# Let the Principals & Teachers Decide



## oh canada (Jul 23, 2020)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/unleash-creative-school-staff-on-our-worst-school-year-ever/2020/07/17/53a44734-c6a7-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200723&instance_id=20544&nl=the-morning&regi_id=69316076&segment_id=34125&te=1&user_id=213b6a7bba70839c917645a1d2cd6ae1
		


From the Wash Post:

Let’s agree for the sake of argument that the next school year is going to be terrible. The federal government and the states are at odds over when to put kids back in classrooms. Planning by superintendents and school boards is both messy and tardy. Whatever is decided will probably crumble in the next coronavirus surge.

It will be a disaster. What should we do?
Here is a suggestion only the bravest and smartest school board members will ever consider: Let principals and teachers decide. They know their students better than anyone except parents, who would just as soon get back to work. If school staff are allowed to try their best ideas, some might click. The results can’t be any worse than what will happen anyway.

Tell each principal and teacher how many students they are going to have and let them sort it out. They must have the courage to put forth their ideas. Clever superintendents and principals should urge teachers to speak up. The only limits should be common sense, the resources at hand and the law. Parents would have to be consulted, but they will be happy for any help given the load that was dumped on them in March with no warning.

A few weeks ago I asked readers for ideas. Many of those who replied were teachers. Much of what they said was compelling and worth trying.
Why not create student pairs for reading and discussion? Even without the latest gadgets they could link up from their homes using my favorite ancient technology, the telephone. They could read to each other. They could discuss the questions teachers sent them while enjoying the contact with each other so many have missed.

How about assigning every student an hour of reading each evening with a parent or older sibling? That is what many families do anyway. Why not make it a requirement? It would be free of the stress that comes with regular homework, trying to figure out answers.
Some readers told me sources of learning in communities are being overlooked: museums, parks, recreation centers, local businesses and colleges. In this emergency, such enterprises could join with educators to put together something different that might engage students online.

If some classes are scheduled at school, why not try more art and music? There is no way in these circumstances we’re going to make much progress in reading, writing and arithmetic. Why not do something fun and cut down on no-shows?

The best students can be asked to work with those who need help. Children might suggest their own projects. They could walk around their block and write about what they found most interesting. They could bake cookies based on the official recipe, and then try different proportions and report the results.
The best charter schools have made good use of their freedom from old school district rules and biases. Why shouldn’t teachers and principals at regular public schools have a chance to do that, at least during this crisis?

I have praised the Uncommon charter schools in New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts for their close attention to classroom practices in these difficult times. They have found that prerecorded videos are often the best way to teach online. Phone calls to homes, they say, reveal the best ways to encourage participation by students who aren’t logging in.

Why can’t regular school staff do that? They know their students as well as teachers in charter schools know theirs. Some of the most successful charter school leaders got their best ideas when they were still working in regular schools, being told they could not do what they wanted to do. The vast majority of our teachers still work in regular schools. Why can’t they use unconventional but sensible methods, such as visiting families at home to help them get ready for school? Union leaders should reconsider telling creative teachers to do less, as revealed by my colleague Laura Meckler in her big story about a San Francisco school.

I sound like I am giving up on the new school year before it starts. I am. We have to admit this will be the worst school year ever. No one knows exactly what will happen, but it will not be good. What we face is an extreme combination of hurricanes, tornadoes, major earthquakes and the day my drill sergeant ordered us to set up our barracks outside.

We have to get through it. We must look forward to the day we put it behind us. With a free hand, the professionals who will eventually have to clean up this mess might be able to experiment with fresh ideas we all can learn from.


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## Desert Hound (Jul 23, 2020)

oh canada said:


> If some classes are scheduled at school, why not try more art and music? There is no way in these circumstances we’re going to make much progress in reading, writing and arithmetic. Why not do something fun and cut down on no-shows?


The above is the mindset. Failure. 


oh canada said:


> Union leaders should reconsider telling creative teachers to do less, as revealed by my colleague Laura Meckler in her big story about a San Francisco school.


The unions are not on the side of kids and families.


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## JumboJack (Jul 23, 2020)

In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 23, 2020)

oh canada said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/unleash-creative-school-staff-on-our-worst-school-year-ever/2020/07/17/53a44734-c6a7-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200723&instance_id=20544&nl=the-morning&regi_id=69316076&segment_id=34125&te=1&user_id=213b6a7bba70839c917645a1d2cd6ae1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My “regular” school does all of this. We have some basic guidelines from our district, but they don’t impede any of your suggestions.


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## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

The parent in me agrees with many of your points.  However, I don’t think the proposal is reasonable because of the law of Negligence.

The schools have a “duty to protect all foreseeable plaintiffs in the zone of danger.”  If something goes wrong and a plaintiff’s attorney can make plausible arguments that the harm was foreseeable the schools would have big problems.


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## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

JumboJack said:


> In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


I think this may be a way to avoid a Negligence claim against the district if something goes wrong.


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

JumboJack said:


> In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


It only goes to show it was never about slowing the spread, it was never about protecting the kids, it's all about the teachers that think they are more entitled than the McDonald's worker, the air con guy or plumber or has to go into your home, or the meat packing plant worker or grocery worker.


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## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> It only goes to show it was never about slowing the spread, it was never about protecting the kids, it's all about the teachers that think they are more entitled than the McDonald's worker, the air con guy or plumber or has to go into your home, or the meat packing plant worker or grocery worker.


What’s your Negligence analysis?


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> What’s your Negligence analysis?


Negligence would be a greater concern if a) parents weren't given a choice (and were forced to send the kids in) but with disclaimers this can be mitigated and b) by adhering to the govt guidelines (hence why Trump and the CDC clashed on the guidelines).  Negligence claims for illness has also been very very tough historically....remember the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to establish the case and that includes causation (that you caught it from school and were otherwise locked up tightly and couldn't have caught it from any other place).  Otherwise, remember, kids die during flu season....many of them have caught it at schools....lawsuits for this generally haven't gone anywhere.....the little case law out there surrounds intentionally or recklessly giving someone a disease like VD or Aids.  

It's a concern but not the deciding one.  It comes down to the teachers.  The didn't want to put themselves at risk.


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## Desert Hound (Jul 23, 2020)

JumboJack said:


> In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


There is no logical consistency. 

The only thing logically consistent is this. The unions and teachers do not want to be in class. These community centers with kids and adults...the adults won't be teachers. So for the union and teachers that is a win win. For the kids a substandard eduation. 

And for the rest of us? We wonder if someone can propose this as a solution...why not just be in a classroom as you said above? How is one safe? But the other (actual classrooms) a safety concern?

Madness.


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## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

JumboJack said:


> In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


Exactly, our youth services clubhouses will be the new schools.  We have actual classrooms where these kids will be doing their online learning while being tutored by our staff that had zero problem coming back to work.

Since when did teachers become a special protected class?  I find it ironic that they consider themselves essential when its contract time but when the rubber hits the road, now they're not essential.  Now I know a lot of teachers don't feel that way but their unions clearly do.

We should provide all the protections necessary for teachers and if for some reason the $70 billion proposed by the President isn't sufficient then do what it takes to increase the amount, but not without accountability of where the funds are spent.


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## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

San Diego parents rush to form 'learning pods', micro-schools
					

News of continued school closures lead parents to seek solutions like pods, tutoring




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				




Kudos to parents for taking their power back.


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## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

I hope parents see the corrupt abuse of power the unions have right now and show it with their votes.  Public schools and unions have a place, but not when it abuses its power to the point the students suffer.  I hope the silver lining of this situation is more charter schools, school vouchers, and homeschooling.  Let the public schools and unions compete for students.  The ones with the best results win.


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

toucan said:


> *Concerning Teachers*:  Teachers have a right to be concerned.  A teacher in a middle school or high school may be in the same room as 100 different kids during the day.  As of July 22, California had 413,500 confirmed Covid-19 cases, just a shade over 1% of California's population.  The death rate in California for confirmed cases is 7,870, which is just a hair below 2%.  California has about 300,000 teachers in K-12 public schools.  There are more in private schools.  Let's say that just 2% of teachers get the virus, and 2% die.  That translates to somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 sick teachers, and 120 - 240 deaths.  Why should teachers have to take this risk when the general public does not?
> 
> *Concerning Public Health*:  But the biggest danger is not to teachers.  Kids with the corona-virus will more likely spread it to each other than to teachers.  Those kids will go home, and some will spread it to their families.  People say that we should open school "for the kids," because they seem to do better with the virus than adults.  But that does not help Grandma or Grandpa.  We have public safety laws to protect the public.  We close schools partly to protect kids, but also to protect the larger public.


The protect the larger public argument though goes out the window if you allow the kids to go to day care like New York and Los Angeles are doing.  Then you are just doing it for the teachers.


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## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The protect the larger public argument though goes out the window if you allow the kids to go to day care like New York and Los Angeles are doing.  Then you are just doing it for the teachers.


Or limiting liability.  No need for parents to sign school waivers if they accept the risk themselves and open day cares.


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## Justafan (Jul 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> Exactly, our youth services clubhouses will be the new schools.  We have actual classrooms where these kids will be doing their online learning while being tutored by our staff that had zero problem coming back to work.
> 
> Since when did teachers become a special protected class?  I find it ironic that they consider themselves essential when its contract time but when the rubber hits the road, now they're not essential.  Now I know a lot of teachers don't feel that way but their unions clearly do.
> 
> We should provide all the protections necessary for teachers and if for some reason the $70 billion proposed by the President isn't sufficient then do what it takes to increase the amount, but not without accountability of where the funds are spent.


All of you deserve the misery you're in.  You all crap on teacher's and not one of you, except Watfly, mentioned anything about protections for teachers.  

Now let's see which one of you has any balls and will agree with me that we should get teachers:  1) everyday testing for staff & kids; 2) masks; 3) sanitizing equipment, such as sanitizing fans Arizona is going to use.  

This is all it takes folks, no too difficult in my opinion.


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## Justafan (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> I hope parents see the corrupt abuse of power the unions have right now and show it with their votes.  Public schools and unions have a place, but not when it abuses its power to the point the students suffer.  I hope the silver lining of this situation is more charter schools, school vouchers, and homeschooling.  Let the public schools and unions compete for students.  The ones with the best results win.


You're on, as long as it's apples to apples, let's do it.  We'll test the kids baseline first day of class then test them last day of class.  Teachers who improve kids' performance the most win.  Top public school teachers will CRUSH the privates and charters!


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## oh canada (Jul 23, 2020)

toucan said:


> *Concerning Teachers*:  Teachers have a right to be concerned.  A teacher in a middle school or high school may be in the same room as 100 different kids during the day.  As of July 22, California had 413,500 confirmed Covid-19 cases, just a shade over 1% of California's population.  The death rate in California for confirmed cases is 7,870, which is just a hair below 2%.  California has about 300,000 teachers in K-12 public schools.  There are more in private schools.  Let's say that just 2% of teachers get the virus, and 2% die.  That translates to somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 sick teachers, and 120 - 240 deaths.  Why should teachers have to take this risk when the general public does not?


there are many different methods and strategies to set up a middle or high school non-traditionally.  yes, if you think back to your h.s. classroom, you're right, they might see 100 different kids throughout the day.  But, teacher and admin faculties were proposing strategies like keeping kids in the same rooms all day, dividing schools into smaller groups (or pods), having half the school come in on Mon/Weds and the other half Tues/Thurs, keeping teachers in the front of the classroom with tape on the floor to keep all students (masked) at least 10ft away, etc. etc.  Union just doesn't even want to try nor give the private/charter schools the chance to try.  And Newsom gave them cover.  Shameful.


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## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

oh canada said:


> there are many different methods and strategies to set up a middle or high school non-traditionally.  yes, if you think back to your h.s. classroom, you're right, they might see 100 different kids throughout the day.  But, teacher and admin faculties were proposing strategies like keeping kids in the same rooms all day, dividing schools into smaller groups (or pods), having half the school come in on Mon/Weds and the other half Tues/Thurs, keeping teachers in the front of the classroom with tape on the floor to keep all students (masked) at least 10ft away, etc. etc.  Union just doesn't even want to try nor give the private/charter schools the chance to try.  And Newsom gave them cover.  Shameful.


You seem a tad bit biased.  Do you work for a charter school?


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## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

Justafan said:


> All of you deserve the misery you're in.  You all crap on teacher's and not one of you, except Watfly, mentioned anything about protections for teachers.
> 
> Now let's see which one of you has any balls and will agree with me that we should get teachers:  1) everyday testing for staff & kids; 2) masks; 3) sanitizing equipment, such as sanitizing fans Arizona is going to use.
> 
> This is all it takes folks, no too difficult in my opinion.


I agree with your protections but believe 1) is overkill and impractical.  Although, if you were shoving a stick up kids nose everyday that would solve the issue of needing to have schools open! The CDC testing recommendation for schools is as follows:

Testing individuals with signs or symptoms consistent with COVID-19
Testing asymptomatic individuals with recent known or suspected exposure to SARS-CoV-2 to control transmission
The tests do need to be made readily available and of the rapid result type.

I don't think we're crapping on teachers, we're more so crapping on the power of the teachers' unions.  Teachers should be given the same common sense protections that other essential workers that have been physically at work (in some cases during the entire pandemic) and make special accommodations for teachers with vulnerable conditions.   Our main complaint is that kids are getting crapped on in direct conflict to a solid consensus of science that says the risks of not going back to school are greater than the Covid risks for kids.


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## Soccerfan2 (Jul 23, 2020)

Justafan said:


> You're on, as long as it's apples to apples, let's do it.  We'll test the kids baseline first day of class then test them last day of class.  Teachers who improve kids' performance the most win.  Top public school teachers will CRUSH the privates and charters!


They don’t know what they don’t know.


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## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

Justafan said:


> You're on, as long as it's apples to apples, let's do it.  We'll test the kids baseline first day of class then test them last day of class.  Teachers who improve kids' performance the most win.  Top public school teachers will CRUSH the privates and charters!


Thats great, I welcome top public schools to continue to get great results, lets close the failing ones now since it takes an act of God to fire a bad teacher unless they touch a student.


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## Justafan (Jul 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> I agree with your protections but believe 1) is overkill and impractical.  Although, if you were shoving a stick up kids nose everyday that would solve the issue of needing to have schools open! The CDC testing recommendation for schools is as follows:
> 
> Testing individuals with signs or symptoms consistent with COVID-19
> Testing asymptomatic individuals with recent known or suspected exposure to SARS-CoV-2 to control transmission
> ...


And yes, I'm talking about the less invasive rapid result Abbot test.  I don't think that test is overkill and it just comes down to a matter of cost (and production of course).  But let's assume we need to produce another 100,000 of those machines, if we get on it today 7/23, maybe we can have a majority of them within 30 days, soon enough to save the school year.

And yes, our kids are the losers.  And yes, kids appear safe for the most part and don't appear to spread it as easily.  Again, I would send my kids to school today, 5 days a week.  I'm not worried about my kids.  And although my wife and I are higher risk because of age, I'd be willing to take on the risk to myself for their sake.

My twin dd's are 16.  In the last 2 weeks, two very close friends of theirs have had mental breakdowns.  I get a call form my buddy at 1:00 a.m. a week and half ago telling me his dd (also 16 and one of dd's best friends) locked herself in the bathroom, crying uncontrollably for about an hour, didn't want to talk to anybody, but was willing to talk to my dd.  Took both my dd's over his house and they stayed with her until I picked them up at 5:00 a.m.  The other situation was similar but less severe.

And when it comes to my own dd's, shoot, they wake up at 12:30 - 1:00 p.m., they make their way downstairs to get something to eat, start binge     watching something on Netflix till dinner time at 7:00 ish, we're lucky if they feel like talking about ANYTHING during dinner, they hangout downstairs till about 9:30 watching something or Tik Tok'ing, then they go up to their rooms and Tik Tok till 5 or 6 a.m.  That's a typical day.  This is so unhealthy it's not even funny.

They did workout on their own for about the first month of the lockdown, but nothing since.  The motivation is simply not there, at least with my dd's.  From what I've seen, it's a little bit different with boys.  But with girls my dd's age, base, on talking to other parents, I think this is more the norm than not.  So, I absolutely want my dd's physically back in school


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## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

oh canada said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/unleash-creative-school-staff-on-our-worst-school-year-ever/2020/07/17/53a44734-c6a7-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200723&instance_id=20544&nl=the-morning&regi_id=69316076&segment_id=34125&te=1&user_id=213b6a7bba70839c917645a1d2cd6ae1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are principals and teachers scientists?Epidemiologists? No? OK, I guess that’s settled.


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## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Thats great, I welcome top public schools to continue to get great results, lets close the failing ones now since it takes an act of God to fire a bad teacher unless they touch a student.


Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.


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## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.


No genius, send them charter schools, homeschool, or give vouchers.  Have you been paying attention?


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## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The protect the larger public argument though goes out the window if you allow the kids to go to day care like New York and Los Angeles are doing.  Then you are just doing it for the teachers.


B.S. This is not an all-or-nothing in which no one is helped if anyone is allowed to congregate. Online school will absolutely, positively save many lives. Students. Teachers. Family.

Hard choices must be made. Making all kids and teachers go back to the classroom just because daycares are allowed to stay open is open is some really, really bad logic. Actually, it’s not logic at all.
Even if daycares stay open, online school will save many lives.

Oh, and how dare a union save the f**king lives of its members, right?  Upton Sinclair just ruined things for everyone.  What a d**k that guy was.


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## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.


You dont have to take my word for it, just listen to cory booker, even Barack Obama expanded charter schools. You should really watch this documentary 






Its mainly the racist white democrats that want to keep POC in failing schools. Close the bad schools. Charter schools help. Keep both accountable to include teachers. Unions don't want that. They exist to help teachers, not the students.


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## Woobie06 (Jul 23, 2020)

JumboJack said:


> In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a _classroom setting with the help of adult aids_... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!


This is the problem...stupid, stupid everywhere...who comes up with these ideas?  Who are these morons...WE ALL elected them...maybe next time, let’s not vote on party lines, and vote for the most qualified, intelligent, and capable individuals, maybe people with real world experience...even if you don’t agree with everything they say stand for.   Vote for the best person to get the job done.  There is a difference and everyone knows it...we definitely need more AOC’s...


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## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> No genius, send them charter schools, homeschool, or give vouchers.  Have you been paying attention?


Sure. A poor family will just home school their kid. I mean, who needs an income? The voucher idea is also stupid. Sorry we closed your school. Here’s a check for a pittance.  I’m sure you’ll be fine. And closing public schools and reopening them by slapping the word “charter” onto the name also accomplishes nothing. The only thing that happens is that teachers get paid less, so you get worse teachers.

The charter school/public school game is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. If a group “betrays” the public school group and opens a charter school, it “wins” to the public school group’s detriment so long as the public school group doesn’t “betray” them back and also go the charter school route. If everyone goes the charter school route, however, they both end up doing worse than if no one had “betrayed” and they just stayed where they were. If everyone just opens a charter school, everyone loses overall. All you’ve done is rename all the public schools and pay teachers less, and you get what you pay for. 

Even legitimate charter schools are a sham in the that the only thing holding them together is the fact that many decent teachers will take less money and awful benefits for a while in exchange for the ease of working with kids who are already uniformly good students. But in addition to that being bad for society as a whole, it obviously won’t work for most because even the higher (but still woefully inadequate) pay that public school teachers get in areas where teaching isn’t easy would decrease in a charter system, resulting in even worse teachers who don’t have the benefit of easy teaching. The whole point of charter schools is to stick it to teachers.


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## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

Justafan said:


> And yes, I'm talking about the less invasive rapid result Abbot test.  I don't think that test is overkill and it just comes down to a matter of cost (and production of course).  But let's assume we need to produce another 100,000 of those machines, if we get on it today 7/23, maybe we can have a majority of them within 30 days, soon enough to save the school year.
> 
> And yes, our kids are the losers.  And yes, kids appear safe for the most part and don't appear to spread it as easily.  Again, I would send my kids to school today, 5 days a week.  I'm not worried about my kids.  And although my wife and I are higher risk because of age, I'd be willing to take on the risk to myself for their sake.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear about your friends' kids, that's heartbreaking.  I have 16 year old daughter as well, and she has certainly been more impacted than my 12 yo boy, but not too badly.  Girls typically need more social than my boys.  My boy would bang out what little homework he had, then go fishing. He thought he died and gone to heaven...but that's not a sustainable proposition.  He didn't touch a soccer ball the entire pandemic except for a couple zoom practices.  Its been a good break for him after going non-stop for 2 years of DA.

Now, we've allowed our kids to socialize with other kids, within reason, for a few months.   We've felt that our kids overall health is more important than the low risk of Covid.  The parents of the other kids feel the same way.  It's mostly been with the same defined group of kids.  I'm not aware of any kids that have been on full lockdown.  Hope driving is going well for your girls.  I was a glorious day when my daughter got her license.

Best of luck to you, and yours.


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## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> B.S. This is not an all-or-nothing in which no one is helped if anyone is allowed to congregate. Online school will absolutely, positively save many lives. Students. Teachers. Family.
> 
> Hard choices must be made. Making all kids and teachers go back to the classroom just because daycares are allowed to stay open is open is some really, really bad logic. Actually, it’s not logic at all.
> Even if daycares stay open, online school will save many lives.
> ...


Well, if you feel that way that it's just about reducing the amounts then private and charters should be given the waivers, if it's not all or nothing.

I think unions have been a great force for good and are necessary to even out employer bargaining power.  However, like FDR I've been skeptical of the public sector unions.  Recent events have convinced me it's not a good idea to have either the police or the teachers (or any other government employee) unionized.


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## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> You dont have to take my word for it, just listen to cory booker, even Barack Obama expanded charter schools. You should really watch this documentary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get that many people hoped charter schools would free up children in impoverished areas to attend schools in better areas. Unfortunately, they significantly underestimated those forces that prevent that from happening. In fact, Obama’s idea of how the charter system would work is so different from what Betsy DeVos’ that it’s almost a crime to use the same word. Affluent families found many ways to exploit charters against the poor, primarily minorities, many of which I have already discussed here, and the incompetent Ditzy DeVos has weaponized those methods.


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## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Sure. A poor family will just home school their kid. I mean, who needs an income? The voucher idea is also stupid. Sorry we closed your school. Here’s a check for a pittance.  I’m sure you’ll be fine. And closing public schools and reopening them by slapping the word “charter” onto the name also accomplishes nothing. The only thing that happens is that teachers get paid less, so you get worse teachers.
> 
> The charter school/public school game is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. If a group “betrays” the public school group and opens a charter school, it “wins” to the public school group’s detriment so long as the public school group doesn’t “betray” them back and also go the charter school route. If everyone goes the charter school route, however, they both end up doing worse than if no one had “betrayed” and they just stayed where they were. If everyone just opens a charter school, everyone loses overall. All you’ve done is rename all the public schools and pay teachers less, and you get what you pay for.
> 
> Even legitimate charter schools are a sham in the that the only thing holding them together is the fact that many decent teachers will take less money and awful benefits for a while in exchange for the ease of working with kids who are already uniformly good students. But in addition to that being bad for society as a whole, it obviously won’t work for most because even the higher (but still woefully inadequate) pay that public school teachers get in areas where teaching isn’t easy would decrease in a charter system, resulting in even worse teachers who don’t have the benefit of easy teaching. The whole point of charter schools is to stick it to teachers.


check out the video.  If you were a parent with a child in a failing school, wouldnt you want options?  many of these failing schools have been failing for decades which is why communities are asking for vouchers and charter schools.  They want options.  the customer, tax paying citizens with school aged kids want options.  throwing money at them, the democrat way, hasnt worked.  The money doesnt trickle down to the students.  I feel you are speaking from an ivory tower.  The hundreds of people on a waiting list to escape failing schools would disagree with you.  Its time to put yourself in these parents and students shoes instead of white racist democrats who get massive donations from teachers unions.  The good thing is even democrats are coming around, Cory booker being one.  This pandemic might be the catalyst to school choice as we now see middle and upper income parents getting on waiting lists for online charter schools since they are dissatisfied with zoom distance learning. lets see what happens.


----------



## timbuck (Jul 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> There is no logical consistency.
> 
> The only thing logically consistent is this. The unions and teachers do not want to be in class. These community centers with kids and adults...the adults won't be teachers. So for the union and teachers that is a win win. For the kids a substandard eduation.
> 
> ...


Are there any teachers / principals / aids / counselors / etc that don't feel safe from COVID in school but they are totally fine with sending their kid to an "undercover" soccer practice?


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Well, if you feel that way that it's just about reducing the amounts then private and charters should be given the waivers, if it's not all or nothing.
> 
> I think unions have been a great force for good and are necessary to even out employer bargaining power.  However, like FDR I've been skeptical of the public sector unions.  Recent events have convinced me it's not a good idea to have either the police or the teachers (or any other government employee) unionized.


No. All primary schools represent an inappropriately high transmission risk to too many people and - especially at the HS level - there is feasible alternative, online education. You can’t day care online. Day care is a necessary evil, so to speak. And day care transmissions will be mitigated by the steep decline in participation both due to the massive layoffs that have freed many parents up, as well as those who consider the risk to their baby to be too great.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> check out the video.  If you were a parent with a child in a failing school, wouldnt you want options?  many of these failing schools have been failing for decades which is why communities are asking for vouchers and charter schools.  They want options.  the customer, tax paying citizens with school aged kids want options.  throwing money at them, the democrat way, hasnt worked.  The money doesnt trickle down to the students.  I feel you are speaking from an ivory tower.  The hundreds of people on a waiting list to escape failing schools would disagree with you.  Its time to put yourself in these parents and students shoes instead of white racist democrats who get massive donations from teachers unions.  The good thing is even democrats are coming around, Cory booker being one.  This pandemic might be the catalyst to school choice as we now see middle and upper income parents getting on waiting lists for online charter schools since they are dissatisfied with zoom distance learning. lets see what happens.


There is nothing you said that I haven’t already explained why it is wrong. If you put all the pro-charter school people in one room, and those against in another, I know for certain which room would be called the Ivory Tower.


----------



## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

All just leave this right here.









						No known case of teacher catching coronavirus from pupils, says scientist
					

There has been no recorded case of a teacher catching the coronavirus from a pupil anywhere in the world, according to one of the government’s leading scientific advisers.Mark Woolhouse, a leading epidemiologist and member of the government’s Sage committee, told The Times that it may have been a mi




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> There is nothing you said that I haven’t already explained why it is wrong. If you put all the pro-charter school people in one room, and those against in another, I know for certain which room would be called the Ivory Tower.


How many kids or parents of kids do you know in charter schools? be honest.  Are they in ivory towers?


----------



## oh canada (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Are principals and teachers scientists?Epidemiologists? No? OK, I guess that’s settled.


Simple minded response, as usual.  There's no nuance to your insight, just like the governor's and teacher union's.  Either all schools are closed or all or open based on "our" statewide standards.  Let me help you...while teachers and principals likely don't hold M.D.s or infectious disease specialties, schools that are/were trying to come up with safe and thoughtful plans to reopen in-person were consulting school-formed committees, boards and school parents who do have that expertise AND live in the community AND have kids in the school district.  You think the state doctor who hasn't treated patients in 20 years and lives 500 miles away has a better grip on a school's capability of reopening vs. a pediatrician Mom who has two kids at the school?  Yeah, ok.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

[


oh canada said:


> Simple minded response, as usual.  There's no nuance to your insight, just like the governor's and teacher union's.  Either all schools are closed or all or open based on "our" statewide standards.  Let me help you...while teachers and principals likely don't hold M.D.s or infectious disease specialties, schools that are/were trying to come up with safe and thoughtful plans to reopen in-person were consulting school-formed committees, boards and school parents who do have that expertise AND live in the community AND have kids in the school district.  You think the state doctor who hasn't treated patients in 20 years and lives 500 miles away has a better grip on a school's capability of reopening vs. a pediatrician Mom who has two kids at the school?  Yeah, ok.


Too many schools are not coming up with safe or thoughtful plans. They are doing what parents want.  It is not possible to make a HS adequately safe. It isn’t. Online is the only way.  The state is not relying on a state dr who hasn’t treated patients in 20 years. It is relying a the overwhelming weight of the medical evidence and a lot more than one guy.  It is lunacy to let an in individual school principal making life and death decisions.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> check out the video.  If you were a parent with a child in a failing school, wouldnt you want options?  many of these failing schools have been failing for decades which is why communities are asking for vouchers and charter schools.  They want options.  the customer, tax paying citizens with school aged kids want options.  throwing money at them, the democrat way, hasnt worked.  The money doesnt trickle down to the students.  I feel you are speaking from an ivory tower.  The hundreds of people on a waiting list to escape failing schools would disagree with you.  Its time to put yourself in these parents and students shoes instead of white racist democrats who get massive donations from teachers unions.  The good thing is even democrats are coming around, Cory booker being one.  This pandemic might be the catalyst to school choice as we now see middle and upper income parents getting on waiting lists for online charter schools since they are dissatisfied with zoom distance learning. lets see what happens.


You seem very passionate about this topic. What’s your experience working in a classroom or school, again?


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> How many kids or parents of kids do you know in charter schools? be honest.  Are they in ivory towers?


I don’t talk about myself, but I will say that the answers to your questions do not help you.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

Soccerfan2 said:


> You seem very passionate about this topic. What’s your experience working in a classroom or school, again?


Watch the documentary on Amazon, its not about being left or right.  Cory Booker is in that documentary pushing for it as well.  I believe education is the best way out of poverty.  When you are stuck in a school where kids barely graduate, their chances of succeeding in life is slim.  Something needs to be done for these districts that most people in this forum would be scared to drive through.  throwing money at the problem hasn't worked, these districts have been failing for decades.  Charter schools work. Close the ones that dont work.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I don’t talk about myself, but I will say that the answers to your questions do not help you.


you can say what you want, but charter schools would not exist if parents were satisfied with the school they are zoned in.  period. parents arent forced to join charter schools. they have waiting lists with willing students and parents. They must be doing something right, or public schools are doing something wrong. probably both.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> you can say what you want, but charter schools would not exist if parents were satisfied with the school they are zoned in.  period. parents arent forced to join charter schools. they have waiting lists with willing students and parents. They must be doing something right, or public schools are doing something wrong. probably both.


Charter schools also wouldn’t exist if schools were integrated.  Why not focus on integration instead of charter schools?


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Charter schools also wouldn’t exist if schools were integrated.  Why not focus on integration instead of charter schools?


Why not both.  Thank Joe "you aint black" Biden for keeping POC in the district they live in.  Its hard to close a failing public school and fire bad teachers because of unions. Charter schools solve that problem.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Why not both.  Thank Joe "you aint black" Biden for keeping POC in the district they live in.  Its hard to close a failing public school and fire bad teachers because of unions. Charter schools solve that problem.


Integration is the solution.  Charter schools lead to more segregation.  Who you know is probably more important than what you know unfortunately.  So integration helps in building a network and the 3 R’s?
Cha


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Charter schools also wouldn’t exist if schools were integrated.  Why not focus on integration instead of charter schools?


Damn. Delivered the KO in nine words.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 23, 2020)

That's my boy, #5.  He would have been forced to go to Chaparral and be water boy.  Instead, TPS allowed him the opportunity to play football and get first team all league


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 23, 2020)

Segregation Dre?  Freedom of choice.  Temecula and Murrieta have great school districts.  They work together and let people make choices.  EOTL and Dre, you guys are way wrong on this.  Why can;t you work with those who want something more down their ally?  Why make this about race?


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jul 23, 2020)

[


MSK357 said:


> Watch the documentary on Amazon, its not about being left or right.  Cory Booker is in that documentary pushing for it as well.  I believe education is the best way out of poverty.  When you are stuck in a school where kids barely graduate, their chances of succeeding in life is slim.  Something needs to be done for these districts that most people in this forum would be scared to drive through.  throwing money at the problem hasn't worked, these districts have been failing for decades.  Charter schools work. Close the ones that dont work.


Well, it looks like you’ve got it all figured out! You have watched some TV about this.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I don’t talk about myself, but I will say that the answers to your questions do not help you.


----------



## Copa9 (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> It only goes to show it was never about slowing the spread, it was never about protecting the kids, it's all about the teachers that think they are more entitled than the McDonald's worker, the air con guy or plumber or has to go into your home, or the m's eat packing plant worker or grocery worker.


Really?  Just had a plumber today fixing my shower, one person in a mask, me in a mask, distancing, in and out 35 minutes max. I am $225.00 poorer, but hey that is the price of a shower that works. Not the same. McDonald's workers are not facing customers, no in restaurant eating in, window and curb side only. The meat packers now have plastic shields separating them from each other, except for the dead animal in front of them. You sound bitter about educators and have a different agenda.  No one is forcing your kids into public school. Pull them out and put them in a charter school, home school or private school if you have the big bucks. Best of luck to children.


----------



## Copa9 (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The protect the larger public argument though goes out the window if you allow the kids to go to day care like New York and Los Angeles are doing.  Then you are just doing it for the teachers.


They are trying to help the working parents with preschoolers.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Segregation Dre?  Freedom of choice.  Temecula and Murrieta have great school districts.  They work together and let people make choices.  EOTL and Dre, you guys are way wrong on this.  Why can;t you work with those who want something more down their ally?  Why make this about race?
> 
> View attachment 8256


It’s not just about race, I’m talking about class too.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> It’s not just about race, I’m talking about class too.


Bingo!!!!!  You get it.  This is always been about class bro.  Thank you.  Finally!!! Yes, we have some bigots and closet racist but for the most part, this place is awesome!


----------



## Copa9 (Jul 23, 2020)

oh canada said:


> there are many different methods and strategies to set up a middle or high school non-traditionally.  yes, if you think back to your h.s. classroom, you're right, they might see 100 different kids throughout the day.  But, teacher and admin faculties were proposing strategies like keeping kids in the same rooms all day, dividing schools into smaller groups (or pods), having half the school come in on Mon/Weds and the other half Tues/Thurs, keeping teachers in the front of the classroom with tape on the floor to keep all students (masked) at least 10ft away, etc. etc.  Union just doesn't even want to try nor give the private/charter schools the chance to try.  And Newsom gave them cover.  Shameful.


So my high school kid has to sit all day with kids who don't take Ap Euro, or Ap English or honors English or advanced calc or advanced jazz ensemble? That just wouldn't work. The charter schools can take as many kids as they want and so can the privates.  Oh and let's eliminate any testing for those schools to get in. After all if they are as good as they say they are, they should be able to teach all students, second language students, special needs students, those with behavior problems and students with learning disabilities. This whole situation is a nightmare because we have a government that failed the American people.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Really?  Just had a plumber today fixing my shower, one person in a mask, me in a mask, distancing, in and out 35 minutes max. I am $225.00 poorer, but hey that is the price of a shower that works. Not the same. McDonald's workers are not facing customers, no in restaurant eating in, window and curb side only. The meat packers now have plastic shields separating them from each other, except for the dead animal in front of them. You sound bitter about educators and have a different agenda.  No one is forcing your kids into public school. Pull them out and put them in a charter school, home school or private school if you have the big bucks. Best of luck to children.


You're not following too closely.  My kid is in private school  It was prepared to open with teachers that wanted to.  It had a safe plan, mostly outdoors, that one of the leads in the AAP report put together and some here described as a prison.  Newsom said no, so yes I'm bitter now about educators and if I had my way teacher's unions would be banned.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> They are trying to help the working parents with preschoolers.


That wouldn't even make sense if the preschooler got childcare but the kindergartner didn't.  But that's not what they are talking about.  They are talking about putting schoolaged kids in a room and having them do their remote learning there.  In a school room but without the teacher.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> It’s not just about race, I’m talking about class too.


Ok, Mac. You are king of the world. What do you do to solve the separation of classes in US schools? I was thinking about my daughter's first soccer team last week. I remembered how we had girls from pretty much every neighborhood in the city. At the time, I distinctly remember thinking, "Youth soccer is the great equalizer. It mixes everyone." However, that mixing slowly eroded. The team my daughter plays for is absolutely racially diverse. But in terms of class - not diverse at all.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> No. All primary schools represent an inappropriately high transmission risk to too many people and - especially at the HS level - there is feasible alternative, online education. You can’t day care online. Day care is a necessary evil, so to speak. And day care transmissions will be mitigated by the steep decline in participation both due to the massive layoffs that have freed many parents up, as well as those who consider the risk to their baby to be too great.


So the parents that are being forced to work as essential workers get placed in harms way (and have to pay for it too...not to mention the day care workers) but the teacher's because they are too precious get off scott free?  Nice!  If we are talking overall numbers, I'd rather they shut down the protests, shut down the restaurants, shutdown the aircon and plumbers and leave the schools open because 1) science says kids transmit it less, and 2) the kids are more important than any of those.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Ok, Mac. You are king of the world. What do you do to solve the separation of classes in US schools? I was thinking about my daughter's first soccer team last week. I remembered how we had girls from pretty much every neighborhood in the city. At the time, I distinctly remember thinking, "Youth soccer is the great equalizer. It mixes everyone." However, that mixing slowly eroded. The team my daughter plays for is absolutely racially diverse. But in terms of class - not diverse at all.


Unfortunately, I don’t know.  However, if I look at my limited personal experience I’d be open to bussing.  My family were migrant workers so I followed the crops and moved often as a child.  By far, the best schools that I attended were in S. Florida that had busing to integrate schools.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> So the parents that are being forced to work as essential workers get placed in harms way (and have to pay for it too...not to mention the day care workers) but the teacher's because they are too precious get off scott free?  Nice!  If we are talking overall numbers, I'd rather they shut down the protests, shut down the restaurants, shutdown the aircon and plumbers and leave the schools open because 1) science says kids transmit it less, and 2) the kids are more important than any of those.


Thanks  @Grace T. for figuring out this complicated subject with such certainty in such short time for us feeble minded folks.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Thanks  @Grace T. for figuring out this complicated subject with such certainty in such short time for us feeble minded folks.


It's in response to the assertion that even if all kids are removed from the classrooms,/gatherings, it's still better if a lot of them are.  There's no rational basis for that assertion, but if we are all going to be irrational, let's be irrational....I'd rather have the schools open than pretty much anything else besides medical services, the police and fire, and food.  It's an idiotic argument in response to an idiotic assertion to point out the flaws is said assertion.  But if we are there to the point where schools should be closed, well then we should be in relockdown until it's safe to open the schools.

But yes, I'd put my record up against Fauci's.  I can even pitch better than he can apparently.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> But yes, I'd put my record up against Fauci's.  I can even pitch better than he can apparently.


I will vouch for your prediction record, Grace, but the pitching? It is such a low bar.


----------



## espola (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> It's in response to the assertion that even if all kids are removed from the classrooms,/gatherings, it's still better if a lot of them are.  There's no rational basis for that assertion, but if we are all going to be irrational, let's be irrational....I'd rather have the schools open than pretty much anything else besides medical services, the police and fire, and food.  It's an idiotic argument in response to an idiotic assertion to point out the flaws is said assertion.  But if we are there to the point where schools should be closed, well then we should be in relockdown until it's safe to open the schools.
> 
> But yes, I'd put my record up against Fauci's.  I can even pitch better than he can apparently.


I find it hard to believe that you would put your judgment up against Fauci's unless you are defending a political stance.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I will vouch for your prediction record, Grace, but the pitching? It is such a low bar.


Wow, I just saw that.  I like the mask and the logo he had on but that throw, yikes!!!.  He's a cool expert and is not always right.  I looked back at all the videos of his and of others who down played the mask.  It's weird.  Nice guy he is.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

espola said:


> I find it hard to believe that you would put your judgment up against Fauci's unless you are defending a political stance.


1. He's been awful in all this.  Wrong several time and a history of telling half-truths.  In fairness, lot's of others have been horrible.
2. Yes, his expertise is far greater than mine but that's one of the problems we have and why we are in the mess we are in.  My record is simply better than his.  Whether I'd put my judgment up against his depends on what the question is.
3. On the subject of deferring to the experts, I've written this before.  I have a highly drug resistant bacterial infection right now.  The doctors gave me some really bad advice for treating it.  If I had listened to the experts and not questioned what they were telling me, my kids would have been burying me this last week.  It was only because I used my own logic and reasoning that I'm alive right now.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> So the parents that are being forced to work as essential workers get placed in harms way (and have to pay for it too...not to mention the day care workers) but the teacher's because they are too precious get off scott free?  Nice!  If we are talking overall numbers, I'd rather they shut down the protests, shut down the restaurants, shutdown the aircon and plumbers and leave the schools open because 1) science says kids transmit it less, and 2) the kids are more important than any of those.


I don’t feel sorry for your predicament. If you can’t handle your HS child spending a semester studying online, you lack intestinal fortitude. You’re acting like the very lives of our HS students hang in the balance if they can’t attend school in person for one semester at most - although the lives of many teachers and students also actually do hang in the balance if they attend in person. Is your child going to get as good an education online? Maybe not for you since you prefer to spend your time whining instead of movng forward, although I know mine will because I will take responsibility for helping find success. And I don’t have a bad attitude that will inevitably rub off on them.

Your point of view is unpersuasive and frankly pathetic. Get your s**t together. Woman up.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Unfortunately, I don’t know.  However, if I look at my limited personal experience I’d be open to bussing.  My family were migrant workers so I followed the crops and moved often as a child.  By far, the best schools that I attended were in S. Florida that had busing to integrate schools.


Interesting. I taught in South Florida (Broward County) in the early 90's in a Magnate School - sort of a school within a school. Schools "competed" for kids throughout the county to be part of the program. If a kid got in, they were bused to the school - "voluntary" busing. Many of the Magnate schools were located in disadvantaged neighborhoods and the Magnate Program brought in some very high performing students.

Is it wrong that I didn't really remember this until you prompted it, but I did remember RJ's landing on Fort Lauderdale beach where on Fridays from 3:00P-4:00P, drinks were free and from 4:00-5:00 they were $1?


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Your point of view is unpersuasive and frankly pathetic. Get your s**t together. Woman up.


Hmmmm...I'd say the same to the teacher's union.

In any case, it's not going to be a semester.  When all is said and done it will be close to a year, because children won't be prioritized either for the vaccine.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Hmmmm...I'd say the same to the teacher's union.
> 
> In any case, it's not going to be a semester.  When all is said and done it will be close to a year, because children won't be prioritized either for the vaccine.


Your self-pity is very impressive. But I really think you should turn that frown upside down and show a little optimism. I mean, Americans are so stupid in general that we’re doomed without a vaccine, but I think there are enough smart people out there to crank one out sooner than you think.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Interesting. I taught in South Florida (Broward County) in the early 90's in a Magnate School - sort of a school within a school. Schools "competed" for kids throughout the county to be part of the program. If a kid got in, they were bused to the school - "voluntary" busing. Many of the Magnate schools were located in disadvantaged neighborhoods and the Magnate Program brought in some very high performing students.
> 
> Is it wrong that I didn't really remember this until you prompted it, but I did remember RJ's landing on Fort Lauderdale beach where on Fridays from 3:00P-4:00P, drinks were free and from 4:00-5:00 they were $1?


I attended Lincoln Park Academy Magnet in the ghetto of Ft. Pierce in St Lucie county.  Most of the affluent kids were bussed from Port St. Lucie.

The regular kids in St Lucie County had involuntary busing.  I believe Port St Lucie made national news in 1992 due to skinhead protest over the poor mostly minority kids being bussed to Port St. Lucie HS.

When I returned to CA, teachers from my magnet school pulled some strings and were able to get me into Mission San Jose H.S. in Fremont, CA

lol How did you forget RJ’s?


----------



## notintheface (Jul 23, 2020)

Pay teachers more.


----------



## watfly (Jul 23, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Pay teachers more.


Maybe that's their angle since people who don't work seemed to get paid more now.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 23, 2020)

toucan said:


> *Concerning Teachers*:  Teachers have a right to be concerned.  A teacher in a middle school or high school may be in the same room as 100 different kids during the day.  As of July 22, California had 413,500 confirmed Covid-19 cases, just a shade over 1% of California's population.  The death rate in California for confirmed cases is 7,870, which is just a hair below 2%.  California has about 300,000 teachers in K-12 public schools.  There are more in private schools.  Let's say that just 2% of teachers get the virus, and 2% die.  That translates to somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 sick teachers, and 120 - 240 deaths.  Why should teachers have to take this risk when the general public does not?
> 
> *Concerning Public Health*:  But the biggest danger is not to teachers.  Kids with the corona-virus will more likely spread it to each other than to teachers.  Those kids will go home, and some will spread it to their families.  People say that we should open school "for the kids," because they seem to do better with the virus than adults.  But that does not help Grandma or Grandpa.  We have public safety laws to protect the public.  We close schools partly to protect kids, but also to protect the larger public.


How many do the $15 hr. grocery store clerks come in contact with each day?


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Damn. Delivered the KO in nine words.


Not really, integration would be great but we can't do that with white racist democrats like joe biden preventing it. Attack this from all sides, homeschooling, private school vouchers even if only for low income families, charter schools, or integration through busing that biden prevented. Lets do all the above. The unions are preventing all the above thanks to white racist liberals like biden.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

Soccerfan2 said:


> [
> 
> Well, it looks like you’ve got it all figured out! You have watched some TV about this.


Are you saying the documentary is fake news? That Obama is wrong for expanding charter schools? The cory booker is wrong for pushing charter schools? Which is it?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 23, 2020)

Soccerfan2 said:


> [
> 
> Well, it looks like you’ve got it all figured out! You have watched some TV about this.


You're afraid to watch.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> 1. He's been awful in all this.  Wrong several time and a history of telling half-truths.  In fairness, lot's of others have been horrible.
> 2. Yes, his expertise is far greater than mine but that's one of the problems we have and why we are in the mess we are in.  My record is simply better than his.  Whether I'd put my judgment up against his depends on what the question is.
> 3. On the subject of deferring to the experts, I've written this before.  I have a highly drug resistant bacterial infection right now.  The doctors gave me some really bad advice for treating it.  If I had listened to the experts and not questioned what they were telling me, my kids would have been burying me this last week.  It was only because I used my own logic and reasoning that I'm alive right now.


4. Fauci today was caught in the bleechers of the basegame (regular folks don't get to do that), not socially distancing up there, and with his mask off.  I had to drop off the car to get serviced for Utah last weekend while I still had my infection.  Sat in the park for 2 hours in 90 degree heat while I waited for it.  Got very dehydrated because I couldn't drink anything.  When I went to pick it up, they lost my car and had me standing in the sun in a mask for 20 minutes.  I happily wore the mask, didn't take it off or let it poke under my nose...around the 15 minute mark I got light headed and went boom down onto the pavement.  Scuffed up my hand and thankfully didn't hit my head.  I did a better job than Fauci with the mask


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286517178309779457


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 23, 2020)

Opinion | Joe Biden Bows to the Teachers Unions
					

‘You’ll have an NEA member in the White House,’ he says.




					www.wsj.com
				




Like I said, white racist liberals like biden that prevented integration of schools are catering to teachers unions for $$$. Black democrats that actually care about minorities like Obama and cory booker pushed charter schools.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 23, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I attended Lincoln Park Academy Magnet in the ghetto of Ft. Pierce in St Lucie county.  Most of the affluent kids were bussed from Port St. Lucie.
> 
> The regular kids in St Lucie County had involuntary busing.  I believe Port St Lucie made national news in 1992 due to skinhead protest over the poor mostly minority kids being bussed to Port St. Lucie HS.
> 
> ...


Definitely didn't forget RJ's. What I didn't recall was that we actually had busing that desegregated - at least to some extent. From my limited experience down there, I thought it worked well. It was my favorite experience in teaching.  

Damn, 1992 - I was about 1.5 hours south, but I can't say I remember the protest. At that age those weren't the "social issues" that had my attention. I was blissfully ignorant.


----------



## Real Deal (Jul 23, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> 4. Fauci today was caught in the bleechers of the basegame (regular folks don't get to do that), not socially distancing up there, and with his mask off.  I had to drop off the car to get serviced for Utah last weekend *while I still had my infection.*  Sat in the park for 2 hours in 90 degree heat while I waited for it.  Got very dehydrated because I couldn't drink anything.  When I went to pick it up, they lost my car and had me standing in the sun in a mask for 20 minutes.  I happily wore the mask, didn't take it off or let it poke under my nose...around the 15 minute mark I got light headed and went boom down onto the pavement.  Scuffed up my hand and thankfully didn't hit my head.  I did a better job than Fauci with the mask
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286517178309779457


Seriously?  You were out and about, getting your car serviced, while infected with Covid-19.  Lucky car mechanics.  Have you checked in on them? Did they catch your "infection?" Did anyone get your infection who sat in the park bench after you were gone?  No offense, but can't you look in the mirror and see that this is the kind of selfishness that has gotten us so mired in this mess in the first place?? 

You have no idea whether Fauci was with family members, or had taken a rapid test just that day (which he probably does often). My guess is he  was most assuredly NOT infected when this photo was taken.  Meanwhile, you do know that, you, yourself, were out and about all over town while you were most certainly, infected.  Can you not see the hypocrisy here?  May be best not to comment in your case.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I attended Lincoln Park Academy Magnet in the ghetto of Ft. Pierce in St Lucie county.*  Most of the affluent kids* were bussed from Port St. Lucie.
> 
> The* regular kids* in St Lucie County had involuntary busing.  I believe Port St Lucie made national news in 1992 due to skinhead protest over the poor mostly minority kids being bussed to Port St. Lucie HS.
> 
> ...


This is honest reporting Dre.  Rich kids ((first class)) and their parents in today's America come in all colors.  It's called first class sir and many have inherited decedents coin, like from a great grandpa or worked they way up to the top by cheating or working hard and doing it right.  The regular kids ((middle class)) also comes in many flavors and parents are trying to keep with with the Joneses and make it rich some day.  The dirt Poor Kids ((Low Class)) also come in all colors.
Let's try not to add a color to any of the three classes like, "rich white kids" or "Those racists middle class white dudes)) or those poor white folk.  This is what drives me batty.  Outlaw does it all the time.
Today I took a plane to Boise.  I passed some rich folks in first class and then I passed the middle class and then I found my middle class seat.  My friend who is poor, found a spot in the wheel well and flew as a stowaway because he had no money and I;m saving my cash so I can be like Mr Jones.  It's the way the world works.  Dont buy the lie with your soul is my advice.  Opportunities like what is happening today comes around like never so many many people see away to make a quick buck and their doing it.  The problem I see is people have to sleep with themselves at night and get reminded in their mind that what they did to win was wrong and in some cases illegal.   Many go to bed feeling ashamed of themselves and feel guilty.  So after not being able to sleep naturally because of a guilty conscious, they drink and take pills to fall asleep and that's how America works sometimes to make it to the top.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 24, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> This is honest reporting Dre.  Rich kids ((first class)) and their parents in today's America come in all colors.  It's called first class sir and many have inherited decedents coin, like from a great grandpa or worked they way up to the top by cheating or working hard and doing it right.  The regular kids ((middle class)) also comes in many flavors and parents are trying to keep with with the Joneses and make it rich some day.  The dirt Poor Kids ((Low Class)) also come in all colors.
> Let's try not to add a color to any of the three classes like, "rich white kids" or "Those racists middle class white dudes)) or those poor white folk.  This is what drives me batty.  Outlaw does it all the time.
> Today I took a plane to Boise.  I passed some rich folks in first class and then I passed the middle class and then I found my middle class seat.  My friend who is poor, found a spot in the wheel well and flew as a stowaway because he had no money and I;m saving my cash so I can be like Mr Jones.  It's the way the world works.  Dont buy the lie with your soul is my advice.  Opportunities like what is happening today comes around like never so many many people see away to make a quick buck and their doing it.  The problem I see is people have to sleep with themselves at night and get reminded in their mind that what they did to win was wrong and in some cases illegal.   Many go to bed feeling ashamed of themselves and feel guilty.  So after not being able to sleep naturally because of a guilty conscious, they drink and take pills to fall asleep and that's how America works sometimes to make it to the top.


Class is a complicated topic.  I remember when I started college at UCD, I was lost culturally and in over my head.  I sought out black folks to hang with because that is what I knew.  Most of the black kids were upper middle class like my daughter and I had NOTHING in common with them.

In all of my Ag-Econ class there were a lot of first generation college white dudes from rural areas that grew up poor.  I had more in common with the white guys than I did with the black folks because we had similar class backgrounds.  I relate to all folks from the struggle.  I support all kids from the struggle.  If I saw a poor white kid that needed assistance, I would prioritize that kid over a middle class black kid.
However, I don’t think you can talk about class in America without talking about race.  For several of the white guys that I hung out with in undergrad and law school, I’m “their black buddy.”  I have a very Conservative friend that’s a career prosecutor in Orange County and we always partied together during law school.  At first, he accused me of playing the race card and then after one night of drinking I told him to let me see if I could get a taxi.  He watched taxis speed by me for at least an hour before he intervened.  It took my white friend less than 5 minutes to get us a taxi.  So race matters and white privilege exist in all social classes.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

Real Deal said:


> Seriously?  You were out and about, getting your car serviced, while infected with Covid-19.  Lucky car mechanics.  Have you checked in on them? Did they catch your "infection?" Did anyone get your infection who sat in the park bench after you were gone?  No offense, but can't you look in the mirror and see that this is the kind of selfishness that has gotten us so mired in this mess in the first place??
> 
> You have no idea whether Fauci was with family members, or had taken a rapid test just that day (which he probably does often). My guess is he  was most assuredly NOT infected when this photo was taken.  Meanwhile, you do know that, you, yourself, were out and about all over town while you were most certainly, infected.  Can you not see the hypocrisy here?  May be best not to comment in your case.


Reading comprehension. I had a bacterial infection not Covid. You can’t catch it by walking around next to me. You’d have to perform some truly intimate acts to have a chance to get it and men generally don’t since it’s a girl thing. Wow if this is how bad the fear porn has gotten I feel pretty sorry for you. 

As to fauci unless he’s living in a threesome there’s no way that meets any social distancing requirement and it most certainly does not meet most mask orders (in fact fauci has criticized people for removing masks for conversation). This is the third time he’s been caught doing this. He’s your fallen idol, not mine.


----------



## oh canada (Jul 24, 2020)

Is there another State that is taking away the local county or school district's decision-making authority?  Or is California the only 1 of 50?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Class is a complicated topic.  I remember when I started college at UCD, I was lost culturally and in over my head.  I sought out black folks to hang with because that is what I knew.  Most of the black kids were upper middle class like my daughter and I had NOTHING in common with them.
> 
> In all of my Ag-Econ class there were a lot of first generation college white dudes from rural areas that grew up poor.  I had more in common with the white guys than I did with the black folks because we had similar class backgrounds.  I relate to all folks from the struggle.  I support all kids from the struggle.  If I saw a poor white kid that needed assistance, I would prioritize that kid over a middle class black kid.
> However, I don’t think you can talk about class in America without talking about race.  For several of the white guys that I hung out with in undergrad and law school, I’m “their black buddy.”  I have a very Conservative friend that’s a career prosecutor in Orange County and we always partied together during law school.  At first, he accused me of playing the race card and then after one night of drinking I told him to let me see if I could get a taxi.  He watched taxis speed by me for at least an hour before he intervened.  It took my white friend less than 5 minutes to get us a taxi.  So race matters and white privilege exist in all social classes.


Thanks for the back & forth.  Class & race is a tough one but something we need to talk about.  I see those Taxi drivers as the ones who lost out Dre. I'm sure you tip well and are a classy guy.  I can tell you my son's first crush was a white girl.  My son told me before this painful moment that he just identified as kid.  Not white kid, not brown kid not Mexican or Irish kid.  He was just kid.  Why is that Dre?  The real world of segregation came in 8th grade and this white girl was in love with my son but her grand parents said you cant date a Mexican.  It was crushing on my son.  I told him it's sad how parents stop true love all because they don;t like a color of someone.  How many parents or grand parents are like this in America?  Please add all the races Dre.  This goes with Asians too and black folks. Latinos have some issues too.  Marry your race is about what?  I was walking around Irvine Spectrum the other day and I can say 100% we have a melting pot in socal and oc.  You said some dark things about OC and that hurt. I told you I was engaged to black woman before I married my Native America Angel.  I was told by a few people not to do that.  Talk about counting the cost before you say, "I do."  I guess what I'm saying is I think their are more fair minded people then ignorant folks.  I think our country is awesome and good.  If I didn;t, I would leave.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension. I had a bacterial infection not Covid. You can’t catch it by walking around next to me. You’d have to perform some truly intimate acts to have a chance to get it and men generally don’t since it’s a girl thing. Wow if this is how bad the fear porn has gotten I feel pretty sorry for you.
> 
> As to fauci unless he’s living in a threesome there’s no way that meets any social distancing requirement and it most certainly does not meet most mask orders (in fact fauci has criticized people for removing masks for conversation). This is the third time he’s been caught doing this. He’s your fallen idol, not mine.


Fauci has a wife and three children.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

oh canada said:


> Is there another State that is taking away the local county or school district's decision-making authority?  Or is California the only 1 of 50?


Yup.  I dont think this is going to hold up.  If it does, my family will obey as we always try to do.  That throw said it all for me.  I was willing to give Fauci the benefit of the doubt so i told my wife if he throws a strike to the catcher ((not a real strike but a throw that the catcher can catch and it has to be in the air)) I will believe him from now on.  I guess t has his turn coming up.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Fauci has a wife and three children.


So he has his adult child with grey hair living with him?  Now i just feel sorry for him


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> So he has his adult child with grey hair living with him?  Now i just feel sorry for him


I can;t wait to unleash my dd on here.....lol!!!  I think some of these men need a slap in the face Grace.  I got slapped so many times I'm a good boy now.  My mom was given away in foster care and went through 23 different homes before she was 4.  She was told how bad she was and no one wanted her.  Woman have the true power and we all now why   Mother Earth is about to unleash it soon.  Thank you for standing up for choice and freedom Grace.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> So he has his adult child with grey hair living with him?  Now i just feel sorry for him


What point are you trying to make?


----------



## MacDre (Jul 24, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Thanks for the back & forth.  Class & race is a tough one but something we need to talk about.  I see those Taxi drivers as the ones who lost out Dre. I'm sure you tip well and are a classy guy.  I can tell you my son's first crush was a white girl.  My son told me before this painful moment that he just identified as kid.  Not white kid, not brown kid not Mexican or Irish kid.  He was just kid.  Why is that Dre?  The real world of segregation came in 8th grade and this white girl was in love with my son but her grand parents said you cant date a Mexican.  It was crushing on my son.  I told him it's sad how parents stop true love all because they don;t like a color of someone.  How many parents or grand parents are like this in America?  Please add all the races Dre.  This goes with Asians too and black folks. Latinos have some issues too.  Marry your race is about what?  I was walking around Irvine Spectrum the other day and I can say 100% we have a melting pot in socal and oc.  You said some dark things about OC and that hurt. I told you I was engaged to black woman before I married my Native America Angel.  I was told by a few people not to do that.  Talk about counting the cost before you say, "I do."  I guess what I'm saying is I think their are more fair minded people then ignorant folks.  I think our country is awesome and good.  If I didn;t, I would leave.


I think “melting pot” is an exaggeration.  I think “salad bowl” is more appropriate because every ethnicity is present but they aren’t interacting with each other much; this is also present at the universities where the students self segregate.

We need to figure out how to integrate kids better.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> Let's suppose for purposes of argument that you are correct, and that the *only* reason for closing schools is because teachers are afraid of catching Covid-19.  Don't you think their fear is warranted?  Do you believe that teachers, administrators and staff should be *required* to expose themselves to a higher risk of infection?
> 
> How do you propose to run schools if a significant percentage of teachers, administrators and staff refuse to show up?


I just want everyone to be treated equally. Kids are the most important because they are the future. The science shows they have lower transmission levels than adults

If the teachers are scared and can’t be forced back to work then neither should McDonald’s workers, plumbers, air con workers, movers.  Keep the bars gyms theme parks, barbers, restaurants shuttered.  Relock it down until there’s a vaccine because no one (except maybe the owner him or herself) should be forced to work if they don’t want to. Shut down the protests with force if necessary Because the schools should be open before any of those and teaches aren’t any more special than any of those workers.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> What point are you trying to make?


1. He violated his own social distancing requirements. 2. He violated his own mask requirements. 3. This is not the first time he’s been caught doing it. 4. Fauci has been awful throughout all this. His personal behavior is just part of that. Though in fairness lots of people both left and right have been awful.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think “melting pot” is an exaggeration.  I think “salad bowl” is more appropriate because every ethnicity is present but they aren’t interacting with each other much; this is also present at the universities where the students self segregate.
> 
> We need to figure out how to integrate kids better.


Yes, Sunday church for many was "Segregation Sunday Service."  The churches I went too were mix salad bowl for sure.  We all agreed to follow the laws and the rules of the great book.  I will say many took this way too far at times but it also works for many and I would never deny anyone their religious rights to worship and follow the laws of a book. To each his own and that is what is great about America.  It's amazing to me that in the old days the schools were forced to pray and be christian.  Now, it's the opposite.  I personally think that's where dualism is hurting our country.  Either or is not good anymore.  Both and, is the key to the future.


----------



## Banana Hammock (Jul 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> ... lack intestinal fortitude...


How ironic


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> How do you propose to run schools if a significant percentage of teachers, administrators and staff refuse to show up?


They shouldn't get paid. Everyone else that cannot go into work doesn't get a paycheck. Sit at home, survive off your savings if you like. You know...like the rest of us that are not making money because of gov restrictions.

Or they could look at the data and see that covid is about 2.5X more deadly than the flu. They could understand that half of all deaths in the US have occurred in those 80 and above.

They could realize the risk is extremely small. That would actually require math and looking at data however which is something a lot of people don't do

Or live in fear in the basement, but the public shouldn't be paying those not willing to work.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> 1. He violated his own social distancing requirements. 2. He violated his own mask requirements. 3. This is not the first time he’s been caught doing it. 4. Fauci has been awful throughout all this. His personal behavior is just part of that. Though in fairness lots of people both left and right have been awful.


He was a guest at the game to throw out the first pitch, so he could sit pretty much anywhere he wanted to.  As for the mask, he has one around his neck and it appears to be down while he is eating or drinking something, undoubtedly provided by his hosts since the concession stands were not open.

Your ongoing campaign against Fauci is just making you look partisan and bitter.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> They could understand that half of all deaths in the US have occurred in those 80 and above.


In any given period before covid was a problem, about half the deaths in the US occurred in those 80 and above, so repeating that statistic is meaningless.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> He was a guest at the game to throw out the first pitch, so he could sit pretty much anywhere he wanted to.  As for the mask, he has one around his neck and it appears to be down while he is eating or drinking something, undoubtedly provided by his hosts since the concession stands were not open.
> 
> Your ongoing campaign against Fauci is just making you look partisan and bitter.


Hard to be partisan when I’ve criticized both Trump and Johnson. I’ll plead guilty to the bitter. This is just a blatant exercise of interest group power at the expense of children so you bet I’m bitter about it particularly given that the new cdc recommendations land hard in favor of school reopening. And you are right...he could chose to sit anywhere. It’s a poor choice. Thank you for pointing that out. Appreciate the assist.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> It worked in the Northeastern States like New York and New Jersey. Covid-19 is not eliminated anywhere, but it is now very manageable in the northeast


The lockdown in the NE worked? Wow that is fascinating. 

Those 5 states contributed to about HALF of all the deaths in the US. Combined they have a population of 50 million. 

The other 45 states with 280 million have the other half of the deaths. 

So if AZ locked down and then jumped to as high of a death rate as NY they could then be counted as a success? 

If you think that lockdowns worked in the NE...have at it. 

By the way when you look at the largest countries in Europe and add up all their deaths (I refer to UK, Spain, Germany, Italy and France...who have about the same population as the US) they have slightly more deaths vs the US. 

I know...numbers. Details

But go ahead explain to us again how the lockdowns in the NE produced good results again?


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> If your argument is that we need a total lockdown except for the most essential services, then I generally agree with you.  I don't see any other way around this.  A total lockdown of 4-6 weeks worked in other places.  It worked in the Northeastern States like New York and New Jersey.  Covid-19 is not eliminated anywhere, but it is now very manageable in the northeast and most of Europe.*
> 
> I see a problem in identifying which are "essential services," but they were able to navigate a path in New York.  We could generally follow its model.
> 
> ...


Sweden’s doing great now. Despite having no restrictions and making the same stupid mistakes as New York the virus has practically disappeared

Spain is in a mini second wave despite all the lockdowns (largely in the Barcelona area which wasn’t hit as hard). France is also in a second wave and it’s prime minister has called the lockdownS a mistake and promised not to do it again. The lancet report also recently showed lockdown have very little effect.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> In any given period before covid was a problem, about half the deaths in the US occurred in those 80 and above, so repeating that statistic is meaningless.


No it is not when you are looking at who is dying from the virus. 

Because that number tells you precisely who is most affected by the virus. 

It also tells you most other age groups really have little issue with the virus. 

That is why age related data is important Richard.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

If the left wants to keep schools closed this fall and likely the year...why the need for more funding?

"Nevertheless, the Wall Street Journal reports that education special interests are demanding, through their Democrat representatives, nearly half a _trillion_ in additional deficit spending for the fall without requiring schools to operate. Yes, you read that right: Democrats want nearly $430 billion _extra_ to put kids in the equivalent of Khan Academy online math lessons. Did I mention that Khan Academy is free? And that the ask to duplicate it is 6_00 percent more_ than _annual_ federal spending on K-12?"









						La La Land Congress To Give Billions To Public Schools To Stay Closed
					

It’s an indictment of Republican leadership that President Trump, who like most businessmen knows nothing about education, has better political instincts.




					thefederalist.com


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Hard to be partisan when I’ve criticized both Trump and Johnson. I’ll plead guilty to the bitter. This is just a blatant exercise of interest group power at the expense of children so you bet I’m bitter about it particularly given that the new cdc recommendations land hard in favor of school reopening. And you are right...he could chose to sit anywhere. It’s a poor choice. Thank you for pointing that out. Appreciate the assist.


Please continue.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 24, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think “melting pot” is an exaggeration.  I think “salad bowl” is more appropriate because every ethnicity is present but they aren’t interacting with each other much; this is also present at the universities where the students self segregate.
> 
> We need to figure out how to integrate kids better.


This is where I am - salad bowl. We have a diverse population, some diversity among races in each class, but little diversity by class.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> No it is not when you are looking at who is dying from the virus.
> 
> Because that number tells you precisely who is most affected by the virus.
> 
> ...


Are you making an argument that old people are just going to die soon anyway so we should just back off from all restrictions?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> *Concerning Online Education*:  Even if Covid-19 did not exist, we need more online education and less "in-school" education.  And we need to focus on the most important elements of education.  *We should not be paying so kids can play school sports, or participate in band.* *Public education should have a very heavy emphasis on math, science, literature and writing*.  There should be a much lesser component on the humanities.  80% of all schooling can be done online.
> 
> We don't need high schools to take up 50 acres of land.  We don't need football fields, or gymnasiums.  Kids should attend the campus no more than twice per week, and do everything else online.
> 
> We have turned our schools into daycare centers, and people seem to think that schools are there to develop the "whole child."  Its wrong.  Schools are asked to do too much.


Are you serious?  What % of kids can;t read or write in America?  This sounds more like Charter schools to be honest.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Sweden’s doing great now. Despite having no restrictions and making the same stupid mistakes as New York the virus has practically disappeared
> 
> Spain is in a mini second wave despite all the lockdowns (largely in the Barcelona area which wasn’t hit as hard). France is also in a second wave and it’s prime minister has called the lockdownS a mistake and promised not to do it again. The lancet report also recently showed lockdown have very little effect.


Ps it’s pretty clear from around the world that no government policies have worked.  The two exceptions are Chinese/Vietnamese lockdowns with forced testing, mandatory enforced quarantines, forced removal from homes and welding people in. Other exception is some islands that caught it early and shut themselves off from the world. We are at the point where the only 2 choices are live with it with some reasonable social distancing and measures, or lockdown until a vaccine. If lockdown forever don’t ask a poor plumber or aircon guy or mover into your house.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Are you making an argument that old people are just going to die soon anyway so we should just back off from all restrictions?


No, what he is saying I have said 10 times is that some folks go over to say hi to grandpa when they should have never said hi in person.  They share these corona death storeis like 80 year is sitting at his house and the wind brought in the virus from the open window.  No, some parents or kids make bad decision and bring the death virus to gramps.  Only zoom or phone with us. Follow the rules and death will come down.  Mask is important when being inside 6 ft.  Fauci could have sat two seats away and wear no mask but they chose to sit next to each other.  Media stunt? The other type of 83 year old is one who lives alone and gets a stroke.  In the hospital he catches Corona.  Triple pay?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Are you making an argument that old people are just going to die soon anyway so we should just back off from all restrictions?


I am making the argument that the rest of us can go on. 

Old people are the ones who should be self quarantined. 

Have them stay home and away from the general population and right there you have a good chance of cutting deaths in HALF.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Sweden’s doing great now. Despite having no restrictions and making the same stupid mistakes as New York the virus has practically disappeared
> 
> Spain is in a mini second wave despite all the lockdowns (largely in the Barcelona area which wasn’t hit as hard). France is also in a second wave and it’s prime minister has called the lockdownS a mistake and promised not to do it again. The lancet report also recently showed lockdown have very little effect.


Sweden compared to its neighbors, all of whom had strict social controls starting early in the pandemic --









						Covid Trends
					

Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.




					aatishb.com


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> If your argument is that we need a total lockdown except for the most essential services, then I generally agree with you.  I don't see any other way around this.  A total lockdown of 4-6 weeks worked in other places.  It worked in the Northeastern States like New York and New Jersey.  Covid-19 is not eliminated anywhere, but it is now very manageable in the northeast and most of Europe.*


A big reason it is manageable in the Northeast is due to the early failure to contain the virus so that a significant proportion have immunity and killing off a large number of those annoyingly high risk patients in nursing homes.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> Sweden is *not* doing great.  It now has the third highest Covid-19 death rate at 561 per million of population, just behind Italy and Spain.  That is significantly higher than the US, which has a death rate of 442 per million.
> 
> In terms of infections, Sweden is at 7,770 per million, which is the highest in Europe.  Spain is second with 6,729 per million.  I do agree that Sweden is doing better today than it was last month or the month before.


Maybe she thinks no one is going to look it up.  Or maybe she has access to data sources no one else has.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Ps it’s pretty clear from around the world that no government policies have worked.


That is not true.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> A big reason it is manageable in the Northeast is due to the early failure to contain the virus so that a significant proportion have immunity and killing off a large number of those annoyingly high risk patients in nursing homes.


Bingo


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Ps it’s pretty clear from around the world that no government policies have worked.  The two exceptions are Chinese/Vietnamese lockdowns with forced testing, mandatory enforced quarantines, forced removal from homes and welding people in. Other exception is some islands that caught it early and shut themselves off from the world. We are at the point where the only 2 choices are live with it with some reasonable social distancing and measures, or lockdown until a vaccine. If lockdown forever don’t ask a *poor plumber or aircon guy* or mover into your house.


I can say that the big plumbing companies are struggling big time.  I helped a guy up in LA who has over 30 trucks.  Copa said they paid $225 for 30 minutes of work.  If it's just Joe the Plumber, he a made a few bucks depending on how Copa found Joe.  Google and Yelp is not cheap to advertise. Plus truck, GL, Workers Comp and all the requirements to be a real plumber in Cali, not much meat on the bones at $225.  If Copa called a big company like the guy I know IN LA, then the owner lost money on that deal with Copa but did get a new customer and that has value for repeat biz.  Just to get to someone's door can have a "True Cost" ((TC)) to the door is insane.  The TC in OC is well over $300 to see green


----------



## watfly (Jul 24, 2020)

toucan said:


> *Note: Sweden is an exception.  Sweden did not lock down at all, and is now paying the price.


The US has 10 states with a higher death rate than Sweden.  NJ is nearly 3x higher and NY and CT are 2x higher.  Sweden may not be the gold standard for combating the Covid virus, but it did much better than these states without having the other health and education issues caused by a lock down.

Toucan what factual (not emotional) basis do you have for teachers being treated differently than other essential workers (or even non-essential workers for that matter)?  And keep in mind no one is proposing that teachers go back to work without reasonable protections.

What evidence do you have that contradicts the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Academy of Medicine, a 70% majority of epidemiologists interviewed by the New York Times that all agree that kids should return to school in a physical capacity?  What evidence do you have that contradicts a recent study in England that concluded that worldwide there have been no incidents of pupil to teacher transmission?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

This is from DC...but this is politics as it relates the virus. The mayor extended the face mask requirement....but exempted many local and fed gov workers. Why? Are they more important? Less susceptible?

This is a variation of what is going on in the schools. The gov is trying to exempt their big money donor (the education union) from actually having to go into work. They are different. More special somehow I guess. And yes they will expect to be paid while hiding in their basement at home as well.

“The enforcement provisions of this Order shall not be applied to persons in the judicial or legislative branches of the District government while those persons are on duty; and shall not apply to any employees of the federal government while they are on duty,”

https://mayor.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mayormb/release_content/attachments/Mayor's Order 2020-080 Wearing Masks in DC to Prevent COVID19.pdf


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Let's pay in school teachers a little extra and the other teachers teach online and they get paid the same?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Just to refresh everyone's memory. These are some of the demands by the LA union in order to re-open the schools.

This is what you are up against. As I look through the demands...it is clear to me children and the virus are of utmost importance...or not. 

The union demands, among other things:


$250 million in extra taxpayer funding for Los Angeles schools,
An additional $500 billion in federal funding,
Government-run Medicare for All,
A wealth tax,
An increase in the California state income tax,
Defunding the police,
A ban on new charter schools, and
Public benefits for illegal immigrants as part of the plan to reopen schools.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> This is from DC...but this is politics as it relates the virus. The mayor extended the face mask requirement....but exempted many local and fed gov workers. Why? Are they more important? Less susceptible?
> 
> This is a variation of what is going on in the schools. The gov is trying to exempt their big money donor (the education union) from actually having to go into work. They are different. More special somehow I guess. And yes they will expect to be paid while hiding in their basement at home as well.
> 
> ...


Education unions are the government’s big money donor?  That’s one of the dumber things I’ve heard here.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Just to refresh everyone's memory. These are some of the demands by the LA union in order to re-open the schools.
> 
> This is what you are up against. As I look through the demands...it is clear to me children and the virus are of utmost importance...or not.
> 
> ...


This is all negotiations and you have to put it all on the table.  The other side right now is only asking for freedom to choose a charter and home school or a mix of both.  When we tried to home school it failed.  However, my wife still wanted to teach the kids some and still have her freedom to shop anytime she felt like.  So we did try a hybrid model with an outfit called RiverSprings.  Three days of school and two days of bonding time with mommy.  I worked from home so I got to be with my kids too and teach them outdoor stuff.  We took field trips and it was super fun.  However, my wife put my son's name at TPS and the third time was a charm and my son was picked from lottery.  We talked about it and we enrolled him there. Best decision ever and my son thanks me because he said he would have been weird if home schooled forever.  The next year my dd got automatically in because of her sibling brother.  She tells me her life would have been ruined if I forced her to go there.  My wife said it would be good for her and I over ruled her and let her out of that place.  My wife says I was 100% right on both of my kids education choices


----------



## EOTL (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Just to refresh everyone's memory. These are some of the demands by the LA union in order to re-open the schools.
> 
> This is what you are up against. As I look through the demands...it is clear to me children and the virus are of utmost importance...or not.
> 
> ...


And then there’s you:

Make teachers risk their lives
Make students risk their lives
Endanger the lives of every family member who lives with a student or teacher
Pay teachers less
Take away teacher employee benefits


----------



## Banana Hammock (Jul 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Education unions are the government’s big money donor?  That’s one of the dumber things I’ve heard here.








						CALIFORNIA TEACHERS ASSOCIATION - FollowTheMoney.org
					

CALIFORNIA TEACHERS ASSOCIATION -




					www.followthemoney.org


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Sweden compared to its neighbors, all of whom had strict social controls starting early in the pandemic --
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading comprehension.  Relevant phrase is NOW.  In Sweden with no lockdowns and masks, the virus is practically gone.  In France and Spain with the toughtest lockdowns in the western world, 2nd wave.


----------



## Banana Hammock (Jul 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Education unions are the government’s big money donor?  That’s one of the dumber things I’ve heard here.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Maybe she thinks no one is going to look it up.  Or maybe she has access to data sources no one else has.


Meh.  You're the one with the reading comprehension issue.  If I may take you back to 5th grade: "Now".  France and Spain are experiencing 2nd waves despite having had the toughest lockdowns in the world.  Sweden despite having done nothing including some incredibly stupid stuff is having the virus burn out.  Government policies have no impact on the Rona.  The virus is going to virus no matter what you do to it.  









						Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Ah...a charter school system to the rescue.









						Success Academy shows how school leaders behave when kids come first
					

Once again, the leaders of the Success Academy charter network are showing what it means to truly put children and their education first. Every year, SA schools start classes weeks earlier than the…




					nypost.com


----------



## dad4 (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> The lockdown in the NE worked? Wow that is fascinating.
> 
> Those 5 states contributed to about HALF of all the deaths in the US. Combined they have a population of 50 million.
> 
> ...


You seem to love comparing March deaths with July deaths.  

As you really ought to know by now, our treatments and PPE supply were worse in March.

If you want to compare two states, how about Arizona and New Mexico?  That way it is late outbreak versus late outbreak.  And you are both desert states, so we don’t have to correct for air conditioning.

New Mexico- mask rule, consistent lockdown since March 23.  
Arizona- no mask rule, lockdown lifted in May.

Results in the last 7 days?
AZ has had 8 deaths per 100,000 residents.   (251 cases per 100K)
NM has had 2 deaths per 100,000 residents.  (97 cases per 100K)

AZ policies have resulted in four times as many deaths as NM policies.  Maybe you should do whatever it is that they are doing?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Education unions are the government’s big money donor?  That’s one of the dumber things I’ve heard here.


Don't play dumb. Education unions overwhelmingly support Dem politicians. As a matter of fact they are some of the biggest donors around.


----------



## watfly (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Don't play dumb. Education unions overwhelmingly support Dem politicians. As a matter of fact they are some of the biggest donors around.
> 
> View attachment 8265


Your arrow skills are pretty impressive.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> You seem to love comparing March deaths with July deaths.
> 
> As you really ought to know by now, our treatments and PPE supply were worse in March.
> 
> ...


Lets see. Besides AZ you have complained about TX and FL.

NM does worse than both based on deaths per million and just slightly better vs GA.

NM has 284 deaths per million.
AZ has 433 deaths per million.

NM has 596 deaths. If they had our rate they would have 909 deaths. Statistically not much of a difference.

By the way for AZ to have 4 times the deaths as NM statistically...our rate per million would need to be 1136 deaths per million.

AZ economy is in better shape as well.

Interestingly cases in NM are still going up. AZ is going down.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Your arrow skills are pretty impressive.


Well @EOTL needs help. He won't pay attention anyway. But maybe something sticks.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You're not following too closely.  My kid is in private school  It was prepared to open with teachers that wanted to.  It had a safe plan, mostly outdoors, that one of the leads in the AAP report put together and some here described as a prison.  Newsom said no, so yes I'm bitter now about educators and if I had my way teacher's unions would be banned.





Desert Hound said:


> Just to refresh everyone's memory. These are some of the demands by the LA union in order to re-open the schools.
> 
> This is what you are up against. As I look through the demands...it is clear to me children and the virus are of utmost importance...or not.
> 
> ...


Absolutely FAKE News. That was for their November 2020 ballot.  Please read this article from TODAY!  



			LAUSD superintendent believes COVID-19 testing, contact tracing are keys to reopening schools
		


I win again!


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> You seem to love comparing March deaths with July deaths.
> 
> As you really ought to know by now, our treatments and PPE supply were worse in March.
> 
> ...


By the way...why is Cal still going up? I thought you guys had stricter rules in place vs AZ?

Lockdowns work right? 

Clearly in NM they are not as cases continue to rise. 

Here is CA


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Absolutely FAKE News. That was for their November 2020 ballot.  Please read this article from TODAY!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um...I believe it was @watfly that pointed out it was recent.

Here is the link to what I referenced. It is from JULY. Nothing to do with a November ballot.

And here is a screenshot from the first page. I am not sure why you have continuing trouble with this. It has been explained to you numerous times already.

Please tell me you are not a teacher. You seem to have trouble with basic concepts. Dates being one of them. Reading what the union proposes being another. 

Fish/Barrel/Shooting

PS: how was the arrow skills on this one @watfly?






						DocumentCloud
					






					www.documentcloud.org


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Don't play dumb. Education unions overwhelmingly support Dem politicians. As a matter of fact they are some of the biggest donors around.
> 
> View attachment 8265


Your disdain for teachers and teacher's unions clouds your objectivity.  I haven't heard you or Grace once say you are for reasonable protections for teachers.  Why you can't you do that?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Your disdain for teachers and teacher's unions clouds your objectivity.  I haven't heard you or Grace once say you are for reasonable protections for teachers.  Why you can't you do that?


Lets backtrack a comment or two.

You just said fake news and my post was referencing the Nov ballot.

I just provided the screenshot and the link that shows what the union is proposing NOW.

Any comments about their demands?

Or are you simply unaware of what your union is demanding on behalf of you?


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> This is from DC...but this is politics as it relates the virus. The mayor extended the face mask requirement....but exempted many local and fed gov workers. Why? Are they more important? Less susceptible?
> 
> This is a variation of what is going on in the schools. The gov is trying to exempt their big money donor (the education union) from actually having to go into work. They are different. More special somehow I guess. And yes they will expect to be paid while hiding in their basement at home as well.
> 
> ...


DC is a special case -- the city government has limited jurisdiction over federal workers.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Um...I believe it was @watfly that pointed out it was recent.
> 
> Here is the link to what I referenced. It is from JULY. Nothing to do with a November ballot.
> 
> ...


Brother you're not in my league.  I challenge everyone on this thread to go to page 10 and read the section that's headlined STATE SUPPORT.  All those demands are for the November 2020 Ballot.  Please read it.  Yes, this paper was published July 2020, but you're ignorant ass doesn't even read what he posts.  And if you read pages 2-10 you will see that's it's all about health and safety!  

DON'T FORGET TO READ IT BIG BOY.  Then let's see how much courage you have to come on here and say you were wrong.  

And did you not read today's article from the LAUSD Superintendent or will you just burry you're head in the sand.  

I win again!


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Shameful using the kids in America!!!


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> DC is a special case -- the city government has limited jurisdiction over federal workers.


You are correct in terms of Fed workers. What about their own employees that are exempted?


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension.  Relevant phrase is NOW.  In Sweden with no lockdowns and masks, the virus is practically gone.  In France and Spain with the toughtest lockdowns in the western world, 2nd wave.


The chart I presented includes NOW.  NOW they re back to about where they were in mid-March, roughly 1900 new cases a week.  Or did you have some personal meaning of "practically gone"?  

France and Spain are suffering a second wave after people started mingling again when the restrictions were eased about a month ago.


----------



## watfly (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> PS: how was the arrow skills on this one @watfly?


Honestly, not your best effort. 

Just a matter of note, less than two days after the LATU published its paper, the LAUSD and the SDUSD jointly issued a press release saying that fall would be online only.  Newsom followed a couple days later.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the timing is curious.

The union is the primary supporter and funder of Prop 15 on the November ballot.  This would eliminate Prop 13 protections for commercial properties which means the assessed value for these properties would be changed to current market value.  This means property taxes for these properties would sky rocket.  This dis-proportionally impacts small business, particularly those on NNN leases or family businesses that have owned their property for many years.  The economic impact to California is unfathomable.


----------



## dad4 (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> By the way...why is Cal still going up? I thought you guys had stricter rules in place vs AZ?
> 
> Lockdowns work right?
> 
> ...


Compliance in CA is kind of hit and miss.  Some dial in to work and only go out for grocery runs once a week.  Others run to Starbucks twice a day with their mask on their chin.

Not an expert on NM, but their rise seems a lot smaller than yours.  They may have compliance problems, too.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> The chart I presented includes NOW.  NOW they re back to about where they were in mid-March, roughly 1900 new cases a week.  Or did you have some personal meaning of "practically gone"?
> 
> France and Spain are suffering a second wave after people started mingling again when the restrictions were eased about a month ago.



Thanks for the assist again.  You've basically made my point.  Either we accept a perpetual lockdown or we acknowledge that there's not much we can do to control the Rona beyond some basic measures.  Blue pill or red pill.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> *Your disdain for teachers and teacher's unions clouds your objectivity*.  I haven't heard you or Grace once say you are for reasonable protections for teachers.  Why you can't you do that?


Just a fan, that's not true imo.  Hound has made some comments in hast as i have at times.  We all just want some of the healthy teachers to teach in class with the healthy students as some of the healthy air con guys are working as well as the healthy nurse and healthy grocery store.  I only see Gavin and Union saying no in class teaching.  No local decisions for schools is odd.  My friend is a middle school Principle with principles of virtue that he enforces at his school.  He has a plan and it's a perfect plan but he can't make a local decision.  All these mayors get mad at t for trying to help yet Gavin is forcing us all to go with his and the unions plan of no school.  Each city and school is not the same.  This is whacko bird stuff and a lot of us had some whacko, coo coo bird crap hit us all int face and folks are now waking up


----------



## oh canada (Jul 24, 2020)

Still waiting for a good explanation why the 49 other states have it wrong and California has it right re the State knowing better than individual school districts/counties/schools re control and decision-making for their local students.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Brother you're not in my league.  I challenge everyone on this thread to go to page 10 and read the section that's headlined STATE SUPPORT.  All those demands are for the November 2020 Ballot.  Please read it.  Yes, this paper was published July 2020, but you're ignorant ass doesn't even read what he posts.  And if you read pages 2-10 you will see that's it's all about health and safety!
> 
> DON'T FORGET TO READ IT BIG BOY.  Then let's see how much courage you have to come on here and say you were wrong.
> 
> ...


I started off with the title of the document. It states: The Same Storm, But Different Boats: The Safe & Equitable Conditions For Starting LAUSD in 2020-2021. 

Everything in that document relates to what they want in order to re-open the schools. The first clue is the title of the document FYI. 

Lets take a couple of examples you say were in the Nov ballot that were not. 

Defund the police? I think not. That just came about. 
Defund charter schools? The document specifically references the covid crisis as it relates to their demands in the documents. As I think back to Nov...there was no talk about covid.
Medicare for all? They specifically reference covid again. Covid wasn't around in Nov. 

Etc. I did go through it...ie read it. Apparently if you did, your comprehension is a bit low. 

If I were grading you I would give you an F. 

You don't even get a participation trophy.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Compliance in CA is kind of hit and miss.  Some dial in to work and only go out for grocery runs once a week.  Others run to Starbucks twice a day with their mask on their chin.
> 
> Not an expert on NM, but their rise seems a lot smaller than yours.  They may have compliance problems, too.


In a sense you make my point. 

Both NM and CA have stricter guidelines in place vs AZ. They did at the start, they did in the middle...and they do currently. 

And yet their rate is still increasing. AZ after an increase is declining. 

I posted that photo the other day to point out we are still out and about. As a matter of fact a lot of places are rather full. They closed bars, but if a bar serves food they can be open. Doesn't make sense by the way. Gyms are closed. And nightclubs. And for some reason the gov in his wisdom shut down tubing on the river (not sure why that one got tossed in). Movie theaters as well. 

And that is about the complete list. Sucks to be working or owning one of those biz. But either way the VAST majority of all biz in AZ is open. 

Cases rose and now are declining again. Deaths did not correspond even closely to the rise.

The lockdown states seem to just be prolonging the pain and doing nothing really to stop the rise in positives. Those continue it seems.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Honestly, not your best effort.
> 
> Just a matter of note, less than two days after the LATU published its paper, the LAUSD and the SDUSD jointly issued a press release saying that fall would be online only.  Newsom followed a couple days later.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the timing is curious.
> 
> The union is the primary supporter and funder of Prop 15 on the November ballot.  This would eliminate Prop 13 protections for commercial properties which means the assessed value for these properties would be changed to current market value.  This means property taxes for these properties would sky rocket.  This dis-proportionally impacts small business, particularly those on NNN leases or family businesses that have owned their property for many years.  The economic impact to California is unfathomable.


Small businesses and agricultural land are exempt from Prop 15.  

Full info here --









						California Proposition 15, Tax on Commercial and Industrial Properties for Education and Local Government Funding Initiative (2020)
					

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics




					ballotpedia.org


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Thanks for the assist again.  You've basically made my point.  Either we accept a perpetual lockdown or we acknowledge that there's not much we can do to control the Rona beyond some basic measures.  Blue pill or red pill.


You keep saying I am supporting you when I am clearly not.   The facts I have shown rebut your claims.

It must be interesting having a face to face conversation with you.  Do you always talk like a lawyer with a position to defend regardless of the evidence?


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> I started off with the title of the document. It states: The Same Storm, But Different Boats: The Safe & Equitable Conditions For Starting LAUSD in 2020-2021.
> 
> Everything in that document relates to what they want in order to re-open the schools. The first clue is the title of the document FYI.
> 
> ...


Fake news again.  Yes that's the title, but you have to read the whole thing my man.  So you were wrong when you listed the $$$ demands that were part of the November 2020 ballot.  That's 2020 not 2019.  And yes, you're right the Local Support Section is on page 11 and not part of the November 2020 ballot initiative.  

However, if you're being intellectually honest, which you have a hard time doing, you will see that it is only half a page and at the very very end of the article. Also, other than the title, nowhere does the article say you must meet THESE particular demands or else.  In fact 95% of the article is dedicated to health and safety, and safety measures that should be put in place.  Same thing I've been saying and the same thing the LAUSD Superintendent put out today.

You harp when people nitpick Trump.  I've always been about substance my friend.  You trying to make these alleged demands appear as if they are the primary demands of teachers is intellectually dishonest.   It's like contract negotiations and a player asking for green M&M's on the plane.   You are arguing the green M&M's brother.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Small businesses and agricultural land are exempt from Prop 15.
> 
> Full info here --
> 
> ...


It says agriculture exempt. 

Reading the wording on small biz, they are mainly kicking the can down the road to 2025 on those biz properties. 

More importantly it states if passed then the legislature shall create a task force to determine the actual taxes and statutes. 

Basically it is a tax grab.


----------



## watfly (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Small businesses and agricultural land are exempt from Prop 15.
> 
> Full info here --
> 
> ...


Only true to the extent their properties are worth less than $3 mm which is a very low bar for California commercial properties.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> You keep saying I am supporting you when I am clearly not.   The facts I have shown rebut your claims.
> 
> It must be interesting having a face to face conversation with you.  Do you always talk like a lawyer with a position to defend regardless of the evidence?


Do you always see the evidence in front of your eyes, even mouth the words, but fail to comprehend it?  That blue pill is some pretty powerful stuff.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Fake news again.  Yes that's the title, but you have to read the whole thing my man.  So you were wrong when you listed the $$$ demands that were part of the November 2020 ballot.  That's 2020 not 2019.  And yes, you're right the Local Support Section is on page 11 and not part of the November 2020 ballot initiative.
> 
> However, if you're being intellectually honest, which you have a hard time doing, you will see that it is only half a page and at the very very end of the article. Also, other than the title, nowhere does the article say you must meet THESE particular demands or else.  In fact 95% of the article is dedicated to health and safety, and safety measures that should be put in place.  Same thing I've been saying and the same thing the LAUSD Superintendent put out today.
> 
> You harp when people nitpick Trump.  I've always been about substance my friend.  You trying to make these alleged demands appear as if they are the primary demands of teachers is intellectually dishonest.   It's like contract negotiations and a player asking for green M&M's on the plane.   You are arguing the green M&M's brother.


I am being fully intellectually honest. 

Right after that local list...it goes into the conclusion and talks about what they want to re-open. They re-reference the points I talked about. 

Those are their demands.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> I am being fully intellectually honest.
> 
> Right after that local list...it goes into the conclusion and talks about what they want to re-open. They re-reference the points I talked about.
> 
> Those are their demands.


Coward, you just can't do it can you?  And Grace and Hammock, why can't you just say you are for reasonable teacher protections?  You simply can't swallow you're pride to utter those words, why?  

And DH, just to prove my point, not only did the 10 out of the 11 pages in the article dedicate itself to the health and safety precautions, the LAUSD Superintendent just said it's all about the testing!  There, straight from the horses mouth, there's nothing clearer than that.     

None of you have addressed that because it doesn't fit  your narrative.  Sad.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> It says agriculture exempt.
> 
> Reading the wording on small biz, they are mainly kicking the can down the road to 2025 on those biz properties.
> 
> ...


Supporters of Prop 13 (the original Prop 13) should realize that the new assessment on sale of property means that residential property is re-assessed 10 years or so on average and industrial or commercial property at a much longer interval.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Do you always see the evidence in front of your eyes, even mouth the words, but fail to comprehend it?  That blue pill is some pretty powerful stuff.


What did I get wrong?


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 24, 2020)

The Fauci story is getting really funny.  So he claimed that it was because he was dehydrated and drinking (I was too...kept mine on), but pictures show him with the water bottle sealed.  Then another picture emerged showing him walking down to the field with his mask under his nose.  So now he's claiming it's o.k. because he got tested the day before and people are being "mischevious".  But when Trump made this argument (that he's being tested constantly) the media went into him for not setting an example.  I think Trump should wear a mask when outside of the White House, I think Fauci did bad.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Coward, you just can't do it can you?  And Grace and Hammock, why can't you just say you are for reasonable teacher protections?  You simply can't swallow you're pride to utter those words, why?
> 
> And DH, just to prove my point, not only did the 10 out of the 11 pages in the article dedicate itself to the health and safety precautions, the LAUSD Superintendent just said it's all about the testing!  There, straight from the horses mouth, there's nothing clearer than that.
> 
> None of you have addressed that because it doesn't fit  your narrative.  Sad.


Protection for teachers is a no brainer, but you really can’t trust LAUSD or their union.


----------



## Banana Hammock (Jul 24, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Coward, you just can't do it can you?  And Grace and Hammock, why can't you just say you are for reasonable teacher protections?  You simply can't swallow you're pride to utter those words, why?
> 
> And DH, just to prove my point, not only did the 10 out of the 11 pages in the article dedicate itself to the health and safety precautions, the LAUSD Superintendent just said it's all about the testing!  There, straight from the horses mouth, there's nothing clearer than that.
> 
> None of you have addressed that because it doesn't fit  your narrative.  Sad.


The teachers union and teacher safety parted ways longs ago.  I've been there for the past twenty years.  Their current concern for 'teacher safety' is nothing more than political expediency in a time of crisis.  

*“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.”*

― Rahm Emanuel 

I am all for teacher safety, since I live with one.  You are mistaken if you think the union is.


----------



## espola (Jul 24, 2020)

Banana Hammock said:


> The teachers union and teacher safety parted ways longs ago.  I've been there for the past twenty years.  Their current concern for 'teacher safety' is nothing more than political expediency in a time of crisis.
> 
> *“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.”*
> 
> ...


Nonsense.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Now early on countries locked down based on models. Models that turned out to wildly overestimate deaths.

Then as states started opening up in May models showed huge spikes in deaths. @dad4 @espola @EOTL and other referenced the experts and claimed doom was at hand.

"These flawed ICL models begin with an unproven assumption, namely that lockdowns are effective at combating the coronavirus. The models are therefore automatically calibrated to produce a sharp spike in deaths after the removal of lockdowns or any move toward reopening."

We can go back and look at some of these models and see they failed.......AGAIN.









						The Models Were Wildly Wrong about Reopening Too
					

"These flawed models begin with an unproven assumption, namely that lockdowns are effective at combating the coronavirus. The models are therefore automatically calibrated to produce a sharp spike in deaths after the removal of lockdowns or any move toward reopening." ~ Phil Magness




					www.aier.org
				




As a side note...but a rather important one. If the experts who deal with infectious diseases, have lots of experience in modeling etc, get these so wrong. At what point do we start wondering about climate models predicting where we are going to be in 80 yrs? We know a lot more about the human body and disease vs all the millions of variables that go into what makes our climate. Food for thought no?


----------



## Stephen A smith (Jul 24, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Protection for teachers is a no brainer, but you really can’t trust LAUSD or their union.


I agree. Same goes to all the police unions


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 24, 2020)

Stephen A smith said:


> I agree. Same goes to all the police unions


I am unsure why we have public sector unions in the first place.


----------



## dad4 (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Now early on countries locked down based on models. Models that turned out to wildly overestimate deaths.
> 
> Then as states started opening up in May models showed huge spikes in deaths. @dad4 @espola @EOTL and other referenced the experts and claimed doom was at hand.
> 
> ...


Does AIER publish their own models, or just snipe at the people who do?

Or is your argument that government should just make policy without using any models at all?


----------



## Justafan (Jul 24, 2020)

Banana Hammock said:


> The teachers union and teacher safety parted ways longs ago.  I've been there for the past twenty years.  Their current concern for 'teacher safety' is nothing more than political expediency in a time of crisis.
> 
> *“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.”*
> 
> ...


Sorry, you’re off topic. “Parted ways long ago” irrelevant.  “Teacher safety nothing more than political expediency” if you mean they want safety and testing right now, you’re right.  Rahm Immanuel quote - red herring.  Is union for safety, I doesn’t matter what you oro think they are for, that’s irrelevant to the question at hand.

The question is: what do teachers need and want to return to school RIGHT now?

You heard it straight from the horses mouth today.  You won’t accept it because you want to keep harping on you’re point.  You’re trying too hard to be right and you’re not.  Own it.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 24, 2020)

Banana Hammock said:


> View attachment 8263
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What you are saying is that the CEA makes campaign contributions, not that it is “government’s big money donor.”


Desert Hound said:


> Don't play dumb. Education unions overwhelmingly support Dem politicians. As a matter of fact they are some of the biggest donors around.
> 
> View attachment 8265


Teachers are going with the winners. Who can blame them?  Who supports the losers? Big oil? Big pharma? Big finance? The Koch family?  

Sure, the teachers union has government in its pocket. Millions of constituents donating less tjan one family donates to Republicans. Charles Koch alone has thrown $1 billion dollars to Republican causes and you’re complaining about teachers donating $11 million.


----------



## notintheface (Jul 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> (a far-right-wing soundbite edition of the UTLA PDF that was posted)


Okay. Great. Pay the teachers. Let's try that. If it doesn't work out, then we find a different way. But let's try it.


----------



## Real Deal (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Fauci has a wife and three children.


He also threw out the first pitch at the game which is why he was there.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 24, 2020)

espola said:


> He was a guest at the game to throw out the first pitch, so he could sit pretty much anywhere he wanted to.  As for the mask, he has one around his neck and it appears to be down while he is eating or drinking something, undoubtedly provided by his hosts since the concession stands were not open.
> 
> Your ongoing campaign against Fauci is just making you look partisan and bitter.


Lol. He is watching a baseball game with a buddy, doesn't look like he is eating.


----------



## Real Deal (Jul 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Reading comprehension. I had a bacterial infection not Covid. You can’t catch it by walking around next to me. You’d have to perform some truly intimate acts to have a chance to get it and men generally don’t since it’s a girl thing. Wow if this is how bad the fear porn has gotten I feel pretty sorry for you.
> 
> As to fauci unless he’s living in a threesome there’s no way that meets any social distancing requirement and it most certainly does not meet most mask orders (in fact fauci has criticized people for removing masks for conversation). This is the third time he’s been caught doing this. He’s your fallen idol, not mine.


Wait, what?  You went viral and bacterial in the span of a few weeks? Well done. Will you be in Utah soon?
Blessings and safe travels to you.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> What you are saying is that the CEA makes campaign contributions, not that it is “government’s big money donor.”
> 
> 
> Teachers are going with the winners. Who can blame them?  Who supports the losers? Big oil? Big pharma? Big finance? The Koch family?
> ...


Let’s talk about Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, academia, mainstream media and the deep state.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 25, 2020)

Real Deal said:


> Wait, what?  You went viral and bacterial in the span of a few weeks? Well done. Will you be in Utah soon?
> Blessings and safe travels to you.


It’s been more than a third of a year now but yes.  The bacterial infection came much closer to killing me than the Rona thanks to the so called experts.  

The other thing which is buried is that, as I suspected he might, fauci has begun to revise his vaccine time table.  He’s now talking spring and for the first time brought up who gets the vaccine first (children weren’t mentioned).


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 25, 2020)

Real Deal said:


> Wait, what?  You went viral and bacterial in the span of a few weeks? Well done. Will you be in Utah soon?
> Blessings and safe travels to you.


It’s been more than a third of a year now but yes.  The bacterial infection came much closer to killing me than the Rona thanks to the so called experts.  

The other thing which is buried is that, as I suspected he might, fauci has begun to revise his vaccine time table.  He’s now talking spring and for the first time brought up who gets the vaccine first (children weren’t mentioned).


----------



## EOTL (Jul 25, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Let’s talk about Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, academia, mainstream media and the deep state.


Nah, let’s stay on topic and talk about how incredibly stupid @Banana Hammock and @Desert Hound must be to think teachers are “government’s big money donor”. How they think a 300,000 member teachers union that has spent $242 million over 25 years ($806 a person, or $32 a person per year) is bad, but one person alone spending $400 million in two years is fine.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 25, 2020)

Barron Trump’s school plan.  Discuss.





__





						St. Andrew's Episcopal School COVID-19 Information
					

St. Andew's campus is closed due to COVID-19, but school is happening for St. Andrew's students every school day thanks to our distance learning plan. Please consult this page for details on our distance learning plan.




					www.saes.org


----------



## dad4 (Jul 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Barron Trump’s school plan.  Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope.  Kids are off limits.


----------



## nononono (Jul 25, 2020)

oh canada said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/unleash-creative-school-staff-on-our-worst-school-year-ever/2020/07/17/53a44734-c6a7-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200723&instance_id=20544&nl=the-morning&regi_id=69316076&segment_id=34125&te=1&user_id=213b6a7bba70839c917645a1d2cd6ae1
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*I truly sense the frustration .....

What I want to know is if the school is cancelling in room classes, then why are the staff and teachers 
being paid their regular salary....!!!
The money is NOT going to be there very shortly....no matter what anyone says.....!

Thousands upon thousands of small businesses ( Mainly Restaurants ) are closing to never open again....
That revenue ( Taxes/Fees/Registrations ) will never go to Sacramento ( California is the focus here ) so
the pending financial shortfall is going to be astronomical. The Governor and the California Legislature
will never get that money from the Federal Government because that is a State issue...so basically " Our "
Governor has hamstrung California due to his and other DEMOCRATS policy differences with the President.... 

This pissing contest is a lose lose for ALL the parents of school age students, from preschool to College....!

The simplest way to solve this in my opinion is to put the kids back in school...a plexiglass divider is
installed between the students and the ( Oh so Vulnerable Teachers according to their " UNION " ) teachers..
Ceiling to Floor - Wall to Wall...masks worn by all....
Temps taken at entrance to school ....if temps are truly an indicator..
NO PHYSICAL INTERACTION BETWEEN STAFF AND STUDENTS !
The students come in the rear door, the teacher comes in the front door ( Almost ALL classrooms have two
access doors ) limit contact until this manufactured crisis is solved on Nov 4th 2020....

It really is that easy.....!

Would be a huge trust issue between the students and the teachers....but the bottom line is this is when 
they have GOT to pack in the knowledge, and they need the student to student interaction....*


----------



## EOTL (Jul 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Nah, let’s stay on topic and talk about how incredibly stupid @Banana Hammock and @Desert Hound must be to think teachers are “government’s big money donor”. How they think a 300,000 member teachers union that has spent $242 million over 25 years ($806 a person, or $32 a person per year) is bad, but one person alone spending $400 million in two years is fine.


This series of posts really highlights how un-American and un-Democratic the Republican party has become. They look at 300,000 people each donating $32 in a year on average as a threat to the American way of life, although the sum of all those donations on behalf of 300,000 people is 5% of what Charles Koch alone donated in a single year.


----------



## nononono (Jul 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This series of posts really highlights how un-American and un-Democratic the Republican party has become. They look at 300,000 people each donating $32 in a year on average as a threat to the American way of life, although the sum of all those donations on behalf of 300,000 people is 5% of what Charles Koch alone donated in a single year.



*Keep up the LIES, because when reality hits you like a freight train you will be crying like a 
little bitch wondering what happened....!*


----------



## MacDre (Jul 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Nope.  Kids are off limits.


Not kids.  The school policy.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> It’s been more than a third of a year now but yes.  The bacterial infection came much closer to killing me than the Rona thanks to the so called experts.
> 
> The other thing which is buried is that, as I suspected he might, fauci has begun to revise his vaccine time table.  He’s now talking spring and for the first time brought up who gets the vaccine first (children weren’t mentioned).


They learn more about the virus everyday and one thing they know is it affects people differently, why, they don't know yet. Dr. Fauci is a legend in the world of viral infection science. Who are you?


----------



## dad4 (Jul 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Not kids.  The school policy.


Children of politicians deserve some privacy.  

I find it interesting that you chose that school policy solely because it is so interesting and well researched.  Perhaps the writing is so impressive that it reminds you of Baron Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton himself.  Or maybe you wanted to bring the kid's school into it to make some point about Trump.

Trump is self mocking.  You can leave the school out of it, and I guarantee you won't lack for material.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 25, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They learn more about the virus everyday and one thing they know is it affects people differently, why, they don't know yet. Dr. Fauci is a legend in the world of viral infection science. Who are you?


Hey I don't doubt Fauci is a legend and knows what he is doing in the world of viral infection science.  But that doesn't mean he's a competent decision maker.  It doesn't mean he's good at reading people or situations.  He's great within his knowledge base but doesn't know much about things outside of it.  He doesn't know economics.  He doesn't know education.  He's not looking at the suicides, mental illness, ODs, alcoholism that results from his recommendations.  He's also not being tested, so he'll go the most conservative route possible (hence why the UK White Paper suggests overreliance on experts and a remedy by creating a market of experts as well as a devil's advocate to argue against).  He's a horrible policy maker, and his beach chair incident illustrates he's an even worse sales person, and he frankly seems enamored by his moment in the sun and his arrogance (which makes him prone to lie to the pleb) serves to undermine his message.

2 examples of the dangers of deferring to experts: 1. the doctors (including 1 very high reputable guy in his field) told me to wait and see what happened with an antibiotic....that I hadn't given it a lot of time....I knew something was very wrong and argued and it wound up saving my life with a recent infection.  2. Our school reopening committee staffed the working group with a bunch of doctors and educators that built an elaborated scheme to make it "safe" to reopen....but the week before the governor's announcement it was already falling apart like a house of cards....they needed a lawyer on the committee....lawyers are trained to see everything wrong with something (not to find solutions)....they needed a lawyer on the committee to take pot shots at their ideas and tell them what was wrong with it, because they couldn't see their noses in front of their faces. 

I'm sure Fauci's a good guy and knows his field well.  He is unsuited though to make these decisions, and the stress is making his personality flaws show (the same way they did Trump).  Could I have done better?  Don't know...you don't know until you are in that moment....I'll tell you this though I got a lot more right than he did (everything from seeing the lockdowns months out, to timing the stock market the day it dived, to the pattern in Socal, the school fall closures, and even the IFR down to a .1%).


----------



## Justafan (Jul 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Children of politicians deserve some privacy.
> 
> I find it interesting that you chose that school policy solely because it is so interesting and well researched.  Perhaps the writing is so impressive that it reminds you of Baron Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton himself.  Or maybe you wanted to bring the kid's school into it to make some point about Trump.
> 
> Trump is self mocking.  You can leave the school out of it, and I guarantee you won't lack for material.


Dre’s post has nothing to do with targeting the kid.  It just illustrates that despite Trump’s push to get schools open, even one in which he may have personal influence, it is not as easy as it seems.  I think you are overreacting.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 25, 2020)

Just stop paying them if they aren't at school.
I dont get paid if I dont show up.
See how long they last.
Simple.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Nah, let’s stay on topic and talk about how incredibly stupid @Banana Hammock and @Desert Hound must be to think teachers are “government’s big money donor”. How they think a 300,000 member teachers union that has spent $242 million over 25 years ($806 a person, or $32 a person per year) is bad, but one person alone spending $400 million in two years is fine.


You don’t like the law then change it.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 25, 2020)

nononono said:


> *Keep up the LIES, because when reality hits you like a freight train you will be crying like a
> little bitch wondering what happened....!*


Look at your post, you’re already whining like a little bitch.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 25, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Just stop paying them if they aren't at school.
> I dont get paid if I dont show up.
> See how long they last.
> Simple.


2 F’n morons.  They’ll still be working and teaching, and believe it or not, it’s harder to teach remotely.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 25, 2020)

Justafan said:


> 2 F’n morons.  They’ll still be working and teaching, and believe it or not, it’s harder to teach remotely.


Bullshit.


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Bullshit.


What would you know about it?


----------



## espola (Jul 25, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You don’t like the law then change it.


The campaign finance law was changed significantly and then eviscerated by SCOTUS in the Citizens United case.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 25, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Just stop paying them if they aren't at school.
> I dont get paid if I dont show up.
> See how long they last.
> Simple.


You really aren't that stupid, are you?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 25, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Bullshit.


I guess you really are.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 26, 2020)

espola said:


> What would you know about it?


How would you feel about your mechanic "remotely" fixing your car?
More importantly, how would you feel paying full boat for it?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 26, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> How would you feel about your mechanic "remotely" fixing your car?
> More importantly, how would you feel paying full boat for it?


The more they get paid the more the union gets paid.


----------



## espola (Jul 26, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> How would you feel about your mechanic "remotely" fixing your car?
> More importantly, how would you feel paying full boat for it?


non sequitur


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 26, 2020)

espola said:


> non sequitur


osculum me asinum


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 26, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> The more they get paid the more the union gets paid.


Really? Explain how that works?


----------



## nononono (Jul 26, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Look at your post, you’re already whining like a little bitch.


*Nope.....I use an open Forum like it should be used.*
*
Freedom of Speech includes freedom to use it....

If you don't like my dialogue and the TRUTH, then 
don't " Engage " ....if you want to engage in a topic 
that is being misconstrued and support the LIES...
Then be prepared for a very STRONG rebuttal that
includes the TRUTH.....

You and yours want to change the rules because YOU
are losing your ass....Doesn't work like that in the REAL*
*WORLD......Grow a Pair ya sniveling Bitch....! *


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 26, 2020)

espola said:


> non sequitur


The plumber trying to be clever, lol!


----------



## nononono (Jul 26, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The plumber trying to be clever, lol!



*DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 26, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> The plumber trying to be clever, lol!


If you didnt have deception, you'd have nothing at all.
-clever-


----------



## Justafan (Jul 26, 2020)

nononono said:


> *DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*


Damn, you got me there!


----------



## Justafan (Jul 26, 2020)

nononono said:


> *Nope.....I use an open Forum like it should be used.*
> 
> *Freedom of Speech includes freedom to use it....
> 
> ...


You’re still whining like a little bitch.  Trump is wearing a mask.  YOU are getting your ass kicked.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 26, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> How would you feel about your mechanic "remotely" fixing your car?
> More importantly, how would you feel paying full boat for it?


Ever heard of the Khan academy online.  Sheriff Joe, you disappointed me.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 27, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Ever heard of the Khan academy online.  Sheriff Joe, you disappointed me.


What did I do?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 27, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What did I do?


Whats on third, who's on second.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 27, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Does AIER publish their own models, or just snipe at the people who do?
> 
> Or is your argument that government should just make policy without using any models at all?


My argument is that the "experts" have time and time proven to be wrong as it relates to their models. 

To imply that they are "sniping" is BS by the way. Our politicians created policies based on these faulty models. Not just a bit wrong, but orders of magnitude wrong. To point out how wrong they were is doing the public a service.

You for instance have been one of the people believing the policies and have/had been for instance predicting doom on GA, etc based on them opening because you looked at the models. 

We cannot just go...eh...ok so the models were wrong. The models were the foundation of a lot of bad policies enacted.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 27, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Ever heard of the Khan academy online. Sheriff Joe, you disappointed me.


Funny you mention that. They could probably put together a better online curriculum for far less vs the idiots running the LA teachers union could.


----------



## dad4 (Jul 27, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> My argument is that the "experts" have time and time proven to be wrong as it relates to their models.
> 
> To imply that they are "sniping" is BS by the way. Our politicians created policies based on these faulty models. Not just a bit wrong, but orders of magnitude wrong. To point out how wrong they were is doing the public a service.
> 
> ...


My false prediction for GA was that they were competent.  I underestimated their cases, not over.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 27, 2020)

"Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they experience a downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period before proceeding to a phased opening. In the state-specific view of the graph, this two-week period is highlighted in orange if cases are trending upward, or green if they are trending down.
In [this Johns Hopkins] visualization, states that appear in shades of orange have experienced a growth in new cases over the past two weeks. States that appear in shades of green have seen declines in cases over the same period of time. The shade of the colors indicates the size of each state’s growth or decline in new cases; the darker the shade, the bigger the change."
"Green" States in with a declining 14-day trend of new cases include, among others, Texas, Florida, Arizona and (most recently) California.
Nearly all Western states except Oklahoma are trending flat or down, as well as most of the South except Louisiana and Mississippi.  In the East, only Rhode Island has a declining trend of new COVID-19 cases.
If this sounds like the exact opposite of what you've been hearing from the news, don't blame the facts."


----------



## dad4 (Jul 27, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> "Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they experience a downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period before proceeding to a phased opening. In the state-specific view of the graph, this two-week period is highlighted in orange if cases are trending upward, or green if they are trending down.
> In [this Johns Hopkins] visualization, states that appear in shades of orange have experienced a growth in new cases over the past two weeks. States that appear in shades of green have seen declines in cases over the same period of time. The shade of the colors indicates the size of each state’s growth or decline in new cases; the darker the shade, the bigger the change."
> "Green" States in with a declining 14-day trend of new cases include, among others, Texas, Florida, Arizona and (most recently) California.
> Nearly all Western states except Oklahoma are trending flat or down, as well as most of the South except Louisiana and Mississippi.  In the East, only Rhode Island has a declining trend of new COVID-19 cases.
> ...


Are you the same Desert Hound who said that we shouldn’t look at cases, but we should only look at deaths?

Yes, now that AZ has infected 10-20% percent of their population, numbers are going down.  Deaths should fall within 3 weeks, by which time your policies will have killed off four or five thousand Arizona residents and the people on ventilators can start to come out of their medically-induced comas.

But at least you didn’t have to eat take out pizza instead of dine-in.  You really dodged a bullet there.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 27, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Are you the same Desert Hound who said that we shouldn’t look at cases, but we should only look at deaths?


Yep. I have said repeatedly deaths are the key metric.

However you and the press and many others have focused on positives...correct. And specifically many of the above states that have been far more open vs your preferred examples are now seeing a decline in positives. Doesn't that again break your and the press narrative?

Now...this is interesting. I have been arguing we need to re-open. If we close, then open...see a rise, then shut down...it will be an endless loop. 

I believe you and others have talked about how Europe got it right...
I argued that once they re-open they are going to start to see a rise again. The virus doesn't magically disappear. We may as well deal with that fact and move on. 

"WAIT, I WAS TOLD THAT #CORONAVIRUS WAS ONLY STILL A THING IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE #ORANGEMANBAD: France, Spain, Germany Suddenly Facing New Coronavirus Surge. It’s looking like it’s going to do what every pandemic in human history has done, which is burn through the susceptible population until it burns out."









						France, Spain, Germany Suddenly Facing New Coronavirus Surge
					

New virus cases are inching up in nations that previously managed to control their outbreaks.




					www.forbes.com


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## nononono (Jul 27, 2020)

Justafan said:


> You’re still whining like a little bitch.  Trump is wearing a mask.  YOU are getting your ass kicked.



*Projecting again......*
*
You're supposed to insert it with the rounded end up...not sideways...!
*
*No off you go to the Bano to correct that niggling problem you created.*


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## nononono (Jul 27, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Are you the same Desert Hound who said that we shouldn’t look at cases, but we should only look at deaths?
> 
> Yes, now that AZ has infected 10-20% percent of their population, numbers are going down.  Deaths should fall within 3 weeks, by which time your policies will have killed off four or five thousand Arizona residents and the people on ventilators can start to come out of their medically-induced comas.
> 
> But at least you didn’t have to eat take out pizza instead of dine-in.  You really dodged a bullet there.


*The " Auto " accident COVID-19 deaths are dropping like rocks since the 
CDC doesn't control the numbers.*


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## Desert Hound (Jul 29, 2020)

Maybe we actually are better off not having kids sit in class learning from the likes of @Justafan 

I have a feeling the people complaining about this flag all had an excellent public school education.









						Flag removed from Saint Johns bed and breakfast over Confederate confusion
					

Nordic Pineapple Inn removes Norwegian flag after dozens of people confuse it for the Confederate flag




					www.wilx.com


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 29, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Maybe we actually are better off not having kids sit in class learning from the likes of @Justafan
> 
> I have a feeling the people complaining about this flag all had an excellent public school education.
> 
> ...


The psychosis is spreading like wildfire.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 29, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Yep. I have said repeatedly deaths are the key metric.
> 
> However you and the press and many others have focused on positives...correct. And specifically many of the above states that have been far more open vs your preferred examples are now seeing a decline in positives. Doesn't that again break your and the press narrative?
> 
> ...


This is exactly right.


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## Desert Hound (Jul 30, 2020)

Majority of people say they won’t take COVID-19 vaccine within first year
					

28% said they won’t opt for the vaccine at all.




					nypost.com


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## Desert Hound (Jul 30, 2020)

So no classes, but you can drop your kids off at school anyway? And get to pay $180 per week?









						Cali School District Announces They Will Remain Closed But Will Be Open For ‘Daycare’…This Only Makes Sense In California | News Thud
					

Oh lord! This only makes sense in California… A South Pasadena, California school district has announced that class will only be online instruction. However, students up to the 8th grad can go to “extended daycare” that will be eight hours a day. During the extended day held at THE SCHOOL,…




					newsthud.com


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## dad4 (Jul 30, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Majority of people say they won’t take COVID-19 vaccine within first year
> 
> 
> 28% said they won’t opt for the vaccine at all.
> ...


This is good news for me.  I am happy to move up in line while anti-vax fools give me their spot.

Two months later, when the news reports that the vaccine is still just as safe as it was during trials, there will be enough shots to go around.


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## Hüsker Dü (Jul 30, 2020)

dad4 said:


> This is good news for me.  I am happy to move up in line while anti-vax fools give me their spot.
> 
> Two months later, when the news reports that the vaccine is still just as safe as it was during trials, there will be enough shots to go around.


These tabloid readers, these conspiracy believers, these QAnon peddlers are afraid of everything.


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## nononono (Jul 30, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> The psychosis is spreading like wildfire.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> So no classes, but you can drop your kids off at school anyway? And get to pay $180 per week?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good God, I'm so glad my kids are out of school.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2020)

dad4 said:


> This is good news for me.  I am happy to move up in line while anti-vax fools give me their spot.
> 
> Two months later, when the news reports that the vaccine is still just as safe as it was during trials, there will be enough shots to go around.


What about Hydroxychloroquine?( sp?) ...is that safe after 60 years of testing?
LMAO.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 30, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> These tabloid readers, these conspiracy believers, these QAnon peddlers are afraid of everything.


Yeah.
I'm all masked up and hiding under my bed.


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## espola (Jul 30, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> What about Hydroxychloroquine?( sp?) ...is that safe after 60 years of testing?
> LMAO.


It was developed as an artificial enhancement of the natural malaria drug quinine, the "tonic" in a gin and tonic.  For malaria, HCQ's known side effect risks are known and in balance are better than the risks of untreated malaria.

HCQ does not have a beneficial use against covid-19 that overweigh those risks.

Safe?  Judge for yourself --









						Hydroxychloroquine Uses, Dosage & Side Effects - Drugs.com
					

Hydroxychloroquine is a quinoline drug used to treat or prevent malaria. It's also used to treat symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis, discoid and systemic lupus erythematosus.




					www.drugs.com


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## nononono (Jul 30, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Good God, I'm so glad my kids are out of school.



*F@#k The Governor and the Teachers Union....!*


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## nononono (Jul 30, 2020)

espola said:


> It was developed as an artificial enhancement of the natural malaria drug quinine, the "tonic" in a gin and tonic.  For malaria, HCQ's known side effect risks are known and in balance are better than the risks of untreated malaria.
> 
> HCQ does not have a beneficial use against covid-19 that overweigh those risks.
> 
> ...



*LIAR LIAR LIAR.......*

*HQC coupled with the other two works....!


The African Doctor has over 350 " Cured " patients....!

Can't  ban the TRUTH forever...!*


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## Hüsker Dü (Jul 31, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Yeah.
> I'm all masked up and hiding under my bed.


Ah yes Mr all or nothing afraid of anything in between as thought might be involved. Safer to just keep things black and white.


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## Hüsker Dü (Jul 31, 2020)

nononono said:


> *LIAR LIAR LIAR.......
> 
> HQC coupled with the other two works....!
> 
> ...


Who told you that, her?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 31, 2020)

espola said:


> It was developed as an artificial enhancement of the natural malaria drug quinine, the "tonic" in a gin and tonic.  For malaria, HCQ's known side effect risks are known and in balance are better than the risks of untreated malaria.
> 
> HCQ does not have a beneficial use against covid-19 that overweigh those risks.
> 
> ...











						Using Hydroxychloroquine and Other Drugs to Fight Pandemic
					

Professor Harvey Risch, M.D., Ph.D., is a researcher at the Yale School of Public Health with a specialty in cancer etiology, prevention and early diagnosis,




					medicine.yale.edu


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## espola (Jul 31, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Using Hydroxychloroquine and Other Drugs to Fight Pandemic
> 
> 
> Professor Harvey Risch, M.D., Ph.D., is a researcher at the Yale School of Public Health with a specialty in cancer etiology, prevention and early diagnosis,
> ...


Don't you read the things you post?  That is an interview published by the PR department at Yale Medical, discussing an opinion article Dr. Risch submitted for publication without peer review.  The submitted article is based on no original research, but merely summarizes the results of other studies, none of which claim that HCQ alone or in combination with other chemicals is a cure, although there may be some statistically weak beneficial effect.

An abstract of the submitted article with a link to a PDF of the complete article is here --









						Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk COVID-19 Patients That Should Be Ramped Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis
					

Abstract. More than 1.6 million Americans have been infected with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), and more than 10 times that numb




					academic.oup.com
				




Any doctor who believes HCQ plus whatever will be of benefit to a patient already has an avenue open to him - just declare the patient to be suffering from malaria or arthritis, and hope his malpractice insurance doesn't get canceled.

The old family doctor down the street from where I grew up had a standard response for someone calling in the middle of the night with an unspecified illness - "Take two aspirin and I'll come out in the morning and give you a shot."  Aspirin and penicillin cured almost everything then, and there were few known adverse side-effects.


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## Lion Eyes (Jul 31, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Ah yes Mr all or nothing afraid of anything in between as thought might be involved. Safer to just keep things black and white.


Haaaa.............the above from the kitchens original chicken little.
Daffy, how many times have you been told 'the sky is not falling"?


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## Desert Hound (Jul 31, 2020)

dad4 said:


> This is good news for me.  I am happy to move up in line while anti-vax fools give me their spot.
> 
> Two months later, when the news reports that the vaccine is still just as safe as it was during trials, there will be enough shots to go around.


Seems the public in general is skeptical.

By the way you never responded. How long will you wait? 









						Max Minute: CBS News Poll Says 70% Of Americans Would Wait To Get COVID-19 Vaccine, Or Wouldn't Get One At All
					

A new CBS News poll says 70% of Americans would wait to get a COVID-19 vaccine or wouldn't get one at all. CBS2's Dr. Max Gomez provides an update about how vaccine research is progressing.




					newyork.cbslocal.com


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 31, 2020)

Worth a read.









						Don’t Get Too Excited About a Coronavirus Vaccine. | Human Events
					

Properly testing a vaccine is a difficult process—and the FDA knows it.




					humanevents.com


----------



## nononono (Jul 31, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Who told you that, her?


*That information has been out for at least six months, of course *
*you should consult with whomever is doing your research....
Because it " Shirley " isn't YOU...!

You Criminal Democrats do not want a cure, just like you Criminal 
Democrats never wanted to FREE the enslaved humans that your
POLITICAL ANCESTORS financially benefited from....and your
POLITICAL ANCESTORS created a TERRORIST OPERATION called
the KLU KLUX KLAN to KILL Freed humans and the Republicans that
freed them....Your Democrat President Woodrow Wilson reversed
all the Freedoms/Integration advancements to keep a Freed group
of humans from enjoying FREEDOM..!
*
*350 + patients don't lie and they didn't die...!
And a " Woman " Doctor from Africa let the TRUTH fly !*


----------



## dad4 (Jul 31, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Seems the public in general is skeptical.
> 
> By the way you never responded. How long will you wait?
> 
> ...


How long to wait depends on what it is. 

Me?  I’ll keep to zoom, distanced outdoor masked gatherings, and family exercise until the vaccine is out or cases drop below one new daily case per 100K residents.  Not so much fear as wanting to do my part.  I don’t want to add to the virus by going out to Starbucks every day.

Country?  Even with the current case loads, I think most businesses can open at lower capacity, provided we have good distance, masks, and ventilation.

Indoor dining, bars, and stadiums?  These should have to wait for a vaccine or very low case numbers.

Schools?  Open elementary in small stable groups.  Good MS and HS students can handle zoom just fine.  Add in some outdoor intramural sports and it sounds ok.  I have no idea what to do with slacker MS and HS students.  Probably need schools in small groups and masks for the wardens teachers.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 31, 2020)

espola said:


> It was developed as an artificial enhancement of the natural malaria drug quinine, the "tonic" in a gin and tonic.  For malaria, HCQ's known side effect risks are known and in balance are better than the risks of untreated malaria.
> 
> HCQ does not have a beneficial use against covid-19 that overweigh those risks.
> 
> ...


Well, multiple physicians are saying it has multiple benefits.  So who knows more... you or a doctor?  Judge for yourself.


----------



## nononono (Jul 31, 2020)

*HCQ Works....!!!*

*DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS

CRIMINALS DO NOT WANT SOLUTIONS...!*


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 31, 2020)

dad4 said:


> How long to wait depends on what it is.
> 
> Me?  I’ll keep to zoom, distanced outdoor masked gatherings, and family exercise until the vaccine is out or cases drop below one new daily case per 100K residents.  Not so much fear as wanting to do my part.  I don’t want to add to the virus by going out to Starbucks every day.
> 
> ...


Well I disagree with a fair amount there. But thanks for answering!


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 31, 2020)

The Who told us the Kids Are Alright.

Not in CA.

"20 percent of the total K-12 population — didn’t have the technology necessary to participate in distance learning.

To solve that problem, California needs to procure over 700,000 computers and more than 300,000 WiFi hot spots, according to the most recent results from the California Department of Education’s school district survey."

How many computers have they gotten so far?

"73,065 computers"



			https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article244418057.html


----------



## nononono (Jul 31, 2020)

*DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*

*CRIMINALS DO NOT WANT AN EDUCATED POPULACE...!*


----------

