# CSL future?



## Eagle33 (May 17, 2022)

There is a big list of CSL clubs just crossed over to SoCal. Something must be wrong.
Getting popcorn.....


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## timbuck (May 17, 2022)

CSL must be really awful.  I can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal after this past seasons mess. (State Cup, fall season carryover into February, referee shortage, allowing players from higher leagues to play in SoCal f1/f2/f3 games).... But they have a really cool logo and field signs.


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## Grace T. (May 17, 2022)

timbuck said:


> CSL must be really awful.  I can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal after this past seasons mess. (State Cup, fall season carryover into February, referee shortage, allowing players from higher leagues to play in SoCal f1/f2/f3 games).... But they have a really cool logo and field signs.


It's like what happened to KFC and Popeyes.  KFC had some underlying issues with its product and didn't keep up with the times.  All they attempted was a rebrand from Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC.  People moved on to the next thing and nobody wants to get stuck being associated with the old thing.  But Popeyes has some issues too...it's great if you get newly made chicken but if it's been sitting in the heater for a while it's awful and their drive thrus are a nightmare.  Meanwhile, there's this up and coming thing called Chick Fil A.


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## watfly (May 17, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's like what happened to KFC and Popeyes.  KFC had some underlying issues with its product and didn't keep up with the times.  All they attempted was a rebrand from Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC.  People moved on to the next thing and nobody wants to get stuck being associated with the old thing.  But Popeyes has some issues too...it's great if you get newly made chicken but if it's been sitting in the heater for a while it's awful and their drive thrus are a nightmare.  Meanwhile, there's this up and coming thing called Chick Fil A.


Out of curiosity what's the Chick Fil A of youth soccer?


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## SoccerFan4Life (May 17, 2022)

One league in SoCal is close to becoming a reality.  Now if they can stop creating so many tiers at the top level (Flight 1, europa, champion, discovery, ECRL).    SMH


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## Grace T. (May 17, 2022)

watfly said:


> Out of curiosity what's the Chick Fil A of youth soccer?


It's way too early to know.  We're slightly passed the Popeyes ascendant phase, and we are into all the various experiments being floated out there.  One might wind up a Chick Fil A (and it may not even come from SoCal), while another is a Boston Market, Kenny Rogers or Church's.   The "soccer market" is really unstable right now, with the exception on the boys end of the MLS Next.  It's funny SoCal is consolidating the lower end, but on the higher end there's a lot of split right now in the intermediate tiers, both boys and girls.


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## timbuck (May 17, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> One league in SoCal is close to becoming a reality.  Now if they can stop creating so many tiers at the top level (Flight 1, europa, champion, discovery, ECRL).    SMH


We had one league about 10 years ago.  It was "Coast" - they had promotion/relegation.  they had a state cup that meant something.  Then ECNL came in.  Then SCDSL was formed. And now we have the spaghetti bowl of soccer leagues that we have today.


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## timbuck (May 17, 2022)

watfly said:


> Out of curiosity what's the Chick Fil A of youth soccer?


I wish there was a league that was closed on Sundays.


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## Eagle33 (May 17, 2022)

timbuck said:


> I wish there was a league that was closed on Sundays.


Mormon League is coming soon...


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## Dargle (May 17, 2022)

timbuck said:


> CSL must be really awful.  I can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal after this past seasons mess. (State Cup, fall season carryover into February, referee shortage, allowing players from higher leagues to play in SoCal f1/f2/f3 games).... But they have a really cool logo and field signs.


Both leagues have their problems, but I expect it's more of a critical mass issue.  Some of the clubs moving away from Coast are doing so because many of their neighboring clubs have already done so or announced that they are moving.  That means that travel will become an issue if they don't move too. They no longer have the critical mass to have a robust bracket in their area, just like Coast lost a bunch of OC teams with SCDSL started with the big OC clubs.


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## mlx (May 17, 2022)

What I hate about socal is that there's no care about having accurate results, rescheduling games, etc... At the end one team had 15 games, other teams had 10 games, etc, and results are not updated for the last weeks, etc. there's no way to determine the winner of a bracket.


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## Curious (May 17, 2022)

With the addition of many teams joining this season from CSL I just hope Socal does something to straighten out the mess of teams playing at the wrong level.  Looking at a couple different age groups at State Cup, there were a number of Flight 1 Europa teams that ended up in the quarter finals (I looked before the semifinal or finals) in the Super Cup level.  Some of these Europa teams seem to have easily beat Discovery teams to get there.  This seems to show there was an abundance of misplaced teams in the league.  Now with more teams coming from CSL things need to be corrected or it will get even more ridiculous.  My guess is that teams that were in Discovery but didn’t perform are going to try their best not to be relegated, but if they aren’t then the whole concept of the Discovery division being made up of the best teams in the Socal league becomes false.  I know in theory it’s the clubs that choose which level their teams play, but I believe it’s different for Discovery and Champions.  I suspect Socal might not want to admit this was something CSL did well ensuring that the top level contained the top teams.


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## crush (May 17, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's like what happened to KFC and Popeyes.  KFC had some underlying issues with its product and didn't keep up with the times.  All they attempted was a rebrand from Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC.  People moved on to the next thing and nobody wants to get stuck being associated with the old thing.  But Popeyes has some issues too...it's great if you get newly made chicken but if it's been sitting in the heater for a while it's awful and their drive thrus are a nightmare.  Meanwhile, there's this up and coming thing called Chick Fil A.


In and Out Bugers had a falling out and that person started EZ Out Bugers.


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## crush (May 17, 2022)

timbuck said:


> I wish there was a league that was closed on Sundays.


Looking back on the last 11 years, I agree coach buck.  Tournaments are so addicting and so fun when kids r young, so you would need to explain the downsides on playing 4 or 5 games in two days and playing ome match on Saturday.


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## Grace T. (May 17, 2022)

Curious said:


> With the addition of many teams joining this season from CSL I just hope Socal does something to straighten out the mess of teams playing at the wrong level.  Looking at a couple different age groups at State Cup, there were a number of Flight 1 Europa teams that ended up in the quarter finals (I looked before the semifinal or finals) in the Super Cup level.  Some of these Europa teams seem to have easily beat Discovery teams to get there.  This seems to show there was an abundance of misplaced teams in the league.  Now with more teams coming from CSL things need to be corrected or it will get even more ridiculous.  My guess is that teams that were in Discovery but didn’t perform are going to try their best not to be relegated, but if they aren’t then the whole concept of the Discovery division being made up of the best teams in the Socal league becomes false.  I know in theory it’s the clubs that choose which level their teams play, but I believe it’s different for Discovery and Champions.  I suspect Socal might not want to admit this was something CSL did well ensuring that the top level contained the top teams.


On the boys end, they've lost a few of the "top teams" to EA and Elite 64.  The intermediate levels, at least on the boys side, are a mess right now.

On of the reasons clubs have been attracted to Socal league is it gives them more control over pro/rel.  You aren't going to be dependent on getting stuck in a bracket with 4 amazing teams, you can build the team at the level instead of have the team move up and then upgrade the players, and it takes the must win at all cost out of it that sometimes cheats development and rather than a pyramid it's more of a rectangle.  Of course, they'll get it wrong every once in a while.


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (May 17, 2022)

timbuck said:


> I wish there was a league that was closed on Sundays.


hahaha 1000% agree... the spring league with sat AND sun games for 5 weeks straight wasn't fun...


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## Eagle33 (May 18, 2022)

Socal-Soccer-Dad said:


> hahaha 1000% agree... the spring league with sat AND sun games for 5 weeks straight wasn't fun...


Not to highjack this, but....Spring league idea was a disaster.


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## JabroniBeater805 (May 18, 2022)

timbuck said:


> CSL must be really awful.  I can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal after this past seasons mess. (State Cup, fall season carryover into February, referee shortage, allowing players from higher leagues to play in SoCal f1/f2/f3 games).... But they have a really cool logo and field signs.


Can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal? All of our best competition (2009 boys F1) left and went to SoCal. That's the sentiment throughout the entire club. We want to play competitive games.


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## Jamisfoes (May 18, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> Not to highjack this, but....Spring league idea was a disaster.


Letting teams forfeit with no consequences is a disaster. We enjoyed having games on both Sat And Sun.


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## timbuck (May 18, 2022)

JabroniBeater805 said:


> Can't see why anyone would want to play in SoCal? All of our best competition (2009 boys F1) left and went to SoCal. That's the sentiment throughout the entire club. We want to play competitive games.


I predict that within the next 3 years there will be a group of clubs that break off and try to form a competing league.  Thankfully my kids will be done with soccer then.


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## Code (May 18, 2022)

Curious said:


> With the addition of many teams joining this season from CSL I just hope Socal does something to straighten out the mess of teams playing at the wrong level.  Looking at a couple different age groups at State Cup, there were a number of Flight 1 Europa teams that ended up in the quarter finals (I looked before the semifinal or finals) in the Super Cup level.  Some of these Europa teams seem to have easily beat Discovery teams to get there.  This seems to show there was an abundance of misplaced teams in the league.  Now with more teams coming from CSL things need to be corrected or it will get even more ridiculous.  My guess is that teams that were in Discovery but didn’t perform are going to try their best not to be relegated, but if they aren’t then the whole concept of the Discovery division being made up of the best teams in the Socal league becomes false.  I know in theory it’s the clubs that choose which level their teams play, but I believe it’s different for Discovery and Champions.  I suspect Socal might not want to admit this was something CSL did well ensuring that the top level contained the top teams.


Absolutely.  Clubs should not be able to seed themselves into SoCal Flights this season.  Promotion and Relegation should be in effect.  I understand some of the brackets are inaccurate due to missed games, but you have to start somewhere.


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## SoccerFan4Life (May 18, 2022)

Jamisfoes said:


> Letting teams forfeit with no consequences is a disaster. We enjoyed having games on both Sat And Sun.


I didnt enjoy having a game at 4pm on Mother's day with a 45 minute drive.    Spring league was a money making machine $350 sounded like a good deal until you find out that you also have to pay for the ref fees.  Basically it was a scrimmage for $95 per game


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## Grace T. (May 18, 2022)

Code said:


> Absolutely.  Clubs should not be able to seed themselves into SoCal Flights this season.  Promotion and Relegation should be in effect.  I understand some of the brackets are inaccurate due to missed games, but you have to start somewhere.


Pro/rel has some other virtues (as well as other costs) but proper sorting isn't one of them.  You start from the assumption that (unless the team is playing at the highest levels) if they are winning 80% of their games (and therefore clearly promotable) or losing 80% of their games (and therefore clearly relegable) they aren't playing at the right bracket and have lost a year being misplaced.  Yet if you look at the coast bronze, silver and even silver elite brackets over the years, we see that there are teams clearly at the top of the bracket and at the bottom.  Ideally, with properly sorted brackets, the titles are decided by single goals with most teams spread out 50/50 among wins and losses.

My son's first team was a coast team that was required to play bronze even though as a newly formed team they were winning or placing at most of their summer tournaments.  They went on to win every game in league, usually by margins of 5 or more, sometimes double digits.  I think they only had one game that was even close.  But when they got to league cup, and state cup, the players, especially those on defense, were in for a rude awakening when they started battling silver and silver elite teams, for which bronze had done nothing to make them ready.

The issue with pro/rel is that it is more about player recruitment than actually developing the players.  If a team gets promoted, it gets access to a higher quality level of player that doesn't want to play "only bronze" or "only silver".  They can therefore cut the weaker players and upgrade their existing players, but it's a process which leads to a wasted year for development of the team in the wrong bracket.  The individual players, particularly at the younger ages, are also improperly sorted because you get those "impact players" everyone wants and is advertising for which are placed at a team that is lower than their skill level in order to make a difference in wins/losses.  With relegation, it could cause the explosion of the team, and a minimum players will leave, which means how they do the following year depends on the coach's ability to hold the team together rather than any coaching (different skill set).  The only way to fix this is to say players are tied to their starting team and teams can only upgrade by recruiting new non league players or by trading existing players, but that will never work because the parents of kids that want to move will just move onto another league that doesn't do that.

I'm not saying that SoCal has it right either, just that pro/rel is not the panacea to fixing the issue.  The only way around it would be like some European countries do it (and AYSO kind of does it except they do it with equality in mind) which is to assign rankings to kids and have the ranked kids only get to pick among eligible teams they are from (you can bid up, but not down).  That would require though a unified national league at all skill levels, and the parents would loudly complain their kids were not assigned the right player ranking (much as happens in Fifa).


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## Socal-Soccer-Dad (May 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> which is to assign rankings to kids and have the ranked kids only get to pick among eligible teams they are from (you can bid up, but not down). That would require though a unified national league at all skill levels, and the parents would loudly complain their kids were not assigned the right player ranking


oh pretty interesting. let's do it! even if I just want to see parents lose their minds over it...  (maybe me??)

in terms of relegation/promotion, year to year rel/pro doesn't seem to work because the teams will change... I think we'd need to somehow "enforce" kids to stay with teams for 2 years... OR have rel/pro WITHIN the season... maybe break the season in 2 and adjust rankings/divisions based on 1st half of season to place them in the 2nd half of the season + state cup?


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## Woodwork (May 18, 2022)

The problem with CSL at the moment isn't pro-rel, it is the perception that competition isn't good at the highest brackets, at least on the girls side.  Well, the lack of competition hurts the value of promotion.  Apparently it is depressing to win league games when last year's top two teams jumped ship.  I guess the sheen wears off for winning CRL and state cup when you know the best teams aren't there. 

Getting to do USYS national events for finishing at the top of Cal South/CSL isn't great when you didn't have the competition to prepare you for it.  Premier G2006 fall season for 2020 (took place in Spring 2021) only had 5 teams in it.  This resulted in a Girl's team that was sent to USYS PRO as the Cal South representative with somewhat embarrassing results.

I think a lot of these late league-jumpers are in for a rude awakening, though.  They seem to think being middle of Premier is similar to being middle of Discovery when reality is they are more comparable to lower discovery or flight 1.  But, at least they'll have a better idea of where they truly stand.  Illusions are going to be shattered.

At the bronze-silver level CSL doesn't seem to care enough.  Just saw a CSL spring cup where they didn't even have a final because of mismanagement.

I actually really enjoy pro-rel because it gives meaning to league games.  Even in CSL you could apply for an exception if you got better players and demonstrated improvement in Spring or Summer.  Premier, when there was competition, meant you did something to get there and you earned it.  I saw a team jump from F2 to discovery and get wiped out, but damned if parents weren't boasting that their kid was in discovery.


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## Emma (May 18, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> One league in SoCal is close to becoming a reality.  Now if they can stop creating so many tiers at the top level (Flight 1, europa, champion, discovery, ECRL).    SMH


I shared your exact thoughts a few months ago but GA/MLS Next is starting to form more layers to their leagues.  A lot of small clubs with good teams are migrating to EA, which would then make it more attractive to move their 2nd and 3rd teams to EA2.

GA/MLS NEXT is doing a good job getting their kids noticed by youth national team scouts.  Great female players don't need to move to ECNL clubs to be noticed by youth national teams.  It'll be interesting if parents and kids notice this trend. 

The landscape of Socal youth soccer is changing all the time.  Curious to see where it goes in the next few years.  We only have a few more years to go but this seems to be a problem ever since they started creating closed leagues based on clubs.  The excluded clubs will always be creating an alternative.  A league needs to find a way to include everyone in order to have one league in SoCal because we are big enough for 2 leagues.


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## Carlsbad7 (May 18, 2022)

Emma said:


> I shared your exact thoughts a few months ago but GA/MLS Next is starting to form more layers to their leagues.  A lot of small clubs with good teams are migrating to EA, which would then make it more attractive to move their 2nd and 3rd teams to EA2.
> 
> GA/MLS NEXT is doing a good job getting their kids noticed by youth national team scouts.  Great female players don't need to move to ECNL clubs to be noticed by youth national teams.  It'll be interesting if parents and kids notice this trend.
> 
> The landscape of Socal youth soccer is changing all the time.  Curious to see where it goes in the next few years.  We only have a few more years to go but this seems to be a problem ever since they started creating closed leagues based on clubs.  The excluded clubs will always be creating an alternative.  A league needs to find a way to include everyone in order to have one league in SoCal because we are big enough for 2 leagues.


Agree 100% socal ECNL does have some good teams. But, this is a marathon not a sprint. What people are going to see is that going all in at 11 years old isnt always the best choice. The likelihood of getting hurt + burning players out increases at every level up the competitive ladder.


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## dad4 (May 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Pro/rel has some other virtues (as well as other costs) but proper sorting isn't one of them.  You start from the assumption that (unless the team is playing at the highest levels) if they are winning 80% of their games (and therefore clearly promotable) or losing 80% of their games (and therefore clearly relegable) they aren't playing at the right bracket and have lost a year being misplaced.  Yet if you look at the coast bronze, silver and even silver elite brackets over the years, we see that there are teams clearly at the top of the bracket and at the bottom.  Ideally, with properly sorted brackets, the titles are decided by single goals with most teams spread out 50/50 among wins and losses.
> 
> My son's first team was a coast team that was required to play bronze even though as a newly formed team they were winning or placing at most of their summer tournaments.  They went on to win every game in league, usually by margins of 5 or more, sometimes double digits.  I think they only had one game that was even close.  But when they got to league cup, and state cup, the players, especially those on defense, were in for a rude awakening when they started battling silver and silver elite teams, for which bronze had done nothing to make them ready.
> 
> ...


At least near me, pro-rel does not end up being a recruiting thing.   The teams stay more or less intact  each time they move up or down.

I certainly cannot think of a team that "exploded" because of relegation.  You just come back next season and try to win the lower league.


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## SoccerFan4Life (May 18, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Agree 100% socal ECNL does have some good teams. But, this is a marathon not a sprint. What people are going to see is that going all in at 11 years old isnt always the best choice. The likelihood of getting hurt + burning players out increases at every level up the competitive ladder.


Add to the fact that the younger population is not growing.  Too many clubs and leagues for a smaller group of players in a few years. LAUSD just announced a 30% reduction in students by 2030.  Birth rates are at an all time low.      Should be interesting to see which league survives in 4 years.


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## Grace T. (May 18, 2022)

dad4 said:


> At least near me, pro-rel does not end up being a recruiting thing.   The teams stay more or less intact  each time they move up or down.
> 
> I certainly cannot think of a team that "exploded" because of relegation.  You just come back next season and try to win the lower league.


In Coast at least I’ve personally seen it happen 2 times and I’m aware of it happening at least another 3, just in my sons age group.  With niece of seen it once as well.


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## Grace T. (May 18, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> The problem with CSL at the moment isn't pro-rel, it is the perception that competition isn't good at the highest brackets, at least on the girls side.  Well, the lack of competition hurts the value of promotion.  Apparently it is depressing to win league games when last year's top two teams jumped ship.  I guess the sheen wears off for winning CRL and state cup when you know the best teams aren't there.
> 
> Getting to do USYS national events for finishing at the top of Cal South/CSL isn't great when you didn't have the competition to prepare you for it.  Premier G2006 fall season for 2020 (took place in Spring 2021) only had 5 teams in it.  This resulted in a Girl's team that was sent to USYS PRO as the Cal South representative with somewhat embarrassing results.
> 
> ...


There is no meaning to a league game.  Unless it’s the highest level, no one is going to care who won 20 years from now. Trying to give a league game meaning is an exercise in futility. 

the problem with the exception is the marketing.  You can’t start out assuring the parents we’re going to play x level.  You can’t court better players unless maybe you absorb a part of another team. You can’t stop some of the better players from looking at other opportunities. The brackets particularly at the younger ages are about the ability to recruit


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## timbuck (May 18, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> Mormon League is coming soon...


That's a whole other story.  Lots of really solid players out there that miss half of their games.


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## Larzby (May 18, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> The problem with CSL at the moment isn't pro-rel, it is the perception that competition isn't good at the highest brackets, at least on the girls side.  Well, the lack of competition hurts the value of promotion.  Apparently it is depressing to win league games when last year's top two teams jumped ship.  I guess the sheen wears off for winning CRL and state cup when you know the best teams aren't there.
> 
> Getting to do USYS national events for finishing at the top of Cal South/CSL isn't great when you didn't have the competition to prepare you for it.  Premier G2006 fall season for 2020 (took place in Spring 2021) only had 5 teams in it.  This resulted in a Girl's team that was sent to USYS PRO as the Cal South representative with somewhat embarrassing results.
> 
> ...


You are correct about the lack of quality girls teams in CSL.  Teams that finish first in Gold routinely get badly beaten in middle tier flights in tourneys.


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## outside! (May 19, 2022)

timbuck said:


> That's a whole other story.  Lots of really solid players out there that miss half of their games.


That is their choice. Once travelled to Utah for a round robin with two other SoCal teams and a Salt Lake team. We faced the Salt Lake team on Sunday. Most of the team could not play and it looked like the team was just a bunch of subs. Nice of them to ask us to travel all that way and then not show up.


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