# War in Ukraine soon?



## blam (Feb 17, 2022)

So I try to get my news from at least both opposing sides and I am getting really confused.

On the US side, it looks like Russia could be invading Ukraine at any time.





Then I switch channels and watch RT and they are making fun of how ridiculous it is that Russia would invade Ukraine.





I find that if RT, which is Russia funded, is taking the position that it is completely hysterical to suggest that there would be an invasion and if Russia does in fact invade in the near future, its credibility would be completely destroyed. It would be the end of the Russian propaganda machine. So i highly doubt that they are bluffing on this matter which is why I trust them more, they got more to lose.

Anyone else getting the same vibes?


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 17, 2022)

From 7/15/2021


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 17, 2022)

‘A whistling sound, then an explosion’: Shelling hits a kindergarten in Ukraine.
					

“We’ve said for some time that the Russians might do something like this in order to justify a military conflict,” said the U.S. defense secretary, Lloyd J. Austin III. “So we’ll be watching this very closely.”




					www.nytimes.com


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## blam (Feb 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> ‘A whistling sound, then an explosion’: Shelling hits a kindergarten in Ukraine.
> 
> 
> “We’ve said for some time that the Russians might do something like this in order to justify a military conflict,” said the U.S. defense secretary, Lloyd J. Austin III. “So we’ll be watching this very closely.”
> ...


What are you trying to say?

The RT again says its ridiculous to think Russia will invade Ukraine. If they proceed to invade, no one will ever trust RT again so I do not think they are lying.









						Lavrov labels Western ‘Russia invasion’ claims ‘propaganda, fakes and fiction’
					

No serious observer would take Western claims that Russia is about to attack Ukraine at face value, the Russian foreign minister says




					www.rt.com


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 18, 2022)

blam said:


> What are you trying to say?
> 
> The RT again says its ridiculous to think Russia will invade Ukraine. If they proceed to invade, no one will ever trust RT again so I do not think they are lying.
> 
> ...


They have been at war for years and no one trusts rt already.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They have been at war for years and no one trusts rt already.


I have found their report on Russia to be pretty accurate and trustworthy. Either that or they shy away from even mentioning. This is the awesomeness of government sponsored news channels. They do not lie and if they have to, they will avoid the topic rather than to lie. They also often provide news from another angle and another emphasis that the other side does not provide. Any instances where they lied in the past?


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 18, 2022)

blam said:


> I have found their report on Russia to be pretty accurate and trustworthy. Either that or they shy away from even mentioning. This is the awesomeness of government sponsored news channels. They do not lie and if they have to, they will avoid the topic rather than to lie. They also often provide news from another angle and another emphasis that the other side does not provide. Any instances where they lied in the past?











						Russia Today is not alternative news: it is propaganda | Little Atoms
					

.... Ignoring the motivation of Kremlin propaganda is stupid and disingenuous




					littleatoms.com


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## tenacious (Feb 19, 2022)

I think Matt Taibbi has had some interesting articles on this. I pay to read his substack and am a fan of his.

Otherwise my read on the situation is that in a rush to address climate change German leadership over promised and under delivered. From German companies like VW finding ways to cheat emissions tests on their cars to finding new sources of clean energy... big promises were made... but the end result is they are now dependent on the Russians to keep their populations houses warm through the winter.

And of course, because Germany is not in a position to fight back; Putin sees an opportunity to annex Ukraine away from Europe. The best argument I've read why America and NATO should protect the nations sovereignty from Russia is that when the USSR fell the only reason Ukraine was willing to give up the nukes on their soil was that they would become an autonomous nation. Looking forward at a world where 'nukes' are more and more common- my thinking is we need to be true to our word when it comes nations who are willing to forgo such weapons.

Personally what scares me most, is you see Turkey get drawn into this. Russia isn't as powerful as it's playing, and given Erdogan's sinking popularity with his Turkish people, I imagine a little saber rattling and protection work in eastern Europe doesn't sound like an off the wall idea.  Likewise looking over to Taiwan... or even some of those central Asian republics. China could call Russias bluff, and start taking gas fields.


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## thirteenknots (Feb 19, 2022)

blam said:


> So I try to get my news from at least both opposing sides and I am getting really confused.
> 
> On the US side, it looks like Russia could be invading Ukraine at any time.
> 
> ...



Yep.

Joe Biden is creating a " War " out of Military
exercises that Russia and Belarus had planned for a 
long time.

He ( Joe sniffer Biden ) has a lot of skeletons in Ukraine.
A lot of skeletons, that's why he is trying to force a 
regime change by coercing Vladimir Zelenskiy out.
Watch what they do with Kamala " Willie Brown " Harris.

Just like he did when the prosecutor in Ukraine was going 
to rip Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.

You ALL should look at the BIG picture that is transpiring 
right now, on the whole globe.

Klaus Schwab and George Soros are literally behind all that
you see going on. 

Best thing every one of you could do is ditch the tracking Apps 
and reformat your phones. You have NO IDEA what is planned
with the very phones everyone carries.

Think this is all a joke, just wait til the reset and tell me I was wrong.

Everything I predicted and posted has been proven correct.

You think Espola is a normal poster, think again.


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## espola (Feb 19, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> Yep.
> 
> Joe Biden is creating a " War " out of Military
> exercises that Russia and Belarus had planned for a
> ...


Coocoo.


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## Grace T. (Feb 19, 2022)

Either Biden is right and there’s a massive buildup for war that’s right around the corner or rt is right and Russia has no plan to invade and this is all a western fabrication. Someone is lying through their teeth. Given the evacuations of Russians in the area and the false flag operations underway like the claims of Russian mass graves slaughtered by Ukrainians, the scales have definitely tilted to Biden being right.

we will know, most likely no later than Tuesday but definitely by Friday of next week. It’s an early spring and the Russians are very concerned about Ukrainian mud…if they don’t go now there’s no time to go at all. The olympics end this weekend. It’s been widely reported that there are rumors of assurances by Russia to China that they won’t step on the olympics.  Plus is Russia in the hockey finals?


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## thirteenknots (Feb 21, 2022)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


You've proven yourself to be many times over.


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## Grace T. (Feb 21, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Either Biden is right and there’s a massive buildup for war that’s right around the corner or rt is right and Russia has no plan to invade and this is all a western fabrication. Someone is lying through their teeth. Given the evacuations of Russians in the area and the false flag operations underway like the claims of Russian mass graves slaughtered by Ukrainians, the scales have definitely tilted to Biden being right.
> 
> we will know, most likely no later than Tuesday but definitely by Friday of next week. It’s an early spring and the Russians are very concerned about Ukrainian mud…if they don’t go now there’s no time to go at all. The olympics end this weekend. It’s been widely reported that there are rumors of assurances by Russia to China that they won’t step on the olympics.  Plus is Russia in the hockey finals?


putin has recognized the independence of the Donbas Republics.  Coming after the Russians being massacred and the shelling false flags, it's almost exactly the same playbook Putin has run 3 times before.


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## Grace T. (Feb 21, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> putin has recognized the independence of the Donbas Republics.  Coming after the Russians being massacred and the shelling false flags, it's almost exactly the same playbook Putin has run 3 times before.


It's started.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495871597059706887


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## crush (Feb 21, 2022)

A message from Vladi...
					

Subscribe to il Presidento's rumble channel here: https://rumble.com/c/ilDonaldoTrumpo Join our Amazing Patrioto Familia at http://www.ildonaldo.com




					rumble.com


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## Grace T. (Feb 23, 2022)

Looks like the Ukrainians have accepted the reality this is likely happening.....



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496620289563709443


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## espola (Feb 23, 2022)

__





						Instagram
					






					www.instagram.com


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 23, 2022)

News break “we heard explosions” and? Nothing. Since this has been going on since 2014, “hearing explosions” isn’t that news worthy . . . wag that dog.


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## Brav520 (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> News break “we heard explosions” and? Nothing. Since this has been going on since 2014, “hearing explosions” isn’t that news worthy . . . wag that dog.


this did not age well


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

Watching the world news this morning and seeing some of the comments in social media (“I’d rather have trump as a king then (sic) Biden as a president”) made me wonder if a Red Dawn scenario were to unfold how many Americans would quickly jump ship and help the invading forces?


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## what-happened (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Watching the world news this morning and seeing some of the comments in social media (“I’d rather have trump as a king then (sic) Biden as a president”) made me wonder if a Red Dawn scenario were to unfold how many Americans would quickly jump ship and help the invading forces?


Your delusions are glorious...and entertaining.


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## whatithink (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Watching the world news this morning and seeing some of the comments in social media (“I’d rather have trump as a king then (sic) Biden as a president”) made me wonder if a Red Dawn scenario were to unfold how many Americans would quickly jump ship and help the invading forces?


Obviously that ain't happening.

That said, it is bizarre that Russian TV is re-broadcasting Tucker with subtitles

Ragıp Soylu on Twitter: "Russian state broadcaster RT just published Tucker Carlson’s rant to defend Putin with Russian subtitles https://t.co/atmHt4TlmS" / Twitter


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

In arrogance, our leaders thought that we would not see this  (not seen since WII) in Europe again.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496861923073138695


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## Brav520 (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Watching the world news this morning and seeing some of the comments in social media (“I’d rather have trump as a king then (sic) Biden as a president”) made me wonder if a Red Dawn scenario were to unfold how many Americans would quickly jump ship and help the invading forces?


you have been watching way too much CNN and MSNBC


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

Putin has bitten more than he can chew off.  The western retaliation (even if Germany vetoes swift severance) will be painful and internal resistance will grow as Russian body bags get sent home (and there have been some already) and the economy tumbles.  The west has no choice but to make this as painful as possible in both weapons and economic pain or China will next invade Taiwan raising the likelihood of a nuclear exchange.  His choices are now going full Stalin on his own population and the Ukraine or he'll be toppled.  I'm not sure which yet as both possibilities are increasingly likely as others get squeezed out.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496905869983768581


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## espola (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> In arrogance, our leaders thought that we would not see this  (not seen since WII) in Europe again.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496861923073138695


That's really ignorant.


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

espola said:


> That's really ignorant.


Oh please....the civil war in Yugoslavia was nothing in comparison to what we will see today with the No. 5 military power going up against the No. 22.


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## Brav520 (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Putin has bitten more than he can chew off.  The western retaliation (even if Germany vetoes swift severance) will be painful and internal resistance will grow as Russian body bags get sent home (and there have been some already) and the economy tumbles.  The west has no choice but to make this as painful as possible in both weapons and economic pain or China will next invade Taiwan raising the likelihood of a nuclear exchange.  His choices are now going full Stalin on his own population and the Ukraine or he'll be toppled.  I'm not sure which yet as both possibilities are increasingly likely as others get squeezed out.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496905869983768581


I don’t think that will work, I think you have to figure out a way to go after the oligarchs and their families money( if you can find it ). Not sure Putin really cares about the Russian people 

the Chelsea owner would be a good start


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## espola (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Oh please....the civil war in Yugoslavia was nothing in comparison to what we will see today with the No. 5 military power going up against the No. 22.


Was it in Europe?  Yes.

Was it after WW2?  Yes.

Did our leaders think we would not see this?  No.

Please continue.


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

espola said:


> Was it in Europe?  Yes.
> 
> Was it after WW2?  Yes.
> 
> ...


If you are comparing the significance of the Yugoslave civil war to the wholesale invasion of another state, go ahead troll away.  It's your shtick.  You may as well throw in the Greek civil war, cyprus, and the Irish troubles.


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## Brav520 (Feb 24, 2022)

_Viktor Vekselberg's $120,000,000 yacht is currently docked in Europe, the Spanish islands. It could be seized. 

Roman Abramovich's $590,000,000 yacht Eclipse is in Sint Maarten (Netherlands territory). It could be seized_.


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## espola (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If you are comparing the significance of the Yugoslave civil war to the wholesale invasion of another state, go ahead troll away.  It's your shtick.  You may as well throw in the Greek civil war, cyprus, and the Irish troubles.


The "Yugoslav civil war" eventually involved NATO, including US forces.

You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you (not any more than usual anyway).


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## thirteenknots (Feb 24, 2022)

espola said:


> Was it in Europe?  Yes.
> 
> Was it after WW2?  Yes.
> 
> ...



Is that your hand ?

Oh, it's your " Resident " after Putin kicked him from afar.

Wait til Xi takes Taiwan tomorrow or the day after.


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

espola said:


> The "Yugoslav civil war" eventually involved NATO, including US forces.
> 
> You're doing great.  No one is laughing at you (not any more than usual anyway).


"Oh Magoo....you've done it again!"


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> Is that your hand ?
> 
> Oh, it's your " Resident " after Putin kicked him from afar.
> 
> ...


It's disturbing that you may be right about this.  If it's Taiwan, Japan and the United States will fight...it may very well end in a nuclear exchange.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496828022732689412


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## espola (Feb 24, 2022)




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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

I couldn’t find the inevitable Biden thread so I’ll post this here. Apparently it’s all his fault!









						Trump and other top conservatives rally to Putin's side as he threatens Ukraine
					

Donald Trump and his allies are working overtime to try to persuade Americans that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is really Joe Biden's fault.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

So let me get this straight, part of the reason the t-cult hates Liz Cheney is because she is a warmonger? . . . but at the same time Biden is a wimp for not sending soldiers into Ukraine?


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So let me get this straight, part of the reason the t-cult hates Liz Cheney is because she is a warmonger? . . . but at the same time Biden is a wimp for not sending soldiers into Ukraine?


You guys need to get your story straight.  Are the Republicans pro Russia and saying Russia should invade the Ukraine, or are the Republicans saying Biden is a wimp for not sending soldiers into the Ukraine?  Me thinks you just want to hate Republicans so either one is convenient.


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> You guys need to get your story straight.  Are the Republicans pro Russia and saying Russia should invade the Ukraine, or are the Republicans saying Biden is a wimp for not sending soldiers into the Ukraine?  Me thinks you just want to hate Republicans so either one is convenient.


You’re babbling.


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re babbling.


Boo....ripping that one off from another guy.  You go to the bottom of the troll list.  Shame after you've been embarassing espola recently.

Here's a hint: We all know troll is comedy (at least for the troll).  Being unoriginal is not only a sign of a feeble and uncreative mind, but it's also not funny.


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Boo....ripping that one off from another guy.  You go to the bottom of the troll list.  Shame after you've been embarassing espola recently.
> 
> Here's a hint: We all know troll is comedy (at least for the troll).  Being unoriginal is not only a sign of a feeble and uncreative mind, but it's also not funny.


No, I was being serious. Look at it as constructive criticism. And I would think you would hold yourself up as better than ‘I know you are but what am I’ prepubescent retorts.


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> No, I was being serious. Look at it as constructive criticism. And I would think you would hold yourself up as better than ‘I know you are but what am I’ prepubescent retorts.


Can you get negative points from the bottom?  When called on the carpet for your conflicting narratives, you went with a rip off of someone else's schtick.  Saying "I was being serious" just doubles down on the unfunny nature of your trolling, particularly given the irony that this began as constructive criticism of YOU....double irony where you didn't intend it.  You might have a few years still of apprenticing at espola's side before you earn your full troll master status.  This is not the way it's done....sorry but true....it's sad really....you showed such promise.


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Can you get negative points from the bottom?  When called on the carpet for your conflicting narratives, you went with a rip off of someone else's schtick.  Saying "I was being serious" just doubles down on the unfunny nature of your trolling, particularly given the irony that this began as constructive criticism of YOU....double irony where you didn't intend it.  You might have a few years still of apprenticing at espola's side before you earn your full troll master status.  This is not the way it's done....sorry but true....it's sad really....you showed such promise.


You’re hurt, I see that.


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 24, 2022)

blam said:


> So I try to get my news from at least both opposing sides and I am getting really confused.
> 
> On the US side, it looks like Russia could be invading Ukraine at any time.
> 
> ...






__ https://www.facebook.com/100066647494924/posts/346452624252985


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## Grace T. (Feb 24, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You’re hurt, I see that.


I'm not the one lashing out at the initial criticism man.  I can't helped it if you stepped in some doo doo and are now trying to deflect from it.   Again, with every step, you are just reinforcing the impression of a feeble and unfunny mind.  I'm really pulling for you to pull out of the tail spin you are in, but i'm not optimistic at this point.


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 25, 2022)

Trump, who was impeached for withholding nearly $400 million in military aid from Ukraine, said 'this deadly Ukraine situation would never have happened' if he were in office
					

Donald Trump's first impeachment stemmed, in part, from his efforts to pressure Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden while withholding vital security aid.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## Eagle33 (Feb 25, 2022)

When you lose leverage, bad actors take advantage. Trump understood this. | By Dan Crenshaw | Facebook
					

. 8.6M views, 198K likes, 21K loves, 22K comments, 153K shares. 8.6M views, 198K likes, 21K loves, 22K comments, 153K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Dan Crenshaw: When you lose leverage, bad...




					fb.watch
				



I guess he wasn't that stupid.....


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## Jar!23 (Feb 25, 2022)

Champions league final now moved from Russia to France.


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## Grace T. (Feb 25, 2022)

war crimes against civilians


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497249227184828416


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## Grace T. (Feb 25, 2022)

There is an axis.....









						U.S. Officials Repeatedly Urged China to Help Avert War in Ukraine
					

Americans presented Chinese officials with intelligence on Russia’s troop buildup in hopes that President Xi Jinping would step in, but were repeatedly rebuffed.




					www.nytimes.com


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## Eagle33 (Feb 25, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> war crimes against civilians
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497249227184828416


There is another video and driver of this car survived.


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## whatithink (Feb 25, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> There is an axis.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


& India which is closely aligned with Russia for defense.


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## espola (Feb 25, 2022)

"the ground will burn under your feet"









						Ukrainian Marine blows himself up, destroying bridge to slow Russian advance - Pop Smoke Media
					

Ukrainian Soldier blows himself up to destroy a bridge, slowing the advancement of Russian troops from Crimea to Mainland Ukraine.




					www.popsmokemedia.com


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## whatithink (Feb 25, 2022)

Ukrainian woman confronts Russian solder

"Take these seeds so sunflowers will grow when you die here."

Ukraine: Woman confronts armed Russian soldier - BBC News


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## whatithink (Feb 25, 2022)

Ukrainian man channeling his inner Tianamen Sq. as he tries to stop tanks 

НВ on Twitter: "Українець кидається під ворожу техніку, щоб окупанти не проїхали https://t.co/cZ29kknqhB" / Twitter


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## whatithink (Feb 25, 2022)

And then there's the guys on Snake Island

Ukraine soldiers told Russian officer ‘go fuck yourself’ before they died on island | Ukraine | The Guardian


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## whatithink (Feb 25, 2022)

On Thursday Anonymous declared cyber war with Russia, on Friday they claimed to have hacked the Russian Ministry for Defence and released it online.

Anonymous leaks database of the Russian Ministry of Defence | CyberNews


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

Name four Senator Son's who sit on Energy Boards in the Ukraine?


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## whatithink (Feb 26, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> Name four Senator Son's who sit on Energy Boards in the Ukraine?


Are you talking about this?

Fact check: Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry and Mitt Romney do not have sons on boards of energy companies doing business in Ukraine | Reuters

Another source

Did Sons of Top Democrats Do Business in Ukraine As Part of Clinton-Linked Conspiracy? | Snopes.com 

What's your thoughts on Russia invading Ukraine? Are you on the "Tucker Train", and all in and up Putin's ass?


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

*Son of Soros!!!*​

*"We are all Ukranian Today"*​
SoccerHelper has a question for @Grace T.  I just read an article about a US company based in Kiev where employees have decided to take on Russia and fight to the death for the company and Kiev.  These are not contract militia folks either, just regular folks like me and you.  These are Tech folks from the US.  Why on earth would a regular Tech worker fight to the death for the Tech company and go up against a Russian Tank or Jet or try and shoot one down?  I see these pics ((look staged to me)) of old ladies and regular folks being trained by a military dude to shoot down a Russian Jet. My advice is to either surrender or get the fuck out of dodge now like everyone else did a few nights before.  BTW Grace, I have a buddy that plays fighter jet video games and he swears 100% that he see's the same footage that CNN is showing.  I don;t play video games but something is not right. 

​


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Are you talking about this?
> 
> Fact check: Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry and Mitt Romney do not have sons on boards of energy companies doing business in Ukraine | Reuters


I'm not sure.  I know Joe Biden has a son that was on a board in the Ukraine and I know they had regime change 8 years ago for some big time pay to play games.  Bio labs over there or is that a big lie too.


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## whatithink (Feb 26, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> I'm not sure.  I know Joe Biden has a son that was on a board in the Ukraine and I know they had regime change 8 years ago for some big time pay to play games.  Bio labs over there or is that a big lie too.


Got it, you don't know what you are talking about, thanks for clarifying.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Got it, you don't know what you are talking about, thanks for clarifying.


Yes, I know nothing.  This is what i think, whatithink.  I think you are blind and brainwashed to boot.  You get your news at one place.  Got Jab?  Got any kids in the arm forces?


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## whatithink (Feb 26, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> Yes, I know nothing.  This is what i think, whatithink.  I think you are blind and brainwashed to boot.  You get your news at one place.  Got Jab?  Got any kids in the arm forces?


Usual crap, throw some crap up against the wall to see if it will stick, then deflect with another bunch of crap thrown against a wall. 

Substantiate nothing, support nothing, throw in a few insults - rinse and repeat.

You define you, and it ain't a pretty sight.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

Two Q for any smart ass on here.  Back drop: If you were a *USA Contract Worker or Foreign Worker* over....let's say Costa Rica, and you lived and worked over there for 10 years building a killer life and business and all was peachy until war broke out with Mexico.  You have a two week notice at least to make a decision to stay and die or leave.   

Q1.  Mexico warns everyone in advance to leave Costa Rica before the troops come and war breaks out.  What do you do?
A.  Get the hell out of CR right now and go back to America before the war breaks out and heed the warning
B.  Stay and fight to the death for Costa Rica and be trained by local army man who give you AK-47 to defend their motherland

Q2  If you had a DS or DD in the US Military, would you want them to go and fight for the Ukraines and take on Mother Russia? 

Yes or No.

Does anyone know anyone who has a dd or ds in the military?  If so, ask yourself if you would want to go fight for Ukraines?  I know nothing so I'm asking all you smart and educated folks at the forum.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Usual crap, throw some crap up against the wall to see if it will stick, then deflect with another bunch of crap thrown against a wall.
> 
> Substantiate nothing, support nothing, throw in a few insults - rinse and repeat.
> 
> You define you, and it ain't a pretty sight.


Answer my questions at least?  Where's the Jab talk?  No more mask or jab in our country and now all eyes on war in the Ukraine?  I know nothing......hahahahaha.  Ignore me quickly.  I want peace and I want all of us to love us first, before we go love some foreign country.  You want to help Kiev but not Americans?  That is telling sir right there.  You can;t just go to wag a dog and think nothing happen here.  Most on here only care about themsleves and you are one of them 100%.  I have a great friend who cares more about what he sees on CNN then in his own town dude.  Look at all the homeless in LA.  All these rich ruling class snobs are now wanting to help the poor people in Kiev.  Do you know what lies in Kiev?


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

And just so everyone knows, this will be Soccerhelpers only day to post so get me why you can.  Debate is great so let's debate the big topics.  Too much Taboo?  Telling someone early on a in a debate, "you know nothing" is someone who actually is projecting what he actually doesnt know himself, hahahahahaha!!!  Make love not war!!!


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## Hüsker Dü (Feb 26, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> And just so everyone knows, this will be Soccerhelpers only day to post so get me why you can.  Debate is great so let's debate the big topics.  Too much Taboo?  Telling someone early on a in a debate, "you know nothing" is someone who actually is projecting what he actually doesnt know himself, hahahahahaha!!!  Make love not war!!!


Dumbasses like you deserve only crickets. Bye bye


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Dumbasses like you deserve only crickets. Bye bye


I know I dumb.  What happen to all the jab talk dude?  Got anymore jabs man?  Crack pipe?  You men hate me and I am American 100%.  You will be revealed soon.  Do you know how many people in Kiev have been vaccinated by the way?  How many are anti vaxxers?  You care more about over there then here.  What does that say about you Husker?


----------



## watfly (Feb 26, 2022)

Tough to get a good understanding of exactly what's happening but it appears that Putin may have grossly underestimated the will of the Ukranians.  Zelensky certainly has a big set.  Hopefully Putin doesn't get desperate and start using far more serious weapons.


----------



## watfly (Feb 26, 2022)

'I need ammunition, not a ride': Zelenskyy is the hero his country needs as Russia invades
					

One thing is clear – President Zelenskyy has proven himself in a time of war.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## Brav520 (Feb 26, 2022)

Wow, sounds like club would have gone bust if he didn’t do this , and then maybe the British government could have been blamed










						Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich hands club to charitable foundation'
					

Roman Abramovich has tonight handed over Chelsea FC to the trustees of the club's charitable foundation.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Jar!23 (Feb 26, 2022)

Ukraine is putting up a fight unlike Afghanistan. How far will Putin go?  Now there are reports of children being killed.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

*Ukraine attack: Sean Penn says Putin made 'brutal mistake'*
*Actor adds blistering rebuke: 'If we allow Ukraine to fight alone, our soul as America is lost'*
"Today, Sean Penn is among those who support Ukraine in Ukraine," the statement added. "Our country is grateful to him for such a display of courage and honesty. This morning, the director visited the office of the president and attended a press briefing by Iryna Vereshchuk, adviser to the head of the office of the head of state and vice prime minister - minister for reintegration of the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine. He talked to journalists, to our military, saw how we defend our country.

"Sean Penn demonstrates the courage that many others, including Western politicians, lack. The more such people in our country now, true friends of Ukraine, who support the struggle for freedom, the sooner it will be possible to stop Russia's treacherous attack."

So Sean, I have a deal for you and all the Elitist and the so called ruling class we have in this country.  You send your kids first to save Ukraine and then seen all your friends and families friends to go take up arms for Ukraine.  You all got played again with fake pics.  First, you think HRC got the election stolen from Putin and t.  We saw the crap you put us through with one impeachment after another and so much hate and discord.  You guys hate the people you live with and want us to send our kids over to Ukraine to save the them.  Got Jab?  Then more lies, some cheating and spying and the the big heist with a scam of a plan.  You stole two years of my kids life but all of sudden you guys care about the kids of Kiev.  War sucks, but that's a war for Ukraine and Russia to fight out.  Putin say's it a "Special Military Operation."


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 26, 2022)

*From Catturd: Shit is getting real in Russia … just received this pic - I’m 63% sure it’s real. *


----------



## espola (Feb 26, 2022)

Balboa Park lit up in Ukranian national colors --


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## watfly (Feb 26, 2022)

espola said:


> Balboa Park lit up in Ukranian national colors --
> 
> View attachment 13019


SNL opened with the NY Ukranian choir,  I assume singing their national anthem.


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## espola (Feb 26, 2022)

Highway information sign in Ukraine reads "Russian invaders fuck you"


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## watfly (Feb 26, 2022)

espola said:


> Highway information sign in Ukraine reads "Russian invaders fuck you"
> 
> View attachment 13020


They seem to have resolve and a sense of humor.  Pretty remarkable.









						Ukrainian mocks Russian tank stuck without fuel on road to Kyiv
					

In the viral clip shared across social media, the Ukrainian driver rolls down his window before jokingly offering to tow the  troops back to Russia, prompting roars of laughter from all involved.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

*Zelenskyy seeking volunteers, calls for 'international' team to fight Russia*
*Zelenskyy is looking to form the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine*

I have put together a list of folks that I believe need to go over to Kiev right now and fight Russia.  The last 6 years it's been, Russia Russia Russia. It's time to put your mouth and writings to use.  Put up your own life or STFU!!!  Get your asses over to Kiev now and fight like real men!!!

1.  Espola and Sons
2.  Husker Du and Son
3.  Whatithink
4.  Golden Gate
5.  Jars
6.  Nancy Pelosi son
7.  John Kerry
8.  John Kerry son
9.  Mit
10.  Mit's son
11.  Hunter Biden
12.  Dr. Fraud
13.  Sean Penn ((already serving with his movie crew))
14.  George Soros son Alex
15.  Anyone over 18 with a last name of Rothschild
16.  Liz Cheney
17.  Adam Kissinger
18.  Adam Shift


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

This dude is also asking for help and would like any of you to sacrifice your son or daughter to come over and fight Russia.  Please help!!!









						That's Pretty Sus...
					

Ukraine's former president Petro Poroshenko delivers remarks on the current crisis and this happens. If you watch the full clip he tries to insert the magazine again without anyone noticing (as if that's going to work). Why? Who knows, but the fact …




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

No more war you guys.  Seriously, can we look for peace, honesty, truth and fair play instaed?  No more pay to play is going to be allowed you guys.  No more back room deals.  No more politics in games and sport!!!  No more treating women and children like shit.  No more lying, no more spying, no more cheating, no more snitching, no more jabs, no more division, no more mask, no more plandemics and no more back stabbers.  Stop watching the Tel A Vision.  The Vision the last two years was the fear of a gnarly virus that will kill you.  The Vision said you better get three jabs and booster or get fired or not allowed to participate in college sports or home NBA games in some cities. Then the Vision said you have to wear a mask.  Think you guys and use common sense, please help yourself get out of this matrix.  Think!!!  Today, the Vision is plastered all over the news, social media, Metaverse, online and just everyone is talking about Russia Russia Russia all over again and war and more war.  Pics of old ladies with hand chopped off and standing in a bombed building.  Think!  What is the Vision telling you?  "Pictures and movies for $1,000 please."  Remember WW2?  Well, that was a real war and it was the first real war to be filmed on set, live, so the Vision could send death and destruction on TV to pissed off parents and their young warriors watching at home in 1941.  Tom Hanks gave us all a real up close and personal look what the Day of 666 was like for our brave men that evil day.  50% of our bravest and some of the most bad ass men ever to wear a real uniform, were killed off, with their die hard DNA all for trying to run up a fucking cliff with German Machine Guns looking down on them.  Thanks Hanks for showing us all how evil and stupid that battle was.  06/06 at 6am.  Stop killing our kids in stupid wars unless you send your kid first, moo!!!

Listen to this song instead.  Close your eyes and think of peace, freedom, love and grace and more freedom.  I have no weapons except the weapon of my voice and I want 100% peace and I want everyone to leave everyone alone after all this is over.  We will have Utopia, but Pluto has arrived and when Pluto plays, it's about death & destruction of the old way and then all about Rebirth   Last time Pluto was here was July 4th, 1776!!!  It will take about wo years to finish all the D & D.  Go to the light......


----------



## espola (Feb 27, 2022)




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## espola (Feb 27, 2022)

Ukrainian brewery newest hit product --  "Putin is a dickhead" cocktails --


----------



## blam (Feb 27, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> No more war you guys. Seriously, can we look for peace, honesty, truth and fair play instaed?



One of the benefits of Covid was that Covid kept the politicians too busy to start any wars. We had a good 2 year of quietness with the news everyday about Covid. Now they have more time on their hands.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

blam said:


> One of the benefits of Covid was that Covid kept the politicians too busy to start any wars. We had a good 2 year of quietness with the news everyday about Covid. Now they have more time on their hands.


It's just never stops, the wars I mean.  At least t never started a war and only wanted our boys and girls home.  These Neocons make love and money to violence.  Sick people were in charge of the world, but not no more.  Game over, checkmate   I think 7 moves are left before their finished.  It's like two master chess players playing.  One player is a good person and the other master player is pure evil.  The good guy has checkmate and just needs to make sure no mistakes are made along the way.  The good guy is also God so he/she wins and it's off to a whole new way to play on earth.  Utopia is coming for those who want to stay back and play the right way, which is based on love and not fear.  These monsters that live with us live off fear and feed off torture.  It's pure hell!!!


----------



## espola (Feb 27, 2022)

FIFA on Russia's World Cup status: No ban yet
					

FIFA backed away from immediately expelling Russia from World Cup qualifying on Sunday but said it remained an option.




					www.espn.com


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

espola said:


> FIFA on Russia's World Cup status: No ban yet
> 
> 
> FIFA backed away from immediately expelling Russia from World Cup qualifying on Sunday but said it remained an option.
> ...


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Feb 27, 2022)

espola said:


> FIFA on Russia's World Cup status: No ban yet
> 
> 
> FIFA backed away from immediately expelling Russia from World Cup qualifying on Sunday but said it remained an option.
> ...


Sorry FIFA, you are either with us or against us  on this issue. FIFA should burn.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry FIFA, you are either with us or against us  on this issue. FIFA should burn.


Are you for all Americans or just the one's you agree with?  Who is "us" that you refer to?


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

Hey Husker and Espola, can you please talk with Joe and tell him to get back to the fake White House.  This is serious stuff.  Putin has raised the nuke level and Joe is taking a nap.  WTF is going on you guys?  

*Biden in Delaware as Putin raises nuclear alert status*
*Biden away from White House as Putin raises nuclear alert status*


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

*13 Snake Island border guards who defied Russia warship 'may be alive': report*
*Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had announced Thursday that the soldiers were killed*


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)




----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)




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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)




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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

Catturd says, "Why would a Ukrainian gas company give a crackhead, who knows absolutely nothing about the gas industry, a multi-million dollar salary job?  Why does George Soros love Ukraine so much?"


----------



## watfly (Feb 27, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Sorry FIFA, you are either with us or against us  on this issue. FIFA should burn.


I think that's something we can all agree on.  Can I throw the IOC in that dumpster fire?

I'm a big fan of the World Cup and even a bigger fan of the Olympics, but something has to change.


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## thirteenknots (Feb 27, 2022)

Countries of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) – Green Finance & Development Center (greenfdc.org)


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 27, 2022)

With the freeze on currency reserves, the withdrawal of air rights ands the removal of the lead banks from the swift system, the economic measures are beginning to have some effects. There is a run at the Russian banks underway and the ruble has lost 40% of its value.  Russia is burning billions a day and will have no choice but to print money triggering inflation as 60% of its reserves are on western currency. The rest is in Chinese r and gold.  The gold is problematic because of the blockade it can’t be sold in the leading market: Switzerland. And Switzerland is being pressured to join the European led economic blockade. The Chinese currency isn’t freely convertible so it isn’t much help in getting goods and materials outside of china

in a substantial escalation Belarus has now said nuclear weapons can be stationed on its territory and Ukraine is reporting that Belarus troops are now entering the conflict (with a target to sweep along the west towards Lviv to cut off western arms including old Soviet airplanes that have now been promised by the eastern NATO members). The Belarusian action will force Poland to raise its military readiness given the increased likelihood now of a border incident.

substantial escalations. This now ends in one of three ways: Putin wins in Ukraine and is able to force a settlement and a new Cold War is triggered. Putin loses and is overthrown by the leadership or the military as Russia descends into chaos. Putin who is already losing it makes a substantial escalation which potentially ends in a conflict with the west including carpet bombing Ukrainian cities, using wmds against Ukraine,an incident spins out of control with the west.

we are well beyond now a zero probability of this ending in a nuclear exchange.  The only saving grace is China will think twice before invading Taiwan now.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 27, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> With the freeze on currency reserves, the withdrawal of air rights ands the removal of the lead banks from the swift system, the economic measures are beginning to have some effects. There is a run at the Russian banks underway and the ruble has lost 40% of its value.  Russia is burning billions a day and will have no choice but to print money triggering inflation as 60% of its reserves are on western currency. The rest is in Chinese r and gold.  The gold is problematic because of the blockade it can’t be sold in the leading market: Switzerland. And Switzerland is being pressured to join the European led economic blockade. The Chinese currency isn’t freely convertible so it isn’t much help in getting goods and materials outside of china
> 
> in a substantial escalation Belarus has now said nuclear weapons can be stationed on its territory and Ukraine is reporting that Belarus troops are now entering the conflict (with a target to sweep along the west towards Lviv to cut off western arms including old Soviet airplanes that have now been promised by the eastern NATO members). The Belarusian action will force Poland to raise its military readiness given the increased likelihood now of a border incident.
> 
> ...


----------



## Soccerhelper (Feb 28, 2022)




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## Soccerhelper (Feb 28, 2022)




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## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

“Well, one use is for a righteous battle against oppression; the other is an infantile feet stomping against an inconvenience.”









						Dee Snider dissects twisted logic of anti-maskers vs. sovereignty defenders in Ukraine for use of ‘We’re Not Gonna Take It’ ｜ New York Daily News
					

Twisted Sister’s Dee Snider is busy untangling the logic employed by people who don’t understand why the rock band’s iconic hit “We’re Not Gonna Take It” would be sanctioned for use by the Ukrainian resistance as they fight off Russian aggression and not for use by anti-maskers. “People are...




					nordot.app


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## blam (Feb 28, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The only saving grace is China will think twice before invading Taiwan now.


I thought China is already in Taiwan? They have established their capital there since they fled the mainland and their capital is now Taipei. Am I missing something?


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## Grace T. (Feb 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498342341521854476


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## Grace T. (Feb 28, 2022)

espola said:


> “Well, one use is for a righteous battle against oppression; the other is an infantile feet stomping against an inconvenience.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, as long as we are translating COVID policies into Ukraine, you can slam this as another fine mess the elites got wrong.


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## whatithink (Feb 28, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Well, as long as we are translating COVID policies into Ukraine, you can slam this as another fine mess the elites got wrong.


I stopped when I realized that this is from nearly 7 years ago, plus the fact that its over an hour long. Are there cliff notes and is it still relevant 7 years later?


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## blam (Feb 28, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I stopped when I realized that this is from nearly 7 years ago, plus the fact that its over an hour long. Are there cliff notes and is it still relevant 7 years later?


Its a good view. Along with Putin speech if you want to see the view from the other side. 

*You live in a free country, and you owe it to those who fought and died for your freedom to spend the time to listen to the other side as well. *Many people only get their views from one side due to censorship.


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## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

blam said:


> Its a good view. Along with Putin speech if you want to see the view from the other side.
> 
> *You live in a free country, and you owe it to those who fought and died for your freedom to spend the time to listen to the other side as well. *Many people only get their views from one side due to censorship.


What do you like about Putin's speech?


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 28, 2022)

blam said:


> Its a good view. Along with Putin speech if you want to see the view from the other side.
> 
> *You live in a free country, and you owe it to those who fought and died for your freedom to spend the time to listen to the other side as well. *Many people only get their views from one side due to censorship.


Not free right now.  In order to keep your job, have to get jabbed fully.  That is not free.  I say no to jab and I'm ruined.  Yes, I did choose to be free but it comes with a price.  My best pal has blood clots because he was not free to choose at his work.


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## Soccerhelper (Feb 28, 2022)

Looks like my liberal pals up in the Seattle area are looking to move to Montana.  The Streets of Seattle are not safe any more, so he says.  Maybe whatithink can chime in with his fact checker.  The good cops left to other cop jobs across the country.  He tried as long as he could but its dangerous in broad day light.  One big homeless guy walked up to him the other day and just looked at him and my pal handed over all his cash.  The homeless man said, "God bless you."  It's like a street tax to be safe so to speak.


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## blam (Feb 28, 2022)

espola said:


> What do you like about Putin's speech?


He tells you why Russia is doing it. To stop NATO expansion. He gave the example of the mistake USSR made with Nazi Germany allowing it to expand to its doorstep and when WWII, USSR suffered greatly and the many lies given by the West through the years. He is not going to allow history to repeat itself. Why must NATO expand?  It is obviously to contain Russia. But why, why must Russia be contained?  Why is the foreign policy always be about containing another nation and maintaining military supremacy? The USA at one time also expanded Westward and fought wars against the Indians and Mexico. It is to prevent the Russians from doing the same thing? That seem absurd as nowadays, neo colonialism vs traditional colonialism works so much better and efficient.


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## whatithink (Feb 28, 2022)

blam said:


> He tells you why Russia is doing it. To stop NATO expansion. He gave the example of the mistake USSR made with Nazi Germany allowing it to expand to its doorstep and when WWII, USSR suffered greatly and the many lies given by the West through the years. He is not going to allow history to repeat itself. Why must NATO expand?  It is obviously to contain Russia. But why, why must Russia be contained?  Why is the foreign policy always be about containing another nation and maintaining military supremacy? The USA at one time also expanded Westward and fought wars against the Indians and Mexico. It is to prevent the Russians from doing the same thing? That seem absurd as nowadays, neo colonialism vs traditional colonialism works so much better and efficient.


That's some amount of waffle. Hitler & Stalin signed a pact, and invaded Poland from opposite sides, so the USSR "allowing" (allowing LMAO) Nazi Germany to expand is utter nonsense.

Putin's NATO expansion argument is also BS. Essentially, he is saying that Russia gets to dictate to any country that borders it whatever Russia wants. Russia gets a veto on what you can join or who you can join. What exactly gives Russia that "right"? Russia should get over its inferiority complex.

It's hilarious that Putin has managed to do the opposite of what he intended, I expect, in just a few short days. The EU buying arms, Germany supplying arms, Sweden supplying arms, Germany increasing defense spending, Switzerland getting involved in sanctions, Sweden and Finland making noises about joining Nato.

If he thought, in his obviously deluded & paranoid brain, that they were all against Russia (they weren't), well, they are now.

Putin would be better served asking himself why all these countries are eager to join Nato or the EU versus do whatever Russia wants. Maybe Nato & the EU are not the problem, maybe Russia (or its "my way or I invade you" approach) is.


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 28, 2022)

whatithink said:


> That's some amount of waffle. Hitler & Stalin signed a pact, and invaded Poland from opposite sides, so the USSR "allowing" (allowing LMAO) Nazi Germany to expand is utter nonsense.
> 
> Putin's NATO expansion argument is also BS. Essentially, he is saying that Russia gets to dictate to any country that borders it whatever Russia wants. Russia gets a veto on what you can join or who you can join. What exactly gives Russia that "right"? Russia should get over its inferiority complex.
> 
> ...


I think this is two simplistic.  There's been two explanations offered about Putin: one he's a meglomaniac that's especially gone off the deep end with COVID and has a fantasy he wants to realize about rebuilding the Russian empire.  Two he's a rationale actor behaving in the security interests of Russia and he could not tolerate having a democratic and EU/NATO friendly country so close to his border, given the long Russian history of repelling invaders, and given his own fragile position as a dictator.  

They are both probably true.  One is the emotional side of Putin and the other is the thinking side of Putin.  If the United States had joined with Russia to force the findlandization of the Ukraine and the secession of certain Russian backed areas, it's entirely possible that the current crisis could have been avoided.  It's also entirely possible that Putin (like Hitler after the Anschluss) would have been incentivized to look for more places to loot and the Baltics would be in his cross hairs two years from now.  It's impossible to determine when history turns on the actions of one man, who is deeply emotionally invested in this and not totally 100 percent sane.

But it is true that our elites entirely misread this coming (except for maybe Mitt Romney) and did everything possible to prod Russia along (whether Germany denuclearizing and approving the pipe line, the US reversing domestic energy independence, holding out Ukrainian NATO membership).  The elites (both R and D) are obsessed with building democracy around the world, which led us to the ill thought out venture to build a democratic Iraq and Afghanistan.


----------



## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I think this is two simplistic.  There's been two explanations offered about Putin: one he's a meglomaniac that's especially gone off the deep end with COVID and has a fantasy he wants to realize about rebuilding the Russian empire.  Two he's a rationale actor behaving in the security interests of Russia and he could not tolerate having a democratic and EU/NATO friendly country so close to his border, given the long Russian history of repelling invaders, and given his own fragile position as a dictator.
> 
> They are both probably true.  One is the emotional side of Putin and the other is the thinking side of Putin.  If the United States had joined with Russia to force the findlandization of the Ukraine and the secession of certain Russian backed areas, it's entirely possible that the current crisis could have been avoided.  It's also entirely possible that Putin (like Hitler after the Anschluss) would have been incentivized to look for more places to loot and the Baltics would be in his cross hairs two years from now.  It's impossible to determine when history turns on the actions of one man, who is deeply emotionally invested in this and not totally 100 percent sane.
> 
> But it is true that our elites entirely misread this coming (except for maybe Mitt Romney) and did everything possible to prod Russia along (whether Germany denuclearizing and approving the pipe line, the US reversing domestic energy independence, holding out Ukrainian NATO membership).  The elites (both R and D) are obsessed with building democracy around the world, which led us to the ill thought out venture to build a democratic Iraq and Afghanistan.


Slow down and think about what you mean before you post, or you will end up with more drivel like this.


----------



## whatithink (Feb 28, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I think this is two simplistic.  There's been two explanations offered about Putin: one he's a meglomaniac that's especially gone off the deep end with COVID and has a fantasy he wants to realize about rebuilding the Russian empire.  Two he's a rationale actor behaving in the security interests of Russia and he could not tolerate having a democratic and EU/NATO friendly country so close to his border, given the long Russian history of repelling invaders, and given his own fragile position as a dictator.
> 
> They are both probably true.  One is the emotional side of Putin and the other is the thinking side of Putin.  If the United States had joined with Russia to force the findlandization of the Ukraine and the secession of certain Russian backed areas, it's entirely possible that the current crisis could have been avoided.  It's also entirely possible that Putin (like Hitler after the Anschluss) would have been incentivized to look for more places to loot and the Baltics would be in his cross hairs two years from now.  It's impossible to determine when history turns on the actions of one man, who is deeply emotionally invested in this and not totally 100 percent sane.
> 
> But it is true that our elites entirely misread this coming (except for maybe Mitt Romney) and did everything possible to prod Russia along (whether Germany denuclearizing and approving the pipe line, the US reversing domestic energy independence, holding out Ukrainian NATO membership).  The elites (both R and D) are obsessed with building democracy around the world, which led us to the ill thought out venture to build a democratic Iraq and Afghanistan.


There are already Nato countries on Russia's borders. Russia's problem is that they want to tell countries what to do, but those countries want to do what's in their long term economic interest. There's a reason countries want to join the EU because it makes them more prosperous longer term. Being Russia's beetch doesn't. Nato brings security. The Eastern European countries know what its like to be under the Russian hammer and know what happens if you don't tow the line with what has happened in Georgia, then Crimea, now Ukraine - not to mention Chechnya. There is nothing rational about Putin's approach. There has been nothing rational about his approach. He has been appeased for far too long. Romney was on the money.

When Switzerland is supporting and imposing sanctions and Sweden/Finland are openly talking about Nato membership and Germany is ramping up its military, you know that the Europeans are recognizing a generational threat.

WRT the approach to Russia, i.e. engaging with and embracing it into the capitalist world ... I don't see that as being fundamentally wrong. The line in the sand should have been with Georgia though, back in 2008. The west was distracted with an economic meltdown though.

This has started a European arms race, and those don't end well in Europe. Even if Putin backs down - which would seem unrealistic - that genie will not be going back in the bottle.


----------



## blam (Feb 28, 2022)

whatithink said:


> That's some amount of waffle. Hitler & Stalin signed a pact, and invaded Poland from opposite sides, so the USSR "allowing" (allowing LMAO) Nazi Germany to expand is utter nonsense.




If you would like to counter his argument, please quote his speech directly.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24  I am a novice at the Russian Ukrainian conflict. I am a person who is trying to exercise my freedom of living in a free country by ensuring that I get the story from boths sides.

The relevant passage is
_Of course, this situation begs a question: what next, what are we to expect? If history is any guide, we know that in 1940 and early 1941 the Soviet Union went to great lengths to prevent war or at least delay its outbreak. To this end, the USSR sought not to provoke the potential aggressor until the very end by refraining or postponing the most urgent and obvious preparations it had to make to defend itself from an imminent attack. When it finally acted, it was too late.

As a result, the country was not prepared to counter the invasion by Nazi Germany, which attacked our Motherland on June 22, 1941, without declaring war. The country stopped the enemy and went on to defeat it, but this came at a tremendous cost. _



whatithink said:


> Putin's NATO expansion argument is also BS.


This is absolutely no BS. NATO has only one aim left in Europe and that is eventual containment of Rusia. It may not happen in the next 10 years, but it will happen in the next 100. Maybe if there is a Orange revolution in Moscow or something to that effect that installs a pro Western government in Moscow then it will not happen. 

Is this not like the Cuban Missile Crisis? Was the US not allowing Cuba to have missiles that Russia _"USA gets to dictate to any country that borders it whatever Russia USA wants. Russia USA gets a veto on what you can join have or who you can join have. What exactly gives Russia USA that "right"? Russia USA should get over its inferiority complex. " _<-------------- Your quote mostly.


----------



## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

blam said:


> If you would like to counter his argument, please quote his speech directly.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24  I am a novice at the Russian Ukrainian conflict. I am a person who is trying to exercise my freedom of living in a free country by ensuring that I get the story from boths sides.
> 
> The relevant passage is
> _Of course, this situation begs a question: what next, what are we to expect? If history is any guide, we know that in 1940 and early 1941 the Soviet Union went to great lengths to prevent war or at least delay its outbreak. To this end, the USSR sought not to provoke the potential aggressor until the very end by refraining or postponing the most urgent and obvious preparations it had to make to defend itself from an imminent attack. When it finally acted, it was too late.
> ...


At one time you claimed to be a leftist progressive.  Lately you have been posting in support of the world's biggest fascists.

Are you just looking for attention?


----------



## Grace T. (Feb 28, 2022)

whatithink said:


> There are already Nato countries on Russia's borders. Russia's problem is that they want to tell countries what to do, but those countries want to do what's in their long term economic interest. There's a reason countries want to join the EU because it makes them more prosperous longer term. Being Russia's beetch doesn't. Nato brings security. The Eastern European countries know what its like to be under the Russian hammer and know what happens if you don't tow the line with what has happened in Georgia, then Crimea, now Ukraine - not to mention Chechnya. There is nothing rational about Putin's approach. There has been nothing rational about his approach. He has been appeased for far too long. Romney was on the money.
> 
> When Switzerland is supporting and imposing sanctions and Sweden/Finland are openly talking about Nato membership and Germany is ramping up its military, you know that the Europeans are recognizing a generational threat.
> 
> ...


I was there at the very beginning after the fall of the ussr sitting in a dorm room at Moscow state university with the other research assistants and translators (all Ivy League college and grad students) thinking they were doing gods work by transforming Russia into a democracy. I still remember the naive and hopelessly romantic views. One guy argued we had to make sure the Russians in this new progressive utopia adopted gay marriage with a marriage clause in their constitution (how’d that go?  Russia is one of the most anti gay places on earth). Another that the one thing we had to preserve was their government run health care (having gone to a soviet clinic on a student trip in Pskov with a classmate when he broke his arm playing football that one made me choke).   One guy who came from my college insisted that the most important thing was that the Russians “never get trickle down economics”…this guy was on the Econ privatization team which should have been focused on avoiding the looting of state run enterprises by the well connected

my professor nailed it…on the con law committee warned them they should limit the president to two terms not two consecutive terms and predicted what Putin would later do. But she was an African American woman and being as racists as they are hated her for that so they ignored her and listened to the Germans instead.

This is all ultimately our own leaderships fault. In their arrogance like 2008 and covid before it, they botched it


----------



## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I was there at the very beginning after the fall of the ussr sitting in a dorm room at Moscow state university with the other research assistants and translators (all Ivy League college and grad students) thinking they were doing gods work by transforming Russia into a democracy. I still remember the naive and hopelessly romantic views. One guy argued we had to make sure the Russians in this new progressive utopia adopted gay marriage with a marriage clause in their constitution (how’d that go?  Russia is one of the most anti gay places on earth). Another that the one thing we had to preserve was their government run health care (having gone to a soviet clinic on a student trip in Pskov with a classmate when he broke his arm playing football that one made me choke).   One guy who came from my college insisted that the most important thing was that the Russians “never get trickle down economics”…this guy was on the Econ privatization team which should have been focused on avoiding the looting of state run enterprises by the well connected
> 
> my professor nailed it…on the con law committee warned them they should limit the president to two terms not two consecutive terms and predicted what Putin would later do. But she was an African American woman and being as racists as they are hated her for that so they ignored her and listened to the Germans instead.
> 
> This is all ultimately our own leaderships fault. In their arrogance like 2008 and covid before it, they botched it


You're talking to yourself.


----------



## espola (Feb 28, 2022)

Now that's a freedom convoy -- trucks full of military supplies crossing from Poland into Ukraine --


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> At one time you claimed to be a leftist progressive.  Latley you have been posting in support of the world's biggest fascists.
> 
> Are you just looking for attention?


Would quoting from Chomsky make me a progresive again?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 1, 2022)

People are dying, for what?


----------



## whatithink (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I was there at the very beginning after the fall of the ussr sitting in a dorm room at Moscow state university with the other research assistants and translators (all Ivy League college and grad students) thinking they were doing gods work by transforming Russia into a democracy. I still remember the naive and hopelessly romantic views. One guy argued we had to make sure the Russians in this new progressive utopia adopted gay marriage with a marriage clause in their constitution (how’d that go?  Russia is one of the most anti gay places on earth). Another that the one thing we had to preserve was their government run health care (having gone to a soviet clinic on a student trip in Pskov with a classmate when he broke his arm playing football that one made me choke).   One guy who came from my college insisted that the most important thing was that the Russians “never get trickle down economics”…this guy was on the Econ privatization team which should have been focused on avoiding the looting of state run enterprises by the well connected
> 
> my professor nailed it…on the con law committee warned them they should limit the president to two terms not two consecutive terms and predicted what Putin would later do. But she was an African American woman and being as racists as they are hated her for that so they ignored her and listened to the Germans instead.
> 
> This is all ultimately our own leaderships fault. In their arrogance like 2008 and covid before it, they botched it


So its our fault that Russia did its own thing and that Putin got control. Or is it our fault that a bunch of students and academics didn't succeed in building a utopia in Russia. I'm genuinely confused as to how Russia evolving to this is our fault.

I can get some fault for the lack of action against Russia for atrocities in Chechnya or the lack of sanctions over Georgia or Crimea. Sure, it could be the west's fault for allowing our financial systems to be used to funnel hundreds of billions out of Russia. 

I don't buy into self flagellation because Putin's losing the plot. This isn't our fault, its on Putin, 100%.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> If you would like to counter his argument, please quote his speech directly.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24  I am a novice at the Russian Ukrainian conflict. I am a person who is trying to exercise my freedom of living in a free country by ensuring that I get the story from boths sides.
> 
> The relevant passage is
> _Of course, this situation begs a question: what next, what are we to expect? If history is any guide, we know that in 1940 and early 1941 the Soviet Union went to great lengths to prevent war or at least delay its outbreak. To this end, the USSR sought not to provoke the potential aggressor until the very end by refraining or postponing the most urgent and obvious preparations it had to make to defend itself from an imminent attack. When it finally acted, it was too late.
> ...


lmao, you're telling me how to counter an argument - you're losing the run of yourself. Am I "arguing" with Putin through you or something? Seek help.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> You're talking to yourself.


Oh Magoo you’ve done it again!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> So its our fault that Russia did its own thing and that Putin got control. Or is it our fault that a bunch of students and academics didn't succeed in building a utopia in Russia. I'm genuinely confused as to how Russia evolving to this is our fault.
> 
> I can get some fault for the lack of action against Russia for atrocities in Chechnya or the lack of sanctions over Georgia or Crimea. Sure, it could be the west's fault for allowing our financial systems to be used to funnel hundreds of billions out of Russia.
> 
> I don't buy into self flagellation because Putin's losing the plot. This isn't our fault, its on Putin, 100%.


The west never understood Russia. The same way we thought we could build democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Our elites created these circumstances.  You have it on record when Romney (who btw is one of my least favorite politicians but when you are right you are right) warned about this and obama and the media just dumped on him.  My only point is they got it wrong (yet again) the same way they missed 2008 or the same way they botched the covid response. 

sure Putin is culpable. Sure you can blame him. For that matter you can go ahead and blame the Russian soldiers for not deserting or the Russian people for not rising up. Doesn’t mean this isn’t a f up for our leadership (whether d or r, European or American). For the record, I think Biden has done a pretty good job of managing things post war so far…my only complaint is he seems to be leading from behind and the Europeans have been much more proactive.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> lmao, you're telling me how to counter an argument - you're losing the run of yourself. Am I "arguing" with Putin through you or something? Seek help.


Just say, "bye bye."  Blam is nailing it and so it Grace T.  You guys went from Jab+booster+mask or your fired, to, "Russia Russia Russia."  Espola is having flashbacks from the fear of hiding under his desk as kid in the 50s.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

You think these guys were doing humanitarian work in the Ukraine?  Crack pipe on every hole and all the booze and girls you want.  Look at those four men, look again and what do you see?  Be honest with yourself.  Yet it was t that was peeing on models in Moscow?  You guys are the biggest liars ever and now we will all soon find out wtf they are hiding and protecting in the Ukraine.  I do pray for peace but something is not right again.  I said this two years ago when they said, "15 days only to flat the made up curve and no mask, I promise."  Add some summer riots and then lay the hammer down for one last effort and force the jab or get fired." Look folks, the two master chess players already know who has checkmate.  It's game over.  Light vs Dark and the Light wins.  Checkmate!!!  No more fear I swear.  If you stop watching Tel A Vision so your not hypnotized, you too can live a free life on earth.  You MUST love first and not live in fear.  For example, when you wake up you go within and find the third eye.  The third eye is pure light and love and no one can open the third eye without love.  Money cannnot buy you into the third eye either.  No sneaking in or being a poser for God and the Christ like George Soros did when he was a kid.  That has to be the worse thing a man can do.  Act like a follower of Yeshua and then do evil.  Or, go to church camp to trick the girls.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

EU is working it hard to add Ukraine to the family.  Interesting way to play war with our children.  This is all duralism folks.  Get a good taste of this war talk because they want war bad.  It was their only move.  Why the masks?


----------



## whatithink (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The west never understood Russia. The same way we thought we could build democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Our elites created these circumstances.  You have it on record when Romney (who btw is one of my least favorite politicians but when you are right you are right) warned about this and obama and the media just dumped on him.  My only point is they got it wrong (yet again) the same way they missed 2008 or the same way they botched the covid response.
> 
> sure Putin is culpable. Sure you can blame him. For that matter you can go ahead and blame the Russian soldiers for not deserting or the Russian people for not rising up. Doesn’t mean this isn’t a f up for our leadership (whether d or r, European or American). For the record, I think Biden has done a pretty good job of managing things post war so far…my only complaint is he seems to be leading from behind and the Europeans have been much more proactive.


You can't compare Russia, Afghanistan & Iraq. 

You're talking like we had a choice for Russia and choose wrong. It was never the west's choice. The goal was for Russia to become a capitalist democratic country and the strategy was to engage on those terms, financially, economically, and diplomatically. Russia took that and did its own thing. There's no history of democracy in Russia, it went from 400 years of Tsarist rule to 70 odd years of Communist autocratic rule to a few years of mayhem and then Putin. 2008 is probably when the west should have come down hard on Putin. The Russian military was weak, nukes aside, and they had no financial reserves to speak of. The financial crash put paid to that. We've had red flags since with Crimea, but did nothing of real substance.

You can see why Putin probably thought that invading the Ukraine will be a little painful economically for a year or so and then back to normal. I expect he's a little stunned at the shit storm that he has initiated and the uniform response from Europe in particular. 

One would hope that lessons can be learned from this, but the basic premise of the west's approach is not flawed.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> You can't compare Russia, Afghanistan & Iraq.
> 
> You're talking like we had a choice for Russia and choose wrong. It was never the west's choice. The goal was for Russia to become a capitalist democratic country and the strategy was to engage on those terms, financially, economically, and diplomatically. Russia took that and did its own thing. There's no history of democracy in Russia, it went from 400 years of Tsarist rule to 70 odd years of Communist autocratic rule to a few years of mayhem and then Putin. 2008 is probably when the west should have come down hard on Putin. The Russian military was weak, nukes aside, and they had no financial reserves to speak of. The financial crash put paid to that. We've had red flags since with Crimea, but did nothing of real substance.
> 
> ...


Wrong wrong and more wrong.  Listen up all of you.  They ((the higher ups who are assigned countries)) want all of us to fight and make war with each other on the planet.  Hello, anyone home in your brain today?  They want you to fight over all the "isms" and which ism is the best ism.  Good luck fighting.  I will sit over here and watch everyone looking for war or peace.  Peace through strength, ya right.  The real shit storm is the lying, spying and cheating about the jab, boosters with masks on all day and then stealing two years of peoples life.  I'm hearing bio labs in Ukraine?


----------



## espola (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The west never understood Russia. The same way we thought we could build democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Our elites created these circumstances.  You have it on record when Romney (who btw is one of my least favorite politicians but when you are right you are right) warned about this and obama and the media just dumped on him.  My only point is they got it wrong (yet again) the same way they missed 2008 or the same way they botched the covid response.
> 
> sure Putin is culpable. Sure you can blame him. For that matter you can go ahead and blame the Russian soldiers for not deserting or the Russian people for not rising up. Doesn’t mean this isn’t a f up for our leadership (whether d or r, European or American). For the record, I think Biden has done a pretty good job of managing things post war so far…my only complaint is he seems to be leading from behind and the Europeans have been much more proactive.


No one knows what you are talking about.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> No one knows what you are talking about.


Liar, I do and I am someone, regardless if you ignore me and think nothing of me.  Tried to kill me before I was born and here I am.  I love the smell of fresh air in the morning.  Birds are singing so happily and joyfully.  What did you smell this morning Espola?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> No one knows what you are talking about.


No just you…you never know what anyone is talking about


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> You can't compare Russia, Afghanistan & Iraq.
> 
> You're talking like we had a choice for Russia and choose wrong. It was never the west's choice. The goal was for Russia to become a capitalist democratic country and the strategy was to engage on those terms, financially, economically, and diplomatically. Russia took that and did its own thing. There's no history of democracy in Russia, it went from 400 years of Tsarist rule to 70 odd years of Communist autocratic rule to a few years of mayhem and then Putin. 2008 is probably when the west should have come down hard on Putin. The Russian military was weak, nukes aside, and they had no financial reserves to speak of. The financial crash put paid to that. We've had red flags since with Crimea, but did nothing of real substance.
> 
> ...


You and I agree then about 2008 (where we disagree is I think we’ve botched it all the way back through the bush and Clinton years…all the way back to the reconstruction of Russia).

I can’t remember who ran for president then.  Do you?  Hmmm…can’t be the same guy who slammed Romney for warning About Russia (and again I say this as someone who hates Romney and was an Obama fan girl).


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> lmao, you're telling me how to counter an argument - you're losing the run of yourself. Am I "arguing" with Putin through you or something? Seek help.


Oh no...I am not arguing with you, maybe you are. I am not trying to prove to be the smartest guy in the room or the guy with the furthest piss. So its better that you quote from Putin directly instead of my pharaphrase.

From the beginning I had said I know little about this region of the world. 

I am just trying to make sure that I am getting the story from both sides as a responsible American who have access to freedom of the press.

From what I have gathered, one side is pretending that this conflict just started 2 weeks ago and that a sovereign nation like Ukraine can do whatever it chooses to do. To the other side, this is like Cuban Crisis 2.0 that has brewed for at least 20 years with the ever expanding NATO.

I have to say, I tend to agree with JFK. We should never allow the Soviets to put their missiles on Cuba. I recalled as a kid, I did asked, why could an independent and soveriegn nation  like Cuba not be allowed to put missiles that aims at the USA? What international law would that violate? Did JFK do the right thing?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> Oh no...I am not arguing with you, maybe you are. I am not trying to prove to be the smartest guy in the room or the guy with the furthest piss. So its better that you quote from Putin directly instead of my pharaphrase.
> 
> From the beginning I had said I know little about this region of the world.
> 
> ...


The US also famously had missiles in Turkey which also borders the Soviet Union and were removed as part of the quid pro quo.  The other thing is that became all moot a few years later with the advent of SSBNs.

It's sort of the same way with selfdetermination.  We were all for it for the peoples of the Austro Hungarian Empire, but not so much for it for the people of Hawaii.   Not so much for it with Nazi Germany.  All for it with India, Israel and decolonization.  Then all for it with German unification and the dissolution of the Soviet Union.  Not so much for it with Russians living in Ukraine or Kurds in Iraq.  Then of course there's the south in our own civil war (but yeah, that gets, completely justifiably, waived away with the fact that the south kept a race in slavery with violence and the south wasn't really a unique people group separate from the rest of America)


----------



## watfly (Mar 1, 2022)

Russian policy (or maybe Putin policy is more accurate) is way outside my league.  It seems to me that the West's policies have been reactive, and not proactive, in fear of poking the bear.  Plus it seems financial interests and energy policies that created vulnerabilities have made the West more deferential to Russia, than may have been warranted  Like I said I'm out of my league just my layman's opinion.

It does seem that all credit goes to Ukraine.  I don't think without their resolve that the West steps up and offers the weapons.  It was only after a couple of days of Ukraine resistance that the West stepped up.  Biden seemed more interested in getting Zelensky out of there than to offer defensive help.  Like Zelensky said he doesn't need a ride, he needs bullets...and now probably everyday staples.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> *Russian policy (or maybe Putin policy is more accurate) is way outside my league.  *I
> *It does seem that all credit goes to Ukraine.*


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

RT and all Russian news censored in EU. Apparently, freedom of the press only allowed if it is benign. In times where it actually mattered, it gets censored and banned just like in so called authoritative regimes.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> Russian policy (or maybe Putin policy is more accurate) is way outside my league.  It seems to me that the West's policies have been reactive, and not proactive, in fear of poking the bear.  Plus it seems financial interests and energy policies that created vulnerabilities have made the West more deferential to Russia, than may have been warranted  Like I said I'm out of my league just my layman's opinion.
> 
> It does seem that all credit goes to Ukraine.  I don't think without their resolve that the West steps up and offers the weapons.  It was only after a couple of days of Ukraine resistance that the West stepped up.  Biden seemed more interested in getting Zelensky out of there than to offer defensive help.  Like Zelensky said he doesn't need a ride, he needs bullets...and now probably everyday staples.


The open question is whether the forced findlandization of Ukraine and granting the Russian speaking territories secession would have avoided this.  One group argues no because Putin is a meglomaniac and this would have just appeased him (same as Hitler) and he would be demanding the Baltics next (thanks to our weakness) for which we would definitely have to fight.  This group especially believes in spreading democracy around the world and that the Ukrainians have an inherent right to make their own decision to tilt west.  The other group, the real politiks, say that Ukraine could either have been findlandized similar to Austria or Finland in the cold war therefore avoiding a great power contest for control of Ukraine...NATO would have left off NATO and EU membership, Russia would give up on creating a puppet state there.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The open question is whether the forced findlandization of Ukraine and granting the Russian speaking territories secession would have avoided this.  One group argues no because Putin is a meglomaniac and this would have just appeased him (same as Hitler) and he would be demanding the Baltics next (thanks to our weakness) for which we would definitely have to fight.  This group especially believes in spreading democracy around the world and that the Ukrainians have an inherent right to make their own decision to tilt west.  The other group, the real politiks, say that Ukraine could either have been findlandized similar to Austria or Finland in the cold war therefore avoiding a great power contest for control of Ukraine...NATO would have left off NATO and EU membership, Russia would give up on creating a puppet state there.


Something or someone is in Ukraine.  I know already but I wont share because you guys would laugh at me again.  Keep playing Geo Politics Grace T.  Have you ever studied The Looking Glass?


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> Something or someone is in Ukraine.  I know already but I wont share because you guys would laugh at me again.  Keep playing Geo Politics Grace T.  Have you ever studied The Looking Glass?


Won't laugh at you but please waive to me on your way up if the rapture happens crush.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Fox Headline:  Russia is out of food and morale is at all time low.  The Ghost of Kiev and the 17 year old girl sniper are now heros.  Hillary say's Putin must be stopped at all cost.  John Kerry says the same things and Mit is telling everyone he is smarter then Obama and if he were President, Putin would have never tried this move.  Liz Cheney is ready to send our boys and girls over to Ukraine to fight Russia.  Zelensky is holding the line until back up comes in a ditch.  I have so much popcorn for tonight SOTU Speech.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Won't laugh at you but please waive to me on your way up if the rapture happens crush.


I will reach out my hand to grab you Grace T


----------



## whatithink (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> You and I agree then about 2008 (where we disagree is I think we’ve botched it all the way back through the bush and Clinton years…all the way back to the reconstruction of Russia).
> 
> I can’t remember who ran for president then.  Do you?  Hmmm…can’t be the same guy who slammed Romney for warning About Russia (and again I say this as someone who hates Romney and was an Obama fan girl).


TBH, hindsight is easy, but context should always be accounted for. The 90s were all about "we'd won the cold war", people looking for the "peace dividend", the USSR breaking up, and the newly independent countries opening to the west (commercially) - not to mention the collapse of the iron curtain, Germany's focus on reunification, Balkan conflicts in the 90s, new countries in Eastern Europe. There was no play book. It wasn't just Russia; it was WAY more complicated than that.

Yeltsin was also the president and seen as friendly to the west (albeit also thought to be drunk a lot). Putin's ascendency was just before 9/11, and a pivot in the west towards the "war on terror" which became all consuming. Georgia in 2008 is about right to me given the wider context, and yes Romney was ridiculed for his viewpoint, which hasn't aged well for everyone who did that, but it wasn't mainstream thought.

There's also the premise that "we" could have done things differently, as if we could have controlled what happened in Russia. I think that's a bad premise. It's all water under the bridge in any case.


----------



## espola (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The open question is whether the forced findlandization of Ukraine and granting the Russian speaking territories secession would have avoided this.  One group argues no because Putin is a meglomaniac and this would have just appeased him (same as Hitler) and he would be demanding the Baltics next (thanks to our weakness) for which we would definitely have to fight.  This group especially believes in spreading democracy around the world and that the Ukrainians have an inherent right to make their own decision to tilt west.  The other group, the real politiks, say that Ukraine could either have been findlandized similar to Austria or Finland in the cold war therefore avoiding a great power contest for control of Ukraine...NATO would have left off NATO and EU membership, Russia would give up on creating a puppet state there.


It's "finlandization" and "megalomaniac".


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> It's "finlandization" and "megalomaniac".


ok...you wanna brownie point or will a gold star suffice,?


----------



## espola (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> ok...you wanna brownie point or will a gold star suffice,?


The first time I thought you were just speed-typing, but now I realize you simply don't know.

The best moment of the Olympics for me was when Finland beat the Russians in the hockey final.  I had business relationships with 2 different Finnish companies during my career.  They hate the Russians the same way the Ukrainians will, forever.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> The first time I thought you were just speed-typing, but now I realize you simply don't know.
> 
> The best moment of the Olympics for me was when Finland beat the Russians in the hockey final.  I had business relationships with 2 different Finnish companies during my career.  They hate the Russians the same way the Ukrainians will, forever.


All you do is hate.  Go play war with your kids and not my kid.  
*Mitch McConnell: We need to give Ukrainians everything ((our kids blood Mitch?)) they need as rapidly as possible*


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Brav520 (Mar 1, 2022)

This is a good explanation of what is going on by someone in a very high level position in the Biden administration 

“Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine, so basically that’s wrong...”


----------



## Brav520 (Mar 1, 2022)

This would not be a smart move by Putin, let’s hope this is not true 









						U.S. officials fear Putin's government may arrest Americans in Russia
					

National security officials have discussed concerns that Americans doing business in Russia — such as employees of U.S. companies — will be targeted if they comply with sanctions.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> This would not be a smart move by Putin, let’s hope this is not true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's going to get ugly because when two fight, no one is right.  This has been going on since the days when Cain killed his bro Abel.  We have been fighting ever since.  It's a trip how fast we went from Covid to Ukraine.  HRC got most of her back room deals from Ukraine.  Hunter Biden did most of his business dealings over there and the "Big Guy" had his hands in lots of deals.  We also have one Senator after another getting their kids and grand kids killer jobs over there in the Ukraine for just saying hi.  Easy $1,000,000.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> This would not be a smart move by Putin, let’s hope this is not true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno.  The US govt has already been urging Americans to leave.  I know several law firms and corps that have told their western citizen employees to get out no later than the end of the week.  Those business will be largely operate now by local staff, which will be put between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I dunno.  The US govt has already been urging Americans to leave.  I know several law firms and corps that have told their western citizen employees to get out no later than the end of the week.  Those business will be largely operate now by local staff, which will be put between a rock and a hard place.


Some serious political curve balls, right?  This Putin guy and his people are very interesting group of folks.  I have a very good friend whose parents are from Moscow and then my Kiev pal.  They both love each other and are tripping out with Fox and CNN and all the division.  No more Corona talk, how about that Grace T?  Does that scratch your head just a little?  Please answer me this Q.  Why did HRC and the Bidens do all that back room deals in the Ukraine?  Obama did a regime change 8 years ago, no?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

espola said:


> The first time I thought you were just speed-typing, but now I realize you simply don't know.
> 
> The best moment of the Olympics for me was when Finland beat the Russians in the hockey final.  I had business relationships with 2 different Finnish companies during my career.  They hate the Russians the same way the Ukrainians will, forever.


yawn....you've been reduced to the language police

My first experience with Finland was crossing the border by train from now sk Petersburg to Helsinki and arriving early afternoon after 2 months in the Soviet Union.  We all rushed over to the pizza hut (which when i tell the kids the story they always say why....how disgusting...sorry after 2 months of that food that pizza was the best ever) and scrapet together what cash we gad left.  The Finnish waitress laughed as we all tore into the pizza and looked so haggard (all of us had come down with a bad flu while traveling in Russia, some of us had temporarily landed in jail for joining in the protests, and two of us had landed in Soviet hospitals).  When we told her where we had been she laughed and wondered why we crazies would ever do such a thing and hoped we had learned our lessons.  She felt sorry for us that we could afford such few pizzas for the group (several of our motley crew having been hoodwinked out of their cash by scammers) that she bought us an extra one so we could have a second slice each.


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> This would not be a smart move by Putin, let’s hope this is not true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The US had done a similar thing and requested Canada to arrest a Huawei executive on a completely fabricated lie. So it would not be surprising if this happens.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> yawn....you've been reduced to the language police
> 
> My first experience with Finland was crossing the border by train from now sk Petersburg to Helsinki and arriving early afternoon after 2 months in the Soviet Union.  We all rushed over to the pizza hut (which when i tell the kids the story they always say why....how disgusting...sorry after 2 months of that food that pizza was the best ever) and scrapet together what cash we gad left.  The Finnish waitress laughed as we all tore into the pizza and looked so haggard (all of us had come down with a bad flu while traveling in Russia, some of us had temporarily landed in jail for joining in the protests, and two of us had landed in Soviet hospitals).  When we told her where we had been she laughed and wondered why we crazies would ever do such a thing and hoped we had learned our lessons.  She felt sorry for us that we could afford such few pizzas for the group (several of our motley crew having been hoodwinked out of their cash by scammers) that she bought us an extra one so we could have a second slice each.


Thanks for sharing.  That is intense.


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

One area which I have not heard much about from the mainstream media is the rise of the far right in Ukraine. There is a documentary called Ukraine on Fire on tubi. Check it out.


----------



## Brav520 (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> The US had done a similar thing and requested Canada to arrest a Huawei executive on a completely fabricated lie. So it would not be surprising if this happens.


im worried about the escalation

I don’t want 2 nuclear powers going to War


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> im worried about the escalation
> 
> I don’t want 2 nuclear powers going to War


It will go down to the wire and will get super scary.  All this means is we will ALL shit our pants bro.  It has to be this way because men like to fight for power and will do whatever they can to keep it, especially steal, cheat, spy and lie on their competitor.  They will use little kids as pawns as well.  Nasty men!!!!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> im worried about the escalation
> 
> I don’t want 2 nuclear powers going to War


The more likely escalation is there's an incident in the transfer of weapons from a NATO ally that kills NATO military personnel or worse civilians.  Article five is triggered and the US has no choice but to respond.  It's why it looks like the offer to send old Soviet airplanes to Ukraine is scrapped...the nations couldn't figure out a way to get the planes there through neutral territory (they were working on a convoluted scheme of the Balkans to Israel to Georgia), the Ukrainians offered to fly them out of European airbases but the European nations (despite some pressure from the EU) said no one by one until Poland was the last and forced to say no.

The other possible escalation is Russian warships on the B&D straits and turkey coming into conflict there which will also trigger article five despite turkey having poor relations right now with the US, EU, and Russia.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> This is a good explanation of what is going on by someone in a very high level position in the Biden administration
> 
> “Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine, so basically that’s wrong...”


Must have been trying to explain it to an oan reporter, or some other bubble troll from a likeminded “news” agency.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> One area which I have not heard much about from the mainstream media is the rise of the far right in Ukraine. There is a documentary called Ukraine on Fire on tubi. Check it out.


Yeah, no, but nice try though!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

I was watching a report on Channel 4 out of france.  The oligarchs are upset at Putin.  It's unclear how much power they have to force his hand but if anyone does, they do.  Nothing hurts more than making rich people poorer and on top of that taking away their ability to vacation in the Med away from the Russian winter.  Plus the EU is now talking about direct seizure of their property.

One possible "compromise" they are floating is the partition of the Ukraine since the Russian military isn't looking forward to a prolonged occupation of the hostile western portion of the country.  I doubt that will fly with the Ukrainians.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> RT and all Russian news censored in EU. Apparently, freedom of the press only allowed if it is benign. In times where it actually mattered, it gets censored and banned just like in so called authoritative regimes.


The difference is that I can say what I like, but you can't.

For example, I can tell you that Trump is an unstable man who is too vain to make use of his own intelligence reports.  Or that Biden is a senile old man who panders to the progressive fringe.

You, on the other hand, can't tell me that President Pooh Bear is a fake nationalist who cares more about enriching the princelings than his own people.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

dad4 said:


> You, on the other hand, can't tell me that President Pooh Bear is a fake nationalist who cares more about enriching the princelings than his own people.


This is an interesting theory.  If true, and you believe the Putin is crazy and wants to build the Russian empire takes, it means Xi and Putin are motivated by opposite motivations.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

This is all nuts!!!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 1, 2022)

everyone was wondering why the US hadn't cut off the Russians from airspace....now we know....Biden wanted it for his speech.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> everyone was wondering why the US hadn't cut off the Russians from airspace....now we know....Biden wanted it for his speech.


Covid got 5 seconds


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah, no, but nice try though!


As a patriotic American, it is your responsibility to get the news from both sides. Exercising self censorship and only getting news from one side, the CNN, the French news, the Fox is not going to help. Do it to honor those who fought for your freedom to get the news from both sides. In some countries like the EU, the story from the other side is censored.


Ukraine under fire on Tubi TV.









						Ukraine on Fire (2014)
					

Following Yanukovych’s ouster as Ukranian President, filmmaker Oliver Stone exposes the role the United States played in destabilizing the region.




					tubitv.com


----------



## blam (Mar 1, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> This is a good explanation of what is going on by someone in a very high level position in the Biden administration
> 
> “Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine, so basically that’s wrong...”


totally fit the steretotype of the lazy American who just needs the news simplified down to simple terms in terms of good guy vs bad guy. The mainstream media did it job on you I guess. Please be patriotic and get the news from the other side. Check out what Norm Chomsky had to say on this issue. He is one who had spent decades studying foreign policy.


----------



## Brav520 (Mar 1, 2022)

blam said:


> totally fit the steretotype of the lazy American who just needs the news simplified down to simple terms in terms of good guy vs bad guy. The mainstream media did it job on you I guess. Please be patriotic and get the news from the other side. Check out what Norm Chomsky had to say on this issue. He is one who had spent decades studying foreign policy.


nope, this explanation from the VP is perfect for me


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

Brah..........









						State of Disaster
					

Literal dumpster fire.  SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ➡️YouTube Memberships: https://bit.ly/39yRdh8 ➡️PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/Memology101 ➡️Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AntonioChavez  FOLLOW ME ➡️Main channel - Memology 101: https://www.youtube.com/…




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

When Politics and War Interfere
					

The first thing I want to say here is that the following is commentary. This represents my (Andy’s) thoughts and no one else’s. It doesn’t even represent my opinion because, well,…




					tachiai.org


----------



## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> When Politics and War Interfere
> 
> 
> The first thing I want to say here is that the following is commentary. This represents my (Andy’s) thoughts and no one else’s. It doesn’t even represent my opinion because, well,…
> ...


"The developments of the past few decades has erased a lot of the optimism I’d had back in the Yeltsin days,  "

I am always confused by this sentiment. Is Yeltsin such a great leader for Russia? Would you want him to be President of the USA? I would want him to be president of my enemy, but not my own president. But if he is really a great leader, please fill me in. I must be missing something.


----------



## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> nope, this explanation from the VP is perfect for me


Your neighbour decides to point a gun through your bedroom window. The gun is all on his property and he promises he is not going to shoot. He will only shoot if you misbehave but if you do not misbehave, the gun will never be used. It is for peace. Is it ok for him to do that?

If Cuba were to join into a military aliance with Russia and position missiles at the USA, is that ok? 

This is the other side of the coin. NATO is continually expanding and is now on the eve of expanding into Ukraine. 









I will spare reitireating the other side of the coin..well maybe i will to be fair. The other side is Russia is a big nation, and it invades a smaller nation. The smaller nation is not allowed sovereignty in deciding its own fate(joining NATO). Then there is alllegation that this is nothing but a land grab by Putin.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> "The developments of the past few decades has erased a lot of the optimism I’d had back in the Yeltsin days,  "
> 
> I am always confused by this sentiment. Is Yeltsin such a great leader for Russia? Would you want him to be President of the USA? I would want him to be president of my enemy, but not my own president. But if he is really a great leader, please fill me in. I must be missing something.


He was transitioning towards capitalism for Russia and freedom for the Russian people.
It’s in all the history books . . .


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> "The developments of the past few decades has erased a lot of the optimism I’d had back in the Yeltsin days,  "
> 
> I am always confused by this sentiment. Is Yeltsin such a great leader for Russia? Would you want him to be President of the USA? I would want him to be president of my enemy, but not my own president. But if he is really a great leader, please fill me in. I must be missing something.


Why does everything have to be black and white with people.  He was great: he stood up to the Soviet coup, he transitioned away from the Soviet Union and adopted a democratic constitution, he dismantled the communist party, he transitioned to capitalism.  He was awful: he was a drunkard and a fool (particularly at the end), he handled the transition to capitalism horribly (allowing basically the looting of the assets by a handful of oligarchs), he allowed corruption to flourish, he weakened the Russian military and allowed for the spread of separatism and terrorism, and he laid the foundations for the end of democracy in russia by bringing people like Putin into the fold.  It's nuanced.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Why does everything have to be black and white with people.  He was great: he stood up to the Soviet coup, he transitioned away from the Soviet Union and adopted a democratic constitution, he dismantled the communist party, he transitioned to capitalism.  He was awful: he was a drunkard and a fool (particularly at the end), he handled the transition to capitalism horribly (allowing basically the looting of the assets by a handful of oligarchs), he allowed corruption to flourish, he weakened the Russian military and allowed for the spread of separatism and terrorism, and he laid the foundations for the end of democracy in russia by bringing people like Putin into the fold.  It's nuanced.


Also, one could add that since the Tsar there has been exactly one Russian leader who was not an autocrat, i.e. Yeltsin. So, while he had his flaws and made mistakes, he's better than all the rest with ease. (Including the Tsar's, he the only non-autocrat in 500 years - that's crazy really).

So yeah, people put him up there as a "great" leader, because relative to all the others, he was certainly great (& brave, although maybe the vodka helped with that).


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Also, one could add that since the Tsar there has been exactly one Russian leader who was not an autocrat, i.e. Yeltsin. So, while he had his flaws and made mistakes, he's better than all the rest with ease. (Including the Tsar's, he the only non-autocrat in 500 years - that's crazy really).
> 
> So yeah, people put him up there as a "great" leader, because relative to all the others, he was certainly great (& brave, although maybe the vodka helped with that).


Not a Kerensky fan I see.

In other news, Ukraine is saying more than 5,300 Russians have been killed in the invasion.  Western intelligence thinks that number is too high and probably wraps in the wounded, but they are guessing 2,000 killed which puts it roughly the same losses as the US with 20 years fighting in Afghanistan and that's before the so-called "final offensives" on Kiev and Kharkiv.  There are reports that news of the deaths are beginning to trickle into Russian villages.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> Your neighbour decides to point a gun through your bedroom window. The gun is all on his property and he promises he is not going to shoot. He will only shoot if you misbehave but if you do not misbehave, the gun will never be used. It is for peace. Is it ok for him to do that?
> 
> If Cuba were to join into a military aliance with Russia and position missiles at the USA, is that ok?
> 
> ...


Dont forget Human Trafficking and all the deals the Senator's Sons got in the Ukraine.  Soros lives their as well.  I read some insane stuff I dont put on here because no one would believe me.  Club 33 is real!!!


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Also, one could add that since the Tsar there has been exactly one Russian leader who was not an autocrat, i.e. Yeltsin. So, while he had his flaws and made mistakes, he's better than all the rest with ease. (Including the Tsar's, he the only non-autocrat in 500 years - that's crazy really).
> 
> So yeah, people put him up there as a "great" leader, because relative to all the others, he was certainly great (& brave, although maybe the vodka helped with that).


Missing the “days of” and saying someone was a great leader are different things, but I digress.


----------



## watfly (Mar 2, 2022)

I thought this was a very powerful interview (and yes I know the issues with a no fly zone and that was only a small part of the interview). 









						Ukrainian official calls for no-fly zone: We need the protection of the sky
					

Oleksandra Ustinova, a member of the Ukrainian Parliament, joins TODAY with Savannah Guthrie to talk about her disappointment with President Biden’s State of the Union address saying, “Today the whole world is watching Ukrainians being executed,” adding "we are grateful for help, but we need...




					www.today.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> I thought this was a very powerful interview (and yes I know the issues with a no fly zone and that was only a small part of the interview).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you like her support a full fledged war between super powers? Zelensky has said he doesn’t want to drag the world into it. He says send weapons and ammo not soldiers.
Are you one of those that have called Liz Cheney a warmonger in your reasoning for dismissing her then now want to call Biden wuss for not carpet bombing Russia and Russians?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

I see the the leader of the GOP has reversed tact and now says the invasion of Ukraine is a “holocaust”. So Putin is no longer a “genius”? It wasn’t longer “a brilliant move” by Putin?


----------



## watfly (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you like her support a full fledged war between super powers? Zelensky has said he doesn’t want to drag the world into it. He says send weapons and ammo not soldiers.
> Are you one of those that have called Liz Cheney a warmonger in your reasoning for dismissing her then now want to call Biden wuss for not carpet bombing Russia and Russians?


No Husker, I'm not in favor of any of that (and have no clue what your talking about in regards to Cheney and Biden).  I just thought it was a powerful interview and shows the desperation of the Ukranian people.  A no fly zone appears to be a bad idea for the US, but I can appreciate her point of view.  It's easy for us to sit here and wax philosophical about military policy when were not about to be bombed any minute.  The Ukranians are putting up a noble resistance but are effectively sitting ducks at this point.  Like she said "Putin is a psycho" and doesn't need any reason to be provoked.

Question for anyone.  Is their no way to get humanitarian aid into Ukraine at this point?  Can we not air drop food, medicine etc into the country?  When I say we, I don't necessarily mean US flagged aircraft, but what about the international Red Cross via air or ground?


----------



## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> So you like her support a full fledged war between super powers? Zelensky has said he doesn’t want to drag the world into it. He says send weapons and ammo not soldiers.
> Are you one of those that have called Liz Cheney a warmonger in your reasoning for dismissing her then now want to call Biden wuss for not carpet bombing Russia and Russians?


Ukraine is now asking for a no fly zone.









						Opinion | I’m Writing From a Bunker With President Zelensky Beside Me. We Will Fight to the Last Breath.
					

Nothing less than our freedom — and yours — is at stake.




					www.nytimes.com
				




We should also send weapons and ammo.


----------



## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> He was transitioning towards capitalism for Russia and freedom for the Russian people.
> It’s in all the history books . . .


Capitalism is good. It is the first step towards socialism.

As for freedom, the most important freedom is not political freedom. *It is financial freedom.* I know textbooks do not emphasize this, always going after some utopia freedom from outdated 18th century enlightenment ideas but financial freedom is what matters to the average person. What is the point of living in a free country where you have to slave away at a job. Then there is freedom to think but that is at the individual level.

Even taking the example of the US, which we are all brainwashed into believing it stands for freedom, it is overrated. There is actually a whole lot of restrictions on what you can do. They come in the form of state laws, codes, and even home owner association rules. All these combine and no surprise that I actually think I have less freedom in the US. An an example, I cannot paint my house purple unless my HOA approves it and they will not approve purple. Freedom. In Mexico, I can paint my house purple or whatever. Recently, San Diego passed a law that forbids you from opening a food stand in some area (I do not live there so I did not take note). Then you cannot drink beer on some beaches due to local codes etc. etc.. Many more examples. Lots of rules in the USA that restricts what you can or cannot do.

One issue I see with democracy that is practised in many countries is it leads to instability. The USA does not have this issue because the democracy practised here is quite unique. It is actually better characterized as a 2 party system (vs multi party system).  3rd parties stand no chance of winning the presidency, so there is a high degree of predictability, the outcome of the winner is either a Republican or a Democrat. There is no surprise dark horse from a 3rd party. Then the president becomes a dictator for the next 4 years. There is no vote of confidence which would cause him to lose his position which would lead to instability.

So financial freedom is the most important because it is tangible and meaningful to the average person. There is no need to rush for political freedom. Even in the USA, political freedom did not come in 1776. In 1776, only those with land could vote. It took many decades of struggle, supreme court decisions to reach the state it is in.  Mankind has survived for thousands of years without political freedom and there is no harm waiting another hundred years for the whole world to enjoy political freedom. Financial freedom is more important. We need to get the whole world out of poverty quickly so that the standard of living of the average human can improve.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> No Husker, I'm not in favor of any of that (and have no clue what your talking about in regards to Cheney and Biden).  I just thought it was a powerful interview and shows the desperation of the Ukranian people.  A no fly zone appears to be a bad idea for the US, but I can appreciate her point of view.  It's easy for us to sit here and wax philosophical about military policy when were not about to be bombed any minute.  The Ukranians are putting up a noble resistance but are effectively sitting ducks at this point.  Like she said "Putin is a psycho" and doesn't need any reason to be provoked.
> 
> Question for anyone.  Is their no way to get humanitarian aid into Ukraine at this point?  Can we not air drop food, medicine etc into the country?  When I say we, I don't necessarily mean US flagged aircraft, but what about the international Red Cross via air or ground?











						Want to help people in Ukraine? Here are ways to donate
					

As the fighting intensifies, groups helping injured and needy civilians in Ukraine are appealing for help.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 2, 2022)




----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> No Husker, I'm not in favor of any of that (and have no clue what your talking about in regards to Cheney and Biden).  I just thought it was a powerful interview and shows the desperation of the Ukranian people.  A no fly zone appears to be a bad idea for the US, but I can appreciate her point of view.  It's easy for us to sit here and wax philosophical about military policy when were not about to be bombed any minute.  The Ukranians are putting up a noble resistance but are effectively sitting ducks at this point.  Like she said "Putin is a psycho" and doesn't need any reason to be provoked.
> 
> Question for anyone.  Is their no way to get humanitarian aid into Ukraine at this point?  Can we not air drop food, medicine etc into the country?  When I say we, I don't necessarily mean US flagged aircraft, but what about the international Red Cross via air or ground?


I too wish we could do something both militarily and in relief. I am watching video of Russian soldiers pilfering banks and scouring the area for food. So air drops might be fought over more intensely than anything else.
My thought was unmarked drones bombing Russian supply lines and their unfurled convoy? I am admittedly naive in the ways of modern warfare (and it’s been decades since I read The Art of War, lol!) so . . . 
Wherever this goes I know one thing, Putin must be 100% persona non grata on the world stage. A Ghaddafi ending would be ideal.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Ukraine is now asking for a no fly zone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Won’t that escalate the situation?


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's nuanced.


Speaking of nuanced...listen to how our VP lays it out.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498742845196443649
And related to the above...I think this may be another clip of our VP some time ago. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498766131808686083


----------



## watfly (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I too wish we could do something both militarily and in relief. I am watching video of Russian soldiers pilfering banks and scouring the area for food. So air drops might be fought over more intensely than anything else.
> My thought was unmarked drones bombing Russian supply lines and their unfurled convoy? I am admittedly naive in the ways of modern warfare (and it’s been decades since I read The Art of War, lol!) so . . .
> Wherever this goes I know one thing, Putin must be 100% persona non grata on the world stage. A Ghaddafi ending would be ideal.


The Russian convoy would seem to be sitting ducks if Ukraine had any sort of air attack resources.  I don't really want to see young Russian soldiers slaughtered either.   It's hard to know what to believe, but the soldiers are likely also victims of Putin delusions.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> Capitalism is good. It is the first step towards socialism.
> 
> As for freedom, the most important freedom is not political freedom. *It is financial freedom.* I know textbooks do not emphasize this, always going after some utopia freedom from outdated 18th century enlightenment ideas but financial freedom is what matters to the average person. What is the point of living in a free country where you have to slave away at a job. Then there is freedom to think but that is at the individual level.
> 
> ...


There’s a lot to unpack there. Some things you got wrong, some you seem to misunderstand and the last part was very true.
From first hand knowledge in Baja there are the same type HOA restrictions in certain communities.
Here in San Diego huge parties that turned into riots on the beach and bay helped put an end to drinking on the beach. Like always civilizations need to protect the majority from the idiots. When your freedom encroaches on mine is that freedom?
I do live where unlicensed vendors were setting up shop on the sidewalks and all over the Veteran’s Plaza. Selling food, trinkets, edibles and some openly selling cannabis. Who’s freedom is that?
Not a lot of “instability” in the democracies I know of, any examples of where it isn’t working?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> What is the point of living in a free country where you have to slave away at a job. T


I remember getting into an argument with my sophomore history teacher who instead of teaching us world history went down a rabbit hole the first month to teach about the occupation of various countries by the US (looking back on it, I'm not sure how she got away with that...today it just wouldn't happen without parents coming to blows in front of the admin).  One day she started monologuing about how one day we would all have socialism and how the Soviet model was imperfect but one day true socialism would happen.  I was as much of a snit back then as I am now, so I raised my hand and started by quite innocently asking a bunch of questions leading her down the socratic method.  I wondered whether the Soviet Union had any people slaving away at jobs they didn't like, how it assigned these jobs, and if people didn't like their jobs maybe that's why things weren't efficient and they had shortages.  She responded in the future we could all pick our jobs.  So everyone can be a doctor...even those that aren't qualified or smart enough (oh I wish we had seen Idiocracy back then)?  No, but the state would find another job that we would like and would be suitable for.  Everyone would have a job they'd like and be good at.  So the state could manage things so there would be the exact number of teachers needed even if not everyone wanted to teach?  Yes, from each according to their gift, to each according to their needs.  While you might not have the perfect job, you'd have one you'd like, be good at, and want to do and be equally compensated for.  I smiled then...the class knew I had her....so who picks up the garbage, who's the janitor, who scrubs the toilets?  She stopped to think and then answered "robots".  The class roared out laughing at the obvious absurdity of it.  

Even in the communist utopia of the United Federation of Planets, people are forced to labor at a job.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

The West is going after Russian oligarchs' luxury yachts. A Ukrainian yacht mechanic got there first.
					





					theweek.com


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I remember getting into an argument with my sophomore history teacher who instead of teaching us world history went down a rabbit hole the first month to teach about the occupation of various countries by the US (looking back on it, I'm not sure how she got away with that...today it just wouldn't happen without parents coming to blows in front of the admin).  One day she started monologuing about how one day we would all have socialism and how the Soviet model was imperfect but one day true socialism would happen.  I was as much of a snit back then as I am now, so I raised my hand and started by quite innocently asking a bunch of questions leading her down the socratic method.  I wondered whether the Soviet Union had any people slaving away at jobs they didn't like, how it assigned these jobs, and if people didn't like their jobs maybe that's why things weren't efficient and they had shortages.  She responded in the future we could all pick our jobs.  So everyone can be a doctor...even those that aren't qualified or smart enough (oh I wish we had seen Idiocracy back then)?  No, but the state would find another job that we would like and would be suitable for.  Everyone would have a job they'd like and be good at.  So the state could manage things so there would be the exact number of teachers needed even if not everyone wanted to teach?  Yes, from each according to their gift, to each according to their needs.  While you might not have the perfect job, you'd have one you'd like, be good at, and want to do and be equally compensated for.  I smiled then...the class knew I had her....so who picks up the garbage, who's the janitor, who scrubs the toilets?  She stopped to think and then answered "robots".  The class roared out laughing at the obvious absurdity of it.
> 
> Even in the communist utopia of the United Federation of Planets, people are forced to labor at a job.


Yeah but in some other countries people get far better benefits . . . much more vacation time for one.
But then again when you are a member of the leisure squad what would you care about working stiffs, eh Anastasia?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Yeah but in some other countries people get far better benefits . . . much more vacation time for one.


It's a far cry from more vacation time to socialism, but you know that.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Won’t that escalate the situation?


 If Russia wins in Ukraine, that pretty much guarantees he goes after Georgia, then Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  And seriously raises the risk thar China invades Taiwan.

A no fly zone now is lower risk than a formal declaration of war when Taiwan or Estonia are attacked.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I remember getting into an argument with my sophomore history teacher who instead of teaching us world history went down a rabbit hole the first month to teach about the occupation of various countries by the US (looking back on it, I'm not sure how she got away with that...today it just wouldn't happen without parents coming to blows in front of the admin).  One day she started monologuing about how one day we would all have socialism and how the Soviet model was imperfect but one day true socialism would happen.  I was as much of a snit back then as I am now, so I raised my hand and started by quite innocently asking a bunch of questions leading her down the socratic method.  I wondered whether the Soviet Union had any people slaving away at jobs they didn't like, how it assigned these jobs, and if people didn't like their jobs maybe that's why things weren't efficient and they had shortages.  She responded in the future we could all pick our jobs.  So everyone can be a doctor...even those that aren't qualified or smart enough (oh I wish we had seen Idiocracy back then)?  No, but the state would find another job that we would like and would be suitable for.  Everyone would have a job they'd like and be good at.  So the state could manage things so there would be the exact number of teachers needed even if not everyone wanted to teach?  Yes, from each according to their gift, to each according to their needs.  While you might not have the perfect job, you'd have one you'd like, be good at, and want to do and be equally compensated for.  I smiled then...the class knew I had her....so who picks up the garbage, who's the janitor, who scrubs the toilets?  She stopped to think and then answered "robots".  The class roared out laughing at the obvious absurdity of it.
> 
> Even in the communist utopia of the United Federation of Planets, people are forced to labor at a job.


Read Looking Backward some time.  Edward Bellamy.

Old socialist sci fi about a future utopia.  But he eventually mentions the prison camps for those who don’t feel like working.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> If Russia wins in Ukraine, that pretty much guarantees he goes after Georgia, then Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  And seriously raises the risk thar China invades Taiwan.
> 
> A no fly zone now is lower risk than a formal declaration of war when Taiwan or Estonia are attacked.


China is unlikely to invade Taiwan now that they've seen the west's resolve in sanctions.  As you yourself pointed out, the business of China is business and the addition of Taiwan simply won't add much to the bottom line given the costs.

Georgia?  Maybe.

Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia mean Article five and nuclear war.  The Chinese and Indians even won't go there so Russia would be truly alone and it will take a bit for them to rebuild (a half decade at least) their military stores, particularly given the crippled economy and being cut off from certain supplies that the Chinese will now need to make up.  And that's assuming they force a capitulation that doesn't require them being in occupation of the Ukraine and facing rebel forces for years to come.

It's really crazy to hear from you of all people that you'd be willing to trade a risk now with a high chance of escalation (US and Russian planes shooting it out in an airwar which necessarily would escalate to the attacking of airbases on NATO  and Russian territory and the firing or cruise missiles in order to gain air supremacy, which is what a no fly zone entails) over a hypothetical risk later which may or may not happen.  Given you were so afraid of a virus which for your age group had a higher than 99.5% survival rating, I can only conclude you just don't do risk assessment very well for some reason, despite that fabulous mathematical brain of yours.  An insurance actuary you are not.


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## watfly (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> If Russia wins in Ukraine, that pretty much guarantees he goes after Georgia, then Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  And seriously raises the risk thar China invades Taiwan.
> 
> A no fly zone now is lower risk than a formal declaration of war when Taiwan or Estonia are attacked.


Putin is having a hard time with Ukraine, seems like he'd have a struggle moving on to other countries.  I guess he could bomb the other countries into submission, but I don't see how he occupies the countries.  He's also likely going to have to find some source to fund all his expansion activities.  Sounds like he is already getting squeezed financially.  I guess he could resort to nuclear extortion.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> If Russia wins in Ukraine, that pretty much guarantees he goes after Georgia, then Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  And seriously raises the risk thar China invades Taiwan.
> 
> A no fly zone now is lower risk than a formal declaration of war when Taiwan or Estonia are attacked.


Or brings it to reality quicker. How do you know Putin will keep going? Your gut?
My gut says if this goes on much longer you will get what you want soon, not in a month.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's a far cry from more vacation time to socialism, but you know that.











						Is the United States a Market Economy or a Mixed Economy?
					

The United States is a mixed economy, combining elements of a true free market economy with governmental, economic controls.




					www.investopedia.com


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> Putin is having a hard time with Ukraine, seems like he'd have a struggle moving on to other countries.  I guess he could bomb the other countries into submission, but I don't see how he occupies the countries.  He's also likely going to have to find some source to fund all his expansion activities.  Sounds like he is already getting squeezed financially.  I guess he could resort to nuclear extortion.





Hüsker Dü said:


> Or brings it to reality quicker. How do you know Putin will keep going? Your gut?
> My gut says if this goes on much longer you will get what you want soon, not in a month.


He doesn't have free reign in Russia the way the Kims did in North Korea.  The oligarchs hate losing their soccer teams, yachts, reserves and med holidays.  If Putin starts without justification trying to hold nuclear hostages, at that point the oligarch, probably together with the FSB, would take him out.  North Korea is like a cult.  Russia is organized more like the mob.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> China is unlikely to invade Taiwan now that they've seen the west's resolve in sanctions.  As you yourself pointed out, the business of China is business and the addition of Taiwan simply won't add much to the bottom line given the costs.
> 
> Georgia?  Maybe.
> 
> ...


Agree with most of that except the “afraid” part. Concern for the well being of others shouldn’t be characterized as being afraid, it just hints to your stance on the issue and penchant for petty jabs (i.e. being a troll).


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## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> Putin is having a hard time with Ukraine, seems like he'd have a struggle moving on to other countries.  I guess he could bomb the other countries into submission, but I don't see how he occupies the countries.  He's also likely going to have to find some source to fund all his expansion activities.  Sounds like he is already getting squeezed financially.  I guess he could resort to nuclear extortion.


You watch way too much Tel A Vision


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## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> He doesn't have free reign in Russia the way the Kims did in North Korea.  The oligarchs hate losing their soccer teams, yachts, reserves and med holidays.  If Putin starts without justification trying to hold nuclear hostages, at that point the oligarch, probably together with the FSB, would take him out.  North Korea is like a cult.  Russia is organized more like the mob.


Ukraine is listed as one of the worse criminal places on earth.  Russia is only up on them 4 spots.


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## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> China is unlikely to invade Taiwan now that they've seen the west's resolve in sanctions.  As you yourself pointed out, the business of China is business and the addition of Taiwan simply won't add much to the bottom line given the costs.
> 
> Georgia?  Maybe.
> 
> ...


Why should I assume Putin won’t go after the remaining Soviet Republics?  Or that China won’t invade Taiwan?  

US red lines teand to be quite blurry.  We also had a red line over chemical weapons in Syria, and Putin walked right over that one.

Seems a reasonable bet that, when push comes to shove, we aren’t really willing to defend Riga.  I mean, they are NATO, but they are also a former Soviet Republic.  It’s part of Russia’s traditional sphere of influence.  It’s not like they attacked Paris…..

So it is a reasonable bet, and we have evidence Putin is a betting man.  He goes in.

I certainly like our odds at forcing peace negotiations better than our odds that Putin shows restraint.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Agree with most of that except the “afraid” part. Concern for the well being of others shouldn’t be characterized as being afraid, it just hints to your stance on the issue and penchant for petty jabs (i.e. being a troll).


I think certain people on the other side of COVID were definitely "concerned about others" and it may have blinded them to risk analysis.  I would have bought into that explanation about dad4 until we found out he hadn't really altered his behavior after being vaccinated, particularly when we found it he was wearing N95s into the market and was still rigorously social distancing.

A complaint about petty jabs is pretty funny though coming from you (you are doing it better than espola these days...congrats).


----------



## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I remember getting into an argument with my sophomore history teacher who instead of teaching us world history went down a rabbit hole the first month to teach about the occupation of various countries by the US (looking back on it, I'm not sure how she got away with that...today it just wouldn't happen without parents coming to blows in front of the admin).  One day she started monologuing about how one day we would all have socialism and how the Soviet model was imperfect but one day true socialism would happen.  I was as much of a snit back then as I am now, so I raised my hand and started by quite innocently asking a bunch of questions leading her down the socratic method.  I wondered whether the Soviet Union had any people slaving away at jobs they didn't like, how it assigned these jobs, and if people didn't like their jobs maybe that's why things weren't efficient and they had shortages.  She responded in the future we could all pick our jobs.  So everyone can be a doctor...even those that aren't qualified or smart enough (oh I wish we had seen Idiocracy back then)?  No, but the state would find another job that we would like and would be suitable for.  Everyone would have a job they'd like and be good at.  So the state could manage things so there would be the exact number of teachers needed even if not everyone wanted to teach?  Yes, from each according to their gift, to each according to their needs.  While you might not have the perfect job, you'd have one you'd like, be good at, and want to do and be equally compensated for.  I smiled then...the class knew I had her....so who picks up the garbage, who's the janitor, who scrubs the toilets?  She stopped to think and then answered "robots".  The class roared out laughing at the obvious absurdity of it.
> 
> Even in the communist utopia of the United Federation of Planets, people are forced to labor at a job.


My point is not that socialism is better than capitalism...it is that* having financial freedom is more important than political freedom.* Yet, our leaders appear to emphasize the need to have elections, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly all ahead of financial freedom.

Given a choice of having a dictator that is able to generate 10% GDP growth every year vs "democracy" with a failing economy, most everyone would choose having a dictator and 10% GDP growth per year.  

For this reason, this is why I think Putin is generally good for Russia see below since 2000. Since coming to power, the GDP per capita of Russia has improved a lot than under Yeltsin. I do not see why Putin is a problem to the West. Whoever is able to help Russia develop into a strong economy, that is who is good for Russia. Political freedom can take a back seat. No rush. That can come in the next 100 years, it does not have to come during my lifetime.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I think certain people on the other side of COVID were definitely "concerned about others" and it may have blinded them to risk analysis.  I would have bought into that explanation about dad4 until we found out he hadn't really altered his behavior after being vaccinated, particularly when we found it he was wearing N95s into the market and was still rigorously social distancing.
> 
> A complaint about petty jabs is pretty funny though coming from you (you are doing it better than espola these days...congrats).


I did almost insert a lol but felt the tongue in cheek was obvious enough.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Why should I assume Putin won’t go after the remaining Soviet Republics?  Or that China won’t invade Taiwan?
> 
> US red lines teand to be quite blurry.  We also had a red line over chemical weapons in Syria, and Putin walked right over that one.
> 
> ...


a. you are assuming he has complete dominance over his government and society. He doesn't.  Again, it's organized like the mob.
b. the US redline with the baltics are pretty clear.  If we don't live up to that obligation NATO falls apart.  There are US troops there as well which are forward deployed.  Your assumption therefore is that Putin makes a threat on the Baltics and Biden just says o.k. we are pulling out our troops or doesn't care that US troops are killed and just surrenders the Baltics by pulling out.  That's why the Baltics joined NATO...the promise is worth less than the fact there are American troops there in harms way.  It's likely the key factor now why Sweden and Finland will both join.
c.  It's not just airplanes fighting at each other.  Putin would be forced to strike at NATO bases in Europe with planes and cruise missiles.  Same with the US and bases in Russia.  Civilians in addition to military die.  That's a sure fire route to escalation and nuclear war.
d. even if you believe Putin will invade the Baltics, that's still several years away as he'll have to rebuild his military and rebuild his economy to finance that.   A lot of stuff can happen in that time period.
e. you are really really really bad a risk assessment (which is fine...you are really great at other things).  The choice is a near certainty of at least a tactical nuclear exchange now v. an unknown quantity in the future.  If your answer is you rather have nuclear war now than in a few years, well that's a different issue.


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## dad4 (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I think certain people on the other side of COVID were definitely "concerned about others" and it may have blinded them to risk analysis.  I would have bought into that explanation about dad4 until we found out he hadn't really altered his behavior after being vaccinated, particularly when we found it he was wearing N95s into the market and was still rigorously social distancing.
> 
> A complaint about petty jabs is pretty funny though coming from you (you are doing it better than espola these days...congrats).


Take your covid trolling to the covid thread, please.

I’ve answered your Putin risk analysis question.  I believe that a large air deployment to Poland and Romania is sufficient to force a cease fire.  I certainly believe that the odds of a nuclear war from such a deployment are lower than the odds of a nuclear war caused by repeated capitulation.


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## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> It's really crazy to hear from you of all people that you'd be willing to trade a risk now with a high chance of escalation (US and Russian planes shooting it out in an airwar which necessarily would escalate to the attacking of airbases on NATO and Russian territory and the firing or cruise missiles in order to gain air supremacy, which is what a no fly zone entails) over a hypothetical risk later which may or may not happen.


To most ordinary americans, war is abstract. It appears only on TV screens. Not like a bomb is falling on your backyard. Its a different thing if the voting is such that those for the war will be conscripted to the army. Then the response will be drastically different.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Take your covid trolling to the covid thread, please.
> 
> I’ve answered your Putin risk analysis question.  I believe that a large air deployment to Poland and Romania is sufficient to force a cease fire.  I certainly believe that the odds of a nuclear war from such a deployment are lower than the odds of a nuclear war caused by repeated capitulation.


Unless you think a large air deployment would cause the oligarchs/military/FSB to overthrow Putin before any Russians and Americans are killed, then your assumption is incorrect.  Russia is organized like the mob....weakness is a sign to overthrow the Don...Putin cannot show weakness so he'll lob bombs on European airbases and roll the die, hoping Biden is too senile or weak to respond in kind.  You yourself said he's a gambler...the only way out of your hypothetical is you think a show of strength forces his overthrow, which is a huge roll of the dice, because if that doesn't happen, it's almost a guaranteed nuclear exchange.  Again, you don't know what happens in five years and the sanctions the US has in place and the unexpected losses are certainly enough to make him (and particularly China which as you've said) is all business.

Sorry...this exchange is most illuminating as to the workings of your mind.... couldn't understand before why you took the positions you did so I ascribed it all to "religion"....but it may be as simple as you just can't make a risk calculation to save your life.  You are willing to roll the dice RIGHT NOW on nuclear war....but a little bug with an IFR under one percent that sent you into makes us Australia.


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## espola (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> a. you are assuming he has complete dominance over his government and society. He doesn't.  Again, it's organized like the mob.
> b. the US redline with the baltics are pretty clear.  If we don't live up to that obligation NATO falls apart.  There are US troops there as well which are forward deployed.  Your assumption therefore is that Putin makes a threat on the Baltics and Biden just says o.k. we are pulling out our troops or doesn't care that US troops are killed and just surrenders the Baltics by pulling out.  That's why the Baltics joined NATO...the promise is worth less than the fact there are American troops there in harms way.  It's likely the key factor now why Sweden and Finland will both join.
> c.  It's not just airplanes fighting at each other.  Putin would be forced to strike at NATO bases in Europe with planes and cruise missiles.  Same with the US and bases in Russia.  Civilians in addition to military die.  That's a sure fire route to escalation and nuclear war.
> d. even if you believe Putin will invade the Baltics, that's still several years away as he'll have to rebuild his military and rebuild his economy to finance that.   A lot of stuff can happen in that time period.
> e. you are really really really bad a risk assessment (which is fine...you are really great at other things).  The choice is a near certainty of at least a tactical nuclear exchange now v. an unknown quantity in the future.  If your answer is you rather have nuclear war now than in a few years, well that's a different issue.


In a tactical war, nuclear weapons make no sense.  Modern weapon technology allows the pilot to ask "Which window?" when he is asked to hit a house with a cruise missile.  Nuclear weapons destroy the target for the enemy and also for the shooter.  Unless Putin wants to govern a wasteland, his best use of nuclear weapons is political, and once he uses them, he loses.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

espola said:


> In a tactical war, nuclear weapons make no sense.  Modern weapon technology allows the pilot to also "Which window?" when he is asked to hit a house with a cruise missile.  Nuclear weapons destroy the target for the enemy and also for the shooter.  Unless Putin wants to govern a wasteland, his best use of nuclear weapons is political, and once he uses them, he loses.


 the problem is war isn't always rational.  Sometimes its just emotional.


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## espola (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> the problem is war isn't always rational.  Sometimes its just emotional.


One squadron of A-10s and the Russian convoy will remind us of this --


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## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> the problem is war isn't always rational.  Sometimes its just emotional.


War Sucks!!!!


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## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Or that China won’t invade Taiwan?


China is one nation with 2 governments. One in Beijing and one in Taipei.

The People´s Republic of China in Beijing will absolutely invade the Republic of Taiwan if such a nation ever is declared. That is a guarantee.

As long as Taiwan remains under Republic of China in Taipei, I do not see any risk of this happening.

The logic is that Taiwan even though it is under the administration of Taipei is still a Chinese government, albeit not a Communist one, but it is still Chinese territory under a Chinese government. I suppose the Chinese think that as long as it is Chinese territory who cares which government is governing it. China have been split into multiple nations so many times throughout history.

If there is a coup in Taipei, and the Republic of China in Taipei is overthrown and ceases to exist, and a new nation is declared, then Communist china will see itself as a force that is needed to come in to rescue Taiwan from falling into separatist hands.

*The issue I see is the inconsistency of US policy.* US policy recognizes the government in Beijing as legitimate government of China. Yet it sells weapons to the Republic of China government in Taiwan, thus it is supporting and supplying arms to an illegitimate government. 

*The US should stop selling weapons to the ROC in Taiwan OR recognize the Republic of China in Taiwan as the legitimate government of China. It* is trying to have my cake and it eat too on this issue. Just recognize Taiwan as China.


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## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

espola said:


> One squadron of A-10s and the Russian convoy will remind us of this --
> 
> View attachment 13066


So sad Espoal that you play with war.  I lost a buddy and many died fighting the BS that Herbert got is into.  His 9/11/90 NWO speech is ringing true today.  The cool news is you guys got caught.  You are something else with your war talk.  Sad day for anyone who is in any war.  War sucks!!!


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## baldref (Mar 2, 2022)

blam said:


> Given a choice of having a dictator that is able to generate 10% GDP growth every year vs "democracy" with a failing economy, most everyone would choose having a dictator and 10% GDP growth per year.


Who is this "most everyone" you speak of? I must not know them.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

baldref said:


> Who is this "most everyone" you speak of? I must not know them.


Must be the “I’d rather have trump as king forever over Biden for four years!” people. I know a couple of those.


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## baldref (Mar 2, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Must be the “I’d rather have trump as king forever over Biden for four years!” people. I know a couple of those.


The first time you make sense, will be the first time you make sense. But you do you.


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## Hüsker Dü (Mar 2, 2022)

baldref said:


> The first time you make sense, will be the first time you make sense. But you do you.


Just a quote I read on social media and thought it was right in line with someone preferring a dictator. King=dictator, get it?


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## whatithink (Mar 2, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Unless you think a large air deployment would cause the oligarchs/military/FSB to overthrow Putin before any Russians and Americans are killed, then your assumption is incorrect.  Russia is organized like the mob....weakness is a sign to overthrow the Don...Putin cannot show weakness so he'll lob bombs on European airbases and roll the die, hoping Biden is too senile or weak to respond in kind.  You yourself said he's a gambler...the only way out of your hypothetical is you think a show of strength forces his overthrow, which is a huge roll of the dice, because if that doesn't happen, it's almost a guaranteed nuclear exchange.  Again, you don't know what happens in five years and the sanctions the US has in place and the unexpected losses are certainly enough to make him (and particularly China which as you've said) is all business.
> 
> Sorry...this exchange is most illuminating as to the workings of your mind.... couldn't understand before why you took the positions you did so I ascribed it all to "religion"....but it may be as simple as you just can't make a risk calculation to save your life.  You are willing to roll the dice RIGHT NOW on nuclear war....but a little bug with an IFR under one percent that sent you into makes us Australia.


"Russia is organized like the mob", that may actually be a saving grace. Triggering Article 5 by invading a NATO country will start a European conflict. There is no way NATO doesn't respond with overwhelming force. Given how Russia has rolled into the Ukraine, their ground troops & armor would be toast in a day. From there its straight to nukes.

No "mob" presses the self-destruct button willingly and everyone loses in that type of European conflict. I can certainly see a coup dumping Putin, but can also see purges by Putin. The former would be good at this point, the latter could be even more dangerous than things currently are.

IMV, the European response to this is way more than Putin could have contemplated. I think its the correct response because they are basically saying "we want peace, but we are preparing for war". These are very dangerous times.


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## Soccerhelper (Mar 2, 2022)

*NO WAY HOME: THE EXPLOITATION AND ABUSE OF CHILDREN IN UKRAINE’S ORPHANAGES*
Published by Disability Rights International, this report documents the exploitation and trafficking of institutionalized children in Ukraine. Whilst UNICEF estimates that there are 82,000 children living in institutions, other advocacy groups have suggested that the number is far greater. This problem has been exasperated with Ukraine’s conflict with Russia, leading to more children disappearing or being abandoned by these institutions that were supposed to protect them. In these institutions, Disability Rights International has found that the children face sex and labour trafficking, sexual abuse, physical abuse, forced abortion and lack of community support. Many children who graduated from orphanages are often forced onto the streets while facing substance abuse among other issues. Nevertheless, there are many international parties that still donate to these institutions, perpetuating these problems.


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## Grace T. (Mar 2, 2022)

the battle of the cities has started. Russia is no longer being cautious about civilian collateral damage and is preparing Chechnya type tactics to level the cities with artillery. An amphibious invasion is headed towards Odessa. Ukraine is vowing to turn Kiev Deneper Odessa and Kharkiv into new Stalingrad’s with street to street fighting. The spring mud is early and is already snagging wheeled vehicles. Russian casualties now stand between 5000-7000 killed or wounded but a lot more people including civilians are going to die in the next 2-4 days when the Russian assault comes on line.


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## blam (Mar 2, 2022)

baldref said:


> Who is this "most everyone" you speak of? I must not know them.


Yes, you probably do not know them. Some of them are Iraqis who wished Saddam was back. Some of them are Libyans who wished Gaddafi was back.

Its called the  Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Most of these lower needs can be achieved through financial freedom. Political freedom does not except at the very top of self actualization.

I remember reading an article decades ago, Filipinos were questioning if they were lagging behind the rest of South East Asia and Asia because they had too much democracy. Many successful Asian tigers were ruled by dictators, to start, Singapore under Lee Kuan Yew, South Korea under Park Chung Hee, Republic of China in Taiwan under Chiang to name a few.

To give an example, Singapore has such a draconian government that it holds the world record for imprisoning the longest ever serving political prisoner without trial, beating Nelson Mandela. Yet every election, the ruling party wins easily, why? Financial freedom. People become rich under this government. At some point when money is no longer an object, they will go for higher level needs.

For most countries with GDP under 15000, I think it is safe to say to say the priority for most people is financial freedom over political freedom. Many citizens who think political freedom matters soon realize that upon changing the government through election, the same corruption happens no matter who is in government. Good economy and governance on the other hand guarantees food on the table, shelter, a happy family, and if a dictator can deliver that, why not.

For this, I believe that many attempts to "spread democracy" like those in Iraq or Libya to name a few, are really sinister attempts at destablizing foreign governments.


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## baldref (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> Yes, you probably do not know them. Some of them are Iraqis who wished Saddam was back. Some of them are Libyans who wished Gaddafi was back.
> 
> Its called the  Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Most of these lower needs can be achieved through financial freedom. Political freedom does not except at the very top of self actualization.
> 
> ...


most everyone. I see......weird shit dude.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

baldref said:


> most everyone. I see......weird shit dude.


I have this prediction.  Once all the bad guys are captured, everyone still alive on earth will get a UBI.  It's because all of our past family and friends worked as slaves and died in endless wars and so have we.  This is our time!!!  Everyone will be set free truly, just like in 1776.  Land is everywhere. Freedom is coming and it;s not going to be weird.  We have plenty of resources for all of us.  It's the liars and cheaters that have taken for themselves. Us vs Them will be over, at least that's what my intuition is telling.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> Yes, you probably do not know them. Some of them are Iraqis who wished Saddam was back. Some of them are Libyans who wished Gaddafi was back.
> 
> Its called the  Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Most of these lower needs can be achieved through financial freedom. Political freedom does not except at the very top of self actualization.
> 
> ...











						Europe’s Sleeping Giant Awakens
					

Politics in Berlin has undergone a cataclysm that no one saw coming.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Reports from European and Eastern sources about what's happening inside Russia is ugly.  It looks like the Duma is scheduled to meet in the coming days and analysts are speculating they will take certain actions including: giving Putin the right to rule by absolute decree without the Duma, prohibiting the movement of currency and people out of Russia (the lower upper classes and upper middle class has begun to exodus), declare martial law (including one report that protestors will be send to serve at the front) and reintroduce general conscription and call up the reservists (since the occupation in the Ukraine is anticipated to be long and bloody).  Meanwhile foreign companies, like Ikea and McDonalds, unable to to operate their businesses without currency transfers and having begun the process already of transferring out their foreign national staffs, have begun to shutter.  Reports are that Russian casualties may now top 7000 and there are reports of whole units surrendering or going AWOL....that doesn't mean the Russian offensive is over but that it's shifted to another phase: the use of artillery to level cities and terrorize them into surrender....in response Ukraine has announced Russian artillery men will not be given quarter and will be shot on sight.  The 25 year integration of Russia into the global economy is essentially being undone in the course of less than a  month and a big question is how the late millenials and Zers will react to that, given they have no recollection of a time when Russia was cut off from the world and can't get new iphones or use their apple pay.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Reports from European and Eastern sources about what's happening inside Russia is ugly.  It looks like the Duma is scheduled to meet in the coming days and analysts are speculating they will take certain actions including: giving Putin the right to rule by absolute decree without the Duma, prohibiting the movement of currency and people out of Russia (the lower upper classes and upper middle class has begun to exodus), declare martial law (including one report that protestors will be send to serve at the front) and reintroduce general conscription and call up the reservists (since the occupation in the Ukraine is anticipated to be long and bloody).  Meanwhile foreign companies, like Ikea and McDonalds, unable to to operate their businesses without currency transfers and having begun the process already of transferring out their foreign national staffs, have begun to shutter.  Reports are that Russian casualties may now top 7000 and there are reports of whole units surrendering or going AWOL....that doesn't mean the Russian offensive is over but that it's shifted to another phase: the use of artillery to level cities and terrorize them into surrender....in response Ukraine has announced Russian artillery men will not be given quarter and will be shot on sight.  The 25 year integration of Russia into the global economy is essentially being undone in the course of less than a  month and a big question is how the late millenials and Zers will react to that, given they have no recollection of a time when Russia was cut off from the world and can't get new iphones or use their apple pay.


Interesting, where did you get that from?


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Reports from European and Eastern sources about what's happening inside Russia is ugly.  It looks like the Duma is scheduled to meet in the coming days and analysts are speculating they will take certain actions including: giving Putin the right to rule by absolute decree without the Duma, prohibiting the movement of currency and people out of Russia (the lower upper classes and upper middle class has begun to exodus), declare martial law (including one report that protestors will be send to serve at the front) and reintroduce general conscription and call up the reservists (since the occupation in the Ukraine is anticipated to be long and bloody).  Meanwhile foreign companies, like Ikea and McDonalds, unable to to operate their businesses without currency transfers and having begun the process already of transferring out their foreign national staffs, have begun to shutter.  Reports are that Russian casualties may now top 7000 and there are reports of whole units surrendering or going AWOL....that doesn't mean the Russian offensive is over but that it's shifted to another phase: the use of artillery to level cities and terrorize them into surrender....in response Ukraine has announced Russian artillery men will not be given quarter and will be shot on sight.  The 25 year integration of Russia into the global economy is essentially being undone in the course of less than a  month and a big question is how the late millenials and Zers will react to that, given they have no recollection of a time when Russia was cut off from the world and can't get new iphones or use their apple pay.


NGSWIC!!!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Interesting, where did you get that from?


Polish TV, Channel 4, Finnish radio, Kazakh Russian language tv, Turkish press.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Polish TV, Channel 4, Finnish radio, Kazakh Russian language tv, Turkish press.


That's what I thought.  Your big time wrong on this intel, trust me.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Soccerhelper said:


> That's what I thought.  Your big time wrong on this intel, trust me.


Why what's up? What are you hearing and source?  There's even video BTW which can't lie...the Swedes were putting up video of Russians are staging a run on Ikea and the Apple Store in Moscow because they are shuttering this weekend and Channel 4 was interviewing the people who are trying to get out before the travel ban goes into effect (blurring their faces).


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Putin apparently is uncowed.  Macron after his call said the worst is yet to come and Putin is determined to occupy the the whole of Ukraine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499386859771867141


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Why what's up? What are you hearing and source?  There's even video BTW which can't lie...the Swedes were putting up video of Russians are staging a run on Ikea and the Apple Store in Moscow because they are shuttering this weekend and Channel 4 was interviewing the people who are trying to get out before the travel ban goes into effect (blurring their faces).


Club 33 is going down sweat heart.  It's a big club with some serious evil.  That's the part you miss.  You will very soon find out.  I love you Grace t and now you know what kind of men my daughter had to deal with.


----------



## blam (Mar 3, 2022)

Biden can come out and give a commitment that NATO will not expand into Ukraine. However, do they want this or is this part of a larger scheme of a proxy war to get one Slav to kill another Slav?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Polish TV, Channel 4, Finnish radio, Kazakh Russian language tv, Turkish press.


I meant where did you copy and paste that from.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> Biden can come out and give a commitment that NATO will not expand into Ukraine. However, do they want this or is this part of a larger scheme of a proxy war to get one Slav to kill another Slav?


Putin is responsible no one else.


----------



## blam (Mar 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Putin is responsible no one else.


I see...is this where he is the big country invading a small country and that is just wrong?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> Biden can come out and give a commitment that NATO will not expand into Ukraine. However, do they want this or is this part of a larger scheme of a proxy war to get one Slav to kill another Slav?


The issue there is that's not really for Biden to say.  Any country has the right to apply to NATO.  NATO can reject the application but that involves more countries than the United States

He could have worked towards the voluntary finlandization of the Ukraine by pressuring them, but that has it's own downsides.  It would have been viewed as appeasement and much like the memory of WWII in Russia, the memory of WWII in Europe, particularly eastern Europe, still casts a long shadow.  And I personally doubt it would have appeased Putin...first, he's been clear he wants regime change in the Ukraine to have the government tilt towards Moscow....and then he'd just want more.  If Ukraine was going to be finlandized, that would have had to have happened before the Crimea happened.  that's not Biden's fault (or Trump's for that matter)...you'd have to lay that on Bush and Obama.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The issue there is that's not really for Biden to say.  Any country has the right to apply to NATO.  NATO can reject the application but that involves more countries than the United States
> 
> He could have worked towards the voluntary finlandization of the Ukraine by pressuring them, but that has it's own downsides.  It would have been viewed as appeasement and much like the memory of WWII in Russia, the memory of WWII in Europe, particularly eastern Europe, still casts a long shadow.  And I personally doubt it would have appeased Putin...first, he's been clear he wants regime change in the Ukraine to have the government tilt towards Moscow....and then he'd just want more.  If Ukraine was going to be finlandized, that would have had to have happened before the Crimea happened.  that's not Biden's fault (or Trump's for that matter)...you'd have to lay that on Bush and Obama.


Obama, Joe, Hillary and Hunter built an empire in the Ukraine 8 years ago.  Bio labs and energy business is big time in da Ukraine.  Let's not forget all the Senators Sons cashing in.  Human trafficking is the #1 business over there as well Grace T.  Putin is under control and is cleaning his area out of some serious bad people.  How on earth can we go from, "Get the jab or else to war over night?  Tel A Vison is telling you everything they want you to believe.  Guess what and this pains me to death.  My wife's really good friend's son tried to kill himself.  Blood everywhere but mom saved her son.  Her husband left her with her two sons and one of them is on drugs and she is not strong enough to take him on anymore.  Cops came and tried to do the 72 hour hold but he stopped.  My other friend is scared for the first time and knows now he was lied to about taking the jabs.  It was a set up Grace T.  This is what I think is going to happen next.  You know what, forget it for now because you won;t believe me again and will just make fun of the TRUTH.  The TRUTH is coming, yay for the TRUTH.  We want TRUTH, we want TRUTH.  We want FREEDOM for everyone.  UBI for all!!!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

We have yet to begin to feel the inflationary effects....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495929807703797761


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> We have yet to begin to feel the inflationary effects....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495929807703797761




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499468025036169216


----------



## Soccerhelper (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499468025036169216


Wait until they play with the power grid Grace T.  Get ready for some serious arrests.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

One thing I can say about Trump's foreign policy in this is that he did right to court India.  The fact the Biden admin hasn't prioritized this is malfeasance.  We are natural allies....both democracies, India has its own China issues, can be used as an industrial hub to rival China, sizeable Indian expat community in the US....but instead we have neither India or Pakistan backing.









						UN Vote Signals Trouble for Washington’s Global Coalition Against Russia
					

The Biden administration boasts about the exceptional unity of the international community in opposing Moscow’s Ukraine adventure. However, the UN vote is another indication on a growing list suggesting that claims of such unity are overblown.




					nationalinterest.org


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Interesting, where did you get that from?


" Pay " attention...you might learn some TRUTH for once.


----------



## blam (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> One thing I can say about Trump's foreign policy in this is that he did right to court India.  The fact the Biden admin hasn't prioritized this is malfeasance.  We are natural allies....both democracies, India has its own China issues, can be used as an industrial hub to rival China, sizeable Indian expat community in the US....but instead we have neither India or Pakistan backing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


India is too smart and powerful to fight a proxy war for the United States or to become a vassal state of the USA. We are not talking about small nation states like Korea or defeated empires like Japan, where they are in the coalition for fear of China.

Most US military equipment are useless in times of war. The software that are used to run these are crippled or locked. You cannot plan a proper mission without the US knowing about it. Russian military equipment do not have this limitation. 

Democracy is not the most importnat priority. Income is, financial freedom. As income rises, that will come and be demanded internally. Humans have lived at least 5000 years without democracy, it makes little in the grand scheme of things if we wait another 200 years for the rest of the world to be democratic. 

And US can hardly be describe as free or democratic. Our daily lives is so filled with regulations that nearly everything the moment you stepped out of your house is regulated. From the color you want to paint your house (HOA rules), to your choice to open a food stand on the street (San Diego just created a new code that forbids this in some areas), to drinking beer in some beaches. As an American, you do not even have the freedom to walk to the wall that separates Mexico and the US. Friendship park at Border State park is still closed on the US side, citing some regulation again. Mexicans can already walk to the fence and stick their arms onto the US side. 

History has proven that spreading democracy is just a euphemism for regime change. Stop that BS about democracy. US foreign policy has never been about improving humanity, someone is always playing the game of Civilization in the State department.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> I see...is this where he is the big country invading a small country and that is just wrong?


Kind of like when Mao invaded Tibet, Stalin invaded Hungary, or Hitler invaded Poland?

Yes.  Very much like that.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 3, 2022)

*My Goodness.

Let's play pin the tail
on the
DEFCON !*​


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 3, 2022)

*
TODAY
3-3-2022
9:26 pm UTC*​


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 3, 2022)

V for Vendetta Domino scene HD - YouTube 




*THE 
TRUTH
HURTS

ONE 
ROGUE
NATION
IS 
ALL
IT 
TAKES*​


----------



## blam (Mar 3, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Kind of like when Mao invaded Tibet, Stalin invaded Hungary, or Hitler invaded Poland?
> 
> Yes.  Very much like that.


These leaders are novices...Jackson and Polk are better role models. Once invaded, move the indigenous population to concentration resrvation lands, create false flags and invade all the way to the Pacific. Then repopulate the land with your own population. Another important lesson is never possess the land that is heavily populated because your own population may be diluted. When the US invaded Mexico, Congress decided not to take posession of all of Mexico, one of the arguments then was that the brown Mexican population will dilute the population of the US so it was more advisable to just take the sparsely populated north. You can only imagine if they were not so far sighted.....These leaders you quote above did not follow all the way through so that is why they could never quite keep the land they invaded.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 3, 2022)

Reports are that the Russians shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant.  It's on fire now.  Fingers crossed nothing comes of this.  If something does and Europe s impacted, there's the major escalation.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499537835916816387


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Reports are that the Russians shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant.  It's on fire now.  Fingers crossed nothing comes of this.  If something does and Europe s impacted, there's the major escalation.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499537835916816387


War crimes and crimes against humanity. Starting to look like eff the new world order bs.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> War crimes and crimes against humanity. Starting to look like eff the new world order bs.


Meanwhile..... Your Stooge.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 3, 2022)

blam said:


> So I try to get my news from at least both opposing sides and I am getting really confused.
> 
> On the US side, it looks like Russia could be invading Ukraine at any time.
> 
> ...











						RT America ceases productions and lays off most of its staff
					

RT America will cease productions and lay off most of its staff, according to a memo CNN obtained from T&R Productions, the production company behind the Russian state-funded network.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## blam (Mar 3, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> RT America ceases productions and lays off most of its staff
> 
> 
> RT America will cease productions and lay off most of its staff, according to a memo CNN obtained from T&R Productions, the production company behind the Russian state-funded network.
> ...


That is sad....I normally watch the spanish version though...but it is sad nevertheless. At times when it is most critical to get the story on both sides as a believer in freedom of the press, their access is blocked and censored. They are pretty good. The shows are more entertaining than the Chinese versions CCTV or CGTN which are absolute bore.

My favorite segment is Ahi les va..the host is an absolute eye candy.  The latest episode has links to where viewers can access RT from Europe which is currently blocked.

There are also democracy now which is based in New York and Empire Files by abby martin which can offer alternative insights. And as usual Norm Chomskys comentaries.


----------



## what-happened (Mar 3, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Reports are that the Russians shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant.  It's on fire now.  Fingers crossed nothing comes of this.  If something does and Europe s impacted, there's the major escalation.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499537835916816387


It was likley a firefight on the ground, illum flares appeared to have caused the fires.  Firefighters on site finally. 

Every single news media outlet went bananas with terrible reporting, with one outlet saying radiation levels were above normal, which they weren't.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 4, 2022)

what-happened said:


> It was likley a firefight on the ground, illum flares appeared to have caused the fires.  Firefighters on site finally.
> 
> Every single news media outlet went bananas with terrible reporting, with one outlet saying radiation levels were above normal, which they weren't.


Yeah I thought the coverage of that pretty silly and overly sensationalized. Good to be concerned but when it’s just the outhouse that is a blaze it’s critical but not usually radioactive.


----------



## blam (Mar 4, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Reports are that the Russians shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant.  It's on fire now.  Fingers crossed nothing comes of this.  If something does and Europe s impacted, there's the major escalation.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499537835916816387


Below is coming not just from RT but directly from the Russian government. The other side is that it is a sabotage by right wing groups in the Ukrainian army. All is now under control and firefighters made it in.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 4, 2022)

Isn't it sooooo nice that the WEF has created " this " hot mess in Ukraine 
with Zelensky cast as the lead actor in an attempt to quash the Crimes
committed by the COVID-19 cult.

Wow, all the " mandates " and face diapers can now be disposed of until the 
next manufactured event is needed to suppress a LEADER that is righting
the ship.

Good little lemmings make sure you have your QR codes on your phones
and enjoy the intense thumb pressure of the NWO on you thru the 
social credit score that will limit your every move if YOU don't toe the line.

China Social Credit System [Punishments & Rewards] in 2022 (nhglobalpartners.com) 

This is being implemented here.
Doubt me?
Do your own research.
Just make sure you sit down first.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 4, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499713066082369537


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 4, 2022)

What these two filthy " Creatures " have in common ....




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498882220043509761
They rub their appendages together amid feces.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 4, 2022)

This is an odd twist, but no surprise.
SKY News " Journalists " lying about Russians 
come under fire and possibly wounded approaching 
a Ukrainian check point.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499881672384425992


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Mar 4, 2022)

I want to thank Poland. They are amazing.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 5, 2022)

Former National Security Advisor John Bolton says 'Putin was waiting' for Trump to withdraw the United States from NATO in his second term
					

Bolton, who once worked for Trump, also said the former president's "main interest" in Ukraine was trying to "find Hillary Clinton's computer server."




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## what-happened (Mar 6, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Former National Security Advisor John Bolton says 'Putin was waiting' for Trump to withdraw the United States from NATO in his second term
> 
> 
> Bolton, who once worked for Trump, also said the former president's "main interest" in Ukraine was trying to "find Hillary Clinton's computer server."
> ...


rent free - his fee for occupancy.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 7, 2022)

Well first let me say my heart goes out to all the suffering this crisis has caused. 

However for the sake of my stock fund I'm trying to get my head around where this Ukraine situation is at. Seems to me Putin is planing on taking over Ukraine. And the west is going to reply by financing freedom fighters which will make this whole affair a costly quagmire... that goes on for weeks? Months? I would guess probably not months (from a stock market perspective) as soon it will be spring and by next winter Europe will have found alternative sources of fuel so they aren't over the barrel.   

As for the endgame? Yikes. From Putins perspective it's probably better to take the country. Just as simple observation of Russian leaders; if his ego demands he be seen as on the level of Lenin, Stalin or any of the 'Greats', then he got to take territory? So I expect if he's gone this far he's in it to win it. That said, having watched my own country dabble in the 'nation building' racket... funding an expensive and unpopular war is going to cause a lot of unrest at home. It sure seems like there is a lot of room for events to spiral out of his control.


----------



## blam (Mar 7, 2022)

I turned on the TV for the first time in many many months yesterday and was I in for a surprise. The Ukraine issue is almost undisputedly pro Ukraine....while me in front of my screen trying to understand the issue on both sides reached the conclusion that this issue is so difficult to determine who is at fault.

It reminds of the Iraq war. I recall when Secretary Powell took some drawings to the UN, so many people were pro War and those not pro War were labelled as unpatrotic. For many then, it was obvious that the right thing to do was to go to Iraq. I am seeing the ghost of this mass consensus today.

I am glad I am in good company, this professor probably had the most influence on my thinking, alongside Russia Today. Having watched RT many times, I do sometimes ask if maybe I have been brainwashed by them without realizing, is there somethign on the other side that I am missing, but glad to see that I am in good company.

I do not think Putin wants to keep Ukraine. It is too hard as the majority are not pro Russian. He may keep parts that are pro Russian but the rest are unsustainable and too costly to hang on to. Colonialism ended in the 60s. The more profitable way to colonize another nation is through neo Colonialism (wiki it if you do not know what it means).


----------



## dad4 (Mar 7, 2022)

blam said:


> I turned on the TV for the first time in many many months yesterday and was I in for a surprise. The Ukraine issue is almost undisputedly pro Ukraine....while me in front of my screen trying to understand the issue on both sides reached the conclusion that this issue is so difficult to determine who is at fault.
> 
> It reminds of the Iraq war. I recall when Secretary Powell took some drawings to the UN, so many people were pro War and those not pro War were labelled as unpatrotic. For many then, it was obvious that the right thing to do was to go to Iraq. I am seeing the ghost of this mass consensus today.
> 
> ...


Colonialism ended in the 1960s?  News to me.

I can think of at least a half dozen places held by a foreign power against the will of the local population.

Belarus, Tibet, Xinjiang, Burma, Darfur, and Western Sahara come to mind.

Interestingly, in four of the six cases, China supplied the weapons to suppress the local population.  Maybe President Pooh Bear will fund this civilian slaughter by buying oil instead of his usual pattern of simply supplying guns.  Mix it up a little.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 7, 2022)

blam said:


> I turned on the TV for the first time in many many months yesterday and was I in for a surprise. The Ukraine issue is almost undisputedly pro Ukraine....while me in front of my screen trying to understand the issue on both sides reached the conclusion that this issue is so difficult to determine who is at fault.
> 
> It reminds of the Iraq war. I recall when Secretary Powell took some drawings to the UN, so many people were pro War and those not pro War were labelled as unpatrotic. For many then, it was obvious that the right thing to do was to go to Iraq. I am seeing the ghost of this mass consensus today.
> 
> ...


Obviously we're both guessing... but the only reason I doubt Putin is planning on taking the whole cake and not parts... is he's already got control of the parts and his war machine is rolling on. IMHO he's too smart to waste money, prestige and more sanctions laying waste to the rest of the country in order to just give it up. Letting NATO $$$ rebuild a ravaged post war Ukraine is the equivalent of Ukraine joining NATO as a charter member right on his doorstep.

That might be where this ends, but that's not what he wants.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 8, 2022)

Russians enjoying their last McDonalds for a while.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501310641230987273


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 8, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Well first let me say my heart goes out to all the suffering this crisis has caused.
> 
> However for the sake of my stock fund I'm trying to get my head around where this Ukraine situation is at. Seems to me Putin is planing on taking over Ukraine. And the west is going to reply by financing freedom fighters which will make this whole affair a costly quagmire... that goes on for weeks? Months? I would guess probably not months (from a stock market perspective) as soon it will be spring and by next winter Europe will have found alternative sources of fuel so they aren't over the barrel.
> 
> As for the endgame? Yikes. From Putins perspective it's probably better to take the country. Just as simple observation of Russian leaders; if his ego demands he be seen as on the level of Lenin, Stalin or any of the 'Greats', then he got to take territory? So I expect if he's gone this far he's in it to win it. That said, having watched my own country dabble in the 'nation building' racket... funding an expensive and unpopular war is going to cause a lot of unrest at home. It sure seems like there is a lot of room for events to spiral out of his control.


For the limited purposes of your stock portfolio here, you should plan on a prolonged stagflationary event.  Gas hasn't even hit the highest its going to go and the summer will be rocky.  Other things such as food prices will be impacted since Russia and the Ukraine are such big producers of wheat and the competition in the world will now be for remaining stocks (such as the US/Canada).  "Buy an electric vehicle" is not a viable option for most working class Americans.  This will dump gasoline (excuse the pun) on the inflationary pressures the West is undergoing, and what's worse is the fed seems reluctant to do anything since the war began because it knows the world is teetering on a recession.


----------



## espola (Mar 8, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> For the limited purposes of your stock portfolio here, you should plan on a prolonged stagflationary event.  Gas hasn't even hit the highest its going to go and the summer will be rocky.  Other things such as food prices will be impacted since Russia and the Ukraine are such big producers of wheat and the competition in the world will now be for remaining stocks (such as the US/Canada).  "Buy an electric vehicle" is not a viable option for most working class Americans.  This will dump gasoline (excuse the pun) on the inflationary pressures the West is undergoing, and what's worse is the fed seems reluctant to do anything since the war began because it knows the world is teetering on a recession.


How do you know that they know that?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 8, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> For the limited purposes of your stock portfolio here, you should plan on a prolonged stagflationary event.  Gas hasn't even hit the highest its going to go and the summer will be rocky.  Other things such as food prices will be impacted since Russia and the Ukraine are such big producers of wheat and the competition in the world will now be for remaining stocks (such as the US/Canada).  "Buy an electric vehicle" is not a viable option for most working class Americans.  This will dump gasoline (excuse the pun) on the inflationary pressures the West is undergoing, and what's worse is the fed seems reluctant to do anything since the war began because it knows the world is teetering on a recession.


There are four possible outcomes....the fifth a Putin victory where he replaces the Ukrainian government with a friendly one that takes control of the Ukraine is almost gone (it requires taking out Zelensky and there being no viable replacement that steps up for the Ukrainian government).  One, there is a negotiated offramp which by definition will involve some concessions from Ukraine.  Two, a prolonged occupation of all or  part of the country (partitioned) with a war that goes on for months if not years including an insurgency in the Russian held areas.  Three, Putin is overthrown and Russia leaves with minimal concessions.  Four, an escalation which brings the West and Russia into direct conflict and on brink of nuclear exchange.

Time is not on Putin's side.  The Russian economy has only begun its collapse and its going to get to Great Depression levels there.  The body bags are going to begin to flow back.  And with time every day he's spending billions of dollars to keep the offensive going while the Ukrainian side can replace its much less extensive materials from the west.  The longer this goes on options 1 and 2 become less likely and 3 and 4 become more likely.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 8, 2022)

espola said:


> How do you know that they know that?


Projections I'm seeing from risk management colleagues forecasting what's going to happen.


----------



## blam (Mar 8, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Russians enjoying their last McDonalds for a while.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501310641230987273


The irony is these are all very good healthy choices forced on the Russians. No coke and mcdonalds and ikea. Wow! Wished we could do that here.


----------



## blam (Mar 8, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Colonialism ended in the 1960s?  News to me.
> 
> I can think of at least a half dozen places held by a foreign power against the will of the local population.
> 
> ...


I think I mentioned in previous posts before. I am not familiar with the list you have there, but whenever I hear anti china propaganda, the first thing comes to mind : Falun gong propaganda. 

I have wasted enough time chasing after the truths and found them to be debunked eventually that nowadays anything anti China I would assume is nothing more than propaganda. Some people would say these are CPC propaganda but CPC propaganda really sucks and they are boring. Ever watched CGTN or CCTV or whatever they call it? There are real life bloggers living in China who are doing a much better job than Chinese government propaganda.

As far as Tibet and Xinjiang, these are autonomous regions. The left, aka the communists like to do this to preserve the local culture. This is in constrast to colonization of places like California, Arizona, Texas where they are completely repopulated. Polk and Jackson are who we should learn from. They are the masters.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 8, 2022)

blam said:


> I think I mentioned in previous posts before. I am not familiar with the list you have there, but whenever I hear anti china propaganda, the first thing comes to mind : Falun gong propaganda.
> 
> I have wasted enough time chasing after the truths and found them to be debunked eventually that nowadays anything anti China I would assume is nothing more than propaganda. Some people would say these are CPC propaganda but CPC propaganda really sucks and they are boring. Ever watched CGTN or CCTV or whatever they call it? There are real life bloggers living in China who are doing a much better job than Chinese government propaganda.
> 
> As far as Tibet and Xinjiang, these are autonomous regions. The left, aka the communists like to do this to preserve the local culture. This is in constrast to colonization of places like California, Arizona, Texas where they are completely repopulated. Polk and Jackson are who we should learn from. They are the masters.


No one outside the PRC payroll cares about Falun Gong the way you do.

To the rest of us, they're harmless.  Some middle aged women who like doing Tai Chi with a bit of spiritualism on the side.  

What are you afraid of?  They are about as threatening as  a sorority girl with healing crystals.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 8, 2022)

blam said:


> The irony is these are all very good healthy choices forced on the Russians. No coke and mcdonalds and ikea. Wow! Wished we could do that here.


The apple, microsoft and chip bans are the ones that hurt.  The Russians are going to have to use their Tianjing Handibooks.  Between having to wear knock off counterfeit clothes, not being able to travel, not being able to get a job, not having their iphones and the possibility of conscription, the teens and 20 somethings will not be happy, and that's always where it starts.


----------



## Jar!23 (Mar 8, 2022)

blam said:


> The irony is these are all very good healthy choices forced on the Russians. No coke and mcdonalds and ikea. Wow! Wished we could do that here.


Really?  You want free choice to be taken away?  Everyone here, including you, is free to post and express their own opinions unlike in other countries.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

blam said:


> I think I mentioned in previous posts before. I am not familiar with the list you have there, but whenever I hear anti china propaganda, the first thing comes to mind : Falun gong propaganda.
> 
> I have wasted enough time chasing after the truths and found them to be debunked eventually that nowadays anything anti China I would assume is nothing more than propaganda. Some people would say these are CPC propaganda but CPC propaganda really sucks and they are boring. Ever watched CGTN or CCTV or whatever they call it? There are real life bloggers living in China who are doing a much better job than Chinese government propaganda.
> 
> As far as Tibet and Xinjiang, these are autonomous regions. The left, aka the communists like to do this to preserve the local culture. This is in constrast to colonization of places like California, Arizona, Texas where they are completely repopulated. Polk and Jackson are who we should learn from. They are the masters.


I'm trying to follow your logic here. So because of the trail of tears 200 years ago you don't want to call out China for anything? Hmm...

Anyway, I spent a couple days in Kashgar in China's Southern Xinjiang province a few years back... and propaganda or not it was pretty crazy. Barbed wired fences around gas stations, in stead of regular police officers they wear full riot gear with shields and batons (and wow are there a lot of them), and of course random checkpoint stops every 100 miles or so on all the highways.

That said, life in China isn't that bad if you're an ethnically Han Chinese. Sort of like Pre-Civil war life in America under Jackson or Polk was pretty good if you were a white European. Which is sort of why I personally would say there is no one better than America to point out the folly of exploiting minorities, and don't just write it off as empty spin.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> There are four possible outcomes....the fifth a Putin victory where he replaces the Ukrainian government with a friendly one that takes control of the Ukraine is almost gone (it requires taking out Zelensky and there being no viable replacement that steps up for the Ukrainian government).  One, there is a negotiated offramp which by definition will involve some concessions from Ukraine.  Two, a prolonged occupation of all or  part of the country (partitioned) with a war that goes on for months if not years including an insurgency in the Russian held areas.  Three, Putin is overthrown and Russia leaves with minimal concessions.  Four, an escalation which brings the West and Russia into direct conflict and on brink of nuclear exchange.
> 
> Time is not on Putin's side.  The Russian economy has only begun its collapse and its going to get to Great Depression levels there.  The body bags are going to begin to flow back.  And with time every day he's spending billions of dollars to keep the offensive going while the Ukrainian side can replace its much less extensive materials from the west.  The longer this goes on options 1 and 2 become less likely and 3 and 4 become more likely.


Yea I agree with your assessment, although I don't know that this going to nuclear war is realistic. Putin can bloviate, but the reality is he's dependent on Chinese investment to keep his economy going. And from a the new found unity of the Western Powers to the potential of a worldwide recession that could threaten Xi's hold on power... I see very few positives in all of this from the perspective of the Chinese. Especially if Putin starts seriously talking about nuking China's customer base.  









						Russian Mothers Say Their Sons Sent to Ukraine as 'Cannon Fodder'
					

"We were all deceived, all deceived. They were sent there as cannon fodder. They are young. They were unprepared," one Russian mother said.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## watfly (Mar 9, 2022)

Remember when:








						How Trump's Syria strike could spiral into World War III
					

It does not take a Tom Clancy-like effort to imagine the unthinkable



					theweek.com
				




I say send the MIG's in, we need to stop tip toeing around Putin and his war crimes.  I realize it apples and oranges, but I think we have to stop worrying about provoking Putin.  He needs to be dealt with.  I'm also in favor of a humanitarian no fly zone.   Putin is a pussy with nuclear weapons.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> Remember when:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Idk... at this point Putin seems on track to lose? Even his own people are upset with him and the way things are going.

If we let Polish jets landing at American military bases kill thousands of Russian soldiers stuck in the convoys- that could spiral off in a bad direction. We'd lose any hope of China's support, and also likely the Europeans who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas.


----------



## blam (Mar 9, 2022)

dad4 said:


> No one outside the PRC payroll cares about Falun Gong the way you do.
> 
> To the rest of us, they're harmless.  Some middle aged women who like doing Tai Chi with a bit of spiritualism on the side.
> 
> What are you afraid of?  They are about as threatening as  a sorority girl with healing crystals.


Actually, you tell me why Falun gong is so anti China. My first potential interaction with Falun gong may have been a meeting at UCSD. I knew too little about Chinese exercises then to know if it was Falun gong or just an exercise group. I only attended one meeting so I dont know and at that time, I have never heard of Falun Gong.

But for sure a few years later I used to pick up the free newspaper in order to improve my Chinese reading and that was a publication from Falun Gong. The ton of anti Communist propaganda was overwhelming. Propaganda becasue many of its accusations then like organ harvesting was completely false and did not pass common sense test. (I could see the potentiality of these as isolated cases of a corrupt official gone rogue but to present the news as official government policy did not pass common sense, the country could generate a while lot more sustainable wealth through technology, construction, trade etc. etc. than organ harvesting). 

Of course, I still continue picking up the free paper from Falun gong to try to improve my Chinese.


----------



## blam (Mar 9, 2022)

Jar!23 said:


> Really?  You want free choice to be taken away?  Everyone here, including you, is free to post and express their own opinions unlike in other countries.


Actually, you would be surprised. Just last week, I received my first facebook posting removed. It was a link to a video describing a peer reviewed scientific article regarding  how covid mrna vaccines is altering the dna of liver cells. 

Governments allow free speech as long as the speech has no material impact. You should know in the US itself, during the 1920s and 30s when the communist movement was strong, the US government did censor Communist publications. 

Chomskys book called manufacturing consent is a book that explains how the government  control the media and is alternative to censorship. Its an eye opening book. Manufacturing consent is even more powerful than censorship. Censorship can provoke the exact opposite intended consequence.


----------



## blam (Mar 9, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I'm trying to follow your logic here. So because of the trail of tears 200 years ago you don't want to call out China for anything? Hmm...
> 
> Anyway, I spent a couple days in Kashgar in China's Southern Xinjiang province a few years back... and propaganda or not it was pretty crazy. Barbed wired fences around gas stations, in stead of regular police officers they wear full riot gear with shields and batons (and wow are there a lot of them), and of course random checkpoint stops every 100 miles or so on all the highways.
> 
> That said, life in China isn't that bad if you're an ethnically Han Chinese. Sort of like Pre-Civil war life in America under Jackson or Polk was pretty good if you were a white European. Which is sort of why I personally would say there is no one better than America to point out the folly of exploiting minorities, and don't just write it off as empty spin.


I did not say anything about not calling out China. What I am saying is that if China really want to land grab these regions and keep them for centuries, then China should follow the footsteps of Polk and Jackson by integrating these regions into China instead of making autonomous regions like what the Communists like to do. These would include eradicating their local culture and language and moving large population into the region. Building reservation camps so that the indigneous can be repopulated just like what Jackson did. Now, this is if their goal is land grab them like what Polk and Jackson wanted. Why create self governing autonomous regions unless they have a different objective?


----------



## WestOfFive (Mar 9, 2022)

blam said:


> I did not say anything about not calling out China. What I am saying is that if China really want to land grab these regions and keep them for centuries, then China should follow the footsteps of Polk and Jackson by integrating these regions into China instead of making autonomous regions like what the Communists like to do. These would include eradicating their local culture and language and moving large population into the region. Building reservation camps so that the indigneous can be repopulated just like what Jackson did. Now, this is if their goal is land grab them like what Polk and Jackson wanted. Why create self governing autonomous regions unless they have a different objective?


China’s military hierarchy has long fretted that modern Chinese men, raised in “one child” families, lack the martial vigour to wage war. An influential 2010 paper by Admiral Luo Yuan railed against the “bad phenomenon” of effeminate men as an imminent disaster to the nation-state. Xi himself has said the collapse of the Soviet Union was because “no one was man enough” to hold it together.


----------



## watfly (Mar 9, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Idk... at this point Putin seems on track to lose? Even his own people are upset with him and the way things are going.
> 
> If we let Polish jets landing at American military bases kill thousands of Russian soldiers stuck in the convoys- that could spiral off in a bad direction. We'd lose any hope of China's support, and also likely the Europeans who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas.


Yeah I hear you.  My concern is that Putin flattens Ukraine and kills 100's of thousands before he "loses".  I'm not even sure what Putin loses looks like.  He doesn't seem to care if he becomes a pariah to the world or even Russians.  I don't know that anything other than him being overthrown is a Putin loss.  In my mind Ukraine winning is only temporary.  I'm afraid that he may use tactical nuclear because it may be the only way to achieve a military victory.  Best case is he cruise missiles, thermo and cluster bombs the shit out of Ukraine.

No real good solutions here.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

blam said:


> I did not say anything about not calling out China. What I am saying is that if China really want to land grab these regions and keep them for centuries, then China should follow the footsteps of Polk and Jackson by integrating these regions into China instead of making autonomous regions like what the Communists like to do. These would include eradicating their local culture and language and moving large population into the region. Building reservation camps so that the indigneous can be repopulated just like what Jackson did. Now, this is if their goal is land grab them like what Polk and Jackson wanted. Why create self governing autonomous regions unless they have a different objective?


Well I guess the first issue is China is a signatory member of the Geneva Convention and therefor the nations leaders would be criminally liable for the consequences, should they break the treaty and ever want to do some travel abroad.

Also, just for kicks since I would add that if the Chinese are into culturally cleansing colonized territory as your suggesting, I’m not sure pre-industrial revolutionary figures like Jackson and Polk were all that successful models for them to follow. Better examples would be Stalin’s purges, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao’s Cultural Revolution, the Japanese sacking of Manchuria.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 9, 2022)

watfly said:


> Yeah I hear you.  My concern is that Putin flattens Ukraine and kills 100's of thousands before he "loses".  I'm not even sure what Putin loses looks like.  He doesn't seem to care if he becomes a pariah to the world or even Russians.  I don't know that anything other than him being overthrown is a Putin loss.  In my mind Ukraine winning is only temporary.  I'm afraid that he may use tactical nuclear because it may be the only way to achieve a military victory.  Best case is he cruise missiles, thermo and cluster bombs the shit out of Ukraine.
> 
> No real good solutions here.


Yeah I agree, no great solutions. The best we can hope for is to make this miserable and expensive enough for Putin that future strong men check themselves, before they wreck themselves.


----------



## Desert Hound (Mar 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> "Buy an electric vehicle" is not a viable option


It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 9, 2022)

If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.









						White House warns Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine
					

White House press secretary Jen Psaki on Wednesday warned of the potential for Russia to use chemical weapons in Ukraine after Moscow alleged the United States was housing biological weapons in Ukr…




					thehill.com


----------



## espola (Mar 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.


If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Self-declared cooler heads had their way in ‘45, ‘56 and ‘68.   We abandoned hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe by bending whenever and wherever Russia pushed.  

Cooler heads had their way in Aleppo, Libya, and Grozny.  It doesn’t seem to work.   Wagging a finger while buying their oil is not a winning strategy.

The thing that actually worked was standing up to the Soviets and matching their buildup.  There is a reason the first cold war ended under Reagan and not Carter.


----------



## watfly (Mar 9, 2022)

espola said:


> If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.


And an updated panel at their home or apartment with multiple outlets to plug into.  Having done a number of commercial installations at our low electrical use properties, I'm doubting we have enough roof space for panels to power everyone's electric vehicles without massive solar farms in the desert.


----------



## blam (Mar 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you get the news that bio labs financed by the US were found in Ukraine? I have avoided the mainstream media this time so I am not sure if this is being reported by the CNNs. Or did the CNN publish a news report only for the purpose to debunk the claim instead of reporting the claim. Especially during war time, I expect propaganda from both sides. Just checking.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 9, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Self-declared cooler heads had their way in ‘45, ‘56 and ‘68.   We abandoned hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe by bending whenever and wherever Russia pushed.
> 
> Cooler heads had their way in Aleppo, Libya, and Grozny.  It doesn’t seem to work.   Wagging a finger while buying their oil is not a winning strategy.
> 
> The thing that actually worked was standing up to the Soviets and matching their buildup.  There is a reason the first cold war ended under Reagan and not Carter.


I agree we need to take the pain and cut off their oil.  It's going to have a profound and shockingly underestimated push on our own economy (I'm seeing some projections of eight dollar gas by summer by some colleagues in the oil and gas industry).  At eight dollars, it has waves out including food prices, shipping, commodities, and even if it is worth it for some people to work.   I agree it's a price that needs to be paid.

But as we've discussed, I don't think a no fly zone is the way to go unless you want to risk nuclear war.  By definition it involves NATO airstrikes into Russian territory (including the loss of civilian life since Putin will no doubt use the insurgent playbook and stick his anti air in schools), and likely Russian retaliation with cruise missiles and the first line combat aircraft it has in reserve to Poland, Germany, and Romania to hit airbases.  You are gambling that the US action will cause the generals to throw out Putin, because we've established already Putin is not acting fully rationally.

It's ok to argue this position, but let's be clear you are arguing for a risk of nuclear war now (as opposed to the future where Putin, who may not even be there, may or may not be in a position to take further action considering how bankrupt he is and will grow weaker year over year).  That's just funny coming from you, considering how both COVID freaked you were and how concerned about climate change (even a few tactical nukes is a climate disaster).

I had a tangentel touch BTW on the Reagan cold war policy.  My college advisor was one of the people who contributed to the evil empire speech.  I was pro hawk.  But even the hawks were clear that if we had militarily intervened with actual troops or planes in Hungary and Czechoslovankia, WWIII would be a likely result.


----------



## what-happened (Mar 9, 2022)

espola said:


> If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.


yes of course, right after the little fairy sprinkles fairy dust everywhere.


----------



## espola (Mar 9, 2022)

what-happened said:


> yes of course, right after the little fairy sprinkles fairy dust everywhere.


You are forgetting the "magically" part -- it works both ways.

On a more serious note, the rate of growth of home solar systems in California approximates the rate of growth of electric car sales.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 9, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I agree we need to take the pain and cut off their oil.  It's going to have a profound and shockingly underestimated push on our own economy (I'm seeing some projections of eight dollar gas by summer by some colleagues in the oil and gas industry).  At eight dollars, it has waves out including food prices, shipping, commodities, and even if it is worth it for some people to work.   I agree it's a price that needs to be paid.
> 
> But as we've discussed, I don't think a no fly zone is the way to go unless you want to risk nuclear war.  By definition it involves NATO airstrikes into Russian territory (including the loss of civilian life since Putin will no doubt use the insurgent playbook and stick his anti air in schools), and likely Russian retaliation with cruise missiles and the first line combat aircraft it has in reserve to Poland, Germany, and Romania to hit airbases.  You are gambling that the US action will cause the generals to throw out Putin, because we've established already Putin is not acting fully rationally.
> 
> ...



At some point this has to stop.
And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba
and all of the lunatic activists in this once Great Country called America.
Someone needs to tap the current " resident " in the snot locker and tell him
to grow up and take the lead or take your sorry team home and let someone
else give it a go as an ADULT.
The " resident " likes to talk tough, but his pacifist actions speak volumes.
Putin is no pussy, he's a piece of crap thug tyrant, but he's no pussy.
He's got the " resident's " number and it's 0.
Biden is a Bronze team with AYSO players behind him up against a battle
hardened LaLiga team with piss bottles at the ready.
The tough talk only lasts so long.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 9, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.


Agree, I stayed in a hotel for Surf Thanksgiving and I was shocked that it didn't have a single EV charging station. We love to drive and need to drive in this vast country of ours. Being able to pull in, fill up and head out again is just part & parcel of that. Having to pull in and wait for an hour or 2 to charge up to go again , or queue to wait for a spot to then wait ... ain't going to hack it.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 9, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Yeah I agree, no great solutions. The best we can hope for is to make this miserable and expensive enough for Putin that future strong men check themselves, before they wreck themselves.


I think the next escalation (for the west) is along the lines of with us or against us, specifically with China & India. I wasn't a Bush fan as such, but he made it crystal clear to the world, and the world knew the US was 100% serious.

I don't think they should be allowed to sit on the sidelines. Just as the west is on the road to devastating Russia's economy, it can devastate their's also. Of course, there is enormous blow back on the west with that action. I think the Europeans would probably go with it, as their threat is real and local. I don't think the Americans would take the pain though, mores the pity. IMV, this is a real fight and the US is in it, we need to deal with it, and take the pain for the long term gain.

If Putin becomes isolated from China & India, I think he falls internally.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 9, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> At some point this has to stop.
> And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba
> and all of the lunatic activists in this once Great Country called America.
> Someone needs to tap the current " resident " in the snot locker and tell him
> ...


I actually agree with some of that ... I must have entered the twilight zone ... I need to lie down!!!


----------



## blam (Mar 10, 2022)

thirteenknots said:


> And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba


I do not know why you are playing the victim card here. USA is the one who goes to these regions of the world and instead of promoting policies that raises the standard of living in these regions, it tries to pit neighbour against neighbour. Imagine you go to a group of friends with 5 people. You are the one who is trying to cause them to fight each other. Super anti social behavior.

Putin is definitely the right leader for Russia, compared to Yeltsin. There may be a better leader out there that I am not aware of. When Putin became president of Russia, Russia began to have order. Its GDP began to track upwards. Put yourself in Russian shoes, would you have picked Yeltsin or Putin? 

Btw, you miss putting Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan on that list. These countries still do need help. Or was the goal just to dispose off the leader making sure these nations are poorer or less powerful and never about making these countries more richer and powerful?


----------



## watfly (Mar 10, 2022)

blam said:


> I do not know why you are playing the victim card here. USA is the one who goes to these regions of the world and instead of promoting policies that raises the standard of living in these regions, it tries to pit neighbour against neighbour. Imagine you go to a group of friends with 5 people. You are the one who is trying to cause them to fight each other. Super anti social behavior.
> 
> Putin is definitely the right leader for Russia, compared to Yeltsin. There may be a better leader out there that I am not aware of. When Putin became president of Russia, Russia began to have order. Its GDP began to track upwards. Put yourself in Russian shoes, would you have picked Yeltsin or Putin?
> 
> Btw, you miss putting Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan on that list. These countries still do need help. Or was the goal just to dispose off the leader making sure these nations are poorer or less powerful and never about making these countries more richer and powerful?


You do realize Putin came to power through a "false flag" operation where he/FSB killed 100's of Russian apartment residents.

Putin has never needed an excuse to escalate anything.  He allegedly has bombed 18 hospitals in Ukraine and killed women and children who were trying to escape the country under a ceasefire.

I will stop short of a no fly zone, but send the f'ing MIG's.  Maybe the administration will borrow an extra pair from Zelensky, we know he has plenty.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 10, 2022)

I don’t know about the rest of all ya all but in the time I have been in these various forums Dominic has provided I for one NEVER would have imagined in a million years any poster in this sub-forum of a soccer site would be in here showing their love for Putin.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I don’t know about the rest of all ya all but in the time I have been in these various forums Dominic has provided I for one NEVER would have imagined in a million years any poster in this sub-forum of a soccer site would be in here showing their love for Putin.


I don't disagree with what you're saying and was sort of thinking the same. But then I tried to check myself as regardless of the motives of any poster the brute reality is as China grows in power and influence, Western economies better start to be ready to talk about why freedom, democracy and the western way of life is worth fighting for; as the Chinese are confident about their top down model of government. And we should expect them to push for it to take over...


----------



## blam (Mar 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I don’t know about the rest of all ya all but in the time I have been in these various forums Dominic has provided I for one NEVER would have imagined in a million years any poster in this sub-forum of a soccer site would be in here showing their love for Putin.


The rationale is obvious. Food on the table matters matters most. Financial freedom matters most. Putin restored order. Take a look at the GDP of Russia since Putin came to power and compare that to Yeltsin.

What about Putin is not to like if you were a Russian compared to Yeltsin? I can see a good argument for a potential better leader than Putin, but Putin vs Yeltsin is an obvious choice, Putin unless you are not Russian and wish Russia the worst.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 11, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> I don’t know about the rest of all ya all but in the time I have been in these various forums Dominic has provided I for one NEVER would have imagined in a million years any poster in this sub-forum of a soccer site would be in here showing their love for Putin.


This Massive misrepresentation of a post coming from the slug who
fully supported the 100% Lies put forth by Adam Schiff/(Ed Buck) via 
Alaxander Vindman and Maria Yovanovitch.
Please ...you and your ilk are the reason we are in this place and time.
How much AMERICAN TAXPAYER MONEY is going to be laundered
thru this manufactured fiasco in Ukraine.
Ukraine, one of the most CORRUPT " Nations " on the planet.
We ( TRUE Americans ) know Putin is akin to the residue that resides
in the bottom of a toilet.
We ( TRUE Americans ) also know that individuals like you cannot 
face the facts that YOU supported/support the very same ideology
currently emanating from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

A TRUE AMERICAN admits their mistakes, it's time you grow up and 
admit you and your ilk installed a GLOBAL Mistake that is pushing for
WWIII to hide their crimes they committed against humanity.

" Resident " Biden and his administration are the pussies in the school 
yard who goad others into a fight to hide their misdeeds.


----------



## blam (Mar 11, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I don't disagree with what you're saying and was sort of thinking the same. But then I tried to check myself as regardless of the motives of any poster the brute reality is as China grows in power and influence, Western economies better start to be ready to talk about why freedom, democracy and the western way of life is worth fighting for; as the Chinese are confident about their top down model of government. And we should expect them to push for it to take over...


No need to talk. Great thinkers have already written books about them and they are much more credible than politicians. From John Locke to John Stuart Mill to Rousseau and to Marx. Marx is really more economics than political but the 2 are closely complementary. I would also add Nietzsche to that list although that is for completeness, for living a great life is not just about being in a good political system but also includes the individual principles.

Many of my idols were the founding fathers of US. One of them introduced me to atheism, Thomas Paine. Its led me to agree that religion should be banned if that is possible. And may I add, you got not a democracy but a republic. Yes, I admit, even though I love democracy I understand the founding fathers did not leave us with a democracy. That came through decades of civil rights struggle and especially the 14th amendment, for without it, none of the 10 amendments would have been the infamous bill of rights.

To me, the Western way of life is a world without religion, not freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is a value gone haywired. Religion is what deluded mankind and gave rise to monarches through beliefs in superstition. Do dont hijack the phrase "Western way of life" with way life is now, rather that phrase should mean the way it was envisioned by Locke, and Rosseau. 

Finally, you are delusioned if you think that Americas foreign policy is about spreading democracy or western way of life. Its all about regime change hiding under the cloak of spreading democracy. Maybe you are just naive if you believe it is under good intentions. 


Just one to add, I do think the study of western philosophy is important especialy those during the Enlightenment period. I cannto speak for countries in Japan or Korea but I always got a sense that perhaps western philosophy is not taught in those countries. Confucianism thoughts should be actively challenged in those countries. As for China, China was shaped in a small way by Marx(more so by Lenin in my opinion and of course Mao), so they are are bit more Westernized compared to Japan or Korea. But I also have came across many from there that have not read Marx unless they took a special class in school and that I think is a shame.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 11, 2022)

blam said:


> No need to talk. Great thinkers have already written books about them and they are much more credible than politicians. From John Locke to John Stuart Mill to Rousseau and to Marx. Marx is really more economics than political but the 2 are closely complementary. I would also add Nietzsche to that list although that is for completeness, for living a great life is not just about being in a good political system but also includes the individual principles.
> 
> Many of my idols were the founding fathers of US. One of them introduced me to atheism, Thomas Paine. Its led me to agree that religion should be banned if that is possible. And may I add, you got not a democracy but a republic. Yes, I admit, even though I love democracy I understand the founding fathers did not leave us with a democracy. That came through decades of civil rights struggle and especially the 14th amendment, for without it, none of the 10 amendments would have been the infamous bill of rights.
> 
> ...


Why does this remind me of the bar scene from Good Will Hunting and you’re not Will?


----------



## blam (Mar 14, 2022)

All Russian sponsorred channels have been banned from youtube world wide.

The other side of the propaganda, the NYT,  wrote a eulogy on Russia Today which is quite enlightening. I had previously thought that the Russian government had a strong hand control over Russia Today and considered it the unofficial spokesperson for the Russian government. Apparently, I was wrong. They even got the invasion of Ukraine wrong because the government has not fed them the info, so the news analyst were making their own predictions without guidance from the higher ups.


_“I had complete free rein over whatever I wanted to say and was never censored,” Mr. Camp said in a video that he posted on Patreon, a subscription site for creators and artists.

“People want to make out RT America to be this crazy propaganda network where we have a hotline to Vladimir Putin and he rings my Bat Phone regularly,” Manila Chan, a news host for eight years, said recently on her podcast, “Chan’s Mouth.”_









						What It Was Like to Work for Russian State Television
					

Until RT America ended abruptly, life as a journalist there was “actually so normal.”




					www.nytimes.com
				




With Russia Today now banned from all platforms, now my brain will just say what CNN wants me to say. No more dissent. No more thinking outside the box. Think mainstream. Think like the rest of the world. Be like everyone. I submit to the collective.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 14, 2022)

Some quiet escalations are taking place:

-Looks like China has rebuffed US warnings and is going to support Russia for some level
-Russia is threatening to nationalize the assets of companies that have withdrawn or paused from Russia
-Russia is striking now near the Polish border at places where volunteers and supplies are being assembled.
-Russia has imported Syrian mercenaries into Ukraine.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 14, 2022)

blam said:


> All Russian sponsorred channels have been banned from youtube world wide.
> 
> The other side of the propaganda, the NYT,  wrote a eulogy on Russia Today which is quite enlightening. I had previously thought that the Russian government had a strong hand control over Russia Today and considered it the unofficial spokesperson for the Russian government. Apparently, I was wrong. They even got the invasion of Ukraine wrong because the government has not fed them the info, so the news analyst were making their own predictions without guidance from the higher ups.
> 
> ...


If you wish to support murderous dictators who wish to butcher the innocent that is your right because this is America. People have been and are poisoned, tortured and murdered for far less in dictatorships around the world like Russia.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 14, 2022)

blam said:


> All Russian sponsorred channels have been banned from youtube world wide.
> 
> The other side of the propaganda, the NYT,  wrote a eulogy on Russia Today which is quite enlightening. I had previously thought that the Russian government had a strong hand control over Russia Today and considered it the unofficial spokesperson for the Russian government. Apparently, I was wrong. They even got the invasion of Ukraine wrong because the government has not fed them the info, so the news analyst were making their own predictions without guidance from the higher ups.
> 
> ...


Good point.

You should go to Moscow and carry a big sign saying "Free Speech Now!"

That would be a good way for you to support RT and the other oppressed Russian news outlets.

Don't worry.  Freedom of assembly is enshrined in the Russian constitution.   You'll be fine.


----------



## blam (Mar 15, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> If you wish to support murderous dictators who wish to butcher the innocent that is your right because this is America. People have been and are poisoned, tortured and murdered for far less in dictatorships around the world like Russia.


Oh no...I do not. But that is one issue we have in the world today. There is too much fake news. How do you know the people who is telling you that Putin is a murderer is telling the truth and not taking things out of context? I have been dissapointed countless times by the main stream media in the past. 

One of the earliest news I debunked and one of my biggest dissappoinment was known as the Tiananmen Masaccre in China. I was led to believe that thousands of people were crushed by tanks on Tiananmen Square by the anti Communists. I mean, *its baked in the name of the event*, Tiananmen Square *Massacre*. Turns out not a single person died there on June 4 1989 on the square. I knew this after I watched a Western made documentary called Gates of Heavenly Peace which is made by PBS, I think. I repeat, Western made documentary, not CPC propaganda. 

With so much propaganda in the news, the best way for a non professional like me who lacks the time to do their own research to uncover the truth is to get the story from both sides, like a juror before passing judgment. You think you will get the truth about Putin from NYT? No way.

To see the eyewitness account that no one died on June 4, 1989 in Tiananmen Square, see at 2:56:00 with voice over in English below , hope you get as dissapointed as I was and that it shakes your strong belief in the mainstream media.


----------



## blam (Mar 15, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Good point.
> 
> You should go to Moscow and carry a big sign saying "Free Speech Now!"
> 
> ...


When push comes to shove, no country will enjoy such freedom even in the USA. Courts will be creative to justify the sentencing. The freedom exist if it can be tolerated as long as it does not shake the system.   An example....

*Dennis v. United States*




			{{meta.fullTitle}}


----------



## dad4 (Mar 15, 2022)

blam said:


> When push comes to shove, no country will enjoy such freedom even in the USA. Courts will be creative to justify the sentencing. The freedom exist if it can be tolerated as long as it does not shake the system.   An example....
> 
> *Dennis v. United States*
> 
> ...


The Dennis decision came down June 4.  Interesting day, that one. 

Tell you what.  Let’s trade banners to mark the occasion this year.

You unfurl a banner in Beijing that says “6/4/1989”.   I unfurl a banner in Washington that says “6/4/1951”.  

We wait to see which one of us gets arrested.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 15, 2022)

dad4 said:


> The Dennis decision came down June 4.  Interesting day, that one.
> 
> Tell you what.  Let’s trade banners to mark the occasion this year.
> 
> ...


Grace can raise the June 4, 1944 banner in Paris.  It’ll be a wonderful June 4 Festival.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 15, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Grace can raise the June 4, 1944 banner in Paris.  It’ll be a wonderful June 4 Festival.


I rather go to Marin and unfurl June 4, 2162 and a Star Fleet Academy flag.

The talking heads on the TV are saying the Russians (short of a massive intervention by China) will run out of offensive capabilities in 2 weeks.

The talk coming out of the Russian think tanks is a little bit scary.  They are urging Putin to issue a recognition that by sanctioning Russia and by supplying the Ukraine, a state of war effectively exists with NATO (echoing words Tucker Carlson has already used) and to unleash secondary actions (such as sanction some of which were already announced today, appropriations, cyber attacks and fly overs) against the western nations and to interdict supplies inside Poland.  Their thinking is the west (particularly France, Italy and Germany) are bluffing and don't have the stomach to stare down Russia in a chicken race to war....that they'll force the US to the negotiating table to remove the sanctions and give Putin what he wants in the Ukraine.  Given Putin is almost out of options if the Chinese don't rescue him, the chances of the Russian think tank scenario is substantially rising.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 15, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I rather go to Marin and unfurl June 4, 2162 and a Star Fleet Academy flag.
> 
> The talking heads on the TV are saying the Russians (short of a massive intervention by China) will run out of offensive capabilities in 2 weeks.
> 
> The talk coming out of the Russian think tanks is a little bit scary.  They are urging Putin to issue a recognition that by sanctioning Russia and by supplying the Ukraine, a state of war effectively exists with NATO (echoing words Tucker Carlson has already used) and to unleash secondary actions (such as sanction some of which were already announced today, appropriations, cyber attacks and fly overs) against the western nations and to interdict supplies inside Poland.  Their thinking is the west (particularly France, Italy and Germany) are bluffing and don't have the stomach to stare down Russia in a chicken race to war....that they'll force the US to the negotiating table to remove the sanctions and give Putin what he wants in the Ukraine.  Given Putin is almost out of options if the Chinese don't rescue him, the chances of the Russian think tank scenario is substantially rising.


I think that advise would be wrong. Putin's actions have strengthened Nato like nothing before in decades. The Russian military performance in Ukraine has exposed them in an extremely unflattering light. If they actually hit targets in Poland, the Poles will 100% retaliate and Nato is compelled to go all in. I could see Nato immediately imposing a no fly zone and giving Russia 24 hours to get out of dodge, if even that. If anything, the western hawks must be licking their lips at the prospect of a pop at Russia ... nukes aside obviously, which is a very large "aside" admittedly. That scenario has Ukraine in Nato, alongside Finland & Sweden in all likelihood, with the potential that Ukraine rolls into Crimea (with Nato screaming stop probably).


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 15, 2022)

blam said:


> Oh no...I do not. But that is one issue we have in the world today. There is too much fake news. How do you know the people who is telling you that Putin is a murderer is telling the truth and not taking things out of context? I have been dissapointed countless times by the main stream media in the past.
> 
> One of the earliest news I debunked and one of my biggest dissappoinment was known as the Tiananmen Masaccre in China. I was led to believe that thousands of people were crushed by tanks on Tiananmen Square by the anti Communists. I mean, *its baked in the name of the event*, Tiananmen Square *Massacre*. Turns out not a single person died there on June 4 1989 on the square. I knew this after I watched a Western made documentary called Gates of Heavenly Peace which is made by PBS, I think. I repeat, Western made documentary, not CPC propaganda.
> 
> ...


Used missed the ship.








						Heaven's Gate (religious group) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 15, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I think that advise would be wrong. Putin's actions have strengthened Nato like nothing before in decades. The Russian military performance in Ukraine has exposed them in an extremely unflattering light. If they actually hit targets in Poland, the Poles will 100% retaliate and Nato is compelled to go all in. I could see Nato immediately imposing a no fly zone and giving Russia 24 hours to get out of dodge, if even that. If anything, the western hawks must be licking their lips at the prospect of a pop at Russia ... nukes aside obviously, which is a very large "aside" admittedly. That scenario has Ukraine in Nato, alongside Finland & Sweden in all likelihood, with the potential that Ukraine rolls into Crimea (with Nato screaming stop probably).


Yeah but these are the same brilliant thinkers that said the west would never sanction him, germany would never cut its nose off, and the Ukrainians would welcome them with open arms with flags and flowers.  Our experts aren't the only ones subject to bubble think.


----------



## blam (Mar 16, 2022)

dad4 said:


> You unfurl a banner in Beijing that says “6/4/1989”. I unfurl a banner in Washington that says “6/4/1951”.
> 
> We wait to see which one of us gets arrested.


I would bet you neither would be arrested. You remind me of paranoid grandmas.


----------



## blam (Mar 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Used missed the ship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the space ship the Falun gong leader missed. He actually believe in aliens.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 16, 2022)

He's seriously gone full b shit crazy.......


----------



## espola (Mar 16, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> He's seriously gone full b shit crazy.......


He's talking like Desantis.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 16, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> He's seriously gone full b shit crazy.......


The best guess I've heard is steroid abuse.

Builds muscle, causes paranoia, and weakens the immune system.

Makes sense for a muscle bound 69 year old threatening WWII from one end of a 12 meter long table.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 16, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> He's seriously gone full b shit crazy.......



He may be " Crazy ", but he isn't stupid.

Joe Biden and his corrupt administration have no idea what they are
getting America and its citizens into.

Everything this guy stated on March 14th is TRUE.

A False Flag Is Coming - YouTube 

Biden needs to be removed from office immediately as he is deliberately provoking
a lunatic thug ( Putin ) that will not hesitate in escalating this manufactured fiasco to 
Defcon 1. 

Criminally corrupt Vladimir Putin and Criminally corrupt Joeseph Biden are playing
a bluffing game that Biden initiated. 
Putin is an insane criminal thug that has Biden's number.
Biden is a drug addled, dementia ridden lying scum bag who has no spine. 

This is not a recipe I or the rest of the " Aware " PLANET want played out.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 16, 2022)

espola said:


> He's talking like Desantis.


You are taunting like Biden.


----------



## N00B (Mar 16, 2022)

dad4 said:


> The best guess I've heard is steroid abuse.
> 
> Builds muscle, causes paranoia, and weakens the immune system.
> 
> Makes sense for a muscle bound 69 year old threatening WWII from one end of a 12 meter long table.


That’s funny given the Russian Olympic Program’s history of performance enhancing drugs.


----------



## espola (Mar 16, 2022)

N00B said:


> That’s funny given the Russian Olympic Program’s history of performance enhancing drugs.


I'm sure Vlad will be able to provide clean samples if asked.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 16, 2022)

espola said:


> I'm sure Vlad will be able to provide clean samples if asked.


Maybe like Adolph was he’s on meth.


----------



## N00B (Mar 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe like Adolph was he’s on meth.


I assume the would also be banned as a stimulant.


----------



## espola (Mar 16, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Maybe like Adolph was he’s on meth.


Both sides used amphetamines to keep flight crews awake and soldiers alert.  If they flipped out and killed somebody as a result, that was seen as a good thing (usually).


----------



## blam (Mar 17, 2022)

I guess I still have have not gotten the memo on how to program my brain to take on the new position which I am suppose to take.

Based on my old source RT which has now been censored from youtube, I should support Russia because
1. The US backed coup in 2014 overthrew a legally elected government of Ukraine which resulted in the Eastern regions rebelling and Ukraine in a civil war for the past 8 years.
2. Russia enterring the conflict thus putting an end to that civil war. 15000 lives that have been lost in that civil war
3. Expansion of NATO into Ukraine which contradicts verbal promises given by the US since the end of the cold war. This war ends that.
4. Ukraine government led by a small minority of ultra right wingers but holding leadership positions and critical in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 must be dealt with.
5. Chemical and biological weapons found inside Ukraine are funded by the USA. New development here which may lead to more expose and investigation to the extend of US involvement in biological and chemical warfare.


Now, based on my new source CNN, I should support Ukraine because
1. Russia is a big country with Putin who is a dangerous man. Invading a small country is a no no.
2. Everything Putin does is up to no good.
3. 

As you can see, I still have not gotten all the memo in how I am supposed to be brainwashed to be pro Ukraine.


----------



## dad4 (Mar 17, 2022)

blam said:


> I guess I still have have not gotten the memo on how to program my brain to take on the new position which I am suppose to take.
> 
> Based on my old source RT which has now been censored from youtube, I should support Russia because
> 1. The US backed coup in 2014 overthrew a legally elected government of Ukraine which resulted in the Eastern regions rebelling and Ukraine in a civil war for the past 8 years.
> ...


Give yourself more credit.  I think you’ve been brainwashed quite effectively.

Credit for that goes to Pooh Bear.


----------



## WestOfFive (Mar 18, 2022)

N00B said:


> That’s funny given the Russian Olympic Program’s history of performance enhancing drugs.


that video didn't age well.....


----------



## whatithink (Mar 18, 2022)

blam said:


> I guess I still have have not gotten the memo on how to program my brain to take on the new position which I am suppose to take.
> 
> Based on my old source RT which has now been censored from youtube, I should support Russia because
> 1. The US backed coup in 2014 overthrew a legally elected government of Ukraine which resulted in the Eastern regions rebelling and Ukraine in a civil war for the past 8 years.
> ...



In 2014 the Ukrainian president was voted out of office, unanimously, by the Ukrainian parliament, because he reneged on plans to sign treaties with the EU but instead he (not Ukraine) wanted closer ties with Russia. Is that your coup?
In 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean peninsula, an area recognized internationally as being sovereign Ukrainian territory. It has harbored and supported separatists in two other Ukrainian provinces since. That conflict, started and sustained by Russia, has cost some 15000 lives.
Sovereign countries get to choose their own destiny. That's how it works.
Now you are getting silly, Russia is ruled by an autocratic dictator, you do know that, right?
Beyond silly ... you were doing so well.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 18, 2022)

Ahh what the heck... I'll bite. My thoughts in red...




blam said:


> I guess I still have have not gotten the memo on how to program my brain to take on the new position which I am suppose to take.
> 
> Based on my old source RT which has now been censored from youtube, I should support Russia because
> 1. The US backed coup in 2014 overthrew a legally elected government of Ukraine which resulted in the Eastern regions rebelling and Ukraine in a civil war for the past 8 years.  I'm trying to remember, was this "legally elected" government the one Putin was backing after Russian spies poisoned President Yushchenko or was it before. Remember that? How his face was all disfigured. Anyway can't be bothered to look but as I recall I don't think a single nation outside the Russian sphere of influence recognized that election as 'legal'... including the citizens of Ukraine given how strongly they are currently fighting for self autonomy at the present moment.
> ...


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Blam is the Tucker Carlson of Socalsoccer forum.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2022)

The projections are getting really bad...epic level bad...2008 level event bad at least....this author calls it the Great Inflation which will likely be followed by a recession. Quadruple storm of COVID shortages, government policies, the war in Ukraine, and now China supply disruptions due to their shaky economy and COVID zero lockdowns.  Fed is being timid in tackling it, though rates are rising, for fear of triggering a full blown depression...but it's not going to be enough to offset the fundamentals building on the other side.  



			Inflation Is Bad and About to Get Worse


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The projections are getting really bad...epic level bad...2008 level event bad at least....this author calls it the Great Inflation which will likely be followed by a recession. Quadruple storm of COVID shortages, government policies, the war in Ukraine, and now China supply disruptions due to their shaky economy and COVID zero lockdowns.  Fed is being timid in tackling it, though rates are rising, for fear of triggering a full blown depression...but it's not going to be enough to offset the fundamentals building on the other side.
> 
> 
> 
> Inflation Is Bad and About to Get Worse


All this from the war in Ukraine?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2022)

espola said:


> All this from the war in Ukraine?


I see reading comprehension still eludes you, even in this thread.  Maybe when you are in your neighborhood it goes better?


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I see reading comprehension still eludes you, even in this thread.  Maybe when you are in your neighborhood it goes better?


I comprehend the thread tile completely -- "War in Ukraine soon?"

How about you?


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2022)

espola said:


> I comprehend the thread tile completely -- "War in Ukraine soon?"
> 
> How about you?


Apparently not as it's one of the causes listed.  You prefer I put it in the COVID vaccine forum?  Maybe both?  Or maybe I should just put it in the President Biden one....blame the government policies?  Nah...should have put it in your neighborhood, huh?

You apparently can't even read titles properly since this thread is more properly entitled "War in the Ukraine now...how much longer can it go on?"

You're slipping.  Sad to watch especially considering how much better EOTL is at doing it.  Does it make you feel envious to see a master at work at it?


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Apparently not as it's one of the causes listed.  You prefer I put it in the COVID vaccine forum?  Maybe both?  Or maybe I should just put it in the President Biden one....blame the government policies?  Nah...should have put it in your neighborhood, huh?
> 
> You apparently can't even read titles properly since this thread is more properly entitled "War in the Ukraine now...how much longer can it go on?"
> 
> You're slipping.  Sad to watch especially considering how much better EOTL is at doing it.  Does it make you feel envious to see a master at work at it?


Your response could have been "It's one of the three factors listed in the article".  Instead, you chose a dishonest ad hominem attack.  Allow me to add an ad hominem response from me to you "....as you frequently do".  The difference between yours directed at me and mine directed at you is that mine is factual.


----------



## blam (Mar 18, 2022)

whatithink said:


> In 2014 the Ukrainian president was voted out of office, unanimously, by the Ukrainian parliament, because he reneged on plans to sign treaties with the EU but instead he (not Ukraine) wanted closer ties with Russia. Is that your coup?
> In 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean peninsula, an area recognized internationally as being sovereign Ukrainian territory. It has harbored and supported separatists in two other Ukrainian provinces since. That conflict, started and sustained by Russia, has cost some 15000 lives.
> Sovereign countries get to choose their own destiny. That's how it works.
> Now you are getting silly, Russia is ruled by an autocratic dictator, you do know that, right?
> Beyond silly ... you were doing so well.


Wow. So much to digest here. You do realize I am now ready to be brainwashed by CNN and you are rebutting the RT propaganda right? Anyway, let just focus on point 1.

Yes, that is the coup. Was he removed illegally? Not being an expert at this issue and just using my logic and bullshit detector, yes, he was removed illegaly. According to wikpedia


*Removal of Yanukovych[edit]*
_On *21 February*, President Yanukovych and parliament declared 22 and 23 February to be days of mourning "due to the loss of human life as a result of mass disturbances".[207]

In the afternoon, the Rada voted 328-0[210] to remove Yanukovich from his post and to schedule a presidential election for 25 May.[73][211] This vote *did not follow the impeachment process specified by the Ukrainian Constitution,* which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote—at least 338 votes in favor—in parliament. Instead, parliament declared that Yanukovych *"withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency*" as the reason for early elections.[212][unreliable source] Lawmakers then elected opposition leader Oleksandr Turchynov to be the chairman of Parliament, acting president and prime minister of Ukraine; *this decision also violated the Constitution, according to which the impeached President was to be succeeded by the Prime Minister* Serhiy Arbuzov.[74][213]__[214]_


If he was president on Feb 21 and declared the day of mourning, how could Parliement the very next day cite that he withdrew his duties in unconstitutional manner? He was not MIA.

And the next in line should be the Prime Minister. It was an illegal coup de tat.

Ah, now I see, no wonder the Eastern regions started a civil war after this coup dtat. They were not happy the power transferred illegally and thus began the 8 year civil war. You are not helping!!


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2022)

espola said:


> Your response could have been "It's one of the three factors listed in the article".  Instead, you chose a dishonest ad hominem attack.  Allow me to add an ad hominem response from me to you "....as you frequently do".  The difference between yours directed at me and mine directed at you is that mine is factual.


So, to summarize.  In the end you really did have a reading comprehension error (nice that you admit it).  You've walked away from what your prior definition was re "ad hominem attacks", which is rich coming from a troll like you, whose main contribution to these forums is belittling others, and you call is "dishonest" even though it's very honest, and then you have the gall to imply that you neither do it very often and that your shit doesn't stink because you are somehow exempt.

Got it!   Maybe EOTL will give you some lessons.


----------



## espola (Mar 18, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> So, to summarize.  In the end you really did have a reading comprehension error (nice that you admit it).  You've walked away from what your prior definition was re "ad hominem attacks", which is rich coming from a troll like you, whose main contribution to these forums is belittling others, and you call is "dishonest" even though it's very honest, and then you have the gall to imply that you neither do it very often and that your shit doesn't stink because you are somehow exempt.
> 
> Got it!   Maybe EOTL will give you some lessons.


More lies and ad hominems.

q.e.d.


----------



## Grace T. (Mar 18, 2022)

espola said:


> More lies and ad hominems.
> 
> q.e.d.


More idiocy and comprehension issues

q.e.d.


----------



## blam (Mar 18, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Ahh what the heck... I'll bite. My thoughts in red...
> 
> 1. The US backed coup in 2014 overthrew a legally elected government of Ukraine which resulted in the Eastern regions rebelling and Ukraine in a civil war for the past 8 years. I'm trying to remember, was this "legally elected" government the one Putin was backing after Russian spies poisoned President Yushchenko or was it before. Remember that? How his face was all disfigured. Anyway can't be bothered to look but as I recall I don't think a single nation outside the Russian sphere of influence recognized that election as 'legal'... including the citizens of Ukraine given how strongly they are currently fighting for self autonomy at the present moment.
> 
> 2. Russia enterring the conflict thus putting an end to that civil war. 15000 lives that have been lost in that civil war Again not an expert on the history of Ukraine, but the brute fact that Ukraines are fighting and dying to be outside the Russian sphere of influence speaks pretty darn loudly to me about what the Ukrainian people themselves think about the Russians saving them in 2014 regardless of what you heard on RT. I mean really, why do the Russians always got to build walls to keep their people in?


On response to point 1,
Yes, but I do not know who did the poisoning. I would suppose Putin would be a major suspect since he is the devil. However, knowing politics, enemies can come from all angles and some can be done to implicate Putin. I would think it is more likely his own enemies from within Ukraine, perhaps with Putin support. And this is speculating with the least amount of available evidence. 

It is however, very strange that Yushchenko would before he leave office give an award to a major Nazi collaborator,* Stephan Bandera*. WHY??? 
_On 22 January 2010, on the Day of Unity of Ukraine, the then-President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded to Bandera the title of Hero of Ukraine (posthumously) for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent Ukrainian state."[120] A grandson of Bandera, also named Stepan, accepted the award that day from the Ukrainian President during the state ceremony to commemorate the Day of Unity of Ukraine at the National Opera House of Ukraine.[120][121][122]__[123]_

On response to point 2, 
Ukraine is very divided based on my reading. The eastern region that fought a civil war against the Ukraininan government, the region called donbask or something like that welcomes the Russian with open arms. So did Crimea.... now, in the Western Ukraine region, I believe people are fighting tooth and nail against the Russians.

These are the people of Crimea welcoming the Russians 3 months after the annexation singing the national anthem of Russia and waving Russian flags. Point is its quite a divided country, from my impression.


----------



## blam (Mar 18, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Give yourself more credit.  I think you’ve been brainwashed quite effectively.
> 
> Credit for that goes to Pooh Bear.


Given how Russian channels are now banned from youtube, and RT off the air and banned from all TV channels, I am pretty sure I will brainwashed the other way now and see events through the lenses of the CNN way!

I would suggest also banning Norm Chomsky but like we know how things work, dissenting opinions are tolerated in the USA so long as their audience is small and there is no material impact providing an ilusion of freedom. Unlike some paranoid countries that would not even tolerate any dissenting opinions even when they have no material impact.


----------



## tenacious (Mar 18, 2022)

blam said:


> On response to point 1,
> Yes, but I do not know who did the poisoning. I would suppose Putin would be a major suspect since he is the devil. However, knowing politics, enemies can come from all angles and some can be done to implicate Putin. I would think it is more likely his own enemies from within Ukraine, perhaps with Putin support. And this is speculating with the least amount of available evidence.
> 
> It is however, very strange that Yushchenko would before he leave office give an award to a major Nazi collaborator,* Stephan Bandera*. WHY???
> ...


I believe in free speech and seeing the big picture. But yikes. That RT is still using the same talking points, that might have been used had their military actually conquered Ukraine in a couple days like Putin planned, is a bit of a head scratcher. 

As to the rest... again I'll simply make the point that there isn't a government in the world that agrees with the arguments you're making. Things are going so poorly that even China is backing away. If Putin isn't careful, Ukraine will gain control of Crimea by the time this is done.


----------



## whatithink (Mar 19, 2022)

blam said:


> Wow. So much to digest here. You do realize I am now ready to be brainwashed by CNN and you are rebutting the RT propaganda right? Anyway, let just focus on point 1.
> 
> Yes, that is the coup. Was he removed illegally? Not being an expert at this issue and just using my logic and bullshit detector, yes, he was removed illegaly. According to wikpedia
> 
> ...


Is that really what you got from reading the whole wiki page, or did you just skip to a piece you liked? When you have resorted to shooting your citizens you're probably done, and certainly don't have any moral high ground to stand on, never mind pontificate from. 

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia


----------



## espola (Mar 20, 2022)

One of the side effects of the Russian invasionof Ukraine is that a lot of Russian high-tech equipment is being captured, which is a potential goldmine for US technology spies.  Shown below is an example, a Russian Pantsir S1/SA-22 Greyhound air defense system.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Mar 21, 2022)

espola said:


> One of the side effects of the Russian invasionof Ukraine is that a lot of Russian high-tech equipment is being captured, which is a potential goldmine for US technology spies.  Shown below is an example, a Russian Pantsir S1/SA-22 Greyhound air defense system.
> 
> View attachment 13114


Goldmine for Ukrainian troops. Our tech is better but knowing thine enemy is important.


----------



## thirteenknots (Mar 21, 2022)




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## blam (Mar 21, 2022)

I was right about the Iraq war from the beginning. 

When President Bush claimed that the Iraqies were not allow UN inspectors to inspect potential sites in Iraq, he was bluffing. The mainstream media went with it.

Saddam was entirely cooperative with the UN all through the 90s. He only resisited when the inspections had no sight in end in the early 2000s.

How did I do it? By getting sources from both sides. I do not work for the governemtn. I am just an arm chair person who is trying to make sure that the media is not duping me with fake news. 

Of course, do not take it from me. Take it from Laura Logan. You side with Ukraine, you side with the same group that contains Fascists and right wingers.


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## blam (Mar 21, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I believe in free speech and seeing the big picture. But yikes. That RT is still using the same talking points, that might have been used had their military actually conquered Ukraine in a couple days like Putin planned, is a bit of a head scratcher.
> 
> As to the rest... again I'll simply make the point that there isn't a government in the world that agrees with the arguments you're making. Things are going so poorly that even China is backing away. If Putin isn't careful, Ukraine will gain control of Crimea by the time this is done.



You think the Russians are like American arm forces where you shock and awe, destroy and flatten entire cities and then move in? *You do know these are people who have families on both sides right?* Many of these cities still have water, electricity and internet. The Russians are not destroying all infrastructure and then moving in like how the Americans would completely wipe out cities during the first few days.

If Putin does indeed get what he wants, you have to take your hats off to him for minimizing colateral damage.


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## blam (Mar 21, 2022)

RT is banned, but the youtube algorithm continues to recommend me stuff..it is powerful. This time it tried to recommend me the BBC, another propaganda channel from UK. However, it is BBC from 2015. Apparently, the memo that you are not suppose to be making pieces like these did not arrive yet in 2015. It would be unthinkable for BBC to make this documentary below today.


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## blam (Mar 21, 2022)

Lara Logan claimed Zallensky was a puppet in my first post today. youtube algo just recommended this. Take a look. Have to go...


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## dad4 (Mar 21, 2022)

Putting you on ignore, Blam.  

I don’t really need Chinese talking points right now.  Give my regards to Emperor PoohBear.


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## blam (Mar 22, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Putting you on ignore, Blam.
> 
> I don’t really need Chinese talking points right now.  Give my regards to Emperor PoohBear.


Woah!!! Something I said? The last posts were videos from Western propaganda sources, not Chinese.

Interview with Lara Logan - United States
Far right group in Ukraine - BBC from United Kingdom
Zelensky Oligarch connection - Radio Free Europe, funded by United States.

If you look at my original post which is the first post on this thread, I try to get my news from BOTH sides, opening the possibility that BOTH sides are attempting to dupe me. You should tell your bosses at Epoch Times, coming up with a newspaper that only spews Anti China propaganda is going to quickly exposed it as having a agenda. Its more effective to look impartial, then the agenda can be hidden. Then it would look more like CNN, Fox or NYT.


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## Grace T. (Mar 22, 2022)

Rumors are flying that the Russians are burning their papers at the embassy in Warsaw and have informed nonessential embassy personnel to leave the country immediately.  Speculation is that Putin is getting ready to issue an ultimatum to Poland to cease acting as a conduit for military support to Ukraine or face attack.


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## whatithink (Mar 24, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Rumors are flying that the Russians are burning their papers at the embassy in Warsaw and have informed nonessential embassy personnel to leave the country immediately.  Speculation is that Putin is getting ready to issue an ultimatum to Poland to cease acting as a conduit for military support to Ukraine or face attack.


I hadn't heard those rumors, but I think the Poles have put a giant stake in the ground with Putin by expelling 45 diplomats and blocking the embassy bank accounts. They have delivered a huge FU in the clear knowledge that they are a member of Nato and any direct action by him will bring a direct response from Nato. I doubt they are making these decisions in isolation. I would also doubt there is much appetite in Russia for a military confrontation with Nato given they are having their asses handed to them in the Ukraine (relatively speaking).

As I've said before, as calculations go, by Putin, he has f-d up beyond all recognition. He has done more to unify and reenergize Nato than anything or anyone in decades and he has the EU moving towards a unified defense strategy, the freaking EU!!!


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## tenacious (Mar 25, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I hadn't heard those rumors, but I think the Poles have put a giant stake in the ground with Putin by expelling 45 diplomats and blocking the embassy bank accounts. They have delivered a huge FU in the clear knowledge that they are a member of Nato and any direct action by him will bring a direct response from Nato. I doubt they are making these decisions in isolation. I would also doubt there is much appetite in Russia for a military confrontation with Nato given they are having their asses handed to them in the Ukraine (relatively speaking).
> 
> As I've said before, as calculations go, by Putin, he has f-d up beyond all recognition. He has done more to unify and reenergize Nato than anything or anyone in decades and he has the EU moving towards a unified defense strategy, the freaking EU!!!


Reading tea leaves here, but seems to me that events on the ground have plainly gotten away from Putin, and both in dollars and lives I'd say Russia isn't moving in the troops to control the territory he's claiming. So this has moved to the endgame of what Russia gets to go away.

As someone who thinks we need to stick it to Putin, I think Biden's slow cautious approach is actually pretty smart. As long as Putin remains the only 'bad' actor, the European public will be more accepting of the higher gas prices that are required to break their addiction to the russian fuel. Same here in America, sticking it to Putin is going to require the public not to totally freak out at higher energy prices. Which to me, with gas at $6 a gallon, is still better than letting our egos talk us into another war.


----------



## espola (Mar 25, 2022)

espola said:


> One of the side effects of the Russian invasionof Ukraine is that a lot of Russian high-tech equipment is being captured, which is a potential goldmine for US technology spies.  Shown below is an example, a Russian Pantsir S1/SA-22 Greyhound air defense system.
> 
> View attachment 13114


...and...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506306740421341193


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## whatithink (Mar 25, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Reading tea leaves here, but seems to me that events on the ground have plainly gotten away from Putin, and both in dollars and lives I'd say Russia isn't moving in the troops to control the territory he's claiming. So this has moved to the endgame of what Russia gets to go away.
> 
> As someone who thinks we need to stick it to Putin, I think Biden's slow cautious approach is actually pretty smart. As long as Putin remains the only 'bad' actor, the European public will be more accepting of the higher gas prices that are required to break their addiction to the russian fuel. Same here in America, sticking it to Putin is going to require the public not to totally freak out at higher energy prices. Which to me, with gas at $6 a gallon, is still better than letting our egos talk us into another war.


I agree, paying more for gas or having to deal with inflation is a lot cheaper than the enormous blood and treasure to be paid in a potential conflict with Russia. I also think Biden has performed pretty well, balancing support for Ukraine and galvanizing the international community in that support, with a few notable exceptions, vs a more militant approach and/or an approach that stresses a united Western front.


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## blam (Mar 25, 2022)

Oliver Stone made a movie called Ukraine on Fire. It was never censored when it first came out and was not censorred for many years until a few weeks ago. Now it is censorred on youtube.

What do you all think of censorship?


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## Grace T. (Mar 25, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I agree, paying more for gas or having to deal with inflation is a lot cheaper than the enormous blood and treasure to be paid in a potential conflict with Russia. I also think Biden has performed pretty well, balancing support for Ukraine and galvanizing the international community in that support, with a few notable exceptions, vs a more militant approach and/or an approach that stresses a united Western front.


I largely agree with your assessment but my one critique is that Biden hasn't really been leading this....all this is being pushed by the Europeans (strangely united for a change from the anti-EU brits, the formerly pro-Russian Germans, Macron, and the EU-critique Poles).   Biden has been largely pulled along in all this, and has been the one to actually pull the breaks on some of the more extreme stuff (like airplanes to Ukraine from Poland).  He's leading from behind.  That, however, may be the best thing that is called for in these circumstances so I agree with your assessment "performed pretty well".  Macron shaped the policy far more than Biden and the US


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## espola (Mar 25, 2022)

blam said:


> Oliver Stone made a movie called Ukraine on Fire. It was never censored when it first came out and was not censorred for many years until a few weeks ago. Now it is censorred on youtube.
> 
> What do you all think of censorship?


----------



## whatithink (Mar 25, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I largely agree with your assessment but my one critique is that Biden hasn't really been leading this....all this is being pushed by the Europeans (strangely united for a change from the anti-EU brits, the formerly pro-Russian Germans, Macron, and the EU-critique Poles).   Biden has been largely pulled along in all this, and has been the one to actually pull the breaks on some of the more extreme stuff (like airplanes to Ukraine from Poland).  He's leading from behind.  That, however, may be the best thing that is called for in these circumstances so I agree with your assessment "performed pretty well".  Macron shaped the policy far more than Biden and the US


Yes, and I think that's a very good thing actually. US administrations have been calling the Europeans to take more of a lead, and for example meet the 2% Nato spending on defense and have been resisted. Supporting and "following" is sensible in this instance and not dwelling on any "told you so's", but focusing on the now and future. I would add that I think Germany changed the tenure of the whole conversation by both shipping arms to the Ukraine and committing an immediate increase in defense spending to $100B and stating that they will meet the 2%.  

I do have a concern that Pandora's box may have been opened with a potential European arms race now in play. Europe has a very robust arms industry and has the financial wherewithall to ramp up very quickly. I have no doubt, for example, that Germany could go full nuclear very quickly if they so desired, and repeated threats from Russia of its nuclear capabilities could push them in that direction.


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## tenacious (Mar 26, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I largely agree with your assessment but my one critique is that Biden hasn't really been leading this....all this is being pushed by the Europeans (strangely united for a change from the anti-EU brits, the formerly pro-Russian Germans, Macron, and the EU-critique Poles).   Biden has been largely pulled along in all this, and has been the one to actually pull the breaks on some of the more extreme stuff (like airplanes to Ukraine from Poland).  He's leading from behind.  That, however, may be the best thing that is called for in these circumstances so I agree with your assessment "performed pretty well".  Macron shaped the policy far more than Biden and the US


Haha I'll admit the worlds 'Biden in charge' causes my eye to twitch. However if there was ever an international crisis Biden had the skillset to manage; holding the big stick while managing the egos and nuance of European politics to fend off Cold War like Russian aggression in Europe- is probably it. 

Joe from Scranton is a low ego guy, not some squawky yankee who the stinky cheese crowd is going to instinctually hate. And it's allowing him to rally the Europeans to the NATO alliance, and giving us strategic options to advance American interests in a way that Trump (or even maybe a De Santis) could not hope to emulate.


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## tenacious (Mar 26, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Yes, and I think that's a very good thing actually. US administrations have been calling the Europeans to take more of a lead, and for example meet the 2% Nato spending on defense and have been resisted. Supporting and "following" is sensible in this instance and not dwelling on any "told you so's", but focusing on the now and future. I would add that I think Germany changed the tenure of the whole conversation by both shipping arms to the Ukraine and committing an immediate increase in defense spending to $100B and stating that they will meet the 2%.
> 
> I do have a concern that Pandora's box may have been opened with a potential European arms race now in play. Europe has a very robust arms industry and has the financial wherewithall to ramp up very quickly. I have no doubt, for example, that Germany could go full nuclear very quickly if they so desired, and repeated threats from Russia of its nuclear capabilities could push them in that direction.


I agree about the europeans. You talk to Germans these days and they prance around like leprechauns, always taking the moral high ground and you forget they only switched away from 'might makes right' after WW2 when their position in the world had changed. But given the historical precedent of so many European attempts for world domination... I personally sleep better knowing the Germans don't have nukes.


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## blam (Mar 26, 2022)

espola said:


>


I do not understand your response.


----------



## blam (Mar 26, 2022)

This BBC video below shows

1. Ukraines far right attemtping to overthrow the Ukrainian government for agreeing to the Minsk accord that would have been the framework for peace to East Ukraine.
2. This tells me that Ukraine has a weak government and there is a lack of political will to solve the issue in East Ukraine and proven by 8 years of stalemate.
3. If Ukraine joins NATO, and with the far right being so powerful (in the video, they can be seen battling the Ukrainian army for a smuggling route), it opens up a potential of NATO vs Russia conflict.
3. Putin comes in to help the Russians in East Ukraine.

So why should we not be supporing Putin efforts? What is the other side of the argument? Just a land grab by Putin? That simple? No country has successfully land grab another nation without local support in the past few decades, I am sure Putin knows this.


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## espola (Mar 26, 2022)

blam said:


> I do not understand your response.


It's not censored.  Anyone can view it on youtube.


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## Brav520 (Mar 26, 2022)

WH has had to walk back 2 statements in the last 2 days from our commander In Chief regarding Ukraine


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## tenacious (Mar 27, 2022)

Brav520 said:


> WH has had to walk back 2 statements in the last 2 days from our commander In Chief regarding Ukraine


Yes these are gaffs that make Biden looks silly I do agree with you on that. But then again Biden has a long history of speaking gaffs in public and then walking them back. I know it, you know it, the europeans know it. What Putin thinks of it I don't know, but the point I'm making is this is a well known character tic... 

So I don't know these past two odd statements really matters or changes much if anything.


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## tenacious (Mar 27, 2022)

blam said:


> This BBC video below shows
> 
> 1. Ukraines far right attemtping to overthrow the Ukrainian government for agreeing to the Minsk accord that would have been the framework for peace to East Ukraine.
> 2. This tells me that Ukraine has a weak government and there is a lack of political will to solve the issue in East Ukraine and proven by 8 years of stalemate.
> ...


Yeah yeah yeah... remember the Minsk accord, where someone else decided for the Ukrainians who gets to run their government. As an American, my opinion is let freedom ring:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."


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## Brav520 (Mar 27, 2022)

tenacious said:


> Yes these are gaffs that make Biden looks silly I do agree with you on that. But then again Biden has a long history of speaking gaffs in public and then walking them back. I know it, you know it, the europeans know it. What Putin thinks of it I don't know, but the point I'm making is this is a well known character tic...
> 
> So I don't know these past two odd statements really matters or changes much if anything.


I don’t know if anyone does either , but calling for regime change of a nuclear power isn’t great .

clearly, Biden said the quiet part out loud, and even his cheerleaders in the press know it was a big mistake


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## tenacious (Mar 28, 2022)

With friends like these...









						Putin’s useful German idiots
					

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a repudiation of a whole generation of German politicians from across the spectrum.




					www.politico.eu


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## blam (Mar 28, 2022)

espola said:


> It's not censored.  Anyone can view it on youtube.


They say when God closes a door, he opens another. I do not remember if I heard this in church or was it sound of music. But with Russia Today now banned on youtube, other channels are filling the space. This guy who is a Dartmouth graduate is pretty interesting. I listend to an entire 2 hour of his podcast yesterday and I hardly ever listned to something that long. He has been living in Ukraine for a while and offers some interesting dissection or inside story of the events.


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## watfly (Mar 28, 2022)

whatithink said:


> Yes, and I think that's a very good thing actually. US administrations have been calling the Europeans to take more of a lead, and for example meet the 2% Nato spending on defense and have been resisted. Supporting and "following" is sensible in this instance and not dwelling on any "told you so's", but focusing on the now and future. I would add that I think Germany changed the tenure of the whole conversation by both shipping arms to the Ukraine and committing an immediate increase in defense spending to $100B and stating that they will meet the 2%.


I'm skeptical that Ukraine would have gotten much support, either from the Euro's or the US, if it hadn't been for their resolve and the giant pair on Zelensky (who is also a master marketer).  Everyone likes a front runner.  Ukraine deserves all the credit for leadership on this conflict and emboldening NATO countries.



tenacious said:


> Haha I'll admit the worlds 'Biden in charge' causes my eye to twitch. However if there was ever an international crisis Biden had the skillset to manage; holding the big stick while managing the egos and nuance of European politics to fend off Cold War like Russian aggression in Europe- is probably it.


You're probably in the minority





tenacious said:


> Yes these are gaffs that make Biden looks silly I do agree with you on that. But then again Biden has a long history of speaking gaffs in public and then walking them back. I know it, you know it, the europeans know it. What Putin thinks of it I don't know, but the point I'm making is this is a well known character tic...
> 
> So I don't know these past two odd statements really matters or changes much if anything.


I think Putin probably understands that they are gaffes as well, but it makes great bulletin board for Putin to sell to the Russians.  Biden may be Putin's best propagandist.


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## whatithink (Mar 28, 2022)

watfly said:


> I'm skeptical that Ukraine would have gotten much support, either from the Euro's or the US, if it hadn't been for their resolve and the giant pair on Zelensky (who is also a master marketer).  Everyone likes a front runner.  Ukraine deserves all the credit for leadership on this conflict and emboldening NATO countries.


I think there is a difference between "support" versus the reaction in Europe. I don't think we realize what the specter of the Soviets presents to Eastern Europe in particular, including Germany obviously. The fact that Russia would invade in today's world, after the Europeans have contorted themselves for the last couple of decades trying to placate Putin, seems to have had a seismic impact on their psyche. Ukraine have played the media angle astonishingly well, which has just given cover to European governments (if that was needed).


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## Multi Sport (Mar 28, 2022)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


Yep.. you are when you post stuff like "sports previously known as women's sports" what exactly are those sports again?


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## tenacious (Mar 28, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're probably in the minority
> 
> View attachment 13143
> 
> ...



In regard to your first comment, I've attached a link down below to a Newsweek article that I would say does a pretty good job of arguing what I'd say is my position on Biden's leadership with regard to Ukraine.   

As to the propaganda angle? Somehow I doubt hearing a US President say that Putin shouldn't be allowed to stay in office, will cause the Russian people to hate us more than they did when we sanctioned and shut down their economy.  









						This Is Joe Biden's Finest Moment
					

He is preserving NATO, regaining American's position as the leader of the west and showing the steely determination needed in this type of crisis.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## watfly (Mar 28, 2022)

tenacious said:


> In regard to your first comment, I've attached a link down below to a Newsweek article that I would say does a pretty good job of arguing what I'd say is my position on Biden's leadership with regard to Ukraine.
> 
> As to the propaganda angle? Somehow I doubt hearing a US President say that Putin shouldn't be allowed to stay in office, will cause the Russian people to hate us more than they did when we sanctioned and shut down their economy.
> 
> ...


I support his comment about removing Biden from power, I agree with him.  However, his administration clearly didn't appreciate him going off script.  The Newsweek opinion is comical but might be accurate in terms of his finest moment which is the worlds lowest bar.  Biden hasn't totally botched the Ukraine/Russian matter like Afghanistan, but he continues to lead from behind and the Ukrainians success is propping up his "day late and dollar short" policies.

Wasn't thinking about his comments adding to Russian hate of the West, but adding more fuel to Putin's justifications for invading Ukraine.


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## tenacious (Mar 31, 2022)

Where did Blam go?


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## tenacious (Mar 31, 2022)

watfly said:


> I support his comment about removing Biden from power, I agree with him.  However, his administration clearly didn't appreciate him going off script.  The Newsweek opinion is comical but might be accurate in terms of his finest moment which is the worlds lowest bar.  Biden hasn't totally botched the Ukraine/Russian matter like Afghanistan, but he continues to lead from behind and the Ukrainians success is propping up his "day late and dollar short" policies.
> 
> Wasn't thinking about his comments adding to Russian hate of the West, but adding more fuel to Putin's justifications for invading Ukraine.


I don't disagree that Biden has not lived up to what I had hoped. But at the same time, I'm too afraid of what happens if things go wrong to root against him. Haha as such I'll take the wins where I can get them.


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## watfly (Apr 1, 2022)

tenacious said:


> I don't disagree that Biden has not lived up to what I had hoped. But at the same time, I'm too afraid of what happens if things go wrong to root against him. Haha as such I'll take the wins where I can get them.


I'm always rooting for our President regardless of party.  Unfortunately, he, or his administration, has an uncanny knack of making exactly the wrong decisions and his continued cognitive decline is bordering on dangerous for our country.  Best case scenario is this administration will go down as the least proactive and most reactive of all time.  Worst case scenario? They make the Carter administration look competent.


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## whatithink (Apr 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> I support his comment about *removing Biden from power*, I agree with him.  However, his administration clearly didn't appreciate him going off script.  The Newsweek opinion is comical but might be accurate in terms of his finest moment which is the worlds lowest bar.  Biden hasn't totally botched the Ukraine/Russian matter like Afghanistan, but he continues to lead from behind and the Ukrainians success is propping up his "day late and dollar short" policies.
> 
> Wasn't thinking about his comments adding to Russian hate of the West, but adding more fuel to Putin's justifications for invading Ukraine.


I'm assuming you had a Freudian slip above. I'm not sure what Biden was supposed to have done differently wrt Ukraine. Putting troops in there or a no-fly zone are non-starters imv, so providing arms, being open with the world on what was going on and working with Nato allies to put together a united front was & is the way to go. 

Its not like the US can tell Putin what to do.

WRT Afghanistan, that was a shit show. Biden (who has advocated withdrawing since 2012 as I recall) should have shipped the thousands of troops back that Trump had withdrawn and used them to manage the withdrawal more effectively. That said, withdrawing was always the right choice, and it was always going to be a shit show irrespective of who was in charge as the Taliban was always going to just take over again.

With all the commentary about Biden's ad lib moment, I found this funny


----------



## watfly (Apr 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I'm assuming you had a Freudian slip above. I'm not sure what Biden was supposed to have done differently wrt Ukraine. Putting troops in there or a no-fly zone are non-starters imv, so providing arms, being open with the world on what was going on and working with Nato allies to put together a united front was & is the way to go.
> 
> Its not like the US can tell Putin what to do.
> 
> ...


Ha, ha, yes Freudian slip (I can't say I'd want that, alternatives may be worse).  I'd give Biden a C- on Ukraine.  He has been reactive instead of proactive.  I appreciate the concept of not provoking Putin but you have to show a higher level of strength then what Biden has.  It was obvious that Putin was going to invade Ukraine, IMO he should have done pre-emptive sanctions (that's part of the reason Biden is now backtracking on sanctions as a deterrence...too little, too late).  Now he is blocking the use of the Polish MIGS even though I believe the other NATO countries have all agreed.   I'm with you against the "no fly zone" and "boots on the ground".  I'm also with you that I think its hypocritical that some on the right have criticized Biden for saying "Putin Cannot Remain in Power".  I liked that he said that and I even can appreciate his explanation for saying it.  But by the same token some of the those on the left are hypocritical that keep saying we can't provoke Putin into World War III, yet aren't critical of him for saying that Putin can't stay in power.  To me its more escalatory to directly threaten Putin's power than it is to send MIGs...I'm personally in favor of both.

I will repeat this again, Zelensky's leadership and Ukraine's resolve have propped up NATO's and the US's response to the crisis and has mitigated the slow roll out of sanctions and other actions.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> Ha, ha, yes Freudian slip (I can't say I'd want that, alternatives may be worse).  I'd give Biden a C- on Ukraine.  He has been reactive instead of proactive.  I appreciate the concept of not provoking Putin but you have to show a higher level of strength then what Biden has.  It was obvious that Putin was going to invade Ukraine, IMO he should have done pre-emptive sanctions (that's part of the reason Biden is now backtracking on sanctions as a deterrence...too little, too late).  Now he is blocking the use of the Polish MIGS even though I believe the other NATO countries have all agreed.   I'm with you against the "no fly zone" and "boots on the ground".  I'm also with you that I think its hypocritical that some on the right have criticized Biden for saying "Putin Cannot Remain in Power".  I liked that he said that and I even can appreciate his explanation for saying it.  But by the same token some of the those on the left are hypocritical that keep saying we can't provoke Putin into World War III, yet aren't critical of him for saying that Putin can't stay in power.  To me its more escalatory to directly threaten Putin's power than it is to send MIGs...I'm personally in favor of both.
> 
> I will repeat this again, Zelensky's leadership and Ukraine's resolve have propped up NATO's and the US's response to the crisis and has mitigated the slow roll out of sanctions and other actions.


I don't think there would have been the buy in on sanctions prior to the invasion - it would have been a crazy hard sell, and if anything, it would have reinforced Putin's perceived grievance with the West / Nato etc. and given him justification along the lines of "we might as well as they are punishing us for nothing", kind of thing. Germany in particular has been in denial until it was real. 

I agree there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around, its the one thing both the left and right have in common - they are both hypocrites.


----------



## crush (Apr 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> *Ha, ha, yes Freudian slip (I can't say I'd want that, alternatives may be worse).  I'd give Biden a C- on Ukraine.*


A C-?  Are you joking and just playing a fool today?  Lol, I am a fool as well so don;t take anything I say serious Wat Fly.  I sure wish I had teachers like you grading my school work back in the day.  "Slow down son" they would say.  Our school system needs a big clean up.  Joe get's a big fat F for all that he has done to us and how he's handled everything, including the BS in Ukraine and the gas prices going up to $7.  He and his son and few other kids ran rough house on all of us in Ukraine and you give the Big Guy a C-?  Please, check your grading system and re grade please.  Regarding Hunter and his lap top from hell, he needs help for sure but he capitulated with the Creator. He made a deal with the good guys bro after breaking up with Satan.  He was born into hell dude.  He made a good choice and dropped off his MacBook at Mac's place.  What a sting operation, right?  All of Hunter's biz pals were either indicted or worse, they disappeared and never to be seen again alive, just like a fart in the wind.  So he made a deal to save himself and I appreciate it 100%.  Epstein made a similar deal as well and caught everyone on camera as well, doing horrible things.  I bet Hunter was told to get everything and anything on video and all the emails and just drop off at Mac's place when finished and go live out the rest of your life at Gitmo on the beach.  No one drops off all their crimes and then forgets to go pick them up, right?  Come on man, think outside the box and just think to yourself what you would have done if you grew up in a house like that.


----------



## watfly (Apr 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> I don't think there would have been the buy in on sanctions prior to the invasion - it would have been a crazy hard sell, and if anything, it would have reinforced Putin's perceived grievance with the West / Nato etc. and given him justification along the lines of "we might as well as they are punishing us for nothing", kind of thing. Germany in particular has been in denial until it was real.
> 
> I agree there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around, its the one thing both the left and right have in common - they are both hypocrites.


You may be right, but strong leaders sell hard things.  Look at Zelensky.  Maybe hindsight is 20/20 but Putin didn't need an excuse or rationalization to attack Ukraine.   Putin had 100,000 troops on the border, it was obvious what he was going to do regardless of any rationalizations he needed from the West.  Biden slow rolled sanctions on the banks, SWIFT, oil imports etc.  He only gave into pressure supported by the success of Ukraine.  That's not leadership.


----------



## crush (Apr 1, 2022)

watfly said:


> You may be right, but strong leaders sell hard things.  Look at Zelensky.  Maybe hindsight is 20/20 but Putin didn't need an excuse or rationalization to attack Ukraine.   Putin had 100,000 troops on the border, it was obvious what he was going to do regardless of any rationalizations he needed from the West.  Biden slow rolled sanctions on the banks, SWIFT, oil imports etc.  He only gave into pressure supported by the success of Ukraine.  That's not leadership.


The Kool Aid bro is way to strong for you in the morning.  I swear you will be kicking yourself later for watching too much fake news.  Stop watching the news and see what happens to your mind.  Stop eating meat to see how healthy you can become and stop drinking booze and you will feel like a new man.  I quit these three things and now I try and help my brothers out.  I lose 99% of them on all three of the first requirements to change.  Love you man   The truth is the truth.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> You may be right, but strong leaders sell hard things.  Look at Zelensky.  Maybe hindsight is 20/20 but Putin didn't need an excuse or rationalization to attack Ukraine.   Putin had 100,000 troops on the border, it was obvious what he was going to do regardless of any rationalizations he needed from the West.  Biden slow rolled sanctions on the banks, SWIFT, oil imports etc.  He only gave into pressure supported by the success of Ukraine.  That's not leadership.


Biden didn't slow roll sanctions. Sanctions have slow rolled because not everyone agreed or agrees. Zelensky's leadership qualities have been excellent since the invasion, but nobody was talking up those qualities prior to the invasion, its been more of a "cometh the hour .." kind of thing. Prior to then there were major doubts, i.e. ex-actor, no real political experience etc. 

The whole sanctions thing is a mixed bag, on the one side the US wanted harsher sanctions on oil/gas which the Europeans resisted & still resist due to their reliance on both, and on the other the US resisted harsher sanctions on SWIFT and still do to some extent, not least as if countries move away from settling in USD (see the Saudi / China conversations on settling for Oil in CNY) then watch a major crash / hit on the US economy as the value of the USD falls. There is a lot more at play than "just" Ukraine or Russia, i.e. there will always be ripple effects to actions or there can be tsunamis - you don't want the latter obviously.

The premise that a US president can lead or that countries will just follow is nonsense. China and Russia have been exerting soft power in under developed countries for the last couple of decades while the US has pulled back, not least due to cultural wars (making aid dependent on some US cultural tick box or calling them "shitty countries"). There is a long list of African countries that abstained in the UN, countries that have benefited from Chinese investment and Russian oil. A US president, 1 year into their term doesn't get to turn around the long term plans of countries that are executing multi decade plans on a whim or in a few weeks.

Another implication of all this, with the Europeans deciding to arm up, is that once they do, they will be less reliant on the US and as a result less inclined to fall lock step behind the US. So, while the US wants them to increase spending, it will ultimately have a negative impact on the US's leadership position imv.


----------



## crush (Apr 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> *Zelensky's leadership qualities have been excellent.*
> *Prior to then there were major doubts, i.e. ex-actor, no real political experience etc.*


----------



## watfly (Apr 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> The premise that a US president can lead or that countries will just follow is nonsense.


Well not much to debate if that's your self defeating attitude that our President can't be a global leader.


----------



## crush (Apr 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> Well not much to debate if that's your self defeating attitude that our President can't be a global leader.


At least the President of Ukraine can dance.  Watfly, do you see the truth yet?  This is a movie with actors playing roles bro.  Come on man....lol


----------



## whatithink (Apr 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> Well not much to debate if that's your self defeating attitude that our President can't be a global leader.


You need to re-read what I said. The US does not dictate. If your position is that the US president decides on a direction and then tells everyone to line up behind us, then you are deluded. If you think the US telling everyone which way to go is leadership, then you are sorely misguided.

Its called building a coalition, not creating a coalition. Biden has built a unified coalition who have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. The US is clearly leading that coalition, but that does not mean that everyone does whatever the US says, its a constant dialogue esp. with respect to further escalations. Nato has never been as unified in decades. "Allies" of Russia, such as Hungary, are aligned against it.


----------



## crush (Apr 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> *Biden has built a unified coalition who have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. *


and severe heart attacks, blood clots, super big inflation and $7 a gal for gas around the corner for the middle age and middle class person in the USA.  Are you smoking crack?  Be honest.  Have you seen what is on Hunters laptop from hell?  How about Wieners laptop?


----------



## watfly (Apr 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> You need to re-read what I said. The US does not dictate. If your position is that the US president decides on a direction and then tells everyone to line up behind us, then you are deluded. If you think the US telling everyone which way to go is leadership, then you are sorely misguided.
> 
> Its called building a coalition, not creating a coalition. Biden has built a unified coalition who have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. The US is clearly leading that coalition, but that does not mean that everyone does whatever the US says, its a constant dialogue esp. with respect to further escalations. Nato has never been as unified in decades. "Allies" of Russia, such as Hungary, are aligned against it.


You need to reread as well, both what you said and what I said.  I never said the US can dictate, but it does have far more leverage to influence.  Your also deluded if you think Biden has a built a coalition, he was typically the last of the NATO leaders to come around to the sanctions.  He was also the one that put the kibosh on the MIG's.


----------



## crush (Apr 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> *He was also the one that put the kibosh on the MIG's.*


Thank God.  Why are so many bent on more war intervention with our military in other folks conflicts?  Biden is doing exactly what he is told to do and nothing else, trust me. He is one of many puppets being pulled by the Big Guys, the guys pulling all the strings.  They love to play war with fear and make money on the wars through our leaders fears.


----------



## whatithink (Apr 2, 2022)

watfly said:


> You need to reread as well, both what you said and what I said.  I never said the US can dictate, but it does have far more leverage to influence.  Your also deluded if you think Biden has a built a coalition, he was typically the last of the NATO leaders to come around to the sanctions.  He was also the one that put the kibosh on the MIG's.


You took a single sentence from a paragraph and concluded that I was self-defeatist and that I was asserting that our President can't be a global leader. I'm fine with what I wrote. I laid out why a President in power for a year would have challenges countering decades old policies of China & Russia, you offered nothing more than a blanket statement in relation to that paragraph.

What is this "more leverage"? The US has very little leverage over Opec+ which includes Russia. It has very little leverage over the score or more of African countries who look to China & Russia as partners, because of what they have *already* done. It clearly has very little leverage over China or India unless it wants to start sanctions there and potentially crash the global economy. 

The expectation of instant everything these days is mind boggling. In less than 40 days, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, Nato has united like nothing before, the Russian economy is a basket case, arms are flowing into the Ukraine, the EU is united and neutral European countries are in lockstep along with traditional non-European allies like Japan, Australia etc. (hint: that's the coalition), hundreds of billions will now be spent on military spending (awesome conclusion that!), the Russian military has been shown to be inept - it could get better or catastrophically worse in the next 40 days. 

Feel free to offer Biden your magic 8-ball to solve this, I'm sure he'd like nothing better than to magic it all away - I mean its not very complicated is it, just be a Global Leader and viola, we're done!


----------



## watfly (Apr 2, 2022)

whatithink said:


> You took a single sentence from a paragraph and concluded that I was self-defeatist and that I was asserting that our President can't be a global leader. I'm fine with what I wrote. I laid out why a President in power for a year would have challenges countering decades old policies of China & Russia, you offered nothing more than a blanket statement in relation to that paragraph.
> 
> What is this "more leverage"? The US has very little leverage over Opec+ which includes Russia. It has very little leverage over the score or more of African countries who look to China & Russia as partners, because of what they have *already* done. It clearly has very little leverage over China or India unless it wants to start sanctions there and potentially crash the global economy.
> 
> ...


Well I gave Biden a C- on Ukraine.  That greatly raises his foreign policy and overall GPA. I think we both believe he dserves an F on Afghanistan.  Its a tough balance on Russia between being weak and reckless.  IMO his timing on Russia has been weak but I'm no foreign policy expert, just a voter, and no way to know if he showed more strength on this issue whether the outcome would be any different.  Putin is a wild card.

As far as leverage goes energy security is a big factor in geopolitical leverage.  I have a vague recollection that you may not agree with that.  Secretary Granholms infamous comments from a couple months ago combined with our current gas prices illustrate how important energy security (not completely accurate to say independence) is to our country.

Thanks for the debate.  Here's to hoping things improve.


----------



## crush (Apr 4, 2022)




----------



## espola (Apr 4, 2022)

Just wondering if blam is still a Putin supporter today.


----------



## blam (Apr 4, 2022)

espola said:


> Just wondering if blam is still a Putin supporter today.


I go where the facts say, and it has been hard to figure out the facts from the fakes news. There is a crisis of credibility in the mainstream presses. The hunter biden admission by NYT really shook me. 

Today, it is clear, very clear, that the dissenting voices are censored and opinions are formed based on the type of media consumed. This is why the Western european governments and youtube banned Russia Today. What you read affects how you think. I sometimes have to ask myself to make sure that I am not deciding something based on what I read and hear but I am thinking independently and critically.

None of these would have happened if not for Euromaidan 2014, supported by the US, an illegal overthrow of the then Ukrainian president. This led to a break away of states that disagreed with overthrow, creating a civil war, and an opportunity for Putin to play the rescuer to enter Crimea where he was greeted with open arms by the majority pro Russian population. The radical neo Nazi group of Ukraine which disagreed with the Minsk accord did not help and forced the weak Ukrainian government to not have the sufficient political will to resolve the conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

The same "playbook" is used now by Putin to enter Eastern Ukraine to stop the civil war in Ukraine. He is again greeted with open arms as the locals want to see an end to the civil war.

The people of Ukraine are stuck in the middle, and become the victims. 

From the trend of things, I see Russia expanding into Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine would be broken in 2. 

Moral of the story, like so many, never illegally overthrow the government of a foreign nation. The CIA has been doing this for the last maybe 100 years. Where has this gone well.


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## blam (Apr 4, 2022)

crush said:


>


Zelensky is an oligarch puppet. The source is from US government's own Radio free europe before they got the memo to stop making stories like these.


----------



## blam (Apr 4, 2022)

Zoo during war time. This guy has been doing very good reporting


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## espola (Apr 4, 2022)

blam said:


> I go where the facts say, and it has been hard to figure out the facts from the fakes news. There is a crisis of credibility in the mainstream presses. The hunter biden admission by NYT really shook me.
> 
> Today, it is clear, very clear, that the dissenting voices are censored and opinions are formed based on the type of media consumed. This is why the Western european governments and youtube banned Russia Today. What you read affects how you think. I sometimes have to ask myself to make sure that I am not deciding something based on what I read and hear but I am thinking independently and critically.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of words to just say "yes".


----------



## watfly (Apr 6, 2022)

Putting aside what you might think of either person, check out Sean Hannity's interview of Sean Penn on his trip/documentary to Ukraine.  Most fascinating interview I've seen in a long time.


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## blam (Apr 6, 2022)

Saw the interview and again it continues on the mainstream media narrative of the event, that all this started just a month ago when Putin decides to invade Ukraine in order to expand Russia land and to regain the glorious days of the old Soviet Union for Russia.

All this started due to an illegal overthrow of a pro Russia president in 2014 in Kiev and replaced with a pro Euro President. What should regions that were  pro Russia supposed to do after the overthrow? Just accept the new illegal President? Of course they rebelled and thus started the civil war. The illegal overthrow was the trigger. If the capitol attack in 2021 by Trump supporters managed to keep Trump in power despite Biden winning the election, are Biden supporters just supposed to accept Trump because Biden had been overthrow by rioters? Of course not.

This is the mainstaream narrative in summary by Arnold.





This is the response by the Russian side by a powerlifter who met Arnold.






Both sides are valid, so it is a travesty that the alternative view point is being censorred all over. Russia Today removed. Pro Russia twitter account banned etc. etc. etc. to make sure that the general public subscribes to the mainstream narrative. These practices actually started from Covid, but in the days of Covid, one could argue that there is medical-scientific misinformation (not true in many cases),  however, this is political speech. Both arguments are valid. Censorship continues...


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 6, 2022)

Putin is cut from the same cloth as Stalin, Hitler & Mao....


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## blam (Apr 7, 2022)

For the left, look at the mirror to see what you have become over the past 2 years. You all have left the Democratic party.


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## blam (Apr 7, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Putin is cut from the same cloth as Stalin, Hitler & Mao....


Cold war overhang...in case you do not recognize the symptoms.


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## N00B (Apr 11, 2022)

@blam When you realize that even on a soccer forum ‘off-topic’ thread, that no one agrees with you…  like, not even slightly… you must find that hard to reconcile.  Not a swift learner?


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## espola (Apr 11, 2022)

N00B said:


> @blam When you realize that even on a soccer forum ‘off-topic’ thread, that no one agrees with you…  like, not even slightly… you must find that hard to reconcile.  Not a swift learner?


He's not the only one who posts in here compulsively despite being ignored or at best mocked.


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## watfly (Apr 11, 2022)

espola said:


> He's not the only one who posts in here compulsively despite being ignored or at best mocked.


You're not normally known for self deprecating humor, is this the new Espola?


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## espola (Apr 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're not normally known for self deprecating humor, is this the new Espola?


I appreciate the characterization even if it is significantly wrong.


----------



## crush (Apr 11, 2022)

watfly said:


> You're not normally known for self deprecating humor, is this the new Espola?


I liked Espola before this version of forum and at the beginning of this new version 4 some years ago.  I trigger people sometimes and he super ignored me because.  First and only avatar he ever super ignored and I take it as honor.  Grace T has some love for him and I do to.  We all need forgiveness and mercy and grace.  Everyone needs a second chance at life.  This new game will be about service, not pay to play.


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## blam (Apr 11, 2022)

N00B said:


> @blam When you realize that even on a soccer forum ‘off-topic’ thread, that no one agrees with you…  like, not even slightly… you must find that hard to reconcile.  Not a swift learner?


Does not matter. At least for me, it is a good opportunity to practice my foreign language. Write in a foreign language and then use google translate to translate to English. I avoid writers block this way as the topic ticked me into inspirational mode.


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## watfly (Apr 11, 2022)

espola said:


> I appreciate the characterization even if it is significantly wrong.


Well when you serve up softballs I have to take a swing.


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## crush (Apr 12, 2022)

*Sean Penn 'thinking about taking up arms against Russia' to defend Ukraine*
*Actor was in Ukraine filming a documentary when Russia invaded in February*


----------



## tenacious (Apr 14, 2022)

blam said:


> I go where the facts say, and it has been hard to figure out the facts from the fakes news. There is a crisis of credibility in the mainstream presses. The hunter biden admission by NYT really shook me.
> 
> Today, it is clear, very clear, that the dissenting voices are censored and opinions are formed based on the type of media consumed. This is why the Western european governments and youtube banned Russia Today. What you read affects how you think. I sometimes have to ask myself to make sure that I am not deciding something based on what I read and hear but I am thinking independently and critically.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that in international politics, just like the rest of life, there are two sides to every argument. American news, Russian news, German news... pick your flavor.  At the end of the day I think most people love their country and support the home team and the bias in 'free' news sources reflects this. 

But at the same time, rather than just being a homer I think it's important for free speech to exist... because, well in life you gotta trust but verify. It's an imperfect system and this is the best I think I can do?


----------



## crush (Apr 14, 2022)

tenacious said:


> It seems to me that in international politics, just like the rest of life, there are two sides to every argument. American news, Russian news, German news... pick your flavor.  *At the end of the day I think most people love their country and support the home team* and the bias in 'free' news sources reflects this.
> 
> But at the same time, rather than just being a homer I think it's important for *free speech* to exist... because, well in life you gotta trust but verify.


No, most people love themselves first and then the dollar.  Also, if you start with, "take these jabs or your fired", we have no freedom!


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## crush (Apr 14, 2022)

*6 US lawmakers arrive in Taiwan for surprise visit, China issues warning*
"China firmly opposes any form of official interaction between the U.S. and China’s Taiwan region," the spokesperson for the Chinese government tweeted Thursday.  Red line has been crossed!!!

Someone might want to start a new thread, 'War in Taiwan soon?"  Lindsey and the boys need war and want it bad for so many reasons.  He was all over Ukraine with the Maverick after HRC lost.  This is not looking good everyone.  Russia and now China.  Oh boy.


----------



## crush (Apr 15, 2022)




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## blam (Apr 18, 2022)

Wow.  It is always good to get both sides. You can get war crimes accusations committed by Russiasn troops from the CNNs. This one is the other side, by the Ukranian side.


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## blam (Apr 18, 2022)

Ukraine and Russia had a framework to restore peace in Eastern Ukraine called the Minsk accord. However, Ukraine had a hard time and lack of political will. This picture below is very telling. Here in 2019 President Zelensky tells his soldier to disarm but his soldier refuses. This region is where the Nazi batallions are stationed. Tell me, when the soldiers on the ground are not obeying their President, how can Ukraine accomplish peace in Eastern Ukraine? This is why Putin had to intervene.  Minute 5 40 seconds for context from video.


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## crush (Apr 22, 2022)




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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 22, 2022)

crush said:


> View attachment 13337


“Gee I wish old Joe Biden would help them out in Ukraine a bit more! It’s a travesty!” Heard amongst rightwing talking points.


----------



## crush (Apr 22, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Gee I wish old Joe Biden would help them out in Ukraine a bit more! It’s a travesty!” Heard amongst rightwing talking points.


I belong to no wing of either party.  I have my own wings.  I do know many wings from the left and the right that love war.


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## crush (Apr 22, 2022)

TRUMP TELLS NAZI ZELENSKY
					

Zelensky says Ukraine needs $7 Billion a month to make up for economic losses.  In 2019 be told President Trump Ukraine wants to become the richest country in Europe.  Then President Trump tells Zelensky he'd like him to meet with Putin to solve…




					www.bitchute.com


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## blam (Apr 22, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> “Gee I wish old Joe Biden would help them out in Ukraine a bit more! It’s a travesty!” Heard amongst rightwing talking points.


Ukraine aid was a knee jerk reaction. The narrative was sold as a full annexation of Ukraine by Russia.

Now it is clear what Putin really wants. its no different from the experiences of Georgia and Crimea. Putin is and had only annexed regions to protect the local majority Russian population from repression of their own governments. This can be seen from Georgia and Crimea. As in the case of both regions, once Russian troops were able to go in, they restored peace and these places flourish. So Putin really only wants the majority Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, the DNR and LNR. The people in these regions also overwhemingly want to be part of Russia. 

The tide of Western hatred against Russia is now unfortunately too late to reverse without losing face and seen as weak.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 22, 2022)

blam said:


> Ukraine aid was a knee jerk reaction. The narrative was sold as a full annexation of Ukraine by Russia.
> 
> Now it is clear what Putin really wants. its no different from the experiences of Georgia and Crimea. Putin is and had only annexed regions to protect the local majority Russian population from repression of their own governments. This can be seen from Georgia and Crimea. As in the case of both regions, once Russian troops were able to go in, they restored peace and these places flourish. So Putin really only wants the majority Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, the DNR and LNR. The people in these regions also overwhemingly want to be part of Russia.
> 
> The tide of Western hatred against Russia is now unfortunately too late to reverse without losing face and seen as weak.


Murdering civilians isn’t protecting anyone. Mass graves and bullet holes in peoples backs tells the story. Everyone knows it’s Putin’s doing not the Russian people. Once he’s gone things will change.


----------



## crush (Apr 24, 2022)

Climate Change Tank!!!


----------



## crush (Apr 24, 2022)

*Mariupol has fallen.  Azov Brigade is no mas according to ALJAZEERA News.*


----------



## crush (Apr 25, 2022)

*What's up with the smiles?  *


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Apr 25, 2022)

crush said:


> *What's up with the smiles?  *
> 
> View attachment 13366


Don’t act stupid. If you really are that’s ok, but if you aren’t it’s not cute to act that way.


----------



## blam (Apr 27, 2022)

crush said:


> *Mariupol has fallen.  Azov Brigade is no mas according to ALJAZEERA News.*


This brigade needs to be reigned in. I recall an earlier BBC documentary of this brigade attacking the Ukrainian army over a smuggling route around 2015. Then another video of this brigade refusing to obey orders from Ukraines President.

This brigade is single handedly the trigger that caused Ukraine to be broken up now and forced Putin to intervene. Without it, the Minsk accord could have brought peace into the region.


----------



## crush (Apr 27, 2022)

blam said:


> This brigade needs to be reigned in. I recall an earlier BBC documentary of this brigade attacking the Ukrainian army over a smuggling route around 2015. Then another video of this brigade refusing to obey orders from Ukraines President.
> 
> This brigade is single handedly the trigger that caused Ukraine to be broken up now and forced Putin to intervene. Without it, the Minsk accord could have brought peace into the region.


These guys are nasty and kill before asking questions.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Apr 27, 2022)

blam said:


> Ukraine aid was a knee jerk reaction. The narrative was sold as a full annexation of Ukraine by Russia.
> 
> Now it is clear what Putin really wants. its no different from the experiences of Georgia and Crimea. Putin is and had only annexed regions to protect the local majority Russian population from repression of their own governments. This can be seen from Georgia and Crimea. As in the case of both regions, once Russian troops were able to go in, they restored peace and these places flourish. So Putin really only wants the majority Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, the DNR and LNR. The people in these regions also overwhemingly want to be part of Russia.
> 
> The tide of Western hatred against Russia is now unfortunately too late to reverse without losing face and seen as weak.


Fuck Putin.
He's a war criminal and a piece of shit.
Any "hatred" of Russia falls squarely on Putin.
Stop swilling the kool aid


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## Desert Hound (Apr 28, 2022)

Some observations.

- It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.

They of course have not.

- Russian equipment is not as good as was thought. In large part the country relies on a few major contractors all of which are corrupt. In the US we have a variety of manufacturers responsible for producing planes. In Russia basically all planes are produced by one company. There is no competition, oversight, etc.

The failure rate of missiles in Ukraine has been shockingly high.

Etc etc.

That said they have enough munitions to blanket bomb/level cities.

- Russian logistics are terrible
- Russian on the ground leadership is terrible. They still suffer from the fact they do not use NCO's in the fashion that the West does. By that it means allowing NCO's to make on the ground decisions as events unfold. Essentially their decision making is not nimble.
- Planning...which involves leadership has been poor. They way they have moved armor around has left them very vulnerable to Ukrainian defenses. The Russians have not used infantry properly to help protect armor.
- Maybe most surprising is how with all their planes, Russia still does not posses air superiority over the Ukrainians.
- The bulk of their forces are made up of poorly trained conscripts. They serve 12 months. That is enough to get some basic training in, but not enough to match the professionalism of lets say US troops who have longer terms/more training. The lack of training is very apparent in terms of how badly the Russians have done in Ukraine.

All in all it has been rather eye opening in terms of how badly they have performed since the invasion.


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## Desert Hound (Apr 28, 2022)

An interesting read. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519160793790656513


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## Desert Hound (Apr 28, 2022)

Operation Z: The Death Throes of an Imperial Delusion
					

Russia's military setbacks in Ukraine pose a new set of security challenges in Europe and beyond.




					rusi.org


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## Hüsker Dü (Apr 28, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> Some observations.
> 
> - It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.
> 
> ...


All the while vlad has his finger on the ultimate trump card . . . or does he? At what point does the damage caused outweigh the risks involved? WWIII seems almost inevitable with China waiting to see. Of course this all could be avoided, but time will tell.


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## crush (Apr 28, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> All the while vlad has his finger on the ultimate trump card . . . or does he? At what point does the damage caused outweigh the risks involved? WWIII seems almost inevitable with China waiting to see. Of course this all could be avoided, but time will tell.


Stop dreaming of world war 3 and start dreaming of peace Husker.  War war and more war.  Rumors of war is being played in everyones brain becauae its whats being played 24/7 on the news.  You are what you think.  Think love and you will make love. Think war and you will make war!


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## blam (Apr 28, 2022)

Desert Hound said:


> - It was assumed the Russians would roll through Ukraine in a matter of days.
> 
> They of course have not.


Already wrong. This is what the CNNs and BBCs tried to sell but it is not Putins original intention. Do you think Putin wants another Vietnam or Afganistan? 

From Putins past actions in Crimea and Georgia, he is only into areas where there are large Russian populations and the Russian population are oppressed by their government, and the local population overwhelming voted to join Russia. This is true in Eastern Ukraine.


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## crush (Apr 28, 2022)

blam said:


> Already wrong. This is what the CNNs and BBCs tried to sell but it is not Putins original intention. Do you think Putin wants another Vietnam or Afganistan?
> 
> From Putins past actions in Crimea and Georgia, he is only into areas where there are large Russian populations and the Russian population are oppressed by their government, and the local population overwhelming voted to join Russia. This is true in Eastern Ukraine.


The war channels are doing a number on all my friends.  The only one who knows the real scoop is my best friend Colin.  His dad was born in Kiev.  His mom is a big time liberal attorney.  The guy can read people like a book and 100% tells me that the Russians in Ukraine have been getting killed since 2014 and attacked financially.  He told me to tell everyone on here to watch where you get the news.  Again, where two fight no one is right.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 28, 2022)

blam said:


> Already wrong. This is what the CNNs and BBCs tried to sell but it is not Putins original intention. Do you think Putin wants another Vietnam or Afganistan?
> 
> From Putins past actions in Crimea and Georgia, he is only into areas where there are large Russian populations and the Russian population are oppressed by their government, and the local population overwhelming voted to join Russia. This is true in Eastern Ukraine.


Poppycock.....
Putin is a narcissistic mass murderer and his slaughter of innocent people repeats Hitler's invasion of his neighbors and the murder of millions...


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## crush (Apr 29, 2022)

*$33*,000,000,000 to Ukraine from the Big Guy.  What a number.  Symbolism will be their down fall!!!  Club 33 is fired up and can't wait to get their pay day finally for selling their souls.  It's all about $$$$ and the folks fighting for Joe and Hunter need to get paid.  No one acts like this for free.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 29, 2022)

crush said:


> *$33*,000,000,000 to Ukraine from the Big Guy.  What a number.  Symbolism will be their down fall!!!  Club 33 is fired up and can't wait to get their pay day finally for selling their souls.  It's all about $$$$ and the folks fighting for Joe and Hunter need to get paid.  No one acts like this for free.


They do act like this for freedom...


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## blam (Apr 29, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Poppycock.....
> Putin is a narcissistic mass murderer and his slaughter of innocent people repeats Hitler's invasion of his neighbors and the murder of millions...


I have said all I wanted to say. I started this thread trying to learn more about this region and realized the propaganda behind his war later. I have no interest to support or not support Putin. I have nothing against him or against Ukrainians or Russians. To repeat again my view again is to sound like a broken record.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 29, 2022)

blam said:


> I have said all I wanted to say. I started this thread trying to learn more about this region and realized the propaganda behind his war later. I have no interest to support or not support Putin. I have nothing against him or against Ukrainians or Russians. To repeat again my view again is to sound like a broken record.


I personally don't care for war criminals & the lies they tell...


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## tenacious (Apr 30, 2022)

blam said:


> I have said all I wanted to say. I started this thread trying to learn more about this region and realized the propaganda behind his war later. I have no interest to support or not support Putin. I have nothing against him or against Ukrainians or Russians. To repeat again my view again is to sound like a broken record.


I don't know Blam. Look at a map. The regions you're saying support Putin and need saving from Ukraine have been fighting off the Russians for over a month in bloody, look in the other guys eyes, urban warfare. I'm sorry, but for me your claims of a better understanding of the situation just don't line up with the reality of Russians laying waste to the cities and people in the exact regions you're claiming view the Russians as liberators.


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## espola (Apr 30, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> I personally don't care for war criminals & the lies they tell...


Speaking of which, why aren't Dick Cheney and friends in jail?  The only one who took any kind of a fall was Scooter Libby, and t pardoned him.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Speaking of which, why aren't Dick Cheney and friends in jail?  The only one who took any kind of a fall was Scooter Libby, and t pardoned him.


Could you post information regarding an investigation, trial and conviction of VP Cheney ?
Thanks Magoo


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## espola (Apr 30, 2022)

Lion Eyes said:


> Could you post information regarding an investigation, trial and conviction of VP Cheney ?
> Thanks Magoo


It seems you got the point.


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## Lion Eyes (Apr 30, 2022)

espola said:


> It seems you got the point.


Yep...seems you're just posting horseshit as Putin is Stalin reincarnate.


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## crush (May 1, 2022)

*Pelosi makes surprise visit to Kyiv, reaffirms U.S. commitment to Ukraine in meeting with Zelenskyy.*


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## crush (May 18, 2022)

"This war is meaningless.  It does no one any good.  Drop your weapons and go home to your wife, children and relatives"  Ukraine Warrior


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## Hüsker Dü (May 25, 2022)

"[In an] open society, the rule of the state is to protect the freedom of the individual. [In a] closed society, the role of the individual is to serve the rulers of the state."
"I think Ukraine today is rendering a tremendous service to Europe and to the western world and to open society and our survival because they are fighting our fight. They have a really good chance of winning...we must give them all the support that they ask for."


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## blam (May 27, 2022)

Hüsker Dü said:


> "[In an] open society, the rule of the state is to protect the freedom of the individual. [In a] closed society, the role of the individual is to serve the rulers of the state."
> "I think Ukraine today is rendering a tremendous service to Europe and to the western world and to open society and our survival because they are fighting our fight. They have a really good chance of winning...we must give them all the support that they ask for."


I think Putin is rendering a tremendous service to the Russian people living in Ukraine. He is going to finally end the civil war and comply with their wishes to rejoin Russia. The internal strife between proEuro and proRussia will end with this division. Both sides can now part ways. The Russians living in Ukraine who previously had been forbidden to use the Russian language in Ukraine can now again use their own language.

Sorry, but it was never the intention of Russia to invade ALL of Ukraine. Russia from past actions have been selective on their targets. They are only in there to rescue the Russians who were oppressed in these nations. This pattern is seen in Georgia. This pattern is seen in Crimea. Both areas which had been occupied by Russia share 2 things in common

1. The population voted overwhelming to join Russia.
2. The population were suppressed through war and violence by their own government.

If Russia was going to invade ALL of Ukraine, then I would have been pro Ukraine. However, I have to use past actions to predict future actions.


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## crush (May 27, 2022)

blam said:


> I think Putin is rendering a tremendous service to the Russian people living in Ukraine. He is going to finally end the civil war and comply with their wishes to rejoin Russia. The internal strife between proEuro and proRussia will end with this division. Both sides can now part ways. The Russians living in Ukraine who previously had been forbidden to use the Russian language in Ukraine can now again use their own language.
> 
> Sorry, but it was never the intention of Russia to invade ALL of Ukraine. Russia from past actions have been selective on their targets. They are only in there to rescue the Russians who were oppressed in these nations. This pattern is seen in Georgia. This pattern is seen in Crimea. Both areas which had been occupied by Russia share 2 things in common
> 
> ...


Zelensky now wants all Ukraines to have their lives back.  He said it's time for a meeting to get back to normal.  War amd Covid make a few rich and a few who got fired for no jab or killed so others get rich


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## Lion Eyes (May 27, 2022)

blam said:


> I think Putin is rendering a tremendous service to the Russian people living in Ukraine. He is going to finally end the civil war and comply with their wishes to rejoin Russia. The internal strife between proEuro and proRussia will end with this division. Both sides can now part ways. The Russians living in Ukraine who previously had been forbidden to use the Russian language in Ukraine can now again use their own language.
> 
> Sorry, but it was never the intention of Russia to invade ALL of Ukraine. Russia from past actions have been selective on their targets. They are only in there to rescue the Russians who were oppressed in these nations. This pattern is seen in Georgia. This pattern is seen in Crimea. Both areas which had been occupied by Russia share 2 things in common
> 
> ...


Come on blam blam...
Who certified the "overwhelming" vote to join Russia?
The Russians did attack all parts of Ukraine and why wouldn't they? The place was being governed by NAZI....

Pffff....


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## Hüsker Dü (May 27, 2022)

blam said:


> I think Putin is rendering a tremendous service to the Russian people living in Ukraine. He is going to finally end the civil war and comply with their wishes to rejoin Russia. The internal strife between proEuro and proRussia will end with this division. Both sides can now part ways. The Russians living in Ukraine who previously had been forbidden to use the Russian language in Ukraine can now again use their own language.
> 
> Sorry, but it was never the intention of Russia to invade ALL of Ukraine. Russia from past actions have been selective on their targets. They are only in there to rescue the Russians who were oppressed in these nations. This pattern is seen in Georgia. This pattern is seen in Crimea. Both areas which had been occupied by Russia share 2 things in common
> 
> ...


You are wrong.


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## crush (Jul 12, 2022)

The war is still going on and we just sent another $1.7B.  Small Business is now at a 48 year low of any confidence. The losers plan was to destroy mom & pop small biz here in America and then send all the cash to Ukraine.


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## crush (Oct 8, 2022)




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## crush (Oct 23, 2022)

This is not a drill. Please pray for every soldier in our Armed Forces.


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## crush (Oct 25, 2022)

PREDICTIVE PROGRAMMING „LORD OF WAR“
					






					www.bitchute.com


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