# State Cup $$ Grab Continues



## coachrefparent (Mar 9, 2018)

Olders pay the same reg fee as youngers, but only get a round of 32 after pool play. What a rip-off.


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## Josep (Mar 9, 2018)

You don’t have to play it.  Consider that.


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## MWN (Mar 9, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Olders pay the same reg fee as youngers, but only get a round of 32 after pool play. What a rip-off.


I'm surprised as a ref you don't see why.  The younger games are on smaller fields and shorter minutes.  Thus, the field fees and referee fees are less per game.  The referee fees for 7v7 are even less because of 1 referee at the earlier rounds.  The olders are on full sized fields and longer games, thus, the field fees are more expensive and referee fees are more.  There are fewer games because there are fewer older teams compared to their younger counterparts.


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## Kicker4Life (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'm surprised as a ref you don't see why.  The younger games are on smaller fields and shorter minutes.  Thus, the field fees and referee fees are less per game.  The referee fees for 7v7 are even less because of 1 referee at the earlier rounds.  The olders are on full sized fields and longer games, thus, the field fees are more expensive and referee fees are more.  There are fewer games because there are fewer older teams compared to their younger counterparts.


Logic.....it’s a beautiful thing!


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## espola (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'm surprised as a ref you don't see why.  The younger games are on smaller fields and shorter minutes.  Thus, the field fees and referee fees are less per game.  The referee fees for 7v7 are even less because of 1 referee at the earlier rounds.  The olders are on full sized fields and longer games, thus, the field fees are more expensive and referee fees are more.  There are fewer games because there are fewer older teams compared to their younger counterparts.


Referee fees are split between the two teams, so younger teams actually pay less since they play shorter games.

http://www.calsouth.com/en/referee-fees/


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## timbuck (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'm surprised as a ref you don't see why.  The younger games are on smaller fields and shorter minutes.  Thus, the field fees and referee fees are less per game.  The referee fees for 7v7 are even less because of 1 referee at the earlier rounds.  The olders are on full sized fields and longer games, thus, the field fees are more expensive and referee fees are more.  There are fewer games because there are fewer older teams compared to their younger counterparts.


Ref fees are NOT included in your State Cup registration fee.


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## Frank (Mar 9, 2018)

How dare an organization try and make money to support its activities? scm    As an older parent for $875 to potentially play 3-10 games is an outstanding price.  Most of these tournaments at the olders are $1200+ for 3-4 games.


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## MWN (Mar 9, 2018)

@espola and @timbuck 

Yes, I forgot referee fees are split, my bad.  I'll note that Cal South does pay the referee fees in only 1 instance  ... the 4th Referee in the final round, but that amount is relatively insignificant to the overall budget.  

That said, the ultimate point is not lost ... it costs more to put on older games than it does younger games.  Field utilization is simply lower with the olders because you can only cycle 4-5 games per field in the winter at 90 minutes per game, versus 6-7 games per field at 60 minutes per game (youngers).  After bracket play, Cal South also has to allow more time between games to account for overtime and kicks from the mark because ties are not allowed.

At $650 (Mayor-Governors) to $750 (Presidents) to $875 (National) the fees are not terrible.  The winners of Presidents and National get their expenses paid to attend the regional and national tournaments, there is medical available and overall its a well run tournament.

Remember, this is a fundraiser for Cal South, which uses the funds to support the growth of youth and adult soccer in SoCal.


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## espola (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> @espola and @timbuck
> 
> Yes, I forgot referee fees are split, my bad.  I'll note that Cal South does pay the referee fees in only 1 instance  ... the 4th Referee in the final round, but that amount is relatively insignificant to the overall budget.
> 
> ...


"The winners of Presidents and National get their expenses paid to attend the regional and national tournaments"?  I did not know that.  I know that in the past Cal South kicked in some money for teams playing on, but I don't believe it ever came close to all the expenses (unless the later rounds were in Cal South).


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## MWN (Mar 9, 2018)

espola said:


> "The winners of Presidents and National get their expenses paid to attend the regional and national tournaments"?  I did not know that.  I know that in the past Cal South kicked in some money for teams playing on, but I don't believe it ever came close to all the expenses (unless the later rounds were in Cal South).


In 2014 it was roughly $4,400 per team (http://www.calsouth.com/es/news-detail/254-year.2014_254-id.209717250.html#.WqLPROjwaUk) for regionals and $5,725 in 2015 (http://www.calsouth.com/en/news-detail/254-id.209717489.html#.WqLQaejwaUk)

In 2015, it was 10k per team for national finals (http://www.calsouth.com/es/news-detail/254-year.2015_254-id.209717494.html#.WqLP4-jwaUk)

Bottom line, those teams moving on to Regionals and National Finals are heavily subsidized by Cal South.  The funds may not cover parent travel, but they certainly help offset significant costs related to player and coach travel and hotels.


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## hattrick3 (Mar 9, 2018)

I heard CRL winners would receive $6000/team for regionals this year.  It’s great but when regionals is in Honolulu, $6000 will probably only cover 2-3 players’ expenses.  

BTW what heppens when a team wins both CRL and National Cup? Dose Cal South also send the second team to regionals?  If so, the second of CRL or National Cup?  Does the winning team receive additional money for winning national cup?


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## espola (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> In 2014 it was roughly $4,400 per team (http://www.calsouth.com/es/news-detail/254-year.2014_254-id.209717250.html#.WqLPROjwaUk) for regionals and $5,725 in 2015 (http://www.calsouth.com/en/news-detail/254-id.209717489.html#.WqLQaejwaUk)
> 
> In 2015, it was 10k per team for national finals (http://www.calsouth.com/es/news-detail/254-year.2015_254-id.209717494.html#.WqLP4-jwaUk)
> 
> Bottom line, those teams moving on to Regionals and National Finals are heavily subsidized by Cal South.  The funds may not cover parent travel, but they certainly help offset significant costs related to player and coach travel and hotels.


I would take a team almost anywhere in the country on $10k.  Then make the parents pay to bring them back.


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## hattrick3 (Mar 9, 2018)

I was curious, so I checked the airfare to honolulu from lax in june. It’s around $750 for a round trip.  wow..it’s an expensive trip. For a team of say 15 players and a coach, it costs $12k just for the flights.


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## MWN (Mar 9, 2018)

hattrick3 said:


> I was curious, so I checked the airfare to honolulu from lax in june. It’s around $750 for a round trip.  wow..it’s an expensive trip. For a team of say 15 players and a coach, it costs $12k just for the flights.


Just keep in mind that group rates (10+) tend to be anywhere from 25% to 50% discounted off of regular published rates depending on time of year and airline.


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## espola (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> Just keep in mind that group rates (10+) tend to be anywhere from 25% to 50% discounted off of regular published rates depending on time of year and airline.


The problem with getting group rates is that the winners don't know they will need them until a few days before.


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## MWN (Mar 9, 2018)

espola said:


> The problem with getting group rates is that the winners don't know they will need them until a few days before.


Yes, BUT, alot of this has already been pre-negotiated by US Youth Soccer through the host travel company.  The Hotels room block is already reserved, the travel company retained and ready to fill the discounted flights.  Teams can choose to not fly (e.g. to Frisco, TX) to save some money, but the deals are already done shortly after the bid is awarded.  For example:

National Cup 2020 Bid Solicitation:
https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/FileDownload.aspx?D=C4/jiVOJ6ruZk/RCS7pGUuvPlI3ORbi7wdhjnOSNomM=

"Housing US Youth Soccer or a US Youth Soccer designee will solicit and coordinate housing accommodations and enter into agreements with the housing properties. US Youth Soccer, or its designee, is responsible for blocking rooms for teams, referees, US Youth Soccer Board of Directors, National Staff, the National Presidents Cup Committee, and other VIPs. US Youth Soccer or its designee will also arrange for hospitality and meeting rooms at those hotels as needed. The LOC shall identify housing for US Youth Soccer to consider."

Typically, the US Youth Soccer travel group will then go out and get an open group discount rate from an airline or two that can me passed on to the participating teams.  One a team qualifies, as part of the registration process, that team's manager is presented with a menu of hotels and other discounted amenities.


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## GunninGopher (Mar 9, 2018)

espola said:


> I would take a team almost anywhere in the country on $10k.  Then make the parents pay to bring them back.


I think you might get stuck with some kids for a while unless you're charging for child care. I could use a break!!!


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## espola (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> Yes, BUT, alot of this has already been pre-negotiated by US Youth Soccer through the host travel company.  The Hotels room block is already reserved, the travel company retained and ready to fill the discounted flights.  Teams can choose to not fly (e.g. to Frisco, TX) to save some money, but the deals are already done shortly after the bid is awarded.  For example:
> 
> National Cup 2020 Bid Solicitation:
> https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/FileDownload.aspx?D=C4/jiVOJ6ruZk/RCS7pGUuvPlI3ORbi7wdhjnOSNomM=
> ...


That depends -- When we went to the USL Super-20 Nationals in Rockford, Illinois in 2009, we got discounted hotel rates by staying at the headquarters hotel and doubling/tripling up players.  We saved even more by half the team staying at one player's uncle's house (single-dad college professor with 2 teenage daughters*) just over the line in Wisconsin.  In the same year (or the year before, perhaps) the Western Regional playoffs were held in Albuquerque, and the organizing committee there arranged stay-to-play hotels at least 20% over open market rate.

*The Professor sent his daughters off to stay in a neighbor's place for the week, and good thing, too because they were still there the day the players arrived, and the boys had a hard time ignoring the girls playing on their backyard trampoline.


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## hattrick3 (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> Yes, BUT, alot of this has already been pre-negotiated by US Youth Soccer through the host travel company.  The Hotels room block is already reserved, the travel company retained and ready to fill the discounted flights.  Teams can choose to not fly (e.g. to Frisco, TX) to save some money, but the deals are already done shortly after the bid is awarded.  For example:
> 
> National Cup 2020 Bid Solicitation:
> https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/FileDownload.aspx?D=C4/jiVOJ6ruZk/RCS7pGUuvPlI3ORbi7wdhjnOSNomM=
> ...



My friend show me the list of the hotels in Hawaii for regionals (his DD is going).  Most of them charge daily resort fees and parking, so even the cheapest room is $200+/night and goes all the way up to over $300/night.  Those are discounted rates...   Isn’t regionals a week-long tournament? I’m guessing most teams will be staying for 8-9 nights there.

I’m sure cheaper rooms are taken by CRL winners, so National cup winners are gonna end up staying in laxurious resorts on Waikiki beach. Not bad at all but I don’t even wanna know how much the total cost is gonna be


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## original805 (Mar 9, 2018)

We just won Presidents this year and Cal South is giving the team 6000.00 to go to Utah for Regionals.  The thing that stinks is you cannot priceline your own hotels or you will have to pay the company booking the hotels 1500.  Most of the hotels that are reasonable are already sold out.  I found the same hotel on priceline that was 50 dollars a night cheaper.


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## mirage (Mar 9, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Olders pay the same reg fee as youngers, but only get a round of 32 after pool play. What a rip-off.


Just go look at the number of teams participating in olders versus youngers.

If you have a round of 64, you'll have more than a majority of the teams in the playoffs - rather mute point.


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## coachrefparent (Mar 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'm surprised as a ref you don't see why.  The younger games are on smaller fields and shorter minutes.  Thus, the field fees and referee fees are less per game.  The referee fees for 7v7 are even less because of 1 referee at the earlier rounds.  The olders are on full sized fields and longer games, thus, the field fees are more expensive and referee fees are more.  There are fewer games because there are fewer older teams compared to their younger counterparts.


As others noted, the referee fees are entirely separate and paid by the teams for each game. I get that more field space is needed, but skipping an entire round is crazy. I'd rather pay more and get the round of 64.

And no it has nothing to do with the # of teams. Some examples in presidents: 
B05: 110 teams, 64 teams advance (58%), 1st and 2nd + 2 WCs
B04: 98 teams, 64 teams advance (65%), 1st and 2nd + 8 WCs

B03: 102 teams, 32 teams advance(31%), 1st place + 6 wild cards
G03: 91 teams, 32 teams advance(35%), 1st place + 9 wild cards

Oh, and they don't tell you whether its round of 32 or 64 till months after you pay. Only a third advance through pool play (pretty much the bracket winners?) But I guess by reading all the comments, this a great tournament structure.


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## coachrefparent (Mar 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> Just go look at the number of teams participating in olders versus youngers.
> 
> If you have a round of 64, you'll have more than a majority of the teams in the playoffs - rather mute point.


Not moot at all. The youngers have roughly 60% advancing. How's that for mute.


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## coachrefparent (Mar 9, 2018)

And last year, OLDERS:
B02:  100 teams, 64 teams advance (64%), 1st and 2nd + 12 WCs

No rhyme, nor reason.


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## Kicker4Life (Mar 9, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> And last year, OLDERS:
> B02:  100 teams, 64 teams advance (64%), 1st and 2nd + 12 WCs
> 
> No rhyme, nor reason.


Make it - round of 64 and People will complain that there’s an extra round of paying for parking.   Guess you can’t please everyone.


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## mirage (Mar 9, 2018)

coachrefparent said:


> Not moot at all. The youngers have roughly 60% advancing. How's that for mute.


Sorry you are right.  I checked but first the numbers didn't add up.  Then I realized I was looking at the National Cup and not the State Cup Presidents.  When I noticed the thread subject, my mind automatically when to the National Cup, even though it clearly states State Cup.  We've never experienced State Cup as olders.

All that said, if you think about it, to get to the final, you play 3 pool games plus 6 additional games, before the Regionals, if R64.  That's nine games - almost as much as the fall season, in a much shorter period.

Sounds like you like more games. Frankly, for me, I rather see the playoffs go straight to round of 16, and cut down the number of games required to get to the final.  So not having R64 is more than just fine - its preferred.

Btw, thanks for taking the time and making a point to correct mute versus moot.  We all can use education in how we use the language, especially on a community forum like this one.  I feel much more confident in the use of the term and feel better now.... But saying this is a moot point isn't it.


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## jrcaesar (Mar 10, 2018)




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## doubled (Mar 13, 2018)

original805 said:


> We just won Presidents this year and Cal South is giving the team 6000.00 to go to Utah for Regionals.  The thing that stinks is you cannot priceline your own hotels or you will have to pay the company booking the hotels 1500.  Most of the hotels that are reasonable are already sold out.  I found the same hotel on priceline that was 50 dollars a night cheaper.



The USYS travel folks will do you no favors.  We attended Far West in Boise back to back years.  First year lodging was $150 (one to two star properties) to $280 (two to three star properties) per night.  The following year $205 to $340 per night.  CalSouth did kick in $5500 first year then $6000 for the second.  Split that $6k by 18 players, best case it covers ~1.5 nights lodging. Parents will still be covering food, rental car, flights, remaining hotel, etc plus a portion of all of these for the coach.  Bottom line is they have you by the stones and will extract as much $$$ as possible at every turn.  And as stated above if you win Presidents or National Cup vs CRL your choices will be very limited so be prepared to pay on the upper end.


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## GoWest (Mar 13, 2018)

When / where do 'they' post schedule for SoCal National Cup play?


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## coachsamy (Mar 13, 2018)

For regional and national competitions past State/National Cups, betweem USYS and the club should be the ones footing the travel/lodging bill.

1. The regional and national competitions are actually good for the sport and it gives teams some sort of meaning to their meaningless rec season at the end. So its not in the best interest for USYS to not foot the bill specially when they can get good corporate sponsors to pony up some good cash!

2. There are 2 type of clubs that send teams to regionals/national competitions which are the perennial big box clubs (The clubs with millions in the bank account reserved exclusively to pay for tracksuit wearing used car salesmen directors) and the small club that got lucky their talent hasn't been poached by the tracksuit clubs and made it there, but their bank accounts are not that deep at all. For the big box clubs is in their best interest to foot the bill, because it shows the customer (Parents) that the club is using some change to rewards the teams that are actually bringing some sort of prestige(Sales pitch) to the club. Now the small guy can use that tournament profit, fundraise and create awareness that their club can compete with the almighty forces of the big clubs, and get some sort of prestige.

Lastly that's utopian thinking because most of these tracksuit people don't think ahead of themselves, and small club leadership, well they are what they are.


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## GunninGopher (Mar 13, 2018)

GoWest said:


> When / where do 'they' post schedule for SoCal National Cup play?


The olders (U15 up) National Cup schedule is supposed to come out "Mid-March" and will be here:
https://cysa.affinitysoccer.com/tour/public/info/accepted_list.asp?sessionguid=&tournamentguid=FC4F0702-55DD-40C8-BC6E-4D9DB992AE18&show=girls

The youngers (U14 down) National Cup is almost over and is posted here:
https://cysa.affinitysoccer.com/tour/public/info/accepted_list.asp?sessionguid=&tournamentguid=8F336501-E4EB-43DD-8288-B1577107F046&show=girls

The Cal South State Tournaments (including Nat. Cup) can be accessed here:
http://www.calsouth.com/en/state-tournaments/


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## espola (Mar 13, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> For regional and national competitions past State/National Cups, betweem USYS and the club should be the ones footing the travel/lodging bill.
> 
> 1. The regional and national competitions are actually good for the sport and it gives teams some sort of meaning to their meaningless rec season at the end. So its not in the best interest for USYS to not foot the bill specially when they can get good corporate sponsors to pony up some good cash!
> 
> ...


I missed the linkage where the small club "tournament profit" appeared.


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## original805 (Mar 13, 2018)

doubled said:


> The USYS travel folks will do you no favors.  We attended Far West in Boise back to back years.  First year lodging was $150 (one to two star properties) to $280 (two to three star properties) per night.  The following year $205 to $340 per night.  CalSouth did kick in $5500 first year then $6000 for the second.  Split that $6k by 18 players, best case it covers ~1.5 nights lodging. Parents will still be covering food, rental car, flights, remaining hotel, etc plus a portion of all of these for the coach.  Bottom line is they have you by the stones and will extract as much $$$ as possible at every turn.  And as stated above if you win Presidents or National Cup vs CRL your choices will be very limited so be prepared to pay on the upper end.


I agree with you 100%.  I guarantee that cal south is covering every cal south board member that is going 100 percent.


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## coachsamy (Mar 13, 2018)

espola said:


> I missed the linkage where the small club "tournament profit" appeared.


The small club runs tournaments just like anybody else, that they are not that "prestigious" doesn't mean that profits are coming in, might as well do some investment of that profit whenever the opportunity rises to market to the gullible ulittle parents.


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