# Splitting



## SoCal GK mom (Apr 21, 2018)

At what age did your GK start splitting play with another GK? What are the pros and cons of splitting? Do you look for or discuss anything specific with a coach prior to committing to a splitting situation?

My daughter has always been the only GK for her team, but as she is getting older, it seems like most teams want to carry two GKs and I want to be sure we are smart about the process. Thanks in advance for your advice!


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## soccer661 (Apr 21, 2018)

Pro's with splitting:  Competition with another keeper during training, warm-ups, etc.  Keeps them sharp/on their toes.

Con's with splitting:  best to have them play FULL games to get them use to the MENTAL part of being completely focused, talking, directing the back line for the full 90 min-- gets them ready for college (where you rarely if ever see keepers splitting the 90 min...)

So if there is a second keeper and they are of similar capabilities -- I think it's generally better to alternate full games rather than split halves. Or, if there is a clear starter, have them play the game until (and if) it's seemingly in hand, i.e. up 2 or 3-0 with 20 to go.


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## socalkdg (Apr 21, 2018)

05 daughter is a keeper.  I’d look to leave if she was splitting time.  Half a game might see only 4-5 touches.  Game experience.   Setting your teammates for a wall, clearing out corners, playbacks,  knowing when to drop kick and when to roll it out to a player, facing breakaways, when to slide tackle outside the box because of a poor pass   There is a reason top goal keepers get better with age and it isn’t always their skill and physical speed and height.


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## Technician72 (Apr 22, 2018)

When they first start to play the game in the youngers it's critical for them to play the field for the first couple / few seasons to have an understanding of what they need their players to do, but once they go 100% in goal, splitting time should be avoided until the rosters expand, the travel increases and the need for 2 keepers is a must more so for the "team" rather than for the "player".

However be wary of complacency and the lack of competition in goal. Some keepers become the only option and a coach can't afford to push them and hold them accountable for not getting the job done. That bubble can set your player up for a serious learning curve when they're faced with competing with someone for the starting spot because they've never had to do so before.

My DD has been very fortunate and has been playing club for some time now, her experience is as follows:

Arsenal FC 05s - Outside Back
Legends 05s - Outside Mid
IE Surf 05s - Keeper / Outside Mid
Arsenal West 05s - Keeper (Fulltime)
IE Surf 05s - Keeper (Fulltime)
IE Surf 06s - Keeper (Fulltime)
IE Surf 06s - Keeper (Fulltime)

She's entering her 4th season playing in goal fulltime, and will probably have one more year of being the only one in goal. With DA / ECNL offers on the table this year, they included clubs clearly stating they would be carrying 2 keepers. Best of luck to all the keepers out there, mix it up and get as many looks as you can!


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 22, 2018)

This is the first year my 06 daughter is playing on a team with 2 keepers but she is playing up on an 04 team.  We welcome it for a couple of reasons; 1. When my daughter is sick or has some social thing she really wants to do, we don't have to push to make sure she doesn't let her team down.  2. My daughter likes having the competition and the challenge.


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 22, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> 05 daughter is a keeper.  I’d look to leave if she was splitting time.  Half a game might see only 4-5 touches.  Game experience.   Setting your teammates for a wall, clearing out corners, playbacks,  knowing when to drop kick and when to roll it out to a player, facing breakaways, when to slide tackle outside the box because of a poor pass   There is a reason top goal keepers get better with age and it isn’t always their skill and physical speed and height.


This is a good point...


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## Technician72 (Apr 22, 2018)

Keepermom2 said:


> This is the first year my 06 daughter is playing on a team with 2 keepers but she is playing up on an 04 team.  We welcome it for a couple of reasons; 1. When my daughter is sick or has some social thing she really wants to do, we don't have to push to make sure she doesn't let her team down.  2. My daughter likes having the competition and the challenge.


Being on an 04 team and splitting time in goal makes sense, the majority of girls will be going into High School in the fall and you have a lot going on and injuries will start to creep in as well.

Some pros / cons in her situation as you'd really want her to get as many touches and looks as she can, but if she's skilled enough to play 2 years up that has advantages too. Good for her!

FYI, let me know if you want me to add you to the roll call for the 06s? Playing up, I can add you to both the 06s and 04s when I post that later in the summer.


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 22, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> Being on an 04 team and splitting time in goal makes sense, the majority of girls will be going into High School in the fall and you have a lot going on and injuries will start to creep in as well.
> 
> Some pros / cons in her situation as you'd really want her to get as many touches and looks as she can, but if she's skilled enough to play 2 years up that has advantages too. Good for her!
> 
> FYI, let me know if you want me to add you to the roll call for the 06s? Playing up, I can add you to both the 06s and 04s when I post that later in the summer.


Yeah she has played 2 scrimmages with them and I can see a few steps back in her confidence but she still wants to move forward doing it and believes with more experience her confidence will increase.  She is fortunate to be on a team that is incredibly supportive and nice.  They could easily be yucky teenagers about a younger person on the team but they have been nothing but great too her.  I am pleasantly surprised.  

Sounds good to add us to both the 06s and the 04s.  We are on the Pateadores PYL G04 team.


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## CoachMike (Apr 22, 2018)

As someone mentioned above, I would prefer to rotate my GKs every game rather than every half. Nice to have 2 because of training purposes, warm-ups are easier, competition, and if one keeper doesn't show up or is sick.


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## Grace T. (Apr 22, 2018)

The big problems come when the keepers aren't equivalent in their development.  If one is better than the other, the coach will be under tremendous pressure to play the better one more (in which case the weaker keeper might move on), or if he doesn't that the better one might complain that he's forced to share time because of politics.   One keeper or the other is going to unhappy.

The other issue with keepers is that there are 2 factors in making a keeper great: natural ability (including height, aggressiveness, intellect) and development (what they've learned and how far they've progressed).  One keeper may have great natural ability but only knows how to block with his feet.  Another may have great tactical skills and know how to tip over bar, the backpass, high balls.  So their comparison to each other might be skewed...one might think hey I'm a natural why isn't coach playing me more...while the other is thinking hey I'm so much more advanced and can do so much more than the other kid why isn't coach playing me more.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Apr 22, 2018)

This will be my kids 5th year of competitive soccer (essentially all as FT keeper).  Her 1st and 3rd years she was the only keeper.  
#1 - don't trust anything a coach tells you about playing time if there are 2 keepers unless he/she says I will play who I want, when I want and  it may not make sense as to what I am doing,
#2 - the coaches/DOCs normally don't know how to develop keepers,
#3 - the success of 2 keepers is often determined by the keepers (Can they get along?  Do they push each other, in a good way? Can they keep their egos in check?  Is one a hard ass who yells at the defense (which pisses them off but helps them off) or is quiet but liked?  All factors. 
#4- Goalies are about confidence anything that hurts their confidence should be avoided.  (Maybe this should be 1st). 
#5 -It is important that they improve their field skills and have FUN, put them in an arena/futsal/tiffany/rec team where hey can run around as a field player.  
Good luck to you and your kid.


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## Technician72 (Apr 22, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> #2 - the coaches/DOCs normally don't know how to develop keepers


You can extend that to the club in general, their idea of keeper training is quite often 10 goalies and 1 coach. Purely shooting drills with no emphasis on technique. You really having to be proactive as a parent of a GK and make sure they're getting properly trained.


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## silverstreak (Apr 22, 2018)

Trying not to give away any of my secrets......but......Keepers need the " Hall pass to play with a club and have the opportunity to guest play as much as possible"  nothing like gametime experience.


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 23, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> The big problems come when the keepers aren't equivalent in their development.  If one is better than the other, the coach will be under tremendous pressure to play the better one more (in which case the weaker keeper might move on), or if he doesn't that the better one might complain that he's forced to share time because of politics.   One keeper or the other is going to unhappy.
> 
> The other issue with keepers is that there are 2 factors in making a keeper great: natural ability (including height, aggressiveness, intellect) and development (what they've learned and how far they've progressed).  One keeper may have great natural ability but only knows how to block with his feet.  Another may have great tactical skills and know how to tip over bar, the backpass, high balls.  So their comparison to each other might be skewed...one might think hey I'm a natural why isn't coach playing me more...while the other is thinking hey I'm so much more advanced and can do so much more than the other kid why isn't coach playing me more.


I think you make some very valid points from a development of the position piece.  For me, I always try and keep perspective on life lessons too and achieve that ultimate balance.  Earlier in my career I was offered a second manager position on a huge client and I didn't want to do it because I was too arrogant.  Didn't they know I was ranked on the top of my group?  Looking back on that decision, humbling myself and learning from that would have been a great opportunity for me.

In high school soccer, college soccer etc. you may not be a Keeper during games for a year or 2 or ever.   It blows my mind when I see the WNT Goalkeepers or College Goalkeepers that aren't playing in games be so excited for the team.  I have pondered that and came up with the fact they are about the team and they understand their place and what they need to do to earn play time and set realistic goals.    The attitude and work ethic is what has them on the team to begin with.  

As this is my daughter's first year playing on a team with another Keeper, I have asked her all along the way and after each of the last 2 games we played if she was okay with that decision letting her know we can bale out now before I pay the deposit and she still says she loves having another Keeper and loves playing up.  I prepared her before the game for not playing at all.  I am of the belief that you need to accept the worst case scenario and anything above that is a blessing.  I have told her that WE will both accept whatever the coach's decisions are for the year taking all of the development we can with the club/private training and at the end of our commitment we will evaluate what is best.   This is what I hope she would do in her future career too....  Work hard with a great attitude and if it isn't enough, re-evaluate decisions and future plans while still honoring her commitment.    

Also, I think being on a team with 2 Keepers where the development that occurs at practices and positive instruction at the games is much better than a club where you are sole Keeper and that stuff isn't that good .    I will let you know at the end of the year if that was the wrong decision.  Haha


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## Eagle33 (Apr 23, 2018)

Splitting time is a very touchy subject. At younger age groups, there is no reason to have 2 keepers and it's a lot easier to have a field player who can fill in goal if something happens. Besides, I think everyone at younger ages should be tried in goal. 
At 15 and above, having 2 goalkeepers is a must for reasons mentioned: competition between them, training partner, etc.
My kid was always in a different situation, since he can play on the field, so his time not in goal, he would be spend on the field playing. Of course you need a coach who will allow that and understands it's value. Many coaches think goalkeeper should be in goal and will not allow him/her to play on the field. Playing on field for him (striker or mid) has been huge help in his development as a goalkeeper. His ability to play with his feet and pinging the ball 50-60 years has been very valuable for his team. I'm not mentioning understanding how the striker thinks. 
Nobody is looking for shot-stoppers anymore - everyone is looking for a complete goalkeepers, who can start the attack.
I believe finding a smart coach who understands how to split time is the way to go.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 23, 2018)

My daughter has been the sole keeper for much of her club career, but not all of it.  Of course, in HS it has been an adjustment because in her freshman year, they had two seniors, a junior and another really good freshman.  

Like a lot of things in club soccer, it mostly depends on the coach.  Her one year in club where she had a back-up, the coach was very young, inexperienced, and a bit of a used car salesman.  Like 95% of most club coaches, he was a former field player and had zero grasp of the position.  It was a bad experience for her because he reacted to mistakes rather than limitations (like in the article @Grace T. posted in the other thread).  If you're an NFL fan, you've heard the adage that the most popular player on any team is the back-up QB.   Whenever the starter has a bad game (unless the starter is Manning/Brady level) everyone in the stands starts calling for the back-up.  That's how it feels for keepers, too.  The one in the game feels more pressure than usual to be perfect, and once you get pulled in a game after a bad mistake, it is pretty much over from a confidence standpoint.  

I've met some coaches who preach always carrying 2 keepers at all times in the older age groups.  I've met others who insist that you should only have one main keeper, and if they get injured, you call up another one from a younger age group or a lower team within the club.  Incidentally, her favorite coach was also a former GK as a player, and he was adamant about not splitting time.  

Another underrated factor is the relationship your child has with the other keeper (and the families).  My daughter knows certain keepers that she'd love to split time with because she trains with them and has a great friendship with.  She knows others that she has rivalries with, and I would think it would be a team chemistry breaker to have them on the same team.   It's such a tough spot because it's not like the field players that often have to come in and out for rests, and can usually play a couple of different spots.  They're used to coming and going, but a keeper has to really build up their rhythm, get in the flow of the game and often get lathered up to hit their stride.  If you're constantly getting pulled at half-time or jumping into a heated game in the second half after sitting for 45 minutes, it is often the worst of both worlds for both keepers.


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## soccer661 (Apr 23, 2018)

My 2 cents on a couple more things for younger GKs 

Some have mentioned coaches and clubs don't develop them very well within what they do at team sessions and even GK sessions, and that for the most part, is true - so, get a good private trainer and then... pay attention to what's happening in those sessions, and then... spend some quality time with your kid in helping her (or him get reps on the things you both saw in the training that you can feasibly help them with. 

Even if it's in small, creative ways.

If your kid and you are paying attention to the details in training sessions and then you and your child go spend some time working on things, (especially weaknesses) you (and your trainer) will be amazed at the improvements made and the rate thereof, for nothing replaces repititions to get a young one comfortable with their skills. 

* Just keep it fun. There's more than enough pressure at practice and in the games (as there should be). But when you're together, point out that there's no teammates, opponents, coaches or refs. It's just you two hanging out doing stuff.

Then as a bonus, you get quality time spent with your kiddo that down the line, regardless of where their soccer journey goes, you both will treasure.


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## SoCal GK mom (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks everyone. My daughter is an 03 and has gotten a lot of out being the only GK, but it is also a lot of pressure on her and on our family to never travel (even for family weddings, etc.) and to never be sick. Also, when things aren't going well for the team, with only one GK, she can become the target of blame- it would be nice to spread that around. As we begin to consider changing teams, most teams in this age group are looking to add a second GK rather than replace their current GK. I want to make sure that I guide her into a situation that will add to her development both in skills and confidence. I appreciate hearing your thoughts. 

Yay GK forum!


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 23, 2018)

SoCal GK mom said:


> Thanks everyone. My daughter is an 03 and has gotten a lot of out being the only GK, but it is also a lot of pressure on her and on our family to never travel (even for family weddings, etc.) and to never be sick. Also, when things aren't going well for the team, with only one GK, she can become the target of blame- it would be nice to spread that around. As we begin to consider changing teams, most teams in this age group are looking to add a second GK rather than replace their current GK. I want to make sure that I guide her into a situation that will add to her development both in skills and confidence. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
> 
> Yay GK forum!


Yeah blame game is the name for some parents and players. Have seen players quit or not one to be promoted due to the abuse. One can say "you have to grow a thick skin", which is true, but kids arent adults and dont have the same coping skills. Hell, some parents dont have good coping skills. 

Been fortunate our club has solid goalkeeper training and coaches do PART of the practice to get keepers work. Some kids dont want to be in goal fulltime, even the best ones - like someone mentioned it can get boring if you dont get action. As others mentioned, getting work in on the field at an early age will only help the keeper. Today, emphasis is having good footwork. I cant tell you how many times my kid has had to use his dribbling skills to get space to clear a ball or to find a split because a defender gets nervous and passes the ball backwards. If your child isnt getting this at practice/game you will have to supplement the training by putting the kid in private training - that isnt goalkeeping focused. Great if you have the time and extra $

Im also a firm believer of earning your spot. I dont know how many parents come in and want guarantees to  A) be sole keeper and B) be sole keeper at Flight X. Parents get upset, literally, and dont sign. Have had the same parents come back after a year or two and tell coaches their kids is "ready" to compete - even after being the sole starter of the teams they were on.I know it can be hard if your kids only position is goalkeeper - dont want to be spending $$$$ and having them on the bench. The positive is it can motivate them to train harder. The keepers tend to be very tight and support one another. Good to have another keeper on the team your child can talk to if they are having a bad game. keeping can be a real lonely place.


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## KeeperMom20 (Apr 23, 2018)

My kid announced her desire to play in goal at U8. From U8-U10 she split time with another keeper and continued to play on the field. She became the only keeper on her team at U11 and that held through U16. We’re currently in the process of changing teams and she’ll be one of at least two anywhere she decides to go. We believe the built in competition and camaraderie will be good for her.

Through her younger years, we constantly asked her coach to try to add a second keeper. It’s a great deal of pressure for the whole family to be the only one, no matter what is going on with school commitments, family commitments, or injuries. We’ve scheduled vacations around tournaments, left a National Cup game and changed in the car for prom, and played through more sprains, strains, and pulled muscles than I can count, with nothing but crossed fingers and layers of tape. It used to make me both proud and pissed off to have my kid in goal with a badly pulled quad or sprained ankle, while a field player was missing for their cousin’s friend’s dog’s birthday party.

ETA, she was very disappointed when HS started, because she was hoping for a second keeper and some field time. Though she can’t hang on her club team on the field anymore, she would be a mid-level player on her HS team. Unfortunately, she wound up being the only keeper there as well. Sigh.


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## Grace T. (Apr 23, 2018)

KeeperMom20 said:


> My kid announced her desire to play in goal at U8. From U8-U10 she split time with another keeper and continued to play on the field. She became the only keeper on her team at U11 and that held through U16. We’re currently in the process of changing teams and she’ll be one of at least two anywhere she decides to go. We believe the built in competition and camaraderie will be good for her.
> 
> Through her younger years, we constantly asked her coach to try to add a second keeper. It’s a great deal of pressure for the whole family to be the only one, no matter what is going on with school commitments, family commitments, or injuries. We’ve scheduled vacations around tournaments, left a National Cup game and changed in the car for prom, and played through more sprains, strains, and pulled muscles than I can count, with nothing but crossed fingers and layers of tape. It used to make me both proud and pissed off to have my kid in goal with a badly pulled quad or sprained ankle, while a field player was missing for their cousin’s friend’s dog’s birthday party.
> 
> ETA, she was very disappointed when HS started, because she was hoping for a second keeper and some field time. Though she can’t hang on her club team on the field anymore, she would be a mid-level player on her HS team. Unfortunately, she wound up being the only keeper there as well. Sigh.


Same experience here.  Last year, he played regardless of circumstances, even with a pulled muscle, a twerked finger, or cold.  Only times he didn't was in an early game where he had a 102 fever (we drew the line there)....coach put in the alternate (who was the lead striker): bad for them (our offense which was built around the kid collapsed), bad for my son (alternate is superathletic and did a great job leading to the kids to make comparisons), bad for the striker (who blamed himself for losing the game anyways); and at one game near the season end where both the striker and son went out (you can imagine how that game went).  I'm sure nobody would have told him he should play injured (not me, the coaches, the other parents or the kids)....still the pressure was there to not let everyone down.  That's why we were so happy another goalkeeper came on board (as we had been requesting)...the weight wouldn't be all on his shoulders.... but sadly they didn't manage that well at all.

At his new team, it looks like he will be the lead/only GK so we'll be dealing with that again and I'm already altering summer plans to make sure we are here for the tournaments.


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## MWN (Apr 23, 2018)

soccer661 said:


> My 2 cents on a couple more things for younger GKs...


I'll add that I think coaches and parents make a big mistake allocating younger kids as full-time GKs too early.  My advice is that kids should continue to get as much field time and work on skills as much as possible.  Thus, splitting is a good thing as long as field time is involved.  Don't go full-time in the box until its clear that the kid has a future at that position.  My rule/advice is that before puberty use the Khamis-Roche Method to ascertain whether the kid has a decent chance at continuing in the position based on the following standard:

Girls - Tracking above 5'7" (average height of D1 is 5'9")
Boys - Tracking above 5'11"
Once puberty starts and the growth spurts hit and you achieve above the minimums then go full time.  The caveat would be earlier is OK if the kid has very good chance of finishing off a few inches above the minimums (Dad is 6'3 and Mom is 5'10 and kid is sitting in top 5% through adolescence).  At the older and higher levels coaches will take the talented tall kid every-time over the talented short kid for this position.  On the field, height really doesn't matter much, but between the sticks height does.  At the college level most D1 schools won't look at keepers that fall below the above and want to see much taller.

I've seen multiple female soccer player absolutely ruined because they went between the sticks full-time too early.  They loved soccer, were great U10 field players, became full-time GKs and slowly become mediocre field players by U14, then by U16 had no team that wanted them for the field or keeper at 5'4" (average woman's height).  Those shorter keepers get relegated to the C team and/or the bench until after the game is decided.  

_Full disclosure: My son was 5'9" at age 12/13 and is now slightly under 6'2" at age 14.  He was always tracking 6'1"+, so I was OK with him becoming a full-time keeper at the U13 level, but he still split time on the field on his U14 team because he was one of the top field players and the team needed field players.  Last year was his first year as a full-time keeper and he played up a year._


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## Mystery Train (Apr 23, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'll add that I think coaches and parents make a big mistake allocating younger kids as full-time GKs too early.  My advice is that kids should continue to get as much field time and work on skills as much as possible.  Thus, splitting is a good thing as long as field time is involved.  Don't go full-time in the box until its clear that the kid has a future at that position.  My rule/advice is that before puberty use the Khamis-Roche Method to ascertain whether the kid has a decent chance at continuing in the position based on the following standard:
> 
> Girls - Tracking above 5'7" (average height of D1 is 5'9")
> Boys - Tracking above 5'11"
> ...


We'll probably need a different thread to discuss height, but just curious to know where you get the average height for D1 players?  I've done lots of research by hunting down collegiate rosters and looking at the height listings of keepers, but have never seen a study or report on it.  Those numbers sound about right, but I have seen some shorter D1 keepers on the women's side.  

Additional thoughts:  In general, agree that it is better to not commit to playing keeper only until later.  As for your comments about college, you are talking only D1, and I think it is a bad idea to use that as a guide for what to do with younger players anyway.  The likelihood of even playing D1 ball is waaaaaay outside reality for the majority of club soccer keepers.  Opening up the scope to include D2, D3, NAIA and small colleges, there is no reason a shorter player who just loves the position can't find a place to play beyond youth...and let's not get caught up in making college soccer the end goal at all.  

Last thing to stop the shorter keepers out there from getting discouraged:  If genetics are going to keep you down (5'4 for girls, 5'9 for boys) work on that vertical.   It you can get to the top of the crossbar, you've always got a chance.


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## MWN (Apr 23, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> We'll probably need a different thread to discuss height, but just curious to know where you get the average height for D1 players?  I've done lots of research by hunting down collegiate rosters and looking at the height listings of keepers, but have never seen a study or report on it.  Those numbers sound about right, but I have seen some shorter D1 keepers on the women's side.
> 
> Additional thoughts:  In general, agree that it is better to not commit to playing keeper only until later.  As for your comments about college, you are talking only D1, and I think it is a bad idea to use that as a guide for what to do with younger players anyway.  The likelihood of even playing D1 ball is waaaaaay outside reality for the majority of club soccer keepers.  Opening up the scope to include D2, D3, NAIA and small colleges, there is no reason a shorter player who just loves the position can't find a place to play beyond youth...and let's not get caught up in making college soccer the end goal at all.
> 
> Last thing to stop the shorter keepers out there from getting discouraged:  If genetics are going to keep you down (5'4 for girls, 5'9 for boys) work on that vertical.   It you can get to the top of the crossbar, you've always got a chance.


You have heard the expression, there are lies, damn lies and statistics ... or something like that.
We have this, which is relatively accurate: http://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting-tools/womens-high-school-soccer/womens-soccer-recruits-recruiting-guidelines
At the women's pro level: https://www.keeperportal.co.uk/how-tall-do-female-goalkeepers-need-to-be/

A few months back I did a survey (one Saturday morning) and visited something like 20+ NCAA D1 teams rosters, picked the GK's with minutes (some never see the field) and basically confirmed that at the D1 level, the averages mirror the women's pro averages. (https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-women/d1).  For example, UCLA doesn't have a GK below 5'7" and the starter (Micah) is 5'9".  Stanford's are each 5'9".

Scholarships are limited and GK's are one of the few positions that can get full rides given the importance of the position.  Height and wingspan play a crucial role in who gets looks and who doesn't.  At the end, the shorter keepers have a very tough time getting minutes, but there are many non-scholarship roster spots for players who will find themselves in a support role.  Even if college isn't on the horizon, there are always Recreational teams and Flight 3/Bronze teams in need of keepers, regardless of height.

You are right, we don't want to discourage the shorter keepers and the a few will break out of the pack and move to the next level, but the road is so much harder.  This is why I continue to believe "splitting game time" is ok.  Most of the skill development will occur at keeper training anyway, and the 90 minute games for most keepers are only 10 minutes of actual playing (unless your team sucks and the opposing team plays the game on your half).  When my son's team dominates the other team, he simply stands a little beyond the 18" and watches until he gets a backpass and puts it back into play.

So my opinion is splitting time is great, especially if the time is spent on the field.  Splitting time and sitting may not benefit the keeper, but often does benefit the team.


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 23, 2018)

MWN said:


> I'll add that I think coaches and parents make a big mistake allocating younger kids as full-time GKs too early.  My advice is that kids should continue to get as much field time and work on skills as much as possible.  Thus, splitting is a good thing as long as field time is involved.  Don't go full-time in the box until its clear that the kid has a future at that position.  My rule/advice is that before puberty use the Khamis-Roche Method to ascertain whether the kid has a decent chance at continuing in the position based on the following standard:
> 
> Girls - Tracking above 5'7" (average height of D1 is 5'9")
> Boys - Tracking above 5'11"
> ...


My daughter wouldn't come out of the goal no matter what I did at U11.  I was really nervous about that because I wasn't certain she would be tall because I adopted her.  She has always been in the 85th to 90th percentile and one of the tallest in her class forever but I was still nervous about that decision.   She is in the 95th percentile right now and has always been on track to reach at least 5'7" but no taller than 5'9".  I think we are good though because she has huge feet, inordinately long legs right now, is 5'3"at the age of 11 and seems to be growing daily.  I just had to bank on statistics when I didn't talk her out of the goal at 9/10 years old.  Of course I am pretty sure she could still play Keeper in high school and in certain clubs even if she didn't grow to 5'7".   College seems so far off with remote possibilities I can't really think that far.


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## Technician72 (Apr 24, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> We'll probably need a different thread to discuss height, but just curious to know where you get the average height for D1 players?  I've done lots of research by hunting down collegiate rosters and looking at the height listings of keepers, but have never seen a study or report on it.  Those numbers sound about right, but I have seen some shorter D1 keepers on the women's side.
> 
> Additional thoughts:  In general, agree that it is better to not commit to playing keeper only until later.  As for your comments about college, you are talking only D1, and I think it is a bad idea to use that as a guide for what to do with younger players anyway.  The likelihood of even playing D1 ball is waaaaaay outside reality for the majority of club soccer keepers.  Opening up the scope to include D2, D3, NAIA and small colleges, there is no reason a shorter player who just loves the position can't find a place to play beyond youth...and let's not get caught up in making college soccer the end goal at all.
> 
> Last thing to stop the shorter keepers out there from getting discouraged:  If genetics are going to keep you down (5'4 for girls, 5'9 for boys) work on that vertical.   It you can get to the top of the crossbar, you've always got a chance.


We got lucky with the genetics. Currently my GK is 5'8" at 11 years old, and she's been drilled too death since early on about her form and ability to play low and leverage her height to cover not just the "high ones".


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## Mystery Train (Apr 24, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> Currently my GK is 5'8" at 11 years old


 wow!  She'll probably have more trouble fending off the volleyball and basketball coaches than opposing team's forwards at this point.


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## Technician72 (Apr 24, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> wow!  She'll probably have more trouble fending off the volleyball and basketball coaches than opposing team's forwards at this point.


Basketball recruitment is already happening, she plays center for her junior high team (6th grade) to keep things fresh. My wife ran Track and played Basketball through college internationally so she's praying my kids switch to B-Ball. It's like the Cold War in my house when it comes to Soccer vs. Basketball.


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## Woobie06 (Apr 24, 2018)

This is a really good thread...plus I think it is also super tough for parents of GK's...  I agree with so many things people have said, importance of playing full games, the mental aspect, the hall pass for guesting, number of touches and how different it is from field players, drama if there are differences in ability between the keepers, that keeping is much more than shot stopping, plus only one can play at a time, and above all if you don't play, you won't develop.

Just to share, our current philosophy right now is up through 9th grade (we are a few years away), we will have our DD on a team appropriate for her ability where she plays full-time, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance.  Hopefully it will be at the same level she plays at now, and optimistically it is with the same club.  That in addition with good training outside of what the club offers will hopefully be beneficial in the long run.  Going into 10th Grade if she splits time on an ECNL/DA or whatever it is at that time, she will at least get the opportunity for the larger showcase events to be seen (I know these events occur at the earlier age groups as well).  She is 4 years away from 10th grade, and splitting time in between is the equivalent of taking two years of development/playing away IMO.  That is a lot and too much to give.  This assumes she wants to be the FT Keeper (which she is currently, and has said she does not want to split).  I also worry that splitting time just because there are two keepers will affect her love to play...for a variety of reasons.  IMO, The better player should play more. It works that way at the other positions. 

We tell our daughter the most important things at the GK position are being consistent, reliable, and available.  You save what you are supposed to, and come up big more frequently than you come up short (soft goal);  you are at every game, scrimmage, and event; and you play tough (as others have mentioned) and through being hurt (being hurt is not being injured, you can't play through injuries).  You don't give them a reason to bring in another player.   Ideally she should not need another rostered keeper to compete against in practice for motivation, hopefully there is enough motivation to work hard to play.  There is competition in Club Keeper training between younger/older, Team A/B, etc.  as well as mixed practices.  It is a big commitment from the player and parents and not necessarily fair.  I have met very few kids that want to sit on the bench and not play.

The last thing I will say is that our DD's Keeper Coach told us a story a few weeks ago about a boy he trains, and that the highest level he played was CSL Gold.  This boy recently signed a Pro Contract in Denmark.  My DD's Keeper Coach told us that the most important thing to do is play, play, play and get as many opportunities as you can in the goal.  He said this is more important than playing in the top leagues when younger.  Sometimes I think we parents might put a higher priority on the league - DA/ECNL/or whatever over where the kids need to play to develop.


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## 3JMommy (Apr 24, 2018)

We have an 03 Keeper, who's played FT keep for the last 2 years. She was ready to go in goal FT the year before, but we made her wait it out one more year. The past two seasons she has been on a team with 2 keepers, and their time was split pure 50/50. However, she was allowed to guest anywhere and everywhere as much as she wanted. Sometimes on the field, and sometimes in the goal. She has LOVED it. She loves her co-Keeper-they are each other's biggest fans. She says that splitting time helps her. It's like a sister--no one else knows exactly what you're going through like your sibling.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 24, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> We tell our daughter the most important things at the GK position are being consistent, reliable, and available. You save what you are supposed to, and come up big more frequently than you come up short (soft goal); you are at every game, scrimmage, and event; and you play tough (as others have mentioned) and through being hurt (being hurt is not being injured, you can't play through injuries). You don't give them a reason to bring in another player. Ideally she should not need another rostered keeper to compete against in practice for motivation, hopefully there is enough motivation to work hard to play.


Preach!


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 24, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> We got lucky with the genetics. Currently my GK is 5'8" at 11 years old, and she's been drilled too death since early on about her form and ability to play low and leverage her height to cover not just the "high ones".


Wow!  Great that she got good training!


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## Woobie06 (Apr 24, 2018)

3JMommy said:


> We have an 03 Keeper, who's played FT keep for the last 2 years. She was ready to go in goal FT the year before, but we made her wait it out one more year. The past two seasons she has been on a team with 2 keepers, and their time was split pure 50/50. However, she was allowed to guest anywhere and everywhere as much as she wanted. Sometimes on the field, and sometimes in the goal. She has LOVED it. She loves her co-Keeper-they are each other's biggest fans. She says that splitting time helps her. It's like a sister--no one else knows exactly what you're going through like your sibling.


That is awesome!  That flexibility and support is great.  Each kids journey, story, goal, and expectation are different.  What’s cool is that in SoCal there so many kids that play and teams you can find the right situation for your kid/player so they have fun and enjoy playing.  That is the hardest part, finding what works and not getting caught in traps.  Everybody’s road is going to be a little different.    Team sports are so good for the kids and finding the right fit is key.


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## silverstreak (Apr 24, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> We got lucky with the genetics. Currently my GK is 5'8" at 11 years old, and she's been drilled too death since early on about her form and ability to play low and leverage her height to cover not just the "high ones".


 have 


Technician72 said:


> Basketball recruitment is already happening, she plays center for her junior high team (6th grade) to keep things fresh. My wife ran Track and played Basketball through college internationally so she's praying my kids switch to B-Ball. It's like the Cold War in my house when it comes to Soccer vs. Basketball.



I want to touch on this......my dd is an 02 and is 6'1.........she played full time keeper since U8.....but played rec seasons to get field experience, so she did not suffer too bad on the footskills and ball handling........going back now I think both basketball and beach volleyball have been the best contributors to her success at the 10-15 age range that I could have done for her.....not just what the sports itself provides for cross train....but with the big growth spurts of a big athletic girl we had to trust that playing in the sand has helped with her balance...agility and core strength as well as keeping her injury free to this point.


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## MWN (Apr 24, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> 05 daughter is a keeper.  I’d look to leave if she was splitting time.  Half a game might see only 4-5 touches.  Game experience.   Setting your teammates for a wall, clearing out corners, playbacks,  knowing when to drop kick and when to roll it out to a player, facing breakaways, when to slide tackle outside the box because of a poor pass   There is a reason top goal keepers get better with age and it isn’t always their skill and physical speed and height.


What happens if the GK get's injured and is out for a month.  At the 05 level (U13) its may be unfair to the team.  If the club has multiple teams and can club pass GKs then its a different issue, but the higher the level of play, the higher the stakes.

Good/Intelligent team coaches can mitigate some of the concerns that keeper parents have (touches) by adjusting practices.  At GK practice, the GK is going to get more touches and instruction than any game will provide.  At team practice, the GK is often left on an island stopping shots with no instruction other than "do better."  If coaches were better educated on the needs of GKs, they could easily spend 20 minutes on set plays and other drills that benefit the GKs as well as the team.  We had a coach that while I hated some elements of his style, understood that practicing these other elements and giving good instruction to the GKs was his job.  Splitting time wasn't such a big deal because the boy got 3x as many situational touches in practice than he did at games.


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## gkparent (Apr 25, 2018)

We want our DD to split time as little as possible. She is 5’2” and will max out at 5’4” tops. She has been aware for about 2 years what doors will be closed to her in the future due to size and what doors she can keep open by training her tail off.  She probably could have trained her tail off as a field player instead but decided to stick with goalkeeping because she loves it. We just want her to play as much of the beautiful game for the love of the game as she can while he ride lasts. She is fortunate that school comes easily to her and she can write her ticket to college without soccer but is aiming to stay in the competitive realm so she has a chance at a D3 team someday.


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## gkparent (Apr 25, 2018)

The DD trains with an incredible GK coach and loves learning with and from some very talented boys and girls. This will be her first year playing with a backup keeper. It might have felt more threatening to her, but I think the camaraderie she has experienced through training has made her a fan of all GKs everywhere (with the exception of GKs that celebrate the mistakes of others, but luckily we have not seen that to be the norm). Also, the backup keeper is a good field player and won’t ride the bench, so they get a chance to cheer each other on in other ways. I give the coach credit for arranging a situation that benefits all the girls and the team as a whole, too.


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## NorCal (Apr 25, 2018)

My daughter played both midfield and GK early on (u8-u13). Our backup GK moved so she has been the sole GK for the last 2 years on her one team and splits time at GK on her other team. She occasionally has the  opportunity to play the field at her age group though (she plays 1 year up). I think playing the field has really helped her foot skills, distribution and confidence coming off her line (attached is a pic of her doing a header near midfield).


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## G03_SD (Apr 25, 2018)

gkparent said:


> We want our DD to split time as little as possible. She is 5’2” and will max out at 5’4” tops. She has been aware for about 2 years what doors will be closed to her in the future due to size and what doors she can keep open by training her tail off.  She probably could have trained her tail off as a field player instead but decided to stick with goalkeeping because she loves it. We just want her to play as much of the beautiful game for the love of the game as she can while he ride lasts. She is fortunate that school comes easily to her and she can write her ticket to college without soccer but is aiming to stay in the competitive realm so she has a chance at a D3 team someday.


My dd is 5'2 and has maxed out as a jr. She works hard and always wants to play at higher level. She's very realistic when it comes to team and college recruitment.  She has been beaten out of a spot by 6' GK who cannot dive or catch a ball, but has good presence. And there had been occasions coaches invited her back because their giants could not get the job done.  She has very good grades and SAT and is looking to attend a highly competitive highly ranked academic college. Her strategy has been looking up schools that carry GK shorter than 5'5. She's talking to some and hopes soccer will open the door to the schools where grades/test scores will not get her through the standard admission process, but maybe soccer will move her application up top.  She's okay if she doesn't get a minute on the college field, there will be intramural, club or futsal.  Even if soccer doesn't get her to college of choice, it has taught her skills to use later in life on how to deal with adults, teammates, crazy parents, crazy players, speed and velocity, angles, perseverance, and I can go on and on.


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## Keepermom2 (Apr 26, 2018)

G03_SD said:


> My dd is 5'2 and has maxed out as a jr. She works hard and always wants to play at higher level. She's very realistic when it comes to team and college recruitment.  She has been beaten out of a spot by 6' GK who cannot dive or catch a ball, but has good presence. And there had been occasions coaches invited her back because their giants could not get the job done.  She has very good grades and SAT and is looking to attend a highly competitive highly ranked academic college. Her strategy has been looking up schools that carry GK shorter than 5'5. She's talking to some and hopes soccer will open the door to the schools where grades/test scores will not get her through the standard admission process, but maybe soccer will move her application up top.  She's okay if she doesn't get a minute on the college field, there will be intramural, club or futsal.  Even if soccer doesn't get her to college of choice, it has taught her skills to use later in life on how to deal with adults, teammates, crazy parents, crazy players, speed and velocity, angles, perseverance, and I can go on and on.


I have a special place in my heart for 5'2" goalkeeper over looked by the American way of thinking that taller makes you a better Keeper because my older daughter experienced that and decided it wasn't worth the battle.  My younger Keeper daughter has been at a couple of trainings with Melissa Weck who I think is better than most D1 Keepers I have watched on TV.  Her technique, decisions, ability to fly at a moments notice and quick reflex is a pleasure to watch.  She was the goalkeeper when Slammers ECNL U18 team was the National Champion.   I read one place that Melissa's goal is to play professionally in Europe.  I am guessing because they don't focus in so much on height.  Kristin Klienow is another one that is exactly the same height as your daughter.  I included an article written about her.  Best to you and your daughter. 

Melissa Weck (5'4")
http://fgcuathletics.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=4044
This is Melissa's recruiting video from 2014 when she was 16 (Notice it says she is 5'5" yet her height posted at FGCU is 5'4")  




Kristin Klienow (5'2")
http://www.chapmanathletics.com/sports/wsoc/2016-17/bios/kleinow_kristin_y728
https://www.ocregister.com/2014/09/29/game-saving-sophomore/


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## GKMomma (Apr 26, 2018)

My daughter is 5'3" and 16 and I am pretty sure that she is done growing.  She has never shared time in the goal and has always been a FT goalkeeper.  She knows that she is short, and she has accepted that, but she works hard to make sure she can get to those high balls and shows that she has no fear.  She plays higher level soccer and I cannot imagine having to tell her that she has to play Flight 3 or even D3 because she is shorter.  She has been the starting GK at her HS for both years as well as captain, beating out Seniors and girls taller in her position.   She works out with boys who are over 6 ft, and her GK trainer treats her the same and expects nothing less than 200% effort from each of them.
Realistically, yes, the USWNT has keepers that are taller, but my daughter hasn't been called up to the NT, and honestly if it hasn't happened by now, it probably won't.  That's another thing she is realistic about.
I just don't see my daughter slacking off because her height is going to hold her back.  If a coach is going to choose one child over another simply based on height, then you will have bigger problems with that coach down the line, believe that!
Good luck and don't give up Goalkeeper parents!


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## Not_that_Serious (Apr 26, 2018)

When you are shorter you have to make it up with technique or crazy athleticism.  Favorite short keepers: Rene Higuita (was more like an attacking mid playing keeper), nick rimando (of course when he was younger, but can move better than Tim Howard can now),  and Jorge Campos (my favorite keeper at a whopping 5'6"). If i had a choice of course Id probably going with the 6'4"+ keeper but if they aree quick and can jump out the building, not going to push them out from between the sticks.


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## Keepers_Keeper (Apr 26, 2018)

Great Thread...lots of points.

Height:  My keeper is 5'8+ @ 15.5 yrs old.  Tall, lean, muscular and athletic.  Don't know where she got it   Physically she is the "perfect" keeper based on all the comments from coaches - she can dive high, low, great hands,fast feet, quick sprint, strong distribution etc.  That said, her height isn't what makes her a great keeper  - it's her technique, work ethic and natural ability.  There are many other keepers we know that have height and are physically similar, but can't move or catch the ball.  We know others that are small, quick and nimble and can get to the top of the goal to punch out a ball because they can physically get there by moving rather than being tall.  So yes, height is an advantage, but coaches can tell even by the keepers standing position and movement if they are skilled or just plain big.  I also hope coaches can see through 'showboating' - you know, when keepers make a very dramatic dive or make something look impressive but wasn't necessary to make the play. Why do a full extension dive on a slow moving ball with no opposing players advancing - just because you can?  That's probably another thread topic though 
Splitting:  This is a complex.  At first we (as parents) weren't sure about splitting 50/50.  Our ECNL teams split, except one team that doesn't have 2 qualified keepers, but that is about to change.  The advantages (training partner, someone who understands the GK position, warm-up partner, etc.) outweigh having to split time during games.  Being a GK is 75% training and practicing and 25% game time.  That said, the MOST important part of splitting the position is the other keeper.  Splitting works best if the keepers 1) get a long and aren't competitive with each other, 2) are similar in technique and physical ability, and 3) BOTH have the respect of the rest of the team. Keepers also need to train on the field together and with their team as well as in the goal.  Keepers that split time need to be tight with each other, not compete or try to one-up each other, and approach they way they play with their team as 'one voice'.  As far as splitting time, our keepers have a system and rotate starts.  Coach doesn't decide who starts, they do.  But I know some coaches have a primary keeper and the other is back-up. That wouldn't work for us.  We are fortunate in that her first year in HS (on varisty) she was the only keeper.  So she got full 90 minutes on the field, which was awesome.  
Coaching:  DD's coach is great, but is not a GK coach.  That's why its so important for the 2 keepers to challenge each other and be similar.  Our club does have GK coaching, but it's not the intensity my daughter and her keeper partner need or want.  They both have private training for technical and skill training (when they have time!).  I do wish the GK's time at practice was better utilized.  They sometimes spend an hour of every practice training and warming themselves up waiting for scrimmage, shooting, etc.  I really wish our club had a rotating GK coach that went to the fields for 30-45 minutes of the ECNL team practices to work with keepers. 
I'll get off my soap box   Thanks for providing this GK forum.  Very valuable and specific info is shared and much appreciated!


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## MWN (Apr 26, 2018)

Keepers_Keeper said:


> ... I also hope coaches can see through 'showboating' - you know, when keepers make a very dramatic dive or make something look impressive but wasn't necessary to make the play. Why do a full extension dive on a slow moving ball with no opposing players advancing - just because you can?  That's probably another thread topic though


Only the GK coaches can see through that.  Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill.  Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post.  OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique.  The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive.  My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving.  He does this multiple times.  The coach is getting pissed.  He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive."  Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half.  After the first half we are down by 3.  Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.

Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.


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## Woobie06 (Apr 26, 2018)

Keepers_Keeper said:


> Being a GK is 75% training and practicing and 25% game time.


Hi, I really liked your post a lot.  What you had to say about how splitting works on your DD's team seems pretty unique.  I can't believe the girls plan their own split schedule.  Kudos to both sets of parents, kids, and the coach.  This sounds like the best possible scenario for splitting.  I know some kids that share and this is not even close, not even remotely close to the relationship of the kids, parents, or the team for that matter.  I'm wondering if the player relationship with splitting is different with boys/girls?  Just curious.

I quoted the line in your post regarding the breakdown of training/game time regarding a keepers development because I had a question...That sounds right from a chronological time perspective - roughly 3 practices to 1 game.  Regarding development (fundamentals, technique, positioning, footwork, etc.) and game experience (game situations, pressure, defensive adjustments, etc.), there is an inflection point where the development becomes secondary to experience, where the overall ability and the growth occurs from actual experience (like going to college before getting a job). 

My question....Do you feel your player is missing out on "experience" or there is any detriment by splitting rather than playing full games?

Also, at that age(u16/17??) what do college recruiters/coaches say regarding splitting, etc.?

We are a few years away so just curious.  Thanks for the info.


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## Grace T. (Apr 27, 2018)

MWN said:


> Only the GK coaches can see through that.  Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill.  Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post.  OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique.  The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive.  My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving.  He does this multiple times.  The coach is getting pissed.  He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive."  Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half.  After the first half we are down by 3.  Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.
> 
> Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.


I'll one up you on this.  For a short time, my son had a coach that wanted him to block low shots with his feet rather than risk a proper scoop catch.


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## Keepers_Keeper (Apr 27, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> Regarding development (fundamentals, technique, positioning, footwork, etc.) and game experience (game situations, pressure, defensive adjustments, etc.), there is an inflection point where the development becomes secondary to experience, where the overall ability and the growth occurs from actual experience (like going to college before getting a job).
> My question....Do you feel your player is missing out on "experience" or there is any detriment by splitting rather than playing full games?
> Also, at that age(u16/17??) what do college recruiters/coaches say regarding splitting, etc.?


Thank you for even reading my reply   I know my DD's arrangement and situation is rather unique.  Its not perfect, but both she and we (parents) appreciate that the coach is very supportive and happy with his 02 keepers.  One less thing for him to worry about on the pitch!  That said, he has and does specify the starting lineup, including keepers, for very important games and/or if there is a different coach.  

To answer your question...   Yes, she is missing out on "experience" because she only has one half on the field for most games. But there are different types of experience.  Sometimes she has a really busy half with lots of action, sometimes it's the reverse.   However, she gets a different type of experience on the bench.  She hears the coach, watches the play, and there is a lot of play analysis (what works and what doesn't) during the half she is not playing.  Same is true for the other keeper.  Then they compare notes on what the coach said, players said, review the action the keepers had, etc.  I think this is also an important part of being a keeper - to be a leader on the field you have to observe from a different angle/perspective.   High School is a different situation.  She was fortunate to make varsity as a freshman and initially there was another keeper.  That keeper partnership was even better than her club partnership (she and the HS keeper challenged each other more). Mid season the other GK was not able to play so my DD played full time for the league games.  She LOVED it.  So it was an adjustment going back to  splitting time, but it is also a bit easier on her body 

Regarding college recruiters/coaches...she does have a recruiter who says that every college has more than one keeper on their roster and you have to earn your spot and priority.  We haven't talked to too many college coaches yet, but I do know that every coach and college has a different philosophy.  Many D1 programs (which is my DD's trajectory) have multiple keepers.  I've heard that some big D1 coaches recruit GKs specifically to be 'practice' or back-up keepers (i.e. they will likely not be game keepers but still want to play and attend the school and are content with that).  That's not my DD.  She wants to play, even if that means she selects smaller school with a less competitive D1 program that is growing.  Plus, school/education is the primary driver.  So when it comes to splitting time in college, I believe it is more an 'earn your spot' process, not a fixed split %.   

College recruiting for GKs is a whole other ball game, so I hope this forum has some good intel to help us with that process too


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## socalkdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> Basketball recruitment is already happening, she plays center for her junior high team (6th grade) to keep things fresh. My wife ran Track and played Basketball through college internationally so she's praying my kids switch to B-Ball. It's like the Cold War in my house when it comes to Soccer vs. Basketball.


Play both.  Forever.     Daughter plans on club soccer and High School Basketball.   She made two plays this weekend and it was her basketball training that helped her.   She is 12 and at 5'4" and she can easily touch the top bar and the constant rebounding helps with her vertical jump.   

Question for everyone,  I've notice in the NWSL that while the keepers are tall, can you be too tall?   I notice a number of them have trouble on the lower shots and getting their taller bodies down onto the ground.   Plus what is more important,   height, or wing span?   A girl that is two inches shorter but with a wing span 3 inches longer might be better?  Or no different?   

And if soccer is anything like basketball those heights are exaggerated by an inch or two, and include their shoes.


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## socalkdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> This is a really good thread...plus I think it is also super tough for parents of GK's...  I agree with so many things people have said, importance of playing full games, the mental aspect, the hall pass for guesting, number of touches and how different it is from field players, drama if there are differences in ability between the keepers, that keeping is much more than shot stopping, plus only one can play at a time, and above all if you don't play, you won't develop.
> 
> Just to share, our current philosophy right now is up through 9th grade (we are a few years away), we will have our DD on a team appropriate for her ability where she plays full-time, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance.  Hopefully it will be at the same level she plays at now, and optimistically it is with the same club.  That in addition with good training outside of what the club offers will hopefully be beneficial in the long run.  Going into 10th Grade if she splits time on an ECNL/DA or whatever it is at that time, she will at least get the opportunity for the larger showcase events to be seen (I know these events occur at the earlier age groups as well).  She is 4 years away from 10th grade, and splitting time in between is the equivalent of taking two years of development/playing away IMO.  That is a lot and too much to give.  This assumes she wants to be the FT Keeper (which she is currently, and has said she does not want to split).  I also worry that splitting time just because there are two keepers will affect her love to play...for a variety of reasons.  IMO, The better player should play more. It works that way at the other positions.
> 
> ...


Well said.  Don't forget playing on an average team as a keeper gets you more chances.   I've seen many games a keeper gets less than 5 chances.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 30, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Question for everyone, I've notice in the NWSL that while the keepers are tall, can you be too tall? I notice a number of them have trouble on the lower shots and getting their taller bodies down onto the ground. Plus what is more important, height, or wing span? A girl that is two inches shorter but with a wing span 3 inches longer might be better? Or no different?


Can you be too tall?  Yes and no.  

I'll be Captain Obvious here, but it's the lack of quickness that you're observing in those tall keepers who have trouble with low shots.  However, while quickness and size are rare together, they are not always mutually exclusive.  It is a special genetic lottery winner that gets both.  And if you have quickness AND height, look out.  Neuer is 6'4", and Peter Cech is 6'5" and neither of them hurt for quickness.  I would think that Kerri Walsh Jennings (6'2" Beach VB gold medalist) would have made an absolute BEAST of a goalkeeper.  She's got no trouble going to ground quickly.  

But yeah, I would think most women over 6 feet and men over 6'5" might have to overcome trouble with low shots and quickness of foot.


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## midreams (May 9, 2018)

MWN said:


> Only the GK coaches can see through that.  Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill.  Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post.  OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique.  The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive.  My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving.  He does this multiple times.  The coach is getting pissed.  He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive."  Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half.  After the first half we are down by 3.  Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.
> 
> Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.


My son is 14, 6 feet tall, 8th grade. He has been strickly a keeper for 4 straight years. He is lean and athletic, strong. He dives, but rarely flies through the air. Never showboats a save. Ill admit, at time Ive mentioned to him that he may want to fly a little more, because we all know many coaches love the acrobatics. But he wont - he hates the landing. He asks why he should put himself through landing flat on the ground if the ball is not saveable? Logically, it makes sense, and Ive learned this is his style and its not going to change. But I always wonder if that will hurt him later when trying to impress scouts, ect....


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## Woobie06 (May 9, 2018)

midreams said:


> My son is 14, 6 feet tall, 8th grade. He has been strickly a keeper for 4 straight years. He is lean and athletic, strong. He dives, but rarely flies through the air. Never showboats a save. Ill admit, at time Ive mentioned to him that he may want to fly a little more, because we all know many coaches love the acrobatics. But he wont - he hates the landing. He asks why he should put himself through landing flat on the ground if the ball is not saveable? Logically, it makes sense, and Ive learned this is his style and its not going to change. But I always wonder if that will hurt him later when trying to impress scouts, ect....


No need to showboat...I completely agree.  Although sometimes being flashy does get attention.  That said, my two cents and what I think is more impressive is a keeper who has a strong presence, confidence, consistency, command of the box and defense, and can start the attack through distribution (not punting).  I would like to think that coaches are looking for more than just shot stoppers.  

My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there.   He talks about constantly pushing and challenging your range.  I agree with DD's coach's approach.  Plus the optics are not the best when the keeper does not make the attempt for the ball whether they can get there or not.  I always remember Don Beebe of the Bills catching Leon Lett and forcing a fumble in the Superbowl (I am a Cowboy fan BTW) as a classic example of making the effort with a positive result....and if Leon was not showboating he would have scored the TD.  Leon....SMH.


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## Mystery Train (May 9, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> I always remember Don Beebe of the Bills catching Leon Lett and forcing a fumble in the Superbowl (I am a Cowboy fan BTW) as a classic example of making the effort with a positive result....and if Leon was not showboating he would have scored the TD. Leon....SMH.


Oh man.  As Cowboy fans, we can laugh that one off, because we won that game going away.  The Leon goof that kills me more was after the FG block against Miami in the snow on Thanksgiving.  My brother-in-law is a Dolphins fan and we were watching it together with a small wager on the game and lots of trash talk.  I just wanted to disappear.


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## Mystery Train (May 9, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there.


I try to get my DD to do this, because she doesn't fly through the air either.  It's hard to get her to understand how much more range she really has.  I will always remember as a teenager playing baseball with friends and trying to run down a deep fly ball that I thought I had no shot at.  I had never dove at a ball before, being afraid of getting hurt on the landing.  Goofing around, I dove extra dramatically almost as a joke, and blindly felt the ball land in the pocket.  My friends went crazy.  It felt so amazing, I didn't even remember what the landing felt like.  Needless to say, I dove at everything in every sport I played after that, sometimes even when I didn't need to.  Just to show off.  LOL.  But yeah, I wish she'd do it once in a while just to prove to herself that she can get some of those "impossible" shots too.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (May 9, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there.   He talks about constantly pushing and challenging your range.  I agree with DD's coach's approach.  Plus the optics are not the best when the keeper does not make the attempt for the ball whether they can get there or not.


Always, Always, Always g go for the save/dive for the ball. Always!  You may get there and even if you don't it shows the team that you gave everything you had to help.


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## Eagle33 (May 10, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> Always, Always, Always g go for the save/dive for the ball. Always!  You may get there and even if you don't it shows the team that you gave everything you had to help.


My son's keeper coach always told him "You are not going to save all the shots, but you should try"


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## Frank (May 11, 2018)

MWN said:


> Only the GK coaches can see through that.  Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill.  Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post.  OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique.  The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive.  My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving.  He does this multiple times.  The coach is getting pissed.  He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive."  Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half.  After the first half we are down by 3.  Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.
> 
> Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.


My guess is that the point of the drill was to get to the ground and warm up by doing it and not to see how far you could get. That’s likely why the coach got pissed.


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## AGK (May 19, 2018)

Technician72 said:


> You can extend that to the club in general, their idea of keeper training is quite often 10 goalies and 1 coach. Purely shooting drills with no emphasis on technique. You really having to be proactive as a parent of a GK and make sure they're getting properly trained.


So sorry that this has been you experience. We focus on both shot blocking sessions as well as team oriented sessions with our keepers. Perhaps a conversation with your DOC could lead to a better program.


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## AGK (May 19, 2018)

Eagle33 said:


> My son's keeper coach always told him "You are not going to save all the shots, but you should try"


I tell my keepers and their parent that I cannot teach desire. Every player in every sport is faced with the “if only I had.....” scenario. We try to challenge them to get stuck in from the time the referee blows the whistle till the time the referee blows the whistle.


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## mulliganmom (May 20, 2018)

On the subject of splitting - our DD was the only GK up until U15. Good experience, playing solo and sharing for all reasons cited about - competition, etc. We are looking at some scenarios now back to splitting or having the goal to ourself, and are finding it interesting that there is a coaching philosophy here too. Some coaches will only carry one keeper, others want two. Would love to hear more about that as this is the first year we are really seeing it from both sides as a keeper and seeing coaches with a direct opinion on this too. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks


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## MWN (May 20, 2018)

mulliganmom said:


> On the subject of splitting - our DD was the only GK up until U15. Good experience, playing solo and sharing for all reasons cited about - competition, etc. We are looking at some scenarios now back to splitting or having the goal to ourself, and are finding it interesting that there is a coaching philosophy here too. Some coaches will only carry one keeper, others want two. Would love to hear more about that as this is the first year we are really seeing it from both sides as a keeper and seeing coaches with a direct opinion on this too. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks


As the level of play increases and the kids get older, its less about player development and more about winning.  We just had a post in the GK forum that started out with the phrase that the team is looking for a keeper that can take the team to at least the semi's in National Cup for a U18 girls team (2001).  A good coach is going to want to carry at least 2 keepers at the older age group for 2 reasons: (1) training sessions can be more game like when doing small-sided play; and (2) injuries are more catastrophic at the older levels.  Some clubs will have multiple teams at an age group (generally at the younger levels) and can pull up keepers from other teams if in need, which is a luxury that the smaller clubs don't have and which disappears at the U16+ level for many programs given player attrition.


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## Keepermom2 (May 21, 2018)

As the girls become older they have more of social life.  To have a Keeper have to miss out on so many activities that they really want to do because they are the only Keeper and they don't want to let down the team, really sucks and has the potential for the Keeper to leave the sport because they want the social life.


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## Woobie06 (May 21, 2018)

Sorry this is a long one...the splitting dilema is a tough one....I agree it depends on the coaching philosophy, the kid, team, and parents (of both kids).  I have seen some very difficult/toxic situations if everyone is not on-board/same page - parent issues, issues among players, and drama, i.e. who plays in OT, Penalties, etc.  I also know kids who are upset they are splitting 50%/50% because they are better and should be playing more. 

There was a football coach who said this about quarterbacks, "if you have two, then you really don't have one."  I think it applies to keepers.    Finding the right fit is very key or there are going to be issues.  I think playing time at the keeper position should be the same as all others.  If one is better they should play more, not just both get half a game.  The better player should get more playing time like any other position.  It is earned in practice/training and by in-game performance.  

I am personally against splitting halves.  In my opinion, they should rotate starts and play full games for a variety of reasons - consistency during the game, keeping mentally focused for a full 90, you can't simulate stress and the end of close/tight game, time to recover from a mistake (rebuilding confidence), etc., among many others.  

Plus, in college, pro, etc. very rarely do you see in game keeper changes (mostly in friendlies, not in Tournaments or Qualifying Competitions).  In college, pro, etc. there most always is a clear starter.  You will see where the second keeper with starts against weaker opponents, where the starter will get starts against the stronger competition and knock-out games.  If they are equal (I think this is a rare scenario), alternate starts; or determine starts based on strengths, etc.  That said if one keeper is better they should get more starts, and play more full games-like any other player.  Just alternating halves because there are two, or to be fair makes no sense to me.

Lastly, I believe the coach needs to set the expectation with the children and parents, at the start.  Let the kids compete, but set the expectation that there will be a starter and a back-up, and the better player will play more.  Most often I hear coaches tell parents they are equal to avoid somebody leaving the team, or to avoid a conflict/confrontation.  Believe me, the field players on the team (and parents) can tell you who the starter is/should be, it is not a mystery.  The coach will usually tip their hand in knock-out games, or games with OT/PK potential to play the better keeper in the second half, and this keeper will play the OT and PK's if applicable.


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## Eagle33 (May 21, 2018)

Woobie06 said:


> Sorry this is a long one...the splitting dilema is a tough one....I agree it depends on the coaching philosophy, the kid, team, and parents (of both kids).  I have seen some very difficult/toxic situations if everyone is not on-board/same page - parent issues, issues among players, and drama, i.e. who plays in OT, Penalties, etc.  I also know kids who are upset they are splitting 50%/50% because they are better and should be playing more.
> 
> There was a football coach who said this about quarterbacks, "if you have two, then you really don't have one."  I think it applies to keepers.    Finding the right fit is very key or there are going to be issues.  I think playing time at the keeper position should be the same as all others.  If one is better they should play more, not just both get half a game.  The better player should get more playing time like any other position.  It is earned in practice/training and by in-game performance.
> 
> ...


I would really like to hear how this conversation will end... 
Coach: Hey, parent, your kid will not be a starter on my team, but I would really like him to join and sit on the bench just in case my superstar keeper gets injured.


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## Woobie06 (May 21, 2018)

How is this different from any conversation with a field player/parent that the player is not going to start but will get on average a number of x minutes, but can improve to earn more minutes?  These conversations happen often.  Some kids get 20 minutes a game in a 90 minute game, some less.  Are players/parents that sensitive that they can't receive honest feedback from a coach on where their player is?  Not every player is a starter, some players have roles, and some occasionally start.  I'm not saying not to play the second keeper, far from it.  I am saying the player performing better should play more because they have earned it through performance regardless if the player is a keeper or field player.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (May 21, 2018)

Most honest thing I ever heard from a coach was something along the lines of "...there is no starter and there is no backup.  I won't be splitting time 50/50.  They will earn it, or lose it, during practice each week, and I will play whomever I think has earned it or gives us a better match up."   My kid had no problem with that.


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