# YouthSoccer Rankings Back Online



## Coach_JimmyZ (Nov 3, 2016)

after the birth year switch, site is back up with updated rankings.  These rankings only include games played after August 1st 2016.

http://youthsoccerrankings.us/


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## soccerobserver (Nov 3, 2016)

I can't seem to get the rankings to load...has anyone had any luck getting the  SoCal rankings on the site?


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## Coach_JimmyZ (Nov 4, 2016)

@soccerobserver make sure the search field is empty first. if that doesn't work, try refreshing the page


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## GunninGopher (Nov 4, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> I can't seem to get the rankings to load...has anyone had any luck getting the SoCal rankings on the site?


It is working just like it used to. Like Coach Z says, the filters are dynamic. Once you start to enter something it filters right away. It also saves whatever you had last time. I suspect either you have something filtering out the results or your browser/version/setting isn't supported.


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## soccerobserver (Nov 4, 2016)

Thanks Coach JZ but I think the u19's are not up and running yet....I can get the rankings for the other age groups but not the 98's...


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## etc1217 (Nov 4, 2016)

How do these rankings differ from Got Soccer rankings?  Which one is more accurate/reliable?


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## madcow (Nov 4, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> How do these rankings differ from Got Soccer rankings?  Which one is more accurate/reliable?


It depends.
GS uses points gained from GS tournaments. The more you play, the more you earn, the higher you are ranked.
YSR uses scores from all of your games. So, they should be more accurate, but I have seen some confusion (especially after the age group changes) about 2 teams from the same club. Games and teams have been mixed up.

Play the teams in front of you. Win the games you should win and hopefully win a  few that you shouldn't win and your team will be alright. Rankings are fun and nothing more, really.


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## SCS Fan (Nov 7, 2016)

It's good to see the Youth Soccer Rankings are back and I'm thankful to those who run this site.  I've always wondered what the motivation/incentive is for the folks who run this site as there are no banner ads or anything that I can see that creates revenue.


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## TangoCity (Nov 7, 2016)

YS are way better than GS, but YS has MANY kinks to work out.  They have teams missing, teams listed multiple times, and for clubs with multiple teams in the same age group, often the scores are being given to the incorrect teams.  If you spot these and you care, you can email them and point out the mistakes for them to fix.  The games also only go back to Aug 1st, so they are missing most of the tournament season when current teams were already formed.


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## Wez (Nov 7, 2016)

It doesn't appear to distinguish between games played against flt 2 vs. flt 1 teams?


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## apmullaly (Nov 7, 2016)

YSR is run by one guy.  He's very responsive if you point out errors and will fix them.  YSR is more accurate over time because it ranks scores from multiple different games, GS only ranks based on its own tournaments and some of those are worth insane amounts (no matter the actual competition.)  YSR will become more accurate once more results are inputted but GS is always skewed IMO.


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## stork71 (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> It doesn't appear to distinguish between games played against flt 2 vs. flt 1 teams?


It doesn't distinguish it only goes off of the YS score and the outcome of the game.  If a team with a lower YS score beats or even ties a higher ranked opponent, regardless of flight, they will be rewarded.  Conversely if a higher ranked team, based on YS score, doesn't beat a lower ranked team by the difference in the YS scores they will be penalized.  It’s a great system since all games are taken into account.  The system is just starting to come back online so it will take a few weeks to get all of the kinks sorted out.  I have emailed the administrator of the site and he has corrected several issues within a day, so if your team is not listed correctly or has missing games just email the admin.


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## jrcaesar (Nov 7, 2016)

The admin is quite responsive. Part of getting the rankings to work correctly, if people are interested, is to "report errors" - click on the teams that you know can be merged/unmerged and help make those corrections. Each of us on this board can probably help fix 10 teams in the age group we follow just by helping with the merge/don't merge function. Add tournaments your kid's team has played in since 8/1 - that will help correctly connect more teams.


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## Wez (Nov 7, 2016)

stork71 said:


> It doesn't distinguish it only goes off of the YS score and the outcome of the game.  If a team with a lower YS score beats or even ties a higher ranked opponent, regardless of flight, they will be rewarded.


So a flt 3 team that is winning most of their flt 3 games will be more highly ranked than a flt 1 team that has a 50/50 record against other flt 1 teams?  Sorry if I'm missing something...


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## BeepBeep Boop (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> So a flt 3 team that is winning most of their flt 3 games will be more highly ranked than a flt 1 team that has a 50/50 record against other flt 1 teams?  Sorry if I'm missing something...


There is a U11 Flight 2 team ranked very very high that obliterates every team they've played. I haven't seen them play yet, but I just have a hard time believing that at this point in the year they're better than the above-average flight 1 teams I've seen play twice.


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## jrcaesar (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> So a flt 3 team that is winning most of their flt 3 games will be more highly ranked than a flt 1 team that has a 50/50 record against other flt 1 teams? Sorry if I'm missing something...


No. Go look at the Boys 2004s and 2005s that you comment about. You'll see where the good Flt 2 teams (Chavez, Galaxy) are ranked well above some of the weak Flt 1s. The rankings make sense.


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## stork71 (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> So a flt 3 team that is winning most of their flt 3 games will be more highly ranked than a flt 1 team that has a 50/50 record against other flt 1 teams?  Sorry if I'm missing something...


It really doesn’t matter about the flight it really is based on the YS score.  Example would be that LA Galaxy SB (2005 flight 1) is ranked number 1 (Cal South) with a YS score of 33.39 where as San Clemente Surf (2005 flight 3) is ranked 129th (Cal South) with a YS score of 25.94.  That means if those two teams played Galaxy would be expected to win by 7 goals or more.  If they failed to accomplish that they would most likely lose points and ranking in YS.  There are instances where Flight 2 teams are ranked higher than some Flight 1 teams based on the YS score and rankings.


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## Wez (Nov 7, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> No. Go look at the Boys 2004s and 2005s that you comment about. You'll see where the good Flt 2 teams (Chavez, Galaxy) are ranked well above some of the weak Flt 1s. The rankings make sense.


http://youthsoccerrankings.us/

How does it make sense?  Strikers SB Black (flt2) is ranked 11th, below Beach Lopez (flt2) who is 8th and had less points per game than Strikers.  17 of the 19 B04 flt 1 teams in SCDSL are ranked below Strikers SB Black (flt2), that includes Laguna FC and Strikers Mission Viejo who finished rank 1 & 2 in B04 flt 1 South division.

Just trying to understand how this "makes sense"...


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## TangoCity (Nov 7, 2016)

I have been doing this for the G04 and G05 rankings.  I have (someone helps with the G05) collecting scores of games from all tournaments and games (by hand) and then using excel solver to use a best fit to rank all the teams based off of scores.  Each team is given a "Strength" number and when those two teams play the difference between their strength numbers is how much one team should be the other by.  If they win by more then their strength number improves and if they win by less their strength number decreases.

Here is a link if you haven't already seen it.

http://coachingkidssoccer.blogspot.com/2016/10/cas-g04-youth-soccer-rankings-14.html


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## stork71 (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> http://youthsoccerrankings.us/
> 
> How does it make sense?  Strikers SB Black (flt2) is ranked 11th, below Beach Lopez (flt2) who is 8th and had less points per game than Strikers.  17 of the 19 B04 flt 1 teams in SCDSL are ranked below Strikers SB Black (flt2), that includes Laguna FC and Strikers Mission Viejo who finished rank 1 & 2 in B04 flt 1 South division.
> 
> Just trying to understand how this "makes sense"...


I’m not an expert at this but I would say that Strikers, with a GD of +43, have been playing lower ranked teams than Beach (GD +24).  Plus you are talking about a YS score of .18 between Beach and Strikers which is negligible.  It’s all about your opponent’s strength (YS score) along with goal differential.  I’m probably over simplifying it.  If also means that Strikers and Beach should be playing up at Flight 1 (IMO).


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## Wez (Nov 7, 2016)

stork71 said:


> I’m not an expert at this but I would say that Strikers, with a GD of +43, have been playing lower ranked teams than Beach (GD +24).  Plus you are talking about a YS score of .18 between Beach and Strikers which is negligible.  It’s all about your opponent’s strength (YS score) along with goal differential.  I’m probably over simplifying it.  If also means that Strikers and Beach should be playing up at Flight 1 (IMO).


That would explain the difference between Beach and Strikers (both flt 2), but not why 17 of the 19 B04 flt 1 teams in SCDSL all ranked below two flt 2 teams.


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## jrcaesar (Nov 7, 2016)

@Wez - It's the point that you've been making elsewhere: There are Flt 2 teams who should have been in Flt 1. The rankings support that. I follow Boys 2005 so I have a better sense of that group's numbers.


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## apmullaly (Nov 7, 2016)

Don't get to wrapped up in the actual rankings.  There are limited number of data points and YSR is nation wide so there are not going to be adjustments for strength of schedule.  Over time as more teams play each other and those data points are introduced into the system, outliers will fall back to the mean.  Over the years YSR has been a much more accurate predictor of team strength than GS.  If I'm scouting future opponents I always look at YSR to get a sense of their strength.  GS is rarely helpful.


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## Wez (Nov 7, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> @Wez - It's the point that you've been making elsewhere: *There are Flt 2 teams who should have been in Flt 1.* The rankings support that. I follow Boys 2005 so I have a better sense of that group's numbers.


I get that.  It's the fact that most of the B04 flt 1 teams finished below 3 flt 2 teams.  I'm guessing many of the top ranked B04 flt 1 teams would be more than a match for the 3 flt 2 teams that outrank them.



apmullaly said:


> Don't get to wrapped up in the actual rankings.  There are limited number of data points and YSR is nation wide so there are not going to be adjustments for strength of schedule.  Over time as more teams play each other and those data points are introduced into the system, outliers will fall back to the mean.  Over the years YSR has been a much more accurate predictor of team strength than GS.  If I'm scouting future opponents I always look at YSR to get a sense of their strength.  GS is rarely helpful.


This sounds reasonable, thank you.


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## madcow (Nov 7, 2016)

apmullaly said:


> GS only ranks based on its own tournaments and some of those are worth insane amounts (no matter the actual competition.)


Are you saying some GS tournaments are awarded insane amounts of points even if it has bad teams competing? Or are you saying that some bad teams are ranked so high, the tournaments that include these bad teams are unfairly awarded more points?


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## apmullaly (Nov 7, 2016)

madcow said:


> Are you saying some GS tournaments are awarded insane amounts of points even if it has bad teams competing? Or are you saying that some bad teams are ranked so high, the tournaments that include these bad teams are unfairly awarded more points?


Some tournaments are worth a ton of points whether they have a great group of teams competing or a so-so group. Other tournaments are worth a ton and have commensurate competition.


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## soccerobserver (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> I get that.  It's the fact that most of the B04 flt 1 teams finished below 3 flt 2 teams.  I'm guessing many of the top ranked B04 flt 1 teams would be more than a match for the 3 flt 2 teams that outrank them.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds reasonable, thank you.


WEZ, as Apmull said, the YS rankings will get better as time passes and more data points become available...the great thing about YSR being back online is that you will then have an objective third party ranking of the teams to support or your contentions about the proper placement of teams across the tiers in your age group...


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## galaxydad (Nov 7, 2016)

soccerobserver said:


> WEZ, as Apmull said, the YS rankings will get better as time passes and more data points become available...the great thing about YSR being back online is that you will then have an objective third party ranking of the teams to support or your contentions about the proper placement of teams across the tiers in your age group...


The great thing about these sites and ones like MaxPrep for HS football is their unbiased attempt. Over time their ranks are WAY more accurate than a GS site that only allots points to their own tournaments. 

They also take into account the whole of soccer not just tournaments where guests etc have a huge impact on results.


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## madcow (Nov 7, 2016)

apmullaly said:


> Some tournaments are worth a ton of points whether they have a great group of teams competing or a so-so group. Other tournaments are worth a ton and have commensurate competition.


The point value is based on the ranking of the teams registered. GS uses the 5 highest ranked teams in each flight. Each team in the top 1% of the age group is worth 10,000 points. So, most GS tournaments will accept at least 5 from the top 1%. That gives their flight a value of 10,000 points. You have enough age groups worth 10,000 points and your tournament becomes an elite tournament (for whatever that is worth). Tournaments like Surf cup who in the past only accepted a certain # of teams, could have the top flight worth 10K and the 2nd flight worth 8,500 (or something like that). 
Its a bit of a flawed system as a team from an area where there are a lot of GS tournaments (Nor Cal and the midwest) can get a boost from being higher ranked (merely by playing a bunch of tournaments). ECNL teams don't play a lot of tournaments, so would be ranked lower than other teams. Once the DA starts for the girls, you will see a large segment of really good girls teams drop in the ranking as they simply won't have the time to do any/ a lot of tournaments. Will they still get into the top tournaments if they apply? Yep. Based on history, reputation of the league and of course... politics. But some good teams will get left out in the cold.


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## apmullaly (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks for the breakdown of GS scoring.  I've still always found YSR to be a better overall gauge of actual level.  (When a team has enough data points.) Like any statistical model it breaks down when a team hasn't played enough opponents.  So it maybe wildly out of whack for a while.


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## dawson (Nov 7, 2016)

apmullaly said:


> Thanks for the breakdown of GS scoring.  I've still always found YSR to be a better overall gauge of actual level.  (When a team has enough data points.) Like any statistical model it breaks down when a team hasn't played enough opponents.  So it maybe wildly out of whack for a while.


I find it very useful because it shows league games and most tournaments and I can see who played who ,the date and the score and do my own comparisons based on what I might personally know about the teams . And by clicking on an opponent of any team I'm looking at I can see their record . There is no other site that gives so much information and so many teams .


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## Multi Sport (Nov 7, 2016)

Wez said:


> That would explain the difference between Beach and Strikers (both flt 2), but not why 17 of the 19 B04 flt 1 teams in SCDSL all ranked below two flt 2 teams.


Depends on the tournaments they have played in.


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## thedudeabides (Nov 8, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> How do these rankings differ from Got Soccer rankings?  Which one is more accurate/reliable?


I really despise gotsoccer for many reasons. First and foremost, their rankings are a joke. Yes many teams are ranked correctly but when they are off, they are off by a lot. I could provide numerous examples of teams that are off by more than 50 to 100 slots. If a team doesn't play in gotsoccer events but is beating highly ranked teams in league games, they won't go up much in the rankings. Another problem is that a team can go win a tourney in flight 2 or 3 against not such great teams and if it is a gotsoccer event, rake in tons of points that stick for a year. They do this on purpose because if they couldn't entice teams with an insane amount of points people wouldn't go to those events. They are essentially bullying teams to go to their events in order to protect their rankings. I have been following Youth Soccer Rankings USA for a few years and have tested out the methods on hundreds of games and their system works very well. Like any ranking system, there are flaws but this is by far the most accurate out there. Almost all games are counted and teams that underperform in wins or outperform expectations in losses see those adjustments, down and up respectively, with every single game. It is a far superior system than gotsoccer.


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## etc1217 (Nov 9, 2016)

So how long do the scores from each game stay on the team's ranking site?  GS deletes after a year or the next tournament - does YSR do the same?


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## TangoCity (Nov 9, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> So how long do the scores from each game stay on the team's ranking site?  GS deletes after a year or the next tournament - does YSR do the same?


How long would you suggest they stay on the site?

One year makes sense to me, but I would propose a system where they weighted the more recent games heavier than the later ones.  Obviously, personnel changes - especially once tryouts begin and the weighting could help ease the error.


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## soccerobserver (Nov 9, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> So how long do the scores from each game stay on the team's ranking site?  GS deletes after a year or the next tournament - does YSR do the same?


1217, over time I noticed that the YSR is much smoother and not as volatile as GS. Teams are on a treadmill with GS. They have to constantly play GS tournaments and win(!) to replace what is falling off of the 12 month moving window.

For example, I have seen a team use guest players to kill the competition in a summer tournament and as a result their ranking zooms up...then next summer they don't play or they don't have the guest so they don't do as well...as a result the points from the previous summer roll off and there is nothing to replace those points so the team ranking plummets...yet another reason why YSR is better in my opinion...


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 9, 2016)

From a statistical point of view YSR is a great tool to see how teams progress through the year. And, done without bias.


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## stork71 (Nov 9, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> So how long do the scores from each game stay on the team's ranking site?  GS deletes after a year or the next tournament - does YSR do the same?


Why not just email the admin of the site and ask?


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## TangoCity (Nov 9, 2016)

stork71 said:


> Why not just email the admin of the site and ask?


They really should make the process completely open source unless they are using it as a money making endeavor.


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## DAVI CAME (Nov 9, 2016)

Thanks for your information. It was very helpful and wise!


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## Dolores (Nov 10, 2016)

BeepBeep Boop said:


> There is a U11 Flight 2 team ranked very very high that obliterates every team they've played. I haven't seen them play yet, but I just have a hard time believing that at this point in the year they're better than the above-average flight 1 teams I've seen play twice.


Come watch us play this weekend


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## thedudeabides (Nov 12, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> So how long do the scores from each game stay on the team's ranking site?  GS deletes after a year or the next tournament - does YSR do the same?


If my memory serves me correctly, it is 18 months. While that seems like a long time, it isn't when you consider the statistical methodology used for YS. With GS, you can play in a flight 2 tournament against low ranked teams, get awarded an insane amount of points and coast for an entire year. It is a reward only system. That team can literally lose every game after that for an entire year and maintain their ranking. YS adjusts up and down every single game while GS ignores losses. GS is deeply flawed but until tournaments quit letting them hold them hostage, their monopoly will continue.


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## genesis (Nov 14, 2016)

Dolores said:


> Come watch us play this weekend


Why would we want to watch your team's bad soccer when there is plenty of our own team's bad soccer we can watch instead?


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## Dolores (Nov 14, 2016)

genesis said:


> Why would we want to watch your team's bad soccer when there is plenty of our own team's bad soccer we can watch instead?


I was speaking to BeepBeepBoop who was commenting on the team.  Sorry you have bad soccer to watch.  We don't have that issue.


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## genesis (Nov 15, 2016)

Dolores said:


> Sorry you have bad soccer to watch. We don't have that issue.


Oh oh Dolores (eng. Pains) why you wanna hurt me?


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## Real Deal (Dec 4, 2016)

These "accurate" rankings still do not include the first SCDSL showcase games.  Is it that hard to get those results?  Apparently @TangoCity has them!


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## DefenseWins (Dec 5, 2016)

Real Deal said:


> These "accurate" rankings still do not include the first SCDSL showcase games.  Is it that hard to get those results?  Apparently @TangoCity has them!


Do you have the link to the first showcase games?  I can't find them on the SCDSL website anymore.  Maybe that's why they aren't in here.  Maybe someone can email him the link and he can get them added for all age groups.


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## apmullaly (Dec 5, 2016)

Real Deal said:


> These "accurate" rankings still do not include the first SCDSL showcase games.  Is it that hard to get those results?  Apparently @TangoCity has them!


Seriously?  Right on the website it asks for users to link missing game statistics, teams that aren't linked, etc. Simple form to fill out and within a day or two things are adjusted.  From previous email exchanges its just one guy doing the entire country.


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## AsíCal Azules (Dec 5, 2016)

apmullaly said:


> Seriously?  Right on the website it asks for users to link missing game statistics, teams that aren't linked, etc. Simple form to fill out and within a day or two things are adjusted.  From previous email exchanges its just one guy doing the entire country.


The problem is that the scores from the first showcase are no longer accessible.  Here's the general link to the site...http://www.scdslsoccer.com/schedule/2016ShowcaseSchedule/index_E.html .  I have already sent an email to the site administrator for SCDSL but never got a response as to where the first showcase game results went to.


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## apmullaly (Dec 5, 2016)

AsíCal Azules said:


> The problem is that the scores from the first showcase are no longer accessible.  Here's the general link to the site...http://www.scdslsoccer.com/schedule/2016ShowcaseSchedule/index_E.html .  I have already sent an email to the site administrator for SCDSL but never got a response as to where the first showcase game results went to.


That will be a problem then.  If there is nothing to link to, those results won't show up in the system.  When I've linked teams to tournaments (Nomad's, November Nights, what have you) they show up quickly.  I'm not sure what you can do when the links don't exist anymore.


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## DefenseWins (Dec 5, 2016)

AsíCal Azules said:


> The problem is that the scores from the first showcase are no longer accessible.  Here's the general link to the site...http://www.scdslsoccer.com/schedule/2016ShowcaseSchedule/index_E.html .  I have already sent an email to the site administrator for SCDSL but never got a response as to where the first showcase game results went to.


I found a link to the first G05 showcase in the G05 thread.  It's the same exact URL as the 2nd showcase.  Such a bummer considering the more data points available, the more accurate the rankings.


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## TangoCity (Dec 5, 2016)

I have all the SCSDL Showcase scores for G04 and G05.  If anyone needs a copy send me a PM with an address to email it to.

Of course some of the scores were not reported by team managers.


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## AsíCal Azules (Dec 5, 2016)

TangoCity said:


> I have all the SCSDL Showcase scores for G04 and G05.  If anyone needs a copy send me a PM with an address to email it to.
> 
> Of course some of the scores were not reported by team managers.


Tango, which brings up another tangent.  Why is it so difficult for managers to report game scores.  It only take a minute to log in and record the score.  Trust me I have seen it done and my 5 year old could do it.  There are still unreported scores from the 2005's SCDSL Fall and SCDSL Fall Showcase...Incredible.


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