# Opinions on todays transgender players?



## BananaKick (Aug 18, 2017)

Recently we played a Seattle Showcase with our girls team. We were approached before the game by the opposing coach that they had a boy playing on the girls team. This boy was in " transition' in becoming a girl. I was curious in this current PC world how is Youth Soccer and teams handling these new changes. Unfortunetly I have heard of Coaches falsely using the " transition" label, and getting away with playing with a more dominating gender player, example boy vs girls. What are your views?


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## BeepBeep Boop (Aug 18, 2017)

https://www.transathlete.com/policies-college

>A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status *until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment*.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Aug 18, 2017)

I hope that we would focus on the well being of the individual over the competitive advantage the team may have.  The soccer game is insignificant in the big scheme of things.  I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. Hopefully class & grace by all parties would be what qualifies as a "win."


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## SoCal GK mom (Aug 18, 2017)

BeepBeep Boop said:


> https://www.transathlete.com/policies-college
> 
> >A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status *until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment*.


Since most children are not treated with hormones such as testosterone, this would not apply to athletes in youth club soccer. Most commonly, trans children are given hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty, rather than given hormones to actively assist in hormonal transition. The OP did not mention the age of the players, but my guess is that it is not realistic to apply NCAA rules to this situation.


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## espola (Aug 18, 2017)

BananaKick said:


> Recently we played a Seattle Showcase with our girls team. We were approached before the game by the opposing coach that they had a boy playing on the girls team. This boy was in " transition' in becoming a girl. I was curious in this current PC world how is Youth Soccer and teams handling these new changes. Unfortunetly I have heard of Coaches falsely using the " transition" label, and getting away with playing with a more dominating gender player, example boy vs girls. What are your views?


Where have you heard that?


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## BananaKick (Aug 18, 2017)

BeepBeep Boop said:


> https://www.transathlete.com/policies-college
> 
> >A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status *until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment*.


Thank you that is very informative and helpful


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 18, 2017)

BananaKick said:


> Recently we played a Seattle Showcase with our girls team. We were approached before the game by the opposing coach that they had a boy playing on the girls team. This boy was in " transition' in becoming a girl. I was curious in this current PC world how is Youth Soccer and teams handling these new changes. Unfortunetly I have heard of Coaches falsely using the " transition" label, and getting away with playing with a more dominating gender player, example boy vs girls. What are your views?


Play the hand God dealt you. IMHO


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 18, 2017)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> I hope that we would focus on the well being of the individual over the competitive advantage the team may have.  The soccer game is insignificant in the big scheme of things.  I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. Hopefully class & grace by all parties would be what qualifies as a "win."


Youth soccer, at least on the club side, is pretty competitive, maybe Rec would be a better place  for a social experiment.


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## SocalPapa (Aug 18, 2017)

It's hard to imagine this being a common enough occurrence to warrant giving time and attention to it on this board.


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## Grace T. (Aug 18, 2017)

SocalPapa said:


> It's hard to imagine this being a common enough occurrence to warrant giving time and attention to it on this board.



You'd be surprised.  Club soccer and AYSO/rec are private entities so the rules are different (at least until the courts get involved) but the rules at least for California government-run sports are clear (e.g., for players for their schools (elementary/middle/high))....a player is free to play for whatever gender identity they say they are.  This was actually just an issue before our school board last year.


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## chargerfan (Aug 18, 2017)

SocalPapa said:


> It's hard to imagine this being a common enough occurrence to warrant giving time and attention to it on this board.


Not only that, but it's not an adult's job to try to "out" a transgender child.


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## socalkdg (Aug 18, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> You'd be surprised.  Club soccer and AYSO/rec are private entities so the rules are different (at least until the courts get involved) but the rules at least for California government-run sports are clear (e.g., for players for their schools (elementary/middle/high))....a player is free to play for whatever gender identity they say they are.  This was actually just an issue before our school board last year.


Now if U16 male players can beat the US women's national team, this sounds  a bit scary both from a competitive point a view, and from an injury point of view.


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## chargerfan (Aug 18, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Now if U16 male players can beat the US women's national team, this sounds  a bit scary both from a competitive point a view, and from an injury point of view.


You prefer to disallow transgender children from playing sports because of the very minute chance of injury? Are there any u16 top level male players currently transistioning?


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## Hdyldemapples (Aug 18, 2017)

https://www.transathlete.com/k-12


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## timbuck (Aug 18, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Play the hand God dealt you. IMHO


In my mind, I'm 6'3" 215 with awesome hair.  Damn mirror always reminding me what I really am.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 18, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You prefer to disallow transgender children from playing sports because of the very minute chance of injury? Are there any u16 top level male players currently transistioning?


Minute? In my experience of 4 years in club, minute doesn't describe the amount of injuries our team has experienced and some of those were 9-12 months.


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## forsomuch (Aug 18, 2017)

Actual game video


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## socalkdg (Aug 18, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You prefer to disallow transgender children from playing sports because of the very minute chance of injury? Are there any u16 top level male players currently transistioning?


Since we allow girls to play on boys teams, then no reason a transgender couldn't play on the boys team as well, no matter which direction they are moving to.  Plus the quoted law didn't say it was limited to transgender kids, it said open to what ever gender they feel they are.   We know a 15 year old boy can be better than the best 25 year old woman in the world.   Based off the rule, this 15 year old boy can play with the 15 year old girls.   

What are the rules in College?  Olympics?    Also makes me wonder, in what sports are women actually better than men?  Has to be some.   Gymnastics?  Ice Skating?


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## chargerfan (Aug 18, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Since we allow girls to play on boys teams, then no reason a transgender couldn't play on the boys team as well, no matter which direction they are moving to.  Plus the quoted law didn't say it was limited to transgender kids, it said open to what ever gender they feel they are.   We know a 15 year old boy can be better than the best 25 year old woman in the world.   Based off the rule, this 15 year old boy can play with the 15 year old girls.
> 
> What are the rules in College?  Olympics?    Also makes me wonder, in what sports are women actually better than men?  Has to be some.   Gymnastics?  Ice Skating?


You would force a transgender girl to play on a boys team? Because you're worried she would be better than your daughter?


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 18, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Since we allow girls to play on boys teams, then no reason a transgender couldn't play on the boys team as well, no matter which direction they are moving to.  Plus the quoted law didn't say it was limited to transgender kids, it said open to what ever gender they feel they are.   We know a 15 year old boy can be better than the best 25 year old woman in the world.   Based off the rule, this 15 year old boy can play with the 15 year old girls.
> 
> What are the rules in College?  Olympics?    Also makes me wonder, in what sports are women actually better than men?  Has to be some.   Gymnastics?  Ice Skating?


Didn't the Germans' try this?


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## mirage (Aug 18, 2017)

BananaKick said:


> Recently we played a Seattle Showcase with our girls team. We were approached before the game by the opposing coach that they had a boy playing on the girls team. This boy was in " transition' in becoming a girl. I was curious in this current PC world how is Youth Soccer and teams handling these new changes. Unfortunetly I have heard of Coaches falsely using the " transition" label, and getting away with playing with a more dominating gender player, example boy vs girls. What are your views?


Is this a survey?

Its your first post and your only other post is to thank the group for feedback....

What are your thought on the subject?


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## push_up (Aug 18, 2017)

My guess Socal teams have been doing this for years.  Boys playing as girls.  Probably one of the reasons Socal girls teams have been dominating in the younger age brackets.  I can't wait for these girls....err, boys to start earning spots on the WNT.  The USA will continue to dominate for generations!  No need for the DA at all......all the new girls....err..boys will be as unicorns.


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## Justafan (Aug 18, 2017)

BananaKick said:


> Unfortunetly I have heard of Coaches falsely using the " transition" label, and getting away with playing with a more dominating gender player, example boy vs girls.


How many times have you heard it?  You seem to imply it's becoming pretty common and I definitely don't buy that.  Never seen it or heard it mentioned here on the forum. Not saying it didn't happen as you say to your club, but that it is a common tactic or becoming so, no I don't buy that.


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## hero4 (Aug 19, 2017)

When my daughter's team was in Seattle , we briefly watched a Seattle team with a player that appeared to be a boy (potentially transgender) playing on a girls team.  I'm curious if you're referring to the same team we saw? At any rate, it is an issue, I am concerned but I'm not sure how I would handle the situation so suddenly in my face. If given notice, probably wouldn't condone it. It's unfair for an entire team (parents included) to be troubled with 1 child (trying to make grown up decisions) questioning their gender identity. I agree with sheriff Joe. A coed team is one thing, this is something else entirely. Play the gender you were born with.


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## chargerfan (Aug 19, 2017)

hero4 said:


> When my daughter's team was in Seattle , we briefly watched a Seattle team with a player that appeared to be a boy (potentially transgender) playing on a girls team.  I'm curious if you're referring to the same team we saw? At any rate, it is an issue, I am concerned but I'm not sure how I would handle the situation so suddenly in my face. If given notice, probably wouldn't condone it. It's unfair for an entire team (parents included) to be troubled with 1 child (trying to make grown up decisions) questioning their gender identity. I agree with sheriff Joe. A coed team is one thing, this is something else entirely. Play the gender you were born with.


Thank heavens the parents of that little girl are not as closed minded as you are.


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## chargerfan (Aug 19, 2017)

hero4 said:


> When my daughter's team was in Seattle , we briefly watched a Seattle team with a player that appeared to be a boy (potentially transgender) playing on a girls team.  I'm curious if you're referring to the same team we saw? At any rate, it is an issue, I am concerned but I'm not sure how I would handle the situation so suddenly in my face. If given notice, probably wouldn't condone it. It's unfair for an entire team (parents included) to be troubled with 1 child (trying to make grown up decisions) questioning their gender identity. I agree with sheriff Joe. A coed team is one thing, this is something else entirely. Play the gender you were born with.


Did that transgender player do something to harm anyone during the game you saw? Or is the point to just shame a child?


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## hero4 (Aug 19, 2017)

I'm not shaming the child. I have no idea who he is. He's perfectly welcome to play on a boys team as my daughter is to play on a girls team. And I am open to her practicing with coed teams or an all boys team (periodically) to teach her to play tougher/stronger. I'm not open (as chargerfan put it) to my 13yr old daughter dealing with another child's sexual frustrations. It's wrong and selfish to make such a demand on an entire team . Even if the entire team is ok with it, what about teams they are set to play that aren't Ok? Now a team is condemned to not play because a child is confused. No, figure it out when you're an adult and let other adults decide, it's all too much too soon. Let them be kids, separate adult issues. 13 yr olds already have enough to work out in their growing minds.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 19, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Play the hand God dealt you. IMHO


When 'God' gives one cancer make sure they play that hand out too, right?


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## chargerfan (Aug 19, 2017)

hero4 said:


> I'm not shaming the child. I have no idea who he is. He's perfectly welcome to play on a boys team as my daughter is to play on a girls team. And I am open to her practicing with coed teams or an all boys team (periodically) to teach her to play tougher/stronger. I'm not open (as chargerfan put it) to my 13yr old daughter dealing with another child's sexual frustrations. It's wrong and selfish to make such a demand on an entire team . Even if the entire team is ok with it, what about teams they are set to play that aren't Ok? Now a team is condemned to not play because a child is confused. No, figure it out when you're an adult and let other adults decide, it's all too much too soon. Let them be kids, separate adult issues. 13 yr olds already have enough to work out in their growing minds.


Well shit guess you'd better put her in a bubble if you don't want her dealing with teenage sexual frustrations, or sexual confusion


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 19, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> When 'God' gives one cancer make sure they play that hand out too, right?


So you are comparing cancer to transgenderism? 
At least you are being honest.
Read the title of the thread and get back to me.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 19, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Thank heavens the parents of that little girl are not as closed minded as you are.


You do know what opinion means, right?
Just because you don't agree doesn't make you right,
Just who in the hell do you think you are?
You would have a whole team and league in choas over one confused kid and or parent? Get a life.


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## timbuck (Aug 19, 2017)

Haven't come across this yet. In the big picture, it's a team you'll play once or twice (maybe a few more with tournaments) a year. 
Not an issue to me. 
Both of my girls love playing against boys teams.


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## Anomaly (Aug 19, 2017)

I want to add another layer to the discussion.

For those stating kids should only be playing for the gender they are born as (other than girls playing for boys teams), what would your stance be on a female-to-male transgender competing for a girls team while undergoing hormone blockers and getting testosterone shots? You say they must play for the gender they were born as. Does it work both ways in your opinion?

I mention this as earlier this year, a transgender boy (female-to-male) was forced to wrestle in the girls' division despite undergoing several hormone treatments. The public was outraged by this and said he should be wrestling with boys, which he wanted, but was disallowed to. And looking at pictures of him, I never would have guessed he was born a girl. https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/national/trandgender-boy-17-forced-wrestle-females-article-1.2981220

My stance on this social issue? I don't think I have one set. Everything's so situational, and these situations are few and far in between. I truly doubt a parent would let their child be used for malicious intent (i.e. Having their son pose as transgender to help a girls' team win a soccer game). The odds of that happening are so slim. Now, can it be unfair for a boy with possible physical advantage to be competing against girls? Yes. But we can't forget this isn't the pros. There has to be a line we eventually have to establish regarding this issue. When and where we'll draw the line, I don't know. Obviously we can't, and frankly shouldn't, conform everything to accomadate the 1% or whatever percentage it is. But in a simple soccer match, consider a kid's feelings. A kid that's probably going through a hell of a lot. And we may not understand what they're going through, but should at least acknowledge their struggles and at least try to be a little accepting. For the sake of the kid's feelings.


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## El Clasico (Aug 20, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Well shit guess you'd better put her in a bubble if you don't want her dealing with teenage sexual frustrations, or sexual confusion


No insult intended but while everyone is sharing their opinion on the matter and having an adult debate, it seems that your arguments are based more on emotion...as if this were an issue that you went through or have a child that is going through....possibly???  If so, wouldn't it be better to share your experience so that people can understand your pain or frustration or your challenges?  You may garner more empathy or understanding than you are getting by simply lashing out.




Anomaly said:


> I want to add another layer to the discussion.
> 
> For those stating kids should only be playing for the gender they are born as (other than girls playing for boys teams), what would your stance be on a female-to-male transgender competing for a girls team while undergoing hormone blockers and getting testosterone shots? You say they must play for the gender they were born as. Does it work both ways in your opinion?QUOTE]
> 
> To add yet another layer to the discussion... should they factor in the stakes?  So a casual scrimmage or low level tournament is ok but the finals at Surf Cup are not? I think that idea would create more confusion and frustration than it solves. Either way, I am sure that it won't be long before it is something that will have to be addressed and the process is going to be more complicated than simply factoring in someone's feelings.


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 20, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> When 'God' gives one cancer make sure they play that hand out too, right?


They dont really have any choice.
They have to play it out.
Not a valid comparison.
A transgender has choices to compete at sports, but those choices should not lend an unfair advantage to them in the process.
A man, whether having gone through "the process" of transforming themselves or not, has physical advantages over natural born women in sports.
My opinion is that the integrity of sport should not be compromised to facilitate political correctness.
If and when there are enough transgenders to create their own league, the problem will correct itself, God help us.
Until then, all players should be required to participate in the gender of their birth. If they cannot compete at that level, there is always chess. (or checkers)


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## espola (Aug 20, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> They dont really have any choice.
> They have to play it out.
> Not a valid comparison.
> A transgender has choices to compete at sports, but those choices should not lend an unfair advantage to them in the process.
> ...


You avoided the question of players born female who are undergoing hormone treatments to transition to male.  Is it fair to let them play in a female-only league?


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## zebrafish (Aug 20, 2017)

timbuck said:


> Haven't come across this yet. In the big picture, it's a team you'll play once or twice (maybe a few more with tournaments) a year.
> Not an issue to me.
> Both of my girls love playing against boys teams.


Exactly. Also, there are huge differences, at least in younger age groups (speaking among children of the same sex) in terms of the range of normal size and physical development. 

My kid's team had a guest player yesterday who was so small compared to an opposing player, that she could have ducked and run underneath/between her legs.

If it were an issue (and I think like the transgender bathroom issue, it is largely a non-issue), I think it would become one in the venue of upper level sports, like college, semi-pro, or professional sports.


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 20, 2017)

espola said:


> You avoided the question of players born female who are undergoing hormone treatments to transition to male.  Is it fair to let them play in a female-only league?


If its ok for men to take steroids and compete, its ok for women.
-signed Barry Bonds.


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 20, 2017)

zebrafish said:


> , I think it would become one in the venue of upper level sports, like college, semi-pro, or professional sports.


It becomes an issue as soon as the advantage is recognizable and apparent.
The integrity of the sport is compromised when political correctness chooses who wins.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjUj8rFlebVAhUKhlQKHcndAYUQFggrMAA&url=http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship&usg=AFQjCNFeVaOccVwQnJsr6yXLODdyVVwhoQ


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## espola (Aug 20, 2017)

zebrafish said:


> Exactly. Also, there are huge differences, at least in younger age groups (speaking among children of the same sex) in terms of the range of normal size and physical development.
> 
> My kid's team had a guest player yesterday who was so small compared to an opposing player, that she could have ducked and run underneath/between her legs.
> 
> If it were an issue (and I think like the transgender bathroom issue, it is largely a non-issue), I think it would become one in the venue of upper level sports, like college, semi-pro, or professional sports.


Too young to remember Dr.  Renée Richards?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


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## zebrafish (Aug 20, 2017)

espola said:


> Too young to remember Dr.  Renée Richards?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


Too young to have watched her play professionally, but I'm very familiar with the history there.

Renee Richards was really too old to make a huge impact on the women's circuit as a professional (I think she was well into her 40s when she played on the circuit). If she'd been in her 20s, I think it would have been more of a competitive issue.

But this does kind of prove the point that this is a fringe topic. The build-out line affects us way more than transgender athletes...


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## chargerfan (Aug 20, 2017)

El Clasico said:


> No insult intended but while everyone is sharing their opinion on the matter and having an adult debate, it seems that your arguments are based more on emotion...as if this were an issue that you went through or have a child that is going through....possibly???  If so, wouldn't it be better to share your experience so that people can understand your pain or frustration or your challenges?  You may garner more empathy or understanding than you are getting by simply lashing out.


No I do not have a transgender child. But I do know a couple children who have transitioned, one being a school friend of my daughters. He is a wonderful kid who had to leave his last school due to some parents freaking out . Thankfully he is now happy and in a place where he feels accepted. To my daughter and her friends, they just think he's a nice kid with a good sense of humor. Having met him, he is a well-adjusted, happy child. Isn't that all that matters? 

Gender and sexuality are obviously very complicated things, and transgender people have existed for thousands of years, sometimes accepted by society, sometimes not. I just think whatever your person opinion is regarding transitioning, there is never a need to shame a child. Suicide rates among transgender child and adults is very high partly for this reason. 

Empathy? If you don't have empathy for a kid that is going through something pretty damn hard that is not accepted by a large chunk of society and your first impulse is to make fun of them or deny their humanity, then there is something wrong with you.


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## push_up (Aug 20, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> ......there is never a need to shame a child.


What an incredible hypocrite you are!  You write about not shaming a child but you are one of Amy Thorne's (aka MAP) groupies on this forum.  She enjoys shaming children and does it for sport.  You are no doubt just as disgusting as she is.


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## chargerfan (Aug 20, 2017)

push_up said:


> What an incredible hypocrite you are!  You write about not shaming a child but you are one of Amy Thorne's (aka MAP) groupies on this forum.  She enjoys shaming children and does it for sport.  You are no doubt just as disgusting as she is.


I can't believe I'm taking the time to even respond to this drivel, but when have I ever shamed a child?

Like the kids say, show me the receipts.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 20, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> So you are comparing cancer to transgenderism?
> At least you are being honest.
> Read the title of the thread and get back to me.


Read what the statement is in response to... ppl suggest ppl should play the hand they're given, simply asking if that line of thinking extends to all things god gives them...


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 20, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> They dont really have any choice.
> They have to play it out.
> Not a valid comparison.
> A transgender has choices to compete at sports, but those choices should not lend an unfair advantage to them in the process.
> ...


Is this a joke? Both are medical conditions w/ scientifically recognized treatment options. What if a kid shows up on your sons/daughters team that has been diagnosed w 
gigantism, r u going to tell them they have a choice to play too? i dont see this having anything to do w 'integrity of sport', but keep using that as an excuse to discriminate. These are kids! This kid is already dealing w enough, give her a chance to have some modicum of childhood!


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 20, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> They dont really have any choice.
> They have to play it out.
> Not a valid comparison.
> A transgender has choices to compete at sports, but those choices should not lend an unfair advantage to them in the process.
> ...


And while we're at, should there be separate leagues for homosexuals? Maybe blacks or hispanics? I mean, why not special league for short vs tall players? Sounds silly, no? So does a league for transgenders...


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## espola (Aug 20, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> And while we're at, should there be separate leagues for homosexuals? Maybe blacks or hispanics? I mean, why not special league for short vs tall players? Sounds silly, no? So does a league for transgenders...


Ricky is not interested in logic.  He has a position to defend.


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## push_up (Aug 20, 2017)

You know a culture is f-ed up when idiots refuse to see a clear differentiation between biologically male and female.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 20, 2017)

push_up said:


> You know a culture is f-ed up when idiots refuse to see a clear differentiation between biologically male and female.


Maybe you can help educate...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/sexual-orientation-gender/gender-gender-identity

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/gender-identity-biological-study/story?id=29335854


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## Soccerfan2 (Aug 20, 2017)

Maybe some do not know, but 'girl' or 'boy' isn't always physically clear cut at birth. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/social-justice/born-ambiguous-genitalia-hypospadias-gender-sexuality-71345


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## chargerfan (Aug 20, 2017)

push_up said:


> You know a culture is f-ed up when idiots refuse to see a clear differentiation between biologically male and female.


You may want to read up on history, push up. You act as if transgender people are a modern concept.


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## Eagle33 (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Maybe you can help educate...
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
> 
> ...


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## push_up (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You may want to read up on history, push up. You act as if transgender people are a modern concept.


Mental illness is a fact.  We can agree on that.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Read what the statement is in response to... ppl suggest ppl should play the hand they're given, simply asking if that line of thinking extends to all things god gives them...


The threads title is asking for opinions.
When people start playing God bad things happen.


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## espola (Aug 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> The threads title is asking for opinions.
> When people start playing God bad things happen.


What are you afraid of?


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

espola said:


> What are you afraid of?


Nothing, why?


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## espola (Aug 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Nothing, why?


"...bad things happen."


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## MaradonaDiego90301 (Aug 21, 2017)

push_up said:


> What an incredible hypocrite you are!  You write about not shaming a child but you are one of Amy Thorne's (aka MAP) groupies on this forum.  She enjoys shaming children and does it for sport.  You are no doubt just as disgusting as she is.


Hahaha!


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## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

I worry that parents may be pushing kids to make these life changes, and too early in their life.   When my daughter was younger she used to say that she wanted to be a boy.   We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes.   But we also said that she could like what ever she wanted to like.  Lego's, boys sports, shorts and a t-shirt, best friends were all boys, etc.   She still loves these things, but she has started liking some girl things as well, feels comfortable as a girl, loves playing with girls now, and is starting to find boys cute(way too early on this).   

If a boy feels they are a girl and likes girl things, that is fine.  Let puberty hit, let them go through all the natural chemical and physical changes through their teenage years, when they hit 18-21 and still have the same feelings, then lets discuss their options.   Give natural growth a chance first.  While I don't agree with much of the new liberal world views that are occurring, I'm also not one to condemn them either.   It seems people can't disagree anymore while still remaining friends or at least civil to each other. 

Regarding sporting competitions.   Imagine if Women's soccer players were paid 5-10 million per year.   We also know many 15-16 year old boys are better than these professionals, but not good enough to play professionally.   Would we start to see more transgenders just for the opportunity to make that kind of money?


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

"We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes."

Wow, you do know that the earth is not flat and we don't live in medieval times anymore?


----------



## El Clasico (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> "We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes."
> 
> Wow, you do know that the earth is not flat and we don't live in medieval times anymore?


I think you just made Socal's point! You chose to insult someone simply because they have a different point of view.


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

El Clasico said:


> I think you just made Socal's point! You chose to insult someone simply because they have a different point of view.


It is not an insult, its a legitimate question!


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> I worry that parents may be pushing kids to make these life changes, and too early in their life.   When my daughter was younger she used to say that she wanted to be a boy.   We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes.   But we also said that she could like what ever she wanted to like.  Lego's, boys sports, shorts and a t-shirt, best friends were all boys, etc.   She still loves these things, but she has started liking some girl things as well, feels comfortable as a girl, loves playing with girls now, and is starting to find boys cute(way too early on this).
> 
> If a boy feels they are a girl and likes girl things, that is fine.  Let puberty hit, let them go through all the natural chemical and physical changes through their teenage years, when they hit 18-21 and still have the same feelings, then lets discuss their options.   Give natural growth a chance first.  While I don't agree with much of the new liberal world views that are occurring, I'm also not one to condemn them either.   It seems people can't disagree anymore while still remaining friends or at least civil to each other.
> 
> Regarding sporting competitions.   Imagine if Women's soccer players were paid 5-10 million per year.   We also know many 15-16 year old boys are better than these professionals, but not good enough to play professionally.   Would we start to see more transgenders just for the opportunity to make that kind of money?



I would like to know how many kids transitioned to realize later on it was a mistake. My guess would be zero. 

These are not new liberal world views. These are facts of life. Like I said, maybe it would be helpful to read instead of base your opinions on mere feelings. Or maybe step outside your bubble and go meet a diverse group of people, including transgenders.

Your idea that men will transition just to make money playing women's soccer is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet today, and that is saying a lot.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> It is not an insult, its a legitimate question!


Wow, you do know that the earth is not flat and we don't live in medieval times anymore?
Legitimate?
Do you really think he thinks the earth is flat and he lives in medieval times?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> "We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes."
> 
> Wow, you do know that the earth is not flat and we don't live in medieval times anymore?


Yep that equates.  Believing in god, believing that your daughter that is female with female parts should be a female means flat world and medieval times.  Yep.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Your idea that men will transition just to make money playing women's soccer is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet today, and that is saying a lot.


I asked if men would do this with 5-10 million per year on the line.   You don't think a few would do something like that for that type of money?


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Yep that equates.  Believing in god, believing that your daughter that is female with female parts should be a female means flat world and medieval times.  Yep.


So you believe in god, but you don't believe in existence of transgender people?


----------



## sdb (Aug 21, 2017)

If you've ever known or talked to a family or child going through this transition, you would understand that they aren't "confused" and would never go through it for some amount of money, not matter the amount.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Yep that equates.  Believing in god, believing that your daughter that is female with female parts should be a female means flat world and medieval times.  Yep.



What if she had been born a hermaphrodite


----------



## Fact (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I would like to know how many kids transitioned to realize later on it was a mistake. My guess would be zero.
> 
> These are not new liberal world views. These are facts of life. Like I said, maybe it would be helpful to read instead of base your opinions on mere feelings. Or maybe step outside your bubble and go meet a diverse group of people, including transgenders.
> 
> Your idea that men will transition just to make money playing women's soccer is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet today, and that is saying a lot.


Not to take a stance on either side of this issue as it is very complex and each individual's case is different.  But to shed some light on your question on whether anyone later realizes they made a mistake., the answer is yes some do.  I do not know where to find these stats or even if anyone keeps them but it does happen unfortunately.

My cousin has several medical degrees and is one of the top experts in this area in the country he lives in.  One of his primary responsibilities is to determine whether an individual is ready to transition medically.  Often times, but not in most cases, he finds that the person has been an outcast and for some reason has connected with this group and thus truly believes that they want to transition.  His first instinct is to reject them from the program but then the threats start that they will just go to another country (generally with inferior medical and mental health care.)  This put him in a very difficult situation.  Some people have come back and thanked him for rejecting them and some have come back asking for help to transition back.  That is why for children in this situation, puberty suppression drug are the better course of action.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> I asked if men would do this with 5-10 million per year on the line.   You don't think a few would do something like that for that type of money?



I'm sorry but this is too stupid to respond to.


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

Fact said:


> Not to take a stance on either side of this issue as it is very complex and each individual's case is different.  But to shed some light on your question on whether anyone later realizes they made a mistake., the answer is yes some do.  I do not know where to find these stats or even if anyone keeps them but it does happen unfortunately.
> 
> My cousin has several medical degrees and is one of the top experts in this area in the country he lives in.  One of his primary responsibilities is to determine whether an individual is ready to transition medically.  Often times, but not in most cases, he finds that the person has been an outcast and for some reason has connected with this group and thus truly believes that they want to transition.  His first instinct is to reject them from the program but then the threats start that they will just go to another country (generally with inferior medical and mental health care.)  This put him in a very difficult situation.  Some people have come back and thanked him for rejecting them and some have come back asking for help to transition back.  That is why for children in this situation, puberty suppression drug are the better course of action.


Could you please provide full name of your expert cousin so we can check his credentials?  Thanks


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Fact said:


> Not to take a stance on either side of this issue as it is very complex and each individual's case is different.  But to shed some light on your question on whether anyone later realizes they made a mistake., the answer is yes some do.  I do not know where to find these stats or even if anyone keeps them but it does happen unfortunately.
> 
> My cousin has several medical degrees and is one of the top experts in this area in the country he lives in.  One of his primary responsibilities is to determine whether an individual is ready to transition medically.  Often times, but not in most cases, he finds that the person has been an outcast and for some reason has connected with this group and thus truly believes that they want to transition.  His first instinct is to reject them from the program but then the threats start that they will just go to another country (generally with inferior medical and mental health care.)  This put him in a very difficult situation.  Some people have come back and thanked him for rejecting them and some have come back asking for help to transition back.  That is why for children in this situation, puberty suppression drug are the better course of action.



I would like to know the stats on this as well. It is obviously a delicate subject, and is between a child, his family, and their doctors. I don't think the rest of us have the right to an opinion.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> So you believe in god, but you don't believe in existence of transgender people?


Yes, that is exactly what he said.
If you need to make up things people say than you have lost the debate. You lose.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> So you believe in god, but you don't believe in existence of transgender people?





chargerfan said:


> What if she had been born a hermaphrodite


Tough one since many doctors end up making the wrong choice at birth.

"Gender identification is still not well understood, but experts say that when sex cannot be determined, it's better to use the best available information to assign gender, then to wait and monitor the child's psychological and physical development before undertaking surgery, if at all."

Wait for physical and psychological development.   Pretty sure that is what I said in my original statement.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I would like to know the stats on this as well. It is obviously a delicate subject, and is between a child, his family, and their doctors. I don't think the rest of us have the right to an opinion.


I agree, that is until it affects others.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Tough one since many doctors end up making the wrong choice at birth.
> 
> "Gender identification is still not well understood, but experts say that when sex cannot be determined, it's better to use the best available information to assign gender, then to wait and monitor the child's psychological and physical development before undertaking surgery, if at all."
> 
> Wait for physical and psychological development.   Pretty sure that is what I said in my original statement.


But if god doesn't make mistakes when it comes to gender, would you have your child undergo the surgery?


----------



## espola (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> What if she had been born a hermaphrodite


There are some interesting career choices there.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> But if god doesn't make mistakes when it comes to gender, would you have your child undergo the surgery?


I can honestly say i don't know.   I've made many right and wrong decisions in life, and will make more in the future.  Not sure what I would do.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

espola said:


> There are some interesting career choices there.


If they are well paid Socal will argue that people will surgically transition to hermaphroditism to take advantage of that


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> I can honestly say i don't know.   I've made many right and wrong decisions in life, and will make more in the future.


God doesn't make mistakes right


----------



## Fact (Aug 21, 2017)

To add confusion to your attempt to make this into a one fits all discussion, what would you do with people like Caster Semenya of South Africa?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> God doesn't make mistakes right


But I do all the time.


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

*“I asked if men would do this with 5-10 million per year on the line. You don't think a few would do something like that for that type of money?”

*

* 
"We told her that she was a girl and that god didn't make mistakes."

*

*“Play the hand God dealt you. IMHO”*


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> But I do all the time.


You're not understanding my point


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

Fact said:


> To add confusion to your attempt to make this into a one fits all discussion, what would you do with people like Caster Semenya of South Africa?


"Publications have paraded Semenya around as if she were a freak, speculating on what she is rather than what she does. The talented athlete has been subjected to invasive questioning and unwanted media attention because her femininity and womanhood doesn't look how we would like it to. She has been catapulted into a misogynistic witch hunt that proves that, regardless of what a woman achieves, she will always be questioned or undermined. While the media slate, Semenya has remained silent, presumably distressed and sick of the slander."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/caster-semenya-rio-2016-gold-800m-intersex-gender-femininity-doesnt-look-the-way-we-want-a7203506.html


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> If they are well paid Socal will argue that people will surgically transition to hermaphroditism to take advantage of that


You do know many transgenders don't have surgery?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You're not understanding my point


Yes I am.  If my daughter weren't a daughter,  but was born a hermaphrodite, would I have surgery?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> You do know many transgenders don't have surgery?


Unfortunately the cost makes it prohibitive for many

Again you managed to miss the point


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Yes I am.  If my daughter weren't a daughter,  but was born a hermaphrodite, would I have surgery?


And you admitted you may even though "god doesn't make mistakes"


----------



## Fact (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> "Publications have paraded Semenya around as if she were a freak, speculating on what she is rather than what she does. The talented athlete has been subjected to invasive questioning and unwanted media attention because her femininity and womanhood doesn't look how we would like it to. She has been catapulted into a misogynistic witch hunt that proves that, regardless of what a woman achieves, she will always be questioned or undermined. While the media slate, Semenya has remained silent, presumably distressed and sick of the slander."
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/caster-semenya-rio-2016-gold-800m-intersex-gender-femininity-doesnt-look-the-way-we-want-a7203506.html


It was initially how she looks but soon became about the fact that her testosterone level is 3 times that of an average female which is a legitimate concern since some groups have suggested that gender be based on a sliding scale as oppose to female or male.

And she has spoken about the subject during the Rio Olympics NBC?  did a great interview with her about her journey.


----------



## allstarsoccer310 (Aug 21, 2017)

Oh look the people who are all over this board talking about "don't bash the kids" are on here liking off the collar comments about transgendered. 
What a horrifying post and people who like it are equally as horrifying.



espola said:


> There are some interesting career choices there.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Unfortunately the cost makes it prohibitive for many
> 
> Again you managed to miss the point


You are missing the point.  Athletes have been cheating for decades.   A non surgical way to make them millions(won't happen because women's soccer won't ever see the type of money we are talking about) would be considered by some.   Naive to think differently.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> And you admitted you may even though "god doesn't make mistakes"


Do you believe in God?  Do you ever make mistakes?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> You are missing the point.  Athletes have been cheating for decades.   A non surgical way to make them millions(won't happen because women's soccer won't ever see the type of money we are talking about) would be considered by some.   Naive to think differently.


Name one man who has transitioned just for the financial benefit of being a woman


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Name one man who has transitioned just for the financial benefit of being a woman


Even now a man who is not good enough to play a professional sport in a men's league could transition and be good enough to play in a women's league. There's not much money it in but more than a low wage job doing something he doesn't like. So how come we are not already witnessing this phenomenon?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Even now a man who is not good enough to play a professional sport in a men's league could transition and be good enough to play in a women's league. There's not much money it in but more than a low wage job doing something he doesn't like. So how come we are not already witnessing this phenomenon?


$40,000 compared to $5,000,000 is why we wouldn't see this happen.   I'd guess there would be some backlash if this were to occur.   

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-fallon-fox-a-male-to-female-transgender-be-able-to-fight-in-womens-mma


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

allstarsoccer310 said:


> Oh look the people who are all over this board talking about "don't bash the kids" are on here liking off the collar comments about transgendered.
> What a horrifying post and people who like it are equally as horrifying.


If any of my posts came across as bashing I apologize.  I have compassion for anyone that has to go through with these difficult discussions and choices.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> $40,000 compared to $5,000,000 is why we wouldn't see this happen.   I'd guess there would be some backlash if this were to occur.
> 
> http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-fallon-fox-a-male-to-female-transgender-be-able-to-fight-in-womens-mma


Your arguments have officially become too stupid to respond to. Have a good day.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> $40,000 compared to $5,000,000 is why we wouldn't see this happen.   I'd guess there would be some backlash if this were to occur.
> 
> http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-fallon-fox-a-male-to-female-transgender-be-able-to-fight-in-womens-mma


How simple do you think it is for one to transition? Surgery cant be done until a panel of doctors agree, and there are many steps in between. But, lets assume one could find enough quacks to fake the required bar... how much for you to transition? If ppl would do this for $, so would you. Whats your number? I'll hapilly start a kickstarter campaign to help you out, since you seem to think this as some sort adventure worth undertaking for the right price...


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

espola said:


> There are some interesting career choices there.


Which one did you chose in this situation?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

I wonder if this person had been allowed to play girls soccer, would he have turned out different?
Confused? I would have to give that a yes.
Chelsea Manning Unleashed: Endorses Political Violence… ‘No Exceptions’ Open Borders… Get Rid of Police, Prisons


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Is this a joke? Both are medical conditions w/ scientifically recognized treatment options. What if a kid shows up on your sons/daughters team that has been diagnosed w
> gigantism, r u going to tell them they have a choice to play too? i dont see this having anything to do w 'integrity of sport', but keep using that as an excuse to discriminate. These are kids! This kid is already dealing w enough, give her a chance to have some modicum of childhood!


Are you serious with that post!??!


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Are you serious with that post!??!


Which part of my post made think this was a joke?


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I wonder if this person had been allowed to play girls soccer, would he have turned out different?
> Confused? I would have to give that a yes.
> Chelsea Manning Unleashed: Endorses Political Violence… ‘No Exceptions’ Open Borders… Get Rid of Police, Prisons


what sport/league should this "normal" person have been allowed to play to turn out different?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_trump_2005_tape_i_grab_women_by_the_pussy.html


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> How simple do you think it is for one to transition? Surgery cant be done until a panel of doctors agree, and there are many steps in between. But, lets assume one could find enough quacks to fake the required bar... how much for you to transition? If ppl would do this for $, so would you. Whats your number? I'll hapilly start a kickstarter campaign to help you out, since you seem to think this as some sort adventure worth undertaking for the right price...


No surgery is required for the transition.  Hormone Replacement Therapy is sufficient.

I can't play soccer and money doesn't mean that much to me.  

Considering some of the stories that we hear about the ethics of certain parents and coaches,  with the hypothetical salaries in the millions, and what many athletes have already done throughout history to win or make gobs of money, you don't think it might happen? I'll end this part of the discussion.

Funny when I made my original comment I wondered why people can't discuss things in a friendly manner, even when we disagree.  Didn't quite happen.

I've learned some things about Transgenders and Hermaphrodites during this discussion,  and the difficulties they face, which is a good thing(not the difficulties but me learning).   Making rules that are fair to everyone is a difficult thing and I don't envy the people that need to make these decisions.


----------



## espola (Aug 21, 2017)

Fact said:


> It was initially how she looks but soon became about the fact that her testosterone level is 3 times that of an average female which is a legitimate concern since some groups have suggested that gender be based on a sliding scale as oppose to female or male.
> 
> And she has spoken about the subject during the Rio Olympics NBC?  did a great interview with her about her journey.


And if you look closely you will find men whose testosterone level is only 1/3 that of the average male.  

It is generally accepted that men with higher natural levels of testosterone and similar hormones excel in some sports, and have an advantage in others.  Grow up and live with it.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Which part of my post made think this was a joke?


I have two friends battling cancer that would gladly trade being gender confused with fighting for their lives...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> No surgery is required for the transition.  Hormone Replacement Therapy is sufficient.
> 
> I can't play soccer and money doesn't mean that much to me.
> 
> ...


So maybe a better issue to try to tackle is lack of ethics of some parents / players instead of lumping an actual diagnosable condition into this... I don't disagree, there are plenty of dishonest people, but to suggest that rules be made, that are in their core designed to discriminate, are the way to combat dishonesty, is at the very least naïve. Keep in mind, these rules will have lasting affects on the kids directly and indirectly impacted by this, but are really not very likely to discourage dishonest behavior...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> I have two friends battling cancer that would gladly trade being gender confused with fighting for their lives...


You may be misunderstanding my comment... this topic discusses a diagnosable condition with agreed upon method of treatment. The point of the post is not to take away from difficulties of those fighting cancer, but to illustrate a simple fact: medical conditions can be treated, so why are picking which we treat and which we don't...


----------



## Fact (Aug 21, 2017)

espola said:


> And if you look closely you will find men whose testosterone level is only 1/3 that of the average male.
> 
> It is generally accepted that men with higher natural levels of testosterone and similar hormones excel in some sports, and have an advantage in others.  Grow up and live with it.


Sorry I did not know that I was complaining about testosterone levels.  My point is that this is a very complicated isssue as gender is not black and white as evidenced by a group wanting to have a sliding scale with a whole host of genders on a spectrum.


----------



## Eagle33 (Aug 21, 2017)

It is a fact that few parents/coaches over the years used older players by falsifying birth documents, etc so they can win a league, State Cup or whatever else. 
It is a fact that Cal South allows girls to play on boys teams (not vise-versa). 
So whats the problem to allow 1 transgender player to play on a girls team? 
I fail to see how 1 player would make any difference on overall team performance.
It may at u-little games, but who cares?
Now if we talking about the whole team....then its a different issue.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> I have two friends battling cancer that would gladly trade being gender confused with fighting for their lives...


 What's your point?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Fact said:


> Sorry I did not know that I was complaining about testosterone levels.  My point is that this is a very complicated isssue as gender is not black and white as evidenced by a group wanting to have a sliding scale with a whole host of genders on a spectrum.


Gender is not black and white. That's science and human nature. Why do you take issue with that?


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So maybe a better issue to try to tackle is lack of ethics of some parents / players instead of lumping an actual diagnosable condition into this... I don't disagree, there are plenty of dishonest people, but to suggest that rules be made, that are in their core designed to discriminate, are the way to combat dishonesty, is at the very least naïve. Keep in mind, these rules will have lasting affects on the kids directly and indirectly impacted by this, but are really not very likely to discourage dishonest behavior...


I see your point and I wasn't trying to make light of transgenders but instead emphasize that people will look to cheat.   We are actually agreeing on the rules.   It isn't an easy thing to make these rules and as I mentioned I'm glad I don't have to make them.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> When 'God' gives one cancer make sure they play that hand out too, right?


Here you go. You are equating Cancer to being gender confused by posting the above. Dang dude..oops, maybe dang girl? 

I guess were headed in this direction...

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> what sport/league should this "normal" person have been allowed to play to turn out different?
> 
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_trump_2005_tape_i_grab_women_by_the_pussy.html


Sarc


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Here you go. You are equating Cancer to being gender confused by posting the above. Dang dude..oops, maybe dang girl?
> 
> I guess were headed in this direction...
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/


You're scared of a 51 year old woman playing college basketball? What a snowflake!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> It is a fact that few parents/coaches over the years used older players by falsifying birth documents, etc so they can win a league, State Cup or whatever else.
> It is a fact that Cal South allows girls to play on boys teams (not vise-versa).
> So whats the problem to allow 1 transgender player to play on a girls team?
> I fail to see how 1 player would make any difference on overall team performance.
> ...


How do you decide who gets to choose?
Come one come all.


----------



## push_up (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Name one man who has transitioned just for the financial benefit of being a woman


Bruce Jenner.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Here you go. You are equating Cancer to being gender confused by posting the above. Dang dude..oops, maybe dang girl?
> 
> I guess were headed in this direction...
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/


Yes! In this context I see no difference if you want to deny everyone w a diagnosable condition access to sports.

But my original comment had little to do w this specific issue, and more to do w those advocating one play the hand they're dealt...


----------



## Zvezdas (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Here you go. You are equating Cancer to being gender confused by posting the above. Dang dude..oops, maybe dang girl?
> 
> I guess were headed in this direction...
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/



Some here are using god conveniently for personal prejudices. Instead of using religion to excuse the more banal prejudices that people harbor, those who believe in a god should use their faith as a motivator to be kind and do good!


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> Some here are using god conveniently for personal prejudices. Instead of using religion to excuse the more banal prejudices that people harbor, those who believe in a god should use their faith as a motivator to be kind and do good!


These are the same people that would have balked at their child playing with African American children in the 50s, and gay children in the 90s. Let's hope that with our children's generation comes more enlightenment.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> These are the same people that would have balked at their child playing with African American children in the 50s, and gay children in the 90s. Let's hope that with our children's generation comes more enlightenment.


You have no idea who I am... to post something like this just goes to show your ignorance.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Yes! In this context I see no difference if you want to deny everyone w a diagnosable condition access to sports.
> 
> But my original comment had little to do w this specific issue, and more to do w those advocating one play the hand they're dealt...


You keep posting diagnosable condition as if that is supposed to mean something. It's not only ignorant to try and lump all, as you put it, diagnosable conditions together but I will guess that people with the "diagnosable " diseases of Cancer, Auto Immune Disease, Parkinsons the list goes on, would say that they are not even remotely the same as being gender confused. 

I also doubt that people that are battling Cancer and other such "diagnosable diseases " are overly concerned if they can, or if their kid can, play on a soccer team...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

Zvezdas said:


> Some here are using god conveniently for personal prejudices. Instead of using religion to excuse the more banal prejudices that people harbor, those who believe in a god should use their faith as a motivator to be kind and do good!


Seems as though you "liked" Chargerfans post? So you too choose to judge people that you don't know?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> These are the same people that would have balked at their child playing with African American children in the 50s, and gay children in the 90s. Let's hope that with our children's generation comes more enlightenment.


Too funny, you are arguing something that you know nothing about and have no experience in.
Typical  white, straight SJW.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> You keep posting diagnosable condition as if that is supposed to mean something. It's not only ignorant to try and lump all, as you put it, diagnosable conditions together but I will guess that people with the "diagnosable " diseases of Cancer, Auto Immune Disease, Parkinsons the list goes on, would say that they are not even remotely the same as being gender confused.
> 
> I also doubt that people that are battling Cancer and other such "diagnosable diseases " are overly concerned if they can, or if their kid can, play on a soccer team...


Would "athlete's foot" have been more palatable to you? I use term "diagnosable condition" on purpose... seems that some people aren't able to see similarities in what we're discussing here...

Simple question, are you ok allowing a kid w/ cancer/diabetes/autism/common cold/[insert condition of choice here] play soccer (assuming he/she is able/wants to)? If so, you should not disallow a kid w/ gender identity disorder same privilege... and note that it's not "gender confusion" as this implies they're somehow confused and perhaps some form of education/explanation would change that...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

@TheIronCurtain . Are you OK with this?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Would "athlete's foot" have been more palatable to you? I use term "diagnosable condition" on purpose... seems that some people aren't able to see similarities in what we're discussing here...
> 
> Simple question, are you ok allowing a kid w/ cancer/diabetes/autism/common cold/[insert condition of choice here] play soccer (assuming he/she is able/wants to)? If so, you should not disallow a kid w/ gender identity disorder same privilege... and note that it's not "gender confusion" as this implies they're somehow confused and perhaps some form of education/explanation would change that...


Simple answer. If the kid wants to play let them play in on their biological team. Curious though, when did GID become diagnosable?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> @TheIronCurtain . Are you OK with this?
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/



Why are you obsessed with this 51 year old lady who wants to play college soccer?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Simple answer. If the kid wants to play let them play in on their biological team. Curious though, when did GID become diagnosable?


You're quite right as it is not a medical condition.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> @TheIronCurtain . Are you OK with this?
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/california-transgender-woman-plays-college-basketball/


Yes, is there something I should not be ok with?


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You're quite right as it is not a medical condition.


when did either of you get your MD?

http://behavenet.com/node/21626 -- this is DSM IV, we're on V (I think)... This condition was added to DSM III in 1980's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Simple answer. If the kid wants to play let them play in on their biological team. Curious though, when did GID become diagnosable?


GID (now known as Gender Dysphoria) was added to DSM III in 1980's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria


----------



## Fact (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Gender is not black and white. That's science and human nature. Why do you take issue with that?


Geeze. You are so angry you cannot even see that I am agreeing with you.  I said gender is not black and white.  That is why I brought up Caster and people wanting a sliding scale.  Goodbye.


----------



## push_up (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> GID (now known as Gender Dysphoria) was added to DSM III in 1980's
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria


You prove my point.  The DSM is a book that describes all types of mental illness.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Simple answer. If the kid wants to play let them play in on their biological team. Curious though, when did GID become diagnosable?


So, seems to me we're missing a whole league here...


push_up said:


> You prove my point.  The DSM is a book that describes all types of mental illness.


Most comments I've made thus far, I tried (though may not have succeeded) to stay away from calling people names or attacking them personally... YOU on the other hand, don't deserve that. Keep on stigmatizing mental illness as something that is different from other illness. Keep telling yourself that those w/ mental illness are weaker than you or somehow less deserving. Illness is an illness regardless of which body part if affects and warrants a basic amount of human treatment. To YOU, it seems that mental illness isn't worthy of same amount of understanding or basic human compation... Luckily, DSM IV also has a definition for what you're suffering from: http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch12_abnormal/categorization_of_intellectual_disability.html


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

@push_up, you should try to put as much effort in to educating yourself as you do in to tagging posts as 'dumb' cause you eithet choose not to or are incapable of understanding/agreeing with their content...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

So, I'm relatively new to this board, are members like @push_up the 'norm'? Here are his (I assume 'his' based on content) posts: http://socalsoccer.com/search/2371092/
Is he really this ignorant or just trolling?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, I'm relatively new to this board, are members like @push_up the 'norm'? Here are his (I assume 'his' based on content) posts: http://socalsoccer.com/search/2371092/
> Is he really this ignorant or just trolling?


Considering Trump still has an approval rating of about 35% you can't be shocked at ignorance anymore.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Considering Trump still has an approval rating of about 35% you can't be shocked at ignorance anymore.


Funny, that's just about the amount of electoral votes Trump beat Hillary by.


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

I am not a doctor, an expert in gender identification, or a parent of a transgender. I can honestly say that I really only know a couple of people in my lifetime that fit in this category.  Do I foresee the idea that this thread introduces being a big issue? No. Do is see it causing trouble inthe future?  Yes.  The problem is that even though it is classified as a diagnosable condition it is not the type of thing that is able to be determined by a blood test or lab sample.  It comes down to a feeling.  And for every person who is certain that they are the opposite sex than their biology, there are probably a bunch more who "feel" like that may be but just,don't know.   So if a team is playing another team with someone who may be of the opposite gender the only response needed by that person or their coach to an inquiry is that they say that the player identifies as a girl.  They don't have to be in any sort of transition program, don't have to look like a girl, or anything else traditionally associated with gender identity.  Are you going to be the opposing coach who is now labeled as a bigot, homophobe, or flat earther (something that came up earlier in this thread)?  This s the issue that school administrators, the military, businesses etc are dealing with already .  Does that boy want to use the girls bathroom because they are legitimately feeling like they are female or are they just being a pervert?  Will people take advantage of the confusion for,their own gain?  Most,definitely.  Are people running scared with fears of offending someone or being sued by not allowing it to happen? Yes. Do I know the answer? No.    ( Great philosophical discussion though, it's too bad some on here get emotional and  just insult and name call simply because they have a difference of,opinion)


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Is this a joke? Both are medical conditions w/ scientifically recognized treatment options. What if a kid shows up on your sons/daughters team that has been diagnosed w
> gigantism, r u going to tell them they have a choice to play too? i dont see this having anything to do w 'integrity of sport', but keep using that as an excuse to discriminate. These are kids! This kid is already dealing w enough, give her a chance to have some modicum of childhood!


No.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> And while we're at, should there be separate leagues for homosexuals? Maybe blacks or hispanics? I mean, why not special league for short vs tall players? Sounds silly, no? So does a league for transgenders...


No.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

espola said:


> Ricky is not interested in logic.  He has a position to defend.


No.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> I am not a doctor, an expert in gender identification, or a parent of a transgender. I can honestly say that I really only know a couple of people in my lifetime that fit in this category.  Do I foresee the idea that this thread introduces being a big issue? No. Do is see it causing trouble inthe future?  Yes.  The problem is that even though it is classified as a diagnosable condition it is not the type of thing that is able to be determined by a blood test or lab sample.  It comes down to a feeling.  And for every person who is certain that they are the opposite sex than their biology, there are probably a bunch more who "feel" like that may be but just,don't know.   So if a team is playing another team with someone who may be of the opposite gender the only response needed by that person or their coach to an inquiry is that they say that the player identifies as a girl.  They don't have to be in any sort of transition program, don't have to look like a girl, or anything else traditionally associated with gender identity.  Are you going to be the opposing coach who is now labeled as a bigot, homophobe, or flat earther (something that came up earlier in this thread)?  This s the issue that school administrators, the military, businesses etc are dealing with already .  Does that boy want to use the girls bathroom because they are legitimately feeling like they are female or are they just being a pervert?  Will people take advantage of the confusion for,their own gain?  Most,definitely.  Are people running scared with fears of offending someone or being sued by not allowing it to happen? Yes. Do I know the answer? No.    ( Great philosophical discussion though, it's too bad some on here get emotional and  just insult and name call simply because they have a difference of,opinion)


Having dome some very cursory reading on this, the science that exists today does point to 'more than a feeling' argument. Lots more needs to be studied, but there is scientific evidence of biochemical difference in a wide range of areas. Neurotransmitters have receptors that are triggered by sex hormones. Interesting read: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335177/

But you are right, this is not black & white, and ppl should seek to understand instead of condemn the unfamiliar. This is how progress is made.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Having dome some very cursory reading on this, the science that exists today does point to 'more than a feeling' argument. Lots more needs to be studied, but there is scientific evidence of biochemical difference in a wide range of areas. Neurotransmitters have receptors that are triggered by sex hormones. Interesting read:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335177/
> 
> But you are right, this is not black & white, and ppl should seek to understand instead of condemn the unfamiliar. This is how progress is made.


Maybe, but that issue has nothing to do with how this phenomena should be handled fairly and in a way that does not compromise the integrity of sports.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Considering Trump still has an approval rating of about 35% you can't be shocked at ignorance anymore.


He has a higher approval rating than the chargers.
"charger fan"

You deserve eachother.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> He has a higher approval rating than the chargers.
> "charger fan"
> 
> You deserve eachother.


I steer clear of men who brag about sexual assault, and serial liars. Not my cup of tea.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Maybe, but that issue has nothing to do with how this phenomena should be handled fairly and in a way that does not compromise the integrity of sports.


So, do whatever is right as long as it doesn't inconvenience me? I'm still missing the point of how having a transgender kid compromises the integrity of the sport. Anyone doing performance enhancing drug testing at this age? That possibility has a much greater chance of occuring compared to a boy impersonating a girl for the purpose of winning a soccer game...


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, do whatever is right as long as it doesn't inconvenience me? I'm still missing the point of how having a transgender kid compromises the integrity of the sport. Anyone doing performance enhancing drug testing at this age? That possibility has a much greater chance of occuring compared to a boy impersonating a girl for the purpose of winning a soccer game...


It's like when they said allowing gay marriage would somehow damage the institution of marriage. The world isn't going to fall apart because your child may compete against a transgender child.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Why are you obsessed with this 51 year old lady who wants to play college soccer?


Try paying attention to what is posted Chargerfan and at least pretend that you read the article about the  Womens BASKETBALL team...


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Try paying attention to what is posted Chargerfan and at least pretend that you read the article about the  Womens BASKETBALL team...


I read it. Good for her. What's your point?


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, seems to me we're missing a whole league here...


You're still trying to equate a Disease to a Syndrome.  Not exactly the same thing.

I'll await your take on the link that I've already posted twice for you. Maybe you can help Chargerfan actually read the article.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> You're still trying to equate a Disease to a Syndrome.  Not exactly the same thing.
> 
> I'll await your take on the link that I've already posted twice for you. Maybe you can help Chargerfan actually read the article.


I replied, I watched, what am I supposed to be concerned with? Her being 6'6"? Her being different? Or her going back to college at 51? Seems like a pretty positive article all around that demonstrates transgender players can contribute to team as much as anyone else...


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I steer clear of men who brag about sexual assault, and serial liars. Not my cup of tea.


I never put tea in my cereal either
See, common ground.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, do whatever is right as long as it doesn't inconvenience me? I'm still missing the point of how having a transgender kid compromises the integrity of the sport. Anyone doing performance enhancing drug testing at this age? That possibility has a much greater chance of occuring compared to a boy impersonating a girl for the purpose of winning a soccer game...


You are conflating all kinds of things that dont belong together.
The issue is transgenders in sports and how to address the issues of fair play and sporting integrity.
Convenience or inconvenience has nothing to do with it.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> You're still trying to equate a Disease to a Syndrome.  Not exactly the same thing.
> 
> I'll await your take on the link that I've already posted twice for you. Maybe you can help Chargerfan actually read the article.


Not equating one to the other in terms of the actual conditions. Neither gives one the right to discriminate. The whole point of comparison was in response to a comment that ppl should play their hand. If it is a condition that can be medically treated & make you feel better, physically and/or emotionally, why would one have to 'play their hand' w/o intervention?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> It's like when they said allowing gay marriage would somehow damage the institution of marriage. The world isn't going to fall apart because your child may compete against a transgender child.


Its not the same thing.
Its a sports issue, and scientifically speaking, some athletes would have an unfair advantage based on their birth gender, or the taking of supplements that would be banned for any other athlete.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Having dome some very cursory reading on this, the science that exists today does point to 'more than a feeling' argument. Lots more needs to be studied, but there is scientific evidence of biochemical difference in a wide range of areas. Neurotransmitters have receptors that are triggered by sex hormones. Interesting read:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335177/
> 
> But you are right, this is not black & white, and ppl should seek to understand instead of condemn the unfamiliar. This is how progress is made.


A good read ...

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/10/fifty-six-shades-of-gender-insanity/


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Its not the same thing.
> Its a sports issue, and scientifically speaking, some athletes would have an unfair advantage based on their birth gender, or the taking of supplements that would be banned for any other athlete.


Shhhhh...don't post that. It's a secret


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> I replied, I watched, what am I supposed to be concerned with? Her being 6'6"? Her being different? Or her going back to college at 51? Seems like a pretty positive article all around that demonstrates transgender players can contribute to team as much as anyone else...


But you are supposed to HATE her for being transgender. That is their point.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> A good read ...
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/10/fifty-six-shades-of-gender-insanity/


This is a good read if you are a bigoted moron


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> But you are supposed to HATE her for being transgender. That is their point.


Why?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> This is a good read if you are a bigoted moron


I sense some pent up sexual frustration.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Why?


That's a good question. I was moved by the story and very impressed at her taking this shot at 51.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> That's a good question. I was moved by the story and very impressed at her taking this shot at 51.


Who said they hated her?
Who said we are supposed to hate her?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Who said they hated her?
> Who said we are supposed to hate her?


Multi sport, who seems to take personal offense at a 51 year old lady playing basketball


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Multi sport, who seems to take personal offense at a 51 year old lady playing basketball


Which post?
I cant find anyone saying we are supposed to hate anyone, except you, a few posts back.


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Having dome some very cursory reading on this, the science that exists today does point to 'more than a feeling' argument. Lots more needs to be studied, but there is scientific evidence of biochemical difference in a wide range of areas. Neurotransmitters have receptors that are triggered by sex hormones. Interesting read:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335177/
> 
> But you are right, this is not black & white, and ppl should seek to understand instead of condemn the unfamiliar. This is how progress is made.


The issue is that nobody has a lab kit with them on the soccer field so if the situation arises you have no choice but to take the person or coaches word for it.  The mere questioning of the legitimacy of fairness is considered bigotry.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Sorr


Multi Sport said:


> A good read ...
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/10/fifty-six-shades-of-gender-insanity/


sorry, the source doesn't pass muster w me...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Yes, is there something I should not be ok with?


Wow. 
1. Unfair advantage
2. Would not want my daughter playing against him
3. Girls are not biologically built the same as men and some of the teeneage girls can get hurt.
4. He took away a roster spot away from a worthy girl.

But apparently in your PC world none of this matters.

Like equating deadly diseases with syndromes. 

Hopefully none of us here on the forum actually have to see their daughter play against 50 man who is trying to relieve his glory days..


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Sorr
> 
> sorry, the source doesn't pass muster w me...


Ok.. so now it's ok to prejudge a source.

Enjoy the evening............


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> The issue is that nobody has a lab kit with them on the soccer field so if the situation arises you have no choice but to take the person or coaches word for it.  The mere questioning of the legitimacy of fairness is considered bigotry.


How many girls have you tested on the field? I see lots of girls w masculine features on the field, should we test them? Look at NWSL, many athletes in that league don't exactly exude classic femininity. Should we all have a chance to examine them? Leagues allow players in, assuming they followed the rules like checking relevant documentation. Having anyone outside the governing body imply they're intitled to perform an examination on said athlete is simply unacceptable!


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> The issue is that nobody has a lab kit with them on the soccer field so if the situation arises you have no choice but to take the person or coaches word for it.  The mere questioning of the legitimacy of fairness is considered bigotry.


If its not bigotry who cares what some asshole thinks.
The integrity of a sport rests on delivering a fair contest.
Without that, might as well shitcan the whole thing.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Ok.. so now it's ok to prejudge a source.
> 
> Enjoy the evening............


LOL - of course!!!! Every single thing you read you should see who wrote it & if it is considered a credible source, credibility is earned not assumed...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Wow.
> 1. Unfair advantage
> 2. Would not want my daughter playing against him
> 3. Girls are not biologically built the same as men and some of the teeneage girls can get hurt.
> ...


HER, I think that distinction alone is where you lost your argument...


----------



## MarkM (Aug 21, 2017)

Setting aside those who are transgender, would it be fair to everyone involved to allow boys to start signing up and participating in girls' leagues?  Maybe it would - I don't know.  Although I think that going co-ed could lead to the near elimination of women in sports, something no one wants to see happen.

But if you do think it would be unfair, why does it become fair because someone transitions?  I think that that is the basic question that lingers.  Can someone answer that without calling me a bigot or claiming that I hate transgender people?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> HER, I think that distinction alone is where you lost your argument...


Why do you people try to make things so complicated? You over think and over analyze everything.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

MarkM said:


> Setting aside those who are transgender, would it be fair to everyone involved to allow boys to start signing up and participating in girls' leagues?  Maybe it would - I don't know.  Although I think that going co-ed could lead to the near elimination of women in sports, something no one wants to see happen.
> 
> But if you do think it would be unfair, why does it become fair because someone transitions?  I think that that is the basic question that lingers.  Can someone answer that without calling me a bigot or claiming that I hate transgender people?


I think this would largely depend on the definition of the word 'transitioned'. If you stick to its classic definition, which is the same definition the medical community uses (as far as I know), it would imply that 'he' is no longer 'he' & is now in fact a 'she'... Some would argue that 'he' was never a 'he' in the first place & was simply born with a defect, kind of like a 6th toe...


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

Everyone is assuming it would be one what if the team was 6 transgendered ?  Could a player play one weekend on the boys team and the next as a guest on the girls team?  If you aren't allowed to question for fear of being labeled,as a homophobe or bigot then there is no control.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> HER, I think that distinction alone is where you lost your argument...


If a college player can't handle a 51 year old that is sad


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Why do you people try to make things so complicated? You over think and over analyze everything.


'You people'??? J/k

Details are important. You're making an argument & words you choose demonstrate your position, understanding & ability to be see the other POV. Refering to a transitioned female as 'he' or 'it' is considered offensive. So, when one leads their argument w/ an offensive statement, the other side gets to ignore the rest Just my opinion...


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

MarkM said:


> Setting aside those who are transgender, would it be fair to everyone involved to allow boys to start signing up and participating in girls' leagues?  Maybe it would - I don't know.  Although I think that going co-ed could lead to the near elimination of women in sports, something no one wants to see happen.
> 
> But if you do think it would be unfair, why does it become fair because someone transitions?  I think that that is the basic question that lingers.  Can someone answer that without calling me a bigot or claiming that I hate transgender people?


Because I think it is an adult's job to make a child feel loved and welcomed, not like an outcast. Transgender kids are going through enough without adults bullying them out of playing a team sport.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Everyone is assuming it would be one what if the team was 6 transgendered ?  Could a player play one weekend on the boys team and the next as a guest on the girls team?  If you aren't allowed to question for fear of being labeled,as a homophobe or bigot then there is no control.


One player = one player card... there are rules about playing for more than 1 team...


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Everyone is assuming it would be one what if the team was 6 transgendered ?  Could a player play one weekend on the boys team and the next as a guest on the girls team?  If you aren't allowed to question for fear of being labeled,as a homophobe or bigot then there is no control.


Who cares how many transgender children are on a team? If they feel safe, and are happy, how does that hurt you? 

And girl can guest on a boys team. What's the big deal?


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Everyone is assuming it would be one what if the team was 6 transgendered ?  Could a player play one weekend on the boys team and the next as a guest on the girls team?  If you aren't allowed to question for fear of being labeled,as a homophobe or bigot then there is no control.


Here are some numbers about % of general populations.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf

All states are well below 1%. If you see a team w 30-50% transgender players, feel free to inquire, doubt anyone would call you a biggot for asking about a statistical outlier...

Given that the # is 0.5% how many have you seen playing? Why do you think that is?


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> One player = one player card... there are rules about playing for more than 1 team...


Guest play?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Guest play?


Any girl can guest play on a boys team and mine has


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Who cares how many transgender children are on a team? If they feel safe, and are happy, how does that hurt you?
> 
> And girl can guest on a boys team. What's the big deal?


Not very concerned about littles .  Looking more at olders...


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> Not very concerned about littles .  Looking more at olders...


What are you concerned about?


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> But you are supposed to HATE her for being transgender. That is their point.


Chargerfan... you really like to assume,  don't you. You're also filled with hate towards people who don't think like you. Iron curtain and I don't agree but you are injecting hate into it. Sad....


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> HER, I think that distinction alone is where you lost your argument...


That's YOUR opinion...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> That's YOUR opinion...


100% agree, all my posts are my opinion only, w/ an occasional reference


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> 'You people'??? J/k
> 
> Details are important. You're making an argument & words you choose demonstrate your position, understanding & ability to be see the other POV. Refering to a transitioned female as 'he' or 'it' is considered offensive. So, when one leads their argument w/ an offensive statement, the other side gets to ignore the rest Just my opinion...


But this is hypothetical so maybe it's you that is offended when there is no reason to be. We are just talking about something that might happen.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> 'You people'??? J/k
> 
> Details are important. You're making an argument & words you choose demonstrate your position, understanding & ability to be see the other POV. Refering to a transitioned female as 'he' or 'it' is considered offensive. So, when one leads their argument w/ an offensive statement, the other side gets to ignore the rest Just my opinion...


You people = liberal Democrat, around here.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> LOL - of course!!!! Every single thing you read you should see who wrote it & if it is considered a credible source, credibility is earned not assumed...


Really? So you read the article, considered the source and deemed it not worthy? Or was it that it did not agree with your narrative...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> HER, I think that distinction alone is where you lost your argument...


Again.. YOUR opinion. And in my opinion you lost the debate about 2 pages back..


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> But this is hypothetical so maybe it's you that is offended when there is no reason to be. We are just talking about something that might happen.


'You are but what am I?' Is this now how we lead?  

If you're going to make an argument about race, for example, leading with 'Them n-word' probably wouldn't get the result you are after. I have no reason to be offended by any of this personally, just pointing out that this is a good way to have POV passed over...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Again.. YOUR opinion. And in my opinion you lost the debate about 2 pages back..


Ok, I can live w/ that


----------



## wildcat66 (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> What are you concerned about?


4 sixteen year old males who identify as females whether legitimate or not ( remember to question it is brandishing you as a bigot,homophobe,religious zealot) playing on a team against all females....


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

wildcat66 said:


> 4 sixteen year old males who identify as females whether legitimate or not ( remember to question it is brandishing you as a bigot,homophobe,religious zealot) playing on a team against all females....


It's getting tiring to reply to all this foolish drivel. Have a good night.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 21, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Really? So you read the article, considered the source and deemed it not worthy? Or was it that it did not agree with your narrative...


It was publishef on federalist.com - an opinion piece on a conservative web site. I don't need someone elses opinion added, you have yours, I have mine. I tried posting facts from sources known for facts, not opinions... nothing inherently wrong w opinion pieces, but thats what they are, opinions...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> If a college player can't handle a 51 year old that is sad


You obviously did not read the link and see the pictures.

 Not surprising especially since you brought hate and race into the discussion...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 21, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> It was publishef on federalist.com - an opinion piece on a conservative web site. I don't need someone elses opinion added, you have yours, I have mine. I tried posting facts from sources known for facts, not opinions... nothing inherently wrong w opinion pieces, but thats what they are, opinions...


You should open your mind and read the article.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 21, 2017)

http://www.azfamily.com/story/36174496/phoenix-police-investigating-assault-of-transgender-teen


----------



## Supermodel56 (Aug 21, 2017)

Holy crap... ok, i'm going to give my two cents if anyone is still up for somewhat civilized discussion... it's a very important question.

Personally, I don't care if the kid is transgendered or not but two things come to mind for me:

1) I don't think they created a girls league simply to segregate the sexes, rather it was accepted that due to genetics, men/boys typically have physical advantages over women/girls - and as such, they wanted to have a league where women/girls could find fair and challenging competition - the game is much more fun when it's a level playing field. Ultimately, if you're playing a sport, you should be playing in a league and with teammates where you are able to compete on relatively the same level so you're challenged. Boy or girl, if you're completely dominating everybody, it's not doing you, nor anybody else any favors and most players who want to be the best will simply play up or in another league. For girls, especially in smaller towns, that may mean playing on a boys team and most of us wouldn't have an issue with that - in fact, we'd applaud her. I think from reading the posts, this is the primary concern - that a player with the genetic makeup of a boy would naturally have an unfair advantage over the rest of the girls.  I guess my view is, well, if this player who is a biological male truly is playing at the same competitive level as the other girls in that league, by all means go for it - transgendered or not. That said, if they are completely dominating or are obviously at an unfair advantage, like what we've seen in wrestling - it truly undermines the integrity of "fair" competition and again, really does the kid no favors - they should find/play/wrestle in a class/league that would be challenging for them.  In soccer, that could mean the transgender kid could play up or with their biological gender - like any other girl/boy who was outplaying the rest of their teammates and league. 

At the highest levels, this method does break down a bit because we all know that there are teams/countries out there who would be more than willing to take advantage of this to win - for example, what if Russia decides to bring on a whole team of transgendered players into the women's competition? In theory, if it's allowed, that could completely change the game and could possibly completely ruin it for genetic females to have an opportunity to play if the rest of the world followed suit. Which is why I think at that level, they probably should enforce genetic gender and brings me to point #2. 

2) In regards to sensitivity towards the player - well, this is a tough one, but my perspective is the world cannot revolve around one person, nor minority (and I say this as a minority). Everyone has their issues and things they're struggling with. The same kid who's dealing with transgender issues may have a teammate or opponent who's dealing with something else - and they could completely conflict. You really can't expect everyone to cater to your kid's needs. Life is tough. Just because my kid is allergic to peanut butter, I can't expect every other kid in school to give up eating PB&J sandwiches... Yes, my kid could die. But it is a gross overstep in someone else's freedom to pursue their happiness and well, my kid needs to find a way to accept and survive with his condition. Allowing a transgendered kid to play in a league where he/she is dominating other players may bolster his/her confidence, but at the same time can be discouraging to numerous other players he/she competes against and ruin the game for them. If you stick with #1, I think most people would not have as much issue with it.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts... feel free to flame away... =)


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

I say play in the gender you "currently" are. If you have a penis then you play with boys and if you don't you play with girls. 
That's it.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> I say play in the gender you "currently" are. If you have a penis then you play with boys and if you don't you play with girls.
> That's it.


There are almost 60 genders now.


----------



## espola (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> I say play in the gender you "currently" are. If you have a penis then you play with boys and if you don't you play with girls.
> That's it.


I recall that when girls first started playing Little League some leagues required all players to prove they were wearing a cup by knocking on it ("cup check").  Girls were not excluded from that exercise.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> I say play in the gender you "currently" are. If you have a penis then you play with boys and if you don't you play with girls.
> That's it.


Or you can do what espoola does and play with yourself.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> There are almost 60 genders now.


Did you include Espoolas'? 60 1/2.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 22, 2017)

A few comments then I am finished here

1. Who does a genital check? The DOC, team manager? Or is it done on an ad hoc basis if another parents questions a child gender. Would my 5'8, 140 lb 13 year old with short hair be checked to make sure she doesn't have a penis?

2. Your children may have already played against a transgender girl and you had no idea. Unless you are a weirdo who obsesses about that sort of thing.

3. Since you guys dont want your daughters to play against competition that supposedly has a physical advantage, I guess we need a separate league for tall girls, big boned girls, fast girls, girls with professional athlete parents, etc. 

4. Since, according you you guys,transgender girls are all physically imposing Messi's, do you know any that would like to join my kids teams??


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Thank heavens the parents of that little girl are not as closed minded as you are.





chargerfan said:


> God doesn't make mistakes right





chargerfan said:


> These are the same people that would have balked at their child playing with African American children in the 50s, and gay children in the 90s. Let's hope that with our children's generation comes more enlightenment.





chargerfan said:


> Considering Trump still has an approval rating of about 35% you can't be shocked at ignorance anymore.





chargerfan said:


> It's like when they said allowing gay marriage would somehow damage the institution of marriage. The world isn't going to fall apart because your child may compete against a transgender child.





chargerfan said:


> But you are supposed to HATE her for being transgender. That is their point.


My bad. Add politics and sexual orientation to the hate and race you brought to forum as well.


----------



## push_up (Aug 22, 2017)

Ten dollars says chargerfan shaves her mustache every morning.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> My bad. Add politics and sexual orientation to the hate and race you brought to forum as well.


When that's all you got.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

push_up said:


> Ten dollars says chargerfan shaves her mustache every morning.


Gotta play the hand God dealt you.


----------



## LilStriker (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> A few comments then I am finished here
> 
> 1. Who does a genital check? The DOC, team manager? Or is it done on an ad hoc basis if another parents questions a child gender. Would my 5'8, 140 lb 13 year old with short hair be checked to make sure she doesn't have a penis?
> 
> ...


1) I see your attempt at dramatizing the opposing view to make it seem ridiculous, but in most cases you would really just need to check their birth certificate, most states will only allow birth certificate changes after reassignment surgery, rendering genital checks unnecessary. But again, to me it's not an issue about actual gender so long as she/he is playing at the right level, which leads to #2.

2) exactly, I don't think most people care in this situation.  Seems like more people have an issue when there is more attention drawn to it and it becomes more about making a statement for transgender rights, etc... than about the game. to me it seems like it was rarely ever an issue in North Carolina until someone tried to force people to allow transgendered people into the other bathrooms (which to me is obvious, if you're dressed and look like a woman and not looking for trouble, just go in the women's bathroom, do your business and be done just like everyone else!) - if everyone just went about their business, it would've been fine with rare exception. Wasn't the whole point of it to draw less attention to transgendered? And yet somehow it became a national issue that's dividing the country - and all over a very small percentage of the population.

3) again, see my post above that you blindly rated "dumb" - in all those cases, significantly bigger/stronger/faster/genetics, all those parents would most likely play their kids up if they could. And if they didn't, you'd probably hear parents bitching on the sidelines about that player as well if they were just clearly above their peers. 

4) again, not sure why you rated the idea that so long as they fit in competitively it was fine as a dumb idea... it would appear to me that your goal is to force society to accept the idea of transgendered and less about soccer and fair competition. From my experience, the more you try to force people to your views or change their mind, the more pushback you're going to get. is your goal for the transgendered person to get a chance to play soccer or to make a statement?


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> When that's all you got.


In her case I'm sure she has more...


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

Why is it that it seems the main focus of Transgender agenda seems to be forcing people to accept them? Why cant they just do their "private" things/life in "PRIVATE!"  You can not force love, like or acceptance on people. We do not need to be educated on your version of why this should be ok.

Same with the Gay Pride movement... WHO GIVES A FLYING $HIT what you do in the privacy of your own home? Why do so many gay people feel the need to let the public know they are gay and then try and force acceptance down people throats! (Not literally)
Seriously WHY - Transgender-Gay- Bi sexual-Straight WHO CARES WTH your private sexual thoughts & desires are? Who cares what you do or live in your home?
STOP pushing all this on people, people are not wrong to disageee or agree with any of this stuff, everyone has their reasons based on their own personal thoughts, boundaries and life styles.
Trust me the more you shove your private life upon them the larger the divide gets!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Why is it that it seems the main focus of Transgender agenda seems to be forcing people to accept them? Why cant they just do their "private" things/life in "PRIVATE!"  You can not force love, like or acceptance on people. We do not need to be educated on your version of why this should be ok.
> 
> Same with the Gay Pride movement... WHO GIVES A FLYING $HIT what you do in the privacy of your own home? Why do so many gay people feel the need to let the public know they are gay and then try and force acceptance down people throats! (Not literally)
> Seriously WHY - Transgender-Gay- Bi sexual-Straight WHO CARES WTH your private sexual thoughts & desires are? Who cares what you do or live in your home?
> ...


I believe the people you are referring to are in the minority and I imagine they are embarrassing to the majority.


----------



## espola (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I believe the people you are referring to are in the minority and I imagine they are embarrassing to the majority.


Who embarrassed you?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

espola said:


> Who embarrassed you?


You, when you to claim to be a conservative. Dick.


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)




----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Why is it that it seems the main focus of Transgender agenda seems to be forcing people to accept them? Why cant they just do their "private" things/life in "PRIVATE!"  You can not force love, like or acceptance on people. We do not need to be educated on your version of why this should be ok.
> 
> Same with the Gay Pride movement... WHO GIVES A FLYING $HIT what you do in the privacy of your own home? Why do so many gay people feel the need to let the public know they are gay and then try and force acceptance down people throats! (Not literally)
> Seriously WHY - Transgender-Gay- Bi sexual-Straight WHO CARES WTH your private sexual thoughts & desires are? Who cares what you do or live in your home?
> ...


So, be whatever you are as long as I don't have acknowledge you exist? Isn't that the oposition stance on every single minority/under representation issue in history? 'Be gay, just don't let me see it', 'be black but dont offend my senses by using same bathroom'. I'm pretty sure you just verbolized the very defintion of the word bigotry...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I believe the people you are referring to are in the minority and I imagine they are embarrassing to the majority.


What exactly about different people embarasses you?

This thread started as an open discussion on pretty serious issue & has turned into an outlet for bigotry. 

Pretty f'ing disgusting!


----------



## espola (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> What exactly about different people embarasses you?
> 
> This thread started as an open discussion on pretty serious issue & has turned into an outlet for bigotry.
> 
> Pretty f'ing disgusting!


Loser joe (excuse me, it's convict joe now) never has anything useful to say.  He just follows his long-ago announced plan to post lies and insults trying to piss people off.


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, be whatever you are as long as I don't have acknowledge you exist? Isn't that the oposition stance on every single minority/under representation issue in history? 'Be gay, just don't let me see it', 'be black but dont offend my senses by using same bathroom'. I'm pretty sure you just verbolized the very defintion of the word bigotry...


Wow your delusional interpretation of what i wrote and what I meant by what I wrote is awesome! Your race baiting and fishing for some kind of rude rebuttal is not going to happen. I will repeat and say this several times so that maybe you will understand. How does someone see "gay"? Seriously how does someone see gay, straight, Bi or whatever your sexual preference is? That is my point exactly, WHY do you insist on showing people your Gay? What makes you think anyone cares your Gay?
What I wrote was very clear and simple..It has nothing to do with people judging  someone's sexual preference, it 100% has to do with MOST PEOPLE DO NOT GIVE A $HIT and do not need you showing, telling or sharing! Get IT we don't care, in other words it is NON of our business. 
And your Black reference is way off subject and so far in the past in the US that it will not be addressed for your entertainment.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Wow your delusional interpretation of what i wrote and what I meant by what I wrote is awesome! Your race baiting and fishing for some kind of rude rebuttal is not going to happen. I will repeat and say this several times so that maybe you will understand. How does someone see "gay"? Seriously how does someone see gay, straight, Bi or whatever your sexual preference is? That is my point exactly, WHY do you insist on showing people your Gay? What makes you think anyone cares your Gay?
> What I wrote was very clear and simple..It has nothing to do with people judging  someone's sexual preference, it 100% has to do with MOST PEOPLE DO NOT GIVE A $HIT and do not need you showing, telling or sharing! Get IT we don't care, in other words it is NON of our business.
> And your Black reference is way off subject and so far in the past in the US that it will not be addressed for your entertainment.


Consider re-reading what you write and see what it may sound like...

Please explain to me how I'm misinterpreting the following statements


> main focus of Transgender agenda seems to be forcing people to accept them


 -- "transgender agenda" and "forcing" -- their mere presence offends ppl in this thread?


> Why cant they just do their "private" things/life in "PRIVATE!


 -- definition of tolerance


> We do not need to be educated on your version of why this should be ok.


 -- I already know what I need to know, so don't try to educate me?


> Who cares what you do or live in your home?


 -- does that mean you care what they do/how they act in public?


> more you shove your private life


 - this thread was about a kid playing soccer -- clearing shoving her differences onto you was her primary objection...


----------



## push_up (Aug 22, 2017)

*“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”*

― George Carlin


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Consider re-reading what you write and see what it may sound like...
> 
> Please explain to me how I'm misinterpreting the following statements
> -- "transgender agenda" and "forcing" -- their mere presence offends ppl in this thread?
> ...


*Talk about beating a dead horse WOW your hard headed OR just bored and stupid? If you are not getting my meaning of NO ONE GIVES A FLYING $HIT WHAT YOUR SEXUAL DESIRES ARE - HELL IF YOU LIKE TO SHOVE SOCCER BALLS IN YOUR REAR MOST DONT CARE!!! GET IT WE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC DONT CARE! ITS THAT SIMPLE KEEP IT TO YOURSELF GAYS, STRAIGHTS, BI'S, and FREAKS!  *

*We were talking about in general at this point in the thread. Not some little He/She wanting to play soccer. *

Please explain to me how I'm misinterpreting the following statements
main focus of Transgender agenda seems to be forcing people to accept them
-- "transgender agenda" and "forcing" -- their mere presence offends ppl in this thread?
_*Again.. we were at this point talking in general, not about a single kid wanting to play on the opposite sex team.*_


Why cant they just do their "private" things/life in "PRIVATE!
-- definition of tolerance
_*Again..most don't care what you do in your home or what sexual preference you might have *_

We do not need to be educated on your version of why this should be ok.
-- I already know what I need to know, so don't try to educate me?
*Yes.. and again I am guessing most people do not want to know why, again NON of our business. *


Who cares what you do or live in your home?
-- does that mean you care what they do/how they act in public?
*I don't care what you do, but I don't think most need a public display on your sexual preference, straight, Gay, Bi, confused, or transitioning.     *

more you shove your private life
- this thread was about a kid playing soccer -- clearing shoving her differences onto you was her primary objection...
*And..AGAIN this thread was at this point talking more in general then about one little he/she Transgender. *


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> *Talk about beating a dead horse WOW your hard headed OR just bored and stupid? If you are not getting my meaning of NO ONE GIVES A FLYING $HIT WHAT YOUR SEXUAL DESIRES ARE - HELL IF YOU LIKE TO SHOVE SOCCER BALLS IN YOUR REAR MOST DONT CARE!!! GET IT WE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC DONT CARE! ITS THAT SIMPLE KEEP IT TO YOURSELF GAYS, STRAIGHTS, BI'S, and FREAKS!  *
> 
> *We were talking about in general at this point in the thread. Not some little He/She wanting to play soccer. *
> 
> ...


Got it, you made your point as elequantly as you're obviously able to... thank you for your thoughtful insight... 





> *KEEP IT TO YOURSELF GAYS, STRAIGHTS, BI'S, and FREAKS! *


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Got it, you made your point as elequantly as you're obviously able to...


No not at all,  I tried to get this across as simple and blunt as possible.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> What exactly about different people embarasses you?
> 
> This thread started as an open discussion on pretty serious issue & has turned into an outlet for bigotry.
> 
> Pretty f'ing disgusting!


You are not understanding what I said, the minority of the gay community[the protesting trouble makers] are embarrassing the majority of the gay community.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

espola said:


> Loser joe (excuse me, it's convict joe now) never has anything useful to say.  He just follows his long-ago announced plan to post lies and insults trying to piss people off.


It must be nap time at the hospice wing of the mental institution.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You are not understanding what I said, the minority of the gay community[the protesting trouble makers] are embarrassing the majority of the gay community.


You don't know any gay people, do you? I think you're just saying that the behavior is embarrassing for YOU.


----------



## sandshark (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You don't know any gay people, do you? I think you're just saying that the behavior is embarrassing for YOU.


Maybe he/she is Gay and not feeling a reason to advertise to the world? Maybe he/she has some class and keeps her sexual private life .. PRIVATE!


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 22, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Maybe he/she is Gay and not feeling a reason to advertise to the world? Maybe he/she has some class and keeps her sexual private life .. PRIVATE!


I hope you keep your heterosexuality to yourself and not advertise it to the world. Heterosexuals are always introducing their spouses, holding hands, calling each other pet names, kissing, even an occasional ass grab. All in public! Have some class!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You don't know any gay people, do you? I think you're just saying that the behavior is embarrassing for YOU.


Of course I do, I don't care what the gay community does, but don't push it on  normal people. Especially kids.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Of course I do, I don't care what the gay community does, but don't push it on  normal people. Especially kids.


And here I thought I was done with this 'Normal' people? Keep it from kids? Thank you for going back & making point again... you're talking about families and people, many of whom are more 'normal' than some of the hetetosexual families out there...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> You don't know any gay people, do you? I think you're just saying that the behavior is embarrassing for YOU.


*
Talk about embarrassing yourself, below are your post....*
↑

↑
Thank heavens the parents of that little girl are not as closed minded as you are.
↑
God doesn't make mistakes right

↑
These are the same people that would have balked at their child playing with African American children in the 50s, and gay children in the 90s. Let's hope that with our children's generation comes more enlightenment.

↑
Considering Trump still has an approval rating of about 35% you can't be shocked at ignorance anymore.

↑
It's like when they said allowing gay marriage would somehow damage the institution of marriage. The world isn't going to fall apart because your child may compete against a transgender child.

↑
But you are supposed to HATE her for being transgender. That is their point.


*All that tolerance coming from you is just obvious...
*


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> And here I thought I was done with this 'Normal' people? Keep it from kids? Thank you for going back & making point again... you're talking about families and people, many of whom are more 'normal' than some of the hetetosexual families out there...


I am sorry, but being gay is not normal. I didn't say it is bad. Your PCism is getting in the way of rational, unemotional thought.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am sorry, but being gay is not normal. I didn't say it is bad. Your PCism is getting in the way of rational, unemotional thought.


Could you difine normal?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

Do you mean normal = like you or most others? Wouldn't that imply that any minority group is not normal?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Could you difine normal?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality
> 
> Do you mean normal = like you or most others? Wouldn't that imply that any minority group is not normal?


I am not bashing gays, I like wez and husker, I bet they make a cute couple.

*normal*

*1*.
conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
"it's quite *normal for* puppies to bolt their food"
synonyms: usual, standard, ordinary, customary, conventional, habitual, accustomed, expected, wonted


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> And here I thought I was done with this 'Normal' people? Keep it from kids? Thank you for going back & making point again... you're talking about families and people, many of whom are more 'normal' than some of the hetetosexual families out there...


This is what I am talking about.
*Parents 'Betrayed, Blindsided' Over Kindergarten Trans Talk...*


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 22, 2017)

LilStriker said:


> 1) I see your attempt at dramatizing the opposing view to make it seem ridiculous, but in most cases you would really just need to check their birth certificate, most states will only allow birth certificate changes after reassignment surgery, rendering genital checks unnecessary. But again, to me it's not an issue about actual gender so long as she/he is playing at the right level, which leads to #2.
> 
> 2) exactly, I don't think most people care in this situation.  Seems like more people have an issue when there is more attention drawn to it and it becomes more about making a statement for transgender rights, etc... than about the game. to me it seems like it was rarely ever an issue in North Carolina until someone tried to force people to allow transgendered people into the other bathrooms (which to me is obvious, if you're dressed and look like a woman and not looking for trouble, just go in the women's bathroom, do your business and be done just like everyone else!) - if everyone just went about their business, it would've been fine with rare exception. Wasn't the whole point of it to draw less attention to transgendered? And yet somehow it became a national issue that's dividing the country - and all over a very small percentage of the population.
> 
> ...


Well said.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> This is what I am talking about.
> *Parents 'Betrayed, Blindsided' Over Kindergarten Trans Talk...*


So, while I personally dont have an issue w my kids being exposed to this at an early age, I do understand and respect those that do. My kids have been aware of the fact that people exist that are different from them in a variety of ways, including sexuality, and they're ok and accepting of that. But using a more exteme example of 'kindergarden' probably isn't a very fair test to apply to this discussion.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 22, 2017)

Too funny.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am not bashing gays, I like wez and husker, I bet they make a cute couple.
> 
> *normal*
> 
> ...


Now apply that to topic at hand, human sexuality...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201111/what-counts-normal?amp

Do you think you or others you know are 'normal'? Do you think they're just like everyone else?


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Now apply that to topic at hand, human sexuality...
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201111/what-counts-normal?amp
> 
> Do you think you or others you know are 'normal'? Do you think they're just like everyone else?




https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjj0Pq8_uvVAhVYzmMKHV3xDawQFghmMAE&url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal&usg=AFQjCNFhKNwChze9yfpeHLpxLbJKYPn-9Q

There's nothing wrong with not being in the norm.
Just accept it, and deal with it.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Now apply that to topic at hand, human sexuality...
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201111/what-counts-normal?amp
> 
> Do you think you or others you know are 'normal'? Do you think they're just like everyone else?


I clicked ignore on those guys many hours ago, but am enjoying your posts. I can only imagine the stupid arguments coming from the other side.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I clicked ignore on those guys many hours ago, but am enjoying your posts. I can only imagine the stupid arguments coming from the other side.


Good idea.
Some people do better in a padded room.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, while I personally dont have an issue w my kids being exposed to this at an early age, I do understand and respect those that do. My kids have been aware of the fact that people exist that are different from them in a variety of ways, including sexuality, and they're ok and accepting of that. But using a more exteme example of 'kindergarden' probably isn't a very fair test to apply to this discussion.


The article was from today.
I am not and never have kept my kids from being around, hanging out with anyone. Race or sexuality.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I clicked ignore on those guys many hours ago, but am enjoying your posts. I can only imagine the stupid arguments coming from the other side.


Snowflakes pretty proud of hitting that ignore button, I wonder what he does when his kids disagree with him?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Now apply that to topic at hand, human sexuality...
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201111/what-counts-normal?amp
> 
> Do you think you or others you know are 'normal'? Do you think they're just like everyone else?


I am more of a black and white kinda guy.
This is getting too deep for me. LOL


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I am more of a black and white kinda guy.
> This is getting too deep for me. LOL


There you go, bringing race into the discussion!!! J/k


----------



## coachrefparent (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I clicked ignore on those guys many hours ago, but am enjoying your posts. I can only imagine the stupid arguments coming from the other side.


Ignoring people on a forum is like a certain kind of bliss. If everyone on this board ignored the 5 or so recurrent trolls (we all know who they are) , they would be neutered and this forum would be a normal place to visit and talk soccer,including referees.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Ignoring people on a forum is like a certain kind of bliss. If everyone on this board ignored the 5 or so recurrent trolls (we all know who they are) , they would be neutered and this forum would be a normal place to visit and talk soccer,including referees.


Hard to disagree... unfortunately this also makes it hard to influence others or have a civil discussion w/ opposing pov's...


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> So, while I personally dont have an issue w my kids being exposed to this at an early age, I do understand and respect those that do. My kids have been aware of the fact that people exist that are different from them in a variety of ways, including sexuality, and they're ok and accepting of that. *But using a more exteme example of 'kindergarden' probably isn't a very fair test to apply to this discussion*.


You can't pick and choose what is and is not a good example.


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I clicked ignore on those guys many hours ago, but am enjoying your posts. I can only imagine the stupid arguments coming from the other side.


Typical liberal tactic. When you can't discuss things in a civil manner you go and hide in your "safe space". Love it!!


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Hard to disagree... unfortunately this also makes it hard to influence others or have a civil discussion w/ opposing pov's...


Some choose to bury their head , aka ignore/unfriend/delete when confronted with an opposing view. 

I wonder how people go through life like that. They must carry a lot of hate and anger towards people. Why live your life like that? Especially when they preach tolerance,  really makes them look hypocritical...


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Multi Sport said:


> Some choose to bury their head , aka ignore/unfriend/delete when confronted with an opposing view.
> 
> I wonder how people go through life like that. They must carry a lot of hate and anger towards people. Why live your life like that? Especially when they preach tolerance,  really makes them look hypocritical...


I don't think, for most part, ppl block/ignore/hide because they encounter an opposing POV. You have to agree that some on this thread have acted pretty hostile & made some rather personal insults (myself included) & few just stirred the pot w/ zero value add. For most part, that's not required in a debate... ppl visit forums for information exchange, not to be beaten down (unless you're into that kind of a thing, in which case this is a wrong forum )


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Ignoring people on a forum is like a certain kind of bliss. If everyone on this board ignored the 5 or so recurrent trolls (we all know who they are) , they would be neutered and this forum would be a normal place to visit and talk soccer,including referees.


The author asked for opinions, I am giving mine, do you think your opinion is better that the 5 trolls? Rather eliteist, wouldn't you say?


----------



## Multi Sport (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> I don't think, for most part, ppl block/ignore/hide because they encounter an opposing POV. You have to agree that some on this thread have acted pretty hostile & made some rather personal insults (myself included) & few just stirred the pot w/ zero value add. For most part, that's not required in a debate... ppl visit forums for information exchange, not to be beaten down (unless you're into that kind of a thing, in which case this is a wrong forum )


CF was posting plenty of the crap and now she decides to hide? I guess she couldn't stand the heat... I could post something really funny here but I'll resists the temptation.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> I don't think, for most part, ppl block/ignore/hide because they encounter an opposing POV. You have to agree that some on this thread have acted pretty hostile & made some rather personal insults (myself included) & few just stirred the pot w/ zero value add. For most part, that's not required in a debate... ppl visit forums for information exchange, not to be beaten down (unless you're into that kind of a thing, in which case this is a wrong forum )


I don't think I have purposely insulted anyone.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> The author asked for opinions, I am giving mine, do you think your opinion is better that the 5 trolls? Rather eliteist, wouldn't you say?


If you acknowledge they're trolls, then their opinions should be ignored... 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling&amp=true

Nice troll though...


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> If you acknowledge they're trolls, then their opinions should be ignored...
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling&amp=true
> 
> Nice troll though...


Have I been mean or insulted you? I think we have had a reasonable discussion.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I don't think I have purposely insulted anyone.


Why do you think you this was about you?


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 22, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Have I been mean or insulted you? I think we have had a reasonable discussion.


No & my skin is pretty thick  there were a few posts that got a little personal, didn't pay attention between who specifically... @push_up was flat out trolling, that's the only one I noticed & commented on directly...


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Why do you think you this was about you?


Just checking, don't want to ruin my rep.


----------



## push_up (Aug 22, 2017)

I only troll the freaks.  If I troll you, you know that you are.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 22, 2017)

push_up said:


> I only troll the freaks.  If I troll you, you know that you are.


He can't be talking  about you, 33 posts isn't enough to earn a troll title.


----------



## coachrefparent (Aug 22, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Hard to disagree... unfortunately this also makes it hard to influence others or have a civil discussion w/ opposing pov's...


No, you cannot have a civil discussion with a troll, nor influence their opinions. You're not backing down, or being a liberal, or a snowflake by not engaging them. Those are the fallacies that fuel their fires. 

They are trolls. They don't add anything of value. They don't discuss or debate logically. They attack and denigrate. You don't feed trolls. I was talking in general, but anyone who has been on here for awhile knows who they are, regardless of the subject. Believe me, blocking is bliss, and douses trolls.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> No, you cannot have a civil discussion with a troll, nor influence their opinions. You're not backing down, or being a liberal, or a snowflake by not engaging them. Those are the fallacies that fuel their fires.
> 
> They are trolls. They don't add anything of value. They don't discuss or debate logically. They attack and denigrate. You don't feed trolls. I was talking in general, but anyone who has been on here for awhile knows who they are, regardless of the subject. Believe me, blocking is bliss, and douses trolls.


CRP, this is just for you,
*Jim Reeves - Snowflake - YouTube*
▶ 2:15


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> CRP, this is just for you,
> *Jim Reeves - Snowflake - YouTube*
> View attachment 1316▶ 2:15


Is your username a tribute to Arpaio?


----------



## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> The article was from today.
> I am not and never have kept my kids from being around, hanging out with anyone. Race or sexuality.


But the question is, do you tell your kids that black, gay, trans, etc. is "not normal?" Is Caucasian straight the only "normal?"


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> But the question is, do you tell your kids that black, gay, trans, etc. is "not normal?" Is Caucasian straight the only "normal?"


I will let them figure that out for themselves.
I only tell them X5 1/2 is a dick.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Is your username a tribute to Arpaio?


Yes, the soon to be pardoned America Hero, Sheriff Joe.
Did you see my moniker picture?


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Yes, the soon to be pardoned America Hero, Sheriff Joe.
> Did you see my moniker picture?


I clearly missed it... i guess we're also likely to disagree on defintion of 'great american hero', but this does put a few things in perspective for me...


----------



## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I will let them figure that out for themselves.
> I only tell them X5 1/2 is a dick.


Nice work...on both counts.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> I clearly missed it... i guess we're also likely to disagree on defintion of 'great american hero', but this does put a few things in perspective for me...


Wasting taxpayer money trying to prove without evidence that our first black president was born in Kenya, denying prisoners food and health care and racially profiling makes him an American hero? To racists, I guess.


----------



## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Wasting taxpayer money trying to prove without evidence that our first black president was born in Kenya, denying prisoners food and health care and racially profiling makes him an American hero? To racists, I guess.


Everybody who's seen one stroke from Joe's keyboard calls him a racist and he says we are all crazy. Ask him his opinion if scientists...we are in good company.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> Everybody who's seen one stroke from Joe's keyboard calls him a racist and he says we are all crazy. Ask him his opinion if scientists...we are in good company.


They're "liberal elitists"?


----------



## Hdyldemapples (Aug 23, 2017)

In my opinion, fairness is the issue.  And yes I know we need to be sensitive to what a transgender adolescent is going through, but at whose expense?

 Being transgender causes a fairness issue when a boy is identifying as a girl.  There doesn't seem to be an issue when a girl wants to play as a boy or on a boys team because girls, even the best girls, aren't a threat to a high level male sport.  However, even the average boy who identifies as a girl is better than most girls in any sport.  That's where the unfair advantage occurs.  

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2017/06/04/transgender-athlete-beats-girls-but-wouldve-placed-last-against-boys-video/

For example, what if your daughter was a great sprinter, worked hard everyday to beat the top girls and then finds out she will be racing a boy who identifies as a girl?  How do you explain this to an adolescent girl who has given everything to be the fastest female possible to lose because someone is struggling with gender identity?  Now if it was the reverse and a girl who identifies as a boy was racing boys, well different results for sure.  Boys wouldn't be threatened, so it's easier to accept.  

Just plain and simple, boys are made stronger than girls.  Any average boy who identifies as a girl would beat most highly ranked females in any sport (track, tennis, golf, XC, swimming, soccer, wrestling, basketball, etc).  Yes, the percentage of it happening is low but if you are that one or two top female athlete being beat by a boy identifying as a female, that would be devastating.  How do you explain that to your adolescent daughter when she comes in second or third place to a girl with the muscles and build of someone who was born a boy?  I'm sure most parents would sympathize with the adolescent who is struggling with gender identity issues, but we also have to go home and explain and calm our own adolescents going thru their own stuff.  Life is hard for all of our kids finding their way thru life's challenges.

I am not against transgender adolescents playing sports, but we have to be sensitive to all adolescents and their hard work.

I'm not sure what the answer is to all of this, however, there are some things that need to be worked out in competitive sports especially female sports.  

Again, just my opinion.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> I clearly missed it... i guess we're also likely to disagree on defintion of 'great american hero', but this does put a few things in perspective for me...


You're Welcome.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Wasting taxpayer money trying to prove without evidence that our first black president was born in Kenya, denying prisoners food and health care and racially profiling makes him an American hero? To racists, I guess.


Who said he did all that? Obamas' justice department? The criminal Eric Holder? Now there is a racist for you.
Now protecting our border and Americans from illegal alien criminals is a crime?
Please. I am not sure if you know, but our jails are filled with illegals and we can't afford them. We can't even afford to take care of our own.
Send them all back AFSAFP.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

Hdyldemapples said:


> In my opinion, fairness is the issue.  And yes I know we need to be sensitive to what a transgender adolescent is going through, but at whose expense?
> 
> Being transgender causes a fairness issue when a boy is identifying as a girl.  There doesn't seem to be an issue when a girl wants to play as a boy or on a boys team because girls, even the best girls, aren't a threat to a high level male sport.  However, even the average boy who identifies as a girl is better than most girls in any sport.  That's where the unfair advantage occurs.
> 
> ...


Your priorities are way out of whack if you care that much about your daughter being the fastest 6th grade girl in her PE class. Let's deny transgender kids the chance to run a race because some parents can't stand if their children aren't first at something! 

In our however many years of soccer, as many teams as we have played or watched, I have never seen or heard of a transgender girl coming out and completely destroying a team. It is almost like you guys are creating a threat based on no evidence whatsoever instead of admitting your prejudices? 

For a group that throws out the term "snowflake" so much, you guys are really scared of your kids playing potentially stronger and better competition. Maybe you guys should toughen them up a little by throwing them in a coed league in off season.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> Everybody who's seen one stroke from Joe's keyboard calls him a racist and he says we are all crazy. Ask him his opinion if scientists...we are in good company.


There you go lying again, just can't help yourself.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Your priorities are way out of whack if you care that much about your daughter being the fastest 6th grade girl in her PE class. Let's deny transgender kids the chance to run a race because some parents can't stand if their children aren't first at something!
> 
> In our however many years of soccer, as many teams as we have played or watched, I have never seen or heard of a transgender girl coming out and completely destroying a team. It is almost like you guys are creating a threat based on no evidence whatsoever instead of admitting your prejudices?
> 
> For a group that throws out the term "snowflake" so much, you guys are really scared of your kids playing potentially stronger and better competition. Maybe you guys should toughen them up a little by throwing them in a coed league in off season.


Who the fuck are you to be telling anyone their priorities are out of whack?
You can't even hold a conversation without ignoring the person you disagree with.
What is wrong with wanting your kid to be the best?
You must be in charge of passing out the participation trophies.
Man up, butter cup.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> Everybody who's seen one stroke from Joe's keyboard calls him a racist and he says we are all crazy. Ask him his opinion if scientists...we are in good company.


Whose


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Whose


Technically, it's who's (who has seen), just saying


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 23, 2017)

So I read the complete article

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/04/transgender-athlete-beats-girls-but-wouldve-placed-last-against-boys-video/

Noted two things.  

"As of April, Yearwood had yet to have a sexual reassignment surgery or take hormone and puberty blockers.".   So physically still 100% boy.

"It feels really good,” said Yearwood to The Day. “I’m really happy to win both titles … I kind of expected it. I’ve always gotten first, so I expected it to some extent. … I’m really proud of it.”

So Yearwood destroys the competition, gets to be proud of the accomplishments, but our daughters need to learn to be fair to Yearwood even though physically still a boy.  This is 9th grade.  High School.   Pretty sure after the race all the girls that competed felt they lost to a boy, not a girl.  How is that helping everyone involved?  Seems to have the opposite effect.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Technically, it's who's (who has seen), just saying


Now you want to get technical? lol


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> So I read the complete article
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/04/transgender-athlete-beats-girls-but-wouldve-placed-last-against-boys-video/
> 
> ...


Daily Caller is fake news, along the lines of Breitbart or Infowars. If you'd like me to read this article, you will have to find another source.


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Daily Caller is fake news, along the lines of Breitbart or Infowars. If you'd like me to read this article, you will have to find another source.


Glad to know you didn't block me.


----------



## Hdyldemapples (Aug 23, 2017)

Chargerfan,

Here are my responses to your post:

"Your priorities are way out of whack if you care that much about your daughter being the fastest 6th grade girl in her PE class."

*Not what I said at all.  *

" Let's deny transgender kids the chance to run a race because some parents can't stand if their children aren't first at something!"

*Nope, didn't say that either.
*
"In our however many years of soccer, as many teams as we have played or watched, I have never seen or heard of a transgender girl coming out and completely destroying a team."

*Didn't say that either.*

" It is almost like you guys are creating a threat based on no evidence whatsoever instead of admitting your prejudices?"

*Nope, not true.  *

"For a group that throws out the term "snowflake" so much, you guys are really scared of your kids playing potentially stronger and better competition." 

*I never once said Snowflake.*

"Maybe you guys should toughen them up a little by throwing them in a coed league in off season."
*
Thanks for your wonderful input.*

*
*


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Glad to know you didn't block me.



http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html

Here is the story presented in a more  thoughtful, nuanced way than some conspiracy theory rag. The class displayed by all involved is to be applauded. How nice for this girl to be surrounded with so much support during her transition.


----------



## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

Hdyldemapples said:


> In my opinion, fairness is the issue.  And yes I know we need to be sensitive to what a transgender adolescent is going through, but at whose expense?
> 
> Being transgender causes a fairness issue when a boy is identifying as a girl.  There doesn't seem to be an issue when a girl wants to play as a boy or on a boys team because girls, even the best girls, aren't a threat to a high level male sport.  However, even the average boy who identifies as a girl is better than most girls in any sport.  That's where the unfair advantage occurs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I don't disagree with the potential challenges you're describing... The International Olympic Committee has set rules governing this very issue in 2004, which I think are pretty fair, here's a brief synopsis:

They must have had gender reassignment surgery.

They must have legal recognition of their assigned gender.

They must have at least two years of hormone therapy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html -- feel free to ignore the "opinion" piece of the article...

Now, if the *real* issue is the perception of unfair advantage gained as a result of biological advantages, those advantages are gained as a direct result of testosterone, which is what helps your body produce muscle. In a child that hasn't gone through puberty, the levels of testosterone are about the same in both boys & girls, which is probably largely you don't see much athletic differences between until they enter pre-puberty stage of their life. So, if that's the case (and there's science to prove that), this "unfair advantage" would not really exist until a certain age, right? Kids that are transitioning, are receiving Hormone Blockers (or Hormone Replacement Therapy in some cases?) to get them better aligned with hormone level appropriate for their target gender.  IOC recommends 2 years of hormone therapy to counteract any real affect of hormones on the athlete...

Again, for kids hormones have not produced any advantage from physicality POV yet, and surgical re-assignment is not appropriate until later in life...

I do not see this being an issue of personal opinions or feelings, though those do influence all of our thought process. I've defended my position, thus far, from a social perspective, where I do believe that exclusion in this case is unfair for a number of reason... but back to addressing the specific concern of unfairness, do you think the IOC rules are unfair? If so, why? If not, why do you feel they wouldn't apply to this discussion? Would proof of hormone therapy in said child be enough to address your concerns?


----------



## *GOBEARGO* (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Daily Caller is fake news, along the lines of Breitbart or Infowars. If you'd like me to read this article, you will have to find another source.



Haha what a tool. Perhaps those non-biased organizations-CNN, NY Times, MSNBC, Huff Post, NPR, Politico, would be more up your alley. 

Think you need to relocate your left wing dribble over to the 'off topic' section. They're a couple over there that would embrace you with open arms.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

Hdyldemapples said:


> Chargerfan,
> 
> Here are my responses to your post:
> 
> ...


You're welcome. Playing against boys will make her much stronger and faster, so you won't need to be so concerned about the size of her competition.


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I don't disagree with the potential challenges you're describing... The International Olympic Committee has set rules governing this very issue in 2004, which I think are pretty fair, here's a brief synopsis:
> 
> They must have had gender reassignment surgery.
> 
> ...


Don't many women contain much higher levels of testosterone than others?


----------



## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

*GOBEARGO* said:


> Haha what a tool. Perhaps those non-biased organizations-CNN, NY Times, MSNBC, Huff Post, NPR, Politico, would be more up your alley.
> 
> Think you need to relocate your left wing dribble over to the 'off topic' section. They're a couple over there that would embrace you with open arms.



No thanks. If you think the level of bigotry displayed here is jaw dropping, wait until you see what is said over there!


----------



## socalkdg (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html
> 
> Here is the story presented in a more  thoughtful, nuanced way than some conspiracy theory rag. The class displayed by all involved is to be applauded. How nice for this girl to be surrounded with so much support during her transition.


Good article, but it also shows how this cuts both ways.

"Was it fair?
On a biologically competitive basis, it was not.
Should Yearwood be allowed to participate with the girls? Yes. Participation is paramount in high school sports. Participation with dignity is the aspiration. But the question of what constitutes fairness in the world of sports remains to be settled. "


Take a look at this article and the first picture
http://www.courant.com/sports/high-schools/hc-hs-cromwell-track-andraya-yearwood-0407-20170406-story.html

Biological difference.

Like life itself, there are no easy answers, and I can understand both sides of the discussion.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Don't many women contain much higher levels of testosterone than others?


I'm guessing there's a normal statistical distribution of any hormone for any creature at varying age. I'm sure women, much like men have varying degrees of testosterone. But yes, I'm sure there are women that are were born w/ female reproductive organs and that identify as women that have higher levels of this hormone than some members of the male population... Genetics and nature are likely to be reasons for this imbalance, I guess we should consider leagues based on one's T-count?


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Good article, but it also shows how this cuts both ways.
> 
> "Was it fair?
> On a biologically competitive basis, it was not.
> ...


Which is why I used the word "nuanced".


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## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Whose


Guess again, Joey. "Who's" as in "who has." But I assume your "literature" (Breitbart, RedState, etc.) would misspell it and call that "correct" as well.


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

This is getting crazy. 
As far as teaching your children acceptance of such a situation, that is 100% up to the parents of the children having to see this unnatural event and how they want to handle it. Yes I said "unnatural" as in different and not normal! NEWS FLASH to all the people arguing that this should be accepted as in any way normal,  IT IS NOT IN ANYWAY NORMAL!  As a matter of fact it is against Mother Nature, so when you want to try and convince/teach your child that this is OK well they all know deep down something isn't right, it is weird and odd. This crazy deal is not in the natural order of life! 
I am not saying people shouldn't accept this if they choose to, and in NO WAY in hell am i saying anyone has the right to abuse a child over this. But lets just be honest this shit is off the wall! 
Lets clear something up with pure facts. Take two gay men or two gay women or a transgender couple and put them on an Island for 100 years and see how Mother Nature handles them? Go back and visit the next generation. Oh wait there is not a next generation because Mother Nature did not allow it. Ya Ya I know that is harsh but it is not arguable that it is all UNNATURAL in the order of life.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Don't many women contain much higher levels of testosterone than others?


Yes, they are called Russian and German.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Which is why I used the word "nuanced".


Libs love that word, very vague.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> This is getting crazy.
> As far as teaching your children acceptance of such a situation, that is 100% up to the parents of the children having to see this unnatural event and how they want to handle it. Yes I said "unnatural" as in different and not normal! NEWS FLASH to all the people arguing that this should be accepted as in any way normal,  IT IS NOT IN ANYWAY NORMAL!  As a matter of fact it is against Mother Nature, so when you want to try and convince/teach your child that this is OK well they all know deep down something isn't right, it is weird and odd. This crazy deal is not in the natural order of life!
> I am not saying people shouldn't accept this if they choose to, and in NO WAY in hell am i saying anyone has the right to abuse a child over this. But lets just be honest this shit is off the wall!
> Lets clear something up with pure facts. Take two gay men or two gay women or a transgender couple and put them on an Island for 100 years and see how Mother Nature handles them? Go back and visit the next generation. Oh wait there is not a next generation because Mother Nature did not allow it. Ya Ya I know that is harsh but it is not arguable that it is all UNNATURAL in the order of life.


any chance you're mixing up "unnatural" and "ungodly"? two very different things and come from two very different places...


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> Guess again, Joey. "Who's" as in "who has." But I assume your "literature" (Breitbart, RedState, etc.) would misspell it and call that "correct" as well.


Yes, I need to stick with what I know.
Donald Trump is the president and he beat the hell out of Hillary.


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> This is getting crazy.
> As far as teaching your children acceptance of such a situation, that is 100% up to the parents of the children having to see this unnatural event and how they want to handle it. Yes I said "unnatural" as in different and not normal! NEWS FLASH to all the people arguing that this should be accepted as in any way normal,  IT IS NOT IN ANYWAY NORMAL!  As a matter of fact it is against Mother Nature, so when you want to try and convince/teach your child that this is OK well they all know deep down something isn't right, it is weird and odd. This crazy deal is not in the natural order of life!
> I am not saying people shouldn't accept this if they choose to, and in NO WAY in hell am i saying anyone has the right to abuse a child over this. But lets just be honest this shit is off the wall!
> Lets clear something up with pure facts. Take two gay men or two gay women or a transgender couple and put them on an Island for 100 years and see how Mother Nature handles them? Go back and visit the next generation. Oh wait there is not a next generation because Mother Nature did not allow it. Ya Ya I know that is harsh but it is not arguable that it is all UNNATURAL in the order of life.


I'm so happy that I clicked on show ignored to read this, because I needed the laugh. 

Where does one find the gospel of Mother Nature? Is this a religious thing? Do you pray to her at night for guidance?


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I'm so happy that I clicked on show ignored to read this, because I needed the laugh.
> 
> Where does one find the gospel of Mother Nature? Is this a religious thing? Do you pray to her at night for guidance?


Also, do you think the continuation of our species at some point will come down to gay and/or transgender people stuck on a deserted island? Is this part of the gospel of Mother Nature?


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## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> I'm so happy that I clicked on show ignored to read this, because I needed the laugh.
> 
> Where does one find the gospel of Mother Nature? Is this a religious thing? Do you pray to her at night for guidance?


Sandshark should stick to giving those great blow jobs and quit trying to tell us what's "normal."


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## xav10 (Aug 23, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Yes, I need to stick with what I know.
> Donald Trump is the president and he beat the hell out of Hillary.


Yeah, stick with what you know; not the "3 r's." Learning clearly isn't your strong suit.


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## Grace T. (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> This is getting crazy.
> IT IS NOT IN ANYWAY NORMAL!  As a matter of fact it is against Mother Nature, .


O.k.  I've largely stayed out of this S-show.  I can honestly see both sides of the equation and don't think there are any easy answer-- on the one hand I see the value of diversity and inclusiveness especially when we are talking about something as mundane as a kids game, and on the other hand I can see the arguments about fairness and level playing field.  But here's where I get off.  The evidence is that for trans people that something biologically has happened....the science shows their brains are actually different....mother nature, in other words, did it to them....it's not a choice....anyone who thinks someone would chose to do that to themselves is kidding themselves because even a transition to the opposite gender is an imperfect solution for a very high cost.  But that's what mother nature does....that what evolution is about....it varies people because it doesn't know what traits are more than likely to lead to the survival of the species....so people are different and why no one is "normal".  I can start a list: the disabled, the alcoholic, the fat, the overly skinny, anyone with depression or anxiety issues, anyone who is too smart or too stupid, the LGBTQ, anyone who is overly athletic, anyone who is not athletic at all, anyone with an illness like heart disease asthma or diabeties, anyone with a learning disability, anyone who is poor, anyone who is rich and didn't inherit their money, and anyone with an overactive imagination or creativity.  So I can accept that transgenderism itself is not "normal" if by that for anyone, any characteristic that deviates them from the standard median is not normal either (in other words, all those great DA soccer players are not "normal").  But guess what, Mother Nature is a b and everyone has something.


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## Hdyldemapples (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I don't disagree with the potential challenges you're describing... The International Olympic Committee has set rules governing this very issue in 2004, which I think are pretty fair, here's a brief synopsis:
> 
> They must have had gender reassignment surgery.
> 
> ...


That's a lot to address.  I have to get my thoughts together first.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

xav10 said:


> Yeah, stick with what you know; not the "3 r's." Learning clearly isn't your strong suit.


A man's got to know his limitations.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

what's the goal here? I though it was to have a civil adult-like debate over a pretty sensitive topic... Instead of acting like adults w/ differing opinions this thread has resorted to debating tactics one is likely to see on a playground. If you have a different POV debate it, provide evidence that supports your position, and yes, please check that the evidence provided supports some notion of credibility. Opinion articles are not fact, they're opinion. Debating opinions as useful as [insert your favorite euphemism here]... It's easy to hit reply and blast someone else... If you don't have an immediate response, take an example from @Hdyldemapples -- take a moment, absorb the information provided, then offer a counter argument. 

Grow up!


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

TheIronCurtain said:


> what's the goal here? I though it was to have a civil adult-like debate over a pretty sensitive topic... Instead of acting like adults w/ differing opinions this thread has resorted to debating tactics one is likely to see on a playground. If you have a different POV debate it, provide evidence that supports your position, and yes, please check that the evidence provided supports some notion of credibility. Opinion articles are not fact, they're opinion. Debating opinions as useful as [insert your favorite euphemism here]... It's easy to hit reply and blast someone else... If you don't have an immediate response, take an example from @Hdyldemapples -- take a moment, absorb the information provided, then offer a counter argument.
> 
> Grow up!



Ohhh GREAT someone pissed off the Soviete Union representative, now her Iron Curtains are in an up roar! 
Honestly who in their right mind would name themselves after some POS country with the name of something like the Cold War or WW2 are you serious? You find those two events entertaining or funny enough to use that as your user name? 
Go back the the 1940's you Commie Bastard!


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Ohhh GREAT someone pissed off the Soviete Union representative, now her Iron Curtains are in an up roar!
> Honestly who in their right mind would name themselves after some POS country with the name of something like the Cold War or WW2 are you serious? You find those two events entertaining or funny enough to use that as your user name?
> Go back the the 1940's you Commie Bastard!


Russia was an Ally in WWII. Over 20 million Russians killed by Nazis.


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Russia was an Ally in WWII. Over 20 million Russians killed by Nazis.


Are you on the side of the Nazis?


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Ohhh GREAT someone pissed off the Soviete Union representative, now her Iron Curtains are in an up roar!
> Honestly who in their right mind would name themselves after some POS country with the name of something like the Cold War or WW2 are you serious? You find those two events entertaining or funny enough to use that as your user name?
> Go back the the 1940's you Commie Bastard!


Why do you assume I'm a "she"?
And thank you proving my point, now stop stumping your feet, get up off the ground, dust your self off and go play nice w/ the other children! There's room for you in the sandbox, if you play nice...


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## coachrefparent (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Russia was an Ally in WWII. Over 20 million Russians killed by Nazis.


Shush with those facts.


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

They were only an Ally in that they wanted Hitler dead, but they did not trust us or even like us and the feelings were mutual. We as countries have never liked or trusted one another at any time in history!
And the question still stands..why are you the "Iron Curtain"


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## Frank (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> They were only an Ally in that they wanted Hitler dead, but they did not trust us or even like us and the feelings were mutual. We as countries have never liked or trusted one another at any time in history!


What about when Rocky fought Drago. At the end we all loved each other. Life lesson.


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## chargerfan (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> They were only an Ally in that they wanted Hitler dead, but they did not trust us or even like us and the feelings were mutual. We as countries have never liked or trusted one another at any time in history!
> And the question still stands..why are you the "Iron Curtain"


Trump seems to like and trust the Russians!


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> They were only an Ally in that they wanted Hitler dead, but they did not trust us or even like us and the feelings were mutual. We as countries have never liked or trusted one another at any time in history!
> And the question still stands..why are you the "Iron Curtain"


Is this for real? I'll provide the answer to your "must know" question, if you can provide a rational reason why it matters?

BTW, if you're going to make claims like "at any time in history" you should consider doing some homework -- 100 years does not make ever in history... https://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/rs/200years/

Also, not really sure why I'm even bothering at this point...


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## Woobie06 (Aug 23, 2017)

Lots of interesting commentary....I think everybody is done....can a mod call a tie and shut this down.  Everyone wins....everyone loses....very interesting perspectives all the way around.


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

I think the Iron Curtain is Vladimir Putin and he is spying on the most in the "know" part of American society <SOCCER PARENTS> they run the USA, they know it all> they are all CRAZY AMERICANS! 
Notice Iron Curtains  is refusing to answer the question on why she finds the name Iron Curtain to be funny? Go away you dam Commie Spy!


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 23, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Shush with those facts.


Do you know how many Russians Stalin killed?
I know some people personally who lived behind the actual "Iron Curtain".
The USSR was no Shangri la.


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

Shark / out. This subject is more played out then driving to Norco every single weekend! BYE


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

chargerfan said:


> Trump seems to like and trust the Russians!


Didn't you get the new talking points memo? KKK, white supremacists and Nazis are what you are supposed to lie about for the last 10 days.


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## TheIronCurtain (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> I think the Iron Curtain is Vladimir Putin and he is spying on the most in the "know" part of American society <SOCCER PARENTS> they run the USA, they know it all> they are all CRAZY AMERICANS!
> Notice Iron Curtains  is refusing to answer the question on why she finds the name Iron Curtain to be funny? Go away you dam Commie Spy!


"She" is a "he", and has never been a "she"... I find it amazing how all of a sudden my user name is the topic of the conversation. I'm not answering cause I don't think you deserve to be answered. Keep on trolling...


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Shark / out. This subject is more played out then driving to Norco every single weekend! BYE


My daughter just told me Sunday how much she likes Silver lakes. I was a little surprised, but it's all about her.


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 23, 2017)

sandshark said:


> Shark / out. This subject is more played out then driving to Norco every single weekend! BYE


I agree but I can never resist a chance to bash pinkos.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 23, 2017)

Woobie06 said:


> Lots of interesting commentary....I think everybody is done....can a mod call a tie and shut this down.  Everyone wins....everyone loses....very interesting perspectives all the way around.


Yep, the original post was asking for opinions, some people get crazy thinking they know best for everyone, I think it's called the nanny state syndrome.


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## sandshark (Aug 23, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> I agree but I can never resist a chance to bash pinkos.


Liberals


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 24, 2017)

Olympics Will Allow Transgender Competitors for 2018 Winter Games


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## Ricky Fandango (Aug 24, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Olympics Will Allow Transgender Competitors for 2018 Winter Games


Not smart.


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## Sheriff Joe (Aug 24, 2017)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Not smart.


Definitely won't end well.


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