# Responsibility, Ego, and a Desire to Win at U14 - My new favorite ECNL coach - I think



## MidwestMom (Oct 11, 2022)

Long-time reader, first-time poster. 
Interested in anyone's take on what this coach is saying when he talks about battling his own ego and desire to win, yet admitting that these traits (typically frowned upon when talking about a youth coach) might be extremely beneficial to the girls he coaches. 

The ECNL Experience vlog - U14G

Is he speaking for all competitive youth coaches, or are there coaches out there who are 100% truly in it for the players??
He seems to know his stuff and seems to know how to teach it. Looking at last year's ECNL standings his team seemed to have overachieved a bit with a playoff run. Wondering if my daughter would be lucky to have a coach like this, or a coach like this would hurt her long term? 
I'm not from the west coast and fully understand that the competitive environment in Socal is at another level to what we see here in the midwest. Maybe egotistical coaches who desire to win at the younger age groups are a dime a dozen in your area, but that's kinda why I'm posting here. Will try the TX forums as well.


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## Carlsbad7 (Oct 11, 2022)

Seems pretty normal. I like that he's engaged + doing everything possible to win. I also like that he's taking responsibility for not winning.

I know of several coaches that punch in and out + don't care if the team wins or loses.


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## lafalafa (Oct 11, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Seems pretty normal. I like that he's engaged + doing everything possible to win. I also like that he's taking responsibility for not winning.
> 
> I know of several coaches that punch in and out + don't care if the team wins or loses.


Like his transparency & open communication which is good to see in a coach.

For the OP best way really is have your player see games live and talk to the coaches and players in some capacity if possible.   Some are calm cool and collective normally but can get a bit heated during comps.

Kids know pretty quickly if they feel comfortable with a coach and team they may want to play for or not?  almost like a six sense.  I would listen to my player first and check out the other stuff after.


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## MidwestMom (Oct 12, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Seems pretty normal. I like that he's engaged + doing everything possible to win. I also like that he's taking responsibility for not winning.
> 
> I know of several coaches that punch in and out + don't care if the team wins or loses.


I also appreciate that he's owning the losses as well.


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## MidwestMom (Oct 12, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Like his transparency & open communication which is good to see in a coach.
> 
> For the OP best way really is have your player see games live and talk to the coaches and players in some capacity if possible.   Some are calm cool and collective normally but can get a bit heated during comps.
> 
> Kids know pretty quickly if they feel comfortable with a coach and team they may want to play for or not?  almost like a six sense.  I would listen to my player first and check out the other stuff after.


That's good advice. We don't live in his state, so I didn't mean for my post to come across as we're evaluating this coach/team for tryouts. I was more wondering if this is the type of coach we'd want to have. Slam dunk for sure over the coaches who just punch in and out, as Carlsbad7 mentioned.


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## lafalafa (Oct 12, 2022)

MidwestMom said:


> That's good advice. We don't live in his state, so I didn't mean for my post to come across as we're evaluating this coach/team for tryouts. I was more wondering if this is the type of coach we'd want to have. Slam dunk for sure over the coaches who just punch in and out, as Carlsbad7 mentioned.


Yeah the good ones are what we call players 1st coaches, players first every think else 2nd.

The ones that can dedicate themselves to one club team at a time vs trying to manage 3x simultaneously in our experience are the best.   Both my players where fortunate to have coaches like that for a majority of the years and it makes a big difference. 

Some also do High school and/or College coaching which tends to be more compatible vs multiple club teams.    The scrambling around at tournaments, games, training with distances we cover in Socal makes multiple team coaching a big challenge.

This video coach is one that's taking about club management + coaching with his experience and with multiple teams so that's one area to explore more.  To  know who would be his assistant coach and others that maybe filling in or training your player. The priority question is always a delicated one but worth finding out.


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## MidwestMom (Oct 13, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Yeah the good ones are what we call players 1st coaches, players first every think else 2nd.


This gets to the crux of my initial post. We all want to think that our coaches have players first mentality. But this coach in MN is admitting to being driven in part by selfish or personal desires to win (not driven primarily by player development), and battling with those egotistical thoughts. Basically saying that his desire to win at U14 can also be looked at as good for the girls he coaches -- he works very hard to win by focus/planning sessions/scouting opponents/etc and this translates into benefiting his players' development.


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## Grace T. (Oct 13, 2022)

MidwestMom said:


> This gets to the crux of my initial post. We all want to think that our coaches have players first mentality. But this coach in MN is admitting to being driven in part by selfish or personal desires to win (not driven primarily by player development), and battling with those egotistical thoughts. Basically saying that his desire to win at U14 can also be looked at as good for the girls he coaches -- he works very hard to win by focus/planning sessions/scouting opponents/etc and this translates into benefiting his players' development.


Winning v. development is a balancing act and so that's why it's so hard for coaches to get it right.  Even the ones that recognize that sometimes miss the mark because it's such a hard balance.  Winning at all costs (at least until you get to the highest and oldest levels) is bad for the players because it causes coaches to take short cuts that hurt player development in the long run: not learning to build it out of the back, focusing on shooting (over the goalkeeper) instead of passing (which only works on the boys side only until the goalkeepers are big enough and experienced enough to cover the goal), having big legged defenders boot the ball of the goalkeeper always punt it, scouting players instead of developing your own, picking the tallest fastest players in elementary that might not remain that way after puberty.  Put pure development is also dangerous because teams that lose all their games quickly start to snipe at each other, you'll lose most of your team if you have to step down a level, and I've seen more than a 1/2 dozen teams already just completely implode.  If you add other externalities, such as coaches being paid bonuses or promoted for victories, promotion/relegation, or coaches being demoted if they don't get that promotion, it can distort things even more.

Someone here recommended the book "Desperate Soccer Moms" by legendary coach Illingworth to me.  It's a fascinating look at youth soccer at the dawn of the pay to play explosion in club soccer.  It has a lot of bad behavior in it from parents and admins.  But what's fascinating is (and the coach does acknowledge in his younger days he was too win obsessed) that it has a lot of really bad behavior from the coaches (including the author) largely centered around win-at-all costs and conflicts of interests.  For example, at one point, to win, the coach (based in San Diego) allows two players from Bakersfield to play with the team (as starters), even though they will NEVER practice with them team.  For another, the coach freely admits he went too far in berating his players for poor performances to the point of being abusive.


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## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Winning v. development is a balancing act and so that's why it's so hard for coaches to get it right.  Even the ones that recognize that sometimes miss the mark because it's such a hard balance.  Winning at all costs (at least until you get to the highest and oldest levels) is bad for the players because it causes coaches to take short cuts that hurt player development in the long run: not learning to build it out of the back, focusing on shooting (over the goalkeeper) instead of passing (which only works on the boys side only until the goalkeepers are big enough and experienced enough to cover the goal), having big legged defenders boot the ball of the goalkeeper always punt it, scouting players instead of developing your own, picking the tallest fastest players in elementary that might not remain that way after puberty.  Put pure development is also dangerous because teams that lose all their games quickly start to snipe at each other, you'll lose most of your team if you have to step down a level, and I've seen more than a 1/2 dozen teams already just completely implode.  If you add other externalities, such as coaches being paid bonuses or promoted for victories, promotion/relegation, or coaches being demoted if they don't get that promotion, it can distort things even more.
> 
> Someone here recommended the book "Desperate Soccer Moms" by legendary coach Illingworth to me.  It's a fascinating look at youth soccer at the dawn of the pay to play explosion in club soccer.  It has a lot of bad behavior in it from parents and admins.  But what's fascinating is (and the coach does acknowledge in his younger days he was too win obsessed) that it has a lot of really bad behavior from the coaches (including the author) largely centered around win-at-all costs and conflicts of interests.  For example, at one point, to win, the coach (based in San Diego) allows two players from Bakersfield to play with the team (as starters), even though they will NEVER practice with them team.  For another, the coach freely admits he went too far in berating his players for poor performances to the point of being abusive.


I will speak about me and my desire to win over development. I want to win and love to compete to win. If I lose, I shake your hand and ask for a rematch. Losing is only learning. "Development" is only a marketing word because not everyone can be a winner or make the A Team and that's why we have flight 1, flight 2 and so on.


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## lafalafa (Oct 13, 2022)

crush said:


> I will speak about me and my desire to win over development. I want to win and love to compete to win. If I lose, I shake your hand and ask for a rematch. Losing is only learning. "Development" is only a marketing word because not everyone can be a winner or make the A Team and that's why we have flight 1, flight 2 and so on.


Yeah that's a normal personal adult prospective

For a u14 player that can be what 12-13 years young lots of learning, growth, experiences, development time ahead.  

The game is a great teacher: W,L,D, Pk's. Does Winning more result in better players or just happier one's at that age?

Our daughter always happy to play,  ask her about the game and would take some time to find the scores. Son is different all about the stats right away, if the competition wasn't good enough could get moody,

There is something about scrapping, struggling, or working your way up let's say from Div 5 to 1 during HS that really brings out the "Dog"  or competitiveness in some players so that can be a great teacher. 

For the OP at that U14 age finding a coach that can teach the player how to get to the next level,use better technique, tactics, positions.

For example let's say the players position is on offense.   A coach who has some specialty experience in that area or another one let's say Defensive that he would be teaching my player is the coach i would seek out.  Getting regular playing & training time at more than one position at those ages can really help long term development.


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## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Yeah that's a normal personal adult prospective
> 
> For a u14 player that can be what 12-13 years young lots of learning, growth, experiences, development time ahead.
> 
> ...


You will find out soon what all this "development" was really about.


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## lafalafa (Oct 13, 2022)

crush said:


> You will find out soon what all this "development" was really about.


College senior and sophomore and they are still developing and learning so yeah adults but different vs u14


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## crush (Oct 13, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> College senior and sophomore and they are still developing and learning so yeah adults but different vs u14


Where did all the soccer "developers" at the forum go? This was never about soccer development and anyone following all this the last 5 years knows what I am talking about. Team is gone and it's all about the individual player and not team work. No one stays on the same team. Players need to learn how to lose and win as a team and learn how to get cut. You were sold development and I get that.


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## lafalafa (Oct 13, 2022)

crush said:


> Where did all the soccer "developers" at the forum go? This was never about soccer development and anyone following all this the last 5 years knows what I am talking about. Team is gone and it's all about the individual player and not team work. No one stays on the same team. Players need to learn how to lose and win as a team and learn how to get cut. You were sold development and I get that.


Nah not sold development that's my own words not referring to what your talking about but I get the drift.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Oct 14, 2022)

I agree that this coach seems to be dedicated to his job, which is admirable.  But I thought it was a bit weird that he was so disappointed that he had to be removed from the players' group chat (even if a parent was added to that chat).


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## Carlsbad7 (Oct 14, 2022)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> I agree that this coach seems to be dedicated to his job, which is admirable.  But I thought it was a bit weird that he was so disappointed that he had to be removed from the players' group chat (even if a parent was added to that chat).


Didn't catch that part + agree very weird.


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## MidwestMom (Oct 16, 2022)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> But I thought it was a bit weird that he was so disappointed that he had to be removed from the players' group chat (even if a parent was added to that chat).


I saw that vlog awhile back, too. I don't find it very off-putting. He speaks of no longer being able to build off-field connections which he attributes some of the team's success to. If I remember correctly he also felt that being included in the team chat was a good way to monitor the pulse of the team which I can also respect. 

Fully understand that in this day and age of technology, social media, chat groups, and the reality of grooming, it makes sense why a club would want minimize potential risk management issues. 

Has this become an issue in the Socal area? Or is it just normal for coaches to not be able to text their players regardless of gender and age?

Personally speaking I wouldn't have an issue with our coach being part of the a team group chat, but that's just me.


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## Carlsbad7 (Oct 17, 2022)

Most clubs use Sportsengine or Teamsnap (or something like it) for managing team interactions.

Both solutions have team chat functionality which involves all parents.

Coaches should not be texting directly with players. Theres been so many examples that show this is one of the primary ways groomer/pedophile coaches get close with the players.


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## crush (Oct 17, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Most clubs use Sportsengine or Teamsnap (or something like it) for managing team interactions.
> 
> Both solutions have team chat functionality which involves all parents.
> 
> Coaches should not be texting directly with players. Theres been so many examples that show this is one of the primary ways groomer/pedophile coaches get close with the players.


Another way a coach grooms a player is tell player never to tell parent what I say, how I say it to your mommy or daddy because your poor little feelings got hurt from the screams that day. If you do, you will not play!


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## rainbow_unicorn (Oct 17, 2022)

MidwestMom said:


> Has this become an issue in the Socal area? Or is it just normal for coaches to not be able to text their players regardless of gender and age?


Feels like every two years or so there's a new report of a youth soccer coach committing a sexual offense here.  I believe SafeSport guidelines around coach communication with players is somewhat new in the past few years so could be something where both coaches and parents are still learning what the new norm is.


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## Carlsbad7 (Oct 17, 2022)

It's not that hard to understand.

Do teachers at school have their students cell numbers + text them at home? Are the teachers included on the kids text/chat groups? No they're not is the answer. 

Coaches are that same as Teachers + should not be texting players directly or involved in player text/chat group interactions.


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## MidwestMom (Oct 17, 2022)

Carlsbad7 said:


> Do teachers at school have their students cell numbers + text them at home? Are the teachers included on the kids text/chat groups? No they're not is the answer.


This is a good point and a good way to think about it. 

I've seen the SafeSport stuff and agree that it might just be a learning period for people.


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