# Hard Cast during State Cup



## temecs (Jan 19, 2017)

So we were told yesterday that my child has a buckle fracture on his forearm and needs a hard cast. Does anyone know if he will be allowed to play in State Cup? Do we have any options?  Hard cast or splint?


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## Eagle33 (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we were told yesterday that my child has a buckle fracture on his forearm and needs a hard cast. Does anyone know if he will be allowed to play in State Cup? Do we have any options?  Hard cast or splint?


99.9% that referee will not allow your kid to play with a cast, but there is always 0.01%


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## Supermodel56 (Jan 19, 2017)

What if he wears a soft cast over his hard cast?


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## outside! (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we were told yesterday that my child has a buckle fracture on his forearm and needs a hard cast. Does anyone know if he will be allowed to play in State Cup? Do we have any options?  Hard cast or splint?


Let the kid heal. There is no good reason for a younger to play in a cast. There are no college coaches on the sideline. Don't risk the future health of your player or the health of the players they play against (and with).


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## Gasman (Jan 19, 2017)

outside! said:


> Let the kid heal. There is no good reason for a younger to play in a cast. There are no college coaches on the sideline. Don't risk the future health of your player or the health of the players they play against (and with).


+1.  Just curious, did your DD's orthopedic surgeon clear her for contact sports?  I can't imagine an orthopod saying it's ok to go back onto the pitch with a fresh fracture.


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## temecs (Jan 19, 2017)

Last night we just went to urgent care and they gave us the referral to meet with the orthopedic surgeon today.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> Last night we just went to urgent care and they gave us the referral to meet with the orthopedic surgeon today.


My daughter had the same injury a few years ago and we tried everything, special foam cast over the hard cast taped up with more foam, we did that for 6 weeks and the refs would not ever let her play.


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## gauchosean (Jan 19, 2017)

Without a Doctor's release nobody should let her play with or without a cast, that is what responsible coach/club/parent would do.  No sense in risking long term damage.

But if you go forward I would say it will be highly unlikely the Referee would allow her to play. If in the referee's opinion the cast is a danger to the player or another player they will not allow her to play. 

My oldest son broke his arm twice in soccer games once at u12 and again at u17, soccer was the least of his worries, try doing AP homework with a busted writing arm. Best to just ride it out and let it heal.


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## mirage (Jan 19, 2017)

outside! said:


> Let the kid heal. There is no good reason for a younger to play in a cast. There are no college coaches on the sideline. Don't risk the future health of your player or the health of the players they play against (and with).


Same....

And perhaps more damaging, if allowed to play with a such an injury is loss of confidence and favoring the injury.  By favoring the injury, the very nature of being unnaturally cautious, may cause addition injury elsewhere.

Loss of confidence will last lot longer than 6 weeks or so, and perhaps its sports ending for some kids.


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## jrcaesar (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> Do we have any options?


Hit the library and find some good books for him to read. Enjoy the time off.


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## outside! (Jan 19, 2017)

This would also be a good time to practice juggling and first touch.


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## Daniel Miller (Jan 19, 2017)

outside! said:


> This would also be a good time to practice juggling and first touch.


Agree.  Come to practice to work on non-contact drills only.  Come to games to cheer on the team.  And hit the books to catch up on the trig.


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## Surfref (Jan 19, 2017)

First of all you should get the doctor to give you a thumbs up on playing.  If the doctor says it is okay to play, than you will need to pad the cast.  Cal South's rules just say the equipment worn must be safe.  Ask the doctor for a sports/waterproof cast.  Insurance may not pay for the extra $100-$150 cost, but it is well worth it.  The sports cast is lighter weight and can get wet.  My DD swam in the ocean with her sports cast and took showers daily with it on.  Now, go to Home Depot and get a couple 6 foot sections of black hot water pipe insulating foam.  Cut the foam so it extends at least 2 inches past each end of the cast.  The foam has self adhesive tape so it will stick to itself.  Wrap the cast with black electrical tape.  This foam is dense closed cell foam and will provide great protection for the arm and anyone he may hit with it.  It will actually be much softer than an unpadded arm and safer to other players.  Now pray that you get a referee with common sense.  If you the referee will not let the kid play, than have the coach or manager, with kid, go discuss it with the field marshal and referee coordinator.  I saw this last one work very well last year at National Cup when the referee refuse to let the player play.  The referee coordinator and tournament coordinator said the kid could play.

My DD has used the sports cast and the black foam twice.  She was always allowed to play.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jan 19, 2017)

Surfref said:


> First of all you should get the doctor to give you a thumbs up on playing.  If the doctor says it is okay to play, than you will need to pad the cast.  Cal South's rules just say the equipment worn must be safe.  Ask the doctor for a sports/waterproof cast.  Insurance may not pay for the extra $100-$150 cost, but it is well worth it.  The sports cast is lighter weight and can get wet.  My DD swam in the ocean with her sports cast and took showers daily with it on.  Now, go to Home Depot and get a couple 6 foot sections of black hot water pipe insulating foam.  Cut the foam so it extends at least 2 inches past each end of the cast.  The foam has self adhesive tape so it will stick to itself.  Wrap the cast with black electrical tape.  This foam is dense closed cell foam and will provide great protection for the arm and anyone he may hit with it.  It will actually be much softer than an unpadded arm and safer to other players.  Now pray that you get a referee with common sense.  If you the referee will not let the kid play, than have the coach or manager, with kid, go discuss it with the field marshal and referee coordinator.  I saw this last one work very well last year at National Cup when the referee refuse to let the player play.  The referee coordinator and tournament coordinator said the kid could play.
> 
> My DD has used the sports cast and the black foam twice.  She was always allowed to play.


Yes, if your child's doctor has given approval and more importantly your child wants to play let them do so. Though I have witnessed on several occasions the officiating referee deny a player the opportunity to play despite approval from those in charge like a coordinator or tournament director.


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## transplant (Jan 19, 2017)

We went through this recently.  we had 50-50 results in CRL games - totally dependent on the ref.


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## transplant (Jan 19, 2017)

By the way - Cal South rules

2.5.1. No player should be allowed to play in any regularly scheduled league or tournament

game with an injury which can be aggravated by playing or which constitutes a danger to

others.

Sounds like ref discretion.  I know I have seen rules that explicitly say no hard casts.


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## temecs (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we were told yesterday that my child has a buckle fracture on his forearm and needs a hard cast. Does anyone know if he will be allowed to play in State Cup? Do we have any options?  Hard cast or splint?


So we decided to err on the side of caution. The kid is only 10 so there will be many more state cups! The only bummer was the venue was only 10 minutes from our house.


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## Supermodel56 (Jan 19, 2017)

gauchosean said:


> try doing AP homework with a busted writing arm. Best to just ride it out and let it heal.


The kids still have to write? Everything is Google docs and powerpoint now for my DD - no getting out of HW anymore... hah!


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## coachrefparent (Jan 19, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we decided to err on the side of caution. The kid is only 10 so there will be many more state cups! The only bummer was the venue was only 10 minutes from our house.


Smart decision. Now have your child go and support and be a part of the team.


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## Surfref (Jan 19, 2017)

I think you made the right decision. Even though he will not be playing I would still suggest getting the waterproof sports cast.  It just makes life easier.


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## Charlotte's Chauffeur (Jan 20, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I think you made the right decision. Even though he will not be playing I would still suggest getting the waterproof sports cast.  It just makes life easier.


My daughter broke her wrist at the end of December, and now we're in the same boat.  She's been practicing/scrimmaging with a cast protector (https://www.thecastprotector.com/), which seems to be working great!  However, I'm a little worried about the upcoming ref's discretionary determination next weekend in State Cup.  I think I'll bring along bubble wrap and athletic tape to augment the padding in case of a difficult ref.

Regarding a waterproof cast, we asked for this, but the orthopaedic specialist recommended against this because she said it was not as snug as the regular cast lining, and wouldn't provide the same level of protection while playing sports.  I'll bring a large roll of plastic wrap to State Cup to waterproof the cast in the event of rain.


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## jrcaesar (Jan 20, 2017)

Charlotte's Chauffeur said:


> I think I'll bring along bubble wrap and athletic tape to augment the padding in case of a difficult ref.


*No way *I let a child play wearing that "cast protector." Football players have pads and helmets to protect them from the child who hits them with that device, soccer players do not. Have her bring a book.


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## Charlotte's Chauffeur (Jan 20, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> *No way *I let a child play wearing that "cast protector." Football players have pads and helmets to protect them from the child who hits them with that device, soccer players do not. Have her bring a book.


She's not a danger to anyone padded.  Unlike a defensive lineman in the NFL, my 9-year old daughter doesn't pummel her opponent with her forearm (with or without a cast) nor does she wildly flail her arms about while dribbling the soccer ball.


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## jrcaesar (Jan 20, 2017)

Look, I wish you luck at State Cup, but 9-year-old shouldn't be playing in a cast. Too many variables in play, not the least of which is it's more work for the referee to "sell" the idea to opposing coaches and parents that this is safe. No thanks.


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## Daniel Miller (Jan 20, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> Look, I wish you luck at State Cup, but 9-year-old shouldn't be playing in a cast. Too many variables in play, not the least of which is it's more work for the referee to "sell" the idea to opposing coaches and parents that this is safe. No thanks.


I don't often agree with JrCaesar, but he has it right.


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## Woodwork (Jan 20, 2017)

Adding 2-3 lbs of semi-solid material to the end of an arm, the other players are definitely going to notice.  Every player has some kind of incidental contact with arms of other players which isn't a problem usually.  But a cast will make a difference.

Players can't where jewelry or watches, boxing gloves or brass knuckles during a game regardless of whether they promise not to use them.  I don't know why there should be an exception for 3lbs of plaster. 

Your kids can miss a few games.  It isn't a big deal.  I grew up with kids who broke arms and collar bones and didn't play during that time, but then went on to play D1 college.

Also, how about letting little Jimmy who has been waiting on the bench all season for this moment to get in?  Stop being so selfish!


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## Gasman (Jan 20, 2017)

Everyone has it right.  Rest her.  She will have more State Cups in her future.   I'm actually surprised her orthopod cleared her, usually they are very conservative.


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## Surfref (Jan 20, 2017)

What have you people been smoking?  A padded arm cast is safer than an arm with no cast and no padding.  The elbow and forearm are a lot harder than that padded cast.  I have seen many players get injured from being hit by a forearm or elbow, but have never seen a player get injured from being hit by a properly padded cast. 

And, a properly made forearm cast only weighs between 1-2 pounds with a sports cast coming in at only a pound.


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## jrcaesar (Jan 20, 2017)

Surfref said:


> A padded arm cast is safer than an arm with no cast and no padding.


Of course that's not true: The 9-year-old wearing the giant https://www.thecastprotector.com/ will not have the same balance or coordination as she would with no cast.  _(If she's 15, then yeah ...)_

But don't you think, as the senior ref here, that the 9-year-old is going to be prevented from playing by more referees than not? Isn't the idea to offer the best answer here to the earlier question? At State Cup, the check-ins are at the field by the referees.


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## Woodwork (Jan 20, 2017)

Surfref said:


> What have you people been smoking?  A padded arm cast is safer than an arm with no cast and no padding.  The elbow and forearm are a lot harder than that padded cast.  I have seen many players get injured from being hit by a forearm or elbow, but have never seen a player get injured from being hit by a properly padded cast.
> 
> And, a properly made forearm cast only weighs between 1-2 pounds with a sports cast coming in at only a pound.


I assume you are a referee.  Please explain why a kid can't wear a livestrong wristband but a 1/2 arm cast with a fractured or broken arm underneath is okay not just for the player but also for the opposing players.  I'm seriously curious.


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## TangoCity (Jan 20, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> Look, I wish you luck at State Cup, but 9-year-old shouldn't be playing in a cast. Too many variables in play, not the least of which is it's more work for the referee to "sell" the idea to opposing coaches and parents that this is safe. No thanks.


This is correct.  Had a child with a bubble wrapped hard cast playing against us once and he/she was waiving the thing all over the place, hitting our defenders with it.  Nobody got hurt but it definitely was an advantage to have a heavy object to hit other people with.


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## watfly (Jan 20, 2017)

It benefits no one to have a the child play with a broken arm.  I think we've really lost our perspective on youth sports when we promote having kids play injured.  Unfortunately, I think its a result, in part, of this culture where we want to protect our kids from disappointment, so we ignore common sense and allow our child to play injured so he/she will not "miss out" on State Cup.


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## Surfref (Jan 20, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> Of course that's not true: The 9-year-old wearing the giant https://www.thecastprotector.com/ will not have the same balance or coordination as she would with no cast.  _(If she's 15, then yeah ...)_
> 
> But don't you think, as the senior ref here, that the 9-year-old is going to be prevented from playing by more referees than not? Isn't the idea to offer the best answer here to the earlier question? At State Cup, the check-ins are at the field by the referees.


This was part of one of our monthly ref training last year.  We were told to let the players play.  This question came up at one of the National Cup referee briefs last year and we were told to let the players play.  I think that 99 percent of referees will allow the player, with a padded cast, to play.  If the referee says no, than the manager or coach should address the issue with the Cal South field coordinator and referee coordinator.  That player will get to play especially if the cast is properly padded.  And, a cast only adds 1-3 pounds to the arm.  It is not like the have 10lbs of plaster on their arms. I have allowed many player to play with unpacked cast and have had no problems.


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## watfly (Jan 21, 2017)

By all means, pad up lil Johnny and then place the burden on your Coach or Manager to argue with the ref and the coordinators of the benefit of an injured player playing with a club arm, all the while your teammates and opponent patiently wait for snowflake to be cleared so he doesn't miss out on State Cup.  It's important to teach this "me first" entitlement mentality early.


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## timbuck (Jan 21, 2017)

What does your coach say?
As a coach, I wouldn't let a kid play if they were in a hard cast. I'd let them practice if the doc cleared them, but I wouldn't put them into a game. 
A brace or soft cast, I'd be more apt to let her play. (And I know a cast provides more support than a brace).


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## Sparky9 (Jan 21, 2017)

State cup is over rated. Unless your kid is on a top 5 team that has a real shot to win it all, its just another event with some more games.  Think how dumb you will feel in the ER explaining how good you padded her cast and how important those games were.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> 99.9% that referee will not allow your kid to play with a cast, but there is always 0.01%


Not true.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

Surfref said:


> First of all you should get the doctor to give you a thumbs up on playing.  If the doctor says it is okay to play, than you will need to pad the cast.  Cal South's rules just say the equipment worn must be safe.  Ask the doctor for a sports/waterproof cast.  Insurance may not pay for the extra $100-$150 cost, but it is well worth it.  The sports cast is lighter weight and can get wet.  My DD swam in the ocean with her sports cast and took showers daily with it on.  Now, go to Home Depot and get a couple 6 foot sections of black hot water pipe insulating foam.  Cut the foam so it extends at least 2 inches past each end of the cast.  The foam has self adhesive tape so it will stick to itself.  Wrap the cast with black electrical tape.  This foam is dense closed cell foam and will provide great protection for the arm and anyone he may hit with it.  It will actually be much softer than an unpadded arm and safer to other players.  Now pray that you get a referee with common sense.  If you the referee will not let the kid play, than have the coach or manager, with kid, go discuss it with the field marshal and referee coordinator.  I saw this last one work very well last year at National Cup when the referee refuse to let the player play.  The referee coordinator and tournament coordinator said the kid could play.
> 
> My DD has used the sports cast and the black foam twice.  She was always allowed to play.


The field marshal and referee coordinator can reason with the referee and try to convince him but they cannot overrule his decision. Second, I have seen casts wrapped in the manner you describe and, from appearances it seemed more unsafe than if it hadn't been thus wrapped. I just told the kid to take off the extra wrapping and come play. The opposing coach said he will file a protest if I allowed the kid to play with the cast. I let the kid play. Except for his chastisement of me as a person without kids' safety at heart, I have yet to hear anything further. I can't help but wonder though, how come before the proliferation of law suits orthopedists hadn't discovered medical contraindications to playing with casts?


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we decided to err on the side of caution. The kid is only 10 so there will be many more state cups! The only bummer was the venue was only 10 minutes from our house.


10? My bad. I wouldn't let the either.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

Woodwork said:


> I assume you are a referee.  Please explain why a kid can't wear a livestrong wristband but a 1/2 arm cast with a fractured or broken arm underneath is okay not just for the player but also for the opposing players.  I'm seriously curious.


I can answer on his behalf. The LOTG says no livestrong wristband or any other jewelry, (although I sometimes see that as going overboard), but leaves the discretion to the referee to determine the safety of the cast. Those of us who came up playing this sport, either through personal experience or the experiences others through the many generations who have played with casts without issue, do not see the cast as a major safety issue. We do not see the cast as making the arm any harder than it already is. The elbow or the knee is pretty hard.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

watfly said:


> It benefits no one to have a the child play with a broken arm.  I think we've really lost our perspective on youth sports when we promote having kids play injured.  Unfortunately, I think its a result, in part, of this culture where we want to protect our kids from disappointment, so we ignore common sense and allow our child to play injured so he/she will not "miss out" on State Cup.


Kids have played with casts from time immemorial.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

Sparky9 said:


> State cup is over rated. Unless your kid is on a top 5 team that has a real shot to win it all, its just another event with some more games.  Think how dumb you will feel in the ER explaining how good you padded her cast and how important those games were.


Your ER scenario is overrated.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

transplant said:


> We went through this recently.  we had 50-50 results in CRL games - totally dependent on the ref.


CRL, SCDSL and state cup leave it to referee discretion. CSL says no hard casts whatsoever. 

If it explicitly says in competition rules that casts are not allowed then the kid will not be allowed to play with a cast regardless what anyone else says.


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## Sparky9 (Jan 21, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Your ER scenario is overrated.


Contrarian. If you disagree with me then you make my point valid. My kid broke her arm close to her growth plate this year and missed 14 games. Her arm is healed perfectly and is back playing. Seen too many kids rush back in after an injury and get hurt again for longer.  Letting your body heal is never a bad decision.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 21, 2017)

Sparky9 said:


> Contrarian. If you disagree with me then you make my point valid. My kid broke her arm close to her growth plate this year and missed 14 games. Her arm is healed perfectly and is back playing. Seen too many kids rush back in after an injury and get hurt again for longer.  Letting your body heal is never a bad decision.


Liar.


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## zebrafish (Jan 22, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Your ER scenario is overrated.


Actually, it's not.
Depending on where the fracture is, even a hard cast isn't completely protective of an injury. It is relatively protective.
This is why frequently forearm fractures may be casted above the elbow for several weeks until a callous forms and they are stable to the simple movement of the elbow and shortening of the cast to below the elbow (but not stable to a hard fall onto the cast/arm).
I think it is ludicrous to have your kid play with a hard cast, purely for the issue of additional (and unnecessary) injury risk
As I coach, I wouldn't allow it (but fortunately the league had very clear rules on this).
I've seen a few kids play with various iterations of padded forearms, and every single time the cast has been used as a blunt object against other players--- intentionally or not I do not know


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## Flipthrow (Jan 22, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Liar.


Sphincter says what?


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## devupa2.0 (Jan 22, 2017)

temecs said:


> So we were told yesterday that my child has a buckle fracture on his forearm and needs a hard cast. Does anyone know if he will be allowed to play in State Cup? Do we have any options?  Hard cast or splint?


My daughter broke her hand in an SCDSL game this last fall. She was put in a hard cast that went around the hand and about half-way up her forearm.

Initially she was resigned to participating in the non-contact portion of practices and missing the rest, including the remaining league games. However, after the first practice back she said she thought she could move pretty well and wanted to try putting bubble wrap on the cast to be able to play.

We bought the big bubble wrap and wrapped her whole hand/arm before practices and games. Ultimately, she was able to play in all but one game based on the discretion of the referees. She was pretty happy about it because our base assumption was that the referees would not let her play, so she never really expected to be in the game.

This was her first year with the team and this really just allowed her to stay connected with the girls on the field and continue to grow in understanding. She was definitely always aware of the cast and not nearly as aggressive as normal. So, it impacted the way she played (as you would expect).

Our experience really reflects what others have said. It was totally based on the discretion of the referees in each game and we were fine with that. She was going to be at the games anyway to support her team.


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## Surfref (Jan 23, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> The field marshal and referee coordinator can reason with the referee and try to convince him but they cannot overrule his decision.....


At Oceanside older SC last year I saw Leo and the other ref coordinator overrule a ref. His words to the ref were, "Let the kid play."  The ref didn't seem very happy, but the kid played. Lee even sat their in his cart and watched part of the game. We were told in the morning ref meeting that casts were allowed, so evidently that ref had not been listening.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> At Oceanside older SC last year I saw Leo and the other ref coordinator overrule a ref. His words to the ref were, "Let the kid play."  The ref didn't seem very happy, but the kid played. Lee even sat their in his cart and watched part of the game. We were told in the morning ref meeting that casts were allowed, so evidently that ref had not been listening.


I do not doubt what you're saying but the referee still has final say. If the referee says no, it's no regardless what anyone else says.


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## espola (Jan 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> At Oceanside older SC last year I saw Leo and the other ref coordinator overrule a ref. His words to the ref were, "Let the kid play."  The ref didn't seem very happy, but the kid played. Lee even sat their in his cart and watched part of the game. We were told in the morning ref meeting that casts were allowed, so evidently that ref had not been listening.





Just a Parent said:


> I do not doubt what you're saying but the referee still has final say. If the referee says no, it's no regardless what anyone else says.


I hope you guys sort this out before the weekend.


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## TangoCity (Jan 23, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> I do not doubt what you're saying but the referee still has final say. If the referee says no, it's no regardless what anyone else says.


Correct.  Ref has FINAL say.  Could get replaced and or blacklisted by not doing what the ref coordinator told him to do.  And just because some "Ref Coordinator" says to let the kid play... doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do!


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## espola (Jan 23, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Correct.  Ref has FINAL say.  Could get replaced and or blacklisted by not doing what the ref coordinator told him to do.  And just because some "Ref Coordinator" says to let the kid play... doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do!


I am reminded of the charity tournament recently where the Tournament Director fired Dr. A right off the field because he wasn't going to let a little girl play with her glasses on, after she had played with them in her two previous games.


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## watfly (Jan 23, 2017)

The added bonus of having your Coach or Manager runoff to the Ref Coordinator to prove you're more right than the ref, is now you have ingratiated your team with the ref right before kickoff.


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## espola (Jan 23, 2017)

watfly said:


> The added bonus of having your Coach or Manager runoff to the Ref Coordinator to prove you're more right than the ref, is now you have ingratiated your team with the ref right before kickoff.


Standing up for your rights in the face of authority is the American way.

So be sure to check out your referee's accent first.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

espola said:


> I hope you guys sort this out before the weekend.


"These things" have been sorted out for years.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Correct.  Ref has FINAL say.  Could get replaced and or blacklisted by not doing what the ref coordinator told him to do.  And just because some "Ref Coordinator" says to let the kid play... doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do!


Not for state or national cup.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

espola said:


> Standing up for your rights in the face of authority is the American way.
> 
> So be sure to check out your referee's accent first.


Right . .


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

espola said:


> I am reminded of the charity tournament recently where the Tournament Director fired Dr. A right off the field because he wasn't going to let a little girl play with her glasses on, after she had played with them in her two previous games.


The things you've written about this so called Dr. A right are just astounding. If one were to come up with a caricarization of an imperious, clownish referee, I don't see how anyone can top it. For instance, how did he come up with this latest nonsense? Certainly not from the LOTG.


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## Surfref (Jan 23, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> The things you've written about this so called Dr. A right are just astounding. If one were to come up with a caricarization of an imperious, clownish referee, I don't see how anyone can top it. For instance, how did he come up with this latest nonsense? Certainly not from the LOTG.


I have to stick up for E.  His comments about the Doc are correct.  I was told that he finally hug up the whistle.  Unfortunately it appears the Doc has not changed with the times.  He was a Grade 5 at one time many, many, many years ago and seems to have taken his 15 and not adapted to the changing LOTG and times.  I saw him a couple years ago Yellow card a HS age player that entered the field as a substitute about two yards to the side of the center line.  He told the coach the player had entered the field incorrectly as a sub.  I have seen him do some other crazy stuff on several occasions.  A few years ago I got an assignment to work with him and declined the games.  Luckily the assignor understood and put me on other games.

There is You Tube video out there of the incident E was talking about.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I have to stick up for E.  His comments about the Doc are correct.  I was told that he finally hug up the whistle.  Unfortunately it appears the Doc has not changed with the times.  He was a Grade 5 at one time many, many, many years ago and seems to have taken his 15 and not adapted to the changing LOTG and times.  I saw him a couple years ago Yellow card a HS age player that entered the field as a substitute about two yards to the side of the center line.  He told the coach the player had entered the field incorrectly as a sub.  I have seen him do some other crazy stuff on several occasions.  A few years ago I got an assignment to work with him and declined the games.  Luckily the assignor understood and put me on other games.
> 
> There is You Tube video out there of the incident E was talking about.


Much more than now, back then, in order to get to grade 5 you had to be able to use much more common sense and be practical, be able to work within or even stretch the LOTG to the utmost to make sure your influence on the game is that much more minimal. You were expected not to be a slave of the technically correct over practicality. I know referees that could recite the whole book, (they used to have over 100 pages then, with all the IBD explanations), by heart, but could never get to grade 5 because they were not practical. They wanted to apply the laws robotically and without common sense. And they knew their stuff. Now, it seems, these qualities are only expected of national referees or higher. 

How did this Dr. Whatever make it? And how have assignors let him get away with this disgrace to the sport for so long?


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

zebrafish said:


> Actually, it's not.
> Depending on where the fracture is, even a hard cast isn't completely protective of an injury. It is relatively protective.
> This is why frequently forearm fractures may be casted above the elbow for several weeks until a callous forms and they are stable to the simple movement of the elbow and shortening of the cast to below the elbow (but not stable to a hard fall onto the cast/arm).
> I think it is ludicrous to have your kid play with a hard cast, purely for the issue of additional (and unnecessary) injury risk
> ...


Actually it is. 

As long as the joint above and below the fracture are immobilized, there is not any additional risk than there would have been had there not been a fracture. Believe me, I know.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 23, 2017)

watfly said:


> By all means, pad up lil Johnny and then place the burden on your Coach or Manager to argue with the ref and the coordinators of the benefit of an injured player playing with a club arm, all the while your teammates and opponent patiently wait for snowflake to be cleared so he doesn't miss out on State Cup.  It's important to teach this "me first" entitlement mentality early.


Who told you the discussion on this is going to delay the game?


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## watfly (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Who told you the discussion on this is going to delay the game?


Ashley Judd...she seems like a reasonable source.


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## outside! (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Actually it is.
> 
> As long as the joint above and below the fracture are immobilized, there is not any additional risk than there would have been had there not been a fracture. Believe me, I know.


Many times the cast is just on the forearm, leaving the elbow mobile. If the break is in the forearm, a cast will prevent bending moments, but will not prevent compression or tension on the fracture area.


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## zebrafish (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Actually it is.
> 
> As long as the joint above and below the fracture are immobilized, there is not any additional risk than there would have been had there not been a fracture. Believe me, I know.


Um... ok. But exactly how many kids are going to play in a soccer game with an immobilized elbow? 

If ulna and/or radius are fractured, then by your own statement you'd need to immobilize the joint "above" (and most people who really _knew_ would involuntarily use the term _proximal)_ -- which is the elbow---for complete protection.

I would argue that forearm cast (which allows elbow mobility) does not provide full protection to areas in question. Playing in a forearm cast with fingers exposed is also a great way to break a finger when you fall onto that outstretched hand and can't bend your wrist in a full-contact game. But that is only my _knowing_ opinion. You are welcome to yours, by all means.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

outside! said:


> Many times the cast is just on the forearm, leaving the elbow mobile. If the break is in the forearm, a cast will prevent bending moments, but will not prevent compression or tension on the fracture area.





zebrafish said:


> Um... ok. But exactly how many kids are going to play in a soccer game with an immobilized elbow?
> 
> If ulna and/or radius are fractured, then by your own statement you'd need to immobilize the joint "above" (and most people who really _knew_ would involuntarily use the term _proximal)_ -- which is the elbow---for complete protection.
> 
> I would argue that forearm cast (which allows elbow mobility) does not provide full protection to areas in question. Playing in a forearm cast with fingers exposed is also a great way to break a finger when you fall onto that outstretched hand and can't bend your wrist in a full-contact game. But that is only my _knowing_ opinion. You are welcome to yours, by all means.


Talking of "knowing", most people who really "knew" would involuntarily use humeroradial joint instead of elbow and antibrachium instead of the forearm. They wouldn't use fingers either. They would involuntarilily call them phalanges. Did I say they wouldn't use "wrist" either? But having being a practioner in this field for only 40 years or so myself, I must say, you really know your stuff. Kudos!!

But having said all this, unbeknown to you, you just answered your own question. If you see a kid with a cast covering just part of the forearm, you can almost be certain the kid does not have a Colle's fracture. Do you know what the commonest fractures are for this type of immobilization dear?


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

outside! said:


> Many times the cast is just on the forearm, leaving the elbow mobile. If the break is in the forearm, a cast will prevent bending moments, but will not prevent compression or tension on the fracture area.


No one would apply the cast to just the forearm if the fracture is in the forearm.


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## outside! (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> No one would apply the cast to just the forearm if the fracture is in the forearm.


Fair enough, what type of fracture gets a forearm cast? I assume the wrist area? While the cast will prevent the wrist from bending, I don't see how it protects from compression or tension (which are somewhat unlikely) loads. Do those types of loads promote healing?

My son once fractured his arm just above the wrist the day before rec season started practice. He sat out from all contact drills and games until he got the cast off. We didn't even ask the doctor if he could play.


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## espola (Jan 24, 2017)

outside! said:


> Fair enough, what type of fracture gets a forearm cast? I assume the wrist area? While the cast will prevent the wrist from bending, I don't see how it protects from compression or tension (which are somewhat unlikely) loads. Do those types of loads promote healing?
> 
> My son once fractured his arm just above the wrist the day before rec season started practice. He sat out from all contact drills and games until he got the cast off. We didn't even ask the doctor if he could play.


My son broke both bones in his left forearm - fell while running backward in tall grass at UCSD and landed on the arm.  He got a cast over the entire forearm looped over the thumb.  Actually he got the cast three times - one in the ER the night it happened, one the next day because Children's Hospital doc didn't like the way it had been set, one a week later when they still didn't like it.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

outside! said:


> Fair enough, what type of fracture gets a forearm cast? I assume the wrist area? While the cast will prevent the wrist from bending, I don't see how it protects from compression or tension (which are somewhat unlikely) loads. Do those types of loads promote healing?
> 
> My son once fractured his arm just above the wrist the day before rec season started practice. He sat out from all contact drills and games until he got the cast off. We didn't even ask the doctor if he could play.


Fractures of the bones around the wrist, carpal bones and dislocations. The hand is cashed in a "functional position" with the wrist flexed at 35-40 degrees, which should allow for pretty normal function .


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## smellycleats (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Fractures of the bones around the wrist, carpal bones and dislocations. The hand is cashed in a "functional position" with the wrist flexed at 35-40 degrees, which should allow for pretty normal function .


Flexed 35 to 40 degrees in a cast? Really? You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm guessing you're a chiropractor. Jump on google real quick check "functional position".


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

smellycleats said:


> Flexed 35 to 40 degrees in a cast? Really? You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm guessing you're a chiropractor. Jump on google real quick check "functional position".





smellycleats said:


> Flexed 35 to 40 degrees in a cast? Really? You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm guessing you're a chiropractor. Jump on google real quick check "functional position".


Oh, I could have said dorsiflexed, but what good would that have made to the average reader? Second, why in the world would I look for medical information at Google real?


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## smellycleats (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> Oh, I could have said dorsiflexed, but what good would that have made to the average reader? Second, why in the world would I look for medical information at Google real?


Why not? It seems to have served you well so far. You don't use the term dorsiflexion to describe motion of the wrist. Dorsiflexion, plantarflexion refer to the ankle.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

smellycleats said:


> Why not? It seems to have served you well so far. You don't use the term dorsiflexion to describe motion of the wrist. Dorsiflexion, plantarflexion refer to the ankle.


In the olden days we called it volar flexion. For your Google that would be extension.


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## smellycleats (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> In the olden days we called it volar flexion. For your Google that would be extension.


Olden days of what field? Massage therapy?


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

smellycleats said:


> Olden days of what field? Massage therapy?


What's massage therapy? 

Is that from "Google real" again?


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## smellycleats (Jan 24, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> What's massage therapy?
> 
> Is that from "Google real" again?


My point is,  maybe you shouldn't condescend to others and dispense medical advice if you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

smellycleats said:


> My point is,  maybe you shouldn't condescend to others and dispense medical advice if you have no idea what you're talking about.


To an ignoramus such as yourself, it may appear as if that is what I'm doing but I'm simply stating the obvious.


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## pewpew (Jan 24, 2017)

Just A Parent...Why is it you can spell all of the important medical terms correctly but you can't spell some of the basic words in your posts the right way? For someone who has spent years in the field you are either a NP or a  PA w/HUA (Figure out that term) or an Orthopedist with  really bad spelling and terrible reading comprehension who just squeaked by in Med School. "smelly cleats" said to jump on Google real quick. You asked why would you bother looking for medical info on 'Google real'. Before that "espola" said they fired 'Dr. A' right off the field. You referred to him as 'Dr. A right'. I think you really are gathering all of your info off of Google!! THUN THUN THUN!! 
Yeah I'm just stirring the pot. But for the record...I wouldn't want anyone with a cast playing in a game against my kid. My kid is a GK and although I've seen her take plenty of hits on the field, I'd rather not see the outcome of her against a striker after she takes a forearm to the face from a cast, padded or not.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled program of "Forum Posters vs J.A.P." in the great cast debate.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 24, 2017)

pewpew said:


> Just A Parent...Why is it you can spell all of the important medical terms correctly but you can't spell some of the basic words in your posts the right way? For someone who has spent years in the field you are either a NP or a  PA w/HUA (Figure out that term) or an Orthopedist with  really bad spelling and terrible reading comprehension who just squeaked by in Med School. "smelly cleats" said to jump on Google real quick. You asked why would you bother looking for medical info on 'Google real'. Before that "espola" said they fired 'Dr. A' right off the field. You referred to him as 'Dr. A right'. I think you really are gathering all of your info off of Google!! THUN THUN THUN!!
> Yeah I'm just stirring the pot. But for the record...I wouldn't want anyone with a cast playing in a game against my kid. My kid is a GK and although I've seen her take plenty of hits on the field, I'd rather not see the outcome of her against a striker after she takes a forearm to the face from a cast, padded or not.
> I now return you to your regularly scheduled program of "Forum Posters vs J.A.P." in the great cast debate.


Google hey? OK. 

But as far as you not wanting anyone playing with a cast against your son, that is your prerogative, just as it is the referee's prerogative to allow or not allow a cast.


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## watfly (Jan 25, 2017)

The OP in the immediate aftermath of his/her child breaking their arm inquired about playing with a cast (I can understand how he/she felt in the moment).  After giving it some time and looks like going to the orthopod,  he/she logically determined that it wasn't the best idea to have their child play with a broken arm.

Ironically, its some of the refs, the very ones charged with player safety, that continue to promote having a child play injured. What's even more fascinating is its some of the same refs that when some parent is upset about refs, tells the complainers something to the effect of "its just kids playing soccer, its not life or death, get over it".   Having perspective works both ways.

CalNorth doesn't allow any hard casts even with padding.  Maybe its time CalSouth implemented the same policy, it would certainly take all the subjectivity out of the issue.


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## Just a Parent (Jan 25, 2017)

watfly said:


> The OP in the immediate aftermath of his/her child breaking their arm inquired about playing with a cast (I can understand how he/she felt in the moment).  After giving it some time and looks like going to the orthopod,  he/she logically determined that it wasn't the best idea to have their child play with a broken arm.
> 
> Ironically, its some of the refs, the very ones charged with player safety, that continue to promote having a child play injured. What's even more fascinating is its some of the same refs that when some parent is upset about refs, tells the complainers something to the effect of "its just kids playing soccer, its not life or death, get over it".   Having perspective works both ways.
> 
> CalNorth doesn't allow any hard casts even with padding.  Maybe its time CalSouth implemented the same policy, it would certainly take all the subjectivity out of the issue.


One can choose to play in leagues in CalSouth that do not allow hard casts, like CSL. One can also decide not to play their kid if the kid has a cast.


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## watfly (Jan 25, 2017)

Just a Parent said:


> One can choose to play in leagues in CalSouth that do not allow hard casts, like CSL. One can also decide not to play their kid if the kid has a cast.


Fortunately most parents, coaches and refs err on the side of caution so its a rare occurence.


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