# Quick offside question



## socalkdg (Aug 27, 2018)

Free kick, all girls on side.  Ball is kicked by Team A.  While ball in air Team A girl moves past the Team B girl.  I know this isn't offside.    While the ball is in air touches Team B girl on chest, but continues to Team A girl that had moved past the Team B girl.  Can't remember if this is offside or not.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks.


----------



## sweeperkeeper (Aug 27, 2018)

The girl is onside no issues.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 27, 2018)

sweeperkeeper said:


> The girl is onside no issues.


Thanks.   It was called correctly then.


----------



## coachrefparent (Aug 27, 2018)

Just curious what confused you? The ball hitting the defense?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 28, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Just curious what confused you? The ball hitting the defense?


Yes.   

This leads me to another question.

If a girl was already in the offside position, then a ball banks off a defender and goes to that girl.   Offside or not?  Or is the ball hitting a defender completely waive offside call no matter what.


----------



## MWN (Aug 28, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Yes.
> 
> This leads me to another question.
> 
> If a girl was already in the offside position, then a ball banks off a defender and goes to that girl.   Offside or not?  Or is the ball hitting a defender completely waive offside call no matter what.


The issues is whether the defender "deliberately played the ball."  Attempting to control the ball with one's chest is "deliberately playing the ball," whereas, a deflection may not be.  The referee will take all the factors into account as to whether the ball was deliberately played and make a judgment call.


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Aug 28, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Yes.
> 
> This leads me to another question.
> 
> If a girl was already in the offside position, then a ball banks off a defender and goes to that girl.   Offside or not?  Or is the ball hitting a defender completely waive offside call no matter what.


Depends on if the referee judges the defender deliberately attempted to play the ball or not.  If deliberate, then the player is onside.  If just a deflection, then offside.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 28, 2018)

Great everyone.   Always nice to get a refresher course.


----------



## baldref (Aug 28, 2018)

you need to be sure that a player has made an attempt to "play" the ball and not just block the ball before you allow the play to continue and not call the offside.


----------



## coachrefparent (Aug 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> you need to be sure that a player has made an attempt to "play" the ball and not just block the ball before you allow the play to continue and not call the offside.


Blocking a ball is not playing it?


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Aug 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> you need to be sure that a player has made an attempt to "play" the ball and not just block the ball before you allow the play to continue and not call the offside.


I think the other key bit in this might be seeing if the defender was making an attempt to block the ball _close to the goal_ (i.e. a deliberate save) and the attacker would then be penalized for an offside offense.  

Relevant law below:

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:


interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close to him when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball

or


gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent

*A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.*

*A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).*​


----------



## baldref (Aug 28, 2018)

if the player is blocking the path of the ball, and the ball is kicked and goes off him/her, that is not playing the ball. still offside.


----------



## GunninGopher (Aug 28, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Blocking a ball is not playing it?


At an association meeting last year, the instructors wanted everyone know that a deliberate play was an actual play on the ball with an intent to play it in a particular direction (my words). As I understood it, we were to consider it a deflection unless it was clearly a deliberate play.

In the case of the ball coming off a player's chest, I would look for the player to have intended to play it directly to another player, their own feet or in another obvious direction to consider it a deliberate play on the ball.

I attached my notes on the subject from the meeting.


----------



## timbuck (Aug 28, 2018)

baldref said:


> if the player is blocking the path of the ball, and the ball is kicked and goes off him/her, that is not playing the ball. still offside.


What of that player sticks her foot out to stop the ball—-makes contact- but flicks sideways to a player in an offside position.  
Asking for a “friend” who saw this happen this weekend and he questioned the referee on it.


----------



## baldref (Aug 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> What of that player sticks her foot out to stop the ball—-makes contact- but flicks sideways to a player in an offside position.
> Asking for a “friend” who saw this happen this weekend and he questioned the referee on it.


if she's blocking the ball, no offside. again, my original point is that it's not playing the ball if you're three yards away and blocking a kicked ball. with any part of your body (except hands)

now, if it's a ball over the top and you are running and trying to control.... that's playing the ball. it is an easier concept when it's in front of goal and the kicked ball could go in. but even 30 yards out, if she's standing in front of the attacker and trying to block the ball and it deflects off her, still offside.


----------



## MWN (Aug 28, 2018)

... and we also take into account the relative age/skill level of the players in determining "deliberate."  A misplayed header by an MLS player is viewed differently than an misplayed header by a U9.


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Aug 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> What of that player sticks her foot out to stop the ball—-makes contact- but flicks sideways to a player in an offside position.
> Asking for a “friend” who saw this happen this weekend and he questioned the referee on it.


As with almost every situation like this, it's impossible to make a decision without more information.  How far was the player from the ball? How far was the player from her own goal? Did the player move her foot towards the ball? Was she balanced and trying to direct the ball in a certain direction? These are all considerations to take into account. It _sounds_ like the attacker would not be offside as the defender tried to play the ball, but impossible to know if it wasn't seen in person.


----------



## timbuck (Aug 28, 2018)

My “friend” didn’t argue much. Just questioned if the referee thought the player deliberately tried to play the ball.  Attacker was about 15 feet past midfield.  Defender was 14 feet from midfield.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Aug 28, 2018)

timbuck said:


> My “friend” didn’t argue much. Just questioned if the referee thought the player deliberately tried to play the ball.  Attacker was about 15 feet past midfield.  Defender was 14 feet from midfield.


I think I remember the criteria for "deliberately playing the ball" as being eerily similar to the criteria for "deliberately handling the ball". You have to have enough time to react to the ball, it had to be body part to ball, not ball to body part.

I think another word for baldref's "blocking" is "deflection".

As the players get more skilled, the act of "deliberately" playing the ball gets a lower bar. Ie: a defender anticipating where a pass would take place would be deliberate even if he had no time to react to the ball from the moment it was kicked. The fact that he guessed where the ball would go prior to the kick is a deliberate action.


----------



## MWN (Aug 29, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> ...The fact that he guessed where the ball would go prior to the kick is a deliberate action.


I mildly disagree with the above.  As I understand, "deliberately played" means more than simply guessing where the ball would go, but there is an intentional attempt to control (move the ball in a controlled direction) the ball beyond a simple block/deflection.  Sticking ones foot out to stop a shot requires guessing where the ball will leave the stricker's foot and the likely trajectory, which does not constitute a deliberate play of the ball and reset of offside, whereas, attempting to one-touch the ball to a teammate that goes awry and to an offside defender is a deliberate play,


----------



## baldref (Aug 29, 2018)

concur


----------



## futboldad1 (Aug 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> I mildly disagree with the above.  As I understand, "deliberately played" means more than simply guessing where the ball would go, but there is an intentional attempt to control (move the ball in a controlled direction) the ball beyond a simple block/deflection.  Sticking ones foot out to stop a shot requires guessing where the ball will leave the stricker's foot and the likely trajectory, which does not constitute a deliberate play of the ball and reset of offside, whereas, attempting to one-touch the ball to a teammate that goes awry and to an offside defender is a deliberate play,


While what you are saying is common sense and used to be correct, a rule change 3 years ago means unsuccessful attempted blocks apparently do reset offside as the defender deliberately made a play on the ball. It's not about control, it's about any deliberate play. Dumb imo but that's what they changed it to. Half the refs call it, half do not... as half don't know what's correct anymore. V bad rule modification.


----------



## timbuck (Aug 29, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> While what you are saying is common sense and used to be correct, a rule change 2 years ago means unsuccessful attempted blocks do indeed reset offside as the defender deliberately made a play on the ball. It's not about control, it's about any deliberate play. Dumb imo but that's what they changed it to.


That’s what I said to the ref on Saturday.  Exactly this “the rule changed 2 years ago. Deliberate play resets the offside.”
Oh well.


----------



## futboldad1 (Aug 29, 2018)

timbuck said:


> That’s what I said to the ref on Saturday.  Exactly this “the rule changed 2 years ago. Deliberate play resets the offside.”
> Oh well.


You're absolutely correct, Tim. But honestly the change it is totally counter productive


----------



## watfly (Aug 29, 2018)

I  have no dog in this fight but this is what the national ref instructor from askasoccerreferee.com recently said related to this topic:

"In the case of Law 11, intervening contacts are important only if they involve a defender and the critical question is whether the contact is a “play” (briefly, “possessed and controlled”) or a deflection/rebound.  If the decision is that the ball merely rebounded (deflected, bounced off, *touched but not directed*) from the defender or was deliberately “saved” by a defender, then any attacker who was in an offside position at the start of this segment of play (which began when the attacker’s teammate last played the ball) is still in an offside position and thus is not allowed to become involved in active play. "


----------



## GunninGopher (Aug 29, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> While what you are saying is common sense and used to be correct, a rule change 3 years ago means unsuccessful attempted blocks apparently do reset offside as the defender deliberately made a play on the ball. It's not about control, it's about any deliberate play. Dumb imo but that's what they changed it to. Half the refs call it, half do not... as half don't know what's correct anymore. V bad rule modification.


An intentionally blocked or deflected ball DOES NOT reset offside. It has to be a deliberate play, such as a pass. A block does not constitute a play on the ball. See the notes I provided in an earlier post.

In Watfly's quote referring to Law 11 above, a play is described as "possessed and controlled". This precludes a block, because there is no possession.

This one really isn't that hard to officiate.


----------



## futboldad1 (Aug 29, 2018)

GunninGopher said:


> An intentionally blocked or deflected ball DOES NOT reset offside. It has to be a deliberate play, such as a pass. A block does not constitute a play on the ball. See the notes I provided in an earlier post.
> 
> In Watfly's quote referring to Law 11 above, a play is described as "possessed and controlled". This precludes a block, because there is no possession.
> 
> This one really isn't that hard to officiate.


We should get @Surfref in here as I think he would disagree with you. In principle I agree with your post, but your last paragraph is wrong as five different refs can't seem to agree what the call is...

For the record, I hope you are right and what I've been told by referees is wrong. Ball should be under control. Let's see how this shakes out.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

Law 11: Offside is really not that difficult to understand or interpret.  It only takes up three pages of the LOTG.  For comparison Law 1: The Field takes up 9 pages.  For the Referees, I intentionally simplified the explanation to hopefully make it easier for the non-referees to understand.

First of all, stop using the word "Blocked" or "Block" since it is not included in the LOTG or interpretation in the "Other Advice" section of the LOTG. http://www.theifab.com/laws  Pages 97 and 202 for Law 11 and Other Advice.

If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, which includes sticking their leg out, using their chest, shoulder, hip, or head to redirect the path of the ball, a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside. The offside interpretation was modified with the huge LOTG change in the 2016/2017 edition.

There are several criteria to determine if a violation of Law 11 exists. A player being in an offside position is just one of those criteria and is not a violated of Law 11 if the players is in an offside position. One of the other criteria is that the ball must be played by a teammate to the player in an offside position. The change is how we look at what used to be called a deflection or play on the ball. If a defender deliberately attempts to play (redirect) a pass to a player in an offside position and makes contact with the ball regardless or not if redirection (went where the defender wanted the ball to go) was successful, that defender's action is now determined to be that “they played the ball.” There is nothing in Law 11 that says the defender has to have the ball under control. A player in an offside position cannot be in violation of Law 11 if the ball is played to them by an opponent. 

Both of these videos show a player in an offside position and the ball is deliberately played and redirected, very slightly in the header, by a defender to an attacker in an offside position causing no violation of Law 11. The first one is a deliberate play to try to redirect a pass and the second is a deliberate header to try to redirect a pass (cross).  Both videos show good goals and were used in the RPD training (Referee Professional Development and during PRO Referee (MLS) training.

1)
https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs

2)
https://youtu.be/O9Z9DJmyKn8


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

I forgot to add.  In the second video MLS and PRO referee determined the AR made the incorrect call, so disregard his Offside flag indication.


----------



## baldref (Aug 29, 2018)

concur. both of those instances show a player playing the ball. not "making a save" attempt (blocking the ball). 
https://www.proassistantreferees.com/deliberate-deflection/


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I forgot to add.  In the second video MLS and PRO referee determined the AR made the incorrect call, so disregard his Offside flag indication.


I was not even going to go down the "Deliberate Save" road.  It would just lead to more arguing and confusion.

I had one of those "Deliberate Save" Offside calls this past weekend while I was in the center and the fairly new 16y/o girl AR nailed the call.  At halftime some grumpy old guy that we all know who is a referee and coach came over to tell her she was wrong.  I had to explain to him why she was absolutely correct and he was wrong.  It was sort of satisfying to see her smile and watch the grumpy guy walk away with his head down.


----------



## baldref (Aug 29, 2018)

that was why i used "blocking".


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

baldref said:


> that was why i used "blocking".


I understood what you were implying by Blocking, but it was clear that some people did not understand and were just making things worse.


----------



## baldref (Aug 29, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I understood what you were implying by Blocking, but it was clear that some people did not understand and were just making things worse.


that's my goal. making things worse. glad to be of service. 

I just wanted to make the point that just because someone stuck a foot out and the ball bounced off of it, that isn't an automatic offside reset. more often it's not.


----------



## MWN (Aug 29, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> While what you are saying is common sense and used to be correct, a rule change 3 years ago means unsuccessful attempted blocks apparently do reset offside as the defender deliberately made a play on the ball. It's not about control, it's about any deliberate play. Dumb imo but that's what they changed it to. Half the refs call it, half do not... as half don't know what's correct anymore. V bad rule modification.


@fuboldad1 and @timbuck, the rule changed ... but the concept of "deliberate" did not.  Just as in handling, the distance between when the ball is kicked versus where the defender makes contact with the ball is a significant factor.  In the case of a challenge where the stricker and defenders are a yard apart, the defender's attempt to block the shot by sticking their leg out is not a "deliberate play" on the ball.  Just like when a ball is kicked and hits a defender 5 yards away in the hand/arm (in a natural position) is generally not handling, because the defender had no time to react.  The further the defender is from the original kick makes it more likely that the Referee will find a deliberate play has occurred.  

As it was explained to me, "we do not reward sucky play" if a defender misplays the ball ... too bad, offside resets.  But , we are not changing the law to prevent defensive challenges.


----------



## futboldad1 (Aug 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> @fuboldad1 and @timbuck, the rule changed ... but the concept of "deliberate" did not.  Just as in handling, the distance between when the ball is kicked versus where the defender makes contact with the ball is a significant factor.  In the case of a challenge where the stricker and defenders are a yard apart, the defender's attempt to block the shot by sticking their leg out is not a "deliberate play" on the ball.  Just like when a ball is kicked and hits a defender 5 yards away in the hand/arm (in a natural position) is generally not handling, because the defender had no time to react.  The further the defender is from the original kick makes it more likely that the Referee will find a deliberate play has occurred.
> 
> As it was explained to me, "we do not reward sucky play" if a defender misplays the ball ... too bad, offside resets.  But , we are not changing the law to prevent defensive challenges.


I truly hope you are right as it would be common sense.

However, this is what I was told, "If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, *which includes sticking their leg out to block a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside*. The offside interpretation was changed with the huge LOTG change in June 2015."

Again, I am not trying to argue with you and understand you are a very knowledgeable poster. I just want to get to the bottom of it once and for all.


----------



## baldref (Aug 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> @fuboldad1 and @timbuck, the rule changed ... but the concept of "deliberate" did not.  Just as in handling, the distance between when the ball is kicked versus where the defender makes contact with the ball is a significant factor.  In the case of a challenge where the stricker and defenders are a yard apart, the defender's attempt to block the shot by sticking their leg out is not a "deliberate play" on the ball.  Just like when a ball is kicked and hits a defender 5 yards away in the hand/arm (in a natural position) is generally not handling, because the defender had no time to react.  The further the defender is from the original kick makes it more likely that the Referee will find a deliberate play has occurred.
> 
> As it was explained to me, "we do not reward sucky play" if a defender misplays the ball ... too bad, offside resets.  But , we are not changing the law to prevent defensive challenges.


And as you have said, taking into account age and skill level as to what is a deliberate attempt to play the ball


----------



## MWN (Aug 29, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> I truly hope you are right as it would be common sense.
> 
> However, this is what I was told, "If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, *which includes sticking their leg out to block a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside*. The offside interpretation was changed with the huge LOTG change in June 2015."
> 
> Again, I am not trying to argue with you and understand you are a very knowledgeable poster. I just want to get to the bottom of it once and for all.


The IFAB Law states:

_A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (*except from a deliberate save by any opponent*) is not considered to have gained an advantage.

*A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal *with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).
_​I think the difference is you must take into account whether it was a save or not.  Almost all instances of a defender "blocking" the ball by throwing their leg out AND offside is at issue occurs on the near the defender's goal.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 29, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Law 11:
> 
> If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, which includes sticking their leg out, using their chest, shoulder, hip, or head to redirect the path of the ball, a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside. The offside interpretation was modified with the huge LOTG change in the 2016/2017 edition.


This makes sense.   The girl tried to block the ball from going to the attacker 2 yards past her.   Instead it deflected off the side of her chest, went to the attacker, who then had a break away and scored.   No offside.

Unfortunately it was with 20 seconds to go and we lost the final.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> @fuboldad1 and @timbuck, the rule changed ... but the concept of "deliberate" did not.  Just as in handling, the distance between when the ball is kicked versus where the defender makes contact with the ball is a significant factor.  In the case of a challenge where the stricker and defenders are a yard apart, the defender's attempt to block the shot by sticking their leg out is not a "deliberate play" on the ball.  Just like when a ball is kicked and hits a defender 5 yards away in the hand/arm (in a natural position) is generally not handling, because the defender had no time to react.  The further the defender is from the original kick makes it more likely that the Referee will find a deliberate play has occurred.
> 
> As it was explained to me, "we do not reward sucky play" if a defender misplays the ball ... too bad, offside resets.  But , we are not changing the law to prevent defensive challenges.


And, how is a player deliberately sticking their leg out to block/deflect/redirect not a deliberate play on the ball on the ball?  Did the player knowingly put their leg out to keep a pass from going past them to an opponent?  Then that is a deliberate play!  RPD is held monthly at numerous locations in So Cal, so go attend a session and ask the offside deliberate play question and I can guarantee you will walk away with a different and correct understanding of the concept.  Evidently you did not watch the videos I posted because one displays almost exactly what you say.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> I truly hope you are right as it would be common sense.
> 
> However, this is what I was told, "If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, *which includes sticking their leg out to block a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside*. The offside interpretation was changed with the huge LOTG change in June 2015."
> 
> Again, I am not trying to argue with you and understand you are a very knowledgeable poster. I just want to get to the bottom of it once and for all.


That would be June 2016.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 29, 2018)

MWN said:


> The IFAB Law states:
> 
> _A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (*except from a deliberate save by any opponent*) is not considered to have gained an advantage.
> 
> ...


I have never really disagreed with you before but I see players try to deliberately block/redirect passes and through ball all over the field and not just near the goal.  Read my long post above, watch the videos, and go to PRO Referee website and look at the training videos and you will realize your interpretation of offside is outdated.  No offense, just trying to educate.


----------



## espola (Aug 29, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I have never really disagreed with you before but I see players try to deliberately block/redirect passes and through ball all over the field and not just near the goal.  Read my long post above, watch the videos, and go to PRO Referee website and look at the training videos and you will realize your interpretation of offside is outdated.  No offense, just trying to educate.


Do you think they are deliberately trying to game the offside rule?


----------



## espola (Aug 29, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> This makes sense.   The girl tried to block the ball from going to the attacker 2 yards past her.   Instead it deflected off the side of her chest, went to the attacker, who then had a break away and scored.   No offside.
> 
> Unfortunately it was with 20 seconds to go and we lost the final.


Students of the history of the game see the recent developments to be a break with tradition.  Of course, the tradition started with no forward passes of a live ball being allowed anywhere on the field, so the break is not necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## coachrefparent (Aug 29, 2018)

baldref said:


> I just wanted to make the point that just because someone stuck a foot out and the ball bounced off of it, that isn't an automatic offside reset. more often it's not.


And your "point" is still absolutely wrong, as Surfref notes, despite you repeating it throughout this thread and confusing the issue further.


----------



## watfly (Aug 30, 2018)

baldref said:


> concur. both of those instances show a player playing the ball. not "making a save" attempt (blocking the ball).
> https://www.proassistantreferees.com/deliberate-deflection/


If you get a chance check out Baldref's link.  Most seemed fairly straightforward (like Surfref's links) but the clip from the BFA-GAB game seems to fall in this gray area that is being debated.  In this case the defender (that was quite a distance from where the ball was when initially kicked) deliberately, but awkwardly, reaches out and makes a touch on the ball.  The ruling was that offside did not reset because the player was off balance when he touched the ball and thus wasn't playing the ball. I'd be curious to hear what everyone's thought were on this call.

I know there is some chest thumping going on but this seems to be a legit, good faith dispute.  From my perspective it seems to turn on each individual's definition of "play(s)" and not so much on the definition of "deliberate".  Those that treat "play" as more of a noun have a higher standard for offside reset, whereas those that treat it as verb have a lower standard.  It could also be framed from the perspective of "makes a play with the ball" (higher standard) or "makes a play on the ball" (lower standard).

I will point out that the LOTG uses the term "deliberately plays the ball" and not the term "deliberately touches the ball" (and "touches the ball" is a term used in other areas of LOTG) so that implies to me from a layman's perspective that IFAB intended to have a higher standard to reset offside than just a mere deliberate touch.  Of course, I can't vouch for what is taught at ref meetings or what "legislating from the bench" occurs.


----------



## watfly (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> And, how is a player deliberately sticking their leg out to block/deflect/redirect not a deliberate play on the ball on the ball?  Did the player knowingly put their leg out to keep a pass from going past them to an opponent?  Then that is a deliberate play!  RPD is held monthly at numerous locations in So Cal, so go attend a session and ask the offside deliberate play question and I can guarantee you will walk away with a different and correct understanding of the concept.  Evidently you did not watch the videos I posted because one displays almost exactly what you say.


I think Clattenburg might disagree.

https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.com/liverpool-fc-news-coverage/2018/2/5/16973424/mark-clattenburg-tottenham-penalties-harry-kane-lamela-offside-liverpool-tottenham-var

"As to the first, while there was contact on the ball by Dejan Lovren as it was played to Kane, Clattenburg noted allowing a player in an offside position to collect a ball when it’s played _intentionally_ by a defender—as with a back pass—is different to it being touched in an attempt to stop it being played to an offside player."


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> And, how is a player deliberately sticking their leg out to block/deflect/redirect not a deliberate play on the ball on the ball?  Did the player knowingly put their leg out to keep a pass from going past them to an opponent?  Then that is a deliberate play!  RPD is held monthly at numerous locations in So Cal, so go attend a session and ask the offside deliberate play question and I can guarantee you will walk away with a different and correct understanding of the concept.  Evidently you did not watch the videos I posted because one displays almost exactly what you say.


Far be it from me, a baby ref, to challenge, but just wanted to point out in my level 8 test this winter I was told I was wrong when I made this argument.  

The other thing I don't get is why defender sticking leg out= deliberate play but a goalkeeper pushing the ball with an extension dive does not = deliberate play.  Someone care to reconcile for the sake of my education please?


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Aug 30, 2018)

MWN said:


> I mildly disagree with the above.  As I understand, "deliberately played" means more than simply guessing where the ball would go, but there is an intentional attempt to control (move the ball in a controlled direction) the ball beyond a simple block/deflection.  Sticking ones foot out to stop a shot requires guessing where the ball will leave the stricker's foot and the likely trajectory, which does not constitute a deliberate play of the ball and reset of offside, whereas, attempting to one-touch the ball to a teammate that goes awry and to an offside defender is a deliberate play,


I used the caveat, "as they get more skilled". I honestly sort of agree with you when it comes to "deliberately played", at the end of the day, it is the referee's judgement call. Whether they anticipated it or not is just 1 consideration. If it is enough to be a deliberate play would depend on if it was a "bang-bang" play as you described, or maybe they were 5 yards away when they anticipated the ball and that looks like more of a deliberate play. Its the gray area where you think, "I wouldn't have blamed them if it hit them from 5 yards away, too fast, but since they deliberately anticipated from 5 yards away, it is deliberate."

That being said, the same factors in judging "deliberately handling". I would be inclined to give the handling call even in a "bang-bang" 1 yard away play if they anticipated where the ball was going to go (higher level of course). There were a few controversial instances of this in the World Cup.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> I used the caveat, "as they get more skilled". I honestly sort of agree with you when it comes to "deliberately played", at the end of the day, it is the referee's judgement call. Whether they anticipated it or not is just 1 consideration. If it is enough to be a deliberate play would depend on if it was a "bang-bang" play as you described, or maybe they were 5 yards away when they anticipated the ball and that looks like more of a deliberate play. Its the gray area where you think, "I wouldn't have blamed them if it hit them from 5 yards away, too fast, but since they deliberately anticipated from 5 yards away, it is deliberate."
> 
> That being said, the same factors in judging "deliberately handling". I would be inclined to give the handling call even in a "bang-bang" 1 yard away play if they anticipated where the ball was going to go (higher level of course). There were a few controversial instances of this in the World Cup.


In general, I dislike changes to the LOTG that increase the incidents that depend on the Opinion of the Referee.  It's hard enough to train young players in one clearcut version of the Laws.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Aug 30, 2018)

espola said:


> In general, I dislike changes to the LOTG that increase the incidents that depend on the Opinion of the Referee.  It's hard enough to train young players in one clearcut version of the Laws.


At the top level, they are all pretty consistent in their application of judgement (Opinion) because it is carefully formed by PRO or other respective governing referee organization.
However at the youth level.... it can be a nightmare. Yes, because of some misinformation, but mostly because every level of skill requires a different set of "opinions" to keep the spirit of the law.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 30, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Far be it from me, a baby ref, to challenge, but just wanted to point out in my level 8 test this winter I was told I was wrong when I made this argument.
> 
> The other thing I don't get is why defender sticking leg out= deliberate play but a goalkeeper pushing the ball with an extension dive does not = deliberate play.  Someone care to reconcile for the sake of my education please?


The LOTG (see below) make an exception for a deliberate save by any opponent which includes a goal keeper.  I really did not want to bring this subject up because it will open a whole new can of worms and people will start arguing about "what is a deliberate save?"  I do think it is easier to determine what is a deliberate save compared to what is a deliberate play on the ball. 

LOTG 2018/2019 Pages 97/98:
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalized on becoming involved in active play by gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official, or opponent or been deliberately saved by any opponent.

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by an opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.


----------



## watfly (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> And, how is a player deliberately sticking their leg out to block/deflect/redirect not a deliberate play on the ball on the ball?  Did the player knowingly put their leg out to keep a pass from going past them to an opponent?  Then that is a deliberate play!  RPD is held monthly at numerous locations in So Cal, so go attend a session and ask the offside deliberate play question and I can guarantee you will walk away with a different and correct understanding of the concept.  Evidently you did not watch the videos I posted because one displays almost exactly what you say.


I don't think Howard Webb (or Geiger) agrees either:

https://www.ajc.com/sports/webb-opinion-the-disallowed-atlanta-united-goal/x1JNS4ITRXl1jeY6A9pyCN/

“When you see a player suddenly react, stick a leg out, for example, at a ball that’s coming at them with pace, that’s not considered a deliberate play of the ball,” Webb told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The LOTG (see below) make an exception for a deliberate save by any opponent which includes a goal keeper.  I really did not want to bring this subject up because it will open a whole new can of worms and people will start arguing about "what is a deliberate save?"  I do think it is easier to determine what is a deliberate save compared to what is a deliberate play on the ball.
> 
> LOTG 2018/2019 Pages 97/98:
> A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalized on becoming involved in active play by gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official, or opponent or been deliberately saved by any opponent.
> ...


Another thing referees don't like me to ask them is "Did you ever play this game?"


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The LOTG (see below) make an exception for a deliberate save by any opponent which includes a goal keeper.  I really did not want to bring this subject up because it will open a whole new can of worms and people will start arguing about "what is a deliberate save?"  I do think it is easier to determine what is a deliberate save compared to what is a deliberate play on the ball.
> 
> LOTG 2018/2019 Pages 97/98:
> A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalized on becoming involved in active play by gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official, or opponent or been deliberately saved by any opponent.
> ...



This is very help (learn from you guys all the time!).  So following situation: 1) offensive winger crosses the ball into the area but it is not a SOG, 2) keeper comes off the line to catch or punch the ball but mishandles the ball, 3) the ball goes over the keepers head backwards towards the goal but does not go into the goal, 4) the ball lands at the feet of the offensive striker who kicks it into the goal, and 5) the offensive striker would be otherwise offside but for the keeper handling the ball, because this isn't a deliberate save and the keeper deliberately played the ball, no offside?


----------



## Surfref (Aug 30, 2018)

watfly said:


> I don't think Howard Webb (or Geiger) agrees either:
> 
> https://www.ajc.com/sports/webb-opinion-the-disallowed-atlanta-united-goal/x1JNS4ITRXl1jeY6A9pyCN/
> 
> “When you see a player suddenly react, stick a leg out, for example, at a ball that’s coming at them with pace, that’s not considered a deliberate play of the ball,” Webb told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."


I think Webb does a good job at describing it: "defender making an instinctual move, rather than a deliberate move, on the ball."

Here is the actual play with the instinctual move and deflection: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2018-05-09-atlanta-united-fc-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/152622

This is the link that I posted earlier from the PRO site and is very similar to the one in the article.  The play in the article happens much faster and the players are closer so an instinctive deflection vice a deliberate play in this play:  https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> This is very help (learn from you guys all the time!).  So following situation: 1) offensive winger crosses the ball into the area but it is not a SOG, 2) keeper comes off the line to catch or punch the ball but mishandles the ball, 3) the ball goes over the keepers head backwards towards the goal but does not go into the goal, 4) the ball lands at the feet of the offensive striker who kicks it into the goal, and 5) the offensive striker would be otherwise offside but for the keeper handling the ball, because this isn't a deliberate save and the keeper deliberately played the ball, no offside?


I like the fact that this will add more offense to the game, but I don't like the fact that it was introduced in a way that will lead to an uncertain result.  Just kick it in there and see what the referee calls.


----------



## espola (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I think Webb does a good job at describing it: "defender making an instinctual move, rather than a deliberate move, on the ball."
> 
> Here is the actual play with the instinctual move and deflection: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2018-05-09-atlanta-united-fc-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/152622
> 
> This is the link that I posted earlier from the PRO site and is very similar to the one in the article.  The play in the article happens much faster and the players are closer so an instinctive deflection vice a deliberate play in this play:  https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs


Looks pretty deliberate to me.  What's the issue?

Another question - will NCAA be following along this path this year?  And High school?


----------



## Surfref (Aug 30, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> This is very help (learn from you guys all the time!).  So following situation: 1) offensive winger crosses the ball into the area but it is not a SOG, 2) keeper comes off the line to catch or punch the ball but mishandles the ball, 3) the ball goes over the keepers head backwards towards the goal but does not go into the goal, 4) the ball lands at the feet of the offensive striker who kicks it into the goal, and 5) the offensive striker would be otherwise offside but for the keeper handling the ball, because this isn't a deliberate save and the keeper deliberately played the ball, no offside?


If the trajectory of the ball would have taken it into the goal or very near the goal (a player could have reasonably thought the ball was going in the goal), then I would view that as a deliberate save and the attacker is offside.  If the ball was just being crossed and had no chance of going in the goal or near the goal, then I would say no deliberate save and yes deliberate play so no offside and GOOOOOOOOAL.  This stuff sometimes happens so fast that it is hard to tell and the referee must make a quick judgement call.  As in WATFLY's video, Geiger initially ruled a goal and had to use VAR to determine Offside and No Goal.  Since we do not have VAR on the youth fields, you just have to hope the referee and AR are working together as a team and have the knowledge and experience to get the call correct.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 30, 2018)

espola said:


> Looks pretty deliberate to me.  What's the issue?
> 
> Another question - will NCAA be following along this path this year?  And High school?


FIFA/IFAB/US Soccer have had this in place for a few years now, so it is nothing new.  I have not seen the latest HS rules and know it was called this way in all of the college games I saw last year.  I would expect HS to adopt it either this year or next.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 30, 2018)

There is very little likelihood that a referee or AR in a youth game gets this call correct.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2018-04-28-new-england-revolution-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/151094


----------



## Grace T. (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> If the trajectory of the ball would have taken it into the goal or very near the goal (a player could have reasonably thought the ball was going in the goal), then I would view that as a deliberate save and the attacker is offside.  If the ball was just being crossed and had no chance of going in the goal or near the goal, then I would say no deliberate save and yes deliberate play so no offside and GOOOOOOOOAL.  This stuff sometimes happens so fast that it is hard to tell and the referee must make a quick judgement call.  As in WATFLY's video, Geiger initially ruled a goal and had to use VAR to determine Offside and No Goal.  Since we do not have VAR on the youth fields, you just have to hope the referee and AR are working together as a team and have the knowledge and experience to get the call correct.



Even worse when you have only the one CR.  Even worse when the CR isn't physically fit and is barely moving from the center spot.  Most horrible when the CR doesn't even know the basics of the rule (let alone argue what is deliberate play).  My son (keeper) at a tournament a few weeks back had a SOG from almost the half launched at him.  Extension dive save pushes the ball to an unmarked striker on the other side of the field sitting inside the area.  Was sure the CR (who no doubt had done a ton of games that weekend and it was now the final game on a Sunday without ARs) had either blown the call or not seen it (because the ref had no prayer of outrunning the boys let alone the ball on that fast break), but lo and behold I watch the tape afterwards and there's a defender crept all the way into the far corner putting the rebounding striker back onside.  Not sure if the ref made the correct call, or just didn't know or bother with the offside rules, or the soccer gods of justice were just on his side that day, but sometimes it just works out.....it turned out to be the game winning point, sadly for us.


----------



## baldref (Aug 30, 2018)

Surfref said:


> There is very little likelihood that a referee or AR in a youth game gets this call correct.
> 
> https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2018-04-28-new-england-revolution-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/151094


that's very different in that the ref team knows there is VAR and as such, can afford not to make the call, even though it shouldn't have been made. It appears very much like the  attacking team kicks the ball to the player who scores, when in slow motion, you can tell differently. We don't have that luxury, unless we're completely sure the defender played the ball.


----------



## baldref (Aug 30, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> And your "point" is still absolutely wrong, as Surfref notes, despite you repeating it throughout this thread and confusing the issue further.


i disagree.


----------



## socalkdg (Sep 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> LOTG 2018/2019 Pages 97/98:
> A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalized on becoming involved in active play by gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official, or opponent or been deliberately saved by any opponent.
> 
> A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by an opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.


Our team has been working on playing back to my daughter at keeper.   This past Saturday,  one of our girls plays it back to her,  even though an opponent is about 1/3 of the way towards her, in a possible offside position.   She doesn't pass it hard enough, their player makes a run for it, just as she gets to it and makes her first touch my daughter slide tackles the ball away for a save.   Her dad then says that the girl was offside and wondered why the whistle wasn't blown.  I mention that I think since it was played deliberately back the girl isn't considered offside.  He says he doesn't think his daughter knew that rule either.  Lesson learned, cool video for me, and no harm done.


----------



## TangoCity (Sep 10, 2018)

And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol

Side view: 




Behind Goal view:


----------



## baldref (Sep 10, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
> 
> Side view:
> 
> ...




From the side view, it appears #10 was making a run at the ball, and therefore that might have been what the AR called. But, I agree that she did not participate, which is shown clearly on the behind goal view. The AR doesn't have that view. Knowing she was in an offside position, she probably should have not ran towards the goal? But, they got it wrong, it should have been a goal.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 10, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
> 
> Side view:
> 
> ...


Should have been a goal. Hopefully the center referee was experienced enough to realize that neither #2 or #10 actually played the ball or interfered with play or obstructed the keeper.  That is one of those times that the Center Referee must take charge and wave the flag down.

The last two weeks of the summer I worked with several referees that did not fully understand Law 11 and how to implement it. Even this past weekend after a lengthy pregame discussion which included specific guidance on Offside, I still had two ARs screw up the calls because they were using the Law 11 interpretation from the mid-2000's and raising the flag while even with the last defender.  With all of the training we have received on the changes to Law 11 over the past several years, some ARs have still not changed the way and where they call Offside.  I had to wave down Offside calls at least twice per game from two ARs and had discussions with them at halftime.  Surprise, these were not new referees but older referees that just could not adapt or did not want to adapt to the Law 11 changes.  If I hear one more AR say that they raised the flag early because it was a hospital ball when the attacker was still 10-20 yards away from the keeper, I am going to lose my mind.  Many coaches are aware of the rule change to Law 11 and coach their players to exploit it and run after the ball to cause the keeper to rush to kick it and the player will either stop or change direction away from the ball when they are 5-10 yards away from the ball which is not within playing distance of the ball.  The restart is where the player played the ball or interfered with play and not even with the last defender.  Come on referees, get this right so the whole crew does not get yelled at because of an Offside call screw up.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 10, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
> 
> Side view:
> 
> ...


Why is the Keeper wearing a light colored jersey that is a similar light color as the field players.  Come on Referees, get the little things right and the other stuff will fall into place.

You should send those videos to the referee association.  They would make some good training videos.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 10, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
> 
> Side view:
> 
> ...


My thoughts:  I could see where a referee might, in real time, with no luxury of review (I watched the videos half a dozen times each) have determined that #10:
#1 interfered with the keeper's line of vision
#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
(p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG)

At the moment the shot is taken, #10 is directly in the line of vision from the keeper to the ball, and the keeper seems to slowly react to the shot only after #10 moves to her left (yes there are other players in the line of vision as well.)

Would be a hard one to overturn, even on VAR, if the AR gave #1 as a basis for the offside call (I'm sure the keeper would agree .)


----------



## timbuck (Sep 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Why is the Keeper wearing a light colored jersey that is a similar light color as the field players.  Come on Referees, get the little things right and the other stuff will fall into place.
> 
> You should send those videos to the referee association.  They would make some good training videos.


I noticed that too.
Tournament game a few weeks ago. Both team were in dark jerseys but very contrasting color. 
Ref said -  I’m color blind. We need one of the teams to be in white.


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Sep 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Why is the Keeper wearing a light colored jersey that is a similar light color as the field players.  Come on Referees, get the little things right and the other stuff will fall into place.
> 
> You should send those videos to the referee association.  They would make some good training videos.


GK jersey looks light green in the side view.  Maybe back camera not as good picking up color?


----------



## Surfref (Sep 10, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> My thoughts:  I could see where a referee might, in real time, with no luxury of review (I watched the videos half a dozen times each) have determined that #10:
> #1 interfered with the keeper's line of vision
> #2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
> (p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG)
> ...


#2 and #10 did not clearly obstruct the view of the goalkeeper.  The keeper has a clear view of player that kicked the ball which is evident because the keeper starts moving as soon as the ball is kicked and started to move back to save the ball before either of those players got near her.  Go to the PRO Referee website and look at the examples of clearly obstructing the view of an opponent, the positioning of #2 and #10 would easily NOT meet the criteria.  And, I am not sure how the AR would be able to determine the #2 or #10 clearly obstructed the view.  No way could the AR make that call.  That would be a CR call.

As for your second statement, “#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
(p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG).” That is a complete misinterpretation of Law 11 and has no bearing on the offside call.  It never fails that in every training session some knucklehead asks the question, “the offside player influenced the defender to move toward them.”  Every time the US Soccer Instructor says that is not one of the criteria to determine offside.  Yes, every time.

The Referee crew got the call wrong and it should have been a goal. Yes, referees sometimes make mistake even when they get together and talk.  If you don’t believe me send a copy of the two videos and your post to Randy.
Randall Reyes
State Director of Instruction 
Lawfive01@yahoo.com


----------



## Surfref (Sep 10, 2018)

Tea and Busquets said:


> GK jersey looks light green in the side view.  Maybe back camera not as good picking up color?


I first noticed the light colored keeper jersey in the side shot video.  That keepers jersey is too close in color to the field players.  The rule of thumb is that there should be 5 distinctly different colored jerseys on the field: team A keeper, team A field players, team B keeper, team B field players and referees.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> #2 and #10 did not clearly obstruct the view of the goalkeeper.  The keeper has a clear view of player that kicked the ball which is evident because the keeper starts moving as soon as the ball is kicked and started to move back to save the ball before either of those players got near her.  Go to the PRO Referee website and look at the examples of clearly obstructing the view of an opponent, the positioning of #2 and #10 would easily NOT meet the criteria.  And, I am not sure how the AR would be able to determine the #2 or #10 clearly obstructed the view.  No way could the AR make that call.  That would be a CR call.
> 
> As for your second statement, “#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
> (p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG).” That is a complete misinterpretation of Law 11 and has no bearing on the offside call.  It never fails that in every training session some knucklehead asks the question, “the offside player influenced the defender to move toward them.”  Every time the US Soccer Instructor says that is not one of the criteria to determine offside.  Yes, every time.
> ...


#1 and #2 were points 1 and 2. You didn't read the preceding sentence where points #1 and #2 were both referring to player number 10. My point was not that they were right on both, but that that in real time, without the benefit of 2 different camera replay angles, the referees could have made these determination, rightly or wrongly, not based upon a misunderstanding of the laws, knucklehead, errr,  kook. 

Both the AR and center could have determined that PLAYER #10 was directly blocking the keeper's view when the shot the was taken.  #10 is directly in the line of sight of the keeper at 4.2 seconds (of the behind the goal video) when the shot it taken, and the keeper's reaction is delayed. No disputing that fact.  Can't argue with your perception which is wrong, but OK kook. Back to Cardiff.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 10, 2018)

Surfref said:


> As for your second statement, “#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
> (p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG).” That is a complete misinterpretation of Law 11 and has no bearing on the offside call.  It never fails that in every training session some knucklehead asks the question, “the offside player influenced the defender to move toward them.”  Every time the US Soccer Instructor says that is not one of the criteria to determine offside.  Yes, every time.


Hey, I was that referee 5-6 years ago. Patience is the first tool needed in education. Don't go and get frustrated with ill-informed referees that make this interpretation based on "common sense" definitions. This is a common misconception that most players have, and therefore most referees because most of them started out as players. It is only natural to see the phrase "interfere with an opponent" and think back to a time when you were a defender and had an attacker barreling down towards you and you panic kicked it out, or worse, shank it towards your own goal. Of course you feel like a throw in to the attackers is an unfair reward after being intimidated by an otherwise offside attacker. You feel like your decision making process was "interfered with".

If you dig hard enough into the Laws, then yes you can find that it does not think that affecting the decision-making process of a player constitutes interference. We should only judge the physical, observable actions, because any mental speculation has no end.
But what Grade 8 really takes the time to dig for not readily available information. Ask and be a fool for a minute, ask not and be a fool for life.

Your frustration should be with the education system. If it is such a common question, then it should be standard in every lesson on offside to address this issue. It should not take more than 1 minute if done properly.
The whole referee education program really is hastily thrown together and subpar. All the lessons are basically impromptu and thrown together last minute, and all the information from USSF is too diluted. Education needs to come from each association and each one should hire one part-time person_ who gets paid_ to dedicate their time to referee education.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 11, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Hey, I was that referee 5-6 years ago. Patience is the first tool needed in education. Don't go and get frustrated with ill-informed referees that make this interpretation based on "common sense" definitions. This is a common misconception that most players have, and therefore most referees because most of them started out as players. It is only natural to see the phrase "interfere with an opponent" and think back to a time when you were a defender and had an attacker barreling down towards you and you panic kicked it out, or worse, shank it towards your own goal. Of course you feel like a throw in to the attackers is an unfair reward after being intimidated by an otherwise offside attacker. You feel like your decision making process was "interfered with".
> 
> If you dig hard enough into the Laws, then yes you can find that it does not think that affecting the decision-making process of a player constitutes interference. We should only judge the physical, observable actions, because any mental speculation has no end.
> But what Grade 8 really takes the time to dig for not readily available information. Ask and be a fool for a minute, ask not and be a fool for life.
> ...


Good explanation.  I have been frustrated with a good number of  referees that I have worked with over the past month, because they cannot get Law 11 correct and for some reason have not adopted the updated interpretation.  These referees have not been the new Grade 8's, but older Grade 8, 7, 16 referees that have been around for a while.  Those new Grade 8's have actually been doing a good job with their Law 11 calls.  The "obstruction of the view" and "interfere with an opponent" is taught in the Offside presentations at RPD and Association meetings and there are still knucklehead referees that will argue and not believe the correct information from the instructors. 

What makes the situation worse is when I emphasize the new interpretation of Law 11 in my pre-game and the AR (Grade 7) does not follow any of the direction.  Last weekend I had blue player #2 in an offside position (5+ yards offside) with another blue player #3 on the far side in an onside position and the ball was played long over the top and blue #2 started to run after the ball but was easily 20-25 yards behind the ball and blue #3 was also running after the ball but from a different angle.  The AR stopped in line with the last defender, raised his flag and gave it a wiggle.  My thought was that I had not seen a foul so I blew the whistle and the AR indicates an Offside with his flag.  Now I, the coaches and players are consfused.  The players and coach for the blue team are yelling that the player was never close enough to play the ball and blue #3 was going to get the ball.  My AR was completely wrong and the coach and players absolutly correct.  I talked to my AR who said that #2 was distracting the defenders and making the defenders run toward him and he wiggled the flag to get my attention.  The AR was completely wrong with his interpretation and actions and went completely against what I talked about in my pre-game.  My problem was now to either admit the mistake and everyone would know that we screwed up as a referee team or give the IDFK for the bad Offside call.  I appoligized for the mistake to the players and dropped the ball which the red team kicked out for a blue throw in.  That AR's credibility was shot and I ended up having to ask the blue coach to stop yelling at the AR everytime he made a call.  The blue coach told me at halftime that his team practices plays where a player will start in an Offside position, run after the ball and then stop and allow the teammate to come in and get the ball and go toward goal.  He said it has resulted in several goals, since some defenders freeze and raise their hands thinking blue #2 was Offside and going to get called for it. My point with this story is that the coaches and players know what the updated Offside interpretations are and devise plays around them.  When referees choose to not stay updated on the LOTG, make up their own interpretation, or ignore the pre-game discussion they make the entire referee crew look bad and do a diservice to the players and game.     

The instruction I receive during the referee training sessions is helpful because I always walk away having learned something new and got a refresher on something.  My biggest complaint about the training is the instructors (RPD and Assoc meetings) is the poor time management.  Referees are expected to know how to manage time, but the instructors seem to have a difficult time managing their time.  It is frustrating when I habve to work for 9 hours at my regular job, then go to a referee meeting that is supposed to end at 8pm or 9pm and the meeting runs 30-60 over the time because the instructor could not manage the time.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 11, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> #1 and #2 were points 1 and 2. You didn't read the preceding sentence where points #1 and #2 were both referring to player number 10. My point was not that they were right on both, but that that in real time, without the benefit of 2 different camera replay angles, the referees could have made these determination, rightly or wrongly, not based upon a misunderstanding of the laws, knucklehead, errr,  kook.
> 
> Both the AR and center could have determined that PLAYER #10 was directly blocking the keeper's view when the shot the was taken.  #10 is directly in the line of sight of the keeper at 4.2 seconds (of the behind the goal video) when the shot it taken, and the keeper's reaction is delayed. No disputing that fact.  Can't argue with your perception which is wrong, but OK kook. Back to Cardiff.


Thank you for the clarification of the numbers.  I was not refering to you as a knucklehead, but to those referees that have sat through the Offside training several times and continue to ask the same question everytime and not believe was is being told to them.

There basically were two different angles of view during the play because the CR had a good view looking toward the goal and the AR had a decent view (would have been better if he was inline with the last defender).  Referee crews have got to get these calls correct.  Like I said, go to PRO Referee website and look up Offside "clearly obstructed view" videos.  Here is a link to two very good explanations and videos for Obstructing the View, and if these two are not Offside for Clearly Obstructing the View then there is no way the play in question on this thread is Offside.  http://proreferees.com/2017/04/05/play-of-the-week-2017-week-5/


----------



## twoclubpapa (Sep 11, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Good explanation.  I have been frustrated with a good number of  referees that I have worked with over the past month, because they cannot get Law 11 correct and for some reason have not adopted the updated interpretation.  These referees have not been the new Grade 8's, but older Grade 8, 7, 16 referees that have been around for a while.


Happens in both club and AYSO.  I was mentoring some AYSO assistant referees new to 14U games this past Saturday and had an instance where one of my mentee ARs properly flagged as offside a player who had been in an offside position at the time of a shot ran in and put the loose ball from the GK save into the net.  The experienced AYSO/USSF referee came over and the discussion showed that he thought that the deliberate play by the GK in making the save reset the offside. I had the chance to correct his understanding.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 11, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Good explanation.  I have been frustrated with a good number of  referees that I have worked with over the past month, because they cannot get Law 11 correct and for some reason have not adopted the updated interpretation.  These referees have not been the new Grade 8's, but older Grade 8, 7, 16 referees that have been around for a while.  Those new Grade 8's have actually been doing a good job with their Law 11 calls.  The "obstruction of the view" and "interfere with an opponent" is taught in the Offside presentations at RPD and Association meetings and there are still knucklehead referees that will argue and not believe the correct information from the instructors.
> 
> What makes the situation worse is when I emphasize the new interpretation of Law 11 in my pre-game and the AR (Grade 7) does not follow any of the direction.  Last weekend I had blue player #2 in an offside position (5+ yards offside) with another blue player #3 on the far side in an onside position and the ball was played long over the top and blue #2 started to run after the ball but was easily 20-25 yards behind the ball and blue #3 was also running after the ball but from a different angle.  The AR stopped in line with the last defender, raised his flag and gave it a wiggle.  My thought was that I had not seen a foul so I blew the whistle and the AR indicates an Offside with his flag.  Now I, the coaches and players are consfused.  The players and coach for the blue team are yelling that the player was never close enough to play the ball and blue #3 was going to get the ball.  My AR was completely wrong and the coach and players absolutly correct.  I talked to my AR who said that #2 was distracting the defenders and making the defenders run toward him and he wiggled the flag to get my attention.  The AR was completely wrong with his interpretation and actions and went completely against what I talked about in my pre-game.  My problem was now to either admit the mistake and everyone would know that we screwed up as a referee team or give the IDFK for the bad Offside call.  I appoligized for the mistake to the players and dropped the ball which the red team kicked out for a blue throw in.  That AR's credibility was shot and I ended up having to ask the blue coach to stop yelling at the AR everytime he made a call.  The blue coach told me at halftime that his team practices plays where a player will start in an Offside position, run after the ball and then stop and allow the teammate to come in and get the ball and go toward goal.  He said it has resulted in several goals, since some defenders freeze and raise their hands thinking blue #2 was Offside and going to get called for it. My point with this story is that the coaches and players know what the updated Offside interpretations are and devise plays around them.  When referees choose to not stay updated on the LOTG, make up their own interpretation, or ignore the pre-game discussion they make the entire referee crew look bad and do a diservice to the players and game.
> 
> The instruction I receive during the referee training sessions is helpful because I always walk away having learned something new and got a refresher on something.  My biggest complaint about the training is the instructors (RPD and Assoc meetings) is the poor time management.  Referees are expected to know how to manage time, but the instructors seem to have a difficult time managing their time.  It is frustrating when I habve to work for 9 hours at my regular job, then go to a referee meeting that is supposed to end at 8pm or 9pm and the meeting runs 30-60 over the time because the instructor could not manage the time.


One instructor is not very clear and will go on many tangents that are hard to follow ("well you should do this in this league, but league I'd just do this, but most of the time, go with that over there") and the other instructor, while extremely patient, is almost too patient and will respond verbosely, albeit clearly, to questions 95% of the room already knew.
Hint, both of these instructors share the same name.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 17, 2018)

And, the incorrect Offside calls are still happening.  Week two of League season and I am working with another referee who does not follow the 2018/2019 LOTG Law 11 or follow what I tell them in the pre-game. The AR's screw ups actually taught him a couple lessons, but got me (Center) yelled at by both coaches.  The AR did not listen when I told him to, "wait and see if the attacker in an offside position actually plays the ball or interferes with play."  First half with score 0-0, attacking third of the field, the ball gets passed through the defense to the blue player in an offside position who starts to run after the ball but stops and changes direction away from the ball about 4-5 yards from the ball when the ball was at the top of the penalty area, the white defenders stop when they see the AR raise his flag, I yell at him "no offside lower the flag", another blue attacker who was in an onside position comes in and gets a shot off that misses wide.  All of this happened within about 3 seconds.  AR should not have raised his flag until the offside blue attacker played the ball.  Blue coach yells at me that his team practices that play and the AR threw off the timing and distracted his players.  White coach is yelling that I should have called the offside because the AR raised the flag. I get the game going quickly and the coaches calm down. 

Same AR in the same game during the second half.  Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper.  A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first.  With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside.  I ignore him and wait to see what will happen.  Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play.  I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball.  After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early.  I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what *we think might happen*.  I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball.  He said "no."  My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?"  His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball."  Me, "Exactly."  Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.


----------



## futboldad1 (Sep 17, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Same AR in the same game during the second half.  Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper.  A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first.  With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside.  I ignore him and wait to see what will happen.  Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play.  I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball.  After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early.  I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what *we think might happen*.  *I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball.  He said "no."*  My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?"  His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball."  Me, "Exactly."  Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.


I very much enjoy your posts. But, as I see it, that analogy is not the best given that whoever reaches the ball first the play is legal, wheres if the white attacker gets there before the GK it's not a legal play....so why risk the collision? Just to make a point? Surely there has to be room for common sense when interpreting LOTG? There is absolutely something I could be missing or not understanding in this. 

Again, I'm not bashing you. You bring a lot of value to the forum.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 17, 2018)

Surfref said:


> And, the incorrect Offside calls are still happening.  Week two of League season and I am working with another referee who does not follow the 2018/2019 LOTG Law 11 or follow what I tell them in the pre-game. The AR's screw ups actually taught him a couple lessons, but got me (Center) yelled at by both coaches.  The AR did not listen when I told him to, "wait and see if the attacker in an offside position actually plays the ball or interferes with play."  First half with score 0-0, attacking third of the field, the ball gets passed through the defense to the blue player in an offside position who starts to run after the ball but stops and changes direction away from the ball about 4-5 yards from the ball when the ball was at the top of the penalty area, the white defenders stop when they see the AR raise his flag, I yell at him "no offside lower the flag", another blue attacker who was in an onside position comes in and gets a shot off that misses wide.  All of this happened within about 3 seconds.  AR should not have raised his flag until the offside blue attacker played the ball.  Blue coach yells at me that his team practices that play and the AR threw off the timing and distracted his players.  White coach is yelling that I should have called the offside because the AR raised the flag. I get the game going quickly and the coaches calm down.
> .


Same situation for me this weekend as an AR but in the opposite. I hold for second waiting to raise whether or not the offending player in the offside position will play the ball or otherwise interfere with play while a defender goes to collect the ball.  As soon as the kick happens, the parents bench goes crazy yelling "offside offside".  I hold my flag down and get a nod from the CR who acknowledges what's happening.  CR gets flack for it.  I had a great CR who I hope will agree to be my mentor.  CR clearly explained the rule to the coach at the half who was unhappy I was slow to raise my flag.

I also had 2 of the goalkeeper save situations.  In the first, the rebound came and the offensive player was VERY VERY clearly in a way offside position when the play was made.  Player and coach argued but CR just said "you were way offside" and called for the kick.  CR (same guy) had the guts to disallow the goal.  On the second with a different CR, the player was just barely onside when the play was made but then she moved past the defensive line to kick the rebound....goal....parents screamed for offside.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 17, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> I very much enjoy your posts. But, as I see it, that analogy is not the best given that whoever reaches the ball first the play is legal, wheres if the white attacker gets there before the GK it's not a legal play....so why risk the collision? Just to make a point? Surely there has to be room for common sense when interpreting LOTG? There is absolutely something I could be missing or not understanding in this.
> 
> Again, I'm not bashing you. You bring a lot of value to the forum.


I completely understand your point of view and it took me a while to adjust to the new interpretation.  I wish my Jedi powers could help the Force show me the future to prevent all injuries on the field, but that is just not possible.  There is a really fine line between the "stop play early common sense approach" and affecting the outcome of the game by deviating from the LOTG.

The offside player has not violated Law 11 and the play is perfectly legal up until the point the offside attacker plays the ball or interferes with play. I have seen many of these plays where the keeper blasts the ball up field to a teammate that either gets a shot off or starts a promising attack or the keeper gets the ball in their hands and is able to play the ball up field to a teammate.  These scenarios happen far more often then a collision between a keeper and offside opponent.  I can count on one hand how many minor collisions over the past 10 years I have had in my games between an offside player and a keeper and not one has resulted in an injury.  The only time I have had a player injured was when the keeper got to the ball first and blasted a low line drive up field and the offside attacker (good 15 yards from the keeper) jumped trying to head the ball and took the ball in the face breaking his nose.  I have also seen many times where the offside player realizes they are offside or hears the coach, teammates or spectators yelling "Offside" and either stop or change direction before getting to the ball.  If you make the offside call too early, then you are penalizing a player and team that should not be penalized. A good number of coaches and U14 and above players are aware of the Law 11 changes and tactically exploit the changes.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 17, 2018)

Surfref said:


> And, the incorrect Offside calls are still happening.  Week two of League season and I am working with another referee who does not follow the 2018/2019 LOTG Law 11 or follow what I tell them in the pre-game. The AR's screw ups actually taught him a couple lessons, but got me (Center) yelled at by both coaches.  The AR did not listen when I told him to, "wait and see if the attacker in an offside position actually plays the ball or interferes with play."  First half with score 0-0, attacking third of the field, the ball gets passed through the defense to the blue player in an offside position who starts to run after the ball but stops and changes direction away from the ball about 4-5 yards from the ball when the ball was at the top of the penalty area, the white defenders stop when they see the AR raise his flag, I yell at him "no offside lower the flag", another blue attacker who was in an onside position comes in and gets a shot off that misses wide.  All of this happened within about 3 seconds.  AR should not have raised his flag until the offside blue attacker played the ball.  Blue coach yells at me that his team practices that play and the AR threw off the timing and distracted his players.  White coach is yelling that I should have called the offside because the AR raised the flag. I get the game going quickly and the coaches calm down.
> 
> Same AR in the same game during the second half.  Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper.  A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first.  With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside.  I ignore him and wait to see what will happen.  Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play.  I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball.  After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early.  I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what *we think might happen*.  I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball.  He said "no."  My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?"  His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball."  Me, "Exactly."  Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.


 Sometimes referees just need to "piss on the electric fence". It's one thing to learn all this and watch videos in the classroom, and its another thing to see your decision affect play.

I will never forget the call I made 6 years ago (before the law emphasis change so they didn't even really teach it that much) as an AR in a high-ish level older boys game. I felt a little overwhelmed keeping up with the 2nd to last defender and 1 time, I raise my flag just as a player in an offside position is in the process of kicking the ball. The problem: he completely whiffed and some onside speedy Gonzales winger takes it and scores while the defense all stopped defending because my flag was up until I saw the winger. 2-1 game, that was the deciding goal.

Needless to say, the center got flamed to no end, and then I was given a helpful, understanding, stern, but not angry lecture by the Center after the game. I do the same thing every time is comes up when I'm the Center now.


----------



## espola (Sep 17, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Sometimes referees just need to "piss on the electric fence". It's one thing to learn all this and watch videos in the classroom, and its another thing to see your decision affect play.
> 
> I will never forget the call I made 6 years ago (before the law emphasis change so they didn't even really teach it that much) as an AR in a high-ish level older boys game. I felt a little overwhelmed keeping up with the 2nd to last defender and 1 time, I raise my flag just as a player in an offside position is in the process of kicking the ball. The problem: he completely whiffed and some onside speedy Gonzales winger takes it and scores while the defense all stopped defending because my flag was up until I saw the winger. 2-1 game, that was the deciding goal.
> 
> Needless to say, the center got flamed to no end, and then I was given a helpful, understanding, stern, but not angry lecture by the Center after the game. I do the same thing every time is comes up when I'm the Center now.


You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball.  Did I misunderstand?


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 17, 2018)

espola said:


> You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball.  Did I misunderstand?


That is exactly what I am implying. https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0113/0254/Circular_LoG_Additional_Guidance_on_Law_11_v2.0_EN.pdf

Merely being in the process of kicking the ball is not making a play on the ball. It needs to meet 3 criteria:
1: He needs to make a *CLEAR* (attempted) play on the ball
2. He needs to be *CLOSE* to the ball.
3. He needs to have an* IMPACT* on the opponent

In the situation I describe above, the attacker who whiffed the ball  made a *CLEAR* attempt, he was *CLOSE* when he made the attempt, but he did *not* have *IMPACT*. This is because the defender needed to run toward goal anyway, so the defenders actions were not impactful enough to be deemed interference.
"*IMPACT* applies to an opponent’s ability (or potential) to play the ball and will include situations where an opponent’s movement to play the ball is delayed, hindered or prevented by the offside player"
The defender running toward goal was not hindered, delayed, or prevented.

When a player is in an offside position (PIOP), they will always have some sort of impact on their opponents. Merely affecting the decision making process is not enough to constitute interference. Just because you are the closest player to goal (albeit, offside) and that causes the defenders to focus on you and lose track of the winger, does not mean you hindered, delayed, or prevented any movement.
Let us say the PIOP was 10 yards from goal instead of 40 yards from goal as in my example. This player would then force the goalie to adjust to the PIOP which would DELAY his positioning needed to defend from the onside winger. This would then be impacting and therefore Offside.

Yes, offside really is that complicated. This makes it the 2nd most hard to interpret and explain law of the game. 2nd only to handling.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 18, 2018)

espola said:


> You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball.  Did I misunderstand?


Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball  (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.




The correct answer according to the higher ups is: allow the goal, no offside offense. PIOP did not make enough of an impact on her opponents.


----------



## espola (Sep 18, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> That is exactly what I am implying. https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0113/0254/Circular_LoG_Additional_Guidance_on_Law_11_v2.0_EN.pdf
> 
> Merely being in the process of kicking the ball is not making a play on the ball. It needs to meet 3 criteria:
> 1: He needs to make a *CLEAR* (attempted) play on the ball
> ...


Your link doesn't support your position very well.


----------



## espola (Sep 18, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball  (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The opponents did not react to her at all.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 18, 2018)

espola said:


> The opponents did not react to her at all.


Duh, that is one of the reasons there was no offside call.


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Sep 18, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball  (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That video seems to show an attempt to control the ball, not pulling the foot back and 'whiffing the kick.' It's hard to imagine a scenario where a player attempts to _kick _the ball and misses and that action doesn't affect an opponent.  Even in the situation you describe in your initial post, it seems far fetched that the defenders closest to the ball would not be at least delayed when a player in an offside position tries to kick a ball and misses it.  I suppose one _might_ be able to argue it, but it would be a hard sell.  I don't know, maybe I'm just picturing it wrong.  If you can dig up a video that shows a scenario where that is true, I'd love to see it.


----------



## Tea and Busquets (Sep 18, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Duh, that is one of the reasons there was no offside call.


You sure can come off condescending sometimes!


----------



## socalkdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Watch the keeper very closely.   Makes a slight move(approx 2 steps) towards the center player that was offside who lets the ball go past her foot, then a slight angle turn to her left to the player that was onside and actually plays the ball.  To me that while it was small, it was a reaction by the keeper.   I slowed it down to quarter speed and you can see two different angles on the keepers run out.


----------



## futboldad1 (Sep 18, 2018)

@Surfref 

Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given. 

I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 18, 2018)

I guess this all means that IFAB needs clarifications for its clarifications LOL.


----------



## baldref (Sep 19, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> @Surfref
> 
> Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given.
> 
> I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.


that was definitely an example of what is being discussed. 
he didn't play the ball or play a defender trying to play the ball. but at full speed in a live game, it wouldn't be too hard to see that call being made as offside.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 19, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> I guess this all means that IFAB needs clarifications for its clarifications LOL.


Or some of us referees, coaches, and parents just need to chill out. I love when people compare what is called (and how it is called) at games of 9 year olds,  by often entry level grade 8 referees who never played soccer, to the officiating of those in the EPL. Pure comedy.


----------



## RedNevilles (Sep 19, 2018)

@Surfref  have all referees been told the new IFAB rules, as this past weekend I had one I told this to and he said the rules had not been changed and it was not when the player played the ball?

While the higher referees may take time to read these things I’m not sure most do.


----------



## watfly (Sep 19, 2018)

futboldad1 said:


> @Surfref
> 
> Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given.
> 
> I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.





baldref said:


> that was definitely an example of what is being discussed.
> he didn't play the ball or play a defender trying to play the ball. but at full speed in a live game, it wouldn't be too hard to see that call being made as offside.


I'd be curious to know whether the AR didn't call offside because (a) he believed Cavani was in an offside position but didn't interfere with play or (b) just simply that he didn't believe Cavani was in an offside position.  Regardless, its a good discussion example.  IMHO I don't think Cavani's whiff rises to the level of interfering with play or opponent.


----------



## watfly (Sep 19, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what *we think might happen*.


Actually there is.  After "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG in 2005, IFAB issued advice to the application of the law that stated:

"If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalised for interfering with an opponent."

https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/news/y=2005/m=8/news=ifab-clarifies-the-field-application-law-offside-99799.html


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

Tea and Busquets said:


> You sure can come off condescending sometimes!


It all depends on who it is and how my day is going.  My wife is not as nice as you are and instead of using condescending just says I am a smart ass.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

RedNevilles said:


> @Surfref  have all referees been told the new IFAB rules, as this past weekend I had one I told this to and he said the rules had not been changed and it was not when the player played the ball?
> 
> While the higher referees may take time to read these things I’m not sure most do.


Let me guess, the referee was older (35+)?

The Law 11 change actually occurred a couple years ago.  Every year Grade 8 and Grade 7 referees Most of the referees you see on your games)  must attend 5 hours of continuing referee education and they must complete 16-18 online training modules that include a test for each module. Referees get far more training compared to coaches that are not required to attend any continuing education or online training. The online modules include a Law 11 Offside section and Offside is discussed often at the monthly referee association meetings/training.  So, I would think that by now referees would know about the changes.  But, there are referees that don't attend all of the training, have someone else complete their online training for them, don't pay attention, come late to training or just don't care.  These are the referees that get the calls wrong and get the good referees yelled at.  Most referees I know pride themselves on staying current with the ever changing LOTG and interpretations.


----------



## baldref (Sep 19, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Let me guess, the referee was older (35+)?


or 85+


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

watfly said:


> I'd be curious to know whether the AR didn't call offside because (a) he believed Cavani was in an offside position but didn't interfere with play or (b) just simply that he didn't believe Cavani was in an offside position.  Regardless, its a good discussion example.  IMHO I don't think Cavani's whiff rises to the level of interfering with play or opponent.


I would imagine the CR and AR talked over the headsets and decided no offside.  At game speed that might be a hard one to get correct especially on our fields if the CR or AR are looking into the sun.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

watfly said:


> Actually there is.  After "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG in 2005, IFAB issued advice to the application of the law that stated:
> 
> "If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalised for interfering with an opponent."
> 
> https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/news/y=2005/m=8/news=ifab-clarifies-the-field-application-law-offside-99799.html


I would agree with you if it was 2005 or 2006, but 2005 is ancient history.  There have been numerous changes since 2005 and that unfortunately does not apply to the 2018/2019 LOTG.  It would be nice to have in there, but there would be too much gray area for referees to determine and interpret what "potential for physical contact" means.  I remember those years and remember some crazy calls that the AR or CR would use the explanation of "I thought there was going to be contact between the players."  I even saw an AR raise the flag and use that excuse when the player and keeper were 50 yards apart. Definitely do not want to go back to those days.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

baldref said:


> or 85+


 Yes, unfortunately 65+ years old on olders games that they should not be on.  Don't even get me started on referees working games beyond their physical abilities.  There is nothing I hate more than seeing an older slower referee on an olders game and they cannot even keep up as an AR with the last defender.  Face reality old guys and move down to the ages that you can keep up.  Those 13 year old and younger players would love to have a good experienced referee on their games.  Plus those younger kids are fun to referee and they do not usually yell at you.


----------



## baldref (Sep 19, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Yes, unfortunately 65+ years old on olders games that they should not be on.  Don't even get me started on referees working games beyond their physical abilities.  There is nothing I hate more than seeing an older slower referee on an olders game and they cannot even keep up as an AR with the last defender.  Face reality old guys and move down to the ages that you can keep up.  Those 13 year old and younger players would love to have a good experienced referee on their games.  Plus those younger kids are fun to referee and they do not usually yell at you.


oh... so you're saying it's time for me to move on. the truth hurts you know.....


----------



## Surfref (Sep 19, 2018)

baldref said:


> oh... so you're saying it's time for me to move on. the truth hurts you know.....


If some of those old guys can still do olders and college then you and I are good for at least another 15ish years.


----------



## Soccer Dad & Ref (Sep 19, 2018)

Agreed on refs refereeing the age they can physically manage.  I took picture of AR this weekend who was constantly not in position.  He was likely over 70 and knew he couldn't sprint down the line, so stayed near the penalty area most of the time.  Time to do the 7v7's...


----------



## watfly (Sep 20, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I would agree with you if it was 2005 or 2006, but 2005 is ancient history.  There have been numerous changes since 2005 and that unfortunately does not apply to the 2018/2019 LOTG.  It would be nice to have in there, but there would be too much gray area for referees to determine and interpret what "potential for physical contact" means.  I remember those years and remember some crazy calls that the AR or CR would use the explanation of "I thought there was going to be contact between the players."  I even saw an AR raise the flag and use that excuse when the player and keeper were 50 yards apart. Definitely do not want to go back to those days.


I actually posed the question to Dan Healdman (of Ask a Soccer Referee) if that advice from the 2005 circular still applied.  His response was the following:

_ "Since it has never been concretely replaced or reinterpreted by either IFAB or USSF, yes.  This is a general principle in considering what remains in the Law based on earlier, uncontroverted circulars or memoranda, despite intervening new (and sometimes greatly revised) editions of the Laws of the Game."
_
Regardless, I think we can all agree that this call should never be made from 50 yards out.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 20, 2018)

watfly said:


> I actually posed the question to Dan Healdman (of Ask a Soccer Referee) if that advice from the 2005 circular still applied.  His response was the following:
> 
> _ "Since it has never been concretely replaced or reinterpreted by either IFAB or USSF, yes.  This is a general principle in considering what remains in the Law based on earlier, uncontroverted circulars or memoranda, despite intervening new (and sometimes greatly revised) editions of the Laws of the Game."
> _
> Regardless, I think we can all agree that this call should never be made from 50 yards out.


Nope, just wait until [right before] a collision with keeper in a little kids game, then extend flag high as players go down in a crumple. Just so you get it right.

And be sure to tell the coach and kid's parents that you had to make sure the player didn't peel off at the last moment and avoid an offside call.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 20, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Nope, just wait until [right before] a collision with keeper in a little kids game, then extend flag high as players go down in a crumple. Just so you get it right.
> 
> And be sure to tell the coach and kid's parents that you had to make sure the player didn't peel off at the last moment and avoid an offside call.


Referee training tonight.  The offside question came up of when to raise the flag and where the restart is.  The Ex-national Referee, National Assessor, and Instructor said we have to wait until the player plays the ball or interferes with play, and the restart is where the ball was played.  A bunch of crusty old refs bitched about it and the instructor told them they need to read the LOTG and update to the new Law 11 interpretations.  It was nice to hear him say that coaches and players know about the changes and have set plays to exploit those changes, so if they know them then the Referee better know them.

A lot of coaches don’t even know there was a change to Law 11 a couple years ago and almost all parents don’t know.  Parents yell at referees all the time about stuff the parents a grossly misinformed about.  I and most referees just ignore them.


----------



## watfly (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Referee training tonight.  The offside question came up of when to raise the flag and where the restart is.  The Ex-national Referee, National Assessor, and Instructor said we have to wait until the player plays the ball or interferes with play, and the restart is where the ball was played.  A bunch of crusty old refs bitched about it and the instructor told them they need to read the LOTG and update to the new Law 11 interpretations.  It was nice to hear him say that coaches and players know about the changes and have set plays to exploit those changes, so if they know them then the Referee better know them.
> 
> A lot of coaches don’t even know there was a change to Law 11 a couple years ago and almost all parents don’t know.  Parents yell at referees all the time about stuff the parents a grossly misinformed about.  I and most referees just ignore them.


Let's ignore for the fact that right after "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG, IFAB issued direct (and since unrevised) guidance that if there was potential for contact (in the ref's opinion) that the player shall be penalized for an offside offense.   I don't think anyone is disputing that in most cases the player has to touch the ball, however, there are exceptions of which this is one.

Let's instead look at this from a purely logical standpoint (although I don't think I can explain it better than Coachrefparent's illustration).  It's hard to imagine that IFAB would design the Laws to preserve a rarely used gimmick play over the safety of the keeper or another player.  That just doesn't pass the smell test for me.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 21, 2018)

watfly said:


> Let's ignore for the fact that right after "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG, IFAB issued direct (and since unrevised) guidance that if there was potential for contact (in the ref's opinion) that the player shall be penalized for an offside offense.   I don't think anyone is disputing that in most cases the player has to touch the ball, however, there are exceptions of which this is one.
> 
> Let's instead look at this from a purely logical standpoint (although I don't think I can explain it better than Coachrefparent's illustration).  It's hard to imagine that IFAB would design the Laws to preserve a rarely used gimmick play over the safety of the keeper or another player.  That just doesn't pass the smell test for me.


I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender.  If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside. 

Referees need to use some common sense.  What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game.  If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball.  A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured.  A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.  

The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think.  Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11.  I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.


----------



## watfly (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender.  If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.
> 
> Referees need to use some common sense.  What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game.  If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball.  A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured.  A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.


Makes complete sense to me.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 21, 2018)

I don't want to sound dismissive of injuries, but raising the flag early to stop a potential collision is not the end all be all. A lot of times, offside calls hinge on a few millimeters and milliseconds. A 50/50 ball with the keeper could easily happen when the player is ONside. And there is no law that prohibits a 50/50 challenge, so long as it is not careless.

We shouldn't be so quick to stop a possible attack just because we are trying to prevent something that is expected, legal, part of natural play, and prevalent in modern soccer.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender.  If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.
> 
> Referees need to use some common sense.  What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game.  If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball.  A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured.  A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.
> 
> The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think.  Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11.  I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.


Now, we're talking: know the laws, know how to call offside, but don't throw common sense out when dealing with youth soccer players.


----------



## espola (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender.  If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.
> 
> Referees need to use some common sense.  What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game.  If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball.  A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured.  A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.
> 
> The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think.  Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11.  I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.


I remember when the offside trap used to work the other way - the sweeper would take a couple of steps far enough to put the opposing striker offside just before the kick was taken.  Having a set play that depends on cooperation and fore-knowledge of the officials seems a little dirty to me.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think.  Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11.  I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.


I've been seeing this more and more as well.  We try to drill into our players that a flag up doesn't mean to stop, and they need to continue to watch/engage players who were not in offside position ("OSP") when played until whistle is blown. 

Anyone have any links to youtube showing this "trick" where you try to get defenders to stop playing with a blatantly OSP player?


----------



## Surfref (Sep 21, 2018)

espola said:


> I remember when the offside trap used to work the other way - the sweeper would take a couple of steps far enough to put the opposing striker offside just before the kick was taken.  Having a set play that depends on cooperation and fore-knowledge of the officials seems a little dirty to me.


Why is it dirty?  There is no violation of the LOTG.  Is it dirty when players do not automatically give 10 yards on a free kick?  The LOTG state that players are to give distance, but most don’t.  It is all just gamesmanship and tactics.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 21, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> I've been seeing this more and more as well.  We try to drill into our players that a flag up doesn't mean to stop, and they need to continue to watch/engage players who were not in offside position ("OSP") when played until whistle is blown.
> 
> Anyone have any links to youtube showing this "trick" where you try to get defenders to stop playing with a blatantly OSP player?


 The 1st and 9th (Messi) are the best. There is another really good one that used to be on the PRO site, but I will have to look for it.


----------



## espola (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The 1st and 9th (Messi) are the best. There is another really good one that used to be on the PRO site, but I will have to look for it.


Doesn't seem to be germane to the discussion about an offside player feinting a play, but not playing the ball.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The 1st and 9th (Messi) are the best. There is another really good one that used to be on the PRO site, but I will have to look for it.





espola said:


> Doesn't seem to be germane to the discussion about an offside player feinting a play, but not playing the ball.


I saw that on a quick search. There are a few tricks but most are just beating the trap by great play.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 21, 2018)

espola said:


> Doesn't seem to be germane to the discussion about an offside player feinting a play, but not playing the ball.


These are better.


----------



## espola (Sep 21, 2018)

Surfref said:


> These are better.


I don't see it.


----------



## baldref (Sep 22, 2018)

Surfref said:


> These are better.


if someone doesn't understand those perfect examples, well..... you know.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 22, 2018)

baldref said:


> if someone doesn't understand those perfect examples, well..... you know.


Most of them are not the "trick" play people were describing...


----------



## baldref (Sep 22, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Most of them are not the "trick" play people were describing...


Who said trick play?

What he was talking about was a player in an offside position that makes a feint at the ball and another inside player runs on to it. 

I guess that difficult for you to grasp


----------



## espola (Sep 22, 2018)

baldref said:


> Who said trick play?
> 
> What he was talking about was a player in an offside position that makes a feint at the ball and another inside player runs on to it.
> 
> I guess that difficult for you to grasp


Most of the most recent examples shown are players making it obvious they are not going to play the ball by stopping their run, backing away, or putting up their hands in a mock surrender motion.


----------



## baldref (Sep 22, 2018)

espola said:


> Most of the most recent examples shown are players making it obvious they are not going to play the ball by stopping their run, backing away, or putting up their hands in a mock surrender motion.


Senility is difficult I guess


----------



## espola (Sep 22, 2018)

baldref said:


> Senility is difficult I guess


Since you have nothing to contribute except insults, I  guess it is clear to all why you chose Grumpy as your avatar.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Sep 22, 2018)

espola said:


> Most of the most recent examples shown are players making it obvious they are not going to play the ball by stopping their run, backing away, or putting up their hands in a mock surrender motion.


The 2nd MLS video has the attacker fall down because of how badly he whiffed the kick.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 22, 2018)

baldref said:


> Who said trick play?
> I guess that difficult for you to grasp


I was the one asking for links:


coachrefparent said:


> I've been seeing this more and more as well.  We try to drill into our players that a flag up doesn't mean to stop, and they need to continue to watch/engage players who were not in offside position ("OSP") when played until whistle is blown.
> 
> Anyone have any links to youtube showing this "trick" where you try to get defenders to stop playing with a blatantly OSP player?


What he was talking about was a player in an offside position that makes a feint at the ball and another inside player runs on to it.
Right, and very few of the examples show this. Most are just players that are not offside.


----------



## baldref (Sep 23, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> I was the one asking for links:
> 
> What he was talking about was a player in an offside position that makes a feint at the ball and another inside player runs on to it.
> Right, and very few of the examples show this. Most are just players that are not offside.


but some do. which of course is the point.


----------



## jrcaesar (Sep 23, 2018)

Son's 05 team had an Early Flag offside call go against them yesterday from a 65+ ref (): 3 attackers heading into the play, referee calls one for being offside (not yet impacting play) before the 3rd one (the fastest) sweeps in to play the ball. Would have tied the game.


----------



## espola (Sep 23, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> Son's 05 team had an Early Flag offside call go against them yesterday from a 65+ ref (): 3 attackers heading into the play, referee calls one for being offside (not yet impacting play) before the 3rd one (the fastest) sweeps in to play the ball. Would have tied the game.


"impacting play" is one of those referee judgement calls we have all come to love and respect.

Got a video?


----------



## Surfref (Sep 23, 2018)

espola said:


> I don't see it.


Oh, Jesus help this man


----------



## Surfref (Sep 23, 2018)

jrcaesar said:


> Son's 05 team had an Early Flag offside call go against them yesterday from a 65+ ref (): 3 attackers heading into the play, referee calls one for being offside (not yet impacting play) before the 3rd one (the fastest) sweeps in to play the ball. Would have tied the game.


That is why referees need to wait and see what happens. My very good State ref AR raise the flag early on a ball headed toward the keeper with an offside player in pursuit.  I ignored the flag and let the play proceed.  Keeper got there first, sent the ball to the other half of the field, and player got a shot on goal.  At halftime to my surprise the AR apologized to me for not letting the play develop.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 23, 2018)

espola said:


> "impacting play" is one of those referee judgement calls we have all come to love and respect.
> 
> Got a video?


No it is clearly defined during the numerous Referee training sessions.


----------



## watfly (Sep 23, 2018)

Surfref said:


> These are better.


I have to admit that from your description I was envisioning a scripted play where a through ball is intentionally played to a PIOP and the PIOP pursues the ball and at the last second the PIOP peels off the ball and a player who had come from an onside position takes possession.  The videos to me show natural reactions to the run of play and not a scripted or set plays where the ball is intentionally played to a PIOP.  Nor do they seem to show any case where there was risk of significant physical contact from the PIOP, although they're good examples of offside no calls.


----------



## Surfref (Sep 23, 2018)

watfly said:


> I have to admit that from your description I was envisioning a scripted play where a through ball is intentionally played to a PIOP and the PIOP pursues the ball and at the last second the PIOP peels off the ball and a player who had come from an onside position takes possession.  The videos to me show natural reactions to the run of play and not a scripted or set plays where the ball is intentionally played to a PIOP.  Nor do they seem to show any case where there was risk of significant physical contact from the PIOP, although they're good examples of offside no calls.


I don’t know of any videos showing actual set plays.  I will ask my daughter if her team has a video I can use.


----------



## coachrefparent (Sep 23, 2018)

watfly said:


> I have to admit that from your description I was envisioning a scripted play where a through ball is intentionally played to a PIOP and the PIOP pursues the ball and at the last second the PIOP peels off the ball and a player who had come from an onside position takes possession.  The videos to me show natural reactions to the run of play and not a scripted or set plays where the ball is intentionally played to a PIOP.  Nor do they seem to show any case where there was risk of significant physical contact from the PIOP, although they're good examples of offside no calls.


Thanks for putting it so much better than I did. This is what I have been trying to say to the bald one.


----------



## watfly (Sep 24, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Thanks for putting it so much better than I did. This is what I have been trying to say to the bald one.


Thanks.  On rare occasions I'm able to articulate a coherent thought.


----------



## Surfref (Oct 25, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> And this happened this weekend.  I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position.  #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play.  What are your thoughts?  PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
> 
> Side view:
> 
> ...


These two video clips were part of the monthly referee association training on Law 11 Offside.  Determination of the Cal South instructors and all of the referees in the room was no offside and goal should have counted.  CR should have waved down the AR.


----------



## TangoCity (Oct 25, 2018)

Surfref said:


> These two video clips were part of the monthly referee association training on Law 11 Offside.  Determination of the Cal South instructors and all of the referees in the room was no offside and goal should have counted.  CR should have waved down the AR.


Awesome.  Thanks for the update.  Hopefully the clips contributed to a good discussion and worthwhile training to the group.

Can we get the goal back, lol?  1-1 tie instead of 0-1 loss.


----------



## Just A Dad (Oct 29, 2018)

yesterday I thought my daughters AR missed a offsides call and I said you missed that one and he explained why it wasnt offsides. I was recording on my Ipad and at half time i watched the play and he was correct the other team was not offsides. I told him i watched the video and he was correct. He gave a little fist pump and told me he likes when parents have to admit he's right.


----------

