# Women's CONCACAF World Cup Qualifying



## kickingandscreaming (Jul 7, 2022)

Mexico's women may not qualify for the World Cup. If they lose or tie against the US, they are out. Even if they beat the US, if Haiti and Jamaica tie, Mexico will finish 4th in the group and not qualify. Not having scored a goal against Jamaica and Haiti also doesn't set them up well for a tiebreaker. I can't find the tiebreaker but if it's head-to-head, they are out already. They lost to the only two teams they could tie for 3rd to qualify for the intercontinental playoff.


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## algomez619 (Jul 8, 2022)

Total failure from Mexico.  The coach decided to shuffle players around out of their natural positions and leave out better players from the roster such as Karina Rodriguez (center back @ Washington Spirit).  Adding to their woes, Jamaica and Haiti have grown tremendously which I think is good for CONCACAF.  It will take a miracle on Monday vs USA but I don't see it happening.  Overall, Mexico is in a funk with their boys U20 not qualifying for the WC either and their men's National team playing like crap.  I hope they closely analyze their entire federation and figure it out.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 8, 2022)

algomez619 said:


> Total failure from Mexico.  The coach decided to shuffle players around out of their natural positions and leave out better players from the roster such as Karina Rodriguez (center back @ Washington Spirit).  Adding to their woes, Jamaica and Haiti have grown tremendously which I think is good for CONCACAF.  It will take a miracle on Monday vs USA but I don't see it happening.  Overall, Mexico is in a funk with their boys U20 not qualifying for the WC either and their men's National team playing like crap.  I hope they closely analyze their entire federation and figure it out.


Do you believe the shuffling was motivated by the desired style of play that the coach favors? I didn't see either of their losses but would be interested in the xG for each game. They certainly dominated possession. Just wondering if they were a bit unlucky in the finishing. Of course, giving up 3 goals as they did against Haiti is never a recipe for a win.


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## paytoplay (Jul 15, 2022)

I’ve been watching USWNT in this tournament. Not impressed with the up and coming younger players and not impressed with this coach or style of play. As norcaldad said in another thread, other countries programs, especially Europe, once they get going are going to pass us by. Squeaking out wins against this lowly concacaf competition is one thing. I know these youngsters are getting the bulk of playing time, still I wonder is this the best we can do? Richest and most populous soccer country ever with our entrenched and vaunted pay to play development system?! Chickens are going to come home to roost.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 15, 2022)

We just did a camp with Benfica (Portuguese pro team) + they just started running pro womens teams. The coaches all love that women are getting a chance to play high level soccer.

The USWNT are going to start have a hard time keeping up once the pro teams go all on womens.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 15, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> I’ve been watching USWNT in this tournament. Not impressed with the up and coming younger players and not impressed with this coach or style of play. As norcaldad said in another thread, other countries programs, especially Europe, once they get going are going to pass us by. Squeaking out wins against this lowly concacaf competition is one thing. I know these youngsters are getting the bulk of playing time, still I wonder is this the best we can do? Richest and most populous soccer country ever with our entrenched and vaunted pay to play development system?! Chickens are going to come home to roost.


I think the women's side is going to suffer the same things the mens side does at some point.  Our system is just inherently broken. I think it's a combination of:

- We don't have enough coaches that teach futbol as opposed to soccer. 
- Parents don't understand what good futbol is and thus don't demand it.
- We really don't have a futbol culture in the US and multisport is out of control (e.g., travel baseball, travel basketball, etc...all with the same kid)
-"win-now" trumps development.  ECNL/GA starts way too early -- which derides development.
- Coaches, as a result of "win-now" identify talent differently than they would in Europe -- bigger, faster, stronger is the mantra and we're in a spin cycle with that. 

Just go watch any ECNL girl's match on youtube and you will see it clear as day.  I've seen a very small handful on both the boys and girls side that are well coached.  Even if a coach is good they're going to succumb to the need to focus on "win-now", otherwise they might lose their job.  

There are a ton of great coaches on the Twittersphere that look like they're trying to promote the right ideas, but it's just not ubiquitous.  Oddly enough I think the CTE/concussion concerns are directly related to all of this.  Watch a girls game and you see players running through each other -- it's not just a header problem.  

I don't know how to fix this problem.  Would love to hear thoughts from coaches on this forum.


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## crush (Jul 15, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I don't know how to fix this problem.  Would love to hear thoughts from coaches on this forum.


I know how to fix it but I'm not a coach. That's part of the problem. These top guys make $$$ telling all females that play soccer that they are Elite players no matter what because their in the Elite league and dad says so. It's not true. We need Promotion and Relegation asap. California needs to set up a League like EPL asap. Travel soccer is stupid and expensive and their is only on reason why. I bet you $1 people would flock here to play.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 15, 2022)

I have


NorCalDad said:


> I think the women's side is going to suffer the same things the mens side does at some point.  Our system is just inherently broken. I think it's a combination of:
> 
> - We don't have enough coaches that teach futbol as opposed to soccer.
> - Parents don't understand what good futbol is and thus don't demand it.
> ...


 Good points that have been brought up over the last 10 years I’ve been on here, especially with the DA vs ECNL debate. I have my opinions on this matter, but I am on vacation. Will backtrack later.


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## Brav520 (Jul 16, 2022)

Women will be fine 

If the expectation is that the US will the undisputed #1 team in the world , then yeah I think people will be disappointed

We will be one of the very few faves of every Olympic and World Cup we play in ( think similar to Brazil men) I don’t see that changing any time soon

Think about whatever birth year your daughter is playing in . We can always identify the 5-10 truly special players , realistically 1 of those girls will be a consistent national team player , and that 1 girl is a truly special player , a unicorn so to speak


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## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Women will be fine
> 
> If the expectation is that the US will the undisputed #1 team in the world , then yeah I think people will be disappointed
> 
> ...


Always will have 5-10 truly special players who submit to their way of life and pay to play with their rules of entry. If winning is all that matters, we will always be in contention. However, a high % of females are locked out because of many reasons and I think we know what it takes to bow at the alter of those who mandate the rules.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Women will be fine
> 
> If the expectation is that the US will the undisputed #1 team in the world , then yeah I think people will be disappointed
> 
> ...


I have a bleaker outlook.  I think the women's side will drop to the same level as men's side in about 10 years.  I mean still one of the top 15 FIFA teams.  But I think you will also see the European women's leagues surpass NWSL, as all top players will head there.  I think issue has less to do with the individual player and more to do with the style of play.  Most girls in the US aren't getting proper instruction in that regard (a few are for sure).  The one thing I don't have insight into is what soccer culture is like for girls in Europe.  Are girls going outside and playing pickup?  Is it part of their lives apart from training/games?  That culture part is ALWAYS something the US will struggle with for both men and women.


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## crush (Jul 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I have a bleaker outlook.  I think the women's side will drop to the same level as men's side in about 10 years.  I mean still one of the top 15 FIFA teams.  But I think you will also see the European women's leagues surpass NWSL, as all top players will head there.  I think issue has less to do with the individual player and more to do with the style of play.  Most girls in the US aren't getting proper instruction in that regard (a few are for sure).  The one thing I don't have insight into is what soccer culture is like for girls in Europe.  Are girls going outside and playing pickup?  Is it part of their lives apart from training/games?  That culture part is ALWAYS something the US will struggle with for both men and women.


Looks like my dd is the first one to test the waters over the seas. If things pan out well for her, I will 100% share the good news. I told her 100% for whatever reason, she can home, no questions asked. I would advise all dads on here to give your dd the same option if they don't like college soccer. I know one dad told his dd she" better finish what she started because we don't quit in our family."  No quit in winning, right? Horrible advice but to each his own.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 16, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> We just did a camp with Benfica (Portuguese pro team) + they just started running pro womens teams. The coaches all love that women are getting a chance to play high level soccer.
> 
> The USWNT are going to start have a hard time keeping up once the pro teams go all on womens.


It was more or less inevitable, right? Historically, the US Women's team's primary advantage has been relatively high cultural support for girls playing - at all. More and more countries now match that level of support. As this advantage wanes, training will matter more. I'd also say the women's side has always suffered the same thing, or worse, than the men's side in terms of training. In our experience, we had multiple excellent coaches move to the boys side for better opportunities.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 16, 2022)

kickingandscreaming said:


> It was more or less inevitable, right? Historically, the US Women's team's primary advantage has been relatively high cultural support for girls playing - at all. More and more countries now match that level of support. As this advantage wanes, training will matter more. I'd also say the women's side has always suffered the same thing, or worse, than the men's side in terms of training. In our experience, we had multiple excellent coaches move to the boys side for better opportunities.


That's what I see as well + it's already happening on the mens side. (MLS Next + Pro Youth teams) Soon soccer for both men and women will be like baseball or hockey with minor leagues that feed into pro teams.

College soccer just cant compete with pro teams and pool players that focus on playing a sport 24/7 + nothing else.

Where things will get interesting is when colleges start paying players vs giving scholarships. When this happens wheres the line between collegiate and pro?


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> - We really don't have a futbol culture in the US


I think this drives most of the other things we discuss that keeps the US from reaching its potential at the National Team level.

I'd be interested how often many high level girls go out and play small sided games at the park with other high quality players and how many opportunities there are to do this. Anecdotally, pickup games I've seen in my area are driven primarily by Hispanic and European men. The number of girls I see out there are few and far between. Regardless of how good the girls' training is, they need more touches on the ball in an unstructured environment. They need to play with players that are better than them and not as good as they are without a coach or parent around.

I have an impression (not backed up by any research I did) that women's soccer is underrepresented in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods compared to men's soccer and compared to women's basketball. If so, this is a missed opportunity to develop elite players.


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## Yak (Jul 16, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> We will be one of the very few faves of every Olympic and World Cup we play in ( think similar to Brazil men) I don’t see that changing any time soon


Brazil hasn't won a World Cup in 20 years.


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## Brav520 (Jul 16, 2022)

Yak said:


> Brazil hasn't won a World Cup in 20 years.


Yes , clearly a sign of a declining nation in terms of football


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## paytoplay (Jul 16, 2022)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I think this drives most of the other things we discuss that keeps the US from reaching its potential at the National Team level.
> 
> I'd be interested how often many high level girls go out and play small sided games at the park with other high quality players and how many opportunities there are to do this. Anecdotally, pickup games I've seen in my area are driven primarily by Hispanic and European men. The number of girls I see out there are few and far between. Regardless of how good the girls' training is, they need more touches on the ball in an unstructured environment. They need to play with players that are better than them and not as good as they are without a coach or parent around.
> 
> I have an impression (not backed up by any research I did) that women's soccer is underrepresented in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods compared to men's soccer and compared to women's basketball. If so, this is a missed opportunity to develop elite players.


Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 16, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.


This begs the question, can a soccer culture be created? To be fair all sports in the US are essentially pay to play. The club baseball orgs are even worse than soccer. We're seeing a parallel there with players from Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Central America where surely it's more organic. I personally think parents have gone nuts with multisport. There's this whole angst around specializing too early, which I think is a bunch of hogwash. My kids are multisport, they're just not multisport-club players. They do all kinds of camps and play all kinds of sports at school, but their focus is soccer (I'd be totally fine if they wanted to focus on a different sport). It also doesn't help that parents these days (myself included) are much more helicopter-like. But that's directly correlated with the fact that kids would literally just hang out and eff around on TikTok if left to their own devices (something much more rampant with girls from my view). 

I do think the mens world cup will spark some interest....whenever the SF Giants do well youth baseball booms in the bay area.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 16, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.





NorCalDad said:


> This begs the question, can a soccer culture be created? To be fair all sports in the US are essentially pay to play. The club baseball orgs are even worse than soccer. We're seeing a parallel there with players from Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Central America where surely it's more organic.


Culture continuously evolves. However, I don't see a fast path to an organic soccer culture in the US. Based on my upbringing and my daughters, my impressions are that childhoods are much more structured now. Fewer free-range kids run around the neighborhoods and organize games among themselves. This feeds into the pay-to-play system. Of course, it wasn't like we played much soccer when I was younger, but it is the easiest game to organize with the fewest resources - just something that can be used as a ball. It's a sport made to be organic.


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## Code (Jul 16, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.



Free Market societies usually prevail, and rise to the top.  Free Market sports will probably do the same.  For years people have been beating the drum that the pay to play system is going to fail, and the US teams are going to crash and burn.  Yet here we are, still watching thier success, and watching duel national players (who were raised and trained in the US) play on other National teams.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 16, 2022)

Code said:


> Free Market societies usually prevail, and rise to the top.  Free Market sports will probably do the same.  For years people have been beating the drum that the pay to play system is going to fail, and the US teams are going to crash and burn.  Yet here we are, still watching thier success, and watching duel national players (who were raised and trained in the US) play on other National teams.


I presume you're talking about the girls side re: dual national players training here.  I think that has more to do with what @kickingandscreaming  brought up about the US being amenable to girls soccer earlier on than other countries.  You will see more and more women wanting to play for the girls sides in EPL and La Liga, especially when it becomes clear that coaching in the US is inferior.  Like I said, give it 10 years and the USWNT will be struggling (of course, unless something changes here).


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## VegasParent (Jul 18, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I have a bleaker outlook.  I think the women's side will drop to the same level as men's side in about 10 years.  I mean still one of the top 15 FIFA teams.  But I think you will also see the European women's leagues surpass NWSL, as all top players will head there.  *I think issue has less to do with the individual player and more to do with the style of play.  Most girls in the US aren't getting proper instruction in that regard (a few are for sure). * The one thing I don't have insight into is what soccer culture is like for girls in Europe.  Are girls going outside and playing pickup?  Is it part of their lives apart from training/games?  That culture part is ALWAYS something the US will struggle with for both men and women.


Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 18, 2022)

VegasParent said:


> Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.


Generally teams that blow up the Silver level rely on being overly physical and playing direct.

Those same teams get worked when they jump up to Gold level + get beat by possession teams often with smaller players.

Seen it happen multiple times. Parents that are new to soccer see the results of being overly physical + get crazy on the sidelines. Give those same parents a couple of seasons of playing against possession teams at he Gold level and you'll notice that they're quiet + just focused on the game at hand. Unfortunately you can't explain this to parents they just have to live through it to understand.


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## espola (Jul 18, 2022)

VegasParent said:


> Agree 100%. I have seen this play out more and more over the last few years with my kid. At the GA showcase last month 2 of the teams her team played relied of being overly physical and playing direct. The refs called a tight game so the overly physical play worked against them and in my opinion that style of play will work against those players in the future.


As you pointed out, that depends on referees who are not afraid to call a good game


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## VegasParent (Jul 18, 2022)

espola said:


> As you pointed out, that depends on referees who are not afraid to call a good game


Good point.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 18, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.


IKR.  The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side.  One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable.  We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally.  In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches.  Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".


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## NorCalDad (Jul 18, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side.  One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable.  We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally.  In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches.  Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".


You realize you're on a soccer forum, right?


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## toucan (Jul 18, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  The American "pay to play" system has been a disaster of monumental proportions for the women's side.  One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable.  We really need to overhaul our youth system to be more like the countries like Spain, France and Netherlands that have done so well internationally.  In fact, I've been saying this since way back when we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that. It is just sickening that we Americans need to pay money for our little girls to get the highest level kiddie soccer training from the best coaches.  Instead of spending on education, or healthcare, or even basketball and softball, our government really needs to be spending billions on kiddie soccer coaches to make sure every girl in America can become the best soccer player they can be. Soccer is just that important, especially if we call it "futbol".


I think you are being facetious.  But I'm not sure.

"*One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable.*"  Lack of success?  The USWNT won the last two World Cups in 2019 vs. Netherlands, and 2015 vs. Japan, by a combined score of 7-2. 

"*...we should have been doing what Japan was doing, and China before that, and Brazil before that.*"  Hmm.  The USWNT is currently ranked #1.  Brazil is #9, Japan is #13, and China is #16.  All of those teams whose systems you laud have dropped precipitously in their competitiveness.  In the meantime, the USWNT has made all three of the last World Cup finals and won two of them.  Maybe our girls are doing something right.

I agree with your sentiment that the US should not prioritize soccer, whether for boys or girls, because other things (like education and healthcare) are more important.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 18, 2022)

toucan said:


> I think you are being facetious.  But I'm not sure.
> 
> "*One need only look at the USWNT's complete lack of success at the last two WCs, which is inexcusable.*"  Lack of success?  The USWNT won the last two World Cups in 2019 vs. Netherlands, and 2015 vs. Japan, by a combined score of 7-2.
> 
> ...


That was his point.  We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.  

Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.


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## michelleP (Jul 19, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That was his point.  We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.
> 
> Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.


I think this go around we'll not fare as well. We don't seem to look as strong.  Although some key players are missing, Ertz, Dunn.......    But we shall see!


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

I mean watch this:






This randomly came up in my youtube feed. Aren't these supposed to be two of the stronger girls clubs? I didn't watch the whole game, but some of what I watched resembled rugby more than soccer. The decision making wasn't great and the ball was bouncing all over the place. It just feels like everyone is panicking out there. There really is no method to the madness here. These are 14 year olds, but I've seen the exact same thing at the collegiate level. Unsurprisingly, the girls that appeared to play reasonably well were the smaller and more technical players. 

I think my main point here is I think we're doing a disservice to the girl's side and it will eventually show at the USWNT level as the bigger/faster/stronger mindset will not work against European teams where decision making (e.g., playing with your brain) is emphasized. This happens on the boys side too, obviously. The difference is we already see how that plays out internationally. The only reason the USMNT team is getting better is because a significant portion of those players play overseas.

I just wish we could deemphasize "win-now" and focus on development.  That would, of course, require coaches, players and parents to adjust their lenses significantly.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> That was his point.  We seem to hear this argument every 8 years…inevitably we may end up in 5th in the World then rise again.
> 
> Hope you are all watching the game and getting those viewership numbers up.


We seem to always talk about the demise of the UWNT, yet they somehow continue to be steady as she goes and bounce back.  3rd in the world every once in while isn't a bad thing.  Good on the rest of the world for trying to catch up and are empowering their girls to play.  

Sometimes it's easy to cry wolf (i'm guilty of it when it comes to girl soccer) but then get reminded of how good the top percentile is when the junior teams travel abroad and continue to win. Their records this year speak for themselves.   is the world catching up?  maybe....is it over the next 10 years?  maybe.  Should we all be watching and having fun..absolutely.  

The game last night was touch and go - eventually the better team won , the team that pressured the final 3rd and created more opportunities. Did they close out the game well..nope.  Are they younger than ever before...yep.  Is Vlads style of play  a bit different than what we are used to?  Probably.  Do we have athletes up front that are hard to defend?  yep....do we have more of those in the pipeline...probably.  Do we need to rethink our back line..likely.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean watch this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with most of what you are saying.  Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs.  US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage.  The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps.  Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play.  They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.

Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group.  Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years.  Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc.  Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.  

The downside of our system is some of what you describe above.  Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs.  US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean watch this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is from the year prior and one age group older.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> I 100% agree with most of what you are saying.  Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs.  US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage.  The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps.  Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play.  They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.
> 
> Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group.  Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years.  Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc.  Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.
> 
> The downside of our system is some of what you describe above.  Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs.  US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...


I think it's just a learning process for American parents / families that didn't grow up playing or watching soccer that much.

Wanting to win isn't a bad thing + you shouldn't expect losses just because teams are learning to play possession soccer.

What clubs could do to make things easier / more clear for parents is explain the skillsets that they're looking for in players during + before tryouts. As a parent it sucks when you see coaches skipping over skilled players in favor of the biggest ones or the ones that are big + aggressive to goal but have literally no foot skills or ability to pass. Every coach thinks they can teach players foot skills which may or not be true but by skipping over skilled players for size sets a precedent of what the club values.

Parents are just reacting to what the clubs are defining as value.


----------



## paytoplay (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> I 100% agree with most of what you are saying.  Fortunately the USWNT (to include the juniors) is a collection of players from across the country and from different clubs.  US Soccer has pick of the litter...the ECNL/GA best teams aren't competing on the world stage.  The ECNL/GA game doesn't translate to what US soccer teaches on the field during ID events, regional camps, and team training camps.  Our daugthers are 100% trainable and can make the adjustment from club play to national team play.  They do it every year, transitioning from club to HS and then back again.
> 
> Our YNTs did great work recently traveling abroad - dominating at every age group.  Our pipeline looks rather good for the next 10-15 years.  Granted, they have to stick around, stay interested, healthy, etc.  Our talent pool is much bigger than anywhere else in the world.
> 
> The downside of our system is some of what you describe above.  Development isn't the best but patience doesn't make money for clubs.  US Soccer sits back and cherry picks the best...


To a casual observer or disinterested soccer fan, this is probably not a problem. I know a lot of parents on the sideline that aren’t interested and don’t understand soccer. That’s fine. I rarely watch the same sports I grew up with. But, most of us have players somewhere in the pipeline, with dreams and goals, and we’re all invested personally and monetarily. Maybe a minority of us are frustrated and voice it: the corruption, literal pay to play, terrible and toxic coaching, fraud, favoritism, and the belief that while our players give 100%, the system is half-ass and underperforming. Some of us are also fans of the beautiful game. USWNT is not playing to my personal satisfaction. So what, if a country 10x the size of Canada and pouring billions more into youth soccer than the entire gdp of Haiti, can barrel it’s way to a 1-0 win! I guess these are first world problems anyway.


----------



## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> To a casual observer or disinterested soccer fan, this is probably not a problem. I know a lot of parents on the sideline that aren’t interested and don’t understand soccer. That’s fine. I rarely watch the same sports I grew up with. But, most of us have players somewhere in the pipeline, with dreams and goals, and we’re all invested personally and monetarily. Maybe a minority of us are frustrated and voice it: the corruption, literal pay to play, terrible and toxic coaching, fraud, favoritism, and the belief that while our players give 100%, the system is half-ass and underperforming. Some of us are also fans of the beautiful game. USWNT is not playing to my personal satisfaction. So what, if a country 10x the size of Canada and pouring billions more into youth soccer than the entire gdp of Haiti, can barrel it’s way to a 1-0 win! I guess these are first world problems anyway.


I suppose it depends on which pipeline you are in.  Youth sports can be categorized as many things...you can simultaneously say it's a scam and it's a great way to develop your fledgling citizen.  Both can be true. 

The will to win will drive corruption, pay to play, toxicity, fraud, favoritism.  Happens on the dirt pitches and the turf pitches at all ages, organized or not organized --human nature.

Back to the idea that we are either falling behind or other countries are catching up..maybe...but again our youth teams continue to be the best in the world.  We like to win and will continue to pour money into the funnel, whether that's your own money to get youd DD to play at the "next level" or someone else's money.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

LASTMAN14 said:


> This is from the year prior and one age group older.


Night and day.  That FCB team played lights out -- to criticize them for anything would be nitpicking.  Everyone should watch this video.  I would love to see the metrics from this game (possession, fouls, shots, etc).  Even around the 25 minute of the video the announcers are talking exactly about what we are here.  

Thanks for posting this @LASTMAN14.  I'm going to use this going forward to show people exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I think it's just a learning process for American parents / families that didn't grow up playing or watching soccer that much.
> 
> Wanting to win isn't a bad thing + you shouldn't expect losses just because teams are learning to play possession soccer.
> 
> ...


I don't disgree at all.  It's two separate things....USWNT and club soccer.  More thought is put into assessing and selecting talent for the national teams.  Big+agressive isn't the #1 criteria for US soccer.  Sophia Smith is 5'6", Caterina Macario is 5"5, Rose Lavelle is 5'4".  Sure, there are some bigger players - Alana Cook, Lindsay Horan, etc...but there isn't a pattern so to speak.  Other countries have big and small players.  At this age it's more about skill than size.  I don't think Rose Lavelle is intimidated by Alana Cook to NOT go one on one with her.

Club soccer provides the pipeline, certain universities further refine the pipeline...US soccer provides the guidance, tools, and routine tuning up.  

It's a model that other countries would love to replicate but most can't.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Night and day.  That FCB team played lights out -- to criticize them for anything would be nitpicking.  Everyone should watch this video.  I would love to see the metrics from this game (possession, fouls, shots, etc).  Even around the 25 minute of the video the announcers are talking exactly about what we are here.
> 
> Thanks for posting this @LASTMAN14.  I'm going to use this going forward to show people exactly what I'm talking about.


Spain has come a long way with their DD development/program.. Their national team is very fun to watch and very good. Thanks mostly to Barca.  But I guess I don't know what this proves.  The best (maybe) girls in the state of NJ lost to the best girls in Spain?  Maybe there is a better team in Spain but highly unlikely.  

This game turns out differently if playing the YNT in this age group.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Spain has come a long way with their DD development/program.. Their national team is very fun to watch and very good. Thanks mostly to Barca.  But I guess I don't know what this proves.  The best (maybe) girls in the state of NJ lost to the best girls in Spain?  Maybe there is a better team in Spain but highly unlikely.
> 
> This game turns out differently if playing the YNT in this age group.


For me it shows what we should be striving for and what is possible.  My understanding is PDA is an incredibly strong club as well, I mean they made it to the finals in this tournament.  La Liga on the woman's side has 16 clubs, surely they have 16 U16 academy teams as well? I suspect not all of the girls on that FCB team are from Spain, but I suspect most are.  Spain has a population of 47 million.  Why pit a U17 USWNT against them?  What would that prove?

FCB here was clearly just a better coached team. PDA had no chance in this game. Possession was likely 70-80% FCB and I saw PDA get at least two yellow cards. You could see clear as day the decision making by the FCB players.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 19, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> To a casual observer or disinterested soccer fan, this is probably not a problem. I know a lot of parents on the sideline that aren’t interested and don’t understand soccer. That’s fine. I rarely watch the same sports I grew up with. But, most of us have players somewhere in the pipeline, with dreams and goals, and we’re all invested personally and monetarily. Maybe a minority of us are frustrated and voice it: the corruption, literal pay to play, terrible and toxic coaching, fraud, favoritism, and the belief that while our players give 100%, the system is half-ass and underperforming. Some of us are also fans of the beautiful game. USWNT is not playing to my personal satisfaction. So what, if a country 10x the size of Canada and pouring billions more into youth soccer than the entire gdp of Haiti, can barrel it’s way to a 1-0 win! I guess these are first world problems anyway.


Relax, or before you know it you will find that you squandered the best years a parent could ever have with their daughter, just like crush. 

Youth soccer is not rampant with toxic coaching, fraud, or corruption.  It is, however, rampant with hardworking and underpaid people doing the best they can with limited resources to help kids.  Also, "favoritism" is easily avoidable if your daughter is any good and you aren't an a**hole like crush who burned every bridge imaginable.  But also understand that "favoritism" is an appropriate right for those who actually step up to the plate to do the work, compared to people like you who just throw tantrums that you can't get everything you want without having to pay for what things cost.  

Speaking of that, enough with this "pay to play" nonsense.  You live in the only country on this planet where girls youth soccer is accessible at every conceivable level and price point.  If you don't want to pay for soccer, feel free to play school soccer that does not exist in other countries, or find pickup games in the park, or futsal at the church or YMCA, or play AYSO or any of the other million inexpensive club options.  When people like you complain incessantly about "pay to play", what you are really complaining about is that Pep Guardiola won't coach your little princess for free. 

As for the "beautiful game", it is time you learned that winning soccer on the women's side is not beautiful, at least not what you think is beautiful. The WNT has always excelled due to superior athleticism, strength and speed.  With the one feel good exception of Japan getting insanely lucky once, no team has ever won the WC playing what you call "pretty soccer".  Effective soccer on the women's side requires a lot of direct play and overwhelming physicality, and that is how it is.  Maybe you think doily soccer is pretty, but people who know what they're talking about understand that sledgehammers are far prettier and useful.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Spain has come a long way with their DD development/program.. Their national team is very fun to watch and very good. Thanks mostly to Barca.  But I guess I don't know what this proves.  The best (maybe) girls in the state of NJ lost to the best girls in Spain?  Maybe there is a better team in Spain but highly unlikely.
> 
> This game turns out differently if playing the YNT in this age group.


But not by much….2019 u16 USA lost a friendly to Spain 2-1.  Spain was incredibly balanced and jumped out to a quick lead.  It was our 1st match 2 days after “jumping the pond” and took our girls some time to settle in.  

I believe countries like Spain, England and France have geographic advantages (National Team level) as well as financial advantages (Club Level) over the US.

Geographic - when you can bring 36 girls in from around the country with max 3 hours of travel time it is far more convenient so they can train together more frequently and for much less money and/or strain on the player.  For example, when in England for those 2019 friendlies I was speaking to a Dad of a girl in England who told me they train once sometimes 2x a month over a 2/3 day weekend.  They take a train into St. George’s on Friday and are home by Monday having out in 2 full days of training.  

Financial - you can add up the revenue from the MLS and NWSL and still not touch the financial resources of the big clubs (ie Barcelona) that are being channeled into their youth programs.   When they can pull kids from around the country in an Academy setting often most of those same girls end up playing together on the National team (see Senior National team w/ 9 from Barcelona and 8 from Real Madrid). 

These 2 factors alone equate to a developmental advantage for these smaller European counties that have a far deeper soccer culture.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> But not by much….2019 u16 USA lost a friendly to Spain 2-1.  Spain was incredibly balanced and jumped out to a quick lead.  It was our 1st match 2 days after “jumping the pond” and took our girls some time to settle in.
> 
> I believe countries like Spain, England and France have geographic advantages (National Team level) as well as financial advantages (Club Level) over the US.
> 
> ...


We will see.  I'm all about seeing great competion.  Anytime a US YNT loses (which is rare and likely in unfavorable conditions) we (parents, supporters, fans) declare that everyone is catching up. 

WE fund our girls, WE put them on the path early on.  Again, good competition is a good thing, parity as a fan of the sport is awesome.  I personally don't think other countries will ever truly catch up but there will be moments when we lose.  Even MJ lost but he was still the most dominant form in b-ball.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> For me it shows what we should be striving for and what is possible.  My understanding is PDA is an incredibly strong club as well, I mean they made it to the finals in this tournament.  La Liga on the woman's side has 16 clubs, surely they have 16 U16 academy teams as well? I suspect not all of the girls on that FCB team are from Spain, but I suspect most are.  Spain has a population of 47 million.  Why pit a U17 USWNT against them?  What would that prove?
> 
> FCB here was clearly just a better coached team. PDA had no chance in this game. Possession was likely 70-80% FCB and I saw PDA get at least two yellow cards. You could see clear as day the decision making by the FCB players.


Sure, I don't disagree.  PDA is a great club with plenty of pedigree.  They also have multiple teams.  But they are one of many reputable top tier clubs in the US.  Barca is a completely different animal with  much better funding to attract better coaches....My point is at the national level, the gap between countries, especially at the younger age groups, is still large. And will be for some time. Maybe forever.   Take the U16 YNT and play them against the ECNL or GA natty champs, the game would likely be lopsided.  Sure, some of those league players will be on the YNT but you get my drift.  

I would love for our clubs to be as well funded as the La Liga or EPL Academies are.  Not a chance that happens.  It's up to you, me, and capitalism to fund our clubs and leagues.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Sure, I don't disagree.  PDA is a great club with plenty of pedigree.  They also have multiple teams.  But they are one of many reputable top tier clubs in the US.  Barca is a completely different animal with  much better funding to attract better coaches....My point is at the national level, the gap between countries, especially at the younger age groups, is still large. And will be for some time. Maybe forever.   Take the U16 YNT and play them against the ECNL or GA natty champs, the game would likely be lopsided.  Sure, some of those league players will be on the YNT but you get my drift.
> 
> I would love for our clubs to be as well funded as the La Liga or EPL Academies are.  Not a chance that happens.  It's up to you, me, and capitalism to fund our clubs and leagues.


I guess I would hope all top level clubs in the US would be teaching a system similar to the way FCB played in that video.  I don't even know if this requires a significant overhaul or even more money.  My take is we're in this spin cycle with the bigger, faster, stronger, direct play model and few have attempted to get out of it due to the inherent risk it impacts their employment.  Frankly parents/players should be demanding higher quality of play -- letting the coaches know they value that over wins/loses.


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## oh canada (Jul 19, 2022)

Get used to this type of soccer from the national team. US women only interested in technical players for the 8 and 10 positions. Everyone else it's all about how fast you can run 20mtrs and 40mtrs. So, what do you get? A LOT of missed shots, missed passes, turnovers, and long-balls. S.Smith had a wide open net and missed the entire rectangle. Canada's finishing awful too.

Huerta doesn't belong on that field and it showed. Sinclair for Canada needs to retire. Subbed on defender for Canada is the one who commits the soft foul. Morgan gets the glory for the goal but she did very little throughout the game. Nice PK under pressure, but there are 100s of other women in this country that can do that. Horan and Lavelle best on the field for US. Canada keeper was their star. 

There was a time when a 1-0 PK win against hockey-loving Canada would be viewed as a disappointment. Now you'd think they won the WC. Both sides get a D+ for their grade. C- in today's world of high school grade inflation.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I guess I would hope all top level clubs in the US would be teaching a system similar to the way FCB played in that video.  I don't even know if this requires a significant overhaul or even more money.  My take is we're in this spin cycle with the bigger, faster, stronger, direct play model and few have attempted to get out of it due to the inherent risk it impacts their employment.  Frankly parents/players should be demanding higher quality of play -- letting the coaches know they value that over wins/loses.


Winning drives our soccer culture, not style.  There are thousands of clubs in this country and many very good coaches.  Possesion, confidence on the ball, etc will get you plenty of Ls at the younger ages.  The "beautfiul" game isn't really understood by most parents - most never toed a ball in their life.   What you saw from Barca were skills developed at very early age, confidence in first touch, and confidence on the ball under pressure, especially from their back line (I'm assuming, since I didn't really watch the vidoe).  

Demand what ever you want but SD surf (insert other top national club) is not going to lose games at U13 and risk their populaton moving to their competition.  Parents want to win, they don't like losers who play a boring ,unathletic ulittle soccer scheme.   Kick that ball down the field, get it into the final third, have your faster than everyone Ulittle center forward body everyone off the ball and score. Scoring is much more exciting to most parents than building out of the back.  

There are clubs out there that teach pretty soccer at an early age.  Those kids eventually move on from those clubs and join teams in leagues that get better face time with college coaches...such is life in the US youth soccer scene. 

HS is different from club, the NCAA varies by school (their style).  US soccer last night slanted more direct than possession.  We will see what Vlad has on tap for the next game.  He has the athletes and the experience on the field to move in either direction.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 19, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> But not by much….2019 u16 USA lost a friendly to Spain 2-1.  Spain was incredibly balanced and jumped out to a quick lead.  It was our 1st match 2 days after “jumping the pond” and took our girls some time to settle in.
> 
> I believe countries like Spain, England and France have geographic advantages (National Team level) as well as financial advantages (Club Level) over the US.
> 
> ...


Yes, other countries definitely have a far deeper soccer culture than the US if you don't count the 400,000 girls, 40,000 collegians and roughly 300 professional Americans who play soccer.  And if you ignore that the US has won half the WCs ever played.  WTF are you talking about? Trying to mansplain that men's soccer is important but we should ignore the entire history of women's soccer when we decide what actually constitutes "soccer culture"?

The US has built a powerhouse of NT soccer based on having so many more girls play the sport at a higher level and for more years than any other country in the world.  The US has the most dominant women's system by a mile and a half.  But you want to abandon it because you have some fantasy notion that countries that have never won anything in their history are doing things right and we aren't?  Do you even know what a country like Spain actually does on the girls side?  Let me tell you.  There is no soccer culture for girls.  There is no hope of being a big deal playing HS. There is no hope of using soccer to leverage and help finance your college education. There are also maybe 5 remotely decent soccer clubs for girls in the entire country, compared to over 100 in the US.  For most, there is no chance of ever being able to play at any remotely high level.  And even if you want to play for most youth academies, I also hope you have 20,000 euros (See FC Malaga City Femenino | Elite Level Women's Football Programme), or live close to one of the very few that don't make you pay a fortune. And even then, please tell me the names of all these super great girls youth coaches in Spain.  Or just one. There are also maybe ten 20 year old Spanish women who play competitive soccer in Spain, while there are more than 10,000 in the U.S.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Winning drives our soccer culture, not style.  There are thousands of clubs in this country and many very good coaches.  Possesion, confidence on the ball, etc will get you plenty of Ls at the younger ages.  The "beautfiul" game isn't really understood by most parents - most never toed a ball in their life.   What you saw from Barca were skills developed at very early age, confidence in first touch, and confidence on the ball under pressure, especially from their back line (I'm assuming, since I didn't really watch the vidoe).
> 
> Demand what ever you want but SD surf (insert other top national club) is not going to lose games at U13 and risk their populaton moving to their competition.  Parents want to win, they don't like losers who play a boring ,unathletic ulittle soccer scheme.   Kick that ball down the field, get it into the final third, have your faster than everyone Ulittle center forward body everyone off the ball and score. Scoring is much more exciting to most parents than building out of the back.
> 
> ...


IKR.  If only we could take all of the competitive spirit out of kids and turn them into soccer drones, the US would definitely become better than the miserable squads that have won the last two WCs.  We definitely need to drive as many children as possible out of the sport by taking all the fun out of it.  Youth sports is not about fun.  It is about doing everything possible for little girls with enough ability and dedication to nab one of those lucrative contracts that their predecessors like Messi and Neymar get.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 19, 2022)

As I mentioned on a previous pos this debate is not a new one here. So, I will keep my point simple and direct. The USWNT can not sit on its merits it must evolve. Many nations in some ways have caught up and are evolving. The US process of development is splintered and does not promote development rather just winning. We can discuss that USWNT will remain dominate but for how long when sitting idle?


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> IKR.  If only we could take all of the competitive spirit out of kids and turn them into soccer drones, the US would definitely become better than the miserable squads that have won the last two WCs.  We definitely need to drive as many children as possible out of the sport by taking all the fun out of it.  Youth sports is not about fun.  It is about doing everything possible for little girls with enough ability and dedication to nab one of those lucrative contracts that their predecessors like Messi and Neymar get.


This thread was going just fine until you showed up.  go back to your hole por favor.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jul 19, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, other countries definitely have a far deeper soccer culture than the US if you don't count the 400,000 girls, 40,000 collegians and roughly 300 professional Americans who play soccer.  And if you ignore that the US has won half the WCs ever played.  WTF are you talking about? Trying to mansplain that men's soccer is important but we should ignore the entire history of women's soccer when we decide what actually constitutes "soccer culture"?
> 
> The US has built a powerhouse of NT soccer based on having so many more girls play the sport at a higher level and for more years than any other country in the world.  The US has the most dominant women's system by a mile and a half.  But you want to abandon it because you have some fantasy notion that countries that have never won anything in their history are doing things right and we aren't?  Do you even know what a country like Spain actually does on the girls side?  Let me tell you.  There is no soccer culture for girls.  There is no hope of being a big deal playing HS. There is no hope of using soccer to leverage and help finance your college education. There are also maybe 5 remotely decent soccer clubs for girls in the entire country, compared to over 100 in the US.  For most, there is no chance of ever being able to play at any remotely high level.  And even if you want to play for most youth academies, I also hope you have 20,000 euros (See FC Malaga City Femenino | Elite Level Women's Football Programme), or live close to one of the very few that don't make you pay a fortune. And even then, please tell me the names of all these super great girls youth coaches in Spain.  Or just one. There are also maybe ten 20 year old Spanish women who play competitive soccer in Spain, while there are more than 10,000 in the U.S.


You’re just too stupid to realize we agree…except on the Culture part.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> This thread was going just fine until you showed up.  go back to your hole por favor.


So sorry for getting in the way of everyone's pity party.  Everyone feel free to continue babbling about how the USWNT would have been much better if only they'd gone with circus jugglers instead of real athletes, about how Spain has it all figured out on the women's side, and how women's soccer culture doesn't count because they're just women.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, other countries definitely have a far deeper soccer culture than the US if you don't count the 400,000 girls, 40,000 collegians and roughly 300 professional Americans who play soccer.  And if you ignore that the US has won half the WCs ever played.  WTF are you talking about? Trying to mansplain that men's soccer is important but we should ignore the entire history of women's soccer when we decide what actually constitutes "soccer culture"?
> 
> The US has built a powerhouse of NT soccer based on having so many more girls play the sport at a higher level and for more years than any other country in the world.  The US has the most dominant women's system by a mile and a half.  But you want to abandon it because you have some fantasy notion that countries that have never won anything in their history are doing things right and we aren't?  Do you even know what a country like Spain actually does on the girls side?  Let me tell you.  There is no soccer culture for girls.  There is no hope of being a big deal playing HS. There is no hope of using soccer to leverage and help finance your college education. There are also maybe 5 remotely decent soccer clubs for girls in the entire country, compared to over 100 in the US.  For most, there is no chance of ever being able to play at any remotely high level.  And even if you want to play for most youth academies, I also hope you have 20,000 euros (See FC Malaga City Femenino | Elite Level Women's Football Programme), or live close to one of the very few that don't make you pay a fortune. And even then, please tell me the names of all these super great girls youth coaches in Spain.  Or just one. There are also maybe ten 20 year old Spanish women who play competitive soccer in Spain, while there are more than 10,000 in the U.S.


You don't think every single one of those FCB players in that video wouldn't be recruited by US colleges?  I mean on the men's side it's not atypical to see half the roster filled with players from out of the US.  Why wouldn't that happen here?  I do think for the majority of players our collegiate system is great as most players will never go pro and it's a great way to continue playing while gaining an education that will ultimately be used to traverse life.  You really don't hear too much about the European academy players that don't make it to the first team.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Winning drives our soccer culture, not style.  There are thousands of clubs in this country and many very good coaches.  Possesion, confidence on the ball, etc will get you plenty of Ls at the younger ages.  The "beautfiul" game isn't really understood by most parents - most never toed a ball in their life.   What you saw from Barca were skills developed at very early age, confidence in first touch, and confidence on the ball under pressure, especially from their back line (I'm assuming, since I didn't really watch the vidoe).
> 
> Demand what ever you want but SD surf (insert other top national club) is not going to lose games at U13 and risk their populaton moving to their competition.  Parents want to win, they don't like losers who play a boring ,unathletic ulittle soccer scheme.   Kick that ball down the field, get it into the final third, have your faster than everyone Ulittle center forward body everyone off the ball and score. Scoring is much more exciting to most parents than building out of the back.
> 
> ...


I've seen a lot of youngers with the kind of skills necessary to match the level of the FCB team.  Their downside is they're on the smaller side and not the stereotypical player clubs generally pick.  I think we could most definitely get there.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 19, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> So sorry for getting in the way of everyone's pity party.  Everyone feel free to continue babbling about how the USWNT would have been much better if only they'd gone with circus jugglers instead of real athletes, about how Spain has it all figured out on the women's side, and how women's soccer culture doesn't count because they're just women.


I don't think anyone has said any of that.  

USWNT has done wonders for woman's soccer worldwide.  A lot of these European countries would not even be bothering with the woman's side if it weren't for the influence of the USWNT.   

I'd be willing to bet we could take your comments and see parallels to the era of Pele around Brasil's style of play, or for that matter any of the multitudes of innovations in the sport.  I'm sure most have read "Inverting the Pyramid", but if not, it's an excellent read.


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## Happened again (Jul 19, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> So sorry for getting in the way of everyone's pity party.  Everyone feel free to continue babbling about how the USWNT would have been much better if only they'd gone with circus jugglers instead of real athletes, about how Spain has it all figured out on the women's side, and how women's soccer culture doesn't count because they're just women.


you are so ridiculousy dumb - very endearing.  Philosphically I'm closer to your opinion than everyone else who's chimed in.  The difference is you are just dumb and irritating.  To ignore you go. Hopefully everyone else follows suit and you will be relegated to talking to the wall.


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## VanMan (Jul 19, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I mean watch this:


What's interesting is that Surf brought in a new Technical Director for the Girls' side a couple months after this game for the express purpose of transitioning to a more possession/build up style of play.


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## paytoplay (Jul 20, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> "favoritism" is easily avoidable if your daughter is any good and you aren't an a**hole like crush who *burned every bridge *imaginable.  But also understand that "favoritism" is an appropriate right for those who actually step up to the plate to do the work, compared to people like you who just throw tantrums that you can't get everything you want without having to pay for what things cost.
> 
> Speaking of that, enough with this "pay to play" nonsense.  You live in the only country on this planet where girls youth soccer is accessible at every conceivable level and price point.  If you don't want to pay for soccer, feel free to play school soccer that does not exist in other countries,


Burn bridges? In other words, the gatekeepers have massive egos. They will resort to cancel culture if not shown the proper respect by the player’s parent or guardian. If the parent dares to say something on the internet, or if the parent’s name comes up in a conversation somewhere, that player will be punished on the field. Got it. The hard work is actually done by the highly skilled coaches and not the players risking acl tears or balancing school work with their athletics. Understood. So, pay to play soccer exists for the benefit of the club and not really for any player development. That’s what I thought. Thanks for the club perspective. It really lets us know what is important.


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## Brav520 (Jul 20, 2022)

Anyone watching Euros ?

that England Vs Spain game was great today


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 20, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> Anyone watching Euros ?
> 
> that England Vs Spain game was great today


Yes. England was gritty enough to come back and finish. Spain showed they are creative and intelligent, but are not there yet.


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## Brav520 (Jul 20, 2022)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Yes. England was gritty enough to come back and finish. Spain showed they are creative and intelligent, but are not there yet.


yeah I think the home crowd helped England , and certainly Spain sat back the last 30 or so absorbing pressure, dam broke so to speak


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 21, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, other countries definitely have a far deeper soccer culture than the US if you don't count the 400,000 girls, 40,000 collegians and roughly 300 professional Americans who play soccer.  And if you ignore that the US has won half the WCs ever played.  WTF are you talking about? Trying to mansplain that men's soccer is important but we should ignore the entire history of women's soccer when we decide what actually constitutes "soccer culture"?
> 
> The US has built a powerhouse of NT soccer based on having so many more girls play the sport at a higher level and for more years than any other country in the world.  The US has the most dominant women's system by a mile and a half.  But you want to abandon it because you have some fantasy notion that countries that have never won anything in their history are doing things right and we aren't?  Do you even know what a country like Spain actually does on the girls side?  Let me tell you.  There is no soccer culture for girls.  There is no hope of being a big deal playing HS. There is no hope of using soccer to leverage and help finance your college education. There are also maybe 5 remotely decent soccer clubs for girls in the entire country, compared to over 100 in the US.  For most, there is no chance of ever being able to play at any remotely high level.  And even if you want to play for most youth academies, I also hope you have 20,000 euros (See FC Malaga City Femenino | Elite Level Women's Football Programme), or live close to one of the very few that don't make you pay a fortune. And even then, please tell me the names of all these super great girls youth coaches in Spain.  Or just one. There are also maybe ten 20 year old Spanish women who play competitive soccer in Spain, while there are more than 10,000 in the U.S.


Yes, the USWNT has been dominant. That doesn't mean it can't be better. Failing to look at potential challenges and weaknesses has been the downfall of dominant teams, companies, and empires throughout history. It also makes for interesting board discussions.

Your point that the soccer culture in a given country (Spain) may be significantly different for girls versus boys is a good one, but I contend that is more specific to the general cultural approach to girls' and boys' sports, which is part of the USA's advantage of being relatively more progressive in girls' sports. If so, this advantage will continue to wane unless opportunities for girls in sports do not grow in other countries as they have in the USA.

Also, your contention that the USWNT excelled due to superior athleticism, strength, and speed is an advantage that would be expected to shrink as well unless US women are somehow at a much higher relative world standing in those traits than US men.

Relative participation is the only advantage I see for the girls versus the boys in the US. Training is no better, and there is a bias toward the boys at the higher levels due to financial incentives. I'm not buying that this is the only difference that separates the relative rankings of the best National Team in the world (USWNT) and the USMNT.

Defining a good soccer culture is subjective. I'd say we will have a good one in the US when pickup games of various skill levels are as consistently available at local parks as pickup basketball games. This type of culture would solve more "underachieving" than anything else we could do and would be relatively cheap. I don't think much of the idea that some National Team level soccer players are being missed due to "pay-to-play". However, I believe the lack of opportunities to get out and play with other youngsters drives the underrepresentation of girls in lower socio-economic areas. I am confident that if an 8-year-old player were tearing it up at her local park, word would get out, and a club would come calling. Unfortunately, culture doesn't change particularly fast. We could certainly use one or two USWNT stars from these areas to light the fire of participation.


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## toucan (Jul 21, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree. No soccer culture inevitably leads to the pay to play system, like a predator swooping down on it’s prey. We’re throwing money and raw numbers into it and what comes out is going to leave us below potential, only merely competitive because we have numbers. Because it’s pay to play, we’re going to mine mostly the upper middle classes, leaving untapped millions who can’t get rides to club practices, can’t pay admission, can’t travel across town or across the country. I saw this in my town, in rec through club. Classmates from the poorer areas, weren’t paying to play youth sports. Club mates, however, the parents could afford to pay admission and just as importantly could be available to take the kid to practice. Go look at all the nice expensive cars in the parking lot at a typical club practice. Tells the story.


You talk so much about why pay-to-play is so bad.  Instead, why don't you tell us how we can eliminate pay-to-play, including your thoughts on:

Whether coaches should ever be paid, and if so, where the money will come from?
Whether fields should be built or maintained, and if so, where will the money come from?
Whether leagues should be formed, or clubs for that matter, and if so, who will pay for the administrators?
I agree that club soccer is expensive and that the majority of families who participate come from "mostly upper middle classes," to use your words.  Instead of ranting, what is your solution to financial inequality?


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## paytoplay (Jul 21, 2022)

toucan said:


> You talk so much about why pay-to-play is so bad.  Instead, why don't you tell us how we can eliminate pay-to-play, including your thoughts on:
> 
> Whether coaches should ever be paid, and if so, where the money will come from?
> Whether fields should be built or maintained, and if so, where will the money come from?
> ...


What fields did the clubs build?? What pockets built the Great Park?
The formation of the clubs is parasitical. They feed off the work of the athletes. Your player might have a great coach, but I guarantee you her friend who plays for another club has an idiot for a coach. Organization is required, of course. But, we’re talking about soccer—you couldn’t design a sport better suited to minimalism. Instead, the club system introduces: travel!, expensive kits, dipshit coaches, literal pay to play, blackballing, etc. How would we be worse off if the players were still in some kind of tiered recreational system like AYSO? Especially in Southern California, why is it even necessary to travel 10 miles, let alone travel to AZ to find competition? What a wasteful system! You know it’s going to get worse too. I’m sure these guys will dream up some real doozies! That’s just like my opinion, man.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 21, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Burn bridges? In other words, the gatekeepers have massive egos. They will resort to cancel culture if not shown the proper respect by the player’s parent or guardian. If the parent dares to say something on the internet, or if the parent’s name comes up in a conversation somewhere, that player will be punished on the field. Got it. The hard work is actually done by the highly skilled coaches and not the players risking acl tears or balancing school work with their athletics. Understood. So, pay to play soccer exists for the benefit of the club and not really for any player development. That’s what I thought. Thanks for the club perspective. It really lets us know what is important.


"Cancel culture" is nothing more than a fancy term used by people who don't want to be held accountable for their inappropriate behavior.  Parents like you and crush complain incessantly and do nothing but criticize others, but you expect that there should be no repercussions.

You are nuts if you think pay to play exists "for the benefit of the club and not really for any player development".  Pay to play exists because soccer costs what it costs.  And the USofA has done pretty well for itself in terms of player development, better than every other country in the world.  It has done so well, in fact, that it has won the last two WCs and was unlucky not to have won three.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 21, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> What fields did the clubs build?? What pockets built the Great Park?
> The formation of the clubs is parasitical. They feed off the work of the athletes. Your player might have a great coach, but I guarantee you her friend who plays for another club has an idiot for a coach. Organization is required, of course. But, we’re talking about soccer—you couldn’t design a sport better suited to minimalism. Instead, the club system introduces: travel!, expensive kits, dipshit coaches, literal pay to play, blackballing, etc. How would we be worse off if the players were still in some kind of tiered recreational system like AYSO? Especially in Southern California, why is it even necessary to travel 10 miles, let alone travel to AZ to find competition? What a wasteful system! You know it’s going to get worse too. I’m sure these guys will dream up some real doozies! That’s just like my opinion, man.


There is no monolithic "system" of youth soccer in the US.  You live in the only country in the world that has every conceivable price point and level of youth soccer for girls.  There is absolutely nothing stopping your kid from playing AYSO, or school soccer, or inexpensive comp, or pickup games in the park if you're too cheap to pay for training from professionals.


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## espola (Jul 21, 2022)




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## outside! (Jul 21, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> There is no monolithic "system" of youth soccer in the US.  You live in the only country in the world that has every conceivable price point and level of youth soccer for girls.  There is absolutely nothing stopping your kid from playing AYSO, or school soccer, or inexpensive comp, or pickup games in the park if you're too cheap to pay for training from professionals.


"Monolithic?", No, but there is a fragmented system that has a lot of unnecessary travel costs because of that fragmentation. Many people would like to participate but do not have the means. That does not mean they are cheap.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jul 22, 2022)

espola said:


>


Pretty pathetic game on both sides.


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## espola (Jul 22, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Pretty pathetic game on both sides.


USA got lots of just-missed shots.

It might be comforting to youth players and their coaches that even at the highest levels players will, after having worked the ball up the field with skill and teamwork, lob a softie right into the keeper's hands.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 22, 2022)

outside! said:


> "Monolithic?", No, but there is a fragmented system that has a lot of unnecessary travel costs because of that fragmentation. Many people would like to participate but do not have the means. That does not mean they are cheap.


Yes, many people do not have the means to pay for what elite soccer costs.  They also don't have the means to pay for equestrian lessons.  Or piano lessons.  Or SAT prep.  Or Ferraris. The fact that certain avenues of youth soccer are closed to people who lack the resources to pay for them has nothing to do with youth soccer, let alone suggest that youth soccer is broken or "too expensive". Why is it that people think things should cost what they cost for everything but soccer?  Is youth soccer so important compared to any other activity that skilled and valuable coaches should just do it for free?  Those with control over field space should give it away for free? People who run youth soccer clubs are "greedy" because they expect to be paid to run a business?

ECNL has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate in it.  AYSO has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  HS has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  We know that because they continue to exist.  We also know GDA did not have the right amount of travel because it collapsed largely because of the travel costs.  You call it "fragmentation", but the appropriate word is "options".


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## toucan (Jul 22, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> What fields did the clubs build?? What pockets built the Great Park?
> The formation of the clubs is parasitical. They feed off the work of the athletes. Your player might have a great coach, but I guarantee you her friend who plays for another club has an idiot for a coach. Organization is required, of course. But, we’re talking about soccer—you couldn’t design a sport better suited to minimalism. Instead, the club system introduces: travel!, expensive kits, dipshit coaches, literal pay to play, blackballing, etc. How would we be worse off if the players were still in some kind of tiered recreational system like AYSO? Especially in Southern California, why is it even necessary to travel 10 miles, let alone travel to AZ to find competition? What a wasteful system! You know it’s going to get worse too. I’m sure these guys will dream up some real doozies! That’s just like my opinion, man.


That is not an answer; it is just more ranting.  Somebody has to pay for coaches, field fees and administration.  Who, in your opinion, should have to pay these fees if not the parents of the players?  You're the guy who objects to "pay-to-play."  What is your solution?


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## GoldenGate (Jul 22, 2022)

toucan said:


> That is not an answer; it is just more ranting.  Somebody has to pay for coaches, field fees and administration.  Who, in your opinion, should have to pay these fees if not the parents of the players?  You're the guy who objects to "pay-to-play."  What is your solution?


The answer is always the same from anti "pay to play" people: anyone but them. The government should pay.  Youth soccer coaches should pay by giving up their time and ability to earn a living and coach kids for free.  Youth club admins should pay by giving up their time and ability to earn a living to run these clubs for free.  Land owners should love soccer so much that they let everyone use field space for free instead of making money from it.  Other parents should pay by foregoing their ability to use their financial resources to leverage their daughter's athletic ability into college opportunity.  Instead, they should accept less qualified cheaper coaches, less qualified skilled teammates, and lower quality games against less skilled opponents.


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## paytoplay (Jul 22, 2022)

toucan said:


> That is not an answer; it is just more ranting.  Somebody has to pay for coaches, field fees and administration.  Who, in your opinion, should have to pay these fees if not the parents of the players?  You're the guy who objects to "pay-to-play."  What is your solution?


Good work. Youcan comprehend the part about my objection to pay-to-play  I hate it. The clubs have hijacked the sport. Rentseekers. They add little value and are annoying. More salesman than mentor. For every decent coach, 10 more that suck. Those schmucks should be run out of town.

It’s the players themselves that are the value—their hard work, their learning from each other, paying for private training and private coaching, and their luck of both inheriting good genes and family support. The athletes pre-dated the clubs, contrary to what you think.

The solution is obviously to return to the era before the rise of the clubs. Elite players and useful coaches will gravitate to each other, with the incentive of seeing who’s best. To a large degree, they will develop each other. Health of the club won’t be an incentive. They won’t exist. It won’t be free soccer, but compared to now, play will be accessible, affordable and local. We may not get there, the world often ignores obvious solutions to problems. But, can the current system sustain itself? I hope something happens to disrupt it. I will be rooting for that.

Since the USA is not a socialist country, maybe the solution is not looking at other successful youth soccer systems, although I would prefer we do what Spain and France are doing. (I say, “not socialist,” except for the taxpayer-subsidized fields and public schools and colleges.) But, if I were a billionaire, I would create a superclub and drive the clubs out of business just for the satisfaction. That’s my dream.


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## paytoplay (Jul 22, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, many people do not have the means to pay for what elite soccer costs.  They also don't have the means to pay for equestrian lessons.  Or piano lessons.  Or SAT prep.  Or Ferraris. The fact that certain avenues of youth soccer are closed to people who lack the resources to pay for them has nothing to do with youth soccer, let alone suggest that youth soccer is broken or "too expensive". Why is it that people think things should cost what they cost for everything but soccer?  Is youth soccer so important compared to any other activity that skilled and valuable coaches should just do it for free?  *Those with control over field space should give it away for free*? People who run youth soccer clubs are "greedy" because they expect to be paid to run a business?
> 
> ECNL has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate in it.  AYSO has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  HS has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  We know that because they continue to exist.  We also know GDA did not have the right amount of travel because it collapsed largely because of the travel costs.  You call it "fragmentation", but the appropriate word is "options".


Taxpayers of Irvine continue to pay for every soccer field and every improvement at the Great Park. Would be interesting if they started charging for the full price, instead of practically giving it away for free. And the school districts should do the same.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 22, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Good work. Youcan comprehend the part about my objection to pay-to-play  I hate it. The clubs have hijacked the sport. Rentseekers. They add little value and are annoying. More salesman than mentor. For every decent coach, 10 more that suck. Those schmucks should be run out of town.
> 
> It’s the players themselves that are the value—their hard work, their learning from each other, paying for private training and private coaching, and their luck of both inheriting good genes and family support. The athletes pre-dated the clubs, contrary to what you think.
> 
> ...


A 13 year old girl who can kick a soccer ball has zero value no matter how much you claim otherwise.  Their ability to kick a soccer ball is worthless to others.  Someone who can help that player develop to the point that they can leverage their ability into Stanford or UCLA, however, is incredibly valuable and deserves to be paid accordingly.  You are clueless.

I love people like you who live a fantasy that girls youth soccer is so great in countries like Spain and France.  The truth is you have no clue what things are actually like there.  You don't know the first thing about the actual opportunities and options a girl has in either of those countries. You have no idea what levels of soccer are available to kids in those countries, let alone how much they cost.  You can't identify a single coach in either of those countries who does a great job developing players, let alone one who is better at it than Baker or Deza who are in your backyard. You have no clue that a youth academy like Malaga FC charges kids 20,000 euros for a 10 month season, and at Alacante it is 1900 euros a month. You conveniently ignore that Spain and France have systems that drive virtually every teenage girl out of the sport by the time they're 18 years old, and that 99.99 percent of them cannot leverage their ability to play soccer into anything at all, whereas there are 40,000 American girls right now playing collegiately.  You have no idea that a 16 year old girl in Marseille who wants to play soccer for fun doesn't even have a pathway to do that in most circumstances, unlike in the U.S. Did you know that there are maybe twenty 20 year old Spanish women who play soccer competitively, while there are 10,000 American women?  You have no clue that the very few who do decide to follow the dream must give up everything, education, work experience, all of it, while 40,000 American women right now get to follow their dream of playing soccer and get an education at the same time.


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## outside! (Jul 22, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Yes, many people do not have the means to pay for what elite soccer costs.  They also don't have the means to pay for equestrian lessons.  Or piano lessons.  Or SAT prep.  Or Ferraris. The fact that certain avenues of youth soccer are closed to people who lack the resources to pay for them has nothing to do with youth soccer, let alone suggest that youth soccer is broken or "too expensive". Why is it that people think things should cost what they cost for everything but soccer?  Is youth soccer so important compared to any other activity that skilled and valuable coaches should just do it for free?  Those with control over field space should give it away for free? People who run youth soccer clubs are "greedy" because they expect to be paid to run a business?
> 
> ECNL has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate in it.  AYSO has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  HS has just the right amount of travel for those who choose to participate.  We know that because they continue to exist.  We also know GDA did not have the right amount of travel because it collapsed largely because of the travel costs.  You call it "fragmentation", but the appropriate word is "options".


I thought the point of this discussion was to find ways to improve US soccer. The fragmentation I am referring to is the many upper level leagues that cause local teams to travel and prevent them from playing one another. These leagues also dilute the talent. All of these leagues exist due to a lack of non-corrupt leadership from US Soccer and their primary purpose is to funnel dollars to the leagues, not to make better soccer players. No more than 1 or 2 SoCal teams per age group should ever have a reason to travel out of SoCal. Since the vast majority of games are played at facilities funded by the taxpayers, we should be able to demand some efficiency.


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## toucan (Jul 22, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Good work. Youcan comprehend the part about my objection to pay-to-play  I hate it. The clubs have hijacked the sport. Rentseekers. They add little value and are annoying. More salesman than mentor. For every decent coach, 10 more that suck. Those schmucks should be run out of town.
> 
> It’s the players themselves that are the value—their hard work, their learning from each other, paying for private training and private coaching, and their luck of both inheriting good genes and family support. The athletes pre-dated the clubs, contrary to what you think.
> 
> ...


OK.  You're a nut-job.  Your solution for eliminating pay-to-play and increasing the overall level of soccer is to find a billionaire who will build a superclub and put all the other clubs out of business.  I don't know what other teams that superclub will play.  Maybe another team supported by another billionaire.


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## paytoplay (Jul 22, 2022)

toucan said:


> OK.  You're a nut-job.  Your solution for eliminating pay-to-play and increasing the overall level of soccer is to find a billionaire who will build a superclub and put all the other clubs out of business.  I don't know what other teams that superclub will play.  Maybe another team supported by another billionaire.


You and the other guy with a bunch of ad hominem attacks. Get a room.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 22, 2022)

I personally have a bigger issue with win-now vs pay-to-play.  The later is pretty much unavoidable.  That said I think it's fair to acknowledge the downsides to pay-to-play, which there are many.  For me, I wish pay-to-play produced a better product.  Unfortunately the majority of players/parents do not value development over win-now and the clubs are catering to its customers wants.  It's just unfortunate.  This is why on the men's side so many players play in Europe instead of the MLS.  I postulate that this is going to happen more and more on the woman's side over time.  If that FCB vs PDA game didn't convince you, I don't know what will.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 22, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> You and the other guy with a bunch of ad hominem attacks. Get a room.


I'm sorry, but it appears that you still haven't identified a single awesome Spanish youth girls coach.  I'm also still waiting for you to educate all of us on what options girls actually have to play soccer in Spain and France, and how much each of them cost.  What options does a 14 year old girl in Malaga have to play soccer besides paying Malaga FC 20,000 euros a year?

Why do you hate the United States so much?  Why is it so important that you tear down the greatest women's soccer power in the history of the world to pattern it after a country like Spain?  You believe the country that has won two straight WCs and was unlucky not to win three, and which has won half of the WCs ever played, is a catastrophe.  And we should abandon what we do to follow a country that has never won a single knockout stage game at the WC, Olympics or even the Euros in the entire history of planet earth?  Think about that for a second.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 22, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I personally have a bigger issue with win-now vs pay-to-play.  The later is pretty much unavoidable.  That said I think it's fair to acknowledge the downsides to pay-to-play, which there are many.  For me, I wish pay-to-play produced a better product.  Unfortunately the majority of players/parents do not value development over win-now and the clubs are catering to its customers wants.  It's just unfortunate.  This is why on the men's side so many players play in Europe instead of the MLS.  I postulate that this is going to happen more and more on the woman's side over time.  If that FCB vs PDA game didn't convince you, I don't know what will.


It is possible (and necessary) to emphasize winning and also develop players.  I don't know why people think it is one or the other.  The truth is winning is important because having fun is important, and there is nothing more fun than winning.  If you want to win soccer games at the highest level, you need alphas, players who have a burning need to win, and that needs to be fed constantly. When you make children spend their youth dribbling through cones, juggling and making wall passes all day long, you deprive them of the most joyous part of the sport and drive most of the alphas out of it, while stifling the most important mental mindset for the rest.  Seriously, people like you beat into little girls that winning isn't important their entire youth, but then you turn around and wonder why they don't win when they're adults?  Meanwhile, the American youth clubs that you and your "beautiful game" buddies thumb your nose at for emphasizing winning over circus juggling keep cranking out winners. 

Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason.  They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport.  They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes.  It is sad watching their body language when they have to defend a corner against a team like the US, England or Germany.  They know they're losers, so they lose.  They had 70% possession against Germany but were dominated and got mugged on a header.  They had 60% possession and the lead against England but were dominated and got mugged again on a header.  Passing the ball around the back and midfield all day isn't pretty soccer.  It's an embarrassing fear of engagement.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 22, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> It is possible (and necessary) to emphasize winning and also develop players.  I don't know why people think it is one or the other.  The truth is winning is important because having fun is important, and there is nothing more fun than winning.  If you want to win soccer games at the highest level, you need alphas, players who have a burning need to win, and that needs to be fed constantly. When you make children spend their youth dribbling through cones, juggling and making wall passes all day long, you deprive them of the most joyous part of the sport and drive most of the alphas out of it, while stifling the most important mental mindset for the rest.  Seriously, people like you beat into little girls that winning isn't important their entire youth, but then you turn around and wonder why they don't win when they're adults?  Meanwhile, the American youth clubs that you and your "beautiful game" buddies thumb your nose at for emphasizing winning over circus juggling keep cranking out winners.
> 
> Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason.  They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport.  They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes.  It is sad watching their body language when they have to defend a corner against a team like the US, England or Germany.  They know they're losers, so they lose.  They had 70% possession against Germany but were dominated and got mugged on a header.  They had 60% possession and the lead against England but were dominated and got mugged again on a header.  Passing the ball around the back and midfield all day isn't pretty soccer.  It's an embarrassing fear of engagement.


@GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case.  I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment.  Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time?  I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no".  My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up.  In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players.  Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time.  So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore. 

In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making.  The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway.  Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 22, 2022)

@GoldenGate I highly recommend you take a moment and read: 



			https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08PL2S7H3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
		


I wish coaches/DoCs would read this (I'm sure many do).  It aligns with what Todd Beane preaches...and what I buy into big time. 

I just don't understand your aversion to wanting coaching in the US to continually improve.


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## Happened again (Jul 22, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> @GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case.  I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment.  Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time?  I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no".  My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up.  In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players.  Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time.  So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore.
> 
> In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making.  The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway.  Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.


You are living in la la land.  Euro teams dial in their girls side?  The point that GG is making ( admittedly I agree) is that building out of the back and possession without finishing in the final 3rd wins zero games.  Spain did exactly that.  Citing a PDA vs Barca game as the revelation that we are being overtaken at a rapid pace is silly. PDA is one of many, many clubs in the US.  Play that game against another club that plays a similar style but finishes, that game ends differently.  There are many out there, all over the country, in the GA,ECNL NPL..blah blah..they are out there.  Play that game against a YNT with YNT coaches, and that game is different...I would guess.  Are the Barca girls technically good..yep.  

A very old senior team won bronze recently, the YNTs just came back from Europe, wreaking havoc against everyone.  There are other regional youth  tournanments going on us club teams doing very well.   I  think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure.  Are others creeping up, showing improvement...of course - Austrialia, France, Japan, Spain...

To your point of the men's game...finishing in the final third is the key.  Good teams know when to apply what to win games.  Every game is different, every year is different, the leagues are different....even the world cup is different.  Remeber when a possession team dismantled Brazil? Big, precise, finishing, patience, disruption.  Soccer is fun though and these discussions are also.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 22, 2022)

Happened again said:


> You are living in la la land.  Euro teams dial in their girls side?  The point that GG is making ( admittedly I agree) is that building out of the back and possession without finishing in the final 3rd wins zero games.  Spain did exactly that.  Citing a PDA vs Barca game as the revelation that we are being overtaken at a rapid pace is silly. PDA is one of many, many clubs in the US.  Play that game against another club that plays a similar style but finishes, that game ends differently.  There are many out there, all over the country, in the GA,ECNL NPL..blah blah..they are out there.  Play that game against a YNT with YNT coaches, and that game is different...I would guess.  Are the Barca girls technically good..yep.
> 
> A very old senior team won bronze recently, the YNTs just came back from Europe, wreaking havoc against everyone.  There are other regional youth  tournanments going on us club teams doing very well.   I  think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure.  Are others creeping up, showing improvement...of course - Austrialia, France, Japan, Spain...
> 
> To your point of the men's game...finishing in the final third is the key.  Good teams know when to apply what to win games.  Every game is different, every year is different, the leagues are different....even the world cup is different.  Remeber when a possession team dismantled Brazil? Big, precise, finishing, patience, disruption.  Soccer is fun though and these discussions are also.


Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands.  I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here.  Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".


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## Happened again (Jul 22, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands.  I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here.  Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".


we are beating a dead horse.  Plenty of coaches that agree with you..  Unfortunately there are more parents that just want to win.  US Soccer on the girls side will continue to cook up their recipe.  If an ingredient needs to be substituted/adjusted..then so be it.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 22, 2022)

Happened again said:


> we are beating a dead horse.  Plenty of coaches that agree with you..  Unfortunately there are more parents that just want to win.  US Soccer on the girls side will continue to cook up their recipe.  If an ingredient needs to be substituted/adjusted..then so be it.


You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.


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## Happened again (Jul 23, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.


I don't know how much soccer you've personally played in your life or what soccer outside of Norcal you've witnessed.   Plenty of ingredients to soccer, you could debate the details forever, tactics and strategies abound, esepcially when players get older.  Should we teach skills?  sure...is possession and building out of the back a skill...no, it's a strategy and it's game/opponent dependent.  I get what you are saying and generally agree.  

The resources available at FCB to develop skills at an early age and carry it through are somewhat higher than lets say MVLA, Surf, PDA, etc.  At the end of the pipeline though, countries like spain will likely never be a perrenial finalist at the world cup or the olympics.  Even with dips in performance and transitioning from the old guard to the youngsters, the US will be hard to beat...we have too many athletes in the pipeline.  

Big, strong, fast, and skilled teams usually win out against the smaller fast, skilled teams.  Size does matter, even in soccer.  Messi is an outlier.  Defensive shape matters - have the time of your life possessing and building and switching the field.  Don't finish in the final third and that big, strong, fast, skilled team will counter you to death.  Liverpool comes to mind in the EPL - check out their shape just prior to the counter. They are really good at it, as was Arsenal back in the Wenger days.


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## Code (Jul 23, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Taxpayers of Irvine continue to pay for every soccer field and every improvement at the Great Park. Would be interesting if they started charging for the full price, instead of practically giving it away for free. And the school districts should do the same.


Did Irvine pay full price to the federal government for the land Great Park sits on?  No, they annexed it from El Toro when the base was closed?  Did Irvine pay for the development of parks space and structures, to include the fields, ice rink, stadiums, etc.?  No a public private partnership was established where private companies invested in building the park so they could also build and sell homes there.  The local special tax was created to provide the infrastructure for the park, roads and utilities.  There are no clear records of where those tax dollars are really being spent, but it is most likely not on the park, as the land and built enviornment are not a part of the cost.  Irvine was practically given Great Park for free.


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## Code (Jul 23, 2022)

outside! said:


> I thought the point of this discussion was to find ways to improve US soccer. The fragmentation I am referring to is the many upper level leagues that cause local teams to travel and prevent them from playing one another. These leagues also dilute the talent. All of these leagues exist due to a lack of non-corrupt leadership from US Soccer and their primary purpose is to funnel dollars to the leagues, not to make better soccer players. No more than 1 or 2 SoCal teams per age group should ever have a reason to travel out of SoCal. Since the vast majority of games are played at facilities funded by the taxpayers, we should be able to demand some efficiency.



These Leagues exsit because parents are giving them money.  I agree that there is no need for more than one elite league in SoCal, and local play could provide the challenge 95% of the players need.  Blaming the leagues is not the solution, it is the parents who participate in the farce.  If parents stop placing players in those teams, the leagues go away.  There are plenty of play options in SOCAL NPL and Flight 1 teams for everyone.  No need for governement oversight of youth soccer.


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## Happened again (Jul 23, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> You will need more than a new ingredient -- perhaps a new kitchen.


The kitchen is just fine - new ingredients to keep things fresh.  England is a build and possesion team.  To play like the US plays, we need athletes with skill.  Teams that rely on possession are often vulnerable.  If you can't play out or you turn the ball over as you try to adjust, the USWNT is way too athletic and skilled and will make you pay. At a minimum they just grind you down.  We've gotten older and had been unable to string an entire tournament's worth of effective effort.  Beat the high press and you isolate the back line - pretty much happened when they won bronze. Fresh ingredients will help,  keep the kitchen.


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## paytoplay (Jul 23, 2022)

Code said:


> Did Irvine pay full price to the federal government for the land Great Park sits on?  No, they annexed it from El Toro when the base was closed?  Did Irvine pay for the development of parks space and structures, to include the fields, ice rink, stadiums, etc.?  No a public private partnership was established where private companies invested in building the park so they could also build and sell homes there.  The local special tax was created to provide the infrastructure for the park, roads and utilities.  There are no clear records of where those tax dollars are really being spent, but it is most likely not on the park, as the land and built enviornment are not a part of the cost.  Irvine was practically given Great Park for free.


Wrong. It was Irvine before it became a military base, and then it was rightfully returned. Clubs are getting a massive subsidy to sell their wares, compliments Irvine taxpayers. Would be funny if they started charging $12 to park—We need more of that innovative club stuff.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 23, 2022)

Happened again said:


> I don't know how much soccer you've personally played in your life or what soccer outside of Norcal you've witnessed.   Plenty of ingredients to soccer, you could debate the details forever, tactics and strategies abound, esepcially when players get older.  Should we teach skills?  sure...is possession and building out of the back a skill...no, it's a strategy and it's game/opponent dependent.  I get what you are saying and generally agree.
> 
> The resources available at FCB to develop skills at an early age and carry it through are somewhat higher than lets say MVLA, Surf, PDA, etc.  At the end of the pipeline though, countries like spain will likely never be a perrenial finalist at the world cup or the olympics.  Even with dips in performance and transitioning from the old guard to the youngsters, the US will be hard to beat...we have too many athletes in the pipeline.
> 
> Big, strong, fast, and skilled teams usually win out against the smaller fast, skilled teams.  Size does matter, even in soccer.  Messi is an outlier.  Defensive shape matters - have the time of your life possessing and building and switching the field.  Don't finish in the final third and that big, strong, fast, skilled team will counter you to death.  Liverpool comes to mind in the EPL - check out their shape just prior to the counter. They are really good at it, as was Arsenal back in the Wenger days.


I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead.  Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable.  Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal.  But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level.  Plus family members have played abroad.  Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league).  Am I an authority?  Nope.  No more than most folks on these forums.  

I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill.  I think it's both a strategy and a skill.  Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession.  A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game".  It's just not that easy.  The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now".  Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way.  It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.

I think there is a time and a place to play directly, low block, high block, etc.  Heck even Man City will step out of their possession comfort zone depending on the opponent.  In that scenario it's a conscious decision to do so.  Unfortunately, very few youth clubs teach these skills so that players have an arsenal of options in their quiver. 

Also, Messi isn't the only "outlier".  Pretty sure Kante, Maradona, Xavi, Insigne, etc would like to have a word with you  Also it's well documented that EPL players are bigger/taller than La Liga players.  Interestingly enough, La Liga teams have fared far better in the Champions League than EPL teams over the last 20ish years.  It's really not close.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jul 24, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Spain will not become an elite women's soccer power for this reason.  They lack physical and mental alphas because their youth system drives them out of the sport.  They're stuck with circus jugglers who fold every time against the countries that bring better and more mentally tough athletes.


It's probably a lot more due to this - This was 2015, but will filter to the National team in subsequent years. Or, we can go with your explanation -  these other countries have "alpha" males and "beta" females but the US has "beta" males and "alpha" females.

According to FIFA, only about 12 percent of youth soccer players are girls. And the U.S. makes up more than half of that total, says Morris.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/02/countries-who-treat-their-women-equally-have-better-womens-soccer-teams/


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## crush (Jul 24, 2022)

@kickingandscreaming and @NorCalDad- The last game I saw that had two girls teams buy into possession was Deza'a Quakes v my dd old Surf team in 2017. It was beautiful to watch and I thought it would help change the way ALL the girls played this sport. Both GK's NEVER punted the ball and always worked from the back and try and work it up the field. The girls on my dd team bought into this style 18 months prior. The rules were simple: Pass the ball within three touches and then run. Triangle offense so to speak and wear your opponent down or find the bench next to coach to learn how to share the rock and not be a ball hog. CM's 100% had to buy in or it won't work and thank God they did. My dd got nice assists from them and we won the Natty. The girls before this were taught "Smash Ball" and "get out of way" kind of the play. Big, fast, athletic and tough as nails players and super strong willed. Kickball and Rugby all in one. Dangerous and not how the game should be played for females, moo.  I ran into a top coach and he said it won't work in college unless you get recruited to Stanford and I teach the girls to be prepared for the Truth, which is college smash ball. If you have to win, then you do whatever it takes to win. MVLA was also a very good posssion team. I told that coach no way my dd would have made it in your system of direct kickball. Hopefully some day the game can change for the safety of all the girls. I just got word of another ACL injury.


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## Happened again (Jul 24, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead.  Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable.  Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal.  But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level.  Plus family members have played abroad.  Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league).  Am I an authority?  Nope.  No more than most folks on these forums.
> 
> I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill.  I think it's both a strategy and a skill.  Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession.  A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game".  It's just not that easy.  The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now".  Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way.  It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.
> 
> ...


I certainly appreciate your response and thanks for providing a bit of personal info, provides context to your position.  I too shall share a bit... - I played through college, as did hubby (he's on here from time to time), then moved on to professional life and kids.

We'll agree to disagree, possession is a strategy that requires skills (first touch comes to mind, amongst others).  As far as the CL is concerned, Real Madrid has certainly been a dominant force...but take a peek at their roster size along their back line.  I'm sure Kante and others would have objected to my statement and meant no disrespect.  Messi remains an outlier in modern times. 

club soccer in the US is a money making venture, that won't ever change.  Find a club that teaches skills and prioritizes development. Figure out which direction (if any) your kid wants to go, then go from there.  US soccer will do their own thing - I focus on the women's side, the men's side will never move beyond knock out rounds but should be more fun to watch in the coming years.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> @GoldenGate I generally like your posts, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about in this case.  I know this thread is about the woman's side, but let's take a step back for a moment.  Do you think direct play / bully ball works on the men's side 100% of the time?  I would hope your answer here would be a resounding "no".  My point is, once the European teams dial in girl's side, the USWNT will be playing catch up.  In soccer there's not much more embarrassing than watching a bunch of "alphas" getting schooled by much smarter players.  Not unlike that PDA vs FCB game posted earlier -- those "alphas" were schooled big time.  So much so, I don't even know how to define "alpha" anymore.
> 
> In Spain the coaches loath juggling exercises -- they prize thinking and decision making.  The US clubs I'm familiar with spend way too much time on juggling, especially when said club just plays boot ball anyway.  Juggling in the US is just a time killer for many coaches.


I was not talking about men's soccer.  The fact that you think they're the same sport and should therefore be played the same way is misogynistic and naive.  

You are seriously relying on a club game played by two girls teams as proof that the USWNT, winner of two straight WCs and half the WCs ever played, should start playing like a country that has never won a knockout stage game in its life? What a joke.  You watched one soccer game played between a regional US club team and what is presumably the finest players that Spain has to offer all consolidated on one team and constantly training together, and you conclude that Spain knows what is going on?  Seriously?

Can you tell me how many of those PDA girls will leverage their ability to play soccer into college opportunity and scholarships?  What do you think those Barca girls will all be doing when they're 19? How many of the PDA kids will be better off as adults because of their soccer compared to the Barca players? You have not clue what the point of elite club soccer even is.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Let's circle back in 10 years and see where this lands.  I think there are many competent coaches in the US that agree with my perspective here.  Unfortunately the spin cycle will continue on, especially if the general opinion is "I think our position as the premier women's soccer country in the world is secure".


You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan.  You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history.  If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you.  The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years.  That's it.  If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US.  You are an idiot.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I was not talking about men's soccer.  The fact that you think they're the same sport and should therefore be played the same way is misogynistic and naive.
> 
> You are seriously relying on a club game played by two girls teams as proof that the USWNT, winner of two straight WCs and half the WCs ever played, should start playing like a country that has never won a knockout stage game in its life? What a joke.  You watched one soccer game played between a regional US club team and what is presumably the finest players that Spain has to offer all consolidated on one team and constantly training together, and you conclude that Spain knows what is going on?  Seriously?
> 
> Can you tell me how many of those PDA girls will leverage their ability to play soccer into college opportunity and scholarships?  What do you think those Barca girls will all be doing when they're 19? How many of the PDA kids will be better off as adults because of their soccer compared to the Barca players? You have not clue what the point of elite club soccer even is.


Yes, @GoldenGate it was just one video that convinced me that we need to change everything.  You nailed it.  I have watched MANY games in person and online at pretty much every level.  I do agree with you the woman's side is almost a completely different sport than the men's side.  In fact this likely explains why there is a higher rate of concussions on the woman's side.  

I think every single one of those girls on the FCB team could land on a D1 roster if that's the path they wanted to take.  This is already what happens on the mens side.  As I said earlier, I think the collegiate approach to athletics in the US is much better for the masses than the academy approach in Europe -- purely from the perspective that not everyone will go pro and will actually need an education. 

Like I said earlier -- let's circle back in 10 years and see where things land.


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## Happened again (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan.  You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history.  If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you.  The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years.  That's it.  If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US.  You are an idiot.


you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You were saying this 10 years ago with Japan.  You were saying this 6 years ago even with Spain, and they still have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament in their history.  If anyone is on spin cycle, it's you.  The one thing that makes one country consistently better than another at a sport is that more kids play it at a high level over a longer span of years.  That's it.  If you had your way, you would take that advantage away from the US.  You are an idiot.


I never said any of those things -- I've only been on this site for a couple of years.  

That said, a good exercise might be to go watch the Spanish woman's side play 10 years ago versus today.  Is there a difference?  I may dig into this later when I have some time.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

Happened again said:


> you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.


I've always said @GoldenGate is a master of words.  Even when it's targeted at me I can appreciate the word smithing.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I played at a high level through high school in SoCal. Had several D1/D2 offers but declined to play in order to focus on academics instead.  Plus that was all pre-MLS, so the path to pro wasn't as obvious -- or really desirable.  Let's face it too, US soccer in the 80s was pretty abysmal.  But I have played pickup/fun in both Spain and Brasil with locals so I've seen the contrast even at that level.  Plus family members have played abroad.  Outside of that I've read all the popular soccer books you all have and probably clock in the same number of hours watching professional soccer (if it's on TV I will watch it -- couldn't care less which league).  Am I an authority?  Nope.  No more than most folks on these forums.
> 
> I disagree with you that playing possession is not a skill.  I think it's both a strategy and a skill.  Heck there are methodologies that completely focus on the foundations necessary to play possession.  A coach can't simply say "hey let's play possession this game".  It's just not that easy.  The reason we don't teach this in the US is because it's hard and requires parents and players to not care about "win-now".  Players make a ton of mistakes initially when learning how to play this way.  It's just hard and takes massive amounts of patience.
> 
> ...


It makes perfect sense if you were an "elite" American soccer player back in the day.  Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports.  They have lived their entire lives with chips on their shoulders, deluding themselves that they were athletes too, but the reality is they couldn't hold a candle to the real athletes who excelled at basketball, football and even baseball.  They try to make themselves feel better by rationalizing that soccer is "special" because it requires tremendous skill but other sports don't, and now they carry that delusion forward because they're desperate for their middling level athlete princess to be "elite" too.  The reality, however, is that other sports require every bit as much skill as soccer, and the vast majority of boys who played it back in the 1980s would have been in the chess club if soccer had been where the real athletes gravitated. The reality is that the genetic limitations that people like you gifted to your daughters will prevent them from becoming truly elite soccer players no matter how much "technical skill" and "classroom knowledge" they pick up.

You're also never going to realize that men's and women's soccer are two completely different sports, are you? Although the fields are the same size, they are actually significantly larger for women because men are faster and stronger overall.  This puts more of a premium on differences in pure athleticism, which is more important on the women's side than the men's and it always will.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I never said any of those things -- I've only been on this site for a couple of years.
> 
> That said, a good exercise might be to go watch the Spanish woman's side play 10 years ago versus today.  Is there a difference?  I may dig into this later when I have some time.


I never said you said those things here.  You've been saying them to yourself and your friends for over a decade.  You know you have. 

10 years ago when Spain was terrible they had just as many knockout stage wins as they do now that they're so great.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I never said you said those things here.  You've been saying them to yourself and your friends for over a decade.  You know you have.
> 
> 10 years ago when Spain was terrible they had just as many knockout stage wins as they do now that they're so great.


Nope I haven't.  I probably started to think about it a bit about 3 years ago as I got deeper into this.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

Happened again said:


> you must be very small - so angry, so entertaining.


I'm not angry.  I love the USWNT.  I love the way youth soccer works in the US.  I love how girls here have the ability to play soccer at every conceivable level and price point.  I love how girls can use soccer to leverage college opportunity and scholarships unlike in every other country in the world.  I'm not whining that youth soccer costs what it costs, I'm not whining that the USWNT isn't pretty enough, I'm not the one complaining about how America sucks compared to countries that actually do suck.  I'm not complaining about terrible coaching, or corrupt DOCs, or any of that nonsense.  It's all you and your friends.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> It makes perfect sense if you were an "elite" American soccer player back in the day.  Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports.  They have lived their entire lives with chips on their shoulders, deluding themselves that they were athletes too, but the reality is they couldn't hold a candle to the real athletes who excelled at basketball, football and even baseball.  They try to make themselves feel better by rationalizing that soccer is "special" because it requires tremendous skill but other sports don't, and now they carry that delusion forward because they're desperate for their middling level athlete princess to be "elite" too.  The reality, however, is that other sports require every bit as much skill as soccer, and the vast majority of boys who played it back in the 1980s would have been in the chess club if soccer had been where the real athletes gravitated. The reality is that the genetic limitations that people like you gifted to your daughters will prevent them from becoming truly elite soccer players no matter how much "technical skill" and "classroom knowledge" they pick up.
> 
> You're also never going to realize that men's and women's soccer are two completely different sports, are you? Although the fields are the same size, they are actually significantly larger for women because men are faster and stronger overall.  This puts more of a premium on differences in pure athleticism, which is more important on the women's side than the men's and it always will.


 

Actually my primary sport was baseball. I also don't think there's any truth to this "Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports". Not a single player I played with sought soccer because they couldn't play anything else -- most were multi-sport, some would later go onto MLS in the early days (I played into the early 90s -- but the lions share of my soccer experience was in the 80s). 

I get it.  You like things are how they are.  You don't want to see any change.  That's great.  I disagree.  I think we need to evolve and demand higher quality coaching and the parents/players need to reset their expectations between development and "win-now".  Indeed I struggle with the instant gratification of "boot ball".  Maybe I'm wrong, but only time will tell.


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## Happened again (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I'm not angry.  I love the USWNT.  I love the way youth soccer works in the US.  I love how girls here have the ability to play soccer at every conceivable level and price point.  I love how girls can use soccer to leverage college opportunity and scholarships unlike in every other country in the world.  I'm not whining that youth soccer costs what it costs, I'm not whining that the USWNT isn't pretty enough, I'm not the one complaining about how America sucks compared to countries that actually do suck.  I'm not complaining about terrible coaching, or corrupt DOCs, or any of that nonsense.  It's all you and your friends.


what you are is a complete idiot. I 100% agree in principle with what you are saying.  Doesn't detract from the fact that you are an idiot and the forum clown.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

This was a timely episode of Coach Cameron's podcast:


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## outside! (Jul 25, 2022)

Code said:


> These Leagues exsit because parents are giving them money.  I agree that there is no need for more than one elite league in SoCal, and local play could provide the challenge 95% of the players need.  Blaming the leagues is not the solution, it is the parents who participate in the farce.  If parents stop placing players in those teams, the leagues go away.  There are plenty of play options in SOCAL NPL and Flight 1 teams for everyone.  No need for governement oversight of youth soccer.


So you are asking parents to sacrifice the few short years an upper tier player has to train and be seen by scouts in order to somehow bring down the corrupt system that is US youth soccer? it is no coincidence that upper management of ECNL and US Soccer have many people in common. I am not asking for government oversight, but it is obvious that the primary focus of US Soccer right now is making money for a handful of connected individuals instead of producing the best soccer players. CSL had it's problems, but an expanded CSL for all of SoCal would concentrate the best players and in the end produce better soccer players.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Actually my primary sport was baseball. I also don't think there's any truth to this "Virtually ever boy who played soccer into their HS years did so because they weren't good enough to play real sports". Not a single player I played with sought soccer because they couldn't play anything else -- most were multi-sport, some would later go onto MLS in the early days (I played into the early 90s -- but the lions share of my soccer experience was in the 80s).
> 
> I get it.  You like things are how they are.  You don't want to see any change.  That's great.  I disagree.  I think we need to evolve and demand higher quality coaching and the parents/players need to reset their expectations between development and "win-now".  Indeed I struggle with the instant gratification of "boot ball".  Maybe I'm wrong, but only time will tell.


I am a big fan of change and, despite all of your rhetoric, things have changed significantly and are changing constantly with girls soccer.  ECNL has developed from nothing into something great, and it has even recently changed some of its format.  Girls soccer has gone from a pastime to serious business that includes professional youth coaches providing professional training.  Girls soccer has become much stronger in many parts of the country where it used to be crap.  GDA came and went.  GA came (and will probably go too).  HS has gone from a necessity to not-so-much.  NIL has recently come into existence.  NWSL's CBA has significantly improved standards and (although I personally think it's a terrible idea), they'll even let little kiddies play in the league.   The new USSF CBA has further improved standards for women, and the old misogynists who were trying to treat girls soccer as if it were boys soccer were all run out.  All of this has allowed the US to stay the best in the world.

Also, despite your assertion that youth coaching isn't good enough, the reality is it is far and away superior to what you see in other countries.  You just don't appreciate it because you are too cheap to see the good coaching in action, and also because you don't know what good coaching is and  what effective winning soccer looks like. You don't understand that good coaching requires keeping as many talented kids as possible interested in the sport, rather than bleeding the desire to play out of everyone by making them dribble through cones all day, every day.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 25, 2022)

outside! said:


> So you are asking parents to sacrifice the few short years an upper tier player has to train and be seen by scouts in order to somehow bring down the corrupt system that is US youth soccer? it is no coincidence that upper management of ECNL and US Soccer have many people in common. I am not asking for government oversight, but it is obvious that the primary focus of US Soccer right now is making money for a handful of connected individuals instead of producing the best soccer players. CSL had it's problems, but an expanded CSL for all of SoCal would concentrate the best players and in the end produce better soccer players.


There is no "system that is US youth soccer".  There are a multitude of different platforms at every conceivable price point and which include thousands of independent clubs, agencies, leagues, and schools.  It's offensive to the tens of thousands of hard working adults who are involved in youth soccer when people like you denigrate all of them by labeling all of them part of some monolithic system that is rotten to the core. 

So who exactly are these handful of "connected individuals" whom US Soccer is spending all its time making money for?  And how much money exactly is it making for them? And who exactly at US Soccer is making these "corrupt" decisions?  Can you identify the specific people at US Soccer who are responsible for causing all this corruption in youth soccer?  Can you even tell us what they're doing that is so "corrupt"?


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## NorCalDad (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I am a big fan of change and, despite all of your rhetoric, things have changed significantly and are changing constantly with girls soccer.  ECNL has developed from nothing into something great, and it has even recently changed some of its format.  Girls soccer has gone from a pastime to serious business that includes professional youth coaches providing professional training.  Girls soccer has become much stronger in many parts of the country where it used to be crap.  GDA came and went.  GA came (and will probably go too).  HS has gone from a necessity to not-so-much.  NIL has recently come into existence.  NWSL's CBA has significantly improved standards and (although I personally think it's a terrible idea), they'll even let little kiddies play in the league.   The new USSF CBA has further improved standards for women, and the old misogynists who were trying to treat girls soccer as if it were boys soccer were all run out.  All of this has allowed the US to stay the best in the world.
> 
> Also, despite your assertion that youth coaching isn't good enough, the reality is it is far and away superior to what you see in other countries.  You just don't appreciate it because you are too cheap to see the good coaching in action, and also because you don't know what good coaching is and  what effective winning soccer looks like. You don't understand that good coaching requires keeping as many talented kids as possible interested in the sport, rather than bleeding the desire to play out of everyone by making them dribble through cones all day, every day.


The things you mention aren't really innovations.  Girls soccer was strong in SoCal for as long as I can remember.  They had girls club teams back in the early 90s and perhaps even before that (NHB comes to mind).  There were just as many girls playing rec/ayso at age 5-7 as boys.  High school girls soccer back then was a big deal too.  But fair point, perhaps other parts of the country didn't have that.  The rest of what you mention really isn't tied to development and in fact just perpetuates the win-now mindset.  

I'm too cheap to see good coaching in action?  What does that even mean?  I've seen good coaching.  I've seen coaches that state clearly the goal is development over win-now and they hold the team and themselves accountable to achieve that.  This doesn't mean they don't try to win, more often than not they win a lot -- but not at the expense of development by resorting to boot ball.  Dribbling through cones all day is precisely what I'm against.  That statement alone makes it clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about.  Read up on TOVO and other similar methodologies that emphasize decision making / cognition and come back here.  After you learn what all that means, go watch a bunch of ECNL U14 or older girls games and tell me how many coaches are actually emphasizing those elements.  There aren't many.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> The things you mention aren't really innovations.  Girls soccer was strong in SoCal for as long as I can remember.  They had girls club teams back in the early 90s and perhaps even before that (NHB comes to mind).  There were just as many girls playing rec/ayso at age 5-7 as boys.  High school girls soccer back then was a big deal too.  But fair point, perhaps other parts of the country didn't have that.  The rest of what you mention really isn't tied to development and in fact just perpetuates the win-now mindset.
> 
> I'm too cheap to see good coaching in action?  What does that even mean?  I've seen good coaching.  I've seen coaches that state clearly the goal is development over win-now and they hold the team and themselves accountable to achieve that.  This doesn't mean they don't try to win, more often than not they win a lot -- but not at the expense of development by resorting to boot ball.  Dribbling through cones all day is precisely what I'm against.  That statement alone makes it clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about.  Read up on TOVO and other similar methodologies that emphasize decision making / cognition and come back here.  After you learn what all that means, go watch a bunch of ECNL U14 or older girls games and tell me how many coaches are actually emphasizing those elements.  There aren't many.


Sucker.  TOVO is one of many fringe soccer cults that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself.  Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great.  I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development".  The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic.  If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half.  In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin.  It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD.  Wow, that is just so incredible.  Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros?  Maybe they could have also gone to USD.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Sucker.  TOVO is one of many fringe soccer cults that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself.  Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great.  I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development".  The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic.  If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half.  In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin.  It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD.  Wow, that is just so incredible.  Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros?  Maybe they could have also gone to USD.


Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching 

You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology.  They have training programs for coaches (remote and local)  that are reasonably priced.  Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question)  TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about.  Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube?  Let me know how that goes.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching
> 
> You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology.  They have training programs for coaches (remote and local)  that are reasonably priced.  Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question)  TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.
> 
> Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about.  Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube?  Let me know how that goes.


What? So now you're saying many American coaches actually do use this TOVO cult nonsense and other "methodologies" that you approve?  So now you're saying that only "a lot" but not all (or most) girls youth coaches are terrible?  So are you now admitting that the USofA actually does have the richest, most diverse set of options of any country in the entire world?  Then WTF are you complaining about if little girls can get this vaunted TOVO training that will help them get into USD, or they can do something else like what Macario and Girma did to get into Stanford? Or what Trinity Rodman did to just go pro? Or just play for fun, or some combination of fun and comp that doesn't require wasting hours a week learning the "cognitive" aspects of team play that they "need" to make the idiotic decision to be a pro soccer player who makes $30,000 a year instead of going to college?

So, anyway, I take it your daughter spurned full rides from Stanford and UCLA to play for Barca?  I mean, if anyone has such superior knowledge of how to turn middling athletes into the best players the world has every seen, it must be you, right?


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## paytoplay (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> *Sucker*.  TOVO is one of many fringe *soccer cults* that are out to fleece weak-minded "soccer people" like yourself.  Its website (much of which is so pathetic that many of the links don't work), is just so great.  I mean, little girls totally "need to understand the game like never before", and it is such a blessing that the TOVO Academy will teach it to them using "sound pedagogical principles and based upon profound research into human development".  The fact that going to their vaunted academy costs more than 19,000 euros is just so fantastic.  If only kiddie soccer for girls in the U.S. could be that expensive, the USWNT would be able to turn around its terrible run of form over the last decade and a half.  In fact, TOVO has such a track record of success, that I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to shell out that much coin.  It's own website has a testimonial section with a grand total of one girl, who allegedly parlayed the boatload of cash that her parents forked over to gain admission to USD.  Wow, that is just so incredible.  Can you imagine how much better Macario, Rodman, Smith, Girma and boatloads of others could have been if only they learned from the proprietary training methods one can only get in Spain for 20,000 euros?  Maybe they could have also gone to USD.


I agree. What is the pay to play club soccer system in America? It’s one big soccer cult. Full of suckers! Thanks.


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## MacDre (Jul 26, 2022)

@GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position.  Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.

Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals.  This is not about athleticism or lack there of.  This isn’t about access to college.  Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals.  (emphasis added).

My kid defines bully ball as:  players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> What? So now you're saying many American coaches actually do use this TOVO cult nonsense and other "methodologies" that you approve?  So now you're saying that only "a lot" but not all (or most) girls youth coaches are terrible?  So are you now admitting that the USofA actually does have the richest, most diverse set of options of any country in the entire world?  Then WTF are you complaining about if little girls can get this vaunted TOVO training that will help them get into USD, or they can do something else like what Macario and Girma did to get into Stanford? Or what Trinity Rodman did to just go pro? Or just play for fun, or some combination of fun and comp that doesn't require wasting hours a week learning the "cognitive" aspects of team play that they "need" to make the idiotic decision to be a pro soccer player who makes $30,000 a year instead of going to college?
> 
> So, anyway, I take it your daughter spurned full rides from Stanford and UCLA to play for Barca?  I mean, if anyone has such superior knowledge of how to turn middling athletes into the best players the world has every seen, it must be you, right?


Your writing skills are amazing.  Reading comprehension, on the other hand, needs some work. 

I bet if you look at the bios of coaches at various clubs you will eventually find one with something like "TOVO Academy Coaching Course Certificate".  It will be right after any USSF or UEFA accreditations a coach might have.  To be clear "many" does not equal "most" or "all".   Also, as I said,  I have no idea if coaches that received said certificate actually put that training to use.  The spin cycle we're in might just make that too difficult to do.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 26, 2022)

MacDre said:


> @GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position.  Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.
> 
> Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals.  This is not about athleticism or lack there of.  This isn’t about access to college.  Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals.  (emphasis added).
> 
> My kid defines bully ball as:  players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.


Thanks @MacDre -- you said it much more succinctly than I ever could.


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## outside! (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> There is no "system that is US youth soccer".  There are a multitude of different platforms at every conceivable price point and which include thousands of independent clubs, agencies, leagues, and schools.  It's offensive to the tens of thousands of hard working adults who are involved in youth soccer when people like you denigrate all of them by labeling all of them part of some monolithic system that is rotten to the core.
> 
> So who exactly are these handful of "connected individuals" whom US Soccer is spending all its time making money for?  And how much money exactly is it making for them? And who exactly at US Soccer is making these "corrupt" decisions?  Can you identify the specific people at US Soccer who are responsible for causing all this corruption in youth soccer?  Can you even tell us what they're doing that is so "corrupt"?


I am guessing you either haven't been around long or weren't paying attention during the formation of ECNL and it's exclusionary tactics, the conflicts between US Club Soccer and USYS, the birth and death of DA or how individuals high up in ECNL became high up in USYS to oversee the death of DA (not that I was a fan of DA). The facts are that upper level youth soccer is monopolistic and forces unnecessary travel costs on families and by doing so excludes potentially high level players. CSL Premier was a better system and I believe would produce a larger quantity of high level female soccer players.


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## crush (Jul 26, 2022)

It's time to just lay it all out today. We need a new league in Socal. I would call it, "Southern California Possession League." SCPL is for players who want to learn the game the right way. Somehow Bullyball, Smashball and Kickball took over and I know why. We would have best the best and girls would be safe and learn how to play the game. The rest of the best can go play in the Elite Club National League and travel all over the country. I see a light at the end of the tunnel. Gr8t stuff @MacDre. I see you bro


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

outside! said:


> I am guessing you either haven't been around long or weren't paying attention during the formation of ECNL and it's exclusionary tactics, the conflicts between US Club Soccer and USYS, the birth and death of DA or how individuals high up in ECNL became high up in USYS to oversee the death of DA (not that I was a fan of DA). The facts are that upper level youth soccer is monopolistic and forces unnecessary travel costs on families and by doing so excludes potentially high level players. CSL Premier was a better system and I believe would produce a larger quantity of high level female soccer players.


You have not identified a single corrupt anything by anyone.  You also don't understand what a monopoly is.  You also seem to fail to understand that no one is forcing anything on you.  All you're doing is whining that you can't have everything you want without having to pay what it costs to have it. If the CSL Premier that you loved so much were a better system, it would be the better system.  Instead, it was a cheap ass structure that suppressed the ability of the best youth clubs to hire and retain quality professional coaches, which also suppressed the ability of parents to maximize their kid's soccer ability to leverage into college opportunity.  But no fear, the cheap-ass local leagues you love still exist, so you have nothing to worry about - other than the best and most committed families and coaches no longer continue propping up the riff raff.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

MacDre said:


> @GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position.  Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.
> 
> Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals.  This is not about athleticism or lack there of.  This isn’t about access to college.  Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals.  (emphasis added).
> 
> My kid defines bully ball as:  players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.


You can add lack of creativity and usage of IQ.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

MacDre said:


> @GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position.  Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.
> 
> Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals.  This is not about athleticism or lack there of.  This isn’t about access to college.  Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals.  (emphasis added).
> 
> My kid defines bully ball as:  players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.


No, I understand quite well what he is saying.  This whole idea that girls kiddie soccer is rampant with "bully ball" and lacking in fundamentals compared to other countries is utter nonsense.  There are far more youth clubs in the US than anywhere else in the world that are committed to high level development of players.  Seriously, there isn't a single person here who has been able to name a single foreign youth girls coach in the entire world who is better than any of a number of coaches here.  I doubt they can even name two youth clubs in the entire country of Spain that aren't shit compared to probably 30 clubs in the US.  They all live in a fantasyland in which they think European countries are a utopia for excellence in youth soccer, because they don't see what any of it is really like.  They whine about pay to play but have nothing to say when they learn that TOVO costs 20,000 euros, and girls youth academies actually cost 16,000 euros.  They have nothing to say when they learn that there are a grand total of maybe twenty 20-year old Spanish women playing competitive soccer, but 10,000 American women.   

The truth is there will always be little girls who attack a player instead of the ball, or shoulder barge, or push with both hands.  This will happen everywhere in the world where kiddie soccer is played, including where this TOVO nonsense exists.  The reason is that soccer is - and should be - accessible at all levels.  Especially at lower levels, you will always have players who don't share the same sensibilities as the soccer cheapskates here who want everyone to play "beautiful" soccer but don't want to pay what it costs.  The other truth is that "bully soccer", as these emotionally soft people characterize it, is not a real problem in elite youth girls soccer.  Occasionally kids get crunched, and that is life playing sports. If you want to bubble wrap your kid, go for it.   But if they're whining that Macario cleaned their daughter's clock, or Blues punished their kid's team physically, or Rodman "mugged" their little princess of the ball, too bad.  That isn't a bullying, it isn't a lack of development, it is only tough and effective soccer.  If their kids can't take it, they can go ahead and play like the Spanish losers who constantly get bullied on set pieces by real "technical" players who understand that taking advantage of their physical ability is far more important than passing the ball around until everyone gets bored to death.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Maybe it's you that's too cheap to experience good coaching
> 
> You don't have to go to the TOVO Academy/Institute to experience the methodology.  They have training programs for coaches (remote and local)  that are reasonably priced.  Many coaches in the US have done just that (whether or not they implement the methodology is a different question)  TOVO isn't the be-end-be-all for soccer training, but it shifts the mindset to focus on decision making and less time on repetitive brain dead drills that a lot, if not most, coaches implement.
> 
> Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have no idea what you're talking about.  Did you get a chance to watch some games on youtube?  Let me know how that goes.


Yes, I watched a few games on youtube.  Specifically, the USWNT beating the shit out of just about everyone they have played over the course of a decade.  Also watched Spain gets its ass handed to it by England and Germany. 

When do you think the girls youth soccer utopia of Spain will finally capitalize on the TOVO training - that its army of youth coaches each paid 5,000 euros for - with its first ever knockout stage win in a tournament?  There is no better way to prove the effectiveness of a training program than results, right? If only American youth soccer coaches could teach skills like how to repeatedly fail on set pieces and in the air, how to repeatedly turn the ball over after boring everyone to death with 20 useless ineffective passes around the back, and how to take the alpha out of the player.  

If only meanies like Ertz, and Horan, and Lloyd, and Mewis, and Sauerbrunn, and Dahlkemper, and Macario, and Rodman, and Press, and Morgan, and Rapinoe would just play more polite "beautiful" soccer instead of using their superior athletic ability to actually get things done.  If only we could take away their will to win by subjecting them to 17 modules of online TOVO at $2,000 a pop.


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## MacDre (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> No, I understand quite well what he is saying.  This whole idea that girls kiddie soccer is rampant with "bully ball" and lacking in fundamentals compared to other countries is utter nonsense.  There are far more youth clubs in the US than anywhere else in the world that are committed to high level development of players.  Seriously, there isn't a single person here who has been able to name a single foreign youth girls coach in the entire world who is better than any of a number of coaches here.  I doubt they can even name two youth clubs in the entire country of Spain that aren't shit compared to probably 30 clubs in the US.  They all live in a fantasyland in which they think European countries are a utopia for excellence in youth soccer, because they don't see what any of it is really like.  They whine about pay to play but have nothing to say when they learn that TOVO costs 20,000 euros, and girls youth academies actually cost 16,000 euros.  They have nothing to say when they learn that there are a grand total of maybe twenty 20-year old Spanish women playing competitive soccer, but 10,000 American women.
> 
> The truth is there will always be little girls who attack a player instead of the ball, or shoulder barge, or push with both hands.  This will happen everywhere in the world where kiddie soccer is played, including where this TOVO nonsense exists.  The reason is that soccer is - and should be - accessible at all levels.  Especially at lower levels, you will always have players who don't share the same sensibilities as the soccer cheapskates here who want everyone to play "beautiful" soccer but don't want to pay what it costs.  The other truth is that "bully soccer", as these emotionally soft people characterize it, is not a real problem in elite youth girls soccer.  Occasionally kids get crunched, and that is life playing sports. If you want to bubble wrap your kid, go for it.   But if they're whining that Macario cleaned their daughter's clock, or Blues punished their kid's team physically, or Rodman "mugged" their little princess of the ball, too bad.  That isn't a bullying, it isn't a lack of development, it is only tough and effective soccer.  If their kids can't take it, they can go ahead and play like the Spanish losers who constantly get bullied on set pieces by real "technical" players who understand that taking advantage of their physical ability is far more important than passing the ball around until everyone gets bored to death.


Do you think the Spaniards could negate our physical advantage by boxing out?


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## GoldenGate (Jul 26, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Do you think the Spaniards could negate our physical advantage by boxing out?


No.  Go watch Spain get "bullied" by England and Germany on headers that led to goals in their two Euros losses.  You will see.  You may as well be asking Chris Dudley to box out Shaq.  Google that when you're done watching Spain helplessly flail against physically superior opponents.  But it's not just headers.  Spain repeatedly gets outworked and muscled off the ball by bigger, stronger faster opponents when it matters. There is no amount of "technical skill" to make up for a relative lack of athleticism.  And Spain will never have the athletes because girls youth soccer there is crap.


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## outside! (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You have not identified a single corrupt anything by anyone.  You also don't understand what a monopoly is.  You also seem to fail to understand that no one is forcing anything on you.  All you're doing is whining that you can't have everything you want without having to pay what it costs to have it. If the CSL Premier that you loved so much were a better system, it would be the better system.  Instead, it was a cheap ass structure that suppressed the ability of the best youth clubs to hire and retain quality professional coaches, which also suppressed the ability of parents to maximize their kid's soccer ability to leverage into college opportunity.  But no fear, the cheap-ass local leagues you love still exist, so you have nothing to worry about - other than the best and most committed families and coaches no longer continue propping up the riff raff.


You have not refuted a single one of my arguments. I don't have time to look up the boards of directors of various organizations from years past and unfortunately I am not good at remembering names. Before DA, Surf was the only ECNL club in SD county and Surf teams rarely played the top local teams because when they did, they were not dominant. ECNL/Surf were an effective monopoly in SD County. That story was repeated in other parts of the country. Of course once GDA was formed, ECNL let in lots of clubs in desperation. ECNL is just lucky GDA was poorly managed (and CSL for that matter). The battle between ECNL and GDA was nothing more than a turf battle between grumpy old men with grudges against one another and many players got caught in between. The success of any club or team has more to do with the players than they get credit for.

You also have not offered any defense for all the unnecessary travel other than to insult people that are not fortunate enough to afford the costs. 

For the record, I do think the USWNT is the best in the world and and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. As you say, we have a huge advantage of numbers. I just think US women's soccer could be even better if we provided a more inclusive environment for a greater percentage of our population.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

outside! said:


> You have not refuted a single one of my arguments. I don't have time to look up the boards of directors of various organizations from years past and unfortunately I am not good at remembering names. Before DA, Surf was the only ECNL club in SD county and Surf teams rarely played the top local teams because when they did, they were not dominant. ECNL/Surf were an effective monopoly in SD County. That story was repeated in other parts of the country. Of course once GDA was formed, ECNL let in lots of clubs in desperation. ECNL is just lucky GDA was poorly managed (and CSL for that matter). The battle between ECNL and GDA was nothing more than a turf battle between grumpy old men with grudges against one another and many players got caught in between. The success of any club or team has more to do with the players than they get credit for.
> 
> You also have not offered any defense for all the unnecessary travel other than to insult people that are not fortunate enough to afford the costs.
> 
> For the record, I do think the USWNT is the best in the world and and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. As you say, we have a huge advantage of numbers. I just think US women's soccer could be even better if we provided a more inclusive environment for a greater percentage of our population.


It does matter if you disagree or agree with "it'. It will always disagree with you.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 26, 2022)

outside! said:


> I am guessing you either haven't been around long or weren't paying attention during the formation of ECNL and it's exclusionary tactics, the conflicts between US Club Soccer and USYS, the birth and death of DA or how individuals high up in ECNL became high up in USYS to oversee the death of DA (not that I was a fan of DA). The facts are that upper level youth soccer is monopolistic and forces unnecessary travel costs on families and by doing so excludes potentially high level players. CSL Premier was a better system and I believe would produce a larger quantity of high level female soccer players.


I have cut GG also known as EOL or to us all POS off for some time. However, I think GDA is still better than ECNL for a few simple principles. Skip the HS argument, it is BS. For so many reasons! GDA had a plan that encouraged creative and intelligent soccer,. Those few individuals that created it left for different ventures. Those that came in to run US Soccer either wanted to cut costs or disagreed with DA. I can name them later. They had an agenda. ECNL runs on a shoe string. Does not really hold anyone accountable for anything, ever! GG don't bother responding. I dont give a shit and can't see if you did. Outside repesct you. But, I see the game being managed outside (no pun intended) from what it should be and not what is now.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 27, 2022)

outside! said:


> You have not refuted a single one of my arguments. I don't have time to look up the boards of directors of various organizations from years past and unfortunately I am not good at remembering names. Before DA, Surf was the only ECNL club in SD county and Surf teams rarely played the top local teams because when they did, they were not dominant. ECNL/Surf were an effective monopoly in SD County. That story was repeated in other parts of the country. Of course once GDA was formed, ECNL let in lots of clubs in desperation. ECNL is just lucky GDA was poorly managed (and CSL for that matter). The battle between ECNL and GDA was nothing more than a turf battle between grumpy old men with grudges against one another and many players got caught in between. The success of any club or team has more to do with the players than they get credit for.
> 
> You also have not offered any defense for all the unnecessary travel other than to insult people that are not fortunate enough to afford the costs.
> 
> For the record, I do think the USWNT is the best in the world and and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. As you say, we have a huge advantage of numbers. I just think US women's soccer could be even better if we provided a more inclusive environment for a greater percentage of our population.


You accuse youth soccer of being corrupt but can't point to a single instance of corruption by a single person because you're not good at names? I see.

I have defended the amount of travel in ECNL many times whiner.  The amount of travel in ECNL is absolutely the perfect amount of travel.  How do I know that?  Because ECNL is wildly successful, and because there are many, many other options available to everyone at every price point if they don't want to pay what it costs.  Because showcases provide kids with opportunities to be seen and recruited by colleges all over the country.  Because traveling is fun up until it is too much.  Because families who can't afford a little travel don't have any business engaging in an indulgent activity they can't afford.  You may as well be whining that it is unfair that every household in America doesn't have a free Steinway in the parlor, that they don't even have a parlor.  

I love how people like you keep claiming soccer should just be more inclusive.  Sure, Ferrari dealerships should also be more inclusive and just pass them out like candy to poor people too, right?  In reality, youth soccer exists at every conceivable price point, but playing elite girls soccer is an expensive indulgence because elite professional training at anything costs a lot of money, whether it soccer, piano, equestrian or whatever. What you really mean is that you you don't want to pay for what things cost.  But gosh, if only the US were like that soccer utopia of Spain, where high level training costs 20,000 euros at TOVO and 17,000 at Malaga.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 27, 2022)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I have cut GG also known as EOL or to us all POS off for some time. However, I think GDA is still better than ECNL for a few simple principles. Skip the HS argument, it is BS. For so many reasons! GDA had a plan that encouraged creative and intelligent soccer,. Those few individuals that created it left for different ventures. Those that came in to run US Soccer either wanted to cut costs or disagreed with DA. I can name them later. They had an agenda. ECNL runs on a shoe string. Does not really hold anyone accountable for anything, ever! GG don't bother responding. I dont give a shit and can't see if you did. Outside repesct you. But, I see the game being managed outside (no pun intended) from what it should be and not what is now.View attachment 14402


I see you are still bitter that someone spent two years telling you exactly why GDA would fail, and then it did. 

GDA had a plan that encouraged creative and intelligent soccer, eh?  What a crock of shit.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 27, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> No, I understand quite well what he is saying.  This whole idea that girls kiddie soccer is rampant with "bully ball" and lacking in fundamentals compared to other countries is utter nonsense.  There are far more youth clubs in the US than anywhere else in the world that are committed to high level development of players.  Seriously, there isn't a single person here who has been able to name a single foreign youth girls coach in the entire world who is better than any of a number of coaches here.  I doubt they can even name two youth clubs in the entire country of Spain that aren't shit compared to probably 30 clubs in the US.  They all live in a fantasyland in which they think European countries are a utopia for excellence in youth soccer, because they don't see what any of it is really like.  They whine about pay to play but have nothing to say when they learn that TOVO costs 20,000 euros, and girls youth academies actually cost 16,000 euros.  They have nothing to say when they learn that there are a grand total of maybe twenty 20-year old Spanish women playing competitive soccer, but 10,000 American women.
> 
> The truth is there will always be little girls who attack a player instead of the ball, or shoulder barge, or push with both hands.  This will happen everywhere in the world where kiddie soccer is played, including where this TOVO nonsense exists.  The reason is that soccer is - and should be - accessible at all levels.  Especially at lower levels, you will always have players who don't share the same sensibilities as the soccer cheapskates here who want everyone to play "beautiful" soccer but don't want to pay what it costs.  The other truth is that "bully soccer", as these emotionally soft people characterize it, is not a real problem in elite youth girls soccer.  Occasionally kids get crunched, and that is life playing sports. If you want to bubble wrap your kid, go for it.   But if they're whining that Macario cleaned their daughter's clock, or Blues punished their kid's team physically, or Rodman "mugged" their little princess of the ball, too bad.  That isn't a bullying, it isn't a lack of development, it is only tough and effective soccer.  If their kids can't take it, they can go ahead and play like the Spanish losers who constantly get bullied on set pieces by real "technical" players who understand that taking advantage of their physical ability is far more important than passing the ball around until everyone gets bored to death.


So much wrong in here I don't even know where to begin:

- Perhaps you don't think the girls side is capable of learning more sophisticated ways to play the game or even just build up the fundamentals as @MacDre pointed out.  Maybe you don't think girls have the coordination or have brains big enough to handle the complexities of real soccer systems,  In other threads it seemed like you've been a big advocate of equality,  maybe I've had the wrong read on you this whole time.  I personally see soccer as one of the great equalizers between the genders.  

- Maybe you also don't care that the girls side has a much higher rate concussions than the boys side. Maybe you just want to see a bunch of "alphas" collide and beat the crap out of each other. Who knows, maybe you're also a huge fan of MMA/UFC.

- People can complain about "pay-to-play" and not have an issue with the actual cost. I actually don't have a massive problem with the model, mostly because I don't see a better option in the US right now. That said, there are side effects to this model that aren't great. Fundamentally, decisions are made based on financial gains/loses and not what is in the best interest of the player and sport. That makes sense, these clubs are businesses in the end, even if they are "non-profit" organizations.

- Who's paying 20k euros for TOVO on these forums? Did I miss something?

- If/when European woman's leagues start to surpass NWSL average attendance and actually become money makers, I think that is when things will get interesting.

- You clearly haven't watched any of the U14 and older girls ECNL games on youtube.  Let me know if you want me to send you some links.  There's no shortage of them.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 27, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> So much wrong in here I don't even know where to begin:
> 
> - Perhaps you don't think the girls side is capable of learning more sophisticated ways to play the game or even just build up the fundamentals as @MacDre pointed out.  Maybe you don't think girls have the coordination or have brains big enough to handle the complexities of real soccer systems,  In other threads it seemed like you've been a big advocate of equality,  maybe I've had the wrong read on you this whole time.  I personally see soccer as one of the great equalizers between the genders.
> 
> ...


Let me get this straight.  You spend your time watching youtube videos of 13 year old girls playing soccer, and it makes you upset that so many of them aren't playing it as well as you'd like?  Are you serious?  No one has ever claimed that little girls are less capable than little boys about learning "the complexities of real soccer systems" btw.  What I am telling you is that it is a ridiculous goal for little girls to endeavor to be better soccer players and waste their time maximizing their "cognitive" understanding of the "complexities" of the "beautiful game."  They have piano lessons, horse lessons, summer camp, school, boyfriends and/or they just don't give a s**t.  But you want them spending countless hours every week on the TOVO program and soccer drills that maximize their "cognitive" understanding of the "beautiful game"? For what?  So that there are 10,000 really great American female soccer players vying to fill the same 15 slots that make more than $30,000 a year playing it?

You seem to think there is one purpose for playing little kiddie soccer and that every family in America should share it, which is that every little girl in America should be the best possible soccer player they can be. It obviously makes you sad that so many little girls just won't put in the time, effort and expense necessary to become soccer players to your satisfaction.  But the truth is they have lives and soccer is a really fucking stupid thing for a girl to spend so much time and money on in a country of opportunity like the US, with the exception of two girls in every birth year on average in the entire country who will grow up to be USWNT prospects.  And, as it turns out, those two and many more do quite nicely the way things currently work in the US, given that the USWNT is the freakin' bomb. 

Why is it so important to you that more little girls "need" to be better soccer players?  Why is it so important to you that more parents need to share your neurosis? Kiddie soccer in the US is just fine.  Those who want to be the best soccer players they can be have that opportunity, and the US already excels at producing more of the best female players in the world than any other country.  Those who want to be good enough to leverage it into college but are realistic that professional soccer is a really stupid aspiration have that opportunity.  Those who want to play for fun have that opportunity. I really think you need to take a step back and ask yourself what you're doing if you're spending your time watching 13 year old girls play soccer on youtube and upset that they aren't good enough for you.


----------



## outside! (Jul 27, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You accuse youth soccer of being corrupt but can't point to a single instance of corruption by a single person because you're not good at names? I see.
> 
> I have defended the amount of travel in ECNL many times whiner.  The amount of travel in ECNL is absolutely the perfect amount of travel.  How do I know that?  Because ECNL is wildly successful, and because there are many, many other options available to everyone at every price point if they don't want to pay what it costs.  Because showcases provide kids with opportunities to be seen and recruited by colleges all over the country.  Because traveling is fun up until it is too much.  Because families who can't afford a little travel don't have any business engaging in an indulgent activity they can't afford.  You may as well be whining that it is unfair that every household in America doesn't have a free Steinway in the parlor, that they don't even have a parlor.
> 
> I love how people like you keep claiming soccer should just be more inclusive.  Sure, Ferrari dealerships should also be more inclusive and just pass them out like candy to poor people too, right?  In reality, youth soccer exists at every conceivable price point, but playing elite girls soccer is an expensive indulgence because elite professional training at anything costs a lot of money, whether it soccer, piano, equestrian or whatever. What you really mean is that you you don't want to pay for what things cost.  But gosh, if only the US were like that soccer utopia of Spain, where high level training costs 20,000 euros at TOVO and 17,000 at Malaga.


Why do you insist on calling people you disagree with names? You don't know a thing about me. Are you incapable of carrying on a civil conversation?

I am not a fan of the European model for developing youth soccer players since the ones that don't make it or have career ending injuries can be left with few options.

I get it, you don't have any empathy for skilled players that cannot afford ECNL travel. The facts are, there are great players that fall through the cracks and are missed opportunities for US Soccer to make the game more popular and create more opportunities for all players.


----------



## Avanti (Jul 27, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I see you are still bitter that someone spent two years telling you exactly why GDA would fail, and then it did.
> 
> GDA had a plan that encouraged creative and intelligent soccer, eh?  What a crock of shit.


You are shit and a tool. You have no idea of what you are talking about. Actually you do, you are just shamelessly pushing your agenda, it is just too bad that clueless parent may be reading your nonsense and be fooled by it. GDA was significantly better than ECNL, at least it  had minimum requirements for training days, size of the training fields, the quality of the pitch, etc. Not even when they were playing ulittle my kids played in some of the shitty fields they have played in the last two years. You have no clue about soccer, I go the opposite way in everything you spuke  and my kid is at the very top of her age group in this country.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 27, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Let me get this straight.  You spend your time watching youtube videos of 13 year old girls playing soccer, and it makes you upset that so many of them aren't playing it as well as you'd like?  Are you serious?  No one has ever claimed that little girls are less capable than little boys about learning "the complexities of real soccer systems" btw.  What I am telling you is that it is a ridiculous goal for little girls to endeavor to be better soccer players and waste their time maximizing their "cognitive" understanding of the "complexities" of the "beautiful game."  They have piano lessons, horse lessons, summer camp, school, boyfriends and/or they just don't give a s**t.  But you want them spending countless hours every week on the TOVO program and soccer drills that maximize their "cognitive" understanding of the "beautiful game"? For what?  So that there are 10,000 really great American female soccer players vying to fill the same 15 slots that make more than $30,000 a year playing it?
> 
> You seem to think there is one purpose for playing little kiddie soccer and that every family in America should share it, which is that every little girl in America should be the best possible soccer player they can be. It obviously makes you sad that so many little girls just won't put in the time, effort and expense necessary to become soccer players to your satisfaction.  But the truth is they have lives and soccer is a really fucking stupid thing for a girl to spend so much time and money on in a country of opportunity like the US, with the exception of two girls in every birth year on average in the entire country who will grow up to be USWNT prospects.  And, as it turns out, those two and many more do quite nicely the way things currently work in the US, given that the USWNT is the freakin' bomb.
> 
> Why is it so important to you that more little girls "need" to be better soccer players?  Why is it so important to you that more parents need to share your neurosis? Kiddie soccer in the US is just fine.  Those who want to be the best soccer players they can be have that opportunity, and the US already excels at producing more of the best female players in the world than any other country.  Those who want to be good enough to leverage it into college but are realistic that professional soccer is a really stupid aspiration have that opportunity.  Those who want to play for fun have that opportunity. I really think you need to take a step back and ask yourself what you're doing if you're spending your time watching 13 year old girls play soccer on youtube and upset that they aren't good enough for you.


I believe you're the one who thinks girls are less capable. I mean in your mind you don't think they should bother with fundamentals or other methodologies and that everything is fine. What about all those "alphas" you speak of? You know, the ones really passionate for the sport? Perhaps your apathy and complacency is holding them back? Oh right, you have a vision of what girls should be doing with their time, you know riding horses and having boyfriends. You've put kids into boxes -- you, my friend, don't know up from down and are holding women back. You've got some serious gatekeeping issues.

I think top clubs in the US should be focusing on development and not emphasize "win-now".  I couldn't care less what happens in rec, smaller clubs, or even 3rd teams at top clubs.

I care in the same way I care about academics, music, etc.  The difference here is we're on socalsoccer.com, not socalacademics.com or socalmusic.com.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 27, 2022)

Avanti said:


> You are shit and a tool. You have no idea of what you are talking about. Actually you do, you are just shamelessly pushing your agenda, it is just too bad that clueless parent may be reading your nonsense and be fooled by it. GDA was significantly better than ECNL, at least it  had minimum requirements for training days, size of the training fields, the quality of the pitch, etc. Not even when they were playing ulittle my kids played in some of the shitty fields they have played in the last two years. You have no clue about soccer, I go the opposite way in everything you spuke  and my kid is at the very top of her age group in this country.


Yes, I push the agenda of not worrying about the state of girls soccer in the US or trying to change anything.  So nefarious.  BTW, if GDA was so much better than ECNL, ECNL would not have killed it in less than three years.  Sure, GDA was so great that 40 of its clubs told it to piss off within the first two years. Honestly, I can't imagine anything more brilliant than forcing every 13 year old girl in America who wants to continue playing soccer at a high level practice it four nights a week, every week, four four years. Especially if they get to practice on such nicely manicured and well-sized fields. 

Quick question.  If your little princess is so great, wtf are you complaining about?  That her teammates lack sufficient "cognitive" understanding of the "complexities" of the "beautiful game" to pass her the ball as much as you'd prefer?  They just lack the "vision" to get her the ball where your little princess can finish it?  Are you upset that other parents just don't understand how important it is for their teenage girls to give up everything else in life to train four nights a week, every week?  If only they understood how important soccer is to you, they would surely drop two grand on some TOVO videos, and then every little girl would play soccer to your satisfaction, right?

I am going to give you some advice. Tying your self-esteem to your daughter's ability to play soccer like you are doing is a very bad idea.  But carry on telling us how great she is, so therefore people should listen to you when you say that America must restructure youth soccer in America before it is too late.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 27, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I believe you're the one who thinks girls are less capable. I mean in your mind you don't think they should bother with fundamentals or other methodologies and that everything is fine. What about all those "alphas" you speak of? You know, the ones really passionate for the sport? Perhaps your apathy and complacency is holding them back? Oh right, you have a vision of what girls should be doing with their time, you know riding horses and having boyfriends. You've put kids into boxes -- you, my friend, don't know up from down and are holding women back. You've got some serious gatekeeping issues.
> 
> I think top clubs in the US should be focusing on development and not emphasize "win-now".  I couldn't care less what happens in rec, smaller clubs, or even 3rd teams at top clubs.
> 
> I care in the same way I care about academics, music, etc.  The difference here is we're on socalsoccer.com, not socalacademics.com or socalmusic.com.


No, I just don't think the vast majority of kids should waste their time on the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game" as you'd like.  The alphas who really care are doing just fine the way things are.  I know that because the USWNT beats just about everyone all the time.  I also know it because the two soccer utopias that all of you love so much (Spain and France) have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament and the other has never made a final - in the entire history of planet earth.  I honestly think you and your friends gravitate to losers like this because that is all you know.

But maybe you are right.  Maybe Catarina Macario, and Trinity Rodman, and Sophia Smith, would all be better soccer players if only I weren't so complacent.  It's just so pathetic that no one in the US ever developed them at all, am I right?  It is despicable what those shit clubs Surf, and Blues, and Real CO did to those girls, right?  Maybe the USWNT might have won a WC or four if only American players had spent more time learning the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game"?  If only we had deemphasized winning and instead spent it watching online TOVO videos.


----------



## Brav520 (Jul 27, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> You accuse youth soccer of being corrupt but can't point to a single instance of corruption by a single person because you're not good at names? I see.
> 
> I have defended the amount of travel in ECNL many times whiner.  The amount of travel in ECNL is absolutely the perfect amount of travel.  How do I know that?  Because ECNL is wildly successful, and because there are many, many other options available to everyone at every price point if they don't want to pay what it costs.  Because showcases provide kids with opportunities to be seen and recruited by colleges all over the country.  Because traveling is fun up until it is too much.  Because families who can't afford a little travel don't have any business engaging in an indulgent activity they can't afford.  You may as well be whining that it is unfair that every household in America doesn't have a free Steinway in the parlor, that they don't even have a parlor.
> 
> I love how people like you keep claiming soccer should just be more inclusive.  Sure, Ferrari dealerships should also be more inclusive and just pass them out like candy to poor people too, right?  In reality, youth soccer exists at every conceivable price point, but playing elite girls soccer is an expensive indulgence because elite professional training at anything costs a lot of money, whether it soccer, piano, equestrian or whatever. What you really mean is that you you don't want to pay for what things cost.  But gosh, if only the US were like that soccer utopia of Spain, where high level training costs 20,000 euros at TOVO and 17,000 at Malaga.


The comparison to Ferrari dealerships is just perfection


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## Brav520 (Jul 27, 2022)

These conversations are happening in basketball at the high levels 

is Europe doing a better job of developing their basketball players?

Now this may just be the Doncic bias going on, but they are going on

 Elite level basketball has shoe money involved, so a little different 

but nothing wrong with asking the questions

Even Parlow has said that the sport could be more accessible in this country


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## outside! (Jul 28, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> No, I just don't think the vast majority of kids should waste their time on the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game" as you'd like.  The alphas who really care are doing just fine the way things are.  I know that because the USWNT beats just about everyone all the time.  I also know it because the two soccer utopias that all of you love so much (Spain and France) have never won a knockout stage game in a major tournament and the other has never made a final - in the entire history of planet earth.  I honestly think you and your friends gravitate to losers like this because that is all you know.
> 
> But maybe you are right.  Maybe Catarina Macario, and Trinity Rodman, and Sophia Smith, would all be better soccer players if only I weren't so complacent.  It's just so pathetic that no one in the US ever developed them at all, am I right?  It is despicable what those shit clubs Surf, and Blues, and Real CO did to those girls, right?  Maybe the USWNT might have won a WC or four if only American players had spent more time learning the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game"?  If only we had deemphasized winning and instead spent it watching online TOVO videos.


Most of Catarina Macario's skill development was in Brazil. I was at her first game in the US.


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## crush (Jul 28, 2022)

outside! said:


> Most of Catarina Macario's skill development was in Brazil. I was at her first game in the US.



I watched her live in Del mar and so did my dd. She has one of, if not, the best work ethic out there. She does not stop and plays hard on every play at practice and in the games. I think she helped Lyon with top trophy in Spain. She is amazing player and hope she heals fast from her ACL. I played hoops Outside. I was NOT a very good practice player. I hated practice to be honest and gave it 75%. When the lights came on and we had real game, watch out because I was going to be all over you. I took charges, I was a pest to the big guys and played crazy but in control. It was adrenalin that was only made in the games. My coach would give me crap because I didn't bring that energy to practice. Well, his practices were shit and he yelled at us all the time and even tried to get us all to go to his church  to be saved.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 28, 2022)

outside! said:


> Most of Catarina Macario's skill development was in Brazil. I was at her first game in the US.


I see, so you're admitting that it really doesn't matter what youth clubs teach because, like Macario, girls learn what they need to know about the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game" by 11 years old?  That she learned everything she needed to know by the time she was 12 years old when she moved here?  Or are you admitting that pure athleticism like she possesses is far more important than "technical skill"? Or are you saying the US should be like Brazil because that country does so well at developing female soccer players? 

What is your point?  My point is that Surf, ECNL and Stanford helped convert an incredibly athletic 12 year old girl into someone who may end up becoming the best female soccer player who ever lived, and that it is ridiculous to discount that just because she was really good when she was 11. My point is that she also has the most valuable asset she could possibly have if her injury bug continues (a Stanford degree), which by itself makes the American youth "system" better than wtf goes on down in Brazil.  Or Spain. Or anywhere else.


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## Happened again (Jul 28, 2022)

MacDre said:


> @GoldenGate & @Happened again, I think the both of you have misconstrued @NorCalDad position.  Y’all have got Dude chasing non sequiturs and neither of you have addressed his complaint.
> 
> Dude is complaining about all the “bully ball” and the lack of basic fundamentals.  This is not about athleticism or lack there of.  This isn’t about access to college.  Dude is talking about a lack of basic fundamentals.  (emphasis added).
> 
> My kid defines bully ball as:  players being allowed to attack the player instead of the ball, shoulder barging, and pushing with both hands.


oh come on...don't cherry pick.  The idea that "everyone" needs to learn better skills or the rest of the world will pass by is silly.

I agree with the lack of focus from many clubs...it's not changing..ever.  I would recommnd to stop  whining  and go find a club that fits your requirement, they are out there.  The idea that the rest of the world will "pass us by" is silly.....Anyone watch the England Sweden game?


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## NorCalDad (Jul 28, 2022)

Happened again said:


> oh come on...don't cherry pick.  The idea that "everyone" needs to learn better skills or the rest of the world will pass by is silly.
> 
> I agree with the lack of focus from many clubs...it's not changing..ever.  I would recommnd to stop  whining  and go find a club that fits your requirement, they are out there.  The idea that the rest of the world will "pass us by" is silly.....Anyone watch the England Sweden game?


Nope, but I watched the UEFA u19 final between ESP and NOR.....


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## NorCalDad (Jul 28, 2022)

Had a great conversation with our "princess" the other day.  It went something like:

*princess*: Why is girls soccer so much different than boys soccer?

*me*: What do you mean?

*princess*: They just seem to have so much more control of the ball and they're not running into each all over the place.

*me*: Well princess, @GoldenGate thinks you just need to realize the girls game is just different from the boys game and you should just accept that. 

*princess*: That doesn't make any sense. 

*me*: @GoldenGate thinks it would be better if you spent time with a boyfriend and riding horses.

*princess*: But I really love soccer and want to get better at it. 

*me*: Sorry princess, @GoldenGate thinks you're basically wasting your time with those aspirations. And, as we all know, @GoldenGate knows all.


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## Happened again (Jul 28, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Nope, but I watched the UEFA u19 final between ESP and NOR.....


good game, evenly matched - went deep into extra time.  The better match was France/Spain.


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## GoldenGate (Jul 28, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Nope, but I watched the UEFA u19 final between ESP and NOR.....


It is no wonder that you have no idea how soccer is won at the highest levels.  Still bitter and confused that your circus juggling friends had so much possession but still had their asses handed to them by England and Germany?


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## NorCalDad (Jul 28, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> It is no wonder that you have no idea how soccer is won at the highest levels.  Still bitter and confused that your circus juggling friends had so much possession but still had their asses handed to them by England and Germany?


You clearly do not understand Spanish soccer based on your "circus juggling" comment.  Of course you probably also don't know Cruyff's view on juggling either.


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## MacDre (Jul 28, 2022)

Happened again said:


> oh come on...don't cherry pick.  The idea that "everyone" needs to learn better skills or the rest of the world will pass by is silly.
> 
> I agree with the lack of focus from many clubs...it's not changing..ever.  I would recommnd to stop  whining  and go find a club that fits your requirement, they are out there.  The idea that the rest of the world will "pass us by" is silly.....Anyone watch the England Sweden game?


Definitely good clubs and coaches out there.  I actually think the majority of the problem lies with the players and referees.  I think the refs could call games tighter and essentially eliminate bully ball.  In terms of players, I think overall there’s a lack of interest/passion for soccer.  The girls on my kids team could care less about soccer outside of practice so, even if more clubs were better, I don’t think the culture/passion is there yet for the players to take advantage of improved conditions if clubs were to offer it.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 28, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Had a great conversation with our "princess" the other day.  It went something like:
> 
> *princess*: Why is girls soccer so much different than boys soccer?
> 
> ...


No one is stopping your daughter from becoming the best soccer player she can be.  Let me ask you this, though.  In 10 years, where will your princess be in life compared to those girls whose first touches the two of you mock? Where will she be compared to those who, instead of spending/wasting hours on end perfecting their first touches, instead spent it on something else?  Like improving their piano or guitar skills, spending it in a robotics club, working gainful employment, volunteering, or even reading literature? Shoot, where will she be compared to the pretty ones doing duckface and peddling crap on the 'gram and Tiktok?  Will they all be disgusted sitting around the TV just so angry that the USWNT is losing to a bunch of Spanish circus jugglers because Trinity Rodman and Catarina Macario failed to develop to their full potential because their youth coaches failed to spend $5,000 learning the "TOVO system"? 

The truth is your daughter will never play for the national team.  She'll never make more money playing soccer than should could have made working FT at Starbucks.  I also get the impression she'll never even leverage her soccer into a meaningfully better college opportunity.  In fact,  if you're like most of the others here who share your sensibilities, I'm guessing she ends up chasing the soccer dream at a college that is worse academically and hinders her professional development more than the college she would have chosen if she wasn't worried about disappointing her dad by hanging up the cleats.  In the end, odds are very high that she will end up bitter that she wasted so much time watching TOVO modules when she could have been creating fond memories. 

Why does it matter so much to you that other people's kids and their parents do not share your belief that soccer is just so important that thousands of little girls "need" to be better at it? Why does that make you so angry that they believe it is a kiddie game played by children and treat it accordingly?  Why is it so important to you that other people's daughters become better soccer players?  How would your life, or anyone's, improve if more little girls give up music lessons and robotics to focus on first touches?  In the end, the irony of all of this is that people like you never end up with the soccer player you expected and were hoping for.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 28, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> You clearly do not understand Spanish soccer based on your "circus juggling" comment.  Of course you probably also don't know Cruyff's view on juggling either.


I am sure your daughter has spent many hours studying the great Cruyff.  Good for her.  I can't imagine a more important way to for a teenage girl to spend her time.  Worshipping the total futbol god has worked so well for Spain's circus jugglers.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 28, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> No one is stopping your daughter from becoming the best soccer player she can be.  Let me ask you this, though.  In 10 years, where will your princess be in life compared to those girls whose first touches the two of you mock? Where will she be compared to those who, instead of spending/wasting hours on end perfecting their first touches, instead spent it on something else?  Like improving their piano or guitar skills, spending it in a robotics club, working gainful employment, volunteering, or even reading literature? Shoot, where will she be compared to the pretty ones doing duckface and peddling crap on the 'gram and Tiktok?  Will they all be disgusted sitting around the TV just so angry that the USWNT is losing to a bunch of Spanish circus jugglers because Trinity Rodman and Catarina Macario failed to develop to their full potential because their youth coaches failed to spend $5,000 learning the "TOVO system"?
> 
> The truth is your daughter will never play for the national team.  She'll never make more money playing soccer than should could have made working FT at Starbucks.  I also get the impression she'll never even leverage her soccer into a meaningfully better college opportunity.  In fact,  if you're like most of the others here who share your sensibilities, I'm guessing she ends up chasing the soccer dream at a college that is worse academically and hinders her professional development more than the college she would have chosen if she wasn't worried about disappointing her dad by hanging up the cleats.  In the end, odds are very high that she will end up bitter that she wasted so much time watching TOVO modules when she could have been creating fond memories.
> 
> Why does it matter so much to you that other people's kids and their parents do not share your belief that soccer is just so important that thousands of little girls "need" to be better at it? Why does that make you so angry that they believe it is a kiddie game played by children and treat it accordingly?  Why is it so important to you that other people's daughters become better soccer players?  How would your life, or anyone's, improve if more little girls give up music lessons and robotics to focus on first touches?  In the end, the irony of all of this is that people like you never end up with the soccer player you expected and were hoping for.


Well @GoldenGate this is probably going to blow your mind, but you don't know my kids and what they're into (which is much more than just soccer). You seem to be under the assumption that anyone who posts on a soccer forum that they have nothing else going on in life. You really like putting people in boxes, regardless of the limited amount of data you have to do so. I get it, it allows you to admonish people which probably creates some kind of endorphin rush and makes you feel good inside. But, let's be honest, you have no interest in having a conversation nor are you adding any real value to this conversation. Every single one of your manifestos could be summarized with "US girls soccer is good, no need to change anything". Like literally all of your other words are wasted bits on the Internet -- like plastic in the great pacific garbage patch. 

For what it's worth, I have zero motivation for any of my kids to play professional, on the national team, or in college. I mean how could I? I'm not them. We let our kids lead with their interests. We help them however we can. I'm a firm believer sport (especially team based sports) provide valuable life building blocks that they will carry on through their lives. One thing I'm not fond of is someone, you, saying the girls game is different than the boys game....just because. I get your reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, but if you have been paying attention, you would have seen that I'm actually advocating for a less intense, less anxiety prone, environment in soccer for girls. Hearing parents, who have no idea what they're talking about, on the sidelines yelling at their "alphas" to "go get her" is what I'm advocating against. Perhaps you're one of those parents. You certainly don't seem to care about concussion rates in girls soccer. 

There's no anger over on this keyboard.  Just discussing the state of girls soccer in the US and how it could potentially be different if parents/players demanded higher quality play over wins.  Eventually I will be proven right at an international level.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 28, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I am sure your daughter has spent many hours studying the great Cruyff.  Good for her.  I can't imagine a more important way to for a teenage girl to spend her time.  Worshipping the total futbol god has worked so well for Spain's circus jugglers.


You should finish your googling on Cruyff...you didn't get to the juggling part.


----------



## Happened again (Jul 29, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Definitely good clubs and coaches out there.  I actually think the majority of the problem lies with the players and referees.  I think the refs could call games tighter and essentially eliminate bully ball.  In terms of players, I think overall there’s a lack of interest/passion for soccer.  The girls on my kids team could care less about soccer outside of practice so, even if more clubs were better, I don’t think the culture/passion is there yet for the players to take advantage of improved conditions if clubs were to offer it.


This is a big country with many players, refs, clubs, coaches. There is one out there for ya.  Why you gotta blame the 15 year old kid or the middle aged person trying to ref - makeing extra $$ or getting some excercise?  He/she is the barrier to greatness?  come on man. 

All of a sudden everyone has a kid that is going to play on the national team?  People/parents are crazy. Parents are what's wrong with youth sports, not the refs.


----------



## NorCalDad (Jul 29, 2022)

Happened again said:


> This is a big country with many players, refs, clubs, coaches. There is one out there for ya.  Why you gotta blame the 15 year old kid or the middle aged person trying to ref - makeing extra $$ or getting some excercise?  He/she is the barrier to greatness?  come on man.
> 
> All of a sudden everyone has a kid that is going to play on the national team?  People/parents are crazy. Parents are what's wrong with youth sports, not the refs.


Why does wanting higher quality coaching and less boot/bully ball mean everyone has a kid that is going to play on the national team?  That makes zero sense to me.  We all pay a premium for club soccer, why not get our money's worth? It would also be great if we could save some money on medical bills.


----------



## GoldenGate (Jul 29, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Well @GoldenGate this is probably going to blow your mind, but you don't know my kids and what they're into (which is much more than just soccer). You seem to be under the assumption that anyone who posts on a soccer forum that they have nothing else going on in life. You really like putting people in boxes, regardless of the limited amount of data you have to do so. I get it, it allows you to admonish people which probably creates some kind of endorphin rush and makes you feel good inside. But, let's be honest, you have no interest in having a conversation nor are you adding any real value to this conversation. Every single one of your manifestos could be summarized with "US girls soccer is good, no need to change anything". Like literally all of your other words are wasted bits on the Internet -- like plastic in the great pacific garbage patch.
> 
> For what it's worth, I have zero motivation for any of my kids to play professional, on the national team, or in college. I mean how could I? I'm not them. We let our kids lead with their interests. We help them however we can. I'm a firm believer sport (especially team based sports) provide valuable life building blocks that they will carry on through their lives. One thing I'm not fond of is someone, you, saying the girls game is different than the boys game....just because. I get your reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, but if you have been paying attention, you would have seen that I'm actually advocating for a less intense, less anxiety prone, environment in soccer for girls. Hearing parents, who have no idea what they're talking about, on the sidelines yelling at their "alphas" to "go get her" is what I'm advocating against. Perhaps you're one of those parents. You certainly don't seem to care about concussion rates in girls soccer.
> 
> There's no anger over on this keyboard.  Just discussing the state of girls soccer in the US and how it could potentially be different if parents/players demanded higher quality play over wins.  Eventually I will be proven right at an international level.


I see.  So your entire point is that you think little girls should just be better at soccer and it would be better for America if every parent in America and their little girls just committed much more of their time to developing excellent first touches on the ball instead of on things that are, uh, more important to them? Spending more time on their first touches provides far more "valuable life building blacks that will carry on through their lives" than any of the things that they need to sacrifice to become little Cruyffs?

I like this game and would like to play.  I think little girls should just continue committing to soccer to the extent they want to and spend their time on what is important to them, not some clown who loses his mind with the low quality of play he sees watching U13 games on youtube wants.


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## outside! (Jul 29, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> I see, so you're admitting that it really doesn't matter what youth clubs teach because, like Macario, girls learn what they need to know about the "cognitive" "complexities" of the "beautiful game" by 11 years old?  That she learned everything she needed to know by the time she was 12 years old when she moved here?  Or are you admitting that pure athleticism like she possesses is far more important than "technical skill"? Or are you saying the US should be like Brazil because that country does so well at developing female soccer players?
> 
> What is your point?  My point is that Surf, ECNL and Stanford helped convert an incredibly athletic 12 year old girl into someone who may end up becoming the best female soccer player who ever lived, and that it is ridiculous to discount that just because she was really good when she was 11. My point is that she also has the most valuable asset she could possibly have if her injury bug continues (a Stanford degree), which by itself makes the American youth "system" better than wtf goes on down in Brazil.  Or Spain. Or anywhere else.


Catarina's skills were for the most part developed when she played against boys in Brazil. Of course her tactical awareness and soccer IQ continued to develop as she grew and Surf and Stanford provided a good environment for that, but she was already much more than just a very athletic girl when she moved here. Everyone that saw that first game she played against Legends knew they had just seen a special player.

I never said development for girls was better in Brazil, they treat their women's national team like crap. Catarina had to move away and was fortunate that her parents were able to afford living in two countries. The US currently has the best environment for developing female soccer players but it could be better if it didn't price out many young players.


----------



## Happened again (Jul 29, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> *Why does wanting higher quality coaching and less boot/bully ball mean everyone has a kid that is going to play on the national team?*  That makes zero sense to me.  We all pay a premium for club soccer, why not get our money's worth? It would also be great if we could save some money on medical bills.


It shouldn't but that doesn't appear to be the case in forums like these. Plenty of parents blaming refs, style of play, clubs, coaches, etc  for shortfalls.  Plenty of powerhouse CA clubs that are placing girls in college year in and year out.  Seems like they are doing exactly what parents want.  It's our system, I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.  Have you checked out HS soccer lately.  Talk about bully ball.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching good soccer.  I just know what really controls soccer in the US...$$$, parents, big clubs....

Everyone wants to save money.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 29, 2022)

Happened again said:


> It shouldn't but that doesn't appear to be the case in forums like these. Plenty of parents blaming refs, style of play, clubs, coaches, etc  for shortfalls.  Plenty of powerhouse CA clubs that are placing girls in college year in and year out.  Seems like they are doing exactly what parents want.  It's our system, I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.  Have you checked out HS soccer lately.  Talk about bully ball.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love watching good soccer.  I just know what really controls soccer in the US...$$$, parents, big clubs....
> 
> Everyone wants to save money.


I think we're on the same page more than we're not.  I know it's not likely things will change given the financial dynamics. Perhaps it might if the USWNT starts to slip....but it would take years for a shift to happen. 

High school soccer is incredibly hard to watch.


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## NorCalDad (Aug 16, 2022)

Anyone watch the NED vs USA U20 game?  Is it online anywhere.  Curious how that played out.


----------



## Happened again (Aug 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone watch the NED vs USA U20 game?  Is it online anywhere.  Curious how that played out.


The Dutch put on quite the show.  Compact shape, possession, and counterack neutralized the athletiscm of the U20s.  The back line looked slow and were often out of position.  As a commentator pointed out, they didn't really look themselves, especially after a successful run through Europe earlier this year.  US coaches looked a tad bit worried and panicky throughout the game. 

The U17s head to spain later this year.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 16, 2022)

US looked pretty bad.  I do expect that to turn around but Japan will test them on many levels.


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## paytoplay (Aug 16, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Anyone watch the NED vs USA U20 game?  Is it online anywhere.  Curious how that played out.


Pretty sure we won easily. The Netherlands (population 18 million) vs USA (330 million). USA gdp is 20 times larger.


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## EdNewt (Aug 16, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Pretty sure we won easily. The Netherlands (population 18 million) vs USA (330 million). USA gdp is 20 times larger.


Is the troll to non-troll ratio on this site like 10 to 1?


----------



## Happened again (Aug 16, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> US looked pretty bad.  I do expect that to turn around but Japan will test them on many levels.


I suspect they will adjust and come out firing on all cylinders to make up GD.  They played the Dutch in JUNE, won in PKs in a tight match.  Great opportunity to see how they respond.  They looked frustrated and surpised.  The Dutch are good, hold possesion and have size/skill.  They broke our high press and our backline failed miserably at 1 vs 1 defending.  

Next game will be exciting, the US has to run up the score (if they even can).  The Dutch will have to do the same.


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## jojon (Aug 16, 2022)

Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development? 
The boys can hide behind the fact that we have our best athletes "stolen" by football, basketball, baseball and maybe even track and field.
Girls soccer definitely has the biggest selection pool in the world plus consistent training and regular matches since a very young age.
In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular and yet they are at the same level with us (with less total population and definitely less money spent).
I don't know if it is coaching, pay to play scheme leaving out too many talented players or college experience disrupting the development.
Whatever it is, other nations are catching up thus proves their system is better. No wonder our boys cannot catch up with the world.


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## TeamDadJokes (Aug 16, 2022)

It’s one game… at U20.. what’s up with all the sky is falling routine? Do we really think all of the best girls make these teams? Or that coaches can’t make adjustments? USA is the standard for womens soccer as it stands right now. Losing once or even twice statistically will happen. This is a great opportunity for the US U20 team to learn and improve.


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## espola (Aug 16, 2022)

jojon said:


> Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development?
> The boys can hide behind the fact that we have our best athletes "stolen" by football, basketball, baseball and maybe even track and field.


...and tennis, and karate, and all kinds of hockey, and lacrosse, and golf...

And I'm not making any of those up.

There may also have been one kid lost to fencing in my experience.


> Girls soccer definitely has the biggest selection pool in the world plus consistent training and regular matches since a very young age.
> In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular and yet they are at the same level with us (with less total population and definitely less money spent).
> I don't know if it is coaching, pay to play scheme leaving out too many talented players or college experience disrupting the development.
> Whatever it is, other nations are catching up thus proves their system is better. No wonder our boys cannot catch up with the world.


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## GoldenGate (Aug 16, 2022)

jojon said:


> Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development?
> The boys can hide behind the fact that we have our best athletes "stolen" by football, basketball, baseball and maybe even track and field.
> Girls soccer definitely has the biggest selection pool in the world plus consistent training and regular matches since a very young age.
> In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular and yet they are at the same level with us (with less total population and definitely less money spent).
> ...


Can someone, anyone, please tell us how much it costs a Spanish, or Dutch, or English or French girl to play elite club soccer at the youth level?  Can any of you explain how many club options exist for girls in those countries?  Can any of you identify a single non-American girls youth coach in the entire world who is a better than the best that US has to offer? Can someone please identify the fantasy country where girls get the best training in the world for free?  

And since when are Brazil, Japan and the Netherlands on the same level of the US?  With the incredibly unlucky exception of one game against Japan in 2011, the US has beaten the shit out of those teams every single time it has mattered since the beginning of time.  Japan is crap.  Brazil is crap.  And the Dutch are on their way down.  

Also keep in mind that there are approximately 2 players in every birth year who provide meaningful contributions to the WNT.  Having the best U20 team doesn't mean anything.  Having the best 2 players, however, is what counts for the WNT.


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## Happened again (Aug 16, 2022)

jojon said:


> Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development?
> The boys can hide behind the fact that we have our best athletes "stolen" by football, basketball, baseball and maybe even track and field.
> Girls soccer definitely has the biggest selection pool in the world plus consistent training and regular matches since a very young age.
> In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular and yet they are at the same level with us (with less total population and definitely less money spent).
> ...


No..still ahead by a rather large margins.  Cherry pick the teams if you want.  Compare the U15s/16s and tell me what you get.  The 17s go to Spain later this year, lets see what happens.   

"In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular "  - also not true..maybe more true in Brazil than the others but not true anymore.  Plenty of $$ going to the girls.  Better late than never.  Did you catch the Euro?

They had a bad game..it's ok to have a bad game.  It's also ok to not 100% dominate every game.


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## Happened again (Aug 16, 2022)

TeamDadJokes said:


> It’s one game… at U20.. what’s up with all the sky is falling routine? Do we really think all of the best girls make these teams? Or that coaches can’t make adjustments? USA is the standard for womens soccer as it stands right now. Losing once or even twice statistically will happen. This is a great opportunity for the US U20 team to learn and improve.


Happens every time..sky is always falling and our girs are regressing...we'll have this conversataion again in 10 years.  Remember when the senior team  lost in 2016?  Pandemonium..


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 16, 2022)

Germany lost to Mexico and failed to advance…


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## socalkdg (Aug 17, 2022)

TeamDadJokes said:


> It’s one game… at U20.. what’s up with all the sky is falling routine? Do we really think all of the best girls make these teams? Or that coaches can’t make adjustments? USA is the standard for womens soccer as it stands right now. Losing once or even twice statistically will happen. This is a great opportunity for the US U20 team to learn and improve.


I looked at previous U20 rosters and who became stars at NWSL and USWNT, saw about 4 from each roster.    Shooting 15-20% on identifying the best of the best.   Michelle Cooper and Alyssa Thompson seem like two that will make it.   The US college system seems to highlight additional ladies that end up playing for the USWNT.   With DA, ECNL, ODP losing it's luster and the new PDP,  many girls are getting missed.


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## chipmonk (Aug 17, 2022)

GoldenGate said:


> Can someone, anyone, please tell us how much it costs a Spanish, or Dutch, or English or French girl to play elite club soccer at the youth level?  Can any of you explain how many club options exist for girls in those countries?  Can any of you identify a single non-American girls youth coach in the entire world who is a better than the best that US has to offer? Can someone please identify the fantasy country where girls get the best training in the world for free?


Not many people are claiming it should be free. The European club options for young women and girls are growing and mostly funded through professional clubs who pay for the coaches and and facilities and travel (and education). Their incentives are weighted heavily to finding and developing the best players regardless of the family's socio-economic background.

The incentives in US youth soccer (across genders) are heavily weighted to finding the most players with the socio-economic background to pay as much money per year as they can. Developing players still happens but is secondary as a means to justify the high costs.

The US system has the 'benefit' of creating more opportunities for youths to play organized soccer with mediocre professional coaches who aren't really held accountable to much. But the US is large enough so they will continue to produce within that system. There are some great youth coaches if you are fortunate to live close enough to where they are and can afford it.










						La Masia opens doors to first female residents
					

Nine girls from the Barça youth football programme will be taking upper secondary education while living at the Centre de Formació Oriol Tort




					www.fcbarcelona.com
				











						Youth Women | Juventus.com
					






					www.juventus.com
				







__





						Girls Academy
					






					www.mancity.com


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## TeamDadJokes (Aug 17, 2022)

socalkdg said:


> I looked at previous U20 rosters and who became stars at NWSL and USWNT, saw about 4 from each roster.    Shooting 15-20% on identifying the best of the best.   Michelle Cooper and Alyssa Thompson seem like two that will make it.   The US college system seems to highlight additional ladies that end up playing for the USWNT.   With DA, ECNL, ODP losing it's luster and the new PDP,  many girls are getting missed.


A great example is right here in SoCal. CalSouth only picked players to represent ODP at CalSouth State Cup last year and everyone who was in SoCal league was skipped for the 2010 age group.


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## paytoplay (Aug 17, 2022)

Happened again said:


> I suspect they will adjust and come out firing on all cylinders to make up GD.  They played the Dutch in JUNE, won in PKs in a tight match.  Great opportunity to see how they respond.  They looked frustrated and surpised.  The Dutch are good, hold possesion and have size/skill.  They broke our high press and our backline failed miserably at 1 vs 1 defending.
> 
> Next game will be exciting, the US has to run up the score (if they even can).  The Dutch will have to do the same.


How’s that Japan game going? I think USA will win big! We’ve got a very impressive paytoplay youth development program!


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## oh canada (Aug 17, 2022)

U20 Japan game another example that our kickball doesn't work against a technical side. The japanese ladies much smaller and slower, but every japanese player better technically than our "star" Moultrie and our big/fast players consistently turn the ball over and don't have the finishing consistency. Keep identifying the early growth girls at 12yrs old USA and riding those players all the way through - you get the same results.  This U20 coach clearly doesn't know what she's doing either, but you're never gonna get high quality coaches to take that job.  These players have kickball success in college because there isn't a high-quality technical side like Japan in D1. Too bad bc it's beautiful soccer.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 17, 2022)

oh canada said:


> U20 Japan game another example that our kickball doesn't work against a technical side. The japanese ladies much smaller and slower, but every japanese player better technically than our "star" Moultrie and our big/fast players consistently turn the ball over and don't have the finishing consistency. Keep identifying the early growth girls at 12yrs old USA and riding those players all the way through - you get the same results.  This U20 coach clearly doesn't know what she's doing either, but you're never gonna get high quality coaches to take that job.  These players have kickball success in college because there isn't a high-quality technical side like Japan in D1. Too bad bc it's beautiful soccer.


Heard this exact same story the last time Japan won the u20’s.  US’s biggest problem/disadvantage is the lack of time the players get to train together in our National Team System.


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## Happened again (Aug 17, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> How’s that Japan game going? I think USA will win big! We’ve got a very impressive paytoplay youth development program!


ha..nanny nanny booboo.  Where were you when  the U16s were wreaking havoc in Europe?  The 17s go to spain shortly.  We will see what happens there.

Anyway, that was an awful game.  They need to address their back line at this age group.  Did they bring the right players?  Is that the right coach for this age group?  Did the network scouts scout the right player...who was involved in the evaluation and selection.  What happened since the Suds tournament...They have plenty to fix....


----------



## Happened again (Aug 17, 2022)

oh canada said:


> U20 Japan game another example that our kickball doesn't work against a technical side. The japanese ladies much smaller and slower, but every japanese player better technically than our "star" Moultrie and our big/fast players consistently turn the ball over and don't have the finishing consistency. Keep identifying the early growth girls at 12yrs old USA and riding those players all the way through - you get the same results.  This U20 coach clearly doesn't know what she's doing either, but you're never gonna get high quality coaches to take that job.  These players have kickball success in college because there isn't a high-quality technical side like Japan in D1. Too bad bc it's beautiful soccer.


They did play an excellent game and exploited the mind of the US girls.  We could not keep possession and our back line is just out of position...not one player along that back line showed positional acumen.  Blowing through CONCACAF did us no favors.  One wonders about the coach and the coaching staff.  

Also, not a good time of the year - many, many players are back home getting ready for the season.


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## #girldad (Aug 17, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Also, not a good time of the year - many, many players are back home getting ready for the season.


So you're saying that the college season is more important to these girls? For some reason, I always thought the main goal was to be an Olympian...


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## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 18, 2022)

Mediocre soccer is in the near future for us women’s youth soccer teams.   ECNL needs to change get their mindset and focus on continued development rather than just bring  the biggest and fastest player out there.    You can see on tv how the rest of the world will steamroll through our teams.   Pay to play has finally caught up and impacted the quality of our teams compared to the rest of the world.  The women’s Euro cup this summer displayed some incredible soccer that will put the USA team way behind in a few years.


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

#girldad said:


> So you're saying that the college season is more important to these girls? For some reason, I always thought the main goal was to be an Olympian...


Great question - how much influence do the top college coaches have in this scenario?  I suppose what we shouldn't do is provide an excuse for their poor performance.  This same age group did well in Europe earlier this summer.  What changed?


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Mediocre soccer is in the near future for us women’s youth soccer teams.   ECNL needs to change get their mindset and focus on continued development rather than just bring  the biggest and fastest player out there.    You can see on tv how the rest of the world will steamroll through our teams.   Pay to play has finally caught up and impacted the quality of our teams compared to the rest of the world.  The women’s Euro cup this summer displayed some incredible soccer that will put the USA team way behind in a few years.


I don't get his point of view. Where were you when they played very well in Europe a few months ago against the best Euro teams?  I've seen on TV the younger teams steamroll every team in the world.  One age group has a bad tournmanet and that means the death of US women's soccer? I don't get it.  

A likely scenario is the Dutch learned from their last meeting and adjusted as needed.  The Japanese saw the same weakness in this particular team and exploited it.   Obviously the US coaching staff didn't do their homework or prepared their players for some adversity.  

The Dutch and the Japanese have had solid programs for some years.


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## Carlsbad7 (Aug 18, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Great question - how much influence do the top college coaches have in this scenario?  I suppose what we shouldn't do is provide an excuse for their poor performance.  This same age group did well in Europe earlier this summer.  What changed?


Collage coaches and US olympic coaches have the same issues in the US with soccer. Everything is short term, based on the now vs building a team that plays possession + knows each other inside out.

Japan as a culture values tradition + working at something over and over as a group. 

I dont see the US changing because theres nothing pushing for a change. Youth soccer is 10 years with 4-5 of actually playing, college is 4 years with maybe 2 years of actual game time, and pro is just a game of trying to pick the top talent to field a team. All groups (Youth, College, Pro) are different + players are essentially starting over at each level.

In Europe + other parts of the world clubs start with youth + shape them until they're ready to play pro. A single group controls the players. This gives them the time to properly train teams + players on possession.

Now that larger clubs have embraced training women. The USWNT will likely start having a more difficult time getting the wins.


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## crush (Aug 18, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Great question - how much influence do the top college coaches have in this scenario?  I suppose what we shouldn't do is provide an excuse for their poor performance.  This same age group did well in Europe earlier this summer.  What changed?


Lot's of younger players on this team. 16 and 17 years old. I think based on our record with the the real World Cup, we will be right there trying to win the Cup. These younger WC's are not that important. The younger players like OM got some great experience. I can see with my eyes that possession is not looking good for the USA and that sucks. I hope we can play a better style. I saw a lot of kickball. I also think we should form a California B Team to scrimmage them before they go and play. Beating teams 7-0, 14-0 is not helping against Japan and Netherlands.


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## crush (Aug 18, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Collage coaches and US olympic coaches have the same issues in the US with soccer. Everything is short term, based on the now vs building a team that plays possession + knows each other inside out.
> 
> Japan as a culture values tradition + working at something over and over as a group.
> 
> ...


Yup, so true bro. In France and Italy, the girls play for fun and at around 14, they separate the top top players and form a "Top players league" through academies. Level 1, 2, 3 and 4 at most countries. Grade/SAT reporting are not required for the 7th and 8th grader at these professional academies for the top top players only league and not top students who know how to play kickball and smashball. All promotion and relegation is how a club moves up in Euro. The other girls not invited at the top players only league, play co-ed rec ball the rest of their life or try and prove the scouts wrong and get private coaching. In the USA, it's pay to play. Also, stay, pay and then play.  It's not just about soccer over here in the States. You also better have really excellent grades, excellent SAT, excellent mom & dad with lot's of cash to pay to play and you better be the nicest human ever and volunteer any extra time you do have with helping others and never worry about yourself first.


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## oh canada (Aug 18, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Where were you when the U16s were wreaking havoc in Europe? The 17s go to spain shortly.


I am interested to see what happens with the u17s. The u16s played subpar opponents - that was a club-payoff window dressing show with little scouting due to Covid. Don't pay any attention, just like don't pay attention to CONCACAF blowouts. They are meaningless (except the games v. Canada  )

Typically, US early-maturing players can still overpower most of the smaller and slower international girls at 15/16 years old (there are exceptions like Nigeria). Then they catch up by 18/19. US U20 record is pathetic historically because of that. Plenty of 18/19 year old girls in this country to choose from for that team - shouldn't be any 16 or 17 year olds on it. But Nike has a say, of course, unfortunately.

Bottom line, Japanese and Dutch girls (and Spain) at the same age are more technical players than ours. That has nothing to do with playing together longer, etc. And, I think we are starting to see this same fact start to play out on the full national team with the new players being brought in - fast, strong, but not technical.

Also, note, to those complaining about the defense...yes, Japan and Netherlands scored 3 goals each. But, US offense only scored once in those two games, and that goal was a bit fortuitous.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I am interested to see what happens with the u17s. The u16s played subpar opponents - that was a club-payoff window dressing show with little scouting due to Covid. Don't pay any attention, just like don't pay attention to CONCACAF blowouts. They are meaningless (except the games v. Canada  )
> 
> Typically, US early-maturing players can still overpower most of the smaller and slower international girls at 15/16 years old (there are exceptions like Nigeria). Then they catch up by 18/19. US U20 record is pathetic historically because of that. Plenty of 18/19 year old girls in this country to choose from for that team - shouldn't be any 16 or 17 year olds on it. But Nike has a say, of course, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


Has nothing to do with playing together longer?  

Please elaborate on how “technically skilled”individuals win games and not how 11 players work together in a system.


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## Carlsbad7 (Aug 18, 2022)

crush said:


> Yup, so true bro. In France and Italy, the girls play for fun and at around 14, they separate the top top players and form a "Top players league" through academies. Level 1, 2, 3 and 4 at most countries. Grade/SAT reporting are not required for the 7th and 8th grader at these professional academies for the top top players only league and not top students who know how to play kickball and smashball. All promotion and relegation is how a club moves up in Euro. The other girls not invited at the top players only league, play co-ed rec ball the rest of their life or try and prove the scouts wrong and get private coaching. In the USA, it's pay to play. Also, stay, pay and then play.  It's not just about soccer over here in the States. You also better have really excellent grades, excellent SAT, excellent mom & dad with lot's of cash to pay to play and you better be the nicest human ever and volunteer any extra time you do have with helping others and never worry about yourself first.


I have a daughter that tends to play both with girls and boys, also shes attended both boys + girls camps, and recently a camp hosted by a European club.

Things I noticed...
- Boys camps are less cost then girls camps
- Boys tend to just play + not think (girls overthink things)
- Boys coaches are indifferent to coaching girls. As long as they're good + roughly the same level as the boys.
- The European club coaches were very interested to start working with girls/womens teams

I think the euro interest in working with the girls was that its something different, they were trying to figure out how to work with girls, they have respect for womens soccer in the US, and finally they were trying to determine levels + quality of training that US girls had received.

I got the feeling that the euro coaches know that womens sports are on the verge of breaking out + they wanted to be ready for it.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

crush said:


> Yup, so true bro. In France and Italy, the girls play for fun and at around 14, they separate the top top players and form a "Top players league" through academies. Level 1, 2, 3 and 4 at most countries. Grade/SAT reporting are not required for the 7th and 8th grader at these professional academies for the top top players only league and not top students who know how to play kickball and smashball. All promotion and relegation is how a club moves up in Euro. The other girls not invited at the top players only league, play co-ed rec ball the rest of their life or try and prove the scouts wrong and get private coaching. In the USA, it's pay to play. Also, stay, pay and then play.  It's not just about soccer over here in the States. You also better have really excellent grades, excellent SAT, excellent mom & dad with lot's of cash to pay to play and you better be the nicest human ever and volunteer any extra time you do have with helping others and never worry about yourself first.


Sure cause you have so much experience with overseas players….right?


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## oh canada (Aug 18, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Has nothing to do with playing together longer?
> 
> Please elaborate on how “technically skilled”individuals win games and not how 11 players work together in a system.


watch the game - so many 1v1 situations that the japanese win and our players do not in similar situations. Has nothing to do with playing with others, just knowing how to better move with the ball, fake, turn, collect, pass with proper weight, and finish. Those are all individual skills and have nothing to do with team dynamics like knowing where another player is going to be or pressing together, etc. "Playing together longer" is an often used excuse when the US loses. And, sometimes, it's not even true. It's not like these other international teams are playing together year round - the girls play for different club teams and colleges too. Japan's goalie plays at East Tennessee State.


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## crush (Aug 18, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Sure cause you have so much experience with overseas players….right?


Mums the word about what I know about this and that over their across the seas bruh. I don't know nothing about anything with regards to anything soccer in the States or overseas. I just have opinion from my 11 years of experience and nothing else. I think ((if it's ok with you oh wise one, that I think on my own and give opinion on youth soccer forum)) this U20 squad did their best and I agree with you that this team had no time to jell together, build team chemistry in the system and it was a young squad and no way they put the top U20 eligible players on this team. We will be just find when it really matters. Plus, these girls have given up a lot to be on this team and I wish them all 100% success, especially representing our awesome country.  Did I want and expect this team to advance out of group, yes because I love our country and believe we are winners. We live another day


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Has nothing to do with playing together longer?
> 
> Please elaborate on how “technically skilled”individuals win games and not how 11 players work together in a system.


Because they are proficient at rondo’s.  As long as you have players that are excellent at doing rondos anywhere on the field the player’s are interchangeable and don’t need hella practice because the have mastered technique. 

I saw the Mexico game when they beat Germany and the Mexico squad was substantially more technical than the US squad.  I’m not sure about how it’s done in Europe but I’m familiar with Mexico and I’d say the USYNT’s are better funded and practice together 2-3x’s more often than the Mexican girls.


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## crush (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Because they are proficient at rondo’s.  As long as you have players that are excellent at doing rondos anywhere on the field the player’s are interchangeable and don’t need hella practice because the have mastered technique.
> 
> I saw the Mexico game when they beat Germany and the Mexico squad was substantially more technical than the US squad.  I’m not sure about how it’s done in Europe but I’m familiar with Mexico and I’d say the USYNT’s are better funded and practice together 2-3x’s more often than the Mexican girls.


We don't play soccer the way their taught in Europe tp play futbol. The men taught the men first and now these men are teaching the girls how to play Futbol and not smashball. I bought my kid some cleats and the guy who worked at the store played in Iran in the 70s before he escaped to the US when he was entering college. Long story Dre, but the boys from his frat played on the soccer team at Northridge and they told him about this sport called "soccer." He never heard of it before but it sounded like "futbol" where he was one of the best at his age in all of Persia. Well, he went out for a practice and destroyed them all. He ended playing at Indiana U and got a full ride. He said he is gr8tful for the full ride and it helped him become a good businessman in America but this is why were no good at the highest of men's level. Soccer=college player and Futbol=Pro player. How can we get these girls to jell more bro? I think we do have a chemistry problem but it's not the girls fault. I have MOO's but I will stay silent because I'm being watched and fact checked again.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Because they are proficient at rondo’s.  As long as you have players that are excellent at doing rondos anywhere on the field the player’s are interchangeable and don’t need hella practice because the have mastered technique.
> 
> I saw the Mexico game when they beat Germany and the Mexico squad was substantially more technical than the US squad.  I’m not sure about how it’s done in Europe but I’m familiar with Mexico and I’d say the USYNT’s are better funded and practice together 2-3x’s more often than the Mexican girls.


The US hasn’t placed above 4th in the u20’s since 2012…..remind me how many WC’s we’ve won since then?

I truely hope other countries take a run at it because the rising tide raises all boats.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

oh canada said:


> watch the game - so many 1v1 situations that the japanese win and our players do not in similar situations. Has nothing to do with playing with others, just knowing how to better move with the ball, fake, turn, collect, pass with proper weight, and finish. Those are all individual skills and have nothing to do with team dynamics like knowing where another player is going to be or pressing together, etc. "Playing together longer" is an often used excuse when the US loses. And, sometimes, it's not even true. It's not like these other international teams are playing together year round - the girls play for different club teams and colleges too. Japan's goalie plays at East Tennessee State.


Fair….our defense was atrocious.  However your analysis doesn’t take player movement and special commitments into consideration (how off the ball players movement forces defenses to take different approaches). 

Do you know what the team worked on in the 4 day camp building up to the WC, do you know who was in that camp, who came late and who simply skipped the camp and caught up with the team in CR?

I do believe the staff has to answer for their performance, but I don’t believe the sky is falling.  The US senior team will always be Top 5 in the world.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> .  I’m not sure about how it’s done in Europe but I’m familiar with Mexico and I’d say the USYNT’s are better funded and practice together 2-3x’s more often than the Mexican girls.


 The Mexican u17 team has trained and played 3x’s as much as the US u17’s in 2021/22.  That is a fact!


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The US hasn’t placed above 4th in the u20’s since 2012…..remind me how many WC’s we’ve won since then?
> 
> I truely hope other countries take a run at it because the rising tide raises all boats.  Does the USNT failures help your lawsuit?


Damn, you are into your feelings!  Is your kid on that US U20 team?
Miss me with the lame shit of which you speak.  The US has been successful internationally because we have a massive country that supports women athletes while the rest of the world was focused on keeping their women barefooted and pregnant.  The US should be producing more quality players with excellent fundamentals per capita.

I filed a claim with the EEOC but I didn’t pursue litigation because I took your advice.  I found and excellent HS coach, club coach, and DOC and we a grinding now.  Ya know, we’re staying ready so we don’t have to get ready homie.  My player is happy, healthy and has accepted the fact that YNT isn’t a meritocracy.

Good luck to you and your player!  Here’s a dedication to you and your player from your homie MacDre:


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> The Mexican u17 team has trained and played 3x’s as much as the US u17’s in 2021/22.  That is a fact!


Damn, do you need a hug?


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## crush (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Damn, do you need a hug?


We all need a hug, that's a fact Jack. 3x of jelling to what? Zero? This age could have had any 2002 player but went with the youth, why? Why say no unless you had a good reason to say no. We had the #1 05 playing, the top really really good 04s starting. Jackson is 03. Where were the 2002s? Cooper can ball and she is 02. Rodman would have helped? I think most of the peeps I talk to who know a few things about this and that about soccer. We call it Futbol btw Dre. We all think the possession is missing and quality of the game is missing. Ganas? I did not watch the games. I saw highlights from the Netherlands game and the first two goals is on the GK, moo. I think that hurt the USA. I saw highlights from Ghana and I saw lot's of Ganas out on the pitch. I will watch Japan highlights when I see them.


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## paytoplay (Aug 18, 2022)

Happened again said:


> Great question - how much influence do the top college coaches have in this scenario?  I suppose what we shouldn't do is provide an excuse for their poor performance.  This same age group did well in Europe earlier this summer.  What changed?


What changed? Maybe our competitors know the difference between playing some friendlies vs an actual World Cup tournament. Let’s search the couch for some excuses: protected, safe, coddled DOCS, coaches, and a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable US program.


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> What changed? Maybe our competitors know the difference between playing some friendlies vs an actual World Cup tournament. Let’s search the couch for some excuses: protected, safe, coddled DOCS, coaches, and a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable US program.


Hey Doc, I have a quick question.  I’m trying to help my daughter achieve her dream of playing for the USWNT.  I’ve heard rumors that serving on the Board of Directors (or coaching) of my local club would substantially increase my kids chance of being selected for YNT’s, is there any truth to this?


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## socalkdg (Aug 18, 2022)

Lack of hustle, lack of speed, and lack of playing together.   This wasn't the top 25 girls aged 16-19.   They are choosing the wrong players, and once in the system you stay in the system even if other players get better than you.


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## socalkdg (Aug 18, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> What changed? Maybe our competitors know the difference between playing some friendlies vs an actual World Cup tournament. Let’s search the couch for some excuses: protected, safe, coddled DOCS, coaches, and a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable US program.


Nothing changed.   US has been losing to Japan at U20 for the last decade.   This age group doesn't have the best players playing on it, nor do they have enough playing time with each other.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> Damn, you are into your feelings!  Is your kid on that US U20 team?
> Miss me with the lame shit of which you speak.  The US has been successful internationally because we have a massive country that supports women athletes while the rest of the world was focused on keeping their women barefooted and pregnant.  The US should be producing more quality players with excellent fundamentals per capita.
> 
> I filed a claim with the EEOC but I didn’t pursue litigation because I took your advice.  I found and excellent HS coach, club coach, and DOC and we a grinding now.  Ya know, we’re staying ready so we don’t have to get ready homie.  My player is happy, healthy and has accepted the fact that YNT isn’t a meritocracy.
> ...


Yah…I owe you an apology for that cheap shot.  Pretty lame indeed….got all wound up. My bad!

Most importantly, I’m glad your kid found a good home!

My DD didn’t make the cut for the u20’s this cycle (was a provisional player so was in all the Camps) but  still has a shot for the next cycle based on her age.


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I am interested to see what happens with the u17s. The u16s played subpar opponents - that was a club-payoff window dressing show with little scouting due to Covid. Don't pay any attention, just like don't pay attention to CONCACAF blowouts. They are meaningless (except the games v. Canada  )
> 
> Typically, US early-maturing players can still overpower most of the smaller and slower international girls at 15/16 years old (there are exceptions like Nigeria). Then they catch up by 18/19. US U20 record is pathetic historically because of that. Plenty of 18/19 year old girls in this country to choose from for that team - shouldn't be any 16 or 17 year olds on it. But Nike has a say, of course, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


How did the U16s play sub par opponents?  

Anyway, plenty of logic in your statement...certainly don't pay attention to CONCACAF.  Agree that Nike has influence and they don't care about their ability to impact the experience level of this team.  Pretty cool billboard moment to have Moultrie on the field.  She's a great player but was clearly outclassed on many occassions, most of the time she was out of position.  

Certainly would have helped if the US had been more dangerous up front.  They couldn't keep the ball across the midline and were incapable of carrying into the final third...but the defense...out of position, poor communication, poor possession.  They looked confused, as if they weren't capable of directing traffic.  Time to rethink this team and look a bit deeper into the pool.


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> What changed? Maybe our competitors know the difference between playing some friendlies vs an actual World Cup tournament. Let’s search the couch for some excuses: protected, safe, coddled DOCS, coaches, and a bloated, corrupt, unaccountable US program.


Funny how sports competitions are decided on the field.  But feel free to grind that ax.


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

Happened again said:


> How did the U16s play sub par opponents?
> 
> Anyway, plenty of logic in your statement...certainly don't pay attention to CONCACAF.  Agree that Nike has influence and they don't care about their ability to impact the experience level of this team.  Pretty cool billboard moment to have Moultrie on the field.  She's a great player but was clearly outclassed on many occassions, most of the time she was out of position.
> 
> Certainly would have helped if the US had been more dangerous up front.  They couldn't keep the ball across the midline and were incapable of carrying into the final third...but the defense...out of position, poor communication, poor possession.  They looked confused, as if they weren't capable of directing traffic.  Time to rethink this team and look a bit deeper into the pool.


In Moultrie’s defense, it’s hard to have good positioning when your teammates are playing kickball and can’t deliver properly weighted passes to your feet in the attacking third.  I believe she had to drop back to receive the ball every single time.  I feel sorry for her because she didn’t have much to work with.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> The US has been successful internationally because we have a massive country that supports women athletes while the rest of the world was focused on keeping their women barefooted and pregnant.  The US should be producing more quality players with excellent fundamentals per capita.


This is my opinion as well. Related to your emphasis on fundamentals, there's also a silly dichotomy regularly heard or implied about having great athletes or great technical players. That discussion doesn't exist in basketball. You know, great athletes should be able to do rondos as well as lesser athletes - assuming they are trained to do so.

The USWNT is wildly successful. Unfortunately, success can often mask opportunities to improve. There was a saying in France about the wines in Italy and France. Historically, many in France believed Italy had superior terroir to France, but France produced higher quality wine. The (arrogant) saying with respect to producing quality wine was, "Italy takes gold and makes silver. France takes silver and makes gold." Right now, I feel like US soccer is closer to Italy in terms of fulfilling potential.


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## kickingandscreaming (Aug 18, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I am interested to see what happens with the u17s. The u16s played subpar opponents - that was a club-payoff window dressing show with little scouting due to Covid. Don't pay any attention, just like don't pay attention to CONCACAF blowouts. They are meaningless (except the games v. Canada  )


It will be interesting to see the U17's play under Natalia Astrain. Possession soccer is her wheelhouse. From my experience with that style, your CB's better be poised/masterful on the ball. It all builds from there.


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## MacDre (Aug 18, 2022)

frank schoon, August 18, 2022 at 9:11 a.m.
As I sat there on the couch with my notepad, wanting to take notes for tomorrow's SA comments, at the end of the night, there was nothing. It wasn't worth spending time for the problem is much bigger than the game details that I usually talk about at hand...

First of all, The USSF should do a study on body fat content of the US women soccer players. I look at the Japanese and Dutch women and they are all thin, and athletic looking. I see way too many big butts ,heavy thighs on the US women teams...

I had mentioned gestallt before, but the US developing strategy has got to change from atheticism to intelligent play. From day one it should be taught to the players that you CAN"t outrun the ball, nothing is faster than the ball. Once that is understood, then you play the game in a way that you let the ball do the running, not the player, for that is much faster...Of course that is easier said than done, for you have to understand the parameters that come with fast play, for example, positioning, field positioning and ball-handling skills,not fast running, but fast thinking. That in itself is part of the gestallt that needs to added to our game. The problem ,currently, is that we don't have the coaches to teach that for they likewise have never grown up in that type of old-fashioned gestallt.

Look at the dutch and Japanese when we played them, both were not about to fight it out with the US team, because we can kick anybody's ass, playing physical out there. You never saw a dutch player or japanese player try to outrun an American with the ball....forget it...but we will definitely try to for that is our gestallt that's been baked into our DNA from day one...Turbo, baby!!!

Both the Japanese and Dutch players beat our players with short fast ball movements combined with various players. You never saw them trying to outrun an American player in a mad dash down the wing or down the field, but you would see that display with our players because that's baked into our DNA....
                                          NEXT POST
frank schoon, August 18, 2022 at 9:46 a.m.
Note how fast the Japanese turn with the ball, on a dime, especially when they allow an American player to come very close. The make a feint, as if they will in one direction but go the opposite. We don't even do that. Why don't we see that with our players, simple, we don't have the coaches to train and develop that type of style. We simply train to straight forward, too direct, too simplistic and too predictable.

The Dutch are too smart to get in a foot race with the Americans. They only attempt a quick dash of about 5meters than quickly pass the ball off, perhaps it backwards making US chase the ball back ,leaving a big open space forwards but behind the American players to pass the ball. In this manner you don't have to try and outrun someone but instead beat 2 or 3 players through one pass. We just don't play smart soccer and that is due to coaching....So when you're told our coaches are all licensed ,what is that suppose to mean, Licensed???? This is a joke.

If you want to begin to increase the level of faster play, that means not run faster for that only slows down the game, instead there are other parameters that come into paly to FORCE a player to play faster. Instead of 11v11,full field, play it half-field. Or play 11v14, where the 3 extra players forces the other team, to look ahead,move, think and pass faster....It is the little details. Rinus Michels in the WC'74 practiced playing 11v11, half-field, full goals, never full-field. In other words time and space became of the essence and that requires faster thinking and moving.

In street soccer days,the kids on the teams never wore specially t-shirts or color pennies. No, ofcourse not ,you just played with what you wore that day in school. In other words, teams were never equal, nobody wore similar colors, which forced kids to always look up and remember who your teammates were and where they are situated. Unlike today, the coach just throws out the color pennies and seperate two teams. That was never done in my days of street soccer, where you automatically were forced to look ,think, prepare to where the ball should go ahead of time in the next move because similar color teammates weren't there. All this stuff became automatic to the kids in my days through playing. Today, that gestallt is lost and instead, we have some 'goofball' with a license directing you 'where to go, what to do, what color to where'.

Development of soccer needs a serious change and the first step is for player to learn to play faster which is done by forcing them to new parameters of play....


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> In Moultrie’s defense, it’s hard to have good positioning when your teammates are playing kickball and can’t deliver properly weighted passes to your feet in the attacking third.  I believe she had to drop back to receive the ball every single time.  I feel sorry for her because she didn’t have much to work with.


That very well could have been the case. She's now used to playing with experienced players.  The team and the coaching staff looked off.  Someone on here mentioned these certainly aren't the best players that we could put on the field.  Maybe, maybe not.

In reality this age group won't see many senior team players evolve.  Plenty of young talent on the current senior team to carry the torch for a while.  Ages will always overlap.  I mean, how long have rapino, morgan, et all been on the senior team?  seems like forever.


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## Happened again (Aug 18, 2022)

MacDre said:


> frank schoon, August 18, 2022 at 9:11 a.m.
> As I sat there on the couch with my notepad, wanting to take notes for tomorrow's SA comments, at the end of the night, there was nothing. It wasn't worth spending time for the problem is much bigger than the game details that I usually talk about at hand...
> 
> First of all, The USSF should do a study on body fat content of the US women soccer players. I look at the Japanese and Dutch women and they are all thin, and athletic looking. I see way too many big butts ,heavy thighs on the US women teams...
> ...


all of this based off of one age group that is firmly entrenched in the NCAA.  They've never been dominant and likely will never be dominant.  Way too much dispersion and conflicts.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Aug 22, 2022)

Congratulations to both Japan and the Netherlands for making it to the Semi Finals.   That Japan v France game was ridiculous!


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## GoldenGate (Aug 22, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Collage coaches and US olympic coaches have the same issues in the US with soccer. Everything is short term, based on the now vs building a team that plays possession + knows each other inside out.
> 
> Japan as a culture values tradition + working at something over and over as a group.
> 
> ...


Yes, Japan has consistently shown how they're the best.  Round of 16 in the last WC.  And we all remember how it went four years before that when they used their "culture values tradition + working at something over and over as a group" against our uncoordinated untechnical USWNT.  Yes, we should definitely do what Japan does. How can you argue against that kind of success?

I also really like what North Korea is doing.  They're historically done well at U20s, and if there was every a country where a "single group" controls the players, it's that one. But we also need to talk about Spain.  As we all know, that country is really doing things.  So great in fact that their women's NT has never one a major knockout stage game in the entire history of planet earth.  I can't believe the US has gotten things so wrong by going with athletes instead of circus jugglers.

You are totally right.  The US should make all youth girls in the country play together in a one-size-fits-all manner controlled by a single group.


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## paytoplay (Nov 11, 2022)

3 game losing streak


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