# Game fixing



## Eagle33 (Jul 29, 2016)

This is unbelievable to me to even comprehend.....
http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/two-youth-teams-apparently-fixed-a-match-at-a-tournament-072916


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## Wez (Jul 29, 2016)

"Both teams were through *pretty much*, so there was nothing to play for," he said. "We just told our players, if the other team has the ball at the back, just don't press them. There's no reason to run around and kill yourselves during this event.

"I do understand that in terms of the event, you have to play the game. But the result was meaningless. We weren't match fixing."

Did the scores from their match matter to other teams in terms of their placements?


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## Eagle33 (Jul 29, 2016)

Wez said:


> "Both teams were through *pretty much*, so there was nothing to play for," he said. "We just told our players, if the other team has the ball at the back, just don't press them. There's no reason to run around and kill yourselves during this event.
> 
> "I do understand that in terms of the event, you have to play the game. But the result was meaningless. We weren't match fixing."
> 
> Did the scores from their match matter to other teams in terms of their placements?


Of course they did, it helps to read the whole article


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## Wez (Jul 29, 2016)

Eagle33 said:


> Of course they did, it helps to read the whole article


I see now, my bad.


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## Dana Flip (Jul 29, 2016)

Both teams should be thrown out of the competition!! They denied the possibility(a very slim one) of Syracuse Development Academy to overtake them.  All four teams played at the same time and with the "head-to-head" being tied for both (Ambassadors FC and Syracuse Development Academy) the only way Syracuse Development Academy to advance and overtake (SDA)is to win their game (which they did 4-1) and for Ambassadors FC to lose and have a final result of a goal differential that would equate to a -4........That would mean a loss by Ambassadors FC could have possibly been score of 0-6. Slim as it may be of that possibility...we will never know cause the two teams decided it would be in their best interest to do what they did....."match fixing".


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## softwaretest (Jul 29, 2016)

Both teams should be kicked out of the competition. The coaches from both teams should get a lifetime ban from nationals and USSoccer should pull its girls academy allocation from Carlsbad.


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## Marauder1 (Jul 29, 2016)

http://championships.usyouthsoccer.org/2016__130_pm__field_4__u18g/

Broadcast of the game has been removed from the website... hmm


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## Nut Meg (Jul 29, 2016)

This is probably kinda awkward for Duggan and co.


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## Sped (Jul 29, 2016)

softwaretest said:


> Both teams should be kicked out of the competition. The coaches from both teams should get a lifetime ban from nationals and USSoccer should pull its girls academy allocation from Carlsbad.


LOL.


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## Swoosh (Jul 29, 2016)

I would suspend both coaches.  Let the kids play.  But suspend the coaches indefinitely.


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## PaytoplayinLancaster? (Jul 31, 2016)

how many parents would really want their kids to work that hard to beat a team 6-0 when they're already through?  Oh, and in 109 degree Texas heat...  After all of the thousands of dollars to get a kid good enough to get to a national championship.


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## Truth (Jul 31, 2016)

PaytoplayinLancaster? said:


> how many parents would really want their kids to work that hard to beat a team 6-0 when they're already through?  Oh, and in 109 degree Texas heat...  After all of the thousands of dollars to get a kid good enough to get to a national championship.


People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL? 

How many parents want their kids to stand around and do nothing for a hour and half when they are supposed to be COMPETING? It's not like LA Galaxy SD gave little effort, they gave zero effort.


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## Mystery Train (Aug 1, 2016)

Wow.  That's just awful.   What's funny is watching the ref in that clip.  Hustling to get in position and running around like he's calling an actual game while the players stand and roll the ball at each other (one of them is practically sitting in the background).


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## iliv (Aug 1, 2016)

And Duggan is the club director (LA galaxy San Diego)...not very nice to the girls either.   I don't understand why US soccer would want a man like this representing.    Who pays the fine?  Duggan?  Or are the parents supposed to cover this too?


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

Makes perfect sense to me they did that.  I have no issue with it.  The tournament is/was the goal, not the game.  The game was like a play in a regular game. 

I also would not calling it fixing.  It was obvious what they were doing and withing the rules.  Fixing is not obvious, and generally matters only when they are betting.
Still - it was the tournament win that was the goal.  They used what they thought was the best strategy to win the tournament.  No one wanted to give that up.

This has been going on for a while in SoCal and I expect the world.  Throw your game because you prefer one opponent over the other.  

Sometimes you back off - on purpose so you are stronger another day.  Going full gas all the time is a mistake in many sports.


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## Wez (Aug 1, 2016)

Zoro said:


> This has been going on for a while in SoCal and I expect the world.  Throw your game because you prefer one opponent over the other.


I thought this was all about development for the kids and I wasn't aware there were multi-billion dollar revenue deals riding on the results, that would compel you to stage a bogus game.


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

Wez said:


> I thought this was all about development for the kids and I wasn't aware there were multi-billion dollar revenue deals riding on the results, that would compel you to stage a bogus game.


It is not a bogus game.  It is a step on the way to the finals.  If you want to win the trophy/the title - you play for the trophy, not the steps along the way.  If the kids had thought of this, I'd be more impressed.   It also happens all the time.  Teams will play bench to keep fresh players for later (like final).  It sometimes backfires.  But it is not about playing your hardest at all times as much as it is playing your best - and that involves the brain.


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## GKDad65 (Aug 1, 2016)

Makes you proud to be apart of those organizations...NOT!

I hope with all that heat there was enough of that good ol' LAG Kool Aid to go around.


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## iliv (Aug 1, 2016)

How'd that strategy work out for Duggan?  Rubbish.    So Zoro, the goal is not the game?  The goal is the tournament?  
How about you test yourself every time you step on the field?  The fact a coach would promote or even allow that mentality is shamefull.


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

Yes the goal is the tournament.

Just like while clean sheets are nice the goal is win the game.   A GK might want a 0-0 over a 4-3 win, but a team player GK will take the 4-3 win.  I can, and DD can tell you stories about that choice being made.  Play to allow more goals so that your team will score even more goals.  Same with games.  Give one up, tie, rest best players, work on touches, make your opponents over confident, even lose so you can beat them later - finals maybe.

You test yourself every practice.  Practice was far harder than games / races for both my kids.  In a competition - you play to win.  Just because you are on the field you don't gain rights to do things that were wrong anyway (like spit, be offensive, be violent).  But at the same time the outcome and what should happen is left to the referee.  Players and coaches should figure out how to win.   Players should be kind, polite and play for whatever the prize is.

If it is a World Cup - you play for that.  No one cares about pool play.  If it is a season game where every game counts - win that game.  If the games are back to back, same day, maybe take it a bit easy on game 1 so you just win by 1 goal and have the energy to win game 2.

None of this is an ethics, moral or character thing.  Don't cheat, be honest and use your brain.  Lose, tie, or win when needed to get that trophy.

This happens all the time in elite club soccer.  

Again - don't cheat, don't do things not allowed outside of soccer.  But once in the competition - just win and leave the judgement to the officials.


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## iliv (Aug 1, 2016)

How would that play out in a world cup game?  Same standard?  It's  game fixing, pure and simple.  They mutually assured the score would be 0-0.  Spin it any way you want; not ok or ethical in sporting events (especially kids).


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

iliv said:


> How would that play out in a world cup game?  Same standard?  It's  game fixing, pure and simple.  They mutually assured the score would be 0-0.  Spin it any way you want; not ok or ethical in sporting events (especially kids).


OK - game fixing.  But only when the game is part of something bigger.  I don't think a team has ever thrown/fixed the WC.  But they may throw a game to get a better opponent to win the World Cup.

DD specific  2013 G19 National Championship.  DD's team beats defending National Champions in pool.  Winner takes top of pool, 2nd gets 2nd.  Both go on.  I notice several of their top players are sitting.  I think they expected a loss and decided to take it knowing they could come around on the other side.   We meet again in the US National Championship final.  The team we play is different than in pool.  They play different and have different players on the pitch.  DD holds to clean sheet out shot 8:1 in final 90.  We lose in OT.
My opinion is the coach threw the pool game because they knew they would go through anyway and preferred that 2nd route to the one that we took winning the pool.  I still don't know which team was better.  But they were the undisputed National Champions.  #1 of 10,000 G19s.   Kudos to them.  Well played.  IMO coach threw the pool game.


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## espola (Aug 1, 2016)

Zoro said:


> OK - game fixing.  But only when the game is part of something bigger.  I don't think a team has ever thrown/fixed the WC.  But they may throw a game to get a better opponent to win the World Cup.
> 
> DD specific  2013 G19 National Championship.  DD's team beats defending National Champions in pool.  Winner takes top of pool, 2nd gets 2nd.  Both go on.  I notice several of their top players are sitting.  I think they expected a loss and decided to take it knowing they could come around on the other side.   We meet again in the US National Championship final.  The team we play is different than in pool.  They play different and have different players on the pitch.  DD holds to clean sheet out shot 8:1 in final 90.  We lose in OT.
> My opinion is the coach threw the pool game because they knew they would go through anyway and preferred that 2nd route to the one that we took winning the pool.  I still don't know which team was better.  But they were the undisputed National Champions.  #1 of 10,000 G19s.   Kudos to them.  Well played.  IMO coach threw the pool game.


http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2013-National-Championships/Schedule/U19-Girls/Division+1/

After the first 2 rounds of preliminary games, the finalists were already set.  The only question was which one would get first-place honors. 

From your description, the other coach rested his players, and gave his bench players a chance to play a full game.  Looks like it was a good decision.


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

espola said:


> http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2013-National-Championships/Schedule/U19-Girls/Division+1/
> 
> After the first 2 rounds of preliminary games, the finalists were already set.  The only question was which one would get first-place honors.
> 
> From your description, the other coach rested his players, and gave his bench players a chance to play a full game.  Looks like it was a good decision.


I thought so too.  But it was as much a fix as mentioned in the OP.   The prize was the tournament, not the game.  "We are 1:1 in games vs the National Champs" is rather hollow.

I have a number of these examples, but would have to name names - so I'd rather not, as it is not that important.  It is however quite common at the higher levels.  And just like I would expect a teammate to swat the ball out of the goal using their hands, I'd expect a coach to throw a game (unless against the rules) to win a tournament.  

Why is anyone opposed to that?


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## espola (Aug 1, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I thought so too.  But it was as much a fix as mentioned in the OP.   The prize was the tournament, not the game.  "We are 1:1 in games vs the National Champs" is rather hollow.


Fix?  The result of the game was immaterial - win, lose, or draw the final game was going to be Blues vs NASA, so why would they throw the game?  As I said, the opposing coach took the opportunity to do good things.  Did your girl's coach do the same?  If he did, was he fixing the game also?  If he didn't he was clearly outcoached.


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## Truth (Aug 1, 2016)

If you are posting on here saying "no big deal", then you haven't watched the game film. 

I did, before it was taken down. There was an incredulous announcer, who counted 64 consecutive completed passes with zero pressure until they kicked it to the other team. This wasn't a case of not high pressing and playing in a defensive shell. Soccer wasn't even played. You could tell some of the girls were embarrassed and were not happy with what was going on. The coaches were silent. No adjustment was made at halftime. It was an embarrassing spectacle. The fact that LA Galaxy hasn't released a statement on this shows that they see nothing wrong. I'll tell you what, if I were a parent on that team I would have taken the next flight home. Even more disgusting is the contention that somehow this was a spontaneous event with no coach involvement, pushing the blame on the players. 

This is not, in any way, equivalent to tactics on the field that may not yield an optimal result like resting your starters. This was a conscious decision to NOT PLAY THE GAME, and thus is an affront to the values of sportsmanship and fair play that underpin the game we all love. 

If you are one of those people who shrugs off match fixing with the excuse that the ends justifies the means, then you are the problem.


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

espola said:


> Fix?  The result of the game was immaterial - win, lose, or draw the final game was going to be Blues vs NASA, so why would they throw the game?  As I said, the opposing coach took the opportunity to do good things.  Did your girl's coach do the same?  If he did, was he fixing the game also?  If he didn't he was clearly outcoached.


This may surprise you but in DD's case I agree.  So how was it different than the OP case?  I don't see it difference.   The opposing coach in DD's case decided not to play to win.  How is that different than the Carlsbad case?  It all sounds like good coaching to me.


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## espola (Aug 1, 2016)

Zoro said:


> This may surprise you but in DD's case I agree.  So how was it different than the OP case?  I don't see it difference.   The opposing coach in DD's case decided not to play to win.  How is that different than the Carlsbad case?  It all sounds like good coaching to me.


You don't see a difference between both teams colluding to improve their position, and two teams playing a meaningless game?


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

Truth said:


> If you are posting on here saying "no big deal", then you haven't watched the game film.
> 
> I did, before it was taken down. There was an incredulous announcer, who counted 64 consecutive completed passes with zero pressure until they kicked it to the other team. This wasn't a case of not high pressing and playing in a defensive shell. Soccer wasn't even played. You could tell some of the girls were embarrassed and were not happy with what was going on. The coaches were silent. No adjustment was made at halftime. It was an embarrassing spectacle. The fact that LA Galaxy hasn't released a statement on this shows that they see nothing wrong. I'll tell you what, if I were a parent on that team I would have taken the next flight home. Even more disgusting is the contention that somehow this was a spontaneous event with no coach involvement, pushing the blame on the players.
> 
> ...


I get it - I don't need to see the video, nor does E.   While both of us often do not agree we have both been around this over a decade (or two).  It does not matter.  Coaches may choose to not win a game.  Speaking for me, not E, I would not want my kid on any team where a coach would not do that to win the trophy (within the laws) .  I don't care if they sit on the ball, fall down, or kick it 60 yards out of play to use time.  I want them to learn the referee, learn the rules of the tournament and win it.  It is nice they play good soccer, but if the rules make for bad soccer blame the tournament authorities, not the coaches.


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## Zoro (Aug 1, 2016)

espola said:


> You don't see a difference between both teams colluding to improve their position, and two teams playing a meaningless game?


I see a difference.  Is colluding allowed?  I don't know.  It is specifically not allowed in cycling.  The LOTG are silent on it.    Does not bother me if it is not against the rules/laws.  But it is clearly different.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

espola said:


> The result of the game was immaterial - win, lose, or draw the final game was going to be Blues vs NASA, so why would they throw the game?


I thought the outcome of the game mattered, is that no longer true?  Regardless, it's an embarrassment they chose to basically sit down for 90 mins. instead of letting their benches workout and getting another developmental learning experience against great competition, play out.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> I thought the outcome of the game mattered, is that no longer true?  Regardless, it's an embarrassment they chose to basically sit down for 90 mins. instead of letting their benches workout and getting another developmental learning experience against great competition, play out.


The outcome did matter.  That is why they both played to the outcome that mattered to them 0-0.

If it was supposed to be a game I'd expect 120 min.  If these two team met in the finals I'd guess:
A - It would be a game (of up to 120 min)
B - There would have been no agreement.

Because the finals was the only thing that mattered in that tournament.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> The outcome did matter.  That is why they both played to the outcome that mattered to them 0-0.


And that's why people are rightly calling bullshit on this.  Why didn't they approach the tournament staff and say, "since we are not going to actually "play" each other, can we go to lunch and just mark our score cards at 0-0?"  That way they could have put the responsibility on the tournament staff to approve their plan and they didn't put the kids in the awkward position of acting a fool for a whole game.  If it was within the "legal boundaries" of the rules, why the act?


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

I've officiated lots of tournaments and while refs should not discuss outcomes of games before they start, how a pool was seeded is a conversation that has come up before.
 While unusual, you can have a pool where the two likely winner are.  Or, where two teams know each other well and both think they should be in the final.  The idea is one wins the pool, the other takes 2nd and they go to the finals.  As in this case, I guess, if one was to win, the other would go home, likely because they didn't win enough earlier.  Requiring that two potential finalist fight it out so one goes home also does not seem fair to me, and unenforceable.  As long as rules are not broken, allowing this makes the whole tournament more interesting.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> ..."since we are not going to actually "play" each other, can we go to lunch and just mark our score cards at 0-0?"  That way they could have put the responsibility on the tournament staff to approve their plan and they didn't put the kids in the awkward position of acting a fool for a whole game.  If it was within the "legal boundaries" of the rules, why the act?


Because of fairness to the opponents they will meet later.  They are supposed to run around for 60 min or whatever and get tired.  Having a picnic made them more rested.
Typically in a youth tournament especially the semis are the are the hardest fought.   Many  finals have tired players, physically and emotionally.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Because of fairness to the opponents they will meet later.  They are supposed to run around for 60 min or whatever and get tired.  Having a picnic made them more rested.
> Typically in a youth tournament especially the semis are the are the hardest fought.   Many  finals have tired players, physically and emotionally.


Wait, are you saying the game we saw on that video was played as if it was real and the girls got tired?


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

These were U18s girls.  They knew what they were doing.  Many of their future college coaches were there too.  If it was really an issue I don't think they would have done that.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> These were U18s girls.  They knew what they were doing.  Many of their future college coaches were there too.  If it was really an issue I don't think they would have done that.


Are you being intellectually honest here, or just trying to be right?  If it was acceptable to fix the match, there was no reason to "act" out a game.  They should have had the refs just mark the scorecard and the refs could have made the girls run laps to avoid a bullshit circus show.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> Wait, are you saying the game we saw on that video was played as if it was real and the girls got tired?


No, I'm saying there is a difference between a tournament authority allowing a picnic vs putting them on the field.  They could have sat on the field (although as a ref I would not have allowed sitting).  From a tournament standpoint the prelim games should be played and finished.  Just as a game that is 7-0 needs to be finished.  Games with 7-0, 10-0 are not being hard fought either, if they are guys - their may be a fight.  

The issue here is seeding.  You can't always get it right, but when you put teems that fancy themselves as the rightful finalists in a pool you get this kind of stuff.

So I am not being mis-understood, I don't "like" it but there was no real foul or harm here.  Pool #3 was the looser as had the top 2 had a winner #3 would have gone on.  But #3 should have dealt with that the game before.  They are all part of the same tournament with one Cup.  No awards are given for pool games.


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> I thought the outcome of the game mattered, is that no longer true?  Regardless, it's an embarrassment they chose to basically sit down for 90 mins. instead of letting their benches workout and getting another developmental learning experience against great competition, play out.


Two different tournaments -- in the game last week, both teams were better off with a tie than with a loss.  In the 2013 tournament Zoro brought up, the 4-team bracket was settled after the first 2 games (teams were 2-0-0, 2-0-0, 0-2-0, 0-2-0), and the third game between the top 2 teams was meaningless since both were going to be in the final no matter what the result.

My kid's team was in a similar situation once - the two Saturday games set up the same situation where the 2 teams would play Sunday morning in the third game and then Sunday afternoon in  the final.  The two coaches got together with the tournament director and the referees and decided the morning game would be the final.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> Are you being intellectually honest here, or just trying to be right?  If it was acceptable to fix the match, there was no reason to "act" out a game.  They should have had the refs just mark the scorecard and the refs could have made the girls run laps to avoid a bullshit circus show.


My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.   

It is the competition that matters.  So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters.  If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament.  If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour.   The goal is to get the hardware, title, money.  The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

espola said:


> ...
> My kid's team was in a similar situation once - the two Saturday games set up the same situation where the 2 teams would play Sunday morning in the third game and then Sunday afternoon in  the final.  The two coaches got together with the tournament director and the referees and decided the morning game would be the final.


I expect this was before the game, had unanimous agreement and I'd have though the tournament officials would have OK'd it too.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.
> 
> It is the competition that matters.  So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters.  If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament.  If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour.   The goal is to get the hardware, title, money.  The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.


Can you answer my questions?  You keep repeating your justifications.


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I expect this was before the game, had unanimous agreement and I'd have though the tournament officials would have OK'd it too.


Yes, and the referees had to agree also since the rules were slightly different for the final (game length and how to handle a tie).


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> Are you being intellectually honest here, or just trying to be right?


Both.  Honest first.  Right is nice.


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## Truth (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.
> 
> It is the competition that matters.  So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters.  If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament.  If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour.   The goal is to get the hardware, title, money.  The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.


Zoro. Are you really taking the position that the ends justifies the means here and that you are ok with playacting a match in order to further your goals?

I'm sorry, that's not what we should be teaching our kids. 

If you step on to a field, you are there to do your best and compete. End of story. 

If you had watched the video, I very much doubt you would be here trying to justify that spectacle.


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## diegokicker (Aug 2, 2016)

For the record, Duggan has in other occasions approached coaches to "agree" on a match result, to help them get thru or keep their entitlement.  IMO, Duggan should be banned from youth soccer.  This is a first hand fact.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Truth said:


> Zoro. Are you really taking the position that the ends justifies the means here and that you are ok with playacting a match in order to further your goals?
> 
> I'm sorry, that's not what we should be teaching our kids.
> 
> ...


I did not and could not watch the video. 
Direct answer is within the rules and under the authority of what the officials allow - anything to win is fine.  So not things not legal, or acceptable outside of soccer.  When things go wrong - I blame the tournament authority, organization.  Not coaches and players.  If it is that bad the tournament director could have shut it down.

You teach different things at different ages.  At U18 playacting/gamesmanship, strategy is all part of winning as are professional fouls.   I expect teammates playing in the park with no ref to not playact and be as you suggest.  But when you have U18 adults with referees and structure around them players and coaches should play the game to win the tournament.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> When things go wrong - I blame the tournament authority, organization.


Why didn't they approach the tournament authorities for approval and just have the authorities mark zeroes on the scorecard?  Why the soccer acting session?


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## Truth (Aug 2, 2016)

These clubs have the same issues Hillary Clinton does. JUST BE HONEST. 

The match fixing clubs story, in a timeline:

- It was hot, some teams rested starters, we just decided to play less hard than we would normally. 
- The coaches didn't talk, the players just decided to fake playing soccer spontaneously.
[No one buys this story]
- Ok, maybe they were directed by their coaches to put on a soccer play instead of compete, but it didn't change the seedings or the tournament at all. 
[It's pointed out that it could have affected the seeding]
- Ok, maybe it could have affected the seeding, but it's not against the rules to fix matches. 
- Ok, maybe it's against the spirit of the rules, but it's the other club's fault that they weren't trying to score either. 

Total fiasco. JUST TELL THE TRUTH. 

Here's what they should have done, immediately. 

As the DoC, I accept full responsibility for the events in which our team did not compete to the best of their ability. That is not how we train players and goes against the values upon which this club is founded. While factors such as unlikelihood of playoff seeds changing and the incredibly hot weather played a factor in the decision to pretend to play the game, they are no excuse. The coach in question has been disciplined/terminated, and we apologize to the USYS, the soccer community and to our parents. [insert other PR fluff here]


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

The video is working.  I saw some of it.  It is about what I expected.  Poor referee.  Who likely is highly experienced and may be observed for future promotion.  

It would be pretty hard to sanction anyone over that - alone.  Paying an official, colluding before the tournament - maybe - if there is a rule about that.  But as a game inside the tournament I doubt anything will be done.  
That is little different than the 0-10 games each summer where the "sporting" thing to do is kick it around, when 0 coach asked 10 coach to back off.


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## texanincali (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> OK - game fixing.  But only when the game is part of something bigger.  I don't think a team has ever thrown/fixed the WC.  But they may throw a game to get a better opponent to win the World Cup.
> 
> DD specific  2013 G19 National Championship.  DD's team beats defending National Champions in pool.  Winner takes top of pool, 2nd gets 2nd.  Both go on.  I notice several of their top players are sitting.  I think they expected a loss and decided to take it knowing they could come around on the other side.   We meet again in the US National Championship final.  The team we play is different than in pool.  They play different and have different players on the pitch.  DD holds to clean sheet out shot 8:1 in final 90.  We lose in OT.
> My opinion is the coach threw the pool game because they knew they would go through anyway and preferred that 2nd route to the one that we took winning the pool.  I still don't know which team was better.  But they were the undisputed National Champions.  #1 of 10,000 G19s.   Kudos to them.  Well played.  IMO coach threw the pool game.


I am not exactly sure what you are on about.

Resting starters, playing subs, sitting back and defending...all are fine in this scenario - no one would care if that is what happened.  That isn't what happened though - both teams made a farce out of the tournament and disgraced themselves in front of the entire youth soccer world. 

Your posts are incoherent at best and none of them have even come close to describing what actually occurred on the field.


----------



## timbuck (Aug 2, 2016)

Could a referee give cautions for "unsporting behavior"?
Can roaming around the field and not putting in any attacking effort be considered unsportsmanlike?


----------



## tugs (Aug 2, 2016)

They might as well have just sat on the field playing cards with each other.  What a joke.  Made a mockery of the game and horrible example of sportsmanship to the young athletes.  Coaches should be suspended at the very least.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

texanincali said:


> I am not exactly sure what you are on about.
> 
> Resting starters, playing subs, sitting back and defending...all are fine in this scenario - no one would care if that is what happened.  That isn't what happened though - both teams made a farce out of the tournament and disgraced themselves in front of the entire youth soccer world.
> 
> Your posts are incoherent at best and none of them have even come close to describing what actually occurred on the field.



Let me know if you really want to know what happened on the field - I was there all week, so I could tell you.  If you actually watched the first 25-30 minutes of the game, it was actually being played.  Conservatively, and with reserves for Carlsbad, but played.  Some runs downfield were made, some shots taken, and one player even suffered an ankle injury.  You state that it's ok if teams rest players, play subs, sit back, and defend.  That's a key statement there.  Tell me this, what do you think happens in a game if BOTH teams independently decide that's going to be their strategy for a game - to sit back and defend?  Your answer is what happened that day.  The teams played for awhile and then learned that what the other team was doing on the field was exactly the same thing they were doing - sitting back and defending, and only pushing up field occasionally due to their natural soccer instinct, but even then conservatively.  Once they realize that, and both teams are doing nothing but sitting back and defending - which you said was ok - the result is what you saw the game slowly evolve into.  You can tell from the way the game started and slowly morphed into what is shown on the video that none of this was not pre-planned or ever agreed upon by the coaches.  These players have been playing for a decade or more and they simply adjusted with the game as the other team's strategy revealed itself on the field.  Referees continually said that there was nothing illegal about what the game turned into and even said that both teams could legally sit down if they wanted to.  I'm amazed by the number of people that think they know what happened from watching a 99 second video clip that was filmed late in the 2nd half.  And tell me this too...since you say sitting back and defending and playing subs is ok, how would that strategy ever result in a 4 goal victory for Carlsbad, which is the only outcome that would have made any difference whatsoever to the 3rd place team?  Before you answer, remember that Carlsbad was already through to the semi-finals regardless of outcome, and that the temp with heat index was 109 that afternoon.  Even a fully motivated team would be hard pressed to drop 4 goals on a team in those conditions.  People that know the real story and understand soccer and saw how this played out for the full time and in the context of the actual standings get it.  No farce, no disgrace, no collusion, no match fixing.  The soccer world apparently wanted to see some window dressing of a game played in the manner it was played for the first 30 minutes or so.  Same outcome would have occurred, mind you, but those are the optics that those that don't really get it want to have wrapped up with a bow.  Will USYS implement some rule changes that address the optics or appearance of effort level of a game?  Curious to see how that would be implemented and enforced.

The only disgrace here is the manner in which 3rd place in the bracket Syracuse Development Academy carried on about this both during the match and after.  Spewing insults at the CHILDREN playing on both team - both in person and on social media, and even attending these teams' subsequent games to continue to yell at them, and yelling at the other Carlsbad team that wasn't even involved with this game - even at their hotel.  Syracuse parents or representatives had to be physically removed from the awards ceremony after the finals because they were going to disrupt the issuance of Carlsbad's finalist awards.  Syracuse displayed the most abhorrent soccer behavior I've ever seen in soccer.  Deflecting attention from their very poor showing at Nationals to make their players, directors, and families think that had they not been "screwed," they'd have gone through. Yeah, right.  Syracuse also fails to consider the fact that the team they beat in their 3rd game to make the goal differential even within the single game max allowed, was a better team than they were, but with nothing for that team to play for, they played subs and sat back...the same thing these teams are accused of is what Syracuse benefitted from!  Syracuse wins the national championship for the most revolting behavior ever.  It's too bad the widely circulated video clip doesn't pick up the audio of the Syracuse people screaming at minors on the field and on the bench.  We saw one Syracuse parent filming close to the benches and I'm sure they couldn't submit that video due to the profanity they were spewing at kids.   I look forward to reading about USYS sanctions or reprimands against Syracuse.   Let's hear it for SDA - keeping it classy!


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Truth said:


> These clubs have the same issues Hillary Clinton does. JUST BE HONEST.
> 
> The match fixing clubs story, in a timeline:
> 
> ...



For a guy named "Truth," you sure don't seem to bring any.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Could a referee give cautions for "unsporting behavior"?
> Can roaming around the field and not putting in any attacking effort be considered unsportsmanlike?


Sitting on the ground is addressed - yes.  
Otherwise no.  And as the referees there were likely top of the program they did not consider it unsporting.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Wez said:


> Why didn't they approach the tournament authorities for approval and just have the authorities mark zeroes on the scorecard?  Why the soccer acting session?


All tournament authorities were there, and when Syracuse came storming over to scream at the children on both teams, the officials all said there was nothing illegal about what was taking place on the field. They were there, they were asked, they responded.


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> The video is working.  I saw some of it.  It is about what I expected.  Poor referee.  Who likely is highly experienced and may be observed for future promotion.
> 
> It would be pretty hard to sanction anyone over that - alone.  Paying an official, colluding before the tournament - maybe - if there is a rule about that.  But as a game inside the tournament I doubt anything will be done.
> That is little different than the 0-10 games each summer where the "sporting" thing to do is kick it around, when 0 coach asked 10 coach to back off.


The head of referees was there.  In fact, it's why part of that video is so funny - to see the center ref hustling around to get into position.  We all wondered why he was continuing to hustle so much.  The answer is because his boss was there observing and also rendered the opinion that what was taking place on the field was legal.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 2, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> Wow.  That's just awful.   What's funny is watching the ref in that clip.  Hustling to get in position and running around like he's calling an actual game while the players stand and roll the ball at each other (one of them is practically sitting in the background).


That referee should be commended for doing the job he gets paid for.  It seems like he was the only one with some integrity on the field or sideline.  I bet if the players had been forewarned of the fallout from this that they would have put more effort into the game.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

tugs said:


> They might as well have just sat on the field playing cards with each other.  What a joke.  Made a mockery of the game and horrible example of sportsmanship to the young athletes.  Coaches should be suspended at the very least.


The cards are not soccer equipment.  If that happened they would be cautioned for unsporting behavior and bringing the game into disrepute.  If a GK sits DURING play, it is provoking and done in lopsided game - just before the fight starts and is cautioned.  If they all sat down and took a nap, some refs would allow it and some wouldn't.  I would want them on their feet.  I don't know what I could do however if both teams sat.  If one did, just start cautioning, then send-off then game over.  But then there would likely be a winner as the team that first gets to 7 is traditionally the one that forfeits.

In this case from all who posted and the one who was there the two opponents were fine.  Only the spectators were upset (there is a surprise).

@Surfref - Ref hat on.  Both sit down, one side sits down, all stand and don't touch ball.  When do you interject yourself?


----------



## texanincali (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Let me know if you really want to know what happened on the field - I was there all week, so I could tell you.  If you actually watched the first 25-30 minutes of the game, it was actually being played.  Conservatively, and with reserves for Carlsbad, but played.  Some runs downfield were made, some shots taken, and one player even suffered an ankle injury.  You state that it's ok if teams rest players, play subs, sit back, and defend.  That's a key statement there.  Tell me this, what do you think happens in a game if BOTH teams independently decide that's going to be their strategy for a game - to sit back and defend?  Your answer is what happened that day.  The teams played for awhile and then learned that what the other team was doing on the field was exactly the same thing they were doing - sitting back and defending, and only pushing up field occasionally due to their natural soccer instinct, but even then conservatively.  Once they realize that, and both teams are doing nothing but sitting back and defending - which you said was ok - the result is what you saw the game slowly evolve into.  You can tell from the way the game started and slowly morphed into what is shown on the video that none of this was not pre-planned or ever agreed upon by the coaches.  These players have been playing for a decade or more and they simply adjusted with the game as the other team's strategy revealed itself on the field.  Referees continually said that there was nothing illegal about what the game turned into and even said that both teams could legally sit down if they wanted to.  I'm amazed by the number of people that think they know what happened from watching a 99 second video clip that was filmed late in the 2nd half.  And tell me this too...since you say sitting back and defending and playing subs is ok, how would that strategy ever result in a 4 goal victory for Carlsbad, which is the only outcome that would have made any difference whatsoever to the 3rd place team?  Before you answer, remember that Carlsbad was already through to the semi-finals regardless of outcome, and that the temp with heat index was 109 that afternoon.  Even a fully motivated team would be hard pressed to drop 4 goals on a team in those conditions.  People that know the real story and understand soccer and saw how this played out for the full time and in the context of the actual standings get it.  No farce, no disgrace, no collusion, no match fixing.  The soccer world apparently wanted to see some window dressing of a game played in the manner it was played for the first 30 minutes or so.  Same outcome would have occurred, mind you, but those are the optics that those that don't really get it want to have wrapped up with a bow.  Will USYS implement some rule changes that address the optics or appearance of effort level of a game?  Curious to see how that would be implemented and enforced.
> 
> The only disgrace here is the manner in which 3rd place in the bracket Syracuse Development Academy carried on about this both during the match and after.  Spewing insults at the CHILDREN playing on both team - both in person and on social media, and even attending these teams' subsequent games to continue to yell at them, and yelling at the other Carlsbad team that wasn't even involved with this game - even at their hotel.  Syracuse parents or representatives had to be physically removed from the awards ceremony after the finals because they were going to disrupt the issuance of Carlsbad's finalist awards.  Syracuse displayed the most abhorrent soccer behavior I've ever seen in soccer.  Deflecting attention from their very poor showing at Nationals to make their players, directors, and families think that had they not been "screwed," they'd have gone through. Yeah, right.  Syracuse also fails to consider the fact that the team they beat in their 3rd game to make the goal differential even within the single game max allowed, was a better team than they were, but with nothing for that team to play for, they played subs and sat back...the same thing these teams are accused of is what Syracuse benefitted from!  Syracuse wins the national championship for the most revolting behavior ever.  It's too bad the widely circulated video clip doesn't pick up the audio of the Syracuse people screaming at minors on the field and on the bench.  We saw one Syracuse parent filming close to the benches and I'm sure they couldn't submit that video due to the profanity they were spewing at kids.   I look forward to reading about USYS sanctions or reprimands against Syracuse.   Let's hear it for SDA - keeping it classy!


I have no doubt that the behavior of the Syracuse parents was a disgrace.  I heard it first hand from old neighbors that were there.

Also, you are correct in most of what you post above.  My problem with the whole thing was that there had to be collusion amongst the coaches - you clearly see one team pass the ball on purpose to the other team so they could have a turn knocking it around.  Why would you ever give the ball to the other team if you weren't certain that they weren't going to attack and possibly score?  Before the game or during the game - the result was decided by 2 grown men, not 22 17/18 year old women like it should have been.

I couldn't care less about the Syracuse team or the goal differential they had to make up to advance, they were in control of their destiny and handed off control to another team.  But for me, that doesn't make what happened on that field right.  If the game was truly meaningless, then both coaches should have forfeited and let Ambassodor FC roll the dice on the other game.  What happened was shocking and embarrassing.  I would bet a lot of money that if these two teams had to do it over again, it would not have played out the same way.


----------



## Round (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Let me know if you really want to know what happened on the field - I was there all week, so I could tell you.  If you actually watched the first 25-30 minutes of the game, it was actually being played.  Conservatively, and with reserves for Carlsbad, but played.  Some runs downfield were made, some shots taken, and one player even suffered an ankle injury.  You state that it's ok if teams rest players, play subs, sit back, and defend.  That's a key statement there.  Tell me this, what do you think happens in a game if BOTH teams independently decide that's going to be their strategy for a game - to sit back and defend?  Your answer is what happened that day.  The teams played for awhile and then learned that what the other team was doing on the field was exactly the same thing they were doing - sitting back and defending, and only pushing up field occasionally due to their natural soccer instinct, but even then conservatively.  Once they realize that, and both teams are doing nothing but sitting back and defending - which you said was ok - the result is what you saw the game slowly evolve into.  You can tell from the way the game started and slowly morphed into what is shown on the video that none of this was not pre-planned or ever agreed upon by the coaches.  These players have been playing for a decade or more and they simply adjusted with the game as the other team's strategy revealed itself on the field.  Referees continually said that there was nothing illegal about what the game turned into and even said that both teams could legally sit down if they wanted to.  I'm amazed by the number of people that think they know what happened from watching a 99 second video clip that was filmed late in the 2nd half.  And tell me this too...since you say sitting back and defending and playing subs is ok, how would that strategy ever result in a 4 goal victory for Carlsbad, which is the only outcome that would have made any difference whatsoever to the 3rd place team?  Before you answer, remember that Carlsbad was already through to the semi-finals regardless of outcome, and that the temp with heat index was 109 that afternoon.  Even a fully motivated team would be hard pressed to drop 4 goals on a team in those conditions.  People that know the real story and understand soccer and saw how this played out for the full time and in the context of the actual standings get it.  No farce, no disgrace, no collusion, no match fixing.  The soccer world apparently wanted to see some window dressing of a game played in the manner it was played for the first 30 minutes or so.  Same outcome would have occurred, mind you, but those are the optics that those that don't really get it want to have wrapped up with a bow.  Will USYS implement some rule changes that address the optics or appearance of effort level of a game?  Curious to see how that would be implemented and enforced.
> 
> The only disgrace here is the manner in which 3rd place in the bracket Syracuse Development Academy carried on about this both during the match and after.  Spewing insults at the CHILDREN playing on both team - both in person and on social media, and even attending these teams' subsequent games to continue to yell at them, and yelling at the other Carlsbad team that wasn't even involved with this game - even at their hotel.  Syracuse parents or representatives had to be physically removed from the awards ceremony after the finals because they were going to disrupt the issuance of Carlsbad's finalist awards.  Syracuse displayed the most abhorrent soccer behavior I've ever seen in soccer.  Deflecting attention from their very poor showing at Nationals to make their players, directors, and families think that had they not been "screwed," they'd have gone through. Yeah, right.  Syracuse also fails to consider the fact that the team they beat in their 3rd game to make the goal differential even within the single game max allowed, was a better team than they were, but with nothing for that team to play for, they played subs and sat back...the same thing these teams are accused of is what Syracuse benefitted from!  Syracuse wins the national championship for the most revolting behavior ever.  It's too bad the widely circulated video clip doesn't pick up the audio of the Syracuse people screaming at minors on the field and on the bench.  We saw one Syracuse parent filming close to the benches and I'm sure they couldn't submit that video due to the profanity they were spewing at kids.   I look forward to reading about USYS sanctions or reprimands against Syracuse.   Let's hear it for SDA - keeping it classy!


I'm sure the parents of the "subs" are just happy their kids get to be close to you and your kid.  I thought Carlsbad was changing, I guess not.  I was hoping, same parents, same club.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

texanincali said:


> I have no doubt that the behavior of the Syracuse parents was a disgrace.  I heard it first hand from old neighbors that were there.
> 
> Also, you are correct in most of what you post above.  My problem with the whole thing was that there had to be collusion amongst the coaches - you clearly see one team pass the ball on purpose to the other team so they could have a turn knocking it around.  Why would you ever give the ball to the other team if you weren't certain that they weren't going to attack and possibly score?  Before the game or during the game - the result was decided by 2 grown men, not 22 17/18 year old women like it should have been.
> 
> I couldn't care less about the Syracuse team or the goal differential they had to make up to advance, they were in control of their destiny and handed off control to another team.  But for me, that doesn't make what happened on that field right.  If the game was truly meaningless, then both coaches should have forfeited and let Ambassodor FC roll the dice on the other game.  What happened was shocking and embarrassing.  I would be a lot of money that if these two teams had to do it over again, it would not have played out the same way.


There was absolutely no collusion.  This game turned into this on its own volition.  Realize that this went against every natural soccer fiber in these players' bodies to be a part of a game that turned into this, but at the same time, neither team had a need or desire to change the direction the game went as it turned into what it became.  There was no agreement that they would pass it around the back for awhile and then sent it up to the other team, but think of how awkward it surely felt for one team to be the only one doing it?  Especially when Syracuse was over there swearing at them.  So there was only so long each team wanted to be on center stage holding the ball in the back before they tired of it and they sent it away to see if the other team would do the same.  That was no sign of collusion, it was simply realization that both teams had the same strategy but didn't want to be the only one implementing it.  To believe this was pre-orchestrated is absurd.  The game started normally, so are you suggesting the collusion occurred during the game?  With officials all over the field and sidelines and behind the sidelines?  And then how would that instruction be communicated to players on both teams?  And then the implementation of it would have to be considered masterful, if you believe that...to direct the game to change as gradually as it did...c'mon, get real.  Had the teams come right out of the gate like that, or after halftime like that, or if the change happened immediately...then a suspicion of collusion might have more merit.  If you were there, you would realize that.

It went like this, as I said, the game was already very conservative at the outset, as would be expected.  There were plenty of balls held in the backfield for longer than you would normally expect, but eventually a player would run or pass out of the backfield, or an offensive player would challenge the ball.  As the game progressed, each time the ball went into the backfield, the amount of time that passed before a player contested it or a defender chose to run or pass out of the backfield was increased.  It happened gradually and subtlety.  If you saw it occur, you would be satisfied that it wasn't pre-planned, colluded, or fixed.  It truly just gradually morphed into that.

A few things you said..."Syracuse was in control of their own destiny."  No, they weren't.  As I said before, at the start of both games (which started at the same time) Syracuse needed to have a Carlsbad win and a total of 7 goal differential made up between the two final games.  They made up 3 of those goals on their own in beating a team 3-1 that had nothing to play for. That means they left Carlsbad with 4 goals they'd have to make up for them. That IS NOT in control of their own destiny.

You asked why not forfeit...this is not the way the game was expected to play out, so asking for a forfeit at the outset was not ever considered, and a forfeit in one game could potentially mean forfeiting all future games in the tournament.  Carlsbad expected Ambassadors to play some and to give our reserves a chance to actually play a game.  While they did for awhile, that play gradually eroded.

Would this game be played the same way again today?  If they knew ahead of time that the facts would not be reported accurately, if they knew the headlines would allege match fixing, if they knew Syracuse would swear at the kids for the next 3 days...then, no, they'd have probably continued to play the game as the first 30 minutes were played. Pretty sure Syracuse would still be the douchebags about it, but the window dressing would be what the rest of the Monday morning quarterbacks would want to see.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Round said:


> I'm sure the parents of the "subs" are just happy their kids get to be close to you and your kid.  I thought Carlsbad was changing, I guess not.  I was hoping, same parents, same club.


Don't be a clown.  My daughter WAS a sub in this tournament - she's a 14-year old GK that was brought along with this U-18 team as a reserve, and we would have loved to see her get more action in a game that was played more outright.  This isn't her normal team, so our objectivity here is based on what we actually saw.  Thankfully she did get some real gametime when we drubbed the douchebags from Syracuse 6-nil.  Sorry, was the use of the word "sub" derogatory?  Wasn't my intent.  Should I have said "reserve?"  Should I have said "those who don't get as much playing time?"  Really, I'm asking.  I don't know what's the appropriate phrase to use.


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## iliv (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro, why are you such an apologist for Michael Duggan?   The events on the field were clearly disruptive to the spirit kids sporting.  Just because it's not illegal, does not make it ethical (and isn't that what we want our kids to take away from the whole experience)? Your win at all cost attitude is what's wrong with youth soccer, and that's what the academy is trying to get away from.  

He is a shady character.   The whole merger with Lightning/Wave to Carlsbad United was sold to the parents as a good move for our "community based club", as detailed in our mission statement.   The next year "LA Galaxy San Diego" was shoved down our community based club's throat.  We don't live in LA and we don't live in San Diego.  Our fields are impacted; but I do enjoy watching the directors arrive to practice in their expensive cars.  Nonprofit 501c3 for sure, as long as directors salaries are hidden within contracts and not reportable (as 501c3 should be).   Now us locals have no choice but to do business with the proverbial devil.   Makes me embarrassed my daughter wears that jersey, but can't commute and she loves soccer.  What to do?


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## texanincali (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> A few things you said..."Syracuse was in control of their own destiny."


They were in control of their destiny before taking a pounding from Carlsbad, it was very clearly written.

Just to be clear, your stance is that a game that started normal, albeit conservatively, and turned in to patty cakes without instruction from coaches.  What made the attackers stop trying for the ball?  Did they just decide this on their own?

Also, the reason you give for passing the ball to the other team (didn't want to be yelled at) is laughable at best.

Last thing, just so we have it on record.  If no one mis-reported the facts, and no one was there to scream at them like the Syracuse folks did...you would advocate playing the same way?


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

texanincali said:


> They were in control of their destiny before taking a pounding from Carlsbad, it was very clearly written.
> 
> Just to be clear, your stance is that a game that started normal, albeit conservatively, and turned in to patty cakes without instruction from coaches.  What made the attackers stop trying for the ball?  Did they just decide this on their own?
> 
> ...


You're just not going to get it since you weren't there and didn't see it happen.  You do an admirable job of putting statements into someone else's mouth, however, so kudos for that.  Wishing you well in your soccer life.  Cheers.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

iliv said:


> Zoro, why are you such an apologist for Michael Duggan?   The events on the field were clearly disruptive to the spirit kids sporting.  Just because it's not illegal, does not make it ethical (and isn't that what we want our kids to take away from the whole experience)? Your win at all cost attitude is what's wrong with youth soccer, and that's what the academy is trying to get away from.
> 
> He is a shady character.   The whole merger with Lightning/Wave to Carlsbad United was sold to the parents as a good move for our "community based club", as detailed in our mission statement.   The next year "LA Galaxy San Diego" was shoved down our community based club's throat.  We don't live in LA and we don't live in San Diego.  Our fields are impacted; but I do enjoy watching the directors arrive to practice in their expensive cars.  Nonprofit 501c3 for sure, as long as directors salaries are hidden within contracts and not reportable (as 501c3 should be).   Now us locals have no choice but to do business with the proverbial devil.   Makes me embarrassed my daughter wears that jersey, but can't commute and she loves soccer.  What to do?


I don't even know who he is.  I've officiated and seen combined over 1,000 games I see stuff like this and find it interesting.  And I was surprised by the accusations of a sports media reporter.  There may have been an act that was wrong, I just didn't see evidence for it.  Certainly not from a laws of the game perspective.

I'm pretty sure every team playing olders at Nationals has some forward that knows how to sell a call, and get some refs to make a call that they would not otherwise have made.  And everyone on that team benefits.  So those against it, just should not play at that level.  For me - I see soccer as a competition.  Competitors are supposed to win.  If they can win not breaking rules, not hurting someone physically or mentally - they should be creative.   I do not see the value in bringing arguments into the game that make touching a ball with a hand, or not kicking it somehow a reflection of character.    Kids play by the laws - the referee decides.  And the rules - the tournament people decide.  And win - not at all costs.  At the cost of training more, getting on a better team and being smart about it.  If you live in SoCal you have choices - and it may cost time and money where you drive.  

Likely for another thread... I don't think my win attitude is an issue at all.  It is in fact the point of sport.  Once you win you get to keep playing someone better until you loose.  That is how it goes.  
What I think is wrong with soccer is not a win at all cost attitude.  I think it is sports in college and the drive to chase a sport for money/college.  I'm an advocate of taking advantage of it because it is there, but that drives this huge club industry/lottery.


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> For a guy named "Truth," you sure don't seem to bring any.


She still hasn't posted the instances she claimed where I told a lie about Surf.


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## Round (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Don't be a clown.  My daughter WAS a sub in this tournament - she's a 14-year old GK that was brought along with this U-18 team as a reserve, and we would have loved to see her get more action in a game that was played more outright.  This isn't her normal team, so our objectivity here is based on what we actually saw.  Thankfully she did get some real gametime when we drubbed the douchebags from Syracuse 6-nil.  Sorry, was the use of the word "sub" derogatory?  Wasn't my intent.  Should I have said "reserve?"  Should I have said "those who don't get as much playing time?"  Really, I'm asking.  I don't know what's the appropriate phrase to use.


Was it derogatory? What was your point, seems to me that you were referring to them in a negative way?  When you were enjoying chicken wings with their parents at the team dinner were you referring to their kids as the subs?  Your kid may be, probably will be a sub on her team sooner or later.   Maybe even less than a sub, asked to stay home so the club can add to the roster.  It won't necessarily be because she is not as good as the others, its just the way it happens when you support these institutions and start using their words and attitudes.  Karma sucks.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Round said:


> Was it derogatory? What was your point, seems to me that you were referring to them in a negative way?  When you were enjoying chicken wings with their parents at the team dinner were you referring to their kids as the subs?  Your kid may be, probably will be a sub on her team sooner or later.   Maybe even less than a sub, asked to stay home so the club can add to the roster.  It won't necessarily be because she is not as good as the others, its just the way it happens when you support these institutions and start using their words and attitudes.  Karma sucks.


Very well, in the future I will say that some players that hadn't started thus far in the tournament got to see significant playing time.  Appreciate the correction.  Soccer wasn't my sport growing up.  This also isn't our regular team, so I have no idea who was normally a "starter" and who wasn't.  No intent to offend anyone on the team or in the soccer world.


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> There was absolutely no collusion.  This game turned into this on its own volition.  Realize that this went against every natural soccer fiber in these players' bodies to be a part of a game that turned into this, but at the same time, neither team had a need or desire to change the direction the game went as it turned into what it became.  There was no agreement that they would pass it around the back for awhile and then sent it up to the other team, but think of how awkward it surely felt for one team to be the only one doing it?  Especially when Syracuse was over there swearing at them.  So there was only so long each team wanted to be on center stage holding the ball in the back before they tired of it and they sent it away to see if the other team would do the same.  That was no sign of collusion, it was simply realization that both teams had the same strategy but didn't want to be the only one implementing it.  To believe this was pre-orchestrated is absurd.  The game started normally, so are you suggesting the collusion occurred during the game?  With officials all over the field and sidelines and behind the sidelines?  And then how would that instruction be communicated to players on both teams?  And then the implementation of it would have to be considered masterful, if you believe that...to direct the game to change as gradually as it did...c'mon, get real.  Had the teams come right out of the gate like that, or after halftime like that, or if the change happened immediately...then a suspicion of collusion might have more merit.  If you were there, you would realize that.
> 
> It went like this, as I said, the game was already very conservative at the outset, as would be expected.  There were plenty of balls held in the backfield for longer than you would normally expect, but eventually a player would run or pass out of the backfield, or an offensive player would challenge the ball.  As the game progressed, each time the ball went into the backfield, the amount of time that passed before a player contested it or a defender chose to run or pass out of the backfield was increased.  It happened gradually and subtlety.  If you saw it occur, you would be satisfied that it wasn't pre-planned, colluded, or fixed.  It truly just gradually morphed into that.
> 
> ...


Were you pleased with the way your player performed in the game?  That to me would be the measuring stick.  And if the answer is yes then no need to defend anything.


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## Truth (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> You're just not going to get it since you weren't there and didn't see it happen.  You do an admirable job of putting statements into someone else's mouth, however, so kudos for that.  Wishing you well in your soccer life.  Cheers.


I watched the whole game. It was streamed live, remember? The game started by reflex as a normal game, maybe 5 minutes. Then it looked like something was said, because like a light switch it turned off. Forwards stopped running. Midfielders stood in place. Defenders passed back and forth with little enthusiasm. The announcer was caught off guard, I think he was wondering if someone dropped or there was some other distraction. He went from surprised, to amused, to indignant, to angry, to exasperated. 

It would easy for one of us to be proven wrong, GK Dad. All they had to do was not try and hide the evidence and take the video down. If it was a contested match like you said for 1/2 the game and then a spontaneous slowdown, there wouldn't be much of a story and no need to conceal the video. 

You and I both know what happened. Kudos to you for trying to have your club and your coach's back, but a line was crossed here and the response from the guilty parties has been excuses, blaming others, shifting stories, and dismissal. It was a poor decision to fix the match, and an even poorer decision to cover up the evidence and make excuses.


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## Wez (Aug 2, 2016)

If it's true the Tournament authorities gave their approval, all you can really complain about is how this type of thing should be handled in the future.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Blame USYS for taking the video down.  It was their video and they had control over it.  Since they said the gameplay was OK while it was happening and told the coaches as much, maybe someone at USYS got in a pickle over it.  Or are you adjoining USYS as a participant in your theory of collusion?


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

There is no money given or bet on this game.  Coaches sharing and agreeing to tactics is "normal".  
So I am curious if it is as bad as the worst description here - if both coaches talked to each other about their tactics before the game and then both teams executed them - all within the laws of the game, what should the outcome be?  
Other than this shaming that is going on, is a sanction in order - and then, if so - for what?


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Blame USYS for taking the video down.  It was their video and they had control over it.  Since they said the gameplay was OK while it was happening and told the coaches as much, maybe someone at USYS got in a pickle over it.  Or are you adjoining USYS as a participant in your theory of collusion?


From the looks of what has been posted here, perhaps someone complained about the unprofessional behavior by the announcer.


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## Surfref (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> The cards are not soccer equipment.  If that happened they would be cautioned for unsporting behavior and bringing the game into disrepute.  If a GK sits DURING play, it is provoking and done in lopsided game - just before the fight starts and is cautioned.  If they all sat down and took a nap, some refs would allow it and some wouldn't.  I would want them on their feet.  I don't know what I could do however if both teams sat.  If one did, just start cautioning, then send-off then game over.  But then there would likely be a winner as the team that first gets to 7 is traditionally the one that forfeits.
> 
> In this case from all who posted and the one who was there the two opponents were fine.  Only the spectators were upset (there is a surprise).
> 
> @Surfref - Ref hat on.  Both sit down, one side sits down, all stand and don't touch ball.  When do you interject yourself?


As soon as they sat down I would assume there was some type of heat related injury and call the coach and trainer on to evaluate the players for heat exhaustion/stroke or some other type of injury.  If no injury, than the game proceeds and I write a report when the game is over documenting what I observed and let the gaming authority decide on the consequences if any.  The LOTG say nothing about players trying to play hard, but the Spirit of the Game and good sportsmanship would be the problem.  Someone would have to touch the ball initially.  If both teams were putting zero effort into the game, I would talk to both coaches at halftime to find out what was going on.  I would also discuss the situation with the Field Marshal and suggest someone of higher authority come and observe the game.

There really is not much you can do as a referee.  I had a game a few years ago, not going to name the club, where both teams from the same club needed at least a tie to move to the Semi-finals of their clubs tournament (they were using cross bracket play for the bracket rounds and ended up meeting in the final) .  They each scored a give-me goal than just proceeded to sub on every stoppage and just pass the ball around until both teams scored another give-me goal within the last 5 minutes.  I expressed my concerns and annotated it on the game report, but nothing was done.


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## Truth (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Blame USYS for taking the video down.  It was their video and they had control over it.  Since they said the gameplay was OK while it was happening and told the coaches as much, maybe someone at USYS got in a pickle over it.  Or are you adjoining USYS as a participant in your theory of collusion?


I have no doubt USYS took the video down once they realized what happened. I also heard that both coaches approached the film crew and told them to stop filming at halftime. The film crew refused.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Truth said:


> I have no doubt USYS took the video down once they realized what happened. I also heard that both coaches approached the film crew and told them to stop filming at halftime. The film crew refused.


There is no truth to that whatsoever.  I was directly behind them.  When the Syracuse douchebags came over to swear at children, the broadcast likely had issues with how to handle that.  Adults screaming and swearing at children doesn't make for great TV.  In fact, the assholes from syracuse were originally filming on their phones from behind the benches.  They surely realized they couldn't submit that video to Top drawer as they would have been heard verbally abusing minors.

It's really a pretty transparent effort on the part of a poor club that performed like crap on the national stage.  Deflect attention from their own shitty performance and try to get one or two teams disqualified in an effort to advance.  I'd say if they spent as much effort and energy on their own game and trainings as they did abusing children and launching a social media campaign to deflect from their own performance, maybe in a few years they can get there on true merit.


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## timbuck (Aug 2, 2016)

It was u18 right?  While still "children", it's not like we're talking about 10 year olds.


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> There is no truth to that whatsoever.  I was directly behind them.  When the Syracuse douchebags came over to swear at children, the broadcast likely had issues with how to handle that.  Adults screaming and swearing at children doesn't make for great TV.  In fact, the assholes from syracuse were originally filming on their phones from behind the benches.  They surely realized they couldn't submit that video to Top drawer as they would have been heard verbally abusing minors.
> 
> It's really a pretty transparent effort on the part of a poor club that performed like crap on the national stage.  Deflect attention from their own shitty performance and try to get one or two teams disqualified in an effort to advance.  I'd say if they spent as much effort and energy on their own game and trainings as they did abusing children and launching a social media campaign to deflect from their own performance, maybe in a few years they can get there on true merit.


You might think that someone who uses "Truth" as her posting name would have a little more respect for truth.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

timbuck said:


> It was u18 right?  While still "children", it's not like we're talking about 10 year olds.


Wow, are you serious?  You're OK with grown men, several of them, verbally assaulting teenage girls?  And not just in this game, in the two games that followed, at their hotel, and with plans to scream obscenities at them during their finalist awards ceremony until USYS caught wind of it and ejected them before they could.  Also, since the Carlsbad U16s were also there and wearing the same uniforms as the 18s, they were subjected to the same treatment by Syracuse.  Is U16 young enough to not be OK?  How about my daughter...she is just 14 and was guesting with the 18s.  Is that young enough to make it revolting?


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## timbuck (Aug 2, 2016)

Not ok with it at all. But when we say "adults swearing at kids" it sounds like they were swearing at elementary school kids. 
Hang around a bunch of 16 year olds.  The language they use would make Too Short blush.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

I'm quite surprised they were not removed if that was the case.  Been a while since I ref'd but that does not merit a warning.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I'm quite surprised they were not removed if that was the case.  Been a while since I ref'd but that does not merit a warning.


They were, eventually, and then in each subsequent game where they were there to cheer against our girls, it became a cat and mouse game for them.   They would try to discreetly spew insults and slurs at our girls until a game or tournament official was notified, and then they were either ejected or the official stood near them and ensured they shut up and only cheered for our opponents.  There are no officials in the hotels, in the parking lots before and after games, nor on social media, and these are the places where their verbal barrages were the worst.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

I know this was nationals.  But if it continues, the game is suspended.  Oh how I'd have loved to hear the ref debrief.

Next step.. Get the police.


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## Round (Aug 2, 2016)

You can find a hint of the source of everything good and bad about girls soccer in this thread if you are looking. 

Some people have real problems and real dreams.  Not us.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Round said:


> You can find a hint of the source of everything good and bad about girls soccer in this thread if you are looking.
> 
> Some people have real problems and real dreams.  Not us.


I think the 700 some odd posts in the Girls Development Academy thread is an even better (and more disturbing) microcosm of the girls competitive youth soccer world.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

Remember - parents post here.  Not kids.  It is not really a reflection of the future at all.


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## espola (Aug 2, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Remember - parents post here.  Not kids.  It is not really a reflection of the future at all.


You are indeed naive if you think no kids read or post here.


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## Zoro (Aug 2, 2016)

espola said:


> You are indeed naive if you think no kids read or post here.


I'll go with I'm naive.


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## Surfref (Aug 3, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Not ok with it at all. But when we say "adults swearing at kids" it sounds like they were swearing at elementary school kids.
> Hang around a bunch of 16 year olds.  The language they use would make Too Short blush.


As a referee I hear what our little 14-18 year old darlings say on the field and they sound worse than a drunken Sailor in an Olongopo bar.  But, it should not matter what the players say on the field.  These were fully grown adults with teenage children of their own, they should know how to act and behave.  Glad to hear USYS banned them from games and events.


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## espola (Aug 3, 2016)

Surfref said:


> As a referee I hear what our little 14-18 year old darlings say on the field and they sound worse than a drunken Sailor in an Olongopo bar.


I am sorry sir, but that is spelled "Olongapo", and I have the t-shirt to prove it.


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## Surfref (Aug 3, 2016)

espola said:


> I am sorry sir, but that is spelled "Olongapo", and I have the t-shirt to prove it.


You are correct.  I guess I was just too drunk while there to remember the spelling.


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> There is no truth to that whatsoever.  I was directly behind them.


This is true. One or both coaches requested the crew to stop filming at halftime, which was refused.


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

More denial and failure to accept responsibility from LA Galaxy staff:

A statement from Carlsbad Director of Coaching Michael Duggan and U18 coach Courtney Drummond.

“Going into Thursday’s match against Ambassadors FC, our approach was to sit in and let the opponent come to us.  Contrary to what has been reported, the result of the game had no impact on whether or not we would advance, so there was no tactical reason for us to go on the offensive and chase the game.  Additionally, it should be noted that the only outcome that would have effected the group standings in any way at that point in time would have been a 5-0 win for our team.

“Playing a low pressure style was in our best interest looking ahead to the semi-final to help preserve our players physically for the next match, having already played two 90 minute games in the extreme heat.  Given that the opponent simply had to get out of the game without losing 5-0, they also clearly took a more conservative tactical approach to ensure their place in the next round.

“We understand that the way this game played out was not typical of the level of play one would expect to see in a competitive environment, however it demonstrates two teams, both taking a conservative approach to the game to protect their advantage and there was no collusion between the teams.  Both teams performed well in their previous matches, and as a result, were both afforded a position where we could advance to the semis without having to take significant risks in the final bracket game.

“Our ultimate goal in coming to this tournament has always been to win a National Championship.  We are no stranger to this tournament having qualified to compete in the National Championships the past four consecutive years, which is a testament to the quality of our players, coaches and organization. It’s unfortunate that the integrity of our team has been called into question.  We are honored to have earned a place in the semi-finals after winning our bracket and we look forward to competing in that game this weekend.”


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

Here's the problem with Duggan's statement. He said they were "*Playing a low pressure style*" when that is not what they did. I guess they are banking on that video never being released, because if it is they will be forced to come up with yet another story. They played a "zero pressure style" that looked very similar to not playing at all. 

Also clearly not true is the statement that "there was no collusion between the teams". Also, if the video is ever released, this will blow up in their faces as well. I've watched tons of games in which there is nothing to play for, and guess what? They actually played. What happened last week was not that.


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## espola (Aug 3, 2016)

Surfref said:


> You are correct.  I guess I was just too drunk while there to remember the spelling.


I remember being the last person through the gate before curfew one night, but I don't remember WHY I was the last person through the gate.


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## espola (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> Here's the problem with Duggan's statement. He said they were "*Playing a low pressure style*" when that is not what they did. I guess they are banking on that video never being released, because if it is they will be forced to come up with yet another story. They played a "zero pressure style" that looked very similar to not playing at all.
> 
> Also clearly not true is the statement that "there was no collusion between the teams". Also, if the video is ever released, this will blow up in their faces as well. I've watched tons of games in which there is nothing to play for, and guess what? They actually played. What happened last week was not that.


This is not a case where there was nothing to play for.  Both teams benefited from a tie.


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## LadiesMan217 (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> Here's the problem with Duggan's statement. He said they were "*Playing a low pressure style*" when that is not what they did. I guess they are banking on that video never being released, because if it is they will be forced to come up with yet another story. They played a "zero pressure style" that looked very similar to not playing at all.
> 
> Also clearly not true is the statement that "there was no collusion between the teams". Also, if the video is ever released, this will blow up in their faces as well. I've watched tons of games in which there is nothing to play for, and guess what? They actually played. What happened last week was not that.


Were there shots on goal at the beginning of the game?


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Were there shots on goal at the beginning of the game?


Yes


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## timbuck (Aug 3, 2016)

No horse in this race and I can see both sides of the coin here.
1.  Playing like this is lame.
2.  Coach is playing to win a championship.  Do what you think is best.

Does anyone know how these teams typically distribute playing time?  Are there players who don't get many minutes?  Why not trot them out there to let them show off to some college scouts that might be in attendance.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> This is true. One or both coaches requested the crew to stop filming at halftime, which was refused.


You are forcing a false narrative as being true.  No coach or team official from either team approached the film crew at halftime.  That is just absolutely not true. You don't think that me and the other parents there were carefully taking in all of the details and interactions that were taking place at this game once it became abnormal?  You were not there, I was.  I saw and heard what occurred and was within 10 feet of the film crew the whole time.  What you insist happened, did not.  If it had, I would have seen it and heard it.  The only team officials that approached the film crew were those assholes from Syracuse demanding that they send the video to USYS, to which the film crew responded, "We are hired by USYS.  It's their film."

Besides, what would they care?  They weren't hiding anything.  USYS officials - many of them - were at the game watching it.  In another post you keep saying if the film comes out it's going to blow up in their face.  Get real.  Just because the video isn't available on line, it still exists and is owned by USYS.  You don't think that was reviewed before they rendered their finding that there was no evidence of collusion or match fixing?

Again, "truth" you should really stop telling lies or at least consider a name change.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

I showed my wife the video.  She said - "Wow - that's bad".  I asked what she would think about the character of her daughter if she did that.  I got a weird look.  "I hope she wouldn't play like that." she said.  Then added, it was about winning Nationals anyway.  So at least I married into like thought.


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## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

timbuck said:


> ...Why not trot them out there to let them show off to some college scouts that might be in attendance.


I expect they are committed.
I expect some of their coaches were there.

I expect coaches understand winning THE Tournament, as that is how coaches get paid some bonuses...


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> More denial and failure to accept responsibility from LA Galaxy staff:
> 
> A statement from Carlsbad Director of Coaching Michael Duggan and U18 coach Courtney Drummond.
> 
> ...


The only inaccuracy in the statement is that the only outcome that would have changed anything would be a 5 goal win for Carlsbad.  In fact a 4 goal win by Carlsbad would have.  It doesn't change the fact that a 4 goal win for Carlsbad was never in the cards as the game had no impact to them whatsoever.  If Ambassadors felt the need to improve their position and seeding, it was up to them to bring the game to Carlsbad.  They didn't and showed they were also satisfied with their seeding.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> This is true. One or both coaches requested the crew to stop filming at halftime, which was refused.


Careful, your lies are showing.  Previously you said, "I also heard that both coaches approached the film crew and told them to stop filming at halftime..."  So, in your earlier post you admit that you simply "heard" this, and that it was "both coaches."  Now your story is changing as you assert it as first hand actual knowledge when all it really is is heresay that I have first hand knowledge to refute.  And your story is so unsure that it went from "both coaches" to "one or both coaches."  You, sir, are not even certain of the elements of the inaccurate story you've been told by someone.

I'm trying to figure out your obvious animosity towards Carlsbad.  My guess is that you're a jilted ECNL mouthpiece that's had the pleasure of beating the drum of "best clubs in the country" for so long until the DA puts ECNL in the position of 2nd fiddle.  So you're potentially with am ECNL club that didn't get DA, so you can't even migrate to support DA.  Let it go, man.  There are talented teams and players in all leagues and associations.  And college coaches will find these kids no matter where they are.  Your disdain for Carlsbad is duly noted, but try to stay true to your moniker and stick to that which is true, m'kay?


----------



## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Besides, what would they care?  They weren't hiding anything.  USYS officials - many of them - were at the game watching it.  In another post you keep saying if the film comes out it's going to blow up in their face.  Get real.  Just because the video isn't available on line, it still exists and is owned by USYS.  You don't think that was reviewed before they rendered their finding that there was no evidence of collusion or match fixing?
> 
> Again, "truth" you should really stop telling lies or at least consider a name change.


If there is nothing to hide and everything is above board, why have they hidden the video? Why have they denied every media request to use all or a portion of the video? Why did they hide the livestream link during the 2nd half?

You better hope they never release that video, because it will make you look foolish with everything you've said in this thread. 

ESPN picked up the story, for Pete's sake, and you are still in here maintaining that your club did nothing wrong? Shameful.


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> If there is nothing to hide and everything is above board, why have they hidden the video? Why have they denied every media request to use all or a portion of the video? Why did they hide the livestream link during the 2nd half?
> 
> You better hope they never release that video, because it will make you look foolish with everything you've said in this thread.
> 
> ESPN picked up the story, for Pete's sake, and you are still in here maintaining that your club did nothing wrong? Shameful.


You are an absolute joke.  If you have questions about the video, ask USYS and blame them.  They control it, not either of the teams.  Further, if you have problems about the manner in which the game was played, also check in with USYS because they said nothing was wrong with it as it happened.  The Carlsbad coach specifically asked and asked if anything should be done differently...as it was happening.  The response from USYS reps at the field was that it was ok.


----------



## outside! (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> ESPN picked up the story, for Pete's sake, and you are still in here maintaining that your club did nothing wrong? Shameful.


Since when did ESPN become the paragon of virtue? Have you ever watched a TV news segment about a subject that you are very knowledgeable about? Were there mistakes in the coverage (there almost always are)? TV news is great at drawing attention to a subject, but they are not very good at reporting ALL of the facts. ESPN picked up the story because all TV news organizations are constantly struggling to fill air time.


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## LadiesMan217 (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> The only inaccuracy in the statement is that the only outcome that would have changed anything would be a 5 goal win for Carlsbad.  In fact a 4 goal win by Carlsbad would have.  It doesn't change the fact that a 4 goal win for Carlsbad was never in the cards as the game had no impact to them whatsoever.  If Ambassadors felt the need to improve their position and seeding, it was up to them to bring the game to Carlsbad.  They didn't and showed they were also satisfied with their seeding.





Truth said:


> If there is nothing to hide and everything is above board, why have they hidden the video? Why have they denied every media request to use all or a portion of the video? Why did they hide the livestream link during the 2nd half?
> 
> You better hope they never release that video, because it will make you look foolish with everything you've said in this thread.
> 
> ESPN picked up the story, for Pete's sake, and you are still in here maintaining that your club did nothing wrong? Shameful.


ESPN misunderstood what happened and were told a different story (most likely based on the douche parents on the Syracuse team). They were told both teams had to win or tie, etc. This is factual information.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Yep, pretty much every story about aviation accidents or incidents is comically wrong and sensationalized.  As a pilot, it's pretty amusing.  This story is nothing but an enticing soundbyte accompanied with a compelling video and tagged with a scandalous headline to draw a response.  For that, they succeeded.  In telling the truth, the circumstances, the scenario...or even an accurate headline - epic fail.  Even the original top drawer article has been edited and amended so many times that the story is hardly as compelling anymore, and even the story that remains isn't 100% accurate.  But the damage is done.  People that already read the article aren't going to read the corrections or updates, and espn, SI, Fox, and everyone else that simply used the original top drawer story aren't updating their story with the revised facts.  It's hack journalism to draw a reaction.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

LadiesMan217 said:


> ESPN misunderstood what happened and were told a different story (most likely based on the douche parents on the Syracuse team). They were told both teams had to win or tie, etc. This is factual information.


You are correct.  The entire source of the story is from the douchebags from Syracuse.  They filmed it and submitted it to TopDrawer as they threatened to do as part of their obscenity-laced sideline tirade.  They submitted the story with the angle they wanted to have told, and shame on TopDrawer for not fact checking first and reporting it correctly before the damage was done.  But you can't put toothpaste back in the tube once it's out.  Syracuse was surely feeling to pressure from performing so poorly at Nationals, so what a brilliant scapegoat and distraction for them....they'd have made it through if only two teams hadn't conspired!  They're a f-ing disgrace of a club.


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## tugs (Aug 3, 2016)

I saw the video and that definitely wasn't "low pressure".  You can put lipstick on a pig but that's still a pork product.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

tugs said:


> I saw the video and that definitely wasn't "low pressure".  You can put lipstick on a pig but that's still a pork product.


That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that what occurred is allowed, and given the standings and scenarios isn't even unethical because it didn't change any outcome.  There is no law of the game that dictates a level of effort - or appearance of effort.  And when asked, tournament and USYS officials and refs all said it was OK.  The Carlsbad coach, at least, was willing to change the game play if the officials requested when asked.  I just hope everyone realizes that this whole thing is about optics and appearances and in the context of the false narrative that was originally reported and that came from a club that performed poorly, it made it into a story that, in reality, was never worthy of a second thought.


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> You are an absolute joke.  If you have questions about the video, ask USYS and blame them.  They control it, not either of the teams.  Further, if you have problems about the manner in which the game was played, also check in with USYS because they said nothing was wrong with it as it happened.  The Carlsbad coach specifically asked and asked if anything should be done differently...as it was happening.  The response from USYS reps at the field was that it was ok.


The truth is right there for everyone to see, if USYS would stop hiding the evidence. 

The USYS was not ok with what happened, and is embarrassed by it. Evidence - they hid the video, and fined/suspended the teams/coaches involved.


----------



## outside! (Aug 3, 2016)

One of the saddest parts of this whole non-story and ensuing discussion is that it overshadowed the fact that the Carlsbad U16 team won the National Championships. They also won the Fair Play award for their age group.


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## LadiesMan217 (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> I just hope everyone realizes that this whole thing is about optics and appearances and in the context of the false narrative that was originally reported and that came from a club that performed poorly, it made it into a story that, in reality, was never worthy of a second thought.


That's the world these days. Hawking is correct that social media and news is going to aid in our extinction.


----------



## LadiesMan217 (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> The truth is right there for everyone to see, if USYS would stop hiding the evidence.
> 
> The USYS was not ok with what happened, and is embarrassed by it. Evidence - they hid the video, and fined/suspended the teams/coaches involved.


Dude - we saw the 'evidence' - it is still all over the internet other than the part where they were 'playing'. Just move on with your life. Carlsbad won the championship. Life will move on.


----------



## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that what occurred is allowed, and given the standings and scenarios isn't even unethical because it didn't change any outcome.  There is no law of the game that dictates a level of effort - or appearance of effort.  And when asked, tournament and USYS officials and refs all said it was OK.  The Carlsbad coach, at least, was willing to change the game play if the officials requested when asked.  I just hope everyone realizes that this whole thing is about optics and appearances and in the context of the false narrative that was originally reported and that came from a club that performed poorly, it made it into a story that, in reality, was never worthy of a second thought.


The worst part about this whole spectacle is perfectly summed up in your response. Fair play means nothing. Sportsmanship means nothing. Winning is everything. 

Bottom line is everyone should have owned up to it, said it was a bad idea, and apologized. You are just making your club look worse and worse.


----------



## Wez (Aug 3, 2016)

If the tournament organizers and authorities allowed this to happen, why is this still being discussed?  Take it up with them to change the rules going forward...


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## outside! (Aug 3, 2016)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Dude - we saw the 'evidence' - it is still all over the internet other than the part where they were 'playing'. Just move on with your life. Carlsbad won the championship. Life will move on.


Carlsbad U18 was a finalist. Carlsbad U16 won the championship. You are correct about life moving on.


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## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> The truth is right there for everyone to see, if USYS would stop hiding the evidence.
> 
> The USYS was not ok with what happened, and is embarrassed by it. Evidence - they hid the video, and fined/suspended the teams/coaches involved.


What would you do?
What would be your justification for doing it?


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> The truth is right there for everyone to see, if USYS would stop hiding the evidence.
> 
> The USYS was not ok with what happened, and is embarrassed by it. Evidence - they hid the video, and fined/suspended the teams/coaches involved.


The USYS reps at the field were OK with it and told the coaches they didn't need to change the manner in which the game was being played.  If you have an issue with that, funnel your angst at the USYS, not the Carlsbad team that did nothing wrong and rightfully earned their place in the semi finals while denying nobody anything.  

Yes, the story that came out afterwards was embarrassing to the rest of the USYS board that was not present at the game, so they responded to the media attention as they did.  Their finding of no collusion is the key.  Their final statement that they will look into rule changes to prevent this from happening will be interesting to see and even more interesting to see how it's enforced and when.  A "perceived effort" rule will present all kinds of challenges, don't you think?

Regardless of appearances, Carlsbad did nothing wrong here and rightfully moved on to the semi finals.


----------



## LadiesMan217 (Aug 3, 2016)

outside! said:


> Carlsbad U18 was a finalist. Carlsbad U16 won the championship. You are correct about life moving on.


Cool.


----------



## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> The USYS reps at the field were OK with it and told the coaches they didn't need to change the manner in which the game was being played.  If you have an issue with that, funnel your angst at the USYS, not the Carlsbad team that did nothing wrong and rightfully earned their place in the semi finals while denying nobody anything.
> 
> Yes, the story that came out afterwards was embarrassing to the rest of the USYS board that was not present at the game, so they responded to the media attention as they did.  Their finding of no collusion is the key.  Their final statement that they will look into rule changes to prevent this from happening will be interesting to see and even more interesting to see how it's enforced and when.  A "perceived effort" rule will present all kinds of challenges, don't you think?
> 
> Regardless of appearances, Carlsbad did nothing wrong here and rightfully moved on to the semi finals.


You are missing the point. Again. 

Both teams conspired to take an opportunity to advance away from another team by *failing to play the game*. If that isn't match fixing, I don't know what is. 

You think it's fine and no big deal. Great. I disagree, and I would have pulled my kid from the team after the game.


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

Zoro said:


> What would you do?
> What would be your justification for doing it?


I don't understand your question.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> I don't understand your question.


You don't like what happened.  So if you were the person in charge of USAYS what would you do?
Fine, kick coaches out, DQ both teams after the fact?  It is obvious you don't like it.  What should be done?

And justify it on other than the coach is scum.  What would be the grounds you would present to USAYS? 

I hope you believe by now there was not any law violation there.  So your grounds would have to be under other than some law or rule breaking.
What would it be?


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> You are missing the point. Again.
> 
> Both teams conspired to take an opportunity to advance away from another team by *failing to play the game*. If that isn't match fixing, I don't know what is.
> 
> You think it's fine and no big deal. Great. I disagree, and I would have pulled my kid from the team after the game.


Wow, you don't get it.  YOU are missing the point. Conspiracy means they planned it out and agreed to do it together = FALSE.  I have heard what their instructions were before the game and at halftime.

You say an opportunity for another team to advance was taken away = FALSE.  Just because there is still a mathematical chance does not mean it's really a chance.  4 goals.  FOUR!  Carlsbad had to win by FOUR for the other team to go.  

I have nothing more to say to you if you're still hung up on these most fundamental untruths.  Good luck to you and your player in ECNL.  Oh, pretty classy quote from one of your earlier posts:  "People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL?"  You're pretty transparent with that huge ECNL banner.  And you talk about respect when you spew that kind of disrespect?  You'd fit right in with SDA if you move to Syracuse, screaming about disrespecting the game while swearing at kids.


----------



## outside! (Aug 3, 2016)

The worst sideline soccer parent I have ever seen was the parent of a Syracuse goal keeper. We were playing against them in the 2013 National League in NC. He was literally cussing at his daughter from the sideline, saying things like "God Dammit!, get your body behind the ball!" and "What the hell!". She was visibly stressed. It was all I could do to not tell him to STFU and I still wonder if I should have done something. Is it something in the water?


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL?
> ...


I got that too when DD made it to the finals in G19 and held a clean sheet through the full 90.   There was not a G19 ECNL team in the Nation that could come close to beating them, or even making it to the finals. 

The memories.  Skip the beginning ND part as there was nothing there those games except warm up shots.  Nationals starts at 1:01.   Our forward Cody #13 also scored the winning goal for the UCLA College Cup 5 months later.  Cody had never been on an ECNL team.


----------



## iliv (Aug 3, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I don't even know who he is.  I've officiated and seen combined over 1,000 games I see stuff like this and find it interesting.  And I was surprised by the accusations of a sports media reporter.  There may have been an act that was wrong, I just didn't see evidence for it.  Certainly not from a laws of the game perspective.
> 
> I'm pretty sure every team playing olders at Nationals has some forward that knows how to sell a call, and get some refs to make a call that they would not otherwise have made.  And everyone on that team benefits.  So those against it, just should not play at that level.  For me - I see soccer as a competition.  Competitors are supposed to win.  If they can win not breaking rules, not hurting someone physically or mentally - they should be creative.   I do not see the value in bringing arguments into the game that make touching a ball with a hand, or not kicking it somehow a reflection of character.    Kids play by the laws - the referee decides.  And the rules - the tournament people decide.  And win - not at all costs.  At the cost of training more, getting on a better team and being smart about it.  If you live in SoCal you have choices - and it may cost time and money where you drive.
> 
> ...





LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Wow, you don't get it.  YOU are missing the point. Conspiracy means they planned it out and agreed to do it together = FALSE.  I have heard what their instructions were before the game and at halftime.
> 
> You say an opportunity for another team to advance was taken away = FALSE.  Just because there is still a mathematical chance does not mean it's really a chance.  4 goals.  FOUR!  Carlsbad had to win by FOUR for the other team to go.
> 
> I have nothing more to say to you if you're still hung up on these most fundamental untruths.  Good luck to you and your player in ECNL.  Oh, pretty classy quote from one of your earlier posts:  "People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL?"  You're pretty transparent with that huge ECNL banner.  And you talk about respect when you spew that kind of disrespect?  You'd fit right in with SDA if you move to Syracuse, screaming about disrespecting the game while swearing at kids.


You heard the instructions before  the game and at halftime?  I have been to hundreds of games and never heard the coaches instructions.  Were you in the huddle with the girls?   BS, these coaches don't let the parents hear anything;  I know that first hand.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

iliv said:


> You heard the instructions before  the game and at halftime?  I have been to hundreds of games and never heard the coaches instructions.  Were you in the huddle with the girls?   BS, these coaches don't let the parents hear anything;  I know that first hand.


Why did you quote me?


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

iliv said:


> You heard the instructions before  the game and at halftime?  I have been to hundreds of games and never heard the coaches instructions.  Were you in the huddle with the girls?   BS, these coaches don't let the parents hear anything;  I know that first hand.


No, from my daughter.  Who was just a guest here, and very young, so certainly no reason to not tell me the truth.  As a parent also trying to figure out how the game played out that way, I simply asked her.


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## Surfref (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> ......A "perceived effort" rule will present all kinds of challenges, don't you think?......


I sure hope they don't make this something that referees have to enforce.  It would just be another reason for people to yell at the referee.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Surfref said:


> I sure hope they don't make this something that referees have to enforce.  It would just be another reason for people to yell at the referee.


Maybe if they all looked Annoyed...


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## Surfref (Aug 3, 2016)

I was not there so I do not know what really happened.  The sad part about all of this is that now people who have heard this story and know nothing of LAGSD will have a negative view of all LAGSD teams and the club.  There are some really good coaches and nice people at that club and a lot of players that work their tails off.  It is a shame that it not only tarnished the accomplishments of the U18 team, but the U16 team had to put up with the abuse also.


----------



## Surfref (Aug 3, 2016)

outside! said:


> The worst sideline soccer parent I have ever seen was the parent of a Syracuse goal keeper. We were playing against them in the 2013 National League in NC. He was literally cussing at his daughter from the sideline, saying things like "God Dammit!, get your body behind the ball!" and "What the hell!". She was visibly stressed. It was all I could do to not tell him to STFU and I still wonder if I should have done something. Is it something in the water?


He is lucky I was not his referee.  That type of language toward a player would not be tolerated on a field that I was the referee.  I would have a talk with the coach and politely ask the coach to handle the spectator since the coach is responsible for his spectators.  If the coach did not handle it I would remind him that I do not remove spectators but I do remove coaches.  I used this at Albion Cup just a few weeks ago and the coach sent the parent about 100 yards away from the field.  No youth player should be subjected to degrading comments especially by their own parent.


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## CaliKlines (Aug 3, 2016)

Actually, they played as, and it is being reported as Carlsbad Elite, so the SDA people probably won't be able to figure it out. It is a good thing that they are changing to LAG San Diego next season. I wonder how many people will think the name change is a reaction to the situation...even though it was announced months ago.


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## iliv (Aug 3, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Why did you quote me?


Mistake.  Sorry.


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## iliv (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> No, from my daughter.  Who was just a guest here, and very young, so certainly no reason to not tell me the truth.  As a parent also trying to figure out how the game played out that way, I simply asked her.


Gotcha.


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## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Curious where the OP went.  I normally get very involved in threads I start.   But anyway...

I think we need to re-remember this was a top .1% (2/2000 - did I do that right?) team.  This is not about how we teach out kids.  If that is an issue please don't have them watch the pros.  This is not a win at all costs view.  This is a do no extra work view.


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Wow, you don't get it.  YOU are missing the point. Conspiracy means they planned it out and agreed to do it together = FALSE.  I have heard what their instructions were before the game and at halftime.
> 
> You say an opportunity for another team to advance was taken away = FALSE.  Just because there is still a mathematical chance does not mean it's really a chance.  4 goals.  FOUR!  Carlsbad had to win by FOUR for the other team to go.


Without some sort of planning or instruction, kids would NEVER have played this way. I know this team, they are competitive and competent. They would never just *STOP PLAYING* unless instructed. You are again ignoring how bad the actual game film is. This little bit really doesn't do the farce justice: http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/two-youth-teams-apparently-fixed-a-match-at-a-tournament-072916. Were the instructions "go out and kick the ball around for awhile and then kick it to the other team until the game is over"? If not, then the players blatantly disobeyed the coach, who didn't move or say anything the whole game. No one believes that regardless of how many times you repeat it. 

An opportunity was taken away. It's not false. It may have been unlikely, but entirely possible if LA Galaxy SD decided to actually try to play. Has that team never scored 4 goals in a match? Somehow, I think they have. 

People expect these dirty tactics and little respect for the game from a 3rd division pro league but not at the youth level. And to have the clubs deny and deflect when there is damning video is just despicable.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth talking about respect again.  Funny...again, here's one of his super respectful to the game quotes he posted earlier:  "People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL?"  Keep the respect rolling, Truth.  One class act.


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## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> Without some sort of planning or instruction, kids would NEVER have played this way.....


Maybe you skipped over my last post (they are the .1%) or maybe you underestimate the brains of 17/18 year old women. 
They don't need a coach at the game.  If they do - they are not the .1%.

After you asked for clarification on my question and I gave it - did you give me your response on what should be done and how you would justify it to, say USYSA?


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Maybe you skipped over my last post (they are the .1%) or maybe you underestimate the brains of 17/18 year old women.
> They don't need a coach at the game.  If they do - they are not the .1%.


Don't tell him that, because everyone knows they can't be in the .1% if they're not ECNL.


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## Flojo (Aug 3, 2016)

I had an opinion on this, but I'd rather keep my personal views off the map. All in all, this is a crappy situation for everyone involved and indirectly involved, and nothing can really be done now. While the Syracuse team had a chance to put fate in their own hands, it sucks that they weren't able to get through due to suspected collusion. It sucks for Carlsbad and their players because people will use this situation to negatively portray the club as a whole, and their players were unnecessarily brought into the public eye. It sucks for Ambassador for the same reason. It sucks for US Youth Soccer because they have to clean up a mess/their reputation even though this all wasn't directly their fault. It sucks for all of us because we wasted our time arguing over a cause that can't be fixed (unless firing a coach or disqualifying a team after the event already occurred qualifies as "fixing" the situation).

In the end, everyone learns from this, life goes on, and hopefully our kids continue to play "the beautiful game" as it was intended to be played.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> ..., but entirely possible if LA Galaxy SD ...


According to the roster Carlsbad Elite played.


----------



## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Truth talking about respect again.  Funny...again, here's one of his super respectful to the game quotes he posted earlier:  "People still call it a "National Championship" when all the top teams are in ECNL?"  Keep the respect rolling, Truth.  One class act.


Deflect, deny, distract. Keep it going. 

The game film is bad. But what's worse is the club is basically selling out the players. If there was no collusion, then it's the players' fault, and the coach did nothing to correct.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 3, 2016)

Apparently I need a lot less Truth in my life.  Where's that ignore button?  Good bye ignorance!


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Apparently I need a lot less Truth in my life.  Where's that ignore button?  Good bye ignorance!


Click on name, then the ignore option comes up.


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## iliv (Aug 3, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Maybe you skipped over my last post (they are the .1%) or maybe you underestimate the brains of 17/18 year old women.
> They don't need a coach at the game.  If they do - they are not the .1%.
> 
> After you asked for clarification on my question and I gave it - did you give me your response on what should be done and how you would justify it to, say USYSA?


Again, I have been on the sidelines with both Carlsbad (LA, Galaxy, San Diego) coaches, and they coach the crap out of all their games.  So this is the one game they stayed out of?   Really?


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## Truth (Aug 3, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Apparently I need a lot less Truth in my life.  Where's that ignore button?  Good bye ignorance!


Ha. Lame.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 3, 2016)

iliv said:


> Again, I have been on the sidelines with both Carlsbad (LA, Galaxy, San Diego) coaches, and they coach the crap out of all their games.  So this is the one game they stayed out of?   Really?


 What coaches do is not what I posted about.  I posted that national finalist 17 year old girls don't need a coach in the game to figure out what my DD figured out at U12 tournaments.   DD had yelling coaches and silent ones.  Does not matter.   But these finalists 17 year olds can't figure that out?  Really?


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## jrcaesar (Aug 3, 2016)

Truth said:


> An opportunity was taken away. It's not false. It may have been unlikely, but entirely possible if LA Galaxy SD decided to actually try to play.


No way any team does this ... Not in 109° heat index when guaranteed a semifinal spot. That's the truth.


----------



## texanincali (Aug 4, 2016)

I have given a ton of thought to this and I am becoming more and more split on what I think.

Was it against any written rule/law of the game?  That doesn't seem to be the case.  So the Carlsbad/Ambassadors FC defenders can always fall back on this and as much as many of us don't like it, they are correct.

However, what really bothers me is the fact that I have not seen 1 person involved in the match that has come out and said - "Wow, we really didn't think it was a big deal, but in hindsight the match should not have been played in the manner it was.  If we had to do it all over again, we would not do the same thing.  I would like to apologize to our players, parents, club, other clubs involved in the competition for our actions.  While we still contend that no rules were broken, the manner in which the match was played goes against everything we try and teach our youth players."

I could live with this - but no one has even come close to saying this.  Instead both sides are coming out with basically, "Nothing to see here...this happens all the time...USYSA was fine with it."

I think the real story lies somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Truth (Aug 4, 2016)

texanincali said:


> I have given a ton of thought to this and I am becoming more and more split on what I think.
> 
> Was it against any written rule/law of the game?  That doesn't seem to be the case.  So the Carlsbad/Ambassadors FC defenders can always fall back on this and as much as many of us don't like it, they are correct.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Own up to your mistakes.

Instead, it's been a nonstop barrage of blaming Syracuse, denying anything is wrong, then ultimately blaming the players. Poor showing.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

Sitting with my buddy here who is a soccer fan, who, along with me thinks Carlsbad Elite played a smart game.

As were these folks: http://www.snopes.com/sports/soccer/barbados.asp


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## dfbmike (Aug 4, 2016)

There certainly is some strategy and game planning involved, but calling it game fixing is quite the stretch.  both teams just needed a tie, they earned the right to be in that position. 
happens at all levels.  remember the portugal/croatia match in the recent euros?  yeah probably not, because portugal ended up winning it all and nobody cares how they did it.
that being said it would be hard to believe that the players did this on their own and the game "just fell that way", coaches are always in charge.  No doubt the 2nd stringers would have loved to show off their goods while the 1s were being rested.


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## timbuck (Aug 4, 2016)

Doesn't "match fixing" usually involve gambling?  Unless somebody had money betting that there would be a tie, then I think the term "matching fixing" or collusion are not the right terms here.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 4, 2016)

dfbmike said:


> There certainly is some strategy and game planning involved, but calling it game fixing is quite the stretch.  both teams just needed a tie, they earned the right to be in that position.
> happens at all levels.  remember the portugal/croatia match in the recent euros?  yeah probably not, because portugal ended up winning it all and nobody cares how they did it.
> that being said it would be hard to believe that the players did this on their own and the game "just fell that way", coaches are always in charge.  No doubt the 2nd stringers would have loved to show off their goods while the 1s were being rested.


One correction that seems minor but is actually very important.  Neither team needed a tie.  Carlsbad didn't need anything.  They could have lost by a hundred and Carlsbad was still going through.  Ambassadors didn't need a tie either.  They simply needed to not lose by more than 3.  At the start of the game, actually, the goal differential that 3rd place Syracuse needed to make up to go through was 7 goals.  Syracuse got 3 of those goals on their own, but how could they expect a totally unmotivated Carlsbad team to make up the other 4 for them when Carlsbad was resting for the semis?  Carlsbad's play in the first 2 games afforded them the right to simply rest.  So what's the coaches' and teams' obligations here?  To look out for their team and do what's in the team's best interest and the health of their players?  Or look out for "the optics of the game?"

Had this game been reported correctly from the outset, this would never have been a story.  "Watch two teams that are already through to the semi finals affect nothing in the tournament as they smartly rest their players in 110 degree heat."


----------



## dfbmike (Aug 4, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> One correction that seems minor but is actually very important.  Neither team needed a tie.  Carlsbad didn't need anything.  They could have lost by a hundred and Carlsbad was still going through.  Ambassadors didn't need a tie either.  They simply needed to not lose by more than 3.  At the start of the game, actually, the goal differential that 3rd place Syracuse needed to make up to go through was 7 goals.  Syracuse got 3 of those goals on their own, but how could they expect a totally unmotivated Carlsbad team to make up the other 4 for them when Carlsbad was resting for the semis?  Carlsbad's play in the first 2 games afforded them the right to simply rest.  So what's the coaches' and teams' obligations here?  To look out for their team and do what's in the team's best interest and the health of their players?  Or look out for "the optics of the game?"
> 
> Had this game been reported correctly from the outset, this would never have been a story.  "Watch two teams that are already through to the semi finals affect nothing in the tournament as they smartly rest their players in 110 degree heat."


not at all disagreeing with you...non issue to me


----------



## Eagle33 (Aug 4, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> One correction that seems minor but is actually very important.  Neither team needed a tie.  Carlsbad didn't need anything.  They could have lost by a hundred and Carlsbad was still going through.  Ambassadors didn't need a tie either.  They simply needed to not lose by more than 3.  At the start of the game, actually, the goal differential that 3rd place Syracuse needed to make up to go through was 7 goals.  Syracuse got 3 of those goals on their own, but how could they expect a totally unmotivated Carlsbad team to make up the other 4 for them when Carlsbad was resting for the semis?  Carlsbad's play in the first 2 games afforded them the right to simply rest.  So what's the coaches' and teams' obligations here?  To look out for their team and do what's in the team's best interest and the health of their players?  Or look out for "the optics of the game?"
> 
> Had this game been reported correctly from the outset, this would never have been a story.  "Watch two teams that are already through to the semi finals affect nothing in the tournament as they smartly rest their players in 110 degree heat."


I guess you missing the most important point in all this - Spirit and Fairness of the GAME. Nobody cares about the end result or who needed what to advance. There are plenty options for the coach to rest his/her starters. I'm sure both teams had at least 18 players there and few of them don't get to play much in a REAL competitive game, so why not let them play? It's not about this at all, it's about the GAME itself. It was disrespectful to the GAME to come on the field and have this kind of circus. I don't believe for a second that it was initiated by the players without coaches being involved. Don't start throwing excuses - it was hot, it means nothing, resting players....Nonsense. This was the worst  I've seen, and I've seen quite of few games at very different levels. 
I coach myself and have been in exactly the same situations few times - 2 teams advancing anyway and the game don't matter, besides who is first or second. However, not for a second it crossed my mind that I will let my players perform this kind of spectacle. Normally in games like this, I let players play in different positions, work on certain things... few things I can think of. Using another game to get ready for the next without any pressure - perfect scenario for any coach. However your coach, and I'm guessing other team coach, decided to put up the side show....It's just wrong on all counts.


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## texanincali (Aug 4, 2016)

Eagle33 said:


> I guess you missing the most important point in all this - Spirit and Fairness of the GAME. Nobody cares about the end result or who needed what to advance. There are plenty options for the coach to rest his/her starters. I'm sure both teams had at least 18 players there and few of them don't get to play much in a REAL competitive game, so why not let them play? It's not about this at all, it's about the GAME itself. It was disrespectful to the GAME to come on the field and have this kind of circus. I don't believe for a second that it was initiated by the players without coaches being involved. Don't start throwing excuses - it was hot, it means nothing, resting players....Nonsense. This was the worst  I've seen, and I've seen quite of few games at very different levels.
> I coach myself and have been in exactly the same situations few times - 2 teams advancing anyway and the game don't matter, besides who is first or second. However, not for a second it crossed my mind that I will let my players perform this kind of spectacle. Normally in games like this, I let players play in different positions, work on certain things... few things I can think of. Using another game to get ready for the next without any pressure - perfect scenario for any coach. However your coach, and I'm guessing other team coach, decided to put up the side show....It's just wrong on all counts.


Well said.  It defies logic to think that some are "ok" with what took place on that field.

I am trying to think of comparisons but even those are difficult to come up with - without being completely outlandish.

I'll give it a try none the less.

Last game of NBA season - Lakers vs Clippers - both teams already in playoffs - playoff seeds set - Kobe (or 10th guy on the bench) and CP3 (or 10th guy on the bench) pass back and forth for 48 minutes...this would NEVER happen
Last game of NFL season - Cowboys vs Giants - Cowboys are in playoffs and Giants are not - Romo hands off to running back who falls down 3 times - punt - Eli hands off to running back who falls down 3 times - punt...this would NEVER happen.
Last game of NHL season - Blues vs Sharks - Blues locked in a #3 seed and Sharks at #5 seed - puck drops - no one skates - pass back and forth - game over...this would NEVER happen
In reality this argument is going in circles and I don't see either side changing their opinion.  However, no one with a competitive bone in their body would advocate for making a mockery of their sport. 

I guess karma came back to bite both these teams - maybe that match broke a decent rhythm that each team had, maybe it didn't.  In the end, I think most are glad neither one of these teams won the tournament.


----------



## LadiesMan217 (Aug 4, 2016)

texanincali said:


> Well said.  It defies logic to think that some are "ok" with what took place on that field.
> 
> I am trying to think of comparisons but even those are difficult to come up with - without being completely outlandish.
> 
> ...


Not a good comparison of 18 year old girls -vs- professional teams with Vegas odds and legal gambling.


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## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

Eagle33 said:


> ...It's just wrong on all counts.


Just asking you what I asked another poster - and got no answer.  Two parts.
Given - no laws or rules were broken...

1  What would you do about what happened?

2  How would you justify your sanctions?


----------



## Simisoccerfan (Aug 4, 2016)

The funniest thing about this whole game is all of the trolls here, that had nothing to do with the game that was played, complaining.  Sounds like a lot of people with hidden agendas.  The true issue was that they were even holding the game in that heat.   Kudos to both teams in finding a legal way to expend as little energy as possible while still advancing.


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## texanincali (Aug 4, 2016)

LadiesMan217 said:


> Not a good comparison of 18 year old girls -vs- professional teams with Vegas odds and legal gambling.


So professional teams are required to actually play - but only because of betting lines?


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## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

texanincali said:


> So professional teams are required to actually play - but only because of betting lines?


I expect because they are professionals and paid to play.

I also expect if they did this and won the tournament they would be hailed as heroes.


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## texanincali (Aug 4, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I expect because they are professionals and paid to play.
> 
> I also expect if they did this and won the tournament they would be hailed as heroes.


You are quite obviously a WUM and quite honestly it is like debating my 6 year old about politics.

The fact that you saw nothing wrong with the way that match played out, quite frankly, speaks volumes about you.  Also, the fact that you are at all involved in this game, especially at the youth level is quite worrisome.

Good day.


----------



## MessiFTW (Aug 4, 2016)

It happens when your kid or the win is more important than the game, morality, right and wrong, truth, fairness, and sportmanship.  It happens when God becomes god and the blind lead the blind.


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## espola (Aug 4, 2016)

texanincali said:


> You are quite obviously a WUM and quite honestly it is like debating my 6 year old about politics.
> 
> The fact that you saw nothing wrong with the way that match played out, quite frankly, speaks volumes about you.  Also, the fact that you are at all involved in this game, especially at the youth level is quite worrisome.
> 
> Good day.


What is a WUM?


----------



## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

Not quite sure how one's playing style (within rules) is now about morality, right and wrong...


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## espola (Aug 4, 2016)

I kick the ball down the field, and people complain because I don't pass enough.

My teammates and I pass the ball 64 times, and people complain because we don't kick the ball down the field enough.


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## MessiFTW (Aug 4, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Not quite sure how one's playing style (within rules) is now about morality, right and wrong...


You wouldn't.  That is the point.


----------



## iliv (Aug 4, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Not quite sure how one's playing style (within rules) is now about morality, right and wrong...


It obviously goes against the spirit of the game as evidenced by USYS statement

"US Youth Soccer will review its policies and make any necessary alterations to ensure this type of display doesn’t happen in the future". That's the BS the academy is trying to do away with.


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## outside! (Aug 4, 2016)

How many people on this forum were the ones hauling themselves up and down the field in the Texas heat? Our kids play too many games, and tournaments put those games too close together. Through strong play the two previous days, the 17  and 18 year old players that actually were on the field had put themselves into a position where the game was meaningless to them. They also probably know more about the game of soccer than most of those posting. Those who were not on the field yet still feel the need to denigrate those who were should maybe get a life and move along.


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## timbuck (Aug 4, 2016)

outside! said:


> How many people on this forum were the ones hauling themselves up and down the field in the Texas heat? Our kids play too many games, and tournaments put those games too close together. Through strong play the two previous days, the 17  and 18 year old players that actually were on the field had put themselves into a position where the game was meaningless to them. They also probably know more about the game of soccer than most of those posting. Those who were not on the field yet still feel the need to denigrate those who were should maybe get a life and move along.


You make a good point.  When these girls go away to college next year, they will NEVER again play 2 or 3 games in a day.  And I don't think they'll ever play a game on back to back days. 
Sure, it's cool to crown a "champion" but why do we expect "kids" to be able to perform at their peak across 3 games in 24-48 hours when we don't ask the same of adults.


----------



## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

iliv said:


> It obviously goes against the spirit of the game as evidenced by USYS statement
> 
> "US Youth Soccer will review its policies and make any necessary alterations to ensure this type of display doesn’t happen in the future". That's the BS the academy is trying to do away with.


 But, the only one they say needs to change is USYS (policy).  There was nothing directed at the teams in that statement.
The fix would be to make each game a knockout game.   Still, get way ahead and players can back off.


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## texanincali (Aug 4, 2016)

Let's play this game.

USYSA implements a new rule.  That new rule states that "if two teams are guaranteed to meet in the finals (or advance to the next round) and are scheduled to play in the final group game, then both teams may agree to NOT play the final group game."

Question for you...would the game we have been discussing still have to be played or not?

This exact scenario happened in the final group game in the U13 girls.  SoCal Blues and Solar were both guaranteed spots in the final.  What did they do?  They played the game, utilizing players that hadn't seen much time, in the blazing Texas heat...and they were 12 and 13 year old girls.

The young ones can handle it, but the big girls can't.

You have tuned this entire debate into a joke.

WUM = Wind Up Merchant or someone who takes opposing sides to a debate just for fun - no matter how ridiculous their stance is.


----------



## iliv (Aug 4, 2016)

Zoro said:


> But, the only one they say needs to change is USYS (policy).  There was nothing directed at the teams in that statement.
> The fix would be to make each game a knockout game.   Still, get way ahead and players can back off.


Nothing directed towards the teams?   Ok, I'll bite again.   According to the USYS statement, 

"we believe the strategy of the coaches in this game failed their players, the competition and the principles of sportsmanship and fair play".  

That was one line above what I previously quoted.   Pretty darn clear what USYS thinks of their play.


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## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

texanincali said:


> Let's play this game.
> 
> USYSA implements a new rule.  That new rule states that "if two teams are guaranteed to meet in the finals and are scheduled to play in the final group game, then both teams may agree to NOT play the final group game."
> 
> ...


The teams have to do whatever the rules are to win the hardware.  If those were the new rules - and those teams were guaranteed to be in the finals, then no.
But you said the two teams we are discussing.  Both were not in that situation, which is why only one made it to the finals.

WUM - I enjoy a discussion and I try to answer.  My "side" has been for the near decade I've been on this site that teams should play to win and use the rules and the laws.   I officiated for a decade too - started adult and did U8 and in between.  Games are officiated differently by age and/or skill.  If this happened in an AYSO U10 - I'd stop the game.  AYSO is rec.  This was a piece on the way to the National Finals.

To me the part that is a tell that posters are parents of players, not at the G18 finalist level, is the moralization of actions totally within the rules.
Wrong things would be purposely - falsifying information, using ineligible players, hurting others, which are regular occurrences.   Equating not playing hard enough to right and wrong is a stretch for me.

It may be hard / not fun to watch, but a stretch to attach player or coach character to.  Both my kids had to and have to balance, as I expect yours do.  That means sometimes they do not try their hardest.  If my son had a guaranteed A in a class he might not do an assignment, and do something else.


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## Zoro (Aug 4, 2016)

iliv said:


> Nothing directed towards the teams?   Ok, I'll bite again.   According to the USYS statement,
> 
> "we believe the strategy of the coaches in this game failed their players, the competition and the principles of sportsmanship and fair play".
> 
> That was one line above what I previously quoted.   Pretty darn clear what USYS thinks of their play.


My response was to the quote.  You can tell because I said *"in that statement."*
Meaning the one you wrote and I quoted.

My original opinion on page early was there was nothing that would be done to those teams.  I gave the opinion it was not nice to watch and my wife didn't like it.

I also asked a few times what should be done about it and under what grounds.
So far nobody has responded to that.  USYS isn't doing anything to the teams that I have heard about.  If they do, it is just not what I expected.  I doubt anything will happen as there are no grounds for it (that I am aware of).


----------



## Eagle33 (Aug 5, 2016)

Zoro said:


> My response was to the quote.  You can tell because I said *"in that statement."*
> Meaning the one you wrote and I quoted.
> 
> My original opinion on page early was there was nothing that would be done to those teams.  I gave the opinion it was not nice to watch and my wife didn't like it.
> ...


You are absolutely right. From Laws of the game standpoint, nothing was done wrong in this game. There is nothing anyone can do about it, except changing Laws or Bylaws of the competition in the future. 
However the discussion is not about that, it's about moral side of the story and coaches who allowed this to happen.


----------



## Nut Meg (Aug 5, 2016)

espola said:


> What is a WUM?


 That may very well be the funniest thing you have ever posted.  Thanks!


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## Surfref (Aug 5, 2016)

The game should not have been played in in that level of heat.


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## jrcaesar (Aug 5, 2016)

Surfref said:


> The game should not have been played in in that level of heat.


^^^ Yes, this! ^^^^^

There are heat policies on the USYS site that acknowledge the heat danger of activities. Why, in a complex with 12+ fields, are games being scheduled in groups of five at 1:30 pm?


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## Mystery Train (Aug 5, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I also asked a few times what should be done about it and under what grounds.
> So far nobody has responded to that.  USYS isn't doing anything to the teams that I have heard about.  If they do, it is just not what I expected.  I doubt anything will happen as there are no grounds for it (that I am aware of).


I'll give you my answer. 

I was appalled by the video clip and was quick to react to the image of two teams standing in place and tapping a ball to each other for two minutes.  Reading GKdad's first hand account which stated that the game started out with some probing attacks and runs and then devolved into what was shown on the clip when both teams realized there was going to be no pressure put in their defensive half, softened me a bit.  We all can be guilty of overreacting to 90 seconds of video out of context. But even if the entire game was "played" like the video clip, I don't think USYS should take aggressive action or sanction/suspend people over it because, as you said, no rules were broken.  Sanctioning and suspending for violating the "spirit" of the game is not something an administrative body wants to get into.  So you're right . . . in a lawyerly kind of way (sounds like that may even be your line of work, no?), but that doesn't mean that we can't all learn from this and make it a teachable moment.  It was a terrible look for both coaches, at the very least.  I think most of us would not have been really proud to walk off the field that day if we had been participants.  My reaction to the video was not a legal/rules disagreement, but rather feeling like the coaches robbed their players of the dignity that every competitor feels when they walk off the field having given their all to the game win or lose.  It ceases to be a "game" when there is no risk involved.  And games are supposed to be fun.  That goes for every level of sport all the way to professional.  If there is no risk, there is no game, if it isn't a game, what is the damn point?  A trophy for the sake of a trophy?  I think the coaches involved could benefit from some soul-searching.  In retrospect, could they have achieved their goal and still honored the spirit of the game?  I think so, because I've seen other coaches do it. My daughter's coach did it and many of the posters here have told stories where their team was in a similar situation and a competitive game was still held.  Nobody needs to be drawn and quartered over this, but I wouldn't have been proud to be a part of that spectacle.    And I don't think anyone should bash the kids over this.  They aren't to blame.


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 5, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> I'll give you my answer.
> 
> I was appalled by the video clip and was quick to react to the image of two teams standing in place and tapping a ball to each other for two minutes.  Reading GKdad's first hand account which stated that the game started out with some probing attacks and runs and then devolved into what was shown on the clip when both teams realized there was going to be no pressure put in their defensive half, softened me a bit.  We all can be guilty of overreacting to 90 seconds of video out of context. But even if the entire game was "played" like the video clip, I don't think USYS should take aggressive action or sanction/suspend people over it because, as you said, no rules were broken.  Sanctioning and suspending for violating the "spirit" of the game is not something an administrative body wants to get into.  So you're right . . . in a lawyerly kind of way (sounds like that may even be your line of work, no?), but that doesn't mean that we can't all learn from this and make it a teachable moment.  It was a terrible look for both coaches, at the very least.  I think most of us would not have been really proud to walk off the field that day if we had been participants.  My reaction to the video was not a legal/rules disagreement, but rather feeling like the coaches robbed their players of the dignity that every competitor feels when they walk off the field having given their all to the game win or lose.  It ceases to be a "game" when there is no risk involved.  And games are supposed to be fun.  That goes for every level of sport all the way to professional.  If there is no risk, there is no game, if it isn't a game, what is the damn point?  A trophy for the sake of a trophy?  I think the coaches involved could benefit from some soul-searching.  In retrospect, could they have achieved their goal and still honored the spirit of the game?  I think so, because I've seen other coaches do it. My daughter's coach did it and many of the posters here have told stories where their team was in a similar situation and a competitive game was still held.  Nobody needs to be drawn and quartered over this, but I wouldn't have been proud to be a part of that spectacle.    And I don't think anyone should bash the kids over this.  They aren't to blame.


Honestly, I think that's a pretty fair assessment and summation.  I think all of the coaches involved, if presented with the exact same scenario again, would probably handle it differently such that the optics would appear less offensive.  The ultimate outcome would be no different (in terms of which teams went through or not), but the game might look more like a game.  I'm still not convinced it would change the reaction from Syracuse that somehow seemed to think Carlsbad owed something to them and to the spirit of the game to do their best to help them by beating Ambassadors by the 4 goals they needed. 

As for how people "felt" during and after the game, that's hard to answer.  Any natural feelings the players and parents may have had during and after about how the game was played were quickly replaced by a feeling of absolute disgust from the behavior of Syracuse when they descended upon our game with their repulsiveness.  When the game ended, our direction and concern was to get the girls onto their vans as fast as possible and with escorts from tournament security and parents to protect them from any verbal assaults  (or worse) that Syracuse directed at them.  Honestly, their reaction took over any thought or memory anyone had regarding that game.  It further made it pretty easy for no one to feel any remorse or regret about the game, because, "F-you, Syracuse, you are all a bunch of dicks and you just proved it.  Enjoy your flight home."


----------



## Zoro (Aug 5, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> I'll give you my answer.
> ... Nobody needs to be drawn and quartered over this, but I wouldn't have been proud to be a part of that spectacle.    And I don't think anyone should bash the kids over this.  They aren't to blame.


Thank you for your answer.
Note that you are not one saying anything should be done, so respectfully you are not the poster I was looking to respond to the question.  I was looking for someone that had an action in mind and I wanted to hear how they would justify it.  Your answer was in the end the same as mine.  There is nothing to do.
I would, as USYS look at the rules that allow this (games that do not require a winner to advance - aka pool play) and determine if it is worth changing them.
But some here think this is a morality/right/wrong issue.  I don't.  But I'll respond to the OP who maybe should have said this thread was about the morality on how you play the ball in the opening line.



Eagle33 said:


> ...
> However the discussion is not about that, it's about moral side of the story and coaches who allowed this to happen.


I assume what was immoral was how the ball was played.  Or the spectators speech, certainly if true, but that is not the focus of this thread.
But who was it that was immoral?   Players broke no rules.  Coaches broke no rules.  The cause of this was USYS that made rules.
So is USYS an immoral organization, or just this was an immoral tournament by playing girls in the heat?
Anyway who should we blame for being immoral?

I think the whole right/wrong, big G little g, moral argument here is a bit heavy**.  The discussion should be what should be done, or not.  USYS made rules and different rules would cause different results.  That should be the focus.

**My son who is the same age as these girls.  Today he is sitting in the USAF Academy reviewing when to obey/deny orders on moral  grounds.   They think 17/18 year old's can judge that with weapons ,  but many here on this soccer thread think these girls don't have that capability.


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## Mystery Train (Aug 5, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> Honestly, I think that's a pretty fair assessment and summation.  I think all of the coaches involved, if presented with the exact same scenario again, would probably handle it differently such that the optics would appear less offensive.  The ultimate outcome would be no different (in terms of which teams went through or not), but the game might look more like a game.  I'm still not convinced it would change the reaction from Syracuse that somehow seemed to think Carlsbad owed something to them and to the spirit of the game to do their best to help them by beating Ambassadors by the 4 goals they needed.
> 
> As for how people "felt" during and after the game, that's hard to answer.  Any natural feelings the players and parents may have had during and after about how the game was played were quickly replaced by a feeling of absolute disgust from the behavior of Syracuse when they descended upon our game with their repulsiveness.  When the game ended, our direction and concern was to get the girls onto their vans as fast as possible and with escorts from tournament security and parents to protect them from any verbal assaults  (or worse) that Syracuse directed at them.  Honestly, their reaction took over any thought or memory anyone had regarding that game.  It further made it pretty easy for no one to feel any remorse or regret about the game, because, "F-you, Syracuse, you are all a bunch of dicks and you just proved it.  Enjoy your flight home."


Yes.  It's too bad there isn't a video clip of the Syracuse parent's verbal abuse.  I can understand being frustrated, but they should have won when it counted.


----------



## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 5, 2016)

In my last post, I suggested that the coaches and players involved would likely do it differently if this scenario came up again, but to Zoro's posts, would USYS?  THE refs?  The head of referees?  The representatives from Cal South?  The tournament officials?  ALL of them were there, and ALL of them were asked many times as the game continued to devolve, if what was happening was OK.  All of them said it was.  Do we think maybe they would give different responses now when asked again?  If so, WHAT could they tell the teams they had to do?  Other than, "hey, can you please just make it look better," I'm not sure what actual instruction they could give.


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## Surfref (Aug 5, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> In my last post, I suggested that the coaches and players involved would likely do it differently if this scenario came up again, but to Zoro's posts, would USYS?  THE refs?  The head of referees?  The representatives from Cal South?  The tournament officials?  ALL of them were there, and ALL of them were asked many times as the game continued to devolve, if what was happening was OK.  All of them said it was.  Do we think maybe they would give different responses now when asked again?  If so, WHAT could they tell the teams they had to do?  Other than, "hey, can you please just make it look better," I'm not sure what actual instruction they could give.


As long as the players where not sitting down, which I would interpret as a possible heat related injury, there isn't anything the referee could do.  I am not sure what you (posters on this forum) would expect the referee do other than to note the style of play or lack there of in the match.  From the short video I saw and read on hear, it appears as if the LOTG and tournament rules were not violated.


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## ajaffe (Aug 5, 2016)

At what point do you all just agree to disagree? It is clearly obvious there is a lot of grey area on this one. 

Was it in the "spirit" of the competition? No
Was it in the "spirit" of competition? Sure


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## Surfref (Aug 6, 2016)

At Surf Cup today during an LAGSD game my AR says at halftime the parents were saying, "This is the team I saw on ESPN that cheated at National Cup."  I set my AR straight and told her to ignore the parents.  I was surprised at the inaccurate story the opposing teams parents were spreading.


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## LadiesMan217 (Aug 6, 2016)

Surfref said:


> At Surf Cup today during an LAGSD game my AR says at halftime the parents were saying, "This is the team I saw on ESPN that cheated at National Cup."  I set my AR straight and told her to ignore the parents.  I was surprised at the inaccurate story the opposing teams parents were spreading.


Bwahahahahahahaha


----------



## meatsweats (Aug 6, 2016)

Surfref said:


> At Surf Cup today during an LAGSD game my AR says at halftime the parents were saying, "This is the team I saw on ESPN that cheated at National Cup."  I set my AR straight and told her to ignore the parents.  I was surprised at the inaccurate story the opposing teams parents were spreading.


Isn't today the "youngers" at Surf Cup??


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## Zoro (Aug 7, 2016)

ajaffe said:


> ....
> Was it in the "spirit" of the competition? No...


Obviously, by now, I disagree.  
The competition was the tournament.  They were totally within the spirit of winning the National championship - just they didn't.

Not that a cycling analogy will help but...
This was just like a stage in the Tour de France.  Riders in stages hold back so they can help another day.


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## ajaffe (Aug 7, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Obviously, by now, I disagree.
> The competition was the tournament.  They were totally within the spirit of winning the National championship - just they didn't.
> 
> Not that a cycling analogy will help but...
> This was just like a stage in the Tour de France.  Riders in stages hold back so they can help another day.


Re-read my post, I was very intentional in my wording.


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## Zoro (Aug 7, 2016)

ajaffe said:


> Re-read my post, I was very intentional in my wording.


I saw the quotes.  What disturbs me is competition authorities making up rules after the fact.  Seems USYS is doing this.  There is no rule about Spirit of the game.  A fine over Spirit (to both teams - what they said they did) - suggests to me they have no idea about what the Spirit of the Game is.    
There are rules, laws and Spirit.  Fines over Spirit violations makes me both sad and happy we are not involved with USYS.


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## texanincali (Aug 7, 2016)

Zoro said:


> This was just like a stage in the Tour de France.  Riders in stages hold back so they can help another day.


Actually, the two are absolutely nothing alike.


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## espola (Aug 7, 2016)

Zoro said:


> I saw the quotes.  What disturbs me is competition authorities making up rules after the fact.  Seems USYS is doing this.  There is no rule about Spirit of the game.  A fine over Spirit (to both teams - what they said they did) - suggests to me they have no idea about what the Spirit of the Game is.
> There are rules, laws and Spirit.  Fines over Spirit violations makes me both sad and happy we are not involved with USYS.


Has there been any announcements about punishments to the coaches or their clubs?  I agree that nothing the teams did violated any published laws or rules of competition.  In fact, I can imagine both coaches giving almost the same pre-game instructions to their teams, telling them to play tight defense and not worry about going forward, since they don't have to win, just not lose.


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## LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad (Aug 7, 2016)

espola said:


> Has there been any announcements about punishments to the coaches or their clubs?  I agree that nothing the teams did violated any published laws or rules of competition.  In fact, I can imagine both coaches giving almost the same pre-game instructions to their teams, telling them to play tight defense and not worry about going forward, since they don't have to win, just not lose.


Even that's not entirely accurate.  One of the two teams COULD lose by as many goals as one could fathom.  The other team could lose by 3 and still go through.  At the start of the game, the goal differential was actually SEVEN goals, but Syracuse made up 3 on their own against an equally unmotivated opponent.

As for fines or penalties, I'm not at liberty to share the details, but it's expected both teams will handily prevail in their appeals...as they should.  But if not, in practicality, it doesn't have any impact on either team or the coaches of either team in future competition.


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## Truth (Aug 7, 2016)

LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad said:


> In my last post, I suggested that the coaches and players involved would likely do it differently if this scenario came up again, but to Zoro's posts, would USYS?  THE refs?  The head of referees?  The representatives from Cal South?  The tournament officials?  ALL of them were there, and ALL of them were asked many times as the game continued to devolve, if what was happening was OK.  All of them said it was.  Do we think maybe they would give different responses now when asked again?  If so, WHAT could they tell the teams they had to do?  Other than, "hey, can you please just make it look better," I'm not sure what actual instruction they could give.


How about "Just play the game."


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## Truth (Aug 7, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Obviously, by now, I disagree.
> The competition was the tournament.  They were totally within the spirit of winning the National championship - just they didn't.
> 
> Not that a cycling analogy will help but...
> This was just like a stage in the Tour de France.  Riders in stages hold back so they can help another day.


I'm going to use this same logic to tell my kid to go ahead and cheat on his next big test. It's not the actual test results that matter, it's getting the grade that helps you advance in life. Ends justifies the means.


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## Truth (Aug 7, 2016)

Is there anyone on this thread who thinks this was not match fixing? Both teams conspired to produce a result that they wanted, removing actual competition. 

I am one of the few people here who actually watched this match and not associated with either team. I think is USYS would stop hiding the evidence, this discussion would be put to rest quickly. The Truth will set you free. 

The Syracuse team had a right to complain. They were entitled to a fair competition, and did not get one.


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## espola (Aug 7, 2016)

Truth said:


> I'm going to use this same logic to tell my kid to go ahead and cheat on his next big test. It's not the actual test results that matter, it's getting the grade that helps you advance in life. Ends justifies the means.


You're babbling.


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## Fact (Aug 8, 2016)

Truth said:


> How about "Just play the game."


How about just give it a rest.

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but it you look at the other thread Truth-Not responded to, "Surf Cup Move" I get the impression he is a Surf insider.  It leads me to believe he is the same poster on the old forum that used a different name . .  . something "dad."  

So, is he really concerned about the game, or the FACT that Surf is no longer the only game in town for girls.  With Carlsbad getting a DA , Surf has a lot to be concerned about!


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## outside! (Aug 8, 2016)

Truth said:


> Is there anyone on this thread who thinks this was not match fixing? Both teams conspired to produce a result that they wanted, removing actual competition.
> 
> I am one of the few people here who actually watched this match and not associated with either team. I think is USYS would stop hiding the evidence, this discussion would be put to rest quickly. The Truth will set you free.
> 
> The Syracuse team had a right to complain. They were entitled to a fair competition, and did not get one.


Syracuse did get a fair competition and lost 6-0.

Half these young women are back with their college teams now and aren't even thinking about this anymore. The other half are enjoying what is left of their summer and are also not thinking about this anymore.

Were you there? Were you running around in the 109 degree heat index? Why don't you give the PLAYERS the benefit of the doubt and move on?


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## espola (Aug 8, 2016)

Fact said:


> How about just give it a rest.
> 
> I don't know what anyone else thinks, but it you look at the other thread Truth-Not responded to, "Surf Cup Move" I get the impression he is a Surf insider.  It leads me to believe he is the same poster on the old forum that used a different name . .  . something "dad."
> 
> So, is he really concerned about the game, or the FACT that Surf is no longer the only game in town for girls.  With Carlsbad getting a DA , Surf has a lot to be concerned about!


I think she is a parent who doesn't like hearing the truth, ironically.


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## Zoro (Aug 8, 2016)

Kind of funny I have no idea what anyone is taking about.  Then I remembered this ignore feature is really good.  I don't even see quotes.


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## Zoro (Aug 21, 2016)

Well these USA G15 girls tried hard.   *United States 22, Trinidad & Tobago 0*


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 23, 2016)

MessiFTW said:


> It happens when your kid or the win is more important than the game, morality, right and wrong, truth, fairness, and sportmanship.  It happens when God becomes god and the blind lead the blind.


Can you fit any more cliches into that statement?  Have an original thought!  Tool!


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## MakeAPlay (Aug 23, 2016)

MessiFTW said:


> You wouldn't.  That is the point.


Like your morality?  You are pathetic!


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## Zoro (Aug 23, 2016)

texanincali said:


> Actually, the two are absolutely nothing alike.


Strategy is a bigger factor in cycling, esp classics and stage races than it is in soccer.  But I think the idea of getting ahead, resting, coming back the next day are similar.


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## Glen (Aug 23, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Strategy is a bigger factor in cycling, esp classics and stage races than it is in soccer.  But I think the idea of getting ahead, resting, coming back the next day are similar.


I know this is not the right thread, but what's your view on goalie gloves.  Maybe it's just the highlighter colors that stand out more, but these oversize "gloves" seem ridiculous.  And where does it stop?  I know that similar tactics of oversized equipment are used by hockey goalies for example, which I'm not a huge fan of either.  Tennis finally had to step in and regulate the oversized rackets because it was getting out of hand.

My proposal is to get rid of gloves altogether.  If that results in more scoring, that wouldn't be the worst thing for the sport.  It's not like football, where taking away receiver gloves would result in more drops (i.e., more boring football in my view).  But my DD is not a goalie, so I don't have that perspective.


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## Zoro (Aug 23, 2016)

Glen said:


> I know this is not the right thread, but what's your view on goalie gloves.  Maybe it's just the highlighter colors that stand out more, but these oversize "gloves" seem ridiculous.  And where does it stop?  I know that similar tactics of oversized equipment are used by hockey goalies for example, which I'm not a huge fan of either.  Tennis finally had to step in and regulate the oversized rackets because it was getting out of hand.
> 
> My proposal is to get rid of gloves altogether.  If that results in more scoring, that wouldn't be the worst thing for the sport.  It's not like football, where taking away receiver gloves would result in more drops (i.e., more boring football in my view).  But my DD is not a goalie, so I don't have that perspective.


It somewhat depends if you are male of female - and age.  Harder shots are better blocked than caught, so mitts make more sense.  Coaches may not agree.  Last I was into it - and I was really into it, was about 4 years ago and they were all way better than only 4 years before that.  For a mature player no spines, stiffeners in the fingers.  For a keeper lacking confidence - look for spines.  I think it matters a lot more in the U10-U14 where I would look at finger support.  <70ish mph balls are catch-able, much over that there is a risk of dumping it into play and a punch, parry to the side, tip is a better choice.  Most male pros use open hand on a shot and stop/block.

For a girl - a wrist wrap matters.  If not in the glove - wrap the wrist anyway.  Basically Nike, Adidas and Sells all make top stuff.  The Reusch were always good but the others have caught up.
DD still likes here Adidas.  I'd have to check model.  All cost in the $150 range (sorry).   But, as I posted - a good keeper knows where to be.  Hands are a bonus.


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## Zoro (Aug 23, 2016)

Very easy to get me off track.  I may start a thread on GK.  
Anyway this was the best GK at the time and I believe would be the best now, although Manual Neuer plays a better positioning game IMO.  You can see how little catching is involved.  In slower balls - the women's game the ball is more catch-able.  But the point is to keep it out of goal, get it out of play.  Then, if you can - catch it.









DD copied him.


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## Glen (Aug 23, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Very easy to get me off track.  I may start a thread on GK.
> Anyway this was the best GK at the time and I believe would be the best now, although Manual Neuer plays a better positioning game IMO.  You can see how little catching is involved.  In slower balls - the women's game the ball is more catch-able.  But the point is to keep it out of goal, get it out of play.  Then, if you can - catch it.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with you.  I guess what I am focused on is that Kahn's hands are not that really big.  It looks like he is using gloves/mits that are way longer than his actual fingers so he can deflect more balls away from goal.  2:22 into the second video shows how enormous they are.   And 48 seconds into the first video, he wouldn't have saved that goal without the elongated gloves.  Which brings me back to my belief that goalies are essentially manipulating equipment to gain an extra advantage.  If goalies aren't really catching the ball, then why do they need gloves at all.  Is it just in the guise of protecting their hands?


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## Zoro (Aug 23, 2016)

Yes, they are.  But it is allowed.  So buy an inch longer in gloves than needed.


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