# Stop the "Guesting down" nonsense



## Riggins (Oct 17, 2019)

I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!

My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players". 

I'd love to see a policy where guests have to come from the same or lower flight. This means these kids are given a chance to try the next level, be challenged, but also the receiving team is given a sub so not short sided. Only if the club has no other even or lower flight team can you pull a guest from one level above. Otherwise, sorry, play without a sub or short handed.

It's only fair.


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## Frank (Oct 17, 2019)

When did fair ever get involved at SCDSL.   They have the league exactly the way the DOC's from those major clubs want it.  That's one of the reasons why they left CSL was to have their own rules.


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## jpeter (Oct 17, 2019)

Frank said:


> When did fair ever get involved at SCDSL.   They have the league exactly the way the DOC's from those major clubs want it.  That's one of the reasons why they left CSL was to have their own rules.


At least CSL is considered enough to have a no play down rule.  Same level or below if you're guesting.  

SCDSL and Cal South should do them same, that ST/NT cup nonsense where teams can play down on appeal is just a recipe for those that seek to game the system.


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## dad4 (Oct 17, 2019)

Frank said:


> When did fair ever get involved at SCDSL.   They have the league exactly the way the DOC's from those major clubs want it.  That's one of the reasons why they left CSL was to have their own rules.


It isn't just SCDSL.  Guesting down is a problem all over.

I no longer allow my daughter to guest down.  It steals a game from the kids on the lower team.   
Not just minutes, but touches.  Lower team players touch the ball a lot less when upper team players are guesting.


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## soccerchaffeur (Oct 17, 2019)

I just saw it last week where a top 09 team used a guest from a flight 1 08 team.  The gal wasn't even from the same club.  Same 'family' of clubs but not the same club.  I suppose I can see if you needed an extra player, but they already had 3 subs of their own. 
I also remember last season seeing a flight 2 06 team use some of their clubs ECNL gals during the playoffs.  Their bench was stocked with subs.  I think these are both examples of telling the rest of your team that they're not good enough and winning is your top priority.


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## espola (Oct 17, 2019)

dad4 said:


> It isn't just SCDSL.  Guesting down is a problem all over.
> 
> I no longer allow my daughter to guest down.  It steals a game from the kids on the lower team.
> Not just minutes, but touches.  Lower team players touch the ball a lot less when upper team players are guesting.


Even if their team has the ball more than they would have without the guest?


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## tjinaz (Oct 17, 2019)

Don't agree.  What if you have a player coming back from injury or suffering a loss of confidence.  They should just "gut it out" on their higher level team or do you send them down for a bit to recover and get their mojo back?  There is a valid purpose for guesting down but it seems it is not being used as intended.  This is how it works in pro sports for "conditioning assignments" don't see why it can't be used here just needs to be limited.


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## dad4 (Oct 17, 2019)

espola said:


> Even if their team has the ball more than they would have without the guest?


Yes.  

my kid is a 2010- 7v7.  It is easy for one or two players to take over a game.  The lower skill kids on both teams never touch the ball.

Even at higher levels, I wouldn't do it except to help correct a complete mismatch.


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## timbuck (Oct 17, 2019)

soccerchaffeur said:


> I just saw it last week where a top 09 team used a guest from a flight 1 08 team.  The gal wasn't even from the same club.  Same 'family' of clubs but not the same club.  I suppose I can see if you needed an extra player, but they already had 3 subs of their own.
> I also remember last season seeing a flight 2 06 team use some of their clubs ECNL gals during the playoffs.  Their bench was stocked with subs.  I think these are both examples of telling the rest of your team that they're not good enough and winning is your top priority.


This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality.  And they think that winning helps with recruiting.  The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway.  So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team.  And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.

Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality.  Good luck.  Not many out there.


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## Riggins (Oct 17, 2019)

I can see the need to play down if you are coming back from injury, and that probably is a valid case in the older age groups. But, in the youngers it makes no sense. The gap in skill between divisions is often monstrous. A top F2 team maybe not even be close to competitive with many of the existing F1 teams. But yes, when you are of HS age that might be a valid reason. Let them play down one division -- with a doctors note.


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## Justafan (Oct 17, 2019)

tjinaz said:


> Don't agree.  What if you have a player coming back from injury or suffering a loss of confidence.  They should just "gut it out" on their higher level team or do you send them down for a bit to recover and get their mojo back?  There is a valid purpose for guesting down but it seems it is not being used as intended.  This is how it works in pro sports for "conditioning assignments" don't see why it can't be used here just needs to be limited.


That never happens.  99.99% of all guesting down (and guesting in general) is to help the team win, period.  Even when a team needs guests because they have injuries and have no subs, it’s always the best players available who get that first call/opportunity to guest.


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## Emma (Oct 17, 2019)

We lost to a team in the finals of a tournament with at least 3 guest players from a higher level team.  Didn't care that we lost.  Glad the kids all came out to play and they learned a lot from the higher level kids.  If a coach is doing this at every tournament and every league game, I would worry about playing time but if it's only a few games, it's not a bad thing if you're not concerned about wins and losses.


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## Riggins (Oct 17, 2019)

In the older divisions wins and loses are a bit more important. Since SCDSL got rid of the "Showcase weekend" we now only get the extra two games if you place in the top two of your division. So, even though the game shouldn't be all about winning, your team literally is getting less games and therefore less for the money if you aren't one of the top two.


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## Sokrplayer75 (Oct 17, 2019)

Riggins said:


> I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!
> 
> My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players".
> 
> ...





timbuck said:


> This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality.  And they think that winning helps with recruiting.  The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway.  So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team.  And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.
> 
> Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality.  Good luck.  Not many out there.


Valid points across the board. Some clubs/coaches also guest their top F1 age group player(s) in league play on their F2 and F3 teams too, regardless of amount of subs. Therefore, taking the development away from F2 and F3 kids. Win at all costs attitude across all flights, and to satisfy parents of the top kids.

Unfortunately that's the way it is. Hoping that can change one day.


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## Poconos (Oct 17, 2019)

my daughter did this for a couple tournaments on the theory that the team had a shallow bench and needed the help.  the 2nd time, we get there and they had 14 players for a 9 v 9.  needless to say i felt bad for those other girls who practiced hard and their parents who paid to get them game time experience.  left a real bad taste in my mouth.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 17, 2019)

Why not just scrap all guest player options? Form a team at the start of the season; if you don't have enough players, don't form the team. If you get injuries, while I appreciate that is a difficult situation, use it as a way to help the players and team grow. Last season our B03 team played many games (including State Cup semi-final and final) with 10 players due to an outrageous injury list. They definitely came out of it a much closer-knit group (which is generally what happens when people go through hardship together). 

I remember playing for the same club for years as a kid and we never borrowed anyone because we couldn't. If you didn't have enough players, tough shit. You played with what you had and worked harder to make up for it. 

This is yet another contributing factor to why so many kids are not developing the resilience and toughness they need to prepare for life as adults. We 'fix' way too much shit for them.


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## Mom Taxi (Oct 17, 2019)

Riggins said:


> I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!
> 
> My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players".
> 
> ...


Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure in CSL when teams club pass players those players can only play up. Players who play at a higher level cannot be club passed to a lower level.


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## Paul Spacey (Oct 17, 2019)

Mom Taxi said:


> Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure in CSL when teams club pass players those players can only play up. Players who play at a higher level cannot be club passed to a lower level.


that is correct but there is an easy way around it (that is used frequently). Roster your higher level players to the lower level team official roster; then they can play up every week for the higher level team and on occasion when the lower level team need or want them, they are effectively not playing 'down'.

Often a workaround for most rules. Solution? Remove the guest player option. Either you're on the official roster or you're not. This can be fixed for the duration of fall league season.


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## espola (Oct 17, 2019)

timbuck said:


> This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality.  And they think that winning helps with recruiting.  The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway.  So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team.  And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.
> 
> Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality.  Good luck.  Not many out there.


"Club first" is so European.

How are those multiple smaller countries doing on the world soccer stage?


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## socalkdg (Oct 17, 2019)

We guest all the time.  With our own club for league play we guested up to 01 premier (CSL) last year and this year(she is an 05 player),  her current club is gold.   We also guest two games for our own age with a silver team for a friendly tourney during the summer.   We have also guest played with two other clubs in tourneys, same age, same level.  My daughter is a goal keeper, and it seems teams can't find enough goal keepers, so we guest to get her more experience and to help others out.  For league it should always be that you can only play up, either by age, or level.   This should apply to State Cup as well.   Others are correct in that you can not play at a lower level in CSL, only up, and only player that can play twice in the same day is a keeper.  I'd venture to say that all other Tourneys would be mostly fair game.


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## Venantsyo (Oct 17, 2019)

Paul Spacey said:


> that is correct but there is an easy way around it (that is used frequently). Roster your higher level players to the lower level team official roster; then they can play up every week for the higher level team and on occasion when the lower level team need or want them, they are effectively not playing 'down'.


While this is technically true, I'd venture to say that the guesting-down issue in CSL is probably 1/1000th of what it currently is in SCDSL.  Particularly because the up/down guest option was one of the staple ideas at the base of the foundation of SCDSL. It is clearly a rule designed by and for big Clubs with multiple teams for each age group as well as multiple franchises.


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## Sockers858 (Oct 17, 2019)

CLUB PASS RULES – Presidio Soccer and SDDA Leagues

(Updated 20190904)
1. A player must be Club Passed by midnight the Wednesday prior to the game.
2. A player can play as a Club Pass player with the Club Pass Team on either Saturday or
Sunday and play the other day with his original team. Player cannot play on both teams on
the same day.
3. Players can be Club Passed in both Presidio circuits and SDDA Flights.
4. Limit of three (3) players to be Club Passed to the same team on each weekend of play.
5. Limit of three (3) times each individual player can be Club Passed during seasonal play.
6. Club Pass movement can only be an UPWARD MOVEMENT. (As Defined Below)
Presidio Circuits:

• Presidio Lower Circuit to Higher Presidio Circuit or to any SDDA Flight.
• AA-C to AA-B, to AA-A to AAA, or to any SDDA Flight
• AA-B to AA-A, to AAA, or to any SDDA Flight
• AA-A to AAA, or to any SDDA Flight
• AAA to any SDDA Flight
• Younger age Circuit to any level Presidio or SDDA Older age Circuit (Playing Up)
• Not allowed – Presidio Circuit to same Presidio Circuit (Same Level Movement or
Lower)

SDDA Flights:
• SDDA Flight 2 to Flight 1
• Flight 2 Gold to Flight 1
• Flight 2 Blue to Flight 1 or Flight 2 Gold
• SDDA Younger age Flight to SDDA older age Flight. (Playing Up)
• Not allowed – SDDA Flight to same SDDA Flight (Same Level Movement or Lower)
• Not Allowed – SDDA teams to any Presidio teams even in higher age brackets


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## Dirtnap (Oct 18, 2019)

Just look at the bracket standings so far. nothing makes sense for most of them. for instance, in my DD team bracket how does the last- place team tie or beat the first-place team and outplay them .last-place team is 0-7 with only 2 Goals for. first place team is 7-0 with 28 Goals for. yep they tied. just makes you say Hmm?


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## timbuck (Oct 18, 2019)

Sockers858 said:


> CLUB PASS RULES – Presidio Soccer and SDDA Leagues
> 
> (Updated 20190904)
> 1. A player must be Club Passed by midnight the Wednesday prior to the game.
> ...


I like that presidio policy. 
But can someone please explain how they name their brackets?   SDDA, Presidio, Aa-A

Why is there a separate presidio and SDDA Group?  Why not just make it one league with various levels?


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## watfly (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Why is there a separate presidio and SDDA Group?  Why not just make it one league with various levels?


Because SDDA is a development league, so it's way different than regular Presidio .  Basically it was a marketing response to other "development" leagues like SCDSL and DA.  SDDA even has its own website to explaining how different it is and why its all about development...oops, no, looks like its website is gone now.

https://www.soccertoday.com/presidio-soccer-league-and-sdda/


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## outside! (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I like that presidio policy.
> But can someone please explain how they name their brackets?   SDDA, Presidio, Aa-A
> 
> Why is there a separate presidio and SDDA Group?  Why not just make it one league with various levels?


SDDA was Presidio's response to the formation of SCDSL. It is basically just the higher levels of Presidio. Levels go something like this:
SDDA-1, SDDA-2 Gold, SDDA-2 Blue, AAA, AA-A, AA-B, AA-C.


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## timbuck (Oct 18, 2019)

So SDDA is higher competition than Presidio?
Do teams try to get promoted from one to the other?
Is there a difference in cost to play in SDDA vs Presidio?
Does one require more travel?

And why did they feel the need to "respond" to SCDSL?  Maybe when SCDSL was first "invented", it sounded like a great idea.  I'd say that the league now is not what any other league should be trying to emulate.


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## Emma (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I like that presidio policy.
> But can someone please explain how they name their brackets?   SDDA, Presidio, Aa-A
> 
> Why is there a separate presidio and SDDA Group?  Why not just make it one league with various levels?


It is one league with various levels.  Instead of calling it Discovery, Champions or Europa, it's SDDA 1 and 2.  Then flight 3 starts in Presidio.  2010 and younger all start in Presidio naming convention.  The naming conventions for all the leagues are a little strange bc they're afraid to hurt parents' feelings or pride (not sure the kids are).  Everything has to seem like it's at the highest level or close to it.  We've sat thru enough sidelines to learn that it really matters to parents.  Leagues and DOCs are just trying to please parents in order to continue receiving their checks.  If you create enough confusion through the naming convention, no one will know which is the highest and the lowest flight.  DA, ECNL, ECRL, DPL, NPL, NPL West, and a few more that I don't know, they do it with the leagues too.


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## Eagle33 (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> So SDDA is higher competition than Presidio?
> Do teams try to get promoted from one to the other?
> Is there a difference in cost to play in SDDA vs Presidio?
> Does one require more travel?
> ...


Originally SCDSL was created to accommodate big clubs who wanted to have more than 3 teams per age group and get away from promotion/relegation model.


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## timbuck (Oct 18, 2019)

Eagle33 said:


> Originally SCDSL was created to accommodate big clubs who wanted to have more than 3 teams per age group and get away from promotion/relegation model.


Yep. But that was before Girls DA, ECNL2, and DPL came on the scene.  Now those "big clubs" have moved their top teams away from the league that they created.


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## espola (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I like that presidio policy.
> But can someone please explain how they name their brackets?   SDDA, Presidio, Aa-A
> 
> Why is there a separate presidio and SDDA Group?  Why not just make it one league with various levels?


Presidio circuits still adhere, at least in principle, to the older promotion/relegation rules.   Back in the day, Premier was the top Presidio level, and usually the bottom two teams would drop down to AAA and the top 2 AAA teams would be promoted to Premier after every playing season.  Below those were AA-A, AA-B, and AA-C.  There was also an A circuit, composed of older rec teams on a county-wide basis since most clubs couldn't field enough rec teams after about age 13 to make up a playing circuit.

After observing the launch of SCSDSL in revolt against CSL's rigid rules, Presidio clubs created SDDA to operate in a similar way, absorbing the old Premier level into it, and allowing coaches and DOCs to decide at which level each of their teams would compete.


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## Calisoccer11 (Oct 18, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> This should apply to State Cup as well.


I don't think you are allowed to be on more than one roster for State Cup.  Maybe there is a way around it since usually Governor's starts before President's and National rolls out later??


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## Bubba (Oct 18, 2019)

Eagle33 said:


> Originally SCDSL was created to accommodate big clubs who wanted to have more than 3 teams per age group and get away from promotion/relegation model.


Also remember that Coast Soccer League threaten to kick out any club that did not play their top teams in the league. That was during the DA and ECNL were forming.


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## carla hinkle (Oct 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> So SDDA is higher competition than Presidio?
> Do teams try to get promoted from one to the other?
> Is there a difference in cost to play in SDDA vs Presidio?
> Does one require more travel?
> ...



SDDA really is just the top divisions of Presidio. As far as I can tell, it’s just one big league. Both are (I think) all of San Diego County. I don’t think the cost is different (although for some reason I don’t understand, SDDA teams play a 10 game season and Presidio teams play 12). Roughly teams do get promoted/relegated between all the levels from year to year, although it’s not a strict system and I think coaches/clubs can request a certain placement. At the older ages (once DA/ECNL kicks in), the top flights (SDDA) are really more like 2nd & 3rd flights, depending on where a particular club’s top team is playing.


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## socalkdg (Oct 18, 2019)

Calisoccer11 said:


> I don't think you are allowed to be on more than one roster for State Cup.  Maybe there is a way around it since usually Governor's starts before President's and National rolls out later??


If a player is on a higher team and that team decides not to play state cup, then that player(or players) ends up on another roster, possibly at a lower level.  I'd prefer the same rosters from the same team be the ones that compete at State or National level.


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## SocalPapa (Oct 22, 2019)

The Rebels G02/01 SCDSL teams have to be one of the worst offenders at this "guesting down" phenomenon.  They've got a great Discovery team.  6-0 so far with a +21 goal differential.  Good for them.  But field players, by rule, cannot play two SCDSL games in the same day.  On days when the Rebels' Europa team's games have conflicted with the Discovery games, the Europa team is 0-2 with a minus 5 goal differential (both shutouts).  For the 5 other games that didn't conflict the "Europa" team is 5-0 with a plus 20 goal differential. 

It seems the Rebels are basically playing the same good team at two different competition levels this season.  And it's not a coincidence or a matter of their opponents.  For one match, held on a day that conflicted with Discovery, the Rebels lost to a Europa team 0-2.  They then beat that same exact Europa team 8-0 when they played later in the season on a non-conflict day.

It all seems kinda pointless because, by rule, they won't be able to use their Discovery players for the playoffs.  Perhaps they are trying to make their club look stronger and deeper than they are, but everyone I've talked to about this situation is just embarrassed for them and their players.


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## Banana Hammock (Oct 22, 2019)

SocalPapa said:


> The Rebels G02/01 SCDSL teams have to be one of the worst offenders at this "guesting down" phenomenon.  They've got a great Discovery team.  6-0 so far with a +21 goal differential.  Good for them.  But field players, by rule, cannot play two SCDSL games in the same day.  On days when the Rebels' Europa team's games have conflicted with the Discovery games, the Europa team is 0-2 with a minus 5 goal differential (both shutouts).  For the 5 other games that didn't conflict the "Europa" team is 5-0 with a plus 20 goal differential.
> 
> It seems the Rebels are basically playing the same good team at two different competition levels this season.  And it's not a coincidence or a matter of their opponents.  For one match, held on a day that conflicted with Discovery, the Rebels lost to a Europa team 0-2.  They then beat that same exact Europa team 8-0 when they played later in the season on a non-conflict day.
> 
> It all seems kinda pointless because, by rule, they won't be able to use their Discovery players for the playoffs.  Perhaps they are trying to make their club look stronger and deeper than they are, but everyone I've talked to about this situation is just embarrassed for them and their players.


Surf B03 discovery did the same thing last year.  Difference being that neither team was any good.


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## SageMajor (Oct 22, 2019)

My kids both have guested down, but I always check to make sure that if we go the bench is still low.  so for an 11v11 game we would not go if my DD was the 15th player (with 2 keepers) or 14.  For 9v9 its us becoming the 11th player, if we would be number 12 its not fair to go play unless its to be the goalie.  Last week we guested down and the team played with no subs.   This is where guesting down is helpful.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 23, 2019)

carla hinkle said:


> I don’t think the cost is different (although for some reason I don’t understand, SDDA teams play a 10 game season and Presidio teams play 12).


SDDA is more $$ and has 2 "showcase" games after season,  so play 12 as well.


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