# Dirty players



## zebrafish (Aug 26, 2016)

Another thread and a recent game with my GU9 daughter got me thinking about dealing with dirty players. I think the days are gone for my own kid where games are clean and kids generally follow the rules. Nothing like watching a 9 year old girl lay an opponent out with a forearm across a kid's face, then 5 minutes later run up behind a kid and lay a shoulder in the back to blow up a player without coming anywhere near the ball, then 5 minutes later lay a shoulder into a third player and knock them 4 feet sideways-- to make your jaw hit the floor.

As a coach, what have you done (or seen your coach do) and has it been helpful when you face a player or team that plays outside the boundaries?

Is it different for girls vs boys? Does age matter?

Obviously, without disrupting the game, little can be done as a sideline parent.

Have you taught your child anything you feel is helpful in dealing with this? Or does everyone have to just try and survive and hope for a decent ref who is willing/able/competent to deal with the issue.


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## Bernie Sanders (Aug 26, 2016)

Anyone who pushes my little princess is dirty, and uncouth.


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## zebrafish (Aug 26, 2016)

Fortunately, Bernie, none of the fouls were committed on my kid.

She is bigger and perhaps at this age, kids might be a little more intimidated by her. 

Their elbows and forearms hit her shin guards.


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## zebrafish (Aug 26, 2016)

Bernie Sanders said:


> Anyone who pushes my little princess is dirty, and uncouth.


She plays... left wing?


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## Laced (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm not sure you can call a 9 year old player "dirty." At that age, some kids don't have full control of their bodies. They by instinct put forth their arms more as way to protect themselves while hurting other kids unintentionally. I'd be much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt than a 14 year old who does the same.


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## TangoCity (Aug 26, 2016)

Well, is it dirty to "pinch and twist" and to pull pony tails?  If so, then there are dirty players at pretty much every age.  Just that the 17 year olds can pull and twist harder than the 9-12 year olds.


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## zebrafish (Aug 26, 2016)

Laced said:


> I'm not sure you can call a 9 year old player "dirty." At that age, some kids don't have full control of their bodies. They by instinct put forth their arms more as way to protect themselves while hurting other kids unintentionally. I'd be much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt than a 14 year old who does the same.


I'd say until last weekend I'd agree with you. Wish I could post the video, but it wouldn't be the proper thing to do. I do think that kids at this age are prone to overdoing it with a suggestion or not knowing the proper context or degree with which to apply a concept. They may "try something on for size". You'll have to just take my word that this one kid layed three players out in a matter of 15 minutes and it wasn't a matter of lack of coordination or body control. Fortunately, no one was hurt.


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## Flipthrow (Aug 26, 2016)

Some mean girls start young.  Enforce the rules regardless of intent and they will learn early the right way to play.  Maybe keep some of them from being total B's when they are old enough to know better.


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## soccerobserver (Aug 26, 2016)

In addition to physical barbs there are verbal jabs...On the old site someone posted that girls can say clever mean things also...the poster said he heard things like:

"oh they had a sale at Supercuts?"

"you know they make those shorts in extra large too"


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## etc1217 (Aug 26, 2016)

My DD plays U16, some of the things I have seen in games just blow me away...girls tend to pull jerseys, pinch, lock arms, knee the other players and literally pull players down especially towards the end of the game when things get desperate/heated.  My DD is short and stocky and rarely gets pushed around.  A lot of players think because she is short that they can knock her down.  I have literally seen girls try to push my daughter from the back with full extension of their arms and they are the ones who go down while my DD is still standing and dribbling the ball and then cry foul hoping to get a call.  I believe the girls are more physical and play more dirty than the boys because they are sneaky as far as throwing hits and some even know the right angle to hide it from the ref's sight lines.  But I do believe some of the rough play is coached, too...


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## timbuck (Aug 27, 2016)

Our 04/05 team has a few smaller girls.  Apparently last weekend some girl said to one of our smaller girls, "stop pushing, you midget".
I didn't see too much pushing either way.
When the girl told me what was said, it was hard not to laugh.


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## wildcat66 (Aug 27, 2016)

I personally prefer a more physical game of soccer.  It is a contact sport. Of course I also like rugby, MMA and American football.  If you are worried about your dd getting hurt maybe you should put her in a dance class.  I say buck up sissypants.


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## bababooey (Aug 27, 2016)

I don't think there is much you can do as a parent other than discuss this matter with your dd. It sounds like her relative size to the other players makes it less likely that she will get hit.

My dd is small and has always been one of the smaller players on her teams. She has been bounced around a lot over the years. There have been tears shed (hers, not mine) over the years, but I also think she has learned over the years to play with her head on a swivel.

At your dd's age, I think physical play is more taught by the coach versus the player figuring it out on their own. A way to tell for sure is what does the coach do when one of his players causes an obvious foul? Does the coach encourage that behavior, look the other way, teach the player what is wrong with that type of play, etc.?


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## timbuck (Aug 27, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I personally prefer a more physical game of soccer.  It is a contact sport. Of course I also like rugby, MMA and American football.  If you are worried about your dd getting hurt maybe you should put her in a dance class.  I say buck up sissypants.


I'd rather see 9 year olds learn to play with their feet and their brain.  They can get more physical at the age of 14-15.


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## espola (Aug 27, 2016)

Players, all players, children, teens, and adults, should approach each game as if their opponents are friends, and end each game as friends.

Unless, or course, they remember the dirty crap those bastards pulled the last time they played.


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## wildcat66 (Aug 27, 2016)

Too much lately I see parents confuse physical aggression with cheating or "dirty" play.  Especially when it is their kid that is knocked down or hurt.  I don't support cheap shots but physical contact is a fact of life in soccer.  I am tired of the "wimping"of our kids.  How did I somehow survive no helmet on my bike, blacktop and gravel on the playground, and playing tackle football in park with my friends without helmets?  To the using their head idea, how about the fact that the fact the striker got slammed off the ball on his or her first attempt at a break away makes them hesitate to do it again and that reluctance gives you a tactical advantage.   That's smart soccer.


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## mahrez (Aug 27, 2016)

Not sure "dirty"  is the best way to describe most players who get physical.

We played a top flight team one age older and soundling bet them.  Plenty of fouls, 7 yellows, kids almost playing in desperate during a "friendly" boys game.  Frustrating sets in then challenges come flying in, players that can't keep up skill wise and/or are just too lazy end up "hacking" but that's the way some games go.   The boys are more physical more often vs the girls at some point around  U13+ IMO.


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## Sped (Aug 27, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> Too much lately I see parents confuse physical aggression with cheating or "dirty" play.  Especially when it is their kid that is knocked down or hurt.  I don't support cheap shots but physical contact is a fact of life in soccer.  I am tired of the "wimping"of our kids.  How did I somehow survive no helmet on my bike, blacktop and gravel on the playground, and playing tackle football in park with my friends without helmets?  To the using their head idea, how about the fact that the fact the striker got slammed off the ball on his or her first attempt at a break away makes them hesitate to do it again and that reluctance gives you a tactical advantage.   That's smart soccer.


True.  Fouls are part of the game and can often be strategically sound.  Unless/until players play with an actual intent to do harm, it's all parents crying over nothing.


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## timbuck (Aug 27, 2016)

Yes. But if your coach is spending time teaching 9 year old players when is the right time for a strategic foul instead of working on technical aspects, then they're doing it wrong.


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## Sped (Aug 27, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Yes. But if your coach is spending time teaching 9 year old players when is the right time for a strategic foul instead of working on technical aspects, then they're doing it wrong.


I have a hard time believing coaches are spending significant time on strategic fouls at U9.  Do you have examples of such?


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## jrcaesar (Aug 27, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> how about the fact that the fact the striker got slammed off the ball on his or her first attempt at a break away makes them hesitate to do it again and that reluctance gives you a tactical advantage. That's smart soccer.


Which is a tactical foul, and possibly a caution (definitely cautionable at U14; few will card at U9), if happened as you describe it. "Slammed" is at least careless, probably reckless and maybe with excessive force. And again, this is the point of the thread. So you are agreeing by this statement is ok at this age?


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## Sped (Aug 27, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Which is a tactical foul, and possibly a caution (definitely cautionable at U14; few will card at U9), if happened as you describe it. "Slammed" is at least careless, probably reckless and maybe with excessive force. And again, this is the point of the thread. So you are agreeing by this statement is ok at this age?


yes.


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## timbuck (Aug 27, 2016)

How would you suggest this be taught to a 9 year old?
Coach: "Suzie, if the fast girl gets the ball in open space, you need to smash her into the ground. Just make sure you're not in the penalty area.

Suzie: "But coach, what if I hurt her?"

Coach: "What if she scores?"

Go Team!!!


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## Sped (Aug 28, 2016)

timbuck said:


> How would you suggest this be taught to a 9 year old?
> Coach: "Suzie, if the fast girl gets the ball in open space, you need to smash her into the ground. Just make sure you're not in the penalty area.
> 
> Suzie: "But coach, what if I hurt her?"
> ...


I'm suggesting it's not being taught.  I'm also suggesting that at U9, there really aren't dirty players, just players who may be a bit rougher than others.


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## wildcat66 (Aug 28, 2016)

I don't think it is a matter of teaching it specifically.  It is a matter of not discouraging it when it is figured out by the player.  The girl that asks "what if I hurt her" is or probably not that aggressive middle back that you will want in that position.  It is as simple as saying, "don't let that girl get past you."  I always believe as long as you are going for the ball, collateral damage is OK, so no need for caution.


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## buzzsaw (Aug 28, 2016)

How about a GU14 team that has three cautions when six of 12 teams have zero cautions? How about one player that has two of the three cautions? What does the mob think?
In five matches.


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## TangoCity (Aug 28, 2016)

I am glad most of you in this thread are not referees.


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## espola (Aug 28, 2016)

buzzsaw said:


> How about a GU14 team that has three cautions when six of 12 teams have zero cautions? How about one player that has two of the three cautions? What does the mob think?
> In five matches.


Since some referees give cautions for untucked jerseys, I would have to know more about the circumstances.


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## zebrafish (Aug 28, 2016)

timbuck said:


> How would you suggest this be taught to a 9 year old?
> Coach: "Suzie, if the fast girl gets the ball in open space, you need to smash her into the ground. Just make sure you're not in the penalty area.
> 
> Suzie: "But coach, what if I hurt her?"
> ...


My theory-- I think it comes from a combination of: parent suggestion, +/- prior treatment by other kids/siblings, +/- coach who doesn't address the overly aggressive player or provide specific enough information about the lines between right/wrong in physical play

I think coaches tend to turn the other way mentally. Perhaps they think it isn't their job to referee how their own kids play during games-- perhaps they think the referee is the one. Perhaps they fear backlash by the kid's parent(s) who are their paying customer. Maybe they just don't care. Clearly, we see people who think that "go for the ball" with "collateral damage" is just fine. Sad, but I think this is true.

Really wish I could post the video clips of this particular player. Two hits from behind with shoulder/elbow to the back (nowhere near ball). Both hits knock dribbling player off their feet and sprawling onto ground. One roundhouse/uppercut to face hitting kid across the jaw with forearm. Last hit, the ref comes and talks to kid briefly. No card. She smiles at him.  Sociopath in the making.


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## outside! (Aug 28, 2016)

As the players get older, the so called "dirty" players usually get humbled when they run up against a team that is bigger, faster, stronger and sometimes better. Soccer is a team sport. A dirty play that is not seen by the ref has a way of coming back on the player in question. Some players grow out of playing dirty due to the fact they can't get away with it anymore. Some of these players just quit when they aren't the toughest player on the field anymore and they get tired of getting all their karma back.


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## wildcat66 (Aug 28, 2016)

Go eat a salad zebrafish, I am going to throw another steak on the grill and crack open another Budweiser.  I say again....buck up sissypants!


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## jrcaesar (Aug 28, 2016)

buzzsaw said:


> How about a GU14 team that has three cautions when six of 12 teams have zero cautions? How about one player that has two of the three cautions? What does the mob think?
> In five matches


There's nothing wrong with earning cautions.* Also depends on who the referee is that day, and whether the game demands cards for game management. Earning or deserving send-offs is another matter entirely.

_* - unless there's a penalty or suspension for accumulating cards. Even then, often a tactical foul is the correct soccer play. Just not at U9._


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## espola (Aug 28, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> There's nothing wrong with earning cautions.* Also depends on who the referee is that day, and whether the game demands cards for game management. Earning or deserving send-offs is another matter entirely.
> 
> _* - unless there's a penalty or suspension for accumulating cards. Even then, often a tactical foul is the correct soccer play. Just not at U9._


In league play, all the way up to NCAA, accumulated yellow cards may eventually lead to a game suspension and possible loss of position in the league standings table.


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## mahrez (Aug 28, 2016)

Accumulation of yellow cards. Should those result in suspension? If so after how many 3,4,6 or ? At what age u13,+?


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## Striker17 (Aug 28, 2016)

I would agree that at 9 some times it's a body control issue. 
I would love to see the tape- privately. I have also seen this at 9-11 and had concerns. My daughter is the opposite she gets pummeled and jumps up like nothing happened which drives me crazy sometimes. 
What has been fun to watch is the evolution of the fouls. We went from linebacker pushing to more subtle jersey pulling backs and other players lifting her off the field when the refs aren't looking. I hear it only gets more interesting as they progress


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## Torros (Aug 28, 2016)

zebrafish said:


> Another thread and a recent game with my GU9 daughter got me thinking about dealing with dirty players. I think the days are gone for my own kid where games are clean and kids generally follow the rules. Nothing like watching a 9 year old girl lay an opponent out with a forearm across a kid's face, then 5 minutes later run up behind a kid and lay a shoulder in the back to blow up a player without coming anywhere near the ball, then 5 minutes later lay a shoulder into a third player and knock them 4 feet sideways-- to make your jaw hit the floor.
> 
> As a coach, what have you done (or seen your coach do) and has it been helpful when you face a player or team that plays outside the boundaries?
> 
> ...


There are no dirty players. Only coaches who allow players to continue to play dirty instead of sitting them and explaining that what they did is wrong. The same goes for Refs. There are some horrible, lazy refs who don't want to take the time to fill out the required paperwork on a RC so instead they just let them play on.


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## buzzsaw (Aug 28, 2016)

Espola you are redicolous! We are not talking about untucked jerseys. We are talking about arms up plays from behind and grabbing that goes un-called. We are talking forearms and elbows to the face. If one player has two cautions in five matches there's an issue. Or do we just wait till something really bad happens?


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## meatsweats (Aug 28, 2016)

I don't believe any U9 coach is teaching true "fouling" behavior. I DO believe that referees treat the girls game different. If a boy comes in late or takes a player down with no ball contact, it's automatic. Bam! Foul, and probably a yellow. Girls, they are late all the time. And nothing. 

My DD has had two "major" injuries. Both related to late hits where she beat the girl on the ball. Both incidence were fouls to the back. retaliation or trying to stop the play? No matter, both were fouls called. Neither were yellows, let alone red. Never did DD embellish. Both times she should have!!!! JS. Girls don't do a good job "getting fouled". They act too tough for their own good. It is an art, after all.  Embellishment on the pitch. Hate to say it, but true.


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## Porkchop (Aug 29, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> My DD plays U16, some of the things I have seen in games just blow me away...girls tend to pull jerseys, pinch, lock arms, knee the other players and literally pull players down especially towards the end of the game when things get desperate/heated.  My DD is short and stocky and rarely gets pushed around.  A lot of players think because she is short that they can knock her down.  I have literally seen girls try to push my daughter from the back with full extension of their arms and they are the ones who go down while my DD is still standing and dribbling the ball and then cry foul hoping to get a call.  I believe the girls are more physical and play more dirty than the boys because they are sneaky as far as throwing hits and some even know the right angle to hide it from the ref's sight lines.  But I do believe some of the rough play is coached, too...


I do agree that some of the rough play is coached, just this pass weekend a Ref spoke to a coach about him yelling defend yourself, when the other team was winning and playing clean.


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## LASTMAN14 (Aug 29, 2016)

zebrafish said:


> Another thread and a recent game with my GU9 daughter got me thinking about dealing with dirty players. I think the days are gone for my own kid where games are clean and kids generally follow the rules. Nothing like watching a 9 year old girl lay an opponent out with a forearm across a kid's face, then 5 minutes later run up behind a kid and lay a shoulder in the back to blow up a player without coming anywhere near the ball, then 5 minutes later lay a shoulder into a third player and knock them 4 feet sideways-- to make your jaw hit the floor.
> 
> As a coach, what have you done (or seen your coach do) and has it been helpful when you face a player or team that plays outside the boundaries?
> 
> ...


Cant's say if overtly physical play (dirty play) is coached or not, however I do think it is encouraged. This last Sunday a particular player on the other team clearly fouled several (5) of the players on my daughters team from behind and none of them were called by the ref. This young ladies father called out to her and then gave her a thumbs for one of her fouls. The ref then turned to this parent and called him by his first name. He (Ref) then went on to ask if he taught his daughter how to foul like this...


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## socalkdg (Aug 29, 2016)

2005 girl, played a team this weekend that on average was about 25lbs bigger than our team per girl.   We were quicker faster and technically superior and won easily 4-1.   Thankfully they weren't a dirty team and none of our girls got hurt.  Our girls in normal bumping would more often hit the ground then theirs, but they weren't doing anything illegal.   One time one of our girls tried to step in front of one of theirs, missed the ball, ran right into her,  and hit the ground hard like running into a brick wall, the other girl just kept running.  Hilarious.  Thankfully she wasn't hurt.

Isn't slamming into a girl from behind on a breakaway automatically a yellow/red card and a penalty kick?  Isn't that denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity?


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## Sped (Aug 29, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> 2005 girl, played a team this weekend that on average was about 25lbs bigger than our team per girl.   We were quicker faster and technically superior and won easily 4-1.   Thankfully they weren't a dirty team and none of our girls got hurt.  Our girls in normal bumping would more often hit the ground then theirs, but they weren't doing anything illegal.   One time one of our girls tried to step in front of one of theirs, missed the ball, ran right into her,  and hit the ground hard like running into a brick wall, the other girl just kept running.  Hilarious.  Thankfully she wasn't hurt.
> 
> Isn't slamming into a girl from behind on a breakaway automatically a yellow/red card and a penalty kick?  Isn't that denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity?


They answer is yes, it should be, but it's not always called that way.

It's funny when smaller girls go up against bigger kids and get bumped on the backside - on the positive, I've noticed that the refs tend to call the foul on the bigger kids whether or not they were at fault.


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## timbuck (Aug 29, 2016)

Good thread. And eye opening to watch our team this weekend.  I don't think we are dirty. But we did have quite a few fouls called for a push in the back. Mostly called against our smallest player. If she was bigger, they might deserve cautions.  They were almost shoulder to shoulder, but just a bit off.  And a few calls for getting the elbows up a bit too high when in close contact. 
There weren't any fouls for hard charges.  There were a few tripping calls against the other team. 
Nothing "dirty" from either side. It looked like youth players trying to adapt to playing with a bit more contact.


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## etc1217 (Aug 29, 2016)

I don't mind the rough play after all it is a contact sport...shoulder to shoulder or *clean* plays where a player gets knock on their a$$..is all fair game but what I have a problem with are the plays where it is intentional like the grabbing or pulling or the locking of the arms to pull players off the ball...I have seen girls literally swing a player in a full circle because they locked arm while the one other is trying to get free...some refs call it, some don't...but at the end of the day, it's a 50/50 chance on any call, just hope you get a good set of refs that call a good clean game and make the calls on the dirty plays.  At GU16, if the girls have been playing club for awhile whether or not the "dirty" plays are coached or not and if the refs call it or not, it's up to the player as to how they read the game and play accordingly with their skills and physical strength to win the ball.


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## mommato2girls (Aug 29, 2016)

I saw some pretty ugly soccer this weekend. My dd was fouled with a blatant push off the ball. The ref called it and awarded her a kick but the player on the other side was nasty about it. She smirked at her as she walked away and then high fived a few teammates. Later in the game my dd and same girl were both running for a ball and collided, her inside arm came down on other player and she went down and went out injured. Pure karma. The parents were all howling to card her but disnt say a peep when the same player pushed her earlier. Complete accident and my kid apologized to her and ref for the collision. Her team lost and she was fine with it, she played great and clean.


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## tugs (Aug 29, 2016)

My DD (left back), was laid out by a forward who was just frustrated by being repeatedly beat to the ball and shut down all game.  So said forward decided to body check her into the sidelines well after the play was over and being beat again.  Took her out of the game (and remainder of Far West Regional tournament) sending her to the ED for concussion/whiplash.  Sure she got a foul called on her but really?  Tempted to send the medical bill (CT scan, ED visit, etc) to the forward's club and parents for compensation.  Should be the rule for such outcomes.    Think 95% of time it's parent's and coaches' responsibility and 5% refs who need to get those type of players in check before damage gets done.  If a player loves to play dirty let them pursue hockey or roller derby.


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## jrcaesar (Aug 29, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Isn't slamming into a girl from behind on a breakaway automatically a yellow/red card and a penalty kick? Isn't that denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity?


Denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity also involves distance from goal. Could just be a tactical foul (yellow) if it occurs at the halfline, but _slamming _could be with excessive force (red card). Only a penalty kick if in the box.

http://www.socceramerica.com/article/62017/red-card-how-to-call-dogso.html


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## Mystery Train (Aug 29, 2016)

Interesting discussion.  Been watching various age groups for 6-7 years, and here's my take:
1. Truly dirty players are rare.  It is a physical game and most girls playing club soccer are more aggressive than average, so you get lots of collisions that over-protective parents wail about, but don't amount to intentional dirty play.  Had one kid on our team who really loved the physical part of the game.  She was little, too.  But she ran full speed into 50/50 balls and loved it when she knocked opponents down.  Sweet kid off the field though.  But she got lots of yellow cards and a PK once that cost us a game.  Our coach over time taught her how to channel her aggression, but it was a process.  I wouldn't say she was dirty, but plenty of opposing parents probably thought she was.
2. It is a frustrating game sometimes, and I've seen plenty of decent kids lose their tempers, get frustrated, or seek "revenge" for something said or done in the heat of battle.  This results in obvious fouls and some extra forceful body checking that, while within the rules, seems unnecessary.  Doesn't make it "dirty," but out of control, yes.
3. Eliminating dirty play is for the refs to handle.  Just like you see in professional sports, a really good ref will see what is happening within the game and notice when a player is getting too edgy or if a couple of players are going at it a little too emotionally.  They pull them aside and talk to them.  They will pull the captains and talk to them.  They will talk to the coaches.  They will give out cards and ejections if they think it is getting out of hand.  That is how it gets stopped.  A ref stopped one of my kid's games once to lecture both teams about getting too feisty, and afterwards they all shook hands and smiled and it ended up being a great, clean game.  Coaches aren't neutral arbiters of the game.  They are in the heat of the battle, too, so it isn't realistic to leave it up to them to pull an over-aggressive player when that player might win them the 50/50 ball that turns the game.  That's why the refs are there.  If you get a weak or inexperienced ref, that's generally when "dirty" play evolves.  
4. As for how to handle it as a parent, I just tell my kid that the ultimate revenge is to win the game so don't let the fouling or physical play distract her from focusing on her job and responsibilities on the field or her technique.  That doesn't always work, but you do the best you can.  I give her examples from professional sports or athletes who are able to block out the nonsense and focus on their jobs vs those who get caught up in the extraneous stuff and lose focus (see Phelps vs. Le Clos in Rio).


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## jrcaesar (Aug 29, 2016)

Most of the dirty play could be cleaned up if referees correctly punished and carded players for cautionable tactics in youth games. However, referees are reminded by administrators not to issue too many cards or teams won't return to said tournament (fewer games to referee!)_, _so they try to manage the game without cards. (There's also the paperwork, which takes time, etc.) When it takes more than just a reckless play to earn a caution or takes several delays of game before a referee finally acts, the game deteriorates to what we often see. And then when this week's referee correctly enforces laws that last week's ref let go, you get sideline issues because Jenny is getting calls against her for last weeks' "good, physical play."


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## espola (Aug 29, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Most of the dirty play could be cleaned up if referees correctly punished and carded players for cautionable tactics in youth games. However, referees are reminded by administrators not to issue too many cards or teams won't return to said tournament (fewer games to referee!)_, _so they try to manage the game without cards. (There's also the paperwork, which takes time, etc.) When it takes more than just a reckless play to earn a caution or takes several delays of game before a referee finally acts, the game deteriorates to what we often see. And then when this week's referee correctly enforces laws that last week's ref let go, you get sideline issues because Jenny is getting calls against her for last weeks' "good, physical play."


What about the teams that don't come back because the refereeing was so crappy there last year - "They never called anything!"


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## timbuck (Aug 29, 2016)

We've never once picked or not picked a tournament because of the referees.


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## TangoCity (Aug 29, 2016)

timbuck said:


> We've never once picked or not picked a tournament because of the referees.


Same here.
Priorities lie somewhere with... quality of fields, quality of competition, price (fees + travel + lodging) and weather.


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## mirage (Aug 29, 2016)

Speaking of refs, for the last two weekends, my older kid's team played 4 CRL games.  The officiating in all but one were poor.  The first game, about (no joke) 12 yellow cards and 2 red cards.  The game was not controlled in the 1st half and got very chippy in the 2nd.

Second game, only few yellows but the refs just let the game go out of control and even ignored offside AR flag that resulted in a goal.  CR let the game go beyond just physical.  Once one of the CRL official was standing along the sideline and CR noticed, the calls started to get made. 

The worse part was at the end of the game, CR engaged in a conversation with one of the families on the team that just scored the last second goal to win with laughter, smiles and very friendly gestures.  Not saying that there was a bias but the appearance is not great for the CR.  If CR was a friend of the team, perhaps should have excluded self from the game to avoid conflict of interest.

Third game was just poor AR officiating, where many, many calls were made in error (e.g., offside call when the player did not make an attempt to go after the ball, or struggling to make which team forced the ball out)

The last game was quite good.  CR let the teams play and controlled the intensity.  There was a moment, where a fight almost broke out (2~3 players from each side pushing and shoving with neck veins sticking waaaay out) and they (CR and ARs) immediately stepped in and calmed the players down. 

These are boys 98s/99s playing in 97/98 age group so they go at it at full speed and contact.

Are there any dirty players? Maybe but very few that I've seen over the years.  There are plenty of jerks and not very likable players but it doesn't make them dirty.  I think, especially at younger ages, parents are simply not used to physicalness of the sport and how aggressive it can get (the players want to win).  I remember the very first time I saw GU16 Premier game at the Oaks Polo field (old name), when my older kid was playing U10 at the same venue.  I told my wife jokingly, then, that I didn't want to run into any of them in a dark alley for fear for my life....  Now I see the games at older ages and think nothing of it.  Its just the nature of the game and have gotten used to it.....


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## Thunderbolt (Aug 29, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Most of the dirty play could be cleaned up if referees correctly punished and carded players for cautionable tactics in youth games. However, referees are reminded by administrators not to issue too many cards or teams won't return to said tournament (fewer games to referee!)_, _so they try to manage the game without cards. (There's also the paperwork, which takes time, etc.) When it takes more than just a reckless play to earn a caution or takes several delays of game before a referee finally acts, the game deteriorates to what we often see. And then when this week's referee correctly enforces laws that last week's ref let go, you get sideline issues because Jenny is getting calls against her for last weeks' "good, physical play."


Where have you heard that? I'd be shocked if a tournament admin directed referees to go easy on the cards because they are concerned about next year's revenue. And I'd be even more shocked if a referee actually listened and it affected the way they call the game.


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## jrcaesar (Aug 29, 2016)

Thunderbolt said:


> Where have you heard that? I'd be shocked if a tournament admin directed referees to go easy on the cards because they are concerned about next year's revenue. And I'd be even more shocked if a referee actually listened and it affected the way they call the game.


Check the newsletters on the LBSRA website (corrected: http://www.lbsra.com/)


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## TangoCity (Aug 29, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Check the newsletters on the LBSRA website (corrected: http://www.lbsra.com/)


First newsletter I read:  Said...

"A reminder to all referees to control the games from the very beginning, talk to the players when they are doing something stupid, next me 
yellow card and finally ejection.  Always call the first fault by doing this you will eliminate THE RETALIATION FAULT.
All the center referees should give some kind of pre-game instructions to their AR’s.  You will be surprised to see how the game will progress more
smoothly without any confrontations from the benches and also from the parents."

Excellent advice.  Wish all refs at the club level would follow it.  Many do not.  The good ones do.


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## Surfref (Aug 29, 2016)

zebrafish said:


> Another thread and a recent game with my GU9 daughter got me thinking about dealing with dirty players. I think the days are gone for my own kid where games are clean and kids generally follow the rules. Nothing like watching a 9 year old girl lay an opponent out with a forearm across a kid's face, then 5 minutes later run up behind a kid and lay a shoulder in the back to blow up a player without coming anywhere near the ball, then 5 minutes later lay a shoulder into a third player and knock them 4 feet sideways-- to make your jaw hit the floor.
> 
> As a coach, what have you done (or seen your coach do) and has it been helpful when you face a player or team that plays outside the boundaries?
> 
> ...


It isn't the play that is dirty at U13 and below, it is what the coach has taught them and the parents have encouraged.  So, it is that club or teams system that is dirty.  Wait until your kids get older and you will see some true dirty play, but that dirty play can also be considered tactically sound.

At high school age and college, I believe there are dirty players.  Every team at the older ages has a couple enforcers that know when to foul and who to foul.  DD had a college game this past Friday (I watch the live stream) and DD scored in the 4th minute and was just causing havoc with the other teams defense.  About 20 minutes in after DD team scored their second goal the other team moved one of the mids back to have a 5-4-1 and that mid targeted my DD with 4 fouls in a 5 minute period with the last foul getting the girl a Yellow.  Dirty play or smart tactics?  When my DD and I talked last night she thought it was a smart move tactically.  DD did point out that she took the girl down with a hard foul near midfield during an attack later in the game, but helped her up.  DD said the other girl was just doing her job and DD said she fouled her hard to stop what could have been an attack and gave DD team a chance to get back into formation.  

Stoked that I get to see DD play this Friday before driving back to referee Blues Cup.  Just bummed I will miss her Saturday game.


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## espola (Aug 29, 2016)

Surfref said:


> It isn't the play that is dirty at U13 and below, it is what the coach has taught them and the parents have encouraged.  So, it is that club or teams system that is dirty.  Wait until your kids get older and you will see some true dirty play, but that dirty play can also be considered tactically sound.
> 
> At high school age and college, I believe there are dirty players.  Every team at the older ages has a couple enforcers that know when to foul and who to foul.  DD had a college game this past Friday (I watch the live stream) and DD scored in the 4th minute and was just causing havoc with the other teams defense.  About 20 minutes in after DD team scored their second goal the other team moved one of the mids back to have a 5-4-1 and that mid targeted my DD with 4 fouls in a 5 minute period with the last foul getting the girl a Yellow.  Dirty play or smart tactics?  When my DD and I talked last night she thought it was a smart move tactically.  DD did point out that she took the girl down with a hard foul near midfield during an attack later in the game, but helped her up.  DD said the other girl was just doing her job and DD said she fouled her hard to stop what could have been an attack and gave DD team a chance to get back into formation.
> 
> Stoked that I get to see DD play this Friday before driving back to referee Blues Cup.  Just bummed I will miss her Saturday game.


So how did your DD's game turn out?  The final score?


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## meatsweats (Aug 29, 2016)

Surfref said:


> It isn't the play that is dirty at U13 and below, it is what the coach has taught them and the parents have encouraged.  So, it is that club or teams system that is dirty.  Wait until your kids get older and you will see some true dirty play, but that dirty play can also be considered tactically sound.
> 
> At high school age and college, I believe there are dirty players.  Every team at the older ages has a couple enforcers that know when to foul and who to foul.  DD had a college game this past Friday (I watch the live stream) and DD scored in the 4th minute and was just causing havoc with the other teams defense.  About 20 minutes in after DD team scored their second goal the other team moved one of the mids back to have a 5-4-1 and that mid targeted my DD with 4 fouls in a 5 minute period with the last foul getting the girl a Yellow.  Dirty play or smart tactics?  When my DD and I talked last night she thought it was a smart move tactically.  DD did point out that she took the girl down with a hard foul near midfield during an attack later in the game, but helped her up.  DD said the other girl was just doing her job and DD said she fouled her hard to stop what could have been an attack and gave DD team a chance to get back into formation.
> 
> Stoked that I get to see DD play this Friday before driving back to referee Blues Cup.  Just bummed I will miss her Saturday game.


Why did I think your DD left college soccer. Am I wrong? Did she just move colleges? Not being rude, just clarifying and probably a bit out of the loop. Hoping the best for her and glad to continue following up. Where is she at these days?


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## Surfref (Aug 31, 2016)

espola said:


> So how did your DD's game turn out?  The final score?


They won 3-1.  Other team scored in the last minute


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## Surfref (Aug 31, 2016)

meatsweats said:


> Why did I think your DD left college soccer. Am I wrong? Did she just move colleges? Not being rude, just clarifying and probably a bit out of the loop. Hoping the best for her and glad to continue following up. Where is she at these days?


Moved colleges, long story made short.  The coach that recruited her moved on before DD reported her Freshman year and replacement coach was an a-hole.  She was also going for Kinesiology which the college was going to start offering as an undergrad degree in 2017/2018 school year, but they pushed it back to 2019/2020 school year.  DD thought the degree was more important than playing soccer.


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## espola (Aug 31, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Moved colleges, long story made short.  The coach that recruited her moved on before DD reported her Freshman year and replacement coach was an a-hole.  She was also going for Kinesiology which the college was going to start offering as an undergrad degree in 2017/2018 school year, but they pushed it back to 2019/2020 school year.  DD thought the degree was more important than playing soccer.


And I spent half a day looking through every soccer roster in South Carolina.  It must be a good school if they have a kinesiology major and stream their women's games.


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## baldref (Aug 31, 2016)

espola said:


> And I spent half a day looking through every soccer roster in South Carolina.  It must be a good school if they have a kinesiology major and stream their women's games.


you really need a hobby.


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## meatsweats (Aug 31, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Moved colleges, long story made short.  The coach that recruited her moved on before DD reported her Freshman year and replacement coach was an a-hole.  She was also going for Kinesiology which the college was going to start offering as an undergrad degree in 2017/2018 school year, but they pushed it back to 2019/2020 school year.  DD thought the degree was more important than playing soccer.


That's great to hear she's found a solid home. And also reaffirms my fears for my DD and all the early commitments that take place these days. When coaches leave, which seems fairly common, the incoming recruits can end up getting the sh(# end of the stick. Sigh. Most times it seems to work itself out, but what a pain in the butt. 

Quick question, how is your daughter handling the lab work with her degree of choice and collegiate soccer? It's been something that we've been told to think about as my DD will have to take a lot of labs if she sticks with her preferred choice of programs.


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## espola (Aug 31, 2016)

baldref said:


> you really need a hobby.


Why?  I've got this.


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## Surfref (Sep 1, 2016)

baldref said:


> you really need a hobby.


Evidently he did not look at all the University of South Carolina campuses.  I posted the exact name of the university on this forum a couple years ago.  His "streaming" comment made absolutely no sense since I know JC's that stream their games.  JaP is not here so he is just looking for someone to argue with.  Not going down that road.


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## espola (Sep 1, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Evidently he did not look at all the University of South Carolina campuses.  I posted the exact name of the university on this forum a couple years ago.  His "streaming" comment made absolutely no sense since I know JC's that stream their games.  JaP is not here so he is just looking for someone to argue with.  Not going down that road.


Didn't you just say she moved colleges?

I don't have access to anything from the old forum, so I'm flying half blind.


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## softwaretest (Sep 1, 2016)

Laced said:


> I'm not sure you can call a 9 year old player "dirty." At that age, some kids don't have full control of their bodies. They by instinct put forth their arms more as way to protect themselves while hurting other kids unintentionally. I'd be much more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt than a 14 year old who does the same.


What about the Hawaii team we played who every time the ref looked to the sidelines to accept the substitution the girls behind him started throwing elbows while the sub jogged on?


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## outside! (Sep 2, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> What about the Hawaii team we played who every time the ref looked to the sidelines to accept the substitution the girls behind him started throwing elbows while the sub jogged on?


Every team from Hawaii I have ever seen plays a "physical" game of soccer.


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## Unknown (Sep 6, 2016)

I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


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## Striker17 (Sep 6, 2016)

Unknown said:


> I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


This  weekend and CRL is turning into a slug fest. Completely agree with this statement and the less we teach skill the more these desparate "physical" takedowns seem to be occurring. 
I agree we had several different games this weekend. First ref didn't control anything until second half when he started handing out red cards. Last two the ref from the first two minutes made his feelings known about from behind tackles, etc.


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## espola (Sep 6, 2016)

Unknown said:


> I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


"Let them play" often turns into "let them play rugby".


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## etc1217 (Sep 7, 2016)

Unknown said:


> I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


I do believe that some refs are just lazy and don't care if the game gets out of hand.  My DD played a tournament this weekend against a team who was "ranked alot higher" than her team.  So this team came on the field thinking her team would be an easy win but my DD's team dominated the game with more shots on goals and played a better passing game than the other team who then reverted to a kickball game because they couldn't keep up with my DD's team but unfortunately we lost due to a miscommunication on defense and the other team scored.  But the desperation from the other team as they were being dominated by the "lower ranked" team, they were pulling our girls down and not using technique/skills and just getting real physical where one of the girls took a swing at our defender who was pushed to the ground trying to shield the ball.  There was no call... I get soccer is physical and shoulder-to-shoulder hits or clean hits and being aggressive are all acceptable as long as you play the ball but come on, when does a literal swing at a player not called.


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## genesis (Sep 7, 2016)

One person's dirty player is another's enforcer.  Always been that way always will be. Yours truly Marty McSorley.


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## socalkdg (Sep 7, 2016)

genesis said:


> One person's dirty player is another's enforcer.  Always been that way always will be. Yours truly Marty McSorley.


The Hanson brothers say hello.


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## baldref (Sep 7, 2016)

Unknown said:


> I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


the lazy refs at surf cup broke three girls legs? that's just not right. they need to try harder. maybe they can break more girls legs if they weren't so lazy. 

as always, the referee caused your team to lose, your players to get hurt, allowed the opposing team to play dirty, and caused a hole in the ozone. 
the mindset of the typical ref hating, soccer parent is beyond me..... 
there are referees who are doing centers above their heads. there are referees who are "not good". there are referees who make mistakes and don't see everything. but the percentage of these examples is very small. there are parents who don't have a clue what they are watching when they watch their kids play. the percentage of that is very high.


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## Mystery Train (Sep 7, 2016)

baldref said:


> there are referees who make mistakes and don't see everything. but the percentage of these examples is very small. there are parents who don't have a clue what they are watching when they watch their kids play. the percentage of that is very high.


I'm not a ref, nor do I particularly like many of the ones I see reffing my kids' games, but they're out there and I'm not.  I know my limits, and that quote is spot on.


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## etc1217 (Sep 7, 2016)

As I mentioned in my post, "some" refs, I didn't mention all. There are good center refs out there, no doubt. It's a hard job to catch everything that's going on on the field that's why there are AR's but no one is perfect.  But also, it is the refs' responsibility to control the game so it doesn't get out of hand.  Yes, there are dirty players and there are bad calls and teams lose, that's all part of the game.  But after watching a game get out of control where players are breaking legs or swinging at other players, the refs needs to start controlling that by either giving yellow/red cards and throwing out the player for being out-of-contol, especially if it is the same player causing it.  But I rarely see any cards being pulled.  I've been watching youth soccer being played for over 13 years and have only seen maybe a handful of yellows being given out.

But it's all part of the game, just like football, baseball or basketball no one every agrees with the ref unless it is for your team.


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## genesis (Sep 7, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> Yes, there are dirty players and there are bad calls and teams lose, that's all part of the game. But after watching a game get out of control where players are breaking legs or swinging at other players, (they are Donald Trump supporters).


While the refs are voting for Hillary.


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## SOCCERMINION (Sep 7, 2016)

Blamming the Ref for Dirty play and injuries on the field is like blaming Prison Guards for Prison Violence. A great Ref is one you never know is there. A team that is coached well and has players that "PLAY" the game of soccer, need little to no interaction from the Ref. Parents on the sidelines that act accordingly also should never need to be engaged by the Refs. The players know who kicked the ball out, the players know when they are offsides, the players know when its a foul. Its the parents that seem to have the issues with the calls.....


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## Laced (Sep 7, 2016)

baldref said:


> there are referees who are doing centers above their heads. there are referees who are "not good". there are referees who make mistakes and don't see everything. but the percentage of these examples is very small. there are parents who don't have a clue what they are watching when they watch their kids play. the percentage of that is *very high*.


I think the percentage is low on both sides. It's precisely the perception that the percentage is higher on the other side that creates animosity.


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## meatsweats (Sep 7, 2016)

Laced - It's about embellishment. Girls are tougher than boys. They don't complain, cry, or fall around faking. Standard refs are looking to make an extra buck over the weekend, some have experience, some don't. They do their best. I am very appreciative of them in general. But really, girls aren't allowed to embellish, celebrate, etc. It's that double standard. 

Girls are tough on the field. They don't go down. They don't complain. They don't talk back. They never (or rarely) question a call. Why? Ingrained. Because they are reprimanded. Because we have different expectations from our men and women behavior. How can we expect the refs to be different if we don't teach them a different protocol. I'm sure gender based situations never arise in their classes. Please tell me I'm wrong.


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## genesis (Sep 8, 2016)

Laced said:


> I think the percentage is low on both sides. It's precisely the perception that the percentage is higher on the other side that creates animosity.


Haha you should run for president.


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## baldref (Sep 8, 2016)

Laced said:


> I think the percentage is low on both sides. It's precisely the perception that the percentage is higher on the other side that creates animosity.


we definitely disagree on that. and being i've seen hundreds of more games than you, and ran up and down sidelines listening to ridiculous comments for many, many years, i believe i have a better insight on the reality than you. 

and you would think that i'm speaking of lower level younger games. but, some of the most clueless and misinformed parents i have ever run across, were ecnl champions league games, surf cup olders games, etc.....
it boggles my mind that these parents have kids that play at the highest levels, and they really have no idea what it is they're watching.


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## timbuck (Sep 8, 2016)

I think part of the problem with refs at tournaments is they are working various levels/age groups over a weekend. 
A u15 flight 1 boys game should be called a bit different than a u10 girls flight 3 game.  
What's barely a foul in u15 boys might send a 9 year old girl flying. 
Say what you will about AYSO refs, but the ones who work u12 and above games usually call a pretty good game.  Probably a little tighter than other refs.  Might slow the game a bit, but it's a safer game b
(Example at San Clemente Surf Cup 04.  AYSO refs worked a game and the sidelines were all saying how good of a job the ref did. Now, these refs also work the club circuit, but they mostly cover AYSO games during the season).


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## socalkdg (Sep 8, 2016)

I just wish the AR's were aligned better with the last defender for calling offside.  It can be such a game changer as it can be the difference between a break away goal or not.   That plus the girl that is in a offside position getting called for offside when she isn't even near the play.   

That goes all the way up to the Olympics and Professional Leagues, which have the advantage of being able to review if the call was right or wrong(for the TV audience, not for changing the call). Seeing them make mistakes does help you understand why it happens at lower levels.   It is such a difficult call and I understand that, but can also be very pivotable in a game.  Probably no way to ever get around it.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 8, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> I just wish the AR's were aligned better with the last defender for calling offside. It can be such a game changer as it can be the difference between a break away goal or not.


Yep. For the $20+ they get paid in cash to watch the games along the touchlines, the ARs could at least do the bare minimum requirements of their jobs - stay with the 2nd-to-last defender, follow the ball to the goal line to confirm a goal/no-goal. And actually calling fouls right in front of them would be good, too.


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## outside! (Sep 8, 2016)

One of the first things I used to teach kids when I coached rec was that you can't outrun a pass. Nobody can outrun a hard shot from the edge of the box to the goal line, so it will be difficult and sometimes impossible for the AR to be all the way to the goal line when a shot arrives at the mouth of the goal, especially on a breakaway. Having said that, this past year DD's team had two goals called for balls that were in the goal, but were cleared out of the air by the keeper reaching back into the goal before they hit the net. Most refs are pretty good. Some are excellent. A small percentage of experienced refs are not very good but still get assignments due to the shortage of refs. Just another reason for parents to keep their mouths shut.


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## espola (Sep 8, 2016)

outside! said:


> One of the first things I used to teach kids when I coached rec was that you can't outrun a pass. Nobody can outrun a hard shot from the edge of the box to the goal line, so it will be difficult and sometimes impossible for the AR to be all the way to the goal line when a shot arrives at the mouth of the goal, especially on a breakaway. Having said that, this past year DD's team had two goals called for balls that were in the goal, but were cleared out of the air by the keeper reaching back into the goal before they hit the net. Most refs are pretty good. Some are excellent. A small percentage of experienced refs are not very good but still get assignments due to the shortage of refs. Just another reason for parents to keep their mouths shut.


Did you teach your rec goalkeepers that same trick?  I mean skill?


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## baldref (Sep 8, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Yep. For the $20+ they get paid in cash to watch the games along the touchlines, the ARs could at least do the bare minimum requirements of their jobs - stay with the 2nd-to-last defender, follow the ball to the goal line to confirm a goal/no-goal. And actually calling fouls right in front of them would be good, too.


as i pointed out before, very often parents like yourself, are misinformed or just plain don't know what they're talking about. as for $20 paid in cash..... some games are cash, some aren't. an AR does not make $20 per hour, especially when factoring in things like being at the field early, time between games, etc. etc. the referee team makes $1.50 per minute of game time, with the lion's share of that going to the center. 
i'm not sure you know what you mean when you point out the "bare minimum" required by an AR. as for calling a foul directly in front of them.... is it a foul? or is it what the biased parent thinks is a foul against their team? is there an advantage that possibly is developing? if it is a foul, would stopping play make the game better? is the center referee looking right at it, and therefore even if the AR might have called a foul, he is allowing the center, who is ultimately in charge of the game, to make that decision? 
my point being, you just might not know quite as much as you think when you try to critique someone's job, that you aren't trained for. 
my advice: go watch your son or daughter play and enjoy the game. it isn't life or death no matter what level they play at. if you disagree with a call, get over it, and get back to enjoying the game. you aren't going to change the call no matter what you say or do. in the end, it's about kids playing soccer, not about parents obsessing over whether the referee's assistant is running hard enough to make them happy.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 8, 2016)

baldref said:


> my point being, you just might not know quite as much as you think when you try to critique someone's job, that you aren't trained for.


I'm trained for it. And my daughter is working her way up (via AYSO badges and games) to run USSF games in a couple years.

The point: There are people struggling at $8/hour jobs at Wal-Mart who aren't paid as well as most ARs. Just asking them to respect the game as others do.


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## baldref (Sep 8, 2016)

respect the game as you respect them? got it.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 8, 2016)

As a veteran bald referee, I'm sure you know exactly the type of ARs I'm describing. They are out there. But I understand why you are making your points.
_
Adding: Nobody wrote about or suggesting disrespecting the referees while on the field. That's why there are discussion boards, to gripe among friends. _


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## ALT_Dad (Sep 8, 2016)

Observed a game this weekend where a girl (in a younger age group)  took every opportunity to punch, elbow, kick, pull jersey, pull hair and even bite the opposition (sadly only have video of the jersey pull into a bite).  She was skilled at waiting the split second after the ref turned around to start most of her assaults.  She earned a yellow card after one of five penalties were observed.  After the linesman saw her kicking a girl from behind as the ref walked away she was told not to return to the field. Inexplicably, she was not shown the second yellow allowing her team to play on with a full compliment.  In all, she had at least eleven such penalties in this game alone.  From what I understand, the refs were warned about this player before the game.  After the game her mom was overheard saying, "those girls were afraid of you and wanted you off the field. You just keep playing your game!" The thug girl's coach was heard by both benches cursing the other teams coach for bringing up the unnecessarily rough play.  Yes refs have some culpability in allowing thuggish play to continue and not truly punishing it.  However, isn't it more the coach and parents responsibility and in this case fault for fostering such play?


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## genesis (Sep 8, 2016)

espola said:


> One of the first things I used to teach kids when I coached rec was that you can't outrun a pass.


Haha a white shadow (google) reference.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 8, 2016)

The crazy parents, unscrupulous coaches/clubs and obviously thin skinned holier than thou refs who cannot take constructive criticism without getting all defensive is why I am glad my daughter is almost done with club soccer.


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## espola (Sep 8, 2016)

genesis said:


> Haha a white shadow (google) reference.


I agree with the statement, but I didn't post it.


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## Bananacorner (Sep 8, 2016)

timbuck said:


> How would you suggest this be taught to a 9 year old?
> Coach: "Suzie, if the fast girl gets the ball in open space, you need to smash her into the ground. Just make sure you're not in the penalty area.
> 
> Suzie: "But coach, what if I hurt her?"
> ...


Not naming any teams, but I saw a coach run a drill with U9s were "anything goes."   It was a 1 v 1 drill with goals.  Most kids just dribbled the ball and played as usual with a bit more elbowing and shoving, but there were a few kids who became beasts.  I saw a kid drag a girl down by her jersey from behind stomp on her when she was down, and take the ball into goal.  I also saw a technically advanced player easily dribble past a player in the 1 v 1, and take off at a sprint.  The other player grabbed her ponytail as she sprinted by with the ball and pulled as hard as she could.  The girl's head who was dribbling was pulled back with such force that it pulled her off her feet and she landed on her back.  Thankfully she wasn't hurt, but there was a lot of crying after that practice.


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## genesis (Sep 8, 2016)

Bananacorner said:


> Thankfully she wasn't hurt, but there was a lot of crying after that practice.


What are the percentages of players crying  after a U9 game or practice? Get ready for reality.


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## genesis (Sep 8, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The crazy parents, unscrupulous coaches/clubs and obviously thin skinned holier than thou refs who cannot take constructive criticism without getting all defensive is why I am glad my daughter is almost done with club soccer.


That's It? Wow is all I can say.


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## mommato2girls (Sep 8, 2016)

I will say though there are just as many stories of girls showing outstanding sportsmanship as there are of girls pulling, tugging, hitting etc. At my littles tournament I counted a handful of times were players stopped and helped a player from the other team up. I heard one girl going through the line saying "You guys were awesome!" even though her team lost. I even saw a u9 score on a keeper, watch her melt into tears and run up and give her a quick hug. Now as they get older I think they play more physical but it's also part of strategy. My older ones old coach used to say feel the team out for the first 5 mins. Are they physical, are they fast, good footskills, play bootball? Who do they need to watch out for and mentally adjust their game. While it may not be pretty, part of the learning process is learning to identity those 'beast' players and play around them, speed by them, pass through them etc. We've only been at this for 3 years but I can't believe this type of play is anywhere near common and is more an anomaly than anything.


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## Laced (Sep 8, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> The crazy parents, unscrupulous coaches/clubs and obviously thin skinned holier than thou refs who cannot take constructive criticism without getting all defensive is why I am glad my daughter is almost done with club soccer.


Why else would you be on a soccer forum like the rest of us soccer junkies.


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## wildcat66 (Sep 9, 2016)

Laced said:


> Why else would you be on a soccer forum like the rest of us soccer junkies.


I use this forum as a way to try to stay informed about the sport.  My kids play soccer, I don't.  Rarely watch it on TV, don't go to games unless my kids in it and don't really follow it I the media.  I am amused as to how serious some of these fellow forum members take this, especially ones who have a kid who is like 9 or 10.   They are already looking at college scholarships.  Ridiculous.  Every time someone has any criticism of any ref, there area couple guys on here that  get all defensive and basically call all parents ignorant and unaware of the rules or the complexity of the game to ever make an observation about how perhaps a ref could have made a bad call.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 9, 2016)

wildcat66 said:


> I use this forum as a way to try to stay informed about the sport.  My kids play soccer, I don't.  Rarely watch it on TV, don't go to games unless my kids in it and don't really follow it I the media.  I am amused as to how serious some of these fellow forum members take this, especially ones who have a kid who is like 9 or 10.   They are already looking at college scholarships.  Ridiculous.  Every time someone has any criticism of any ref, there area couple guys on here that  get all defensive and basically call all parents ignorant and unaware of the rules or the complexity of the game to ever make an observation about how perhaps a ref could have made a bad call.


Don't forget the coaches masquerading as parents under false names on the site and the Club Board Members who use it as a way to expand and or defend their brand. They are my favorite! 
Close second "Future Parent of Olympian/YNT/Stanford" at 10/11/12. Yawn...


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## timbuck (Sep 9, 2016)

Yeah, but a lot of parents are pretty clueless about the laws and how they are applied. 
I've got a friend who has been tossed from a game twice as a spectator. I think the cops even came once.  He was really embarrassed but the whole thing and knows he was wrong. 
This year, he is reffing AYSO games.  He's done a few preseason games so far.  His feedback has been:
1.  This is pretty difficult. 
2. This is pretty fun
3.  It's amazing the things you hear parents and coaches say. 

His daughter got certified to ref also.  He said its helped her understand things on the field better. 

Take the class and run a line on a few games. You'll be surprised at how different you'll view parts of the game.


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## etc1217 (Sep 9, 2016)

timbuck said:


> His daughter got certified to ref also. He said its helped her understand things on the field better.


I agree with what timbuck said, my DD has been an AYSO ref since she was 13 and it helped her understand the game much better.  So when she does agrue a call with a ref when she plays, she can back it up with the knowledge of what she has learned reffing over the years. Although, she doesn't always agree with the calls, she will respect it and move on. But she as an AR has gotten yelled at by parents for making calls that they didn't like and she felt uncomfortable because she is a kid but she got over it. Let's be real, especially in the older age brackets, the girls know who did what and who should get the call but every one of them will be the "actress/drama queen" on the field to try and get it to go in their favor. 

The refs do the best job they can and make the calls they see fit and yes, us - parents, will always yell and disagree but it's all part of the game...it's not an exciting game if there is no drama to talk about afterwards....


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## jrcaesar (Sep 9, 2016)

etc1217 said:


> But she as an AR has gotten yelled at by parents for making calls that they didn't like and she felt uncomfortable because she is a kid but she got over it


AYSO should be the best youth referee training ground to prepare to cross over to doing club games since in theory there is zero tolerance for youth referee abuse by parents while the kids are getting game experience.  There is no "Ask Tell Dismiss" when a youth ref is out there, only "Dismiss." Of course it takes other refs and parents to protect and enforce.


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## timbuck (Sep 9, 2016)

Here's the thing -
Refs will make mistakes.  Several a game probably.  Here are some of the common sideline complaints:
1.  Throw in the wrong way -  Rarely does this ever impact the game.  Count to 5 after a throw-in and the ball gets turned over 90% of the time.
2.  Missed offside call -  If you were playing an offside trap and they missed it, that stinks.  But if it's a run of the mill play and a kid has a step on a defender, your defender got beat.  Too bad.  Should have marked tighter and made the tackle.
3.  Fouls-  Do you know what "advantage" is?  Is the ref letting it play out to see what happens?  Parents scream and yell when contact takes place.  Give the ref 2 seconds to get the whistle to his mouth.  Also, a foul might get called that doesn't look like much.  Stepped on toes, smashed ankles happen quite a bit. Sometimes the ref is looking right at it and sees it.  It should be called.
4.  "Handball!!!"  -  This is the most misunderstood law (offside is a close 2nd).  Ball to hand or hand to ball.  Deliberate or not deliberate?  Natural position or made yourself bigger? Protecting your face/genitals or could you get out of the way?


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## Surfref (Sep 9, 2016)

Unknown said:


> I think the game is getting more physical than tactical.  The past San Diego Surf Cup there were three girls with broken legs on that Saturday alone.  Refs need to do a better job of controlling the game.  Let them play is just an excuse for laziness on their part.


I hear this every year, "The game is getting more Physical" and "Refs do not control the game."  The level of play is not more physical and the refs are the same as they have always been.  All refs call a slightly different style of game and you are just stuck with the ref that you get.

Here is a little education for all of you non-referees and some of you referees.  This past weekend at Blues Cup, while standing in line with another referee to get a couple street tacos, a parent asked us why we call some fouls and not others.  He was truly curious, “in football (American) the officials call all the penalties they see, but it seems like the officials in soccer let a lot of penalties go uncalled.”  Here is what we told him in a nutshell:

1. Unlike football, soccer is a game that should flow with as few stoppages as possible.  A referee may see a foul, but if the player is able to play through the foul and continue on than there is no reason to call the foul and stop the game.

2. What makes you decide to call or not call a foul?  At the moment of the foul, I am taking into consideration the level of play, prior fouls up to that point (called and not called), time into the game, position on the field, if the foul reaches the level of a Red or Yellow card, players ability to continue an attack, possibility of injury, and if the game needs the foul called.  Than, I wait a second to see what happens that may change my decision and thought process.  If the foul needs to be called than I will call it.

3. Not all fouls need to be called.  If a defender is shielding a ball that is about to go out for a goal kick and gets pushed, normally there is no reason to call the foul.  I will just give the goal kick and have a quick word with the offending player.  Now think about this.  Does it make more sense to give the team a goal kick six yards from the goal line or award the foul and have them take the kick less than a yard from the goal line.  Of course there are times when I may want to call that foul to send a message to the players that those types of fouls are unacceptable.

I always start out calling a tight game since it is easier to lighten up than it is tighten up.  Players rarely seem to like it when a referee suddenly starts calling a tight game in the 60th minute after letting things go up until that point.  At the older ages and adults, I do listen to the player’s comments and will adjust how I am calling a game based on how the players might be reacting.  The last thing I want to have happen is that the players perceive I am letting too much go and take matters into their own hands and start taking each other out.  In my DD college game last night the referee was calling a very soft (too soft in my opinion) game despite the comments from the players.  About ¾ of the way into the game the players started doing their own enforcement with intentional hard fouls, elbows to ribs, and late hits both in and out of bounds.  The referee attempted to reign the players in with about 6-7 fouls called in a 5 minute duration, but it was too late and he ended up giving the other team 2 cautions which had little effect.  Had he controlled the game early he would not have had the problems late.


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## Bananacorner (Sep 9, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Close second "Future Parent of Olympian/YNT/Stanford" at 10/11/12. Yawn...


Ha agree - these are almost always the parents of the kid who matured early/started early puberty,  have older siblings who pushed them at the younger ages so they are extra aggressive at a young age, or other such events of early development.  They just see their kid effortlessly (without working hard outside of practice) dominate kids their age. Parents don't realize that other kids will catch up, oh yes they will.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 9, 2016)

Bananacorner said:


> Ha agree - these are almost always the parents of the kid who matured early/started early puberty,  have older siblings who pushed them at the younger ages so they are extra aggressive at a young age, or other such events of early development.  They just see their kid effortlessly (without working hard outside of practice) dominate kids their age. Parents don't realize that other kids will catch up, oh yes they will.


See you at 15 where they all level out. It's the ones who don't have olders.


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## Laced (Sep 11, 2016)

baldref said:


> we definitely disagree on that. and being i've seen hundreds of more games than you, and ran up and down sidelines listening to ridiculous comments for many, many years, i believe i have a better insight on the reality than you.
> 
> and you would think that i'm speaking of lower level younger games. but, some of the most clueless and misinformed parents i have ever run across, were ecnl champions league games, surf cup olders games, etc.....
> it boggles my mind that these parents have kids that play at the highest levels, and they really have no idea what it is they're watching.


I appreciate your perspective.

A larger sample size doesn't entail better insight, as these comments come from a much larger parent pool. Could comments directed at your compromise your objectivity? None of our parents or coaches has ever been tossed or even warned. But that's not my main point. Or possibly where we see things differently.

Animosity between refs and parents, refs and coaches is toxic and detrimental. The problem lies partially with refs who don't tolerate any level of questioning or dissent. Who take every comment with a defensive mentality and resort to "no more word you'll outta here" every time their judgment is questioned. Who escalate ignorable comments.

There're already penalties and procedures to deal with out-of-line players, parents or coaches. Ejection is always an option. On the other hand, there's no practical and effective recourse against refs' mistakes.

If refs want parents to be quiet as if they were attending an opera, if refs expect perfect behavior from parents, they should hold themselves to higher standard as well. At least to the level of USSF refs that work DA games. Against that standard, too often CRs don't work hard enough to get themselves a better angle and closer to the play. Too often ARs, on simple calls like throw ins wait for CRs before they signal with their flags. ARs don't call fouls often enough when they happen right in front of them. Just today, I heard a DA player say "What the f$#@" about a call, and I respect the CR for not overeacting. If refs expect to accept their mistakes, they should reciprocate.

Given the pool of people willing and able to ref, given their relative meager pay, I expect reasonable mistakes. Given that soccer is relative new and most parents didn't grow up playing the sport, given that sports naturally invoke passion, I also understand why parents voice their dissent and be loud. My observation is that a great majority of parents' behavior and comments are well within reasonable range. I just don't buy it that every ill with youth soccer starts and ends with parents.

Refs' mistakes, even when affecting the outcome of a game, don't concern me. What concerns me is that they stump a player's growth. For example, a player cannot properly learn offside traps when refs call offside incorrectly. If we get rid of the animosity, refs can offer a simple explanation of their calls. We'd remove another obstacle to player development. We'd at least create a healthier environment for the kids to play sports. It is in this context I view parents behavior and refs' mistakes.


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## baldref (Sep 11, 2016)

what a bunch of crap. ref's mistakes stump a player's growth? huh?
"The problem lies partially with refs who don't tolerate any level of questioning or dissent." ..... no problem here. respect the referee, watch your kid's game, and enjoy it. if you choose to rag at the referee, you are at fault, 100%, for any consequences that ensue. you're also embarrassing yourself and your kid. just ask them.  

if you choose to live by this attitude you have, might as well stay home. let your player enjoy the game without you making it about yourself and whether or not the referee stumped his/her growth.


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## mommato2girls (Sep 11, 2016)

Jeesh, the only thing I hope to see out of a ref is that they keep our players safe. A refs one call or mistake isnt life changing unless it results in an injury. Yesterday we had a great center ref but our line refs did nothing. The center ref called a foul on a girl who blatantly pushed from the back, no card. Same girl did this 2 more times, similar fouls in front of the line refs and no call. Her coach ended up pulling her, why? I'm not sure but I'm hoping it was bc she saw she was getting frustrated and using physical play as an equalizer. We lost the game, I could care less. My kid had an amazing left footed goal, some calls were missed, some were mistakes. No injuries occurred so it's all good. Just a regular day in the life of a soccer player.


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## MakeAPlay (Sep 11, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I hear this every year, "The game is getting more Physical" and "Refs do not control the game."  The level of play is not more physical and the refs are the same as they have always been.  All refs call a slightly different style of game and you are just stuck with the ref that you get.
> 
> Here is a little education for all of you non-referees and some of you referees.  This past weekend at Blues Cup, while standing in line with another referee to get a couple street tacos, a parent asked us why we call some fouls and not others.  He was truly curious, “in football (American) the officials call all the penalties they see, but it seems like the officials in soccer let a lot of penalties go uncalled.”  Here is what we told him in a nutshell:
> 
> ...



College soccer on the women's side is a tame version of football.  Physical yet controlled play is part of the deal.  Obviously there is a big difference between violent, dirty play and physical play but to any parents with younger players make no mistake this isn't ballet.


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## MakeAPlay (Sep 11, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> Jeesh, the only thing I hope to see out of a ref is that they keep our players safe. A refs one call or mistake isnt life changing unless it results in an injury. Yesterday we had a great center ref but our line refs did nothing. The center ref called a foul on a girl who blatantly pushed from the back, no card. Same girl did this 2 more times, similar fouls in front of the line refs and no call. Her coach ended up pulling her, why? I'm not sure but I'm hoping it was bc she saw she was getting frustrated and using physical play as an equalizer. We lost the game, I could care less. My kid had an amazing left footed goal, some calls were missed, some were mistakes. No injuries occurred so it's all good. Just a regular day in the life of a soccer player.


I agree.  Keep them safe.  A ref in my players game on Friday missed a pretty significant call that most definitely made a difference in the game once viewed on the television replay.  No worries.  In the run of play it was very hard to see since the play happened so fast.  We spectators even missed it.  All I generally want from a center ref are two things.  First protect the players. Second, be consistent.  If the ref gives me those two things then I am happy even if they miss a call or two.  They are human and personally if I had a buck for every mistake I made then I would have one of those Scrooge McDuck style money bins to swim in!

It's just a game.


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## whatever (Sep 11, 2016)

With all the attention and focus on complaining about bad refs here's a different option: when you watch your kid's game and are impressed with the ref crew - compliment them at the end of the game or put a call in to the league to compliment the crew or if at a tourney walk up to the registration tent and share your compliment for said ref crew.  Only a coach can file a complaint against a ref but anyone can file a compliment. Who knows, maybe it will help. It can't hurt.


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## elephantchowder (Sep 11, 2016)

Refs doing the best they can.  Can't imagine any ref not wanting to keep the players safe.


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

Laced said:


> ......Too often ARs, on simple calls like throw ins wait for CRs before they signal with their flags. ARs don't call fouls often enough when they happen right in front of them....."


I will address two very small topics you brought up as a way to educate since you evidently do not understand the rational.

1) The AR and CR signals on a throw-in, goal kick and corner kick are not as cut and dry as you think. The referees work as a team with the CR being the boss.  The one thing a referee team does not want to do on a throw-in is to have the CR pointing north and the AR pointing south.  That diminishes the referee teams credibility and confuses the coaches, players and spectators.  So when a ball goes out of play over the touch line, the AR should shift the flag to the hand that he thinks the direction of the throw should go and make eye contact with the CR.  The CR will observe which hand the AR has the flag, make eye contact and if he agrees signal.  Some CR will move their hand out about 6-10 inches from their waist in the direction they think which is a cue to the AR as to which direction the CR thinks the throw should go.  If the CR and AR agree than they will both signal in the same direction.  If they do not agree, there are little signals the CR and AR can give each other as to what they saw or, as I prefer if I am close enough, just ask "what did you see" or I will say what I saw.  In the end, the CR and AR should always signal in the same direction.  So, that is why AR's wait to signal.  Same basically goes for GK and CK.

2) Something similar happens when the AR sees a foul.  The AR makes eye contact with the CR to see if the CR had seen the foul.  Then the AR runs through a few internal questions depending on what they saw, "Would the CR call it if he had seen it?", "Is there an advantage possibility the CR is letting play out?", "Is the CR taking a "wait and see" approach to this foul?", "Does the game need the foul called?".  All of these questions and possibly some others roll through the AR's head in well less than a second while making eye contact with the CR.  Then the CR may give the AR a very slight hand signal that he does not want the foul called.  These signals are not standard and a good ref crew will brief them prior to the game.  I had a foul occur right in front of me (AR) yesterday that as a CR I would have called, but when I looked at the CR he gave me a slight hand gesture "no" that he did not want it called so I did not call it.  Had I raised the flag to call the foul, the CR would have just waved me down and caused players, coaches and spectators to yell at the referee.  As a rule of thumb, ARs should not be calling more than 1-2 fouls per half in a 90 minute game.  If the AR is making too many calls than there is a problem within the referee crew.

So, hopefully now you have a little better understanding of the CR-AR relationship and that it is not as black and white as it may appear.


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

MakeAPlay said:


> College soccer on the women's side is a tame version of football.  Physical yet controlled play is part of the deal.  Obviously there is a big difference between violent, dirty play and physical play but to any parents with younger players make no mistake this isn't ballet.


After games my DD sometimes refers to college soccer as a rugby match.  DD is also a referee and she tends to blame the college refs for letting games get out of hand to the point that the players will take enforcement into their own hands.  She had a game last week that was like this.  On one play with the ball at my DD feet, the defender had a hold of her collar and was pulling back and down.  The referee had a good view of this from about 10 yards away and did not make the call.  The next thing that happened was a reminder to me that my little 5'2" daughter is not always nice and sweet.  DD sent an elbow into the defenders ribs than a straight arm to her face before the defender let go.  No call from the referee.  Most of the overly physical nasty play I have seen during college games is in a large part due to the referee not keeping the game under control and allowing the nasty play.


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## Bananacorner (Sep 12, 2016)

How sad.  How's a gal to play the beautiful game if she has to engage in ongoing cat fights during a match?  That is a shame.  Is men's college soccer the same?


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

Refereeing is not as easy as some of you may think.  You have to deal with coaches that try to sway or "work" the referee and some parents that do not fully understand the LOTG (rules).  This past Saturday about 20 seconds after I indicated there would be 2 minutes of add time in a 1-1 game, I and my AR made a tripping call that resulted in a PK that was converted and made the score 2-1.  It only took two stupid parents to yell "You can't add time" and "PK's can't be called in overtime."  Both comments completely incorrect and idiotic, but the mindless masses of parents on that sideline took it as gospel and ran with it.  Then the players started repeating it.  By the time the game was over the only sane people left on that sideline was the coach, assistant coach and about three fathers who were trying to shut up the players and parents.

You can yell at me once if you disagree with a call or non-call, but don't continue to yell because I can guarantee you that I heard you the first time.  I do not deal with spectators in youth games, but I do deal with the coaches and have removed a coach or two for the conduct of their spectators.  I always warn the coach first unless profanity or threats toward players or refs is involved.  If it is just due to continuous inappropriate comments, I am going to have the coach remove the spectator and deal with it through their club.  If profanity or threats toward players or refs is the reason for the spectator removal than I will send a report to the gaming league.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2016)

Since this has become a referee thread, here's one for you:
In a game yesterday, referee continually marks off way more than 10 yards room for free kick. On next kick, player counts out referee's steps: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13."  As a referee, I laughed to myself.

I'm relatively short (5'9) and my full stride is almost spot on 3 feet. Referee was about 6'3" with a big stride. The distance was at least 15 yards.

Referee barks to the player: "If you disrespect me again like that, I'll throw you out of the game." As a referee myself, I didn't see this as dissent at all. But referee got caught.


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## espola (Sep 12, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Since this has become a referee thread, here's one for you:
> In a game yesterday, referee continually marks off way more than 10 yards room for free kick. On next kick, player counts out referee's steps: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13."  As a referee, I laughed to myself.
> 
> I'm relatively short (5'9) and my full stride is almost spot on 3 feet. Referee was about 6'3" with a big stride. The distance was at least 15 yards.
> ...


Interesting.  6'3" referee with short referee syndrome.

I would like to see the referee explanation for the ejection on the game report - "Player counted too high".


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Since this has become a referee thread, here's one for you:
> In a game yesterday, referee continually marks off way more than 10 yards room for free kick. On next kick, player counts out referee's steps: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13."  As a referee, I laughed to myself.
> 
> I'm relatively short (5'9) and my full stride is almost spot on 3 feet. Referee was about 6'3" with a big stride. The distance was at least 15 yards.
> ...


That is why you should never walk off the 10 yards.  I am short and it takes me at least 12 steps to get 10 yards (have checked it on a football field).  I a good at knowing how far the 10 yard spot is and do not walk it off.  I just go to my 10 yard spot and move the players.  I very rarely have players question the distance, but I have had players tell me that I am required to walk off the 10 yards.  If I answer them they get a polite "No I am not required" and get play going again.  I did once see a referee whip out a tape measure, but that was at an AYSO game many many years ago.  Thought it was funny.

I am not sure what that knucklehead ref was going to use as justification for an ejection.  Maybe a Caution for dissent, but that would even be pushing it. I have heard players count the referee's steps and heard referees tell players that they do not need to help with counting.  I would just ignore them.  I learned a long time ago to never threaten the players with a Yellow or Red card.


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

espola said:


> Interesting.  6'3" referee with short referee syndrome.
> 
> I would like to see the referee explanation for the ejection on the game report - "Player counted too high".


He would probably be one of those referees that just does not hand in a report.


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## socalkdg (Sep 12, 2016)

Funny story, and remember these are volunteers.   In AYSO game this past Saturday, I instructed my girls to kick the ball directly back to my sweeper who then kicks it deep into the corner for one of my sprinting forwards.  OK, that is what should happen in my mind, but these girls are rec players and only 11, so either the kick goes down the middle, or my forwards don't run, but that is besides the point.

So she kicks it back.  Referee blows  his whistle and says to restart as the ball has to go forward.   I reminded him about the new rule implemented recently and the training we all just went through.   He said, fine, if you want to play by those rules...........

Very funny.   My parents got a kick out of it, and I wasn't trying to show him up.  He went ahead and let play continue with my sweeper having the ball.


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2016)

Interesting to hear perspectives from both sides of the pitch...as with most things the reality is somewhere in the middle.  Unfortunately it does illustrate the great divide that exists between some referees and some parents.  Not that I condone certain parent behavior but its really a sign of a less than competent ref that engages in sideline debate with a parent.  Nothing positive can come from that interaction.  Nice to see that some refs follow the proper protocol and take it up with the Coach...I wish more would do so.


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## Laced (Sep 12, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I will address two very small topics you brought up as a way to educate since you evidently do not understand the rational.
> 
> 1) The AR and CR signals on a throw-in, goal kick and corner kick are not as cut and dry as you think. The referees work as a team with the CR being the boss.  The one thing a referee team does not want to do on a throw-in is to have the CR pointing north and the AR pointing south.  That diminishes the referee teams credibility and confuses the coaches, players and spectators.  So when a ball goes out of play over the touch line, the AR should shift the flag to the hand that he thinks the direction of the throw should go and make eye contact with the CR.  The CR will observe which hand the AR has the flag, make eye contact and if he agrees signal.  Some CR will move their hand out about 6-10 inches from their waist in the direction they think which is a cue to the AR as to which direction the CR thinks the throw should go.  If the CR and AR agree than they will both signal in the same direction.  If they do not agree, there are little signals the CR and AR can give each other as to what they saw or, as I prefer if I am close enough, just ask "what did you see" or I will say what I saw.  In the end, the CR and AR should always signal in the same direction.  So, that is why AR's wait to signal.  Same basically goes for GK and CK.
> 
> ...


Throw is is as black and white as it goes in soccer. Unlike fouls where there's advantage to be considered, or offside where there's judgment as to if a player in offside position is in active play, there's no judgment or discretion involved in throw ins. Don't quite understand why you consider extraneous factors such as refs credibility. According to USSF Guide to Procedures, on throw ins, CR "points in direction of throw-in only if correction or confirmation needed" and AR "drops flag when it is clear that restart and direction are established." Pretty clear that ARs are supposed to signal direction of a throw in. Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal. It makes sense because ARs are usually better positioned to see who last touched the ball. And it's one of ARs' primary duties.

LOTG also explicitly states that in "clear situations" "show goal kick or corner kick directly." And "priority for AR."

Where do you get the 1-2 foul cap on ARs? Refs role is to enforce rules. Not make rules.


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## baldref (Sep 12, 2016)

Laced said:


> Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal.


wrong. try again


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## Surfref (Sep 12, 2016)

Laced said:


> Throw is is as black and white as it goes in soccer. Unlike fouls where there's advantage to be considered, or offside where there's judgment as to if a player in offside position is in active play, there's no judgment or discretion involved in throw ins. Don't quite understand why you consider extraneous factors such as refs credibility. According to USSF Guide to Procedures, on throw ins, CR "points in direction of throw-in only if correction or confirmation needed" and AR "drops flag when it is clear that restart and direction are established." Pretty clear that ARs are supposed to signal direction of a throw in. Only when in doubt are ARs supposed to make eye contact with CRs and follow CR's signal. It makes sense because ARs are usually better positioned to see who last touched the ball. And it's one of ARs' primary duties.
> 
> LOTG also explicitly states that in "clear situations" "show goal kick or corner kick directly." And "priority for AR."
> 
> Where do you get the 1-2 foul cap on ARs? Refs role is to enforce rules. Not make rules.


USSF Guide to Procedures is not a valid document for referees.  The AR works for the referee.  For instance, if Baldref is th CR and I am the AR and he tells me to not indicate direction on throw-ins or call fouls than I will not indicate direction or call fouls.  ARs are there to assist the CR.  The excerpt from the LOTG 2016/2017 are below.
Laws of the Game 2016/2017, Law 6, Page 53, First Paragraph:
Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee.

Paragraph 2, First Sentence:
The match officials operate under the direction of the referee.

As for the number of fouls an AR can call during the game, it is sort of a rule of thumb.  If you had ever attended advanced referee training such as RPD you would know that.  If the AR is calling 4+ fouls in a half that would be a good indication of a referee that is out of position or an inexperienced AR.  I recently worked with a fairly new adult AR that flagged fouls on almost every throw-in and corner kick.  He was calling every minor/trifling push or jersey grab even though they had no impact on the play.  I finally had to tell him to stop calling fouls after his 5th foul all within the first 15 minutes.

Throw-ins are not always an easy black and white call.  The ball will often hit a toe, heel, shirt, shorts, hair that the AR may not see and the CR does and vice versa.  Offside is one of the easier calls to make for an AR that is positioned properly, especially with the changes to Law 11 over the last few years and in the 2016/2017 LOTG.

These things are not that difficult for referees that attend training, do some LOTG studying, and other education such as watching videos and reading the related explanation on PRO Referee website.


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## watfly (Sep 12, 2016)

Does it strike anyone as funny that a publication by the governing body of soccer in the United States isn't valid but an unwritten "rule of thumb" is?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2016)

watfly said:


> Does it strike anyone as funny that a publication by the governing body of soccer in the United States isn't valid but an unwritten "rule of thumb" is?


Do you mean the USSF Procedures that state?:


> Assistant Referee (throw in)
> Provides confirming flag signal after referee indicates throw-in decision. If referee makes obvious eye contact to ask for assistance before indicating a decision, uses signal to establish direction which was agreed to in the pre-game conference, and then provides confirming throw-in flag signal after referee indcates (sic) decision.


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## Laced (Sep 12, 2016)

Surfref said:


> USSF Guide to Procedures is not a valid document for referees.  The AR works for the referee.  For instance, if Baldref is th CR and I am the AR and he tells me to not indicate direction on throw-ins or call fouls than I will not indicate direction or call fouls.  ARs are there to assist the CR.  The excerpt from the LOTG 2016/2017 are below.
> Laws of the Game 2016/2017, Law 6, Page 53, First Paragraph:
> Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee.
> 
> ...


Aren't referees certified by USSF? Who exactly is the Guide written for then?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2016)

Laced said:


> Aren't referees certified by USSF? Who exactly is the Guide written for then?


Referees are bound by the LOTG, despite being certified by USSF. Sort of like you get your driver license from the DMV, but must follow the CA Vehicle Code, not the DMV "driver handbook."

And, by the way, the Guide everyone is referring to was published in 2012, and is considered obsolete due to the numerous changes to the LOTG since then.


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## Laced (Sep 12, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> Referees are bound by the LOTG, despite being certified by USSF. Sort of like you get your driver license from the DMV, but must follow the CA Vehicle Code, not the DMV "driver handbook."
> 
> And, by the way, the Guide everyone is referring to was published in 2012, and is considered obsolete due to the numerous changes to the LOTG since then.


It's considered obsolete by whom? Which part of LOTG or the new changes does it contradict? If the Guide is obsolete, is a ref's certification obsolete as well according to your logic?

Interpreation of the Laws of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states on throw-ins that "When the ball crosses the touch line near to the assistant referee's position, he must make a direct signal to indicate the direction of the throw-in." No where in LOTG or the Guidelines is refs credibility mentioned.

On fouls, LOTG Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states "The assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee's vision." Where's the 1-2 foul cap for ARs?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 12, 2016)

Laced said:


> It's considered obsolete by whom?


As far as I know, it is no longer linked nor published by USSF.


Laced said:


> Which part of LOTG or the new changes does it contradict? If the Guide is obsolete, is a ref's certification obsolete as well according to your logic?


There have been many changes since 2012, and a list exists as to the obsolete and incorrect interpretations, but I don't have those off-hand. Can post later.

Certifications are given each year based upon continuing education and training on the CURRENT laws. Yes, a 2012 certification of a referee is obsolete. 


Laced said:


> LOTG explicitly states that the ball passes over the touchline near the AR, "a direct signal should be made to indicate the direction of the throw-in." When it's far from the AR and the AR is in doubt, "the AR msut raise the flag to inform the referee that the all is out of play, make eye contact with the referee and follow the referee's signal." The last quoted section is not stated when it's near the AR and in the absence of doubt.


Correct, sort of. The sections you quote are not laws, but under the "Practical Guidelines" section.
Referees still employ the procedures with eye contact and indication by AR "mirroring" the CR, anytime the direction is not obvious, even if very close to the AR. Especially if there is mutual contact before going out of bounds, or a potential deflection etc. That's just how referees work, and it is not contrary to the LOTG.


Laced said:


> On fouls, LOTG Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees explicitly states "The assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee's vision." Where's the 1-2 foul cap for ARs?


Yes, it says that, but you omitted:
_Before signalling for an offence, the AR must determine that:
• the offence was out of the referee’s view or the referee’s view was obstructed
• the referee would not have applied the advantage

The AR must use the “wait and see technique” to allow play to continue and not raise the flag when the team against which an offence has been committed will benefit from the advantage; it is therefore very important for the AR to make eye contact with the referee.
_
The eye contact and waiting is so that the AR does not raise the flag and incite the players and sidelines, 0n a "call" contrary to the CR's wishes.


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## Laced (Sep 12, 2016)

coachrefparent said:


> As far as I know, it is no longer linked nor published by USSF.
> 
> There have been many changes since 2012, and a list exists as to the obsolete and incorrect interpretations, but I don't have those off-hand. Can post later.
> 
> ...


I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.

All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.


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## baldref (Sep 13, 2016)

Laced said:


> I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.
> 
> All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.


most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.

just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 13, 2016)

Laced said:


> I believe the LOTG Guidelines are binding, although I'm just too lazy to look it up. What can be more authoritative than the official interpretations? If you follow the previous posts, the discussion is about when the ball goes out of bounds near the AR, or when the fouls occur near the AR.
> 
> All this discussion started when I mentioned that if you were to hold refs to a higher standard. You really have to expect and accept refs mistakes. On the other hand, refs should accept or simply brush off some questioning from players, parents and coaches. As shown by the example in your prior post, some refs are too confrontational or arrogant. That's part of the problem.


I don't think we really disagree,  but when those on the sidelines are adament that the AR should immediately call ALL out of bounds directions for balls near them,  as opposed to working together with the CR to make the correct call, it is a hopeless situation for the referee crew. 

A throw in, really? 

And to add,  most sideline experts have no idea that plays that occur right at the AR's feet are often the hardest to make when the defense is retreating,  and the AR has to watch the offside line some 50 yards across the field.


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## socalkdg (Sep 13, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the discussion.  I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job.  It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.

By the way, this is the same as any sport.  I've noticed when my kid played basketball that the parents are much  worse with basketball referees, and every umpire is blind when it comes to balls and strikes.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 13, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Thanks everyone for the discussion.  I had always felt that AR's were there to assist the CR, with the offside call being one of the most important parts of their job.  It is interesting when a AR seems to be the one in charge and the CR seems to look to that AR frequently. Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.


If you ask 100 referees, 99 will agree with you.


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## Laced (Sep 13, 2016)

baldref said:


> most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.
> 
> just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.


If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make


baldref said:


> most of the problem is....... parents, such as yourself, who think they're right, when they are not, and decide to tell the referee team what they think they know, but don't.
> 
> just one man's opinion. but of course yours is more valid because you read it online.


If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.


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## baldref (Sep 14, 2016)

Laced said:


> If we parents cause you so much misery, why do you choose to make
> 
> If parents cause you so much misery, why ref? If you don't want anyone to ever show you up, start your own business and be your own boss. Or get a job in a graveyard or as a night librarian.


parents don't cause me any misery at all. just pointing out you don't really know what you're talking about. end of that story.
i referee because i absolutely love it, and i'm very good at it. there is no better place to watch a high level soccer game than standing in the middle of it. and most of the time, in high level games, i don't have much else to do besides watch. the kids play, and i just make sure they all keep playing. that's about it.....


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## jrcaesar (Sep 14, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Gives the appearance that the CR either doesn't know what they are doing, or that the AR is being overbearing and taking control of the game.


Here's another (much more likely) possibility: The referee is new to that game level, is struggling, and the AR is trying to mentor the ref through the game. Everyone has to have  some first games, even referees.


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## Unknown (Sep 14, 2016)

The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.


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## Surfref (Sep 15, 2016)

Unknown said:


> The bottom line the CR has the last call and the AR are there only to assist the CR.
> If only the refs could prevent more injuries by making justified calls, the beautiful game will be beautiful again.


I hear this BS about the refs being responsible for players getting injured all the time.  Remember referees cannot call the foul until it has occurred.  There are other game management tools referees can use but there is still the possibility of players getting injured.  I have called some very tight games and some defender still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player.  I have also worked games where the game is very clean and few fouls are called and a player still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player.  Sure a referee can call the foul and issue a Red card after the foul, but there is no way I or any other referee can stop a foul and subsequent injury from happening.  Referees can reduce the likelihood of reckless or dangerous fouls, but will never be able to stop an injury before it happens.  Even if referees make every "justified" foul call in a game there are still going to be on and off the ball injuries. 

Now, a referee that flat out swallows their whistle is another matter.  Referees that do not use the tools at their disposal run the risk of the players taking enforcement into their own hands.  This small percentage of referees are the ones that give the rest of the hard working good referees a bad reputation.  I know a couple of these types of referees and they tend to be arrogant and do not listen to  constructive feedback.  You are going to have a few bad apples in every profession.  I can also name a few coaches that think they are the worlds greatest coaches, but their teams lose more than they win and their players do not develop and improve.


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## younothat (Sep 15, 2016)

That's what I joke to my boy about, man you're a "dirty burt"   Good thing he does his own laundry,  he's' getting good at pre-treating the after game dirt/turf stains/marks.

Soccer is a player's game, ref just has some tools after the fact.

If your player is a Striker afterbody is after them, can seem like they don't get as many calls as they should, there are too many rash tackle attempts, or players are "dirty"

My players have been punched or elbowed directly in the face, ribs, back, groin, kicked everywhere, pulled down by their hair, uniform pulled so hard it ripped,  and I've seen multiple opponents red carded and suspended x number of games.

Would rather not treat my kids black eye,  take them to the dentist, PT, or have to get a new jersey that has been ripped but that's soccer a contact support where some players loose their mind's in the heat of the battle.


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## espola (Sep 15, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I hear this BS about the refs being responsible for players getting injured all the time.  Remember referees cannot call the foul until it has occurred.  There are other game management tools referees can use but there is still the possibility of players getting injured.  I have called some very tight games and some defender still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player.  I have also worked games where the game is very clean and few fouls are called and a player still comes in late for a tackle and injures a player.  Sure a referee can call the foul and issue a Red card after the foul, but there is no way I or any other referee can stop a foul and subsequent injury from happening.  Referees can reduce the likelihood of reckless or dangerous fouls, but will never be able to stop an injury before it happens.  Even if referees make every "justified" foul call in a game there are still going to be on and off the ball injuries.
> 
> Now, a referee that flat out swallows their whistle is another matter.  Referees that do not use the tools at their disposal run the risk of the players taking enforcement into their own hands.  This small percentage of referees are the ones that give the rest of the hard working good referees a bad reputation.  I know a couple of these types of referees and they tend to be arrogant and do not listen to  constructive feedback.  You are going to have a few bad apples in every profession.  I can also name a few coaches that think they are the worlds greatest coaches, but their teams lose more than they win and their players do not develop and improve.


I think your first paragraph should have a long talk with your second paragraph.


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## Surfref (Sep 15, 2016)

espola said:


> I think your first paragraph should have a long talk with your second paragraph.


Those whistle swallowing referees do get talked too, but many of them do not listen.  The assigners will finally get tired of hearing about them and start to give them fewer and fewer games until they move to a new ref association and assigner.  Most good refs know who the bad apples are and try to avoid them.


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## socalkdg (Sep 15, 2016)

During the Olympics I watched Neymar get hit by 5-6 different people in one game(yes I know he has a tendancy to fall easy, but these were solid fouls), resulting in yellow cards for some of them.  He could have been injured on any number of plays.   Should the referee increase the penalty for each successive player, or does each player seem to get one free shot at him.   Has this happened in a youth soccer match?


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## watfly (Sep 15, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Those whistle swallowing referees do get talked too, but many of them do not listen.  The assigners will finally get tired of hearing about them and start to give them fewer and fewer games until they move to a new ref association and assigner.  Most good refs know who the bad apples are and try to avoid them.


Good to hear.  In the last 4 years I've only once seen a ref swallowing a whistle create a real dangerous player safety situation.  It was a "dirty team" that pushed, punched, tripped/pushed from behind, gave the single finger salute a number of times and told an opposing parent to "shut the F up" (BTW these were 8 year olds).  Play must of stopped almost a dozen times to tend to injured players.  The saddest part is the AR agreed that the CR had let the game get out of control, but said he couldn't do or say anything because of Ref Protocol.  Sad that that took precedent over player safety.


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## socalkdg (Sep 15, 2016)

watfly said:


> Good to hear.  In the last 4 years I've only once seen a ref swallowing a whistle create a real dangerous player safety situation.  It was a "dirty team" that pushed, punched, tripped/pushed from behind, gave the single finger salute a number of times and told an opposing parent to "shut the F up" (BTW these were 8 year olds).  Play must of stopped almost a dozen times to tend to injured players.  The saddest part is the AR agreed that the CR had let the game get out of control, but said he couldn't do or say anything because of Ref Protocol.  Sad that that took precedent over player safety.


Not sure a referee could fix this situation.   This is a case of these kids parents needing a good smack up side the head.


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## watfly (Sep 15, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Not sure a referee could fix this situation.   This is a case of these kids parents needing a good smack up side the head.


No doubt. The long term fix is for these kids to have some appropriate role models, but the ref could have taken care of the immediate issue.  No way of knowing, but I got the sense that maybe the CR was intimidated by the parents (who were equally out of control). It's hard to fathom what these kids will be like when they are 16...that's the saddest part.


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## Unknown (Sep 15, 2016)

CR should use the whistle more often to control the game, so the players know that that CR means business and won't try to get away with fouls.  CRS can prevent injuries this way.  I have ref some games that a player or two try to test me how easy or hard I will be calling those fouls that they commit.  Once they know that I mean business, they won't try to get way with fouls.


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