# I noticed not even a Pandemic could take down Pay to Play...



## Franco2020 (Sep 9, 2020)

Here in Norcal, clubs are still charging the same registrations fees as they did for Fall 2019 , some are reducing them a bit (less practices and no games, so not really a discount), but nothing drastic despite a Pandemic.  $3000+ a year plus tournaments seems to be the norm.   The US model is still broken.  $3100 to play in an MLS academy that is nor affiliated with an MLS team? Crazy model.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 13, 2020)

Franco2020 said:


> Here in Norcal, clubs are still charging the same registrations fees as they did for Fall 2019 , some are reducing them a bit (less practices and no games, so not really a discount), but nothing drastic despite a Pandemic.  $3000+ a year plus tournaments seems to be the norm.   The US model is still broken.  $3100 to play in an MLS academy that is nor affiliated with an MLS team? Crazy model.


I'm living my life as if were going to have a season.  I agonized over and over and the fact is, I dont have money to lose right now.   If no season, I'm a ship out of luck and will be lost at sea.  What does a dad do in this situation?  What are my options?
A.  Tell dd it's not going to happen and I can't lose any more money this season like last season?  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on you.  Fool me a third time?
B.  Tell myself that all will be ok after Nov 3rd and it will be money well spent?
C.  I love gambling, so this is some sic form of entertainment for me?
D.  Live one day at a time and live like their will be no tomorrow
E.  All the above except A & C


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## Chalklines (Sep 13, 2020)

California will be the last to have games of any kind. Its a sad reality that hurts kids involved in every sport, competitive and rec. Its our fault for paying this year knowing the reality.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 13, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> California will be the last to have games of any kind. Its a sad reality that hurts kids involved in every sport, competitive and rec. Its our fault for paying this year knowing the reality.


I see it more like an addiction with hope of seeing dd play a sport she loves.  Who cares, it's just money.  I'm done with money.  Reality is today and we learn from yesterday.  Tomorrow?  Do something to make it happen and live life to the fullest!!!


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## Willie (Sep 13, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> California will be the last to have games of any kind. Its a sad reality that hurts kids involved in every sport, competitive and rec. Its our fault for paying this year knowing the reality.


I expect a mass exodus after the season. Especially if no form of a fall season happens by that time. Few people will be able to justify spending the money on another year of fake practice.


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## dad4 (Sep 13, 2020)

Willie said:


> I expect a mass exodus after the season. Especially if no form of a fall season happens by that time. Few people will be able to justify spending the money on another year of fake practice.


For those who can afford it, maybe not.  I’m holding on to every scrap of normal I have.  Those fake practices are one of those scraps of normal.


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## futboldad1 (Sep 13, 2020)

These whiny ass threads wanting things for free..... me me me...... you’re even complaining about discounts FFS....... reason this country is in the crapper w everyone complaining rather than banding together.... my DDs club is doing best the state will allow, its not their fault and I want her club (and other clubs we play) to still be around when we get back to normal.....


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## kickingandscreaming (Sep 13, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I’m holding on to every scrap of normal I have.  Those fake practices are one of those scraps of normal.


This.


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## Willie (Sep 13, 2020)

dad4 said:


> For those who can afford it, maybe not.  I’m holding on to every scrap of normal I have.  Those fake practices are one of those scraps of normal.


I just do not see nearly as many people signing up to pay another 2-3k for distance training again.


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## timbuck (Sep 13, 2020)

Pandemic might not have wiped out pay to play. But if we do see a schedule with rosters anytime soon-  we are going to see a lot less players on teams. And/or a lot less teams.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 13, 2020)

I think players will get bored with the distance training and will start to quit. Even if their parents are willing to spend the money. So I agree with the sentiments that rosters will shrink, but not sure that'll be all about money.


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## notintheface (Sep 13, 2020)

As a country, we're about to see a massive amount of stagflation. Prices for just about everything are starting to rise, and discretionary incomes are going to be falling drastically. Something tells me that even AYSO teams are about to be a whole lot more competitive.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 13, 2020)

notintheface said:


> As a country, we're about to see a massive amount of stagflation. Prices for just about everything are starting to rise, and discretionary incomes are going to be falling drastically. Something tells me that even AYSO teams are about to be a whole lot more competitive.


Would you mind explaining what AYSO is? I've seen that mentioned but am not at all familiar with it.


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## notintheface (Sep 13, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Would you mind explaining what AYSO is? I've seen that mentioned but am not at all familiar with it.


Rec league level. Think parents and volunteers as coaches. It's the option for families who don't want to pay thousands of dollars over the course of a year-- pay $100 or so and your kid gets 12 weeks of 1 or maybe 2 days of training per week plus a game.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 13, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Rec league level. Think parents and volunteers as coaches. It's the option for families who don't want to pay thousands of dollars over the course of a year-- pay $100 or so and your kid gets 12 weeks of 1 or maybe 2 days of training per week plus a game.


Oh! Ok, that makes sense. My kids played local rec as wee ones.


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## Giesbock (Sep 13, 2020)

For better or worse, we’re going to stay the course... nearing the end of club play (U17) and it has led to multiple potential opportunities to play high level collegiate.  Even if it turns out to be an ivy (no $) soccer will be a lever to get into a reach school .  Well respected coach with a strong network.  

if you have U little players, you might consider forming a small (6-8 players) training squad. Get with a great trainer and forget club patches, tournaments, uniforms and related expenses. Train like heck, learn the fundamentals and in a few years when all this Covid dust settles, jump back to club.

Worked for our daughter...


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## SFR (Sep 13, 2020)

Franco2020 said:


> Here in Norcal, clubs are still charging the same registrations fees as they did for Fall 2019 , some are reducing them a bit (less practices and no games, so not really a discount), but nothing drastic despite a Pandemic.  $3000+ a year plus tournaments seems to be the norm.   The US model is still broken.  $3100 to play in an MLS academy that is nor affiliated with an MLS team? Crazy model.


 Your idea is that if clubs can't provide regular practices and there are no games then the fee they charge is not justifiable. I am curios what you expect from clubs, reduce the fee by some 50%? At 1st, it sounds reasonable. But, it's not that simple. If your kids play competitive soccer like NPL, ECNL, MLS elite then clubs probably have high paid coaches for those teams. How do you see your clubs keeping those coaches but don't charge you? I understand it's very expensive to be on MLS academy that is not affiliated with an MLS team and it's not fair as real academy players don't pay. But there is no other model. Somebody has to pay $$$ for fields, good coaches, travel, and etc...  My son (u-16) is on one of those non-MLS academy teams and he is working very hard and loves playing soccer and every one on his team is the same. And if I tell my son let's skip this year with academy as the cost in my view is not justifiable then it will be more devastating for him then juts having these cripple practices and hope that the real season will start sooner than later. So, as long as I can afford I will pay that money.  By the way, our club is trying to do everything it can to keep the players. Of course, anything they do can't replace the real practices and competitions. And, also, I understand if we decide to skip one year it will be always impossible to get on the the team next year as nobody will keep the spot for us.


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## notintheface (Sep 13, 2020)

SFR said:


> And, also, I understand if we decide to skip one year it will be always impossible to get on the the team next year as nobody will keep the spot for us.


That is the club trying to pressure you into staying. "Keep paying, or maybe your kid doesn't make this squad." Tell that to your kid; his spot is because of the amount of money you pay. See what he thinks. Then tell him that you believe in his abilities and that there is absolutely nothing wrong dominating on a flight 1 squad that he has earned a spot, versus paying for some academy team that comes with an extremely nebulous return.


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## Giesbock (Sep 13, 2020)

notintheface said:


> That is the club trying to pressure you into staying. "Keep paying, or maybe your kid doesn't make this squad." Tell that to your kid; his spot is because of the amount of money you pay. See what he thinks. Then tell him that you believe in his abilities and that there is absolutely nothing wrong dominating on a flight 1 squad that he has earned a spot, versus paying for some academy team that comes with an extremely nebulous return.


Yeah, a club will be happy to have a talented player back UNLESS the coach is a manipulator, jealous type...  If that’s the case, best not to be around him or her in the first place!


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## SFR (Sep 13, 2020)

notintheface said:


> That is the club trying to pressure you into staying.
> No, club is not saying anything. The choice is ours. They presented us what they know at this point but no one can tell what and when this MLS elite starts due the you know what. They just asked us to make a decision if we want to join the team without any BS about now or never.  But here is


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## SFR (Sep 13, 2020)

-continue -> The point is that at the older age it will get harder to find a new team that matches your level of play. The roster is set to certain number and usually teams have only a few spots on the roster (at most). So skipping a season or going to play for a lower level never works out (with a few exceptions). And I don't think our club is offering spots on the team to players whose parents can afford. Anyway, I am willing to pay $$$ even it's a little bit to much as long as my son wants to play and doing fine (read not seat at the bench). 
BTW, I see a lot things that I wish club and youth soccer in general would do different from what and how they doing now.


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## SoccerEnvy (Sep 14, 2020)

I’ve never understood the argument against “pay to play” soccer. I understand theoretically of course. We want to train the best soccer players regardless of their families ability to pay. However, in this scenario who is funding youth soccer? 
government? MLS? Corporate entities? The reality is there is no other source of funding and when you consider that players and their families do get a certain amount of control over their soccer experience then it is perhaps the best option in the end.
Also, we continue to pay our children’s soccer fees because we have deep respect for their coaches and value the time and effort  they are putting into training our kids during this pandemic. It is the only time our kids get to go out of the house and socialize with a group of kids.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 14, 2020)

SoccerEnvy said:


> I’ve never understood the argument against “pay to play” soccer. I understand theoretically of course. We want to train the best soccer players regardless of their families ability to pay. However, in this scenario who is funding youth soccer?
> government? MLS? Corporate entities? The reality is there is no other source of funding


It’s simple, if your kid is a good player and you have the money, you can pay a lot to get them into ECNL.   Those that don’t have the money, cannot play.  
In other countries, your money won’t get your kid in the best program.  Talent is the most important requirement to make the academies.  

The abuse of pay to play is ridiculous.  There should only be a couple of academies per region.  Here we have ECNL, ECRL, DA, and all other made up programs that promote themselves as a way to get recruited but you need to pay $3k to $4k.    
Meanwhile some of the excellent players are doing high school soccer and local club soccer with minimal exposure to college scouts or professional soccer teams.  
I do agree that there needs to be some fees but $350 a month to play “elite soccer” ?


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

Tough (Boring) topic that comes around every month.  I can afford it so I will pay for it, simple.  And theres alot of people in this situation.  Also there are alot of kids that are straight ballers and they get a break or don't even pay at all, Id say that any of the top teams in the area have a kid or two that don't pay the full amount or any amount at all....And I fine with that too.  
We're parents on a soccer forum, we're all little over the top be honest, and yes we're all grasping onto hope.
Girls SW schedule is released, but will it happen ??


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> Your idea is that if clubs can't provide regular practices and there are no games then the fee they charge is not justifiable. I am curios what you expect from clubs, reduce the fee by some 50%? At 1st, it sounds reasonable. But, it's not that simple. If your kids play competitive soccer like NPL, ECNL, MLS elite then clubs probably have high paid coaches for those teams. How do you see your clubs keeping those coaches but don't charge you? I understand it's very expensive to be on MLS academy that is not affiliated with an MLS team and it's not fair as real academy players don't pay. But there is no other model. Somebody has to pay $$$ for fields, good coaches, travel, and etc...  My son (u-16) is on one of those non-MLS academy teams and he is working very hard and loves playing soccer and every one on his team is the same. And if I tell my son let's skip this year with academy as the cost in my view is not justifiable then it will be more devastating for him then juts having these cripple practices and hope that the real season will start sooner than later. So, as long as I can afford I will pay that money.  By the way, our club is trying to do everything it can to keep the players. Of course, anything they do can't replace the real practices and competitions. And, also, I understand if we decide to skip one year it will be always impossible to get on the the team next year as nobody will keep the spot for us.


Most clubs understand if someone is out of work and tight for cash right now.  If it is a problem, you should ask what they can do.


SoccerEnvy said:


> I’ve never understood the argument against “pay to play” soccer. I understand theoretically of course. We want to train the best soccer players regardless of their families ability to pay. However, in this scenario who is funding youth soccer?
> government? MLS? Corporate entities? The reality is there is no other source of funding and when you consider that players and their families do get a certain amount of control over their soccer experience then it is perhaps the best option in the end.
> Also, we continue to pay our children’s soccer fees because we have deep respect for their coaches and value the time and effort  they are putting into training our kids during this pandemic. It is the only time our kids get to go out of the house and socialize with a group of kids.


Not everyone is in a letter league for expert coaching.

For some kids, it's a network effect question.  They play elite level soccer because that's where their peers are.  Any system which sorts by ability would be fine.


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

We’re seeing extreme pay-to-play during Covid: No recreational or AYSO, those kids are taking a break; same with many club teams, especially lower flights and leagues, no season yet for SCDSL, etc, while Academy and ECNL have theirs; meanwhile, wealthier clubs are traveling out of state to play. If you got the money, you got more of an advantage now.


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## timbuck (Sep 14, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> We’re seeing extreme pay-to-play during Covid: No recreational or AYSO, those kids are taking a break; same with many club teams, especially lower flights and leagues, no season yet for SCDSL, etc, while Academy and ECNL have theirs; meanwhile, wealthier clubs are traveling out of state to play. If you got the money, you got more of an advantage now.


Pay to play has gotten a little worse.
Sure - some non "elite" (ECNL, DA, etc) would travel for a tournament once in a while.  But now you have 3rd teams travelling to play tournaments 6.5 hours away.  Taking time off of school to travel to AZ or UT.  Or you have HS aged players travelling but no college scouts around.
We should be getting back to more localized play.  I'll stay out of the political side of things -  But no way should anyone be travelling more than an hour just to play a soccer game right now.

Imagine you just drove 6+ hours and your kid gets a fever on the car ride.  If you tell your team -  the team probably has to forfeit all games.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 14, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> We’re seeing extreme pay-to-play during Covid: No recreational or AYSO, those kids are taking a break; same with many club teams, especially lower flights and leagues, no season yet for SCDSL, etc, while Academy and ECNL have theirs; meanwhile, wealthier clubs are traveling out of state to play. If you got the money, you got more of an advantage now.


My understanding that many AYSO regions were given Green light to start training.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> It’s simple, if your kid is a good player and you have the money, you can pay a lot to get them into ECNL.   Those that don’t have the money, cannot play.
> In other countries, your money won’t get your kid in the best program.  Talent is the most important requirement to make the academies.
> 
> The abuse of pay to play is ridiculous.  There should only be a couple of academies per region.  Here we have ECNL, ECRL, DA, and all other made up programs that promote themselves as a way to get recruited but you need to pay $3k to $4k.
> ...


I do not agree with you on a few of your points. And I agree that it's a big burden for those parents who just can't afford to pay those high fees. Every club has a system of helping those who can't afford to pay full fees. Through all the tryouts I have been with my kids nobody asked me upfront if I can pay or not. We got an offer from a club for a specific team and then if you want to register but can't pay as mush as club charges you can file for a financial assistance.  As for "couple of academies per region". Maximum number on the roster is 24-26 players. How many players that didn't make that academy have same skills as those that were selected? So, those ECNL, DA like programs will give them chance to play on high level but it's not going to be free. As someone mentioned here and I totally agree that if government or corporate world don't subsidize youth soccer then how you see youth soccer will strive? So, for those clubs that want to compete and play against ECNL, academies it's a big expense to hire good quality coaches (big debate could be here) and be qualified with all those league requirements. At the end, someone has to pay for it.


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Pay to play has gotten a little worse.
> Sure - some non "elite" (ECNL, DA, etc) would travel for a tournament once in a while.  But now you have 3rd teams travelling to play tournaments 6.5 hours away.  Taking time off of school to travel to AZ or UT.  Or you have HS aged players travelling but no college scouts around.
> We should be getting back to more localized play.  I'll stay out of the political side of things -  But no way should anyone be travelling more than an hour just to play a soccer game right now.
> 
> Imagine you just drove 6+ hours and your kid gets a fever on the car ride.  If you tell your team -  the team probably has to forfeit all games.


So Cal 3rd teams driving to UT to play other So Cal teams, an activity that is banned here.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> So Cal 3rd teams driving to UT to play other So Cal teams, an activity that is banned here.


So, the question here if it makes scene for any level team to travel outside of state to play game when there are no real practices are happening due the current circumstances. Just the technical point here that if you threw a player without proper conditioning on the field and start screaming run, attack, shot you get lot's of injuries and the output of the game will be probably not god. But you will have a lot of time to cool of on the way back.


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> I do not agree with you on a few of your points. And I agree that it's a big burden for those parents who just can't afford to pay those high fees. Every club has a system of helping those who can't afford to pay full fees. Through all the tryouts I have been with my kids nobody asked me upfront if I can pay or not. We got an offer from a club for a specific team and then if you want to register but can't pay as mush as club charges you can file for a financial assistance.  As for "couple of academies per region". Maximum number on the roster is 24-26 players. How many players that didn't make that academy have same skills as those that were selected? So, those ECNL, DA like programs will give them chance to play on high level but it's not going to be free. As someone mentioned here and I totally agree that if government or corporate world don't subsidize youth soccer then how you see youth soccer will strive? So, for those clubs that want to compete and play against ECNL, academies it's a big expense to hire good quality coaches (big debate could be here) and be qualified with all those league requirements. At the end, someone has to pay for it.


Awesome , everyone has different opinions and I respect yours 100%.

No one will ever ask you if you can afford the team fee's thats correct.

*BUT Going to your skill question.......if your kid truly has it, they'll make it work--TRUST ME.*

Never ever have I seen a coach turn down a kid that has skill and is a true GOAT.
A coach know his team and what he needs.
A parent thinks their lil jimmy or suzy is the next MBappe.
Kid trying out doesn't make it , cause he truly isn't skilled, he may be fast but his touch is off, they may be able to dribble but never ever look up, has a great right foot , but can't use their left if their life depends on it.....blah blah blah.
Personally tryouts are for rookies, call the coach and ask to practice with the team.

the reason their are levels to this game, is because their levels of skill out their, period.  DA teams should beat a CSL team, right?

Some kids got it, others are natural athletes but don't check all the boxes, Speed, skill, IQ, Stanima, Technique, Touch, etc......
*
What ruins the system really is parents , they THINK their kids are better than they really are, they never let the kids develop, because every year they jump from team to team, looking for a starting spot because lil suzy deserves it because she can juggle 100x in a row.

GTFOOH.*

And for the club paying for good coaches, yes I agree someone has to pay for it and thats me, cause I like what Im getting and so does my offsprings.


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## Giesbock (Sep 14, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> My understanding that many AYSO regions were given Green light to start training.


I believe Tustin AYSO is training under careful guidelines..


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## kickingandscreaming (Sep 14, 2020)

46n2 said:


> No one will ever ask you if you can afford the team fee's thats correct.
> 
> *BUT Going to your skill question.......if your kid truly has it, they'll make it work--TRUST ME.*
> 
> Never ever have I seen a coach turn down a kid that has skill and is a true GOAT.


This has been my experience as well. The player didn't have to be the best on the team, either - just one that earned the right to be there with their play.


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## futboldad1 (Sep 14, 2020)

46n2 said:


> Awesome , everyone has different opinions and I respect yours 100%.
> 
> No one will ever ask you if you can afford the team fee's thats correct.
> 
> ...


Great posting! I will say even kids who are talented are not enough to be kept on strong rosters when the parents are total a$$holes..... you know the types the ones who are so crazy they end up ruining their kids motivation....... my DD has told me some stories over the years about kids affected by this...... its often some of the quiet dads who turn into bullies and when the car door shuts...... sad but what can you do other than raise your own kid right by gently teaching them about accountability and supporting their team through thick and thin........


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> I do not agree with you on a few of your points. And I agree that it's a big burden for those parents who just can't afford to pay those high fees. Every club has a system of helping those who can't afford to pay full fees.  As for "couple of academies per region". Maximum number on the roster is 24-26 players. How many players that didn't make that academy have same skills as those that were selected? So, those ECNL, DA like programs will give them chance to play on high level but it's not going to be free. As someone mentioned here and I totally agree that if government or corporate world don't subsidize youth soccer then how you see youth soccer will strive? So,


I've heard from several ECNL coaches that the Great Park of Irvine is a great spot to hold practices because most of the kids with money are located in South OC.    One thing is the fee and the other the travel cost.   Not too many parents have the finances to take their kids to play in Utah, Las Vegas, AZ, every other weekend. Then you add trips to the East Coast in the summer.   

Why not keep the best players at Flight 1 and have them play against each other every weekend locally.  You can have an All Star team that gets to practice every other week and they get to travel in the summer for a couple of tournaments.   










						Alex Morgan says pay-to-play is hurting soccer in the US. Is she right?
					

The USA striker thinks the model for young players in America is broken. But figures such as MLS commissioner Don Garber disagree




					www.theguardian.com
				




The above article has some really good information to make this point of pay to play. 

1 A recent survey claimed young players from households earning less than $25,000 a year amounted to just 11% of boys and girls in registered clubs, compared to 35% in households bringing in over $100,000.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

46n2 said:


> Awesome , everyone has different opinions and I respect yours 100%.
> 
> No one will ever ask you if you can afford the team fee's thats correct.
> 
> ...


If you ask me It looks like we are on the same page. 
From your post you're mostly talking about what coaches are looking in players when they need to assemble or add a few more players. And you are correct it's not just how fast you can run 100 meters or if you can juggle gazillion times. To me it's an art to figure out a player and see the hidden potentials and decide which player will benefit your team the most. And, yes, for high level team you need to invite a player to practice with a team for some time, which is how it works with ECNL and DA like teams. 
___________
I wouldn't be so negative about parents ruing soccer. I understand your frustration with parents you described but it's usually one or two on the team, which could make very unpleasant experience for everyone players and parents. But I would blame the coach of not handling this situation. I believe a good coach should and could work with parents. If coach explains parents what he/she is doing and what he/she is looking for an example from participating a certain tournament. I think it would help to calm down most of the parents. Obviously, there is always someone who just can't be managed but then club should step in and help coach to deal with the parent.
Personally, I got very upset when I hear from coaches saying that parents shouldn't be involved in their kids development. And I even herd comments saying  parents shouldn't be allowed to come and watch games as they misdirect their kids.
_________________
And, yes, I am paying for my kid to be on high level team as I trust that our club is honestly trying to provide good quality in devolving our kids to learn playing soccer as well as other aspects of their life.


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

SoccerEnvy said:


> I’ve never understood the argument against “pay to play” soccer. I understand theoretically of course. We want to train the best soccer players regardless of their families ability to pay. However, in this scenario who is funding youth soccer?
> government? MLS? Corporate entities? The reality is there is no other source of funding and when you consider that players and their families do get a certain amount of control over their soccer experience then it is perhaps the best option in the end.
> Also, we continue to pay our children’s soccer fees because we have deep respect for their coaches and value the time and effort  they are putting into training our kids during this pandemic. It is the only time our kids get to go out of the house and socialize with a group of kids.


A good argument against pay to play is there’s a lot of talented kids that fall through the cracks because their family doesn’t have the wealth or flexibility with work to support their joining a travel team. In OC you have a lot of potential athletes that start out in rec soccer and drop out. Yeah, some are recruited and get a free ride via scholarships. But most, absolutely not. Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, little Mia goes straight to the baby Blues, pays for years of private training, has the family support and a head start to see whether she’s got enough talent to stay with the rest of the girls. The girl with two seasons of rec dropped out to do something else because she was not developed to the point where her potential could be seen. She missed out. The competition missed out on facing her. The National teams ultimately missed out.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 14, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> A good argument against pay to play is there’s a lot of talented kids that fall through the cracks because their family doesn’t have the wealth or flexibility with work to support their joining a travel team. In OC you have a lot of potential athletes that start out in rec soccer and drop out. Yeah, some are recruited and get a free ride via scholarships. But most, absolutely not. Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, little Mia goes straight to the baby Blues, pays for years of private training, has the family support and a head start to see whether she’s got enough talent to stay with the rest of the girls. The girl with two seasons of rec dropped out to do something else because she was not developed to the point where her potential could be seen. She missed out. The competition missed out on facing her. The National teams ultimately missed out.


That's just a case of "what if" and nothing else. Players who want to play don't quit.


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> That's just a case of "what if" and nothing else. Players who want to play don't quit.


Yeah, yeah.  I'll remember to give 110% and win one for the Gipper, too.  After all, there is no "I" in team.  Besides, good defense always beats good offense, and vice versa.

Are we done with sports platitudes and ready to return to the real world?  The world where dinner costs money, you need a car to drive places, and homework has to get done?


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## pokergod (Sep 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yeah, yeah.  I'll remember to give 110% and win one for the Gipper, too.  After all, there is no "I" in team.  Besides, good defense always beats good offense, and vice versa.
> 
> Are we done with sports platitudes and ready to return to the real world?  The world where dinner costs money, you need a car to drive places, and homework has to get done?


I think another question is going to be this-- will the pay to play system work when 90% of the scholarship opportunities that currently exist disappear?  The financial fallout on colleges is going to be devastating, even for the power 5.  The conferences outside the power five will not have the resources to fund women's soccer as we currently understand it.  How many people will continue paying club fees if there are no scholarships?


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## notintheface (Sep 14, 2020)

pokergod said:


> How many people will continue paying club fees if there are no scholarships?


If, as a parent, you do not have a backup plan for your kid -- learn your computer science, kids -- then you need a backup plan, immediately. Getting your kid into college on an athletic scholarship is already a crapshoot and now it's going to be 100x worse. Maybe instead of kicking the ball around four times a week, you spend one of those times working with your kid on writing some code.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

timbuck said:


> Pay to play has gotten a little worse.
> Sure - some non "elite" (ECNL, DA, etc) would travel for a tournament once in a while.  But now you have 3rd teams travelling to play tournaments 6.5 hours away.  Taking time off of school to travel to AZ or UT.  Or you have HS aged players travelling but no college scouts around.
> We should be getting back to more localized play.  I'll stay out of the political side of things -  But no way should anyone be travelling more than an hour just to play a soccer game right now.
> 
> Imagine you just drove 6+ hours and your kid gets a fever on the car ride.  If you tell your team -  the team probably has to forfeit all games.


Imagine the world was going to end Oct 31st.  I say go play the game before no more games.


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## tjinaz (Sep 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yeah, yeah.  I'll remember to give 110% and win one for the Gipper, too.  After all, there is no "I" in team.  Besides, good defense always beats good offense, and vice versa.
> 
> Are we done with sports platitudes and ready to return to the real world?  The world where dinner costs money, you need a car to drive places, and homework has to get done?


Yea.. next time you are at practice or a tournament look around.  Count the number of Escalades, Teslas, Volvos and Benzes in the parking lot vs 10yr old Camrys and F150s.  Club soccer is not a working man's sport here it's upper middle class.  When you say "peer group" that is who you mean.  You can take an average athlete and with enough training and effort they will beat the natural but give the same resources to the natural and its not close.   As far as who pays for it.. in both South America and Europe it is a combination of the government and the clubs.  The government or club provides the fields and the clubs recruit good players and don't charge to develop them as they make the money when they sell.  Hopefully the new MLSNEXT program finally does that for the boys here.  Don't think there is enough money in NWSL here to subsidize the girls.


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## tjinaz (Sep 14, 2020)

notintheface said:


> If, as a parent, you do not have a backup plan for your kid -- learn your computer science, kids -- then you need a backup plan, immediately. Getting your kid into college on an athletic scholarship is already a crapshoot and now it's going to be 100x worse. Maybe instead of kicking the ball around four times a week, you spend one of those times working with your kid on writing some code.


counting on a soccer scholarship to fund a college education is not far off from buying lotto scratchers to fund it.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> A good argument against pay to play is there’s a lot of kids that fall through the cracks because their family doesn’t have the wealth or flexibility with work to support their joining a travel team. In OC you have a lot of potential athletes that start out in rec soccer and drop out. Yeah, some are recruited and get a free ride via scholarships. But most, absolutely not. Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, little Mia goes straight to the baby Blues, pays for years of private training, has the family support and a head start to see whether she’s got enough talent to stay with the rest of the girls. The girl with two seasons of rec dropped out to do something else because she was not developed to the point where her potential could be seen. She missed out. The competition missed out on facing her. The National teams ultimately missed out.


Ok, I hear this argument again and again: Some talented kids fall through the cracks because their parents can't pay/afford. 
The question is who will pay for those kids? Do you have a suggestion/solution?
I only know one great example:
Sheriffs Fútbol Club, Soccer, California - 100% Cost-free club in undeserved communities but, of course, it's not enough to cover all kids.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> Ok, I hear this argument again and again: *Some talented kids fall through the cracks because their parents can't pay/afford.*
> The question is* who will pay for those kids?* Do you have a suggestion/solution?
> I only know one great example:
> Sheriffs Fútbol Club, Soccer, California - 100% Cost-free club in undeserved communities but, of course, it's not enough to cover all kids.


Is that Sheriffs Joe's Academy?  I know the  purpose for the GDA was to be a fully funded operation.  Only a few clubs offered freebies in soccer.  The best players should never have to pay imo.


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Yea.. next time you are at practice or a tournament look around.  Count the number of Escalades, Teslas, Volvos and Benzes in the parking lot vs 10yr old Camrys and F150s.  Club soccer is not a working man's sport here it's upper middle class.  When you say "peer group" that is who you mean.  You can take an average athlete and with enough training and effort they will beat the natural but give the same resources to the natural and its not close.   As far as who pays for it.. in both South America and Europe it is a combination of the government and the clubs.  The government or club provides the fields and the clubs recruit good players and don't charge to develop them as they make the money when they sell.  Hopefully the new MLSNEXT program finally does that for the boys here.  Don't think there is enough money in NWSL here to subsidize the girls.


Baby Blues teams have been using a small nearby park where usually rec teams can be found (except for this year). It’s a parade of Escalades and Full size Luxury SUVs!


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

notintheface said:


> If, as a parent, you do not have a backup plan for your kid -- learn your computer science, kids -- then you need a backup plan, immediately. Getting your kid into college on an athletic scholarship is already a crapshoot and now it's going to be 100x worse. Maybe instead of kicking the ball around four times a week, you spend one of those times working with your kid on writing some code.


Why is the assumption here that every family who pays $$$ for their kids to play soccer only counting on a soccer scholarship to fund a college education? On my son team I'd say 80% of players are very good students. I think if not 100% parents but 95% understand that chances to get soccer scholarship is between 0.001 to 0.5. I pay because I see my son loves soccer and can compete on high level. He asks me to drive him 30-40 minutes before practice starts. So, I pay while I can.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Is that Sheriffs Joe's Academy?  I know the  purpose for the GDA was to be a fully funded operation.  Only a few clubs offered freebies in soccer.  The best players should never have to pay imo.


Agree with* best players should never have to pay. *
The question is who should pay? The government, non-profit org, some corporate,  taxing the neighborhood where the club is located, your neighbor? Who?


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## whatithink (Sep 14, 2020)

IMV, on the boys side, if you are in an elite program and paying, then your kid is very unlikely to make it and while good, is really there to pay for the kids who are playing for free on your team, who the coaches do think will make it.


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## pokergod (Sep 14, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> counting on a soccer scholarship to fund a college education is not far off from buying lotto scratchers to fund it.


I agree, but do the many who pay to play agree?


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> Agree with* best players should never have to pay. *
> The question is who should pay? The government, non-profit org, some corporate,  taxing the neighborhood where the club is located, your neighbor? Who?


We need a pyramid of success in soccer.  I wont hash out the last three years, but we truly need a top tier system that has no politics. Identify the best of the best and then the rest can play for college or some can play college and job pro later. Nothing wrong with that.


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## tjinaz (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> We need a pyramid of success in soccer.  I wont hash out the last three years, but we truly need a top tier system that has no politics. Identify the best of the best and then the rest can play for college or some can play college and job pro later. Nothing wrong with that.


Ha... good concept but if we can't even do that with college admissions you think soccer has a chance?


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

whatithink said:


> IMV, on the boys side, if you are in an elite program and paying, then your kid is very unlikely to make it and while good, is really there to pay for the kids who are playing for free on your team, who the coaches do think will make it.


Sorry, can not agree with your opinion. Yes, in theory, you might partially subsidies some players on your team due the paying your fee in full. But if you think that club makes selection for the team based who can pay and then select a player who can play is totally wrong. It's coming from a notion that reach (what is each) can't play and can't compete. IMV, it's very wrong opinion.


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## SFR (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> no politics


LOL


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> What a bunch of crap you just wrote. If she dropped out then she didn't like to play soccer. It wasn't meant to be. You can't force it on kids.


Plenty of kids drop because dad can't take off work to drive to practice.  Or because the kid is failing classes and cant afford the time spent in the car to drive 35 min to the field.

Might have nothing to do with what the kid likes.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Ha... good concept but if we can't even do that with college admissions you think soccer has a chance?


I actually do think soccer has a chance.  Soccer is a beautiful game for all to play.  It's just that not all can play at the same level and that should be ok.  Let's give soccer a chance to heal the world


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

If you opt out of pay to play, say for financial reasons, your kid could still play rec soccer, not necessarily drop out. After a few years, what are the chances they develop as good as Club Kid? No, they’ll be way behind.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> sure that's a fair statement but then I got back to my point. Where there is a will there is a way. 3000 bucks, get yourself an extra part time job and you can save that money over a few months. No excuses, if I couldn't afford it and I believed my daughter had the potential and enthusiasm to want to be part of a top club. I would make it happen. Success in life requires sacrifice.


Or cut back on BS that you dont need.  No TV, no this & that.  If you want it, go get it is my motto.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

BTW Luis, welcome back brother.  How are you feeling?  What was it like if you dont mind sharing?  I know I got it Jan 22 and it was hell.


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Or cut back on BS that you dont need.  No TV, no this & that.  If you want it, go get it is my motto.


I'm with you halfway on that.  I spend a lot of money I don't need to.  Plenty to cut for me.

But I have it pretty easy.  Not everyone does.   Plenty of people have lives that I am in no place to judge.

If someone takes a look at 35 minute weekday soccer commutes and says "no thanks", I take them at their word.  Most likely, soccer is secondary and what they want is time with family and their kid to have a better job.  

I can respect that.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> sure that's a fair statement but then I got back to my point. Where there is a will there is a way. 3000 bucks, get yourself an extra part time job and you can save that money over a few months. No excuses, if I couldn't afford it and I believed my daughter had the potential and enthusiasm to want to be part of a top club. I would make it happen. Success in life requires sacrifice.


If I was poor, the last thing I would save 3K for is club soccer.  Saving for a decent car or a home would probably be priority.  We are discussing people who have to choose bt a decent car, decent neighborhood and club soccer.  Wouldn't it be nice if parents with great athletes didn't have to choose between saving for a house or car and paying 3K a year for club soccer?  The obvious choice is a reliable car or a house to build their equity and improve their long term finances. 
Even if I had the opportunity to get an extra job bc I had grandparents helping out with the kids, I'd save that money to pay for my kid's college or make sure they don't go hungry or homeless should the economy collapse.


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## whatithink (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> Sorry, can not agree with your opinion. Yes, in theory, you might partially subsidies some players on your team due the paying your fee in full. But if you think that club makes selection for the team based who can pay and then select a player who can play is totally wrong. It's coming from a notion that reach (what is each) can't play and can't compete. IMV, it's very wrong opinion.


There's 1-3 players on the team that are the difference. They don't pay (or if its your kid, you're stupid to pay). The coach and club need them as they are the ones that are the difference between winning & losing. Coaches and clubs like winning teams/programs. Coaches & clubs like alumni players who "make it". That sells spots, that sells the club, that brings in money. 80-90% of the team is very good, but if one left, then meh ... they can be replaced relatively easily. Its the 1, 2 or 3 that can't be replaced ... and the teams with 3 are the top teams.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> well it’s a matter of opinion and personal choice. I would make the sacrifice for my daughter but only if she wanted it. if she really wanted that I would
> get the part time job. The same way I would do it to put her in a good private school. The house or any other material thing would be secondary for me. But seeing her happy is #1


How do you know your kid wouldn't be happy without club soccer if she never did club soccer? How do you know she wouldn't be happier if you had a car that worked and a place in a neighborhood without drug dealers? 

But life ....it's not as black and white as we think...there are many choices for many reasons.


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## Luis Andres (Sep 14, 2020)

Emma said:


> How do you know your kid wouldn't be happy without club soccer if she never did club soccer? How do you know she wouldn't be happier if you had a car that worked and a place in a neighborhood without drug dealers?
> 
> But life ....it's not as black and white as we think...there are many choices for many reasons.


I would never raise her to value material things over the experience of doing what she loves.  I was raised a little different. I would hope she would value & follow the ways I‘m currently teaching her to be.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> I would never raise her to value material things over the experience of doing what she loves.  I was raised a little different. I would hope she would value & follow the ways I‘m currently teaching her to be.


I don't think the security to eat/and live under a roof during economic instability or the a car that is reliable to transport you to work and school (or rec soccer) is valuing material things over experiences.  It's prioritizing needs over wants.  

Experiences are what you make of them as individuals, not anything a sport or club soccer team can give you.  What happens Luis, if for some reason, your child can no longer play soccer?  Do you think she will be unable to have wonderful life experiences without it?


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## notintheface (Sep 14, 2020)

The current unemployment rate in California is 13.7% as of July 2020. The current unemployment rate in Los Angeles county is 18.2% as of July 2020. There are a whole lot of people who aren't going to be paying that extra $3k plus kit plus gas plus hotels.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 14, 2020)

Over the past few years women soccer is picking up in South American and Europe.  

During the next women’s World Cup we will find out If the rest of the world is making it more competitive when playing against the USA team. This will tell us if our way is better or worse. I believe European teams are getting better and they will surpass the USA in terms of quality. We shall see if pay to play will maintain USA as the best team in the world by a good distance to the rest.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> well if she no longer could play due to an injury of some sort that put her out for good then she wouldn’t have a choice. But at the end of the day it’s about what she enjoys and makes her happy. I know I’m tough in her now and she embraces it and  for me it’s not about burning her out like you guys may think but to teach her that if she wants to go to the next level later it will be hard work accompanied with love for what she does. It’s about teaching her the right mindset to succeed later. Will she run with it later, we’ll see it’s up to her. But getting back to the financial burden. It’s 3000 bucks and throw another 2000 for tournaments and costs. 5000 a year. That’s doable and I’m sure that if she proves herself the financial aid will also be there. Your example is a bit extreme. She don’t need to drive a brand new car. There are plenty of cheap cars out there too. So if she drives a junker for a few years and gets to play the sport she loves at the highest level. My family would be happy. That’s how I see it.


You're changing the subject on me.  I'm not talking about her future bc that's a huge unknown even if she loves the game now.  We're discussing whether it's worth it for parents who don't have a reliable car or live in a safe neighborhood to use 3K towards club soccer versus using it towards a reliable car to drive the kids to school and get themselves to work (to get paid).  We're not talking about a fancy car vs a reliable Toyota.  I never said anything about fancy things, just reliable and safe.  Would you give up a reliable car, shelter and food security for club soccer? 

We're not talking about what car your daughter will drive in the future, we're talking about what car would you be driving right now to drive her to school and get yourself or your wife to work.  If your car breaks down every other day bc you couldn't afford to fix it or get a more reliable care-would it even be worth it to put your kid in club soccer when you can't even reliably take her to club soccer practice or tourneys?


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

Part of the problem with 5k per year is that our kids aren't playing the best of the best.  They are playing the best of the wealthy.

If you want to play the best of the best, we should create all-star days for the top 20 kids in each age group.

A field, a ball, and older siblings or JuCo players as referees.  But no 5k per year in fees and hotels.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> well if she no longer could play due to an injury of some sort that put her out for good then she wouldn’t have a choice. But at the end of the day it’s about what she enjoys and makes her happy. I know I’m tough on her now and she embraces it and  for me it’s not about burning her out like you guys may think but to teach her that if she wants to go to the next level later it will be hard work accompanied with love for what she does. It’s about teaching her the right mindset to succeed later. Will she run with it later, we’ll see it’s up to her. But getting back to the financial burden. It’s 3000 bucks and throw another 2000 for tournaments and costs. 5000 a year. That’s doable and I’m sure that if she proves herself the financial aid will also be there. Your example is a bit extreme. She don’t need to drive a brand new car. There are plenty of cheap cars out there too. So if she drives a junker for a few years and gets to play the sport she loves at the highest level. My family would be happy. That’s how I would see it.


The freedom to choose is what makes this the greatest country ever   If you want to keep the $400 or so for yourself ((parties, drinks, $650 car payment and all the others goodies)) and not for your kids soccer dream, then keep it.  However, if you got a goat on your hands and she has to play the game she so loves, then daddy needs to step up.  If goat is really good, then free is always there.  If you dont want a club controlling you, then you should pay.  I would like to see where the state and gov pcik up the tab for the dreamers who cant afford it.  This is so in the realm of life and we need to act as if today is the last day.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Oh no, now what?  Have you ever had that barrier in life Luis or anyone reading this soccer stuff?  Too small?  Too poor? too  Dumb dumb?  What would you do @Luis Andres to get pass this freaking boulder?

Oh well, no soccer?  Go play video games and kick against the wall.?  By the way, stop complaining.  It's just soccer.  Find a sport that's freeeeeeeeeeeee


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> I personally would do it and take the risk. I’ve driven a junker before that had all sorts of problem but made it work. I can’t speak for anyone else.


You're quite the gambler.  I might gamble on the junk car but probably would have a hard time with the food and shelter thing


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## Luis Andres (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Oh no, now what?  Have you ever had that barrier in life Luis or anyone reading this soccer stuff?  Too small?  Too poor? too  Dumb dumb?  What would you do @Luis Andres to get pass this freaking boulder?
> View attachment 9036
> Oh well, no soccer?  Go play video games and kick against the wall.?  By the way, stop complaining.  It's just soccer.  Find a sport that's freeeeeeeeeeeee


you tempting me huh... lol. You know I’m crazy enough to try to make it happen and find the way. I don’t believe in failure or giving up without trying to make it happen


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> you tempting me huh... lol. You know I’m crazy enough to try to make it happen and find the way. I don’t believe in failure or giving up without trying to make it happen


Plus, the joy on the goats face after playing.  it's tru goat magic and if it's not there, then by all means, get a nice car and stay home and study......lol!!!!
Let's get real.  i would rather drive a junker and go to jiffy lube and ride my tires until their bald to see that joy on her face.  I guess I could drive around in style and smile my way around town in a nice ride and put a smile on my face only.  Choice and priority for fun in life


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> when do you ever see the Hispanic guy that came over here with no papers and does not speak English begging? He sells flowers and oranges off the freeway exit and finds a way to make it happen and be happy


Yes, but he's rarely the one able to pay 3K for club soccer.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

notintheface said:


> If, as a parent, you do not have a backup plan for your kid -- learn your computer science, kids -- then you need a backup plan, immediately. Getting your kid into college on an athletic scholarship is already a crapshoot and now it's going to be 100x worse. Maybe instead of kicking the ball around four times a week, you spend one of those times working with your kid on writing some code.


My DD knows that school will always come first. Unfortunately, she had a coach that flat out said "If you have to miss practice for homework, you shouldn't be playing soccer." Let alone the player he told this to barely ever missed! It was a situation of finals, projects, etc.


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## tjinaz (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> My DD knows that school will always come first. Unfortunately, she had a coach that flat out said "If you have to miss practice for homework, you shouldn't be playing soccer." Let alone the player he told this to barely ever missed! It was a situation of finals, projects, etc.


Yea this coach should be fired.  Unless you are in a Pro Academy that has teachers on site .. the priority should always be school first, then Family .. then maybe soccer.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Yea this coach should be fired.  Unless you are in a Pro Academy that has teachers on site .. the priority should always be school first, then Family .. then maybe soccer.


Agreed. His comments actually caused quite a negative ripple effect. You had middle school girls staying up until 11 and 12 o'clock at night on a school night because they were too afraid to miss practice, but yet they still wanted to get all of their homework done. One of the many reasons we are no longer with that club!


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Agreed. His comments actually caused quite a negative ripple effect. You had middle school girls staying up until 11 and 12 o'clock at night on a school night because they were too afraid to miss practice, but yet they still wanted to get all of their homework done. One of the many reasons we are no longer with that club!


Practice is 1.5 hours. I wonder what these girls are doing the rest of the afternoon/evening.


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Agreed. His comments actually caused quite a negative ripple effect. You had middle school girls staying up until 11 and 12 o'clock at night on a school night because they were too afraid to miss practice, but yet they still wanted to get all of their homework done. One of the many reasons we are no longer with that club!


Good luck handling college soccer and school at the same time.


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## Luis Andres (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Practice is 1.5 hours. I wonder what these girls are doing the rest of the afternoon/evening.


All these dudes do is complain. That’s why their kids don’t get far in the sport.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Agreed. His comments actually caused quite a negative ripple effect. You had middle school girls staying up until 11 and 12 o'clock at night on a school night because they were too afraid to miss practice, but yet they still wanted to get all of their homework done. One of the many reasons we are no longer with that club!


I told my kids they dont have to go to college ever since they were born.  Pro is always an option if you work hard at your pro craft.  Kobe did it.  Mike Trout did it.  Messi did it and so did all the other greats.  However, I also told them all the facts if you have a degree and all that.  My dd just wanted to play soccer when she was 12-14.  Just soccer.  Too early pushing college on 7th graders.  ECNL is a great league for 9th graders and olders.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Good luck handling college soccer and school at the same time.


That's assuming she plays college soccer. I'd rather her go into college for grades. Soccer will not sustain her for life. Just my .2.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Good luck handling college soccer and school at the same time.


Thanks! I'll be sure to tell her you wish her nothing but the best, as I do for you DD/DS.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 14, 2020)

Emma said:


> Yes, but he's rarely the one able to pay 3K for club soccer.


I was once a co team  manager for a group of 2003 boys.  My son was in the team because he had some skill but we had the money.  These Latino boys were in the team because Pats Partially funded most of them.  The parents couldn’t afford more than $800 per season.  A few of us parents ended paying more than our share to help out.  

Some of these  kids made it to the pats academy but the Travel distance and time Off work that it took for parents to drive was too much. 
Some couldn’t make it to games outside of SoCal due to travel expenses. We would pay for a couple of hotel rooms and put 6 in a room. Lol.

This flight 1 team beat well funded discovery 1 teams in the area.  Unfortunately this team didn’t have the money to pay for $1k college scout tournaments or other elite events.  My son dropped out because he couldn’t hang with this talent. There are so many kids out there that just don’t have the resources.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.


How do you think these kids become goats and get offered scholarships?  It comes thru training and hard work first.  Which cost money or parental time away from work (also monetary).   I've seen plenty of very fast, athletic, coordinated kids, stellar at 7 and 8 years old, get completely lost in a 9 v 9 and 11 v 11 game because they didn't have the same amount of training or parental commitment due to work or financial limits.

I've seen parents put kids in clubs on a scholarship and still can't get their kids to practice bc no one on the team lives nearby to drive to the top clubs and the kids end up dropping club soccer.

Hallie Mace is a GOAT and her parents were not able to put her in Eagles until her senior year in high school.  Lucky for them, they were financially well off enough to put her in a local cheap club to develop.  She doesn't quite have the foot skills some of the Goats have bc she wasn't able to develop it at a young age.  Imagine if she could afford to develop those foot skills at an earlier age, how much better she would even be today.

I've seen plenty of parents get surprised when their 10 year old goat looks like a donkey at 17 when a multi sport, fully developed athlete like


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## Copa9 (Sep 14, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I've heard from several ECNL coaches that the Great Park of Irvine is a great spot to hold practices because most of the kids with money are located in South OC.    One thing is the fee and the other the travel cost.   Not too many parents have the finances to take their kids to play in Utah, Las Vegas, AZ, every other weekend. Then you add trips to the East Coast in the summer.
> 
> Why not keep the best players at Flight 1 and have them play against each other every weekend locally.  You can have an All Star team that gets to practice every other week and they get to travel in the summer for a couple of tournaments.
> 
> ...


Didn't Alex Morgan play for a time with WCFC?


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## Copa9 (Sep 14, 2020)

SFR said:


> Agree with* best players should never have to pay. *
> The question is who should pay? The government, non-profit org, some corporate,  taxing the neighborhood where the club is located, your neighbor? Who?


Also, I have a talented volley ball player but can't afford the cost of club and travel, who should pay?


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## jimlewis (Sep 14, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Also, I have a talented volley ball player but can't afford the cost of club and travel, who should pay?


your third employer, have you not paid attention?


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

Emma said:


> How do you think these kids become goats and get offered scholarships?  It comes thru training and hard work first.  Which cost money or parental time away from work (also monetary).   I've seen plenty of very fast, athletic, coordinated kids, stellar at 7 and 8 years old, get completely lost in a 9 v 9 and 11 v 11 game because they didn't have the same amount of training or parental commitment due to work or financial limits.
> 
> I've seen parents put kids in clubs on a scholarship and still can't get their kids to practice bc no one on the team lives nearby to drive to the top clubs and the kids end up dropping club soccer.
> 
> ...


I get it. But now you’re saying “what could have been if they had the training.” That’s true for many things, not just soccer. The point is none of these players deserve a free ride now, and that’s that.


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

jimlewis said:


> your third employer, have you not paid attention?


How about saying the truth. She’s talented just like 1000’s of other kids. But she’s not a GOAT. Only GOAT’s get free rides.


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## Copa9 (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Practice is 1.5 hours. I wonder what these girls are doing the rest of the afternoon/evening.


Half hour there, half hour home, it now becomes 2.5 hours. If your kid is doing it right, they have five classes that have homework, some AP classes, some Honors and you have a lot of homework. Add in dinner and a shower and you have very little free time if any. That is what they are doing.


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Half hour there, half hour home, it now becomes 2.5 hours. If your kid is doing it right, they have five classes that have homework, some AP classes, some Honors and you have a lot of homework. Add in dinner and a shower and you have very little free time if any. That is what they are doing.


I wish I could tell you what I go through. But I wont. It’s a matter of priorities and if you REALLY want it. However, I respect your point of view and I truly do get it. Just saying, some people travel WAY MORE than you do, as well as having smart children taking Honors and/or AP courses.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Half hour there, half hour home, it now becomes 2.5 hours. If your kid is doing it right, they have five classes that have homework, some AP classes, some Honors and you have a lot of homework. Add in dinner and a shower and you have very little free time if any. That is what they are doing.


Yes, all of this. Plus her school day didn't even end until 3:40. I just felt like he had already made up his mind, so that's fine.


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## Glitterhater (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> I wish I could tell you what I go through. But I wont. It’s a matter of priorities and if you REALLY want it. However, I respect your point of view and I truly do get it. Just saying, some people travel WAY MORE than you do, as well as having smart children taking Honors and/or AP courses.


Seriously, I'm not just BS'ing, I'm sorry that you have to go through alot to get your DD/DS to their sport. I'm sure they are grateful! All our kids better appreciate us, lol


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Half hour there, half hour home, it now becomes 2.5 hours. If your kid is doing it right, they have five classes that have homework, some AP classes, some Honors and you have a lot of homework. Add in dinner and a shower and you have very little free time if any. That is what they are doing.


All this just made me feel sick in my head.  None of the greats had to also take BS AP classes and all this and that to be a great soccer player.  Only for the girls do we heap all this crap on them.  Let them live their life a little for goodness snakes.  Ok, that's me just keeping it real with all of you.


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> My DD knows that school will always come first. Unfortunately, she had a coach that flat out said "If you have to miss practice for homework, you shouldn't be playing soccer." Let alone the player he told this to barely ever missed! It was a situation of finals, projects, etc.


If our coach said to put soccer before homework, he'd lose half his team.


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## Emma (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> I get it. But now you’re saying “what could have been if they had the training.” That’s true for many things, not just soccer. The point is none of these players deserve a free ride now, and that’s that.


I don't think you were addressing whether someone *deserves *training for free.  You were addressing whether finance kept any "potential" goats out of the game.  I was pointing out that finance does keep great players out and prevents them from reaching their full potential. 

This is what you said: "If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training."

As to the deserving...yes, currently, only the pay to play kids are deserving of becoming GOATS or reaching full potentials because we don't have a centralized system that will help kids develop without all the extra costs.  A free and serious afterschool sports program starting in elementary school might close this gap and make high school soccer more exciting too. It would probably prevent diabetes and reduce the cost of health care for us too.


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## Giesbock (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.


No such thing as a 7 year old that’s Greatest of all time.  Throwing around a ridiculous superlative!


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> No such thing as a 7 year old that’s Greatest of all time.  Throwing around a ridiculous superlative!


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## Giesbock (Sep 14, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.





Soccerhelper said:


>


yeah that is cool vintage video of The GOAT.  But he wasn’t that at age 7.  He became that with intense, singular focus over years.

There are 7 year olds all over the US in rec leagues that do that every time they step on the field.  They are not GOATs is all I’m saying.


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

Not sure about this one, not all club teams have "Free Best Player funds"  
I can say that our team is beyond stacked and Im positive that everyone pays, there may be some help for one family but thats their thing not mine to worry about.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 14, 2020)

46n2 said:


> Not sure about this one, not all club teams have "Free Best Player funds"
> I can say that our team is beyond stacked and Im positive that everyone pays, there may be some help for one family but thats their thing not mine to worry about.


I agree.  Each club is different and some coaches have a few scholarships available.  The top youth boys never pay a dime.


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Agreed. His comments actually caused quite a negative ripple effect. You had middle school girls staying up until 11 and 12 o'clock at night on a school night because they were too afraid to miss practice, but yet they still wanted to get all of their homework done. One of the many reasons we are no longer with that club!


on my dear , homework to 1-2 am is a normal thing, please don't blame soccer there.....there is plenty of hours to burn after school.


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## dad4 (Sep 14, 2020)

46n2 said:


> on my dear , homework to 1-2 am is a normal thing, please don't blame soccer there.....there is plenty of hours to burn after school.


1-2 am for _middle_ school homework?  That's not normal.  

Middle school homework shouldn't take more than 2 hours, even at a highly academic school.


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I agree.  Each club is different and some coaches have a few scholarships available.  The top youth boys never pay a dime.


Girls and  boys doesn't matter , but thats a slippery slope.  

Some clubs make you pay for just the shorts , they they own you, no extra outside activities, if coach hears you playing in a indoor league or pickup over the weekend, you don't get to play next game.  You see very quickly have fast they drop your kid.  Please .....they feel this overwhelming urge to make your kids feel like they did something bad.  

Theres plenty of parent that are glad to pay with top seeded kids on a team, just so they can have the liberty to do what they want.


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## Giesbock (Sep 14, 2020)

Granted, Messi had gifts of foot speed, agility, probably had a soccer ball with him in his crib...  
the real discussion (i think) is whether there are awesome raw talented kids who get drowned out by richer kids who can afford to go on with their club careers without having to apply for financial aid.  No doubt that happens, maybe even more frequently in affluent OC.  

That’s why I’ve said before that the right path might be to chuck all the club gear, prestige, expensive trips across the country, and instead gather a few like minded families to pay a trainer/coach to focus on the fundamental skills.  Cheap compared to the club route and player comes out of it ready to rumble.


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## 46n2 (Sep 14, 2020)

dad4 said:


> 1-2 am for _middle_ school homework?  That's not normal.
> 
> Middle school homework shouldn't take more than 2 hours, even at a highly academic school.


High school with social life, work, sports, homework is done late late at night, quite normal in my city.


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## Giesbock (Sep 14, 2020)

Granted, Messi had gifts of foot speed, agility, probably had a soccer ball with him in his crib...  
the real discussion (i think) is whether there are awesome raw talented kids who get drowned out by richer kids who can afford to go on with their club careers without having to apply for financial aid.  No doubt that happens, maybe even more frequently in affluent OC.  

That’s why I’ve said before that the right path might be to chuck all the club gear, prestige, expensive trips across the country, and instead gather a few like minded families to pay a trainer/coach to focus on the fundamental skills.  Cheap compared to the club route and player comes out of it ready to rumble.


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## notintheface (Sep 14, 2020)

Ok, it only took 6 pages to start comparing kids to Messi, that's an improvement over the last time this discussion came around.

Your kid is not Messi. Your kid is not going to be Messi. Your kid is going to be unbelievably lucky to be Johan Gomez or Madison Perez. Do not pressure your kid into a work ethic that will only serve to burn him or her out. Let them train, definitely, but also let them experience life. Anyone here who hasn't read the story of Todd Marinovich should read up on what a parent can mistakenly wind up creating.


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## Anon9 (Sep 14, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Ok, it only took 6 pages to start comparing kids to Messi, that's an improvement over the last time this discussion came around.
> 
> Your kid is not Messi. Your kid is not going to be Messi. Your kid is going to be unbelievably lucky to be Johan Gomez or Madison Perez. Do not pressure your kid into a work ethic that will only serve to burn him or her out. Let them train, definitely, but also let them experience life. Anyone here who hasn't read the story of Todd Marinovich should read up on what a parent can mistakenly wind up creating.


Or read Cristiano Ronaldo’s story and how he trained 25 hours a week.


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## Messi>CR7 (Sep 14, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> Granted, Messi had gifts of foot speed, agility, probably had a soccer ball with him in his crib...
> the real discussion (i think) is whether there are awesome raw talented kids who get drowned out by richer kids who can afford to go on with their club careers without having to apply for financial aid.  No doubt that happens, maybe even more frequently in affluent OC.
> 
> That’s why I’ve said before that the right path might be to chuck all the club gear, prestige, expensive trips across the country, and instead gather a few like minded families to pay a trainer/coach to focus on the fundamental skills.  Cheap compared to the club route and player comes out of it ready to rumble.


Messi would not have turned into the GOAT if he were born in the US.  No club would have paid for his HGH treatment when he was young.  Imagine that, a soccer world without Messi.

I live in OC, the bubble inside the bubble as far as club soccer goes.  But I know enough people to know it's a real struggle for some to meet the financial/time commitment of club soccer.  A friend's U11 or U12 team in LA never had enough money for tournaments.  In a few instances, my friend and one other parent paid for the tournament for the entire team just so all the kids can play.  The best player on my DD's U11 team always had to leave the practice 25 minutes earlier so her mom could go to her night shift.

Regarding your last comment, I'm 100% sure my kids would lose interest very quickly if they have to train for a year without the possibility of playing in a real 11v11 match.


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## paytoplay (Sep 14, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> I’m not sure if I’m buying the argument that the rich kid has that much of an advantage over the poor kid. What about all those poor black kids that come from the ghetto and end up being the top basketball players or football players in the USA. How are they doing it?


You don’t understand sports very well. To get to the top in basketball you need physical size and skills. The skills are taught for free every time you step on the court. Doesn’t cost money to find a game and good competition. Soccer in this country is organized and the only good competition is behind a locked gate: the pay to play system.


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## dad4 (Sep 15, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> I’m not sure if I’m buying the argument that the rich kid has that much of an advantage over the poor kid. What about all those poor black kids that come from the ghetto and end up being the top basketball players or football players in the USA. How are they doing it?


Basketball in cities includes a lot of free pickup games.  NJB is far cheaper than club soccer.  Even AAU in low income cities costs less than half what ECNL does.  ( You can pay big money for AAU if you want, but there are plenty of Oakland or LA teams that play local and cost less.)

Football is done through the schools.  It is awful for school budgets, but free or near free to the families. 

In short, those sports charge less per kid for access to top level games.


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## SoccerEnvy (Sep 15, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> A good argument against pay to play is there’s a lot of talented kids that fall through the cracks because their family doesn’t have the wealth or flexibility with work to support their joining a travel team. In OC you have a lot of potential athletes that start out in rec soccer and drop out. Yeah, some are recruited and get a free ride via scholarships. But most, absolutely not. Meanwhile, on the other side of the street, little Mia goes straight to the baby Blues, pays for years of private training, has the family support and a head start to see whether she’s got enough talent to stay with the rest of the girls. The girl with two seasons of rec dropped out to do something else because she was not developed to the point where her potential could be seen. She missed out. The competition missed out on facing her. The National teams ultimately missed out.


I get it...but in your scenario, who do you think should be paying for the talented but low resource player? As it is, the clubs that we have been a part of have all had financial programs that for at least half of the fees, sometimes another fund for travel. 

$350 a month is a significant amount especially for families who are just making ends meet. But it’s pricing is not unreasonable when you consider 3 practices a week, 1-2 games a weekend (preCovid), field rental, professional coaching and all the other expenses.

And don’t MLS teams fund their “academy” teams? So there is a “no pay to play” option  but it is for such a small group of players.


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## dad4 (Sep 15, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> ok some valid points that overall soccer is a bit more expensive than the other sports which have a much much bigger athlete talent pool in this country. So it makes it tougher for an average player that is poor to succeed. But if you are poor and you are a special athlete with the right work ethic the doors will be open for you and that’s my point.


Depends on where you are.  I’m up in Nor Cal.  There are no top level soccer clubs in Oakland/ east bay.   None.  

The closest is in Danville, 20 miles away through a tunnel.  Or Pleasanton, over a pass.  Or Marin, over a toll bridge.

If your family has no car or one car, you are not getting to practice.  

It doesn’t matter that any of thise three clubs would be happy to open the door to you.  You can’t get to the door.

Basketball is another story.  Pickup games after school all over the place, and they are free.  AAU is closer, and those teams are just as willing to make it work for a top basketball player.  So top athletes in Oakland play hoops.


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## Chalklines (Sep 15, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Ok, it only took 6 pages to start comparing kids to Messi, that's an improvement over the last time this discussion came around.
> 
> Your kid is not Messi. Your kid is not going to be Messi. Your kid is going to be unbelievably lucky to be Johan Gomez or Madison Perez. Do not pressure your kid into a work ethic that will only serve to burn him or her out. Let them train, definitely, but also let them experience life. Anyone here who hasn't read the story of Todd Marinovich should read up on what a parent can mistakenly wind up creating.


But Todd made. Formula worked until the drungs


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 15, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> ok some valid points that overall soccer is a bit more expensive than the other sports which have a much much bigger athlete talent pool in this country. So it makes it tougher for an average player that is poor to succeed. But if you are poor and you are a special athlete with the right work ethic the doors will be open for you and that’s my point.


High school basketball is huge and scours will find the best players.   That’s not the same for soccer because the market has created these academy programs so scouts don’t go to high school games.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> Would you mind explaining what AYSO is? I've seen that mentioned but am not at all familiar with it.


AYSO expanded to AZ last year.  This year they are fielding quality teams in the advanced leagues.  They are doing great things in communities that will never participate in our esteemed letter leagues. They are certainly focused on rec league but have teams that are competitive within the higher levels of state league.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Luis Andres said:


> I’m not sure if I’m buying the argument that the rich kid has that much of an advantage over the poor kid. What about all those poor black kids that come from the ghetto and end up being the top basketball players or football players in the USA. How are they doing it?


It's called Nike and Adidas sponsored teams for AAU basketball.  No/low cost, very competitive and targeted recruiting in known areas of basketball talent.  Not every AAU team is fully sponsored, most aren't.  AAU is like the wild wild west.  Pay a ton of money at times with zero exposure to anyone.  The fully sponsored clubs have a longer reach and get the pick of the litter within their region.  AAU is not a loved organization.  Football isn't a high cost sport.  College coaches are regionally focused and know where to look and are tied to the local HS coaching network.  Apples to oranges when comparing how Basketball/Football players are recruited VS soccer players in this country.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 15, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> If your child is a GOAT, they won’t need to be paying $3k a year. Any coach would take a GOAT and give them a scholarship. Find them a ride to practice, games, etc. There is truly no excuse. The only players being left out are the ones not good enough. This is all a myth. I challenge any of you to find me a true GOAT, right now, that is not playing because the parents can’t afford it. I know players that were GOATS at U8, were the fastest and biggest, and they never got the training and are no longer playing. Players drop off and become obsolete, doesn’t mean they were too poor to afford good training.


On the surface this is 100% true.  I think it's naive to think that there aren't large pockets of kids who play soccer (especially in socal) who  have no idea that there are these leagues that sprinkle fairy dust on you and send you off to college.   Let's be honest, the family down the street who has the "goat" but is unable to play in _____ league because they are a family of 6 with other expenses is different from the family outside of the bubble where the parents are busting their collective ass just to get food on the table.  Most coaches aren't going to these areas to recruit, some will, most won't.

There is a club in AZ named Tuzos.  They are affiliated with the Mexican League, play in the state league and have teams in what's called the Bimbolito League.  Every year they are one of the best, if not the best boys club in the valley.  Every year their players are poached, or entire teams are poached, with their coaches.  The next year they again field some of the best boys teams in the valley.  They have an endless supply of U littles.  Their costs are very low to play.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 15, 2020)

Financial restriction arguments will always be there in a pay-to-play sport but like many posters have said; if you are a good player you will usually find opportunities, whether or not you have the financial means.

The key to being a good young player has very little to do with coaching or money. It is about early engagement with a soccer ball from a young age. Notice I didn’t say specialization, that’s a different thing; early engagement just means being exposed to a soccer ball and basic fundamentals at a young age. Tom Byer (many of you likely have heard of him) talks about it at length and is the biggest proponent of early technical development via engagement with the ball. This is down to parents, not coaches.

If you have a young kid and want them to enjoy the game and be competent, have them learn the fundamentals. If you want to learn more about how to do this, look up Tom Byer or buy his ‘Football starts at home’ book.

I talked to my twin brother back in England about this when my nephew was born. He’s now 7 and for the past 2 years he’s worked on the basics of dribbling, passing and shooting (he does other sports but enjoys soccer so plays it more often). Because of this engagement at an early age, he passes, dribbles and strikes the ball with power, precision and the kind of technique you would expect from a much older kid. This now gives him an advantage entering competitive play with other kids; it’s just about having that base.

You pick up the technical skills and fundamentals from early engagement and repetition; this gives you a very strong foundation and then you can learn the game as you get older with the help of a coach (and of course by playing pickup soccer).

I’ve ranted long enough. Hopefully you get the point. Money doesn’t have to be a limiting factor.


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## Anon9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Paul Spacey said:


> Financial restriction arguments will always be there in a pay-to-play sport but like many posters have said; if you are a good player you will usually find opportunities, whether or not you have the financial means.
> 
> The key to being a good young player has very little to do with coaching or money. It is about early engagement with a soccer ball from a young age. Notice I didn’t say specialization, that’s a different thing; early engagement just means being exposed to a soccer ball and basic fundamentals at a young age. Tom Byer (many of you likely have heard of him) talks about it at length and is the biggest proponent of early technical development via engagement with the ball. This is down to parents, not coaches.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your insight. All of this that you mentioned with your nephew cost.......$0. Exactly what @Luis Andres has been saying. If you really want it, you make it happen. 
another interesting thing about the AZ Tuzos is if they’re being poached, that means they are being recruited to play at a higher level and/or letters league. Once again proving that regardless of income, top clubs will always recruit the top players.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Thank you for your insight. All of this that you mentioned with your nephew cost.......$0. Exactly what @Luis Andres has been saying. If you really want it, you make it happen.
> another interesting thing about the AZ Tuzos is if they’re being poached, that means they are being recruited to play at a higher level and/or letters league. Once again proving that regardless of income, top clubs will always recruit the top players.


No doubt.  Tuzos does the early development, then bigger clubs ride that through the older years.  The bigger clubs know where to go to recruit.  For this example, it's only the boys side.  Interestingly enough, even with the poaching, the older teams continue to be competitive, with many of the opinion that they are still the better boys teams in the valley.  There is also a sense of loyalty in that community.  They are fun to watch.  If you are ever in AZ during soccer season, check out the FBSL games at Fear Farm on the west side.  Fun to watch.  





__





						HOME | Tuzos Phoenix Soccer
					






					www.tuzosphoenix.com


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## Woobie06 (Sep 15, 2020)

All sports are pay to play.  Somebody always pays whether the parent, school, sponsor, pro club, etc.  Nothing is free.  Does the cost justify the benefit, is the juice worth the squeeze for the person/entity paying?  For most, the parent pays.  That’s how most clubs are set-up.  There are some ways to solve this for the future, fund-raise and generate endowments for clubs. It’s the university model for some academic and athletic programs, even to help pay for some coaches.  The investment base over time covers fees and costs for the clubs. It’s a long term play.  Crossfire in WA does something like this and covers a lot of costs for their top teams.  The club leaderships needs to think differently.  This model won’t help our kids, but could pave the way for the future.  Its still pay to play, just a different spin.

Minimum MLS Salary is $65k, and NWSL is $20K...last place I would place my bet today for my kid.  Hopefully, the effort put into this helps DD get into the right school she might not have gotten into otherwise, and provide the opportunity to play in college whatever the post-Covid landscape looks like.

Think about it...10 years pro (no business or real world experience for most), what do you do when your done? Coach?  Enter the job force with kids 10 years younger.  Your behind you peers big time...with a degree in the right major you will crush those minimums going right into the workplace.

Sports for the 99.9% that won’t sniff playing pro...is a hobby, like any other. It keeps kids active, out of trouble, generates a social circle (for both kids and family), teaches commitment, teamwork, working through adversity, etc. it’s a pretty good hobby as hobby’s go. I’d also categorize it as entertainment expense to some extent. There are lots of options, pay as much or as little as your budget can take. Your call.

Equestrian, Dance, Cheer, Music, LAX, swimming...all of them have coaches and clubs that require money to pay for those resources. Should they do it for free? The money comes from somewhere. Coaching is their profession, why shouldn’t they get paid for what they do, and make what they can doing it. Don’t you want to make as much as you can working?

I don’t get all the whining about pay to play.   Sounds like some people think it’s ok for them to make money, but want to limit what they feel it should cost them for their kid to participate or what a coach should make.  It looks like many do not see the value in what they are getting from their club.  Maybe you at the wrong club if you feel this way.  Free market economy, don’t want to pay, don’t play.  YOU can pay as little or as much as you want for Johnny and Sally to play.  The truly special kids will get on the right teams regardless of their socio-economic background.  Talent usually finds a way.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> All sports are pay to play.  Somebody always pays whether the parent, school, sponsor, pro club, etc.  Nothing is free.  Does the cost justify the benefit, is the juice worth the squeeze for the person/entity paying?  For most, the parent pays.  That’s how most clubs are set-up.  There are some ways to solve this for the future, fund-raise and generate endowments for clubs. It’s the university model for some academic and athletic programs, even to help pay for some coaches.  The investment base over time covers fees and costs for the clubs. It’s a long term play.  Crossfire in WA does something like this and covers a lot of costs for their top teams.  The club leaderships needs to think differently.  This model won’t help our kids, but could pave the way for the future.  Its still pay to play, just a different spin.
> 
> Minimum MLS Salary is $65k, and NWSL is $20K...last place I would place my bet today for my kid.  Hopefully, the effort put into this helps DD get into the right school she might not have gotten into otherwise, and provide the opportunity to play in college whatever the post-Covid landscape looks like.
> 
> ...


Who is whining?  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.  The comparison is being drawn between how the rest of the world does Soccer, and Soccer american style.  This is a soccer forum full of parents who dish out plenty of money for little jonny and betty to play , whether it be for college aspirations or just gaining some life experience.  It's good to expose your kid to an experience that enables them  to contribute something positive to society later in life.  

And yes, there is an entire population of kids, just outside of your bubble, that will never see the light of day in an ECNL/GA kit because they can't afford it.  Self proclaimed high level club sports will never be free.  Smaller segments of the population will be able to afford, most won't.  That's just reality. There will be some accommodations in the form of "scholarships", but those are never in the interest of said families, they are in the interest of the club and the desire to win.  I've even seen parents pool money together to enable a player to play.  While that is great, it's not likely that they are being truly altruistic, they want to win. 

I don't know the exact salaries of our club coaches, but I'm pretty sure they are being paid as best they can be paid.  I hope they are making good money.  They've been nothing but a positive influence on my two delinquents, forcing them to make decisions on a weekly basis.


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## Emma (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> All sports are pay to play.  Somebody always pays whether the parent, school, sponsor, pro club, etc.  Nothing is free.  Does the cost justify the benefit, is the juice worth the squeeze for the person/entity paying?  For most, the parent pays.  That’s how most clubs are set-up.  There are some ways to solve this for the future, fund-raise and generate endowments for clubs. It’s the university model for some academic and athletic programs, even to help pay for some coaches.  The investment base over time covers fees and costs for the clubs. It’s a long term play.  Crossfire in WA does something like this and covers a lot of costs for their top teams.  The club leaderships needs to think differently.  This model won’t help our kids, but could pave the way for the future.  Its still pay to play, just a different spin.
> 
> Minimum MLS Salary is $65k, and NWSL is $20K...last place I would place my bet today for my kid.  Hopefully, the effort put into this helps DD get into the right school she might not have gotten into otherwise, and provide the opportunity to play in college whatever the post-Covid landscape looks like.
> 
> ...


I don't see any whining going on from people regarding paying competent coaches.  I think the discussion has been quite healthy regarding whether pay to play affects the quality of play.  I'm happy to pay because my children are getting the value for what I'm paying but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what others may not be able to afford and how that affects the game of soccer.  I think my child is missing out on some good competition/teammates bc of pay to play.  I've seen it through the years.  Pay to play, along with other factors, reduces the quality of competition within American soccer.  

The best equalizer to pay and play is a knowledgeable parent or involved family member that teaches the child soccer without fees.  We can do this for free if we have soccer experienced volunteer adults coaching at after school sports programs.   Giving back to the community through youth sports is very important to our society, in terms of reducing health care costs and providing a purpose for kids during after school hours. 

Another suggestion, clubs reaching out to local elementary schools & junior high schools in underserved communities and having their coach do after school programs for free, 1-2 hours a day?  Yes- our clubs fees will subsidize this but it helps to expand the player pool, their increasing the overall quality.  It might end up being a great recruiting tool too for the clubs and they're doing what non-profit groups should do.


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## tjinaz (Sep 15, 2020)

happy9 said:


> No doubt.  Tuzos does the early development, then bigger clubs ride that through the older years.  The bigger clubs know where to go to recruit.  For this example, it's only the boys side.  Interestingly enough, even with the poaching, the older teams continue to be competitive, with many of the opinion that they are still the better boys teams in the valley.  There is also a sense of loyalty in that community.  They are fun to watch.  If you are ever in AZ during soccer season, check out the FBSL games at Fear Farm on the west side.  Fun to watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RSL-AZ recently brought over full teams from Tuzos and simply re-badged them.  I believe they were the top 09/10 boys teams.  Not sure.  Also not sure what resources RSL will give to them other than the new spiffy uniforms.

  I honestly think this is another reason for ODP.  While it is pay to play as well it give a chance for exposure for under $100.  While its pretty much a joke in AZ due to the politics it does give players from lower level teams the ability to show what they have to upper level coaches.  I know one 07 girl that pretty much got offered a ECNL slot right on the spot after the initial pool selection.  Then her team dropped a league when she left.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> *RSL-AZ recently brought over full teams from Tuzos and simply re-badged them*.  I believe they were the top 09/10 boys teams.  Not sure.  Also not sure what resources RSL will give to them other than the new spiffy uniforms.
> 
> I honestly think this is another reason for ODP.  While it is pay to play as well it give a chance for exposure for under $100.  While its pretty much a joke in AZ due to the politics it does give players from lower level teams the ability to show what they have to upper level coaches.  I know one 07 girl that pretty much got offered a ECNL slot right on the spot after the initial pool selection.  Then her team dropped a league when she left.


SCDS did the same thing to the 06 and 07 boys a few years ago in prep to enter the DA on the boys side.  Tuzos somehow manages to reload every year.


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## Goalie1310 (Sep 15, 2020)

Our kids are not playing the best of the best , They are playing the kids that can afford it.


Luis Andres said:


> I’m not sure if I’m buying the argument that the rich kid has that much of an advantage over the poor kid. What about all those poor black kids that come from the ghetto and end up being the top basketball players or football players in the USA. How are they doing it?


From what I remember scouts go to High School Football,Basketball and Baseball games and if you are a baller you will get looks , very little money spent on the other sports now in my opinion. I grew up in time when training was done outside with the neighborhood kids no parents around we went through our own seasons playing all the big 3 sports that is the biggest difference that is why we are so good at the other 3 you play with everyone no age or size weight rules you just played no rolling around or crying allowed LOL and most of all no parents around to complain it was pure passion for playing with your crew and destroying whoever showed up. Soccer at the time was pretty much non existent At the time 80’s-90’s here in LA but that’s how they play in other countries just soccer no parents no BS . We were lucky enough to play in Spain in the Mediterranean International Cup and made it to the semifinals vs Fc Barcelona la Macia Which in my opinion are some of the best in the world in our age group B07 well what I realized is we are not ready to be as good as them because we don’t live it like they do. Talking with the parents of these amazing players this is what I learned. First most of the roster of kids on that team were not from Barcelona they were from all over the world most parents here I don’t think are ready to part with their kid at that age. 2nd they are all in , school is not talked about they are training to go pro. 3rd They train 5 days a week twice a day. 4th they don’t talk about wins they don’t break their system parents are silent on the sidelines and not coaching or complaining and let me tell you most of you are not ready for how much more physical it is over there. 5th soccer is free I could go on but I think you get the point I attached the link for the game vs Barcelona below yes we look tiny because we played a year up in that tournament . The crowd size was amazing for that age those kids are like rock stars over there.


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## SFR (Sep 15, 2020)

Goalie1310 said:


> We were lucky enough to play in Spain in the Mediterranean International Cup and made it to the semifinals


It's nice to hear what/how youth soccer was in Spain, UK, and etc.
1. But this is US. It's different here. You can't just apply blindly here from what's working there. Yes, you can take something that might be useful and try here.
2. No parents? How do you see kids getting to practices and games when there is no public transportation infrastructure in towns? Don't tell me when you were 10 years old and was living in Madrid or London you used to get on bus by yourself. You will get in so much trouble here letting your child alone on the bus if there is a bus. 
3. "They train 5 days a week twice a day" - Thank you but no thank you. We don't have here 25 different pro or semi pro divisions where you can end up playing if your goal to be a professional soccer player. Here, the best (and only one) pro league is MLS, right? The starting salary is what around 65K? Working at McDonald's almost gives you the same income without any injuries (hopefully). 
4. In Europe, parents who came to watch their kids playing are silent on the sidelines? Please!!!
5.  "soccer is free". You mean we talk here relentlessly about Pay to Play system and what could be done about it and you just say it should be free.


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## Woobie06 (Sep 15, 2020)

@Emma and @happy9 I guess we have a different definition of whining which is ok, sounds like whining to me maybe not to others.  I get that.  Sure there is healthy conversation about it.  The biggest difference between soccer in the US and the majority of the rest of the world is soccer is the #1 sport, where here it #5 behind the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL...its not even close from a revenue perspective $1.2B for MLS and $4.7B for Hockey at #4.  Its going to be a long-time before Soccer cracks the top 4.  For the 5th rated sport in this country, which we all love because we post, read, spend time here, we played or our kids play(ed), etc...soccer does not grab the attention of the masses on a day-to-day basis like the other sports (Olympics/WC/Big Tournaments are the exception), or garner the same advertising revenue as the ohers...that is why it is 5th.  Nobody is going to pump money to remove a pay-to-play system unless there is a financial return to it.  NWSL is struggling, MLS is doing well, but can't support an Academy System yet on both the Boys and Girls side, i.e. Earthquakes and LAG.  Why should they pay when the parents will?  It's all pay-to-play.  Somebody always pays.  Nothing is free.  As long as there are families that have disposable income to support a sport/activity/hobby their kids enjoy there will be organizations that will gladly take it.  

Look at the movement of players going to Europe especially on the Women's side....Lots of men's and women's players going overseas.  They do soccer better around the world because it is the top dog, soccer here is the 5th choice $$$ wise.  The women's game is picking up world wide, and the Women's EPL will be Top Dog soon.   Why are other countries better than us on the men's side?  Most of the best male athletes in the US choose other sports that are more lucrative.  They do not choose soccer, many of our best athletes do not play...ever watched Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) play soccer and fool around?  A lot of these guys could or would have been really great soccer players.  Women's side is different.  The US dominates here (now...but the world is gaining) because many of the best female athletes do choose soccer.

I love soccer, I enjoyed playing, it is a great game, fun to watch, and I enjoy watching a good match-up in the EPL, Budesliga, La Liga, Liga MX, MLS, etc....  I also enjoy watching the Cowboys (no judgement please), Mavericks, Stars, and Rangers play as those are my hometown teams.  As much as I love soccer, I will watch the the Cowboys play over all of them.  Only games/events that supersede the Cowboys game are my DD's games and events (glad DTV can record).  Soccer is not part of our culture like it is in other countries.

I guess my point is pay-to-play is not going anywhere anytime soon, it's going to be here a while.  Wishing soccer to be something it is not in this country is not going to get us far.  Improve and build on what we do have...How do you make the current pay-to-play model better?


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## Franco2020 (Sep 15, 2020)

Great discussion.  I agree with a lot of you and I agree that free is not an option in the US.  MLS and other Professional clubs should be compensating clubs that have developed players that make it Professionally.  Colleges should also pay some sort of compensation.  

I guess my initial post was more about the discount provided for Fall season by some of these clubs, insignificant when you take into account that kids are not playing and practices are a boredom fest.  Last but not least, some of these  big clubs took in Government money and their coaches were all getting unemployment checks and probably making more money than as coaches.  To add insult to injury, the majority of the clubs stayed extremely silent about refunds for the 2020 spring season (a season that never happened)..  All of the sudden, it went from... poor clubs! to greedy bastards! =-)


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## dad4 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> @Emma and @happy9 I guess we have a different definition of whining which is ok, sounds like whining to me maybe not to others.  I get that.  Sure there is healthy conversation about it.  The biggest difference between soccer in the US and the majority of the rest of the world is soccer is the #1 sport, where here it #5 behind the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL...its not even close from a revenue perspective $1.2B for MLS and $4.7B for Hockey at #4.  Its going to be a long-time before Soccer cracks the top 4.  For the 5th rated sport in this country, which we all love because we post, read, spend time here, we played or our kids play(ed), etc...soccer does not grab the attention of the masses on a day-to-day basis like the other sports (Olympics/WC/Big Tournaments are the exception), or garner the same advertising revenue as the ohers...that is why it is 5th.  Nobody is going to pump money to remove a pay-to-play system unless there is a financial return to it.  NWSL is struggling, MLS is doing well, but can't support an Academy System yet on both the Boys and Girls side, i.e. Earthquakes and LAG.  Why should they pay when the parents will?  It's all pay-to-play.  Somebody always pays.  Nothing is free.  As long as there are families that have disposable income to support a sport/activity/hobby their kids enjoy there will be organizations that will gladly take it.
> 
> Look at the movement of players going to Europe especially on the Women's side....Lots of men's and women's players going overseas.  They do soccer better around the world because it is the top dog, soccer here is the 5th choice $$$ wise.  The women's game is picking up world wide, and the Women's EPL will be Top Dog soon.   Why are other countries better than us on the men's side?  Most of the best male athletes in the US choose other sports that are more lucrative.  They do not choose soccer, many of our best athletes do not play...ever watched Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) play soccer and fool around?  A lot of these guys could or would have been really great soccer players.  Women's side is different.  The US dominates here (now...but the world is gaining) because many of the best female athletes do choose soccer.
> 
> ...


Why assume that low revenue implies pay to play?

The overlapping leagues raise costs significantly, for very little benefit.  A basic pro/rel system would reduce travel, and travel related costs, with absolutely no harm done to the quality of coaching or play.  You’d end up playing the teams near you that have similar records, just like you did back in U8.  Far better than spending money on plane tickets to play some weak sauce team you’d never talk to if they didn’t have the badge.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> @Emma and @happy9 I guess we have a different definition of whining which is ok, sounds like whining to me maybe not to others.  I get that.  Sure there is healthy conversation about it.  The biggest difference between soccer in the US and the majority of the rest of the world is soccer is the #1 sport, where here it #5 behind the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL...its not even close from a revenue perspective $1.2B for MLS and $4.7B for Hockey at #4.  Its going to be a long-time before Soccer cracks the top 4.  For the 5th rated sport in this country, which we all love because we post, read, spend time here, we played or our kids play(ed), etc...soccer does not grab the attention of the masses on a day-to-day basis like the other sports (Olympics/WC/Big Tournaments are the exception), or garner the same advertising revenue as the ohers...that is why it is 5th.  Nobody is going to pump money to remove a pay-to-play system unless there is a financial return to it.  NWSL is struggling, MLS is doing well, but can't support an Academy System yet on both the Boys and Girls side, i.e. Earthquakes and LAG.  Why should they pay when the parents will?  It's all pay-to-play.  Somebody always pays.  Nothing is free.  As long as there are families that have disposable income to support a sport/activity/hobby their kids enjoy there will be organizations that will gladly take it.
> 
> Look at the movement of players going to Europe especially on the Women's side....Lots of men's and women's players going overseas.  They do soccer better around the world because it is the top dog, soccer here is the 5th choice $$$ wise.  The women's game is picking up world wide, and the Women's EPL will be Top Dog soon.   Why are other countries better than us on the men's side?  Most of the best male athletes in the US choose other sports that are more lucrative.  They do not choose soccer, many of our best athletes do not play...ever watched Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) play soccer and fool around?  A lot of these guys could or would have been really great soccer players.  Women's side is different.  The US dominates here (now...but the world is gaining) because many of the best female athletes do choose soccer.
> 
> ...


Don't disagree with any of this.  I don't think we'll ever make the pay to play model better in regards to soccer.  We are not a soccer country and will likely never be.  Not a bad thing in my mind, just the way it is.  The pay to play model works for what it was designed to do - get to college.  This topic makes for great conversation - especially for those of you that are soccer constrained!.  

Now we can move on to arguing which pay to play league is better - The GA will eventually be the league of choice for the girls --> The experiment will pan out, the merging of DA training theory with ECNL freedom of choice (HS play in particular) will force ECNL to continue to harvest teams in an attempt to stamp out the GA.  This will eventually water down the league so much that the former DA  clubs will leave, realizing how wrong they were to so cowardly abandon ship in the first place.  

The MLS will figure out their academy system eventually, sucking all of the top talent their way.   Boys ECNL will shrivel on the vine or become the most expensive 2nd league in club sport history.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Franco2020 said:


> Great discussion.  I agree with a lot of you and I agree that free is not an option in the US.  MLS and other Professional clubs should be compensating clubs that have developed players that make it Professionally.  Colleges should also pay some sort of compensation.
> 
> I guess my initial post was more about the discount provided for Fall season by some of these clubs, insignificant when you take into account that kids are not playing and practices are a boredom fest.  Last but not least, some of these  big clubs took in Government money and their coaches were all getting unemployment checks and probably making more money than as coaches. * To add insult to injury, the majority of the clubs stayed extremely silent about refunds for the 2020 spring season (a season that never happened)..  All of the sudden, it went from... poor clubs! to greedy bastards! =-)*


I think that's more of a CA thing,  The rest of the soccer centric parts of the country are playing, and have been playing for a while.  With that said, certainly a frustration for CA, which is the soccer talent mecca of the US.  Which is why your top teams are traveling here (AZ) , under severe weather conditions, to play friendlies.  Some of you may already be on the road or double checking lodging reservations as you prepare to come here this weekend.  The Cactus Kickoff rarely (if ever) attracts top teams from anywhere.


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## Woobie06 (Sep 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Why assume that low revenue implies pay to play?
> 
> The overlapping leagues raise costs significantly, for very little benefit.  A basic pro/rel system would reduce travel, and travel related costs, with absolutely no harm done to the quality of coaching or play.  You’d end up playing the teams near you that have similar records, just like you did back in U8.  Far better than spending money on plane tickets to play some weak sauce team you’d never talk to if they didn’t have the badge.


I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing.  Its been nice having a break these past few months.

What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them.  That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.

Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this?  Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap.  How do you propose this gets paid for?


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing.  Its been nice having a break these past few months.
> 
> What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them.  That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.
> 
> Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this?  Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap.  How do you propose this gets paid for?


Population density certainly matters.  We lived in NJ for 5 years.  On the boys side, the goal was to play at the Red Bulls Academy - fully funded.  That was the top dog.  Furthest travel was to PA our south jersey for league games (at the most 1.5 hrs) and a tournament our two out of state.  The soccer was/is good, no reason to pay beyond what you were paying to play in a regional league.

The girls were the same, except that the "girls" clubs to strive to make was PDA (later a DA club, now an ECNL club).  There are so many colleges and so many tournaments that coaches really didn't need a letter league to recruit.  Of course, ECNL is making inroads as well as the GA in places like NJ.  Marketing is great thing.  Even surf is in NJ  now.


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## Giesbock (Sep 15, 2020)

Maybe this is counter intuitive or maybe just plain dumb but what if NFL franchises ( the other futbol) were to take NWSL under wing, help them support youth farm /academy system.  Build quality of play, build appeal with female viewers, create new sponsorship and ad revenue streams.  
The only difference in EPL is that the men’s team plays the same game as the women...

totally off?  Or?


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 15, 2020)

happy9 said:


> I think that's more of a CA thing,  The rest of the soccer centric parts of the country are playing, and have been playing for a while.  With that said, certainly a frustration for CA, which is the soccer talent mecca of the US.  Which is why your top teams are traveling here (AZ) , *under severe weather conditions*, to play friendlies.  Some of you may already be on the road or double checking lodging reservations as you prepare to come here this weekend. * The Cactus Kickoff rarely (if ever) attracts top teams from anywhere*.


Well guess what Happy, Great Park fields are shut down again.  This time because of all the the fires.  I will head out at 4am Friday and then get ready for the 5:30 match.  5 hour the way I drive. Reach 11 is where were playing all of our games and a great place to walk my dog.  If we make it to the finals, we play at 1:50pm on Sunday.


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## Desert Hound (Sep 15, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Todd Marinovich should read up on what a parent can mistakenly wind up creating.


A painter?









						The Art of Todd Marinovich
					






					www.marinovichart.com


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## dad4 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing.  Its been nice having a break these past few months.
> 
> What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them.  That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.
> 
> Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this?  Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap.  How do you propose this gets paid for?


Why assume we are paying $200 for those fancy new Adidas uniforms?  What is wrong with a $20 kit from Score Sports?  

Except for professional coaching, AYSO handles all of that just fine on less than $200 per season.  

The question isn’t “who should pay for all these things we spend money on?”.  The question is “why are we spending so much money?”

I have no problem if the wealthier families want to pay for fancy uniforms and professional coaches.  But that isn’t for everyone.  I’d like us to have better outreach to include more lower cost teams from lower cost areas.


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## Grace T. (Sep 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> .
> I’d like us to have better outreach to include more lower cost teams from lower cost areas.


AYSO United.  Lower cost uniform, not too many tournaments, lower fees.   AYSO United did very well in the SoCal State Cup last year, particularly among the youngers.

Nothing in life is free though.  There are tradeoffs to everything.  The tradeoff here is that the organization treats soccer like little league: development is a lower priority...if they develop players those players when they get older may just go off to higher level teams...though they are backstopped by a crew of professional coaches to oversee things, the amateur coaches are of varying quality,...and many go into it not for the cash but for the glory of the win and to try to build a winning team (think fantasy football)....leads to usual short cut stragies: running game, long balls, kick it high over the GK, etc.

The other challenge for them COVID specific in Socal is that the entire pyramid recruitment has been destroyed by COVID.  With no core season there's no way to ID All Stars/Select Teams.  Extras teams were unable to do tryouts.  United Teams that are already put together can continue training and recruiting here and there, but with big casting call tryouts stopped its very hard to build new teams.


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## Woobie06 (Sep 15, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Why assume we are paying $200 for those fancy new Adidas uniforms?  What is wrong with a $20 kit from Score Sports?
> 
> Except for professional coaching, AYSO handles all of that just fine on less than $200 per season.
> 
> ...



That what I said earlier...pay what you are comfortable with.  Yes, the option you propose exists today.  A lot of kids participate in AYSO.  If AYSO was a viable option for those playing ECNL, why are the kids playing for the other clubs?  The answer to your question is pretty simple...I pay for the things I spend money on, and I decide what I spend my money on....some people like jewelry, cars, and some like spending money on track suits, tournaments and $200 Adidas Uniforms.

Is your kid playing AYSO, if not, why? Who pays for the outreach?


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## SFR (Sep 15, 2020)

Here is a simple thought on why we pay $$$. Youth sport is a business. If there is a demand then you try to offer and sell. If there is a need or some sort of philanthropy then you get things for free or at good discount. 
MLS teams have their academies at no cost, right? I don't know if it's a business or more like philanthropy. They can accommodate only a tiny fraction of those who want and deserve it. So for the rest who didn't make the academy (not necessary because of the luck of skills) there are non-mls academies pop up to deal with the demand. We love our kids and we pay (who can) for them to have the best possible experience. I think some parents (small number) paying and hoping their kids will get scholarships but majority understand what to expect and pay anyway.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Well guess what Happy, Great Park fields are shut down again.  This time because of all the the fires.  I will head out at 4am Friday and then get ready for the 5:30 match.  5 hour the way I drive. Reach 11 is where were playing all of our games and a great place to walk my dog.  If we make it to the finals, we play at 1:50pm on Sunday.


Remember - dogs aren't allowed at Reach.  They can be walked on the trail south of the complex, but you can't take them near the fields.  You also can't leave them in the car - people will freak out if you do.  But anyway, I wish you safe travels and thanks for coming!  Maybe we'll make it down for a game or two, Reach is just south of me..  It's awesome that Reach is being made available.

thanks for coming!


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 15, 2020)

happy9 said:


> *Remember - dogs aren't allowed at Reach.*  They can be walked on the trail south of the complex, but you can't take them near the fields.  You also can't leave them in the car - people will freak out if you do.  But anyway, I wish you safe travels and thanks for coming!  Maybe we'll make it down for a game or two, Reach is just south of me..  It's awesome that Reach is being made available.
> 
> thanks for coming!


No dogs, that was me being a joker....lol!!  I think I will drop off and watch live stream at hotel.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> AYSO United.  Lower cost uniform, not too many tournaments, lower fees.   AYSO United did very well in the SoCal State Cup last year, particularly among the youngers.
> 
> Nothing in life is free though.  There are tradeoffs to everything.  The tradeoff here is that the organization treats soccer like little league: development is a lower priority...if they develop players those players when they get older may just go off to higher level teams...though they are backstopped by a crew of professional coaches to oversee things, the amateur coaches are of varying quality,...and many go into it not for the cash but for the glory of the win and to try to build a winning team (think fantasy football)....leads to usual short cut stragies: running game, long balls, kick it high over the GK, etc.
> 
> The other challenge for them COVID specific in Socal is that the entire pyramid recruitment has been destroyed by COVID.  With no core season there's no way to ID All Stars/Select Teams.  Extras teams were unable to do tryouts.  United Teams that are already put together can continue training and recruiting here and there, but with big casting call tryouts stopped its very hard to build new teams.


AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ.  I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ.  What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.


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## happy9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> No dogs, that was me being a joker....lol!!  I think I will drop off and watch live stream at hotel.


If she's playing on fields 11-18, you should be good from the sidewalks..


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## dad4 (Sep 15, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> That what I said earlier...pay what you are comfortable with.  Yes, the option you propose exists today.  A lot of kids participate in AYSO.  If AYSO was a viable option for those playing ECNL, why are the kids playing for the other clubs?  The answer to your question is pretty simple...I pay for the things I spend money on, and I decide what I spend my money on....some people like jewelry, cars, and some like spending money on track suits, tournaments and $200 Adidas Uniforms.
> 
> Is your kid playing AYSO, if not, why? Who pays for the outreach?


My AYSO region doesnt have united.   If we did, my son probably would have played for united.

Daughter is a different question.  She is a much higher skill player, so it is harder to find a team that fits.  (Unicorn when viewed through parent goggles.  I can't tell if she's a real unicorn, because I am the one with the dad goggles on.)

Anyway.  Not really a story about my kid.  It's more that she's having a great time, and I think we could do a better job opening it up to more kids like her.  And the gaps in ECNL coverage hint that some high quality players are getting missed.


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## Grace T. (Sep 15, 2020)

happy9 said:


> AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ.  I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ.  What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.


The olders teams are a good outlet for high level players who are on the academic track in high school and want to keep playing but don't want to/don't have the time to do practices/games 5-6x a week.  I've had a few players in interviews to my Ivy that went AYSO United after deciding the top flight club thing wasn't for them.

It's gaining a decent foothold in UT too.  But difference there is UT plays a very similar game....lots of run and shoot, not much by way of building out the back.  (Not saying there aren't AYSO United teams that build from the back....every coach is unique...just the incentives are for that not to happen).


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## Goalie1310 (Sep 15, 2020)

SFR said:


> It's nice to hear what/how youth soccer was in Spain, UK, and etc.
> 1. But this is US. It's different here. You can't just apply blindly here from what's working there. Yes, you can take something that might be useful and try here.
> 2. No parents? How do you see kids getting to practices and games when there is no public transportation infrastructure in towns? Don't tell me when you were 10 years old and was living in Madrid or London you used to get on bus by yourself. You will get in so much trouble here letting your child alone on the bus if there is a bus.
> 3. "They train 5 days a week twice a day" - Thank you but no thank you. We don't have here 25 different pro or semi pro divisions where you can end up playing if your goal to be a professional soccer player. Here, the best (and only one) pro league is MLS, right? The starting salary is what around 65K? Working at McDonald's almost gives you the same income without any injuries (hopefully).
> ...


1. I agree with you that’s why I said we are not ready to be as good as them.
2. No parents exactly you can’t even imagine or understand. When I was 10 like many others in LA we had to take ourselves to practice on a bike or walk sometimes a coach would pick up multiple kids. I am from LA and never lived overseas and plenty of 10 year olds take buses or walk to school where are you from? 
3. I get it your not ready for that type of commitment and for good reasons as you mentioned. Again that’s why I said we are not ready to be as good as them. But you better believe kids are doing that for other sports here , we played everyday and that’s probably why we are very good at other sports
4. Again I know you can’t even imagine parents staying pretty much quiet (By quiet I mean no coaching and yelling at referees) on the sidelines because of what you see here. Now I watched 6-7 games and that was my experience at that tournament. It was refreshing.
5. If you want the best players it can’t cost what it does now. I will say again we are not ready to be as good as them because of everything you pointed out and because soccer is not what it is over there.

I Think you are in a nice little bubble and because you grew up with a different experience it’s hard for you to imagine . You do realize that kids have to walk or take the train here in LA to get places and yes I mean 10 year olds I was one of them in the 80’s when RTD was known for Rough tough dangerous LOL you LA 80’s cats you hear me.  I said it in the first post another reason we USA is not ready because they will send their kid to another country to live and train no parents on site. You won’t let your 10 year old walk down the street .


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## tjinaz (Sep 16, 2020)

happy9 said:


> AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ.  I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ.  What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.


The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years.  They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United.  It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches.  If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult.  A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.


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## tjinaz (Sep 16, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> Maybe this is counter intuitive or maybe just plain dumb but what if NFL franchises ( the other futbol) were to take NWSL under wing, help them support youth farm /academy system.  Build quality of play, build appeal with female viewers, create new sponsorship and ad revenue streams.
> The only difference in EPL is that the men’s team plays the same game as the women...
> 
> totally off?  Or?


Why would they do this?  Pure charity?  NFL does not want to promote rival sports or leagues.  NFL teams while rich are a business why spend money to promote another sport that isn't related.  Why NWSL?  The could do Women's hockey, Softball or Volleyball.  It just doesn't make sense.


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## Giesbock (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks for responding.  Good point about including leagues other than NWSL in conversation.  Just that on the girls side, soccer is the fastest growing sport and 10 years from now might become a new revenue stream for NFL owners.  Certainly not competing with NFL in any significant way.

Unfortunately, you’re probably right that it doesn’t make sense.  Girls soccer in the US will remain mostly a pay to play model - the expense justified by either getting a fractional sliver of scholarship money, or more commonly, as a way to get a leg up on equally qualified applicants to top Universities.


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## dad4 (Sep 16, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years.  They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United.  It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches.  If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult.  A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.


Sure.  Volunteer organizations have a harder time telling problem parents to take a hike.  Professional organizations have a hard time extending services into lower income areas.  Ultimately, you need both types of club.

But, if you want to serve low income areas, you’re going to make use of volunteers.   When you look at the map, it’s pretty clear that pay to play isn’t reaching working class neighborhoods.  

Do recruiters still go to state cup as kids get older, or did that die as ECNL grew?


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## Messi>CR7 (Sep 16, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> Thanks for responding.  Good point about including leagues other than NWSL in conversation.  Just that on the girls side, soccer is the fastest growing sport and 10 years from now might become a new revenue stream for NFL owners.  Certainly not competing with NFL in any significant way.
> 
> Unfortunately, you’re probably right that it doesn’t make sense.  Girls soccer in the US will remain mostly a pay to play model - the expense justified by either getting a fractional sliver of scholarship money, or more commonly, as a way to get a leg up on equally qualified applicants to top Universities.


There are 26 MLS teams now and going to be 30 in a few years, and most consider MLS to be a second or third tier league in term of level of competition.  That means there are plenty of investors for soccer if there is money to be made.  If NWSL does not attract investors, that means there is no ROI in it.

Pro leagues are in the entertainment business and they need to provide enough value to sustain themselves.  Any league that requires subsidy will always be in limbo and will most likely have terrible pay for the players.


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## tjinaz (Sep 16, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Sure.  Volunteer organizations have a harder time telling problem parents to take a hike.  Professional organizations have a hard time extending services into lower income areas.  Ultimately, you need both types of club.
> 
> But, if you want to serve low income areas, you’re going to make use of volunteers.   When you look at the map, it’s pretty clear that pay to play isn’t reaching working class neighborhoods.
> 
> Do recruiters still go to state cup as kids get older, or did that die as ECNL grew?


My DD played on a Challenge team at U11 and it was great.  Low cost, good team great parents.  Team originally was rec but was really good so they jumped the fence into competitive.  Coach was a dad but his family was from South America and was really into soccer, had a passion for it and it showed.  Team did very well and started moving up leagues.  Once they got near the top as the girls got older they started getting destroyed by the big club teams and this was a shock.  They were used to winning all the time.  Top clubs had resources AYSO didn't have.  Camps, quality skill training, strength and agility, other quality coaches for backups and advice.  Coach decided to take the entire team and join a competitive club.  They still do pretty well to this day and of the original 11, 9 are still with the team.  We left due to daddy ball.  Volunteers usually start coaching their own kids, they develop a taste for it and keep going.  Sure many know why daddy ball is a bad idea but when you are using volunteers you take what you can get.  I think this scenario plays out a lot on AYSO United and illustrates the limitations of their system.


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## dad4 (Sep 16, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> My DD played on a Challenge team at U11 and it was great.  Low cost, good team great parents.  Team originally was rec but was really good so they jumped the fence into competitive.  Coach was a dad but his family was from South America and was really into soccer, had a passion for it and it showed.  Team did very well and started moving up leagues.  Once they got near the top as the girls got older they started getting destroyed by the big club teams and this was a shock.  They were used to winning all the time.  Top clubs had resources AYSO didn't have.  Camps, quality skill training, strength and agility, other quality coaches for backups and advice.  Coach decided to take the entire team and join a competitive club.  They still do pretty well to this day and of the original 11, 9 are still with the team.  We left due to daddy ball.  Volunteers usually start coaching their own kids, they develop a taste for it and keep going.  Sure many know why daddy ball is a bad idea but when you are using volunteers you take what you can get.  I think this scenario plays out a lot on AYSO United and illustrates the limitations of their system.


daddy ball?   You mean parents joining in the team scrimmage?  Or the coach keeps his dd in the game and other players on the bench?


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## tjinaz (Sep 16, 2020)

dad4 said:


> daddy ball?   You mean parents joining in the team scrimmage?  Or the coach keeps his dd in the game and other players on the bench?


Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got.  Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded.  He had the same players in the same role year after year.    If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time.  Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club.  Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts.  Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.


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## Eagle33 (Sep 16, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got.  Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded.  He had the same players in the same role year after year.    If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time.  Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club.  Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts.  Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.


In my experience a dad coach (no matter how good of a coach he/she is) can never be _objective_ or unbiased in a team setting and that is a huge issue.


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## tjinaz (Sep 16, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> In my experience a dad coach (no matter how good of a coach he/she is) can never be _objective_ or unbiased in a team setting and that is a huge issue.


Also another reason why most clubs have a 2 year limit on coaches.  They can only coach the same team for 2 years then it goes to someone else.  Kids change mentally and physically over the years and new eyes are much more objective as to current state and situation.  Volunteer coaches would likely want to stay with the team and infrastructure they have created rather than having to start over and if you are not paying them... what leverage do you have?


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## happy9 (Sep 16, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years.  They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United.  It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches.  If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult.  A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.


Good info, We've only been in AZ for a few years.  AYSO teams and coaches that I've seen play good soccer.  Reminiscent of grassroots coaches/leagues/players back east.


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## Chalklines (Sep 17, 2020)

Pandemic will never stop parents of sub par players to open up their pockets to pay and have spots on top club and travel teams.


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## Dirtnap (Sep 17, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> My understanding that many AYSO regions were given Green light to start training.


I got the same email from my local AYSO region.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

Daddy ball is classic.  Reminds of this one time when I had to help a coach dad in baseball.  Coach Dave and his two sons.  Both of his boys were really good players.  This Coach Dave made it to the minors and he was determined to make sure one of his boys made it to the big leagues.  I played little league when I was a young boy and we had no Pony.  So I was watching my son grow ages 1-6 and saw lots of speed and he was coordinated and athletic.  I loved baseball and hoops so those were the two places I was heading first.  I was curious to see what kind of player I had so I enrolled him Mustang Pony.  BTW, this was a big mistake on my part.  I thought my son would just pick the game naturally up at his pace and play 2nd base like his old man.  Nope, coach Dave had these boys all on one knee saying, "yes coach, no coach, hum buddy and all these baseball terms."  This team was Daves team and they already started travel ball the summer before and you said nothing when he spoke.  He made boys cry every practice.  My son and this other kid were regulated to the bench and right field.  It was horrible and to this day my son thinks baseball is boring.


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## Giesbock (Sep 17, 2020)

tjinaz said:


> Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got.  Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded.  He had the same players in the same role year after year.    If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time.  Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club.  Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts.  Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.
> [/





Chalklines said:


> Pandemic will never stop parents of sub par players to open up their pockets to pay and have spots on top club and travel teams.


And parents of above-par players won’t?  From your statement, you must think your player is above-par.


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## Chalklines (Sep 17, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> And parents of above-par players won’t?  From your statement, you must think your player is above-par.


Nope, both of my kids are maybe average on a good day but they dont play for big clubs. You could even call them sub par.

Over the years on both my son and daughters team we have seen family's come and go from top teams and top flights who really never fit the part.


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## Giesbock (Sep 17, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> Nope, both of my kids are maybe average on a good day but they dont play for big clubs. You could even call them sub par.
> 
> Over the years on both my son and daughters team we have seen family's come and go from top teams and top flights who really never fit the part.


I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Sorry bout that!

my kid came up from rec AYSO through their extra program and then due to daddy coach syndrome she and others formed a training squad with no club affiliation for 2 years.They used to occasionally scrimmage club teams and wondered what the fuss was all about..


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term.  I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete.  By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees.  In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).  

My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball.  And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on.  However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ.  So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.

So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
> Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term. * I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete*.  By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees.  In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).
> 
> My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball.  And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on.  However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ.  So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.
> ...


Wow, that long?


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

One more thing, I hate it when I hear about the financial opportunities in the alphabet leagues.

My kid wasn’t offered anything by Surf or Lamorinda.  I felt a lil’ love from Deza though.  When I inquired about assistance, I felt most were evasive.  I was offended by the process and my kid will never play club.

I also think the claims that if a kid is talented they wont have to pay is complete BS.  The kids that need assistance should be evaluated when they are around 6 years old not at 14 when they have been excluded from the game...pure unadulterated BS!!!


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## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> One more thing, I hate it when I hear about the financial opportunities in the alphabet leagues.
> 
> My kid wasn’t offered anything by Surf or Lamorinda.  I felt a lil’ love from Deza though.  When I inquired about assistance, I felt most were evasive.  I was offended by the process and my kid will never play club.
> 
> I also think the claims that if a kid is talented they wont have to pay is complete BS.  The kids that need assistance should be evaluated when they are around 6 years old not at 14 when they have been excluded from the game...pure unadulterated BS!!!


Maps old club teams always helped families out with their goats who needed a little help.  I 100% agree that 6 or 7 year olds need help.


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Wow, that long?


I think so.  We need to build the infrastructure.


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## dad4 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
> Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term.  I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete.  By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees.  In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).
> 
> My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball.  And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on.  However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ.  So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.
> ...


Daddy ball works in TJ in part because the daddies played ball as kids.  

In suburbs here, it’s hard to get parents to volunteer as coach, even for U6.  They are so full of self doubt about soccer skills, they forget that it’s play.  But they have cash, and writing a check is easy.

Once more parents know enough that they aren’t scared of a 5 year old with a ball, it will get better.  Even one generation should put a huge dent in pay to play for youngers.  HS will take longer.


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## Grace T. (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
> Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term.  I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete.  By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees.  In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).
> 
> My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball.  And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on.  However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ.  So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.
> ...


Part of the reason club ball exploded though was because of the numerous deficiencies in AYSO and other rec problems.  One, as you correctly point out, is the lack of knowledge by coaches.  That will be corrected over time as our kids have kids and coach rec programs.  But my kids first coach on their first training session spent the time teaching them how on the whistle they should line up in a proper 3 point tackling stance and rush over the "line of scrimmage" to attack the ball.

Another problem though is the system is not tiered.  When I was growing up, the future pro was expected to play on the same team as the handicapped kid.  That was bad for the future pro (because if no one can pass you the ball you don't develop).  It was also bad for the handicapped kid (because kids are smart, they want to win, they know who will lose the ball, so they don't pass to that kid, and that kid feels really bad about it and doesn't want to play).  AYSO has become more tiered with Extras, AllStars/Select, and VIP, but it's still not a true tiered system like they have in the UK or Spanish rec.  Reason my younger hopped to club was because he wanted to keep playing, he asked all his AYSO teammates to train but we got responses from no thanks we're doing other sports, or no thanks we have Disneyland annual passes and need to get back there.  We had Disneyland annual passes too, but by then the kids had outgrown them and wanted to do other things.

Until they fix the tier problem, AYSO will still have issues.  It's gotten better with the additional level creations, but even those are miered in a mixture of politics, volunteer credits, and the hunt for fast kids (instead of soccer players).


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## dad4 (Sep 17, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Part of the reason club ball exploded though was because of the numerous deficiencies in AYSO and other rec problems.  One, as you correctly point out, is the lack of knowledge by coaches.  That will be corrected over time as our kids have kids and coach rec programs.  But my kids first coach on their first training session spent the time teaching them how on the whistle they should line up in a proper 3 point tackling stance and rush over the "line of scrimmage" to attack the ball.
> 
> Another problem though is the system is not tiered.  When I was growing up, the future pro was expected to play on the same team as the handicapped kid.  That was bad for the future pro (because if no one can pass you the ball you don't develop).  It was also bad for the handicapped kid (because kids are smart, they want to win, they know who will lose the ball, so they don't pass to that kid, and that kid feels really bad about it and doesn't want to play).  AYSO has become more tiered with Extras, AllStars/Select, and VIP, but it's still not a true tiered system like they have in the UK or Spanish rec.  Reason my younger hopped to club was because he wanted to keep playing, he asked all his AYSO teammates to train but we got responses from no thanks we're doing other sports, or no thanks we have Disneyland annual passes and need to get back there.  We had Disneyland annual passes too, but by then the kids had outgrown them and wanted to do other things.
> 
> Until they fix the tier problem, AYSO will still have issues.  It's gotten better with the additional level creations, but even those are miered in a mixture of politics, volunteer credits, and the hunt for fast kids (instead of soccer players).


The tiers problem is hard for AYSO to fix.  

Some of the people who run the divisions are used to their kid being the big fish in a small pond.  They like watching their kid score 40 goals a season before he goes off to select.

Go to a tiered system, and that same boy gets the ball stripped 4 times in a row, because his opponent is just as good.  

There’s also a coaching shortage problem.  On average, the sons of coaches are more likely to be put in a higher tier.  Once 14 out of 20 coaches are in the upper tiers, who is left to coach your lower tier?


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Part of the reason club ball exploded though was because of the numerous deficiencies in AYSO and other rec problems.  One, as you correctly point out, is the lack of knowledge by coaches.  That will be corrected over time as our kids have kids and coach rec programs.  But my kids first coach on their first training session spent the time teaching them how on the whistle they should line up in a proper 3 point tackling stance and rush over the "line of scrimmage" to attack the ball.
> 
> Another problem though is the system is not tiered.  When I was growing up, the future pro was expected to play on the same team as the handicapped kid.  That was bad for the future pro (because if no one can pass you the ball you don't develop).  It was also bad for the handicapped kid (because kids are smart, they want to win, they know who will lose the ball, so they don't pass to that kid, and that kid feels really bad about it and doesn't want to play).  AYSO has become more tiered with Extras, AllStars/Select, and VIP, but it's still not a true tiered system like they have in the UK or Spanish rec.  Reason my younger hopped to club was because he wanted to keep playing, he asked all his AYSO teammates to train but we got responses from no thanks we're doing other sports, or no thanks we have Disneyland annual passes and need to get back there.  We had Disneyland annual passes too, but by then the kids had outgrown them and wanted to do other things.
> 
> Until they fix the tier problem, AYSO will still have issues.  It's gotten better with the additional level creations, but even those are miered in a mixture of politics, volunteer credits, and the hunt for fast kids (instead of soccer players).


I have very limited experience with AYSO.  But, my kid used to go to Futbol Factory in Chula Vista.  When Futbol Factory became DV7 they took over an AYSO 2007 team that I think was called Matrix.  The team was very athletic but wasn’t very technical.  They tied So Cal Blues at the Manchester City Cup.

Many of the parents were satisfied with their kids doing toe kicks etc.  so the star 2007 keeper and my kid opted out.

So, from my limited personal experience, I agree that AYSO could and should be a bit better.


----------



## watfly (Sep 17, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> Maybe this is counter intuitive or maybe just plain dumb but what if NFL franchises ( the other futbol) were to take NWSL under wing, help them support youth farm /academy system.  Build quality of play, build appeal with female viewers, create new sponsorship and ad revenue streams.
> The only difference in EPL is that the men’s team plays the same game as the women...
> 
> totally off?  Or?


Actually I think that's a genius idea, but would likely never happen.  NFL has a horrible image when it comes to the treatment of women (ie prevalence of player violence towards women).  NFL could improve that image by actually doing something substantive by supporting women's soccer instead of just wearing pink socks for a few games.  I do find some irony in the fact that players are kneeling in protest of police violence while having their own internal problem with violence towards women.  "Do as I say, not as I do".


----------



## Woobie06 (Sep 17, 2020)

@MacDre On clubs our DD has been on there has been assistance provided by the club for players in need and there have also been families on the team that have also pitched in via fundraising, or sponsorship, etc.  If you are utilizing the services, shouldn’t you pay for it?  Nothing is free.  

I disagree with you regarding pay-to-play going away. 30+ years ago when we played youth club soccer it was pay-to-play. It is even more $$$ today. I actually believe costs will at minimum keep up with inflation and then some. Pay-to-play will go away if there are true Academy’s that are fully funded by the Pro Clubs and if there was a true Pro/Rel structure like in other countries...wont happen until they can make money on it...Model is not set-up this way...no Pro/Rel in MLS...USL wont get a crack...on the girls side (for most) the dream in the US is not pro, but college.

Your DD is with Xolo and I believe the Feminina MX Team...costs subsidized by the Pro Clubs, right?  That model does not really exist in the US.  Good for your fam to be in this model and get quality coaching/development.

The flip side of this is the family who asks for help but shows to practice in a new Mercedes/Lexus SUV...seen this happen twice.  Makes you scratch your head a bit...There is a difference between not wanting to pay and can’t pay.

Daddy/Mommy ball is like Daddy/Mommy teacher...not sure this is the best way to develop players or students.


----------



## happy9 (Sep 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> The tiers problem is hard for AYSO to fix.
> 
> Some of the people who run the divisions are used to their kid being the big fish in a small pond.  They like watching their kid score 40 goals a season before he goes off to select.
> 
> ...


As long as the NCAA is involved in Soccer, there will be a need for pay to play.  Daddy ball is admirable and trust me, I prefer the grassroots approach.  As long as their is/are organization(s) in place that assists in placement of kids into college programs and enables access to education $$s, ECNL, GA, and others will remain firmly entrenched.  No way of getting around it.

As I look around at the group of parents that are involved with the club soccer scene in AZ, I wouldn't trust one of them to develop any player of mine.  They don't have the time, the expertise, and the background to do it.  Their only way of contributing to soccer development is through their wallets.

For a short time in NJ, my daughter was coached by a dad who played D1 Soccer.  He was good for a little while.  The girls soon outgrew his capacity.  He knew it and we moved (including him)  to a club with a full time professional dutch staff.  Best thing we ever did for both kids.  Dutch soccer is wonderful, immersing players in the style, even at the expense of losing games.  We were told we would lose early and to be quiet and accept losing until the players understood how to play.  To this day, best club we've ever played on.  It's not an ECNL club, it's not a GA club, it wasn't a DA club - and never had a desire to be in those leagues.


----------



## notintheface (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.


I think in America the thought of a federal grant to fund soccer (like what was so successful in Iceland, Norway, etc) is probably a non-starter, even though just a fraction of the F-35 budget would pay for US Soccer for All many times over. What we'll probably see is a consortium of brands making a pool of money to subsidize high-quality coaching, alongside increased ticket sales from the national teams, as part of a larger marketing budget + guaranteed kit sales.


----------



## dad4 (Sep 17, 2020)

happy9 said:


> As long as the NCAA is involved in Soccer, there will be a need for pay to play.  Daddy ball is admirable and trust me, I prefer the grassroots approach.  As long as their is/are organization(s) in place that assists in placement of kids into college programs and enables access to education $$s, ECNL, GA, and others will remain firmly entrenched.  No way of getting around it.
> 
> As I look around at the group of parents that are involved with the club soccer scene in AZ, I wouldn't trust one of them to develop any player of mine.  They don't have the time, the expertise, and the background to do it.  Their only way of contributing to soccer development is through their wallets.
> 
> For a short time in NJ, my daughter was coached by a dad who played D1 Soccer.  He was good for a little while.  The girls soon outgrew his capacity.  He knew it and we moved (including him)  to a club with a full time professional dutch staff.  Best thing we ever did for both kids.  Dutch soccer is wonderful, immersing players in the style, even at the expense of losing games.  We were told we would lose early and to be quiet and accept losing until the players understood how to play.  To this day, best club we've ever played on.  It's not an ECNL club, it's not a GA club, it wasn't a DA club - and never had a desire to be in those leagues.


For the 100,000 or so kids who are chasing D1 NCAA money, sure.

But that’s a tiny fraction of the total kids who play club soccer.   U-Little bronze/copper parents are not looking for information about about scholarships, they just want their kid to play.  And there are more kids in U-Little bronze/copper than all the letter leagues put together.  

Ultimately, I think tiered AYSO will give club a challenge in the copper-silver range for u6-u14.  If they can actually bring themselves to do it, that is.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> @MacDre On clubs our DD has been on there has been assistance provided by the club for players in need and there have also been families on the team that have also pitched in via fundraising, or sponsorship, etc.  If you are utilizing the services, shouldn’t you pay for it?  Nothing is free.
> 
> I disagree with you regarding pay-to-play going away. 30+ years ago when we played youth club soccer it was pay-to-play. It is even more $$$ today. I actually believe costs will at minimum keep up with inflation and then some. Pay-to-play will go away if there are true Academy’s that are fully funded by the Pro Clubs and if there was a true Pro/Rel structure like in other countries...wont happen until they can make money on it...Model is not set-up this way...no Pro/Rel in MLS...USL wont get a crack...on the girls side (for most) the dream in the US is not pro, but college.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your kid has been involved with great teams.  Nothing is free but I think a business should provide value.  I don’t see much value being provided by club soccer.  Club soccer kinds disgusts me because it’s a vehicle for privilege kids to buy their way into schools that they aren’t otherwise qualified to get into.

I also believe that it takes a village to raise a child.  Some kids have bad parents and I feel privileged folks like you and I should be just as concerned with helping the disenfranchised as  getting our kids into Stanford.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Sounds like your kid has been involved with great teams.  Nothing is free but I think a business should provide value.  I don’t see much value being provided by club soccer.  Club soccer kinds disgusts me because it’s a vehicle for privilege kids to buy their way into schools that they aren’t otherwise qualified to get into.
> 
> I also believe that it takes a village to raise a child.  Some kids have bad parents and I feel privileged folks like you and I should be just as concerned with helping the disenfranchised as  getting our kids into Stanford.


Hey MacDre, take over bro.  I'm done with all this.  You were gone for a while and said no more but I see your back.  Addiction?  I'm going cold turkey today bro.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Hey MacDre, take over bro.  I'm done with all this.  You were gone for a while and said no more but I see your back.  Addiction?  I'm going cold turkey today bro.


No, I’m done too.  Not really an addiction.  This forum just kinda reminds me of being 12yrs old playing sand lot ball and arguing and debating with other kids.  Being an adult all the time is overrated and boring homie.


----------



## happy9 (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Hey MacDre, take over bro.  I'm done with all this.  You were gone for a while and said no more but I see your back.  Addiction?  I'm going cold turkey today bro.


You should be getting on the road.


----------



## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

happy9 said:


> You should be getting on the road.


SW League flies Southwest Happy.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> SW League flies Southwest Happy.


Oh hell no!  The cattle cart with the commoners.   Do they offer a first class option?


----------



## happy9 (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> SW League flies Southwest Happy.


The only way.


----------



## happy9 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Oh hell no!  The cattle cart with the commoners.   Do they offer a first class option?


Only way to fly, feed bag included.


----------



## Mosafie (Sep 17, 2020)

A lot of kids and parents are living a life they weren't accustomed too.

Before the pandemic it seems we were running everywhere all day. School, work, homework, practice then some lousy fast food dinner. 

With so much time with kids and family at home people are discovering a different life. Several families I know are now rethinking if club soccer and the commitment it requires was worth it.


----------



## Woobie06 (Sep 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> For the 100,000 or so kids who are chasing D1 NCAA money, sure.
> 
> But that’s a tiny fraction of the total kids who play club soccer.   U-Little bronze/copper parents are not looking for information about about scholarships, they just want their kid to play.  And there are more kids in U-Little bronze/copper than all the letter leagues put together.
> 
> Ultimately, I think tiered AYSO will give club a challenge in the copper-silver range for u6-u14.  If they can actually bring themselves to do it, that is.


This goes right back to the argument that there are choices for people/kids/families at all levels and you can pay/invest as much as you want for Johnny/Sally depending on what you are looking for.  There are options for all levels of play.



MacDre said:


> Sounds like your kid has been involved with great teams.  Nothing is free but I think a business should provide value.  I don’t see much value being provided by club soccer.  Club soccer kinds disgusts me because it’s a vehicle for privilege kids to buy their way into schools that they aren’t otherwise qualified to get into.
> 
> I also believe that it takes a village to raise a child.  Some kids have bad parents and I feel privileged folks like you and I should be just as concerned with helping the disenfranchised as  getting our kids into Stanford.


I agree with you...the value has to justify the cost and everybody has their own set of circumstances/variables to determine that.  If the value is not there for you, don’t do it. 

I’d argue sports are a way for athletes in general to get into schools they probably would not get into otherwise. Like many athletes - Football, BBall, Baseball, etc. But isn’t that the the same for kids that have talents in other areas - singing, instruments, robotics, etc.  I don’t buy it’s all about privileged kids. On every team we have been on there is a pretty decent mix of family income levels from what I can tell...maybe that’s just been our situation.

On the Women’s side the US is still dominating....going for the three peat in a couple of years.  The model in place, while not not perfect and can use some improvement, up to this point has produced a quality National Team product and results.  I think every person on the Team/Pool worked their ass off to get there and that it has much more to do with talent, drive, and commitment rather than privilege.

As far as helping others, yes, we could all do more.  As far as Stanford goes...she can spell it, and she might have better odds at Lotto.


----------



## Eagle33 (Sep 17, 2020)

I hear Cal South requires now travel papers for going out of state to play a tournament. Is this true?


----------



## espola (Sep 17, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> I hear Cal South requires now travel papers for going out of state to play a tournament. Is this true?


Did they get a letter from their insurance carrier?


----------



## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> I hear Cal South requires now travel papers for going out of state to play a tournament. Is this true?


I told some on here someone(s) is 100% against soccer.  I know what's up but I'll keep it to myself.  Like i said, boarder check points will soon be put up to check papers and temp and see what your bringing back from AZ besides fruit.  This is the future everyone.  Ask Grace.  Let me say this as I part ways with spies and lies and all that crap.  I know now what I didnt know before and it's not good everyone.  It's just what were stuck with.  I sure want peace to win and I know peace will win, I just dont know when peace will win.  The real reason I have to leave is I have no more time to Help with soccer.  Both of my in laws have Alzheimer's and they need our help.  Another retirement plan lie out the window.


----------



## Giesbock (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I told some on here someone(s) is 100% against soccer.  I know what's up but I'll keep it to myself.  Like i said, boarder check points will soon be put up to check papers and temp and see what your bringing back from AZ besides fruit.  This is the future everyone.  Ask Grace.  Let me say this as I part ways with spies and lies and all that crap.  I know now what I didnt know before and it's not good everyone.  It's just what were stuck with.  I sure want peace to win and I know peace will win, I just dont know when peace will win.  The real reason I have to leave is I have no more time to Help with soccer.  Both of my in laws have Alzheimer's and they need our help.  Another retirement plan lie out the window.


That’s tough news about your in-laws!


----------



## espola (Sep 17, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> I hear Cal South requires now travel papers for going out of state to play a tournament. Is this true?


Rule 2.14 - the oldest rule in the book.

2.14. Permission to Travel (USYSA Rule 401)
Teams wishing to travel out of state or out of the country to play games must request and
obtain permission from Cal South in accordance with the procedures detailed in the Travel
and Tournament Manual. 

I couldn't find the "Travel and Tournament Manual".


----------



## tjinaz (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I told some on here someone(s) is 100% against soccer.  I know what's up but I'll keep it to myself.  Like i said, boarder check points will soon be put up to check papers and temp and see what your bringing back from AZ besides fruit.  This is the future everyone.  Ask Grace.  Let me say this as I part ways with spies and lies and all that crap.  I know now what I didnt know before and it's not good everyone.  It's just what were stuck with.  I sure want peace to win and I know peace will win, I just dont know when peace will win.  The real reason I have to leave is I have no more time to Help with soccer.  Both of my in laws have Alzheimer's and they need our help.  Another retirement plan lie out the window.


Yea... yea...

Now that Big10, Big12, ACC and SEC are playing ball PAC12 will soon be joining.  Can't leave that money on the table.  This will all be over soon.  When the State University are playing they will release the serfs to play.


----------



## Chalklines (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> I told some on here someone(s) is 100% against soccer.  I know what's up but I'll keep it to myself.  Like i said, boarder check points will soon be put up to check papers and temp and see what your bringing back from AZ besides fruit.  This is the future everyone.  Ask Grace.  Let me say this as I part ways with spies and lies and all that crap.  I know now what I didnt know before and it's not good everyone.  It's just what were stuck with.  I sure want peace to win and I know peace will win, I just dont know when peace will win.  The real reason I have to leave is I have no more time to Help with soccer.  Both of my in laws have Alzheimer's and they need our help.  Another retirement plan lie out the window.


"excuse me sir, is that a soccer ball in your trunk?" "you need to turn your vehicle off and place your keys slowly on the cars roof and exit the vehicle"


----------



## Soccerhelper (Sep 17, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> "excuse me sir, is that a soccer ball in your trunk?" "you need to turn your vehicle off and place your keys slowly on the cars roof and exit the vehicle"


Officer of compliance : "where you been sir?"
Me: ah ah ah at reach 11.....
Officer:  Step out of your vehicle
Officer: Headquarters, please send contact tracer and look at his phone and see where he's been hiding.  
Me:  But I feel find and eat super hea.........
Officer:  You have the right........


Me right now:  Oh boy, that was just a dream from my noon time nap,


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> This goes right back to the argument that there are choices for people/kids/families at all levels and you can pay/invest as much as you want for Johnny/Sally depending on what you are looking for.  There are options for all levels of play.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The benefit/value of club soccer is that it helps privileged kids get into universities they aren’t otherwise qualified for.  Most openly admit they have no professional aspirations.  Why not just play AYSO and join the local 4H club?  Again, no professional aspirations so shouldn’t the focus be on academics?  Or are you arguing that privileged kids with no professional aspirations are entitled to go to college and pretend to be professionals while focusing on academics?  Please clarify.

I think the US women have done a great job so far because women have more opportunities in our great nation than they do in other countries.  We need to make some adjustments however to continue having the same type success in the future.  I don’t doubt that the privileged young ladies in the US pool are hard working.  I have an extremely hard working privileged kid.  But, I don’t think our pool should consist of all privileged kids.  Soccer will greatly benefit by being more inclusive.

One more thing, if a kid is on your daughters team asking for assistance that’s not poor/needy enough for me.  I’m talking about kids that would have to be reached through an after school program who’s parents are too busy or just don’t care.


----------



## myself (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The benefit/value of club soccer is that it helps privileged kids get into universities they aren’t otherwise qualified for.


What's to say that they're not qualified? By what standard? I just googled UCLA's admission percentage, which is allegedly 12%. Kids with outstanding resumes and backgrounds get rejected from top-notch universities all the time. How many of the rejected 88% would have done just fine and graduated successfully had they been given the chance?


----------



## gotothebushes (Sep 17, 2020)

Soccerhelper said:


> Hey MacDre, take over bro.  I'm done with all this.  You were gone for a while and said no more but I see your back.  Addiction?  I'm going cold turkey today bro.


Leaving is not the answer my friend!!


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

myself said:


> What's to say that they're not qualified? By what standard? I just googled UCLA's admission percentage, which is allegedly 12%. Kids with outstanding resumes and backgrounds get rejected from top-notch universities all the time. How many of the rejected 88% would have done just fine and graduated successfully had they been given the chance?


They are not qualified because they have to pay money in order to distinguish themselves to be selected for admission.  Maybe they can get into Long Beach State if they aren’t in the 12% that get into UCLA.  Cream rises...right?

I also think many of the rejected %88 would have done well at UCLA.  But hell, it’s UCLA and everybody can’t get in!


----------



## dad4 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Why not just play AYSO and join the local 4H club?


If your kid is half as talented as you say, you know why she shouldn't play AYSO.

Because she's score 5 goals in 4 minutes and ruin someone else's game.


----------



## Woobie06 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The benefit/value of club soccer is that it helps privileged kids get into universities they aren’t otherwise qualified for.  Most openly admit they have no professional aspirations.  Why not just play AYSO and join the local 4H club?  Again, no professional aspirations so shouldn’t the focus be on academics?  Or are you arguing that privileged kids with no professional aspirations are entitled to go to college and pretend to be professionals while focusing on academics?  Please clarify.
> 
> I think the US women have done a great job so far because women have more opportunities in our great nation than they do in other countries.  We need to make some adjustments however to continue having the same type success in the future.  I don’t doubt that the privileged young ladies in the US pool are hard working.  I have an extremely hard working privileged kid.  But, I don’t think our pool should consist of all privileged kids.  Soccer will greatly benefit by being more inclusive.
> 
> One more thing, if a kid is on your daughters team asking for assistance that’s not poor/needy enough for me.  I’m talking about kids that would have to be reached through an after school program who’s parents are too busy or just don’t care.


On your first point, isn't that why kids, adults, etc., do extra things to boost their resume, profile, highlight the extras, try to sell you on their value?  Applying for acceptance to a University is selling...selling yourself that you have value, belong, and can be additive to the student base.  Additionally, if I am a motivated, have talent, and want to compete at a high level I may want more than what AYSO has to offer.  Why remove or limit that option?  Club Soccer in its current form evidently is not for you, which is cool and nobody has a problem with it. 

I don't get the entitlement you mention....Everybody has an equal opportunity to apply to any college/university/job.  Nobody has an entitlement to go to any university.  Unfortunately everybody's circumstances are different and are not equal...they are not the same and never will be...some people hit the genetic lottery, some come from families with more money, less money, abusive parents, alcoholics, some are smart, thin, skinny, fat, athletic, some not so smart, some driven, some lazy....there is never going to be a truly level playing field and life is not lived on a curve.  Just look at sports...some teams are better than others, more talent, better coaches, club/team has more money...should we start spotting weaker teams points?


----------



## whatithink (Sep 17, 2020)

espola said:


> Rule 2.14 - the oldest rule in the book.
> 
> 2.14. Permission to Travel (USYSA Rule 401)
> Teams wishing to travel out of state or out of the country to play games must request and
> ...


Does that apply to the letter leagues? 

I know that the AZ association has the same thing, but only if you are registered with them. You only need to be registered with them if you play in their league. I know clubs/teams in AZ who are registered (maybe direct with US Soccer) but not with ASA, so all the ASA guidelines etc. never applied to them. As the players have reg cards, they can play in any tournaments they want. Those teams have practiced away (incl. mini scrimmages) through this whole thing (with sensible precautions I'll add), and not a single case of COVID.


----------



## espola (Sep 17, 2020)

whatithink said:


> Does that apply to the letter leagues?
> 
> I know that the AZ association has the same thing, but only if you are registered with them. You only need to be registered with them if you play in their league. I know clubs/teams in AZ who are registered (maybe direct with US Soccer) but not with ASA, so all the ASA guidelines etc. never applied to them. As the players have reg cards, they can play in any tournaments they want. Those teams have practiced away (incl. mini scrimmages) through this whole thing (with sensible precautions I'll add), and not a single case of COVID.


I think that written between the lines is that Cal South's insurance won't apply out of "state" (which also includes northern California) unless you get travel papers.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If your kid is half as talented as you say, you know why she shouldn't play AYSO.
> 
> Because she's score 5 goals in 4 minutes and ruin someone else's game.


My bad.  I have limited experience with AYSO.    But the 2007 AYSO team that I was familiar with seemed equally matched with the Blues 2007 team at Man City Cup.


----------



## whatithink (Sep 17, 2020)

espola said:


> I think that written between the lines is that Cal South's insurance won't apply out of "state" (which also includes northern California) unless you get travel papers.


OK, but if you are not registered with them, the insurance wouldn't count anyway surely. 

IDK if the letter teams register with Cal South though. Either way, there's plenty of teams travelling, so they are either getting the approval or ignoring the requirement or don't need it.


----------



## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> On your first point, isn't that why kids, adults, etc., do extra things to boost their resume, profile, highlight the extras, try to sell you on their value?  Applying for acceptance to a University is selling...selling yourself that you have value, belong, and can be additive to the student base.  Additionally, if I am a motivated, have talent, and want to compete at a high level I may want more than what AYSO has to offer.  Why remove or limit that option?  Club Soccer in its current form evidently is not for you, which is cool and nobody has a problem with it.
> 
> I don't get the entitlement you mention....Everybody has an equal opportunity to apply to any college/university/job.  Nobody has an entitlement to go to any university.  Unfortunately everybody's circumstances are different and are not equal...they are not the same and never will be...some people hit the genetic lottery, some come from families with more money, less money, abusive parents, alcoholics, some are smart, thin, skinny, fat, athletic, some not so smart, some driven, some lazy....there is never going to be a truly level playing field and life is not lived on a curve.  Just look at sports...some teams are better than others, more talent, better coaches, club/team has more money...should we start spotting weaker teams points?


I agree that applying to University should be about selling yourself and not buying your way in.  Remember, women’s soccer doesn’t pay well and the ladies can make much more with a degree...right?  Well damit focus on getting a degree or 2.  Play rec ball and varsity sports.  

Why is spending a substantial amount of time and money focusing on soccer for a kid that has no professional aspirations a good idea?  Wouldn’t the time and money be better spent on where their talents lie?


----------



## dad4 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> My bad.  I have limited experience with AYSO.    But the 2007 AYSO team that I was familiar with seemed equally matched with the Blues 2007 team at Man City Cup.


Got it.  AYSO mostly runs rec leagues, so I thought you meant recreational AYSO.

They also have different levels of club-ish teams with tryouts.  Whether those are available varies by region.

What were you doing at Man City Cup?  I thought you swore to never do club?


----------



## espola (Sep 17, 2020)

whatithink said:


> Does that apply to the letter leagues?
> 
> I know that the AZ association has the same thing, but only if you are registered with them. You only need to be registered with them if you play in their league. I know clubs/teams in AZ who are registered (maybe direct with US Soccer) but not with ASA, so all the ASA guidelines etc. never applied to them. As the players have reg cards, they can play in any tournaments they want. Those teams have practiced away (incl. mini scrimmages) through this whole thing (with sensible precautions I'll add), and not a single case of COVID.


If the team s going to an out-of-state tournament, and using Cal South player cards, don't they need travel papers to be in compliance?


----------



## whatithink (Sep 17, 2020)

espola said:


> If the team s going to an out-of-state tournament, and using Cal South player cards, don't they need travel papers to be in compliance?


Sure, I expect they do, if they are playing in a tournament, but probably not for a scrimmage. My question was, do the letter leagues register their players with Cal South, if not, then I guess they wouldn't need them. Even if they dual register, they can enter tournaments under the US Club soccer cards (say), and get around it.


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Got it.  AYSO mostly runs rec leagues, so I thought you meant recreational AYSO.
> 
> They also have different levels of club-ish teams with tryouts.  Whether those are available varies by region.
> 
> What were you doing at Man City Cup?  I thought you swore to never do club?


My kid played pick up at Futbol Factory in Chula Vista before they converted to DV7.  Coach Chikis ask her to join his team and invited her to the Man City Cup.  My kid didn’t play because I hate the politics of breaking into a group of club parents.  1/2 feel threatened.  While the other half are telling you how so and so sucks and needs to go.

I’m not interested in club but I would be interested in a Norcal GOAT team.


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## Woobie06 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I agree that applying to University should be about selling yourself and not buying your way in.  Remember, women’s soccer doesn’t pay well and the ladies can make much more with a degree...right?  Well damit focus on getting a degree or 2.  Play rec ball and varsity sports.
> 
> Why is spending a substantial amount of time and money focusing on soccer for a kid that has no professional aspirations a good idea?  Wouldn’t the time and money be better spent on where their talents lie?


I could not agree with you more about education being the top priority.  Some kids like video games, some like sports, drama, music, whatever their passion is outside of school.    To me it’s like saying if your not going to be in a famous rock band, don’t fool around with instruments and singing...should only football players with pro aspirations play HS Football...why waste the time???  Lot of lessons to be learned by sports.

Sure time and money could be spent elsewhere...kids still need to be kids, and they can participate at high levels at activities without it being their profession...I guess as a parent you need to determine where your limits are regarding time, money, and the activity...my brother in-law is a musician...55 and plays every weekend, not pro, spends a lot of time doing it, it’s his hobby.  What else should he doing?  Is a passion of his, for me if my kids have a passion for something we try to encourage it.  Never know what will spawn from it.


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I could not agree with you more about education being the top priority.  Some kids like video games, some like sports, drama, music, whatever their passion is outside of school.    To me it’s like saying if your not going to be in a famous rock band, don’t fool around with instruments and singing...should only football players with pro aspirations play HS Football...why waste the time???  Lot of lessons to be learned by sports.
> 
> Sure time and money could be spent elsewhere...kids still need to be kids, and they can participate at high levels at activities without it being their profession...I guess as a parent you need to determine where your limits are regarding time, money, and the activity...my brother in-law is a musician...55 and plays every weekend, not pro, spends a lot of time doing it, it’s his hobby.  What else should he doing?  Is a passion of his, for me if my kids have a passion for something we try to encourage it.  Never know what will spawn from it.


So if your kid is passionate about soccer but academics are a priority why not just play rec ball and varsity sports in college?  I see 55 year old men in TJ playing rec league games at a high level every weekend.

Again, I respectfully submit that the athlete without professional aspirations should focus on rec ball and varsity sports in college.  No pressure while developing skill in a hobby they can participate in for life.


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## youthsportsugghhh (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> So if your kid is passionate about soccer but academics are a priority why not just play rec ball and varsity sports in college?  I see 55 year old men in TJ playing rec league games at a high level every weekend.
> 
> Again, I respectfully submit that the athlete without professional aspirations should focus on rec ball and varsity sports in college.  No pressure while developing skill in a hobby they can participate in for life.


I would submit (at least in the case of some of the girls I know) competing in club offers an atmosphere of higher training with other like minded girls that rec doesn't always afford. They want to compete against other girls at a higher level while also envisioning becoming doctors or lawyers in a phase of life after college. Additionally the path to playing college "varsity" has more exposure to college coaches than rec level gives.

Old men playing soccer in a TJ park is a lot different than teenage girls rec in CA.


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## Woobie06 (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> So if your kid is passionate about soccer but academics are a priority why not just play rec ball and varsity sports in college?  I see 55 year old men in TJ playing rec league games at a high level every weekend.
> 
> Again, I respectfully submit that the athlete without professional aspirations should focus on rec ball and varsity sports in college.  No pressure while developing skill in a hobby they can participate in for life.


Respect your opinion.  Just don't agree with it.  All good.


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

youthsportsugghhh said:


> I would submit (at least in the case of some of the girls I know) competing in club offers an atmosphere of higher training with other like minded girls that rec doesn't always afford. They want to compete against other girls at a higher level while also envisioning becoming doctors or lawyers in a phase of life after college. Additionally the path to playing college "varsity" has more exposure to college coaches than rec level gives.
> 
> Old men playing soccer in a TJ park is a lot different than teenage girls rec in CA.


Why not seek an atmosphere of higher training for academics so they will have the requisite skill set to gain admission to a selective med school or law school and graduate at the top of their class?

Who cares if a player with no professional aspirations gets a better training atmosphere beside the coach that uses the money to buy the latest track suit?


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## youthsportsugghhh (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Why not seek an atmosphere of higher training for academics so they will have the requisite skill set to gain admission to a selective med school or law school and graduate at the top of their class?
> 
> Who cares if a player with no professional aspirations gets a better training atmosphere beside the coach that uses the money to buy the latest track suit?


I don't understand your first question -- Who says they aren't?  Med school and law school and whatever postgraduate level of education comes after your initial choice of college. Go to the college you want and once you get there setup where your next phase of Med school and law school get you to. Or make another choice once you get to college.

The girls care! They don't just want to be nerds or jocks they want both! Club soccer gets them more exposure to more schools and the training with consistent higher caliber players improves there skills to open the options of schools that want them to come play. More options means more choices, means they get to hold some of the cards in there future plans.


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## tjinaz (Sep 17, 2020)

espola said:


> I think that written between the lines is that Cal South's insurance won't apply out of "state" (which also includes northern California) unless you get travel papers.


It doesn't have to the tournaments insurance applies.  Wasn't there a big thread on here about litigation against the tournament organizers that was abandoned as it was shown you could never prove in court that the person was indeed infected at the soccer tournament and it would be thrown out.  None of the letter leagues in AZ have to comply with any of AYSA's rules (Az youth soccer association)  as they are not the governing body of the league the player's team is registered with.


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## timbuck (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> One more thing, I hate it when I hear about the financial opportunities in the alphabet leagues.
> 
> My kid wasn’t offered anything by Surf or Lamorinda.  I felt a lil’ love from Deza though.  When I inquired about assistance, I felt most were evasive.  I was offended by the process and my kid will never play club.
> 
> I also think the claims that if a kid is talented they wont have to pay is complete BS.  The kids that need assistance should be evaluated when they are around 6 years old not at 14 when they have been excluded from the game...pure unadulterated BS!!!


The financial aid process I’ve seen is that you need to sign the contract first.  Then pay a full deposit.  Then apply for financial aid and hope that they will help you out. 
Maybe it’s different for a coveted player that clubs are fighting over.


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## MacDre (Sep 17, 2020)

youthsportsugghhh said:


> I don't understand your first question -- Who says they aren't?  Med school and law school and whatever postgraduate level of education comes after your initial choice of college. Go to the college you want and once you get there setup where your next phase of Med school and law school get you to. Or make another choice once you get to college.
> 
> The girls care! They don't just want to be nerds or jocks they want both! Club soccer gets them more exposure to more schools and the training with consistent higher caliber players improves there skills to open the options of schools that want them to come play. More options means more choices, means they get to hold some of the cards in there future plans.


Seriously?  Exactly why we will have a generation of weak entitled kids.  So mommy and daddy thinks it’s a good idea to teach little Sally that she gets whatever she wants eh?

When my kid tells me what she wants I tell her that “people in hell want ice water” the world doesn’t care what she wants and life is not fair.  What is the lesson learned by the girls by buying their way into university and pretending to be pro?


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## El Clasico (Sep 17, 2020)

youthsportsugghhh said:


> I don't understand your first question -- Who says they aren't?  Med school and law school and whatever postgraduate level of education comes after your initial choice of college. Go to the college you want and once you get there setup where your next phase of Med school and law school get you to. Or make another choice once you get to college.
> 
> The girls care! They don't just want to be nerds or jocks they want both! Club soccer gets them more exposure to more schools and the training with consistent higher caliber players improves there skills to open the options of schools that want them to come play. More options means more choices, means they get to hold some of the cards in there future plans.


How many times have you been through the process and had this experience?


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## Kicker4Life (Sep 17, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Seriously?  Exactly why we will have a generation of weak entitled kids.  So mommy and daddy thinks it’s a good idea to teach little Sally that she gets whatever she wants eh?
> 
> When my kid tells me what she wants I tell her that “people in hell want ice water” the world doesn’t care what she wants and life is not fair.  What is the lesson learned by the girls by buying their way into university and pretending to be pro?


I push my girls to want things, doesn’t mean they are entitled to have it.  Desire breads work ethic.  I’m also one of the “Street smart supersedes Book Smart” guys, so take it all in context. Maybe it’s just 2 different means to the same end.


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## youthsportsugghhh (Sep 18, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Seriously?  Exactly why we will have a generation of weak entitled kids.  So mommy and daddy thinks it’s a good idea to teach little Sally that she gets whatever she wants eh?
> 
> When my kid tells me what she wants I tell her that “people in hell want ice water” the world doesn’t care what she wants and life is not fair.  What is the lesson learned by the girls by buying their way into university and pretending to be pro?


Where in my statement did it say the girls get exactly what they want when they want it?  If you have an opportunity to set yourself up with choices do it! If you don't whose fault is it? When my kid tells me what she wants something I tell her to figure out a way to get it -- get that job, put in the effort, find a resource that can aid you to get what you want.
In my opinion my kids current job is to do her best in school, so when she finishes HS she has options either 4 year college, 2 year JUCO, employment. she does also have a part-time job to gain extra money for spending money for non-essentials like frozen yogurt and a new pair of vans. We do pay for Club soccer and that takes away from other things that we could do, but it is a decision we made as a family (other daughter plays competitive sports as well).  They also can learn some many life lessons in Club soccer as well, again my opinion.


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## youthsportsugghhh (Sep 18, 2020)

El Clasico said:


> How many times have you been through the process and had this experience?


What process is that -- getting through HS and then choosing college, military or employment?  I had worked during my HS years 20 hr/week, so I knew that sucked and didn't want that, so mark that one off the list. I thought about following the footsteps of my father and grandfather and a couple of uncles and go the military route even took the tests- physical and aptitude. Decided that wasn't going to be the best fit for me at the time, so checked that off the list. I had put in the work in HS classroom and had the options of a couple of places to continue my book learnin and chose that. I didn't think that I would have the skill to compete athletically in college, but was lucky enough a coach at the school had seen me compete in HS and asked me to join the intercollegiate team. 4. 5 years later (time off to earn money to continue to pay for school) I had a college degree and no plan. Still haven't used the degree, but have wandered my way around the country and into a nice little life.


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## dad4 (Sep 18, 2020)

You realize this is just the “ admissions preferences for my group versus admissions preferences for your group” discussion, right?

That is, someone who benefits from non-academic preferences of type A begins arguing against non-academic preferences of type B by accusing the recipients of being unqualified.  And vice versa.  Then each accuses the other of hypocrisy.  (that would be you two)

Then someone who does best in a pure test environment argues for no preferences at all, and falsely thinks he’s above it all.   (that would be me)

Hope your kids find schools they like, however they get there.


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## watfly (Sep 18, 2020)

whatithink said:


> Sure, I expect they do, if they are playing in a tournament, but probably not for a scrimmage. My question was, do the letter leagues register their players with Cal South, if not, then I guess they wouldn't need them. Even if they dual register, they can enter tournaments under the US Club soccer cards (say), and get around it.


No you don't need to register with Cal South, at least if you're in the MLS league.  Our club is not registered.


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## Franco2020 (Sep 18, 2020)

timbuck said:


> The financial aid process I’ve seen is that you need to sign the contract first.  Then pay a full deposit.  Then apply for financial aid and hope that they will help you out.
> Maybe it’s different for a coveted player that clubs are fighting over.


Couldn't agree more with this statement.  Everyone throws financial aid as if its a given, they only award financial aid if you are making less than $30K/year and are practically homeless, at least here in the Bay Area.  If you are making $70-90K a year (poverty line in Northern California) you are rich and you should pay $3K a year.  Ridiculous!.


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## MacDre (Sep 19, 2020)

I want to send a special shot out to H.E.R. for supporting youth programs in Vallejo.  I love how she reps the HOOD!


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## Not_that_Serious (Sep 19, 2020)

Perfect example of the pandemic changing nothing in the mindset of clubs or coaches, or even reading post rules before doing so, can be found in a recent post in SoCal subforum by a Liverpool coach seeking “academy” kids. Amazing how you wouldn’t even read the room before doing so.


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## notintheface (Sep 21, 2020)

Talked with a few acquaintances around parents, teams, kids, etc, this weekend. Initial thoughts are that the overall environment is going to lose 30% of teams YOY from parents bailing on paying club fees. There are a whole ton of B & C teams getting combined into one because of teams blowing up, coaches furloughed, you know the drill. The kids who are training have -- almost 100% -- regressed in almost all aspects. The families who are opting out of training right now aren't expected to come back at all. There was talk about a survey that was sent to a club's families which came back as _more than half_ unwilling to play league games until a vaccine is proven out. At the higher level, the DA dying less than a month into quarantine caused such a massive amount of disappointment and confusion, and the parents who are chasing letter leagues now are more frenzied than ever _plus_ dealing with the unknowns is making a whole ton of families reassess their priorities. (If the DA is so dependent on cashflow, wtf are we doing this for kinds of arguments)

You guys, this is not a "let's open everything back up" argument. We are effectively losing a generation of kids in real time. We're six months into something that's probably going to run at least another six months to a year, and it's very clear that clubs are going to be fighting for a shrinking pool of players. Going to guess that we have an absolute ton of club consolidation over the next year. At this point I'm not even sure how tryout season will work. Tryouts for what? What's being sold to the families? Overall team quality? Based on this last year? That's an unfunny joke. How do tryouts even get held? Okay great, your kid can do stepovers six feet away from someone, let's get them on the B team instead of the C team?

I hate to be so negative-- I have tried to keep an open mind about how we are all doing, but it's funny, the quarantine started at probably the most reasonable time for clubs. We're already seeing the slow motion unraveling, and once December rolls around with leagues postponing yet again, that's when the real problems are going to start surfacing.


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## futboldad1 (Sep 21, 2020)

notintheface said:


> Talked with a few acquaintances around parents, teams, kids, etc, this weekend. Initial thoughts are that the overall environment is going to lose 30% of teams YOY from parents bailing on paying club fees. There are a whole ton of B & C teams getting combined into one because of teams blowing up, coaches furloughed, you know the drill. The kids who are training have -- almost 100% -- regressed in almost all aspects. The families who are opting out of training right now aren't expected to come back at all. There was talk about a survey that was sent to a club's families which came back as _more than half_ unwilling to play league games until a vaccine is proven out. At the higher level, the DA dying less than a month into quarantine caused such a massive amount of disappointment and confusion, and the parents who are chasing letter leagues now are more frenzied than ever _plus_ dealing with the unknowns is making a whole ton of families reassess their priorities. (If the DA is so dependent on cashflow, wtf are we doing this for kinds of arguments)
> 
> You guys, this is not a "let's open everything back up" argument. We are effectively losing a generation of kids in real time. We're six months into something that's probably going to run at least another six months to a year, and it's very clear that clubs are going to be fighting for a shrinking pool of players. Going to guess that we have an absolute ton of club consolidation over the next year. At this point I'm not even sure how tryout season will work. Tryouts for what? What's being sold to the families? Overall team quality? Based on this last year? That's an unfunny joke. How do tryouts even get held? Okay great, your kid can do stepovers six feet away from someone, let's get them on the B team instead of the C team?
> 
> I hate to be so negative-- I have tried to keep an open mind about how we are all doing, but it's funny, the quarantine started at probably the most reasonable time for clubs. We're already seeing the slow motion unraveling, and once December rolls around with leagues postponing yet again, that's when the real problems are going to start surfacing.


I think this is accurate excluding the top level of club players..... I am not seeing or hearing roster issues across ECNL clubs but there is no doubt this situation sucks for youth soccer in general........


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## Glitterhater (Sep 21, 2020)

futboldad1 said:


> I think this is accurate excluding the top level of club players..... I am not seeing or hearing roster issues across ECNL clubs but there is no doubt this situation sucks for youth soccer in general........


I agree with the ECNL aspect. Take it for what it's worth but my DD has friends in two different ECNL clubs. Both teams/clubs have maxed rosters, one with 19 and their general consensus is "this" is better than nothing. Of course, a few more months of this could change all that for sure.


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## Grace T. (Sep 21, 2020)

futboldad1 said:


> I think this is accurate excluding the top level of club players..... I am not seeing or hearing roster issues across ECNL clubs but there is no doubt this situation sucks for youth soccer in general........


On the youngers end though it will be a problem for even players that would eventually play ECNL, except for maybe the most elite of early blooming GOATs that have already been ID'd.  The entire development pathway has been disrupted.  One generation of kids in AYSO for SoCal (say that are 7 years old right now) may not even get to touch a game before club recruitment begins.  Don't know how it would have affected mine if he had missed his Extras year, for example.


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## Paul Spacey (Sep 21, 2020)

Glitterhater said:


> I agree with the ECNL aspect. Take it for what it's worth but my DD has friends in two different ECNL clubs. Both teams/clubs have maxed rosters, one with 19 and their general consensus is "this" is better than nothing. Of course, a few more months of this could change all that for sure.


I think we all recognize that youth soccer will be negatively impacted in terms of player numbers but I agree that the numbers for higher level teams likely won’t be affected; those are the kids (and parents) who love the game the most and they are not going anywhere.

Let’s face it, it’s going to be the bronze/flight 3 and rec programs that are impacted the most. The kids who play for a bit of fun but are happy to take it or leave it.

My club isn’t being impacted because we have a small number of teams all playing at a strong level with kids who are very keen to keep playing but I’ve heard via parents and coaches that many clubs are combining some of their lower level teams and even stronger older teams who have lost players.

It’s a shit situation for youth soccer that is only going to get worse the longer we go without games or anything meaningful in SoCal.


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