# Two girls fighting what is everyone's responsibility?



## socalkdg (Sep 4, 2017)

Two 2005 girls start fighting on the field what is everyone's responsibility?

Parent?  Coach?  Referee?  

Happened this weekend and was wondering what is supposed to happen to stop the fight as quickly and safely as possible?


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## Monkey (Sep 4, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Two 2005 girls start fighting on the field what is everyone's responsibility?
> 
> Parent?  Coach?  Referee?
> 
> Happened this weekend and was wondering what is supposed to happen to stop the fight as quickly and safely as possible?


Define fighting.  A quick hair pull, spitting, scratching, or multiple punches?  The response needs to be in proportion to the potential harm and warranted for the protection of both children.


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## LifeisGood (Sep 4, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Two 2005 girls start fighting on the field what is everyone's responsibility?
> 
> Parent?  Coach?  Referee?
> 
> Happened this weekend and was wondering what is supposed to happen to stop the fight as quickly and safely as possible?


It's not clear what exactly happened from the info provided, but pretty simple if there were punches thrown. Should be Automatic red cards for both from the ref.  2+ game suspension for each players and a review by Calsouth discipline committee.  Red cards cars will follow them. That usually does the job.


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## ForumParent (Sep 4, 2017)

Before discipline, I think you are referring to the more immediate issue of who should break up the fight/physically separate the two fighters?


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## Justafan (Sep 4, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Two 2005 girls start fighting on the field what is everyone's responsibility?
> 
> Parent?  Coach?  Referee?
> 
> Happened this weekend and was wondering what is supposed to happen to stop the fight as quickly and safely as possible?


If they are really going at it and it doesn't look like they will stop until somebody intervenes, then I say the closest adult capable of breaking it up. And I wouldn't care what the ref said, even if they kick me out.


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## MWN (Sep 4, 2017)

Parent has zero responsibility.  The fact the kids are fighting is evidence that parental influence is further is unwarranted and will probably make things worse.  Stay on the sideline.  Step on the pitch and be prepared to get suspended for a few games.  Seriously, stay on the sideline.

Referee's responsibility is to prevent the fight from becoming a "mass confrontation" and attempt to stop through verbal commands and separate players if it can be done without escalation, injury to referee or other players.  In the case of 2005 girls, just about any adult/18+ referee should be able to safely separate, but who knows without more info.   If fight become mass confrontation, referees go into "triangle of control" and observe and report and get ready to show some yellow and reds.
See, https://www.massref.net/ussfdirectives/Game_Disrepute_and_Mass_Confrontation.pdf

Coach responsibility is to call all players to stand down.

Teammates responsibility is to separate their teammate and try to calm situation.


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## MWN (Sep 4, 2017)

Justafan said:


> If they are really going at it and it doesn't look like they will stop until somebody intervenes, then I say the closest adult capable of breaking it up. And I wouldn't care what the ref said, even if they kick me out.


And then you enter the field, the other parents enter the field.  Now we have parents fighting.  Stay off the field, let the Refs handle it.


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## Justafan (Sep 4, 2017)

MWN said:


> And then you enter the field, the other parents enter the field.  Now we have parents fighting.  Stay off the field, let the Refs handle it.


If the ref is 30-40 yards away and the "intense" fight is right in front of me, yes I will step in to break it up.   I'd probably use a loud commanding voice to try and stop it from the sideline before I'd enter the field to physically break it up.


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## socalkdg (Sep 4, 2017)

ForumParent said:


> Before discipline, I think you are referring to the more immediate issue of who should break up the fight/physically separate the two fighters?


Yes.

Quickest correct way to get the fight stopped.  My thinking was the referee or AR.  Was also wondering what other coaches have done.  Figured parents need to stay off the field.


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## charlie murphy (Sep 4, 2017)

A parent breaking up the "fight" in this situation is a bad idea. Unless that can be done without physical contact. The "parent " in this situation is a spectator. That person has no authority to enter the field.  The responsibility for play safety falls firmly on the players, the refs and the coaches. If the kids are irresponsible enough to "drop the gloves" and go at on the soccer pitch it is highly unlikely that the parent(s) of at least one of those kids is not in someway going to question "why YOU got involved ....why you touched my kid.....what business of it is yours". At which point your personal safety could be in danger, for doing the right thing. It is a very sad situation but it is the very real world we live. I am not sure what my reaction would be if I was the witness to this. If this did happen the cards should be issued , suspension issued and the situation reviewed.


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## Real Deal (Sep 4, 2017)

So what did happen?


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## Fact (Sep 4, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> A parent breaking up the "fight" in this situation is a bad idea. Unless that can be done without physical contact. The "parent " in this situation is a spectator. That person has no authority to enter the field.  The responsibility for play safety falls firmly on the players, the refs and the coaches. If the kids are irresponsible enough to "drop the gloves" and go at on the soccer pitch it is highly unlikely that the parent(s) of at least one of those kids is not in someway going to question "why YOU got involved ....why you touched my kid.....what business of it is yours". At which point your personal safety could be in danger, for doing the right thing. It is a very sad situation but it is the very real world we live. I am not sure what my reaction would be if I was the witness to this. If this did happen the cards should be issued , suspension issued and the situation reviewed.


I agree with you completely except when there are kicks to or stomps on the head.  I've seen more than a few times a down goalie get repeatedly kicked in the head and stomped on.  In this case I don't care whose kid it is or how big their dad is.  When it was a couple of kids doing the damage I jumped on the down goalie and shielded his head until the ref crew got the beasts away.  A few punches is very different then blows to the head.


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## AZsoccerDad (Sep 4, 2017)

Parents should not step in....good way to get into huge trouble.


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## Supermodel56 (Sep 5, 2017)

Very general but, I'd say:

1) Parents/Spectators: Stay off the field and do your best to stay calm.

2) Players: You're probably closest, best to stay away as well, if you are calm, possibly you can try to calm them down as well, but this can also easily escalate the situation. If you're going to try to get in between and push someone back, make sure it's your own teammate.

3) Coach: Each coach needs to step in and pull his/her own player away from situation and help them calm down. Doing anything with the other player, even using words can be interpreted as a sign of aggression and make the situation worse.

4) Refs: Call for security/support. You'll need them anyway to escort the players off. Depending on the situation and relative size of players, maybe can try to get in between and calm them down, but again, parents/coaches can interpret this as a sign of aggression and then come after you, starting a brawl. Have red cards ready.


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## socalkdg (Sep 5, 2017)

Real Deal said:


> So what did happen?


My daughters fellow 05 Bronze team was in a tournament with us, playing a Bronze 04 team, which was much bigger, but lacked some ball skills.  The  05 team had a number of 06's guest playing, none of them very physical.  The 04 opponent was very physical especially off the ball with pushing, grabbing, elbowing and shoving going on, referee's let them play.   One AR had been watching it and just shrugged his shoulders when asked if anything was going to be done, saying what am I supposed to do.  It was clearing escalating, getting worse in the second half. 

Near the end of the game away from the ball a girl on the other team kicked one of the players from behind when her back was turned, knocking her to the ground.  She got up and pushed the girl, then punches were thrown.  Parent of the 05 team ran out for his daughter, getting into the face of the other girl,  leading to other team parent coming out, etc.   Eventually peace was restored.  No cards were given out to either girl.

My daughters team played this same 04 team the next day and when the game started to get too rough(illegal rough), the referees used their yellow cards on the different girls which seemed to do the trick keeping the game physical but controlled.


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## MWN (Sep 5, 2017)

As referees we attempt to deescalate the "Game Disrepute" and prevent it from becoming a "Mass Confrontation."  Once a fight begins, the proper response from the AR's is to drop their flags, rush to the location of the incident and attempt to calm the situation (while making note of the players needing discipline ... yellows and reds).  Any player joining the group with any action that can be interpreted as aggressive is to receive a caution (yellow) or be sent off if swinging (red).

As a parent (aka spectator aka financier aka chauffeur), I can appreciate the overwhelming desire to come to the rescue of your child, especially if your kid is getting the worst of it or being ganged up on.  Nothing I say is going to prevent a Dad from rushing to the aid of your kid who is getting the snot knocked out of them, I get it.  But, there is a procedure and process and parents entering the field just complicated everything and there will be repercussions that could include being suspended and/or banned for the season or life by Cal South.


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## timbuck (Sep 5, 2017)

06 players are in 5th or 6th grade.  04 players are mostly in 8th grade.
06 players are just entering the "physical" nature of soccer and I believe are still playing 9v9.
04 players are pretty physical, especially if they are (as you mentioned) lower in skill.
Not that this justifies a fight, but this was a bad situation all the way around.  Playing up a year and then having players from a year below that is not a good idea at a tournament.  
I've seen top flight teams play up into the middle flight of a tournament before and it's worked out ok.  But to play up at the lower level is not recommended.
I hope that everyone is ok.


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## genesis (Sep 5, 2017)

Supermodel56 said:


> Very general but, I'd say:
> 
> 1) Parents/Spectators: Stay off the field and do your best to stay calm.
> 
> ...


5) If all else fails break out the Boxing Gloves and let em go at it!


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## Supermodel56 (Sep 5, 2017)

genesis said:


> 5) If all else fails break out the Boxing Gloves and let em go at it!


If your kids aren't involved and you don't like the participants, just break out the popcorn...


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## Lambchop (Sep 5, 2017)

MWN said:


> And then you enter the field, the other parents enter the field.  Now we have parents fighting.  Stay off the field, let the Refs handle it.


Twelve year old girls come in a lot of sizes, one can  be turning 13 on Jan. 2 in 2018 the other can be turning 12 on Dec. 28th. 2017. One can weigh 160 pounds the other 90, if the ref is at the other end of the field someone could be seriously hurt if it is a serious physical fight.  If the ref isn't close or the coach, then a responsible adult should stop it.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> My daughters fellow 05 Bronze team was in a tournament with us, playing a Bronze 04 team, which was much bigger, but lacked some ball skills.  The  05 team had a number of 06's guest playing, none of them very physical.  The 04 opponent was very physical especially off the ball with pushing, grabbing, elbowing and shoving going on, referee's let them play.   One AR had been watching it and just shrugged his shoulders when asked if anything was going to be done, saying what am I supposed to do.  It was clearing escalating, getting worse in the second half.
> 
> Near the end of the game away from the ball a girl on the other team kicked one of the players from behind when her back was turned, knocking her to the ground.  She got up and pushed the girl, then punches were thrown.  Parent of the 05 team ran out for his daughter, getting into the face of the other girl,  leading to other team parent coming out, etc.   Eventually peace was restored.  No cards were given out to either girl.
> 
> My daughters team played this same 04 team the next day and when the game started to get too rough(illegal rough), the referees used their yellow cards on the different girls which seemed to do the trick keeping the game physical but controlled.


I don't get the "let them play on" philosophy, particularly with the youngers.  I get that we don't want to disrupt the game for every little foul and/or injury.  I also get that calling everything just leads to players flopping.  But when games get out of control, one leading cause is because the refs are letting them play on, a series of minor offenses begin to escalate, soon the parents are getting all angry, and the ref looses control of the game.


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## sandshark (Sep 5, 2017)

If any of my kids played dirty or took the first punch the Yellow or Red card would be the least of their problems!


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## MWN (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> I don't get the "let them play on" philosophy, particularly with the youngers.  I get that we don't want to disrupt the game for every little foul and/or injury.  I also get that calling everything just leads to players flopping.  But when games get out of control, one leading cause is because the refs are letting them play on, a series of minor offenses begin to escalate, soon the parents are getting all angry, and the ref looses control of the game.


That's true.  Some referees do not have a command presence on the field, they don't talk to the players, they don't talk to the coaches, they don't address the parents when appropriate.  I witnessed a State level referee working a tournament do that this weekend.  My style is appreciated by some and hated by others.  I am quick to address the parents on the sideline and inform them their comments are unwarranted and violate the Cal South Code of Conduct (click here to view).

On the pitch, I'm constantly talking to the players, making eye contact, facial expressions that demonstrate my displeasure.  Fouls I let go (trifling) or fouls that are borderline, I give the benefit of the doubt to the player, but will talk to the player and say something like "You do that again and I'm giving you a yellow."  When a foul occurs and its an advantage situation, I signal and try to yell "Advantage" rather than "Play On" so the players and coaches know I saw the foul and I'm not calling it because of advantage.  

With regard to game dynamics, I find that coaches that scream and shout and complain about everything, feed into the parents on the sideline that adopt the same style, which feeds the players who become more aggressive.  I find that by shutting down the parental side at the first sign of trouble, the players think (...damn... this guy just told my Dad to zip it or leave ... I better just listen to coach).  I'm also quick to address the parents whenever their comments cross the line of creating the potential for the other set of parents to respond (e.g. "Ref!!!! Give him a Red, that was a Red," which always riles up the other set of parents and then we have the battle of the Dumbass Dads talking smack to each other.


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## socalkdg (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> I don't get the "let them play on" philosophy, particularly with the youngers.  I get that we don't want to disrupt the game for every little foul and/or injury.  I also get that calling everything just leads to players flopping.  But when games get out of control, one leading cause is because the refs are letting them play on, a series of minor offenses begin to escalate, soon the parents are getting all angry, and the ref looses control of the game.


Agree.  A couple yellows when we played the same team kept it a soccer game, not a UFC match.  

It seems when girls don't have the soccer skills to play the game, they go with what they can do which is get as physical as they can, which is fine as long as the elbows stay in and the full hand shoves from behind don't occur and dirty play doesn't enter into the game.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Agree.  A couple yellows when we played the same team kept it a soccer game, not a UFC match.
> 
> It seems when girls don't have the soccer skills to play the game, they go with what they can do which is get as physical as they can, which is fine as long as the elbows stay in and the full hand shoves from behind don't occur and dirty play doesn't enter into the game.



It's not just the girls....the U9 boys do it too.  We encountered a team at a tournament a few weeks back that had the elbows out, full blown shoving (including our striker on the run into the post), and a kick the keeper's groin.  They were also jumping up the line on the throw ins, impeding away from the ball and the refs weren't calling any of it.  When the parents on both ends started to catcall at each other, I started getting nervous that something might happen.  DYS team had the better soccer skills....they are still playing some kickball but for the most part try and possess it or pass it.  The other team had a do anything and everything philosophy to get the ball up to the goal.  It was the first time our team encountered a very physical team....they had the look of fear in them the first half and got pounded, but was proud that by the 2nd half they had this look that they were going to at least keep it close and played like animals.  We lost, but we kept it close, and if the 2nd had been the entire game would have won.  I still say our team played the better soccer.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

No fighting


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> I don't get the "let them play on" philosophy, particularly with the youngers.  I get that we don't want to disrupt the game for every little foul and/or injury.  I also get that calling everything just leads to players flopping.  But when games get out of control, one leading cause is because the refs are letting them play on, a series of minor offenses begin to escalate, soon the parents are getting all angry, and the ref looses control of the game.


but the bigger leading cause is the coach allowing the players to play like that, or, even encouraging it, along with the player's parents allowing it. the referees don't coach your kids how to play dirty or lose their tempers, nor do we parent the kids to act like thugs. it may be true that a referee who can see the temperature of a game rising, can help to control it, but that isn't always the case. sometimes, thugs will be thugs, and all we can do is deal with it after the fact.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> but the bigger leading cause is the coach allowing the players to play like that, or, even encouraging it, along with the player's parents allowing it. the referees don't coach your kids how to play dirty or lose their tempers, nor do we parent the kids to act like thugs. it may be true that a referee who can see the temperature of a game rising, can help to control it, but that isn't always the case. sometimes, thugs will be thugs, and all we can do is deal with it after the fact.


I blame it on the Refs>coaches>parents>village


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

@baldref Thug?


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

MWN said:


> That's true.  Some referees do not have a command presence on the field, they don't talk to the players, they don't talk to the coaches, they don't address the parents when appropriate.  I witnessed a State level referee working a tournament do that this weekend.  My style is appreciated by some and hated by others.  I am quick to address the parents on the sideline and inform them their comments are unwarranted and violate the Cal South Code of Conduct (click here to view).
> 
> On the pitch, I'm constantly talking to the players, making eye contact, facial expressions that demonstrate my displeasure.  Fouls I let go (trifling) or fouls that are borderline, I give the benefit of the doubt to the player, but will talk to the player and say something like "You do that again and I'm giving you a yellow."  When a foul occurs and its an advantage situation, I signal and try to yell "Advantage" rather than "Play On" so the players and coaches know I saw the foul and I'm not calling it because of advantage.
> 
> With regard to game dynamics, I find that coaches that scream and shout and complain about everything, feed into the parents on the sideline that adopt the same style, which feeds the players who become more aggressive.  I find that by shutting down the parental side at the first sign of trouble, the players think (...damn... this guy just told my Dad to zip it or leave ... I better just listen to coach).  I'm also quick to address the parents whenever their comments cross the line of creating the potential for the other set of parents to respond (e.g. "Ref!!!! Give him a Red, that was a Red," which always riles up the other set of parents and then we have the battle of the Dumbass Dads talking smack to each other.


i agree in principle to most of the things you say, and i do some of the same things like not putting up with dumbass coaches and parents, but, it shouldn't be our job to police these people. they should act like civilized, intelligent human beings. unfortunately, that is not the case for the most part. 
many referees who are very good referees, don't have the ability to play policeman, or counselor to these "people" who are abusing them, the other team, and each other. responsibility for your own actions, while watching your kids play a game should be basic common courtesy and sense.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> @baldref Thug?


look it up. i'm assuming since you're here, you can use the internet......


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> look it up. i'm assuming since you're here, you can use the internet......


I ain't looking up shit

U Littles aren't thugs especially on the dd side of the game


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## BeepBeep Boop (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> I ain't looking up shit
> 
> U Littles aren't thugs especially on the dd side of the game


Girls side has less physicality, and part of that is social conditioning. Parents treat girls like "girls", then act shocked and surprised when Suzie from the other team cracks the hell out of their daughter. If they had a son who got cracked by Johnny from the other team they'd be telling their son to suck it up and fight back. But for whatever reason most parents I see allow their daughter to play timidly, as if taking a hard hit (or dishing it out) isn't part of the game. Not dirty play, physical play. Definitely not throwing punches.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

BeepBeep Boop said:


> Girls side has less physicality, and part of that is social conditioning. Parents treat girls like "girls", then act shocked and surprised when Suzie from the other team cracks the hell out of their daughter. If they had a son who got cracked by Johnny from the other team they'd be telling their son to suck it up and fight back. But for whatever reason most parents I see allow their daughter to play timidly, as if taking a hard hit (or dishing it out) isn't part of the game. Not dirty play, physical play. Definitely not throwing punches.


I have yet to see my dd play against a *thug*

I have seen refs and coaches that let the game get ugly 

My dd isn't allowed to throw

My dd isn't allowed to put her shin bone against the  head of anyone's dd on the field or in the classroom


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> but the bigger leading cause is the coach allowing the players to play like that, or, even encouraging it, along with the player's parents allowing it. the referees don't coach your kids how to play dirty or lose their tempers, nor do we parent the kids to act like thugs. it may be true that a referee who can see the temperature of a game rising, can help to control it, but that isn't always the case. sometimes, thugs will be thugs, and all we can do is deal with it after the fact.


But the opposing players and parents can't control for bad coaching and clueless parenting on the other side. The reality is there are coaches out there that believe in winning at any cost over teaching. It's up to the ref to ensure that those coaches dont do it in a way that violates the laws. If those coaches think they'll get away with it they'll continue the race to the bottom.  And if parents and players don't think the ref is there to keep things fair and safe they'll be encouraged to take matters in their own hands.  The ref is certainly not the most culpable.  But it's their job to enforce the rules.


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## socalkdg (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> but the bigger leading cause is the coach allowing the players to play like that, or, even encouraging it, along with the player's parents allowing it. the referees don't coach your kids how to play dirty or lose their tempers, nor do we parent the kids to act like thugs. it may be true that a referee who can see the temperature of a game rising, can help to control it, but that isn't always the case. sometimes, thugs will be thugs, and all we can do is deal with it after the fact.


Funny you mention that as our head coach had a run in with theirs.   Warming up before a 9 am game.  We are at one end of the field warming up, daughter in goal while the girls doing a pass then shoot drill.   The coach of the other team comes over and tells us to get to the other end because they are visitors and they get to choose sides. Our coach says that is for when the game starts, their coach starts to argue and yell, so our girls gather up and just go to the sideline with coach.   You are very right about kids being a reflection of their coach, as are the parents.   You referees just get to be the babysitters.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Funny you mention that as our head coach had a run in with theirs.   Warming up before a 9 am game.  We are at one end of the field warming up, daughter in goal while the girls doing a pass then shoot drill.   The coach of the other team comes over and tells us to get to the other end because they are visitors and they get to choose sides. Our coach says that is for when the game starts, their coach starts to argue and yell, so our girls gather up and just go to the sideline with coach.   You are very right about kids being a reflection of their coach, as are the parents.   You referees just get to be the babysitters.


Interesting, since visitors NEVER gets to choose side, it's ALWAYS the home team for ALL tournaments and league games.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Funny you mention that as our head coach had a run in with theirs.   Warming up before a 9 am game.  We are at one end of the field warming up, daughter in goal while the girls doing a pass then shoot drill.   The coach brings of the other team comes over and tells us to get to the other end because they are visitors and they get to choose sides. Our coach says that is for when the game starts, their coach starts to argue and yell, so our girls gather up and just go to the sideline with coach.   You are very right about kids being a reflection of their coach, as are the parents.   You referees just get to be the babysitters.


I've seen so many similar examples. and the truth of the matter is, our referee base has many good referees who can officiate games just beautiful. but not all of these good referees have the experience and where with all to deal with, pardon me for saying, assholes. it is truly a shame that this is the state of youth sports. i saw some incredible soccer this weekend at blues cup. i also saw loads of crap from coaches and parents, none of which was necessary or enhanced or advanced their players or teams goals.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> But the opposing players and parents can't control for bad coaching and clueless parenting on the other side. The reality is there are coaches out there that believe in winning at any cost over teaching. It's up to the ref to ensure that those coaches dont do it in a way that violates the laws. If those coaches think they'll get away with it they'll continue the race to the bottom.  And if parents and players don't think the ref is there to keep things fair and safe they'll be encouraged to take matters in their own hands.  The ref is certainly not the most culpable.  But it's their job to enforce the rules.


again, especially with younger players, your referees, which may be very good at refereeing soccer, may not be experienced enough to deal with out of control teams, coaches or parents. it's not their fault if coach A thinks is OK for sally to kick jane. it's not their fault if sally's parents encourage her to beat on jane. they know the laws of the game and use them to the best of their abilities. if sally punches jane and they see it, then sally gets sent off. they can't stop sally from acting like a thug.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> I have yet to see my dd play against a *thug*
> 
> I have seen refs and coaches that let the game get ugly
> 
> ...


then you're not the problem nor is your daughter. but i have seen the thugs, although i would rather not have. i guess i've just seen more games than you have.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> again, especially with younger players, your referees, which may be very good at refereeing soccer, may not be experienced enough to deal with out of control teams, coaches or parents. it's not their fault if coach A thinks is OK for sally to kick jane. it's not their fault if sally's parents encourage her to beat on jane. they know the laws of the game and use them to the best of their abilities. if sally punches jane and they see it, then sally gets sent off. they can't stop sally from acting like a thug.


The point which initiated this dialogue isn't that a ref can prevent it. It's that when the ref sees the infraction they should enforce the laws while often times games spin out of control if a ref chooses to ignore the initial more minor infractions rather than set his or her authority up front. If a ref ignores the infraction it only encourages those certain coaches and players to push the envelope further and the other side to retaliate.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> The point which initiated this dialogue isn't that a ref can prevent it. It's that when the ref sees the infraction they should enforce the laws while often times games spin out of control if a ref chooses to ignore the initial more minor infractions rather than set his or her authority up front. If a ref ignores the infraction it only encourages those certain coaches and players to push the envelope further and the other side to retaliate.


and when the ref calls every single little foul, it ruins the game and the coaches and parents bitch about that too. your blame is misguided, except in very, very, very, few situations. and in those situations that do exist, where the referee isn't "up to snuff" so to speak, that's when the parent or the coach steps in and tells their kid to knock the crap off.


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## socalkdg (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> then you're not the problem nor is your daughter. but i have seen the thugs, although i would rather not have. i guess i've just seen more games than you have.


Do you yellow card them when they start to get out of hand? Pushing girls onto the ground when they aren't near the ball, kicking them in the back of legs to knock them down?   Elbows to the face?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 5, 2017)

Of course referees have a responsibility to manage the game, and try to keep things cool using the limited tools that they have. Its stupid to suggest, however, that fights and violent play is usually caused by the referee.

If the referee cannot stop the fight with the whistle, the next best thing is the coaches. Almost every big melee results from one thing: parents that enter the field.

In most of these situations, there are common symptoms: parents and coaches that put up with dirty play by their kids and players; the thug mentality passed down by parents who are no strangers to fights themselves; general low-class behavior, and people whose self-worth is wound up in whether Ricardo or Katelyn win their game.


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## socalkdg (Sep 5, 2017)

So once the girls are fighting, who breaks up the girls.   The Coaches, the Refs, or just the center referee?  What about the AR?  but not the parents, correct?


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

Ref>Coach>parent 

Plain and simple google it lol


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Do you yellow card them when they start to get out of hand?


do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> So once the girls are fighting, who breaks up the girls.   The Coaches, the Refs, or just the center referee?  What about the AR?  but not the parents, correct?


that's a good question. depends on the circumstances. but i have learned over the years, even well intention-ed touching of a player can be a bad thing.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.


 with all due respect. Don't call u Littles thugs


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## texanincali (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.


First of all, thank you for being a referee - I realize that it can be a thankless job much of the time, but there are those of us that do realize the game at the youth level can't survive without you.

I will try to do my best not to offend you - but my opinion on this discussion is pretty solid and I can't see anyone being able to sway me to the other side.

I am a firm believer that the referee and the referee alone is responsible for the way in which a match is played.  Yes, I realize that managers, players and parents all play a role, but in the end, the referee has all the power to change a match before it gets out of hand.  Now, there might need to be a conversation about whether or not many referees can recognize a game getting out of hand, especially if they have never played, but lets's leave that conversation for another day.

If you don't mind - I have a few questions.  I would really appreciate it if you could shed some light on your thoughts.
1)  Do you call a U11 game any differently than you do a U17 game?  If so, how?
2)  Do you use the same criteria for a caution and a sending off in the younger age groups as you do the older age groups?
3)  How often do you find yourself bringing both captains in for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction?  What about your fellow referees?
4)  How many times do you bring both coaches together for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction?

Hopefully, I can better understand where a ref is coming from based on your response.


----------



## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> and when the ref calls every single little foul, it ruins the game and the coaches and parents bitch about that too. your blame is misguided, except in very, very, very, few situations. and in those situations that do exist, where the referee isn't "up to snuff" so to speak, that's when the parent or the coach steps in and tells their kid to knock the crap off.


Sounds like you have a problem with the laws then.  It's why we have the rules.  They say what can and can't happen on the pitch.  And we aren't talking about little de minimis violations, or violations to which advantage isn't put, or acts which aren't careless, reckless or use excessive force.  It's your job to enforce the rules, not rewrite them.  And no one is blaming the refs for the misconduct.  We blame the refs for losing control of the game.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> do i personally? a yellow card is one tool that can be used to control behavior in a game. with younger players, most of the time some stern language and the fact that you let them know you're watching is going to be enough..... for me that is. I'm a large old man, sort of intimidating without trying. if that doesn't get their attention, than yes, a card can be effective, but not always. i don't do many youngers anymore, because i have enough experience to do the older games, and that's where the experienced referees are needed more.


I think that u-littles need experienced referees more than u-olders.  How is inexperienced referee suppose to control sideline behavior of parents who have no clue about LOTG or coaches out of control? I've seen a lot more problems at u-little games lately because of inexperienced referees. They are trying but just don't know how to deal with all of it yet. 
On the other hand there are plenty of experienced refs who is way past keeping up with older games, but still doing it simply because of better pay. Assignors should do a better job recognizing who should be doing which games and we would have less issues at either games.


----------



## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> with all due respect. Don't call u Littles thugs


sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
> kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.


They call some refs fat slobs who don't leave the circle


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

texanincali said:


> First of all, thank you for being a referee - I realize that it can be a thankless job much of the time, but there are those of us that do realize the game at the youth level can't survive without you.
> 
> I will try to do my best not to offend you - but my opinion on this discussion is pretty solid and I can't see anyone being able to sway me to the other side.
> 
> ...


i disagree with you.

If you don't mind - I have a few questions.  I would really appreciate it if you could shed some light on your thoughts.
1)  Do you call a U11 game any differently than you do a U17 game?  If so, how? yes. they are different so they need to be officiated different. too many differences to list. 
2)  Do you use the same criteria for a caution and a sending off in the younger age groups as you do the older age groups? yes, and no. depends on what type of caution you're talking about. 
3)  How often do you find yourself bringing both captains in for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction?  What about your fellow referees? used to be more common. now, the captain is more of a figure head on a team that calls the coin toss, and not the true leader of the team. 
4)  How many times do you bring both coaches together for a quick chat when you see a match moving the wrong direction? never. coaches either get it or they don't. if they get it, they don't need me to tell them to reel in their players. if they don't get it, they won't listen anyway.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Of course referees have a responsibility to manage the game, and try to keep things cool using the limited tools that they have. Its stupid to suggest, however, that fights and violent play is usually caused by the referee.
> 
> If the referee cannot stop the fight with the whistle, the next best thing is the coaches. Almost every big melee results from one thing: parents that enter the field.
> 
> In most of these situations, there are common symptoms: parents and coaches that put up with dirty play by their kids and players; the thug mentality passed down by parents who are no strangers to fights themselves; general low-class behavior, and people whose self-worth is wound up in whether Ricardo or Katelyn win their game.


If I'm mistaken, I apologize in advance but this sounds a little bit classist.  I can tell you my DYS's team has played against poor largely Latino teams from the barrio and white/Asian teams from rich neighborhoods.  Never had any problem with the Latino or poor teams...they were the most brilliant of the passers and played true possession soccer.  The team my DYS had an issue with was a largely white, uppermiddle class team from a swanky neighborhood.  Winning at any cost is a mentality that can happen in either poor or rich neighborhoods.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> They call some refs fat slobs who don't leave the circle


yes. i guess you would.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> yes. i guess you would.


Not i said the parent 

I said they


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> I think that u-littles need experienced referees more than u-olders.  How is inexperienced referee suppose to control sideline behavior of parents who have no clue about LOTG or coaches out of control? I've seen a lot more problems at u-little games lately because of inexperienced referees. They are trying but just don't know how to deal with all of it yet.
> On the other hand there are plenty of experienced refs who is way past keeping up with older games, but still doing it simply because of better pay. Assignors should do a better job recognizing who should be doing which games and we would have less issues at either games.


this may be true in a way. there just aren't enough. i would also like to see some of the guys who have lost a lot of steps, go back down and do the younger games. they can't keep up with the olders, and they have the chops to deal with many of the issues we are discussing


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## texanincali (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> sure. how about ""undisciplined misbehaving violent delinquents"?
> kidding kind of...... my intent is to say that there are players, even little girls, who have been taught not to respect other players, and that a elbow to the ribs or kick in the calf, is something to be proud of.


Thank you for your response in the previous post - much appreciated.

Seeing as you disagree, I am curious as to why that is.  You actually bring up perfect examples in the post above.  When you have witnessed an elbow to the ribs (deliberate) or a kick to the calf (deliberate) in "little girls" soccer, did you send the off straight away?  If not, what did you do?


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

texanincali said:


> Thank you for your response in the previous post - much appreciated.
> 
> Seeing as you disagree, I am curious as to why that is.  You actually bring up perfect examples in the post above.  When you have witnessed an elbow to the ribs (deliberate) or a kick to the calf (deliberate) in "little girls" soccer, did you send the off straight away?  If not, what did you do?


if i see an act deserving a send off in any age game, i send off the player. my disagreement is in your blaming the referee for that act to begin with. or saying that if i don't call a push then the game is out of control and i caused the fight. the players actions are dealt with accordingly, after they happen. can calling a tight game keep things from happening? maybe, maybe not. that's up to the players, who are taught by coaches and parents on how to behave, not only in a game of soccer, but as a person in society.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

Baldref you need to take back that Thug reference


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## texanincali (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> if i see an act deserving a send off in any age game, i send off the player. my disagreement is in your blaming the referee for that act to begin with. or saying that if i don't call a push then the game is out of control and i caused the fight. the players actions are dealt with accordingly, after they happen. can calling a tight game keep things from happening? maybe, maybe not. that's up to the players, who are taught by coaches and parents on how to behave, not only in a game of soccer, but as a person in society.


I get where you are coming from - and honestly, I may have not communicated properly.  I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I don't blame a referee for missing calls, that is part and parcel to the game.  What I do blame referees for is not adhering to the laws of the game.  Let's put aside kids younger than U10 - very, very rarely do I ever see a kid sent off and I rarely even see cautions in the U11, U12, U13 age groups - although to be fair, they are happening more often as of late.  

What I do see are referees that don't hand out the proper punishment (send off, caution) because...well, they are only young kids.  Reckless and dangerous tackles happen numerous times in competitive U11-U13 games, way too much for my liking.  Most of the time they are dealt with by calling a foul, but in my opinion just calling a foul is not enough.  

I truly believe that if the laws of the game were followed more from the first year of select through U13-U14, we would not only see more free flowing games by the time kids reach U15, but we would have better players that would actually have to learn how to defend instead of just chopping opponents down.  

I guess in short - a sending off is a sending off, whether it is U11 or U19, a caution is a caution whether U11 or U19 - but very rarely do I see them called the same way.  For me, that is the issue.


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## Brian (Sep 5, 2017)

I think that the problem with this thread is that people are looking for absolutes when in fact the truth lies in the center.   Refs are confronted with different types of team mentalities from game to game.  A stern verbal warning in one game may work just fine, while sending off multiple players may have an aggravating result in another.  A couple of weeks ago we were in a game that was very aggressive and the ref warned, and then started sending off players.  The players being sent off were high fived by their coach and teammates upon reaching the sidelines.  The behavior worsened and remained for the balance of the match.  We were short on playing time because of the constant stoppage of play.  All in all it was a gross deviations from a normal match, but by no fault of the refs.   I think that most refs do their level best to control the game and in most instances their authority is respected, but not in all cases.  Some teams are trained to push the level of the laws to the breaking point and prosper by doing so.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

texanincali said:


> I get where you are coming from - and honestly, I may have not communicated properly.  I don't necessarily disagree with you.
> 
> I don't blame a referee for missing calls, that is part and parcel to the game.  What I do blame referees for is not adhering to the laws of the game.  Let's put aside kids younger than U10 - very, very rarely do I ever see a kid sent off and I rarely even see cautions in the U11, U12, U13 age groups - although to be fair, they are happening more often as of late.
> 
> ...


maybe that is true, in a way. but a caution as i said before is a tool. if you can get the same result from a younger player by talking to them, and explaining what it is they can not do, because some don't know, then that can even be batter than just a yellow card. and you also need to understand, with so many clubs and teams, there is such a huge difference in level of play, some kids just aren't coordinated enough, and something clumsy that by a skilled player would be a caution, might not be. 

but i do understand what you're saying, i just think there are more layers than you give credit to, and it's a bit more complicated.


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> Baldref you need to take back that Thug reference


or?


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## baldref (Sep 5, 2017)

Brian said:


> I think that the problem with this thread is that people are looking for absolutes when in fact the truth lies in the center.   Refs are confronted with different types of team mentalities from game to game.  A stern verbal warning in one game may work just fine, while sending off multiple players may have an aggravating result in another.  A couple of weeks ago we were in a game that was very aggressive and the ref warned, and then started sending off players.  The players being sent off were high fived by their coach and teammates upon reaching the sidelines.  The behavior worsened and remained for the balance of the match.  We were short on playing time because of the constant stoppage of play.  All in all it was a gross deviations from a normal match, but by no fault of the refs.   I think that most refs do their level best to control the game and in most instances their authority is respected, but not in all cases.  Some teams are trained to push the level of the laws to the breaking point and prosper by doing so.


hopefully, the coaches behavior was documented in the supplemental report and sent to the proper authority. and how many parents allow their kids to play for such a coach?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> with all due respect. Don't call u Littles thugs


If a thug is someone who has no respect for others, says "fuck" like its going out style, talks back to referees, looks to foul away from the ball, etc., there are too many of these even at ulittles. Sorry, its fact.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 5, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> If I'm mistaken, I apologize in advance but this sounds a little bit classist.  I can tell you my DYS's team has played against poor largely Latino teams from the barrio and white/Asian teams from rich neighborhoods.  Never had any problem with the Latino or poor teams...they were the most brilliant of the passers and played true possession soccer.  The team my DYS had an issue with was a largely white, uppermiddle class team from a swanky neighborhood.  Winning at any cost is a mentality that can happen in either poor or rich neighborhoods.


Not sure why you quoted my post. I made no reference to race nor cultures. In saying "low-class," I meant this in a manners and behavioral sense, not like a class of society. I should have said uncouth.


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## Grace T. (Sep 5, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Not sure why you quoted my post. I made no reference to race nor cultures. In saying "low-class," I meant this in a manners and behavioral sense, not like a class of society. I should have said uncouth.


Which is why I qualified my own response. No worries.  I thought it might just be an imprecise use of words...sorry if I misunderstood.


----------



## watfly (Sep 5, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> How is inexperienced referee suppose to control sideline behavior of parents who have no clue about LOTG or coaches out of control? I've seen a lot more problems at u-little games lately because of inexperienced referees.


Maybe were talking semantics, but a ref is not responsible for controlling the sideline behavior of the parents.  The coaches are responsible for controlling the behavior of the parents as is clearly stated by most, if not all, youth leagues.  Refs dealing directly with parents usually only escalates the situation. Plus that is exactly what the problem parents want to do is get under the skin of the ref and by getting in an argument with the ref the parent has accomplished his/her goal.   The experienced ref goes to the coach to deal with the problem parent and if the behavior continues the coach is displined or potentially the game is ended.  I have never seen any guidance that recommends that the ref confront a parent.  USSF guidance is as follows:

Dealing with Problem Parents
• Remain calm.
• Do not get into discussions or arguments with the sidelines.
• Enlist the support of the coach. Ask him to speak with the offending spectators and let him know that, if the behavior continues, the game will not. This will usually be enough to quiet most parents (other parents may understand the consequences and help with the problem spectator).
 • If you have asked the coach to deal with problem parents and the situation continues, ask the coach to have the spectator leave the area. If the spectator refuses, tell the coach that, if the spectator is not removed, the game will end. Give the coach a reasonable amount of time (a few minutes) to deal with the situation. Remember, you cannot dismiss a spectator directly but must work through the coach or a tournament or league official.
• If the parent does not leave, you should feel free to end the game. Include any misbehavior on the part of the spectators in your game report to the league so that this type of behavior can be disciplined and stopped. Most leagues and state associations have methods for dealing with bad behavior, but doing so often requires a written report from the referee.


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## Surfref (Sep 5, 2017)

I have not read all the posts so this may have been mentioned.  Referee's are trained on how to handle this type of situation so it does not escalate.  First of all, a referee should NEVER touch any youth player involved in a fight.  The referee does have a very useful tool in the whistle.  I have found that a very loud whistle only a couple feet from the players is enough to get their attention and allow the players teammates to separate them.  The trick is to prevent the teammates from not escalating the situation by using the whistle and loud voice commands to regain control. I have never had a fight, boys or girls, escalate beyond the initial two players.  Parents should NEVER enter the field.  I have witnessed a fight that escalated because parents stepped on the field to break up the fight and ended up getting hit or kicked.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> They call some refs fat slobs who don't leave the circle





The Driver said:


> Not i said the parent
> I said they


Yes "they" do. *In front of the "u littles, *" on the sideline, in front of you. Of course there are overweight referees that are not physically capable of moving far from the circle. As are there overweight referees that get up and down the field. And regular weight referees that don't move either.  

So, parents of 7,8,9,10 year old soccer players, in a public setting, think it is remotely reasonable or appropriate to state out load that the referee *"Is a Fat Slob who doesn't leave the center circle." *On the sidelines of a youth soccer game. In front of acquaintances and strangers. I can only imagine what they say to their kids on the ride home. 

And everyone here wasted 4 pages trying to figure out what mentality and conditions could result in 11-13 year old girls physically fighting each other on the soccer pitch. Like with most youth problems, its not their fault. They are raised by cretins, both their own parents and those around them in the community.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> or?


You are acting thuggish online

Look it up


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> If a thug is someone who has no respect for others, says "fuck" like its going out style, talks back to referees, looks to foul away from the ball, etc., there are too many of these even at ulittles. Sorry, its fact.


that's your classroom

Call mine a thug and you will not ever ever ref her against. 

#word


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## coachrefparent (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> that's your classroom
> 
> Call mine a thug and you will not ever ever ref her against.
> 
> #word


I have no idea who your child is. I would never tell a little kid they are a thug, even if they were. But in any event, I'm assuming your child doesn't do the things I described anyway.


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## NumberTen (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> Baldref you need to take back that Thug reference


Piss off you snowflake.  Are you blind?


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

NumberTen said:


> Piss off you snowflake.  Are you blind?


Snowflake?  LMBAO


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Sep 5, 2017)

genesis said:


> 5) If all else fails break out the Boxing Gloves and let em go at it!


Bear spray.


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## BeepBeep Boop (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> LMBAO


I think I get it now. Thug isn't being used the way you think it is. Give it a rest already.


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## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

ATRTDT said:


> Guess im a problem......
> 
> If my DD gets punched on or off the field, shes going to handle her own to protect her self and if that means taking the other individual out its going to happen.


Please try to avoid fighting

I'm all for protecting self though.


BeepBeep Boop said:


> I think I get it now. Thug isn't being used the way you think it is. Give it a rest already.


You don't get anything 

You don't get the fact that little girls are fighting

LMBAO


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## Sheriff Joe (Sep 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> I've seen so many similar examples. and the truth of the matter is, our referee base has many good referees who can officiate games just beautiful. but not all of these good referees have the experience and where with all to deal with, pardon me for saying, assholes. it is truly a shame that this is the state of youth sports. i saw some incredible soccer this weekend at blues cup. i also saw loads of crap from coaches and parents, none of which was necessary or enhanced or advanced their players or teams goals.


Did you see any crap refs? I sure did. A big floater right in the middle of field 19, and I don't complain about refs .


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## BeepBeep Boop (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> Please try to avoid fighting
> 
> I'm all for protecting self though.
> 
> ...


You can't even troll properly. Dumbass.


----------



## The Driver (Sep 5, 2017)

I've been called a troll and a snowflake today

I still say fighting in girls soccer is wack

I still say ref>Coach >parent


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## Surfref (Sep 5, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Did you see any crap refs? I sure did. A big floater right in the middle of field 19, and I don't complain about refs .


Wasn't me...I was on 16.


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## Fact (Sep 5, 2017)

The Driver said:


> I've been called a troll and a snowflake today
> 
> I still say fighting in girls soccer is wack
> 
> I still say ref>Coach >parent


Fighting is wack, but it does happen.  So accept it and learn to understand that even little girls can learn thug behavior from their coach and parents.  Otherwise sign your dd up for ballet.

We were watching our niece this weekend and it was amazing the learned behavior of some little girls; even teenage girls don't engage in some of this behavior because they know that they will get their butt kicked in or thrown out of the game.  Smack talking seems to start at a younger age, even to refs that did absolutely nothing.  If a child warrants a talk at a stoppage, the child warrants a card.  These kids know that they get one freebie and thus have no problem being aggressive.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Sep 5, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Wasn't me...I was on 16.


I didn't think it was you, but he was definitely a Homer.
Who gives a yellow for delay when the sub is still running to her position?


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## Surfref (Sep 5, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I didn't think it was you, but he was definitely a Homer.


A "Homer" at Blues Cup????  Highly unlikely as the refs were from all over California and out of state.  I worked with referee's from Bakersfield, Mexico, SF Bay Area, Oregon, Cerritos, San Bernardino, and El Cajon.  One referee was military and had recently transferred to SoCal.


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## Sheriff Joe (Sep 5, 2017)

Surfref said:


> A "Homer" at Blues Cup????  Highly unlikely as the refs were from all over California and out of state.  I worked with referee's from Bakersfield, Mexico, SF Bay Area, Oregon, Cerritos, San Bernardino, and El Cajon.  One referee was military and had recently transferred to SoCal.


 Just guessing, you would know more about that than me.


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## Ricky Fandango (Sep 5, 2017)

genesis said:


> 5) If all else fails break out the Boxing Gloves and let em go at it!


Thats what my dad used to do with us.
We were all males, at least at that point in our lives.


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## baldref (Sep 6, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Did you see any crap refs? I sure did. A big floater right in the middle of field 19, and I don't complain about refs .


wasn't me either. and i was busy watching my game so i didn't see him/her.

are there crap referees? sure.


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## texanincali (Sep 6, 2017)

baldref said:


> maybe that is true, in a way. but a caution as i said before is a tool. if you can get the same result from a younger player by talking to them, and explaining what it is they can not do, because some don't know, then that can even be batter than just a yellow card. and you also need to understand, with so many clubs and teams, there is such a huge difference in level of play, some kids just aren't coordinated enough, and something clumsy that by a skilled player would be a caution, might not be.
> 
> but i do understand what you're saying, i just think there are more layers than you give credit to, and it's a bit more complicated.


This is where we differ - and I don't think we can start cleaning up the game until it is done in the younger age groups.  Referees are not there to play counselor, they are not there to dictate the pace of the game and they are not there to teach kids the rules.  They are there to apply the rules during the match, plain and simple. 

A caution is not a tool, it is something given to a player that clearly violates the laws of the game for reasons clearly written in the laws of the game.  As a matter of fact, a player on a caution is often times substituted at higher levels when the manager thinks that player is at risk of being sent off, thus putting the team at a disadvantage.  When a caution is used strictly as a tool and not as a "one step closer to getting sent off", there is no point in giving it - especially if a referee takes into account that a player is already on a yellow when the next major offense takes place. 

Soccer is the only sport I can think of that applies the laws of the game are applied differently based on what age kids are.  In basketball a foul is a foul and when you receive 5 or 6 of them, you foul out of a game - other than maybe kindergartners, basketball players don't get an extra allotment of fouls when they are young.  In baseball, a strike is a strike (to be fair, strike zone maybe a bit bigger for the little ones), a ball is a ball and an out is an out.  In football, a clumsy, slow kid doesn't get to pull the face mask of an opponent just because he is slower and clumsier.

Again, I am very appreciative of the fact that you are out there refereeing games so our kids have a chance to play.  However, it is worrisome to me that any referee would take "coordination" into consideration when applying the laws of the game.  A late tackle is a late tackle, that endangers an opposing player no matter how "clumsy" a player is.  The laws of the game clearly state what the punishment is for endangering an opponent.

Now, I do not want to come across as advocating sending off and cautioning every player age 5-18 the same way across the board, common sense does have to come into play - I think this is where you are trying to make your point.  But we need to start somewhere, and that somewhere has to be with the younger players - but more so on the yellow card type of offenses.  Sending offs should be the same throughout every age group.

Take the example of a player deliberately elbowing an opposing player in the ribs.  If that player begins that type of behavior at 10 (God forbid 6,7,8) and only receives a caution or a stern talking to by the referee, that is not enough to cut that type of behavior out of her game.  Once she gets away with only a caution the first time, then she knows she can get away with it again.  As the years go by, she has now elbowed opponents 20 times and never has been sent off.  Add to that, she is now getting older and a bit wiser, so she expands her arsenal to a little kick out here and there, the elbows now rise to head level, she has begun to pull some hair every now and again and she seems to get away with two footed tackles - when she gets to be 14-15, it is too late to change her mentality.  Now, all of this could have been avoided if the referee had the gumption to send her off after that very first deliberate elbow to the ribs when she was 9.  I could go on and on about this, but I think you can tell where I am going.

The other thing that bothers me is the fact that someone mentioned previously, you can tell how a kid is being raised by their behavior on the field.  Once any kid walks across those white lines, they are no longer in their parents or coaches domain, they are in the referees domain and the players abide by the laws of the game in which the referee is applying or they get to go sit on the bench with the coach.  The beauty of this sport is that everyone is treated the same inside the lines.  Race, wealth, single parent, two parents, public school, private school, home school - none of it matters, they all play by the same rules during a match.

As for speaking with captains or coaches, it is bothersome that you as a referee has deemed the captains as "more of a figure head."  It isn't the job of the referee to decide if a kid is a good enough leader to be a captain, it is the job of the referee to speak to the "captains" each team has designated before the game, during the game and even after the game if needed.  If this is done at the first sign of a game getting out of hand, you are correct, there should be no need to ever bring the coaches into the conversation.  A very simple chat with the captains such as "listen you two, get your teammates to cut the crap out immediately, or I will not hesitate to go to my back pocket" will go a lot further than you think.  Furthermore, if/when you do have to send a player off, you now have the security of already having "warned" each team.

As you can tell, this is a hot button topic for me - and everyone wants the solution to be so complicated or ask referee's to become psychologists.  For me it is simple, apply the laws the same way across age groups, from young to professional.  When, and only when we begin to do this, we will begin to not only make our on the field product more enjoyable to watch, but we will also begin to develop better players.


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## Sheriff Joe (Sep 6, 2017)

baldref said:


> wasn't me either. and i was busy watching my game so i didn't see him/her.
> 
> are there crap referees? sure.


As there are crazy sideliners, but yellow cards 6 to 1? As you can tell I am still a little concerned. Just venting.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

texanincali said:


> This is where we differ - and I don't think we can start cleaning up the game until it is done in the younger age groups.  Referees are not there to play counselor, they are not there to dictate the pace of the game and they are not there to teach kids the rules.  They are there to apply the rules during the match, plain and simple.
> 
> A caution is not a tool, it is something given to a player that clearly violates the laws of the game for reasons clearly written in the laws of the game.  As a matter of fact, a player on a caution is often times substituted at higher levels when the manager thinks that player is at risk of being sent off, thus putting the team at a disadvantage.  When a caution is used strictly as a tool and not as a "one step closer to getting sent off", there is no point in giving it - especially if a referee takes into account that a player is already on a yellow when the next major offense takes place.
> 
> ...


I am almost always respectful of other people's views on this forum, but your extra long post is a load of bullshit.  I wish I had the technical knowhow to post the links to the US Soccer referee training videos that clearly state that a Yellow Card is just one "tool" that the referee can use to manage the game.  The training videos also discuss that not all fouls need to be called and the referee should only call the fouls that need to be called to maintain control af the game (game management).  I once watched a BU18 game and counted all of the fouls I saw.  By the end of the game I had counted 82 fouls of which the referee whistled only 17 (2 yellow cards) of them and signaled advantage 3 times.  The other fouls were not called because the player played through the foul, the foul was in the corner or near the goal line with the ball going out of play and the CR gave a corner or goal kick, ball went out for a throw-in, or the foul did not effect the game.  The game of soccer, especially the youth game, would be unwatchable if a referee called every foul.

The LOTG are not applied the same across all age groups.  Referee's are trained not to apply the LOTG equally across all age groups.  Example: A 10y/o will use their hands to protect their face from a ball while an 18y/o will just head it.  Did the 10y/o do anything wrong, no, but the parents and probably you will be yelling for handball.

As for your statement, "Once any kid walks across those white lines, they are no longer in their parents or coaches domain, they are in the referees domain and the players abide by the laws of the game in which the referee is applying or they get to go sit on the bench with the coach."  That is BS.  The parents have a lot to do with how that child will behave.  A child learns the majority of their behaviors from heir parents.  If the parent praises the kid for a nasty late tackle or hat he got a Yellow card for then that player will continue the nasty late tackles.  If the parent scolds the kid for the late nasty tackle and the Yellow card then it probably will not happen again. Most parents set a great or at least good example for their kids, but there are parents that set a poor example for their kids and it effects how the kid plays on the field.  All the referee can do is call the fouls and give cards.

If you are worried about an elbow or forearm to the ribs when players are trying to make space, than maybe you need to have your kid find another sport.  Soccer is a full contact sport.  As players get older they get more physical.  My DD will have multiple bruises and pinch marks after one of her college games and she rarely complains about the level of physical play or officiating.

Let's end on a positive not.  I do agree with you on the use of team Captains.  They can be a useful "tool" for the referee if they are mature enough and have some leadership skills.  I will often address an on field issue with captains, but the coach and spectators never hear us talk.  IMO captains usually do not start to possess the maturity and leadership skills until 14y/o.  Too many coaches select the best player as the captain when they should be selecting their player that shows the best leadership skills.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> As there are crazy sideliners, but yellow cards 6 to 1? As you can tell I am still a little concerned. Just venting.


Some teams play more reckless than others, thus more Cautions (Yellow cards) for them.


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## Sheriff Joe (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Some teams play more reckless than others, thus more Cautions (Yellow cards) for them.


3 were deserved in my novice opinion and 1 or 2  that would have led to an ejection for the other team were missed, the ref even turned and waved to our sideline after the game. Spilt Milk.


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## texanincali (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I am almost always respectful of other people's views on this forum, but your extra long post is a load of bullshit.  I wish I had the technical knowhow to post the links to the US Soccer referee training videos that clearly state that a Yellow Card is just one "tool" that the referee can use to manage the game.  The training videos also discuss that not all fouls need to be called and the referee should only call the fouls that need to be called to maintain control af the game (game management).  I once watched a BU18 game and counted all of the fouls I saw.  By the end of the game I had counted 82 fouls of which the referee whistled only 17 (2 yellow cards) of them and signaled advantage 3 times.  The other fouls were not called because the player played through the foul, the foul was in the corner or near the goal line with the ball going out of play and the CR gave a corner or goal kick, ball went out for a throw-in, or the foul did not effect the game.  The game of soccer, especially the youth game, would be unwatchable if a referee called every foul.
> 
> The LOTG are not applied the same across all age groups.  Referee's are trained not to apply the LOTG equally across all age groups.  Example: A 10y/o will use their hands to protect their face from a ball while an 18y/o will just head it.  Did the 10y/o do anything wrong, no, but the parents and probably you will be yelling for handball.
> 
> ...


Not exactly sure what you are on about - but I don't disagree with anything you said.  As a matter of fact I clearly stated that common sense needs to come into play with different age groups, and this would apply to the examples you mention above.  

I am not debating the calling of hand balls, advantage being played, or ordinary fouls being called or not called - those have been and always will be subjective as to what that particular referee sees.

You are obviously using the word "tool" differently than I am interpreting.  I read it as "issuing a yellow card for an offense that may not be a yellow card offense" to grab back control of the game.   I think we can both agree (or at least I hope so) that referees issue a yellow card because that player just committed a yellow card offense - nothing more, nothing less.

What I am speaking about are obvious yellow and red card offenses (the thread was started because of a fight) that go unpunished or underpunished too often for my liking.  As for the statement I made that you think is BS - go back and read it again - we are saying the same exact thing - and you seem to be handling those situations just as I would like a referee to.  My point was that no matter what environment a kid comes from, when they break the rules, the referee is the sole judge and jury as to how the player is punished.  If a kids parents cheer them on when receiving a yellow card for a nasty tackle, or a yellow card for persistent infringement - I don't think they will continue to cheer them on when they get sent off and suspended for the following match.  My issue remains that this is not done often enough.  

Lastly, I am not worried about contact in soccer, I have been through it and so have my kids - but again, go back and read the example given earlier about a kid deliberately elbowing an opponent in the ribs - the example given did not say this occurred during the run of play or accidentally - I took that example to being akin to punching a player in the face only a little bit lower.

Again, I am not sure where we got off track, because there is nothing you say above that I disagree with.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


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## Frank (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


So just another weekend.......


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## texanincali (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


No issues - you give perfect examples above, even though they might not necessarily be on the field issues.  

My question is - what was done in each of these circumstances?  What I am calling for is for more referees to immediately dismiss parents in ALL of the situations above and refuse to restart the game until they are out of sight.  When I speak about referees have control of the match (off field and on field), it is these type of circumstances that will continue to happen until referees stand up for themselves - I don't care if they have to dismiss the entire sideline.  When word spreads about referee's that are willing to take those steps, things will start to change.  I believe the same for on field issues.

Can you shed any light on the time and effort it takes to properly file paperwork when a parent, coach or player is dismissed?  Could that be one of the reasons we don't see it more often?

Thanks again for being a referee.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

Frank said:


> So just another weekend.......


Unfortunately not.  For some reason it seemed much worse maybe due to the heat on Saturday, school starting, etc.....  Usually the sidelines are very well behaved at these higher level tournaments and games.  And, some of the teams that the sidelines were misbehaving are with clubs that I never have sideline problems with, because the club will crackdown on those parents and not allow them at games.  I am not sure what was in the water or red solo cups.


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## Sons of Pitches (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Unfortunately not.  For some reason it seemed much worse maybe due to the heat on Saturday, school starting, etc.....  Usually the sidelines are very well behaved at these higher level tournaments and games.  And, some of the teams that the sidelines were misbehaving are with clubs that I never have sideline problems with, because the club will crackdown on those parents and not allow them at games.  I am not sure what was in the water or red solo cups.


Surely not everyone was Kung Foo Fighting?


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## Striker17 (Sep 6, 2017)

Those girls were fast as lightening


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## charlie murphy (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Unfortunately not.  For some reason it seemed much worse maybe due to the heat on Saturday, school starting, etc.....  Usually the sidelines are very well behaved at these higher level tournaments and games.  And, some of the teams that the sidelines were misbehaving are with clubs that I never have sideline problems with, because the club will crackdown on those parents and not allow them at games.  I am not sure what was in the water or red solo cups.


"red solo cups" and "something in the water". Reminded me :  We were talking about the Beer sales at Silver lakes when we were last out there and wondering " good idea or bad idea" .  We came to the conclusion it is probably  both.  Good luck to the refs during the second game of bracket play, on a hot day, when our team better win to have a chance in this tournament, when the refs are never giving us a call, and the other team is dirty.


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## socalkdg (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


This is one of the reasons I'm not enjoying basketball when my daughter plays.   Everyone is very tight together, and every single call a referee makes some parent needs to comment.   Gets worse as the game goes on.   Feel bad that anyone has to go through this.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


Sounds like we need to implement Respect line, which is required now for for all youth games in England by FA for parents.


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## ballme (Sep 6, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> Sounds like we need to implement Respect line, which is required now for for all youth games in England by FA for parents.
> View attachment 1372


The Respect line seems to be a good idea - according to this it resulted in a decline in verbal and physical bs toward refs:  http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/childrens-football-clubs-and-coaches-get-the-parents-they-deserve-a6900441.html

Daughter is in her 1st yr of club soccer and already seen some parental behavior that's worse than what I've seen at son's basketball games


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## baldref (Sep 6, 2017)

texanincali said:


> This is where we differ - and I don't think we can start cleaning up the game until it is done in the younger age groups.  Referees are not there to play counselor, they are not there to dictate the pace of the game and they are not there to teach kids the rules.  They are there to apply the rules during the match, plain and simple.
> 
> A caution is not a tool, it is something given to a player that clearly violates the laws of the game for reasons clearly written in the laws of the game.  As a matter of fact, a player on a caution is often times substituted at higher levels when the manager thinks that player is at risk of being sent off, thus putting the team at a disadvantage.  When a caution is used strictly as a tool and not as a "one step closer to getting sent off", there is no point in giving it - especially if a referee takes into account that a player is already on a yellow when the next major offense takes place.
> 
> ...


once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations. 

i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Sep 6, 2017)

Lambchop said:


> Twelve year old girls come in a lot of sizes, one can  be turning 13 on Jan. 2 in 2018 the other can be turning 12 on Dec. 28th. 2017. One can weigh 160 pounds the other 90, if the ref is at the other end of the field someone could be seriously hurt if it is a serious physical fight.  If the ref isn't close or the coach, then a responsible adult should stop it.


160? That's a tall girl


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

baldref said:


> once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations.
> 
> i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.


A-hole!!!!  I was drinking coffee and laughed so hard at the ""puppies and rainbows" the coffee came out my nose.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

Deadpoolscores! said:


> 160? That's a tall girl


Maybe she is short and really loves Twinkies.


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## Deadpoolscores! (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Maybe she is short and really loves Twinkies.


Must be the Senior Chief's daughter if you want to take it there  J/K


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## texanincali (Sep 6, 2017)

baldref said:


> once again, i disagree with much of what you think you know. it's a lot of armchair quarter back talk, and wishful thinking, and puppies and rainbows. but, as you say, i'm not changing your opinion, and you're not changing what i know from many years of experience, some of which was learned from lots of things i have done wrong over the years. i know how to do the job and what is expected from me, not by parents or coaches, but from people who have instructed me on how to handle situations, and like i said, from many years of experiencing these situations.
> 
> i referee the game for the players. the players, to some degree, dictate how the game gets called. i really don't care what their parents want or their coaches want, i care what they want.


No problem - you have every right to disagree.

Keep doing what you are doing - wish we had more referees with the conviction you have.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> That can be the problem with the written word sometimes.  I evidently interpreted the meaning differently than how you intended.  It may partially be because I had my fill of seeing referee's being treated poorly and parents behaving like children this past weekend.  From the Surf dad that saw the need to run behind the female AR to make sure she got the offside call correct.  The AR actually had to take her attention off the game and tell him to stop.  To the Surf dad who called the CR "f@#king piece of shit" then when the AR told him that language was inappropriate  the dad told her (AR) she was "a piece of shit."  It was heard by most of the players.  The Legends parents that thought it was okay to tell the refs, including ones that had nothing to do with the game, that they sucked and flip them off.  The Surf parents that thought it was okay to make derogatory comments to the other team's players.  I should not have had to tell adults not to make derogatory comments to kids.  The NorCal team parents that told the parents of the opposing team to "shut the f$&k up" when they were cheering after what would end up being the winning goal.  I saw a lot of bad behavior toward the refs and players.


Clearly, this behavior all occurred because the referee could not control the coaches and players. Poor rferring leads to such parent conduct.


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## Surfref (Sep 6, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Clearly, this behavior all occurred because the referee could not control the coaches and players. Poor rferring leads to such parent conduct.


I get the sarcasm, but most parents believe your statement.  I saw these poor spectator behaviors at games refereed by very good National and State referees.  One game had a National in the center and States as AR's.  One crew I was on we had all State referee's and the parents evidently thought it was our first time on the field despite the CR doing a great job.  The actual games had no problems on the field and the players and coaches were not complaining.  The only people complaining were about 25 percent of the clueless parents.


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## baldref (Sep 6, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I get the sarcasm, but most parents believe your statement.  I saw these poor spectator behaviors at games refereed by very good National and State referees.  One game had a National in the center and States as AR's.  One crew I was on we had all State referee's and the parents evidently thought it was our first time on the field despite the CR doing a great job.  The actual games had no problems on the field and the players and coaches were not complaining.  The only people complaining were about 25 percent of the clueless parents.


It amazes me often, that these players are playing at an extremely high level, and some parents really have no clue what it is they're watching. I've seen it at surf cup, blues cup, ecnl championships, DA...... it really is incredibly surprising. You would think, that patents might actually try to understand what their kids are doing.


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## socalkdg (Sep 7, 2017)

@baldref and @Surfref 

While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring?   How much physical play do you allow away from the ball?   It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are?  Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?

Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done?  Let them fight, tell them to stop?  get in between them?   Would either have received yellow or red cards?


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## baldref (Sep 7, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> @baldref and @Surfref
> 
> While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring?   How much physical play do you allow away from the ball?   It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are?  Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?
> 
> Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done?  Let them fight, tell them to stop?  get in between them?   Would either have received yellow or red cards?


not much if any physical contact is allowed off the ball. especially if it's aggressive as you describe. but the center referee would be watching play and the ball for the most part, so yes, an Ar should alert him to any shenanigans he doesn't see. 
as i've said a bunch of times in this thread, the referee can't stop players, or prevent players from fighting if that's what they're planning on doing. can we tighten up calls if it seems the temperature is rising? sure. does that work if a player is hell bent to smack someone? no. 

players that strike another player and are caught by center or AR will be sent off. 

if and when there is a full on fight, i'm not touching the players. i've learned from previous instances that even if i can stop it, bad things can happen. i'll be on the whistle, i'll be yelling at them, i might be trying to put my body in between any players approaching. it is a difficult thing to say exactly what i would do because these situations, although rare, are all different.

unfortunately, i was on the field for a mass confrontation recently. it wasn't little girls. it is difficult to stick to all the training and the things you're taught to do, because it happens so very seldom and when it does, especially out of the blue like this one, you can be caught off guard.


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## Carpediem (Sep 7, 2017)

Somebody above referenced "Self defense".  What is the protocol there?  Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ?  Without getting penalized by the league.  
Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue.  I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.


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## baldref (Sep 7, 2017)

Carpediem said:


> Somebody above referenced "Self defense".  What is the protocol there?  Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ?  Without getting penalized by the league.
> Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue.  I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.


No. Retaliation will be penalized also


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## coachrefparent (Sep 7, 2017)

Carpediem said:


> Somebody above referenced "Self defense".  What is the protocol there?  Federally everybody has the right to defend themselves so if there is a case , and we have all seen it, where a player does throw a cheap shot, elbow or strike, and the ref is clearly not in that area to protect the opposing player (technically then a victim)...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves ?  Without getting penalized by the league.
> Curious if this has ever occured or been an issue.  I'm a big fan of the underdog and love to see bullies get their own when they pick on the wrong person.


Not sure where you are going here. You  ask if a player can defend themselves, then you suggest that the player "gets their own" from the other player with no penalty .  Referees do not apply Federal law, and it's wholly inapplicable here (as is State law, etc.) 

There is no provision for self defense in the LOTG, nor any stand your ground rule. If I felt a player was defending themselves after retreating, there would be no foul. If your definition of self defense is the reciving player getting  a cheap shot back, or any other such retaliation, its a foul and likely send off. Pretty simple.


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## Surfref (Sep 7, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> @baldref and @Surfref
> 
> While I understand you didn't see the exact situation that occurred, do you think you would have kept the altercation from occurring?   How much physical play do you allow away from the ball?   It would seem that pushing, shoving, kicking and elbows shouldn't happen when the ball is on the other side of the field from where these players are?  Should an AR alert you to what is going on since your back may be to these players?
> 
> Lastly, if the fight did start between two players, what would you have done?  Let them fight, tell them to stop?  get in between them?   Would either have received yellow or red cards?


Unless there is a set play (free kick, corner kick, goal kick, throw-in) there is really no reason for physical play off the ball.  Any shenanigans off the ball and far away from active play will usually be caught by the AR.  A good AR will use their voice to defuse those types of situations.  Anything more serious off the ball such as Kicking, shoving (actually a pushing foul or possibly striking foul), elbowing with force (striking foul) should all be dealt with either right away or at the next stoppage.  A good AR will assess the severity of the situation, signal the CR, discuss the incident and allow the CR to address it.  The referee crew also must trust each other.  Baldref (CR) and I (AR) were working an older girls game several years ago. After the ball was played up field a larger defender grabbed the other teams forward with both hands a forcefully threw her to the ground.  I signaled Baldy, he stopped the game, I told him what happened, and he ejected the defender.

If two girls got into a fight, I would sprint to the area.  I would blow the whistle as loud as possible within a couple yards of the players and in a stern authoritative voice tell them to stop.  The loud shrill whistle does a great job of getting everyone's attention and getting them refocused.  If their teammates are pulling them off each other, than I will step between them once they are several yards alert.  I would never try to step between them if they are close together.  That is a good way for me to get punched.  After they are separated and a good distance apart I will issue the initial two red cards if it was obvious both players were fighting (throwing punches, slapping, grabbing, kicking, etc.).  I will always consult with my AR's to see if they saw something I did not.  I have had fights between two players where I only give one red card and the other player a Yellow or nothing.  I had a girls fight a few years ago where it was actually videotaped that one player was clearly the aggressor and the other player was just trying to defend herself.  My AR verified what I thought I had seen.

I have also had fight just happen in very calm games.  I had an older girl sucker punch a girl from the other team 10 minutes into the game right in front of me and right next to the benches.  The coaches quickly grabbed their player and pulled them apart.  It turned out the one that threw the sucker punch had an suffered ankle injury that sidelined her for six months the last time the two teams played 18 months prior.  The girl on the receiving end was the one that slid into the player and caused the ankle injury.  One red card for the girl that threw the punch and the other continued to play.  Girls never forget!


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## Eagle33 (Sep 7, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Girls never forget!


150% true statement


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## Surfref (Sep 7, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> 150% true statement


I used to be skeptical when girls coaches told me about problems from past games or players that "didn't like each other."  Some coaches will say things to try and influence the referee, so I don't always believe what they tell me unless I know them.  Now I take those things serious and keep a closer eye on any specific player mentioned.  I will also verify with the other coach.  Most coaches will be honest and give me their side of the story.  In the past I have even been told by both coaches that the two teams do not like each other.  I address this with the players when I check them in and make sure they know I will not put up with any shenanigans.  That usually works to defuse any thought of retribution.  I recently had two coaches tell me their teams hated each other (coaches got along fine) so I addressed it with the players at check-in.  It was one of the cleanest games I have worked in a couple years.  I think boys games are much easier to referee because they usually don't hold grudges for years or decades like girls.


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## Lambchop (Sep 7, 2017)

Deadpoolscores! said:


> 160? That's a tall girl


In the game I saw one defender was at least 5'10 and the other almost as tall, maybe 5'9, very big girls for the age group.  And yes, the taller of the two was a solid, muscular 150-160!  The strikers that went up against these two were maybe 5' and 5'3 and much smaller frames.


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## socalkdg (Sep 7, 2017)

@baldref and @Surfref 

Thanks to both of you for the lengthy answers.   Really sounds like you both have great control of your games.   

Based on everything you both said I believe the problem in our game was the AR on our side, who never let the CR know what was going on, let it continue, let the fight start on their side of the field, and didn't do anything once it started.  Hopefully it will be a learning moment for them and games in the future will see an improvement on their part with regards to this.


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## baldref (Sep 7, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> @baldref and @Surfref
> 
> Thanks to both of you for the lengthy answers.   Really sounds like you both have great control of your games.
> 
> Based on everything you both said I believe the problem in our game was the AR on our side, who never let the CR know what was going on, let it continue, let the fight start on their side of the field, and didn't do anything once it started.  Hopefully it will be a learning moment for them and games in the future will see an improvement on their part with regards to this.


that's how we learn. experiencing and making errors. however, fact is, even if he did make mistakes and mishandled his duties, the AR didn't cause the girls to brawl, and the responsibility is squarely on them for choosing to go that direction.


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## genesis (Sep 9, 2017)

There are too many officials in here.


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## zebrafish (Sep 9, 2017)

This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.

IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this. 

I think it is also interesting that the refs won't physically engage the players. I'm not sure how I feel about this, honestly. I see the point of not touching kids, because of all the issues that can come up.

Having done some refereeing in the AYSO, I would probably make an attempt to physically separate 2 actively fighting players. If one kid is pummeling another kid, do you just stand there watching (or blowing your whistle?!). I think there must be a line where you intervene for the safety of players. But probably 99% of fights end quickly without you having to jump in there.

If you look at NFL, NBA games-- those refs will get between players and touch fighting players. Now, these are adults, so maybe that is a difference. But I don't think I could just watch 2 kids fighting without doing something beyond blowing a whistle.


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## baldref (Sep 9, 2017)

zebrafish said:


> This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.
> 
> IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this.
> 
> ...



Years ago, I was doing a lower level U15 boys game. the worst games for testosterone driven crap. One young man took exception to a challenge, a fai8r challenge, and started going after the challenger. I was, as I often am, right on top of it. I was within arms distance of the player, who was going to go smack the other player upside the head. I knew it. I could tell. I gra1bbed him by the shoulder. Not violently, not forcefully, just enough to stop him from getting to the other player. 

After the game......... Mom comes after me. You touched my boy! Goes to my association. Goes to Cal South. I acted in a way that protected both players, but... I touched the boy. I was not disciplined, but i was told in no uncertain terms:

DO NOT TOUCH PLAYERS 


So, other than a friendly touch on the shoulder in conversation, or a tap on the back when a sub is going into a game, I don't touch players. It's just the way it is.


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## Surfref (Sep 9, 2017)

zebrafish said:


> This is interesting thread from the point of the refs in here.
> 
> IMHO, I think the main responsibility of the ref is to keep the players safe. Everything else comes after this.
> 
> ...


As a referee, never ever touch a youth player except to shake their hand after the game.  NFL, NBA, NHL are adult games and completely different


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## socalkdg (Sep 10, 2017)

So Ref can't touch the players,  parents can't come on the field.   Does this mean the coaches have to separate the girls if they are smacking each other upside the head?


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## coachrefparent (Sep 10, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> So Ref can't touch the players,  parents can't come on the field.   Does this mean the coaches have to separate the girls if they are smacking each other upside the head?


If they do not separate, yes, that's what should happen.


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## Surfref (Sep 11, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> So Ref can't touch the players,  parents can't come on the field.   Does this mean the coaches have to separate the girls if they are smacking each other upside the head?


In one of my games on Saturday, G2000, two girls started attempted to slap each other but didn't connect.  Their teammates had them pulled apart immediately.  The teammates knew that had the altercation continued that the players would be ejected.  CR cautioned (yellow card) and talked to both girls.  Game resumed with no further problems.

Teammates are usually closer than coaches and the majority of the time will pull their player away from an altercation.


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## twoclubpapa (Sep 11, 2017)

Surfref said:


> Teammates are usually closer than coaches and the majority of the time will pull their player away from an altercation.


I'm fortunate in that I've only had a handful of fights in my 39 years and each time it was teammates that intervened with their player to break things up before things got too complicated.


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## genesis (Sep 11, 2017)

Sheep...baaahhhh. Not sure how to spell sheep noise.


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