# Ethics of Playing at Lower Flight Levels



## Dof3 (Jun 5, 2019)

Is there a consensus about a younger player ('06 and younger) who plays at the DA/pre-DA/ECNL level guesting in summer tournaments with a same-age team slotted in a Flight 2 tournament bracket?  I don't see an issue with that player guesting on an older team, regardless of the playing tier, but my instinct is that playing at Flight 2 or below at the same age is not exactly fair.  I do not want to find an issue where there really isn't one with younger players, and I believe many teams do this.  Touches/time on the ball at this age is a good thing.  Seems that people who do it think it is fine and the team that loses to a team with a "ringer" thinks it's cheating.  Is this OK or unfair?


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## focomoso (Jun 5, 2019)

Fairness shouldn't be the question. We tend to take winning and loosing too seriously here, but in the long run, who cares who wins any given tournament (at any flight level)? There isn't a kid in LA who hasn't been blown out in some game or other. What matters is the development of the kids. Playing down a little can help a player develop because, as you mentioned, they get more touches/time on the ball and the added responsibility. Playing down too much, however, doesn't do anyone any good and if coaches are doing it to win flight 2 tournaments, they're the ones who have their priorities wrong.


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## Messi>CR7 (Jun 5, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> I do not want to find an issue where there really isn't one with younger players


It's actually a good thing for your kid/team.  IMHO playing a team that's slightly better (assuming the opposing team didn't bring in 4 or 5 guest players) is one of the best ways to improve.  When my kid was playing flight 2, I always wanted to see how she measured up against good flight 1 players.

Also there is not a evil plot behind everything in youth soccer .  When a team is short in summer, the typical choices are:
1. Play two games in 90+ degree without sub
2. Borrow player from your sister team
3. Borrow player from an outside club

#2 is just the most convenient option.


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## Dof3 (Jun 5, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> It's actually a good thing for your kid/team.  IMHO playing a team that's slightly better (assuming the opposing team didn't bring in 4 or 5 guest players) is one of the best ways to improve.  When my kid was playing flight 2, I always wanted to see how she measured up against good flight 1 players.
> 
> Also there is not a evil plot behind everything in youth soccer .  When a team is short in summer, the typical choices are:
> 1. Play two games in 90+ degree without sub
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts.  I agree with you on playing against better players, but my kid is the better player in this case.  I just didn't want to feel like a jerk for letting kid play in a Flight 2 tournament bracket.  Kid has occasionally guested with this team for scrimmages.  Opposing coaches have asked kid what team kid really plays for, etc.  I would expect that to be worse with parents/coaches in a tournament, so I was just looking for some unbiased feedback.  Thanks again.


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## Footy30 (Jun 5, 2019)

What irritates me is when I see F1 teams enter tournaments in lower brackets then win... it's like C'mon coaches (and parents) what are you doing? It does nothing for the development for the girls or boys on the F1 team to play against these lower teams. I feel so bad for the boys and girls when they actually play against teams at their level because they always lose and it's like.. hello?? These are the teams you should be playing to become a stronger team to challenge you and help you develop as a team and player!!!!


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## timbuck (Jun 5, 2019)

As long as they are the correct birth year - A few guests from higher level teams are ok.  And as long as it's because the team has few or zero subs.

As the ECNL/DA/DPL/ECNL2 teams have changed the landscape, it's really hard to tell what flight anyone belongs in these days.
Seems that the few tournaments I've looked at this summer -  Teams that are Flight 1 SCDSL have been playing in Flight 2 in tournaments.
Is this the right place?
Not many tournaments have 3 flights these days (tournaments are just as watered down as leagues are now.  There's at least 4 tournaments every weekend all summer long).  So you'll have DPL/ECNL/ECNL 2 teams taking up most of the Flight 1 spots.  You may get an SCDSL F1 team in that bracket that has a tough time.
Then you'll have the Flight 2 bracket made up of SCDSL Flight 1 and 2 teams. The Flight 1 teams will do well.  And the F2 teams will wonder/complain about a team sandbagging.


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## mirage (Jun 5, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> .....my kid is the better player in this case.  I just didn't want to feel like a jerk for letting kid play in a Flight 2 tournament bracket......


It seems to me that there are couple of things that's worth mentioning.

1) Let the kid have fun and not get hung up on the so called "lower level Flight 2 team",

2) There can be plenty of challenges regardless of how good the kid is since the player doesn't have other similar quality players to surround her.  In other words, its a team sport and one good player in a field of ok players may not show the players potential since there are so many rhythm and sequences in a game to move the ball around to create chances.

Also its worth mentioning that its okay, actually good, to feel like the best player on the field sometime for confidence building and also help to make other players play better.  All part of leadership quality development.

At the end of the day, its just few games and so what.  There are plenty of good players at the younger ages playing for lower tier teams still.


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## Josep (Jun 5, 2019)

My question is why is the kid guesting?
To get extra touches, to play with friends who don’t play higher levels, or because the coach wants a better player on the field?

In my opinion, tournaments are a joke, parents and coaches put too much emphasis on winning.

It doesn’t really do anybody any good to bring an overskilled kid in as a ringer.  Granted it takes 11 to win but still. 

The team doesn’t benefit from the 3-4 games they play with said player.  The guest doesn’t get much value either but extra games, and most kids play enough games as it is. 

One of my kids did this once years ago and we both regretted it.  Quality was awful.  Did she score yes. I can’t even remember if they won.  It was to help the club and in hindsight I saw it as a really bad move on all parts.

I do recall one time when we played with Goats and played the top flight and we pounded everyone and the trophy hunting coaches who had bulked up their tourney roster with better players had some sour grapes when they didn’t win.  But Goats was amazing because the girls did it themselves without any coaching.  That’s the most fun soccer to watch.


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## Poconos (Jun 5, 2019)

daughter was on the receiving end of that scenario a couple times in years past.  it was not pretty.  what's next after demoralizing the pre-teen soccer team . . . kicking puppies?   kids just want to play.  it's the anti-Midas touch of the parents that ruin things.  




Footy30 said:


> What irritates me is when I see F1 teams enter tournaments in lower brackets then win... it's like C'mon coaches (and parents) what are you doing? It does nothing for the development for the girls or boys on the F1 team to play against these lower teams. I feel so bad for the boys and girls when they actually play against teams at their level because they always lose and it's like.. hello?? These are the teams you should be playing to become a stronger team to challenge you and help you develop as a team and player!!!!


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## coachrefparent (Jun 5, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.  I agree with you on playing against better players, but my kid is the better player in this case.  I just didn't want to feel like a jerk for letting kid play in a Flight 2 tournament bracket.  Kid has occasionally guested with this team for scrimmages.  Opposing coaches have asked kid what team kid really plays for, etc.  I would expect that to be worse with parents/coaches in a tournament, so I was just looking for some unbiased feedback.  Thanks again.


Great posts above. Basically a DA (whatever you want to call it) player playing down to lower levels is in fact a sandbagger, ringer, and likely because lower team (club) wants to win, but certainly nothing to do with development of any players, certainly not the higher level player. You can read posts here but if have experience in this game, will know that most times lesser players sit as the "developing" player brought in plays almost 100%. 

But based upon your own comment, and those of opposing coaches, you already knew this. Your post shows that you have guilt about seeing your kid dominate and beat lesser players/teams. So you have your genuine answer.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 6, 2019)

I hate when teams do this.  People keep asking... 'who cares about winning?'  KIDS DO!!! ... and "development" is not something they care about at 06.  When teams bring in a ringer, it's garbage.  Don't tell me you can't find an equal or slightly lesser player on a "B" team, etc.  Maybe in rare instances, but if my kid is a lowest 1/3 on the roster, and you bring in a ringer who plays as much or more than my kid, you're a coach that kills a kid's spirit.  "Touches" at 06 is an excuse... and you're going to get brow beaten by other parents that don't want you there to begin with.  Never mind that other families and teams spend a tremendous amount of money and time to play at a tournament... only to get beaten by a team they maybe shouldn't lose to because of _that kid_.  

I'm usually in the minority on using 'ringer' guest players... but if I can't win a tournament without that, I'd rather lose.  Your kid plays at a higher level for a reason.


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## Surf Zombie (Jun 6, 2019)

My 2007 will be playing in the ECNL next year. The club she plays at has a few different geographic regions. The one that is closest to our house had a lower level 2006 team that was often short on players (between 11 & 13 girls on game day).  My dd guest played in 6 of their 8 league games and a tournament this year. I though it was a win-win,  as she got 11 games on the big field. Playing center-mid she helped  move the ball around quite a bit, which seemed to make her teammates happy. The girls won a bunch of games, she made some new friends and the parents were very receptive to her “helping out.”


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## Dof3 (Jun 6, 2019)

coachrefparent said:


> Great posts above. Basically a DA (whatever you want to call it) player playing down to lower levels is in fact a sandbagger, ringer, and likely because lower team (club) wants to win, but certainly nothing to do with development of any players, certainly not the higher level player. You can read posts here but if have experience in this game, will know that most times lesser players sit as the "developing" player brought in plays almost 100%.
> 
> But based upon your own comment, and those of opposing coaches, you already knew this. Your post shows that you have guilt about seeing your kid dominate and beat lesser players/teams. So you have your genuine answer.


This is helpful, thank you.  I agree that if the purpose of kid playing was to position team to win tournament, that would be a straight no for our family.  I see no benefit to my kid, the team or other kids in a clearly better player hoisting trophies in Flight 2 brackets.  The context here is not quite that.  The team is newly formed with some kids who are very inexperienced players and are just learning a higher level of play.  Team has been losing scrimmages by wide margins (by 6-8 goals, 14-1 in one case - we would need a separate thread on why a youth coach would beat another team by 13 goals, but I digress).  Coach asked her to play not to win the tournament, but because team is short subs for the summer tournaments and he does not want the new team to just get destroyed in tournaments while he is trying to teach them the basics and get them ready for the fall season.  Team parents are glad to have kid play because losing 14-1 is no fun for anybody.  

I posed this question because I am generally opposed to playing "down,"  and I am concerned that regardless of this particular context opposing coaches and parents will have issues with my kid when kid is impactful in a game because kid looks like a different level player - at times.  Kid is certainly not always consistent, and in some ways could use the experience for some of the same reasons Mirage notes.  I am fine with kids playing "up" in years or competitiveness.  This situation feels a little different to me, which is why I wanted some feedback on this generally.  But the variance of opinion here confirms my expectation that some opposing parents/coaches are likely to have issues with my kid playing, so we will be eyes open if kid plays.  Thanks to all for your thoughts.


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## futboldad1 (Jun 6, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> we would need a separate thread on why a youth coach would beat another team by 13 goals, but I digress).


I have heard this complaint a lot and I'd like to hear why this is the fault of the winning coach. Would it be less insulting if the opposing coach just played keep away once it got to 10, or should he/she allow the other team to stage a comeback by telling their team not to defend, or maybe play with 6 players and the rest can just sit on the bench.

Yes it sucks to see a youth team blown out, and it may be upsetting to some of the kids on it, but unless the other team is playing bootball and fouling and celebrating every goal like they won the World Cup then it's poor sportsmanship. But if a team is playing good soccer and being respectful with physicality and celebrations then I'd more look to the coach on the losing team and ask why they scheduled such an opponent. Or maybe the losing coach is OK with it and sees it as a learning opportunity and it's us parents whose egos are bruised.

I think the mentality of this situation has to shift towards "we need to get better" as opposed to "shame on them for scoring" if we're going to begin closing the gap with the rest of the world in soccer. What we do need a separate thread for is the need for relegation and a true league pyramid in the pro game...................


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## timbuck (Jun 6, 2019)

Why in the hell would a coach enter a tournament when his team is getting crushed in friendlies by wide margins?
Play more friendlies. 
Save the money for tournaments and put it toward something else.  (More training.   Pizza party.  Futsal.   TOCA).
And if lots of kids are gone on a weekend of a scheduled tournament-   Don’t play in that tournament that weekend.


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## Dof3 (Jun 6, 2019)

futboldad1 said:


> I have heard this complaint a lot and I'd like to hear why this is the fault of the winning coach. Would it be less insulting if the opposing coach just played keep away once it got to 10, or should he/she allow the other team to stage a comeback by telling their team not to defend, or maybe play with 6 players and the rest can just sit on the bench.
> 
> Yes it sucks to see a youth team blown out, and it may be upsetting to some of the kids on it, but unless the other team is playing bootball and fouling and celebrating every goal like they won the World Cup then it's poor sportsmanship. But if a team is playing good soccer and being respectful with physicality and celebrations then I'd more look to the coach on the losing team and ask why they scheduled such an opponent. Or maybe the losing coach is OK with it and sees it as a learning opportunity and it's us parents whose egos are bruised.
> 
> I think the mentality of this situation has to shift towards "we need to get better" as opposed to "shame on them for scoring" if we're going to begin closing the gap with the rest of the world in soccer. What we do need a separate thread for is the need for relegation and a true league pyramid in the pro game...................



Also good points, but 14-1 is a little excessive in my view without adjustment to style of play in that game.  There are plenty of things for kids to work on productively in that case.  Shots only by defenders on overlaps or outside players on underlaps, five connected passes before shots - adjustments that many coaches opt for in that situation.  If, with those adjustments, team still wins 14-1 then so be it.  But just relentlessly pounding a significantly weaker team is no more sporting than ringers winning tournaments.


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## El Clasico (Jun 6, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> Also good points, but 14-1 is a little excessive in my view without adjustment to style of play in that game.  There are plenty of things for kids to work on productively in that case.  Shots only by defenders on overlaps or outside players on underlaps, five connected passes before shots - adjustments that many coaches opt for in that situation.  If, with those adjustments, team still wins 14-1 then so be it.  But just relentlessly pounding a significantly weaker team is no more sporting than ringers winning tournaments.


Or you could look at like the coach is doing your team a favor.  He is letting you know that you guys are playing at the wrong level....period!!


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## jrcaesar (Jun 6, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> Coach asked her to play not to win the tournament, but because team is short subs for the summer tournaments and he does not want the new team to just get destroyed in tournaments while he is trying to teach them the basics and get them ready for the fall season. Team parents are glad to have kid play because losing 14-1 is no fun for anybody.


^^This is a good reason, assuming the coach is adding 1 and not 4 players and is balancing the regular kids' minutes. 



timbuck said:


> Why in the hell would a coach enter a tournament when his team is getting crushed in friendlies by wide margins?


Possible answer: Some clubs have reciprocal agreements where they each have to enter teams in each other's tournaments. Agree with you that they should play fewer of them.


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## jpeter (Jun 6, 2019)

Wait they're ethics in youth sports?

If coaches & players  are abiding & following the rules and codes of conduct for example are they ethical?   Officals there to remind them or give "caution" when needed?  If there are not specific rules in places governing  something can ethics be questioned?

Now morals that's a different story?  Individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong.   Is gaming the system like playing down a moral question?  Yes would seem to be the case for some.

My personal take is that up to the players with the help of their parents to decided what's right or not if asked.  Guest playing can be very rewarding with good learning and development possiblitities.

Would I recommend my player(s) guest at the same level or lower same age group?  No way; either play up if there is not a higher level or considering working on other things.  Injury fill in or to help out at sister/brother club team at the same age/level not withstanding but no way at a lower level in any case would I think that's morally the correct recommendation.


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## Grace T. (Jun 6, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> The team is newly formed with some kids who are very inexperienced players and are just learning a higher level of play.  Team has been losing scrimmages by wide margins (by 6-8 goals, 14-1 in one case - we would need a separate thread on why a youth coach would beat another team by 13 goals, but I digress).  Coach asked her to play not to win the tournament, but because team is short subs for the summer tournaments and he does not want the new team to just get destroyed in tournaments while he is trying to teach them the basics and get them ready for the fall season.  Team parents are glad to have kid play because losing 14-1 is no fun for anybody.


If they are newly formed why is the coach playing flight 2?  It also seems like the coach is selecting the wrong tournaments as there are tournaments out there for lower level flight 3 teams....granted, in the final rounds they are usually placed against flight 2 teams that crush them, but that's par for the course (in the semi's of a tournament dear son's team got crushed 10-0 by a silver elite team just 2 weekends back....that's par for the course for most new teams and it's part of the learning experience).  

The only justification I would see here is if the team doesn't have enough subs, but then only if the team has already committed to the tournie (and some circumstances forced them down) and only after trying to find an appropriate placed level player.  It seems from what you've written that's only part of the story and your coach is indeed trying to get some higher level help in the tournament (perhaps not to win, but to avoid getting crushed).  That's still not a great reason IMHO for bringing in a ringer, as somebody's got to finish at the bottom of the pool....if everyone did it, well.....


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## Emma (Jun 6, 2019)

Dof3 said:


> Is there a consensus about a younger player ('06 and younger) who plays at the DA/pre-DA/ECNL level guesting in summer tournaments with a same-age team slotted in a Flight 2 tournament bracket?  I don't see an issue with that player guesting on an older team, regardless of the playing tier, but my instinct is that playing at Flight 2 or below at the same age is not exactly fair.  I do not want to find an issue where there really isn't one with younger players, and I believe many teams do this.  Touches/time on the ball at this age is a good thing.  Seems that people who do it think it is fine and the team that loses to a team with a "ringer" thinks it's cheating.  Is this OK or unfair?


My child has been a guest player and has also lost playing time bc of a guest player.   The kid(s) that guest were from a flight above.  Some parents on the team were upset.  I saw their viewpoint.  I asked my child what my child's perspective was and it went along the lines of.  "It was awesome to play with such great players.  I had so much fun.  I want to learn to play like that...what do I have to do?"  My next question was...did any of the players from your team voice any thoughts?  Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players."  Would you guys want them to guest again?  "YES!"
The only complaints were from the parents.  The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves.  Total minutes lost from tournament play -80.  Knowledge and inspiration gained from observing and playing with better players....a lot more than 80 minutes of play time against dominating teams.  Why does it matter the reasons coach do what they do, it should only matter what the children get out of a particular situation.  It's hard to assess why coaches do what they do but most of the time...it's for multiple reasons - the win for the coach, the win to build confidence for the kid, the inspiration for the children, to show parents on the sideline what it takes to go to the next flight, etc...


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## Eagle33 (Jun 6, 2019)

Grace T. said:


> If they are newly formed why is the coach playing flight 2?  It also seems like the coach is selecting the wrong tournaments as there are tournaments out there for lower level flight 3 teams....granted, in the final rounds they are usually placed against flight 2 teams that crush them, but that's par for the course (in the semi's of a tournament dear son's team got crushed 10-0 by a silver elite team just 2 weekends back....that's par for the course for most new teams and it's part of the learning experience).


The fact of the matter is tournaments, unless they are big and well established, struggling big time to get teams to attend. If 15 years ago tournament director would call you and tell you your team is too good or not good enough, now they are happy just to get teams in and get paid. At the younger ages, it's very difficult to place teams correctly since there are no scores kept in some leagues and teams don't get rated. Lopsided scores at the younger age groups is a norm.


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## ToonArmy (Jun 6, 2019)

I've seen all of these things happen in one tournament involving my daughters team which is 05s and played up in an 04 bracket flight 2. They beat a team, I lost count, one of those games your goalie gets to play center forward and no one else gets to score. Why wasn't that other team in flight 3 it was an summer tournament meaning team was probably recently formed. Her team made it to the finals where they lost to a SCDSL Flight 1 team. Why wasn't this team in the top bracket of the tournament? Then during the medals ceremony the flight 1 teams coach handing out medals and doing player introductions introduced a handful of the girls that were helping them for the clubs ECNL team including the girl that scored all the goals. Good thing is our girls didn't really care much at least not as much as the parents did. And I did hear that this was typical of that coach.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 6, 2019)

_


Emma said:



			My child has been a guest player and has also lost playing time bc of a guest player.   The kid(s) that guest were from a flight above.  Some parents on the team were upset.  I saw their viewpoint.  I asked my child what my child's perspective was and it went along the lines of.  "It was awesome to play with such great players.  I had so much fun.  I want to learn to play like that...what do I have to do?"  My next question was...did any of the players from your team voice any thoughts?  Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players."  Would you guys want them to guest again?  "YES!"
The only complaints were from the parents.  The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves.  Total minutes lost from tournament play -80.  Knowledge and inspiration gained from observing and playing with better players....a lot more than 80 minutes of play time against dominating teams.  Why does it matter the reasons coach do what they do, it should only matter what the children get out of a particular situation.  It's hard to assess why coaches do what they do but most of the time...it's for multiple reasons - the win for the coach, the win to build confidence for the kid, the inspiration for the children, to show parents on the sideline what it takes to go to the next flight, etc...
		
Click to expand...

_
This worked for you because you won.  Well, your "other" version won.  Tournaments try to seed appropriately and spend a lot of time (hopefully) doing it.  They try to bracket appropriately, unless they're hosting, and when a team brings 2-3 ringers it can really upset the apple cart.  If your kid wants to watch better players, go watch them in their game.  I have no respect for coaches that bring in ringers.  Maybe I'm just wired that way... I have more admiration for Russell Westbrook and John Stockton, who got close but died trying, in their small markets, than Kevin Durant and Karl Malone who left to d**kride someone else's championship.  My player would rather lose with her team than win with someone that didn't grind with them all year long.


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## Emma (Jun 6, 2019)

The Outlaw said:


> This worked for you because you won.  Well, your "other" version won.  Tournaments try to seed appropriately and spend a lot of time (hopefully) doing it.  They try to bracket appropriately, unless they're hosting, and when a team brings 2-3 ringers it can really upset the apple cart.  If your kid wants to watch better players, go watch them in their game.  I have no respect for coaches that bring in ringers.  Maybe I'm just wired that way... I have more admiration for Russell Westbrook and John Stockton, who got close but died trying, in their small markets, than Kevin Durant and Karl Malone who left to d**kride someone else's championship.  My player would rather lose with her team than win with someone that didn't grind with them all year long.


They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive.  The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue.   A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.

Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions.  Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.

We, as parents, should not worry or care about how things affect tournaments, clubs , games or leagues.  What we should focus solely on at the U littles is whether something is helping our child develop.

Outlaw - we do have different viewpoints, I'd rather watch my child develop at the u littles then watch my child grind and win with the team at this young stage.  My child wants to win but that's secondary to me at the u littles.


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## futboldad1 (Jun 6, 2019)

Emma said:


> They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive.  The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. *Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue.*   A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.
> 
> Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions.  Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.
> 
> ...


Sportsmanship is not just the score.* My DDs played for the top teams at SD Surf and we'd routinely win friendlies by double figures and the game was played the right way. They've also guested for teams that won by large margins and it was ugly and direct and the last time they guested with them. I'm not judging a coach by how much they win by (or lose by, which could also be a discussion) but how they, their sideline and their team act.

*Caveat - if you're playing out of choice in flight 2 or 3 and winning 20-zero then I take back my points above.


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## watfly (Jun 6, 2019)

Seems like a lot of over analysis on this topic. It's your kid, if they have a good experience guesting, good for them.

The naysayers are just worried about how this type of situation may impact (or previously impacted) their kid.


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## Grace T. (Jun 6, 2019)

Emma said:


> Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players."  Would you guys want them to guest again?  "YES!"
> The only complaints were from the parents.  The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves.  .


Children like sugar too, but our job as parents is to know better.  Of course kids like to win.  If soccer is all about fun (as some argue) well then that's great.  But soccer being zero sum game meant someone else had to lose and pay that price.

At ULittles in particular, though, kids don't learn by observation.  What they learn by watching top flight players their age, they could learn by watching Premier League or MLS (it will do them as much good).  Kids at that age, studies have shown, learn primarily by doing-- repetition on one end, and trial and error on another, depending what part of the brain is being developed.  That's why sitting down Littles and having them watch their own videos to analyze mistakes doesn't do a whole lot of good either (their brains haven't developed to operate that way yet).  So to the extent the ringers are costing the players play time, that is something which they aren't getting a benefit from (yet the parents are paying for) beyond inspiration.  They'd have more of a benefit is the top flight players came down and practiced with them (one v ones, passing, shooting against their keeper) than if the top flight players played in a tournament with them.  So the "it develops the other players" argument doesn't carry a lot of water: if that were true we really cared about that, we'd force the top flight players in the club to periodically practice with the lower flight players to develop them.

As for questioning the coaches, their interests are different than ours as parents.  The coach is judged by his wins and losses and ultimately by the tournaments won and the promotion to higher flights.  The coach also wants to avoid panic situations by losing too much.  But the coach's interests are not aligned with the child's and that's a problem, which means it falls to the parent to look out for the child.

I personally think the guest thing has gotten too out of control.  We don't allow players to guest from higher age groups, we shouldn't allow it from higher flights...I get one of the problems is tournaments have become too spread out and common but there's were the soccer orgs need to get involved and prohibit bracketing teams for officially sanctioned tournaments more than 1 flight above or below.  Otherwise, why have the brackets at all....given their distortive effect on development you may as well just get rid of them.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 6, 2019)

Emma said:


> They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive.  The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue.   A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.
> 
> Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions.  Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.
> 
> ...


No, we both want to see development... but we're not there for us... we're there for the kids, and the kids want to win.  The kids know other teams and their players unless it's Surf or some other, national venue.  If you bring in a ringer, it's because you're afraid to compete with the team you have.  I have no respect for that.  You aren't "developing"... you're taking playing and developing time away from the kids you have 100% of the time.  And for the record, I remember very few parents driving home and saying, "that was a real development opportunity" after a tourney.  06 isn't Ulittles anymore... they're 13.


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## Emma (Jun 6, 2019)

Watfly  - I agree with you.  From our experience, it was good for my child to play with better players.  Others may have experienced things differently.  I was putting my experience out there for the OP. 

futboldad1- I agree with you...not every double digit win indicates a shady coach.  At 17-0 though...the game management didn't happen much.  Switch players around at 6-0, 8-0 take a player out and put goalie in field, 10-0 another player out so your players can have more players go after them when they have the ball, at 12-0 make it a tactical practice.  Sometimes things get out of hand quickly and there's really nothing anyone can do about it. 

Grace - that's a little extreme with the sugar comparison, don't ya think?  My child actually enjoyed the experience and I actually listened to my child instead of telling my child that it was a terrible experience for x, y, and z reasons.  Children learn from observation first, then they get better through repetition.  Isn't that why you take your son to private lessons, to ensure he observes and learns the right way to play first, and then practice repeatedly to improve?  Observations, like parental or pier cussing, leads to child cussing.    They perfect their cussing through repetition and cuss at the appropriate times when they become adults...like at youth soccer games Our culture is not a big viewer of soccer - so the children don't learn as much from viewing games.  Besides - peer pressure and influence is very high for ulittles. Not every goal a coach has is misaligned with a child's development - some will align and some will not.  

Outlaw - We just see it differently.  06 is still ulittle to me.  In fact...I'll push it to 05s.  If we're talking about gymnastics, it's definitely close to their prime. We're discussing soccer here, development should still be the focus at U15.  Most players don't hit their prime until their twenties...what's the rush? When we take the drive home with our child, we ask our child - did you have fun and did you learn anything...Our child's response weighs heavily how we view the situation bc it is the child's learning experience and not ours.  If my child told me it was a great fun learning and inspirational experience...why would I care about the Coach's choice to compete or not ....why would I feel the need to "disrespect" a coach for bringing that experience into my child's life? For my child, the experience of playing with better players was worth the trade off of less playing time.  Teammates felt this way too...parents were pissed.  What the coach did inspired the desire to be better in the players ... and that wasn't established through playing time for my child.  It was definitely a great trade off for *my* child.


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## Grace T. (Jun 6, 2019)

Emma said:


> Isn't that why you take your son to private lessons, to ensure he observes and learns the right way to play first, and then practice repeatedly to improve?


Don't really want to get into an argument with you so I'll just say agree to disagree.  Different people get different things and have different objectives in soccer.  Different people have different perspectives on ethics.

But I'll disagree in one respect: goalkeeper coaches (at least the ones that know what they are doing) don't really instruct goalkeepers by observation and showing them how to do it right.  Partially it's that most are too old to do it.    I'd pay real money to see Jeff Tackett execute a series of high dives.  But they also know that's not a very good way for the kids to learn...they instruct them by having them execute and correct them by leading questions to help them figure out what they did wrong (the kids know they did something wrong because with goalkeepers it's easy...it went into the goal)

There's some exceptions.  For real beginners that have no idea how to dive, you might show them one or two.  Or if you are emphasizing hand placement or a correction, you might at a real slow speed show where you want the arm.  But they never instruct the assistant to ping them (or an older goalkeeper) and just have the younger ones watch and learn.


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## coachrefparent (Jun 6, 2019)

As others have noted, if your team is getting shellacked 14-1 in a friendly, they should be playing at a level that they can be competitive.  Such a team should not have  a high level DA/ECNL player on it for any reason.  It doesn't help anyone on the team, but you can rationalize it to your heart's delight. 

These little kids don't know any better, but once they are teens they would never play down so much lower, no matter the reason given them.


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