# New High School Soccer Schedule - Impact on Thanksgiving Tourneys?



## SocalPapa (May 29, 2018)

I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving.  Are all CIF-SS schools doing this?  Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?


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## coachsamy (May 29, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving.  Are all CIF-SS schools doing this?  Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?


My DD's school did this last year, however they did let players play their thanksgiving tournament with no issue with CIF.


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## Simisoccerfan (May 29, 2018)

The answer is relatively simple.  Kids that are playing Thanksgiving tournaments just sit out any preseason game prior to then.  Not a big deal.


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## Eagle33 (May 29, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving.  Are all CIF-SS schools doing this?  Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?


It hard to answer this yet, since it will be a first time that HS will start on November 12th


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## Fact (May 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> My DD's school did this last year, however they did let players play their thanksgiving tournament with no issue with CIF.


@coachsamy you are in San Diego correct?  CIF has traditionally been the worst working with kids, just ask @outside.

So are you saying that your dd was allowed to play in high school
Pre season games with a REF, then played with her club team in a tournament and then was allowed to play high school again? Or did she just sit out of the high school games until the tournament was over?


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## coachsamy (May 29, 2018)

Fact said:


> @coachsamy you are in San Diego correct?  CIF has traditionally been the worst working with kids, just ask @outside.
> 
> So are you saying that your dd was allowed to play in high school
> Pre season games with a REF, then played with her club team in a tournament and then was allowed to play high school again? Or did she just sit out of the high school games until the tournament was over?


Yes I'm in San Diego. 

Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.

 My DD doesn't play in Thanksgiving tournaments (She only played once and only so her grandma can see her play), so I don't have details on the other players. The players I know played that weekend didn't sit out any longer than they normally do during that timeframe. 

As you mentioned I can provide my experience but I do feel I'm giving horrible advice as each school is different and the coaches vary from school to school and as we know what works here doesn't works there even if the rules are the same.


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## Fact (May 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Yes I'm in San Diego.
> 
> Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info but this is not a school thing. It is a CIF thing and each section interprets the rules differently with San Diego being the most restrictive and often interferring with kids going to ID camps.  The rule in San Diego has always been interpreted that once a player plays with the high school
game, even in a scrimmage, they can no longer play with their club team IF the game had a ref.


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## MWN (May 29, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving.  Are all CIF-SS schools doing this?  Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?


Yes, all CIF-SS schools are doing this because the CIF-SS moved up the date of first competition (pre-season) from Nov. 20 to Nov. 12 AND the date of first league games from Jan. 1 to December 22.  Next question, why did the CIF-SS do this?  Because the CIF-SS doesn't care that much about club soccer.

This impacts a number of programs (club schedules, club playoffs, National League, CRL, etc.)

As others have said, yes, players on club and HS teams cannot do both.  They cannot play in preseason HS games while competing in club without violating the CIF rules and risking disqualification.  CRL, for example has already scheduled around this putting the olders on break starting November 18 through March 23.


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## Eagle33 (May 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> Yes, all CIF-SS schools are doing this because the CIF-SS moved up the date of first competition (pre-season) from Nov. 20 to Nov. 12 AND the date of first league games from Jan. 1 to December 22.  Next question, why did the CIF-SS do this?  Because the CIF-SS doesn't care that much about club soccer.


Funny, but many of those CIF board members who come up with this are club coaches.
My understanding is this was done to align HS sports with Academic year, which doesn't make any sense, since many schools start/end at different dates.


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## MWN (May 29, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> Funny, but many of those CIF board members who come up with this are club coaches.
> My understanding is this was done to align HS sports with Academic year, which doesn't make any sense, since many schools start/end at different dates.


The official line is that many schools have switched the beginning of school from early September (after Labor day) to early/mid August.  As such, schools are now ending their academic year earlier, which impacted the "Spring" sports playoffs (playoffs conflicting with graduations, etc.).  Because schools use their own facilities (gyms and fields), the schools with early August starts were running into trouble/conflicts.

I don't know how many are club coaches, as the voting representatives are the Athletic Directors, Superintendents and Principals for their respective schools.


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## DefndrDad (May 29, 2018)

I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.


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## mirage (May 29, 2018)

DefndrDad said:


> I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.


I agree with this statement.

Its about time CIF relax their rules anyway (not gonna happen... I know) so when coaches see more than half of their team gone, probably will go back to the traditional schedule next year.  If not, most simply won't schedule games before the 1st weekend of December.


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## ajaffe (May 29, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Yes I'm in San Diego.
> 
> Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.
> 
> ...


That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage that has a referee you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible.



As for the timing of the season, it is going to be difficult with starting Nov 6 this year and having enough players to play games the week of Thanksgiving or after, so most schools I have talked to are simply not going to. The tricky part is that league play begins in the first week of January for most leagues with cross league games before that, so it limits opportunities for tournaments and non league games greatly. It will be interesting to see how it all works out. 

I am kind of interested to see how football deals with having games before school starts. I think cutting into their monetary bottom line will affect a lot of schools in addition to potentially draining the whole school spirit thing.


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## twoclubpapa (May 30, 2018)

ajaffe said:


> That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage that has a referee you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible.


Parents/players, please don't rely on the above claims.  Go read the primary source documents , i.e. the CIF Southern Section Blue Book or the CIF San Diego Section Green Book for the rules applicable in your section.

What a player can do between club and high school depends on the CIF Section in which their school has membership.  In the Southern Section a player can play with their HS team and train with their club but not play any club matches.  In the San Diego Section they can't even train with their club.
In both sections a players season of sport begins with the first interscholastic "contest" in which they participate.  By rule, a scrimmage is not a "contest."  In previous years, with HS schedules that began Thanksgiving week, early in the week a high school player could play in the one scrimmage allowed their HS team, then play in a Thanksgiving tournament or showcase with their club, and come back the following Monday and begin their HS season of sport by playing for their HS team.  That scenario doesn't work with the earlier start this year.
As a point of information, if a player does participate in a club contest after their high school season of sport begins they are ineligible on a 2-for-1 basis, i.e. ineligible for two HS games for every one club game.


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## twoclubpapa (May 30, 2018)

ajaffe said:


> I am kind of interested to see how football deals with having games before school starts. I think cutting into their monetary bottom line will affect a lot of schools in addition to potentially draining the whole school spirit thing.


I don't think there will be much of an impact.  Schools have been playing high school football games before school begins for years.  Many schools schedule out of state/out of area schools involving significant travel for the week or two before school starts.  One benefit is that players don't miss classes due to the travel involved.


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## Surfref (May 30, 2018)

twoclubpapa said:


> Parents/players, please don't rely on the above claims.  Go read the primary source documents , i.e. the CIF Southern Section Blue Book or the CIF San Diego Section Green Book for the rules applicable in your section.
> 
> What a player can do between club and high school depends on the CIF Section in which their school has membership.  In the Southern Section a player can play with their HS team and train with their club but not play any club matches.  In the San Diego Section they can't even train with their club.
> In both sections a players season of sport begins with the first interscholastic "contest" in which they participate.  By rule, a scrimmage is not a "contest."  In previous years, with HS schedules that began Thanksgiving week, early in the week a high school player could play in the one scrimmage allowed their HS team, then play in a Thanksgiving tournament or showcase with their club, and come back the following Monday and begin their HS season of sport by playing for their HS team.  That scenario doesn't work with the earlier start this year.
> As a point of information, if a player does participate in a club contest after their high school season of sport begins they are ineligible on a 2-for-1 basis, i.e. ineligible for two HS games for every one club game.


He was correct for SD Section, "That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage *that has a referee* you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible."  The key is the NFHS  referee.  It doesn't matter if it is called a game or a scrimmage, if a NFHS referee is involved than it is considered a game no matter how many times the coach or AD call it a scrimmage.  If a player plays it what a coach calls a scrimmage and there is a NFHS referee officiating the game then it is not a scrimmage but an official game.  Now, the player can go play in a club game and hope they don't get found out by CIF.  If they do get found out by CIF then there can be sanctions against the team and/or player.  If the two schools have just some guy (assistant coach or teacher) out there officiating the game wearing a referee shirt that is not a NFHS referee then it can still be considered a scrimmage.

Most of the time when a player plays club games after committing to HS the person that reports it is some parent from another HS team.


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## coachsamy (May 30, 2018)

DefndrDad said:


> I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.


This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School. How does a pay per play game is more important than the experience of HS Athletics? The main reason Varsity sports play preseason is so the teams can bond together for the season and hopefully make it to the playoffs. I know a lot of people will disagree and rightly so, however varsity athletics goes a little beyond of just playing the game, its about enjoying the time in high school, playing with your classmates, taking pride of your school colors and preparing to do so in a college environment, which after all that's what most people are chasing is that coveted college scholarship. 

Last night at my DD's varsity Lacrosse banquet I was blown away by her coach's speech(Event that it drag a little too long) by mentioning great qualities of each one of the 22 players on the team, thanking the seniors for their years of dedication and multisport participation representing the school. To me that was more valuable than any pay for play tournament. How does this relate to this thread? That high school sports are important in an athlete's life and as a parent it should be the priority for our kids. If the soccer club is mad because they lost a player($$$$) for 3-4 months timeframe sounds to me like they need to figure out what to do.


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## outside! (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School.


Maybe. Then again, the people that make the decisions governing HS sports seem to be doing their best to drive the top non male, or non-football and non-basketball athletes away from HS sports. Soccer specific problems include, tiny fields, two refs, limited school administrative support (when was the last time you went to a HS football game and the bathrooms were locked?) and the elephant in the room is CIF.


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## MWN (May 30, 2018)

My solution to this problem is relatively simple, my kid moved teams.  His HS Varsity coach is also his club coach, problem solved ... just play wherever the coach tells him.

For the record, there are really 3 types of game like events.

1. "inter-squad scrimmage" aka practice - scrimmage game between varsity and jv or jv and freshman, these don't count and you can have an unpaid guy in a referee's shirt managing the scrimmage.

2. "interscholastic scrimmage" - training session between two to three schools.  Includes, a single Alumni game.  Can have an unpaid official.  Must be played before team's first interscholastic contest.  Unpaid referee only.    Does not count against the 20 contest rule.

3. "interscholastic contest" - non-league, tournament or league game.  Maximum of 20 contests, not including playoffs.

With regard to Club overlap (BlueBook SS):
Rule 2509 - During Individual’s Season of Sport - A member of a high school soccer team may not, during his or her season of sport, compete for an outside team in the sport of soccer. A season of sport (see Bylaw 504) is defined as that period which begins with a student’s first interscholastic competition (nonleague, tournament, or league game) and ends with that student’s last interscholastic contest (tournament, non-league or CIF Southern Section playoff).  

For our purposes in 2018 that is November 12 for the Southern Section (including SD).  In other words, a Club/HS player can practice through November 11 with both teams and play a club event through November 11.  If the player continues to play club they cannot "compete" for the HS.


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## coachsamy (May 30, 2018)

outside! said:


> Maybe. Then again, the people that make the decisions governing HS sports seem to be doing their best to drive the top non male, or non-football and non-basketball athletes away from HS sports. Soccer specific problems include, tiny fields, two refs, limited school administrative support (when was the last time you went to a HS football game and the bathrooms were locked?) and the elephant in the room is CIF.


I have not encounter none of those issues as you mention besides the 2 referees thing. Now one thing I'll say most of these 2 ref crews did by far a better job than a lot of 3 ref crews I encounter in club soccer. I will agree with you that girls soccer should be schedule to be played under the lights and bring more people. CIF could be the issue with their scheduling and funding, however the rest is a reflection of the parents.

Even better yet, look at the bios of college players and let me know how many of those players list any club accomplishments vs HS accomplishments.


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## Fact (May 30, 2018)

MWN said:


> My solution to this problem is relatively simple, my kid moved teams.  His HS Varsity coach is also his club coach, problem solved ... just play wherever the coach tells him.


Unfortunately this is not a realistic solution for most families and I would venture to say a lot of kids would rather not play for their high school coach at all. You would think the high school coach would play to win, but too often they use it as a recruiting mechanism by not selecting or benching kids that don't play for their club, where they make more money and are more pressured to win.  

Also, don't count on your high school coach getting the rule right.  I've seen several give the wrong information.  When in doubt, email CIF.


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## DefndrDad (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School. How does a pay per play game is more important than the experience of HS Athletics? The main reason Varsity sports play preseason is so the teams can bond together for the season and hopefully make it to the playoffs. I know a lot of people will disagree and rightly so, however varsity athletics goes a little beyond of just playing the game, its about enjoying the time in high school, playing with your classmates, taking pride of your school colors and preparing to do so in a college environment, which after all that's what most people are chasing is that coveted college scholarship.
> 
> Last night at my DD's varsity Lacrosse banquet I was blown away by her coach's speech(Event that it drag a little too long) by mentioning great qualities of each one of the 22 players on the team, thanking the seniors for their years of dedication and multisport participation representing the school. To me that was more valuable than any pay for play tournament. How does this relate to this thread? That high school sports are important in an athlete's life and as a parent it should be the priority for our kids. If the soccer club is mad because they lost a player($$$$) for 3-4 months timeframe sounds to me like they need to figure out what to do.


I fully agree with some of the points you made, the others maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly or we can just agree to disagree.  Let me clarify a bit:

1.  My daughter is a freshman this year and her hs season was an amazing experience for her.  Playing with her classmates she sees everyday, the community and school spirit, the recognition and respect of being a freshman starter on a varsity team, all of which were amplified in a good way as they made their way through the playoffs and won a CIF title.  Any freshman, is a little fish in a big pond looking for their niche.  Soccer did this for her.  Unless she was dead set on playing DA, I will always encourage her to play the high school game (yes I'm assuming she would make a Da team).  I also agree the balance between grades and soccer in hs is a good prep for the college experience and learning time management.  She had many late study nights because practice ran over or traffic was terrible.   
2.  When the hs season started, we had to reschedule some CRL games that were scheduled for December.  This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games.  The club teams goal all year was to win CRL and go to Hawaii.  Now some were faced with abandoning their teammates during a crucial point in the CRL season.  Call it pay to play all you want, these girls had a goal and were close to reaching it.  Thats a difficult decision for any player let alone the parents in the background.    
3.  I never said I thought varsity sports were irrelevant in high school.  I believe the CIF people (whoever dreamt this up knowing the club schedule and not caring) are putting these players in a position where they have to choose between their club and their hs.  On top of that, its no secret that players get recruited from the games they play with their club and not their high school.  I never said club (pay to play in your words) was more important.  But if my daughter is emailing a college coach that will be attending a thanksgiving tournament to see her play, how is a pre-season high school game more important than that?  It would be my personal hope she would decide to play in front of the scout which I believe she would.  As would many other club players on her hs team and probably many of the hs teams they would be playing against.  This would now relegate the 2nd and 3rd string hs players to a starting position.  Does it really matter who wins a hs tournament with the bench players playing?  By the time league play rolls around and into CIF playoffs the teams will look totally different and be the "real" teams they could not be because CIF decided to throw some weight around.  Which in my opinion is what would make the preseason irrelevant. 
4.  Not sure why the soccer club would be mad about lost $$$, the price is yearly with the hs break factored in already.


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## DefndrDad (May 30, 2018)

MWN said:


> My solution to this problem is relatively simple, my kid moved teams.  His HS Varsity coach is also his club coach, problem solved ... just play wherever the coach tells him.
> 
> For the record, there are really 3 types of game like events.
> 
> ...


 What is the 20 contest rule? Is that the number of games a high school can play in a season? Because many play more than that.


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## Eagle33 (May 30, 2018)

MWN said:


> For our purposes in 2018 that is November 12 for the Southern Section (including SD).  In other words, a Club/HS player can practice through November 11 with both teams and play a club event through November 11.  If the player continues to play club they cannot "compete" for the HS.


The problem with this is many club coaches will tell players to sit out HS games so they can finish club season. In few cases it goes deep into December if club team is participating in Disney Showcase. In some schools it means they don't have 1/2 or more of their Varsity team available and resort to use lower level players to play Pre-season games.


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## SocalPapa (May 30, 2018)

DefndrDad said:


> This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games.


You raise an important point with this example.  You can't just dismiss HS preseason games as meaningless.  Players, especially younger players, risk retaliation if they miss.  But skipping showcase tournaments may hurt them even more.  So I guess clubs will go ahead and play Thanksgiving this year and let the chips fall where they may.


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## MWN (May 30, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> The problem with this is many club coaches will tell players to sit out HS games so they can finish club season. In few cases it goes deep into December if club team is participating in Disney Showcase. In some schools it means they don't have 1/2 or more of their Varsity team available and resort to use lower level players to play Pre-season games.


Pushing up the league start date to December 22 will certainly effect a few players, especially any boys on teams playing the Disney Showcase (December 22), but my understanding was there wasn't any HS aged Cal South teams in the showcase last year, so I don't know how much of a problem this will be and it would only impact maybe a few SoCal kids.  The girls showcase is over the Thanksgiving Holiday, so not much of a problem, unless the HS coach is a jerk.

If I was a HS coach, I would think I would be intelligent enough to encourage all the players to continue playing club until the season started (mid-December) knowing that the play was likely higher than anything at the HS level.  Come to practice, but just don't compete in meaningless preseason contests, let the second stringers and some JV players fill in the holes.  If it truly is about winning, then be prepared when league starts.


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## outside! (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> I have not encounter none of those issues as you mention besides the 2 referees thing. Now one thing I'll say most of these 2 ref crews did by far a better job than a lot of 3 ref crews I encounter in club soccer. I will agree with you that girls soccer should be schedule to be played under the lights and bring more people. CIF could be the issue with their scheduling and funding, however the rest is a reflection of the parents.
> 
> Even better yet, look at the bios of college players and let me know how many of those players list any club accomplishments vs HS accomplishments.


Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.

CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.


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## coachsamy (May 30, 2018)

DefndrDad said:


> I fully agree with some of the points you made, the others maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly or we can just agree to disagree.  Let me clarify a bit:
> 
> 1.  My daughter is a freshman this year and her hs season was an amazing experience for her.  Playing with her classmates she sees everyday, the community and school spirit, the recognition and respect of being a freshman starter on a varsity team, all of which were amplified in a good way as they made their way through the playoffs and won a CIF title.  Any freshman, is a little fish in a big pond looking for their niche.  Soccer did this for her.  Unless she was dead set on playing DA, I will always encourage her to play the high school game (yes I'm assuming she would make a Da team).  I also agree the balance between grades and soccer in hs is a good prep for the college experience and learning time management.  She had many late study nights because practice ran over or traffic was terrible.
> 2.  When the hs season started, we had to reschedule some CRL games that were scheduled for December.  This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games.  The club teams goal all year was to win CRL and go to Hawaii.  Now some were faced with abandoning their teammates during a crucial point in the CRL season.  Call it pay to play all you want, these girls had a goal and were close to reaching it.  Thats a difficult decision for any player let alone the parents in the background.
> ...


Thank you for clarifying your point and making excellent points based on your experience. As this is a complex issue with so many variables, opinions, we would disagree with many points, however I do believe that most of us as parents share a common goal of seeing our children succeed in life and do better than we did.

Any club soccer activity such as CRL, tournaments, ID Camps, etc. that have surface during HS season need to move around to appease their customer which are the kids playing in HS. CRL I believe does their olders around HS season, there are college showcases through the summer and late spring. Top Schools College coaches are sitting at DA/ECNL activities anyways, so a video of the game and a schedule of the players games would do, so if a college coach wants that player badly based on the video provided, that college coach will make the effort to go watch a game or 2. But because things had been facilitated so much for college coaches your points in regards to exposition at pay per play are valid and forces parents to play Thanksgiving tournaments. The customer always have control of the situation.


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## coachsamy (May 30, 2018)

outside! said:


> Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.
> 
> CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.


Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.

The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?

Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them? What about attending a summer or late spring college ID? Winter ID are cool only for places where the weather varies from Socal, other than that is mostly a winter money grab. 

Finally go find a shark lawyer and sue because you do have a case against CIF, don't wait until you win the lotto, by then you won't care enough.


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## Eagle33 (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Thank you for clarifying your point and making excellent points based on your experience. As this is a complex issue with so many variables, opinions, we would disagree with many points, however I do believe that most of us as parents share a common goal of seeing our children succeed in life and do better than we did.
> 
> Any club soccer activity such as CRL, tournaments, ID Camps, etc. that have surface during HS season need to move around to appease their customer which are the kids playing in HS. CRL I believe does their olders around HS season, there are college showcases through the summer and late spring. Top Schools College coaches are sitting at DA/ECNL activities anyways, so a video of the game and a schedule of the players games would do, so if a college coach wants that player badly based on the video provided, that college coach will make the effort to go watch a game or 2. But because things had been facilitated so much for college coaches your points in regards to exposition at pay per play are valid and forces parents to play Thanksgiving tournaments. The customer always have control of the situation.


I've personally seen more than few college coaches at HS games


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## SocalPapa (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them?


ID camps are scheduled when coaches are available.  High school soccer seasons vary around the country, as do the rules for playing concurrently in club/high school.  Per this article, as of 2011, 26 states had no prohibition whatsoever on playing club sports concurrently with the same sport in high school.  https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/22/cif-addresses-ban-on-club-sports-participation-during-school-season/


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## coachsamy (May 30, 2018)

SocalPapa said:


> ID camps are scheduled when coaches are available.  High school soccer seasons vary around the country, as do the rules for playing concurrently in club/high school.  Per this article, as of 2011, 26 states had no prohibition whatsoever on playing club sports concurrently with the same sport in high school.  https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/22/cif-addresses-ban-on-club-sports-participation-during-school-season/


That would be interesting if it happens!

This weekend Legends Showcase has listed quite a great list of college coaches going to that tournament. I wonder if non-DA teams will get just the attention of Norco College and Grampling State or the powerhouses will take a look at all the brackets to try to dig for hidden gems.


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## Surfref (May 30, 2018)

outside! said:


> Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.
> 
> CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.


That field at RB HS is insanely small.  By far the narrowist in SD.  As for the refs, the majority of Hs refs are also club refs.  The HS ref association does a better job of matching the right refs to the right game.  Sometimes us refs just have a bad game.


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## Surfref (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.
> 
> The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?
> 
> ...


Outside and I took the same approach to the winter ID camps and had our daughters attend the camps and either skip the HS season or part of it.  Worked out great for both girls since they have and will play college soccer with scholarship $$$$$.

There are a bunch fields in SD that are either very narrow, short or both.  San Ysidro is one of the better fields.


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## espola (May 30, 2018)

DefndrDad said:


> What is the 20 contest rule? Is that the number of games a high school can play in a season? Because many play more than that.


Tournaments only count as 2 games each, no matter how many are played, and post-season playoffs (Section and State) don't count at all.  It's not hard for a good team to get to 29 games.


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## espola (May 30, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.
> 
> The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?
> 
> ...


Rancho Bernardo, according to the coaches' grapevine, deliberately built the soccer field narrow and short (100 x 57 yards) for a home-field advantage.


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## timbuck (May 30, 2018)

Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
My kids aren’t in HS yet-  but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.


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## Eagle33 (May 31, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
> My kids aren’t in HS yet-  but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.


Playing over Thanksgiving has nothing to do with player's age. During Thanksgiving You either let your player play or you don't.


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
> My kids aren’t in HS yet-  but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.


Unlikely.  State Cup starting and finishing is dictated by the number of teams that enter and field space (preference for complexes).  The HS aged olders (Governors Cup) don't get started until mid April.  Technically, HS playoffs are over by first week of March.

Shifting soccer up a few weeks isn't going to change the Cal South field space problem.


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## timbuck (May 31, 2018)

Probably a much broader question, but here goes -  Why is soccer a winter sport in So Cal?  Why not make it a Spring high school sport?
Club runs through fall with State Cup wrapped up for all age groups by end of February.  High School kids play in Spring.  Younger kids do their Spring friendlies, Spring leagues and tournaments.
Does this announced change only impact soccer?
Is this CIF's way of saying "screw you club soccer.  You took your DA players out of our competition, so now we are going to make life a bit more challenging for your coaches and players."


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## MWN (May 31, 2018)

No, the change does not only impact soccer.  CIF changed dates for many programs (fall through spring): https://www.noozhawk.com/article/prep_seasons_will_start_end_earlier_in_2018_19

Soccer is a winter sports in So Cal because Football is a fall sport (nobody is changing this) and Track/Field and Lacrosse are Spring sports.  If soccer were to move to Spring then Track/Field and Lacrosse would need to switch to Winter.  Consider that schools generally only have 1 field/stadium.  Teams need to practice and share resources.  Football uses the fields/stadium almost exclusively in Fall.  Football is the 800 pound gorilla because it makes money (sort of) for the schools.  Once football ends, soccer (boys and girls need practice field and game space) which is exactly the same spot for most schools that football just left.  Once soccer ends, the track and field and lacrosse teams need field space, which is the exact spot that soccer just vacated.  In fact, its not unusual to be playing a JV soccer game in the stadium and have the track and field team on the track warming up/practicing (an annoyance).  

Because soccer can be played in the rain with little danger, whereas, track and field should not (more dangerous with certain events) ... winter it is.


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## Fact (May 31, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Probably a much broader question, but here goes -  Why is soccer a winter sport in So Cal?  Why not make it a Spring high school sport?
> Club runs through fall with State Cup wrapped up for all age groups by end of February.  High School kids play in Spring.  Younger kids do their Spring friendlies, Spring leagues and tournaments.
> Does this announced change only impact soccer?
> Is this CIF's way of saying "screw you club soccer.  You took your DA players out of our competition, so now we are going to make life a bit more challenging for your coaches and players."


Soccer was a winter sport for HS So Cal long before anyone even knew about club soccer.


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## OBkicks (May 31, 2018)

espola said:


> Tournaments only count as 2 games each, no matter how many are played, and post-season playoffs (Section and State) don't count at all.  It's not hard for a good team to get to 29 games.


Actually just this month, new rules were put in place regarding HS contests. The 20 point system and tournaments counting as “2 points” is no longer in San Diego. Now schools have a maximum of 28 contests and each tournament game will count as 1 point or contest. It may change some tourney formats, but for now schools attending tournaments will have to allow for a minimum # of their games to be used for the tournament or cancel later scheduled games. For example: if a school enters a tournament with a minimum guarantee of 3 games and they do not allow for a possible semi final or even final, and they advance; they will have to cancel non league games scheduled at a later date (if their schedule is full). OR if they allow for 4 or 5 games, and do not advance, they will have 2 openings to either schedule additional games later, or not.


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## mirage (May 31, 2018)

MWN said:


> ....Soccer is a winter sports in So Cal...........Football uses the fields/stadium almost exclusively in Fall.  Football is the 800 pound gorilla because it makes money (sort of) for the schools.  Once football ends, soccer (boys and girls need practice field and game space) which is exactly the same spot for most schools that football just left.............


I know this sounds so intuitive but how do NoCal schools and most of the country's high schools do it in the fall?  Soccer is a fall sports in the vast majority of the country - the same time as football.

If we moved our soccer to fall, we could actually have a state championship game between north and south - just like football.  And, kids can play soccer-basketball-baseball at high school.

The field availability is an easy excuse to use but it can be made to work.  Many schools have both fields anyway between the practice field and game field.


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## espola (May 31, 2018)

mirage said:


> I know this sounds so intuitive but how do NoCal schools and most of the country's high schools do it in the fall?  Soccer is a fall sports in the vast majority of the country - the same time as football.
> 
> If we moved our soccer to fall, we could actually have a state championship game between north and south - just like football.  And, kids can play soccer-basketball-baseball at high school.
> 
> The field availability is an easy excuse to use but it can be made to work.  Many schools have both fields anyway between the practice field and game field.


Norcal had playoffs this year in early March, the same time as southern Cal.  The only thing stopping a state championship is will (and perhaps a sponsor).

http://www.cifstate.org/sports/soccer/NorCal_brkts_2018/bd1


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## MWN (Jun 1, 2018)

mirage said:


> I know this sounds so intuitive but how do NoCal schools and most of the country's high schools do it in the fall?  Soccer is a fall sports in the vast majority of the country - the same time as football.
> 
> If we moved our soccer to fall, we could actually have a state championship game between north and south - just like football.  And, kids can play soccer-basketball-baseball at high school.
> 
> The field availability is an easy excuse to use but it can be made to work.  Many schools have both fields anyway between the practice field and game field.


As @espola stated, NorCal does not play in fall.  Soccer is a winter sport in all of California.  SoCal and NorCal sports basically track throughout California (http://www.cifstate.org/governance/Playoff_Calendar.pdf).  In California the CIF has a rule that prohibits simultaneous club/CIF play.  In other parts of the country that isn't the case.

You are correct, it can be balanced.  Football will always get Friday night.  Soccer would just get other nights.   While most of the nation places HS soccer in the fall (due to inclement weather issues), the Sunbelt states generally make it a Winter sport because we can and its helps with allocating field resources and the kids have additional athletic opportunities.  I for one enjoy the fact that my son a GK has the opportunity to also play football in fall and lacrosse in spring if he so chooses.


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## timbuck (Jun 1, 2018)

I grew up in the midwest.  High School soccer was a fall sport.  Same as football.  The teams played in the same stadium.  Varsity soccer games were played on Thursday.  Varsity football on Friday.  JV played away when varsity played home. 
We had one kid who played soccer and football. He was the football kicker.


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## MFranco (Jun 1, 2018)

As a HS & Club coach. The main issue will be starting league before Christmas Break. It makes it hard to schedule pre-season games and tournaments with league starting in December but you adjust. We didn't schedule any preseason games before Thanksgiving to give anyone a chance to play showcases without missing a HS game.

 CRL caused some issues in the past when it went into December for olders but you work with what you have. I always tell our players that their first priority is Club since that started in Fall and once they are finished then they start up with HS. They do come to practices but with limited work as to not burn them out. I know a lot of club coaches who run their girls to death at the end of the fall seasons because they NEED that win to finish at the top of league or CRL. People say HS gets players injured but most of our girls come into HS already injured. Some don't even get to play until the end of the season because of injuries.

Simple solution for a HS coach. Don't schedule anything before Thanksgiving just because CIF allows you to start earlier now. If you are concerned about not having your team then schedule games later and maybe not as many. 28 games are allowed but they really don't need to play that many games in 3 months.


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## mirage (Jun 1, 2018)

MWN said:


> As @espola stated, NorCal does not play in fall.  Soccer is a winter sport in all of California.  SoCal and NorCal sports basically track throughout California (http://www.cifstate.org/governance/Playoff_Calendar.pdf).


He never stated that the season was in the fall.  Just the playoffs.  The NorCal HS season is in the fall with the playoffs moved to the winter for the first time this year.


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## espola (Jun 1, 2018)

mirage said:


> He never stated that the season was in the fall.  Just the playoffs.  The NorCal HS season is in the fall with the playoffs moved to the winter for the first time this year.


Really?

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/montgomery-vikings-(santa-rosa,ca)/soccer-winter/schedule.htm

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/mcclatchy-lions-(sacramento,ca)/soccer-winter/schedule.htm

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/davis-blue-devils-(davis,ca)/soccer-winter/schedule.htm


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## forsomuch (Jun 1, 2018)

MFranco said:


> As a HS & Club coach. The main issue will be starting league before Christmas Break. It makes it hard to schedule pre-season games and tournaments with league starting in December but you adjust. We didn't schedule any preseason games before Thanksgiving to give anyone a chance to play showcases without missing a HS game.
> 
> CRL caused some issues in the past when it went into December for olders but you work with what you have. I always tell our players that their first priority is Club since that started in Fall and once they are finished then they start up with HS. They do come to practices but with limited work as to not burn them out. I know a lot of club coaches who run their girls to death at the end of the fall seasons because they NEED that win to finish at the top of league or CRL. People say HS gets players injured but most of our girls come into HS already injured. Some don't even get to play until the end of the season because of injuries.
> 
> Simple solution for a HS coach. Don't schedule anything before Thanksgiving just because CIF allows you to start earlier now. If you are concerned about not having your team then schedule games later and maybe not as many. 28 games are allowed but they really don't need to play that many games in 3 months.


Are you sure you are a coach? This sounds way to reasonable.


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