# guest players and playtime



## sbay (Jan 17, 2017)

Interesting thread on another spot I thought I'd post and see where it goes.  Guests being invited to play with your team and current rostered players are put on the bench.  My kid was a guest for a big tourney last year and there were parents that welcomed us and parents that were clearly pissed.  

Thoughts on how guests impact your team?


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## Daniel Miller (Jan 17, 2017)

Just charge your guests the same tournament fees as you charge your parents.  Then the guests have the same moral right to playing time as the kids already rostered.  If you don't charge the guests, then parents with benched kids have every right to complain, because they are subsidizing a stranger.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 17, 2017)

sbay said:


> Interesting thread on another spot I thought I'd post and see where it goes.  Guests being invited to play with your team and current rostered players are put on the bench.  My kid was a guest for a big tourney last year and there were parents that welcomed us and parents that were clearly pissed.
> 
> Thoughts on how guests impact your team?


I never had a problem with it.  In league games winning matters for postseason and thus the best players that can help a team win should play.  Showcases are different.  I never felt that there was any enmity when my player was a guest.  Probably because we wouldn't guest play unless a team actually needed a few extra bodies for a long weekend.


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## chargerfan (Jan 17, 2017)

Guest players are great when you are short players, especially on hot weekends. I don't think guests should get more time than a rostered players though. I have seen top players guest for flight 2 teams in an effort to win and that does nothing but show the coach's lack of faith in his team.


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## softwaretest (Jan 18, 2017)

I'll speak to the younger ages since my DD is only U11. 

If Guests are brought in to help "win" then your probably on the wrong team. Stop worrying about winning and start asking why your coach can't develop the players he/she selected for the team. Honestly there are very few good coaches and as I've seen this year the coach makes all the difference.

Obviously guests are fine if the coach wants to evaluate how a player fits into things, but too often that's not the purpose.


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## bababooey (Jan 18, 2017)

I am okay with guest players for the proper reasons. If a team is down players due to injury, people out of town, etc. or if your GK is not available and you don't really have a backup GK on the roster. I also like the idea of asking a player from a younger age group or lower level team to guest play. Sometimes these players need to be challenged. Ideally, the guest players should not start a game or play more than the rostered players.


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## Overlap (Jan 18, 2017)

sbay said:


> Interesting thread on another spot I thought I'd post and see where it goes.  Guests being invited to play with your team and current rostered players are put on the bench.  My kid was a guest for a big tourney last year and there were parents that welcomed us and parents that were clearly pissed.
> 
> Thoughts on how guests impact your team?


been there, my older daughter and 2 team mates guested for 1 of our older teams within the club. They had several injuries and were on the verge of relegation during the season, (they had to win the last 2 of 3 games to avoid it), the 3 younger's guest played in 2 games, the team won both. A few parents were ticked, the complainers didn't make the team the following season, the team went on to have tremendous success their last season with several new player's and those 3 made life long friends. While it was a bit uncomfortable and the shouting match on the sideline was embarrassing, the reality was, they couldn't get it done without help. I didn't expect the backlash from the 1-2 crazy parents but, it was a good experience other than that...


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## softwaretest (Jan 18, 2017)

Overlap said:


> they couldn't get it done without help.


lol why was it so important that they "get it done"?  Perhaps they should have taken the team down to the level that they were playing at so the existing girls could develop.  Winning doesn't necessarily equal progress or development.  We played a team this year that brought in three guest players for a fairly meaningless league game while most of the girls on the team could hardly even dribble the ball.  That team while they squeaked out a win isn't even playing state cup and I guess will be able to maintain the same level for next year while needing a completely new team to do so.


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## jrcaesar (Jan 18, 2017)

Overlap said:


> those 3 made life long friends


*Really? *


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## SocalSoccerMom (Jan 18, 2017)

Guesting has been fun for my kids.  They get to play with their friends on other teams and clubs, at higher/lower level than where normally today, while making new friends and getting to know different coaches.  It should be a positive experience for both the guests and the players on the team.  we had an instance where the players on the team we guested with asked to be subbed out so my kid could go in because the competition was higher than what they were used to.  I'm sure the parents might not have agreed with their kids, but at the end of the day, the kids were happy.  I know some coaches want a minimum number of players at tournament. If it goes below that number, depending on the opponents, he will bring in stronger players from higher teams, or take on key players from the lower. Either way, roster kids should start in their positions over guests, but I wouldn't want a forward who's not comfortable in defense to go in instead of a guest defender.


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## chargerfan (Jan 18, 2017)

stronger players from higher teams are normally just there as ringers. If a coach needs to bring on better players to be competitive in a game, your team is playing at the wrong level. If you are down to 12-13, bring on a girl from a lower team who is fighting for a chance to move up.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 18, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> stronger players from higher teams are normally just there as ringers. If a coach needs to bring on better players to be competitive in a game, your team is playing at the wrong level. If you are down to 12-13, bring on a girl from a lower team who is fighting for a chance to move up.


I don't agree.  My daughter guest played numerous times.  If a player is asked to guest play and is a stronger player then they should play.  Why else would a strong player waste their weekend helping a team out if it is just to sit?  A kid that has somebody take their position just learned a lesson about working hard.  Sports in America is one of the true meritocracies.  If you are a baller you play.  If somebody is better than you then you have work to do.  If the need is there play the players.

I also can't think of a time that I ever heard a coach ask for a weaker player to help their team.


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## SocalSoccerMom (Jan 18, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> stronger players from higher teams are normally just there as ringers. If a coach needs to bring on better players to be competitive in a game, your team is playing at the wrong level. If you are down to 12-13, bring on a girl from a lower team who is fighting for a chance to move up.


you don't get to choose who you play in a tournament. there are teams that should be playing on higher brackets end up in yours.  if you are playing flight 2 against a flight 1 team, how's a flight 3 player going to help?


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## chargerfan (Jan 18, 2017)

Im talking about what appears to be a stronger player from the top team helping out a B or C team in order to win a game. I think a coach should play the level his team is at, and not rely on ringers to help win a game they wouldn't win otherwise. Maybe bring in a player from the top team who diesnt get much playtime on their own team.


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## chargerfan (Jan 18, 2017)

I didn't say bring in a flight 3 girl, unless she is strong enough to play flight 2. But why are flight 2 teams bringing in strong flight 1 players to help them beat a team they would never be able to beat otherwise?


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 18, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I didn't say bring in a flight 3 girl, unless she is strong enough to play flight 2. But why are flight 2 teams bringing in strong flight 1 players to help them beat a team they would never be able to beat otherwise?


With all due respect, are we talking about winning again or are we talking about development?


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## chargerfan (Jan 18, 2017)

100% development. I'm saying don't bring in ringers just to win. Develop players by letting a kid play forward instead of defense if your forward is missing. Or develop a stronger lower team player with her sights on moving up by letting her guest.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Jan 18, 2017)

I am biased as my daughter guest played like crazy this year.  She is also a keeper and there seems to be a shortage of '05 keepers.  Did she help teams win tournaments this year, yes both in her age group and playing with '04s.  But in every case the team either didn't have a FT keeper or their keeper wasn't available to play for all or part of the tournament.  We didn't pay, but we offered to - the decision was up to the team manager.  Was she a ringer?  For Coronado Cup with her age bracket I can see that argument.  For Manchester City with the 2004's the answer would be no; she simply filled in for her old coach for the games their FT keeper wasn't available.  In all of her guest playing one parent seemed to be bothered by her guest playing since they had PT keepers; I think she got over it when they won the finals game 1-0.   My $0.02


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## soloyosh (Jan 19, 2017)

My boy has guest played for two teams that traveled from Canada and Florida to play in Vegas.  Usually went on as a second half sub or when the scoring was lopsided already.  He likes it because he usually gets a jersey or training shirt for helping out.  Since I am his club coach, I enjoy just watching him play.  Since I am not a perfect coach, it gives me an opportunity to get feedback from other coaches on what he may need to work on.  Win-win.  It's supposed to be fun.


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## mirage (Jan 19, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> 100% development. I'm saying don't bring in ringers just to win. Develop players by letting a kid play forward instead of defense if your forward is missing. Or develop a stronger lower team player with her sights on moving up by letting her guest.


Two problems with this statement.

1) OP states that this was for tournament games.  The purpose of tournaments are to win, is it not?  While it may help with development to play against strong opponents in a need to win situation (yes, learning to win is a part of development.  After all, why are they playing a game, if ultimately winning is not the objective).

2) If all coach does is to bring up less competitive players for the sake of development, it is completely unfair to the team hosting the player.  They don't need anyone to drag down the team performance in tournament games.  For practices, friendlies and even SCDSL league games, sure, its a good thing to do for the player that needs more development.  But also recognize that its at the expense of better players on the higher level team.

My older kid used to play for one of the largest clubs in OC.   He probably guested for almost every teams in that club, his age and up a year or two, during the five years he was with that club in various games - tournaments, league, friendlies.  Most of the coaches knew him and would ask for him from time-to-time.

When he guested, almost always he started and played more than the players on the team that hosted him.  I suspect their parents didn't like it but they did like winning the games as he made a difference.  Usually, he was asked to comeback by the parents and coaches.  Its hard to find a forward that can finish consistently, be technical in tight spaces and not turn the ball over, and defends, which over the years has set him a part from just athletic forwards.

My point is that it depends on the situation and how effective the guest is.  It also requires the guest player to be sensitive to the situation and make the other players on the team look good and not be selfish in games.

There always will be the bottom half of the team's parents that get miffed at guest players that play more than their kid.  Its the nature of competitive sports, not just soccer.


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## MWN (Jan 19, 2017)

Guests players are necessary in a variety of instances and parents that complain may have valid reasons.  <-- How's that for a non-committal statement. 

Now, if "winning" wasn't important, we would not keep score (or have standings).  The benefits of bringing "up" players to "fill the ranks" at a tournament are unquestionable.  Tournaments have multiple games per day and having subs available is both smart from a competitive standpoint and safety standpoint.  Play the kids that give the team the best chance of winning the tournament, but substitute generously.  Having an upper flight player come down to help the lower division also has merit, especially if the upper flight player is a bench player.  The lower level players get to experience the next level players and see first hand the type of play that will get them moved up.

In my mind, the only time bringing in guest players would not be appropriate is when a team has plenty of quality players rostered and the guests are from an upper level playing to simply win a meaningless game.

If the issue is development ... 91.3456% of the development time (give or take .020525 percent) occurs in practice.  Games simply allow the player to demonstrate their development during a competition with kids that have different colored backpacks.  Sure, they are going to learn a few things, but the real development occurs in practice.

Final note, there is also a business justification from a club perspective.  Sending down bench players to play on the lower flight team gives the parents and the player an opportunity to experience what life might be like not playing on the upper flight team.  When it comes to next season or a mid-season relegation, those parents/player has seen that its not so bad and even kinda cool to get more playing time.  Maybe the player sticks with the club, instead of looking to play at that other club across town.


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## chargerfan (Jan 19, 2017)

Yeah, it's fun to win a tournament, but how much of a win is it if you have a couple ringers winning it for you? Is it worth reducing a rostered kids playtime? 

you have a problem with a kid guesting who is considered not up to the level, but no problem with a kid guesting who is lightyears ahead in talent? 

I have seen many b and c teams this year bring on ecnl or ecnl level guests just to help win. I don't see how that benefits anyone, except the parents who get to brag about the win on Facebook.


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## socalkdg (Jan 19, 2017)

My daughter guest plays for the AYSO Extra teams as we are still involved with AYSO and the Extra program, but only as a field player since she has been playing keeper all year.  They are usually short a kid or two, plus they all get 3/4 of the game playing time.  Its a nice break for her, gets her running, refines her ball control skills, and keeps her options open for the future if she ends up changing her mind about playing keeper in the future(she is 11 and a girl, so anything is possible) .  

She gets to play the whole game, and fits in well as she is usually the best passer on any team she plays with.  Other parents don't seem to mind, and I make sure to thank all the parents for letting us play with them.  In every case though they are short on girls and she isn't replacing one of them in an effort to get a win.  I also think it helps their development as well as she is involving them in the game.


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Yeah, it's fun to win a tournament, but how much of a win is it if you have a couple ringers winning it for you? Is it worth reducing a rostered kids playtime?
> 
> you have a problem with a kid guesting who is considered not up to the level, but no problem with a kid guesting who is lightyears ahead in talent?
> 
> I have seen many b and c teams this year bring on ecnl or ecnl level guests just to help win. I don't see how that benefits anyone, except the parents who get to brag about the win on Facebook.


Do parents really post stuff on Facebook about winning soccer tournaments?


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## MakeAPlay (Jan 19, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> My daughter guest plays for the AYSO Extra teams as we are still involved with AYSO and the Extra program, but only as a field player since she has been playing keeper all year.  They are usually short a kid or two, plus they all get 3/4 of the game playing time.  Its a nice break for her, gets her running, refines her ball control skills, and keeps her options open for the future if she ends up changing her mind about playing keeper in the future(she is 11 and a girl, so anything is possible) .
> 
> She gets to play the whole game, and fits in well as she is usually the best passer on any team she plays with.  Other parents don't seem to mind, and I make sure to thank all the parents for letting us play with them.  In every case though they are short on girls and she isn't replacing one of them in an effort to get a win.  I also think it helps their development as well as she is involving them in the game.


Great point.  A player should play everything at 11.  Versatility is a very key attribute for a player to have.


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## SocalSoccerMom (Jan 19, 2017)

I see it as the players can learn from better guest players when we borrow "ringers". Ringers can learn how to play with less skilled players on the team. It's a learning opportunity for both.  Ringers can make a difference. But I would not say ringers win games even if they are the only ones scoring.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jan 19, 2017)

sbay said:


> Interesting thread on another spot I thought I'd post and see where it goes.  Guests being invited to play with your team and current rostered players are put on the bench.  My kid was a guest for a big tourney last year and there were parents that welcomed us and parents that were clearly pissed.
> 
> Thoughts on how guests impact your team?


My daughter played up a year for a 3 day tourney within our own club, there was 3 younger guests including my girl and 1 of the dads of a rostered player got pissed and pulled his player at halftime of game 2, big scene.


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## Overlap (Jan 23, 2017)

softwaretest said:


> lol why was it so important that they "get it done"?  Perhaps they should have taken the team down to the level that they were playing at so the existing girls could develop.  Winning doesn't necessarily equal progress or development.  We played a team this year that brought in three guest players for a fairly meaningless league game while most of the girls on the team could hardly even dribble the ball.  That team while they squeaked out a win isn't even playing state cup and I guess will be able to maintain the same level for next year while needing a completely new team to do so.


it was important to play at the level that would get college interest the following year, playing down would not have gotten the interest from college coaches, 5 of the players on that team went on to play at the college level and may not have had the opportunity if they were at the lower level. This was 3 season's ago. Winning meant they stayed at the higher level, allowing the 5 to continue to get interest from the college's they now play for.


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## Overlap (Jan 23, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> *Really? *


yes, really, they still stay in touch 3 years later...


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## Wez (Jan 24, 2017)

Assuming the Coach is respectful of his roster players field time, my experience with guest playing has been very positive.  Parents of top teams appreciate work ethic and good teamwork from a guest player.

If the guest is a selfish hotshot or the team is already having internal problems with play time, that's where I see parents getting mad.


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## soloyosh (Mar 10, 2017)

Situation:  Local club maintains "pool players" that are essentially a practice squad that does not go to competitions.  For a recent tournament, one of the rostered players on the team (U10) was not able to attend.  The team rosters 12 players for U10 (7v7).  For this tournament they brought a pool player onto the roster in place of the absent player.  Said pool player ended up playing more than many regular rostered players causing much consternation.  Pool player is a good (humble) kid that works hard in practice (maybe harder than any other player) and has surpassed many of those regular players from a technical standpoint.  Pool players pay half the monthly fee as the regular players.

Question:  From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Mar 10, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> Situation:  Local club maintains "pool players" that are essentially a practice squad that does not go to competitions.  For a recent tournament, one of the rostered players on the team (U10) was not able to attend.  The team rosters 12 players for U10 (7v7).  For this tournament they brought a pool player onto the roster in place of the absent player.  Said pool player ended up playing more than many regular rostered players causing much consternation.  Pool player is a good (humble) kid that works hard in practice (maybe harder than any other player) and has surpassed many of those regular players from a technical standpoint.  Pool players pay half the monthly fee as the regular players.
> 
> Question:  From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


What was the understanding going with this club (why have pool vs non-pool players)?
Why did the club feel the need to add a player for a 7v7 tournament when the team had 11 available? Seems like plenty of subs already.
My daughter guest played last year, a lot, but she is a FT goalie and didn't take field time away from any kid already on the roster.  It is a delicate situation at best.  I don't know how I feel about it until I know more about the whole pool vs non-pool players.


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## Striker17 (Mar 10, 2017)

Pool players at u10. I would say yikes.
The economic side of me though thinks it's a creative way to fill the vacation and summer gaps while still fielding a strong team.
As far as the parents reaction unfortunately that will become a greater issue as they age and now that the model is changing even more there will be a significant difference between an A team player and the rest. 
Moving forward those players in DA 2004 and above won't be able to guest as we have for many years. 
As far as the youngers though again interesting approach to getting a full roster


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## Striker17 (Mar 10, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Do parents really post stuff on Facebook about winning soccer tournaments?


All day everyday. Usually followed with #blessed


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## AFC (Mar 10, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> Situation:  Local club maintains "pool players" that are essentially a practice squad that does not go to competitions.  For a recent tournament, one of the rostered players on the team (U10) was not able to attend.  The team rosters 12 players for U10 (7v7).  For this tournament they brought a pool player onto the roster in place of the absent player.  Said pool player ended up playing more than many regular rostered players causing much consternation.  Pool player is a good (humble) kid that works hard in practice (maybe harder than any other player) and has surpassed many of those regular players from a technical standpoint.  Pool players pay half the monthly fee as the regular players.
> 
> Question:  From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


It's becoming more common as kids who are not good enough to be on a team yet, but want to be coached by particular coach. It's a win-win for the club, coach and player. It exists at many clubs at all ages and levels. In DA they have DP players (development players), in clubs they have "pool" and "training" players. Kids get better at training, so it's not unusual they can become better than any rostered player. The only problem with this scenario is whether kids and their parents can live with less games.


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## coachrefparent (Mar 10, 2017)

Striker17 said:


> All day everyday. Usually followed with #blessed


I love it when people think their god helped the other team lose / blessed them with a win.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 10, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> Question: From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


Similar to the question in the original post, my feelings are that anytime you have non-rostered players come in and play with a team, it can of course be a delicate situation.  Parent and player egos need to be considered and expectations managed.  If the coach is a good communicator and everyone knows the purpose and goal for bringing in the other players, then there will be less conflict.  It doesn't matter if the coach is bringing in higher caliber players with the only intent for winning a game or if the coach is recruiting for next season, or if the coach is simply filling holes.  As long as the guests and the regulars know what is going on, it shouldn't be an issue.  My player has been in all of those situations above and never seen a problem.  I don't fully understand the "pool" player program at your club, but it sounds like the coach is preparing to add the pool player to the regular squad, perhaps at the cost of one of the regulars.  That's how sports works and it's just one of those things that the coaches and parents need to navigate with class and respect.   The problems only come up when there are hidden agendas, gossip, and lack of transparency.


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## soloyosh (Mar 10, 2017)

Mystery Train said:


> I don't fully understand the "pool" player program at your club, but it sounds like the coach is preparing to add the pool player to the regular squad, perhaps at the cost of one of the regulars.


It used to be a "one-club town."  Now there is competition.  Mostly, I think they're just trying to tie up all the players as a starvation tactic.


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## Mystery Train (Mar 10, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> It used to be a "one-club town."  Now there is competition.  Mostly, I think they're just trying to tie up all the players as a starvation tactic.


Ahhh...it's funny the games clubs play to get an edge!


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## mirage (Mar 11, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> ...........Said pool player ended up playing more than many regular rostered players causing much consternation.  Pool player........works hard in practice (maybe harder than any other player) and has surpassed many of those regular players from a technical standpoint.  Pool players pay half the monthly fee as the regular players.
> 
> Question:  From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


I think you've answered your own question. 

If a player works harder than others, and more technical does it surprise you that the kid played more than others?  Just think about it from the coach's perspective....

As for paying half the fee, such is life.  There are many kids on regular teams that pay significantly less or nothing (scholarship cases).  Just the way club soccer works.

Playing time is earned by players performance and abilities, not by time on the team or payment (whole another subject about buying your way on or not making obligated payments).  If the guest player is good or better than the regulars on the team, most coaches will play the better player, regardless.

Over time, said consternations will go away - either players move on or parents accepting it...


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## Multi Sport (Mar 11, 2017)

My DD guested on a number of teams, even a team that she was cut from. 

Each case is different and you should know ahead of time if your current coach is OK with it because some coaches are not.

I would expect a fair amount of playing time otherwise they wouldn't have asked your kid to guest.

Make some new friends along the way. It's over before you know it so enjoy it all.


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## jrcaesar (Mar 12, 2017)

soloyosh said:


> Situation:  Local club maintains "pool players" that are essentially a practice squad that does not go to competitions. ... Question:  From the outside, what are your feelings on this?


Two conflicting thoughts here: 

1.  No doubt the parents of the existing team know why the "pool" exists, so this situation should not be a surprise to them. Good for the hard-working kid to get the opportunity! (And props to the club for following through!)

2.  Why would a parent sign up their 9 year-old for a club pool? There are so many other clubs and options out there that would enable their child to play and learn how to interact with teammates. At 9 years old, kids should play – doesn't matter the level.


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## jrcaesar (Mar 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> If the issue is development ... 91.3456% of the development time (give or take .020525 percent) occurs in practice. Games simply allow the player to demonstrate their development during a competition with kids that have different colored backpacks. Sure, they are going to learn a few things, but the real development occurs in practice.


If development means learning technical skills, kids can do that anywhere. 

I think the reasons you sign up a 9 year old for soccer instead of, let's say, baseball are only learned in games:
1.  Experience in making quick decisions under pressure. 
2. Learning how to work with teammates, some who are stronger, some who are weaker.
3.  Understanding your ability to be a leader or to follow other peer leadership. 
4. Adjusting your approach based on real life results.
5.  Interacting with different groups of peers over the course of multiple seasons. 

Those are the reasons my children play sports, and why youth sports is important to child development.


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## sandshark (Mar 13, 2017)

I think the only time a guest player should be involved is when your team is missing players. I don't think a guest player should start and play over the less skilled team members..EVER. This is a team sport and they win as a team and they learn to lose as a team! The less skilled players are putting in their time and paying their dues so they are ready when they get the chance to step in and play, that is when it is time to see what they can do they all earn that option ..right?  Remember this is about the children, YES even the less skilled children are as important to the team and this is about their personal development as much as anyone on the "TEAM"! 

 I remember a couple years ago a coach named Ernie Romero (Albion SC ) decided to actually cheat and bring down a keeper to "guest" on the B team in National Cup. This coach was smirking as he did this as if no one would catch him bringing in his "ringer" but he did get caught and the team was docked all games that the "ringer" played with that team. He of course pulled your typical BS and claimed he had no idea of the rules even after 20 plus years of being a coach! I was told by his team parents that its easier to ask forgiveness then permission LOL well that did not work out to well.

Guest players are nothing more then exactly that.. a guest! They should be treated with respect and made to feel like a member of the team but never at the expense of a real team member! Again this is about the young athletes development before anything else. What message is this teaching the children when coaches cheat or bring in the "ringers" as guest?


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