# U17 Women's World Cup



## Dubs (Nov 15, 2018)

Did anyone happen to see the US v Cameroon game yesterday?  Man, what a shit show.  Two reds from Cameroon and a kick and chase "stlye" from the US.  It was not fun to watch.  With the talent on that team, I really don't understand why they don't jut possess a little and build it up from the back.  They should be able to pick teams like this apart.


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## Kicker4Life (Nov 15, 2018)

Have you watched any of their (USWNt u17) other games?


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## Dubs (Nov 15, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Have you watched any of their (USWNt u17) other games?


In all fairness no.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 15, 2018)

Enjoy watching Sophie Jones. She is a talent.

With a spectrum of players from around the nation it looked like each brought their own style to the field. Therefore it was a mixture of unbalanced play.


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## Zen (Nov 15, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Enjoy watching Sophie Jones. She is a talent.
> 
> With a spectrum of players from around the nation it looked like each brought their own style to the field. Therefore it was a mixture of unbalanced play.





Dubs said:


> Did anyone happen to see the US v Cameroon game yesterday?  Man, what a shit show.  Two reds from Cameroon and a kick and chase "stlye" from the US.  It was not fun to watch.  With the talent on that team, I really don't understand why they don't jut possess a little and build it up from the back.  They should be able to pick teams like this apart.


Horrible officiating against Cameroon and in our davor.  Watched first half and we didn’t earn the first 2 goals, the ref gave them to us.  We were offsides before the red card.  We should dominate and didn’t.  Nothing to celebrate.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 15, 2018)

Zen said:


> Horrible officiating against Cameroon and in our davor.  Watched first half and we didn’t earn the first 2 goals, the ref gave them to us.  We were offsides before the red card.  We should dominate and didn’t.  Nothing to celebrate.


Not the best game certainly. Cameron didn’t do themselves any favors. I could not tell if there was an offsides. Will try to watch again. But the foul was outside the box, yet deserved a red.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 15, 2018)

Interesting article about the match :

https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/11/14/18095440/uswnt-u17s-beat-cameroon-3-0-group-womens-world-cup-uruguay


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 16, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> Interesting article about the match :
> 
> https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/11/14/18095440/uswnt-u17s-beat-cameroon-3-0-group-womens-world-cup-uruguay


It was an honest report of the game.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 16, 2018)

Zen said:


> Horrible officiating against Cameroon and in our davor.  Watched first half and we didn’t earn the first 2 goals, the ref gave them to us.  We were offsides before the red card.  We should dominate and didn’t.  Nothing to celebrate.


But who has better teeth?


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## Dubs (Nov 16, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> Interesting article about the match :
> 
> https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/11/14/18095440/uswnt-u17s-beat-cameroon-3-0-group-womens-world-cup-uruguay


Excellent description of the game.


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## oh canada (Nov 16, 2018)

Yep.  Agree with the stars/stripes article completely.  I am reserving judgment until after watching them play N.Korea and Germany.  That will provide a library of work to get more a sense of what's going on, but seemed like US players either didn't want to or were discouraged from dribbling.  Maybe/hopefully just a one-game thing. 

In contrast, the Spain v. South Korea game was fantastic to watch.  Both sides play great, attacking soccer, one-touching some AND dribbling a lot.  Final score looks like a route on paper but SK had chances.


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## Dubs (Nov 17, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Yep.  Agree with the stars/stripes article completely.  I am reserving judgment until after watching them play N.Korea and Germany.  That will provide a library of work to get more a sense of what's going on, but seemed like US players either didn't want to or were discouraged from dribbling.  Maybe/hopefully just a one-game thing.
> 
> In contrast, the Spain v. South Korea game was fantastic to watch.  Both sides play great, attacking soccer, one-touching some AND dribbling a lot.  Final score looks like a route on paper but SK had chances.


Well... it's more of the same.  Absolutely no connection anywhere on the field.  I just don't understand how they can't put anything together.  There are some talented players on that field.  Are the coaches just not holding up their end of the bargain?


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## Soccer43 (Nov 17, 2018)

Too many individual players, not enough focus on working together in an organized manner - what a beautiful game that Korea played, nice to watch some good soccer


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 17, 2018)

Nice to see the all the girls standing and all the girls singing our anthem. 
They haven't been to college yet to be brainwashed.
Not too many north korea fans at the game.


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 18, 2018)

North Korea wiped out USA 3-0.


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## oh canada (Nov 18, 2018)

I predict US will right the ship, beat Germany (who looks slow and beat up from a physical Cameroon team), and advance to the next round.  But I want to see them win the game playing soccer the way we are told to play throughout youth leagues.  Otherwise, what's the point of all the overhauls -- smaller goals, 7v7, 9v9 leagues, DA, etc. --if your top team is just going to play kickball anyway.  "Do what I say, not what I do."

Sidenote, Canada not playing great soccer either but sitting in good spot with two wins and 6pts.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 18, 2018)

And I want Santa Claus to be real.  I agree with you that US could pull through against Germany but it won''t be with the organized and precise soccer we saw from North Korea


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 18, 2018)

The US population is 13x more then a famished, sanctioned North Korea.  One would like to think we can do better than a 3-0 loss.  

So the reasons in order IMO are:

1) BAD US game coaching.  Carr sucks.  

2) poor US Soccer development. 
3) wrong players on the team.


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## LadiesMan217 (Nov 18, 2018)

eastbaysoccer said:


> The US population is 13x more then a famished, sanctioned North Korea.  One would like to think we can do better than a 3-0 loss.
> 
> So the reasons in order IMO are:
> 
> ...


HAHAHA One loss and everything is wrong. Maybe Carr would be a better coach if he didn't allow them to go to school and they can only play soccer, famish their family if they do not perform, and torture them when they lose.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 18, 2018)

It wasn't that they lost a match, it was how they played as a team.  They beat Cameroon and it is highly likely that they can beat Germany and advance but that wouldn't change what people are saying.


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## Dos Equis (Nov 19, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> It wasn't that they lost a match, it was how they played as a team.  They beat Cameroon and it is highly likely that they can beat Germany and advance but that wouldn't change what people are saying.


First, I think it important to state that this roster is comprised of incredibly talented players, and all of them have earned their spot through hard work. 

That being said, given these girls are mostly the same age as my youngest player, I can say the selection process was not designed to create a team with complimentary parts that fit together to create the greatest whole. It is an all-star team of outstanding individual performances. While it is often great to have one or two players on the field confident they can take on the opposing team on their own and win, having 10 with that mindset is less conducive to successful team play. 

The loss of possession you see is mostly due to poor decision making against skilled and smart opponents, not a lack of skill on their part. 

So it does come down to the selection process, the decisions they reward, and the rosters they create. That is a US Soccer coaching issue, one that I have yet to see any new league structure or new rule correct.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 19, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> First, I think it important to state that this roster is comprised of incredibly talented players, and all of them have earned their spot through hard work.
> 
> That being said, given these girls are mostly the same age as my youngest player, I can say the selection process was not designed to create a team with complimentary parts that fit together to create the greatest whole. It is an all-star team of outstanding individual performances. While it is often great to have one or two players on the field confident they can take on the opposing team on their own and win, having 10 with that mindset is less conducive to successful team play.
> 
> ...


I think there are some club teams in Socal that could give the u17 National team all they could handle and more.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 19, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> First, I think it important to state that this roster is comprised of incredibly talented players, and all of them have earned their spot through hard work.
> 
> That being said, given these girls are mostly the same age as my youngest player, I can say the selection process was not designed to create a team with complimentary parts that fit together to create the greatest whole. It is an all-star team of outstanding individual performances. While it is often great to have one or two players on the field confident they can take on the opposing team on their own and win, having 10 with that mindset is less conducive to successful team play.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better

Top Drawer Soccer article said that US had a "slight edge in possession" but didn't see it..
(https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/u17-wnt-fall-in-second-world-cup-match_aid45475)

They are a very talented group of players for sure but this article seems pretty accurate.
https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/11/17/18100195/usa-loses-3-0-korea-dpr-group-u17-womens-world-cup


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 20, 2018)

The US team coaching is like having clay Helton at USC.  Coaching matters.


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## Justafan (Nov 20, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> Couldn't have said it better
> 
> Top Drawer Soccer article said that US had a "slight edge in possession" but didn't see it..
> (https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/u17-wnt-fall-in-second-world-cup-match_aid45475)


What game were they watching, this was like a 70/30 possession game in favor of Korea?  What was disheartening to watch was how much more comfortable and sophisticated Korea was with the ball at their feet.  The only US player that seemed to be on that level was the girl with the frizzy hair, I think she’s #20.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 20, 2018)

Sophia Jones.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 20, 2018)

Justafan said:


> What game were they watching, this was like a 70/30 possession game in favor of Korea?  What was disheartening to watch was how much more comfortable and sophisticated Korea was with the ball at their feet.  The only US player that seemed to be on that level was the girl with the frizzy hair, I think she’s #20.


Maybe it was their hair or the lack there of.


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## MakeAPlay (Nov 21, 2018)

Germany just took them to the woodshed. 4-0. Thank goodness that US Soccer has the NCAA to develop their players...


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## Soccer43 (Nov 21, 2018)

Yes, because it doesn't seem to be happening in the YNT camps - what a disappointment for all


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## MakeAPlay (Nov 21, 2018)

Justafan said:


> What game were they watching, this was like a 70/30 possession game in favor of Korea?  What was disheartening to watch was how much more comfortable and sophisticated Korea was with the ball at their feet.  The only US player that seemed to be on that level was the girl with the frizzy hair, I think she’s #20.


TDS is a dumpster fire on top of warmed over $hit.


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## MakeAPlay (Nov 21, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Nice to see the all the girls standing and all the girls singing our anthem.
> They haven't been to college yet to be brainwashed.
> Not too many north korea fans at the game.


Honestly you should leave it alone.  You might have a different opinion if you had the police called on you by white people for doing normal shit.


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## oh canada (Nov 21, 2018)

Said I would wait till after the 3 group games to pass judgment.  From my couch, like some others are saying, this looks like a coaching issue to me.  From the opening longball punt on the kickoffs to the lack of meaningful connecting through midfield, there's just no patient and cohesive playing together.  US players attacked better today, but that was because Germany didn't high-press and pretty much parked the bus after going up 2-0.  Announcers kept talking about USA dominating possession, but duh, that's because Germany let them have the ball until the final third.  Cameroon and PRK high-pressed and USA couldn't handle it.

To be fair, US suffered from just plain bad luck too in this game, hitting the woodwork several times and having a handball call take away a goal.  But, they benefited from that same Lady Luck in the first match against Cameroon when their goals were certainly helped by freaky occurrences; they were totally outplayed in Game 1. 

Last, though these girls are definitely more skilled than older American players.  There's a difference between skill and technique.  Can they kick a strong/hard ball and dribble through cones really fast?  Yes.  But, can they thread a pass under pressure with the correct weight and get it on their teammates favoured foot so she can one-touch a finish?  Doesn't look like it.  Can they make a run off the ball into the right space and at the right angle?  Not sure. 

These girls still weren't part of the recent futsal wave and the US Soccer changes to 9v9, 7v7 etc. at later ages, so hopefully we will see the benefits of those play out with the girls even younger -- 2005 and younger--in future u17 WCs.  BUT, US has to be willing and able to find and choose those players.  Then, the coaching staff needs to let them and encourage them to  play a true possession-style of football.

Canada also got a cold splash of water thrown on them today by Spain's ars-kicking.  Everyone up north sounding like Canada really making strides with its program because they won first two games.  Wake up call!  It is ironic, however, that Canada and Mexico are through, and US is not.  Feel sorry for the players.  Hopefully, they can pull a life lesson or two from the experience.  Best to them and their families for representing the stars/stripes as best as they could.


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## MakeAPlay (Nov 21, 2018)

https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/10/3/17933046/failure-u20-womens-world-cup-symptom-bigger-ynt-problem


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## oh canada (Nov 21, 2018)

MAP - agree with a lot of the article.  I'll tell you why Davidson was passed over at the younger ages -- because she wasn't an "early maturer".  Physical maturity seems to play a big role in player selection at the younger ages for USA.  Granted, when facing teams like Cameroon, with players who are big and strong and physical, a late-maturing skinny girl may struggle.  But that shouldn't mean keeping someone like Davidson off the team.  Instead, sit her on the bench for that game and let her shine vs. all the other countries who she can beat with her technique and calm presence on the ball.

That said, I still don't think it's primarily a player choice issue -- primarily a coaching issue for me.  How many mini-triangles or diamond shapes did you see the USA in throughout the field when in possession?  None.  A player gets the ball and teammates are streaking up the sides or running ahead up the middle.  So, when #10 or #8 or #6 (positions) get the ball, they have one option -- try to kick a longer pass either on the ground or in the air to the runners.  Easily defend-able.  Contrast that with Japan or Korea or Spain who always have a triangle or diamond shape around the ball.  Players know this and so can easily pass out of pressure because they have 5 options -- forward, back, left, right, or over the top.  This is a style of play that has to be practiced and learned and practiced some more.  Did you notice how Germany in first 30 minutes continued to try and play out the back over and over again, even when USA was pouncing on them?  Eventually, after they couldn't get the ball out 7-8x, they kicked one or two long, but that's the type of commitment needed to develop -- as you know.  I give them a lot of credit.

Just confounds me why, when the winning recipe is right there on display for everyone to see with teams like Spain, Koreas, Japan, etc. why US (and Canada) can't copy it---or at least lose while trying!


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## Dubs (Nov 21, 2018)

oh canada said:


> MAP - agree with a lot of the article.  I'll tell you why Davidson was passed over at the younger ages -- because she wasn't an "early maturer".  Physical maturity seems to play a big role in player selection at the younger ages for USA.  Granted, when facing teams like Cameroon, with players who are big and strong and physical, a late-maturing skinny girl may struggle.  But that shouldn't mean keeping someone like Davidson off the team.  Instead, sit her on the bench for that game and let her shine vs. all the other countries who she can beat with her technique and calm presence on the ball.
> 
> That said, I still don't think it's primarily a player choice issue -- primarily a coaching issue for me.  How many mini-triangles or diamond shapes did you see the USA in throughout the field when in possession?  None.  A player gets the ball and teammates are streaking up the sides or running ahead up the middle.  So, when #10 or #8 or #6 (positions) get the ball, they have one option -- try to kick a longer pass either on the ground or in the air to the runners.  Easily defend-able.  Contrast that with Japan or Korea or Spain who always have a triangle or diamond shape around the ball.  Players know this and so can easily pass out of pressure because they have 5 options -- forward, back, left, right, or over the top.  This is a style of play that has to be practiced and learned and practiced some more.  Did you notice how Germany in first 30 minutes continued to try and play out the back over and over again, even when USA was pouncing on them?  Eventually, after they couldn't get the ball out 7-8x, they kicked one or two long, but that's the type of commitment needed to develop -- as you know.  I give them a lot of credit.
> 
> Just confounds me why, when the winning recipe is right there on display for everyone to see with teams like Spain, Koreas, Japan, etc. why US (and Canada) can't copy it---or at least lose while trying!


It's very difficult to replicate a possession build up type of style when most of the players don't come from that kind of club environment.  Many clubs say they teach/develop this style, but I rarely see club teams actually execute it.  That means this is not what they're being taught.  It has to be taught from a very early age and when you get a mix of girls into these youth camps from around the country for a short period of time, it's going to be difficult to make it work because every player is learning a different way.  That being said, I agree that the wrong players are being chosen, but I also know the players that have been chosen aren't being put in a position to succeed with the coaching they are getting.  That is clear.


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## Soccerfan2 (Nov 21, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/10/3/17933046/failure-u20-womens-world-cup-symptom-bigger-ynt-problem


I wish we knew what they all write down at YNT ID.  They leave what they evaluate and what they think of a player a mystery. Feedback seems like it would be helpful to developing the larger pool of players. 

I don’t know what the structure looks like in other countries leading up to the U17 World Cup, but I can imagine that at this age especially the opportunity for USA players to play together is limited.


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## Kicknit22 (Nov 21, 2018)

Soccerfan2 said:


> I wish we knew what they all write down at YNT ID.  They leave what they evaluate and what they think of a player a mystery. Feedback seems like it would be helpful to developing the larger pool of players.
> 
> I don’t know what the structure looks like in other countries leading up to the U17 World Cup, but I can imagine that at this age especially the opportunity for USA players to play together is limited.


I agree. My DD kept getting invited since they started, but never once did she get any feedback from the sessions. Her club coach was able to speak to one of the USSF Coaches andget a little (all positive). But, now she’s pretty much aged out, and never got any first hand feedback. Would have been nice.


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 21, 2018)

Need to clean house completely.  

So how’s the age change, disrupting all our teams/friendships looking now.


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## shales1002 (Nov 22, 2018)

U.S. needs to pick the best players and coaches. When you read articles that state, “Sixteen players participated in the 2017-18 inaugural season of the U.S. Soccer Girls' Development Academy, with seven picking up Academy Conference Best XI honors last year,” makes you wonder how many talented players did they leave off because they did not or could not participate in GDA.  Haven’t we seen this before ?  This is not to say they didn’t have talent, but they are severely limiting themselves all for the purpose of selling their product through a press release. Also, the coach left his top 4 players on the bench because of fatigue. This was a must win game. Win or go home. That too was a had scratcher.


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## El Clasico (Nov 22, 2018)

shales1002 said:


> U.S. needs to pick the best players and coaches. When you read articles that state, “Sixteen players participated in the 2017-18 inaugural season of the U.S. Soccer Girls' Development Academy, with seven picking up Academy Conference Best XI honors last year,” makes you wonder how many talented players did they leave off because they did not or could not participate in GDA.  Haven’t we seen this before ?  This is not to say they didn’t have talent, but they are severely limiting themselves all for the purpose of selling their product through a press release. Also, the coach left his top 4 players on the bench because of fatigue. This was a must win game. Win or go home. That too was a had scratcher.


I can't imagine this not changing fairly soon.  How many beatings are they going to allow the GDA girls to take before, 1. they widen the net to open up the selection process and 2. the beatings destroy the reputation, credibility and influence of the GDA program. They are almost to the point where they are going to have to take the best XI to start on the field and then they can load the bench with GDA players so that they can claim to be majority GDA players on YNT rosters. The one thing that none of the teams can continue to do is getting beat, and soundly, by the competition. However, know US Soccer, they will likely go back to playing, and whooping, teams like El Salvador and then publicly claiming how great these US player are. Just a joke.


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## oh canada (Nov 22, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> I can't imagine this not changing fairly soon.  How many beatings are they going to allow the GDA girls to take before, 1. they widen the net to open up the selection process and 2. the beatings destroy the reputation, credibility and influence of the GDA program. They are almost to the point where they are going to have to take the best XI to start on the field and then they can load the bench with GDA players so that they can claim to be majority GDA players on YNT rosters. The one thing that none of the teams can continue to do is getting beat, and soundly, by the competition. However, know US Soccer, they will likely go back to playing, and whooping, teams like El Salvador and then publicly claiming how great these US player are. Just a joke.


Well, if we are keeping our criticisms fair, the age-group changes and the GDA were not part of these players' selection process.  These players have all been a part of the US Soccer system before both were implemented.  My understanding is this group has had the same coach for 3+ years?  The benefits of GDA and age-group changes would begin to show in 2005 and younger, if at all.


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 23, 2018)

DA system has been in place for 10+ years for the men.  The men recently did not qualify for the World Cup.  What makes u think it will work for the girls?


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## MakeAPlay (Nov 23, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> I can't imagine this not changing fairly soon.  How many beatings are they going to allow the GDA girls to take before, 1. they widen the net to open up the selection process and 2. the beatings destroy the reputation, credibility and influence of the GDA program. They are almost to the point where they are going to have to take the best XI to start on the field and then they can load the bench with GDA players so that they can claim to be majority GDA players on YNT rosters. The one thing that none of the teams can continue to do is getting beat, and soundly, by the competition. However, know US Soccer, they will likely go back to playing, and whooping, teams like El Salvador and then publicly claiming how great these US player are. Just a joke.


US Soccer has the advantage of D1 NCAA Soccer to develop and filter out the best players for it on the girls side. It is a sad but obvious truth.  They get to select kids at 13/14 years of age and designate them as the future.  They then create a self fulfilling by calling other kids in only occasionally.  The YNT’s on the girls side are very cliquish and it makes it harder for the kids called in once to show their abilities especially if the ball is never passed to them or they possess skills that aren’t necessarily going to show up on a scoresheet.

They can misidentify all they want because ultimately they are going to pick most of their players from the top players from D1 who have performed and been developed by others.  Really the underlying problem is that most of the best women’s coaches are coaching BIGTIME D1 programs.  They are the best at identifying the talent and developing it.  It’s hard for the best coaches to give up well paying positions for the volatility of coaching a YNT so all you get is the hacks that are cronies of the current administration.


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## Sheriff Joe (Nov 23, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Honestly you should leave it alone.  You might have a different opinion if you had the police called on you by white people for doing normal shit.


Forever the victim.


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## Soccer43 (Nov 24, 2018)

With this unexpected performance just wondering what US Soccer will do next. If they truly believe they have the most talented players then I would think they should stick with these players and work on developing them learning from this WC.  In looking at the past 10 years though there is a significant turnover in the rosters from U17 to U20.  There are only 4-5 players that they seem to keep and carry forward to the next age group.  Do they question their own selections that much that they switch it out so much each age division rather than sticking with their selections to see them through?


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## San Diego (Nov 25, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> With this unexpected performance just wondering what US Soccer will do next. If they truly believe they have the most talented players then I would think they should stick with these players and work on developing them learning from this WC.  In looking at the past 10 years though there is a significant turnover in the rosters from U17 to U20.  There are only 4-5 players that they seem to keep and carry forward to the next age group.  Do they question their own selections that much that they switch it out so much each age division rather than sticking with their selections to see them through?


With a different head coach assigned to each age group, it’s not surprising the roster evolves over time. US Soccer tried a different strategy with this particular group, allowing MC to stay with this team for the past four years with few changes to the starting roster (except for several key injuries). In the US games I watched, I saw some tremendous athletes that lacked the tactical understanding of how to play as a team. So I guess it comes down to one of two issues, either US Soccer is making some questionable identification decisions or MC struggled to bring these girls together as a team when it mattered most.


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 25, 2018)

Soccer43 said:


> With this unexpected performance just wondering what US Soccer will do next. If they truly believe they have the most talented players then I would think they should stick with these players and work on developing them learning from this WC.  In looking at the past 10 years though there is a significant turnover in the rosters from U17 to U20.  There are only 4-5 players that they seem to keep and carry forward to the next age group.  Do they question their own selections that much that they switch it out so much each age division rather than sticking with their selections to see them through?


MC who?

He was an assistant at UCLA and then a head coach at USF and didn’t win anything.  Just another Hue Jackson, Clay Helton, etc.  What do we expect when the keys to the castle are given to a C coach. C’mon

You want a game changer?  Need to hire Radcliffe, Jerry Smith, Anson Dorrance——-PROVEN winners....and now maybe Amanda Cromwell who’s won at both UCF and UCLA.
1 million dollar salary guranteed for 5 years paid by US Soccer.


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 25, 2018)

Jill Ellis less than 393,000 per year
Klinsmann -  2.5 million per year
Klinsmann asst - 383,000 per year


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## push_up (Nov 26, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Honestly you should leave it alone.  You might have a different opinion if you had the police called on you by white people for doing normal shit.


Beating up old ladies in a wheelchair is normal? I doubt anything you do is normal.  People have good reason to be suspicious.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 26, 2018)

push_up said:


> Beating up old ladies in a wheelchair is normal? I doubt anything you do is normal.  People have good reason to be suspicious.


This is you, right?


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## oh canada (Nov 27, 2018)

Where's the love for Canada!!??  We did something USA couldn't...beat Germany.  Didn't even need PKs.  And by doing so, made it to the semi-final for the first time.  Still can't believe Germany played a 5-4-1 the entire game, especially after watching them dynamically beat a strong North Korea team in group.  Epic mistake by Germany coach, but glad she did.  

Either Mexico or Canada will be in the final.  Wow!  Spain still the heavy favorite but maybe they'll play a 6-4-0 and give other team a chance?


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## outside! (Nov 27, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Where's the love for Canada!!??


Respect for the players, but not the program after they hosted the WWC on turf.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 27, 2018)

outside! said:


> Respect for the players, but not the program after they hosted the WWC on turf.


Nice Trump card. 
Sheriff Joe if your reading this no pun intended on El Presidente.


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## Justafan (Nov 27, 2018)

outside! said:


> Respect for the players, but not the program after they hosted the WWC on turf.


The only problem with that is that they continue to play on turf even today here in the states!


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## Dubs (Nov 27, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Where's the love for Canada!!??  We did something USA couldn't...beat Germany.  Didn't even need PKs.  And by doing so, made it to the semi-final for the first time.  Still can't believe Germany played a 5-4-1 the entire game, especially after watching them dynamically beat a strong North Korea team in group.  Epic mistake by Germany coach, but glad she did.
> 
> Either Mexico or Canada will be in the final.  Wow!  Spain still the heavy favorite but maybe they'll play a 6-4-0 and give other team a chance?


I was impressed with the Candians.  I was also surprised (like you)  the Germans sat back with all that quality up top and let Canada possess most of the game.  Weird.  Canada backline super solid.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 27, 2018)

eastbaysoccer said:


> MC who?
> 
> He was an assistant at UCLA and then a head coach at USF and didn’t win anything.  Just another Hue Jackson, Clay Helton, etc.  What do we expect when the keys to the castle are given to a C coach. C’mon
> 
> ...


Yes, AD is a winner, but far from the answer. I like the idea of PR. He's navigating in a manner that could further the USWNT in direction that could continue an upward trajectory. But, would he leave Stanford?


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## Soccer43 (Nov 27, 2018)

Poor MC - lose a couple games and everyone is already having your wake before your plane even lands at the airport


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## San Diego (Nov 27, 2018)

Soccer Wire interviewed Anson Dorrance and asked him about his impression of the U17 performance. It was a very interesting read. A few key takeaways. He was impressed with the level of athleticism on the US side. He felt US girls at this age lack the tactical knowledge it takes to be successful at the highest level. He believes the real learning will come in college and lastly, he said the US girls don’t watch enough professional soccer or as he described it, they don’t immerse themselves in the game at the youth level.


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## Kicknit22 (Nov 27, 2018)

San Diego said:


> Soccer Wire interviewed Anson Dorrance and asked him about his impression of the U17 performance. It was a very interesting read. A few key takeaways. He was impressed with the level of athleticism on the US side. He felt US girls at this age lack the tactical knowledge it takes to be successful at the highest level. He believes the real learning will come in college and lastly, he said the US girls don’t watch enough professional soccer or as he described it, they don’t immerse themselves in the game at the youth level.


Sure would be a hell of a lot easier to immerse themselves into the sport (in that manner) if it were televised !!!  Live streaming sucks, and not always reliable. NWSL isn’t televised, Womens College Cup, No!   Maybe if people like Dorrance would speak to that, it would help.


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## Dos Equis (Nov 27, 2018)

Kicknit22 said:


> Sure would be a hell of a lot easier to immerse themselves into the sport (in that manner) if it were televised !!!  Live streaming sucks, and not always reliable. NWSL isn’t televised, Womens College Cup, No!   Maybe if people like Dorrance would speak to that, it would help.


Agree on the shame of no TV for  NCAA Women's college soccer tournament.  I think there is a large enough audience to justify a TV contract somewhere, with a focus on regional games in each market. 

However, my kids have watched EPL, Bundesliga, Champions League and the occasional El Classico for 10+ years most weekends.  Plenty of soccer on TV.  Been up at 6AM more than a few times to catch the England games live.  But NWSL (I think televised on Lifetime) and MLS (on ESPN) does not hold the same appeal once you get spoiled by watching European soccer.


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## Kicknit22 (Nov 27, 2018)

I don’t think the girls need to learn how to flop, roll around in full drama, like 80% of the guys game.  They need to watch Womens Soccer at the highest levels. JMHO


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 27, 2018)

San Diego said:


> Soccer Wire interviewed Anson Dorrance and asked him about his impression of the U17 performance. It was a very interesting read. A few key takeaways. He was impressed with the level of athleticism on the US side. He felt US girls at this age lack the tactical knowledge it takes to be successful at the highest level. He believes the real learning will come in college and lastly, he said the US girls don’t watch enough professional soccer or as he described it, they don’t immerse themselves in the game at the youth level.


Current AD teams rely on athleticism so not surprised by that comment. I find what he often says a duality compared to what he does as coach. Per his comments on tactical knowledge he at this time and place is not one to look to in this regard other than he acknowledges it. I do agree that real learning comes or can in colllege. MAP alluded to this as well. And, he is correct most girls don’t watch enough despite if it’s womens or men’s.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 27, 2018)

Kicknit22 said:


> I don’t think the girls need to learn how to flop, roll around in full drama, like 80% of the guys game.  They need to watch Womens Soccer at the highest levels. JMHO


That’s not the point. My girls think it’s bogus regarding flopping, but they do watch players in their respective positions and learn.


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## oh canada (Nov 27, 2018)

Agree with Lastman - I read a book that gave a lot of insight into AD.  Maybe "Warrior Girls"?  Not a coach I would want my kid to play for.   Maybe he's chilled in his older years.  As mentioned, he is all about athleticism.  Watch his teams -- direct and a lot of kickball.  Not the style I'd like to see US or Canada play.  And not the direction the World is moving toward.

Canada v Mexico tomorrow!  Go Canucks!


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## eastbaysoccer (Nov 29, 2018)

http://breakingthelines.com/opinion-pieces/why-usas-youth-development-continues-to-stagnate/


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## Dubs (Nov 29, 2018)

eastbaysoccer said:


> http://breakingthelines.com/opinion-pieces/why-usas-youth-development-continues-to-stagnate/


Many good points in this article but they've honestly all been made before.  Nothing new here.  Some clubs/teams encompass/teach many of the principles he says are missing, but the operative word is "some".... not all.  It's the mixed bag of styles, philosophies, quality that allows for what we have today.   That's not going away anytime soon, so the only thing to do (if you have a kid playing at a high level) is to get with the right coach/team for their development, which is subjective.  It is quite a quandry.


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## LASTMAN14 (Nov 29, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> This is you, right?
> View attachment 3484


Push-up? What, not you!? To much of a resemblance. Has to be.


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## dyzio03 (Dec 4, 2018)

Some interesting analysis of the U17 world cup performance and thoughts on player selection in the US youth system: https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/12/4/18124964/why-it-matters-u17-womens-national-team-lost-world-cup-again


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## Dubs (Dec 5, 2018)

dyzio03 said:


> Some interesting analysis of the U17 world cup performance and thoughts on player selection in the US youth system: https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/12/4/18124964/why-it-matters-u17-womens-national-team-lost-world-cup-again


Not interesting... spot on.  THIS IS the problem!


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## MarkM (Dec 5, 2018)

dyzio03 said:


> Some interesting analysis of the U17 world cup performance and thoughts on player selection in the US youth system: https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/12/4/18124964/why-it-matters-u17-womens-national-team-lost-world-cup-again


The article is spot on.  Thanks for sharing.


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## oh canada (Dec 5, 2018)

dyzio03 said:


> Some interesting analysis of the U17 world cup performance and thoughts on player selection in the US youth system: https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/12/4/18124964/why-it-matters-u17-womens-national-team-lost-world-cup-again


Agree with 95% of article.  BUT, the author equates "dribbling" and "1v1" play with direct, longball, and athleticism.  Watch u17 Spain and you will see that every player on that team can and does dribble effectively.  And, they have fantastic 1v1-playing forwards.  Defense and midfield uses dribbling sometimes and other times passing to solve pressure.  Contrast to US, they actually didn't dribble enough to get out of pressure but instead tried to one or two-touch pass without an open passing channel.  Not saying to dribble through two lines of pressure, but sometimes dribbling is necessary on the middle of the pitch to lose a single defender then open up a passing channel.

That's my only criticism with this piece -- it's not black and white -- you either possess and pass or you dribble and play longball.  No, it's more nuanced.  All the winning and great teams (mens and womens) have players who can and do both.  Looked to me like US players were overly pressured (coaching?) to pass at all times, eschewing the dribble.  Canada, MEx, Korea and Japan all dribbled more than US.

The development problem is that there are very, very few USA clubs who are dedicated club-wide to play a possession-oriented style.  Club-wide so a player is developed through the years into that mindset, not just a year or two with this coach then the next two years with a direct-style coach, etc.  It's the same in Canada.  So, girls (and boys) are not able to do it on a World stage, let alone in the selection camps.


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## Avanti (Dec 5, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Agree with 95% of article.  BUT, the author equates "dribbling" and "1v1" play with direct, longball, and athleticism.  Watch u17 Spain and you will see that every player on that team can and does dribble effectively.  And, they have fantastic 1v1-playing forwards.  Defense and midfield uses dribbling sometimes and other times passing to solve pressure.  Contrast to US, they actually didn't dribble enough to get out of pressure but instead tried to one or two-touch pass without an open passing channel.  Not saying to dribble through two lines of pressure, but sometimes dribbling is necessary on the middle of the pitch to lose a single defender then open up a passing channel.
> 
> That's my only criticism with this piece -- it's not black and white -- you either possess and pass or you dribble and play longball.  No, it's more nuanced.  All the winning and great teams (mens and womens) have players who can and do both.  Looked to me like US players were overly pressured (coaching?) to pass at all times, eschewing the dribble.  Canada, MEx, Korea and Japan all dribbled more than US.
> 
> The development problem is that there are very, very few USA clubs who are dedicated club-wide to play a possession-oriented style.  Club-wide so a player is developed through the years into that mindset, not just a year or two with this coach then the next two years with a direct-style coach, etc.  It's the same in Canada.  So, girls (and boys) are not able to do it on a World stage, let alone in the selection camps.


Very good point. There is a lot of confusion when people talk about possession soccer, because they think that it is about passing the ball around, often without purpose. The term positional soccer is more accurate than possession soccer to describe this style. It is about understanding where you are in the field relative to your teammates and the opponents, and how to advance the ball making sure at all cost that you do not lose it. People theorize about the most efficient way of advancing the ball in this juego de posicion, and driving with the ball on your feet up to the point where you face the defender and have to make the decision of either passing or stepping on the ball (and in rare occasions dribble) is actually the  preferred/safest option. So yes, players must be great at driving and dribbling (and of course at passing and controlling the ball, which are the two most basic technical actions in soccer). Then, as a team, you want to bring  to ball to the players up front that are experts in 1v1, where 1v1 are safest to do and most effective, typically to the wingers if your formation has them. What you cannot do is play with wingers in the midfield, that is a recipe for disaster and what often happens with these US teams.


----------



## End of the Line (Dec 5, 2018)

oh canada said:


> Agree with 95% of article.  BUT, the author equates "dribbling" and "1v1" play with direct, longball, and athleticism.  Watch u17 Spain and you will see that every player on that team can and does dribble effectively.  And, they have fantastic 1v1-playing forwards.  Defense and midfield uses dribbling sometimes and other times passing to solve pressure.  Contrast to US, they actually didn't dribble enough to get out of pressure but instead tried to one or two-touch pass without an open passing channel.  Not saying to dribble through two lines of pressure, but sometimes dribbling is necessary on the middle of the pitch to lose a single defender then open up a passing channel.
> 
> That's my only criticism with this piece -- it's not black and white -- you either possess and pass or you dribble and play longball.  No, it's more nuanced.  All the winning and great teams (mens and womens) have players who can and do both.  Looked to me like US players were overly pressured (coaching?) to pass at all times, eschewing the dribble.  Canada, MEx, Korea and Japan all dribbled more than US.
> 
> The development problem is that there are very, very few USA clubs who are dedicated club-wide to play a possession-oriented style.  Club-wide so a player is developed through the years into that mindset, not just a year or two with this coach then the next two years with a direct-style coach, etc.  It's the same in Canada.  So, girls (and boys) are not able to do it on a World stage, let alone in the selection camps.


I agree with what you are saying.  I will only add that it's unrealistic to expect the U17s to excel because they just don't train together enough to generate the familiarity and sophisticated style of play necessary to beat other countries that are more committed to winning meaningless U17 games and who can train together more consistently.  US players don't have nearly enough time together in camps to really teach positional soccer or anything nuanced really, let alone get to the point where they can effectively implement it in a game.  And it is hard for USSF to tell who gets it (or might) by watching club games because, as you note, few clubs are teaching it at a high level.  There are some beast athletes out there on teams that aren't committed to positional soccer but who are perfectly capable of playing it.  And a superior athlete with the potential to play at a more sophisticated level has a much higher upside than a lesser athlete who already does; it's just a matter of figuring out which 2 or 3 uber athletes in each age group will actually reach that upside.   Only 2-3 kids per year on average will make any meaningful contribution to the full WNT, so it only needs 2-3 of the world's best in each age group and, presto, it has easily the best team in the world as long as Jill Ellis doesn't screw it up; it's just a matter of finding them.  And that is why USSF picks better athletes over less athletic but more tactically sophisticated players at the youth level.  If it picked the better tactical 16 year olds, USSF would only leveling the playing field by eliminating the biggest advantage it has at the WNT level, which is superior athleticism.

In the end, USSF doesn't care whether its U17 team is better than anyone else's because it's only interested in the 2-3 players per age group with the perfect mix of athletic ability, technical skill and tactical IQ that it is looking for.  We know one U17 was head and shoulders better than any other player on the field, and I'm sure there were one or two other beast athletes on that team whose quality and soccer IQ didn't show because most of the team is incapable of playing a solid positional and tactical game.  Even if you look at the U20's WC disaster, three of the best players in the world are Davidson, Macario and Pugh, none of whom played.  The future of the WNT looks safe, even if the U17 coach is a moron.


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## El Clasico (Dec 5, 2018)

Is that the same excuse that the Mexicans are using for their showing in the U17 WWC?  That the players playing for American Club teams aren't able to get down to Mexico enough to spend quality time training with their Mexican counterparts? Oh...wait...nevermind... They aren't making excuses. They don't need to.


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## Sheriff Joe (Dec 5, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Is that the same excuse that the Mexicans are using for their showing in the U17 WWC?  That the players playing for American Club teams aren't able to get down to Mexico enough to spend quality time training with their Mexican counterparts? Oh...wait...nevermind... They aren't making excuses. They don't need to.


IDK, after watching them next to Spain it wasn't even close.


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## El Clasico (Dec 5, 2018)

Agreed but I don't see Spain making excuses either.  Do you think Pina takes a leave of absence from her Barca team to go do "positional training" with the other U17s scattered about? Only argument you could make is that that Spain is smaller so logistically, it would be easier but even that doesn't work.  We fly here which would get us across the country faster than the train from Barcelona to Madrid...

Either way, point is that USWNT is not safe as the rest of the world (using that term liberally) has caught up and are prepared to accelerate past us.


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## outside! (Dec 5, 2018)

It would seem to me that it would be very hard to identify players that are capable of playing possession/positional soccer if they are on a team that does not play that style.


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## Sheriff Joe (Dec 5, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Agreed but I don't see Spain making excuses either.  Do you think Pina takes a leave of absence from her Barca team to go do "positional training" with the other U17s scattered about? Only argument you could make is that that Spain is smaller so logistically, it would be easier but even that doesn't work.  We fly here which would get us across the country faster than the train from Barcelona to Madrid...
> 
> Either way, point is that USWNT is not safe as the rest of the world (using that term liberally) has caught up and are prepared to accelerate past us.


Why do you think we have had as much success as we have? Pure athleticism? The females and their programs of other countries put on the back burner?


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## Sheriff Joe (Dec 5, 2018)

outside! said:


> It would seem to me that it would be very hard to identify players that are capable of playing possession/positional soccer if they are on a team that does not play that style.


First touch will tell you plenty.
How they can pass as well


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## End of the Line (Dec 5, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Agreed but I don't see Spain making excuses either.  Do you think Pina takes a leave of absence from her Barca team to go do "positional training" with the other U17s scattered about? Only argument you could make is that that Spain is smaller so logistically, it would be easier but even that doesn't work.  We fly here which would get us across the country faster than the train from Barcelona to Madrid...
> 
> Either way, point is that USWNT is not safe as the rest of the world (using that term liberally) has caught up and are prepared to accelerate past us.


Yes, winning the last WC and going undefeated over the last 18 months is definitely proof that the world has caught up to our WNT and is accelerating past us.  We are doomed now that Spain has found one U17 who can play.  We need to immediately overhaul our entire system to be more like all the other countries that have never had a successful WNT before it is too late.

Good for Mexico and Spain's U17s.  In 10 years they'll all be hanging out in bars acting out various Spanish language iterations of Bruce Springsteen's Glory Days.


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## Soccerfan2 (Dec 5, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> I agree with what you are saying.  I will only add that it's unrealistic to expect the U17s to excel because they just don't train together enough to generate the familiarity and sophisticated style of play necessary to beat other countries that are more committed to winning meaningless U17 games and who can train together more consistently.  US players don't have nearly enough time together in camps to really teach positional soccer or anything nuanced really, let alone get to the point where they can effectively implement it in a game.  And it is hard for USSF to tell who gets it (or might) by watching club games because, as you note, few clubs are teaching it at a high level.  There are some beast athletes out there on teams that aren't committed to positional soccer but who are perfectly capable of playing it.  And a superior athlete with the potential to play at a more sophisticated level has a much higher upside than a lesser athlete who already does; it's just a matter of figuring out which 2 or 3 uber athletes in each age group will actually reach that upside.   Only 2-3 kids per year on average will make any meaningful contribution to the full WNT, so it only needs 2-3 of the world's best in each age group and, presto, it has easily the best team in the world as long as Jill Ellis doesn't screw it up; it's just a matter of finding them.  And that is why USSF picks better athletes over less athletic but more tactically sophisticated players at the youth level.  If it picked the better tactical 16 year olds, USSF would only leveling the playing field by eliminating the biggest advantage it has at the WNT level, which is superior athleticism.
> 
> In the end, USSF doesn't care whether its U17 team is better than anyone else's because it's only interested in the 2-3 players per age group with the perfect mix of athletic ability, technical skill and tactical IQ that it is looking for.  We know one U17 was head and shoulders better than any other player on the field, and I'm sure there were one or two other beast athletes on that team whose quality and soccer IQ didn't show because most of the team is incapable of playing a solid positional and tactical game.  Even if you look at the U20's WC disaster, three of the best players in the world are Davidson, Macario and Pugh, none of whom played.  The future of the WNT looks safe, even if the U17 coach is a moron.


USSF definitely tries to pick athletes who can beat other players. Many have called these the “wrong” players but I agree with EOTL’s argument that these players are the best candidates to be taught to play in a possession system. Plus I just don’t see kids that lack the skills to dribble or beat players 1v1 but are actually “better” players. What the US lacks in playing style is a symptom of our soccer culture and EOTL is right - YNT camp is not much time for a team and a style to gel. I also agree that USSF is not concerned with whether we win at U17, although I don’t agree they are only concerned about 2-3 players. The higher quality the overall evironment, the better the best will be. 

I agree with Sheriff too except I would go further and say first touch predicts almost everything else. 

US Soccer’s whole intent is to improve the overall soccer culture by requiring training, providing support and holding clubs accountable for playing soccer instead of kickball. DA was one first step in that direction.


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## Dos Equis (Dec 5, 2018)

Here I was worried about the lack of success of our various youth national teams, but apparently that is just part of the larger strategy for building the WNT. Only success at that level matters.  Good thing we do not hold US Soccer to that standard for our MNT. 

Our WNT is successful because the development and competition the players get in college more than offsets the damage US Soccer can do at the youth level.  The same cannot be said for the boys/men’s side.  But I appreciate there are still believers — just one more alteration to standards of play, or a few more league rules and mandates, and the promised land awaits. 

Of course, they have now defined success as qualification for the World Cup. Given that is automatic for a host, I look forward to our future success in 2026.


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## watfly (Dec 6, 2018)

Soccerfan2 said:


> USSF definitely tries to pick athletes who can beat other players. Many have called these the “wrong” players but I agree with EOTL’s argument that these players are the best candidates to be taught to play in a possession system. Plus I just don’t see kids that lack the skills to dribble or beat players 1v1 but are actually “better” players. What the US lacks in playing style is a symptom of our soccer culture and EOTL is right - YNT camp is not much time for a team and a style to gel. I also agree that USSF is not concerned with whether we win at U17, although I don’t agree they are only concerned about 2-3 players. The higher quality the overall evironment, the better the best will be.
> 
> I agree with Sheriff too except I would go further and say first touch predicts almost everything else.
> 
> US Soccer’s whole intent is to improve the overall soccer culture by requiring training, providing support and holding clubs accountable for playing soccer instead of kickball. DA was one first step in that direction.


IMHO the problem with a lot of 1v1 dribblers is that they think they're 1v3 dribblers.  I only saw the 2nd half of the Germany game but I saw a fair amount of dribbling into heavy pressure where the ball was lost.  If your trying to beat 3 players, 2 of your teammates are wide open, likely in close proximity...get rid of the freaking ball.  That's soccer IQ.

From my armchair, I think speed-of-play and gaining a numerical advantage are two of the most important elements in successful soccer.  Dribbling can slow down the play and when you dribble into pressure your at a numerical disadvantage.  Dribbling has to be used judiciously as a tool and not as an overall tactic.  If you look at the most effective dribblers they dribble at the defender at speed with rarely any fancy moves, they beat you by getting you off balance and blowing by you (see Messi).  Once a dribbler slows, stops, or pulls the ball back, they've lost most of their advantage and the defender recovers and simply "stands them up".  At that point they have to rely on some fancy move with a low percentage success rate.  The greatest advantage of a 1v1 dribbler is the threat that they will beat someone.  For whatever reason, coaches and players fear getting beat 1v1 much more so than getting beat by a pass, so they mark up that player with multiple defenders which then gives you a numerical advantage which can be exploited by a smart player.

In the context of this thread and the article, 1v1 has been defined as someone who can beat a defender on the dribble.  To me a true 1v1 player is much more than that.  They win 50-50 balls, they can maintain possession long enough to create space and make a great pass, they create space so they can receive a pass, they can pressure an attacker into making a bad pass, etc...  It's someone who can be successful offensively and defensively while under pressure from a single opponent regardless of what the battle may be.

I'm all for possession, because possession is proactive.  If you have the ball you get to make the decisions.  Given the option of having the ball and making a good decision vs. not having the ball and trying to make your opponent make a bad decision, I'd choose the former.  However, possession without a purpose and/or pressure, is just possession for the sake of possession and probably isn't any more effective than "parking the bus".


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## Dos Equis (Dec 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> IMHO the problem with a lot of 1v1 dribblers is that they think they're 1v3 dribblers.  I only saw the 2nd half of the Germany game but I saw a fair amount of dribbling into heavy pressure where the ball was lost.  If your trying to beat 3 players, 2 of your teammates are wide open, likely in close proximity...get rid of the freaking ball.  That's soccer IQ.
> 
> From my armchair, I think speed-of-play and gaining a numerical advantage are two of the most important elements in successful soccer.  Dribbling can slow down the play and when you dribble into pressure your at a numerical disadvantage.  Dribbling has to be used judiciously as a tool and not as an overall tactic.  If you look at the most effective dribblers they dribble at the defender at speed with rarely any fancy moves, they beat you by getting you off balance and blowing by you (see Messi).  Once a dribbler slows, stops, or pulls the ball back, they've lost most of their advantage and the defender recovers and simply "stands them up".  At that point they have to rely on some fancy move with a low percentage success rate.  The greatest advantage of a 1v1 dribbler is the threat that they will beat someone.  For whatever reason, coaches and players fear getting beat 1v1 much more so than getting beat by a pass, so they mark up that player with multiple defenders which then gives you a numerical advantage which can be exploited by a smart player.
> 
> ...


Agree with much of what you have to say here.  Let me try to unite a few concepts (and make a suggestion).  

A player is best able to beat their defenders not by taking them on 1v1, but with anticipation and their first touch.  I do not mean standing around and being able to trap whatever ball comes your way, I mean taking a touch that is controlled, positive and creates space and options (and being an option yourself).  That requires players with not only great foot skills, but who can anticipate where they can receive the ball with the best opportunity to either posses or attack (and preferably both), who can receive the ball at speed and make a controlled touch into a space they will be first to, who play with their head up so they see what is developing and adjust their decisions accordingly and, most importanly, it requires teammates who understand where they are likely to be, and how to pass it to that space (and not to where they were).   Now perhaps some will argue that the best pure athletes can be taught all this.  I respectfully disagree -- soccer IQ is both learned and innate, and you cannot relay on only one method to obtain it.  

Regardless, team play requires more time together.  The USYNT camp should run from June-August, 60-70 days every summer (starting at age 14), then additional 2-3 week sessions fall/winter and spring, and perhaps one weekend per month games (in addition to their club).  Player pools should be 60 per combined age group, able to create A/B/C teams.  Encourage clubs to pay for their invited players' travel, have US Soccer cover all camp costs and have some travel scholarships.  Stop funding club leagues, spend that money on the youth national teams and on coach education at the youngest levels.      

Oh -- and let the kids play high school soccer, because not only is it good marketing for US Soccer and what is possible, but it allows the kids, who will have a lot demanded of them, to still have a childhood.  Even CIF makes exemptions for National Team duties.  And playing HS will not lobotomize our best players, provided they have a soccer brain to begin with.


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## Soccerfan2 (Dec 6, 2018)

Dos Equis you’ve articulated lots of great things. I don’t think I’d want my 14 year old in camp for 70 days though! I think advancing team play and the other concepts you’ve identified at the grassroots level is key. Club level education and accountability can both help to drive that.


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## pulguita (Dec 6, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> Agree with much of what you have to say here.  Let me try to unite a few concepts (and make a suggestion).
> 
> A player is best able to beat their defenders not by taking them on 1v1, but with anticipation and their first touch.  I do not mean standing around and being able to trap whatever ball comes your way, I mean taking a touch that is controlled, positive and creates space and options (and being an option yourself).  That requires players with not only great foot skills, but who can anticipate where they can receive the ball with the best opportunity to either posses or attack (and preferably both), who can receive the ball at speed and make a controlled touch into a space they will be first to, who play with their head up so they see what is developing and adjust their decisions accordingly and, most importanly, it requires teammates who understand where they are likely to be, and how to pass it to that space (and not to where they were).   Now perhaps some will argue that the best pure athletes can be taught all this.  I respectfully disagree -- soccer IQ is both learned and innate, and you cannot relay on only one method to obtain it.
> 
> ...


Dos agree with your first paragraph 100%.  And here lies the problem as you stated with the college game and beyond.  At college, not going to develop IQ  without a serious investment of time and study.  Most will never do it.  They got there without it - why do I need it?  Further, from what I have observed is that the highest IQ players are typically punished.  Calculus students mixed with Algebra students and you punish the Calculus kids for being too smart cause its too much effort to get everyone else up to speed.  
You see it every week in the collegiate game and in the NWSL.  The same stupid mistakes over and over.  Coaches think they can change at that level but they can't.  They don't have the ability or they don't have the time.

As far as the camp all summer I think that would be a waste of time.  No soccer powers have their National Teams in Camp for that long.  Our problem is our clubs are not on the same page.  That is where all the development is.  I think the reason Brazil and Argentina have struggled so much in the current environment is because the best players go to Europe and are scattered about.  The Euro teams have most of their player playing in the domestic leagues of their respective countries.  Hence when Spain come together they all understand Spanish futbol, Germany comes together they play German, etc.  Until the US has a style and fundamentally develops the players, develops a true soccer culture (pick up, futsal, watching the best professionally leagues fanatically) there will be no culture.  If the come together in a US Camp it is essentially Babel.  Further that much effort put into a 14 year old is counterproductive.  Their is no guarantee that player will matriculate and further develop beyond 14.

Agree with your final paragraph 100%.


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## Sheriff Joe (Dec 6, 2018)

Come of guys, it's just soccer and there are only a few lucky women on the National team.
From what I see and hear most colleges play kickball and that is a big part of their training.
I imagine almost all non-USA international players would give it up to be a citizen in the US.


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 6, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Come of guys, it's just soccer and there are only a few lucky women on the National team.
> From what I see and hear most colleges play kickball and that is a big part of their training.
> I imagine almost all non-USA international players would give it up to be a citizen in the US.


Played kickball in elementary school with industrial strength red rec ball. I loved slow baby bouncies.


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## MarkM (Dec 6, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> Here I was worried about the lack of success of our various youth national teams, but apparently that is just part of the larger strategy for building the WNT. Only success at that level matters.  Good thing we do not hold US Soccer to that standard for our MNT.
> 
> Our WNT is successful because the development and competition the players get in college more than offsets the damage US Soccer can do at the youth level.  The same cannot be said for the boys/men’s side.  But I appreciate there are still believers — just one more alteration to standards of play, or a few more league rules and mandates, and the promised land awaits.
> 
> Of course, they have now defined success as qualification for the World Cup. Given that is automatic for a host, I look forward to our future success in 2026.


Don't we win simply because of the numbers?  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-womens-soccer/


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## San Diego (Dec 16, 2018)

So many interesting opinions here! And a debate that probably won't be settled anytime soon...  A couple of points I'd like to add. 

Regarding this idea of not getting "enough time together'. This group (including the coach) has spent four years together with a regular cadence of week-long camps and monthly 10-12 day camps leading up to the WC. US Soccer handed MC a blank check book which allowed him to invest a massive amount of time and money into this age group. So much time that a few girls had to self-select out of the program due to school and/or family commitments. They should be pretty comfortable/familiar with each other.

IMHO, I would categorize many of the players selected for this particular team as playing a more "selfish" style. Just watch them with their club teams... Many of them running around with the ball, taking on multiple players, looking to take over the game. Coaches allow it because this often times gives the team the best chance to win and parents encourage it because they believe it's the best ways to get noticed by college coaches and scouts. The inherent problem though is when you have too many players with this same mindset together on the field, they have very little understanding of how to play as a team. The importance of putting the team's success before their own. How to play off of each other.  How to play _*selfless*_ soccer. And it's hard to blame a kid when this is exactly what they've been encouraged to do their entire youth careers.


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 16, 2018)

San Diego said:


> So many interesting opinions here! And a debate that probably won't be settled anytime soon...  A couple of points I'd like to add.
> 
> Regarding this idea of not getting "enough time together'. This group (including the coach) has spent four years together with a regular cadence of week-long camps and monthly 10-12 day camps leading up to the WC. US Soccer handed MC a blank check book which allowed him to invest a massive amount of time and money into this age group. So much time that a few girls had to self-select out of the program due to school and/or family commitments. They should be pretty comfortable/familiar with each other.
> 
> IMHO, I would categorize many of the players selected for this particular team as playing a more "selfish" style. Just watch them with their club teams... Many of them running around with the ball, taking on multiple players, looking to take over the game. Coaches allow it because this often times gives the team the best chance to win and parents encourage it because they believe it's the best ways to get noticed by college coaches and scouts. The inherent problem though is when you have too many players with this same mindset together on the field, they have very little understanding of how to play as a team. The importance of putting the team's success before their own. How to play off of each other.  How to play _*selfless*_ soccer. And it's hard to blame a kid when this is exactly what they've been encouraged to do their entire youth careers.


This comes third hand to me but I was told a person within the US Soccer program spoke up about this group and stated their selections where not the right ones for the very reasons you mentioned.


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## Justafan (Dec 16, 2018)

San Diego said:


> So many interesting opinions here! And a debate that probably won't be settled anytime soon...  A couple of points I'd like to add.
> 
> Regarding this idea of not getting "enough time together'. This group (including the coach) has spent four years together with a regular cadence of week-long camps and monthly 10-12 day camps leading up to the WC.


We’ve been using this lame ass excuse ever since we started losing with our men’s national basketball team.  Oh yeah I forgot that all the foreign players from other countries all play on the same club/professional team and spend hours after their regular practice to practice for the national team.


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## Kicknit22 (Dec 16, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Played kickball in elementary school with industrial strength red rec ball. I loved slow baby bouncies.


I wish I could give multiple rankings on this! I agree, Too funny! Winner!


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 16, 2018)

Kicknit22 said:


> I wish I could give multiple rankings on this! I agree, Too funny! Winner!


Our friends host an annual kickball tournament. Besides a red ball we have plenty of red cups.


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## Kicknit22 (Dec 16, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Our friends host an annual kickball tournament. Besides a red ball we have plenty of red cups.


Got to!


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## MakeAPlay (Dec 19, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> This comes third hand to me but I was told a person within the US Soccer program spoke up about this group and stated their selections where not the right ones for the very reasons you mentioned.


Too bad that person wasn't listened too...


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## electrichead72 (Dec 19, 2018)

San Diego said:


> IMHO, I would categorize many of the players selected for this particular team as playing a more "selfish" style. Just watch them with their club teams... Many of them running around with the ball, taking on multiple players, looking to take over the game. Coaches allow it because this often times gives the team the best chance to win and parents encourage it because they believe it's the best ways to get noticed by college coaches and scouts. The inherent problem though is when you have too many players with this same mindset together on the field, they have very little understanding of how to play as a team. The importance of putting the team's success before their own. How to play off of each other.  How to play _*selfless*_ soccer. And it's hard to blame a kid when this is exactly what they've been encouraged to do their entire youth careers.


What you're describing here is what I see a lot.

A kid thinks that they are Messi, trying to dribble through the entire defending team. The parents on the sidelines hooping and hollering about how they're a superstar and to go all the way, or to "Take a shot!!!" from about 40 yards out.

This usually leads to them losing the ball, overlooking some teammates that were in a better position, and essentially not helping the team, or hurting them depending on where on the field they lose the ball.

There is a balance that the player has to find and recognize. When to dribble, when to pass or when to shoot. Sounds obvious, but the timing on these activities is hard to tie down for a lot of these young players. I'm not sure if this is a training thing or a soccer intelligence thing, but I see it so often, and there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to correct it.


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## Dos Equis (Dec 20, 2018)

electrichead72 said:


> I'm not sure if this is a training thing or a soccer intelligence thing, but I see it so often, and there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to correct it.


You cannot build soccer IQ from zero, but neither does IQ arrive fully formed -- it needs training, experience and competition, taking chances and learning from mistakes.

What puzzles is the inability for US Soccer to identify this IQ, and target development of these players.  Nor understand that several of their rules and policies actually discourage the development of soccer IQ (including substitution rules, outside competition prohibitions, etc.)


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## espola (Dec 20, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> You cannot build soccer IQ from zero, but neither does IQ arrive fully formed -- it needs training, experience and competition, taking chances and learning from mistakes.
> 
> What puzzles is the inability for US Soccer to identify this IQ, and target development of these players.  Nor understand that several of their rules and policies actually discourage the development of soccer IQ (including substitution rules, outside competition prohibitions, etc.)


If this website had not been scrubbed at least twice by technical errors, you could read my opinions about DA from its founding in 2007-8.  In summary, if the DA objective was to produce world-class competitive players in 10 years (does anyone else remember that promise?) they should have started with 10- to 12-year-olds.  Instead, they just renamed their best older boys teams and increased the fees.


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## El Clasico (Dec 20, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> You cannot build soccer IQ from zero, but neither does IQ arrive fully formed -- it needs training, experience and competition, taking chances and learning from mistakes.
> 
> What puzzles is the inability for US Soccer to identify this IQ, and target development of these players.  Nor understand that several of their rules and policies actually discourage the development of soccer IQ (including substitution rules, outside competition prohibitions, etc.)


This a hundred times!! Biggest single factor in my mind is the amount of money in American Soccer.  Because every decision is made with $$ being a factor, the powers that be will always pick their own interest over anything else.  I have yet to hear ONE good reason for prohibiting outside competitions. This is a tremendous source of soccer IQ development.  Why the need for so much control of the players?


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## MarkM (Dec 20, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> You cannot build soccer IQ from zero, but neither does IQ arrive fully formed -- it needs training, experience and competition, taking chances and learning from mistakes.
> 
> What puzzles is the inability for US Soccer to identify this IQ, and target development of these players.  Nor understand that several of their rules and policies actually discourage the development of soccer IQ (including substitution rules, outside competition prohibitions, etc.)


I would agree with most of this except the reference to the substitution rules.  Liberal substitution rules can result in kids getting yanked when they make mistakes.  And putting in a kid to press for 25 minute stretches before they tucker out doesn't build soccer IQ either.  Playing good, strategic defense for 45 minutes takes a much higher IQ than 25 or even 35 minutes.


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## End of the Line (Dec 20, 2018)

MarkM said:


> I would agree with most of this except the reference to the substitution rules.  Liberal substitution rules can result in kids getting yanked when they make mistakes.  And putting in a kid to press for 25 minute stretches before they tucker out doesn't build soccer IQ either.  Playing good, strategic defense for 45 minutes takes a much higher IQ than 25 or even 35 minutes.


Rules that limit a good coach's ability to make good decisions because you're worried that bad coaches will make bad decisions is a very poor reason to make a rule at the elite soccer level.  Bad soccer coaches can make a lot of very bad substitution decisions with limited substitutions too.  They can work kids too hard when she otherwise could have gotten a break, increasing the risk of injury.  They can leave an injured kid in a game hoping the injury isn't serious when subbing them out and actually evaluating them is always the better solution.  The coach might play down a player while their best player spends 10 minutes going through concussion protocol, which leaves all 10 kids having to press harder to make up for being short a player, rather than the one kid in your example.

Where's your medical study proving that forcing 6 kids a game to play 90 minutes is safer than allowing a break and reentry?  Or do you not care about the safety of the players because you're more worried about good, strategic defense in that game?


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## Kicker4Life (Dec 20, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> Rules that limit a good coach's ability to make good decisions because you're worried that bad coaches will make bad decisions is a very poor reason to make a rule at the elite soccer level.  Bad soccer coaches can make a lot of very bad substitution decisions with limited substitutions too.  They can work kids too hard when she otherwise could have gotten a break, increasing the risk of injury.  They can leave an injured kid in a game hoping the injury isn't serious when subbing them out and actually evaluating them is always the better solution.  The coach might play down a player while their best player spends 10 minutes going through concussion protocol, which leaves all 10 kids having to press harder to make up for being short a player, rather than the one kid in your example.
> 
> Where's your medical study proving that forcing 6 kids a game to play 90 minutes is safer than allowing a break and reentry?  Or do you not care about the safety of the players because you're more worried about good, strategic defense in that game?


Ok, ok....I give....I’ll be the one to ask just 2 questions (maybe you’ll actually answer one)

1) You’ve spend countless posts regurgitating the same arguement. You obviously have a position.  So what is your recommendation for a young, elite female soccer player.  What would you suggest/recommend this player do when deciding where to play next season and why?

2) Can you show me on a doll where The DA hurt you?


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## espola (Dec 20, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> Ok, ok....I give....I’ll be the one to ask just 2 questions (maybe you’ll actually answer one)
> 
> 1) You’ve spend countless posts regurgitating the same arguement. You obviously have a position.  So what is your recommendation for a young, elite female soccer player.  What would you suggest/recommend this player do when deciding where to play next season and why?
> 
> 2) Can you show me on a doll where The DA hurt you?


It's up around the head.  USSFDA is trying to mindfuck us.


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## MarkM (Dec 20, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> Rules that limit a good coach's ability to make good decisions because you're worried that bad coaches will make bad decisions is a very poor reason to make a rule at the elite soccer level.  Bad soccer coaches can make a lot of very bad substitution decisions with limited substitutions too.  They can work kids too hard when she otherwise could have gotten a break, increasing the risk of injury.  They can leave an injured kid in a game hoping the injury isn't serious when subbing them out and actually evaluating them is always the better solution.  The coach might play down a player while their best player spends 10 minutes going through concussion protocol, which leaves all 10 kids having to press harder to make up for being short a player, rather than the one kid in your example.
> 
> Where's your medical study proving that forcing 6 kids a game to play 90 minutes is safer than allowing a break and reentry?  Or do you not care about the safety of the players because you're more worried about good, strategic defense in that game?


You are a hoot.  You are right, of course.  The downside of playing more is an increase risk of injury.  You should probably encourage kids not to play at all if you are really concerned about injury.  But you're not; just a fraud that's way too concerned about weather at events you don't attend.  Self-righteously shame parents about letting their kids play 80 or 90 minutes; to do so, you make up some arbitrary line about how many minutes are too much.  Pathetic.

Getting back to soccer IQ; my point stands uncontested - although I would like to read Dos Equis' take since my beer-drinking friend seems to know a lot more soccer than I do.


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 20, 2018)

MarkM said:


> You are a hoot.  You are right, of course.  The downside of playing more is an increase risk of injury.  You should probably encourage kids not to play at all if you are really concerned about injury.  But you're not; just a fraud that's way too concerned about weather at events you don't attend.  Self-righteously shame parents about letting their kids play 80 or 90 minutes; to do so, you make up some arbitrary line about how many minutes are too much.  Pathetic.
> 
> Getting back to soccer IQ; my point stands uncontested - although I would like to read Dos Equis' take since my beer-drinking friend seems to know a lot more soccer than I do.


You owe me a beer.


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## Kicker4Life (Dec 20, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> You owe me a beer.


If you meet me at Hop Saint later I’ll buy you 2. They are tapping the Special edition Resilience IPA tonight. (Resilience is a special recipe that Sierra Nevada shared with certain breweries and all proceeds go to support victims of the Camp fire)


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## LASTMAN14 (Dec 20, 2018)

Kicker4Life said:


> If you meet me at Hop Saint later I’ll buy you 2. They are tapping the Special edition Resilience IPA tonight. (Resilience is a special recipe that Sierra Nevada shared with certain breweries and all proceeds go to support victims of the Camp fire)


Dam! Love that place! Meeting co-workers  for dinner. Bummed!


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## Kicker4Life (Dec 20, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Dam! Love that place! Meeting co-workers in EL Segundo for dinner. Bummed!


Hit me up next time your heading there. I’ll walk over


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## Dos Equis (Dec 21, 2018)

MarkM said:


> You are a hoot.  You are right, of course.  The downside of playing more is an increase risk of injury.  You should probably encourage kids not to play at all if you are really concerned about injury.  But you're not; just a fraud that's way too concerned about weather at events you don't attend.  Self-righteously shame parents about letting their kids play 80 or 90 minutes; to do so, you make up some arbitrary line about how many minutes are too much.  Pathetic.
> 
> Getting back to soccer IQ; my point stands uncontested - although I would like to read Dos Equis' take since my beer-drinking friend seems to know a lot more soccer than I do.


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## Dos Equis (Dec 21, 2018)

Apologize for the initial blank reply.  My beer drinking is less frequent these days and, after a brief romance with tequila, I have found that wine more suits my passions.

I understand that there are arguments both for and against DA substitution rules, and while I think the arguments against (which do include increased risk of injury, among others), far outnumber those in favor (game fitness and management), I think reasonable people can come to different conclusions, and this probably has been and should be a separate conversation. 

My point highlighting the rule is similar to my issue with some other rules and decisions US Soccer has made (the build-out line, the college ID camp rules, the entire process to hire a new MNT coach).  US Soccer has a bad habit of focusing on the symptoms, not the underlying disease, and then providing morphine, not medicine. Bad coaches will still make bad decisions and fail in player development, regardless of the rules. 

When it comes to club (and to rec), US Soccer should be focusing on coaching education and development, providing a steady stream of training and development programs and guidelines (where have you gone, Claudio Reyna?), and identifying the best coaches and rewarding them (and their players).  The should rely on the coaches and families to make decisions, and provide more tools to help them make the right ones (not try to force their desires upon them).  

Ironically, in my years as a club parent, in games that mattered, when good coaches were in charge, I have seen the majority of a team play the full game, and the substitution look very similar to what the DA desires, without the need for any rule dictating it to be so.


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## MarkM (Dec 21, 2018)

Dos Equis said:


> Apologize for the initial blank reply.  My beer drinking is less frequent these days and, after a brief romance with tequila, I have found that wine more suits my passions.
> 
> I understand that there are arguments both for and against DA substitution rules, and while I think the arguments against (which do include increased risk of injury, among others), far outnumber those in favor (game fitness and management), I think reasonable people can come to different conclusions, and this probably has been and should be a separate conversation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the thoughtful response.


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## End of the Line (Dec 23, 2018)

MarkM said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful response.


Goodness knows you aren't capable.


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## Soccer43 (Dec 29, 2018)

usually Top Drawer Soccer is a bit of a cheerleader for US Soccer YNT but not in this article.  It will be interesting to see what is considered "cleaning house" for US Soccer

*"Best and Worst of the U.S. YNT in 2018*"
_"Worst Youth National Team Moments of 2018 _
_U.S. Women’s Youth National Team Struggles _

_While the Men’s Youth National Team enjoyed some highs in 2018, the Women’s Youth National Team was left with a number of embarrassing results. The U17 WNT finished last in Group C at the 2018 Women’s U17 World Cup in Uruguay. Meanwhile, regional rival Mexico announced its place on the world stage with an appearance in the championship game against Spain at the same tournament. _


_The U20 Women’s National Team had a bit more success at the Women’s U20 World Cup. USA finished third in Group C. Failing to advance from group stage in either age group is a blemish on the women’s youth program. There is a silver lining to this dark spell though. The U.S. Soccer Federation is cleaning house for 2019. The Federation is hiring a new Technical Director to oversee the program, which could be a complete shift in the program for the future. "_


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