# Flight 1



## Jamisfoes (Oct 10, 2022)

Do teams currently in flight 1 have an advantage in recruiting? Meaning more players come to their tryout, getting better players to show up. Are they less likely to lose core players?


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## focomoso (Oct 10, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Do teams currently in flight 1 have an advantage in recruiting? Meaning more players come to their tryout, getting better players to show up. Are they less likely to lose core players?


In my experience, no. League levels help, but on the boys side, except for LAFC and Galaxy, every team is vulnerable to having their best players recruited away (by LAFC or Galaxy, or MLS Next, or ECNL, or a better flight 1 team). Just because a team is considered good, doesn't mean people (read parents) aren't on the lookout for something (they think is) better.

What makes helps recruiting the most is the coach. Kids (and parents) will stay with a great coach at a lower level longer even than is good for them. (The really great coaches will encourage their better players to search for opportunities higher up if they think it'll help them develop.)


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 10, 2022)

focomoso said:


> In my experience, no. League levels help, but on the boys side, except for LAFC and Galaxy, every team is vulnerable to having their best players recruited away (by LAFC or Galaxy, or MLS Next, or ECNL, or a better flight 1 team). Just because a team is considered good, doesn't mean people (read parents) aren't on the lookout for something (they think is) better.
> 
> What makes helps recruiting the most is the coach. Kids (and parents) will stay with a great coach at a lower level longer even than is good for them. (The really great coaches will encourage their better players to search for opportunities higher up if they think it'll help them develop.)


I am taking about youngers where flight 1 is the highest level.


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## VanMan (Oct 10, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Do teams currently in flight 1 have an advantage in recruiting? Meaning more players come to their tryout, getting better players to show up. Are they less likely to lose core players?





Jamisfoes said:


> I am taking about youngers where flight 1 is the highest level.


I'd argue success is what creates buzz and roster stability, if it is at the highest level then even more so.  Getting smoked at Flight 1 is likely to yield more roster turnover (to other flight 1 teams that are doing well) than doing well in Flight 2.


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## focomoso (Oct 10, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I am taking about youngers where flight 1 is the highest level.


Doesn't pre-ECNL start at 9 now? Same with LAFC and Galaxy. Younger than that, the only thing that matters is the coach. In a few years most of the kids will quit soccer altogether, so focus on finding the best coach you can.


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## VanMan (Oct 10, 2022)

focomoso said:


> Doesn't pre-ECNL start at 9 now? Same with LAFC and Galaxy. Younger than that, the only thing that matters is the coach. In a few years most of the kids will quit soccer altogether, so focus on finding the best coach you can.


Yeah, some of the clubs are throwing that in the team names, but I don't think it means a whole lot.  There are a couple of "Pre ECNL II" teams playing flight 3 in the younger age groups.  Feels like an ECNL brand awareness exercise more than anything else.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 10, 2022)

VanMan said:


> I'd argue success is what creates buzz and roster stability, if it is at the highest level then even more so.  Getting smoked at Flight 1 is likely to yield more roster turnover (to other flight 1 teams that are doing well) than doing well in Flight 2.


My kid was on a flight 2 team his first year of playing club. It seems every season they lose a core player. The team is perpetually flight 2 because they are always 1-2 players from being a flight 1 team. We ended up leaving too.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 10, 2022)

VanMan said:


> I'd argue success is what creates buzz and roster stability, if it is at the highest level then even more so.  Getting smoked at Flight 1 is likely to yield more roster turnover (to other flight 1 teams that are doing well) than doing well in Flight 2.


I would argue doing well in flight 2 means nothing. The best players will leave for flight 1 teams.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 10, 2022)

Let's say you have a flight 1 team that gets smoked. The players aren't going to look for a flight 2 team to jump ship. And the fact they got smoked, maybe 1-3 players on the team can realistically move to another flight 1 team and keep the same playing time. A good flight 1 team is only going to take a player if you are significantly better than the starter they already have. 
But if the coach decides they are moving to flight 2 next season since they got killed so badly. That's when people will jump ship because nobody wants to go backwards.


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## VanMan (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> My kid was on a flight 2 team his first year of playing club. It seems every season they lose a core player. The team is perpetually flight 2 because they are always 1-2 players from being a flight 1 team. We ended up leaving too.





Jamisfoes said:


> I would argue doing well in flight 2 means nothing. The best players will leave for flight 1 teams.


Depends on the situation, starting with the coach/club and ending with social dynamics between parents and players.  If there are 1/2/a few kids who are head and shoulders above the rest that are carrying the team, then yes, it makes sense for those kids to leave and they most likely will unless there's a strong social bond and/or coach has a clear development path for the high performing player(s) and team that's been well articulated.  



Jamisfoes said:


> Let's say you have a flight 1 team that gets smoked. The players aren't going to look for a flight 2 team to jump ship. And the fact they got smoked, maybe 1-3 players on the team can realistically move to another flight 1 team and keep the same playing time. A good flight 1 team is only going to take a player if you are significantly better than the starter they already have.
> But if the coach decides they are moving to flight 2 next season since they got killed so badly. That's when people will jump ship because nobody wants to go backwards.


Even if that flight 1 team doesn't move down, parents will look to move their kids because getting smoked sucks and all the finger pointing at coach and other kids that starts in that situation erodes the fabric of the team.  That being said, most of those parents who start looking for a flight 1 team to move to would probably be in for a rude awakening when offers from those flight 1 teams don't come because their kids aren't flight 1 talent (or the team would have fared better in league in the first place, unless it was a coaching issue).

In the situation being discussed, the team would have been better off playing in flight 2 to begin with.  If they do well/win most of their games the message should be put out there by the coach/club that the intent is to move to Flight 1 the following year, which should help retain the better players and attract other players from competing teams looking to move up.  Then it comes down to delivering on that.


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## Grace T. (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> My kid was on a flight 2 team his first year of playing club. It seems every season they lose a core player. The team is perpetually flight 2 because they are always 1-2 players from being a flight 1 team. We ended up leaving too.


Yup this happened with my kid's flight 3 team that he was with for 3 years to start.  It was very developmentally focused: possession game, short on the goalkicks, passing game in the middle, discouraged long balls and footraces except when appropriate, coach really focused on developing all the players.  One of the best coaches he ever had.  But every year the best 1-2 players would leave because the team fell 1-2 positions short in Coast of getting the promotion.  New players would be recruited.  Some were good, but they'd have to be developed, and particularly if they were in key positions, the team had to start from scratch.

That's the benefits of having an MLS/ECNL/EA/GA/Elite 64 team...you'll get good players recruited from other teams because you have the name and don't have to build anything.  Even if you get put on the worst MLS Next team, the player uses that experience to later on trade up for another team.

The issue is, as focomoso points out, the pre-MLS, pre-ECNL teams have gotten younger and younger, so except for the very youngest, flight 1 really isn't flight 1 anymore.  As you get into middle school, on the boys side it's more like flight 5 (after MLS Academies, MLS/ECNL, EA/ECRL/Elite 64, NPL/EA2).  The other issue is you've got a lot of teams placed not competitively as a result because the sorting isn't good: e.g., girls lack a true elite league so the competition across ECNL is very broad, you had some teams like Socal Elite in NPL last year that just tore up the competition and should be playing MLS Next but they have been locked out, you have some Strikers teams that could be playing the MLS Academy levels but the MLS Academies are blocking those teams off into separate leagues.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 11, 2022)

This is the problem with small club coach selling development. They think they have a few years to develope. But they really have only one year. People don't have the patience to stick around. Best players will get poached. When they leave, you have to start over.


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## Grace T. (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> This is the problem with small club coach selling development. They think they have a few years to develope. But they really have only one year. People don't have the patience to stick around. Best players will get poached. When they leave, you have to start over.


Yup but this causes a few problems.  One, it's not really even a year....it's a matter of months from the release window to the first game of the season (the MLS/EA/E64/NPL windows are now very short...a matter of 4 months), where your full squad may not even be assembled because of people leaving, players being promoted/demoted/tried out and new people being recruited.  Your roster may not be set in the older ages until a week before the season if you are unlucky.  Not even the best coaches can do that.

Second, it does terrible things for development particularly among the clubs that need middle tier NPL/flight 1 teams in their rosters to give a full range of flight levels, particularly if there's pro/rel: things like the old boot the ball, get the big legged defender to kick the goalkick long into a 50/50 situation, pick the fastest kids early on to footrace the opposition, focus on shooting (particularly over the goalkeepers) with your time instead of passing and possession, prevent kids from advancing within the club to higher teams because the NPL or Premiere team needs to be kept competitive, recruit already developed players instead of developing the ones you got.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Do teams currently in flight 1 have an advantage in recruiting? Meaning more players come to their tryout, getting better players to show up. Are they less likely to lose core players?


Flight 1 has an adv vs flight 2 or 3 because you'll attract those wanting to move up to flight 1. I've seen teams "advertise" as flight 1 during tryouts but end up playing flight 2 in the fall (and kids leaving right before the fall season because of it). 

But even within flight 1, there's migration from bad flight 1 teams to mid tier flight 1 teams to a great one. 

I would say the top flight 1 teams will still have some turnover because there will always be kids playing the least and parents move them where they can play more and/or play at a specific position. 

A "bad flight 1" team might have just as much or even more turnover than a flight 2/3 team however because of parents believe, often incorrectly, that the reason why the team was so bad is the other kids on the team and their kid is clearly "flight 1 material" and must move on to better teams.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 11, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> A "bad flight 1" team might have just as much or even more turnover than a flight 2/3 team however because of parents believe, often incorrectly, that the reason why the team was so bad is the other kids on the team and their kid is clearly "flight 1 material" and must move on to better teams.


The same parents go to the tryout for the better team and find out their Johnny couldn't make the team. This is why I think even a bad flight 1 team has the advantage in keeping the core players.


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## Messi>CR7 (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Do teams currently in flight 1 have an advantage in recruiting? Meaning more players come to their tryout, getting better players to show up. Are they less likely to lose core players?


It has an advantage only if you're a competitive flight 1 team.  It doesn't necessarily need to be a winning team, but the team needs to be competitive.  For example, a 3-6-3 record for a first-year flight 1 team is completely reasonable.  No one is lining up to join a winless flight 1 team that cannot compete at all.  Trust me, people know the scores even though SoCal does not post scores for the youngest teams.

U11 and U13 are good years to look for options as rosters expand to 9v9 and 11v11 respectively.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 11, 2022)

I think a winless flight 1 is only 1-2 recruits away to become competitive. No? 
Just like my son's previous club, 1-2 players away from going flight 1. I think the blow back is too great if you move back to flight 2.


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## Grace T. (Oct 11, 2022)

Messi>CR7 said:


> It has an advantage only if you're a competitive flight 1 team.  It doesn't necessarily need to be a winning team, but the team needs to be competitive.  For example, a 3-6-3 record for a first-year flight 1 team is completely reasonable.  No one is lining up to join a winless flight 1 team that cannot compete at all.  Trust me, people know the scores even though SoCal does not post scores for the youngest teams.
> 
> U11 and U13 are good years to look for options as rosters expand to 9v9 and 11v11 respectively.


 I remember just a few years back that club soccer didn't even start up until U10.  That's 1-2 years before you are shifting.

I agree that while a winless flight 1 team in the youngers would have trouble recruiting, Jamiesfoes is right at that age it usually just takes the ability to get a hold of 1 really good player (usually someone that can just outrun the others and hit the goal on target since the GKs can usually only block things shot directly at them at that age) and things can turn around quick.  The other players at the same time are getting more experienced and then by U11 the higher level slots start opening up drawing the best players and teams.

I'd also note that at the oldest ages, for amongst the boys at least, there are a ton of boys lining up to play for MLS Academy and Next teams where they will sit on the bench and because of substitution limits will get very limited play time (in some cases, particularly the GKs, maybe none at all) and are willing to trade that just to be on the MLS Next Team, even though the team may be ranked last.    The bigger limitation at those ages becomes that they cannot draw top talent because of their limited pools (smaller towns like Temecula, Oxnard, or Santa Barbara) or because they are in the shadow of another club or team that has captured an area.


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## lafalafa (Oct 11, 2022)

The only thing constant in youth soccer is change, ever season is different.  Players, coaches, management coming and going, names changing, etc. 

For the ulitties depending on the area and club recruiting can start early, too early in some cases.

Our under 7 yr old niece and nephew play or practice futsal regularly and their parents have already been approached couple time at the indoor center.

Tryouts?  Used to be important to get your foot in the door and to the highest level to get the better coach(s)

Besides the very first ones  @ age ~ 7 I don't recall our players going through them in even during the big field transition.   After U9 all the players where pretty much hand selected by coaching staffs ahead of time.   New tryout players never made the 1st  teams I recall.  2nd-3rd teams was basically the only path to get in

The old adage still rings true, coaching is the 1st and biggest priority when considering options, everything else takes a back seat.   Getting a A, B or just a great young enthusiastic coach can make the world of difference.   

Some coaches have to recruit to stay competitive unless the club does it for them or it's just a geographic or  big name brand draw.

By the time tryouts roll around relying on some new magic players to randomly showing up is like playing the lotto, odds not in your favor.


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## socalkdg (Oct 11, 2022)

Recruiting never ends.   First time was during AYSO Extra tryouts.  Coming off tryouts had club coaches giving her and I their card.  
Every year there would be a few attempts.  Has happened in a park,  at a college soccer game we were watching, online.   Saw a lot of it happen while my daughter was a sophomore and Junior in High School.  You have players from different clubs who tell their head coach about your kid and then the coaches are watching High School games.  Pretty crazy.


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## lafalafa (Oct 11, 2022)

socalkdg said:


> Recruiting never ends.   First time was during AYSO Extra tryouts.  Coming off tryouts had club coaches giving her and I their card.
> Every year there would be a few attempts.  Has happened in a park,  at a college soccer game we were watching, online.   Saw a lot of it happen while my daughter was a sophomore and Junior in High School.  You have players from different clubs who tell their head coach about your kid and then the coaches are watching High School games.  Pretty crazy.


Doesn't stop in college either,  some professional management firms/scouts at the last home game and having words after the games.

Nli stores has been signing some of men now so they have merch deals and some endorsement income that you will be seeing more of I would think.


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## VanMan (Oct 11, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I think a winless flight 1 is only 1-2 recruits away to become competitive. No?
> Just like my son's previous club, 1-2 players away from going flight 1. I think the blow back is too great if you move back to flight 2.


At the age groups being discussed here, maybe.  But a kid or two that is good enough to make that kind of difference isn't going to a winless flight 1 team, they're looking to the top performers and big clubs, unless the parents haven't been around long.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Oct 11, 2022)

I see a lot of talk about wins and flight 1.  But ALWAYS FOCUS ON DEVELOPMENT...which usually boils down to quality of coach at youngers age.  I've seen players club hop to join better teams to win more trophies at the expense of their development.  Two or three years later they have a bunch of U10 medals and are complaining about how they can't get onto this or that team.


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## paytoplay (Oct 12, 2022)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I see a lot of talk about wins and flight 1.  But ALWAYS FOCUS ON DEVELOPMENT...which usually boils down to quality of coach at youngers age.  I've seen players club hop to join better teams to win more trophies at the expense of their development.  Two or three years later they have a bunch of U10 medals and are complaining about how they can't get onto this or that team.


One more year to go with pay to play soccer, so my belief is that *flight* is more important than *coach*. I’ve seen, for every 10 average coach, 1 impressive coach. My DD has had mostly average coaches, with some truly awful ones—looking at you HS!! Are the good coaches really coaching flight 2s and 3s?! I don’t believe that. We’re overrating the coaching component.
Flight (or competition level) is the determinant. Because development is more about the players learning and competing *against each other. *And the better players eventually move up the ladder like a herd.
Example. Pick up basketball—where are you going to improve your game? would you choose the top court with the best athletes that you’re forced to defend? Or the one with the old out of shape dads throwing up airballs?


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## crush (Oct 12, 2022)

socalkdg said:


> Recruiting never ends.   First time was during AYSO Extra tryouts.  Coming off tryouts had club coaches giving her and I their card.
> Every year there would be a few attempts.  Has happened in a park,  at a college soccer game we were watching, online.   Saw a lot of it happen while my daughter was a sophomore and Junior in High School.  You have players from different clubs who tell their head coach about your kid and then the coaches are watching High School games.  Pretty crazy.


I remember all the invites to all the different soccer "church" families to join when my baby was 6 years old. It reminds me of my first day in college and my church days. All the frat tables and religious groups trying to get you to join their club the first week. Watch out for the cult leaders dressed in sheep's clothing but is a wolf. 
Leader= Coach or Doc
Disciple= Player or in some cases, dad!


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## rainbow_unicorn (Oct 12, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> One more year to go with pay to play soccer, so my belief is that *flight* is more important than *coach*. I’ve seen, for every 10 average coach, 1 impressive coach. My DD has had mostly average coaches, with some truly awful ones—looking at you HS!! Are the good coaches really coaching flight 2s and 3s?! I don’t believe that. We’re overrating the coaching component.
> Flight (or competition level) is the determinant. Because development is more about the players learning and competing *against each other. *And the better players eventually move up the ladder like a herd.
> Example. Pick up basketball—where are you going to improve your game? would you choose the top court with the best athletes that you’re forced to defend? Or the one with the old out of shape dads throwing up airballs?


I agree flight is important.  Definitely going to be more challenged at flight 1 v flight 2 which is part of development.  But if you had to pick between flight 1 teams pick the one that has the better coach/development versus the team that tries to win at all costs.


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## Grace T. (Oct 12, 2022)

VanMan said:


> unless the parents haven't been around long.


That's the entire point...most don't unless you had a kid go through the system.  It totally took me at least 2 years and a ton of work to know the ins and outs.  And these are kids that are usually just starting out in club soccer.  Because they are younger as well, parents might be looking at local rather than sticking them in the car for an hour in LA traffic and so they can get to bed at a decent hour.



paytoplay said:


> Are the good coaches really coaching flight 2s and 3s?! I don’t believe that. We’re overrating the coaching component.


Well the other thing that a bad coach can do is that unless your kid is a superstar and even flight 1 is beneath them (the type of kid that when ECNL opens up they have every team beating down their doors for a starting position and offering scholarships), a bad coach can make them hate the game.  And I've seen plenty of really good players walk away from the sport because they just don't have the heart (and not necessarily just the talent) to face the grind it takes day in and day out to make it to the top.

You tend to also get some really really good coaches in flight 2 and 3 in the younger ages because the coaches are just starting out and the club doesn't assign them the top teams.  They've just gone through their licenses so their information is up to date.  They haven't had enough time to become jaded.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 12, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> One more year to go with pay to play soccer, so my belief is that *flight* is more important than *coach*. I’ve seen, for every 10 average coach, 1 impressive coach.


I agree with this sentiment. If you're sort of blindly picking a team for your kid (and unless you've known the coach for some time, it's blind because what you see at tryout might not be his usual behavior), might as well play vs the highest competition. If you know the coach and can vouch for his skill as a coach and character as a person, then I think it's wise to stick to him/her as I agree that great coaches are rare.



paytoplay said:


> Are the good coaches really coaching flight 2s and 3s?! I don’t believe that.


I've seen instances where a great coach (A license, many years of experience, great results in national competition at older ages) got "stuck" coaching a flight 3 younger team because the club couldn't hire someone else and they were desperate for a coach. So you got a great coach at the younger lower flight BUT the caveat here was that, obviously the team wasn't a priority for him so he missed a lot of games/practices to tend to his other more important teams.



paytoplay said:


> Or the one with the old out of shape dads throwing up airballs?


I feel personally attacked by this statement.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 12, 2022)

Another thing people don't know about flight 1 team is their roster is pretty much full. Even if your player is "flight 1 caliber", that's not enough to get you added. You need to be better than the top 4 players on the team for the coach to make a change. That's how they ensure the team gets better every year.


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## focomoso (Oct 12, 2022)

VanMan said:


> Getting smoked at Flight 1 is likely to yield more roster turnover (to other flight 1 teams that are doing well) than doing well in Flight 2.


Winning is the best medicine, yes and people are more likely to stay on a winning team even if the level and coaching isn't that good, but in my experience, the better kids end up leaving eventually anyway. My son was on an ECRL team that won almost every game, often by double digits and because ECNL doesn't have relegation / promotion, the team was stuck at RL and so eventually we and a number of the better players ended up leaving. Kids need to be challenged to improve.


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## jojon (Oct 13, 2022)

This is my second year (actually longer but I discounted the lockdown) and this problem still confuses me. I have kids in flight 1 & 2.
Whether I move to a different club/team or not do not seem to matter, essentially every season is a new team. 
I see some teams appear to be stable but my friends/families with soccer players tell me the same thing, every season feels like rebuilding a team.
Should I move clubs every year until I find this rare, stable team that stays together until U15 or older? or at least continue to find this "good" coach? Since the contract is at least 1 year, I am afraid I am running out of time unless I got lucky 
One of the advice to go to "higher flight whenever in doubt" does not seem to work for me. When team loses 5-0, 8-0, arguably the GK and defenders at least got individual training but the striker most likely not even got a touch on the ball. No real passing game beyond defense clearance.


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## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

jojon said:


> This is my second year (actually longer but I discounted the lockdown) and this problem still confuses me. I have kids in flight 1 & 2.
> Whether I move to a different club/team or not do not seem to matter, essentially every season is a new team.
> I see some teams appear to be stable but my friends/families with soccer players tell me the same thing, every season feels like rebuilding a team.
> Should I move clubs every year until I find this rare, stable team that stays together until U15 or older? or at least continue to find this "good" coach? Since the contract is at least 1 year, I am afraid I am running out of time unless I got lucky
> One of the advice to go to "higher flight whenever in doubt" does not seem to work for me. When team loses 5-0, 8-0, arguably the GK and defenders at least got individual training but the striker most likely not even got a touch on the ball. No real passing game beyond defense clearance.


One of the smartest dads I know had GK that was real good. He played GK in college and asked his dd the GK, "Do you want to win 7-0 all the time and have no shots on goals to even try and save or lose 4-0 and save 15 shots a game? She picked losing ((learning to get better)) over winning and now she is big time D1 and playing. Another top dd Gk won championship and championship and all that fun winning stuff but not many saves and is now sitting on the bench in college. I still don't interstand all this flight 1 and flight 2 and even flight 3.


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## Grace T. (Oct 13, 2022)

jojon said:


> This is my second year (actually longer but I discounted the lockdown) and this problem still confuses me. I have kids in flight 1 & 2.
> Whether I move to a different club/team or not do not seem to matter, essentially every season is a new team.
> I see some teams appear to be stable but my friends/families with soccer players tell me the same thing, every season feels like rebuilding a team.
> Should I move clubs every year until I find this rare, stable team that stays together until U15 or older? or at least continue to find this "good" coach? Since the contract is at least 1 year, I am afraid I am running out of time unless I got lucky
> One of the advice to go to "higher flight whenever in doubt" does not seem to work for me. When team loses 5-0, 8-0, arguably the GK and defenders at least got individual training but the striker most likely not even got a touch on the ball. No real passing game beyond defense clearance.





crush said:


> One of the smartest dads I know had GK that was real good. He played GK in college and asked his dd the GK, "Do you want to win 7-0 all the time and have no shots on goals to even try and save or lose 4-0 and save 15 shots a game? She picked losing ((learning to get better)) over winning and now she is big time D1 and playing. Another top dd Gk won championship and championship and all that fun winning stuff but not many saves and is now sitting on the bench in college. I still don't interstand all this flight 1 and flight 2 and even flight 3.


For GKS (and somewhat for defenders) the sweet spot is being on a team in the middle of a pack.  Being on a very top team is bad because then you are not seeing the shots you need to get better....if you are older you also aren't building your highlight reel.  Being on very low team is also bad because the GK is always the first one to get scape goated...until the boys are 15 and are beginning to grow fully into both their height and testosterone and the girls until senior year or college (if then), they can't realistically cover most of the goal and learn all the techniques necessary to be truly effective (particularly once the strikers stop shooting it directly at them) but the expectation is if it went in it must have been the GK's fault.

I think realistically in the current landscape, even for strikers, you are going to have to move a few times in a career given that there's just so much that can happen: teams turn over as players leave/start, coaches turn over as clubs move them around, the needs of the player changes as they get older and things shift from development to recruitment, and the team may or may not perform in any particular year.  It's why pro/rel never really made a lot of sense to me in the current environment: it started as something to make sure the tiers are balanced but that's clearly not working because you still have x-0 blowouts...and as a reward system it also doesn't make sense because the team that earned the reward isn't necessarily the team that will play in it.  If you are unlucky you will have to move several times.  If you are lucky, you might get to sit at a place a few years.


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## lafalafa (Oct 13, 2022)

crush said:


> One of the smartest dads I know had GK that was real good. He played GK in college and asked his dd the GK, "Do you want to win 7-0 all the time and have no shots on goals to even try and save or lose 4-0 and save 15 shots a game? She picked losing ((learning to get better)) over winning and now she is big time D1 and playing. Another top dd Gk won championship and championship and all that fun winning stuff but not many saves and is now sitting on the bench in college. I still don't interstand all this flight 1 and flight 2 and even flight 3.


Prior to the mega club consolidation, alpha leagues, name branding kids started out at  local clubs and they sorted out the players into color groups teams like black, white, red (or whatever the club colors) where. This designation was for the pseudo A, B, C teams but it was subtle not to rub some the wrong way.   Sometimes the White or B team would actually have better overall season results.   

At the end of near the end of season those wanting to return would either be told they would have a spot  on  their existing team for the upcoming season or not.  Those without assignments could go back to tryouts for revaluation or try other clubs.  Normally this indicated current club is suggesting a drop down to next level. 

Times have changed and there is a lot more turnover, movement, and it's much harder to keep teams together.  Being able to play with friends, neighbors, classmates has some value as does chemistry between the players.  Our players where always good friends with at least 2-3x players for them to even consider a team and by u17 or so they knew ever player very well.    Even in college our player knew or played with several existing players before he signed up and two of his good friends went with.

Players change every year and so does the coaching and other things so a clean fresh slate would be nice but doesn't happen that much, more like a caste system,  once you're label'd  flight 2 & 3 moving up can be difficult unless you switch clubs.


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## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Prior to the mega club consolidation, alpha leagues, name branding kids started out at  local clubs and they sorted out the players into color groups teams like black, white, red (or whatever the club colors) where. This designation was for the pseudo A, B, C teams but it was subtle not to rub some the wrong way.   Sometimes the White or B team would actually have better overall season results.
> 
> At the end of near the end of season those wanting to return would either be told they would have a spot  on  their existing team for the upcoming season or not.  Those without assignments could go back to tryouts for revaluation or try other clubs.  Normally this indicated current club is suggesting a drop down to next level.
> 
> ...


Excellent takes Lafalafa. In other countries I notice that the academy is flight 1, flight 2, flight 3 and so on and not the players. If the academy is winning and doing things right, the academy team moves up to next level. Labeling soccer players by flight is stupid and just a way for some coaches to tell parent that if they do extra training then the guru can help kid go from flight 3 to flight 2 level player. This is so dumb and just wrong. This is a team sport and what US Soccer did with the age change back in 2016 was horrible and cause so much disruption and emotional pain. If anything, they should have started at u9 and lower and let all the other ages stay with old school calendar. ECNL told Pats no ECNL and most of the players and coaches went to Strikers. Then the Strikers would not obey the leaders and they got ECNL ripped away and then given to the Pats. Who was hurt by this emotionally? Yes, the girls. I can tell you 100% some of the top Docs told US Soccer not to do the age change or at least grandfather the kids at the early age and let the kids who have been on the same team for a few years finish out. Nope, you do as told or else!!!


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## jojon (Oct 14, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I think realistically in the current landscape, even for strikers, you are going to have to move a few times in a career given that there's just so much that can happen: teams turn over as players leave/start, coaches turn over as clubs move them around, the needs of the player changes as they get older and things shift from development to recruitment, and the team may or may not perform in any particular year.  It's why pro/rel never really made a lot of sense to me in the current environment: it started as something to make sure the tiers are balanced but that's clearly not working because you still have x-0 blowouts...and as a reward system it also doesn't make sense because the team that earned the reward isn't necessarily the team that will play in it.  If you are unlucky you will have to move several times.  If you are lucky, you might get to sit at a place a few years.


Agree, I think it is better to look for different team (or coach if that is your problem) rather than trying to stay and hope things will change. My kids have been the ones staying put when 5-6 players left. If you move, better or worse, it is in your control. If you stay with the team, you leave it to chance to players' recruitment and/or coach rotation.


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## Dargle (Oct 14, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> For GKS (and somewhat for defenders) the sweet spot is being on a team in the middle of a pack.  Being on a very top team is bad because then you are not seeing the shots you need to get better....if you are older you also aren't building your highlight reel.  Being on very low team is also bad because the GK is always the first one to get scape goated...until the boys are 15 and are beginning to grow fully into both their height and testosterone and the girls until senior year or college (if then), they can't realistically cover most of the goal and learn all the techniques necessary to be truly effective (particularly once the strikers stop shooting it directly at them) but the expectation is if it went in it must have been the GK's fault.
> 
> I think realistically in the current landscape, even for strikers, you are going to have to move a few times in a career given that there's just so much that can happen: teams turn over as players leave/start, coaches turn over as clubs move them around, the needs of the player changes as they get older and things shift from development to recruitment, and the team may or may not perform in any particular year.  It's why pro/rel never really made a lot of sense to me in the current environment: it started as something to make sure the tiers are balanced but that's clearly not working because you still have x-0 blowouts...and as a reward system it also doesn't make sense because the team that earned the reward isn't necessarily the team that will play in it.  If you are unlucky you will have to move several times.  If you are lucky, you might get to sit at a place a few years.


At the older age groups, for a GK, the sweet spot is the middle of the top tier.  The competition matters for the types of situations you face and college coaches' assumptions about the quality of the shots and strikers you are facing.  Defending a 1 v. 1 against a fast kick-and-run, but lower skill, forward is not the same as a 1 v. 1 striker who has the full range of tools in their toolkit, including the chip, cut back, far post curler, can use both feet etc.  Same with facing a whipped in cross versus the long looping ball, a striker who attacks a header versus those who let the ball hit them, and a team that can pass the ball well and runs the channels, forcing the GK to cover more of the goal.  It also helps with developing the ability to play out of pressure and the expectation that you can ping the ball to a teammate's foot in all parts of your half.  But Grace is right that if you aren't facing many shots, that's not ideal either.  You can still get recruited because you face a lot of shots in practice from great strikers and college coaches watch you in warmups and in ID camps to make sure you have the goods, but it's not as great for developing the experience to deal with a variety of situations.


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## Dargle (Oct 14, 2022)

One interesting phenomenon is that if you have a Flight 2 team that survives to High School years, it will be in demand after that.  Partly, that's because the players start to recruit rather than the coaches/parents and the players all know kids from their HS teams who are looking for spots after HS season. Partly, it's because there are far fewer club teams by then because the less dedicated kids have quit and the more dedicated have moved to the elite teams.  And it really doesn't matter if the team isn't very good.  The thing about a Flight 2 HS-age team is the kids generally aren't doing it to make a college team or to get scouted by a higher team.  They want to develop their skills and stay in shape to make their HS team, but their HS coach typically isn't watching and some don't play HS soccer or wouldn't even make their teams.  If they are using it for anything, it's either for college admissions, because it's an activity they can list on their applications, or to satisfy their PE requirement for kids going to some schools where they allow that.  And that doesn't mean they are being forced by their parents to do it to help them for college or to place out of PE to take more rigorous courses.  Their parents don't come to practices or even every game anymore because the kids can drive.  The kids are having fun, even if they are losing, and they are playing competitively for each other and to enjoy their last years of soccer.  It's kind of pure that way, even if they fool around more in practice than coaches would like.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 14, 2022)

jojon said:


> Should I move clubs every year until I find this rare, stable team that stays together until U15 or older? or at least continue to find this "good" coach?


Another thing to note is that the coaches good or bad do not coach the same team forever.
Most coaches pass on their teams to someone else in 2-3 years, either because clubs like to rotate coaches or teams move onto different leagues and there are coaches designated to coach the teams coming up through the ranks (pre-ECNL, EA, etc) as kids get older.
So if you find a "good coach" in his or her 2nd or 3rd year, you might not get that coach even if you stay on the same team...


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## focomoso (Oct 14, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Another thing to note is that the coaches good or bad do not coach the same team forever.
> Most coaches pass on their teams to someone else in 2-3 years...


It's funny, my son has been at two different clubs where they say that this is the pattern, yet if the team is good, when it comes time to pass the team on, somehow it doesn't happen. This actually goes to the original question. If a team is improving, no one wants to leave, coach included. When they're stagnant or moving down, everyone wants out.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Oct 14, 2022)

Fligjht is definitely more important. Recently my daughter played up a year at flight 2 and she went from being average on flight 1 to the best player on a flight 2 team even though it was 1 year older.       The way socal allows teams to move up with no requirements, flight 2 is more like fligjt 3 at the older age groups.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 15, 2022)

Another source of instability that I see is recruiting of out of area scholarship players. A team is always better off with local players. Out of area players jump around for better deals. Some of them don't even come to practice.


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## crush (Oct 15, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Another source of instability that I see is recruiting of out of area scholarship players. A team is always better off with local players. Out of area players jump around for better deals. Some of them don't even come to practice.


I would say "some" out of area players look for better deals. Some out of area players go for the top coach, who happens to be out of the local area. I know a few coaches that had DP players and some who were too far for the commute but they were the best so when they came to the game, they played and the girl went to practice all week sat on the bench and watched. Parents ((customer)) does not like that. I was labelled on here for 4 years as a club hopper and medal chaser and some even think I was going around to ALL the Docs in Socal trying to get a full ride and even a per diem for each month. It was not true at all. They called me and asked me to come to their HQs and listen to all their offers.


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## Grace T. (Oct 15, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Fligjht is definitely more important. Recently my daughter played up a year at flight 2 and she went from being average on flight 1 to the best player on a flight 2 team even though it was 1 year older.       The way socal allows teams to move up with no requirements, flight 2 is more like fligjt 3 at the older age groups.


In a working flight system that’s what should be happening: the teams that have been together longest should be improving and moving up.

among the olders, for the boys, flight 1 isn’t really flight one but flight 5. It comes after the mls academies, mls next/ecnl, ea/ernl, npl/elite 64/premiere/ea2.




Jamisfoes said:


> Another source of instability that I see is recruiting of out of area scholarship players. A team is always better off with local players. Out of area players jump around for better deals. Some of them don't even come to practice.


this really shouldn’t even be allowed but I don’t know what way you could police it. It does a great disservice to the other players and not just complaining about the playtime of kids that show up to practice v those that don’t. The kids that in instances are allowed to do this are generally key impact players. But the other kids are missing out by having those players not be at practice: goalkeepers not learning against the best shooters, a defensive line trying to work with a star cb, team missing shooting against the lead goalkeeper, the teammates not learning to build out with the key defenders.


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 15, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> This is really shouldn’t even be allowed but I don’t know what way you could police it. It does a great disservice to the other players and not just complaining about the playtime of kids that show up to practice v those that don’t. The kids that in instances are allowed to do this are generally key impact players. But the other kids are missing out by having those players not be at practice: goalkeepers not learning against the best shooters, a defensive line trying to work with a star cb, team missing shooting against the lead goalkeeper, the teammates not learning to build out with the key defenders.


I don't have a problem with out of area players who come to practice. However, these players are often first to leave if another club closer to home becomes available.


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## jojon (Oct 17, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I don't have a problem with out of area players who come to practice. However, these players are often first to leave if another club closer to home becomes available.


Prioritizing players who come to practice more regularly is difficult for any coach if the other player is clearly better. 
My neighbor's son is a goalkeeper and also a basketball/football player. The dad told me he almost never goes practice (due to schedule) but plays 100% all the time because he is much better than his backup. He is still in middle school and only plays in ECRL so it may not work at higher level but I can see the dilemma for the coach.


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## jojon (Oct 17, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> In a working flight system that’s what should be happening: the teams that have been together longest should be improving and moving up.
> among the olders, for the boys, flight 1 isn’t really flight one but flight 5. It comes after the mls academies, mls next/ecnl, ea/ernl, npl/elite 64/premiere/ea2.


It is difficult to believe that we have that much talent, even in so cal. Let's take the second level only (NPL/elite64/premier/ea/ea2/ecrl). 
6 leagues, approximately 16kids/team. 10 teams/league.
So for example in LA/OC area, there are approximately 960 boys better than flight 1 in one particular age group?   
I would say either Flight 1 is just recreational or the "elites" are not really special (except for MLS Academies).


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## lafalafa (Oct 17, 2022)

jojon said:


> It is difficult to believe that we have that much talent, even in so cal. Let's take the second level only (NPL/elite64/premier/ea/ea2/ecrl).
> 6 leagues, approximately 16kids/team. 10 teams/league.
> So for example in LA/OC area, there are approximately 960 boys better than flight 1 in one particular age group?
> I would say either Flight 1 is just recreational or the "elites" are not really special (except for MLS Academies).


Thousands of players in those leagues and you could group all of them + flight 1 or whatever and the stats would say almost all are playing for recreation.

The pseudo labels on leagues is for marketing not necessarily skill level or anything despite some selling the so-called soccer youth pyramid which is flaky at best.

There is a huge drop out rate starting about age 13 for youth sports and the pandemic just accelerated that.  The latest study I read says youth soccer numbers are down and only like 6% play soccer from 13-17 of the total youth sports participants while basketball is at 17% for example.

HIgh school players are about out the only metric we have to compare who continuers on.   The high majority of them also play club soccer in our area and that's the end of their sports participation.  

With only about About 8% of high school men's soccer players go on to play in college, and only about 1% go on to play for a Division 1 school you could say that club stats would be a bit higher but not by much overall.

8 Out of 100 players and 1 at the highest level just for college and Whereas it is less than 1 percent of soccer players who go to a club, normally by the age of nine, will actually make it to the professional ranks.

Not as bad as lottery odds but it's gambling nonetheless unless you just view it as fun recreational activities that are worth experience and learning from. Some spends thousands at Disney so at least your getting the kids some exercise and fitness this way.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Oct 17, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> 8 Out of 100 players and 1 at the highest level just for college and Whereas it is less than 1 percent of soccer players who go to a club, normally by the age of nine, will actually make it to the professional ranks.


There was a stat about kids in soccer in England. Less than 1% of the kids who play in academies at age 9 make a living in any level of soccer. And in terms of making the EPL, it's 180 out of 1.5 million kids - 0.012%.


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## crush (Oct 17, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Thousands of players in those leagues and you could group all of them + flight 1 or whatever and the stats would say almost all are playing for recreation.
> 
> The pseudo labels on leagues is for marketing not necessarily skill level or anything despite some selling the so-called soccer youth pyramid which is flaky at best.
> 
> ...


Every player is a soccer player. Only a few find the top. The rest of the girls have fun and find happiness in the game again. This flight stuff is for the birds and for marketing purpose to make more teams=$$$


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## Jamisfoes (Oct 17, 2022)

It's a natural progression for people to seek out better competition. I think majority of club parents have the disposable income and enjoy watching their kids' soccer on Saturday.


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