. I’m sure you would prefer that Karen Grace the Appeaser weren’t always wrong about everything. Too bad. Maybe at some point you’ll wake up and see what is actually happening around you and why.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I find it fascinating how Trump was able to bring all of the following together:
> 
> - Conspiracy Theorists / QAnon
> - Religious Right
> ...


Militias aren't pro trump, they are antigovernment.  The hysteria that trump creates provides them space to operate more feely.  Same goes for white nationalist, supremacists, and alt-right (all intertwined). trump thought he could carry these groups.  he just not smart enough to realize they were never on his side.  Too many jews in the trump family.

As others have mentioned, minorities also support trump.  many who supported him appreciated that fact that:  No new wars in the middle east, troop drawdowns, tax cuts, ease of regulations, low unemployment,  supreme court nominees, pro life, federal court appointees.

he should have won by a land slide and then he should have lost by a landslide.  Neither occurred, the country is divided, and he will leave as the worst president ever.  We still have dinosaurs in office that should have been put to pasture years ago.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No reason to get all mean just because you disagree with them.
> 
> I know you don’t like hearing people accurately predict that McFrumpy McS**t is going to get impeached again. I know you certainly didn’t like me explaining to you and Heil Karen Grace what was going to happen to Parler before it did, I know you don’t like hearing that getting upset about Parler getting what it deserves means you hate the 1st Amendment and free enterprise, which makes you un-American. I know you don’t want to hear that appeasement is not going to happen and that these s**tbags are going to pay. I’m sure you would prefer that Karen Grace the Appeaser weren’t always wrong about everything. Too bad. Maybe at some point you’ll wake up and see what is actually happening around you and why.


You have me mistaken with someone else.  your bubble must be full of condensation and you can't see very well.   I could care less if trump is impeached again. It won't affect my life, or the lives of many.  

As is the norm, you've typed a bunch of words that mean nothing.  Personal Twitter,facebook, etc accounts aren't  my cup of tea  Great for business promotion but that's where I leave it.  Parler will attract the same level of silliness that Twitter does.  I can't imagine being on them.  This place already take up an inordinate amount of my time!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> - another bot that refuses to engage in meaningful discussion. Must be sharing bunk beds with you know who..


You call your insistence on a trump dictated narrative discussion? Lol!


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump also increased his share of minority voters relative to 2016 so quite a melting pot indeed.  He lost because his share of white voters (mostly in the suburbs) dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He lost because for every additional voter he turned out or increased his share, the D's did that and more. Adding 11M voters, as T did is really impressive, and 74M is crazy - the second most ever. Unfortunately Biden got the most ever at 81M, 15M more than Clinton - I don't think they were just white suburbanites.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

The silencing of voices by tech is a huge issue. Right now most are not thinking through the implications.

"The Chinese government restricts free speech on the internet, but big tech companies in the US are now so powerful -- and colluding -- that they have created monopolies which dictate which online speech is allowed. It should terrify anyone who cares about the marketplace of ideas.

In other words, the first amendment jurisprudence of the United States is predicated on the government not prohibiting speech. But the Internet has created such powerful companies that their power to restrict speech is now more all encompassing than the US government's.

This shouldnt be a partisan issue at all. The marketplace of ideas allows fringe ideas to win the battle of minds. Its how our country evolves. Many liberal & conservative thoughts that are now ascendant were once fringe minority positions. Stifling that debate makes us China."


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Militias aren't pro trump, they are antigovernment. The hysteria that trump creates provides them space to operate more feely. Same goes for white nationalist, supremacists


Nobody is courting these groups.

From the SPLC to the FBI they estimate there may be 50k of them nationwide.

They make zero difference politically. Much of the press would have you believe they are far larger. They are not.

Robert Spencer the "leader" of purportedly one of the biggest groups can barely fill a small conference room in a hotel in DC each year for their "national conference".

The ADL estimates nationwide today that the clan (kkk) has about 3k members as another example.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

How much of a s**tbag must you be for Bill Belichick to refuse to accept the Presidential Medal of Freedom from you?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> How much of a s**tbag must you be for Bill Belichick to refuse to accept the Presidential Medal of Freedom from you?


You should probably ask Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes.

Of course Ellen got one under Obama....so there's that.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You call your insistence on a trump dictated narrative discussion? Lol!


 -the man fascinates you.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Nobody is courting these groups.
> 
> From the SPLC to the FBI they estimate there may be 50k of them nationwide.
> 
> ...


It's a reason why the federal government doesn't have an appetite for openly confronting them. They are much more dangerous and better organized then their latte sipping counterparts on the other side of the fence.  They are more are capable of creating a mass casualty event.   We will see a larger federal presence over the next 3 weeks or so at critical locations throughout the country.  But that will be it.  The NG boys and girls will go back to their weekday jobs soon after.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The silencing of voices by tech is a huge issue. Right now most are not thinking through the implications.
> 
> "The Chinese government restricts free speech on the internet, but big tech companies in the US are now so powerful -- and colluding -- that they have created monopolies which dictate which online speech is allowed. It should terrify anyone who cares about the marketplace of ideas.
> 
> ...


I agree with the principles of this, but as private companies they can restrict what they want basically.

Put it this way, the US government telling US private companies what they can and cannot do, would also be akin to China telling companies there what they can and cannot do. That's the other side of that coin so to speak.

Private companies restricting content is not a 1st amendment issue. You or I don't have the right to post whatever we want here, for example. We have the right to post whatever Dominic is prepared to tolerate. If he decides to ban either of us, he's not restricting our 1st amendment rights. Twitter, Facebook etc. are just mega scales larger.

There's a much wider ripple effect starting to show. Companies are pulling back on donations, Hallmark are even asking for money back. Halsey's book not be published (nobody has the right to have their book published, so again not a 1st amendment right as he's said and as he knows, but hey, stir that pot). The real estate company selling/leasing T'd Washington property have pulled. The PGA pulled their tournament. Parler suddenly finding that nobody wants them - those companies are basically deciding the commercials are not there. Or how about Cumulus Media who broadcast the right wing talk shows telling them what to say, have they previously , where's the outrage about that?

It is concerning that the Tech companies have this amount of "power" though. But then again, we gave it to them and we ensure they retain it by continuing to use their services.


----------



## watfly (Jan 11, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Neither occurred, the country is divided, and he will leave as the worst president ever.


Personally, I'd give it to Carter for Stagflation and the Ayatollah to name a few, but Trump's inciting insurrection certainly qualifies for worst behavior.

I could give Carter best post president.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I agree with the principles of this, but as private companies they can restrict what they want basically.
> 
> Put it this way, the US government telling US private companies what they can and cannot do, would also be akin to China telling companies there what they can and cannot do. That's the other side of that coin so to speak.
> 
> ...


Understanding is an important step. Unfortunately, most of the Grace Karen Snowflake crowd here will continue to whine that the exercise of the 1st Amendment, free will and the free market “aren’t fair” when people use them in ways they don’t like. It is strange, but thoroughly enjoyable, that the people whining so much today all spent most of their lives proclaiming how awful government regulations are and how bigoty cake makers should be able to refuse service to anyone they want are now so upset about what they held so dearly. Instead, it turns out all of that was pretense. All they ever really believed was “gimme gimme gimme what I want, even if that means authoritarian government”.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

So much fun watching magats cry when they learn they’ve been put on the do not fly list because they’re domestic terrorists. How long until it sinks in that the federal government is only getting started with them? Do you think Don the Dung Pile has any clue what’s in store for him?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

watfly said:


> Personally, I'd give it to Carter for Stagflation and the Ayatollah to name a few, but Trump's inciting insurrection certainly qualifies for worst behavior.
> 
> I could give Carter best post president.


Wilson not only was a racist, he actively encouraged racism in the federal government and his endorsement of "Birth of a Nation" was instrumental in the second revival of the Klan.

Buchanan fiddled while the nation drifted into civil war.

Then there's Andrew Jackson who practically committed genocide against the Native Americans.

Trump's certainly up there though.  Biden has the potential to be Lincoln (though so far he's talking a big unity, but little when it comes to curbing the excesses of his own party) through (quite literally) Buchanan.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wilson not only was a racist, he actively encouraged racism in the federal government and his endorsement of "Birth of a Nation" was instrumental in the second revival of the Klan.
> 
> Buchanan fiddled while the nation drifted into civil war.
> 
> ...


The R's, or enough of them, have to want unity also. They have shown nothing in the last 12 years to suggest they are interested in that. Biden can go down that road, and needs to keep his disparate party together, for sure - and that won't be easy. But he can't do that if the R's behave like they have during every D presidency since the 90s. 

Neither party is blameless. Both need to want some semblance of unity. Biden's 47 years, or whatever, in politics and given that he is a centrist are probably the two biggest things he has going for him. The country needs stability IMV.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wilson not only was a racist, he actively encouraged racism in the federal government and his endorsement of "Birth of a Nation" was instrumental in the second revival of the Klan.
> 
> Buchanan fiddled while the nation drifted into civil war.
> 
> ...


I think you forgot to blame Bill Clinton for Wednesday’s insurrection. Or when you said Biden should be talking about his party’s excesses were you referring to Bill getting a BJ?  I mean, I know how that’s an impeachable offense, while attempting to overthrow democracy and inciting an insurrection is not.


----------



## watfly (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wilson not only was a racist, he actively encouraged racism in the federal government and his endorsement of "Birth of a Nation" was instrumental in the second revival of the Klan.
> 
> Buchanan fiddled while the nation drifted into civil war
> Then there's Andrew Jackson who practically committed genocide against the Native Americans.
> ...


Thanks.  I'm not that educated, I guess I was thinking in my lifetime, although I don't remember Lyndon B.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The R's, or enough of them, have to want unity also. They have shown nothing in the last 12 years to suggest they are interested in that. Biden can go down that road, and needs to keep his disparate party together, for sure - and that won't be easy. But he can't do that if the R's behave like they have during every D presidency since the 90s.
> 
> Neither party is blameless. Both need to want some semblance of unity. Biden's 47 years, or whatever, in politics and given that he is a centrist are probably the two biggest things he has going for him. The country needs stability IMV.


When the ‘publicans vote to boot each and every insurrectionist out of Congress, we can talk. Until then, every single one of them gets to pay, except maybe that Romney fellow.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 11, 2021)

I was today years old when I learned Pelosi was 80! Wow.

Did anyone else see that video of the Rep from Oregon opening (what seemed to be some side door,) and letting protestors file right in? It appears he was leaving, but literally- just let them right in.

I'd love to hear thoughts on that.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Understanding is an important step. Unfortunately, most of the Grace Karen Snowflake crowd here will continue to whine that the exercise of the 1st Amendment, free will and the free market “aren’t fair” when people use them in ways they don’t like. It is strange, but thoroughly enjoyable, that the people whining so much today all spent most of their lives proclaiming how awful government regulations are and how bigoty cake makers should be able to refuse service to anyone they want are now so upset about what they held so dearly. Instead, it turns out all of that was pretense. All they ever really believed was “gimme gimme gimme what I want, even if that means authoritarian government”.


Yes, there is certainly an irony in R's wanting to restrict free enterprise and the market deciding what it wants to do because free enterprise and the market has decided they don't like what some R's are peddling.


----------



## N00B (Jan 11, 2021)

Any chance we can keep this topic extremely active for the foreseeable future?  It seems to be keeping EOTL in the right section... ‘off-topic’.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 11, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The R's, or enough of them, have to want unity also. They have shown nothing in the last 12 years to suggest they are interested in that. Biden can go down that road, and needs to keep his disparate party together, for sure - and that won't be easy. But he can't do that if the R's behave like they have during every D presidency since the 90s.
> 
> Neither party is blameless. Both need to want some semblance of unity. Biden's 47 years, or whatever, in politics and given that he is a centrist are probably the two biggest things he has going for him. The country needs stability IMV.


the problem with many of the lefts vision for unity (not saying it’s you necessarily) is that it often involves the rs having to give up disagreeing with the left.  Obama did a lot of that which soured me on him.  To their credit most of the rs opposed the election objections (Mitch’s speech was a masterpiece). Almost all of them have uniformly condemned the capitol violence.  The left has yet to condemn Antifa, has in the last several days engaged in overreach, and has yet to condemn bad behavior in its own caucus (ranging from the Pelosi mask incident, kamalas office helping bail out Antifa rioters, Maxine waters inciting). I agree however both sides are awful.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the problem with many of the lefts vision for unity (not saying it’s you necessarily) is that it often involves the rs having to give up disagreeing with the left.  Obama did a lot of that which soured me on him.  To their credit most of the rs opposed the election objections (Mitch’s speech was a masterpiece). Almost all of them have uniformly condemned the capitol violence.  The left has yet to condemn Antifa, has in the last several days engaged in overreach, and has yet to condemn bad behavior in its own caucus (ranging from the Pelosi mask incident, kamalas office helping bail out Antifa rioters, Maxine waters inciting). I agree however both sides are awful.


Whataboutism. ‘publicans are no heroes for spending four years supporting the movement that led to an insurrection, when only one of them in all of Congress opposed any of the behavior that caused this to happen. With the exception of Mitt, there is not a single ‘publican who did not collaborate in the insurrection right up until it happened. Even now, ‘publicans are refusing to take any responsibility for anything that led to this and are, in fact, are blaming democrats for an attempted coup by them.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the problem with many of the lefts vision for unity (not saying it’s you necessarily) is that it often involves the rs having to give up disagreeing with the left.  Obama did a lot of that which soured me on him.  To their credit most of the rs opposed the election objections (Mitch’s speech was a masterpiece). Almost all of them have uniformly condemned the capitol violence.  The left has yet to condemn Antifa, has in the last several days engaged in overreach, and has yet to condemn bad behavior in its own caucus (ranging from the Pelosi mask incident, kamalas office helping bail out Antifa rioters, Maxine waters inciting). I agree however both sides are awful.


I would say the opposite is true as well, R's want D's to give up disagreeing as well. So much hypocrisy on both sides. Again, wish people focused on spotting the grifters, which is about 90% of all the politicians.

Mitch's speech was good....bit of a stretch in calling it a masterpiece.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 11, 2021)

N00B said:


> Any chance we can keep this topic extremely active for the foreseeable future?  It seems to be keeping EOTL in the right section... ‘off-topic’.


In my defense, I did manage to run the hard core racists and covid denialists off, as well as @crush. If folks are going to talk civilly about soccer stuff in a soccer forum, I feel like my work here is mostly done. Wouldn’t you agree?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 11, 2021)

EOTL said:


> In my defense, I did manage to run the hard core racists and covid denialists off, as well as @crush. If folks are going to talk civilly about soccer stuff in a soccer forum, I feel like my work here is mostly done. Wouldn’t you agree?


Dare I say- where is Crush?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 11, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Dare I say- where is Crush?


Driving back from DC? (I jest)


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

happy9 said:


> -the man fascinates you.


His lack of human qualities is disturbing.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> His lack of human qualities is disturbing.


Says one of the lefty trolls


----------



## crush (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> In my defense, I did manage to run the hard core racists and covid denialists off, as well as @crush. If folks are going to talk civilly about soccer stuff in a soccer forum, I feel like my work here is mostly done. Wouldn’t you agree?


I love you bro and forgive you.  Let's drop all the dualistic BS that ALL of us have been playing.  I wanted to share with you before the internet is blacked out and I believe, destroyed.  The dude who built it is ashamed at what it's become so he's been making a new one  This week is going to be insane and amazing all in one.  You are about to witness a miracle bro.  My advice to you and those who believe like you.  Put silly disputes aside and put the children first.  If you do that, it will go well for you.  We have to protect the children and we messed that up as a country and the world.  With the invention of film, internet and smart phones and smart this and that, were all traced and EVERYTHING is recorded.  btw, I can't go back and forth today with you.  I will be back to chat tomorrow morning if we still have internet


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Says one of the lefty trolls


Defending the Impeached Peach of Shit from an assertion that he lacks human qualities says a lot Grace Karen. It looks like you’re really getting to her @Hüsker Dü.

Brace yourselves everybody, ‘cuz Grace Karen the Apologist is about to go through the roof today over impeachment. I don’t know someone rationalizes being wrong with such frequency. Wanna give us some insight @crush?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Private companies restricting content is not a 1st amendment issue. You or I don't have the right to post whatever we want here, for example. We have the right to post whatever Dominic is prepared to tolerate. If he decides to ban either of us, he's not restricting our 1st amendment rights. Twitter, Facebook etc. are just mega scales larger.


That is the problem. Twitter and Facebook are in fact the public square now. They have more power to regulate speech in a sense right now vs what the gov does.

If Dom bans me or you, then our access to chatting with 20 regulars and maybe 200 people who drop is stopped.

When Twitter bans someone or some group, their access to billions is gone. And the billions access to their ideas are gone.

That is the big difference. 

_"What, then, should be done? First, the Parler purge should be investigated as an antitrust violation. The Sherman Antitrust Act makes conspiracies in restraint of trade unlawful; Parler has a colorable claim that Apple, Google, and Amazon acted in concert to crush their company.

Antitrust is just the beginning. Conservatives are facing a collective, inescapable, yet private regime of discrimination and censorship. The only institution powerful enough to defeat this cartel is the federal government. If and when Republicans retake power in 2024, the first item on the agenda should be new laws that protect every American’s civil right to speak freely on social media.

And yes, the right of all Americans to speak on social media should be seen as a civil right.

The Fourteenth Amendment made governmental racial discrimination unlawful; that, though, was not enough to make our country’s underlying commitment to racial equality meaningful, so the federal government passed laws prohibiting racial discrimination by private companies.

Similarly, the First Amendment protects against government censorship. *But in 2020, most political debate happens on large social-media platforms. Facebook and Twitter are the modern public square.* Thus, if our society’s commitment to free speech is to have any meaning, our government *must constrain large social-media companies from censoring Americans’ lawful speech.*

Poland, appropriately enough, is leading the way. Their Justice Minister, Zbigniew Ziobro, announced last month that the Polish government would enact a law constraining Big Tech from censoring their citizens. Polish users who are victims of censorship can go to a new Polish court, get an injunction forcing the company to restore their account and their content, on penalty of a fine of as much as 1.8 million euros.

We should do the same."_


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

I wonder how Grace Karen feels about American hero @donk_enby exposing all the domestic terrorists’ identities? She’s been such a huge defender of “self help” insurrection, surely she is a fan of self help hacking to Parler to discovery these seditionists’ identities.  Or maybe she’s only a supporter of the rights of social media when it involves facilitating insurrection like Parler, but not preventing it like Twitter. 

My best guess is that she supports breaking into the Capitol in support of a coup, but does not support breaking into the servers of a private entity that facilitates the attempted overthrow of the u.S. government.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> That is the problem. Twitter and Facebook are in fact the public square now. They have more power to regulate speech in a sense right now vs what the gov does.
> 
> If Dom bans me or you, then our access to chatting with 20 regulars and maybe 200 people who drop is stopped.
> 
> ...


So you want the US to be the same as China and dictating what can (and by extension cannot) be said on social media. 

Just because someone someone says "_*Facebook and Twitter are the modern public square*_" doesn't make it true. The First Amendment doesn't allow any speech, there are limits, such as incitement to riot, incitement to commit murder, incitement to commit criminal acts, collusion to commit criminal acts etc. I agree that that rules should be consistent for everyone.

The Polish regime as a leader in anything democratic is hilarious. The same regime that decided to lower the retirement age of the judiciary so that it could purge its ranks. The regime that brought in a law that would allow them to discipline the judiciary for their rulings (if they disagree with the govt. basically), essentially eliminating judicial independence. They are surely the gold standard for something, but free speech certainly isn't it, neither is democracy but there you go.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> That is the problem. Twitter and Facebook are in fact the public square now. They have more power to regulate speech in a sense right now vs what the gov does.
> 
> If Dom bans me or you, then our access to chatting with 20 regulars and maybe 200 people who drop is stopped.
> 
> ...


Ha ha. You’ve clearly been talking to legal beagle Grace Karen.  The argument that private companies Facebook and Twitter are actually public companies because they did something you don’t like - exercising their first amendment and free market right to tell the Impeached Peach of Shit to f**k off - is about as stupid as it gets. Seriously, this argument is delusional. So whiny. And where were you when Trumplestiltskin was using it to his advantage anyway?

As for Amazon, Parler can use any of a number of vendors to host its servers. No antitrust. As for Apple and Google, there are any number of ways Parler can be still be accessed, even on phones that use Apple and Google operating systems. Just log into their site using the Internet. Apple and Google didn’t shut off their servers. That is another problem by another company in another business. 

You are seriously saying that the U.S. should do what Poland is doing? This is what the magat ‘publicans have come to. They are grasping at straws and desperate for anything that would impair the 1st Amendment and free market for no reason other than they don’t like democracy. They’re so desperate that they’re claiming we should take our lead from what is essentially a third world country with an autocratic government and no 1st Amendment. 

Whiny losers. Seditionists. Collaborators. Appeasers. Just admit that you think we should skip the Marmalade Middle Man and just let Putin tell us what to do directly.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> So you want the US to be the same as China and dictating what can (and by extension cannot) be said on social media.


Actually you have it backwards. 

In China the government has biz limit speech. They tell the companies not to allow certain ideas. 

That is very different from what we have today where biz in the US is actively taking sides, and limiting speech. 

There are no other avenues for the dissemination of speech that has the reach of FB, Twitter, Instagram. 

So the idea is not to tell these companies to kill of speech as is happening in China. The idea is that since these companies effectively control what is being disseminated, to tell them they CANNOT silence voices. 

Big difference.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

The Republican establishment is badly misreading the mood of the Republican electorate.  I'm becoming increasingly convinced the Republican Party won't survive this.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348997253608976389


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually you have it backwards.
> 
> In China the government has biz limit speech. They tell the companies not to allow certain ideas.
> 
> ...


Your brain is scrambled. Every autocratic government tells you it will control and regulate speech fairly once it gets to make the decisions. Then, in the name “fairness”, it does exactly what you want, which is force everyone to hear more of what they want you to hear.  You want to force everyone to hear more conspiracy theories, more lies about how the election was stolen, more of everything you want because it turns out that the information that you want to get publicized does not have real value in the free market. The only way to force people to hear more lies more frequently is to have control over the means. You want to allow the government to force private companies to allow people to “flood the space” with information that lacks value and cannot stand on its own without being propped up by the government.

The U.S. government cannot force newspapers to publish articles written by “journalists” it likes, by the Marmalade Moron, or by the Q whackadoos. It cannot force billboard operators to post Devin Nunes conspiracy theories on the highway. It can’t force a book publishing company to publish a book it doesn’t want to. It cannot tell any private entity what they must publish. That is as clear a violation of the 1st Amendment as there is. You just hate the 1st Amendment because you’re hearing too much of the truth and you don’t like it.

You also want government to control private business. A company (Parler) breached the terms of its contract with Amazon, so you want the government to be able to override it because they don’t like what is happening in private business.  And not because Amazon is even remotely the only place that can provide server hosting, but because you don’t want contracts to apply when they don’t benefit you.

What you are saying is insane. It is nothing more than that you don’t like democracy so let’s get the f**k rid of it in the hope that autocracy will work out better for you.  God you magats are brain dead.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually you have it backwards.
> 
> In China the government has biz limit speech. They tell the companies not to allow certain ideas.
> 
> ...


No, that's what you'd like to think, but essentially you are saying that government decides what speech can be allowed. In your ideal, that's any - but you are not the govt. If the govt. can decide any, then they can also decide "anything but", just as China does.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No, that's what you'd like to think, but essentially you are saying that government decides what speech can be allowed. In your ideal, that's any - but you are not the govt. If the govt. can decide any, then they can also decide "anything but", just as China does.


There's a very simple fix to this (well, at least simple at first glance and I'll get into why it's not really simple at all).  What the government can do is basically tell the ISP, o.k. if you want immunity, you can moderate but it can only be moderation in line with the established first amendment case law and it must be administered politically neutrally.  If you don't want immunity, that's fine you can do whatever you want but then you are responsible for the content of your users (including CR, defamation, incitement).   For the larger ones, there has to be an appeals process to maintain that immunity, with an ultimate resort to the courts with attorneys fees awarded for frivolous actions.  It's also probably a good idea, given what happened to Parler, to break up some of the tech industry on antitrust grounds.  You are either a newspaper that gets to make content decisions, or you're a bulleting board...pick one.

Here's why the left will object and why it's not so simple....there's no hate speech exception in the US Constitution.  So you couldn't ban nasty racist speech under that formulation unless it's an actual call to violence or something defamatory.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

A call to crush the Republican party in Slate (which is basically a call to war).....





__





						The Only Way to Save American Democracy Now
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

No I did not write this though some might be forgive for mistaking it.....










						American Democracy Died on Capitol Hill
					

Cross-posted from Asia Times. I am reposting this essay, which is behind the Asia Times paywall, in consideration of the seriousness of the situation. This is not a drill.   No Russian cyb...




					pjmedia.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The Republican establishment is badly misreading the mood of the Republican electorate.  I'm becoming increasingly convinced the Republican Party won't survive this.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348997253608976389


What's incredibly sad to me with all of this, is at the core, all Americans want the same things. The media and politicians are just in the way of making it happen. Even on here we continually talk about the "lefties" this, the "righties" that. It's these ridiculous boundaries we've created that literally make no sense. I know I'm throwing out a lot of idealism here, but at the end of the day everyone wants (in no particular order):

- Equality 
- Food and Shelter
- A living wage
- Opportunity 
- Religious Freedom
- Reasonable Healthcare
- Reasonable Immigration
- Reasonable Education 
- Protection from Foreign Countries/Entities
- Safety at large gatherings (concerts, schools, etc)
- Safety from natural disasters (fires, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc)

There are some hot button issues, such as abortion, but I argue if we could focus on the above, we'd bring a lot of this country together.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's a very simple fix to this (well, at least simple at first glance and I'll get into why it's not really simple at all).  What the government can do is basically tell the ISP, o.k. if you want immunity, you can moderate but it can only be moderation in line with the established first amendment case law and it must be administered politically neutrally.  If you don't want immunity, that's fine you can do whatever you want but then you are responsible for the content of your users (including CR, defamation, incitement).   For the larger ones, there has to be an appeals process to maintain that immunity, with an ultimate resort to the courts with attorneys fees awarded for frivolous actions.  It's also probably a good idea, given what happened to Parler, to break up some of the tech industry on antitrust grounds.  You are either a newspaper that gets to make content decisions, or you're a bulleting board...pick one.
> 
> Here's why the left will object and why it's not so simple....there's no hate speech exception in the US Constitution.  So you couldn't ban nasty racist speech under that formulation unless it's an actual call to violence or something defamatory.


The crazy lengths to which crazy people will present crazy ideas to rationalize authoritarian government is mind boggling.

Grace Karen proposes that the government tell private companies that if you don’t publish the speech to our satisfaction, we are going to punish you for it. If you are going to decide what speech you want to publish, we will punish you. 

This is as clear a First Amendment violation as you could possibly have, whether it’s a newspaper, a book publishing company, a billboard company, or a social media company. The government does not get to decide what a private company decides to publish. Period. If it tried to do what the legal beagle says, it would last two seconds in court.

At least she recognizes that it’s the right that is almost exclusively responsible for hate speech. Suck on that ‘publicans.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

"On Thursday, Parler was the most popular app in the United States. By Monday, three of the four Silicon Valley monopolies united to destroy it.

With virtual unanimity, leading U.S. liberals celebrated this use of Silicon Valley monopoly power to shut down Parler, just as they overwhelmingly cheered the prior two extraordinary assertions of tech power to control U.S. political discourse: censorship of _The New York Post_’s reporting on the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop, and the banning of the U.S. President from major platforms. Indeed, one would be hard-pressed to find a single national liberal-left politician even expressing concerns about any of this, let alone opposing it.

Not only did leading left-wing politicians not object but some of them were the ones who pleaded with Silicon Valley to use their power this way. After the internet-policing site Sleeping Giants flagged several Parler posts that called for violence, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asked: “What are @Apple and @GooglePlay doing about this?” Once Apple responded by removing Parler from its App Store — a move that House Democrats just three months earlier warned was dangerous anti-trust behavior — she praised Apple and then demanded to know: “Good to see this development from @Apple. @GooglePlay what are you going to do about apps being used to organize violence on your platform?”

----

"As Silicon Valley censorship radically escalated over the past several months — banning pre-election reporting by _The New York Post _about the Biden family, denouncing and deleting multiple posts from the U.S. President and then terminating his access altogether, mass-removal of right-wing accounts — so many people migrated to Parler that it was catapulted to the number one spot on the list of most-downloaded apps on the Apple Play Store, the sole and exclusive means which iPhone users have to download apps. “Overall, the app was the 10th most downloaded social media app in 2020 with 8.1 million new installs,” reported TechCrunch.

It looked as if Parler had proven critics of Silicon Valley monopolistic power wrong. Their success showed that it was possible after all to create a new social media platform to compete with Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And they did so by doing exactly what Silicon Valley defenders long insisted should be done: _if you don’t like the rules imposed by tech giants, go create your own platform with different rules_.

But today, if you want to download, sign up for, or use Parler, you will be unable to do so. That is because three Silicon Valley monopolies — Amazon, Google and Apple — abruptly united to remove Parler from the internet, exactly at the moment when it became the most-downloaded app in the country."

If one were looking for evidence to demonstrate that these tech behemoths are, in fact, monopolies that engage in anti-competitive behavior in violation of antitrust laws, and will obliterate any attempt to compete with them in the marketplace, it would be difficult to imagine anything more compelling than how they just used their unconstrained power to utterly destroy a rising competitor."









						How Silicon Valley, in a Show of Monopolistic Force, Destroyed Parler
					

In the last three months, tech giants have censored political speech and journalism to manipulate U.S. politics, while liberals, with virtual unanimity, have cheered.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

NYT Reporter Warns Conservative Writer Andy Ngo is a ‘Real Threat’, Should Be Censored on Twitter
					

Sarah Jeong, the New York Times reporter who made headlines in 2018 for antagonizing white people, has branded conservative journalist Andy Ngo "dangerous" and called for his censorship on Twitter.  In a tweet posted on Jan. 9, Jeong cited a thread from Donovan Farley, another journalist who...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> NYT Reporter Warns Conservative Writer Andy Ngo is a ‘Real Threat’, Should Be Censored on Twitter
> 
> 
> Sarah Jeong, the New York Times reporter who made headlines in 2018 for antagonizing white people, has branded conservative journalist Andy Ngo "dangerous" and called for his censorship on Twitter.  In a tweet posted on Jan. 9, Jeong cited a thread from Donovan Farley, another journalist who...
> ...


Yeah, between the Jordan Peterson book, the Ngo book, and the Hawley book, and the pressure now coming to remove Art of the Deal from Amazon and other book sellers, we are now in the lets ban books phase of all this.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, between the Jordan Peterson book, the Ngo book, and the Hawley book, and the pressure now coming to remove Art of the Deal from Amazon and other book sellers, we are now in the lets ban books phase of all this.


This is the trend.

Remember when a Rep Senator said over the summer, that the National Guard should be called in to stop the riots? How did the staff of the NY Times react?

This attitude of shutting down views one disagrees with is becoming increasingly common on the left.









						The New York Times staff revolt over Tom Cotton’s op-ed, explained
					

Why journalists publicly revolted against a senator’s op-ed calling on Trump to "send in the troops" — a backlash culminating in the opinion editor’s resignation.




					www.vox.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> What's incredibly sad to me with all of this, is at the core, all Americans want the same things. The media and politicians are just in the way of making it happen. Even on here we continually talk about the "lefties" this, the "righties" that. It's these ridiculous boundaries we've created that literally make no sense. I know I'm throwing out a lot of idealism here, but at the end of the day everyone wants (in no particular order):
> 
> - Equality
> - Food and Shelter
> ...


This is not true at all. I would say that everyone wants those things for themselves, but where things go wrong is that (mostly ‘publicans) don’t give a shit whether anyone else has any of them. It is the American Way.

Equality for example - “I want to be treated with dignity and respect, but I don’t want you to be able to get married like I can because you’re gay. I don’t want you to get the tax benefits I get, because you’re gay. I also want to be able to kick you out of my business because you are gay, but I don’t want anyone to be able to do that to me because of the excuse I use to kick you out of mine, namely my religion.  And don’t get me started on how you black people have had enough time to get over centuries of oppression, mistreatment and discrimination. If you don’t want cops to shoot you, you shouldn’t storm the Capitol, I mean hold a bag of chips or especially maybe steal a pack of smokes.”

The starting point to fixing a problem is recognizing it exists.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

This must be more of the #UNITY I have been hearing about.

"President-elect Joseph R. Biden on Monday said he is looking for ways that the Senate could hold an impeachment trial for President Trump while working on the new administration’s agenda."









						Joe Biden hoping Senate can split impeachment with other priorities
					

President-elect Joseph R. Biden on Monday said he is looking for ways that the Senate could hold an impeachment trial for President Trump while working on the new administration’s agenda.




					amp.washingtontimes.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

This is a great read:









						A Closer Look at the ‘QAnon Shaman’ Leading the Mob
					

Conspirutiality — in which New Age wellness meets conspiracy culture — helped stoke the riot on Capitol Hill




					gen.medium.com


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> NYT Reporter Warns Conservative Writer Andy Ngo is a ‘Real Threat’, Should Be Censored on Twitter
> 
> 
> Sarah Jeong, the New York Times reporter who made headlines in 2018 for antagonizing white people, has branded conservative journalist Andy Ngo "dangerous" and called for his censorship on Twitter.  In a tweet posted on Jan. 9, Jeong cited a thread from Donovan Farley, another journalist who...
> ...


I agree with her.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> This is not true at all. I would say that everyone wants those things for themselves, but where things go wrong is that (mostly ‘publicans) don’t give a shit whether anyone else has any of them. It is the American Way.
> 
> Equality for example - “I want to be treated with dignity and respect, but I don’t want you to be able to get married like I can because you’re gay. I don’t want you to get the tax benefits I get, because you’re gay. I also want to be able to kick you out of my business because you are gay, but I don’t want anyone to be able to do that to me because of the excuse I use to kick you out of mine, namely my religion.  And don’t get me started on how you black people have had enough time to get over centuries of oppression, mistreatment and discrimination. If you don’t want cops to shoot you, you shouldn’t storm the Capitol, I mean hold a bag of chips or especially maybe steal a pack of smokes.”
> 
> The starting point to fixing a problem is recognizing it exists.


I was coming at from the perspective of the individual....these are the things people want for themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> This is a great read:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Says he wrote some books. A quick search of the NY Times best seller list didn't produce any results for some reason.

I still stand by my prediction that you will see that outfit at some Halloween parties this coming year.

Did he actually break anything by the way? Or was he just following the actual rioters in and then taking every opportunity to get a photo op?

Best quote in the article?
"He is a big believer in using psychedelic ceremonies for mental health. Somehow all those psychedelics failed to turn him into a liberal."


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I agree with her.


Nice to know you are about censorship. NGO has been writing about Antifa for some time. Been attacked by them and has a lawsuit against some of the perps. 

So I guess that is enough to be banned? Or what specifically makes you agree that he should be off Twitter?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> "On Thursday, Parler was the most popular app in the United States. By Monday, three of the four Silicon Valley monopolies united to destroy it.
> 
> With virtual unanimity, leading U.S. liberals celebrated this use of Silicon Valley monopoly power to shut down Parler, just as they overwhelmingly cheered the prior two extraordinary assertions of tech power to control U.S. political discourse: censorship of _The New York Post_’s reporting on the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop, and the banning of the U.S. President from major platforms. Indeed, one would be hard-pressed to find a single national liberal-left politician even expressing concerns about any of this, let alone opposing it.
> 
> ...


Amazon does not have a monopoly on cloud server services. Google and Apple don’t have a monopoly on either phones or operating systems, let alone on access to the Internet. Facebook and Twitter don’t have a monopoly on social media, let alone all media. Trumpy McShit for Brains can walk down the hall and hold a press conference at any time, and the NY Post can write about it. And Parler will let you Qs say whatever you want once it finds a cloud server vender to replace the one that fired them for breaching it’s contract. 

The whole idea that companies should be forced to prop up a media outlet (The New York Post) or social media platform (Parler) that can’t compete in the market is ridiculous. If the New York Post wants to reach a bigger audience, it should provide value instead of making up obvious bullshit lies that no one cares about and legitimate companies want no part in supporting. Hunter Biden left a laptop with incredibly important information in a small NJ computer repair shop run by a magat who then gave it to perhaps the creepiest sycophant in American history, who then gave it to the DOJ - his DOJ - and they haven’t corrobarated any of that b.s.? Sure. 

The desperation of these magat losers is off the hook.  They lost the election, they lost their coup, they lost their favorite business because it can’t compete in a free market. F**king pathetic. I’d say that pretty soon they’ll be demanding that we should follow the lead of autocratic third world countries, but they already are. Rational people are seeing in full splendor how magats are perfectly willing magats are to take down democracy because they aren’t getting what they want.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> This must be more of the #UNITY I have been hearing about.
> 
> "President-elect Joseph R. Biden on Monday said he is looking for ways that the Senate could hold an impeachment trial for President Trump while working on the new administration’s agenda."
> 
> ...


Only magats want “unity” in the sense they don’t want consequences for their actions. Whiner. Loser. Your Orange Orangutan master is going to pay dearly. Just accept it. 

If you want unity, act like it.  If you don’t, stop throwing a hissy fit that a real president is acting like one.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Nice to know you are about censorship. NGO has been writing about Antifa for some time. Been attacked by them and has a lawsuit against some of the perps.
> 
> So I guess that is enough to be banned? Or what specifically makes you agree that he should be off Twitter?


He's also reported on violence perpetrated by the Proud Boys, reported on the takeover of the Capitol in real time, and was one of the first to debunk the entire Antifa was really attacking the Capitol thing (while at the same time pointing out the identify of some known Antifa infiltrators).


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He's also reported on violence perpetrated by the Proud Boys, reported on the takeover of the Capitol in real time, and was one of the first to debunk the entire Antifa was really attacking the Capitol thing (while at the same time pointing out the identify of some known Antifa infiltrators).


That is correct.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The R's, or enough of them, have to want unity also. They have shown nothing in the last 12 years to suggest they are interested in that. Biden can go down that road, and needs to keep his disparate party together, for sure - and that won't be easy. But he can't do that if the R's behave like they have during every D presidency since the 90s.
> 
> Neither party is blameless. Both need to want some semblance of unity. Biden's 47 years, or whatever, in politics and given that he is a centrist are probably the two biggest things he has going for him. The country needs stability IMV.


Since the advent of “conservative media” and their realization that lots of money can be made by polarizing their audience and assuring brand loyalty America has become more and more divided. Social media has accelerated that trend. The left media although nowhere near as profitable or wide spread, after giving the right side a huge head start, has also furthered the divide. No more Walter Cronkite and the left has no Rush Limbaugh. IMHO the extreme right like the extreme left are distinct minorities, but the right are the squeakiest wheel on the planet so seem to get more attention.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> So you want the US to be the same as China and dictating what can (and by extension cannot) be said on social media.
> 
> Just because someone someone says "_*Facebook and Twitter are the modern public square*_" doesn't make it true. The First Amendment doesn't allow any speech, there are limits, such as incitement to riot, incitement to commit murder, incitement to commit criminal acts, collusion to commit criminal acts etc. I agree that that rules should be consistent for everyone.
> 
> The Polish regime as a leader in anything democratic is hilarious. The same regime that decided to lower the retirement age of the judiciary so that it could purge its ranks. The regime that brought in a law that would allow them to discipline the judiciary for their rulings (if they disagree with the govt. basically), essentially eliminating judicial independence. They are surely the gold standard for something, but free speech certainly isn't it, neither is democracy but there you go.


China is a country, Facebook, Twitter and Amazon are private companies there are terms of use, break ‘em and pay the consequences. Pretty simple really, a concept even an ironworker can understand! Lol!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, between the Jordan Peterson book, the Ngo book, and the Hawley book, and the pressure now coming to remove Art of the Deal from Amazon and other book sellers, we are now in the lets ban books phase of all this.


Did you attend trump U?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's a very simple fix to this (well, at least simple at first glance and I'll get into why it's not really simple at all).  What the government can do is basically tell the ISP, o.k. if you want immunity, you can moderate but it can only be moderation in line with the established first amendment case law and it must be administered politically neutrally.  If you don't want immunity, that's fine you can do whatever you want but then you are responsible for the content of your users (including CR, defamation, incitement).   For the larger ones, there has to be an appeals process to maintain that immunity, with an ultimate resort to the courts with attorneys fees awarded for frivolous actions.  It's also probably a good idea, given what happened to Parler, to break up some of the tech industry on antitrust grounds.  You are either a newspaper that gets to make content decisions, or you're a bulleting board...pick one.
> 
> Here's why the left will object and why it's not so simple....there's no hate speech exception in the US Constitution.  So you couldn't ban nasty racist speech under that formulation unless it's an actual call to violence or something defamatory.


Social Media platforms are not newspapers and never were, hence they have different rules. Comparing them displays a fundamental lack of understanding.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you attend trump U?


Nah....they welched on the jacuzzi in every dorm room promise.....

Better than that sad rock and roll high school that taught you to appreciate that sad forgotten 80s band.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Amazon does not have a monopoly on cloud server services. Google and Apple don’t have a monopoly on either phones or operating systems, let alone on access to the Internet. Facebook and Twitter don’t have a monopoly on social media, let alone all media. Trumpy McShit for Brains can walk down the hall and hold a press conference at any time, and the NY Post can write about it. And Parler will let you Qs say whatever you want once it finds a cloud server vender to replace the one that fired them for breaching it’s contract.
> 
> The whole idea that companies should be forced to prop up a media outlet (The New York Post) or social media platform (Parler) that can’t compete in the market is ridiculous. If the New York Post wants to reach a bigger audience, it should provide value instead of making up obvious bullshit lies that no one cares about and legitimate companies want no part in supporting. Hunter Biden left a laptop with incredibly important information in a small NJ computer repair shop run by a magat who then gave it to perhaps the creepiest sycophant in American history, who then gave it to the DOJ - his DOJ - and they haven’t corrobarated any of that b.s.? Sure.
> 
> The desperation of these magat losers is off the hook.  They lost the election, they lost their coup, they lost their favorite business because it can’t compete in a free market. F**king pathetic. I’d say that pretty soon they’ll be demanding that we should follow the lead of autocratic third world countries, but they already are. Rational people are seeing in full splendor how magats are perfectly willing magats are to take down democracy because they aren’t getting what they want.


Will Merrick Garland be exposing the contents of the laptop now allegedly in DOJ possession?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Nice to know you are about censorship. NGO has been writing about Antifa for some time. Been attacked by them and has a lawsuit against some of the perps.
> 
> So I guess that is enough to be banned? Or what specifically makes you agree that he should be off Twitter?


I agreed with what she wrote in the article.  Didn't you read it?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Social Media platforms are not newspapers and never were, hence they have different rules. Comparing them displays a fundamental lack of understanding.


"Never were".  Ah that's where you aren't understanding....initially they were.  I actually wrote 2 law review articles on the subject, one of which was cited in drafting the hearings on the legislation.  Hence the need for Section 230.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He's also reported on violence perpetrated by the Proud Boys, reported on the takeover of the Capitol in real time, and was one of the first to debunk the entire Antifa was really attacking the Capitol thing (while at the same time pointing out the identify of some known Antifa infiltrators).


Who were the antifa infiltrators and what were they doing?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> "On Thursday, Parler was the most popular app in the United States. By Monday, three of the four Silicon Valley monopolies united to destroy it.
> 
> With virtual unanimity, leading U.S. liberals celebrated this use of Silicon Valley monopoly power to shut down Parler, just as they overwhelmingly cheered the prior two extraordinary assertions of tech power to control U.S. political discourse: censorship of _The New York Post_’s reporting on the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop, and the banning of the U.S. President from major platforms. Indeed, one would be hard-pressed to find a single national liberal-left politician even expressing concerns about any of this, let alone opposing it.
> 
> ...


Amazon in this context is nothing like a monopoly. Calling it one in this context displays a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology space. There is a plethora of platform providers or if you want to build it yourself, data center providers, that can facilitate what AWS does. If they don't want to deal with Parler, then they don't have to. Parler, as a private company, has zero rights to compel other private companies to do business with it.

The Google & Apple stores are basically monopolies for iOS & Android, although you can Jailbreak a phone and load what you want, easier on Android obviously. That isn't new and there are ongoing cases challenging that, esp. with Apple - see Spotify. There's possible traction here, but Parler signed up to the T&Cs and if they breached them, then legally they are in a bind.

The last sentence above is utter BS. Parler is not a competitor of Apple, Google or Amazon. They were looking to compete with Facebook (Instagram) and Twitter, who have nothing to do with the aforementioned 3. If Greenwald is making that argument, he should at least get some basic facts right.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> "Never were".  Ah that's where you aren't understanding....initially they were.  I actually wrote 2 law review articles on the subject, one of which was cited in drafting the hearings on the legislation.  Hence the need for Section 230.


Or do you mean that someone classed them as newspapers incorrectly, hence section 230 was needed to clarify that they were not (never were).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Who were the antifa infiltrators and what were they doing?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347318930138918930


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I agreed with what she wrote in the article.  Didn't you read it?


I did. Tells me a lot about you that you read that and came to that conclusion that he should be censored. 

They talk about him being a threat, inciting people, etc. And yet never actually show any examples of said activities. If he were so active in doing so, it would be an easy task to show it.

The screen shots of texts are of someone that the person writing the article admits they don't know who that person is.

"Farley, who labeled Ngo a *"propagandist,"* included screenshots of supposed conversations between anonymous internet users who mention Ngo. It's unclear whether the conservative journalist has any actual connection with them."

The above is journalism?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Or do you mean that someone classed them as newspapers incorrectly, hence section 230 was needed to clarify that they were not (never were).


No at the time there was a debate (marked by the 2 radical differences in approach from Compuserve and Prodigy)....the question which was asked then is are they a publisher or are they a bulletin board.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347318930138918930


Fish....barrel.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's a very simple fix to this (well, at least simple at first glance and I'll get into why it's not really simple at all).  What the government can do is basically tell the ISP, o.k. if you want immunity, you can moderate but it can only be moderation in line with the established first amendment case law and it must be administered politically neutrally.  If you don't want immunity, that's fine you can do whatever you want but then you are responsible for the content of your users (including CR, defamation, incitement).   For the larger ones, there has to be an appeals process to maintain that immunity, with an ultimate resort to the courts with attorneys fees awarded for frivolous actions.  It's also probably a good idea, given what happened to Parler, to break up some of the tech industry on antitrust grounds.  You are either a newspaper that gets to make content decisions, or you're a bulleting board...pick one.
> 
> Here's why the left will object and why it's not so simple....there's no hate speech exception in the US Constitution.  So you couldn't ban nasty racist speech under that formulation unless it's an actual call to violence or something defamatory.


Let's see what the First Amendment has to say -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  

That is a restriction on Congress, not any private business.  Was that not noted in any of your Law Review articles?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I agree with her.


Of course you agree with censorship... it’s the only way you liberals can compete.  Pretend you’re the moral high ground, lie or flat out deny information to the masses and accomplish absolutely nothing while telling the sheep they’re evil if they actually think for themselves.  You’d love to censor anyone that disputes your agenda, communist.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Let's see what the First Amendment has to say -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
> 
> That is a restriction on Congress, not any private business.  Was that not noted in any of your Law Review articles?


Lots of people out there with a piece of paper on the wall that don’t know shit. Half the doctors in this world graduated in the bottom half of their class.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Let's see what the First Amendment has to say -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
> 
> That is a restriction on Congress, not any private business.  Was that not noted in any of your Law Review articles?


"Why, Magoo, you've done it again you sly dog!!!"

We've seen this before with the 14th amendment.  The 14th amendment only restricted the federal and state governments initially.  It was later extended to common carriers, and then more broadly.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have civil rights laws and only the government would be restricted from discriminating.  I'm sure a big time "conservative" like you would say it's fine for private businesses to discriminate.

In any case, the default position prior to legislation was that ISPs were responsible for the content of their users.  Section 230 gave them immunity.  It's very basic...just give them qualified immunity.  They can choose to do whatever they want as a publisher and exercise their 1st amendment right, but then they are liable the same as any other publisher.  Or they can choose the immunity but have to adhere to the terms set by Congress, which would be broadly the same as the first amendment.  This isn't rocket science.  But I forgot....you're my Mr. Magoo, and we love you!


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347318930138918930


Assuming the identification is correct, that's BLM, not antifa.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> "Why, Magoo, you've done it again you sly dog!!!"
> 
> We've seen this before with the 14th amendment.  The 14th amendment only restricted the federal and state governments initially.  It was later extended to common carriers, and then more broadly.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have civil rights laws and only the government would be restricted from discriminating.  I'm sure a big time "conservative" like you would say it's fine for private businesses to discriminate.
> 
> In any case, the default position prior to legislation was that ISPs were responsible for the content of their users.  Section 230 gave them immunity.  It's very basic...just give them qualified immunity.  They can choose to do whatever they want as a publisher and exercise their 1st amendment right, but then they are liable the same as any other publisher.  Or they can choose the immunity but have to adhere to the terms set by Congress, which would be broadly the same as the first amendment.  This isn't rocket science.  But I forgot....your my Mr. Magoo, and we love you!


You could just admit you were wrong instead of (again) cluelessly demonstrating it.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Assuming the identification is correct, that's BLM, not antifa.


Leave it to a big time conservative like you to point out that BLM is worse than Antifa.  Magoo, sorry, but that's racist.....just saying.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You could just admit you were wrong instead of (again) cluelessly demonstrating it.


"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Leave it to a big time conservative like you to point out that BLM is worse than Antifa.  Magoo, sorry, but that's racist.....just saying.


I only pointed out that they were different.  The "worse than" is entirely your position.  So who is the racist here?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I only pointed out that they were different.  The "worse than" is entirely your position.  So who is the racist here?


I'm not the one going around claiming to be a "conservative".  We all know you "conservatives" hate us POC.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm not the one going around claiming to be a "conservative".  We all know you "conservatives" hate us POC.


You're the one that said that BLM was worse than antifa.  Are you evading taking responsibility for making that statement?

Actually, I said I was a conservative in its former meaning, back when that meant respect of the US Constitution, a robust military, balanced budgets, and adherence to the law (or accepting the consequences of protesting against unjust laws).  I have lost track of what the current crop of so-called conservatives believes in - maybe you could fill us in?  In your judgment, what was the proportion of currently-defined conservatives in the Capitol mob?

As for your implication that I hate POCs, you should ask my wife and children.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You're the one that said that BLM was worse than antifa.  Are you evading taking responsibility for making that statement?
> 
> Actually, I said I was a conservative in its former meaning, back when that meant respect of the US Constitution, a robust military, balanced budgets, and adherence to the law (or accepting the consequences of protesting against unjust laws).  I have lost track of what the current crop of so-called conservatives believes in - maybe you could fill us in?  In your judgment, what was the proportion of currently-defined conservatives in the Capitol mob?
> 
> As for your implication that I hate POCs, you should ask my wife and children.


We all know Antifa is fair game (a bunch of white kids) but criticism of BLM is off limits. BLM, after all, to most of us (except of course crazy "conservatives" like you) can do no wrong.  So how dare you point out in any way that BLM could be connected to the Capitol in any way.  That is totally racist.  It's Antifa.

But from the post "charged in 2020 over a BLM-Antifa riot".  There are a handful of others but I don't care enough about you to search every one...this was just the easiest one to find since I knew Ngo had posted it.  That said, it's very clear the handful of leftist infiltrators were NOT driving the Capitol protests.

And I'll throw back at you the same thing that was thrown back at me on these forums...just because you date or marry someone who is a person of color doesn't not make you a racist.  But of course, a crazy "conservative" like you can't see his own privilege right there in front of him.  Need those glasses Magoo.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Biden's theme for the inauguration is apparently going to be "America United".   This will be occurring (unless they delay it til after the first 100 days) at the same time they are trying to impeach Trump.  Seriously a lesson right out of the Soviet playbooks.  Given the poll numbers about how Rs feel about this, you can have unity, or you can give Trump his consequences....pick 1.....but this is just destroying your message.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> We all know Antifa is fair game (a bunch of white kids) but criticism of BLM is off limits. BLM, after all, to most of us (except of course crazy "conservatives" like you) can do no wrong.  So how dare you point out in any way that BLM could be connected to the Capitol in any way.  That is totally racist.  It's Antifa.
> 
> But from the post "charged in 2020 over a BLM-Antifa riot".  There are a handful of others but I don't care enough about you to search every one...this was just the easiest one to find since I knew Ngo had posted it.  That said, it's very clear the handful of leftist infiltrators were NOT driving the Capitol protests.
> 
> And I'll throw back at you the same thing that was thrown back at me on these forums...just because you date or marry someone who is a person of color doesn't not make you a racist.  But of course, a crazy "conservative" like you can't see his own privilege right there in front of him.  Need those glasses Magoo.


Still with the racism charges?  Look back through the thread a few places and see how that started.

Not having had to deal with racist issues in my youth, I never gave a thought to what my kids would go through.  They have been pretty lucky - the worst I am aware of was a racial slur directed at my second son in a soccer game at UCSB.  The ref gave the UCSB player a yellow card for it.  I think under the rules it should have been a red, but perhaps the referee didn't hear the actual words spoken and was cautioning the player based on his aggressive attitude.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

The Rs are tearing themselves apart......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349092249213272067


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden's theme for the inauguration is apparently going to be "America United".   This will be occurring (unless they delay it til after the first 100 days) at the same time they are trying to impeach Trump.  Seriously a lesson right out of the Soviet playbooks.  Given the poll numbers about how Rs feel about this, you can have unity, or you can give Trump his consequences....pick 1.....but this is just destroying your message.


Coocoo.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


"Oh Magoo you've done it again old bean!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Still with the racism charges?  Look back through the thread a few places and see how that started.
> 
> Not having had to deal with racist issues in my youth, I never gave a thought to what my kids would go through.  They have been pretty lucky - the worst I am aware of was a racial slur directed at my second son in a soccer game at UCSB.  The ref gave the UCSB player a yellow card for it.  I think under the rules it should have been a red, but perhaps the referee didn't hear the actual words spoken and was cautioning the player based on his aggressive attitude.


You Magoo, you are so lost and confused you can't even see what's going on here.  Poor old Mr. Magoo.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You Magoo, you are so lost and confused you can't even see what's going on here.  Poor old Mr. Magoo.


You're babbling.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden's theme for the inauguration is apparently going to be "America United".   This will be occurring (unless they delay it til after the first 100 days) at the same time they are trying to impeach Trump.  Seriously a lesson right out of the Soviet playbooks.  Given the poll numbers about how Rs feel about this, you can have unity, or you can give Trump his consequences....pick 1.....but this is just destroying your message.


I'm curious -- put aside all the strategy, the polls etc, do you think Trump should be held accountable?  I mean I completely agree there's a component of strategy, but I'm curious what your stance is if you put all of that aside.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You're babbling.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm curious -- put aside all the strategy, the polls etc, do you think Trump should be held accountable?  I mean I completely agree there's a component of strategy, but I'm curious what your stance is if you put all of that aside.


I think he should resign.  I'd certainly support censure for conduct unbecoming the office.  I don't think the charge, though, of "inciting a riot" is correct....he never ordered them to seize the Capitol and told them to stand down.  You can't charge him for the Republican objectors...they didn't charge the D ones in 2016.  If he's committed a crime he should be prosecuted.  The most likely area to charge him would be for what he did with Mike Pence (if he ordered Pence to disregard the Constitution)....however that would require the cooperation of Mike Pence.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden's theme for the inauguration is apparently going to be "America United".   This will be occurring (unless they delay it til after the first 100 days) at the same time they are trying to impeach Trump.  Seriously a lesson right out of the Soviet playbooks.  Given the poll numbers about how Rs feel about this, you can have unity, or you can give Trump his consequences....pick 1.....but this is just destroying your message.


Seriously? The Soviet playbook involves getting into power, using propaganda to whip their supporters into a froth, and then using their goons to literally take out anyone in government who resists (you know, like Congresspeople), and trying to take control over how information is disseminated, like the Bronze Baboon amd@Desert Hound are proposing. Are you seriously this stupid or is the Russian embassy paying you $5 a post. Probably the latter, given you don’t actually have a law job and breaking quarantine so you can spread covid in Utah and then bring it back gets expensive quickly.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The Rs are tearing themselves apart......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349092249213272067


No, magats are tearing everything apart, at least they’re trying. Real classy of AZ magat GOP to go after John McCain’s widow. But we all know they only like wives who married people who didn’t get captured, and who were hookers.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

I swear people are losing their minds on both the extremes.....


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden's theme for the inauguration is apparently going to be "America United".   This will be occurring (unless they delay it til after the first 100 days) at the same time they are trying to impeach Trump.  Seriously a lesson right out of the Soviet playbooks.  Given the poll numbers about how Rs feel about this, you can have unity, or you can give Trump his consequences....pick 1.....but this is just destroying your message.


"America United - (except Trump)" maybe that's their plan!


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I think he should resign.  I'd certainly support censure for conduct unbecoming the office.  I don't think the charge, though, of "inciting a riot" is correct....he never ordered them to seize the Capitol and told them to stand down.  You can't charge him for the Republican objectors...they didn't charge the D ones in 2016.  If he's committed a crime he should be prosecuted.  The most likely area to charge him would be for what he did with Mike Pence (if he ordered Pence to disregard the Constitution)....however that would require the cooperation of Mike Pence.


He incited a riot, resulting in death and destruction.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> He incited a riot, resulting in death and destruction.


I'm a strict constructionalist.  To incite a riot, you have to go out and order your people to riot.  I'd even give it to you if he sat there and did nothing while they rioted but he specifically said go home.

Otherwise Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders need to be held to account for what happened to the Republican legislators that were, you know, actually shot.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> He incited a riot, resulting in death and destruction.


I am curious as to how he incited a riot. 

You have the transcript. Quote or quotes please?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm a strict constructionalist.  To incite a riot, you have to go out and order your people to riot.  I'd even give it to you if he sat there and did nothing while they rioted but he specifically said go home.
> 
> Otherwise Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders need to be held to account for what happened to the Republican legislators that were, you know, actually shot.


The perpetrator doesn't have to tell them to tear down fences and kill somebody, but if that is the result of the actions he encouraged, he is liable for those results.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No at the time there was a debate (marked by the 2 radical differences in approach from Compuserve and Prodigy)....the question which was asked then is are they a publisher or are they a bulletin board.


OK, so the premise that ISPs are distributors was carried on to social media companies and now we are where we are. If 230 is just repealed then that brings more than just social media companies into play then, no? Wouldn't that also make Cox or Comcast potentially liable for the content as they are the providers?

Just an an aside, you can't moderate the social networks. AI can do some, but that's not perfect. If moderation (& so perfection) is a standard, they are done. It wouldn't bother me mind, as my life would go on the same irrespective - just a little less timely (social) news from far away.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 12, 2021)

t


EOTL said:


> Seriously? The Soviet playbook involves getting into power, using propaganda to whip their supporters into a froth, and then using their goons to literally take out anyone in government who resists (you know, like Congresspeople), and trying to take control over how information is disseminated, like the Bronze Baboon amd@Desert Hound are proposing. Are you seriously this stupid or is the Russian embassy paying you $5 a post. Probably the latter, given you don’t actually have a law job and breaking quarantine so you can spread covid in Utah and then bring it back gets expensive quickly.


Don't the ruskies use tank and machine guns and stuff for this type shenanigans?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> The perpetrator doesn't have to tell them to tear down fences and kill somebody, but if that is the result of the actions he encouraged, he is liable for those results.


What actions did he encourage...quote?

You seem to be wanting to hold him to a negligence standard.   That he should have foreseen that by riling up his audience they would storm the Capitol That's not the standard for most crimes..."high crimes and misdemeanors".  You have to you know...actually incite.  Apparently even the Capitol leadership didn't foresee this as a possible because then there would have been adequate security.  Now if you can show proof the FBI warned him that an insurrection was afoot and then were going to go seize the Capitol, and he went out there anyways, that's a different story.

And I'd be open to your argument more if then you hold Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders liable under the same.  They did as much.  But we all know you won't do that...you just want to Magoo.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> OK, so the premise that ISPs are distributors was carried on to social media companies and now we are where we are. If 230 is just repealed then that brings more than just social media companies into play then, no? Wouldn't that also make Cox or Comcast potentially liable for the content as they are the providers?
> 
> Just an an aside, you can't moderate the social networks. AI can do some, but that's not perfect. If moderation (& so perfection) is a standard, they are done. It wouldn't bother me mind, as my life would go on the same irrespective - just a little less timely (social) news from far away.


On a smaller scale, volunteer moderation works well.  Just look at the difference between Bigsoccer discussions (moderated by volunteers) and those here (especially before Dominic kicked out the worst offenders).


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What actions did he encourage...quote?
> 
> You seem to be wanting to hold him to a negligence standard.   That he should have foreseen that by riling up his audience they would storm the Capitol That's not the standard for most crimes..."high crimes and misdemeanors".  You have to you know...actually incite.  Apparently even the Capitol leadership didn't foresee this as a possible because then there would have been adequate security.  Now if you can show proof the FBI warned him that an insurrection was afoot and then were going to go seize the Capitol, and he went out there anyways, that's a different story.
> 
> And I'd be open to your argument more if then you hold Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders liable under the same.  They did as much.  But we all know you won't do that...you just want to Magoo.


"They did as much"?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I swear people are losing their minds on both the extremes.....


Project Veritas? For real....come on.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> "They did as much"?


"Roadhog!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Project Veritas? For real....come on.


You are disputing the veracity of the recording?  If so on what basis?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> "Roadhog!"


You're babbling again.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You're babbling again.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are disputing the veracity of the recording?  If so on what basis?


I pretty much ignore anything that comes out of Project Veritas as it's a well known propaganda machine.   I don't even want to give them the stats.

They are part of the reason we're even in this mess....per top line on wikipedia:

"*Project Veritas* is an American far-right[18] activist group founded by James O'Keefe in June 2010.[23] The group uses undercover techniques to reveal supposed liberal bias and corruption,[19] and is known for producing deceptively edited videos about media organizations, left-leaning groups,[31] and debunked conspiracy theories.[35]"


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The Rs are tearing themselves apart......
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349092249213272067


The AZ Republican party has been taken over by extremists. If they think this will get the vote back, they are delusional, which they are obviously. Some of the things they included in Cindy McCain's "memo" are pretty sickening given the age (they go back to late eighties/early nineties) and what they are insinuating. It shows the despicable level they are at. Flake is a conservative Republican, and acted honorably in this. He's also a Mormon, which is a large community in AZ. I'm not a huge fan of Ducey, but again he's clearly a conservative Republican.

They've caused the R's to lose 2 senate seats and a presidential election in 2 years and don't realize that they are the reason. AZ could comfortably go red again, but not while these idiots are in charge of the GOP, they'll push it the other way by putting up extremist candidates.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I pretty much ignore anything that comes out of Project Veritas as it's a well known propaganda machine.   I don't even want to give them the stats.
> 
> They are part of the reason we're even in this mess....per top line on wikipedia:
> 
> "*Project Veritas* is an American far-right[18] activist group founded by James O'Keefe in June 2010.[23] The group uses undercover techniques to reveal supposed liberal bias and corruption,[19] and is known for producing deceptively edited videos about media organizations, left-leaning groups,[31] and debunked conspiracy theories.[35]"


So you are o.k. only with left-leaning activists groups?  You aren't disputing the veracity of the video and what was said?  You aren't taking a stand against the awfulness of what was said?  You prefer to just bury your head in the sand and ignore what was said because you don't want to give the source credence?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Huge....bigley....









						Mitch McConnell believes Trump committed impeachable offences, report says.
					

House set to vote against president for unprecedented second time on Wednesday




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> On a smaller scale, volunteer moderation works well.  Just look at the difference between Bigsoccer discussions (moderated by volunteers) and those here (especially before Dominic kicked out the worst offenders).


Sure, but that doesn't work at scale. Billions of daily posts can't be moderated without automation and even with it, it won't be perfect or anywhere close.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Huge....bigley....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He appears to be offering implicit cover. He's right that the GOP needs to reset.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The AZ Republican party has been taken over by extremists. If they think this will get the vote back, they are delusional, which they are obviously. Some of the things they included in Cindy McCain's "memo" are pretty sickening given the age (they go back to late eighties/early nineties) and what they are insinuating. It shows the despicable level they are at. Flake is a conservative Republican, and acted honorably in this. He's also a Mormon, which is a large community in AZ. I'm not a huge fan of Ducey, but again he's clearly a conservative Republican.
> 
> They've caused the R's to lose 2 senate seats and a presidential election in 2 years and don't realize that they are the reason. AZ could comfortably go red again, but not while these idiots are in charge of the GOP, they'll push it the other way by putting up extremist candidates.


Add - the AZ election commission will soon being redistricting for the next 10 years. Given that AZ electors made this an independent body, it will be interesting how they potentially redo districts. I can't see the Dems losing anything, the opposite in fact, so expect lots of litigation from the GOP. This could obv. impact on the House in 2 years, which is already pretty close.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Huge....bigley....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe it is "bigly".  Unless you meant this --





__





						Urban Dictionary: Bigley
					

A shot of tequilla, followed by a shot of sambuca, finishing up with a jagerbomb, taken in quick succession. So called because it takes your head off.




					www.urbandictionary.com


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Sure, but that doesn't work at scale. Billions of daily posts can't be moderated without automation and even with it, it won't be perfect or anywhere close.


Automated real-time language translation used to be science fiction.  Now it's common.

I used to joke that "artificial intelligence" was actually an "intelligent artifice".  I hadn't realized that the real computing power would not be in your hand, but in the cloud.  The thing in your hand (or lap) was just the terminal.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> He appears to be offering implicit cover. He's right that the GOP needs to reset.


He's personally upset and blames Trump for Georgia.
Also he's looking to take Trump off the table in 2024 by barring him for further office.
He also knows it derails Biden's unity message and the first 100 days.  

He's misreading the mood of the R voters though.  It will kill the Republican Party.


----------



## watfly (Jan 12, 2021)

Live updates: Pence says he will not invoke 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office
					

Pence’s letter comes as House Democrats are calling on him to invoke the 25th Amendment or they will begin impeachment proceedings.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> So you are o.k. only with left-leaning activists groups?  You aren't disputing the veracity of the video and what was said?  You aren't taking a stand against the awfulness of what was said?  You prefer to just bury your head in the sand and ignore what was said because you don't want to give the source credence?


Where's that jump to conclusion doormat? I don't like propaganda machines from any side. 

Project Veritas is scum.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

McConnell is said to be pleased about impeachment, believing it will be easier to purge Trump from the G.O.P.
					






					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Where's that jump to conclusion doormat? I don't like propaganda machines from any side.
> 
> Project Veritas is scum.


Fair if you hold both sides to the same standard, but what was said is truly awful, and again being used as an example that the extremes on both sides have lost their minds.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Project Veritas? For real....come on.


So you don't think the guy on tape saying that actually said that? 

It is a cop out to say we don't like the source of the tape therefore we can ignore it. Watch and listen to what the guy says.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> They've caused the R's to lose 2 senate seats and a presidential election in 2 years and don't realize that they are the reason. AZ could comfortably go red again, but not while these idiots are in charge of the GOP, they'll push it the other way by putting up extremist candidates.


To be fair the reason for both loses is that the Rs put up a terrible candidate. McSally lost in the special election after McCain died, and then that is the candidate again?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Given that AZ electors made this an independent body, it will be interesting how they potentially redo districts.


I am always skeptical about independent bodies so to speak. In the end they are still selected by politicians. And generally speaking if you go state by state looking where it has been done, the members are all rather well connected. 

I am not against the concept. I just think people see independent and go perfect, politics has been taken out of the process when that is not the case.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 12, 2021)

Anyone's Parler App working?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Fair if you hold both sides to the same standard, but what was said is truly awful, and again being used as an example that the extremes on both sides have lost their minds.


I kinda look at it this way:  Both sides are tired of their extremist.  This is a move back to the center by moderates.  Agreeing that trump is the issue is good first step.  This likely scares the crap out of both sides of the extremist equation, who make their money by not treading water in the middle of the pool. As much as mitch is hated, he's a pretty savvy operator (as is pelosi and schumer).  All three want nothing to do with their more radical factions and would prefer to go back to the good ol days where they could argue  then pass a bill that met everyone's pork requirements.  

Making it impossible for trump to return center stage is a concept that both sides are agreeable to.  

Of course, the wildcard is the American People, as it should be.  70M+ voted for trump, for various reasons.  Many for valid policy reasons, many for the idea of "trumpism" (whatever that really means, never fully figured that out).


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> To be fair the reason for both loses is that the Rs put up a terrible candidate. McSally lost in the special election after McCain died, and then that is the candidate again?


Agreed, because the extremists have more sway in the primaries. Flake admitted he couldn't win the GOP primary, so he didn't run. Flake would have won the race if he were the GOP candidate, IMO. He would pull in Rs and independents. The last time I looked AZ electors were about evenly split as registered R/D/I. Independents probably swing more R if there is a reasonable candidate. To win state wide in AZ, you have to appeal to the I's.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I kinda look at it this way:  Both sides are tired of their extremist.  This is a move back to the center by moderates.  Agreeing that trump is the issue is good first step.  This likely scares the crap out of both sides of the extremist equation, who make their money by not treading water in the middle of the pool. As much as mitch is hated, he's a pretty savvy operator (as is pelosi and schumer).  All three want nothing to do with their more radical factions and would prefer to go back to the good ol days where they could argue  then pass a bill that met everyone's pork requirements.
> 
> Making it impossible for trump to return center stage is a concept that both sides are agreeable to.
> 
> Of course, the wildcard is the American People, as it should be.  70M+ voted for trump, for various reasons.  Many for valid policy reasons, many for the idea of "trumpism" (whatever that really means, never fully figured that out).


Actually only 30 million voted for The Marmalade
Magat formerly of Manhattan.  The rest were all fraudulent as part of a failed effort to steal the election. I have all the best evidence to prove it. Beautiful evidence. People are saying it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm a strict constructionalist.  To incite a riot, you have to go out and order your people to riot.  I'd even give it to you if he sat there and did nothing while they rioted but he specifically said go home.
> 
> Otherwise Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders need to be held to account for what happened to the Republican legislators that were, you know, actually shot.


trump like mob leaders knows how to give orders without stating specifics. Gotti lived in the public eye as did Capone and Charles Manson didn’t actually kill anyone.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 12, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I am always skeptical about independent bodies so to speak. In the end they are still selected by politicians. And generally speaking if you go state by state looking where it has been done, the members are all rather well connected.
> 
> I am not against the concept. I just think people see independent and go perfect, politics has been taken out of the process when that is not the case.


My rule of thumb would be that if neither party is happy, then they are probably doing their job correctly . I get what you are saying though, but I think they did a decent job in 2010, and am hopeful for more of the same this time around. More competitive seats drives centrist positions as each candidate has to broaden their appeal.

In my perfect scenario, every district would be competitive. That would likely keep most extremists out and be better for everyone.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 12, 2021)

Crackaz!!!!!


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 12, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> Crackaz!!!!!


I can't even tell what she's ranting in favor of???


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

I honestly can't believe Twitter just tweeted this. But Twitter just tweeted this.
					

Twitter really just tweeted this in the middle of the conservative purge:




					notthebee.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 12, 2021)

I like the headline. Should have called Penn and Teller.









						Lawyer for Florida man seen at Capitol riot with Pelosi’s lectern says photo a problem: ‘I’m not a magician’
					

The lawyer for a Florida man pictured last week inside the U.S. Capitol carrying the lectern of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi as rioters stormed the building told reporters Monday that the photo may be problematic for his client’s defense and acknowledged that he is "not a magician."




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I kinda look at it this way:  Both sides are tired of their extremist.  This is a move back to the center by moderates.  Agreeing that trump is the issue is good first step.  This likely scares the crap out of both sides of the extremist equation, who make their money by not treading water in the middle of the pool. As much as mitch is hated, he's a pretty savvy operator (as is pelosi and schumer).  All three want nothing to do with their more radical factions and would prefer to go back to the good ol days where they could argue  then pass a bill that met everyone's pork requirements.
> 
> Making it impossible for trump to return center stage is a concept that both sides are agreeable to.
> 
> Of course, the wildcard is the American People, as it should be.  70M+ voted for trump, for various reasons.  Many for valid policy reasons, many for the idea of "trumpism" (whatever that really means, never fully figured that out).


Well the R party majority still backs him.  Mitch is calculating it's better to remove him off the 2024 stage than deal with a break in the party.

The problem further with this is one of the reasons we have problems on the far right and the far left is that people are tired of the centrist establishment politicians that make their deals with the crony capitalists, protect the interests of the wealthy, have more in common with other globalists in Hong Kong London or wherever, send other's children to die in foreign wars while sending their own to Ivy league schools, and enrich themselves (as Clinton, Obama, and the Bidens did after office...maybe the Bushes too...don't know).  Further, Biden (any more than say Romney) is not a great messenger to resolve this since, as a career politician, it's the world he is embedded in.  My prediction is it will remove Trump from the table (stab the tyrant Caesar) but it doesn't resolve our problems....it only deepens them (and Trump literally has potential Augusti in his own family, though Anthony and Brutus are far more scary).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well the R party majority still backs him.  Mitch is calculating it's better to remove him off the 2024 stage than deal with a break in the party.
> 
> The problem further with this is one of the reasons we have problems on the far right and the far left is that people are tired of the centrist establishment politicians that make their deals with the crony capitalists, protect the interests of the wealthy, have more in common with other globalists in Hong Kong London or wherever, send other's children to die in foreign wars while sending their own to Ivy league schools, and enrich themselves (as Clinton, Obama, and the Bidens did after office...maybe the Bushes too...don't know).  Further, Biden (any more than say Romney) is not a great messenger to resolve this since, as a career politician, it's the world he is embedded in.  My prediction is it will remove Trump from the table (stab the tyrant Caesar) but it doesn't resolve our problems....it only deepens them (and Trump literally has potential Augusti in his own family, though Anthony and Brutus are far more scary).


p.s. my elder brother worked for the Romney campaign (he also went to the same school at the same time as Barack Obama...he has a few stories).  There was a moment there when Candy Crowley in that debate handed Romney a softball, asking about introspection about the Republican party.  What he should have said is: "For too long the Republican Party has cared about the rich and powerful, and not for working Americans..." and gone from there.  If he had said that, and pivoted what the Republican Party was, he would have won that election.  But that's not Romney, and he would never have thought to say that.

This is about the disconnect (on both the right and left) between the elites and the people.  Sure the Antifa rioters/Capitol rioters are vile people who engaged in crimes.  But there's a lot of people on both the left (starting with the "mostly peaceful" BLM protestors) and right (including the many people at the Trump rally who didn't bust into the Capitol) who really hate the elite, which is where the primary political problem is.  Until the center does something to address this issue, asking for centrism and unity isn't going to get us anywhere.  It's just going to make the public even more primed for the next demagogue.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> So you are o.k. only with left-leaning activists groups?  You aren't disputing the veracity of the video and what was said?  You aren't taking a stand against the awfulness of what was said?  You prefer to just bury your head in the sand and ignore what was said because you don't want to give the source credence?


The context appears to be a party among friends where they are having fun with political jokes.  Is there any reason to believe that from any previous speech, writings, or political positions that he was serious about throwing Molotov cocktails at the white house?


----------



## notintheface (Jan 12, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> Anyone's Parler App working?


Hee hee hee! Hope you enjoy getting doxxed! All your personal info is owned by pretty much every hacker on the planet right now!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm a strict constructionalist.  To incite a riot, you have to go out and order your people to riot.  I'd even give it to you if he sat there and did nothing while they rioted but he specifically said go home.
> 
> Otherwise Maxine Waters and Bernie Sanders need to be held to account for what happened to the Republican legislators that were, you know, actually shot.


Grace Karen is calling Liz Cheney a liar.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. my elder brother worked for the Romney campaign (he also went to the same school at the same time as Barack Obama...he has a few stories).  There was a moment there when Candy Crowley in that debate handed Romney a softball, asking about introspection about the Republican party.  What he should have said is: "For too long the Republican Party has cared about the rich and powerful, and not for working Americans..." and gone from there.  If he had said that, and pivoted what the Republican Party was, he would have won that election.  But that's not Romney, and he would never have thought to say that.
> 
> This is about the disconnect (on both the right and left) between the elites and the people.  Sure the Antifa rioters/Capitol rioters are vile people who engaged in crimes.  But there's a lot of people on both the left (starting with the "mostly peaceful" BLM protestors) and right (including the many people at the Trump rally who didn't bust into the Capitol) who really hate the elite, which is where the primary political problem is.  Until the center does something to address this issue, asking for centrism and unity isn't going to get us anywhere.  It's just going to make the public even more primed for the next demagogue.


Wow, it sounds like your brother actually did something with his life.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> The context appears to be a party among friends where they are having fun with political jokes.  Is there any reason to believe that from any previous speech, writings, or political positions that he was serious about throwing Molotov cocktails at the white house?


Wow your idea of fun political jokes is pretty out there.  You must like to really yuck it up in the Magoo household.  Guess a good polish joke between friends would be alright too?  I'd always figured you for a friendly loveable Magoo type (the character really is fitting to you), but perhaps you are more disturbed than I really thought (particularly with the line of taking away people's kids in the video).  Hilarious jokes there


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 12, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump like mob leaders knows how to give orders without stating specifics. Gotti lived in the public eye as did Capone and Charles Manson didn’t actually kill anyone.


Without specifics, like “fire the investigator going after my son or we wont give you the billion dollars.  And if you don’t believe me, call my boss, Barack Obama.”

That kind of ambiguity?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Wow your idea of fun political jokes is pretty out there.  You must like to really yuck it up in the Magoo household.  Guess a good polish joke between friends would be alright too?  I'd always figured you for a friendly loveable Magoo type (the character really is fitting to you), but perhaps you are more disturbed than I really thought (particularly with the line of taking away people's kids in the video).  Hilarious jokes there


You're still out there with the charges of racism?  I thought lawyers had some ethical constraints.  Are you actually a member of the California Bar?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Actually only 30 million voted for The Marmalade
> Magat formerly of Manhattan.  The rest were all fraudulent as part of a failed effort to steal the election. I have all the best evidence to prove it. Beautiful evidence. People are saying it.


as my kids say : Bot


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You're still out there with the charges of racism?  I thought lawyers had some ethical constraints.  Are you actually a member of the California Bar?


[Looking at a dog] "My that's one ugly child!"

Still having trouble seeing which way is up and which way is down huh?  Still struggling with that comprehension?  You so are my loveable Mr. Magoo....whew for a second there I thought we might actually have to worry about you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Even giving up the chance to maybe be named in the history books as the 1 day President.  Didn't give into Trump's crazy order nor Nancy's crazy demands, thinking of the precedent it would set for the Republic.  There's at least one decent Roman left.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349157019832479750


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> [Looking at a dog] "My that's one ugly child!"
> 
> Still having trouble seeing which way is up and which way is down huh?  Still struggling with that comprehension?  You so are my loveable Mr. Magoo....whew for a second there I thought we might actually have to worry about you.


So you are not going to deny that you falsely called me a racist?  Nor admit it and apologize?  Looks like you are just going to ignore it and hope it goes away.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Even giving up the chance to maybe be named in the history books as the 1 day President.  Didn't give into Trump's crazy order nor Nancy's crazy demands, thinking of the precedent it would set for the Republic.  There's at least one decent Roman left.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349157019832479750


There is nothing decent about codling criminals.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> So you are not going to deny that you falsely called me a racist?  Nor admit it and apologize?  Looks like you are just going to ignore it and hope it goes away.


I can't help it if you can't follow along.  We know the Magoos are a stubborn mistaken sort.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> There is nothing decent about codling criminals.


"My God Magoo, you've done it again!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> So you are not going to deny that you falsely called me a racist?  Nor admit it and apologize?  Looks like you are just going to ignore it and hope it goes away.


p.s. if you had shown an ounce of grace or decency to me, I would have been more than happy to apologize to you, even if through your own thickness you have no ability to understand what's going on and misconstrue things.  Calling you Magoo is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt: that you are lost, stubborn and confused harmless old sort.  Otherwise I'd just call you jackass.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Even giving up the chance to maybe be named in the history books as the 1 day President.  Didn't give into Trump's crazy order nor Nancy's crazy demands, thinking of the precedent it would set for the Republic.  There's at least one decent Roman left.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349157019832479750


Ancient Romans weren’t so homophobic.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 12, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Hee hee hee! Hope you enjoy getting doxxed! All your personal info is owned by pretty much every hacker on the planet right now!


I could 100% care less about getting doxxed. I’m not a Trumper. Always said I hate the man but I support his conservative policies. I also never came on hear complaining about the results. I accept the outcome.

There is a difference and in America we do not silence people for opposing views. We do not silence 74 million people for 0.00002% of that group.

Liberal media painting 74 million people is not unifying especially when they are silenced for something they did not do.

To put this in perspective for some of you simple minded folks, think about this. There were over 300,000 protesters last week. Lets give the benefit of the doubt and say 2,000 actually pushed through the gates and into the Capitol. I think that’s a stretch however. Soooo 2,000/300,000 is 0.6%. Now let’s think critically. Its safe to say the most hardcore supporters were at the event. One could estimate, but that percentage would go WAY down nationwide. The majority, like myself, voted for Trump because they are conservative and chose him over Biden. 

This is why people like myself are upset. Painted by a broad brush and being silenced for such a minuscule population.

It’s wrong. We live in America. Not China. Not Russia.

Have compassion for others. Do not judge.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Opinion | Politics Has No Place for Violence
					

The man who shot me in 2017 and the Capitol Hill rioters all were radicalized by extreme rhetoric.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> I could 100% care less about getting doxxed. I’m not a Trumper. Always said I hate the man but I support his conservative policies. I also never came on hear complaining about the results. I accept the outcome.
> 
> There is a difference and in America we do not silence people for opposing views. We do not silence 74 million people for 0.00002% of that group.
> 
> ...


No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse.

When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself.  Second, it also means you’re willing to accept the worst, most despicable behavior in the history of the presidency for what, so you can obtain slightly less despicable things like fighting marriage equality, or locking chilldren in cages, or “when the looting starts the shooting starts” unless you’re white people staging an insirrection and beating a police officer to death worhcan American flag.

If you want unity and no judgment, start by apologizing for what you did to get us here instead of demanding it from others. You take an insurrection and use it to feel sorry for yourself that people demand accountability. You have none. The American Way.

Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, Lisa Murkowski, I’ll cut them slack.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Not seeing a lot of remorse from any of the magats who are asking for unity. Just gimme gimme gimme.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I can't help it if you can't follow along.  We know the Magoos are a stubborn mistaken sort.


I'm following along just fine.  Are you going to admit your error and apologize?


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse.
> 
> When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself.  Second, it also means you’re willing to accept the worst, most despicable behavior in the history of the presidency for what, so you can obtain slightly less despicable things like fighting marriage equality, or locking chilldren in cages, or “when the looting starts the shooting starts” unless you’re white people staging an insirrection and beating a police officer to death worhcan American flag.
> 
> ...


EOTL’s version of ‘basket of deplorables’.

Painting opposing views or policies as solely MAGAT or Trumpers...aka deplorables didn’t work out so well last time.

The victorious side (on the presidential election, at least) should turn down the rhetoric and political bigotry.  Both for their own prosperity and that of the country.

The political hand grande that was the Trump candidacy in 2016 wouldn’t have been possible without such sentiments in the past. 

Bi-partisanship, haven’t heard much of that in the last 12+ year


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. if you had shown an ounce of grace or decency to me, I would have been more than happy to apologize to you, even if through your own thickness you have no ability to understand what's going on and misconstrue things.  Calling you Magoo is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt: that you are lost, stubborn and confused harmless old sort.  Otherwise I'd just call you jackass.


When you find yourself in a hole, stop shoveling.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I'm following along just fine.  Are you going to admit your error and apologize?


No, you're not or you wouldn't be asking that question.  Are you going to start behaving like a decent human being?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> When you find yourself in a hole, stop shoveling.


When you find you are lost, get a map

"Go away club sandwich"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349183119975440393


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No, you're not or you wouldn't be asking that question.  Are you going to start behaving like a decent human being?


What have I done that is not decent?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> EOTL’s version of ‘basket of deplorables’.
> 
> Painting opposing views or policies as solely MAGAT or Trumpers...aka deplorables didn’t work out so well last time.
> 
> ...


Nope. Not until magats repent and agree to serve up their Bronze Baboon for justice. If you want unity what are you going to do to achieve it? It better be best. Bigly.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349183119975440393


Apology accepted.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> What have I done that is not decent?


Thank you...funniest thing I heard all day long

                   

You are clueless Magoo.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Not seeing a lot of remorse from any of the magats who are asking for unity. Just gimme gimme gimme.


Maybe if I understood your definition of magats better this would make sense.

Crazy buffalo shaman?  Yeah, they’re not calling for unity.

Joe Biden - Yes
Centrists from both parties - Yes
Republicans who denounce violence - Yes


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Nope. Not until magats repent and agree to serve up their Bronze Baboon for justice. If you want unity what are you going to do to achieve it? It better be best. Bigly.


Again... definition of magats please

BTW, magats is quite frustrating to type as autocorrect really wants to change it.  I assume you’ve overridden the spelling often enough that it is no longer an issue for you !


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Thank you...funniest thing I heard all day long
> 
> 
> 
> You are clueless Magoo.


So far you have nothing.  You are off to a flying stop.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> So far you have nothing.  You are off to a flying stop.


Flying stop?  I thought that's what you normally do with your cute little yellow car.  I love your theme song by the way.  Did you ever think growing up you'd actually have one?  Accomplishment to be proud of indeed.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Flying stop?  I thought that's what you normally do with your cute little yellow car.  I love your theme song by the way.  Did you ever think growing up you'd actually have one?  Accomplishment to be proud of indeed.


You can post all the Magoo cartoons you wish.  None of that will excuse your behavior.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> You can post all the Magoo cartoons you wish.  None of that will excuse your behavior.


I deal fairly with plenty of folks.  I believe in treating people decently and have tolerated you despite your trolling me for a long time because you occassionally make a decent point.  I never attack first.  When I'm wrong, I'm the first to say so. But I also believe at a certain point in giving as good as I get and my siblings and I (all black belts mind you) have never walked away from a fight.

But you sir are an ass, showing a profound lack of respect for not only myself or others.  You know you are a troll.  You know what you are doing.  You don't engage in honest debate, but just throw around insults such as your "coocoo" and belittle people.  So I choose to believe you are a harmless old fool that can't comprehend things and is just lost.  Because the alternative is just worse: that you are a jackass and a psychopath that likes behaving that way (yeah, I'm looking at you EOTL or whatever your other nontroll account name is....wink wink).

As an aside, it still shocks me so many of you on the left think it's o.k. to behave this way.  I could even have a decent dialogue with the outlaw, who showed me courtesy from time to time.  Only Sheriff Joe on the right was as bad as you guys.  My pet theory is that there must be some screw lose or something that makes you all behave that way.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 12, 2021)

Would you two just kiss and make up?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I deal fairly with plenty of folks.  I believe in treating people decently and have tolerated you despite your trolling me for a long time because you occassionally make a decent point.  I never attack first.  When I'm wrong, I'm the first to say so. But I also believe at a certain point in giving as good as I get and my siblings and I (all black belts mind you) have never walked away from a fight.
> 
> But you sir are an ass, showing a profound lack of respect for not only myself or others.  You know you are a troll.  You know what you are doing.  You don't engage in honest debate, but just throw around insults such as your "coocoo" and belittle people.  So I choose to believe you are a harmless old fool that can't comprehend things and is just lost.  Because the alternative is just worse: that you are a jackass and a psychopath that likes behaving that way (yeah, I'm looking at you EOTL or whatever your other nontroll account name is....wink wink).
> 
> As an aside, it still shocks me so many of you on the left think it's o.k. to behave this way.  I could even have a decent dialogue with the outlaw, who showed me courtesy from time to time.  Only Sheriff Joe on the right was as bad as you guys.  My pet theory is that there must be some screw lose or something that makes you all behave that way.


“So many” apparently consists of me and @espola. I think we have a ways to go before we get to the level of Outlaw, Sheriff Joe, Tyrone, Willie, Ricky Fandango, MSK357, and Lavey29. I’m sure I’m missing some. In the end, you just don’t like that I play like a magat and you disagree with espola and can’t handle it that he points out when you’re wrong.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Would you two just kiss and make up?


Would love too.  People like dad are honorable and we were able to hit a detente.  I'm willing to meet anyone half way.  Doubt we can say the same for Magoo.  Have offered him numerous off ramps at various times.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I deal fairly with plenty of folks.  I believe in treating people decently and have tolerated you despite your trolling me for a long time because you occassionally make a decent point.  I never attack first.  When I'm wrong, I'm the first to say so. But I also believe at a certain point in giving as good as I get and my siblings and I (all black belts mind you) have never walked away from a fight.
> 
> But you sir are an ass, showing a profound lack of respect for not only myself or others.  You know you are a troll.  You know what you are doing.  You don't engage in honest debate, but just throw around insults such as your "coocoo" and belittle people.  So I choose to believe you are a harmless old fool that can't comprehend things and is just lost.  Because the alternative is just worse: that you are a jackass and a psychopath that likes behaving that way (yeah, I'm looking at you EOTL or whatever your other nontroll account name is....wink wink).
> 
> As an aside, it still shocks me so many of you on the left think it's o.k. to behave this way.  I could even have a decent dialogue with the outlaw, who showed me courtesy from time to time.  Only Sheriff Joe on the right was as bad as you guys.  My pet theory is that there must be some screw lose or something that makes you all behave that way.


The only thing you got right about me is that I am old.  

I already cautioned you about digging a deeper hole.  It appears that you just can't help yourself.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> The only thing you got right about me is that I am old.
> 
> I already cautioned you about digging a deeper hole.  It appears that you just can't help yourself.


Same old Magoo.  I'll just pat you on the head and sigh.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Would love too.  People like dad are honorable and we were able to hit a detente.  I'm willing to meet anyone half way.  Doubt we can say the same for Magoo.  Have offered him numerous off ramps at various times.


The ball is in your court.  Just admit your error and apologize.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> The ball is in your court.  Just admit your error and apologize.


Told you.  Happy to as long as you agree to apologize and behave decently going forward without all the insults.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Would you two just kiss and make up?


Seriously... I had to go back about 7 pages to figure out what this was about.

A comment about a BLM-antifa event with an arrest of an individual who was both unlawful then as he was at the capital.

Can we just agree he’s an accused criminal and move on?

Grace apparently poked fun at the ‘he was BLM’ comment with a ‘that’s racist’ retort to implying BLM is more criminal in behavior than antifa. Downward spiral to here.

espola references posts as ‘coocoo’ or ‘nonsense’, neither of which are ‘not descent’ behavior... dismissive, yes.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Told you.  Happy to as long as you agree to apologize and behave decently going forward without all the insults.


Apologize for what?  When you got all huffy, I listed 3 insults that I could have used but didn't out of decency.  Then you listed three about me.  The difference between the two lists is that anyone who has read this forum for any time knows that your list about me was not believable.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> Seriously... I had to go back about 7 pages to figure out what this was about.
> 
> A comment about a BLM-antifa event with an arrest of an individual who was both unlawful then as he was at the capital.
> 
> ...


Oh with me he's done a lot worse....it's the constant needling from not self-aware, so called Con law expert, the clients remark, the constant nonsense, the unhinged.  He's clearly been trolling me.  In the current thread it actually started with him mocking me for claiming I was a con law expert but making a mistake about the amount needed to remove a rep.  I owned up to the error, but asked him not to mischaracterize me as claiming I was a con law expert (which was clearly intended to belittle me).  He didn't take the off ramp and doubled down instead claiming I didn't even know the basics.  

If he apologizes for that, I'm more than happy to apologize right back and let it go.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Apologize for what?  When you got all huffy, I listed 3 insults that I could have used but didn't out of decency.  Then you listed three about me.  The difference between the two lists is that anyone who has read this forum for any time knows that your list about me was not believable.


Hilarious.  You are a comedian now too.  With all the nonsense and coocoos you throw around here.  And you think that's just perfectly acceptable.  Awful.  And then we wonder with behavior like this why the country is in such a mess.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> Seriously... I had to go back about 7 pages to figure out what this was about.
> 
> A comment about a BLM-antifa event with an arrest of an individual who was both unlawful then as he was at the capital.
> 
> ...


I think your last sentence's structure is confusing, but not coocoo or nonsense.

As for G's implications of me being a racist -- she has so far refused to retract and apologize, instead just piling on more unfounded accusations.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh with me he's done a lot worse....it's the constant needling from not self-aware, so called Con law expert, the clients remark, the constant nonsense, the unhinged.  He's clearly been trolling me.  In the current thread it actually started with him mocking me for claiming I was a con law expert but making a mistake about the amount needed to remove a rep.  I owned up to the error, but asked him not to mischaracterize me as claiming I was a con law expert (which was clearly intended to belittle me).  He didn't take the off ramp and doubled down instead claiming I didn't even know the basics.
> 
> If he apologizes for that, I'm more than happy to apologize right back and let it go.


I'm just suggesting corrections to your obvious errors.  At one point I had to quote the First Amendment, which you don't have to have a specialty on Constitutional law to understand -- it's plain English.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I think your last sentence's structure is confusing, but not coocoo or nonsense.
> 
> As for G's implications of me being a racist -- she has so far refused to retract and apologize, instead just piling on more unfounded accusations.


I never accused you of being a racist Magoo.  No one would seriously believe that about you.  The first was a quip that went totally over your head (because you are so lost and confused)...on a meta level it was a comment about how in our society it's acceptable right now to criticize Antifa but not BLM (hence those of us that conflate leftist violence, hoping to avoid a discussion about racism, just blame Antifa).

The second was a question to you.  Do you honestly think this guys jokes about reprogramming the children of Republicans are funny or acceptable.  Would you feel the same way about someone making a polish joke, or a Mexican joke?  Are those acceptable just because they are "jokes".

I know all this is hard for you to wrap your head around....


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I'm just suggesting corrections to your obvious errors.  At one point I had to quote the First Amendment, which you don't have to have a specialty on Constitutional law to understand -- it's plain English.


Now you are a liar.  You know you've been needling me for ever.  Everyone here that's seen it knows it.  Either you really are Magoo and don't know better, or your just a horrible horrible person.  Take your pick.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh with me he's done a lot worse....it's the constant needling from not self-aware, so called Con law expert, the clients remark, the constant nonsense, the unhinged.  He's clearly been trolling me.  In the current thread it actually started with him mocking me for claiming I was a con law expert but making a mistake about the amount needed to remove a rep.  I owned up to the error, but asked him not to mischaracterize me as claiming I was a con law expert (which was clearly intended to belittle me).  He didn't take the off ramp and doubled down instead claiming I didn't even know the basics.
> 
> If he apologizes for that, I'm more than happy to apologize right back and let it go.


If you stop making errors and unfounded accusations, I'll stop pointing them out.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I never accused you of being a racist Magoo.  No one would seriously believe that about you.  The first was a quip that went totally over your head (because you are so lost and confused)...on a meta level it was a comment about how in our society it's acceptable right now to criticize Antifa but not BLM (hence those of us that conflate leftist violence, hoping to avoid a discussion about racism, just blame Antifa).
> 
> The second was a question to you.  Do you honestly think this guys jokes about reprogramming the children of Republicans are funny or acceptable.  Would you feel the same way about someone making a polish joke, or a Mexican joke?  Are those acceptable just because they are "jokes".
> 
> I know all this is hard for you to wrap your head around....


Your denial of your race-mongering intent would hold water better if your following comments had not attempted to reinforce them.  

I didn't say I agreed with those guys.  I said I didn't take them seriously.

And then you depart with another unfounded insult.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> If you stop making errors and unfounded accusations, I'll stop pointing them out.


If you stop being so dismissive and a little more courteous, I'll stop calling you Magoo.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Your denial of your race-mongering intent would hold water better if your following comments had not attempted to reinforce them.
> 
> I didn't say I agreed with those guys.  I said I didn't take them seriously.
> 
> And then you depart with another unfounded insult.


Many you really have no clue, do you.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Now you are a liar.  You know you've been needling me for ever.  Everyone here that's seen it knows it.  Either you really are Magoo and don't know better, or your just a horrible horrible person.  Take your pick.


Needling?  Is that it?  You don't like having your opinions debated?  

There is no reason for anyone to think that I am a "horrible horrible person" (Grammarly is suggesting a comma in there, but it's a quote).


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If you stop being so dismissive and a little more courteous, I'll stop calling you Magoo.


I don't care if you call me Magoo.  Everyone knows it is not true, except that I do walk with a cane if I am going any distance.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Needling?  Is that it?  You don't like having your opinions debated?
> 
> There is no reason for anyone to think that I am a "horrible horrible person" (Grammarly is suggesting a comma in there, but it's a quote).


There's the debate on the issues which I'm happy to have with you (and as I said from time to time you raise decent points).  But you are dismissive, and treat people here with a lack of decency.  A person who wants to have an opinion debated doesn't dismiss people with "nonsense" and "cuckoo".  A person who wants to have an honest exchange doesn't belittle others.  You can't even help yourself with the grammarly stuff.  You know what you are doing, I know what you are doing, we all know what you are doing.  You aren't interested in honest debate, so here we are.

That said, if you are willing to try harder, always happy to meet you half way.  My hand's extended, you just have to take it.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's the debate on the issues which I'm happy to have with you (and as I said from time to time you raise decent points).  But you are dismissive, and treat people here with a lack of decency.  A person who wants to have an opinion debated doesn't dismiss people with "nonsense" and "cuckoo".  A person who wants to have an honest exchange doesn't belittle others.  You can't even help yourself with the grammarly stuff.  You know what you are doing, I know what you are doing, we all know what you are doing.  You aren't interested in honest debate, so here we are.
> 
> That said, if you are willing to try harder, always happy to meet you half way.  My hand's extended, you just have to take it.


Why half way?  I see no reason to retract anything I have posted here.

"try harder"?  - just can't help yourself.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Why half way?  I see no reason to retract anything I have posted here.
> 
> "try harder"?  - just can't help yourself.


So you just want an apology (for something which you couldn't even comprehend), and for me to say I'm wrong, without one from you for your constant needling dismissiveness, without a change to act any better or reform at all?  No thanks Magoo troll.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> So you just want an apology (for something which you couldn't even comprehend), and for me to say I'm wrong, without one from you for your constant needling dismissiveness, without a change to act any better or reform at all?  No thanks Magoo troll.


I'll take this as your final refusal to admit to your error.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I'll take this as your final refusal to admit to your error.


I'll take this as your final refusal to call a truce and meet me half way.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

Welp...it's over now:









						Geraldo Supports Impeachment: Losing Made Trump ‘Crazy’ and He ‘Unleashed a Mob’
					

"It made him crazy or revealed a dysfunction I had refused to see. He then unleashed a mob to make war on their own government. 5 to their doom."




					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'll take this as your final refusal to call a truce and meet me half way.


My experience with me not worrying about people not liking me on the internet goes back to here -- 





__





						Usenet Ban a Slippery Slope?
					

A brutal, months-long Usenet word brawl that cost jobs and came to death threats ended in a Seattle court Friday when a judge forbade one of the combatants to post new messages on pain of felony charges. The order, which prevents ski buff Scott Abraham from posting any messages on the Usenet...




					www.wired.com
				




I was only a peripheral player in this situation, but I still communicate with online friends I developed then and went skiing or had lunch with some.  Usenet is pretty much dead, but we have found each other on FB.  They run the full political spectrum, both to the right and left of me.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> My experience with me not worrying about people not liking me on the internet goes back to here --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you don't give out decency into the world, don't expect decency back.  You don't lose anything by being nice to people.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Welp...it's over now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first time I saw Geraldo was when he was a local TV reporter in New York in 1972.  The Navy had sent me to the Grumman factory on Long Island to learn about F-14s.  I bought a little 9-inch BW TV so I could watch the Olympics in my boarding-house room (nice Italian landlady downstairs, a couple of beefy Italian guys shared the upstairs with me - I never felt safer).  Geraldo at that time was making underground reports on the Willowbrook Mental Hospital - he sneaked onto the grounds at night and filmed and interviewed some of the inmates with no medical people to filter out the mess.  The beginnings of a long career for him.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If you don't give out decency into the world, don't expect decency back.  You don't lose anything by being nice to people.


In the rec.skiing.alpine mess, I tried to be reasonable with people, but those with whom I disagreed took me as an enemy (a lesson I should have learned).  Scott Abraham himself threatened me personally and his "lawyer" Bert Hoff (claimed to be Yale Law graduate, but he was obviously horrible at law) threatened to go to my employer.  I beat him to it by telling my supervisor what was going on, including a long lesson on what usenet was.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

__





						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse.
> 
> When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself.  Second, it also means you’re willing to accept the worst, most despicable behavior in the history of the presidency for what, so you can obtain slightly less despicable things like fighting marriage equality, or locking chilldren in cages, or “when the looting starts the shooting starts” unless you’re white people staging an insirrection and beating a police officer to death worhcan American flag.
> 
> ...


There's that broad brush thing again.  But that's ok, frothing at the mouth usually does that, and causes mis spellin of words.

I guess being an asshole means liking:  *no new wars in the middle east,  redeployment of troops in places where they aren't doing any good, sitting two justices and multiple lower court judges, small business growth, pissing off NATO, supporting Israel, and pro life*.  Likely all things that piss you off - which is good.  Doesn't mean I'm racist (nearly impossible for me to be racists), doesn't mean I'm homophobic, doesn't mean I disagree that racism exists.   

The three highlighted above support all of the stuff I highlighted.  

Now you go do you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> In the rec.skiing.alpine mess, I tried to be reasonable with people, but those with whom I disagreed took me as an enemy (a lesson I should have learned).  Scott Abraham himself threatened me personally and his "lawyer" Bert Hoff (claimed to be Yale Law graduate, but he was obviously horrible at law) threatened to go to my employer.  I beat him to it by telling my supervisor what was going on, including a long lesson on what usenet was.


So sad that happened to you.  I can see why you'd be like a puppy that's been kicked one too many times.

You took the lesson too deeply, though, and just allowed it to twist you all together.  Do you have issues with others saying your are cranky (or is your real life persona very pleasant)?  Genuinely curious.  I know my father has gotten to be quite the curmudgeon as he got older.

But ultimately, that's why we are where we are.  That's why Trump exists.  That's why we have antifa riots and Capitol seizures.  Because we've forgotten to treat each other with courtesy and decency even though our opinions may differ.  And to the extent you've internalized that behavior, however good the reason, you are part of the problem....because the Antifa rioters and the Capitol rioters all thought they had good reasons too.  It doesn't excuse it.  

This is a great analogy of the D & R dynamic.  The Ds think they are in the right.  The Ds think they can do no wrong.  The Ds think they are on the side of history.  They treat the Rs this way because they've been kicked like a puppy one too many times.  And eventually the Rs say no more and you get a Trump.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> “So many” apparently consists of me and @espola. I think we have a ways to go before we get to the level of Outlaw, Sheriff Joe, Tyrone, Willie, Ricky Fandango, MSK357, and Lavey29. I’m sure I’m missing some. In the end, you just don’t like that I play like a magat and you disagree with espola and can’t handle it that he points out when you’re wrong.


I think we're still waiting for the definition of a MAGAT.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I think we're still waiting for the definition of a MAGAT.


This is why god invented the Internet.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 12, 2021)

happy9 said:


> There's that broad brush thing again.  But that's ok, frothing at the mouth usually does that, and causes mis spellin of words.
> 
> I guess being an asshole means liking:  *no new wars in the middle east,  redeployment of troops in places where they aren't doing any good, sitting two justices and multiple lower court judges, small business growth, pissing off NATO, supporting Israel, and pro life*.  Likely all things that piss you off - which is good.  Doesn't mean I'm racist (nearly impossible for me to be racists), doesn't mean I'm homophobic, doesn't mean I disagree that racism exists.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the material.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> So sad that happened to you.  I can see why you'd be like a puppy that's been kicked one too many times.
> 
> You took the lesson too deeply, though, and just allowed it to twist you all together.  Do you have issues with others saying your are cranky (or is your real life persona very pleasant)?  Genuinely curious.  I know my father has gotten to be quite the curmudgeon as he got older.
> 
> ...


I'm not sad about the experience.  Overall, I think I came out on top of the interactions in rsa, just by telling the truth.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I'm not sad about the experience.  Overall, I think I came out on top of the interactions in rsa, just by telling the truth.


In the end the measure of ourselves it not who won or came out on top....but what we brought into the world.  If there is truth we can never know what it is....Rashomon (or Cobra Kai), take your pick.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> In the end the measure of ourselves it not who won or came out on top....but what we brought into the world.  If there is truth we can never know what it is....Rashomon (or Cobra Kai), take your pick.


 Be sure that you are right, and then go ahead -- Davy Crockett


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Be sure that you are right, and then go ahead -- Davy Crockett


It didn't end up so hot for him, well besides being the king of the wild frontier.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> As for G's implications of me being a racist -- she has so far refused to retract and apologize, instead just piling on more unfounded accusations.


In all fairness, this argument does sound like the same conversation about a certain reply to a hit and run personal story and requests for apologies.

In the last instance we were able to move on.

Can we do the same here in reverse?... I would, ‘off topic’ ain’t that high on my priority list.  FYI, I appreciate both of your contributions on the board, above the fold.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> In all fairness, this argument does sound like the same conversation about a certain reply to a hit and run personal story and requests for apologies.


Who wants popcorn?


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

EOTL said:


> This is why god invented the Internet.


Looking for your definition... it seems clear, but I wouldn’t want to ‘ass’u’me’.

or I’ll just continue with affirmation that you’re a political bigot.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> In all fairness, this argument does sound like the same conversation about a certain reply to a hit and run personal story and requests for apologies.
> 
> In the last instance we were able to move on.
> 
> Can we do the same here in reverse?... I would, ‘off topic’ ain’t that high on my priority list.  FYI, I appreciate both of your contributions on the board, above the fold.


The distinction there is that NorCalDad acted honorably and neither of us had been trolling each other since the pandemic started.  It was easy to call it a misunderstanding and move on.

This has been some time in building with espola.  I attempted to act honorably and graciously when he pointed out my mistake on the point of expulsion, he refused to take it, doubling down instead, which is where we are today.  I've told him even though it was a misunderstanding, I would be more than happy to apologize to him if he felt somehow I'd put him in a bad light with a racism accusation (that was never my intent)...but that I'd ask that he apologize for his non stop needling and belittling of me and we try to behave better towards each other in the future.  He has so far rejected my offer.  He has basically said it's more important for him to be right than decent.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

Lol... off topic is now ‘off topic’.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The distinction there is that NorCalDad acted honorably and neither of us had been trolling each other since the pandemic started.  It was easy to call it a misunderstanding and move on.
> 
> This has been some time in building with espola.  I attempted to act honorably and graciously when he pointed out my mistake on the point of expulsion, he refused to take it, doubling down instead, which is where we are today.  I've told him even though it was a misunderstanding, I would be more than happy to apologize to him if he felt somehow I'd put him in a bad light with a racism accusation (that was never my intent)...but that I'd ask that he apologize for his non stop needling and belittling of me and we try to behave better towards each other in the future.  He has so far rejected my offer.  He has basically said it's more important for him to be right than decent.


I am right, and just like Davy Crockett suggested, I'm going ahead.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I am right, and just like Davy Crockett suggested, I'm going ahead.


No you aren’t but I wish you better fortune than he had

btw among the lefty liberal types Davy Crockett has gotten a reputation for not being a good guy and basically participating in the taking of Mexico from Latinos. I personally think Davy is great (my older bro went through a frontier phase as a child) but for someone who does not want to be portrayed as a racist it’s not the best thing to hang your hat on


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The distinction there is that NorCalDad acted honorably and neither of us had been trolling each other since the pandemic started.  It was easy to call it a misunderstanding and move on.
> 
> This has been some time in building with espola.  I attempted to act honorably and graciously when he pointed out my mistake on the point of expulsion, he refused to take it, doubling down instead, which is where we are today.  I've told him even though it was a misunderstanding, I would be more than happy to apologize to him if he felt somehow I'd put him in a bad light with a racism accusation (that was never my intent)...but that I'd ask that he apologize for his non stop needling and belittling of me and we try to behave better towards each other in the future.  He has so far rejected my offer.  He has basically said it's more important for him to be right than decent.


This was your idea of gracious?

I may be Mr. Magoo, but I see through you yeah.
(Stupid fool, old Magoo)
You got a way to suck me in
And then you spit me out again
I try to take it on the chin
But I bump into everything
You know the way to keep me blind
Diggin that silly old grin of mine


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The distinction there is that NorCalDad acted honorably and neither of us had been trolling each other since the pandemic started.  It was easy to call it a misunderstanding and move on.
> 
> This has been some time in building with espola.  I attempted to act honorably and graciously when he pointed out my mistake on the point of expulsion, he refused to take it, doubling down instead, which is where we are today.  I've told him even though it was a misunderstanding, I would be more than happy to apologize to him if he felt somehow I'd put him in a bad light with a racism accusation (that was never my intent)...but that I'd ask that he apologize for his non stop needling and belittling of me and we try to behave better towards each other in the future.  He has so far rejected my offer.  He has basically said it's more important for him to be right than decent.


Clearly I’m missing some prior context. My comments were in the vein of the recent thread, on both sides.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> There is no reason for anyone to think that I am a "horrible horrible person" (Grammarly is suggesting a comma in there, but it's a quote).


lol


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> This was your idea of gracious?
> 
> I may be Mr. Magoo, but I see through you yeah.
> (Stupid fool, old Magoo)
> ...


again, I never attack. I only respond. Id be happy to add that to my side of the list if you accept terms I outlined.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> Clearly I’m missing some prior context. My comments were in the vein of the recent thread, on both sides.


yeah you have to go back months


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No you aren’t but I wish you better fortune than he had
> 
> btw among the lefty liberal types Davy Crockett has gotten a reputation for not being a good guy and basically participating in the taking of Mexico from Latinos. I personally think Davy is great (my older bro went through a frontier phase as a child) but for someone who does not want to be portrayed as a racist it’s not the best thing to hang your hat on


You quoted Cobra Kai (I don't know what that is, so I assume it is fictional); I quoted an actual person from his autobiography.  Now that means, logically, that it was written before he went to Texas.  He was noted in his short term in Congress for disagreeing with Jackson's Indian removal plan, after which he headed west, disgusted with Washington politics.

The Texas Rebellion was not simply a matter of white Americans taking land from Mexico.  There were a significant number of native Mexicans in the rebel forces who did not like Santa Ana's government, including some that died at the Alamo alongside Crockett.  The Republic of Texas did a much better job of honoring existing property rights held by Mexicans than California did a few years later.









						Juan Seguín - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




See how helpful I am being to you, graciously filling in gaps in your knowledge?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> yeah you have to go back months


We only have to go back a few days to find your unsupported claims that antifa types were involved in the Capitol riot and that antifa had called for a violent overthrow of the US government.  Have you forgotten those?


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> again, I never attack. I only respond. Id be happy to add that to my side of the list if you accept terms I outlined.


That's not an attack?  And nonsense, to boot.


----------



## N00B (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> lol


I meant to laugh at the auto correct portion of this prior post... not the content.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> See how helpful I am being to you, graciously filling in gaps in your knowledge?


Shit like this is what we’re talking about Magoo.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> That's not an attack?  And nonsense, to boot.


technically it’s a counter attack oh wizzard of Crockett. In other words a response. 

and if you don’t know cobra Kai at least you should know rashomon....particularly if you are a fan of history

you so are your caricature. I can’t take full credit on it though. Someone else here mentioned it once. Can’t remember who


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

N00B said:


> In all fairness, this argument does sound like the same conversation about a certain reply to a hit and run personal story and requests for apologies.
> 
> In the last instance we were able to move on.
> 
> Can we do the same here in reverse?... I would, ‘off topic’ ain’t that high on my priority list.  FYI, I appreciate both of your contributions on the board, above the fold.


I don't make advance plans about how to deal with anyone in particular.  I play the cards as they are dealt.  For example, back in the old days of this forum, I even agreed at times with the most evil person who ever posted here in some of his statements and opinions about referees and the LOTG - because I thought he was right.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Shit like this is what we’re talking about Magoo.


And you made no comment about my corrections to your misunderstandings of the basis of the Texas Rebellion.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> And you made no comment about my corrections to your misunderstandings of the basis of the Texas Rebellion.


a. It wasn’t my understanding of the Texas rebellion. I was pointing out lefties (of which i am not) think of him as being a racist.  So if you were trying to avoid pointing yourself as a racist maybe that’s not the moniker you want to go with
b. I just got through with my elder helping him with the Texas rebellion. History is one of my things. There are few gaps in my knowledge
C. Much like Magoo you always have no clue what’s going on around you. Need to get those glasses Magoo


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> a. It wasn’t my understanding of the Texas rebellion. I was pointing out lefties (of which i am not) think of him as being a racist.  So if you were trying to avoid pointing yourself as a racist maybe that’s not the moniker you want to go with
> b. I just got through with my elder helping him with the Texas rebellion. History is one of my things. There are few gaps in my knowledge
> C. Much like Magoo you always have no clue what’s going on around you. Need to get those glasses Magoo


Maybe you could get your elder to help you with the phrasing of your first sentence.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Maybe you could get your elder to help you with the phrasing of your first sentence.


“Oh dear oh me oh my....you’ve outdone yourself this time Magoo!”


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> technically it’s a counter attack oh wizzard of Crockett. In other words a response.
> 
> and if you don’t know cobra Kai at least you should know rashomon....particularly if you are a fan of history
> 
> you so are your caricature. I can’t take full credit on it though. Someone else here mentioned it once. Can’t remember who


Rashomon is also fictional. 

I thought it might be, then I checked to make sure I was right before I went ahead and posted that.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> Rashomon is also fictional.
> 
> I thought it might be, then I checked to make sure I was right before I went ahead and posted that.


yes and philosophical. One of the great works of the 20th century.


----------



## espola (Jan 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> “Oh dear oh me oh my....you’ve outdone yourself this time Magoo!”


That's much worse.  You didn't even try.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 12, 2021)

espola said:


> That's much worse.  You didn't even try.


“you’ve done it again Magoo!”


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)




----------



## crush (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Defending the Impeached Peach of Shit from an assertion that he lacks human qualities says a lot Grace Karen. It looks like you’re really getting to her @Hüsker Dü.
> 
> *Brace yourselves everybody,* ‘cuz Grace Karen the Apologist is about to go through the roof today over impeachment. I don’t know someone rationalizes being wrong with such frequency. Wanna give us some insight @crush?


*FEAR* bro is what's playing out in America.  We all have been played.  Either or is not the way to go.  This is not about black vs white, R vs D ((I see now how many of them are the same and always have been).  It's not about capitalism or communism.  Fear & insecurities is the root cause of all this, plus being brainwashed and I would gather to say that most of the higher ups have been compromised or some like to say, blackmailed in one way or another.  Blackmail at the highest level is insane!!!  Things will be getting dark and gnarlier.  Dont believe all the fear of nukes.  Love is the answer, the light   Love you EOTL, espola, husker, nocal bro from HB who labels all of us in OC as racist.  Thanks bud for the label and letting everyone know I went to DC.  I'll be back tomorrow to answer any questions any of you might have.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse.
> 
> When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself.  Second, it also means you’re willing to accept the worst, most despicable behavior in the history of the presidency for what, so you can obtain slightly less despicable things like fighting marriage equality, or locking chilldren in cages, or “when the looting starts the shooting starts” unless you’re white people staging an insirrection and beating a police officer to death worhcan American flag.
> 
> ...


"No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse."
Can you even read??? Who is apologizing for these stupid animals??? Apparently you are calling for the Death Penalty as well. That's a little much don't you think. *Your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*

"When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself"

Yes, I support his policies with the exception of CoVid. I do not support the man that Trump is. His policies led to the greatest economy our country has ever seen. And FYI, he doesn't have any "Racist" policies and actually showed the opposite. If you can't tell the difference between a policy and a person, you should not be even speaking about it. I have a right to my conservative opinions and freedoms. I do not stand with violence. I respect Law and Order.  *Again, your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*

"So you can obtain slightly less despicable things like fighting marriage equality"

Please inform me when any bill was brought to Congress on this issue. Everyone is in fact entitled to their opinion however. That is the beauty of America. Sure, I don't agree with Homosexuality but it doesn't mean that I don't like or am friends with gay men or woman. I've actually had many intellectual conversations about this with friends and family about it. Nobody gets bent out of shape either. I will say that I take no issue with gays beings married. *Again, your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*

"Locking chilldren in cages"

You should probably do some research. I think you are ill-informed about who started this....

"Beating a police officer to death worhcan American flag."

Would you like to take a gander at how many Police Officers died or were seriously injured during the Riots in 2020? Hint: It's a lot more that what happened at the Capital. *Again, your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*

"If you want unity and no judgment, start by apologizing for what you did to get us here instead of demanding it from others. You take an insurrection and use it to feel sorry for yourself that people demand accountability. You have none. The American Way."

I will apologize for absolutely, 100% nothing. I did nothing to play a part in this. If you truly feel 74 Million people need to apologize. We do not live in a Utopia. Anyone who thinks so should be on meds. There will always be horrible people on both sides. It's part of life. It's human nature in fact as 1,000s of years have taught us. 

If you truly want to help, have compassion for others. Nothing wrong with voicing your opinion even though we may disagree. However, if you decide to throw insults, don't be surprised when one defends his or herself.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


>


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> This is why god invented the Internet.


Not al gore?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Thanks for the material.


I figured it would contribute to your re-education


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> "No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse."
> Can you even read??? Who is apologizing for these stupid animals??? Apparently you are calling for the Death Penalty as well. That's a little much don't you think. *Your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*
> 
> "When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself"
> ...


Applogist, like I was saying. I have compassion for people who have it themselves. You don’t. You’re just expecting you and your friends to be let off the hook for being horrible people. I don’t see amy of you magats showing even the slightest remorse, ot taking the slightest amount of responsibility for your role in all of this. 

That you rationalize all of the horrible s**t that Marmalade-a-lago has done by trying to separate out in your mind the horrible s***tbag he is from the horrible s**t that he does but which you thoroughly enjoy says a lot. Enjoy the losing. Bigly.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

What’s the over/under on when the Peach of S**t gets impeached today?  Noon PST?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Applogist, like I was saying. I have compassion for people who have it themselves. You don’t. You’re just expecting you and your friends to be let off the hook for being horrible people. I don’t see amy of you magats showing even the slightest remorse, ot taking the slightest amount of responsibility for your role in all of this.
> 
> That you rationalize all of the horrible s**t that Marmalade-a-lago has done by trying to separate out in your mind the horrible s***tbag he is from the horrible s**t that he does but which you thoroughly enjoy says a lot. Enjoy the losing. Bigly.


I think you are on a loop.  But awesome job contributing to the urban dictionary.

In all seriousness, the statement below  sums you up BIGLY.  Just wondering if you felt/feel the same vitriol for the administration that really locked up kids in cages, or other administrations that raided families in the middle of the night to remove kids and return them to communism.  And lastly, an administration that stood by and let 100s of thousands of people get slaughtered after thumping their chest and talking smack.

I hope the incoming administration moves to the center (where most American's reside) and gets on with the business of governing.  Their will be differences of course.  My hope is that both sides do their own purge, a purge that marginalizes extremist at both ends of the spectrum.  People like you, brave behind keyboards and on social media platforms everywhere are like annoying mosquitos and cockroaches.  Hard to completely eradicate.  But won't it be nice if we can arrange it to where you only operate on the margins, coming out only when it's dark or after a short dormant period. 

*Your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> "No, apologist. Prison for them, and hopefully worse."
> Can you even read??? Who is apologizing for these stupid animals??? Apparently you are calling for the Death Penalty as well. That's a little much don't you think. *Your example tells me how Radical you are. This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*
> 
> "When people like you say you support his policies, first that makes you an a**hole all by itself"
> ...


Honestly, I don’t understand why you’re so bent out of shape. I’m not acting any differently than your Marmalade Master. Why’d you and your trumpanzee buddies think it was so much fun the last four years, but now you’re all upset that I’m following his lead?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I think you are on a loop.  But awesome job contributing to the urban dictionary.
> 
> In all seriousness, the statement below  sums you up BIGLY.  Just wondering if you felt/feel the same vitriol for the administration that really locked up kids in cages, or other administrations that raided families in the middle of the night to remove kids and return them to communism.  And lastly, an administration that stood by and let 100s of thousands of people get slaughtered after thumping their chest and talking smack.
> 
> ...


How are you going to keep up to date on all the lies that your magat/Q friends have been feeding you without Parler?  Church I guess?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I think you are on a loop.  But awesome job contributing to the urban dictionary.
> 
> In all seriousness, the statement below  sums you up BIGLY.  Just wondering if you felt/feel the same vitriol for the administration that really locked up kids in cages, or other administrations that raided families in the middle of the night to remove kids and return them to communism.  And lastly, an administration that stood by and let 100s of thousands of people get slaughtered after thumping their chest and talking smack.
> 
> ...


I’ve never participated in an insurrection. Also never went to protest that involved beating a police office to death. Also never supported letting criminals off the hook.  And never voted for someone who incited an attempted coup.  That’s all on you. But I’m not surprised that you try to project your responsibility for all of this onto those who oppose it.

What’s the over/under in how many magat insurrectionists get shot over the next two weeks?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> How are you going to keep up to date on all the lies that your magat/Q friends have been feeding you without Parler?  Church I guess?


What's wrong with Church?  Do you hate Christians?  Synagogues and Mosques also provide their communities information.  Do you hate Jews and Muslims?  See how stoopid you sound?

  I'll leave this right here again for you.  It's aging very well.  Thanks @MARsSPEED 

*This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> I’ve never participated in an insurrection. Also never went to protest that involved beating a police office to death. Also never supported letting criminals off the hook.  And never voted for someone who incited an attempted coup.  That’s all on you. But I’m not surprised that you try to project your responsibility for all of this onto those who oppose it.
> 
> What’s the over/under in how many magat insurrectionists get shot over the next two weeks?


 - you are quite unhinged - get a grip. None of what you say makes any sense. You don't even know what a coup is. Your TDS has relapsed, you need to get it checked out or you'll become a statistic.

oops, forgot to add your tag line:

*This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> - you are quite unhinged - get a grip. None of what you say makes any sense. You don't even know what a coup is. Your TDS has relapsed, you need to get it checked out or you'll become a statistic.
> 
> oops, forgot to add your tag line:
> 
> *This makes you no better than those stupid animals who went in the Capitol. You are just on the other side.*


Like I said, I don’t expect you to acknowledge your responsibility for contributing to where we are today.  Magats never do.  It’s called Trump Denialist Syndrome. 

So much losing.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 13, 2021)

Opinion | Trump Was Kicked Off Twitter. Who’s Next? (Published 2021)
					

We should be wary of corporate power over political speech.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 13, 2021)

"But it should still make us uncomfortable that the choices of a handful of unelected technology executives have so much influence on public discourse."









						Who Should Make the Online Rules? (Published 2021)
					

A handful of unelected tech executives have tremendous influence on public discourse. Is that right?




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Like I said, I don’t expect you to acknowledge your responsibility for contributing to where we are today.  Magats never do.  It’s called Trump Denialist Syndrome.
> 
> So much losing.


I see you didn't touch the Christian/Jew/Muslim question with a 10 ft pole.  You are yellow and shallow - makes you and trump  kin. Makes sense really.  It's like you are mad at grandpa.

We agree though, trump lost


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> "But it should still make us uncomfortable that the choices of a handful of unelected technology executives have so much influence on public discourse."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whiner. If you weren’t all such a**holes, you wouldn’t have private companies exercising their First Amendment and free market rights EXACTlY AS INTENDED.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 13, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Project Veritas? For real....come on.


Apparently PBS watched the vid and decided the guy had to go.









						PBS fires its chief counsel for saying what Democrats really think
					

Up until Tuesday, Michael Beller was an attorney (arguably a very high-level attorney) for the Public Broadcasting System (PBS), an entity that all American people help fund with their taxpayer dollars.  Beller, however, hates half the...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I see you didn't touch the Christian/Jew/Muslim question with a 10 ft pole.  You are yellow and shallow - makes you and trump  kin. Makes sense really.  It's like you are mad at grandpa.
> 
> We agree though, trump lost


You can try changing the subject all you want. What are the odds that the Donny Depends resigns?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I see you didn't touch the Christian/Jew/Muslim question with a 10 ft pole.  You are yellow and shallow - makes you and trump  kin. Makes sense really.  It's like you are mad at grandpa.
> 
> We agree though, trump lost


Not sure why you bother with him to be honest. I get better conversations talking with my black lab as he runs around the yard chasing birds and rabbits.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 13, 2021)

The deplatforming continues. 









						The Biggest Gun Forum Just Kicked Off The Internet Without Explanation
					

'ARFCOM IS DOWN. We've been booted from GoDaddy and are looking for an alternative solution,' the site announced Monday afternoon on Twitter.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure why you bother with him to be honest. I get better conversations talking with my black lab as he runs around the yard chasing birds and rabbits.


I know you’re a covid denier. How you feeling about yesterday, the highest body count yet?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You can try changing the subject all you want. What are the odds that the Donny Depends resigns?


Hopefully he does and saves everyone the hassle.  I'm not changing subjects, you are avoiding them - it's called being yellow.

I'd love to further discuss, this is fun in a sad kind of a way. I'll be back though, later.  For now I need to go and contribute to society, make sure my family is cared for (youth futbol is an expensive endeavor, especially with two) , make sure employees have the tools necessary to run business, and make sure that we can help clients do the same for their customers and families.  The economy is an important thing and average Americans need it to go about their daily life.  Something about jobs, small business, etc...As you like to say - The American Way.  Who knows, I may even throw a wrench into the car pool schedule and drive the car pool to practice tonight.  Maybe stop in at Cabelas during practice, crossing my fingers that that they've replenished their inventory.

Let me know how the day's politicking works out.  I expect a full report based on your insta, facechat, snapbook, and twitter feeds - or however you consume your daily info.  Let me know later how you contributed to society today.  

out.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

I don’t think @EOTL offers any kind of debate. He just calls everyone “play on words” Trumpers and thinks it is funny or gives him leverage. He also does not understand policy vs. person. And most importantly, he has absolutely zero clue about the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

All of this amounts to pure ignorance. Just like the ignants who stormed the Capital. I DESPISE those who stormed the Capitol. It just set our personal freedoms back and we may never see them again based on the response.

@EOTL - I find you to be the most narcissistic and hypocritical person on this forum. If what you post here is really who you are than you are a nasty nasty person in real life. I am glad you represent only very small percent of the Liberal population. Again, you are the Liberal version of those who stormed the Capitol but perhaps even worse mainly because it seems you wish death upon people are just as ignorant, that disagree with you.

Oh, and how many officers were killed, shot, maimed, or injured during the Summer 2020 RIOTS? You don’t seem loke you want to answer that one...


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> I don’t think @EOTL offers any kind of debate. He just calls everyone “play on words” Trumpers and thinks it is funny or gives him leverage. He also does not understand policy vs. person. And most importantly, he has absolutely zero clue about the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
> 
> All of this amounts to pure ignorance. Just like the ignants who stormed the Capital. I DESPISE those who stormed the Capitol. It just set our personal freedoms back and we may never see them again based on the response.
> 
> ...


Please explain the First Amendment as it relates to what happened to Parler.  A violation or just whiny sour grapes that you hate the Bill of Rights?

I love how people “whatabout” something else l, anything else, when they their Bronze Baboon incited an insurrection.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

More troops are currently employed in DC than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.  Maybe Karen Grace can explain how this is Bill Clinton’s fault.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Please explain the First Amendment as it relates to what happened to Parler.  A violation or just whiny sour grapes that you hate the Bill of Rights?
> 
> I love how people “whatabout” something else l, anything else, when they their Bronze Baboon incited an insurrection.


Feel free to read research. I have and fully understand the differences. This has been debated since America Online and many other cases. Please see below. I also suggest you take a look at what Twitter is doing in Uganda which directly disputes it's stance here in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama 

Also, you keep failing to to answer my question about Police Officers killed, maimed and injured during Summer 2020? It's not "whatabout" when one was much more severe and came before the other. Intelligent people know it as an "inconvenient truth" something I know you are all too familiar with.

BTW, even though I don't care for Trump, he never cited insurrection. He told his followers to March to the Capitol. That is hardly saying "Burn It Down" which I recall hearing a few months back. 

It's ironic though, baboon calling another baboon names.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> More troops are currently employed in DC than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.  Maybe Karen Grace can explain how this is Bill Clinton’s fault.


OMG, you are an idiot. One of my VERY best friends is a DC Police officer. He knew about this so called "threat" days ago. Again, ironically it comes from the FBI. We actually had a good laugh about it because he knows and I know it's a bunch of BS just for the media machine to create fear. We are spending millions of dollars when absolutely nothing will happen. I actually have screen shots I could post. 

You really make Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne look like Einsteins.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> Feel free to read research. I have and fully understand the differences. This has been debated since America Online and many other cases. Please see below. I also suggest you take a look at what Twitter is doing in Uganda which directly disputes it's stance here in the United States.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama
> 
> ...


Uganda? WTF are you talking about? I guess following the lead of Poland wasn’t third world enough?  Do you even understand that in Uganda IT WAS THE GOVERNMENT that shut down those services Mr. Con Law Guy?  That it was the government controlling the dissemination of information from private persons, just like you and your magat friends are proposing? In both examples, it is the government dictating to a private entity what the may publish, and against their will. My god, you magats actually support authoritarian government and you don’t even realize what you are doing. This is how stupid magats are people.

So the standard is that someone must explicitly tell their trumpamzees to burn it down to be morally culpable for inciting and insurrection?  What about explicitly telling them to fight? Telling them that the election had been stolen, that we lost our court fights and now it is time for trial by combat?  ‘Cuz those are the exact words used at the rally by the Mango in Chief and his agents. Oh, and then personally walking them up to the Capitol.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Hey fellow traitors!  I heard that in Uganda the government is dictating to private companies what can and cannot be said.  They’re shutting off access to speech they don’t like so they can artificially amplify their perspective. We should do the same by also making places like Twitter artificially amplify the government’s perspective by forcing them to publish what we want, and not what they want. 

It’s time to fight! We lost in court, so now it’s time for trial by combat. I will lead the way!

Covfefe!


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Hey fellow traitors!  I heard that in Uganda the government is dictating to private companies what can and cannot be said.  They’re shutting off access to speech they don’t like so they can artificially amplify their perspective. We should do the same by also making places like Twitter artificially amplify the government’s perspective by forcing them to publish what we want, and not what they want.
> 
> It’s time to fight! We lost in court, so now it’s time for trial by combat. I will lead the way!
> 
> Covfefe!


That went completely over your midget head. I am laughing so hard you right now, OMG. The fact that kids have to grow up in a world with Low IQ people in charge is well, I guess we’ll see!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Hey, did something big just happen? My Parler is down so I can’t get anything but lamestream media....


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 13, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Hey, did something big just happen? My Parler is down so I can’t get anything but lamestream media....


Wow, did you see these crazy Trump supporters at the Capitol today though? All of these troops better have eyes in the back of their heads. Oh wait....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349423521609478148


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> Wow, did you see these crazy Trump supporters at the Capitol today though? All of these troops better have eyes in the back of their heads. Oh wait....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349423521609478148


This is how you deflect from an insurrection and our Capitol overrun by your buddies?  You show your disdain for peaceful protestors asking police to do their job? I can assure you the po po isn’t there for these protestors. They’re present for your kind. 

Get back to me when a police officer has been beaten to death with an American flag.


----------



## Yours in futbol (Jan 13, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> Oh, and how many officers were killed, shot, maimed, or injured during the Summer 2020 RIOTS? You don’t seem loke you want to answer that one...


How many police officers were killed by rioters during the Summer 2020 riots?

Genuinely curious. 

Based on my quick and dirty internet searching, the answer appears to be zero, unless you count a 77 year old retired police officer and the police officers that were killed by the MAGA/bogoloo boys.  But I'm hearing this question being raised a lot so could you let me know how many and your sources?

TIA.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Yours in futbol said:


> How many police officers were killed by rioters during the Summer 2020 riots?
> 
> Genuinely curious.
> 
> ...


You raise good points, other than all of this nonsense from magats about cops getting killed in the line of duty in completely unrelated incidents is simply the irrelevant distraction they want.

Magats are essentially arguing their support for the attempted overthrow of the U.S. government, which included beating a police officer to death with an American flag, because why? Because maybe (or maybe not) a police officer was killed by a black guy a while back in a protest relating to systemic oppression 

In the end, it’s always the same.  Magats won’t concede anything. Instead they’re apologists for an insurrection to the extent they don’t support it outright.  You can also tell they’re racist when they defend and rationalize what happened because people protested systemic persecution a while back. The only way to deal with trumpanzees is constant mocking. Make them double, and then triple, down so that people who aren’t nuts quite easily see what they really stand for. The only way to get these f**ks to reconsider is to put them on a do not fly list and watch them drown in a pool of their whiny tears.  That and tar and feather their mango master to the point that we go back to the days in which they were too embarrassed to share their bigoty, sh*t for brains ideas publicly.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 13, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Not sure why you bother with him to be honest. I get better conversations talking with my black lab as he runs around the yard chasing birds and rabbits.


Not sure either.  Eventually he'll hit tracer burnout.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Not sure either.  Eventually he'll hit tracer burnout.


Really?  Ask simisoccerfan, outlaw, ricky fandango, tyrone (also outlaw), and crush how trying to ride it out went. You don’t seem like such a bad fellow, so I take it easy on you, but Grace Karen on the other hand....


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The deplatforming continues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s some good s**t right there. Even I didn’t expect that true Americans would be kicking this many magats in the teeth so early and so often.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 13, 2021)

Yours in futbol said:


> How many police officers were killed by rioters during the Summer 2020 riots?
> 
> Genuinely curious.
> 
> ...


There's a bit of a problem with this stat.  During the riots, the officers were generally together in groups and looking out for each other (unlike the Capitol officers who were understaffed and spread out).  Lots of police were injured during the riots (I've seen various numbers hard to count).  Several cops around the country were also shot at.  There's the issue of the 2 Los Angeles cops for example that were executed in their squad car.  But it's unclear if this was a political statement or just a crazy.  Then there were the protestors that gathered around the hospital where those cops were admitted who turned it political.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 13, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's a bit of a problem with this stat.  During the riots, the officers were generally together in groups and looking out for each other (unlike the Capitol officers who were understaffed and spread out).  Lots of police were injured during the riots (I've seen various numbers hard to count).  Several cops around the country were also shot at.  There's the issue of the 2 Los Angeles cops for example that were executed in their squad car.  But it's unclear if this was a political statement or just a crazy.  Then there were the protestors that gathered around the hospital where those cops were admitted who turned it political.


BTW IIRC the 2 LA cops I believe survived...


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There's a bit of a problem with this stat.  During the riots, the officers were generally together in groups and looking out for each other (unlike the Capitol officers who were understaffed and spread out).  Lots of police were injured during the riots (I've seen various numbers hard to count).  Several cops around the country were also shot at.  There's the issue of the 2 Los Angeles cops for example that were executed in their squad car.  But it's unclear if this was a political statement or just a crazy.  Then there were the protestors that gathered around the hospital where those cops were admitted who turned it political.


There was a random shooting somewhere once, so maybe that was the fault of some liberals, so therefore it was ok to bludgeon a police officer to death with an American flag in an attempt to overthrow the government of the U.S. Really, it’s his fellow officers’ fault for not being better prepared for the angry magat patriots.


----------



## espola (Jan 13, 2021)

Lindsey Graham is a traitor.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 13, 2021)

Hey check out the helpful info you can get from social media sites that work!


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 13, 2021)

This is an interesting write up:









						Black Lives Matter Protesters Were Overwhelmingly Peaceful, Our Research Finds | Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard University
					

The Black Lives Matter uprisings were remarkably nonviolent. When there was violence, very often police or counterprotesters were reportedly directing it at the protesters.




					www.radcliffe.harvard.edu


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)

Yours in futbol said:


> How many police officers were killed by rioters during the Summer 2020 riots?
> 
> Genuinely curious.
> 
> ...


*Albany, N.Y.: *Officer sent to the hospital after protester throws a brick at him

*Atlanta: *Officer Maximilian Brewer underwent surgery after a protester hit him with an ATV 

*Brockton, Mass.: *One state trooper and a few local Brockton police officers suffered minor injuries

*Buffalo, N.Y.: *Two police officers are hit by a vehicle and one other has his leg broken and pelvis shattered after protesters run him over

*Champaign, Ill: *Several police officers suffered minor injuries after allegedly being assaulted

*Cincinnati, Ohio: *Officer narrowly escaped death after a bullet struck his ballistic helmet

*Columbia, S.C.: *15 law enforcement personnel injured during a Saturday riot

*Chicago: *132 Chicago Police Department officers injured in violent riots in the city

*Davenport, Iowa: *A plainclothes police officer injured after an individual opened fire on his vehicle

*Denver: *Three city police officers sent to the hospital after a hit-and-run that also injured a bystander

*Harrisburg, Penn.: *Two police officers sent to the hospital during a violent protest on Saturday

*Las Vegas: *One cop put on life support after he was shot in the head during a violent protest on Monday; 12 additional officers injured during Friday’s rioting

*Los Angeles: *27 LAPD officers injured during weekend rioting

*Lynchburg, Va.: *Several officers were shot at during protests but were not injured* 

Minnesota: *Police officers shot at during a protest, and a precinct in the city was set on fire by protesters

*Maryland: *Protesters injured four county police officers and damaged several police cruisers

*New York City: *Dozens of NYPD officers injured during weekend rioting with one video showing an officer being struck by a car in a hit-and-run.

Over 350 NYPD officers injured in two weeks of protests. Injuries include being hit by vehicles, head injuries from bricks and fire extinguishers as well as other serious wounds.

*Oak Lawn, Il.: *Three officers injured during Monday’s protests

*Oakland, Calif.: *FBI officer Dave Patrick Underwood was shot and killed while providing security for a courthouse, and another officer was injured in the shooting

*Oakdale, Calif:* Two officers suffered injuries after a clash broke out at a protest.

*Philadelphia: *City police reported several assaults on officers and multiple police cars set on fire

*Pittsburgh, Penn.: *Nine police officers hurt and sent to the hospital in clashes with protesters

*Providence, R.I: *9 officers injured after protesters threw bricks at them as violent protests erupted in the city

*Richmond, Va.: *Two officers hurt during a protest after being hit with a baseball bat and a beer bottle 

*Rhode Island: *Nine officers injured amongst rioting

*Sacramento, Calif.: *Seven police officers received minor injuries at the hands of violent protesters

*Salt Lake City, Utah: *21 police officers required medical care after being injured by protesters, with one reporting that he was hit on the head with a baseball bat

*San Antonio: *Three officers were injured after being hit by bricks and bottles 

*San Jose, Calif.: *Several officers sustained injuries during a May 29 protest and one was sent to the hospital

*Santa Ana, Calif.: *Two officers had to be taken to the hospital after being hit in the head by projectiles thrown at them by protesters

*Springfield, Mo: *Springfield Police Department officer Mark Priebe was hospitalized in the ICU with a spinal cord injury after being rammed by an SUV. Priebe has to undergo surgery and will likely never be able to walk again.

*St. Louis, Mo.: *77-year-old David Dorn, a retired police officer, was shot dead by looters. His death was broadcast live on Facebook. Four other police officers were also shot in downtown St. Louis by violent protesters

*Washington, D.C.: *11 Washington police officers injured during Sunday’s protests. One officer required surgery after being hit by a brick in the leg. Over 50 members of the Secret Service were also hurt during clashes, some sustaining injuries from Molotov cocktails


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You raise good points, other than all of this nonsense from magats about cops getting killed in the line of duty in completely unrelated incidents is simply the irrelevant distraction they want.
> 
> Magats are essentially arguing their support for the attempted overthrow of the U.S. government, which included beating a police officer to death with an American flag, because why? Because maybe (or maybe not) a police officer was killed by a black guy a while back in a protest relating to systemic oppression
> 
> In the end, it’s always the same.  Magats won’t concede anything. Instead they’re apologists for an insurrection to the extent they don’t support it outright.  You can also tell they’re racist when they defend and rationalize what happened because people protested systemic persecution a while back. The only way to deal with trumpanzees is constant mocking. Make them double, and then triple, down so that people who aren’t nuts quite easily see what they really stand for. The only way to get these f**ks to reconsider is to put them on a do not fly list and watch them drown in a pool of their whiny tears.  That and tar and feather their mango master to the point that we go back to the days in which they were too embarrassed to share their bigoty, sh*t for brains ideas publicly.


You are absolutely one clueless hateful nasty piece of shit. You make "Magats" look good. Again, I hope you are only a keyboard warrior because if this is how you carry yourself in real life, I have no words. I'm sure you were out setting stores on fire, looting and painting Graffitti on anything you could find. Look at what YOU did to downtown Portland, Oregon to the Federal Courthouse. It's much worse than the Capitol.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)




----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)




----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)

I could go on and on and on.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 14, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

Are you people still attempting to deflect away from or excuse the behavior at the Capitol building with whataboutism and faux facts? A better tact might be to point out that the attack was planned and coordinated by extreme white supremacy militia groups and that many others simply were caught up in the frenzy. But you wouldn’t want to offend trumps core base now would you?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you people still attempting to deflect away from or excuse the behavior at the Capitol building with whataboutism and faux facts? A better tact might be to point out that the attack was planned and coordinated by extreme white supremacy militia groups and that many others simply were caught up in the frenzy. But you wouldn’t want to offend trumps core base now would you?


it is true that the people who participated in the blm protests in the spring/summer were “mostly peaceful”. It is also true that there was a large amount of looting and violence in the spring/summer and that hundreds of officers were hurt in the violence.  It is also true that d politicians and media either indirectly encouraged the behavior (including the Vice President elect and the speaker) or did nothing to stop it or were late to condemning it (the president elect)

it is true that the trump protestors in washington were “mostly peaceful” and the majority of them did not enter the capitol and dispersed when ordered.  It is also true that there were substantial numbers either in the capitol or pushing against the gates, that there were white supremacists among them and there were those among them that sought to do harm to legislators and/or overthrow the government.  It is also true that trump told them to go home, that trump prior to the storming worked them up into a frenzy (though note for most of the protestors at his speech there was not enough time for them to reach the capitol frontlines unless they ran there or had autos ready) and that trump was late in telling them to go home.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

Ps the rs only need 6-7 more votes and impeachment for the ds is on the table. There’s already enough on the table for Biden and harris for some rs to attempt it (not speaking to whether it’s justified) and every admin since Nixon has had something go askew.  Every president from here on out is likely to be impeached but not removed when the house is controlled by the opposite party. It will become like a vote of no confidence without forcing a cabinet reorg


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you people still attempting to deflect away from or excuse the behavior at the Capitol building with whataboutism and faux facts? A better tact might be to point out that the attack was planned and coordinated by extreme white supremacy militia groups and that many others simply were caught up in the frenzy. But you wouldn’t want to offend trumps core base now would you?


Yes that is what they are doing. It’s all about bigotry with magats. It s quite obvious that @MARsSPEED is rationalizing the attempted overthrough of the government because black people have protested inequality. 

For every example of an incident of violence involving a police officer during a protest relating to oppression, there are hundreds of incidents involving blacks being hanged from trees, murdered by police and others due to their skin color, denied education and employment opportunities, denied the right to vote. Bit none of that is relevant to the despicable nature of what happened at the Capitol. 

It’s fine that racist @MARsSPEED goes psycho here and spends the entire night finding examples of police being killed because it only makes him and his magat co-conspirators look more psycho, and it established quite clearly that his rationalizing the overthrow of the U.S. is driven in large part by bigotry.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> it is true that the people who participated in the blm protests in the spring/summer were “mostly peaceful”. It is also true that there was a large amount of looting and violence in the spring/summer and that hundreds of officers were hurt in the violence.  It is also true that d politicians and media either indirectly encouraged the behavior (including the Vice President elect and the speaker) or did nothing to stop it or were late to condemning it (the president elect)
> 
> it is true that the trump protestors in washington were “mostly peaceful” and the majority of them did not enter the capitol and dispersed when ordered.  It is also true that there were substantial numbers either in the capitol or pushing against the gates, that there were white supremacists among them and there were those among them that sought to do harm to legislators and/or overthrow the government.  It is also true that trump told them to go home, that trump prior to the storming worked them up into a frenzy (though note for most of the protestors at his speech there was not enough time for them to reach the capitol frontlines unless they ran there or had autos ready) and that trump was late in telling them to go home.


I wonder if this is a chicken before the egg problem:









						US police three times as likely to use force against leftwing protesters, data finds
					

Law enforcement responses to more than 13,000 protests show a clear disparity in responses, new statistics show




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> *Albany, N.Y.: *Officer sent to the hospital after protester throws a brick at him
> 
> *Atlanta: *Officer Maximilian Brewer underwent surgery after a protester hit him with an ATV
> 
> ...


You forgot to include the thousands of incidents involving people who’ve been murdered by both police and private citizens based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation. You have missed the millions of incidents in which people have been deprived of equal employment, housing and educational opportunity because of their skin color.

Seriously, the lengths to which magats will go to rationalize and defend what happened last Wed is insane. Look, here are examples to prove black people are bad, so it’s ok to overthrow the government!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You forgot to include the thousands of incidents involving people who’ve been murdered by both police and private citizens based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation. You have missed the millions of incidents in which people have been deprived of equal employment, housing and educational opportunity because of their skin color.
> 
> Seriously, the lengths to which magats will go to rationalize and defend what happened last Wed is insane. Look, here are examples to prove black people are bad, so it’s ok to overthrow the government!


The good news is magat @MARsSPEED has given us the go ahead to rationalize whatever horrific behavior we’d like based on something, anything, that happened in the past. So if you ever decide to burn down a liquor store or shoot a cop or graffiti a police station, you can feel justified and good about it because magats stormed our Capitol trying to overthrow the government and also beat a police officer to death with an American flag in the process. Or maybe @MARsSPEED is telling us to think bigger. Instead of simply protesting oppression, we should go for the brass ring and overthrow the entire government, is that you’re telling us @MARsSPEED? It’s ok to overthrow the U.S. government but not protest cops murdering people based on their skin color?

Of course, I’m guessing @MARsSPEED actually thinks that’s what happened. That we socialists conspired with a long dead former south american dictator and a voting machine company to steal the election. Is that right @MARsSPEED?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I wonder if this is a chicken before the egg problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the vast majority of right wing protestors have been (until the capitol) of the side of police. Even in the capitol despite Some protestors being armed the vast majority dispersed when ordered.  When the police tell them stop go home they generally did (as I wrote the morning of the capitol I dont think they are aligned anymore and I worried when that split happen there would be violence similar to the cop-left violence we saw in spring)

the blm/Antifa protests were anti-cop. Further at the beginning they took place at a time when there were lockdown rules being broken (it besides politicians cheating were the 1 factor that shattered the lockdown consensus)

up until now you didn’t see right protestors getting in cops faces telling them to die pig. I do think that’s starting the shift now.  The right and police are no longer friends


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Of course, I’m guessing @MARsSPEED actually thinks that’s what happened. That we socialists conspired with a long dead former south american dictator and a voting machine company to steal the election. Is that right @MARsSPEED?


An election that saw down ballot Republicans (the ones that distanced themselves from trump that is) do surprisingly well.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the vast majority of right wing protestors have been (until the capitol) of the side of police. Even in the capitol despite Some protestors being armed the vast majority dispersed when ordered.  When the police tell them stop go home they generally did (as I wrote the morning of the capitol I dont think they are aligned anymore and I worried when that split happen there would be violence similar to the cop-left violence we saw in spring)
> 
> the blm/Antifa protests were anti-cop. Further at the beginning they took place at a time when there were lockdown rules being broken (it besides politicians cheating were the 1 factor that shattered the lockdown consensus)
> 
> up until now you didn’t see right protestors getting in cops faces telling them to die pig. I do think that’s starting the shift now.  The right and police are no longer friends


Since Election Day, a growing subset of Trump's followers have become increasingly radicalized by conspiracy theories that claim the 2020 presidential election was stolen due to widespread voter fraud.

The false claims, which originated on far-right forums and among prominent conspiracy theorists, have been repeatedly promoted by the president as well as other conservative lawmakers.

The misguided belief that democracy was crumbling before them ultimately led Trump's most ardent loyalists to breach the Capitol, resulting in the death of five people in the process. In reality, it was the group's actions that constituted the most substantial attack on democracy in modern memory.  









						The missing Pelosi laptop is the perfect cover for disinformation
					

A laptop reportedly stolen out of Nancy Pelosi's office during the Capitol siege is quickly becoming a major source of disinformation.




					www.dailydot.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> up until now you didn’t see right protestors getting in cops faces telling them to die pig. I do think that’s starting the shift now.  The right and police are no longer friends


I guess my point can be summed up be this part of the article I posted:

------------
 Looking at the subset of protests in which demonstrators did not engage in any violence, vandalism, or looting, law enforcement officers were about 3.5 times more likely to use force against leftwing protests than rightwing protests, with about 1.8% of peaceful leftwing protests and only half a percent of peaceful rightwing protests met with teargas, rubber bullets or other force from law enforcement.

“Police are not just engaging more because [leftwing protesters] are more violent. They’re engaging more even with peaceful protesters,” Dr Roudabeh Kishi, ACLED’s director of research and innovation, told the Guardian. “That’s the clear trend.”
------------

Is the issue that police were instigating things or the other way around?  It's not clear to me.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess my point can be summed up be this part of the article I posted:
> 
> ------------
> Looking at the subset of protests in which demonstrators did not engage in any violence, vandalism, or looting, law enforcement officers were about 3.5 times more likely to use force against leftwing protests than rightwing protests, with about 1.8% of peaceful leftwing protests and only half a percent of peaceful rightwing protests met with teargas, rubber bullets or other force from law enforcement.
> ...


its an easy explanation. The right and the police were largely aligned until now. The right isn’t screaming into their faces “die pig”. Some police at the capitol reportedly even stood aside. I don’t think that’s the case anymore. I also think size of rallies is probably a factor because the larger the more bad seeds you get. Husker does have a point: the election did radicalize the right.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> its an easy explanation. The right and the police were largely aligned until now. The right isn’t screaming into their faces “die pig”. Some police at the capitol reportedly even stood aside. I don’t think that’s the case anymore. I also think size of rallies is probably a factor because the larger the more bad seeds you get. Husker does have a point: the election did radicalize the right.


I guess maybe a better way to phrase this is, the BLM protests were focused on police brutality, which put police on the defensive.  I mean people don't just start yelling "die pig" for no reason.  This makes sense.


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You forgot to include the thousands of incidents involving people who’ve been murdered by both police and private citizens based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation.


You might want to check the WAPO database of police shootings before you make that statement.  My apologies for letting facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
		




			https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/fatal-police-shootings-of-unarmed-people-have-significantly-declined-experts-say/2018/05/03/d5eab374-4349-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

The far right and the far left are equally responsible for threats to our democracy.  While what each side did is optically different, they are not substantively different.  Both were an extreme assault on democracy and the rule of law.  Anyone who attempts to diminish, rationalize, or justify on the basis of subjective differences is part of the problem.  This isn't about whataboutism, its about what objectively happened over the last year.  Neither party can be defined by their extremes.  I think most of us are moderates and lean a little left or a little right.  Trump was a false prophet and needs to be treated as such.  Can we not at least find common ground with the fact the Trump's rhetoric was reprehensible and that he doesn't deserve to hold the office of President?  While I personally don't believe he should be hung in the public square (why make him a martyr), I do understand the sentiment to do so.  As far as I'm concerned he was impeached by US Citizens on November 3, 2020.


----------



## Yours in futbol (Jan 14, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> *Albany, N.Y.: *Officer sent to the hospital after protester throws a brick at him
> 
> *Atlanta: *Officer Maximilian Brewer underwent surgery after a protester hit him with an ATV
> 
> ...


So based on what I assume is a comprehensive list, 1 officer was killed throughout the entirety of the 2020 riots.

And that 1 officer was killed by Dave Patrick Underwood, a MAGAt/bogoloo boy.

Is that correct?


----------



## Yours in futbol (Jan 14, 2021)

Yours in futbol said:


> So based on what I assume is a comprehensive list, 1 officer was killed throughout the entirety of the 2020 riots.
> 
> And that 1 officer was killed by Dave Patrick Underwood, a MAGAt/bogoloo boy.
> 
> Is that correct?


Edited:

That 1 officer was killed by Steven Carillo, a MAGAt/bogloo boy (who was responsible for at least one other police officer death in 2020).

Dave Patrick Underwood was the officer's name, not the MAGAt's name.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 14, 2021)

Why can't we just agree that there are ass faces on both sides? I am of the opinion that a shitty human is a shitty human, no matter their affiliation.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> You might want to check the WAPO database of police shootings before you make that statement.  My apologies for letting facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That BLM thing seems to be working.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Grace Karen is calling Liz Cheney a liar.
> 
> View attachment 9924


Amazing how libtards just make shit up.  Trump derangement syndrome is 4-years long and thriving.  By the way, Trump didn’t make this happen... you libtards did.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Amazing how libtards just make shit up.  Trump derangement syndrome is 4-years long and thriving.  By the way, Trump didn’t make this happen... you libtards did.


Coocoo.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> That BLM thing seems to be working.


Why?  Is the traditional family, with 2 parents and a value placed on education and hard work, becoming even less desirable?  

Working to rile up stupid people that don’t know the statistics.  Maybe the criminals are finally realizing their profession has consequences.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Why?  Is the traditional family, with 2 parents and a value placed on education and hard work, becoming even less desirable?
> 
> Working to rile up stupid people that don’t know the statistics.  Maybe the criminals are finally realizing their profession has consequences.


This appears to have been written by a random phrase selection robot.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You forgot to include the thousands of incidents involving people who’ve been murdered by both police and private citizens based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation. You have missed the millions of incidents in which people have been deprived of equal employment, housing and educational opportunity because of their skin color.
> 
> Seriously, the lengths to which magats will go to rationalize and defend what happened last Wed is insane. Look, here are examples to prove black people are bad, so it’s ok to overthrow the government!


You mean violent criminals that fought with police?  Please provide some names of the innocent.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> This appears to have been written by a random phrase selection robot.


You appear to continue deflecting when backed into a corner with facts.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> You mean violent criminals that fought with police?  Please provide some names of the innocent.


Breonna Taylor.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

Yours in futbol said:


> So based on what I assume is a comprehensive list, 1 officer was killed throughout the entirety of the 2020 riots.
> 
> And that 1 officer was killed by Dave Patrick Underwood, a MAGAt/bogoloo boy.
> 
> Is that correct?


David Dorn was a black cop killed, by black rioters, defending some businesses during BLM riots.  He’s not a heroic darling of the media, though, like George Floyd or Jacob Blake.  Good guys don’t sell news these days.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


Amazing how the Capitol storm was planned and and executed, well in advance of Trump uttering a single word, but it’s all his fault because he used the force to bring everyone together weeks in advance.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Breonna Taylor.


Innocent of what?  Are you uneducated about how she aided and abetted her former boyfriend in doing his drug deals?  Bummer.  Who knew being a drug dealer was illegal or dangerous?  Might be a good idea to not hide drugs, drug money or a drug dealer in your apartment.

Here’s a tip... don’t shoot at police.  They may just shoot back.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Amazing how the Capitol storm was planned and and executed, well in advance of Trump uttering a single word, but it’s all his fault because he used the force to bring everyone together weeks in advance.


He used twitter.  "It will be wild".


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Innocent of what?  Are you uneducated about how she aided and abetted her former boyfriend in doing his drug deals?  Bummer.  Who knew being a drug dealer was illegal or dangerous?  Might be a good idea to not hide drugs, drug money or a drug dealer in your apartment.
> 
> Here’s a tip... don’t shoot at police.  They may just shoot back.


You are not a supporter of second amendment rights and the principle of defending the home against intruders?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 14, 2021)

Double standards regarding violence? And double standards on deciding who is responsible?

It is worth a read.









						Trump's Democrat Impeachers and Double Standards - Frontpagemag
					

Who, exactly, is guilty of “inciting insurrection”?



					www.frontpagemag.com


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> He used twitter.  "It will be wild".


Not really the same as organizing or being responsible, is it?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> The far right and the far left are equally responsible for threats to our democracy.  While what each side did is optically different, they are not substantively different.  Both were an extreme assault on democracy and the rule of law.  Anyone who attempts to diminish, rationalize, or justify on the basis of subjective differences is part of the problem.  This isn't about whataboutism, its about what objectively happened over the last year.  Neither party can be defined by their extremes.  I think most of us are moderates and lean a little left or a little right.  Trump was a false prophet and needs to be treated as such.  Can we not at least find common ground with the fact the Trump's rhetoric was reprehensible and that he doesn't deserve to hold the office of President?  While I personally don't believe he should be hung in the public square (why make him a martyr), I do understand the sentiment to do so.  As far as I'm concerned he was impeached by US Citizens on November 3, 2020.


I'm 99% with everything you wrote.  I think what would help me get across the finish line is to better understand who we collectively think are the extremists, regardless of "side".  The challenge I have is if you look at Trump's base there's a lot to unpack there.  Reagan embraced the religious right, which was fine in my view.  Trump, though, has embraced white nationalists, Qanon conspiracy theroists, militias, etc. In my mind it doesn't matter if these people care about Trump, the point is they voted for Trump.  Now, you have republicans battling for those votes.  I have a really hard time envisioning Bush Jr. or republicans before him being ok with this.  Obviously on the left you have the antifa movement, but what are some other extremist groups I'm missing here?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You are not a supporter of second amendment rights and the principle of defending the home against intruders?


If you help a drug dealer and use your home to do it, you waive your right to defend your home against police officers doing their jobs.  If you shoot at them, you waive your right to continue breathing. 

Maybe you should google the transcripts of her phone calls with the piece of shit when he was in jail.  She wasn’t innocent of anything.

You have any other names of innocent criminals?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm 99% with everything you wrote.  I think what would help me get across the finish line is to better understand who we collectively think are the extremists, regardless of "side".  The challenge I have is if you look at Trump's base there's a lot to unpack there.  Reagan embraced the religious right, which was fine in my view.  Trump, though, has embraced white nationalists, Qanon conspiracy theroists, militias, etc. In my mind it doesn't matter if these people care about Trump, the point is they voted for Trump.  Now, you have republicans battling for those votes.  I have a really hard time envisioning Bush Jr. or republicans before him being ok with this.  Obviously on the left you have the antifa movement, but what are some other extremist groups I'm missing here?


Oh come on...you have the BLM groups too (not all of them, but remember espola took pains to point out the one leftist infiltrator I pointed out in the Capitol was BLM, not Antifa....and yes I'd apply the same standard to the Proud Boys).  There's also the Black Panthers, the Black Guerilla Family and elements of the Nation of Islam (which in particular have been out and outright antisemetic).  We Latinos also have several groups, including some dedicated to the forced retaking of Atzlan, which they maintain was forcibly stolen from Mexico.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh come on...you have the BLM groups too (not all of them, but remember espola took pains to point out the one leftist infiltrator I pointed out in the Capitol was BLM, not Antifa....and yes I'd apply the same standard to the Proud Boys).  There's also the Black Panthers, the Black Guerilla Family and elements of the Nation of Islam (which in particular have been out and outright antisemetic).  We Latinos also have several groups, including some dedicated to the forced retaking of Atzlan, which they maintain was forcibly stolen from Mexico.


My question was sincere.  Not sure where the "Oh come on.." is coming from.

But from your response, you're suggesting BLM is one of those extremist groups we should put on the "list"?


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm 99% with everything you wrote.  I think what would help me get across the finish line is to better understand who we collectively think are the extremists, regardless of "side".  The challenge I have is if you look at Trump's base there's a lot to unpack there.  Reagan embraced the religious right, which was fine in my view.  Trump, though, has embraced white nationalists, Qanon conspiracy theroists, militias, etc. In my mind it doesn't matter if these people care about Trump, the point is they voted for Trump.  Now, you have republicans battling for those votes.  I have a really hard time envisioning Bush Jr. or republicans before him being ok with this.  Obviously on the left you have the antifa movement, but what are some other extremist groups I'm missing here?


I don't think the who's who or number of groups is relevant, that's my point (and I can provide ample evidence of other left wing extremists that contributed to the violence).  I could argue that far more acts of violence were committed by the left than the right, but that's irrelevant.  I could also argue that on the whole Trump rally's were far more peaceful than BLM and Antifa protests...until they weren't.  I could argue that the right responded immediately with law and order, while the left refused to when their constituents rioted.  Those arguments are unproductive to resolving the problem of mob violence and political unrest.  We have to stop fighting on that hill of whose violence is less heinous, or "more justified".  We have to stop pretending there is some gray area of political violence, because there is not.

Maybe some Republicans are fighting for the votes of white nationalists, Qanon or right wing militias, I don't see that based on the almost universal condemnation from the Republicans of the violence (I'm excluding those that "condemned" with a wink and a nod).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> My question was sincere.  Not sure where the "Oh come on.." is coming from.
> 
> But from your response, you're suggesting BLM is one of those extremist groups we should put on the "list"?


I think they are a grey group...and yes I think the Proud Boys are too. Life's not all black and white.

p.s. to the extent they are antisemetic, those particular leftist groups thaqt are antisemitic should be on the list


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> I don't think the who's who or number of groups is relevant, that's my point (and I can provide ample evidence of other left wing extremists that contributed to the violence).  I could argue that far more acts of violence were committed by the left than the right, but that's irrelevant.  I could also argue that on the whole Trump rally's were far more peaceful than BLM and Antifa protests...until they weren't.  I could argue that the right responded immediately with law and order, while the left refused to when their constituents rioted.  Those arguments are unproductive to resolving the problem of mob violence and political unrest.  We have to stop fighting on that hill of whose violence is less heinous, or "more justified".  We have to stop pretending there is some gray area of political violence, because there is not.
> 
> Maybe some Republicans are fighting for the votes of white nationalists, Qanon or right wing militias, I don't see that based on the almost universal condemnation from the Republicans of the violence (I'm excluding those that "condemned" with a wink and a nod).


Ok, so you're more concerned about mob violence as oppose to extremists viewpoints? So for example, someone rioting because they've hit a breaking point on police brutality (whether they're right or wrong) is a bigger concern than say someone that believes in white supremacy/nationalism but is generally peaceful? 

I'm not trying to start an argument here.  I'm genuinely trying to understand.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess my point can be summed up be this part of the article I posted:
> 
> ------------
> Looking at the subset of protests in which demonstrators did not engage in any violence, vandalism, or looting, law enforcement officers were about 3.5 times more likely to use force against leftwing protests than rightwing protests, with about 1.8% of peaceful leftwing protests and only half a percent of peaceful rightwing protests met with teargas, rubber bullets or other force from law enforcement.
> ...


Some police/ex-military personnel are either already white supremacists or have been approached by/recruited by the oath keepers or similar militia groups and radicalized. They come in with a chip on their shoulder.


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Ok, so you're more concerned about mob violence as oppose to extremists viewpoints? So for example, someone rioting because they've hit a breaking point on police brutality (whether they're right or wrong) is a bigger concern than say someone that believes in white supremacy/nationalism but is generally peaceful?
> 
> I'm not trying to start an argument here.  I'm genuinely trying to understand.


I consider mob violence and extremists viewpoints essentially the same.  Extremist viewpoints often leads to violence.  In some cases viewpoints of groups may not appear to be extreme on their face, but leads to some members taking it to the extreme by inciting violence.  I will say that I grew up with a few concepts repeated by my parents  "Sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt me", "The golden rule" and "Mind your own beeswax".  I also grew up with "If you have nothing good to say, don't say it", unfortunately, I don't always comply with that one depending on the circumstances.  While those phrases may seem trite they've worked well for me through my lifetime, although I often times think were an upside down and backwards world these days.  I don't believe I can change the world, but I do believe I can help my my community with substantive actions and that's where I put my efforts.

I don't want to debate BLM, what type of group it is, is irrelevant to my point.  I will only say that my opinion of BLM is consistent with the Premier League's opinion of BLM.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 14, 2021)

*How Facial Recognition Technology Is Helping Identify the U.S. Capitol Attackers*
*Huge databases and powerful AI algorithms enable a law enforcement panopticon*
By Mark Harris









						How Facial Recognition Technology Is Helping Identify the U.S. Capitol Attackers
					

Huge databases and powerful AI algorithms enable a law enforcement panopticon




					spectrum.ieee.org


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> If you help a drug dealer and use your home to do it, you waive your right to defend your home against police officers doing their jobs.  If you shoot at them, you waive your right to continue breathing.
> 
> Maybe you should google the transcripts of her phone calls with the piece of shit when he was in jail.  She wasn’t innocent of anything.
> 
> You have any other names of innocent criminals?


The police got a no-knock warrant to find Glover, drugs, and money, citing a tip from an unnamed postal inspector.  At the time of serving the warrant and killing Taylor and wounding her boyfriend, Glover had already been arrested.  No drugs or money or packages addressed to Glover were found in the apartment.  The local postal inspector's office denied any knowledge of a tip to police about packages sent to Glover.









						Louisville postal inspector: No ‘packages of interest’ at slain EMT Breonna Taylor’s home
					

Louisville Metro Police shot and killed Taylor, an emergency room tech and former EMT, on March 13. The shooting has drawn national scrutiny and calls for an independent probe.




					www.wdrb.com


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> The police got a no-knock warrant to find Glover, drugs, and money, citing a tip from an unnamed postal inspector.  At the time of serving the warrant and killing Taylor and wounding her boyfriend, Glover had already been arrested.  No drugs or money or packages addressed to Glover were found in the apartment.  The local postal inspector's office denied any knowledge of a tip to police about packages sent to Glover.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They served half a dozen warrants that day.  They wanted to talk to her about her involvement, which was significant.  They didn’t go there to shoot her.  Witnesses heard police announce themselves, her boyfriend shot first and she paid the price.  The local postal guy isn’t relevant in any way.  Police have her drug dealer boyfriend admitting to having shit sent to her home.

Police have transcripts of phone calls between them talking about her hiding him and holding his drug money.  The media won’t volunteer that but, if it’s facts you seek, look it up.  All in black and white.  You same source, WDRB, has those same details.

If it’s innocent black lives taken that concerns you, it’s easy to find names.  They die, at the the hands of black shooters, anywhere between 25 to 30 per weekend in Chicago alone.  Your source, WDRB, has that too.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> I consider mob violence and extremists viewpoints essentially the same.  Extremist viewpoints often leads to violence.  In some cases viewpoints of groups may not appear to be extreme on their face, but leads to some members taking it to the extreme by inciting violence.  I will say that I grew up with a few concepts repeated by my parents  "Sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt me", "The golden rule" and "Mind your own beeswax".  I also grew up with "If you have nothing good to say, don't say it", unfortunately, I don't always comply with that one depending on the circumstances.  While those phrases may seem trite they've worked well for me through my lifetime, although I often times think were an upside down and backwards world these days.  I don't believe I can change the world, but I do believe I can help my my community with substantive actions and that's where I put my efforts.
> 
> I don't want to debate BLM, what type of group it is, is irrelevant to my point.  I will only say that my opinion of BLM is consistent with the Premier League's opinion of BLM.


It appears that the Premier League's opinion of BLM is that it is a political organization. They are continuing with the "no room for racism" campaign. "The league says the initiative 'will build on the momentum created last season' in which all EPL players bore a BLM logo on their jerseys the last few weeks of the season in response to the murder of George Floyd.

“We’re drawing a clear distinction between a moral cause and a political movement.”









						Premier League drops Black Lives Matter badge from shirts for own campaign
					

Premier League clubs’ shirts will not carry the Black Lives Matter slogan in the coming season




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> They served half a dozen warrants that day.  They wanted to talk to her about her involvement, which was significant.  They didn’t go there to shoot her.  Witnesses heard police announce themselves, her boyfriend shot first and she paid the price.  The local postal guy isn’t relevant in any way.  Police have her drug dealer boyfriend admitting to having shit sent to her home.
> 
> Police have transcripts of phone calls between them talking about her hiding him and holding his drug money.  The media won’t volunteer that but, if it’s facts you seek, look it up.  All in black and white.  You same source, WDRB, has those same details.
> 
> If it’s innocent black lives taken that concerns you, it’s easy to find names.  They die, at the the hands of black shooters, anywhere between 25 to 30 per weekend in Chicago alone.  Your source, WDRB, has that too.


Links?


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> They served half a dozen warrants that day.  They wanted to talk to her about her involvement, which was significant.  They didn’t go there to shoot her.  Witnesses heard police announce themselves, her boyfriend shot first and she paid the price.  The local postal guy isn’t relevant in any way.  Police have her drug dealer boyfriend admitting to having shit sent to her home.
> 
> Police have transcripts of phone calls between them talking about her hiding him and holding his drug money.  The media won’t volunteer that but, if it’s facts you seek, look it up.  All in black and white.  You same source, WDRB, has those same details.
> 
> If it’s innocent black lives taken that concerns you, it’s easy to find names.  They die, at the the hands of black shooters, anywhere between 25 to 30 per weekend in Chicago alone.  Your source, WDRB, has that too.


They knew where she lived; they knew where she worked.  The only way they could have a conversation was to break, down her door in the middle of the night?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Links?


Links to what?  I just told you they’re available on the same source you quoted.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> They knew where she lived; they knew where she worked.  The only way they could have a conversation was to break, down her door in the middle of the night?


Yeah... that’s how they stop drug dealers from flushing evidence.  You’ve never heard that before?


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Yeah... that’s how they stop drug dealers from flushing evidence.  You’ve never heard that before?


It's a long read, but it may help clear up some of your confusion --





__





						Loading…
					





					www.washingtonpost.com


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> ng?
> Yeah... that’s how they stop drug dealers from flushing evidence.  You’ve never heard that before?


If they had stopped her as she was coming out of her apartment on her way to work, how would she have flushed anything?


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Links to what?  I just told you they’re available on the same source you quoted.


Just like our resident alleged lawyer, you like to make speculative claims and then insist that others do your research for you.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> This is an interesting write up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One sided and doesn't provide the reader with an unbiased presentation.  Statistically he is correct and I don't disagree that most protests were peaceful.  But he, or they, don't address the millions of dollars in cost that did occur, or address the impact of lost businesses, and the impacts to those people.

Just another exam


MARsSPEED said:


>


Stop it - mostly peaceful.


----------



## Yours in futbol (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> David Dorn was a black cop killed, by black rioters, defending some businesses during BLM riots.  He’s not a heroic darling of the media, though, like George Floyd or Jacob Blake.  Good guys don’t sell news these days.


David Dorn was a RETIRED, 77 year old cop.  And you're incorrect that he wasn't a "media darling" - I certainly knew about the incident.

The fact is that there was one (1) police officer killed during the entirety of the 2020 race-related riots.  And that one (1) police officer was killed by a MAGA supporter.

And there was one (1) police officer killed during the 2021 MAGA insurrection riot.  Again, that police officer was killed by multiple MAGA supporters.  There was also a second police officer who took his own life following the 2021 MAGA insurrection riot, whose death the DC police attributed to the 2021 MAGA insurrection riot, but let's leave that aside for now.

If there's a point here, it would appear to be that, because there are only two (2) known instances where rioters killed a police officer between 2020 race riots and 2021 MAGA insurrection riots, and in BOTH of those incidents, MAGAts were the ones that murdered the police officers, then it is incorrect for MAGA supporters to argue that "just as many police officers were killed by 2020 race rioters and the media ignored it."

But I wasn't trying to make a point.  I was legitimately curious if the MAGAts had any facts to substantiate the argument.


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It appears that the Premier League's opinion of BLM is that it is a political organization. They are continuing with the "no room for racism" campaign. "The league says the initiative 'will build on the momentum created last season' in which all EPL players bore a BLM logo on their jerseys the last few weeks of the season in response to the murder of George Floyd.
> 
> “We’re drawing a clear distinction between a moral cause and a political movement.”
> 
> ...


The EPL was not comfortable with some of the BLM organizations policies including defund the police.  My sentiments exactly.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You forgot to include the thousands of incidents involving people who’ve been murdered by both police and private citizens based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation. You have missed the millions of incidents in which people have been deprived of equal employment, housing and educational opportunity because of their skin color.
> 
> Seriously, the lengths to which magats will go to rationalize and defend what happened last Wed is insane. Look, here are examples to prove black people are bad, so it’s ok to overthrow the government!


I'm so happy that you are out there looking out for us black folks.  I suppose since you are in such lock step solidarity with us, I'll let it slide that the majority of poverty stricken black Americans reside in  Liberal strongholds.  Keep telling us to wait for you and the government to lift us up out of poverty , provide me opportunity.  Fool me once, fool me twice...well, keep fooling me - I'll keep voting for you. Right?

So please, put down your magat shield, put on your "I'm here to help you black person" cape, float into Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago, and help us.  I can't wait.  Please focus on Baltimore, they've had since 1967 to figure things out.  Maybe take your playbook there and see if they will listen to you.  I am hopeful for the future.  The incoming administration has a wonderful track record of lifting up poor black folk.  I mean, when a white guy tells you that you ain't black if you don't vote for him..that's serious stuff and proves that he's looking out..

I'm excited!!


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I'm so happy that you are out there looking out for us black folks.  I suppose since you are in such lock step solidarity with us, I'll let it slide that the majority of poverty stricken black Americans reside in  Liberal strongholds.  Keep telling us to wait for you and the government to lift us up out of poverty , provide me opportunity.  Fool me once, fool me twice...well, keep fooling me - I'll keep voting for you. Right?
> 
> So please, put down your magat shield, put on your "I'm here to help you black person" cape, float into Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago, and help us.  I can't wait.  Please focus on Baltimore, they've had since 1967 to figure things out.  Maybe take your playbook there and see if they will listen to you.  I am hopeful for the future.  The incoming administration has a wonderful track record of lifting up poor black folk.  I mean, when a white guy tells you that you ain't black if you don't vote for him..that's serious stuff and proves that he's looking out..
> 
> I'm excited!!


Herman Cain? I thought you were dead?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Herman Cain? I thought you were dead?


I figured you weren't really looking to help - just talk.  Thanks for looking out though..


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

This guy is looking for a lawyer who believes that antifa was behind the Capitol riot.  Does anyone have any suggestions?

The second informant said that Stager claimed he “did not know the man he was struck on the ground with the flagpole was a cop and that he thought the person he was striking was Antifa.”

The officer was easily identifiable, however, as he was wearing a uniform with the words “METROPOLITAN POLICE” across his back, prosecutors said.









						‘Death Is the Only Remedy’: Capitol Rioter Charged for Beating D.C. Cop With American Flagpole
					

Peter Stager allegedly claimed he thought the Metropolitan Police officer was a member of “antifa.”




					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> This guy is looking for a lawyer who believes that antifa was behind the Capitol riot.  Does anyone have any suggestions?


I bet Giuliani would do it.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> This guy is looking for a lawyer who believes that antifa was behind the Capitol riot.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> The second informant said that Stager claimed he “did not know the man he was struck on the ground with the flagpole was a cop and that he thought the person he was striking was Antifa.”
> 
> ...


Grace Karen needs the work I hear.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I figured you weren't really looking to help - just talk.  Thanks for looking out though..


Clearly it is very frustrating to you and others that I don’t talk about myself or, worse, try to live vicariously through my kid(s) (if any).

I suppose I could tell you all about how I debated Ted Cruz in HS, or worked an unpaid internship in law school, or wrote a term paper in college, but that would be a sad and pathetic attempt to establish credibility, don’t you think?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

Keep up the passive aggressive whining Magat Karen Parler. Let’s see what Carter appointee Judge Barbara Rothstein says about your round one with Amazon. She is famous for holding that it is unconstitutional to ban flag burning and, more recently, for kicking Betsy Devos in the teeth.









						Parler CEO says social media app, favored by Trump supporters, may not return
					

Matze said that Parler was talking to more than one cloud computing service but refused to disclose names, citing the likelihood of harassment for the companies involved.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It appears that the Premier League's opinion of BLM is that it is a political organization. They are continuing with the "no room for racism" campaign. "The league says the initiative 'will build on the momentum created last season' in which all EPL players bore a BLM logo on their jerseys the last few weeks of the season in response to the murder of George Floyd.
> 
> “We’re drawing a clear distinction between a moral cause and a political movement.”
> 
> ...


It is a political organization.  A bullshit, phony organization that stands on tables of people eating dinner, threatening physical violence if you don’t succumb to their bullying.  Too bad more law abiding citizens weren’t strapped during that period of arson and violence.  Some laws enforce themselves.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

Joe Biden is so fucking incompetent and full of shit.  Stuttering and stammering over a speech someone else wrote.  I guess a 50-year career on the taxpayer’s tit wasn’t quite enough for him to fix everything.  So prepare yourself for another liberal to say all the right things, tax your ass off to do it and accomplish absolutely nothing.  That’s the libtard way!


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 14, 2021)

happy9 said:


> One sided and doesn't provide the reader with an unbiased presentation.  Statistically he is correct and I don't disagree that most protests were peaceful.  But he, or they, don't address the millions of dollars in cost that did occur, or address the impact of lost businesses, and the impacts to those people.


Might be a hard to measure that given Boogaloo Bois and other accelerationist groups attended some of these protests:









						Boogaloo movement - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Just a mess.  Groups actively wanting to ignite a civil war.  I always envisioned there would be some kind of uprising but I thought it would be over income inequality.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It's a long read, but it may help clear up some of your confusion --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would I read or care about an opinion piece?  Is that more credible than recorded conversations and transcripts that were necessary because the uneducated drug dealer speaks like an invalid?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> If they had stopped her as she was coming out of her apartment on her way to work, how would she have flushed anything?


Or better yet, why didn’t she just follow the law?  I don’t have any pity for criminals.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Clearly it is very frustrating to you and others that I don’t talk about myself or, worse, try to live vicariously through my kid(s) (if any).
> 
> I suppose I could tell you all about how I debated Ted Cruz in HS, or worked an unpaid internship in law school, or wrote a term paper in college, but that would be a sad and pathetic attempt to establish credibility, don’t you think?


Frustrating?  You never shut up.  The only thing you don’t talk about is your lack of a kid playing soccer and why you’re here all day, every day.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> It is a political organization.  A bullshit, phony organization that stands on tables of people eating dinner, threatening physical violence if you don’t succumb to their bullying.  Too bad more law abiding citizens weren’t strapped during that period of arson and violence.  Some laws enforce themselves.


I have n idea what that means.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Or better yet, why didn’t she just follow the law?  I don’t have any pity for criminals.


There has been no suggestion from any law enforcement authority that she broke any laws connected with the disaster.  On the other hand, one policeman has been fired and indicted and investigation into the others is pending.  Some facts are known at this point -- they lied in the affidavit to get the no-knock warrant, they disobeyed orders of their superiors about how to conduct the raid, and they altered some official reports to make themselves look less guilty (unfortunately for them, they didn't alter ALL the documents).  You would have known all that if you had read the article I offered.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> I bet Giuliani would do it.


Do you think he can afford $20K daily?

Rudy is probably looking for a gig, now that T has stiffed him on his fees.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Just like our resident alleged lawyer, you like to make speculative claims and then insist that others do your research for you.


So you did your own research to make a point but now you’re too busy to visit that same site and do a search for “Breonna jail recording transcripts”?  No wonder you’re just another, libtard sheep.  You don’t want to be informed of the facts.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> So you did your own research to make a point but now you’re too busy to visit that same site and do a search for “Breonna jail recording transcripts”?  No wonder you’re just another, libtard sheep.  You don’t want to be informed of the facts.


I backed up my statements.  The ball is now in your court.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> There has been no suggestion from any law enforcement authority that she broke any laws connected with the disaster.  On the other hand, one policeman has been fired and indicted and investigation into the others is pending.  Some facts are known at this point -- they lied in the affidavit to get the no-knock warrant, they disobeyed orders of their superiors about how to conduct the raid, and they altered some official reports to make themselves look less guilty (unfortunately for them, they didn't alter ALL the documents).  You would have known all that if you had read the article I offered.


Well, she’s dead so I doubt it’s worth pressing charges now, right?  Listen to the recordings and read the transcripts.  She knowingly and willfully helped him commit crimes for years.

Don’t give me the “babe in the woods routine”, Karen.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> I backed up my statements.  The ball is now in your court.


Why bother?  So you can still blame the cops and say it was entrapment?  LMAO!

The only thing you backed up was your denial.  Breonna and the drug dealer good... cops bad.  Save the bullshit.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 14, 2021)

happy9 said:


> One sided and doesn't provide the reader with an unbiased presentation.  Statistically he is correct and I don't disagree that most protests were peaceful.  But he, or they, don't address the millions of dollars in cost that did occur, or address the impact of lost businesses, and the impacts to those people.
> 
> Just another exam
> 
> ...


Not millions in damage...billions.

Also I was reading that most biz don't carry insurance as it relates to riots. So that leaves many screwed.

Remember the various talking heads and writers saying hey it is just property, insurance will fix all.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Well, she’s dead so I doubt it’s worth pressing charges now, right?  Listen to the recordings and read the transcripts.  She knowingly and willfully helped him commit crimes for years.
> 
> Don’t give me the “babe in the woods routine”, Karen.


She knew he was a bad druggie, so she dumped him.  Isn't that in the transcripts?


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Why bother?  So you can still blame the cops and say it was entrapment?  LMAO!
> 
> The only thing you backed up was your denial.  Breonna and the drug dealer good... cops bad.  Save the bullshit.


If you have facts to counter my position, now is your opportunity to present them.  Simply repeating your opinions is pointless.

That's how civilized discussions work.


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Do you think he can afford $20K daily?
> 
> Rudy is probably looking for a gig, now that T has stiffed him on his fees.


Hair dye doesn't pay for itself.  Talk about someone who has completely lost his marbles.  Hard to believe it's the same guy that saved NYC.


----------



## espola (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> Hair dye doesn't pay for itself.  Talk about someone who has completely lost his marbles.  Hard to believe it's the same guy that saved NYC.


And Dershowitz unaccountably went with him.  Do you suppose t inherited Epstein's extensive video library.?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 14, 2021)

watfly said:


> Hair dye doesn't pay for itself.  Talk about someone who has completely lost his marbles.  Hard to believe it's the same guy that saved NYC.


I know, RIGHT!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Not really the same as organizing or being responsible, is it?


Charles Manson never killed anyone either.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Just like our resident alleged lawyer, you like to make speculative claims and then insist that others do your research for you.


That’s the trumpian way.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Grace Karen needs the work I hear.


Can all you do is name call? What are you, 5? I don't get how that is constructive. Unless you two are secretly married and trolling us all.


----------



## watfly (Jan 14, 2021)

espola said:


> And Dershowitz unaccountably went with him.  Do you suppose t inherited Epstein's extensive video library.?


Not a good look for Dersh.  That Netflix doc is disturbing.  I'd bet that Clinton has a share of those videos...Hillary, not Bill.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Can all you do is name call? What are you, 5? I don't get how that is constructive. Unless you two are secretly married and trolling us all.


Our President showed us that’s what we should do. Four years straight. Are you saying it’s wrong?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Our President showed us that’s what we should do. Four years straight. Are you saying it’s wrong?


You attempt to be the master of twisting words. I have said eleventy billion times I am one of those lovely libtards that so many on this thread talk about. Why the hell would I defend Trump? I'm just not interested in beating a dead ass horse carcass. Like seriously-listening to you attemp these verbal gymnastics is almost comical. Don't confuse me with someone who won't take you to task.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> You attempt to be the master of twisting words. I have said eleventy billion times I am one of those lovely libtards that so many on this thread talk about. Why the hell would I defend Trump? I'm just not interested in beating a dead ass horse carcass. Like seriously-listening to you attemp these verbal gymnastics is almost comical. Don't confuse me with someone who won't take you to task.


Did I accuse you of defending Cadet Bone Spurs?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Clearly it is very frustrating to you and others that I don’t talk about myself or, worse, try to live vicariously through my kid(s) (if any).
> 
> I suppose I could tell you all about how I debated Ted Cruz in HS, or worked an unpaid internship in law school, or wrote a term paper in college, but that would be a sad and pathetic attempt to establish credibility, don’t you think?


Not frustrating at all. Silly to say that you don't talk about yourself but your rhetoric says a lot about you.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Did I accuse you of defending Cadet Bone Spurs?


Ok, I see you are acting like a Toddler with a wet diaper. Enjoy rambling with yourself. I've better conversations with dryer lint.


----------



## notintheface (Jan 14, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Amazing how the Capitol storm was planned and and executed, well in advance of Trump uttering a single word, but it’s all his fault because he used the force to bring everyone together weeks in advance.


Osama Bin Laden didn't fly the planes.


----------



## N00B (Jan 14, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Osama Bin Laden didn't fly the planes.


So you’re implying that this was tactically coordinated from the White House... in advance? Or that Osama didn’t have direct involvement in the organization of that attack?

Stupidity of the highest magnitude to host a rally at that day and time, Yes.

Idiotic to not accept the outcome of the election at that stage of the process, Yes.

Other than that, I can’t follow your implied premise.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Our President showed us that’s what we should do. Four years straight. Are you saying it’s wrong?


Sounds like you are a devout follower.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 14, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Sounds like you are a devout follower.


Was this kind of behavior worth it to you? Did you get enough in four years to justify it?


----------



## N00B (Jan 14, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Was this kind of behavior worth it to you? Did you get enough in four years to justify it?


Nope, but you somehow feel justified to do so on a continuous basis.


----------



## crush (Jan 15, 2021)

A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived
					

A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush (Jan 15, 2021)

Bump


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Might be a hard to measure that given Boogaloo Bois and other accelerationist groups attended some of these protests:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This stuff is complicated and tedious to figure out.  Plenty of rhetoric at both ends of the spectrum. Neither side (far right/far left) really have the resources to do more than what they are doing now - taking advantage of unrest and squeezing into the  margins and making things worse, at certain moments in time

The federal government has zero appetite for going after these groups (Boogaloo Bois, Antifa, Proud Boys, blah, blah, blah).  In reality there aren't enough of them that are full time.  Besides, plenty of evidence on both sides that members of local and federal law enforcement align with the ideologies on both sides of the fence and are part time members.  This hampers efforts to affect these groups long term.  For the most part, members of these groups are part time, hanging out in the woods on the weekend, trying to improve their poor marksmanship.  

I don't subscribe to the idea that American Society will be fractured and that fracture will be initiated by these groups.  They really aren't that sophisticated to operate at that level.  With that said, the far right groups are the more dangerous in terms of a single, mass casualty incident.  Proof is in the pudding - OKC bombing, Eric Rudolph, and other, smaller incidents.  They have better training and their core, permanent groups are dedicated to their cause. 

While the assault on the Capitol building was terrible, it was a target of opportunity.  Frankly, I'm sure there are many on the far right who are kicking themselves in the ass as they saw the lack of security demonstrated.  If this had been truly a planned, coordinated event by a sophisticated group, the body count would have been higher, there would have been big booms.  These groups would never go head to head with federal law enforcement unless they have to.  What we saw on tv was a bunch of idiots vandalizing our capitol. There were pipe bombs found but not much has been said about their level of sophistication.  That could be an entirely different event with a different purpose.

But, we can sit on these forums and spew partisan rhetoric.  It really means nothing.  It will be interesting to see how the end of the month plays out.  Federal law enforcement is doing what it normally does, react.  They will dedicate their full array of assets for a short time against these groups and make it very difficult for them to operate.  Come 1 FEB or so, it will go back to business as usual.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Was this kind of behavior worth it to you? Did you get enough in four years to justify it?


Get enough what?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

happy9 said:


> This stuff is complicated and tedious to figure out.  Plenty of rhetoric at both ends of the spectrum. Neither side (far right/far left) really have the resources to do more than what they are doing now - taking advantage of unrest and squeezing into the  margins and making things worse, at certain moments in time
> 
> The federal government has zero appetite for going after these groups (Boogaloo Bois, Antifa, Proud Boys, blah, blah, blah).  In reality there aren't enough of them that are full time.  Besides, plenty of evidence on both sides that members of local and federal law enforcement align with the ideologies on both sides of the fence and are part time members.  This hampers efforts to affect these groups long term.  For the most part, members of these groups are part time, hanging out in the woods on the weekend, trying to improve their poor marksmanship.
> 
> ...


Appeasing and downplaying a group that tried to overthrow the government - a group that you support with your votes - is the real problem.  You seem to think it’s no big deal and want to pretend everything is fine so you can get back to supporting those who foster hateful policies and behavior that you “tolerate” so you can support the hateful policies that you love

As with other apologists, you fail or refuse to accept that the problem is not what, happened, but why.  You focus on the incompetence (this time) of the effort. It is the “why” that is important, however. It happened because a large number of Americans are weak-minded fools who have been deluded into believing anything the Bronze Baboon says, and an even greater number of people like you understand that you need the insurrectionists, white supremacists, homophobes, anti-semites and corrupt conmen as elected officials, if you’re going to have any chance of preventing someone from exercising their right to choose. 

The Republican party has turned into the party of everything hateful and crazy by virtue of the fact that this is what’s necessary to get enough votes.Y’all tolerate and minimize what is in your party, as well as their impact, because you don’t want to admit that you created Frankenstein and lost control of him.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Appeasing and downplaying a group that tried to overthrow the government - a group that you support with your votes - is the real problem.  You seem to think it’s no big deal and want to pretend everything is fine so you can get back to supporting those who foster hateful policies and behavior that you “tolerate” so you can support the hateful policies that you love
> 
> As with other apologists, you fail or refuse to accept that the problem is not what, happened, but why.  You focus on the incompetence (this time) of the effort. It is the “why” that is important, however. It happened because a large number of Americans are weak-minded fools who have been deluded into believing anything the Bronze Baboon says, and an even greater number of people like you understand that you need the insurrectionists, white supremacists, homophobes, anti-semites and corrupt conmen as elected officials, if you’re going to have any chance of preventing someone from exercising their right to choose.
> 
> The Republican party has turned into the party of everything hateful and crazy by virtue of the fact that this is what’s necessary to get enough votes.Y’all tolerate and minimize what is in your party, as well as their impact, because you don’t want to admit that you created Frankenstein and lost control of him.


Exhibit A:



crush said:


> A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived
> 
> 
> A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived
> ...


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

crush said:


> A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived
> 
> 
> A Deleted Bill Gates Documentary Has Been Revived
> ...


Welcome back Crushpiracy Theorist. You should go back to living vicariously through Trinity Rodman.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Appeasing and downplaying a group that tried to overthrow the government - a group that you support with your votes - is the real problem.  You seem to think it’s no big deal and want to pretend everything is fine so you can get back to supporting those who foster hateful policies and behavior that you “tolerate” so you can support the hateful policies that you love
> 
> As with other apologists, you fail or refuse to accept that the problem is not what, happened, but why.  You focus on the incompetence (this time) of the effort. It is the “why” that is important, however. It happened because a large number of Americans are weak-minded fools who have been deluded into believing anything the Bronze Baboon says, and an even greater number of people like you understand that you need the insurrectionists, white supremacists, homophobes, anti-semites and corrupt conmen as elected officials, if you’re going to have any chance of preventing someone from exercising their right to choose.
> 
> The Republican party has turned into the party of everything hateful and crazy by virtue of the fact that this is what’s necessary to get enough votes.Y’all tolerate and minimize what is in your party, as well as their impact, because you don’t want to admit that you created Frankenstein and lost control of him.


ahhhh   .  Wipe the froth off of your chin, it's unbecoming. My post had nothing to do with your orange kin that you hate so much.  Left and Right wing groups  were here before your self created marmalade deity was around, and they'll be here long after he's gone.  For now, continue to focus your efforts and time on the object of your desire.  Nice job on avoiding the T word though.  You are showing progress.  You've gone from being situationally aware to situationally understanding your surroundings.  Can't ask for more. 

carry on.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

happy9 said:


> ahhhh   .  Wipe the froth off of your chin, it's unbecoming. My post had nothing to do with your orange kin that you hate so much.  Left and Right wing groups  were here before your self created marmalade deity was around, and they'll be here long after he's gone.  For now, continue to focus your efforts and time on the object of your desire.  Nice job on avoiding the T word though.  You are showing progress.  You've gone from being situationally aware to situationally understanding your surroundings.  Can't ask for more.
> 
> carry on.


Only one group in history has stormed the Capitol in an insurrection intended to overthrow the government of the U.S.  It happens to be the side you support with your vote and your apologies. You know, it’s the one with the trumpanzees.


----------



## watfly (Jan 15, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> You attempt to be the master of twisting words. I have said eleventy billion times I am one of those lovely libtards that so many on this thread talk about. Why the hell would I defend Trump? I'm just not interested in beating a dead ass horse carcass. Like seriously-listening to you attemp these verbal gymnastics is almost comical. Don't confuse me with someone who won't take you to task.


You don't strike me as a "libtard", whatever that means exactly.  My impression is that you're a common sense, left leaning moderate.


----------



## N00B (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Only one group in history has stormed the Capitol in an insurrection intended to overthrow the government of the U.S.  It happens to be the side you support with your vote and your apologies. You know, it’s the one with the trumpanzees.


Continuing to push for ‘Unity’ are you?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Only one group in history has stormed the Capitol in an insurrection intended to overthrow the government of the U.S.  It happens to be the side you support with your vote and your apologies. You know, it’s the one with the trumpanzees.


Which group did that?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

N00B said:


> Continuing to push for ‘Unity’ are you?


 The force is not strong with him.  He provides much needed breaks from legit intellectual activities throughout the day.  A service he dutifully provides.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

happy9 said:


> The force is not strong with him.  He provides much needed breaks from legit intellectual activities throughout the day.  A service he dutifully provides.


Your trumpanzee ways do not bother me. To the contrary, they have freed me from the shackles of decency, empathy and decorum that has never existed with you magats. So much fun.


----------



## crush (Jan 15, 2021)

Bump


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 15, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Which group did that?


History is not a strong point for him.

On July 2, 1915, a former German professor at Harvard, Erich Muenter, planted a package containing three sticks of dynamite in the Capitol near the Senate Reception room. The explosive detonated around midnight and during a time when the Senate had been on recess. An on-duty Capitol Police officer was nearly knocked out of his chair during the blast, but fortunately no one was injured.

--

On March 1, 1954, four Puerto Rican Americans fired guns in the House of Representatives, injuring five congressmen. The attackers said they acted to demand independence for the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico. (Puerto Ricans have U.S. citizenship but can’t vote for president and have no voting representatives in Congress.) The injured congressmen survived, and the four shooters received prison sentences. President Jimmy Carter commuted one of their sentences in 1977, and granted clemency to the other three in 1979.

--

On March 1, 1971, a bomb exploded in the Capitol building. While the explosion did not injure anyone, it caused some $300,000 in damage. A group calling itself the Weather Underground claimed to be behind the bombing and said it was in protest of the ongoing U.S.-supported bombing of Laos. 

--

Thirteen years later, on November 7, 1983, a bomb tore through the second floor of the Senate wing of the Capitol. The device detonated late in the evening and no one was harmed, but it caused an estimated $250,000 in damage. A group calling itself the Armed Resistance Unit later claimed responsibility for the attack, saying it was in retaliation for military actions in Grenada and Lebanon. Seven people were eventually arrested in connection with the attack.

--

Political causes aside, individuals have committed acts of violence on Capitol grounds through the decades. These incidents include an 1890 fatal shooting sparked by a feud between a reporter and a former congressman and a 1998 fatal shooting of two Capitol Police officers in 1998 by a man who claimed the U.S. was plagued by cannibalism and a fictional disease.

--


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

espola said:


> She knew he was a bad druggie, so she dumped him.  Isn't that in the transcripts?


She knew he was a drug dealer, for years, and didn’t dump him.  She bailed him out of jail and handled his money.  That’s in the transcripts.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

espola said:


> If you have facts to counter my position, now is your opportunity to present them.  Simply repeating your opinions is pointless.
> 
> That's how civilized discussions work.


The facts are on the same site YOU referenced.  If you want to be learned, you’ll invest the 5 minutes.  Nobody is paying me to educate you.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Did I accuse you of defending Cadet Bone Spurs?


We’re you Trump’s physician?  Can you disprove he had bone spurs?


----------



## espola (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> She knew he was a drug dealer, for years, and didn’t dump him.  She bailed him out of jail and handled his money.  That’s in the transcripts.


Show me.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 15, 2021)

History....How quickly people for get. Granted this was all of 10 yrs ago so maybe that is an excuse for not remembering. But then again it is interesting to see how many people forgot about the rioting over the summer and the comments Dem leaders and the press had at the time which were very supportive. Today? Well since the other side had some people do it, it is beyond the pale and somehow reflects on all Rs...despite the fact that all the R leaders have condemned this violence. 

Lets do a consistency check real fast. 

Summer riots. Dems generally supportive of it. See statements by Pelosi and Harris as just some examples. The Rs? Condemned the violent parts of the protests. 
Last week? Dems condemn the violence as did the Rs. 
Which group has been consistent in their condemnation of riots? Which group was not when some members of their base were rioting? 

Anyway lets go down memory lane....

“Thousands of protesters rushed to the … Capitol Wednesday night, forcing their way through doors, crawling through windows and jamming corridors.” That is how one newspaper described the storming of the Capitol — not the one in Washington last week, but the state Capitol in Madison, Wis., a decade ago.

Back then, thousands of pro-union activists — many bused in from out of state — rampaged through the historic building in an effort to stop a vote on collective bargaining reform legislation. So, when I saw the images of a pro-Trump mob rampaging through the U.S. Capitol last week, my first thought was: What is Scott Walker thinking right now?
“It’s like I’m having PTSD from a decade ago,” the former Republican governor of Wisconsin texted me.

Most conservatives have condemned the right-wing mob that assaulted the U.S. Capitol. But 10 years ago, *Democrats embraced the left-wing mob that occupied the state Capitol in Madison. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) praised the occupiers for an “impressive show of democracy in action” and tweeted as they assaulted the Capitol that she continued “to stand in solidarity” with the union activists. *In other words, Democrats were for occupying capitols before they were against it."

--

“Standing on the capitol steps at dusk, [Secretary of Administration] Mike Huebsch watched as an army of thousands formed on State Street and began marching toward him,” we wrote. “Soon they had descended on the building, banging on the doors and windows, chanting, ‘Let us in! Let us in!’ The small contingent of capitol police was quickly overwhelmed. Protesters ripped the hinges of an antique oak door at the State Street entrance and streamed inside. Mike watched in disbelief as the window to Democratic Representative Cory Mason’s office opened right in front of him and protesters began crawling into the building. Once inside, they began unlocking doors and bathroom windows until a sea of thousands had flooded the capitol.”
The police retreated in the face of the horde, giving up the first floor, then the second. “The protesters ran amok, chanting ‘This is our house!’ and ‘This is what democracy looks like!’ ” we wrote. “And they then began searching for the Republican senators who had dared to defy the will of the unions.” *As the crowd scoured the building looking for the offending legislators, police sneaked them out through an underground tunnel to a government building across the street. But a Democratic representative posted on social media that the Republican senators were escaping through the tunnels, so when the senators came up into the lobby, the mob was there waiting for them. *

“The tall windows that framed the lobby were plastered with people yelling and banging on the glass,” we wrote. “They were trapped. The senators hid under a stairwell, out of view, while the police ordered a city bus to pull up in front of the building. Officers then formed a human wall on the sidewalk, parting the sea of protesters and creating a pathway for the senators to reach the bus.” *Once the senators were on board, “the mob on the street began punching the windows and shaking the vehicle. … The police told the senators and staff inside to keep their heads down in case a window shattered.”*

Thankfully, no one was killed. But during the course of the occupation, Walker received a steady stream of death threats against him and his wife, including one that promised to “gut her like a deer” and one threatening to kill his sons. Police found dozens of .22-caliber bullets scattered across the Capitol grounds. *The occupiers drew chalk outlines of fake dead bodies etched with Walker’s name on the floor, and carried signs that read “Death to tyrants,” “The only good Republican is a dead Republican” and one with picture of him in crosshairs with the words, “Don’t retreat, Reload.”*


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> History is not a strong point for him.
> 
> On July 2, 1915, a former German professor at Harvard, Erich Muenter, planted a package containing three sticks of dynamite in the Capitol near the Senate Reception room. The explosive detonated around midnight and during a time when the Senate had been on recess. An on-duty Capitol Police officer was nearly knocked out of his chair during the blast, but fortunately no one was injured.
> 
> ...


Such false equivalencies. Apologist.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> We’re you Trump’s physician?  Can you disprove he had bone spurs?


This is the hill you want to die on? Really?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

notintheface said:


> Osama Bin Laden didn't fly the planes.


Your best buddy calls that a straw man argument.  You clowns have bitched about everything Trump has said or done for 4 years.  It’s personal for you.  TDS.  I thought Obama was worthless but I can find good things to say about him.  For example, he was a charismatic speaker.  Lots of flair.  And like every other liberal, he talked a good game and accomplished jack shit in 8 years.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> This is the hill you want to die on? Really?


Were you Trump’s physician or do you have access to his medical records?  Or do you just know more about his taxes than the SEC and IRS?  

Really.


----------



## espola (Jan 15, 2021)

Excerpt from the official Pentaon transcript of the Acting Secretary of Defense at today's press conference --

"I’m not…I…that investment, for…that capability, that we’re never supposed to use, ‘well, we have to deter, blah blah bluh blah…Are we fifth generation?  You know we…I think it’s hilarious, you know, right now, you know, ‘well we need to invest in the sixth generation,’ I’m like, we have created a monster, but you know that."


----------



## espola (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Were you Trump’s physician or do you have access to his medical records?  Or do you just know more about his taxes than the SEC and IRS?
> 
> Really.


Did you know that the word "gullible" does not appear in any online dictionary?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 15, 2021)

EOTL said:


> the shackles of decency, empathy and decorum that has never existed with you magats.


The fact that you think  these qualities genuinely exist within either side of the fence is laughable.  They only exist when it's in their best interest.  Tighten up that cape and continue on your crusade.  

Enjoy your weekend and keep working on your material.


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Excerpt from the official Pentaon transcript of the Acting Secretary of Defense at today's press conference --
> 
> "I’m not…I…that investment, for…that capability, that we’re never supposed to use, ‘well, we have to deter, blah blah bluh blah…Are we fifth generation?  You know we…I think it’s hilarious, you know, right now, you know, ‘well we need to invest in the sixth generation,’ I’m like, we have created a monster, but you know that."


I didn't know Biden was the Acting Secretary of Defense????


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 15, 2021)

And one for @EOTL. Wise words from his hero.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Did you know that the word "gullible" does not appear in any online dictionary?


So you don’t have proof, either, Straw Man?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 15, 2021)

watfly said:


> You don't strike me as a "libtard", whatever that means exactly.  My impression is that you're a common sense, left leaning moderate.


Exactly! But, as you know, to some people here that  = libtard!


----------



## espola (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> So you don’t have proof, either, Straw Man?


I posted a link to the article that supports my statements.  Didn't you read it yet?


----------



## crush (Jan 15, 2021)

This one tripped me out a long time ago and is the #1 reason that shit is not entering my body by arm to my brain.  WTF is all this about anyways?  Is this for reals or videoshopped?  The things people can do to scare the crap out of you is crazy.  All those beheadings by ISIS was BS too and was all a play to insight fear so the war dudes can make money.  We got played, all of us. 









						Bill Gates Briefing to CIA April 2015
					

None




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 15, 2021)

The damage has already been done, but....









						Retraction
					

We received a lengthy letter from Dominion's defamation lawyers explaining why they believe that their client has been the victim of defamatory statements.  Having considered the full import of the letter, we have agreed to their reques...




					www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Exactly! But, as you know, to some people here that  = libtard!


Just to clarify, the term originated after Trump won and liberals began losing their minds.  Each, former “democrat” saying something more outrageous than the next for the sole purpose of showing  how progressive and far away they could get from Trump.

Open borders?  YES!  Eliminate ICE and border patrol?  YES!  Give illegal aliens free healthcare but not U.S. citizens?  YES!  Start emptying jails and prisons because violent criminals are just misunderstood?  YES!  Take money away from police so it’s harder for them to do their jobs better?  YES!  Raise a 16-year old’s wage to $15 an hour, for sweeping floors, knowing jobs will just be cut?  YES!  Keep taxing wealthy people even more, so we all feel they’re paying their ‘fair share’ and knowing they’ll cut jobs and leave the markets?  YES!  Let anyone use the bathroom of their choice, depending on what they identify with on that day?  YES! 

If you went off the rails with the idiots, you qualify.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Just to clarify, the term originated after Trump won and liberals began losing their minds.  Each, former “democrat” saying something more outrageous than the next for the sole purpose of showing  how progressive and far away they could get from Trump.
> 
> Open borders?  YES!  Eliminate ICE and border patrol?  YES!  Give illegal aliens free healthcare but not U.S. citizens?  YES!  Start emptying jails and prisons because violent criminals are just misunderstood?  YES!  Take money away from police so it’s harder for them to do their jobs better?  YES!  Raise a 16-year old’s wage to $15 an hour, for sweeping floors, knowing jobs will just be cut?  YES!  Keep taxing wealthy people even more, so we all feel they’re paying their ‘fair share’ and knowing they’ll cut jobs and leave the markets?  YES!  Let anyone use the bathroom of their choice, depending on what they identify with on that day?  YES!
> 
> If you went off the rails with the idiots, you qualify.


I can confidently say that I did not go off any rails! I know how to lose graciously.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I can confidently say that I did not go off any rails! I know how to lose graciously.


I assumed as much.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I posted a link to the article that supports my statements.  Didn't you read it yet?


Nope.  I already know what you think.  You think she was an innocent victim.  I don’t.  It’s horrible she died but it wasn’t because the police did anything wrong.  She helped her drug dealing boyfriend and died because of it.  I know the facts.


----------



## espola (Jan 15, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Nope.  I already know what you think.  You think she was an innocent victim.  I don’t.  It’s horrible she died but it wasn’t because the police did anything wrong.  She helped her drug dealing boyfriend and died because of it.  I know the facts.


The cop who was fired didn't do anything wrong?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 16, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I can confidently say that I did not go off any rails! I know how to lose graciously.


Yes but when one person once said something it means they all believe it . . . kinda like those that make excuses for storming the Capitol building.


----------



## espola (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The cop who was fired didn't do anything wrong?


Correction -- three of the cops involved in that raid have been fired, as well as the Chief of Police for the way he handled the investigation of the affair.


----------



## crush (Jan 16, 2021)

Painful to watch for Crush.  Say what you want about choice, but this is taking it way too far.  This is big business you guys.  $1600 for fetus liver to the middleman.  Middleman then sells it for big money.  Truth hurts no matter where you stand on moral issue. 
It's interesting to watch people say their right and your wrong.  It's 100% a different story when under deposition.  LIGHT, CAMERA and ACTION!!!!  All your texts and email chains come to the light and you have to answer the question truthfully.  Basically, good luck lying in this environment.  Email chain is deadly.  The truth shall set you free.  Confess before it's too late.  Love you guys


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 16, 2021)

crush said:


> Painful to watch for Crush.  Say what you want about choice, but this is taking it way too far.  This is big business you guys.  $1600 for fetus liver to the middleman.  Middleman then sells it for big money.  Truth hurts no matter where you stand on moral issue.
> It's interesting to watch people say their right and your wrong.  It's 100% a different story when under deposition.  LIGHT, CAMERA and ACTION!!!!  All your texts and email chains come to the light and you have to answer the question truthfully.  Basically, good luck lying in this environment.  Email chain is deadly.  The truth shall set you free.  Confess before it's too late.  Love you guys


This kinda thing helped trump recover from covid, supposedly.


----------



## crush (Jan 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> This kinda thing helped trump recover from covid, supposedly.


So much rumor Husker.  Until we get them ALL under oath we won't know the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  We will ALL be watching the truth soon.  Nothing else will be allowed to be viewed.  Get ready to see the truth.  BTW, the truth has no friends.  The truth is the truth.  If your ok with making money off livers and hearts, then why not have underground lab to born the little fetuses into real humans with no birth certificate?  #1 criminal commodity in the world is children.  #2 is opium to make heroine and pain pills.  70,000,000 abortions.  I guess if all you have is this world, then why not harvest hearts and livers of healthy children who have no parents.  Born in a lab and then used so others can live longer?  I dont think 90% of the world would support such bullshit.  This house of cards where children are the foundation is stopping now and is getting bleached as I speak form our Military.  Just wait Husker.  Love you


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The cop who was fired didn't do anything wrong?


None of the cops did anything wrong.  They served a warrant, announced themselves as heard by multiple witnesses and only fired when fired upon.  Case closed.

Cops are only fired, and payments are only paid, to appease the idiot masses that somehow believe criminal activity was wronged and will burn and loot more.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes but when one person once said something it means they all believe it . . . kinda like those that make excuses for storming the Capitol building.


Who made excuses for it?  Justifying it and explaining why it happened are not the same.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Correction -- three of the cops involved in that raid have been fired, as well as the Chief of Police for the way he handled the investigation of the affair.


Fired to appease the violent morons.  The same morons that burn down a Wendy’s when a drunk driver punches and shoots at a cop with a taser.  The same morons that burn down businesses of people that have nothing to do with an incident.  The same morons that put on a Trump hat, at the Capitol, but have already been identified as a BLM radical.  

It’s cheaper to keep her.


----------



## espola (Jan 16, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> None of the cops did anything wrong.  They served a warrant, announced themselves as heard by multiple witnesses and only fired when fired upon.  Case closed.
> 
> Cops are only fired, and payments are only paid, to appease the idiot masses that somehow believe criminal activity was wronged and will burn and loot more.


Actually, the case is still open, but it appears your mind is closed.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Actually, the case is still open, but it appears your mind is closed.


What should it be open to?  If your son was a cop on that warrant, what would you tell him to do differently?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 16, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> What should it be open to?  If your son was a cop on that warrant, what would you tell him to do differently?


Always reaching for the emotional appeal, typical.


----------



## espola (Jan 16, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> What should it be open to?  If your son was a cop on that warrant, what would you tell him to do differently?


Wait and catch her as she came out on her way to work.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 16, 2021)

One thing I've seen here, and elsewhere, that I'm still wrestling with, is how people voted for Trump's policies and not Trump himself.  I'm curious how those folks feel now?  Does anyone feel differently about that now?  Does the character of the president matter?  I only thought of this after seeing Biden speak over the last few days and how much different it feels to me.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Always reaching for the emotional appeal, typical.


That’s doesn’t answer my question.  It actually makes sense, though, because I wasn’t asking you.  Dipshit.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Wait and catch her as she came out on her way to work.


Too bad they can’t read minds and know the moron was going to shoot at them.  Maybe you should be a cop since you knew her work schedule and everyone else’s they were serving at the same time.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> One thing I've seen here, and elsewhere, that I'm still wrestling with, is how people voted for Trump's policies and not Trump himself.  I'm curious how those folks feel now?  Does anyone feel differently about that now?  Does the character of the president matter?  I only thought of this after seeing Biden speak over the last few days and how much different it feels to me.


Biden doesn’t have any character.  After watching the bullshit he said over the yearr, how he extorted Ukraine and coddled his trash kid, the man is no better than Trump.  Even liberal Americans weren’t supporting him until the DNC paid off the other candidates.  All great grandpa does now is read cue cards and he’s not even good at it anymore.


----------



## espola (Jan 16, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Too bad they can’t read minds and know the moron was going to shoot at them.  Maybe you should be a cop since you knew her work schedule and everyone else’s they were serving at the same time.


The cops knew where she lived and where she worked.


----------



## espola (Jan 16, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Biden doesn’t have any character.  After watching the bullshit he said over the yearr, how he extorted Ukraine and coddled his trash kid, the man is no better than Trump.  Even liberal Americans weren’t supporting him until the DNC paid off the other candidates.  All great grandpa does now is read cue cards and he’s not even good at it anymore.


You're going to have a busy four years.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The cops knew where she lived and where she worked.


Of course they knew.  She knowingly used her address to help her boyfriend deal drugs.  Oops!  Drug dealing and shooting at cops can be dangerous.  

Case closed.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 16, 2021)

espola said:


> You're going to have a busy four years.


I’ll definitely contribute more than the 50-year long drain on the American taxpayers.


----------



## crush (Jan 17, 2021)

Game on!!!  Peace to all of you.  Time to let the pros take it from here.  Never, and I mean never, mess with the children of God!!!!





__





						404 | UGETube
					

UGETube - A Video Sharing Website: Broadcast Freedom!




					ugetube.com


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

This opinion piece has been making the rounds. And as someone living in the Lennox Hill area of Manhattan I will vouch that the author is on point. Progressive leadership of this city is failing... and I'd be interested in hear someone ask Biden his thoughts on what how we turn things around? 









						I used to love New York City, but feckless leaders have forced me to leave
					

‘I used to love my city, but feckless leaders who’ve failed it forced me to leave.’




					nypost.com


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Biden doesn’t have any character.  After watching the bullshit he said over the yearr, how he extorted Ukraine and coddled his trash kid, the man is no better than Trump.  Even liberal Americans weren’t supporting him until the DNC paid off the other candidates.  All great grandpa does now is read cue cards and he’s not even good at it anymore.


Okay I'll admit I haven't really followed the Biden kid story... but what the heck. Let's take a deep dive. Lay your strongest evidence on the table...
And yes, KGB style forced confessions and articles from RT news will be dismissed as bullshite.


----------



## espola (Jan 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Okay I'll admit I haven't really followed the Biden kid story... but what the heck. Let's take a deep dive. Lay your strongest evidence on the table...
> And yes, KGB style forced confessions and articles from RT news will be dismissed as bullshite.


What about stuff from Rudy?


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> One thing I've seen here, and elsewhere, that I'm still wrestling with, is how people voted for Trump's policies and not Trump himself.  I'm curious how those folks feel now?  Does anyone feel differently about that now?  Does the character of the president matter?  I only thought of this after seeing Biden speak over the last few days and how much different it feels to me.


"It's the economy stupid." 

At least my read is people are saw what happened in Portland, San Fran, NYC, Seattle this summer. If the choice is that or Trump... you can't be surprised that almost half the people went with Trump?


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

espola said:


> What about stuff from Rudy?


Oy.  Rudy...

Despite utter disdain for what he's allowed himself to become, I'll accept that part of that roll is a messenger boy. So yes, I'd be willing to a least listen...

But the $20,000 a day fee he's been charging Trump for legal services would of course is very hard to ignore if we're talking about taking his word for it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 17, 2021)

espola said:


> What about stuff from Rudy?


The hair dye?


----------



## espola (Jan 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Oy.  Rudy...
> 
> Despite utter disdain for what he's allowed himself to become, I'll accept that part of that roll is a messenger boy. So yes, I'd be willing to a least listen...
> 
> But the $20,000 a day fee he's been charging Trump for legal services would of course is very hard to ignore if we're talking about taking his word for it.


He has announced that his recommended defense for t's impeachment is that all the claims of election fraud are true.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

espola said:


> He has announced that his recommended defense for t's impeachment is that all the claims of election fraud are true.


Well... in fairness I heard Trump was refusing to pay Rudy for services rendered after watching Rudy offer that defense to national News.  But we can bark up that tree some other day.

Today let's talk about the new President. Mr Shurson sounded like he knew some pretty damning evidence about his son? I'd like to hear it.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> "It's the economy stupid."
> 
> At least my read is people are saw what happened in Portland, San Fran, NYC, Seattle this summer. If the choice is that or Trump... you can't be surprised that almost half the people went with Trump?


So what they saw reported (they didn't actually see themselves) from sources they trust was enough to ignore the character of the president?  I guess I'm asking more generically does the character of the president matter?


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> So what they saw reported (they didn't actually see themselves) from sources they trust was enough to ignore the character of the president?  I guess I'm asking more generically does the character of the president matter?


I'm sure someday history will build statues of you for being the kind of guy whose brave enough to decide who should run the country based on guilt trips. As for myself, I'm just trying to make ends meet during a worldwide pandemic. 

Perhaps the better question is what is it about democrats that they can't crush a hack like Trump?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jan 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I'm sure someday history will build statues of you for being the kind of guy whose brave enough to decide who should run the country based on guilt trips. As for myself, I'm just trying to make ends meet during a worldwide pandemic.
> 
> Perhaps the better question is what is it about democrats that they can't crush a hack like Trump?


I'm genuinely interested.  Do you think my question is trying to lay down a guilt trip?  Wasn't my intention.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 17, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm genuinely interested.  Do you think my question is trying to lay down a guilt trip?  Wasn't my intention.


Am I allowed to say if you're having to ask why people voted for Trump, then likely you won't understand no matter what I (or even an real Trump voter) might say.

Or to go back to my earlier post; I don't like Trump. But if the alternative is 'ethical' wokeness like we've been watching in San Fran, Seattle and Portland...

(admittedly post coupe I would vote anybody but Trump, including for a progressive)


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Okay I'll admit I haven't really followed the Biden kid story... but what the heck. Let's take a deep dive. Lay your strongest evidence on the table...
> And yes, KGB style forced confessions and articles from RT news will be dismissed as bullshite.


Have you seen the video of Biden, leaning back all high and mighty in his chair, bragging that he’d withhold $1 billon of aid to Ukraine if they didn’t fire the prosecutor investigating Hunter?  How he was getting on a plane in xyz hours and that’s how much time they had?  How HE was the man with the swinging dick and not Obama?  It’s all over the web.  It’s all over this site.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... in fairness I heard Trump was refusing to pay Rudy for services rendered after watching Rudy offer that defense to national News.  But we can bark up that tree some other day.
> 
> Today let's talk about the new President. Mr Shurson sounded like he knew some pretty damning evidence about his son? I'd like to hear it.


Look at Hunter’s resume.  Look at Hunter’s drug history.  Look at what Burisma does.  You’re the head of HR and acquiring new talent.

Explain to me why Hunter Biden is qualified to be a board member and receive between $30k-$50k per month.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Explain to me why Hunter Biden is qualified to be a board member and receive between $30k-$50k per month.


Explain why the wife of the mayor of Moscow wired Hunter and his firm 3.5 million bucks?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Explain why the wife of the mayor of Moscow wired Hunter and his firm 3.5 million bucks?


It’s no fun if you just push the libs into a fire pit.  The trail of clues is half the fun!


----------



## tenacious (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Have you seen the video of Biden, leaning back all high and mighty in his chair, bragging that he’d withhold $1 billon of aid to Ukraine if they didn’t fire the prosecutor investigating Hunter?  How he was getting on a plane in xyz hours and that’s how much time they had?  How HE was the man with the swinging dick and not Obama?  It’s all over the web.  It’s all over this site.


Leaning back high and mighty.... lol
No I haven't seen this video, and I'm somehow imagining it's not going to say what you think it does.  But go ahead and share a link.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Look at Hunter’s resume.  Look at Hunter’s drug history.  Look at what Burisma does.  You’re the head of HR and acquiring new talent.
> 
> Explain to me why Hunter Biden is qualified to be a board member and receive between $30k-$50k per month.



Ignoring that nobody voted for Hunter... let me just make the point that a lot of powerful people can have shitty children too is news to nobody whose been alive over the last 5000 years of human history. 

You had made it sound like you have a smoking gun? Unless you're holding something back I'm going to have to say your evidence in underwhelming. I mean Biden's got a jerk kid so he will be a bad president? That's what you got? Really?  Talk about silly.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ignoring that nobody voted for Hunter... let me just make the point that a lot of powerful people can have shitty children too is news to nobody whose been alive over the last 5000 years of human history.
> 
> You had made it sound like you have a smoking gun? Unless you're holding something back I'm going to have to say your evidence in underwhelming. I mean Biden's got a jerk kid so he will be a bad president? That's what you got? Really?  Talk about silly.


biden both through the partner and the laptop emails has been personally connected to the shenanigans of influence peddling. The only reason it hasn’t come down hard on him is because the evidence is for activities after he left office, largely with affiliates of the Chinese communist party.  

then there’s also the question of how Biden is able to live his lifestyle on first a senators and then vps salary.

but the real reason there isn’t more shock and disgust in Washington is they all do it...it’s just hunter was a little more brazen, a little more stupid than others


----------



## tenacious (Jan 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> biden both through the partner and the laptop emails has been personally connected to the shenanigans of influence peddling. The only reason it hasn’t come down hard on him is because the evidence is for activities after he left office, largely with affiliates of the Chinese communist party.
> 
> then there’s also the question of how Biden is able to live his lifestyle on first a senators and then vps salary.
> 
> but the real reason there isn’t more shock and disgust in Washington is they all do it...it’s just hunter was a little more brazen, a little more stupid than others


I would simply point out that Biden didn't even run against Hillary. I doubt he had planned on running now. However between Trump and the litmus tests that need to be passed in order to run as president in a national democratic primary... he was one of the few 'sane' people who could step in when the crazies were about to breech the wall. And he did. At almost 80, he's headed to DC to clean up Trumps mess. To me, I see that as a good thing and I'm okay that his resume isn't tailor made for a White House run.

So yes, I'm sure once he thought his political career was over he cashed in as a lobbyist. Hate to see it, but we all know K-street is the heaven politicans go to after their careers die. He wanted to leave some money for his grand kids. Probably stupid, but also so Joe Biden.


----------



## espola (Jan 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> biden both through the partner and the laptop emails has been personally connected to the shenanigans of influence peddling. The only reason it hasn’t come down hard on him is because the evidence is for activities after he left office, largely with affiliates of the Chinese communist party.
> 
> then there’s also the question of how Biden is able to live his lifestyle on first a senators and then vps salary.
> 
> but the real reason there isn’t more shock and disgust in Washington is they all do it...it’s just hunter was a little more brazen, a little more stupid than others


Laptop emails -- Is that the laptop in the hands of the DOJ?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> but the real reason there isn’t more shock and disgust in Washington is they all do it...it’s just hunter was a little more brazen, a little more stupid than others


This book came out a few years ago. But it covers in detail how a lot of the corruption goes on nowadays. Covers both Rs and Ds.

If we had an honest press, they would report on what these various people do and go after them. But they don't and so the practice continues.

Secret Empires: How Our Politicians Hide Corruption and Enrich Their Families and Friends






						Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends eBook : Schweizer, Peter: Kindle Store
					

Amazon.com: Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends eBook : Schweizer, Peter: Kindle Store



					www.amazon.com


----------



## espola (Jan 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I would simply point out that Biden didn't even run against Hillary. I doubt he had planned on running now. However between Trump and the litmus tests that need to be passed in order to run as president in a national democratic primary... he was one of the few 'sane' people who could step in when the crazies were about to breech the wall. And he did. At almost 80, he's headed to DC to clean up Trumps mess. To me, I see that as a good bout thing and I'm okay that his resume isn't tailor made for a White House run.
> 
> So yes, I'm sure once he thought his political career was over he cashed in as a lobbyist. Hate to see it, but we all know K-street is the heaven politicans go to after their careers die. He wanted to leave some money for his grand kids. Probably stupid, but also so Joe Biden.


Biden's salary as Senator was about $170,000, and as VP about $230,000.  And his wife has a good job.  And he rode public transit to and from work.  He also wrote a couple of best-selling books (income not known).


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ignoring that nobody voted for Hunter... let me just make the point that a lot of powerful people can have shitty children too is news to nobody whose been alive over the last 5000 years of human history.
> 
> You had made it sound like you have a smoking gun? Unless you're holding something back I'm going to have to say your evidence in underwhelming. I mean Biden's got a jerk kid so he will be a bad president? That's what you got? Really?


Biden is on video extorting Ukraine loudly and clearly.  Aka smoking gun.  It’s been posted here numerous times.  How many times do you need to see it?  Unless you’re pretending to be ignorant, I’m going to have to say your denial is underwhelming.

Nobody voted for Hunter and nobody voted for Biden.  They didn’t vote for Biden the other times he ran, either.  Just like nobody voted for Kamala.  They voted against Trump because he doesn’t give the sheep warm and fuzzies.  75,000,000 other people live in reality.  

So yes, Biden won’t be a good President because we’ve already seen what 50-years of his career can’t accomplish.


----------



## espola (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Biden is on video extorting Ukraine loudly and clearly.  Aka smoking gun.  It’s been posted here numerous times.  How many times do you need to see it?  Unless you’re pretending to be ignorant, I’m going to have to say your denial is underwhelming.
> 
> Nobody voted for Hunter and nobody voted for Biden.  They didn’t vote for Biden the other times he ran, either.  Just like nobody voted for Kamala.  They voted against Trump because he doesn’t give the sheep warm and fuzzies.  75,000,000 other people live in reality.
> 
> So yes, Biden won’t be a good President because we’ve already seen what 50-years of his career can’t accomplish.


Coocoo.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


Yeah, I know your sorry ass has seen the video.  You libtards live in complete hypocrisy.


----------



## espola (Jan 18, 2021)

“Infamy is just as good as fame. Either way I end up more known. XOXO.” -- University of Kentucky student Gracyn Courtright responding to critics of her posting videos of herself in the mob at the Capitol.









						'Infamy is just as good as fame': UK student among crowd that mobbed Capitol building
					

Jan. 17, 2020 update: A federal affidavit supporting criminal charges against Courtright was filed in D.C. court on Jan. 16, 2020, showing new evidence of Courtright in the Capitol and




					www.kykernel.com


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

Borrowed this from Sheriff Joe.  Another hypocritical shit stain on the libtards.

“The rioting is a movement and it’s not going to stop; nor should it.”


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299013980711784448


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

So vaccine dispensaries are closed today for the holiday.  Is Covid taking the day off from killing folks?  That’s pretty woke of the Chinese virus.

Emperor Of The Ladyboys must be really upset.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Have you seen the video of Biden, leaning back all high and mighty in his chair, bragging that he’d withhold $1 billon of aid to Ukraine if they didn’t fire the prosecutor investigating Hunter?  How he was getting on a plane in xyz hours and that’s how much time they had?  How HE was the man with the swinging dick and not Obama?  It’s all over the web.  It’s all over this site.


You do realize the chronological sequence in your story is all wrong, right?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You do realize the chronological sequence in your story is all wrong, right?


No, it isn’t.  You’ve seen the Biden extortion video, too.  This twitwit video was to remind you that the skank was all for rioting in Kenosha.

You’re hypocrites.  Rioting only offends you when it doesn’t suit your cause.


----------



## crush (Jan 18, 2021)

Help is on the way NY!!!  This poor soul played the game wrong.  I wonder why he looks around to see who is coming?  He looks nervous?  He does not look like a man with confidence, does he?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 18, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> No, it isn’t.  You’ve seen the Biden extortion video, too.  This twitwit video was to remind you that the skank was all for rioting in Kenosha.
> 
> You’re hypocrites.  Rioting only offends you when it doesn’t suit your cause.


You certainly are trying all you can to excuse the attempted coup.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You certainly are trying all you can to excuse the attempted coup.


Who excused it?  Only liberals excused it until the behavior pissed on the party of their dumbass sheep herder.  How come you’ve been okay with burning, looting and killing until now?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 18, 2021)

Nice to see half the women’s team standing.  The other half think it’s okay to be a criminal and assault police officers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 19, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Who excused it?  Only liberals excused it until the behavior pissed on the party of their dumbass sheep herder.  How come you’ve been okay with burning, looting and killing until now?


Ok? Show me where I said that?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 19, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Nice to see half the women’s team standing.  The other half think it’s okay to be a criminal and assault police officers.


The other half are trumpists? Maybe ya all can start carrying fire extinguishers as reminders to police you mean business.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 19, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ok? Show me where I said that?


You and your liberal buddies spent the last year turning your other cheek.  Portland, Seattle, Kenosha, Minnesota.

Please.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 19, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The other half are trumpists? Maybe ya all can start carrying fire extinguishers as reminders to police you mean business.


Only liberals approve of being violent towards police and defunding them.  Only liberals encourage illegal aliens to cross our borders and want border patrol and ICE abolished.  Only liberals want incarcerated criminals out on the street.  Only liberals want to spend more hard earned tax dollars to coddle street bums that don’t want to change.  Only liberals will kneel because they aren’t versed on the actual, statistical truths.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 19, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> You and your liberal buddies spent the last year turning your other cheek.  Portland, Seattle, Kenosha, Minnesota.
> 
> Please.


So nothing?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 19, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Only liberals approve of being violent towards police and defunding them.  Only liberals encourage illegal aliens to cross our borders and want border patrol and ICE abolished.  Only liberals want incarcerated criminals out on the street.  Only liberals want to spend more hard earned tax dollars to coddle street bums that don’t want to change.  Only liberals will kneel because they aren’t versed on the actual, statistical truths.


Tell that to the dead DC officers family and the other cops that were beaten by magas.


----------



## crush (Jan 20, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 20, 2021)

crush said:


> View attachment 9964


Are you done crying yet?


----------



## crush (Jan 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Are you done crying yet?


Not at all.  I'm rejoicing in the Lord this morning.  Singing songs, praying for peace and sharing with new freinds about what is really going on, MOO!!!!  Like I said forever, I was born for this moment in time where very soon, you won;t need to care about time or death.  Now ain't that cool?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)

The drip never takes a back seat: Joe Exotic has a limo parked outside his prison, along with hair, makeup, and wardrobe people on standby, in case Trump pardons him
					

Swag always dialed to 10, no excuses.




					notthebee.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)




----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)

Get ready for the next 4 yrs....


----------



## whatithink (Jan 20, 2021)

crush said:


> View attachment 9964


Patriots already won on 11/3, again on 1/6 and it will be a rout today.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 20, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 9965


You left out trumps war on America.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 20, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Get ready for the next 4 yrs....
> 
> View attachment 9966


And lots of Kleenex for crybabies like you.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And lots of Kleenex for crybabies like you.


The ones who have been sniveling are guys like you. Tighten your bra straps yet?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)

I guess now that he is in, they can report on him.

"For higher-profile remarks, he’d obsessively rehearse portions until he committed them to memory. And at times through the various iterations of outlining remarks, Biden could grow downright ornery.

“*I would never say this,*” Biden once snapped at an aide, aghast over the prepared remarks he was reviewing, according to a person in the room during a speech prep session last year. “*Where did you get this from*?’”

*The aide explained that Biden had just said it in a public speech a couple of weeks earlier."









						Writing a speech for Biden can be hell. And that was before the inaugural.
					

There is a heightened urgency to Biden's inaugural speech, as he confronts multiple crises and seeks to bridge a deep political divide.




					www.politico.com
				



*


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 20, 2021)

Congrats to JB on his inauguration and KH on the first Black Woman VP. We are all blessed under one God, Democrat, Republican, or Independent.

I will say that it will be interesting to watch how the Media reports everything with no more Trump. Let’s all hope we move past the division the past four years have caused. It will make the world a better place.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 20, 2021)

Tr


MARsSPEED said:


> Congrats to JB on his inauguration and KH on the first Black Woman VP. We are all blessed under one God, Democrat, Republican, or Independent.
> 
> I will say that it will be interesting to watch how the Media reports everything with no more Trump. Let’s all hope we move past the division the past four years have caused. It will make the world a better place.


Trump? The NYC minor league real estate wannabe? The Apprentice guy? What about him? Did he get another divorce? Another bankruptcy?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

I liked Biden's speech.  It was great.  I like the unity message.

Have not seen though a lot of unity though, starting with the executive orders.

Have also not seen a lot of unity around the country since several antifa protests are underway and a few are already violent despite Trump being gone.

I like that for the first 12 years we don't have a cult of personality around the President.  But it makes the media look even more like sycophants given how they are falling over him (and how different the coverage is from 4 years ago).

Biden isn't looking too good.

Had no problem with the gathering size.  Would love it if we did it this way in the future.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Have also not seen a lot of unity around the country since several antifa protests are underway and a few are already violent despite Trump being gone.


Where?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> Where?


Portland, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Portland, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta.


In Portland they are currently attacking Democratic Party headquarters and smashing it up, carrying signs saying no unity, yes revenge, and f--- Biden


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> In Portland they are currently attacking Democratic Party headquarters and smashing it up, carrying signs saying no unity, yes revenge, and f--- Biden


Who told you about this?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> Who told you about this?


The twitterverse.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The twitterverse.


Here's one.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352044041131577345


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Here's one.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352044041131577345


Who told you about Jorge Ventura Media?


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The twitterverse.


Did you know the word "gullible" does not appear in any online dictionary?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> Did you know the word "gullible" does not appear in any online dictionary?


You saying they are lying?  What part of that video is untrue?  Proof?


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Here's one.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352044041131577345


They look like members of Sprockets featuring Mike Myers. Idiots.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> They look like members of Sprockets featuring Mike Myers. Idiots.


They always dress that way and carry their skateboards to use as weapons.  If you look at their mug shots, these were not the popular, smart, or athletic kids in high school.  From a psychological point of view, most probably do it to feel powerful and important and belong to something, when in high school they were none of those things.  It also explains why they don't really mid turning against an establishment D....it's not about him, it's about them.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You saying they are lying?  What part of that video is untrue?  Proof?


I'm waiting for the last shoe to drop.  You seem to be willing to accept the judgment of a little-known journalist.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> I'm waiting for the last shoe to drop.  You seem to be willing to accept the judgment of a little-known journalist.


I tend to trust my eyes....it's not the only video floating out there of the 4 cities and you've forwarded diddly to dispute it.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I tend to trust my eyes....it's not the only video floating out there of the 4 cities and you've forwarded diddly to dispute it.


You brought it up and you have done diddly to show anything about 3 of the cities.

I'll concede Portland until we know more, but you failed to answer the question of how you became aware of Jorge Ventura Media.

Maybe it's just me, but I hold back final judgment on a matter if all I have for evidence is provided by unknown sources.  It's a conservative thing to do.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> You brought it up and you have done diddly to show anything about 3 of the cities.
> 
> I'll concede Portland until we know more, but you failed to answer the question of how you became aware of Jorge Ventura Media.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I hold back final judgment on a matter if all I have for evidence is provided by unknown sources.  It's a conservative thing to do.


I'm not going to mine my twitter feed for you.

I've followed several people since the March riots, starting with Ngo and flowing out from there.  Sparling and Hollingsworth are pretty good too.  As I said before, I have a wide range of people in my feed, from the Guardian newspaper of the left to Ben Shapiro on the right.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm not going to mine my twitter feed for you.
> 
> I've followed several people since the March riots, starting with Ngo and flowing out from there.  Sparling and Hollingsworth are pretty good too.  As I said before, I have a wide range of people in my feed, from the Guardian newspaper of the left to Ben Shapiro on the right.


You brought it up.  Don't you want to safeguard your credibility?


----------



## watfly (Jan 20, 2021)

Is it wrong that I watched the Man City vs Aston Villa game instead of the inauguration? (actually had it on in the background while I worked).  I meant no disrespect to Biden, I support our President, but figured I could catch a couple versions on cable news.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm not going to mine my twitter feed for you.
> 
> I've followed several people since the March riots, starting with Ngo and flowing out from there.  Sparling and Hollingsworth are pretty good too.  As I said before, I have a wide range of people in my feed, from the Guardian newspaper of the left to Ben Shapiro on the right.


Fox News has Andy Ngo's video in Portland now.

One down, three to go.


----------



## espola (Jan 20, 2021)

watfly said:


> Is it wrong that I watched the Man City vs Aston Villa game instead of the inauguration? (actually had it on in the background while I worked).  I meant no disrespect to Biden, I support our President, but figured I could catch a couple versions on cable news.


There was little excitement in DC.  The action was all in Portland (and perhaps other cities).


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 20, 2021)

espola said:


> You brought it up.  Don't you want to safeguard your credibility?


With you?  Not really.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So nothing?


So nothing what?  I made a statement and it’s accurate.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tell that to the dead DC officers family and the other cops that were beaten by magas.


Tell that to David Dorn and all th other cops injured in BLM riots over the last 12 months.  You don’t even know the guy’s name or how he died.  Clown.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You left out trumps war on America.


Yeah... great economy, record low unemployment and safer borders.  So awful for the snowflakes!


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 20, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I liked Biden's speech.  It was great.  I like the unity message.
> 
> Have not seen though a lot of unity though, starting with the executive orders.
> 
> ...


C’mon, Grace, nothing says “unity” like ripping up the state of the union speech on national television.  Libs are the party of love and acceptance.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jan 20, 2021)

watfly said:


> Is it wrong that I watched the Man City vs Aston Villa game instead of the inauguration? (actually had it on in the background while I worked).  I meant no disrespect to Biden, I support our President, but figured I could catch a couple versions on cable news.


I’d rather watch that game than J-Lo. But, would have loved to see Garth Brooks giving the ex-presidents big hugs. Had to work.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 20, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> They always dress that way and carry their skateboards to use as weapons.  If you look at their mug shots, these were not the popular, smart, or athletic kids in high school.  From a psychological point of view, most probably do it to feel powerful and important and belong to something, when in high school they were none of those things.  It also explains why they don't really mid turning against an establishment D....it's not about him, it's about them.


Talk about irony.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 21, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’d rather watch that game than J-Lo. But, would have loved to see Garth Brooks giving the ex-presidents big hugs. Had to work.


Relative from Mississippi says she just burned all her Garth Brooks stuff. Lol!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 21, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Tell that to David Dorn and all th other cops injured in BLM riots over the last 12 months.  You don’t even know the guy’s name or how he died.  Clown.


Yes, yes, calm down now pepe’.


----------



## crush (Jan 21, 2021)

Not a peep from the new administration about human trafficking, abortion harvesting, children being raped, tortured and kidnapped and then sold. Nothing!!!  Grace liked the speech?  Gracie, nothing about the protection of kids?  I saw a funeral personally.  No hope, no light.  Killers of kids are going to be toast very soon.  If none of you care about children rights and protection, well then, you wont like it here in the future.


----------



## crush (Jan 21, 2021)

For Happy and Watfly owners.  I thought of you guys today.  My pal just got the boot after 21 years of service.  He and the CEO were opposite and the CEO told him to leave.  It goes both ways now.  My son gets an A every time because writes all his papers with words of fluff to make professor happy.  I told my son I would have got an F because I will never sell out.  He said he has to get an A.  To each his own I told him and I said your playing the game well.  I just play different


----------



## happy9 (Jan 21, 2021)

espola said:


> Did you know the word "gullible" does not appear in any online dictionary?


So, it didn't happen or it doesn't matter that it happened/is happening?  I think at the end of the day, the NW "insurrections" will be considered expected, accepted, and the norm for that part of the country.  Once unemployment benefits run out, they'll go back to work and only come out to play when the salmon, owls, and ferns need saving or if the WTO or another pig capitalist organization decides to have a conference in that neck of the woods.  

Beyond that, they'll fade away into oblivion.  Federal law enforcement can rotate  resources in from time to time to get some riot control training or expend expiring tear gas canisters and pepper bullets.  Can't have tax payer dollars spent on storing expired stuff....


----------



## tjinaz (Jan 21, 2021)

happy9 said:


> So, it didn't happen or it doesn't matter that it happened/is happening?  I think at the end of the day, the NW "insurrections" will be considered expected, accepted, and the norm for that part of the country.  Once unemployment benefits run out, they'll go back to work and only come out to play when the salmon, owls, and ferns need saving or if the WTO or another pig capitalist organization decides to have a conference in that neck of the woods.
> 
> Beyond that, they'll fade away into oblivion.  Federal law enforcement can rotate  resources in from time to time to get some riot control training or expend expiring tear gas canisters and pepper bullets.  Can't have tax payer dollars spent on storing expired stuff....


So does this mean there will be no feigned outrage if there are violent protests in other areas where it is not commonplace?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

happy9 said:


> So, it didn't happen or it doesn't matter that it happened/is happening?  I think at the end of the day, the NW "insurrections" will be considered expected, accepted, and the norm for that part of the country.  Once unemployment benefits run out, they'll go back to work and only come out to play when the salmon, owls, and ferns need saving or if the WTO or another pig capitalist organization decides to have a conference in that neck of the woods.
> 
> Beyond that, they'll fade away into oblivion.  Federal law enforcement can rotate  resources in from time to time to get some riot control training or expend expiring tear gas canisters and pepper bullets.  Can't have tax payer dollars spent on storing expired stuff....


It's wishful thinking to think it's going away.  This is what it looks like with the left at the height of its victory and the right at the height of been cowed.  I agree it will quiet down a bit now that Biden is safely installed in office, but the surface of this is very fragile and we don't know where the next spark is coming from.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 21, 2021)

tjinaz said:


> So does this mean there will be no feigned outrage if there are violent protests in other areas where it is not commonplace?


My prediction is there will not be any violent protests in other areas.  And if there are, they will be carefully depicted and downplayed.  No one cares about ANTIFA.  They are a fringe group that stands for fringe issues.  No one outside of the NW cares about salmon and owls, ferns, or whether the original starbucks has it's windows broken.

The migrant caravan would have been a Biden policy testing ground but seems Covid is helping the new admin out.









						Large migrant caravan dissolves in Guatemala
					

Guatemala’s government had made clear it would stop the caravan for immigration and health reasons.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's wishful thinking to think it's going away.  This is what it looks like with the left at the height of its victory and the right at the height of been cowed.  I agree it will quiet down a bit now that Biden is safely installed in office, but the surface of this is very fragile and we don't know where the next spark is coming from.


We will see what the future holds, specifically for the NW.  ANTIFA is a seasonal or situational movement with very little national spotlight.  Historically, seattle and portland PD would tolerate them for a short while then come down heavy handed.  Once the national spot light on law enforcment goes away, I'm sure they'll revert to their old ways of responding to the latte crew.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

happy9 said:


> We will see what the future holds, specifically for the NW.  ANTIFA is a seasonal or situational movement with very little national spotlight.  Historically, seattle and portland PD would tolerate them for a short while then come down heavy handed.  Once the national spot light on law enforcment goes away, I'm sure they'll revert to their old ways of responding to the latte crew.


I agree with all that.  The issue is sooner or later another spark is going to happen and people on both the far sides are still p----ed.  Don't know what it will be: Biden going 25, shooting Republican congressmen, another police incident with an African American (justified or unjustified).  I worry less about Antifa and the far rightist that orchestrated the Capitol take over....it's the fellow travelers they latch onto which make the situation dangerous when outraged.  And there's still a lot of outraged out there which didn't magically go away with Biden taking the oath of office.


----------



## tjinaz (Jan 21, 2021)

happy9 said:


> My prediction is there will not be any violent protests in other areas.  And if there are, they will be carefully depicted and downplayed.  No one cares about ANTIFA.  They are a fringe group that stands for fringe issues.  No one outside of the NW cares about salmon and owls, ferns, or whether the original starbucks has it's windows broken.
> 
> The migrant caravan would have been a Biden policy testing ground but seems Covid is helping the new admin out.
> 
> ...


Not sure it was really COVID that stopped them, more like batons and tear gas. 

 I am pretty sure there will be more protests,  NYC just had a riot on MLK day.
NYC MLK Riot

  Some folks have developed a taste for it and are now thinking Biden may be more lenient and sympathetic towards them and less so to the police facing them.


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's wishful thinking to think it's going away.  This is what it looks like with the left at the height of its victory and the right at the height of been cowed.  I agree it will quiet down a bit now that Biden is safely installed in office, but the surface of this is very fragile and we don't know where the next spark is coming from.


Seattle?  Denver?  Atlanta?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

espola said:


> Seattle?  Denver?  Atlanta?


Yup.  Ngo has most of them on his twitter feed now.  Go look.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yup.  Ngo has most of them on his twitter feed now.  Go look.



He just posted Seattle.  Here it is.  Atlanta and Denver took place earlier in the day....go look.  Atlanta and Denver were much smaller than either Seattle/Portland.  There was some activity in NYC too but also small.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352375778512674824


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yup.  Ngo has most of them on his twitter feed now.  Go look.


Amazin!  You knew about it before he did!


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2021)

Ngo has this in his file  --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352056511342768130


----------



## happy9 (Jan 21, 2021)

tjinaz said:


> Not sure it was really COVID that stopped them, more like batons and tear gas.
> 
> I am pretty sure there will be more protests,  NYC just had a riot on MLK day.
> NYC MLK Riot
> ...


The government of Guatemala used COVID and public health as the reasoning for the escalation of force against the caravan. It's a much easier sell.  Last time they barely put up a fight.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

espola said:


> Amazin!  You knew about it before he did!


Nah I just don't care enough to go back and read through my twitter feed and I don't flag things in anticipation of debates with you.  If someone else had asked me I might go back, but for you nah.  I, for example, would probably do it for dad.  This was just convenient.


----------



## watfly (Jan 21, 2021)

crush said:


> For Happy and Watfly owners.  I thought of you guys today.  My pal just got the boot after 21 years of service.  He and the CEO were opposite and the CEO told him to leave.  It goes both ways now.  My son gets an A every time because writes all his papers with words of fluff to make professor happy.  I told my son I would have got an F because I will never sell out.  He said he has to get an A.  To each his own I told him and I said your playing the game well.  I just play different
> 
> View attachment 9982


No offense, but old joke and I'd couldn't care less what our employees politics are.  There is no place in the work place for politics.  Do we support or oppose legislation that is detrimental to our business?  Absolutely, we have a fiduciary duty to our stakeholders and employees.  We contributed a fair amount to defeat Prop 15 and it was worth every penny.

Now if someone complains about how much they pay in taxes and they happened to vote for Biden, I will keep my mouth shut but feel absolutely zero sympathy for them.


----------



## crush (Jan 21, 2021)

watfly said:


> No offense, but old joke and I'd couldn't care less what our employees politics are.  There is no place in the work place for politics.  Do we support or oppose legislation that is detrimental to our business?  Absolutely, we have a fiduciary duty to our stakeholders and employees.  We contributed a fair amount to defeat Prop 15 and it was worth every penny.
> 
> Now if someone complains about how much they pay in taxes and they happened to vote for Biden, I will keep my mouth shut but feel absolutely zero sympathy for them.


It was a joke and satire mixed with some truth


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

The purge continues....twitter after days of pressure from cons making some moves towards at least the semblance of equal treatment.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352399672594345985


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The purge continues....twitter after days of pressure from cons making some moves towards at least the semblance of equal treatment.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352399672594345985


*Polish Minister: Here's Why I Decided to Regulate Monopoly Social Media Tech in My Country*
*—Ace*
"This is a viewpoint almost entirely absent in the American political class. The Democrats won't regulate Big Tech because Big Tech is their jackbooted speech code enforcer and their propaganda arm, and the Republicans won't regulate Big Tech because they're fucking taking money from them.

Hail Poland.



> In Poland, we have watched with alarm as a consortium of ever more powerful, monopolistic Big Tech companies have done what was once unthinkable: de-platforming a sitting U.S. president. For us, this example--which has alarmed presidents and prime ministers across Europe and, indeed, the world--is merely the straw that broke the camel's back....
> For the citizens of Poland and other countries that value true democratic accountability, we have concluded that this situation can go on no longer. As media across the world have noted, Poland has proposed a law establishing a "Freedom of Speech Council" to guarantee that Polish citizens are not arbitrarily manipulated by Big Tech companies.
> ...
> Poland suffered under Soviet-imposed Communism for 45 years and endured decades of censorship. We are particularly sensitive to any attempts to curtail freedom of speech...



Say, do you remember when _Americans_ were particularly sensitive to attempts to curtain freedom of speech?

It was like ten years ago, before half the population decided to lobotomize and zombify itself staring at FaceBook walls and Twitter feeds all fucking day long, and then screaming that _*Trump*_, rather than their own social media addiction and consequent diminished-executive-function brains, is the reason they're so anxious and miserable every minute of their miserable, fearful lives.



> We do not seek the power to remove any content from social media; rather, we simply want to ensure that lawful content is _not_ removed. The problem of social media censorship is much more systemic than the mere instance, however monumental it may be, of the permanent de-platforming of a sitting U.S. president. Ordinary citizens are finding their content regulated by invisible agents behind computers far, far away.


*Good for Poland. Maybe we can ask them to send scholars here to teach us what America used to be like."*


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

And from the WH spokesperson.


*Jen Psaki on Why Biden Ignored His Own Rules About Mask-Wearing at the Lincoln Memorial: "We have bigger things to worry about."*
*—Ace*
Two big points:

1, Joe Biden just _signed a new rule making it a requirement to wear masks when visiting federal lands and monuments._ Which the Lincoln Memorial, of course, is.

So he didn't just violate general rules-- he violated the rule he had just signed into being.

2, I couldn't fit it in the headline, but Jen Psaki's full answer was, ""He was celebrating a historic day in our country... We have bigger things to worry about."

*The Ruling Class always has good reasons why it alone is immune from its own rules. From "she's the public face of this city, she can ignore her own orders and go to a hairdresser" to "he had more important things to do than obey his own law, like celebrate his own ego."*


Oh, he was _celebrating_ something, eh? Oh well, if you're _celebrating_ an important milestone or anniversary, the rules don't apply, right?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The purge continues....twitter after days of pressure from cons making some moves towards at least the semblance of equal treatment.


Maybe if they ban some prominent D politicians or prominent D (sorry non partisan) journalists then there will be an uproar about the silencing of free speech by unelected tech overlords.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Oh, he was _celebrating_ something, eh? Oh well, if you're _celebrating_ an important milestone or anniversary, the rules don't apply, right?


Celebrations are apparently o.k. now.   So we can go "celebrate" a once-in-a-life-time wedding, a kid's sweet 15, Christmas, my folks 30th wedding anniversary, my friends new job, my kids' book publication.  Hey, soccer games are celebrations too, right?  Celebrating the joys of futbol?  All good!

1 day in office and he's already being called on the carpet for the mask and vaccine stuff.  Trump's start wasn't any better, but not exactly a rip roaring start to the 100 days.


----------



## watfly (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The purge continues....twitter after days of pressure from cons making some moves towards at least the semblance of equal treatment.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352399672594345985


Apparently attacking the Democrat Party headquarters crossed the line for Twitter.

Honestly I prefer they didn't purge anyone.  Like I said before I'd rather have cockroaches exposed to light than hide in dark corners.  Either you believe in the 1st Amendment 100% or you don't.  I personally don't believe there is any middle ground.  The ACLU used to believe the same thing until it was taken over by the narrative pushers.

While Twitter is a private entity, it along with, Facebook have a near monopoly on online communication and has the power to influence a significant population in any direction they so choose.  I know im on common ground with the left  because they believe that Facebook posts by the Russians are what led to Trumps victory.

So let it all flow and let the individual decide what to believe.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 21, 2021)

watfly said:


> Apparently attacking the Democrat Party headquarters crossed the line for Twitter.
> 
> Honestly I prefer they didn't purge anyone.  Like I said before I'd rather have cockroaches exposed to light than hide in dark corners.  Either you believe in the 1st Amendment 100% or you don't.  I personally don't believe there is any middle ground.  The ACLU used to believe the same thing until it was taken over by the narrative pushers.
> 
> ...


Agree. Just like this place- exposed!


----------



## whatithink (Jan 21, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> *Polish Minister: Here's Why I Decided to Regulate Monopoly Social Media Tech in My Country*
> *—Ace*
> "This is a viewpoint almost entirely absent in the American political class. The Democrats won't regulate Big Tech because Big Tech is their jackbooted speech code enforcer and their propaganda arm, and the Republicans won't regulate Big Tech because they're fucking taking money from them.
> 
> ...


Are you going to ask Poland how to control the judiciary also? I assume you'd be good with the D's coming up with a new rule that causes a large number of the judiciary to have to "retire" so that they can then replace them - that would be following Poland's example too.

The same Polish government in a long running dispute with the EU over the rule of law.

Is "Hail Poland" meant to be ironic, given that their leaders would like a "Heil" when saluting them, given their inclinations?

Holding up the opinion of the Polish government is pretty risible given their actual inclinations.

And, fwiw, I don't agree with censorship etc. but Poland, FFS.


----------



## watfly (Jan 21, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> And from the WH spokesperson.
> 
> 
> *Jen Psaki on Why Biden Ignored His Own Rules About Mask-Wearing at the Lincoln Memorial: "We have bigger things to worry about."*
> ...





Grace T. said:


> Celebrations are apparently o.k. now.   So we can go "celebrate" a once-in-a-life-time wedding, a kid's sweet 15, Christmas, my folks 30th wedding anniversary, my friends new job, my kids' book publication.  Hey, soccer games are celebrations too, right?  Celebrating the joys of futbol?  All good!
> 
> 1 day in office and he's already being called on the carpet for the mask and vaccine stuff.  Trump's start wasn't any better, but not exactly a rip roaring start to the 100 days.


I don't think we should hang Biden on the cross of mask wearing, that's just garden variety hypocrisy.  Let's hang him on the cross of eliminating more jobs in the midst of a pandemic.  F'ing brilliant.  Right now I wish he would just help states that are struggling with the vaccine rollout.  Like implementing financial ramifications for failing to reach some aggressive benchmarks.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 21, 2021)

Awful.....also apparently an outbreak has taken place among the Guardsmen.









						‘We feel incredibly betrayed’: Thousands of Guardsmen forced to vacate Capitol
					

Guardsmen were later let back into facilities after an outcry from lawmakers.




					www.politico.com


----------



## watfly (Jan 21, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Awful.....also apparently an outbreak has taken place among the Guardsmen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there any person, group or agency that the left won't exploit and weaponize for their own political benefit.  The Guard now knows what Christine Blasey Ford must have felt like.


----------



## espola (Jan 21, 2021)

watfly said:


> Is there any person, group or agency that the left won't exploit and weaponize for their own political benefit.  The Guard now knows what Christine Blasey Ford must have felt like.


????


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

watfly said:


> Honestly I prefer they didn't purge anyone. Like I said before I'd rather have cockroaches exposed to light than hide in dark corners.


Bingo


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Are you going to ask Poland how to control the judiciary also? I assume you'd be good with the D's coming up with a new rule that causes a large number of the judiciary to have to "retire" so that they can then replace them - that would be following Poland's example too.
> 
> The same Polish government in a long running dispute with the EU over the rule of law.
> 
> ...


Actually I think the theme is that country realizes there is a problem with tech companies who effectively control the town square. They don't like it.

Today we have a party that is fine with the censorship we are seeing. 

So that is the point.

Amazing to see how many D leaders and talking heads in the news who have no problem with censorship


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 21, 2021)

watfly said:


> don't think we should hang Biden on the cross of mask wearing, that's just garden variety hypocrisy. Let's hang him on the cross of eliminating more jobs in the midst of a pandemic.


I think you call politicians on hypocrisy.

I agree more importantly you call them on policies that costs money/jobs.

I vote based on economic issues as my main issue. 

So I didn't like the reversal of the Keystone pipeline nor the banning of fracking on fed lands.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually I think the theme is that country realizes there is a problem with tech companies who effectively control the town square. They don't like it.
> 
> Today we have a party that is fine with the censorship we are seeing.
> 
> ...


The Polish leadership wants to control the town square, just like they want to control the judiciary. I'm sure they have wet dreams about how the Chinese can control everything. Using the current Polish leadership as somehow being bastions of freedom of speech gives your post zero credibility.

You don't need them to make the point.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 22, 2021)

watfly said:


> I don't think we should hang Biden on the cross of mask wearing, that's just garden variety hypocrisy.  *Let's hang him on the cross of eliminating more jobs in the midst of a pandemic*.  F'ing brilliant.  Right now I wish he would just help states that are struggling with the vaccine rollout.  Like implementing financial ramifications for failing to reach some aggressive benchmarks.


His strings are being pulled.  Big government rarely/barely understands impacts of emotional policies.  It's likely that shutting down the XL pipeline is going to INCREASE emissions - crude oil is still going to be delivered, just not through the pipeline.  And of course there is the instant loss of jobs, which is just silly given the current economic conditions.  There will likely be regulatory uncertainty for big investors.  That will suppress future projects, jobs, etc.

Vaccine deployment is  certainly an issue - plenty of blame to go around.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 22, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Awful.....also apparently an outbreak has taken place among the Guardsmen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is why politicians are such loathsome creatures.  Never pass up an opportunity to create drama where there really isn't drama.

Yes, it's unfortunate that these troops had to take their break in a parking garage - not the end of the world though.  Demonstrates poor planning on behalf of everyone.  25000 troops needs somewhere to go.  Having them hang out in the capitol building on their breaks is dumb.  Having them go back to their hotels is dumb.  Having them go to a parking garage with just two sh!tters is dumb.  

And, having 25000 NG troops in WA DC is/was dumb and cost the tax payer plenty of money.  So I understand it correctly -  our fearless government doesn't listen to credible chatter about the possibility of unrest on 6 JAN.  Basic measures weren't taken to be able to contain/control/react to a large crowd (that had a permit).  They storm the capitol building because a phalanx of 8 bike cops just isn't enough to stop a couple of thousand people that casually walk around unmanned barriers, given them unhindered access to a building that houses or legislative body.  We then over react and deploy 25K NG troops from all over the country and place them in a deserted city.  Brilliant work!


----------



## watfly (Jan 22, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Agree. Just like this place- exposed!


Yep, Notintheface for dropping the "C" word and Husker Du for laughing about it are Exhibit A of exposing cockroaches to the light.   Whatever vile being that is behind the Husker Du name is a complete insult to a great American band.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

happy9 said:


> His strings are being pulled.  Big government rarely/barely understands impacts of emotional policies.  It's likely that shutting down the XL pipeline is going to INCREASE emissions - crude oil is still going to be delivered, just not through the pipeline.  And of course there is the instant loss of jobs, which is just silly given the current economic conditions.  There will likely be regulatory uncertainty for big investors.  That will suppress future projects, jobs, etc.
> 
> Vaccine deployment is  certainly an issue - plenty of blame to go around.


I thought the XL pipeline is already on hold, per the Supreme Court in July, pending environmental assessments in Montana. If that's the case, then there are no immediate jobs impact either way.

It seems to be a much broader issue, to me, anyway

At the current price of crude (and for the last year) its, at best, marginally viable economically, i.e. price of crude > $60 is viable but under probably not when it costs $8B to $12B to build. Crude is running under $60 per barrel.
There are already two other pipelines so why not just expand capacity (which they are already doing) on those or use those existing routes.
The jobs created during construction (2 years) is around 40K, although probably not all at the same time. The permanent jobs created is around 50. The US needs to create 200K jobs per month in normal times to maintain the same employment levels, so while 40K is nothing to be sneezed at, its no panacea.
This is some of the dirtiest oil out there, and if it spills - and they always spill - it will have very real environmental impact.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I think you call politicians on hypocrisy.
> 
> I agree more importantly you call them on policies that costs money/jobs.
> 
> ...


I can't say as I'm a fan of fracking. IMV the direction should be renewables. I do get the short term gains, but the long term unknowns out weigh those, to me anyway.

Pros and cons of fracking: 5 key issues » Yale Climate Connections


----------



## happy9 (Jan 22, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I thought the XL pipeline is already on hold, per the Supreme Court in July, pending environmental assessments in Montana. If that's the case, then there are no immediate jobs impact either way.
> 
> It seems to be a much broader issue, to me, anyway
> 
> ...


The way I understand it, this project was well underway, clearing hurdles along the way.  It's the most studied infrastructure project in american history.

as far as the green politics are concerned..mehhh.  Their is always concern when dealing with petrol. This decision is 100% political and will have downstream economic impacts, near and long term.  Direct/indirect job loss/gain will be argued until the nth degree. Petrol politics are complex.  It's always more simple to look at it from a macro economic perspective.  

I don't know the cost to expand existing infrastructure or how efficient that infrastructure is.  Bottom line is that oil will be delivered, one way or the other. The Keystone pipeline already exists.  

Is there environmental risk -sure their is.  Will the Canadians still build it, but not cross the border into the US - Maybe.  They could route it west to BC.  We would have zero leverage on where that oil goes, who gets it, how much, etc, etc..


----------



## watfly (Jan 22, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I can't say as I'm a fan of fracking. IMV the direction should be renewables. I do get the short term gains, but the long term unknowns out weigh those, to me anyway.
> 
> Pros and cons of fracking: 5 key issues » Yale Climate Connections


I will just say that for me the geopolitical benefits of being energy independent far outweigh any climate risks of fracking or the pipeline...at least in the short term until we can develop better alternatives.

I personally don't care for the unsightly aspect of solar and wind farms.  I'm a big proponent of solar for individual buildings, and have converted two of our facilities with excellent results.  Years ago I was the liquidating Trustee for the worlds largest wind power company, so I'm aware of many of its faults and efficiency problems (although I suspect some may have since been resolved since that time).

IMO nuclear energy and battery technology are far and away the best alternatives.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

watfly said:


> I will just say that for me the geopolitical benefits of being energy independent far outweigh any climate risks of fracking or the pipeline...at least in the short term until we can develop better alternatives.
> 
> I personally don't care for the unsightly aspect of solar and wind farms.  I'm a big proponent of solar for individual buildings, and have converted two of our facilities with excellent results.  Years ago I was the liquidating Trustee for the worlds largest wind power company, so I'm aware of many of its faults and efficiency problems (although I suspect some may have since been resolved since that time).
> 
> IMO nuclear energy and battery technology are far and away the best alternatives.


I probably agree on nuclear. Batteries have their own issues, not least on the raw materials to produce and where they are, exploitation and longevity of supply. I think nano technology may be the game changer on renewables long term.

I'd prefer the unslightly aspect of operational solar & wind farms versus the unsightly aspect of tens of thousands of expired fracking wells all over the country.


----------



## watfly (Jan 22, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I probably agree on nuclear. Batteries have their own issues, not least on the raw materials to produce and where they are, exploitation and longevity of supply. I think nano technology may be the game changer on renewables long term.
> 
> I'd prefer the unslightly aspect of operational solar & wind farms versus the unsightly aspect of tens of thousands of expired fracking wells all over the country.


Fair point on current battery technology.  If we're allowing expired fracking wells to stand, I have a huge problem with that.  The landscape should be restored to its prior condition.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

happy9 said:


> The way I understand it, this project was well underway, clearing hurdles along the way.  It's the most studied infrastructure project in american history.
> 
> as far as the green politics are concerned..mehhh.  Their is always concern when dealing with petrol. This decision is 100% political and will have downstream economic impacts, near and long term.  Direct/indirect job loss/gain will be argued until the nth degree. Petrol politics are complex.  It's always more simple to look at it from a macro economic perspective.
> 
> ...


The sand oil isn't an economic game changer from a US economic perspective. Its more of a nice to have - from a macro level. Its seems a lot of political capital being used for a marginal marco level economic benefit.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 22, 2021)

watfly said:


> Fair point on current battery technology.  If we're allowing expired fracking wells to stand, I have a huge problem with that.  The landscape should be restored to its prior condition.


Oil companies are not into clean up ... never have been.

Just one article for one state, Pennsylvania Faces New Wave of Abandoned Oil and Gas Wells | Pennsylvania News | US News


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I just find this very disturbing. Political thought is starting to be suppressed online.
> 
> "Parler, which emerged as a Twitter alternative for conservatives, officially went offline on Monday after Amazon Web Services refused to host the site any longer. Following the Capitol riots on Wednesday, Apple and Google removed Parler from their app stores, claiming the site had refused to take down posts inciting violence. On Saturday, Amazon announced it would follow suit after employees pressured the company to remove Parler.
> 
> ...


Ha ha. Amazon squished Parler in court like the cockroach bug that it is. The First Amendment and free enterprise are alive and well. 

You should be very concerned that this is just the first of many traitorous magat companies to go down.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 22, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The sand oil isn't an economic game changer from a US economic perspective. Its more of a nice to have - from a macro level. Its seems a lot of political capital being used for a marginal marco level economic benefit.


Maybe not a game changer but it's a pillar of stability for plenty of local economies.  Economists always seem to overlook micros.  56% or so of all crude imports come from Canada - I would guess most of that goes to our midwest refineries. Don't forget other energy import/export that goes on between the US and Canada.  It's pretty balanced.  Not everything needs to be a game changer, most things aren't.  Stability is the key.  Eventual transition to renewables is certain, how we get there is the question.  Politicians don't know how to not be emotional, greedy, and self serving.  They'll figure out a way divide people into factions and cause friction.

Leave it up to politicians to politicize.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha. Amazon squished Parler in court like the cockroach bug that it is. The First Amendment and free enterprise are alive and well.
> 
> You should be very concerned that this is just the first of many traitorous magat companies to go down.


How is silencing someone supporting the 1st Amendment?  Go ahead and put on your tin foil dress before answering, Emperor.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 22, 2021)

watfly said:


> I will just say that for me the geopolitical benefits of being energy independent far outweigh any climate risks of fracking or the pipeline...at least in the short term until we can develop better alternatives.


^^^^THIS

The reality is we will be using fossil fuels for many decades to come. To pretend otherwise is just that. Pretending.

It is far better for the US to not be reliant on getting fossil fuels from other countries.




watfly said:


> IMO nuclear energy and battery technology are far and away the best alternatives.


For those that believe climate change is THE ISSUE of the day, they should be supporting nuclear now. 

At some point renewables will play a much larger role in powering our lifestyles.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> How is silencing someone supporting the 1st Amendment?  Go ahead and put on your tin foil dress before answering, Emperor.


People have every right to tell companies how they feel about who they do business with and to organize a boycott when they do something reprehensible or work with someone who does.  Furthermore, the First Amendment protects people and companies from being mandated to share a point of view to to which they’re opposed, which is exactly what Parler is trying to force companies to do. That is the very thing the First Amendment prohibits.

It’s absolutely ridiculous that Parler blocks people from using its platform to post content it doesn’t like and then thinks it can turn around and sue others for blocking content they don’t like. It’s even more ridiculous that you think the First Amendment can be used as a weapon to force companies to publish  opinions against their will. The First Amendment not only protects a private citizen from government interference with what they say, but also with what they won’t. If you are Parler want to say stupid s**t, no one can be compelled to publish or support it unless the contract says so, and clearly it does not. 

God you’re so stupid. Trumpanzee-level stupid.


----------



## crush (Jan 22, 2021)




----------



## soccersc (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> People have every right to tell companies how they feel about who they do business with and to organize a boycott when they do something reprehensible or work with someone who does.  Furthermore, the First Amendment protects people and companies from being mandated to share a point of view to to which they’re opposed, which is exactly what Parler is trying to force companies to do. That is the very thing the First Amendment prohibits.
> 
> It’s absolutely ridiculous that Parler blocks people from using its platform to post content it doesn’t like and then thinks it can turn around and sue others for blocking content they don’t like. It’s even more ridiculous that you think the First Amendment can be used as a weapon to force companies to publish  opinions against their will. The First Amendment not only protects a private citizen from government interference with what they say, but also with what they won’t. If you are Parler want to say stupid s**t, no one can be compelled to publish or support it unless the contract says so, and clearly it does not.
> 
> God you’re so stupid. Trumpanzee-level stupid.


I thought you'd like this a letter to President Biden about all the great work Newsom is doing in California.  It is in response to the letter Newsom wrote to the President about all the great things going on in California



			https://blog.electkevinkiley.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Letter-to-President-Biden-FINAL-01212021-1.pdf


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> People have every right to tell companies how they feel about who they do business with and to organize a boycott when they do something reprehensible or work with someone who does.  Furthermore, the First Amendment protects people and companies from being mandated to share a point of view to to which they’re opposed, which is exactly what Parler is trying to force companies to do. That is the very thing the First Amendment prohibits.
> 
> It’s absolutely ridiculous that Parler blocks people from using its platform to post content it doesn’t like and then thinks it can turn around and sue others for blocking content they don’t like. It’s even more ridiculous that you think the First Amendment can be used as a weapon to force companies to publish  opinions against their will. The First Amendment not only protects a private citizen from government interference with what they say, but also with what they won’t. If you are Parler want to say stupid s**t, no one can be compelled to publish or support it unless the contract says so, and clearly it does not.
> 
> God you’re so stupid. Trumpanzee-level stupid.


Oh, but you’re okay with Facebook censoring people for NOT adhering to their mandated opinion.  You liberals are so hypocritical it’s embarrassing.


----------



## watfly (Jan 22, 2021)

soccersc said:


> I thought you'd like this a letter to President Biden about all the great work Newsom is doing in California.  It is in response to the letter Newsom wrote to the President about all the great things going on in California
> 
> 
> 
> https://blog.electkevinkiley.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Letter-to-President-Biden-FINAL-01212021-1.pdf


Brilliant.  I'm sure Biden's peeps sent it direct to the round file...facts are inconvenient, and just too many of them for Biden's attention span.  Queue emotional argument from EOTL defending Newsom...or maybe just insults.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Oh, but you’re okay with Facebook censoring people for NOT adhering to their mandated opinion.  You liberals are so hypocritical it’s embarrassing.


No one can force Facebook to publish magat lies against its will. That would very clearly violate the First Amendment. How does it feel to hate the First Amendment? How does it feel to hate freedom? Your Russian handler must be so proud. 

I feel bad for your children, especially if your stupidity is genetic.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No one can force Facebook to publish magat lies against its will. That would very clearly violate the First Amendment. How does it feel to hate the First Amendment? How does it feel to hate freedom? Your Russian handler must be so proud.
> 
> I feel bad for your children, especially if your stupidity is genetic.


Not cool bringing kids into it.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 22, 2021)

Apparently Biden thinks his mask mandate isn't going to do very much.  There's apparently nothing we can do to change the pandemic in the next 100 days....errr several months .


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352712833511919623


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 22, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Not cool bringing kids into it.


He's done that several times before, including with my kid and his breakdown.  It's why he and Sheriff Joe were the only 2 I ever ignored.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Not cool bringing kids into it.


You are correct. Maybe some day the people here will figure that out and stop it. Until then, I play by socalsoccer magat rules.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> No one can force Facebook to publish magat lies against its will. That would very clearly violate the First Amendment. How does it feel to hate the First Amendment? How does it feel to hate freedom? Your Russian handler must be so proud.
> 
> I feel bad for your children, especially if your stupidity is genetic.


You’re the one supporting censorship, fool.  You’re fine with it if it supports your position, which is typically pushing your pecker downward when you sit to pee.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You are correct. Maybe some day the people here will figure that out and stop it. Until then, I play by socalsoccer magat rules.


Maybe if you had kids playing soccer instead of just being on a youth soccer forum from 7 am to midnight everyday?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Apparently Biden thinks his mask mandate isn't going to do very much.  There's apparently nothing we can do to change the pandemic in the next 100 days....errr several months .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352712833511919623


Yeah, he’s a true leader.  Trump “wasn’t doing anything” and now this babbling, douchebag admits he can’t do jack shit.  Typical democrat that can’t do anything but point the finger before he shoves it up his own ass.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

And yet another, babbling moron from the libtard party.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiZyIz4u7DuAhVCJzQIHf2DCgsQFjABegQIARAB&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdY7yVYZMxw&usg=AOvVaw2IzOVF7_SzVKpLl4nLA1LI


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> You’re the one supporting censorship, fool.  You’re fine with it if it supports your position, which is typically pushing your pecker downward when you sit to pee.


Sucks to be on the losing end again instead of what you’re usually doing to yourself, eh?


----------



## soccersc (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Sucks to be on the losing end again instead of what you’re usually doing to yourself, eh?


Do you think Newsom is winning right about now??? I guess FACTS are all in the eye of the beholder??? I don't think it used to be that way
https://blog.electkevinkiley.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Letter-to-President-Biden-FINAL-01212021-1.pdf


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Sucks to be on the losing end again instead of what you’re usually doing to yourself, eh?


Losing end?  You’re the one here, 24/7, telling everybody how stupid they are.  What are you compensating for, daddy’s shame?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

soccersc said:


> Do you think Newsom is winning right about now??? I guess FACTS are all in the eye of the beholder??? I don't think it used to be that way
> https://blog.electkevinkiley.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Letter-to-President-Biden-FINAL-01212021-1.pdf


Yup. He’s sitting at the governor’s desk driving you crazy. Winning. 

Who the hell is Kevin Kiley?  A nobody, that’s who. His grandstanding letter has already been circular-filed. Maybe you should send your own to the President of the United States.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> People have every right to tell companies how they feel about who they do business with and to organize a boycott when they do something reprehensible or work with someone who does.  Furthermore, the First Amendment protects people and companies from being mandated to share a point of view to to which they’re opposed, which is exactly what Parler is trying to force companies to do. That is the very thing the First Amendment prohibits.
> 
> It’s absolutely ridiculous that Parler blocks people from using its platform to post content it doesn’t like and then thinks it can turn around and sue others for blocking content they don’t like. It’s even more ridiculous that you think the First Amendment can be used as a weapon to force companies to publish  opinions against their will. The First Amendment not only protects a private citizen from government interference with what they say, but also with what they won’t. If you are Parler want to say stupid s**t, no one can be compelled to publish or support it unless the contract says so, and clearly it does not.
> 
> God you’re so stupid. Trumpanzee-level stupid.


The trumpist are driven by emotion.


----------



## soccersc (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Yup. He’s sitting at the governor’s desk driving you crazy. Winning.
> 
> Who the hell is Kevin Kiley?  A nobody, that’s who. His grandstanding letter has already been circular-filed. Maybe you should send your own to the President of the United States.


Hahaha a nobody??? And who do you think you are?? hahaha...you’re the loser, a kid that hangs out on a soccer forum trolling, no life, whose the real loser....and you have the nerve to call Kiley a nobody??? Dude, you are too funny... you really have no clue


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 22, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The trumpist are driven by emotion.


How much longer is Trump going to live in your head?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 22, 2021)

soccersc said:


> Hahaha a nobody??? And who do you think you are?? hahaha...you’re the loser, a kid that hangs out on a soccer forum trolling, no life, whose the real loser....and you have the nerve to call Kiley a nobody??? Dude, you are too funny... you really have no clue


Beating down magats is an important public service.


----------



## soccersc (Jan 22, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Beating down magats is an important public service.


Oh, much more important than a California Legislator, I see.  Keep up the good work.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 23, 2021)

soccersc said:


> Oh, much more important than a California Legislator, I see.  Keep up the good work.


Ha ha. It doesn’t look like your boy has ever been a deciding vote or even proposed a bill that’s ever passed other than a resolution for positive parenting awareness month. This dumbf**k gets paid $110,000 plus per diem of almost $200 a day. Yeah, I’m more important than that magat since I’ve made just as much progress in the CA legislature as him but am 200,000x less costly.  Even the cost of the freakin’ stamp for his gratuitous grandstanding letter was a waste of taxpayer dollars other than maybe the woodie it gave you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 23, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Ha ha. It doesn’t look like your boy has ever been a deciding vote or even proposed a bill that’s ever passed other than a resolution for positive parenting awareness month. This dumbf**k gets paid $110,000 plus per diem of almost $200 a day. Yeah, I’m more important than that magat since I’ve made just as much progress in the CA legislature as him but am 200,000x less costly.  Even the cost of the freakin’ stamp for his gratuitous grandstanding letter was a waste of taxpayer dollars other than maybe the woodie it gave you.


Trumpists are inherently lazy.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Not cool bringing kids into it.


You mean like Scotty boy does? Or do transgender youth not count in your mind?

Like I said earlier, his kids are f**ked, and I thoroughly enjoy daddy getting what he deserves, which are children who are weak athletes growing up to be losers in a bigoted snowflake household full of self-pity.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> You mean like Scotty boy does? Or do transgender youth not count in your mind?
> 
> Like I said earlier, his kids are f**ked, and I thoroughly enjoy daddy getting what he deserves, which are children who are weak athletes growing up to be losers in a bigoted snowflake household full of self-pity.
> 
> View attachment 9997


So @Glitterhater, why exactly is his kid off limits when it’s ok for him to make disgusting derogatory comments about transgender youth?  Is it because you think it’s super fun to mock transgender youth?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> So @Glitterhater, why exactly is his kid off limits when it’s ok for him to make disgusting derogatory comments about transgender youth?  Is it because you think it’s super fun to mock transgender youth?
> 
> View attachment 9998


Magat bashing is an important public service.

If your kid can’t get one of the 60,000 college roster spots because zero of them were filled by a transgender woman, how terrible a soccer player must she be? Does she even know which goal the ball is supposed to go into?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> So @Glitterhater, why exactly is his kid off limits when it’s ok for him to make disgusting derogatory comments about transgender youth?  Is it because you think it’s super fun to mock transgender youth?
> 
> View attachment 9998



Did I hurt you?  Certainly not as much as the “bad” man, right?  We know, it’s okay for you to label everyone else as “assholes” but you despise the label club.  

You were picked last in P.E.  Does your index finger still bend after all these years of running around pointing it at people?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Did I hurt you?  Certainly not as much as the “bad” man, right?  We know, it’s okay for you to label everyone else as “assholes” but you despise the label club.
> 
> You were picked last in P.E.  Does your index finger still bend after all these years of running around pointing it at people?


That’s one way to defend your bigotry (and your kid’s failure as an athlete). You should steer her toward academics while there is still time, or is she as dumb as she is a bad athlete?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> That’s one way to defend your bigotry (and your kid’s failure as an athlete). You should steer her toward academics while there is still time, or is she as dumb as she is a bad athlete?


How do you know my kid is a failure?  Or that I even have a kid in athletics? 

I could just spend every waking moment here, like you do, being a pathetic loser.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

WTH? How did I get dragged into this?


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> WTH? How did I get dragged into this?


Because of your selective outrage and indifference towards the same behavior when it’s “only” bashing transgender youth. So do you hate LGBTQ youth?  Is “tranny” an appropriate thing to call a transgender youth?  How about that comment about bringing the popcorn and jockstraps?  Did you find that funny? You think it’s not ok to tell someone their kid is a middling athlete (which is probably the god’s honest truth btw), when they say degrading things about other children because they’re looking for excuses in advance to explain why their kid isn’t going to get recruited for college soccer?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> So @Glitterhater, why exactly is his kid off limits when it’s ok for him to make disgusting derogatory comments about transgender youth?  Is it because you think it’s super fun to mock transgender youth?
> 
> View attachment 9998


trumpist are hypocrites first and foremost.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trumpist are hypocrites first and foremost.


Actually I think trumpanzees are hypocrites and bigots first and foremost.


----------



## watfly (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> WTH? How did I get dragged into this?


You deviated from the narrative.  EOTL has it easy, he doesn't have to think, he just checks the boxes in the far left playbook.  Your problem is you use common sense to evaluate each issue on its own merits.

The irony is that he and his sycophants demean and diminish words like "racist" and "bigot" because they just spew that word out their pie holes because they're incapable of intelligent debate.  It's akin to "crying wolf", his words have lost all meaning.  He does more damaged to his alleged cause.  His messages are actually a public disservice.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

watfly said:


> You deviated from the narrative.  EOTL has it easy, he doesn't have to think, he just checks the boxes in the far left playbook.  Your problem is you use common sense to evaluate each issue on its own merits.
> 
> The irony is that he and his sycophants demean and diminish words like "racist" and "bigot" because they just spew that word out their pie holes because they're incapable of intelligent debate.  It's akin to "crying wolf", his words have lost all meaning.  He does more damaged to his alleged cause.  His messages are actually a public disservice.


The far left radicals are coming for you. We have stolen government from you, destroyed your social media safe spaces, made you have abortions and now we’re not even letting the few daughters who do get to live lose races in CT anymore. Soon it will be over and there will be no more women’s sports and nowhere to whine about it online. Maybe we’ll even lock y’all in cages.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Because of your selective outrage and indifference towards the same behavior when it’s “only” bashing transgender youth. So do you hate LGBTQ youth?  Is “tranny” an appropriate thing to call a transgender youth?  How about that comment about bringing the popcorn and jockstraps?  Did you find that funny? You think it’s not ok to tell someone their kid is a middling athlete (which is probably the god’s honest truth btw), when they say degrading things about other children because they’re looking for excuses in advance to explain why their kid isn’t going to get recruited for college soccer?


It's not my job to white knight the dumpster fire that is this thread. You know nothing about me. Keep making those ASSumptions, those will serve you well.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> It's not my job to white knight the dumpster fire that is this thread. You know nothing about me. Keep making those ASSumptions, those will serve you well.


Yes to all then?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Actually I think trumpanzees are hypocrites and bigots first and foremost.


“I’m the least racist person there is” (a version of I know a black person) “look at my African-American!” (a version of I’m a religious warrior therefore exempt from scrutiny).


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

watfly said:


> You deviated from the narrative.  EOTL has it easy, he doesn't have to think, he just checks the boxes in the far left playbook.  Your problem is you use common sense to evaluate each issue on its own merits.
> 
> The irony is that he and his sycophants demean and diminish words like "racist" and "bigot" because they just spew that word out their pie holes because they're incapable of intelligent debate.  It's akin to "crying wolf", his words have lost all meaning.  He does more damaged to his alleged cause.  His messages are actually a public disservice.


By “intelligent debate” you mean accept your rationalization of the tenets of your new faith that just happens to align with your long held prejudices. Exactly what the wannabe pharaoh was counting on. trump U is due to begin accepting new students you better get your retainer fee in before the rush!


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Yes to all then?


I actually feel really badly for you. I don't need to explain anything to you- if you've formed your opinion of me, that's fine. What you ASSume about me is none of my business. If you want some self reflection, go back through this thread and look at your behavior. I am not on here nearly as much as you as I have a family and great life. I hope the same for you, whether you're transgender, gay, straight, purple, green.. you get the picture. 

I believe I even said, (when Scott Shurson posted the photo of the transgender person in a slanderous way,) that it was highly disappointing behavior. But you were probably too busy spewing BS to notice. 

Good day sir.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> How much longer is Trump going to live in your head?


You have yet to turn Judas, that time will come.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trumpist are hypocrites first and foremost.


That's funny:

-Biden signs a mask mandate and breaks it hours later
-Harris denounces Capitol violence but her campaign bailed out rioters in spring/summer
-Pelosi and her haircuts
-Lightfoot and her haircuts
-Newsom and French Laundry
-Pritzker and sending his family to Florida
-C. Cuomo lecturing everyone then breaks quarantine
-Whitmer and her husband's boat
-Raimondo tells everyone to stay home then goes to a wine bar
-Austin mayor threatens his constituents with harsher lockdowns from Cabo
-Supervisor Kuehl votes to ban outdoor dining and is caught outdoor dining that evening
-Denver Mayor Hancock tweets avoid travel if you can while on  a plane to visit his daughter
-DC Mayor Bowser orders a travel quarantine then travels to a Biden victory party
-Philadelphia Mayor Kenney shuts down indoor dining then gets spotted dining in Maryland
-Gov. Cuomo goes to Georgia on the NY travel advisory list, doesn't quarantine on return, and gets caught maskless
-De Blasio going to the gym and visiting parks outside his neighborhood during the worst of the NY lockdowns
-Garcetti joined the BLM protestors after issuing stay at home orders in Los Angeles
-NM Gov Grisham does a private shopping spree at a jewelry store after she shuts down stores
-Chicago teachers union leader campaigns to keep schools shut while traveling in the Caribbean
-Fauci gets caught repeatedly without his mask when cameras are off


----------



## watfly (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> By “intelligent debate” you mean accept your rationalization of the tenets of your new faith that just happens to align with your long held prejudices. Exactly what the wannabe pharaoh was counting on. trump U is due to begin accepting new students you better get your retainer fee in before the rush!


Thanks for proving my point.  Now please stop embarrassing Bob and the band and choose a more appropriate username.  Rage Against the Machine would seem more appropriate for your middle school political sensibilities.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You have yet to turn Judas, that time will come.


Welcome back!  Got your internet service turned on?  Did you thank Trump for the stimulus handout?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Because of your selective outrage and indifference towards the same behavior when it’s “only” bashing transgender youth. So do you hate LGBTQ youth?  Is “tranny” an appropriate thing to call a transgender youth?  How about that comment about bringing the popcorn and jockstraps?  Did you find that funny? You think it’s not ok to tell someone their kid is a middling athlete (which is probably the god’s honest truth btw), when they say degrading things about other children because they’re looking for excuses in advance to explain why their kid isn’t going to get recruited for college soccer?


Reminds me of your indifference towards females.  We should change your handle to “The Tuck Rule”.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I actually feel really badly for you. I don't need to explain anything to you- if you've formed your opinion of me, that's fine. What you ASSume about me is none of my business. If you want some self reflection, go back through this thread and look at your behavior. I am not on here nearly as much as you as I have a family and great life. I hope the same for you, whether you're transgender, gay, straight, purple, green.. you get the picture.
> 
> I believe I even said, (when Scott Shurson posted the photo of the transgender person in a slanderous way,) that it was highly disappointing behavior. But you were probably too busy spewing BS to notice.
> 
> Good day sir.


Did I post a tranny photo in a slanderous way?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I actually feel really badly for you. I don't need to explain anything to you- if you've formed your opinion of me, that's fine. What you ASSume about me is none of my business. If you want some self reflection, go back through this thread and look at your behavior. I am not on here nearly as much as you as I have a family and great life. I hope the same for you, whether you're transgender, gay, straight, purple, green.. you get the picture.
> 
> I believe I even said, (when Scott Shurson posted the photo of the transgender person in a slanderous way,) that it was highly disappointing behavior. But you were probably too busy spewing BS to notice.
> 
> Good day sir.


Don't let the keyboard jockey get into your head.  He doesn't realize he's the one being mocked.  There isn't an ethical or moral bone in his/her/it's body.  Sit back and watch him spew magatness left and right.  It's Sunday - no change from the garbage posted on friday, and before.   It's quite hilarious how frothy some get.  trump is gone, biden is in, life goes on.

I hope for everyone in CAs sake, some sensible plan is put into place for getting your kids back safely on the field playing futbol.  If not, I'll see you when you travel to AZ for weekend friendlies.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trumpist are hypocrites first and foremost.


Are they the only hypocrites, or are they the only ones that matter to you?  I know small minds think alike so don't answer the question - consult your caped crusader buddy first.

I do admire your consistency and passion though.  You appear to be loyal to your cause and have a more balanced approach to your message.  You'd make a great employee, just have to promise to tone down your internet presence.  Passion is am important character trait for employers.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 24, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That's funny:
> 
> -Biden signs a mask mandate and breaks it hours later
> -Harris denounces Capitol violence but her campaign bailed out rioters in spring/summer
> ...


SHHH, they prefer to practice the antonyms of critical thinking.  It's easier that way.  Linear thinking requires less effort


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

watfly said:


> Thanks for proving my point.  Now please stop embarrassing Bob and the band and choose a more appropriate username.  Rage Against the Machine would seem more appropriate for your middle school political sensibilities.


Yeah, you believe trump. You must be a jenious, an angry aggrieved jenious, but you’re really smart and use the best words! You funny!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 24, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That's funny:
> 
> -Biden signs a mask mandate and breaks it hours later
> -Harris denounces Capitol violence but her campaign bailed out rioters in spring/summer
> ...


Yes I’m sure that all happened, at least as far as you were told.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes I’m sure that all happened, at least as far as you were told.


Did it not happen if we saw all of these on video, dummy?


----------



## happy9 (Jan 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes I’m sure that all happened, at least as far as you were told.


All of it was made up - kinda like russia kolusion, ukraine kolusion, china kolusion, bursima kolusion,

Government is good at making you pick a side.  Ideologues like you eat that stuff up.  Don't worry, you aren't the first to be duped, and you won't be the last.  It's what the gubment does.  You think you know the truth as it's told to you, but you really don't.  You've lost your ability to think clearly and make your own determinations.  You saw Gavy eating dinner, you want to believe, but it's hard for you to go against your master.  Just the way it is.  

The hardest part is the adulting part.  Once you figure that out, you'll be ok..


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Did I post a tranny photo in a slanderous way?


I mean, isn't "tranny" in and of itself not the best verbiage to use? And I believe it was you who was calling the individual "it", and mocking her looks- no? If I'm incorrect I'll own up to it. Honestly, I didn't intend on beating this dead horse, I just got bat signaled to this damn thread!


----------



## dad4 (Jan 24, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That's funny:
> 
> -Biden signs a mask mandate and breaks it hours later
> -Harris denounces Capitol violence but her campaign bailed out rioters in spring/summer
> ...


Kind of a short list when you think about it.  There are a lot of politicians big city mayor and above. 

If only 20 or so got caught, then more are following the rules than I would have thought possible.

The good news is that cases are down.  California's daily case load is about half what it was 2 or 3 weeks ago.  It needs to be cut in half four more times for us all to hit orange.  8 to 12 weeks.

That is, 8 to 12 weeks unless we are all morons and start having dinner parties.  Add some extra time if we all throw out our masks and visit friends indoors again.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Kind of a short list when you think about it.  There are a lot of politicians big city mayor and above.
> 
> If only 20 or so got caught, then more are following the rules than I would have thought possible.
> 
> ...


Trips to Utah to play kiddie soccer are also highly discouraged.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 24, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Kind of a short list when you think about it.  There are a lot of politicians big city mayor and above.
> 
> If only 20 or so got caught, then more are following the rules than I would have thought possible.
> 
> ...


This list isn’t comprehensive. For example San Jose and San Francisco mayors or the reps and senators (like Feinstein in the airport or the rep which flew despite being covid exposed for Pelosi as speaker). I’m frankly surprised you aren’t more outraged by the list which includes the president, speaker, governors of 4 major states and mayors of the largest cities and those are only the ones caught. If they can’t follow their own rules what hope for the rest of us. You expect everyone else to act like an angel when those that know better can’t.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 24, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I mean, isn't "tranny" in and of itself not the best verbiage to use? And I believe it was you who was calling the individual "it", and mocking her looks- no? If I'm incorrect I'll own up to it. Honestly, I didn't intend on beating this dead horse, I just got bat signaled to this damn thread!


Well, I was originally mocking the token appointment to the job.  I can’t be blamed for ugly men making ugly women, Glitter.  I feel you judged me a bit harshly there.

What do you call more than one tranny?  Is like “deer”?  Maybe “trani”?  Seems like “tranny” shouldn’t be offensive if “transsexual” is the woke term.  I sometimes use “it” just in case “he or she” is offensive.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell which direction the tranny is transitioning to, you know?  You swimming upstream or downstream?  What stage of “transition” are you in?  You tucking or already nipped?  

Pronouns are no longer a laughing matter.  Certainly not as funny as that ugly man in lipstick and a wig that got promoted because Biden promised it in return for votes.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 24, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> This list isn’t comprehensive. For example San Jose and San Francisco mayors or the reps and senators (like Feinstein in the airport or the rep which flew despite being covid exposed for Pelosi as speaker). I’m frankly surprised you aren’t more outraged by the list which includes the president, speaker, governors of 4 major states and mayors of the largest cities and those are only the ones caught. If they can’t follow their own rules what hope for the rest of us. You expect everyone else to act like an angel when those that know better can’t.


I don't expect everyone to be angels.

I expect everyone to try to follow the rules, knowing that most people will slip up occasionally.

If someone had one dinner party in 6 months, that is small.  It is a similar scale error to French Laundry, and not all that important.

But, if someone has friends over indoors every week, they are clearly not even trying to follow the rules.  Those are the ones which annoy me.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 24, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Well, I was originally mocking the token appointment to the job.  I can’t be blamed for ugly men making ugly women, Glitter.  I feel you judged me a bit harshly there.
> 
> What do you call more than one tranny?  Is like “deer”?  Maybe “trani”?  Seems like “tranny” shouldn’t be offensive if “transsexual” is the woke term.  I sometimes use “it” just in case “he or she” is offensive.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell which direction the tranny is transitioning to, you know?  You swimming upstream or downstream?  What stage of “transition” are you in?  You tucking or already nipped?
> 
> Pronouns are no longer a laughing matter.  Certainly not as funny as that ugly man in lipstick and a wig that got promoted because Biden promised it in return for votes.


Apparently it’s fair game to mock people’s appearances, no apology necessary. So let’s do this thing.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Well, I was originally mocking the token appointment to the job.  I can’t be blamed for ugly men making ugly women, Glitter.  I feel you judged me a bit harshly there.
> 
> What do you call more than one tranny?  Is like “deer”?  Maybe “trani”?  Seems like “tranny” shouldn’t be offensive if “transsexual” is the woke term.  I sometimes use “it” just in case “he or she” is offensive.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell which direction the tranny is transitioning to, you know?  You swimming upstream or downstream?  What stage of “transition” are you in?  You tucking or already nipped?
> 
> Pronouns are no longer a laughing matter.  Certainly not as funny as that ugly man in lipstick and a wig that got promoted because Biden promised it in return for votes.


I... I'm not even sure what to say to all of this. I am more equipped to talk about soccer than I am about the proper way to describe someone's transition. I would assume there is a plural form of the word.

My final take on this is that I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate talking negatively about anyone's children, and I don't like making fun of anyone's looks- but hey, that's just me. We're all nuts, right?


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 24, 2021)

And to add- I am definitely not "woke". Too old and too tired.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 24, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Trips to Utah to play kiddie soccer are also highly discouraged.


Why?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 25, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> Did it not happen if we saw all of these on video, dummy?


Did we.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 25, 2021)

happy9 said:


> All of it was made up - kinda like russia kolusion, ukraine kolusion, china kolusion, bursima kolusion,
> 
> Government is good at making you pick a side.  Ideologues like you eat that stuff up.  Don't worry, you aren't the first to be duped, and you won't be the last.  It's what the gubment does.  You think you know the truth as it's told to you, but you really don't.  You've lost your ability to think clearly and make your own determinations.  You saw Gavy eating dinner, you want to believe, but it's hard for you to go against your master.  Just the way it is.
> 
> The hardest part is the adulting part.  Once you figure that out, you'll be ok..


Uh, yeah sure, whatever you say Pepe’. Kasich 2024!


----------



## happy9 (Jan 25, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Uh, yeah sure, whatever you say Pepe’. Kasich 2024!


scintillating response, nice job. Kasich, Biden, Mo, Curly - all the same.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 25, 2021)

By the way...this is some of the corruption that T got rid of that B has brought back.

What they had been doing is having the corporations pay settlement funds to various groups that generally supported Dem causes. Those groups then used those fund to promote Dem politicians, etc.

The essence of corruption.

"President Trump got rid of the Obama/Biden slush funds where the Justice Department, CFPB, and EPA shook down corporations and then used the negotiated settlements that they were forced to pay (taxpayer money) to funnel kickbacks to their political supporters."
-
"In the first set of Executive Orders signed today by Joe Biden was the reversal of a DOJ policy put in place by Attorney General Jeff Sessions which prohibited provisions in settlement agreements in civil litigation that directed the opposing party to pay the money from the settlement to some third-party interest group that DOJ believed could put the money to better use than having it go into the Treasury of the United States."

- 

"One case that got some notoriety was a settlement with Gibson Guitars over allegations that the company illegally imported ivory and rosewood from Madagascar and India.  The Obama Justice Department opened the case as a criminal matter — shockingly — but later reached a civil settlement whereby Gibson agreed to pay a fine of $300,000 to avoid criminal prosecution.  *But another part of the settlement required Gibson pay $50,000 to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, a private entity.*"

"A much more illuminating example of this practice, one that shows exactly how it can be used as a funding mechanism for all manner of Democrat Party interest groups, was the 2014 settlement of claims against Bank of America relating to the 2008 mortgage fraud crisis. Out of the total of $17 billion DOJ required BofA to pay, nearly $7 billion went to left-wing activist groups associated with Democrat party special interests."









						Joe Biden's DOJ to Resume Extorting Money From Corporations to Benefit Leftist Groups
					

The money spigot looks like it is back on for left-wing groups grifting from DOJ litigation




					redstate.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 25, 2021)

Biden Freezes Rule Capping Insulin And Epipen Prices - Victory Girls Blog
					

Insulin




					victorygirlsblog.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 25, 2021)

"Yesterday, The United Nations released its Emissions Gap Report 2020, an annual assessment of contributions to greenhouse gas and carbon emissions. The report has some notable information amid an array of complicated projections that may or may not come true. It claims, for instance, that “despite a brief dip in carbon dioxide emissions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, the world is still heading for a temperature rise.” 

But for the United States, the real value in this report is as an advisory that it need not join the Paris Climate Accord. This report is evidence that, instead, the U.S. should just keep doing what it is doing to cut its own emissions. The U.S. is the most successful major country at mitigating its own pollution, and the U.N. shows this."









						The U.N. Says America Is Already Cutting So Much Carbon It Doesn’t Need The Paris Climate Accord
					

The UN says the U.S. is the most successful major country at cutting emissions even after leaving the Paris Climate Accord.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## happy9 (Jan 25, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> "Yesterday, The United Nations released its Emissions Gap Report 2020, an annual assessment of contributions to greenhouse gas and carbon emissions. The report has some notable information amid an array of complicated projections that may or may not come true. It claims, for instance, that “despite a brief dip in carbon dioxide emissions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, the world is still heading for a temperature rise.”
> 
> But for the United States, the real value in this report is as an advisory that it need not join the Paris Climate Accord. This report is evidence that, instead, the U.S. should just keep doing what it is doing to cut its own emissions. The U.S. is the most successful major country at mitigating its own pollution, and the U.N. shows this."
> 
> ...


The UN (and others) can now go back to lining their pockets with millions of US dollars.  BOHICA


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> That is, 8 to 12 weeks unless we are all morons and start having dinner parties.  Add some extra time if we all throw out our masks and visit friends indoors again.


Do you think it's o.k. to do that if: a) you have been fully vaccinated, or b) you have already had COVID?


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Do you think it's o.k. to do that if: a) you have been fully vaccinated, or b) you have already had COVID?


b).   I don’t know the re-infection rates well enough to say for sure.  I’m not sure anyone does.  The Louisiana and Arizona curves make me suspect second infections are kind of common.  Both states show multiple peaks, a few months apart.  That’s exactly what I’d expect if recovered people can still transmit once their immunity weakens.   If second infections are common, then a post-covid dinner party is still a bad idea.

a). if everyone attending has been vaccinated, it’s probably safer.  That one has at least been studied more thoroughly.  Out of politeness, I’d still say that able bodied people should still socialize outside with the rest of us, even if they have been vaccinated.  I don’t was to see compliance fall because those with early vaccines start setting a bad example.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 25, 2021)

EOTL said:


> Apparently it’s fair game to mock people’s appearances, no apology necessary. So let’s do this thing.
> 
> View attachment 10000


At least she wasn’t a token appointment to her job because she fit the .002 percent of the population.  And, if I’m not mistaken, she’s actually a female wearing eyeshadow and a dress.


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 25, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did we.


I doubt you did.  CNN (China News Network) limits what you know.


----------



## EOTL (Jan 25, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> At least she wasn’t a token appointment to her job because she fit the .002 percent of the population.  And, if I’m not mistaken, she’s actually a female wearing eyeshadow and a dress.


You can put lipstick on a pig like Huckasans, but she’s still gonna eat scraps off the floor and stick her nose up the Mango Magat’s Depends if you let her.

And by the way, any grad of Ouachita Baptist University, whatever the hell that is, is a token god person appointee.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 25, 2021)

Scott m Shurson said:


> I doubt you did.  CNN (China News Network) limits what you know.


Just the facts ma’am!


----------



## happy9 (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> b).   I don’t know the re-infection rates well enough to say for sure.  I’m not sure anyone does.  The Louisiana and Arizona curves make me suspect second infections are kind of common.  Both states show multiple peaks, a few months apart.  That’s exactly what I’d expect if recovered people can still transmit once their immunity weakens.   If second infections are common, then a post-covid dinner party is still a bad idea.
> 
> a). if everyone attending has been vaccinated, it’s probably safer.  That one has at least been studied more thoroughly.  Out of politeness, I’d still say that able bodied people should still socialize outside with the rest of us, even if they have been vaccinated.  I don’t was to see compliance fall because those with early vaccines start setting a bad example.


Is it possible for AZ's second spike to be caused by snowbirds?  Looks timely to me.  They usually show up around OCT.  They don't come alone, many bring immediate family for a short while.  Snow birds of all colors - Upper Midwest, Midwest, Plains states.  Their kids and grandkids help them move in, stay a week or so, play golf, eat out on patios, eat inside, etc....then they leave.

AZ is now trending down.  In terms of ICU capacity, the second wave didn't impact any differently than the 1st wave - ICU bed capacity hovered between 90-92%.  The big difference between the two was the many procedures were cancelled during the summer surge.  this time around hospitals didn't cut as many procedures.  They were able to manage.  Razor thin margins with staffing but they have seemed to pull it off.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 25, 2021)

"In executive order signed by Joe Biden last week may force Americans to fully fund programs in San Francisco and other cities that provide housing for the homeless.
San Francisco reportedly spends between $15 million to $18 million per month to house more than 2,200 people in about 25 lodging establishments--some of them luxury hotels."

Now if SF wants to put them up in hotels have at it. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for it. 
By the way look at the monthly spend and the estimated people they are paying for. 

Lets just use 16.5 mil a month or 198 million a year is what SF is spending. *Based on 2200 people that breaks down to 90k per person.* 

That sounds rather inefficient no?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

Pelosis HR1 would federalize federal election rules and restrict what the states could do. No signatures for absentee ballot, no voter id, ballot harvesting ok. If this happens (doubt it will) the rs will walk away from elections as being legitimate.  Tucker has a piece on this tonight. 

It’s the rubicon.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Pelosis HR1 would federalize federal election rules and restrict what the states could do. No signatures for absentee ballot, no voter id, ballot harvesting ok. If this happens (doubt it will) the rs will walk away from elections as being legitimate.  Tucker has a piece on this tonight.
> 
> It’s the rubicon.


No more war analogies for politics, please.

Using that kind of language is irresponsible.  It is unfortunate, but some people actually take it literally.  Three weeks ago, political war analogies killed six people.

Dial it way back.  This is not war.  No rubicon was crossed.  It is not time to fight.  These are not cartridge box questions.

It is time for civilized adults to act like civilized adults.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> No more war analogies for politics, please.
> 
> Using that kind of language is irresponsible.  It is unfortunate, but some people actually take it literally.  Three weeks ago, political war analogies killed six people.
> 
> ...


Not trying to inflame here.  I disagree with the bill, but it's the bill itself which is doing the inflaming.  It will shatter any R confidence in the election system.  If we don't have confidence in the election system, where does it go from there?  Sounds to me like you are making a prediction as well and connecting that logical loop.

My message is simple: if HR1 were to pass it would destroy whatever confidence the Rs have left in the election system.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Pelosis HR1 would federalize federal election rules and restrict what the states could do. No signatures for absentee ballot, no voter id, ballot harvesting ok. If this happens (doubt it will) the rs will walk away from elections as being legitimate.  Tucker has a piece on this tonight.
> 
> It’s the rubicon.


This one?  

"To expand Americans’ access to the ballot box, reduce the influence of big money in politics, strengthen ethics rules for public servants, and implement other anti-corruption measures for the purpose of fortifying our democracy, and for other purposes."



			https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1/text#toc-H0C72CA940E684A0986583236950CC71E
		


Do you think Tucker has read it?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> This one?
> 
> "To expand Americans’ access to the ballot box, reduce the influence of big money in politics, strengthen ethics rules for public servants, and implement other anti-corruption measures for the purpose of fortifying our democracy, and for other purposes."
> 
> ...


Yes he has.  It's the most dangerous piece of legislation yet written and if passed (it won't) it will end the Republic.  Predictive, not advocacy.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> No more war analogies for politics, please.
> 
> Using that kind of language is irresponsible.  It is unfortunate, but some people actually take it literally.  Three weeks ago, political war analogies killed six people.
> 
> ...


The analogy fails because in Caesar's time crossing the Rubicin with an army was one of the acts defined as treason.  The wingnuts haze already committed that crime when they crossed the "Rubicon" at the gates of the Capitol.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yes he has.  It's the most dangerous piece of legislation yet written and if passed (it won't) it will end the Republic.  Predictive, not advocacy.


I can see why the Republicans fear it -- it fights back against the Citizen's United big-money atrocity and sets up uniform redistricting panels in every state.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not trying to inflame here.  I disagree with the bill, but it's the bill itself which is doing the inflaming.  It will shatter any R confidence in the election system.  If we don't have confidence in the election system, where does it go from there?  Sounds to me like you are making a prediction as well and connecting that logical loop.
> 
> My message is simple: if HR1 were to pass it would destroy whatever confidence the Rs have left in the election system.


Nope.  The war analogy was yours.  You did the inflaming.  

Stop it.  No more "civil war is coming" garbage.  

Time to act like an adult.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not trying to inflame here.  I disagree with the bill, but it's the bill itself which is doing the inflaming.  It will shatter any R confidence in the election system.  If we don't have confidence in the election system, where does it go from there?  Sounds to me like you are making a prediction as well and connecting that logical loop.
> 
> My message is simple: if HR1 were to pass it would destroy whatever confidence the Rs have left in the election system.


Nonsense.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Nonsense.


"You've done it again, Magoo, my dear old chap!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Nope.  The war analogy was yours.  You did the inflaming.
> 
> Stop it.  No more "civil war is coming" garbage.
> 
> Time to act like an adult.


You really don't like hearing the bad news, huh?  You gonna put your head in the sand on this too like you did with California's restrictions and masks will contain COVID?

Yeah, it's coming if things continue the way they've been going.  You think a mob seizing the Capitol would have convinced you of the seriousness of the situation, not to mention the ongoing military presence in Washington.

They said the same thing about the people who warned WWII was coming.  "Oh no, that Hitler's a nice man.  He just wants to unite all the Germans in one country.  Nothing more will happen when he takes Austria."

Time to grow up and face the reality, or a nasty surprise will be lurking for you a couple years down the road.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> I can see why the Republicans fear it -- it fights back against the Citizen's United big-money atrocity and sets up uniform redistricting panels in every state.


It also makes everywhere pretty much Pennsylvania in the last elections....

The irony of Citizen's United, BTW, is that big money is now on the D's side.  Who could have seen that coming, huh?


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You really don't like hearing the bad news, huh?  You gonna put your head in the sand on this too like you did with California's restrictions and masks will contain COVID?
> 
> Yeah, it's coming if things continue the way they've been going.  You think a mob seizing the Capitol would have convinced you of the seriousness of the situation, not to mention the ongoing military presence in Washington.
> 
> ...


Arguing against a bad law is fine.

Can you do that without call to arms?  No Hitler references, no military analogies, no warnings that we all will be sent to re-education camps.

Just a calm explanation why this law or that law is a bad idea.

You know, discussing ideas like adults.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Arguing against a bad law is fine.
> 
> Can you do that without call to arms?  No Hitler references, no military analogies, no warnings that we all will be sent to re-education camps.
> 
> ...


Why is your impetus always to censor?  You really have a tyrannical streak in you.

I'm not calling anybody to arms.  I'm warning about a very dangerous situation (the same way I did before the Capitol and COVID BTW).

Why is it you always have a tendency to get nasty whenever you hear something you really don't like? Most of the time you are really mellow, cool and I love your opinions, but then you get in this mode and it's bad dad again.  "LALALALA....I don't want to hear it......LALALALA.....don't say it."

Adults, BTW, don't tell other adults how to say things because they think they know better.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You really don't like hearing the bad news, huh?  You gonna put your head in the sand on this too like you did with California's restrictions and masks will contain COVID?
> 
> Yeah, it's coming if things continue the way they've been going.  You think a mob seizing the Capitol would have convinced you of the seriousness of the situation, not to mention the ongoing military presence in Washington.
> 
> ...


Coocoo.

You're really outdoing yourself tonight.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Coocoo.
> 
> You're really outdoing yourself tonight.


"You've done it again, old bean Magoo!"


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It also makes everywhere pretty much Pennsylvania in the last elections....
> 
> The irony of Citizen's United, BTW, is that big money is now on the D's side.  Who could have seen that coming, huh?


You will have to explain the Pennsylvania reference -- we can't read your mind.

Unregulated big money in politics is an atrocity either way.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> You will have to explain the Pennsylvania reference -- we can't read your mind.


No thanks.  If it's not self-evident to you why that's an issue already, my explanation isn't going to influence you one way or another.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Why is your impetus always to censor?  You really have a tyrannical streak in you.
> 
> I'm not calling anybody to arms.  I'm warning about a very dangerous situation (the same way I did before the Capitol and COVID BTW).
> 
> ...


Suggesting you act like an adult is censoring?

The real weakness in your juvenile outburst is that everyone can read the Bill on their own and don't have to depend on what someone told them how Tucker is shading it.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No thanks.  If it's not self-evident to you why that's an issue already, my explanation isn't going to influence you one way or another.


That evasive habit of yours always makes your arguments look weak.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> That evasive habit of yours always makes your arguments look weak.


Why do I care? This isn't a contest.  It's not even an argument, but a prediction.  Believe my warning, or not (same as COVID.....wasn't you but someone told me "naw, they'll never cancel MIC...too much money at stake").

I only know I can never beat in you in a cuteness contest.  Your little yellow car and that chicken on your head are just too priceless.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Suggesting you act like an adult is censoring?
> 
> The real weakness in your juvenile outburst is that everyone can read the Bill on their own and don't have to depend on what someone told them how Tucker is shading it.


Naw, it's the don't say it please which is dad's tendency to censor.  Same way he didn't think negative mask discussion was useful.

Hey people should read the bill....on that we agree.....the more people that read it the better.  I'd urge them to read it.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Why is your impetus always to censor?  You really have a tyrannical streak in you.
> 
> I'm not calling anybody to arms.  I'm warning about a very dangerous situation (the same way I did before the Capitol and COVID BTW).
> 
> ...


It is a wink and a nod exhortation, and a very old trick.  

Don't encourage violence.  Just say that things are bad and violence is coming.  Use words like "people will be very angry.  They'll fight.".  Normalize violence without ever quite endorsing it.  That way, when violence comes, you can pretend you never encouraged it.

But I like my non violent world.  Therefore, when you or EOTL use this tactic, I am going to call each of you on your respective bullshit.

Peace.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Naw, it's the don't say it please which is dad's tendency to censor.  Same way he didn't think negative mask discussion was useful.
> 
> Hey people should read the bill....on that we agree.....the more people that read it the better.  I'd urge them to read it.


I will assume you have read the bill, then.  Where is the part about "No signatures for absentee ballot"?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> It is a wink and a nod exhortation, and a very old trick.
> 
> Don't encourage violence.  Just say that things are bad and violence is coming.  Use words like "people will be very angry.  They'll fight.".  Normalize violence without ever quite endorsing it.  That way, when violence comes, you can pretend you never encouraged it.
> 
> ...


 You're implying bad faith implications on something which I'm raising a concern about.  Your BS tactic is the same thing the appeasers did before WWII and later they had blood on their hands because they weren't ready.  I'm calling you out now on your tyrannical tendencies to censor and bad faith interpretations of my motives, not to mention your arrogant condescending attitude that isn't "adult" at all, but rather a teacher who thinks he's lecturing students.  Compare our two track records....everyone knows you've been wrong about everything having to do with COVID.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You're implying bad faith implications on something which I'm raising a concern about.  Your BS tactic is the same thing the appeasers did before WWII and later they had blood on their hands because they weren't ready.  I'm calling you out now on your tyrannical tendencies to censor and bad faith interpretations of my motives, not to mention your arrogant condescending attitude that isn't "adult" at all, but rather a teacher who thinks he's lecturing students.  Compare our two track records....everyone knows you've been wrong about everything having to do with COVID.


Nonsense.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Nonsense.


"Oh Magoo you've done it again."


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> I will assume you have read the bill, then.  Where is the part about "No signatures for absentee ballot"?


It's in 1621.  Signatures are permitted but only on certain due process conditions.  The conditions are so severe however, and the lawsuits it opens up for discounted ballots and challenging state procedures, that the end result will be no signature verification for absentee ballots


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You're implying bad faith implications on something which I'm raising a concern about.  Your BS tactic is the same thing the appeasers did before WWII and later they had blood on their hands because they weren't ready.  I'm calling you out now on your tyrannical tendencies to censor and bad faith interpretations of my motives, not to mention your arrogant condescending attitude that isn't "adult" at all, but rather a teacher who thinks he's lecturing students.  Compare our two track records....everyone knows you've been wrong about everything having to do with COVID.


And there is the second Hitler reference.  

As always, a Hitler reference is a sign that the rest of the argument is not worth listening to.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's in 1621.  Signatures are permitted but only on certain due process conditions.  The conditions are so severe however, and the lawsuits it opens up for discounted ballots and challenging state procedures, that the end result will be no signature verification for absentee ballots


Much better.

Logical, specific, on target, and no Hitler reference.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> And there is the second Hitler reference.
> 
> As always, a Hitler reference is a sign that the rest of the argument is not worth listening to.


So no Caesar reference, no Hitler references.  How about a Catherine the Great reference?  What of Catherine had she put her fingers in her ears and not listened that her husband was about to throw her in prison?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Much better.
> 
> Logical, specific, on target, and no Hitler reference.


Thanks teach.  Like not getting my paper back with red circles.  Can you be any more condescending?

Seriously, I've made a sincere effort recently to treat you with civility and respect.  Now you go off the rails again?  What's with you?  You are smart guy and better than this.  Better than the rude, nasty condescending guy that shows up from time to time.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's in 1621.  Signatures are permitted but only on certain due process conditions.  The conditions are so severe however, and the lawsuits it opens up for discounted ballots and challenging state procedures, that the end result will be no signature verification for absentee ballots


Your analysis does not match the actual wording of the Bill.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Your analysis does not match the actual wording of the Bill.


I'm telling you what the effect is, at least in my legal opinion.  You are welcome to disagree.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm telling you what the effect is, at least in my legal opinion.  You are welcome to disagree.


Your "legal opinion" is at odds with the actual words of the Bill.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Your "legal opinion" is at odds with the actual words of the Bill.


No it's not.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Thanks teach.  Like not getting my paper back with red circles.  Can you be any more condescending?
> 
> Seriously, I've made a sincere effort recently to treat you with civility and respect.  Now you go off the rails again?  What's with you?  You are smart guy and better than this.  Better than the rude, nasty condescending guy that shows up from time to time.


I was completely serious when I said I found certain language to be encouraging more divisiveness and violence.

We don't need more of that.  This last year has been awful on both sides.

Chances are, I probably agree with you on HR1.

But there is a way to express it, and it does not include violent imagery.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> I was completely serious when I said I found certain language to be encouraging more divisiveness and violence.
> 
> We don't need more of that.  This last year has been awful on both sides.
> 
> ...


But that's the nature of a warning.  If we continue to go down this road (by the actions of BOTH political parties), there's going to be bad things happen.  We have to be very clear about what the consequences are if we stumble into it, and ignoring that reality isn't doing anyone any favors....it only makes an accidental trigger even more likely because no one is ready for it (just like no one was ready for what happened at the Capitol because they didn't think it could happen).  I'm just approaching this like an adult, and treating you as one, by saying "look this is what's at stake here" instead of a child and saying "let's shield you from the harsh realities of the world".

I wish you would be honest with yourself that there are certain things you don't like to look at.  This isn't the first time you've done this.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No it's not.


Show me.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I wish you would be honest with yourself that there are certain things you don't like to look at.  This isn't the first time you've done this.


Does that include your offhand reference to Pennsylvania?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Show me.


This discussion, to make sense and not have you get lost again (you came awful close to running into that roller coaster).  When the pandemic is over I'm happy to meet with you and give you one.  My fee for first year is $150K.  We will begin with the hairy hand.  I'm sure dad will be very jealous because I'll get to hand out a grade to you.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> But that's the nature of a warning.  If we continue to go down this road (by the actions of BOTH political parties), there's going to be bad things happen.  We have to be very clear about what the consequences are if we stumble into it, and ignoring that reality isn't doing anyone any favors....it only makes an accidental trigger even more likely because no one is ready for it (just like no one was ready for what happened at the Capitol because they didn't think it could happen).  I'm just approaching this like an adult, and treating you as one, by saying "look this is what's at stake here" instead of a child and saying "let's shield you from the harsh realities of the world".
> 
> I wish you would be honest with yourself that there are certain things you don't like to look at.  This isn't the first time you've done this.


Here's an example of the Rs getting hoisted on their own petards with norm smashing.  Norm smashing is not good.  It undermines the pillars supporting the Republic.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353911738744393728


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> This discussion, to make sense and not have you get lost again (you came awful close to running into that roller coaster).  When the pandemic is over I'm happy to meet with you and give you one.  My fee for first year is $150K.  We will begin with the hairy hand.  I'm sure dad will be very jealous because I'll get to hand out a grade to you.


Bullshit evasion.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Bullshit evasion.


I gave you the summary.  You're the one that wants the freebie (or more likely get me to waste my time since nothing I can ever say will ever convince you).

That's the fundamental distinction, BTW, of my distinction between dad and you.  I at least respect him.  You, not so much...which is a shame because you aren't a dumb dumb and occasionally have something interesting and of relevance to say.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I gave you the summary.  You're the one that wants the freebie (or more likely get me to waste my time since nothing I can ever say will ever convince you).
> 
> That's the fundamental distinction, BTW, of my distinction between dad and you.  I at least respect him.  You, not so much...which is a shame because you aren't a dumb dumb and occasionally have something interesting and of relevance to say.


You gave an opinion.  When I pointed out that your opinion is not supported by the words in the Bill, you got evasive.

Here is my opinion -- after I pointed out your error, you took the time to read the relevant sections of the Bill (and not just some wingnut fantasy about the Bill) and realized your error.  From that point on, you became evasive.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> You gave an opinion.  When I pointed out that your opinion is not supported by the words in the Bill, you got evasive.
> 
> Here is my opinion -- after I pointed out your error, you took the time to read the relevant sections of the Bill (and not just some wingnut fantasy about the Bill) and realized your error.  From that point on, you became evasive.


No I just don't want to go down another rabbit hole with you.  It's not worth it.  

Let's review the original point.  HR1 is divisive and will destroy what remains of Republican faith in elections (which dad extrapolated to more violence).

The only thing you need to understand that is to watch the tucker carlson interpretation (because the rest is irrelevant unless you can advance an alternate interpretation of how the Rs will react to it),  It's here.

If you paid more attention to the road, you'd go into fewer roller coasters


----------



## dad4 (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> But that's the nature of a warning.  If we continue to go down this road (by the actions of BOTH political parties), there's going to be bad things happen.  We have to be very clear about what the consequences are if we stumble into it, and ignoring that reality isn't doing anyone any favors....it only makes an accidental trigger even more likely because no one is ready for it (just like no one was ready for what happened at the Capitol because they didn't think it could happen).  I'm just approaching this like an adult, and treating you as one, by saying "look this is what's at stake here" instead of a child and saying "let's shield you from the harsh realities of the world".
> 
> I wish you would be honest with yourself that there are certain things you don't like to look at.  This isn't the first time you've done this.


There is a difference between a warning and encouragement.

You don’t need to hint at agreement with the fanatics if you’re providing a warning.  Espola caught one of them when he asked you about the Penn comment.  

It’s not necessary.  If you’re providing a centrist warning against extremism, you can do it without hinting at lunatic theories of a stolen election.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No I just don't want to go down another rabbit hole with you.  It's not worth it.
> 
> Let's review the original point.  HR1 is divisive and will destroy what remains of Republican faith in elections (which dad extrapolated to more violence).
> 
> ...


To your credit, your opinion is less coocoo than Tucker's.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

dad4 said:


> There is a difference between a warning and encouragement.
> 
> You don’t need to hint at agreement with the fanatics if you’re providing a warning.  Espola caught one of them when he asked you about the Penn comment.
> 
> It’s not necessary.  If you’re providing a centrist warning against extremism, you can do it without hinting at lunatic theories of a stolen election.


I've made the Penn point before.  There's a difference between free and fair.  There's a distinction between the election was stolen: we know there was fraud but it's never been proven there was fraud in sufficient numbers to overturn the election.  But that doesn't mean the Rs regard it as "fair".  There was plenty in Pennsylvania for the Rs to not consider fair including the lack of signature verification, the various changes in the rules and how they went about, and the mass unsolicited balloting.  There's more for the Rs to complain about Pennsylvania beyond that it was stolen, and that's just you not looking critically at the arguments raised by Hawley and Cruz about Pennsylvania and just dismissing them.  Solidifying this system (which the Rs found so objectionable and is almost the direct opposite of the reform the Rs want for ballot security) just blows up the election system.

You don't like the history analogy so here's a soccer one.  Everything in the game seems according to the rule.  There's suspicion some of the players (who are awfully tall) may not have been legit, we know a couple of them were brought down from the A team, but the way that ref was calling it was in no way fair.  Do it one game, o.k. everyone still wants to play...sometimes the call is not going to go your way.  Do it repeatedly, fewer people will want to play.  Memorialize it so that the ref calls it every time like you want it called, they are just going to walk away and form their own splinter league.

Soccer analogies are permissible right?  Not too violent for you?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> To your credit, your opinion is less coocoo than Tucker's.


Coming from you, I actually take that as an insult.

"Oh Magoo, you've done it again by Jove!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've made the Penn point before.  There's a difference between free and fair.  There's a distinction between the election was stolen: we know there was fraud but it's never been proven there was fraud in sufficient numbers to overturn the election.  But that doesn't mean the Rs regard it as "fair".  There was plenty in Pennsylvania for the Rs to not consider fair including the lack of signature verification, the various changes in the rules and how they went about, and the mass unsolicited balloting.  There's more for the Rs to complain about Pennsylvania beyond that it was stolen, and that's just you not looking critically at the arguments raised by Hawley and Cruz about Pennsylvania and just dismissing them.  Solidifying this system (which the Rs found so objectionable and is almost the direct opposite of the reform the Rs want for ballot security) just blows up the election system.
> 
> You don't like the history analogy so here's a soccer one.  Everything in the game seems according to the rule.  There's suspicion some of the players (who are awfully tall) may not have been legit, we know a couple of them were brought down from the A team, but the way that ref was calling it was in no way fair.  Do it one game, o.k. everyone still wants to play...sometimes the call is not going to go your way.  Do it repeatedly, fewer people will want to play.  Memorialize it so that the ref calls it every time like you want it called, they are just going to walk away and form their own splinter league.
> 
> Soccer analogies are permissible right?  Not too violent for you?


p.s. I think in the ideal both sides need to sit down and do a bipartisan committee on election reform and security.  I don't see though any chance of agreement.  The Rs want voter verification (prove who you are), limited mail in ballots for only certain circumstances (to preclude avoiding the verification issue), states drawing up the districts, are opposed to ballot harvesting, and generally no automatic enrollment.  The Ds want to furnish a ballot to anyone who might possibly be a voter, limited voter identification (if any), wide mail in ballot options, federalizing election oversight, are generally o.k. or neutral to ballot harvesting and support automatic enrollment.  The positions are just too disparate so I don't think such a commission could ever get results.  That leaves 3 options on the table: the status quo (fighting elections out state by state), a peaceful divorce due to irreconcilable differences, the entire Republic falls apart.  There's nothing more fundamental to the existence of the Republic than how elections are conducted, and it requires a buy in from both sides to work, or the entire thing just collapses.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've made the Penn point before.  There's a difference between free and fair.  There's a distinction between the election was stolen: we know there was fraud but it's never been proven there was fraud in sufficient numbers to overturn the election.  But that doesn't mean the Rs regard it as "fair".  There was plenty in Pennsylvania for the Rs to not consider fair including the lack of signature verification, the various changes in the rules and how they went about, and the mass unsolicited balloting.  There's more for the Rs to complain about Pennsylvania beyond that it was stolen, and that's just you not looking critically at the arguments raised by Hawley and Cruz about Pennsylvania and just dismissing them.  Solidifying this system (which the Rs found so objectionable and is almost the direct opposite of the reform the Rs want for ballot security) just blows up the election system.
> 
> You don't like the history analogy so here's a soccer one.  Everything in the game seems according to the rule.  There's suspicion some of the players (who are awfully tall) may not have been legit, we know a couple of them were brought down from the A team, but the way that ref was calling it was in no way fair.  Do it one game, o.k. everyone still wants to play...sometimes the call is not going to go your way.  Do it repeatedly, fewer people will want to play.  Memorialize it so that the ref calls it every time like you want it called, they are just going to walk away and form their own splinter league.
> 
> Soccer analogies are permissible right?  Not too violent for you?


What fraud do we know of in Pennsylvania?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> What fraud do we know of in Pennsylvania?


We've had this discussion before.  You can't seriously be arguing there was no fraud in Pennsylvania at all, not a single instance.  Even the Ds in Congress have admitted no election is perfect.  Again, you are missing forest through the trees.  It could very well be de minimis for all we know.









						Trump Campaign Shows Proof: Dead People Voted in Pennsylvania Election
					

PHILADELPHIA, PA -  Despite the mainstream media's attempt to coverup voter fraud and tech giants Facebook and Twitter squelching the truth on




					www.shorenewsnetwork.com


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> We've had this discussion before.  You can't seriously be arguing there was no fraud in Pennsylvania at all, not a single instance.  Even the Ds in Congress have admitted no election is perfect.  Again, you are missing forest through the trees.  It could very well be de minimis for all we know.


Inadvertent mistakes are not fraud.

All I am aware of is a bunch of whiny losers with no proof of anything.


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Inadvertent mistakes are not fraud.
> 
> All I am aware of is a bunch of whiny losers with no proof of anything.











						Fact-checking false claims about Pennsylvania’s presidential election by Trump and his allies
					

President Donald Trump’s relentless and false attacks on the results in Pennsylvania as the product of widespread fraud are completely disconnected from reality.




					www.inquirer.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Inadvertent mistakes are not fraud.
> 
> All I am aware of is a bunch of whiny losers with no proof of anything.


"Inadvertent mistakes"....."Oh Magoo, you've outdone yourself this time!"


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> "Inadvertent mistakes"....."Oh Magoo, you've outdone yourself this time!"


It appears you have nothing concrete.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> It appears you have nothing concrete.


What do you mean by concrete?  You want a conviction?  A charge?  There actually is one....it was a Trump voter who double voted for his dead mom.

But once again, you've run your cute little car off the road and have gone down another rabbit hole.  Don't care if it was the 1 Trump voter or more....there's no proof there was fraud in levels sufficient to overturn the election.  That might make it legal, but it doesn't make it "fair".


----------



## espola (Jan 25, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What do you mean by concrete?  You want a conviction?  A charge?  There actually is one....it was a Trump voter who double voted for his dead mom.
> 
> But once again, you've run your cute little car off the road and have gone down another rabbit hole.  Don't care if it was the 1 Trump voter or more....there's no proof there was fraud in levels sufficient to overturn the election.  That might make it legal, but it doesn't make it "fair".


It's telling (in a poker sense of "telling") when you signal the emptiness of your arguments with your Magoo taunts.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 25, 2021)

espola said:


> It's telling (in a poker sense of "telling") when you signal the emptiness of your arguments with your Magoo taunts.


Naw,, it just means you've gone deeper down the rabbit hole and are more lost.  If you watch the cartoon series, even he was capable of moments of brilliance...the sad thing is he was just getting continuous lost and was incapable of admitting it to himself because he was too stubborn.  It really is the perfect analogy for you.  Someone else made it first, so can't take full credit for it.


----------



## espola (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Naw,, it just means you've gone deeper down the rabbit hole and are more lost.  If you watch the cartoon series, even he was capable of moments of brilliance...the sad thing is he was just getting continuous lost and was incapable of admitting it to himself because he was too stubborn.  It really is the perfect analogy for you.  Someone else made it first, so can't take full credit for it.


q.e.d.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


"Oh Magoo, brilliant as usual"


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)




----------



## dad4 (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> We've had this discussion before.  You can't seriously be arguing there was no fraud in Pennsylvania at all, not a single instance.  Even the Ds in Congress have admitted no election is perfect.  Again, you are missing forest through the trees.  It could very well be de minimis for all we know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You want to be taken seriously when you quote Shore News Network?

They can’t even write a headline.  What self respecting newspaper uses the word “proof” in a headline about politics?   In a high school journalism class, they would mark it all up in red and hand it back to you.

Go back to a decent conservative rag.  WSJ maybe.  Someone with a style sheet and standards for what they do and do not claim in the newsroom.

Yes, trash news brings out my condescension in full force.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not trying to inflame here.  I disagree with the bill, but it's the bill itself which is doing the inflaming.  It will shatter any R confidence in the election system.  If we don't have confidence in the election system, where does it go from there?  Sounds to me like you are making a prediction as well and connecting that logical loop.
> 
> My message is simple: if HR1 were to pass it would destroy whatever confidence the Rs have left in the election system.


It will. 

Because what is being proposed is a gutting of any semblance of verification of voters. 

It makes cheating easy. 

Take ballot harvesting. Having people go around and collect and help people fill out ballots makes it too easy to compromise those ballets. If there is money and power involved...there will always be a big incentive to cheat. 

When one says...well that wont affect a national election. Just think back to FL in 2000. The state was won with less than 600 votes. 

Now think about local elections where the margins for many races is even less. 

Vote by mail? After the 2k election there was a commission put together of high ranking Ds and Rs. They concluded mail in voting is generally a bad idea because it is so easy to manipulate. 

Ask yourself this. Why would there be a push to NOT identify people by ID when they vote? Why would we NOT want to know if a person voting is the actual registered voter. 

And so on. 

All the changes that were done for the recent election and what are being proposed loosen actual oversight on what is going on.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The irony of Citizen's United, BTW, is that big money is now on the D's side. Who could have seen that coming, huh?


Funny how that works.









						‘Dark Money’ Helped Pave Joe Biden’s Path to the White House
					

President Joe Biden benefited from a record-breaking amount of donations from anonymous donors to outside groups backing him, meaning the public will never have a full accounting of who helped him win the White House.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

Not sure why the link says Are you a robot. 

Their story however is about the fact that Biden took in HUGE sums of dark money. The kind of money Ds pretend to be worried about. 









						‘Dark Money’ Helped Pave Joe Biden’s Path to the White House
					

President Joe Biden benefited from a record-breaking amount of donations from anonymous donors to outside groups backing him, meaning the public will never have a full accounting of who helped him win the White House.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

You know they need to get rid of stuff like this BEFORE elections.

How do ballots that get mailed in arrive without a postmark anyway? 

By the way speaking of the same we saw interesting stuff in PA. Ballots mailed out and returned on the same day? How is that possible? Ballots mailed out and received the very next day? How is that possible? 

There are all kinds of things election wise that have to be fixed in order to have elections that everyone believes is done properly. 

"The Virginia Board of Elections rule allowing officials to count ballots t*hat arrived without a postmark* up to three days after the election was illegal, a state judge ruled.


Virginia Circuit Court Judge William Eldridge ruled the state’s late mail-in ballot law violated state statute and permanently banned the law in future Virginia elections, the Public Interest Legal Foundation (PILF) announced Monday. PILF sued the state’s board of elections in October on behalf of Thomas Reed, a Frederick County, Virginia election official."









						Virginia Rule Allowing Late Ballots Missing Postmark Was Illegal, Court Rules
					

The Virginia Board of Elections rule allowing officials to count ballots that arrived without a postmark up to three days after the election was illegal.




					dailycaller.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> You want to be taken seriously when you quote Shore News Network?
> 
> They can’t even write a headline.  What self respecting newspaper uses the word “proof” in a headline about politics?   In a high school journalism class, they would mark it all up in red and hand it back to you.
> 
> ...


I unlike you know that knowledge can come from the most obscure places.   In the last 2 weeks, I have also quoted "The Guardian" and "The Nation".  I'm not closed minded and am open to almost all sources, particularly when mainstream sources are going out of their way to avoid reporting on the situation for fear of giving Trump's claims credence, however limited.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I unlike you know that knowledge can come from the most obscure places.   In the last 2 weeks, I have also quoted "The Guardian" and "The Nation".  I'm not closed minded and am open to almost all sources, particularly when mainstream sources are going out of their way to avoid reporting on the situation for fear of giving Trump's claims credence, however limited.


p.s. I can't believe that you and espola are arguing it was a 100% perfect election, given the complete lack of signature verification in Pennsylvania, and there wasn't a single instance of fraud.  I guess now we know why you are an "N".  That's not data driven and you know that.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. I can't believe that you and espola are arguing it was a 100% perfect election, given the complete lack of signature verification in Pennsylvania, and there wasn't a single instance of fraud.  I guess now we know why you are an "N".  That's not data driven and you know that.


when did I say that it was perfect?

I do believe that the level of fraud was not close to sufficient to change the outcome.  As do the courts.

I’m doing fine with data as an N.  What’s your prediction for CA covid over the next 2 months?  My Dec prediction was decline starting early/mid Jan, resulting in first legal games in March.

Care to out a stake in the sand?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> when did I say that it was perfect?
> 
> I do believe that the level of fraud was not close to sufficient to change the outcome.  As do the courts.
> 
> ...


Then we (almost) agree.  My position is the level of fraud was likely not close to sufficiently change the outcome of the election, put given the methodology in Pennsylvania what happened in that particular state is hard to tell, particularly in the absence of any wide spread nonpartisan investigation.

My eye has been more on the data in SoCal. I predicted a peak at Christmas (I was off by 2 weeks...the peak was a couple days after New Years...my friend, though nailed it and I owe him a beer when this is over).  I agree with the decline and that we should be in a position to play by March (though I lean more towards the end).  The big unknown variable is the Johnson & Johnson vaccine and how quickly it gets approved and how much we have on hand....if all goes well it will be a game changer.

Two caveats, however.  One is the data coming out of Israel.  Despite the vast number of people who have gotten stuck (25%) have received the first shot), the numbers remain stubbornly high.  The most likely explanation is the unique behaviors of the Orthodox community, but still I'm surprised it hasn't declined faster (for whatever other reasons...new variants etc.).  It indicates the herd immunity threshold must be every high at a minimum.  

The other caveat is that this decision has always been more political than about the data.  Rumors are new modifications to the sports guidance out soon.  If true, you and VC might be playing by late March (it will also take a few weeks to gear up conditioning)....but not LA County.  The question, though, is a political question (not a data one) and it's hard to know how Newsom (now that he's behaving like a scared cat) will jump.


----------



## dad4 (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Then we (almost) agree.  My position is the level of fraud was likely not close to sufficiently change the outcome of the election, put given the methodology in Pennsylvania what happened in that particular state is hard to tell, particularly in the absence of any wide spread nonpartisan investigation.
> 
> My eye has been more on the data in SoCal. I predicted a peak at Christmas (I was off by 2 weeks...the peak was a couple days after New Years...my friend, though nailed it and I owe him a beer when this is over).  I agree with the decline and that we should be in a position to play by March (though I lean more towards the end).  The big unknown variable is the Johnson & Johnson vaccine and how quickly it gets approved and how much we have on hand....if all goes well it will be a game changer.
> 
> ...


If you have a segregated society, you need to do your herd immunity calculations separately.  Double that if one side or the other of the split refuses vaccination or other mitigation measures.  Orthodox congregations in New York seem to fit this pattern.  I would be surprised if it were not similar in Israel.  You may have a moderate herd immunity threshhold, but a self-segregated population acting as a disease reservoir.

I still think LA will get there quickly, but for a bad reason.  You’re already at 10% confirmed infections.  For a large fraction of your social interactions, one side or the other is at least temporarily immune.  That should make your decline relatively fast.  

As always, unless people decide to be stupid.  If people decide masks are useless and indoor dining is a necessity, you will slow your recovery.


----------



## espola (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. I can't believe that you and espola are arguing it was a 100% perfect election, given the complete lack of signature verification in Pennsylvania, and there wasn't a single instance of fraud.  I guess now we know why you are an "N".  That's not data driven and you know that.


?????


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If you have a segregated society, you need to do your herd immunity calculations separately.  Double that if one side or the other of the split refuses vaccination or other mitigation measures.  Orthodox congregations in New York seem to fit this pattern.  I would be surprised if it were not similar in Israel.  You may have a moderate herd immunity threshhold, but a self-segregated population acting as a disease reservoir.
> 
> I still think LA will get there quickly, but for a bad reason.  You’re already at 10% confirmed infections.  For a large fraction of your social interactions, one side or the other is at least temporarily immune.  That should make your decline relatively fast.
> 
> As always, unless people decide to be stupid.  If people decide masks are useless and indoor dining is a necessity, you will slow your recovery.


Agreed until the final sentence.  The last will have minimum impact as there are larger drivers at work here, including the ones you point out.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

espola said:


> ?????


Me: "Look out for that turn, you're going to turn onto the roller coaster, it's headed straight for you, watch out!"
You: "Roadhog!!!"


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If you have a segregated society, you need to do your herd immunity calculations separately.  Double that if one side or the other of the split refuses vaccination or other mitigation measures.  Orthodox congregations in New York seem to fit this pattern.  I would be surprised if it were not similar in Israel.  You may have a moderate herd immunity threshhold, but a self-segregated population acting as a disease reservoir.
> 
> I still think LA will get there quickly, but for a bad reason.  You’re already at 10% confirmed infections.  For a large fraction of your social interactions, one side or the other is at least temporarily immune.  That should make your decline relatively fast.
> 
> As always, unless people decide to be stupid.  If people decide masks are useless and indoor dining is a necessity, you will slow your recovery.


Oh and I agree that LA "will get there quickly" but even then LA County may not allow play.  There's already talk that LA Schools will be restricted until at least 2022 when they can take off the EU label off the vaccines and mandate it for kids.  It's a political, not data, question.


----------



## espola (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Me: "Look out for that turn, you're going to turn onto the roller coaster, it's headed straight for you, watch out!"
> You: "Roadhog!!!"


q.e.d. (continued from yesterday)


----------



## dad4 (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh and I agree that LA "will get there quickly" but even then LA County may not allow play.  There's already talk that LA Schools will be restricted until at least 2022 when they can take off the EU label off the vaccines and mandate it for kids.  It's a political, not data, question.


If I am right about case numbers, the politics ceases to matter.  Once we hit orange and yellow, school closures become politically untenable.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If I am right about case numbers, the politics ceases to matter.  Once we hit orange and yellow, school closures become politically untenable.


Remember in some low population counties you only need a handful of cases to go from yellow to orange so an outbreak in a particular community (perhaps with low vaccine compliance) is enough to bump you back to orange.  And there (still) is no green zone.

I shy away from pure political predictions (people are emotional when it comes to politics, and don't always act rationally) but I hope you are right.  If the recall goes through and is pending I agree it will make it more politically untenable as well.  I also know though there is a significant portion of society that is not prepared to let this go and will push for double masks, schools closed, remote work, etc until it's "absolutely safe".  Some people (like my son's godmother) are just frightened out of their minds and don't want to go out until the government has assured them they will be 100% fine.  I also know we've been told we are going to be remote until fall 2021 (and possibly later dependent on schools) because the virus will still continue to circulate and until everyone's been given a crack at the vaccine you'll still get horror stories of the 40 year old cut down early.  We still, after all, get those stories with the measles despite the vaccine being available forever and the measles not mutating very quickly away from it.

The other big variable we don't know is when/if this thing is going to mutate away from maximum vaccine coverage.  If that were to happen, the vaccines and politics of it all gets very ugly very fast, even if it no longer poses as great of a risk as at the beginning of the crisis, again because of the expectations that have been set and because of the odd story of the 40 year old cut down early.  If that happens, all bets are off.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

Telling interview:

1. It's very clear Trump was in denial about what was happening early on, hoped it would magically go away, and was frustrated by Fauci's negativity
2. Fauci's pretty much a straight shooter.  It doesn't appear he has an overt axe to grind with Trump and just tells it like it is (at least how he sees it).  His final statement is telling, declining to jump into the partisan wars.
3. His arrogance and lack of an open mind are also on full display.  The words he chooses to uses when dealing with Scott Atlas like "convert"....almost like a religion you convert to.  He doesn't seem interested in dialogue with opposing views, because he can't be wrong...the other side needs to "convert" or be ignored.
4. Fauci seems to naturally be an Eeyore/Debbie Downer.  No wonder he was sidelined.  Politically it's the exact opposite message the Trump admin wanted to project and it will get him in trouble with the Biden admin (he's already had 1 run in dispelling the notion that there isn't a plan for vaccine distribution).  He's bound to be a thorn in any admin's attempt to project a rosier than reality picture of competence.
5. HIV is his white whale.  He seems still obsessed with it.  It's probably why he stood firm in the job despite his wife's advice.
6. While the interview is fascinating, he really needs to stop doing press....he's not very good at it.



			Fauci on What Working for Trump Was Really Like


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

Rand Paul's motion to declare the Senate impeachment trial is unconstitutional defeated 55-45 (Romney, Collins, Sasse, Murkowski, Toomey voting to join Ds).  However, it's very unlikely any R is going to vote to convict if they've already gone on the record saying its unconstitutional (it would please no one of their constituencies).  So this thing is going now where barring anything new being revealed.

The only thing is going to accomplish is set a precedent for later where former presidents will be routinely impeached post hoc once they've lost office, or the House will vote during office as a motion of no confidence.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

The litigation wars over the Biden EO's have begun.....









						Judge bars Biden from enforcing 100-day deportation ban
					

U.S. District Judge Drew Tipton issued a temporary restraining order sought by Texas, which sued on Friday against a Department of Homeland Security memo that instructed immigration agencies to pause most deportations.




					chicago.suntimes.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

a. Perhaps Biden isn't as mentally far gone as some of us thought.......
b. Some Trumpian behavior has been normalized
c. If Trump had done this, CNN would be screaming conduct unbecoming 24/7


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354149156001034240


----------



## espola (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Rand Paul's motion to declare the Senate impeachment trial is unconstitutional defeated 55-45 (Romney, Collins, Sasse, Murkowski, Toomey voting to join Ds).  However, it's very unlikely any R is going to vote to convict if they've already gone on the record saying its unconstitutional (it would please no one of their constituencies).  So this thing is going now where barring anything new being revealed.
> 
> The only thing is going to accomplish is set a precedent for later where former presidents will be routinely impeached post hoc once they've lost office, or the House will vote during office as a motion of no confidence.


Do you think future Presidents will routinely send a violent mob to the Capitol?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

espola said:


> Do you think future Presidents will routinely send a violent mob to the Capitol?


I don't necessarily think the past President did.  There's no evidence Trump told people to storm the Capitol.  He told them to protest, and he told them to go home when it got out of hand.  Unless it comes forward that he had preadvanced knowledge of the intent of some to invade the Capitol, I don't know how you hold him to it.

But yes, I think given where we are, sadly, it is entirely possible that a future President does this now that the precedent has been set.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Rand Paul's motion to declare the Senate impeachment trial is unconstitutional defeated 55-45 (Romney, Collins, Sasse, Murkowski, Toomey voting to join Ds).  However, it's very unlikely any R is going to vote to convict if they've already gone on the record saying its unconstitutional (it would please no one of their constituencies).  So this thing is going now where barring anything new being revealed.
> 
> The only thing is going to accomplish is set a precedent for later where former presidents will be routinely impeached post hoc once they've lost office, or the House will vote during office as a motion of no confidence.


"As you probably know, Chief Justice Roberts has said he will not be the judge at the "Impeachment." Reason: The Constitution specifies that in impeachments of the President, the presiding judge will be the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

But Trump is not president.

So Roberts does not think he has any role to play here -- and for once, he's right.

This further underscores how unconstitutional this whole sham is.

Making it even more egregious: *That hyperpartisan leftwing Democrat Pat Leahy will instead act as the presiding "judge."* He will be both judge and juror in this sham."


----------



## espola (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I don't necessarily think the past President did.  There's no evidence Trump told people to storm the Capitol.  He told them to protest, and he told them to go home when it got out of hand.  Unless it comes forward that he had preadvanced knowledge of the intent of some to invade the Capitol, I don't know how you hold him to it.
> 
> But yes, I think given where we are, sadly, it is entirely possible that a future President does this now that the precedent has been set.


Your eyes are glued shut.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I unlike you know that knowledge can come from the most obscure places.   In the last 2 weeks, I have also quoted "The Guardian" and "The Nation".  I'm not closed minded and am open to almost all sources, particularly when mainstream sources are going out of their way to avoid reporting on the situation for fear of giving Trump's claims credence, however limited.


I am a managing editor and it pains me to say that some of the best, impartial news I've found as it pertains to politics has been from Twitter- independant journalism that's not being compensated for.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

espola said:


> Your eyes are glued shut.


I'm not the one that goes around squinting and needs the specs





__





						Amazon.com: Round Bubble Thick Scratchy Lensed Nerd Eye Glasses Fake Plastic Costume Prop : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry
					

Amazon.com: Round Bubble Thick Scratchy Lensed Nerd Eye Glasses Fake Plastic Costume Prop : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

espola said:


> Do you think future Presidents will routinely send a violent mob to the Capitol?


Where do you come up with that statement? That he sent a violent mob? Did you read/watch his speech? Seems as if you didn't.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> "As you probably know, Chief Justice Roberts has said he will not be the judge at the "Impeachment." Reason: The Constitution specifies that in impeachments of the President, the presiding judge will be the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
> 
> But Trump is not president.
> 
> ...


If the impeachment is a unconstitutional, then does that mean the DoJ and FBI should be pursuing T for the alleged crimes?

If they can't pursue him, as he was President, and Congress can't impeach, as he is no longer President, does that mean that a President is above the law, can commit any crime he/she wants and then just needs to resign to avoid justice?


----------



## watfly (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> If the impeachment is a unconstitutional, then does that mean the DoJ and FBI should be pursuing T for the alleged crimes?
> 
> If they can't pursue him, as he was President, and Congress can't impeach, as he is no longer President, does that mean that a President is above the law, can commit any crime he/she wants and then just needs to resign to avoid justice?


Yes, if he committed a crime he should be pursued for criminal conduct.  IMO, impeachment no.  It's a misuse of impeachment and divisive political theater...all form, no substance.   I will repeat this, he was impeached by American citizens on November 3, 2020.  Why make him a martyr?  Let him fade off in obscurity.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Pelosis HR1 would federalize federal election rules and restrict what the states could do. No signatures for absentee ballot, no voter id, ballot harvesting ok. If this happens (doubt it will) the rs will walk away from elections as being legitimate.  Tucker has a piece on this tonight.
> 
> It’s the rubicon.


So this has gone to committee. I assume the GOP are hard at work looking to work with it to ensure it includes all the pieces they want, their state legislatures are hard at work already apparently.

This would seem to be an outstanding opportunity to ensure Federal elections are sound and legal going forward, do you think the GOP will look to do that in the House & Senate? Alternatively, do you think they will look to work at the state level, putting different criteria in place is various states dependent on what works best locally (for them)?

A compromise bill with some of what each side wants would actually go along way to ensuring confidence in elections - but neither side would want that sadly.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> If the impeachment is a unconstitutional, then does that mean the DoJ and FBI should be pursuing T for the alleged crimes?
> 
> If they can't pursue him, as he was President, and Congress can't impeach, as he is no longer President, does that mean that a President is above the law, can commit any crime he/she wants and then just needs to resign to avoid justice?


I think you are mixing 2 things up.

Impeachment is related to removing someone from office. He is already gone. So what is the point?

What you are talking about is if he incited a riot and can the FBI investigate. That is a very different thing.

That won't go anywhere however because in his public comments/speeches did not tell people to riot. Unless there are some secret communications that come to light, he did not incite a riot.

" The only remedies in impeachment are removal from office and disqualification to hold positions of “trust or profit.” The disqualification vote can’t take place until after the removal, and you can’t “remove” someone from an office they don’t hold. What’s more if you’re impeaching the President the Chief Justice must preside. The Chief Justice isn’t presiding, so this can’t be a presidential impeachment. But if you’re not impeaching a president, and you can’t impeach a private citizen, then there’s no power to impeach Trump."


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

watfly said:


> Yes, if he committed a crime he should be pursued for criminal conduct.  IMO, impeachment no.  It's a misuse of impeachment and divisive political theater...all form, no substance.   I will repeat this, he was impeached by American citizens on November 3, 2020.  Why make him a martyr?  Let him fade off in obscurity.


I agree with that TBH, impeachment is just a side show and not a very pleasant one.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I think you are mixing 2 things up.
> 
> Impeachment is related to removing someone from office. He is already gone. So what is the point?
> 
> ...


Generally yes, but the DoJ stance has been that they do not or cannot investigate any President (for any crime). That's flawed IMO, as the standard for impeachment, i.e. high crimes etc., is different. It sets up the President as being essentially above the law (or just most laws), certainly at the moment in the partisan cesspool that is American politics as fuck knows what you'd want to have done to get 67 senators to vote to impeach you.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I agree with that TBH, impeachment is just a side show and not a very pleasant one.


Besides, the state of new york is diligently conducting their own probes/investigation of Trump and Co's finances.  He'll no longer be insulated by being president.  I'm sure the State Attorney General and others are chomping at the bit.    It may come to nothing but it's not going to be painless for trump and crew.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> So this has gone to committee. I assume the GOP are hard at work looking to work with it to ensure it includes all the pieces they want, their state legislatures are hard at work already apparently.
> 
> This would seem to be an outstanding opportunity to ensure Federal elections are sound and legal going forward, do you think the GOP will look to do that in the House & Senate? Alternatively, do you think they will look to work at the state level, putting different criteria in place is various states dependent on what works best locally (for them)?
> 
> A compromise bill with some of what each side wants would actually go along way to ensuring confidence in elections - but neither side would want that sadly.


Id love it if they could compromise but I don't think it's in the cards.  The Rs want voter identification, limited mail in ballots with checks and guarantees preferring in person, oppose early voting, want local control including redistricting, look with hostility on ballot harvesting,  and want frequent purges of the voter roles.  The Ds want limited or no voter ID, expanded mail in balloting, early voting, federal control, look neutrally or favorably on ballot harvesting, and wanted limited purges of the voter rolls.  The Rs want to make casserole, the Ds want to make soup.  I just don't see it given the issues are fundamental to outlook, not disagreements on the margins or scope.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Besides, the state of new york is diligently conducting their own probes/investigation of Trump and Co's finances.  He'll no longer be insulated by being president.  I'm sure the State Attorney General and others are chomping at the bit.    It may come to nothing but it's not going to be painless for trump and crew.


Yeah, and then there's the small matter of the $400M or so in debt coming due apparently, with various lenders exiting the stage as fast as they can.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Id love it if they could compromise but I don't think it's in the cards.  The Rs want voter identification, limited mail in ballots with checks and guarantees preferring in person, oppose early voting, want local control including redistricting, look with hostility on ballot harvesting,  and want frequent purges of the voter roles.  The Ds want limited or no voter ID, expanded mail in balloting, early voting, federal control, look neutrally or favorably on ballot harvesting, and wanted limited purges of the voter rolls.  The Rs want to make casserole, the Ds want to make soup.  I just don't see it given the issues are fundamental to outlook, not disagreements on the margins or scope.


I think there's plenty of room to compromise, and zero likelihood that there will be any.

I think the GOP's words, "Elections have consequences", and their removal of the filibuster on SCOTUS may come back to haunt them in the next couple of years. It will probably depend on the next 6 months.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I think there's plenty of room to compromise, and zero likelihood that there will be any.
> 
> I think the GOP's words, "Elections have consequences", and their removal of the filibuster on SCOTUS may come back to haunt them in the next couple of years. It will probably depend on the next 6 months.


I read your room to compromise as the rs should just cave on the big principles. As to elections have consequences I didn’t see any d movement in other big r existential issues like abortion and immigration

I’m increasing convinced our principles are just fundamentally misaligned. The best solution is to kick everything down to the state levels and fight it out there because when everything becomes existential (on the d side climate change, race equity, abortion) and people begin to hate each other a divorce is the only way out.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I read your room to compromise as the rs should just cave on the big principles. As to elections have consequences I didn’t see any d movement in other big r existential issues like abortion and immigration
> 
> I’m increasing convinced our principles are just fundamentally misaligned. The best solution is to kick everything down to the state levels and fight it out there because when everything becomes existential (on the d side climate change, race equity, abortion) and people begin to hate each other a divorce is the only way out.


No, I was talking about the election bill, compromising on that. You're talking like the GOP are paragons of virtue and have done nothing but compromise when they have control.

Politicians like cultural war issues, e.g. abortion. Politicians couldn't give a cr@p about abortion, but it allows them to pull in a group of the electorate that will ignore everything else and vote for them on that. This shouldn't be confused with actual principles ... which neither side have and which any of us can amply prove.

I think your existential stuff is on the extremes for GOP, just like the extreme stuff for the Ds. There's plenty for both parties to compromise on that would align with the majority view of the population, including abortion, common sense gun control laws, a plan to combat climate change that can be a positive for the economy etc. Most *people *would be fine with a functioning government - its the extremes on each side that jump to hyperbole and talk about *hate* and *fight* etc.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No, I was talking about the election bill, compromising on that. You're talking like the GOP are paragons of virtue and have done nothing but compromise when they have control.
> 
> Politicians like cultural war issues, e.g. abortion. Politicians couldn't give a cr@p about abortion, but it allows them to pull in a group of the electorate that will ignore everything else and vote for them on that. This shouldn't be confused with actual principles ... which neither side have and which any of us can amply prove.
> 
> I think your existential stuff is on the extremes for GOP, just like the extreme stuff for the Ds. There's plenty for both parties to compromise on that would align with the majority view of the population, including abortion, common sense gun control laws, a plan to combat climate change that can be a positive for the economy etc. Most *people *would be fine with a functioning government - its the extremes on each side that jump to hyperbole and talk about *hate* and *fight* etc.


I just think the fundamental on election reform are really different: soup and casserole.  It's easier to compromise if we all buy into the idea of soup and we are just talking the ingredients (Rs like their soup plain, Ds spicier).  But this is really fundamental and different: federal control with expanded voting and few controls v. state control with expanded controls and more limited voting.  The difference with the R politicians is that it also affects them on this (as opposed to abortion)...it's no coincidence that the Ds are pushing for expanded voting because it helps them and the Rs are pushing for more restricted because it helps them.  This is an issue too which both the bases are aligned considering that 1/3 of Ds thought the 2016 election was stolen and about 40% of Rs think 2020 it was stolen (a number which expands if you include whether 2020 was fair).  And speaking about fairness, the issue of elections also circulates with the issues of the press, money in campaigns, the tech companies and the pollsters....a "grand compromise" would resolve settling that which is daunting....immigration and abortion are actually easier than this.

And as I've stated before, I'm a Tulsi fan and she has plenty to critique both parties of....I'm not saying the GOP is a paragon of virtue....I think her critique of the parties is right on.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Pelosis HR1 would federalize federal election rules and restrict what the states could do. No signatures for absentee ballot, no voter id, ballot harvesting ok. If this happens (doubt it will) the rs will walk away from elections as being legitimate.  Tucker has a piece on this tonight.
> 
> It’s the rubicon.


Tucker is a snake, always has been. Another example of an over privileged silver spoon playing to the “base”. Isn’t that what trump wanted was to “federalize” state elections? The federal election rules are already, federalized.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tucker is a snake, always has been. Another example of an over privileged silver spoon playing to the “base”. Isn’t that what trump wanted was to “federalize” state elections? The federal election rules are already, federalized.


Yeah, but Trump just wanted to federalize them in an R vision.  That's as much of a mistake as HR1.  Leave it to the states...fight it out there.


----------



## happy9 (Jan 26, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tucker is a snake, always has been. *Another example of an over privileged silver spoon playing to the “base”. *


Isn't this endemic to the industry as a whole? Tucker, Maddow, Late Night, you name it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Arguing against a bad law is fine.
> 
> Can you do that without call to arms?  No Hitler references, no military analogies, no warnings that we all will be sent to re-education camps.
> 
> ...


It must be the way the message is communicated being echoed.


----------



## whatithink (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I just think the fundamental on election reform are really different: soup and casserole.  It's easier to compromise if we all buy into the idea of soup and we are just talking the ingredients (Rs like their soup plain, Ds spicier).  But this is really fundamental and different: federal control with expanded voting and few controls v. state control with expanded controls and more limited voting.  The difference with the R politicians is that it also affects them on this (as opposed to abortion)...it's no coincidence that the Ds are pushing for expanded voting because it helps them and the Rs are pushing for more restricted because it helps them.  This is an issue too which both the bases are aligned considering that 1/3 of Ds thought the 2016 election was stolen and about 40% of Rs think 2020 it was stolen (a number which expands if you include whether 2020 was fair).  And speaking about fairness, the issue of elections also circulates with the issues of the press, money in campaigns, the tech companies and the pollsters....a "grand compromise" would resolve settling that which is daunting....immigration and abortion are actually easier than this.
> 
> And as I've stated before, I'm a Tulsi fan and she has plenty to critique both parties of....I'm not saying the GOP is a paragon of virtue....I think her critique of the parties is right on.


The GOP have won one national/presidential election, based on number of votes, since 1988 - in 2004. I understand why they want more restrictions. Their problem is that the gap is widening and so they need the restrictions more and the gerrymandering along side it. That's not a long term strategy, but US politics is too short term. There's plenty of policies that the GOP advocate, traditional conservative policies that would appeal to a wider base, but they have too many extreme elements at the moment, IMV, to make those policies their actual central platform and message. The D's need to be careful they don't go the same way.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The GOP have won one national/presidential election, based on number of votes, since 1988 - in 2004. I understand why they want more restrictions. Their problem is that the gap is widening and so they need the restrictions more and the gerrymandering along side it. That's not a long term strategy, but US politics is too short term. There's plenty of policies that the GOP advocate, traditional conservative policies that would appeal to a wider base, but they have too many extreme elements at the moment, IMV, to make those policies their actual central platform and message. The D's need to be careful they don't go the same way.


the gap is widening misunderstands the dynamic that’s going on. The rs are moving away from being the party of corporate money and foreign wars.  The Reagan coalition has been shattered.  Obama almost built a new coalition with a permanent majority but he lost working class voters (including minority voters which we’ve noticed a shift in the 2020 election).  The d coalition by its nature is unstable: the rich, the suburbs and the poor. It works for example on immigration (cheap labor for the rich in construction and services, recent immigrants get legalization and bringing relatives over, Latino groups expand power). It works less when say groups begin to conflict (like college admissions of Asian demands v African Americans and Latinos).  A realignment is very much in play and is based on 3 pillars: election rules (who votes which is why it’s existential), a beloved leader capable of inspiring broad swaths and growing the coalition (Trump and Biden aint it; neither Harris or Pence) and policies which can shape the coalition and which may very well be shaped by outside events such as the pandemic riots or foreign wars.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

Not a sign of a healthy working democracy.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354119023928242176


----------



## dad4 (Jan 26, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not a sign of a healthy working democracy.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354119023928242176


You expected him to play "Mother, may I?" with Mitch?

Didn't seem likely.

I do agree something has been lost.   But I can't blame just one side.   

We would be much better off had there been a Justice Bork and a Justice Garland.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 26, 2021)

dad4 said:


> You expected him to play "Mother, may I?" with Mitch?
> 
> Didn't seem likely.
> 
> ...


Once again we don’t really disagree (just in tenor and tone mostly).  I also don’t think there’s very much of unity here though I agree unity is a 2 way street.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Once again we don’t really disagree (just in tenor and tone mostly).  I also don’t think there’s very much of unity here though I agree unity is a 2 way street.


Does unity mean forgetting the insurrection and quickly moving on?


----------



## whatithink (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> the gap is widening misunderstands the dynamic that’s going on. The rs are moving away from being the party of corporate money and foreign wars.  The Reagan coalition has been shattered.  Obama almost built a new coalition with a permanent majority but he lost working class voters (including minority voters which we’ve noticed a shift in the 2020 election).  The d coalition by its nature is unstable: the rich, the suburbs and the poor. It works for example on immigration (cheap labor for the rich in construction and services, recent immigrants get legalization and bringing relatives over, Latino groups expand power). It works less when say groups begin to conflict (like college admissions of Asian demands v African Americans and Latinos).  A realignment is very much in play and is based on 3 pillars: election rules (who votes which is why it’s existential), a beloved leader capable of inspiring broad swaths and growing the coalition (Trump and Biden aint it; neither Harris or Pence) and policies which can shape the coalition and which may very well be shaped by outside events such as the pandemic riots or foreign wars.


Corporate money could swing either way (& swings both ways) at the drop of a hat. Corporations have zero political allegiance. They want stability and, frankly, control. T was not stable - he did a lot that the corporations really like, traditional conservative policies on tax and regulations, and then he did things they hate, on trade tariffs and fostering instability, not traditional conservative policies. Rs moving away from foreign wars is very funny - there are a plethora of R hawks. 

As for your coalitions - the poor and working class will get shafted either way (see corporations), the rich will get richer either way and the middle class have a block that can swing either way (they just swung D because they couldn't take T anymore). Politicians like cultural wars because they don't get judged on policy. This isn't uniquely American, you can see the same thing in Europe, e.g. see the UK & Brexit.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 27, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I think the GOP's words, "Elections have consequences", and their removal of the filibuster on SCOTUS may come back to haunt them in the next couple of years. It will probably depend on the next 6 months.


Actually that quote comes from a bit further back.

"“Elections have consequences. I won.” That was President Barack Obama’s response to congressional Republicans in a 2009 White House meeting regarding his economic proposals."









						The SCOTUS nomination clearly demonstrates that elections have consequences
					

The idea that elections have consequences has not been lost on grassroots Republicans — in fact it has been a driving force behind what has animated the Republican base since 2009.




					thehill.com


----------



## whatithink (Jan 27, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually that quote comes from a bit further back.
> 
> "“Elections have consequences. I won.” That was President Barack Obama’s response to congressional Republicans in a 2009 White House meeting regarding his economic proposals."
> 
> ...


Sure, but it was widely quoted in Oct/Nov with filling the SCOTUS seat, that's what I was referring to.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Does unity mean forgetting the insurrection and quickly moving on?


no, like the Antifa rioters before them, you round up and prosecute those that actually rioted. Trump didn’t legally incite...his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home...barring some other evidence legally it ain’t there...anymore than sanders can be said to have incited the scalise shooting or Harris the Antifa violence.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Corporate money could swing either way (& swings both ways) at the drop of a hat. Corporations have zero political allegiance. They want stability and, frankly, control. T was not stable - he did a lot that the corporations really like, traditional conservative policies on tax and regulations, and then he did things they hate, on trade tariffs and fostering instability, not traditional conservative policies. Rs moving away from foreign wars is very funny - there are a plethora of R hawks.
> 
> As for your coalitions - the poor and working class will get shafted either way (see corporations), the rich will get richer either way and the middle class have a block that can swing either way (they just swung D because they couldn't take T anymore). Politicians like cultural wars because they don't get judged on policy. This isn't uniquely American, you can see the same thing in Europe, e.g. see the UK & Brexit.


The r party is moving towards trade protectionism, is hostile to illegal immigration, and populism. Corporations (for fear of the sanders economic liberal wing) are moving to embrace diversity wokeism.  Big corps like McConnell Cheney Romney type republicanism but are increasingly tilting d 

you’ve basically outlined the problem for the d coalition in the tensions between rich and poor since those form the 2 poles of their governance. The suburban Upper middle class is also not going back r as long as they embrace the populist America first rabble. The d coalition is bigger but more unstable....it’s been held together this round because Biden campaigned from his basement and was an Everyman to everyone (remember him promising to ban fracking then saying fracking was ok???)


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no, like the Antifa rioters before them, you round up and prosecute those that actually rioted. Trump didn’t legally incite...his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home...barring some other evidence legally it ain’t there...anymore than sanders can be said to have incited the scalise shooting or Harris the Antifa violence.


Fascist bullshit.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Fascist bullshit.


“oh Magoo you’ve done it again!”


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> “oh Magoo you’ve done it again!”


Your comments are not going to age well.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Your comments are not going to age well.


kind of like you,huh?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 27, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Sure, but it was widely quoted in Oct/Nov with filling the SCOTUS seat, that's what I was referring to.


I understand. And when they (the Rs) made that comment it was in part a reference to what Obama said. As in remember what you guys told us just a few short years ago?


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> kind of like you,huh?


I have posted nothing to be ashamed of. You, on the other hand, are supporting an attempt to overthrow the best government the world has ever seen.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I have posted nothing to be ashamed of. You, on the other hand, are supporting an attempt to overthrow the best government the world has ever seen.


Oh Magoo once again you can’t see

I said those that engaged in storming the capitol should be prosecuted. I don’t see any legal basis though for charging trump with incitement (and such a broad standard if it did exist would equitably demand sanders harris and waters all be charged as well). The only basis I really see for impeachment is if he told pence to disregard the constitution while presiding over the senate but we don’t know what was said between the 2 men since pence has been very hush hush

guess you aren’t ashamed of mischaracterizing people and libeling them

Poor confused Magoo.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh Magoo once again you can’t see
> 
> I said those that engaged in storming the capitol should be prosecuted. I don’t see any legal basis though for charging trump with incitement (and such a broad standard if it did exist would equitably demand sanders harris and waters all be charged as well). The only basis I really see for impeachment is if he told pence to disregard the constitution while presiding over the senate but we don’t know what was said between the 2 men since pence has been very hush hush
> 
> ...


"his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home"

That's either ignorant or a lie.  Pick one.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> "his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home"
> 
> That's either ignorant or a lie.  Pick one.


in the speech he specifically said to go to the capitol peacefully and patriotically

when the riot started he went on Twitter and tv and told them to go home

not ashamed of being a lefty curmudgeon troll either?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Tucker is a snake, always has been. Another example of an over privileged silver spoon playing to the “base”. Isn’t that what trump wanted was to “federalize” state elections? The federal election rules are already, federalized.


Unlike Anderson Vanderbilt Cooper, right?  Moron.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> in the speech he specifically said to go to the capitol peacefully and patriotically
> 
> when the riot started he went on Twitter and tv and told them to go home
> 
> not ashamed of being a lefty curmudgeon troll either?


When the riot started?  How many people were dead by then?  

After the big lie, the little lies come easily.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> When the riot started?  How many people were dead by then?
> 
> After the big lie, the little lies come easily.


Same standard for the ds. Then sanders Harris and waters all have blood on their hands and should be removed

he didn’t tell them to seize the capitol or riot Prior to that.  He even said it should be peaceful and patriotic. You can’t hold him legally responsible. The test for incitement is very strict and far exceeds spreading lies or working people emotionally up.

you just see lies because you are in your magoo fog and don’t know which way is up and down. Poor magoo.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Same standard for the ds. Then sanders Harris and waters all have blood on their hands and should be removed
> 
> he didn’t tell them to seize the capitol or riot Prior to that.  He even said it should be peaceful and patriotic. You can’t hold him legally responsible. The test for incitement is very strict and far exceeds spreading lies or working people emotionally up.
> 
> you just see lies because you are in your magoo fog and don’t know which way is up and down. Poor magoo.


I laugh every time I see you use the word "legal".


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> "his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home"
> 
> That's either ignorant or a lie.  Pick one.


Do you not own a television?  Does CNN show you ALL the news or not?


----------



## Scott m Shurson (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I laugh every time I see you use the word "legal".


We laugh every time you use “coocoo” because you’re schooled by someone.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I laugh every time I see you use the word "legal".


poor old Magoo. We love you anyways <pats you on the head and sighs>


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> poor old Magoo. We love you anyways <pats you on the head and sighs>


Condescension is your best argument?

Please continue.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Condescension is your best argument?
> 
> Please continue.


I choose to believe you are poor confused Magoo, instead of a partisan hack that willfully confuses things and distorts the truth.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and recognizing your occasional flash of lucidness.  <Hug and another head pat>.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I choose to believe you are poor confused Magoo, instead of a partisan hack that willfully confuses things and distorts the truth.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and recognizing your occasional flash of lucidness.  <Hug and another head pat>.


Partisan?  What party?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Partisan?  What party?


Hah, that's funny. Shall we put up a survey?  Folks?


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Hah, that's funny. Shall we put up a survey?  Folks?


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


Because the question itself is stupid.   If you aren't a confused Magoo, you are a partisan left wing troll, your protestations of being a "c" conservative notwithstanding.  But as I said, I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you are just a confused curmudgeon, and that you aren't a partisan left wing troll.

<another head pat>


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because the question itself is stupid.   If you aren't a confused Magoo, you are a partisan left wing troll, your protestations of being a "c" conservative notwithstanding.  But as I said, I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you are just a confused curmudgeon, and that you aren't a partisan left wing troll.
> 
> <another head pat>


What positions have I taken that are not classically conservative?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> What positions have I taken that are not classically conservative?


As we've discussed in the past, it's all in the definitions.  You'd have to say what you mean by "classically conservative".  IIRC you were also very supportive of the April-August protests so am very curious as to how you reconcile that with classically conservative.

If you want to consider yourself "classically conservative" that's your right, whatever that means.  You can be an astronaut, a spy or Emperor of North America for all I care <another head pat and a sigh>


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> As we've discussed in the past, it's all in the definitions.  You'd have to say what you mean by "classically conservative".  IIRC you were also very supportive of the April-August protests so am very curious as to how you reconcile that with classically conservative.
> 
> If you want to consider yourself "classically conservative" that's your right, whatever that means.  You can be an astronaut, a spy or Emperor of North America for all I care <another head pat and a sigh>


Very supportive of what?  Show me what led you to that conclusion.

My best attribute is that I have never claimed to be a lawyer.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Very supportive of what?  Show me what led you to that conclusion.
> 
> My best attribute is that I have never claimed to be a lawyer.


That's why I said "IIRC".  If you are saying now you don't support the April-August protests, hey I believe you.  I'm not going to take the time to pull all your posts that might still be up from that time period.

As to your second sentence, we agree on something!


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Here is a classical-conservative thought from Jim Wright's FB page, in response to neo-conservative Senator Ron Johnson --

If, as a senator, you're afraid to convict Trump of violent insurrection because his insane and violent followers have threatened to rise up in violent insurrection and murder you and then burn down the country, well, you know, THAT seems like it might be the exact reason Trump should be convicted. 
And if, as a Senator, you openly admit that you KNOW what you did wrong, unpatriotic, undemocratic, racist, seditionist, and complete and criminal repudiation of the oath you swore, BUT, you also openly admit that you just don't care -- well, THAT likewise seems like a pretty goddamn good reason to throw your treasonist ass out of congress and right into a prison cell.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That's why I said "IIRC".  If you are saying now you don't support the April-August protests, hey I believe you.  I'm not going to take the time to pull all your posts that might still be up from that time period.
> 
> As to your second sentence, we agree on something!


I couldn't disagree with some of the sentiments expressed by the protestors after watching a video of a man being tortured and murdered by multiple police officers.  I did not support the violence that accompanied some of the protests.

IIRC.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I couldn't disagree with some of the sentiments expressed by the protestors after watching a video of a man being tortured and murdered by multiple police officers.  I did not support the violence that accompanied some of the protests.
> 
> IIRC.


 Do you support "defund the police"?


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Do you support "defund the police"?


That depends on the definition.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Here is a classical-conservative thought from Jim Wright's FB page, in response to neo-conservative Senator Ron Johnson --
> 
> If, as a senator, you're afraid to convict Trump of violent insurrection because his insane and violent followers have threatened to rise up in violent insurrection and murder you and then burn down the country, well, you know, THAT seems like it might be the exact reason Trump should be convicted.
> And if, as a Senator, you openly admit that you KNOW what you did wrong, unpatriotic, undemocratic, racist, seditionist, and complete and criminal repudiation of the oath you swore, BUT, you also openly admit that you just don't care -- well, THAT likewise seems like a pretty goddamn good reason to throw your treasonist ass out of congress and right into a prison cell.


Jim Wright the speaker of the house that died in 2015?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> That depends on the definition.


Well, you tell me.   What do you support and don't.  I'm not the one trying to prove he's a "classical conservative".  I've already told you I don't believe you are just a lefty liberal troll, but rather a confused curmudgeon.  You seem to be going out of your way to prove my point.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Jim Wright the speaker of the house that died in 2015?


No Jim Wright of Florida.  Before t's treasonous behavior started, he was best known for making custom fountain pens and similar objects --





__





						Olivewood Double Twist Atlas Stonekettle Pens - Etsy
					

Rich golden olivewood with black tiger striping. Gold kit. Atlas double twist style. Sleek and stylish. Hand turned, then assembled by hand with a high quality mechanism. The pen uses Cross-style refills that come in a variety of colors and inks. Pen ships with black gel ink cartridge.  Laser etched




					www.etsy.com


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well, you tell me.   What do you support and don't.  I'm not the one trying to prove he's a "classical conservative".  I've already told you I don't believe you are just a lefty liberal troll, but rather a confused curmudgeon.  You seem to be going out of your way to prove my point.


Curmudgeon, perhaps, but there is nothing confused about it.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> No Jim Wright of Florida.  Before t's treasonous behavior started, he was best known for making custom fountain pens and similar objects --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is his twitter self-description --

My name is Jim Wright, I'm retired US Military intelligence officer and nowadays a professional political writer -- as most of my readers know. 

There's no link in my profile because I got tired of death threats and lunatics following me home.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> No Jim Wright of Florida.  Before t's treasonous behavior started, he was best known for making custom fountain pens and similar objects --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, in classic Magoo style, that's kind of a curveball out of no where.  O.k. if being a classical conservative making fountain pens and similar objects (which I assume you are into), fine you are a "classical conservative" <head pat>


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no, like the Antifa rioters before them, you round up and prosecute those that actually rioted. Trump didn’t legally incite...his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home...barring some other evidence legally it ain’t there...anymore than sanders can be said to have incited the scalise shooting or Harris the Antifa violence.


The false equivalency between racial justice protests and insurrection are laughable at best, but the right keep throwing it up there hoping the ill-informed will buy in.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no, like the Antifa rioters before them, you round up and prosecute those that actually rioted. Trump didn’t legally incite...his speech called for peaceful protest and he told them to go home...barring some other evidence legally it ain’t there...anymore than sanders can be said to have incited the scalise shooting or Harris the Antifa violence.


Sucker


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The false equivalency between racial justice protests and insurrection are laughable at best, but the right keep throwing it up there hoping the ill-informed will buy in.


Well, as I understand it, both were "mostly peaceful".


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sucker


Moron.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> convict Trump of violent insurrection because his insane and violent followers have threatened to rise up in violent insurrection and murder you and then burn down the country, well, you know, THAT seems like it might be the exact reason Trump should be convicted.


I find it interesting how the word insurrection gets tossed around by people who think they are smart in the media/dem party. 

It wasn't an insurrection by any standard other than saying so for political purposes and then having their followers dutifully repeat the term. You had a couple hundred people at most break into the congressional building. Most it seems walked around talking selfies. A few took some momentos. All should be prosecuted.

That however is not an insurrection. The same people tossing that term around so casually are the same ones saying fascist, racist, etc day in and day out. 

Trump didn't incite violence. Read or watch the speech. 

To pretend otherwise means you didn't bother reading or watching it, and are simply taking your clues from people with an agenda.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> That however is not an insurrection. The same people tossing that term around so casually are the same ones saying fascist, racist, etc day in and day out.


I'm not sure in espola's case he honestly understands the meaning of any of these terms and their nuances.  He's just parroting.  He can't even define what he means by "classic conservative".  He just points to this other crazy curmudgeon that makes pens and whose banner reads "don't just embrace the crazy....slide up next to it and lick it's ear."  If all the cuckoo birds are even still in the clock, they aren't all flying in the same direction.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I find it interesting how the word insurrection gets tossed around by people who think they are smart in the media/dem party.
> 
> It wasn't an insurrection by any standard other than saying so for political purposes and then having their followers dutifully repeat the term. You had a couple hundred people at most break into the congressional building. Most it seems walked around talking selfies. A few took some momentos. All should be prosecuted.
> 
> ...


I watched his speech, the one where he told the rioters to go to the Capitol and not be "weak" after others had whipped up the crowd with words like "trial by combaT" and "take names and kick ass".  I also watched him dancing around gleefully to televised reports of the riot while the rioters were committing murder in the Capitol.  I watched his speech when he told the rioters "We love you".


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm not sure in espola's case he honestly understands the meaning of any of these terms and their nuances.  He's just parroting.  He can't even define what he means by "classic conservative".  He just points to this other crazy curmudgeon that makes pens and whose banner reads "don't just embrace the crazy....slide up next to it and lick it's ear."  If all the cuckoo birds are even still in the clock, they aren't all flying in the same direction.


I have posted my definition of classic conservatism many times before, even in direct responses to you.  You can look it up.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I watched his speech, the one where he told the rioters to go to the Capitol and not be "weak" after others had whipped up the crowd with words like "trial by combaT" and "take names and kick ass".  I also watched him dancing around gleefully to televised reports of the riot while the rioters were committing murder in the Capitol.  I watched his speech when he told the rioters "We love you".


None of that rises to the legal standard of incitement.  Struggle words are often used in political speech.  If that weren't the case then Biden is in an impeachable situation for saying he would beat the hell out of Trump if in high school.  What matters is he specifically said to the protestors: 
"will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make our voices heard" and that he never instructed them to violate any law, enter the Capitol or do violence.



espola said:


> I have posted my definition of classic conservatism many times before, even in direct responses to you.  You can look it up.


Yeah, but never coherently, which as I was just telling DH, is the problem with you (and why you are a Magoo).


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> None of that rises to the legal standard of incitement.  Struggle words are often used in political speech.  If that weren't the case then Biden is in an impeachable situation for saying he would beat the hell out of Trump if in high school.  What matters is he specifically said to the protestors:
> "will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make our voices heard" and that he never instructed them to violate any law, enter the Capitol or do violence.
> 
> 
> ...


There's that word "legal" again.

What is not coherent about what I posted?  Are you afraid to look it up?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 27, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> There's that word "legal" again.
> 
> What is not coherent about what I posted?  Are you afraid to look it up?


Legal is all we really have to go on.  It's separate from the question of "moral".  

As to what you posted, all I remember is you and the crazy pen guy and Nixon.  Don't really care that much about you to waste an hour hunting and look it up.  <head pat>


----------



## Desert Hound (Jan 27, 2021)




----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Legal is all we really have to go on.  It's separate from the question of "moral".
> 
> As to what you posted, all I remember is you and the crazy pen guy and Nixon.  Don't really care that much about you to waste an hour hunting and look it up.  <head pat>


It seems to be a recurring tactic of yours to tell lies about someone and then claim that it is too much work to show the basis for your opinions.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> It seems to be a recurring tactic of yours to tell lies about someone and then claim that it is too much work to show the basis for your opinions.


It's funny (given your motto is so truthy) that you think I deal in tactics at all.  That would ascribe more care than I give to you.  Again, I look upon you as a confused lost curmudgeon, not some great opponent that I'm wagging some kind of half-assed tactical struggle with.  Poor Magoo.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It's funny (given your motto is so truthy) that you think I deal in tactics at all.  That would ascribe more care than I give to you.  Again, I look upon you as a confused lost curmudgeon, not some great opponent that I'm wagging some kind of half-assed tactical struggle with.  Poor Magoo.


Another of your tactics is personal insults when you have nothing material to back up your position.

Shouldn't a graduate of one of the top law schools in the country know better than that?  How would a judge react to similar behavior in a courtroom?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> None of that rises to the legal standard of incitement.  Struggle words are often used in political speech.  If that weren't the case then Biden is in an impeachable situation for saying he would beat the hell out of Trump if in high school.  What matters is he specifically said to the protestors:
> "will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make our voices heard" and that he never instructed them to violate any law, enter the Capitol or do violence.
> 
> 
> ...


What did they convict Al Capone of? Charles Manson?
In 1971, he was convicted of first-degree *murder*and conspiracy to commit *murder* for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. The prosecution contended that, while Manson never directly ordered the *murders*, his ideology constituted an overt act of conspiracy.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Another of your tactics is personal insults when you have nothing material to back up your position.
> 
> Shouldn't a graduate of one of the top law schools in the country know better than that?  How would a judge react to similar behavior in a courtroom?


That's funny coming from the coocoo king.  Pot meet kettle.  Like I said, I never initiate things with folks.  Your courtroom reference even implies a contest (hence the tactics reference) when that is nothing of the kind going on here.

If any thing, my jibes are giving you the benefit of the doubt.  I've said every once in a while you have something lucid and clever to say.  You are well-read if only partially understanding of what you read.  I choose to believe and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are this loveable, confused, crazy curmudgeon rather than a no account troll who is just trying to score partisan points.  You are the crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving dinner table who we nevertheless love


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That's funny coming from the coocoo king.  Pot meet kettle.  Like I said, I never initiate things with folks.  Your courtroom reference even implies a contest (hence the tactics reference) when that is nothing of the kind going on here.
> 
> If any thing, my jibes are giving you the benefit of the doubt.  I've said every once in a while you have something lucid and clever to say.  You are well-read if only partially understanding of what you read.  I choose to believe and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are this loveable, confused, crazy curmudgeon rather than a no account troll who is just trying to score partisan points.  You are the crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving dinner table who we nevertheless love


A word of advice from an old curmudgeon:  When you tell a lie about someone, they are the first to know that you are a liar.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> What did they convict Al Capone of? Charles Manson?
> In 1971, he was convicted of first-degree *murder*and conspiracy to commit *murder* for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. The prosecution contended that, while Manson never directly ordered the *murders*, his ideology constituted an overt act of conspiracy.


a. Don't know too much about the Manson murder, but wasn't Capone convicted of tax fraud?
b. the house Ds didn't charge murder.  They charged incitement which has a specific legal standard which has not been met here.
c.  they could have charged a conspiracy to do something "x" but a conspiracy also has some specific requirements, most notably an agreement, which can be express or implied.  The problem with that then is you have to get into not only Trump's intent but the intent of everyone involved in the so-called conspiracy to see if there was some sort of meeting of the minds.
d. That's stupid.  You are beclowning yourself.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> A word of advice from an old curmudgeon:  When you tell a lie about someone, they are the first to know that you are a liar.


Very telling.  Very profound.  See, Magoo can sometimes pull it out of his little bowler hat.

Because were I to believe the worst of you, this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.  But I don't, so I choose to believe you are in a fog of confusion and can't make distinctions clear.

Poor Magoo <pat>


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> a. Don't know too much about the Manson murder, but wasn't Capone convicted of tax fraud?
> b. the house Ds didn't charge murder.  They charged incitement which has a specific legal standard which has not been met here.
> c.  they could have charged a conspiracy to do something "x" but a conspiracy also has some specific requirements, most notably an agreement, which can be express or implied.  The problem with that then is you have to get into not only Trump's intent but the intent of everyone involved in the so-called conspiracy to see if there was some sort of meeting of the minds.
> d. That's stupid.  You are beclowning yourself.


Many of the Capitol rioters have stated publicly that they went on their rampage because t told them to.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Very telling.  Very profound.  See, Magoo can sometimes pull it out of his little bowler hat.
> 
> Because were I to believe the worst of you, this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.  But I don't, so I choose to believe you are in a fog of confusion and can't make distinctions clear.
> 
> Poor Magoo <pat>


Are you suggesting that I have lied about you?  If so, can you point out any such lies?  Or is this another one of your "look it up for yourself" evasions?


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Many of the Capitol rioters have stated publicly that they went on their rampage because t told them to.


If someone stated hypothetically that JD Salinger told them to kill Ronald Reagan, JD Salinger could not be convicted of the offense merely for writing the book unless he told the person expressly to kill Ronald Reagan notwithstanding whatever the shooter might have thought JD Salinger said.  That's black letter law right there.



espola said:


> Are you suggesting that I have lied about you?  If so, can you point out any such lies?  Or is this another one of your "look it up for yourself" evasions?


Again don't think they are lies per se because I don't think you have any intent to alter the truth.  I think you just get confused, like remember the entire "you said I supported Donald Trump" thing when really I said "your argument is defending him".  Still don't get the distinction, do you?  Thought so <head pat>


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If someone stated hypothetically that JD Salinger told them to kill Ronald Reagan, JD Salinger could not be convicted of the offense merely for writing the book unless he told the person expressly to kill Ronald Reagan notwithstanding whatever the shooter might have thought JD Salinger said.  That's black letter law right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Again don't think they are lies per se because I don't think you have any intent to alter the truth.  I think you just get confused, like remember the entire "you said I supported Donald Trump" thing when really I said "your argument is defending him".  Still don't get the distinction, do you?  Thought so <head pat>


Your Salinger analogy falls apart because J.D. never encouraged violence or promised to pay the legal fees of his supporters if they got rough with protesters at his rallies.

Also - today on Fox News is a report that t admitted some blame for the riot in a meeting with Kevin McCarthy ostensibly called to discuss impeachment defense strategy.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> Your Salinger analogy falls apart because J.D. never encouraged violence or promised to pay the legal fees of his supporters if they got rough with protesters at his rallies.
> 
> Also - today on Fox News is a report that t admitted some blame for the riot in a meeting with Kevin McCarthy ostensibly called to discuss impeachment defense strategy.


I have yet to see any evidence of Trump directly encouraging violence at the Capitol or promising to pay the legal fees of people who invaded the Capitol.

If true, it's a good thing that Trump admitted some blame for the riot.  I think he does share some blame for the riot.  In particular, I think he was way too slow and too weak in his calls telling them to stop.  It doesn't make him guilty of incitement, which is what the Ds legally need to prove, and haven't.

Once again, dear Magoo, you are confusing morality and law....they are 2 separate things.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I have yet to see any evidence of Trump directly encouraging violence at the Capitol or promising to pay the legal fees of people who invaded the Capitol.
> 
> If true, it's a good thing that Trump admitted some blame for the riot.  I think he does share some blame for the riot.  In particular, I think he was way too slow and too weak in his calls telling them to stop.  It doesn't make him guilty of incitement, which is what the Ds legally need to prove, and haven't.
> 
> Once again, dear Magoo, you are confusing morality and law....they are 2 separate things.


If you continue to narrow your objections, you soon won't have any.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> If you continue to narrow your objections, you soon won't have any.


What narrowing.  My position has been entirely consistent all along: Ds haven't proven incitement.  Once again Magoo you are seeing things that aren't there.  Put on dem glasses


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> What narrowing.  My position has been entirely consistent all along: Ds haven't proven incitement.  Once again Magoo you are seeing things that aren't there.  Put on dem glasses


You didn't dispute that t had advocated and supported violence at his rallies.  Your response is that that can be ignored because in your "legal" opinion he didn't advocate violence at his last rally.  Other people have different opinions about the meaning and intent of his words including those who bragged about their actions during and after the riot.  

Whose name is on all these flags and banners?





__





						Loading…
					





					ca-times.brightspotcdn.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> You didn't dispute that t had advocated and supported violence at his rallies.  Your response is that that can be ignored because in your "legal" opinion he didn't advocate violence at his last rally.  Other people have different opinions about the meaning and intent of his words including those who bragged about their actions during and after the riot.
> 
> Whose name is on all these flags and banners?
> 
> ...


You are making several fallacies which show you are lost and don't really know what you are talking about:

a. Assuming, arguendo, Trump did advocate and support violence at his rallies, it's really an irrelevant towards the charge of incitement  Otherwise, Biden, for the punch in the mouth comment about Trump, could be held legally responsible if someone later took a punch or shot at Trump from here on after (if so, he better hope no one does in the next 4 years or he'll have to resign).  To constitute incitement, he would have had to have told his supporters at such rallies to seize the Capitol or something equivalent.
B. You can't hold a political leader responsible for the actions of their fans.  Otherwise Kamala needs to be removed for the actions of the Antifa rioters and Bernie for the Scalise shooting.
C. It's irrelevant if Trump's name is on the banner.  If they had been holding Magoo banners, you wouldn't be held legally responsible either.
D. There's a difference between morality and law which keeps eluding you.  They aren't the same thing.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

This woman is a t supporter now serving in Congress --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354436920965783558


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 27, 2021)

espola said:


> This woman is a t supporter now serving in Congress --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354436920965783558


She is the new face of the Republican Party.


----------



## espola (Jan 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> She is the new face of the Republican Party.


McCarthy has promised to have a talk with her.


----------



## tenacious (Jan 28, 2021)

Ahh... so I understand that as expected Pelosi and Schumer managed to totally bungle the Trump impeachment. Seems to me the failure to find any agreement with Mitch to protect the filibuster (which dems don't have the votes to remove anyway) was the missed opportunity to provide any political cover for Republican moderates thinking of voting to impeach Trump. But hey, the progressives would have been upset (like usual)- so I guess no results are sort of par for the course from democratic leadership.

In other news, here in NYC the Gov has decided that the way to fill the empty Time Square office space (and the $2.4 billion drop in property taxes revenue) is to fill the empty offices with subsidized low income housing. Not that I'm against subsidized housing... but yikes.










						How Cuomo would undermine his own smart offices-to-housing plan
					

No one can say for sure, but as few as 12 percent of Manhattan office workers are physically at their desks. There are cities with somewhat higher rates of office return, but the work-from-home wav…




					nypost.com


----------



## MARsSPEED (Jan 28, 2021)

espola said:


> This woman is a t supporter now serving in Congress --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354436920965783558


You guys have just gone to a new low with this post, lol. David Hogg, lol. That's like me posting a video of Laura Loomer. LOL.

Funniest part is that the Congress woman actually makes an excellent point!!!

In other news, a man was arrested and charged by the Biden DOJ for memes spreading disinfo (otherwise known as his opinion and free speech...)









						Florida man charged with election interference for spreading disinformation, usually via memes
					

"There is no place in public discourse for lies and misinformation to defraud citizens of their right to vote," the acting U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of New York said.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## espola (Jan 28, 2021)

MARsSPEED said:


> You guys have just gone to a new low with this post, lol. David Hogg, lol. That's like me posting a video of Laura Loomer. LOL.
> 
> Funniest part is that the Congress woman actually makes an excellent point!!!
> 
> ...


What excellent point did she make?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 28, 2021)

espola said:


> McCarthy has promised to have a talk with her.


Yeah and give her a seat.


----------



## watfly (Jan 28, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> She is the new face of the Republican Party.


PPV battle between her and AOC, no weapons.  Hopefully, they take each other out. (I'm not serious, just in case there were any doubts)


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 28, 2021)

Yeah I didn't see this coming.....the establishment should tremble.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354795717433425921


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 28, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah I didn't see this coming.....the establishment should tremble.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354795717433425921


This Gamestopper thing is getting pretty big both financially and politically.  

Just watched "The Big Short" again.  Amazing how the so-called experts never see the worst coming....we saw it in 2008, with the initial rising of the pandemic, with the lockdowns, and even with the Capitol seizure where they just miss the ball entirely.


----------



## Grace T. (Jan 29, 2021)

Collins and Romney jumping off the covid relief bill bandwagon, angry Biden going for left spending bill with extras and not negotiating. Looks like manchin therefore will have final say and goes through 50+ as Biden’s first reconciliation bill.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 1, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Collins and Romney jumping off the covid relief bill bandwagon, angry Biden going for left spending bill with extras and not negotiating. Looks like manchin therefore will have final say and goes through 50+ as Biden’s first reconciliation bill.


My guess is this relief bill is going to go no where. Although I haven't seen what the dem's are going to offer to Manchin to bring him into the fold. So we will see?

Judging by how so far the Dem Leadership's plan has amounted to sending Harris out to do radio interviews in WV, as a means of putting pressure on him with local voters... call me underwhelmed. Folks are forgetting how poorly she did in the democratic primary. If she couldn't win over that crowd, hard to imagine her winning over Appalacha just a few months later.

Pelosi while a good manager is feckless politically, and Schumer is running scared from a AOC primary challenge. If Biden wants to save this deal my guess is he'd better start reaching out across the aisle himself here soon and take control of the message. Or sort of like ending up with Harris as VP instead of Klobochar (whose folksy style more likely would have been able to pressure Manchin via radio)... events are going to start spiraling beyond his control.


----------



## crush (Feb 1, 2021)

Thanks to all the great moms out there.  

I love my adopted mom so much.  Check out this cool video.  My mom would have to tell me everyday that I was smart & that God had a beautiful wife all planned for me   Because I stuttered as a young lad, most thought I was a dum, dum and a moron.  "Hey Moron, cat got your tongue?"  "Hahahahaha" I used to say to myself plus a few other choice words.  I would then seek my revenge and destroy the punks who laughed at me on the playground.  I bullied back only the way I knew how.   God I wish I was able to learn education outside when I was young and away from being trapped in freaking classroom all day.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> My guess is this relief bill is going to go no where. Although I haven't seen what the dem's are going to offer to Manchin to bring him into the fold. So we will see?
> 
> Judging by how so far the Dem Leadership's plan has amounted to sending Harris out to do radio interviews in WV, as a means of putting pressure on him with local voters... call me underwhelmed. Folks are forgetting how poorly she did in the democratic primary. If she couldn't win over that crowd, hard to imagine her winning over Appalacha just a few months later.
> 
> Pelosi while a good manager is feckless politically, and Schumer is running scared from a AOC primary challenge. If Biden wants to save this deal my guess is he'd better start reaching out across the aisle himself here soon and take control of the message. Or sort of like ending up with Harris as VP instead of Klobochar (whose folksy style more likely would have been able to pressure Manchin via radio)... events are going to start spiraling beyond his control.


preach it!  You’re spot on with this. I’d go further and say they’ve already started...still time to right the ship


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

I gotta say I’m not seeing a whole lot of “unity!”   It’s fine if he doesn’t wanna govern that way (Trump certainly didn’t) but that’s not what was sold to the electorate. 

Throwing that crazy r off her committees too is going to have consequences which the rs will give to the ds the next time they are in charge and it’s not like some ds haven’t said a bunch of crazy or antisemitic stuff before.  

the one thing which does stick into my craw is appointing Kerry as climate czar when he’s zipping around the world in a private plane and owns 10 different houses with a bigger carbon footprint than I can ever make in 5 lifetimes.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I gotta say I’m not seeing a whole lot of “unity!”   It’s fine if he doesn’t wanna govern that way (Trump certainly didn’t) but that’s not what was sold to the electorate.
> 
> Throwing that crazy r off her committees too is going to have consequences which the rs will give to the ds the next time they are in charge and it’s not like some ds haven’t said a bunch of crazy or antisemitic stuff before.
> 
> the one thing which does stick into my craw is appointing Kerry as climate czar when he’s zipping around the world in a private plane and owns 10 different houses with a bigger carbon footprint than I can ever make in 5 lifetimes.


Which ds did you have in mind there?  Anything close to Jewish space lasers starting California wildfires?

And where are those 10 houses?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> Which ds did you have in mind there?  Anything close to Jewish space lasers starting California wildfires?
> 
> And where are those 10 houses?


I've read various reports on the houses from 3 to 20 actually.  It depends how you count them (do you count rental properties....properties he enjoys but owned by his wife).

And there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar.  There are lots of others, while not necessarily equivalent, are vulnerable: Maxine Waters (for incitement), Pelosi (for CVOID hypocrisy), AOC (for her story about the Capitol hill storming).  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority party adopts a rule: no nationalists/no socialists can hold committee seats.  I'm less concerned about what the standard is for stripping the opposite party member of the committee assignment, that this is now going to be used (with varying degrees of justification) from now on.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've read various reports on the houses from 3 to 20 actually.  It depends how you count them (do you count rental properties....properties he enjoys but owned by his wife).
> 
> And there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar.  There are lots of others, while not necessarily equivalent, are vulnerable: Maxine Waters (for incitement), Pelosi (for CVOID hypocrisy), AOC (for her story about the Capitol hill storming).  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority party adopts a rule: no nationalists/no socialists can hold committee seats.  I'm less concerned about what the standard is for stripping the opposite party member of the committee assignment, that this is now going to be used (with varying degrees of justification) from now on.


I know that Kerry married a rich woman who keeps properties in her name in accordance with their pre-nuptial agreement.  Is that where your 10 comes from?

What did Omar say that you think is anti-semitic? 

The rest of your response is just confirmation that you are lost and don't really know what you are talking about:


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> I know that Kerry married a rich woman who keeps properties in her name in accordance with their pre-nuptial agreement.  Is that where your 10 comes from?
> 
> What did Omar say that you think is anti-semitic?
> 
> The rest of your response is just confirmation that you are lost and don't really know what you are talking about:


Small example.  There are others.....









						Rep. Ilhan Omar deletes the controversial tweets that drew charges of anti-Semitism
					

Rep. Ilhan Omar apologized for the tweets the next day.



					www.usatoday.com
				




As to the houses, hey if you are the climate czar maybe your spouse shouldn't have upteen number of houses either.  What is the expression: "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion?"


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Small example.  There are others.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"...azccusations..."?  Is that the best you have?

Is "upteen" more than 10?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> "...azccusations..."?  Is that the best you have?
> 
> Is "upteen" more than 10?


Meh....there's a ton more....colleagues within her own party have condemned her antisemetic remarks.  Not really a person you want to be defending here....









						Minnesota Congresswoman Ignites Debate On Israel And Anti-Semitism
					

Constituents of Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., voice concern over recent controversial comments. On Thursday, the House of Representatives passed a resolution condemning anti-Semitism.




					www.npr.org
				












						Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Miftah, and the problem of anti-Semitism within the movement for Palestinians' right to self-determination
					

Miftah, the group that was to host Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib's trip to the West Bank, has published anti-Semitism and support for suicide bombers.




					www.businessinsider.com
				












						Ilhan Omar's comments were anti-Semitic rhetoric, let's not beat around the bush: Today's talker
					

When prominent people or members of Congress spout anti-Semitic rhetoric, it gives a green light to others to repeat that rhetoric, says head of ADL.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Meh....there's a ton more....colleagues within her own party have condemned her antisemetic remarks.  Not really a person you want to be defending here....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More opinions and accusations.  Here is something she actually tweeted --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095046561254567937


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> More opinions and accusations.  Here is something she actually tweeted --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095046561254567937


 I'm just going to assume that you are just trying to be your usual Magoo contrarian here, since I don't think you are a bad person or have bad intentions.  But her D colleagues have denounced her remarks in the past, and she was forced to apologize.  Now, you can argue she's reformed (which is fine) but I think her past remarks aren't really great, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near being implied to defend them, and your defense of her isn't the action of a large C or small c conservative.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm just going to assume that you are just trying to be your usual Magoo contrarian here, since I don't think you are a bad person or have bad intentions.  But her D colleagues have denounced her remarks in the past, and she was forced to apologize.  Now, you can argue she's reformed (which is fine) but I think her past remarks aren't really great, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near being implied to defend them, and your defense of her isn't the action of a large C or small c conservative.


Before I respond, what is your definition of "anti-Semitism"?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> Before I respond, what is your definition of "anti-Semitism"?


I don't really have one.  But I know if the D's are saying the remarks were anti-Semitic, and it's agreed in a bipartisan way, it ain't good.m  Again, I'm less concerned whether something is or isn't wrong than the precedent the action sets.  You're going off the road again and into a forest, and this one is a particularly dark one.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I don't really have one.  But I know if the D's are saying the remarks were anti-Semitic, and it's agreed in a bipartisan way, it ain't good.m  Again, I'm less concerned whether something is or isn't wrong than the precedent the action sets.  You're going off the road again and into a forest, and this one is a particularly dark one.


"I really don't have one".

That appears to be a bold admission that you don't know what you are talking about.  Are you just spooning up pablum without even tasting it?


----------



## BigRed (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've read various reports on the houses from 3 to 20 actually.  It depends how you count them (do you count rental properties....properties he enjoys but owned by his wife).
> 
> And there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar.  There are lots of others, while not necessarily equivalent, are vulnerable: Maxine Waters (for incitement), Pelosi (for CVOID hypocrisy), AOC (for her story about the Capitol hill storming).  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority party adopts a rule: no nationalists/no socialists can hold committee seats.  I'm less concerned about what the standard is for stripping the opposite party member of the committee assignment, that this is now going to be used (with varying degrees of justification) from now on.


If all it takes are crazy beliefs, I could come up with strong justifications for every single member of congress for which I'd find supporters.  Do you believe in a spaghetti monster flying through the sky? An invisible omnipotent being in the sky not named God or Allah or Elohim?  Mother Gaia?  Any supernatural being, no matter the name? Guam may capsize? The world will end in 12 years?  Obama was born in Kenya?  We exist inside a computer simulation? The undead? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is not a reference to LSD? Moon landing was faked? Moon landing wasn't faked?

I could go on.  To complicate things even further, what was crazy 100 years ago may no longer seem crazy and what is crazy now might not be seen as crazy 100 years from now.  Who knows, maybe Guam actually will capsize from too many people living there.

To be clear, I think MTG is crazy or at least has said some pretty crazy things and in a sane world she wouldn't have been elected in the first place. However, it is tough for me to objectively say that she or her beliefs are any more crazy or bigoted than any other member of Congress and so I can confidently agree and say that this precedent will used in the future by one party against members of an opposing party that may or may not deserve it.  In fact, I'm pretty confident it will be expanded to eventually expel members of an opposing party from Congress.  If convicted of criminal acts, it is a different story of course.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> "I really don't have one".
> 
> That appears to be a bold admission that you don't know what you are talking about.  Are you just spooning up pablum without even tasting it?


Just go down deeper into that road.  Frankly I'm surprised you would defend her.  The remarks are disgusting.  The Ds condemned them.  She was forced to apologize for them.  She made remarks more than once.  Dude...you are really deep on this one.  If you think Omar is all that please don't ever call yourself a conservative.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Just go down deeper into that road.  Frankly I'm surprised you would defend her.  The remarks are disgusting.  The Ds condemned them.  She was forced to apologize for them.  She made remarks more than once.  Dude...you are really deep on this one.  If you think Omar is all that please don't ever call yourself a conservative.


You say her remarks are antisemitic but you can't give a definition of what that means.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> You say her remarks are antisemitic but you can't give a definition of what that means.


I wouldn't presume to culturally appropriate to try to come up with some other culture's definition of racism.

I'm relying on the fact that several of her D colleagues condemned the remark, she was forced to apologize for them, and a not small segment of the Jewish community took offense.

Again, surprised you are doubling down in defending her.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I wouldn't presume to culturally appropriate to try to come up with some other culture's definition of racism.
> 
> I'm relying on the fact that several of her D colleagues condemned the remark, she was forced to apologize for them, and a not small segment of the Jewish community took offense.
> 
> Again, surprised you are doubling down in defending her.


I don't see how you can say I am defending her when you won't state what it is that she needs to be defended from.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

BigRed said:


> If all it takes are crazy beliefs, I could come up with strong justifications for every single member of congress for which I'd find supporters.  Do you believe in a spaghetti monster flying through the sky? An invisible omnipotent being in the sky not named God or Allah or Elohim?  Mother Gaia?  Any supernatural being, no matter the name? Guam may capsize? The world will end in 12 years?  Obama was born in Kenya?  We exist inside a computer simulation? The undead? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is not a reference to LSD? Moon landing was faked? Moon landing wasn't faked?
> 
> I could go on.  To complicate things even further, what was crazy 100 years ago may no longer seem crazy and what is crazy now might not be seen as crazy 100 years from now.  Who knows, maybe Guam actually will capsize from too many people living there.
> 
> To be clear, I think MTG is crazy or at least has said some pretty crazy things and in a sane world she wouldn't have been elected in the first place. However, it is tough for me to objectively say that she or her beliefs are any more crazy or bigoted than any other member of Congress and so I can confidently agree and say that this precedent will used in the future by one party against members of an opposing party that may or may not deserve it.  In fact, I'm pretty confident it will be expanded to eventually expel members of an opposing party from Congress.  If convicted of criminal acts, it is a different story of course.


By an overwhelming number, the party affiliation of Representatives expelled, censured, reprimanded, or excluded has been Democratic. 





__





						List of United States representatives expelled, censured, or reprimanded - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> I don't see how you can say I am defending her when you won't state what it is that she needs to be defended from.


The quotes, from which members of her own party and the Jewish community took offense, posted above in several news sources.

I think it's actually kind of funny that not only did you go off the road into the forest on the main point (that this sets a horrible precedent for the future regardless of the nature of the statement), but just because you wanted to try and one up me in a rhetorical debate on a minor side point, you find yourself in a position of defending Omar's comments, for which she herself was forced to apologize.  Nice own goal.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The quotes, from which members of her own party and the Jewish community took offense, posted above in several news sources.
> 
> I think it's actually kind of funny that not only did you go off the road into the forest on the main point (that this sets a horrible precedent for the future regardless of the nature of the statement), but just because you wanted to try and one up me in a rhetorical debate on a minor side point, you find yourself in a position of defending Omar's comments, for which she herself was forced to apologize.  Nice own goal.


You supported your "horrible precedent" idea with empty handwaving.  I disagree that it sets a precedent.  Removing her from committee assignments after the Republicans failed to clean their own house (and Minority Leader McCarthy even said that the party caucus gave her a standing ovation) is about the lightest in the spectrum of appropriate responses to her behavior.  

I expect her to pick up t's self-assigned role of daily crazy tweets until even the GOP has had enough of her.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> You supported your "horrible precedent" idea with empty handwaving.  I disagree that it sets a precedent.  Removing her from committee assignments after the Republicans failed to clean their own house (and Minority Leader McCarthy even said that the party caucus gave her a standing ovation) is about the lightest in the spectrum of appropriate responses to her behavior.
> 
> I expect her to pick up t's self-assigned role of daily crazy tweets until even the GOP has had enough of her.


My response is the rs will use the precedent (however you think of the remarks, rightly or wrongly) on people like the squad or Maxine waters when they take power.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> My response is the rs will use the precedent (however you think of the remarks, rightly or wrongly) on people like the squad or Maxine waters when they take power.


Maybe the current crop of rs will.  It seems you know them better than I do. Standing ovation for MTG?  Imagine that.  

I think this situation demonstrates how far off-base a Representative has to be to be called out.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> Maybe the current crop of rs will.  It seems you know them better than I do. Standing ovation for MTG?  Imagine that.
> 
> I think this situation demonstrates how far off-base a Representative has to be to be called out.


your argument basically amounts to that she is “uniquely bad”. “Uniquely bad” is in the eye of the beholder.  Omar is uniquely bad in some Jewish circles.  The rs will use it now that the precedent is set...perhaps limited to those on the d side that are viewed by rs as uniquely bad. And as our other poster red has pointed out there’s a lot of bad to go around in congress for both sides.  Retaliation could follow on retaliation with each time the circle of what is uniquely bad growing. I wouldnt be surprised we get to a point where alleged racists/socialists get routinely thrown off committees. Limiting principles are hard in a knife fight


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> your argument basically amounts to that she is “uniquely bad”. “Uniquely bad” is in the eye of the beholder.  Omar is uniquely bad in some Jewish circles.  The rs will use it now that the precedent is set...perhaps limited to those on the d side that are viewed by rs as uniquely bad. And as our other poster red has pointed out there’s a lot of bad to go around in congress for both sides.  Retaliation could follow on retaliation with each time the circle of what is uniquely bad growing. I wouldnt be surprised we get to a point where alleged racists/socialists get routinely thrown off committees. Limiting principles are hard in a knife fight


Show me anyone, Democrat or Republican, as crazy as she is.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> Show me anyone, Democrat or Republican, as crazy as she is.


You are missing the point again. Any objective reality is irrelevant. There are plenty of people though that are viewed by someone across the aisle as “uniquely bad”.  And once you open the door it’s foolish to think it won’t be used again.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are missing the point again. Any objective reality is irrelevant. There are plenty of people though that are viewed by someone across the aisle as “uniquely bad”.  And once you open the door it’s foolish to think it won’t be used again.


The door has been open since Congress first convened.  MTG is the first to have supported the assassination of government officials, unless you count the Democrats who were thrown out early in the Civil War.


----------



## espola (Feb 5, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are missing the point again. Any objective reality is irrelevant. There are plenty of people though that are viewed by someone across the aisle as “uniquely bad”.  And once you open the door it’s foolish to think it won’t be used again.


 have to admire someone who would post "Any objective reality is irrelevant" as a debating point.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 5, 2021)

espola said:


> have to admire someone who would post "Any objective reality is irrelevant" as a debating point.


because you’ve lost the road again. It’s not an argument about objective morals but one of congressional norms


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> because you’ve lost the road again. It’s not an argument about objective morals but one of congressional norms


I guess that's one point on which we differ.  I hold a strong belief in objective reality.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> I guess that's one point on which we differ.  I hold a strong belief in objective reality.


i think there is one too but a. Most people get it wrong (but think they are right) and b. Sometimes it isn’t relevant.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> i think there is one too but a. Most people get it wrong (but think they are right) and b. Sometimes it isn’t relevant.


Republicans (especially those in Congress) now must face the objective reality that they have publicly supported a lunatic who threatens violence against the government they say they want to control.  As long as they allow MTG to spout her evil from a seat in Congress, they risk losing their whole party's relevance in national elections.  There  have been other objectively real political party crises in our history--

--Nixon's Southern Strategy in which many racist Democrats decided they were no longer wanted in their party and so became Republicans (probably winning Nixon the 1968 election)
--The  Dixiecrats who were repulsed by Truman's civil rights progress (things like ending segregation in the military, for example) and ran their own slate of candidates, winning 39 electoral votes in 1948,  The Democratic Party stomped out the last embers of that revolt by the 1952 election.
--The 1856 breakup of the Whig Party, in which the abolitionists could no longer support the party compromise positions on slavery and then formed what we now call the Republican Party.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Republicans (especially those in Congress) now must face the objective reality that they have publicly supported a lunatic who threatens violence against the government they say they want to control.  As long as they allow MTG to spout her evil from a seat in Congress, they risk losing their whole party's relevance in national elections.  There  have been other objectively real political party crises in our history--
> 
> --Nixon's Southern Strategy in which many racist Democrats decided they were no longer wanted in their party and so became Republicans (probably winning Nixon the 1968 election)
> --The  Dixiecrats who were repulsed by Truman's civil rights progress (things like ending segregation in the military, for example) and ran their own slate of candidates, winning 39 electoral votes in 1948,  The Democratic Party stomped out the last embers of that revolt by the 1952 election.
> --The 1856 breakup of the Whig Party, in which the abolitionists could no longer support the party compromise positions on slavery and then formed what we now call the Republican Party.


-The Mongols believed in the objective reality where they had the right to ransack the world and kill civilians
-The Crusaders and the Caliphates believed in an objective reality where their God commanded to them to win the holy land
-The US held an objective reality in Manifest Destiny entitling them to displace anyone from coast to coast that stood in their way
-The Spanish Empire held an objective reality where it had the right to conquer and convert in the name of God
-The British Empire believed in an objective reality where they had a white man's burden to civilize the world
-The Confederacy believed in an objective reality where slavery was a moral good.
-The Russian Communists believed in an objective reality where they could build a worker's paradise
-The Nazis believed in an objective reality where they were the master race and subhumans existed.
-The segregationalists believed in their objective reality that whites were better than blacks.
-The Chinese believe in an objective reality where all Uighurs are a terrorism problem that need to be reeducated or exterminated
-And you seemingly believe in an objective reality where the behavior of Omar (not to mention the rest of the squad) is a.o.k.

Human beings are really bad at objective realities.  Watch Rashomon.  It will enlighten.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> -The Mongols believed in the objective reality where they had the right to ransack the world and kill civilians
> -The Crusaders and the Caliphates believed in an objective reality where their God commanded to them to win the holy land
> -The US held an objective reality in Manifest Destiny entitling them to displace anyone from coast to coast that stood in their way
> -The Spanish Empire held an objective reality where it had the right to conquer and convert in the name of God
> ...


Believing in commands from a god is, by definition, not objective reality.

Your other examples are only opinions, some of which I have never heard before.

Show me where I have said "the behavior of Omar (not to mention the rest of the squad) is a.o.k."


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Believing in commands from a god is, by definition, not objective reality.
> 
> Your other examples are only opinions, some of which I have never heard before.
> 
> Show me where I have said "the behavior of Omar (not to mention the rest of the squad) is a.o.k."


If you are finally saying what Omar said is not o.k., I'll take you at your word.  But so far there's just been a lot of defending her from you.  But if you really believe that, please say so.

As to the rest, you are missing the point that it's all opinion and belief since you can never be sure of what is objective truth.  An objective truth may exist, we just can't be 100% sure anything ever hits that mark.  If you don't believe in a divine arbiter, that makes it even more likely because that means there is no "referee" beyond your idea of what's right (which BTW is why atheists make some of the worst totalitarians....their version of the truth to them is the only version of the truth and all other opposition must be stamped out).

I further point out that the believe in no divine being is also not an objective reality because there is no way to tell whether one exists or does not exist.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If you are finally saying what Omar said is not o.k., I'll take you at your word.  But so far there's just been a lot of defending her from you.  But if you really believe that, please say so.
> 
> As to the rest, you are missing the point that it's all opinion and belief since you can never be sure of what is objective truth.  An objective truth may exist, we just can't be 100% sure anything ever hits that mark.  If you don't believe in a divine arbiter, that makes it even more likely because that means there is no "referee" beyond your idea of what's right (which BTW is why atheists make some of the worst totalitarians....their version of the truth to them is the only version of the truth and all other opposition must be stamped out).
> 
> I further point out that the believe in no divine being is also not an objective reality because there is no way to tell whether one exists or does not exist.


I don't know whether I agree with your opinion about Omar being anti-semitic because you have failed to state what you mean by that.

As for belief in an invisible deity, which one should I pick out?   The non-mystical wing of Buddhism has a certain rational appeal, but I think if I were forced into a choice I would go with a fertility goddess cult where everyone gets stoned and has uninhibited sex at every service.  "Today's hymn is Love the One You're With, revealed to us by the prophet Stephen."


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> I don't know whether I agree with your opinion about Omar being anti-semitic because you have failed to state what you mean by that.
> 
> As for belief in an invisible deity, which one should I pick out?   The non-mystical wing of Buddhism has a certain rational appeal, but I think if I were forced into a choice I would go with a fertility goddess cult where everyone gets stoned and has uninhibited sex at every service.  "Today's hymn is Love the One You're With, revealed to us by the prophet Stephen."


You can certainly state whether you support Omar’s statements (which many felt were antisemetic) or denounce them.

As to a deity whatever floats your boat. For all we know South Park got it right and the “correct” answer is Mormon, the opposite of not only your desired orgy, but also your curmudgeon persona...wouldn’t that be funny “Mormon, the correct answer was Mormon”.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You can certainly state whether you support Omar’s statements (which many felt were antisemetic) or denounce them.
> 
> As to a deity whatever floats your boat. For all we know South Park got it right and the “correct” answer is Mormon, the opposite of not only your desired orgy, but also your curmudgeon persona...wouldn’t that be funny “Mormon, the correct answer was Mormon”.


Back a ways up the thread you responded with "there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar".  

What did you mean by that?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Back a ways up the thread you responded with "there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar".
> 
> What did you mean by that?


I’ll answer yours but please answer mine: her comments ok?

that there’s lots of folks that think the remarks were antisemetic


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’ll answer yours but please answer mine: her comments ok?
> 
> that there’s lots of folks that think the remarks were antisemetic


You didn't answer the question, which leads me to believe that you don't understand the issue.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question, which leads me to believe that you don't understand the issue.


I did and you've ducked mine now 3x, despite having been put in a position to defend Omar's comments, and been given ample room now to denounce them.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I did and you've ducked mine now 3x, despite having been put in a position to defend Omar's comments, and been given ample room now to denounce them.


Don't put the blame for your lack of precision on me.  I already posted her follow-up statement, which amounted to an apology.  You have posted nothing of hers that you claim to be anti-semitic, or even give a definition of what that would mean.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Don't put the blame for your lack of precision on me.  I already posted her follow-up statement, which amounted to an apology.  You have posted nothing of hers that you claim to be anti-semitic, or even give a definition of what that would mean.


Hey I've given you now 4x the chance to distance yourself from the remarks.  I don't need to define what is antisemetic and wouldn't because it would be presumptuous of me to define something as racist for another culture (any more than it would be for me to define what racism should mean for a black person).  It is sufficient to know a large segment of the Jewish population denounced her for them, her own colleagues denounced her for it, and she was forced to apologize.  Yet you have never said, "yeah, I don't know what antisemitism is but the remarks were bad" leading to the reasonable inference that you were o.k. with the remarks, since you haven't said otherwise so far and in fact have been defending them.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Hey I've given you now 4x the chance to distance yourself from the remarks.  I don't need to define what is antisemetic and wouldn't because it would be presumptuous of me to define something as racist for another culture (any more than it would be for me to define what racism should mean for a black person).  It is sufficient to know a large segment of the Jewish population denounced her for them, her own colleagues denounced her for it, and she was forced to apologize.  Yet you have never said, "yeah, I don't know what antisemitism is but the remarks were bad" leading to the reasonable inference that you were o.k. with the remarks, since you haven't said otherwise so far and in fact have been defending them.


You posted "there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar".  You used the words without knowing what they mean?

It's pitiful to see that you have descended to putting words in my mouth


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> You posted "there is at least one antisemitic equivalent: Omar".  You used the words without knowing what they mean?
> 
> It's pitiful to see that you have descended to putting words in my mouth


it’s pitiful to see you not willing to denounce the remarks.  I don’t need to define it: the Jewish community, her colleagues and she herself by being forced to apologize already established that.


----------



## N00B (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> McCarthy has promised to have a talk with her.


He’s spoken with others.









						Steve King Removed From Committee Assignments Over White Supremacy Remark (Published 2019)
					

Republicans voted Monday night to remove Mr. King from the House Judiciary and Agriculture committees after he made remarks questioning why white supremacy is considered offensive.




					www.google.com


----------



## N00B (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> More opinions and accusations.  Here is something she actually tweeted --
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095046561254567937


So apologizing is the standard?









						Marjorie Taylor Greene apologizes to GOP colleagues for past QAnon support
					

McCarthy condemned Greene's comments but made no commitment to punishing her for them.




					www.google.com


----------



## N00B (Feb 6, 2021)

N00B said:


> He’s spoken with others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In all fairness, they likely would have removed her from committees given past precedent.  It was just more politically advantageous to have the other party do it.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> it’s pitiful to see you not willing to denounce the remarks.  I don’t need to define it: the Jewish community, her colleagues and she herself by being forced to apologize already established that.


I can only go by your own declaraation that you don't know what you are talking about,

Getting back to the topic, your abandoned response was to my question "Which ds did you have in mind there? Anything close to Jewish space lasers starting California wildfires?"  Would you like to take another shot at it?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> I can only go by your own declaraation that you don't know what you are talking about,
> 
> Getting back to the topic, your abandoned response was to my question "Which ds did you have in mind there? Anything close to Jewish space lasers starting California wildfires?"  Would you like to take another shot at it?


Still ducking saying anything about Omar’s remarks I see?  Given the implication some may draw that you are an antisemite for failing to say in this objective reality you’ve built that the remarks are bad, it’s a little bit shocking.

and as to your latest gambit, I’m not going to get into a game of which remarks are worse with you.  It should be enough that we are willing to call out bad remarks whoever makes them, yet you seem really reluctant to do that in the case of omar. I’ve said the Omar remarks are bad. Do not our objective realities meet on this point?

Your little yellow car really is lost in the woods this time. Bigly!


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

N00B said:


> In all fairness, they likely would have removed her from committees given past precedent.  It was just more politically advantageous to have the other party do it.


Steven King's remarks are nowhere near as offensive as MTG's.   The Republicans did the right thing with King, but somehow overwhelmingly support the Q-lady's offensiveness,


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Still ducking saying anything about Omar’s remarks I see?  Given the implication some may draw that you are an antisemite for failing to say in this objective reality you’ve built that the remarks are bad, it’s a little bit shocking.
> 
> and as to your latest gambit, I’m not going to get into a game of which remarks are worse with you.  It should be enough that we are willing to call out bad remarks whoever makes them, yet you seem really reluctant to do that in the case of omar. I’ve said the Omar remarks are bad. Do not our objective realities meet on this point?
> 
> Your little yellow car really is lost in the woods this time. Bigly!


You seem to be hinting that I am an anti-semite.  I find that ironically interesting.


----------



## N00B (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> I can only go by your own declaraation that you don't know what you are talking about,
> 
> Getting back to the topic, your abandoned response was to my question "Which ds did you have in mind there? Anything close to Jewish space lasers starting California wildfires?"  Would you like to take another shot at it?


Grace can respond on her own, but seeing as you’re debating in a public forum....

Are you intentionally ignoring the words used and/or are unaware of the derogatory tropes those statements embody? Antisemitism is the same as racism in this regard.

Seems like you’re trying to win the battle but losing the war, so to speak.

I’m sure that tacitly condoning those tropes is not your intent (Grace has suggested several times that you distance yourself from those remarks), but I don’t feel that others @EOTL would be so consolatory.  In fact, I’m shocked that the social justice warrior hasn’t weighed in yet.


----------



## N00B (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Steven King's remarks are nowhere near as offensive as MTG's.   The Republicans did the right thing with King, but somehow overwhelmingly support the Q-lady's offensiveness,


Exactly why I said it was more politically beneficial to have the other party do it.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Steven King's remarks are nowhere near as offensive as MTG's.   The Republicans did the right thing with King, but somehow overwhelmingly support the Q-lady's offensiveness,


You are again making judgments as to which is worse. My principle was that once you go down this road any bad statement will so be punished. I raised the question well what about Omar?  You have repeatedly refused to say her remarks were bad.



espola said:


> You seem to be hinting that I am an anti-semite.  I find that ironically interesting.


hey I’m not the one who is unwilling to denounce Omar’s statements. And both my kids are dating nice Jewish girls (my youngest swears he’s going to convert and marry her some day which would make all of quite happy were we lucky enough to have it happen). Can you say the same?

plus my family is descended on my moms side from the conversos too. While not enough for us to claim Judaism as our own, we do have some blood in the blood line and in our last trip to Toledo toured the synagogues our ancestors worshipped in. It’s why I am taking a little bit of offense you have repeatedly refused to say that what Omar has said is wrong


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

N00B said:


> Grace can respond on her own, but seeing as you’re debating in a public forum....
> 
> Are you intentionally ignoring the words used and/or are unaware of the derogatory tropes those statements embody? Antisemitism is the same as racism in this regard.
> 
> ...


Part of the issue is the left organizes hierarchies of oppression. Since they take the position the Palestinians are more oppressed than the Jews or Israelis it somehow makes it ok for someone more oppressed (supposedly Omar) to criticize them in what would otherwise be an offensive manner (and hence Espolas reluctance to come out and say “yeah those remarks are bad”). For them same reason I doubt we’ll see eotl weigh in here. It’s also why I tend to infuriate them (because I hold more minority credits than most people who go around crying racism)

ill tip my hat though to the person who can make sense and explain espolas objective reality where Omar’s remarks don’t merit condemnation, the anti lockdowners were wrong in the end, and somehow he is a conservative


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

N00B said:


> Grace can respond on her own, but seeing as you’re debating in a public forum....
> 
> Are you intentionally ignoring the words used and/or are unaware of the derogatory tropes those statements embody? Antisemitism is the same as racism in this regard.
> 
> ...


What words do you find offensive and why are they "anti-semitic"?  My response is stalled by Grace's refusal to answer that.  Without that clarification, I don't what I am responding to.

To possibly help narrow the discussion, would you agree that criticizing the behavior of Israel's government is not in itself anti-semitic?


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are again making judgments as to which is worse. My principle was that once you go down this road any bad statement will so be punished. I raised the question well what about Omar?  You have repeatedly refused to say her remarks were bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MTG's behavior is much worse than Steven King's ever was.  That's my judgment, based on objective reality.

It is inappropriate for you to try to skate away from your nebulous comments with unfounded opinions of what I am willing or unwilling to do.

Here is something you may or may not find relevant --





__





						Rick Santorum: A Brief History of the ‘Some of My Best Friends’ Defense
					

Yup, Rick Santorum went there. The former Pennsylvania senator, known for his less-than-enlightened views on gay rights, has opted for the “Some of my best friends…” approach. Earlier this week, when CNN’s Don Lemon asked him if he had any gay friends, Santorum replied enthusiastically: “Yes! In...




					newrepublic.com


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> MTG's behavior is much worse than Steven King's ever was.  That's my judgment, based on objective reality.
> 
> It is inappropriate for you to try to skate away from your nebulous comments with unfounded opinions of what I am willing or unwilling to do.
> 
> ...


ive given you a ton of opportunities yourself to skate away from Omar’s offensive remarks yet you repeatedly refuse to do it, which is in and of itself shockingly offensive. All it takes from you is an admission. I’ll even write it for you: “ I don’t know what antisemitism is, and you’ve refused to define it, but yeah her comments were bad, but I appreciate her apology”

again I don’t care whose remark was worse. That’s not my point. If your point is the rs should have stripped her I’d say ok, but I think the ds should have stripped Omar too. But my point was the majority party making this decision for the minority party is a bad idea because it’s going to be used a lot now because once the principle is set that bad can lead To a strip when the minority party refuses to do it there’s a lot of bad in Congress on both sides of the aisle. You can’t have a limiting principle in a knife fight that something is uniquely bad because uniquely bad is In The eye of the beholder, as you seem to be confirming by your refusal to call out Omar.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> ive given you a ton of opportunities yourself to skate away from Omar’s offensive remarks yet you repeatedly refuse to do it, which is in and of itself shockingly offensive. All it takes from you is an admission. I’ll even write it for you: “ I don’t know what antisemitism is, and you’ve refused to define it, but yeah her comments were bad, but I appreciate her apology”
> 
> again I don’t care whose remark was worse. That’s not my point. If your point is the rs should have stripped her I’d say ok, but I think the ds should have stripped Omar too. But my point was the majority party making this decision for the minority party is a bad idea because it’s going to be used a lot now because once the principle is set that bad can lead To a strip when the minority party refuses to do it there’s a lot of bad in Congress on both sides of the aisle. You can’t have a limiting principle in a knife fight that something is uniquely bad because uniquely bad is In The eye of the beholder, as you seem to be confirming by your refusal to call out Omar.


You're the one who said she didn't know what antisemitism is, not me.  In my experience, that personality characteristic different meanings to different people.  I want to know what you mean before I respond to it.  Isn't that reasonable?

I think any lawyer worth his salt would agree that calling for the assassination of political leaders is a worse crime than making racist comments.

Your opinion on the future behavior of Congress is nonsense.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> You're the one who said she didn't know what antisemitism is, not me.  In my experience, that personality characteristic different meanings to different people.  I want to know what you mean before I respond to it.  Isn't that reasonable?
> 
> I think any lawyer worth his salt would agree that calling for the assassination of political leaders is a worse crime than making racist comments.
> 
> Your opinion on the future behavior of Congress is nonsense.


“oh my dear Magoo you’ve done it again”

It’s not necessary for me to define antisemitism for you to say “yeah those remarks were bad and I don’t agree with them”. It’s shocking and offensive you won’t do that. I think any person who is even half way decent would agree her remarks are offensive.


----------



## espola (Feb 6, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> “oh my dear Magoo you’ve done it again”
> 
> It’s not necessary for me to define antisemitism for you to say “yeah those remarks were bad and I don’t agree with them”. It’s shocking and offensive you won’t do that. I think any person who is even half way decent would agree her remarks are offensive.


 Your Magoo tell is showing.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 6, 2021)

espola said:


> Your Magoo tell is showing.


as was your “nonsense”


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 10, 2021)

Ilhan Omar Accused Of Appropriating Alabama Culture By Marrying Relative
					

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Ilhan Omar has been accused of marrying her brother, a serious allegation. But even more serious is the allegation that by so doing, she may have appropriated Alabama culture.'Ilhan Omar is a disgrace to our country since she married her---hey, wait a minute, that's our...




					babylonbee.com


----------



## espola (Feb 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Ilhan Omar Accused Of Appropriating Alabama Culture By Marrying Relative
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - Ilhan Omar has been accused of marrying her brother, a serious allegation. But even more serious is the allegation that by so doing, she may have appropriated Alabama culture.'Ilhan Omar is a disgrace to our country since she married her---hey, wait a minute, that's our...
> ...


Babylon Bee?


----------



## happy9 (Feb 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Babylon Bee?


For the win.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 10, 2021)

espola said:


> Babylon Bee?


It is a satire site. Should be obvious. Or it is to most of us.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 10, 2021)

Now for a little humor. Or should I say more humor @espola ?


----------



## espola (Feb 10, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> It is a satire site. Should be obvious. Or it is to most of us.


I knew that.  Given the article you quoted, I wasn't sure you did.


----------



## espola (Feb 10, 2021)

espola said:


> I knew that.  Given the article you quoted, I wasn't sure you did.


Here is some BB humor that reminds me of someone --









						First Female Referee Throws Flag On Play But Won’t Say What’s Wrong
					

TAMPA, FL - Sarah Thomas, the first female referee to officiate in a Super Bowl, threw a flag on a play in the second quarter but refused to say what was wrong.'Penalty, on the offense -- you know what, never mind. It's fine,' she said after throwing a flag on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.'Wait --...




					babylonbee.com


----------



## Bruddah IZ (Feb 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Yeah I agree that some days Biden seems old. Then a couple days later he's rolling past reporters on a mountain bike.  If I had to bet, my $10 would be Harris is going to finish out President Biden's 4 year term but who knows. I'll admit Harris somehow isn't the type of politico that makes my heart go pitter-patter- but she is smart and pragmatic. Let's just hope Biden is able to teach her how to do a better running the country then she did running a presidential campaign.
> 
> As to Biden's son? From what I understand Trump was calling up world leaders and threatening American aid if they didn't dig up dirt on Biden's son... and it doesn't seem to me like it lead to much? Sort of like Trumps election fraud commission. That said, if something is 'really' there that somehow wasn't yet uncovered; then of course all bets are off. Though personally I'm doubtful.
> 
> Also I agree Trumps not going to fade away. However to keep himself in the newspapers he is going to naturally have to keep raising the bar in order to inject himself into the conversation. If Mitch thinks he's got a diva on his hands now, I would tell him to buckle his seat belt.


From the cellar to a mountain bike.  Hilarious.


----------



## Bruddah IZ (Feb 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Sorry Crush. You're ranting and I'm going to put you on block for little bit.  Hope you have a nice day.


Tenacious as always.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 10, 2021)

Bruddah IZ said:


> Tenacious as always.


I don't know Bubs, I feel more like a leprechaun living my best life these days? 
Can't explain why, but throwing lightening bolts just doesn't interest me like it used to...


----------



## tenacious (Feb 10, 2021)

Bruddah IZ said:


> From the cellar to a mountain bike.  Hilarious.


In fairness I think it's from the cellar to the mountain bike, and now back to the cellar.
Shite... the only time Biden appears in public these days is to parrot progressive talking points.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 11, 2021)

According to Forbes, both trump (for his phone call pressuring for more votes) and sen warnock (for voter registrations) are under criminal investigation in Georgia.


----------



## espola (Feb 11, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> According to Forbes, both trump (for his phone call pressuring for more votes) and sen warnock (for voter registrations) are under criminal investigation in Georgia.


re Warnock -- "slow to deliver over 1,200 voter registration applications to election officials in 2019."









						Election board investigates Warnock and New Georgia Project
					

The State Election Board voted Wednesday to move forward with a case against Sen. Raphael Warnock and the New Georgia Project. An investigator for the secretary of state's office said the New Georgia Project failed to return voter registration applications within 10 days after they were filled out.




					www.ajc.com


----------



## crush (Feb 11, 2021)

espola said:


> re Warnock -- "slow to deliver over 1,200 voter registration applications to election officials in 2019."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How's the soccer games going down in San Diego?


----------



## Bruddah IZ (Feb 11, 2021)

crush said:


> How's the soccer games going down in San Diego?


Good.  We have games this weekend at the Oceanside fields.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 11, 2021)

crush said:


> How's the soccer games going down in San Diego?


Do you mean ‘matches’?


----------



## crush (Feb 11, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do you mean ‘matches’?


No, just games.  No score to keep, just play at local park like their doing in oc.  Games are going on all time.  I go play a basketball game.  Matches are for tennis....lol.  I see your point.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

The new schools guidance from the Biden admin for schools looks like is going to replicate California, except maybe be slightly looser for the color tiers.  Given that 65+ will be fully vaccinated within the next 2 months, the existence of a tier system, ongoing mask and 6 ft requirement means they don't anticipate schools getting back to normal any time soon (it says these restrictions are to continue even after teachers are vaccinated).  For most public schools, full time is impossible for a 6 ft requirement.  At this point, if these become final, it's clear the Biden admin has caved to the teacher's unions and everywhere is California (except those red and some blue states that disregard the guidance).  I could take the impeachment, the EOs, the double masks, the foreign policy changes, the spending plan, but I'm off the unity train if this happens.  This is not following the science.  

Note too that the guidance expressly says that school reopenings are to be given priority over extracurriculars over sports.  There will also be equity restrictions in them (which speculation here, but in LA County have been used to nail the private and charter schools).









						Biden administration releases school reopening guidance with color-coded zones
					

CDC director says guidance is "free from political meddling."




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## watfly (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The new schools guidance from the Biden admin for schools looks like is going to replicate California, except maybe be slightly looser for the color tiers.  Given that 65+ will be fully vaccinated within the next 2 months, the existence of a tier system, ongoing mask and 6 ft requirement means they don't anticipate schools getting back to normal any time soon (it says these restrictions are to continue even after teachers are vaccinated).  For most public schools, full time is impossible for a 6 ft requirement.  At this point, if these become final, it's clear the Biden admin has caved to the teacher's unions and everywhere is California (except those red and some blue states that disregard the guidance).  I could take the impeachment, the EOs, the double masks, the foreign policy changes, the spending plan, but I'm off the unity train if this happens.  This is not following the science.
> 
> Note too that the guidance expressly says that school reopenings are to be given priority over extracurriculars over sports.  There will also be equity restrictions in them (which speculation here, but in LA County have been used to nail the private and charter schools).
> 
> ...


I think a lot of you are being unfair to Biden particularly when it comes to school.  He's pretty aggressive and setting some lofty goals for getting kids back in schools.  He wants the majority of schools to have in-person learning at least 1 day a week within the next 100 days.  Getting a vaccine in 10 months, when it normally takes 5-10 years, is nothing compared to getting the majority of schools open 1 day a week in 100 days.

FYI 66% of schools are currently open for 1 day a week of in-person learning.


----------



## dad4 (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The new schools guidance from the Biden admin for schools looks like is going to replicate California, except maybe be slightly looser for the color tiers.  Given that 65+ will be fully vaccinated within the next 2 months, the existence of a tier system, ongoing mask and 6 ft requirement means they don't anticipate schools getting back to normal any time soon (it says these restrictions are to continue even after teachers are vaccinated).  For most public schools, full time is impossible for a 6 ft requirement.  At this point, if these become final, it's clear the Biden admin has caved to the teacher's unions and everywhere is California (except those red and some blue states that disregard the guidance).  I could take the impeachment, the EOs, the double masks, the foreign policy changes, the spending plan, *but I'm off the unity train if this happens*.  This is not following the science.
> 
> Note too that the guidance expressly says that school reopenings are to be given priority over extracurriculars over sports.  There will also be equity restrictions in them (which speculation here, but in LA County have been used to nail the private and charter schools).
> 
> ...


Wait, _you’re_ on the unity train?

We must be in different compartments.  Welcome aboard.  

Hope you brought your own vodka.  The Stoli in the observation car is seriously overpriced.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Wait, _you’re_ on the unity train?
> 
> We must be in different compartments.  Welcome aboard.
> 
> Hope you brought your own vodka.  The Stoli in the observation car is seriously overpriced.


Oh I’m always on the unity train at first. I’ve written before I always give the president the benefit of the doubt. I’m off now (assuming these go through). Despite promising me a first class seat they forced me into steerage. That stoli was close to the final straw but the double mask requirement on that train irked me more.  Now that we are bypassing the schools reopening metro (despite promises it would be a prioritized stop) I’m off. Now where is that de santis express???


----------



## dad4 (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh I’m always on the unity train at first. I’ve written before I always give the president the benefit of the doubt. I’m off now (assuming these go through). Despite promising me a first class seat they forced me into steerage. That stoli was close to the final straw but the double mask requirement on that train irked me more.  Now that we are bypassing the schools reopening metro (despite promises it would be a prioritized stop) I’m off. Now where is that de santis express???


Stay with us a while longer.  Cat Stevens is hosting a concert in the lounge car tonight.

I think you’re misreading the color scheme.  It can be used to justify continued closure, but also gives local school boards a lever to use to push for opening schools.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Stay with us a while longer.  Cat Stevens is hosting a concert in the lounge car tonight.
> 
> I think you’re misreading the color scheme.  It can be used to justify continued closure, but also gives local school boards a lever to use to push for opening schools.


It depends what they tie it to.  If it's cases, for the reasons we've discussed before a.n., then no.  Even then I'd still give it to you, but for the rest which seems a clear and evident reversal of the previous CDC position.

Cat Steves?  Way to get me off faster....I hear there's country music on the De Santis express.


----------



## dad4 (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It depends what they tie it to.  If it's cases, for the reasons we've discussed before a.n., then no.  Even then I'd still give it to you, but for the rest which seems a clear and evident reversal of the previous CDC position.
> 
> Cat Steves?  Way to get me off faster....I hear there's country music on the De Santis express.


We have country.  Dixie Chicks play Wednesday.

Why care what they tie it to?  All the measures go up and down together.  Some are leading, some are lagging, but if one is bad they are all bad.

My bet is the measure is cases, which will give most districts the lever they need in a month or two.  He wasn’t going a fight with the NEA faster than that anyway.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

dad4 said:


> We have country.  Dixie Chicks play Wednesday.
> 
> Why care what they tie it to?  All the measures go up and down together.  Some are leading, some are lagging, but if one is bad they are all bad.
> 
> My bet is the measure is cases, which will give most districts the lever they need in a month or two.  He wasn’t going a fight with the NEA faster than that anyway.


Err....the vaccines are helpful in preventing hospitalizations/death.  They may be less effective in preventing cases, particularly as we get more variants.  And you yourself in math I've regarded highly pointed out we may be a race against a spring wave.  If it's hospitalziations/death it means we get back to normal quickly because those will fall to negligible proportions..  If it's cases, it means no return to normal any time soon because cases will exist for years.  The question then becomes how sensitive.


----------



## dad4 (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Err....the vaccines are helpful in preventing hospitalizations/death.  They may be less effective in preventing cases, particularly as we get more variants.  And you yourself in math I've regarded highly pointed out we may be a race against a spring wave.  If it's hospitalziations/death it means we get back to normal quickly because those will fall to negligible proportions..  If it's cases, it means no return to normal any time soon because cases will exist for years.  The question then becomes how sensitive.


Cases exist for years is different from cases are high for years.  

Any national case threshold will probably be above 2 per 100k and below 20 per 100k.

Take a look at your upper midwest graphs.  The time between 2 and 20 is measured in weeks, not years.  You get mostly the same schools result either way.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Cases exist for years is different from cases are high for years.
> 
> Any national case threshold will probably be above 2 per 100k and below 20 per 100k.
> 
> Take a look at your upper midwest graphs.  The time between 2 and 20 is measured in weeks, not years.  You get mostly the same schools result either way.


Yeah, but the 6 foot requirement is enough to keep most public schools on a hybrid model next year (assuming they follow the guidance).

We will still get surges too (as your own math showed) as new variants emerge which the vaccines are not capable of stopping 100%

This is a prescription for the disruption of schools for years.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Oh I’m always on the unity train at first. I’ve written before I always give the president the benefit of the doubt. I’m off now (assuming these go through). Despite promising me a first class seat they forced me into steerage. That stoli was close to the final straw but the double mask requirement on that train irked me more.  Now that we are bypassing the schools reopening metro (despite promises it would be a prioritized stop) I’m off. Now where is that de santis express???


I’m officially off this train. I’m on the Gallup survey list. Voted disapprove today for the first time. Did that a lot for t too.


----------



## espola (Feb 12, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’m officially off this train. I’m on the Gallup survey list. Voted disapprove today for the first time. Did that a lot for t too.











						How Popular Is Joe Biden?
					

Latest polls on President Joe Biden’s approval ratings




					projects.fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## Glitterhater (Feb 12, 2021)

espola said:


> How Popular Is Joe Biden?
> 
> 
> Latest polls on President Joe Biden’s approval ratings
> ...


I'm not surprised to see this at THIS moment- I'd be anxious to see where this is a couple more months in.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 12, 2021)

espola said:


> How Popular Is Joe Biden?
> 
> 
> Latest polls on President Joe Biden’s approval ratings
> ...


I was one of the approve until today.


----------



## espola (Feb 12, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I'm not surprised to see this at THIS moment- I'd be anxious to see where this is a couple more months in.


He hasn't done anything crazy or illegal yet.  People might appreciate that for a change.

It's also illuminating to look down the page at the history of the popularity of preceding Presidents.  It's apparently really hard to get above 50%.


----------



## Glitterhater (Feb 12, 2021)

espola said:


> He hasn't done anything crazy or illegal yet.  People might appreciate that for a change.
> 
> It's also illuminating to look down the page at the history of the popularity of preceding Presidents.  It's apparently really hard to get above 50%.


I think his calming demeanor is helping him, yes. T was pretty polarizing and I think people are looking for calm.
However, calm can only get you so far. I will root for him like I root for every one in office.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 13, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I think his calming demeanor is helping him, yes. T was pretty polarizing and I think people are looking for calm.
> However, calm can only get you so far. I will root for him like I root for every one in office.


We all hope the president will succeed. We did with Obama but his potential was never fully developed and he didn’t please everyone, but he tried. We did with trump, but he never really “became presidential” (as that was deemed boring perhaps) the constant trampling of norms (like saying he loved murderous dictators), blatant improprieties and the fact he never tried to please anyone accept his hardcore base (hoping others would fall in?) playing to fear and white grievance doomed him. Then of course there was the whole downplaying of a global pandemic thing.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 13, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> We all hope the president will succeed. We did with Obama but his potential was never fully developed and he didn’t please everyone, but he tried. We did with trump, but he never really “became presidential” (as that was deemed boring perhaps) the constant trampling of norms (like saying he loved murderous dictators), blatant improprieties and the fact he never tried to please anyone accept his hardcore base (hoping others would fall in?) playing to fear and white grievance doomed him. Then of course there was the whole downplaying of a global pandemic thing.


Your bias is showing. Obama started the entire norm smashing thing (fillibuster nuke for judges, eos), pandered to the base and straw manning, and engaged in less serious improprieties (you can keep your health insurance, the russiagate thing, the irs thing). Trump took it to a new level (the base was tired of rs not fighting back and wanted a brawler instead of someone that appeared presidential).  Biden, despite that some portion of voters voted for him as a caretaker who would return things back to normal, seems intent on taking things even further.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 13, 2021)

Trump acquitted. Ds seem to have gotten scared at the prospect of witnesses. I liked McConnell’s speech...thought it was right on.


----------



## Glitterhater (Feb 13, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump acquitted. Ds seem to have gotten scared at the prospect of witnesses. I liked McConnell’s speech...thought it was right on.


I don't know a single person who actually thought he was going to be impeached. I know alot of D's and we all thought it was a shot in the dark.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 13, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> I don't know a single person who actually thought he was going to be impeached. I know alot of D's and we all thought it was a shot in the dark.


I’m just surprised the ds folded so quickly. My father was just arguing to me this morning it would take another week.


----------



## espola (Feb 13, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump acquitted. Ds seem to have gotten scared at the prospect of witnesses. I liked McConnell’s speech...thought it was right on.


The House managers proposed one witness to settle a dispute about the content of a phone call between t and McCarthy.  The defendant's lawyer agreed to accept the main points of the witness' evidence by stipulation.  No witness needed.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump acquitted. Ds seem to have gotten scared at the prospect of witnesses. I liked McConnell’s speech...thought it was right on.


The local news is playing video of some congressman  whose name I didnt catch saying when they were negotiating witnesses, the first witness on the Republican's list was Nancy Pelosi. And rather than turn things into a circus, when the verdict wasn't in doubt, they opted for no witnesses.

Personally I think Dems should have jumped on the offer.  I don't think Nancy has Mitch's gift when it comes to finding legislative results. But rather then being above testifying; I think she'd have been better served to put on some fresh lipstick, take a deep breath... and then march down the hall and kick some ass.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> We all hope the president will succeed. We did with Obama but his potential was never fully developed and he didn’t please everyone, but he tried. We did with trump, but he never really “became presidential” (as that was deemed boring perhaps) the constant trampling of norms (like saying he loved murderous dictators), blatant improprieties and the fact he never tried to please anyone accept his hardcore base (hoping others would fall in?) playing to fear and white grievance doomed him. Then of course there was the whole downplaying of a global pandemic thing.


Yes, I think you're right. But so far, what sign have you seen that this is going to be different under Biden?

For me it feels like its been little more then executive orders and comments about how he doesn't trust Republican moderates to be reliable allies, because of his experience while writing the Affordable Cares Act.  And that strikes me as not too different from what I saw under Trump. Maybe it wasn't delivered as a tweet... but still.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> The local news is playing video of some congressman  whose name I didnt catch saying when they were negotiating witnesses, the first witness on the Republican's list was Nancy Pelosi. And rather than turn things into a circus, when the verdict wasn't in doubt, they opted for no witnesses.
> 
> Personally I think Dems should have jumped on the offer.  I don't think Nancy has Mitch's gift when it comes to finding legislative results. But rather then being above testifying; I think she'd have been better served to put on some fresh lipstick, take a deep breath... and then march down the hall and kick some ass.



Re-reading this and want to make sure I clarify that the lipstick comment was to say she should take a moment to get herself ready and then go testify. Put her career on the line, to prove how serious it is to her and the country.

Clunking heads together is something that's in her wheelhouse.  And I think this would be a bold move that could have changed the needle. A bold move that she had a good chance of winning.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trump acquitted. Ds seem to have gotten scared at the prospect of witnesses. I liked McConnell’s speech...thought it was right on.


Seems you believe what the ambulance chaser said, best lawyer trump could hire, lol! Why even bother they were never gonna get 17 Republicans. trump 2024.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Yes, I think you're right. But so far, what sign have you seen that this is going to be different under Biden?
> 
> For me it feels like its been little more then executive orders and comments about how he doesn't trust Republican moderates to be reliable allies, because of his experience while writing the Affordable Cares Act.  And that strikes me as not too different from what I saw under Trump. Maybe it wasn't delivered as a tweet... but still.


Biden has a tall mountain to climb to reset American policy to a more sane long haul vision. Then he will be a game manager.


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> The House managers proposed one witness to settle a dispute about the content of a phone call between t and McCarthy.  The defendant's lawyer agreed to accept the main points of the witness' evidence by stipulation.  No witness needed.


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Re-reading this and want to make sure I clarify that the lipstick comment was to say she should take a moment to get herself ready and then go testify. Put her career on the line, to prove how serious it is to her and the country.
> 
> Clunking heads together is something that's in her wheelhouse.  And I think this would be a bold move that could have changed the needle. A bold move that she had a good chance of winning.


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Biden has a tall mountain to climb to reset American policy to a more sane long haul vision. Then he will be a game manager.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Seems you believe what the ambulance chaser said, best lawyer trump could hire, lol! Why even bother they were never gonna get 17 Republicans. trump 2024.


He did a very good job for an ambulance lawyer. He made the case the evidence didn’t support the single charge, was very effective in pointing out the d hypocrisy, was very effective in pointing out the ds messed with the evidence and held his own on the witness battle. Credit where credit is due.

politically he also served trumps outsider narrative by not being in the Harvard class.  Increasingly the battle within the Republican Party (and bad news for Ted) is that it will be this outsiders class v the Ivy League insiders.


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He did a very good job for an ambulance lawyer. He made the case the evidence didn’t support the single charge, was very effective in pointing out the d hypocrisy, was very effective in pointing out the ds messed with the evidence and held his own on the witness battle. Credit where credit is due.
> 
> politically he also served trumps outsider narrative by not being in the Harvard class.  Increasingly the battle within the Republican Party (and bad news for Ted) is that it will be this outsiders class v the Ivy League insiders.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He did a very good job for an ambulance lawyer. He made the case the evidence didn’t support the single charge, was very effective in pointing out the d hypocrisy, was very effective in pointing out the ds messed with the evidence and held his own on the witness battle. Credit where credit is due.
> 
> politically he also served trumps outsider narrative by not being in the Harvard class.  Increasingly the battle within the Republican Party (and bad news for Ted) is that it will be this outsiders class v the Ivy League insiders.


It's not so much of an accomplishment to win when the defense lawyer has regular meetings with members of the jury.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It's not so much of an accomplishment to win when the defense lawyer has regular meetings with members of the jury.


you guys will never be happy.  Busker just slammed him for being an ambulance lawyer. The ambulance lawyer went toe To toe and got the better of the Harvard lawyers including one of my younger brothers roommates


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It's not so much of an accomplishment to win when the defense lawyer has regular meetings with members of the jury.


Please give this to you know who, you know who Im talking about, right?  I can;t mention his name or respond to him.  I made a vow and a promise I plan to keep.  Please kindly let him know I was thinking about him and wishing him a beautiful Valentines Day.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> you guys will never be happy.  Busker just slammed him for being an ambulance lawyer. The ambulance lawyer went toe To toe and got the better of the Harvard lawyers including one of my younger brothers roommates


Grading on a curve?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Grading on a curve?


If it’s a curve then I hate to see the grade the house managers got.  They did well the first day but otherwise got played. Given their credentials they should have, if you believe Busker, blown out the ambulance lawyer out of the water.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If it’s a curve then I hate to see the grade the house managers got.  They did well the first day but otherwise got played. Given their credentials they should have, if you believe Busker, blown out the ambulance lawyer out of the water.


The defense lawyers started the trial with assurance from the jury that they couldn't lose.  They didn't lose.  

A truer test for t's defense lawyers will come soon in various criminal and civil courts.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> The defense lawyers started the trial with assurance from the jury that they couldn't lose.  They didn't lose.
> 
> A truer test for t's defense lawyers will come soon in various criminal and civil courts.


still losing the thread here aren’t you?  Busker was making fun of the lawyers legal acumen. They did a good job. The result is totally besides the point since you yourself said it was preordained. The question is what is the quality of the case they presented.  Any future cases are irrelevant to that analysis


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> still losing the thread here aren’t you?  Busker was making fun of the lawyers legal acumen. They did a good job. The result is totally besides the point since you yourself said it was preordained. The question is what is the quality of the case they presented.  Any future cases are irrelevant to that analysis


He started with 45 votes in his pocket and ended up with 43.

What parts of the defense lawyers' presentation do you feel exhibited high-quality legal practice?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> He started with 45 votes in his pocket and ended up with 43.
> 
> What parts of the defense lawyers' presentation do you feel exhibited high-quality legal practice?


again the result isn’t necessarily tied to the quality of the presentation.You are confusing this. The guy did a good job and embarrassed a bunch of Ivy League educated lawyers. True a spectacular performance should have turned even Romney.  I’m not arguing the guy is Clarence Darrow. But for some tort lawyer he did a bang up job. For some Ivy League educated eggheads the managers did poorly.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> again the result isn’t necessarily tied to the quality of the presentation.You are confusing this. The guy did a good job and embarrassed a bunch of Ivy League educated lawyers. True a spectacular performance should have turned even Romney.  I’m not arguing the guy is Clarence Darrow. But for some tort lawyer he did a bang up job. For some Ivy League educated eggheads the managers did poorly.


You are presenting your conclusions without any evidence.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You are presenting your conclusions without any evidence.


I trust my eyes.  Careful now how you answer. You’ll make it too easy.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I trust my eyes.  Careful now how you answer. You’ll make it too easy.


Do you care to explain the details of "The guy did a good job and embarrassed a bunch of Ivy League educated lawyers"?


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> It's not so much of an accomplishment to win when the defense lawyer has regular meetings with members of the jury.


I suppose you are unaware that the Dems in the Senate meet regularly with the House members in charge of impeachment? Does that upset you?

And none of them are jurors by the way.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I suppose you are unaware that the Dems in the Senate meet regularly with the House members in charge of impeachment? Does that upset you?
> 
> And none of them are jurors by the way.


Jurors ore those who in a procedure known as a trial, after hearing the evidence, they vote Guilty or Not Guilty.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He did a very good job for an ambulance lawyer. He made the case the evidence didn’t support the single charge, was very effective in pointing out the d hypocrisy, was very effective in pointing out the ds messed with the evidence and held his own on the witness battle. Credit where credit is due.
> 
> politically he also served trumps outsider narrative by not being in the Harvard class.  Increasingly the battle within the Republican Party (and bad news for Ted) is that it will be this outsiders class v the Ivy League insiders.


That’s what he said and you swallowed. Moscow Mitch did not, he opted out on a process excuse . . . the excuse he made sure was there.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Do you care to explain the details of "The guy did a good job and embarrassed a bunch of Ivy League educated lawyers"?


already did


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That’s what he said and you swallowed. Moscow Mitch did not, he opted out on a process excuse . . . the excuse he made sure was there.


The ds didn’t prove incitement. Could have charged him with something else but they didn’t.  Mitch was right on busker.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He did a very good job for an ambulance lawyer. He made the case the evidence didn’t support the single charge, was very effective in pointing out the d hypocrisy, was very effective in pointing out the ds messed with the evidence and held his own on the witness battle. Credit where credit is due.
> 
> politically he also served trumps outsider narrative by not being in the Harvard class.  Increasingly the battle within the Republican Party (and bad news for Ted) is that it will be this outsiders class v the Ivy League insiders.


There is a reason the Ivy Leaguers have been in charge and are the “insiders” and the ambulance chasers are advertising on TV.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The ds didn’t prove incitement. Could have charged him with something else but they didn’t.  Mitch was right on busker.


Yes, Mitch acknowledged that trump was guilty as sin and even laid out the ground work for future criminal and civil cases.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Do you care to explain the details of "The guy did a good job and embarrassed a bunch of Ivy League educated lawyers"?


The guy lied his add off and, as we already have seen play out thousands of times, the suckers swallowed in hook line and sinker.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Jurors ore those who in a procedure known as a trial, after hearing the evidence, they vote Guilty or Not Guilty.


Jurors don't get to talk to the press, ask questions, etc etc. Senators do. 

Regular jurors are not supposed to know each other - not so here. Regular jurors cannot overrule the judge - not so here. Regular jurors do not decide what evidence should be heard or the standards of evidence, nor do they decide on witnesses or what witnesses shall be called - not so here. Regular jurors do not decide when a trial is to be ended - not so here.

I notice you evaded the question about the Dems in the Senate conferring with the prosecutors...aka the House managers. 

Or do you have different standards if an R or a D is involved?


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> already did


You gave the conclusion without evidence.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I trust my eyes.  Careful now how you answer. You’ll make it too easy.


So a hunch based on a gut feeling, how trumpian of you.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Jurors don't get to talk to the press, ask questions, etc etc. Senators do.
> 
> Regular jurors are not supposed to know each other - not so here. Regular jurors cannot overrule the judge - not so here. Regular jurors do not decide what evidence should be heard or the standards of evidence, nor do they decide on witnesses or what witnesses shall be called - not so here. Regular jurors do not decide when a trial is to be ended - not so here.
> 
> ...


The terms "jurors" and  "jury" did not originate with me.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So a hunch based on a gut feeling, how trumpian of you.


Nothing new.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So a hunch based on a gut feeling, how trumpian of you.





espola said:


> You gave the conclusion without evidence.


It’s all opinion. It’s funny you guys think evidence can prove it.  I already laid out the substantiation for my opinion


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yes, Mitch acknowledged that trump was guilty as sin and even laid out the ground work for future criminal and civil cases.


He said trump wasn’t guilty if the charge leveled. Laid out other thing at his feet.  All accurate. It’s hilarious you can’t comprehend that


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It’s all opinion. It’s funny you guys think evidence can prove it.  I already laid out the substantiation for my opinion


You haven't presented anything except your opinion.  There is no "substantiation".


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You haven't presented anything except your opinion.  There is no "substantiation".


Because it is an opinion.  Duh


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He said trump wasn’t guilty if the charge leveled. Laid out other thing at his feet.  All accurate. It’s hilarious you can’t comprehend that


Mitch stuck by the technicality of the Constitutionality question to explain his Not Guilty vote, then seemed to support a criminal indictment based on the same evidence presented in the impeachment trial.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> There is a reason the Ivy Leaguers have been in charge and are the “insiders” and the ambulance chasers are advertising on TV.


yeah and it’s why you got trump.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because it is an opinion.  Duh


You said that you "laid out the substantiation".  What was that?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You said that you "laid out the substantiation".  What was that?


I’m not going to endless repeat myself because you get lost and can’t follow. See above


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Mitch stuck by the technicality of the Constitutionality question to explain his Not Guilty vote, then seemed to support a criminal indictment based on the same evidence presented in the impeachment trial.


he did not lay out a case for incitement. He laid out a case for other criminal actions and for moral condemnation.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’m not going to endless repeat myself because you get lost and can’t follow. See above


Still nothing.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Still nothing.


Still not comprehending.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> he did not lay out a case for incitement. He laid out a case for other criminal actions and for moral condemnation.


I think a non-partisan DC jury might have a different opinion than 43 partisan Senators.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Still not comprehending.


You said it was just your opinion.  I agree with that.  You also said that you had provided substantiation.  That is not true.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You said it was just your opinion.  I agree with that.  You also said that you had provided substantiation.  That is not true.


I did. See above


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> I think a non-partisan DC jury might have a different opinion than 43 partisan Senators.


Dc jury?  Probably. Remember even oj got off. The outcome though is dependent on greater aspects than just performance which (like so many things) you fail to comprehend.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I did. See above





espola said:


> You haven't presented anything except your opinion.  There is no "substantiation".





Grace T. said:


> Because it is an opinion.  Duh


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Dc jury?  Probably. Remember even oj got off. The outcome though is dependent on greater aspects than just performance which (like so many things) you fail to comprehend.


What is it that I fail to comprehend?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> What is it that I fail to comprehend?


The difference between an opinion and a proveable fact. I gave you the basis for my opinion


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> The terms "jurors" and  "jury" did not originate with me.


I see again you avoided answering the D question. You seemed upset Rs talked with Ts attorneys, yet remain quiet with Ds do the same thing with the prosecution side. 

Why is that?


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The difference between an opinion and a proveable fact. I gave you the basis for my opinion


You laid on the opinion pretty thick, but really thin with the basis.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You laid on the opinion pretty thick, but really thin with the basis.


Well it’s an opinion and you are free to agree. I think it’s pretty self evident. Your grasp on reality is also a lot thinner than mind as far as opinions go.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Well it’s an opinion and you are free to agree. I think it’s pretty self evident. Your grasp on reality is also a lot thinner than mind as far as opinions go.


Do you mean that his "legal acumen" is "self-evident"?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Do you mean that his "legal acumen" is "self-evident"?


I’m saying he did a good job with the cards dealt.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’m saying he did a good job with the cards dealt.


And as I have pointed out, he was dealt a winning hand.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> And as I have pointed out, he was dealt a winning hand.


Yeah but he played well with it despite buskers claim he was only an ambulance chaser.  You got it!  Good for you.  Well done.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> And as I have pointed out, he was dealt a winning hand.


The dems dealt the rs a winning hand.

For starters impeachment is used for removal of office. T is already gone.

That should have been the first tell.

The 2nd is that the impeachment process for Presidents requires the Chief Justice to preside.

The 2nd tell should have been when the Chief Justice refused to participate.

Then when they put Leahy in charge as the presiding judge, the full farce was on.

That was the 3rd tell


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah but he played well with it despite buskers claim he was only an ambulance chaser.  You got it!  Good for you.  Well done.


Apparently, you didn't comprehend that I was disagreeing with you.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Apparently, you didn't comprehend that I was disagreeing with you.


Shoot you were so close to actually getting it for a change. Too bad. Some cases are hopeless (small pun there).


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The dems dealt the rs a winning hand.
> 
> For starters impeachment is used for removal of office. T is already gone.
> 
> ...


Yeah then they just got really sloppy with the handling of witnesses, when they were caught slanting the evidence, and when they got caught in their hypocrisy. Not good at all.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah then they just got really sloppy with the handling of witnesses, when they were caught slanting the evidence, and when they got caught in their hypocrisy. Not good at all.


More opinions?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> More opinions?


Sure though if you apply dads standard mine is a professional one.


----------



## crush (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Sure though if you apply dads standard mine is a professional one.


I bet some time later today or tomorrow, Epola evil twin bro will appear and will start going off on you.  I hope you see what I sea?


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Sure though if you apply dads standard mine is a professional one.


Can you provide some professional discussion on how you arrived at those conclusions?


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> More opinions?


They were caught changing the date of a trump tweet.

If you need to falsify evidence, that tells you they didn't have much of a case.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Can you provide some professional discussion on how you arrived at those conclusions?


no thanks.  You aren’t a colleague. My brother and I though did laugh about his roommate. Suffice it to say it’s not like they are proud of their performance


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no thanks.  You aren’t a colleague. My brother and I though did laugh about his roommate. Suffice it to say it’s not like they are proud of their performance


You can't put it in words that we little people can understand?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> You can't put it in words that we little people can understand?


I can’t put it in words that YOU can understand


----------



## Glitterhater (Feb 14, 2021)

Not sure what the argument is really over but I get what Grace is saying. Sometimes you can be too polished, too "book smart" and fail to see the forrest thru the trees, (so to speak.)


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Glitterhater said:


> Not sure what the argument is really over but I get what Grace is saying. Sometimes you can be too polished, too "book smart" and fail to see the forrest thru the trees, (so to speak.)


What is Grace saying?


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I can’t put it in words that YOU can understand


Yes, you can.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Yes, you can.


Youve shown time and time again you can’t.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> What is Grace saying?


Errrr....”roadhog”....crash!


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Youve shown time and time again you can’t.


No, I haven't.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Errrr....”roadhog”....crash!


Your tell is showing.


----------



## MicPaPa (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> I think a non-partisan DC jury might have a different opinion than 43 partisan Senators.


Over 90% of DC vote left...but non-partisan. LOL! Good one magoo!


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Your tell is showing.


My tell only comes into effect when you’ve totally crashed off the road. It says as much about where I am as where you are. “Crash!”


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> No, I haven't.


Yes you have.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He said trump wasn’t guilty if the charge leveled. Laid out other thing at his feet.  All accurate. It’s hilarious you can’t comprehend that


The only thing I am having trouble comprehending was that post of yours. Would you like to try again? Or is that some attempt at shop talk, either way, weak.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Dc jury?  Probably. Remember even oj got off. The outcome though is dependent on greater aspects than just performance which (like so many things) you fail to comprehend.


And what happened in the Brown/Goldman civil suit against the juice?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The only thing I am having trouble comprehending was that post of yours. Would you like to try again? Or is that some attempt at shop talk, either way, weak.


Cant help it if you comprehend. Mcconnell conceded the evidence didn’t hold to the level of criminal incitement.  Felt trump could have been charge with something else (like recklessness) if still in office and his behavior immoral. I already said I agreed.  I’ve been saying for a while the ds made a tactical mistake in that regard. I liked the McConnell speech


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And what happened in the Brown/Goldman civil suit against the juice?


Different jury (take a guess as to one of the differences).  Different standard too


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> More opinions?


That’s what the ‘Philadelphia lawyer’ claimed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Cant help it if you comprehend. Mcconnell conceded the evidence didn’t hold to the level of criminal incitement.  Felt trump could have been charge with something else (like recklessness) if still in office and his behavior immoral. I already said I agreed.  I’ve been saying for a while the ds made a tactical mistake in that regard. I liked the McConnell speech


You like the speech in the context of the way you misrepresented it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Different jury (take a guess as to one of the differences).  Different standard too


So good luck mr trump.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You like the speech in the context of the way you misrepresented it.


Hey I can’t help what your fevered delusions misunderstand


----------



## NorCalDad (Feb 14, 2021)

Pretty sure a pile of poop could've been Trump's legal representation and still won.  Not sure why this discussion is so complicated.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> Pretty sure a pile of poop could've been Trump's legal representation and still won.  Not sure why this discussion is so complicated.


Because there's a bunch of different questions:
1. Which lawyer's did a better job?  Answer: Trump's lawyers did...the House managers underperformed.  Busker slighted the Trump lawyer by saying he was an ambulance chaser.  He gave a pretty good case despite not being one of the Ivy League grads and did a better job than they did.
2. Was Trump guilty?  Answer: No.  He did not incite the crowd under the legal definition of incitement.  The House managers could have brought a different charge, but they didn't.  Trump was acquitted of the charge.
3., Who was going to win?  Answer: Given the charge levelled, the outcome was pretty much preordained.
4. Was it a good idea then to bring the impeachment charge for incitement?  Answer: Unclear.  Depends on whether you believe in moral victories.  Tactically it didn't work out great for the Ds  (see 2 above).   Their consolation prize is dividing the establishment and populist wings of the R.
5. Did the Senate have the authority to remove a President no longer sitting?  Answer: Unclear but neither McConnell nor Roberts seem to think so.
7. Does that mean that Trump didn't do anything wrong?  Answer: No., and that's where McConnell's speech was brilliant.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because there's a bunch of different questions:
> 1. Which lawyer's did a better job?  Answer: Trump's lawyers did...the House managers underperformed.  Busker slighted the Trump lawyer by saying he was an ambulance chaser.  He gave a pretty good case despite not being one of the Ivy League grads and did a better job than they did.
> 2. Was Trump guilty?  Answer: No.  He did not incite the crowd under the legal definition of incitement.  The House managers could have brought a different charge, but they didn't.  Trump was acquitted of the charge.
> 3., Who was going to win?  Answer: Given the charge levelled, the outcome was pretty much preordained.
> ...


1. Your opinion, from a decidedly minority position.   The laughter directed at the defense lawyers wasn't confined to the Senate Chamber.
2. Another opinion, especially since this was an impeachment trial which is fundamentally political in nature.
3. Agree.
4. The charge was appropriate for the crime.
5. Yes.  There is a settled precedent.
6.  What happened to 6?  Did you delete your errors about Roberts?
7.  Agree.


----------



## NorCalDad (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because there's a bunch of different questions:
> 1. Which lawyer's did a better job?  Answer: Trump's lawyers did...the House managers underperformed.  Busker slighted the Trump lawyer by saying he was an ambulance chaser.  He gave a pretty good case despite not being one of the Ivy League grads and did a better job than they did.
> 2. Was Trump guilty?  Answer: No.  He did not incite the crowd under the legal definition of incitement.  The House managers could have brought a different charge, but they didn't.  Trump was acquitted of the charge.
> 3., Who was going to win?  Answer: Given the charge levelled, the outcome was pretty much preordained.
> ...


I don't think anyone ever thought the Ds would get enough Rs to join in.  I didn't.  If nothing else, it shows how our representative democracy is a complete failure.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> 1. Your opinion, from a decidedly minority position.   The laughter directed at the defense lawyers wasn't confined to the Senate Chamber.
> 2. Another opinion, especially since this was an impeachment trial which is fundamentally political in nature.
> 3. Agree.
> 4. The charge was appropriate for the crime.
> ...


5. What is the settled precedent?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> 1. Your opinion, from a decidedly minority position.   The laughter directed at the defense lawyers wasn't confined to the Senate Chamber.
> 2. Another opinion, especially since this was an impeachment trial which is fundamentally political in nature.
> 3. Agree.
> 4. The charge was appropriate for the crime.
> ...


As to 1 it’s a professional opinion which if dad is correct means more than yours. My bro thought it was pretty funny his roommate got schooled by a trial lawyer. 

2 is not an opinion.  It is now a fact since the senate agreed

4 there is no crime here. This didn’t rise to the level of incitement and didn’t meet the legal standards here

6 I’m doing multiple things here. You don’t require a very large portion of my brain power nor do you merit my full attention


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> 5. What is the settled precedent?


hes citing the post hoc removal of some judges iirc. There’s some issues with that precedent though and the chief seemed to agree but now that the senate has voted the precedent has been irrevocably changed.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I don't think anyone ever thought the Ds would get enough Rs to join in.  I didn't.  If nothing else, it shows how our representative democracy is a complete failure.


The ds failure to understand that the legal charge of incitement wasn’t met but joining in anyways in a desire to punish trump certain does show our democracy is a complete failure especially since a lot of them including the vp are guilty of similar conduct


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> 5. What is the settled precedent?


Other federal officers have been impeached after leaving office in order to disqualify them from future federal positions.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> hes citing the post hoc removal of some judges iirc. There’s some issues with that precedent though and the chief seemed to agree but now that the senate has voted the precedent has been irrevocably changed.


What issues?


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The ds failure to understand that the legal charge of incitement wasn’t met but joining in anyways in a desire to punish trump certain does show our democracy is a complete failure especially since a lot of them including the vp are guilty of similar conduct


Have you forgotten there was an armed mob bent on multiple murders, sent there by the President?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> What issues?


I really don’t recall at this time. I read a paper on it Thursday but don’t remember the specifics and don’t have time to look at it (playing board game with the kids)


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Have you forgotten there was an armed mob bent on multiple murders, sent there by the President?


1. While certain members were both armed and bent on murder not all of them were. That’s like saying all the blm protestors were rioters
2. Trump certainly sent them to the capitol but he said to do it peacefully and patriotically. He never instructed them to seize the capitol
3. His behavior was certainly reckless and inspired the rioters to seize the capitol. That isn’t legally incitement. The ds including the vp did similar things with the spring riots. That’s not legal incitement either.


----------



## espola (Feb 14, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I really don’t recall at this time. I read a paper on it Thursday but don’t remember the specifics and don’t have time to look at it (playing board game with the kids)


I  can wait until tomorrow for your answer.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I  can wait until tomorrow for your answer.


Ok couldn’t find the paper but found the info. There’s a senator a judge and a cabinet member.  All pre 1900 (so the first issue is the precedent is old).  The second issue is that none of it deals with a president whose term has expired (all 3 were resignations in an attempt to avoid removal.  None of them were president and then there's the intervening case of Nixon's resignation also).  The case of the Senator isn't helpful because the case seems to stand for the proposition that the Senate cannot impeach members of Congress but must instead expel them.  The case of the federal judge also not controlling because he left without resigning to join the confederacy so technically was still in office.  The case of the Sec State is probably most persuasive, but can be distinguished in that he resigned racing to the House to turn in the resignation, just as the House started to vote.

I'm not expressing any opinion on the Constitutionality of removing a former President here.  I actually think it's a pretty close case.  I think the fact Roberts refused to sit is a pretty big deal too.  But I hardly describe this as "settled precedent".  Certainly its precedent but there's also nothing on point here.


----------



## crush (Feb 15, 2021)

*Suckers!!!!  Are you grab & goers are going to get what you deserve!!*!


----------



## crush (Feb 15, 2021)

Happy President's Day President Biden.  I hope you enjoy the special day.  Let's all celebrate all that the Presidents have done for our Great America, that we all can Make to be Great.  No one person is perfect and neither were all of our past Presidents.  Thank you to all who served and made $400,000 a year for life.  A special thanks to the one who never took a salary or never put us in a war.  Also took all troops home or at least tried.  No war President should be honored.  Talk about saving lives.  I know 100% who has his back.  Good Monday to all!!


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Other federal officers have been impeached after leaving office in order to disqualify them from future federal positions.


Others? 

No not others. 

There has been precisely 1 person. William Belknap

He was acquitted because a large percentage of senators believed they could not impeach (because he no longer held office) him even though they (all the senators) believed he was guilty.


----------



## crush (Feb 15, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Others?
> 
> No not others.
> 
> ...


Hey bro, all this fools just opened up everyone for their own Impeachment.  Remember, be careful what you ask for.....lol!!!   BahhhhhhhaahhhhhhabbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaBahhhhhhhhhhh.  We have some dumb goats on here, that's for sure.


----------



## crush (Feb 15, 2021)

I have a prediction to make.  Dum dum will be here soon to set us all straight.  Mr Magoo will go away for a few days and his other evil side will go full hate and attack with mean words.  Long Game will be here soon as well to add fake support.  One dude playing with us, all by himself.


----------



## espola (Feb 15, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Others?
> 
> No not others.
> 
> ...


Senator William Blount was impeached by the House after he had been expelled by the Senate.  The Senate started the trial and then voted that his expulsion served the same purpose, and so ended the trial.  That precedent holds to this day.   A test case of that separation would be one brought against a sitting Senator.

Federal Judge West Humphreys was impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate in 1861, all after he had resigned his post to serve in the Confederate States government.

In the Belknap case, he was impeached by a unanimous vote of the House despite his resignation after the committee holding hearings on his corruption unanimously recommended an impeachment.  A majority of the Senate agreed that he was subject to impeachment despite having resigned his office, but he survived the trial because the final vote against him was only 56% (37-29).


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Senator William Blount was impeached by the House after he had been expelled by the Senate.  The Senate started the trial and then voted that his expulsion served the same purpose, and so ended the trial.  That precedent holds to this day.   A test case of that separation would be one brought against a sitting Senator.
> 
> Federal Judge West Humphreys was impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate in 1861, all after he had resigned his post to serve in the Confederate States government.
> 
> In the Belknap case, he was impeached by a unanimous vote of the House despite his resignation after the committee holding hearings on his corruption unanimously recommended an impeachment.  A majority of the Senate agreed that he was subject to impeachment despite having resigned his office, but he survived the trial because the final vote against him was only 56% (37-29).


You need to learn history.

Impeachment charges were brought up while he still held office. Later the same day the Senate expelled him. 

And when the House charges went to the Senate? 

"Charges dismissed for want of jurisdiction; Blount had been expelled from the U.S. Senate before his trial."

In other words, the Senate refused to even start the impeachment trial.

Humphreys never resigned. He lost his office after the impeachment proceedings. Now to further muddy things up. His jurisdiction was in and around Tennessee. A state the left the union.


----------



## espola (Feb 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I really don’t recall at this time. I read a paper on it Thursday but don’t remember the specifics and don’t have time to look at it (playing board game with the kids)





espola said:


> I  can wait until tomorrow for your answer.


It's tomorrow.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 16, 2021)

A story with a happy ending.









						30 Taliban killed in explosion at a bomb-making class in Afghan mosque
					

The 209th Shaheen Corps - part of the Afghan National Army - said in a statement that 30 fighters including six foreign nationals, had been killed in an explosion on Saturday morning.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> It's tomorrow.


I answered.  It's up above at thread 89 (though because I block EOTL my count may be different than yours)


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ok couldn’t find the paper but found the info. There’s a senator a judge and a cabinet member.  All pre 1900 (so the first issue is the precedent is old).  The second issue is that none of it deals with a president whose term has expired (all 3 were resignations in an attempt to avoid removal.  None of them were president and then there's the intervening case of Nixon's resignation also).  The case of the Senator isn't helpful because the case seems  to stand for the proposition that the Senate cannot impeach members of Congress but must instead expel them.  The case of the federal judge also not controlling because he left without resigning to join the confederacy so technically was still in office.  The case of the Sec State is probably most persuasive, but can be distinguished in that he resigned racing to the House to turn in the resignation, just as the House started to vote.
> 
> I'm not expressing any opinion on the Constitutionality of removing a former President here.  I actually think it's a pretty close case.  I think the fact Roberts refused to sit is a pretty big deal too.  But I hardly describe this as "settled precedent".  Certainly its precedent but there's also nothing on point here.


I could nitpick (it was Grant's Secretary of War, for instance), but it all comes down to your opinion.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> I could nitpick (it was Grant's Secretary of War, for instance), but it all comes down to your opinion.


That part's not really an opinion.  It borders somewhere between professional opinion and fact. I agree there's precedent (which is fact).  One could even arguably describe it as good precedent (which would be an opinion).  That precedent cannot be described by any stretch though "as settled precedent" due to the issues I pointed out.  You overspoke, but after this trial I think now there is "settled precedent" on the point.


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That part's not really an opinion.  It borders somewhere between professional opinion and fact. I agree there's precedent (which is fact).  One could even arguably describe it as good precedent (which would be an opinion).  That precedent cannot be described by any stretch though "as settled precedent" due to the issues I pointed out.  You overspoke, but after this trial I think now there is "settled precedent" on the point.


The Senate agreed that the impeachment after leaving office was constitutional.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The Senate agreed that the impeachment after leaving office was constitutional.


I agree that creates settled precedent.  Before, though, there wasn't settled precedent.  Still having a hard time threading the needle, huh?


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I agree that creates settled precedent.  Before, though, there wasn't settled precedent.  Still having a hard time threading the needle, huh  ?


My opinion was affirmed by the Senate.  Why would I have any problem with that.


----------



## crush (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> My opinion was affirmed by the Senate.  Why would I have any problem with that.


I told you so almost three years ago Mr Magoo and you laughed at me.  I told you so!!!  You should give credit where credit is due.  I told you so


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> My opinion was affirmed by the Senate.  Why would I have any problem with that.


Because you described it as settled precedent.  Not precedent that was affirmed. You may have been proved legally right, but still overspoke


----------



## crush (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because you described it as settled precedent.  Not precedent that was affirmed. You may have been proved legally right, but still overspoke


Grace, can you ask Espola why he wont give me props for calling my shots a long time ago?


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because you described it as settled precedent.  Not precedent that was affirmed. You may have been proved legally right, but still overspoke


Despite your opinion, it was settled precedent.  The Senate agreed.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Because you described it as settled precedent.  Not precedent that was affirmed. You may have been proved legally right, but still overspoke


Has it been proved legally right?

The clause for impeachment says the Chief Justice SHALL preside. Is there wiggle room there?

He apparently thought this was not correct and declined?

Is the new precedent that a partisan (Leahy in this case) who has been an advocate for impeachment of T now for some time can now take the place of a Chief Justice?

This is now a precedent?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Despite your opinion, it was settled precedent.  The Senate agreed.


Settled in the legal context means beyond dispute. The Chief Justice at least disagreed. You were wrong and overspoke


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

crush said:


> Grace, can you ask Espola why he wont give me props for calling my shots a long time ago?


I’m fairly certain he has you on block


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

Joe Biden on CNN by claiming he didn't have the vaccine at the beginning of his admin either just massively lied or had a brain fart of epic proportions.  Of course the media hasn't called him on it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361862724419014657


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Has it been proved legally right?
> 
> The clause for impeachment says the Chief Justice SHALL preside. Is there wiggle room there?
> 
> ...


The Senate operates on precedent, so yeah it's now precedent.  It may have been wrongly decided (lots of cases are), but this is a lot closer to "settled precedent" than what espola describes as "settled precedent" before the trial.  When there's is a Republican house and an exiting d president (particularly if that president is a 1 termer), I'm sure this precedent will be used to impeach.


----------



## crush (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I’m fairly certain he has you on block


I think he's speaking through EOTL.  EOTL is only talking soccer right now and I blown away.  Do you remember the nice Espola back in the day?  I always would rely on him for support.  I told him to just believe and things will change in socal.  He said, "nonsense and nothing will change because." I said they will and I think I've been right.  People think I'm on drugs because I'm smart and use my brain to think and make decisions.  What drugs are you on Grace?  Be honest with the group please.  My God, I dont take drugs.  I only eat from the green earth.  I lost 30 LBs Grace


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Settled in the legal context means beyond dispute. The Chief Justice at least disagreed. You were wrong and overspoke


What did the Chief Justice have to say about it?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> What did the Chief Justice have to say about it?


He didn't show up.  You can try to evade it all you like but it's very clear you overspoke.  While precedent, until this verdict you couldn't call it settled precedent.


----------



## crush (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> What did the Chief Justice have to say about it?


Espola, its me, Ellejustus.  I'm the same guy as soccerhelper, NewWaveDave and let's not forget about detective Justus.  It's me, crush.  Bro, I told you so.  I have more predictions coming that will 100% blow your mind.  Do you want to know more?


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He didn't show up.  You can try to evade it all you like but it's very clear you overspoke.  While precedent, until this verdict you couldn't call it settled precedent.


You find his non-opinion to be support of your opinion?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> You find his non-opinion to be support of your opinion?


No I find his not showing up as lack of support for yours.  If he had shown up it would have shorn up your position of "settled precedent".   He did not, leaving the matter in question.  I have the advantage here because of the word "settled" which you used which has a specific meaning.  I only have to show there are questions.  You have to show there are none.  You haven't done that and are wrong....you overspoke


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No I find his not showing up as lack of support for yours.  If he had shown up it would have shorn up your position of "settled precedent".   He did not, leaving the matter in question.  I have the advantage here because of the word "settled" which you used which has a specific meaning.  I only have to show there are questions.  You have to show there are none.  You haven't done that and are wrong....you overspoke


The plain language of the Constitution states "When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside".  The operative verb clause "is tried" is in present tense. Since t was no longer President, it was not necessary for him to preside.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The plain language of the Constitution states "When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside".  The operative verb clause "is tried" is in present tense. Since t was no longer President, it was not necessary for him to preside.


I'm not disputing that legal point.  I don't know what Roberts was thinking.  All I'm saying is his failure to show up is another indication that it's not "settled precedent" as you claim.  Again, I only have to raise questions....you have to show that there are none....his failure to show up is a question.  Again, you miss the little nuances here and find yourself off the road.


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I'm not disputing that legal point.  I don't know what Roberts was thinking.  All I'm saying is his failure to show up is another indication that it's not "settled precedent" as you claim.  Again, I only have to raise questions....you have to show that there are none....his failure to show up is a question.  Again, you miss the little nuances here and find yourself off the road.


The settled precedent is that federal officers can be impeached and tried after they have left office.  That Roberts' absence supports your position is just wishful thinking.

And your tell is showing.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> The settled precedent is that federal officers can be impeached and tried after they have left office.  That Roberts' absence supports your position is just wishful thinking.
> 
> And your tell is showing.


The Roberts thing is only one prong.  I pointed out several others.  Kicker said next you'd be having me write your responses because you get so lost.  You know what....I'm going to do it because I have a bit of sadistic streak.

Here's what you should have said: "I didn't mean to use 'settled precedent' in its legal sense.  Perhaps I did overspeak.  But there is precedent, and it's very good precedent, even though it's old and not directly on point.  It establishes federal officers can be impeached and tried after they have left office, even if it doesn't address the issue of the president himself."

But you didn't.  Because you are stubborn and will hold onto any foolish point even when it's evident you've gone off the rails and are lost.

And as we've discussed before, that tell actually says more about where you are, than where I am.


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The Roberts thing is only one prong.  I pointed out several others.  Kicker said next you'd be having me write your responses because you get so lost.  You know what....I'm going to do it because I have a bit of sadistic streak.
> 
> Here's what you should have said: "I didn't mean to use 'settled precedent' in its legal sense.  Perhaps I did overspeak.  But there is precedent, and it's very good precedent, even though it's old and not directly on point.  It establishes federal officers can be impeached and tried after they have left office, even if it doesn't address the issue of the president himself."
> 
> ...


Your ad hominem attack is not advancing your position.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Your ad hominem attack is not advancing your position.


You couldn’t even say “yeah sorry I missed your post. Thank you for getting back to me.  I respect that”. Instead you missed my post and then tried to tweak me for still waiting. And now rather than answer the charge you deflect citing an ad when I was making no such argument...I was making an observation about you which you did to me with the “tell” which is also wrong because that says more about you than me (ie that you are really far off the road). How wrong can you get in one day?


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You couldn’t even say “yeah sorry I missed your post. Thank you for getting back to me.  I respect that”. Instead you missed my post and then tried to tweak me for still waiting. And now rather than answer the charge you deflect citing an ad when I was making no such argument...I was making an observation about you which you did to me with the “tell” which is also wrong because that says more about you than me (ie that you are really far off the road). How wrong can you get in one day?


" you are stubborn and will hold onto any foolish point even when it's evident you've gone off the rails and are lost."

That's pretty much textbook ad hominem.  It's Latin for "at the person", implying not addressing the content or logic of the question at issue. It is generally regarded as a weak tactic in a debate, usually indicative of a failed position.

It appears your rebuttal is just more of the same.

q.e.d.

Please continue.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> " you are stubborn and will hold onto any foolish point even when it's evident you've gone off the rails and are lost."
> 
> That's pretty much ad hominem.  It's Latin for "at the person", implying not addressing the content or logic of the question at issue. It is generally regarded as a weak tactic in a debate, usually indicative of a failed position.
> 
> ...


It’s hilarious you think we are debating.  Detecting a pattern here?  Once you are off that road you have a tendency to keep going further and further out.  

This isn’t a debating society. I did competitive debate in high school (finished top ten in the state). If I were to choose an opponent it wouldn’t be you because of the simple reason you have a hard time understanding what the issue even is at times. 

It says a lot about you that you think you are debater and that’s what we are doing. We aren’t and even if we were you aren’t really capable of it. 

And all this deflection just simply because you can’t admit you overreached, which is also a classic debating mistake. A bigger person would have just said yeah maybe I did but my point still stands.


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It’s hilarious you think we are debating.  Detecting a pattern here?  Once you are off that road you have a tendency to keep going further and further out.
> 
> This isn’t a debating society. I did competitive debate in high school (finished top ten in the state). If I were to choose an opponent it wouldn’t be you because of the simple reason you have a hard time understanding what the issue even is at times.
> 
> ...


That's a whole paragraph of ad hominem. You have totally abandoned the question.

One good reason for studying formal debate (forensics) in high school is so that one will know how to argue effectively in adult life.   My debate team was given the "for" position on the then-new topic of Medicare, many years ago.  We assumed that our opponents on the "against" side would bring up "socialized medicine", so my task was to prepare a "so what" counter with data gathered from countries with public health care systems, comparing the relative costs and benefits.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> That's a whole paragraph of ad hominem. You have totally abandoned the question.
> 
> One good reason for studying formal debate (forensics) in high school is so that one will know how to argue effectively in adult life.   My debate team was given the "for" position on the then-new topic of Medicare, many years ago.  We assumed that our opponents on the "against" side would bring up "socialized medicine", so my task was to prepare a "so what" counter with data gathered from countries with public health care systems, comparing the relative costs and benefits.


It’s funny too now you rail against ads but you are the king of them. Indeed the entire conversation started off with your error of tweaking me for not replying when I did.  Apparently your rules apply only in one direction.  Then you yourself raise every deflection in the book to avoid admitting you overreached which was the central question. It’s really quite comical.

Ps it’s not my burden to prove. I only have to show there a questions. You’ve done everything but show there aren’t on the “settled precedent”


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It’s funny too now you rail against ads but you are the king of them. Indeed the entire conversation started off with your error of tweaking me for not replying when I did.  Apparently your rules apply only in one direction.  Then you yourself raise every deflection in the book to avoid admitting you overreached which was the central question. It’s really quite comical.
> 
> Ps it’s not my burden to prove. I only have to show there a questions. You’ve done everything but show there aren’t on the “settled precedent”


You continue with the "over-reach" thing despite the fact that I have shown validation for every position I have posted.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 16, 2021)

espola said:


> You continue with the "over-reach" thing despite the fact that I have shown validation for every position I have posted.


That’s funny. You haven’t. You just stubbornly can’t admit you made a mistake which undermined your initial position. Had you said “strong precedent” instead of “settled precedent” we could have disagreed but you at least would have been on solid ground.


----------



## espola (Feb 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny. You haven’t. You just stubbornly can’t admit you made a mistake which undermined your initial position. Had you said “strong precedent” instead of “settled precedent” we could have disagreed but you at least would have been on solid ground.


The existence of several impeachment proceedings in our history against former officeholders is settled precedent.  

There are no grounds to exclude the President from the general class of federal officers. 

The only distinction in the Constitution between the impeachment of a President and any other federal officer is the position of the Chief Justice as the presiding judge at the trial in the Senate.  Chief Justice Roberts took an apparent,  but unspoken, position that he need not preside at the trial of a former President.  I know of no one who disagrees with that position.

Do you see anything wrong with that logic?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 17, 2021)

espola said:


> The existence of several impeachment proceedings in our history against former officeholders is settled precedent.
> 
> There are no grounds to exclude the President from the general class of federal officers.
> 
> ...


You just used the words settled precedent wrong in the first sentence. I’ve told you now several times it means as a term of legal art “beyond dispute”.  It can’t be beyond dispute because 2 of the cases can be easily distinguished as I outlined above, 1 is a close case involving a resignation not expiration of office, the precedents are old, and none of them are exactly on point. Add to that Robert’s. You can argue it’s “strong precedent” but it’s not “settled precedent”. You are using it wrong, and as always you don’t even understand your own arguments.   Your first sentence should just read “office holders is precedent” but now you are trying to word smith and bend things because you are too stubborn to admit you overreached.


----------



## espola (Feb 17, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You just used the words settled precedent wrong in the first sentence. I’ve told you now several times it means as a term of legal art “beyond dispute”.  It can’t be beyond dispute because 2 of the cases can be easily distinguished as I outlined above, 1 is a close case involving a resignation not expiration of office, the precedents are old, and none of them are exactly on point. Add to that Robert’s. You can argue it’s “strong precedent” but it’s not “settled precedent”. You are using it wrong, and as always you don’t even understand your own arguments.   Your first sentence should just read “office holders is precedent” but now you are trying to word smith and bend things because you are too stubborn to admit you overreached.


There is nothing wrong with the first sentence.

What is wrong with "old" precedents?

What do you mean by "Add that to Robeert's"?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 17, 2021)

espola said:


> There is nothing wrong with the first sentence.
> 
> What is wrong with "old" precedents?
> 
> What do you mean by "Add that to Robeert's"?


yes there is.  To show settled precedent you have to show no doubt

there’s a premise in law that the older the precedent that the weaker it is

what we discussed before.

In other words your case would have to be perfect to argue it’s settled precedent. It’s not


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 17, 2021)

Worth a read.









						The False and Exaggerated Claims Still Being Spread About the Capitol Riot
					

Insisting on factual accuracy does not make one an apologist for the protesters. False reporting is never justified, especially to inflate threat and fear levels.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## crush (Feb 17, 2021)

Hound, did you see this?  My wife worked with AC and went to parties with the crew.


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 17, 2021)

*Grace T.*

You pointed out this BLM/Antifa guy a few weeks ago. Or maybe right after Jan 6. 

Turns out he was got paid 35K each from CNN and NBC for filming. He has a company he uses for just these activities...ie filming and encouraging riots. And yet CNN and NBC paid him. 

_Sullivan’s defense attorney even filed invoices with the court showing that CNN and NBC each paid Sullivan’s firm $35,000 last month for rights to video he filmed of chaotic scenes outside and inside the Capitol, including the deadly shooting of protester Ashli Babbitt by a U.S. Capitol Police officer.

However, prosecutors contend that Sullivan is *not a mere bystander *or chronicler of protests. *Instead, they say, he actively encourages violence, telling viewers how to make Molotov cocktails and evade identification by police.* He was arrested last month on charges stemming from the Jan. 6 riot, including interfering with police during a civil disorder. Sullivan was later hit with an additional charge: obstruction of Congress.
--

“Insurgence USA is absolutely the instrumentality through which Mr. Sullivan committed the relevant acts,” she said. “It is Mr. Sullivan’s reason for being there and for his criminal participation in the riot.”_









						Judge refuses to ban Capitol riot suspect from Twitter and Facebook
					

But the court ordered John Sullivan of Utah, a videographer, to stop work with his Insurgence USA website and social media platforms.




					www.politico.com


----------



## espola (Feb 17, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> *Grace T.*
> 
> You pointed out this BLM/Antifa guy a few weeks ago. Or maybe right after Jan 6.
> 
> ...











						PolitiFact - Facebook posts wrongly claim left-wing activist, antifa ‘incited’ US Capitol mob
					

UPDATE, Jan. 15, 2021: Following the publication of this fact-check, John Sullivan was arrested Jan. 14 in Utah, the U.S




					www.politifact.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 17, 2021)

espola said:


> PolitiFact - Facebook posts wrongly claim left-wing activist, antifa ‘incited’ US Capitol mob
> 
> 
> UPDATE, Jan. 15, 2021: Following the publication of this fact-check, John Sullivan was arrested Jan. 14 in Utah, the U.S
> ...


Fantastic. 

The article talks about what the prosecution in the case says this guy is doing. It also points out some news orgs paid him for his "work" that day. 

So why you bring up a fact check related to FB posts isn't relevant is it?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2021)

DOW WOW! LOL!


----------



## Kicker4Life (Feb 24, 2021)

Why kill Operation Talon?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> Why kill Operation Talon?


Had to google that. Was it ever a thing? Unknown.








						Did Biden Cancel Operation Talon?
					

Here's what you need to know about "Operation Talon," a Trump-era program aimed at deporting sexual offenders.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Feb 24, 2021)

@Grace T.

Thoughts?

"What jumps out regarding all these promises to investigate is that no crime has been identified—only a target of prosecution, of whom it is simply assumed that he has committed crimes. But this manner of criminal jurisprudence is totally contrary to the spirit of American law, a bedrock principle of which is the assumption of innocence, both for the accused, but even more importantly, for people who have not been accused. Prosecutors running around pledging to investigate people they consider political enemies embody the apothegm of Stalin’s top secret policeman Lavrenty Beria, who famously said, “Show me the man, and I will find you the crime.”









						Predatory Prosecutors
					

Weaponizing prosecutors is a tactic of petty tyrants and dictators, not free nations.




					americanmind.substack.com


----------



## Kicker4Life (Feb 24, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Had to google that. Was it ever a thing? Unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good...thx


----------



## espola (Feb 25, 2021)

Today's scandal in the B administration -- the GOP twitter account pointed out B's failure to execute his promise to get schools open in his first 100 days, 36 days into his Presidency.

I can see that somebody needs to go to school.


----------



## happy9 (Feb 25, 2021)

espola said:


> Today's scandal in the B administration -- the GOP twitter account pointed out B's failure to execute his promise to get schools open in his first 100 days, 36 days into his Presidency.
> 
> I can see that somebody needs to go to school.


Nothing about how effective and promising the COVID relief bill looks?  Things are looking good for underground rail and international bridges - both are critical to COVID relief.  Nothing but great stewardship on display.


----------



## tenacious (Feb 27, 2021)

I know there are many families out there who are economically barely hanging on and in desperate need of help, and I strongly agree that we should help.
It's just a bit concerning that some really smart people are warning that Biden and the Dem lead Congress's plan is likely to lead to hyper inflation. What do you suppose will happen to the value of everyone's homes if interest rates jumps up to 17% like it did under Jimmy Carter?

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-26/eager-to-say-i-told-you-so-paul-singer-warns-of-trouble-ahead?srnd=premium


----------



## tenacious (Feb 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Biden has a tall mountain to climb to reset American policy to a more sane long haul vision. Then he will be a game manager.


Actually I'd say the American people have a tall mountain to climb. 

Which is why I'm a bit concerned that Biden doesn't make it worse... if pandering to the extreme left doesn't work- he's not the one who is going to have to pay that money back.

(I only bring it up because living in NYC, I see progressive policies in action everyday)


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

To round this out....courts have been quietly questioning some procedures used in the November elections....









						Months after Trump complaints, some courts are finding irregularities in 2020 elections
					

Michigan, Wisconsin and Virginia court actions show some absentee ballot procedures imposed by Democrats violated state laws.




					justthenews.com
				




1 of the 2 events that would have provided the Rs with a basis to remove Trump (the other being the pressuring of Pence to act unconstitutionally during the count), does not appear to have happened.









						Something is Rotten in the Georgia Secretary of State's Office - The American Conservative
					

The source for the Washington Post's fake quotes also made the January 2 recording, sources say.




					www.theamericanconservative.com
				




And Biden isn't looking too good.  My mom has dementia but hers isn't as advanced.  She'll loose things and forget she had a conversation or told us something hours earlier, but she's not at a point yet where her walking gait is affected or she looses her way midway through sentences.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> To round this out....courts have been quietly questioning some procedures used in the November elections....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really don’t need to constantly display how highly partisan you are we all know. You probably think trump is a genius and well spoken.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You really don’t need to constantly display how highly partisan you are we all know. You probably think trump is a genius and well spoken.


I've said it before, while I support several of his policies, I'm not a Trump fan and in particular I think (with the exception of the vaccines) he handled COVID slightly more poorly than his contemporary western counterparts.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

It's happened I guess.....President Harris.









						Biden calls Kamala ‘President Harris’ during speech
					

President Biden on Thursday called his vice president, Kamala Harris, “President Harris” while celebrating the US nearing administration of 100 million COVID-19 vaccine doses. Biden sai…




					nypost.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I've said it before, while I support several of his policies, I'm not a Trump fan and in particular I think (with the exception of the vaccines) he handled COVID slightly more poorly than his contemporary western counterparts.


I have heard many people claim they aren’t “trump fans” while they back everything he says and does. Nice try.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have heard many people claim they aren’t “trump fans” while they back everything he says and does. Nice try.


It's a continuation of the "alternative facts" religion.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have heard many people claim they aren’t “trump fans” while they back everything he says and does. Nice try.


Kind of like people who claim they are conservative but really aren’t.

I haven’t backed everything he says or does. Just three examples: 1) if he pressured pence to act illegally I’d think that is impeachable, 2) while not impeachable I thought his slowness to call off the capitol rioters was not cool and merited a resignation and 3) I thought he was below average in the rona response other than vaccines which he gets an a- on. I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked. We all know who the real partisan are here. You two aren’t fooling anyone. Pot meet kettle.


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> To round this out....courts have been quietly questioning some procedures used in the November elections....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Few have noticed. No State of the Union?

I don't think he is capable of standing and talking for 90 minutes.

When is the last time we haven't had one?

Congress is in session so no excuses on that one. They are all vaccinated so there is no reason why this yr Biden isn't giving one... except..


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Kind of like people who claim they are conservative but really aren’t.
> 
> I haven’t backed everything he says or does. Just three examples: 1) if he pressured pence to act illegally I’d think that is impeachable, 2) while not impeachable I thought his slowness to call off the capitol rioters was not cool and merited a resignation and 3) I thought he was below average in the rona response other than vaccines which he gets an a- on. I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked. We all know who the real partisan are here. You two aren’t fooling anyone. Pot meet kettle.


The term "conservative" has been stolen by the party of fraud, fear, hate, and greed.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Few have noticed. No State of the Union?
> 
> I don't think he is capable of standing and talking for 90 minutes.
> 
> ...


The President gave no SOU speech in 2017, 2009, 2001, 1993, 1989, etc,  Can you figure out why?


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked.


How was this debunked?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> How was this debunked?


See story above


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> See story above


That's not an answer.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> That's not an answer.


Yes it is


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yes it is


Why don't you just show the reason that you posted that?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> Why don't you just show the reason that you posted that?


Why don’t you just read the article instead of having me paraphrase the facts.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Why don’t you just read the article instead of having me paraphrase the facts.


Why don't you demonstrate the thought process that led you from the content of that article to your "debunked" declaration?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> Why don't you demonstrate the thought process that led you from the content of that article to your "debunked" declaration?


The article is self explanatory


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The article is self explanatory


Your thought processes is not.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> Your thought processes is not.


My thought process is the article. It’s not within my control if you understand it or not.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> My thought process is the article. It’s not within my control if you understand it or not.


Here is something that should be easy for you to debunk -- you realized you made an erroneous statement and now you are being evasive rather than admit it.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> Here is something that should be easy for you to debunk -- you realized you made an erroneous statement and now you are being evasive rather than admit it.


no. The article speaks for itself


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> no. The article speaks for itself


You appear to have chosen "evasive"..


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2021)

espola said:


> You appear to have chosen "evasive"..


You appear to go the usual lazy route of trying to force me to paraphrase someone else’s work instead of asking an intelligent question about the argument.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You appear to go the usual lazy route of trying to force me to paraphrase someone else’s work instead of asking an intelligent question about the argument.


You sem to be saying that you believe the accusation was "debunked" because the authors of that article told you it was.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> You sem to be saying that you believe the accusation was "debunked" because the authors of that article told you it was.


No I’m saying it was debunked because of what the authors of the article outline


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> No I’m saying it was debunked because of what the authors of the article outline


"I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked."

No rational person would find that the contents of the article support that statement.  A confused person might, however.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> "I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked."
> 
> No rational person would find that the contents of the article support that statement.  A confused person might, however.


There’s nothing to respond to here because you haven’t made an argument as to why only claiming that it’s not rational.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> There’s nothing to respond to here because you haven’t made an argument as to why only claiming that it’s not rational.


From the photo caption -- "In a one-hour phone call Saturday with Brad Raffensperger, Georgia's Secretary of State, President Trump urged him to overturn his defeat in the November election against President-elect Joe Biden. "

You may have heard the recording of that call.  It's over an hour long, but here is the best part --



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trump-berates-georgia-secretary-of-state-urges-him-to-find-votes/2021/01/03/aba64f5f-8c3c-490f-af34-618ccea732d7_video.html
		


"I just want to find 11,780 votes" --  Remember that?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> From the photo caption -- "In a one-hour phone call Saturday with Brad Raffensperger, Georgia's Secretary of State, President Trump urged him to overturn his defeat in the November election against President-elect Joe Biden. "
> 
> You may have heard the recording of that call.  It's over an hour long, but here is the best part --
> 
> ...


Ok now an actual question. I think the 11780 comes close to the line but it’s not a statement that crosses the line into legal tampering. The much more troubling comments that made clear the intent were the call to the investigator and the quotations which were made up. Was it wrong and norm breaking? Yes absolutely.  Did it rise to the legal standard for tampering? No.  And why then if what he did was clear and convincingly wrong the need to lie about it?  Why was the Washington post put in a position of having to retract?


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ok now an actual question. I think the 11780 comes close to the line but it’s not a statement that crosses the line into legal tampering. The much more troubling comments that made clear the intent were the call to the investigator and the quotations which were made up. Was it wrong and norm breaking? Yes absolutely.  Did it rise to the legal standard for tampering? No.  And why then if what he did was clear and convincingly wrong the need to lie about it?  Why was the Washington post put in a position of having to retract?


They didn't retract.  They realized that had made a mistake and issued a correction.  That is what adults do quite often. 

Now how did that gett you to "debunked"?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> They didn't retract.  They realized that had made a mistake and issued a correction.  That is what adults do quite often.
> 
> Now how did that gett you to "debunked"?


Exactly as I said. Without those quotes there isn’t a legal basis for tampering.


----------



## crush (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> They didn't retract.  They realized that had made a mistake and issued a correction.  That is what adults do quite often.
> 
> Now how did that gett you to "debunked"?


Hey Espola and all the other avatars you have .  The biggest problem we have in this country and around the world is how men have been behaving and treating ladies and girls like shit.  Game, set and match bro.  Wake up and change or get lost loser!!!

*Cuomo accuser Lindsey Boylan claims governor once joked he would try to 'mount' her if he were a dog

*


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Exactly as I said. Without those quotes there isn’t a legal basis for tampering.


The correction was not in regard to the infamous recorded telephone call with the Georgia Secretary of State.  It was a correction to a report on a different telephone conversation with a different person, the Deputy Secretary of State.

Have you figured out why I said "confused" yet?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> The correction was not in regard to the infamous recorded telephone call with the Georgia Secretary of State.  It was a correction to a report on a different telephone conversation with a different person, the Deputy Secretary of State.
> 
> Have you figured out why I said "confused" yet?


Fair clarification. I’m using shorthand for the sec states office as did the article. Seriously dude only you expect everything on the net to be a cited dissertation. Weird.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Fair clarification. I’m using shorthand for the sec states office as did the article. Seriously dude only you expect everything on the net to be a cited dissertation. Weird.


It was in plain English, and the article made clear that it was reporting on a different telephone conversation.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> It was in plain English, and the article made clear that it was reporting on a different telephone conversation.


The article is reporting on the conversation which sustained a tampering claim


----------



## happy9 (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> The term "conservative" has been stolen by the party of fraud, fear, hate, and greed.


Sounds like characteristics  of both parties.  Isn't it interesting how easily people are convinced their party is the party of good.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

happy9 said:


> Sounds like characteristics  of both parties.  Isn't it interesting how easily people are convinced their party is the party of good.


To be clear, let me repeat my statement that I'm not a member of nor advocate for any political party.  Issues like those I stated are the main reason why I no longer consider myself a Republican.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The article is reporting on the conversation which sustained a tampering claim


The tampering claim stands on the recorded "11,780 votes" conversation.


----------



## happy9 (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> To be clear, let me repeat my statement that I'm not a member of nor advocate for any political party.  Issues like those I stated are the main reason why I no longer consider myself a Republican.


So you are an independent?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> The tampering claim stands on the recorded "11,780 votes" conversation.


again not sufficient to meet the legal threshold. The corrected conversation would have gotten there but didn’t. The other option is pence but he’s not talking


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> again not sufficient to meet the legal threshold. The corrected conversation would have gotten there but didn’t. The other option is pence but he’s not talking


I admit that I was wrong.  I thought that you were confused, but instead, it seems that you are just practicing partisan advocacy.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

happy9 said:


> So you are an independent?


I think the appropriate term in California is "no party/none".


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> To be clear, let me repeat my statement that I'm not a member of nor advocate for any political party.  Issues like those I stated are the main reason why I no longer consider myself a Republican.


Neither am I but if I’m partisan you area true believer to boot


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> I admit that I was wrong.  I thought that you were confused, but instead, it seems that you are just practicing partisan advocacy.


Haha.  Pot kettle again


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> The tampering claim stands on the recorded "11,780 votes" conversation.


It’s close but could also be interpreted as an aspiration or wish rather than an attempt to coerce. The second phone call would have closed that loop. Without it you can’t make the legal foundation. It’s still a crummy thing to say but legally not tampering.


----------



## happy9 (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> I think the appropriate term in California is "no party/none".


Interesting.  What's the platform for the Freedom and Peace Party?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372937314477953027


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 19, 2021)

BTW, what's the over/under on Kamala Harris becomes President before the year is up????


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 19, 2021)

espola said:


> The President gave no SOU speech in 2017, 2009, 2001, 1993, 1989, etc,  Can you figure out why?


Well lets see here. I could go on. But traditionally EVERY year the President speaks before a joint congress.

Are you a fish in a barrel? 

So why isn't Biden doing one this year? I suspect is that he is not up to the task. 



2017








						2017 Donald Trump speech to a joint session of Congress - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




2009








						February 2009 Barack Obama speech to a joint session of Congress - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




2001





						George W. Bush's First State of the Union Address - Wikisource, the free online library
					






					en.wikisource.org
				




1993
*Bill Clinton's First State of the Union Address - Wikisource, the ...*
en.wikisource.org › wiki › Bill_Clinton's_First_State_of...


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372937314477953027


They have already put in a solution.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Kind of like people who claim they are conservative but really aren’t.
> 
> I haven’t backed everything he says or does. Just three examples: 1) if he pressured pence to act illegally I’d think that is impeachable, 2) while not impeachable I thought his slowness to call off the capitol rioters was not cool and merited a resignation and 3) I thought he was below average in the rona response other than vaccines which he gets an a- on. I thought his pressuring of the Georgia Secretary of State was also impeachable but that’s been debunked. We all know who the real partisan are here. You two aren’t fooling anyone. Pot meet kettle.


trump isn’t a conservative.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 19, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Few have noticed. No State of the Union?
> 
> I don't think he is capable of standing and talking for 90 minutes.
> 
> ...


Your pals threatened another round of beating on cops, bombs and mayhem.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 19, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Well lets see here. I could go on. But traditionally EVERY year the President speaks before a joint congress.
> 
> Are you a fish in a barrel?
> 
> ...











						Extremists planning attack on Biden’s State of the Union speech
					

Far-right extremist groups that took part in the deadly insurrection on Jan. 6 are now threatening to “blow up” the U.S. Capitol during President Biden’s upcoming State of the Union address, according to intelligence revealed Thursday during a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing.




					www.ajc.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 19, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your pals threatened another round of beating on cops, bombs and mayhem.


Keep drinking the Cool Aid.

They like to keep you guys in a perpetual state of fear/confusion.


----------



## happy9 (Mar 19, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Extremists planning attack on Biden’s State of the Union speech
> 
> 
> Far-right extremist groups that took part in the deadly insurrection on Jan. 6 are now threatening to “blow up” the U.S. Capitol during President Biden’s upcoming State of the Union address, according to intelligence revealed Thursday during a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing.
> ...


I guess the defense in depth around the Capitol Building isn't being dismantled anytime soon.  The FBI I suppose needs to do some work.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> It’s close but could also be interpreted as an aspiration or wish rather than an attempt to coerce. The second phone call would have closed that loop. Without it you can’t make the legal foundation. It’s still a crummy thing to say but legally not tampering.


There were more than 2 phone calls to Georgia officials.  Eventually, someone got so concerned that they recorded one and released it to the public.

An interesting twist to that fact is that the acoustic quality of the recording suggests that it was recorded on t's end.  That was an analysis by an acoustics expert, based on the fact that the audio quality is better (in an acoustician's sense of "better') on the parts spoke by t.  Of course, other factors may have caused that artifact, such as t having a better phone, and we can't dismiss the possibility that the quality was doctored in order to mask the identity of the recorder.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Well lets see here. I could go on. But traditionally EVERY year the President speaks before a joint congress.
> 
> Are you a fish in a barrel?
> 
> ...


All 3 of those articles include language that they were not "State of the Union" addresses.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump isn’t a conservative.


Yeah, but -- many of those who claim to be conservatives in the current political atmosphere are pleased by his words and actions.

Editorial aside -- Issa's campaign sign alongside I-8 east of El Cajon is still standing, and includes the words "Trump Conservative", apparently without intentional irony.


----------



## espola (Mar 19, 2021)

happy9 said:


> I guess the defense in depth around the Capitol Building isn't being dismantled anytime soon.  The FBI I suppose needs to do some work.


Every day I hear of more people being arrested.  

A beneficial aside to all this is that the crop of loons who showed themselves on Jan 6 at the Capitol are being disarmed, one by one.


----------



## happy9 (Mar 20, 2021)

espola said:


> Every day I hear of more people being arrested.
> 
> A beneficial aside to all this is that the crop of loons who showed themselves on Jan 6 at the Capitol are being disarmed, one by one.


As they should be. We expect the "premier" law enforcement agency on the planet should not be challenged to investigate and bring to justice a rather unsophisticated group of people.  

With that said, it's time for the barriers to come down and the national guard to go home.  All it does is remind many of the incompetence demonstrated by law enforcement senior officials in the days and weeks prior to JAN 6.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 20, 2021)

happy9 said:


> As they should be. We expect the "premier" law enforcement agency on the planet should not be challenged to investigate and bring to justice a rather unsophisticated group of people.
> 
> With that said, it's time for the barriers to come down and the national guard to go home.  All it does is remind many of the incompetence demonstrated by law enforcement senior officials in the days and weeks prior to JAN 6.


Is there another attack planned?


----------



## espola (Mar 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is there another attack planned?


I thought it was supposed to be today.  

TV showed NG troops dismantling outer defenses.,


----------



## happy9 (Mar 20, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is there another attack planned?


Of course there is.  There are always nefarious, lunatic actors planning attacks.


----------



## crush (Mar 20, 2021)

This is all staged and a choice to cross the bridge or of stay on the side of fear and death.  I know what my and wife I are doing.


----------



## crush (Mar 20, 2021)

SNL Tonight


----------



## Torros (Mar 22, 2021)

Three Trillion. 

The JV team is laughable.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

Curious about what folks thought about Biden's infrastructure plan? I thought this piece from Forbes on how Biden and his plan was a bit eye opening on how little of the $2.5 trillion goes to actual infrastructure. 

"Infrastructure as many people think of it—construction or improvement of bridges, highways, roads, ports, waterways, and airports—accounts for only $157 billion, or 7%, of the plan’s estimated cost. That’s apparently what Vought was referring to. The definition of infrastructure can reasonably be expanded to include upgrading wastewater and drinking water systems, expanding high-speed broadband Internet service to 100% of the nation, modernizing the electric grid, and improving infrastructure resilience. That brings the total to $518 billion, or 24% of the plan’s total cost."








						How much infrastructure is in Biden's infrastructure plan?
					

Like all humongous-scale legislative efforts, the Biden administration’s new $2.2 trillion infrastructure plan contains surprises.




					fortune.com


----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Curious about what folks thought about Biden's infrastructure plan? I thought this piece from Forbes on how Biden and his plan was a bit eye opening on how little of the $2.5 trillion goes to actual infrastructure.
> 
> "Infrastructure as many people think of it—construction or improvement of bridges, highways, roads, ports, waterways, and airports—accounts for only $157 billion, or 7%, of the plan’s estimated cost. That’s apparently what Vought was referring to. The definition of infrastructure can reasonably be expanded to include upgrading wastewater and drinking water systems, expanding high-speed broadband Internet service to 100% of the nation, modernizing the electric grid, and improving infrastructure resilience. That brings the total to $518 billion, or 24% of the plan’s total cost."
> 
> ...


The writer explains why in his 4th paragraph, I'd guess, but then he ignores that because he's the media I suppose.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> The writer explains why in his 4th paragraph, I'd guess, but then he ignores that because he's the media I suppose.


Are you saying you think the media is calling it an infrastructure bill as a means to attack the plan?  Hmm.  I would say it's more likely he's ignoring the name of the plan because the selling point that is being presented (for the most part) is that it's an infrastructure bill? 

Perhaps the creating union jobs didn't focus group well with the ongoing issues with the police and teachers unions.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Are you saying you think the media is calling it an infrastructure bill as a means to attack the plan?  Hmm.  I would say it's more likely he's ignoring the name of the plan because the selling point that is being presented (for the most part) is that it's an infrastructure bill?
> 
> Perhaps the creating union jobs didn't focus group well with the ongoing issues with the police and teachers unions.


No, I didn't say that. I merely pointed out that the article states that Biden's admin are not calling it an infrastructure bill, but the media is. So dissing it because its not all infrastructure seems strange, once you admit/recognize that the authors aren't saying its (all) infrastructure.

From the article, $2.2T total - I can see $1.4T detailed but no mention of union jobs unless you mean the people doing the work I suppose. The third one seems a lot to me, but I don't know that industry. TBH, there's more money, from the article, in aid to business than trad infrastructure work, but then the article isn't making some anti union point, that's you.

- $157B traditional infrastructure
- $361B water, waste water, electric grid & high speed internet
- $400B create jobs & raise pay for home care workers
- $300B aid for manufacturers and small businesses
- $180B for public investment in technology and research and development


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No, I didn't say that. I merely pointed out that the article states that Biden's admin are not calling it an infrastructure bill, but the media is. So dissing it because its not all infrastructure seems strange, once you admit/recognize that the authors aren't saying its (all) infrastructure.
> 
> From the article, $2.2T total - I can see $1.4T detailed but no mention of union jobs unless you mean the people doing the work I suppose. The third one seems a lot to me, but I don't know that industry. TBH, there's more money, from the article, in aid to business than trad infrastructure work, but then the article isn't making some anti union point, that's you.
> 
> ...


Oh sorry, I miss understood.  Think I got caught up on some of the wording in the 4th paragraph which you cited...
"It’s worth remembering that while the media call the initiative an infrastructure plan, the Biden administration doesn’t. Officially, it’s the American Jobs Plan, *and it consistently proposes creating or protecting jobs, especially union jobs*. But the administration’s fullest description of the plan, a nearly 12,000-word fact sheet, leans heavily on infrastructure from the beginning. A close reading reveals just how much is really there."

Anyway, adding up your list of number in my head... and it looks like your total is around $1.5 Trillion... when of course Bidens 'job plan' is closer to $2.5 Trillion. Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make: no one seems to know what the hell is in this massive government bill.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Oh sorry, I miss understood.  Think I got caught up on some of the wording in the 4th paragraph which you cited...
> "It’s worth remembering that while the media call the initiative an infrastructure plan, the Biden administration doesn’t. Officially, it’s the American Jobs Plan, *and it consistently proposes creating or protecting jobs, especially union jobs*. But the administration’s fullest description of the plan, a nearly 12,000-word fact sheet, leans heavily on infrastructure from the beginning. A close reading reveals just how much is really there."
> 
> Anyway, adding up your list of number in my head... and it looks like your total is around $1.5 Trillion... when of course Bidens 'job plan' is closer to $2.5 Trillion. Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make: no one seems to know what the hell is in this massive government bill.


At 12,000 pages, I'm not surprised. Not much is being made of the fact that its a multi year spending plan, 8 years I read. $300B a year seems palatable. Its plan is to create 18M jobs in the next 4 years, which is a good thing, if it works obviously. There's also a plan to pay for it, but we'll see how that fairs.

In any case, we'll have to see what comes out of congress (if anything). I have no doubt there are items in the bill I would disagree with and items I would agree with. I heard recently on some news program that infrastructure spending in the US, mostly locally driven, saw a net $4T fall relatively since the 2008 crash. The GOP & Dems seem to agree something needs to be done, just not what. 

Generally though, someone has a multi year plan, during which $Ts will be spent but paid for (!), creating millions of jobs and improving a wide range of traditional infrastructure, non-trad infrastructure, green technology and green infrastructure etc. Biden's put his stake in the ground, we'll see what if anything passes.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> At 12,000 pages, I'm not surprised. Not much is being made of the fact that its a multi year spending plan, 8 years I read. $300B a year seems palatable. Its plan is to create 18M jobs in the next 4 years, which is a good thing, if it works obviously. There's also a plan to pay for it, but we'll see how that fairs.
> 
> In any case, we'll have to see what comes out of congress (if anything). I have no doubt there are items in the bill I would disagree with and items I would agree with. I heard recently on some news program that infrastructure spending in the US, mostly locally driven, saw a net $4T fall relatively since the 2008 crash. The GOP & Dems seem to agree something needs to be done, just not what.
> 
> Generally though, someone has a multi year plan, during which $Ts will be spent but paid for (!), creating millions of jobs and improving a wide range of traditional infrastructure, non-trad infrastructure, green technology and green infrastructure etc. Biden's put his stake in the ground, we'll see what if anything passes.


So 18m jobs... for $2.5 trillion comes out to around $140,000 per job created.  I'm sorry, but I just feel we can do better.  

Although admittedly, if the plan does pay for itself in the end then I could be convinced otherwise.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So 18m jobs... for $2.5 trillion comes out to around $140,000 per job created.  I'm sorry, but I just feel we can do better.
> 
> Although admittedly, if the plan does pay for itself in the end then I could be convinced otherwise.


Yeah, we'll see where it ends up. It is somewhat refreshing to have someone with an actual plan, written down and presented - to be supported, amended, torn down or whatever. 

BTW, the 18M jobs vs the $2.5T in spending = $140K per job created is a very simplistic view.
- the plan is 18M jobs in the next 4 years
- the plan is $2.5T over the next 8 years

For example, 18M at $60K per year, slightly below the national average, is about $1T in pay annually. Gov takes say 25% between taxes, ss etc, so "makes" $250B back. So for the second 4 years, that's an additional $1T back, so now you are at $84K per job ... and the corp taxes need to be factored in and the tax "revenue" beyond the 8 years etc.

I'm not cheerleading the plan as such, but I am cheerleading that someone has an actual plan which is looking to fix items that need to be fixed (infrastructure) and wants to generate jobs. I'm sure it will differ once Congress is done with it. I do hope it pays for itself ... but I'm very skeptical of that.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

whatithink said:


> Yeah, we'll see where it ends up. It is somewhat refreshing to have someone with an actual plan, written down and presented - to be supported, amended, torn down or whatever.
> 
> BTW, the 18M jobs vs the $2.5T in spending = $140K per job created is a very simplistic view.
> - the plan is 18M jobs in the next 4 years
> ...


Well... maybe simplistic to a guy who shrugs his shoulders about a trillion dollar hole in his understanding of 'the plan'.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... maybe simplistic to a guy who shrugs his shoulders about a trillion dollar hole in his understanding of 'the plan'.


$300B a year isn't a lot in a $21T economy. Creating 18M jobs directly ripples out and creates more. We'll see what the "hole" is when/if congress passes it ... in fact we'll see what the "plan" is when/if!


----------



## tenacious (Apr 8, 2021)

You know what really worries me about 'the plan'.  Let's say we do borrow $2.5 trillion.  Then the next day Russia and China make a coordinated attack on the Ukraine and Taiwan.  I'm nervous about what happens then. How's Jimmy Carter going to pay for that... er, sorry. I mean how's Biden going to handle that?

We need start paying for what we're spending. We need to be realistic about how the world works. Or we're going to end up in trouble.


----------



## Desert Hound (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## whatithink (Apr 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> You know what really worries me about 'the plan'.  Let's say we do borrow $2.5 trillion.  Then the next day Russia and China make a coordinated attack on the Ukraine and Taiwan.  I'm nervous about what happens then. How's Jimmy Carter going to pay for that... er, sorry. I mean how's Biden going to handle that?
> 
> We need start paying for what we're spending. We need to be realistic about how the world works. Or we're going to end up in trouble.


FFS

- borrowing $300B for the next 12 months as part of the 8 year plan isn't going to be a Eureka moment for Russia & China to coordinate shit
- if they do decide to do something in Ukraine or Taiwan, their economies tank just as much as everyone else and they do care about that
- Putin just gave himself a couple of more terms, but is there for life, as is Xi - why would they do anything now?
- neither the GOP or Dems give a shit about paying for what they are spending, not a single one of them in Congress give a crap


----------



## tenacious (Apr 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> FFS
> 
> - borrowing $300B for the next 12 months as part of the 8 year plan isn't going to be a Eureka moment for Russia & China to coordinate shit
> - if they do decide to do something in Ukraine or Taiwan, their economies tank just as much as everyone else and they do care about that
> ...


You're skipping over trillions again.  We're talking about borrowing $4.5 Trillion in less then a year.  After 4 years of Trump who ran the engine at $1.5 trillion a year plus. That's going to have an effect on our ability to protect China from Hong Kong-ing Taiwan, or Russia going Crimea-ing the rest of the Ukraine.  

As for the economic fall out? You understand Russia and China aren't democracies, and that their leaders aren't accountable to their populations. If you look at the world from that perspective, what's a few years of depression for the populous if it adds your name to the list of great emperors and czars that are remembered down history.

Yes I agree neither the gop or dems care about debt. But at this moment I will admit I have more faith in the gop coming around.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> You're skipping over trillions again.  We're talking about borrowing $4.5 Trillion in less then a year.  After 4 years of Trump who ran the engine at $1.5 trillion a year plus. That's going to have an effect on our ability to protect China from Hong Kong-ing Taiwan, or Russia going Crimea-ing the rest of the Ukraine.
> 
> As for the economic fall out? You understand Russia and China aren't democracies, and that their leaders aren't accountable to their populations. If you look at the world from that perspective, what's a few years of depression for the populous if it adds your name to the list of great emperors and czars that are remembered down history.
> 
> Yes I agree neither the gop or dems care about debt. But at this moment I will admit I have more faith in the gop coming around.


I'm not skipping over trillions. Its an 8 year plan, so you don't have to spend it all in year one. It also allegedly pays for itself, but we'll see on that.

I'm meh on Taiwan. They should be able to take care of themselves. They have the money and manpower - have at it. They have zero practical value to the US. The Ukraine has been bubbling for years and will continue. I don't think Putin is going to full on invade a country of 40M who do not want him. He needs the $ from gas & oil exports to fund his fantasy. He may take some more nibbles and it suits him to go all nationalistic. Always be wary of leaders who go all nationalistic ... there are some locally too.

As for the GOP and the debt, that's just hilarious. The GOP care about the national debt when the Dems are in control only. That's it. When they get it back, they rack it up at a faster rate than the Dems.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> I'm not skipping over trillions. Its an 8 year plan, so you don't have to spend it all in year one. It also allegedly pays for itself, but we'll see on that.
> 
> I'm meh on Taiwan. They should be able to take care of themselves. They have the money and manpower - have at it. They have zero practical value to the US. The Ukraine has been bubbling for years and will continue. I don't think Putin is going to full on invade a country of 40M who do not want him. He needs the $ from gas & oil exports to fund his fantasy. He may take some more nibbles and it suits him to go all nationalistic. Always be wary of leaders who go all nationalistic ... there are some locally too.
> 
> As for the GOP and the debt, that's just hilarious. The GOP care about the national debt when the Dems are in control only. That's it. When they get it back, they rack it up at a faster rate than the Dems.


I'm just not into abandoning traditional allies so Joe Biden can fund all this prancing around sprinkling money. It just more bad government that is going to haunt us down the road.

That said, I respect that you think about it differently.  Cheers mate.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I'm just not into abandoning traditional allies so Joe Biden can fund all this prancing around sprinkling money. It just more bad government that is going to haunt us down the road.
> 
> That said, I respect that you think about it differently.  Cheers mate.


No worries. I'm not generally OK with abandoning allies, but Taiwan has had decades to figure out a relationship with China. Obviously that's a very overly simplistic statement but is the US really prepared to go to war with China (or they with us) over Taiwan?

In contrast, I was utterly disgusted with the abandonment of the Kurds after they had literally gone to war in support of and with the US in Syria. The Kurds have bled with the US military in support of US geo political goals, and they were cast aside without a second thought. It was despicable to me.

I likewise respect the difference in opinion and civil conversation.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 9, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No worries. I'm not generally OK with abandoning allies, but Taiwan has had decades to figure out a relationship with China. Obviously that's a very overly simplistic statement but is the US really prepared to go to war with China (or they with us) over Taiwan?
> 
> In contrast, I was utterly disgusted with the abandonment of the Kurds after they had literally gone to war in support of and with the US in Syria. The Kurds have bled with the US military in support of US geo political goals, and they were cast aside without a second thought. It was despicable to me.
> 
> I likewise respect the difference in opinion and civil conversation.


Maybe you should be asking why China is willing to go to war with us over Taiwan? This is an agreement they signed onto. Are we also allowed to go take Panama over again then... or how does this play out long term I wonder if we become unable to offer up any response at all?

Also by now everyone is aware of those re-education camps. Imagine what it must feel like to live somewhere they are about to take over. If Japan, South Korea, Philippines all decide the economic center of gravity has shifted it will only be a matter of months until they start offering China the store to avoid being re-educated. As someone born in a free country I can't even imagine what I would give up to avoid that fate.

Finally as a democrat... allowing the Asian voters to go the way of the 'Cuban' voter is a bad move politically. White guilt isn't a universal American trait.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Maybe you should be asking why China is willing to go to war with us over Taiwan? This is an agreement they signed onto. Are we also allowed to go take Panama over again then... or how does this play out long term I wonder if we become unable to offer up any response at all?
> 
> Also by now everyone is aware of those re-education camps. Imagine what it must feel like to live somewhere they are about to take over. If Japan, South Korea, Philippines all decide the economic center of gravity has shifted it will only be a matter of months until they start offering China the store to avoid being re-educated. As someone born in a free country I can't even imagine what I would give up to avoid that fate.
> 
> Finally as a democrat... allowing the Asian voters to go the way of the 'Cuban' voter is a bad move politically. White guilt isn't a universal American trait.


China considers Taiwan part of China, because it always was until the 40s. Panama, eh!

The treatment of the Uighurs is obscene. 

Asia is already shifting, including the countries you mentioned, RCEP: China signs huge Asia Pacific trade deal with 14 countries - CNN. The TransPacific Partnership would have cemented the economic links but T dumped that. Obama was pivoting to Asia to counter China via the agreement, but T nixed it because ... Obama.

I don't follow the last point. Cuba was a dictatorship and play pen for the rich while the Cubans were piss poor and forgotten. I don't agree with Communism or socialism, but supporting dictators who suck their people dry never ends well. It seems to have as much chance of an opposite reaction (Cuba (Batista) > Communism, Iran (Shah) > religious zealots) as a path to normalcy (Chile (Pinochet) > democracy). You shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the US has "happily" supported many evil dictators who kill and subjugate their own people only to eventually get overthrown. The whole freedom thing seems to stop at our borders, fine for us but whateves about anyone else if it doesn't suit us.


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 9, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Perhaps the creating union jobs didn't focus group well with the ongoing issues with the police and teachers unions.


As people have been brainwashed to vote against their own best interests, against things that help working people. I guess the Globalization of America means regressing from the gains made, Vietnam here we come.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 10, 2021)

whatithink said:


> China considers Taiwan part of China, because it always was until the 40s. Panama, eh!
> 
> The treatment of the Uighurs is obscene.
> 
> ...


So basically we've already lost to China and the Panama Canal has no value... lol


----------



## tenacious (Apr 10, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> As people have been brainwashed to vote against their own best interests, against things that help working people. I guess the Globalization of America means regressing from the gains made, Vietnam here we come.


Gosh Husker, from the first day this nation was created the elites have been saying the dirty masses are too dumb to make it work. But I don't know how well this criticism stands up when you compare how our nation has fared compared to top down model European countries over the past couple hundred years?  You can add all of those countries economies together now... and it's still smaller than what we've got going on here. 

As to globalization? It's already happened... although I will admit that we still haven't worked out totally what that means for the American middle class.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So basically we've already lost to China and the Panama Canal has no value... lol


No on China, and I'm not sure why you went tangential with Panama - there's no comparison of Taiwan and Panama.


----------



## Desert Hound (Apr 15, 2021)

This encapsulates the bias we see from the press on a regular basis.

All the press is biased. It is just that they pretend they are not, and a substantial amount of people think their preferred news source is str8 down the line while others (Fox is a common theme) are not.

But this is an example of how the press can frame a story to look bad related to one person, but have a completely different outlook if it is related to another.









						Drew Holden's thread on media's brazenly biased coverage of Trump and Biden on Afghanistan may be his 'most damning' yet [screenshots]
					

"It isn’t sustainable to have information twisted and crammed into narratives this way."




					twitchy.com


----------



## tenacious (May 1, 2021)

whatithink said:


> No on China, and I'm not sure why you went tangential with Panama - there's no comparison of Taiwan and Panama.


Hmm... my analysis is China is a manufacturing powerhouse, which makes shipping lanes like the Panama Canal vital. While Taiwan without privileged access to 'western' universities and markets is just another island off the coast of China.


----------



## tenacious (May 1, 2021)

Anyone catch Biden's speech the other day? I'd be interested to hear thoughts...


----------



## whatithink (May 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hmm... my analysis is China is a manufacturing powerhouse, which makes shipping lanes like the Panama Canal vital. While Taiwan without privileged access to 'western' universities and markets is just another island off the coast of China.


TransitAndCargoDataModel - Datos 12-29-2020.xlsm (pancanal.com) 

China has < 10% of the traffic and is a distant second to the US.

I still don't get the comparison between Taiwan & Panama. I agree Taiwan is just another island off China.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 6, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Anyone catch Biden's speech the other day? I'd be interested to hear thoughts...


No one cares (not the overwhelming majority that is) that’s the beauty of it! Nice sedate, boring governance once again without all the bluster, bullshit and theatrics. No lies, no rhetoric, no demonizing, no hate, no avoiding questions or giving cryptic non-answers involving racism and other no-brainer should be softball questions, no pandering to the base, no calls for completely insane ideas like nuking storms, putting light inside the body, ingesting bleach, no pandering to dictators, no disrespecting the military, US intelligence, law enforcement, governors, mayors, no bringing up personal feuds, no mocking the disabled, no talk of women not being of a standard he would consider sexually assaulting, no complete blunders involving history, no gaslighting. Boring governance. 

“Are you not entertained!”


----------



## dad4 (May 6, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one cares (not the overwhelming majority that is) that’s the beauty of it! Nice sedate, boring governance once again without all the bluster, bullshit and theatrics. No lies, no rhetoric, no demonizing, no hate, no avoiding questions or giving cryptic non-answers involving racism and other no-brainer should be softball questions, no pandering to the base, no calls for completely insane ideas like nuking storms, putting light inside the body, ingesting bleach, no pandering to dictators, no disrespecting the military, US intelligence, law enforcement, governors, mayors, no bringing up personal feuds, no mocking the disabled, no talk of women not being of a standard he would consider sexually assaulting, no complete blunders involving history, no gaslighting. Boring governance.
> 
> “Are you not entertained!”


It's kind of odd.  Republicans normally do better in low turnout elections, and traditionally put forward candidates who look boring and trustworthy.  Democrats normally need higher turnout, and benefit from high attention candidates.

Now they've flipped.  Republicans are nominating loons and Democrats have doubled down on respectable.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one cares (not the overwhelming majority that is) that’s the beauty of it! Nice sedate, boring governance once again without all the bluster, bullshit and theatrics. No lies, no rhetoric, no demonizing, no hate, no avoiding questions or giving cryptic non-answers involving racism and other no-brainer should be softball questions, no pandering to the base, no calls for completely insane ideas like nuking storms, putting light inside the body, ingesting bleach, no pandering to dictators, no disrespecting the military, US intelligence, law enforcement, governors, mayors, no bringing up personal feuds, no mocking the disabled, no talk of women not being of a standard he would consider sexually assaulting, no complete blunders involving history, no gaslighting. Boring governance.
> 
> “Are you not entertained!”


Personally I would prefer someone between bluster and boring, or as I think of it, bully and milquetoast.  I don't think going from one extreme to another is beneficial to our country, but that's our typical knee jerk reaction.



dad4 said:


> It's kind of odd.  Republicans normally do better in low turnout elections, and traditionally put forward candidates who look boring and trustworthy.  Democrats normally need higher turnout, and benefit from high attention candidates.
> 
> Now they've flipped.  Republicans are nominating loons and Democrats have doubled down on respectable.


It's crazy how much has flipped, Democrats that were once the party of free speech, now promote censorship.  Democrats once represented the blue collar worker and now the Republicans do.

I think we'd be better off with politicians that represented their constituents, instead of the party line.  We need more Manchins and Cheneys.


----------



## espola (May 6, 2021)

watfly said:


> Personally I would prefer someone between bluster and boring, or as I think of it, bully and milquetoast.  I don't think going from one extreme to another is beneficial to our country, but that's our typical knee jerk reaction.
> 
> 
> It's crazy how much has flipped, Democrats that were once the party of free speech, now promote censorship.  Democrats once represented the blue collar worker and now the Republicans do.
> ...


If a lie is repeated enough times, someone will believe it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 6, 2021)

espola said:


> If a lie is repeated enough times, someone will believe it.


Cracks me up when the lies are repeated as if they are just accepted reality. Well at least to those in their bubble.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 6, 2021)

watfly said:


> Personally I would prefer someone between bluster and boring, or as I think of it, bully and milquetoast.  I don't think going from one extreme to another is beneficial to our country, but that's our typical knee jerk reaction.
> 
> 
> It's crazy how much has flipped, Democrats that were once the party of free speech, now promote censorship.  Democrats once represented the blue collar worker and now the Republicans do.
> ...


We are all free to our own opinions but not our own facts.


----------



## espola (May 12, 2021)

The Whigs died off as a national political party when they couldn't agree on a single position about slavery.

Is the current Republican Party (coincidentally, the primary benefactor of the demise of the Whigs) headed for a similar fate, broken on disagreement about t's treasonous behavior?   If only 10% of current Republicans become Democrats, form a new Rational Party (perhaps under some other name than that), or just stay home, the Party will lose its national stature.  It will still have power in some states (e.g. Montana, Alabama, South Carolina) but will otherwise disappear.


----------



## Kicker4Life (May 12, 2021)

espola said:


> The Whigs died off as a national political party when they couldn't agree on a single position about slavery.
> 
> Is the current Republican Party (coincidentally, the primary benefactor of the demise of the Whigs) headed for a similar fate, broken on disagreement about t's treasonous behavior?   If only 10% of current Republicans become Democrats, form a new Rational Party (perhaps under some other name than that), or just stay home, the Party will lose its national stature.  It will still have power in some states (e.g. Montana, Alabama, South Carolina) but will otherwise disappear.


For once we agree…I would take it a step further and say the Conservative Dems should do the same to separate themselves from the “WOKE” far left.  The 2 groups who breakaway could likely get together as they have several overlapping views in common and form their own Centralist party.


----------



## Torros (May 22, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Yeah I agree that some days Biden seems old. Then a couple days later he's rolling past reporters on a mountain bike.  If I had to bet, my $10 would be Harris is going to finish out President Biden's 4 year term but who knows. I'll admit Harris somehow isn't the type of politico that makes my heart go pitter-patter- but she is smart and pragmatic. Let's just hope Biden is able to teach her how to do a better running the country then she did running a presidential campaign.
> 
> As to Biden's son? From what I understand Trump was calling up world leaders and threatening American aid if they didn't dig up dirt on Biden's son... and it doesn't seem to me like it lead to much? Sort of like Trumps election fraud commission. That said, if something is 'really' there that somehow wasn't yet uncovered; then of course all bets are off. Though personally I'm doubtful.
> 
> Also I agree Trumps not going to fade away. However to keep himself in the newspapers he is going to naturally have to keep raising the bar in order to inject himself into the conversation. If Mitch thinks he's got a diva on his hands now, I would tell him to buckle his seat belt.


"From what I understand"

Please continue.


----------



## tenacious (May 30, 2021)

whatithink said:


> TransitAndCargoDataModel - Datos 12-29-2020.xlsm (pancanal.com)
> 
> China has < 10% of the traffic and is a distant second to the US.
> 
> I still don't get the comparison between Taiwan & Panama. I agree Taiwan is just another island off China.


Without going back and reading my old posts, I think  was trying to imagine a scenario where the US might make a hard power move- which was comparable to the Chinese asserting control over Taiwan and Hong Kong. As in- if you are okay with China breaking treaties and simply taking control over Taiwan, are you also okay with the USA annexing Panama?  

Personally I'm not okay with the US just taking over Panama. I'm not okay with China taking over Taiwan. The breaking treaties, annexing of territory... only leads to war. This is why, imho we need to dig our heels in now and not tolerate behavior that will encourage military aggression down the road.


----------



## tenacious (May 30, 2021)

I thought this was an interesting piece by David Frum in the Atlantic. After passing a giant COVID Relief bill, Democrat's momentum seems to have stalled. Take for example the Voting Rights Bill... how the heck did they dems not get it passed? 









						It’s Not Complacency That’s Paralyzing Democrats
					

An overambitious faction of the activist left is standing in the way of voting-rights reform.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## tenacious (May 30, 2021)

Torros said:


> "From what I understand"
> 
> Please continue.


Funny how in today's atmosphere yelling 'burn the witch' is more accepted then saying 'I don't know all the facts' but based on what I've heard this is what I think.


----------



## whatithink (May 30, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Without going back and reading my old posts, I think  was trying to imagine a scenario where the US might make a hard power move- which was comparable to the Chinese asserting control over Taiwan and Hong Kong. As in- if you are okay with China breaking treaties and simply taking control over Taiwan, are you also okay with the USA annexing Panama?
> 
> Personally I'm not okay with the US just taking over Panama. I'm not okay with China taking over Taiwan. The breaking treaties, annexing of territory... only leads to war. This is why, imho we need to dig our heels in now and not tolerate behavior that will encourage military aggression down the road.


I'm not sure what treaty you are referring to. China had a treaty with the UK over Hong Kong and when it expired China took control, as per the treaty. HK was Chinese and always had been. Similarly Taiwan has always been part of China. Its "independence" is a result of a civil war. The US doesn't even have formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan although it does have a security agreement - that is anomalous. So historically, Taiwan is part of China. China still considers it to be. China wouldn't be breaking any treaties if it decided to "take it back". 

Panama is an independent country, some might say created by the US when it was carved out of Columbia, but independent nonetheless. Obviously the US has deep interests there and has been very "involved", but its never claimed that Panama is part of the US and that it intends to "take it back" at some point.

There's a big difference between taking back and taking over. I'm not in favor of either. There are very few things worth going to war over IMO, never mind 2 super powers going to war. If China decided to take Taiwan by force, that wouldn't be worth WW3 and mutual mass destruction.

As for "encouraging military aggression", are you talking about the US or China. There are obviously a very long list of examples of the US for this wrt *external *actions of military aggression, and I can't really of any except Nepal wrt China (PRC). Simply put, in this context, the US (govt) couldn't find or recognize the moral high ground if it was standing on it and looking at the sign.


----------



## Torros (Jun 6, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Funny how in today's atmosphere yelling 'burn the witch' is more accepted then saying 'I don't know all the facts' but based on what I've heard this is what I think.


Funny indeed.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 7, 2021)

espola said:


> If a lie is repeated enough times, someone will believe it.


It started in a market..
He hung himself..
There was no fraud..
It started in Dec of 19'..
Mask protect you..


Gota say that was probably one of you're best post ever!! Well, to be honest,  I didn't go back and read the last year plus of post from you...


----------



## espola (Jun 14, 2021)

Biden is appearing more coherent and competent as time goes on.  Is that due to an increase in confidence?  Or perhaps better doctors?


----------



## what-happened (Jun 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Biden is appearing more coherent and competent as time goes on.  Is that due to an increase in confidence?  Or perhaps better doctors?


Did they finally make the font bigger on the teleprompter?


----------



## watfly (Jun 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Biden is appearing more coherent and competent as time goes on.  Is that due to an increase in confidence?  Or perhaps better doctors?


Compared to Harris...100%, but you can't use her as a yardstick.


----------



## crush (Jun 14, 2021)

Dr Stella would like a big time apology.  I agree 






I like Dr Stella.  Honest Doc and you can tell.   I know a Doc who told me she's a witch Doctor because she said she believes in Demons. I always believed her.  Plus, their are demons everywhere, hello....


----------



## what-happened (Jun 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Biden is appearing more coherent and competent as time goes on.  Is that due to an increase in confidence?  Or perhaps better doctors?


Just wondering what result/action you are tying his competence to.  Using the word coherent in a sentence referencing a president is quite astonishing. 

 I mean, maybe they figured out how to diminish the stair case angle of AF 1 or possibly created some sort of clever off camera wind screen that provides protection from wind gusts on windy days.  Can't have him being blow up the stairs.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Biden is appearing more coherent and competent as time goes on.  Is that due to an increase in confidence?  Or perhaps better doctors?


Did you catch the JV leader at the G7... apparently not!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 14, 2021)

crush said:


> Dr Stella would like a big time apology.  I agree
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are a fool, may God have pity on your willfully ignorant soul.


----------



## crush (Jun 14, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are a fool, may God have pity on your willfully ignorant soul.


God saved me before I was aborted dumb shit!!!  13,000,000+ babies killed already this year.  God loves me so much and I love him.  God loves you too.  God has pity on all of us, if we ask for pity.  Already did.  I pity you Husker.  Lonely life working for the same bossman.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

crush said:


> God saved me before I was aborted dumb shit!!!  13,000,000+ babies killed already this year.  God loves me so much and I love him.  God loves you too.  God has pity on all of us, if we ask for pity.  Already did.  I pity you Husker.  Lonely life working for the same bossman.


He's been living in his own world for a very long time. In previous iterations of this forum his name was Rat Patrol. First post I ever made on here he decided to go after me. This was in soccer section before I even knew this area existed.  What an ass.. he and Tenacious,  back then Tenacious D, considered themselves a tag team of sorts. My demeanor changed when TD launched an attack on my daughter (and no, he doesn't know her). Rat boy loves to brag about things until he's called out then he sulks away and pretends it never happened. But this is probably all old news to you..


----------



## crush (Jun 15, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> He's been living in his own world for a very long time. In previous iterations of this forum his name was Rat Patrol. First post I ever made on here he decided to go after me. This was in soccer section before I even knew this area existed.  What an ass.. he and Tenacious,  back then Tenacious D, considered themselves a tag team of sorts. My demeanor changed when TD launched an attack on my daughter (and no, he doesn't know her). Rat boy loves to brag about things until he's called out then he sulks away and pretends it never happened. But this is probably all old news to you..


I had no idea.  Thanks for the history lesson.  Dude is Messy too?


----------



## espola (Jun 15, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> He's been living in his own world for a very long time. In previous iterations of this forum his name was Rat Patrol. First post I ever made on here he decided to go after me. This was in soccer section before I even knew this area existed.  What an ass.. he and Tenacious,  back then Tenacious D, considered themselves a tag team of sorts. My demeanor changed when TD launched an attack on my daughter (and no, he doesn't know her). Rat boy loves to brag about things until he's called out then he sulks away and pretends it never happened. But this is probably all old news to you..


Look at this -- two trolls trolling each other.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Look at this -- two trolls trolling each other.


I'm sorry.. I left you out. While Rat Boy and TD were always hanging out with each other you were too busy running around asking guys if they use their fly or drop their pants at the urinal. Urinals and girls underwear,  perfect fit for you. 

BTW... what pronoun do you prefer to go by?


----------



## espola (Jun 15, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> I'm sorry.. I left you out. While Rat Boy and TD were always hanging out with each other you were too busy running around asking guys if they use their fly or drop their pants at the urinal. Urinals and girls underwear,  perfect fit for you.
> 
> BTW... what pronoun do you prefer to go by?


Thanks for providing an example to my proverb. 

Since I know you have lied about me, that leads me to believe that you would lie about others.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Thanks for providing an example to my proverb.
> 
> Since I know you have lied about me, that leads me to believe that you would lie about others.


Don't you have a fetish to tend to? Pervert....


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

crush said:


> I had no idea.  Thanks for the history lesson.  Dude is Messy too?


Messy, We and Legend...same guy.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

crush said:


> I had no idea.  Thanks for the history lesson.  Dude is Messy too?


Messy, Wez, Legend


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> He's been living in his own world for a very long time. In previous iterations of this forum his name was Rat Patrol. First post I ever made on here he decided to go after me. This was in soccer section before I even knew this area existed.  What an ass.. he and Tenacious,  back then Tenacious D, considered themselves a tag team of sorts. My demeanor changed when TD launched an attack on my daughter (and no, he doesn't know her). Rat boy loves to brag about things until he's called out then he sulks away and pretends it never happened. But this is probably all old news to you..


Brag? Examples please.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Thanks for providing an example to my proverb.
> 
> Since I know you have lied about me, that leads me to believe that you would lie about others.


Sometimes it almost feels wrong pointing out the hypocrisy and lies of these types as they seem to be so tortured by the world already, sometimes.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Brag? Examples please.


How's your riding these days? I recall you posting about riding Potato Mtn and how I couldn't hang with you... when I started to inquire further and revealed I raced Pro XC and was sponsored you got awfully quite.  I offered to go for a ride with you.. climb Indian Truck Trail, Potato, Palomar via Harding. You disappeared.  Then you were running your mouth when I brought up the free pass in Baseball. Again, you claimed you were some kind of expert and when pressed you turned out to be a fraud.. you never played beyond LL. And don't get me started about your football..American OR European.

Hey Sunshine...go back to day drinking.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2021)

What's wrong Rabbit Ears errr Sunshine... you forget already?


----------



## tenacious (Jun 16, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> He's been living in his own world for a very long time. In previous iterations of this forum his name was Rat Patrol. First post I ever made on here he decided to go after me. This was in soccer section before I even knew this area existed.  What an ass.. he and Tenacious,  back then Tenacious D, considered themselves a tag team of sorts. My demeanor changed when TD launched an attack on my daughter (and no, he doesn't know her). Rat boy loves to brag about things until he's called out then he sulks away and pretends it never happened. But this is probably all old news to you..


Hello Multi, it's been a while. Nice to see you again. First let me say I'm happy you've dropped the whole bible quoting trip, and have gone full angry Trump Republican. I mean, I can understand wanting tax cuts and guns... but frankly the Jesus quotes while you argued for protecting your worldly assets was always a bit much for me.  

As to attacking your kid. I think it was more like I said 'the acorn doesn't falling far from the tree.'  Although being familiar with how you behave in here, I guess I can see why you see this line of thinking is an insult.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 16, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hello Multi, it's been a while. Nice to see you again. First let me say I'm happy you've dropped the whole bible quoting trip, and have gone full angry Trump Republican. I mean, I can understand wanting tax cuts and guns... but frankly the Jesus quotes while you argued for protecting your worldly assets was always a bit much for me.
> 
> As to attacking your kid. I think it was more like I said 'the acorn doesn't falling far from the tree.'  Although being familiar with how you behave in here, I guess I can see why you see this line of thinking is an insult.


Nice try TD.... even Andy ended up saying you went to far going after my DD.

The three Stooges... only those guys were smarter.  Bible quotes are lost on you guys. Magoo even said you can't fool him, he knows the Bible because he went to Sunday school... and I don't recall any resistance from the Stooges when Andy proudly said that an unborn child is a parasite...

But I'm sure you're good these days... working in that woke industry must be fun.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> How's your riding these days? I recall you posting about riding Potato Mtn and how I couldn't hang with you... when I started to inquire further and revealed I raced Pro XC and was sponsored you got awfully quite.  I offered to go for a ride with you.. climb Indian Truck Trail, Potato, Palomar via Harding. You disappeared.  Then you were running your mouth when I brought up the free pass in Baseball. Again, you claimed you were some kind of expert and when pressed you turned out to be a fraud.. you never played beyond LL. And don't get me started about your football..American OR European.
> 
> Hey Sunshine...go back to day drinking.


You are making things up or confusing me with someone else. None of that ever happened. Sorry but again you have exposed yourself as a desperate liar.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are making things up or confusing me with someone else. None of that ever happened. Sorry but again you have exposed yourself as a desperate liar.


Oh Sunshine.. did you have another one of your blackouts? So was it Magoo thT said that stuff.. nope. He knows his lane. Was it TD? Hardly. Andy? Have you seen that guy?! Impossible.  We? He actually does ride but not him. That leaves you..that's your MO. Always has been even in your Rat form. I know it must be rough to be outed like that again but if you stop falling off the wagon maybe you'll have better recollection. 

Cheers Rat Boy...


----------



## crush (Jun 16, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> Nice try TD.... even Andy ended up saying you went to far going after my DD.
> 
> The three Stooges... only those guys were smarter.  Bible quotes are lost on you guys. Magoo even said you can't fool him, he knows the Bible because he went to Sunday school... and I don't recall any resistance from the Stooges when Andy proudly said that an unborn child is a parasite...
> 
> But I'm sure you're good these days... working in that woke industry must be fun.


These people are nasty for wanting death to little babies and full of envy, jealousy and poop!!!  Let me tell you, I still have assholes going after my dd from years ago.  It's nice to get a better understanding of who Andy and TD are.  We all know Magoo.  He lost his faith and I'm here to help get Magoo get back on the right track.  He has the Sunday School Foundation so their is some hope.......


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 16, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hello Multi, it's been a while. Nice to see you again. First let me say I'm happy you've dropped the whole bible quoting trip, and have gone full angry Trump Republican. I mean, I can understand wanting tax cuts and guns... but frankly the Jesus quotes while you argued for protecting your worldly assets was always a bit much for me.
> 
> As to attacking your kid. I think it was more like I said 'the acorn doesn't falling far from the tree.'  Although being familiar with how you behave in here, I guess I can see why you see this line of thinking is an insult.


I'll give you props though... it would have been easy to go the "I never said that" route like Magoo and Rat Boy. You owned up to what you said...you tried to walk it back but you didn't deny it. Maybe you can teach those other two how to do the same thing...

Doubtful... can't teach an old dog,.. I won't finish that. It's a put down to dogs to compare them to those two.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> Oh Sunshine.. did you have another one of your blackouts? So was it Magoo thT said that stuff.. nope. He knows his lane. Was it TD? Hardly. Andy? Have you seen that guy?! Impossible.  We? He actually does ride but not him. That leaves you..that's your MO. Always has been even in your Rat form. I know it must be rough to be outed like that again but if you stop falling off the wagon maybe you'll have better recollection.
> 
> Cheers Rat Boy...


You are a known liar. I had a discussion with nono about the Mt. Baldy race I went to with a friend who was in it, but never claimed to be in that class of rider. I never remember you challenging me or even mentioning any of those rides. WTF is potato? You may have replied after I put your useless, insecure, lying ass on ignore. You never added anything to any discussion beyond lies, as hominem and your own bragging.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are a known liar. I had a discussion with nono about the Mt. Baldy race I went to with a friend who was in it, but never claimed to be in that class of rider. I never remember you challenging me or even mentioning any of those rides. WTF is potato? You may have replied after I put your useless, insecure, lying ass on ignore. You never added anything to any discussion beyond lies, as hominem and your own bragging.


Keep telling yourself that Sunshine... it's really sad to see a grown man ( sorry, do you prefer another pronoun?) resort to denying the truth. At least TD is honorable enough to admit to what he said (kinda) but you and Magoo just love to throw crap on the wall then deny you did.. well in your case you have an excuse, too much drinking. 

Cheers Rat Boy...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> Keep telling yourself that Sunshine... it's really sad to see a grown man ( sorry, do you prefer another pronoun?) resort to denying the truth. At least TD is honorable enough to admit to what he said (kinda) but you and Magoo just love to throw crap on the wall then deny you did.. well in your case you have an excuse, too much drinking.
> 
> Cheers Rat Boy...


Nice try nutter.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Nice try nutter.


Typical..


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 17, 2021)

NBA players are soft compared to fast food workers. Guys popcorn thrown at them and their ready to throw down...









						Woman Goes Viral After Epic Super-Sized Brawl With McDonald's Employees
					

One disgruntled McDonald's customer in Ohio certainly wasn't "Lovin' It" when it came to her experience at a Ravenna restaurant.




					www.entrepreneur.com


----------



## tenacious (Jun 18, 2021)

Alright... now that we're all acquainted in here, let's talk about how we're going to pay for all the new roads the Federal Government is talking about fixing. Personally I say most of the cost of maintaining the roads should be carried by the folks who use the roads. If it's not gas taxes (and mileage taxes)- that leaves us with road tolls? Hmm.  









						Biden objects to raising gas tax to pay for infrastructure
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House made clear Friday that President Joe Biden was opposed to letting the federal gasoline tax rise at the rate of inflation to help pay for an infrastructure package that a bipartisan group of 21 senators is trying to craft.




					apnews.com


----------



## espola (Jun 18, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Alright... now that we're all acquainted in here, let's talk about how we're going to pay for all the new roads the Federal Government is talking about fixing. Personally I say most of the cost of maintaining the roads should be carried by the folks who use the roads. If it's not gas taxes (and mileage taxes)- that leaves us with road tolls? Hmm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Toll roads and all cars are equipped with transponder?


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Toll roads and all cars are equipped with transponder?


Well, I would imagine there is already a gps and transponder on close to every Tesla, Prius and non-gas using contemporary electric car on the road in America today?

Older gas using cars would just continue paying a gas tax.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Toll roads and all cars are equipped with transponder?


However in regard to toll roads... I guess my point is as the number of non-gas using electric cars continues to grow (remembering electric cars don't pay a gas tax), then not only won't there be money to pay for Biden's infrastructure plan, but soon there won't be money for maintaining what we already have. So how do we pay for the roads? 

I haven't heard what Biden's plan is yet. But assuming he's going to continue the tradition of having drivers pay for the roads they use- if it's not going to be a gas tax that pays for the new road infrastructure; I'd think it would have to be we start using road tolls?


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> However in regard to toll roads... I guess my point is as the number of non-gas using electric cars continues to grow (remembering electric cars don't pay a gas tax), then not only won't there be money to pay for Biden's infrastructure plan, but soon there won't be money for maintaining what we already have. So how do we pay for the roads?
> 
> I haven't heard what Biden's plan is yet. But assuming he's going to continue the tradition of having drivers pay for the roads they use- if it's not going to be a gas tax that pays for the new road infrastructure; I'd think it would have to be we start using road tolls?


 Existing technology makes that possible, and what is possible in technology is turning out to be inevitable.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Existing technology makes that possible, and what is possible in technology is turning out to be inevitable.


Well... at least take comfort after a year of being locked inside, with internet access, you've likely hit the point where big tech knows so much about you that you don't have many secrets left anyway?


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... at least take comfort after a year of being locked inside, with internet access, you've likely hit the point where big tech knows so much about you that you don't have many secrets left anyway?


Example -- A few days ago I signed up for a 30-day free trial of Amazon Prime (I admit it was a moment of weakness because I didn't really need the 2-day delivery on raw peanuts for wild bird feed).  Trying to get the most out of the trial, I started reading a Kindle book on my laptop's Amazon account page.  That caused me to wonder if the book could be transferred to the Kindle Fire that my kids gave me as a Christmas gift years ago and that I had set aside for some time unused since I haven't been traveling anywhere in the last year or so.  Well -- not only does my Amazon account already know all the ebooks on my Kindle, the Kindle knew about the book I had been reading on my laptop and even opened it to the right page.


----------



## crush (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... at least take comfort after a year of being locked inside, with internet access, you've likely hit the point where big tech knows so much about you that you don't have many secrets left anyway?


Were all being watched.  I say confess with a good heart and then it can;t be used against you.  Everything you say and do is recorded, video tapped and all of us will have to give an account.  Right now on planet earth, some bad families had control of everything you ever did and used it to black mail your ass.  Some really good people also got set up and put in some evil situations.  For example, did you here about ________________________________________?  He was told to do this _________________ or else.  To make sure he did what they wanted, they put one of his staffers in a wood chipper and showed him the video.  Another dude who happily married was drugged on an Island and had photos of him with_________________________________ and he was controlled like puppet.  When you swim with evil even if you didn't believe in evil, expect evil in return. 80,000,000+ babies killed before birth and then many were kept alive without mommy knowing.  The day of reckoning is fast approaching.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Example -- A few days ago I signed up for a 30-day free trial of Amazon Prime (I admit it was a moment of weakness because I didn't really need the 2-day delivery on raw peanuts for wild bird feed).  Trying to get the most out of the trial, I started reading a Kindle book on my laptop's Amazon account page.  That caused me to wonder if the book could be transferred to the Kindle Fire that my kids gave me as a Christmas gift years ago and that I had set aside for some time unused since I haven't been traveling anywhere in the last year or so.  Well -- not only does my Amazon account already know all the ebooks on my Kindle, the Kindle knew about the book I had been reading on my laptop and even opened it to the right page.


That's both amazing, but also terrifying when I start to imagine possible ways it could be misused. Also isn't Kindle an Amazon designed software product? 

How do you like the kindle? I've switched over to a kindle as well. It's waterproof, fits in a coat pocket and so far has options for every title I've looked for.  I love books and want to hate eReaders... but damn. There is a lot to like.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

crush said:


> Were all being watched.  I say confess with a good heart and then it can;t be used against you.  Everything you say and do is recorded, video tapped and all of us will have to give an account.  Right now on planet earth, some bad families had control of everything you ever did and used it to black mail your ass.  Some really good people also got set up and put in some evil situations.  For example, did you here about ________________________________________?  He was told to do this _________________ or else.  To make sure he did what they wanted, they put one of his staffers in a wood chipper and showed him the video.  Another dude who happily married was drugged on an Island and had photos of him with_________________________________ and he was controlled like puppet.  When you swim with evil even if you didn't believe in evil, expect evil in return. 80,000,000+ babies killed before birth and then many were kept alive without mommy knowing.  The day of reckoning is fast approaching.


I'd agree in as so far as saying its sure seems to me if you want a lot of the goodies then you're open to being watched. Although I don't take it much further then trying to be smart about the links I click on and covering the computer camera on my laptop with a little cover that I can open for meetings.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Existing technology makes that possible, and what is possible in technology is turning out to be inevitable.


But to go back to your point. If the goal is to have the people who use the roads (from the trucks carrying goods to the $100k electric cars), how do you charge everyone fairly. Gas make charging people for how long they drove on the roads easy. But electric cars are here and at some point they got to pay for use.

Sort of like a bumper sticker I read on the wall at a Barney's Beaniery 'Gas, grass, or ass- nobody rides for free.' Those roads got to get paid for somehow.


----------



## crush (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I'd agree in as so far as saying its sure seems to me if you want a lot of the goodies then you're open to being watched. Although I don't take it much further then trying to be smart about the links I click on and covering the computer camera on my laptop with a little cover that I can open for meetings.


I say hi every morning.  The smart phone is all they need, end of story.  The only way to get away is to live in a cave with no phone and computer.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 19, 2021)

espola said:


> Example -- A few days ago I signed up for a 30-day free trial of Amazon Prime (I admit it was a moment of weakness because I didn't really need the 2-day delivery on raw peanuts for wild bird feed).  Trying to get the most out of the trial, I started reading a Kindle book on my laptop's Amazon account page.  That caused me to wonder if the book could be transferred to the Kindle Fire that my kids gave me as a Christmas gift years ago and that I had set aside for some time unused since I haven't been traveling anywhere in the last year or so.  Well -- not only does my Amazon account already know all the ebooks on my Kindle, the Kindle knew about the book I had been reading on my laptop and even opened it to the right page.


“Yeah but the vaccine has a tracking device in it!”


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> That's both amazing, but also terrifying when I start to imagine possible ways it could be misused. Also isn't Kindle an Amazon designed software product?
> 
> How do you like the kindle? I've switched over to a kindle as well. It's waterproof, fits in a coat pocket and so far has options for every title I've looked for.  I love books and want to hate eReaders... but damn. There is a lot to like.


I use it when I am traveling and don't want to be weighed down by a lot of books.  I was pleased to see that after sitting on the shelf for over a year and wanting a battery charge it remembered everything (although ti thought it was December 31 until I hooked it up to our new wifi).


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2021)

tenacious said:


> But to go back to your point. If the goal is to have the people who use the roads (from the trucks carrying goods to the $100k electric cars), how do you charge everyone fairly. Gas make charging people for how long they drove on the roads easy. But electric cars are here and at some point they got to pay for use.
> 
> Sort of like a bumper sticker I read on the wall at a Barney's Beaniery 'Gas, grass, or ass- nobody rides for free.' Those roads got to get paid for somehow.


I first saw this in Calculus class in the '60s when studying the Mean Value Theorem.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 25, 2021)

As a moderate... I think this is a good development.









						Infrastructure breakthrough marks victory for political center
					

President Biden’s deal with a bipartisan group of 10 senators is throwing a lifeline to one of Washington’s most endangered species: the political center. The agreement announced outside the W…




					thehill.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 25, 2021)

tenacious said:


> As a moderate... I think this is a good development.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only fools want to stay stagnant. Hopefully something happens as in four years of constant “infrastructure week” trump did nothing.


----------



## N00B (Jun 25, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Only fools want to stay stagnant. Hopefully something happens as in four years of constant “infrastructure week” trump did nothing.


One group seems to still be open to bipartisanship.  I’m guessing we disagree on which group that is. 

Policy (action) is possible only when you look at the issues and work together on solutions.  

Biden didn’t make bipartisanship happen due to his personality.  Bipartisanship was prevented in the last administration due to a lack of willingness from one side to look at the issues instead of the personality of the executive branch at the time.

Kudos to those, who now are not in control of the executive branch, that are willing to take action and make policy in a bipartisan fashion by addressing the issues at hand.

A ‘do nothing congress’ doesn’t benefit the populace…  Regardless of who holds the executive branch of government.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 25, 2021)

N00B said:


> One group seems to still be open to bipartisanship.  I’m guessing we disagree on which group that is.
> 
> Policy (action) is possible only when you look at the issues and work together on solutions.
> 
> ...


A detailed examination of the prior administration’s idea of “infrastructure” exposed a litany of tax breaks for private profit projects not the public projects we actually need. Some people are single minded.



			https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/trump-infrastructure-plan-far-less-than-the-claimed-1-trillion-in-new


----------



## Bruddah IZ (Jun 30, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> A detailed examination of the prior administration’s idea of “infrastructure” exposed a litany of tax breaks for private profit projects not the public projects we actually need. Some people are single minded.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/trump-infrastructure-plan-far-less-than-the-claimed-1-trillion-in-new


A detailed examination you say?


----------



## tenacious (Jul 4, 2021)

I'm with Joe on this one. I don't care about people smoking pot... but I can understand why the IOC gets uptight and wants to take steps to ensure Olympic glory only falls on the shoulders of upstanding, drug-free athletes? 'Organic' athletes is a fundamental part of the product the world pays to watch the Olympics...









						Biden on Richardson suspension: ‘The rules are the rules’
					

President Biden weighed in on Sha’Carri Richardson’s one-month suspension following her positive marijuana test, telling reporters Saturday that “the rules are the rules.”Richardso…




					thehill.com


----------



## tenacious (Jul 4, 2021)

I think at some point California needs to answer to the rest of the nation on why it's producing such political lemons? California used to laugh at the parts of the country that Dan Quayle 'type' politicos came from...









						‘Not a healthy environment’: Kamala Harris’ office rife with dissent
					

There is dysfunction inside the VP’s office, aides and administration officials say. And it’s emanating from the top.




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Aug 14, 2021)

I'm trying to get my head around the politics of the infrastructure bill. I mean do moderates have the votes to pass an infrastructure bill without the socialists? Hmm...

As a moderate who thinks spending $3.5 trillion on human infrastructure is going to end up in a 'defund the police' disaster of unworkable wokeness... this is feeling like a very savvy move. Sure progressives might be able to leverage the twitter mob to muster the votes to kill the infrastructure bill. But hard to see how that move doesn't come back to haunt them when primary season rolls back around; as fundraising off your ability to gum up the works plays differently when your party is running things.









						Moderates revolt on infrastructure in new challenge for Pelosi
					

The Democrats’ strategy for enacting President Biden’s agenda hit a major snag Friday when nine House moderates bucked party leaders with threats of tanking a $3.5 trillion budget bill …




					thehill.com


----------



## crush (Aug 14, 2021)

President Biden is taking a vacation right now.  All I know is about $5,000,000,000,000 was just passed.  Bridges & Roads and so much more.  I hear Nancy is giving away raises and Mitch is looking to do some business with contractors.  You have to be jabbed to bid on all this incredible opportunity.


----------



## crush (Aug 14, 2021)

More from President Biden's Admin.  Cash if you Obey

*Biden admin targets DeSantis ban on mask mandates, offers cash to Florida school districts defying governor*


----------



## crush (Aug 14, 2021)

It's time to roll up them sleeves and go get some of that money for many of you.  $5 Trillion plus all the other Trillions last year.  Do as I say and you can have access to the funds they say.  Top 7 seven things you need to get straight in your little brain.  #1, get jabbed as many times as we tell you.  #2, wear a mask forever.  #3, do not not support t or any of his followers and only support abortion and human trafficking and the jabs that come with them.  #4, If you're white, kneel and ask for forgiveness if you haven't already.  #5, STFU!!!  #6, don't ever question us you Schmuck.  #7, STFU some more and your freedom is no more.............. "if you take the money like Judus did"


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)




----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

When JB get's back from vacation, he will have a meeting with the new Afghani leadership.  Look, a new pic of the Taliban and their new pals from China.  20 years ago I thought this and that, but I was so wrong about all that.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 15, 2021)

August 14, 2021
					

On this day in 1935, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act into law. While FDR’s New Deal had put in place new measures to regulate business and banking and had provided temporary work relief to combat the Depression, this law permanently changed the nature of the...




					heathercoxrichardson.substack.com


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> August 14, 2021
> 
> 
> On this day in 1935, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act into law. While FDR’s New Deal had put in place new measures to regulate business and banking and had provided temporary work relief to combat the Depression, this law permanently changed the nature of the...
> ...


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

1. The eviction moratorium is technically an impeachable offense. If trump had defied the Supreme Court we’d be calling for his impeachment. But impeachment is no longer legal…it’s political.

2. i never supported nation building in Afghanistan. Bush bears a huge responsibility for creating the mess. Obama for doubling down on it. Trump for laying down the framework for leaving. But they way Biden has handled the withdrawal has been abysmal. His communication and going to camp David in the middle of this and waiting for at least 24 hours (maybe days) to say something is inexcusable.

back to no politics for me.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 1. The eviction moratorium is technically an impeachable offense. If trump had defied the Supreme Court we’d be calling for his impeachment. But impeachment is no longer legal…it’s political.
> 
> 2. i never supported nation building in Afghanistan. Bush bears a huge responsibility for creating the mess. Obama for doubling down on it. Trump for laying down the framework for leaving. But they way Biden has handled the withdrawal has been abysmal. His communication and going to camp David in the middle of this and waiting for at least 24 hours (maybe days) to say something is inexcusable.
> 
> back to no politics for me.


Technically, anything is an impeachable offense.  However, I will offer you an opportunity to explain your statement.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 1. The eviction moratorium is technically an impeachable offense. If trump had defied the Supreme Court we’d be calling for his impeachment. But impeachment is no longer legal…it’s political.
> 
> 2. i never supported nation building in Afghanistan. Bush bears a huge responsibility for creating the mess. Obama for doubling down on it. Trump for laying down the framework for leaving. But they way Biden has handled the withdrawal has been abysmal. His communication and going to camp David in the middle of this and waiting for at least 24 hours (maybe days) to say something is inexcusable.
> 
> back to no politics for me.


The tight time frame is driven by a May 1 deadline to withdraw the remaining U.S. troops from Afghanistan, as required under a deal with the Taliban that President Biden inherited from the Trump administration.









						Leaving Afghanistan under Trump deal could spur chaos, U.S. commanders say
					

In Afghanistan, Taliban militants could threaten major cities unless President Biden's administration can progress on a peace deal by May, top U.S. commanders said.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Technically, anything is an impeachable offense.  However, I will offer you an opportunity to explain your statement.


I agree with you. Anything is now an impeachable offense. It’s purely a question of whether you have the votes now

technically you are supposed to have a high crime and misdemeanor.  The Supreme Court has already ruled that the eviction moratorium is unconstitutional and if the president wants something like that congress needs to vote.  Biden enacted a rule that he knows is unconstitutional and even admitted as much that it would likely not survive review. If trump had defied the Supreme Court the ds would have rightly screamed bloody murder.  Biden has violated his oath to uphold the constitution.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The tight time frame is driven by a May 1 deadline to withdraw the remaining U.S. troops from Afghanistan, as required under a deal with the Taliban that President Biden inherited from the Trump administration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree trump bears a ton of responsibility for this. But Biden did execute it under his watch and so is ultimately the most responsible. The pull out would be bad enough but being awol during all this makes it inexcusable (I’d hold trump to the same standard had he gone golfing at mar largo and failed to address it)


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> 1. The eviction moratorium is technically an impeachable offense. If trump had defied the Supreme Court we’d be calling for his impeachment. But impeachment is no longer legal…it’s political.
> 
> 2. i never supported nation building in Afghanistan. Bush bears a huge responsibility for creating the mess. Obama for doubling down on it. Trump for laying down the framework for leaving. But they way Biden has handled the withdrawal has been abysmal. His communication and going to camp David in the middle of this and waiting for at least 24 hours (maybe days) to say something is inexcusable.
> 
> back to no politics for me.


Technically, anything is an impeachable offense.  However, I will offer you an opportunity to explain your statement.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> *I agree trump bears a ton of responsibility for this.* But Biden did execute it under his watch and so is ultimately the most responsible. The pull out would be bad enough but being awol during all this makes it inexcusable (I’d hold trump to the same standard had he gone golfing at mar largo and failed to address it)


Throw in some T because it sounds so sweet and makes people feel their hate for him is justified.  T was 100% against this war and you know it. This is so deep and anyone with a brain can see wtf happened Grace in 2001.  I know way too many people who went to serve over there and now all this is sad.  Leave T out of this one is what two of my pals said earlier today.  Air Force bros   I'm not a fan of T all the time but to blame him with a ton of blame seems weak, moo!  Carry on with your politics Grace.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I agree with you. Anything is now an impeachable offense. It’s purely a question of whether you have the votes now
> 
> technically you are supposed to have a high crime and misdemeanor.  The Supreme Court has already ruled that the eviction moratorium is unconstitutional and if the president wants something like that congress needs to vote.  Biden enacted a rule that he knows is unconstitutional and even admitted as much that it would likely not survive review. If trump had defied the Supreme Court the ds would have rightly screamed bloody murder.  Biden has violated his oath to uphold the constitution.


I wasn't aware that the Supreme Court had ruled on this matter, or even heard arguments on it. The last I head, SCOTUS ruled 5-4 to let the moratorium m stay in place temporarily pending further arguments.   Seems kind of harsh to impeach a guy for violating a SCOTUS decision when they have not made a decision yet.

Am I missing something?  I obviously don't get all the news that you are fed every day.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> *Bush bears a huge responsibility for creating the mess.*
> 
> *back to no politics for me. * ((Ya right))


Oh please.  Bush was on a string Grace.  You give him way too much credit for getting us in this "mess."  This is Rabbit Hole stuff Grace and Bushes were in it for the money and power.  Prescott was a dirty old dog, just like Jorge Soros.  Nasty asses!!!


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I agree trump bears a ton of responsibility for this. But Biden did execute it under his watch and so is ultimately the most responsible. The pull out would be bad enough but being awol during all this makes it inexcusable (I’d hold trump to the same standard had he gone golfing at mar largo and failed to address it)


What do you mean by "awol"?  He is at Camp David, which has all the same communication facilities as the White House. 

Could you do us a favor in the future and let us know which hand is in your sockpuppet?


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I wasn't aware that the Supreme Court had ruled on this matter, or even heard arguments on it. The last I head, SCOTUS ruled 5-4 to let the moratorium m stay in place temporarily pending further arguments.   Seems kind of harsh to impeach a guy for violating a SCOTUS decision when they have not made a decision yet.
> 
> Am I missing something?  I obviously don't get all the news that you are fed every day.


As usual you lack any understanding. 5 justices ruled the cdc lacked the authority to do it by order. Kavanaugh stayed to give congress time to act. If trumpy had done this the ds would rIghtly be livid. Carrying the ds talking points again I see. What else is new for d mouth piece.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> What do you mean by "awol"?  He is at Camp David, which has all the same communication facilities as the White House.
> 
> Could you do us a favor in the future and let us know which hand is in your sockpuppet?


you are the worst hypocrite. If trump had hidden at mar lago you’d all be screaming murder.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> As usual you lack any understanding. 5 justices ruled the cdc lacked the authority to do it by order. Kavanaugh stayed to give congress time to act. If trumpy had done this the ds would rIghtly be livid. Carrying the ds talking points again I see. What else is new for d mouth piece.


It seems you agree with me, but you don't want to admit it, so you just craap out an ad hominem instead.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> It seems you agree with me, but you don't want to admit it, so you just craap out an ad hominem instead.


That’s funny coming from you the king of the personal jibes. Your usual garbage.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> *What do you mean by "awol"?  He is at Camp David, which has all the same communication facilities as the White House.*


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> you are the worst hypocrite. If trump had hidden at mar lago you’d all be screaming murder.


You are obviously lying, which means you are desperate.  

And the name given it by Ms. Post years ago is Mar-a-Lago, suggesting a place between an ocean and a lake, which is only true in a poetic sense.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace, Espola has the upper hand on you today.  Tons of blame on T is flat out wrong on this disaster.  I mean, really wrong.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> You are obviously lying, which means you are desperate.
> 
> And the name given it by Ms. Post years ago is Mar-a-Lago, suggesting a place between an ocean and a lake, which is only true in a poetic sense.


You are obviously an idiot. What else is new?


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> That’s funny coming from you the king of the personal jibes. Your usual garbage.


I still don't see a direct admission of your error about JB being "awol" while he is instead working from his alternate office every day.  

That "awol" swipe seems to be leaking out of a lot of right-wing sources today.  Are you at least embarrassed that you got caught up in it?


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are obviously an idiot. What else is new?


You seem hurt.  Is there anything I can do?  

Here's a thought - before you rush breathlessly into the forum with the latest nugget from your wingnut twitter feed, take a few minutes to check to see if they are lying to you.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I still don't see a direct admission of your error about JB being "awol" while he is instead working from his alternate office every day.
> 
> That "awol" swipe seems to be leaking out of a lot of right-wing sources today.  Are you at least embarrassed that you got caught up in it?


He is awol 


espola said:


> You seem hurt.  Is there anything I can do?
> 
> Here's a thought - before you rush breathlessly into the forum with the latest nugget from your wingnut twitter feed, take a few minutes to check to see if they are lying to you.


he is awol. He should be at the White House and address the American people or at a minimum address the press instead of hiding away at camp David. Trumpy would be the same if he hid at mar largo.

i may seem to be hurt but you are a moron, moron.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> He is awol
> 
> he is awol. He should be at the White House and address the American people or at a minimum address the press instead of hiding away at camp David. Trumpy would be the same if he hid at mar largo.
> 
> i may seem to be hurt but you are a moron, moron.


Should?  There is only should.  There is only is.

Hiding?  Everyone knows where he is and anyone who has a real reason to speak with him can do it.

Are you still hurt about being made a public fool by people you thought were your friends?


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Should?  There is only should.  There is only is.
> 
> Hiding?  Everyone knows where he is and anyone who has a real reason to speak with him can do it.
> 
> Are you still hurt about being made a public fool by people you thought were your friends?


Nah I’m just laughing at you that you are arguing about the cherry (press access) on the biggest foreign policy shit sundae a president has served up in years: with no explanation and the admin already stating there will be no public statement or press tomorrow either.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Nah I’m just laughing at you that you are arguing about the cherry (press access) on the biggest foreign policy shit sundae a president has served up in years: with no explanation and the admin already stating there will be no public statement or press tomorrow either.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Look what Wendy said T would have done if he were in charge.  Plus, t left the playbook to get out and Joe did something else.  it's ok, he makes the call.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

crush said:


> View attachment 11414


Next few days. It should be today…tomorrow at the latest given the historic importance. If trump pulled this people would be screaming. That’s the standard.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Nah I’m just laughing at you that you are arguing about the cherry (press access) on the biggest foreign policy shit sundae a president has served up in years: with no explanation and the admin already stating there will be no public statement or press tomorrow either.


I'm sure you think that makes sense.

I did a quick survey of all the people in the room and the universal opinion is "I thought we left there already".


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Next few days. It should be today…tomorrow at the latest given the historic importance. If trump pulled this people would be screaming. That’s the standard.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I'm sure you think that makes sense.
> 
> I did a quick survey of all the people in the room and the universal opinion is "I thought we left there already".


Your room is on a different planet. Am watching msnbc and cnn and even they have been critical. “Kinda surprised we haven’t heard from him today”. If you’ve lost msnbc and cnn you’ve lost the room.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Next few days. It should be today…tomorrow at the latest given the historic importance. If trump pulled this people would be screaming. That’s the standard.


Why don't you show us your knowledge of foreign affairs by telling us what t did about the Afghanistan issue when he had the chance.

I can see why you don't do much political posting here.  You're really bad at it.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Why don't you show us your knowledge of foreign affairs by telling us what t did about the Afghanistan issue when he had the chance.
> 
> I can see why you don't do much political posting here.  You're really bad at it.


You are the worst kind of hack. Even msnbc and cnn are critical but you never met a d talking point you didn’t like.  It’s hilarious you once tried to pass yourself off as a conservative or even a moderate.  You are defending him when he’s lost cnn and msnbc.

as for trump I’ve already said he bush and Obama bear some responsibility.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> You are the worst kind of hack. Even msnbc and cnn are critical but you never met a d talking point you didn’t like.  It’s hilarious you once tried to pass yourself off as a conservative or even a moderate.  You are defending him when he’s lost cnn and msnbc.
> 
> as for trump I’ve already said he bush and Obama bear some responsibility.


I just copied this from CNN --

"One option under discussion is to have Biden return to the White House, though the official cautioned that they had not completely ruled out making the remarks from Camp David.

Earlier today, CNN's Jeff Zeleny reported that while Biden can receive the same level of briefings from Camp David, as he has been doing throughout the weekend, officials are aware of the optics of the President being out of town during this perilous moment."

"...optics..."  That's it.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> I just copied this from CNN --
> 
> "One option under discussion is to have Biden return to the White House, though the official cautioned that they had not completely ruled out making the remarks from Camp David.
> 
> ...


Yeah bad optics, no answer to questions that even msnbc and cnn are being critical of. But the optics and dodging of answers are just the cherry on the shit sundae.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah bad optics, no answer to questions that even msnbc and cnn are being critical of. But the optics and dodging of answers are just the cherry on the shit sundae.


Here is more on t's responsibility for this mess --









						Trump claims Afghanistan withdrawal would have been 'much more successful' if he were president. Would it?
					

Experts dispute Donald Trump's assertion that things would have turned out differently in Afghanistan if he were still in charge.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Here is more on t's responsibility for this mess --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool.  Doesn’t spare biden from his responsibility for the debacle particularly after going on record that it probably wouldn’t happen.  And for both of them….that’s a $770 million embassy.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> *I can see why you don't do much political posting here.  You're really bad at it.*


I know you never voted for a someone with an (R) next to their name.  You seem like a true leftist warlord type.  I will say you have been true to your beliefs and for that I will give you respect.  Grace and many others never liked t and called him Orange Man and rude.  I toned him out until he said he was going to run.  I laughed it off.  I thought Jeb would lose to HRC.  Imagine if HRC would have won?  Anyway, I got into this when far left communist from FB went off on the Ted Cruz fans.  It was a war on FB and red lines were drawn against childhood pals.  I see now what I didnt see before.  9/11 was not what we all thought.  Were you for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan Espola?  Stop ignoring me bro.  I've have been true to myself.  I love God and believe love & light will be the norm on the earth someday soon.  I think T was called by the light to lead take on the evil human traffickers and cheaters and liars.  Bad dudes Espola.  Let's see what happens the next few days.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> Here is more on t's responsibility for this mess --
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think this guy is in charge of things.  Joe is sleeping and taking a nap.  Dude hands over weapons and equipment and takes off and now wants our men and woman to turn aorund is insane.  God please help us.  This place is a mess.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Cool.  Doesn’t spare biden from his responsibility for the debacle particularly after going on record that it probably wouldn’t happen.  And for both of them….that’s a $770 million embassy.


T says he would have done it better.  Give us some examples of what he could have done.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> T says he would have done it better.  Give us some examples of what he could have done.


Not gonna defend trump. He woulda sucked too. The fact Biden sucks as much as trump woulda is quite an accomplishment.


----------



## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Not gonna defend trump. He woulda sucked too.


So what is your point with the "if t had done this..." crap?


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> So what is your point with the "if t had done this..." crap?


Trumpy sucks.  Biden sucks too but it happened in Biden’s watch. Biden is ultimately the most responsible.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> So what is your point with the "if t had done this..." crap?


Ya Grace.  Espola is 100% right to ask this question.  I have to ask.  Are you drinking booz this evening?  You seem off tonight, moo.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

crush said:


> Ya Grace.  Espola is 100% right to ask this question.  I have to ask.  Are you drinking booz this evening?  You seem off tonight, moo.


If trump had been at mar largo golfing and refusing to answer press questions or address the nation the press would be gunning for his head. But it’s interesting…even cnn and msnbc are being critical of Biden (if they are handling him gently instead of calling this a disaster) is


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trumpy sucks.  Biden sucks too but it happened in Biden’s watch. Biden is ultimately the most responsible.


T was 100% a no for war in the Middle East Grace.  He won in 2016 because he said he would pull our boys and girls home.  He lost 2020 election to Joe Biden and it was his job to handle the exit.  Joe messed up as President.  All his fault.  Stop blaming T Grace.


----------



## crush (Aug 15, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> If trump had been at mar largo golfing and refusing to answer press questions or address the nation the press would be gunning for his head. But it’s interesting…even cnn and msnbc are being critical of Biden (if they are handling him gently instead of calling this a disaster) is


I understand the hate people have for t.  He rubs people wrong on many levels.  However, I have to defend him on this 20 year war.  He was a big fat no Grace.  Who makes money on war Grace?  Leave t out of this.  T also thinks Joey should resign asap.  In fact, my most honest liberal pals are hoping t comes back.  All of this is crazy talk I tell them.  I do know one thing.  No one has been talking about the Baby Bat Dog Rat Spike.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 15, 2021)

crush said:


> I understand the hate people have for t.  He rubs people wrong on many levels.  However, I have to defend him on this 20 year war.  He was a big fat no Grace.  Who makes money on war Grace?  Leave t out of this.  T also thinks Joey should resign asap.  In fact, my most honest liberal pals are hoping t comes back.  All of this is crazy talk I tell them.  I do know one thing.  No one has been talking about the Baby Bat Dog Rat Spike.


I never thought we should be nation building in Afghanistan. I blame dubaya for that. But this debacle is no way to leave. Trumpy (and Obama before him) had 4 years to put in place an exit plan. Trumpy negotiated a bad deal, put in place a paper tiger and put in place the plan. He can’t escape responsibility for this. But Biden’s watch Biden’s orders so Biden bears the most responsibility.  Trump says he might have handled that differently…don’t know about that…but the fact that Biden did it as bad as trump could’ve is a horrifying accomplishment.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 15, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The tight time frame is driven by a May 1 deadline to withdraw the remaining U.S. troops from Afghanistan, as required under a deal with the Taliban that President Biden inherited from the Trump administration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A topic you know so little off other than what you read about.  You'll again will drown yourself in partisan politics and seize on the politics of the days.  It's unfortunate that you can't see that the sad series of incidents playing out before the world is an indictment on an entire class of people in this country.  A class of people that build their wealth on the backs of the few who do their bidding.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 15, 2021)

espola said:


> T says he would have done it better.  Give us some examples of what he could have done.


It's not surprising that many know so little.  During the negotiations with the Taliban, there were many times that US imposed red lines were crossed  that were punished tactically and quickly on the ground to bring the Taliban back to the negotiation table.  That was mostly due to leadership at the time on the ground in AF VS trump leadership.  Once that leadership was removed from AF,as part of the the current WH's plan for withdrawal, the Taliban no longer were admonished for violating local, provincial, and national stipulations.  Give them a inch, they'll take a province.  As we have just witnessed...an entire country in less than a week.  

Since JAN 2002, every star and tie to walk the halls of the DOD, State Department, and hallowed halls of the combined forces AF in Bagram, AF should be held accountable for the absolute failure in policy.  That includes each and every president that presided over our longest war.  Biden will go down as the worst of the bunch because of the HOW.  We put ourselves in a position of weakness since May.  And then we thought that announcing the date of withdrawal as 9-11 was somehow a symbolic win.  It's like an strategic communications intern was given the task of picking a date.  It was time to leave, no doubt.  We should have left in FEB 2002.  

The men and women who served know the truth.  They've known all along that the AF army couldn't stand alone.  It's not a secret, has never been a secret. You've been lied to by every administration, every politician, and every General that has ever stood at a podium to take questions about this fiasco.  

There is no way to spin this as orange man's fault.  Everyone is seeing right through that attempt, even the MSM that fawns over the current admin.  Unfortunately, next week, we will move on to some new shiny thing to froth at the mouth over.  And next week, those still on the ground will be trying to finish what shitheads started in the most honorable of ways..  It's unfortunate.


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## NorCalDad (Aug 15, 2021)

Left wing media isn't blind to any of this......









						Biden’s Betrayal of Afghans Will Live in Infamy
					

Our abandonment of the Afghans who helped us, counted on us, and staked their lives on us is a final, gratuitous shame that we could have avoided.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




Not sure what y'all are reading...


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## espola (Aug 15, 2021)

what-happened said:


> It's not surprising that many know so little.  During the negotiations with the Taliban, there were many times that US imposed red lines were crossed  that were punished tactically and quickly on the ground to bring the Taliban back to the negotiation table.  That was mostly due to leadership at the time on the ground in AF VS trump leadership.  Once that leadership was removed from AF,as part of the the current WH's plan for withdrawal, the Taliban no longer were admonished for violating local, provincial, and national stipulations.  Give them a inch, they'll take a province.  As we have just witnessed...an entire country in less than a week.
> 
> Since JAN 2002, every star and tie to walk the halls of the DOD, State Department, and hallowed halls of the combined forces AF in Bagram, AF should be held accountable for the absolute failure in policy.  That includes each and every president that presided over our longest war.  Biden will go down as the worst of the bunch because of the HOW.  We put ourselves in a position of weakness since May.  And then we thought that announcing the date of withdrawal as 9-11 was somehow a symbolic win.  It's like an strategic communications intern was given the task of picking a date.  It was time to leave, no doubt.  We should have left in FEB 2002.
> 
> ...


At the time US forces were ramping up in Afghanistan, it was claimed to be an effort to find the terrorists responsible for 9/11.  At the same time, it was apparent that Afghanistan was only their hideout, and that their political philosophy had a broader foundation - let's face it, there is no way a nation whose economy is based on 9th-century agriculture and drug smuggling could have pulled that off.  Follow the money and it leads back to Suadi Arabia and the Gulf States -- money we throw at them to soothe our hunger for oil.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Trumpy sucks.  Biden sucks too but it happened in Biden’s watch. Biden is ultimately the most responsible.


Who started the exit and made a deal with the Taliban? Not happy with things are going myself. We once again leave our allies exposed. Yet another seed for future terrorist excuses to hate the West and US.


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## tenacious (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> At the time US forces were ramping up in Afghanistan, it was claimed to be an effort to find the terrorists responsible for 9/11.  At the same time, it was apparent that Afghanistan was only their hideout, and that their political philosophy had a broader foundation - let's face it, there is no way a nation whose economy is based on 9th-century agriculture and drug smuggling could have pulled that off.  Follow the money and it leads back to Suadi Arabia and the Gulf States -- money we throw at them to soothe our hunger for oil.


Idk. Have the Saudi's been able to win that war with rebels in Yaman? I'd think the idea of a bunch of harden Afgani terrorists being freed up to go fight abroad would scare the heck out of them right about now.


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## tenacious (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I never thought we should be nation building in Afghanistan. I blame dubaya for that. But this debacle is no way to leave. Trumpy (and Obama before him) had 4 years to put in place an exit plan. Trumpy negotiated a bad deal, put in place a paper tiger and put in place the plan. He can’t escape responsibility for this. But Biden’s watch Biden’s orders so Biden bears the most responsibility.  Trump says he might have handled that differently…don’t know about that…but the fact that Biden did it as bad as trump could’ve is a horrifying accomplishment.


Everyone wanted to get us out of Afghanistan... the question was always how. If nothing else it would have been nice for Biden to negotiate a human rights accord protecting afghani women on the way out; or at least had a plan to help expatriate our allies before surrendering the country.


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## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Everyone wanted to get us out of Afghanistan... the question was always how. If nothing else it would have been nice for Biden to negotiate a human rights accord protecting afghani women on the way out; or at least had a plan to help expatriate our allies before surrendering the country.


Getting our friends in Afghanistan out early would seem like an obvious necessity.

Negotiating with the Taliban for anything, including a guarantee of rights for women, is a pointless gesture.  A better idea would have been to round up a few thousand of their leaders and then give the puppet government we put in place the key to the prison.

Oh...wait...


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## tenacious (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Getting our friends in Afghanistan out early would seem like an obvious necessity.
> 
> Negotiating with the Taliban for anything, including a guarantee of rights for women, is a pointless gesture.  A better idea would have been to round up a few thousand of their leaders and then give the puppet government we put in place the key to the prison.
> 
> Oh...wait...


Well... that what was tried.  So fair point.
Another fair point, even Trump was smart enough to not pick up and run in the middle of the night.


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## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> It's not surprising that many know so little.  During the negotiations with the Taliban, there were many times that US imposed red lines were crossed  that were punished tactically and quickly on the ground to bring the Taliban back to the negotiation table.  That was mostly due to leadership at the time on the ground in AF VS trump leadership.  Once that leadership was removed from AF,as part of the the current WH's plan for withdrawal, the Taliban no longer were admonished for violating local, provincial, and national stipulations.  Give them a inch, they'll take a province.  As we have just witnessed...an entire country in less than a week.
> 
> Since JAN 2002, every star and tie to walk the halls of the DOD, State Department, and hallowed halls of the combined forces AF in Bagram, AF should be held accountable for the absolute failure in policy.  That includes each and every president that presided over our longest war.  Biden will go down as the worst of the bunch because of the HOW.  We put ourselves in a position of weakness since May.  And then we thought that announcing the date of withdrawal as 9-11 was somehow a symbolic win.  It's like an strategic communications intern was given the task of picking a date.  It was time to leave, no doubt.  We should have left in FEB 2002.
> 
> ...


Unless the next shiny thing is another disaster, im not sure we move onto the next thing.  Biden has been trending downward for things within and without his control: the covid resurgence and npi backtrack (which like trump before him is largely not in his control), inflation, the border, the condition of the cities, the fight over crt/diversity (don’t care what you call it).  It seems like this is the bottom dropping out when even the msm that’s been shielding you turns critical.  I don’t think he drops to a 30s approval rating (the parties have become too immune to the stupid stuff their leadership does) but we might see trumpian level approval numbers from here


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## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Everyone wanted to get us out of Afghanistan... the question was always how. If nothing else it would have been nice for Biden to negotiate a human rights accord protecting afghani women on the way out; or at least had a plan to help expatriate our allies before surrendering the country.


Bush did not want to get us out of Afghanistan (at least not initially). He wanted to nation build.  If I were to rank blame for what happened among the presidents (though they all share responsibility): Biden (for how it was done) bush (for starting it) trump Obama.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

ALL  the world leaders are blaming Biden 100%.  T ran in 2016 to get everyone out.  Not easy to do.  The left owns this and they need to fix this.  Going on vacation and not talking to the folks is scary stuff.  I know what the truth is but none of you are ready.  Keep fighting each other and blaming others for all your problems.  WTF folks.


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## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

One note about the photo of Biden with his advisors. It shows a 3 hour time difference between London and Moscow. There is currently a 2 hour time difference. Either camp David doesnt adjust its clock or the White House put out a stock photo (in which case what exactly is going on with the president right now).


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

I have a very reliable source that said JB was instructed by the ____________________ government to hand over the poppy business.  Yes, the same country that sent us a Bat virus, mixed with Human, Dog and Rat Tissue.  This country tells JB what to do and he obeys, just like so many of you sheep, baaaaaaaahahaaaaaa!  No more jab sounds about right about now.  Please everyone, be careful what you inject in your arm.  I know what the last 20 years was all about really and when some of you get your head out of sand, I'll fill you in little Einsteins.  Some you "smart" educated folk are dumb as an ox but you think your smart, which makes me laugh now in my brain.  I used to take all this personal but after the last 18 months, I have empathy for all of you.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> One note about the photo of Biden with his advisors. It shows a 3 hour time difference between London and Moscow. There is currently a 2 hour time difference. Either camp David doesnt adjust its clock or the White House put out a stock photo (in which case what exactly is going on with the president right now).


Lying to buy time Grace.  Get ready, I warned you all.


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## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Bush did not want to get us out of Afghanistan (at least not initially). He wanted to nation build.  If I were to rank blame for what happened among the presidents (though they all share responsibility): Biden (for how it was done) bush (for starting it) trump Obama.


Back when this crap started, so far back that I can't find it, so far back that it was before this forum existed, I wrote up a compact list of all the empires that thought they could conquer Afghanistan, starting with Alexander of Macedonia.  One point I remember is when we funded the Taliban to make things difficult for the Russians back in the '80s.  Yes, the same Taliban.  I think 60 Minutes filmed a ride-along with Taliban sniping at Russian tanks and helicopters with US-supplied weapons.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Back when this crap started, so far back that I can't find it, so far back that it was before this forum existed, I wrote up a compact list of all the empires that thought they could conquer Afghanistan, starting with Alexander of Macedonia.  One point I remember is when we funded the Taliban to make things difficult for the Russians back in the '80s.  Yes, the same Taliban.  I think 60 Minutes filmed a ride-along with Taliban sniping at Russian tanks and helicopters with US-supplied weapons.


I'm starting to wonder if the Taliban are just the locals trying to protect their country.  WTF is it that everyone wants over there Espola?  Honest Q here fellas and grace.  What could be so important?  I'm bascially being called the same thing the Taliban are being called, which terrorist.  I wont lie, I smoked some really good hash back in the day but that's it.  Here's a 100% true story.  When 9/11/01 hit is us all in the face and we lost all of our privacy, I was a sales manager for a yellow page company.  When W, both Dicks, poor old Colin ((he got played)) and all the Senators voted, "yes for death & destruction & war" I was for it.  I hate to admit this but I have to be honest.  My son was born in March 2001 and I was so for other parents who had ds and dd to send their loved ones to fight these terrorist that attacked our buildings.  Anyway, we send our troops and the war is on.  

My #1 gift was taking newbies out cold calling and to see if they can hang in the real world.  I got two reps straight out of training class the day we were bombing the hell out Kabul and take over airport.  I get a woman who just graduated from USC and I get this middle aged older guy named Ahmad Rashad.  I swear this is a true story.  I tell Ahmad I will take Susie out today and you tomorrow.  The girl was a complete know it all and I was told she was going to be #1 rep from a sale class of over 50 and a future boss lady.  The intel on Ahmad was he going to need help and probably won't make the cut.  Our turnover was very high in YP real world.  Getting told to F off all day is not easy on one's pride.  Anyway, I take know it all out on her first sales day and she quit before lunch.  She felt she knew it all and did not want me to talk, just stand next to her and she will close all the deals.  Let me just say she didnt take being told, "no thanks" all the time.  Last I heard she was selling drugs to doctors.

Now let's talk about Ahmad.  I get in the car with him on first day of war and I ask, "Ahmad, where are you from."  He says, "Afghanistan."  I wont bore you with all the cool stuff that happen and how he and I and my wife became very good friends.  He was #1 and became a boss man for the company.  God is good


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> At the time US forces were ramping up in Afghanistan, it was claimed to be an effort to find the terrorists responsible for 9/11.  At the same time, it was apparent that Afghanistan was only their hideout, and that their political philosophy had a broader foundation - let's face it, there is no way a nation whose economy is based on 9th-century agriculture and drug smuggling could have pulled that off.  Follow the money and it leads back to Suadi Arabia and the Gulf States -- money we throw at them to soothe our hunger for oil.


Certainly plenty of shade to be thrown at the Saudis.  They've played both sides of the tracks for some time and will likely continue to do so.  Our  relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf States is nuanced and complex - no way to cover that on a youth soccer forum.

Hideouts and safe havens are important places to deny. We can chew gum and walk at the same time, The horn of africa is a pretty good example.  Afghanistan was the right place and right time for intervention after 9-11.  Tangible bad guy(s), easy to find, easy to defeat..and should have been easy to get out.


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## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Certainly plenty of shade to be thrown at the Saudis.  They've played both sides of the tracks for some time and will likely continue to do so.  Our  relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf States is nuanced and complex - no way to cover that on a youth soccer forum.
> 
> Hideouts and safe havens are important places to deny. We can chew gum and walk at the same time, The horn of africa is a pretty good example.  Afghanistan was the right place and right time for intervention after 9-11.  Tangible bad guy(s), easy to find, easy to defeat..and should have been easy to get out.


Anyone critical of how the Taliban took over Afghanistan should take a careful look at the parallels in how the Saud family took over Arabia (which wasn't even a single country when they started).


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Anyone critical of how the Taliban took over Afghanistan should take a careful look at the parallels in how the Saud family took over Arabia (which wasn't even a single country when they started).


Very few here in the US actually  care how the Taliban take over.  They are going to be brutal.  They will likely continue their purge, roll back the few civil rights gains accomplished over the last 20 years, and rule with an iron fist.  Many will die, girls in the major cities will no longer go to school. They may have learned their lesson in testing US resolve for certain things and have certainly become more savvy in regards to international politics.

time will tell.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Certainly plenty of shade to be thrown at the Saudis.  They've played both sides of the tracks for some time and will likely continue to do so.  Our  relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf States is nuanced and complex - no way to cover that on a youth soccer forum.
> 
> Hideouts and safe havens are important places to deny. We can chew gum and walk at the same time, The horn of africa is a pretty good example.  Afghanistan was the right place and right time for intervention after 9-11.  Tangible bad guy(s), easy to find, easy to defeat..and should have been easy to get out.


Ya man, like that Atta fella.  Dude was flying big ass plane into steel so strong no way 747 even goes through it.  They found his passport in mint condition a few blocks down the street.  No way Jose. The window frames were made of very strong steel as well as the middle of the Twin Towers.  Those planes are basically made of tin foil and wood and  had no business going through like that.  Lord please help the world.  We need help.  Help!!!


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Back when this crap started, so far back that I can't find it, so far back that it was before this forum existed, I wrote up a compact list of all the empires that thought they could conquer Afghanistan, starting with Alexander of Macedonia.  One point I remember is when we funded the Taliban to make things difficult for the Russians back in the '80s.  Yes, the same Taliban.  I think 60 Minutes filmed a ride-along with Taliban sniping at Russian tanks and helicopters with US-supplied weapons.


We have backed the wrong people for decades. We suck.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)




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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

Jake is preaching it!!!


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

WTF!!!!


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

That was by far the worse speech ever.  God help us!!!


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Unless the next shiny thing is another disaster, im not sure we move onto the next thing.  Biden has been trending downward for things within and without his control: the covid resurgence and npi backtrack (which like trump before him is largely not in his control), inflation, the border, the condition of the cities, the fight over crt/diversity (don’t care what you call it).  It seems like this is the bottom dropping out when even the msm that’s been shielding you turns critical.  I don’t think he drops to a 30s approval rating (the parties have become too immune to the stupid stuff their leadership does) but we might see trumpian level approval numbers from here


Until sunday, no one cared about Afghanistan.  Biden may  drop in the polls.  Once the MSM stops being sanctimonious about something they haven't really cared about, they'll go about the task of polishing up the turd and pushing other agendas.  

If anything Biden should be given credit (maybe) for not listening to more lies from Generals, Diplomats, Defense Contractors, etc.  3 more months, 3 more years wouldn't have mattered.  The afghan Army is a fake army, built on fake payrolls and empty chairs.  They were never going to fight for anyone. You can't convince an army to fight for a nation that really doesn't exist.  

Who knows, maybe this is a more progressive Taliban, one that wants to be part of the world community.  One that understand that their hold on power is tenable at best if they decide to provide safe harbor to bad actors.  Next time we don't stay, we just fly over and leave.  We can do that at will, over and over again.


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## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Until sunday, no one cared about Afghanistan.  Biden may  drop in the polls.  Once the MSM stops being sanctimonious about something they haven't really cared about, they'll go about the task of polishing up the turd and pushing other agendas.
> 
> If anything Biden should be given credit (maybe) for not listening to more lies from Generals, Diplomats, Defense Contractors, etc.  3 more months, 3 more years wouldn't have mattered.  The afghan Army is a fake army, built on fake payrolls and empty chairs.  They were never going to fight for anyone. You can't convince an army to fight for a nation that really doesn't exist.
> 
> Who knows, maybe this is a more progressive Taliban, one that wants to be part of the world community.  One that understand that their hold on power is tenable at best if they decide to provide safe harbor to bad actors.  Next time we don't stay, we just fly over and leave.  We can do that at will, over and over again.


The public doesn’t care about Afghanistan.  The taliban could slaughter thousands and most people would yawn.  They do care about the United States looking ridiculous and the Biden presidency was sold on the basis that the grownups were back. That’s why this is an almost fatal wound to Biden.  The argument had been he is carter 2.0.  It would take something radical to turn that around at this point and he has just under a year to do it.  It’s also a final straw coming on a long list of issues (some within his control and many not)

note Reagan was able to turn around the recession and Beirut, but Biden is no Reagan and there’s the added problem that he is very obviously in decline.Impossible? No. Daunting? Yes.  Once an impression sticks it is very very hard to turn it around.


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> The public doesn’t care about Afghanistan.  The taliban could slaughter thousands and most people would yawn.  They do care about the United States looking ridiculous and the Biden presidency was sold on the basis that the grownups were back. That’s why this is an almost fatal wound to Biden.  The argument had been he is carter 2.0.  It would take something radical to turn that around at this point and he has just under a year to do it.  It’s also a final straw coming on a long list of issues (some within his control and many not)
> 
> note Reagan was able to turn around the recession and Beirut, but Biden is no Reagan and there’s the added problem that he is very obviously in decline.Impossible? No. Daunting? Yes.  Once an impression sticks it is very very hard to turn it around.


I'm no Joe Biden fan, to say the least.  In this case, he (or someone) decided to not listen to anymore of the BS coming from the Pentagon and others who've been getting rich off of this ill fated adventure.  It could be a fatal wound if the dems eat their own, which they could.  The writing has been on the fall for Afghanistan for some time.  

To be fair, I think trump would have had to navigate the same waters, the same optics, and similar scenarios.  There are tactical things that could have been done differently but the end result is the same.  The end state is to evacuate the embassy staff, make arrangements to evacuate contractors and other US citizens, and figure out how to get as many AFghans out as possible.  We are not going to get all of them out.  Next week no one will care about who didn't get out.  We'll be back to COVID theater and partisan frothing at the mouth.  So much easier for the MSM to do.  They are completely out of their element with this afghan scenario.  The people they have one to provide commentary are part of the reason why all of this is a disaster. It's a joke.


How did Reagan turn around Beirut?  We also left there with tails tucked between legs..unfortunately.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I'm no Joe Biden fan, to say the least.  In this case, he (or someone) decided to not listen to anymore of the BS coming from the Pentagon and others who've been getting rich off of this ill fated adventure.  It could be a fatal wound if the dems eat their own, which they could.  The writing has been on the fall for Afghanistan for some time.
> 
> To be fair, I think trump would have had to navigate the same waters, the same optics, and similar scenarios.  There are tactical things that could have been done differently but the end result is the same.  The end state is to evacuate the embassy staff, make arrangements to evacuate contractors and other US citizens, and figure out how to get as many AFghans out as possible.  We are not going to get all of them out.  Next week no one will care about who didn't get out.  We'll be back to COVID theater and partisan frothing at the mouth.  So much easier for the MSM to do.  They are completely out of their element with this afghan scenario.  The people they have one to provide commentary are part of the reason why all of this is a disaster. It's a joke.
> 
> ...


What I heard was a bunch off horse shit.  He's sending 7,000 troops back dude.  I would be pissed off if I were heading back to Kabul.  This makes zero sense.  If he actually pulled everyone out the right way, then everyone would be gone.  Instead you got people dropping out of the sky from planes because they would rather take the chance hitching a ride on the outside of a C-17 then get their heads chopped off by the new Religious Elders.  Woman are in a world of hurt & abuse again.  How freaking sad.  One big disaster this is.  I spoke to really good pal today who gave up 18 months of his life trying to fix things with the people and his heart is ripped to pieces after that speech.  This is horrible and no son or dd should have to go back to help in these conditions


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

crush said:


> What I heard was a bunch off horse shit.  He's sending 7,000 troops back dude.  I would be pissed off if I were heading back to Kabul.  This makes zero sense.  If he actually pulled everyone out the right way, then everyone would be gone.  Instead you got people dropping out of the sky from planes because they would rather take the chance hitching a ride on the outside of a C-17 then get their heads chopped off by the new Religious Elders.  Woman are in a world of hurt & abuse again.  How freaking sad.  One big disaster this is.  I spoke to really good pal today who gave up 18 months of his life trying to fix things with the people and his heart is ripped to pieces after that speech.  This is horrible and no son or dd should have to go back to help in these conditions


everyone who spent a day in Afghanistan is emotional.  There is no right way to do this.  We've been putting lipstick on this pig since 2002. The right thing is to leave now.  The afghans have had 10-15 years to figure it out, we've been there for 20. . Obviously no amount of training, funding, support helped them achieve anything.  Their government has been and will always be corrupt.  We've made them rich beyond belief.  Now they will seek asylum somewhere and live out the rest of their lives fully funded by your tax dollars.  It's certainly a sad state of affairs.  Doesn't change the fact that if it doesn't happen now, it's going to happen later.


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## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> How did Reagan turn around Beirut?  We also left there with tails tucked between legs..unfortunately.


That's just Grace being loyally non-political.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> everyone who spent a day in Afghanistan is emotional.  *There is no right way to do this.*  We've been putting lipstick on this pig since 2002. The right thing is to leave now.  The afghans have had 10-15 years to figure it out, we've been there for 20. . Obviously no amount of training, funding, support helped them achieve anything.  Their government has been and will always be corrupt.  We've made them rich beyond belief.  Now they will seek asylum somewhere and live out the rest of their lives fully funded by your tax dollars.  It's certainly a sad state of affairs.  Doesn't change the fact that if it doesn't happen now, it's going to happen later.


There was a better way that's for damn sure.  The right way was never to be there in the first place, right?


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)




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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

crush said:


> There was a better way that's for damn sure.  The right way was never to be there in the first place, right?


The right way was to  kill bin laden, inflict pain and suffering on the Taliban, then leave.  Nation building in this part of the world is for the hopeless romantics and dummies who don't get history. 

All we've done is line the pockets of the Taliban and Afghan Government with your tax dollars.


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

crush said:


> View attachment 11426


Not even the most that airframe can carry.  Squeeze a few more in there, plenty of room.


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## crush (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The right way was to  kill bin laden, inflict pain and suffering on the Taliban, then leave.  Nation building in this part of the world is for the hopeless romantics and dummies who don't get history.
> 
> All we've done is line the pockets of the Taliban and Afghan Government with your tax dollars.


Yes, way before 911 would have been nice if he truly was a bad guy.  Chasing him in the caves in Afghanistan seems stupid now.  The media has played us all so let's go with the wait and see and see how this all plays out.  Something seems off in my brain.


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## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

crush said:


> Yes, way before 911 would have been nice if he truly was a bad guy.  Chasing him in the caves in Afghanistan seems stupid now.  The media has played us all so let's go with the wait and see and see how this all plays out.  Something seems off in my brain.


Your brain is fine...it's the politicians that are off.


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## Hüsker Dü (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The right way was to  kill bin laden, inflict pain and suffering on the Taliban, then leave.  Nation building in this part of the world is for the hopeless romantics and dummies who don't get history.
> 
> All we've done is line the pockets of the Taliban and Afghan Government with your tax dollars.


No one leaves Afghanistan victorious. All they do is fight. They fight each other until outsiders try to come in them all the swords point outward. They are headed for civil war, yet again.


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one leaves Afghanistan victorious. All they do is fight. They fight each other until outsiders try to come in them all the swords point outward. They are headed for civil war, yet again.


What are your thoughts on China supposedly wanting to come in and set up? Would like to here perspective thoughts on this…


----------



## dad4 (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one leaves Afghanistan victorious. All they do is fight. They fight each other until outsiders try to come in them all the swords point outward. They are headed for civil war, yet again.


Persia, Macedonia, the Abbasid Empire, and Mongolia have all successfully invaded Afanistan.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I'm no Joe Biden fan, to say the least.  In this case, he (or someone) decided to not listen to anymore of the BS coming from the Pentagon and others who've been getting rich off of this ill fated adventure.  It could be a fatal wound if the dems eat their own, which they could.  The writing has been on the fall for Afghanistan for some time.
> 
> To be fair, I think trump would have had to navigate the same waters, the same optics, and similar scenarios.  There are tactical things that could have been done differently but the end result is the same.  The end state is to evacuate the embassy staff, make arrangements to evacuate contractors and other US citizens, and figure out how to get as many AFghans out as possible.  We are not going to get all of them out.  Next week no one will care about who didn't get out.  We'll be back to COVID theater and partisan frothing at the mouth.  So much easier for the MSM to do.  They are completely out of their element with this afghan scenario.  The people they have one to provide commentary are part of the reason why all of this is a disaster. It's a joke.
> 
> ...


Reagan turned around the fp misadventures.  The wins in the Cold War covered up missteps like Iran contra and Beirut. Biden would need something similarly big to turn around his fortunes.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> That's just Grace being loyally non-political.


And you being a reliable troll.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 16, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Persia, Macedonia, the Abbasid Empire, and Mongolia have all successfully invaded Afanistan.


Does BC count?


----------



## dad4 (Aug 16, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Does BC count?


If the terrain is impossible to conquer, why did it happen so many times?

Afghanistan wasn't especially hard to conquer until it found itself between two major powers and was able to play them off against each other.  (Russia/UK, then US/USSR, then Russia/US)

I suspect that advantage goes away if Russia decides that Western Xinjiang sounds nicer than Eastern Chechnya.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 16, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If the terrain is impossible to conquer, why did it happen so many times?
> 
> Afghanistan wasn't especially hard to conquer until it found itself between two major powers and was able to play them off against each other.  (Russia/UK, then US/USSR, then Russia/US)
> 
> I suspect that advantage goes away if Russia decides that Western Xinjiang sounds nicer than Eastern Chechnya.


So, no BC then.


----------



## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Persia, Macedonia, the Abbasid Empire, and Mongolia have all successfully invaded Afanistan.


Not for long -- the locals just waited them out.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If the terrain is impossible to conquer, why did it happen so many times?
> 
> Afghanistan wasn't especially hard to conquer until it found itself between two major powers and was able to play them off against each other.  (Russia/UK, then US/USSR, then Russia/US)
> 
> I suspect that advantage goes away if Russia decides that Western Xinjiang sounds nicer than Eastern Chechnya.


You are comparing apples to oranges...The conquering isn't the hard part.  It's being able to remain the conqueror that's the hard part. To understand the terrain in Afghanistan is to know it's the reason why afghans are nearly impossible to defeat.  They retreat to the terrain that makes it impossible to get to them.  The writing was on the wall the day we decided to build an all girls school in some god forsaken valley along the pak/afghan border.  They chuckled when beauty salons opened in Kabul and Kandahar. 

Western countries don't have the ganas to see these things through.  We are not the soviet union, seeding entire valleys with mines that looked like toys.  We are not built to fight long, ideological wars.  The Afghanis literally have nothing else to do.  They don't need progress, they don't need to evolve their society.  We never lost an engagement in the field, yet we lost the war.  Poetic to say the least and the only outcome possible.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No one leaves Afghanistan victorious. All they do is fight. They fight each other until outsiders try to come in them all the swords point outward. They are headed for civil war, yet again.


Possibly. But it's possible they don't sink back into civil war. What we did was weaken the northern alliance and bolstered the Taliban's legitimacy.   They've evolved and will be quietly supported by neighbors, especially by Pakistan.  After all, the Taliban are the love child of the CIA and ISI.  An acceptably stable Afghanistan is in the best interest of Pakistan.   The Taliban have evolved over the last 20 years.  They are no longer a rag tag group of knuckleheads who rose out of the ashes of the Afghan/Russian war.  They now have offices in Doha and new, young leaders in place who see the advantages of not being a country on the margins.  Hell, they are on twittter.


----------



## espola (Aug 16, 2021)

Just a note -- based on the record of 20 years of polls and surveys about our troops in Afghanistan -- Biden is the first President to follow the opinion of the majority of the US voters and actually bring the troops home.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 16, 2021)

espola said:


> Just a note -- based on the record of 20 years of polls and surveys about our troops in Afghanistan -- Biden is the first President to follow the opinion of the majority of the US voters and actually bring the troops home.


wasn't trump on the same path in Afghanistan? I will say this, the only reason this has been as "peaceful" as this has been is because of the ceasefire agreement last Apri/May.  The Taliban are going to sit idly by for the next days/few weeks (until 911) and watch this play out.  They won't control the population.  They'll continue to allow masses of people to flood the airfield.  It makes for great video/pics and provides the MSM great footage for experts to pontificate over.  If they truly wanted to disrupt the evacuation, they would park a dozer or two at the halfway point of the runway and deny the runway to US Aircraft.  The runway is just long enough to allow a C17 to take of and land. I suppose the other way to look at it is that we are in no mood to be messed with right now.  Something adverse happens, and the gloves come off.  We haven't fired a shot in anger yet.  9-11 is but a few short weeks away.  The Taliban for the strategic communications double U .  White house strategic communications intern for the L

Something about the americans have all the watches but the afghans have all the time.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 16, 2021)

I'm reading more and more posts like:









						Afghanistan Meant Nothing
					

A Veteran Reflects on 20 Wasted Years




					laurajedeed.medium.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 17, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Persia, Macedonia, the Abbasid Empire, and Mongolia have all successfully invaded Afanistan.


Where are they now?


----------



## crush (Aug 17, 2021)

Kabul Airport is up and running.  Flights to America?  I will not pass judgement on what I dont know.  Perception right now is impossible to see.  I hope were helping people who need our help.  No woman or girls on this flight.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 17, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> What are your thoughts on China supposedly wanting to come in and set up? Would like to here perspective thoughts on this…


China and Russia still are doing business there, embassy’s open.


----------



## watfly (Aug 17, 2021)

There is no way we were going to put a "bow" on our results in Afghanistan, but we didn't need to trample the box before we mailed it.


----------



## crush (Aug 17, 2021)

watfly said:


> There is no way we were going to put a "bow" on our results in Afghanistan, but we didn't need to trample the box before we mailed it.



This can never happen again.  I give these guys all a bow and I believe 100% of them should be taken care of forever.  What a bullshit lie to tell our young men & woman a lie so a few can make $$$$$.  War is money and no American family shall ever have to go through this again.  WTF is up with us?


----------



## crush (Aug 17, 2021)




----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm reading more and more posts like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Generally speaking, there are two camps within the veteran peer group.  Those that spent a significant portion of their time in Afghanistan training Afghani troops.  Many developed relationships and emotional ties.  There there are those who's experience will be different.  Their experience is watching Afghanis not show up at all during operations, turning and running during engagements, or turning their weapons on US or their afghani counterparts.  

Both camps are emotional and will reflect on what they did while in country and wonder why they were there.  Both camps will generally agree that staying or going back  would/will not solve anything.  It's up to the Afghans to figure it out.  The Taliban are the most passionate, motivated, and organized to run the country.  Doesn't bode well for many people.  All we have done is delayed the inevitable.  And we did a pretty good job at that.


----------



## dad4 (Aug 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Where are they now?


Mostly driven out by other invaders.  A couple fell to civil war or domestic uprisings along language/ethnic lines.

Same as any other place, when you think about it.


----------



## crush (Aug 17, 2021)

WTF Up!!!!  Tell these guys how you all feel today about politics & war.  This has to stop folks.  The one's at the very very top dont give a shit about you or me.  They want death & destruction.  I need to go pray and pray some more and just pray.  I woke up sad today for all the people I know that sacrificed their lives and body parts to fight this bullshit.  I'm shocked at how people are just numb to this.  Many of us remember 9/11, right?  20 years later and were in big trouble unless we all come together and make the darkness disappear.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> China and Russia still are doing business there, embassy’s open.


Yes. And with good reason. I am referring to BRI or CPEC plans being laid out by China and Pakistan which can now include Afghanistan. And what else it will all mean.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

watfly said:


> There is no way we were going to put a "bow" on our results in Afghanistan, but we didn't need to trample the box before we mailed it.


I guess I look at it differently.  There was never going to be an orderly withdrawal, it's not the way country works.  The agreements in place (and that remain in place until end of month) are going to avoid major bloodshed.  The Taliban isn't generally going to interfere.  They also aren't going to stop people from running onto the airfield.  We aren't going to shoot anyone who runs onto the airfield and plane hops.  We may scare them with helicopters, we may yell at them...but we aren't going to do much else.  Hopefully not many more fall out of the wheel wells of C17s. 

All bets are off after end of the month.  That's when will be given a glimpse behind the curtain.


----------



## espola (Aug 17, 2021)

And life goes on --  my nephew, who spent his last tour overseas in the Army as a Captain in the Medical Service Corps in charge of a group of medics who accompanied troops into combat in Afghanistan, is seeking another career.









						Cove council candidate holding meet and greet on Saturday
					

Shawn Alzona, a Copperas Cove City Council candidate, will host a meet and greet from 3 to 4 p.m. Saturday in Copperas Cove.




					kdhnews.com
				




Since he was not an actual medical officer himself, there was no constraint about him carrying arms into the field.  His duties included providing armed security for the doctors, nurses, and enlisted medics as they performed their tasks.  I fear he might find City Council combat a little boring.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges...The conquering isn't the hard part.  It's being able to remain the conqueror that's the hard part. To understand the terrain in Afghanistan is to know it's the reason why afghans are nearly impossible to defeat.  They retreat to the terrain that makes it impossible to get to them.  The writing was on the wall the day we decided to build an all girls school in some god forsaken valley along the pak/afghan border.  They chuckled when beauty salons opened in Kabul and Kandahar.
> 
> Western countries don't have the ganas to see these things through.  We are not the soviet union, seeding entire valleys with mines that looked like toys.  We are not built to fight long, ideological wars.  The Afghanis literally have nothing else to do.  They don't need progress, they don't need to evolve their society.  We never lost an engagement in the field, yet we lost the war.  Poetic to say the least and the only outcome possible.


They are also a tribal society. Loyalty lies to local leaders rather than a centralized form of government. That alone makes things shall we say rather difficult.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 17, 2021)

A buddy of mine sums up the current state of the US perfectly:

My current thoughts:

Trump is a stooge and completely unfit to run this country, hopefully he’ll go away. Stop waving flags with his name on it, it’s weird. I think most would agree with that. 
Biden/Harris have been incompetent and are incapable of running this country. Everything they have done so far is complete . Biden can’t even think and talk, don’t tell me it’s a stutter, it’s his feeble mind, he’s incapable. Harris got less than 1% of her parties backing when she wanted to be president and it’s obvious why. Third in command is 131 year old Pelosi. Our administration is weak and embarrassing and the whole world knows it.

Meanwhile here’s the situation:
Border wide open during pandemic.
Inflation out of control.
Vax or mask, no vax and mask, no both and show vaccine card as proof.
CDC caught in multiple lies but we’re supposed to trust them. 
Nobody wants to work, businesses struggling. 
China and Russia taking control of everything.
Taliban back in control in Afghanistan.
Pipelines shut down, oil prices way up.
Religion frowned upon.
Violence rampant in big cities. 
Speak against the far left, get labeled and/or silenced.
Etc, etc, etc.

The media and most Americans seem to be giving this administration a pass because “at least it’s not Trump”. I’m glad Trump is gone and hope he stays away but something has to change in this country before it’s too late. 330 million Americans and we had to choose between Trump and Biden/Harris?!?!?! That’s like picking which burning house to run into, the house is still going to burn down. The last 2 elections have crippled us.

I don’t know where good leadership will come from but we need to start praying that it comes soon. Most of us aren’t far left like the new Dems and most of us don’t back Trump….but we’re stuck in the middle and watching our country fall apart. I’m not going to stay quiet anymore and I think more people need to stand up for America before it’s too late. 

Please pray for America.

#godblessamerica


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

Interesting read. 









						Afghanistan: We Never Learn
					

As the Taliban waltzes into Kabul, the look of surprise on the faces of top officials should frighten us most of all




					taibbi.substack.com


----------



## watfly (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I guess I look at it differently.  There was never going to be an orderly withdrawal, it's not the way country works.  The agreements in place (and that remain in place until end of month) are going to avoid major bloodshed.  The Taliban isn't generally going to interfere.  They also aren't going to stop people from running onto the airfield.  We aren't going to shoot anyone who runs onto the airfield and plane hops.  We may scare them with helicopters, we may yell at them...but we aren't going to do much else.  Hopefully not many more fall out of the wheel wells of C17s.
> 
> All bets are off after end of the month.  That's when will be given a glimpse behind the curtain.


No withdrawal was going to be perfect (withdrawing period is not a good look, but had to be done at some point), but I believe it could have been done in a more orderly fashion.  You don't believe that? You don't think a complete cluster F could have been avoided?  Maybe the difference between a minor cluster F and a complete cluster F is not all that different.

Afghanistan was generally a failure, but I take some solace in the fact that we were able to allow women to be educated for 20 years.  I'm being a bit facetious, but may be next time we should arm the Afghan women instead of the male Afghan army.


----------



## watfly (Aug 17, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> A biddy of mine sums up the current state of the US perfectly:
> 
> My current thoughts:
> 
> ...


The far right and most of the left's continued fascination with Trump is mind boggling to me.  In the middle of the Afghanistan exit crisis, Maddow had an entire show devoted to Trump's failed attempt to influence the Georgia election.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 17, 2021)

watfly said:


> The far right and most of the left's continued fascination with Trump is mind boggling to me.  In the middle of the Afghanistan exit crisis, Maddow had an entire show devoted to Trump's failed attempt to influence the Georgia election.


Divert….deflect…..distract…..the MSM way!


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

Kicker4Life said:


> Border wide open during pandemic.
> Inflation out of control.











						Suspected terrorists crossing border 'at a level we have never seen before,' outgoing Border Patrol chief says
					

Unprecedented numbers of known or suspected terrorists have crossed the southern border in recent months, the outgoing Border Patrol chief said.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

Interesting read about how the press frames things. Compare and contrast.









						The Media Can't Hide From Their Terrible Afghanistan Reporting
					

Biden's failure to fulfill corporate media's promises of his competence has made them look deeply foolish, as he displays the folly they predicted of Trump.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

watfly said:


> No withdrawal was going to be perfect (withdrawing period is not a good look, but had to be done at some point), but I believe it could have been done in a more orderly fashion.  You don't believe that? You don't think a complete cluster F could have been avoided?  Maybe the difference between a minor cluster F and a complete cluster F is not all that different.
> 
> Afghanistan was generally a failure, but I take some solace in the fact that we were able to allow women to be educated for 20 years.  I'm being a bit facetious, but may be next time we should arm the Afghan women instead of the male Afghan army.


I get what you are saying and don't disagree in general.  These operations are never orderly and NEOs (Non combatant evacuations) are rarely ever rehearsed (except in South Korea).  Videos, pics, and journalist are always going to be sensational.  The evacuation of the Embassy personnel  went as planned.  An evacuation of an embassy isn't ever a routine thing. The pictures of helicopters landing in the embassy are overblown, they've been doing that for quite some time.  Easier to fly 3 miles than to drive 3 miles.  Stuff changes on the ground all the time.  If for the now, the casualties are some folks falling out of the airplane, then so be it.  Sounds callous but the alternative scenario is much worse.  The time to leave had passed

It's these less important details that the ruling class wants the american public and MSM to focus on.  Yes, the evacuation didn't go as smooth as those of us would like.  The bigger question is why the 15 years or so worth of  lies on the capacity of the Afghan Army and their government.  Many who served there have known for some time they Afghan Army would never stand on their own two feet.  Who is going to be held accountable?  Will it be the Generals serving now, the retired Generals serving now on Defense Contractor boards?  Retired Generals serving on think tanks.  How about top state department officals?  Top Intel community  officials.  Never mind 4 different White Houses.  The funny thing about intel analysis is there is always at least 2 assessments given.  Did the guy/gal who said the afghan government and military would fold in 3 days get sent to the corner and the report put in the trash.  Highly likely this was the case.  People knew.  Those types of reports don't translate to contractor dollars.  The military industrial complex is a hungry beast...needs to be fed.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Interesting read about how the press frames things. Compare and contrast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The media can't even decide which side to land on.  There has been such little reporting out of Afghanistan over the years that few understand the complexity and the nuance involved.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The media can't even decide which side to land on.  There has been such little reporting out of Afghanistan over the years that few understand the complexity and the nuance involved.


Nuance and the press? Those 2 words rarely go together.


----------



## Bruddah IZ (Aug 17, 2021)

… is from page 102 of Thomas Sowell’s 1993 collection, _Is Reality Optional?_:

_






*What they [the media and politicians] want to hear are things that make for excitement, crusades, and a chance to be on the side of the angels.* They want statistics or anything else that blames our whole way of life for creating catastrophic dangers that only the wise and noble few can save us from.

Whether it is “the greenhouse effect,” chemical residues from pesticides, the dangers of nuclear radiation, or a thousand other things, the bottom line is the same: The morally anointed are to stand on Olympus and order the rest of us around – for our own good.
Statistics that ruin this scenario are rarely mentioned._


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The media can't even decide which side to land on.  There has been such little reporting out of Afghanistan over the years that few understand the complexity and the nuance involved.


Don’t fool yourself, there are plenty of very savvy journalist out there that have lived and immersed themselves in the region. They know exactly what is at stake and what has been lost. The boob tube even airs a few.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

Here are some of the "experts" opinions/ideas about Afghanistan.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427430917941891073


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Don’t fool yourself, there are plenty of very savvy journalist out there that have lived and immersed themselves in the region. They know exactly what is at stake and what has been lost. The boob tube even airs a few.


You give them too much credit...Little immersion has occurred over the last 15 years in afghanistan.  It's a hard place to report from, for many reasons.  There are a few journalist (count them in one hand) who can be considered experts, but they are few and far between. Afghanistan is a backwater story that has all of a sudden taken center stage.  The only time it gets any attention is when sides want to play the blame game.  This time around, the circumstances have them all confused and they don't know who they should blame.  Hint to all partisan folks, everyone is to blame.  Not a brave soul to be found in the MSM.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Here are some of the "experts" opinions/ideas about Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427430917941891073


Amateur hour continues.  We've been rebuilding their country for over a decade.  They keep blowing up schools and hospitals built by the american tax payer..  Maybe they need to tap into their narco money for infrastructure $$$.  They can show us a thing or two about surplus budgets and shovel ready jobs..


----------



## watfly (Aug 17, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Here are some of the "experts" opinions/ideas about Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427430917941891073


That has to be satire.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 17, 2021)

Ugh...









						Horrifying tales of ‘forced marriages’ emerge in Taliban-held areas
					

A senior Taliban figure reportedly ordered that all women over the age of 15 and widows younger than 40 should be married to the insurgent fighters.




					nypost.com


----------



## crush (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ugh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow.  This is super sad and makes me feel sick.


----------



## espola (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ugh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are my wife
Good-bye city life --


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)




----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ugh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Horrifying indeed but sensationalism to say the least.  This is low hanging fruit for the NY Post...Makes them feel better I suppose.  Or maybe they just  figured out this has been happening in this part of the world for hundreds of years.  Afghanis (to include the Taliban) have been doing this since we've been in country.  It's not like we or the Afghan government ever banned this.  The central government has had little to no influence outside of their urban bubble.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 11436


Now this is proper reporting.  Something that everyone at CNN can get behind.


----------



## espola (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Now this is proper reporting.  Something that everyone at CNN can get behind.


Babylon Bee is a parody/comedy site.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Horrifying indeed but sensationalism to say the least.  This is low hanging fruit for the NY Post...Makes them feel better I suppose.  Or maybe they just  figured out this has been happening in this part of the world for hundreds of years.  Afghanis (to include the Taliban) have been doing this since we've been in country.  It's not like we or the Afghan government ever banned this.  The central government has had little to no influence outside of their urban bubble.


Sensationalism? The folks we left behind are having Islamic militants sell-off their daughters to fighters. This is well documented behavior by militants throughout the middle east and, so that this is happening should be a surprise to absolutely no one given Biden's total loss of the situation. Nor is it something we should avoid talking about I would say... given that this is the fate we left our allies to.

Or is this one of those Simone Briles type events, where all good American's are suppose to fall in line and say losing is better than winning? Up is really down. Good grief, what a world...


----------



## tenacious (Aug 17, 2021)

Lol... we live in an America where people get huffy about events that took place 100 years ago, but we're not suppose to talk about what's actually happening to these people right here and now, and our role in it? Let me say it again. GOOD GRIEF.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Sensationalism? The folks we left behind are having Islamic militants sell-off their daughters to fighters. This is well documented behavior by militants throughout the middle east and, so that this is happening should be a surprise to absolutely no one given Biden's total loss of the situation.
> 
> Or is this one of those Simone Briles type events, where all good American's are suppose to fall in line and say losing is better than winning? Up is really down. Good grief, what a world...


NY post is getting you to emotionally respond to a type of incident that has been occurring there under our watch (and before).  Where was their outrage in 2004? 2012? 2018?  They've been feeling left out and want to contribute to a narrative.

Good Americans should hold people accountable for their actions.  There is a reason why there is freedom of the press.  The press is supposed to be a tool that holds government accountable.  Both have failed and Good Americans have been left holding the bag - just ask every soldier, airman, sailor, and marine who've set foot in that shithole of a country.  They sold little girls and they are going to sell off little girls - it's how they roll.  It's terrible, the world is a terrible place.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> NY post is getting you to emotionally respond to a type of incident that has been occurring there under our watch (and before).  Where was their outrage in 2004? 2012? 2018?  They've been feeling left out and want to contribute to a narrative.
> 
> Good Americans should hold people accountable for their actions.  There is a reason why there is freedom of the press.  The press is supposed to be a tool that holds government accountable.  Both have failed and Good Americans have been left holding the bag - just ask every soldier, airman, sailor, and marine who've set foot in that shithole of a country.  They sold little girls and they are going to sell off little girls - it's how they roll.  It's terrible, the world is a terrible place.


Great point. I'm sure this is a NY Post hit piece and there won't be anymore stories like this in respectable newspapers anytime soon.  

But let's say you're wrong, and stories that the Taliban are horrible people who do horrible things turns out to be true? I'll be interested to get your take on sensationalism then. Let's hope and pray for those Afghani women... that you're not the type who is too stubborn to admit they are wrong, even when it hurts (other people).


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Lol... we live in an America where people get huffy about events that took place 100 years ago, but we're not suppose to talk about what's actually happening to these people right here and now, and our role in it? Let me say it again. GOOD GRIEF.


What should we do about it?  20 years in Afghanistan and not one aspect of their culture has fundamentally changed.  And it's not from a lack of trying.  We've flooded them with western ideals.  In a span of seven days, beauty shops have closed, burqas are back in style, and the education opportunities for girls have basically disappeared.  Obviously those ideals weren't enough to galvanize the men of afghanistan to stand up on their own two legs to defend their daughters, sisters, and wives.  Feel sorry for those that really wanted change (there are a few).. The rest will meekly shrink back into the status quo.  We should not spend another dime or drop of American blood there or any part of the world that isn't willing to stand on their own two feet and shoulder the burden of helping their own country.  We've basically created corrupt multi millionaires and helped create one of the most profitable narco states the world has ever seen.  It will drive you crazy if you stop to think about it.  

Besides, I rarely see people lined up at the recruiters office signing up for deployment to Afghanistan...at least not since Sep 2001.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Great point. I'm sure this is a NY Post hit piece and there won't be anymore stories like this in respectable newspapers anytime soon.
> 
> But let's say you're wrong, and stories that the Taliban are horrible people who do horrible things turns out to be true? I'll be interested to get your take on sensationalism then. Let's hope and pray for those Afghani women... that you're not the type who is too stubborn to admit they are wrong, even when it hurts (other people).


Maybe that's the wrong word to use for describing what's happening in Afghanistan.  I apologize if the impression you got was that I was downplaying the reporting.  They are telling the truth.  It's the timing that is dishonest.  It's an obvious hit piece.  They don't really care about what's happening in Afghanistan.  The stories are no doubt true.  And they don't just include the Taliban.  The Northen Alliance, our original allies, did the same thing, are doing the same thing.  What I mean by sensationalism is the obvious effort by the NY Post (and others) to capitalize on the plight of the Afghani people.  It's their job to stir the pot.


----------



## watfly (Aug 17, 2021)

espola said:


> Babylon Bee is a parody/comedy site.


That's the crazy world we live in where satire is sometimes closer to the truth than alleged legitimate sources of news.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> What should we do about it?  20 years in Afghanistan and not one aspect of their culture has fundamentally changed.  And it's not from a lack of trying.  We've flooded them with western ideals.  In a span of seven days, beauty shops have closed, burqas are back in style, and the education opportunities for girls have basically disappeared.  Obviously those ideals weren't enough to galvanize the men of afghanistan to stand up on their own two legs to defend their daughters, sisters, and wives.  Feel sorry for those that really wanted change (there are a few).. The rest will meekly shrink back into the status quo.  We should not spend another dime or drop of American blood there or any part of the world that isn't willing to stand on their own two feet and shoulder the burden of helping their own country.  We've basically created corrupt multi millionaires and helped create one of the most profitable narco states the world has ever seen.  It will drive you crazy if you stop to think about it.
> 
> Besides, I rarely see people lined up at the recruiters office signing up for deployment to Afghanistan...at least not since Sep 2001.


Here's another one for you.  Your neighbor owes your $500 and you hear someone attacking his daughter outside in the ally at night? Is your point that because he's owes you money that it frees you from going out and helping the poor kid? I mean I'm trying to get my head around your argument, but it strikes me as a bit silly.

That said spin it however you please. Talk about prayers. Talk about right and wrong. My two cents? To leave those people, in that position is inexcusable. I might not be able to fix slavery (or even be willing to pay reparations). But I've learned enough over the last few years to know there are times when you have to say this is inexcusable that we as a nation let this happen and it's plum wrong to be looking away.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Here's another one for you.  Your neighbor owes your $500 and you hear someone attacking his daughter outside in the ally at night? Is your point that because he's owes you money that it frees you from going out and helping the poor kid? I mean I'm trying to get my head around your argument, but it strikes me as a bit silly.
> 
> That said spin it however you please. Talk about prayers. Talk about right and wrong. My two cents? To leave those people, in that position is inexcusable. I might not be able to fix slavery (or even be willing to pay reparations). But I've learned enough over the last few years to know there are times when you have to say this is inexcusable that we as a nation let this happen and it's plum wrong to be looking away.


You are comparing our society to theirs.  I'm not spinning anything.  When was the last time you set foot in that part of the world? We've been there for 20 years, not one thing has changed. Kabul is not San Jose.  The Korengal Valley is not Sonoma.

It's a terribly sad situation in Afghanistan.  It's not a situation that we can fix.  What's inexcusable is that we've lost treasure there because of the hubris and greed of this nation's leadership and agencies.  Your world view would have us invade India, Pakistan, etc.  Doesn't work that way.  

Those "people" have been propped up for 20 years.  We've offered asylum to thousands over the years and will continue to do so until we completely withdraw.  We owe them nothing, we've given plenty.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

espola said:


> Babylon Bee is a parody/comedy site.


Really? Nuh uh..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 17, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> What are your thoughts on China supposedly wanting to come in and set up? Would like to here perspective thoughts on this…


The Chinese kill Uyghurs don’t they?


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Chinese kill Uyghurs don’t they?


I thought they sent them to re-education camps to teach them the wise ways of communist China.  Maybe they can take the same approach in Afghanistan ,make the Taliban see the light.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 17, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The Chinese kill Uyghurs don’t they?


Yes, why?


----------



## what-happened (Aug 17, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Yes, why?


1. Prevent terrorism, root out islamic extremism?
2. The chinese  like to promote Han nationlism?

I guess you can pick one or both..


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 17, 2021)

I asked because it


what-happened said:


> 1. Prevent terrorism, root out islamic extremism?
> 2. The chinese  like to promote Han nationlism?
> 
> I guess you can pick one or both..


I asked because it’s not related to my previous question on post 2128.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

espola said:


> Babylon Bee is a parody/comedy site.


You are slow to the game.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 17, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I thought they sent them to re-education camps to teach them the wise ways of communist China.  Maybe they can take the same approach in Afghanistan ,make the Taliban see the light.


Well that and they want to teach them in the ways of factory work once they have been indoctrinated/beaten down. After all the world needs more iphones and people to make them.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 17, 2021)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/p6g47t


----------



## espola (Aug 18, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 18, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I asked because it
> 
> I asked because it’s not related to my previous question on post 2128.


No? Huh, makes perfect sense to me. Killing Muslims shouldn’t go down very well with Islamic extremists wouldn’t you say? But of course trump conservatives don’t concern themselves with human rights issues so you may not know about what’s happening in the real world.








						Who are the Uyghurs and why is China being accused of genocide?
					

China has been accused by the US of genocide and crimes against humanity against the Muslim minority group.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> *conservatives don’t concern themselves with human rights*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First off,* open your eyes* blind man.  If you ((Husker Du)) can't start with protecting the rights of unborn babies, you have nothing to say about conservatives and what concerns they have for others.  Buzz off dude.  Seriously, you and Espola look stupid!!!  Trump's first speech as President was the war on Human Trafficking.  He said and I quote,* "I want to make clear today that my administration will focus on ending the absolutely horrific practice of human trafficking."*  The key word is "ending."  All the rats like you have been running scared ever sense.  Guess what Husker, that's what he and the Military have been doing this whole time.   Watch this again and listen to his words bro.  It's too hard for the average person to handle.  Most dads dont want to look and look to fix this probelm in our country and around the world.  Cheaters who lie and rape are bad. Where are all the actors?  Where is Tom?  Oh boy, were all in for a huge awakening.  God help us!!!









						Open your eyes - 6m film - please watch and share to loved ones
					

I cried..... Did you?  https://t.me/disclosurehub/157




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

News from Mr. Wiki that will drip, drip, drip as long as they have leaks........

From Todd with love to: Donna and Tony
"I will be meeting with* Soros *later this week for some "pre-programing" of the machines.  More to come.  Buy yeah, these machines will be humming in November....."


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I asked because it
> 
> I asked because it’s not related to my previous question on post 2128.


Along with promoting han nationalism, the chinese will not tolerate instability.  They also know that they are free to do what they want.  who is going to tell them to stop?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 18, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Along with promoting han nationalism, the chinese will not tolerate instability.  They also know that they are free to do what they want.  who is going to tell them to stop?


The question involved China’s future involvement in a Islamic extremist, taliban lead Afghanistan. The question also involved a future Russian presence there. In a place lead by people we supplied and financed in a war against a failed Russian invasion.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

Ok smart ones:  Q for the day:  What does the word, "Taliban" mean, literally?  Not what George Bush, HRC or BO told us all it meant.  Dig deep *students* and let me know what you learn what the actual word actually means, like literally.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The question involved China’s future involvement in a Islamic extremist, taliban lead Afghanistan. The question also involved a future Russian presence there. In a place lead by people we supplied and financed in a war against a failed Russian invasion.
> 
> The enemy of my enemy is my friend?


I don't have a crystal ball.  The chinese don't have the capacity to "occupy" Afghanistan.  They have the capacity and the will to economically influence afghanistan.  If there is something to be extracted out of afghanistan, they will establish a footprint, pay $$$$ for protection, and reap the benefits of cheap local labor.  Much like they've done in Southern Iraq.  But remember, we invaded Iraq for the oil...or was it to secure the oil fields for the chinese..

The russians will not set foot in Afghanistan again in any large numbers.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

crush said:


> Ok smart ones:  Q for the day:  What does the word, "Taliban" mean, literally?  Not what George Bush, HRC or BO told us all it meant.  Dig deep *students* and let me know what you learn what the actual word actually means, like literally.


Taliban= assholes.


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Taliban= assholes.


No sir.  You have been brainwashed.  Q just for you.  Do you know anyone who has lived there from our military?  Do you know anyone who grew up there?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 18, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I don't have a crystal ball.  The chinese don't have the capacity to "occupy" Afghanistan.  They have the capacity and the will to economically influence afghanistan.  If there is something to be extracted out of afghanistan, they will establish a footprint, pay $$$$ for protection, and reap the benefits of cheap local labor.  Much like they've done in Southern Iraq.  But remember, we invaded Iraq for the oil...or was it to secure the oil fields for the chinese..
> 
> The russians will not set foot in Afghanistan again in any large numbers.


We have closed our embassy, Russia’s is still open for business. Who’s watching the poppy fields? Isn’t that Afghanistan’s most lucrative export?


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> We have closed our embassy, Russia’s is still open for business. Who’s watching the poppy fields? Isn’t that Afghanistan’s most lucrative export?


No one is watching the poppy fields, it's the fighting season.   The harvest doesn't start until later, well after the summer fighting season ends.  The russian consulate certainly remains open for business, whatever that may be.


----------



## watfly (Aug 18, 2021)

Don't look over there, look over here.  WTF


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 18, 2021)

Ending his vacation was the right move.   Delivering a highly political speech on masks, failing to mention Afghanistan other than god bless the troops and failing to address questions from reporters two days straight was not a good move. Then his generals dig the hole deeper by not promising to get out every American that wants out.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Ending his vacation was the right move.   Delivering a highly political speech on masks, failing to mention Afghanistan other than god bless the troops and failing to address questions from reporters two days straight was not a good move. Then his generals dig the hole deeper by not promising to get out every American that wants out.


I understand not wanting to disrupt an operation in progress by staffing changes but this is becoming untenable. Biden has got to fire some of the people in charge of this debacle (I’m surprised the chairman hasn’t fallen on his sword).  Otherwise it’s all on him and I do think at this point it’s enough to sink his presidency and if us nationals die in Afghanistan or get taken hostage, will trigger a 25th amendment campaign. The reason he doesn’t want to do it is because state, intel and defense are whispering he was warned and the debacle is all his fault…removing people will trigger a public mud slinging contest…but he needs a scapegoat and he needs to look like he’s controlling the situation or he’s finished.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 18, 2021)

Think about this. They knew when we were leaving...and yet gave up Bagram weeks ago. So now everyone is stuck using the airport in Kabul.









						Farewell to Bourgeois Kings
					

“Intelligence and rationalism are not in themselves revolutionary. But technical thinking is foreign to all social traditions: the machine has no tradition. One of Karl Marx’s seminal sociolo…




					tinkzorg.wordpress.com


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 18, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I understand not wanting to disrupt an operation in progress by staffing changes but this is becoming untenable. Biden has got to fire some of the people in charge of this debacle (I’m surprised the chairman hasn’t fallen on his sword).  Otherwise it’s all on him and I do think at this point it’s enough to sink his presidency and if us nationals die in Afghanistan or get taken hostage, will trigger a 25th amendment campaign. The reason he doesn’t want to do it is because state, intel and defense are whispering he was warned and the debacle is all his fault…removing people will trigger a public mud slinging contest…but he needs a scapegoat and he needs to look like he’s controlling the situation or he’s finished.


From the stephanopolous interview, he seems to be settling on an Afghanistan was always going to be messy argument.  That’s simply not going to fly…because: a) he had to send in more troops to facilitate the evacuation at the airport, b) he’s on the record saying a collapse probably wasn’t going to happen and c) intel/military is already in cya mode blaming the admin.  He seems to have convinced himself it’s not as bad as it seems. It is bad…a s show. All it will take is an American death or hostage and it becomes an irrecoverable debacle.  Americans will tolerate the collapse of Afghanistan but they won’t tolerate our being made to look ridiculous.  It’s ultimately what did in carter.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Think about this. They knew when we were leaving...and yet gave up Bagram weeks ago. So now everyone is stuck using the airport in Kabul.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bagram is too far away.  Many tactical reasons to close it and use Kabul as your primary egress - shorter air bridge, shorter ground route to secure if needed.  A black hawk down scenario isn't something we want to revisit.  If they need to reopen, they can. Also easier for the outlying Americans and afghanis to get to..  Both roads to Bagram from Kabul are less than desirable.


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2021)




----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 18, 2021)

This a good read.









						We Failed Afghanistan, Not the Other Way Around
					

MSNBC rails against the "fantastically corrupt elite" on the ground that ruined the Afghan mission, but the real corruption was our own




					taibbi.substack.com


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 18, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Along with promoting han nationalism, the chinese will not tolerate instability.  They also know that they are free to do what they want.  who is going to tell them to stop?


This is a tangent. Enjoy your rabbit hole. All I asked is a question and I got something else.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Aug 18, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No? Huh, makes perfect sense to me. Killing Muslims shouldn’t go down very well with Islamic extremists wouldn’t you say? But of course trump conservatives don’t concern themselves with human rights issues so you may not know about what’s happening in the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is also a tangent. Enjoy it. Not what I asked about.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 18, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> This a good read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Accurate as can be.  It's what happens when you nation build. Nation building brings in the vultures and the ambulance chasers to fill the void the DOD isn't designed to operate in but is asked to do.

Young officers running around the country with backpacks full of money paying top dollar for low skilled labor and material under the guise of injecting money into a local economy.  

Plenty of money was made.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 19, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> This is also a tangent. Enjoy it. Not what I asked about.


You asked my thoughts about China and Russia’s further involvement in Afghanistan, right?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 19, 2021)

LASTMAN14 said:


> What are your thoughts on China supposedly wanting to come in and set up? Would like to here perspective thoughts on this…


And?


----------



## crush (Aug 20, 2021)




----------



## tenacious (Aug 21, 2021)

Well things are starting to look interesting here, in that Pelosi and the Democratic party have seemingly answered the moderate threatening to sink the $3.5 Trillion progressive spending bill... by threatening to not back the moderates in the next election.

I suppose we can debate what it means, but threatening the members of your party that you'll withhold support in 2022, unless they back
a massive spending that is wildly unpopular in their districts? Hmm.... sounds like a toothless threat to me. Dems better start scaling back the size of this thing to something that can be sold to moderates or they are going to blow this all apart. Because lets face it, given those two losing choices the only plausible path for survival to a moderate dem is hold their ground and say see I'm willing to stand up to the party when I have to when the next election rolls around. In contrast how will AOC fare if she comes home with nothing to show. Again.  

Part of me hopes that Biden has realized that running around playing Santa Claus doesn't work when your gig is leader of the free world. But I'm fearful he's going to now try and amend past blunders by doubling down on the pork.









						Dem centrists say DCCC is threatening to withhold fundraising if they oppose Biden priority
					

The House Democratic campaign arm has called holdouts on the party’s $3.5 trillion budget, warning their majority is in jeopardy.




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Aug 21, 2021)

I think if House leaders were to take a real good look at fixing health care... and drop all the rest of their crazy bus progressive agenda that moderates could get on board. Not that Biden will listen to me, but if I'd say pair down the 'human infrastructure' bill down to fixing Obamacare would be a nice and achievable feather in his cap. Healthcare has been a issue plaguing dems going back to the New Deal, and he can fix it. The mood of the country is there with him... on something like that. 





__





						Susan Sarandon leads protest against the Squad at AOC's office: "We're losing hope"
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## crush (Aug 21, 2021)




----------



## Grace T. (Aug 21, 2021)

FYI the rcp average has Biden underwater favorable/dis for the first time.  Gallup has him tied but most of the polls taken recently have him pretty far under in line with trumpian numbers.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 24, 2021)

Ka-boom look who stepped in the room. But come on... it shouldn't have come to this for dem leaders to realize that letting Bernie write a $3.5 trillion dollar give-away to progressive interest groups was never going to fly. 









						Sinema: I simply won't back a $3.5T spending bill
					

As her bipartisan infrastructure bill becomes a House bargaining chip, the Arizona Democrat is reiterating her resistance to spending as much as progressives want.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 24, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ka-boom look who stepped in the room. But come on... it shouldn't have come to this for dem leaders to realize that letting Bernie write a $3.5 trillion dollar give-away to progressive interest groups was never going to fly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty damn close to flying if the only one on that side against it is Sinema.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 24, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Pretty damn close to flying if the only one on that side against it is Sinema.



In order to keep from inflaming the progressives the bipartisan infrastructure bill while it was being hammered out in the Senate, I think it made sense to let progressives have a chance to write up some serious legislation that folks can get behind. Rather than use the opportunity to put together something that might be passable they picked the number 3.5 out of the air and started writing up a naughty/nice list of how they were going to split up the cheddar... 

So into that context, I would comment that just because only Sinema was the one telling Emperor Bernie that he's wearing no clothes on this $3.5 trillion giveaway... that perhaps this is more about the cowardly disposition of moderate politicians; then it is of support of Biden's economic agenda.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 25, 2021)

A lot of talk about who won, moderates or progressives this morning. My two cents is the Infrastructure bill has now been decoupled from the Bernie bill... and a timetable has been created. I.e. Progressives seemingly have agreed to let Pelosi out of her promise to bring their bill up first? And for Progressives this leaves them room to sell America on 'human' infrastructure. They keep telling us everyone wants it, so this is their chance to put something together that has legs. (Or conversely this could also be seen as them being given enough rope to hang themselves with).  

Honestly progressives spend a lot of time telling us what great people they are. But the way they handled this recession reminds me of stories about missionaries going to disaster areas and making people watch religious videos if you want to receive aid. Trying to piggy back all this government spending on the back of fixing roads strikes me as an odd way to pass legislation that you claim people really really want.









						Forget AOC—Pelosi Has a Problem With Raging Moderates Now
					

Usually, it’s been the left forming groups to torment the speaker or announce non-negotiable demands. Now centrist Democrats are getting in on that game.




					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 25, 2021)

tenacious said:


> A lot of talk about who won, moderates or progressives this morning. My two cents is the Infrastructure bill has now been decoupled from the Bernie bill... and a timetable has been created. I.e. Progressives seemingly have agreed to let Pelosi out of her promise to bring their bill up first? And for Progressives this leaves them room to sell America on 'human' infrastructure. They keep telling us everyone wants it, so this is their chance to put something together that has legs. (Or conversely this could also be seen as them being given enough rope to hang themselves with).
> 
> Honestly progressives spend a lot of time telling us what great people they are. But the way they handled this recession reminds me of stories about missionaries going to disaster areas and making people watch religious videos if you want to receive aid. Trying to piggy back all this government spending on the back of fixing roads strikes me as an odd way to pass legislation that you claim people really really want.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I have been hearing and reading about “conservatives” telling us what “the American people want”, “what the American people believe” for decades. And it’s usually something that benefits and or favors Christians or the wealthy. On the other side we are told what we need and many of those things have turned out quite well for “the American people”. Social Security, bank regulation, social services, work place regulations, safety measures, national infrastructure, etc. What has “conservatism done for “the American people”?


----------



## crush (Aug 25, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry but I have been hearing and reading about “conservatives” telling us what “the American people want”, “what the American people believe” for decades. And it’s usually something that benefits and or favors Christians or the wealthy. On the other side we are told what we need and many of those things have turned out quite well for “the American people”. Social Security, bank regulation, social services, work place regulations, safety measures, national infrastructure, etc. What has “conservatism done for “the American people”?


*When you let go of fear
   the truth will appear
    so simple and clear*


----------



## crush (Aug 25, 2021)




----------



## tenacious (Aug 25, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry but I have been hearing and reading about “conservatives” telling us what “the American people want”, “what the American people believe” for decades. And it’s usually something that benefits and or favors Christians or the wealthy. On the other side we are told what we need and many of those things have turned out quite well for “the American people”. Social Security, bank regulation, social services, work place regulations, safety measures, national infrastructure, etc. What has “conservatism done for “the American people”?


I agree, conservatives were just as bad. But that's sort of why I'm on this moderate trip as of late... the two parties have both become dysfunctional. 

Moreover, can't help but wonder are you happy with how things are going Husker? The talk of massive deficit spending, the angry partisanship, Afghanistan? When I think about it, part of me wants to see the Dems take another crack at fixing things like health care. The other part of me worries they are like the gang who couldn't shoot straight, and will make it worse with their good intentions. Like they are doing with the boarder, and our international reputation.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 25, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I agree, conservatives were just as bad. But that's sort of why I'm on this moderate trip as of late... the two parties have both become dysfunctional.
> 
> Moreover, can't help but wonder are you happy with how things are going Husker? The talk of massive deficit spending, the angry partisanship, Afghanistan? When I think about it, part of me wants to see the Dems take another crack at fixing things like health care. The other part of me worries they are like the gang who couldn't shoot straight, and will make it worse with their good intentions. Like they are doing with the boarder, and our international reputation.


The parties seem to be following each other in to ineffectiveness. The GOP has gone so far off the tracks all the dems need to do is act like adults. With the GOP focusing solely on winning at all costs and having no platform besides kissing the ring (or is it ass?) while gaslighting harder everyday the dems have little incentive to do much more than to point fingers, hold up mirrors and hand microphones to those on the right.
Our military was never going to be very effective in Afghanistan with their hands tied. The withdrawal started horribly without proper structure, guidance nor oversight. The military has now kicked it up a notch or two and is doing better. Better isn’t great, just better.
Deficit spending? Gimme a break! If it’s tax cuts or subsidies for the wealthy it’s good. If it’s modernization of infrastructure of all types that will benefit everyone it’s communism and scary bad. Both parties are subservient to big money not “We the people”. Get money out of politics or the downward spiral will continue. Citizen’s United was a major blow to democracy. 
Most people don’t understand they are being manipulated by those monied interests. Through research groups, think tanks, psychology and focus groups propaganda is formulated to sway our opinions. The tobacco industry, big pharma, fossil fuel and various other industries have us convinced they are good guys who want what’s best for society instead of the shareholder driven race for profit above all else.
I’ll step down from the soap box now.


----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 26, 2021)

I guess this is the smart and savy foreign policy experience we were lacking under T.


The adults are back in charge, baby!



> *U.S. officials in Kabul gave the Taliban a list of names of American citizens, green card holders and Afghan allies to grant entry into the militant-controlled outer perimeter of the city's airport*, a choice that's prompted outrage behind the scenes from lawmakers and military officials.





> The move, detailed to POLITICO by three U.S. and congressional officials, was designed to expedite the evacuation of tens of thousands of people from Afghanistan as chaos erupted in Afghanistan's capital city last week after the Taliban seized control of the country. It also came as the Biden administration has been relying on the Taliban for security outside the airport.





> But the decision to provide specific names to the Taliban, which has a history of brutally murdering Afghans who collaborated with the U.S. and other coalition forces during the conflict, has angered lawmakers and military officials.





> *"Basically, they just put all those Afghans on a kill list,"* said one defense official, who like others spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive topic. "It's just appalling and shocking and makes you feel unclean."


----------



## tenacious (Aug 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The parties seem to be following each other in to ineffectiveness. The GOP has gone so far off the tracks all the dems need to do is act like adults. With the GOP focusing solely on winning at all costs and having no platform besides kissing the ring (or is it ass?) while gaslighting harder everyday the dems have little incentive to do much more than to point fingers, hold up mirrors and hand microphones to those on the right.
> Our military was never going to be very effective in Afghanistan with their hands tied. The withdrawal started horribly without proper structure, guidance nor oversight. The military has now kicked it up a notch or two and is doing better. Better isn’t great, just better.
> Deficit spending? Gimme a break! If it’s tax cuts or subsidies for the wealthy it’s good. If it’s modernization of infrastructure of all types that will benefit everyone it’s communism and scary bad. Both parties are subservient to big money not “We the people”. Get money out of politics or the downward spiral will continue. Citizen’s United was a major blow to democracy.
> Most people don’t understand they are being manipulated by those monied interests. Through research groups, think tanks, psychology and focus groups propaganda is formulated to sway our opinions. The tobacco industry, big pharma, fossil fuel and various other industries have us convinced they are good guys who want what’s best for society instead of the shareholder driven race for profit above all else.
> I’ll step down from the soap box now.


Sadly Husker, I would guess even more people then you might think "don't understand they are being manipulated by monied interests."


----------



## tenacious (Aug 27, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> I guess this is the smart and savy foreign policy experience we were lacking under T.
> 
> 
> The adults are back in charge, baby!


Ugh. Rather then more empty threats about never forgetting as we slink away, I'd prefer to see some heads start rolling. Even Trump got talked out of an Afghanistan withdraw and to instead open up dialogue. I know Trump didn't think that up on his own... so my vote is we get that same person who frog marched 45 through middle east policy... in there talking to Biden.


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2021)




----------



## Desert Hound (Aug 27, 2021)

He looked shaky yesterday speaking.

But I definitely noticed this.









						Biden Says Quiet Part Out Loud: “The First Person I was Instructed to Call On…”
					

"Ladies & Gentlemen, they gave me a list here."




					legalinsurrection.com


----------



## what-happened (Aug 27, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Ugh. Rather then more empty threats about never forgetting as we slink away, I'd prefer to see some heads start rolling. Even Trump got talked out of an Afghanistan withdraw and to instead open up dialogue. I know Trump didn't think that up on his own... so my vote is we get that same person who frog marched 45 through middle east policy... in there talking to Biden.


The trump "withdrawal" was 1 MAY, conditions based and with a different stay behind profile. It's obvious that he routinely did his own thing but that there were some professionals who had his ear.  He certainly didn't believe or trust the entrenched General Officer class who routinely advocated for more troops and more resources into Afghanistan.  Trump at least didn't succumb to the same onslaught that was given to the two previous administrations.  Money and our national treasure shouldn't be used to reinforce terrible foreign policy.  20 years is enough.  

Any drawdown of forces in Afghanistan was going to require Taliban cooperation.  What we are seeing now is complete incompetence, at many and all levels within our government.  As is the norm, the US Military is left to figure things out on the ground.  Pentagon leadership has shown their inability to influence civilian oversight and are stuck carrying out an already complex mission with one hand behind their back.  

It was/is/has been time to leave Afghanistan.  No amount of money, training, modernization is ever going to galvanize a country that doesn't have a national identify. The Taliban will not have influence outside of the major cities, just like the previous Afghan government, and the Taliban before that.

Many talking heads who are puffing up their chest have never placed a ruck on their back and walked those streets.  There is no doubt a withdrawal needed to be conducted in a manner that clearly demonstrated our lethal capacity. That didn't happen, likely not going to happen, and will paint a picture of weakness to many in that part of the world.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Aug 27, 2021)

I think Jocko said it best in his “if I where President” post on Instagram.  


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CS7wqiBJG6Z/


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 27, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Sadly Husker, I would guess even more people then you might think "don't understand they are being manipulated by monied interests."


We all are to some extent. “Say it enough time’s and people will start to believe”


----------



## espola (Aug 27, 2021)




----------



## espola (Aug 27, 2021)

I guess if Joe is taking the blame for a war he didn't start he should get some credit for fighting it:

CENTCOM: "U.S. military forces conducted an over-the-horizon counterterrorism operation today against an ISIS-K planner. The unmanned airstrike occurred in the Nangahar Province of Afghanistan. Initial indications are that we killed the target. We know of no civilian casualties."


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 27, 2021)

espola said:


> I guess if Joe is taking the blame for a war he didn't start he should get some credit for fighting it:
> 
> CENTCOM: "U.S. military forces conducted an over-the-horizon counterterrorism operation today against an ISIS-K planner. The unmanned airstrike occurred in the Nangahar Province of Afghanistan. Initial indications are that we killed the target. We know of no civilian casualties."


The drones are back.


----------



## espola (Aug 27, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The drones are back.


 Pulp Fiction was on today.  Seems appropriate here --


----------



## crush (Aug 28, 2021)

All those who hate t, turn the cheek with all the cheating, watch this for 11 minutes.  Those who have mocked t and feel threaten by t message, please ask yourself why so many hate him?  What are you doing behind closed doors?  I want Espola and his crew of creeps to watch this 100%.  The Lion Mr. Trump message at the very beginning of his administration was to *END HUMMAN TRAFFICKING* and all the endless wars!  T started ZERO wars!!!  I dare you to watch losers!!!









						Trump's War Against Child Sex Trafficking - 2240
					

Trump's War Against Child Sex Trafficking - 2240 ✅ Pete Santilli LIVE! https://rumble.com/PeteLive ✅ The Pete Santilli Show Main Channel: https://rumble.com/c/ThePeteSantilliShow ✅ SBN News Clips: htt




					rumble.com


----------



## crush (Aug 28, 2021)

NO MORE WAR!!!!  PLEASE, NO MORE WAR!!!


----------



## crush (Aug 30, 2021)




----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The drones are back.


Amazing how precise our intel has become in such a short amount of time.  Just amazing.    Two drone strikes.  2nd strike very effective at killing kids.  "over the horizon" is such a stoopid term but appropriate lexicon from the cast of clowns currently in charge..


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> I guess if Joe is taking the blame for a war he didn't start he should get some credit for fighting it:
> 
> CENTCOM: "U.S. military forces conducted an over-the-horizon counterterrorism operation today against an ISIS-K planner. The unmanned airstrike occurred in the Nangahar Province of Afghanistan. Initial indications are that we killed the target. We know of no civilian casualties."


This didn't age very well.  But he should take credit for bad decisions.  You can add this to his current ruck sack full of them.  Thank goodness for counter battery systems on the ground at HKIA.  Prevented more casualties today.

How is Joe taking the blame for a war he didn't start?  Most agree with getting out.  It's the how that he's getting excoriated for.  Once this is over, there should be stack of letters of resignation on his desk.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Amazing how precise our intel has become in such a short amount of time.  Just amazing.    Two drone strikes.  2nd strike very effective at killing kids.  "over the horizon" is such a stoopid term but appropriate lexicon from the cast of clowns currently in charge..


Over the horizon is an appropriate description for killer-drone technology whose directors are out of sight of the targets and in some cases are located in air-conditioned work centers stateside.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> This didn't age very well.  But he should take credit for bad decisions.  You can add this to his current ruck sack full of them.  Thank goodness for counter battery systems on the ground at HKIA.  Prevented more casualties today.
> 
> How is Joe taking the blame for a war he didn't start?  Most agree with getting out.  It's the how that he's getting excoriated for.  Once this is over, there should be stack of letters of resignation on his desk.


What else is in that rucksack?


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> Over the horizon is an appropriate description for killer-drone technology whose directors are out of sight of the targets and in some cases are located in air-conditioned work centers stateside.


You fit right in - killer drone technology and directors?  The drone operators prefer to be called pilots and draw flight pay.  And yes, in most cases, they are flying the drones remotely from bases far away from drone airfields.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> What else is in that rucksack?


Let's be conservative - just focus on his hiring skills : SEC State, NSA

But nice job on sidestepping your initial praise for the precise application of "over the horizon counterterror operations".  Nothing but gibberish coming out of the Pentagon these days.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Let's be conservative - just focus on his hiring skills : SEC State, NSA
> 
> But nice job on sidestepping your initial praise for the precise application of "over the horizon counterterror operations".  Nothing but gibberish coming out of the Pentagon these days.


That's just words.  Did you intend them to have meaning?

I didn't sidestep anything.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> You fit right in - killer drone technology and directors?  The drone operators prefer to be called pilots and draw flight pay.  And yes, in most cases, they are flying the drones remotely from bases far away from drone airfields.


"Far away"?  As in over the horizon far away?


----------



## crush (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Amazing how precise our intel has become in such a short amount of time.  Just amazing.    Two drone strikes.  2nd strike very effective at killing kids.  "over the horizon" is such a stoopid term but appropriate lexicon from the cast of clowns currently in charge..


ISIS-K is the new top dog in the neighborhood.  I have not heard that word in years and now their back.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> "Far away"?  As in over the horizon far away?


You crack me up.  Yes, far away = over the horizon= dead kids in kabul.  A very fitting exit for Joe and company.  Never mind a sad final chapter written for the 13 killed.  Don't you worry though, this will be gone from the media battle rhythm by next week. 

Let's throw in the other stoopid term that you can dissect:  Defensive strike.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> You crack me up.  Yes, far away = over the horizon= dead kids in kabul.  A very fitting exit for Joe and company.  Never mind a sad final chapter written for the 13 killed.  Don't you worry though, this will be gone from the media battle rhythm by next week.
> 
> Let's throw in the other stoopid term that you can dissect:  Defensive strike.


I'll stick with "over the horizon" since,  despite what appears to be your best efforts, it's still valid.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> I'll stick with "over the horizon" since,  despite what appears to be your best efforts, it's still valid.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 30, 2021)

I remember when President kicked HRCs ass in the election and poor ol' Tenacious D was so worried about how "dangerous" Trump will be in the WH. Tick tok..we are now closer to Nuclear War then at anytime in the last 80 years. 

And cue the drunken rat in 5, 4....

Sorry, won't be around to read his diatribe...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 30, 2021)

espola said:


> I'll stick with "over the horizon" since,  despite what appears to be your best efforts, it's still valid.


Yea..stick to that instead of wondering what guys do at the urinal...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 30, 2021)

what-happened said:


> This didn't age very well.  But he should take credit for bad decisions.  You can add this to his current ruck sack full of them.  Thank goodness for counter battery systems on the ground at HKIA.  Prevented more casualties today.
> 
> How is Joe taking the blame for a war he didn't start?  Most agree with getting out.  It's the how that he's getting excoriated for.  Once this is over, there should be stack of letters of resignation on his desk.


----------



## what-happened (Aug 30, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 11559


  This is classless rhetoric by a low rent organization like occupy democrats.   More soldiers died in Afghanistant under Obama than any other president.  More dollars were spent under Obama in Afghanistan than any other president. Did the conservatives convince him to surge troops into Afghanistan and spend money to build infrastructure that was continuously over budget and behind schedule.  He was an excellent revenue driver for his buddies on wall street and the defence contractor community.  The pentagon leadership is as complicit as Obama, Bush, Trump, and Biden.  

All Biden had to do was leave.  He could barely give a press briefing and failed miserably to coordinate his cabinet.  He was the smallest man in a room of very small men.  Failure at all levels across departments  led to the loss of 13 lives.  Most won't remember or care this time next week.   Biden may very well literally forget this even happen. 

What you fail to see is that politicians on both sides of the fence are guilty of fleecing your pockets and expending our national treasure on  useless,meaningless, and ill planned adventures.  Greed is a powerful human impulse.  I agree in principle with what you are saying.  No one has spoken about Afghanistan in years.  Their wasn't  a political reason to.  Military families have always 100% carried the burden of dealing with the realities of their daily sacrifice.  People like you put these stupid partisan charts on forums to plant a political flag.  Nice job, golf clap. 

If this chart represents your sentiment then so be it - you are a loyal tribe member.  The loss of life last thursday was 100% avoidable. Many reasons why it was 100% avoidable.  To explain those reasons to you would surely exceed your capacity to understand. Comparing their deaths  to previous years and exploiting  their deaths politically is shameful.  I can see why you wouldn't understand or grasp the difference.

You should really consider making this your last post about anything related to our service men and women.


----------



## tenacious (Aug 31, 2021)

I respect the heck out of Eugene Robinson, however I just don't agree that Biden's a victim. Trillions in giveaways, identity politics, tax hikes, moves to weaken the military...

Biden came into office and played to the 25% on the far left end of the political spectrum. It won him fawning tweets and opinion pieces on the internet, but politically the big picture is it's left him exposed at a time when he should be able to unite. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/30/how-be-crisis-president-when-crises-dont-unite-country-anymore/


----------



## espola (Aug 31, 2021)

what-happened said:


> This is classless rhetoric by a low rent organization like occupy democrats.   More soldiers died in Afghanistant under Obama than any other president.  More dollars were spent under Obama in Afghanistan than any other president. Did the conservatives convince him to surge troops into Afghanistan and spend money to build infrastructure that was continuously over budget and behind schedule.  He was an excellent revenue driver for his buddies on wall street and the defence contractor community.  The pentagon leadership is as complicit as Obama, Bush, Trump, and Biden.
> 
> All Biden had to do was leave.  He could barely give a press briefing and failed miserably to coordinate his cabinet.  He was the smallest man in a room of very small men.  Failure at all levels across departments  led to the loss of 13 lives.  Most won't remember or care this time next week.   Biden may very well literally forget this even happen.
> 
> ...


Some things are always the same --

I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.  

--USMC Major General (ret) Smedley Butler, 1933





__





						War is a racket, by Smedley D. Butler.
					





					babel.hathitrust.org


----------



## what-happened (Aug 31, 2021)

espola said:


> Some things are always the same --
> 
> I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
> 
> ...


The sad truth.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 31, 2021)

what-happened said:


> This is classless rhetoric by a low rent organization like occupy democrats.   More soldiers died in Afghanistant under Obama than any other president.  More dollars were spent under Obama in Afghanistan than any other president. Did the conservatives convince him to surge troops into Afghanistan and spend money to build infrastructure that was continuously over budget and behind schedule.  He was an excellent revenue driver for his buddies on wall street and the defence contractor community.  The pentagon leadership is as complicit as Obama, Bush, Trump, and Biden.
> 
> All Biden had to do was leave.  He could barely give a press briefing and failed miserably to coordinate his cabinet.  He was the smallest man in a room of very small men.  Failure at all levels across departments  led to the loss of 13 lives.  Most won't remember or care this time next week.   Biden may very well literally forget this even happen.
> 
> ...


Is this the first post of mine you have seen?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

Good thing we've got Biden in there getting it all sorted for us! Maybe after he surrenders Taiwan we'll get treated to another up is down speech about how this is really a win?









						‘Spiral into crisis’: The U.S.-China military hotline is dangerously broken
					

The Pentagon just had its first virtual meeting with China's military. But former officials warn the communications gap could lead to war.




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

Considering the likely 2024 republican alternative to Biden is Trump (and were on the subject delusional leadership); imagine the lectures were going to have to sit through from T with regard to how 'he didn't lose in 2020, rather Biden stole the election'?









						Trump booed at Alabama rally after telling supporters to get vaccinated
					

"But I recommend take the vaccines," Trump said. "I did it. It's good. Take the vaccines."




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)




----------



## dad4 (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Considering the likely 2024 republican alternative to Biden is Trump (and were on the subject delusional leadership); imagine the lectures were going to have to sit through from T with regard to how 'he didn't lose in 2020, rather Biden stole the election'?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The parties are not giving us a great choice.  But it’s an easy choice for me.  I will vote for a conservative when the GOP nominates one.  You know the type:  balance the budget, cut waste, strong military, and all that. 

Unfortunately, that is not the direction of the current party.  The GOP will offer us nationalistic populism, and I will vote for whatever left wing loon wins the Democratic primary.   Not great, but better than losing the ability to vote next time.  Nationalistic populists, whether right or left, don’t have a great record of transferring power through elections.


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> The parties are not giving us a great choice.  But it’s an easy choice for me. * I will vote for a conservative when the GOP nominates one.*  You know the type:  balance the budget, cut waste, strong military, and all that.
> 
> Unfortunately, that is not the direction of the current party.  The GOP will offer us nationalistic populism, and I will vote for whatever left wing loon wins the Democratic primary.   Not great, but better than losing the ability to vote next time.  Nationalistic populists, whether right or left, don’t have a great record of transferring power through elections.


Nice try dad.  Here's the deal dude. * WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO RUN THIS COUNTRY.*  This country was built by God and for God's set purpose.  Go ahead and play with your math all you want.  Vote for God, not man or party.  Right vs Left, R vs D, DNC vs RNC, GOP vs Rhino, White vs Asian, Heaven vs Hell, My Way vs The Highway, Mask vs No Mask, Jab vs No Jab, Liberal vs Conservative, Grace vs Espola, Light vs Dark, Satan vs Jesus and and on and on we go.  If anyone can find Truth, Honesty and Justice for all, please let me know.  Russia vs USA, China vs USA, Iran vs USA, ISIS vs USA, Terrorist vs USA.  Oh God, please help.  This "Us vs Them" game is about to blow up.  I will sit back and get me some popcorn and watch the SoCal Soccer Forum go nuts.  Be safe Dad and to everyone else; love your family.  I love you all


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> The parties are not giving us a great choice.  But it’s an easy choice for me.  I will vote for a conservative when the GOP nominates one.  You know the type:  balance the budget, cut waste, strong military, and all that.
> 
> Unfortunately, that is not the direction of the current party.  The GOP will offer us nationalistic populism, and I will vote for whatever left wing loon wins the Democratic primary.   Not great, but better than losing the ability to vote next time.  Nationalistic populists, whether right or left, don’t have a great record of transferring power through elections.


Fair answer. Although that was my logic with Biden.

However a year in and I'm finding his leadership style reminds me of a quote from M Thatcher- "socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money." And that for me is the rub. If I have to pick between two idiots with bad ideas, it comes down to which one of them is going to spend less of my kids and grandkids money?


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Fair answer. Although that was my logic with Biden.


Well, you voted for him so at least help us clean up after him.  His dirty diapers are nasty and full of shit.  I told you a long time ago the truth.  Go back and read your glowing reviews about this guy.  His son is going around making $500,000 for a piece of art.  Have you watched any parts of the Lap Tops from hell?  Dude is walking around making $$$$ all the while our brave men & woman are being set up to be killed for no reason.  Are you awake yet?


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)

2003 New York City Pear Jam






“A confidence man, but why so beleaguered?” Vedder sings. “He’s not a leader, he’s a Texas leaguer/Swinging for the fence, got lucky with a strike/Drilling for fear, makes the job simple/Born on third, thinks he got a triple.”

“I don’t understand,” he said afterward. *“Maybe you like him because he’s going to give you a tax cut.* Maybe you like him because he’s a real guy that relates to you because he’s so down-home.” The crowd then begins chanting “USA!” over and over. “I’m with you,” Vedder says. *“USA. I just think that all of us in this room should have a voice in how the USA is represented, and he didn’t allow us our voice. That’s all I’m saying.”*


----------



## dad4 (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Fair answer. Although that was my logic with Biden.
> 
> However a year in and I'm finding his leadership style reminds me of a quote from M Thatcher- "socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money." And that for me is the rub. If I have to pick between two idiots with bad ideas, it comes down to which one of them is going to spend less of my kids and grandkids money?


We can always hope for a tax fraud conviction....


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Considering the likely 2024 republican alternative to Biden is Trump (and were on the subject delusional leadership); imagine the lectures were going to have to sit through from T with regard to how 'he didn't lose in 2020, rather Biden stole the election'?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt Biden will be running in 2024…I have reservations about whether Biden will make it to the midterms let alone the end of the year.  Look at videos at him from a year ago and look at him now…the presidency is never easy of the aging of people who hold the office and whatever is going on with him is advancing.


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> We can always hope for a tax fraud conviction....


You can;t always get what you hope for dad.  I told my liberal pal after he wanted t impeached twice the same thing.  Remember, we were all here debating the issues way before the Plandemic was brought to us from the Scammers.  The Hell Mary Election Fraud was out of desperation so WE THE PEOPLE would not see the the real truth, Crimes against Humanity.  This a big No, No, No, No and it doesnt matter if your a Liberal or Conservative.  If you mess with kids, one Millstone coming just for you. 100% thought t pee pee in Moscow.  Watch this video and you tell me WTF is going on.  Humanity is going to take charge real soon.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Is this the first post of mine you have seen?


and.....


----------



## dad4 (Sep 1, 2021)

crush said:


> You can;t always get what you hope for dad.  I told my liberal pal after he wanted t impeached twice the same thing.  Remember, we were all here debating the issues way before the Plandemic was brought to us from the Scammers.  The Hell Mary Election Fraud was out of desperation so WE THE PEOPLE would not see the the real truth, Crimes against Humanity.  This a big No, No, No, No and it doesnt matter if your a Liberal or Conservative.  If you mess with kids, one Millstone coming just for you. 100% thought t pee pee in Moscow.  Watch this video and you tell me WTF is going on.  Humanity is going to take charge real soon.


Too many apocalyptic words.  

Go to the beach.  Enjoy some waves and pop open a cold one with New Wave Dave.  Enjoy the sunset and remember to honor your fellow travellers, especially when you disagree with them.

Peace out.
D4


----------



## watfly (Sep 1, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> I seriously doubt Biden will be running in 2024…I have reservations about whether Biden will make it to the midterms let alone the end of the year.  Look at videos at him from a year ago and look at him now…the presidency is never easy of the aging of people who hold the office and whatever is going on with him is advancing.


They are going to have a tough time propping him up for 3 years.  No way, its 3 years + 4.  Harris is unelectable, unless Trump runs, then maybe she has a chance.


----------



## watfly (Sep 1, 2021)

watfly said:


> They are going to have a tough time propping him up for 3 years.  No way, its 3 years + 4.  Harris is unelectable, unless Trump runs, then maybe she has a chance.


If he does get reelected its going to be "Weekend at Biden's".


----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> The parties are not giving us a great choice.  But it’s an easy choice for me.  I will vote for a conservative when the GOP nominates one.  You know the type:  balance the budget, cut waste, strong military, and all that.
> 
> Unfortunately, that is not the direction of the current party.  The GOP will offer us nationalistic populism, and I will vote for whatever left wing loon wins the Democratic primary.   Not great, but better than losing the ability to vote next time.  Nationalistic populists, whether right or left, don’t have a great record of transferring power through elections.


Hence, you are responsible for a feckless senile old idiot who just killed 13 brave Americans which was completely avoidable. Brilliant!

You, military leaders, and your moron in the WH all have blood on your hands...sleep well.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 1, 2021)

met61 said:


> Hence, you are responsible for a feckless senile old idiot who just killed 13 brave Americans which was completely avoidable. Brilliant!
> 
> You, military leaders, and your moron in the WH all have blood on your hands...sleep well.


If you want to discuss Afghanistan, take a look at the records of both senile old men who were on the ballot last time.

The white haired senile old man left Afghanistan by withdrawing support first and planning the evacuation second.

The orange haired senile old man released thousands of terrorists in exchange for nothing more than a promise to negotiate.

Neither one stands out as an example of foreign policy wisdom.  

Perhaps I’ll get a chance to vote for a green haired senile old man some day.  Maybe he’d do better.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If you want to discuss Afghanistan, take a look at the records of both senile old men who were on the ballot last time.
> 
> The white haired senile old man left Afghanistan by withdrawing support first and planning the evacuation second.
> 
> ...


There was never going to be a simple solution.  The trumpian talks set prisoners free on both sides.  Most prisoners released by the afghani government were hired guns during the fighting season who would go back to their poppy fields when they weren't being forced to fight.  There were high ranking Taliban that were eventually let go.  The Taliban released a batch of kidnapped provincial leaders.  The reality is both sides were trying to save face and we were looking for an honorable exit to a stupid excursion.  The 1 MAY trump deadline was conditions based, code for not leaving and find a reason to stay.

The white haired senile guy blew a perfect opportunity to leave afghanistan in an honorable way, showing military strength.  We actually left twice, in the darkness, with tail firmlyl tucked between our legs.  Either way we were leaving.  Let's hope that we are able to "diplomat" our remaining people out of the country in an expedient manner.  the 20th anniversary of 9/11  will quickly be here.  That part of the world is all about symbolism, drama, and posturing, and playing to their base.  Keep in mind vidoes of ISIS in Iraq and what they did to their political prisoners.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

met61 said:


> Hence, you are responsible for a feckless senile old idiot who just killed 13 brave Americans which was completely avoidable. Brilliant!
> 
> You, military leaders, and your moron in the WH all have blood on your hands...sleep well.


How would you have handled the situation differently?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> There was never going to be a simple solution.  The trumpian talks set prisoners free on both sides.  Most prisoners released by the afghani government were hired guns during the fighting season who would go back to their poppy fields when they weren't being forced to fight.  There were high ranking Taliban that were eventually let go.  The Taliban released a batch of kidnapped provincial leaders.  The reality is both sides were trying to save face and we were looking for an honorable exit to a stupid excursion.  The 1 MAY trump deadline was conditions based, code for not leaving and find a reason to stay.
> 
> The white haired senile guy blew a perfect opportunity to leave afghanistan in an honorable way, showing military strength.  We actually left twice, in the darkness, with tail firmlyl tucked between our legs.  Either way we were leaving.  Let's hope that we are able to "diplomat" our remaining people out of the country in an expedient manner.  the 20th anniversary of 9/11  will quickly be here.  That part of the world is all about symbolism, drama, and posturing, and playing to their base.  Keep in mind vidoes of ISIS in Iraq and what they did to their political prisoners.


This is pretty close to my read on it to.

If anything Biden should have waited until winter when the Taliban couldn't cross the mountains and we could have had several months to pull out cleanly during the winter break.  And that's what really bothers me, knowing now what Biden wanted... he really bungled it, when there were options to achieve exactly what he wanted that only required a bit more patience and intellect.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> This is pretty close to my read on it to.
> 
> If anything Biden should have waited until winter when the Taliban couldn't cross the mountains and we could have had several months to pull out cleanly during the winter break.


The terrain piece is really only applicable to when we directly engaged Taliban, and that hasn't been the case for some time.  The winter reduces their mobility (everyone's mobility) into and out of sanctuary (pakistani border) .  Sanctuary  hasn't been as important since they haven't really been on the run since 2013-14ish.  The Taliban have been in control of most of the country for some time.  Besides, winter is everyone's problem.  Our biggest advantage is and always will be our air assets.  Bagram and Kabul are routinely impacted by winter weather.  Better to operate in reliable weather.

The bottom line is we demonstrated weakness, militarily and diplomatically.  Demonstration of strength goes a long way in that part of the world.  Keep your fingers crossed that the Taliban truly emerge enlightened and can particpate as adults on the world stage.... I wouldn't hold my breath but maybe the State Department is full of smarter people than we thought.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The terrain piece is really only applicable to when we directly engaged Taliban, and that hasn't been the case for some time.  The winter reduces their mobility (everyone's mobility) into and out of sanctuary (pakistani border) .  Sanctuary  hasn't been as important since they haven't really been on the run since 2013-14ish.  The Taliban have been in control of most of the country for some time.  Besides, winter is everyone's problem.  Our biggest advantage is and always will be our air assets.  Bagram and Kabul are routinely impacted by winter weather.  Better to operate in reliable weather.
> 
> The bottom line is we demonstrated weakness, militarily and diplomatically.  Demonstration of strength goes a long way in that part of the world.  Keep your fingers crossed that the Taliban truly emerge enlightened and can particpate as adults on the world stage.... I wouldn't hold my breath but maybe the State Department is full of smarter people than we thought.


Not sure your assessment of the weather in Afghanistan is correct. The weather in Kabul in Dec is 200+ average hours of sunshine with daytime temps in the 2 - 15 degrees Celcus range. https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine,Kabul,Afghanistan

Now the conditions of the mountain passes that the Taliban would need to launch a winter attack in Dec? That all shuts down.


----------



## espola (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> There was never going to be a simple solution.  The trumpian talks set prisoners free on both sides.  Most prisoners released by the afghani government were hired guns during the fighting season who would go back to their poppy fields when they weren't being forced to fight.  There were high ranking Taliban that were eventually let go.  The Taliban released a batch of kidnapped provincial leaders.  The reality is both sides were trying to save face and we were looking for an honorable exit to a stupid excursion.  The 1 MAY trump deadline was conditions based, code for not leaving and find a reason to stay.
> 
> The white haired senile guy blew a perfect opportunity to leave afghanistan in an honorable way, showing military strength.  We actually left twice, in the darkness, with tail firmlyl tucked between our legs.  Either way we were leaving.  Let's hope that we are able to "diplomat" our remaining people out of the country in an expedient manner.  the 20th anniversary of 9/11  will quickly be here.  That part of the world is all about symbolism, drama, and posturing, and playing to their base.  Keep in mind vidoes of ISIS in Iraq and what they did to their political prisoners.


What would an honorable way have looked like?


----------



## espola (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> The terrain piece is really only applicable to when we directly engaged Taliban, and that hasn't been the case for some time.  The winter reduces their mobility (everyone's mobility) into and out of sanctuary (pakistani border) .  Sanctuary  hasn't been as important since they haven't really been on the run since 2013-14ish.  The Taliban have been in control of most of the country for some time.  Besides, winter is everyone's problem.  Our biggest advantage is and always will be our air assets.  Bagram and Kabul are routinely impacted by winter weather.  Better to operate in reliable weather.
> 
> The bottom line is we demonstrated weakness, militarily and diplomatically.  Demonstration of strength goes a long way in that part of the world.  Keep your fingers crossed that the Taliban truly emerge enlightened and can particpate as adults on the world stage.... I wouldn't hold my breath but maybe the State Department is full of smarter people than we thought.


What does "demonstration of strength" look like?


----------



## N00B (Sep 1, 2021)

More than 30 California children still stuck in Afghanistan


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Not sure your assessment of the weather in Afghanistan is correct. The weather in Kabul in Dec is 200+ average hours of sunshine with daytime temps in the 2 - 15 degrees Celcus range. https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine,Kabul,Afghanistan
> 
> Now the conditions of the mountain passes that the Taliban would need to launch a winter attack in Dec? That all shuts down.


I dont' know how much time you've spent in Kabul and Bagram during the winter over the last 15 years or so.  We can have a weather conversation about Kabul, Bagram, etc.  Rest assured both airfields can be impacted by winter weather.  Can we plan around it, sure....but why?

 Weather impacts European bases, etc.  Drone, strike aircraft coming from a long way out are impacted by winter weather.  

  The days of the Taliban retreating to winter sanctuary are long gone.  That's not where they hang out, and if they did, our troop levels would be back at Obama surge #s.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

espola said:


> What does "demonstration of strength" look like?


You flex, like you do when you are in the gym.  Look mean into the mirrow.


----------



## espola (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> You flex, like you do when you are in the gym.  Look mean into the mirrow.


AS I suspected, you have nothing.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Sep 1, 2021)

watfly said:


> If he does get reelected its going to be "Weekend at Biden's".


I suspect it already is!


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 1, 2021)

watfly said:


> Harris is unelectable


Remember that even in CA during the primaries she was only polling about 3%. And that is Dems. 

Nobody likes her. She is a lightweight. And that is being generous.


----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> How would you have handled the situation differently?


With Honor and Dignity.

Details:
Maintain Bagram as the center of gravity and withdrawal operations on our timeline.

Exfil ALL US personnel, SIV's, and equipment through Bagram.

Initiate around the clock low altitude strategic flyovers using B-1's, B-2 Stealth Bombers and B-52's.

Provide the Taliban daily target acquisition satellite photos of their strategic facilities, equipment, and troop concentrations...with a guarantee that these items will disappear should they or any terrorist group choose to interfere.

Upon mission completion of an orderly withdrawal... destroy Bagram and any remaining equipment.

Conduct one final flyover to drop leaflets of Donald Trump flipping the bird!


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

espola said:


> AS I suspected, you have nothing.


Nothing at all.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I dont' know how much time you've spent in Kabul and Bagram during the winter over the last 15 years or so.  We can have a weather conversation about Kabul, Bagram, etc.  Rest assured both airfields can be impacted by winter weather.  Can we plan around it, sure....but why?
> 
> Weather impacts European bases, etc.  Drone, strike aircraft coming from a long way out are impacted by winter weather.
> 
> The days of the Taliban retreating to winter sanctuary are long gone.  That's not where they hang out, and if they did, our troop levels would be back at Obama surge #s.


A couple years back I drove highway M41 along the northern Afghan/Tajik boarder from Duschambe to Khorugh while driving the silk road. So I'm familiar with the terrain. There is no comparable landscape in the US, but as you cross central Asia up into the Hindu Kush all the way out to Kathmandu there are tall mountains, grassy steps and gigantic temperate valleys protected by enormous and steep slopes covered in what looks like chaparral. And like most cities in central Asia I'd guess Kabul and Bagram are both located in valleys and would have year round air service in the wintertime.

And while I realize this is the internet and anyone can say anything; but from what I saw you'd have a hard time convincing me that a winter air retreat was the "riskier" option.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 1, 2021)

met61 said:


> With Honor and Dignity.
> 
> Details:
> Maintain Bagram as the center of gravity and withdrawal operations on our timeline.
> ...


It's interesting, you don't actually seem opposed to the withdraw.

Anyway I'm not a military expert so hopefully some of the other posters will weigh in.  But weren't we were already bombing everything the satellite photos showed us for the past 20 years? I.e. I'm not sure that threat carries much weight. Likewise, as to the B-1's and Stealth bombers... I don't know how well that works against gorilla warfare attacks like the Taliban utilized?

That said... I'm with you on the orderly withdrawal part as my insides are telling me this is going to end US Embassy in Tehran bad.


----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> If you want to discuss Afghanistan, take a look at the records of both senile old men who were on the ballot last time.
> 
> The white haired senile old man left Afghanistan by withdrawing support first and planning the evacuation second.
> 
> ...


You're a useful idiot of the left...sleep well coward.


----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> It's interesting, you don't actually seem opposed to the withdraw.
> 
> Anyway I'm not a military expert so hopefully some of the other posters will weigh in.  But weren't we were already bombing everything the satellite photos showed us for the past 20 years? I.e. I'm not sure that threat carries much weight. Likewise, as to the B-1's and Stealth bombers... I don't know how well that works against gorilla warfare attacks like the Taliban utilized?
> 
> That said... I'm with you on the orderly withdrawal part as my insides are telling me this is going to end US Embassy in Tehran bad.


Should have gone it alone in Tora Bora, killed bin Laden, and been withdrawn by Christmas 2001. 

Instead we end up with a deadly and completely disgraceful goat screw by a senile old f*ck propped up by the left and their useful idiot enablers like @dad4  and his so-called "conservative" ilk.

Yep, you completely missed the point regarding the obvious and significant threat from air strikes... Not only did the Taliban mass their forces to roll through the entire country in less than a week and maintain it, they would need every bit of infrastructure in Afghanistan for their future survival... A target rich environment to say the least.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> A couple years back I drove highway M41 along the northern Afghan/Tajik boarder from Duschambe to Khorugh while driving the silk road. So I'm familiar with the terrain. There is no comparable landscape in the US, but as you cross central Asia up into the Hindu Kush all the way out to Kathmandu there are tall mountains, grassy steps and gigantic temperate valleys protected by enormous and steep slopes covered in what looks like chaparral. And like most cities in central Asia I'd guess Kabul and Bagram are both located in valleys and would have year round air service in the wintertime.
> 
> And while I realize this is the internet and anyone can say anything; but from what I saw you'd have a hard time convincing me that a winter air retreat was the "riskier" option.



Sounds like  a great trip.  

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  What I'm telling you is that a winter withdrawal presents more problem sets to work through. We are going down a rabbit hole. Strategic airlift isn't normally hampered by weather.  Tactical assets routinely are .  There are plenty of days from NOV-APR that hamper the ability to: fly medevac, fly CAS, Drones, etc.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 1, 2021)

met61 said:


> Should have gone it alone in Tora Bora, killed bin Laden, and been withdrawn by Christmas 2001.
> 
> Instead we end up with a deadly and completely disgraceful goat screw by a senile old f*ck propped up by the left and their useful idiot enablers like @dad4  and his so-called "conservative" ilk.
> 
> Yep, you completely missed the point regarding the obvious and significant threat from air strikes... Not only did the Taliban mass their forces to roll through the entire country in less than a week and maintain it, they would need every bit of infrastructure in Afghanistan for their future survival... A target rich environment to say the least.


Why no anger at the guy who released the Talib commanders?   Doesn't he get a least some of your vitriol?  Seems like letting them out of jail isn't looking so smart these days, either.


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2021)




----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Why no anger at the guy who released the Talib commanders?   Doesn't he get a least some of your vitriol?  Seems like letting them out of jail isn't looking so smart these days, either.


Looks like Daddy continues to lives rent free in someone's empty head...


----------



## espola (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Why no anger at the guy who released the Talib commanders?   Doesn't he get a least some of your vitriol?  Seems like letting them out of jail isn't looking so smart these days, either.


“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge.

-- Dickens, 1843


----------



## met61 (Sep 1, 2021)

For all the Biden tools...









						US military had drone lock on Kabul suicide bomber, didn't take the shot: former official
					

"A Predator drone had a lock on him," and the DOD "refused to grant permission to fire upon that bomber," Pardo-Maurer said.




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

tenacious said:


> It's interesting, you don't actually seem opposed to the withdraw.
> 
> Anyway I'm not a military expert so hopefully some of the other posters will weigh in.  But weren't we were already bombing everything the satellite photos showed us for the past 20 years? I.e. I'm not sure that threat carries much weight. Likewise, as to the* B-1's and Stealth bombers.*.. I don't know how well that works against gorilla warfare attacks like the Taliban utilized?
> 
> That said... I'm with you on the orderly withdrawal part as my insides are telling me this is going to end US Embassy in Tehran bad.


Add the old and steady B-52 to the steady diet of B1s and B2 and that's how we initially displaced/defeated the Taliban.  Troops in the open.  Not finishing Tora Bora and staying to build schools led us to where we are today.  We didn't go there initially to fight an insurgency.  We created an insurgency that had greater political will - we never stood a chance.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

met61 said:


> For all the Biden tools...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fuzzy article.  Unlikely the drone was going to let loose a hellfire in that environment.  Did those manning the checkpoint know is the better question.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Why no anger at the guy who released the Talib commanders?   Doesn't he get a least some of your vitriol?  Seems like letting them out of jail isn't looking so smart these days, either.


Might as well through in 44 while you are at it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 1, 2021)

dad4 said:


> Why no anger at the guy who released the Talib commanders?   Doesn't he get a least some of your vitriol?  Seems like letting them out of jail isn't looking so smart these days, either.


5,000 released


----------



## espola (Sep 2, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Might as well through in 44 while you are at it.


And 43.

And why isn't Dick  Cheney in jail by now?


----------



## crush (Sep 2, 2021)

espola said:


> And 43.
> 
> And why isn't Dick  Cheney in jail by now?




Espola, panic has set in on you bro.  You should ask your new favorite Republican Liz where her dad Dick is.  I know where Rummy is.  It's obvious you and your crew made the wrong call because your panicking.  Don't feel bad, it happens to the best of us.  I remember 4-5 years ago after me and my kid were lied to by a fraudster scammer in youth soccer who went around lying all day for a living and saying this and that so he could get him some.  Oh boy, did I panic and try to get the fuck out.  It felt like someone threw "eggs over easy" in my face and I had to walk around Silver Lakes with egg on my face.  I shared deeply and from the heart and even went around sharing with dear old pals and they were so nice to me.  I am super open & honest with my feelings.  The good, bad & ugly too.  No holding back with Crush.  It actually helps me to clean the inside and get it all out.  Try it sometime.  I also came here 3 years ago for love & support and that didnt go so well.  I realized I walked into the bee hive of elitism without a bee suit.  Yes, I got stung a few times by you and your elitist crew and all made fun of me by calling me names like moron, idiot, damn fool, club hopper, t supporter and so many other lovely names.  Yesterday you called me another name about being anti-vaxxer.  Do you see a pattern yet?  Now were all sitting around and waiting for the big shoe to drop.  I have no panic at all in my mind, body & soul.  I made the right call


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 2, 2021)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-taliban/


----------



## crush (Sep 2, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-taliban/


Blame it on the T......


----------



## crush (Sep 2, 2021)

Cut & Run dudes.  "Don't forget about me" says the guy in the middle.  Look at those smiles.


----------



## met61 (Sep 2, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> 5,000 released


You voted for a senile old f*ck... you have no cred.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 2, 2021)

espola said:


> And 43.
> 
> *And why isn't Dick  Cheney in jail by now?*


 Because the shooting was an "accident"


----------



## espola (Sep 2, 2021)

what-happened said:


> Because the shooting was an "accident"


That's not the crime in question.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 2, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-taliban/


“I had only one alternative,” he said, “to send thousands more troops back into Afghanistan to fight a war that we had already won, relative to the reason why we went in the first place.”-Biden

Biden is 100% nonsensical.  Likely not his fault, he's having  a hard time communicating clearly and is likely not understanding what he's being told.

The trump deal wasn't great but neither is the current environment.  In many ways, the current relationship with the Taliban is worse. We have zero leverage.  We have to negotiate with them for the transfer/release of remaining US Citizens and SIV vetted Afghans.  The Taliban is under an international microscope in Kabul but free to be the Taliban in the rest of the country.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 2, 2021)

espola said:


> That's not the crime in question.


what crime did he commit?


----------



## met61 (Sep 2, 2021)

what-happened said:


> what crime did he commit?


@espola is the resident d-bag...



> "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."                                  ~Mark Twain


----------



## espola (Sep 2, 2021)

what-happened said:


> what crime did he commit?


Better writers than me can answer that question.

I googled "Cheney's crimes" and google returned 10,400,000 results.  Here is the first one.





__





						Remembering Why Americans Loathe Dick Cheney
					

As the former vice-president releases his memoir, it's useful to recall the many reasons Americans disapproved of his tenure.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




You can either read that, or place your head back in the sand.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 2, 2021)

espola said:


> Better writers than me can answer that question.
> 
> I googled "Cheney's crimes" and google returned 10,400,000 results.  Here is the first one.
> 
> ...


And you are assuming I'm cheney fan?  Why?  Lump him in with other politicians and senior pentagon leaders who've worked hard for 20 years to profit on the backs of our servicemen and women.  Cheney and Hillary should share a cell.  Throw in Clapper, Rumsfeld, Powell.


----------



## espola (Sep 2, 2021)

what-happened said:


> And you are assuming I'm cheney fan?  Why?  Lump him in with other politicians and senior pentagon leaders who've worked hard for 20 years to profit on the backs of our servicemen and women.  Cheney and Hillary should share a cell.  Throw in Clapper, Rumsfeld, Powell.


I agree.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 2, 2021)

Excerpts of call between Joe Biden and Ashraf Ghani July 23
					

U.S. President Joe Biden and Afghanistan President Ashraf Ghani spoke by phone July 23. Here are excerpts from that call, based on a transcript and recording reviewed by Reuters:




					www.reuters.com
				




Make what you will of it.  Would be nice to have transcripts between the principles and their afghani counterparts.  

Reads very much like: do this, make it seem like that, and I'll give you this, maybe but we will see.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 2, 2021)

So Biden okayed the use of drones to assess storm damage . . . cue the privacy rights advocates.


----------



## espola (Sep 2, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So Biden okayed the use of drones to assess storm damage . . . cue the privacy rights advocates.


Next step -- sending killer drones out to shoot looters.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 3, 2021)

espola said:


> Next step -- sending killer drones out to shoot looters.


“Oh that’s okay unless they are targeting  good ole boys out looking for firearms and ammunition! They got rights!”


----------



## tenacious (Sep 3, 2021)

met61 said:


> @espola is the resident d-bag...


Idk in my experience it's more fun in here if you put the posters who bug you on ignore and just keep it to policy talk. Mostly because politics is a tinder box these days, and the name calling just degenerates the convo to memes (we've all see before) and internet trolling.

So... did you read that David Brooks article I posted in the Union thread? I thought he had a good point that the false bravado of the Trump crowd was really a reaction to coastal elites control over culture and money. And in that context, someone like you met61 (who is probably not too bad a guy in real life), is turned into the angry and verbose Trump supporter. Because you're stuck paying into a system that doesn't seem to like you.

But seeing that you don't actually have ideas or plans you're advancing to change this other than memes and voting for Trump so you can listen to him call people names, I would suggest that your problem is the same as mine; both the parties are just offering different flavors of crazy. Which is why I'm supporting moderates candidates from here on out. They are the only ones offering any semblance of competency over crazy.


----------



## crush (Sep 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> *Idk in my experience it's more fun in here if you put the posters who bug you on ignore*


The truth hurts and bugs many people.


----------



## met61 (Sep 3, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Idk in my experience it's more fun in here if you put the posters who bug you on ignore and just keep it to policy talk. Mostly because politics is a tinder box these days, and the name calling just degenerates the convo to memes (we've all see before) and internet trolling.
> 
> So... did you read that David Brooks article I posted in the Union thread? I thought he had a good point that the false bravado of the Trump crowd was really a reaction to coastal elites control over culture and money. And in that context, someone like you met61 (who is probably not too bad a guy in real life), is turned into the angry and verbose Trump supporter. Because you're stuck paying into a system that doesn't seem to like you.
> 
> But seeing that you don't actually have ideas or plans you're advancing to change this other than memes and voting for Trump so you can listen to him call people names, I would suggest that your problem is the same as mine; both the parties are just offering different flavors of crazy. Which is why I'm supporting moderates candidates from here on out. They are the only ones offering any semblance of competency over crazy.


You've never met me, so spare me the psychoanalysis...you're in a soccer forum spending a telling amount of time and energy producing numerous lengthy word salads thinking you are an Oracle for change and thinking you are convincing others besides yourself.

No need to read Brooks to know what it says..."Orange Man Bad" while broad brushing 76+mil citizens of all races he's never met with all the usual "ists" and "isms"...same old tired and boring pablum.

So, your depth and seriousness is... "but, mean words and tweets"...and in a soccer forum, no less... I'd say ridicule and old memes are about right.

Here, I'll play along...maybe try something beyond the tabloid personality drivel such as...I don't know, results and accomplishments along with their impact on your family and community.





__





						Trump Administration Accomplishments – The White House
					






					trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov
				




BTW, how about those PSG acquisitions?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 3, 2021)

met61 said:


> You've never met me, so spare me the psychoanalysis...you're in a soccer forum spending a telling amount of time and energy producing numerous lengthy word salads thinking you are an Oracle for change and thinking you are convincing others besides yourself.
> 
> No need to read Brooks to know what it says..."Orange Man Bad" while broad brushing 76+mil citizens of all races he's never met with all the usual "ists" and "isms"...same old tired and boring pablum.
> 
> ...


Dang bro... you're sure wound up tight. Even for a trumper. And here I thought you were coming in for a little friendly banter on a youth soccer forum- so you appreciate my surprise at how that turned into you lecturing me on how your too good to be talking to someone like me. 

Anyway I was just trying to find something to get the conversation rolling. You don't have to like my stuff, but do you have a thought or idea you'd like to share? I've got my fingers crossed that there is more to this you to sitting around in here policing everyone else's conversations with all that bluster about how smart you are and links to other peoples thoughts on why you like Trump...  lol


----------



## met61 (Sep 4, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Dang bro... you're sure wound up tight. Even for a trumper. And here I thought you were coming in for a little friendly banter on a youth soccer forum- so you appreciate my surprise at how that turned into you lecturing me on how your too good to be talking to someone like me.
> 
> Anyway I was just trying to find something to get the conversation rolling. You don't have to like my stuff, but do you have a thought or idea you'd like to share? I've got my fingers crossed that there is more to this you to sitting around in here policing everyone else's conversations with all that bluster about how smart you are and links to other peoples thoughts on why you like Trump...  lol


...yawn.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 7, 2021)

met61 said:


> ...yawn.


haha... exactly.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 7, 2021)

It's going to be interesting how this whole abortion thing shakes out. I know there is big money to be fundraised off abortion politics, but my read as a human living in America... is that most people quietly supported the status quo.

Despite being a moderate myself, and having always had a respect for Susan Colleens... she should have bucked her party on voting for Kavanaugh. Which is why I would say it's time for her to retire? Same with any moderates in the House who will vote for the $3.5 Bernie Bill in hopes of fending off a socialist primary challenger... talk about a bunch of whimps. 









						Abortion fight adds to Biden’s growing policy backlog
					

Biden needs Congress to protect abortion rights, just as he needs their help with much of his domestic agenda.




					www.politico.com


----------



## met61 (Sep 7, 2021)

tenacious said:


> It's going to be interesting how this whole abortion thing shakes out. I know there is big money to be fundraised off abortion politics, but my read as a human living in America... is that most people quietly supported the status quo.
> 
> Despite being a moderate myself, and having always had a respect for Susan Colleens... she should have bucked her party on voting for Kavanaugh. Which is why I would say it's time for her to retire? Same with any moderates in the House who will vote for the $3.5 Bernie Bill in hopes of fending off a socialist primary challenger... talk about a bunch of whimps.
> 
> ...


Translation: "I'm a spinless tool of the left...and, I'm with Jeb!"


----------



## tenacious (Sep 7, 2021)

met61 said:


> Translation: "I'm a spinless tool of the left...and, I'm with Jeb!"


So you like the authoritarian types like Trump and Warren? Hmm... Idk. Those folks always set alarm bells ringing in my head. I'm 'merican and I like my freedom- so in fairness I'll probably never see eye to eye with the micromanagers of the world.  To me as voters we are the 'hot girl' that all the politicians wants. And as such, it's to our advantage to keep our options open each time an election rolls around... as we are actually able to tell them what we want and they will respond if they think they have a chance for our vote.


----------



## met61 (Sep 7, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So you like the authoritarian types like Trump and Warren? Hmm... Idk. Those folks always set alarm bells ringing in my head. I'm 'merican and I like my freedom- so in fairness I'll probably never see eye to eye with the micromanagers of the world.  To me as voters we are the 'hot girl' that all the politicians wants. And as such, it's to our advantage to keep our options open each time an election rolls around... as we are actually able to tell them what we want and they will respond if they think they have a chance for our vote.


From the list of Trump's accomplishments and policies...what are the top three you take issue with?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 8, 2021)

met61 said:


> From the list of Trump's accomplishments and policies...what are the top three you take issue with?


This is a little off topic, but I was reading the other day about how Harris's advisors were upset with her that she hadn't told Biden 'no' when he put her in charge of the boarder. Which made me think of Jared Kushner... and what he must have thought when Trump tapped him to fix the middle east. So far... with that peace accord between the Saudis and Israelis... I think you've got to give that one to Kushner.  Which brings me back to Trump. He was very good and finding and empowering competent people. That to me was his greatest strength. 

Now as to what I didn't like about his policy, I'm not going to bother looking up specific bills or anything but I'd start with 1_tax cuts that were more generous to the wealthy (paid for by debt) I would say is a mistake. 2_his environmental policies (opening public land / anti clean energy) and trying to roll back California smog standards on cars (anyone alive in the 80's remembers).  3_finally stacking the courts with a bunch of 'conservative' judges to win votes from the Christian evangelical voters in the south is turning out to looking highly questionable to me.   

Now it's your turn, what are three things you like about Biden?


----------



## met61 (Sep 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> This is a little off topic, but I was reading the other day about how Harris's advisors were upset with her that she hadn't told Biden 'no' when he put her in charge of the boarder. Which made me think of Jared Kushner... and what he must have thought when Trump tapped him to fix the middle east. So far... with that peace accord between the Saudis and Israelis... I think you've got to give that one to Kushner.  Which brings me back to Trump. He was very good and finding and empowering competent people. That to me was his greatest strength.
> 
> Now as to what I didn't like about his policy, I'm not going to bother looking up specific bills or anything but I'd start with 1_tax cuts that were more generous to the wealthy (paid for by debt) I would say is a mistake. 2_his environmental policies (opening public land / anti clean energy) and trying to roll back California smog standards on cars (anyone alive in the 80's remembers).  3_finally stacking the courts with a bunch of 'conservative' judges to win votes from the Christian evangelical voters in the south is turning out to looking highly questionable to me.
> 
> Now it's your turn, what are three things you like about Biden?


LOL! Come on, you don't have to be honest with me... but be honest with yourself...as if there is anything to like other than... "at least he's not DT!"

Seriously, although I appreciate your efforts at a rational conversation...there is nothing rational or logical about anyone who knowingly and willingly supported and elected a senile old man...I refuse to pretend otherwise.

Don't feel bad, you're not alone...TDS broke a lot of otherwise rational people.


----------



## espola (Sep 8, 2021)

met61 said:


> LOL! Come on, you don't have to be honest with me... but be honest with yourself...as if there is anything to like other than... "at least he's not DT!"
> 
> Seriously, although I appreciate your efforts at a rational conversation...there is nothing rational or logical about anyone who knowingly and willingly supported and elected a senile old man...I refuse to pretend otherwise.
> 
> Don't feel bad, you're not alone...TDS broke a lot of otherwise rational people.


Not all of us old people are senile.

On another note -- "better than t" was given by Grace as a reason to like DeSantis.


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> trying to roll back California smog standards


On this one you misremember a bit or a lot. I won't bother with the other ones. 

The problem with the CA standards is that they have become the defacto standard for the nation. In other words that market is large enough where car makers just go with those standards. 

The issue was and is, does one state get to set national standards. The answer should be no. And that is what the fight was about. 

Now the press didn't frame it as such, nor did they go into any explanation of what was actually happening. They just went with Trump is trying to tell CA it can or cannot do this...when in reality the issue was far more complicated.


----------



## espola (Sep 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> On this one you misremember a bit or a lot. I won't bother with the other ones.
> 
> The problem with the CA standards is that they have become the defacto standard for the nation. In other words that market is large enough where car makers just go with those standards.
> 
> ...


What is wrong with the California standards?


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 8, 2021)

Biden under 40% for the first time in a poll.  Most likely a blip, but the case can be made that he lacks the Obama/Trump walk over glass to support base and if so there's more downside still potentially there.



			https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/hlzpfslijb/econTabReport.pdf


----------



## tenacious (Sep 8, 2021)

met61 said:


> LOL! Come on, you don't have to be honest with me... but be honest with yourself...as if there is anything to like other than... "at least he's not DT!"
> 
> Seriously, although I appreciate your efforts at a rational conversation...there is nothing rational or logical about anyone who knowingly and willingly supported and elected a senile old man...I refuse to pretend otherwise.
> 
> Don't feel bad, you're not alone...TDS broke a lot of otherwise rational people.


Hey if you want to hitch your wagon to the orange one then I'm happy you've found a candidate that you like. At this point I disagree, but I'm going to wait and see how things go. In the end I know all of the just want to f' me, but I'm going to make them kiss me before they do. 

As for the rest of your post. To me holding up the guy who made his whole staff publicly pretend his inauguration crowd was biggest in history (photos of the actual crowd be damned), and still can't admit he lost the election (let alone why) as a beacon of sanity... just doesn't pass the smell test. Also imagine the fuss if Trump lost twice to Biden! It would be so decisive for the moral of country. Trump might be the only person on earth the Republican's could run who Biden could beat at this point? But ugh.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hey if you want to hitch your wagon to the orange one then I'm happy you've found a candidate that you like. At this point I disagree, but I'm going to wait and see how things go. In the end I know all of the just want to f' me, but I'm going to make them kiss me before they do.
> 
> As for the rest of your post. To me holding up the guy who made his whole staff publicly pretend his inauguration crowd was biggest in history (photos of the actual crowd be damned), and still can't admit he lost the election (let alone why) as a beacon of sanity... just doesn't pass the smell test. Also imagine the fuss if Trump lost twice to Biden! It would be so decisive for the moral of country. Trump might be the only person on earth the Republican's could run who Biden could beat at this point? But ugh.


there's a lot true in your post but you can't seriously believe Biden will run in 3 years?  At this point, I wouldn't bet more than 20 dollars that he'd make it to the midterms.


----------



## Multi Sport (Sep 8, 2021)

"It's all across the country, you know, the members of Congress know from their colleagues in Congress that uh, you know, it looks like a tornado, they don't call 'em that anymore, that hit the crops and wetlands in the middle of the country in Iowa and Nevada and I mean, it's just across the board. And uh, you know um, as I said, we're in this together."

Our Commander in Chief..


----------



## met61 (Sep 8, 2021)

espola said:


> Not all of us old people are senile.
> 
> On another note -- "better than t" was given by Grace as a reason to like DeSantis.


Correct...but this one clearly is, and you knew it. I don't blame Biden, just the fools who pretend otherwise.

...and why should I care what Grace thinks?


----------



## met61 (Sep 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Hey if you want to hitch your wagon to the orange one then I'm happy you've found a candidate that you like. At this point I disagree, but I'm going to wait and see how things go. In the end I know all of the just want to f' me, but I'm going to make them kiss me before they do.
> 
> As for the rest of your post. To me holding up the guy who made his whole staff publicly pretend his inauguration crowd was biggest in history (photos of the actual crowd be damned), and still can't admit he lost the election (let alone why) as a beacon of sanity... just doesn't pass the smell test. Also imagine the fuss if Trump lost twice to Biden! It would be so decisive for the moral of country. Trump might be the only person on earth the Republican's could run who Biden could beat at this point? But ugh.


Translation: TDS.


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 8, 2021)

espola said:


> What is wrong with the California standards?


California shouldnt be the one to de facto set national standards. 

If we are going to have national standards it should be done at the federal level. 

For arguments sake I am sure there would be many things you wouldn't like if Texas did them and it became the de facto standard. You would rightly say it should be done at the federal level. 

Or does that logic escape you?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> California shouldnt be the one to de facto set national standards.
> 
> If we are going to have national standards it should be done at the federal level.
> 
> ...


Idk... the states license and register the vehicles, and they pay for most of the road repair. So it's a bit of a stretch to say the feds are in charge of automobiles emissions within the boarders of any given state.  

More over, it doesn't make any sense to manage vehicle standards at the national level. Returning to the 80's the emissions standards for the rest of the country plainly was not working in Los Angeles.


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 8, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Idk... the states license and register the vehicles, and they pay for most of the road repair. So it's a bit of a stretch to say the feds are in charge of automobiles emissions within the boarders of any given state.
> 
> More over, it doesn't make any sense to manage vehicle standards at the national level. Returning to the 80's the emissions standards for the rest of the country plainly was not working in Los Angeles.


If I have time I will send you over some articles talking about this so you can understand what the actual issue was/is. 

Not to be harsh, but I can tell you are not up to speed on the issue and what the issues where. An example is your statement saying returning to 80s standards. That is so far off base as to be....well you know. Nobody was talking about that or anything close.


----------



## espola (Sep 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> California shouldnt be the one to de facto set national standards.
> 
> If we are going to have national standards it should be done at the federal level.
> 
> ...


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## espola (Sep 8, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Biden under 40% for the first time in a poll.  Most likely a blip, but the case can be made that he lacks the Obama/Trump walk over glass to support base and if so there's more downside still potentially there.
> 
> 
> 
> https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/hlzpfslijb/econTabReport.pdf


What is "the Obama/Trump walk over glass to support base"?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 8, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> If I have time I will send you over some articles talking about this so you can understand what the actual issue was/is.
> 
> Not to be harsh, but I can tell you are not up to speed on the issue and what the issues where. An example is your statement saying returning to 80s standards. That is so far off base as to be....well you know. Nobody was talking about that or anything close.


Feel free to say whatever you want, it doesn't bother me if you're harsh. As long as folks got a point and I don't have to read through a bunch of adult pouting... it's all good with me.

As to the rest, feel free to post any links you like.  Again let me point out that states pay for most of the roads and register/license the vehicles... and per states rights they have the authority per my (admittedly iffy) reading of the Constitution.

But setting all that aside, you see the type of yahoo's that are getting elected to national office these days. And we all know deep down where we might not want to admit it that both sides have gone bat-shite crazy. So my two cents is I'd rather have someone local running energy policy that can be recalled... and keep the angry partisans looking to get their faces on TV away from the controls.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 10, 2021)

I don't necessary agree with L Cheney's politics... but I sure like her spunk. 









						'Bring it': Cheney responds to Trump's endorsement in Wyoming primary
					

Liz Cheney responds to Trump endorsement of Hageman: "Here's a sound bite for you: Bring it."




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> there's a lot true in your post but you can't seriously believe Biden will run in 3 years?  At this point, I wouldn't bet more than 20 dollars that he'd make it to the midterms.


At this point I don't see an Dem alternative to Biden who is competent, nationally viable and also checks all the right boxes as far as culture background / personal history? At least off the top of my head I can't think of anyone...

So the lack of a plan B seemingly means Dems are tied to him and going to have to prop him up as long as possible.


----------



## crush (Sep 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I don't necessary agree with L Cheney's politics... but I sure like her spunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She learned all her spunk from her dad Dick.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 10, 2021)

tenacious said:


> At this point I don't see an Dem alternative to Biden who is competent, nationally viable and also checks all the right boxes as far as culture background / personal history? At least off the top of my head I can't think of anyone...
> 
> So the lack of a plan B seemingly means Dems are tied to him and going to have to prop him up as long as possible.


Kind of like “weekend at bernies”?  I liked that movie as a kid.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 10, 2021)

Grace T. said:


> Kind of like “weekend at bernies”?  I liked that movie as a kid.


Well maybe more Weekend at Camp David. But yeah, you get the idea.


----------



## crush (Sep 10, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 11, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well maybe more Weekend at Camp David. But yeah, you get the idea.


He wasn’t somewhere cheating at golf?


----------



## crush (Sep 12, 2021)




----------



## what-happened (Sep 12, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> He wasn’t somewhere cheating at golf?


I wish frail in chief could rememer how to play golf.


----------



## espola (Sep 13, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I wish frail in chief could rememer how to play golf.


I'll bet he can write in complete sentences.


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## Hüsker Dü (Sep 13, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I wish frail in chief could rememer how to play golf.


Image is everything for you people, reality be damned.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 13, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Image is everything for you people, reality be damned.


who is "you" people?  Do you realize what you jus said?


----------



## what-happened (Sep 13, 2021)

espola said:


> I'll bet he can write in complete sentences.


I bet he can't


----------



## met61 (Sep 13, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436867749226205185


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 13, 2021)

what-happened said:


> who is "you" people?  Do you realize what you jus said?


“You people” is you, the aggrieved, the whiny, the shallow and uncooperative.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 13, 2021)

what-happened said:


> I bet he can't


Then think about how shitty the candidate he beat must have been.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 13, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “You people” is you, the aggrieved, the whiny, the shallow and uncooperative.


you must be talking about the vaccine.


----------



## what-happened (Sep 13, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Then think about how shitty the candidate he beat must have been.


The sad state of affairs of your beloved politiks.


----------



## met61 (Sep 13, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Then think about how shitty the candidate he beat must have been.


"he beat" ROFLMAO...fake news!


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 13, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436964665809121280


----------



## met61 (Sep 13, 2021)

F Joe Biden protest on Brooklyn Bridge…
					

Footage is from the last few hours             Here are a few more highlights from this weekend                     &…




					citizenfreepress.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 14, 2021)

So I'm trying to get my head around the socialists plan to raise taxes. Looks like the millionaires are going to get a tax hit... but the billionaires $$$ are safe. Given the far lefts reliance on positive press from media companies owned by those same billionaires, I can't say this is all that I find it all that surprising.

Speaking of billionaires, did anyone see AOC's getup at the Met gala? lol socialists and billionaires partying together... who would have thunk that could be a thing?









						Rich Americans would dodge Biden's proposed capital gains tax hike, study says
					

President Biden has called for nearly doubling the capital gains tax rate in order to fund his ambitious $1.8 trillion spending proposal, but a new analysis suggests that 90% of wealthy investors would sidestep the higher levy.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## crush (Sep 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So I'm trying to get my head around the socialists plan to raise taxes. Looks like the millionaires are going to get a tax hit... but the billionaires $$$ are safe. Given the far lefts reliance on positive press from media companies owned by those same billionaires, I can't say this is all that I find it all that surprising.
> 
> Speaking of billionaires, did anyone see AOC's getup at the Met gala? lol socialists and billionaires partying together... who would have thunk that could be a thing?
> 
> ...


Do you now see the light?


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> So I'm trying to get my head around the socialists plan to raise taxes. Looks like the millionaires are going to get a tax hit... but the billionaires $$$ are safe. Given the far lefts reliance on positive press from media companies owned by those same billionaires, I can't say this is all that I find it all that surprising.
> 
> Speaking of billionaires, did anyone see AOC's getup at the Met gala? lol socialists and billionaires partying together... who would have thunk that could be a thing?
> 
> ...


The lack of self awareness. 
AOC is wearing that stupid dress that says tax the rich at an event she is attending that costs 30k to attend.


----------



## espola (Sep 14, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> The lack of self awareness.
> AOC is wearing that stupid dress that says tax the rich at an event she is attending that costs 30k to attend.


She was completely aware of what she was doing -- got free tickets to a rich man's event, then used the opportunity to insult them in public.

If you are rich enough that it matters to you, what are you hanging around this dump for?  Shouldn't you be in a group discussing the best sources of caviar?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 14, 2021)

espola said:


> She was completely aware of what she was doing -- got free tickets to a rich man's event, then used the opportunity to insult them in public.
> 
> If you are rich enough that it matters to you, what are you hanging around this dump for?  Shouldn't you be in a group discussing the best sources of caviar?


Actually I would say she's at the Met Galla getting ready to run against Chuck Schummer for his senate seat and is going to need money and powerful allies. That's fairly transparent NY City politics.

The real question is what the uber rich are going to get in return if they support her?


----------



## espola (Sep 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Actually I would say she's at the Met Galla getting ready to run against Chuck Schummer for his senate seat and is going to need money and powerful allies. That's fairly transparent NY City politics.
> 
> The real question is what the uber rich are going to get in return if they support her?


 Is Schumer retiring?


----------



## tenacious (Sep 14, 2021)

espola said:


> Is Schumer retiring?


Well... since the Met isn't in her district and has a huge endowment it doesn't strike me as plausible that she was there to raise money for the museum. 

So perhaps as you suggest she just was in the mood for a publicity stunt to stick it to the rich by attending their dance party with some hastily written script added to her ball gown? But to me, a more believable explanation is she was there to advance her political career as politicians traditionally do at the Gala Which brings me back to wondering what sort of help a socialist might expect from the New York socialites and power brokers.  It's like seeing a klan member hanging with the black panthers... it don't make no sense. There has to be more to the story.


----------



## espola (Sep 14, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Well... since the Met isn't in her district and has a huge endowment it doesn't strike me as plausible that she was there to raise money for the museum.
> 
> So perhaps as you suggest she just was in the mood for a publicity stunt to stick it to the rich by attending their dance party with some hastily written script added to her ball gown? But to me, a more believable explanation is she was there to advance her political career as politicians traditionally do at the Gala Which brings me back to wondering what sort of help a socialist might expect from the New York socialites and power brokers.  It's like seeing a klan member hanging with the black panthers... it don't make no sense. There has to be more to the story.


AOC could ride that Congressional seat all the way to retirement.  She was elected because she was a local, and now that the voters in her district can see that she has NY sass, they'll send her back forever, easily.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 14, 2021)

espola said:


> AOC could ride that Congressional seat all the way to retirement.  She was elected because she was a local, and now that the voters in her district can see that she has NY sass, they'll send her back forever, easily.


Idk... she's been pretty open about wanting to run for Schumers senate seat, and threatening that it would be sooner rather than later if he's not progressive enough with his leadership roll in the Senate. But don't take my word for it E, if you're interested it's easy enough to look up and read her saying it in her own words.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 15, 2021)

Well I went looking for some balanced reporting on the Congressional hearings on Biden's Afghanistan disaster, on non-Murdock owned news, and it's sure hard to find much coverage. Gotta to think people are interested in what went wrong, but looks like the mainstream media is ready to move on.









						How 9/11 shaped Joe Biden’s approach to the politics of national tragedy
					

A moment of chaos turned into a frantic attempt to address the nation, and gave the public a hint of how Biden would operate in the Oval Office.




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 15, 2021)

Although I will say after spending the morning on left leaning sites I do think it's fair to say it's not all one-sided news coverage where conservatives are bad and liberals are good. Not widely covered, but take this story on Pramila Jayapal's treatment of her staff. Yikes... 









						She’s One Of Congress’s Leading Progressives — Just Not In Her Own Office, Staffers Say
					

Former staffers who worked for Rep. Pramila Jayapal, a House Democrat who built her reputation on being a champion of workers, say her treatment of her staff was often inconsistent with her public image.




					www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Sep 15, 2021)

espola said:


> AOC could ride that Congressional seat all the way to retirement.  She was elected because she was a local, and now that the voters in her district can see that she has NY sass, they'll send her back forever, easily.


Pelosi summed up her win in her district as this. 

She said paraphrasing... you could put a D on a glass of water and voters in that district would vote for it.


----------



## crush (Sep 18, 2021)




----------



## crush (Sep 18, 2021)

Espola & Husker Du, EOTL, Golden Gate and the rest of them all voted for this guy to ruin our kids lives and our country.  Thanks for nothing you guys. Clean up on aisle 17...... yuck you guys!!  Seriously Dad of 4 kids?


----------



## crush (Sep 22, 2021)




----------



## tenacious (Sep 22, 2021)

This should be an interesting vote lol. Progressives having arrived to the party with a half finished plan to spend $3.5 trillion; while packing zero leverage or mandate are now seemingly posturing as though they are willing to blowing up the bi-partisan infrastructure bill if their demands aren't meet.

Color me skeptical, but I'm having a little trouble seeing how this doesn't end badly for them. Especially when it comes time for primary season. Regardless of what happens.









						WHIP LIST: How House Democrats, Republicans say they’ll vote on infrastructure bill
					

House Democratic leaders are vowing to follow through with a pledge to moderate lawmakers to vote on the Senate-passed bipartisan infrastructure bill — but they risk going to the floor without enou…




					thehill.com


----------



## crush (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## N00B (Sep 23, 2021)

espola said:


> Is Schumer retiring?


No, but maybe getting a challenger from the same party with more progressive views.


----------



## N00B (Sep 23, 2021)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Image is everything for you people, reality be damned.


Thanks for your input Ross ‘you people’ Perot.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Sep 24, 2021)

Desert Hound said:


> Pelosi summed up her win in her district as this.
> 
> She said paraphrasing... you could put a D on a glass of water and voters in that district would vote for it.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 25, 2021)

Obviously most college professors have never lived under the rule of a southern Californian HOA if they don't think liberal thinkers are capable of authoritarianism. Man a $250k degree just doesn't seem to be worth what it used too... so no wonder all the college grads want to be reimbursed by the federal government for the cost of college. 









						The Experts Somehow Overlooked Authoritarians on the Left
					

Many psychologists wrongly assumed that coercive attitudes exist only among conservatives.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## crush (Sep 25, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Obviously most college professors have never lived under the rule of a southern Californian HOA if they don't think liberal thinkers are capable of authoritarianism. Now Biden wants us to bail out the colleges, but I say he can go suck a pickle as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He and his crew have been sucking the blood out of us for a very long time.  Watch this, this might help you have a clearer idea what's been going on behind the scenes.  Do you get it, yet?  









						The Unstoppables - Nothing Can Stop What Is Coming - by Eyedrop Media
					

support creator at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/eyedropmedia  All credit to Eyedrop Media  https://eyedropmedia.com




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 27, 2021)

I've got to admit... this lady is growing on me. She probably too conservative for me to vote for... but still.









						Cheney takes shot at Trump: ‘I like Republican presidents who win re-election’
					

Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) on Sunday morning posted a tweet with a picture of former President George W. Bush that said “I like Republican presidents who win re-election” ahead of the air…




					thehill.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Sep 27, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I've got to admit... this lady is growing on me. She probably too conservative for me to vote for... but still.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These days people who still believe in the rule of law and how to act like a responsible member of a democratic society need to stick together regardless of nuance.


----------



## crush (Sep 28, 2021)

tenacious said:


> I've got to admit... this lady is growing on me. She probably too conservative for me to vote for... but still.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## crush (Sep 28, 2021)

tenacious said:


> *I've got to admit... this lady is growing on me. *


----------



## thirteenknots (Sep 29, 2021)

The more this spreads, the more vicious this Administration becomes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442140289599250443
America is waking up.

Lying only works for so long, then Gospel takes over.
Don't believe me, just wait and see.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 29, 2021)

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to see this whole mess as Biden's fault. Sort of like Jimmy Carter (is he #39?) off he went making crazy ass promises, and being naive... and it all ended up as a big mess. He's party is at war. Personally I'd rather live through the embarrassment of the democratic party once again proving themselves inept and not have to pay $5+ trillion on half written bills to learn the same lesson I could have got for free.

Hopefully when republicans take over they will run somebody who is better at this stuff then Biden or Trump have proven to be.








						Biden’s twin $4.7T spending plans on verge of collapse as Manchin, Jayapal joust
					

The nation’s top Democrats were desperately racing Wednesday to keep alive President Biden’s two signature spending plans as renegade members of their party signaled their willingness t…




					nypost.com


----------



## tenacious (Sep 29, 2021)

thirteenknots said:


> The more this spreads, the more vicious this Administration becomes.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442140289599250443
> ...


It really it getting too much.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 29, 2021)

crush said:


> View attachment 11757


What do you really think about Cheney? I would have thought she would appeal to you. I drove though Cheyenne on the freeway a few years back and there was black ice and snow in the interstate in the middle of May. It takes a tough person to live in a place like that.


----------



## tenacious (Sep 29, 2021)

tenacious said:


> It really it getting too much.


*It really is getting to be too much.
D'oh!


----------



## tenacious (Oct 2, 2021)

Welp I think I've finally hit the point where I'm going to leave the democratic party. I've been on the fence as it give me I the option of voting in the primary. But at this point if I could re-vote between Trump and Biden... I wouldn't vote for Biden. Crazy as Trump was, seems like he did less damage and did have respect for working people.  









						Progressives cheer, moderates groan as Biden visit caps chaotic week
					

After a long, chaotic week of internal clashes, House Democrats on Friday summoned the help of their biggest gun, calling President Biden to the Capitol in a high-stakes effort to cool the boiling …




					thehill.com


----------



## tenacious (Oct 2, 2021)

Speaking of respecting work. Imagine if the politicos came out for all the janitors with the same vigor. You know, and instead of fixing everyones problems for them took a track of empowering people with middle class jobs so they could purchase the correct plan for themselves instead of being dependent on Uncle Sam. 









						Political Pressure Mounting On AMPTP To Make Fair Deal With IATSE
					

Political pressure is mounting on the AMPTP to negotiate a fair deal with IATSE. In the past two days, more than 200 state and federal Democratic lawmakers have signed letters to AMPTP president Ca…




					deadline.com


----------



## crush (Oct 2, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Welp I think I've finally hit the point where I'm going to leave the democratic party. I've been on the fence as it give me I the option of voting in the primary. But at this point if I could re-vote between Trump and Biden... I wouldn't vote for Biden. Crazy as Trump was, seems like he did less damage and did have respect for working people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welp, I knew you would see the light


----------



## tenacious (Oct 5, 2021)

crush said:


> Welp, I knew you would see the light


Personally I don't I feel like either political party has the light to offer me.
But isn't this the beauty of America. If the elites box us in with stupid decisions... we've got a deep bench to draw from.









						Sinema and Cheney Are America’s Best and Bravest Politicians
					

Right or wrong, there are few politicians with the courage to choose to take positions that inspire this level of anger from erstwhile supporters.




					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Dec 12, 2021)

tenacious said:


> Welp I think I've finally hit the point where I'm going to leave the democratic party. I've been on the fence as it give me I the option of voting in the primary. But at this point if I could re-vote between Trump and Biden... I wouldn't vote for Biden. Crazy as Trump was, seems like he did less damage and did have respect for working people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The apocalypse must be upon us.. either that or I'm in an alternate universe.

Maybe of I leave for a full year I'll come back an espola eill feel the same way.


----------



## espola (Dec 12, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> The apocalypse must be upon us.. either that or I'm in an alternate universe.
> 
> Maybe of I leave for a full year I'll come back an espola eill feel the same way.


I was a registered Democrat for only about 5 years, about 50 years ago.


----------



## MicPaPa (Dec 12, 2021)

espola said:


> I was a registered Democrat for only about 5 years, about 50 years ago.


And now a registered idiot?


----------



## Multi Sport (Dec 12, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> The apocalypse must be upon us.. either that or I'm in an alternate universe.
> 
> Maybe of I leave for a full year I'll come back an espola eill feel the same way.


My turn:

*if *will


----------



## thirteenknots (Dec 13, 2021)

espola said:


> I was a registered Democrat for only about 5 years, about 50 years ago.


So what's that have to do with you displaying Socialist/Communist Ideologies daily.


*The Navy's Biggest Betrayal*
Twenty-five years ago the FBI finally shut off the biggest espionage leak in U.S. Navy history when it arrested former senior warrant officer John A. Walker.
By John Prados
June 2010

Naval History Magazine

Volume 24, Number 3
ARTICLE

To hear the United States' most notorious naval spy tell it, were it not for his ex-wife, 
Barbara-the weak link his Soviet handlers had warned him about-his espionage might
have continued. As it was, however, John Walker's ferreting went on far too long. 
A few more years and, had he been employed in a conventional job, he could have 
retired on a pension. Indeed, he already enjoyed a U.S. Navy pension after retiring 
in 1976 as a senior warrant officer.

The Navy, in which John Walker served for 20 years, was enormously damaged by his espionage. 
Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger concluded that the Soviet Union made significant 
gains in naval warfare that were attributable to Walker's spying. His espionage provided 
Moscow "access to weapons and sensor data and naval tactics, terrorist threats, and 
surface, submarine, and airborne training, readiness and tactics," according to Weinberger. 
A quarter-century after John Walker's arrest, it is illuminating to revisit the story of his naval 
spy ring, both for what it reveals about espionage versus security and for how it highlights 
he ambitions and frailties at the heart of spying. 

*Building a Naval Career*
John Anthony Walker Jr. was born in 1937, the middle son of a Warner Brothers film 
marketer and an Italian-American mother. Nicknamed "Smilin' Jack," he attended Catholic 
school and became an altar boy; however, his childhood was traumatic. His father 
descended into a hell of alcoholism and lost his job. Bankrupt, the family moved near 
the boy's grandparents in Scranton, Pennsylvania. The entrepreneurial John Jr. secured 
a paper route, sold home products door to door, and worked as a movie usher, and on 
his 16th birthday bought a car with his savings.

In late 1955 Walker joined the Navy as a radioman and served on board a destroyer escort 
before joining the crew of the aircraft carrier USS _Forrestal_ (CV-59). While on shore leave in 
Boston during the winter of 1957, he met Barbara Crowley. They married soon afterward, 
and children followed, three daughters by 1960. After qualifying at submarine school, Walker 
was assigned to the _Razorback_ (SS-394) for a Pacific deployment. While serving in her, Walker, 
then a petty officer, received his top secret cryptographic clearance and passed the
Personnel Reliability Program, a psychological evaluation to ensure that only the most reliable 
personnel have access to nuclear weapons.

One bracing fall day in October 1967 Chief Warrant Officer Walker, then assigned as a watch 
officer at Atlantic Fleet Submarine Force headquarters in Norfolk, decided to correct the 
military balance-and balance his checkbook-by leaking top secret information to Moscow. 
Taking the first step, he photocopied a document at headquarters and slipped the copy in 
his pocket. The next day he hopped into his red 1964 MG sports car, drove to Washington, 
walked into the Soviet Embassy, and asked to see security personnel.  

Yakov Lukasevics, an internal security specialist at the embassy, had no idea what to do with 
the American who came bearing documents and said he wanted to spy. The papers, however, 
needed to be evaluated, and so he telephoned the KGB _rezident_, or station chief, 
Boris A. Solomatin. KGB _rezidenturas_ (stations) were wary of walk-ins, persons who 
spontaneously offered their services. The Soviets even used the term "well-wishers" to 
denote such persons. And the idea of an American striding right into the Soviet Embassy
 in Washington, which was under constant FBI surveillance, immediately suggested a trap.

On the spot Solomatin decided to take a chance. For a KGB station chief personally to 
meet a prospective agent was unprecedented, but Solomatin spent the next two hours 
talking privately with Walker. The American favorably impressed him by saying nothing
about love for communism, which most phonies emphasized. This was strictly business. 
Walker received a few thousand dollars cash as a down payment and was smuggled off 
the embassy compound in a car. Thus began the Navy's most damaging spy case.  

Later, while on training duty at San Diego, Walker had less access to top secret documents 
and had to rely on a classified library. Smuggling out material meant getting it past multiple 
checkpoints staffed by Marine guards. He also forged the papers required to show renewal 
of his security clearance. This spy enjoyed amazingly good fortune.


----------



## thirteenknots (Dec 14, 2021)




----------



## tenacious (Dec 27, 2021)

Multi Sport said:


> The apocalypse must be upon us.. either that or I'm in an alternate universe.
> 
> Maybe of I leave for a full year I'll come back an espola eill feel the same way.


Well in my defense let me first quote Walt Witman:  
"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

That said I'm a long professed moderate, so my hands are not tied to being loyal. Same as those unnamed folks who were talking tea party fiscal conservatism and christian values and had to hitched my wagon to a pro-deficit, self-centered character like ex Pres Trump. In the end, I think we all are all trying to do the best we can with the choices we have, in what I think could aptly be called a fluid political environment.


----------



## tenacious (Dec 27, 2021)

Honestly I thought the progressives would have done better if they would have made the tough cuts themselves behind closed door- as opposed to letting the situation degrade to where Manchin publicly has to do it for them. Totally ignoring they would have likely ended up with more 'stuff' in their quest to get his blessing, it would have saved themselves loads of the type of grief and humiliation that makes folks question their competency.










						Manchin to Dems: Redo the whole thing, maybe I'll vote for it
					

The West Virginia senator wants a new bill that goes through Senate committees and focuses on rolling back the 2017 Trump tax cuts.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Dec 28, 2021)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jan 5, 2022)

It will also likely disappoint voters who want provisions in the bill signed into law. A Data for Progress analysis released on Tuesday found that over the past two months of polling, 62% of voters, on average, support Build Back Better.









						Joe Manchin says he's engaged in 'no negotiation' on Biden's agenda this year — but the majority of voters still want it passed
					

The majority of voters still support provisions like the expanded child tax credit, but Manchin has yet to revisit negotiations with Biden this year.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## tenacious (Feb 12, 2022)

Haha How dare these people! Sounds like the elites are done listening to the truck drivers. Although, personally my advise would be to avoid getting into a stare down with groups that make the, sit home and ordering 2-day items from Amazon, pajama class lifestyle possible. Especially now. Those drivers might look 'deplorable' to you, but historically speaking they have a way of coming out on top...

Truthfully after having a year to observe, if the nation were to ever build back better haha I'd prefer the teamsters to run it as opposed to Biden or the 'Squad'.









						When the Rage Came for Me
					

As a writer, I’ve explored political rage at a distance. The anti-vax trucker convoy brought it up close and personal.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

The heckling came a day after Republican leaders condemned Greene for speaking at a gathering of white nationalists in Florida over the weekend. Both Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., condemned her appearance at the America First Political Action Committee conference, which was organized by a prominent white nationalist and where attendees chanted in praise of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"It's unbecoming for a member of Congress to speak at an event that's promoted by anyone who espouses those views," said Rep. Jim Banks, R-Ind., the head of the conservative Republican Study Committee. "This is an event that no Republican should attend ... and it's unfortunate that she did."








						GOP Reps. Greene, Boebert heckle Biden throughout State of the Union address
					

Lawmakers booed Boebert when she interrupted Biden as he was about to speak of his son's death.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 4, 2022)

Biden gets a bounce after the State of the Union, NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll shows
					

After Tuesday's speech, the president saw a significant jump with Democrats and independents, as he may be seeing a rally-around-the-Ukrainian-flag moment.




					www.npr.org


----------



## tenacious (Mar 7, 2022)

Full disclosure: I'm fan of Elon Musk and his companies (so perhaps I'm biased) but if he doesn't illustrate everything that is wrong with todays democrat party. I mean we all hear Biden talking about green energy this and that, as gas and heating oil prices go through the roof. Then at the same time you've got Elizabeth Warren calling for Musk to go to jain and Biden sending out memos to the staff to avoid talking about (or helping) Tesla in the governments infrastructure programs. lol I don't want to bag on American auto, however it's hard not to notice we just had to bail GM and Ford out a few years back due to decades of mismanagement and now Biden and dems are going to put those peps in charge of the green revolution? Oy've. 

Biden can huff and puff, but in my experience big promises are a lot harder to deliver on if you're chasing the creative talent such as Elon Musk away. I'm all about going green, but people got to be able to keep their houses warm and afford gas to get to work. Suburban soccer moms might be willing to follow Greta Thunberg into putting the 'b team' in charge of rolling back the industrial revolution without regard to the consequences... but count me out of all that. 









						Elon Musk accuses the SEC of illegally leaking details of its Tesla investigation
					

Tesla CEO Elon Musk is escalating his battle with the Securities and Exchange Commission, accusing a staff member of illegally leaking the results of an investigation. Musk said the regulator is trying to "weaponize" an earlier consent decree he and Tesla signed "for illicit ends."




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola (Mar 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Full disclosure: I'm fan of Elon Musk and his companies (so perhaps I'm biased) but if he doesn't illustrate everything that is wrong with todays democrat party. I mean we all hear Biden talking about green energy this and that, as gas and heating oil prices go through the roof. Then at the same time you've got Elizabeth Warren calling for Musk to go to jain and Biden sending out memos to the staff to avoid talking about (or helping) Tesla in the governments infrastructure programs. lol I don't want to bag on American auto, however it's hard not to notice we just had to bail GM and Ford out a few years back due to decades of mismanagement and now Biden and dems are going to put those peps in charge of the green revolution? Oy've.
> 
> Biden can huff and puff, but in my experience big promises are a lot harder to deliver on if you're chasing the creative talent such as Elon Musk away. I'm all about going green, but people got to be able to keep their houses warm and afford gas to get to work. Suburban soccer moms might be willing to follow Greta Thunberg into putting the 'b team' in charge of rolling back the industrial revolution without regard to the consequences... but count me out of all that.
> 
> ...


You're right.  You're biased.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 7, 2022)

espola said:


> You're right.  You're biased.


Hey E, so what do you think about Musk? I take it you're not a fan.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> It will also likely disappoint voters who want provisions in the bill signed into law. A Data for Progress analysis released on Tuesday found that over the past two months of polling, 62% of voters, on average, support Build Back Better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course we all like build back better.   How many of us want to pay for it?

The progressive survey is like walking into a room of girl scouts and asking “who wants a pony?”

At some point, it’s time to look at all the pony poop in the living room and ask “how do we get rid of it?”


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> It will also likely disappoint voters who want provisions in the bill signed into law. A Data for Progress analysis released on Tuesday found that over the past two months of polling, 62% of voters, on average, support Build Back Better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Build
Back
Better

is NWO/WEF

Nothing more, nothing less.

1. The White Horse is The Word of God
2. The Red Horse is Warfare
3. The Black Horse is Famine
4. The Pale Horse is Death

We are on # 3.....


----------



## tenacious (Mar 7, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Of course we all like build back better.   How many of us want to pay for it?
> 
> The progressive survey is like walking into a room of girl scouts and asking “who wants a pony?”
> 
> At some point, it’s time to look at all the pony poop in the living room and ask “how do we get rid of it?”


That's it right there. Heck in theory I don't even mind paying a little more to help combat global warming. But I'm sure not into throwing my money away and ending up worse off then before likes happened to Germany.  Or on half baked ideas like the Green New Deal AOC wrote up in an afternoon. Or on Biden's half baked plan to let GM's Ivy League educated suits take the lead on fixing the nations energy problems. I mean really, Biden is going to fix the economy by asking Detroit to take the lead? Good grief.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> That's it right there. Heck in theory I don't even mind paying a little more to help combat global warming. But I'm sure not into throwing my money away and ending up worse off then before likes happened to Germany.  Or on half baked ideas like the Green New Deal AOC wrote up in an afternoon. Or on Biden's half baked plan to let GM's Ivy League educated suits take the lead on fixing the nations energy problems. I mean really, Biden is going to fix the economy by asking Detroit to take the lead? Good grief.


Obama's proposal to raise fuel economy standards would have helped.  Biden's off shore wind leases will help.

The conservative proposals to build more nuclear reactors would also be a step in the right direction.  So far, I haven't heard many politicians pick up on them, though.


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 8, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Obama's proposal to raise fuel economy standards would have helped.  Biden's off shore wind leases will help.
> 
> The conservative proposals to build more nuclear reactors would also be a step in the right direction.  So far, I haven't heard many politicians pick up on them, though.


And when you restrict output...while at the same time demand starts to rise...you get higher prices.


----------



## espola (Mar 8, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And when you restrict output...while at the same time demand starts to rise...you get higher prices.
> 
> View attachment 13082


Here's a more complicated breakdown for those with intelligence.  US crude oil production fell dramatically during the various covid economic shutdowns.  Prices fell because of a global oversupply. US producers cut back on production without any government interference.  When the world's economies started to open back up, supplies were suddenly short of demand and prices rose.

You can now supply examples of "Biden shut down our production".


----------



## dad4 (Mar 8, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And when you restrict output...while at the same time demand starts to rise...you get higher prices.
> 
> View attachment 13082


If you look carefully, the guy who made your graph has Biden’s inauguration date mislabeled by about 2 months.  It belongs below the double L in “installed.”

That’s what you get when you repost politicized garbage.  Your brain turns off.  And it shows.

Try comparing the above graph to a graph of worldwide gasoline consumption.  I bet you’ll find prices went up as travel increased.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 8, 2022)

espola said:


> Here's a more complicated breakdown for those with intelligence.  US crude oil production fell dramatically during the various covide economic shutdowns.  Prices fell because of a global oversupply. US producers cut back on production without any government interference.  When the world's economies started to open back up, supplies were suddenly short of demand and prices rose.
> 
> You can now supply examples of "Biden shut down our production".


I’m waiting to hear him explain how Biden shut down production two months before taking office.  Those will be some interesting backflips.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Obama's proposal to raise fuel economy standards would have helped.  Biden's off shore wind leases will help.
> 
> The conservative proposals to build more nuclear reactors would also be a step in the right direction.  So far, I haven't heard many politicians pick up on them, though.


I'm with you on fuel standards the wind power. That said, rather than this two steps forward one step back approach, it sure would be nice to hear an articulated REALISTIC strategy for ending out dependence on fossil fuels, that involves actually technology that exists on earth today. As opposed to the 'drill baby drill' republicans offer, or some poorly thought out democrat 'green new deal' handout.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 9, 2022)

Reality bites . . .








						Psaki Unusually Harsh in Her Slapback to Fox's Jacqui Heinrich: 'We'll Talk Tomorrow When You Learn More'
					

Fox continues its embarrassing “FAIL” in understanding how global economics works. If you possess something that can be used and sold anywhere around the globe and it’s not unique, there will be a global price. Right as this is being typed, there is a global price for gold, even U.S. dollars can...




					www.politicalflare.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 9, 2022)

PSAKI: _“Well, there are 9000 approved oil leases that the oil companies are not tapping into currently. So I would ask them that question.”_


----------



## what-happened (Mar 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> PSAKI: _“Well, there are 9000 approved oil leases that the oil companies are not tapping into currently. So I would ask them that question.”_


You do know that she's tellling a partial truth in order to lie. It's what all press secretaries do, one of the hardest jobs in the world.  I'm not an oil industry expert nor am I a geologist ---not all leases are created equal, and she knows that.  She's very good at her job, they all have to be in order to think on their feet.

But please go ahead and trust blindly in what appears to be one of the most inexperienced, incompetent teams ever assembled by a white house (except for Psaki, she's very good and carrying the water for the entire administration). 

I'm sure at some point we'll get those planes out of Poland into Ukraine via amazon.com or possibly be shuttled in one aircraft at a time by kh.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 9, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I'm with you on fuel standards the wind power. That said, rather than this two steps forward one step back approach, it sure would be nice to hear an articulated REALISTIC strategy for ending out dependence on fossil fuels, that involves actually technology that exists on earth today. As opposed to the 'drill baby drill' republicans offer, or some poorly thought out democrat 'green new deal' handout.


That’s where we’ve been for 40 years.

Democrats want to help the environment, but can’t sort good ideas from bad.  Republicans can do the calculations, but have no interest in helping the environment if it means any cost at all.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 11, 2022)

dad4 said:


> That’s where we’ve been for 40 years.
> 
> Democrats want to help the environment, but can’t sort good ideas from bad.  Republicans can do the calculations, but have no interest in helping the environment if it means any cost at all.


Realistically I think when clean green technology becomes about as cheap and easy as fossil fuels it will be a lot easier to win over the Republicans. Which brings me back to my point about Musk, and dems shooting themselves in the foot by trying to bring him down as a favor to big auto and the midwestern labor unions.

I mean, yes canceling Elon would be a huge feather is E Warren's cap, but how many electric vehicles do you suppose they sold over a GM last year?


----------



## dad4 (Mar 11, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Realistically I think when clean green technology becomes about as cheap and easy as fossil fuels it will be a lot easier to win over the Republicans. Which brings me back to my point about Musk, and dems shooting themselves in the foot by trying to bring him down as a favor to big auto and the midwestern labor unions.
> 
> I mean, yes canceling Elon would be a huge feather is E Warren's cap, but how many electric vehicles do you suppose they sold over a GM last year?


Producing more Teslas, itself, is not a great environmental benefit.  There is a lot of diesel behind every one of those 75-100 kWh batteries.  

The question isn’t how to sell more electric vehicles.  The question is how to reduce overall CO2 emissions.  Replacing Toyota Corollas with Tesla SUVs isn’t going to help.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 16, 2022)

Too bad the prez ain’t the one in charge of pricing! Lol! Gougers gonna gouge









						Biden demands faster drop in gas prices as oil tumbles
					

President Joe Biden is using his bully pulpit to call out the tendency for gasoline prices to go up like a rocket when oil spikes, but only drop like a feather when crude crashes.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## tenacious (Mar 18, 2022)

I know folks in here disagree but I'm going to say it anyway.  I was really was upset at how Biden handled the Afghanistan pull out, but so far with regard to Ukraine it feels to me that he has shown fair competent leadership against a cagey adversary. Where in Afghanistan rash decisions turned events on the ground into a debacle, here Biden is taking a slow but purposeful direction which feels to be advancing American interests without allowing ego or the base emotions to take over. (I.e. prevented the crazy people from starting a nuclear war)


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Too bad the prez ain’t the one in charge of pricing! Lol! Gougers gonna gouge
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After converting liters to gallons and pounds to dollars, the petrol price in England is over $8/gallon.  I suppose Biden is to blame for that as well.









						United Kingdom gasoline prices, 12-Dec-2022 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com
					

Gasoline prices per litre, octane-95: We show prices for United Kingdom from 05-Sep-2022 to 12-Dec-2022. The average value for United Kingdom during that period was 1.64 U.K. Pound Sterling with a minimum of 1.56 U.K. Pound Sterling on 12-Dec-2022 and a maximum of 1.69 U.K. Pound Sterling on...




					www.globalpetrolprices.com


----------



## Brav520 (Mar 18, 2022)

Never want to be the party in power with rising gas prices and try to explain to the normie voter that it’s out of your control


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 18, 2022)

espola said:


> After converting liters to gallons and pounds to dollars, the petrol price in England is over $8/gallon.  I suppose Biden is to blame for that as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But to some trump IS still president and Biden is running cover for him . . . but the bad stuff is Biden’s fault! And even though Biden is doing trump a favor by being his shield he’s still a baby eating, pedo! All trumps best friends are.


----------



## what-happened (Mar 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> But to some trump IS still president and Biden is running cover for him . . . but the bad stuff is Biden’s fault! And even though Biden is doing trump a favor by being his shield he’s still a baby eating, pedo! All trumps best friends are.


huh?  Anyway, silly to compare cost of euro petrol vs us petrol  Has always been lopsided in our favor.  Besides, their lorries have smaller tanks..

The rest of your words are just weird..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 18, 2022)

what-happened said:


> huh?  Anyway, silly to compare cost of euro petrol vs us petrol  Has always been lopsided in our favor.  Besides, their lorries have smaller tanks..
> 
> The rest of your words are just weird..


I guess I’m around more trumpy-Q’s than you.


----------



## what-happened (Mar 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I guess I’m around more trumpy-Q’s than you.


I suppose..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 18, 2022)

what-happened said:


> I suppose..


I was in construction for 40 years, grew up around cowboys and bikers, yeah I know a lot that went t-crazed. Lost quite a few friends that went militant trumpy-Q . . . “Do the research bro! Do the research, it will blow your mind!”


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

what-happened said:


> huh?  Anyway, silly to compare cost of euro petrol vs us petrol  Has always been lopsided in our favor.  Besides, their lorries have smaller tanks..
> 
> The rest of your words are just weird..


The price difference between North America and Europe is a given.  The topic under discussion is the recent price increase.






						United Kingdom Gasoline Prices - February 2022 Data - 1995-2021 Historical
					

Gasoline Prices in the United Kingdom increased to 2.01 USD/Liter in February from 1.96 USD/Liter in January of 2022. Gasoline Prices in the United Kingdom averaged 1.65 USD/Liter from 1995 until 2022, reaching an all time high of 2.22 USD/Liter in September of 2014 and a record low of 0.92...




					tradingeconomics.com
				



.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 18, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Never want to be the party in power with rising gas prices and try to explain to the normie voter that it’s out of your control


Ha, yeah I agree. Although I might quibble that he let things get out of his control with regard to inflation.

What's interesting to me is all that money that Biden and Congress deficit spent (which I'd argue caused the inflation) doesn't seem to have paid for itself in love or loyalty from voters. Folks use the word out of touch, but it's become impossible not to notice the party has lost the beat. Perhaps if it were just gas prices that were rising... but it's gas, the cost of meat, cars and really everything.


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 22, 2022)

Yea. This your guy. All your guy. 

WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden's public approval rating fell to a new low of 40% this week, a clear warning sign for his Democratic Party as it seeks to retain control of Congress in the Nov. 8 election, according to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Yea. This your guy. All your guy.
> 
> WASHINGTON, March 22 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden's public approval rating fell to a new low of 40% this week, a clear warning sign for his Democratic Party as it seeks to retain control of Congress in the Nov. 8 election, according to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll.


This op-ed pretty much explains how not just Biden, but dems in general, have lost my vote. Too much batshit crazy, not enough quality leadership.  









						It isn’t ‘fringe left’ hurting Democrats — the fringe IS the Dems
					

What’s the distinction between super wokeness and ordinary wokeness when the party’s oldest and most mainstream members are all pushing ideas that would have seemed outlandish in the Obama era? …




					nypost.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

tenacious said:


> This op-ed pretty much explains how not just Biden, but dems in general, have lost my vote. Too much batshit crazy, not enough quality leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The "Dems" problem is that they don't get out in front of messaging allowing batshit crazy rightwing loons to write the narrative . . . then the casual observers sees that as the reality.


----------



## what-happened (Mar 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The "Dems" problem is that they don't get out in front of messaging allowing batshit crazy rightwing loons to write the narrative . . . then the casual observers sees that as the reality.


you don't know what you are talkinging about - you are not a biologist


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

what-happened said:


> you don't know what you are talkinging about - you are not a biologist


 No, but she is an ornithologist!


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

what-happened said:


> you don't know what you are talkinging about - you are not a biologist


A snarky response to Sen Blackburn could have been "A woman is a person whose highest education is in home economics".


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The "Dems" problem is that they don't get out in front of messaging allowing batshit crazy rightwing loons to write the narrative . . . then the casual observers sees that as the reality.


So I will concede there are some Republicans that are various levels of crazy, but honest question, what policies of the right are bat shit crazy?  Some are a good faith difference of opinions like abortion, but I don't see policies like "defund the police", "cash bail", "retrofitting every building in the US", etc.   We've already seen the disastrous results of "soft on crime" policies.


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> A snarky response to Sen Blackburn could have been "A woman is a person whose highest education is in home economics".


Well at least KBJ admitted it was based on biology, so there's that.


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> Well at least KBJ *admitted *it was based on biology, so there's that.


...suggested...


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> So I will concede there are some Republicans that are various levels of crazy, but honest question, what policies of the right are bat shit crazy?  Some are a good faith difference of opinions like abortion, but I don't see policies like "defund the police", "cash bail", "retrofitting every building in the US", etc.   We've already seen the disastrous results of "soft on crime" policies.


Youj are skilled at "putting things in quotes", but do you have any " meaningful thoughts to express" on those quoted topics?


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> ...suggested...


Yes, that will be her claim if she changes her tune on a matter before her.  But she was unequivocal that that would take a biologist to determine, and last I checked biologists study biology.  But lets both be honest, it was a punt by her to avoid answering a question that was asked for purely political reasons.  Regardless, its all Kabuki theater. At least the opposition is actually sticking to her cases and legal writings and not her high school yearbook.



espola said:


> Youj are skilled at "putting things in quotes", but do you have any " meaningful thoughts to express" on those quoted topics?


My thoughts are irrelevant when we have prima facie evidence that these policies have had disastrous results.


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> My thoughts are irrelevant when we have prima facie evidence that these policies have had disastrous results.


It appears that your answer is "no".


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yes, that will be her claim if she changes her tune on a matter before her.  But she was unequivocal that that would take a biologist to determine, and last I checked biologists study biology.  But lets both be honest, it was a punt by her to avoid answering a question that was asked for purely political reasons.  Regardless, its all Kabuki theater. At least the opposition is actually sticking to her cases and legal writings and not her high school yearbook.


In the Kavanaugh hearings, we saw witnesses testify under oath about the juvenile behavior of the nominee.  I didn't find anything there to be a disqualification, but his intemperate reaction was how he failed the job interview.

In the KTJ hearings, there was no testimony and we saw several Senators posing for the cameras.  Cruz was even observed to be checking his social media impact after his performance.


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> In the Kavanaugh hearings, we saw witnesses testify under oath about the juvenile behavior of the nominee.  I didn't find anything there to be a disqualification, but his intemperate reaction was how he failed the job interview.
> 
> In the KTJ hearings, there was no testimony and we saw several Senators posing for the cameras.  Cruz was even observed to be checking his social media impact after his performance.


I can't say I disagree much with this observation.  However, Kavanaugh's behavior didn't justify the ugly behavior of the opposition (and vice versa).


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> It appears that your answer is "no".


Ha, ha, you took a page out of my book.  Well done.


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> I can't say I disagree much with this observation.  However, Kavanaugh's behavior didn't justify the ugly behavior of the opposition (and vice versa).


What behavior did you find to be ugly?


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 24, 2022)

tenacious said:


> This op-ed pretty much explains how not just Biden, but dems in general, have lost my vote. Too much batshit crazy, not enough quality leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quality leadership in politics no longer exists...


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> What behavior did you find to be ugly?


So its your claim that none of the Dems behavior was ugly? What behavior of Kavanaugh did you find intemperate? 

This could go on forever but I'm not really interested in playing your coy games.  (Queue: What coy games am I playing?)


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> So I will concede there are some Republicans that are various levels of crazy, but honest question, what policies of the right are bat shit crazy?  Some are a good faith difference of opinions like abortion, but I don't see policies like "defund the police", "cash bail", "retrofitting every building in the US", etc.   We've already seen the disastrous results of "soft on crime" policies.


Whose, written or proposed, “policy” includes “defund the police”? The others on your list I have never heard of. Opposing abortion is one thing circumventing law is yet another. I also see polls of Americans, including Republicans and gun association members that show a large majority of us want common sense gun regulations yet congress (and yes a few of those are dems, but almost 100% of Republicans) won’t budge due to gun lobbyist influence. GOP election reform based on trumps lies and a need to limit some from voting are obviously being sold as a solution, a solution in search of a problem. Governors like Desantis making anti-mandate laws taking governance away from local authorities. And again the critical race theory mania in search of a place it’s actually being taught . . . yet another solution looking for a problem. 
Yes I can go on . . .


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yes, that will be her claim if she changes her tune on a matter before her.  But she was unequivocal that that would take a biologist to determine, and last I checked biologists study biology.  But lets both be honest, it was a punt by her to avoid answering a question that was asked for purely political reasons.  Regardless, its all Kabuki theater. At least the opposition is actually sticking to her cases and legal writings and not her high school yearbook.
> 
> 
> My thoughts are irrelevant when we have prima facie evidence that these policies have had disastrous results.


“disastrous”? Please show some evidence of that beyond spin and opinion.


----------



## watfly (Mar 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Whose, written or proposed, “policy” includes “defund the police”? The others on your list I have never heard of. Opposing abortion is one thing circumventing law is yet another. I also see polls of Americans, including Republicans and gun association members that show a large majority of us want common sense gun regulations yet congress (and yes a few of those are dems, but almost 100% of Republicans) won’t budge due to gun lobbyist influence. GOP election reform based on trumps lies and a need to limit some from voting are obviously being sold as a solution, a solution in search of a problem. Governors like Desantis making anti-mandate laws taking governance away from local authorities. And again the critical race theory mania in search of a place it’s actually being taught . . . yet another solution looking for a problem.
> Yes I can go on . . .


I agree with you on some of the common sense gun regulations. In terms of voting reforms, whether the context is based on Trump lies or not (which I would argue is left spin), it's irrelevant when the underlying reforms are fairly common sense.  We can have a good faith debate, but I hardly see requiring some form of identification and fraud prevention elements as "bat shit crazy'.    However, I do think its crazy that some Republicans believe Trump won the election...I'll give you that.

As far as defund the police and cash bail goes, exhibit A is NYC which implemented both including eliminating the plain cloths unit which was incredibly successful at fighting crime.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> I agree with you on some of the common sense gun regulations. In terms of voting reforms, whether the context is based on Trump lies or not (which I would argue is left spin), it's irrelevant when the underlying reforms are fairly common sense.  We can have a good faith debate, but I hardly see requiring some form of identification and fraud prevention elements as "bat shit crazy'.    However, I do think its crazy that some Republicans believe Trump won the election...I'll give you that.
> 
> As far as defund the police and cash bail goes, exhibit A is NYC which implemented both including eliminating the plain cloths unit which was incredibly successful at fighting crime.


I was referring  mostly on a national scale as I actually believe local authorities should have the right to set their own policies, within reason . . . and yes many of the “election reform” laws are being sold as a prevention against what happened in 2020. “Or you won’t have a nation!”


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> So its your claim that none of the Dems behavior was ugly? What behavior of Kavanaugh did you find intemperate?
> 
> This could go on forever but I'm not really interested in playing your coy games.  (Queue: What coy games am I playing?)


I didn't "claim"  anything.  You stated there was ugly behavior.  Care to elaborate?

In his own words --  




I think you meant "Cue".


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> I agree with you on some of the common sense gun regulations. In terms of voting reforms, whether the context is based on Trump lies or not (which I would argue is left spin), it's irrelevant when the underlying reforms are fairly common sense.  We can have a good faith debate, but I hardly see requiring some form of identification and fraud prevention elements as "bat shit crazy'.    However, I do think its crazy that some Republicans believe Trump won the election...I'll give you that.
> 
> As far as defund the police and cash bail goes, exhibit A is NYC which implemented both including eliminating the plain cloths unit which was incredibly successful at fighting crime.



If Biden Won why did he and his worthless administration block so many
honest inquiries into the election results.
Now at this present moment you have more than five States with provable 
electioneering on Nov 3rd 2020.

If Trump lost as you state, then openness about ALL of the results including
the Dominion usage and functions should have been released for ALL of
America to review. But that is NOT the case, never in history has election data
been hidden/destroyed/ blocked by DEMOCRAT judges and Lawyers.


----------



## espola (Mar 24, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> If Biden Won why did he and his worthless administration block so many
> honest inquiries into the election results.
> Now at this present moment you have more than five States with provable
> electioneering on Nov 3rd 2020.
> ...


Are you really that much of a sucker?  Or are you just lying?


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> Are you really that much of a sucker?  Or are you just lying?


I don’t lie.
You suck at fishing.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 24, 2022)

espola said:


> Are you really that much of a sucker?  Or are you just lying?


Racist joe always lies, he said it from the get go.


----------



## espola (Mar 26, 2022)




----------



## espola (Mar 26, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 26, 2022)

espola said:


> It appears that your answer is "no".


So what sports ".. were formerly known as women's sports ".


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 28, 2022)

espola said:


> Are you really that much of a sucker?  Or are you just lying?


That accounted for 255,000 “excess” votes for Mr. Biden above what would be expected, Mr. Lott said. His paper has been accepted for publication in Public Choice, a peer-reviewed journal specializing in the intersection of economics and political science.


----------



## espola (Mar 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> That accounted for 255,000 “excess” votes for Mr. Biden above what would be expected, Mr. Lott said. His paper has been accepted for publication in Public Choice, a peer-reviewed journal specializing in the intersection of economics and political science.


Do you mean John Lott?  (Or perhaps Mary Rosh?)

"Lott’s claims, however, do not withstand scrutiny. Using Lott’s own data, we show in _SI Appendix_, section G that the specification he uses to analyze absentee voting patterns produces different conclusions depending on the entirely arbitrary order in which counties are entered in the dataset. Briefly, Lott posits that, if absentee ballots were correctly handled, the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates a Democratic county from a Republican county should be similar to the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates one Republican county from another. But Lott’s conclusion depends entirely on the order in which the differences are computed for the Republican–Republican pairs. The conclusion is reversed when an alternative and equally justified order is used."



			https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2103619118


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you mean John Lott?  (Or perhaps Mary Rosh?)
> 
> "Lott’s claims, however, do not withstand scrutiny. Using Lott’s own data, we show in _SI Appendix_, section G that the specification he uses to analyze absentee voting patterns produces different conclusions depending on the entirely arbitrary order in which counties are entered in the dataset. Briefly, Lott posits that, if absentee ballots were correctly handled, the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates a Democratic county from a Republican county should be similar to the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates one Republican county from another. But Lott’s conclusion depends entirely on the order in which the differences are computed for the Republican–Republican pairs. The conclusion is reversed when an alternative and equally justified order is used."
> 
> ...


So was that peer reviewed?


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you mean John Lott?  (Or perhaps Mary Rosh?)
> 
> "Lott’s claims, however, do not withstand scrutiny. Using Lott’s own data, we show in _SI Appendix_, section G that the specification he uses to analyze absentee voting patterns produces different conclusions depending on the entirely arbitrary order in which counties are entered in the dataset. Briefly, Lott posits that, if absentee ballots were correctly handled, the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates a Democratic county from a Republican county should be similar to the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates one Republican county from another. But Lott’s conclusion depends entirely on the order in which the differences are computed for the Republican–Republican pairs. The conclusion is reversed when an alternative and equally justified order is used."
> 
> ...





espola said:


> Do you mean John Lott?  (Or perhaps Mary Rosh?)
> 
> "Lott’s claims, however, do not withstand scrutiny. Using Lott’s own data, we show in _SI Appendix_, section G that the specification he uses to analyze absentee voting patterns produces different conclusions depending on the entirely arbitrary order in which counties are entered in the dataset. Briefly, Lott posits that, if absentee ballots were correctly handled, the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates a Democratic county from a Republican county should be similar to the difference in Trump support across a boundary that separates one Republican county from another. But Lott’s conclusion depends entirely on the order in which the differences are computed for the Republican–Republican pairs. The conclusion is reversed when an alternative and equally justified order is used."
> 
> ...


As usual your throwing mud on the wall technique has left upu covered in crap..

So what sports ".. were formerly known as women's sports ".

"Russia spys on all foreign tourist"


----------



## espola (Mar 30, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So was that peer reviewed?


PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) is an official journal of the National Academy of Sciences.  Articles published there have a better reputation than anything published in Public Choice, a  commercial venture published by Springer, a private for-profit company.


----------



## espola (Mar 30, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> As usual your throwing mud on the wall technique has left upu covered in crap..
> 
> So what sports ".. were formerly known as women's sports ".
> 
> "Russia spys on all foreign tourist"


You're babbling.


----------



## crush (Mar 31, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 31, 2022)

espola said:


> PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) is an official journal of the National Academy of Sciences.  Articles published there have a better reputation than anything published in Public Choice, a  commercial venture published by Springer, a private for-profit company.


So that's a no then... I thought so.


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 31, 2022)

espola said:


> You're babbling.


I'm babbling and you're a lying sicko. We all have our faults...


----------



## espola (Mar 31, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So that's a no then... I thought so.


You have an interesting thought process.

According to the "Authors info and affiliations" block of the PNAS article --  "Edited by Kenneth A. Shepsle, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, and approved August 30, 2021 (received for review February 22, 2021)".

Apparently, this is something new for you, so allow me to walk you through the usual process of peer review.  The authors submitted the article to PNAS for review February 22, 2021.  The primary editor for PNAS for this article was Dr. Kenneth A. Shepsle at Harvard*.  In the usual practice for serious journals, he sent the article out for review by others he knew to be knowledgable in the field.  In the interest of honest research and debate, the names of the reviewers are not disclosed (not even to the original authors) unless they do so voluntarily.  Dr. Shepsle suggested modifications based on the reviews and his own reading of the article, the edited article was approved August 30, 2021, and published in PNAS November 2, 2021. 

*https://scholar.harvard.edu/kshepsle/biocv 

It is interesting to note that in Dr. Shepsle's CV is the statement "He was editor of Public Choice".

I now return you to your alternate universe.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 31, 2022)

espola said:


> You have an interesting thought process.
> 
> According to the "Authors info and affiliations" block of the PNAS article --  "Edited by Kenneth A. Shepsle, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, and approved August 30, 2021 (received for review February 22, 2021)".
> 
> ...



We are lucky that you are not on live video.
It's bad enough that the current " Resident "
lies constantly while he wipes his slobber from
the corner of his mouth, but now you post the
above drivel as some sort of support for your
nonexistent logic.

Aren't you the same age or older than Pudding
Brain Joe?

By the way your " Resident " just authorized the 
release of 1 Million Barrels of Oil a day for the 
next 6 months from the SPR.
That " approximately " 180 Million Barrels with 
a current level of 568 Million Barrels in the SPR.
That leaves 388 Million Barrels left in the SPR after
Sept 30, 2022 if they don't add a drop.

 When adjusted for the present level of implied demand, SPR levels 
are already at their lowest levels since 2002, _with just 33 days of supply._





It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 33 Million Barrels is 
May 3, 2022.

US Crude Oil in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve Stocks (ycharts.com) 

You and yours have saddled America with a Commodus, son of Joseph Bidenius
the Union slug.


----------



## espola (Mar 31, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> We are lucky that you are not on live video.
> It's bad enough that the current " Resident "
> lies constantly while he wipes his slobber from
> the corner of his mouth, but now you post the
> ...








						Biden's Massive SPR Release "Does Not Resolve" Upside Risks, Goldman Warns As It Hikes 2023 Oil Price Target To $115 | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 31, 2022)

espola said:


> You have an interesting thought process.
> 
> According to the "Authors info and affiliations" block of the PNAS article --  "Edited by Kenneth A. Shepsle, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, and approved August 30, 2021 (received for review February 22, 2021)".
> 
> ...


So still no...


----------



## espola (Mar 31, 2022)

espola said:


> You have an interesting thought process.





Multi Sport said:


> So still no...


q.e.d.


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 31, 2022)

The federal investigation into Hunter Biden's business practices is broader than previously known, with multiple sources telling CBS News the probe is exploring whether the younger Biden and his associates violated tax, money laundering and foreign lobbying laws.

Business records reviewed by CBS News and documents released by Republicans in Congress indicate Hunter Biden and his firm were involved in multiple financial transactions with a Chinese energy company called CEFC. Republicans allege that the company is an arm of the Chinese government.


espola said:


> q.e.d.


Yep... it's one of your canned weak ass responses that you use when you're wrong.

So.. 
 what sports ".. were formerly known as women's sports ".

"Russia spys on all foreign tourist" please continue. Or don't.


----------



## espola (Mar 31, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The federal investigation into Hunter Biden's business practices is broader than previously known, with multiple sources telling CBS News the probe is exploring whether the younger Biden and his associates violated tax, money laundering and foreign lobbying laws.
> 
> Business records reviewed by CBS News and documents released by Republicans in Congress indicate Hunter Biden and his firm were involved in multiple financial transactions with a Chinese energy company called CEFC. Republicans allege that the company is an arm of the Chinese government.
> 
> ...


I haven't been wrong yet about you.  You, on the other hand, are confirming your long-standing reputation.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 31, 2022)

In other news, I'm trying to wrap my head around Rep. Cawthorn. Seems like there are two distinct possibilities. He's either bat-shite crazy or he woke the sleeping giant. Hmm...      









						Cloud of notoriety builds over Cawthorn after sex-and-drugs claims
					

The North Carolina conservative could be hard to defeat. His latest wild claims about his colleagues are making some Republicans want to try.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Mar 31, 2022)

Wr


espola said:


> I haven't been wrong yet about you.  You, on the other hand, are confirming your long-standing reputation.


Wrong? You were wrong about Russian collusion.  You were wrong about Russia spying on every tourist. You are wrong for wanting to know about guys urinal habits. Your not just wrong, but creepy, with your girls underwear fetish. You can't even backup your own quote...

I haven't lied about you. You just don't like that you got caught with your hand in the urinal.. and now it's common knowledge.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 1, 2022)

I'm going to totally ignoring the right or wrong of it, but my way to early to make prediction for who replaces Biden is Ron DeSantis.

How the heck Disney allowed themselves to get in the middle of a national debate on sex ed for first graders... I'll never know. But RD's is a shark. He'll keep himself in the news for weeks now, just on the momentum of this one story. He takes the media on, on their own playing field and yet still somehow finds the political W's. As long as he gets past Trump, I really doubt there is a dem smart or mean enough to beat him.  



			DeSantis calls for end to Disney’s ‘special privileges’ in Florida


----------



## espola (Apr 1, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Wr
> 
> Wrong? You were wrong about Russian collusion.  You were wrong about Russia spying on every tourist. You are wrong for wanting to know about guys urinal habits. Your not just wrong, but creepy, with your girls underwear fetish. You can't even backup your own quote...
> 
> I haven't lied about you. You just don't like that you got caught with your hand in the urinal.. and now it's common knowledge.


None in a row.  You're off to a flying stop.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 1, 2022)

espola said:


> None in a row.  You're off to a flying stop.


There you go lying again. It's your M.O.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 1, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I'm going to totally ignoring the right or wrong of it, but my way to early to make prediction for who replaces Biden is Ron DeSantis.
> 
> How the heck Disney allowed themselves to get in the middle of a national debate on sex ed for first graders... I'll never know. But RD's is a shark. He'll keep himself in the news for weeks now, just on the momentum of this one story. He takes the media on, on their own playing field and yet still somehow finds the political W's. As long as he gets past Trump, I really doubt there is a dem smart or mean enough to beat him.
> 
> ...


Not sure RDS is the answer. I don't think there really is one. But he might be the closest thing..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 1, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> There you go lying again. It's your M.O.


Mirror, mirror on the wall . . .


----------



## espola (Apr 1, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Mirror, mirror on the wall . . .


Often I am mystified by his claims, such as that I presented myself as an expert on baseball.  The highest position I reached in that sport was as the equipment manager for two different high school teams (we moved to a different town).


----------



## thirteenknots (Apr 1, 2022)

espola said:


> Often I am mystified by his claims, such as that I presented myself as an expert on baseball.  The highest position I reached in that sport was as the equipment manager for two different high school teams (we moved to a different town).


You are one twisted strange individual.

Matter of fact, you are f@#king creepy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 1, 2022)

espola said:


> Often I am mystified by his claims, such as that I presented myself as an expert on baseball.  The highest position I reached in that sport was as the equipment manager for two different high school teams (we moved to a different town).


That poster has always come off as habitually angry and miserable.


----------



## espola (Apr 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That poster has always come off as habitually angry and miserable.


I don't think it's that simple.  Some of his bizarre accusations have been supported after a fashion by other posting personae who have similar forum history.  It's possible they are related to each other or to a now-silent poster who didn't like his hypocrisy being exposed over a decade ago.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Mirror, mirror on the wall . . .


I'm often amazed at the blind allegiance you have towards E. So maybe you can explain what the " formerly known as women's sports" are. 

Or maybe how Russia spys on all foreign tourist. 

Wait.. you still haven't explained your conquest of Potato Mountain. 

Maybe you two are related to the current Liar in Chief. You know, the guy who claims that when he took office there was no vaccine.. even though he had taken the jab in December. 

You guys are all


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That poster has always come off as habitually angry and miserable.


Let's see... how miserable of a life must you have to have posted over 10k times in this forum? And that's just the current version. At least I haven't changed my name like you have..Rat patrol. Now go run along and sober up Sunshine..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Let's see... how miserable of a life must you have to have posted over 10k times in this forum? And that's just the current version. At least I haven't changed my name like you have..Rat patrol. Now go run along and sober up Sunshine..


Poor thing, you sound hurt and bitter.


----------



## espola (Apr 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Poor thing, you sound hurt and bitter.


His tactic seems to be to accuse someone of something without any evidence and then ignore all evidence to the contrary, since that would mean having to admit he was wrong.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

espola said:


> His tactic seems to be to accuse someone of something without any evidence and then ignore all evidence to the contrary, since that would mean having to admit he was wrong.


Lol... like when you post something and then either deny that you did or ignore questions about it? Like I said.. it's your M.O. and everyone knows it..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Poor thing, you sound hurt and bitter.


Is that all you got Sunshine? But I understand.. being drunk and coherent at the same time must be difficult for you.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

Mideast partners have lost confidence in America’s commitment to global leadership or competence for it following last year’s botched Afghanistan withdrawal. They are also experiencing whiplash from a Trump administration that trashed the nuclear deal with Iran to a Biden administration they feel is pursuing it without sufficiently factoring in Tehran’s regional aggression.  

In all my many travels to the Mideast over the years, I have never heard this level of frustration from Mideast government officials with American policymakers.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 3, 2022)

espola said:


> His tactic seems to be to accuse someone of something without any evidence and then ignore all evidence to the contrary, since that would mean having to admit he was wrong.


How trumpian.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> How trumpian.


Aww.. Sunshine is trying harder. C'mon Ratboy you can do better then that. Or not.


----------



## espola (Apr 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> How trumpian.


The thought had occurred to me.  Of course, no matter which side he says he is on, no one should believe him by now.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 3, 2022)

espola said:


> The thought had occurred to me.  Of course, no matter which side he says he is on, no one should believe him by now.


Says the guy who can't answer his own quote.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 3, 2022)

espola said:


> The thought had occurred to me.  Of course, no matter which side he says he is on, no one should believe him by now.


trump speaks (i.e. lies) to the room he’s in.


----------



## espola (Apr 4, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump speaks (i.e. lies) to the room he’s in.


Driving back from Sacramento, we decided that a better name for Truth Social is Liar Sociopath.


----------



## crush (Apr 4, 2022)

espola said:


> Driving back from Sacramento, we decided that a better name for Truth Social is Liar Sociopath.


I have a better name, "Free Social Path."  Let all speak their truths or lies and then I decide, not folks like you.  I will decide what I will read, not Mark, Mickey or Jack, who cover for Dr. F, Jeffrey, Harvey, Hunter, Frances and The CCP and all the other liars.  I told you back in 2016 when FB and all the lawyers on FB sent out a call to their Ilk to ruin anyone who voted for t or did not vote at all.  I took all the names and have been watching people like you lie all day and then try and cover up their lies.  One lie after another.  Plus all the cheating.  You got caught!!!  It's my job to discern what is truth or sociopath, not some wokie fact checker like you.  Look what you have said about me online and my dd old man?  I was so truthful you put me on ignore because you can;t handle the TRUTH.


----------



## espola (Apr 4, 2022)

espola said:


> Driving back from Sacramento, we decided that a better name for Truth Social is Liar Sociopath.


I had forgotten until I was reminded by news reports today that the CEO of Liar Sociopath is Devin Nunes.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 5, 2022)

espola said:


> I had forgotten until I was reminded by news reports today that the CEO of Liar Sociopath is Devin Nunes.


So Liar Sociopath is basically made for and by sociopathic liars.


----------



## espola (Apr 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So Liar Sociopath is basically made for and by sociopathic liars.


Someone should do an appropriate parody.  Devin's Mom - Devin's Cow - Devin's _________?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 5, 2022)

espola said:


> Driving back from Sacramento, we decided that a better name for Truth Social is Liar Sociopath.


Mr. Cryptography, this sounds like a group you would chair...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 5, 2022)

Looks like #11 is on the way out for KH...

But she's a first female/black VP so who cares if she's qualified. 

Ironically, the left made it was such a big deal that she's a woman and now the left can't, or refuse to, define what a woman is.


----------



## crush (Apr 5, 2022)




----------



## crush (Apr 5, 2022)

Narrator: "That's when Joe realized he was f....d"
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 5, 2022)

espola said:


> Often I am mystified by his claims, such as that I presented myself as an expert on baseball.  The highest position I reached in that sport was as the equipment manager for two different high school teams (we moved to a different town).


"I have, and I have some professional experience in cryptography."

Here's another one. 

I would say just about things that you understand or are knowledgeable about. Hmm.. that would mean you could no longer post about anything except urinal habits and girls underwear...


----------



## espola (Apr 5, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> "I have, and I have some professional experience in cryptography."
> 
> Here's another one.
> 
> I would say just about things that you understand or are knowledgeable about. Hmm.. that would mean you could no longer post about anything except urinal habits and girls underwear...


I should have said cryptology, which is more general and includes cryptography.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 5, 2022)

espola said:


> I should have said cryptology, which is more general and includes cryptography.


When your response to a thread on Crypto currency is the above and somehow that lends any amount of credence to you...well it just proves my point. 

Stick to what you know, underwear and urinals, or learn how to do a proper Google search. 

At this point I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.. wait. Nope.


----------



## espola (Apr 5, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> When your response to a thread on Crypto currency is the above and somehow that lends any amount of credence to you...well it just proves my point.
> 
> Stick to what you know, underwear and urinals, or learn how to do a proper Google search.
> 
> At this point I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.. wait. Nope.


You have demonstrated that you have no idea what I am talking about, and I don't think you know much about what you are talking about either.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> You have demonstrated that you have no idea what I am talking about, and I don't think you know much about what you are talking about either.


Deciphering code has nothing to do with Crypto...

Studying code has nothing to fo with Crypto...

Cryptography is not Crypto..

Stick to your strong points..urinals and underwear...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> You have demonstrated that you have no idea what I am talking about, and I don't think you know much about what you are talking about either.


Sums up stupid pretty well. Stupid is one thing but stupid that thinks they are smart is far worse . . . and yes appealing to their stupid  with compliments is an obvious ploy to all but stupid. (See: trump)


----------



## espola (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sums up stupid pretty well. Stupid is one thing but stupid that thinks they are smart is far worse . . . and yes appealing to their stupid  with compliments is an obvious ploy to all but stupid. (See: trump)


Some in the t camp, I believe, are not really stupid.  They just have become comfortable in their beliefs and have not been challenged to lay out the logic behind them.


----------



## crush (Apr 6, 2022)

*Biden wrote college recommendation letter for son of Hunter's Chinese business partner, emails reveal*
*Biden's recommendation letter for Chinese executive's son was sent directly to Brown's president, email says*


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> Some in the t camp, I believe, are not really stupid.  They just have become comfortable in their beliefs and have not been challenged to lay out the logic behind them.


Again the inside the bubble everyone knows. It’s just a given, utter the catchphrase, term or read it from a bumper sticker and those in the know just know. Then it’s just a smirk and nod of the head. I have encountered many people, some in my extended family, that just say things they can’t explain nor will tell you where they got it from, “it just is!” or “I’m just making a statement” as if any background or substantive evidence is unnecessary . . . at least amongst the cult. And seriously some don’t even know they are doing it, it becomes habit. No thought just a conditioned response to a select stimuli that becomes instinctual.


----------



## crush (Apr 6, 2022)




----------



## crush (Apr 6, 2022)

*Ron Klain solicited money from Hunter Biden for VP residence in 2012, emails show: 'Keep this low low key'

*


----------



## espola (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Again the inside the bubble everyone knows. It’s just a given, utter the catchphrase, term or read it from a bumper sticker and those in the know just know. Then it’s just a smirk and nod of the head. I have encountered many people, some in my extended family, that just say things they can’t explain nor will tell you where they got it from, “it just is!” or “I’m just making a statement” as if any background or substantive evidence is unnecessary . . . at least amongst the cult. And seriously some don’t even know they are doing it, it becomes habit. No thought just a conditioned response to a select stimuli that becomes instinctual.


I woke up early and reviewed yesterday's conversations here.  I'm left wondering if Ms what-happened has thought through her claims that t is a better option, and criticism of Biden's reaction to Putin, would combine those two thoughts to believe that Biden should have called Putin a genius for his attacks on Ukraine?


----------



## crush (Apr 6, 2022)

Hi everyone!!!!  Father and Son landing in China back in 2013


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sums up stupid pretty well. Stupid is one thing but stupid that thinks they are smart is far worse . . . and yes appealing to their stupid  with compliments is an obvious ploy to all but stupid. (See: trump)


I'm sure this made sense to you.. when you're sober it probably won't..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Again the inside the bubble everyone knows. It’s just a given, utter the catchphrase, term or read it from a bumper sticker and those in the know just know. Then it’s just a smirk and nod of the head. I have encountered many people, some in my extended family, that just say things they can’t explain nor will tell you where they got it from, “it just is!” or “I’m just making a statement” as if any background or substantive evidence is unnecessary . . . at least amongst the cult. And seriously some don’t even know they are doing it, it becomes habit. No thought just a conditioned response to a select stimuli that becomes instinctual.


Hmmm... like Trump is a racist? Russian collusion? Steele dossier is true? If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> I woke up early and reviewed yesterday's conversations here.  I'm left wondering if Ms what-happened has thought through her claims that t is a better option, and criticism of Biden's reaction to Putin, would combine those two thoughts to believe that Biden should have called Putin a genius for his attacks on Ukraine?


You should grow your beard back.


----------



## crush (Apr 6, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 6, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Hmmm... like Trump is a racist? Russian collusion? Steele dossier is true? If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?


trump uses people racist or not, and there is a history there,
"Russia, if you are listening?" trump tower meeting . . . no collusion? Not for lack of effort.
Dossier, what did he get wrong?
"If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?" Who made that claim?


----------



## espola (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump uses people racist or not, and there is a history there,
> "Russia, if you are listening?" trump tower meeting . . . no collusion? Not for lack of effort.
> Dossier, what did he get wrong?
> "If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?" Who made that claim?


The collusion story matured from "there was no collusion" to "collusion is not illegal" to "the collusion had no effect".


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> The collusion story matured from "there was no collusion" to "collusion is not illegal" to "the collusion had no effect".


On faux they manipulate audio, video and the narrative while kissing the tidy bowl ring as the  faithful close their minds and cheer.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> On faux they manipulate audio, video and the narrative while kissing the tidy bowl ring as the  faithful close their minds and cheer.


"... we do not have evidence of Russian involvement - just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case,”

See Hunters laptop...


----------



## espola (Apr 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> "... we do not have evidence of Russian involvement - just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case,”
> 
> See Hunters laptop...


"The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. Evidence of Russian government operations began to surface in mid-2016. In June, the Democratic National Committee and its cyber response team publicly announced that Russian hackers had compromised its computer network. Releases of hacked materials—hacks that public reporting soon attributed to the Russian government—began that same month. Additional releases followed in July through the organization WikiLeaks, with further releases in October and November."





__





						Loading…
					





					www.justice.gov
				




What's on Hunter's laptop?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> ?The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. Evidence of Russian government operations began to surface in mid-2016. In June, the Democratic National Committee and its cyber response team publicly announced that Russian hackers had compromised its computer network. Releases of hacked materials—hacks that public reporting soon attributed to the Russian government—began that same month. Additional releases followed in July through the organization WikiLeaks, with further releases in October and November."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn’t he trade the laptop for crack? Or was it an easel? Who gives a damn he’s not in the administration nor is he foaming at the mouth standing next to his screaming girlfriend on stage at yet another mindless rally.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 6, 2022)

espola said:


> ?The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. Evidence of Russian government operations began to surface in mid-2016. In June, the Democratic National Committee and its cyber response team publicly announced that Russian hackers had compromised its computer network. Releases of hacked materials—hacks that public reporting soon attributed to the Russian government—began that same month. Additional releases followed in July through the organization WikiLeaks, with further releases in October and November."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Washington Post & the New York Times are two places to start on your journey of enlightenment Magoo. 
Perhaps a special prosecutor should be assigned to find out what Joe knows about his son Hunter and when did he know it.
Trump is deserving and so is the 'big man'....  
What did you think Garland is waiting for regarding the Trump's and the Biden's?
If they broke the law, prosecute them...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> "If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?" Who made that claim?


Really?


----------



## crush (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Really?


Blame game is about to get very interesting.  I read a book that told me the best way to heal is to stop blaming others.  I had a few chips on my shoulder and blamed the system I was born in for all my self pity parties over the years.  I decided to create my own life 5 years ago and I have never looked back.  Yes, I lost most of my dear friends.  My wife and my two kids are 100% committed to helping each other through this matrix.  My elitist pal just told me this morning that t is to blame for all this mess and for rushing the jab quickly with "warp speed."


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> "If your vaccinated you can't catch or spread covid?" Who made that claim?


You obviously must me more then drunk...

Social media users demanded apologies from Rachel Maddow and MSNBC over the liberal host's insistence in March that the COVID-19 vaccine stops the virus dead in its tracks and prevents further transmission.

"Now we know that the vaccines work well enough that the virus stops with every vaccinated person," Maddow said on her show the evening of March 29, 2021. 

"A vaccinated person gets exposed to the virus, the virus does not infect them, the virus cannot then use that person to go anywhere else," she added with a shrug. "It cannot use a vaccinated person as a host to go get more people."


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Hey Sunshine...

*It’s official: Vaccinated people don’t transmit COVID-19*
*CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."*


----------



## espola (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Hey Sunshine...
> 
> *It’s official: Vaccinated people don’t transmit COVID-19*
> *CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."*











						Fact Check-Merged clips of CDC Director Rochelle Walensky discussing vaccine protection from severe COVID-19 are missing context
					

Two merged clips of the Centre of Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Rochelle Walensky discussing the protection from COVID-19 for those vaccinated in March 2021 and August 2021 are presented in a way that is missing context.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## crush (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You obviously must me more then drunk...
> 
> Social media users demanded apologies from Rachel Maddow and MSNBC over the liberal host's insistence in March that the COVID-19 vaccine stops the virus dead in its tracks and prevents further transmission.
> 
> ...


Blame it on the rain,,,,,lol!   All of their leaders have been jabbed and have their boosters and many of them are testing positive for the virus lately.  The blame game is going to heat up.  My old pal is eating crow and telling people he was wrong about the jab and thinks it killed his sister.  I will keep you posted on the sad turn of events in his family.  This guy went to big time college, was super smart and the oldest bro.  Everyone listen to him and he gave bad advice and used the scriptures to back up why everyone should obey their leaders and take all jabs and boosters because they say so


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Hey Ratboy...

"We're requiring active duty military to be vaccinated. We’re making sure healthcare workers are vaccinated, because if you seek care at a healthcare facility, you should have the certainty that the pro -- the people providing that care are protected from COVID and cannot spread it to you," Biden claimed.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Just waiting for the Cryptpgraher to throw some mud on the wall from a Google search


----------



## espola (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Just waiting for the Cryptpgraher to throw some mud on the wall from a Google search


I have decoded your cyphertext " Cryptpgraher" to mean "cryptographer".  If that is what you intended, my response would be that google searches require almost no effort (certainly nothing like cryptography) and that if you did your own research you wouldn't keep stumbling into these embarrassing episodes.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

Dear lord


espola said:


> I have decoded your cyphertext " Cryptpgraher" to mean "cryptographer".  If that is what you intended, my response would be that google searches require almost no effort (certainly nothing like cryptography) and that if you did your own research you wouldn't keep stumbling into these embarrassing episodes.


Oh boy... the Crytographer has gone all spelling nazi. It's one of the things he falls back on when he's absolutely clueless. 

He's still trying to figure out what are "former women's sports"


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

crush said:


> Blame it on the rain,,,,,lol!   All of their leaders have been jabbed and have their boosters and many of them are testing positive for the virus lately.  The blame game is going to heat up.  My old pal is eating crow and telling people he was wrong about the jab and thinks it killed his sister.  I will keep you posted on the sad turn of events in his family.  This guy went to big time college, was super smart and the oldest bro.  Everyone listen to him and he gave bad advice and used the scriptures to back up why everyone should obey their leaders and take all jabs and boosters because they say so


I'm hearing about too many occurrences like this..


----------



## espola (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Dear lord
> 
> Oh boy... the Crytographer has gone all spelling nazi. It's one of the things he falls back on when he's absolutely clueless.
> 
> He's still trying to figure out what are "former women's sports"


I know what that means.  I expect most people who read that know what I meant.  It does not displease me that you continue to make an issue of it.

BTW, describing me as "cryptographer" is much more accurate than the usual lies you tell about me.

So --

Please continue.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

espola said:


> I know what that means.  I expect most people who read that know what I meant.  It does not displease me that you continue to make an issue of it.
> 
> BTW, describing me as "cryptographer" is much more accurate than the usual lies you tell about me.
> 
> ...


 Crytographer...
It does not displease me that you are not displeased. It reminds me how confused you are.

 Maybe you can find some small amount of satisfaction knowing that people are laughing at you as you and Sunshine provide comedic relief here on the forum.

So yes thank you.. I will continue and always will.


----------



## espola (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Crytographer...
> It does not displease me that you are not displeased. It reminds me how confused you are.
> 
> Maybe you can find some small amount of satisfaction knowing that people are laughing at you as you and Sunshine provide comedic relief here on the forum.
> ...


As I have already [pointed out, "cryptologist" is more accurate.  But whatever floats your boat.


----------



## crush (Apr 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Crytographer...
> It does not displease me that you are not displeased. It reminds me how confused you are.
> 
> Maybe you can find some small amount of satisfaction knowing that people are laughing at you as you and Sunshine provide comedic relief here on the forum.
> ...


Laughing is good for the soul.  Enjoy the laughs because pain is coming to all of us for the cheating the others did.  Eat crow and humble pie is the only way out.  Cheaters cheating others out of freedom.  The tide is turned and tje salt shacker be shaking.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 7, 2022)

A


espola said:


> As I have already [pointed out, "cryptologist" is more accurate.  But whatever floats your boat.


Mr Cryptpgraher..
As I have already pointed out you're clueless. But it's fun to watch you flounder..

Please continue...


----------



## crush (Apr 7, 2022)




----------



## thirteenknots (Apr 11, 2022)

Judge Jeanine Drops Truth Bomb On Biden: He’d Rather Arm the Taliban Than Law-Abiding Americans - YouTube


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 12, 2022)

New York Democratic Lt. Gov. Brian Benjamin has resigned after being arrested and indicted on charges in connection with his alleged participation in a scheme to obtain campaign contributions in exchange for securing a state grant, according to an indictment unsealed Tuesday.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 12, 2022)

I recall some of the loons on the left making a big deal about a fly landing on President Trump during one of his speeches.  
It's called Karma...


----------



## crush (Apr 13, 2022)

"Imagine had the tobacco industry been immune to prostitute being sued, come on."  JB


----------



## crush (Apr 13, 2022)

BidenFlation Graph.  It's not right to blame it on the Rain or Ukraine you guys who keep lying & cheating.  I debated my buddy this morning,  He's a fence sitter and has enough "Dollars" to get him through this life and next life, but not with kids.  Any who, this wise guy thinks the mess were all in is Putin's fault and those who refused to obey the Jab.  He knows where I stand and I know what he knelt to a couple years ago.  We love each to the moon and back.  We like each other because we don;t hold back and we both talk smack.  He just admitted to me that I have been way more right then him about the last 5 years and he does feel he was lied to about so much.  However, he is all in with the dollar and will do whatever the dollar tells him to do.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 13, 2022)

KEY POINTS

President Joe Biden’s approval rating slid to a new low of 38%, according to CNBC’s All-America Survey.
His approval rating on the economy dropped for a fourth consecutive survey.
As inflation rises, 47% of participants say the economy is “poor,” the highest number in that category since 2012.


----------



## crush (Apr 13, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> KEY POINTS
> 
> President Joe Biden’s approval rating slid to a new low of 38%, according to CNBC’s All-America Survey.
> His approval rating on the economy dropped for a fourth consecutive survey.
> As inflation rises, 47% of participants say the economy is “poor,” the highest number in that category since 2012.


No way that many approve of this guy.  No one I know supports this man.  They want him out.  His own son turn pops in.  They still love their party and think Kamala will do better and then bring in Michelle Obama as VP.  Can you believe this?  Insane loyalty for one party.  If I had a party that I belonged to that behaved the way Joe's party has the last 6 years, I would be gone and never come back.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> KEY POINTS
> 
> President Joe Biden’s approval rating slid to a new low of 38%, according to CNBC’s All-America Survey.
> His approval rating on the economy dropped for a fourth consecutive survey.
> As inflation rises, 47% of participants say the economy is “poor,” the highest number in that category since 2012.


Still, the majority of Americans are happier Joe is the president than the 2020 loser.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 14, 2022)

So are we allowed to say Trumps a clown and has no chance in 2024? Or is a 'all sizzle and no steak' joke still enough to get (GOP) people canceled in mainstream politics...









						Donald Trump condemns NATO when asked about Russia's "evil" actions
					

"People are gonna look back and say, how did we stand back, and NATO stand back, which I've called the paper tiger," said the former president.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Still, the majority of Americans are happier Joe is the president than the 2020 loser.


There it is! The proof that you're the forum drunk...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

tenacious said:


> So are we allowed to say Trumps a clown and has no chance in 2024? Or is a 'all sizzle and no steak' joke still enough to get (GOP) people canceled in mainstream politics...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most intelligent people agree with Trump that Russia would not have invaded had he still been President.


----------



## espola (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Most intelligent people agree with Trump that Russia would not have invaded had he still been President.


No intelligent people agree with that.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

espola said:


> No intelligent people agree with that.


Keep trying perv...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

A poll conducted by the Harvard Center for American Political Studies found that 63% of Americans believed that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Trump had remained in power..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

"Former UN ambassador Nikki Haley has also claimed that the invasion “never would have happened” under the former US president’s watch. Haley told NBC’s _Meet the Press_ last week that Trump “countered Russia” with his White House actions, including sanctioning Nord Stream 2, increasing spending on US military and making the country energy independent."


----------



## espola (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Keep trying perv...


Oh, so it's "perv" now?  

Your defense against a charge of libel or slander is that no one should believe anything you say, just like Fox News' defense of Tucker.


----------



## espola (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> A poll conducted by the Harvard Center for American Political Studies found that 63% of Americans believed that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Trump had remained in power..


That poll was conducted at the end of February.


----------



## espola (Apr 14, 2022)

espola said:


> That poll was conducted at the end of February.


Here is something a little more recent --









						Public Expresses Mixed Views of U.S. Response to Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine
					

About a third of adults (32%) say the U.S. is providing about the right amount of support for Ukraine, while a larger share (42%) says it should be providing more support; just 7% say it is giving Ukraine too much support.




					www.pewresearch.org


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

“This was a real serious case of inflation. We lost a whole year on addressing the issue. Only because, frankly, we have leadership today in America that isn’t willing to admit when they’re wrong. They made a terrible blunder here, and now the price has got to be paid,” Langone told host Neil Cavuto.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 14, 2022)

espola said:


> Here is something a little more recent --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you even read what you posted first? Obviously not. LMAO !!


----------



## crush (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> “This was a real serious case of inflation. We lost a whole year on addressing the issue. Only because, frankly, we have leadership today in America that isn’t willing to admit when they’re wrong. They made a terrible blunder here, and now the price has got to be paid,” Langone told host Neil Cavuto.


Did Neil admit he was wrong?


----------



## espola (Apr 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Did you even read what you posted first? Obviously not. LMAO !!


It's not more recent?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 14, 2022)

espola said:


> Here is something a little more recent --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fools aren’t aware they are, they think they’re cool.


----------



## crush (Apr 14, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fools aren’t aware they are, they think they’re cool.


Ya Brah.  New Wave Dave says hi.  Fear has you right now.  Let it go.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Most intelligent people agree with Trump that Russia would not have invaded had he still been President.


Let me see if I follow, Trump would have talked about his button being bigger and Putin would have backed down? Hmm... I wonder what intelligent people would say about that.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> It's not more recent?


Ummm..what does that have to do with what I posted?

Let me help you. Nothing.

Once again proving you don't read the stuff you post.

Please continue..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Let me see if I follow, Trump would have talked about his button being bigger and Putin would have backed down? Hmm... I wonder what intelligent people would say about that.


The world is laughing at out leadership.. or should I say lack of leadership.  

When the strongest military in the world is led by the weakest leader in the world you don't think Putin noticed? I believe Joe's motto is strength through weakness...


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Ummm..what does that have to do with what I posted?
> 
> Let me help you. Nothing.
> 
> ...


Why would you think I didn't read it?


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The world is laughing at out leadership.. or should I say lack of leadership.
> 
> When the strongest military in the world is led by the weakest leader in the world you don't think Putin noticed? I believe Joe's motto is strength through weakness...


Do you agree with t's first reaction to the Russian invasion that it shows Putin is a genius?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> Why would you think I didn't read it?


If you read it and still posted it then you and Sunshine must be sharing a bottle these days. Face it... your playing days are behind you and you should back away from the keyboard.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Fools aren’t aware they are, they think they’re cool.


Hey Sunshine...

During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden falsely stated that "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations," and "If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the ICU unit, and you’re not going to die."


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> If you read it and still posted it then you and Sunshine must be sharing a bottle these days. Face it... your playing days are behind you and you should back away from the keyboard.


As expected, no content from you other than lies about me.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you agree with t's first reaction to the Russian invasion that it shows Putin is a genius?


“Well, you have to work out a deal. They have to stop killing these people,” Trump answered. “They’re killing all of these people, and they have to stop it, and they have to stop it now.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> As expected, no content from you other than lies about me.


You posted it. Not me. 

Just proves your an idiot starving for attention...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> As expected, no content from you other than lies about me.


Maybe you can use your "professional" cryptography skills to elaborate on what you were getting at with that post. But first, you'll need to find your decoder ring.


----------



## crush (Apr 15, 2022)




----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Maybe you can use your "professional" cryptography skills to elaborate on what you were getting at with that post. But first, you'll need to find your decoder ring.


Still nothing but lies.  By this point, you are having no effect on me since everyone knows by now that lying is your only defense.  However, it is daily reinforcement of some facets of your character.

It appears you enjoy playing the role of schoolyard bully.  I can almost hear the hoots of your gang of simians standing behind you hooting "Give him a wedgie, Butch!"


----------



## crush (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> *Still nothing but lies*.  By this point, you are having no effect on me since* everyone* knows by now that lying is your only defense.  However, it is daily reinforcement of some facets of your character.
> 
> It appears you enjoy playing the role of schoolyard bully.  I can almost hear the hoots of your gang of simians standing behind you hooting "Give him a wedgie, Butch!"


You just lied.  Caught you red handed.  Stop lying brother.  It won't get you into paradise.  The good book says all liars will not inherent the Kingdom of God.  You can stop and change and then enter though.  God wants all men and woman to be saved.  No one can come if they lie all the time.  You are projecting 100% unto others what you do all day, which is lie.  Today and Sunday I will be laying it out and strong.  My PMs are up with angry atheist and those who don;t like to hear the truth.  I promise for once I will go away and never come back Espola.  I honestly will have zero time.  I have to help the in-laws.  Looks like were going to Florida.  You can be a fact checker and not worrying about me taking the facts out of your checking.  The truth is the truth and no man can change the truth.  I spoke with truth to you sir and you have proven yourself to be a liar.  You have to live with that.  All liars, listen up.  Stop lying and you can be with the Creator, the angels and all souls who live for the TRUTH.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

What an embarrassment this guy is..

After Biden finished his speech, he turned around and tried to shake hands with thin air and then wandered around looking confused pic.twitter.com/ZN00TLdUUo


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> Still nothing but lies.  By this point, you are having no effect on me since everyone knows by now that lying is your only defense.  However, it is daily reinforcement of some facets of your character.
> 
> It appears you enjoy playing the role of schoolyard bully.  I can almost hear the hoots of your gang of simians standing behind you hooting "Give him a wedgie, Butch!"


What lies? Prove it.

You, along with our current president,  are an embarrassment. I don't expect any of this to affect you.. it only would if we're an honest person.  People like you, who are habitual liars, are very good at trying to deflect.

So carry on Mr professional Crytographer,  who claims that Russia spys on all foreign tourist, who talks about sports formerly known as women's sports, who wants to know guys urinal habits and wants to know more about little girls underwear.


----------



## crush (Apr 15, 2022)

*Zelenskyy says world should 'be ready' for possibility Putin uses nuclear weapons, let me repeat,
Zelenskyy says world should 'be ready' for possibility Putin uses nuclear weapons*


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 15, 2022)




----------



## crush (Apr 15, 2022)

Joe Biden got 81,000,000 votes, most in history.  Today, CNN reported that Biden has the lowest approval rating of any President in recorded history.


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> What lies? Prove it.
> 
> You, along with our current president,  are an embarrassment. I don't expect any of this to affect you.. it only would if we're an honest person.  People like you, who are habitual liars, are very good at trying to deflect.
> 
> So carry on Mr professional Crytographer,  who claims that Russia spys on all foreign tourist, who talks about sports formerly known as women's sports, who wants to know guys urinal habits and wants to know more about little girls underwear.


That pretty much sums up your universe, doesn't it?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> That pretty much sums up your universe, doesn't it?


I expected a better response then that. In your younger days I considered you hood for a witty, maybe canned, response. You've fallen way off your game. Maybe you should go back to being a "professional " of whatever...

Maybe take your boy Sunshine with you.


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> What lies? Prove it.
> 
> You, along with our current president,  are an embarrassment. I don't expect any of this to affect you.. it only would if we're an honest person.  People like you, who are habitual liars, are very good at trying to deflect.
> 
> So carry on Mr professional Crytographer,  who claims that Russia spys on all foreign tourist, who talks about sports formerly known as women's sports, who wants to know guys urinal habits and wants to know more about little girls underwear.


Here is a more thorough response to your lunacy,

1.  I worked with cryptographic equipment in my navy days and later in my computer engineering days.  In my last job before retirement, I was cleared by the NSA at Secret-Crypto level.  I can't provide any details beyond the fact that it was a bureaucratic clusterfuck because I don't know where the boundary of classified information to which I was privy is anymore, since it is years since I worked in the field.

2.  Whenever a foreigner enters Russia as a tourist or businessman, their identity as derived from their passport is compared to a list of persons of interest to their security people.  I was at one time scheduled to attend a chemical weapons conference in Russia, but my company backed out when they saw the administrative and security issues involved.  This point was raised during the discussion of whether Russia spied on t when he was there promoting his hotel business.  Of course they did.  Your position that indicates that you don't know this does not surprise me at all.

3.  The "sports formerly known as women's sports" was in reference to the fact that men can now compete in them as long as they meet certain requirements, which seems to me to be unfair to biological women for which those sports were created.  Again, I am not surprised you claim not to comprehend this.

4.  The only person posting anything about urinal habits is you.  And -- I have never created a poll on this forum on any topic.

5.  The post several forum versions ago (2009 perhaps?) that you are referring to here was when I posted my opinion that the color of children's underwear is none of any referee's business.  The poster known as JaP disagreed with me for a while, and then realizing what he had done, tried to recover by painting me with odious accusations. 

None in a row.  You're off to a flying stop.  Please continue.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 15, 2022)

espola said:


> Here is a more thorough response to your lunacy,
> 
> 1.  I worked with cryptographic equipment in my navy days and later in my computer engineering days.  In my last job before retirement, I was cleared by the NSA at Secret-Crypto level.  I can't provide any details beyond the fact that it was a bureaucratic clusterfuck because I don't know where the boundary of classified information to which I was privy is anymore, since it is years since I worked in the field.
> 
> ...


Yeah the long sleeves under the team jersey, due to near freezing temperatures (State Cup? Lancaster?) needing to match perfectly in color debate was a memorable one. JAP at his best or is that worst? Seems he couldn’t fathom bending the LOTG, just a smidge, so children wouldn’t freeze. If I remember correctly it was the uncompromising vs it’s a kids game.


----------



## espola (Apr 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah the long sleeves under the team jersey, due to near freezing temperatures (State Cup? Lancaster?) needing to match perfectly in color debate was a memorable one. JAP at his best or is that worst? Seems he couldn’t fathom bending the LOTG, just a smidge, so children wouldn’t freeze. If I remember correctly it was the uncompromising vs it’s a kids game.


At some point he backed down and said the referees would no longer be enforcing underwear regulations when the weather was cold.  Then he started arguing about what "cold" meant, which at one point led him to denying the reports of an online weather station near one field.  He was literally arguing with a thermometer.

The fact that he claimed to have that power over State Cup referees was the clue I needed to figure out his real identity.  If someone is seeking clues as to what killed Cal South, his role in the disaster would be a good starting point.


----------



## baldref (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> At some point he backed down and said the referees would no longer be enforcing underwear regulations when the weather was cold.  Then he started arguing about what "cold" meant, which at one point led him to denying the reports of an online weather station near one field.  He was literally arguing with a thermometer.
> 
> The fact that he claimed to have that power over State Cup referees was the clue I needed to figure out his real identity.  If someone is seeking clues as to what killed Cal South, his role in the disaster would be a good starting point.


you're leaving out a lot. but it's expected....


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 16, 2022)

baldref said:


> you're leaving out a lot. but it's expected....


Did you want him to rehash the whole discussion? Lol! Typical coming from a trump humper  . . . ignore yours and demand full disclosure from theirs.


----------



## crush (Apr 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you want him to rehash the whole discussion? Lol! Typical coming from a trump humper  . . . ignore yours and demand full disclosure from theirs.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

baldref said:


> you're leaving out a lot. but it's expected....


So fill in the details.


----------



## crush (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> So fill in the details.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Here is a more thorough response to your lunacy,
> 
> 1.  I worked with cryptographic equipment in my navy days and later in my computer engineering days.  In my last job before retirement, I was cleared by the NSA at Secret-Crypto level.  I can't provide any details beyond the fact that it was a bureaucratic clusterfuck because I don't know where the boundary of classified information to which I was privy is anymore, since it is years since I worked in the field.
> 
> ...


Ok.. I'll play.

1. In a thread for crypto currency,  you claim to have had professional experience as a cryptographer,  as if that has anything to do with crypto currency. Strike one.

2. You posted that Russia spys, not does a a security check against a list, on every foreign tourist. You do know the difference,  right?
Strike two.

3. When you posted " sports formerly known as women's sports" I asked the question.. what sports are those. As usual you did not reply because you realized that you had painted yourself into a corner..again.
Strike three.

4. Just because you don't want to admit to posting your thoughts about wanting to know about guys urinal habits doesn't mean you didn't post it. A simple delete of the post and it's gone. Problem is I had already read it so you were too late. Now you're just plain embarrassed..
I'd add another Strike but you're already out. 

5. Regardless of the reason, posting about little girls underwear is just plain creepy, especially coming from an old man like you.
Triple play.

Thanks for playing...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> So fill in the details.


Exactly.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you want him to rehash the whole discussion? Lol! Typical coming from a trump humper  . . . ignore yours and demand full disclosure from theirs.


You're funny..

Did you figure out who said if you're vaccinated you can't get or spread covid? 

C'mon Sunshine.. I even gave you the quote.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Ok.. I'll play.
> 
> 1. In a thread for crypto currency,  you claim to have had professional experience as a cryptographer,  as if that has anything to do with crypto currency. Strike one.
> 
> ...


I'm still amused how you willingly display your ignorance as if it were some sort of rebuttal.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm still amused how you willingly display your ignorance as if it were some sort of rebuttal.


So tell me. How do your professional cryptography skills translate to crypto currency?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm still amused how you willingly display your ignorance as if it were some sort of rebuttal.


They cheer each other’s ignorance on.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So tell me. How do your professional cryptography skills translate to crypto currency?


The transaction communications, on which the whole process depends, are encrypted at what is currently considered to be a safe level.  The NSA guys smile, remembering that people have underestimated them before.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> The transaction communications, on which the whole process depends, are encrypted at what is currently considered to be a safe level.  The NSA guys smile, remembering that people have underestimated them before.


Lol! Nice try Mr Crytographer.

You know nothing at all and you're proving it now. Your ignorance is on full display. 

If you were an honest person you would know that cryptography and crypto currency have little in common except for the name..

Once again you've overstepped. Maybe Sunshine can offer you a consolation prize.. a shot of cheap bourbon..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They cheer each other’s ignorance on.


Drinking early again Sunshine?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm still amused how you willingly display your ignorance as if it were some sort of rebuttal.


Please explain how doing a background check equates to spying..


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Lol! Nice try Mr Crytographer.
> 
> You know nothing at all and you're proving it now. Your ignorance is on full display.
> 
> ...


You're as bad as Izzy.  Even when shown the answer in plain English, you still reject it.  I haven't totally abandoned the possibility that you actually are Izzy, posting under another name.

Here is a simple math question that Izzy will fail -- what is the 8th root of 1?  (Careful now, there is more than one correct answer).


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Please explain how doing a background check equates to spying..


You think all it is just a background check?  They know what hotel you are staying at, what purchases you have made on a credit or debit card, how many dollars you have exchanged for rubles, and in most cases who you have been talking to.  If you are taking pictures with your cellphone and posting them online or to a cloud storage location, they have copies available right away.

Now, more to the point, do you think that they might possibly have video of whatever t did in his Moscow hotel room?  From many angles, with excellent sound and auto-generated Russian subtitles?  T knows what he did and at some point he became aware that they do too.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> You're as bad as Izzy.  Even when shown the answer in plain English, you still reject it.  I haven't totally abandoned the possibility that you actually are Izzy, posting under another name.
> 
> Here is a simple math question that Izzy will fail -- what is the 8th root of 1?  (Careful now, there is more than one correct answer).


Wow.. it's an answer in plain English alright but it's still proves you're wrong. 

You don't have the slightest idea how anything in the crypto space works and it's painfully obvious... even in plain English.

Funny how easy it is to expose you when you post nothing but BS. 

Btw.. how does doing a background check equate to spying? Once again, your words.

And I'm not interested in proving anything to you... I'm not the one trying to brag about stuff and lie.


----------



## NorCalDad (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Ok.. I'll play.
> 
> 1. In a thread for crypto currency,  you claim to have had professional experience as a cryptographer,  as if that has anything to do with crypto currency. Strike one.
> 
> ...


Oh I see here in this thread.  @Multi Sport are you suggesting cryptocurrencies have nothing to do with cryptography?  Am I understanding that correctly here?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> espola said:
> 
> 
> > You think all it is just a background check?  They know what hotel you are staying at, what purchases you have made on a credit or debit card, how many dollars you have exchanged for rubles, and in most cases who you have been talking to.  If you are taking pictures with your cellphone and posting them online or to a cloud storage location, they have copies available right away.
> ...


Your words Magoof... you said background check but originally posted spy on EVERY FOREIGN TOURIST. 

I'm just using your own words against you... snd that easy.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh I see here in this thread.  @Multi Sport are you suggesting cryptocurrencies have nothing to do with cryptography?  Am I understanding that correctly here?


E is inferring that somehow his experience as a professional cryptographer back in the day, gives him some sort of credence in the usage of today's crypto currency.


----------



## NorCalDad (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> E is inferring that somehow his experience as a professional cryptographer back in the day, gives him some sort of credence in the usage of today's crypto currency.


Replied in another thread, but the cryptography cryptocurrencies use are based on ideas from a ways back.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Replied in another thread, but the cryptography cryptocurrencies use are based on ideas from a ways back.


Block chain hasn't been around that long.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Wow.. it's an answer in plain English alright but it's still proves you're wrong.
> 
> You don't have the slightest idea how anything in the crypto space works and it's painfully obvious... even in plain English.
> 
> ...


I think you should invest all the money you have and all you can borrow in crypto currencies today.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> E is inferring that somehow his experience as a professional cryptographer back in the day, gives him some sort of credence in the usage of today's crypto currency.


I am inferring that you meant implying there.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Block chain hasn't been around that long.


It has been around long enough that someone with sufficient resources knows how to crack it by now.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> It has been around long enough that someone with sufficient resources knows how to crack it by now.


Do you admit you know nothing.. as I thought.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I think you should invest all the money you have and all you can borrow in crypto currencies today.


Actually one of the smartest things you have said..we'll at least compared to anything else you've posted.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Actually one of the smartest things you have said..we'll at least compared to anything else you've posted.


Are you doing it?  Or are you just a paper tiger?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> It has been around long enough that someone with sufficient resources knows how to crack it by now.


So you're still ignorant when it comes to crypto currencies.

You still think doing a background check is spying and that Russia spys on every foreign tourist. 




espola said:


> Are you doing it?  Or are you just a paper tiger?


Why would I divulge such information to you? But if you know what a Ledger is you would have your answer.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So you're still ignorant when it comes to crypto currencies.
> 
> You still think doing a background check is spying and that Russia spys on every foreign tourist.
> 
> ...


I never said "just a background check".  Those are your words.  Erecting strawmen made of lies is your standard operating procedure.

How much have you made in your investment so far?


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I never said "just a background check".  Those are your words.  Erecting strawmen made of lies is your standard operating procedure.
> 
> How much have you made in your investment so far?


"Whenever a foreigner enters Russia as a tourist or businessman, their identity as derived from their passport is compared to a list of persons of interest to their security people. "

You're right. It's less then a background check. It's a stare and compare. And you equate that to SPYING ON EVERY FOREIGN TOURIST. Lol!

You can ask all you want Magoof. I don't discuss my finances on a public soccer forum.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> "Whenever a foreigner enters Russia as a tourist or businessman, their identity as derived from their passport is compared to a list of persons of interest to their security people. "
> 
> You're right. It's less then a background check. It's a stare and compare. And you equate that to SPYING ON EVERY FOREIGN TOURIST. Lol!
> 
> You can ask all you want Magoof. I don't discuss my finances on a public soccer forum.


And yet you expose your true character for all to see every day. 

Quoth Iago, from Othello Act III --

_Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, 
Is the immediate jewel of their souls: 
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands: 
But he that filches from me my good name 
Robs me of that which not enriches him 
And makes me poor indeed._


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> And yet you expose your true character for all to see every day.
> 
> Quoth Iago, from Othello Act III --
> 
> ...


Quoting people smarter than you make you smart..

But me quoting you makes you look stupid..


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> It has been around long enough that someone with sufficient resources knows how to crack it by now.


You know sometimes if you give people enough time they will begin to divulge things about themselves.  At first glance it seems like nothing.. but then.

I've always wondered why you would lie with such confidence about your urinal post knowing that there are sites with tools that enable people pull information,  pages, screen shots of long gone websites. 

I remember when one of the previous versions of socalsoccer crashed. I believe Doms coment was something like who would want to hack his site and take it down. What was their motivation? Possibly they were  embarrassed about a post?

Now someone would have to be versed in cyber security.. maybe like a cryptographer to be able to pull this off.

Have a great day E..


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> You're as bad as Izzy.  Even when shown the answer in plain English, you still reject it.  I haven't totally abandoned the possibility that you actually are Izzy, posting under another name.
> 
> Here is a simple math question that Izzy will fail -- what is the 8th root of 1?  (Careful now, there is more than one correct answer).


Have you finished your arithmetic homework yet?

Here is some help --

x times x times x times x times x times x times x times x equals 1.  What is the value of x?  For full credit, show one correct value.  For extra credit, show all possible values of x.  

How hard could it be?  The only value in the problem is 1.


----------



## NorCalDad (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Block chain hasn't been around that long.


Cryptocurrencies use cryptography, it's not just the blockchain:





__





						How Cryptography is Used in Cryptocurrency | World Crypto Index
					

Digital currencies like Bitcoin, Litecoin and Ethereum all use cryptography. Learn what cryptography is, how it works and how it is used in cryptocurrency.




					www.worldcryptoindex.com
				




But even the roots of blockchain (proof of work) go back to the early 90s:





__





						Proof of work - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Just read the wikipedia page on blockchain:





__





						Blockchain - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




In 1982 the first blockchain-like protocol was proposed....

I know you don't like @espola, but this is a weird hill to die on.  A lot of  computer science algorithms/concepts have a very rich history.  Just read up on Ada Lovelace, Charles Babbage, Alan Turning, Donald Knuth, etc etc etc.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Cryptocurrencies use cryptography, it's not just the blockchain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One can never learn if they can’t acknowledge their mistakes.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Cryptocurrencies use cryptography, it's not just the blockchain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Turing (sp) is one of my heroes of computer science.  The last hard course I took to get my Computer Science degree from SDSU was Introduction to Computability.  The study of Turing machines was about half of the course content.  The Turing test is relevant to current online interactions today - is that a person or a computer?

Turing is relevant here because he and his crew of oddballs famously broke the German Enigma machine, although if you study the real history of that (and not movies like The Imitation Game) they were helped a great deal by sloppy procedures among the German radio operators.  One example is that they often chose the same 3 letters for the secondary machine settings (something like their girlfriend's initials).  That's equivalent to giving away each day's settings, once the cryptanalysts realized what was happening.  Another weakness was covered to some degree in the movie -- using standard formats for weather messages sent at the same time every morning and, being good Nazis, including a "Heil Hitler" as a closing salutation.  Even that could have been disguised by well-known techniques such as Russian copulation (chopping a message in two parts and sending the second part first - that disguises the location of the standard opening and closing phrases and the proper placement of the two halves is usually obvious after decoding).

Blockchain techniques were first proposed in a crude form in the early '80s but no one did anything useful with them.  There was a revolution in electronics in the '70s as a lot of difficult, sloppy, techniques were shown to have simple, precise analogs in the digital domain.  I had the pleasure of working with fred harris (no caps in his name) an SDSU electronics/computer wizard who rode around the campus on a skateboard and had a house full of model trains.  He was a consultant for our company and regularly gave seminars on the latest techniques in our conference room.  At one time the speed and capability of our bigger machines (FFT sonar analyzers) were limited by the race between the capabilities of analog-to-digital converters and digital multiplier chips.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Cryptocurrencies use cryptography, it's not just the blockchain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not gonna die on a hill. My point was E and his knowledge if cryptography does not give him credence in crypto currency.  He has no idea what blockchain or even  white paper are or do in the crypto space. 

Blockchain, as far as use in crypto is fairly new..post 2k. I don't doubt a form of it was proposed earlier but being used in actual application is another thing.

Take AI. It's been around for a long time in some form but just recently has been put to use in the crypto world. 

I could care less about Es "credentials " in cryptography that he learned in the 70s as they are of little use in the crypto space of today. He might be able to hack a soccer website.. doesn't mean he understands how cc work.

And you would be correct. I generally don't like people who lie at the drop of a hat.. hence my feelings for E.


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Not gonna die on a hill. My point was E and his knowledge if cryptography does not give him credence in crypto currency.  He has no idea what blockchain or even  white paper are or do in the crypto space.
> 
> Blockchain, as far as use in crypto is fairly new..post 2k. I don't doubt a form of it was proposed earlier but being used in actual application is another thing.
> 
> ...


What lies?


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Turing (sp) is one of my heroes of computer science.  The last hard course I took to get my Computer Science degree from SDSU was Introduction to Computability.  The study of Turing machines was about half of the course content.  The Turing test is relevant to current online interactions today - is that a person or a computer?
> 
> Turing is relevant here because he and his crew of oddballs famously broke the German Enigma machine, although if you study the real history of that (and not movies like The Imitation Game) they were helped a great deal by sloppy procedures among the German radio operators.  One example is that they often chose the same 3 letters for the secondary machine settings (something like their girlfriend's initials.  That's equivalent to giving away each day's settings, once the cryptanalysts realized what was happening.  Another weakness was covered to some degree in the movie -- using standard formats for weather messages sent at the same time every morning and, being good Nazis, including a "Heil Hitler" as a closing salutation.  Even that could have been disguised by well-known techniques such as Russian copulation (chopping a message in two parts and sending the second part first - that disguises the location of the standard opening and closing phrases and the proper placement of the two halves is usually obvious after decoding).
> 
> Blockchain techniques were first proposed in a crude form in the early '80s but no one did anything useful with them.  There was a revolution in electronics in the '70s as a lot of difficult, sloppy, techniques were shown to have simple, precise analogs in the digital domain.  I had the pleasure of working with fred harris (no caps in his name) an SDSU electronics/computer wizard who rode around the campus on a skateboard and had a house full of model trains.  He was a consultant for our company and regularly gave seminars on the latest techniques in our conference room.  At one time the speed and capability of our bigger machines (FFT sonar analyzers) were limited by the race between the capabilities of analog-to-digital converters and digital multiplier chips.


I should have added that the Enigma machine when used properly was totally adequate for 1939, or even 1945.  Computing power was not strong enough then to conquer that level of encryption.  Nowadays NSA's computers can probably crack Enigma-level encryption in real time once they  have a good-sized collection of messages to analyze.  Turing's bombes and follow-on machines developed at Bletchley Park were just about ready to pull the curtain completely off Enigma when the war ended and the British government decided to destroy all the machines.  They wanted the fact that they could break secret communications to be kept secret, and not much was known to the public about Turing's accomplishments until the '70s. 

A one-time pad will still always work, since it reduces a plaintext message to white noise.  The problem with those is the overhead required to distribute one-time pads (or, more properly, their digital equivalents) to all the message authors and receivers in the field.  There are some efforts to make pseudo-one-time pads by complicated methods so a sender and a receiver can get a new pad whenever they need one, but I don't know enough about those to describe them any more than that (and it's definitely classified anyway).

There are several websites that allow users to operate a virtual Enigma machine in order to get a good feel of how they operate.  I even wote my own simulator as a hobby exercise using a free C compiler when I retired.  I checked its operation against some of the online websites, but I didn't spend any time making a jazzy presentation page like those guys have done.









						The Enigma machine: Encrypt and decrypt online
					

The Enigma cipher machine is well known for the vital role it played during WWII. Alan Turing and his attempts to crack the Enigma machine code changed history. Nevertheless, many messages could not be decrypted until today.



					cryptii.com
				












						Enigma Machine Emulator - 101 Computing
					

The Enigma machines are a series of electro-mechanical rotor cipher machines. The first machines were invented at the end of World War I by German engineer Arthur Scherbius and were mainly used to protect commercial, diplomatic and military communication. Enigma machines became more and more...




					www.101computing.net


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

Your lies...


espola said:


> What lies?


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Your lies...


Did you get the answer yet?  Ask Izzy - he might stumble onto one correct answer because it is so obvious, despite his long-demonstrated lack of basic arithmetic skills.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

Because some people in here still think this guy has all his faculties..

:At the State Department, which is tasked with making formal determinations of genocide and war crimes through an independent legal process, two officials said that Biden’s seemingly offhand declaration during a domestic policy speech in Iowa on Tuesday made it harder for the agency to credibly do its job."


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Did you get the answer yet?  Ask Izzy - he might stumble onto the correct answer because it is so obvious, despite his long-demonstrated lack of basic arithmetic skills.


Keep trying Magoof...

Maybe put your "professional" cryptographer skills to use and hack another soccer website. Or maybe you can learn how your knowledge means nothing in today's crypto space. 

Or... maybe learn what the difference is between stare and compare and spying because you obviously don't know.

One can only hope...


----------



## espola (Apr 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Keep trying Magoof...
> 
> Maybe put your "professional" cryptographer skills to use and hack another soccer website. Or maybe you can learn how your knowledge means nothing in today's crypto space.
> 
> ...


And here we see how you work by watching one of your fables being created.  You accused me of hacking Dominic's website with no proof whatsoever, and now you are using that unfounded accusation as the basis for your "hack another website" jibe.

Please continue.  You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.


----------



## baldref (Apr 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did you want him to rehash the whole discussion? Lol! Typical coming from a trump humper  . . . ignore yours and demand full disclosure from theirs.


Seriously, are you his wife? Or lover?


----------



## crush (Apr 17, 2022)




----------



## crush (Apr 17, 2022)

BOOOM!!! EVERYONE WANTS TO BRING BACK TRUMP!!!
					

Mi Amigo Alex Stein (Primetime 99) talked to the Gay community to see what they think about Joe Biden... Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our




					rumble.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2022)

baldref said:


> Seriously, are you his wife? Or lover?


Oh isn’t that cute you display your homophobia and misogyny all together. A shrink could inform you as to why you have those fears.


----------



## crush (Apr 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> *Oh isn’t that cute* you display your homophobia and misogyny all together. A shrink could inform you as to why you have those fears.


Happy Easter Husker.  You write like Golden Gate.  Be honest with the group today for once.  Are you or are you not GG?  I will take you at your word.  Have a blessed and beautiful day.  Today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad.  I was at Stater Bros and one of my favorite checkers took her mask off for the first time ever.  She has the most beautiful smile and I told her that.  She teared up Husker.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2022)

crush said:


> Happy Easter Husker.  You write like Golden Gate.  Be honest with the group today for once.  Are you or are you not GG?  I will take you at your word.  Have a blessed and beautiful day.  Today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad.  I was at Stater Bros and one of my favorite checkers took her mask off for the first time ever.  She has the most beautiful smile and I told her that.  She teared up Husker.


Don’t be stupid.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Don’t be stupid.


You have stupid copyrighted....


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You have stupid copyrighted....


You’re still hurt after all these years . . . poor thing, I guess I should have left flowers.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 17, 2022)

espola said:


> And here we see how you work by watching one of your fables being created.  You accused me of hacking Dominic's website with no proof whatsoever, and now you are using that unfounded accusation as the basis for your "hack another website" jibe.
> 
> Please continue.  You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you.


Feeling guilty about something cryptographer?


----------



## espola (Apr 18, 2022)

This is the third year in a row that Biden will be releasing his tax returns to the public.  What kind of a President does he think he is, anyway?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 19, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re still hurt after all these years . . . poor thing, I guess I should have left flowers.


Your nose stuck in my ass has indeed left an impression...
Run along now.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 19, 2022)

espola said:


> This is the third year in a row that Biden will be releasing his tax returns to the public.  What kind of a President does he think he is, anyway?


Not sure Joe has any idea what he thinks...


----------



## crush (Apr 19, 2022)

*Biden tells Obama he's running in 2024: report*


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 19, 2022)

espola said:


> This is the third year in a row that Biden will be releasing his tax returns to the public.  What kind of a President does he think he is, anyway?


A lousy one. One that lies. One you voted for.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 20, 2022)

I think everyone realizes the democrats have really damaged their brand and are trying to figure out how to get the base excited so they don't stay home. But personally I question if the 'handout strategy' buys much loyalty. Personally I would advise him to focus more on quality leadership and less on political stunts. 

For example a better path than a tax-payer bailout would be to loosen the bankruptcy laws with regard to college loans. Colleges selling $200k sociology degrees was plainly a scam and personally I don't like seeing my tax dollars being spent bailing out a crooked system out. 









						Biden to Cancel Student Loans for 40,000: Here's Who Qualifies
					

"Student loans were never meant to be a life sentence, but it's certainly felt that way for borrowers locked out of debt relief," the Education Department said.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

Lot's more stuff has been found on HB's laptop from hell.  It appears that pops had his own file for taxes, pics and videos called, "Big Guy File." What a movie we have all been a part of the last 6 years.  I see where all this is going and thank God we have options and choices.  Their is some sic shit and evil in the files of the big guy.  I saw one that made me cry, no joke   No satire on this you guys.  The fun and poking and talking smack will soon end because of the kids. I know 99% of us want what's best for the kids and the elderly.  We all got so busy trying to survive and pay them bills that we lost sight of the kids and the elderly.  Look at how one side is treating kids and the elderly.  It's clear to see.  You are either a Slave, a paid Slave, a Serf or a Sacrifice.  We were all taught to make money first and pay our fair share.  We were told to work hard and then retire in paradise.  I know a small few who seem to have it good at 80 years old but 90% or more have either Cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinsons, heart disease, obesity, stroke, kidney issues, liver disease, addictions, booze, smoking and so much more.  I have never in my life noticed how sick people truly are and I'm not talking mentally either.  That is also through the roof.  I saw interview of some woman yesterday about trying to get to work at the courthouse in downtown LA without being chased by homeless people with mental illness from the parking garage to the courthouse.  They try and go in groups.  One business owner say's it's getting so bad he's moving to Florida.  So many were let out of prison with no job and no home.  This was in the play book fellas.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 20, 2022)

From the Wall Street Journal

*Biden’s Blame Game Will Raise Oil Prices*
*Democrats’ bluster about ‘corporate greed’ is scaring away the investors needed to expand energy supplies.*
By
James W. Coleman
April 13, 2022 6:40 pm ET

Instead of taking steps to boost U.S. oil and gas production amid skyrocketing prices and the war in Ukraine, President Biden is standing by his green-energy goals and blaming fossil-fuel companies for the consequences. This will make today’s energy problems even worse.

Though he campaigned on a promise to ban drilling on federal lands and waters, Mr. Biden’s administration now says oil companies aren’t drilling enough. Instead of “doing their part,” the president claims, too many U.S. fossil-fuel companies are “choosing to make extraordinary profits and without making additional investment with supply.”

Attributing high oil and gas prices to these companies’ greed and market power, the White House proposed new investigations into oil companies’ “anti-consumer behavior” last fall. At the end of March, the president also asked that Congress place extra fees on already-agreed federal oil and gas leases that the administration says aren’t being used. There’s nothing in these leases that obliges companies to drill and even those that want to and can afford to are often stuck waiting for further approval from the administration and courts.

On April 6, House Democrats took up the witch hunt, hauling oil executives before the Energy and Commerce Committee to accuse them of price gouging. Even sensible Democrats like former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers see through this nonsense. He noted recently that it doesn’t “make any sense at all to blame inflation on market power” and is “not serious economic reasoning.” He added that those who engage in those arguments “should be taken less seriously as a consequence.”

High energy prices are no more caused by corporate greed than the low oil prices of 2015-20 were the result of corporate generosity. Under previous administrations, drilling expanded rapidly as regulatory barriers were removed. The pandemic spurred a dramatic drop in oil demand, but it recovered more quickly than many expected. Supply lagged behind demand during 2021, with daily global oil production about two million barrels short of the world’s daily need of some 100 million barrels. Normally, higher oil prices would attract investment and spur expansion, leading to more drilling and, ultimately, prices falling. But the Biden administration’s antagonism toward fossil fuels stands in the way.

During his campaign, Mr. Biden promised to take extreme steps to crush the U.S. oil industry. Since entering office he has repeatedly paused new oil and gas permitting and leasing. Because America is the world’s largest producer of oil and gas, these policies and the threat of more hostile action have contributed to the global energy shortage and price increases. Both oil and gasoline prices roughly doubled in the U.S. from around the time Mr. Biden was elected in November 2020 to March 2022. In Europe, natural-gas and electricity prices have spiked to as much as 10 times what they were when the year began.

Even as Mr. Biden searches for ways to expand the global energy supply, he refuses to give up many of his green goals. In the past few weeks, the administration has been looking to get more oil from Canada but has insisted it won’t reconsider Mr. Biden’s decision to kill the Keystone XL pipeline.

The president also seems uninterested in reinstituting the permitting reforms he rolled back earlier in his administration, which were designed to speed up permitting for American energy infrastructure and production. Lenders don’t want to make long-term investments in an industry that seems to be on the president’s blacklist, unless the political risk the administration is imposing on new drilling can be justified by even bigger profits. This will in turn force consumers to pay even higher prices.

Democrats seem more interested in lashing out at energy executives than freeing up supply. Their excoriation of oil and gas companies, along with the added fees and threats of investigations, are scaring investors away. Last month congressional Democrats even called for a windfall-profits tax on oil companies, though oil profits aren’t high enough to bring in the investment required to fund new drilling.

The only way global economic growth can survive the current energy crisis is if investors believe the U.S. will pursue consistent and reasonable energy policies and allow companies to access America’s abundant energy supplies. Blaming oil companies for problems that aren’t their fault makes matters worse.

_Mr. Coleman is a nonresident senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and a law professor at Southern Methodist University._









						Opinion | Biden’s Blame Game Will Raise Oil Prices
					

Democrats’ bluster about ‘corporate greed’ is scaring away the investors needed to expand energy supplies.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## espola (Apr 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> From the Wall Street Journal
> 
> *Biden’s Blame Game Will Raise Oil Prices*
> *Democrats’ bluster about ‘corporate greed’ is scaring away the investors needed to expand energy supplies.*
> ...


Do you suppose Biden could do something meaningful like extractions from the strategic petroleum reserve or issuing new oil leases on federal-controlled land?


----------



## Brav520 (Apr 20, 2022)

Which is funny, because Psaki a couple months back said issuing new oil leases wouldn’t fix the issue 

guess they changed their mind


----------



## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

The Bull Durham wants to Use Hillary Clinton’s Tweet back in 2016 Accusing Trump of Having a Secret Line of Communication with Russian Alfa Bank as Evidence in Sussmann Trial- 
Hunter's lap top will be in public view in the public social square soon.  The D's are in big trouble.  Most of my D friends are now Independent. thinking and minded and now politically   I am "I" as well and side more on the libertarian side.  I am 100% for free speech that is honest from your heart.  Busted!!!


----------



## espola (Apr 20, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Which is funny, because Psaki a couple months back said issuing new oil leases wouldn’t fix the issue
> 
> guess they changed their mind


I believe she said that because the drillers were not drilling on their new leases.


----------



## blam (Apr 20, 2022)

Do not be so dumb. The easy way to isolate yourself from the high gas prices is to have purchased stocks in oil companies. The logic is easy. When the Western nations do not buy from Russia, the supply goes down. This gives a windfall to the gas companies. Wait...you did not buy? All this talk about drilling and stuff are for the rest of the population to think the government is doing something. The rest of us, buy stocks in the gas companies. You will make enough money there to offset the price you pay at the gas station.


----------



## Brav520 (Apr 20, 2022)

Unfortunately, timing the oil market is not really something 99.9999999999% of the population can do


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 20, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I think everyone realizes the democrats have really damaged their brand and are trying to figure out how to get the base excited so they don't stay home. But personally I question if the 'handout strategy' buys much loyalty. Personally I would advise him to focus more on quality leadership and less on political stunts.
> 
> For example a better path than a tax-payer bailout would be to loosen the bankruptcy laws with regard to college loans. Colleges selling $200k sociology degrees was plainly a scam and personally I don't like seeing my tax dollars being spent bailing out a crooked system out.
> 
> ...


I don't see this ever put into play. The Dems are playing a game of chicken.. hoping that enough voters believe this and turn out to vote for them. 

I just wonder though, if it does pass, how people who recently paid off their student loans will feel?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 20, 2022)

espola said:


> I believe she said that because the drillers were not drilling on their new leases.


Psaki is a tool...
Enjoy!









						Biden claimed 9,000 oil drilling permits are unused. That’s true, but all work can’t begin ‘right now’
					

There are more than 9,000 permits to drill oil on federal lands, as President Biden claimed. But a variety of factors are keeping that work from getting started.




					www.verifythis.com
				




*There are more than 9,000 permits to drill oil on federal lands, as President Biden claimed. But a variety of factors are keeping that work from getting started*.


----------



## espola (Apr 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Psaki is a tool...
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> ...


"It’s true that companies will sometimes sit on unused permits until it makes more financial sense. The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that since there isn’t a penalty for not using a drilling permit, some companies wait to begin drilling until oil prices are high enough to make it worth their while. One operator told the GAO that they would add a drilling rig if the price of oil increases and may suspend one if it decreases. Another said a permit may go unused if oil and gas prices are too low for them to turn a profit. "


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 20, 2022)

espola said:


> "It’s true that companies will sometimes sit on unused permits until it makes more financial sense. The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that since there isn’t a penalty for not using a drilling permit, some companies wait to begin drilling until oil prices are high enough to make it worth their while. One operator told the GAO that they would add a drilling rig if the price of oil increases and may suspend one if it decreases. Another said a permit may go unused if oil and gas prices are too low for them to turn a profit. "


When oil is at $125.00 a barrel the oil companies are gonna be pumping where they're able to pump...
"Sometimes" sitting  makes good business sense.
Sometimes.... "some of these leases are going through a “complex regulatory process or are held up in litigation.” Western Energy Alliance, which represents hundreds of companies involved in the exploration and production of oil and natural gas, says on its website that it is defending more than 2,200 leases in court, most of which cannot be developed while the cases are ongoing. 
Sometimes....“Federal leases…are subject to environmental studies. They're also subject to lawsuits filed by neighbors, by municipalities, by counties and state governments. And so it's become a more arduous process,”
Sometimes.....pipelines are cancelled, materials are backlogged, work forces are low...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 20, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you suppose Biden could do something meaningful like extractions from the strategic petroleum reserve or issuing new oil leases on federal-controlled land?


9,000 drilling permits issued that aren’t being used?









						Gas prices are high. Oil CEOs reveal why they're not drilling more
					

If U.S. oil companies and OPEC fail to ramp up output, analysts have warned that energy prices will likely stay painfully high.




					www.kcra.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 21, 2022)

Bless his little heart....


----------



## crush (Apr 22, 2022)

ADIOS, JOE!!!
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


----------



## tenacious (Apr 22, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Psaki is a tool...
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know. Current prices are higher than anyone could have imagined... so I'm skeptical that anyone with skin in the game (i.e. has paid for a lease, permits, etc.), isn't pumping with everything they've got under present market conditions. And when I hear of people not drilling, that makes no economic sense to me. It's like hearing there is no gravity in some small section of Nebraska.  So.. I for one am not opposed hearing an explanation as to why? Especially given the importance of oil to the nations security.

Where I worry is Biden is so vulnerable politically that instead of rising to the moment and talking about the nations energy policy, or push for a bi-partisan deal he goes for the cheap political points. Yet I also understand the lefties would high-jack the process with all their Green New Deal 'pie in the sky' talk and slogans (plus there is no way they would let a moderate like Biden score an environmental victory). So it's as if in one of those weird Washington ways, vilifying the oil industry is all the only path open to Biden that offers any sort of path that has the possibility of a political win.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 22, 2022)

I think anyone with common sense understands that having seen how fast Disney and the rest of the entertainment industry caved when it came to bowing to Chinese pressure, it was only a matter of time until they would be brought to heel by someone here in the states too. Hopefully this guy knows what he's doing and the folks living around that park aren't going to see their lively-hoods take a backseat to an elected officials ego.

Although again I understand that in some weird Washington way that since DeSantis is going after the Trump vote.... he's going to have to bring the crazy. Hopefully this is only that- posturing.









						Biden on Florida's 'Don't Say Gay' law: 'What the hell is going on here?'
					

At a Democratic fundraiser in Seattle on Thursday, the president weighed in on the feud between Florida Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis and the Walt Disney Co. over a law banning teachers from holding classroom instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## tenacious (Apr 22, 2022)

Oh and last but not least... maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. But whereas maybe someone like DeSantis has a chance at unseating Trump, McCarthy isn't going to even make so much as a whimper when Trump moves to squash his political career.  My two cents anyway.









						Kevin McCarthy heard on tape saying he would urge Donald Trump to resign after Capitol riot
					

The House Republican leader is heard discussing the Democratic effort to remove Trump from office and saying he would tell Trump, “I think it will pass and it would be my recommendation he should resign.”




					www.cleveland.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 22, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I don't know. Current prices are higher than anyone could have imagined... so I'm skeptical that anyone with skin in the game (i.e. has paid for a lease, permits, etc.), isn't pumping with everything they've got under present market conditions. And when I hear of people not drilling, that makes no economic sense to me. It's like hearing there is no gravity in some small section of Nebraska.  So.. I for one am not opposed hearing an explanation as to why? Especially given the importance of oil to the nations security.
> 
> Where I worry is Biden is so vulnerable politically that instead of rising to the moment and talking about the nations energy policy, or push for a bi-partisan deal he goes for the cheap political points. Yet I also understand the lefties would high-jack the process with all their Green New Deal 'pie in the sky' talk and slogans (plus there is no way they would let a moderate like Biden score an environmental victory). So it's as if in one of those weird Washington ways, vilifying the oil industry is all the only path open to Biden that offers any sort of path that has the possibility of a political win.


2.7 degrees Fahrenheit that’s all it takes.


----------



## crush (Apr 23, 2022)

*Hunter with one of his his business partners, The Big Guy.  Get the popcorn out folks and sit back and watch the movie.  What a script.  I must say the actors are doing amazing.  *



*President Biden met with Hunter Biden business partner at White House in 2010 as VP: Report*
*Meeting with Joe Biden was one of 19 visits Eric Schwerin paid to the White House, according to visitor logs*

Hunter Biden's most prominent investment partner had an official sit-down with Vice President Joe Biden in 2010.

Eric Schwerin, president of the Rosemont Seneca firm, met with Biden while Biden was serving as vice president under former President Barack Obama,


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 23, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I don't know. Current prices are higher than anyone could have imagined... so I'm skeptical that anyone with skin in the game (i.e. has paid for a lease, permits, etc.), isn't pumping with everything they've got under present market conditions. And when I hear of people not drilling, that makes no economic sense to me. It's like hearing there is no gravity in some small section of Nebraska.  So.. I for one am not opposed hearing an explanation as to why? Especially given the importance of oil to the nations security.
> 
> Where I worry is Biden is so vulnerable politically that instead of rising to the moment and talking about the nations energy policy, or push for a bi-partisan deal he goes for the cheap political points. Yet I also understand the lefties would high-jack the process with all their Green New Deal 'pie in the sky' talk and slogans (plus there is no way they would let a moderate like Biden score an environmental victory). So it's as if in one of those weird Washington ways, vilifying the oil industry is all the only path open to Biden that offers any sort of path that has the possibility of a political win.


What was feared has come to pass...

*Biden Makes Sweeping Changes to Oil and Gas Policy*
January 28, 2021

President Joe Biden has followed through on a campaign pledge by introducing a moratorium on new oil and gas leasing on federal lands and waters. With nearly 25 percent of U.S. oil and gas production coming from federal lands, the policy shift may have significant implications for future investment and production. The backlash from oil and gas producing states will be fierce and lawsuits have already begun, but the Biden administration views this policy as a key part of its climate agenda and is unlikely to change course. ...

...Industry associations object to Biden’s executive orders, arguing that they will deter investment, kill jobs, reduce state revenues, and shift oil and gas production to other countries. ...










						Biden Makes Sweeping Changes to Oil and Gas Policy
					

President Joe Biden has followed through on a campaign pledge by introducing a moratorium on new oil and gas leasing on federal lands and waters. With nearly 25 percent of U.S. oil and gas production coming from federal lands, the policy shift may have significant implications for future...




					www.csis.org


----------



## tenacious (Apr 24, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> What was feared has come to pass...
> 
> *Biden Makes Sweeping Changes to Oil and Gas Policy*
> January 28, 2021
> ...


Looks like that article is pre Ukraine invasion. Currently aside from talking tough and staged political theater in Congress to appease the far lefties, I have a hard time believing Biden actually policy involves begging Venezuela for oil while knee-capping American owned companies. But he has proven of doing stupid things in the past so who the heck knows. The American lefts energy policy seems to be based on taking us back to year zero...

As someone who would support environmental reform it's a bit disheartening to see how dysfunctional the democratic party has become. Sort of like when Republicans talk about not liking deficit spending... you can't believe anything the dems say anymore. They have become a parody of themselves.


----------



## crush (Apr 24, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Looks like that article is pre Ukraine invasion. Currently aside from talking tough and staged political theater in Congress to appease the far lefties, I have a hard time believing Biden actually policy involves begging Venezuela for oil while knee-capping American owned companies. But he has proven of doing stupid things in the past so who the heck knows. The American lefts energy policy seems to be based on taking us back to year zero...
> 
> As someone who would support environmental reform it's a bit disheartening to see how dysfunctional the democratic party has become. Sort of like when Republicans talk about not liking deficit spending... you can't believe anything the dems say anymore. They have become a parody of themselves.


Did you hear about all the food processing plants catching on fire recently?


----------



## crush (Apr 24, 2022)

*Pay to Play

*​


----------



## crush (Apr 25, 2022)

@Hüsker Dü Please watch 2000 Mules and ask Espola what he thinks about cheating.  I think I finally figured out why people thought it was ok to cheat on Trump.  They were sold from Tel A Vision that t was a Nazi, was partners with Putin, had sex with a group of Moscow prostitutes and then peed all over the place afterwards.  This was mainstream media at it;s finest.  James from the FBI even went to the WH to let t know that word on the street was it might be true and Comey had to ask the tough question, "did you do it Mr. president?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 25, 2022)

crush said:


> @Hüsker Dü Please watch 2000 Mules and ask Espola what he thinks about cheating.  I think I finally figured out why people thought it was ok to cheat on Trump.  They were sold from Tel A Vision that t was a Nazi, was partners with Putin, had sex with a group of Moscow prostitutes and then peed all over the place afterwards.  This was mainstream media at it;s finest.  James from the FBI even went to the WH to let t know that word on the street was it might be true and Comey had to ask the tough question, "did you do it Mr. president?


No thanks, I’m not that stupid nor gullible. Democracy is fragile, stop trying to help blow it up.


----------



## crush (Apr 25, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No thanks, I’m not that stupid nor gullible. Democracy is fragile, *stop trying to help blow it up.*


Blow up Democracy?  Your side is blowing itself up and does not need my help blowing up your mess that your side made.  The lap tops from hell are insane and full of emails, texts, pics and video mines.  Check this mine out Husker Du. 

*Hunter Biden demanded Beau Biden's widow 'GET TESTED FOR HIV,' 2018 email reveals*
*'You need to inform me of the result. TODAY,' Hunter Biden wrote in July 2018*


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 25, 2022)

crush said:


> Blow up Democracy?  Your side is blowing itself up and does not need my help blowing up your mess that your side made.  The lap tops from hell are insane and full of emails, texts, pics and video mines.  Check this mine out Husker Du.
> 
> *Hunter Biden demanded Beau Biden's widow 'GET TESTED FOR HIV,' 2018 email reveals*
> *'You need to inform me of the result. TODAY,' Hunter Biden wrote in July 2018*


You believe some crazy ass shit! Take a walk. You need to start assessing people by what they do not the letter behind their name. I can list a few Republicans that I would be proud to have as president. Can you do likewise with Dems, Independents, Green Party or anyone else?


----------



## crush (Apr 25, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You believe some crazy ass shit! Take a walk. You need to start assessing people by what they do not the letter behind their name. I can list a few Republicans that I would be proud to have as president. Can you do likewise with Dems, Independents, Green Party or anyone else?


*Biden's call to Macron goes unanswered on election night*
*Macron was reportedly 'having a good time at the Eiffel Tower' when Biden called*


----------



## whatithink (Apr 25, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I don't know. Current prices are higher than anyone could have imagined... so I'm skeptical that anyone with skin in the game (i.e. has paid for a lease, permits, etc.), isn't pumping with everything they've got under present market conditions. And when I hear of people not drilling, that makes no economic sense to me. It's like hearing there is no gravity in some small section of Nebraska.  So.. I for one am not opposed hearing an explanation as to why? Especially given the importance of oil to the nations security.
> 
> Where I worry is Biden is so vulnerable politically that instead of rising to the moment and talking about the nations energy policy, or push for a bi-partisan deal he goes for the cheap political points. Yet I also understand the lefties would high-jack the process with all their Green New Deal 'pie in the sky' talk and slogans (plus there is no way they would let a moderate like Biden score an environmental victory). So it's as if in one of those weird Washington ways, vilifying the oil industry is all the only path open to Biden that offers any sort of path that has the possibility of a political win.


There's lots of reasons in the article as to why drilling isn't going on. There's also the fact that with oil prices as high as they are, oil companies are making record profits. Where's the incentive to increase supply and drive down prices, when you are making record profits? The oil isn't going anywhere. 

From a national security perspective, it actually makes sense to leave it there too and use someone else's. That's a balancing act, but we never want to be in a situation where we've used all our oil and we are reliant on external sources.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> There's lots of reasons in the article as to why drilling isn't going on. There's also the fact that with oil prices as high as they are, oil companies are making record profits. Where's the incentive to increase supply and drive down prices, when you are making record profits? The oil isn't going anywhere.
> 
> From a national security perspective, it actually makes sense to leave it there too and use someone else's. That's a balancing act, but we never want to be in a situation where we've used all our oil and we are reliant on external sources.


Hmm... a couple of nice looking "what ifs" you snuck there. Yes we might run out of oil, but today we are the worlds largest oil producer. (Or maybe second, it fluctuates between us, Russia and Saudi Arabia

Also yes it is possible that despite oil currently pushing record highs, that industry insiders know something... which is prompting them to not drill so they can reap even higher prices down the road. But in actuality were heading into summer (when less oil is used) and Russia doesn't have the money to extend the war in Ukraine until next winter. So I'd say it's more likely that folks aren't pumping on this leased land because they know they won't get the oil out of the ground before prices go back down.
Which makes me wonder why they don't just say that... why the smoke and mirrors about higher prices? Something smells fishy to me with how this is being frame. And that brings me back to us as a nation presently being totally dependent on access to oil supplies, and the need for government oversight because of that.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 26, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Hmm... a couple of nice looking "what ifs" you snuck there. Yes we might run out of oil, but today we are the worlds largest oil producer. (Or maybe second, it fluctuates between us, Russia and Saudi Arabia
> 
> Also yes it is possible that despite oil currently pushing record highs, that industry insiders know something... which is prompting them to not drill so they can reap even higher prices down the road. But in actuality were heading into summer (when less oil is used) and Russia doesn't have the money to extend the war in Ukraine until next winter. So I'd say it's more likely that folks aren't pumping on this leased land because they know they won't get the oil out of the ground before prices go back down.
> Which makes me wonder why they don't just say that... why the smoke and mirrors about higher prices? Something smells fishy to me with how this is being frame. And that brings me back to us as a nation presently being totally dependent on access to oil supplies, and the need for government oversight because of that.


I'm pretty sure that gas prices always go up in the summer, due to higher demand when we hit the road on vacation. That said, I noted that my local Costco regular was 0.40 a gallon cheaper at the weekend than a few weeks ago. I'm not convinced by the whole conspiracy thing, gas prices have been rising for the last year or more and the Ukraine invasion triggered a surge.

There's also the question of refining capacity, which I know nothing about, but drilling and pumping more crude has to be matched by increased refining capacity ... so if you don't have the latter, then there's no point.


----------



## crush (Apr 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure that gas prices always go up in the summer, due to higher demand when we hit the road on vacation. That said, I noted that my local Costco regular was 0.40 a gallon cheaper at the weekend than a few weeks ago. I'm not convinced by the whole conspiracy thing, gas prices have been rising for the last year or more and the *Ukraine invasion triggered a surge.*
> 
> There's also the question of refining capacity, which I know nothing about, but drilling and pumping more crude has to be matched by increased refining capacity ... so if you don't have the latter, then there's no point.


No, it triggered fear, which causes folks to panic and freak out and drive up the price.  Under t, we had control of our own oil and energy.  JB and his Son ruined our country as did other crime families.  The world is run by a few families and their bloodlines.  These families want a New World Order, everyone jabbed and One Happy World, where you own nothing and are happy   I kind of like the sound of that if no one owns me.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 26, 2022)

Say it ain't so Joe...

"Deutsche Bank raised eyebrows earlier this month by becoming the first major bank to forecast a US recession, albeit a "mild" one.
Now, it's warning of a deeper downturn caused by the Federal Reserve's quest to knock down stubbornly high inflation.
"We will get a major recession," Deutsche Bank economists wrote in a report to clients on Tuesday."


----------



## tenacious (Apr 27, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I'm pretty sure that gas prices always go up in the summer, due to higher demand when we hit the road on vacation. That said, I noted that my local Costco regular was 0.40 a gallon cheaper at the weekend than a few weeks ago. I'm not convinced by the whole conspiracy thing, gas prices have been rising for the last year or more and the Ukraine invasion triggered a surge.
> 
> There's also the question of refining capacity, which I know nothing about, but drilling and pumping more crude has to be matched by increased refining capacity ... so if you don't have the latter, then there's no point.


My understanding is that in the colder months, much of the country still uses oil to heat their homes and for hot water. So in terms of consumption of oil the months where folks are driving and heating their house would be the time where fuel was in high demand.

As for summer gas price fluctuations, doesn't that have more to do with the number of refineries that were setup to refine crude into gasoline? Refiners don't want to create extra gas beyond what will be needed; so those weekends where the weather is nice and everyone wants to drive somewhere demand can exceed the supply that was anticipated. So the price goes up.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Say it ain't so Joe...
> 
> "Deutsche Bank raised eyebrows earlier this month by becoming the first major bank to forecast a US recession, albeit a "mild" one.
> Now, it's warning of a deeper downturn caused by the Federal Reserve's quest to knock down stubbornly high inflation.
> "We will get a major recession," Deutsche Bank economists wrote in a report to clients on Tuesday."


Ive started watching CNBC in the mornings and they have been dropping the R word for weeks. The Fed is going to have to try and slow the stock market if they want to try and tame inflation... so short term you'd expect stocks to go down.

Since I've been playing like I'm an expert on everything this morning let me take a moment to make the caveat that professional I'm a television editor and not a oil expert or stock market guru (i.e. don't invest your retirement on my stock tips). But my two cents are Jay Powell has been pretty good so far? So I'm hopeful for a soft landing. If folks were to take their money out of the market... where would they put it? Bonds? Real Estate? Under their mattress? Hmm... considering the alternatives the market doesn't look too bad.


----------



## espola (Apr 27, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Ive started watching CNBC in the mornings and they have been dropping the R word for weeks. The Fed is going to have to try and slow the stock market if they want to try and tame inflation... so short term you'd expect stocks to go down.
> 
> Since I've been playing like I'm an expert on everything this morning let me take a moment to make the caveat that professional I'm a television editor and not a oil expert or stock market guru (i.e. don't invest your retirement on my stock tips). But my two cents are Jay Powell has been pretty good so far? So I'm hopeful for a soft landing. If folks were to take their money out of the market... where would they put it? Bonds? Real Estate? Under their mattress? Hmm... considering the alternatives the market doesn't look too bad.


People here encourage cryptocurrency.  Or is that considered to be part of "the market" now? 

BTW, crypto, just like any bubble-based investment vehicle, will do just fine until too many people want to cash out.  Since there are no fundamental objects of value, the fall will be as limitless as the rise.


----------



## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Ive started watching CNBC in the mornings and they have been dropping the R word for weeks. The Fed is going to have to try and slow the stock market if they want to try and tame inflation... so short term you'd expect stocks to go down.
> 
> Since I've been playing like I'm an expert on everything this morning let me take a moment to make the caveat that professional I'm a television editor and not a oil expert or stock market guru (i.e. don't invest your retirement on my stock tips). But my two cents are Jay Powell has been pretty good so far? So I'm hopeful for a soft landing. If folks were to take their money out of the market... where would they put it? Bonds? Real Estate? Under their mattress? Hmm... considering the alternatives the market doesn't look too bad.


My wife worked as editor of news with Anderson Cooper back in the day.  This was way before his big start at CNN.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 27, 2022)

White House adviser Cedric Richmond confirmed Tuesday that he will depart President Biden’s staff for a position at the Democratic National Committee — shortly after reporting that he called left-wing Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib “f—ing idiots.”


----------



## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> White House adviser Cedric Richmond confirmed Tuesday that he will depart President Biden’s staff for a position at the Democratic National Committee — shortly after reporting that he called left-wing Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib “f—ing idiots.”


I found your baby pic....lol


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 27, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Ive started watching CNBC in the mornings and they have been dropping the R word for weeks. The Fed is going to have to try and slow the stock market if they want to try and tame inflation... so short term you'd expect stocks to go down.
> 
> Since I've been playing like I'm an expert on everything this morning let me take a moment to make the caveat that professional I'm a television editor and not a oil expert or stock market guru (i.e. don't invest your retirement on my stock tips). But my two cents are Jay Powell has been pretty good so far? So I'm hopeful for a soft landing. If folks were to take their money out of the market... where would they put it? Bonds? Real Estate? Under their mattress? Hmm... considering the alternatives the market doesn't look too bad.


I've always viewed dips in the market as sales and feel the same about other markets now too.

Not an analyst but I just finished an Amazon Grocery store. The tech in the store is amazing and very protected and guarded.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> White House adviser Cedric Richmond confirmed Tuesday that he will depart President Biden’s staff for a position at the Democratic National Committee — shortly after reporting that he called left-wing Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib “f—ing idiots.”


Same was said about trump by many very close to him, so there’s that. I must say you simply ooze hate, feelings of victimhood, with a strong penchant for vengeance. A woman scorned on steroids.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 27, 2022)

tenacious said:


> My understanding is that in the colder months, much of the country still uses oil to heat their homes and for hot water. So in terms of consumption of oil the months where folks are driving and heating their house would be the time where fuel was in high demand.
> 
> As for summer gas price fluctuations, doesn't that have more to do with the number of refineries that were setup to refine crude into gasoline? Refiners don't want to create extra gas beyond what will be needed; so those weekends where the weather is nice and everyone wants to drive somewhere demand can exceed the supply that was anticipated. So the price goes up.


Prices go up every summer, so I think its just a question of raising the price point in the knowledge that people will pay. It would be a major "miss" of a corporation to not be able to anticipate demand every summer, forever. And its not like there's ever a shortage or a fear of a shortage.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 27, 2022)

*SUMMER GASOLINE*
In the warmer months, gasoline has a greater chance of evaporating from your car’s fuel system. This can produce additional smog and increased emissions. Refiners reduce the chance of gas evaporation in your car during the summer by producing gasoline blends that have lower Reid vapor pressure (RVP), or lower volatility. These blends vary from state-to-state, region-to-region due to RVP state regulations. They also vary by octane level. 

*Cost for your wallet: *According to NACS, this higher-grade fuel can add up to 15 cents per gallon to the cost of your fill-up. This excludes the increased cost due to summer fuel demand, which can vary between 5-15c/gal, depending on region. More stringent requirements (like California) can mean an even higher cost.









						The Difference Between Summer-Blend and Winter-Blend Gasoline
					

We’re talking about the cost differences between summer and winter gasoline along with how to save money on your fill-up.




					www.gasbuddy.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 27, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Same was said about trump by many very close to him, so there’s that. I must say you simply ooze hate, feelings of victimhood, with a strong penchant for vengeance. A woman scorned on steroids.


Oooo.. did you have your thesaurus next to you for that post Sunshine? Careful now. Using multi syllable words might give you a headache...


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 27, 2022)

crush said:


> I found your baby pic....lol
> View attachment 13391


I was a cuter baby...


----------



## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I was a cuter baby...


I was adopted so none for me....lol!  I still cried but just for a hug and some love.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 28, 2022)

WTF?


*Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas testified Wednesday that a "Disinformation Governance Board" had recently been created to combat online disinformation.*


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 28, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> WTF?
> 
> 
> *Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas testified Wednesday that a "Disinformation Governance Board" had recently been created to combat online disinformation.*


They are preparing to go after Twitter... getting their "tweets" in a row.


----------



## crush (Apr 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> They are preparing to go after Twitter... getting their "tweets" in a row.


It's called "The truth dept"


----------



## Brav520 (Apr 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519698983513432065


----------



## crush (Apr 28, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519698983513432065


"America, we got a big problem."


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 28, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519698983513432065


This dude is a disgrace...


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> This dude is a disgrace...


----------



## what-happened (Apr 29, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519698983513432065


So hard to watch...memory care professionals everywhere are shaking their head. It's getting harder and harder to cover this up.  Change of pace, time zones, location, noise, can be hard on people like biden.


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

what-happened said:


> So hard to watch...memory care professionals everywhere are shaking their head. It's getting harder and harder to cover this up.  Change of pace, time zones, location, noise, can be hard on people like biden.


It's not the same Joe.  This guy is an actor 100%.


----------



## what-happened (Apr 29, 2022)

crush said:


> It's not the same Joe.  This guy is an actor 100%.


This is the today's real joe.  The actor  (politician) is a good 5 years removed.  The decline has been rather sharp.  Pressure, lack of sleep, etc - all impact his decline.   He's in a bad spot.


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

what-happened said:


> This is the today's real joe.  The actor  (politician) is a good 5 years removed.  The decline has been rather sharp.  Pressure, lack of sleep, etc - all impact his decline.   He's in a bad spot.


My pal on the left has nothing to say to me now.  After 6 years of BS, spying, lying and cheating he tells me today he doesn't want to talk politics, mask or jabs anymore.  He is afraid of free speech for some reason.


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

*Joe's new disinformation Czar said that Hunters Lap Top from Hell was just a made up story and is a just a little fairy tail.  TGIFF everyone. Stay close to your loved one's and stay even closer to your enemies   She reminds me of my first sales manager boss Jackie.  Oh my, she was on me and she felt I was a slacker from Socal.  She grew up mid west and worked 60 hours a week as manager of the managers and expected me to work 60 hours a week as well as her new disciple manager in training.  I only worked 25 hours a week as a salesman because I hit my numbers.  I got tricked into management with a promise of big salary and bonuses.  What they didnt say was the boss lady wanted 35 more hours a week from me and I told her my family is way more important and I leave at 5.  She got all red in the face and lost her cool with me.  Close the door and said some mean stuff to me.  She went to her boss to complain and he transferred me to Riverside where I got to run my own office and I killed it.  He told me my old boss was a big B, from the old school and the reason for all the turnover in the company.  Total gossip too and just a mean lady.  It's still one of my all time classic work stories.  *


----------



## Brav520 (Apr 29, 2022)

crush said:


> View attachment 13412
> 
> *Joe's new disinformation Czar said that Hunters Lap Top from Hell was just a made up story and is a just a little fairy tail.  TGIFF everyone. Stay close to your loved one's and stay even closer to your enemies   She reminds me of my first sales manager boss Jackie.  Oh my, she was on me and she felt I was a slacker from Socal.  She grew up mid west and worked 60 hours a week as a manager and expected me to work 60 hours a week as well as her new disciple manager in training.  I only worked 25 hours a week as a salesman because I hit my numbers.  I got tricked into management with a promise of big salary and bonuses.  What they didnt say was the boss lady wanted 35 more hours a week from me and I told her my family is way more important and I leave at 5.  She got all red in the face and lost her cool with me.  Close the door and said some mean stuff to me.  She went to her boss to complain and he transferred me to Riverside where I got to run my own office and I killed it.  He told me my old boss was a big B, from the old school and the reason for all the turnover in the company.  Total gossip too and just a mean lady.  It's still one of my all time classic work stories.  *




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519874519015608320


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519874519015608320


My boss lady was crazy during the day and after 9/11/01 Brav.  She wrote me up for staying home that day and the next day.  My son was 5 months old and my wife and I thought planes were flying around as bombs.  She told me what happens on the East Coast is their problem, we have to work. She said to use the attack as ICR when you walk into a business trying to sell them ad space in the directory.  I told her to go ahead and write me up. Of course she lost that battle with HR and she looked like a complete fool and work acholic.


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 29, 2022)

Ministry of Truth..yea.

"So now they've created this body that'll do two things. Number one, it will work through the mainstream media and flood the airwaves with whatever propaganda message that they're pushing at any given time and try to drown out anyone with alternate views. And number two, they will silence dissenting voices through intimidation. This isn't something new, this is something they have already been doing. The only difference is they're formalizing it, making it official. The silver lining in this is they are revealing exactly who they are."


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 29, 2022)

President Biden said he is "taking a hard look" into forgiving some federal student loan debt on Thursday, but the amount he is considering is less than $50,000 per borrower, lower than some top Democrats have been seeking since he took office. 

He will forgive debt if it gets Dems elected.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 29, 2022)

Below is a picture of a well known Ministry of Public Enlightenment & Propaganda
He regulated culture, mass media and disinformation.
Our DHS Disinformation Governance Board will be led by disinformation expert Nina Jankowicz.


----------



## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

Only three other Govermemts had a Ministry of Truth and one retired Navy Avatar
Adolf Hitler-- Ministry of Truth
Joseph Goebbels- Minstry of Truth
Joseph Stalin- Ministry of Truth
Joseph Biden- Ministry of Truth
Joseph Espola- Ministry of Online Truth


----------



## Multi Sport (Apr 29, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Below is a picture of a well known Ministry of Public Enlightenment & Propaganda
> He regulated culture, mass media and disinformation.
> Our DHS Disinformation Governance Board will be led by disinformation expert Nina Jankowicz.
> 
> ...


And she's already been caught in a lie..


----------



## tenacious (Apr 30, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519874519015608320


Well... in fairness to her, if I was going to pick someone to police the internet, it would probably be someone who has that first grade teacher vibe too. A little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down... the medicine go down.

Kidding aside through, I don't see where Biden is going with this? If he's really looking to fix the internet then he'd have come at this in a bipartisan way. But to come at it like this reeks of pandering to the 'anyone who doesn't wear a mask at all times doesn't believe in science' crowd. Woof. I get that his mental state is plainly declining so there must be fears on the effects of surrounding him with people who he trusts less; but he needs better advise.


----------



## tenacious (Apr 30, 2022)

While Biden might have a blue collar background, his base is plainly college educated white collar folks. If he's getting so desperate that he's giving college grads an extra $10k this year to get them excited about supporting him... dems are in ever worse trouble than I thought.   









						Biden eyes long-awaited student debt relief starting at $10,000 per borrower
					

President Biden plans to move forward with student loan debt forgiveness, with two sources telling The Hill he is considering action to expunge at least $10,000 per borrower. The debt forgiveness w…




					thehill.com


----------



## crush (Apr 30, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Below is a picture of a well known Ministry of Public Enlightenment & Propaganda
> He regulated culture, mass media and disinformation.
> Our DHS Disinformation Governance Board will be led by disinformation expert Nina Jankowicz.
> 
> ...


We live among spies, snitches and back stabbers.


tenacious said:


> While Biden might have a blue collar background, his base is plainly college educated white collar folks. If he's getting so desperate that he's giving college grads an extra $10k this year to get them excited about supporting him... dems are in ever worse trouble than I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paying people to turn the other cheek is easy.  Back stabbers do real well also and if you can snitch, cheat and be a spy and lie about it, big money is coming your way.  I didn;t play pay to play and almost lost it all.  I stayed firm and would not give in to the bribes like so many others have, because of fear of loss and no job and no money.  My son owes some loan and he would be stoked for forgiveness.  He also thinks his pal Zach should be forgiven of his truck loan and all his tools he had to pay for to become election.  The fact we brain washed all the kids that they better go to college or their losers is what's wrong with so many on this froum.


----------



## crush (Apr 30, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Well... in fairness to her, if I was going to pick someone to police the internet, it would probably be someone who has that first grade teacher vibe too. A little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down... the medicine go down.
> 
> Kidding aside through, I don't see where Biden is going with this? If he's really looking to fix the internet then he'd have come at this in a bipartisan way. But to come at it like this reeks of pandering to the 'anyone who doesn't wear a mask at all times doesn't believe in science' crowd. Woof. I get that his mental state is plainly declining so there must be fears on the effects of surrounding him with people who he trusts less; but he needs better advise.


When t win's in 2024, he will be appointing Alex as his new Truth Minister.  Two can play this stupid game....lol!  My lib pal is losing his ego as each day passes and it's so fun to watch.  He asked me where he should go to church tomorrow.  Dude never goes to church and now is looking for answers.  I told him I have some ideas for beginners


----------



## crush (May 1, 2022)

*"Ever since you came into office, things are already looking up," Noah said in his remarks. "Gas is up, rent is up, food is up."









						This Sh*t Ain't Funny, Joe
					

Biden laughs at Trevor Noah joking about inflation during the White House Correspondent's Dinner 2022.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/…




					www.bitchute.com
				



*


----------



## Multi Sport (May 3, 2022)

Dems must be loving the JV team...

Polling released last week by the University of New Hampshire showed the Democratic incumbent in a statistical dead heat among likely voters with three of the best-known Republicans running against her. (The strongest potential Republican candidate -- Gov. Chris Sununu -- shocked the political world in November when he announced that he would not run for Senate.) The New Hampshire Senate seat is currently ranked as the sixth most likely to switch parties.


----------



## espola (May 3, 2022)

espola said:


> You're as bad as Izzy.  Even when shown the answer in plain English, you still reject it.  I haven't totally abandoned the possibility that you actually are Izzy, posting under another name.
> 
> Here is a simple math question that Izzy will fail -- what is the 8th root of 1?  (Careful now, there is more than one correct answer).


@Multi Sport  ... I've given you time to consider your answer. Let's see if you've done your homework and can answer the question. The question is...  What is the 8th root of 1? 

Here is a clue that may or may not help you -- there are 8 correct answers (as one would expect in an 8th root solution, with the added complication that all 8 roots are distinct when viewed in the appropriate discipline).


----------



## tenacious (May 4, 2022)

So... regarding this abortion ruling from the Supreme Court. I'd imagine that everyone has an opinion, but whats striking to me is that on my facebook feed, outside of 'outspoken progressive types' I don't see a single one of my Latino or Black friends speaking out on the issue.

Me thinks the blue coast elites are about to find out, that despite all the head patting and give aways, the new found democratic coalition is a lot more religious (i.e. anti abortion) than themselves... and are going have zero tangible response to this besides arm flapping and symbolic votes in congress.


----------



## espola (May 4, 2022)

espola said:


> @Multi Sport  ... I've given you time to consider your answer. Let's see if you've done your homework and can answer the question. The question is...  What is the 8th root of 1?
> 
> Here is a clue that may or may not help you -- there are 8 correct answers (as one would expect in an 8th root solution, with the added complication that all 8 roots are distinct when viewed in the appropriate discipline).


Here is one of the more obscure results --





__





						(((sqrt(2))/2)*(-1+i))^8 - Symbolab
					

Free Complex Numbers Calculator - Simplify complex expressions using algebraic rules step-by-step




					www.symbolab.com


----------



## espola (May 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> So... regarding this abortion ruling from the Supreme Court. I'd imagine that everyone has an opinion, but whats striking to me is that on my facebook feed, outside of 'outspoken progressive types' I don't see a single one of my Latino or Black friends speaking out on the issue.
> 
> Me thinks the blue coast elites are about to find out, that despite all the head patting and give aways, the new found democratic coalition is a lot more religious (i.e. anti abortion) than themselves... and are going have zero tangible response to this besides arm flapping and symbolic votes in congress.


Interesting -- a judgment based on a survey with n = 0.


----------



## tenacious (May 4, 2022)

espola said:


> Interesting -- a judgment based on a survey with n = 0.


At this point that's the only info I have with which to judge and I was straight forward that I was only offering an opinion based on my experience. As for the facts... I see from your post you don't seem to have any either. I assume thats because like democratic leaders your plan is to be very angry while offering no thoughts or solutions of substance?


----------



## crush (May 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> So... regarding this abortion ruling from the Supreme Court. I'd imagine that everyone has an opinion, but whats striking to me is that on my facebook feed, outside of 'outspoken progressive types' I don't see a single one of my Latino or Black friends speaking out on the issue.
> 
> Me thinks the blue coast elites are about to find out, that despite all the head patting and give aways, the new found democratic coalition is a lot more religious (i.e. anti abortion) than themselves... and are going have zero tangible response to this besides arm flapping and symbolic votes in congress.


The fact is, it's not a ruling yet.  It's a draft that got leaked by a leaker.  I do think Roe will be overturned.  All it comes down to is putting the babies life into the hands of each State and not Plan for Parent in the Hood.  No Fed funds.  13 States already have a trigger that will 100% make it illegal to kill your baby.  Some States will 100% make it illegal if this draft is the actual ruling.  Judges can be pressured to change their vote so let's not get all emotional either way for either side of this debate about life and death, right?  Some States will allow you to abort up to 6 months so their is a way but it will cost more and be inconvenient to have to go to another State to abort your baby.  These are very tough talks that most don;t want to chat about.  However, human life is on the line and some folks need to speak on behalf of the baby in the womb.  We have to all work together and find common ground.  That is why I came to the forum.  To help some you see another side to this moral dilemma.  This is a planet that is supposed to produce life, not kill it or use the life so a few can live life fat and high on the hog with all the money, sex and power they need and live long with access to body parts when needed.  Those days are over and now we work our way back to the Garden of Eden. No more shame and no more pain and no death and disease.  It will take us some time as a collective to get their, but it all starts in our consciousness and it's the right place to start.  I love you all.  I am so stoked to see the earth shifting to love and caring for others.


----------



## tenacious (May 4, 2022)

crush said:


> The fact is, it's not a ruling yet.  It's a draft that got leaked by a leaker.  I do think Roe will be overturned.  All it comes down to is putting the babies life into the hands of each State and not Plan for Parent in the Hood.  No Fed funds.  13 States already have a trigger that will 100% make it illegal to kill your baby.  Some States will 100% make it illegal if this draft is the actual ruling.  Judges can be pressured to change their vote so let's not get all emotional either way for either side of this debate about life and death, right?  Some States will allow you to abort up to 6 months so their is a way but it will cost more and be inconvenient to have to go to another State to abort your baby.  These are very tough talks that most don;t want to chat about.  However, human life is on the line and some folks need to speak on behalf of the baby in the womb.  We have to all work together and find common ground.  That is why I came to the forum.  To help some you see another side to this moral dilemma.  This is a planet that is supposed to produce life, not kill it or use the life so a few can live life fat and high on the hog with all the money, sex and power they need and live long with access to body parts when needed.  Those days are over and now we work our way back to the Garden of Eden. No more shame and no more pain and no death and disease.  It will take us some time as a collective to get their, but it all starts in our consciousness and it's the right place to start.  I love you all.  I am so stoked to see the earth shifting to love and caring for others.


I thought Judge Roberts had come out and said the document was authentic?
As for my own views... having grown up in the 90's during the height of the angry Christian right and now in 2020 with the left with the COVID mandates... I personally have grown very tired of others using the excuse 'they are saving lives' to boss me around and take away my liberties.


----------



## espola (May 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> At this point that's the only info I have with which to judge and I was straight forward that I was only offering an opinion based on my experience. As for the facts... I see from your post you don't seem to have any either. I assume thats because like democratic leaders your plan is to be very angry while offering no thoughts or solutions of substance?


I will hazard a prediction -- if this ends up being the final result of the Supreme Court,  it will become the #1 issue in the November elections.  We might see a parallel to the 2020 elections, where t's behavior galvanized the opposition to support what would otherwise have been seen as a weak slate just to get t out of office.  That prediction is based on a survey of everyone I know or see on social media, which is more than 0.


----------



## espola (May 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I thought Judge Roberts had come out and said the document was authentic?
> As for my own views... having grown up in the 90's during the height of the angry Christian right and now in 2020 with the left with the COVID mandates... I personally have grown very tired of others using the excuse 'they are saving lives' to boss me around and take away my liberties.


But not the final draft.  We have no history of Alito's draft writings so we don't know if he has previously cited judges from centuries ago who affirmed executions for witchcraft, or has declared the quiet part out loud by saying that they don't care what the public thinks, so we don't know if the more temperate justices might be able to tone that down a bit.  As written, it's a suicide note for the "pro-life" movement.


----------



## crush (May 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I thought Judge Roberts had come out and said the document was authentic?
> As for my own views... having grown up in the 90's during the height of the angry Christian right and now in 2020 with the left with the COVID mandates... I personally have grown very tired of others using the excuse 'they are saving lives' to boss me around and take away my liberties.


Judge Roberts said it's authentic draft.  Nothing is final until they announce the ruling.  I used to be angry in college and debated those who were Pros for abortions.  I then went for about 30 years not talking about it or debating the right to do it.  I just helped a lot people later in their life who felt horrible and felt guilty for their part in the abortion after they confessed it.  I never asked people to fess up either.  They went to church and felt the need to talk about what they did and they ALL felt bad and they carried that guilt inside for a long time.  I do feel like at a certain point we all need to help save lives.  At what age of the baby shall we protect IT?  Meaning when does IT have any rights and if IT has rights, who will protect IT?  Is six months way too old?


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## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

The Supreme Court has confirmed the authenticity of the draft opinion Politico published Monday night and is pursuing an investigation into the leak. But the court is stressing that the opinion, which calls for overturning _Roe v. Wade_, does not yet equal the law of the land.

"Justices circulate draft opinions internally as a routine and essential part of the Court's confidential deliberative work," it said in a Tuesday press release. "Although the document described in yesterday's reports is authentic, it does not represent a decision by the Court or the final position of any member on the issues in the case."









						What even is a draft opinion? Here's how the Supreme Court's process works
					

The court says it's routine for justices to circulate draft opinions internally. It's part of a larger procedure that involves deliberating, voting and assigning writers.




					www.npr.org


----------



## blam (May 4, 2022)

espola said:


> I will hazard a prediction -- if this ends up being the final result of the Supreme Court,  it will become the #1 issue in the November elections.  We might see a parallel to the 2020 elections, where t's behavior galvanized the opposition to support what would otherwise have been seen as a weak slate just to get t out of office.  That prediction is based on a survey of everyone I know or see on social media, which is more than 0.


I will hazard another prediction.
1. Population of minorities in states where abortion is illegal will rise to the horror of right wing racists. This being that they are historically the group that have least access to birth control. Families with 7 to 8 people will be common like those you see in Latin America where abortion is illegal in many countries.
2. More single parent where girls are left holding the bag as boys deny being the dad. Just like what is seen in many countries where abortion is illegal.
3. Baby drops will be more common where unwanted babies can be dropped off, no questions asked.


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## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

The draft, if confirmed, will not outlaw abortion.
It will send the abortion question back to individual state.
California and New York will continue to allow abortions with very few exceptions.
Other states will have more stringent rules regarding abortion, like 6 to 15 week time limits for abortions.


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## crush (May 4, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The draft, if confirmed, will not outlaw abortion.
> I will send the abortion question back to individual state.
> California and New York will continue to allow abortions with very few exceptions.
> Other states will have more stringent rules regarding abortion, like 6 to 15 week time limits for abortions.


Abortion is down 19% since 2010.  We all can see baby live inside mommy and that the baby is alive and kicking.


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## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

The Supreme Court basically ruled in_ Plessy v. Ferguson_ that segregation laws were legal. Creating a racist 'separate but equal' law. 
The ruling was in 1896. 58 years later, in 1954 the Supreme Court overturned the ruling in _ Brown v. Board of Education._
Surely Democrats screamed and howled that segregation -separate but equal - had been legal for 58 years and this would not stand.
The sky was not falling then and it's not falling now.


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## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

Ruth Bader Ginsberg had concerns about the Roe V. Wade ruling for decades...

_“Measured motions seem to me right, in the main, for constitutional as well as common law adjudication,” she argued. “Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade.” 

Ginsburg noted that Roe struck down far more than the specific Texas criminal abortion statute at issue in the case.

“Suppose the court had stopped there, rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force,” _

Supreme Court leak confirms Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s prescient warning about Roe v. Wade (nypost.com)


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 4, 2022)

blam said:


> I will hazard another prediction.
> 1. Population of minorities in states where abortion is illegal will rise to the horror of right wing racists. This being that they are historically the group that have least access to birth control. Families with 7 to 8 people will be common like those you see in Latin America where abortion is illegal in many countries.
> 2. More single parent where girls are left holding the bag as boys deny being the dad. Just like what is seen in many countries where abortion is illegal.
> 3. Baby drops will be more common where unwanted babies can be dropped off, no questions asked.


How about making birth control free and readily available. How about holding men responsible for their actions, all men.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

Meanwhile "transitory" trends we are living in.
Gas is higher, food is higher, electricity & natural gas is higher, illegal immigration is out of control & Afghanistan is a painful reality.


----------



## Brav520 (May 4, 2022)

espola said:


> I will hazard a prediction -- if this ends up being the final result of the Supreme Court,  it will become the #1 issue in the November elections.  We might see a parallel to the 2020 elections, where t's behavior galvanized the opposition to support what would otherwise have been seen as a weak slate just to get t out of office.  That prediction is based on a survey of everyone I know or see on social media, which is more than 0.


unlikely this becomes the #1 issue if inflation is still out there


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## watfly (May 4, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> How about making birth control free and readily available. How about holding men responsible for their actions, all men.


While I agree whole-heartedly with your sentiment, the problem is a lot more complicated than your suggestions.  Birth control is available if you want it, its not that hard to track down.  Every liquor store has condoms, plenty of Planned Parenthood's around and even the rhythm method is effective (but not foolproof, although far more effective than the Covid vaccine or masks).  I would support free birth control.  As far as deadbeat dads are concerned, what's your solution?  Send them to jail...I could get behind that.  I just don't know that we (the royal we) could reach a legal definition of "dead beat". 

We could take the Olympic approach and handout condoms for free, but that doesn't mean they will get used.  Their is still individual responsibility for birth control regardless of how available and affordable you make birth control.


----------



## tenacious (May 4, 2022)

espola said:


> I will hazard a prediction -- if this ends up being the final result of the Supreme Court,  it will become the #1 issue in the November elections.  We might see a parallel to the 2020 elections, where t's behavior galvanized the opposition to support what would otherwise have been seen as a weak slate just to get t out of office.  That prediction is based on a survey of everyone I know or see on social media, which is more than 0.


My guess is with the morning after pill and the creation of male birth control... that the need for abortion services were destined to become less about birth control and more about a means of dealing with unborn children with major birth defects.

So therefore in the long term, while I think it's a beautiful thing if a family decides to raise a child with down syndrome or severe birth defects- 99% of America isn't going to want to play that game. Even in the reddest states, when folks start realizing what lack of abortion services means to them personally they are going start pushing back.


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## Hüsker Dü (May 4, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I agree whole-heartedly with your sentiment, the problem is a lot more complicated than your suggestions.  Birth control is available if you want it, its not that hard to track down.  Every liquor store has condoms, plenty of Planned Parenthood's around and even the rhythm method is effective (but not foolproof, although far more effective than the Covid vaccine or masks).  I would support free birth control.  As far as deadbeat dads are concerned, what's your solution?  Send them to jail...I could get behind that.  I just don't know that we (the royal we) could reach a legal definition of "dead beat".
> 
> We could take the Olympic approach and handout condoms for free, but that doesn't mean they will get used.  Their is still individual responsibility for birth control regardless of how available and affordable you make birth control.


In some cases health insurance will pay for ED medication but not birth control for women . . . and who’s making those decisions?


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## watfly (May 4, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In some cases health insurance will pay for ED medication but not birth control for women . . . and who’s making those decisions?


Or pay to deliver a baby, but not birth control.  The cost/benefit analysis seems to be lacking.


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## Desert Hound (May 4, 2022)

If the ruling goes through...the beauty is it basically goes back to the people in the various states to decide.

Rather than have some unelected group of people decide the issue, it can finally be resolved in the states according to the publics wishes.

Most people support abortion in the first trimester. Most do not in the 2nd trimester. And overwhelmingly people are against abortions in the 3rd trimester.

I suspect we move to more or less around the US allowing it in the 1st trimester. Pretty much in line with what most other countries that allow abortion set at the time limit.


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## espola (May 4, 2022)

watfly said:


> Or pay to deliver a baby, but not birth control.  The cost/benefit analysis seems to be lacking.


Or pay for infant and child health care.


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## Lion Eyes (May 4, 2022)

*Plans in the Health Insurance Marketplace® must cover contraceptive methods and counseling for all women, as prescribed by a health care provider.
Plans must cover these services without charging a copayment or coinsurance when provided by an in-network provider — even if you haven’t met your deductible.*

*Covered contraceptive methods*
FDA-approved contraceptive methods prescribed by a woman’s doctor are covered, including:


Barrier methods, like diaphragms and sponges
Hormonal methods, like birth control pills and vaginal rings
Implanted devices, like intrauterine devices (IUDs)
Emergency contraception, like Plan B® and ella®
Sterilization procedures
Patient education and counseling










						Birth control benefits and reproductive health care options in the Health Insurance Marketplace®
					

Learn about birth control benefits at Healthcare.gov. Read about the many health care services available at the Health Insurance Marketplace®.




					www.healthcare.gov
				



.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 4, 2022)

Roe v Wade should never have happened instead the Supreme Court should have said that a woman's right to control her body is one of the many unalienable rights spoken about in the Declaration of Independence. Government has no authority to interfere with these kind of rights. Our rights are our rights because we are people. Rights are not given to us by the Constitution and if they were they could be taken away. the Constitution's primary purpose is to limit the government. Religion brought marriage into the government and it should not be an issue of government. The word marriage should be removed from any and all regulations, laws, whatever. To have a relationship (could be a called marriage) is again one of the unalienable rights spoken about in the Declaration of Independence. So many of things the American Revolution was fought over and the Constitution was written to protect us from are happening to us all and it isn't really that new. Abortion/Marriage are not issues the government should be considering or in any way involved but We the People have allowed the government to over step its authority as authorized by the Constitution. Get government out of our daily lives.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

@espola and @Hüsker Dü- I told the both of you a long time ago that abortion will end and will not be the "thing to do" so dd can finish college and kill baby instead.  Espola ignores me because I always wanted babies to have a voice in the womb and a right to speak and a right to breath fresh air.  I will speak for them until I die you losers!!! Husker Du say's I need medication because I disagree with killing innocent babies before their birth.  You two will go down as the biggest losers ever at the forum.  You want my dd to roll her arm up to take the jabs filled with aborted baby tissues, rats, bats and snake venom so she can enroll for in person college and have free access to abortions?  Talk about total nonsense.  You guys are two Coo Coo birds all in one.  My dd is alive today because my biological mother escaped from pure hell so I can be born and then sold to my mom so I could be safe.  I came to the earth to bring a voice of reason to the table. You men are selfish killers!!!


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## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Roe v Wade should never have happened instead the Supreme Court should have said that a woman's right to control her body is one of the many unalienable rights spoken about in the Declaration of Independence. Government has no authority to interfere with these kind of rights. Our rights are our rights because we are people. Rights are not given to us by the Constitution and if they were they could be taken away. the Constitution's primary purpose is to limit the government. Religion brought marriage into the government and it should not be an issue of government. The word marriage should be removed from any and all regulations, laws, whatever. To have a relationship (could be a called marriage) is again one of the unalienable rights spoken about in the Declaration of Independence. So many of things the American Revolution was fought over and the Constitution was written to protect us from are happening to us all and it isn't really that new. Abortion/Marriage are not issues the government should be considering or in any way involved but We the People have allowed the government to over step its authority as authorized by the Constitution. Get government out of our daily lives.


you are going to group marriage and abortion together?  really?  one is a medical procedure that always results in death, the other..well, the other may grant you years of joy..or not..


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## Hüsker Dü (May 5, 2022)

what-happened said:


> you are going to group marriage and abortion together?  really?  one is a medical procedure that always results in death, the other..well, the other may grant you years of joy..or not..


Group together? Only in the way that government should not be using religious beliefs as a basis for law. You either believe in the Constitution or you don’t.


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## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Group together? Only in the way that government should not be using religious beliefs as a basis for law. You either believe in the Constitution or you don’t.


fundamentally agree.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

what-happened said:


> you are going to group marriage and abortion together?  really?  one is a medical procedure that always results in death, the other..well, the other may grant you years of joy..or not..


One of the bedrocks of Row v Wade was the right to privacy (between a woman and her doctor and nobody else's business). The same bedrock has been used in same sex marriage & even inter racial marriage. Alito has gone to lengths to state that that doesn't apply there because a life at stake. That premise could be extended to say it doesn't apply for other reasons, i.e. its either a right or not, or the Supreme court is now saying they can decide when or if its a right. Take a vaccine mandate, the mantra has been along the lines of "my body, my choice", but if you take Alito's position that if lives are at stake, then you don't have the right to make that choice necessarily, and certainly you don't have a constitutional right to make decisions for your body if another life is at stake.


----------



## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> One of the bedrocks of Row v Wade was the right to privacy (between a woman and her doctor and nobody else's business). The same bedrock has been used in same sex marriage & even inter racial marriage. Alito has gone to lengths to state that that doesn't apply there because a life at stake. That premise could be extended to say it doesn't apply for other reasons, i.e. its either a right or not, or the Supreme court is now saying they can decide when or if its a right. Take a vaccine mandate, the mantra has been along the lines of "my body, my choice", but if you take Alito's position that if lives are at stake, then you don't have the right to make that choice necessarily, and certainly you don't have a constitutional right to make decisions for your body if another life is at stake.


I get all of that - I'll leave it to "man" to argue over the eaches of constitutional law.  Abortion is a polarizing topic, one I'd rather not get into with people who are mired in partisan politics.  Moral arguements and reflection should certainly occur.  At the end of the day, for abortion, it's a medical procedure that results in death.  You can argue within small margins that the procedure is sometimes required to save life, sometimes.  There is nuance in life and death decisions.  But to humanely argue you have a right to choose a medical procedure that results in death just because you can is morally askew (in my opinion).  Again, not wanting to get into a political discussion about medical procedures.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> One of the bedrocks of Row v Wade was the right to privacy (between a woman and her doctor and nobody else's business). The same bedrock has been used in same sex marriage & even inter racial marriage. Alito has gone to lengths to state that that doesn't apply there because a life at stake. That premise could be extended to say it doesn't apply for other reasons, i.e. its either a right or not, or the Supreme court is now saying they can decide when or if its a right. Take a vaccine mandate, the mantra has been along the lines of "my body, my choice", but if you take Alito's position that if lives are at stake, then you don't have the right to make that choice necessarily, and certainly you don't have a constitutional right to make decisions for your body if another life is at stake.


Jane Roe is talking today and she is letting everyone know the real truth about the real dealings that were going on with her in Texas back in 1973. My wife is Native American and so is my dd and ds.  They DO NOT allow for anything to enter their body that they don't want to enter their body. This is because of deeply and sacred and ancestral held beliefs that are passed down from generation to generation.  Way before the English came to settle on their land that they willingly shared with others ((The English)).  We must honor and respect the true Natives and their peoples and not kick out Native American females in the pursuit of their freedom and happiness without being forced to take bat and snake poison mixed with all sorts of other things I dont even want to talk about any more.  I can see how many of my pals are now turning into angry bats and some even seem possessed with so much anger that their not the same person I used to know.  It's truly sad.
Crush is a whole different story.  I am from deep Scottish Highlander bloodline with the birth name of Kirk.  My body, my choice regarding the jabs for me personally.  I get to choose.  People like me who believe in this kind of freedom are getting fired, blacklisted or worse.  It's sure beats being bought, bribed and blackmailed but both are troubling.  We all have to live with the choices we make, even if were born into some crazy ass places and families.  It's proven in my past religious and day to day circle that those who got jabbed + boosters are getting sicker and meaner as each day passes.  I know strong followers of Jesus who said you must obey and get the jab on FB.  Now their saying their pro-choice Christians and debating other pro-life Christians.  It's all a trip and very divisive right now in the Christianism.  So much division over the right to abort up to 6 months or longer.  Roe was not looking for 6 months back then.  They ((the far left)) have taken this issue way to far and we all know why.  They have Docs doing 200 a week and then selling the baby parts to make $$$.  That is not what Jane had in mine either or most mothers.  I am monitoring three hard gore left leaning pals and they are not doing well.  Full of anger and always sick.  We now know 100% that those who get angry are scared are just fearful of the future and they are projecting their worst fears unto all of us, to make our lives like their lives or else they will scream and go nuts on everything they are against.  I believe all humans need to be re-educated and re-taught about the real truth about the real meaning of life and we came.  Pay to play with sex has to have some responsibility to it.  We need to initiate the male better as a society and teach him a few things about sex and all that fun stuff.  Males need help and so do the females.  Things like respect, self control, patience, birth control, the moon cycle and so much more.  We need to appreciate life better and not kill a beating heart.  I like that.  No kill when their is a heart.  Lets tighten things up at each State level.


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> One of the bedrocks of Row v Wade was the right to privacy (between a woman and her doctor and nobody else's business). The same bedrock has been used in same sex marriage & even inter racial marriage. Alito has gone to lengths to state that that doesn't apply there because a life at stake. That premise could be extended to say it doesn't apply for other reasons, i.e. its either a right or not, or the Supreme court is now saying they can decide when or if its a right. Take a vaccine mandate, the mantra has been along the lines of "my body, my choice", but if you take Alito's position that if lives are at stake, then you don't have the right to make that choice necessarily, and certainly you don't have a constitutional right to make decisions for your body if another life is at stake.


My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, was that Alito's position is that it involved a 3rd party.  So from his position "my body, my choice" isn't necessarily applicable.  IMO I believe that to extrapolate that this decision will impact gay marriage, interracial marriage etc is a bit of fear mongering, but only time will tell.  I didn't think Roe v. Wade would ever be overturned since there had been a majority of Republican appointed judges for quite some time.  I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again. I think the extremes from both sides are being disingenuous about what this decision means.

BTW Row v Wade is a fishing decision and not a Supreme Court decision.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Group together? Only in the way that government should not be using religious beliefs as a basis for law. You either believe in the Constitution or you don’t.


You either believe in the Constitution or you don't......

_*“Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. And far from bringing about a national settlement of the abortion issue, Roe and Casey have enflamed debate and deepened division.”
“It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.” *_


----------



## espola (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You either believe in the Constitution or you don't......
> 
> _*“Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. And far from bringing about a national settlement of the abortion issue, Roe and Casey have enflamed debate and deepened division.”
> “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.” *_


What do we the people think about this?  (You remember them/us?  They/We are the first mentioned in the Constitution)


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> What do we the people think about this? (You remember them/us? They/We are the first mentioned in the Constitution)


And that is the beauty of this decision if this is what it actually is. 

They are saying the issue should be left up to the various legislatures elected by the people, rather than be decided by a court. 

In other words we the people will now finally have a say in the issue.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

THEY FORGET THIS: Supreme Court leak confirms Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s prescient warning about Roe v. Wade: Ginsburg firmly supported abortion, but she lamented the court’s decision to unilaterally create a new ‘regime’ on the subject.


> Ginsburg warned against major judicial shifts in a 1992 lecture at New York University, citing Roe as an example.
> “Measured motions seem to me right, in the main, for constitutional as well as common law adjudication,” she argued. “Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade.”
> Ginsburg noted that Roe struck down far more than the specific Texas criminal abortion statute at issue in the case.
> “Suppose the court had stopped there, rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force,” she said. “A less encompassing Roe, one that merely struck down the extreme Texas law and went no further on that day, I believe and will summarize why, might have served to reduce rather than to fuel controversy.” . . .
> ...


I suspect that if things had been left to legislatures, we’d have something like what’s common in Europe, easy availability in the first 12 weeks, much more difficult after. By European standards, by the way, the Mississippi law in question in _Dobbs,_ which allows abortion for any reason through week 15, isn’t extreme at all.


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## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> What do we the people think about this?  (You remember them/us?  They/We are the first mentioned in the Constitution)


You are including ALL the people, right Magoo? Pro choice & pro abortion are part of "we the people".
The court is sending the issue back to the States..."to the people's elected representatives".
If the ruling is final, abortion in California will not change.
If we the people want abortion to be a Constitutional Right, then put forth a Constitutional Amendment and add it to the Constitution.
See the 18th & 21st Amendments as examples...


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And that is the beauty of this decision if this is what it actually is.
> 
> They are saying the issue should be left up to the various legislatures elected by the people, rather than be decided by a court.
> 
> In other words we the people will now finally have a say in the issue.


The only problem I have with this is that abortion rights weren't on the ballot when the current representatives were elected.  I know some people that would change their vote based on this single issue alone.

I understand the rationale for the decision and I fully support the idea that when in doubt let the individual states decide, but I think it would be more appropriate for the issue of abortion to be voted on individually by the state voters and not through an elected representative.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

what-happened said:


> I get all of that - I'll leave it to "man" to argue over the eaches of constitutional law.  Abortion is a polarizing topic, one I'd rather not get into with people who are mired in partisan politics.  Moral arguements and reflection should certainly occur.  At the end of the day, for abortion, it's a medical procedure that results in death.  You can argue within small margins that the procedure is sometimes required to save life, sometimes.  There is nuance in life and death decisions.  But to humanely argue you have a right to choose a medical procedure that results in death just because you can is morally askew (in my opinion).  Again, not wanting to get into a political discussion about medical procedures.


It is certainly nuanced, examples being an abortion to save the mother's life or in cases of rape. I'm not an abortion free for all advocate, but I also don't believe that I can choose what someone else's wife, mother, daughter can do against their will, in this instance.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, was that Alito's position is that it involved a 3rd party.  So from his position "my body, my choice" isn't necessarily applicable.  IMO I believe that to extrapolate that this decision will impact gay marriage, interracial marriage etc is a bit of fear mongering, but only time will tell.  I didn't think Roe v. Wade would ever be overturned since there had been a majority of Republican appointed judges for quite some time.  I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again. I think the extremes from both sides are being disingenuous about what this decision means.
> 
> BTW Row v Wade is a fishing decision and not a Supreme Court decision.


The problem is that when you are at pains to explain that it doesn't extend to other things, like gay marriage, as the basis for that decision was at least partly the same, then you are acknowledging that it could extend to those things, if someone else decides it does. Basically, people with diametrically opposing views (re abortion) both feel they are the rational one and the other isn't. So "fear mongering" to one person is actual fear to another.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> THEY FORGET THIS: Supreme Court leak confirms Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s prescient warning about Roe v. Wade: Ginsburg firmly supported abortion, but she lamented the court’s decision to unilaterally create a new ‘regime’ on the subject.
> 
> 
> I suspect that if things had been left to legislatures, we’d have something like what’s common in Europe, easy availability in the first 12 weeks, much more difficult after. By European standards, by the way, the Mississippi law in question in _Dobbs,_ which allows abortion for any reason through week 15, isn’t extreme at all.


I see that there is already movement in some states to get it enshrined in state constitutions. I assume that will start to be pushed where possible. It may/will be easier to get that done than have legislatures do it, given the extensive gerrymandering that is in place across the country. 

One thing is for sure, if this becomes the decision, it will resolve nothing and if anything, it will be a major boon to the Ds (and God knows they need one!).


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, was that Alito's position is that it involved a 3rd party.  So from his position "my body, my choice" isn't necessarily applicable.


The 3rd party is everyone else for a vaccine mandate argument, i.e. your lack of one puts everyone else at risk. There are plenty of decisions that have unintended consequences.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> *I didn't think Roe v. Wade would ever be overturned
> I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again.*


crush told you the Supremes would rule this way and so did Mr. t.  You were wrong and t and I were right.  I like that you admit when your wrong though.  Is it time for you to eat some crow bro?  I also said many other things that would happen and are now not a conspiracy.  Plus, I told you the Creator is real and is not messing around this time.  Yeshua came 2020 years ago to bring the way of Christ.  He warned everyone not to mess with the children, especially the orphans.  He also said to take care of the elderly and the widows.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> One thing is for sure, if this becomes the decision, it will resolve nothing and if anything, it will be a major boon to the Ds (and *God knows they need one!).*


Good luck with God's help on this issue


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## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The problem is that when you are at pains to explain that it doesn't extend to other things, like gay marriage, as the basis for that decision was at least partly the same, then you are acknowledging that it could extend to those things, if someone else decides it does. Basically, people with diametrically opposing views (re abortion) both feel they are the rational one and the other isn't. So "fear mongering" to one person is actual fear to another.


Except if it is in the text of the decision which it is as of now "Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion", it becomes a much bigger hurdle to overcome to use this decision to attack other civil liberties like contraception and marriage, which don't involve extinguishing a life.  Only fear mongers would claim that contraception and interracial marriage is on the chopping block.  I don't think even most active Catholics believe contraception should be eliminated.


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## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The 3rd party is everyone else for a vaccine mandate argument, i.e. your lack of one puts everyone else at risk. There are plenty of decisions that have unintended consequences.


There is a huge difference between direct and indirect consequences, but I think you know that.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> There is a huge difference between direct and indirect consequences, but I think you know that.


Hey wat fly, Jane Roe got baptized, FYI.  She said her biggest "sin" was being the Plaintiff for Roe vs Wade and she has carried that guilt for many years.  She lied to get paid, go figure.  These same people who paid her to lie hate me because I was allowed to be born by God and now they hate me even more because I won't get the jab and obey them.  I did not come here to obey these monsters and neither did you.  I'm praying for you to see the light and start believing in God.  Where are you at today with being on the fence with your faith and belief in the Creator and Yeshua?  Just checking in with you.  Love you man


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## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> but I think it would be more appropriate for the issue of abortion to be voted on individually by the state voters and not through an elected representative.


If there is enough demand one way or another, those reps will bow to the pressure...whichever direction that goes. 

In some states it may be put out to the public in terms of one of the election referendums.


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## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> like gay marriage, as the basis for that decision was at least partly the same, then you are acknowledging that it could extend to those things, if someone else decides it does.


Actually it won't based on the draft.

Per the draft (and yes it was not the final draft). But they seem to be thinking about the above. And what does it say in the draft?

"And to ensure that our decision is not mis- understood or mischaracterized, we emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right. Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents *that do not concern abortion*."

So when you hear people/press/politicians say this could change other things...they either don't know or are lying.


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## espola (May 5, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually it won't based on the draft.
> 
> Per the draft (and yes it was not the final draft). But they seem to be thinking about the above. And what does it say in the draft?
> 
> ...


It's absurd to claim that some part of this opinion will protect other precedents when the very intent of the whole opinion is to justify overturning language in previous decisions and opinions.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> It's absurd to claim that some part of this opinion will protect other precedents when the very intent of the whole opinion is to justify overturning language in previous decisions and opinions.


It's absurd that as a society were killing babies at 6 months Grandpa.  Mean Grandpa you are.  My foster mum told me that my Elitist bio Grandmother wanted me sacrificed and not kept alive.  God had other plans.  It's also absurd that we fire people for not obeying the jab.  Keep it up Gramps, your true colors show more every day


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Actually it won't based on the draft.
> 
> Per the draft (and yes it was not the final draft). But they seem to be thinking about the above. And what does it say in the draft?
> 
> ...


Multiple potential justices stated that Roe vs Wade is "settled" law or words to that effect, until apparently it isn't from the same justices. So it either wasn't or they were lying. So, for them to say this doesn't impact anything else could be true or they could be lying again ... fear mongering or facts?


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Multiple potential justices stated that Roe vs Wade is "settled" law or words to that effect, until apparently it isn't from the same justices. So it either wasn't or they were lying. So, for them to say this doesn't impact anything else could be true or they could be lying again ... fear mongering or facts?


Get over it Frances.  Kids win and kids will live and we should all be super stoked for the kids.


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## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> There is a huge difference between direct and indirect consequences, but I think you know that.


I do know that, but there is also a correlation if someone wants to make it. Would it succeed, IDK, but it opens a door to unintended consequences, which is my point.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I do know that, but there is also a correlation if someone wants to make it. Would it succeed, IDK, but it opens a door to unintended consequences, which is my point.


Fear is your worst enemy.  Stop making things up that haven't happen.  If you think something about the future, it plays a video in your brain and you start to feel something that has not happened.  Don;t worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will worry about itself.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> Except if it is in the text of the decision which it is as of now "Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion", it becomes a much bigger hurdle to overcome to use this decision to attack other civil liberties like contraception and marriage, which don't involve extinguishing a life.  Only fear mongers would claim that contraception and interracial marriage is on the chopping block.  I don't think even most active Catholics believe contraception should be eliminated.


The point is that if the basis for a decision was made on say the constitutional right to privacy, and that basis has now been called into question, then there will be challenges to other decisions which were made using the same basis. If it was accepted in this instance, then there's no reason to belief it won't work in others. SCOTUS makes narrow decisions all the time, which doesn't rule out broader ones, but rules on the specifics to hand. They've opened a door; and they know it. Expect cases accordingly would be my guess.


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## watfly (May 5, 2022)

This is from Reuter's and while it is a professor's opinion,  Reuters is as impartial as they come and chose to publish it.

_"On interracial marriage, contraception and same-sex marriage, for one reason or another there is no likelihood the court is going to revisit those decisions," Northwestern University law professor John McGinnis said.

The fact that Americans have relied on the same-sex marriage decision to plan and invest in their lives and relationships makes it unlikely that the justices will overturn it, McGinnis said.

McGinnis added, "No state legislature is going to get rid of contraception. That's fanciful. And no state legislature is going to get rid of interracial marriage."_



whatithink said:


> I do know that, but there is also a correlation if someone wants to make it. Would it succeed, IDK, but it opens a door to unintended consequences, which is my point.


There is also a difference between doing something and succeeding at it.  Anyone can sue, for any reason, valid or not.  That's how are system works.  The decision itself doesn't provide any precedent for the elimination of other civil liberties.   It might provide the spirit to attempt, but doesn't provide the law to do so.  And just FYI I'm unhappy with the decision, but it may be constitutionally correct.


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## espola (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Multiple potential justices stated that Roe vs Wade is "settled" law or words to that effect, until apparently it isn't from the same justices. So it either wasn't or they were lying. So, for them to say this doesn't impact anything else could be true or they could be lying again ... fear mongering or facts?


Perjury is an impeachable offense.


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## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> This is from Reuter's and while it is a professor's opinion,  Reuters is as impartial as they come and chose to publish it.
> 
> _"On interracial marriage, contraception and same-sex marriage, for one reason or another there is no likelihood the court is going to revisit those decisions," Northwestern University law professor John McGinnis said.
> 
> ...


Well, Roe was constitutionally correct until it wasn't - the constitution is as robust and set in stone as the opinion of the people interpreting it. In this instance though the justices are saying the constitution is irrelevant (basically) so the States decide.


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## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Well, Roe was constitutionally correct until it wasn't - the constitution is as robust and set in stone as the opinion of the people interpreting it. In this instance though the justices are saying the constitution is irrelevant (basically) so the States decide.


Roe was paid to lie about what happen to her at conception.  HRC was trained by a killer.


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## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> It is certainly nuanced, examples being an abortion to save the mother's life or in cases of rape. I'm not an abortion free for all advocate, but I also don't believe that I can choose what someone else's wife, mother, daughter can do against their will, in this instance.


You seem to be a reasonable person who understands nuance.  Unfortunately the extremist on both sides use the scorched earth method.

For example, being irresponsible one night shouldn't give you the right to change your mind 24 weeks later.  Some would argue sooner.  For the sake of biology and medicine, 24 weeks is a good measure.  

The other extreme side is the 100% ban.  Medically speaking, there are always going to be decisions that have to be made for the sake of a patient.  I will say, the instances cited by the extreme left as a reason for a free for all advocacy are in the small margins.  

It's an emotional topic, usually driven by people who are more ideologically driven.


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## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Well, Roe was constitutionally correct until it wasn't - the constitution is as robust and set in stone as the opinion of the people interpreting it. In this instance though the justices are saying the constitution is irrelevant (basically) so the States decide.


Well segregation was "constitutional" until it wasn't...
In this case, the court is correcting a law apparently established by the court.
The Supreme Court has no authority to create laws. 
The legislature is the only branch of government with that responsibility.
What is not enumerated in the Constitution is referred to the States.
States Rights...


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

Meanwhile back at the ranch,,,

President Joe Biden and his administration appear perilously close to an irreversible severing of public confidence in his capacity to deliver prosperity and financial security as stiff economic challenges balloon into huge political liabilities.

A CNN poll released Wednesday shows that the President's repeated efforts to highlight undeniably strong aspects of the economy's post-pandemic rebound and to offset blame for its bad spots aren't working.


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Well, Roe was constitutionally correct until it wasn't - the constitution is as robust and set in stone as the opinion of the people interpreting it. In this instance though the justices are saying the constitution is irrelevant (basically) so the States decide.


I don't necessarily disagree, but the Supreme Court happens to have far more unanimous decisions than the media would have you believe, which I appreciate is of little solace in terms of this decision.  In their minds, the justices believe that in fact the Constitution was the most relevant to this decision.  Like Desert Hound posted, RGB wasn't fond of the basis for the RvW  decision and didn't believe the right to privacy was the most compelling argument.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

what-happened said:


> You seem to be a reasonable person who understands nuance.  Unfortunately the extremist on both sides use the scorched earth method.
> 
> For example, being irresponsible one night shouldn't give you the right to change your mind 24 weeks later.  Some would argue sooner.  For the sake of biology and medicine, 24 weeks is a good measure.
> 
> ...


I just wanted a chance to be alive and want people to know all life matters.  Diane Feinstein said that a lot of girls were getting knocked up at her college and other Big U's in the 50s and 60s and she said the girls had to go to Mexico to get abortion.  I think those days are over.  You can use birth control or do morning after to be safe.  Guys can put a coat on and then all the other methods.  Something seems off with this topic and way too many babies were being sold for body parts.  That is morally wrong.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Well segregation was "constitutional" until it wasn't...
> In this case, the court is correcting a law apparently established by the court.
> The Supreme Court has no authority to create laws.
> The legislature is the only branch of government with that responsibility.
> ...


I get that. I would correct your representation of it though. SCOTUS originally said the right was given based on the constitution and now SCOTUS is saying the constitution doesn't infer that right. In neither case is SCOTUS creating a law. In both cases they say the constitution does or does not provide the right, therefore it is or is not the "law". 

So, for example, marriage is the purview of the States, so same sex marriages get settled there I assume.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I get that. I would correct your representation of it though. SCOTUS originally said the right was given based on the constitution and now SCOTUS is saying the constitution doesn't infer that right. In neither case is SCOTUS creating a law. In both cases they say the constitution does or does not provide the right, therefore it is or is not the "law".
> 
> So, for example, marriage is the purview of the States, so same sex marriages get settled there I assume.


Jane lied and got paid to lie.  It's time to send IT back to the States and the States people.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> @Multi Sport  ... I've given you time to consider your answer. Let's see if you've done your homework and can answer the question. The question is...  What is the 8th root of 1?
> 
> Here is a clue that may or may not help you -- there are 8 correct answers (as one would expect in an 8th root solution, with the added complication that all 8 roots are distinct when viewed in the appropriate discipline).


You're not an accredited teacher  in the state of California therefore know nothing about homework...

Please entertain me..


----------



## Multi Sport (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> How about making birth control free and readily available. How about holding men responsible for their actions, all men.


Where have you been?


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:
How about making birth control free and readily available. How about holding men responsible for their actions, all men.



Multi Sport said:


> Where have you been?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I get that. I would correct your representation of it though. SCOTUS originally said the right was given based on the constitution and now SCOTUS is saying the constitution doesn't infer that right. In neither case is SCOTUS creating a law. In both cases they say the constitution does or does not provide the right, therefore it is or is not the "law".
> 
> So, for example, marriage is the purview of the States, so same sex marriages get settled there I assume.


From the dissent for Roe v Wade:
Justices Byron White and William Rehnquist dissented from the Court's decision.[6] White's dissent, which was issued with _Roe_'s companion case, _Doe v. Bolton_, argued that the Court had no basis for deciding between the competing values of pregnant women and unborn children.



> I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant women and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. *The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally disentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the woman, on the other hand.* As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.
> — _Doe_, 410 U.S. at 221–22 (White, J., dissenting).[101]


White argued that abortion, *"for the most part, should be left with the people and the political processes the people have devised to govern their affairs."**[102]*

Rehnquist's dissent compared the majority's use of substantive due process to the Court's repudiated use of the doctrine in the 1905 case _Lochner v. New York_.[6] He elaborated on several of White's points and asserted that the Court's historical analysis was flawed:



> *To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion. While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today.*
> — _Roe_, 410 U.S. at 174–76 (Rehnquist, J., dissenting).[103][104][105]


From the actual historical record, Rehnquist concluded, "There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted." Because of this, "the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter."[106]
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*Ruth Bader Ginsberg had concerns about the Roe V. Wade ruling for decades...*

_“Measured motions seem to me right, in the main, for constitutional as well as common law adjudication,” she argued. “Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade.” 

*Ginsburg noted that Roe struck down far more than the specific Texas criminal abortion statute at issue in the case.*

“Suppose the court had stopped there, rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force,” _

Supreme Court leak confirms Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s prescient warning about Roe v. Wade (nypost.com)


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> It's absurd to claim that some part of this opinion will protect other precedents when the very intent of the whole opinion is to justify overturning language in previous decisions and opinions.


It is not absurd. Especially in light of the fact the opinion states this ruling only applies to abortion. That means from the get go, other courts cannot use the reasoning in this ruling for other legal matters.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> In this instance though the justices are saying the constitution is irrelevant (basically) so the States decide.


On the contrary, they are saying as a constitutional matter this issue is one that should be decided through the legislative process.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

Regarding the possible SCOTUS ruling...
After all is said and done abortion will not change in California...
It may or may not change in other states depending on the electorate. 
States decide..states rights


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> It's absurd to claim that some part of this opinion will protect other precedents when the very intent of the whole opinion is to justify overturning language in previous decisions and opinions.


Horseshit...


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

This is a good read.









						The Irrational, Misguided Discourse Surrounding Supreme Court Controversies Such as Roe v. Wade
					

The Court, like the U.S. Constitution, was designed to be a limit on the excesses of democracy. Roe denied, not upheld, the rights of citizens to decide democratically.




					greenwald.substack.com


----------



## espola (May 5, 2022)




----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 13472


Wow, you are just like my buddy.  So Dr. Espola, does a baby have any rights when in mom's tummy?  Is there such a thing as way too many weeks old or is the baby all of mummmies, because the baby lives in the womb.  It's the secret place.


----------



## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 13472


Who does the baby belong to?  how cute with the religous inflection points.  

Are we talking bout a uterus?  oh boy, that could lead you down another route of ambiguity.  By the way, the two stereotypical white male represented are still leading the charge, on both sides.  As if the uterus doesn't exist.


----------



## blam (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 13472



soon states will also decide if you should be vaccinated or not. That is very scary to me. More scary than the abortion issue. Its harder to leave the states that require vaccine mandate as I have a job, a house, a family etc. etc. whereas abortion, I can travel.

Its my body, its my choice to be vaccinated or not.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> From the dissent for Roe v Wade:
> Justices Byron White and William Rehnquist dissented from the Court's decision.[6] White's dissent, which was issued with _Roe_'s companion case, _Doe v. Bolton_, argued that the Court had no basis for deciding between the competing values of pregnant women and unborn children.
> 
> 
> ...


Some potential consequences, quotes (my bolding) from the article - I've no idea how this pans out, but it would be naive to think there won't be runs on other "rights" we think we have

_By questioning the constitutionality of a right to privacy, Marks told Insider that it posits the question: "What is the definition of liberty?"

"If I ask you to find the right to privacy in the US constitution, you will not find it — there is no explicit right to privacy in the US constitution," Marks said. "So if that draft of opinion becomes the majority opinion and at least five justices sign onto it, *even to the extent they may narrow the scope*, it doesn't mean there won't be incremental changes in other decisions along the way."_

Geoffrey Stone, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Chicago, echoed the sentiment, saying "it's perfectly plausible that [the Supreme Court] will say, 'We already decided it. There's no right of privacy in the Constitution.'"

_"A key part of the rationale of Alito's opinion is that there is no such thing as a right of privacy in the Constitution. That's what the court relied upon in all of these cases," Stone told Insider. "If that's true in Dobbs, then why isn't true in others?"_

Law experts warn that leaked SCOTUS draft opinion on Roe v. Wade exposes a weak spot that puts the use of contraceptions and other privacy rights at risk (msn.com)


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> soon states will also decide if you should be vaccinated or not. That is very scary to me. More scary than the abortion issue. Its harder to leave the states that require vaccine mandate as I have a job, a house, a family etc. etc. whereas abortion, I can travel.
> 
> Its my body, its my choice to be vaccinated or not.


According to Espola, it's mommies baby and she can do whatever she wants with her baby.  Thank God my biological mother had a heart and saved me from pure evil.  She kept me safe for 9 months and then my adopted mother took over from there for 18 years and that's it, no more help.  All I needed was a chance.  The same scientists want to inject me with the Wuhan Special.  It's a toxic mix of poison that can do some serious damage to you. I'm watching first hand how messed up this all is with my pal.


----------



## blam (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> "A key part of the rationale of Alito's opinion is that there is no such thing as a right of privacy in the Constitution. That's what the court relied upon in all of these cases," Stone told Insider. "If that's true in Dobbs, then why isn't true in others?"


That is because a lot of these rights were called that way when the constitution was first written. But privacy is inherent.

For example, there is no right granted for the governemnt to start an air force. So the USAF is unconstitutional?

Another absurd example, the 2nd amendment original intent was to allow the states to call up the militia to fight against the federal government in the event the federal government is too powerful. Does this mean that we should have the right to own tanks, nuclear bombs and submarines in our backyard? We realistically would need these weapons if we are called up by our state to form a militia to fight the US Army.

Finally, another absurd example, the constitution does not give us the right to vote. Why are we voting?

If we go back to the original literal intent, we would live in an absurd world far different from what it is today.


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Some potential consequences, quotes (my bolding) from the article - I've no idea how this pans out, but it would be naive to think there won't be runs on other "rights" we think we have
> 
> _By questioning the constitutionality of a right to privacy, Marks told Insider that it posits the question: "What is the definition of liberty?"
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity who do you think is going to push for a ban of contraceptives?  I don't even think given an opportunity to do so the Catholics or other anti-contraceptive religious groups are going to challenge it.  The Catholics have only fought against their hospitals being forced to pay for contraceptives.  I don't get any sense they care about what non-Catholics do in the privacy of their own home.  Hell, I'd bet that even Matt Gaetz used a condom with the teenage girl.

Have any of the justices ever questioned contraceptives?  Whose is this contraceptive bogeyman?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

Roe v. Wade: 1973
From the actual historical record, Rehnquist concluded, "There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted." Because of this, "the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter.

When the justices ruled in Roe V. Wade Rehnquist in descent pointed out his concern  that the ruling took away States power to legislate.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg in 1992 had the same concerns.

The ruling would give back those powers...


----------



## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> Another absurd example, the 2nd amendment original intent was to allow the states to call up the militia to fight against the federal government in the event the federal government is too powerful. *Does this mean that we should have the right to own tanks, nuclear bombs and submarines in our backyard? We realistically would need these weapons if we are called up by our state to form a militia to fight the US Army.*


Certainly off topic..but really?  tanks, nuclear bombs, and submarines.  The afghanis must have missed this memo.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 5, 2022)

No, abortion won't rescue Dems in November
					

NO, ABORTION WON'T RESCUE DEMS IN NOVEMBER. There's a lot of speculation that a Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, if that indeed happens, would be a boost for Democrats in this November's midterm elections. There seems no doubt the decision will motivate some part of the Democratic…




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> That is because a lot of these rights were called that way when the constitution was first written. But privacy is inherent.





blam said:


> *For example, there is no right granted for the governemnt to start an air force. So the USAF is unconstitutional?*
> Another absurd example, the 2nd amendment original intent was to allow the states to call up the militia to fight against the federal government in the event the federal government is too powerful. Does this mean that we should have the right to own tanks, nuclear bombs and submarines in our backyard? We realistically would need these weapons if we are called up by our state to form a militia to fight the US Army.
> *Finally, another absurd example, the constitution does not give us the right to vote. Why are we voting?*
> If we go back to the original literal intent, we would live in an absurd world far different from what it is today.


*Article I, Section 8, Clause 12*: *To raise and support Armies, (the air force is part of the armies of the USA)*


*Article 1, Section 4*
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives,* shall be prescribed in each State* by the Legislature thereof;
Those dreaded states rights again...


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> Just out of curiosity who do you think is going to push for a ban of contraceptives?  I don't even think given an opportunity to do so the Catholics or other anti-contraceptive religious groups are going to challenge it.  The Catholics have only fought against their hospitals being forced to pay for contraceptives.  I don't get any sense they care about what non-Catholics do in the privacy of their own home.  Hell, I'd bet that even Matt Gaetz used a condom with the teenage girl.
> 
> Have any of the justices ever questioned contraceptives?  Whose is this contraceptive bogeyman?


I haven't called that out anywhere, although it's in the article, so I'm not sure why you focus on that specifically rather than, say, same sex marriage which I could see someone having a run at. That said, there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only. Given our legal system, there's no reason one or more of them couldn't bring this before SCOTUS.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I haven't called that out anywhere, although it's in the article, so I'm not sure why you focus on that specifically rather than, say, same sex marriage which I could see someone having a run at. That said, there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only. Given our legal system, there's no reason one or more of them couldn't bring this before SCOTUS.


Alito, in the draft opinion, explicitly states that the court is only targeting the right to abortion, not those other matters.

“We emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right,” the draft states. “Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.”









						LGBTQ advocates worry other rights at risk if court overturns Roe v. Wade
					

Little doubt remains about what the Supreme Court plans to do with Roe v. Wade. But uncertainty abounds about the ripple effects as the court nears a final opinion expected to overturn the landmark 1973 case that created a nationwide right to abortion.




					www.pbs.org


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Alito, in the draft opinion, explicitly states that the court is only targeting the right to abortion, not those other matters.
> 
> “We emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right,” the draft states. “Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.”
> 
> ...


From your article,

_"The draft opinion ... argues that unenumerated constitutional rights - those not explicitly mentioned in the document - must be "deeply rooted in the Nation's history and traditions." And it says abortion doesn't meet that standard."_

How far a leap to same sex marriage?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> From your article,
> 
> _"The draft opinion ... argues that unenumerated constitutional rights - those not explicitly mentioned in the document - must be "deeply rooted in the Nation's history and traditions." And it says abortion doesn't meet that standard."_
> 
> ...


See Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment & the ruling itself.


			https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf
		


The sky is not falling....


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I haven't called that out anywhere, although it's in the article, so I'm not sure why you focus on that specifically rather than, say, same sex marriage which I could see someone having a run at. That said, there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only. Given our legal system, there's no reason one or more of them couldn't bring this before SCOTUS.


"there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only".  None of which have the substance, standing or public support to pursue a ban of contraception.  If you take a look at the "abstinence in peril" articles, they don't provide any evidence of a group, or a case even in the lower courts that would be a challenge to contraceptives.   It's a "chicken little" and fear mongering approach to curry votes for the November election. 

Of course, if I was a leftist I would exploit the Supreme Court's decision as well in an attempt to prevent a Red Wave.  The SC has handed the far left a gift for November.  It will have an impact that benefits the left, but mostly with those that are single issue abortion voters.  I suspect at the end of the day inflation will far outweigh abortion rights.  Let's be honest, there is really nothing an individual can do to fight inflation, but there is plenty an individual can do to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.


----------



## espola (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> "there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only".  None of which have the substance, standing or public support to pursue a ban of contraception.  If you take a look at the "abstinence in peril" articles, they don't provide any evidence of a group, or a case even in the lower courts that would be a challenge to contraceptives.   It's a "chicken little" and fear mongering approach to curry votes for the November election.
> 
> Of course, if I was a leftist I would exploit the Supreme Court's decision as well in an attempt to prevent a Red Wave.  The SC has handed the far left a gift for November.  It will have an impact that benefits the left, but mostly with those that are single issue abortion voters.  I suspect at the end of the day inflation will far outweigh abortion rights.  Let's be honest, there is really nothing an individual can do to fight inflation, but there is plenty an individual can do to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.


Griswold v Connecticut, which most people see as the foundation of privacy right being extended to the use of contraceptives, was originally decided in favor of married couples.  It's not hard to imagine a legal pursuit to back up to that narrow finding.  Just saying no one has substance now is irrelevant.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> Griswold v Connecticut, which most people see as the foundation of privacy right being extended to the use of contraceptives, was originally decided in favor of married couples.  It's not hard to imagine a legal pursuit to back up to that narrow finding.  Just saying no one has substance now is irrelevant.


----------



## crush (May 5, 2022)

*REPORTER: "Does [Biden] support any limits on abortion?"*
*
PSAKI: No

REPORTER: "Does the president support abortion until the moment of birth?"
*
*PSAKI: Yes *


----------



## blam (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *Article I, Section 8, Clause 12*: *To raise and support Armies, (the air force is part of the armies of the USA)*
> 
> 
> *Article 1, Section 4*
> ...



The constitution is very clear, Army is not the Air Force. The constitution also says Congress can mint coins not dollars. That is why the government does not print dollars and only mints coins. Its a very literal interpretation. You cannot argue that coin and dollars are just monies.

Article 1 Section 4 talks about Election. It does not grant every citizen the right to vote. Remember, when the USA was first founded, it is not a democracy. The founders were infact wary of democracies for it would lead to mob rule. So do not pretend that there is a right to vote in the USA in the constitution. Your quote supports this. Right to vote is not a national right if we were to interpret the constitution literally.


----------



## blam (May 5, 2022)

what-happened said:


> Certainly off topic..but really?  tanks, nuclear bombs, and submarines.  The afghanis must have missed this memo.


Not of topic as we are discussing if the constitution should be taken literally or not.

How do you think our California Militia can take on the US Army without these weapons? Remember, the 2nd amendment purpose is so that our state militia can take on the Federal government if there was ever a need.

Recap.  *A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,.......*

It appalls me that nowadays people are thinking of exercising the 2nd amendment in order to hunt....no, it was way bigger than that when it was first thought up.


----------



## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> Not of topic as we are discussing if the constitution should be taken literally or not.
> 
> How do you think our California Militia can take on the US Army without these weapons? Remember, the 2nd amendment purpose is so that our state militia can take on the Federal government if there was ever a need.
> 
> ...


Go ahead and be appalled.  The 2nd amendment protects YOUR right to possess a firearm without having to be part of a militia. I'd rather not be connected to the government in order to own a firearm. YOU have a right to lawfully defend yourself.  It's basic American right, unlike any other in the free world.  Do firearms have their drawbacks?  of course, criminals will always have access.  But please go ahead and be appalled.   I'm sure I will not be able to change your mind being as you likely live in CA and me in AZ.  My right to possess a *lawfully* purchased firearm isn't dictated by my state government or the federal government. You are likely  happy in the manner CA manages gun ownership...that's your right, it's how you voted.  

What CA militia are you talking about?  The CA national guard? or the ca state guard?  Anyway....the "militias" of aghanistan and vietnam managed to politcially defeat the  worlds greatest superpower and military.  You don't have to "beat" the US Army, you have to beat the US government.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> The constitution is very clear, Army is not the Air Force. The constitution also says Congress can mint coins not dollars. That is why the government does not print dollars and only mints coins. Its a very literal interpretation. You cannot argue that coin and dollars are just monies.
> 
> Article 1 Section 4 talks about Election. It does not grant every citizen the right to vote. Remember, when the USA was first founded, it is not a democracy. The founders were infact wary of democracies for it would lead to mob rule. So do not pretend that there is a right to vote in the USA in the constitution. Your quote supports this. Right to vote is not a national right if we were to interpret the constitution literally.


Are these examples of what you ponder, contemplate and worry about?
Whatever was left out of the Constitution was left to the states to implement and/or has been addressed through amendments to the Constitution.

The Air Force was once called the Army Air Force and was part of the US Army...

Here's something from wikipoo that you may find educational...or not.

The *United States Army Air Forces* (*USAAF* or *AAF*)[1] was the major land-based aerial warfare service component of the United States Army and _de facto_ aerial warfare service branch of the United States[2] during and immediately after World War II (1941–1945). It was created on 20 June 1941 as successor to the previous United States Army Air Corps and is the direct predecessor of the United States Air Force, today one of the six armed forces of the United States. The AAF was a component of the United States Army, which on 2 March 1942[1] was divided functionally by executive order into three autonomous forces: the Army Ground Forces, the United States Army Services of Supply (which in 1943 became the Army Service Forces), and the Army Air Forces. Each of these forces had a commanding general who reported directly to the Army Chief of Staff.

 The AAF succeeded both the Air Corps, which had been the statutory military aviation branch since 1926, and the GHQ Air Force, which had been activated in 1935 to quiet the demands of airmen for an independent Air Force similar to the Royal Air Force which had already been established in the United Kingdom. 
In its expansion and conduct of the war, the AAF became more than just an arm of the greater organization. By the end of World War II, the Army Air Forces had become virtually an independent service. By regulation and executive order, it was a subordinate agency of the United States Department of War (as were the Army Ground Forces and the Army Service Forces) tasked only with organizing, training, and equipping combat units, and limited in responsibility to the continental United States. 

entire article:








						United States Army Air Forces - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 5, 2022)

blam said:


> Not of topic as we are discussing if the constitution should be taken literally or not.
> 
> How do you think our California Militia can take on the US Army without these weapons? Remember, the 2nd amendment purpose is so that our state militia can take on the Federal government if there was ever a need.
> 
> ...


I know many gun owners and they are very aware of their rights and the second amendment.
I know many hunters and can think of none who have mentioned the right to bear arms and hunting in the same sentence,
You seem to be the one talking about if the Constitution should be taken literally....
I'll let SCOTUS, whether I agree or not, determine the constitutionality of federal laws.


----------



## watfly (May 5, 2022)

crush said:


> *REPORTER: "Does [Biden] support any limits on abortion?"*
> 
> *PSAKI: No
> 
> ...


The irony is that Biden has been fundamentally pro-life and is only pro-choice now for political reasons.  And Trump vice-versa.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> The irony is that Biden has been fundamentally pro-life and is only pro-choice now for political reasons.  And Trump vice-versa.


Biden, like many, many others, is opposed to abortion but also opposed to telling others how to conduct their personal lives.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> See Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment & the ruling itself.
> 
> 
> https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf
> ...


Now you are just being disingenuous. If it was so obvious, then why did it take until 2015 to suddenly recognize that same sex marriage was a covered by the 14th amendment. Obviously, if its that obvious then it was a unanimous decision ... wait, it wasn't - shock horror, it was 5-4. That's a slam dunk!

But its ok, as its the same SCOTUS with the same members ... wait.

You know all this.

The sky isn't falling (for me) but others are concerned, and frankly they are probably right to be, irrespective of what you are pretending to believe. You are far too clued in to not realize this.

FWIW, I'm not an abortion advocate, but as I stated earlier its not black & white and I do not believe I can or should dictate something like this to others. 

TBH, the leak is probably a good thing as it may influence (not necessarily change) the final opinion.


----------



## espola (May 5, 2022)

I have a new conspiracy theory to add to the mix -- the leaker was a lower-level employee of the court who was appalled by the poor level of research and reasoning in Alito's draft and wanted everyone to have a look at it in order to discredit that wing of the bench.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> "there are plenty of groups who are anti-contraceptives and believe in abstinence only".  None of which have the substance, standing or public support to pursue a ban of contraception.  If you take a look at the "abstinence in peril" articles, they don't provide any evidence of a group, or a case even in the lower courts that would be a challenge to contraceptives.   It's a "chicken little" and fear mongering approach to curry votes for the November election.
> 
> Of course, if I was a leftist I would exploit the Supreme Court's decision as well in an attempt to prevent a Red Wave.  The SC has handed the far left a gift for November.  It will have an impact that benefits the left, but mostly with those that are single issue abortion voters.  I suspect at the end of the day inflation will far outweigh abortion rights.  Let's be honest, there is really nothing an individual can do to fight inflation, but there is plenty an individual can do to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.


There have been plenty of single issue abortion voter for the GOP for years. I read an article some time back which was basically positing that it is more beneficial to the GOP to remain in place than not. We may see, although probably not in Nov. 

It will work in the Ds favor, but with redistricting they are probably baked in to lose, plus its mid-terms which they are also baked in to lose. Throw in inflation etc. and its looking very ugly. The economy is doing well but that will be over shadowed by the aforementioned.

The whole far left narrative is lazy. The overwhelming majority of D candidates and Congress people are not far left. If the Ds get a bounce around the country, it won't be the far left getting voted in (generally) but typical D candidates.


----------



## whatithink (May 5, 2022)

espola said:


> I have a new conspiracy theory to add to the mix -- the leaker was a lower-level employee of the court who was appalled by the poor level of research and reasoning in Alito's draft and wanted everyone to have a look at it in order to discredit that wing of the bench.


I read a theory that it was leaked by those in favor as the 5-4 majority was in jeopardy.


----------



## what-happened (May 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Biden, like many, many others, is opposed to abortion but also opposed to telling others how to conduct their personal lives.


because our  leaders can only have  so much conviction.  I'm sure biden is anti crime but feels good about what's happening in CA walgreens.  

Where do you get your material from.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> The irony is that Biden has been fundamentally pro-life and is only pro-choice now for political reasons.  And Trump vice-versa.


It happens all the time.  Most reasonable people come around to protecting life after they have kids.  Joe believes whatever BO tells him to believe in. I see it like this.  Selling aborted organs and having the right to kill your baby up to birth is whacko and just sick and we need laws to protect the individual rights of the baby.  Sorry mom, you dont own your kid that is renting space in your womb.  I think people think they own their kid.  I have friends that are forcing their dd to go to college.  Well, not force but bribing them.  If they don't go, they won;t receive money, love or acceptance.  No car anymore and will be required to pay mom and dad rent if they dont go to college and be like dad.  Horrible control we put on kids in this country. No jab, no in person college.  The lady who claims to be Native American is a liar and is causing all this hysteria.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

I guess Joe said being a child of God gives the child of God the basic right to kill the children of God before their born.  Welcome to America everyone.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

whatithink said:


> There have been plenty of single issue abortion voter for the GOP for years. I read an article some time back which was basically positing that it is more beneficial to the GOP to remain in place than not. We may see, although probably not in Nov.
> 
> It will work in the Ds favor, but with redistricting they are probably baked in to lose, plus its mid-terms which they are also baked in to lose. Throw in inflation etc. and its looking very ugly. The economy is doing well but that will be over shadowed by the aforementioned.
> 
> The whole far left narrative is lazy. The overwhelming majority of D candidates and Congress people are not far left. If the Ds get a bounce around the country, it won't be the far left getting voted in (generally) but typical D candidates.


I don't disagree with you that there are abortion single issue voters on the GOP side.   That's why GOP politicians pander to the pro-life group even though they may be at least partially pro-choice (See Trump as I mentioned).

Most D's and R's are moderate in most respects.  I would suspect that you, I, DH, W-H and Husker could sit down and develop a reasonable abortion policy whereas our politicians are too entrenched in pandering to their outspoken base and "winning" to compromise on something that works for most Americans.

The far left mantra is far from lazy, you just have a blind spot to it.  The far left may be the minority but they're controlling the narrative of the Dem's.  Look at the new Board of Disinformation, the melt down over Twitter, the claims of contraceptive's in peril or worse the claims of LGBTQ's not being able to attend school, the failure to call out Antifa, just buy an Electric car (ie reduce oil production), the dossier and so on.   The far right has the "election was stolen" among other things but it doesn't have much traction with the R majority, they barely talk about it on Fox (and ironically the D cry was the 2016 election was stolen because the Russians posted on Facebook).  Most R's believe MTG and Gaetz are nut jobs.  Though I do strongly disagree with the censuring of McCain and Kinzinger.

I will give credit to the D parents that are finally starting to call out the left's woke bullshit that is negatively impacting their kids.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> *I would suspect that you, I, DH, W-H and Husker could sit down and develop a reasonable abortion policy*


Sorry, no thanks.  I'm speaking on behalf of ALL the kids with a beating heart wat fly.  We only want the Creator and his Son Yeshua to be the one's developing the next abortion policy.  Mankind is not in a good place to handle life.  We need help asap!!!


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

I don't normally post memes but I thought Husker would appreciate this one.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

crush said:


> Sorry, no thanks.  I'm speaking on behalf of ALL the kids with a beating heart wat fly.  We only want the Creator and his Son Yeshua to be the one's developing the next abortion policy.  Mankind is not in a good place to handle life.  We need help asap!!!


I respect your opinion (and I appreciate your personal story) and in some ways the pro-life argument is more compelling, but that's not where the majority is at, combined with the fact that half us aren't women.  Fortunately, the number of abortions over the years has declined dramatically. Our best weapon against abortion is contraception.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> I respect your opinion (and I appreciate your personal story) and in some ways the pro-life argument is more compelling, but that's not where the majority is at, combined with the fact that half us aren't women.  Fortunately, the number of abortions over the years has declined dramatically. Our best weapon against abortion is contraception.


I understand the majority want the choice to keep or abort the baby.  I'm 100% with you on that.  I guess you and Hound can come up with a cut off date on when too late is too late?  I agree we need to teach contraception on both sides.  The girls are left with taking the pill and that stuff is shit. Hormones and more hormones and young women change for the worse.  it sucks.  Young men have no idea how to put a coat on.  The boys are a mess wat fly.  Pornhub is not a good teacher either.  They have no clue on what their doing.  My wife and I dated for almost 16 months with just a kiss at the door until our wedding night.  If I can wait, any man can wait....lol.  It's called self control.  I think one issue we have is telling teens and young people they have to wait until their legally married to have sex.  That is a big problem because marriage is insane and very difficult to pull off and not very successful.  I have so many ideas because i worked with the youth at church and I also was one.  It's not easy being a male or a female.  No one is teaching the truth and we have all these religions and all these rules and taboos.  We need to get it all out in the open and then educate the youth.  Killing a baby that is alive and kicking is not going to fix our country.  We need to get the root cause of all this.  Thanks for respecting my life bro.  I only wanted a chance, just like all the rest.  Trust me, souls are trying to come help the planet heal and others don;t want them to be born.  It's crazy!!!


----------



## whatithink (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> I don't disagree with you that there are abortion single issue voters on the GOP side.   That's why GOP politicians pander to the pro-life group even though they may be at least partially pro-choice (See Trump as I mentioned).
> 
> Most D's and R's are moderate in most respects.  I would suspect that you, I, DH, W-H and Husker could sit down and develop a reasonable abortion policy whereas our politicians are too entrenched in pandering to their outspoken base and "winning" to compromise on something that works for most Americans.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt we agree far more than we disagree and could produce common sense policies that are beyond the collective incompetent idiots in DC.

I don't agree on the far left/right piece. There is a very vocal far left segment on the Ds but their numbers are relatively small. The "Freedom Caucus" is a larger block of GOP Congress people and could hold a significant sway in Congress after the mid terms.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

Interesting how much of the press carries water for the D's. 

Had we not had RvW we would have long ago finalized this through legislation. You don't hear concerns about abortion in Europe. Why? Because they legislatively solved the problem decades ago. 

Most people don't realize the rules in Europe for example. And most of our press are not interested in telling that story. 

With that in mind...


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I have no doubt we agree far more than we disagree and could produce common sense policies that are beyond the collective incompetent idiots in DC.
> 
> I don't agree on the far left/right piece. There is a very vocal far left segment on the Ds but their numbers are relatively small. The "Freedom Caucus" is a larger block of GOP Congress people and could hold a significant sway in Congress after the mid terms.


Yes I think you and I are arguing around the edges.

I'm no fan of the "freedom caucus", but you're speculating at this point.  The far left policies have actually been put into practice with no cash bail and defunding the police which has happened in over 20 cities.  Add Gascon and Boudin into the equation and the far left has had a significant impact on your party and it's policies.   Particularly here in California and especially San Francisco.  You can't honestly dispute the fact that SF has been turned into a cesspool as a result, at least in part, of leftist policies.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yes I think you and I are arguing around the edges.
> 
> I'm no fan of the "freedom caucus", but you're speculating at this point.  The far left policies have actually been put into practice with no cash bail and defunding the police which has happened in over 20 cities.  Add Gascon and Boudin into the equation and the far left has had a significant impact on your party and it's policies.   Particularly here in California and especially San Francisco.  You can't honestly dispute the fact that SF has been turned into a cesspool as a result, at least in part, of leftist policies.


Support for BLM, idiots like gascon and other similar types in other cities are a major reason why minorities are moving away from the Ds. 

Crime spikes have really hurt those who can least afford it...ie minorities. 

But as you see in SF and other cities with the smash and grab stuff at places like Walgreens, etc..now your middle of the road D moderates are now thinking WTF is going on with these policies.

Right now the D party is run by a small but vocal group who want to defund the police, are all in on transgenderism, all in on open borders, etc. Those issues do not resonate with the moderate Ds, the independents, or most minorities. As a matter of fact they turn off most people.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

The early polling has been interesting.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Support for BLM, idiots like gascon and other similar types in other cities are a major reason why minorities are moving away from the Ds.
> 
> Crime spikes have really hurt those who can least afford it...ie minorities.
> 
> ...


Most of my D friends are simple minded but are compromised with lucrative jobs or own companies that are in the middle of all this BS money making enterprise and are bought off to STFU, take the jabs and boosters to be fully compliant, obey orders from above, wear a mask, support Ukraine in their war against Russia, support Joe sending $33,000,000,000 to help the Ukraines and 100% be pro-choice up to birth and don't believe for a second that Hunter's lap top is real and not from hell and just Russia disinformation.  I actually have an old dear friend who hates me now.  He really does hate me and will not talk to me because I told him the truth, that he was a big phony, fake, selfish and self centered, mama's boy and abig whimp.  It's guys like this that women don't want to keep their baby.  I know one young lady who was in love with her man.  Dude told her, "let's keep it."  Well, dude bailed 5 months into her pregnancy and now wants her to abort.  Now what?  I would like @watfly and @whatithink to give their two cents on this moral dilemma.  Let me add the father who bailed got arrested days later.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> The early polling has been interesting.
> 
> View attachment 13479


I hope that ultimately that people vote with their pocket books, but I'm not ready to claim victory yet.

Any gains the Biden administration had from the SC decision may be being wiped out as we speak.  The stock market was propping Biden up to some extent and now with it falling (which I hope is only temporary) people are going to be really unhappy when their retirement and/or college savings gets impacted.  I lost a full year of room and board yesterday for my daughter who will be a freshman next year and a full year of out-of-state tuition since the beginning of the year.  Meanwhile with inflation that cost of college will only be going up.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 6, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Support for BLM, idiots like gascon and other similar types in other cities are a major reason why minorities are moving away from the Ds.
> 
> Crime spikes have really hurt those who can least afford it...ie minorities.
> 
> ...


This sounds like some sort of racist, homophobic, xenophobic, ignorant, bigoted, anti organic/living Constitution, nazi rhetoric....


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

It's said that the world has about 73,000,000 abortions a year or 29% of all pregnancies.  61% of the seventy three million fetuses aborted were done through medical procedures such as a vacuum aspiration.  95% of the 61% were aborted at the clinics.  The clinics are selling the baby parts and that is wrong you guys.  Trust me, this is big money business folks.  Plus, some babies live through the abortion and survive.  Now what?  Where is baby with no birth certificate?  This is where things get gnarly and evil, poo!!!


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

crush said:


> I know one young lady who was in love with her man.  Dude told her, "let's keep it."  Well, dude bailed 5 months into her pregnancy and now wants her to abort.  Now what?  I would like @watfly and @whatithink to give their two cents on this moral dilemma.  Let me add the father who bailed got arrested days later.


While I have an opinion on abortion policy, the actual decision to have an abortion is a personal one and none of my business.  And in my opinion its the young lady's decision in this case and the guy can "fuck off".


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> I hope that ultimately that people vote with their pocket books, but I'm not ready to claim victory yet.
> 
> Any gains the Biden administration had from the SC decision may be being wiped out as we speak.  The stock market was propping Biden up to some extent and now with it falling (which I hope is only temporary) people are going to be really unhappy when their retirement and/or college savings gets impacted.  I lost a full year of room and board yesterday for my daughter who will be a freshman next year and a full year of out-of-state tuition since the beginning of the year.  Meanwhile with inflation that cost of college will only be going up.


The #1 Profit Center in the world to make $$$$$ is Human Trafficking watfly.  Think about that today as we try and figure out how long is too long to be allowed to kill infants or fetus or baby or whatever you want to call IT.  That means the foundation of all money in the world is built on humans and their slavery.  Some slaves are forced into slavery and are actually born into it.  Some slaves think their free and sell themselves out to make really good money for a chance at wealth and all that comes with making lot's of money.  A slave is a slave.  The rich Serfs are the one's that bug me the most and the slaves that look up to the Serfs and they want to be a Serf ((Elitist)), instead of fighting for freedom like William Wallace.  My best pal the teacher is looking to retire early if they give him a deal.  This guy is smart and even he says their is no way his 403b promises will be able to give out those insane promised ROIs.  Social Secruity is pushing folks back.  I do have some really good news.  I will share with you if you ask me to.


----------



## whatithink (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yes I think you and I are arguing around the edges.
> 
> I'm no fan of the "freedom caucus", but you're speculating at this point.  The far left policies have actually been put into practice with no cash bail and defunding the police which has happened in over 20 cities.  Add Gascon and Boudin into the equation and the far left has had a significant impact on your party and it's policies.   Particularly here in California and especially San Francisco.  You can't honestly dispute the fact that SF has been turned into a cesspool as a result, at least in part, of leftist policies.


Not my party (registered I and vote R or D depending on the candidate) and the last time I was in SF (a few years back) it wasn't pleasant.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I have an opinion on abortion policy, the actual decision to have an abortion is a personal one and none of my business.  And in my opinion its the young lady's decision in this case and the guy can "fuck off".


Ok, were getting deeper.  What about at 8 months and dude bails?  Still ladies decision?


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

crush said:


> Ok, were getting deeper.  What about at 8 months and dude bails?  Still ladies decision?


Still a personal decision and based on the law of the state in terms of legality, my opinion is not relevant.  I will say that when my daughter was in the NICU I saw babies not much more than a pound that ultimately survived and likely lived normal lives.


----------



## crush (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Still a personal decision and based on the law of the state in terms of legality, my opinion is not relevant.  I will say that when my daughter was in the NICU I saw babies not much more than a pound that ultimately survived and likely lived normal lives.


You get me and I get you.  I love you and I know you to be a good father and good man.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> hope that ultimately that people vote with their pocket books, but I'm not ready to claim victory yet.


In the end most people vote for the most important thing...their pocket books. 

In many yrs people don't notice economics/finances.

With raging inflammation this yr they will.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> With raging inflammation this yr they will.


Was that a Freudian slip or a personal issue?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Still a personal decision and based on the law of the state in terms of legality, my opinion is not relevant.  I will say that when my daughter was in the NICU I saw babies not much more than a pound that ultimately survived and likely lived normal lives.


I have a sister who was born early, tipping the scales at 4.5 lbs. They told my parents that she would be slow to learn and probably be always behind physically.

Couldn't have been further from reality.


----------



## watfly (May 6, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I have a sister who was born early, tipping the scales at 4.5 lbs. They told my parents that she would be slow to learn and probably be always behind physically.
> 
> Couldn't have been further from reality.


Similar weight as my daughter, although the predictions weren't as dire.  Not the tallest person in the world, but she was accepted to Michigan so she did OK from that standpoint.


----------



## thirteenknots (May 6, 2022)

espola said:


> I have a new conspiracy theory to add to the mix -- the leaker was a lower-level employee of the court who was appalled by the poor level of research and reasoning in Alito's draft and wanted everyone to have a look at it in order to discredit that wing of the bench.



Do You remember taking this Oath ?

*The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):*
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and 
defend the Constitution of the United States against all 
enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and 
allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the 
President of the United States and the orders of the officers 
appointed over me, according to regulations and the 
Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

You would think the first lady would be able to sell more books. And yet it isn't selling. Is that another sign of the public being unhappy with the current administration?



"Two new books featuring Washington political royalty debuted as huge flops, suggesting there is limited interest in anything beyond a focus on presidential politics.

The latest failure is Meghan McCain's memoir, Bad Republican, released April 26.

According to an NPD BookScan provided to Secrets, it sold just 244 copies in the first few days.

A book agent said the low sales were a surprise considering the celebrity status of the former View star and outspoken daughter of former Sen. John McCain.

And then, there was the equally disappointing first-week sales of just 250 copies of the biography of Jill Biden, Jill: A Biography of the First Lady, by two Associated Press reporters."


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 6, 2022)

New Times Best Sellers list...


Just Tyrus by Tyrus


New Times Best Sellers list....






						LibGuides: New York Times Best Sellers: Current List
					

LibGuides: New York Times Best Sellers: Current List




					westportlibrary.libguides.com


----------



## Multi Sport (May 6, 2022)

U.S. special counsel John Durham won a legal victory this week when a judge presiding over his case against cybersecurity lawyer Michael Sussmann ruled that some Hillary Clinton-Fusion GPS documents previously kept secret under attorney-client privilege assertions can be revealed in court.

The documents, Durham argued, are crucial in building his case against Sussmann, a former Perkins Coie partner accused of lying to the FBI when presenting alleged evidence connecting then-presidential candidate Donald Trump's campaign to the Kremlin-connected Alfa Bank.

At the time Sussmann presented the evidence to FBI lawyer James Baker, he claimed that he was acting as a private citizen and not on behalf of any client. But billing records later showed that Sussmann had charged the time to Clinton's campaign.

Durham is seeking to prove that Sussmann was indeed secretly acting on behalf of the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign when he fabricated allegations against the Trump campaign, alleging collusion with Russia.

In court, Durham argued that the CIA determined Sussmann's purported evidence against Trump was not "technically plausible," did not "withstand technical scrutiny," and appeared to be "user-created and not machine/tool generated."


----------



## Desert Hound (May 6, 2022)

Abortion isn't the issue it used to be. Over the yrs attitudes have changed/moderated on it.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 7, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Abortion isn't the issue it used to be. Over the yrs attitudes have changed/moderated on it.
> 
> View attachment 13483


Coming to a mailbox near you.


----------



## Brav520 (May 7, 2022)

Smartest man that Joe Biden knows 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522750600592736256


----------



## crush (May 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> U.S. special counsel John Durham won a legal victory this week when a judge presiding over his case against cybersecurity lawyer Michael Sussmann ruled that some Hillary Clinton-Fusion GPS documents previously kept secret under attorney-client privilege assertions can be revealed in court.
> 
> The documents, Durham argued, are crucial in building his case against Sussmann, a former Perkins Coie partner accused of lying to the FBI when presenting alleged evidence connecting then-presidential candidate Donald Trump's campaign to the Kremlin-connected Alfa Bank.
> 
> ...


Dude is so sus, he will be pleading guilty very soon.  I love how attorneys play the game of life.  Most of them have zero emotion or empathy for others and that makes them great lawyers.  All of this is tied to everything our country has had to endure the last 6 years.  This is called Big Time cheating and were all stuck in the middle.


----------



## crush (May 7, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Smartest man that Joe Biden knows
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522750600592736256


----------



## Multi Sport (May 7, 2022)

President Biden told workers at an Ohio plant that he’s traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan more than 50 times in his long political career but based on previous statements made during his presidential campaign that number doesn’t seem to add up.


----------



## crush (May 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> President Biden told workers at an Ohio plant that he’s traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan more than 50 times in his long political career but based on previous statements made during his presidential campaign that number doesn’t seem to add up.


Hey bro, can you believe what is going on in this country is actually really going on?  I wake up every day SMFH wondering how men like Espola sleep at night.  Honestly, he now knows the truth and he still is playing little immature boy games with Husker Du.  This is not cute anymore.  Joe and Hunter did quite a number on our country.  Add all the other Sons of Politicians ((bitches)) that are in on the heist and we got scammed and played all in one.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> President Biden told workers at an Ohio plant that he’s traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan more than 50 times in his long political career but based on previous statements made during his presidential campaign that number doesn’t seem to add up.


Now add up the lies by the head of the  previous administration while in office.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Now add up the lies by the head of the  previous administration while in office.


Hey Daffy, outstanding bit of logic. 
Justify Joe's lies by pointing your finger at the last President?
Joe is a known liar and plagiarist. 
News update: Trump is no longer in office.
Joe Biden is President. Joe Biden is a long time liar.


----------



## crush (May 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Now add up the lies by the head of the  previous administration while in office.


----------



## dad4 (May 7, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Hey Daffy, outstanding bit of logic.
> Justify Joe's lies by pointing your finger at the last President?
> Joe is a known liar and plagiarist.
> News update: Trump is no longer in office.
> Joe Biden is President. Joe Biden is a long time liar.


Ok.

Candidate A thinks he can hit Mexico with cruise missiles and no one will notice.

Candidate B thinks it's a good time for a nap.

If that's my choice, I'm voting for candidate B.  Naps are less dangerous.

I'm willing to vote for a Republican, but only if you nominate a grown-up this time.


----------



## crush (May 7, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Candidate A thinks he can hit Mexico with cruise missiles and no one will notice.
> 
> ...


President A gas a few questions like, "why don't just knock out the drug manufacturer in Mexico with missiles?"  105,000 deaths in 12 months from fentanyl.  

President B has a son with a PW of, a(@)F&$$69 on his lap top from hell.  Plus, their are some very disturbing videos of the Big Guy doing some crazy. Also, emails of pops getting 10% kickback.

Which President you like their dad?  I take A


----------



## Multi Sport (May 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Now add up the lies by the head of the  previous administration while in office.


Stay on point Sunshine... has no merit here unless you're a tit for tat guy. Or maybe a sexist...


----------



## Multi Sport (May 7, 2022)

Black Republicans rise up after ‘The View’ host Sunny Hostin calls them ‘oxymoron’
					

Indiana congressional candidate Jennifer-Ruth Green had something to say after “The View” co-host Sunny Hostin called Black Republicans an “oxymoron.”




					m.washingtontimes.com


----------



## what-happened (May 7, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Candidate A thinks he can hit Mexico with cruise missiles and no one will notice.
> 
> ...


taking a nap is less dangerous than launching a cruise missile at drug cartel lab/manufacturing facilities in mexico?  How is targeting drug cartels in Mexico that dangerous?  haven't we been launching cruise missles willy nilly at dangerous countries for some time?  I'm thinking taking a nap and letting cartel business along the souther border increase in velocity is quite dangerous...actually, it is dangerous, dangerous on a daily basis. 

but go ahead and vote for the napper...


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 7, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Candidate A thinks he can hit Mexico with cruise missiles and no one will notice.
> 
> ...


You think Biden is a grown up? Listen to yourself daddy-o...jeeezzzzus!
I've never voted for Trump, never voted for Biden...
The Democrats nominated Hillary & the Republicans nominated Trump...wtf..
That's the best America has to offer? 
We deserve the turmoil, the unrest, the stupidity, the plagiarizing & liars we have voted into office. 
The sad thing is it's as if Democrats said we raise your Trump and vote in Biden...
How's that working out for us?
Let's see...the Afghan withdrawal, the "closed" Mexican border, gas prices (Putin's fault), inflation (transitory), teaching gender identity to 5-8 year olds, murder and other serious crimes are rising faster than inflation.
Biden just may get us into a nuclear war with administration leaking national intelligence that was used to kill Russian Generals and sink their cruiser.
Leaks are no big deal for Joe, except his leaking f'ing bladder, which h's surely unaware of...
And the beat goes on...lada dadda dee...lada dadda die...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 8, 2022)

what-happened said:


> taking a nap is less dangerous than launching a cruise missile at drug cartel lab/manufacturing facilities in mexico?  How is targeting drug cartels in Mexico that dangerous?  haven't we been launching cruise missles willy nilly at dangerous countries for some time?  I'm thinking taking a nap and letting cartel business along the souther border increase in velocity is quite dangerous...actually, it is dangerous, dangerous on a daily basis.
> 
> but go ahead and vote for the napper...


In the real world presidents often find out quickly they can’t just do what they want to with the snap of their fingers. Like Obama and Gitmo, trump and most of his ideas, Biden with saving America, there are always other people who need to go along with the idea. And when one is a blatant idiot like trump people notice, well at least most people.


----------



## tenacious (May 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You think Biden is a grown up? Listen to yourself daddy-o...jeeezzzzus!
> I've never voted for Trump, never voted for Biden...
> The Democrats nominated Hillary & the Republicans nominated Trump...wtf..
> That's the best America has to offer?
> ...


If it looks like Trump is going to win the Republican nomination my guess is even Biden's wife will be pushing him to hang it up. That said, if Biden doesn't run... who is next in line? Kamala is going to get the African American vote but I don't see her beating Trump. And heck, even I would vote for Trump over a socialist.

Also I don't know that Trump has a lock on winning the Republican nomination? Obviously he still sells newspapers so the media like to hype him. But most fiscal conservatives find him a bit underwhelming, and now that the debate is moving back to social issues like abortion... I wonder how much more use for him evangelical leaders are going to have?


----------



## crush (May 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You think Biden is a grown up? Listen to yourself daddy-o...jeeezzzzus!
> I've never voted for Trump, never voted for Biden...
> The Democrats nominated Hillary & the Republicans nominated Trump...wtf..
> That's the best America has to offer?
> ...


Happy Mothers Day to your mama first and foremost sir.  I know you love your mama and I love my mama 
I did not pay any attention to politics until my wife told me the night before the 2016 election that t was going to pull off the upset.  My son and I laughed at her.  Well, the next night she was right and we were wrong.  The next night after that, her bff Anna came over crying and freaking out because t won and now the Russians and t are one.  She blamed me because I told her at least t can get abortion fixed.  Oh boy Lion Eyes, her eyes went for ape crazy and I've never seen a person who was so nice to me for years turn into a mean lady over abortion.  Anyway, I got labeled a Trump supporter ((did not vote for either party)) after that and he we are almost 6 years later.  I know you hate Putin but someone is pulling the strings on him and his country and our country and it's not good either way.


----------



## dad4 (May 8, 2022)

tenacious said:


> If it looks like Trump is going to win the Republican nomination my guess is even Biden's wife will be pushing him to hang it up. That said, if Biden doesn't run... who is next in line? Kamala is going to get the African American vote but I don't see her beating Trump. And heck, even I would vote for Trump over a socialist.
> 
> Also I don't know that Trump has a lock on winning the Republican nomination? Obviously he still sells newspapers so the media like to hype him. But most fiscal conservatives find him a bit underwhelming, and now that the debate is moving back to social issues like abortion... I wonder how much more use for him evangelical leaders are going to have?


Evangelicals are willing to ignore the personal morals because they like the court appointments.  They'll back him.

Dems are in a real fix in 24.  Biden will be too old, and no other centrist could make it through the primary.  There are a ton of progressives who could easily get 170 electoral votes, but none who can get 270.

Which leaves Dems nominating a leftist and hoping people remember Jan 06.  Not a solid plan.


----------



## crush (May 8, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Evangelicals are willing to ignore the personal morals because they like the court appointments.  They'll back him.
> 
> Dems are in a real fix in 24.  Biden will be too old, and no other centrist could make it through the primary.  There are a ton of progressives who could easily get 170 electoral votes, but none who can get 270.
> 
> Which leaves Dems nominating a leftist and hoping people remember Jan 06.  Not a solid plan.


Good luck to the D's cheating this time around.  The Military has been in charge of the 2016 and 2020 National Elections.  They let them steal and cheat in 2020 so they can catch them ALL.  All caught on video, text and email.  I would be very careful what you preach on here daddy.


----------



## crush (May 8, 2022)




----------



## tenacious (May 8, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Evangelicals are willing to ignore the personal morals because they like the court appointments.  They'll back him.
> 
> Dems are in a real fix in 24.  Biden will be too old, and no other centrist could make it through the primary.  There are a ton of progressives who could easily get 170 electoral votes, but none who can get 270.
> 
> Which leaves Dems nominating a leftist and hoping people remember Jan 06.  Not a solid plan.


My read is the conservatives have the courts. Although besides abortion I don't see any other wedge issues that gets folks fired up like saving babies. So they are going to keep pushing on the abortion issue, trying to outlaw it next at the federal level. Which means they are going to have to start winning hearts and minds in blue states... and I don't see how Trump is going to be useful toward that goal?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 8, 2022)

tenacious said:


> If it looks like Trump is going to win the Republican nomination my guess is even Biden's wife will be pushing him to hang it up. That said, if Biden doesn't run... who is next in line? Kamala is going to get the African American vote but I don't see her beating Trump. And heck, even I would vote for Trump over a socialist.
> 
> Also I don't know that Trump has a lock on winning the Republican nomination? Obviously he still sells newspapers so the media like to hype him. But most fiscal conservatives find him a bit underwhelming, and now that the debate is moving back to social issues like abortion... I wonder how much more use for him evangelical leaders are going to have?


Republicans should walk away from Trump...


----------



## crush (May 8, 2022)




----------



## whatithink (May 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You think Biden is a grown up? Listen to yourself daddy-o...jeeezzzzus!
> I've never voted for Trump, never voted for Biden...
> The Democrats nominated Hillary & the Republicans nominated Trump...wtf..
> That's the best America has to offer?
> We deserve the turmoil, the unrest, the stupidity, the plagiarizing & liars we have voted into office.


Its not even the presidential nominees, but the veeps as well. I guess when the #1 is Trump, Biden or Clinton, who cares that the "heart beat away" is Pence, Harris or Kaine - FFS!


----------



## watfly (May 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Republicans should walk away from Trump...


Though IMO DeSantis is not the answer.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 9, 2022)

At some point CA is going to need to create more reservois and build desalination plants. I see there are plans to build one plant, but as usual the usual groups are trying to block it.

CA and the SW are growing. The need for water will only grow.



			It's not even summer, and California's two largest reservoirs are at 'critically low' levels


----------



## dad4 (May 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> At some point CA is going to need to create more reservois and build desalination plants. I see there are plans to build one plant, but as usual the usual groups are trying to block it.
> 
> CA and the SW are growing. The need for water will only grow.
> 
> ...


Agree with you on water storage, but I don’t see desalination as a solution.  The fuel impacts are too high.

How do you meet your carbon emissions goals if you are releasing 3 pounds of CO2 per cubic meter of water created?  We’re better off getting rid of our ornamental grass and replacing it with semi-arid plants.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

I saw a figure that estimates 80% of rain water in SoCal winds up flowing into the ocean
An inch of rainfall generates something like 3.8 billion gallons of runoff 
Might be prudent to capture some of that water and put it to use


----------



## watfly (May 9, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Agree with you on water storage, but I don’t see desalination as a solution.  The fuel impacts are too high.
> 
> How do you meet your carbon emissions goals if you are releasing 3 pounds of CO2 per cubic meter of water created?  We’re better off getting rid of our ornamental grass and replacing it with semi-arid plants.


We live in a desert, we should act like it.

Almond farmers dispute that it requires a 1.1 gallons to grow one almond, they claim its 33% less than that which is still a huge number.









						California’s agricultural water policies are nuts
					

It takes 1.1 gallons of water to produce one almond or pistachio nut.



					www.gainesville.com
				






Lion Eyes said:


> I saw a figure that estimates 80% of rain water in SoCal winds up flowing into the ocean
> An inch of rainfall generates something like 3.8 billion gallons of runoff
> Might be prudent to capture some of that water and put it to use


Fun fact.  In California its legal to collect rain water for personal use at your home.  In some Western states it is not legal because they claim that rainwater belongs to those that own the water rights.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> We live in a desert, we should act like it.
> 
> Almond farmers dispute that it requires a 1.1 gallons to grow one almond, they claim its 33% less than that which is still a huge number.
> 
> ...


WTF?


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> We live in a desert, we should act like it.
> 
> Almond farmers dispute that it requires a 1.1 gallons to grow one almond, they claim its 33% less than that which is still a huge number.
> 
> ...





			States Where It Is Illegal to Collect Rainwater 2022


----------



## Desert Hound (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I saw a figure that estimates 80% of rain water in SoCal winds up flowing into the ocean
> An inch of rainfall generates something like 3.8 billion gallons of runoff
> Might be prudent to capture some of that water and put it to use


CA has not done any major work on its reservoirs (by that I mean adding any real capacity) since the 1960s when the state had half the population it currently does. 

It needs to build more. And I suspect that if that doesn't work or they don't do it in a timely fashion, they will move to desalination. The state is still growing and the demand for water will increase.


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> CA has not done any major work on its reservoirs (by that I mean adding any real capacity) since the 1960s when the state had half the population it currently does.
> 
> It needs to build more. And I suspect that if that doesn't work or they don't do it in a timely fashion, they will move to desalination. The state is still growing and the demand for water will increase.


I fail to see the benefit of having more empty reservoirs.


----------



## watfly (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> States Where It Is Illegal to Collect Rainwater 2022


I should rephrase.  Collection of rainwater is heavily restricted in some Western states and requires a permit which can be very difficult to obtain.  Policies are changing though.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> I fail to see the benefit of having more empty reservoirs.


Brilliant!
There are some who are in favor of collecting rainwater into storm drains and allowing that rain to run into the ocean.

Apr 15, 2015 — An inch of rainfall in L.A. generates 3.8 billion gallons of runoff, _so_ you're talking about _more_ than 12 billion gallons of _water_ that could be ...








						Why Does California Let Billions Of Gallons Of Fresh Water Flow Straight Into The Ocean?
					

A Q&A with Ashoka Fellow and urban water expert Andy Lipkis If you’ve been paying attention, you know that California is in the midst of a severe multi-year drought. Earlier this month, Governor Jerry Brown, standing on a dry Sierra meadow that’s normally buried under many feet of snow this time...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Brilliant!
> There are some who are in favor of collecting rainwater into storm drains and allowing that rain to run into the ocean.
> 
> Apr 15, 2015 — An inch of rainfall in L.A. generates 3.8 billion gallons of runoff, _so_ you're talking about _more_ than 12 billion gallons of _water_ that could be ...
> ...


Where would one build a reservoir to capture that rainwater runoff?


----------



## thirteenknots (May 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Coming to a mailbox near you.
> View attachment 13484



Deaths-and-Severe-Adverse-Events-after-the-use-of-Mifepristone-as-an-Abortifacient-from-September-2000-to-February-2019-copy5.pdf (issuesinlawandmedicine.com)


----------



## thirteenknots (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Where would one build a reservoir to capture that rainwater runoff?


Like the one that was behind your old house ?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Where would one build a reservoir to capture that rainwater runoff?


Great question.
I defer to the folks who make a living figuring out those matters...
There appears to be lots of information on line regarding watershed locations from the Tijuana River through Ventura County.
Enjoy!


----------



## thirteenknots (May 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the real world presidents often find out quickly they can’t just do what they want to with the snap of their fingers. Like Obama and Gitmo, trump and most of his ideas, Biden with saving America, there are always other people who need to go along with the idea. And when one is a blatant idiot like trump people notice, well at least most people.



If as YOU state " Trump is a blatant idiot ".
or a Train Wreck:



Then Biden is a:


----------



## thirteenknots (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> I fail to see the benefit of having more empty reservoirs.


Yep, no benefit:


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Great question.
> I defer to the folks who make a living figuring out those matters...
> There appears to be lots of information on line regarding watershed locations from the Tijuana River through Ventura County.
> Enjoy!


This is already being done to the limits of the available technology.  Read this and get back to us --





__





						Dividing the Waters: Blomquist, William A.: 9781558152106: Amazon.com: Books
					

Dividing the Waters [Blomquist, William A.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Dividing the Waters



					www.amazon.com


----------



## dad4 (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Where would one build a reservoir to capture that rainwater runoff?


Sierra and coastal range foothills, mostly.   It’s also possible to use early spring runoff to do groundwater recharge.

We used to store our summer water as snowpack.  With climate change, that isn’t an option anymore.  If we want to use the same water as before, we have to find another place to store it.  

Not cost free.  Building dams has serious impacts on fisheries.  But you have to weigh that against the fuel use and brine discharge of desalination plants.  Those aren’t cost free either.


----------



## crush (May 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> CA has not done any major work on its reservoirs (by that I mean adding any real capacity) since the 1960s when the state had half the population it currently does.
> 
> It needs to build more. And I suspect that if that doesn't work or they don't do it in a timely fashion, they will move to desalination. The state is still growing and the demand for water will increase.


I'm going up to Mount Shasta with the family to celebrate Mothers Day later this week.  I hear the lake is real low.  I'll takes some pics and report back.


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Sierra and coastal range foothills, mostly.   It’s also possible to use early spring runoff to do groundwater recharge.
> 
> We used to store our summer water as snowpack.  With climate change, that isn’t an option anymore.  If we want to use the same water as before, we have to find another place to store it.
> 
> Not cost free.  Building dams has serious impacts on fisheries.  But you have to weigh that against the fuel use and brine discharge of desalination plants.  Those aren’t cost free either.


My question was addressed to the proposal to capture rainwater in urban Southern California.  Dams in the mountains won't help with that.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce consumption. As a first step, restrict outdoor watering of anything but food sources unless using water reclaimed from wastewater or from private wells on the property where it is being consumed.   That allows public parks and golf courses to keep green while sacrificing suburban ego lawns.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> My question was addressed to the proposal to capture rainwater in urban Southern California.  Dams in the mountains won't help with that.
> 
> The obvious solution to me is to reduce consumption. As a first step, restrict outdoor watering of anything but food sources unless using water reclaimed from wastewater or from private wells on the property where it is being consumed.   That allows public parks and golf courses to keep green while sacrificing suburban ego lawns.


That is a bandaid solution. The population will continue to grow. CA and other western states need to start working on actual plans to keep/store more water.


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> That is a bandaid solution. The population will continue to grow. CA and other western states need to start working on actual plans to keep/store more water.


"Start working"?  You don't think that they aren't already doing that.

You hit on a key metric there -- population growth.  Try solving that first; it would be more effective than building empty reservoirs.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> This is already being done to the limits of the available technology.  Read this and get back to us --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I guess that desalination plants or perhaps floating icebergs down here are are only options...or come up with "new technology"??
Collecting billions of gallons of water going into the Pacific should be a top priority here in SoCal.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> "Start working"?  You don't think that they aren't already doing that.
> 
> You hit on a key metric there -- population growth.  Try solving that first; it would be more effective than building empty reservoirs.


Population control technology....?


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Well, I guess that desalination plants or perhaps floating icebergs down here are are only options...or come up with "new technology"??
> Collecting billions of gallons of water going into the Pacific should be a top priority here in SoCal.


How about an underwater pipeline down the coast starting in the Columbia River?


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Population control technology....?


Mathematical/biological fact -- if every woman limited herself to producing no more than one female child, the population growth puzzle would be solved in one generation.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> "Start working"?  You don't think that they aren't already doing that.
> 
> You hit on a key metric there -- population growth.  Try solving that first; it would be more effective than building empty reservoirs.


When one does any preliminary research one finds multiple references to expanding current reservoirs (many were expanded a decade ago) and of course there is this: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/big-california-reservoir-track-22b-federal-loan-83507679
Then of course there is the depletion of ground water.








						Rainy years can’t make up for California’s groundwater use
					

And without additional restrictions, they may not recover for several decades.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> When one does any preliminary research one finds multiple references to expanding current reservoirs (many were expanded a decade ago) and of course there is this: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/big-california-reservoir-track-22b-federal-loan-83507679
> Then of course there is the depletion of ground water.
> 
> 
> ...


The management and engineering involved in groundwater use are some of the major topics covered in the book I referenced above.  It goes into detail about the history of the development of every significant water basin in Orange and Los Angeles Counties (and to some degree beyond in its references to the Santa Ana River headwaters).

When I arrived here, my first bad impression of Southern California was the way that the river bottoms were paved over.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Mathematical/biological fact -- if every woman limited herself to producing no more than one female child, the population growth puzzle would be solved in one generation.


We could call that the China Syndrome and enforce it with more abortions...


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> We could call that the China Syndrome and enforce it with more abortions...


In America, we enforce such restrictions with taxes.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> In America, we enforce such restrictions with taxes.


Okay...
We can call the tax the China Syndrome Tax and enforce the collection with an abortion...
What a country!


----------



## watfly (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Mathematical/biological fact -- if every woman limited herself to producing no more than one female child, the population growth puzzle would be solved in one generation.


While I'm not proposing it, population control is the only "Green New Deal" that will have a substantial impact on our "carbon footprint".  Most other proposed strategies are simply virtue signaling.  We can be successful at improving water and air quality, but not much else with the environment if the population continues to grow.


----------



## crush (May 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I'm not proposing it, population control is the only "Green New Deal" that will have a substantial impact on our "carbon footprint".  Most other proposed strategies are simply virtue signaling.  We can be successful at improving water and air quality, but not much else with the environment if the population continues to grow.


Our dear Brother Gates wants to drop population by 15% and control the population all at the same time.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I'm not proposing it, population control is the only "Green New Deal" that will have a substantial impact on our "carbon footprint".  Most other proposed strategies are simply virtue signaling.  We can be successful at improving water and air quality, but not much else with the environment if the population continues to grow.


We could learn to live a less wasteful existence? Lol! “Not in ‘murica!”


----------



## baldref (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> In America, we enforce such restrictions with taxes.


bullshit. we reward welfare recipients more money for more children.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> "Start working"?  You don't think that they aren't already doing that.
> 
> You hit on a key metric there -- population growth.  Try solving that first; it would be more effective than building empty reservoirs.


"California has not built a major new reservoir since 1979. Since then, *multiple droughts have strained the state's water supply and renewed calls for more ways to capture and store water from the state's major rivers and streams*."

Poor leadership on the part of CA regarding the actual important things that a growing population needs. 









						Amid drought, California regulators advance major new reservoir project
					

The Sites Reservoir, which would be California's first major new reservoir since 1979, has cleared a key regulatory hurdle allowing it to stay eligible for $800 million in taxpayer money.




					www.latimes.com
				



.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 9, 2022)

"Let me remind you again: I reduced the federal deficit," Biden said in a speech on Wednesday. "All the talk about the deficit from my Republican friends, I love it. I've reduced it $350 billion in my first year in office. And we're on track to reduce it, by the end of September, by another 1 trillion, 500 billion dollars -- the largest drop ever."

The deficit has been smaller under the Biden administration than it was at the end of President Donald Trump's tenure. But the deficit has been bigger under the Biden administration than the nonpartisan federal Congressional Budget Office had projected it would be if the Biden-era federal government stuck with the laws that were in effect when Trump left office in early 2021.


"The actions of the administration and Congress have undoubtedly resulted in higher deficits, not smaller ones," Dan White, senior director at Moody's Analytics -- an economic research firm whose analysis Biden has repeatedly touted in his speeches -- said in an email. "It is encouraging that the administration has proposed some initiatives to bring down the deficit, but so far none of those initiatives has been seriously considered."


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> "California has not built a major new reservoir since 1979. Since then, *multiple droughts have strained the state's water supply and renewed calls for more ways to capture and store water from the state's major rivers and streams*."
> 
> Poor leadership on the part of CA regarding the actual important things that a growing population needs.
> 
> ...


As I already posted, more empty reservoirs do not solve the problem.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> As I already posted, more empty reservoirs do not solve the problem.


I always marvel at the floods in the Midwest and the blizzards everywhere but here . . . I guess a pipeline for water is out of the question?


----------



## Grace T. (May 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I'm not proposing it, population control is the only "Green New Deal" that will have a substantial impact on our "carbon footprint".  Most other proposed strategies are simply virtue signaling.  We can be successful at improving water and air quality, but not much else with the environment if the population continues to grow.


Not to impose on the conversation but this canard is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If immigration were to be reduced to near zero the us population would actually fall like it’s doing in much of the western and Asian worlds. scary things occur when populations fall as we can see now in China and are starting to see in japan

I agree population control is the main thing you would do if you really wanted to control climate change. There are others but they are equally painful and unrealistic:
-use European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)
-ban all but the most essential airtravel
-force everyone to become vegetarian
-switch to locally grown, heavily on gmo, non synthetic fertilizer based agriculture
-shoot the dogs and cats
-substantially outlaw automobiles
-massive nuclear power builds
-hard limits on the size of homes 
-communism which crashes the consumer economy.

back to lurking


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Not to impose on the conversation but this canard is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If immigration were to be reduced to near zero the us population would actually fall like it’s doing in much of the western and Asian worlds. scary things occur when populations fall as we can see now in China and are starting to see in japan
> 
> I agree population control is the main thing you would do if you really wanted to control climate change. There are others but they are equally painful and unrealistic:
> -use European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)
> ...


Good riddance.


----------



## espola (May 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I always marvel at the floods in the Midwest and the blizzards everywhere but here . . . I guess a pipeline for water is out of the question?


Pipeline from where?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 9, 2022)

espola said:


> Pipeline from where?


Good question. Boston?


----------



## espola (May 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Not to impose on the conversation but this canard is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If immigration were to be reduced to near zero the us population would actually fall like it’s doing in much of the western and Asian worlds. scary things occur when populations fall as we can see now in China and are starting to see in japan
> 
> I agree population control is the main thing you would do if you really wanted to control climate change. There are others but they are equally painful and unrealistic:
> -use European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)
> ...


I have been trying to figure out what grace meant by "European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)".  If that is a reference to tankless heaters, then the "not hot water on demand" characterization is just plain incorrect.  The delay to get hot water from a tankless heater is no longer than that from an old-fashioned garage bomb heater -- it depends only on the length of pipe from the heater to the tap.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Good question. Boston?


Yea..
Let's pay 30 billion plus or build ten reservoirs that would also create jobs and recreation in So Cal. 

As for "empty" reservoirs? It's called El Nino. Mother nature's way of dealing with the overcrowding of California. How much water have we already lost by not having enough storage? Even smaller localized reservoirs would help.


----------



## espola (May 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Yea..
> Let's pay 30 billion plus or build ten reservoirs that would also create jobs and recreation in So Cal.
> 
> As for "empty" reservoirs? It's called El Nino. Mother nature's way of dealing with the overcrowding of California. How much water have we already lost by not having enough storage? Even smaller localized reservoirs would help.


Good point, as long as you realize it is totally backward.  During El Nino years, rainfall (and snowfall) in most of California is above average, and the reservoirs we have now are more than adequate to supply our needs, even wasteful consumption such as watering of green lawns.  During dry years, any new reservoirs will sit empty.

This season started out looking promising, with near-record snowfalls in December.  The n -- nothing (although it did snow around Lake Tahoe this week).


----------



## whatithink (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> I have been trying to figure out what grace meant by "European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)".  If that is a reference to tankless heaters, then the "not hot water on demand" characterization is just plain incorrect.  The delay to get hot water from a tankless heater is no longer than that from an old-fashioned garage bomb heater -- it depends only on the length of pipe from the heater to the tap.


Probably something like this, which I remember from visiting the old sod ... no hot water on demand, and never leave it on.

Des Bishop Immersion Routine - YouTube


----------



## dad4 (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Good point, as long as you realize it is totally backward.  During El Nino years, rainfall (and snowfall) in most of California is above average, and the reservoirs we have now are more than adequate to supply our needs, even wasteful consumption such as watering of green lawns.  During dry years, any new reservoirs will sit empty.
> 
> This season started out looking promising, with near-record snowfalls in December.  The n -- nothing (although it did snow around Lake Tahoe this week).


I think his point is that added reservoir capacity would make it possible to store more el Nino water for use in dry years.  

No reason we can’t rip out the thirsty landscaping and build storage capacity.  They are both good ideas.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 10, 2022)

dad4 said:


> I think his point is that added reservoir capacity would make it possible to store more el Nino water for use in dry years.
> 
> No reason we can’t rip out the thirsty landscaping and build storage capacity.  They are both good ideas.


He just HAS to phrase his response in the form of an argument, has to.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Good point, as long as you realize it is totally backward.  During El Nino years, rainfall (and snowfall) in most of California is above average, and the reservoirs we have now are more than adequate to supply our needs, even wasteful consumption such as watering of green lawns.  During dry years, any new reservoirs will sit empty.
> 
> This season started out looking promising, with near-record snowfalls in December.  The n -- nothing (although it did snow around Lake Tahoe this week).


The amount of water lost because our current reservoirs are not capable of holding it is how much again?

Simple Math. Twenty reservoirs half full v ten reservoirs half full. What would do better supplying So Cal water?


----------



## espola (May 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The amount of water lost because our current reservoirs are not capable of holding it is how much again?
> 
> Simple Math. Twenty reservoirs half full v ten reservoirs half full. What would do better supplying So Cal water?


Where are you getting all this water from?


----------



## Grace T. (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> I have been trying to figure out what grace meant by "European style water heaters (no hot water on demand)".  If that is a reference to tankless heaters, then the "not hot water on demand" characterization is just plain incorrect.  The delay to get hot water from a tankless heater is no longer than that from an old-fashioned garage bomb heater -- it depends only on the length of pipe from the heater to the tap.


No.  In much of the poorer parts of Europe which haven't yet been converted to tankless, the way you get your shower water is it's dumped into a small tank which is heated prior to showering by gas.  You have to wait until the tank is heated to get a warm shower and once you are through with the tank you are done with the warm water.  It's actually a plot point in the film "The Kung Fu Kid".

Tankless water heaters are an improvement over the traditional western always hot tanks, and while an improvement in energy consumption, have several drawbacks over the older method from a climate change perspective: 1) there's no time limit on the shower, and therefore the energy consumption, 2) particularly if the temperature is set high, it takes a larger burst of power to keep the water warm (conceivably you can limit water temperatures and shower lengths thereby achieving the same results), and 3) it's generally electric which means the efficiencies are tied to where the electricity comes from (say for example nuclear power...if your grid is largely renewable based, it would be inconvenient for you to shower after work at the gym from 5-8)


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Where are you getting all this water from?


According to the LA Times....
35 million gallons of runoff and treated water from Glendale, Burbank and Los Angeles are dumped each day into the LA River and then runs into the Pacific...


----------



## espola (May 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> No.  In much of the poorer parts of Europe which haven't yet been converted to tankless, the way you get your shower water is it's dumped into a small tank which is heated prior to showering by gas.  You have to wait until the tank is heated to get a warm shower and once you are through with the tank you are done with the warm water.  It's actually a plot point in the film "The Kung Fu Kid".
> 
> Tankless water heaters are an improvement over the traditional western always hot tanks, and while an improvement in energy consumption, have several drawbacks over the older method from a climate change perspective: 1) there's no time limit on the shower, and therefore the energy consumption, 2) particularly if the temperature is set high, it takes a larger burst of power to keep the water warm (conceivably you can limit water temperatures and shower lengths thereby achieving the same results), and 3) it's generally electric which means the efficiencies are tied to where the electricity comes from (say for example nuclear power...if your grid is largely renewable based, it would be inconvenient for you to shower after work at the gym from 5-8)


Would you like to try again with coherent thoughts next time?


----------



## espola (May 10, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> According to the LA Times....
> 35 million gallons of runoff and treated water from Glendale, Burbank and Los Angeles are dumped each day into the LA River and then runs into the Pacific...


That sounds like a lot except when compared to the total consumption.  35 million gallons a day is about 7% of normal LA county consumption.  If that amount were fully reclaimed, no reservoirs would be needed since it would just be used as fast as it was supplied.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Where are you getting all this water from?


Between catching runoff, El Nino storms and winter storms in general. 

2018/19 and 19/20 we were seven inches over normal.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 10, 2022)

espola said:


> That sounds like a lot except when compared to the total consumption.  35 million gallons a day is about 7% of normal LA county consumption.  If that amount were fully reclaimed, no reservoirs would be needed since it would just be used as fast as it was supplied.


Decisions, decisions...
If it's gonna be reused it needs to be stored in a reservoir be it above ground or below ground or a combination thereof.
The state & the LA River watershed cities are gonna have to decide if that 35 million is gonna be recycled or if it's gonna be allowed to flow to the ocean and help restore the "natural hydrology" of the LA River...








						Could the L.A. River dry up? Fears grow as cities work to recycle more wastewater
					

As Los Angeles and other cities seek to recycle 100% of their treated sewage, some fear the L.A. River could dry up altogether.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## crush (May 11, 2022)




----------



## watfly (May 11, 2022)

You guys need to get your priorities straight and fight for what's really important.









						Succession's James Cromwell SUPERGLUES himself to Starbucks counter
					

Academy Award nominated actor James Cromwell,82, was captured superglued to a Starbucks counter in protest of the coffee company up charging vegan milk.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Desert Hound (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> You guys need to get your priorities straight and fight for what's really important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the word up charging. 

As if soy milk and other vegan "milks" will cost the same as regular milk. 

I want to drink a specialty product and why should I pay more for that?

I think that is the gist of this whiner.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 11, 2022)

Protesters outside Brett M. Kavanaugh’s house warned the Supreme Court justice this weekend, “If you take away our choices, we will riot.” They marched on Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr.’s home chanting “Abort the court!” and stood outside the home of Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. (who apparently did not vote to overturn _Roe v. Wade_) yelling “The whole world is watching!”

This is not just noxious behavior; it is illegal. Federal law — Section 1507 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code — clearly states that it is unlawful to protest near a “residence occupied or used by [a] judge, juror, witness, or court officer” with the intent of influencing “the discharge of his duty,” adding that anyone who “uses any sound-truck or similar device or resorts to any other demonstration in or near any such building or residence, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”

The reason is simple: It is obstruction of justice. Just as it is against the law to tamper with witnesses or jurors by intimidating them or their family, it’s unlawful to tamper with a Supreme Court justice by coming to their home to threaten, harass or coerce them to influence their vote in a case before the court.

So, what is the Biden administration doing about it? This is a federal statute, so it’s Attorney General Merrick Garland’s responsibility to enforce it. When the National School Boards Association wrote to President Biden complaining about angry parents showing up at school board meetings, Garland immediately issued a memorandum to the director of the FBI ordering him to “convene meetings … in each federal judicial district” to discuss “strategies for addressing threats” made by parents. The Justice Department further announced Garland would form “a task force, consisting of representatives from the department’s … National Security Division” — created by the Patriot Act to investigate terrorists — to “determine how federal enforcement tools can be used to prosecute these crimes.”

Garland declared at the time, “Threats against public servants are not only illegal, they run counter to our nation’s core values.” I’m sorry, are Supreme Court justices not public servants? Does attempting to intimidate them not run counter to our nation’s core values? In the case of the school boards association, not one of the incidents they cited involved a violation of federal law, yet Garland swung into action. But the harassment of justices at their homes does violate federal law and what is Garland doing? Despite multiple inquiries, Justice Department spokesman Anthony Coley refused to explain what steps Garland was taking to protect justices or enforce the law.

Garland’s failure to act is an appalling dereliction of duty. So is Biden’s failure to condemn the protests. During his victory speech after the election, Biden declared that it was time “stop treating our opponents as our enemy.” In his inaugural address, he promised to “end this uncivil war” and put “my whole soul” into “bringing America together.”

Not only has he failed to fulfill that promise, he has modeled the bad behavior these protesters are now emulating. When Republicans blocked his partisan election law, Biden accused them of standing with racists and traitors, and called them “enemies” of America, thundering, “I will defend the right to vote, our democracy against all enemies — foreign and, yes, domestic.” That sent a signal that our fellow Americans who disagree with us are in fact “enemies” and can be treated as such. When someone is your enemy, then there is nothing to stop you from showing up at their house to threaten and intimidate them.

Asked last Friday about the group calling itself “Ruth Sent Us,” which published the locations of the justices’ homes on its website, White House press secretary Jen Psaki refused to condemn the doxing. “We want people to protest peacefully if they want to,” she said, adding that she didn’t have “an official U.S. government position on where people protest.”

There is in fact an “official U.S. government position on where people protest” — it’s 18 U.S.C. 1507. After someone firebombed a pro-life group’s offices in Wisconsin on Sunday, Psaki belatedly tweeted that the Biden “strongly believes in the Constitutional right to protest. But that should never include violence, threats, or vandalism.” It took someone throwing a Molotov cocktail at pro-lifers to elicit even that mild criticism. What will it take to get the president to order his attorney general to enforce federal law barring harassment of the justices and their families in their homes?

Last year, when left-wing protesters followed Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) into a bathroom, filming as they yelled at her over her opposition to Biden’s Build Back Better legislation, the president dismissed her harassment, declaring it was “part of the process.” It’s not. It’s appalling behavior. But it’s not illegal. Well, harassing Supreme Court justices in their homes is against the law. It’s time for Biden to enforce that law before someone gets hurt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/10/abortion-protest-supreme-court-justice-homes-brett-kavanaugh-samuel-alito-john-roberts-illegal/


----------



## crush (May 11, 2022)

*Old deal – JB “If you don’t fire the Prosecutor, you will not get the billion dollars.”
New deal – Zelenskyy: “If I don’t get 40 billion dollars, the Prosecutor talks.”*


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 11, 2022)




----------



## dad4 (May 11, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Protesters outside Brett M. Kavanaugh’s house warned the Supreme Court justice this weekend, “If you take away our choices, we will riot.” They marched on Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr.’s home chanting “Abort the court!” and stood outside the home of Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. (who apparently did not vote to overturn _Roe v. Wade_) yelling “The whole world is watching!”
> 
> This is not just noxious behavior; it is illegal. Federal law — Section 1507 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code — clearly states that it is unlawful to protest near a “residence occupied or used by [a] judge, juror, witness, or court officer” with the intent of influencing “the discharge of his duty,” adding that anyone who “uses any sound-truck or similar device or resorts to any other demonstration in or near any such building or residence, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”
> 
> ...


While you rightly condemn the violent attack on a pro-life office in Wisconsin, don’t forget to condemn the recent arson at an abortion clinic in Knoxville.  

Or the gun attack at the same clinic 11 months before.
Or the roughly annual molotov and gun attacks at abortion clinics in the US.
Or the daily efforts to block access to abortion clinics across the country.

Pro choice radicals attempting arson is despicable.  It is also a tiny sliver of the violence surrounding abortion rights in the US.


----------



## watfly (May 11, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


>


When he's this far underwater what does he have to lose by making shit up?  It's his best, and likely only, strategy right now...blame and obfuscate.



dad4 said:


> While you rightly condemn the violent attack on a pro-life office in Wisconsin, don’t forget to condemn the recent arson at an abortion clinic in Knoxville.
> 
> Or the gun attack at the same clinic 11 months before.
> Or the roughly annual molotov and gun attacks at abortion clinics in the US.
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but those people are being pursued for prosecution.  Those that are trying to obstruct justice outside the judges homes are actually being encouraged by the Biden administration.  Huge difference.

The proper place for them to protest is in front of the Supreme Court.  I have no problem with that, but in front of their homes crosses a line both ethically and legally.  I said the same when anti-maskers protested at the home of the OC Health Director.


----------



## thirteenknots (May 11, 2022)

espola said:


> Pipeline from where?


An "interstate water system" could fix the West's water woes - Big Think






espola said:


> Where are you getting all this water from?








espola said:


> As I already posted, more empty reservoirs do not solve the problem.


They are only empty due to the " Politics " of The Greasy One you helped
beat/cheat a recall.


----------



## watfly (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> You guys need to get your priorities straight and fight for what's really important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More priorities.









						Sen. Josh Hawley wants to strip Disney of copyright to Mickey Mouse
					

Sen. Josh Hawley launched an attack on Disney's copyright protection for Mickey Mouse, unveiling a bill on Tuesday that would strip it of its control of the iconic cartoon rodent.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## dad4 (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> More priorities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t like the reason for Hawley’s attention, but I wouldn’t shed a tear for an end to copyright abuse.  The constitution clearly says patents and copyrights are temporary.  It’s long past time for early movie copyrights to expire.


----------



## watfly (May 11, 2022)

dad4 said:


> I don’t like the reason for Hawley’s attention, but I wouldn’t shed a tear for an end to copyright abuse.  The constitution clearly says patents and copyrights are temporary.  It’s long past time for early movie copyrights to expire.


My buddy is a licensed Disney painter so I wouldn't be in favor of ending the copyright.


----------



## NorCalDad (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> My buddy is a licensed Disney painter so I wouldn't be in favor of ending the copyright.


That's like cab driver medallions. 

How do you go about getting licensed for that?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> More priorities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTH?


----------



## watfly (May 11, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> That's like cab driver medallions.
> 
> How do you go about getting licensed for that?


Not remotely close to cab driver medallions.  I've asked how he got it, but my memory fails me.  Not easy as I recall, definitely a license to print money.  Disney people are nutty and apparently many are very wealthy.  He does stuff other than Disney and I occasionally see his Einstein print sold in various stores.


----------



## crush (May 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> Not remotely close to cab driver medallions.  I've asked how he got it, but my memory fails me.  Not easy as I recall, definitely a license to print money.  Disney people are nutty and apparently many are very wealthy.  He does stuff other than Disney and I occasionally see his Einstein print sold in various stores.


My adopted mom's first husband was very, very good pals with Walt.


----------



## crush (May 11, 2022)




----------



## thirteenknots (May 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> WTH?



Disney needs to just go away...

Too bad if the result limits your scope.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 12, 2022)

Our poor President. Bless his little heart. 
He's apparently got someone living in his mind rent free...

1st day in office Joe signs an executive order regarding oil leases that are viewed as hostile toward the oil and gas industry.
Resulting in higher gas prices.
Joe overruled Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who advised him to slow the military withdrawal in Afghanistan.
Resulting military personnel loses and the abandoning of billions of dollars in equipment, weapons and ammunition.
Joe has allowed 2,000,000 people to illegally enter the US, yet claims the border is closed.
Resulting in record amounts of drugs including enough fentanyl to kill every man, women & child in the US.
Joe has called inflation temporary, transitory, does nothing about it and brags about reducing the deficit.
Resulting in near record inflation...

Joe's reaction is to blame "Ultra MAGA" ???
I hope none of y'all have a need for infant formula. If you do, blame Ultra MAGA's


----------



## crush (May 12, 2022)

"Gotta blame it on the Trumper."


----------



## thirteenknots (May 12, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Our poor President. Bless his little heart.
> He's apparently got someone living in his mind rent free...
> 
> 1st day in office Joe signs an executive order regarding oil leases that are viewed as hostile toward the oil and gas industry.
> ...



Poke, Poke, Poke......this administration wants a " Fight " with anyone. Everyone
with a functioning brain can see these snot nosed political punks are trying to
pick a fight, they will get it and regret it.

This is not going to end well for all of America, sad to say this but it's true.

This summer is lining up to be one F'd up mess that " We The People " are
going to have to settle. 

Now que up the two snot nosed Democrat Trolls on this forum:

Husker Du the punk/liar
and his side kick
Adam Espola Schiff the serial Liar
for a response ( If they have the Cajones )


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 12, 2022)

*Biden Administration Cancels Drilling  Sales in Alaska and Gulf of Mexico*

This should go along way in bringing gas prices under control at new record highs by the end of the day...
Those f'n Ultra MAGA's  !!!


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 12, 2022)

Today in the Ultra MAGA Washindton Post:


Inflation is one of the biggest challenges President Biden faces. Americans of all political persuasions are angry about it. They see it as gas and diesel prices hit record highs. They see it at the grocery store. They see it when they buy just about anything, from couches to cars. And they see it in soaring home and rent prices in formerly affordable neighborhoods. While inflation might have peaked in March, it is set to remain painfully high for months to come. Families understand the math: Wages rose an average of 5.5 percent in the past year, while prices surged 8.3 percent. 

On Tuesday, Mr. Biden gave his most forceful remarks yet on inflation, telling the nation he was taking it “very seriously” and considered it “my top domestic priority.” He should have said this months ago. The White House has been suffering from magical thinking on inflation, and, sadly, that continues.

For much of last year, the Biden administration wrongly told the American public that rising prices would be short-lived. When it became clear that inflation would not come down on its own, the White House began a blame game. One of its favorite talking points is to pin inflation on greedy corporations for hiking prices too much. That just doesn’t add up. Corporations did not become far more greedy in the past few months. What’s really going on is basic economics: There’s high demand for a lot of stuff and inadequate supply because of the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, China’s lockdown, crushed supply chains and not enough workers. That’s a classic recipe for higher prices.

Mr. Biden also spent much of his inflation speech berating Republicans for hyping up the inflation problems and failing to deliver remedies. He especially went after Sen. Rick Scott of Florida, who did put out a terrible tax plan. But this isn’t what Americans want to hear. While the White House looks for culprits to blame for inflation, it has struggled to articulate any sort of plan. 

The Federal Reserve has properly taken the lead on tackling inflation. The central bank is aggressively raising interest rates, which should cool off demand for homes, cars and more. Meanwhile, Mr. Biden and his fellow Democrats should be focused on things they can do on the supply side: how to fix supply chains and get more workers into the economy. 

The White House has made small attempts. It released a record amount of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to help alleviate costs at the pump, and officials have finally announced some efforts to try to tackle the massive backlog of legal immigrants waiting for authorization to work. But it was disappointing that Mr. Biden made no mention in his speech of bringing aboard more legal immigrant workers, lowering or eliminating Donald Trump’s tariffs, or making additional efforts to fix supply chain holdups. When a reporter pressed Mr. Biden on tariffs, he said, “We’re discussing that right now.” 

It’s wishful thinking that inflation is going to come down much by Election Day. To show voters he is on top of the problem, Mr. Biden needs to do more than blame someone else for high prices. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/11/inflation-biden-wishful-thinking/


----------



## crush (May 12, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> Poke, Poke, Poke......this administration wants a " Fight " with anyone. Everyone
> with a functioning brain can see these snot nosed political punks are trying to
> pick a fight, they will get it and regret it.
> 
> ...


Gerneral Lightfoot has called for arms and the time to fight is now.  Desperate people do desperate things when caught in biggest heist ever.  The Military is the only option.


----------



## espola (May 12, 2022)

espola said:


> How about an underwater pipeline down the coast starting in the Columbia River?


Or the Klamath River?


----------



## crush (May 13, 2022)

King Cyrus.  Thanks Joe for giving t even a bigger head.  TGIFF!!!


----------



## crush (May 13, 2022)

*King Cyrus.  TDS is a real problem in our country. *


----------



## Multi Sport (May 13, 2022)

espola said:


> Or the Klamath River?


Old news... Vinci proposed something like this back in 15'.


----------



## crush (May 13, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (May 13, 2022)

The Crypto Crash Is Just the Start
					

Is the U.S. destined to have a recession in 2022?




					www.theatlantic.com
				




Again.Thanks Joe..


----------



## dad4 (May 13, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Old news... Vinci proposed something like this back in 15'.


Sort of.  DaVinci's plan was to divert a river during wartime, to deprive the city of water and force them to surrender.

To complete the analogy, you're suggesting NorCal radicals sabotage the California Aqueduct pumps and finally bring LA to heel.  We would, but we just can't bear the thought of that much bad karma.


----------



## espola (May 13, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Sort of.  DaVinci's plan was to divert a river during wartime, to deprive the city of water and force them to surrender.
> 
> To complete the analogy, you're suggesting NorCal radicals sabotage the California Aqueduct pumps and finally bring LA to heel.  We would, but we just can't bear the thought of that much bad karma.


Is that what that meant?  "Vinci ... back in 15' " is just gibberish to me.

The plan in the video does not steal anyone's water.  The proposal is to capture flood flows during the wet seasons down near the rivers' ocean outlets and send it by a large plastic pipe to the Sacramento Delta, where it would contribute to the flow into the California Aqueduct.  But in order to understand that, one would have had to have watched most of the video.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 14, 2022)

Amazon Executive Chairman Jeff Bezos went after President Joe Biden on Friday over the latter's tweet about bringing down inflation by taxing large corporations.

"You want to bring down inflation? Let's make sure the wealthiest corporations pay their fair share," Biden said in a tweet Friday evening.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 14, 2022)

espola said:


> Is that what that meant?  "Vinci ... back in 15' " is just gibberish to me.
> 
> The plan in the video does not steal anyone's water.  The proposal is to capture flood flows during the wet seasons down near the rivers' ocean outlets and send it by a large plastic pipe to the Sacramento Delta, where it would contribute to the flow into the California Aqueduct.  But in order to understand that, one would have had to have watched most of the video.


Educate yourself before you look like the fool you are. And do us all a favor.. take Sunshine with you.






						VINCI is a world leader in concessions, energy and construction, active in nearly 120 countries. [VINCI]
					

Our ambition, in response to the climate emergency, is to accelerate the transformation of living environments, infrastructure and mobility. We also aim to foster social progress by being a humanist group that exemplifies inclusion and solidarity.




					www.vinci.com


----------



## espola (May 14, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Educate yourself before you look like the fool you are. And do us all a favor.. take Sunshine with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Old news.  The Bureau of Reclamation proposed something similar in 1975 --



			https://www.usbr.gov/tsc/techreferences/hydraulics_lab/pubs/PAP/PAP-0309.pdf
		




			Catalog Record: California undersea aqueduct reconnaissance investigation


----------



## Multi Sport (May 14, 2022)

espola said:


> Old news.  The Bureau of Reclamation proposed something similar in 1975 --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Similar is the key word. 

You fail again..

Please continue..

Coocoo..


----------



## espola (May 14, 2022)

espola said:


> Old news.  The Bureau of Reclamation proposed something similar in 1975 --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the problems with scanned documents is that someone has to remember to unfold large illustrations, such as this map:


----------



## Desert Hound (May 14, 2022)

California panel unanimously rejects proposal for plant to turn ocean water into drinking water
					

California officials struck down a $1.4 billion plan to build a seaside desalination plant amid a water crisis sparked by megadrought and climate change.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## tenacious (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The Crypto Crash Is Just the Start
> 
> 
> Is the U.S. destined to have a recession in 2022?
> ...


If truth matters, having been listening to the talking heads on cnbc for the past year I know its fair to say the Biden admin took a lot of heat for warning mutual fund managers of consequences if they dared invested pension money into crypto. So I don't follow your post? At least to my humble opinion the crypto fallout has been contained to crypto investors; and we know that because it hasn't dragged down the broader market, like happened with the real estate bubble and the dot.com bubbles. We can argue the politics of it, but if you're going to allow folks to make risky investments that have hight levels of risk... in a weird way this crash seems as good an outcome as is reasonable to expect? 

As a capitalist, I look at how Biden admin played this one and it strikes me as an example of regulation that I like.


----------



## tenacious (May 16, 2022)

The thing with Biden is for every good choice he makes there seems to be a bad choice. So in theory the logical left side of my brain thinks maybe he's not that bad. But then I remember Kamala and how he and dems spent a bigger percentage of the GDP fighting COVID than was spent on WW2... and the right side of my brain cringes as I imagine what can go wrong.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/15/biden-democrats-financial-regulation-positions-influence/


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

tenacious said:


> If truth matters, having been listening to the talking heads on cnbc for the past year I know its fair to say the Biden admin took a lot of heat for warning mutual fund managers of consequences if they dared invested pension money into crypto. So I don't follow your post? At least to my humble opinion the crypto fallout has been contained to crypto investors; and we know that because it hasn't dragged down the broader market, like happened with the real estate bubble and the dot.com bubbles. We can argue the politics of it, but if you're going to allow folks to make risky investments that have hight levels of risk... in a weird way this crash seems as good an outcome as is reasonable to expect?
> 
> As a capitalist, I look at how Biden admin played this one and it strikes me as an example of regulation that I like.


The article explains the crypto crash is just one of nine signs that are worrisome for the overall economy... 

As far as high risk investing/returns. There are now crypto backed IRAs but I prefer to deal with the CCs that I believe in. 

But what defines a high risk anyway? Is a 401k risky? Or how about a Roth IRA? Crypto? Does earning .05% represent being overly conservative?

And what about the other eight signs that the article points out? Are those things the current administration will be able to address in two years?


----------



## espola (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The article explains the crypto crash is just one of nine signs that are worrisome for the overall economy...
> 
> As far as high risk investing/returns. There are now crypto backed IRAs but I prefer to deal with the CCs that I believe in.
> 
> ...


Which CCs do you believe in?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Which CCs do you believe in?


One's that allow you to earn while you wait.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Which CCs do you believe in?


One's that have real world case usage.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> Which CCs do you believe in?


One's that have a team working on them with a proven track record.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Thanks to artificial intelligence, it is feasible to evaluate data in a manner that wasn't conceivable. Statistical analysis and performance optimization based on data are also part of this process. In today's ultra-competitive environment, a company needs the most up-to-date technologies to have the most possibilities and the best decision-making ability possible. In many countries, soccer is more than just a sport since it creates a trip of emotions for its enthusiasts.



Applications for evaluating athletic performance make use of AI capabilities and methodologies. These tools may automatically analyze playing strategy to provide real-time, exact feedback that can help players improve their performance and decision-making.



Biomechanics sensors are used to create 3D representations of athletes' movements. A visual representation of game data reveals how players perform rather than how they rank. It is common practice to utilize traditional sports analytics to offer information such as shots taken or compare players' performance and statistics. Still, the application of deep learning algorithms breaks down athletes' decision-making capabilities. With it, coaches and teams have a real-time tool for evaluating defensive athletes' performance in any game setting.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Let's see if the self proclaimed CRYPTOGRAPHER can figure out my cryptic post.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Let's see if the self proclaimed CRYPTOGRAPHER can figure out my cryptic post.


You’re still running off things E never claimed? Typical.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re still running off things E never claimed? Typical.


----------



## espola (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re still running off things E never claimed? Typical.


I am certainly not at the level of the NSA cryptographers, but I think I could have an interesting conversation with one of them.  I recently finished the book In the Enemy's House which lays out how in the early days of the NSA a cryptologist who spent all of his time for years was able to crack the Rosenberg spy ring that sent atomic bomb secrets to the Soviets.  The Soviet weakness according to the book was reusing one-time pads, a basic cryptologic failure.  The secret that we could decrypt some Soviet messages was so tightly held that it was not disclosed for over 50 years.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re still running off things E never claimed? Typical.


Try to keep up otherwise you'll just end up embarrassing yourself like you just did. 

Oh..and go talk to your BFF before you post again.

Lol!!!!


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I am certainly not at the level of the NSA cryptographers, but I think I could have an interesting conversation with one of them.  I recently finished the book In the Enemy's House which lays out how in the early days of the NSA a cryptologist who spent all of his time for years was able to crack the Rosenberg spy ring that sent


Still can't figure it out?

Digital Twin.


----------



## espola (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> One's that have a team working on them with a proven track record.


I don't believe you have any CC investments, since if you did you would be pumping them up here.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re still running off things E never claimed? Typical.


And you're obviously still drunk...


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I don't believe you have any CC investments, since if you did you would be pumping them up here.


Keep trying. It makes you look desperate. A look that you wear well. 

And what's pumping? Is that something you do at a well?


----------



## espola (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Keep trying. It makes you look desperate. A look that you wear well.
> 
> And what's pumping? Is that something you do at a well?


q.e.d.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


You're stumped. You have no idea. Aka..You're clueless like I said you were.

But that's old news.

Please continue...


----------



## crush (May 16, 2022)

Checking in from beautiful Mt. Shasta.  We needed a break from the system we were all born into.  The Lunar Eclipse was amazing last night.  The signs in Sac Town and the Central Valley off 5 fwry were 100% pissed off at Newsome and the water droght.  Everything is dry and everyone is not happy.  Sad coming up through LA.  
RIP to those who were shot over the weekend.  I live a few blocks from church shooting.  Stay safe everyone.  We will get through this together.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


What's wrong? Google is failing you?

Maybe you need a little more salt on your hash...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 16, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> What's wrong? Google is failing you?
> 
> Maybe you need a little more salt on your hash...


You seem to get off on being whiny, rude and belligerent. On that you are consistent.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You seem to get off on being whiny, rude and belligerent. On that you are consistent.


You seem to get off on being sexist and wrong all the time. On that you are consistent.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You seem to get off on being whiny, rude and belligerent. On that you are consistent.


And if your BFF is worth his salt as a self proclaimed Cryptographer he would know exactly what my post meant.

You, on the other hand, are about as worthless as they come. You really should find some help.. I mean besides your BFF E.

Good day Sunshine... You're free to entertain me.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 17, 2022)

Gotta love JB. He thinks he's doing a great job..

"Motorists are facing a new — and unwelcome — milestone: The price of gasoline is now at least $4 per gallon in every U.S. state, a first for the nation, according to AAA. 

The average per-gallon price reached a new record of $4.52 on Tuesday, the automobile group said. 

Drivers in California are facing the biggest hit, with prices in the Golden State reaching a new record of $6.02 per gallon, AAA said. The surge in gas prices is contributing to the highest inflation in four decades, and taking a bite out of consumers' wallets. "


----------



## crush (May 17, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Gotta love JB. He thinks he's doing a great job..
> 
> "Motorists are facing a new — and unwelcome — milestone: The price of gasoline is now at least $4 per gallon in every U.S. state, a first for the nation, according to AAA.
> 
> ...


I saw $7 bri and its only climbing.  I have met some great people who own RVs.  A lot of them are in tight spots because of Diesal price increase and inflation.  Buying things now is like the movie prices for candy.  They retired when gas was $1.80 in most places. One guy said their now going to park the RV and wait this out in Idaho.  Its way too expensive. Another guy lives in a really cool van that he converted into a bed and he will never go back to city life.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 17, 2022)

The ACLJ filed a lawsuit against Biden's IRS after they ignored our Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request demanding all records pertaining to a decision to deny Christians Engaged, our client, tax-exempt status. The IRS tried to make our lawsuit disappear by filing a Motion to Dismiss and the court just rejected the IRS's motion.


----------



## whatithink (May 17, 2022)

watfly said:


> Just out of curiosity who do you think is going to push for a ban of contraceptives?  I don't even think given an opportunity to do so the Catholics or other anti-contraceptive religious groups are going to challenge it.  The Catholics have only fought against their hospitals being forced to pay for contraceptives.  I don't get any sense they care about what non-Catholics do in the privacy of their own home.  Hell, I'd bet that even Matt Gaetz used a condom with the teenage girl.
> 
> Have any of the justices ever questioned contraceptives?  Whose is this contraceptive bogeyman?


Its beginning, apparently, nutjobs - keep in mind that Roe relied on Griswold which relied on the right to privacy.

And there's always the 9th amendment obviously - wrt rights.

_Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves__ refused to rule out the possibility that his state would ban certain forms of contraception. He avoided questions about what would happen next if Roe v. Wade is overturned; telling CNN’s Jake Tapper that limiting access to contraceptives isn’t what Mississippi policymakers are focused on "at this time."

Rep. Brent Crane of Idaho confirmed he would hold hearings to consider banning IUDs and the contraceptive pill Plan B.

Sen. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee recently denounced Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 case that struck down a state law that restricted married couples’ access to birth control. And each of the Republican candidates running for state attorney general in Michigan also denounced the Griswold precedent.

Republican legislators in Louisiana are working on an abortion ban that would "arguably criminalize in vitro fertilization and forms of birth control."_


----------



## crush (May 17, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Its beginning, apparently, nutjobs - keep in mind that Roe relied on Griswold which relied on the right to privacy.
> 
> And there's always the 9th amendment obviously - wrt rights.
> 
> ...


I was watching some young ladies on the news screaming that it's better to be aborted then end up in Foster Care.  I was shocked but not surprised.  I was so glad I was born into Foster Care.  Thank you to all the great spiritual men & women that saved me so I too could get a chance to kick ass and have the eye of the tiger.  I went to Castle Lake today and it was freaking amazing time.  I jumped into some cold water to cleanse my past and wash all my fear a way.


----------



## watfly (May 17, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Its beginning, apparently, nutjobs - keep in mind that Roe relied on Griswold which relied on the right to privacy.
> 
> And there's always the 9th amendment obviously - wrt rights.
> 
> ...


While I find this disturbing that anyone would consider any of this, I still stand by my point that there isn't any critical mass to ban contraceptives and the Supreme Court hasn't opened the door to do so.  Contraception doesn't involve a third party like aborting a child does.  Just a side note about IVF, the Catholic Church considers it "gravely immoral".  Ironic isn't it?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 17, 2022)

With all the talk about fake news..

"At least half of President Biden’s 22.2 million Twitter followers are bogus, a new audit revealed.

The audit, which was done for the social media giant by software firm SparkToro, found that 49.3% of the president’s followers are “fake followers,” according to Newsweek.

SparkToro has defined “fake followers” as “accounts that are unreachable and will not see the account’s tweets (either because they’re spam, bots, propaganda, etc. or because they’re no longer active on Twitter).”


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 18, 2022)

watfly said:


> While I find this disturbing that anyone would consider any of this, I still stand by my point that there isn't any critical mass to ban contraceptives and the Supreme Court hasn't opened the door to do so.  Contraception doesn't involve a third party like aborting a child does.  Just a side note about IVF, the Catholic Church considers it "gravely immoral".  Ironic isn't it?


Do Catholic priest only molest boys? Maybe with all these personal restrictions more young people will want to be gay, won’t get pregnant that way.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 18, 2022)

*Tax Increases Won’t Cure Inflation*
*Another bright idea from the folks who brought you Modern Monetary Theory.*

The same policy wizards who brought you soaring inflation are now offering what they claim is a solution to inflation: Raise taxes. Our advice is to consider the source and the economic record their previous advice produced.









						Opinion | Tax Increases Won’t Cure Inflation
					

Another bright idea from the folks who brought you Modern Monetary Theory.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Do Catholic priest only molest boys? Maybe with all these personal restrictions more young people will want to be gay, won’t get pregnant that way.
> View attachment 13580


One more example where you should've remained silent and thought a moron...


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

As I was listening to the radio talking heads say that gas is expected to hit $6.25 in LA around Memorial weekend I couldn't help but think about all the families traveling to Soccer tournaments.  Glad we're not doing that anymore... 

The highest gas I passed today was only $6.19. Thanks Joe..


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> One more example where you should've remained silent and thought a moron...


At some point it's no longer fun to point out the obvious with Ratboy. He makes it too easy... almost like he's teeing himself up.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 18, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> At some point it's no longer fun to point out the obvious with Ratboy. He makes it too easy... almost like he's teeing himself up.


I ignore the vast majority of his nonsense...apparently his strength is his ability to tee himself up.
Daffy would be a great WH Press Secretary....


----------



## Desert Hound (May 18, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> As I was listening to the radio talking heads say that gas is expected to hit $6.25 in LA around Memorial weekend I couldn't help but think about all the families traveling to Soccer tournaments.  Glad we're not doing that anymore...
> 
> The highest gas I passed today was only $6.19. Thanks Joe..


----------



## Desert Hound (May 18, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I ignore the vast majority of his nonsense...apparently his strength is his ability to tee himself up.
> Daffy would be a great WH Press Secretary....


He is spoon fed his daily talking points from leftist outfits and then turns around and spews them on this forum thinking they provide some great insight.


----------



## Desert Hound (May 18, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Gotta love JB. He thinks he's doing a great job..
> 
> "Motorists are facing a new — and unwelcome — milestone: The price of gasoline is now at least $4 per gallon in every U.S. state, a first for the nation, according to AAA.
> 
> ...


This article talks about gas and mainly diesel.

Talks about refining capacity as well. 





__





						Green Delusions Bring Chaos And Death «  Lawrence Person's BattleSwarm Blog
					





					www.battleswarmblog.com


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

Bu bye..









						Biden puts disinfo ‘Mary Poppins’ on ice, scraps Orwellian DHS board
					

The Homeland Security board was set to be led by director Nina Jankowicz and had a mandate to fight the spread of “disinformation.”




					nypost.com


----------



## watfly (May 18, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Bu bye..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im more insulted that they thought the public was so stupid that we'd quietly accept a Ministry of Truth particularly one run by a blind, childish partisan.  When your policies are a unmitigated disaster you have to resort to lying, silencing, obfuscating, dividing and blaming.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> This article talks about gas and mainly diesel.
> 
> Talks about refining capacity as well.
> 
> ...


Tractors/ Earth movers use up so much fuel/diesel.  I would think this would be an area that electric vehicles would be most beneficial.  Of course the battery array would be massive.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

Not paying attention seems to be the norm with this administration...









						White House Isn't Paying Attention to Americans Getting Their Retirement Plans Wiped Out
					






					townhall.com


----------



## Desert Hound (May 18, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Tractors/ Earth movers use up so much fuel/diesel.  I would think this would be an area that electric vehicles would be most beneficial.  Of course the battery array would be massive.


Creating batteries is an incredibly dirty exercise in terms of how they mine it. 

Combine that with the fact that almost all the materials used for batteries come from China.....


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 18, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Creating batteries is an incredibly dirty exercise in terms of how they mine it.
> 
> Combine that with the fact that almost all the materials used for batteries come from China.....


Google Salton Sea Lithium...
It would be a good thing if this is doable.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

A nasty little virus...










						1st monkeypox case in US this year reported in Massachusetts
					

A Massachusetts resident has tested positive for monkeypox, the state health department confirmed Wednesday.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Multi Sport (May 18, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Google Salton Sea Lithium...
> It would be a good thing if this is doable.


I had no idea. Very interesting article. I've done some work out there and it's only a place I'd like to pass through. 

As with any type of mining I'd imagine a large scar would be the result..
Just wished that there was a better to extract the lithium then current mining practices. Or at the least, be able to do something with the inevitable scar left behind.









						As Lithium Drilling Advances at the Salton Sea, Researchers Work Out the Details
					

Companies progress towards commercial lithium drilling at the Salton Sea, while teams of researchers explore questions about effective extraction methods and environmental impacts.




					www.kcet.org
				



.


----------



## tenacious (May 19, 2022)

I thought this was interesting. Although if scientists unlock fusion as an energy source I suppose we will have to keep mining for lithium.  









						The Door to Fusion Energy Might Have Just Been Unlocked
					

dani3315In the world of renewable energy, there’s perhaps no more ambitious goal than fusion power. This involves fusing hydrogen atoms to create helium—a process that generates an incredible amount of energy. It’s a reaction that occurs every single moment in the sun, but replicating it on...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 19, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I had no idea. Very interesting article. I've done some work out there and it's only a place I'd like to pass through.
> 
> As with any type of mining I'd imagine a large scar would be the result..
> Just wished that there was a better to extract the lithium then current mining practices. Or at the least, be able to do something with the inevitable scar left behind.
> ...


Scar?
Read on...

About 40 miles north of the California-Mexico border lies the shrinking, landlocked lake known as the Salton Sea. Though the lake was once the epicenter of a thriving resort community, water contamination and decades of drought have contributed to a collapse of its once-vibrant ecosystem and given rise to ghost towns.

But amid this environmental disaster, the California Energy Commission estimates that there’s enough lithium here to meet all of the United States’ projected future demand and 40% of the world’s demand. That’s big news for the booming electric-vehicle industry, as lithium is the common denominator across all types of EV batteries.

*Traditionally, lithium extraction involves either open-pit mining or evaporation ponds, which work by pumping lithium-containing brine to the surface and waiting for the water to dry up. Both of these methods have huge land footprints, are often very water intensive and can create a lot of contamination and waste.

But at the Salton Sea, three companies are developing chemical processes to extract lithium in a much cleaner way, taking advantage of the Salton Sea’s rich geothermal resources. Near the lake, there are already 11 operating geothermal power plants, 10 of which are owned by Berkshire Hathaway’s renewable energy division, BHE Renewables.*

“We are already pumping 50,000 gallons of brine per minute across all of our 10 geothermal facilities to the surface,” said Alicia Knapp, president and CEO of BHE Renewables, “and we’re using the steam from that brine to generate clean energy. So we’re really halfway there in that we’ve got the lithium right here in our hands.”






Controlled Thermal Resources is building a combined geothermal power plant and lithium extraction facility, which will provide 20,000 tons of lithium to GM.









						The Salton Sea could produce the world's greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work
					

Amid the shrinking, toxic Salton Sea, there's enough lithium to meet the United States' entire projected demand and fuel the electric-vehicle revolution.




					www.cnbc.com
				





​





CCPA Notice​​


----------



## thirteenknots (May 19, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Creating batteries is an incredibly dirty exercise in terms of how they mine it.
> 
> Combine that with the fact that almost all the materials used for batteries come from China.....



That is a very COMMON misconception, CHINA has been securing/STEALING
mineral rights in South American Countries to exploit and monopolize the
materials used in manufacturing of the EV Vehicles.

China is now the dirtbag of the globe when it comes to coercing/stealing rare
earth materials, they " Loan " their manipulated currency to impoverished or
financially strapped Countries that have the resources they want. Then they
manipulate or flat out steal the resources they need from the " Host " Country.

Example below.
Look at the financial history of the South American Countries that have these resources.


*South America*
Much of the lithium used for electric car batteries comes from* South America*, specifically
in the Andes Mountains that run through Chile, Argentina and Bolivia. There are also
deposits in China and the U.S. which are mined from rock. The lithium material is made into
lithium carbonate and then processed at a battery plant.


----------



## thirteenknots (May 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Scar?
> Read on...
> 
> About 40 miles north of the California-Mexico border lies the shrinking, landlocked lake known as the Salton Sea. Though the lake was once the epicenter of a thriving resort community, water contamination and decades of drought have contributed to a collapse of its once-vibrant ecosystem and given rise to ghost towns.
> ...




Just think if they combined the above stated process in conjunction with
a DeSal Plant or two that used gravity to fill the Salton Sea after it was
initially pumped up from the ocean over the higher terrain to the east of the
San Diego region and left to flow the distance to the Salton Sea region.

Running the process off of reclaimed energy from the geothermal initial plus
a further benefit from Hydro flow to the Salton Sea region.


----------



## espola (May 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Scar?
> Read on...
> 
> About 40 miles north of the California-Mexico border lies the shrinking, landlocked lake known as the Salton Sea. Though the lake was once the epicenter of a thriving resort community, water contamination and decades of drought have contributed to a collapse of its once-vibrant ecosystem and given rise to ghost towns.
> ...


The Salton Sea lithium deposits can be extracted from the same boreholes that power the geothermal plants.  As a side benefit, theprofits from the lithium sales can tip the scales a little in favor of building more geothermal plants in the area, reducing our need on fossil fuels.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Scar?
> Read on...
> 
> About 40 miles north of the California-Mexico border lies the shrinking, landlocked lake known as the Salton Sea. Though the lake was once the epicenter of a thriving resort community, water contamination and decades of drought have contributed to a collapse of its once-vibrant ecosystem and given rise to ghost towns.
> ...


The scars created may not be visible. 


. "Concerns about air quality, as plants emit pollutants like hydrogen sulfide, ammonia and fine particles. And the big one: devoting precious land and water resources to lithium extraction amid the crisis of the rapidly shrinking Salton Sea, which is causing habitat loss and toxic air pollution in the area.

Yet the methods being researched would also, in some cases, require chemical reagents to process the lithium – compounds that could end up in the local environment.

The other issue, he says, is that expanding geothermal production in a seismically active place might induce some small earthquakes. That’s something his team will be studying closely over the next 15 months."

I believe it's something to consider (mining the lithium) but I'm not fully convinced that the consequences are fully disclosed.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 19, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> Just think if they combined the above stated process in conjunction with
> a DeSal Plant or two that used gravity to fill the Salton Sea after it was
> initially pumped up from the ocean over the higher terrain to the east of the
> San Diego region and left to flow the distance to the Salton Sea region.
> ...


The Salton Sea is pretty much a dead zone so having a desalination plant there should have little environmental impact.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 19, 2022)

The Imperial Valley has....
*Quakes in the past 24 hours:*

2 quakes above magnitude 2
38 quakes below magnitude 2 that people normally don't feel.
In the past 24 hours, Imperial had 2 quakes of magnitude 2.0 or above. There were also 38 quakes below magnitude 2.0 which people don't normally feel.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 19, 2022)

*Lithium Valley: A look at the major players near the Salton Sea seeking billions in funding*
May 14, 2022

.......Gov. Newsom on Friday proposed major grants, loans and infrastructure funds to help developers and county officials speed up pilot tests, approvals and construction, and to educate a skilled workforce and build vital transmission lines. 
Developing quickly is "extremely, extremely essential, the market demand for lithium is absolutely outrageous. I mean, it is huge market demand," said Jim Turner, chief operations officer for Controlled Thermal Resources, an Australian energy company. "If it's supply out of the Salton Sea, regardless of whether it's Energy Source, or Berkshire or us, that means that's the less lithium that the automakers are going to go overseas to get."









						Lithium Valley: A look at the major players near the Salton Sea seeking billions in funding
					

Three companies are honing technologies to extract the valuable mineral from a huge underground reserve, while seeking permits and financing.



					www.desertsun.com


----------



## Multi Sport (May 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Imperial Valley has....
> *Quakes in the past 24 hours:*
> 
> 2 quakes above magnitude 2
> ...





			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 19, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


DANGER WILL ROBINSON!! DANGER!
I have family & friends from and in "the valley"...it shakes, rattles and rolls down there daily...
Was in El Centro last weekend...didn't feel so much as a quiver...


----------



## crush (May 20, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (May 20, 2022)

Wow... for a President who garnered more votes then anyone ever he sure is falling in popularity and credibility.

39% approval


----------



## crush (May 20, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Wow... for a President who garnered more votes then anyone ever he sure is falling in popularity and credibility.
> 
> 39% approval


Beats the previous resident’s low by 5 points.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 20, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Beats the previous resident’s low by 5 points.


President Trump lives in your head rent free.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 20, 2022)

The Biden administration continues doing what they do best. Blame others & ignore problems as well as the law when it comes to securing the southern border, addressing inflation, removing bureaucratic road blocks regarding oil and gas production, assuring American babies have the baby formula they need, enforcing federal laws regarding federal judiciary...


----------



## thirteenknots (May 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The Salton Sea is pretty much a dead zone so having a desalination plant there should have little environmental impact.


The western shoreline is heaps of open space suitable for development of just
such projects !!!!


----------



## watfly (May 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Biden administration continues doing what they do best. Blame others & ignore problems as well as the law when it comes to securing the southern border, addressing inflation, removing bureaucratic road blocks regarding oil and gas production, assuring American babies have the baby formula they need, enforcing federal laws regarding federal judiciary...


They're the deadly combination of misguided policies and gross incompetence.


----------



## Torros (May 20, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Beats the previous resident’s low by 5 points.


Rat Patrol. You really are a unique kind of individual. You have selective information syndrome, constantly ignoring facts that sit in front of you. What do you think Trumps approval rating would have been had he not been attacked, slandered for four years. No Steele dossier, cage building lies just the truth? Now how low would Bidens be if he received the same type of treatment? Yea, I know, your politics wont let you go there, will it. You really are a Rat.


----------



## Torros (May 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> President Trump lives in your head rent free.


And Trump is the only one in there. What a waste of space.


----------



## crush (May 21, 2022)




----------



## Brav520 (May 21, 2022)

Remember when they moved the All star game last year, and the Dems said these would lead to less voting 

oops , wrong again



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/21/voting-is-surging-georgia-despite-controversial-new-election-law/


----------



## crush (May 21, 2022)




----------



## crush (May 22, 2022)




----------



## Brav520 (May 22, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Beats the previous resident’s low by 5 points.


hey look, an actual achievement by Biden !


----------



## crush (May 22, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (May 22, 2022)




----------



## crush (May 22, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> View attachment 13618


You forgot to add his co-pilot and his wife to the flight crew.  Let's be fair Lion Eyes, we got Rhinos in sheep's clothing.


----------



## crush (May 22, 2022)

Look at how Mo is cheating now.  Cheating, misleading, disinformation tricks, lying and spying happen on both sides ((which is really one side if you have been paying attention)).  t took back his endorsement back from Mo two months ago because Mo used t and was not loyal.  Many men and women have been busted for the double cross on t and our country.  The Military is about to take over everyone because..  Life is more important than money and those who grabbed it & took it to go will have no where to go but to give it back.  They cheated and stole all the Diamonds used this horrible time to make $$$$ on all of our fears.  This time around, they will not be on the money train.  They took it without lifting a finger, just cheating and back stabbing deals and of course, pay to play and use babies to make money and make the real dough on Human Trafficking.  Sickos will not be making any more money like this.  That is why their all mad and will go nuts tomorrow.  Tomorrow will be the beginning of the great purge.  Killing and fear will not be taught anymore on the planet.  Get used to that and get on the side of life and love


----------



## Multi Sport (May 23, 2022)

Biden Pledges to Defend Taiwan if It Faces a Chinese Attack
					

Moving away from a policy of “strategic ambiguity,” the president said that to protect the island democracy, he would go beyond what the U.S. has done for Ukraine.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush (May 23, 2022)

WHO is Riden with Biden, are you?


----------



## crush (May 23, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (May 23, 2022)

Paid 6.25 for gas today.

Let's Go Brandon!


----------



## crush (May 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Paid 6.25 for gas today.
> 
> Let's Go Brandon!


Any one pay $7 yet?  I paid $6.89 and felt sick


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Paid 6.25 for gas today.
> 
> Let's Go Brandon!


The average retail price of gasoline while Barack Obama was president was $2.97.


----------



## crush (May 24, 2022)

The war hawks want WWIII.......................................................

Let's get ready to Rumble!!!!  
Are you ready?  I said, "Are yoooooooooouuuuuuuuuu READY??????"  "Ladies and Gentleman, let's get ready to Rumble."  






China+Russia+India and Others vs Joe, Hunter, All Cheaters, HRC, BO, EU, WHO and the UN.   It's not looking good folks.  Something is not looking right and we all know it.  t just said he never thought we could go to a Nuke War but today he's not so sure.  Our leaders are taking us all over to a cliff because they got caught spying, cheating and stealing a US Presidential Election and don't want to be alone going down the cliff.  This is serious you guys.


----------



## watfly (May 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The average retail price of gasoline while Barack Obama was president was $2.97.


And when George W Bush left office it was a $1.84.  And the average price during the Trump Administration was $2.57.   You might want to choose your benchmarks more carefully next time.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The average retail price of gasoline while Barack Obama was president was $2.97.


There you go teeing yourself up again...


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> There you go teeing yourself up again...


Bless his little heart.....


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 24, 2022)

*"Here’s the situation.  And when it comes to the gas prices, we’re going through an incredible transition that is taking place that, God willing, when it’s over, we’ll be stronger and the world will be stronger and less reliant on fossil fuels when this is over," *_Joe Biden_

Ladies & gentlemen we are getting hosed...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> And when George W Bush left office it was a $1.84.  And the average price during the Trump Administration was $2.57.   You might want to choose your benchmarks more carefully next time.


The point is presidents have little influence over the price of gas, we all know this, it’s been discussed ad nauseam . . . during the first part of the pandemic prices dropped due to lack of demand (if you want to get picky) dropping the average significantly, but that was on the oil companies. Like always.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The point is presidents have little influence over the price of gas, we all know this, it’s been discussed ad nauseam . . . during the first part of the pandemic prices dropped due to lack of demand (if you want to get picky) dropping the average significantly, but that was on the oil companies. Like always.


Muahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

This is all part of Joe's green energy plan.
He thinks this is a transition... to....a recession.
Great Plan!


----------



## watfly (May 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The point is presidents have little influence over the price of gas, we all know this, it’s been discussed ad nauseam . . . during the first part of the pandemic prices dropped due to lack of demand (if you want to get picky) dropping the average significantly, but that was on the oil companies. Like always.


Nice redirect, but its at best a half truth.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 24, 2022)

watfly said:


> Nice redirect, but its at best a half truth.


Just trying to keep you on track.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The point is presidents have little influence over the price of gas, we all know this, it’s been discussed ad nauseam . . . during the first part of the pandemic prices dropped due to lack of demand (if you want to get picky) dropping the average significantly, but that was on the oil companies. Like always.


Unless you have a President who ran on a platform of "no fracking" "no drilling" and   "no pipeline ". ALL OF THOSE CONTRIBUTE TO HIGHER GAS PRICES. #clueless


----------



## Multi Sport (May 24, 2022)

C





Hüsker Dü said:


> Beats the previous resident’s low by 5 points.


Careful what you wish for... Ratboy



			https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-05-24/bidens-public-approval-falls-to-36-lowest-of-his-presidency-reuters-ipsos
		


I know. What about President Trump!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Unless you have a President who ran on a platform of "no fracking" "no drilling" and   "no pipeline ". ALL OF THOSE CONTRIBUTE TO HIGHER GAS PRICES. #clueless


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

This group of crazy people want to kill babies right up to birth.  Our fearless leaders care so much about life, especially before that life comes out of the womb.  Oh my, I feel so cared for and I'm sure all of you at the fabulous socal soccer forum feel the love as well.  

"The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit," the president added, quoting Psalm 34. 

"Enough is enough," Harris said. "As a nation, we have to have the courage to take action and understand the nexus between what makes for reasonable and sensible public policy to ensure something like this never happens again."


----------



## Desert Hound (May 25, 2022)

On the bright side...the testimony shows the Russian crap came from HC....

On the down side nobody is going to get punished.


"In a just world, Sussmann would already be in prison. But he’s a Democrat apparatchik in Brandon’s America, so the fix is in, more than somewhat.

If you doubt me, consider the D.C. jury listening to the evidence.

One juror acknowledged he’d contributed to Hillary’s campaign. Another thought she had but couldn’t remember. Another is a former bartender who donated to AOC. Still another juror’s husband worked on Hillary’s 2008 campaign, and yet another supports defunding the police.

Yet they all got onto the jury. After the trial started, still another juror recalled that her daughter was on some private-school crew team with the sleazy Sussmann’s kid.

The judge told her not to worry about it and refused to excuse her.

Who’s the judge, you ask?

His name is Christopher “Casey” Cooper, appointed by Obama after his service on the Obama 2008 transition team. After law school, he worked in the DOJ with the defendant — what a coincidence!

Later the judge was also employed in the same law firm as … Eric Holder, Obama’s self-described “wingman” as attorney general."


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> On the bright side...the testimony shows the Russian crap came from HC....
> 
> On the down side nobody is going to get punished.
> 
> ...


Like I said before and I will say it again, The Military is the only way and believe me Hound, they are 100% in charge.  80% is behind the scenes and Special Ops.  We must hit rock bottom as a country so this shot doesn't happen anymore.  Pay to play has shown it's true colors.  This is all Sus!!!


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> On the bright side...the testimony shows the Russian crap came from HC....
> 
> On the down side nobody is going to get punished.
> 
> ...


What was your source for that?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13657


Hate to break the news to you Stupid ( your word not mine) Biden didn't shut down drilling, fracking or a pipeline in Great Britain.

But props for living up to your new name...


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Hate to break the news to you Stupid ( your word not mine) Biden didn't shut down drilling, fracking or a pipeline in Great Britain.
> 
> But props for living up to your new name...


More cluelessness.  Biden hasn't "shut down" either drilling or fracking.









						Federal Drilling and Fracking Update: Biden Promised a Ban - He's Doing the Opposite
					

White House has failed to use legal authority to halt new oil and gas extraction on public lands




					www.foodandwaterwatch.org
				




As for your favorite pipeline, it wouldn't have b been finished by now anyway and the proponents were intending to sell its products overseas, mostly to China -- otherwise, the financing did not make sense.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 25, 2022)

_*Something to ponder....*_

If President Joe Biden came out forcefully on the side of increasing US oil production, the price of a barrel could fall quickly, experts told The Post — even if it takes a while to bring that new energy online.

Just look at what happened Wednesday in the wake of the United Arab Emirates and Iraq saying they’d up production by an estimated 800,000 barrels a day: The global price of oil dropped by $22 a barrel within minutes.

If Biden signaled full-throated support for US drillers to get to work — and perhaps allowed the re-starting of the Keystone XL Pipeline from Canada — global oil prices could similarly fall sharply, the industry experts told The Post.

“Biden could go to the oil and gas industry and say, ‘OK, I’ve said we’re going to get off oil and gas and that you guys are yesterday’s industry, but I’m going to drop that,'” surmised Myron Ebell, the director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute’s Center for Energy and Environment. “Part of the run up in oil prices is the psychology of it,” he said.

Biden could say to the industry: “‘I need your help,'” Ebell said. But so far, it’s been crickets, according to oil executives who’ve been willing to speak out.

Just last week, CEO Rick Muncrief of Devon Energy — a large driller worth around $40 billion — told Bloomberg that he’d be happy to talk to US officials about upping production. But there’s been no call. “I’m a little mystified that there hasn’t been some dialog,” he said. “It’s not been that long ago that we were asked to drill less, not more,” he said. “They need to be talking about what is it they would really like U.S. producers to do.”

That’s the kind of inaction that’s keeping prices high — up more than 40% since Russia invaded Ukraine and the war has worsened — and up nearly 90% over the past year when looking at the global Brent crude benchmark, which has risen as high as $123 a barrel in recent days when compared to its level of around $63 a year ago.

Entire article:









						Why Biden energy policies have contributed to surging oil prices
					

If President Joe Biden came out forcefully on the side of increasing US oil production, the price of a barrel could fall quickly, experts told The Post — even if it takes a while to bring that new …




					nypost.com


----------



## Desert Hound (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> What was your source for that?


Well silly...info has been coming out for some time.

In the above situation there is a trial going on. Hillary's campaign manager testified that HC authorized the disinformation.

But most of the liberal press refuses to cover the trial and the testimony. So you as usual are left in the dark.


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Well silly...info has been coming out for some time.
> 
> In the above situation there is a trial going on. Hillary's campaign manager testified that HC authorized the disinformation.
> 
> But most of the liberal press refuses to cover the trial and the testimony. So you as usual are left in the dark.


No, silly -- you had quotation marks around a message that was obviously not written in your usual fevered style.  I was just wondering whom you were quoting, or where you read it if you don't know the original author.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> More cluelessness.  Biden hasn't "shut down" either drilling or fracking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your reading comp is something to be desired... last I checked we were no longer under British rule.

Go back to the 1600s where you belong.

#youreallyareclueless


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Well silly...info has been coming out for some time.
> 
> In the above situation there is a trial going on. Hillary's campaign manager testified that HC authorized the disinformation.
> 
> But most of the liberal press refuses to cover the trial and the testimony. So you as usual are left in the dark.


Careful... Magoof is on a quota these days.


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Careful... Magoof is on a quota these days.


I remember when I was right and he was wrong about soccer and other easy deabes. He went write two mi righting skiz too mak himsef feal moore superiur.  He hait mee


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Well silly...info has been coming out for some time.
> 
> In the above situation there is a trial going on. Hillary's campaign manager testified that HC authorized the disinformation.
> 
> But most of the liberal press refuses to cover the trial and the testimony. So you as usual are left in the dark.


Todays facts from the case. 
On the bill, also dated Sept. 19, 2016, the Clinton campaign is listed as the client, the time is listed as 3.3 hours, and the memo states: "work and communications regarding confidential project." Other testimony revealed Sussmann charged approximately $800 per hour.  Expensive lunch and notice that number again from Club 33 Hound?


----------



## thirteenknots (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> More cluelessness.  Biden hasn't "shut down" either drilling or fracking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*LIAR, LIAR, LIAR.*

Why Biden energy policies have contributed to surging oil prices (nypost.com)


----------



## thirteenknots (May 25, 2022)

Daily Presidential Tracking Poll - Rasmussen Reports®


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

crush said:


> I remember when I was right and he was wrong about soccer and other easy deabes. He went write two mi righting skiz too mak himsef feal moore superiur.  He hait mee


That's his MO. He can't handle being wrong so he tries to change the narrative.  Everyone on the forum knows this just like everyone knows he's a liar.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Gov Gav is boasting about California's record surplus.


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> That's his MO. He can't handle being wrong so he tries to change the narrative.  Everyone on the forum knows this just like everyone knows he's a liar.


What do you think I got wrong now?


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> That's his MO. He can't handle being wrong so he tries to change the narrative.  Everyone on the forum knows this just like everyone knows he's a liar.


I wonder it likes to go to bed every night knowing you lie all day and support liars and cheaters......


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Gov Gav is boasting about California's record surplus.











						California Democrats Give Working Families the Shaft in the State Budget | Newsradio 600 KOGO | The DeMaio Report with Carl DeMaio
					

Governor Gavin Newsom revealed his budget proposal this month, which revealed a massive surplus funded by California’s sky-high tax rates on its residents. Reform California Chairman Carl DeMaio is calling for an immediate tax rebate.




					kogo.iheart.com


----------



## crush (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> What do you think I got wrong now?


EVERYTHING!!!!!!  
I came back to the forum in 2018, after being told by two Docs I was not allowed to post on here and that they would appreciate that i not come here at all to get the scoop on everything youth soccer.  I don't have time like Golden Gate ((Hi GG, EOTL and The Long Game)) to go back and check how many times you and Sunshine have been 100% wrong.  I will say you do get some stuff correct on the old school Cal South days and the CSL days.  Besides that, you have a big issue with women and you NEVER answer a question.  You ignore people who school you in debate 101.  Poor Grandpa.  I never had a Grandpa and always thought it would be cool.  However, I was told later in life that both my Biological Grand Parents wanted me sacrificed instead of being born into a loving family.  Grandma was a monster and pure evil I was told.  grandpa did whatever she said and was a whimp!!!


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

crush said:


> I wonder it likes to go to bed every night knowing you lie all day and support liars and cheaters......


I had a brother in law like that once. Everyone knew he lied all the time, even his own kids. People like that lead a sad life... so E must be really sad....


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I had a brother in law like that once. Everyone knew he lied all the time, even his own kids. People like that lead a sad life... so E must be really sad....


I attended my son's wedding last Friday.  Many of his high school and club soccer friends were there.  We had a good time reminiscing about those good times.  No sadness at all.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> I attended my son's wedding last Friday.  Many of his high school and club soccer friends were there.  We had a good time reminiscing about those good times.  No sadness at all.


That poster is projecting, that is obvious, always has been.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That poster is projecting, that is obvious, always has been.


Wow... now I'm in your head too. Gonna admit, there ain't much going on in there. 

Btw.. did your BFF show you his cryptography merit badge yet? 

Oh, what schools are teaching GRT again?

And ask your BFF if he needs more salt on his hash...


----------



## espola (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Wow... now I'm in your head too. Gonna admit, there ain't much going on in there.
> 
> Btw.. did your BFF show you his cryptography merit badge yet?
> 
> ...


You're babbling again.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> You're babbling again.


Show me..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 25, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Show me..


You do a fine job of that all by yourself. You show your ass daily.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You do a fine job of that all by yourself. You show your ass daily.


From the guy who calls himself stupid....lol!

You two are true BFFs. I bet you even finish each other's sentences.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 25, 2022)

espola said:


> You're babbling again.


Well.. you gonna show me or all you all hot air?


----------



## crush (May 26, 2022)




----------



## crush (May 26, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

espola said:


> You're babbling again.





Multi Sport said:


> Well.. you gonna show me or all you all hot air?


Still nothing? Predictable..


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

If Trump were still in office the loons in here would be claiming it's his fault..









						Fuel Prices Send Airfares Higher, but Travelers Seem Ready to Pay
					

Supplies are not keeping up with demand, and costs may go higher, experts say.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush (May 26, 2022)

Devin Nunes- "Joffe we didn’t know was a confidential source for who? The FBI-the same time he was being paid by Hillary Clinton campaign- no matter what happens with Suss we are going to see more indictments."  Suss also decided not to take the stand in his own defense and looks like closing arguments.  Two ways this goes down.  One, dude get's lucky and has that one Juror on his side and walks.  The other one is Guilty by his real peers.  The information is now dripping and folks are busted.


----------



## crush (May 26, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> If Trump were still in office the loons in here would be claiming it's his fault..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most folks who can fly can afford the extra $200 or whatever each way.  My rich friend who is very conservative can afford it and he does and feels bad for the middle class guy that keeps getting ripped by the middleman and men in our country.  Once we as a country destroy the middleman, inflation will drop, gas will drop and we will go back to the 50s and their pricing.  EVERYTHING is inflated and the value is gone.


----------



## watfly (May 26, 2022)

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/05/biden-2024-democrats-search-for-alternative.html


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

watfly said:


> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/05/biden-2024-democrats-search-for-alternative.html


I don't think there is a back up plan. Beto..nope, not now
Kamala.. sorry
Pelosi.. yea right
Shifty.. pass

They need a true moderate. Maybe some like Romney .


----------



## Brav520 (May 26, 2022)

watfly said:


> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/05/biden-2024-democrats-search-for-alternative.html


Biden was nominated to defeat Trump. Mission accomplished

he is useless beyond that


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Biden was nominated to defeat Trump. Mission accomplished
> 
> he is useless beyond that


I'm hoping to watch 2k Mules soon. It should be interesting to see how today's tech was used as surveillance.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You do a fine job of that all by yourself. You show your ass daily.


Hey Sunshine ...remember when you accused me about lying about what E had claimed about being a professional cryptographer? Well, since you didn't do your homework I did it for you.


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 26, 2022)

Crickets......


----------



## espola (May 26, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Hey Sunshine ...remember when you accused me about lying about what E had claimed about being a professional cryptographer? Well, since you didn't do your homework I did it for you.
> 
> View attachment 13682


Do you find the English language to be difficult sometimes?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you find the English language to be difficult sometimes?


Did your cryptography certificate come in a frame or did you have to frame it?


----------



## espola (May 26, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Did your cryptography certificate come in a frame or did you have to frame it?


q.e.d.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


So do you have a problem with Musk buying Twitter?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 26, 2022)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


And yes, that was predictable.  And old..


----------



## espola (May 26, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So do you have a problem with Musk buying Twitter?


No.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 27, 2022)

espola said:


> No.


Was that so hard to say? 

So what about Bezos and the Washington Post?


----------



## crush (May 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Was that so hard to say?
> 
> So what about Bezos and the Washington Post?


Amazing he actually answerred your Q.  Congrats, that is a first


----------



## espola (May 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Was that so hard to say?
> 
> So what about Bezos and the Washington Post?


I said that a long time ago.  Are you seriously that clueless?


----------



## Multi Sport (May 27, 2022)

espola said:


> I said that a long time ago.  Are you seriously that clueless?


Show me.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 27, 2022)

crush said:


> Amazing he actually answerred your Q.  Congrats, that is a first


He doesn't think so...


----------



## espola (May 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Show me.








						Elon Musk
					

What’s next? https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-wants-to-buy-coke-put-cocaine-back-in-2022-4  Minimal amounts of intelligence are required to understand when someone is joking or yanking one's chain...



					www.socalsoccer.com
				




...and other posts about that time.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 27, 2022)

espola said:


> Elon Musk
> 
> 
> What’s next? https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-wants-to-buy-coke-put-cocaine-back-in-2022-4  Minimal amounts of intelligence are required to understand when someone is joking or yanking one's chain...
> ...


Apparently you're having a problem locating your "no" answer.

Let me help you out. Until today, May 27, you never answered with a "no". In typical Magoof fashion, you tried to answer by talking in circles, never actually answering. I'm sure in your mind you thought you did but that's been your MO for years. Everyone knows that about you...


----------



## espola (May 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Apparently you're having a problem locating your "no" answer.
> 
> Let me help you out. Until today, May 27, you never answered with a "no". In typical Magoof fashion, you tried to answer by talking in circles, never actually answering. I'm sure in your mind you thought you did but that's been your MO for years. Everyone knows that about you...


Clueless.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 27, 2022)

espola said:


> Clueless.


So you still can't find it. Or, you discovered your attempt to edit a previous response won't cover your tracks.

Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary you will continue to lie. Anyone can go back and see that you never responded.

You really are an ass... a clueless one at that. Lol!


----------



## crush (May 27, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So you still can't find it. Or, you discovered your attempt to edit a previous response won't cover your tracks.
> 
> Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary you will continue to lie. Anyone can go back and see that you never responded.
> 
> You really are an ass... a clueless one at that. Lol!


He is the Grandpa of all Lies.


----------



## crush (May 28, 2022)

Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## crush (May 28, 2022)

Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## espola (May 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So you still can't find it. Or, you discovered your attempt to edit a previous response won't cover your tracks.
> 
> Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary you will continue to lie. Anyone can go back and see that you never responded.
> 
> You really are an ass... a clueless one at that. Lol!


Your repeated displays of ignorance do not displease me.


----------



## crush (May 28, 2022)

espola said:


> Your repeated displays of ignorance do not displease me.


Spoken like a liar!!!


----------



## Multi Sport (May 28, 2022)

espola said:


> Your repeated displays of ignorance do not displease me.


That's all you got? Still nothing...

Still a liar..


----------



## crush (May 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> That's all you got? Still nothing...
> 
> Still a liar..


The last 6 years of lying and still lies, amazing   All that means to me is this Grandpa decided a long time ago to lie first and then project that lie unto the the person(s) who he lies to all the time.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (May 30, 2022)

Honor fallen soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for this country.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 31, 2022)

Apparently Iran is 18x over the agreed amount of enriched uranium per the 2015 agreement. I wonder if Joe will comment on this...









						Iran Now Has Enough Uranium For Nuclear Weapon, U.N. Watchdog Reportedly Says
					

The U.N.’s nuclear agency has pressed Iran to cooperate with a probe into its nuclear program, as the United States pushes to reenter a 2015 nuclear deal.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 31, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Apparently Iran is 18x over the agreed amount of enriched uranium per the 2015 agreement. I wonder if Joe will comment on this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As soon as President Biden becomes aware of it, he will respond as he is instructed by his staff.


----------



## espola (May 31, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Apparently Iran is 18x over the agreed amount of enriched uranium per the 2015 agreement. I wonder if Joe will comment on this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 2015 agreement was scrapped by the previous administration.  I wonder what happened then?


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 31, 2022)

espola said:


> The 2015 agreement was scrapped by the previous administration.  I wonder what happened then?


We should ask Russia as they are negotiating for us regarding this...


----------



## Lion Eyes (May 31, 2022)

Joe Biden
stated on May 12, 2022 in a tweet:
“When President Biden took office … there was no vaccine available.”









By Louis Jacobson • May 16, 2022

Joe Biden
stated on March 1, 2022 in in his State of the Union address:
“I’ve been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan over 40 times.”









By Samantha Putterman • March 3, 2022

oe Biden
stated on April 11, 2022 in a press conference:
“You couldn’t buy a cannon when, in fact, the Second Amendment passed."









By Yacob Reyes • April 12, 2022

More entertainment:





						| PolitiFact
					

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.




					www.politifact.com


----------



## Desert Hound (May 31, 2022)

espola said:


> The 2015 agreement was scrapped by the previous administration.  I wonder what happened then?


The problem with the "agreement" is that it needed to be approved by the senate as all treaties are supposed go this route. Obama decided not to do that.


----------



## Multi Sport (May 31, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe Biden
> stated on May 12, 2022 in a tweet:
> “When President Biden took office … there was no vaccine available.”
> 
> ...


And people will use this as proof.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 1, 2022)

*Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen conceded Tuesday she was wrong when she predicted last year that inflation would not become a major problem for American household*s.

Yellen and other White House officials last year claimed inflation was a temporary side effect of the steep economic recovery from the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic. 

In March 2021, Yellen said she believed there was only “a small risk” of inflation and added, “I think it’s manageable.”

In May of last year, she said, “I don't anticipate that inflation is going to be a problem.”









						Treasury Secretary Yellen: 'I was wrong' about inflation
					

She had predicted inflation would not be a major problem




					www.ny1.com
				





For 16 months the administration has done nothing or has reacted so poorly as to be incompetent...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 1, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen conceded Tuesday she was wrong when she predicted last year that inflation would not become a major problem for American household*s.
> 
> Yellen and other White House officials last year claimed inflation was a temporary side effect of the steep economic recovery from the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> ...


Here she is trying to explain back then and now.  









						You Had One Job...And You FAILED
					

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen admits to not understanding basic economics.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AntonioChavez  SOUR…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 2, 2022)

With the mid term elections quickly approaching...
President Biden just gave 560,000 in debt voters a $5,800,000,000.00 payment.


----------



## espola (Jun 2, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> With the mid term elections quickly approaching...
> President Biden just gave 560,000 in debt voters a $5,800,000,000.00 payment.


The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 2, 2022)

espola said:


> The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation.


The Department of Education provided funding/loans for...


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 2, 2022)

‘There Are a Lot of People Very Close to the President Who Privately Understand That This Is a Complete Disaster’ | National Review
					

So speak up.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## espola (Jun 2, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Department of Education provided funding/loans for...


Did you intend that fragment to have some meaning?


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

If you want to catch them all, then you need to play with them all, and then you catch them all on video.  t said he caught them all.


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> Did you intend that fragment to have some meaning?


Sorry Magoo, didn't mean to throw you a curve..
"The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation."
"The Department of Education provided funding/loans for... " the fraudulent operations.
Comprende?


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Sorry Magoo, didn't mean to throw you a curve..
> "The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation."
> "The Department of Education provided funding/loans for... " the fraudulent operations.
> Comprende?


You threw Gramps a spit ball bro........dude can;t hit jack.  I came here four years ago just throwing batting practice and he whiffed on all my BPs.  He couldn;t handle slow pitch debating so he ignored me.  Losers who can;t hit go play softball.......


----------



## dad4 (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe Biden
> stated on May 12, 2022 in a tweet:
> “When President Biden took office … there was no vaccine available.”
> 
> ...


I’d say the first one was mostly true.  On inauguration day, the vaccine existed, but was not avaiable to the vast majority of the population.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> I’d say the first one was mostly true.  On inauguration day, the vaccine existed, but was not avaiable to the vast majority of the population.


“When President Biden took office … there was no vaccine available.”

Mostly true? Using what standard? Come on Daddio, really?
The vaccine was developed in record time....

• *A vaccine did exist before Biden took office.* In fact, Biden himself received his first shot about a month before he took office. In all, more than 20 million shots were administered while Trump was president.

• When Biden took office, the vaccine was not “widely available,” as the White House’s corrected tweet said. Initially, only *health care and other frontline workers, along with the most elderly Americans, were eligible. *


----------



## dad4 (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> “When President Biden took office … there was no vaccine available.”
> 
> Mostly true? Using what standard? Come on Daddio, really?
> 
> ...


“Available” means people can get it.  Almost none of us could get it.  Therefore, for most Americans, it was not ”available”.  

What did you think the word means?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> “Available” means people can get it.  Almost none of us could get it.  Therefore, for most Americans, it was not ”available”.
> 
> What did you think the word means?


Well Daddio, the White House felt it was necessary to correct their fuck up...what do you think that means
*
"On May 13, the White House walked back its original statement, tweeting, "We previously misstated that vaccines were unavailable in January 2021. We should have said that they were not widely available. Vaccines became available shortly before the president came into office."*


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

Surprised?

*WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Gallup's Economic Confidence Index measured -45 in May, down from -39 in each of the previous two months. It is the lowest reading in Gallup's trend during the coronavirus pandemic, and likely the lowest confidence has been since the tail end of the Great Recession in early 2009.*


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Well Daddio, the White House felt it was necessary to correct their fuck up...what do you think that means
> 
> *"On May 13, the White House walked back its original statement, tweeting, "We previously misstated that vaccines were unavailable in January 2021. We should have said that they were not widely available. Vaccines became available shortly before the president came into office."*


So the WH corrected the mistake of not qualifying "available" more clearly when pretty much any moderately intelligent person would know what Biden meant ("Oh he's right,  I can't get the jab right now")?  I'm not a huge Biden fan, but this one is definitely a reach.  I can only imagine what politifact would look like if the same level of pedanticism was applied to everything Trump said.


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Sorry Magoo, didn't mean to throw you a curve..
> "The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation."
> "The Department of Education provided funding/loans for... " the fraudulent operations.
> Comprende?


*Predatory Loans*
Tuition and fees for some Corinthian programs were more than five times the cost of similar programs at public colleges. In 2013, the Corinthian tuition and fees for an associate’s degree was $33,000 to $43,000. The tuition and fees for a bachelor’s degree at Corinthian cost $60,000 to $75,000.

The CFPB believes the Corinthian colleges deliberately inflated tuition prices to be higher than federal loan limits so that most students were forced to rely on additional sources of funding. The Corinthian schools then relied on deceptive statements regarding its education program to induce students into taking out its high-cost private student loans, known as “Genesis loans.” Today’s lawsuit alleges that under the Genesis loan program:


*Interest rates were more than twice as expensive:* Corinthian sold its students predatory loans that typically had substantially higher interest rates than federal loans. In July 2011, the Genesis loan interest rate was about 15 percent with an origination fee of 6 percent. Meanwhile, the interest rate for federal student loans during that time was about 3 percent to 7 percent, with low or no origination fees.
*Loans were likely to fail:* Corinthian expected that most of its students would ultimately default on their Genesis loans. In fact, more than 60 percent of Corinthian school students defaulted on their loans within three years. The Everest, Heald, and WyoTech schools did not tell students about these high default rates. Defaulting on private student loans can have grave consequences for consumers, including affecting a borrower’s job prospects and making it difficult to get any kind of loan for years.









						CFPB Sues For-Profit Corinthian Colleges for Predatory Lending Scheme | Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
					

CFPB Sues For-Profit Corinthian Colleges for Predatory Lending Scheme




					www.consumerfinance.gov


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> So the WH corrected the mistake of not qualifying "available" more clearly when pretty much any moderately intelligent person would know what Biden meant ("Oh he's right,  I can't get the jab right now")?  I'm not a huge Biden fan, but this one is definitely a reach.  I can only imagine what politifact would look like if the same level of pedanticism was applied to everything Trump said.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> So the WH corrected the mistake of not qualifying "available" more clearly when pretty much any moderately intelligent person would know what Biden meant ("Oh he's right,  I can't get the jab right now")?  I'm not a huge Biden fan, but this one is definitely a reach.  I can only imagine what politifact would look like if the same level of pedanticism was applied to everything Trump said.


Politifact did look at Trump the same as Biden...that's what they do.
Apparently the White House found it necessary to CORRECT what the President meant...
Just shows and confirms a pattern: 
The border is closed, the Afghan withdrawal was a success, inflation is transitory, baby formula unavailability, etc., ad nauseam....


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

This is a funny meme but it's not funny that any kid got addicted to crack.  Crack is no good and Joe was not a good Dad, moo   Things from the Lap Top from Hell are now dripping on TRUTH.  Espola, head over to TRUTH and find all your looking for from the Lap Tops from Hell.  Joe has his prints everywhere and it's a cumulation of over 30 years of hard work to grow the family business and how they made their money.  It makes Creepy Joe look like a monster and that's being nice.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

@Hüsker Dü 

Do you know what 40.5 represents?

The lowest ever approval rating 500 days into office.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Politifact did look at Trump the same as Biden...that's what they do.
> Apparently the White House found it necessary to CORRECT what the President meant...
> Just shows and confirms a pattern:
> The border is closed, the Afghan withdrawal was a success, inflation is transitory, baby formula unavailability, etc., ad nauseam....


Trump said so many stupid things there wasn't enough staff at politifact to be as pedantic as this specific example.


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Trump said so many stupid things there wasn't enough staff at politifact to be as pedantic as this specific example.


You have TDS bro, seek help quickly so you can stay and play for free with the rest of us


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> *Predatory Loans*
> Tuition and fees for some Corinthian programs were more than five times the cost of similar programs at public colleges. In 2013, the Corinthian tuition and fees for an associate’s degree was $33,000 to $43,000. The tuition and fees for a bachelor’s degree at Corinthian cost $60,000 to $75,000.
> 
> The CFPB believes the Corinthian colleges deliberately inflated tuition prices to be higher than federal loan limits so that most students were forced to rely on additional sources of funding. The Corinthian schools then relied on deceptive statements regarding its education program to induce students into taking out its high-cost private student loans, known as “Genesis loans.” Today’s lawsuit alleges that under the Genesis loan program:
> ...


I'm just curious.  Will the Biden administration push for all bad debt to be forgiven? How many people were roped into bad mortages because of predatory lending practices? Where is the proverbial " line in the sand"?


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I'm just curious.  Will the Biden administration push for all bad debt to be forgiven? How many people were roped into bad mortages because of predatory lending practices? Where is the proverbial " line in the sand"?


I was just talking to my buddy and best pal.  His dd was roped into a worthless degree from a college that bills itself as "Elite" a few years ago.  Girl can;t find any work and they "sold" her loans for 6 years so she could be a full time student and not have to work part time.  Now she is in love with the man of her dreams.  However, he is self made and has no debt.  This girl comes with a mortgage payment and no job and no house.  She owes over $150,000 and can;t find a job and the guy she likes looks like he's bailing because of the debt she has.  This girl had no business going to college and only went because she was told to go by her private school.  True stories out like this and it goes with the guys who thought going to college would get them a better job.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Trump said so many stupid things there wasn't enough staff at politifact to be as pedantic as this specific example.


Ohhh....I got ya.
Justify Biden's long list of ineptitude by blaming Trump...
Brilliant!!


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Ohhh....I got ya.
> Justify Biden's long list of ineptitude by blaming Trump...
> Brilliant!!


I have bffs on both sides and they all crack me up and scare me.  My former fellowship of Christian Brethren think I'm into New Age, Eastern Thought and Yoga. They don;t like that I don't say, "Jesus Christ" or "Praise the Lord" and I don't go to church and they think I'm lost and fallen away and I only say "Yeshua." and mediate and do contemplation and I go inner and said of yelling out, "Jesus is Lord."  Both sides need to calm down and start making deals or things are going to worse.  One thing I like about t is he knows these people well and he knows their sick and he knows how to make deals with these types.  it does take one to know one.  I also have my Gun Guys telling me to buy food, get a gun and have plenty of ammo.  Fear base porn on both sides is for the birds and will not have any of it.  I picked love and this place does not help me love my neighbor the way I want to.  Little liar will be know more and I already know that.  It's not worth my time and it's time for me to walk away from being online too much.  Peace out this Sunday Lion Eyes.  I want to go out with a dear song that speaks to my heart about this place we hang out to vent a little and debate.  The local pubs are starting up with masks again and that sucks!!!


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Ohhh....I got ya.
> Justify Biden's long list of ineptitude by blaming Trump...
> Brilliant!!


I'm cool if you don't like Biden.  The optics aren't great, though, when you're slamming him based on a silly example like this.  I bring up Trump because pulling out moments of stupidity was shooting fish in a barrel.  But go on, spend your time on SoCal soccer forum trying to make yourself feel better about your beliefs which are probably on a rocky foundation to begin with.  Whatever brings you happiness.


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I'm just curious.  Will the Biden administration push for all bad debt to be forgiven? How many people were roped into bad mortages because of predatory lending practices? Where is the proverbial " line in the sand"?


Do you know the differences between mortgage loan debts and student loan debts?


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I bring up Trump because.........


I, NorCalDad, has a bad case of TDS.  Big Pharma got some pills for you bro.  The Juice has hacked your brain as well.  PM me and I can help I promise. I take donations at this time so it's kind of free or share.  Look at what your avatar has become btw.  I'm disappointed but not surprised.  It was nice debating with you all these years.  Good luck and please stay safe and stay off the Juice man.


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you know the differences between mortgage loan debts and student loan debts?


No.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I'm just curious.  Will the Biden administration push for all bad debt to be forgiven? How many people were roped into bad mortages because of predatory lending practices? Where is the proverbial " line in the sand"?


Remember they are not looking to erase the debt of just students who went to certain schools. They want to cover all the loans from every institution. 

So per usual espola brings up a straw man argument he heard and thought that was his gotcha moment. 

There is no good reason to cancel out debt of people who went to college. The prez doesn't have the authority. And then of course...why stop there? Why just those loans? Why should people who paid off their loans not get money back, etc. 

It is a stupid idea economically and appeals to the economic illiterate and those are the votes the Ds are trying to catch.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm cool if you don't like Biden.  The optics aren't great, though, when you're slamming him based on a silly example like this.  I bring up Trump because pulling out moments of stupidity was shooting fish in a barrel.  But go on, spend your time on SoCal soccer forum trying to make yourself feel better about your beliefs which are probably on a rocky foundation to begin with.  Whatever brings you happiness.


Slamming ? Hmmmm....
One more time..it's simply an example illustrating the incompetence of the President.
Joe Biden has a long history of plagiarism and lies...that's not an attack, it is fact.
The rest of your post is speculation and horseshit...the truth can be difficult for some Daddy's.
Enjoy your week end Daddy


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Remember they are not looking to erase the debt of just students who went to certain schools. They want to cover all the loans from every institution.
> 
> So per usual espola brings up a straw man argument he heard and thought that was his gotcha moment.
> 
> ...


Straw man?  I was responding to LE's empty jibe about the recent decision by the Biden administration to forgive all outstanding student loan debt arising from contracts with Corinthian Colleges.  Do you have some evidence that those debts did not arise from a deliberate fraudulent scheme by Corintihian?  If so, speak up.

The link I provided is pretty clear.  If you are still unconvinced, here is some more background --









						Corinthian Colleges Investigation
					

The Main Players The founders and executives of Corinthian Colleges earned hundreds of millions of dollars from a for-profit college that exploited poor and working-class students, leaving taxpayer…




					markluburic.wordpress.com


----------



## dad4 (Jun 3, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Remember they are not looking to erase the debt of just students who went to certain schools. They want to cover all the loans from every institution.
> 
> So per usual espola brings up a straw man argument he heard and thought that was his gotcha moment.
> 
> ...


Blanket loan forgiveness mostly appeals to people who borrowed large sums for an unmarketable degree.  (And people who make a living teaching classes in unmarketable majors.)

If you borrowed 100K to finish your engineering degree at state school, you probably don't need to attend a rally for loan forgiveness.  

Targeted loan forgiveness for students of fraudulent institutions like Corinthian or Trump U is another question.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm cool if you don't like Biden.  The optics aren't great, though, when you're slamming him based on a silly example like this.  I bring up Trump because pulling out moments of stupidity was shooting fish in a barrel.  But go on, spend your time on SoCal soccer forum trying to make yourself feel better about your beliefs which are probably on a rocky foundation to begin with.  Whatever brings you happiness.


This post...you sound like Es offspring.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> Straw man?  I was responding to LE's empty jibe about the recent decision by the Biden administration to forgive all outstanding student loan debt arising from contracts with Corinthian Colleges.  Do you have some evidence that those debts did not arise from a deliberate fraudulent scheme by Corintihian?  If so, speak up.
> 
> The link I provided is pretty clear.  If you are still unconvinced, here is some more background --
> 
> ...


Empty jibe or gibe?
Your right Magoo, none of the 560,000 debt canceled recipients will consider voting Democrat in November.


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Empty jibe or gibe?
> Your right Magoo, none of the 560,000 debt canceled recipients will consider voting Democrat in November.


jibe
verb (2)
*variant spelling of GIBE*
intransitive verb
*: *to utter taunting words









						Definition of JIBE
					

to be in accord : agree —usually used with with… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com
				




As for who would vote which way, I made no statement.

"The only relief that was granted was to victims of a criminally fraudulent operation."

That's the whole post.


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> This post...you sound like Es offspring.


Have you figured out the differences yet?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> jibe
> verb (2)
> *variant spelling of GIBE*
> intransitive verb
> ...


Enlightening jibe......


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> Have you figured out the differences yet?


He's not Husker Du?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> Have you figured out the differences yet?


Did uou read Bits Whitepaper yet? Or Cardano, Fetch and Cronos?  
Do you know the difference between stare and compare and spying? 

I can play your game just as good as you..


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> He's not Husker Du?


I'm better looking..


----------



## espola (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Did uou read Bits Whitepaper yet? Or Cardano, Fetch and Cronos?
> Do you know the difference between stare and compare and spying?
> 
> I can play your game just as good as you..


You keep on repeating the same ignorant nonsense.  You're not learning anythiing.

F


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 3, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Slamming ? Hmmmm....
> One more time..it's simply an example illustrating the incompetence of the President.
> Joe Biden has a long history of plagiarism and lies...that's not an attack, it is fact.
> The rest of your post is speculation and horseshit...the truth can be difficult for some Daddy's.
> Enjoy your week end Daddy


It's a pretty dumb illustration.  No speculation here.  Your foundation couldn't be any more porous.  But please...keep spending all your time responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden with nonsense.  I wonder if Biden knows that "weekend" is one word.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 3, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> This post...you sound like Es offspring.


Buuuuuurn.  Do you have friends?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

Arizona woman pleads guilty in ballot collection operation
					

An Arizona woman accused of illegally collecting early ballots during the 2020 primary election has pleaded guilty.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Buuuuuurn.  Do you have friends?


Ouch..your hurting my feelings. Lol!!


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> It's a pretty dumb illustration.  No speculation here.  Your foundation couldn't be any more porous.  But please...keep spending all your time responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden with nonsense.  I wonder if Biden knows that "weekend" is one word.


My mistake... with that post you must be
 related to Sunshine.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 3, 2022)

espola said:


> You keep on repeating the same ignorant nonsense.  You're not learning anythiing.
> 
> F


There you thinking your a teacher. Identity issues again?


----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)




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## Lion Eyes (Jun 4, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> It's a pretty dumb illustration.  No speculation here.  Your foundation couldn't be any more porous.  But please...keep spending all your time responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden with nonsense.  I wonder if Biden knows that "weekend" is one word.


Hey Daddy, when one resorts to correcting spelling and punctuation, one should probably just move along.
Oddly enough, you seem to be responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden, whilst ignoring Joe's propensity for lies and plagiarism.


----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Hey Daddy, when one resorts to correcting spelling and punctuation, one should probably just move along.
> Oddly enough, you seem to be responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden, whilst ignoring Joe's propensity for lies and plagiarism.


Now you get it.  Lies and spies go deep in the youth soccer world.  The information I have received the last four years is insane.  He evaluated players and the weak one's he put up top. Remember what he said his purpose of Teen Church Camp was really for, right?  A little Sores Disciple.


----------



## espola (Jun 4, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> There you thinking your a teacher. Identity issues again?


I have tried to help, but you appear to be comfortable in your state of ignorance.


----------



## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Poor Peter.  Dude is 72 and you put him in shackles and cuffs?  

"Wow! Peter Navarro, our brilliant *Harvard educated *White House *Trade Official who was by far the toughest advocate for Tariffs, Taxes & powerful Regulations on China*, was just handcuffed, shackled, and put into prison* because he didn’t obey the orders* of the Unselect Committee of political THUGS, many of whom were involved with Impeachment Hoax #1, Impeachment Hoax #2, the Mueller Report Scam and, of course, the now fully debunked RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA Con. *They’ve gone CRAZY!!!"  t*


----------



## crush (Jun 5, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 5, 2022)




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## Lion Eyes (Jun 6, 2022)

Do these folks know that the administration has proclaimed the border is closed?


*Caravan of over 10,000 migrants leaving southern Mexico for U.S.*


MEXICO CITY, June 6 (Xinhua) -- A new caravan with more than 10,000 migrants left southern Mexico on Monday with the aim of reaching the U.S. border, organizers and local media reported.

The largest contingent so far this year, made up of Central American, South American and Caribbean migrants, departed from the city of Tapachula in the Mexican state of Chiapas on the border with Guatemala.


Many of its members have been waiting for months to regularize their immigration status in Mexico and legally transit to the U.S. border.

The caravan coincides with the start of the ninth Summit of the Americas, where heads of state and government will meet in the U.S. city of Los Angeles on June 6-10 to address several issues such as the increase in irregular migratory flows.


Luis Garcia Villagran, an activist with the Center for Human Dignity who is coordinating the caravan, told local media that the aim of the action is to show continental leaders that "migrant women and children, and migrant families are not a bargaining chip for ideological and political interests," and that "the southern border is nobody's backyard."

Caravan of over 10,000 migrants leaving southern Mexico for U.S. | The Star


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 6, 2022)

Nice to see President Biden commemorate the D-Day anniversary.................NOT!


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Do these folks know that the administration has proclaimed the border is closed?
> 
> 
> *Caravan of over 10,000 migrants leaving southern Mexico for U.S.*
> ...


Maybe E, Sunshine and the other guy can have them stay with them...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 6, 2022)




----------



## watfly (Jun 6, 2022)

Instead of paying off student loans, how about schools with multi-billion dollar endowments start reducing tuition.  One example is University of Michigan which will cost you $75k a year to attend if you're out of state.  It's endowment, which is $17+ BILLION grew by 41% in 2021, yet tuition costs continue to increase.  The 20 year return on its endowment investments have averaged 9.5% annually, yet their annual distribution rate rate is only 4.5%.  Tuition has increased year over year.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Instead of paying off student loans, how about schools with multi-billion dollar endowments start reducing tuition.  One example is University of Michigan which will cost you $75k a year to attend if you're out of state.  It's endowment, which is $17+ BILLION grew by 41% in 2021, yet tuition costs continue to increase.  The 20 year return on its endowment investments have averaged 9.5% annually, yet their annual distribution rate rate is only 4.5%.  Tuition has increased year over year.


So they are making billions a year in tax free 'endowments' while helping predatory lenders lock students into unfair loans... and Biden, in his infinite wisdom, looks at this equation and has decided that throwing billions of federal money at it will somehow improve things. Good grief. 

It's getting to the point where I have to wonder is he living on another planet or corrupt?


----------



## tenacious (Jun 7, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Hey Daddy, when one resorts to correcting spelling and punctuation, one should probably just move along.
> Oddly enough, you seem to be responding on a youth soccer forum about Joe Biden, whilst ignoring Joe's propensity for lies and plagiarism.


In fairness... during the Trump years you did the same. Yea if pressed you might say I don't agree with him, but I can't remember a single lie you called him out on, or time you outspokenly broke with the party line.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> So they are making billions a year in tax free 'endowments' while helping predatory lenders lock students into unfair loans... and Biden, in his infinite wisdom, looks at this equation and has decided that throwing billions of federal money at it will somehow improve things. Good grief.
> 
> It's getting to the point where I have to wonder is he living on another planet or corrupt?


There is an endowment tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_tax

I don't think these large endowments are super ubiquitous considering how many colleges/unis there are out there:









						List of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




But I agree, those should be chipped away a bit -- an indirect way of taxing the 1% I suppose.


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> There is an endowment tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_tax
> 
> I don't think these large endowments are super ubiquitous considering how many colleges/unis there are out there:
> 
> ...


Particulary when our universities are being funded by us to the tune of $112 billion a year for tuition alone, not to mention grants, federal research funding etc.  I'm picking on U of Michigan but they receive over $1 billion from the federal government annually.


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> It's getting to the point where I have to wonder is he living on another planet or corrupt?


It's gross incompetence driven by strict adherence to a misguided narrative founded in emotion and not substance and an administration chosen based on identity and not qualifications.  Harris, Buttigieg, Blinken, Mayorkas, Becerra, Granholm, Austin, Blinken.  Really?  The seven dwarfs could out perform this group.  If you look at their responses to difficult problems their #1 response is to laugh, their #2 response is to say they are doing everything they can and have been working on it for months without saying what they are doing and their #3 response, when all else fails, they gaslight.

Not all the problems we're having were caused by the Biden administration, but their policies are either excerbating the problem or they do nothing to address them. For some reason, they act like if they ignore a problem it will go away.  In many ways the media is complicit...if they don't report it the problem doesn't exist.  Some of their policies might be OK in certain times, but not in the current times of runaway inflation.  Telling people to deal with high gas prices by buying an electric car may be fine in 2040, but its not feasible in 2022.

I don't think Joe is inherently financially corrupt, Hunter clearly is and has exploited his dad's position to further his schemes.  Joe knows what's going on, but he is using the Seargant Schultz strategy.

You combine this with someone who is clearly in cognitive decline and you get where we are today.

If the Republicans don't do anything stupid (not holding my breath) between now and November it might be a red tsunami.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> In fairness... during the Trump years you did the same. Yea if pressed you might say I don't agree with him, but I can't remember a single lie you called him out on, or time you outspokenly broke with the party line.


When Trump took over the party, I left the party and registered Independent...
In fairness, I doubt that you have read everything I've posted over the years. Is anything I've posted a lie regarding Joe Biden?
In fairness, under Trump we did not have the Afghan exit disaster; the border was under control, gas & food were 1/2 of what they are now, baby formula was not in short supply, etc.
Trump did indeed lie but mostly about things like the number of folks who attended his inauguration...BFD
I didn't vote for Trump & I didn't vote for Biden...Trump is a liar, Biden is a liar and incompetent..
Trump is no longer President and if he was and he was as miserably as incompetent as Joe is, he'd get called out too.
Poor Joe, even the liberal press is seemingly beginning to question his competence...


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Particulary when our universities are being funded by us to the tune of $112 billion a year for tuition alone, not to mention grants, federal research funding etc.  I'm picking on U of Michigan but they receive over $1 billion from the federal government annually.


The research funding is worth it though.  Universities do a lot of good work there.  Research gets funded that otherwise wouldn't in our current economic model.   What's that breakdown of federal funding for U of M?


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> The research funding is worth it though.  Universities do a lot of good work there.  Research gets funded that otherwise wouldn't in our current economic model.   What's that breakdown of federal funding for U of M?


Fair, although there is some crazy research that has no practical relevance.  My point is the universities should look to its own pot first before it dips into the public cookie jar.

You also have to evaluate whether or not you think your child is getting their monies worth for their education at a research university vs a teaching university.  There are pros and cons to both.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Fair, although there is some crazy research that has no practical relevance.  My point is the universities should look to its own pot first before it dips into the public cookie jar.
> 
> You also have to evaluate whether or not you think your child is getting their monies worth for their education at a research university vs a teaching university.  There are pros and cons to both.


Totally agree.  I would have some very frank conversations with my kids if they picked degrees with bleak earning potential.  I think those areas are valuable but we haven't figured out how to appropriately fund them as a society.  

Crazy research today could turn into something normal tomorrow.  Plus, I don't think the Feds are just handing out money like it's candy.  You generally have to go through a whole grant proposal process that isn't super simple.  I mean it's not like the PPP loans.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> The research funding is worth it though.  Universities do a lot of good work there.  Research gets funded that otherwise wouldn't in our current economic model.   What's that breakdown of federal funding for U of M?


@baldref  I know you do a laughing emoticon on everything you disagree with, but this one is puzzling to me.  You don't think Universities should do research?  I'd love to understand your mindset here?  Did you happen to get a bachelor's degree?


----------



## espola (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> @baldref  I know you do a laughing emoticon on everything you disagree with, but this one is puzzling to me.  You don't think Universities should do research?  I'd love to understand your mindset here?  Did you happen to get a bachelor's degree?


How do you know he is disagreeing?


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Totally agree.  I would have some very frank conversations with my kids if they picked degrees with bleak earning potential.  I think those areas are valuable but we haven't figured out how to appropriately fund them as a society.


It the primary reason why we decided the UC's weren't a good option for my daughter.  Other than Engineering there really aren't many practical and marketable majors at the UC's, primarily just liberal art's degrees.  Probably fine if you going to pursue a masters degree, law degree or doctorate, but not super marketable for a job right out of college.


----------



## baldref (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> @baldref  I know you do a laughing emoticon on everything you disagree with, but this one is puzzling to me.  You don't think Universities should do research?  I'd love to understand your mindset here?  Did you happen to get a bachelor's degree?


I laugh when I think something is funny. Agree or disagree.


----------



## espola (Jun 7, 2022)

baldref said:


> I laugh when I think something is funny. Agree or disagree.


Do you laugh at watfly's apostrophes?


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

espola said:


> Do you laugh at watfly's apostrophes?


My excessive use of quote marks and parentheses is far worse.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Crazy research today could turn into something normal tomorrow.


On this we can agree. It would be nice if Technical Colleges we viewed more like traditional colleges by HS counselors.  
It's like it's frowned upon.









						After decades of pushing bachelor’s degrees, U.S. needs more tradespeople
					

As California budgets millions to rebrand long-disparaged vocational education, there are an estimated 30 million jobs in the U.S. that pay at least $55,000 per year and don’t require a bachelor’s degree.




					www.pbs.org


----------



## watfly (Jun 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> On this we can agree. It would be nice if Technical Colleges we viewed more like traditional colleges by HS counselors.
> It's like it's frowned upon.
> 
> 
> ...


100%.  We used to have "shop" classes in high school including auto shop.  No more in most cases.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

espola said:


> How do you know he is disagreeing?


Good point -- though, anecdotally I think my assumption here isn't too far off the mark.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> 100%.  We used to have "shop" classes in high school including auto shop.  No more in most cases.


Yeah it's a shame to see those go.  Even driver's ed is gone now.  I remember taking the course in high school on those janky simulators from the 70s.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

baldref said:


> I laugh when I think something is funny. Agree or disagree.


So what was funny about what I said?


----------



## baldref (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> So what was funny about what I said?


I'm not here to debate anyone. However, since you asked, I think it's funny when someone makes a blanket statement and presents it like it's a fact. That's a product of the pols and media constantly doing it. "The research funding is worth it though." In my opinion, very little of it is, and even a smaller percentage is worthy of my tax dollars. These institutions are part of a mutli-billion dollar industry. Fund your own research. As for your questions about my education, it matters not. Why would you believe me or even want to know?  And again, that's just my opinion and I'm not here to argue or debate it. Just here for a few laughs. So, have a great day...... I am.


----------



## espola (Jun 7, 2022)

baldref said:


> I'm not here to debate anyone. However, since you asked, I think it's funny when someone makes a blanket statement and presents it like it's a fact. That's a product of the pols and media constantly doing it. "The research funding is worth it though." In my opinion, very little of it is, and even a smaller percentage is worthy of my tax dollars. These institutions are part of a mutli-billion dollar industry. Fund your own research. As for your questions about my education, it matters not. Why would you believe me or even want to know?  And again, that's just my opinion and I'm not here to argue or debate it. Just here for a few laughs. So, have a great day...... I am.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 7, 2022)

baldref said:


> I'm not here to debate anyone. However, since you asked, I think it's funny when someone makes a blanket statement and presents it like it's a fact. That's a product of the pols and media constantly doing it. "The research funding is worth it though." In my opinion, very little of it is, and even a smaller percentage is worthy of my tax dollars. These institutions are part of a mutli-billion dollar industry. Fund your own research. As for your questions about my education, it matters not. Why would you believe me or even want to know?  And again, that's just my opinion and I'm not here to argue or debate it. Just here for a few laughs. So, have a great day...... I am.


Ok, so I was right  And I appreciate you responding.  While I disagree with your opinion, I can respect it. 

The reason I asked about whether or not you went to a University has everything to do with exposure to the research I'm talking about. 

The Internet was formed in collaboration of DARPA and many universities.  Our ability to even be having this conversation or for you to post a laughing emoji is all due to federal monies.  While the Internet was a massive economic engine starting in the late 90s,  that certainly wasn't the drive or motivation back in the 70s.  There are countless discoveries that have come out of universities that you and I benefit from.  But I get it, you have your frame of reference, and that's fine.


----------



## espola (Jun 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Particulary when our universities are being funded by us to the tune of $112 billion a year for tuition alone, not to mention grants, federal research funding etc.  I'm picking on U of Michigan but they receive over $1 billion from the federal government annually.


Which research grants would you remove?



			http://ns.umich.edu/Releases/2009/Sep09/FY2009_Research_Expenditures.pdf


----------



## espola (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> There is an endowment tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_tax
> 
> I don't think these large endowments are super ubiquitous considering how many colleges/unis there are out there:
> 
> ...


Enacting that endowment tax was one of the patches to cover up the revenue lost due to the big tax cuts for the wealthy enacted at that time.


----------



## baldref (Jun 7, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Ok, so I was right  And I appreciate you responding.  While I disagree with your opinion, I can respect it.
> 
> The reason I asked about whether or not you went to a University has everything to do with exposure to the research I'm talking about.
> 
> The Internet was formed in collaboration of DARPA and many universities.  Our ability to even be having this conversation or for you to post a laughing emoji is all due to federal monies.  While the Internet was a massive economic engine starting in the late 90s,  that certainly wasn't the drive or motivation back in the 70s.  There are countless discoveries that have come out of universities that you and I benefit from.  But I get it, you have your frame of reference, and that's fine.


I did.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 7, 2022)

Warning signs...









						Warnings from Target, Apple, and Microsoft are the start of a pattern that's going to spread, Morgan Stanley says. Here's why the firm says investors should watch out for another market downturn this summer.
					

Morgan Stanley US stock chief Michael Wilson says companies are going to cut their guidance in the next month or so, leading to more pain for stocks.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## tenacious (Jun 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> When Trump took over the party, I left the party and registered Independent...
> In fairness, I doubt that you have read everything I've posted over the years. Is anything I've posted a lie regarding Joe Biden?
> In fairness, under Trump we did not have the Afghan exit disaster; the border was under control, gas & food were 1/2 of what they are now, baby formula was not in short supply, etc.
> Trump did indeed lie but mostly about things like the number of folks who attended his inauguration...BFD
> ...


I didn't realize you had left the republican party. I know you were a long time and proud member... so you couldn't have taken that lightly.

And yes, I agree Trump and Biden have been terrible leaders. On the left you got the liberals running around braying about how the 'noble criminal' is actually the victim.  And on the right... well would it even be possible for a Republican to win on the national stage who isn't willing to lie about how Trump won the election. What a mess things have become.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 8, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> There is an endowment tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_tax
> 
> I don't think these large endowments are super ubiquitous considering how many colleges/unis there are out there:
> 
> ...


Or rather than trusting the government to fix it... we could loosen the bankruptcy laws. 

My bet is if colleges are forced to show the degrees they are selling are worth what's being charged- they will suddenly start figuring out how to bring those costs down themselves.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> It's gross incompetence driven by strict adherence to a misguided narrative founded in emotion and not substance and an administration chosen based on identity and not qualifications.  Harris, Buttigieg, Blinken, Mayorkas, Becerra, Granholm, Austin, Blinken.  Really?  The seven dwarfs could out perform this group.  If you look at their responses to difficult problems their #1 response is to laugh, their #2 response is to say they are doing everything they can and have been working on it for months without saying what they are doing and their #3 response, when all else fails, they gaslight.
> 
> Not all the problems we're having were caused by the Biden administration, but their policies are either excerbating the problem or they do nothing to address them. For some reason, they act like if they ignore a problem it will go away.  In many ways the media is complicit...if they don't report it the problem doesn't exist.  Some of their policies might be OK in certain times, but not in the current times of runaway inflation.  Telling people to deal with high gas prices by buying an electric car may be fine in 2040, but its not feasible in 2022.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree... it's become hard to know where to get your news anymore. I def think the tech giants have become comfortable with the censorship software they use over in China. Now it's to the point that if you are unwilling to pay for your news, then you're getting news that's been filtered.   

I think Hunter should be held accountable, but to me singling out Hunter Biden as especially corrupt is like "handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500" (to quote that old movie Apocalypse Now). Hunter just had the misfortune of also being an idiot and drug addict- so a lot of his shenanigans got recorded on iphone.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 8, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> The research funding is worth it though.  Universities do a lot of good work there.  Research gets funded that otherwise wouldn't in our current economic model.   What's that breakdown of federal funding for U of M?


I think this is a good question. I'd also like to see a breakdown of what sort of research is getting funded?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 8, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I think this is a good question. I'd also like to see a breakdown of what sort of research is getting funded?


Maybe not detailed enough, but this gives you a better idea of where research money is going:



			https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44307.pdf
		


Looks like higher education is a sliver in comparison to the other sectors.


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

A couple small reasons for optimism:









						San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin Recalled by Voters
					

The rejection of the reform-minded D.A. Chesa Boudin is a blow to the progressive prosecutors movement as crime climbs across the U.S.




					www.wsj.com
				












						MAGA candidates fail to oust mainstream Republicans in House primaries
					

Former President Donald Trump's touch didn't extend fully into blue states in a trio of Congressional primaries Tuesday.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> A couple small reasons for optimism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The “reformers” are on notice.


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The “reformers” are on notice.


Hopefully Gascon is next.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 8, 2022)




----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 8, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> On this we can agree. It would be nice if Technical Colleges we viewed more like traditional colleges by HS counselors.
> It's like it's frowned upon.
> 
> 
> ...


Yep we need to promote trade schools a lot more. Some very good paying jobs in those fields. 

Years ago when I was starting my biz I worked at some high end restaurants at night in order to survive while the biz got up and running. 

Almost every single waiter had a bachelors degree. And almost every single one didn't have plans to do anything beyond being a waiter. They all had student debt. I thought to myself why bother going to college when this is what you are going to do.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Hopefully Gascon is next.


Who is that?


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 13877


There is also the non-price inflation of smaller product sizes and fewer services.  That is likely permanent.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 8, 2022)

President Biden


Desert Hound said:


> View attachment 13877


_Spam musubi...?

_


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who is that?











						Recall Gascon - Recall DA George Gascon
					

RECALL D.A. GEORGE GASCON SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. RECALL D.A. GEORGE GASCON SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE … Recall Gascon Read More »




					www.recalldageorgegascon.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 8, 2022)

This is interesting: 









						Study finds widening gap in death rates between US areas that vote for Democratic rather than Republican party
					

Democratic areas saw greater improvements over the past two decades  Findings build on previous evidence that more liberal policies, laws, and regulations may be associated with better health outcomes



					www.eurekalert.org
				




Let me get some popcorn


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> A couple small reasons for optimism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This may be a slippery slope but this is what it’s coming to.








						San Diego mayor to homeless people: leave encampments or face consequences
					

Police arrested three people last week for encroaching on sidewalks




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				



I guy running for city council in SD had as a campaign vow. “Criminalize homeless when they refuse legitimate, productive, heartfelt assistance”


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There use to be a righty on these forums that bragged about dining from dollar menus and how tasty it was. Supersize me? No thanks.


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd bet it's the difference in bacon consumption.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Recall Gascon - Recall DA George Gascon
> 
> 
> RECALL D.A. GEORGE GASCON SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. RECALL D.A. GEORGE GASCON SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE LOS ANGELES. SIGN THE PETITION. SAVE … Recall Gascon Read More »
> ...


Oh LA. I wonder what red areas do about homelessness and crime?


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Oh LA. I wonder what red areas do about homelessness and crime?


More blue than red (I don't care where the solutions come from), Houston is often heralded as the benchmark for addressing the homeless crisis which has cut homelessness in half.  You'd have to Google for specifics but my understanding they've done it with a ban on camping and public/private partnerships with good data and a precise plan.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> More blue than red (I don't care where the solutions come from), Houston is often heralded as the benchmark for addressing the homeless crisis which has cut homelessness in half.  You'd have to Google for specifics but my understanding they've done it with a ban on camping and public/private partnerships with good data and a precise plan.


I have family there. They might be doing well controlling the homeless on the street but they aren’t doing so well against crime.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> More blue than red (I don't care where the solutions come from), Houston is often heralded as the benchmark for addressing the homeless crisis which has cut homelessness in half.  You'd have to Google for specifics but my understanding they've done it with a ban on camping and public/private partnerships with good data and a precise plan.


I found this.








						4 Crime Indicators  —  Are Red or Blue States Better?
					

In comparing the quality of life between Red vs Blue states, I’ll be grouping all 23 indicators into 4 main categories: 4 Crimes Indicators, 4 Social Indicators, 7 Health Indicators 8 Economi…




					appliedsentience.com


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I found this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting but not compelling.  I'm more of a big picture guy and I also think you have to look at policies and potential causation and not party color and correlation.

As far as Houston goes the county DA is another Soros funded DA like Boudin and Gascon so maybe that's a connection to Houston's crime problem.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Interesting but not compelling.  I'm more of a big picture guy and I also think you have to look at policies and potential causation and not party color and correlation.
> 
> As far as Houston goes the county DA is another Soros funded DA like Boudin and Gascon so maybe that's a connection to Houston's crime problem.


You give Soros far more credit than he has earned.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 8, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And there’s this . . .








						The Red State Murder Problem – Third Way
					

Third Way is a center-left think tank that champions modern solutions to the most challenging problems in US public policy, including the economy, climate and energy, national security, social policy, and politics.




					www.thirdway.org


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You give Soros far more credit than he has earned.


You give Trump far more credit than he has earned....


----------



## watfly (Jun 8, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And there’s this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Parse it however you like to get the desired outcome.  Of Forbes 10 most dangerous cities, all 10 are run by Democrat mayors, whereas its safest cities there are a number of Republican mayors.  Again its not the color of the party its the nature of the policies.









						Crime In America: Study Reveals The 10 Most Unsafe Cities (It’s Not Where You Think)
					

A new list ranked the most dangerous cities in the US—and the safest cities in America. The results will surprise you.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 9, 2022)

Is this true, don’t know the San Fran landscape very well?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534383896296562689


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 9, 2022)

Never, under any circumstances,  work for the Clinton's.








						Clinton Advisor Found Hanging From Tree With Shotgun Blast to Chest
					

59-year-old Mark Middleton, prominently known as an advisor to the Clintons, was discovered hanging from a tree with an extension cord around his neck.    Middleton also had a shotgun wound to the chest. His death was




					www.analyzingamerica.org


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I have family there. They might be doing well controlling the homeless on the street but they aren’t doing so well against crime.


In-laws in Katy. They prefer to stay out of Houston.


----------



## espola (Jun 9, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Never, under any circumstances,  work for the Clinton's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see how this has anything to do with Joe Biden.  Maybe you should have posted it in the vaccine thread since that one seems to be acting as the dumpster for miscellaneous posts lately.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 9, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> In-laws in Katy. They prefer to stay out of Houston.


I don’t blame them. The Legacy stadium is amazing.


----------



## watfly (Jun 9, 2022)

I'm going to run afoul of the self appointed moderator, but I thought this was an interesting article.  The author made this observation.
_"To understand just how noteworthy Boudin's defenestration is, please keep in mind that San Francisco has only a tiny number of Republicans.  This fight is about leftists versus liberals."_









						How San Francisco Became a Failed City
					

And how it could recover




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> I'm going to run afoul of the self appointed moderator, but I thought this was an interesting article.  The author made this observation.
> _"To understand just how noteworthy Boudin's defenestration is, please keep in mind that San Francisco has only a tiny number of Republicans.  This fight is about leftists versus liberals."_
> 
> 
> ...


At some point San Francisco has to admit it has a drug problem.  I've heard statistics from various organizations that the issue isn't predominately drugs, but mental health.  I'm not buying it.  They should go after the drug dealers and punish them without compassion.  I haven't lived in SF for over 20 years, but have worked there quite a bit.  It has been a shit show for as long as I can remember.  I've seen things nobody should have to see.  It was like this in the 90s as well.  

Anyway,  this documentary is from the late 90s;


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> At some point San Francisco has to admit it has a drug problem.  I've heard statistics from various organizations that the issue isn't predominately drugs, but mental health.  I'm not buying it.  They should go after the drug dealers and punish them without compassion.  I haven't lived in SF for over 20 years, but have worked there quite a bit.  It has been a shit show for as long as I can remember.  I've seen things nobody should have to see.  It was like this in the 90s as well.
> 
> Anyway,  this documentary is from the late 90s;


My daughter moved from there (SF, Park Merced area) to Osaka Japan, couldn’t be a more drastic difference. Lots of nice places in ‘murica but I haven’t seen a bad place in Japan with the exception of the Fukushima area for obvious reasons.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> I'm going to run afoul of the self appointed moderator, but I thought this was an interesting article.  The author made this observation.
> _"To understand just how noteworthy Boudin's defenestration is, please keep in mind that San Francisco has only a tiny number of Republicans.  This fight is about leftists versus liberals."_
> 
> 
> ...


San Fran is a pit, but honestly I am more concerned in the deep South around some of the white folk down there. In both places you just have know when and where to go, and where not to.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 9, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> My daughter moved from there (SF, Park Merced area) to Osaka Japan, couldn’t be a more drastic difference. Lots of nice places in ‘murica but I haven’t seen a bad place in Japan with the exception of the Fukushima area for obvious reasons.


Park Merced is one of the nicer areas too!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Park Merced is one of the nicer areas too!


Her area was fine but the closer you got to the city . . .


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> At some point San Francisco has to admit it has a drug problem.  I've heard statistics from various organizations that the issue isn't predominately drugs, but mental health.  I'm not buying it.  They should go after the drug dealers and punish them without compassion.  I haven't lived in SF for over 20 years, but have worked there quite a bit.  It has been a shit show for as long as I can remember.  I've seen things nobody should have to see.  It was like this in the 90s as well.
> 
> Anyway,  this documentary is from the late 90s;


My daughter went to a job fair just before graduation.  Two places offered her teaching jobs on the spot. Some remote location in Alaska and... San Francisco. SFUSD has a major problem on their hands as older teachers are retiring and no one else can afford to live there.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 9, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> My daughter went to a job fair just before graduation.  Two places offered her teaching jobs on the spot. Some remote location in Alaska and... San Francisco. SFUSD has a major problem on their hands as older teachers are retiring and no one else can afford to live there.


Left leaning NIMBYs are an interesting segment of society.  They must live with constant conflict in their heads.  At least right leaning NIMBYs are consistent in their assholery.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 10, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Left leaning NIMBYs are an interesting segment of society.  They must live with constant conflict in their heads.  At least right leaning NIMBYs are consistent in their assholery.


Yes I understand why to the progressive minded that building restrictions are seen as limiting. But my take on urban sprawl is a bit different in that I see bulldozing and building on all the green and open spaces as being a short term solution that isn't in the interest of the vast majority of the states current residents. And by that I simply mean all those new building will soon fill up with people and ten years down the road California will end up only end be even more populated while still being overpriced... but with less open and public spaces for people to enjoy; from the perspective of people currently living in the state.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Yes I understand why to the progressive minded that building restrictions are seen as limiting. But my take on urban sprawl is a bit different in that I see bulldozing and building on all the green and open spaces as being a short term solution that isn't in the interest of the vast majority of the states current residents. And by that I simply mean all those new building will soon fill up with people and ten years down the road California will end up only end be even more populated while still being overpriced... but with less open and public spaces for people to enjoy; from the perspective of people currently living in the state.


Water...what about water?


----------



## tenacious (Jun 10, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Water...what about water?


That's a great question. What do you want to bet the answer involves raising taxes?


----------



## espola (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> That's a great question. What do you want to bet the answer involves raising taxes?


Water supplies are paid for by selling water to customers.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

These customers are willing and able to pay for water and have done so for years...


*California tells San Francisco, Valley farmers to halt water diversions as drought worsens*

BY DALE KASLER
UPDATED JUNE 08, 2022 2:57 PM
State regulators have ordered the city of San Francisco and scores of San Joaquin Valley farmers to stop pulling water from Valley rivers, the latest sign of worsening conditions in California’s drought. The water-rights “curtailment orders” issued by the State Water Resources Control Board affect San Francisco’s ability to pull water from the Tuolumne River, one of its most important water sources. Others affected include the Modesto and Turlock irrigation districts, which deliver water to farmers and residents in the northern San Joaquin Valley from the Tuolumne. All told, 212 public water systems are affected by the move. Erik Ekdahl, the state board’s deputy director, said Tuesday the move amounts to “significant, very deep cuts and curtailments.”

Read more at: https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/water-and-drought/article262302232.html#storylink=cpy


----------



## tenacious (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Water supplies are paid for by selling water to customers.


Fair enough... I should have avoided the word tax and said cost. 

But my underlaying premise that progressives are once again asking middle class Californians to pay additional (and what amounts to unavoidable) costs; in exchange for what amounts to a lower standard- of living is still valid.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Fair enough... I should have avoided the word tax and said cost.
> 
> But my underlaying premise that progressives are once again asking middle class Californians to pay additional (and what amounts to unavoidable) costs; in exchange for what amounts to a lower standard- of living is still valid.


Ah the former Californian scorn. West Virginia  pays more for water as does Connecticut, New Jersey is about the same.


			Water Prices by State 2023


----------



## tenacious (Jun 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ah the former Californian scorn. West Virginia  pays more for water as does Connecticut, New Jersey is about the same.
> 
> 
> Water Prices by State 2023


West Virginia you say!!!!! Well that changes everything. Obviously CA voters will be fine with paying more once they hear that.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> West Virginia you say!!!!! Well that changes everything. Obviously CA voters will be fine with paying more once they hear that.


Daffy ignores that those states have plenty of water, we live in a desert here in California...


----------



## espola (Jun 10, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Daffy ignores that those states have plenty of water, we live in a desert here in California...


West Virginia and Connecticut have plenty of water, so why are their rates higher?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> West Virginia you say!!!!! Well that changes everything. Obviously CA voters will be fine with paying more once they hear that.


For comparison sake jethro.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> West Virginia and Connecticut have plenty of water, so why are their rates higher?


I often wonder at LE’s complete lack of awareness.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> West Virginia and Connecticut have plenty of water, so why are their rates higher?


Point being, even if rates were higher in California, we don't have the water.
I don't give a fuck about why rates are higher in WV and Connecticut...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I often wonder at LE’s complete lack of awareness.


Projecting once again....


----------



## espola (Jun 10, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Point being, even if rates were higher in California, we don't have the water.
> I don't give a fuck about why rates are higher in WV and Connecticut...


If water rates were about double what they are now, desalinating sea water would make economic sense with current technology.


----------



## espola (Jun 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I often wonder at LE’s complete lack of awareness.


Profane insults from him to follow -- 3, 2, 1...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> If water rates were about double what they are now, desalinating sea water would make economic sense with current technology.


If the drought continues they will have to turn to desalination...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Profane insults from him to follow -- 3, 2, 1...


Nice of you to stick up for your boy...
Profound insults are what is usually thrown at that pinhead


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Nice of you to stick up for your boy...
> Profound insults are what is usually thrown at that pinhead


I do have a knack for hitting the target when it comes to partisan hacks like you who haven’t a clue. Seems long ago I struck a nerve on you that you still can’t shake.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Yes I understand why to the progressive minded that building restrictions are seen as limiting. But my take on urban sprawl is a bit different in that I see bulldozing and building on all the green and open spaces as being a short term solution that isn't in the interest of the vast majority of the states current residents. And by that I simply mean all those new building will soon fill up with people and ten years down the road California will end up only end be even more populated while still being overpriced... but with less open and public spaces for people to enjoy; from the perspective of people currently living in the state.


Case in point. I noticed today that the golf course ( I think its been abandoned) off of the 15 around Penesquitos Dr is being graded.  My guess..more homes.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> West Virginia and Connecticut have plenty of water, so why are their rates higher?


Do you think they employ the same amount of wotkers at the WV municipal water district as San Diego does?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Case in point. I noticed today that the golf course ( I think its been abandoned) off of the 15 around Penesquitos Dr is being graded.  My guess..more homes.


The course was closed by the owners with no plans for future use of the site. Troon had taken over, raised the fees, made some nice changes but not enough to legitimize the rate hikes. The number of rounds dipped, the owner made a business decision. Those I know that worked there all found other jobs in the industry. Shame any course closes. San Luis Rey Downs hurt as did Stoneridge in Poway.


----------



## espola (Jun 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The course was closed by the owners with no plans for future use of the site. Troon had taken over, raised the fees, made some nice changes but not enough to legitimize the rate hikes. The number of rounds dipped, the owner made a business decision. Those I know that worked there all found other jobs in the industry. Shame any course closes. San Luis Rey Downs hurt as did Stoneridge in Poway.


Escondido Country Club closed a few years back and became housing.  The same developer bought Stoneridge in Poway and lost a public vote to convert part of it to senior housing -- I think it is just going wild now.  The Oaks North course that we lived next to for a few years is still alive helped to some degree by the fact that most of their irrigation water comes from wells on the course (they use city water for the greens).


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Escondido Country Club closed a few years back and became housing.  The same developer bought Stoneridge in Poway and lost a public vote to convert part of it to senior housing -- I think it is just going wild now.  The Oaks North course that we lived next to for a few years is still alive helped to some degree by the fact that most of their irrigation water comes from wells on the course (they use city water for the greens).


Escondido was a boring tract and never very well maintained.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I do have a knack for hitting the target when it comes to partisan hacks like you who haven’t a clue. Seems long ago I struck a nerve on you that you still can’t shake.


You're a delusional pin headed fool...you erased all doubt years ago. You really should stop posting.
What a toad...you do know the difference between profound and profane? Probably not....


----------



## tenacious (Jun 11, 2022)

This probably belongs in one of the Covid threads... but since this thread has gone off the rails into name calling I'll put it here in here to change the topic. 









						Why America Doesn't Trust the CDC
					

The Biden administration promised to listen to the scientists. But the truth is, it only seems to listen to the ones who say what it wants to hear.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 11, 2022)

Inflation, stagflation and rising CPI. I'm happy all our kiddos are grown and we are not driving all over So Cal for games. I wonder if clubs will be raising their dues as well..









						What Wall Street is saying about May's shocking inflation report
					

Inflation rose 8.6% in May, marking the quickest pace of price increases across the U.S. economy in 40 years. Here's what Wall Street is saying about Friday's data.




					finance.yahoo.com
				












						Inflation rose 8.6% in May, highest since 1981
					

The consumer price index for May was expected to increase 8.3% from a year ago, according to Dow Jones estimates.




					www.cnbc.com
				



Thanks Joe. Still waiting on that plan of yours...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 11, 2022)

Trump demanded that Saudi Arabia cut back production back in 2020. According to Trump, he worked out a deal where OPEC producers would all agree to reduce their output. The reason we now have high oil prices is that they have not returned their production to pre-pandemic levels. Hey, by the media’s standards of what makes a politician responsible for an event in the world, this is practically airtight.

It’s more than a bit bizarre that Donald Trump literally boasted about getting oil producers to cut production, but somehow President Biden is held responsible for high gas prices.









						High Gas Prices Are Donald Trump's Fault
					

According to Trump, he worked out a deal where OPEC producers would all agree to reduce their output.




					cepr.net


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trump demanded that Saudi Arabia cut back production back in 2020. According to Trump, he worked out a deal where OPEC producers would all agree to reduce their output. The reason we now have high oil prices is that they have not returned their production to pre-pandemic levels. Hey, by the media’s standards of what makes a politician responsible for an event in the world, this is practically airtight.
> 
> It’s more than a bit bizarre that Donald Trump literally boasted about getting oil producers to cut production, but somehow President Biden is held responsible for high gas prices.
> 
> ...


Well here it is 2022...
What has President Biden done to get oil production back up to pre-pandemic levels?
Has he met with American Oil Producers?
Has he walked back the "executive orders that prioritize climate change across all levels of government and put the U.S. on track to curb planet-warming carbon emissions. ?His orders direct the secretary of the Interior Department to halt new oil and natural gas leases on public lands and waters, and begin a thorough review of existing permits for fossil fuel development. The series of actions kick off the president’s agenda to reduce the country’s emissions and establish stricter targets under the Paris climate accord."


----------



## watfly (Jun 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trump demanded that Saudi Arabia cut back production back in 2020. According to Trump, he worked out a deal where OPEC producers would all agree to reduce their output. The reason we now have high oil prices is that they have not returned their production to pre-pandemic levels. Hey, by the media’s standards of what makes a politician responsible for an event in the world, this is practically airtight.
> 
> It’s more than a bit bizarre that Donald Trump literally boasted about getting oil producers to cut production, but somehow President Biden is held responsible for high gas prices.
> 
> ...


Do you have idea why production had to be reduced at that time? or are you just regurgitating leftist propaganda?

Let me fill you in with the facts.  Oil prices had collapsed due to a massive oversupply and actually reached negative prices.  In order to protect the US oil industry and the US economy supply had to be restrained.  The ability to store the oil was at risk if production wasn't reduced.   Basic economics here, supply out paces demand, prices go down so you reduce supply to manage the market prices.  This is what Trump did.  Of course when demand out paces supply, prices rise and then you need to increase supply...this is what Biden didn't do.  He did the opposite.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> Do you have idea why production had to be reduced at that time? or are you just regurgitating leftist propaganda?
> 
> Let me fill you in with the facts.  Oil prices had collapsed due to a massive oversupply and actually reached negative prices.  In order to protect the US oil industry and the US economy supply had to be restrained.  The ability to store the oil was at risk if production wasn't reduced.   Basic economics here, supply out paces demand, prices go down so you reduce supply to manage the market prices.  This is what Trump did.  Of course when demand out paces supply, prices rise and then you need to increase supply...this is what Biden didn't do.  He did the opposite.


Funny when you try to state the obvious, very trump-like, but fail.


----------



## espola (Jun 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> Do you have idea why production had to be reduced at that time? or are you just regurgitating leftist propaganda?
> 
> Let me fill you in with the facts.  Oil prices had collapsed due to a massive oversupply and actually reached negative prices.  In order to protect the US oil industry and the US economy supply had to be restrained.  The ability to store the oil was at risk if production wasn't reduced.   Basic economics here, supply out paces demand, prices go down so you reduce supply to manage the market prices.  This is what Trump did.  Of course when demand out paces supply, prices rise and then you need to increase supply...this is what Biden didn't do.  He did the opposite.


What do you mean by "the opposite"?


----------



## watfly (Jun 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Unfortunately for us, its not that obvious to Biden.


----------



## espola (Jun 11, 2022)

Have you always had this problem with the "reply" button?


----------



## watfly (Jun 11, 2022)

Oops, didnt mean to put words in your mouth.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 11, 2022)

Political News and Conservative Analysis About Congress, the President, and the Federal Government
					

<br/><br/>




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




*With inflation at historic highs, Biden is still trying to make it worse*

All he had to do was end COVID lockdowns and let the economy recover on its own. Instead, President Joe Biden spent trillions trying to “transform” the country, and now, everyone, especially the nation's poorest, is paying the price for his hubris. 

The Labor Department reported Friday that inflation rose to 8.6% in the 12 months ending in May, its highest level in more than 40 years. Virtually no sector of the economy was left untouched. Gas is up 48.7% from a year ago, electricity 12%, groceries 11.9%, and rent 5.9%. 

These price increases are not, as White House chief of staff Ron Klain once claimed, “high-class problems.” These are not discretionary spending items. Working-class families can skip vacations, but they still need gas to get to work. They need electricity to heat and cool their homes. They need to eat. They need a roof over their heads.

Democrats may point out that unemployment is low, and that is a good thing. Wages are also rising, and that is good too. But, unfortunately, prices are rising faster than wages, leaving working people in a worse economic position overall. Under Biden’s leadership, the average person has seen his or her real wages fall by 3% over the past year.

The cause of this record-high inflation is no secret: Biden and his big spending policies are clearly to blame.

*Former President Barack Obama’s director of the National Economic Council Larry Summers warned right from the start that Biden’s $2 trillion COVID stimulus was way too large and would cause inflation. But Democrats ignored him and passed it anyway without a single Republican vote.*

Then, Democrats tried to make it worse!

Even with inflation already rising, House Democrats passed another $2.2 trillion spending bill last November that, once all the budgetary gimmicks were removed, would really have dumped another $5 trillion into the economy. Fortunately for those working-class families most vulnerable to inflation, Sens. Joe Manchin (D-WV) and Kyrsten Sinema (D-AZ) refused to go along, and Biden’s so-called Build Back Better agenda died in the Senate.

But Biden still refuses to stop pouring spending fuel on the inflation fire. His administration is reportedly scheduled to cancel $10,000 worth of higher education debt for millions of overwhelmingly wealthy borrowers later this summer. Not only would this debt amnesty be no different than sending millions of $10,000 checks into an economy already overheating with demand, but these checks would also disproportionately go to the wealthiest families. According to data compiled by the Brookings Institution, the top 40% of income earners owe over two-thirds of all student debt, and the richest 20% owe 35%.

And that's all on the demand side. Biden also has hobbled the supply side of the economy by waging war, in numerous ways, against domestic fossil fuel production. That is why inflation in the energy sector is so particularly high — and, of course, high fuel costs reverberate throughout the entire pricing system.

Democrats are currently trying to distract voters from their very real inflation pain with prime-time hearings into a riot that happened almost a year and a half ago. Judging by the most recent polls, voters will not be distracted. Biden’s approval ratings continue to fall, and there is every indication that Democrats will be punished at the polls this November. One can only hope that Biden will change course after that.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 12, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny when you try to state the obvious, very trump-like, but fail.


Really? Do you recall the negative price per barrel or where you just not aware...again? Trying to cherry pick information to control the narrative..again.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 12, 2022)

Nicaragua gives permission for Russian troops to enter country
					

A spokesperson for Russia's foreign ministry called it a "routine — twice a year — procedure."




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Really? Do you recall the negative price per barrel or where you just not aware...again? Trying to cherry pick information to control the narrative..again.


Funny how you take it personal about your trump. The key part of it is in opec’s lap not your dear donald’s.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Nicaragua gives permission for Russian troops to enter country
> 
> 
> A spokesperson for Russia's foreign ministry called it a "routine — twice a year — procedure."
> ...


That’s not good . . . and some wonder why the people there flee to the USA.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how you take it personal about your trump. The key part of it is in opec’s lap not your dear donald’s.


Do you not find it ironic that you're the only one who seems to mention Trump.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Speaking of irony.  The image of the live insurrection hearing with the Dow crawl showing the Dow down over 600.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Do you not find it ironic that you're the only one who seems to mention Trump.


You mean the leader of the Republican Party?
The designer of the GOP litmus tests?
Your presidential nominee?
The main influence on who is cult votes for or against?
The one most Republicans are most wanting to emulate and fear the most?
Yeah he’s of no consequence whatsoever.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You mean the leader of the Republican Party?
> The designer of the GOP litmus tests?
> Your presidential nominee?
> The main influence on who is cult votes for or against?
> ...


So that's a NO that you don't see the irony.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> So that's a NO that you don't see the irony.


I’m pretty sure you don’t know the meaning of that word.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> So that's a NO that you don't see the irony.


You're asking an awful lot from Daffy....


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You're asking an awful lot from Daffy....


Well he sees everything through blue tinted glasses, so he assumes everyone on the "other-side" sees through red tinted glasses and follows a strict narrative like he does.  Most people are purple.  I wish Trump didn't have as big of influence on the Republican party as he does and to some extent I think the insurrection hearings are emboldening him, although that's probably a moot point at the end of the day.  While I do find the hearings mildly interesting they strike me as "fiddling while Rome burns".  If the Dems want to win then put up a qualified candidate, instead of just trying to disqualify Trump (although I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if he was disqualified).  Right now the Dems options for a presidential candidate are looking very poor.  At least some Dems are smart enough to realize Biden isn't a viable candidate. 









						Top Democrats say Biden should NOT run for re-election in 2024
					

Nearly all 50 Democratic officials interviewed by the New York Times feared a Biden re-election campaign will fail against Republicans, who are poised to make sweeping victories in the midterms.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Well he sees everything through blue tinted glasses, so he assumes everyone on the "other-side" sees through red tinted glasses and follows a strict narrative like he does.  Most people are purple.  I wish Trump didn't have as big of influence on the Republican party as he does and to some extent I think the insurrection hearings are emboldening him, although that's probably a moot point at the end of the day.  While I do find the hearings mildly interesting they strike me as "fiddling while Rome burns".  If the Dems want to win then put up a qualified candidate, instead of just trying to disqualify Trump (although I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if he was disqualified).  Right now the Dems options for a presidential candidate are looking very poor.  At least some Dems are smart enough to realize Biden isn't a viable candidate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you say I’m strictly partisan then you go on to show you view the hearings in a strictly partisan way. Isn’t that the definition of irony? 
Seems you feel nothing can be learned, nothing can be changed and that the only purpose is to make the donald look bad?
How many people have been prosecuted so far?


----------



## Happened again (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So, you say I’m strictly partisan then you go on to show you view the hearings in a strictly partisan way. Isn’t that the definition of irony?
> Seems you feel nothing can be learned, nothing can be changed and that the only purpose is to make the donald look bad?
> How many people have been prosecuted so far?


wait, the hearings aren't partisan?  How many people have been prosecuted?  Great question.  I suppose we'll let congress decide that?  Instead of screaming at clouds, you should research the DOJ and it's assocaited offices in NY and GA to determine where they stand with the various patchwork of pending litigation. Instead overpaid public servants are auditioning for America's got talent.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So, you say I’m strictly partisan then you go on to show you view the hearings in a strictly partisan way. Isn’t that the definition of irony?
> Seems you feel nothing can be learned, nothing can be changed and that the only purpose is to make the donald look bad?
> How many people have been prosecuted so far?


So me being against Trump who you claim is the leader of the Republican Party and wishing our Congress would spend more time battling inflation and not on primetime grandstanding makes me a partisan. Got it.

Being against Biden isn't partisan, its common sense.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Happened again said:


> wait, the hearings aren't partisan?  How many people have been prosecuted?  Great question.  I suppose we'll let congress decide that?  Instead of screaming at clouds, you should research the DOJ and it's assocaited offices in NY and GA to determine where they stand with the various patchwork of pending litigation. Instead overpaid public servants are auditioning for America's got talent.


More partisan gibberish. Do you care about the Constitution? Law and order? Democracy? Or is it all a big joke compared to keeping trump in power? Maybe you aren’t actually partisan (although trump loving is now the Republican parties only message), maybe you are just a 110% trump lover, a one man kinda guy, a dear leader bent knee, kiss the ring type. You claim you aren’t but at the same time can’t separate yourself from the rhetoric. Don’t fret many former conservatives/republicans who fell for don’s con find themselves in the same quandary.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> So me being against Trump who you claim is the leader of the Republican Party and wishing our Congress would spend more time battling inflation and not on primetime grandstanding makes me a partisan. Got it.
> 
> Being against Biden isn't partisan, its common sense.


What do suggest congress can do? And should enemies of the state be given a get out of jail free card because you think congress should be doing other things? To me it seems you just want us all to forget about the whole thing so trump has a better chance to be re-elected? How Q/infowars, trump is our savior and he or those doing his bidding can do no wrong of you! Lol! You people are thick as a brick! I see you, what you are trying is quite obvious.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

WHO"S ENFORCING ?
*18 U.S. Code § 1507 - Picketing or parading*

Whoever, with the intent of interfering with, obstructing, or impeding the administration of justice, or with the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge of his duty, pickets or parades in or near a building housing a court of the United States, or in or near a building or residence occupied or used by such judge, juror, witness, or court officer, or with such intent uses any sound-truck or similar device or resorts to any other demonstration in or near any such building or residence, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
Nothing in this section shall interfere with or prevent the exercise by any court of the United States of its power to punish for contempt.
(Added Sept. 23, 1950, ch. 1024, title I, § 31(a), 64 Stat. 1018; amended Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(K), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do suggest congress can do?


Off the top of my head...suspend the Federal gas tax which would also put pressure on states to follow suit.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Off the top of my head...suspend the Federal gas tax which would also put pressure on states to follow suit.


That would be under $0.20 per gallon, so it wouldn't move the needle (sic) much and I assume that's something Congress would have to approve, so chances are it wouldn't happen, as they wouldn't agree on what tomorrow is called, never mind do something collectively to benefit the nation.

IMV, we're in the land of self-professing prophecies, i.e. the Fed (inflation is their job) are cranking up rates, so the expectation is that it will impact on businesses and investment, so a selloff has started in anticipation which is feeding itself. 

Neither inflation or oil prices are going to come down in the short term, and there's little to nothing that anyone can do to bring either down quickly without risking crashing the economy or screams of socialism.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

whatithink said:


> That would be under $0.20 per gallon, so it wouldn't move the needle (sic) much and I assume that's something Congress would have to approve, so chances are it wouldn't happen, as they wouldn't agree on what tomorrow is called, never mind do something collectively to benefit the nation.
> 
> IMV, we're in the land of self-professing prophecies, i.e. the Fed (inflation is their job) are cranking up rates, so the expectation is that it will impact on businesses and investment, so a selloff has started in anticipation which is feeding itself.
> 
> Neither inflation or oil prices are going to come down in the short term, and there's little to nothing that anyone can do to bring either down quickly without risking crashing the economy or screams of socialism.


Doing nothing is not a solution.  I don't profess to be an expert but we can also reverse Biden's restrictions on drilling and restore Keystone . Oil trades on futures and that would have some impact.  Yes we can't bring it down quickly, but we need to chip away at it.  Right now the problem isn't bringing it down, its stopping out of control inflation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe gas has gone up everyday something like 39 out of the last 40 days and there is no end in sight.  The longer you do nothing the longer the problem will exist.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Doing nothing is not a solution.  I don't profess to be an expert but we can also reverse Biden's restrictions on drilling and restore Keystone . Oil trades on futures and that would have some impact.  Yes we can't bring it down quickly, but we need to chip away at it.  Right now the problem isn't bringing it down, its stopping out of control inflation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe gas has gone up everyday something like 39 out of the last 40 days and there is no end in sight.  The longer you do nothing the longer the problem will exist.


Sure, my point is only that there is no short term fix on either inflation or gas. The Fed will put up rates this week, possibly a large increase which the market is reacting to (in advance). They should. They also need to balance not crashing the economy.

On oil, there's no incentive for oil companies to drill because they are making bank with current prices. Basically, you are asking them to increase production to reduce revenue/profit per unit, which seems a bit weird. The lag time is also long and you'd have to increase refinery capacity etc. The full impact of the Russian sanctions may not have hit yet either wrt the price of oil - which ironically benefits Putin as he doesn't have to export as much to get the same $ value back and while he still has China/India as export markets, he's not impacted as much (and doesn't give a crap anyway it appears), but I digress.

I read today that basically oil production was at 100m barrels a day pre-pandemic. It reduced during the shutdown and is still 1-2M barrels a day short of the 100m, and that's part of the fundamental problem and price adjustment (supply/demand). Opec or the Saudi's could fix that in a week, but they have zero incentive to do that with the price of oil at its current level. The major western oil companies have zero incentive to fix it either.

It's just capitalism.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

*S&P 500 Falls Into Bear Market: Live Updates*
Stocks dropped around the world, investors dumped government bonds and cryptocurrencies crashed as the U.S. stock market fell more than 20 percent from its January high.









						S&P 500 Falls Into Bear Market
					

Stocks dropped around the world, investors dumped government bonds, and cryptocurrencies crashed as the U.S. stock market fell more than 20 percent from its January high.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Sure, my point is only that there is no short term fix on either inflation or gas. The Fed will put up rates this week, possibly a large increase which the market is reacting to (in advance). They should. They also need to balance not crashing the economy.
> 
> On oil, there's no incentive for oil companies to drill because they are making bank with current prices. Basically, you are asking them to increase production to reduce revenue/profit per unit, which seems a bit weird. The lag time is also long and you'd have to increase refinery capacity etc. The full impact of the Russian sanctions may not have hit yet either wrt the price of oil - which ironically benefits Putin as he doesn't have to export as much to get the same $ value back and while he still has China/India as export markets, he's not impacted as much (and doesn't give a crap anyway it appears), but I digress.
> 
> ...


I'm not opposed to calling the oil companies out on the carpet, but I will concede that it might not get much Republican support.


----------



## Happened again (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> More partisan gibberish. Do you care about the Constitution? Law and order? Democracy? Or is it all a big joke compared to keeping trump in power? Maybe you aren’t actually partisan (although trump loving is now the Republican parties only message), maybe you are just a 110% trump lover, a one man kinda guy, a dear leader bent knee, kiss the ring type. You claim you aren’t but at the same time can’t separate yourself from the rhetoric. Don’t fret many former conservatives/republicans who fell for don’s con find themselves in the same quandary.


you are a crack up.  comprehension just isn't in your wheelhouse. Please point out in my "rhetoric"were I rely on partisan talking points to discuss my point?  Isn't there on going litigation in multiple states against trump?  Are there party appointed repbulicans on the JAN  6 committe?  Is the committee bi-partisan in the traditional sense?

It goes completely over your head that when you attack someone over your percieved perception of their politics, that they are likely centrists and/or indpedendents.  Your TDS is terminal. 

as my kids would say...bruh..


----------



## espola (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Doing nothing is not a solution.  I don't profess to be an expert but we can also reverse Biden's restrictions on drilling and restore Keystone . Oil trades on futures and that would have some impact.  Yes we can't bring it down quickly, but we need to chip away at it.  Right now the problem isn't bringing it down, its stopping out of control inflation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe gas has gone up everyday something like 39 out of the last 40 days and there is no end in sight.  The longer you do nothing the longer the problem will exist.


"...restore Keystone..."  That's pretty funny.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

espola said:


> "...restore Keystone..."  That's pretty funny.


This is funny....
*Pelosi says drag is 'what America is all about' on RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars*
by Julia Johnson, Trending News Editor 
 | June 10, 2022 06:13 PM








						Pelosi says drag is 'what America is all about' on RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars
					

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) made a special Pride Month appearance on RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars in which she said drag is "what America is all about."




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## espola (Jun 13, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> This is funny....
> *Pelosi says drag is 'what America is all about' on RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars*
> by Julia Johnson, Trending News Editor
> | June 10, 2022 06:13 PM
> ...


Is that the problem that is bothering you today?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

espola said:


> Is that the problem that is bothering you today?


A good laugh is never a problem...have another glass of wine Magoo and relax...


----------



## Happened again (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> What do suggest congress can do? And should enemies of the state be given a get out of jail free card because you think congress should be doing other things? To me it seems you just want us all to forget about the whole thing so trump has a better chance to be re-elected? How Q/infowars, trump is our savior and he or those doing his bidding can do no wrong of you! Lol! You people are thick as a brick! I see you, what you are trying is quite obvious.


Is the DOJ currently conducting an investigation into JAN 6?  What other pending civil and criminal cases are there involving trump and associates?  What exactly is this fluffy committee supposed to accomplish beyond getting you alll lathered up and excited?

High-profile hearings tend to be choreographed affairs, presenting a tightly woven narrative to the public.  In this case, there is as much blame on the republicans as the democrats.  It's the republicans own fault for not having anyone of substance on the committee.  At the end of the day, this is a show for the twitterati and an attempt to stifle or minimize real issues that matter to most americans leading up to the next elections.  Nothing else has helped the democrats, maybe show and tell will help them.  Unlikely though, as people pull up to the gas pump and place blame on why their bank accounts are suffering from the procurement of daily essentials.  it's not trumpy's fault for high gas prices -the buck stops with the current administration.  trumpy gas prices were pretty good.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Off the top of my head...suspend the Federal gas tax which would also put pressure on states to follow suit.


How about suspend the tax breaks and subsidies for big oil, the wealthy and large corporations.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Happened again said:


> you are a crack up.  comprehension just isn't in your wheelhouse. Please point out in my "rhetoric"were I rely on partisan talking points to discuss my point?  Isn't there on going litigation in multiple states against trump?  Are there party appointed repbulicans on the JAN  6 committe?  Is the committee bi-partisan in the traditional sense?
> 
> It goes completely over your head that when you attack someone over your percieved perception of their politics, that they are likely centrists and/or indpedendents.  Your TDS is terminal.
> 
> as my kids would say...bruh..


You did right there, lol!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Is the DOJ currently conducting an investigation into JAN 6?  What other pending civil and criminal cases are there involving trump and associates?  What exactly is this fluffy committee supposed to accomplish beyond getting you alll lathered up and excited?
> 
> High-profile hearings tend to be choreographed affairs, presenting a tightly woven narrative to the public.  In this case, there is as much blame on the republicans as the democrats.  It's the republicans own fault for not having anyone of substance on the committee.  At the end of the day, this is a show for the twitterati and an attempt to stifle or minimize real issues that matter to most americans leading up to the next elections.  Nothing else has helped the democrats, maybe show and tell will help them.  Unlikely though, as people pull up to the gas pump and place blame on why their bank accounts are suffering from the procurement of daily essentials.  it's not trumpy's fault for high gas prices -the buck stops with the current administration.  trumpy gas prices were pretty good.


I see the problem now you read right past me and then assign an opinion you can attack. That and your self awareness is less than zero Julian.


----------



## watfly (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> How about suspend the tax breaks and subsidies for big oil, the wealthy and large corporations.


Just FYI in case this wasnt common knowledge.


			Redirect Notice


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You mean the leader of the Republican Party?
> The designer of the GOP litmus tests?
> Your presidential nominee?
> The main influence on who is cult votes for or against?
> ...


again, do you have any idea what happened in the GA primary in May . Do you know how Trumps most hated republican did ?


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> More partisan gibberish. Do you care about the Constitution? Law and order? Democracy? Or is it all a big joke compared to keeping trump in power? Maybe you aren’t actually partisan (although trump loving is now the Republican parties only message), maybe you are just a 110% trump lover, a one man kinda guy, a dear leader bent knee, kiss the ring type. You claim you aren’t but at the same time can’t separate yourself from the rhetoric. Don’t fret many former conservatives/republicans who fell for don’s con find themselves in the same quandary.


this is just desperation at this point


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 13, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> A good laugh is never a problem...have another glass of wine Magoo and relax...


shhh , they are saving democracy you see


----------



## Happened again (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I see the problem now you read right past me and then assign an opinion you can attack. That and your self awareness is less than zero Julian.


I have no idea what you are trying to say.  Let's just chalk this up to failure to launch.


----------



## Happened again (Jun 13, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You did right there, lol!


This is your reply? Let me ask in more simpler terms.   Are there existing cases against trumpy and his cronies?  In your opinion, will the JAN 6  hearings nudge the DOJ to become more serious about investigating trump and co?  Does the committe think it's an unbiased entity doing the work of the people?  Do you think anyone will test positive for covid?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

Happened again said:


> This is your reply? Let me ask in more simpler terms.   Are there existing cases against trumpy and his cronies?  In your opinion, will the JAN 6  hearings nudge the DOJ to become more serious about investigating trump and co?  Does the committe think it's an unbiased entity doing the work of the people?  Do you think anyone will test positive for covid?


All you've done is confuse him.....
NOTE: See Daffy on the pond


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Happened again said:


> This is your reply? Let me ask in more simpler terms.   Are there existing cases against trumpy and his cronies?  In your opinion, will the JAN 6  hearings nudge the DOJ to become more serious about investigating trump and co?  Does the committe think it's an unbiased entity doing the work of the people?  Do you think anyone will test positive for covid?


You are triggered and obsessed.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 13, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> All you've done is confuse him.....
> NOTE: See Daffy on the pond


Oh there you are you poor thing. Don’t forget to grease your wheels.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

Projection, *the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds*.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> I'm not opposed to calling the oil companies out on the carpet, but I will concede that it might not get much Republican support.


Obviously not, and screams of socialism. Unfortunately, there's not a lot governments (D or R) can do wrt inflation and the price of oil at the moment. That's zero comfort to those most impacted, so the pols will scream sound bites and blame the other side and hope something sticks. The Ds get to own this as they are in charge.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 13, 2022)

watfly said:


> Just FYI in case this wasnt common knowledge.
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


I took it that he was referring to the billions in tax breaks/benefits that the oil industry is being provided with by our government annually, i.e. remove those given the fact that they are making record profits. One of the European oil giants basically said on an earnings call that they had so much money, they couldn't even invest it (in their business), basically they didn't know what to do with all the extra cash they had. They had invested as much as they could and still had buckets left. 

Again, its capitalism at work, they just happen to be making bank, not due to any extraordinary business skills etc that they have, but due to a variety of geopolitical occurrences that have driven the markets to pump the price up despite the fact that there really isn't a fundamental supply issue, albeit there is a slight shortfall but that could be plugged (given its relative size). To put it another way, if the price per barrel was $50, then the oil producers would be providing 100M barrels a day and more if they could, but at $120 they have no incentive to do anything.

Interesting (to me)

_"I'd say it's more in the $70 range than it is in the $120 range," Morse told Bloomberg. "If you look at the fair value for oil, look at the flowing curve. It's exaggerated."

On Wednesday, oil prices continued to rise with the reopening of China’s key financial hub, Shanghai, after two months of lockdowns that had chipped away at fuel demand.

At the same time, more in line with Citi’s $70 oil valuation based on demand, the OPEC+ Joint Technical Committee (JTC) in a Wednesday meeting reduced its global oil demand forecast for 2022 by 200,000 bpd, now expecting oil demand growth to be 3.4 million bpd. This is the second month in a row OPEC has downwardly revised its oil demand growth projections.

Based on these demand projections, when OPEC+ meets on Thursday, it is unlikely to raise its production quotas. _

Citi: Oil Is Overvalued By $50 Per Barrel | OilPrice.com


----------



## espola (Jun 13, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Projection, *the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds*.


Good for you.  The first step in solving your problems is to admit that you have them.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 13, 2022)

espola said:


> Good for you.  The first step in solving your problems is to admit that you have them.


Picking on Daffy is like picking an itchy scab...
Attempting to defend your boy is admirable. Good for you Magoo.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 14, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Picking on Daffy is like picking an itchy scab...
> Attempting to defend your boy is admirable. Good for you Magoo.


Good for you, now you have admitted it out loud. It’s called self help and you are on your way. Good luck!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 14, 2022)

watfly said:


> Just FYI in case this wasnt common knowledge.
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


More brain dead lack of awareness or is it a comprehension issue.


Happened again said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say.  Let's just chalk this up to failure to launch.


And more of the same.
Read, comprehend, read again if need be.


----------



## Happened again (Jun 14, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are triggered and obsessed.


So your answer is:  "I don't know"


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 14, 2022)

Happened again said:


> So your answer is:  "I don't know"


He forgot the question...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 14, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> More brain dead lack of awareness or is it a comprehension issue.
> 
> And more of the same.
> Read, comprehend, read again if need be.


If only you had a dime every time you received that information...you'd be a very rich idiot...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 14, 2022)

WASHINGTON, June 14, 2022 – The American Petroleum Institute (API) today released a 10 in 2022 plan – 10 policies that policymakers can advance today to unlock American energy, fuel economic recovery, and strengthen national security. As energy costs and geopolitical instability around the world continue to rise, API is calling on policymakers to confront the global mismatch between energy demand and available supply that has driven higher fuel prices by supporting greater U.S. production and infrastructure.

“America is blessed with abundant energy resources that are the envy of the world. Given today’s global unrest and economic uncertainty, American energy is a long-term strategic asset that can advance our national and economic security,” said API President and CEO Mike Sommers. “These 10 in ’22 policies are a framework for new energy leadership for our nation, unleashing investment in America and creating new energy access while avoiding harmful government policies and duplicative regulation. It’s time to lead.”

In a letter to President Biden, Sommers highlighted the economic importance of American oil and natural gas resources, supporting more than 11 million U.S. jobs, investing billions in the U.S. economy, and powering our way of life and urged his administration to act immediately to implement the 10 policies that support energy investment, create new access and keep government policies from unnecessarily restricting energy growth.

10 actions policymakers can take right now:

*1. Lift Development Restrictions on Federal Lands and Waters*

The Department of the Interior (DOI) should swiftly issue a 5-year program for the Outer Continental Shelf and hold mandated quarterly onshore lease sales with equitable terms. DOI should reinstate canceled sales and valid leases on federal lands and waters.

*2. Designate Critical Energy Infrastructure Projects*

Congress should authorize critical energy infrastructure projects to support the production, processing and delivery of energy. These projects would be of such concern to the national interest that they would be entitled to undergo a streamlined review and permitting process not to exceed one year.

*3. Fix the NEPA Permitting Process*

The Biden administration should revise the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process by establishing agency uniformity in reviews, limiting reviews to two years, and reducing bureaucratic burdens placed on project proponents in terms of size and scope of application submissions.

*4. Accelerate LNG Exports and Approve Pending LNG Applications*

Congress should amend the Natural Gas Act to streamline the Department of Energy (DOE) to a single approval process for all U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) projects. DOE should approve pending LNG applications to enable the U.S. to deliver reliable energy to our allies abroad.

*5. Unlock Investment and Access to Capital*

The Securities and Exchange Commission should reconsider its overly burdensome and ineffective climate disclosure proposal and the Biden administration should ensure open capital markets where access is based upon individual company merit free from artificial constraints based on government-preferred investment allocations.\

*6. Dismantle Supply Chain Bottlenecks*

President Biden should rescind steel tariffs that remain on imports from U.S. allies as steel is a critical component of energy production, transportation, and refining. The Biden administration should accelerate efforts to relieve port congestion so that equipment necessary for energy development can be delivered and installed.

*7. Advance Lower Carbon Energy Tax Provisions*

Congress should expand and extend Section 45Q tax credits for carbon capture, utilization, and storage development and create a new tax credit for hydrogen produced from all sources.

*8. Protect Competition in the Use of Refining Technologies*

The Biden administration should ensure that future federal agency rulemakings continue to allow U.S. refineries to use the existing critical process technologies to produce the fuels needed for global energy markets.

*9. End Permitting Obstruction on Natural Gas Projects*

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission should cease efforts to overstep its permitting authority under the Natural Gas Act and should adhere to traditional considerations of public needs as well as focus on direct impacts arising from the construction and operation of natural gas projects.

*10. Advance the Energy Workforce of the Future*

Congress and the Biden administration should support the training and education of a diverse workforce through increased funding of work-based learning and advancement of STEM programs to nurture the skills necessary to construct and operate oil, natural gas and other energy infrastructure.

Click here to view the plan.

API represents all segments of America’s natural gas and oil industry, which supports more than 11 million U.S. jobs and is backed by a growing grassroots movement of millions of Americans. Our nearly 600 members produce, process and distribute the majority of the nation’s energy, and participate in API Energy Excellence®, which is accelerating environmental and safety progress by fostering new technologies and transparent reporting. API was formed in 1919 as a standards-setting organization and has developed more than 800 standards to enhance operational and environmental safety, efficiency and sustainability.

###

https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/news/2022/06/13/ten-point-plan-to-restore-us-energy-leadership-fuel-economic-recovery


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 14, 2022)

*A tampon shortage is the latest nightmare for women*
https://www.cnn.com/profiles/allison-morrow
By Allison Morrow, CNN Business

Updated 4:04 PM ET, Fri June 10, 2022
New York (CNN Business)Supply chain problems and inflation have hit virtually all consumer goods, but women who menstruate are now facing an added strain as a shortage of period products hits the United States.

Top retailers and manufacturers acknowledged the shortages this week, confirming complaints that have been circulating on social media for months. The issue garnered national attention this week after an article in Time called the dearth of tampons and pads the shortage "no one is talking about."

"I haven't seen any products in stores for months," one user posted on Reddit. "I've been ordering my tampons on Amazon and have been getting price gouged."

Tampon prices are up significantly — nearly 10% from a year ago, according to Bloomberg. But an Amazon spokesperson denied rumors of price gouging, saying its policies "help ensure sellers are pricing their products competitively," and that the company actively monitors pricing and removes offers that violate its fair pricing policy.

The shortages appear to stem from supply constraints around key materials like cotton and plastic, which are also used in personal protective equipment, and have been in high demand from the start of the pandemic. The war in Ukraine has further crimped supply because Russia and Ukraine are both major exporters of fertilizer, which is used to grow cotton. A drought in Texas hasn't helped, either.

Shortages of raw materials and supply chain bottlenecks aren't unique to period products, but much like the US infant formula shortage, there's an unrelenting and urgent biological demand for them that can't be easily substituted. People who menstruate can't simply wait for the shelves to be restocked.

"Getting raw and packed materials to the places we need to get them to continues to be costly and highly volatile," said Andre Schulten, Procter & Gamble's chief financial officer, on a recent earnings call.

When Time asked Procter & Gamble, which owns the popular Tampax and Always brands, about the shortage, a company spokesperson blamed increased demand linked to an ad campaign featuring the comedian Amy Schumer.

Since the ads launched in July 2020, "retail sales growth has exploded," the spokesperson told Time.

Of course, putting the blame on Schumer's ads doesn't account for why other brands also are hard to come by. A P&G representative told CNN Business Thursday that the Tampax team is "producing tampons 24/7 to meet the increased demand."

"We understand it is frustrating for consumers when they can't find what they need," the P&G spokeperson said in an email. "We can assure you this is a temporary situation."

As headlines about the Schumer comment circulated this week, the comedian, who's spoken publicly about her hysterectomy last year, responded with a quip on social media.

"Whoa, I don't even have a uterus," she wrote on Instagram Thursday beneath a screenshot of a headline reading: "Why Amy Schumer is getting blamed for the national tampon shortage."

Schumer's representatives didn't respond to a request for comment.

Both Walgreens and CVS said they are aware of tampon and other period product shortages in some areas and that they are working with their suppliers to ensure they can restock as soon as possible.

The tampon shortage shares uneasy parallels with the infant formula shortage, primarily in the unhelpful responses offered by men who aren't directly affected by them. In both cases, women say they are being bombarded with comments — some genuinely offering help, others dripping with indignation over women's supposed biological failings.

"If we could imagine a world where men had to breastfeed their babies ... the formula shortage there would not be so dire," wrote journalist Elizabeth Spiers in an opinion essay for The New York Times. "In that alternative reality...formula would not be stigmatized because it's a choice men would want to have available to them."









						A tampon shortage is the latest nightmare for women
					

Supply chain problems and inflation have hit virtually all consumer goods, but women who menstruate are now facing an added strain as a shortage of  period products hits the United States.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 14, 2022)

Well at least CNN acknowledged it’s a probelm for women. NPR said it’s a problem for “people that menstruate “



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536347886266552320


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 14, 2022)

Happened again said:


> So your answer is:  "I don't know"


Husker is so partisan he cannot see what is in front of him.

- the Ds did not allow the Rs to place who they wanted on the committee. So the fix was in from the start.
- the Ds then picked their own 2 Rs. Ones who hate T.
- In the opening evening discussing T tweets they leave out comments that exonerate him. IE...the tweet they discuss T mentions the election was stolen, etc. However they leave out the part at the end where he says go home and do so peacefully.

If you stack the committee is is purely partisan.

If you are providing "evidence" and make selective cuts it again shows it is purely partisan.

If the evidence was a slam dunk...they would not need to do stuff like the above.

There are lots of things/people/etc I dont like. However I am not going to throw out the rules, lie, selectively edit, etc in order to get them. If that is the only way you can "get" someone...ie by lying, cheating, stacking the committee, then you are no better than the person you are trying to get. They claim T threw out the norms. But in their zeal to get him, are doing just that.


----------



## watfly (Jun 14, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Husker is so partisan he cannot see what is in front of him.
> 
> - the Ds did not allow the Rs to place who they wanted on the committee. So the fix was in from the start.
> - the Ds then picked their own 2 Rs. Ones who hate T.
> ...


And now the Democrat chair is claiming they will not be making a criminal referral.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 14, 2022)

watfly said:


> And now the Democrat chair is claiming they will not be making a criminal referral.


I saw that. And that is telling. After all this time, they have nothing to make a referral on. And despite that, they wanted to make a televised event. T


----------



## watfly (Jun 14, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> I saw that. And that is telling. After all this time, they have nothing to make a referral on. And despite that, they wanted to make a televised event. T


Espola and Husker need to call their Congress people and express the same utter outrage they've expressed here to them.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 14, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> I saw that. And that is telling. After all this time, they have nothing to make a referral on. And despite that, they wanted to make a televised event. T


Recall also that that the NY grand jury has decided to pass as well. 

The left and the news outlets talked up the NY angle for a long time. NY was going to be able to get him. 

And yet? That one also passed. 

Those affected the most? Husker and Espola.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 14, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> again, do you have any idea what happened in the GA primary in May . Do you know how Trumps most hated republican did ?











						Trump's circle is convinced that losing in the Georgia primaries actually proves them right, source says
					

Trump's endorsed candidates suffered huge losses in the GOP primary for Georgia governor and secretary of state.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 14, 2022)

Kathleen Buhle...
Bless her heart...seems to be an awful lot of Stepford still haunting her.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 14, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trump's circle is convinced that losing in the Georgia primaries actually proves them right, source says
> 
> 
> Trump's endorsed candidates suffered huge losses in the GOP primary for Georgia governor and secretary of state.
> ...


So?

what did the voters think?


Isn’t your argument that the R party and voters are under the control of Trump?

how do you square that with what took place in GA, and he’ll even VA last fall


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

watfly said:


> Off the top of my head...suspend the Federal gas tax which would also put pressure on states to follow suit.


Allow people to pull (x amount) from their 401k/IRA penalty/Tax free. People are going to need that money...








						Here's everything the Fed is expected to announce, including the biggest rate hike in 28 years
					

The Federal Reserve on Wednesday is expected to do something it hasn't done in 28 years — increase interest rates by three-quarters of a percentage point.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

espola said:


> Good for you.  The first step in solving your problems is to admit that you have them.


So you're finally gonna admit you're a liar. Not a big deal since it's common knowledge..


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Funny how you take it personal about your trump. The key part of it is in opec’s lap not your dear donald’s.


I don't understand your obsession with President Trump. Is he that much in your head that you have yo use a lower case T? Does doing that somehow make you feel bigger, more powerful? And why does pointing out facts to go against your narrative always seem to turn into a discussion about Trump?


----------



## espola (Jun 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I don't understand your obsession with President Trump. Is he that much in your head that you have yo use a lower case T? Does doing that somehow make you feel bigger, more powerful? And why does pointing out facts to go against your narrative always seem to turn into a discussion about Trump?


You just proved his point.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

espola said:


> You just proved his point.


Show me.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Allow people to pull (x amount) from their 401k/IRA penalty/Tax free. People are going to need that money...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stupid is as stupid does.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Stupid is as stupid does.


So you think the Fed is stupid to raise rates this much?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So you think the Fed is stupid to raise rates this much?


1994 started a good run.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

Lying Joe Biden....CNN calls bull!


*Fact check: Biden falsely claims US has 'fastest-growing economy in the world'*
https://www.cnn.com/profiles/daniel-dale
By Daniel Dale, CNN

Updated 6:56 PM ET, Fri June 10, 2022

Washington (CNN)In a Wednesday appearance on the ABC late-night show "Jimmy Kimmel Live!," President Joe Biden made a dramatic claim about the US economy -- and repeated himself for emphasis.
"Look, here's where we are. We have the fastest-growing economy in the world. The world. The world," Biden said.
*Facts First*: _Biden's claim is false. The US economy __grew by 5.7% in 2021__, but more than 50 other countries had faster growth that year, __figures__ published by the International Monetary Fund show; many of them are small or developing countries, but some of them are large or wealthy. In addition, the US economy __shrank__ in the first quarter of 2022, while various other countries experienced growth. And while economic experts __expect the US economy to resume growing__ over the rest of this year, a significant number of other countries are __expected to grow faster__._
Asked for comment on Friday, a White House official did not attempt to specifically defend Biden's claim that the US has the fastest-growing economy in the world.
*How the US compares*
Biden took office in late January 2021. Among the dozens of countries that saw faster real GDP growth than the US in 2021 were Ireland (13.5%), Chile (11.7%), Turkey (11%), Colombia (10.6%), India (8.7% for the fiscal year that began in April 2021), Greece (8.3%), Israel (8.2%), China (8.1%), the United Kingdom (7.4%), France (7%) and Italy (6.6%), according to figures published by the IMF and the countries' governments. (Many countries' growth rates were higher than usual in 2021 because their economies were rebounding from the 2020 economic crisis caused by the pandemic.)
An economic outlook released this week by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development projected the US would grow by 2.5% in 2022. That was lower than the OECD's 2022 projections for 11 other members of the Group of 20 international forum: Saudi Arabia (7.8%), India (6.9% for the fiscal year), Indonesia (4.7%), China (4.4%), Australia (4.2%), Spain (4.1%), Canada (3.8%), Turkey (3.7%), the United Kingdom (3.6%), Argentina (3.6%) and South Korea (2.7%).
We'll add one caveat. There are various ways to measure growth -- among other things, you can pick different start and end points and different gauges of economic activity -- and there are various complications involved in the data.
Laura Veldkamp, a finance professor at Columbia University's business school, said there is "no way" that Biden's claim is true if he was using "fastest-growing" in the usual way, referring to a percentage change. She said, however, that she would personally describe the President's claim as "misleading," rather than false, since "the word growth in conversation can mean many things."
We'll respectfully stick with our harsher conclusion. If Biden was citing some unusual or obscure measure of growth, he could have explained that. He didn't, and the White House didn't either when asked for comment.









						Fact check: Biden falsely claims US has 'fastest-growing economy in the world' | CNN Politics
					

In a Wednesday appearance on the ABC late-night show "Jimmy Kimmel Live!," President Joe Biden made a dramatic claim about the US economy -- and repeated himself for emphasis.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 15, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> WASHINGTON, June 14, 2022 – The American Petroleum Institute (API) today released a 10 in 2022 plan – 10 policies that policymakers can advance today to unlock American energy, fuel economic recovery, and strengthen national security. As energy costs and geopolitical instability around the world continue to rise, API is calling on policymakers to confront the global mismatch between energy demand and available supply that has driven higher fuel prices by supporting greater U.S. production and infrastructure.
> 
> “America is blessed with abundant energy resources that are the envy of the world. Given today’s global unrest and economic uncertainty, American energy is a long-term strategic asset that can advance our national and economic security,” said API President and CEO Mike Sommers. “These 10 in ’22 policies are a framework for new energy leadership for our nation, unleashing investment in America and creating new energy access while avoiding harmful government policies and duplicative regulation. It’s time to lead.”
> 
> ...


This reads more like a ransom letter than anything else...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

*Republicans flip U.S. House seat in South Texas, historically a Democratic stronghold*
Republican Mayra Flores prevailed Tuesday in a special election for an open congressional seat in South Texas, marking a major breakthrough for Republicans eager to blaze new inroads in the historically blue region.

Flores campaigned hard on her story as the wife of a U.S. Border Patrol agent and as a Mexican immigrant whose parents brought her to the United States as a young child. She mostly ignored Sanchez but took a sharp tone against Washington, D.C., Democrats in general. In one of her TV ads, she said the Rio Grande Valley is “under attack” at the border and promised not to let the “compadrismo” — cronyism — “in Washington ruin our communities.”









						Republicans flip U.S. House seat in South Texas, historically a Democratic stronghold
					

Mayra Flores, a Republican, won a special election to fill the unexpired term of U.S. Rep. Filemon Vela. Another election will be held in November.




					www.texastribune.org


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This reads more like a ransom letter than anything else...


This reads like extortion....



Biden’s policies have made domestic energy production more difficult and less cost-efficient.  Joe repeatedly promised he would move away from oil & coal while campaigning for President. We get the government we vote for....


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> 1994 started a good run.


A few decades late.. let's talk about 2022.


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This reads more like a ransom letter than anything else...


Like everything else the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Just FYI, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I never recall George H. calling the Gulf War gas price spike the "Saddam Price Hike".  More importantly, George H never allowed inflation to get out of control. so their was never the need to blame someone else for rising prices.  I think they call that "accountability".  While he did experience a mild recession, mostly as a result of the war, it was short and already recovering when he left office.

Out of curiosity, who knew our economy was primarily dependent on Russia?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

High prices at the pump? One parties grasp of energy/prices/economics, etc is tenuous at best.

Lets look back a bit.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535667434912464897

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536797759419867136
Flashback to January 2021:



> *Biden suspends oil and gas leasing in slew of executive actions on climate change*
> Emma Newburger
> President Joe Biden on Wednesday signed a series of executive orders that prioritize climate change across all levels of government and put the U.S. on track to curb planet-warming carbon emissions.
> Biden's orders direct the secretary of the Interior Department to halt new oil and natural gas leases on public lands and waters, and begin a thorough review of existing permits for fossil fuel development.
> The series of actions kick off the president's agenda to reduce the country's emissions and establish stricter targets under the Paris climate accord.



As recently reported by the Financial Times ,Via Twitchy, Biden just found out that when he burned the US's domestic production capacity down, it was easier to shut down than to put back online.



> As US petrol prices scale record highs, with the cost of a gallon of fuel surpassing $5 for the first time, Joe Biden has pleaded with the country�s oil producers to open the taps and stem the surge.
> But those calls -- a stark departure for a president who vowed to crack down on fossil fuels -- have largely gone unheeded as the industry insists its drilling spree days are behind it.
> "When the White House started calling around in a panic, they thought shale oil production could grow sharply in the near term -- like in a matter of months or quarters," said Bob McNally, head of consultancy Rapidan Energy.
> "They were shocked to learn that that's like asking for blood from a stone. It's almost impossible."



"Shocked to learn."


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> High prices at the pump? One parties grasp of energy/prices/economics, etc is tenuous at best.
> 
> Lets look back a bit.
> 
> ...


Are you better off now than you were four years ago?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

And when T said he would continue to work with the Saudis, the press, Biden, etc had fits. A threat to our values.

Now as economic reality sets in...Biden wants to hang with the Saudis. But notice the lack of outrage by the press and the Ds.

Economic reality strikes again.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536515890568515585

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536516453435949058


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And when T said he would continue to work with the Saudis, the press, Biden, etc had fits. A threat to our values.
> 
> Now as economic reality sets in...Biden wants to hang with the Saudis. But notice the lack of outrage by the press and the Ds.
> 
> ...


Didn’t you agree with trumps assessment that we had become “energy independent”?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Didn’t you agree with trumps assessment that we had become “energy independent”?


And what are the policies of the Biden admin?

Stop drilling. No new leases. Review old leases. Shut down pipelines.

You have people in power that are clueless. Take a look at the covid policies. Look at the reckless spending which is now causing the highest inflation in decades.

When you vote for a politician who is not capable of being a leader and is surrounded by ideologues who create policy, this is what gets inflicted on the country.

The country is going in the wrong direction and the people steering it are the ones you blindly follow. We are getting hammered economically and it is going to get worse. High inflation...soon to be much higher interest rates, etc. Bad policies create terrible outcomes.

Tell me Husker....

-what are the shining moments so far of the Biden admin that makes you think...man this guy is doing a great job. List those accomplishments you think stand out.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

*US Consumer Sentiment Slumps to Record Low on Rapid Inflation*
US consumer sentiment plunged in early June to the lowest on record as soaring inflation continued to batter household finances.

The University of Michigan's preliminary June sentiment index fell to 50.2, from 58.4 in May, data released Friday showed. The figure was weaker than all estimates in a Bloomberg survey of economists which had a median forecast of 58.1.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536879096147460096
And the WH is in Baghdad Bob mode saying everything is great people!! We are doing well..he says. 


The reality? People vote their pocketbook. Right now prices are through the roof. November is going to be ugly.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536776663245242369


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And what are the policies of the Biden admin?
> 
> Stop drilling. No new leases. Review old leases. Shut down pipelines.
> 
> ...


No mean tweets?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

UNEXPECTEDLY! Retail sales in May slip 0.3% amid surging inflation. “Americans trimmed their spending unexpectedly in May compared with a month before, underscoring how surging inflation on daily necessities like gas is causing them to be more cautious about buying discretionary items. U.S. retail sales slipped 0.3% last month, down from a revised 0.7% increase in April, the Commerce Department said Wednesday.”

Also equally “unexpectedly:” Breaking: US Economy Technically Enters Recession.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

SOMETIMES THE LEFT HAND DOESN’T KNOW WHAT THE FAR LEFT HAND IS DOING:

Shot: Biden to oil companies: Produce more gasoline, fewer profits to alleviate pain at pump.

—The _Washington Times,_ today.

Chaser: John Kerry: We Don’t Need to Drill More for Oil and Gas.

—_Townhall,_ yesterday.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> And what are the policies of the Biden admin?
> 
> Stop drilling. No new leases. Review old leases. Shut down pipelines.
> 
> ...


In the current climate it’s almost impossible to achieve much as even when the opposition agrees with you they won’t allow a W. Biden is doing ok with what he can control but isn’t a self promoter or huge liar which I’m sure you would prefer. Is he a dream? No. Do I trust him? Yes. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please a trumpist without reinstating trump.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the current climate it’s almost impossible to achieve much as even when the opposition agrees with you they won’t allow a W. Biden is doing ok with what he can control but isn’t a self promoter or huge liar which I’m sure you would prefer. Is he a dream? No. Do I trust him? Yes. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please a trumpist without reinstating trump.


Joe Biden is a known liar and plagiarist....Joe is a one term President and Kamela is on deck....what a disaster.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 15, 2022)

Just leave poor Joe alone 









						Leave Joe Biden Alone
					

Biden’s been a good president, but Republicans want to impeach him and some Democrats want to replace him.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe Biden is a known liar and plagiarist....Joe is a one term President and Kamela is on deck....what a disaster.


“known”? You have examples? Anywhere near the 15,999+ of the previous resident? Or maybe Michelle’s speach by Melania?
Funny how you never brought up any of the previous residents issues. And I still remember your constant barrage against the last two term president (and our wager). Joe was the best of the eligible candidates. I’m sure you’ll vote for trump as many times as you can, good luck with that.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the current climate it’s almost impossible to achieve much as even when the opposition agrees with you they won’t allow a W. Biden is doing ok with what he can control but isn’t a self promoter or huge liar which I’m sure you would prefer. Is he a dream? No. Do I trust him? Yes. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please a trumpist without reinstating trump.


The current climate being your party controls all 3 branches? 

What exactly is Biden doing OK at? 

Is it the economy? 
Is it foreign policy? 

Where might he be doing OK at?

If he is doing OK...why does basically every political analyst think the Ds are going to get wiped out in the House and Senate in November? 

Why is he underwater in polling in every state (minus 2) in the nation?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Husker I forgot to ask. 

Anything exciting going on recently during the "insurrection" hearings? 

Or do people think...here is proof positive that the Ds are out of touch. Rome burns while they fiddle. 

All that spending causing inflation. Hurts everyone. But especially hurts those that can least afford it. In theory the ones the Ds say they care about. And yet their policies are hammering them financially. First they screwed their kids during Covid. Now on the rebound they are hammering the parents with inflation. 

That is the legacy of the Biden admin. 

Carter has long been considered a miserable failure. Biden with his policies is looking to take over that spot.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> The current climate being your party controls all 3 branches?
> 
> What exactly is Biden doing OK at?
> 
> ...


You’ll be ok, get some exercise and try eating better. Joe is managing, you’re not.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Husker I forgot to ask.
> 
> Anything exciting going on recently during the "insurrection" hearings?
> 
> ...


I haven’t watched the hearings.


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> The current climate being your party controls all 3 branches?
> 
> What exactly is Biden doing OK at?
> 
> ...


Holy shit.  Which two?  I'm afraid you're going to say California.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

"Republicans flipped a majority-Hispanic seat in South Texas *for the first time in more than a century Tuesday night*, a result that spells major trouble for Democrats ahead of the 2022 midterms.

Republican Mayra Flores became the first Mexican-born woman elected to Congress after she defeated Democrat Dan Sanchez by 8 points in the special election for Texas's 34th Congressional District, which incumbent Filemon Vela (D.) vacated in March. A Republican has not represented the area since 1870, according to the _Houston Chronicle_.

Flores's historic win will almost certainly send Democrats reeling just months away from November as the party loses its long-held grip on Hispanic voters. V*ela won the district, which is 84 percent Hispanic, by 20 points in 2018 and 14 points in 2020.* But record-high inflation, gas prices, and illegal immigrant encounters under *President Joe Biden have driven South Texas's Hispanic voters to the Republican Party in droves. Flores, for example, defeated Sanchez in Cameron County, which is 90 percent Hispanic. Biden won the county by double-digits less than two years ago."*









						Here's Why South Texas Special Election Spells Doom for Dems in November
					

Republicans flipped a majority-Hispanic seat in South Texas for the first time in more than a century Tuesday night, a result that spells major trouble for Democrats ahead of the 2022 midterms.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’ll be ok, get some exercise and try eating better. Joe is managing, you’re not.


So your non answer is the answer.

Almost 2 yrs into this you cannot point to any successes by Biden. 

Don't worry...neither can anyone else. So you are not alone.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I haven’t watched the hearings.


Don't feel bad. Nobody else is either.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> So your non answer is the answer.
> 
> Almost 2 yrs into this you cannot point to any successes by Biden.
> 
> Don't worry...neither can anyone else. So you are not alone.


He’s kept us safe from, he’s marshaled the economy along, he got build back better passed, he is guarding social security and Medicare, he is building back trust with our allies, he is strengthening trade agreements, we are back in the Paris agreement, Kim Jong un no longer sends love letters to the White House, Biden has made sure we known the Russian people aren’t Putin and that Putin is a war criminal, we now support democracy not undermine it, reduced unemployment, strengthened the military by allowing all Americans the opportunity to serve, appointment of federal judges . . .


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Don't feel bad. Nobody else is either.


The people that need to won’t and if they do they won’t believe any of it . . . they think trump is still president. It is purely a political stunt to enlighten. It won’t work. ‘murican’ts don’t care, they just want daddy back.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> he got build back better passed


You do know that is a major driver of the inflation we have right?




Hüsker Dü said:


> he is guarding social security and Medicare


How exactly is he doing this? What was passed as it relates to this? 



Hüsker Dü said:


> he is building back trust with our allies, he is strengthening trade agreements


Specifics? Oh yeah there are none you can point to.

What trade agreements has he changed or even signed on too?




Hüsker Dü said:


> has made sure we known the Russian people aren’t Putin and that Putin is a war criminal


Still flogging the Russian collusion thing are we?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “known”? You have examples? Anywhere near the 15,999+ of the previous resident? Or maybe Michelle’s speach by Melania?
> Funny how you never brought up any of the previous residents issues. And I still remember your constant barrage against the last two term president (and our wager). Joe was the best of the eligible candidates. I’m sure you’ll vote for trump as many times as you can, good luck with that.


The last President as obnoxious as he is, had record employment, gas was $3.00 a gallon cheaper, the border was secure, we had baby formula and tampons on the shelf, inflation was 1.5%...
Now...sit back relax and enjoy...





Presumptive Democratic Party presidential nominee Joe Biden has a serious problem: His compulsive plagiarism has gotten out of control.

As is clearly evident from his new policy platform, the former vice president just can't stop stealing original ideas from other politicians—a rather worrying sign for someone whose mental fitness for the pressures of the presidency has already come under serious scrutiny.

Biden's "Made in America" doctrine—which calls for increased government purchases from U.S. producers—is strikingly similar to President Trump's own America First economic platform. In fact, it's almost identical to the executive order the president signed a full year ago prioritizing the purchasing of American-made products and the hiring of American workers by government agencies.








						Joe Biden's Plagiarism Is a Danger to America
					

The Democratic presidential nominee has never escaped his plagiarist past.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

The education Daffy Duck....
*Biden’s obsessive lies – small and large – are big trouble for America*
By 
Post Editorial Board
November 22, 2021


President Joe Biden keeps telling lies. He just told a New Hampshire crowd of “having had a house burn down with my wife in it — she got out safely, God willing.” In fact, the Associated Press reports, it was a minor kitchen fire, with no damage visible from outside.

He’s overblown the incident in the past, albeit not as much. Nor can he stop talking about a chat with an Amtrak conductor in his seventh year as vice president, when the guy retired 15 years before Biden became veep and had _died_ by the year of the tale.

Biden claims he was offered a job by an Idaho lumber company; they have no record. He claims he “used to drive” an 18-wheeler — it didn’t happen. He’s said he visited Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life synagogue after the 2018 massacre, speaking to the rabbi, when the synagogue says he’s never even been there.

It’s a schtick and a disturbing one: He invents stuff in order to make a seemingly personal connection with his audience, but it’s a phony connection. Biden has been in Washington almost his entire adult life, he’s not a blue-collar worker struggling to get by.

Even when there’s some truth, he exaggerates — as when he chats with Gold Star families about his late son Beau as if he’d died in action, rather than of brain cancer.

Look: You _can_ show empathy without an actual shared experience. Insisting on making one up isn’t truly relating, it’s a calculated con job.

It would be bad enough if Biden only told personal tall tales. But his reality distortion field now extends to national policy. He routinely insists “all the economists” back his plans, writes off inflation as a temporary spike, insists the border surge is just “seasonal,” even calls his disastrous Afghan bugout a “success” (while falsely claiming his generals didn’t object).

Truth just doesn’t matter: He’ll say whatever he likes to get past the moment. He got away with it for most of his life because nobody bothers to fact-check a Delaware senator.

Now he’s president, and his lies are going to hurt us all.









						Biden’s obsessive lies – small and large – are big trouble for America
					

President Joe Biden keeps telling lies. He just told a New Hampshire crowd of “having had a house burn down with my wife in it — she got out safely, God willing.” In fact, the Associated Press repo…




					nypost.com


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 15, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The last President as obnoxious as he is, had record employment, gas was $3.00 a gallon cheaper, the border was secure, we had baby formula and tampons on the shelf, inflation was 1.5%...
> Now...sit back relax and enjoy...
> 
> 
> ...


jeez I thought this was well known that this is why he dropped out in 88

Bias by omission , that’s what the press does , and when you only consume mainstream sources for news it’s not that surprising that one would not know


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 15, 2022)

That should hold you for a while Daff...
I'm sorry you had to learn this information from me...
Be strong!

*‘Joe Biden is a pathological liar’*
Biden claims he took part in the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and not a word is true

This coming Tuesday, as you head off to the polls to cast your vote, remember this: Joe Biden is a pathological liar. 

Donald Trump may be rude and crude. He may be abrasive and off-putting. His Twitter temperament may be caustic, his leadership style demanding, his political instincts heavy-handed, and his use of hyperbole a bit extreme; yes, President Trump may be a pugnacious man with many flaws that he doesn’t even care to hide, but Joe Biden is a proven, habitual, unrepentant fraud and a pathological liar of the highest order.  

Civil rights activist Shaun King says this. “Since the early 1970s, Joe Biden has been a serial liar …” 

Mr. King goes on to explain. 

“In 1987, when Joe Biden was running for president for the very first time, his campaign got swallowed up in a swarm of lies that [he] told about himself all over the country. First, Biden was caught plagiarizing a famous speech from, then, Britsh Labor Pary Leader Neil Kinnock — including parts of the speech that came straight from Kinnock’s personal life that were not true for Biden.

“Then, he plagiarized yet another speech from the late Robert Kennedy and another from JFK and another from Hubert Humphrey … Soon, it was discovered that Biden had not just plagiarized those four speeches, but had lied about academic awards [that he never earned], lied about scholarships [that he never received], and lied about his ranking in law school [stating he graduated in the top half of his class when in fact he finished 76th out of 85].”

Mr. King then concludes by highlighting the series of 31 Biden lies he finds most foul; a list of prevarications dating back to the ’70s that are beyond the pale because they show Mr. Biden to be a bald-faced liar about his involvement in our nation’s march for civil rights.

After going through each one of these deceptions in great detail, Mr. King offers this summary: “Joe Biden … on the backs of people who actually paid an enormous price for being activists and organizers in the Civil Rights Movement, created a completely false narrative of his work and contributions …” In other words, Mr. Biden repeatedly claimed that he took part in the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and not a word of it was or is true. It never happened. He is lying.   

Jeff Chidester of Seacoastonline summarizes Mr. Biden’s pattern of deceit this way. “On numerous occasions, Biden claimed he … was an activist and organizer within the civil rights movement, that he had been trained as a civil rights activist in Black churches, that he had participated in civil rights sit-ins, boycotts, and marches, and even went so far as to claim he was ‘raised in a Black church.’ None of this is true, not even a little bit. It’s all a complete fabrication … A decent man does not do this; a deceitful man does.”

But there is more. A lot more. 

Mr. Chidester then goes on to tell us of the “one Biden lie, above all others” that he considers “not only repugnant, but vile to its very core.”

In 1972 after Mr. Biden’s first wife, Neilia, and his daughter, Naomi, lost their lives in a tragic auto accident, Joe Biden immediately took to the stump, claiming that Curtis C. Dunn, the driver of the tractor-trailer rig that hit the Bidens, was drunk at the time of the accident.

Here’s the problem. This is not true. Not even close. 

Mr. Chidester writes, “[The fact is that] Biden’s wife failed to yield the right of way, Dunn put his life in jeopardy when trying to avoid hitting the Biden vehicle, and after the accident tried to render aid to the Biden family. Delaware Superior Court Judge Jerome O. Herlihy, who oversaw the police investigation as chief prosecutor [at the time], said there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever supporting Joe Biden’s ‘claim.’ Curtis Dunn was, in fact, cleared of any wrongdoing.”

For over 47 years of public life, Joe Biden has shown himself to have an irresistible propensity to lie. He has lied to his professors. He has lied to his constituents. He has lied about his academic work. He has lied about his speeches. He has lied about his support of civil rights. He has even lied about the death of his own wife and young daughter. And today, he continues to lie to us about his son, Burisma, the CCP and himself.  

entire article:








						‘Joe Biden is a pathological liar’
					

This coming Tuesday, as you head off to the polls to cast your vote, remember this: Joe Biden is a pathological liar.




					www.washingtontimes.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 15, 2022)

She must have slept through Econ101... or she never took it.









						AOC swings at the White House for weighing only $10,000 in student debt relief: 'We can do better'
					

Ocasio-Cortez said the meager student loan relief amount risks backfiring on Biden by angering just about everybody.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 15, 2022)

Biden lying or fabrications currently are probably more related to his extreme mental decline


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> So your non answer is the answer.
> 
> Almost 2 yrs into this you cannot point to any successes by Biden.
> 
> Don't worry...neither can anyone else. So you are not alone.


You're being unfair to Biden, why just today he sent a strongly worded letter to oil refiners.









						Biden sends letter to oil refiners blasting high profits amid record gas prices
					

He said oil company profit margins are the highest ever recorded.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “known”? You have examples? Anywhere near the 15,999+ of the previous resident? Or maybe Michelle’s speach by Melania?
> Funny how you never brought up any of the previous residents issues. And I still remember your constant barrage against the last two term president (and our wager). Joe was the best of the eligible candidates. I’m sure you’ll vote for trump as many times as you can, good luck with that.


You know how sports commentators always jump on the bandwagon of some player that is hot early and "say he's on pace" to x amount of some achievement?  I think we need to do this with Biden's lies, because I agree with Husker that he probably hasn't hit 15,999 lies yet, but he's got 2.5 years to go (technically).  He's been on a hot streak this week, so odds may be pretty good that he'll challenge for Trump's record.


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Biden lying or fabrications currently are probably more related to his extreme mental decline


You're letting him off way too easy.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're being unfair to Biden, why just today he sent a strongly worded letter to oil refiners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sending a letter to some companies lets your constituents know that you care and are on top of things.


----------



## watfly (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Sending a letter to some companies lets your constituents know that you care and are on top of things.


The only thing ol' Joe has been on top of lately is a mattress.


----------



## Happened again (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> In the current climate it’s almost impossible to achieve much as even when the opposition agrees with you they won’t allow a W. Biden is doing ok with what he can control but isn’t a self promoter or huge liar which I’m sure you would prefer. Is he a dream? No. Do I trust him? Yes. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please a trumpist without reinstating trump.


hot mess


----------



## Happened again (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> He’s kept us safe from, he’s marshaled the economy along, he got build back better passed, he is guarding social security and Medicare, he is building back trust with our allies, he is strengthening trade agreements, we are back in the Paris agreement, Kim Jong un no longer sends love letters to the White House, Biden has made sure we known the Russian people aren’t Putin and that Putin is a war criminal, we now support democracy not undermine it, reduced unemployment, strengthened the military by allowing all Americans the opportunity to serve, appointment of federal judges . . .


such a Hot mess again.  Now you sound like the poor press secretary that has to read the playbook from the lecturn. 


Trust in allies?  How are we doing with the leadership thingy with the ukraine special operation?
Trade agreements?
What was so good about the Paris agreement?  How exactly did biden kick ass by getting us back into this thing?
Kim jong un now sends rockets into the east sea on a habitual basis.  Love letters were less stressfull to the south korean people
Putin and Russia are winning...it's not pretty, but they are winning. don't believe the hype, we are spending an untold amount of printed dollars on a proxy war with an inevitable ending. Waste of your dollars but very effective at raising gas prices. 
The last part of your rambling sounds like something that trumpy did:  " *reduced unemployment, strengthened the military by allowing all Americans the opportunity to serve, appointment of federal judges"*


----------



## Happened again (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The people that need to won’t and if they do they won’t believe any of it . . . they think trump is still president. It is purely a political stunt to enlighten. It won’t work. ‘murican’ts don’t care, they just want daddy back.


who thinks trump is still in office?  it is a political stunt...but no one cares - besides, some have had to cut the cable cord, downgrade their wifi, and cut hulu/youtubeTV subscriptions..no one is watching.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 15, 2022)

Happened again said:


> who thinks trump is still in office?  it is a political stunt...but no one cares - besides, some have had to cut the cable cord, downgrade their wifi, and cut hulu/youtubeTV subscriptions..no one is watching.


Get a fucking job.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Get a fucking job.


The guy you love...who not long ago was saying he is kick-ass is failing.

From economics, to domestic policy, to foreign policy...to energy...etc...

Everything is worse today by a long shot vs just a couple of yrs ago.

His policies have made everyone worse off today vs a couple of yrs ago.

In the end it is pocketbook issues. And now everyone is worse off.

What part of his policies that affect us do you like better?

Inflation?
Higher interest rates?
??


----------



## whatithink (Jun 15, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> You do know that is a major driver of the inflation we have right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Out of interest, which piece of the "build back better" is a major driver of inflation? I thought it passed the house but died in the Senate. So I'm not exactly sure how its a major driver of inflation!

There was the $1.9T "American Rescue Plan" in early 2021. It was on top of the $4T+ from the previous administration. The main consumer give in that was $1400, reducing for higher earners. I'm not sure that (alone) is the catalyst for inflation. There was also the child tax give from mid last year, but that had to be deducted on your tax returns. It could have caused higher spending, but not exactly huge in and of itself at a few hundred bucks per month per child. Maybe the record personal savings in the US and record low consumer debt coming out of Covid caused a surge in demand and spending, and price rises given the supply chain had not caught up, and then China kept dicking around, then oil needed to ramp up as they had reduced supply (due to lower demand) and then the dick Putin decided to channel his inner Stalin.

I'm *not* impressed with Biden or the D's. I do, however, recognize that inflation is a worldwide issue, that oil prices are out of their control, that oil supply isn't actually the issue, that the Fed manages inflation and should have acted sooner (& the admin should have been asking them to although then they would have been screamed at for cooling the housing market, dampening investment, lowering the stock market etc...).

One thing governments everywhere have learnt from all this is that the global economy is very real and it makes them all very powerless from a policy perspective. Oh yeah, and market speculators control the price of oil. I posted this a few pages back. 









						Citi: Oil Is Overvalued By $50 Per Barrel | OilPrice.com
					

Brent crude, trading Wednesday at over $116 per barrel, should be closer to $70, according to Citi’s global head of commodity research, Ed Morse




					oilprice.com
				



.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 15, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Out of interest, which piece of the "build back better" is a major driver of inflation? I thought it passed the house but died in the Senate. So I'm not exactly sure how its a major driver of inflation!
> 
> There was the $1.9T "American Rescue Plan" in early 2021. It was on top of the $4T+ from the previous administration. The main consumer give in that was $1400, reducing for higher earners. I'm not sure that (alone) is the catalyst for inflation. There was also the child tax give from mid last year, but that had to be deducted on your tax returns. It could have caused higher spending, but not exactly huge in and of itself at a few hundred bucks per month per child. Maybe the record personal savings in the US and record low consumer debt coming out of Covid caused a surge in demand and spending, and price rises given the supply chain had not caught up, and then China kept dicking around, then oil needed to ramp up as they had reduced supply (due to lower demand) and then the dick Putin decided to channel his inner Stalin.
> 
> ...


I'll add, I have seen Biden talking about Putin's gas price increase, or something like that so I thought I'd have a look and basically oil prices were slowly increasing due to increased demand and supply ramping back up, however since the Russian troop buildup in Jan, oil has increased by about 35%. Factoring that into gas prices would decrease the price of gas from a $5 average to $3.30 or so. That's certainly an increase on the $3.01 avg for 2021, but less egregious.

Oil prices


----------



## watfly (Jun 16, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> The guy you love...who not long ago was saying he is kick-ass is failing.
> 
> From economics, to domestic policy, to foreign policy...to energy...etc...
> 
> ...


Let's put it this way.  Only a year and half into his presidency (if you can call it that) and his own party doesn't want him to run again.  That's pretty self explanatory.

With a few exceptions that we've seen here, the overwhelming majority of voters care far more for the color green ($), then they do for blue or red.


----------



## Happened again (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Get a fucking job.


Ha, a little under you skin maybe?  Your downward spiral has been something.  A sensible answer would have sufficed but this is good to.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Ha, a little under you skin maybe?  Your downward spiral has been something.  A sensible answer would have sufficed but this is good to.


Low on cash? Get a fucking job. I know people with 2 and a few 3 jobs . . . it’s like the early 1900’s all over “Again”.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Low on cash? Get a fucking job. I know people with 2 and a few 3 jobs . . . it’s like the early 1900’s all over “Again”.


Why would folks need three jobs? 
Hmmm...maybe to pay for gas....?


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Why would folks need three jobs?
> Hmmm...maybe to pay for gas....?


Wait but Biden said last week we have the fastest growing economy in the world


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Why would folks need three jobs?
> Hmmm...maybe to pay for gas....?


Many people in America have needed more than one job since before big oil decided to recoup lost profits. You do know that inflation and high gas prices are worldwide. It’s a global economy dummy.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Wait but Biden said last week we have the fastest growing economy in the world


Not surprising, that was a lie....


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Wait but Biden said last week we have the fastest growing economy in the world


Was he wrong? Prove it.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

Big oil decided to gouge customers once Biden took office 

when Trump was in office Big Oil did not care about profits

seems like a reasonable take

the school of Liz Warren I see

Good luck with that messaging


----------



## Happened again (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Low on cash? Get a fucking job. I know people with 2 and a few 3 jobs . . . it’s like the early 1900’s all over “Again”.


Einstein, that's almost the point of the discussion.  Our economy isn't very good right now.  Many people don't have a recession proof gig.  If your insult is directed soley at me - relaaax, my job is pretty good, cash is on point, family is cared for.  Inflation is certainly an inconvience.  2-3-4 jobs shouldn't be the answer, hard to catch up when inflation is making all of your gigs = net zero gain.  

But let's have committees run by people you admire, who have a recession proof gig, talk about some dude who hasn't been in office for a few years, and paint the picture that it's our patriotic duty to rehash some shit that should have been stopped before it started.  

But please tune into to mentally declining senior who can barely get out a sentence tell you that the economy is killing it...while you are at it, go buy an electric car, that will apparently solve everything.  

But here is what I really should be telling you, qued up by your own childike response:  Get a fucking clue.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Was he wrong? Prove it.


Cnn fact checked it , your #1 source of news ,you are a very low information voter .

you should work on being more informed


----------



## Happened again (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Was he wrong? Prove it.


I'll plug my nose and post this here.  I mean, really.  watching our president explain anything is like watching paint dry, and I'm being nice and respectful of the position.









						Fact check: Biden falsely claims US has 'fastest-growing economy in the world' | CNN Politics
					

In a Wednesday appearance on the ABC late-night show "Jimmy Kimmel Live!," President Joe Biden made a dramatic claim about the US economy -- and repeated himself for emphasis.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Einstein, that's almost the point of the discussion.  Our economy isn't very good right now.  Many people don't have a recession proof gig.  If your insult is directed soley at me - relaaax, my job is pretty good, cash is on point, family is cared for.  Inflation is certainly an inconvience.  2-3-4 jobs shouldn't be the answer, hard to catch up when inflation is making all of your gigs = net zero gain.
> 
> But let's have committees run by people you admire, who have a recession proof gig, talk about some dude who hasn't been in office for a few years, and paint the picture that it's our patriotic duty to rehash some shit that should have been stopped before it started.
> 
> ...


There are help wanted signs everywhere yet unemployment is at record lows.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Happened again said:


> I'll plug my nose and post this here.  I mean, really.  watching our president explain anything is like watching paint dry, and I'm being nice and respectful of the position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Happened again said:


> I'll plug my nose and post this here.  I mean, really.  watching our president explain anything is like watching paint dry, and I'm being nice and respectful of the position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like he was wrong. I’m glad you keep an eye on all this, I don’t. He was on Jimmy Kimmel?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Many people in America have needed more than one job since before big oil decided to recoup lost profits. You do know that inflation and high gas prices are worldwide. It’s a global economy dummy.


Bless your little heart Daff, I would have thought after your schooling yesterday that you would realize that Joe Biden is pathological... 
Our Inflation rate is 8.6%
France is 5.1%
Finland 5.8%, Portugal, Slovenia, Denmark,Cyprus, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Ireland, Croatia and Germany all inflation rates below 7.6%
We are importing baby formula and tampons from Europe...
Maybe your friends working three jobs are saving up for a new Tesla...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Bless your little heart Daff, I would have thought after your schooling yesterday that you would realize that Joe Biden is pathological...
> Our Inflation rate is 8.6%
> France is 5.1%
> Finland 5.8%, Portugal, Slovenia, Denmark,Cyprus, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Ireland, Croatia and Germany all inflation rates below 7.6%
> ...


That’s capitalism!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> There are help wanted signs everywhere yet unemployment is at record lows.


The labor participation rate is at 62.7% the lowest level since 1978....Jimmie Carter was President and our economy was shit...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Looks like he was wrong. I’m glad you keep an eye on all this, I don’t. He was on Jimmy Kimmel?


Wrong? When are you gonna learn Joe Biden is a pathological liar?


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

The economy is great , look at the unemployment numbers 

ignore your 401k
Gas prices 
Borrowing rates 
and about everything else that cost money

I guess lumber prices have gone down, yeah!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Wrong? When are you gonna learn Joe Biden is a pathological liar?


The previous resident makes all other politicians look like saints in comparison.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The labor participation rate is at 62.7% the lowest level since 1978....Jimmie Carter was President and our economy was shit...


Ford was a tough act to follow.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Get a fucking job.



"Hüsker Dü is the Bellwether of Inflation/Recession....

His Liquor cabinet must be empty, thus the filthy epithets
on display above.

Time to dry up "Hüsker Dü and face reality.

Your pedo boy Joey did that.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The previous resident makes all other politicians look like saints in comparison.


Your dollar shots are now $ 2.00.



Dry up.


----------



## watfly (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Bless your little heart Daff, I would have thought after your schooling yesterday that you would realize that Joe Biden is pathological...
> Our Inflation rate is 8.6%
> France is 5.1%
> Finland 5.8%, Portugal, Slovenia, Denmark,Cyprus, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Ireland, Croatia and Germany all inflation rates below 7.6%
> ...


Um Japan is below 3%, so is China but I hate to use them as a example.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ford was a tough act to follow.


Surprised you didn't blame Trump...
Good news for President Carter is he's lived long enough to witness Joe Biden making Carters Presidency look reasonable


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

watfly said:


> Um Japan is below 3%, so is China but I hate to use them as a example.


Let's blame Trump....


----------



## watfly (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Let's blame Trump....


Well actually if he weren't such an a'hole, he might still be President.  So there is a case to be made that Biden is Trumps fault.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Surprised you didn't blame Trump...
> Good news for President Carter is he's lived long enough to witness Joe Biden making Carters Presidency look reasonable


No denying Carter did the right thing (divested himself for one), has done the right thing (Habitat for Humanity for one) and is the victim of decades of derogatory rhetoric. There are distinct differences in personality between conservatives and progressives and the rights habit of disparaging people without citation (unless you can oblige) is one of the glaringly obvious differences.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

watfly said:


> Well actually if he weren't such an a'hole, he might still be President.  So there is a case to be made that Biden is Trumps fault.


Trump was Hillary’s fault and Biden Trump’s . . . and Obama was Palin’s.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No denying Carter did the right thing (divested himself for one), has done the right thing (Habitat for Humanity for one) and is the victim of decades of derogatory rhetoric. There are distinct differences in personality between conservatives and progressives and the rights habit of disparaging people without citation (unless you can oblige) is one of the glaringly obvious differences.


ahh Carter the former leader of the free world is a victim

I hope you are going be ok


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> ahh Carter the former leader of the free world is a victim
> 
> I hope you are going be ok


Playing the victim (trumpism) is different then victim of. Are you unable to oblige as well?


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Playing the victim (trumpism) is different then victim of. Are you unable to oblige as well?


I don”t think you are going be ok


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No denying Carter did the right thing (divested himself for one), has done the right thing (Habitat for Humanity for one) and is the victim of decades of derogatory rhetoric. There are distinct differences in personality between conservatives and progressives and the rights habit of disparaging people without citation (unless you can oblige) is one of the glaringly obvious differences.


The Camp David accord is probably his biggest accomplishment as President
Jimmy's post Presidency has been far more productive than his time in office. He's been a great humanitarian.
Carter was a progressive?
Wonder how many progressives graduated from the Navel Academy & have a nuclear powered submarine named after them?
I'm sure AOC is next....


----------



## Happened again (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Looks like he was wrong. I’m glad you keep an eye on all this, I don’t. He was on Jimmy Kimmel?


The google is an amazing thing, I can even sub out someone to do a google for me.  And yes apparently POTUS was on Jimmy Kimmel. - that says plenty about the handling and the handlers of our current potus.  Hard hitting journalism and insightful, hard questions are the hallmark of the current late night talk show hosts.


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Camp David accord is probably his biggest accomplishment as President
> Jimmy's post Presidency has been far more productive than his time in office. He's been a great humanitarian.
> Carter was a progressive?
> Wonder how many progressives graduated from the Navel Academy & have a nuclear powered submarine named after them?
> I'm sure AOC is next....


Statue in the Navel Academy --


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Camp David accord is probably his biggest accomplishment as President
> Jimmy's post Presidency has been far more productive than his time in office. He's been a great humanitarian.
> Carter was a progressive?
> Wonder how many progressives graduated from the Navel Academy & have a nuclear powered submarine named after them?
> I'm sure AOC is next....


Think Doobie Brothers . . . and it seems you misunderstood my use of the term progressive and the intended context. It was a comment on the ensuing rhetoric not the peanut farmer, he was a conservative Democrat.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Think Doobie Brothers . . . and it seems you misunderstood my use of the term progressive and the intended context. It was a comment on the ensuing rhetoric not the peanut farmer, he was a conservative Democrat.


Right.....


----------



## watfly (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Trump was Hillary’s fault and Biden Trump’s . . . and Obama was Palin’s.


Probably giving Palin too much credit.  In Obama's defense he presented a positive, hopeful message.  People voted for him in good faith, not anti-Palin.  Unfortunately, he fell short of his promises and drove a bigger wedge in the racial divide.  He blew an amazing opportunity,  He could have been the great uniter.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 16, 2022)

watfly said:


> Probably giving Palin too much credit.  In Obama's defense he presented a positive, hopeful message.  People voted for him in good faith, not anti-Palin.  Unfortunately, he fell short of his promises and drove a bigger wedge in the racial divide.  He blew an amazing opportunity,  He could have been the great uniter.


If anything, a reaction to the Iraq war and the way the Bush admin handled the 2008 crash.


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2022)

watfly said:


> Probably giving Palin too much credit.  In Obama's defense he presented a positive, hopeful message.  People voted for him in good faith, not anti-Palin.  Unfortunately, he fell short of his promises and drove a bigger wedge in the racial divide.  He blew an amazing opportunity,  He could have been the great uniter.


McCain would have won that election without Palin.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> This reads like extortion....
> 
> View attachment 13929
> 
> Biden’s policies have made domestic energy production more difficult and less cost-efficient.  Joe repeatedly promised he would move away from oil & coal while campaigning for President. We get the government we vote for....


Welcome to capitalism!


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Are you better off now than you were four years ago?


Yes


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Welcome to capitalism!


Thanks Daddy! 
Welcome to Joe Bidens form of capitalism...
At least we can purchase gas. Unfortunately the same is not true for baby formula and tampons,


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Yes


Gosh...please share your experience with all of us. thanks in advance!
Nearly 80% of American voters believe their country is currently on the wrong track, you must be part of the twenty%.
PS I take it your not an American still in Afghanistan...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

espola said:


> McCain would have won that election without Palin.


He had my vote until she opened her mouth.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Gosh...please share your experience with all of us. thanks in advance!
> Nearly 80% of American voters believe their country is currently on the wrong track, you must be part of the twenty%.
> PS I take it your not an American still in Afghanistan...


Great deal that was made with the Taliban.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Thanks Daddy!
> Welcome to Joe Bidens form of capitalism...
> At least we can purchase gas. Unfortunately the same is not true for baby formula and tampons,


So you would you prefer more government control of private industry?


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> He had my vote until she opened her mouth.


My brother lives in Alaska, so I asked him about her.  He said it would be fun to watch.


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Thanks Daddy!
> Welcome to Joe Bidens form of capitalism...
> At least we can purchase gas. Unfortunately the same is not true for baby formula and tampons,


The baby formula shortage is mostly due to one private business factory being shut down after some babies got sick and died from the product produced there.  FDA inspections showed that they weren't following their own cleanliness rules.  Are you suggesting the FDA should have let them continue?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

espola said:


> The baby formula shortage is mostly due to one private business factory being shut down after some babies got sick and died from the product produced there.  FDA inspections showed that they weren't following their own cleanliness rules.  Are you suggesting the FDA should have let them continue?


Biden's FDA says they told him of the problem in February...Joe says he didn't hear about it until April...by then it was an emergency.
Clean the fucking plant and get it back on line....


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you would you prefer more government control of private industry?


The logic of a 4th grader...


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Thanks Daddy!
> Welcome to Joe Bidens form of capitalism...
> At least we can purchase gas. Unfortunately the same is not true for baby formula and tampons,


There's no "form" of capitalism........it is what it is.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> He had my vote until she opened her mouth.


Yet you voted for Kamala....


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Gosh...please share your experience with all of us. thanks in advance!
> Nearly 80% of American voters believe their country is currently on the wrong track, you must be part of the twenty%.
> PS I take it your not an American still in Afghanistan...


Are 80% of American voters in Afghanistan?  Did I miss something?

Gas is pretty high, inflation is high, and perhaps I've been able to put myself in a position where these kind of temporary economic uncertainties don't impact me as much as others.  But I also understand these scenarios, like the ones Bush Jr. oversaw, are temporary, and in fact massive opportunities.  I also realize that much of this is outside of the president's control.  The oil companies are just playing games because they know their time is running out.  But go on, stick with your team. 

Go Dubs!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> There's no "form" of capitalism........it is what it is.


Oh...my mistake...
Ignore the list below.
*There are six types of capitalism:* *oligarchic capitalism, state-guided capitalism, corporate capitalism, entrepreneurial capitalism, laissez-faire capitalism, and welfare capitalism*.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Oh...my mistake...
> Ignore the list below.
> *There are six types of capitalism:* *oligarchic capitalism, state-guided capitalism, corporate capitalism, entrepreneurial capitalism, laissez-faire capitalism, and welfare capitalism*.


I don't see a "Biden's form of capitalism"....

but keep going...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Are 80% of American voters in Afghanistan?  Did I miss something?
> 
> Gas is pretty high, inflation is high, and perhaps I've been able to put myself in a position where these kind of temporary economic uncertainties don't impact me as much as others.  But I also understand these scenarios, like the ones Bush Jr. oversaw, are temporary, and in fact massive opportunities.  I also realize that much of this is outside of the president's control.  The oil companies are just playing games because they know their time is running out.  But go on, stick with your team.
> 
> Go Dubs!


"Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
The folks left in Afghanistan when the President Biden ignored his Generals and hauled ass are not better off than they were four years ago...
My team? Well most of the team is suffering from inflation. the open border, the fentanyl poisoning of thousands, woke DA's refusing to prosecute criminals and a ineffectual and seemingly rudderless President.
Go Giants!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I don't see a "Biden's form of capitalism"....
> 
> but keep going...


A minute ago you claiming only one form, now your complaining Biden isn't specifically named....
Read Daddy, you seem to be well educated, if not a bit snooty. But being from from NorCal explains that.
Gotta think, Biden's capitalism brought on this "transitory inflation"


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
> The folks left in Afghanistan when the President Biden ignored his Generals and hauled ass are not better off than they were four years ago...
> My team? Well most of the team is suffering from inflation. the open border, the fentanyl poisoning of thousands, woke DA's refusing to prosecute criminals and a ineffectual and seemingly rudderless President.
> Go Giants!


Well thank goodness you are able to afford Internet access and able to post on an Internet forum pretty much throughout the day.  

But keep going.....


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> A minute ago you claiming only one form, now your complaining Biden isn't specifically named....
> Read Daddy, you seem to be well educated, if not a bit snooty. But being from from NorCal explains that.
> Gotta think, Biden's capitalism brought on this "transitory inflation"


Oh, so Biden capitalism is a thing?  Can you tell me how that differs from state-guided capitalism?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Well thank goodness you are able to afford Internet access and able to post on an Internet forum pretty much throughout the day.
> 
> But keep going.....


Thanks for the go ahead....

When I said my team I meant most of America you pompous ass....
I can certainly afford to post on "an internet forum" whenever I please...but thanks for keeping track of me you creepy little bitch.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Thanks for the go ahead....
> 
> When I said my team I meant most of America you pompous ass....
> I can certainly afford to post on "an internet forum" whenever I please...but thanks for keeping track of me you creepy little bitch.


Well played.  Creativity 10/10.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh, so Biden capitalism is a thing?  Can you tell me how that differs from state-guided capitalism?


Joe's more a welfare capitalist.....


----------



## espola (Jun 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Oh...my mistake...
> Ignore the list below.
> *There are six types of capitalism:* *oligarchic capitalism, state-guided capitalism, corporate capitalism, entrepreneurial capitalism, laissez-faire capitalism, and welfare capitalism*.


Where did you steal that from?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"
> The folks left in Afghanistan when the President Biden ignored his Generals and hauled ass are not better off than they were four years ago...
> My team? Well most of the team is suffering from inflation. the open border, the fentanyl poisoning of thousands, woke DA's refusing to prosecute criminals and a ineffectual and seemingly rudderless President.
> Go Giants!


Again, Great deal that was made with the Taliban.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe's more a welfare capitalist.....


You are starting to remind me of dizzy izzy claiming he couldn’t make a dime during the entire 8 years of Obama’s presidency. He moaned and whined even as things got better over time.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are starting to remind me of dizzy izzy claiming he couldn’t make a dime during the entire 8 years of Obama’s presidency. He moaned and whined even as things got better over time.


Where did I claim I couldn't make a dime? You like Joe Biden just make shit up.
You obtuse piece of waste. Read the conversation Daddy and I had, then shut the fuck up.
I'm at a point in my life where I make more money than I need. I can afford the extra $600.00 a month that inflation is adding to our lives.
Fortunately I don't have need for baby formula, and unlike yourself, I have no need for tampons...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 17, 2022)

espola said:


> Where did you steal that from?


Business 101


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Where did I claim I couldn't make a dime? You like Joe Biden just make shit up.
> You obtuse piece of waste. Read the conversation Daddy and I had, then shut the fuck up.
> I'm at a point in my life where I make more money than I need. I can afford the extra $600.00 a month that inflation is adding to our lives.
> Fortunately I don't have need for baby formula, and unlike yourself, I have no need for tampons...


Reread what I posted, I was referring to dizzy’s claim not yours. I’m glad you are doing well so am I, never had it so well.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Reread what I posted, I was referring to dizzy’s claim not yours. I’m glad you are doing well so am I, never had it so well.


_You are starting to remind me of dizzy..._


----------



## watfly (Jun 17, 2022)

Just FYI for all the armchair economists, the US is not a capitalist economy.   It's considered a mixed economy, part capitalism and part socialism.  The oil industry has elements of capitalism but is heavy regulated, arguably one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 17, 2022)

watfly said:


> Just FYI for all the armchair economists, the US is not a capitalist economy.   It's considered a mixed economy, part capitalism and part socialism.  The oil industry has elements of capitalism but is heavy regulated, arguably one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US.


Or in the socialism vein, one could re-word to (where a tax "break" is a euphemism for government subsidies)

The oil industry has elements of capitalism but is heavy _subsidized_, arguably one of the most heavily _subsidized _industries in the US.


----------



## watfly (Jun 17, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Or in the socialism vein, one could re-word to (where a tax "break" is a euphemism for government subsidies)
> 
> The oil industry has elements of capitalism but is heavy _subsidized_, arguably one of the most heavily _subsidized _industries in the US.


Exactly, that's another socialist aspect of it and wisely so since our country is dependent on oil (there is certainly a case to be made for how much is reasonable). I wonder on a scale which would be heavier, the cost of regulation and bureaucratic red tape, or the benefit of subsidies.  I don't know that answer...I don't know if anyone does.  Keep in mind that a lot of the oil subsidies are not direct to oil producers but often to consumers like farmers or the government.

Do you think it would be a good idea to get rid of, or drastically reduce oil subsidies at this point in time?


----------



## espola (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> _You are starting to remind me of dizzy..._


"dizzy Izzy".


----------



## espola (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Business 101


Or --









						The 6 Types of Capitalism (With Examples)
					

There are six types of capitalism: oligarchic capitalism, state-guided capitalism, corporate capitalism, entrepreneurial capitalism, laissez-faire capitalism, and welfare capitalism. Capitalism describes any economic system that is based around the private ownership of capital. It’s usually




					helpfulprofessor.com


----------



## whatithink (Jun 17, 2022)

watfly said:


> Exactly, that's another socialist aspect of it and wisely so since our country is dependent on oil (there is certainly a case to be made for how much is reasonable). I wonder on a scale which would be heavier, the cost of regulation and bureaucratic red tape, or the benefit of subsidies.  I don't know that answer...I don't know if anyone does.  Keep in mind that a lot of the oil subsidies are not direct to oil producers but often to consumers like farmers or the government.
> 
> Do you think it would be a good idea to get rid of, or drastically reduce oil subsidies at this point in time?


If the industry is critical to national security, e.g. defense, energy, or food security, then I want the government to "participate" - that's their job. If that involves government subsidies, i.e. our money, then it should have conditions attached. TBH, I expect that the defense industry is "subsidized" to a far larger extent than the oil industry.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> _You are starting to remind me of dizzy..._


That whole post of mine illustrates Izzy’s antics. The only reference to you was that your whining about the economy was starting to remind me of his incessant moans not the same exact verbatim words. Just the tone. It’s like old times me explaining everything, every nuance to you . . . and you still don’t get it.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> That whole post of mine illustrates Izzy’s antics. The only reference to you was that your whining about the economy was starting to remind me of his incessant moans not the same exact verbatim words. Just the tone. It’s like old times me explaining everything, every nuance to you . . . and you still don’t get it.


You having to explain everything is revealing.
You wouldn't know nuance if it kicked you in the puss...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 17, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You having to explain everything is revealing.
> You wouldn't know nuance if it kicked you in the puss...


I’m glad you admit that.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 17, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’m glad you admit that.


Admit what?
I'm not admitting anything...I am pointing out some of your weaknesses


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 18, 2022)

177 year old man falls off bike


----------



## watfly (Jun 18, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> 177 year old man falls off bike


I have exclusive video.









						Laugh-In Tricycle on Make a GIF
					

_premium




					makeagif.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 18, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> 177 year old man falls off bike


He's using toe clips.  Who even uses those anymore? What a moron.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 18, 2022)

*Strike 1.*

Joe Biden trips three times while boarding Air Force One - YouTube


*Strike 2.*

Joe Biden trips up plane stairs on his way to Summit of the Americas - YouTube * 

Strike 3.*

Joe Biden falls off bike while cycling in Delaware - YouTube


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 18, 2022)

Make him and the sword swallower go away.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 19, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> *Strike 1.*
> 
> Joe Biden trips three times while boarding Air Force One - YouTube
> 
> ...


Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag.


----------



## watfly (Jun 19, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag.


I don't necessarily disagree.  However, people are pissed off at his disastrous policies (or lack thereof) and his complete lack of accountability (including in some cases blaming the public), so people are going to lash out.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 19, 2022)

I mean unpatriotic is a tad extreme , did we completely forget 2016-2020?

SNL entire shtick has been to make fun of R presidents


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 19, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag.


Laughing at a pratfall and burning the American flag are not on the same scale...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 19, 2022)

Chevy Chase burning the flag....


----------



## whatithink (Jun 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Chevy Chase burning the flag....


Season 1, 1975 - after 47 years, it's probably time to move on, just saying.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 19, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Season 1, 1975 - after 47 years, it's probably time to move on, just saying.


I'm laughing at the humor, SNL laughing at Gerald Ford stumbling about...is not unpatriotic.
BURNING THE FLAG IS. JUST SAYING.....
Pointing out Joe Biden stumbling through life is FUNNY. It's not like burning the flag.
Ragging on the folks in Washington has been going on since 1776. Geezzzzusss.


----------



## espola (Jun 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I'm laughing at the humor, SNL laughing at Gerald Ford stumbling about...is not unpatriotic.
> BURNING THE FLAG IS. JUST SAYING.....
> Pointing out Joe Biden stumbling through life is FUNNY. It's not like burning the flag.
> Ragging on the folks in Washington has been going on since 1776. Geezzzzusss.


Snowflake.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 19, 2022)

espola said:


> Snowflake.


Douchebag.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 19, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I'm laughing at the humor, SNL laughing at Gerald Ford stumbling about...is not unpatriotic.
> BURNING THE FLAG IS. JUST SAYING.....
> Pointing out Joe Biden stumbling through life is FUNNY. It's not like burning the flag.
> Ragging on the folks in Washington has been going on since 1776. Geezzzzusss.


Burning the flag is a constitutional right I thought, people get too wrapped up in symbolism. Better to burn the flag to express displeasure with the government than, idk, killing a police officer on the steps of congress while waving the flag.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 19, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Burning the flag is a constitutional right I thought, people get too wrapped up in symbolism. Better to burn the flag to express displeasure with the government than, idk, killing a police officer on the steps of congress while waving the flag.


So is making fun of the President...I was responding to this bit of wisdom complaining about Biden being laughed at... 
_Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag._
Murdering police officers was never part of the post I was responding about...


----------



## tenacious (Jun 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> So is making fun of the President...I was responding to this bit of wisdom complaining about Biden being laughed at...
> _Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag._
> Murdering police officers was never part of the post I was responding about...


What I'm saying is burning the flag and publicly delighting when the leader of your people falls on his face are both constitutionally protected actions. However just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. It seems like the internet has blurred a lot of societies lines, and it would be nice if we could go back to the days where it was considered rude to treat each other like assholes.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 20, 2022)

tenacious said:


> What I'm saying is burning the flag and publicly delighting when the leader of your people falls on his face are both constitutionally protected actions. However just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. It seems like the internet has blurred a lot of societies lines, and it would be nice if we could go back to the days where it was considered rude to openly act like an assholes.


There I fixed it for you.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 20, 2022)

tenacious said:


> What I'm saying is burning the flag and publicly delighting when the leader of your people falls on his face are both constitutionally protected actions. However just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. It seems like the internet has blurred a lot of societies lines, and it would be nice if we could go back to the days where it was considered rude to treat each other like assholes.


I agree with the sentiment, but when exactly were those days? I think the internet has lifted the curtain on what was already there.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 20, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but when exactly were those days? I think the internet has lifted the curtain on what was already there.


Most people still can distinguish between in person and online. For others the lines have blurred and for others still, we don’t need to change “our act”.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but when exactly were those days? I think the internet has lifted the curtain on what was already there.


The supposed anonymity of on-line postings encourages cowards to act like tough guys.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 20, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Most people still can distinguish between in person and online. For others the lines have blurred and for others still, we don’t need to change “our act”.


The "lifting of the curtain" allows people who would lie in person to be a true reflection of themselves online, and it's not that pretty. The reminiscing to better days, is just a rose tinted glasses view in many cases. Its very in line with the "Make America Great Again" line. I've yet to understand when the "again" refers to, or more specifically which particular time period or time someone wants to go back to.


----------



## watfly (Jun 20, 2022)

tenacious said:


> What I'm saying is burning the flag and publicly delighting when the leader of your people falls on his face are both constitutionally protected actions. However just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. It seems like the internet has blurred a lot of societies lines, and it would be nice if we could go back to the days where it was considered rude to treat each other like assholes.


The concept of taking the high road seems to be a lost in today's society.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 20, 2022)

Wonder if the President is aware that fentanyl is killing about 300 people a day here in America....
Fentanyl seizures at the southern border increased nearly 60% in March of this year over last March.
According to the CDC, fentanyl has killed more people aged 18 to 45 since 2020 than COVID, car accidents, and suicides...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 20, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The "lifting of the curtain" allows people who would lie in person to be a true reflection of themselves online, and it's not that pretty. The reminiscing to better days, is just a rose tinted glasses view in many cases. Its very in line with the "Make America Great Again" line. I've yet to understand when the "again" refers to, or more specifically which particular time period or time someone wants to go back to.


I have asked that question as well and it is an idealized era that never existed.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 20, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The "lifting of the curtain" allows people who would lie in person to be a true reflection of themselves online, and it's not that pretty. The reminiscing to better days, is just a rose tinted glasses view in many cases. Its very in line with the "Make America Great Again" line. I've yet to understand when the "again" refers to, or more specifically which particular time period or time someone wants to go back to.


Reminiscing?
What makes you think we have to "go back" anywhere? 
Move forward in manufacturing, producing energy, leading the world in space exploration, scientific discovery and leading the free world as we once did...
Besides Marty McFly and Doc who wants to go back in time?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2022)

espola said:


> The supposed anonymity of on-line postings encourages cowards to act like tough guys.


The irony in your post..

Calling people pussies and blowhards, as if you would do that face to face.


----------



## whatithink (Jun 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Reminiscing?
> What makes you think we have to "go back" anywhere?
> Move forward in manufacturing, producing energy, leading the world in space exploration, scientific discovery and leading the free world as we once did...
> Besides Marty McFly and Doc who wants to go back in time?


The premise of "again" is comparing to sometime in the past. We don't have to go back to achieve that, but what time are we looking to compare to. Was there a truly global economy, as there is now? Was China a global economic player, as they are now? Was India a growing global economic power, as they are now?

Obviously we should look to grow manufacturing, strive for energy independence and be a leader in sustainable energy production, nobody is developing and funding a 20-30 space exploration plan - but we should, we do scientific discovery - and we also educate the brightest worldwide who go back to their countries to do the same; leading the free world, well we'll use others and they'll use us - people still want to come here for the opportunities - to lead we should elect someone people would follow; all of us would be a good start - so idk, maybe by the 2032 election cycle we could nominate a couple of candidates that run on policy and that everyone (most at least) can get behind once elected .... doubt it though.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> The irony in your post..
> 
> Calling people pussies and blowhards, as if you would do that face to face.


That was framed as a question -- "are you just a blowhard pussy?"

Have you decided on your answer yet?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 20, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The premise of "again" is comparing to sometime in the past. We don't have to go back to achieve that, but what time are we looking to compare to. Was there a truly global economy, as there is now? Was China a global economic player, as they are now? Was India a growing global economic power, as they are now?
> 
> Obviously we should look to grow manufacturing, strive for energy independence and be a leader in sustainable energy production, nobody is developing and funding a 20-30 space exploration plan - but we should, we do scientific discovery - and we also educate the brightest worldwide who go back to their countries to do the same; leading the free world, well we'll use others and they'll use us - people still want to come here for the opportunities - to lead we should elect someone people would follow; all of us would be a good start - so idk, maybe by the 2032 election cycle we could nominate a couple of candidates that run on policy and that everyone (most at least) can get behind once elected .... doubt it though.


I agree with much of what your saying...but...
Lets thank Nixon for opening up China...then...
Who decided to send much of our manufacturing to China?
Why do we buy crop fertilizer from Russia? 
We should_ again_ lead, not follow.
As far as candidates go...when the people nominate and elect the likes of Trump & Biden, the people get what they deserve...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2022)

espola said:


> That was framed as a question -- "are you just a blowhard pussy?"
> 
> Have you decided on your answer yet?


As usual you're wrong.


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> As usual you're wrong.
> View attachment 13967


Let's look into the exchange a little deeper.  After your repeated exhibitions of illogical enthusiasm for cryoto-currency investments, I asked if you were actually investing in them or were you just a blowhard pussy.  Your response included "Prove it".  I asked if you wanted me to prove you are a blowhard pussy.






						Bitcoin
					

Slowly moving up.  It's just ranging between the support (green) and three different resistance (yellow) lines. It's been bouncing at support, then rejected by any of the three resistances over and over and over.... If it continues like this until the end of the triangles, it would be around Aug...



					www.socalsoccer.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2022)

espola said:


> Let's look into the exchange a little deeper.  After your repeated exhibitions of illogical enthusiasm for cryoto-currency investments, I asked if you were actually investing in them or were you just a blowhard pussy.  Your response included "Prove it".  I asked if you wanted me to prove you are a blowhard pussy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like you posted.. that keyboard makes people brave.

Like I posted.. the irony is lost on you since you would never say that..question or not, to someone, anyone.

But since you believe yourself to be never wrong you'll try to convince yourself that you're right. 

You're pathetic and remind me a lot of Joe Biden. Clueless, myopic and lost. And you bring that all upon yourself.

BTW... do you need some Salt on your Hash?


----------



## espola (Jun 20, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Like you posted.. that keyboard makes people brave.
> 
> Like I posted.. the irony is lost on you since you would never say that..question or not, to someone, anyone.
> 
> ...


Have you decided on your answer yet?


----------



## whatithink (Jun 20, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I agree with much of what your saying...but...
> Lets thank Nixon for opening up China...then...
> Who decided to send much of our manufacturing to China?
> Why do we buy crop fertilizer from Russia?
> ...


The (unfortunate) answer is the global economy or more to the point, that corporations want the cheapest inputs for the highest outputs to maximize profits and share prices. We (well, those shareholders among us) like that as we watch our nest eggs grow. When our elections cost billions, and our politicians are surfing the gravy train, nothing is likely to change. They need to keep enough people happy (enough) and stoke enough culture crap to keep people from realizing ... and now I'm sounding like a conspiracy nutball!!!

Yeah, Trump or Clinton or Biden - Pence or Kaine or Harris - ffs even the heartbeats away suck!


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 20, 2022)

espola said:


> Have you decided on your answer yet?


I have. I've decided you're a liar. But that's not new news... oh, you're also a hypocrite.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I have. I've decided you're a liar. But that's not new news... oh, you're also a hypocrite.


How much have you lost on your cryptocurrency investments?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 21, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I agree with much of what your saying...but...
> Lets thank Nixon for opening up China...then...
> Who decided to send much of our manufacturing to China?
> Why do we buy crop fertilizer from Russia?
> ...


Sanders was the right vote for sure.  To this day it still amazes me how people missed this.  Literally most of Trump's voters would have benefited from a Sanders presidency.  He looks out for the working class.  Problem is all the nutjob MAGAs wouldn't be able see past the word "socialism", let alone define it.  They just believe it's a bad word.  No way Sanders wins against Trump.  Unless we change our voting process and reform campaign donations via lobbying groups, we're stuck with the neoliberals and, well, whatever the disgraceful republican party is today.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> How much have you lost on your cryptocurrency investments?


Really? You have no concept do you. I'll ask the question again. If someone purchased 3k worth of a crypto at .06 then sold it all at .85 how much did they lose? Answer: nothing. They made money. Here's another one. An investor buys 10k worth at $6 and sells at $8, how much dod they lose? Can you do that math or do you need more Salt on your Hash again?


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Really? You have no concept do you. I'll ask the question again. If someone purchased 3k worth of a crypto at .06 then sold it all at .85 how much did they lose? Answer: nothing. They made money. Here's another one. An investor buys 10k worth at $6 and sells at $8, how much dod they lose? Can you do that math or do you need more Salt on your Hash again?


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Sanders was the right vote for sure.  To this day it still amazes me how people missed this.  Literally most of Trump's voters would have benefited from a Sanders presidency.  He looks out for the working class.  Problem is all the nutjob MAGAs wouldn't be able see past the word "socialism", let alone define it.  They just believe it's a bad word.  No way Sanders wins against Trump.  Unless we change our voting process and reform campaign donations via lobbying groups, we're stuck with the neoliberals and, well, whatever the disgraceful republican party is today.


Sanders is to the left what Trump is to the right....
I wouldn't vote for either one.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


Do you need any Salt on your Hash? You gonna answer that?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> You didn't answer the question.


You there? Are you gonna answer me? Do you need more Salt on your Hash? Are you struggling today? Oops.. that's a rhetorical question.

So. Do you need more Salt on your Hash?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You there? Are you gonna answer me? Do you need more Salt on your Hash? Are you struggling today? Oops.. that's a rhetorical question.
> 
> So. Do you need more Salt on your Hash?


Oddly enough, I don't think Salt cared much for Magoo...


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Oddly enough, I don't think Salt cared much for Magoo...


When Salt and I meet, we are polite to each other.  Our children played soccer at the same high school and we have each followed the other's families on FB.  We disagree on matters of politics, but Salt was for the most part a reasonable debater.

I have no idea what MS means by "Salt on your Hash", but I don't understand a lot of what he posts.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> When Salt and I meet, we are polite to each other.  Our children played soccer at the same high school and we have each followed the other's families on FB.  We disagree on matters of politics, but Salt was for the most part a reasonable debater.
> 
> I have no idea what MS means by "Salt on your Hash", but I don't understand a lot of what he posts.


Finally. An admission by the self proclaimed Cryptographer that he doesn't know what I mean by Salt or Hash. Well old man.. if you were a Crytographer worth his salt you would know as they are common terms used by real Crytographers. You can add phony to your resume now...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Oddly enough, I don't think Salt cared much for Magoo...


Most don't.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> When Salt and I meet, we are polite to each other.  Our children played soccer at the same high school and we have each followed the other's families on FB.  We disagree on matters of politics, but Salt was for the most part a reasonable debater.
> 
> I have no idea what MS means by "Salt on your Hash", but I don't understand a lot of what he posts.











						11 Basic Encryption Terms Everyone Should Know by Now
					

Everyone's talking about encryption, but finding yourself lost or confused? Here are some key encryption terms you need to know.




					www.makeuseof.com


----------



## watfly (Jun 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Sanders was the right vote for sure.  To this day it still amazes me how people missed this.  Literally most of Trump's voters would have benefited from a Sanders presidency.  He looks out for the working class.  Problem is all the nutjob MAGAs wouldn't be able see past the word "socialism", let alone define it.  They just believe it's a bad word.  No way Sanders wins against Trump.  Unless we change our voting process and reform campaign donations via lobbying groups, we're stuck with the neoliberals and, well, whatever the disgraceful republican party is today.


This Sanders?  How'd that work out in SF?  Can't fathom nationwide.









						Bernie says he'll follow in Boudin's 'no cash bail' footsteps if he becomes president
					

It's no secret Bernie Sanders is a big fan of San Francisco's new district attorney Chesa...




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 21, 2022)

watfly said:


> This Sanders?  How'd that work out in SF?  Can't fathom nationwide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A nationwide recall....


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> How much have you lost on your cryptocurrency investments?


You never answered. How's your 401k doing?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 21, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Sanders is to the left what Trump is to the right....
> I wouldn't vote for either one.


There are no parallels there.  But, you're just proving my point that we are unlikely to see a major shift in a candidate in the foreseeable future.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Finally. An admission by the self proclaimed Cryptographer that he doesn't know what I mean by Salt or Hash. Well old man.. if you were a Crytographer worth his salt you would know as they are common terms used by real Crytographers. You can add phony to your resume now...


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You never answered. How's your 401k doing?


My 401(k) did quite well before I liquidated it into a mix of IRAs, real estate investments, savings accounts, and other financial instruments.  I see my best investments of all were seeing that my children all started out their adult lives with a little cash and no significant debt.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> There are no parallels there.  But, you're just proving my point that we are unlikely to see a major shift in a candidate in the foreseeable future.


You see what you want to see Daddy...I see polar opposites...neither one will be elected.
Trump will go to jail and Bernie will continue moving left, that will put an end to that nonsense
If Biden runs again it will be a miracle...If Joe completes his term it will be nothing short of a miracle
PS: If the far left think they can win a national election with Bernie, by all means run him...


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 21, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> You see what you want to see Daddy...I see polar opposites...neither one will be elected.
> Trump will go to jail and Bernie will continue moving left, that will put an end to that nonsense
> If Biden runs again it will be a miracle...If Joe completes his term it will be nothing short of a miracle
> PS: If the far left think they can win a national election with Bernie, by all means run him...


If the dems thought they could win with Sanders they would have.  Ergo, we have Biden.  They were right I suppose. 

No politician gets everything right, but Sanders does care about the people.  The neoliberals and republicans don't care about anyone but themselves.  Those folks are looking for their piece of the pie, while Sanders is making sure everyone has a piece or at least access to the pie. 
Not every policy he has is right, but if it's not clear we need some changes in this country.  With neoliberals and republicans it's just a race to the bottom.


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> If the dems thought they could win with Sanders they would have.  Ergo, we have Biden.  They were right I suppose.
> 
> No politician gets everything right, but Sanders does care about the people.  The neoliberals and republicans don't care about anyone but themselves.  Those folks are looking for their piece of the pie, while Sanders is making sure everyone has a piece or at least access to the pie.
> Not every policy he has is right, but if it's not clear we need some changes in this country.  With neoliberals and republicans it's just a race to the bottom.


The best place for Sanders is in the Senate, where he can stake out a position without worrying about Presidential re-election chances.  His Vermont supporters fall into two broad generalities -- liberals who appreciate his socialist leanings, and working-class people who benefit directly from policies he supports.

Just by accident, I found out that one of Sanders's key staff members was someone I knew as a child -- he lived just down the street from me for 8 years.  We got in contact after a FB post I made that showed his father, the local doctor, claimed to work 112 hours per week on the 1950 census (that's 16 hours a day, 7 days a week).  We joked that almost everyone in Vermont feels like they know Bernie personally.


----------



## watfly (Jun 21, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> If the dems thought they could win with Sanders they would have.  Ergo, we have Biden.  They were right I suppose.
> 
> No politician gets everything right, but Sanders does care about the people.  The neoliberals and republicans don't care about anyone but themselves.  Those folks are looking for their piece of the pie, while Sanders is making sure everyone has a piece or at least access to the pie.
> Not every policy he has is right, but if it's not clear we need some changes in this country.  With neoliberals and republicans it's just a race to the bottom.


Bernie's platform sounds awesome.  Free medicare, free college, free child care, free Pre-K, eliminate all medical debt, eliminate all student debt, guaranteed housing for all, guaranteed employment for all.   Bernie is a "free loaders" wet dream.   If anyone knows how to mooch off the government (or actually taxpayers) it is Bernie.  I believe he is sincere in his beliefs, maybe more so than most politicians, he is just clueless regarding the feasibility of his proposed policies.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> My 401(k) did quite well before I liquidated it into a mix of IRAs, real estate investments, savings accounts, and other financial instruments.  I see my best investments of all were seeing that my children all started out their adult lives with a little cash and no significant debt.


And how's that real estate looking these days? How much have you lost?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> And how's that real estate looking these days? How much have you lost?


Your type people, angry, spiteful, always aggrieved and constantly acting the victim of some vast left wing conspiracy.

The harassment went beyond the digital realm. Trump supporters broke into the home of Raffensperger's daughter-in-law, who is a widow with two children, Raffensperger testified.









						Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said his wife received 'disgusting' sexualized texts after he refused to cave to Trump's election pressure
					

The Georgia official testified to the January 6 committee that the former president's supporters also broke into his daughter-in-law's house.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> And how's that real estate looking these days? How much have you lost?d


It was all disposed of long ago.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your type people, angry, spiteful, always aggrieved and constantly acting the victim of some vast left wing conspiracy.
> 
> The harassment went beyond the digital realm. Trump supporters broke into the home of Raffensperger's daughter-in-law, who is a widow with two children, Raffensperger testified.
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about? Good lord you must be on another bender...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> It was all disposed of long ago.


So no 401k, no property, maybe an IRA and "other" financial instruments.  Sounds like a great way to retire... said no one ever.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your type people, angry, spiteful, always aggrieved and constantly acting the victim of some vast left wing conspiracy.
> 
> The harassment went beyond the digital realm. Trump supporters broke into the home of Raffensperger's daughter-in-law, who is a widow with two children, Raffensperger testified.
> 
> ...


And what the hell is "your type people"? I know you like to disparage women but now your a racist too?


----------



## espola (Jun 21, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So no 401k, no property, maybe an IRA and "other" financial instruments.  Sounds like a great way to retire... said no one ever.


No house payments, no car payments, credit cards paid off every month, affordable and complete medical insurance, and money in the bank.  I never imagined it would be this simple.

Even the IRS has backed away (at least for now) on their claims for more taxes on my 2017 income.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 21, 2022)

espola said:


> No house payments, no car payments, credit cards paid off every month, affordable and complete medical insurance, and money in the bank.  I never imagined it would be this simple.
> 
> Even the IRS has backed away (at least for now) on their claims for more taxes on my 2017 income.


So you sold your property prior to this current (2021) real estate climate. I guess your timing was off.. and if your living off of savings your losing money to inflation. Again..not a good plan. But having your house paid off ( if I recall you're in a condo) is rarely a bad thing...


----------



## tenacious (Jun 22, 2022)

The gas tax holiday always seemed like a gimmick to me anyway. But I do think it's worth noting, as a centrist, that for all the pandering Biden did the far left didn't show up for him at all. You can't work with those people. 









						Biden announces a likely doomed gas tax holiday
					

The White House is looking for ways to help lower pain at the pump. But congressional Democratic leaders already have dismissed the holiday idea.




					www.politico.com


----------



## tenacious (Jun 22, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but when exactly were those days? I think the internet has lifted the curtain on what was already there.


I can't point to an exact date, but sometime in the 90's... the typical American POV on the 1st Amendment went from being a right Americans saw as sacred; into the boring / dusty thing, that folks today think is ruining the internet.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 22, 2022)

watfly said:


> The concept of taking the high road seems to be a lost in today's society.


Exactly!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 22, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Your type people, angry, spiteful, always aggrieved and constantly acting the victim of some vast left wing conspiracy.
> 
> The harassment went beyond the digital realm. Trump supporters broke into the home of Raffensperger's daughter-in-law, who is a widow with two children, Raffensperger testified.
> 
> ...


"your type people"....?

You sound like a bigoted idiot.
While you're probably not a bigot, you are an idiot.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 22, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I can't point to an exact date, but sometime in the 90's... the typical American POV on the 1st Amendment went from being a right Americans saw as sacred; into the boring / dusty thing, that folks today think is ruining the internet.


It was actually partially the right's fault when they went to the Supreme Court to get an exemption for the flag to protect flag burning and when they came out against movies, like The Last Temptation, which they thought were blasphemous.   On the left there was Al Gore's wife and the rap records.

As they say....it's either all o.k., or none of it is.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 22, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> And how's that real estate looking these days? How much have you lost?


It's interesting.  I heard from my first supervisee a few days ago.  Left the law to go into real estate almost 15 years ago now.  He specializes is UMC DINK mini mansion housing.  He's calling everyone he knows to try and drum up business.  Haven't spoken since prepandemic so we got to chatting...it may just be his particular market but he basically says the bottom has dropped out and it's generally much much worse than the media has acknowledged and he's far more worried than he was in 2008.  Again, might just be given his market sliver but his sense of it is the middle middle class market is getting hit just as hard....it's like the titanic where the iceberg has hit but people still don't see it going down....will when those adjustables start defaulting he says.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 22, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's interesting.  I heard from my first supervisee a few days ago.  Left the law to go into real estate almost 15 years ago now.  He specializes is UMC DINK mini mansion housing.  He's calling everyone he knows to try and drum up business.  Haven't spoken since prepandemic so we got to chatting...it may just be his particular market but he basically says the bottom has dropped out and it's generally much much worse than the media has acknowledged and he's far more worried than he was in 2008.  Again, might just be given his market sliver but his sense of it is the middle middle class market is getting hit just as hard....it's like the titanic where the iceberg has hit but people still don't see it going down....will when those adjustables start defaulting he says.


I have many family members who are heavily involved in the real estate market. My nephew in Austin has said that his repeat customers is down 40/50% as people have stopped investing in houses. A few of the guys I ride with are also real estate investors but are now trying to liquidate some of their holdings but are not seeing much action, even with them lowering their properties substantially.  One of the common feelings is that we are nowhere near the bottom, but that when that bottom is reached it's the people with cash that will be doing all the buying.


----------



## tenacious (Jun 23, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It was actually partially the right's fault when they went to the Supreme Court to get an exemption for the flag to protect flag burning and when they came out against movies, like The Last Temptation, which they thought were blasphemous.   On the left there was Al Gore's wife and the rap records.
> 
> As they say....it's either all o.k., or none of it is.


Haha... Al and Tipper. Now they are divorced and Prince (I think it was his song lyrics?) is now considered a national treasure. The world works in mysterious ways.

I do think you're onto something with the Supreme Court rulings having an influence Grace. I was also going to blame the end of the cold war. Freedom of speech is wildly more important when there is a threat of someone taking it away.  Where as in an American dominated world where freedom rings... well 'freedom of speech' is just another 'right' that folks feel they are owed.

Here we have freedom of speech, and with the power of the internet now can the ability share thoughts and ideas across boarders and time zones; and the best we seem to be able to do with it is scream and yell at each other. What a waste.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Haha... Al and Tipper. Now they are divorced and Prince (I think it was his song lyrics?) is now considered a national treasure. The world works in mysterious ways.
> 
> I do think you're onto something with the Supreme Court rulings having an influence Grace. I was also going to blame the end of the cold war. Freedom of speech is wildly more important when there is a threat of someone taking it away.  Where as in an American dominated world where freedom rings... well 'freedom of speech' is just another 'right' that folks feel they are owed.
> 
> Here we have freedom of speech, and with the power of the internet now can the ability share thoughts and ideas across boarders and time zones; and the best we seem to be able to do with it is scream and yell at each other. What a waste.


They need to keep us occupied blaming each other to save their own skin.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Haha... Al and Tipper. Now they are divorced and Prince (I think it was his song lyrics?) is now considered a national treasure. The world works in mysterious ways.
> 
> I do think you're onto something with the Supreme Court rulings having an influence Grace. I was also going to blame the end of the cold war. Freedom of speech is wildly more important when there is a threat of someone taking it away.  Where as in an American dominated world where freedom rings... well 'freedom of speech' is just another 'right' that folks feel they are owed.
> 
> Here we have freedom of speech, and with the power of the internet now can the ability share thoughts and ideas across boarders and time zones; and the best we seem to be able to do with it is scream and yell at each other. What a waste.


Well only certain people have freedom of speech on the internet. They other people get fact checked...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13987


Is that you on the left? That's a rhetorical question.. we know you're on the left.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Is that you on the left? That's a rhetorical question.. we know you're on the left.


I don’t always vote Republican, but when I do they are the right person for the job . . . not the person I want to put on shirts, hats, flags, banners, tattooed on me and praise as if they were the second coming.


----------



## watfly (Jun 23, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Here we have freedom of speech, and with the power of the internet now can the ability share thoughts and ideas across boarders and time zones; and the best we seem to be able to do with it is scream and yell at each other. What a waste.


While the internet does provide a easy and anonymous forum to scream and yell at each other, the access to information (even if some of it is misinformation) far outweighs the negative impact of public conflict.  Misinformation and conflict has always been out there it just used to spread a lot slower and maybe not get in the mainstream.  This biggest issue I see is that the right to free speech has been superseded by the right "not to be offended" which I can't seem to find in the Constitution.  I'm a free speech absolutist, they way I look at is if someone is burning an American flag or waving a Nazi flag, I want them out in the public and not hiding in the shadows.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant.  Of course there is a discussion to be had about rights vs. responsibilities.

The biggest difference I see between "then and now" is the lack of tolerance of opposing opinions.  Good faith debate used to be more prevalent, now an opposing opinion is met with insults and claims of "ism" or cries to be silenced.  There seems to be a trend for many that if you have one particular opinion (or voted for a certain person) then you meet a checklist of other opinions, when in fact most people are far more nuanced and moderate and not purely partisan.  We have a habit of placing people in boxes which this forum so clearly illustrates.   The most hard fought issues are those that are emotional causes that often have little to do with substance, common sense or reality.  

The apparent death in journalism hasn't helped the situation either.  In the place of accuracy and substance we get journalists that want to be the first to report with a focus on emotion and promoting conflict.  Posting Tweets for a story has now become a prominent form of journalism.  Obviously, the line between news and punditry has been completely destroyed.

We have a lot more in common, than politics but some are deciding friendships based solely on politics.  That's crazy.  The good news is I'm seeing a recent trend where being a parent is far stronger than whether you are a Dem or Rep.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I don’t always vote Republican, but when I do they are the right person for the job . . . not the person I want to put on shirts, hats, flags, banners, tattooed on me and praise as if they were the second coming.


You're about as partisan as they come. You trying to come off as moderate is like E claiming that he's honest... people know better.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 23, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Policy wise there is a lot I disagree with. But somehow these sort of personal attacks always feel a bit unpatriotic to me. Idk. Same as watching someone burn a flag.


Not " Personal " attacks.

Pointing out the inability of THAT 79 year old " Man " to
conduct/control his own physical/mental actions let alone run an
entire country.
HE DOES NOT BELONG ON THE FIELD " SIDELINE "
COACHING/INSTRUCTING ANYTHING OR ANYONE.

JUST HIS REPUTATION OF  PAST/PRESENT " EPISODES "
INTERACTING WITH YOUNG LADIES/GIRLS WOULD HAVE
VEHEMENTLY DISQUALIFIED HIM FROM EVER PLACING
A FOOT ON ANY SOCCER FIELD EVER.

SHOW ME ONE COACH WHO HAS/HAD HIS REPUTATION THAT
ANY PARENT WOULD ALLOW NEAR THEIR CHILDREN WILLINGLY !

SHOW ME ONE !!!!!


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You're about as partisan as they come. You trying to come off as moderate is like E claiming that he's honest... people know better.


Could you illustrate some of my extreme views that would preclude me from being moderate?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

watfly said:


> While the internet does provide a easy and anonymous forum to scream and yell at each other, the access to information (even if some of it is misinformation) far outweighs the negative impact of public conflict.  Misinformation and conflict has always been out there it just used to spread a lot slower and maybe not get in the mainstream.  This biggest issue I see is that the right to free speech has been superseded by the right "not to be offended" which I can't seem to find in the Constitution.  I'm a free speech absolutist, they way I look at is if someone is burning an American flag or waving a Nazi flag, I want them out in the public and not hiding in the shadows.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant.  Of course there is a discussion to be had about rights vs. responsibilities.
> 
> The biggest difference I see between "then and now" is the lack of tolerance of opposing opinions.  Good faith debate used to be more prevalent, now an opposing opinion is met with insults and claims of "ism" or cries to be silenced.  There seems to be a trend for many that if you have one particular opinion (or voted for a certain person) then you meet a checklist of other opinions, when in fact most people are far more nuanced and moderate and not purely partisan.  We have a habit of placing people in boxes which this forum so clearly illustrates.   The most hard fought issues are those that are emotional causes that often have little to do with substance, common sense or reality.
> 
> ...


When obvious lies are defended as just an “opposing opinion” yes there is an issue. 
And when I have to endure not only the non wavering belief but enshrinement in those lies, again, I take issue.
Also remember many people, myself included, see silence as condoning.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 23, 2022)

“I’d vote for a Republican if they acted like a democrat”


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> When obvious lies are defended as just an “opposing opinion” yes there is an issue.
> And when I have to endure not only the non wavering belief but enshrinement in those lies, again, I take issue.
> Also remember many people, myself included, see silence as condoning.


have You ever thought maybe people don’t give a shit that you consider silence as condoning 

many People don’t want to adhere to whatever standards you have


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> have You ever thought maybe people don’t give a shit that you consider silence as condoning
> 
> many People don’t want to adhere to whatever standards you have


So then why did you bother? Emotional release? You feel better now? Wipe your tears and get back to work, those holes don’t dig themselves! Lol! What a kook.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So then why did you bother? Emotional release? You feel better now? Wipe your tears and get back to work, those holes don’t dig themselves! Lol! What a kook.


perfect response, I love it


I hope you will work on trying to “endure “ all those lies 

I think we do fine in here enduring all of yours , I have confidence you will


----------



## watfly (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> When obvious lies are defended as just an “opposing opinion” yes there is an issue.
> And when I have to endure not only the non wavering belief but enshrinement in those lies, again, I take issue.
> Also remember many people, myself included, see silence as condoning.


Most things aren't that black and white and the most divisive issues in our country are largely emotional, or at least the debate is.  The conflict often times arises because the sides are framed as absolutes, when in reality the vast majority don't want unlimited abortion or unlimited gun ownership, for example.

I hate to break it to you but lies are also protected free speech, so instead of silencing lies,  you have to combat them.  Fights lies with facts, not silence and insults.  When you go the ad hominem route its assumed you've lost the debate.  Lies can also be in the eye of the beholder.  Many considered the Wuhan lab leak to be a lie, when was actually quite possible and may be true.

While there are obvious lies, what is truth or fiction for many people is based upon their life experiences which can vary dramatically from person to person.  That's why its always good to try and stand in someone else's shoes.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I don’t always vote Republican, but when I do they are the right person for the job . . . not the person I want to put on shirts, hats, flags, banners, tattooed on me and praise as if they were the second coming.





Brav520 said:


> “I’d vote for a Republican if they acted like a democrat”


Are you suggesting that only Democrats are the "right person for the job"?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2022)

watfly said:


> Most things aren't that black and white and the most divisive issues in our country are largely emotional, or at least the debate is.  The conflict often times arises because the sides are framed as absolutes, when in reality the vast majority don't want unlimited abortion or unlimited gun ownership, for example.
> 
> I hate to break it to you but lies are also protected free speech, so instead of silencing lies,  you have to combat them.  Fights lies with facts, not silence and insults.  When you go the ad hominem route its assumed you've lost the debate.  Lies can also be in the eye of the beholder.  Many considered the Wuhan lab leak to be a lie, when was actually quite possible and may be true.
> 
> While there are obvious lies, what is truth or fiction for many people is based upon their life experiences which can vary dramatically from person to person.  That's why its always good to try and stand in someone else's shoes.


One of the very disturbing trends is we have politicians pushing tech companies to censor speech. 

Right now a small number of tech companies own/control the main means one communicates on the internet and they are increasingly shutting down contrary opinions, etc. 

A very bad trend. What is worse is a large segment of the population like the fact that certain ideas are shut down. 

The pendulum will eventually shift the other way...and those corporations will shut down the other side. 

We cannot have that.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you illustrate some of my extreme views that would preclude me from being moderate?


All you do is parrot Democrat talking points.
You've called damn near everyone on this site that disagrees with you, bigoted, homophobic,  nazi's, xenophobic and/or whatever the talking point of the week happens to be.
You're a pathetic toad.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> One of the very disturbing trends is we have politicians pushing tech companies to censor speech.
> 
> Right now a small number of tech companies own/control the main means one communicates on the internet and they are increasingly shutting down contrary opinions, etc.
> 
> ...


You're still free to tell your lies here, so what are you complaining about?


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> All you do is parrot Democrat talking points.
> You've called damn near everyone on this site that disagrees with you, bigoted, homophobic,  nazi's, xenophobic and/or whatever the talking point of the week happens to be.
> You're a pathetic toad.


Snowflake.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> perfect response, I love it
> 
> 
> I hope you will work on trying to “endure “ all those lies
> ...


What lies?


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 23, 2022)

watfly said:


> While the internet does provide a easy and anonymous forum to scream and yell at each other, the access to information (even if some of it is misinformation) far outweighs the negative impact of public conflict.  Misinformation and conflict has always been out there it just used to spread a lot slower and maybe not get in the mainstream.  This biggest issue I see is that the right to free speech has been superseded by the right "not to be offended" which I can't seem to find in the Constitution.  I'm a free speech absolutist, they way I look at is if someone is burning an American flag or waving a Nazi flag, I want them out in the public and not hiding in the shadows.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant.  Of course there is a discussion to be had about rights vs. responsibilities.
> 
> The biggest difference I see between "then and now" is the lack of tolerance of opposing opinions.  Good faith debate used to be more prevalent, now an opposing opinion is met with insults and claims of "ism" or cries to be silenced.  There seems to be a trend for many that if you have one particular opinion (or voted for a certain person) then you meet a checklist of other opinions, when in fact most people are far more nuanced and moderate and not purely partisan.  We have a habit of placing people in boxes which this forum so clearly illustrates.   The most hard fought issues are those that are emotional causes that often have little to do with substance, common sense or reality.
> 
> ...


I definitely think we all have way more in common than we realize.  We all have similar basic needs/wants.  We all want a roof over heads, food on the table, to be gainfully employed, healthcare that doesn't bankrupt us, opportunity for us and our families, etc.  There are certainly some wedge issues, but those are in the minority.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

espola said:


> Snowflake.


Ahhh Magoo...it's nice of you to stick up for your boy, you are his only "friend" here in the forum...
That's just one of the things that makes you the douche bag you seemingly embrace.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I definitely think we all have way more in common than we realize.  We all have similar basic needs/wants.  We all want a roof over heads, food on the table, to be gainfully employed, healthcare that doesn't bankrupt us, opportunity for us and our families, etc.  There are certainly some wedge issues, but those are in the minority.


We also came onto the site because our kids love the game....


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 23, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> We also came onto the site because our kids love the game....


Or we REALLY want them to love it like we do....


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

The Biden administration looks to the country that is supplying fentanyl to America for our infant formula needs...

WASHINGTON -- The Biden administration announced Wednesday that it is providing logistical support to import the equivalent of about 16 million 8-ounce baby formula bottles from Mexico starting this weekend, as part of its efforts to ease nationwide supply shortages caused by the closure of the largest U.S. manufacturing plant.

The Department of Health and Human Services is expediting the travel of trucks that will drive about 1 million pounds of Gerber Good Start Gentle infant formula from a Nestlé plant to U.S. retailers, the White House said, nearly doubling the amount imported to the U.S. to date. Cargo flights from Europe and Australia already have brought baby formula into the U.S., including two new rounds of air shipments that begin this weekend.

The White House has been working to make supply more available as it has faced pressure from parents over supply issues after regulators in February shuttered a Michigan plant run by Abbott that is the largest domestic manufacturer of baby formula over safety concerns. The plant reopened on June 4 after the company committed to additional sanitizing and safety protocols, but shuttered again more than a week ago after severe weather caused damage to the plant.

The company said it needs time to assess damage and re-sanitize the factory after severe thunderstorms and heavy rains swept through southwestern Michigan on June 13.

entire article








						US importing baby formula from Mexico to ease shortage
					

The Biden administration announced Wednesday that it is providing logistical support to import the equivalent of about 16 million 8-ounce baby formula bottles from Mexico




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Biden administration looks to the country that is supplying fentanyl to America for our infant formula needs...
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The Biden administration announced Wednesday that it is providing logistical support to import the equivalent of about 16 million 8-ounce baby formula bottles from Mexico starting this weekend, as part of its efforts to ease nationwide supply shortages caused by the closure of the largest U.S. manufacturing plant.
> 
> ...


"Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States."



			https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20%20Fentanyl%20Flow%20in%20the%20United%20States_0.pdf


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

*Mexico Major Source of Fentanyl Entering U.S., Report Says*
Feb. 8, 2022

Mexico has replaced China as the “dominant source” of fentanyl and synthetic opioids entering the United States, a new government report says.

From 2014 until 2019, most pure fentanyl that U.S. authorities seized came from the People’s Republic of China (PRC), said the report from the Commission on Combating Synthetic Opioid Trafficking.

“Since then, the dominant source of illegally sourced fentanyl has been Mexico,” the report says. “The drug is manufactured in illegal laboratories there using precursors from Asia — mainly the PRC — and is trafficked principally by land into the United States.”









						Mexico Major Source of Fentanyl Entering U.S., Report Says
					






					www.webmd.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 23, 2022)

*“More people have died from overdoses in this country in the last two decades than the combined number of Americans who have died in combat operations in every war America has taken part in,” said David Luckey, a senior international and defense researcher at RAND. “If that's not a reason to bring people together to come up with ideas on how to resolve this problem, I don't know what is.”*

https://www.rand.org/blog/articles/2022/06/synthetic-opioids-are-an-everything-problem.html


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

watfly said:


> Most things aren't that black and white and the most divisive issues in our country are largely emotional, or at least the debate is.  The conflict often times arises because the sides are framed as absolutes, when in reality the vast majority don't want unlimited abortion or unlimited gun ownership, for example.
> 
> I hate to break it to you but lies are also protected free speech, so instead of silencing lies,  you have to combat them.  Fights lies with facts, not silence and insults.  When you go the ad hominem route its assumed you've lost the debate.  Lies can also be in the eye of the beholder.  Many considered the Wuhan lab leak to be a lie, when was actually quite possible and may be true.
> 
> While there are obvious lies, what is truth or fiction for many people is based upon their life experiences which can vary dramatically from person to person.  That's why its always good to try and stand in someone else's shoes.


Thanks, you said it better than I can.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

watfly said:


> When you go the ad hominem route its assumed you've lost the debate.


If so then there are a few in here we can safely say are constantly throwing in the towel, from the word go.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> One of the very disturbing trends is we have politicians pushing tech companies to censor speech.
> 
> Right now a small number of tech companies own/control the main means one communicates on the internet and they are increasingly shutting down contrary opinions, etc.
> 
> ...


That’s where the freedom vs responsibility debate comes in. I’m sure there are other venues one can enjoy the views of America’s Frontline Doctors and the unhinged ramblings of the former resident.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Could you illustrate some of my extreme views that would preclude me from being moderate?


So you believe the meme you posted was moderate? Or the phrase you used "your type people ". Or your inability to post "President Trump" or even "Trump". Sunshine... if I really wanted to I could crash this site by bogging it down with so examples of your "moderate" takes..

And E... you really should stop being such a kiss ass with Sunshine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

espola said:


> "Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20%20Fentanyl%20Flow%20in%20the%20United%20States_0.pdf


Does Nestle or any other legitimate manufacturer in Mexico make fentanyl? Who makes OxyContin? They make a lot of meth in Michigan we probably shouldn’t do business with them.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> So you believe the meme you posted was moderate? Or the phrase you used "your type people ". Or your inability to post "President Trump" or even "Trump". Sunshine... if I really wanted to I could crash this site by bogging it down with so examples of your "moderate" takes..
> 
> And E... you really should stop being such a kiss ass with Sunshine.


Boy are you sensitive when it comes to your dear leader. Me making fun of you isn’t extreme, it’s easy.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jun 23, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> The Biden administration looks to the country that is supplying fentanyl to America for our infant formula needs...
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The Biden administration announced Wednesday that it is providing logistical support to import the equivalent of about 16 million 8-ounce baby formula bottles from Mexico starting this weekend, as part of its efforts to ease nationwide supply shortages caused by the closure of the largest U.S. manufacturing plant.
> 
> ...


Wait till you see what else we import from Mexico --- it will blow your mind. 

This seems like a reasonable solution though.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

espola said:


> You're still free to tell your lies here, so what are you complaining about?


You're the resident liar..
Everyone already knows that..


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You're the resident liar..
> Everyone already knows that..


Irony exemplified.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Boy are you sensitive when it comes to your dear leader. Me making fun of you isn’t extreme, it’s easy.


Who's my leader? Who did I vote for? The fact you believe you know this just shows what everyone on this forum already knows about you. I'll let you figure that part out or maybe you and Pops can brainstorm about it.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Irony exemplified.


You mean how you accused me  of lieing when I posted  E claimed he was a cryptographer? How'd that go for you again? Or maybe that time you defended E from my lie about him saying Russia spies on all foreign tourist? Hmm... 

Please continue.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 23, 2022)

espola said:


> "Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20%20Fentanyl%20Flow%20in%20the%20United%20States_0.pdf


And where does the Fentanyl cross the border at? Where is it refined?


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 23, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540113590392438784


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 23, 2022)

espola said:


> The supposed anonymity of on-line postings encourages cowards to act like tough guys.


You are the ultimate coward/tough guy.

A LYING COWARD/KEYBOARD TOUGH GUY.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 23, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Boy are you sensitive when it comes to your dear leader. Me making fun of you isn’t extreme, it’s easy.


It's easy for a Püssy Dü to hurl lies and crap without any validity.

The TRUTH stings individuals such as you very deep, right down to
your lying soul.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You mean how you accused me  of lieing when I posted  E claimed he was a cryptographer? How'd that go for you again? Or maybe that time you defended E from my lie about him saying Russia spies on all foreign tourist? Hmm...
> 
> Please continue.


Did I and how do you feel about that. 
Your cupboard is bare.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You mean how you accused me  of lieing when I posted  E claimed he was a cryptographer? How'd that go for you again? Or maybe that time you defended E from my lie about him saying Russia spies on all foreign tourist? Hmm...
> 
> Please continue.


Your continuing displays of ignorance do not displease me.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> What lies?


pick an anecdotal  story you post on here


----------



## Happened again (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Does Nestle or any other legitimate manufacturer in Mexico make fentanyl? Who makes OxyContin? They make a lot of meth in Michigan we probably shouldn’t do business with them.


Your takes are so silly.  What does this even mean?  Is the country of michigan purposefuly trafficking meth to the country of texas? I know the chinese never have nefarious intentions, ever.  they are a freedom loving, capitalist country..


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Does Nestle or any other legitimate manufacturer in Mexico make fentanyl? Who makes OxyContin? They make a lot of meth in Michigan we probably shouldn’t do business with them.


Daffy, Daffy, Daffy........

*Most Meth Coming from Mexico*

San Diego County has had a long history with meth and the problems that come along with it. While the region is no longer considered the “Meth Capital of the World,” and little meth is produced locally, there is more meth available, and it is more potent and cheaper than ever.

The highly addictive and deadly drug is being manufactured and smuggled across the border by Mexican drug cartels. Today, most of the methamphetamine in San Diego County is coming from Mexico.

According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, methamphetamine seizures at U.S.-Mexico ports of entry nearly doubled in 2019. More than 34,000 kilograms were seized in 2019 compared to more than 19,000 kilograms the year before.

With availability going up and prices coming down, meth is having more negative consequences in San Diego families and communities.









						More San Diegans Dying Because of Meth
					

Record numbers of San Diegans are dying because of meth, according to new figures that show the highly addictive drug’s increasingly harmful impact on the region.




					www.countynewscenter.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 24, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Your takes are so silly.  What does this even mean?  Is the country of michigan purposefuly trafficking meth to the country of texas? I know the chinese never have nefarious intentions, ever.  they are a freedom loving, capitalist country..


I guess you have lying eyes on ignore?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 24, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> pick an anecdotal  story you post on here


So you got nothing, like always. Like Rudy G. you got lots of theories and no evidence. Better wipe the hair dye off your cheek kook.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Did I and how do you feel about that.
> Your cupboard is bare.


Come back when you can put coherent thoughts together. Otherwise your just looking like the tool you are..


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

espola said:


> Your continuing displays of ignorance do not displease me.


Your act, like you, is old and stale. Grab your cane and have a seat in your condo and proceed with your stare and compare. Or... add some salt on your hash.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Boy are you sensitive when it comes to your dear leader. Me making fun of you isn’t extreme, it’s easy.


Did you not call me a liar about E claiming he was a Cryptographer? Yes or no? Were you wrong in your accusation? Yes or no?

I know... you gotta sober up first to understand those questions.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you got nothing, like always. Like Rudy G. you got lots of theories and no evidence. Better wipe the hair dye off your cheek kook.


“ I only hit pro v-1s when I go to the driving range “

“ I have MAGA friends who have fallen down the Quanon hole”


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Come back when you can put coherent thoughts together. Otherwise your just looking like the tool you are..


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I guess you have lying eyes on ignore?


I never mentioned Michigan you asswipe....


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Your act, like you, is old and stale. Grab your cane and have a seat in your condo and proceed with your stare and compare. Or... add some salt on your hash.


q.e.d.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> “ I only hit pro v-1s when I go to the driving range “
> 
> “ I have MAGA friends who have fallen down the Quanon hole”


How do you know those are lies?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 24, 2022)

espola said:


> How do you know those are lies?


Cause you're the only friend Daffy Duck has....


----------



## crush (Jun 24, 2022)




----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

espola said:


> q.e.d.


Yea, we know your act. It's old like you...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13997


How original. How long did it take you find this one?


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 13997


And still you don't dare answer my questions. Typical lib...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 24, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Did you not call me a liar about E claiming he was a Cryptographer? Yes or no? Were you wrong in your accusation? Yes or no?
> 
> I know... you gotta sober up first to understand those questions.


Look in the mirror rummy. You are seeing things. The answer to the first question is no rendering the second moot. Stop projecting, it’s obvious seeing your rambling and typos.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Look in the mirror rummy. You are seeing things. The answer to the first question is no rendering the second moot. Stop projecting, it’s obvious seeing your rambling and typos.


Yea... that made sense Ratboy. Come back sober or just stick to near beer..


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Look in the mirror rummy. You are seeing things. The answer to the first question is no rendering the second moot. Stop projecting, it’s obvious seeing your rambling and typos.


BTW... what's a rummy? Is it one of your drinks? Dude you're a comedic mess...


----------



## crush (Jun 27, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 27, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jun 27, 2022)

Hi Joe, remember me?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 27, 2022)

*More than 1 million voters switch to GOP in warning for Dems*
By STEVE PEOPLES and AARON KESSLER

WASHINGTON (AP) — A political shift is beginning to take hold across the U.S. as tens of thousands of suburban swing voters who helped fuel the Democratic Party’s gains in recent years are becoming Republicans.

More than 1 million voters across 43 states have switched to the Republican Party over the last year, according to voter registration data analyzed by The Associated Press. The previously unreported number reflects a phenomenon that is playing out in virtually every region of the country — Democratic and Republican states along with cities and small towns — in the period since President Joe Biden replaced former President Donald Trump.

But nowhere is the shift more pronounced — and dangerous for Democrats — than in the suburbs, where well-educated swing voters who turned against Trump’s Republican Party in recent years appear to be swinging back. Over the last year, far more people are switching to the GOP across suburban counties from Denver to Atlanta and Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Republicans also gained ground in counties around medium-size cities such as Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; Raleigh, North Carolina; Augusta, Georgia; and Des Moines, Iowa.









						Voters switch lopsidedly to GOP, in warning for Dems
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — A political shift is beginning to take hold across the U.S. as tens of thousands of suburban voters who helped fuel the Democratic Party’s gains in recent years are becoming Republicans.




					apnews.com


----------



## thirteenknots (Jun 27, 2022)

crush said:


> Hi Joe, remember me?
> 
> View attachment 14049


Oh, that is priceless !!!


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 27, 2022)

Bipartisanship on full display. There's no room for anything but left ideologue..

"Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., suggested in an Instagram video Saturday night that pro-life Democrats should no longer serve in the wake of the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade."


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 27, 2022)

Shrinkflation... thanks Joe.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 27, 2022)

* At Least 46 Migrants Found Dead in San Antonio*
Three people were detained in what appeared to be one of the worst episodes of migrant death in recent years on the southern border. A heat wave in Texas has brought record temperatures and drought.

SAN ANTONIO — The bodies of at least 46 people believed to be migrants who crossed into the United States from Mexico were found dead on Monday in and around a tractor-trailer that had been abandoned on the outskirts of San Antonio, state and city officials said.

At least 16 others, including children, were taken to local hospitals alive but suffering from heat exhaustion and apparent dehydration, city officials said during a news conference at the scene of what appeared to be one of the worst episodes of migrant death in the United States in recent years.

“The plight of migrants seeking refuge is always a humanitarian crisis,” Mayor Ron Nirenberg of San Antonio told reporters late Monday. “But tonight we are dealing with a horrific human tragedy.”









						At Least 46 Migrants Found Dead in San Antonio
					

Three people were detained in what appeared to be one of the worst episodes of migrant death in recent years on the southern border. A heat wave in Texas has brought record temperatures and drought.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## crush (Jun 28, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> * At Least 46 Migrants Found Dead in San Antonio*
> Three people were detained in what appeared to be one of the worst episodes of migrant death in recent years on the southern border. A heat wave in Texas has brought record temperatures and drought.
> 
> SAN ANTONIO — The bodies of at least 46 people believed to be migrants who crossed into the United States from Mexico were found dead on Monday in and around a tractor-trailer that had been abandoned on the outskirts of San Antonio, state and city officials said.
> ...


----------



## crush (Jun 28, 2022)

Joe Lied


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541831858375348224


----------



## Multi Sport (Jun 30, 2022)

Blexit is alive and well. We have Joe to thank for this.

SEN. TIM SCOTT: I certainly think that the greatest threat to the liberal coalition are Black conservatives who stand up and think for ourselves. We represent the fact that the African-American community is not a monolithic community. If you could ever break the stronghold that the Democrats have in the African-American community, the entire coalition falls apart. And think about this: President Biden's approval ratings have never been lower in the African-American community and the Hispanic community. The last thing people want to see are people like Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson and myself standing up and making common sense popular everywhere in the nation.


----------



## espola (Jun 30, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Blexit is alive and well. We have Joe to thank for this.
> 
> SEN. TIM SCOTT: I certainly think that the greatest threat to the liberal coalition are Black conservatives who stand up and think for ourselves. We represent the fact that the African-American community is not a monolithic community. If you could ever break the stronghold that the Democrats have in the African-American community, the entire coalition falls apart. And think about this: President Biden's approval ratings have never been lower in the African-American community and the Hispanic community. The last thing people want to see are people like Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson and myself standing up and making common sense popular everywhere in the nation.


Clarence Thomas makes common sense?


----------



## crush (Jun 30, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 30, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Blexit is alive and well. We have Joe to thank for this.
> 
> SEN. TIM SCOTT: I certainly think that the greatest threat to the liberal coalition are Black conservatives who stand up and think for ourselves. We represent the fact that the African-American community is not a monolithic community. If you could ever break the stronghold that the Democrats have in the African-American community, the entire coalition falls apart. And think about this: President Biden's approval ratings have never been lower in the African-American community and the Hispanic community. The last thing people want to see are people like Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson and myself standing up and making common sense popular everywhere in the nation.


“Where’s my African-American? Oh there he is!”


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jun 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Clarence Thomas makes common sense?











						Clarence Thomas cites claim that Covid vaccines are ‘developed using cell lines derived from aborted children’
					

Cells derived from elective abortions have been used in vaccine research for decades, including for Covid-19 vaccines.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Happened again (Jun 30, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Clarence Thomas cites claim that Covid vaccines are ‘developed using cell lines derived from aborted children’
> 
> 
> Cells derived from elective abortions have been used in vaccine research for decades, including for Covid-19 vaccines.
> ...


yelling at clouds again?  Didn't he reiteriate what the author of the article stated below, or maybe it was vicer versa..either way??  

"*Cells obtained from elective abortions decades ago* were used in testing during the Covid vaccine development process, a practice that is common in vaccine testing — including for the rubella and chickenpox vaccinations" - Author

"They object on religious grounds to all available COVID–19 vaccines because *they were developed using cell lines derived from aborted children*" - Thomas

Do you think people are offended because Thomas used the word children instead of abortions?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jun 30, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Where’s my African-American? Oh there he is!”


Bigoted much?


----------



## espola (Jun 30, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Bigoted much?


Those were t's bigoted words he quoted.


----------



## Brav520 (Jun 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542684948519419908


----------



## pewpew (Jul 1, 2022)

espola said:


> Clarence Thomas makes common sense?


Only if he agrees on your point of view right? Which I'm guessing isn't very often.


----------



## crush (Jul 1, 2022)

"Hey pal, it's Pop. All clear for you to rip off America and destroy it. Don't forget my 10% cut. I love you son and I really love your sister."


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 1, 2022)

espola said:


> Those were t's bigoted words he quoted.


I don't live and die with every word the former President speaks or spoke...
Daffy should go ahead and share who he's quoting...
Sadly though it sounded like something Daffy would say.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I don't live and die with every word the former President speaks or spoke...
> Daffy should go ahead and share who he's quoting...
> Sadly though it sounded like something Daffy would say.


That's ok.  No one expects you to be well-informed at this point.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 1, 2022)

espola said:


> That's ok.  No one expects you to be well-informed at this point.


----------



## crush (Jul 2, 2022)

The real Joe in his own words. The Joe today is not the Joe from before. It's obvious.  








						Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## crush (Jul 2, 2022)




----------



## tenacious (Jul 2, 2022)

People keep talking about how does Biden save his presidency? I don't think it's by making deals with the Saudi's. Yes the political price is going to be high in the short term, but his new message that people are going to have to endure higher energy prices in the name of freedom is going to buy him some time.

What I say is he needs to do is ramp up production at home, but only on the condition Congress comes up with a real plan on how to transition away from fossil fuels. Joe Manchin should run the comity so it's a bipartisan deal that will be lasting and the world feels comfortable rallying behind.
Let China and Russia pay top dollar for Saudi oil. This could be a Sputnik type moment where he refocus the nations universities towards the science of winning the energy cold war (and away from using public dollars creating communists). Rather than give aways, lets see some grants that get things moving in the right direction again. 









						Saudis Want Biden to Counter Iran, Forget Khashoggi in Gas Crisis Bargain
					

A former Saudi official told Newsweek that the kingdom is "capable of finding a way to supply America with the oil they need, but there will be an exchange for that."




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2022)

tenacious said:


> People keep talking about how does Biden save his presidency? I don't think it's by making deals with the Saudi's. Yes the political price is going to be high in the short term, but his new message that people are going to have to endure higher energy prices in the name of freedom is going to buy him some time.
> 
> What I say is he needs to do is ramp up production at home, but only on the condition Congress comes up with a real plan on how to transition away from fossil fuels. Joe Manchin should run the comity so it's a bipartisan deal that will be lasting and the world feels comfortable rallying behind.
> Let China and Russia pay top dollar for Saudi oil. This could be a Sputnik type moment where he refocus the nations universities towards the science of winning the energy cold war (and away from using public dollars creating communists). Rather than give aways, lets see some grants that get things moving in the right direction again.
> ...


Cheap oil got us into this situation, but cheap oil won't get us out.


----------



## Happened again (Jul 2, 2022)

espola said:


> Cheap oil got us into this situation, but cheap oil won't get us out.


where do I find this book of cliches.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jul 2, 2022)




----------



## tenacious (Jul 2, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> View attachment 14142


I live in Manhattan, and happened the catch the Trump motorcade drive right past my apartment on York Ave. It was when he was in town to visit his dying brother Fred. Haha it was NYC toward the end of his presidency so there weren't crowds just police lining the street.  So I get talking with one of the cops, and this pretty lady as there weren't many other people around (the cop did a lot of talking trying to impress the pretty girl).

Anyway he was talking about how no one really know the route the motorcade will take. He pointed out the van with the weird thing on that and that there were multiple limo and no one knew exactly which one the President was in.  Then the limos drove past and Trump was riding shotgun, up in the very first limo. His hair was the give away, and also he's a big dude.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I live in Manhattan, and happened the catch the Trump motorcade drive right past my apartment on York Ave. It was when he was in town to visit his dying brother Fred. Haha it was NYC toward the end of his presidency so there weren't crowds just police lining the street.  So I get talking with one of the cops, and this pretty lady as there weren't many other people around (the cop did a lot of talking trying to impress the pretty girl).
> 
> Anyway he was talking about how no one really know the route the motorcade will take. He pointed out the van with the weird thing on that and that there were multiple limo and no one knew exactly which one the President was in.  Then the limos drove past and Trump was riding shotgun, up in the very first limo. His hair was the give away, and also he's a big dude.


Or else that was the body double put up there to fool assassins.

Or this --


----------



## tenacious (Jul 2, 2022)

*weird thing on top


espola said:


> Or else that was the body double put up there to fool assassins.
> 
> Or this --


Yes, if he has a body double then it's possible.

But the speed limit here is 25mph. They were moving faster than that, but not that much faster.  But just like in the photo the limo had clear glass in the front (but the back windows were tinted black as I remember?)

Anyway I got a good look at him. So did the cop because said 'he's in that one' as he knew we'd all had seen him and it was just a second after he had told us you never know what limo he's going to be in.


----------



## whatithink (Jul 2, 2022)

tenacious said:


> People keep talking about how does Biden save his presidency? I don't think it's by making deals with the Saudi's. Yes the political price is going to be high in the short term, but his new message that people are going to have to endure higher energy prices in the name of freedom is going to buy him some time.
> 
> What I say is he needs to do is ramp up production at home, but only on the condition Congress comes up with a real plan on how to transition away from fossil fuels. Joe Manchin should run the comity so it's a bipartisan deal that will be lasting and the world feels comfortable rallying behind.
> Let China and Russia pay top dollar for Saudi oil. This could be a Sputnik type moment where he refocus the nations universities towards the science of winning the energy cold war (and away from using public dollars creating communists). Rather than give aways, lets see some grants that get things moving in the right direction again.
> ...


There are a few potential issues with this, imv.

Biden can't compel anyone to ramp up production. The reality is that at the current price, there is no real incentive for domestic oil producers to ramp up.
A lot of domestic oil producers went out of business during covid (frackers mainly) as the price dropped due to the fall in demand and they were unprofitable. The US govt need to guarantee a baseline price to get companies to commit. A bit of corporate socialism.
There is also a refinery gap if we did produce more, and it takes years to plug that
China & India are happy buying oil from Russia at $80 or lower. Russia makes money at $15. Russia is the second largest oil producer (after the US), so they (CN/IN) don't need Saudi oil and for China, Russia is next door.
Russia is an oil (& gas) exporter, so no Saudi impact there.
Biden should build an enormous "bridge" with Venezuela - the country just south of us and the one with the largest oil reserves in the world. That would be a better longer term solution. The Saudi's are scum imo, and we should avoid if we can.


----------



## pewpew (Jul 3, 2022)

espola said:


> That's ok.  No one expects you to be well-informed at this point.


Do you look at yourself in the mirror and say that before you post here? (A rhetorical question if there ever was one.)


----------



## watfly (Jul 3, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I live in Manhattan, and happened the catch the Trump motorcade drive right past my apartment on York Ave. It was when he was in town to visit his dying brother Fred. Haha it was NYC toward the end of his presidency so there weren't crowds just police lining the street.  So I get talking with one of the cops, and this pretty lady as there weren't many other people around (the cop did a lot of talking trying to impress the pretty girl).
> 
> Anyway he was talking about how no one really know the route the motorcade will take. He pointed out the van with the weird thing on that and that there were multiple limo and no one knew exactly which one the President was in.  Then the limos drove past and Trump was riding shotgun, up in the very first limo. His hair was the give away, and also he's a big dude.





espola said:


> Or else that was the body double put up there to fool assassins.
> 
> Or this --


Or instead of us speculating the SS agents could just testify.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 4, 2022)

whatithink said:


> There are a few potential issues with this, imv.
> 
> Biden can't compel anyone to ramp up production. The reality is that at the current price, there is no real incentive for domestic oil producers to ramp up.
> A lot of domestic oil producers went out of business during covid (frackers mainly) as the price dropped due to the fall in demand and they were unprofitable. The US govt need to guarantee a baseline price to get companies to commit. A bit of corporate socialism.
> ...


I think you bring up a lot of great points. In my defense let me say perhaps I was feeling a bit overly confident from how well I was doing in the Insurrection thread when I posted this. But I said it, so I suppose now I've got to try and defend it...

First of all let me agree no Biden can't 'force' anyone to ramp up production. However I did hear on CNBC where Biden's Energy Secretary sat down with oil Execs last week and they told her that if the refineries didn't switch from winter to sulfur summer blends of oil it would have the same impact of bringing an extra refinery online.  Now no, I'm not saying we should lower the emissions standards... but what I am saying is that if Biden stops talking about putting the oil industry out of business and really sits down to talk with them, they might have a few ideas that could be helpful to him.

As to domestic oil producers going out of business... that doesn't mean there no longer oil in the ground? To me the real question is how fast can we get it out, and at what cost. From the permitting process, drilling, transporting, to offering tax incentives there are a variety of different steps Biden can take to speed things up.

Actually I think in terms of oil the worlds top three oil production nations the list is 1_Saudi Arabia, 2_United States of American, 3_Russia.

Venezuela is a better choice than Saudi Arabia? Hmm... I'll again go back to my point that if Biden frames the higher prices as the cost of freedom people will give him some time to get the problem sorted. Now he needs to comes up with an actual long term energy plan, that lays out a roadmap of how we transition to clean energy in a way that his party will be willing to agree but also gets buy in from the fossil fuel industry. Hence my suggestion he have J Manchin head a bi-partisan committee to get looking for this compromise asap.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 4, 2022)

watfly said:


> Or instead of us speculating the SS agents could just testify.


But they won't. Not only that, I'd be willing to wager money we don't get an actually quote from the agent in charge describing what happened before the 2024 election.


----------



## espola (Jul 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> But they won't. Not only that, I'd be willing to wager money we don't get an actually quote from the agent in charge describing what happened before the 2024 election.


The agent most likely to have rebuttal testimony (Tony Ornato) is already being criticized for his penchant for self-serving dishonesty by others who worked with him.  This could end up in she said - he said - she said - he said circus.

Remember espola rule #1 -- always tell the truth - that way you only have one story to remember.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 4, 2022)

espola said:


> The agent most likely to have rebuttal testimony (Tony Ornato) is already being criticized for his penchant for self-serving dishonesty by others who worked with him.  This could end up in she said - he said - she said - he said circus.
> 
> Remember espola rule #! -- always tell the truth - that way you only have one story to remember.


I hope he testifies.
Idk. In fairness to him, when push came to shove Tony chose not to drive Trump over to the Capital Building. I think that's worth something. So if he were to testify under oath I would likely believe him.


----------



## pewpew (Jul 4, 2022)

espola said:


> Remember espola rule #1 -- always tell the truth - that way you only have one story to remember.


----------



## watfly (Jul 4, 2022)

tenacious said:


> But they won't. Not only that, I'd be willing to wager money we don't get an actually quote from the agent in charge describing what happened before the 2024 election.


And if they dont its because the committee doesnt want the credibilty of their "bombshell" witness impugned.  That should tell you all you need to know about these hearings.

Multiple MSM sources are reporting that they want to testify and there is nothing that legally prevents them from doing so.

It sounds like because you saw him in the front seat in NY years ago that you may have already made up mind.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 4, 2022)

espola said:


> The agent most likely to have rebuttal testimony (Tony Ornato) is already being criticized for his penchant for self-serving dishonesty by others who worked with him.  This could end up in she said - he said - she said - he said circus.
> 
> Remember espola rule #1 -- always tell the truth - that way you only have one story to remember.


Sounds like more hearsay......


----------



## tenacious (Jul 5, 2022)

Ugh 'here he goes again.' I really like Joe Biden the man, but Joe Biden the president not so much. There is just something missing... 









						Biden trolled by Chinese state media after urging gas companies to drop prices
					

“Now US President finally realized that capitalism is all about exploitation. He didn’t believe this before,” wrote Chen Weihua, EU Bureau Chief and columnist for China Daily, an English language m…




					nypost.com


----------



## tenacious (Jul 5, 2022)

watfly said:


> And if they dont its because the committee doesnt want the credibilty of their "bombshell" witness impugned.  That should tell you all you need to know about these hearings.
> 
> Multiple MSM sources are reporting that they want to testify and there is nothing that legally prevents them from doing so.
> 
> It sounds like because you saw him in the front seat in NY years ago that you may have already made up mind.


Idk. I can remember in 2008, when the Dems took control of the House and tried to compel Bush's SS agents to testify about Bush's conversations with his lawyers and in private meetings they had overheard; as there was concern from the Dems regarding the nature of Bush's relationship with big oil. It's been long enough I could be misremembering, but as I recollect the court cases went on for years and the agents never ended up testifying.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 5, 2022)

*Secret Service Agents
Told To Testify*
_By Peter Baker_
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 23, 1998; Page A01

A federal judge ordered Secret Service officers yesterday to reveal what they know about President Clinton's relationship with Monica S. Lewinsky, dismissing dire warnings that such testimony would jeopardize the safety of presidents by destroying their trust in the agents who guard them.

Chief U.S. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson, who has sided with independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr in several recent decisions related to his investigation of Clinton, ruled that Secret Service personnel are obligated as law enforcement officers to turn over evidence in a criminal probe and refused to create a special "protective function privilege" that would exempt them.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/service052398.htm


----------



## watfly (Jul 5, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Idk. I can remember in 2008, when the Dems took control of the House and tried to compel Bush's SS agents to testify about Bush's conversations with his lawyers and in private meetings they had overheard; as there was concern from the Dems regarding the nature of Bush's relationship with big oil. It's been long enough I could be misremembering, but as I recollect the court cases went on for years and the agents never ended up testifying.





Lion Eyes said:


> *Secret Service Agents
> Told To Testify*
> _By Peter Baker_
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...


From Politico:

_Anthony Guglielmi, the service’s chief of communications, told POLITICO that select committee investigators did not ask Secret Service personnel to reappear or answer questions in writing in the 10 days before asking Hutchinson about the matter at the hearing.

“[W]e were not asked to reappear before the Committee in response to yesterday’s new information and we plan on formally responding on the record,” he wrote in an email. “We have and will continue to make any member of the Secret Service available.”_


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544453726445895692


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *Secret Service Agents
> Told To Testify*
> _By Peter Baker_
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...


Ahh gotcha.  Okay I stand corrected. Now I'm with you guys, let's hear the agents... 


			Secret Service: Officials willing to testify after Jan. 6 witness said Trump lunged, grabbed wheel


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> From Politico:
> 
> _Anthony Guglielmi, the service’s chief of communications, told POLITICO that select committee investigators did not ask Secret Service personnel to reappear or answer questions in writing in the 10 days before asking Hutchinson about the matter at the hearing.
> 
> “[W]e were not asked to reappear before the Committee in response to yesterday’s new information and we plan on formally responding on the record,” he wrote in an email. “We have and will continue to make any member of the Secret Service available.”_


I'm not sure I follow why it's important they testify within ten days. You think Trump grabbing the steering would have been a detail they forgot to add (or not add) into their first testimony?

Guess maybe I was a defense lawyer grasping at straws I could see your concern... but as someone trying to understand the truth I'm more interested in the agents testimony given before they have had the opportunity to listen to what everyone else had said.


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I'm not sure I follow why it's important they testify within ten days. You think Trump grabbing the steering would have been a detail they forgot to add (or not add) into their first testimony?
> 
> Guess maybe I was a defense lawyer grasping at straws I could see your concern... but as someone trying to understand the truth I'm more interested in the agents testimony given before they have had the opportunity to listen to what everyone else had said.


No clue what the relevance of the 10 days is.  Interesting "grasping at straws" comment.  I hope you only mean that as a back handed insult directed at me and don't truly believe that.   I'd be troubled if you think defendants can be convicted on hearsay and aren't entitled to a rebuttal witness.

While dramatic and it certainly got the MSM wetting their pants in joy, her testimony really wasn't all that relevant.  Having a bad temper isn't an impeachable offense.  The fact that it was mostly 2nd and 3rd hand reports is just evidence of the fact that the hearing is more of a kangaroo court.   I'd argue the salacious, but not criminal, testimony is more a sign of a desperate prosecutor.

So I guess I don't really care that much about her testimony either way.  What he did or didn't do in regards to Georgia and Arizona election officials is really what's relevant.


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> No clue what the relevance of the 10 days is.  Interesting "grasping at straws" comment.  I hope you only mean that as a back handed insult directed at me and don't truly believe that.   I'd be troubled if you think defendants can be convicted on hearsay and aren't entitled to a rebuttal witness.
> 
> While dramatic and it certainly got the MSM wetting their pants in joy, her testimony really wasn't all that relevant.  Having a bad temper isn't an impeachable offense.  The fact that it was mostly 2nd and 3rd hand reports is just evidence of the fact that the hearing is more of a kangaroo court.   I'd argue the salacious, but not criminal, testimony is more a sign of a desperate prosecutor.
> 
> So I guess I don't really care that much about her testimony either way.  What he did or didn't do in regards to Georgia and Arizona election officials is really what's relevant.


Wanting to lead an insurrectionist armed mob into the Capitol for the expressed purpose of overturning American Democracy is irrelevant to you?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> Wanting to lead an insurrectionist armed mob into the Capitol for the expressed purpose of overturning American Democracy is irrelevant to you?


And people like that want to be taken seriously.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> No clue what the relevance of the 10 days is.  Interesting "grasping at straws" comment.  I hope you only mean that as a back handed insult directed at me and don't truly believe that.   I'd be troubled if you think defendants can be convicted on hearsay and aren't entitled to a rebuttal witness.


This is the sentence that was tripping me up when I asked why ten days was important. 



watfly said:


> From Politico:
> _Anthony Guglielmi, the service’s chief of communications, told POLITICO that select committee investigators did not ask Secret Service personnel to reappear or answer questions in writing in the 10 days before asking Hutchinson about the matter at the hearing._


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> And people like that want to be taken seriously.


Pot calling kettle black......


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> While dramatic and it certainly got the MSM wetting their pants in joy, her testimony really wasn't all that relevant.  Having a bad temper isn't an impeachable offense.  The fact that it was mostly 2nd and 3rd hand reports is just evidence of the fact that the hearing is more of a kangaroo court.   I'd argue the salacious, but not criminal, testimony is more a sign of a desperate prosecutor.
> 
> So I guess I don't really care that much about her testimony either way.  What he did or didn't do in regards to Georgia and Arizona election officials is really what's relevant.


I'm certainly not making a backhanded compliment. Merely pointing out that while in a court of law the judge get's to say what the jury gets to consider... that isn't the bar I'm following. I.e. many things that would be of interest to a trained lawyer, aren't necessarily what concerns me.

If we're going to have a good debate, it seemed fair to mention that. I make television and can speak to bad acting and a good understanding of the craft of entertainment.


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> Wanting to lead an insurrectionist armed mob into the Capitol for the expressed purpose of overturning American Democracy is irrelevant to you?


Based on hearsay, yes.  First hand report, no.  "Wanting" and "doing" are two separate things.  Wanting is not a crime but IMO opinion it disqualifies him from being President.  The FBI already ruled that it wasnt a coordinated attack on the Capitol.  He is certainly guilty of not stopping it.


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I'm certainly not making a backhanded compliment. Merely pointing out that while in a court of law the judge get's to say what the jury gets to consider... that isn't the bar I'm following. I.e. many things that would be of interest to a trained lawyer, aren't necessarily what concerns me.
> 
> If we're going to have a good debate, it seemed fair to mention that. I make television and can speak to bad acting and a good understanding of the craft of entertainment.


And I'm more interested in facts and due process than entertainment value.  There is too much focus on the latter in the hearings which impacts its credibility.

I also don't want a tit for tat when the Rs are in charge of Congress in 6 months.  Do you really want hours of Hunters sex tapes being broadcast in Congressional hearings?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

Joe is struggling....

On the menu today: You might think that, at this point, Joe Biden must have hit bottom in his job approval rating, but a Monmouth University poll finds him down to 36 percent. What’s notable about the polling lately is how many Democrats can no longer convince themselves that Biden is doing a good job. A lot of this is driven by the runaway-inflation crisis, and there’s a real problem for Democrats, in that the $1.9 trillion in new spending enacted in March 2021 — a massive spending bill that Larry Summers explicitly warned would “set off inflationary pressures of a kind we have not seen in a generation” — was passed on party-line votes. As they approach a red tsunami midterm, the Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/the-democrats-most-bitter-pill/

Donald isn't doing much better...

“President Biden may want to run again but the voters say ‘no’ to the idea of a second term, panning the job he is doing as president. Only 30 percent of Democrats would even vote for him in a Democratic presidential primary,” Mark Penn, the co-director of the Harvard CAPS–Harris Poll survey, said.

But a majority of respondents — 61 percent — also say former President Trump should not run for the White House in 2024. Thirty-nine percent of respondents said the former president should run again.









						71 percent don’t want Biden to run for reelection: poll
					

Seven in 10 Americans say they do not want President Biden to run for a second term, according to a new poll that comes as Biden’s approval numbers remain low and his party braces for losses …




					thehill.com


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> And I'm more interested in facts and due process than entertainment value.  There is too much focus on the latter in the hearings which impacts its credibility.
> 
> I also don't want a tit for tat when the Rs are in charge of Congress in 6 months.  Do you really want hours of Hunters sex tapes being broadcast in Congressional hearings?


If Hunter decides to run for office in 2024 that would make sense they would run hearings. Hard to imagine in the face of inflation that story having longer legs than the repeal of Row V Wade? haha Power is a hot potato. If Republican run on fixing America and poison the well so that Hunter's scalp is all they got to talk about... that could be trouble. (for them)

Anyway, when Republican leaders asked House members to withdraw from the committee it became entertainment. But still it's a committee with the power to call witnesses to testify publicly and under oath. CH put together the first clear account of how Trump took the news he'd lost the election... and it's not pretty. Regardless of what the letter of the law says, to me if feels like my duty as a patriotic (selfishly freedom loving) American that push to find out what really happened.

If it's Trump having a moment and the secret service detail didn't think it important enough to mention then this should be over pretty quick. I think a majority will want to let something like that slide. But if Trump's people were on the phone with thugs coordinating an ANTIFA style attack on the Capital... then it's probably going to take a longer to sort out.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Joe is struggling....
> 
> On the menu today: You might think that, at this point, Joe Biden must have hit bottom in his job approval rating, but a Monmouth University poll finds him down to 36 percent. What’s notable about the polling lately is how many Democrats can no longer convince themselves that Biden is doing a good job. A lot of this is driven by the runaway-inflation crisis, and there’s a real problem for Democrats, in that the $1.9 trillion in new spending enacted in March 2021 — a massive spending bill that Larry Summers explicitly warned would “set off inflationary pressures of a kind we have not seen in a generation” — was passed on party-line votes. As they approach a red tsunami midterm, the Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.
> 
> ...


How does he turn it around.  Assuming for the good of the country... given his allies and the political landscape... what would you tell him to do?


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> And I'm more interested in facts and due process than entertainment value.  There is too much focus on the latter in the hearings which impacts its credibility.
> 
> I also don't want a tit for tat when the Rs are in charge of Congress in 6 months.  Do you really want hours of Hunters sex tapes being broadcast in Congressional hearings?


There are hours of Hunter's sex tapes?  Is that what's on Hjunter's laptop?  No one posting here has been able to answer that question.


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

tenacious said:


> If Hunter decides to run for office in 2024 that would make sense they would run hearings. Hard to imagine in the face of inflation that story having longer legs than the repeal of Row V Wade? haha Power is a hot potato. If Republican run on fixing America and poison the well so that Hunter's scalp is all they got to talk about... that could be trouble. (for them)
> 
> Anyway, when Republican leaders asked House members to withdraw from the committee it became entertainment. But still it's a committee with the power to call witnesses to testify publicly and under oath. CH put together the first clear account of how Trump took the news he'd lost the election... and it's not pretty. Regardless of what the letter of the law says, to me if feels like my duty as a patriotic (selfishly freedom loving) American that push to find out what really happened.
> 
> If it's Trump having a moment and the secret service detail didn't think it important enough to mention then this should be over pretty quick. I think a majority will want to let something like that slide. But if Trump's people were on the phone with thugs coordinating an ANTIFA style attack on the Capital... then it's probably going to take a longer to sort out.


That's disingenuous about Hunter running and you know it.  Hutchinson wasn't running for office and they still called her and she testified.   Hunter is a much more material witness to Biden's potential conflicts of interest with China and Ukraine than Hutchinson is as 2nd and 3rd hand witness of Trump's tantrums.   A 2nd hand report of Trump throwing his lunch is as relevant as video of Hunter's sex life.  Interesting how your opinion morphed from the SS should be called to its really not that important.

Never said that I didn't want to know what happened.  I've actually watched a lot of it.  I just want it from reliable first hand accounts.  I want facts not spectacle, but my background is in litigation support and not entertainment.  The fact that its a kangaroo court is why there is not much interest from moderate thinking people to follow it while hard R's completely ignore it and lefties drink it up like nectar from heaven.  It's partisan TV at it's worst.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> There are hours of Hunter's sex tapes?  Is that what's on Hjunter's laptop?  No one posting here has been able to answer that question.











						Hunter Biden's laptop is 100% authentic, forensic examination concludes
					

EXCLUSIVE — A copy of Hunter Biden's hard drive obtained by the Washington Examiner is indisputably authentic, and there is no evidence of any hacking or file manipulation, according to




					www.coloradopolitics.com


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Based on hearsay, yes.  First hand report, no.  "Wanting" and "doing" are two separate things.  Wanting is not a crime but IMO opinion it disqualifies him from being President.  The FBI already ruled that it wasnt a coordinated attack on the Capitol.  He is certainly guilty of not stopping it.


It's pretty clear what the words you posted mean, whether you intended that meaning or not.  

As for all this nonsense about "hearsay" -- this is not a criminal trial court - it's a Congressional Committee investigation.   Whether any of this testimony ends up in a criminal court trial will depend on the rules of evidence as overseen by the trial judge.


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> It's pretty clear what the words you posted mean, whether you intended that meaning or not.
> 
> As for all this nonsense about "hearsay" -- this is not a criminal trial court - it's a Congressional Committee investigation.   Whether any of this testimony ends up in a criminal court trial will depend on the rules of evidence as overseen by the trial judge.


Yep, you go ahead and tell me what I meant to make your arguments sound plausible.  Just like Husker and Dad4.

Your so desperate I'm not surprised hearsay without rebuttal is OK with you.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> There are hours of Hunter's sex tapes?  Is that what's on Hjunter's laptop?  No one posting here has been able to answer that question.


Still crickets on that? Pretty damning innuendo for sure!


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yep, you go ahead and tell me what I meant to make your arguments sound plausible.  Just like Husker and Dad4.
> 
> Your so desperate I'm not surprised hearsay without rebuttal is OK with you.



Without rebuttal?  Are the hearings concluded already?  I have been one of those who stated hereabouts that I welcome rebuttal testimony, whatever that might be, in the same conditions under which Ms Hutchinson testified -- in public, under oath.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

tenacious said:


> How does he turn it around.  Assuming for the good of the country... given his allies and the political landscape... what would you tell him to do?


I don't think he can. 
He has a weak, way left cabinet that is not in line with most American's. 
He needs to return to the middle and lead from that position and stop blaming others for his missteps and policy folly.


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Still crickets on that? Pretty damning innuendo for sure!


I'm expecting a replay of Hillary's testimony about Benghazi, where nothing was proven except for the power of Congress to make political hay out of nothing.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Hunter Biden's laptop is 100% authentic, forensic examination concludes
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE — A copy of Hunter Biden's hard drive obtained by the Washington Examiner is indisputably authentic, and there is no evidence of any hacking or file manipulation, according to
> ...





espola said:


> You have established many times that it is authentic, but you are a little weak in presenting whatever the authentic contents of the AUTHENTIlaptop might be.
> 
> 
> 
> Without rebuttal?  Are the hearings concluded already?  I have been one of those who stated hereabouts that I welcome rebuttal testimony, whatever that might be, in the same conditions under which Ms Hutchinson testified -- in public, under oath.


Read the f'n article, it's  good start....


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> That's disingenuous about Hunter running and you know it.  Hutchinson wasn't running for office and they still called her and she testified.   Hunter is a much more material witness to Biden's potential conflicts of interest with China and Ukraine than Hutchinson is as 2nd and 3rd hand witness of Trump's tantrums.   A 2nd hand report of Trump throwing his lunch is as relevant as video of Hunter's sex life.  Interesting how your opinion morphed from the SS should be called to its really not that important.
> 
> Never said that I didn't want to know what happened.  I've actually watched a lot of it.  I just want it from reliable first hand accounts.  I want facts not spectacle, but my background is in litigation support and not entertainment.  The fact that its a kangaroo court is why there is not much interest from moderate thinking people to follow it while hard R's completely ignore it and lefties drink it up like nectar from heaven.  It's partisan TV at it's worst.


About what pray tell would you have Hunter testify about? He isn’t in the administration that would elicit calls of nepotism . . . was he awarded a dozen or so trademarks in a foreign country just after his daddy was elected and had meetings at his private home with that countries leader? I guess I’m confused.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

I'm sure you can find the pictures described below....









						Hunter Biden's laptop is 100% authentic, forensic examination concludes
					

EXCLUSIVE — A copy of Hunter Biden's hard drive obtained by the Washington Examiner is indisputably authentic, and there is no evidence of any hacking or file manipulation, according to




					www.coloradopolitics.com
				




_Collage of Hunter Biden's signatures on documents located on a copy of his hard drive._
One such event Dimitrelos pieced together using digital sandwiching was Hunter Biden's stay at the Sixty Beverly Hills Hotel on June 22, 2018, when he took 24 explicit photos with an unknown woman.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> You have established many times that it is authentic, but you are a little weak in presenting whatever the authentic contents of the AUTHENTIlaptop might be.
> 
> 
> 
> Without rebuttal?  Are the hearings concluded already?  I have been one of those who stated hereabouts that I welcome rebuttal testimony, whatever that might be, in the same conditions under which Ms Hutchinson testified -- in public, under oath.


Yes let’s get Rudy, Mo, Don Jr, Ivanka, Eastman or Lindsey up there. Not the Donald though, he can’t tell you the time of day without lying.








						Georgia grand jury subpoenas top Trump allies, including Giuliani and Eastman
					

Jurors have questions for former Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman as well as others who advised the former president's attempts to reverse his defeat in 2020.




					www.npr.org


----------



## espola (Jul 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I'm sure you can find the pictures described below....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But nothing like this?

"Hey Dad, I just spoke with the antifa leaders and they are planning an attack on the Capitol disguised as Trump supporters."

Now that would be newsworthy.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> About what pray tell would you have Hunter testify about? He isn’t in the administration that would elicit calls of nepotism . . . was he awarded a dozen or so trademarks in a foreign country just after his daddy was elected and had meetings at his private home with that countries leader? I guess I’m confused.


You confused? Of course you are....









						Voicemail from Joe to Hunter proves they spoke about Chinese business
					

'I thought the article released online, it's going to be printed tomorrow in the Times, was good. I think you're clear,' Joe said in the voicemail to Hunter.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> But nothing like this?
> 
> "Hey Dad, I just spoke with the antifa leaders and they are planning an attack on the Capitol disguised as Trump supporters."
> 
> Now that would be newsworthy.


Thanks Mr. Magoo.....you still haven't read the article...and down the rabbit hole you go.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm expecting a replay of Hillary's testimony about Benghazi, where nothing was proven except for the power of Congress to make political hay out of nothing.


Yes but those were earnest efforts to get to the truth!
 “Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she’s untrustable. But no one would have known any of that had happened, had we not fought.”- the quiet part out loud.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> That's disingenuous about Hunter running and you know it.  Hutchinson wasn't running for office and they still called her and she testified.   Hunter is a much more material witness to Biden's potential conflicts of interest with China and Ukraine than Hutchinson is as 2nd and 3rd hand witness of Trump's tantrums.   A 2nd hand report of Trump throwing his lunch is as relevant as video of Hunter's sex life.  Interesting how your opinion morphed from the SS should be called to its really not that important.
> 
> Never said that I didn't want to know what happened.  I've actually watched a lot of it.  I just want it from reliable first hand accounts.  I want facts not spectacle, but my background is in litigation support and not entertainment.  The fact that its a kangaroo court is why there is not much interest from moderate thinking people to follow it while hard R's completely ignore it and lefties drink it up like nectar from heaven.  It's partisan TV at it's worst.


You had said you didn't want a 'tit for tat' when Republican's take over in 6 months. Guess to my POV, Trump was joking about hanging his VP Mike Pence. And he liked Pence. So I don't know if a tit for tat (whereby Hunter stays out of the news) is necessary avoidable?


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I don't think he can.
> He has a weak, way left cabinet that is not in line with most American's.
> He needs to return to the middle and lead from that position and stop blaming others for his missteps and policy folly.


Ugh. Deep down on the inside there is a part of me that is afraid you're right. His admin seems to be adrift... 

He's spent months wooing the far left and they still keep him at an arm's length. Which has ruined his brand so now moderates hold him at an arm's length. And then when I think of scenarios where he wins reelection it always involves something along the lines of the far left and moderate republican's negotiating out workable lasting solutions to the many real issues facing the nation.

He just don't have the tools to pull something like that off. Nor does his team.


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 6, 2022)

No 1/6 , no Biden laptop , no Ukraine 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544339824974254081


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Ugh. Deep down on the inside there is a part of me that is afraid you're right. His admin seems to be adrift...
> 
> He's spent months wooing the far left and they still keep him at an arm's length. Which has ruined his brand so now moderates hold him at an arm's length. And then when I think of scenarios where he wins reelection it always involves something along the lines of the far left and moderate republican's negotiating out workable lasting solutions to the many real issues facing the nation.
> 
> He just don't have the tools to pull something like that off. Nor does his team.


As best I can tell his team thinks its a messaging problem, I'm fairly confident that's not the problem.


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> As best I can tell his team thinks its a messaging problem, I'm fairly confident that's not the problem.


this was a funny article . Why does the administration care about the opinions of a d-list celebrity Debra Messing










						After string of Supreme Court setbacks, Democrats wonder whether Biden White House is capable of urgency moment demands
					

Debra Messing was fed up. The former "Will & Grace" star was among dozens of celebrity Democratic supporters and activists who joined a call with White House aides last Monday to discuss the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> this was a funny article . Why does the administration care about the opinions of a d-list celebrity Debra Messing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of Dems love to suck up to celebrities (see Eric Adams for most recent example).  1) non-serious politicians love the attention and the perks of rubbing elbows with celebrities and 2) celebrities have powerful reach and uninformed voters are suckers for a celebrity opinion.  Plus elites and celebrities tend to occupy the same air space and echo chamber.  They're far removed from people with everyday problems despite the fact they think they know what is best for everyone.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> this was a funny article . Why does the administration care about the opinions of a d-list celebrity Debra Messing
> 
> 
> [URLunfurl="true"]https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/05/politics/democrats-frustrated-biden-lack-of-urgency-supreme-court-setbacks/index.html[/URL]


“Care”? Lol!


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Care”? Lol!


well they invited her on  a call , so I assume they care . How would you describe it ?


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> A lot of Dems love to suck up to celebrities (see Eric Adams for most recent example).  1) non-serious politicians love the attention and the perks of rubbing elbows with celebrities and 2) celebrities have powerful reach and uninformed voters are suckers for a celebrity opinion.  Plus elites and celebrities tend to occupy the same air space and echo chamber.  They're far removed from people with everyday problems despite the fact they think they know what is best for everyone.


Trump loved it as well , so not exclusively a dem thing

but, Debra Messing , I mean who cares about her , what actual influence does a late 90s sitcom star actually have


----------



## watfly (Jul 6, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Trump loved it as well , so not exclusively a dem thing
> 
> but, Debra Messing , I mean who cares about her , what actual influence does a late 90s sitcom star actually have


True, but Trump was more a celebrity himself particularly with The Apprentice gig and was in those circles pre-politician.  Not that it really matters. Of course, Reagan was an actor.  Non-serious politicians from either party seem to think celebrities give the credibility for some reason.

Debra Messing is a head scratcher.  Apparently Danny Bonaduce wasn't available?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 6, 2022)

*Oil from U.S. reserves sent overseas as gasoline prices stay high*

HOUSTON, July 5 (Reuters) - More than 5 million barrels of oil that were part of a historic U.S. emergency reserves release to lower domestic fuel prices were exported to Europe and Asia last month, according to data and sources, even as U.S. gasoline and diesel prices hit record highs.









						Oil from U.S. reserves sent overseas as gasoline prices stay high
					

More than 5 million barrels of oil that were part of a historic U.S. emergency reserves release to lower domestic fuel prices were exported to Europe and Asia last month, according to data and sources, even as U.S. gasoline and diesel prices hit record highs.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Trump loved it as well , so not exclusively a dem thing
> 
> but, Debra Messing , I mean who cares about her , what actual influence does a late 90s sitcom star actually have


Idk. In all fairness, is she more or less qualified to talk on politics than Sean Hannity or Rachel Maddow? Seems to me whatever their qualifications are... it's not much above 90's sitcoms star.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> As best I can tell his team thinks its a messaging problem, I'm fairly confident that's not the problem.


The problem isn't the messaging.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> A lot of Dems love to suck up to celebrities (see Eric Adams for most recent example).  1) non-serious politicians love the attention and the perks of rubbing elbows with celebrities and 2) celebrities have powerful reach and uninformed voters are suckers for a celebrity opinion.  Plus elites and celebrities tend to occupy the same air space and echo chamber.  They're far removed from people with everyday problems despite the fact they think they know what is best for everyone.


Some, not all.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> True, but Trump was more a celebrity himself particularly with The Apprentice gig and was in those circles pre-politician.  Not that it really matters. Of course, Reagan was an actor.  Non-serious politicians from either party seem to think celebrities give the credibility for some reason.
> 
> Debra Messing is a head scratcher.  Apparently Danny Bonaduce wasn't available?


Celebrities are also donors and can raise large amounts of money.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 6, 2022)

watfly said:


> A lot of Dems love to suck up to celebrities (see Eric Adams for most recent example).  1) non-serious politicians love the attention and the perks of rubbing elbows with celebrities and 2) celebrities have powerful reach and uninformed voters are suckers for a celebrity opinion.  Plus elites and celebrities tend to occupy the same air space and echo chamber.  They're far removed from people with everyday problems despite the fact they think they know what is best for everyone.


I actually am beginning to like Eric Adams. When I hear him speaking he gets the problems... but can he find a way to fix them is still an open question. City and state leaders are what I think can fairly be called looney left and seemed determined to stop him.

As for rubbing elbows? Let's be honest; NYC like Los Angeles have lost a fair amount of their luster now that the progressives have taken over. And you know that's the truth because we can all see from the census data people are moving out. Gavin is trying to counter this narrative by talking about companies moving from Florida to California for abortion rights. Eric Adams is trying to make NYC seem like somewhere cool people want to be.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 7, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *Oil from U.S. reserves sent overseas as gasoline prices stay high*
> 
> HOUSTON, July 5 (Reuters) - More than 5 million barrels of oil that were part of a historic U.S. emergency reserves release to lower domestic fuel prices were exported to Europe and Asia last month, according to data and sources, even as U.S. gasoline and diesel prices hit record highs.
> 
> ...


Curious how Ratboy feels about this.


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 7, 2022)

The White liberal is the worst enemy to America...  

I'll wait.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 7, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Curious how Ratboy feels about this.


The silence is deafening...


----------



## watfly (Jul 7, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I actually am beginning to like Eric Adams. When I hear him speaking he gets the problems... but can he find a way to fix them is still an open question. City and state leaders are what I think can fairly be called looney left and seemed determined to stop him.
> 
> As for rubbing elbows? Let's be honest; NYC like Los Angeles have lost a fair amount of their luster now that the progressives have taken over. And you know that's the truth because we can all see from the census data people are moving out. Gavin is trying to counter this narrative by talking about companies moving from Florida to California for abortion rights. Eric Adams is trying to make NYC seem like somewhere cool people want to be.


Really?  I was cautiously optimistic when he was elected (he was saying all the right things), but he's been a huge disappointment so far, and appears to be more interested in celebrity culture than anything else.  Comes across as another "out of touch" politician despite his claims of being a blue collar guy.  For him to claim he "was shocked at how bad this place is", is very troubling.  What has he done to address the crime problem so far?  Wearing a $2,000 tux that says "stop gun crime" doesn't count.  It's still early, so I will give him an "incomplete" at this point.

Now in his defense, he's severely hamstrung by DA Bragg.  Until New Yorker's get a clue and get rid of Bragg, NYC is going to continue to go down the toilet.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Really?  I was cautiously optimistic when he was elected (he was saying all the right things), but he's been a huge disappointment so far, and appears to be more interested in celebrity culture than anything else.  Comes across as another "out of touch" politician despite his claims of being a blue collar guy.  For him to claim he "was shocked at how bad this place is", is very troubling.  What has he done to address the crime problem so far?  Wearing a $2,000 tux that says "stop gun crime" doesn't count.  It's still early, so I will give him an "incomplete" at this point.
> 
> Now in his defense, he's severely hamstrung by DA Bragg.  Until New Yorker's get a clue and get rid of Bragg, NYC is going to continue to go down the toilet.


*WTF?*

*Bodega worker in Rikers on murder charge after stabbing attacker in self-defense*

A hard-working Manhattan bodega clerk who was forced to grab a knife to fend off a violent ex-con, now finds himself sitting behind bars at the notorious Rikers Island jail charged with murder and unable to post $250,000 bail.

The sky-high bail for Jose Alba — who has no known criminal history — was just half of what controversial Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s office demanded, despite surveillance video showing the clerk being assaulted by his alleged victim in the bodega.

Alba, 51, was charged with the fatal stabbing of Austin Simon, 34, who can be seen storming behind the counter at the Hamilton Heights Grocery on Broadway and West 139th Street to attack the store worker Friday night.

“It was either him or the guy at the moment,” Alba’s daughter Yulissa told The Post Wednesday, saying it was a case of self-defense.

“He’s never hurt anybody. He’s never had an altercation where he had to defend himself. This is the first time for him.”

NYC bodega worker Jose Alba charged in fatal stabbing feared for his life, family says (nypost.com)


----------



## watfly (Jul 7, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *WTF?*
> 
> *Bodega worker in Rikers on murder charge after stabbing attacker in self-defense*
> 
> ...


Yep, Bragg is obvious as to his intentions to coddle criminals under the guise of social justice.  Just another shill for Soros.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jul 7, 2022)

*SELF DEFENCE !!!


APPLYING TWISTED LOGIC IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH
SOCIETY TODAY !*


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 7, 2022)

watfly said:


> Really?  I was cautiously optimistic when he was elected (he was saying all the right things), but he's been a huge disappointment so far, and appears to be more interested in celebrity culture than anything else.  Comes across as another "out of touch" politician despite his claims of being a blue collar guy.  For him to claim he "was shocked at how bad this place is", is very troubling.  What has he done to address the crime problem so far?  Wearing a $2,000 tux that says "stop gun crime" doesn't count.  It's still early, so I will give him an "incomplete" at this point.
> 
> Now in his defense, he's severely hamstrung by DA Bragg.  Until New Yorker's get a clue and get rid of Bragg, NYC is going to continue to go down the toilet.


I think the fact he is a former cop it makes him a strong candidate against the attacks of defund the police

not sure what he is doing to help with the crime in NYC though


----------



## watfly (Jul 7, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> I think the fact he is a former cop it makes him a strong candidate against the attacks of defund the police


That's why I was initially optimistic.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 7, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> I think the fact he is a former cop it makes him a strong candidate against the attacks of defund the police
> 
> not sure what he is doing to help with the crime in NYC though


“Defund the police” one day in time a few years ago wants its catch phrase back! LOL!


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 7, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Defund the police” one day in time a few years ago wants its catch phrase back! LOL!


the lol after everyone of your post is great


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 7, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> the lol after everyone of your post is great


Daffy is what it is....he and Kamala...


----------



## tenacious (Jul 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Really?  I was cautiously optimistic when he was elected (he was saying all the right things), but he's been a huge disappointment so far, and appears to be more interested in celebrity culture than anything else.  Comes across as another "out of touch" politician despite his claims of being a blue collar guy.  For him to claim he "was shocked at how bad this place is", is very troubling.  What has he done to address the crime problem so far?  Wearing a $2,000 tux that says "stop gun crime" doesn't count.  It's still early, so I will give him an "incomplete" at this point.
> 
> Now in his defense, he's severely hamstrung by DA Bragg.  Until New Yorker's get a clue and get rid of Bragg, NYC is going to continue to go down the toilet.


Disappointment? On crime he has yet to make a decisive move that fixes the problem and will propel his career on the national stage.  
But all the street sign post are being painted and the trash picked up.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> *WTF?*
> 
> *Bodega worker in Rikers on murder charge after stabbing attacker in self-defense*
> 
> ...


Yea... here behind the progressive curtain life is getting crazy.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 8, 2022)

First of all I want to see this lady debate Trump. But also aside from Ron DeSantas, she would have to be the only other Republican I see as capable of being president. So... I'm pulling for her to run for president. 









						Liz Cheney Wins the GOP’s Manhood Contest
					

Josh Hawley says real men value courage. Not many in Trump’s party clear the bar.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 8, 2022)

Bidens America.






						'A drag queen for every school': Michigan AG reportedly dismisses concerns over kids, drag
					






					wwmt.com


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 8, 2022)

tenacious said:


> First of all I want to see this lady debate Trump. But also aside from Ron DeSantas, she would have to be the only other Republican I see as capable of being president. So... I'm pulling for her to run for president.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd vote Cheney....let's have Kamala and Liz on the 2024 Presidential Ballot...


----------



## watfly (Jul 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I'd vote Cheney....let's have Kamala and Liz on the 2024 Presidential Ballot...


Hate to burst your bubble, but Kamala couldn't get out of a primary.  What did she get last time, something like 3%?  If she gets anything higher than that in 2024 that would mean Hilary, Bernie and Joe must be running.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Hate to burst your bubble, but Kamala couldn't get out of a primary.  What did she get last time, something like 3%?  If she gets anything higher than that in 2024 that would mean Hilary, Bernie and Joe must be running.


You're not bursting my bubble...but if we're wishing, why not? 
Kamala is the VP and seemingly the next in line....
The Dems won't nominate Joe or Bernie...Hilary has almost as much baggage as Trump...so I can't imagine them being nominated...


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I'd vote Cheney....let's have Kamala and Liz on the 2024 Presidential Ballot...


I was thinking Liz and Gavin.


----------



## watfly (Jul 8, 2022)

espola said:


> I was thinking Liz and Gavin.


If I were betting, I'd put money on Gavin winning the Dem nomination.  I hate to say if I was betting right now who I'd wager on for the R nomination.  Wanting and wagering are two different things.  

To match D's picking R candidates like Cheney and Kinzinger, the equivalent would R's wanting Tulsi as the D nominee...or I guess you could argue Manchin or Sinema.  I think most are in favor of more moderate candidates it just ain't gonna happen.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> If I were betting, I'd put money on Gavin winning the Dem nomination.  I hate to say if I was betting right now who I'd wager on for the R nomination.  Wanting and wagering are two different things.
> 
> To match D's picking R candidates like Cheney and Kinzinger, the equivalent would R's wanting Tulsi as the D nominee...or I guess you could argue Manchin or Sinema.  I think most are in favor of more moderate candidates it just ain't gonna happen.


My long-term desire is not for more moderate candidates, but for more independent candidates.  Being tied to a major political party puts a candidate in debt to the desires of the big-money contributors.  Thanks to the modern communications advances, spreading a candidate's message does not have to be expensive, at least not as expensive as in the past.  A few well-written tweets or youtube videos can reach every American voter.


----------



## watfly (Jul 8, 2022)

espola said:


> My long-term desire is not for more moderate candidates, but for more independent candidates.  Being tied to a major political party puts a candidate in debt to the desires of the big-money contributors.  Thanks to the modern communications advances, spreading a candidate's message does not have to be expensive, at least not as expensive as in the past.  A few well-written tweets or youtube videos can reach every American voter.


Theoretically possible, but I don't know about in reality, although Perot did beat Bill in Utah.


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2022)

watfly said:


> Theoretically possible, but I don't know about in reality, although Perot did beat Bill in Utah.


All Perot did was make himself interesting for the evening news sound-bite machines.


----------



## crush (Jul 8, 2022)

Enjoy voting for Liz you guys. You all seem to have amazing wisdom and insights.


----------



## crush (Jul 8, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 8, 2022)

Liz is as much a rhino as her dad...


----------



## espola (Jul 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Liz is as much a rhino as her dad...


Another benefit.


----------



## crush (Jul 8, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Liz is as much a rhino as her dad...


Don't get me started with her dad Dick. He played me hard with the Twin Towers and WMDs as did the other Dick, Mr. Rummy. War Hawks with our kids blood is never going to happen again. BTW, the news is not telling us the Truth if you haven't figured that out. NATO is going into Ukraine and we have ((according to my source)) 300,000 troops waiting to go help at the boarder.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 8, 2022)

espola said:


> Another benefit.


I didn't & won't vote for Trump...I'd vote for Liz if she ran in 2022...
If Biden runs in 2022 he will loose...


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 9, 2022)

More rest for Joe 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545894586089984000


----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)

I have never clicked on anything from 4Chan. That place is nasty.


----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)

You guys, I know you all hate Trump for your reasons and I get it, trust me. The crap that is hitting the dark web right now about what Pops was up to and what Pops taught his son Hunter is pure evil and this type of evil behavior will be eradicated from this planet once and for all. Like I said 3+ years ago, this planet was made for creation and having babies and building families, not killing the baby before it's born. I would repent quickly and get on the good side. Trump will go down as the GOAT, mark my words!!!


----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)

Pop= *P*ed* O* *P*eter 
Lord, please help everyone understand what has been going on behind dark dark pay to play doors in the dark rooms in the back. God will NOT be mocked!!!


----------



## crush (Jul 10, 2022)

Hey @tenacious, do you still feel like Pops is a good man?


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

Meet Flipper everybody. He never died dummies. His old pal Bill wanted to speak with him when he was in "jail" and Jeffrey told Bill to "F Off."  Think about that for a second. When t said he caught them all, wtf you think he caught? They caught them all cheating in 2020 as well as the Lap Top from Hell. We got infiltrated big time and that was a long time ago. Let's see who on here is for the sell outs or for America first.


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

Husker and Espola's fav Father and Son combo. I aslo just read some scary shit about  Papa Bush and his son George. One did JFK and the other did 911. Little Jorge was snorting cocaine as well and that makes people do some crazy ass shit!!!


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

Rhino Liz is funded by Obama and Killary. Go figure......


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

This ad just came in for those living in NY.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 11, 2022)

crush said:


> Husker and Espola's fav Father and Son combo. I aslo just read some scary shit about  Papa Bush and his son George. One did JFK and the other did 911. Little Jorge was snorting cocaine as well and that makes people do some crazy ass shit!!!
> 
> View attachment 14228


Take a deep breath crush...maybe cut back on the caffeine a bit...


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Take a deep breath crush...maybe cut back on the caffeine a bit...


TDS still got you....lol!


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Take a deep breath crush...maybe cut back on the caffeine a bit...


When you have two best friends die on you with heart attacks, I don;t think so


----------



## crush (Jul 11, 2022)

So Joe is a good man and Trump is the Chump and needs to be arrested for Jan 6th?


----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Take a deep breath crush...maybe cut back on the caffeine a bit...


I woke up and took a deep breath this morning and cut back on my coffee like you said and I feel chill and relaxed. NYC is preparing their peeps for a Nuke attack. I feel sorry for those trapped in New York.  They want to escape but they have nowhere to go. What is California going to do you think? "Alien's are coming?" I will be gone most of today so I hope you a wonderful day Lion Eyes.


----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)

Were all watching a movie and were all in the movie. What makes a good movie? Good actors and evil actors. The suspense is killing me. Does this actor look familiar to any of you?


----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)

Fulton County, Georgia, Superior Court Judge has ordered Lindsey Graham to testify before a special grand jury in the @realDonaldTrump election probe. Graham will be required to testify on Aug. 2. The judge’s certification filed on Monday described Graham as a "necessary and material witness" to the grand jury probe. (NBC)


----------



## crush (Jul 12, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

*"9.1% Inflation." End of quote. Repeat the line.*


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

Inflation with the big three is 37%. These are insane numbers for the middle class, who cannot handle this. Rich dad, what say you?


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

Why do these monsters want to get Trump? He caught them all with serious crimes against humanity. It's pure and simple folks. Get your head out of your money and look to the Truth. Trump and the Military already knew what was on Weirner's lap top from hell, Hunters lap top from hell and poor Ashley's Diary. They knew about Epstein Island and all those on the guest list. WTF up, seriously you guys and help save the kids. The drip campaign is rough but we need to be shown the Truth. Husker and the other Bots hate the Truth for fear their deeds will be exposed. Got popcorn?


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

*Biden lashes out at reporter asking about dismal approval among Dems: ‘Read the polls, Jack’*


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

Biden's New, New Nickname For MAGA Party
					

"mega party"




					rumble.com


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

To the Bot Guys


----------



## crush (Jul 13, 2022)

*White House called out for cover-up of Biden teleprompter gaffe: ‘Paid to lie for a living  *

Pay to play is now: Paid to lie


----------



## crush (Jul 14, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 14, 2022)

More drips


----------



## crush (Jul 15, 2022)

Pray for Joe, he has a terrible headache. This is not good folks. 









						Truth Social
					

Truth Social is America's "Big Tent" social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.




					truthsocial.com


----------



## crush (Jul 15, 2022)




----------



## tenacious (Jul 15, 2022)

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. 









						Democrats, climate activists grasp for comeback after blow from Manchin
					

The United States, the world's No. 2 producer of greenhouse gas pollution, may find itself with little ability to address the problem.




					www.politico.com


----------



## crush (Jul 15, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)




----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> View attachment 14323


Brandon still plagiarizing...


----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

Hunter is a beaten down man and  was a victim of some serious sh^t as a child. Victim's then can be a victimizer, which is very common in this darkness that most us no nothing about. We need to be shown how evil and deep this went at the highest levels. It's like that Bogs dude in Shawshank got to be in charge of the world  Please everyone, pray for the family. Pray for the kids, pray for Hunter. I 100% believe he flipped and for that, I thank him and forgive him 100%.  Update on crush's schedule today. I will be away from the computer after 1pm today so it's all yours Espola and Husler. I will check in later tonight. I have a HOT double date on the beach and have a bon fire and watch the sunset. I hope you guys can come around and stand for all kids.


----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Brandon still plagiarizing...


Brandon was up to no good and did naughty and taught naughty to his kids and then so on and on. This goes back to bloodlines Lion Eyes.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> View attachment 14306



Just plain sick.


----------



## thirteenknots (Jul 16, 2022)

crush said:


> Brandon was up to no good and did naughty and taught naughty to his kids and then so on and on. This goes back to bloodlines Lion Eyes.


There's an old statement:

" You are the company you keep "

That's Joe Biden and the Democrats.


----------



## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> There's an old statement:
> 
> " You are the company you keep "
> 
> That's Joe Biden and the Democrats.


No, it's Joe and the political establishment, which has D + R in it. Stop labeling one party good and the other party evil. We the people need to fix this and they want us divided bro. This is now the time to be American and nothing else.


----------



## tenacious (Jul 17, 2022)

crush said:


> No, it's Joe and the political establishment, which has D + R in it. Stop labeling one party good and the other party evil. We the people need to fix this and they want us divided bro. This is now the time to be American and nothing else.


Your hate of Biden seems a bit strange to me.  I was raised Methodist and not Catholic, but my read is Biden is likely going to get into heaven. Again I see him as a decent man, who got the job through litmus test politics and unfortunately isn't up to the moment. So while I question if he's the right guy for the job, to me he looks like someone doing the best they can, with the tools he has, in the terrible situation he finds himself in.

Did the Trump family go to church?


----------



## crush (Jul 17, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Your hate of Biden seems a bit strange to me.  I was raised Methodist and not Catholic, but my read is Biden is likely going to get into heaven. Again I see him as a decent man, who got the job through litmus test politics and unfortunately isn't up to the moment. So while I question if he's the right guy for the job, to me he looks like someone doing the best they can, with the tools he has, in the terrible situation he finds himself in.
> 
> Did the Trump family go to church?


I do not hate Biden. I hate what he and others have done. Let me help you out tenacious. Our education system is a mess and corrupt. That's why so many are doing home school. Our churches have been compromised as well. Now people are doing "home church." Your home needs to be a church first. Joe's "house church" was gnarly. Peace to you. I do not judge, that's Gods job.


----------



## crush (Jul 17, 2022)

Pray for Joe you guys and those WHO are controlling him and please pray for our country or at least send happy thoughts to the Universe.  Happy Sunday of Rest. I went body surfing under Red Flag conditions yesterday. It was big and I was on fire. My wife was scared at first but saw me having so much fun and taking some huge waves. Dolphins came to me and the waves were insanely fun. It was the place where I placed my mom's ashes and and I got to experience a very cool time with her. 55 years old and I felt like I was 14 again  Thank you Bette for caring for my bio mother and then adopting me 1 year later 









						Fmr Obama WH Doc: Something Is Causing Biden's Cognitive Decline
					

Rep. Ronny Jackson: "these aren't gaffes anymore, something's changed ... Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, multi-infarct dementia, I don't know what he's got going on, but he has something that's causing him




					rumble.com


----------



## crush (Jul 17, 2022)




----------



## tenacious (Jul 19, 2022)

I can understand Bernie being upset; voters are growing disenchanted with progressives and this currently congress is likely the last time in his political career there will be a democrat majority in both houses.  However for those of us who are concerned about inflation and the politics of throwing money at everything... JM feels to me like a breath of fresh air.  



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/07/18/sanders-eruption-manchin-democratic-party/


----------



## tenacious (Jul 19, 2022)

crush said:


> View attachment 14340


Deep breaths homie. I think your Hunter Derangement Syndrome (HDS) is flaring up again...


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 28, 2022)

We ate officially in a recession.  Thanks Joe...


----------



## crush (Jul 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> We ate officially in a recession.  Thanks Joe...


It's all Trumps fault...lol


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 28, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> We ate officially in a recession.  Thanks Joe...


*are


----------



## Multi Sport (Jul 28, 2022)

crush said:


> It's all Trumps fault...lol


President Trump handed Biden a growing economy.  This administration is an unmitigated disaster...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 29, 2022)

Wondering...does raising taxes fight inflation?


----------



## crush (Jul 29, 2022)




----------



## espola (Jul 29, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Wondering...does raising taxes fight inflation?


Reduces the money supply.  Even Izzy gets that right.


----------



## crush (Jul 29, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 29, 2022)

espola said:


> Reduces the money supply.  Even Izzy gets that right.


Low bar.


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 29, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Wondering...does raising taxes fight inflation?


It’s the inflation reduction act , of course it will tackle inflation

no need to worry


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Reduces the money supply.  Even Izzy gets that right.


So you don't know....


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 30, 2022)

*Push for Higher Taxes is Misguided During a Time of Inflation and Looming Recession*
July 27, 2022

....Indeed, by most accounts current inflation was ultimately caused to a large extent by spending—the federal government spent more than $5 trillion, or 27 percent of GDP, during the pandemic, on top of the usual spending, in the form of stimulus checks, enhanced child credits, and other benefits. The splurge was debt financed, with the Federal Reserve purchasing much of that debt through money creation, without a state plan to repay the debt. .
entire article:








						Push for Higher Taxes is Misguided During a Time of Inflation and Looming Recession
					

Some 40 years ago, the U.S. dealt with high inflation and slow economic growth. Then as now, the solution is a long-term focus on stronger economic growth and sustainable federal budgets.




					taxfoundation.org


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 30, 2022)

*Tax Increases Won’t Cure Inflation*
*Another bright idea from the folks who brought you Modern Monetary Theory.*

*The same policy wizards who brought you soaring inflation are now offering what they claim is a solution to inflation: Raise taxes. Our advice is to consider the source and the economic record their previous advice produced.*









						Opinion | Tax Increases Won’t Cure Inflation
					

Another bright idea from the folks who brought you Modern Monetary Theory.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 30, 2022)

I’m sure we will see the Paul Krugman link rebuttal


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 30, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Low bar.


Janet Yellen...


----------



## crush (Jul 30, 2022)




----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 30, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> President Trump handed Biden a growing economy.  This administration is an unmitigated disaster...


Do you honestly believe this?  I mean in Trump's defense covid did slam the economy, but do you really think he handed Biden a "growing" economy?


----------



## thirteenknots (Jul 31, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Do you honestly believe this?  I mean in Trump's defense covid did slam the economy, but do you really think he handed Biden a "growing" economy?



YES !

" YOUR " Resident is a living train wreck.


----------



## crush (Jul 31, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Do you honestly believe this?  I mean in Trump's defense covid did slam the economy, but do you really think he handed Biden a "growing" economy?


My economy was cranking with T, as was my fav Thai place and so many mom & pop biz. My other friend got fired for not taking the jab so some of us are trying to make rebound. I know you have rainy day fund for life it sounds like or at least a great income with the jab and I'm super happy for you. Not all of us had 3 years of extra $$$ around to use as Hunter & Joe sold us ALL out. I do believe in Karma and I'm starting to see some tables turn.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 1, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Do you honestly believe this?  I mean in Trump's defense covid did slam the economy, but do you really think he handed Biden a "growing" economy?


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 1, 2022)

The Lockstep Liberals are creating a revolt by their very actions.

The problem with the " revolt " is harnessing the movement for good.

If the '" revolt " goes rogue, then the NWO/WEF will win. Hands down.

If the " revolt " follows traditional paths, then humanity will win.


----------



## crush (Aug 1, 2022)




----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 5, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> View attachment 14449


Yeah I don't think that's the correct way to view this.  Obviously with such a massive drop in growth 20 Q1/Q2 due to the lockdowns we'd see a subsequent increase when things re-opened.  This had more with state policies and the vaccine.  I wouldn't say Trump handed Biden a growing economy at all.   At the same time, Trump had to deal with covid.

Looking at some of the more recent data coming out Biden seems to be doing ok.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 5, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah I don't think that's the correct way to view this.  Obviously with such a massive drop in growth 20 Q1/Q2 due to the lockdowns we'd see a subsequent increase when things re-opened.  This had more with state policies and the vaccine.  I wouldn't say Trump handed Biden a growing economy at all.   At the same time, Trump had to deal with covid.
> 
> Looking at some of the more recent data coming out Biden seems to be doing ok.


. . . the same people that went along with the idea that trump was handed a dismal economy and dumpster fire America. Remember “American carnage” . . . as I looked around and saw nothing of the kind.


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 5, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> . . . the same people that went along with the idea that trump was handed a dismal economy and dumpster fire America. Remember “American carnage” . . . as I looked around and saw nothing of the kind.



You live in a cul-de-sac
You associate with Socialists/Communists
You believed Fauci's Lies and jabbed
You will never face the TRUTH until it hits you personally

And it will.

Make sure and monitor your heart.
I mean that sincerely.


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 5, 2022)

Is it real life Weekend at Bernie’s going on at the White House 

guy can’t stop testing positive


----------



## crush (Aug 8, 2022)




----------



## Brav520 (Aug 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557011318175047680


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557011318175047680


It's really quite sad how he is being propped up by Jill and his handlers.  I actually feel bad for him.  It's cruel how they are using him.









						Awkward video shows Biden stuck in his jacket as he’s forced to ask Jill for help
					

Biden’s signature aviator sunglasses, balanced precariously on top of his mask, also fell on the tarmac




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Looking at some of the more recent data coming out Biden seems to be doing ok.


What, pray tell, could that data be?  If your talking gas prices coming down, Biden doesn't get credit for fires he started originally.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> What, pray tell, could that data be?  If your talking gas prices coming down, Biden doesn't get credit for fires he started originally.


July jobs report looks pretty good for Biden.  Not sure why you think Biden started the fires re: gas prices.  While I don't think gas prices coming down are due to anything he really did -- the fact of the matter is they are coming down.  A lot of great legislation has been passed recently.  Even L. Graham complemented Biden for passing bipartisan bills.   I know many will hate to admit it, but things are definitely looking up for the dems and Biden (not suggesting I want him in 2024).


----------



## espola (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> What, pray tell, could that data be?  If your talking gas prices coming down, Biden doesn't get credit for fires he started originally.


Gas prices is a beginning against inflation because of transportation costs rolled into the cost of everything else, the big climate change bill just passed, and the good July job numbers.

What fire did he start?


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> July jobs report looks pretty good for Biden.  Not sure why you think Biden started the fires re: gas prices.  While I don't think gas prices coming down are due to anything he really did -- the fact of the matter is they are coming down.  A lot of great legislation has been passed recently.  Even L. Graham complemented Biden for passing bipartisan bills.   I know many will hate to admit it, but things are definitely looking up for the dems and Biden (not suggesting I want him in 2024).


We won't know til the hard quarter inflation numbers are out, but the likelihood is this is the "top" of the roller coaster.  Jobs and inflation have gone traditionally the opposite of each other (with certain exceptions) and when inflation gets better, the economy by necessity must at least moderately contract.  The reason is the excess money supply is what causes inflation, and withdrawing money from the economy contracts it (which in turn affects jobs....which is a lagging indicator).

What the economic experts are trying to achieve is a so-called "soft landing" where inflation calms down and the jobs market isn't necessarily impacted.  It's very hard to get that soft landing though because you can notoriously over or undershoot and they don't have full control over what's going on, such as the impact of the legislation. 

The other possibility is that rather than this being the top of the roller coaster is actually worse: that they haven't done enough to bring down inflation, which means the fed will have to pump the breaks far more furiously and do more economic damages to tame inflation.  The sign to watch for which it is: if there is a correction in the supply issues (both goods and labor) that we've been having...it means the market has attained equilibrium again instead of hurtling towards either direction.

p.s. I wouldn't look to heavily at gasoline prices going forward....we are going to begin to shift to winter blends soon...the food indexes are a leading indicator.


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 9, 2022)

It was the Putin who caused the gas increase , is Putin responsible for the prices going down ?


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> We won't know til the hard quarter inflation numbers are out, but the likelihood is this is the "top" of the roller coaster.  Jobs and inflation have gone traditionally the opposite of each other (with certain exceptions) and when inflation gets better, the economy by necessity must at least moderately contract.  The reason is the excess money supply is what causes inflation, and withdrawing money from the economy contracts it (which in turn affects jobs....which is a lagging indicator).
> 
> What the economic experts are trying to achieve is a so-called "soft landing" where inflation calms down and the jobs market isn't necessarily impacted.  It's very hard to get that soft landing though because you can notoriously over or undershoot and they don't have full control over what's going on, such as the impact of the legislation.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure what industry is confident in this current economy , maybe bankruptcy and divorce lawyers 

fintech and obviously the mortgage industry is getting crushed right now

let’s see what 4q brings ,if massive layoffs are going happen then that is when most of them probably will take place


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 9, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> It was the Putin who caused the gas increase , is Putin responsible for the prices going down ?


I'm guessing demand went down for gas....


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 9, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> I’m not sure what industry is confident in this current economy , maybe bankruptcy and divorce lawyers
> 
> fintech and obviously the mortgage industry is getting crushed right now
> 
> let’s see what 4q brings ,if massive layoffs are going happen then that is when most of them probably will take place


My hunch is we are undershooting what we need to do and the fed has not been aggressive enough.   Contrary to it's name, the fight inflation bill will actually increase the money supply so there's also that issue, and the labor market remains tight because the retirees aren't headed back into the chaotic labor market anytime soon.  My guess is we undershot, especially given where interest rates have historically been, but I'm not ready to predict it yet and we have yet to see the fed's next steps


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> July jobs report looks pretty good for Biden.  Not sure why you think Biden started the fires re: gas prices.  While I don't think gas prices coming down are due to anything he really did -- the fact of the matter is they are coming down.  A lot of great legislation has been passed recently.  Even L. Graham complemented Biden for passing bipartisan bills.   I know many will hate to admit it, but things are definitely looking up for the dems and Biden (not suggesting I want him in 2024).


Biden's first day on the job he restricted future production of oil.  Overlay a chart of Biden's tenure with gas prices and tell me its just a coincidence.  As far as legislation passed, the CBO is stating that the Inflation Seduction Act will not reduce inflation.  Even your favorite Democrat, Bernie can see through the fallacy of its name.  I give some credit for the bipartisan legislation but to call it great is an exaggeration.  I give it a "cool, we agreed on something."

I can admit that things are looking a little better for the Dems but I can't say the same for Biden.  The generic ballot (assuming its an even relevant standard) shows the Dems basically even with Repubs.  Biden's ratings continue to plummet and the poor guy can't even put on his own coat and gets lost shaking hands.

I will be curious how abortion impacts the next election.  It and green energy are down the list in terms voters concerns.  However, if any states are putting abortion on the ballot I would expect that to increase Dem voter turnout.  While ethically questionable, it was pretty savvy for Democrats to fund MAGA candidates in the primaries.  I don't doubt the ability of the Repubs to screw up things between now and November.


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> July jobs report looks pretty good for Biden.


Have you tried to hire anyone recently?  Its nearly impossible to find new employees.  The problem is people unwilling to work to fill the jobs which is hampering not only the recovery but is contributing to higher prices.

Right now we have over 91 million people that "don't want a job now".  That includes over 33 million aged 16-54.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> Have you tried to hire anyone recently?  Its nearly impossible to find new employees.  The problem is people unwilling to work to fill the jobs which is hampering not only the recovery but is contributing to higher prices.
> 
> Right now we have over 91 million people that "don't want a job now".  That includes over 33 million aged 16-54.


I had a roadside emergency near a busy freeway interchange a few weeks ago.  It happened at 7:30 pm on a workweek.  I managed to get over to the shoulder and call AAA.  Firstly, it tried to route me to the stupid app which I don't carry on my phone or to log on and leave a chat message with the autobot.  It being not an entirely safe area on the freeway, I declined to go automated and so had to wait 20 minutes to get a real person.  Because I was disabled on the freeway, it was labelled a "priority" service.  The priority service took until 10:30 to arrive.  I'd never experienced such a delay before using AAA so was shocked by how long it was taking.

A very nice Highway Patrol officer pulled in to check on me and to block off traffic to enable me to get the car to a safer location.  He didn't want to leave me in the now safer place on the freeway alone.  He explained that the city tow trucks go off duty at 7 so a 3 hour wait was just about right.  The tow companies have been unable to fill the private slots (so there's a shortage) because no one wants to work the odd hours for the amount of money they are offering....those people that they have are insisting working the mornings and afternoons.  The surge in traffic and the staffing shortages means its impossible to get a tow truck even for a priority service from 7-10 weekday evenings and God help you if you have a problem Sunday evening when vacation traffic is returning.

Only two things can return that market to equillibrium.  Either they start charge massive surge pricing for those hours that motivates people to sign up to work the hours (which in turn increases the money supply).  Or economic activity falls and people are forced to work those hours if they want the job.


----------



## crush (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> It's really quite sad how he is being propped up by Jill and his handlers.  I actually feel bad for him.  It's cruel how they are using him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I calmed down and I'm back bro. I think Trump is propping up this Joe. Come on man, this is not the old Joe. This is 100% one of the actors playing his spot.


----------



## crush (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> What, pray tell, could that data be?  If your talking gas prices coming down, Biden doesn't get credit for fires he started originally.


Nocal is talking about the 500,000 new jobs. How many of these 1/2 mill are second & 3rd jobs to help pay them bills? I took a Uber the other night and this really smart man was driving us in his really nice SUV. He does weekend late nights for Uber to help cover the cost of life. His real job is at Lockheed Martin. He does the extra so his wife can stay home with the kids full time. Cool guy and I gave him a nice tip.


----------



## crush (Aug 9, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> I’m not sure what industry is confident in this current economy , maybe bankruptcy and divorce lawyers
> 
> fintech and obviously the mortgage industry is getting crushed right now
> 
> let’s see what 4q brings ,if massive layoffs are going happen then that is when most of them probably will take place


Weed biz is big time. My buddy is a multi millionair and sells weed and dabs. All legal. Big Pharma is big biz and Urgent Care biz.


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Only two things can return that market to equillibrium.  Either they start charge massive surge pricing for those hours that motivates people to sign up to work the hours (which in turn increases the money supply).  Or economic activity falls and people are forced to work those hours if they want the job.


What we're seeing is employers offering sizable signing bonuses even for minimum wage jobs.  Although no reputable business pays minimum wage in SoCal anymore.  We had to do across the board raises because we were having to pay new hires as much as employees who had been with us for a few years.  That's on top of the relatively generous bonuses we give and full medical.


----------



## baldref (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> What we're seeing is employers offering sizable signing bonuses even for minimum wage jobs.  Although no reputable business pays minimum wage in SoCal anymore.  We had to do across the board raises because we were having to pay new hires as much as employees who had been with us for a few years.  That's on top of the relatively generous bonuses we give and full medical.


where do i apply?


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

baldref said:


> where do i apply?


You're overqualified.


----------



## crush (Aug 9, 2022)

baldref said:


> where do i apply?


That's what I was thinking bald ref. Watty takes care of his workers and that is a good thing.


----------



## espola (Aug 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I had a roadside emergency near a busy freeway interchange a few weeks ago.  It happened at 7:30 pm on a workweek.  I managed to get over to the shoulder and call AAA.  Firstly, it tried to route me to the stupid app which I don't carry on my phone or to log on and leave a chat message with the autobot.  It being not an entirely safe area on the freeway, I declined to go automated and so had to wait 20 minutes to get a real person.  Because I was disabled on the freeway, it was labelled a "priority" service.  The priority service took until 10:30 to arrive.  I'd never experienced such a delay before using AAA so was shocked by how long it was taking.
> 
> A very nice Highway Patrol officer pulled in to check on me and to block off traffic to enable me to get the car to a safer location.  He didn't want to leave me in the now safer place on the freeway alone.  He explained that the city tow trucks go off duty at 7 so a 3 hour wait was just about right.  The tow companies have been unable to fill the private slots (so there's a shortage) because no one wants to work the odd hours for the amount of money they are offering....those people that they have are insisting working the mornings and afternoons.  The surge in traffic and the staffing shortages means its impossible to get a tow truck even for a priority service from 7-10 weekday evenings and God help you if you have a problem Sunday evening when vacation traffic is returning.
> 
> Only two things can return that market to equillibrium.  Either they start charge massive surge pricing for those hours that motivates people to sign up to work the hours (which in turn increases the money supply).  Or economic activity falls and people are forced to work those hours if they want the job.


If you take money from one pocket and put it in another you have not increased the money supply.

Even Izzy gets that right.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 9, 2022)

espola said:


> If you take money from one pocket and put it in another you have not increased the money supply.
> 
> Even Izzy gets that right.



Fine.  Imprecise language on my part.  If wages rise (because employees are demanding it to keep up with the rising costs of goods and services), that effect can be inflationary, because it creates an ever rising cycle between the goods and services going up, and employees demanding their wages rise to keep up.  The only thing you are doing is devaluing the currency and creating an inflationary spiral.  (It's also more complicated than that...wages tend to be sticky in both directions...but how sticky is a sign about how inflationary things are).  That's why recessions work to tame inflation....people are forced to take jobs they otherwise might not want and have less money to spend on goods and services.  A healthy labor market with low unemployment is not necessarily a good thing if you are trying to tame inflation.  To where we began, it's either: a. a lagging indicator that the labor market will slow later in time, or b. a signal that we haven't done enough to achieve the so-called "soft landing".  Inflation doesn't go away without pain.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're overqualified.


@baldref also laughs too much via emoticon.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> @baldref also laughs too much via emoticon.


Also, why would you hire anyone who posts on these forums during work hours


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Also, why would you hire anyone who posts on these forums during work hours


That's why I have a quote above my office door that says "Do as I say, not as I do".


----------



## watfly (Aug 9, 2022)

crush said:


> That's what I was thinking bald ref. Watty takes care of his workers and that is a good thing.


Well, we can afford to do it.  Most businesses will do the same if they can afford to, unlike how many business owners are portrayed.  Unfortunately, many small businesses can't.


----------



## baldref (Aug 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're overqualified.


damn. story of my life.....


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm guessing demand went down for gas....


Dumb as a rock you are.


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 9, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Also, why would you hire anyone who posts on these forums during work hours



Your income is based on California Tax revenue.
Ask yourself.


----------



## crush (Aug 10, 2022)




----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

The latest is in some really Ministry of Truth stuff the Biden White House is claiming we have 0% inflation because inflation didn't escalate from 8.5% YOY.  In other words, the truth is inflation didn't inflate (i.e., accelerate), not we have 0% inflation.  It's partially good news....mostly due to the decline in gas prices....but I noted that the thing you need to watch if the food numbers and they are up...more confirmation we are missing the so-called "soft landing" because the money supply hasn't been contracted enough.  If true, the worst is still to come, but I'm not prepared to say yet that's for sure what's happening.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557372486244868098


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The latest is in some really Ministry of Truth stuff the Biden White House is claiming we have 0% inflation because inflation didn't escalate from 8.5% YOY.  In other words, the truth is inflation didn't inflate (i.e., accelerate), not we have 0% inflation.  It's partially good news....mostly due to the decline in gas prices....but I noted that the thing you need to watch if the food numbers and they are up...more confirmation we are missing the so-called "soft landing" because the money supply hasn't been contracted enough.  If true, the worst is still to come, but I'm not prepared to say yet that's for sure what's happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you been taking math advice from Izzy?  This looks like his level of understanding of percentages.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Have you been taking math advice from Izzy?  This looks like his level of understanding of percentages.


              

You know, right, even in the best of times the economy, short of a massive deflationary event (like the great depression) doesn't have 0% inflation?


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> You know, right, even in the best of times the economy, short of a massive deflationary event (like the great depression) doesn't have 0% inflation?


The major impact to bring inflation to 0% in July was the decline in gasoline prices which you would know if you read more than just the headline.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> The major impact to bring inflation to 0% in July was the decline in gasoline prices which you would know if you read more than just the headline.


I swear this is the funniest thing you've ever written.  It's just gone completely whooosh over your head!  I really do love yah.  Yah made my day.  Thanks for that.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I swear this is the funniest thing you've ever written.  It's just gone completely whooosh over your head!  I really do love yah.  Yah made my day.  Thanks for that.


You seem to be confusing economic theory with economic facts.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> You seem to be confusing economic theory with economic facts.


                
Stop it......you're killing me!!!!!!


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Stop it......you're killing me!!!!!!


In proper economic theory, the terms "inflation" and "deflation" refer to the money (and equivalents) in circulation.  What is commonly referred to as "inflation" by the popular press (and you also, depending on which foot you are standing at the moment) is actually the Consumer Price Index, which is measured monthly.

I now return control of this channel to Izzy and friends.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> In proper economic theory, the terms "inflation" and "deflation" refer to the money (and equivalents) in circulation.  What is commonly referred to as "inflation" by the popular press (and you also, depending on which foot you are standing at the moment) is actually the Consumer Price Index, which is measured monthly.
> 
> I now return control of this channel to Izzy and friends.


a. I really don't think Biden was referring to the money supply here.  That's just disingenous on your part.
b. If he's referring to just the money supply (as opposed to prices) it was (at least before the Inflation Reduction Act was passed) actually less than zero because the fed is contracting the money supply so it is moving in a negative direction 
c. If you want to get technical, it's actually when the market for money (interest rates on the y, demand for money on the x), otherwise known as D, shifts rightward.
d. But don't gas light.  We all know what's meant.  From wikipedia, "In economics, inflation is a general increase in the prices of goods and services in an economy".  First sentence.  We all know what he did...he "confused" the rate of acceleration (or in more technical terms, the delta of the D) with the rate itself YoY.
e. The fact the media is running with it is some real ministry of truth stuff.   "There is no inflation!!!!"
f. There's no pretzel you won't shift yourself into is there?  You are out there swimming just joshing it up and before you know it you just cramped up and sank to the bottom.  It's been a ton of amusing to watch.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> a. I really don't think Biden was referring to the money supply here.  That's just disingenous on your part.
> b. If he's referring to just the money supply (as opposed to prices) it was (at least before the Inflation Reduction Act was passed) actually less than zero because the fed is contracting the money supply so it is moving in a negative direction
> c. If you want to get technical, it's actually when the market for money (interest rates on the y, demand for money on the x), otherwise known as D, shifts rightward.
> d. But don't gas light.  We all know what's meant.  From wikipedia, "In economics, inflation is a general increase in the prices of goods and services in an economy".  First sentence.  We all know what he did...he "confused" the rate of acceleration (or in more technical terms, the delta of the D) with the rate itself YoY.
> ...


Here is what "the media" is saying today --









						Here's what's getting more expensive at the grocery store
					

Inflation may be slowing overall, but food prices are still sky-high.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Speaking of gaslighting, who posted this? --

The Rubicon has just been crossed politically. Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI. If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI. Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin. As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail.

Assuming Biden lives long enough, if the Rs win 2024 they are totally turning the Hunter situation against him. If true, they will turn the covering of Joe Biden's mental state and possible dementia against those around him.

The Latin Americanization of US politics is here.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Speaking of gaslighting, who posted this? --
> 
> The Rubicon has just been crossed politically. Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI. If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI. Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin. As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail.
> 
> ...


                Best day ever with you


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Speaking of gaslighting, who posted this? --
> 
> The Rubicon has just been crossed politically. Trump's Mar Largo residence was raided by the FBI. If the GOP ever take the presidency again (particularly if it's DeSantis) they'll wholesale purge the FBI. Like Latin American Republics, each ingoing admin will use the legal infrastructure to punish (even deservedly so) the outgoing admin. As in Latin America, political contests become existential threats to the politicians because they determine who is going to jail.
> 
> ...


The latest reporting on this BTW is that it was under the presidential records to forcibly recover docs the gov (archives?) had been negotiating for with Trump's attorneys.  They are claiming Garland didn't know.  

So now you have it....if the reporting is true, it's either a political hit job in an environment where the Rs perceive justice goes only one way, or a major f up at the FBI for not involving the top eschlons.   Those 3 r'd agencies (CDC, FBI, DOJ, EPA, DOE, etc) should be quaking if the Rs recover the presidency.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The latest reporting on this BTW is that it was under the presidential records to forcibly recover docs the gov (archives?) had been negotiating for with Trump's attorneys.  They are claiming Garland didn't know.
> 
> So now you have it....if the reporting is true, it's either a political hit job in an environment where the Rs perceive justice goes only one way, or a major f up at the FBI for not involving the top eschlons.   Those 3 r'd agencies (CDC, FBI, DOJ, EPA, DOE, etc) should be quaking if the Rs recover the presidency.


More gaslighting.  

Now that your political position is clear, many of your nonsense posts in the vaccine thread make more sense.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 10, 2022)

*The annual inflation rate in the US slowed more than expected to 8.5% in July of 2022 from an over 40-year high of 9.1% hit in June, and below market forecasts of 8.7%. Energy CPI rose by 32.9%, after hitting a 42-year high of 41.6% in June, mainly due to a big slowdown in gasoline costs (44% vs 59.9%), fuel oil (75.6% vs 98.5%), and natural gas (30.5% vs 38.4%) while electricity prices accelerated (15.2%, the most since February 2006). Cost also slowed for new vehicles (10.4% vs 11.4%) and airline fares (27.7% vs 34.1%). On the other hand, inflation continued to march higher for food (10.9%, the largest increase since May of 1979, vs 10.4%); shelter (5.7% vs 5.6%); and used cars and trucks (6.6% vs 1.7%). Compared to the previous month, the CPI was unchanged, after hitting a 17-year high of 1.3% and also below forecasts of 0.2%. Core inflation was steady at 5.9%, beating expectations of 6.1%, and offering some support that inflation has finally peaked. source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics*





__





						United States Inflation Rate - October 2022 Data - 1914-2021 Historical
					

The annual inflation rate in the US slowed for a 4th month to 7.7% in October, the lowest since January, and below forecasts of 8%. It compares with 8.2% in September. Energy cost increased 17.6%, below 19.8% in September, due to gasoline (17.5% vs 18.2%) and electricity (14.1% vs 15.5%). A...




					tradingeconomics.com


----------



## crush (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The latest reporting on this BTW is that it was under the presidential records to forcibly recover docs the gov (archives?) had been negotiating for with Trump's attorneys.  They are claiming Garland didn't know.
> 
> So now you have it....if the reporting is true, it's either a political hit job in an environment where the Rs perceive justice goes only one way, or a major f up at the FBI for not involving the top eschlons.   Those 3 r'd agencies (CDC, FBI, DOJ, EPA, DOE, etc) should be quaking if the Rs recover the presidency.


Going on vacation with the Big Guy. No one is above the law except my son.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 10, 2022)

A thought experiment: the warrant on trump is getting widespread concern if not outright disapproval even among indies and surprisingly even some moderate ds according to the flash polls.  But the magas have lost their minds calling 2022 and 2024 a last chance to pull from the deep state brink and some already calling for violence and secession.  If they lose what do you think they’ll do?  There’s talk about pushing the governors to, for example, prohibit certain fbi activity which no doubt ends badly in a confront with the federal government. Conversely what do the ds do if trump wins?   Remember the first time around there was talk about California seceding. It wasn’t that serious then but if he comes back serious later?  Or is it all post event hysteria that folks eventually back down from?


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> A thought experiment: the warrant on trump is getting widespread concern if not outright disapproval even among indies and surprisingly even some moderate ds according to the flash polls.  But the magas have lost their minds calling 2022 and 2024 a last chance to pull from the deep state brink and some already calling for violence and secession.  If they lose what do you think they’ll do?  There’s talk about pushing the governors to, for example, prohibit certain fbi activity which no doubt ends badly in a confront with the federal government. Conversely what do the ds do if trump wins?   Remember the first time around there was talk about California seceding. It wasn’t that serious then but if he comes back serious later?  Or is it all post event hysteria that folks eventually back down from?


Some people will have a hard time accepting that their hero really is a crook.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Just saw an interview (didn't catch the beginning so I don't know his name) who pointed out that if they have sufficient evidence for a search warrant they probably have sufficient evidence for a wiretap warrant.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Just saw an interview (didn't catch the beginning so I don't know his name) who pointed out that if they have sufficient evidence for a search warrant they probably have sufficient evidence for a wiretap warrant.


The problem is the FBI seemingly thinks most any evidence warrants a wiretap...

According to a new declassified ruling from the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), FBI personnel systematically abused National Security Agency (NSA) mass surveillance data in both 2017 and 2018. The 138-page ruling, which dates back to October 2018, was only unsealed 12 months later in October 2019. It offers a rare look at how the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has been abusing the constitutional privacy rights of U.S. citizens with alarming regularity. The court ruling is also a stinging rebuke to the FBI’s overreach of its ability to search surveillance intelligence databases.

The U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, itself a super-secret court that traditionally approves each and every request of law enforcement agencies such as the FBI, found that employees of the FBI searched data collected under Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) in an inappropriate and potentially unconstitutional manner. These abuses, says the FISA court, included accessing NSA surveillance data to look into the online communications of U.S. citizens, including fellow FBI employees and their family members. All told, there may have been tens of thousands of these improper queries, all of them carried out without any reasonable suspicion of a crime or illegal activity posing a risk to national security. Moreover, many of the FBI’s backdoor searches did not differentiate between U.S. citizens and foreign intelligence targets.

Simply put, the data was available to search, and the FBI willingly took advantage of every opportunity to query the NSA intelligence database. For example, FBI employees routinely used mass surveillance data to investigate potential witnesses and informants. In 2017 alone, the FBI conducted over 3.1 million searches of surveillance data, compared to just 7,500 combined searches by the CIA and NSA. This is particularly troubling because, under current FBI operating procedures, this surveillance data can only be searched if there is reasonable suspicion of crimes having taken place or clear risks to national security. And, yet, FBI employees and FBI contractors were at times searching the database to see what information they could find on U.S. citizens not at all connected to foreign intelligence matters. In short, the FBI violated Americans’ privacy by abusing access to NSA surveillance data with warrantless searches.

One of the hallmarks of the American constitutional system is the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which forbids unreasonable searches or seizures. In practical terms, it means that law enforcement officials or intelligence operatives from the FBI must get a warrant in order to search private property or private communications. In the real world, this is what protects Americans from having police show up at their door and start searching the premises for any reason possible. Instead, they must first go to a court, obtain a warrant, and then show up to search the premises. 

That is what makes the uncovered FBI abuses so troubling from a privacy perspective. Over the past two years (and perhaps even longer), the FBI was essentially able to go on “fishing expeditions” to check out the emails or other online communications of U.S. citizens without getting a warrant in the first place. Apparently, few safeguards really exist to protect communications from being searched improperly. 








						FISA Court Ruled that FBI Improperly Used NSA Surveillance Data to Snoop on Americans - CPO Magazine
					

New declassified ruling shows how FBI abused the constitutional privacy rights of U.S. citizens in 2017 and 2018 by using NSA surveillance data to conduct backdoor searches.




					www.cpomagazine.com


----------



## crush (Aug 10, 2022)

I just saw interview ((didn't catch the name)) that said normal libs are joining the "we the people" movement. Crazy people on the far left and far right patriots who founght in crazy wars and lost pals and frens along the way. Some have lost everything and some and I mean a small group want war and that is a small group. Infiltrators over at TruthSocial trying to bait . The one's who make a buck on chaos are folks that come on here. They live in bubble. My best Lib pal said, "they gone too far. I hate Trump but that's not cool and it now it looks like Trump has something they want." I told him I love him again. We were besties back in the day but he went crazy on Fakebook and full of TDS after HRC lost. I told him why t ran for office and he now saying I was right on just about everything. It had to be these way. You must and will be shown the whole truth and nothing but the Truth and then you will see truly why they hate one man and caused complete chaos. Psycho thinks this is funny......

I can't imagine sheriffs at my door, "search warrant. Get the F out of your house now" 
Crush: but but but,

 Search Warrant Sherriff: You heard me, leave now so.  We need to get some things on you so you stop with all this nonsense.

Can someone help me how search warrants are served in SoCal? Thanks God no knock at my door...lol Trump was the sitting President of this here now United States of America and just sieged with ak47.


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 10, 2022)

Wonder if they found the pee pee tape at his house during the raid


----------



## crush (Aug 10, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Wonder if they found the pee pee tape at his house during the raid


If they allowed t's lawyers to watch and itemize what each box had, then that's fair game in the legal sense. This is insane, regardless of how much you hate the man, unless your a complete liar and psychopath with no feelings of the law for your worst enemy.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Wonder if they found the pee pee tape at his house during the raid


Did they search the Kremlin also?


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 10, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> . . . the same people that went along with the idea that trump was handed a dismal economy and dumpster fire America. Remember “American carnage” . . . as I looked around and saw nothing of the kind.


I thought numbers don't lie? How convenient that you think they do now..

Go back to your day drinking loser..


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 10, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I'm guessing demand went down for gas....


Summer is peak travel season. So no.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 10, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Yeah I don't think that's the correct way to view this.  Obviously with such a massive drop in growth 20 Q1/Q2 due to the lockdowns we'd see a subsequent increase when things re-opened.  This had more with state policies and the vaccine.  I wouldn't say Trump handed Biden a growing economy at all.   At the same time, Trump had to deal with covid.
> 
> Looking at some of the more recent data coming out Biden seems to be doing ok.


You don't think that's the correct way to view it? Well I guess when you want to believe things that are contrary to the graph then your statement would fit. By the very definition of growing the graph proves that Trump handed Biden a growing economy.  You want to believe otherwise.. well that's on you.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Summer is peak travel season. So no.


Down from last year --


From https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/gasoline.php


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 10, 2022)

I guess JB has taken a page out of the Putin playbook.. eliminate your rivals before the election.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Down from last year --
> View attachment 14556
> 
> From https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/gasoline.php


No shit Sherlock..


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> I guess JB has taken a page out of the Putin playbook.. eliminate your rivals before the election.





Multi Sport said:


> No shit Sherlock..


That makes no sense.  I can't think of a better opponent for Biden than t.


----------



## espola (Aug 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> No shit Sherlock..


You're so eloquent today, especially when proven wrong.


----------



## N00B (Aug 10, 2022)

espola said:


> Down from last year --
> View attachment 14556
> 
> From https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/gasoline.php


Yup… When cost goes up, demand/consumption declines.  Next slide, please?


----------



## pewpew (Aug 11, 2022)

espola said:


> Down from last year --
> View attachment 14556
> 
> From https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/gasoline.php


^^^ Why didn't @Hüsker Dü hit the "like" button on this one? 

Where's the slide that shows the price increases for gas from last year vs this year? You conveniently left that one out.
Many are having to make hard choices, groceries and the lights on in the house, or drive around like they used to.


----------



## pewpew (Aug 11, 2022)

espola said:


> You're so eloquent today, especially when proven wrong.


Are you the pot or the kettle?


----------



## pewpew (Aug 11, 2022)

espola said:


> That makes no sense.  I can't think of a better opponent for Biden than t.


Funny how you make sure you capitalize Biden but use a lower-case 't' instead for Trump. I see he's still living rent-free in your head.


----------



## pewpew (Aug 11, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I swear this is the funniest thing you've ever written.  It's just gone completely whooosh over your head!  I really do love yah.  Yah made my day.  Thanks for that.


Don't feed the trolls Grace.


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 11, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Summer is peak travel season. So no.











						‘So Stressed Out’: Gas Prices Force Many to Rethink Driving, and Spending
					

As summer trips beckon, some are traveling less, at least by car. And those candy bars at the convenience store may find fewer takers.




					www.nytimes.com
				




So, yes...


----------



## NorCalDad (Aug 11, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> You don't think that's the correct way to view it? Well I guess when you want to believe things that are contrary to the graph then your statement would fit. By the very definition of growing the graph proves that Trump handed Biden a growing economy.  You want to believe otherwise.. well that's on you.


No, I'm just not a moron and can make sense of data and graphs.


----------



## espola (Aug 11, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> No, I'm just not a moron and can make sense of data and graphs.


Be kind to MS.  He is a dedicated (and demonstrated) true-to-the-heart Trumpy.  He must be going through difficult times now.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 11, 2022)

espola said:


> Be kind to MS.  He is a dedicated (and demonstrated) true-to-the-heart Trumpy.  He must be going through difficult times now.


I’m sure he’s hoping for a civil war. Not that he wants to be involved he just wants his way.


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 11, 2022)

Garland admits he signed off.  They are moving to unseal the documentation.   He did nothing to assure people concerned with potential abuse of process that it wasn't what happened.  Doubling down.  We should know early next week what's up, but as I said before, he better have the goods this time and the polling is reflecting that.


----------



## espola (Aug 11, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Garland admits he signed off.  They are moving to unseal the documentation.   He did nothing to assure people concerned with potential abuse of process that it wasn't what happened.  Doubling down.  We should know early next week what's up, but as I said before, he better have the goods this time and the polling is reflecting that.


Coocoo.


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 11, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557807313095892993


----------



## espola (Aug 11, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Garland admits he signed off.  They are moving to unseal the documentation.   He did nothing to assure people concerned with potential abuse of process that it wasn't what happened.  Doubling down.  We should know early next week what's up, but as I said before, he better have the goods this time and the polling is reflecting that.


Polling is reflecting what?









						Poll: More registered voters approve of Mar-a-Lago search than disapprove
					

The results underscored continued partisan divisions surrounding the former president, even as more respondents supported Trump running for the Oval Office again in 2024 than supported Biden.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I’m sure he’s hoping for a civil war. Not that he wants to be involved he just wants his way.
> View attachment 14562


Yep..your words.  "Numbers don't lie". 

But you do.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 11, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> ‘So Stressed Out’: Gas Prices Force Many to Rethink Driving, and Spending
> 
> 
> As summer trips beckon, some are traveling less, at least by car. And those candy bars at the convenience store may find fewer takers.
> ...


Did you read the article?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 14, 2022)

“I just want to say a number: zero. Today, we received news that our economy had zero inflation in the month of July. Zero percent. Here’s what that means: While the price of some things go up — went up last month, the price of other things went down by the same amount. The result? Zero inflation last month.” _Uncle Joe speaking to the nation last week._
Inflation still stands near a 40-year high and came in at 8.5 percent in July.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 16, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> “I just want to say a number: zero. Today, we received news that our economy had zero inflation in the month of July. Zero percent. Here’s what that means: While the price of some things go up — went up last month, the price of other things went down by the same amount. The result? Zero inflation last month.” _Uncle Joe speaking to the nation last week._
> Inflation still stands near a 40-year high and came in at 8.5 percent in July.


But Trump... you know E and Sunshine are thinking about posting something that includes that in their post.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 16, 2022)

If you're in business for yourself, apparently the IRS is a coming...

Texas cattle ranchers David and Deborah Hajda issued a dire warning to America's middle class after Democrats' spending bill passed both houses of Congress allowing provisions for approximately $80 billion in IRS funding, a majority of which is dedicated to enforcement.

The Raising Five Cattle Company ranchers spoke with Dana Perino on "America's Newsroom" Tuesday, where they recounted the grueling tax audit they experienced 13 years ago.

"We got audited over basically a $7,800 engine rebuild on a very old tractor," Deborah said.

"They just basically said this was a red flag, and we're going to audit you, and we're coming to your house," she added.

Hajda said she asked if she could fax her bank records to the IRS, but they refused to give her the option. Instead, they came to her house and demanded all of her financial records in-person.

"I took out our box of receipts… and we handed it to him, and I said ‘Here’s your receipts'… we weren't hiding anything," she said.

The Hajdas said, while they could not afford to replace the tractor, they kept all records of expenses for the necessary repairs. However, the auditor would not give up so easily.

"He wasn't satisfied. He kept digging, and he ended up nailing us. Our tax person was giving us 80% on our work vehicles, and he said you can only do 50%," David said.

"I was very naive about the situation. I had no idea of the power, the scope [of the audit] going in three years of my life… and me having no control over that, no control over the information he was given," Deborah said.

"It was very invasive. You feel very attacked because that guy wanted to go back and say, ‘I got her.’"

She went on to issue a warning to other middle-class Americans who could soon endure the same process.

"They want to get you. If they're coming after you for an audit, they don't want to see your receipt… they want to nitpick your life apart, and that's not what the American dream is for self-employment, small business…"

Texas cattle ranchers audited by IRS issue dire warning to Americans: 'They want to get you' (msn.com)


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 17, 2022)

Maybe Liz and Mit can form their own political party...


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 17, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Maybe Liz and Mit can form their own political party...


Maybe call it the Grand Old Party...


----------



## crush (Aug 18, 2022)




----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 21, 2022)

Hunter....is that you ?

Nah...It's just Gary gettin Busey.


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 21, 2022)

Checking for Monkeypox.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 25, 2022)

My...my...my...

*New FBI whistleblower claims bureau leadership slow-walked Hunter Biden investigation*
by Jerry Dunleavy, Justice Department Reporter |
 August 24, 2022 09:20 AM


The FBI slow-walked its investigation into Hunter Biden’s laptop, including telling some bureau employees not to look at the hard drive belonging to President Joe Biden’s son, according to reported whistleblower disclosures made public by a top Senate Republican.

Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) sent a letter to DOJ Inspector General Michael Horowitz on Tuesday about the new whistleblower claims, following disclosures made public last month about the bureau allegedly wrongly labeling Hunter Biden evidence as “disinformation” in 2020.

“Whistleblowers have recently contacted my office to share serious concerns about the FBI’s handling of Hunter Biden’s laptop,” Johnson told Horowitz, telling the watchdog that after the FBI obtained the laptop from a Delaware computer shop in late 2019, local FBI leadership told bureau employees that “you will not look at that Hunter Biden laptop” and that the FBI is “not going to change the outcome of the election again,” the whistleblowers said.

Johnson said the new whistleblower claims “allege that the FBI did not begin to examine the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop until after the 2020 presidential election — potentially a year after the FBI obtained the laptop in Dec. 2019.”

Johnson said that the new whistleblower allegations should spur the DOJ inspector general to action.

“It is clear to me based on numerous credible whistleblower disclosures that the FBI cannot be trusted with the handling of Hunter Biden’s laptop,” Johnson told Horowitz this week. “I call on you to immediately investigate the FBI’s handling of Hunter Biden’s laptop and begin by obtaining the history of the investigative actions taken by the FBI on Hunter Biden’s laptop which should be available on the FBI’s case management system, Sentinel."

The latest whistleblower allegations come after more emerged in July that the FBI wrongly labeled verified evidence on Biden as “disinformation."

entire article:








						New FBI whistleblower claims bureau leadership slow-walked Hunter Biden investigation
					

The FBI slow-walked its investigation into Hunter Biden’s laptop, including telling some bureau employees not to look at the hard drive belonging to President Joe Biden’s son, according to reported whistleblower disclosures made public by a top Senate Republican.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 25, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> My...my...my...
> 
> *New FBI whistleblower claims bureau leadership slow-walked Hunter Biden investigation*
> by Jerry Dunleavy, Justice Department Reporter |
> ...


The apolitical FBI
BREAKING: Mark Zuckerberg tells Joe Rogan that Facebook algorithmically censored the Hunter Biden laptop story for 7 days based on a general request from the FBI to restrict election misinformation


----------



## watfly (Aug 25, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> My...my...my...
> 
> *New FBI whistleblower claims bureau leadership slow-walked Hunter Biden investigation*
> by Jerry Dunleavy, Justice Department Reporter |
> ...





Brav520 said:


> The apolitical FBI
> BREAKING: Mark Zuckerberg tells Joe Rogan that Facebook algorithmically censored the Hunter Biden laptop story for 7 days based on a general request from the FBI to restrict election misinformation


This is why the FBI doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in regards to the raid of Maralago...well that and Strzok, McCabe, Comey etc


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 26, 2022)

How y'all feeling about the decision by Uncle Joe regarding college loans?
Cost is gonna be at least $520,000,000,000.00 - that's 520 billion dollars daffy...
Everybody get your check books out and write a check for $2500.00, send it to the IRS.


----------



## espola (Aug 26, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> How y'all feeling about the decision by Uncle Joe regarding college loans?
> Cost is gonna be at least $520,000,000,000.00 - that's 520 billion dollars daffy...
> Everybody get your check books out and write a check for $2500.00, send it to the IRS.


I think your math is a little off.  









						Forgiving up to $20,000 in student debt could cost the U.S. $519 billion
					

Most of the benefit of erasing college loans would go to households earning below $88,000, new analysis finds.




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						Government has forgiven nearly $400 billion in Covid-relief PPP loans
					

More than a million of those forgiven loans were to companies with just one employee, at a cost of $12.8 billion, or an average of $11,497 per job.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## crush (Aug 26, 2022)

watfly said:


> This is why the FBI doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in regards to the raid of Maralago...well that and Strzok, McCabe, Comey etc


Don't forget about Lisa and the 50 intelligent officers who said it's all misinformation. Those guys lied big time. t must have something they want and they went looking for it at Mar A Lago.


----------



## crush (Aug 26, 2022)

Transparency from Joe and his crew!!!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 26, 2022)

espola said:


> I think your math is a little off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tell me more Magoo...


*Biden’s student loan debt forgiveness plan could cost up to $519 billion, according to new analysis*
The Biden administration’s announcement that they will forgive $10,000 in federal student loan debt for borrowers within a certain income cap and up to $20,000 for Pell Grant recipients would cost up to $519 billion, according to a new analysis.

President Joe Biden announced Wednesday that his administration is working to forgive $10,000 in federal student loan debt per borrower, and up to $20,000 in student loan debt for Pell Grant recipients earning less than $125,000 per year (or $250,000 for households). He also extended the pause on federal student loan payments through the end of the year, and the U.S. Department of Education proposed a new income-driven repayment (IDR) plan.

Not all of the details have been released yet. But over the next 10 years, the plan could cost approximately $519 billion, the Penn Wharton Budget Model estimates. In the first year, forgiveness would cost $468.6 billion.









						Biden's student loan debt forgiveness plan could cost up to $519 billion
					

Biden's long-awaited student debt forgiveness plan would be very expensive.




					fortune.com
				




August 23, 2022
FORGIVING STUDENT LOANS: BUDGETARY COSTS AND DISTRIBUTIONAL IMPACT









						Forgiving Student Loans: Budgetary Costs and Distributional Impact — Penn Wharton Budget Model
					

We estimate that forgiving federal college student loan debt will cost between $300 billion and $980 billion over the 10-year budget window, depending on program details. About 70 percent of debt relief accrues to borrowers in the top 60 percent of the income distribution.




					budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu


----------



## crush (Aug 26, 2022)

The Market Lost $1.25 Trillion just for today. Nothing to worry about folks.


----------



## espola (Aug 26, 2022)




----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 26, 2022)

One year ago Joe Biden ignored the recommendation of his military commanders and 13 of our service personnel lost their lives...

Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Darin T. Hoover, 31, of Salt Lake City, Utah

Marine Corps Sgt. Johanny Rosariopichardo, 25, of Lawrence, Massachusetts

Marine Corps Sgt. Nicole L. Gee, 23, of Sacramento, California

Marine Corps Cpl. Hunter Lopez, 22, of Indio, California

Marine Corps Cpl. Daegan W. Page, 23, of Omaha, Nebraska

Marine Corps Cpl. Humberto A. Sanchez, 22, of Logansport, Indiana

Marine Corps Lance Cpl. David L. Espinoza, 20, of Rio Bravo, Texas

Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Jared M. Schmitz, 20, of St. Charles, Missouri

Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Rylee J. McCollum, 20, of Jackson, Wyoming

Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Dylan R. Merola, 20, of Rancho Cucamonga, California

Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Kareem M. Nikoui, 20, of Norco, California

Navy Hospitalman Maxton W. Soviak, 22, of Berlin Heights, Ohio

Army Staff Sgt. Ryan C. Knauss, 23, of Corryton, Tennessee.









NPR


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 26, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 14685


We may not have a national politician with an approval rate much past 50% until a world war or alien invasion.


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2022)

Divider in chief? *Biden likens Trump supporters to fascists *after promising to unite country

A spokesman for the Republican National Committee, Nathan Brand, called Biden's remark "despicable," according to NBC News.

Remember forum frens, they project the very thing they accuse others of doing,


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2022)

Alan Dershowitz says the “left-wing McCarthyism” is an attempt to deny President Trump from getting the best legal representation by blackballing and attacking anyone that defends him. I know the feeling of being blackballed and blacklisted.


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2022)

Blind Bats, do you what I see?  Just look at the ears.


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2022)

“It’s information that Trump felt spoke to matters regarding everything from Russiagate to the Ukraine impeachment fiasco to major national security matters of great public importance — anything the president felt the American people had a right to know is in there and more.”’  Kash on what is in the 15 boxes.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 27, 2022)

Aug 25
3
1


----------



## crush (Aug 27, 2022)




----------



## crush (Aug 28, 2022)




----------



## crush (Aug 30, 2022)




----------



## crush (Aug 30, 2022)




----------



## Brav520 (Aug 30, 2022)

What happened in the last week?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564754912814284802


----------



## pewpew (Aug 31, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> We may not have a national politician with an approval rate much past 50% until a world war or alien invasion.


So what do you call the situation along our Southern Border..especially Texas? Intercontinental travel by undocumented people?
I'll call it what it is..an invasion of illegal aliens. I bet they all approve 100% of your boy Joe.


----------



## crush (Aug 31, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 31, 2022)




----------



## Happened again (Aug 31, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 14756


what exactly is this supposed to tell someone?  what's happening on the other side of the world?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 31, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> View attachment 14756


Brandon claims the southern border is closed...
Brandon ignores *300* deaths a day from the fentanyl crossing that closed border...


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 31, 2022)

U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson in March 2012.
“Under the statutory scheme established by the PRA, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President’s term and in his sole discretion,” Jackson wrote. “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records,” the judge wrote


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 31, 2022)

ECONOMY
*Steve Hanke says we’re going to have one ‘whopper’ of a recession in 2023*


The U.S. economy is going to fall into a recession next year, according to Steve Hanke, a professor of applied economics at Johns Hopkins University, and that’s not necessarily because of higher interest rates.
“We will have a recession because we’ve had five months of zero M2 growth, money supply growth, and the Fed isn’t even looking at it,” he told CNBC’s “Street Signs Asia” on Monday.
Meanwhile, inflation is going to remain high because of “unprecedented growth” in money supply in the United States, Hanke said.
The U.S. economy is going to fall into a recession next year, according to Steve Hanke, a professor of applied economics at Johns Hopkins University, and that’s not necessarily because of higher interest rates.

“We will have a recession because we’ve had five months of zero M2 growth, money supply growth, and the Fed isn’t even looking at it,” he told CNBC’s “Street Signs Asia” on Monday.









						Steve Hanke says we're going to have one 'whopper' of a recession in 2023
					

"The problem we have is that the [Fed Chair Jerome Powell] does not understand ... what the causes of inflation are and were," said the Johns Hopkins professor.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 31, 2022)

Joeseph Robinette Biden = CCP Money
Kamala Devi Harris = KneeCP Money
Nancy Patricia Pelosi = VodkaCP Money

There ya go.... America's current line of succession and the influence.


----------



## thirteenknots (Aug 31, 2022)

" Romney’s National Security Advisor, Joseph Cofer Black, sits on the Board of the same Burisma Holdings that was being investigated for corruption back in 2014, and the Vice President and Obama Administration demanded be shut down. Why? Because Burisma was/is their vehicle for corrupt practices in Eastern Europe. And CIA Director, John Brennan’s 9/11 Deep State partner, Cofer Black, is still the link to all that goes on there. In fact, I can state unequivocally that Burisma is the centre of Ukraine corruption and the Democrats’ shadow organization for corrupt activities. I live in Eastern Europe (Poland) and my sources are first-hand. And I know this matters greatly to Mitt Romney as he is not yet done with politics. If Black is busted, it will reflect on Romney, and it only makes sense that Cofer Black is the Deep State ‘plant’ in case Romney ever rises above polishing knobs in the U.S. Senate. Romney wants to run for President again in 2024 and if he wins, Cofer Black will be back with his fingers on the strings either as DNI or CIA Chief of Corruption. Burisma Holdings is the hub of U.S. Democrat activities to corrupt both Ukraine and American politics and there is proof. Ukraine President Zelenskyy’s win surprised both Brennan and Black’s Deep State ops as much as Trump’s did in 2016 in America."

~ Howell Woltz at The International Centre for Justice, in Warsaw, Poland


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 31, 2022)

*Biden approval falls, holding near low end of his presidency, Reuters/Ipsos finds*

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden's public approval rating fell modestly this week, a poor sign for his Democratic Party's hopes in the Nov. 8 midterm elections, according to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll completed on Tuesday.

The two-day national poll found that 38% of Americans approve of Biden's job performance.

While Biden's approval rating hit 41% last week, it has been mostly below 40% since mid-June despite a string of Democratic legislative victories that Biden's allies hope will help them defend their narrow congressional majorities in November.

Democrats are expected to lose control of the U.S. House of Representatives in November and possibly the Senate as well.

Biden approval falls, holding near low end of his presidency, Reuters/Ipsos finds (msn.com)


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 31, 2022)

Loan forgiveness probably wasnt helpful , and after Biden was essentially gone with Covid and Vacations for a month he has been back in front of the camera doing his normal weird stuff in the last week

they should keep him on permanent vacation until midterms


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Aug 31, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Loan forgiveness probably wasnt helpful , and after Biden was essentially gone with Covid and Vacations for a month he has been back in front of the camera doing his normal weird stuff in the last week
> 
> they should keep him on permanent vacation until midterms


I wonder why trump isn’t out on the stump?


----------



## Lion Eyes (Aug 31, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder why trump isn’t out on the stump?


The real wonder is why you're not institutionalized


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 31, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I wonder why trump isn’t out on the stump?


probably golfing , definitely posting on truth social


----------



## Brav520 (Aug 31, 2022)

'Shoot. Me. Now.': Obama Wanted To Drop ‘Condescending’ Biden, New Book Says - Washington Free Beacon
					

Barack Obama and Joe Biden had such a "fraught relationship" that Obama wanted to drop Biden from the 2012 Democratic ticket, according to excerpts from a new book obtained by the Daily Mail.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2022)

Biden says MAGA Republicans are...
- a "clear and present danger to our democracy" &
- a "threat to the foundation of the Republic"

Biden then calls for all of us to "come together and unite"!  You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2022)

*"MAGA!!!"

*


----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2022)




----------



## crush (Sep 1, 2022)




----------



## thirteenknots (Sep 1, 2022)

Evil....PURE EVIL !!!!


*FJB*


----------



## crush (Sep 2, 2022)

I got some good Lib News. One of my fav lib couples I know are now 100% off the Joe Train and they say no more politics for them. They voted and $upoorted Joe and Hunter because they hated the Orange Man so much they were blind to the evil deeds, cheating, lying, spying and all the stealing. Yes, some think t is asshole but no one has said he is pure evil. The cool thing is this couple is a wake and always loved God and held deep religious beliefs and even they saw the Devil in the details last night and are now spooked out of their minds and asking me questions about, "The Last Days" in Revelations.  TGIFF!


----------



## Lion Eyes (Sep 2, 2022)

Biden's speech is perhaps the most divisive speech by a president ever...
Biden's use of the Marine Corp for his speech is probably against military code....
Biden's decision to wave $600,000,000,000 in student loans is probably illegal...
Biden's proclamation that the southern boarder is closed is an out & out lie...


----------



## watfly (Sep 2, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Biden's speech is perhaps the most divisive speech by a president ever...
> Biden's use of the Marine Corp for his speech is probably against military code....
> Biden's decision to wave $600,000,000,000 in student loans is probably illegal...
> Biden's proclamation that the southern boarder is closed is an out & out lie...


He Is in full Democrat election mode.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Sep 2, 2022)




----------



## crush (Sep 29, 2022)




----------



## crush (Sep 29, 2022)

"Jackie, are you here?  Where is Jackie?"  FJB


----------



## crush (Sep 29, 2022)

*Last 4 weeks. Based on NIH data, 154 Americans die from fentanyl daily.*
*
That’s the equivalent of 38 mass shootings.

In the last 28 days, 4,312 Americans died from fentanyl poisoning.
*
*That’s the equivalent of 1,078 mass shootings.*


----------



## crush (Sep 29, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 5, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 6, 2022)




----------



## espola (Oct 6, 2022)

From Andy Borowitz --


----------



## crush (Oct 7, 2022)

espola said:


> From Andy Borowitz --
> 
> View attachment 14818


It's just you and me again, just like 4 years ago when not much was happening at the fabulous forum. I hope all is well with you and your family. Everything you have hoped for has gone the opposite way the last 5 years. I know you that and just pointing the obvious. I think what is happening is that all people from all the admins who took bribes after being bought, will have to go to GITMO bro. The hold up is on those who have been blackmailed or worse, sold their soul. This is a massive sting operation and it goes to all sides, left, right and everything in-between. Say hi to Dad and Husker for me.


----------



## crush (Oct 7, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 12, 2022)

Military K-9 pooch keeping an eye on Joe inda White House


----------



## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

*Saudis say Biden wanted to delay oil production cut until after election, risking higher gas prices*
*Joe Biden: “If Republicans Win, Inflation Is Going to Get Worse. It’s That Simple”*

*Joe Biden said today’s disastrous inflation report shows progress.*

*“Today’s inflation report shows progress. Overall, inflation was 2% over the last three months… That’s progress but a lot of it has resulted from getting the cost of living at the gas pump down over $1 nationally,” said Biden.*


----------



## Lion Eyes (Oct 13, 2022)

espola said:


> From Andy Borowitz --
> 
> View attachment 14818


Lock up all the scoff laws...including Hunter.


----------



## crush (Oct 14, 2022)

*In the last month, Joe Biden asked to speak with a dead woman, claimed he was raised by Puerto Ricans, had to be escorted off the stage, wandered-off during a hurricane briefing, and claimed his son Beau "lost his life in Iraq."*

*This is a national emergency.*


----------



## crush (Oct 16, 2022)

Welcome to the Gr8t OC Joe. Age's 12-30 is Joe's girls. No serious guys until after 30. This Joe is exposing the real Joe to all of us. 









						Biden blasted for telling young girl 'no serious guys until you're 30': 'Creepy Joe is at it again'
					

President Joe Biden received pushback from conservatives on social media after telling a young teen not to date any serious guys until she's 30 years old.




					www.foxnews.com
				




*Biden blasted for telling young girl 'no serious guys until you're 30': 'Creepy Joe is at it again'*


----------



## crush (Oct 16, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 16, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 17, 2022)

Great, now FJB has pissed off the Saudi Prince and he is threating the West with Jihad. It's not looking good frens. I hope some you pray.



*"Anybody that challenges the existence of this country and this kingdom. All of us, we are products of jihad, and martyrdom," Saudi Prince Saud al-Shaalan, who is married to one of the grandaughter's of the late King  Abdulaziz Al Saud, said in a video that was posted to Twitter Saturday. "That's my message to anybody that thinks that it can threaten us."  *


----------



## crush (Oct 19, 2022)

FJB said California has always been paying $7 for gas and stop complain, big babies.
Nancy just said no one has done a better job as President in two years then FJB. 









						Oblivious Pelosi: Biden’s Had A Better 2 Years Than Most Presidents
					

Biden has "had a better two years than most presidents that you can name."




					rumble.com


----------



## Multi Sport (Oct 20, 2022)

40% approval rating.  Yea Joe, you did that.


----------



## crush (Oct 20, 2022)

Baaaaaaahhhhaaaaaaabaaaabaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









						VP Harris Laughs Maniacally About Electric School Buses
					

Another day of VP Harris awkwardly attempting to be normal




					rumble.com


----------



## crush (Oct 21, 2022)




----------



## crush (Oct 23, 2022)

I know some other(s) on here that would vote for Liz for President. Oh where oh where did you go bro? Playing 5 avatars at once must be hard to do. Cheater!!!

*Biden: ‘I admire the hell’ out of Liz Cheney*
*'She means what she says,' Biden says of Cheney*


----------



## crush (Oct 23, 2022)

FJB is sure talking about hell today. 

“Vice President Harris, how is she doing? You’re almost two years in, how is she doing?” the MSNBC reporter asked Biden.

*“She’s doing great! First of all, she’s smart as hell.* *She has a backbone like a ramrod and she has enormous integrity,” Biden said.

“There isn’t any public figure that is, you know, 60% favorable ratings, I mean, you know, most of, and, but — she’s doing a great job,” he said.*


----------



## crush (Oct 27, 2022)

If you are a Biden, you can collect $30 million from the Chinese government, work with the "spy chief of China", broker a $9 billion oil & gas deal for Vladimir Putin, and the FBI will label your laptop "Russian disinformation" to conceal your family's crimes.

If you are a Trump, the FBI will fabricate a Russian-collusion hoax to frame you, alter evidence in federal court to spy on you, and when none of that works — the FBI will raid your home.

Do all of you still hate Trump? Seriously, the hate you had for that man is all here for all to read. Their is a sick, perverted and evil reason they did all this to our country.


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## crush (Oct 27, 2022)

Ye just wants all black babies to be born Sir. Roe v Wade was sent back to the States to decide how many weeks is too many weeks to kill babies. I felt Joy, Peace & Belief. Joe lied about gas being $5 when he took office. He was telling the truth about the greatest fraud ever in election but now just lies when he talks.


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## tenacious (Nov 18, 2022)

Well to all my democrat friends on here... things went so well for Dems this past week during the midterm. I guess that means America likes the Biden and Kamala's agenda and is ready for four more years?


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Well to all my democrat friends on here... things went so well for Dems this past week during the midterm. I guess that means America likes the Biden and Kamala's agenda and is ready for four more years?


Oh yes, the Dems have the message that so many love. You can kill your kid in the womb up to birth. People are eating this up. Back to normal. yay!!!!


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

*Americans will be shocked! Pay to play, plays and pays out on both sides...*


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

Barack Obama awarded *Pearson Publishing $350 million to create the Common Core curriculum.*

After leaving office a subsidiary of *Pearson Publishing gave Obama a $65 million dollar book deal.*

If this sounds familiar that’s because this is exactly what just happened with #FTX. Our elected officials have been stealing money from us and laundering it back to themselves our whole lives. Welcome to America, home of the brave. Like I said, this is not a Left vs Right debate. I lost everything and so will you. That is the only way to WTF up. I love you all and be safe folks.


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

Catch them and then release them, unless of course, they try and attack Paul!

*Driver in wrong-way Whittier crash released hours after arrest for allegedly slamming into sheriff's recruits*
*Accused California wrong-way driver released hours after being charged with 'attempted murder of peace officer(s)*


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

*The Big Guys always get 10% of the action. Lot's of action going on for the Big Guys who pay to play the best. I feel like I have lived in a Casino all my life and I keep losing because the "house" is rigged with cheats and liars. *


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## crush (Nov 18, 2022)

I guess most of you want 4 more years of Pay to Play. I will admit many of you played pay to play well and you got rich of these scams. Enjoy the money and the sleepless nights all alone with your gold.


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## crush (Nov 19, 2022)




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## crush (Nov 20, 2022)

This meme was created from CaliChristine73 over at TS.


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## crush (Nov 26, 2022)




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## crush (Nov 27, 2022)




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## fourteenknots (Dec 2, 2022)

*I’m beside myself. *

*That scum Biden today met with the great grand nephew of a Nazi sympathizer !!! Only the worst elements of the Democrats would go so low to seek favor like that. I hear the guy also has great aunts that married Nazis too  .

Our true President would never put himself into so disgusting a position to associate with nazis   .*

*Wake up People    !!*


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## crush (Dec 2, 2022)

ELON is dropping MOABs today 5pm est at about Hunter Lap Top from hell.


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## crush (Dec 2, 2022)

Elon is taking Q & A for any of you who are on Twitter. I don;t do Twitter.


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## crush (Dec 2, 2022)




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## crush (Dec 2, 2022)

Let's see if this holds water. Buckle up gents, it's going to be a wild freaking roller coaster. Yes, I did take meds today. Go kids!!!


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## crush (Dec 2, 2022)

This lady Liz is bad ass as well. She's going to be hunting the vampires that live and hide among us. This is gnarly stuff you guys. It was never about the election or the Rona. It was always about saving the kids. I know most of you when the Truth is shoved in your faces, you will see the Truth and will rally behind all the kids who have been trapped in SRA. Go Liz!


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## crush (Dec 3, 2022)

4 Year Delta from Q


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## thirteenknots (Dec 3, 2022)




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## thirteenknots (Dec 5, 2022)




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## fourteenknots (Dec 5, 2022)




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## thirteenknots (Dec 6, 2022)

fourteenknots said:


> .I.


Ever since your first " appearance " on a SoCalSoccer site about a decade ago, you have
obsessed over male anatomy.

Let's guess, you're 5'3" and drive a " Big " truck.

Grow up.


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## crush (Dec 9, 2022)

President Biden made a trade. Every American athlete overseas is now in danger of getting arrested for prisoner exchange. Marines? They get to stay in prison & do hard labor. Crazy times we live in. Plus Twitter blacklisted anyone who spoke up and had a conservative thought or idea or just wanted the truth. My familiy knows what it's like to be blacklisted. I hope all of you enjoy pay to play while you have it. I'm broken hearted but not surprised.


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## crush (Dec 9, 2022)

"Never leave a Marine behind." Elon


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## espola (Dec 9, 2022)




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## crush (Dec 9, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 15157


Private citizen are now off limits? Your side is something else dude.  Christians must bake a cake as fast as they can for LBGT+ but the same group does not want Grub Up or Door Dash delivering to Christians? Talk about double standard.  I know Espola the avatar has me on ignore but maybe one of the other avatars you play with can answer this Q for me. If the lap top from hell involves child trafficking, does that change your thoughts on WHO should be investigated or is this only about $$$ for you?


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## crush (Dec 9, 2022)

*Liberal media, Dems erupt over Sinema leaving Democratic Party: 'Still great at being the f---ing worst'*
*Keith Olbermann demands Sinema resign after she says she'll become an independent*


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## thirteenknots (Dec 9, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 15157



NOTHING Jared Kushner did was illegal.

Now go on and eat your oatmeal.


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## thirteenknots (Dec 9, 2022)

crush said:


> *Liberal media, Dems erupt over Sinema leaving Democratic Party: 'Still great at being the f---ing worst'*
> *Keith Olbermann demands Sinema resign after she says she'll become an independent*


Wait til Manchin goes Independent.

Then Schumer will " Threaten ". again as he did before.


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## crush (Dec 9, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> Wait til Manchin goes Independent.
> 
> Then Schumer will " Threaten ". again as he did before.


Its 50/50 now...lol.


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## thirteenknots (Dec 9, 2022)

crush said:


> Its 50/50 now...lol.


No.... it's not.

*49 Republican
48 Democrat
3 Independent

If two abstain and one caucuses with Dems, Heels Up is the Tie Breaker.
If two abstain and one caucuses with Republicans, Schumer will threaten.
If one abstains and two caucus with Republicans, Schumer will encourage shootings.
If all three caucus with Republicans, then Romney and Murkowski show their Lizard skins.*


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## pewpew (Dec 9, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 15157


I want to know who's on the list that has G. Maxwell in prison. Since there's no list..then why is she in prison?


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## crush (Dec 10, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> No.... it's not.
> 
> *49 Republican
> 48 Democrat
> ...


I said, "lol" for a reason...lol


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## Lion Eyes (Dec 10, 2022)

| PolitiFact
					

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.




					www.politifact.com


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## thirteenknots (Dec 10, 2022)

crush said:


> I said, "lol" for a reason...lol


Just be more specific.
No offense implied.


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## Multi Sport (Dec 10, 2022)

espola said:


> View attachment 15157


Difference is the media and you left leaning morons kept saying that Hunter Bidens laptop was fake news. I have no problem investigating both and let the chips fall where they may..but you and your like minded cronies would never agree.


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## tenacious (Dec 10, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> Difference is the media and you left leaning morons kept saying that Hunter Bidens laptop was fake news. I have no problem investigating both and let the chips fall where they may..but you and your like minded cronies would never agree.


I agree with you here. Sort of like Trump and Russiagate, with time it's become pretty clear this Hunter Biden story in and of itself has no legs... and the man's political enemies talking about spending years and millions of tax payer dollars investigating feels frankly offensive to my delicate sensibilities.

However, right before an election (before we all knew it was a nothingburger), for dem establishment and the nations new media to work hand in hand to bury this story, as a means to try help their political allies win an election is a scandal. Like wtf is going on with the American education system that in a few short years we have turned out so many unethical journalists?


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## espola (Dec 10, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I agree with you here. Sort of like Trump and Russiagate, with time it's become pretty clear this Hunter Biden story in and of itself has no legs... and the man's political enemies talking about spending years and millions of tax payer dollars investigating feels frankly offensive to my delicate sensibilities.
> 
> However, right before an election (before we all knew it was a nothingburger), for dem establishment and the nations new media to work hand in hand to bury this story, as a means to try help their political allies win an election is a scandal. Like wtf is going on with the American education system that in a few short years we have turned out so many unethical journalists?


So you agree there is nothing there, but you criticize journalists for working with that assumption?


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## tenacious (Dec 11, 2022)

espola said:


> So you agree there is nothing there, but you criticize journalists for working with that assumption?


If by "assumption" you mean... democratic minded journalist working with the democratic party to actively prevent the public from hearing breaking news stories due to their political loyalties... then yes that's exactly what I'm criticizing journalist for.


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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

The news media must have realized readers are starting to realize they have a trust issue... and there is a defense of the New Media's handling of the laptop story in here that is well thought out. The opinion is def def coming at you from a pro journalist bent- but at least it clearly lays out what is known, unknown, along with the known-unknows.   









						Hunter Biden's laptop and 'Twitter files'—what we do know, what we don't
					

A trove of emails uncovered from Twitter HQ showed communications between the social media giant and U.S. politicians in 2020. Newsweek Fact Check delves in.




					www.newsweek.com


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## espola (Dec 13, 2022)

tenacious said:


> The news media must have realized readers are starting to realize they have a trust issue... and there is a defense of the New Media's handling of the laptop story in here that is well thought out. The opinion is def def coming at you from a pro journalist bent- but at least it clearly lays out what is known, unknown, along with the known-unknows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


<<
Another article by _Mediaite _also claimed that sources close to _Fox News_ had told it that the Murdoch-owned broadcaster had passed on the story too, citing "the lack of authentication of Hunter Biden's alleged laptop, combined with established concerns about Giuliani as a reliable source and his desire for unvetted publication." 
>>

What is missing from the stories I have seen is any thorough analysis of the actual contents of the laptop.


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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

espola said:


> <<
> Another article by _Mediaite _also claimed that sources close to _Fox News_ had told it that the Murdoch-owned broadcaster had passed on the story too, citing "the lack of authentication of Hunter Biden's alleged laptop, combined with established concerns about Giuliani as a reliable source and his desire for unvetted publication."
> >>
> 
> What is missing from the stories I have seen is any thorough analysis of the actual contents of the laptop.


Right? That's always the thing with bad journalism... it's usually what you're not being told.

The story from the NYpost (as I remember it) is that Hunter Biden dropped his laptop off for repair and never coming to pick it up... causing the repair shop owner to start looking going through the contents of the computer looking for the owner. Where he discovers a bunch of emails that Hunter openly discussing influence peddling, and says some really incriminating things about his father the vice president of the united states is on board.

From here the repair shop guy gets concerned and leaks the emails to the news... which the news media apparently blocks because (and this is per the comments you quoted above) Rudy Giuliani was too unreliable. Not sure how only Rudy Giuliani is the only one who could verify these emails but there you go.

My two cents is as has been the case since the beginning of time, the media simply report on 'October Political Surprises' and leaves the thinking to us little people. I think people know enough about Rudy Giuliani to handle the knows, and then decide for themselves?


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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Right? That's always the thing with bad journalism... it's usually what you're not being told.
> 
> The story from the NYpost (as I remember it) is that Hunter Biden dropped his laptop off for repair and never coming to pick it up... causing the repair shop owner to start looking going through the contents of the computer looking for the owner. Where he discovers a bunch of emails that Hunter openly discussing influence peddling, and says some really incriminating things about his father the vice president of the united states is on board.
> 
> ...


Sorry...  I should not have said the new media 'blocked'.  Rather they 'chose not to cover' much...


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## espola (Dec 13, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Right? That's always the thing with bad journalism... it's usually what you're not being told.
> 
> The story from the NYpost (as I remember it) is that Hunter Biden dropped his laptop off for repair and never coming to pick it up... causing the repair shop owner to start looking going through the contents of the computer looking for the owner. Where he discovers a bunch of emails that Hunter openly discussing influence peddling, and says some really incriminating things about his father the vice president of the united states is on board.
> 
> ...


From what I have seen of Hunter's emails, they are reminiscent of the schoolyard "My dad can beat up your dad" taunts.


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## crush (Dec 13, 2022)

18 US Code 115- Look it up Espola, tenacious and Husker Du. Where is Husker?


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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

espola said:


> From what I have seen of Hunter's emails, they are reminiscent of the schoolyard "My dad can beat up your dad" taunts.


This is from the Newsweek article I posted:
The _Post_ published what it claimed were emails showing that an adviser to Ukrainian energy firm Burisma, Vadym Pozharskyi, emailed Hunter in May 2014 asking Hunter for "advice on how you could use your influence" to aid the company. At the time, Burisma's president was under investigation by Ukraine's then-prosecutor general Viktor Shokin.

Although the 2014 email is not specifically referenced in its investigation, _t_wo computer security experts, asked to verify the contents of the laptop for _The Washington Post, _confirmed the veracity of "a batch of messages from Vadym Pozharskyi" in a portable hard drive said to have originated from Hunter Biden's laptop.

On April 17, 2015, Pozharskyi emailed Hunter to thank him for connecting him with his father, then-Vice President Joe Biden.

"Dear Hunter, thank you for inviting me to DC and giving an opportunity to meet your father and spent [sic] some time together. It's realty [sic] an honor and pleasure," the email read.

About eight months after the email, during Joe Biden's December 2015 trip to Kyiv, the then-vice president pressured Ukraine's president and prime minister to fire Viktor Shokin.

During a 2018 interview with the Council on Foreign Affairs, Joe Biden recalled telling Ukrainian leadership that the U.S. would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees until Shokin was removed.

"I said, I'm telling you, you're not getting the billion dollars. I said, you're not getting the billion," he said.

"I'm going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."


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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

crush said:


> 18 US Code 115- Look it up Espola, tenacious and Husker Du. Where is Husker?


If I bring him out now that you said that, everyone is going to know he's one of my many many alternative screen names.


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## espola (Dec 13, 2022)

tenacious said:


> This is from the Newsweek article I posted:
> The _Post_ published what it claimed were emails showing that an adviser to Ukrainian energy firm Burisma, Vadym Pozharskyi, emailed Hunter in May 2014 asking Hunter for "advice on how you could use your influence" to aid the company. At the time, Burisma's president was under investigation by Ukraine's then-prosecutor general Viktor Shokin.
> 
> Although the 2014 email is not specifically referenced in its investigation, _t_wo computer security experts, asked to verify the contents of the laptop for _The Washington Post, _confirmed the veracity of "a batch of messages from Vadym Pozharskyi" in a portable hard drive said to have originated from Hunter Biden's laptop.
> ...


Was there anyone opposed to Shokin being fired?


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## thirteenknots (Dec 13, 2022)

*Argue all around the problem....but NEVER do any of you face it !

*


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## crush (Dec 13, 2022)




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## tenacious (Dec 13, 2022)

espola said:


> Was there anyone opposed to Shokin being fired?


I think a better question is why Hunter got an email like that and didn't immediately respond leave me the fck alone? My dad hasn't been in the highest level of public office my entire life... but even I can read between the lines on that one.  For the news media and tech elites to decide the public might not support Biden if they learned his kid (at the very least) selling influence... crosses a line for me.

But to go back to your question, was the guy who was investigating (Shokin) the guy who was (Pozharskyi) was trying to gain influence from Hunter- a bad guy?  I'm not really sure... but that kind of goes back to my point of the facts of this story having been buried.


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## crush (Dec 13, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I think a better question is why Hunter got an email like that and didn't immediately respond leave me the fck alone? My dad hasn't been in the highest level of public office my entire life... but even I can read between the lines on that one.  For the news media and tech elites to decide the public might not support Biden if they learned his kid is selling influence... crosses a line for me.
> 
> But to go back to your question, was the guy who was investigating (Shokin) the guy who was (Pozharskyi) was trying to gain influence from Hunter- a bad guy?  I'm not really sure... but that kind of goes back to my point of this story having been buried.


This whole thing smells like poo poo tenacious. Sell outs sold us all out. I swear I do not care what party you worship. I just want the truth to be told. I think Hunter was told, "drop off that lap top from hell at Big Macs place and you will live out the rest of your life at GITMO on the beach." That's my guess but I could be wrong.


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## Lion Eyes (Dec 13, 2022)

espola said:


> From what I have seen of Hunter's emails, they are reminiscent of the schoolyard "My dad can beat up your dad" taunts.


Please post examples of the schoolyard you speak of...


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## thirteenknots (Dec 13, 2022)

crush said:


> This whole thing smells like poo poo tenacious. Sell outs sold us all out. I swear I do not care what party you worship. I just want the truth to be told. I think Hunter was told, "drop off that lap top from hell at Big Macs place and you will live out the rest of your life at GITMO on the beach." That's my guess but I could be wrong.



You're over the target, that's for sure.

The Democrats spawned the KKK, and they didn't pick a
donkey/jackass as their mascot on a whim....vile creatures 
they are.
Pedo Biden is everything wrong with Politicians, Democrats
and Republicans.
Joe needs to go along with his whole " Klan ".


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## thirteenknots (Dec 13, 2022)

espola said:


> From what I have seen of Hunter's emails, they are reminiscent of the schoolyard "My dad can beat up your dad" taunts.



The Dad beat him up in a school yard ?

That " Hunter " Laptop is a cry for help, as
was his sisters diary. 
Classic signs of children who were " Touched "
by family members.
And... who marries their Babysitter....?

Seek help Espola.


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## tenacious (Dec 14, 2022)

Lord knows I'm not a Trumper, but for some context... Pulitzer Prizes in journalism were awarded for the Russiagate coverage.  









						Trump sues Pulitzer Prize board for defamation for awarding WaPo and NYT’s ‘Russiagate’ coverage
					

Former President Donald Trump has filed a defamation lawsuit against the Pulitzer Prize board for jointly awarding the New York Times and Washington Post the 2018 National Reporting prize over thei…




					nypost.com


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## tenacious (Dec 14, 2022)

crush said:


> This whole thing smells like poo poo tenacious. Sell outs sold us all out. I swear I do not care what party you worship. I just want the truth to be told. I think Hunter was told, "drop off that lap top from hell at Big Macs place and you will live out the rest of your life at GITMO on the beach." That's my guess but I could be wrong.


I agree it stinks... but sort of like Russiagate, my understanding is there is no evidence any influence was actually bought. It's a big nothingburger story.


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## Multi Sport (Dec 14, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I agree with you here. Sort of like Trump and Russiagate, with time it's become pretty clear this Hunter Biden story in and of itself has no legs... and the man's political enemies talking about spending years and millions of tax payer dollars investigating feels frankly offensive to my delicate sensibilities.
> 
> However, right before an election (before we all knew it was a nothingburger), for dem establishment and the nations new media to work hand in hand to bury this story, as a means to try help their political allies win an election is a scandal. Like wtf is going on with the American education system that in a few short years we have turned out so many unethical journalists?


You throw enough money at people and ethics no longer exist..


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## Lion Eyes (Dec 14, 2022)

According to Joe Biden and his administration the southern border is closed & secure.
What kind of pinhead believes such nonsense?
1.7 million illegal crossings in 2021
Over 2 million in 2022.
300 fentanyl deaths a day. Can you say Narcan?


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## crush (Dec 24, 2022)




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## crush (Dec 24, 2022)

"There is a certain stillness at the center of the Christmas story: *a silent night when all the world goes quiet*. And all the clamor, everything that divides us, fades away in the stillness of a winter’s evening. I wish you that peace this Christmas Eve."


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## Multi Sport (Dec 27, 2022)

Hard to believe that JBs approval rating is 39%... I mean, how moronic do you have to be to approve what this guy is doing.


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## Multi Sport (Yesterday at 3:39 PM)

So JB declassified documents back when he was VP and has had them since. 

Problem is a VP doesn't have the power to do that. 

So will DoJ go after him? Will they raid his residence? 

Careful what you whish for...


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## espola (Yesterday at 3:47 PM)

Multi Sport said:


> So JB declassified documents back when he was VP and has had them since.
> 
> Problem is a VP doesn't have the power to do that.
> 
> ...


Raid his residence?  Do you suppose they will find any classified documents in the White House basement janitor closet?


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## Multi Sport (Yesterday at 6:02 PM)

espola said:


> Raid his residence?  Do you suppose they will find any classified documents in the White House basement janitor closet?


Of all the people I knew you would bite because you can't help being an idiot..

Here's your sign.
Two years into his presidency it is safe to say that Joe Biden has made a comfortable home in The White House. Despite this, the current President of the United States and the First Lady have an arsenal of property elsewhere, many of which are still used for quiet weekends away from the spotlight.


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## espola (Yesterday at 6:11 PM)

Multi Sport said:


> Of all the people I knew you would bite because you can't help being an idiot..
> 
> Here's your sign.
> Two years into his presidency it is safe to say that Joe Biden has made a comfortable home in The White House. Despite this, the current President of the United States and the First Lady have an arsenal of property elsewhere, many of which are still used for quiet weekends away from the spotlight.


Do you know what a SCIF is?


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## Multi Sport (Yesterday at 6:58 PM)

espola said:


> Do you know what a SCIF is?


Doesn't matter.. he was the VP when he declassified the documents. You do know what a VP is?


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## Multi Sport (Yesterday at 6:59 PM)

espola said:


> Do you know what a SCIF is?


But please... continue to share your ignorance.


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## espola (Yesterday at 8:34 PM)

Multi Sport said:


> Doesn't matter.. he was the VP when he declassified the documents. You do know what a VP is?


Did he claim he declassified the documents?


----------

