# Is club soccer a waste of time/money for youngers (under 10 yo)?



## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 17, 2022)

I will caveat this by saying my kid loves playing on his club team. He plays on a good competitive team as a pivotal member and has fun with his teammates.

Having said that, I've been thinking lately if club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?

Couldn't they just play rec and since most of the kids in club on competitive teams will be the best on their rec teams, they'll get all the touches and game time they can ask for in rec and then they can supplement that by playing futsal or something on the side? 

I just feel like all the "tactical" stuff they try to work on with kids (build up, pinning kids into specific positions, etc) is a bit useless at 6-10 years old. Shouldn't they just focus on developing comfort with the ball and mastering their first touch? 

Are clubs taking advantage of parents who think if my kid's not in a big club or top flight now, they'll fall behind?


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## tjinaz (Apr 17, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I will caveat this by saying my kid loves playing on his club team. He plays on a good competitive team as a pivotal member and has fun with his teammates.
> 
> Having said that, I've been thinking lately if club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?
> 
> ...


Ill bite.  sure.. tactics... its not that important at that age what do they remember anyway...  what is important is to have a good coach that teaches the fundamental mechanics of how to shoot, pass and trap.  the very basics of how to play soccer.  Honestly once they get older and move on to club these skills are expected and are not really covered.  I would look for a coach that is not really interested in winning but making practice and games fun for the kids and teaches them to shoot with their laces, pass with their instep and trap by cushioning the ball.  Those are the skills you need to learn at U10.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 18, 2022)

If your kid wants to play high school soccer you will need to keep him in club.  The problem with keeping him at Rec level  is that he can develop bad habits and also will not get challenged.    At the younger age you could also put him in futsal so he can build  his skills and soccer iq.  
The biggest challenge regarding club soccer is the year long commitment.   Kids need to play multiple sports at a young age but most competitive club teams have a year long season.

ultimately make your decision considering if your kid is having fun, making friends, learning, and being challenged,


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## watfly (Apr 18, 2022)

If I had to do it all over again, I would have my son play futsal until 10 with some technical skills training on the side.  The game of futsal is a far better trainer/developer than any club coach.  You get a ton of touches in futsal and you have to make quick decisions.  Because quick decision making is required kids also develop their "soccer vision", or scanning.  Soccer is ultimately a decision making sport above all else.  Even a less skilled player with good decision making is better than a super skilled kid with poor decision making.

Tactics are virtually pointless at 10 (or 12 for that matter), mostly because each coach employs different tactics.


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## Carlsbad7 (Apr 18, 2022)

watfly said:


> If I had to do it all over again, I would have my son play futsal until 10 with some technical skills training on the side.  The game of futsal is a far better trainer/developer than any club coach.  You get a ton of touches in futsal and you have to make quick decisions.  Because quick decision making is required kids also develop their "soccer vision", or scanning.  Soccer is ultimately a decision making sport above all else.  Even a less skilled player with good decision making is better than a super skilled kid with poor decision making.
> 
> Tactics are virtually pointless at 10 (or 12 for that matter), mostly because each coach employs different tactics.


Agree x1000 also it doesn't need to specifically be Futsal. Any kind of small sided game field or court that focuses on skills is ideal.

Increasing the number of touches will = better players faster. Combine that with smaller court which will = faster decisions.

The only downside of Futsal is the aggression side of field is taken out. This is primarily the difference between court and field + why some Futsal players have a hard time transitioning to field.

Personally I'd rather watch a futsal game over a field game any day. With Futsal you show up 20 minutes before, halves are 24 minutes. all players touch the ball, and the action happens so fast + there's no offsides so spectators never get a chance to yell at the ref.


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## dad4 (Apr 18, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I will caveat this by saying my kid loves playing on his club team. He plays on a good competitive team as a pivotal member and has fun with his teammates.
> 
> Having said that, I've been thinking lately if club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?
> 
> ...


For most kids, rec is just fine for younger ages.  Score 5 goals this season, have a blast.

Now, if a kid is scoring five goals a game, then it’s time to try a more competitive league.  He’ll learn more being on a field with kids like him.  

It’s also kinder to the kids who play at a rec level.  The rec games are for the rec kids; they need to touch the ball, too.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 18, 2022)

watfly said:


> If I had to do it all over again, I would have my son play futsal until 10 with some technical skills training on the side.  The game of futsal is a far better trainer/developer than any club coach.  You get a ton of touches in futsal and you have to make quick decisions.  Because quick decision making is required kids also develop their "soccer vision", or scanning.  Soccer is ultimately a decision making sport above all else.  Even a less skilled player with good decision making is better than a super skilled kid with poor decision making.
> 
> Tactics are virtually pointless at 10 (or 12 for that matter), mostly because each coach employs different tactics.


Yea in futsal training, I'm seeing that the touches on the ball are like 10x more than a typical club practice. 
At club practice, they're trying to connect some passes and all that but it's a lot of instruction and just takes one kid to blindly kick it for the buildup to break down and start again... not a lot of touches and decisions...

Club team seems to provide the access to tournaments and league games (vs other competitive kids) but on a pure individual development sense, I don't see it at the younger ages. What I see is kids developing that elsewhere (already talented on the ball, futsal, or individual training) and getting on the club team via tryouts. And as much as clubs keep telling parents "we are here to develop your kids and we aren't worried about wins and losses", they sure blast every big win on social media...

Wenger (former Arsenal manager, now of FIFA head of Global Dev) has said that:
7-14 year olds should focus on technical development
14-17 year olds should focus on physical development / tactical awareness
17-19 year olds should focus on mental toughness / motivation

He is obviously trying to build pro players but even if the goal is just college or high school soccer, the concept of primarily focusing on technical ability at the younger ages seems to ring true.


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## crush (Apr 18, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Wenger (former Arsenal manager, now of FIFA head of Global Dev) has said that:
> 7-14 year olds should focus on technical development
> 14-17 year olds should focus on physical development / tactical awareness
> 17-19 year olds should focus on mental toughness / motivation
> He is obviously* trying to build pro players* but even if the goal is just college or high school soccer, the concept of primarily focusing on technical ability at the younger ages seems to ring true.


USA Last 11 years.  Were trying to build college players
7-14- Winning, Rankings, Tournaments and Championships ((medals)).
14-17- Showcases, HSS or no HSS, look for good college, focus on excellence in and out of classroom and SAT practice.  
17-19- Take SAT, Showcase some more, pick school and go ball in college


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## NorCalDad (Apr 18, 2022)

In our area there's a massive gap between rec and club soccer.  Growing up in SoCal in the 80s this wasn't the case.  AYSO was fine for most kids.  Back then clubs were not as pervasive.  I coached my kids rec teams and even though I played through high school, club, and had college offers, I just wasn't a very good coach.  That's when I knew my kids probably needed something different.  Most of rec is parent led and most parents have no idea what they're doing.    

At the same time, there are things that come with club soccer that have nothing to do with the sport. Our kids have developed a lot of friendships outside of their school bubble. Going to tournaments is super fun for the kids. We also get to spend a lot of one-on-one time with them with all the driving to practices/games/tournaments. It's kind of a forcing function. Club soccer during covid was a godsend. I am so grateful they had that as an outlet. 

I do agree with @watfly that futsal is super rewarding for the kids -- as is pickup in general. Even local soccer camps are great. These are the things that help build a young player's confidence. Confidence is vital for their long term interest in the sport (or anything for that matter). 

I think the thing to watch out for is getting into it too deep at the early ages. Some parents are pretty insane and think their kids are going to go pro at the age of 5. There's a lot of ego wrapped up in all of this. Nobody has any idea where kids will land after puberty. The most important thing to remember is that it has to be fun for the kids. The minute it isn't....is the minute you need to pump the brakes and do something different. For example, if you're doing a lot of joysticking/armchair-coaching during your kid's games, you're probably on the wrong track. If your goal is for your 6-10 year old to play college/pro soccer then you're probably doing something wrong. If your goal is for your kid to have an extra-curricular activity that they can carry into high school, then remember it's a marathon not a sprint. Over time you will be able to gauge their interest and if they want more (side training, etc). 

At the end of the day you need to give your kid a say in this.  They need to feel invested in the direction, otherwise it's just their parents forcing them into something they don't really care about.


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## Speed (Apr 18, 2022)

DD played AYSO extra and moved to club U14. coach brought on one kid  to the team 'the AYSO kid". Starter by mid season. Biggest adjustment was physicality but the coach addressed that by taking the team to Santa Ana and played up in a boys league. It was a crash course and highly effective. AYSO coach did alot of short sided games, some futsal and brought in outside trainers. We are at the tail end of soccer and having been through it all my hubby and I shake our heads and think there have been some good and fun teams but the foundation for our kid was there with AYSO. Great coach and families. Late start to club meant she didn't burn out. Even with COVID had several college offers last few months but is going to play club and focus on academics. I like that we were able to get out with the joy of the sport still there. All of her friends she met through club quit by senior year and she continued to play club and HS making for a fun <and crazy> senior year!!


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## NorCalDad (Apr 18, 2022)

Oh one more note.  If you're at a club where coaches are locking 6-10 year olds into positions you need to either speak up or leave.  That's friggin ridiculous, yet I see it all the time.  I've had to talk to coaches about this.  You can do this without being an asshole.  Just email them and ask them if they have a moment to chat.  Ask them for their thoughts on positioning and where they see your child playing.  Explain to them your concerns about your child being locked into a role.  Good coaches will already be out in front of all of this.


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## espola (Apr 18, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> Yea in futsal training, I'm seeing that the touches on the ball are like 10x more than a typical club practice.
> At club practice, they're trying to connect some passes and all that but it's a lot of instruction and just takes one kid to blindly kick it for the buildup to break down and start again... not a lot of touches and decisions...
> 
> Club team seems to provide the access to tournaments and league games (vs other competitive kids) but on a pure individual development sense, I don't see it at the younger ages. What I see is kids developing that elsewhere (already talented on the ball, futsal, or individual training) and getting on the club team via tryouts. And as much as clubs keep telling parents "we are here to develop your kids and we aren't worried about wins and losses", they sure blast every big win on social media...
> ...


Never did futsal, but all my kids started with peewee soccer in a small indoor arena.  Lots of touches because the walls keep the ball in play.

And then there was the little field my sons set up between the family room dining table and the laundry room door -- hour after hour.


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## watfly (Apr 18, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Oh one more note.  If you're at a club where coaches are locking 6-10 year olds into positions you need to either speak up or leave.  That's friggin ridiculous, yet I see it all the time.  I've had to talk to coaches about this.  You can do this without being an asshole.  Just email them and ask them if they have a moment to chat.  Ask them for their thoughts on positioning and where they see your child playing.  Explain to them your concerns about your child being locked into a role.  Good coaches will already be out in front of all of this.


I'll add to your note, also avoid coaches at the youngers that have lines, laps or lectures as a part of practice.  It's all about touches.


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## espola (Apr 18, 2022)

watfly said:


> I'll add to your note, also avoid coaches at the youngers that have lines, laps or lectures as a part of practice.  It's all about touches.


Lectures should take place during team meetings or water breaks.  I prefer to see a coach that wanders around the practice field while the team is doing some drills and giving individuals or small groups instructions like "Here's how you could do that better".

Unavoidable coaching lectures will occur when showing and practicing set plays like kickoffs and corners.


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## Eagle33 (Apr 18, 2022)

The whole European soccer is based on developing player within a team, not the other way like many coaches are trying here. Individual player development MUST come first.


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## whatithink (Apr 18, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> The whole European soccer is based on developing player within a team, not the other way like many coaches are trying here. Individual player development MUST come first.


That's (Europe) not pay to play though. That said, generally I have seen (in most teams) that coaches have their favorites that they are developing and those players can do what they want and the rest of the team is just a supporting cast, despite the fact that the rest of the team is literally playing the coaches wages.

You are right, that developing your player is what you should focus on, but don't expect that in club soccer.

For me

Up to U11, technique, make sure your kid watches soccer & plays FIFA
From U11-U13, same as above and, field play & have your kid do track training (40M through 400M) and start with body weight exercises & core/stretching
and hope they are an early developer ...

From U14-U16, same as above, add weights and study/implement tactical side
U17 onwards, watch the planets align due to your awesome plan ... perfection


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## Grace T. (Apr 18, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> In our area there's a massive gap between rec and club soccer.  Growing up in SoCal in the 80s this wasn't the case.  AYSO was fine for most kids.  Back then clubs were not as pervasive.  I coached my kids rec teams and even though I played through high school, club, and had college offers, I just wasn't a very good coach.  That's when I knew my kids probably needed something different.  Most of rec is parent led and most parents have no idea what they're doing.
> 
> At the same time, there are things that come with club soccer that have nothing to do with the sport. Our kids have developed a lot of friendships outside of their school bubble. Going to tournaments is super fun for the kids. We also get to spend a lot of one-on-one time with them with all the driving to practices/games/tournaments. It's kind of a forcing function. Club soccer during covid was a godsend. I am so grateful they had that as an outlet.
> 
> ...


+1 for everything NorCal dad said including getting in too deep too soon

The history of this is that rec was pretty much the only game in town in the 70s 80s and early 90s. Club teams existed but were generally locally based, started at older ages and not as pervasive.  But rec soccer undid itself

First was the issue of relying on parent volunteers. Some of the coaching in even the fundamentals of soccer isn’t very good and because you are relying on volunteers in a semi randomized system you may not get a very good coach. The ayso coaching material is great but you only get what you put into it. We had a game when the kids were very young for example where the coach on the kickoff lined the kids up on the line of scrimmage in a football three point stance (it worked to score but the kids learned nothing about soccer with that “play”). 

The second issue was the everyone plays together from the future pro to the handicapped kid that ayso pushed.  It frustrated the really good player (who was either scoring by outrunning the other players or not developing because the other players couldn’t connect the ball with them). It also frustrated the handicapped player because kids are smart and no one would pass the ball to them for fear of losing it. Unlike the us European Rec (which is what most people play) is tiered.  Ayso has remedied some of this by introducing vip, all stars, extras and United but United is club ball, there’s quite a bit of politics in all stars and extras and there is still quite a bit of discrepancy in the core program among players

The last issue is referees are also volunteers. When I was a cr for ayso I had ars which couldn’t call the offside rule properly to save their lives and not complicated stuff like a rebound or face beyond the line but basic stuff like no offside on throwins

Bottom line is Rec is like a box of chocolates. You don’t try out and so don’t have any control over what you get (yeah I know there is some politicking and exceptions). You might have a great experience or your kid may have difficulty even learning the fundamentals. And what caused my kid to move on was when he asked all his core teammates to train with him to practice for extras but they had moved onto other sports or Disneyland aps after the soccer season but he wanted to keep playing.


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## Grace T. (Apr 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> +1 for everything NorCal dad said including getting in too deep too soon
> 
> The history of this is that rec was pretty much the only game in town in the 70s 80s and early 90s. Club teams existed but were generally locally based, started at older ages and not as pervasive.  But rec soccer undid itself
> 
> ...


Ps the way out of the box of chocolates problem is to coach them yourself but a. That assumes you know what you are doing re the fundamentals or know the basics of the game and are willing to put in the time and research to find out (which requires more than a quick perusal of the ayso manual), b. Have the time to do it (not everyone’s jobs allow for it), c. Leads to the problems some people develop as daddy coaches with their kid, and d. Doesn’t get you away from what you may get with the other players or the refs so you have to be chill or you and your kid will wind up having a bad experience (as one infamous poster on these boards who put their kid in both rec and club to give the kid more touches and leadership skills discovered)


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## timbuck (Apr 18, 2022)

There is a sweet spot for club soccer between 10 and 14 that is pretty important. (Late elementary school to freshman year of hs).
If your kid is a "pitch rat" and wants to be around soccer 24/7-  then pour in whatever you can for them.
If at any point during that 4 year period, they don't want to put in extra training (and THEY have to want it.  It can't be something you force them to do), then you need to check your priorities.
Club soccer has been great for our family-  but none of my kids are playing in college.  Once you hit 10th grade-  There becomes a lot of separation in the kids that want/need to play in college and those that were decent players, but have lots of competing interests.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 18, 2022)

Some great responses and advice, in particular the stuff regarding futsal/indoor (it is absolutely vital for any player IMO). You can spot the futsal players or exceptional decision makers in about 2 minutes watching almost any game.

One thing nobody mentioned is early engagement with a ball, something championed by renowned American coach Tom Byer (he is far more popular in Asia than here in the US but he's got more traction here in recent years). If you miss out on that engagement then you miss out on a crucial part of development that cannot be replicated or replaced. Does that mean everyone absolutely has to engage with a ball as a toddler? no. Are those players who do engage with a ball at a very young age usually more proficient in terms of their technical skills and ball handling? invariably, yes. 

There's been quite a bit of anecdotal research and interviews with top level players and almost all of them had this early engagement period; that doesn't mean they joined a club team at 4 yrs old, it just means they were familiar with and comfortable with a ball at their feet at a very young age. I believe language learning is similar in terms of early engagement.

Early engagement with a ball.
Futsal/indoor soccer.
Pickup with older/younger kids.

Some structured coaching/tactical training as you get older is important but the above 3 things are more beneficial than anything else in terms of individual player development.


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## Larzby (Apr 19, 2022)

espola said:


> Never did futsal, but all my kids started with peewee soccer in a small indoor arena.  Lots of touches because the walls keep the ball in play.
> 
> And then there was the little field my sons set up between the family room dining table and the laundry room door -- hour after hour.


Ha! That reminded me of "hoverball" which we got for our daughter around age 7 or 8 and played it on the hardwood floors in our home. She went from one of the timid kids to one of the most physical on the field after about a month of hoverball with her sibs and me.  Not much room in our place, so physicality was the only option.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 19, 2022)

We always had a few soccer balls inside the house.  My little girl at 6 years old would kick the ball up the stairs and trap it.   She kicked it agains the walls of the house and dribble it around the house.   This only works for a few years because once they get stronger they will break stuff. lol


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## espola (Apr 19, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> We always had a few soccer balls inside the house.  My little girl at 6 years old would kick the ball up the stairs and trap it.   She kicked it agains the walls of the house and dribble it around the house.   This only works for a few years because once they get stronger they will break stuff. lol


My boys cracked the wallboard in several places around their laundry room door "goal".  I resolved to repair it once they moved out, which I eventually did.


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 19, 2022)

My boy is lucky that he goes to a school where kids play soccer. He plays soccer every recess.  He comes home telling me today he megged so and so, how many times he scored with his off foot and little games he and his school mates made up. His love for soccer is genuine. Every dribbling moves he has he learned it on his own.


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## watfly (Apr 19, 2022)

Paul Spacey said:


> Some great responses and advice, in particular the stuff regarding futsal/indoor (it is absolutely vital for any player IMO). You can spot the futsal players or exceptional decision makers in about 2 minutes watching almost any game.
> 
> One thing nobody mentioned is early engagement with a ball, something championed by renowned American coach Tom Byer (he is far more popular in Asia than here in the US but he's got more traction here in recent years). If you miss out on that engagement then you miss out on a crucial part of development that cannot be replicated or replaced. Does that mean everyone absolutely has to engage with a ball as a toddler? no. Are those players who do engage with a ball at a very young age usually more proficient in terms of their technical skills and ball handling? invariably, yes.
> 
> ...


100% agree, but tell that to US Soccer that briefly hired Byer for a pilot program then unceremoniously fired him before the program had a chance to gain traction.


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## oh canada (Apr 19, 2022)

I must admit, any parents with youngers who ask me about youth soccer, I tell them make sure you expose your kids to every other sport you can--both team and individual. Only choose soccer as THE ONE by the time they're 12/13, if your kid shows no interest in any other sport. The potential upsides are much greater in every other sport, the criteria on who is "good" and who is "not so" are much more identifiable and objective in every other sport, and the time invested vs. improvement rate is much better in every other sport . If you have a daughter, then the serious injury risk/rate is less in every other sport too. (The ugly politics of youth soccer are just as bad in baseball and other sports.)

I say this as a parent of 3 soccer-playing kids, my youngest just getting her college soccer offer, and one of my olders currently playing in college. I am not anti-soccer...love the game...just think there are better/easier paths in this country for athletic kids to benefit from if the family is going to spend years of time and tens-of-thousands of dollars on sports.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 19, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I say this as a parent of 3 soccer-playing kids, my youngest just getting her college soccer offer, and one of my olders currently playing in college. I am not anti-soccer...love the game...just think there are better/easier paths in this country for athletic kids to benefit from if the family is going to spend years of time and tens-of-thousands of dollars on sports.


With our nephews and nieces, it felt like once they got to college athletics the drama and issues became exponential.  (mental health, grades, career ending injuries, bullying, college transfers, pot, stress, lack of playing time,   travel fees). 

My boys were never good enough to make it to college soccer. I did have a big smile when I found out that my son was playing Intramurals soccer in college.  He quit soccer once he got to his freshman year in high school and told me that he hated soccer.   Now as an adult, he is playing again and on his own terms.


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## crush (Apr 19, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I must admit, any parents with youngers who ask me about youth soccer, I tell them make sure you expose your kids to every other sport you can--both team and individual. Only choose soccer as THE ONE by the time they're 12/13, if your kid shows no interest in any other sport. The potential upsides are much greater in every other sport, the criteria on who is "good" and who is "not so" are much more identifiable and objective in every other sport, and the time invested vs. improvement rate is much better in every other sport . If you have a daughter, then the serious injury risk/rate is less in every other sport too. (The ugly politics of youth soccer are just as bad in baseball and other sports.)
> 
> I say this as a parent of 3 soccer-playing kids, my youngest just getting her college soccer offer, and one of my olders currently playing in college. I am not anti-soccer...love the game...just think there are better/easier paths in this country for athletic kids to benefit from if the family is going to spend years of time and tens-of-thousands of dollars on sports.


Sounds like your kids love the game.  I tried to get my dd to play other sports.  Nope, it had to be soccer.  A healthy local soccer club ((like Boys and Girls clubs, but just soccer)) and some futsal mixed in would be all my kid would need and she would be in heaven.  It's been too much about getting into college for the kiddos and not enough about playing for the love of the game.


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 19, 2022)

Agree with the multi sports approach as well.  One important effect of playing multiple sports that is often overlooked is the effect on parental attitude. When your child plays only one sport, you are vested in that one sport. The intense focus brings expectation on results, pushing to practice, comparing to others. All of these will eventually turn off the child and burn them out. When you are less vested in something, you are more relaxed and go with the flow.
My son plays another sport at a very high level. I pushed him hard since he was 4. His level in this sport is actually much higher than his level in soccer. But he loves soccer. Since soccer is now taking a lot more time, I have backed off on the other sport. I noticed by me backing off, he is enjoying it a lot more. His level in the other sport actually went up even though he is doing less of it. It's very strange. But this whole experience makes me realize that it's better to have the kid do something he likes, you just provide the environment and he does all the work because he wants to.


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## Grace T. (Apr 19, 2022)

oh canada said:


> I must admit, any parents with youngers who ask me about youth soccer, I tell them make sure you expose your kids to every other sport you can--both team and individual. Only choose soccer as THE ONE by the time they're 12/13, if your kid shows no interest in any other sport. The potential upsides are much greater in every other sport, the criteria on who is "good" and who is "not so" are much more identifiable and objective in every other sport, and the time invested vs. improvement rate is much better in every other sport . If you have a daughter, then the serious injury risk/rate is less in every other sport too. (The ugly politics of youth soccer are just as bad in baseball and other sports.)
> 
> I say this as a parent of 3 soccer-playing kids, my youngest just getting her college soccer offer, and one of my olders currently playing in college. I am not anti-soccer...love the game...just think there are better/easier paths in this country for athletic kids to benefit from if the family is going to spend years of time and tens-of-thousands of dollars on sports.


One of the issues on the boys side is that there are physical requisites to the other team sports which may force a decision at age 12/13:

-boys football the skill position like qb are just as intense and start as early as soccer.  Some of the other positions are just about being physically big 
-ice hockey is just as intensive in training as soccer, has a precondition of being able to ice skate well plus favors kids of larger girth. 
-waterpolo basketball and volleyball are all about the height.  Don’t have the height the kid isn’t going to get very far
-baseball is really hard for some players with attention issues because it involves standing still and being attentive for long periods of time

That sorts of just leaves lacrosse and the individual sports.


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## crush (Apr 19, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Agree with the multi sports approach as well.  One important effect of playing multiple sports that is often overlooked is the effect on parental attitude. When your child plays only one sport, you are vested in that one sport. The intense focus brings expectation on results, pushing to practice, comparing to others. All of these will eventually turn off the child and burn them out. When you are less vested in something, you are more relaxed and go with the flow.
> My son plays another sport at a very high level. I pushed him hard since he was 4. His level in this sport is actually much higher than his level in soccer. But he loves soccer. Since soccer is now taking a lot more time, I have backed off on the other sport. I noticed by me backing off, he is enjoying it a lot more. His level in the other sport actually went up even though he is doing less of it. It's very strange. But this whole experience makes me realize that it's better to have the kid do something he likes, you just provide the environment and he does all the work because he wants to.


I played every sport I could play in as a kid.  Surfing ((all water sports)), beach volleyball, tennis, golf, baseball, soccer, football, basketball, bike riding, skate boarding and anything outside.  In high school, I picked hoops and baseball.  Let the kids pick and you just watch.  I tried so hard to force my dd to play softball and basketball for obvious reasons.  The college pull for kid is what drives the club soccer business.  It should just be a fun sport to play and if your really good, go play college or go pro.  Tom Brady came back for one more year because, "for the love of the game."


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## Carlsbad7 (Apr 19, 2022)

Paul Spacey said:


> Some great responses and advice, in particular the stuff regarding futsal/indoor (it is absolutely vital for any player IMO). You can spot the futsal players or exceptional decision makers in about 2 minutes watching almost any game.
> 
> One thing nobody mentioned is early engagement with a ball, something championed by renowned American coach Tom Byer (he is far more popular in Asia than here in the US but he's got more traction here in recent years). If you miss out on that engagement then you miss out on a crucial part of development that cannot be replicated or replaced. Does that mean everyone absolutely has to engage with a ball as a toddler? no. Are those players who do engage with a ball at a very young age usually more proficient in terms of their technical skills and ball handling? invariably, yes.
> 
> ...


As a parent of a Futsal player. When doing Field I can easily point out the players that either have played Futsal or are currently playing. 

Theres just certain movements that Futsal teaches. Specifically tight ball control, keeping your head up, and quick passes / decision making.

One thing Futsal does not teach is pure speed breakaway technique. But it will help with 1 on 1s with goalies during a breakaway.


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## watfly (Apr 19, 2022)

Here is an example of club soccer craziness.  Today a post popped up on my Facebook feed from my son's old club.  The post said that a B2013 team was looking for an "impact player".  The team is the 4th tier team at that club at that age group.  What qualifies as an impact player at 8-9 years old on a 4th tier team?  A kid that can walk and chew gum at the same time?  What do you need an impact player for at this age group?  Racking up wins at the lowest level of club soccer?


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 19, 2022)

If I had it to do again I would spend my time and money on private training during those younger years, consider indoor soccer league and probably rec. soccer.  My daughter would have had more fun with that plan.  Hind site is 20/20.


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## timbuck (Apr 19, 2022)

watfly said:


> Here is an example of club soccer craziness.  Today a post popped up on my Facebook feed from my son's old club.  The post said that a B2013 team was looking for an "impact player".  The team is the 4th tier team at that club at that age group.  What qualifies as an impact player at 8-9 years old on a 4th tier team?  A kid that can walk and chew gum at the same time?  What do you need an impact player for at this age group?  Racking up wins at the lowest level of club soccer?


They probably can't say "we need a kid born in the age group that can fog a mirror" to fill a spot.  
The term "impact player" is the same as "elite", "academy", "development", and "pathway'".  Buzzwords that everyone uses but nobody knows what they really mean any longer.


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## BIGD (Apr 19, 2022)

timbuck said:


> They probably can't say "we need a kid born in the age group that can fog a mirror" to fill a spot.
> The term "impact player" is the same as "elite", "academy", "development", and "pathway'".  Buzzwords that everyone uses but nobody knows what they really mean any longer.


Or on the flip side, I took it to mean, "it's not a very good team and we need at least 1 player that can play and your son/daughter could be the star".  Either way, I can't believe this would still work.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 19, 2022)

BIGD said:


> Or on the flip side, I took it to mean, "it's not a very good team and we need at least 1 player that can play and your son/daughter could be the star".  Either way, I can't believe this would still work.


It doesnt, I tried it with our  2009 flight 2 team. LOL!!!!   Ultimately we have to develop our own players  (what a concept) to build them to become  impact players. It's actually working now for us after 4 years of the team being together.


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## Paul Spacey (Apr 19, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> It doesnt, I tried it with our  2009 flight 2 team. LOL!!!!   Ultimately we have to develop our own players  (what a concept) to build them to become  impact players. It's actually working now for us after 4 years of the team being together.


Imagine that; actual development instead of recruitment. What a strange concept


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## Eagle33 (Apr 20, 2022)

Paul Spacey said:


> Imagine that; actual development instead of recruitment. What a strange concept


"Why develop when you can recruit?!" - said a DOC at (insert name here) club


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> "Why develop when you can recruit?!" - said a DOC at (insert name here) club


Recruiting is the only way to truly win it all.  You can't develop a bunch of 9 year olds on one team and make a champion.  It's about winning at the highest level at each sport.  Winning is in cream and to get the cream to rise to the top, you need the best of the best goats.  When other Doc and parents saw Tad show up the first time to my kids game, they got pissed off and warned me to stay clear of the guru.  Tad was not after the coaches teams or business, no, just one or two players he was after at most top clubs, ECNL or no ECNL.  Today, Docs are going after teams and coaches and then buying clubs and knocking them out of leagues and out of business.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 20, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> "Why develop when you can recruit?!" - said a DOC at (insert name here) club


Blues!!!! all the way.


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## Grace T. (Apr 20, 2022)

watfly said:


> Here is an example of club soccer craziness.  Today a post popped up on my Facebook feed from my son's old club.  The post said that a B2013 team was looking for an "impact player".  The team is the 4th tier team at that club at that age group.  What qualifies as an impact player at 8-9 years old on a 4th tier team?  A kid that can walk and chew gum at the same time?  What do you need an impact player for at this age group?  Racking up wins at the lowest level of club soccer?


At that age?  It’s a kid that can outrun all the other kids and score. You only need one. And you need one to earn the promotion and keep the parents from leaving for higher level pastures. 



SoccerFan4Life said:


> It doesnt, I tried it with our  2009 flight 2 team. LOL!!!!   Ultimately we have to develop our own players  (what a concept) to build them to become  impact players. It's actually working now for us after 4 years of the team being together.


hats off for your coach and team being able to do that. It’s the exception rather than the rule. First you need a coach that wants and can develop players and which sticks (doesn’t change jobs and club doesn’t move them) with the team for several years.  Second you need families that are all dedicated and willing to put in the work, that don’t scapegoat players learning during the painful part and the more physically and technically advanced players don’t move on to higher level teams.

the best teams my sons played for with the best development focused coaches are still puttering around in the lower levels.  The more advanced players eventually got bored and looked for greener pastures so team has to start over. Rinse repeat every year.


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> *At that age?  It’s a kid that can outrun all the other kids and score.*
> First you need a coach that wants and can develop players and which sticks (doesn’t change jobs and club doesn’t move them) with the team for several years.
> Second you need families that are all dedicated
> The more advanced players eventually got bored and looked for greener pastures so team has to start over. Rinse repeat every year.


It was called kickball in my dd younger years.  Kick the ball over the top and have the fastest one run it down for the goal and the victory and the glory.  Boring and not how soccer should be played.  Direct has some passing, kickball does not.  Possession that's starts from the back is how soccer should be played always.  No GK punts allowed until last 5 minutes of a match.  Everything needs to be played from the back.  No rushing on the first pass inside the goal box so defender can have time to collect and turn and look to pass to next player.


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## Grace T. (Apr 20, 2022)

watfly said:


> Here is an example of club soccer craziness.  Today a post popped up on my Facebook feed from my son's old club.  The post said that a B2013 team was looking for an "impact player".  The team is the 4th tier team at that club at that age group.  What qualifies as an impact player at 8-9 years old on a 4th tier team?  A kid that can walk and chew gum at the same time?  What do you need an impact player for at this age group?  Racking up wins at the lowest level of club soccer?


Ps this isn’t even the worst thing because it has a grain of truth to it.  You really do need just that 1 impact player at that age that can outrun the defenders in order to keep parents happy and earn any required promotions

the bigger sin is the teams that think the goalkeeper can actually make a difference at that age. On the girls end fortunately there’s less of it because many of the lower level teams just want a goalkeeper due to the shortage. But on the boys end it can be brutal and the goalkeepers can be scapegoated if the team performs badly but at that age their responsibility really should be just balls shot straight at them.


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## espola (Apr 20, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> At that age?  It’s a kid that can outrun all the other kids and score. You only need one. And you need one to earn the promotion and keep the parents from leaving for higher level pastures.
> ble
> 
> hats off for your coach and team being able to do that. It’s the exception rather than the rule. First you need a coach that wants and can develop players and which sticks (doesn’t change jobs and club doesn’t move them) with the team for several years.  Second you need families that are all dedicated and willing to put in the work, that don’t scapegoat players learning during the painful part and the more physically and technically advanced players don’t move on to higher level teams.
> ...


Some of the best athletes my kids played with eventually decided they were better (or had better opportunities available) in other sports.  Really good soccer players at age 10 wandered off to baseball, football, basketball, distance running, and karate.  The biggest and best player on their first competitive team at the U8 level is still making a living playing pro tennis - his mom put him in a summer tennis program at age 11 and he never played soccer again.


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Ps this isn’t even the worst thing because it has a grain of truth to it.  You really do need just that 1 impact player at that age that can outrun the defenders in order to keep parents happy and earn any required promotions
> 
> the bigger sin is the teams that think the goalkeeper can actually make a difference at that age. On the girls end fortunately there’s less of it because many of the lower level teams just want a goalkeeper due to the shortage. But on the boys end it can be brutal and the goalkeepers can be scapegoated if the team performs badly but at that age their responsibility really should be just balls shot straight at them.


So true.  Also, if the impact players parent(s) are poor or just have no extra money, the team of parents can pick up the impact players fees and pay for all travel costs.  That is an impact player Grace T.  How's this for an ad looking for one "Impact" player:

Attention all soccer parent(s) with an impact* player.  Our Elite team is in need of one impact* player.  We have the defenders that can knock other players down and then kick it over the top for your impact* player to score and get all the glory.  Is your child the next IMPACT* player?

**Faster then anyone else on the team.  *


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

espola said:


> Some of the best athletes my kids played with eventually decided they were better (or had better opportunities available) in other sports.  Really good soccer players at age 10 wandered off to baseball, football, basketball, distance running, and karate.  The biggest and best player on their first competitive team at the U8 level is still making a living playing pro tennis - his mom put him in a summer tennis program at age 11 and he never played soccer again.


That was me Espola.  I played AYSO up until 8th grade as did all the great athletes in Laguna.  High school came and it came down to Hoops vs Soccer for me.  It was a no brainer.  Magic and showtime had my heart and I fell in love with basketball.  I knew in 8th grade I had no real chance at baseball.  I went to a Norm Sherry & Del Crandall baseball camp and I saw 100 mph up close and personal, plus Charlie Hough did bating practice and I saw his knuckleball up close and just enough to tell me no chance to go pro.  @Multi Sport took Guidry deep on 0-2 pitch so he knew what he was doing.  Bro, why no MLB?  Minors?  I tried once when I was 19 in Semi Pro but that failed.


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

For the record:  Club soccer is not a waste of time or money at the younger ages, moo


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## NorCalDad (Apr 20, 2022)

espola said:


> Some of the best athletes my kids played with eventually decided they were better (or had better opportunities available) in other sports.  Really good soccer players at age 10 wandered off to baseball, football, basketball, distance running, and karate.  The biggest and best player on their first competitive team at the U8 level is still making a living playing pro tennis - his mom put him in a summer tennis program at age 11 and he never played soccer again.


This is why I think it's crazy how insane some parents get over this stuff for the younger kids.  Competing attention and puberty have massive impacts on kids.  It really makes no sense getting all whacko over all of this stuff.  That said, there's nothing wrong with seeking out the best environment for you kid.


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## GT45 (Apr 20, 2022)

Puberty has a huge impact. I have seen kids who were far and away the superstars at 12 years old. Same core team as seniors in high school, and those top 12 years olds were average at best on the team. The kids on the bench at 12 years old were some of the best players as seniors in HS, and went on to play college soccer. The reason the stars at 12 years old were so successful then is because they hit their peak growth before everyone else. They were bigger and stronger than their peers. The others hit their growth spurts later, and surpassed those players.

Puberty can also take away a players pace. A once fast player, sometimes loses that speed when puberty hits.


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## watfly (Apr 20, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> This is why I think it's crazy how insane some parents get over this stuff for the younger kids.  Competing attention and puberty have massive impacts on kids.  It really makes no sense getting all whacko over all of this stuff.  That said, there's nothing wrong with seeking out the best environment for you kid.


My U15 son has played club soccer since U7.  Dabbled in a few other sports when he was younger, but otherwise was full time competitive soccer with DA and MLS Next.  He was a starter on his MLS Next team and just quit.  Would have liked him to finish out the season but given the circumstances with the 3rd new coach this season there was no point in staying.  He was likely on a trajectory where he could have played college soccer on a scholarship, but we were never planning that as an outcome.  The DOC of the club and an old coach who is now at another club are trying hard to convince him to not quit soccer as they claim he has a bright future.  He's not persuaded at all.  He was never passionate about soccer and played because he was good.  He handles pressure just fine, but doesn't like it.  He felt a lot of pressure from his coaches.  It stopped being fun.

I think in some ways the term "burnout" is overused.  As you mention, I think other opportunities and interests play a roll in that as well, particularly as kids go to high school.  He will be going next year and plans to play football, basketball and golf, when he is not skating, surfing, snowboarding or hanging with friends.  It takes a different sort of kid to stick with soccer.  I was super bummed when he quit, but just I few weeks later I can say I'm enjoying having my weekends back and I have a new buddy for the slopes.

One thing I will say about club coaches.  Most are very knowledgeable about soccer, but very few know how to teach, communicate and motivate kids.


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

GT45 said:


> Puberty has a huge impact. I have seen kids who were far and away the superstars at 12 years old. Same core team as seniors in high school, and those top 12 years olds were average at best on the team. The kids on the bench at 12 years old were some of the best players as seniors in HS, and went on to play college soccer. The reason the stars at 12 years old were so successful then is because they hit their peak growth before everyone else. They were bigger and stronger than their peers. The others hit their growth spurts later, and surpassed those players.
> 
> Puberty can also take away a players pace. A once fast player, sometimes loses that speed when puberty hits.


I was told by the guru himself that from the beginning of puberty for girls through the end of high school many things will happen to the female and their body.  My kid was always the smallest on the team and grew 6 inches in two years to finish 5 5'  Maybe she has a late growth and adds one more inch, but could be all done.  Not bad way to finsih for how she started in soccer.  The big girls that were fast and coordinated put her on the grass way too much.  You can't score if your on the ground all the time.  Today's game is super physical in college.  I also think confidence hit females hard going into middle school.  Looks, insecurities, boys, peer pressure, home work and being introduced to other sports and other things to do play a big roll in why some girls get more confident and better and the other great 12 year old quits in middle school because it's too hard.  It happens to boys as well.  I was one of the best baseball players in little league in 6th grade.  All stars and I was super fast and could steal a base at will.  Basically, if I got to 1st base, I was scoring  The boys were still boys and just a few man Childs in 6th grade. I was late to the game to become a real man in middle school and I was super small and super fast. Middle school the boys who became men before me destroyed me in everything. My size killed me and I just became a good baseball and basketball player the rest of my life. I played varsity hoops in 10th grade against the Call brothers and DeCases Bros and I was only 5 5' and under 150 lbs. I got destroyed and humbled all in that year. I look back and I'm shocked my little school had to play in the South Coast League but it taught me to be tough and how to lose. I had no business playing against D1 talent week after week. I went to Troy my Sr year that helped me be more confident. I grew 5 inches as well in two years and finished 5 10' and first team all league in Freeway league. Boys do not lose speed, but girls do. I was told if your dd keeps her speed, be happy


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

watfly said:


> My U15 son has played club soccer since U7.  Dabbled in a few other sports when he was younger, but otherwise was full time competitive soccer with DA and MLS Next.  He was a starter on his MLS Next team and just quit.  Would have liked him to finish out the season but given the circumstances with the 3rd new coach this season there was no point in staying.  He was likely on a trajectory where he could have played college soccer on a scholarship, but we were never planning that as an outcome.  The DOC of the club and an old coach who is now at another club are trying hard to convince him to not quit soccer as they claim he has a bright future.  He's not persuaded at all.  He was never passionate about soccer and played because he was good.  He handles pressure just fine, but doesn't like it.  He felt a lot of pressure from his coaches.  It stopped being fun.
> 
> I think in some ways the term "burnout" is overused.  As you mention, I think other opportunities and interests play a roll in that as well, particularly as kids go to high school.  He will be going next year and plans to play football, basketball and golf, when he is not skating, surfing, snowboarding or hanging with friends.  It takes a different sort of kid to stick with soccer.  I was super bummed when he quit, but just I few weeks later I can say I'm enjoying having my weekends back and I have a new buddy for the slopes.
> 
> One thing I will say about club coaches.  Most are very knowledgeable about soccer, but very few know how to teach, communicate and motivate kids.


Thanks for sharing.  It's all or nothing for these types of kids and it's good to have choices at this age.  My wife's brother David played club for his dad and a big time club that also had Jim Edmonds on it.  David was the best player on the team and when a goal was needed, David's name was yelled all the time, "get it to David" was called to save the day.  Grandpa was from Guatemala and soccer is King and he loved to win and he coached to win.  It was highest level of club and winning was the only goal.  David was quiet and to himself but was so crafty and fast and well built and could score.  His dad was out going and yelled a lot in Spanish.  Well, after winning it all and being a hero, David told his dad, "futbol no mas Papi."  Dad was sad but told his son do want you have passion for son.  He enrolled at Walnut High School and played football all four years.  Was all-league nose guard and had offers to play JC at MT Sac.  My wife say's David could have been soccer pro but hated the yelling and all the pressure.  He lives in Japan with his wife and three kids.  Great guy and a calm soul


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## youthsportsuggghhhhgghh (Apr 20, 2022)

I would say yes -- even up to 12, unless you get a group of kids that all understand moving without the ball  and not play kick ball or group ball. Get some private lessons and play rec with some like minded friends. Then when the kid has had lots of touches and comfortable with the ball start the search of where to pay to play


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 20, 2022)

What's the going rate to be on a flight 1 or flight 2 teams in a big club like the Strikers, Liverpools, Blues...?


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## jimlewis (Apr 20, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> What's the going rate to be on a flight 1 or flight 2 teams in a big club like the Strikers, Liverpools, Blues...?


a kid with considerable talent, and based on your comment, most likely out of your "price" range


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## crush (Apr 20, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> What's the going rate to be on a flight 1 or flight 2 teams in a big club like the Strikers, Liverpools, Blues...?


Here's my guess.  Strikers will be cheaper on the girls side and more on the boys side.  I spoke to a little stud MLS kid and asked him straight up, "hey bro, ECNL or MLS for boys.  He said said MLS 100% and smiled.  Great kid.  Liverpool is slightly more next season and Blues will charge more.  I used to get a can of beans for $.99 and now a can of beans is $1.49.  Prices will go up like anything and club soccer will go up to play in socal.


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 20, 2022)

I've heard $2500 / 6 months. Is that accurate?


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## Multi Sport (Apr 20, 2022)

crush said:


> That was me Espola.  I played AYSO up until 8th grade as did all the great athletes in Laguna.  High school came and it came down to Hoops vs Soccer for me.  It was a no brainer.  Magic and showtime had my heart and I fell in love with basketball.  I knew in 8th grade I had no real chance at baseball.  I went to a Norm Sherry & Del Crandall baseball camp and I saw 100 mph up close and personal, plus Charlie Hough did bating practice and I saw his knuckleball up close and just enough to tell me no chance to go pro.  @Multi Sport took Guidry deep on 0-2 pitch so he knew what he was doing.  Bro, why no MLB?  Minors?  I tried once when I was 19 in Semi Pro but that failed.


Easy answer..I started my own company at 20 and haven't looked back.


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## bossman (Apr 22, 2022)

Surround your kid with faster, technical players as soon as possible. They adapt to their environment. Good luck finding that consistency outside of a club team with licensed coaches.


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## EvilGoalie 21 (Apr 23, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> college athletics (mental health, grades).


I think its worth emphasizing how real this is for parents that may not know.  Athletic departments have academic success programs put in place, and I think for most student athletes its a great experience.  But the pressures are very real, and students can be scared to "come clean" about academic problems with coaches, etc. hoping nobody will notice or they can right the ship somehow.  Mental health issues, academic integrity issues, it can go south real fast.


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## EvilGoalie 21 (Apr 23, 2022)

I guess one thing I wished I had appreciated at the outset of the club soccer experience was the extent to which being a player can become the core of a kid's identity.  So as it draws to a close the whole athletic/academic fit thing can end up being not just a decision making process but also something of an existential crisis.  Its easy to say yeah I can see the soccer being important, but really understanding how deep that wiring goes.....  

BTW for a goalkeeper I highly recommend tennis as a second sport.  Great for footwork, lateral movement, etc.


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## Multi Sport (Apr 25, 2022)

A waste? Hmm..if it's fun and the travel isn't much then do it.


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## Grace T. (Apr 25, 2022)

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I guess one thing I wished I had appreciated at the outset of the club soccer experience was the extent to which being a player can become the core of a kid's identity.  So as it draws to a close the whole athletic/academic fit thing can end up being not just a decision making process but also something of an existential crisis.  Its easy to say yeah I can see the soccer being important, but really understanding how deep that wiring goes.....


This is true of the primary endeavors of most high school kids performing at the highest level: student council president, football jock, cheerleader, honors society, drama lead, debate team captain, lead band guitarist, artist, dancer, activism, dead poets society. High school is an age where kids seek out identity. Middle school is where they explore and put various hats on.  College is where they begin to see it was all bs…hence the existential crises.


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## Woodwork (Apr 25, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> This is true of the primary endeavors of most high school kids performing at the highest level: student council president, football jock, cheerleader, honors society, drama lead, debate team captain, lead band guitarist, artist, dancer, activism, dead poets society. High school is an age where kids seek out identity. Middle school is where they explore and put various hats on.  College is where they begin to see it was all bs…hence the existential crises.


There are some identities not listed above that are much worse than being over-invested in soccer.  That being said, without the time constraints of competitive club soccer (at least at the highest level) all those eggs don't have to go in one basket.  There is an argument that it may be better if they have time to do 3 or 4 of the above.  ECNL soccer is a 15-20 hour per week commitment.  ECNL players usually stink at guitar as a result.


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## zebrafish (Apr 26, 2022)

I think one needs to define waste.

Will playing rec soccer at age 10 and under likely slow your kid's developmental progress if they continue after age 10 and desire to play competitive soccer? Yes, likely. 

Will that difference matter in their life when they are 50 years old? Probably not.

Is that worth the extra money? Only you can figure that out.


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## crush (Apr 26, 2022)

zebrafish said:


> *I think *((each))* one* ((family)) *needs to define waste.*
> *Only you *((player)) *can figure that out.*


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## Multi Sport (Apr 26, 2022)

Parents also tend to muck it up for the kids. If your kid is the alpha on the team at u10 then the pressure is on for the next 8 to stay the alpha. Rarely happens. 

Enjoy the journey but remove the parental goggles along the way.


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## zebrafish (Apr 26, 2022)

My kid played AYSO until they were like 9-10-ish 
It was a great environment, not because it was AYSO necessarily, but because there was a good group of cohesive parents/kids, the competition was reasonably appropriate, and there was good coaching.
As kids get older, I think it can be hard to find that cohesion in rec/AYSO, the coaching is not great, and the level of soccer is not good.
But all those things are definitely not a given in club soccer, either. 
In club environment, we've been lucky enough to find a good group of kids/parents and an excellent coach. 
So for me, the environment is the key-- whether it is labelled rec, club, DPL, ECNL, ECRL, DA, etc. isn't really critical (to me, and mostly to my kid). Is my kid happy? Are they challenged? Do they like the game? Is their coach a decent human being and a good teacher of the game?


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> There are some identities not listed above that are much worse than being over-invested in soccer.  That being said, without the time constraints of competitive club soccer (at least at the highest level) all those eggs don't have to go in one basket.  There is an argument that it may be better if they have time to do 3 or 4 of the above.  ECNL soccer is a 15-20 hour per week commitment.  ECNL players usually stink at guitar as a result.


I agree some identities are much worse and there are some that are just in the eye of the beholder based on values (e.g., being goth v. being an elite soccer player).  I agree there's an argument that having more well rounded children might be better off for society too.

However, this runs into the 1000 touches problem (that people, whether its the violin, soccer, or math, get proficient by constant repetition in the 1 thing).  Everything for kids (whether it's grades, violin, equestrian, dance, sport or even fake charities kids applying to fancy private schools feel compelled to start) is in this arms race to build expertise, because the kids want to stand out when it comes to college admissions.  Add the propensity for kids in high school to want to chose a  hat to wear, and a healthy dose of parental pushing, and it's the perfect storm for an arms race.  The reality is someone doing 3 or 4 on the list probably won't have the chops to get a look at higher level soccer team, play on the competitive jazz band, travel with the debate club, run the student council, and maintain the grade point average they need for whatever college they are aiming for (which as we've discussed elsewhere on these forums, matters even for soccer players since grades play a role even in recruited admissions and not all scholarships are pure sports scholarships due to the various caps).


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I agree some identities are much worse and there are some that are just in the eye of the beholder based on values (e.g., being goth v. being an elite soccer player).  I agree there's an argument that having more well rounded children might be better off for society too.
> 
> However, this runs into the 1000 touches problem (that people, whether its the violin, soccer, or math, get proficient by constant repetition in the 1 thing).  Everything for kids (whether it's grades, violin, equestrian, dance, sport or even fake charities kids applying to fancy private schools feel compelled to start) is in this arms race to build expertise, because the kids want to stand out when it comes to college admissions.  Add the propensity for kids in high school to want to chose a  hat to wear, and a healthy dose of parental pushing, and it's the perfect storm for an arms race.  The reality is someone doing 3 or 4 on the list probably won't have the chops to get a look at higher level soccer team, play on the competitive jazz band, travel with the debate club, run the student council, and maintain the grade point average they need for whatever college they are aiming for (which as we've discussed elsewhere on these forums, matters even for soccer players since grades play a role even in recruited admissions and not all scholarships are pure sports scholarships due to the various caps).


Violin doesn't make you fly across the country and miss the Monday before finals to attend a tournament.  Math doesn't make you choose between academics and sport.  Being student body president doesn't require $6,000+ per year in fees and travel expense.  There are serious questions about the sacrifice/commitment required for ECNL-Level soccer and the payout.  And there are a lot of non-ECNL teams requiring similar commitment with false promises of a payout.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

zebrafish said:


> Is that worth the extra money? Only you can figure that out.


I think we can get to roughly subjective market value.  Based on ROI, you can get 80-90% of the value from club soccer by playing AYSO Select and then Elite or whatever and by sticking to teams that travel very locally.  Yet, that may cost 20% of what an ECNL team requires all in.

You can factor scholarships in.  But weigh that against the extra $6000 per year you spend on elite clubs each year, say for 6 years of ECNL, plus interest.  By not doing "elite" club soccer, you have about $40,000 saved up for your kid to go to a UC, which represents about 1/2 tuition for 4 years or full tuition for a CSU for all 4 years.  

And your kid can do internships or work part time while in school for a head start in life, get paid another $10,000 per year rather than play soccer for scholarship money.  So you get about $80,000 to not play ECNL, plus real world job experience for your kid.

Soccer has a value, but the admissions or scholarship value are highly dubious in my opinion.


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Four years ago, Riley Jackson was cut from her local ODP tryouts. Yesterday, she captained the #U17WYNT and dished out three assists in the win over Puerto Rico at the #CWU17









 Everyone has their own journey. This is Riley’s 

	
	
		
		
	


	






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518969119349129218
Good story.


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Soccer (sport) has tremendous value that cannot be quantified in dollars. Confidence, social skills, teamwork, work ethic, commitment, friendships, dealing with adversity, family trips, memories. I watched a very shy child grow into a confident young adult, who captained her collegiate team. That social growth and her friendships can be heavily attributed to her experiences and confidence gained in soccer. These are life skills.


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Violin doesn't make you fly across the country and miss the Monday before finals to attend a tournament.  Math doesn't make you choose between academics and sport.  Being student body president doesn't require $6,000+ per year in fees and travel expense.  There are serious questions about the sacrifice/commitment required for ECNL-Level soccer and the payout.  And there are a lot of non-ECNL teams requiring similar commitment with false promises of a payout.


Violin being performed at the highest scholarship levels does (the only difference is the school is likely involved in the orchestra competition and will therefore make accommodations on the exam, whereas club soccer probably doesn't get the accommodation.  Same with football and basketball BTW which are recruited mostly out of high school).  Don't even get me started on water polo, equestrian, fencing, cheerleading or dance.  Soccer may very well be among the worst in terms of out of school time and financial commitment but it's not alone there.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> Soccer (sport) has tremendous value that cannot be quantified in dollars. Confidence, social skills, teamwork, work ethic, commitment, friendships, dealing with adversity, family trips, memories. I watched a very shy child grow into a confident young adult, who captained her collegiate team. That social growth and her friendships can be heavily attributed to her experiences and confidence gained in soccer. These are life skills.


So, if I paid $100,000 for my kid to be on the team you describe, you would say I didn't overpay?


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## Multi Sport (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> Four years ago, Riley Jackson was cut from her local ODP tryouts. Yesterday, she captained the #U17WYNT and dished out three assists in the win over Puerto Rico at the #CWU17
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My youngest DD was cut from her first club team at U12. Five years later the same coach wanted her back and made room by cutting several girls who he had kept five years earlier. 

My DD played four years of collegiate soccer and earned over 100k in scholarship money. For her, it worked out. Her younger brother was hit with the injury bug and retired his Senior year. 

Nobody has a crystal ball. But I can say that I'm now getting around to projects around the house that I've been waiting on. Oh, and my DD is my ski buddy now. Watching her drop in on Dave's Run and Scottys with me is the best feeling.


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I think we can get to roughly subjective market value.  Based on ROI, you can get 80-90% of the value from club soccer by playing AYSO Select and then Elite or whatever and by sticking to teams that travel very locally.  Yet, that may cost 20% of what an ECNL team requires all in.
> 
> You can factor scholarships in.  But weigh that against the extra $6000 per year you spend on elite clubs each year, say for 6 years of ECNL, plus interest.  By not doing "elite" club soccer, you have about $40,000 saved up for your kid to go to a UC, which represents about 1/2 tuition for 4 years or full tuition for a CSU for all 4 years.
> 
> ...


This sort of conflates the routes into college.  There are "tracks" into colleges which kids get sorted into...it's complicated and gets blurry because of the diversity, legacy and equity (first time college attendee) preferences.  And it's not all about the scholarship (in fact many athletic scholarships are packaged as academic scholarships because schools are fiddling with their caps), but about admissions.

The violinist in my hypothetical is on the arts track.  As part of their submission, they'll be required to submit a performance piece and may very well be scouted at major music competitions the school performs in.  It is expected that the violinist will apply as a music major, or at a minimum as a music minor recruited into a particular school orchestra or band.  The soccer athlete is being recruited into the athletic track and it's expected they will take their place on the team...it's a different pool of consideration than the regular academic track.  If the violinist or athlete is not going to apply via these tracks, probably spending an inordinate amount of time on them is not warranted (particularly since if they are applying to private schools, the time needs to be directed elsewhere such as the aforementioned fake charities, testing prep, other extracurriculars they will focus on in college, particularly in the sophomore and junior years).  If the violinist or athlete is not going the art/athletic track, then yes may as well play local than sink all the money into that travel and fees.  It checks the "well rounded" box for the application, and other than checking that box it's not going to get you much on the admission essay (public schools are much more straight forward and have admission equations for the academic route which include things like GPA, high school/state of origin, test scores and diversity scores).

But the worst thing you can do when applying to a private school that requires essays/interviews is spend all you time in an activity (such as playing the piano) and then declare you have no interest in playing piano in college.  The elite piano player that wants to be a doctor or the published author that wants to be a business MBA and go to wall street has a lot of explaining to do as to why if they are so passionate about this activity, they are so willing to drop it wholesale when they get to college.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Violin being performed at the highest scholarship levels does (the only difference is the school is likely involved in the orchestra competition and will therefore make accommodations on the exam, whereas club soccer probably doesn't get the accommodation.  Same with football and basketball BTW which are recruited mostly out of high school).  Don't even get me started on water polo, equestrian, fencing, cheerleading or dance.  Soccer may very well be among the worst in terms of out of school time and financial commitment but it's not alone there.


I posit that the school accommodations make all the difference, though.  Club soccer lives in its own world and way too often loses sight of its place in the grand scheme.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> This sort of conflates the routes into college.  There are "tracks" into colleges which kids get sorted into...it's complicated and gets blurry because of the diversity, legacy and equity (first time college attendee) preferences.  And it's not all about the scholarship (in fact many athletic scholarships are packaged as academic scholarships because schools are fiddling with their caps), but about admissions.
> 
> The violinist in my hypothetical is on the arts track.  As part of their submission, they'll be required to submit a performance piece and may very well be scouted at major music competitions the school performs in.  It is expected that the violinist will apply as a music major, or at a minimum as a music minor recruited into a particular school orchestra or band.  The soccer athlete is being recruited into the athletic track and it's expected they will take their place on the team...it's a different pool of consideration than the regular academic track.  If the violinist or athlete is not going to apply via these tracks, probably spending an inordinate amount of time on them is not warranted (particularly since if they are applying to private schools, the time needs to be directed elsewhere such as the aforementioned fake charities, testing prep, other extracurriculars they will focus on in college, particularly in the sophomore and junior years).  If the violinist or athlete is not going the athletic track, then yes may as well play local than sink all the money into that travel and fees.  It checks the "well rounded" box for the application, and other than checking that box it's not going to get you much on the admission essay (public schools are much more straight forward and have admission equations for the academic route which include things like GPA, high school/state of origin, test scores and diversity scores).
> 
> But the worst thing you can do when applying to a private school that requires essays/interviews is spend all you time in an activity (such as playing the piano) and then declare you have no interest in playing piano in college.


I knew a violinist who went to an ivy-league equivalent and graduated with honors as a music major, then played in orchestras, founded a non-profit, and taught high school music.  The equivalent amount of time she invested in playing violin was less than what was required for a kid who ultimately got recruited to play soccer at a local CSU but didn't even get a soccer degree at the end.  Are you arguing in favor of Soccer as the path or are you arguing that there are definitely better ones?  Are you agreeing that soccer is a waste of time in relation to other school-oriented things if they aren't going to play in college?


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I knew a violinist who went to an ivy-league equivalent and graduated with honors as a music major, then played in orchestras, founded a non-profit, and taught high school music.  The equivalent amount of time she invested in playing violin was less than what was required for a kid who ultimately got recruited to play soccer at a local CSU but didn't even get a soccer degree at the end.  Are you arguing in favor of Soccer as the path or are you arguing that there are definitely better ones?  Are you agreeing that soccer is a waste of time in relation to other school-oriented things if they aren't going to play in college?


I knew quite a few athletes that actually got into an Ivy League school and probably wouldn't have been there if the athletic track wasn't part of the equation.  I also know a handful of athletes that are on "academic" or "financial aid" scholarships for their respective private high schools that probably wouldn't have gotten in and/or been able to afford the high school but for their focus on athletics.  There are too many variables to come to a clear answer.  But here are the questions.

-Does this kid want to go to college or not (playing AYSO is certainly not going to take you pro, which is admittedly for a small handful of kids only)?
-What track is the kid best suited for?
-Where do they want to go to college?
-What major is the kid pursuing?
-How much does the kid like soccer?
-How good are they really?
-What else have they got going for them?
-How much is scholarship money a consideration (for some poorer families it may be a big one)?

I agree that if the player is not looking to go on the athletic route into college and is very interested in going to a good school (not just a safety) and/or needs the scholarship that, at least in high school, playing at a very high level travel ball is probably a waste of time and money, since playing more local is enough to check the "well rounded" and "does a sport" box and, particularly if the kid is applying to private school, the time is probably better spent on something that will actually catch the admission's committee eye as something that will carry on in college.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I knew quite a few athletes that actually got into an Ivy League school and probably wouldn't have been there if the athletic track wasn't part of the equation.  I also know a handful of athletes that are on "academic" or "financial aid" scholarships for their respective private high schools that probably wouldn't have gotten in and/or been able to afford the high school but for their focus on athletics.  There are too many variables to come to a clear answer.  But here are the questions.
> 
> -Does this kid want to go to college or not (playing AYSO is certainly not going to take you pro, which is admittedly for a small handful of kids only)?
> -What track is the kid best suited for?
> ...


Let's get real about where ECNL players go by and large.  Here is a non-Blues non-Surf local ECNL class of 2020 list:

Grambling State University
University of Arizona
Sonoma State University
Adams State University
University of New Mexico
University of Houston
The Masters University
Cal Baptist University
Cal State San Marcos
Cal State Fullerton
UC Riverside
Trinity Christian College
Trinity Christian College
Northwest Missouri State Univ

In the soccer sense, it is a huge accomplishment to get to play soccer at any of these places.  Very impressive.   And these are good colleges - so I don't mean to take that away from them.  Great places to go.  But let's not pretend that $36,000 saved, a 3.7, and student body and debate team doesn't get you to these places without ECNL.  And Ivy league isn't the be-all-end-all (overrated in my experience), but none of these are in that range.

Let's imagine 15 hours per week put into math, music, debate, extra credit in school instead of club soccer and the money put into an account.


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## Multi Sport (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Let's get real about where ECNL players go by and large.  Here is a non-Blues non-Surf local ECNL class of 2020 list:
> 
> Grambling State University
> University of Arizona
> ...


My daughter was recruited by two of those schools. She didn't play ECNL.

She was 4.0 all four years. 

So what the school sees is an academic scholarship backed by an athletic scholarship.  The more they can give in academic money the more they have available in athletic money to give to the kid who doesn't have a strong academic record.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Multi Sport said:


> My daughter was recruited by two of those schools. She didn't play ECNL.
> 
> She was 4.0 all four years.
> 
> So what the school sees is an academic scholarship backed by an athletic scholarship.  The more they can give in academic money the more they have available in athletic money to give to the kid who doesn't have a strong academic record.


I went to a school like this and had a 3.2 and student aid, got work experience, and didn't have to play soccer.  We are giving too much credit to soccer here.


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Let's get real about where ECNL players go by and large.  Here is a non-Blues non-Surf local ECNL class of 2020 list:
> 
> Grambling State University
> University of Arizona
> ...


For UC Riverside actually (public school so it's more of a formula and student body/debate/soccer don't really matter as much on the application other than check the boxes), an unweighted 3.7 is probably not enough to get in.  Indeed, your state of residence is probably more impactful than the activities you do.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> For UC Riverside actually (public school so it's more of a formula and student body/debate/soccer don't really matter as much on the application other than check the boxes), an unweighted 3.7 is probably not enough to get in.  Indeed, your state of residence is probably more impactful than the activities you do.


I picked 3.7 because that is precisely the median for UC Riverside, weighted.  I love UCR, but only UC Merced is less selective. (And I hope it stays accessible.)


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I picked 3.7 because that is precisely the median for UC Riverside, weighted.  I love UCR, but only UC Merced is less selective. (And I hope it stays accessible.)


I show the average is 3.85 weighted, and that's before you throw out the out of staters, legacies, donors, employee preferences, and sports and art recruits.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I show the average is 3.85 weighted, and that's before you throw out the out of staters, legacies, donors, employee preferences, and sports and art recruits.


Does that support that spending $36,000 on ECNL and devoting 15 hours a week to ECNL is worth it, from a college admissions perspective?


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Does that support that spending $36,000 on ECNL and devoting 15 hours a week to ECNL is worth it, from a college admissions perspective?


Again, depends on a variety of circumstances.  If you only  have a 3.7 weighted gpa, don't qualify as another preference (e.g., legacy, celebrity, donor, equity [they aren't supposed to use affirmative action but there's heated debate over how much factors such as race and gender play a role]), reside in the US in California, state a popular major as your interest (say pre-med), and really want to go to UC Riverside, and want to play soccer in college,  maybe.  The college admissions process is one big game that you have to game, so it boils down to where the individual student is situated.


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## EvilGoalie 21 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Let's get real about where ECNL players go by and large.  Here is a non-Blues non-Surf local ECNL class of 2020 list:
> 
> Grambling State University
> University of Arizona
> ...


I feel you are largely right on this.  But not for the money thing.  Being on the guys side nobody we know was/is thinking atletic scholarship $. That is on the table only for a very small handful, many of whom will be coming from overseas.  But the time budget is exactly right IMO.  You take the time spent doing club soccer and funnel it into a distribution of extracurriculars between the arts and sport and, sure, set up a paper tiger non-profit, get the good grades and the spectrum of schools that a kid will be competitive for increases.  It's really a question of how much does the kid like to play, and, at the end of the day, is it possible to fit the right academic/athletic fit.  That last bit can be challenging.  But for a number of schools on your list up there they will get a good value education that will be a good springboard. So for the athletes who landed those opportunities, good for them. The spreadsheet may not balance, but in the end that is not really the point.

And since the UCs came up, one thing a parent can do to help with how the UC GPA and overall AIS is computed is to make sure the student loads their AP credits into the sophomore and junior year.  AP credit as freshman or senior will not count.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Again, depends on a variety of circumstances.  If you only  have a 3.7 weighted gpa, don't qualify as another preference (e.g., legacy, celebrity, donor, equity [they aren't supposed to use affirmative action but there's heated debate over how much factors such as race and gender play a role]), reside in the US in California, state a popular major as your interest (say pre-med), and really want to go to UC Riverside, and want to play soccer in college,  maybe.  The college admissions process is one big game that you have to game, so it boils down to where the individual student is situated.


You don't think that $36,000 in-pocket and 15 hours towards getting a 3.5 or 3.6 unweighted instead of soccer isn't a better idea?  You would tell this cusp family to spend $36,000 on soccer and have the kid put in 15 hours per week?


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> So, if I paid $100,000 for my kid to be on the team you describe, you would say I didn't overpay?


$100,000 is not the cost of youth soccer. 

A happy child who develops life skills that lead her to a successful adulthood. What is the price of that?


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> I feel you are largely right on this.  But not for the money thing.  Being on the guys side nobody we know was/is thinking atletic scholarship $. That is on the table only for a very small handful, many of whom will be coming from overseas.  But the time budget is exactly right IMO.  You take the time spent doing club soccer and funnel it into a distribution of extracurriculars between the arts and sport and, sure, set up a paper tiger non-profit, get the good grades and the spectrum of schools that a kid will be competitive for increases.  It's really a question of how much does the kid like to play, and, at the end of the day, is it possible to fit the right academic/athletic fit.  That last bit can be challenging.  But for a number of schools on your list up there they will get a good value education that will be a good springboard. So for the athletes who landed those opportunities, good for them. The spreadsheet may not balance, but in the end that is not really the point.
> 
> And since the UCs came up, one thing a parent can do to help with how the UC GPA and overall AIS is computed is to make sure the student loads their AP credits into the sophomore and junior year.  AP credit as freshman or senior will not count.


Right.  I'm not trying to take away from the enjoyment of soccer.  But the original question is really two questions.  One about a waste of time and the other about a waste of money.  How you spend your time can be justified by enjoyment.   But in terms of a value proposition, club soccer is trying to justify its cost in some cases with college access.  It rarely adds up.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> $100,000 is not the cost of youth soccer.
> 
> A happy child who develops life skills that lead her to a successful adulthood. What is the price of that?


But Soccer (sport) has tremendous value that cannot be quantified in dollars.  My team provides a place for your child to be happy and develop life skills that lead to a successful adulthood.    I am inviting your child to the team.  The cost for my team is $100,000.

Or is that too much for your child?  Trust me, you can't get these life skills and happiness for free.  Look at that poor clubless child, with no future.  You don't want that to be your child do you?


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I went to a school like this and had a 3.2 and student aid, got work experience, and didn't have to play soccer.  We are giving too much credit to soccer here.


Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy playing soccer. Geez. The fact that you were clearly not an athlete is why you seem to lack an understanding of the joy of sport. 

Also, not everything is about money to others. Seems it is to you though.


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> But Soccer (sport) has tremendous value that cannot be quantified in dollars.  My team provides a place for your child to be happy and develop life skills that lead to a successful adulthood.    I am inviting your child to the team.  The cost for my team is $100,000.
> 
> Or is that too much for your child?  Trust me, you can't get these life skills and happiness for free.  Look at that poor clubless child, with no future.  You don't want that to be your child do you?


No, I don't. Your sentences are word salad. But, I want a kid who enjoys life, chooses something they are passionate about (soccer in this case) learns life lessons, learns teammwork, makes friends, travels, creates memories. Those are more valuable then sitting in front of their computer for hours on end trying to get slightly better grades. You keep throwing $100,000 around as hyperbole. I am not impressed. You are a money focused person. Spend some. Enjoy life.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy playing soccer. Geez. The fact that you were clearly not an athlete is why you seem to lack an understanding of the joy of sport.
> 
> Also, not everything is about money to others. Seems it is to you though.


I played soccer my whole life.  In fields.  On the street.  In the hallway.  On the bridge.  I just don't remember so many trolls on the bridge trying to charge me for it.  

Just be cause something is invaluable doesn't mean you pay whatever it takes.  Sometimes that means it should always be free.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> No, I don't. Your sentences are word salad. But, I want a kid who enjoys life, chooses something they are passionate about (soccer in this case) learns life lessons, learns teammwork, makes friends, travels, creates memories. Those are more valuable then sitting in front of their computer for hours on end trying to get slightly better grades. You keep throwing $100,000 around as hyperbole. I am not impressed. You are a money focused person. Spend some. Enjoy life.


You are calling your own words a salad.  But we could all eat some salad and be better for it.


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I played soccer my whole life.  In fields.  On the street.  In the hallway.  On the bridge.  I just don't remember so many trolls on the bridge trying to charge me for it.
> 
> Just be cause something is invaluable doesn't mean you pay whatever it takes.  Sometimes that means it should always be free.


This is your sentence: "_I went to a school like this and had a 3.2 and student aid, got work experience, and _*didn't have to play soccer.*"

Like I said, most people who play actually enjoy it.

The cost benefit is worth it to me. If it is not for you, then tell you kid(s) they cannot play anymore. Your choice.


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## GT45 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> You are calling your own words a salad.  But we could all eat some salad and be better for it.


You changed my statement. C'mon. Have an honest conversation here. I am not the one throwing around cost of teams at $100,000.

I am leaving this conversation to spare others from this dialogue. You are obsessed with money. Not my cup of tea.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> This is your sentence: "_I went to a school like this and had a 3.2 and student aid, got work experience, and _*didn't have to play soccer.*"
> 
> Like I said, most people who play actually enjoy it.
> 
> The cost benefit is worth it to me. If it is not for you, then tell you kid(s) they cannot play anymore. Your choice.


So the great thing about college is learning how to make salad with words.

Didn't have to play soccer.
Didn't play soccer.

Which one did I say?


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

GT45 said:


> You changed my statement. C'mon. Have an honest conversation here. I am not the one throwing around cost of teams at $100,000.
> 
> I am leaving this conversation to spare others from this dialogue. You are obsessed with money. Not my cup of tea.


LOL


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> You don't think that $36,000 in-pocket and 15 hours towards getting a 3.5 or 3.6 unweighted instead of soccer isn't a better idea?  You would tell this cusp family to spend $36,000 on soccer and have the kid put in 15 hours per week?


You aren't calculating in sunk costs.  By freshman year, how much has the family already spent on club soccer and where is the kid situated talent wise.  Is the kid a scholarship player (some players I know that play at very high levels have scholarships, then there's also the MLS players on the boys side).  Is the kid capable of raising the grade point average and what's kept it down so far.  Do they love and want to keep playing soccer.  All very situational.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> You aren't calculating in sunk costs.  By freshman year, how much has the family already spent on club soccer and where is the kid situated talent wise.  Is the kid a scholarship player (some players I know that play at very high levels have scholarships, then there's also the MLS players on the boys side).  Is the kid capable of raising the grade point average and what's kept it down so far.  Do they love and want to keep playing soccer.  All very situational.


So, say one of these kids on the team with college options I described.  Kid has a 3.5 GPA.  Kid's time is pushed to the max with soccer and school.  Do you encourage him/her to pull back on soccer (not quit, just less time commitment) and put more time into study or keep at it because of sunk costs?


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## EvilGoalie 21 (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Right.  I'm not trying to take away from the enjoyment of soccer.  But the original question is really two questions.  One about a waste of time and the other about a waste of money.  How you spend your time can be justified by enjoyment.   But in terms of a value proposition, club soccer is trying to justify its cost in some cases with college access.  It rarely adds up.


Given how the conversation has unwound, for what its worth, I don't think you were trying to say enjoyment, all that, is not important.  Having been through the full youth soccer ride, aphorisms and all, I follow what you are saying perfectly.  Way I see it, if a kid is still in it by U19 its because they love the game.  The thing you posted earlier about sometime kids having to choose-academics or sport-that a balance accommodating both can be difficult-rang true for me and is along the lines of what I was trying to say earlier.  Not just difficult-painful. I see this with kids on my son's team.  Choices in schools that should seem exciting, a fruit of labor, if soccer is not also a possibility are viewed almost with resignation.  The one thing I was trying to say was that at the outset I never would have thought of that.


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> So, say one of these kids on the team with college options I described.  Kid has a 3.5 GPA.  Kid's time is pushed to the max with soccer and school.  Do you encourage him/her to pull back on soccer (not quit, just less time commitment) and put more time into study or keep at it because of sunk costs?


Don't know how often I can say it...it's situational.  If they pull back from a higher level team, recruitment might be off the table (it's not happening say in an AYSO united silver team)?  What's holding the kid back in grades (just because the kid puts in the time doesn't mean that they are going to be raised) and how locked in is the gpa at this point?  How wedded are they to UC Riverside and what are the other public/private options?  How are they interested in spending their time in both high school and college?  What else they got going on?  Are they a white, upper middle class girl from Los Angeles California who wants to go pre-med, or a Latino first gen. college guy from the barrio in Phoenix that wants to major in Arabic? 

You seem to be saying it's never worth it, while I'm saying sometimes it is...the better argument is where in between that line is drawn for which there's substantial room for disagreement


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

EvilGoalie 21 said:


> Given how the conversation has unwound, for what its worth, I don't think you were trying to say enjoyment, all that, is not important.  Having been through the full youth soccer ride, aphorisms and all, I follow what you are saying perfectly.  Way I see it, if a kid is still in it by U19 its because they love the game.  The thing you posted earlier about sometime kids having to choose-academics or sport-that a balance accommodating both can be difficult-rang true for me and is along the lines of what I was trying to say earlier.  Not just difficult-painful. I see this with kids on my son's team.  Choices in schools that should seem exciting, a fruit of labor, if soccer is not also a possibility are viewed almost with resignation.  The one thing I was trying to say was that at the outset I never would have thought of that.


Incredibly insightful and articulate.  Thank you.


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## Woodwork (Apr 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Don't know how often I can say it...it's situational.  If they pull back from a higher level team, recruitment might be off the table (it's not happening say in an AYSO united silver team)?  What's holding the kid back in grades (just because the kid puts in the time doesn't mean that they are going to be raised) and how locked in is the gpa at this point?  How wedded are they to UC Riverside and what are the other public/private options?  How are they interested in spending their time in both high school and college?  What else they got going on?  Are they a white, upper middle class girl from Los Angeles California who wants to go pre-med, or a Latino first gen. college guy from the barrio in Phoenix that wants to major in Arabic?
> 
> You seem to be saying it's never worth it, while I'm saying sometimes it is...the better argument is where in between that line is drawn for which there's substantial room for disagreement


I'm not saying it's never worth it, but I would never presume to be able to identify the next Gyasi Zardes.  I can't tell the college soccer aspirants that they will be better off taking any kind of a GPA hit over dialing soccer back by 5 hours a week and attending free after school tutoring in the problem class.  

Maybe I'm old school, but I see applying pressure to do the not-fun thing for a better future as my job as an adult.  Yes, there is some balance, but the balance has to skew academic.  To the extent club soccer improves my kid in various ways, such as discipline, sacrifice, confidence, team-work, that all needs to come together to helping her in her number one job for the next 7-8 years.  If soccer works against that, then it needs to take a back seat.


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## Grace T. (Apr 26, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I'm not saying it's never worth it, but I would never presume to be able to identify the next Gyasi Zardes.  I can't tell the college soccer aspirants that they will be better off taking any kind of a GPA hit over dialing soccer back by 5 hours a week and attending free after school tutoring in the problem class.
> 
> Maybe I'm old school, but I see applying pressure to do the not-fun thing for a better future as my job as an adult.  Yes, there is some balance, but the balance has to skew academic.  To the extent club soccer improves my kid in various ways, such as discipline, sacrifice, confidence, team-work, that all needs to come together to helping her in her number one job for the next 7-8 years.  If soccer works against that, then it needs to take a back seat.


Ok but two sub points: interesting you assume there’s free tutoring in the problem class (for many students in California there isn’t and sometimes it’s subpar such as the honors kids trying to tutor the strugglers….doesn’t make them good teachers). 

second, pre covid at least, grades test scores and school attended were the biggest drivers on the academic track for California public schools. That’s not true of private schools where most also evaluate you on your extracurricular and social skills (one of the biggest mistake some students face applying to elite private schools is they think they need to exclusively on grades and when it comes to the essay or interview question about the most interesting party you attended or what’s your ideal roommate they have nothing to say).


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I've heard $2500 / 6 months. Is that accurate?


I think for the youngers, a good estimate is around $2000 for club fees and another $1000 or so for tournaments, ref fees, uniforms, etc.
$3000 per year seems to be a good total amount to estimate for <u10 and add a little more each year.
All that is before any food and lodging cost if going out of town for tournaments but that's variable per family...

Talking to some parents with older kids on the team, ECNL/ECRL seems to run roughly $5000 but maybe parents with ECNL kids here can chime in there.

I haven't heard what a DA for girls and MLS Next for boys cost.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

crush said:


> Here's my guess.  Strikers will be cheaper on the girls side and more on the boys side.  I spoke to a little stud MLS kid and asked him straight up, "hey bro, ECNL or MLS for boys.  He said said MLS 100% and smiled.  Great kid.  Liverpool is slightly more next season and Blues will charge more.  I used to get a can of beans for $.99 and now a can of beans is $1.49.  Prices will go up like anything and club soccer will go up to play in socal.


Seems like $500 increase for most teams. I've heard around that for big clubs like Strikers, Legends, Pats, Blues. I guess exact increase depends on age group but yea across board increase for most clubs/teams.


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## watfly (Apr 27, 2022)

Is it worth in terms of a financial return (aka scholarship)?  No, its a terrible investment.  It's rare for the kids that play soccer for there to be any form of financial return.  Whether you get services worth $3,000+ is in the eye of the beholder.  If your only interested in a return on your money start a 529 when they are born and put all the money you would have put in to the club sport in the 529.  You'll be able to afford an Ivy League when they're 18.

Of course, there are a million other reasons it may be worth it unrelated to a financial return.

In terms of soccer skills, like I said before, have them play futsal (or small sided games) until at least 10-12 years old.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

watfly said:


> My U15 son has played club soccer since U7.  Dabbled in a few other sports when he was younger, but otherwise was full time competitive soccer with DA and MLS Next.  He was a starter on his MLS Next team and just quit.  Would have liked him to finish out the season but given the circumstances with the 3rd new coach this season there was no point in staying.  He was likely on a trajectory where he could have played college soccer on a scholarship, but we were never planning that as an outcome.  The DOC of the club and an old coach who is now at another club are trying hard to convince him to not quit soccer as they claim he has a bright future.  He's not persuaded at all.  He was never passionate about soccer and played because he was good.  He handles pressure just fine, but doesn't like it.  He felt a lot of pressure from his coaches.  It stopped being fun.
> 
> I think in some ways the term "burnout" is overused.  As you mention, I think other opportunities and interests play a roll in that as well, particularly as kids go to high school.  He will be going next year and plans to play football, basketball and golf, when he is not skating, surfing, snowboarding or hanging with friends.  It takes a different sort of kid to stick with soccer.  I was super bummed when he quit, but just I few weeks later I can say I'm enjoying having my weekends back and I have a new buddy for the slopes.
> 
> One thing I will say about club coaches.  Most are very knowledgeable about soccer, but very few know how to teach, communicate and motivate kids.


Thanks for the insight into the future. I look at my son and think he's a little kid but before I know it, he's gonna want to take my car out and hang out with girls... 

Looking back, high school was so much fun. It really does take a different sort of kid who finds soccer more fun than staying out late on Friday night and not having to worry about waking at 7a to spend the Saturday in Norco. 

Enjoy your soccer parent retirement sir.


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## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I think for the youngers, a good estimate is around $2000 for club fees and another $1000 or so for tournaments, ref fees, uniforms, etc.
> $3000 per year seems to be a good total amount to estimate for <u10 and add a little more each year.
> All that is before any food and lodging cost if going out of town for tournaments but that's variable per family...
> 
> ...


I had two types of friends in the glory days of club soccer.  Those with a lot of extra $$ and those who were struggling to pay the bills every month. It was like two classes of people. Put it on the Credit card is what one of pals had to do for his dd the last 5 years.  She got all her college paid for with good grades and soccer skills this year, but pops sure had to pay a lot of money the last 5 years to get the deal.  I'm trying to get him to come clean with how much the last five years cost him.  The other friend spent about $17K+ a year no problem.  I got in trouble a few years ago because I refused to stay at expensive hotel on the road that was mandated by the club for me to pay so my dd could play and be seen.  I told them no and my kid was on the bench for the weekend.  Doc stayed in a presidential suite and my wife and I stayed at air b & b and got ripped for it by the ruling class.  Insane TMs snitching on me for not paying my fair share and not eating expensive dinners with the other soccer families.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

GT45 said:


> Puberty has a huge impact. I have seen kids who were far and away the superstars at 12 years old. Same core team as seniors in high school, and those top 12 years olds were average at best on the team. The kids on the bench at 12 years old were some of the best players as seniors in HS, and went on to play college soccer. The reason the stars at 12 years old were so successful then is because they hit their peak growth before everyone else. They were bigger and stronger than their peers. The others hit their growth spurts later, and surpassed those players.
> 
> Puberty can also take away a players pace. A once fast player, sometimes loses that speed when puberty hits.


The bigger and faster kids who depended on that at the younger ages also tend to focus less on developing necessary technical skills because they could simply run by kids. The smaller kids got nothing else to lean on so they had to be good with the ball. And if they grow later, they've got superior ball skills and now also able to keep up physically. 

Guess there is always the super athletic kid who is also good with the ball. Can't beat DNA + work ethic.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

crush said:


> I got in trouble a few years ago because I refused to stay at expensive hotel on the road that was mandated by the club for me to pay so my dd could play and be seen.  I told them no and my kid was on the bench for the weekend.  Doc stayed in a presidential suite and my wife and I stayed at air b & b and got ripped for it by the ruling class.  Insane TMs snitching on me for not paying my fair share and not eating expensive dinners with the other soccer families.


How does this work bro? I don't have to go out of state yet cause my kids are in the youngers. But eventually there will be tournaments/games in Vegas or AZ or TX... 

Say I have family, properties, or timeshare in these out of state locations that I can stay in for free... I still have to pay for the team hotel? 
That could easily add up to $1000+ trip. That would piss me off a little... (or a lot)


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 27, 2022)

I have seen different clubs train. They all do rondo. All the same drills. The only reason for club vs AYSO is the level of competition. By age 8, there are zero good players left in AYSO. All the good kids have moved on to clubs.


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## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> How does this work bro? I don't have to go out of state yet cause my kids are in the youngers. But eventually there will be tournaments/games in Vegas or AZ or TX...
> 
> Say I have family, properties, or timeshare in these out of state locations that I can stay in for free... I still have to pay for the team hotel?
> That could easily add up to $1000+ trip. That would piss me off a little... (or a lot)


Pay and stay or no play bro.  If you have a hard core team manager that knows all the gossip and has spies, you will get in trouble for not obeying the rules. They force you to pay so you stay at $179+ hotel a night or no play for your kid.  It's not about winning anymore after 7th grade, it's about paying more and kissing the Docs ass so he can give your child a good recommendation to the coaches on your Childs behalf.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

oh canada said:


> the criteria on who is "good" and who is "not so" are much more identifiable and objective in every other sport, and the time invested vs. improvement rate is much better in every other sport


Haha this is so true. I was trying to get my kid to play golf for this reason. No teammate drama. No drama of a coach favoring one kid over another. Low score wins. No confusion on "who is best" in a tournament because it's so objective in golf. 

Sadly, he'd rather play soccer than golf. 
Not sadly, competitive golf is VERY expensive (way more so than club soccer) so I guess I'm glad??


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## Carlsbad7 (Apr 27, 2022)

crush said:


> Pay and stay or no play bro.  If you have a hard core team manager that knows all the gossip and has spies, you will get in trouble for not obeying the rules. They force you to pay so you stay at $179+ hotel a night or no play for your kid.  It's not about winning anymore after 7th grade, it's about paying more and kissing the Docs ass so he can give your child a good recommendation to the coaches on your Childs behalf.


So true, sadly a bad team manager can hold back a team as much or even worse than a bad coach.

The worst is when the team managers kid isn't performing + they're playing to social game to compensate + trying to bring other players down to their kids level.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> But this whole experience makes me realize that it's better to have the kid do something he likes, you just provide the environment and he does all the work because he wants to.


This is way too level-headed for this forum. 




(Haha jk, good perspective for sure.)


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## Grace T. (Apr 27, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> How does this work bro? I don't have to go out of state yet cause my kids are in the youngers. But eventually there will be tournaments/games in Vegas or AZ or TX...
> 
> Say I have family, properties, or timeshare in these out of state locations that I can stay in for free... I still have to pay for the team hotel?
> That could easily add up to $1000+ trip. That would piss me off a little... (or a lot)


Yes, but what's even worse is that sometimes if you go to Vegas they force you to stay at hotels that you might hate (the Luxor or Circus Circus for me).



Jamisfoes said:


> I have seen different clubs train. They all do rondo. All the same drills. The only reason for club vs AYSO is the level of competition. By age 8, there are zero good players left in AYSO. All the good kids have moved on to clubs.


The question on the rondos isn't whether they do rondos but which (there are many including 1/4 sided and 1/2 sided), with whom and how (e.g., with how much intensity) do they do the rondos.  If the team is spending all it's time doing rondos and they are over 10 years old get out fast (coach does not know what he's doing).  The good AYSO kids don't only move onto club but also other sports, which also are pressuring specialization.  When my niece was going up the ranks it was 12, when the kid was going up the rank it was 10, so if it's 8 now there's been an acceleration.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

zebrafish said:


> I think one needs to define waste.
> 
> Will playing rec soccer at age 10 and under likely slow your kid's developmental progress if they continue after age 10 and desire to play competitive soccer? Yes, likely.
> 
> ...


I should have defined that.

Waste purely in terms of soccer development vs doing something else related to soccer.

So the question of in terms of ball skills, spatial awareness, off the ball movement, soccer IQ, etc, which paths will yield a better soccer player by the time they're 12 years old (or just before puberty):

1) club soccer from 7-12 years old. $3-5000/year. lots of driving all over socal for league games and tournaments. 

2) local futsal program $100/mo. rec or rec+/signature $200-500/year in addition to futsal. maybe play different sport with the time/money "left over" from not having to go to all the club games far away.


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## Jamisfoes (Apr 27, 2022)

> The question on the rondos isn't whether they do rondos but which (there are many including 1/4 sided and 1/2 sided), with whom and how (e.g., with how much intensity) do they do the rondos.  If the team is spending all it's time doing rondos and they are over 10 years old get out fast (coach does not know what he's doing).  The good AYSO kids don't only move onto club but also other sports, which also are pressuring specialization.  When my niece was going up the ranks it was 12, when the kid was going up the rank it was 10, so if it's 8 now there's been an acceleration.


We are in a big AYSO that fielded 16 teams/age group in fall. This spring season is the worst I have seen. So many 8 year olds that can't dribble a straight line.


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## D8958 (Apr 27, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> We are in a big AYSO that fielded 16 teams/age group in fall. This spring season is the worst I have seen. So many 8 year olds that can't dribble a straight line.


Covid, no doubt about it, same kids that went in to fall 2019 as U6 players, that didn't get any soccer for two years, came in to U8 fall 2021 looking like they were still in U6.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Let's imagine 15 hours per week put into math, music, debate, extra credit in school instead of club soccer and the money put into an account.


I can't speak for how much high level math and debate tutors cost... and costs to attend national competitions and all that...

But for music, there will be no money left over to put into an account when compared to soccer... 
Youth music at the highest levels is extremely expensive... (all the private lessons required)


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## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I should have defined that.
> 
> Waste purely in terms of soccer development vs doing something else related to soccer.
> 
> ...


Stay and play local unless the best coach ever emails you to train with the best so you can be your best.  I do believe you get better by being challenged by better players.  I'm just not sure when you should leave local play for bigger play.  I say after 14 but the game for girls after 14 is all about the individual and showcases and traveling, when they should be playing and not on the road so much.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Apr 27, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Yes, but what's even worse is that sometimes if you go to Vegas they force you to stay at hotels that you might hate (the Luxor or Circus Circus for me).


I already know this is going to drive me insane haha. I haven't paid for rooms in Vegas in a decade... If they make me pay for Luxor while my comped room in Bellagio sits empty, I'm going to lose my mind...


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## Dargle (Apr 27, 2022)

watfly said:


> Is it worth in terms of a financial return (aka scholarship)?  No, its a terrible investment.  It's rare for the kids that play soccer for there to be any form of financial return.  Whether you get services worth $3,000+ is in the eye of the beholder.  If your only interested in a return on your money start a 529 when they are born and put all the money you would have put in to the club sport in the 529.  You'll be able to afford an Ivy League when they're 18.
> 
> Of course, there are a million other reasons it may be worth it unrelated to a financial return.


I rarely hear the parents of top boy players talk in terms of financial return, but you hear it a lot on the girls side. That's probably because the chance of getting a little college scholarship money for girls is higher than the chance for boys, even though the numbers rarely pencil out to actually be a good investment.  Bottom line, though, is that youth soccer is an experience no different than any of the thousands of ways parents spend money to give their kids experiences from camps, lessons, birthday parties, and vacations to things like movies, amusement parks, and nice restaurants.  None of them are actually "necessary" and they only provide a ROI in the very general sense of being the building blocks of raising a normal kid to go on to a productive life in society.  Some help the kid develop life skills, some give them information, others just help pass the time more pleasantly.

I tell parents the time to move from AYSO to club is when your kid is passionate about practicing more and getting better, which is no different than saying the time to get cello lessons is not when the kid picks up the cello at school and is immediately decent, but when they practice all the time and want help getting better. The goal is not to get your kid to a point where they will become the next Yo Yo Ma, but to make your kid happy and to help them work to whatever their immediate goal is even if it IS to become the next Yo Yo Ma and you know that's not realistic.  And just like you wouldn't let your kid spent all of their time on something like video games or amusement parks or the movies to the exclusion of their education, sleep, nutrition etc, the parents' role is to make sure they are getting a little balance while helping to nurture their dreams


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## watfly (Apr 27, 2022)

Dargle said:


> I rarely hear the parents of top boy players talk in terms of financial return, but you hear it a lot on the girls side. That's probably because the chance of getting a little college scholarship money for girls is higher than the chance for boys, even though the numbers rarely pencil out to actually be a good investment.  Bottom line, though, is that youth soccer is an experience no different than any of the thousands of ways parents spend money to give their kids experiences from camps, lessons, birthday parties, and vacations to things like movies, amusement parks, and nice restaurants.  None of them are actually "necessary" and they only provide a ROI in the very general sense of being the building blocks of raising a normal kid to go on to a productive life in society.  Some help the kid develop life skills, some give them information, others just help pass the time more pleasantly.
> 
> I tell parents the time to move from AYSO to club is when your kid is passionate about practicing more and getting better, which is no different than saying the time to get cello lessons is not when the kid picks up the cello at school and is immediately decent, but when they practice all the time and want help getting better. The goal is not to get your kid to a point where they will become the next Yo Yo Ma, but to make your kid happy and to help them work to whatever their immediate goal is even if it IS to become the next Yo Yo Ma and you know that's not realistic.  And just like you wouldn't let your kid spent all of their time on something like video games or amusement parks or the movies to the exclusion of their education, sleep, nutrition etc, the parents' role is to make sure they are getting a little balance while helping to nurture their dreams


That is an interesting point in regards to girls and boys.  I definitely hear it more from the parents of girls than boys.  Maybe its because boys parents believe their boys have more opportunities on a professional track.


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## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> I already know this is going to drive me insane haha. I haven't paid for rooms in Vegas in a decade... If they make me pay for Luxor while my comped room in Bellagio sits empty, I'm going to lose my mind...


Just wait bro.  I honestly thought it was a joke at first.  I got so busted and they took it out on my dd play time.  That's why I come on here to complain.  It's worse then paying so your kid can play.  You also have to STFU when you see bad behavior by Doc, who also happens to be best pals with the TM and that's where this can take a turn for the worst.  Double whammy and it can get awful because the Docs and TM share gossip and Doc/Coach get the scoop.  They all agree that pay to play and pay to stay is the way to play.  No play is the only way to force/scare parents if they dont pay and stay, no seen by coaches.  Someone gets a cut on the marked up hotel fees.  Yes, it's cheaper to go through Orbits or timeshare but even that is not allowed.


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## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

watfly said:


> *That is an interesting point in regards to girls and boys.  I definitely hear it more from the parents of girls than boys.  Maybe its because boys parents believe their boys have more opportunities on a professional track.*


100%.  If you ask a boy who can ball what their end games is, they all say they want to go pro and they tell everyone their goal.  On the girls side, if you or parent says, "I want to go pro" you get laughed at from parents and called, "you must be stupid and on meds" and "no money in pro for girls" and just laughed at by dads who want their dd to go to college or their dd is big failure in life.


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## Dargle (Apr 27, 2022)

watfly said:


> That is an interesting point in regards to girls and boys.  I definitely hear it more from the parents of girls than boys.  Maybe its because boys parents believe their boys have more opportunities on a professional track.


I do think there are delusional  parents on the boys' side, but their delusion is that their kid is going to go pro in Mexico if they can just get them down there to train with one of the academies of a LigaMX team.  As with getting a full scholarship to college, it can happen, but not enough to justify huge financial sacrifices.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 27, 2022)

Dargle said:


> None of them are actually "necessary" and they only provide a ROI in the very general sense of being the building blocks of raising a normal kid to go on to a productive life in society.  Some help the kid develop life skills, some give them information, others just help pass the time more pleasantly.


Regardless of the sport or level, one thing is for sure,  kids learn how to balance their workload when they get older if they start young with sports or hobbies.   When kids understand that they cannot miss practice and have to work hard to get playing minutes.  When they understand that the expectation is to work hard at school and sports/arts, they will do very good as they go into college.  Time Management and competitive drive can go a long way in building the future for our kids.


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## jojon (May 31, 2022)

I am new to US youth soccer club scene and this seems to be the right thread to get some opinions on my decision.
My kid is 11yo and have been playing recreational leagues (i9, local county leagues, futsal, camps, ayso, etc.) for 5+ years minus COVID years.
I am looking at clubs at North OC now but get totally confused (Fountain Valley, Anaheim, Irvine, Orange, Santa Ana, etc.):
1) All Flight 3 teams are ready to sign up my kid (no surprise based on reading this forum)
2) Some Flight 2 teams are offering a spot (somewhat surprise but the team does not look very strong).
3) 1 flight 1 team and another Flight 2 team that plan to go to Flight 1 next season also offered a spot.

Even more confusing is the fact that some of these teams belong to the same club/organization. We have "tried out" with 9 teams so far (perhaps 5 different clubs...I lost track).
My Questions:
1) Are there really big skill gaps between Flights? or is it more about team organization/strategy/aggressiveness?
2) I think all of these teams belong to Socal, maybe coast soccer league or other leagues have better level definition?
3) Also confused with the jargon of some coaches/clubs saying about path to higher level like ECNL, MLSnext, Discovery. How many level are there? 8?

Cost wise, I did my math and in the past already spent about $1200 annually for soccer activities, the clubs have been offering $1800-$2400 annual fee (including referee fee and 2 tournaments according to the contract). I think additional $100/month is not bad considering that YMCA after school charge me $500/month for staying at school 2-6pm with no "real" activities.

No aspirations to be pro or getting scholarship but I do think joining competition at an appropriate level of one's skill always beneficial to children's general education. 
I used to play youth soccer in another country, another time but cannot relate with this environment at all, totally overwhelmed.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 31, 2022)

jojon said:


> I am new to US youth soccer club scene and this seems to be the right thread to get some opinions on my decision.
> My kid is 11yo and have been playing recreational leagues (i9, local county leagues, futsal, camps, ayso, etc.) for 5+ years minus COVID years.
> I am looking at clubs at North OC now but get totally confused (Fountain Valley, Anaheim, Irvine, Orange, Santa Ana, etc.):
> 1) All Flight 3 teams are ready to sign up my kid (no surprise based on reading this forum)
> ...


Flight 1 teams tend to play more of a possession game. This is because all the players are equally "good" the only way to win is to play as a team.
Flight 2 teams tend to be more individual effort ='s goals/wins
Flight 3 teams are even more on the scale of individual effort ='s goals/wins

All depends on what you want your kid to be involved with/in.


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## graciesdad (May 31, 2022)

All depends on your situation and your kid. My DD was slow to develop so we did AYSO for 6 years, last two were All-Stars and Xtras. It was playing at a higher level that juiced her to want more. Was recruited to a club team as an 06. Been playing on a 03 club last two years. This has been great for her HS season which she loves.


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## Grace T. (May 31, 2022)

jojon said:


> I am new to US youth soccer club scene and this seems to be the right thread to get some opinions on my decision.
> My kid is 11yo and have been playing recreational leagues (i9, local county leagues, futsal, camps, ayso, etc.) for 5+ years minus COVID years.
> I am looking at clubs at North OC now but get totally confused (Fountain Valley, Anaheim, Irvine, Orange, Santa Ana, etc.):
> 1) All Flight 3 teams are ready to sign up my kid (no surprise based on reading this forum)
> ...


Yes there are huge differences in the flights at the younger ages, but they aren't necessarily skill based.  Don't get me wrong....skills are an important part of the equation and it is likely if you put a flight 1 striker 1v1 against a flight 3 striker they will outdribble them.  But soccer is a team sport and there are other functions.  One big one at the younger ages is the age, size and speed of the players....if you look at the higher flights they just tend to have the bigger and older kids because at the younger ages, an individual player who is fast can make a substantial difference.   A bigger leg is able to whip one passed the keeper while a weaker still forming leg will be blocked. Another is a function of how long the team has been playing together (though you have plenty of coast bronze teams that have been around forever and not advanced).  You see it, for example, at tournaments that have joint brackets between the flights (you can usually...not always...predict the winner based on who is a higher flight) or in coast soccer league (which has pro/rel) where sometimes newly promoted teams struggled in the new brackets (again not always).

The pathways they are talking about is the higher flights that exist as the kids get older.  Because US soccer is so disorganized with competing orgs overseeing it, there's a lot of division instead of one clear path way.  On the boys end MLS Next is the big one (though that exists in two parts too with the true MLS Academies on one end plus a handful of other teams, and the rest of the cannon fodder for the MLS teams on the other), though there's also a split with ENCL which is the other top tier.  The second tier has similar splits with Coast Premiere, EA, Elite 64, and Discovery.  It's still all sorting out.

One of the big decisions you'll have when determining a flight should be not only money, but time.  As you move up the ranks, the kids and families tend to get a little more serious about soccer.  Are you o.k. with putting in the extra practices or extra private trainings which might be expected? Are you o.k. with missing the occassional family holiday to participate in a soccer tournament?  Up the ranks the teams are also more geographically dispersed so are you o.k. with the kid doing homework in the car in the commute?  If your kid is moving up from AYSO and just wants to have fun, a good strong flight 3 team (where the kid isn't getting punished by loss after loss) is just about right.  If your kid is serious maybe moving up a few flights, though it's important if you move up to understand exactly how much play time your player might get relative to the strength of the rest of the team.  Another question to ask yourself is if the coach is all about winning (and will act accordingly to get the win) or if the coach is interested in developing the players (in which case it might cost a victory as the team learns)...it's all a balancing act.


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## Jamisfoes (May 31, 2022)

Socal Soccer League | SOCAL 2021-2022 LEAGUE SCHEDULE
					






					socalsoccerleague.org
				




Here is the socal schedule for last fall. You can see the fields and determine if fight 1 traveling is what you want.


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## crush (May 31, 2022)

jojon said:


> I am new to US youth soccer club scene and this seems to be the right thread to get some opinions on my decision.
> My kid is 11yo and have been playing recreational leagues (i9, local county leagues, futsal, camps, ayso, etc.) for 5+ years minus COVID years.
> I am looking at clubs at North OC now but get totally confused (Fountain Valley, Anaheim, Irvine, Orange, Santa Ana, etc.):
> 1) All Flight 3 teams are ready to sign up my kid (no surprise based on reading this forum)
> ...


Welcome to the forum jojon.  What was soccer like for you as a youth in other country?  I played local AYSO for 7 years and had so much fun.  No travel soccer, just local LB AYSO.  Kids from our city played in a league.  We played one game on Saturday, rain or shine.  Daily Pilot came to our games and did write ups.  Today, I don;t know what to say except to try and find a local team and local coach and go have fun is next to impossible. You have to pay to play. I have been around this youth sport for 11 years and June 5th is my last day and last day on the forum.  My dd is aging out and this weekend was her last club match but she got hurt playing sports in high school again and her youth career is over just like that.  One year at a time is my advice as well.


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## crush (May 31, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Yes there are huge differences in the flights at the younger ages, but they aren't necessarily skill based.  Don't get me wrong....skills are an important part of the equation and it is likely if you put a flight 1 striker 1v1 against a flight 3 striker they will outdribble them.  But soccer is a team sport and there are other functions.  One big one at the younger ages is the age, size and speed of the players....if you look at the higher flights they just tend to have the bigger and older kids because at the younger ages, an individual player who is fast can make a substantial difference.   A bigger leg is able to whip one passed the keeper while a weaker still forming leg will be blocked. Another is a function of how long the team has been playing together (though you have plenty of coast bronze teams that have been around forever and not advanced).  You see it, for example, at tournaments that have joint brackets between the flights (you can usually...not always...predict the winner based on who is a higher flight) or in coast soccer league (which has pro/rel) where sometimes newly promoted teams struggled in the new brackets (again not always).
> 
> The pathways they are talking about is the higher flights that exist as the kids get older.  Because US soccer is so disorganized with competing orgs overseeing it, there's a lot of division instead of one clear path way.  On the boys end MLS Next is the big one (though that exists in two parts too with the true MLS Academies on one end plus a handful of other teams, and the rest of the cannon fodder for the MLS teams on the other), though there's also a split with ENCL which is the other top tier.  The second tier has similar splits with Coast Premiere, EA, Elite 64, and Discovery.  It's still all sorting out.
> 
> One of the big decisions you'll have when determining a flight should be not only money, but time.  As you move up the ranks, the kids and families tend to get a little more serious about soccer.  Are you o.k. with putting in the extra practices or extra private trainings which might be expected? Are you o.k. with missing the occassional family holiday to participate in a soccer tournament?  Up the ranks the teams are also more geographically dispersed so are you o.k. with the kid doing homework in the car in the commute?  If your kid is moving up from AYSO and just wants to have fun, a good strong flight 3 team (where the kid isn't getting punished by loss after loss) is just about right.  If your kid is serious maybe moving up a few flights, though it's important if you move up to understand exactly how much play time your player might get relative to the strength of the rest of the team.  Another question to ask yourself is if the coach is all about winning (and will act accordingly to get the win) or if the coach is interested in developing the players (in which case it might cost a victory as the team learns)...it's all a balancing act.


RV sounds good if your kid moves up the ranks....lol


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## Jar!23 (May 31, 2022)

Regarding size, I was expressing to another soccer parent that my kid has a hard time playing against bigger kids.  Not that he can’t, just that it’s harder.  The bigger kid might be able to knock him off the ball so my kid has scramble to try to get it back or prevent a pass.  Or he might lose in the air challenges.  This parent’s opinion is that size doesn’t and shouldn’t matter and was pressing me to explain more.  Of course, he has a bigger kid.  I’m thinking sure, easy for you to say.  Your kid doesn’t have someone at least 5-7 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier going after him.  He did concede that the top teams seem to be filled with bigger kids and size can mean more attention from coaches and being tracked earlier.


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## crush (May 31, 2022)

Jar!23 said:


> Regarding size, I was expressing to another soccer parent that my kid has a hard time playing against bigger kids.  Not that he can’t, just that it’s harder.  The bigger kid might be able to knock him off the ball so my kid has scramble to try to get it back or prevent a pass.  Or he might lose in the air challenges.  This parent’s opinion is that size doesn’t and shouldn’t matter and was pressing me to explain more.  Of course, he has a bigger kid.  I’m thinking sure, easy for you to say.  Your kid doesn’t have someone at least 5-7 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier going after him.  He did concede that the top teams seem to be filled with bigger kids and size can mean more attention from coaches and being tracked earlier.


It's huge when the kids are younger when each child has different growth patterns.  Size 100% matters.  Some grow early and some grow late.  My little girl grew late and was always the smallest and kicked to the ground or pushed.  Refs were lousy at times making calls when it was obvious the bigger girls would just knock my kid to the grown and get away with it.  It was the only way for big kid to play and if refs don;t call fouls, our small kids are in a disadvantage and can get hurt.  It will even out later when big kid goes to the bench.....lol!  I will say whenever my dd had a good game in the youngers, it was when refs called the game tight and yellow card on hackers on my dd were called quickly.  My dd got fouled all the time


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## jojon (May 31, 2022)

crush said:


> Welcome to the forum jojon.  What was soccer like for you as a youth in other country?  I played local AYSO for 7 years and had so much fun.  No travel soccer, just local LB AYSO.  Kids from our city played in a league.  We played one game on Saturday, rain or shine.  Daily Pilot came to our games and did write ups.  Today, I don;t know what to say except to try and find a local team and local coach and go have fun is next to impossible. You have to pay to play. I have been around this youth sport for 11 years and June 5th is my last day and last day on the forum.  My dd is aging out and this weekend was her last club match but she got hurt playing sports in high school again and her youth career is over just like that.  One year at a time is my advice as well.





Carlsbad7 said:


> Flight 1 teams tend to play more of a possession game. This is because all the players are equally "good" the only way to win is to play as a team.
> Flight 2 teams tend to be more individual effort ='s goals/wins
> Flight 3 teams are even more on the scale of individual effort ='s goals/wins
> 
> All depends on what you want your kid to be involved with/in.


I think you are correct. Flight 1 team appears to be more even. Flight 2 & 3 teams that I saw have players with mixed skill level.
My expectation is for a coach or club to only form a team that consists of everyone at the same level but I guess it is easier said than implemented. It surprises me that it really up to the parents to decide which team to join (I understand it is an exaggeration but in reality there is a chance the best flight 3 player can be better than the worst flight 2 player).


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## jojon (May 31, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Yes there are huge differences in the flights at the younger ages, but they aren't necessarily skill based.  Don't get me wrong....skills are an important part of the equation and it is likely if you put a flight 1 striker 1v1 against a flight 3 striker they will outdribble them.  But soccer is a team sport and there are other functions.  One big one at the younger ages is the age, size and speed of the players....if you look at the higher flights they just tend to have the bigger and older kids because at the younger ages, an individual player who is fast can make a substantial difference.   A bigger leg is able to whip one passed the keeper while a weaker still forming leg will be blocked. Another is a function of how long the team has been playing together (though you have plenty of coast bronze teams that have been around forever and not advanced).  You see it, for example, at tournaments that have joint brackets between the flights (you can usually...not always...predict the winner based on who is a higher flight) or in coast soccer league (which has pro/rel) where sometimes newly promoted teams struggled in the new brackets (again not always).
> 
> The pathways they are talking about is the higher flights that exist as the kids get older.  Because US soccer is so disorganized with competing orgs overseeing it, there's a lot of division instead of one clear path way.  On the boys end MLS Next is the big one (though that exists in two parts too with the true MLS Academies on one end plus a handful of other teams, and the rest of the cannon fodder for the MLS teams on the other), though there's also a split with ENCL which is the other top tier.  The second tier has similar splits with Coast Premiere, EA, Elite 64, and Discovery.  It's still all sorting out.
> 
> One of the big decisions you'll have when determining a flight should be not only money, but time.  As you move up the ranks, the kids and families tend to get a little more serious about soccer.  Are you o.k. with putting in the extra practices or extra private trainings which might be expected? Are you o.k. with missing the occassional family holiday to participate in a soccer tournament?  Up the ranks the teams are also more geographically dispersed so are you o.k. with the kid doing homework in the car in the commute?  If your kid is moving up from AYSO and just wants to have fun, a good strong flight 3 team (where the kid isn't getting punished by loss after loss) is just about right.  If your kid is serious maybe moving up a few flights, though it's important if you move up to understand exactly how much play time your player might get relative to the strength of the rest of the team.  Another question to ask yourself is if the coach is all about winning (and will act accordingly to get the win) or if the coach is interested in developing the players (in which case it might cost a victory as the team learns)...it's all a balancing act.


Thank you for the explanation. Your first paragraph clears some of my confusion when I watch some games. It could be the team, the players, size, etc. There is no one explanation why a team is flight 1 or gold.
Your second paragraph kind of brings more questions. Which one is the official league? Why Can't USSOCCER just approve a league for each tier per geographic region? If private investor wants to create separate league/tournament then it is fine but at least there is one "approved/sanctioned" league like Division 1,2,3 in pro soccer.


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## jojon (May 31, 2022)

crush said:


> Welcome to the forum jojon.  What was soccer like for you as a youth in other country?  I played local AYSO for 7 years and had so much fun.  No travel soccer, just local LB AYSO.  Kids from our city played in a league.  We played one game on Saturday, rain or shine.  Daily Pilot came to our games and did write ups.  Today, I don;t know what to say except to try and find a local team and local coach and go have fun is next to impossible. You have to pay to play. I have been around this youth sport for 11 years and June 5th is my last day and last day on the forum.  My dd is aging out and this weekend was her last club match but she got hurt playing sports in high school again and her youth career is over just like that.  One year at a time is my advice as well.


I live in a big city so there are several clubs/academies. Kids sign up to join clubs to train but there is no guarantee to be part of a team. The clubs usually have first team/second/third team that joins an age group league.
Kids who never got picked to a team eventually quits. They would sometimes play local events (similar to ayso) or school tournaments that are loosely organized.
Big difference is that there is no independent "team/coach". Everyone signs up to a club then the club decides who gets in the team.


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## Grace T. (May 31, 2022)

jojon said:


> Thank you for the explanation. Your first paragraph clears some of my confusion when I watch some games. It could be the team, the players, size, etc. There is no one explanation why a team is flight 1 or gold.
> Your second paragraph kind of brings more questions. Which one is the official league? Why Can't USSOCCER just approve a league for each tier per geographic region? If private investor wants to create separate league/tournament then it is fine but at least there is one "approved/sanctioned" league like Division 1,2,3 in pro soccer.


the European football authorities have declined to press uniformity on us (there might also be legal issues with that in this country too).  To the extent there’s an “official”top tier, on the boys side it is mls because that’s where the pro team academies are

the org split actually begins with the bigger org that first really helped soccer take off: ayso. Ayso has resisted turning over its authority and submitting to the other entities. It’s tried to create its own independent tiered system with ayso United (which plays club) extras, all stars, core and vip, but ayso jealously guards the way it does things, most importantly with its everyone plays philosophy. It was the insistence in the 80s and early 90s that everyone plays in the same tier that led to things spinning off and the great migration into club. Insisting that the future pro (who couldn’t get the ball passed to them and therefore couldn’t develop) and the handicapped kid (who, kids being smart, never got the ball) led to frustration all around so this ad hoc tiered system we have now developed chaotically in response.



jojon said:


> I think you are correct. Flight 1 team appears to be more even. Flight 2 & 3 teams that I saw have players with mixed skill level.
> My expectation is for a coach or club to only form a team that consists of everyone at the same level but I guess it is easier said than implemented. It surprises me that it really up to the parents to decide which team to join (I understand it is an exaggeration but in reality there is a chance the best flight 3 player can be better than the worst flight 2 player).


Soccer is a game about mistakes.  If the teams were evenly matched skill wise and the players well coached on mistakes appropriate to their age, games would normally overwhelming end tied or with a 1 point difference.  You couldn’t have any one team dominate their particular bracket and leagues would be decided by a handful of points.  But instead we have mismatches which happen becomes teams have players that aren’t appropriately placed for their division, or which are used as filler by weaker teams to collect the pay check because they can’t recruit better players.  It’s made worse in leagues with pro/rel because you can only advance if you have players on the team which aren’t well placed and should be playing for higher level teams.  Because soccers governance is divided among various leagues and orgs there’s no way to impose uniformity. If we had one big brother org a way to do it would be to give players rankings and only allow them to play in appropriate tiers or up, but no one (least of all the parents which are the paying customers) would like that.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 1, 2022)

jojon said:


> I think you are correct. Flight 1 team appears to be more even. Flight 2 & 3 teams that I saw have players with mixed skill level.
> My expectation is for a coach or club to only form a team that consists of everyone at the same level but I guess it is easier said than implemented. It surprises me that it really up to the parents to decide which team to join (I understand it is an exaggeration but in reality there is a chance the best flight 3 player can be better than the worst flight 2 player).


Parents intimately involved in their kids level of play (vs the clubs or teams defining) is the rub with American Youth Soccer + actually any youth sport in the US.

I know of multiple situations where parents have just given up on playing the social games needed sometimes to get on or play with XYZ club. If you're new to the situation what you don't see is that there's all kinds of ways exploit the situation. Coaches, Parents, and Clubs are all doing it at the same time. This is why we as a nation can't field a good national team on the mens side. Focus is 60% playing and 40% everything else that goes along with getting on XYZ team to get noticed. In other countries parent influence doesn't exist. Players get thrown into the club meat grinder + talent rises to the top.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

jojon said:


> I think you are correct. Flight 1 team appears to be more even. Flight 2 & 3 teams that I saw have players with mixed skill level.
> My expectation is for a coach or club to only form a team that consists of everyone at the same level but I guess it is easier said than implemented. It surprises me that it really up to the parents to decide which team to join (I understand it is an exaggeration but in reality there is a chance the best flight 3 player can be better than the worst flight 2 player).


It comes down to who the individual evaluator is in the States and that's usually a Docs, a Coach, a Team Manager or some Dads on the team looking for "Impact" player.  "Please come to our Evaluation Tryouts."  We will at this time tell you what flight your kid is at."  The player should not be judged at the "Flight Level" at all.  "Hey dad, well after looking at your player today, she is flight 3 at this time.  We just started a new flight 3 team with the other flight 3 players.  Actually, we also have three flight 2 players coming to this years flight 3 team because they want to win and help our flight three team win league.  Our flight 2 team sucks and we beat them in scrimmages all the time.....lol.  Oh ya, a flight 1 player is also coming.  Shhhhh, don tell the parents because they dont know yet that their player is now flight 3 level."  No one likes to go backwards.  If you tell your dd allowance is now $25 a week from $50, they don;t like that kind of discussion.  I can say 100% parents do not like being told their kid is dropped from the A team to the C team.  Who does this in other parts of the world with soccer?  Plus, if you pay the evaluator for privates and extras, you automictically become flight 2 player, because flight 2 players are willing to go the extra mile to be the best they can be.  If you pay and stay, you will 100% be developed into a flight 1 player. Add high GPA and high SAT and your in like flint   That's what we got all wrong here in the States.  The Academy should only be judged by winning in the flight their club is in and earned from playing on the field, not a board room. Top local players will help the lower flight club promote to top flight, if they have good coaches and by winning and developing their players, not other clubs players.  Legends and Beach were trying to do that but all the ECNL clubs poached their top players when they turned 10 to the top flight league and not necessarily a top flight club, if you know what I mean.  The Promotion or Regulation is a micro of what our country is going through right now.  It's still the Wild West.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 1, 2022)

crush said:


> It comes down to who the individual evaluator is in the States and that's usually a Docs, a Coach, a Team Manager or some Dads on the team looking for "Impact" player.  "Please come to our Evaluation Tryouts."  We will at this time tell you what flight your kid is at."  The player should not be judged at the "Flight Level" at all.  "Hey dad, well after looking at your player today, she is flight 3 at this time.  We just started a new flight 3 team with the other flight 3 players.  Actually, we also have three flight 2 players coming to this years flight 3 team because they want to win and help our flight three team win league.  Our flight 2 team sucks and we beat them in scrimmages all the time.....lol.  Oh ya, a flight 1 player is also coming.  Shhhhh, don tell the parents because they dont know yet that their player is now flight 3 level."  No one likes to go backwards.  If you tell your dd allowance is now $25 a week from $50, they don;t like that kind of discussion.  I can say 100% parents do not like being told their kid is dropped from the A team to the C team.  Who does this in other parts of the world with soccer?  Plus, if you pay the evaluator for privates and extras, you automictically become flight 2 player, because flight 2 players are willing to go the extra mile to be the best they can be.  If you pay and stay, you will 100% be developed into a flight 1 player. Add high GPA and high SAT and your in like flint   That's what we got all wrong here in the States.  The Academy should only be judged by winning in the flight their club is in and earned from playing on the field, not a board room. Top local players will help the lower flight club promote to top flight, if they have good coaches and by winning and developing their players, not other clubs players.  Legends and Beach were trying to do that but all the ECNL clubs poached their top players when they turned 10 to the top flight league and not necessarily a top flight club, if you know what I mean.  The Promotion or Regulation is a micro of what our country is going through right now.  It's still the Wild West.


why did you spend all that time to write a whole essay


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> why did you spend all that time to write a whole essay


I see you just joined.  I do not answer a new avatar unless they PM me.  I am leaving June 5th so PM and I will give you the skinny on why the essay. PM your Q's and I will answer you.  Question for you though.  Why is pay to play good for American Soccer and are you a coach?


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## jojon (Jun 1, 2022)

crush said:


> It comes down to who the individual evaluator is in the States and that's usually a Docs, a Coach, a Team Manager or some Dads on the team looking for "Impact" player.  "Please come to our Evaluation Tryouts."  We will at this time tell you what flight your kid is at."  The player should not be judged at the "Flight Level" at all.  "Hey dad, well after looking at your player today, she is flight 3 at this time.  We just started a new flight 3 team with the other flight 3 players.  Actually, we also have three flight 2 players coming to this years flight 3 team because they want to win and help our flight three team win league.  Our flight 2 team sucks and we beat them in scrimmages all the time.....lol.  Oh ya, a flight 1 player is also coming.  Shhhhh, don tell the parents because they dont know yet that their player is now flight 3 level."  No one likes to go backwards.  If you tell your dd allowance is now $25 a week from $50, they don;t like that kind of discussion.  I can say 100% parents do not like being told their kid is dropped from the A team to the C team.  Who does this in other parts of the world with soccer?  Plus, if you pay the evaluator for privates and extras, you automictically become flight 2 player, because flight 2 players are willing to go the extra mile to be the best they can be.  If you pay and stay, you will 100% be developed into a flight 1 player. Add high GPA and high SAT and your in like flint   That's what we got all wrong here in the States.  The Academy should only be judged by winning in the flight their club is in and earned from playing on the field, not a board room. Top local players will help the lower flight club promote to top flight, if they have good coaches and by winning and developing their players, not other clubs players.  Legends and Beach were trying to do that but all the ECNL clubs poached their top players when they turned 10 to the top flight league and not necessarily a top flight club, if you know what I mean.  The Promotion or Regulation is a micro of what our country is going through right now.  It's still the Wild West.


Wow...it is almost like you are listening in while I was talking to these coaches/managers/club directors. 
Especially this statement below, hearing it a few times already...
 "Hey dad, well after looking at your player today, she is flight 3 at this time.  We just started a new flight 3 team with the other flight 3 players.  Actually, we also have three flight 2 players coming to this years flight 3 team because they want to win and help our flight three team win league.  Our flight 2 team sucks and we beat them in scrimmages all the time..."


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## jojon (Jun 1, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Parents intimately involved in their kids level of play (vs the clubs or teams defining) is the rub with American Youth Soccer + actually any youth sport in the US.
> 
> I know of multiple situations where parents have just given up on playing the social games needed sometimes to get on or play with XYZ club. If you're new to the situation what you don't see is that there's all kinds of ways exploit the situation. Coaches, Parents, and Clubs are all doing it at the same time. This is why we as a nation can't field a good national team on the mens side. Focus is 60% playing and 40% everything else that goes along with getting on XYZ team to get noticed. In other countries parent influence doesn't exist. Players get thrown into the club meat grinder + talent rises to the top.


The more I understand the situation, the more exhausting it feels. Maybe some parents like it this way because competition is less. I barely have time to practice/games and I have a pretty good job with reasonable hours. Most people I know work 50+ hours/week so now I understand why none of their kids play more than weekend softball/soccer/basketball.
It is amazing that US still produces a lot of world class athletes considering all the money and time commitment/investment required from the parents, especially in the beginning.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 1, 2022)

jojon said:


> The more I understand the situation, the more exhausting it feels. Maybe some parents like it this way because competition is less. I barely have time to practice/games and I have a pretty good job with reasonable hours. Most people I know work 50+ hours/week so now I understand why none of their kids play more than weekend softball/soccer/basketball.
> It is amazing that US still produces a lot of world class athletes considering all the money and time commitment/investment required from the parents, especially in the beginning.


What you're describing is why people call soccer a rich kids sport in the US.

General FYI, look into Futsal teams/clubs in your area. Cost is much lower than field soccer and kids love playing.


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## Grace T. (Jun 1, 2022)

jojon said:


> The more I understand the situation, the more exhausting it feels. Maybe some parents like it this way because competition is less. I barely have time to practice/games and I have a pretty good job with reasonable hours. Most people I know work 50+ hours/week so now I understand why none of their kids play more than weekend softball/soccer/basketball.
> It is amazing that US still produces a lot of world class athletes considering all the money and time commitment/investment required from the parents, especially in the beginning.


When you get to the older years/highest levels it becomes a real bear beyond just the money.   Saturday/Sunday games...tournaments on major holiday weekends including Thanksgiving.  Games spread out from Chula Vista to Santa Barbara.  Practices sometimes an hour or more away and multiple days.  That's why it's important to know how much your kid is dedicated (rather than being pushed) to the sport beyond the flight 3/2 ranks.  That's part of the reason why so many drop out as they get older.


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## #girldad (Jun 1, 2022)

Ask yourself first if SOCCER will be the life you have planned out for your child? Then ask your child what he/she wants to become in life?  At less than 10 years old, I don't think they have a clue....It makes no sense putting your child in CLUB for any sport at less than 10 years old. They're going to need to be exposed to other sports. Not only to experience other sports, but to make them a more well rounded athlete in the process.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 1, 2022)

crush said:


> I see you just joined.  I do not answer a new avatar unless they PM me.  I am leaving June 5th so PM and I will give you the skinny on why the essay. PM your Q's and I will answer you.  Question for you though.  Why is pay to play good for American Soccer and are you a coach?


you spend so much of your life on this forum. If your daughter found out that you gossip online about youth soccer I bet she would be laughing


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> you spend so much of your life on this forum. If your daughter found out that you gossip online about youth soccer I bet she would be laughing


What makes you think it's gossip coach?  She is home today recovering from getting hurt playing flag football and stays in her own business and I stay in my own business.  I am the one who pays all the soccer bills so my kid could play.  You didn;t answer my question.  Are you still coaching? Your starting to write like someone who has already used up all his avatars.....lol!  Just come clean and be you.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

#girldad said:


> Ask yourself first if SOCCER will be the life you have planned out for your child? Then ask your child what he/she wants to become in life?  At less than 10 years old, I don't think they have a clue....It makes no sense putting your child in CLUB for any sport at less than 10 years old. They're going to need to be exposed to other sports. Not only to experience other sports, but to make them a more well rounded athlete in the process.


What if your told by director of rec that your kid is too good and making the other kids feel bad and left out?  "Go to club" they told me.  I also tried to get my dd to play basketball and softball and it was always, "no, I want to play soccer and get after game snacks and medals."


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 1, 2022)

yes


crush said:


> What makes you think it's gossip coach?  She is home today recovering from getting hurt playing flag football and stays in her own business and I stay in my own business.  I am the one who pays all the soccer bills so my kid could play.  You didn;t answer my question.  Are you still coaching? Your starting to write like someone who has already used up all his avatars.....lol!  Just come clean and be you.


 yes I am a director at a GA club. You need to take a break from the internet


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> yes
> 
> yes I am a director at a GA club. You need to take a break from the internet


Thanks for being honest Doc.  I can read through the tea leaves.  We need good Docs and because you were honest, it makes you a good Doc.  Do you forbid posting or warn parents about the forum?  I was told by four Docs in Socal that posting is not allowed and they knew my original screen name.  Do you support TMs snitching on parents for posting who were told not to?


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 1, 2022)

Wondering what's better for development for youngers:
1. Play on a lower flight team and play the position you desire. More freedom to roam and dribble.
2. Play a higher flight but play the backfield when the kid wants to score. Expect to play possession and pass and not much dribbling.


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## Emma (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Wondering what's better for development for youngers:
> 1. Play on a lower flight team and play the position you desire. More freedom to roam and dribble.
> 2. Play a higher flight but play the backfield when the kid wants to score. Expect to play possession and pass and not much dribbling.


under 10?  Pick #1

If you're playing soccer to enjoy the game, why play where you don't want to?


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Emma said:


> under 10?  Pick #1
> 
> If you're playing soccer to enjoy the game, why play where you don't want to?





Jamisfoes said:


> Wondering what's better for development for youngers:
> 1. Play on a lower flight team and play the position you desire. More freedom to roam and dribble.
> 2. Play a higher flight but play the backfield when the kid wants to score. Expect to play possession and pass and not much dribbling.


Some kids want to win and some kids don't care.  My kid wants to win and she will play where she is told to play.  The last thing any coach wants to hear is, "My little one plays CM, wink wink." Also, I taught my dd to never tell a coach what position you expect to play and how much play time.  I told her to work hard and the coach will put you where he wants you.  To this day I have never told a coach what position my kid plays.  Each game and coach is unique and I feel soccer coaches should play his players in the spots he deems best for the team to win.  Winning is the best development, moo.  My dd played defense her first two years of club.  Then she was moved to Striker and then wing.  CM and especially the #10 spot seemed to be the most everyone wanted.  She got some good sniffs at the #10 and she did really well but it takes toll on you and you have to be in tip top shape to run all around the field calling for the rock.


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## Grace T. (Jun 1, 2022)

#girldad said:


> Ask yourself first if SOCCER will be the life you have planned out for your child? Then ask your child what he/she wants to become in life?  At less than 10 years old, I don't think they have a clue....It makes no sense putting your child in CLUB for any sport at less than 10 years old. They're going to need to be exposed to other sports. Not only to experience other sports, but to make them a more well rounded athlete in the process.


1. Some kids know early on that's what they want to do.  I tried everything possible to get my kid out of club soccer.  At age 10, he had a coach tell him he had no business playing soccer and no future in it (cut him right after losing a playoff game).  His OT and school counselors even told him to get out.  He had a teammate scream at him once in the middle of a game to go back to AYSO.  Tried to get him into martial arts, tennis, equestrian, swimming, lacrosse and water polo. Wouldn't take but the kid (with a lot of hard work) managed to get competent, and then good and move up the ranks.
2. The incentives in youth sport are all messed up by college recruiting and scholarship.  It's caused an arms race where kids are specializing in sports earlier and earlier because in order to keep up with the others, you have to do your 1000 touches a day.  It used to be just a decade ago that the United Soccer Coaches wouldn't recommend kids go full time goalkeeper til at least age 12.  Reputable goalkeeper coaches wouldn't take them until age 10.  Now days, you see full time goalkeepers at the camps age 7 or 8, and 8 year old keepers expected to perform advanced moves like diving, 1v1 and coming out for crosses when they should be spending their first year of training on learning safety and the how to catch.  As a result, 11 is fairly old now to be jumping into the club soccer scene, at least in SoCal.  It's not just limited to sports BTW.  You see it in honors math (CLC or Kumon anyone?), spelling, the arts, music and dance.
3. If they aren't sure about other sports, it's a great idea to expose them to a bunch of sports before they commit to one.  Unfortunately, even for lower level flight 3/bronze teams, it's a year long commitment making that difficult.  But because of the reality of sports specialization, while in the ideal it might be great to make them well rounded athletes, as far as the colleges are concerned, they don't really care.  They recruit for particular sports and being "well rounded" (in sports or otherwise) only checks a box.  You don't get "credit" if you already play a sport for playing another.  It's sad, but the significance of a "well rounded" athlete is fading in our society.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Some kids know early on that's what they want to do.  I tried everything possible to get my kid out of club soccer.  At age 10, he had a coach tell him he had no business playing soccer and no future in it (cut him right after losing a playoff game).  His OT and school counselors even told him to get out.  He had a teammate scream at him once in the middle of a game to go back to AYSO.  Tried to get him into martial arts, tennis, equestrian, swimming, lacrosse and water polo. Wouldn't take but the kid (with a lot of hard work) managed to get competent, and then good and move up the ranks.


The GK life right there and how mean some people are to GK and their parents.  My poor son GK story is for the ages and I swear the last soccer match of his young life.  It was AYSO U something.  Playoff against the smashing pumpkins.  Very wet damp evening so grass is wet and that makes the soccer ball faster and Skippy when kicked off the grass.  Well his last game was OT and golden goal rules were in play.  My son let a very soft and I mean soft shot skip by him and through his legs we lost.  Holy you know what happened?  He ran off the field and went straight to the car crying and so pissed.  The defense players yelled at him and all the parents just looked at me like it was all my fault.  I took my kid to Thrifty and he totally forgot about it.  I didn;t get in the car and yell at him for not listening to my advice before the match.  I just told him and the family were going to get a triple scoop and he was happy


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 1, 2022)

Emma said:


> under 10?  Pick #1
> 
> If you're playing soccer to enjoy the game, why play where you don't want to?


What I have observed with flight 1 is kids' level are more even. You can have multiple kids that are good enough to play striker/forward. Who ends up getting the position has something to do with team politics and whose parent kiss up to the coach more.


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## espola (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Wondering what's better for development for youngers:
> 1. Play on a lower flight team and play the position you desire. More freedom to roam and dribble.
> 2. Play a higher flight but play the backfield when the kid wants to score. Expect to play possession and pass and not much dribbling.


I have repeated a glib response to this question several times over the years.  The ideal situation for a young developing player is to be the weakest starter.  The player will have to work to keep his starting role and will benefit from exposure to and playing with players better than himself.


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## Emma (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> What I have observed with flight 1 is kids' level are more even. You can have multiple kids that are good enough to play striker/forward. Who ends up getting the position has something to do with team politics and whose parent kiss up to the coach more.


This is not true on most teams. It depends on the coach.  The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker.  Kids have different personalities and like to do different things.  Not all great soccer players make great strikers.  Good coaches know their kids personalities over time and will place them where appropriate for the team and the player's development.  

If your child loves playing a certain position and wants to control that, then play on lower flight.


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 1, 2022)

Emma said:


> This is not true on most teams. It depends on the coach.  The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker.  Kids have different personalities and like to do different things.  Not all great soccer players make great strikers.  Good coaches know their kids personalities over time and will place them where appropriate for the team and the player's development.
> 
> If your child loves playing a certain position and wants to control that, then play on lower flight.


I disagree. Strikers are the most athletic kids. They can play any position and be successful.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> What I have observed with flight 1 is kids' level are more even. You can have multiple kids that are good enough to play striker/forward. Who ends up getting the position has something to do with team politics and whose parent kiss up to the coach more.


Oh boy, that reminds me of story long ago out in Lake Elsinore.  We had three parents who said their kid plays CM or their living to Temecula United.  Coach promised all three parents their kid would play CM.  Back then it was 7 v 7 and just one CM.  Oh God, what a nightmare of a season.  Plus, one of the dads challenged me to a fight in the parking lot after our teams State Cup shellacking.  The coaches love ass kissers and those who turn their cheek, that's all I can say about that.  Pay to play is good for the coach, trust me.....lol


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## Emma (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I disagree. Strikers are the most athletic kids. They can play any position and be successful.


We will have to agree to disagree then.  Messi would not been a great center back or outside back.  Ronaldo wouldn't have been a good 10, but maybe centerback.

You can be the most athletic and be successful at any position, but if you don't have a nose for the goal, then you can't be a striker.  
If you are athletic, have a nose for the goal but make bad decisions when cutting off attackers, then you can't play Center back.  
If you're athletic but not a fantastic passer and see where the runs and spaces are on the whole field, then you're not going to be a great midfielder.

I've seen plenty of fantastic forwards that aren't fantastic as midfielders or center backs.  Can they play it based on their athletic abilities?  Yes.  Are they going to be as good as an athletic person with all the attributes needed for that particular position?  NO. 

On a top team, a few players will be able to play multiple position but not all of them.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Emma said:


> This is not true on most teams. It depends on the coach.  The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker.  Kids have different personalities and like to do different things.  Not all great soccer players make great strikers.  Good coaches know their kids personalities over time and will place them where appropriate for the team and the player's development.
> 
> If your child loves playing a certain position and wants to control that, then play on lower flight.


What flight are you playing in?  I mean, your kid, but you get the point,  Tier 1 Strikers have to play defense and offense all game or they sit on the bench.  Defense is trying to steal the ball from the defenders or GK.  Also fight for the ball when you get it taken from you and not act like that should never happen.  On top of that, YNT coaches will take a top Striker and put them on defense.


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## Emma (Jun 1, 2022)

crush said:


> What flight are you playing in?  I mean, your kid, but you get the point,  Tier 1 Strikers have to play defense and offense all game or they sit on the bench.  Defense is trying to steal the ball from the defenders or GK.  Also fight for the ball when you get it taken from you and not act like that should never happen.  On top of that, YNT coaches will take a top Striker and put them on defense.


We're referring to top teams and your point about YNT is consistent with what I'm saying, a striker on one team may be better suited for a different position on a better team, because someone else has a better nose for the goal.

Defending as a CB is very different than defending as a forward or as a midfielder.  It's more than just fighting to get the ball or pressing- it's reading how the play is likely to unfold and cutting off the angle so a shot is hard to take or easy for the goalie to defend against. It's the ability to command the back line and force everyone to step up when necessary.   It's working with the midfields to cut off all the possible scenarios coming at them.  Not all strikers have this ability.  I know many strikers that couldn't do this if they tried but are phenomenal at finding a way to get the ball behind the net with all their body parts.


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## crush (Jun 1, 2022)

Emma said:


> We're referring to top teams and your point about YNT is consistent with what I'm saying, a striker on one team may be better suited for a different position on a better team, because someone else has a better nose for the goal.
> 
> Defending as a CB is very different than defending as a forward or as a midfielder.  It's more than just fighting to get the ball or pressing- it's reading how the play is likely to unfold and cutting off the angle so a shot is hard to take or easy for the goalie to defend against. It's the ability to command the back line and force everyone to step up when necessary.   It's working with the midfields to cut off all the possible scenarios coming at them.  Not all strikers have this ability.  I know many strikers that couldn't do this if they tried but are phenomenal at finding a way to get the ball behind the net with all their body parts.


Ok, I see your point and I agree 100%.


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## Edouble (Jun 1, 2022)

Jar!23 said:


> Regarding size, I was expressing to another soccer parent that my kid has a hard time playing against bigger kids.  Not that he can’t, just that it’s harder.  The bigger kid might be able to knock him off the ball so my kid has scramble to try to get it back or prevent a pass.  Or he might lose in the air challenges.  This parent’s opinion is that size doesn’t and shouldn’t matter and was pressing me to explain more.  Of course, he has a bigger kid.  I’m thinking sure, easy for you to say.  Your kid doesn’t have someone at least 5-7 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier going after him.  He did concede that the top teams seem to be filled with bigger kids and size can mean more attention from coaches and being tracked earlier.


My son is in the same boat right now, great technical skill but just lacks the size to keep up in flight 1. Even worse is if he makes a few mistakes and loses the ball, he gets benched while other bigger kids in the team have more room for error. He's barely 9 so he also understands he will grow and all he can do is continue to work on his technique. I feel like I'm just paying for club so that he plays against better and bigger players so that it helps him adapt later on. Thankfully we train outside of club and he plays futsal where he excels more in.


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## NorCalDad (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I disagree. Strikers are the most athletic kids. They can play any position and be successful.


Totally different from what I've seen play out.  I've seen a lot of coaches hide players at the 9 because those players don't have the skill necessary to play more complex roles (CB, 8 and 6).  You pretty much just need to run fast and have a reasonable shot.  Now if you're talking false 9 or something more complex, then yeah you need to be more competent.


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 1, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> Totally different from what I've seen play out.  I've seen a lot of coaches hide players at the 9 because those players don't have the skill necessary to play more complex roles (CB, 8 and 6).  You pretty much just need to run fast and have a reasonable shot.  Now if you're talking false 9 or something more complex, then yeah you need to be more competent.


We are talking about starting strikers, not bench player coach put in as a third striker because they can't be trusted in the back field. 
I have a problem with Emma's statement that "The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker." That is not true at all especially in the youngers. Kids who are most athletic and most skilled become strikers. Everyone of them can excel in defense just as well.


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## NorCalDad (Jun 1, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> We are talking about starting strikers, not bench player coach put in as a third striker because they can't be trusted in the back field.
> I have a problem with Emma's statement that "The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker." That is not true at all especially in the youngers. Kids who are most athletic and most skilled become strikers. Everyone of them can excel in defense just as well.


Yeah, that just doesn't align with what I've seen.  I'm mostly talking about youngers for what it's worth.  As they get older, everyone is skilled on the field.   I think this perception is highly dependent on the style of play the kids are playing.  In a more possession based approach you will see some of the most skilled players in the midfield.   If the team plays more directly you probably won't see the same thing.


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## Emma (Jun 2, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> We are talking about starting strikers, not bench player coach put in as a third striker because they can't be trusted in the back field.
> I have a problem with Emma's statement that "The kids with a nose for the goal, and isn't great at defending, will generally be the striker." That is not true at all especially in the youngers. Kids who are most athletic and most skilled become strikers. Everyone of them can excel in defense just as well.


I use the word generally because there are definitely exceptions.   There are a few excellent strikers, but definitely not "all", who are also excellent defenders. 

Soccer is fun because there's more to it than just athleticism.   The biggest, fastest, strongest players don't always end up successful.  There's decision making, calmness, quickness, agility, peripheral vision, planning, communication, grit and hard work.


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

Emma said:


> I use the word generally because there are definitely exceptions.   There are a few excellent strikers, but definitely not "all", who are also excellent defenders.
> 
> Soccer is fun because there's more to it than just athleticism.   The biggest, fastest, strongest players don't always end up successful.  There's decision making, calmness, quickness, agility, peripheral vision, planning, communication, grit and hard work.


I sense some Striker Envy Emma, no?


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## paytoplay (Jun 2, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Parents intimately involved in their kids level of play (vs the clubs or teams defining) is the rub with American Youth Soccer + actually any youth sport in the US.
> 
> I know of multiple situations where parents have just given up on playing the social games needed sometimes to get on or play with XYZ club. If you're new to the situation what you don't see is that there's all kinds of ways exploit the situation. Coaches, Parents, and Clubs are all doing it at the same time. This is why we as a nation can't field a good national team on the mens side. Focus is 60% playing and 40% everything else that goes along with getting on XYZ team to get noticed. In other countries parent influence doesn't exist. Players get thrown into the club meat grinder + talent rises to the top.


Agree with this.

And the original question: if “club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?”

Club is necessary for one reason: that’s where the players are. Not in rec. Not playing (free) pick up ball at the local rec center or loosely organized on the streets and beaches. The players, resources, and time is all locked up in the Pay to Play Club System. And the club is the gatekeeper—no pay, no play. The clubs have hijacked the youth sport in USA.
You can argue what value the clubs bring to developing our youth players, but my opinion is that clubs are a parasite. It’s the players individually, their interaction with each other, and mom and dad’s money buying private training and access that develop the player. It’s unfortunate. There are better systems out there, but this is our hell.


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## espola (Jun 2, 2022)

Emma said:


> I use the word generally because there are definitely exceptions.   There are a few excellent strikers, but definitely not "all", who are also excellent defenders.
> 
> Soccer is fun because there's more to it than just athleticism.   The biggest, fastest, strongest players don't always end up successful.  There's decision making, calmness, quickness, agility, peripheral vision, planning, communication, grit and hard work.


I have seen this from the opposite perspective when I was coaching indoor teams in a league where every player has minimum playing time.  If I had to put in a weak player, I put him up front where he couldn't hurt us.


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## Emma (Jun 2, 2022)

espola said:


> I have seen this from the opposite perspective when I was coaching indoor teams in a league where every player has minimum playing time.  If I had to put in a weak player, I put him up front where he couldn't hurt us.


I've seen a lot of this but a lot of parents think their kid must be excellent if they're playing the 9.  I'm just referring to excellent strikers, not players who can't/won't defend at all or make very bad decisions such as pass back to the goalie when there are 2 very fast forwards pressing the goalie.


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> And the original question: if “club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?”
> 
> ...


You just nailed it!!!!


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

espola said:


> I have seen this from the opposite perspective when I was coaching indoor teams in a league where every player has minimum playing time.  If I had to put in a weak player, I put him up front where he couldn't hurt us.


But was he fast?  Damn you soccer coaches are harsh.  What really happens is the coaches lie ((not all) and they tell the parent they can develop a "weak" player as you call them coach. "If you do privates with me, you will not be weak."  I see what Emma is trying to say.  The slow big players have to play defense and go for jump balls and get hurt.  The fast players like my dd got all the goals and the glory that came with it.  If you had to get a "weak" player in the game like the GDA did with the 25%ters, then you put those players up top.  I get it, trust me and that is what the coaches did now that I think about it.  No "weak" player ever went on defense.


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## Grace T. (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> And the original question: if “club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?”
> 
> ...


Your anger is misplaced.  Club and pay to play is not the villain in all this.  It is just a symptom.   The real problem is the college admissions systems which distorts everything else.  Club soccer is just a business which developed to get players looks and to get players better training opportunities than were offered in the old AYSO system.  From there it's a prisoner's dilemma, because if little Billy is doing club soccer and little Danny is only doing AYSO, little Danny doesn't have the opportunity to get the college looks which may or may not develop in the future, because the college coaches only bother to look at the top tiers.

It's not just limited to soccer because otherwise Kumon, Mathnaseum, and CLC wouldn't exist.  You wouldn't have the band and debate competitive culture.   You wouldn't have cheer camp, band camp and dance camp.  You wouldn't have the Lori Loughlin's of the world cheating on SATs and trying to get fake college commitments.  You wouldn't have all the top students in high school running around trying to make fake charities.  What's worse is its inequitable because it's the upper middle class that has the money to spend on club sports and activities...the rich can always buy a building or use their influence....and the poor don't have the resources to keep up and struggle to even drive to the activities.  It's also why there's the huge drop off in soccer participation.  Because as kids advance in age, for many they realize they don't have the drive or the talent to make the top tier, so they focus their energies on other things as they get older where they can made a splash (even if it's just their social lives).

If you want to change the system, direct your anger to what the colleges have set up.  It bleeds into other aspects of our society, which are directly and indirectly related to the "meritocracy" we built up and the way we built it.


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

espola said:


> I have seen this from the opposite perspective when I was coaching indoor teams in a league where every player has minimum playing time.  If I had to put in a weak player, I put him up front where he couldn't hurt us.


How do you define a "weak" player coach espola?  I can't imagine bringing my son to you for evaluation to make your team but I figure I should ask. Do you look at dad's car he drives and the bumper stickers?  Check Social Media account first to determine who is weak and who is strong player?  My dd had a coach that took her from a Striker to #11 and it made her the player she is today.  She can use her left and I thank him for that.  Yes, she scored less goals but the team won it all.  One Arsenal coach told her coach right in front me, of how impressed he was of how much my dd game changed with playing possession and is now a well rounded stud.  He had no idea I was her dad and I was full of pride.  He walked away and then coach told me how proud he was of my dd accomplishments the last 18 months and she will get what she deserves.  No one did what she did in three years.  No one!!!


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## jojon (Jun 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Your anger is misplaced.  Club and pay to play is not the villain in all this.  It is just a symptom.   The real problem is the college admissions systems which distorts everything else.  Club soccer is just a business which developed to get players looks and to get players better training opportunities than were offered in the old AYSO system.  From there it's a prisoner's dilemma, because if little Billy is doing club soccer and little Danny is only doing AYSO, little Danny doesn't have the opportunity to get the college looks which may or may not develop in the future, because the college coaches only bother to look at the top tiers.
> 
> It's not just limited to soccer because otherwise Kumon, Mathnaseum, and CLC wouldn't exist.  You wouldn't have the band and debate competitive culture.   You wouldn't have cheer camp, band camp and dance camp.  You wouldn't have the Lori Loughlin's of the world cheating on SATs and trying to get fake college commitments.  You wouldn't have all the top students in high school running around trying to make fake charities.  What's worse is its inequitable because it's the upper middle class that has the money to spend on club sports and activities...the rich can always buy a building or use their influence....and the poor don't have the resources to keep up and struggle to even drive to the activities.  It's also why there's the huge drop off in soccer participation.  Because as kids advance in age, for many they realize they don't have the drive or the talent to make the top tier, so they focus their energies on other things as they get older where they can made a splash (even if it's just their social lives).
> 
> If you want to change the system, direct your anger to what the colleges have set up.  It bleeds into other aspects of our society, which are directly and indirectly related to the "meritocracy" we built up and the way we built it.


I see that a lot of parents on this forum is so fixated on college admission. From that perspective, I can see your point. However, I think majority of parents are just trying to maximize their child's potential, whatever it is. 
It is very likely that even if soccer does not exist in college sport, soccer clubs would still exist.


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## jojon (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> And the original question: if “club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?”
> 
> ...


Good argument. All soccer players (who really "can" and "want" to play) join club systems, thus we have no other options. 
I do not see a subsidized, competitive, organized youth sport can exist in this country. If football/basketball/baseball cannot do it, then it is almost impossible for soccer to lead the way.


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## Grace T. (Jun 2, 2022)

jojon said:


> I see that a lot of parents on this forum is so fixated on college admission. From that perspective, I can see your point. However, I think majority of parents are just trying to maximize their child's potential, whatever it is.
> It is very likely that even if soccer does not exist in college sport, soccer clubs would still exist.


We know what would happen because we have a model: Europe.  In Europe colleges offer the bare minimum by way of amenities (since the state often pays for a large chunk of the tuition, the state insists on the colleges being streamlined for costs).  European universities have sports teams, but they are general intramural level competition and done just for fun (not tied into the academic system or admissions).  In Europe, there are general 3 levels of soccer play: the academies which are ruthless in their tracking (and once you are off the academic track, its very difficult to get back on) and develop professional soccer players; a small pay to play system which consists largely of players either cut off the academy track (and trying to get back on) or players trying to make their way onto the academy track; and everyone else plays rec (which, unlike the old AYSO, is tiered in multiple levels).

So yes, if college soccer did not exist, it is likely soccer clubs would exist but like in Europe, the entire operation would be smaller (similar to what we had in the 1970s when only the really exceptional kids would play club soccer).  The problem with "maximize their childs potential" is that once there is a distortion in the system, it impacts everyone, whether they are aiming for college admissions or merely to "maximize their child's potential".  Because once some people take off on intensive specialization, to "maximize potential" you'll have to play the game to keep up, even if the end goal isn't college (which in the end as they get older for a ton of kids turns out just not to be worth it, leading to the drop off in numbers the closer you get to senior year of high school).


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jun 2, 2022)

I thought this thread was done but didn't realize it came back to life. I'm sure others have chimed in already but:



jojon said:


> 1) Are there really big skill gaps between Flights? or is it more about team organization/strategy/aggressiveness?


Others may disagree with me but I think there's a massive gap between flights. Flight 3 I'd say is just above recreational. My kid's team is a decent (but clearly not the best) flight 1 team and they played a couple of flight 2 teams recently and it was 15-1 and 13-2 or something like that. 

A typical flight 1 team is a mix of big fast athletic kids + smaller kids who are really good with the ball vs their peers. 



jojon said:


> 2) I think all of these teams belong to Socal, maybe coast soccer league or other leagues have better level definition?


CSL used to have some excellent teams and maybe they still do but a lot of the CSL teams have recently moved over to SoCal League. SoCal League is far from perfect but in terms of organization, competition, and structure, I don't think there's really an alternative in LA/OC/SD area. 



jojon said:


> 3) Also confused with the jargon of some coaches/clubs saying about path to higher level like ECNL, MLSnext, Discovery. How many level are there? 8?


I wouldn't worry about that too much if first year in club. But basically for girls if you want to play in the highest level of competition, you want to be in ECNL and for boys it's MLSNext. Up for debate and knowing US Soccer structure, this could change by the time I finish typing.



jojon said:


> Cost wise, I did my math and in the past already spent about $1200 annually for soccer activities, the clubs have been offering $1800-$2400 annual fee (including referee fee and 2 tournaments according to the contract). I think additional $100/month is not bad considering that YMCA after school charge me $500/month for staying at school 2-6pm with no "real" activities.


I think $3000 is a good estimate for an annual cost of club at your 11 yo. If you want to be safe, estimate $3500 in your head + possibly hotel/travel if there are out of town tournaments. 



jojon said:


> No aspirations to be pro or getting scholarship but I do think joining competition at an appropriate level of one's skill always beneficial to children's general education.
> I used to play youth soccer in another country, another time but cannot relate with this environment at all, totally overwhelmed.


I bet the other country did it better  
On behalf of all Americans, I apologize for our youth soccer structure. 
And yes I agree, I think playing the appropriate level is beneficial to kids not just soccer or sports wise but mentally.
Good luck and have fun!


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jun 2, 2022)

Jar!23 said:


> This parent’s opinion is that size doesn’t and shouldn’t matter and was pressing me to explain more.  Of course, he has a bigger kid.  I’m thinking sure, easy for you to say.  Your kid doesn’t have someone at least 5-7 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier going after him.  He did concede that the top teams seem to be filled with bigger kids and size can mean more attention from coaches and being tracked earlier.


lol of course size matters for youth.
We aren't talking about prime Barca where Xavi Messi Iniesta carved up defenses like a Thanksgiving turkey. 
For youth and especially pre-puberty, size plays a HUGE role. 
You're just able to win so many more 50/50 balls.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jun 2, 2022)

jojon said:


> Why Can't USSOCCER just approve a league for each tier per geographic region? If private investor wants to create separate league/tournament then it is fine but at least there is one "approved/sanctioned" league like Division 1,2,3 in pro soccer.


One of mysteries of life. 

But as someone great once said, the answer to most pressing questions in life are usually "MONEY".


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

We need some MASA, Make American Soccer Awesome!!!


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jun 2, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> I disagree. Strikers are the most athletic kids. They can play any position and be successful.


I could get along with the first part that they're athletic. Hard disagree with the 2nd part though that they can play any position.
This isn't even possible at the highest pro levels. Benzema wouldn't be able to play a creative midfielder.

And certainly isn't the case at the youth level. It's magnitudes worse if the athletic striker currently depends on size and speed and is told to play center mid and receive the ball and turn and dribble and distribute the ball.

[Edit to say: I'm not saying a talented athletic kid couldn't play any position... I'm sure he or she could if they put in the work since they're already bigger, faster, more athletic vs their peers... But I'm saying if a kid is dominating as a forward because of his physical prowess and drop him into other positions where that's not highlighted as much as the striker position, he might not be as successful]


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (Jun 2, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> You pretty much just need to run fast and have a reasonable shot.


This is it 100% for the youngers in the youth level. 



NorCalDad said:


> Now if you're talking false 9 or something more complex, then yeah you need to be more competent.


Let's not crown any 9 yo strikers in SoCal League as the next Harry Kane


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## jojon (Jun 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> We know what would happen because we have a model: Europe.  In Europe colleges offer the bare minimum by way of amenities (since the state often pays for a large chunk of the tuition, the state insists on the colleges being streamlined for costs).  European universities have sports teams, but they are general intramural level competition and done just for fun (not tied into the academic system or admissions).  In Europe, there are general 3 levels of soccer play: the academies which are ruthless in their tracking (and once you are off the academic track, its very difficult to get back on) and develop professional soccer players; a small pay to play system which consists largely of players either cut off the academy track (and trying to get back on) or players trying to make their way onto the academy track; and everyone else plays rec (which, unlike the old AYSO, is tiered in multiple levels).
> 
> So yes, if college soccer did not exist, it is likely soccer clubs would exist but like in Europe, the entire operation would be smaller (similar to what we had in the 1970s when only the really exceptional kids would play club soccer).  The problem with "maximize their childs potential" is that once there is a distortion in the system, it impacts everyone, whether they are aiming for college admissions or merely to "maximize their child's potential".  Because once some people take off on intensive specialization, to "maximize potential" you'll have to play the game to keep up, even if the end goal isn't college (which in the end as they get older for a ton of kids turns out just not to be worth it, leading to the drop off in numbers the closer you get to senior year of high school).


Right on. Tiered AYSO, this is what we need. Aside from elite athletes, this is what most players (and parents) want. The organization is powerful enough to do it. Hopefully they will do it one day.


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## Grace T. (Jun 2, 2022)

jojon said:


> Right on. Tiered AYSO, this is what we need. Aside from elite athletes, this is what most players (and parents) want. The organization is powerful enough to do it. Hopefully they will do it one day.


They tried.  The first step is they got the handicapable kids their own league, VIP so those kids could play too.  They also have All Stars, Extras and United for kids that want a longer and more advanced system.  I personally love that AYSO made the effort to get tiered and we loved the Extras program.  The issue, though, with United is that AYSO felt it couldn't launch it's own club league to compete with the other club leagues, so AYSO United Teams play club ball with the other teams in club leagues (and do very well in league play because they have a large pool of athletes from which to pick).   The good of that is they can offer a club experience that is generally more affordable than other clubs.  But while AYSO has made an effort to really get volunteer and daddy coaches a good education (and their educational materials are beyond fantastic), the educational materials don't always overcome a culture which is more obsessed with winning than developing soccer skills....the teams I've had experience with have a distinct little league experience and my son's worst soccer experience was with an AYSO United coach (see above).  The issue right now is that AYSO United (because it doesn't have an MLS/ENCL pathway) is cut off from the highest levels of soccer (which are migrating on the boys end to MLS/ENCL on the highest pathway, and EA for the secondary).  AYSO United was one of the driving forces in some areas behind the new Elite 64, but until they have a true integrated tier experience (from MLS Next to VIP) it will be difficult.  And the only way to do that is if they surrender some of their authority to the other US Soccer entities (which they haven't been willing to do because jobs, turf, and philosophy are at stake).  The everyone plays philosophy is also just a plain philosophical block to a truly tiered system (in Spain for example rec has 8 tiers).


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## paytoplay (Jun 2, 2022)

jojon said:


> I see that a lot of parents on this forum is so fixated on college admission. From that perspective, I can see your point. However, I think majority of parents are just trying to maximize their child's potential, whatever it is.
> It is very likely that even if soccer does not exist in college sport, soccer clubs would still exist.


Is college admission competition among parents the reason we have corrupt pay to play soccer? Does it explain the gatekeeping and hijacking by the clubs? I don’t know.
But I have never had a conversation about soccer with my kid that was about using soccer to get into college. I think she plays soccer because she’s competitive, good at it, makes her feel good. And every step of the way, from the playground to rec soccer to club to flight 1, was always her wanting to play with and against good players. Watching heroes like Alex Morgan or Messi on tv compete and succeed is a bigger draw. We’ve not watched any college games. 
When the kid’s team was not on par with her, she wanted to accept the challenge and put in the hard work, and move up to a more competitive team. The kid was trying to set goals and realize potential to the utmost. If we had to pay, we did. We could see she was giving 100%.
I see a lot of top flight teams practicing, doing drills not invented by the club, doing rondo not invented by the club, scrimmaging! Scrimmaging above all else. The actual games are 90 minutes of players competing against other players, there’s no club coach in there sweating with them, no club coach tearing their acl or getting carried off the field. All the hard work is being done by these kids. Tell me again: what does a DOC do? Ten years into this and I’m still not sure.


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## Jar!23 (Jun 2, 2022)

I wonder what the attrition rate for big clubs is compared to AYSO/other rec programs.  Just kids who drop out of the sport, not moving clubs.  In the club where I am at now, they make it clear they have a large pool of youngers with the expectation that many will drop leaving the club with the smaller pool of competitive players.


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## Grace T. (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> Watching heroes like Alex Morgan or Messi on tv compete and succeed is a bigger draw.


Well, that's the other distortion I didn't hit on (blind spot because I have a boy).  It's the "my kid can go pro" or the "my kid can play on the USWNT" distortion.  There's a ton of kids (and parents) who have deluded themselves (not saying it's you or your kid) that they can go pro.  It's more prevalent in the girl's side of things (because on the boy's if you aren't playing in Europe or at a minimum at an MLS Academy or a really small group of other teams, it's very clear that it is not happening), because there's also a safety net (girl scholarships being more plentiful than boys, it can be rationalized, well maybe she'll get a scholarship out of it).  As the kids get older and closer to senior year of high school, more realize they can't be Alex Morgan and there are other activities (including dating) which begin to grab their attention....it's the same as wanting to be a fireman (you eventually grow out of the fantasy) or astronaut growing up (unless you go to one of the academies and then specialize in aviation, it's unlikely you'll be in the space program as part of the command path).

The reason you need a DOC is because you need someone to administer the mess.  They got to deal with everything from hiring coaches, to making sure those coaches have those licenses and trainings, to complaints from parents the team is losing too much, to more serious complaints like sexual harassment.  They may or may not do a good job, but as the old expression goes, you get what you pay for.  Europe has academies which are in the business of developing and then selling professional players which is how they fund their system.  Their rec programs are managed by a combination of volunteer and paid staff, but the equivalent of the DOC is usually one of the few paid positions.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 2, 2022)

crush said:


> Thanks for being honest Doc.  I can read through the tea leaves.  We need good Docs and because you were honest, it makes you a good Doc.  Do you forbid posting or warn parents about the forum?  I was told by four Docs in Socal that posting is not allowed and they knew my original screen name.  Do you support TMs snitching on parents for posting who were told not to?


yes. we ban any child that has a parent constantly on an online forum talking about youth soccer.


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## paytoplay (Jun 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The reason you need a DOC is because you need someone to administer the mess.  They got to deal with everything from hiring coaches, to…


…accepting the bribes, threatening the parents, blackballing certain players.


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## graciesdad (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplay said:


> …accepting the bribes, threatening the parents, blackballing certain players.


"Snap"


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> yes. we ban any child that has a parent constantly on an online forum talking about youth soccer.


The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other.  I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club.  I said no way and  I was wrong.  Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive.  Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.


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## NorCalDad (Jun 2, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> This is it 100% for the youngers in the youth level.
> 
> Let's not crown any 9 yo strikers in SoCal League as the next Harry Kane


  (fair enough -- but I was thinking U11/U12 for the more advanced stuff).  

Really depends on the coaching.  I've seen some coaches do some really amazing work tactically/cognitively with younger players.  Playing directly (without knowing possession) and placing bigger, faster, stronger kids on a team is the easy way out.  It takes a lot of work to do more than that and generally you have to sacrifice results to do so.  A proper club/coach will focus on development, not results, for the youngers.  These coaches aren't paid enough in my book.

Twitter has some really great content in this regard.  Check out Michael Carroll's tweets: https://twitter.com/TexasCoachMike.  He's an example of a coach that can bring out the best in younger players (mentally and physically), at least when looking at his video clips.  It's really great to see.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 2, 2022)

crush said:


> The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other.  I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club.  I said no way and  I was wrong.  Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive.  Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.


take some time off the computer. You talk like you've never interacted with real people before.  I mean you literally respond within an hour which shows how you are in front of a screen all day long


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 2, 2022)

crush said:


> The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other.  I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club.  I said no way and  I was wrong.  Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive.  Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.


now you are trying to pretend like you aren't glued to your computer. Your online again shocker


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> take some time off the computer. You talk like you've never interacted with real people before.  I mean you literally respond within an hour which shows how you are in front of a screen all day long


I get a "Bing" on my special smart phone.   Every time I get a PM or a post about me or directed at me my smart phone lights up.  I have a side hustle you no nothing about.  Most of my action is with PMs.  You have no idea.  I can do five things all at once too so just relax.  You should be at practice over seeing your coaches and not posting here, moo.  Are you sure you're Doc of a GA Club?  If that is a lie?  Socal GA Doc? The GA would not appreciate someone being a poser.  You sound like a control freak. Telling your players, "hey girls, if any of your parents spend too much time online , especially on the online socal soccer forum and they post within one hour of a post, then I will kick you off my team.  If that happens, you will never get to play soccer again unless you tell your old man to "STFU."  Why would you do that and be so afraid of a parent posting on soccer forum?  Honest question coach?  My dd advice to the underclassman at her High School is epic,  "Have fun, It's not that serious."  Doc, you need to worry about your GA Club and not engage a crazy parent here. 3 more days and I am out of here and flying away for good.


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## crush (Jun 2, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> now you are trying to pretend like you aren't glued to your computer. Your online again shocker


When do you coach the coaches Doc?


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

*Pay to be coached is good, pay to play sucks!!!

*


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> I get a "Bing" on my special smart phone.   Every time I get a PM or a post about me or directed at me my smart phone lights up.  I have a side hustle you no nothing about.  Most of my action is with PMs.  You have no idea.  I can do five things all at once too so just relax.  You should be at practice over seeing your coaches and not posting here, moo.  Are you sure you're Doc of a GA Club?  If that is a lie?  Socal GA Doc? The GA would not appreciate someone being a poser.  You sound like a control freak. Telling your players, "hey girls, if any of your parents spend too much time online , especially on the online socal soccer forum and they post within one hour of a post, then I will kick you off my team.  If that happens, you will never get to play soccer again unless you tell your old man to "STFU."  Why would you do that and be so afraid of a parent posting on soccer forum?  Honest question coach?  My dd advice to the underclassman at her High School is epic,  "Have fun, It's not that serious."  Doc, you need to worry about your GA Club and not engage a crazy parent here. 3 more days and I am out of here and flying away for good.


you are a bum . period. so your addicted to your smartphone.
edit. and your online now as I post this comment. LOL what a addict


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> *Pay to be coached is good, pay to play sucks!!!
> 
> View attachment 13775*


pay to play is necessary. how do you expect coaches to get paid and clubs to make money?


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> *you are a bum* . *period. *


Thank you Doc of a GA Club.


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> *pay to play is necessary. how do you expect coaches to get paid and clubs to make money?*


Pay to coach, not pay to play.  WTF charges people to PLAY a sport for kids?


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> Pay to coach, not pay to play.  WTF charges people to PLAY a sport for kids?


you are just like a dumb socialist. who do you think is going to fund youth soccer clubs? there is a reason why most clubs are non-profit. youth soccer isn't a profitable thing.


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> you are just like a dumb socialist. who do you think is going to fund youth soccer clubs? there is a reason why most clubs are non-profit. youth soccer isn't a profitable thing.


I know a Doc who makes well over $250,000 a year at his non-profit.  This includes privates and consulting fees.  Non-Profit only means their is no profit to share.  No, you spend all the money each year to show a non-Profit.  I'm good with Directors making good money if they do a good job.  If they lie, bribe and then blackmail a dad to STFU or else, then no pay is deserved and someone else who cares for the girls can be the Director.  Thanks for calling me a Bum, a Dumb and a Socialist.   I have been called other things but never these three in a row and never have I been accused of being a Socialist.  I must have hit a nerve with you coach.  I'm just a dad who told a few dads & docs a few years ago that they will not get away with their lies, yelling and screaming at little girls and telling them all sorts of BS.  I did my time and now on Sunday I get to be free.  I will not miss the Docs or the TMs.  June 5th is big forgiveness day.  You think the last four years has been all peachy with these people?  You know the customer very well and you know what they want.  I forgive you and will look to spend my time helping my wife's parents and then go help the poor and those in need.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

I love to make parents pay 4k a year so I can save up for a new car. How else am I supposed to make money. This is a job. And you wouldn't have soccer clubs available for your puny daughter in if it was free. High school soccer is an option then.


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I love to make parents pay 4k a year so I can save up for a new car. How else am I supposed to make money. This is a job. And you wouldn't have soccer clubs available for your puny daughter in if it was free. High school soccer is an option then.


Golden Gate, is that you in disagrees again?  I never said free soccer by the way, paytoplayisgood.  I think paying someone like you or others like you to get my kid play time and college deals is my issue.  I paid good people money to coach my dd at Arsenal, Legends, Blues, Surf and Strikers.  Sometimes it was free but most of the time I paid for a coach.  The GDA brought the "pay to play" and Pay more at my privates" to play more than the other players because you paid more.  The more you pay, the more you get play time with some Docs.  I will say overall, I got what I paid for and I am very happy.  I only had issues really with two Docs, that is the truth.  Some coaches yelled but that's an easy fix if someone is willing to listen to females and ask if they like being yelled at or coached and taught with respect.  You should do a survey with your GA Club.  A Director of a girls program calling a little girl "puny."  Why, what mean words you have.  My, what lies you have."  Yes, others kind of lied with a little bit of this and that but not big lies like the two and those liars also came with threats after I exposed them.  You actually are starting to act like one of the one's I dealt with.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> I know a Doc who makes well over $250,000 a year at his non-profit.  This includes privates and consulting fees.  Non-Profit only means their is no profit to share.  No, you spend all the money each year to show a non-Profit.  I'm good with Directors making good money if they do a good job.  If they lie, bribe and then blackmail a dad to STFU or else, then no pay is deserved and someone else who cares for the girls can be the Director.  Thanks for calling me a Bum, a Dumb and a Socialist.   I have been called other things but never these three in a row and never have I been accused of being a Socialist.  I must have hit a nerve with you coach.  I'm just a dad who told a few dads & docs a few years ago that they will not get away with their lies, yelling and screaming at little girls and telling them all sorts of BS.  I did my time and now on Sunday I get to be free.  I will not miss the Docs or the TMs.  June 5th is big forgiveness day.  You think the last four years has been all peachy with these people?  You know the customer very well and you know what they want.  I forgive you and will look to spend my time helping my wife's parents and then go help the poor and those in need.


Most Club directors make 250k+via the "Non Profits" they've setup.

I know of one that makes 250k+ never shows up for club events + has a second job as "VP of Relations" at different club.


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Most Club directors make 250k+via the "Non Profits" they've setup.
> 
> I know of one that makes 250k+ never shows up for club events + has a second job as "VP of Relations" at different club.


Double dip Doc


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> Golden Gate, is that you in disagrees again?  I never said free soccer by the way, paytoplayisgood.  I think paying someone like you or others like you to get my kid play time and college deals is my issue.  I paid good people money to coach my dd at Arsenal, Legends, Blues, Surf and Strikers.  Sometimes it was free but most of the time I paid for a coach.  The GDA brought the "pay to play" and Pay more at my privates" to play more than the other players because you paid more.  The more you pay, the more you get play time with some Docs.  I will say overall, I got what I paid for and I am very happy.  I only had issues really with two Docs, that is the truth.  Some coaches yelled but that's an easy fix if someone is willing to listen to females and ask if they like being yelled at or coached and taught with respect.  You should do a survey with your GA Club.  A Director of a girls program calling a little girl "puny."  Why, what mean words you have.  My, what lies you have."  Yes, others kind of lied with a little bit of this and that but not big lies like the two and those liars also came with threats after I exposed them.  You actually are starting to act like one of the one's I dealt with.


Crush, just ignore golden gate. I actually enjoy your inputs, dry humor and sarcasm. I hope u keep contributing to this forum after your daughter ages out. 
I know there are still honest clubs around. Care to share which ones you think are honest?


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Crush, just ignore golden gate. I actually enjoy your inputs, dry humor and sarcasm. I hope u keep contributing to this forum after your daughter ages out.
> I know there are still honest clubs around. Care to share which ones you think are honest?


PM me after June 5th and I will share more.  Best advice: Find a good coach at a club and take it one day at a time.  I think dealing with Docs is not my cup of Tea so you might want to talk with others. Maybe others on here can help how to navigate pay to play.  The Docs got hired years ago to take something small to something big and boy did they.  They took club soccer from one flight to four flights and leagues everywhere and everyone can be Elite now if you pay to play.  That is what I'm trying to say.  Some even pay with their conscious and have to go to bed knowing their dd played over the other kids because they paid more to see their kids play.  You need to find a coach who charges for coaching only and not play time or "extra privates" to show how much your willing to pay along the way.  This is where my big rub comes from and I piss off the Docs making all the money.  Plus many of them manipulate young females and not so smart parents like me and I don;t like that.  Listen to this Doc and read what he is saying.  "You better pay minimum of $4,000 dumb dumb dad because paying to play is good for me.  Pay more, and I will hook you up with play time and deals on the other side.  I am the way and all things come through me.  If you try to leave as a 15 or 16 year old for a safer place, then I email the colleges coaches and say I can;t recommend this player anymore because their not willing to pay what it takes to play at the next level."  Something like that.


----------



## MR.D (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> PM me after June 5th and I will share more.  Best advice: Find a good coach at a club and take it one day at a time.  I think dealing with Docs is not my cup of Tea so you might want to talk with others. Maybe others on here can help how to navigate pay to play.  The Docs got hired years ago to take something small to something big and boy did they.  They took club soccer from one flight to four flights and leagues everywhere and everyone can be Elite now if you pay to play.  That is what I'm trying to say.  Some even pay with their conscious and have to go to bed knowing their dd played over the other kids because they paid more to see their kids play.  You need to find a coach who charges for coaching only and not play time or "extra privates" to show how much your willing to pay along the way.  This is where my big rub comes from and I piss off the Docs making all the money.  Plus many of them manipulate young females and not so smart parents like me and I don;t like that.  Listen to this Doc and read what he is saying.  "You better pay minimum of $4,000 dumb dumb dad because paying to play is good for me.  Pay more, and I will hook you up with play time and deals on the other side.  I am the way and all things come through me.  If you try to leave as a 15 or 16 year old for a safer place, then I email the colleges coaches and say I can;t recommend this player anymore because their not willing to pay what it takes to play at the next level."  Something like that.


lol, Yep, that sounds about right.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> PM me after June 5th and I will share more.  Best advice: Find a good coach at a club and take it one day at a time.  I think dealing with Docs is not my cup of Tea so you might want to talk with others. Maybe others on here can help how to navigate pay to play.  The Docs got hired years ago to take something small to something big and boy did they.  They took club soccer from one flight to four flights and leagues everywhere and everyone can be Elite now if you pay to play.  That is what I'm trying to say.  Some even pay with their conscious and have to go to bed knowing their dd played over the other kids because they paid more to see their kids play.  You need to find a coach who charges for coaching only and not play time or "extra privates" to show how much your willing to pay along the way.  This is where my big rub comes from and I piss off the Docs making all the money.  Plus many of them manipulate young females and not so smart parents like me and I don;t like that.  Listen to this Doc and read what he is saying.  "You better pay minimum of $4,000 dumb dumb dad because paying to play is good for me.  Pay more, and I will hook you up with play time and deals on the other side.  I am the way and all things come through me.  If you try to leave as a 15 or 16 year old for a safer place, then I email the colleges coaches and say I can;t recommend this player anymore because their not willing to pay what it takes to play at the next level."  Something like that.


 lol trying to ip ban me. crush every time I check this site you are online. What are you doing with your free time. Probably should spend time with your daughter instead of wasting your life on a soccer forum


----------



## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> lol trying to ip ban me. crush every time I check this site you are online. What are you doing with your free time. Probably should spend time with your daughter instead of wasting your life on a soccer forum


Chilling at the beach with my wife. I work from my smart phone.  It makes me a living and I am so grateful.  My dd just had her last day of school and its time for her to celebrate. We will talk tomorrow for dad and dd bagel shack.  I feel like a successful father. The 2022s had it hard Doc and I will be gone posting publicy after Jume 5th.  I got so many PMs of love today and 95% are positve. 4 years ago, 95% was hate filled with assholes treatening me and telling me ti SFTU or else. You want $4,000 from a single mom who makes $80,000 a year.  Thats 5% of her income.  Plus privates for play time. Bring the price down coach


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

Aliso Beach right now coach of paytoplayisgood for me, the Doc.  My phone is so smart it takes pictures, keeps all texts ans emails from the last 6 years and allows me to work from anywhere, like the beach.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> Chilling at the beach with my wife. I work from my smart phone.  It makes me a living and I am so grateful.  My dd just had her last day of school and its time for her to celebrate. We will talk tomorrow for dad and dd bagel shack.  I feel like a successful father. The 2022s had it hard Doc and I will be gone posting publicy after Jume 5th.  I got so many PMs of love today and 95% are positve. 4 years ago, 95% was hate filled with assholes treatening me and telling me ti SFTU or else. You want $4,000 from a single mom who makes $80,000 a year.  Thats 5% of her income.  Plus privates for play time. Bring the price down coach


 I need money. im actually considering raising our club fees as the parents will still pay to be on our club. DPL fees will go up by 500. ga fees will go up by 1k most likely. Non ga dpl fees will go up 300 dollars. why would you be on your phone at the beach?


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> *I need money*.


Yes, I understand you need money.  $4,000 a year to join your team, right?  How much do you charge for privates?  My phone is my office.  It follows me everywhere.  It pings me a certain song when I get a PM.  I love PMs and the information I'm getting is worth gold.  Trust me, no one wants to deal with Docs like you.


----------



## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> Yes, I understand you need money.  $4,000 a year to join your team, right?  How much do you charge for privates?  My phone is my office.  It follows me everywhere.  It pings me a certain song when I get a PM.  I love PMs and the information I'm getting is worth gold.  Trust me, no one wants to deal with Docs like you.


I have 4 parents currently that have paid 6500 a year for a guarantee of their daughter starting minimum half of the games


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## crush (Jun 3, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> I have 4 parents currently that have paid 6500 a year for a guarantee of their daughter starting minimum half of the games


Fair enough.  Thanks for being honest.  I heard about some parents willing to pay a premium for premium starts.  What about guarantee position, is that extra?


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 3, 2022)

crush said:


> Fair enough.  Thanks for being honest.  I heard about some parents willing to pay a premium for premium starts.  What about guarantee position, is that extra?


there was 1 girl who wasn't very good in a younger age group that the parents offered to pay more for a spot on the ga team but I rejected it since word got out to the other parents.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 4, 2022)

I cant decide if payforplayisgood is for real or some parent trolling everyone.

If real they're ethically corrupt + shouldn't be around children / youth sports. Pay for play is bad enough but everytime you accept a bribe for playtime or position one undeserving player is promoted and one deserving player is demoted.

This is exactly why a country the size of the US cant get a USMNT together to beat tiny often 3rd world countries.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I cant decide if payforplayisgood is for real or some parent trolling everyone.
> 
> If real they're ethically corrupt + shouldn't be around children / youth sports. Pay for play is bad enough but everytime you accept a bribe for playtime or position one undeserving player is promoted and one deserving player is demoted.
> 
> This is exactly why a country the size of the US cant get a USMNT together to beat tiny often 3rd world countries.


He sounds real and sounds like a Doc I dealt with.  Not American in "moo." That's what "pay to play" means in DA States.  I lived it and watched it before me very eyes.  That's why they call me a "bum", "dumb dumb", "full of bullshit" "on meds" "talks in the third person" "had multiple avatars" "Coo Coo" "go spend more time with your 18 year old dd who is flying out of my nest".  I can go on and on.  This paytoplayisgood Doc has no kids and is clueless. What he should say is, "go spend more time with your wife."  That would make more sense and I would agree and that is a big reason I'm leaving.  Plus both of her parents have Alzheimer's and it only gets worse and they need our help and help is on the way.  I had one Doc test my dd and her ethics with the US Training Center.  He picked the wrong girl and family to pull some monkey business.  Look, I am the most competitive dude around.  I'm so competitive and old school, I have to win fair and square or lose and learn the right way.  I think paying to be on the team and paying extra to get minutes and paying to start 25% of the best of the best games with the best players ever assembled in a league is what the rich are all about.  Plus, if you donate to the club, buy a thousand golf balls, go to all the camps and do privates, then you to will be developed as a "pay to play" player I should be able to express my dislike about the "pay to be on the team" "pay to play" "pay to play more" "pay even more and get?"  Look, not every Doc collects money like this to make his living or play in the game he coaches, but that is so messed up for the other kids.  I had a dad tell me about this and I saw with my own eyes.


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## espola (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I cant decide if payforplayisgood is for real or some parent trolling everyone.
> 
> If real they're ethically corrupt + shouldn't be around children / youth sports. Pay for play is bad enough but everytime you accept a bribe for playtime or position one undeserving player is promoted and one deserving player is demoted.
> 
> This is exactly why a country the size of the US cant get a USMNT together to beat tiny often 3rd world countries.


The account was created last Sunday.  There have been 14 messages posted from that account, all in this thread.

I suspect a troll.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

espola said:


> The account was created last Sunday.  There have been 14 messages posted from that account, all in this thread.
> 
> *I suspect a troll.*


Nice try Coach....lol


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Back to the OP.  Paying a great coach and playing on a team is not a waste of time or money, regardless of age.  9-13 is prime time for girls.  its the best time for girls to play.  Paying the coach some side hustle and kissing his ass all season is what has must of us in a hissy.  We all see it and it's called cheating where I come from or paying a middleman to cheat on behalf of your child.  Look, we all get lucky sometimes but this pay to play, pay and stay so you can play and pay extra to play in the game is for the birds and is actually teaching our kids that it if you pay enough, you can play.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> there was 1 girl who wasn't very good in a younger age group that the parents offered to pay more for a spot on the ga team but I rejected it since word got out to the other parents.


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## Larzby (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I cant decide if payforplayisgood is for real or some parent trolling everyone.
> 
> If real they're ethically corrupt + shouldn't be around children / youth sports. Pay for play is bad enough but everytime you accept a bribe for playtime or position one undeserving player is promoted and one deserving player is demoted.
> 
> This is exactly why a country the size of the US cant get a USMNT together to beat tiny often 3rd world countries.


Definitely a troll and definitely the same person as has been trolling under different account names since I've been on this site.  Just click on his/her name and then click "ignore"  It works like a charm. Life is too short.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 4, 2022)

crush said:


> He sounds real and sounds like a Doc I dealt with.  Not American in "moo." That's what "pay to play" means in DA States.  I lived it and watched it before me very eyes.  That's why they call me a "bum", "dumb dumb", "full of bullshit" "on meds" "talks in the third person" "had multiple avatars" "Coo Coo" "go spend more time with your 18 year old dd who is flying out of my nest".  I can go on and on.  This paytoplayisgood Doc has no kids and is clueless. What he should say is, "go spend more time with your wife."  That would make more sense and I would agree and that is a big reason I'm leaving.  Plus both of her parents have Alzheimer's and it only gets worse and they need our help and help is on the way.  I had one Doc test my dd and her ethics with the US Training Center.  He picked the wrong girl and family to pull some monkey business.  Look, I am the most competitive dude around.  I'm so competitive and old school, I have to win fair and square or lose and learn the right way.  I think paying to be on the team and paying extra to get minutes and paying to start 25% of the best of the best games with the best players ever assembled in a league is what the rich are all about.  Plus, if you donate to the club, buy a thousand golf balls, go to all the camps and do privates, then you to will be developed as a "pay to play" player I should be able to express my dislike about the "pay to be on the team" "pay to play" "pay to play more" "pay even more and get?"  Look, not every Doc collects money like this to make his living or play in the game he coaches, but that is so messed up for the other kids.  I had a dad tell me about this and I saw with my own eyes.


I just don't get the concept that joining a soccer club must be free. Like how do you expect coaches to get paid, field rentals, league fees, ref fees, etc to get done? Youth soccer must have a cost in order to participate. If you are good enough, you can have a chance at getting aid. in my daughters team, one girl is a standout and comes from a low income so we give them cheaper fee to play. Otherwise she will leave and go to some local weaker team.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> *I just don't get the concept that joining a soccer club must be free.* Like how do you expect coaches to get paid, field rentals, league fees, ref fees, etc to get done? Youth soccer must have a cost in order to participate. If you are good enough, you can have a chance at getting aid. in *my daughters team*, one girl is a standout and comes from a low income so we give them cheaper fee to play. Otherwise she will leave and go to some local weaker team.


Doc with kid? No one said free soccer is good for the Doc.  Yes, crush said soccer should be free for little kids but coach will get paid in other ways or by others, not the poor parents.  When you take your play to the next level, look to pay a good coach good pay for good coaching, not bribes to get minutes, the position of your choice and then more goodies if you pay and play the right way.  Money talks in this sport.  Paying a coach to play is not good.  Pay coach to learn the game= good.  Pay to play in the game and pay extra is naughty and opens up to naughtier behavior after hours.  You did see the Movie Forrest Gump?  Remember what Miss Gump had to do to get Forrest into school?  I do know a few Docs looking for more than money for play time.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Crush Coaches Reviews

I only came back to the forum to talk with the Docs because they wouldn't want to all meet to clear things up, moo.  The Docs are always here you guys.  I hope everyone can figure that out by now.  We do need a good "Yelp 4 Coaches." and "Yelp for Clubs" so people don;t PM me asking me about this club or this coach.  Have rules of reviewing each coach and club and or doc and or all of them, so the coach or club can respond to each review, regardless if it's positive or negative or just a reviews of the obvious.  No coach is getting perfect 5 star positive reviews from all parents he coaches.  A good coach will piss off a parent or two each year.  I would like to start giving out crush reviews for all the coaches my dd has played for.  I will keep "how they dealt with politics" out of the scoring because it was a hot mess for all of us and we all need mulligans.  I got super emotional after the third lies from Docs and took it out on the coaches most of the time.  No crush reviews for Docs, only coaches and only about how they taught my dd and all that good stuff.  Were they honest?  Did they lie more than twice?  Did they add players when they said they wou;dn't during the season?  Did they charge for privates and did that cause problems?  Did they talk about how great they were and all their connections?  Did they respect my dd and treat her special, like a fine piece of china?


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 4, 2022)

crush said:


> Doc with kid? No one said free soccer is good for the Doc.  Yes, crush said soccer should be free for little kids but coach will get paid in other ways or by others, not the poor parents.  When you take your play to the next level, look to pay a good coach good pay for good coaching, not bribes to get minutes, the position of your choice and then more goodies if you pay and play the right way.  Money talks in this sport.  Paying a coach to play is not good.  Pay coach to learn the game= good.  Pay to play in the game and pay extra is naughty and opens up to naughtier behavior after hours.  You did see the Movie Forrest Gump?  Remember what Miss Gump had to do to get Forrest into school?  I do know a few Docs looking for more than money for play time.


None of your business. All that matters is that the club gets enough money coming in to help pay our coaches, fields, league fees, and my wallet. The development of one or two girls means nothing if the club isn't profitable.


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## jimlewis (Jun 4, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> None of your business. All that matters is that the club gets enough money coming in to help pay our coaches, fields, league fees, and my wallet. The development of one or two girls means nothing if the club isn't profitable.


My money is its one of Crush's new logins and is having a conversation with himself in order to tell his stories of the past.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> My money is its one of Crush's new logins and is having a conversation with himself in order to tell his stories of the past.


Thanks for nothing Jim.  This Doc came on here and started calling me names like "bum" and "Socialists" now I got you accusing me of talking to myself so I can share my dd story one more time before I leave for good.  I can;t catch a break.  I will say Dom will have none of that and he knows if you have extra accounts to talk to yourself.  I do not and would never do such a thing.  24 hours and no more nothing from crush.  Only PMs.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> My money is its one of Crush's new logins and is having a conversation with himself in order to tell his stories of the past.


Hey Jim, I can say I got 3 PMs saying two are Golden Gate for sure and just ignore him and one is not sure and think it might be a Doc.  My money is it's GG and I think GG is a Doc.  Your money has been taken and gone because you are wrong.  Let him share about how he charges his customers extra for extra play time while other kids who paid less play less.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 4, 2022)

crush said:


> Hey Jim, I can say I got 3 PMs saying two are Golden Gate for sure and just ignore him and one is not sure and think it might be a Doc.  My money is it's GG and I think GG is a Doc.  Your money has been taken and gone because you are wrong.  Let him share about how he charges his customers extra for extra play time while other kids who paid less play less.


what is GG? and also what is golden gate


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

No more public crush in 24 hours. at the forum.  It's 100% time for me to fly out of here and say goodbye.  Please, please, PM me any Q's you got after 5:55pm June 5th.  Love you guys


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

I might just take over for the next 24 hours with songs from crush and memes.


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## SJNoob (Jun 4, 2022)

My impression, and I could be wrong because I'm new to this, is that most youth coaches even at the club level make very little money. So that's why there's there are the extra clinics and such.

I'd hate to be on a team where I knew some parents were paying extra to get more play time for their kids though.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 4, 2022)

SJNoob said:


> My impression, and I could be wrong because I'm new to this, is that most youth coaches even at the club level make very little money. So that's why there's there are the extra clinics and such.
> 
> I'd hate to be on a team where I knew some parents were paying extra to get more play time for their kids though.


I 100% understand where you're coming from. 

Wait until you find out how things really work.

Sometimes the more you know the less you want to know.


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## crush (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I 100% understand where you're coming from.
> 
> Wait until you find out how things really work.
> 
> Sometimes the more you know the less you want to know.


I went down the Rabbit Hole and ran into some interesting folks.


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 4, 2022)

crush said:


> I went down the Rabbit Hole and ran into some interesting folks.


Theres no rabbit hole.

There is situations where players/parents get involved with something they think is "competitive". But they later find out that pay to play doesnt stop at the entry gate.


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## jimlewis (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Theres no rabbit hole.
> 
> There is situations where players/parents get involved with something they think is "competitive". But they later find out that pay to play doesnt stop at the entry gate.


This is so sad and pathetic.  I'm assuming you're blaming your kid not being as good or having as much playing time on other parents spending money on privates with their coaches?  
You're the worst parent out there.   Just say my kids not good enough to play, or im not willing to get more training for him/her.   Or the coach doesn't see as much potential in my kid.  Always excuses..


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 4, 2022)

jimlewis said:


> This is so sad and pathetic.  I'm assuming you're blaming your kid not being as good or having as much playing time on other parents spending money on privates with their coaches?
> You're the worst parent out there.   Just say my kids not good enough to play, or im not willing to get more training for him/her.   Or the coach doesn't see as much potential in my kid.  Always excuses..


Haha loving it.

No my kid starts every game + theres no $$$ making it happen.


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## GT45 (Jun 4, 2022)

SJNoob said:


> My impression, and I could be wrong because I'm new to this, is that most youth coaches even at the club level make very little money. So that's why there's there are the extra clinics and such.
> 
> I'd hate to be on a team where I knew some parents were paying extra to get more play time for their kids though.


I have been doing this a LONG time, and I have never heard of anyone paying extra to get their kid playing time. Sure the private lesson thing is a little shady with one coach (who I would never allow my daughter to play for), but he is an outlier.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 4, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Haha loving it.
> 
> No my kid starts every game + theres no $$$ making it happen.


your kid starts every game in a garbage team like Del Mar sharks


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## Carlsbad7 (Jun 5, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> your kid starts every game in a garbage team like Del Mar sharks


Wow, these are kids. 

You really need to take a step back.

Time to make use of the ignore button.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Theres no rabbit hole.
> 
> There is situations where players/parents get involved with something they think is "competitive". But they later find out that pay to play doesnt stop at the entry gate.


It was to me.  Four years ago I came here to ask my questions and I found a lot of holes.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> your kid starts every game in a garbage team like Del Mar sharks


I can say 100% it;s Docs like you that have ruined the sport for little girls.  Shame on you coach.  Thanks for nothing you guys.  My after hour PM box is from assholes like this coach.  "Just ignore" him.  Ya right, what happens when this is the Doc that will help you find your dd the right path, as long as you pay him to play.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

GT45 said:


> I have been doing this a LONG time, and I have never heard of anyone paying extra to get their kid playing time. Sure the private lesson thing is a little shady with one coach (who I would never allow my daughter to play for), but he is an outlier.


How many clubs have you been at the last 6 years?  I know the one your talking about and he needs to go.  If you visit other places, you will learn that he is not outlier and is just one of many assholes and liars in the game.  Paytoplayisgood is what needs to go from the game.  How much have you paid the last 6 years?  Be honest with us and I will tell you how much you paid so your dd can play.  Telling 8th grade parents that he is the way, the truth and the middleman to college is total BS.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

SJNoob said:


> My impression, and I could be wrong because I'm new to this, is that most youth coaches even at the club level make very little money. So that's why there's there are the extra clinics and such.
> 
> I'd hate to be on a team where I knew some parents were paying extra to get more play time for their kids though.


Docs make top dollars and the coaches that do all the work make less.  So yes, that's why he charges for extra play time.  He calls it privates but really it;s extra side hustle.  If pay enough, you will get enough play time.  Payless, less play time.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

GT45 said:


> I have been doing this a LONG time, and I have never heard of anyone paying extra to get their kid playing time. Sure the private lesson thing is a little shady with one coach (who I would never allow my daughter to play for), but he is an outlier.


I thought your dd played Girls Development Academy?  If yes, then that whole league was pay to play for three years.  If you pay, you get 25% starts bro.  What do you call that? I call pay to start and play.  I also know many rich parents that donated to the club=more play time.  If you kiss the right ass and do privates with the coach, bonus play.  If you dare challenge something that is wrong like pay so your kid plays, you pay with your reputation. Look dude, my dd was paid to play.  I also know a father that got a job, free soccer, unlimited starts, and his dd just had to come the games and as many practices as possible.  She started every game and got the position he wanted for her.  I was there so this is eye witness account.  You live in a bubble dad, fyi!!!


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> I 100% understand where you're coming from.
> 
> Wait until you find out how things really work.
> 
> Sometimes the more you know the less you want to know.


100%.


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 5, 2022)

In the end you have to blame the parents for feeding the system. My kid plays for a smaller club. He is one of the best players on the team so no fighting for playing time needed. He is having fun playing soccer. The practice is a 5 min drive from the house. Can't complain.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> In the end you have to blame the parents for feeding the system. My kid plays for a smaller club. He is one of the best players on the team so no fighting for playing time needed. He is having fun playing soccer. The practice is a 5 min drive from the house. Can't complain.


Blaming the parents is typical and easy to do.  Blaming the coach is typical and easy to do as well.  Blaming the kid is never good.  I say all the adults have to share in the blame game.  In my 11 years of experience and a pro at club hopping for the best deal ((jk, they all called me with the offers and I have all the notes)), most clubs have different offers and different ways to play the pay to play in the game.  I went to one club and no freebies or kickbacks or privates for play time.  My wife made the coach a pie and he refused the pie and hurt my wife's feelings.  He told her he can't receive anything that would give out any special favors in the games.  This was 7 years ago.  He told me pay to play is here and why soccer in the US is a business and not all fun and games for the kids after they turn 13.  Parents want access bro and theses Doc know what they want, that why they come on here because they money this way.  I think it;s wrong so that's why I came here, plus a few lied about other things as well.  It becomes a business if you let it and were the customers who pay.  The parents have no seat at the table to make things better by the way and if change were to happen, you need voices from the parents side, not the parent who is kissing ass.


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## Jamisfoes (Jun 5, 2022)

Speaking of best deal... We had a kid trying out with us. The dad told me they have a full ride with a mega club and looking to change clubs for some dumb/ made up reason. The kid is pretty good but my son says he is easy to guard. The family looks pretty well off. I'm wondering where is our full ride?


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Speaking of best deal... We had a kid trying out with us. The dad told me they have a full ride with a mega club and looking to change clubs for some dumb/ made up reason. The kid is pretty good but my son says he is easy to guard. The family looks pretty well off. I'm wondering where is our full ride?


Before the Girls development Academy, all the girl clubs charged to be coached.  I always paid my fair share and the only one's getting help were kids that needed help.  I had a great gig at the time and was in a position to help.  I chipped to help a dad once.  No big deal.  Yes, some coaches always had a free ride to offer for the right player but that was more of outlier.  Then the GDA came on the scene.  All Clubs were told you better have fields, "A" License coaches, No HSS and your Academy teams need to be fully funded.  Fully funded=full ride to play.  The top Boys got free and now it was the girls turn.  I had a liar who wore a US Soccer shirt, had email and was on their staff and ran the new training centers where they "trained" the girls to be YNT players, if the Doc invited you and you did what the liar asked you to do.  Plus he was Doc of the club.  He told me that all GDA clubs have to offer fully funded or you will get the boot.  Keep in mine the GDA only had age 3 groups and that were all combo.  I was getting called by every Doc ((minus Beach and Real and eagles)) for my dd to play up after she grew 5 inches and won the Natty.  Her lying Doc sold her ECNL 04, not GDA 03/02.  So we left to play up in the GDA for free and look to make the first ever U14 Youth National Team.  Then those same clowns realized that all their top 04s will leave to play up with 03/02s.  My dd was offered a spot for free with three top GDA clubs to play up.  Her Doc lied about who can play up.  After we left, I believe this same crew was able to get the GDA to offer 04 band right before they lost all their 04s.  I can prove it.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

Look what Trinity did with Soccer.  I am honored to have watched her play for two years.  A true talent.  Blues got some love  









						'Not my Dad's name': How Trinity Rodman is writing her own story
					

Trinity Rodman is the NWSL Rookie of the Year, snagged a USWNT call-up, and, yeah, she's the daughter of an NBA Hall of Famer. But the 20-year-old soccer superstar refuses to let anyone else own her story.




					www.espn.com


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 5, 2022)

crush said:


> Look what Trinity did with Soccer.  I am honored to have watched her play for two years.  A true talent.  Blues got some love
> 
> 
> 
> ...





crush said:


> How many clubs have you been at the last 6 years?  I know the one your talking about and he needs to go.  If you visit other places, you will learn that he is not outlier and is just one of many assholes and liars in the game.  Paytoplayisgood is what needs to go from the game.  How much have you paid the last 6 years?  Be honest with us and I will tell you how much you paid so your dd can play.  Telling 8th grade parents that he is the way, the truth and the middleman to college is total BS.


Without people like me, you wouldn't have clubs to put your puny daughter in. I am the reason why you are spending so much time on the forum, traveling with your daughter for games, and driving her to practice.


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Without people like me, you wouldn't have clubs to put your puny daughter in. I am the reason why you are spending so much time on the forum, traveling with your daughter for games, and driving her to practice.


Hi myself, how are you?  Jim has his money on that crush fella talking to himself again.  Can you let Jim know the truth?


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 5, 2022)

crush said:


> Hi myself, how are you?  Jim has his money on that crush fella talking to himself again.  Can you let Jim know the truth?


Jim is just stupid to think that. He is just joking


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## crush (Jun 5, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Jim is just stupid to think that. He is just joking


Ok, you say so.  I just got another PM telling me to stop it!!!


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