# Poaching Players (Team Manager Ethics)



## Daijobdes (Apr 6, 2020)

I ran into this before the break… An example of purging or poaching caused by a Team Manager.

Does a Team Manager (Flight 1) have a ethical responsibility about giving out pertinent information to the entire team equally? 

Background: Team Manager knew a group of players was “trying out” and were leaving the team.  The other half of the team believed the team was staying together based on “emails and talks”  the Team Manager was sending. They (other half) did not know or go to the try outs.

Is this how poaching or purging players works?  The half of the team that tried out formed a new team and the others were left out of the Jan 2020 try outs and now with COVID-19 they are in Limbo for flight 1 clubs.


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## dad4 (Apr 6, 2020)

Big difference between “knew” about the tryouts and “caused” the tryouts.  No clear which version this was.

I take it the manager was in the going to tryouts faction?

Same thing happened to the CA Thorns 09 team up by us.  In that case, the manager was the recruiter.  Top half of the team left for a big name coach.   A lot of bad blood.   Both teams dropped a division and are fighting their way back up.  (up here that means they no longer played up a year.). 

Unpleasant and I do not recommend it.  Despite all that, it worked out.  The next year, everyone still got to play and have fun.  No worse than dropping a division because you get cut.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Apr 6, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I ran into this before the break… An example of purging or poaching caused by a Team Manager.
> 
> Does a Team Manager (Flight 1) have a ethical responsibility about giving out pertinent information to the entire team equally?
> 
> ...


Absolutely obligated to provide the same information to everyone on the team.  The clubs have used tryouts as a weapon and already have enough power.  Conspiring behind the scenes, with other families, discussing the option to leave, is the only power players have anymore. And since we're the paying customers... so be it.  You're sticking out your neck in doing so, already, because you can't keep a secret in comp soccer.  You can't stop recruiting.  It sounds like, in SoCal, the clubs recruit players away.  In NorCal, I think the parents are the worst offenders.  Always in search of the better mousetrap.  More often than not, I've seen that backfire.

That said, a team manager should not go sounding the alarms to all families that some are leaving.  That's probably the morally correct thing to do... but unethical as team manager.  Besides, I'm guessing others had a pretty good idea.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 6, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I ran into this before the break… An example of purging or poaching caused by a Team Manager.
> 
> Does a Team Manager (Flight 1) have a ethical responsibility about giving out pertinent information to the entire team equally?
> 
> ...


Advice for you.  All for free.  Be patient.  The coach usually runs all his tricks (the bad ones) through TM.  If that is happening, you don;t want to be in that mess.  Top 1 flight in Socal=Top goat imho.  Don;t join a new team.  Wait until all the dust and virus settles.  My #1 mistake was trying to get a head of all you.  Wait until the end of the next cut off day is for the new season.  I waited until two days before cut off last year.  Best decision ever. My earliest sign up for a club soccer season was Dec 3rd 2015.  I signed 8 months before new season started.  What a fool I was.


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## futboldad1 (Apr 6, 2020)

ethically yes the manager should be impartial and handing out info to all.....some managers are unsung heroes and do lots of work with no drama....kinda like some coaches.........but some managers are gossips and stirring is the only work they do........kinda like some coaches


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## Ellejustus (Apr 6, 2020)

My buddy told me to watch out for the TM/board member dude.  If you didn't get invited to the poker party, you know where you stand for next season he would tell me.  I think it's good info and good way to get out of that mess.  Too many (not all and we love our TMs because they work their asses off) of them get involved in decisions that are not good. The TMs that spreads gossip are actually dangerous and spread half truths around the team that cause cancer. Horrible for a team for 10 months.


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## futboldad1 (Apr 6, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Too many (not all and we love our TMs because they work their asses off) of them get involved in decisions that are not good. The TMs that spreads gossip are actually dangerous and spread half truths around the team that cause cancer. Horrible for a team for 10 months.


this is my experiences too........


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## Eagle33 (Apr 6, 2020)

all it takes is one "cancer" parent to mess it up for a team, it doesn't have to be a TM


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## Ellejustus (Apr 6, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> all it takes is one "cancer" parent to mess it up for a team, it doesn't have to be a TM


Every team has a little cancer.  However, TM cancer is not curable imo unless you cut it out and that can;t happen because the cancer originated from the head (Doc) and heart (coach).  That is called stage 4 club cancer.


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## espola (Apr 6, 2020)

Some parents may see it as poaching, and others as hooking onto a better opportunity.


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## Daijobdes (Apr 6, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Every team has a little cancer.  However, TM cancer is not curable imo unless you cut it out and that can;t happen because the cancer originated from the head (Doc) and heart (coach).  That is called stage 4 club cancer.


I agree... the TM was very supportive throughout the year.  He was very open until he was not...

Everything changed, the last week of January. Half the team didn’t show up for a game. He was telling everyone to go to the game because he ran the Shutterfly. Team had to forfeit . Parents called and he said  “by the way the team is over,  good luck.”   Coach was shocked and angered…  Half the parents knew what was going on the other half didn’t. 

Funny the TM said this was a ‘meritocracy”…  He always preaching it…  It was a meritocracy until tryouts…if you knew there were tryouts…lol

Is the lesson?… its only about my kid not yours.


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## Emma (Apr 6, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I agree... the TM was very supportive throughout the year.  He was very open until he was not...
> 
> Everything changed, the last week of January. Half the team didn’t show up for a game. He was telling everyone to go to the game because he ran the Shutterfly. Team had to forfeit . Parents called and he said  “by the way the team is over,  good luck.”   Coach was shocked and angered…  Half the parents knew what was going on the other half didn’t.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear this.  Out of curiosity, how did half of the team not know about the tryouts?  Was this some sort of secret tryout? Curious as to the logistics of how the TM went about it.


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## timbuck (Apr 6, 2020)

Happens all too often.
Sometimes a coach will be planning to leave.  But he'll only tell the parents that he wants to take along with him.  "Don't say anything because if I finish out the season, I'll get my final check. But for the new team, I'll make sure you get a discount if you keep it a secret.  I've only told 5 other parents. They are coming with me. "


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## foreveryoung (Apr 6, 2020)

I've said this before and I'll say it again, hardest part of youth sports?  Other parents.


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## timbuck (Apr 6, 2020)

I'll also say that many coaches put too much responsibility and trust on to team managers.
Coaches that only communicate with parents via team managers are putting themselves at risk of a parent mutiny.
Coaches that make team managers act like the ATM machine, the counselor, the scheduler and the bus driver are putting their teams at risk.


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## Daijobdes (Apr 6, 2020)

Emma said:


> Sorry to hear this.  Out of curiosity, how did half of the team not know about the tryouts?  Was this some sort of secret tryout? Curious as to the logistics of how the TM went about it.


I really don't know... The first I heard about it was when we forfeited the game because we only had half the team.  I believe it was a "cabal" all along... if you were in... you were in...  not matter your "kids" skill level.

My view...A strong DOC and Coach would have seen the waring signs and put a stop to it... We had a week organization... Parents would step out of line and not get corrected.  Looking back on it …. the TM did not enforce standards he just wanted his kid up front.  The Coach and DOC need to ensure parents don't over step their bounds and ruin the team.  I have more respect for coaches and DOC because of this.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 6, 2020)

Emma said:


> Sorry to hear this.  Out of curiosity, how did half of the team not know about the tryouts?  Was this some sort of secret tryout? Curious as to the logistics of how the TM went about it.


Emma, you know if you ask questions like that your looking for gossip morsels on the soccer forum.  Watch out @Daijobdes.  I started soft here in July, asking a few questions like this one and now I'm hated by a few.  TM in club soccer need to go away and be called something else.  My wife was "TM" for high school team.  However, most of the parents were little "tms" helping my wife be the TM.  Dads too   It's how one leads  the troops.  Some lead with Power ((Assholes who think it's their way or the highway)) and some lead with Authority ((doing the dirty work too)).  My wife delegated duties to other little tms.  We all worked together to make this years soccer team the best ever parent wise.  We all stepped up for the good of the team.  Too many TMs act like they know all the D1 coaches too and all that.  I hate that sh*t!!!.  "Buzz off, we can handle this ourselves, thank you btw". Let them come to my dd if they like what they see. Soccer goats should have private planes coming to pick up the goat, not goat emailing 10 coaches and hoping her club soccer coach says one of them might be interested.  That is not goat recruiting at all.


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## Emma (Apr 6, 2020)

I


Ellejustus said:


> Emma, you know if you ask questions like that your looking for gossip morsels on the soccer forum.  Watch out @Daijobdes.  I started soft here in July, asking a few questions like this one and now I'm hated by a few.  TM in club soccer need to go away and be called something else.  My wife was "TM" for high school team.  However, most of the parents were little "tms" helping my wife be the TM.  Dads too   It's how one leads  the troops.  Some lead with Power ((Assholes who think it's their way or the highway)) and some lead with Authority ((doing the dirty work too)).  My wife delegated duties to other little tms.  We all worked together to make this years soccer team the best ever parent wise.  We all stepped up for the good of the team.  Too many TMs act like they know all the D1 coaches too and all that.  I hate that sh*t!!!.  "Buzz off, we can handle this ourselves, thank you btw". Let them come to my dd if they like what they see. Soccer goats should have private planes coming to pick up the goat, not goat emailing 10 coaches and hoping her club soccer coach says one of them might be interested.  That is not goat recruiting at all.


We've had 7 team managers bt our 2 children and 5 were AWESOME - thank you!  1 was manipulative and 1 was not meant to manage anything.  I was a TM one year bc no one else wanted to do it.  It's a lot of work and I'm very thankful for TMs.  I've seen many scenarios where things change as coaches move around or when a clique of kids move together to a different team.  I've never heard of a secret tryout and was curious.  I'm not looking for names of people or club, just how something like that would workout logistically.  Who knows - I might implement my own secret tryout one day if it sounds exciting enough.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 6, 2020)

Emma said:


> I
> 
> We've had 7 team managers bt our 2 children and 5 were AWESOME - thank you!  1 was manipulative and 1 was not meant to manage anything.  I was a TM one year bc no one else wanted to do it.  It's a lot of work and I'm very thankful for TMs.  I've seen many scenarios where things change as coaches move around or when a clique of kids move together to a different team.  I've never heard of a secret tryout and was curious.  I'm not looking for names of people or club, just how something like that would workout logistically.  Who knows - I might implement my own secret tryout one day if it sounds exciting enough.


Thank you for serving BTW.  That has to be the hardest "job" in club soccer.  One of my old friends ((probably hates me now)) did a hell of a job. I think she got $100 off dues for 20 hours a week and all the parents on top of that.  Most TMs have been great btw.  However, we have nothing else to do so why not talk about all the hacks who were TMs in club for all the wrong reasons.  I know of one who had a hubby who was pissed his goat was not CM.  So since his wife had all the emails, "they" decided to have a an "invite only team meeting" to start a soft coup with half the team.  Well, it got out because these kinds of meetings get out quickly.  Team split up right before playoffs all because daddy wanted CM for his Sally.  No joke Emma


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## GT45 (Apr 6, 2020)

I think a TM has an obligation to let the coach know what is going on. If they choose to be part of the leadership, they need to be loyal to it. Kind of like an assistant coach.


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## EOTL (Apr 6, 2020)

I have never seen “rat out other parents” in a team manager job description. You are not complaining about a lack of ethics.  You are complaining that you are not getting what you want and that you cannot control other people. Why do you even want to be around people who don’t want to be around you?


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## GT45 (Apr 6, 2020)

I am not complaining at all. It is my opinion that when you take on a managerial role you chose to take a leadership position. And, I think you have a responsibility to the club. In the example of the team having to forfeit a game because of this situation, that is terrible. The manager could have prevented that. In some situations the club could be fined for that. Do not choose to "Manage" if you do not want that responsibility. If players want to leave, then leave. But, it takes a lack of ethics to coordinate an effort to dismantle a team mid-season to fulfill your self interest.

I find your ethic demonstrated in your use of the phrase 'rat out'. Is protecting the club a bad thing?


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## EOTL (Apr 6, 2020)

GT45 said:


> I am not complaining at all. It is my opinion that when you take on a managerial role you chose to take a leadership position. And, I think you have a responsibility to the club. In the example of the team having to forfeit a game because of this situation, that is terrible. The manager could have prevented that. In some situations the club could be fined for that. Do not choose to "Manage" if you do not want that responsibility. If players want to leave, then leave. But, it takes a lack of ethics to coordinate an effort to dismantle a team mid-season to fulfill your self interest.
> 
> I find your ethic demonstrated in your use of the phrase 'rat out'. Is protecting the club a bad thing?


You said he told them to go to the game, which isn’t exactly contributing to dismantling a team. If a club pays you nothing, you owe them nothing. 

My “ethic” is that you can only control yourself and should do what is best for yourself. You should not expect anyone to do what is best for you, especially if it is something they don’t want to do. People use the word “poach” as a substitute for their feelings are hurt that they can’t control someone and make them do what you want. 

My “ethic” also involves self-reflection. So, I ask you again, why do you want to be around people who don’t want to be around you?


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## Emma (Apr 6, 2020)

GT45 said:


> I am not complaining at all. It is my opinion that when you take on a managerial role you chose to take a leadership position. And, I think you have a responsibility to the club. In the example of the team having to forfeit a game because of this situation, that is terrible. The manager could have prevented that. In some situations the club could be fined for that. Do not choose to "Manage" if you do not want that responsibility. If players want to leave, then leave. But, it takes a lack of ethics to coordinate an effort to dismantle a team mid-season to fulfill your self interest.
> 
> I find your ethic demonstrated in your use of the phrase 'rat out'. Is protecting the club a bad thing?


Interesting take.  Every awesome team manager I've seen takes on the role of managing the team but they are NOT present to ensure that players remain with the club or team.  That's something the coach and club is responsible for.  Team Managers also don't make decisions as to whether players get cut from teams.  The only time I've seen a TM affect a coaching decision or retention/cut decision is when the TM was manipulative.  The Coach and the Club's actions dictate whether players/parents remain with the team and club.  Team managers help with tourney fee collections, travel and jerseys.  They are not employees of the Club and should not be expected to act as an employee of the Club.  

If you have a TM that sides with the Club and becomes the eyes and ears for the club, the parents will not be able to trust TMs.  The club would be putting the TM in a very tough position with other parents on the team.  

I don't see an ethical issue with the TM leaving and working to attract other players on the team to leave with the TM.  If the Club and Coach are doing their job to provide the service the players and parents need, then the TM won't leave.  Don't blame the TM for others leaving, we are all adults and each of those parents are responsible for their own choices.  We've seen this happen, we stayed, but we saw their reason for leaving.  It just wasn't enough for us to leave.

If you look back at what happened throughout the year and paid attention to the problems that went unresolved, you'll see why people left.  There are always legitimate reasons.  People don't leave a comfortable situation unless there are problems.


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## jpeter (Apr 6, 2020)

90% of time this has to do with expectations not meeting reality.  Training, league, tournaments didn't go as planned so let's go shopping around.

Expectations could be the team should be performing better, certain players not get stats, equal playing time, positions or whatever it is that's the real root of the discontent.

The I in team well that's another topic, most managers have some sort of built-in conflict of interest it's how they deal with that or not often makes the difference for the good ones.

We've been fortunate throughout the years with some great managers but after a certain level & age  parents are not really involved anymore or limited  as the organization has professional or outside managers to deal with all the logistics.

One of the keys is really communication! teach your kids early to communicate with the coach, managers, other players for themselves to discuss things at anytime.


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## timbuck (Apr 6, 2020)

How much of this goes back to “we tried out.  We accepted.  And then a few weeks later we had a new coach”.


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## blam (Apr 6, 2020)

Zlatan left la galaxy and moved to Milan. 

If they fulfilled their commitment all are free to leave.

If team has enough players, they could still force their way out or threaten not to play and become the Pogba of the team. 

I think any team should expect the top few players in a team to leave for a higher level team. The bottom few will drop out too either for lack of interest or in search of more playing time.


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## Dirtnap (Apr 7, 2020)

my viewpoint is the first time the club and or the coach is not honest or transparent with the parents or TM the cancer begins. remember the TM is also a parent of a player in most cases and what side do you think they will take. I have seen this happen all too many times. no better recruiter than a TM or parent who feels they have been wronged.


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## Daijobdes (Apr 7, 2020)

I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks

The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?

From my point of view “the kids” are learning that all players are expendable.  Players on “your team” are just steppingstones to getting to the next level.  Before this issue arose, I believed my kid could have had lifelong friendships on the team… After this, I do not believe that is the case.

The parents in “Soccer Clubs” claim they are doing it for the kids, but their actions show a different side.  These duplicitous parents, like our former TM, say “let the kids play” until they see an advantage. The “meritocracy,” they preach goes out the window. IT’S THE KIDS MERIT NOT THE PARENTS MERIT.

Lesson learned… let your kid play and develop friendships but remind them that some do not have their best interests in mind.
Go to a strong club… if your club is weak… this will happen.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


You got it.  I felt the same way for the first few years... but at the end of the day, nobody cares about you or your kid.  Most are out for themselves... and I believe the parents drive the jealousy that will end up killing any intention (you have) to "build" some kind of team.  Parents want to win but they don't want your kid doing better than theirs.  There are coaches with the best intentions, and there are parents that are not out there looking for UCLA to approach their kid at SURF, but those kids always weed themselves out with time.


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## foreveryoung (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


Agree, but you left out lots of other atrocious adult behavior in youth sports.  Speaking badly of other kids in front of their kids, ranking kids on the team in front of their kids, making fun of other kids in front of their kids, lack of loyalty, lack of commitment - if something isn't exactly how you think it should be leave it - not referring to legitimate cases of unsafe situations of course, or individuals moving between seasons, but lots of moving for "better teams" or in the middle of a season and in strategic clusters as the OP described.  

And then we complain that the youth these days are entitled, lack perseverance, and are bullies, etc. etc. .....  

There are of course authentic, fun, ethical parents that we have met and have become friends with but plenty of experience with the others too.


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## dad4 (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


Based on what I have seen, this level of drama happens in less than 1% of teams.  Normally, one or two kids will leave each year and that is it.  Not really something you need to prepare emotional armor for.

It happens at strong clubs, too.  The one up by us was the best team in the state.  But they were the one with the over the top parent drama.


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## EOTL (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


The self-pity is getting out of control. If a “friend” is bent out of shape that some teammates are seeking out better opportunities for themselves, they aren’t really a friend at all. What kind of “friend” tells his friends they need to do what I want or you can’t be my friend? If you want to be a good friend to someone, be happy for them when they go somewhere that is a better fit, don’t get whiny that you can’t control other people and make them do what is best for you, but not them. Why do you think kids on a soccer team can only be lifelong friends if they play together forever?


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## Kicknit22 (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


Had a college coach tell me that it’s most important that the player is playing for him/herself first, team second.  Friendships will develop, but can’t put too much importance on them.  Friendships can get in the way of decision making when it comes to personal advancement.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I agree... the TM was very supportive throughout the year.  He was very open until he was not...
> 
> Everything changed, the last week of January. Half the team didn’t show up for a game. He was telling everyone to go to the game because he ran the Shutterfly. Team had to forfeit . Parents called and he said  “by the way the team is over,  good luck.”   Coach was shocked and angered…  Half the parents knew what was going on the other half didn’t.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the team was doomed from the start with half the team focusing on development/competition and the other half viewing it as more of a social thing.  Stop blaming the TM and like you said...focus on your own kids development if you want to save yourself heartache in the future.  If your kid develops and is really good (and if the parents are not crazy) then teams will be asking her to come and tryout rather than not telling you about tryouts.


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## Emma (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> I have read each post and see truth in all that have posted. Thanks
> 
> The one part of this conversation that I believe we have forgotten:  What are the kids  learning about friendships and sports in this situation?
> 
> ...


It happens at "strong" clubs.  Lots of politics in strong clubs that can cause people to leave.  Most of the problem lies with the coach and team make up.  When it happened to us and my daughter cried because she was going to miss her teammates, it was tough on me to see her go through it.  Eventually when the emotions went away, I took the opportunity to explain to her that friendships and bonds created on a soccer team are like friendships and bonds created in a classroom or a workplace.  Once a friend is no longer working with you or placed in the same class, it then just takes more effort to stay friends with each other.  
Whether your friend left because they were placed on a lower or a higher team or because the current situation wasn't working out for them (coach/club/a toxic parent/bully on team), should not  define your friendship.  Soccer allows you to meet many friends, some will stay for a season and come back once in a while.  Some friendships will last a lifetime - depending on the effort and time you have to nourish it.  

My daughter has been lucky enough to keep in contact and remain close friends with 2 of the girls that left.  They play games online together, hang out at tournaments, have play dates, birthday parties, etc.  

Most parents confer with their children to see what their kids want and most of the time the kids are the ones fed up with the situation first, prompting the parents to find options. 

For the ones that don't, the parents are doing what they think is best for their child and it's not about hurting your child.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 7, 2020)

Emma said:


> It happens at "strong" clubs.  Lots of politics in strong clubs that can cause people to leave.  Most of the problem lies with the coach and team make up.  When it happened to us and my daughter cried because she was going to miss her teammates, it was tough on me to see her go through it.  Eventually when the emotions went away, I took the opportunity to explain to her that friendships and bonds created on a soccer team are like friendships and bonds created in a classroom or a workplace.  Once a friend is no longer working with you or placed in the same class, it then just takes more effort to stay friends with each other.
> Whether your friend left because they were placed on a lower or a higher team or because the current situation wasn't working out for them (coach/club/a toxic parent/bully on team), should not  define your friendship.  Soccer allows you to meet many friends, some will stay for a season and come back once in a while.  Some friendships will last a lifetime - depending on the effort and time you have to nourish it.
> 
> My daughter has been lucky enough to keep in contact and remain close friends with 2 of the girls that left.  They play games online together, hang out at tournaments, have play dates, birthday parties, etc.
> ...


Good stuff Emma.  You have a way with your words through your writing.  I will say 100% you have been one of the most consistent posters on here. Middle and fair.  You see both sides.  I mean that.


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## timbuck (Apr 7, 2020)

In most cases when I've seen a clique within a team make a sneaky move to another team -  It lasts about a season.
"These 6 players carry the team.  Those other 9 aren't good enough for our players.  I know this coach that wants us to come and play for him.  They'll be playing Flight 1 next year.  And the coach played at a junior college for a year before he transferred to Chico state where he was on the team, but only played 5 minutes per year.  But he is intense.  I love hearing him scream and yell.  Our current coach doesn't say a word during games. He sucks.  I wish this season would end already so my little Becky can shine like the star I know she is.  And your daughter has the biggest kick I've ever seen.  This new coach will make sure she uses it by smashing the ball forward to Jenny.  I'm so happy that Jenny is following us too. She is so fast, but our dumb coach plays her as an outside defender and she never gets to show her speed chasing down those big kicks."


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## Ellejustus (Apr 7, 2020)

timbuck said:


> In most cases when I've seen a clique within a team make a sneaky move to another team -  It lasts about a season.
> "These 6 players carry the team.  Those other 9 aren't good enough for our players.  I know this coach that wants us to come and play for him.  They'll be playing Flight 1 next year.  And the coach played at a junior college for a year before he transferred to Chico state where he was on the team, but only played 5 minutes per year.  But he is intense.  I love hearing him scream and yell.  Our current coach doesn't say a word during games. He sucks.  I wish this season would end already so my little Becky can shine like the star I know she is.  And your daughter has the biggest kick I've ever seen.  This new coach will make sure she uses it by smashing the ball forward to Jenny.  I'm so happy that Jenny is following us too. She is so fast, but our dumb coach plays her as an outside defender and she never gets to show her speed chasing down those big kicks."


Bro, we must have crossed paths before.  Nothing like the TM who thinks he's also the GM for next years moves and who knows best


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## Copa9 (Apr 7, 2020)

foreveryoung said:


> Agree, but you left out lots of other atrocious adult behavior in youth sports.  Speaking badly of other kids in front of their kids, ranking kids on the team in front of their kids, making fun of other kids in front of their kids, lack of loyalty, lack of commitment - if something isn't exactly how you think it should be leave it - not referring to legitimate cases of unsafe situations of course, or individuals moving between seasons, but lots of moving for "better teams" or in the middle of a season and in strategic clusters as the OP described.
> 
> And then we complain that the youth these days are entitled, lack perseverance, and are bullies, etc. etc. .....
> 
> There are of course authentic, fun, ethical parents that we have met and have become friends with but plenty of experience with the others too.





Emma said:


> It happens at "strong" clubs.  Lots of politics in strong clubs that can cause people to leave.  Most of the problem lies with the coach and team make up.  When it happened to us and my daughter cried because she was going to miss her teammates, it was tough on me to see her go through it.  Eventually when the emotions went away, I took the opportunity to explain to her that friendships and bonds created on a soccer team are like friendships and bonds created in a classroom or a workplace.  Once a friend is no longer working with you or placed in the same class, it then just takes more effort to stay friends with each other.
> Whether your friend left because they were placed on a lower or a higher team or because the current situation wasn't working out for them (coach/club/a toxic parent/bully on team), should not  define your friendship.  Soccer allows you to meet many friends, some will stay for a season and come back once in a while.  Some friendships will last a lifetime - depending on the effort and time you have to nourish it.
> 
> My daughter has been lucky enough to keep in contact and remain close friends with 2 of the girls that left.  They play games online together, hang out at tournaments, have play dates, birthday parties, etc.
> ...


We are definitely in the "me" generation more than ever.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 7, 2020)




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## Daijobdes (Apr 7, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The self-pity is getting out of control. If a “friend” is bent out of shape that some teammates are seeking out better opportunities for themselves, they aren’t really a friend at all. What kind of “friend” tells his friends they need to do what I want or you can’t be my friend? If you want to be a good friend to someone, be happy for them when they go somewhere that is a better fit, don’t get whiny that you can’t control other people and make them do what is best for you, but not them. Why do you think kids on a soccer team can only be lifelong friends if they play together forever?


 
To Expand on this... Lies were told to some of the players to cover up the group that was leaving. One kid asked the TMs kid "Are you leaving the team?" The kid asking overheard them talking but didn't hear the whole story.... The TM's kid denied he was leaving even though he had tried out the week before. Parents instructing their kids “to lie to friends” was unforgivable.

To follow up...I understand one or two kids going out for greener pastures. I do not understand when a TM "guts" the team and tells half the team to lie about it... That is unethical and reprehensible behavior. The TM has a duty to treat everyone equally... if not resign and do your planning outside the guise of team leadership.


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## timbuck (Apr 7, 2020)

Any parent who thinks their kid can keep a secret about soccer is living in a fantasy world.  If the kids don’t say something to other kids, there’s definitely someone at a tryout/training session that knows someone on the other team and will mention it to someone.


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## Futbol30 (Apr 7, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Any parent who thinks their kid can keep a secret about soccer is living in a fantasy world.  If the kids don’t say something to other kids, there’s definitely someone at a tryout/training session that knows someone on the other team and will mention it to someone.


Yes, that always cracks me up... parents who think that they can take their kid to a tryout and nobody will find out. Ummm.... hello? Have we not figured out how small the club soccer world is by now? If parents want to tell their kids not to say anything.. that's on them I am not here to tell people how to parent their children but I will say this.... PEOPLE WILL FIND OUT. But now I'm completely getting off the topic and don't want to hijack the thread so I will shut up now. 

Hope everyone is surviving all the lack of soccer and family time   stay safe and healthy everyone!!


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## Soccer43 (Apr 7, 2020)

Things I’ve learned over years of elite soccer:
1.  Pick the coach that is right for your player.
2.  Make sure the club has a solid reputation of ethics and the right priorities.
3.  If the level of play is not correct for your player, make a change if you want to go somewhere in soccer (college, pros etc)- no matter what friends are there or what fantasies or promises you have been told.
4.  Make decisions that are right for your player and screw what everyone one else has to say.  As a parent you have to do what is best for your player.
5.  The truly best players will continue to rise to the top and shine- others that are not truly great will eventually drop off as time goes by.
6.  Never stay with a club, coach or team that is destructive or toxic for your player.  Never stay where you are not respected.  
7.  You do not have an obligation to sacrifice your players overall well being because someone else thinks you should do one thing or another.
7.  If you aren’t happy on a team you have a right to leave - youth soccer is not indentured  servitude


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## Ellejustus (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> To Expand on this... Lies were told to some of the players to cover up the group that was leaving. One kid asked the TMs kid "Are you leaving the team?" The kid asking overheard them talking but didn't hear the whole story.... The TM's kid denied he was leaving even though he had tried out the week before. Parents instructing their kids “to lie to friends” was unforgivable.
> 
> To follow up...I understand one or two kids going out for greener pastures. I do not understand when a TM "guts" the team and tells half the team to lie about it... That is unethical and reprehensible behavior. The TM has a duty to treat everyone equally... if not resign and do your planning outside the guise of team leadership.


I agree on the friends who lie part.  You lie to my dd once and it's dog house time.  Next lie, no friendship.


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## foreveryoung (Apr 7, 2020)

Soccer43 said:


> if you want to go somewhere in soccer (college, pros etc)-


Who is "you" here, the parent or the child?


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## blam (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> One kid asked the TMs kid "Are you leaving the team?"


This is like asking your SO  "Do you still love me?" How is he/she supposed to answer this? If he answers yes, it would be bad for team morale. If no, he would be lying eventually. The person who is asked this question cannot win. However, I agree...leaving is fine but recruiting a majority of the players to join another team seem unethical.


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## EOTL (Apr 7, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> To Expand on this... Lies were told to some of the players to cover up the group that was leaving. One kid asked the TMs kid "Are you leaving the team?" The kid asking overheard them talking but didn't hear the whole story.... The TM's kid denied he was leaving even though he had tried out the week before. Parents instructing their kids “to lie to friends” was unforgivable.
> 
> To follow up...I understand one or two kids going out for greener pastures. I do not understand when a TM "guts" the team and tells half the team to lie about it... That is unethical and reprehensible behavior. The TM has a duty to treat everyone equally... if not resign and do your planning outside the guise of team leadership.


Why do you think they didn’t invite you and your kid along? I think you’re focusing on what happened when you should be focusing on why.


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## Daijobdes (Apr 8, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Why do you think they didn’t invite you and your kid along? I think you’re focusing on what happened when you should be focusing on why.


Yes. I understand. It could be a myriad of reasons. They may not have liked me or my kid. I understand that.

Issue:  6 parents/players know they are leaving the team.  7 parents/believe the team is staying together.11V11.  The TM had a moral and ethical duty to notify the team that they needed to try out for other teams in January.

7 kids missed tryouts in January because the TM was negligent .It was already going to be an issue because January tryout season was missed.  Now with COVID-19 it could be months before the 7 get on other teams.  

Again the team breaking up was unfortunate... but how it broke up helped a few and left others high and dry for a time without a team.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 8, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> Yes. I understand. It could be a myriad of reasons. They may not have liked me or my kid. I understand that.
> 
> Issue:  6 parents/players know they are leaving the team.  7 parents/believe the team is staying together.11V11.  The TM had a moral and ethical duty to notify the team that they needed to try out for other teams in January.
> 
> ...


Q. Where is the coach in all this?  Just curious.  Can you share without names? Is the coach staying?  Did he leave with the gang of six?  Sounds like a ship without a captain and that my friend is a ship headed to no mans land.  Get off the ship and look for another ship to sail with.  Watch out for the Black Pearl.


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## Eagle33 (Apr 8, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> Yes. I understand. It could be a myriad of reasons. They may not have liked me or my kid. I understand that.
> 
> Issue:  6 parents/players know they are leaving the team.  7 parents/believe the team is staying together.11V11.  The TM had a moral and ethical duty to notify the team that they needed to try out for other teams in January.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about being picked up on a team. Many teams will be looking once this is over.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Apr 8, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> Issue:  6 parents/players know they are leaving the team.  7 parents/believe the team is staying together.11V11.  The TM had a moral and ethical duty to notify the team that they needed to try out for other teams in January.
> 
> 7 kids missed tryouts in January because the TM was negligent .It was already going to be an issue because January tryout season was missed.  Now with COVID-19 it could be months before the 7 get on other teams.


TM does not have an obligation to watch out for your kid's future development.  That's your job.  Any team can fall apart after the season is over...it's the parent's job to make sure they have options to pursue.  

As a TM I have observed a pattern over the years - Kids that improve the least/are lowest performing have parents that complain the most and blame others.  Go figure.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 8, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> TM does not have an obligation to watch out for your kid's future development.  That's your job.  Any team can fall apart after the season is over...it's the parent's job to make sure they have options to pursue.
> 
> As a TM I have observed a pattern over the years - Kids that improve the least/are lowest performing have parents that complain the most and blame others.  Go figure.


What does this have anything to do with development?  It was a team that made a commitment to play together for one year.  The TM (according to OP) got six parents together and left them high and dry mid season with no team.  Again, where is the coach?  I need info on the coach before I make a final judgement on this case.  Right now, I think the TM sucks in this situation.  "Don;t tell Sally were taking off mid season.  Just lie honey.  Shhhhhhhh"


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## Daijobdes (Apr 8, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> TM does not have an obligation to watch out for your kid's future development.  That's your job.  Any team can fall apart after the season is over...it's the parent's job to make sure they have options to pursue.
> 
> As a TM I have observed a pattern over the years - Kids that improve the least/are lowest performing have parents that complain the most and blame others.  Go figure.


At first I did not agree with you on this...  But I do see your point....  it really comes down to ethics and morals..

*Ethics* and *morals* relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: *ethics* refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. *Morals* refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong.

The TMs morals are suspect but he may not be ethically bound to do anything.  I reviewed the code of conduct for the club and it did not have an ethical code of conduct for the team.  RED FLAG.  It did say  "have an open line of communication with the parents".  FWTW.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Apr 8, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> At first I did not agree with you on this...  But I do see your point....  it really comes down to ethics and morals..
> 
> *Ethics* and *morals* relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: *ethics* refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. *Morals* refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong.
> 
> The TMs morals are suspect but he may not be ethically bound to do anything.  I reviewed the code of conduct for the club and it did not have an ethical code of conduct for the team.  RED FLAG.  It did say  "have an open line of communication with the parents".  FWTW.


The point I'm trying to make is don't place all of your trust into a club, team, coach or TM.  If you do you will eventually be disappointed.  Own your kids individual development, have them work hard to get better on their own, find a coach who will work to improve the players, don't worry so much about trophies.  And then sit back, enjoy the game and everything will fall into place.


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## Surf Zombie (Apr 8, 2020)

When my 2007 daughter (who is my oldest) was U9 we were in our family’s first year of club soccer. Completely oblivious to the club soccer world. That was the year before the birth year change and she was on a team full of her friends from school who were 2006, 2007 & 2008 players.  Everyone got along great and the kids and parents were a pleasure to be around.

When we got to about a month before tryouts, with the birth year change looming, just about every parent on that team went into secret agent mode. People lying, kids trying out at 5 different clubs, certain parents trying to hold the 2007s together, other parents trying to get us to go someplace as a “package deal” to another club.

It was a huge eye opener. From that moment on I learned a very important club soccer lesson, which is, as much as you like the other kids or parents, you absolutely have to look out for your own kid’s interest at all times and that is where your decision making should start and ends. None of the other parents, including the team manager, can be counted on to look out for your kid and you can’t expect that.


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## outside! (Apr 8, 2020)

Parents and players should always honor their season commitments (as long as there is no abusive behavior from the coach/club), but when that season is over it is nobody else's business but theirs what they are considering for the next season until that decision is made. That is also true for the coach, club and teammates. Don't tell lies and if it is time to move on, move on. As Surf Zombie says, look out for what is best for your player, but remember that includes setting a good example in honesty and honorable behavior.


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## Jason DiDomenico (Apr 8, 2020)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> TM does not have an obligation to watch out for your kid's future development.  That's your job.  Any team can fall apart after the season is over...it's the parent's job to make sure they have options to pursue.
> 
> As a TM I have observed a pattern over the years - Kids that improve the least/are lowest performing have parents that complain the most and blame others.  Go figure.


Amen!


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## EOTL (Apr 8, 2020)

outside! said:


> Parents and players should always honor their season commitments (as long as there is no abusive behavior from the coach/club), but when that season is over it is nobody else's business but theirs what they are considering for the next season until that decision is made. That is also true for the coach, club and teammates. Don't tell lies and if it is time to move on, move on. As Surf Zombie says, look out for what is best for your player, but remember that includes setting a good example in honesty and honorable behavior.


Yeah, I can’t imagine how awful some of the remaining parents must have been that so many families felt compelled to leave right in the middle of the season.


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## timbuck (Apr 8, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Yeah, I can’t imagine how awful some of the remaining parents must have been that so many families felt compelled to leave right in the middle of the season.





outside! said:


> Parents and players should always honor their season commitments (as long as there is no abusive behavior from the coach/club), but when that season is over it is nobody else's business but theirs what they are considering for the next season until that decision is made. That is also true for the coach, club and teammates. Don't tell lies and if it is time to move on, move on. As Surf Zombie says, look out for what is best for your player, but remember that includes setting a good example in honesty and honorable behavior.


I don't think this was the "middle" of the season. Sounds like the season ended in November.  
Tryouts took place all over town during December and January.  Players made decisions to leave.
State Cup was to be played (I assume this is an 06 or younger team, but could be wrong) in February.  Did these players bail out of state cup?
"Technically" the year you pay for ends when State Cup is completed.  But clubs hold tryouts as soon as the fall season ends.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Apr 9, 2020)

Daijobdes said:


> To Expand on this... Lies were told to some of the players to cover up the group that was leaving. One kid asked the TMs kid "Are you leaving the team?" The kid asking overheard them talking but didn't hear the whole story.... The TM's kid denied he was leaving even though he had tried out the week before. Parents instructing their kids “to lie to friends” was unforgivable.
> 
> To follow up...I understand one or two kids going out for greener pastures. I do not understand when a TM "guts" the team and tells half the team to lie about it... That is unethical and reprehensible behavior. The TM has a duty to treat everyone equally... if not resign and do your planning outside the guise of team leadership.


Was this an open tryout for everyone?  Aren't there major constraints for leaving a team mid season?  Like no State Cup games, etc?  And I was under the impression you couldn't just go play for another team without your player card... which the TM would have needed to pass along.  Does SoCal just ignore all this stuff? Too many teams... too many players... just do what you want?


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## socalkdg (Apr 9, 2020)

timbuck said:


> In most cases when I've seen a clique within a team make a sneaky move to another team -  It lasts about a season.
> "These 6 players carry the team.  Those other 9 aren't good enough for our players.  I know this coach that wants us to come and play for him.  They'll be playing Flight 1 next year.  And the coach played at a junior college for a year before he transferred to Chico state where he was on the team, but only played 5 minutes per year.  But he is intense.  I love hearing him scream and yell.  Our current coach doesn't say a word during games. He sucks.  I wish this season would end already so my little Becky can shine like the star I know she is.  And your daughter has the biggest kick I've ever seen.  This new coach will make sure she uses it by smashing the ball forward to Jenny.  I'm so happy that Jenny is following us too. She is so fast, but our dumb coach plays her as an outside defender and she never gets to show her speed chasing down those big kicks."


This team was doomed from the start.  Everyone knows in girls soccer you start with the keeper.   Should have made sure she was coming with you guys.   Now poor Jenny, Becky, and Sara will have to rotate at keeper.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Apr 9, 2020)

timbuck said:


> I don't think this was the "middle" of the season. Sounds like the season ended in November.
> Tryouts took place all over town during December and January.  Players made decisions to leave.
> State Cup was to be played (I assume this is an 06 or younger team, but could be wrong) in February.  Did these players bail out of state cup?
> "Technically" the year you pay for ends when State Cup is completed.  But clubs hold tryouts as soon as the fall season ends.


Saw this just after I posted... so yeah, different deal if it's during open tryouts, but in NorCal there are some pretty severe consequences if you bail on a team mid season.  You burn permanent bridges and, like most any other market besides SoCal, there aren't enough clubs to burn that many bridges.  Players up north typically don't get to come back if you fuck a club over hard enough.


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## paytoplay (Apr 9, 2020)

timbuck said:


> I don't think this was the "middle" of the season. Sounds like the season ended in November.
> Tryouts took place all over town during December and January.  Players made decisions to leave.
> State Cup was to be played (I assume this is an 06 or younger team, but could be wrong) in February.  Did these players bail out of state cup?
> "Technically" the year you pay for ends when State Cup is completed.  But clubs hold tryouts as soon as the fall season ends.


Did the group with the tm go to a different club?


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## Banana Hammock (Apr 10, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Saw this just after I posted... so yeah, different deal if it's during open tryouts, but in NorCal there are some pretty severe consequences if you bail on a team mid season.  You burn permanent bridges and, like most any other market besides SoCal, there aren't enough clubs to burn that many bridges.  Players up north typically don't get to come back if you fuck a club over hard enough.


I find it hard to believe that money in Norcal  is of any less value than it is in Socal.  Money talks and that's the way it will always be.  In my experience, there is no such thing as a permanently burnt bridge when money is exchanged.  To put it another way. a used car salesman in a track suit will sell to anyone.


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## Ellejustus (Apr 10, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Saw this just after I posted... so yeah, different deal if it's during open tryouts, but in NorCal there are some pretty severe consequences if you bail on a team mid season.  You burn permanent bridges and, like most any other market besides SoCal, there aren't enough clubs to burn that many bridges.  Players up north typically don't get to come back if you fuck a club over hard enough.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Apr 10, 2020)

Banana Hammock said:


> I find it hard to believe that money in Norcal  is of any less value than it is in Socal.  Money talks and that's the way it will always be.  In my experience, there is no such thing as a permanently burnt bridge when money is exchanged.  To put it another way. a used car salesman in a track suit will sell to anyone.


I've watched it happen.  You have to remember the sample size is so much smaller up north.  Only 4-5 clubs, if not less, in every 'major' region.  Much harder to hide.


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