# Forfeit points in National Cup



## TangoCity (Apr 17, 2019)

How many points should a forfeit win be in National Cup pool play?  Currently, National Cup is giving teams a 1-0 win and a full three points for a win over a team that dropped out of the competition in their pool.  This seems fine when comparing points to other teams in the same pool, but when all the pools are merged together to determine wildcards it gives teams from the pool(s) with forfeit wins an advantage.  I think they should only give out one point for a forfeit win when they use the points to compare teams from different pools.  It is too easy to advance from a pool that gets three free points in one of its three games.  Thoughts?


----------



## 46n2 (Apr 17, 2019)

Do you like avocado toast?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Apr 17, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> How many points should a forfeit win be in National Cup pool play?  Currently, National Cup is giving teams a 1-0 win and a full three points for a win over a team that dropped out of the competition in their pool.  This seems fine when comparing points to other teams in the same pool, but when all the pools are merged together to determine wildcards it gives teams from the pool(s) with forfeit wins an advantage.  I think they should only give out one point for a forfeit win when they use the points to compare teams from different pools.  It is too easy to advance from a pool that gets three free points in one of its three games.  Thoughts?


Why penalize a team 2 points when the other team decides not to play? 1-0 is about as fair as it gets.


----------



## socalkdg (Apr 17, 2019)

With wild cards involved it isn't completely fair to the other divisions.   As mentioned though 1-0 seems the most logical solution.  Now if two teams end up tied with same points for that last wild card, giving it to the team that played more games might be a good tie breaker.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Apr 17, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> With wild cards involved it isn't completely fair to the other divisions.   As mentioned though 1-0 seems the most logical solution.  Now if two teams end up tied with same points for that last wild card, giving it to the team that played more games might be a good tie breaker.


Maybe....if it goes beyond GD, GA and ShutOuts (IMHO, a Forfeit should not count as a shut out).


----------



## twoclubpapa (Apr 17, 2019)

My recollection of the competition rules I've read is that when there is a forfeit situation the forfeiting team will be in last place because the 1-0 forfeit win will be applied to all the pool games.  Why not recompute the points total of all the teams vying for a wild card spot by eliminating points earned and goals in games against their pool last place team and then applying the wild card criteria.  This also seems more equitable in a situation where a team in a 3-team pool is vying for a wild card spot against a team from a 4-team pool.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 17, 2019)

Was this a year of more forfeits than usual?


----------



## greekgirl (Apr 17, 2019)

timbuck said:


> Was this a year of more forfeits than usual?


Yes it does seem in some age groups there are more forfeits than usual.


----------



## Caltek (Apr 17, 2019)

What about issues with team who have a forfeit game in their group who doesn't have a chance to bring up the goal differential . I know we had that issue in the past failing to qualify over goal differential and we had a 1-0 forfeit game that hurt us.


----------



## Frank (Apr 17, 2019)

It would suck to get screwed on this type of thing, however the team that did get the forfeit win did get a win without playing a game that could have easily not been as good as a 1-0 win.  So there is a benefit.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Apr 17, 2019)

There is an easy way to do this.  Just remove all the forfeited games from the wildcard calculation, and use the "average" points, GD, GA, etc. per match.

In some State Cup brackets sometimes you will see a group with only 3 teams instead of 4 teams.  I believe (not 100% sure) they use the average point per match for wild card calculation.  Otherwise, it would be completely unfair to those team that got placed in a group with only 3 teams.


----------



## TangoCity (Apr 17, 2019)

We had nine pools.  Nine pool winners advanced plus eight wildcards (most points of non first place teams).  There was one team from three pools that forfeited all their games.  So six pools had four teams and three pools had three teams (plus a forfeit win in their pocket, 3 points).

Of the eight wildcards, four came from those three forfeit pools and four came from the six full pools.  One team from the forfeit pool advanced with a 1-0 forfeit win, 0-7 loss and 1-0 legit win (6 points).


----------



## socalkdg (Apr 17, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Maybe....if it goes beyond GD, GA and ShutOuts (IMHO, a Forfeit should not count as a shut out).


I'd change it to Forfeit win being the first tie breaker.  Tango City, did any teams not make the wild card even though they had the same amount of points as a forfeit winner?   I'd assume not since the GD for the above team you mentioned was -5.   Or do they limit GD to a 3 goal max differential thus that team finished -1?   It sucks.  Too bad they couldn't have taken the top 2 teams from each division.  Did you get hurt by the rule TangoCity?


----------



## TangoCity (Apr 17, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> I'd change it to Forfeit win being the first tie breaker.  Tango City, did any teams not make the wild card even though they had the same amount of points as a forfeit winner?   I'd assume not since the GD for the above team you mentioned was -5.   Or do they limit GD to a 3 goal max differential thus that team finished -1?   It sucks.  Too bad they couldn't have taken the top 2 teams from each division.  Did you get hurt by the rule TangoCity?


No team with less than six points made it as a wildcard.  There were a couple of teams with a 1-1-1 record and a positive goal differential that did not make it.  Yes, hurt by it.  

If you gave one point for the forfeit win, then two of the wildcard teams from a forfeit pool(s) would've been thrust into a points tie with a few of the 1-1-1 teams and would not have made it due to their bad GD.

You obviously don't want to penalize a team for receiving a forfeit but also don't want to give them an unfair advantage.  It really seems like one point is the right number and then give them the one goal to help in the GD tie-breaker battle.  This is only for comparing teams from different pools of course.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Apr 17, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> There is an easy way to do this.  Just remove all the forfeited games from the wildcard calculation, and use the "average" points, GD, GA, etc. per match.
> 
> In some State Cup brackets sometimes you will see a group with only 3 teams instead of 4 teams.  I believe (not 100% sure) they use the average point per match for wild card calculation.  Otherwise, it would be completely unfair to those team that got placed in a group with only 3 teams.


https://cysa.affinitysoccer.com/tour/public/info/schedule_results2.asp?sessionguid=&flightguid=EC2FC29C-5EF9-497A-BB49-A20C814183F1&roundtype=1&sortby=Group&tournamentguid=19B65B81-D47E-4BBA-B1D6-BEFF7639923F&BeginDate=&EndDate=
This is from last year's U12.  Group A only had 3 teams, so each team played 2 games.  FC Premier earned 3 points while Anaheim Surf earned 1 points

If you click on the "Wildcard" tab, you can see they "extrapolated" the points total for three games (FC Premier has 4.5 points, and Anaheim Surf has 1.5 points) in the wildcard standing.  I think this is the most fair way to handle forfeits by removing them from the wildcard equation.

Tango, does your team still make the next round using this method?


----------



## TangoCity (Apr 17, 2019)

Messi>CR7 said:


> https://cysa.affinitysoccer.com/tour/public/info/schedule_results2.asp?sessionguid=&flightguid=EC2FC29C-5EF9-497A-BB49-A20C814183F1&roundtype=1&sortby=Group&tournamentguid=19B65B81-D47E-4BBA-B1D6-BEFF7639923F&BeginDate=&EndDate=
> This is from last year's U12.  Group A only had 3 teams, so each team played 2 games.  FC Premier earned 3 points while Anaheim Surf earned 1 points
> 
> If you click on the "Wildcard" tab, you can see they "extrapolated" the points total for three games (FC Premier has 4.5 points, and Anaheim Surf has 1.5 points) in the wildcard standing.  I think this is the most fair way to handle forfeits by removing them from the wildcard equation.
> ...


Messi, at first I thought that was the correct way to do it but soccer gives 3 points for a win and 1 for a tie instead of 2 for a win and 1 for a tie so it still doesn't change anything.

1-1-0 is 3/2 or 1.5 points per game.
1-1-1 is 4/3 or 1.33 points per game.

if you do 2 points for a win and one for a tie you get.
1-1-0 2/2 or 1.0 points per game.
1-1-1 is 3/3 or 1.0 points per game

When you think of it in terms of win percentage, 1-1 is .500 win percentage and 1-1-1 is .500 win percentage.  Soccer gives a win three times the weight of a tie.  It doesn't seem right to give the forfeit win three times the weight of a tie, especially when comparing teams across pools.  I think the simplest way is to give the forfeit wins 1 point with one goal to add to their GD.  It's not the end of the world, but why not strive for the highest level of fairness.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 17, 2019)

Or just try to mitigate forfeits.  Rearrange schedules as teams drop out. Move teams from governors, to presidents, to national.  And vice versa.  
And penalize entire clubs if they forfeit. 
If you have 1 team from your club forfeit-  then every team from the club the following year is not eligible for early bird pricing. 
If 2 or more teams from your club forfeit- then your entire club is put on the waitlist next year and will be added to the schedule if there is room. 

A bit punitive-  but I bet coaches of older teams  would get a handle on who’s around for spring break before they apply. 
And younger teams might hold off on having tryouts so early if they apply and then their team blows up because of tryouts before state cup starts.


----------



## RedCard (Apr 18, 2019)

In the G05 bracket this year, a team forfeited in the round of 16 since they already committed to play in the Vegas Showcase that weekend.


----------



## espola (Apr 18, 2019)

RedCard said:


> In the G05 bracket this year, a team forfeited in the round of 16 since they already committed to play in the Vegas Showcase that weekend.


They might have been in a round of 4 in LV.


----------



## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Apr 19, 2019)

espola said:


> They might have been in a round of 4 in LV.


If it is the team that I am thinking of, they placed 3rd in their bracket in Las Vegas.


----------



## SocalPapa (Apr 22, 2019)

If you want an extreme example, in the G02 division of National Cup this year there was one team that advanced as a wildcard despite playing only one game in the first round.  How did they do in that one game?  They lost 0-6!

Doesn't seem quite fair that they advanced over a team that earned 4 points on the field.


----------



## TangoCity (Apr 23, 2019)

SocalPapa said:


> If you want an extreme example, in the G02 division of National Cup this year there was one team that advanced as a wildcard despite playing only one game in the first round.  How did they do in that one game?  They lost 0-6!
> 
> Doesn't seem quite fair that they advanced over a team that earned 4 points on the field.
> 
> View attachment 4511


Thanks for posting that.  That is a great example of the problem with the scoring method that State/Natl Cup uses for forfeit wins.  The pool winner should move on, but for wildcard points that team should only get one point for each of those forfeit wins and of course none for the 0-6 loss, for a total of two points.  They would not have moved on.  This is a real obvious hole in the scoring system.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Apr 23, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> Thanks for posting that.  That is a great example of the problem with the scoring method that State/Natl Cup uses for forfeit wins.  The pool winner should move on, but for wildcard points that team should only get one point for each of those forfeit wins and of course none for the 0-6 loss, for a total of two points.  They would not have moved on.  This is a real obvious hole in the scoring system.


Actually, it’s a problem with teams forfeiting.  The system works fine when all the teams who sign up participate.


----------



## TangoCity (Apr 23, 2019)

Kicker4Life said:


> Actually, it’s a problem with teams forfeiting.  The system works fine when all the teams who sign up participate.


Of course that is a problem.  What is your fix for it?  Large fines to the club/coach?  In the meantime you still need a point system in place that handles forfeits.


----------



## timbuck (Apr 23, 2019)

TangoCity said:


> Of course that is a problem.  What is your fix for it?  Large fines to the club/coach?  In the meantime you still need a point system in place that handles forfeits.


Posted this on the 1st page:
Or just try to mitigate forfeits. Rearrange schedules as teams drop out. Move teams from governors, to presidents, to national. And vice versa. 
And penalize entire clubs if they forfeit. 
If you have 1 team from your club forfeit- then every team from the club the following year is not eligible for early bird pricing. 
If 2 or more teams from your club forfeit- then your entire club is put on the waitlist next year and will be added to the schedule if there is room. 

A bit punitive- but I bet coaches of older teams would get a handle on who’s around for spring break before they apply. 
And younger teams might hold off on having tryouts so early if they apply and then their team blows up because of tryouts before state cup starts.


----------

