# Kickball Reigns



## UCLA BruWins (Sep 30, 2017)

I thought I've seen some kickball but today was the epitome of kickball. In an attempt to "win" the coach clearly instructed his players to just launch it toward their speedy players. And it worked.  But I wondered what the point of trying to win that way was when the scores aren't even posted for this age group? Is it so this coach could tell the league that he won all the games and should be promoted to flight 1? So what does this coach think will happen when these kickballers move up to flight 1 and/or play 11v11? Unfortunately this is the norm.  Rant over.


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## espola (Sep 30, 2017)

UCLA BruWins said:


> I thought I've seen some kickball but today was the epitome of kickball. In an attempt to "win" the coach clearly instructed his players to just launch it toward their speedy players. And it worked.  But I wondered what the point of trying to win that way was when the scores aren't even posted for this age group? Is it so this coach could tell the league that he won all the games and should be promoted to flight 1? So what does this coach think will happen when these kickballers move up to flight 1 and/or play 11v11? Unfortunately this is the norm.  Rant over.


Got video?


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## BeepBeep Boop (Sep 30, 2017)

UCLA BruWins said:


> I thought I've seen some kickball but today was the epitome of kickball. In an attempt to "win" the coach clearly instructed his players to just launch it toward their speedy players. And it worked.  But I wondered what the point of trying to win that way was when the scores aren't even posted for this age group? Is it so this coach could tell the league that he won all the games and should be promoted to flight 1? So what does this coach think will happen when these kickballers move up to flight 1 and/or play 11v11? Unfortunately this is the norm.  Rant over.


Winning impresses a lot of parents because a lot of us aren't familiar enough with the game to properly evaluate a coach and his/her effect on our kids.

Eventually over the course of the season the parents figure it out and try to find a way out. I've seen a certain club keep an offending coach at lower age levels instead of moving them along with their team. IMO this accomplishes a few things: 1) "We know your coach sucked last year, he won't be moving on to the next age group" - Customer Retention, 2) "Hey new parents out of AYSO/Rec, our coach won 5 tournaments last year, he's great for development" - Customer Acquisition, and 3) Keeps a legitimately bad coach from moving up the ranks and you just hope that the next coach fixes the problem.

I speak from experience.


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## Grace T. (Oct 2, 2017)

My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


To me it sounds like this coach is doing the right thing.  Most club soccer parents are completely clueless.  People always thought that it was weird when I was upset after a win because it was ugly.  I will make a suggestion and say focus on your player's development and ignore the team until U15.  At U15 get on a team where your player will be seen.  The rest doesn't matter.  Plenty of future national team players at U10 are average players or out of the sport entirely by U16 at it is usually because they always had the ball kicked to them and they never learned the subtleties of how to be a really dangerous attacking player.  I have also seen (quite often) once "great" players get passed developmentally by players due to this exact same parental behavior.

When it comes to soccer development I draw a parallel to investing.  If you do what the Jones' do and follow the pitchmen on the financial shows you are going to be a sheep in the herd.  What you really want to be is a value investor like Buffet and look at the long term goal for your portfolio (daughter) and try not to pay attention to the day to day trends (fads) that come and go.  Stick with the long term development.  Every player should play every position when they are young.  Specializing before U16 is a mistake as being versatile is hugely valued at the highest levels.  Good luck to you and your player.


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## Sunil Illuminati (Oct 2, 2017)

UCLA BruWins said:


> I thought I've seen some kickball but today was the epitome of kickball. In an attempt to "win" the coach clearly instructed his players to just launch it toward their speedy players. And it worked.  But I wondered what the point of trying to win that way was when the scores aren't even posted for this age group? Is it so this coach could tell the league that he won all the games and should be promoted to flight 1? So what does this coach think will happen when these kickballers move up to flight 1 and/or play 11v11? Unfortunately this is the norm.  Rant over.


You don't think they play kickball at most D1 schools or on the National Team?


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## socalkdg (Oct 2, 2017)

Sunil Illuminati said:


> You don't think they play kickball at most D1 schools or on the National Team?


Watched the men's Stanford UCLA game yesterday.   Stanford played very direct while UCLA was playing out of the back.  Stanford won.   The field just seems too small for male college players.   Almost felt like indoor soccer with their speed, strength, skills.    What is the field sizes for Men's professional compared to college?


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## watfly (Oct 2, 2017)

My son guested for a smaller club this summer and the coach told the U12 kids that if you have the ball in your defensive 3rd to kick the ball as far as you can, unfortunately this coach also happens to coach a varsity girls high school team.

I couldn't care less about other teams playing kickball, although it's more enjoyable to watch when both teams are playing a possession style game.  I would much rather have our kids play well and lose, then play poorly or play some bootball and win.


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## Sons of Pitches (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


We have lived through this.  Our daughter (2002) has joined a team 5 years ago in coast, bronze level team, great coach, teaches them to play from the back. We moved up first year to Silver, finished the middle of the pack due to always being under pressure because we played from the back.  Won our Silver division the next year handily.  Moved up, middle of the pack again, due to being under pressure, last year finished middle of the pack again mostly due to the age change to birth year.  We chose as a team to stick together and are playing 2002 with August 2002 through July 2003 players.  However, last year during State Cup we as parents could not have been more proud, we had informed parents from other teams, coaches from other teams asking us who we were, who our coach was, what beautiful soccer we played. Even when we made a mistake, our girls did not panic, kept their shape, won the ball, and continued to play from the back.  This year we are dominating again.  If you can keep a team together with a good coach it will pay off in the end.  However, it will not lead to a bunch of tournament championships.  Just watch the ECNL championship games at any age level, they are all posted on You tube. I recently watch the SC Blues Baker vs Solar Chelsea G02 game, 80 minutes of soccer and I can only remember 2 times where a the goalie on either team played the ball short, I can only remember a few times when either team strung together more than 7 passes.    Direct long ball soccer, it is not pretty, but it is effective and as SI says above, "take a look at D1 college soccer"  it is primarily direct soccer.  This is not taking away from either of these teams, or their players.  They are among the best teams at this age level.   So please do not think I am trashing either of these teams. 

On an 07 team, if they are learning all the positions, stick with it, they should be able to play any position on the field, even goalie.  This is our first year with a full time goalie, previously we rotated 4 or 5 players.  

Good luck and stick with it!


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 2, 2017)

Sons of Pitches said:


> We have lived through this.  Our daughter (2002) has joined a team 5 years ago in coast, bronze level team, great coach, teaches them to play from the back. We moved up first year to Silver, finished the middle of the pack due to always being under pressure because we played from the back.  Won our Silver division the next year handily.  Moved up, middle of the pack again, due to being under pressure, last year finished middle of the pack again mostly due to the age change to birth year.  We chose as a team to stick together and are playing 2002 with August 2002 through July 2003 players.  However, last year during State Cup we as parents could not have been more proud, we had informed parents from other teams, coaches from other teams asking us who we were, who our coach was, what beautiful soccer we played. Even when we made a mistake, our girls did not panic, kept their shape, won the ball, and continued to play from the back.  This year we are dominating again.  If you can keep a team together with a good coach it will pay off in the end.  However, it will not lead to a bunch of tournament championships.  Just watch the ECNL championship games at any age level, they are all posted on You tube. I recently watch the SC Blues Baker vs Solar Chelsea G02 game, 80 minutes of soccer and I can only remember 2 times where a the goalie on either team played the ball short, I can only remember a few times when either team strung together more than 7 passes.    Direct long ball soccer, it is not pretty, but it is effective and as SI says above, "take a look at D1 college soccer"  it is primarily direct soccer.  This is not taking away from either of these teams, or their players.  They are among the best teams at this age level.   So please do not think I am trashing either of these teams.
> 
> On an 07 team, if they are learning all the positions, stick with it, they should be able to play any position on the field, even goalie.  This is our first year with a full time goalie, previously we rotated 4 or 5 players.
> 
> Good luck and stick with it!


Great post!  You are definitely #WOKE!!  Not all D1 soccer is kickball.  Weirdly the best 3 teams in the country (not South Carolina) all play beautiful possession and are littered with domestic and foreign national team players and believe me they recruit players with the skills to play possession.


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## boots (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


Its rare..but this is what player development looks like.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 2, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Watched the men's Stanford UCLA game yesterday.   Stanford played very direct while UCLA was playing out of the back.  Stanford won.   The field just seems too small for male college players.   Almost felt like indoor soccer with their speed, strength, skills.    What is the field sizes for Men's professional compared to college?


The field has the same recommended dimensions for every level once you get to the big field.  That doesn't mean that they are all the same dimensions.  I will say that Marshall Field is  full sized pitch...


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## Grace T. (Oct 2, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Stick with the long term development.  Every player should play every position when they are young.  Specializing before U16 is a mistake as being versatile is hugely valued at the highest levels.  Good luck to you and your player.


This particular case is my '07 niece, but that's what I told my brother...had me come to give him advice...told him to stick it out but only issue might be if the team falls apart.  New team playing against both the run and smashers and the teams that have been developing the back for 1 or 2 years.  I bet the parents end the season demanding a new coach or walking.

DYS team has similar issues but no where as severe.  Coach isn't a build out the back purist but possession is his emphasis (if that makes sense)...at the '08 level pretty most of the coaches with the exception of the top team in our division (have seen all of them now play with the build out line) have adopted a keeper gets it to the defender who gets it to the winger/striker approach...the top team is the only one that passes back to the keeper and/or attempt to switch in the back and even they struggled to do it given the restrictions of the build out line (if they didn't do that all their game would easily be 15-0 blowouts...kudos to the coach for forcing them to try it).  DYS team has lost more than they won (coach looked so relieved to have smashed one this weekend), parents are also grumbling, but no where near as much as dear niece's team.  DYS is increasingly specializing in the keeper position (he's good and likes it, but the coach and I try to force him to play the field if the result isn't close either way and I try and get him field practice outside of the club where time permits and without overwhelming him).  Problem with keepers is that the training is so different so it essentially forces him to learn 2 sports and one is going to get the priority, particularly if the time for academics and just having fun is to be preserved.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> This particular case is my '07 niece, but that's what I told my brother...had me come to give him advice...told him to stick it out but only issue might be if the team falls apart.  New team playing against both the run and smashers and the teams that have been developing the back for 1 or 2 years.  I bet the parents end the season demanding a new coach or walking.
> 
> DYS team has similar issues but no where as severe.  Coach isn't a build out the back purist but possession is his emphasis (if that makes sense)...at the '08 level pretty most of the coaches with the exception of the top team in our division (have seen all of them now play with the build out line) have adopted a keeper gets it to the defender who gets it to the winger/striker approach...the top team is the only one that passes back to the keeper and/or attempt to switch in the back and even they struggled to do it given the restrictions of the build out line (if they didn't do that all their game would easily be 15-0 blowouts...kudos to the coach for forcing them to try it).  DYS team has lost more than they won (coach looked so relieved to have smashed one this weekend), parents are also grumbling, but no where near as much as dear niece's team.  DYS is increasingly specializing in the keeper position (he's good and likes it, but the coach and I try to force him to play the field if the result isn't close either way and I try and get him field practice outside of the club where time permits and without overwhelming him).  Problem with keepers is that the training is so different so it essentially forces him to learn 2 sports and one is going to get the priority, particularly if the time for academics and just having fun is to be preserved.


Again great stuff.  Don't forget to keep on those foot skills.  The best keepers have great foot skills.  Good luck to you and your player.


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## boots (Oct 2, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> Again great stuff.  Don't forget to keep on those foot skills.  The best keepers have great foot skills.  Good luck to you and your player.


The UCLA men's GK has great feet. He's a good example.


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## Eagle33 (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> This particular case is my '07 niece, but that's what I told my brother...had me come to give him advice...told him to stick it out but only issue might be if the team falls apart.  New team playing against both the run and smashers and the teams that have been developing the back for 1 or 2 years.  I bet the parents end the season demanding a new coach or walking.
> 
> DYS team has similar issues but no where as severe.  Coach isn't a build out the back purist but possession is his emphasis (if that makes sense)...at the '08 level pretty most of the coaches with the exception of the top team in our division (have seen all of them now play with the build out line) have adopted a keeper gets it to the defender who gets it to the winger/striker approach...the top team is the only one that passes back to the keeper and/or attempt to switch in the back and even they struggled to do it given the restrictions of the build out line (if they didn't do that all their game would easily be 15-0 blowouts...kudos to the coach for forcing them to try it).  DYS team has lost more than they won (coach looked so relieved to have smashed one this weekend), parents are also grumbling, but no where near as much as dear niece's team.  DYS is increasingly specializing in the keeper position (he's good and likes it, but the coach and I try to force him to play the field if the result isn't close either way and I try and get him field practice outside of the club where time permits and without overwhelming him).  Problem with keepers is that the training is so different so it essentially forces him to learn 2 sports and one is going to get the priority, particularly if the time for academics and just having fun is to be preserved.


When my keeper was this age, he played in goal in his club and on the field in Mexican league. I would suggest this to any keeper parent.


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## Grace T. (Oct 2, 2017)

Eagle33 said:


> When my keeper was this age, he played in goal in his club and on the field in Mexican league. I would suggest this to any keeper parent.


Great advice.  The Mexican league my older played in the west valley fell apart (which is a shame because they had Sunday soccer)...West Valley Soccer League doesn't allow club players to play, didn't want to do that to an AYSO team (since it would have cost them one of their 5's for a kid who might play 50% of the time), and B&G Club is too rec.  Hoping for futsal in the winter, though and he played arena last year (though more games than not got rained on).  Anyone know of a Mexican or futsal league in the Valley?

The other issue is that the style they are teaching him is the fast keeper style (as opposed to the big keeper or tall keeper)....he's sprinting a lot as a result and as he gets confident will be spending more and more time out of the box (if the coaches can reign in parents who might not be tolerant of mistakes he might make as he leaves, with the goal open), so with games on both Saturday and Sunday I hesitate to put his body through that during the fall season.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 2, 2017)

boots said:


> The UCLA men's GK has great feet. He's a good example.


Kevin Silva is amazing!!


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## UCLA BruWins (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


My son's team experienced the same thing 2 years ago. Most goals scored against were from mistakes. It wasn't pleasant seeing the team struggle when they could've had more success (from less mistakes) by playing forward. However in year 3 the team has improved tremendously and can often connect 5 or more passes. I wish I could say the same thing about my older daughter's team. So just know it will get much better.


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## RedHawk (Oct 2, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


What flight are we talking about??  flight 1 or bronze level players


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## Grace T. (Oct 2, 2017)

RedHawk said:


> What flight are we talking about??  flight 1 or bronze level players


My nieces team is a new team of mostly 10/9 year olds so bronze.


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## etc1217 (Oct 3, 2017)

My DD's team (U17) plays possession ball but it still surprises me that a lot of the older teams still play kick ball and it's some times difficult for a team who plays possession to play against a kick ball team. It's sad but it does win games especially if you have a fast forward but it's not pretty and not fun to watch.  The best exciting games to watch are teams that both play possession, now that's where you see true skill, patience and finesse.


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## MWN (Oct 3, 2017)

socalkdg said:


> Watched the men's Stanford UCLA game yesterday.   Stanford played very direct while UCLA was playing out of the back.  Stanford won.   The field just seems too small for male college players.   Almost felt like indoor soccer with their speed, strength, skills.    What is the field sizes for Men's professional compared to college?


IFAB - Law 1 provides for a maximum field size of 130x100 and a minimum of 100x50 yards

FIFA/Olympic/MLS  = fields tend to be 120x80 yards (maximum size) and 110x70 (minimum size), with virtually all venues supporting the maximum size (although many older European pitches can't.
Multi-purpose artificial turf HS/College fields tend to be 115x65 yards.  They are not as wide because most stadiums were built to host football and have a 400 meter track around the pitch area, these are within IFAB - Law 1, but not appropriate for professional play.  
Youth 11v11 will go 115x75 (Flight 1 / USSDA / ECNL) down to 105x65 (U13) and everything in between.


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## Dargle (Oct 3, 2017)

MWN said:


> IFAB - Law 1 provides for a maximum field size of 130x100 and a minimum of 100x50 yards
> 
> FIFA/Olympic/MLS  = fields tend to be 120x80 yards (maximum size) and 110x70 (minimum size), with virtually all venues supporting the maximum size (although many older European pitches can't.
> Multi-purpose artificial turf HS/College fields tend to be 115x65 yards.  They are not as wide because most stadiums were built to host football and have a 400 meter track around the pitch area, these are within IFAB - Law 1, but not appropriate for professional play.
> Youth 11v11 will go 115x75 (Flight 1 / USSDA / ECNL) down to 105x65 (U13) and everything in between.


UCLA's Marshall Field has been 120x75 since the track was modified a little over 15 years ago.

http://www.uclabruins.com/news/2000/6/22/208269505.aspx

The North Athletic Field can be bigger or small depending upon how they mark the field.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 3, 2017)

etc1217 said:


> My DD's team (U17) plays possession ball but it still surprises me that a lot of the older teams still play kick ball and it's some times difficult for a team who plays possession to play against a kick ball team. It's sad but it does win games especially if you have a fast forward but it's not pretty and not fun to watch.  The best exciting games to watch are teams that both play possession, now that's where you see true skill, patience and finesse.


An easy solution to this (and what the top college possession teams do) is to have a faster 4 or 5 player.  Having a fast central defender will snuff out all of the kickball and slant the possession percentages even more.  I saw a possession team two weeks ago hold a good kickball team to 3 total shots all game and they held over 80% possession.  Kickball teams suck to play against but if you have the right pieces they are easy to defend.


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## Chalklines (Oct 3, 2017)

The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line. 

If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 3, 2017)

Chalklines said:


> The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line.
> 
> If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


I think that playing STRICTLY direct play (my definition of kickball is playing it direct all the time even when there are better options) hurts the development of not only the attacking players but the defenders and keeper too.  Learning how to pass and dribble your way out of pressure is a valuable skill that most D1 players aren't very proficient at.  The teams that have players at all positions that are capable of this are extremely tough to beat.  You can't pressure them without getting counterattacked quickly.  The best teams can beat you in multiple ways but the way that they hurt you the most is by forcing you to chase because they are possessing the ball.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2017)

Chalklines said:


> The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line.
> 
> If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


While understanding the developmental points of possession and not booting the ball (which as noted by Makeaplay will result in a better winning team all around), this rings true. At what point are kids taught (developed) to win? Or does the "beautiful game" trump this?

It reminds me of a time I played my MIL in tennis, an avid player that had been playing for decades, and was tops in her club. I beat her easily despite not having picked up a racket in years. She claimed that the only reason I won was because I did not properly return the ball, and my shots were erratic (all true). But I followed the rules of tennis and won. (so called, ugly win.)
Just like the self-proclaimed elite clubs that complain when they are beaten by a team who doesn't play to their "beautiful game"/possession only standards. 

Beyond development, the point of the game is to win. Imagine Aaron Rodgers being chastised for throwing all those (kickball) hail Marys to win games. I guess he wasn't developed well enough to know better.


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## UCLA BruWins (Oct 3, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I think that playing STRICTLY direct play (my definition of kickball is playing it direct all the time even when there are better options) hurts the development of not only the attacking players but the defenders and keeper too.  Learning how to pass and dribble your way out of pressure is a valuable skill that most D1 players aren't very proficient at.  The teams that have players at all positions that are capable of this are extremely tough to beat.  You can't pressure them without getting counterattacked quickly.  The best teams can beat you in multiple ways but the way that they hurt you the most is by forcing you to chase because they are possessing the ball.


My take is that in order for the US to be more successful internationally, more possession (as opposed to direct) soccer must be played.  Doesn't US Soccer believe the same thing? Why else would the buildout lines for the younger ages be implemented?  Although I've seen a few coaches "circumvent" the rules re: keepers punting and the buildout line, these rules should still help the younger generation with possession.  So if more kids played possession style soccer wouldn't that help the future of US Soccer?


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## Grace T. (Oct 3, 2017)

MakeAPlay said:


> I think that playing STRICTLY direct play (my definition of kickball is playing it direct all the time even when there are better options) hurts the development of not only the attacking players but the defenders and keeper too.  Learning how to pass and dribble your way out of pressure is a valuable skill that most D1 players aren't very proficient at.  The teams that have players at all positions that are capable of this are extremely tough to beat.  You can't pressure them without getting counterattacked quickly.  The best teams can beat you in multiple ways but the way that they hurt you the most is by forcing you to chase because they are possessing the ball.


The problem being, of course, that it takes kids a long time to develop those skills, as seen not just from my comments but some of the other ones.


coachrefparent said:


> While understanding the developmental points of possession and not booting the ball (which as noted by Makeaplay will result in a better winning team all around), this rings true. At what point are kids taught (developed) to win? Or does the "beautiful game" trump this?
> 
> It reminds me of a time I played my MIL in tennis, an avid player that had been playing for decades, and was tops in her club. I beat her easily despite not having picked up a racket in years. She claimed that the only reason I won was because I did not properly return the ball, and my shots were erratic (all true). But I followed the rules of tennis and won. (so called, ugly win.)
> Just like the self-proclaimed elite clubs that complain when they are beaten by a team who doesn't play to their "beautiful game"/possession only standards.
> ...



A few things...first of all we are talking about kids here that are learning to play the game.  Is it more important for them to win or to learn how to play properly when they are young?  I'd argue in the younger stages it's more important for them to learn how to play.  US Soccer's latest guidelines (none of which are being listened to) is that scoring and winning should be deemphasized in the younger stages.  The guidelines are being widely ignored because that's not what the parents are looking for...they are looking for the wins.

But separate from that is the question of whether US Soccer should be developing a better possession based game. A lot of this stems from the success of the Spanish and Brazilian teams.  And the record in the Champions Cup and World Cup seems to be that possession based teams will usually defeat more direct oriented teams (Exhibit A: the English).  But that possession takes a long time to develop, is vulnerable to mistakes, and until possession is mastered the direct method can often defeat possession based soccer.

Then, even internationally, there's a split in what soccer should be.  In most of the world it's a beautiful game that is largely mistakes oriented...the winning team isn't always the most athletic but the one that can move the ball well while making the fewest mistakes...it's a negative game (like tic-tac-toe) in which the score should be 0-0 unless one or the other side makes a mistake.  In the US and England, it's (like basketball or American football) been viewed more as a positive game...not about avoiding mistakes but about making the score.

I'm not weighing in on which is a better approach.  As other have mentioned as well, you can have winning teams with the direct approach, whether in college or internationally.  But the powers-that-be have decided we don't want that...so short of changing their mind, possession soccer remains the ideal.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 3, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> The problem being, of course, that it takes kids a long time to develop those skills, as seen not just from my comments but some of the other ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree that this is what U.S. Soccer "wants." What they want is that players be taught (and learn) possession soccer. I have never heard US Soccer state that direct play _should be eliminated_ from Soccer, nor have I seen such a thing at the highest levels of soccer. 

Everyone (should) want players that are very good at possession soccer, but for them to use whatever the particular game situation requires. 

What I am responding to is that large contingent of people that consistently bang the drum that direct play (what they call kickball) must be completely eliminated from the game or the win is not legitimate (or "it's not soccer.")


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 3, 2017)

UCLA BruWins said:


> My take is that in order for the US to be more successful internationally, more possession (as opposed to direct) soccer must be played.  Doesn't US Soccer believe the same thing? Why else would the buildout lines for the younger ages be implemented?  Although I've seen a few coaches "circumvent" the rules re: keepers punting and the buildout line, these rules should still help the younger generation with possession.  So if more kids played possession style soccer wouldn't that help the future of US Soccer?


Yes and that is my point.  At some point a sacrifice has to be made in order to teach the kids the skills needed to succeed later and at a much higher level.  It's better to do it early and to mandate it than to have kids learn later.

My analogy for this is how you teach a kid math.  A kid can learn how to come up with the correct answer without learning how to properly line up an equation (winning by any means necessary).  Now that works for the simple problems but once you get to the more complex mathematical problems without learning the basics you are lost (kicking and hoping) and suddenly "hate" math.  If the kid had learned to do it properly when it didn't matter (ULittle soccer) then when it got tough it would be no big deal.

Just my 2 cents.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Oct 3, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> My '07 nieces team is in a bit of an uproar.  Coach has been insisting the goalkeeper usually build out from the back on a goalkick (can go for the longer ball but only if the player is really open or if the FB's are under heavy pressure).  Team has had a rough season so far with many goals because the FBs loose it either getting it upfield or on the goalkick.  Parents are demanding to know why the keeper isn't told to boot it more (keeper getting blamed also for having a weak leg but the keeper can kick long...coach doesn't want her too) or the kick given to midfielder with a big leg.  Parents want to know why they aren't winning more and passing it to their best striker who everyone assumes will play for the national team more.  Parents also upset the coach is rotating all the positions and confusing the kids (with the exception of the GK and the lead striker who usually play their position).  I watched them play for the first time this weekend....they played pretty possession soccer against a very fast team playing kickball and got creamed.  I thought my kids team had the second guessing the coaches bad, but wooh ...guess you guys were right about the parent stereotypes.


Kudos to that coach for sticking to what he/she believes is best for the players long-term development.  All other things being equal, I would rather have my daughter's team play controlled/possession soccer and lose rather than play kickball and win.


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## Grace T. (Oct 3, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I disagree that this is what U.S. Soccer "wants." What they want is that players be taught (and learn) possession soccer. I have never heard US Soccer state that direct play _should be eliminated_ from Soccer, nor have I seen such a thing at the highest levels of soccer.
> 
> Everyone (should) want players that are very good at possession soccer, but for them to use whatever the particular game situation requires.
> 
> What I am responding to is that large contingent of people that consistently bang the drum that direct play (what they call kickball) must be completely eliminated from the game or the win is not legitimate (or "it's not soccer.")


I don't think anyone (or very few) is/are saying that the ball should never played directly.  But the entire point of the US soccer development initiatives, and more importantly the guidelines, is that they want to emphasize possession soccer.  The issue is that often times there is a binary choice: in the case of my niece's team, for example, the keeper can punt or long ball it, or she can play it to the back...the coach doesn't want the long ball unless it results in a clear possession (which most of the time, unless the other team's player is asleep, will be never)....the parents want her to boot it on the 50/50 chance that the fast striker will be able to win it and run away with it.  And when it comes to teaching the youngers, they'll learn the habit of otherwise always going for the long ball or going for the short.  Again, not taking a position on the merits, but it seems clear US Soccer's preference from everything they've written is that they want the keeper to learn to build out the back, everything else being equal.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Oct 3, 2017)

Don't over-engineer the game so that it isn't fun.  Kids should have fun in practices.  A good coach will set up games/drills that encourage possession.  Kids want to play.  Kids want to have fun.  And they get over the wins & losses much faster than a lot of adults.  If US Soccer wants more kids playing soccer, which should result in better play at the highest levels, then focus on the younger kids should be having fun.  If done correctly the kids will stick with it and in the process learn how to play a more possession based game (assuming that possession is what is taught in practices).   IMO


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## Grace T. (Oct 3, 2017)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> Don't over-engineer the game so that it isn't fun.  Kids should have fun in practices.  A good coach will set up games/drills that encourage possession.  Kids want to play.  Kids want to have fun.  And they get over the wins & losses much faster than a lot of adults.  If US Soccer wants more kids playing soccer, which should result in better play at the highest levels, then focus on the younger kids should be having fun.  If done correctly the kids will stick with it and in the process learn how to play a more possession based game (assuming that possession is what is taught in practices).   IMO


Your posts are very insightful.

Of course, you've just touched on the other big debate going on in U.S. soccer besides possession v. direct: skills based education v. directed self learning.  The group that currently has U.S. soccer's ear is very big on directed self-learning or just let the kids play.  That includes minimally calling fouls, try not to joystick coach, no lines in practice, drills should be much less structured especially on the early levels (just one v ones, 2 v 2, scrimmage).  The critique, though, is that it doesn't teach the youngest then the skills they need to play well: skill moves, how to cross, individual defensive skills to be learned outside of the context of team training.  It also doesn't include any sort of agility training or (when the kids are older) strength and flexibility training.  Sure a coach can correct things here and there, but they shouldn't be spending time teaching kids how to pass or shoot properly....that's the responsibility, according to this school of thought, of the player outside of team training (if they are old enough) or if not that's what parents and/or trainers and/or academy is for.  The next shoe to drop is a restructuring the licensing courses....to some extent they've already begun to implement it with the F course which emphasizes no lines and a just let them play environment...but if the rumors are true, some of the shifts they are doing (such as breaking up the D course into separate days), is to lay the ground work to shift towards an even more direct self-learning philosophy.

AYSO, by contrast, is very different.  Their national curriculum is very skills based, even though they don't always have volunteer coaches that can teach the basics properly.  As a result, AYSO also winds up putting more of an emphasis (perhaps unintentionally) on direct soccer as well.  Yet strangely, AYSO is the one that deemphasizes winning (skills based and direct being more geared towards producing learning results) v. US soccer (which despite the guideline recommendations still is competitive soccer even at the lower levels, and that competition in turn makes it harder to introduce either a possession-based or skills-based education).

^-\__/-^


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## Bananacorner (Oct 3, 2017)

I've been shocked at what our coach has been able to do with a group of "barely recreational, small and/or unskilled or both, not particularly athletic" girls who are 8 and 9 years old.  Some of these girls could barely dribble, much less pass to another player accurately.  And receiving a pass?  Maybe if it bumped up against their shins (as they stood flat-footed gaping at it).  The team started 1-2 years behind everyone (didn't start until U10) and didn't play Spring soccer.  

By their 5th game in Fall, they are building it out of the back, passing around the back to switch fields if necessary, bringing it up under control through passing to the midfield or up the wings.   I was watching with my mouth hanging open.  Oh sure, they made lots of mistakes, but the distance they had come from a group of girls who could barely dribble without toe poking it hard out of bounds was incredible.  

And yes, this coach concentrates on fun -- patient, but firm and instructive at the same time. Its amazing to me.


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## Grace T. (Oct 3, 2017)

Bananacorner said:


> I've been shocked at what our coach has been able to do with a group of "barely recreational, small and/or unskilled or both, not particularly athletic" girls who are 8 and 9 years old.  Some of these girls could barely dribble, much less pass to another player accurately.  And receiving a pass?  Maybe if it bumped up against their shins (as they stood flat-footed gaping at it).  The team started 1-2 years behind everyone (didn't start until U10) and didn't play Spring soccer.
> 
> By their 5th game in Fall, they are building it out of the back, passing around the back to switch fields if necessary, bringing it up under control through passing to the midfield or up the wings.   I was watching with my mouth hanging open.  Oh sure, they made lots of mistakes, but the distance they had come from a group of girls who could barely dribble without toe poking it hard out of bounds was incredible.
> 
> And yes, this coach concentrates on fun -- patient, but firm and instructive at the same time. Its amazing to me.



So they are playing with the build out line?  "passing around the back to switch fields"...if I might ask, are they using the keeper to switch it out from one end to the other?  One of the side effects of the build out line is that it also teaches the players on the other team to pressure high (you've basically got 3 players ready to rush across the build out line and swarm the defender who is left with the option of booting it down the line, kicking it out, or dribbling).  Have seen few teams able to do the switch without it turning to a one v one against the keeper, let alone a group of "not particularly athletic girls." What's your secret?


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## Bananacorner (Oct 3, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> So they are playing with the build out line?  "passing around the back to switch fields"...if I might ask, are they using the keeper to switch it out from one end to the other?  One of the side effects of the build out line is that it also teaches the players on the other team to pressure high (you've basically got 3 players ready to rush across the build out line and swarm the defender who is left with the option of booting it down the line, kicking it out, or dribbling).  Have seen few teams able to do the switch without it turning to a one v one against the keeper, let alone a group of "not particularly athletic girls." What's your secret?


Rondos, rondos, and more rondos.  Ha, partly kidding, but it does seem to help the girls learn how to pass well under pressure.
Certainly they aren't able to switch fields at any time, and there are still tons of mistakes, but yes, I saw them switch around the back using the keeper (who is the most athletic kid on the team), and also without the keeper (when there was clumping on one side of the field, inconsistent pressure).  This wasn't after the goalie had the ball -- this is after it had been passed back to relieve pressure and then passed around to the other side.  This wasn't meant as a endorsement of the build out line, rather just a comment on how I'm now convinced that any team can learn how to play decent possession soccer with the right coaching.


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## MakeAPlay (Oct 3, 2017)

Bananacorner said:


> .  This wasn't meant as a endorsement of the build out line, rather just a comment on how I'm now convinced that any team can learn how to play decent possession soccer with the right coaching.


Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 3, 2017)

Went to GDA game recently Surf and Slammers, plenty of kickball to be had.


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## MWN (Oct 3, 2017)

Dargle said:


> UCLA's Marshall Field has been 120x75 since the track was modified a little over 15 years ago.
> http://www.uclabruins.com/news/2000/6/22/208269505.aspx


With regard to Marshall Field, the grass area may support that size at its very maximum, but the Google Earth imagery shows about 118x72.


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## boots (Oct 3, 2017)

etc1217 said:


> My DD's team (U17) plays possession ball but it still surprises me that a lot of the older teams still play kick ball and it's some times difficult for a team who plays possession to play against a kick ball team. It's sad but it does win games especially if you have a fast forward but it's not pretty and not fun to watch.  The best exciting games to watch are teams that both play possession, now that's where you see true skill, patience and finesse.


It's initially difficult for teams (mostly parents) but with time,  the kids who who learn to value the ball may be probably are suited will inherently  the ball ithe possession team players that has learned to value the ball


Chalklines said:


> The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line.
> 
> If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


You take this approach to development from the beginning and this greatly increases chance your ki


Chalklines said:


> The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line.
> 
> If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


This is called Route 1 and should be an option for all good possession teams.


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## boots (Oct 3, 2017)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> Don't over-engineer the game so that it isn't fun.  Kids should have fun in practices.  A good coach will set up games/drills that encourage possession.  Kids want to play.  Kids want to have fun.  And they get over the wins & losses much faster than a lot of adults.  If US Soccer wants more kids playing soccer, which should result in better play at the highest levels, then focus on the younger kids should be having fun.  If done correctly the kids will stick with it and in the process learn how to play a more possession based game (assuming that possession is what is taught in practices).   IMO


Great Post


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## growingpains (Oct 5, 2017)

At what point/age group should you start simply playing what the defense gives you? 

I think there are different types of kickball:
1) players that have no idea what they're doing and just kicking the ball to stop an attack.

2) players that intentionally kick the ball to an upfield player or to open space where they have an advantage. 

Rarely will you see teams win using #1 because they just end up kicking the ball out of bounds and turn the ball over. However, with #2, of they're beating you that way, don't blame them, blame your coach for not teaching them how to play defense, blame your coach for putting your fastest and most skilled players at forward instead of on defense. Blame your defenders for playing too high. These are usually 50/50 balls where your defender should have a chance on it and should be winning and launching counters.

Our DD's previous coach was very focused on possession soccer and building out the back - which I genuinely appreciate and believe it is a critical skill to have. But he would yell at her for not passing to feet to her mids or keeper every time when the reality was that none of her teammates were open nor moving so a pass to feet would not work. the defense had already stacked the box and a pass back to keeper would've likely ended up getting stolen. So instead she looks upfield and sees the defenders were all playing way too high and drops it just ahead of the forward so she could easily run it down and get 1v1 with the keeper.

After a couple of plays like these the other coach started to tell his defenders to drop back, which opened up the midfield... making it easier to find passes inside and build up the play.

to be honest, I think it's pretty lame to be complaining about losing because the other team played "kickball" and your team played possession. It's a really poor excuse. Teams who play "kickball" in the #1 sense generally don't win against any type of talented team. And those who play only #2 and can't build out the back - if you lose to them, it's because your defenders are lacking (speed/skill/strength) and your offense is not winning the ball vs their defenders (who aren't skilled enough to control play out the back). If their defenders can't control the ball well enough to make a pass to feet, your fwds and mids should be able to easily steal the ball for a shot on goal, no? 

Possession soccer/building out the back is amazing to watch, but again, you really have to be able to play what the defense is giving you, you can't be one dimensional.


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## xav10 (Oct 5, 2017)

Chalklines said:


> The point of playing is to win. At some point you need to let the horses loose and win a game now instead of 3 years down the line.
> 
> If it takes a "kick ball" to give the best player on the field an opportunity to score, why not and why not more often?


It depends on if you're taking a developmental approach to the game, or not. We don't concern ourselves with the "development" concept so much in baseball or basketball or football, it's true. Kids have leagues and they play to win games. I think with soccer, however, much of the discussion, and the reason for leagues such as DA and SCDSL, is to "develop" players so we can compete with the best in the world, as we do in those other sports. Kicking to the fast kid up top ensures that you don't develop offensive or tactical skills, because when that kid's older they won't be as clearly stronger and/or faster than the others and the tactical game will have lost out. The US will keep raising inferior soccer players, as we do now (at least the males, not the females).


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## Grace T. (Oct 5, 2017)

growingpains said:


> At what point/age group should you start simply playing what the defense gives you?
> 
> I think there are different types of kickball:
> 1) players that have no idea what they're doing and just kicking the ball to stop an attack.
> ...



You make a lot of really great points.  And in theory this is what the build up line should do.  The buildup line forces the team on defense (D) to press high.  That's why many of the coaches for the offensive team (O) go to the defender who passes it long to the CF or winger (your #2) in a formerly offside position.DYS team for example had a game where they went up by several points in the half to nothing doing this strategy until the opposite coach (D) realizes his defensive line should fall back and play to the build out line, leaving the middle open.  Leaving the mid open then left the O team with lots of room to play a passing game, which was a thing of beauty, wowing formerly skeptical parents, even though the score held much more in check than it did the first half.  The problem for the D team then, however, was that they couldn't adjust again...because they are 9 (for the most part)....which is another reason why the build up line doesn't work and why your point is great when it comes to the olders, but not when it comes to the youngers.  Most at that age aren't that complex.  Many are coming out of AYSO where your #1 is all they know.  The expectation that they'll have to learn both forms of soccer, and be able to know when to apply one v. another, is asking a bit much, if you are talking about under 12s.  The direct form is easier to learn....doesn't need a whole lot of explaining....which is why some coaches who are dedicated to possession based game focus on it near exclusively.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 5, 2017)

xav10 said:


> It depends on if you're taking a developmental approach to the game, or not. We don't concern ourselves with the "development" concept so much in baseball or basketball or football, it's true. Kids have leagues and they play to win games. I think with soccer, however, much of the discussion, and the reason for leagues such as DA and SCDSL, is to "develop" players so we can compete with the best in the world, as we do in those other sports. Kicking to the fast kid up top ensures that you don't develop offensive or tactical skills, because when that kid's older they won't be as clearly stronger and/or faster than the others and the tactical game will have lost out. The US will keep raising inferior soccer players, as we do now (at least the males, not the females).


The reason for DA is grabbing money from any and all involved.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 5, 2017)

growingpains said:


> At what point/age group should you start simply playing what the defense gives you?
> 
> I think there are different types of kickball:
> 1) players that have no idea what they're doing and just kicking the ball to stop an attack.
> ...


I guess there are a lot of different definitions of "kickball." I wouldn't place your #2 in that category. Some think kickball is any time you don't play possession building out from the back. But as you note, this is not always possible against skilled teams that press and control the middle.

"Kickball" to me and most coaches I know, is anytime there is no purpose and intended target. A short panic pass going to empty space or an opponent; a scared pass with no known target just to get it off your own feet; kicks wide out of bounds; long balls that are just a hope that someone will get to it; or the famous 30 yard boot by the center back to no one, that brings cheers from the parents: "great blast Johnny."  Yes, these all drive me nuts and are not skilled soccer. But kicking it long, as you describe, to an intended target that is open, is not kickball in my mind. A long "boot" to switch fields to an open teammate is not kickball to me. A keeper sending a long ball with purpose to his own player is fine. 

It seems lots of these discussions are about kids playing less than 11v11, and I agree teaching and playing build out possession is the best way to make better soccer players. If that means suppressing  longer balls that can often be the easier play, I see the developmental benefits in these young players.


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## El Clasico (Oct 5, 2017)

xav10 said:


> It depends on if you're taking a developmental approach to the game, or not. We don't concern ourselves with the "development" concept so much in baseball or basketball or football, it's true. Kids have leagues and they play to win games. I think with soccer, however, much of the discussion, and the reason for leagues such as DA and SCDSL, is to "develop" players so we can compete with the best in the world, as we do in those other sports. Kicking to the fast kid up top ensures that you don't develop offensive or tactical skills, because when that kid's older they won't be as clearly stronger and/or faster than the others and the tactical game will have lost out. The US will keep raising inferior soccer players, as we do now (at least the males, not the females).


I disagree. So much of the discussion is focused on possession because the bigs sell that garbage to an ignorant customer base who don't realize that the money clubs are actually referring to the customer's checkbook when they say they want possession. Never have I heard a more overused word in my life as the word possession in youth soccer here in the States.

When outside playing as a child (in a country south of the US), I can't remember one time in my life when someone (wouldn't be a coach as we rarely had someone coaching) said we had to play possession. Some things develop naturally in their proper time and order.  On occasion, when I hear parents talking soccer and possession, I think that they do it, not because they understand the game, but because it makes them feel important or better about themselves.

Here is a thought...if there was some a-hole out there screaming at 8 year old Neymar, or at 8 year old Suarez, or at 8 year old Messi to play possession, or to play out of the back, where would they be today?  Having also lived in Europe, I would argue the same is true there as well.

I am not advocating "kickball", on the contrary, I am a big fan of the possession type game but there is no one size fits all. Case in point, one could easily argue that Barca plays possession and RM plays a more direct game.  Which is better?  Which is more effective?  Which team has had more success over the years? Or more recently? Like most things, one must be able to adapt and adjust.


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## xav10 (Oct 5, 2017)

boots said:


> Great Post[/QUO





Sheriff Joe said:


> The reason for DA is grabbing money from any and all involved.


i must not have gotten the memo. 2 kids, 3 DA seasons so far, the first one I paid about $600 for the year, which was less than club soccer, paid nothing since.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 5, 2017)

xav10 said:


> i must not have gotten the memo. 2 kids, 3 DA seasons so far, the first one I paid about $600 for the year, which was less than club soccer, paid nothing since.


Typical lib, where do you think the money comes from? The lower levels of the club.
You are a nut.


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## xav10 (Oct 5, 2017)

El Clasico said:


> I disagree. So much of the discussion is focused on possession because the bigs sell that garbage to an ignorant customer base who don't realize that the money clubs are actually referring to the customer's checkbook when they say they want possession. Never have I heard a more overused word in my life as the word possession in youth soccer here in the States.
> 
> When outside playing as a child (in a country south of the US), I can't remember one time in my life when someone (wouldn't be a coach as we rarely had someone coaching) said we had to play possession. Some things develop naturally in their proper time and order.  On occasion, when I hear parents talking soccer and possession, I think that they do it, not because they understand the game, but because it makes them feel important or better about themselves.
> 
> ...


You say you disagree with my post about development, where I don't once mention the word "possession," and all you talk about is possession. I was responding to a post that says kicking it far to the forward is good if it helps you win and I said ok, but not if you want to develop good players. Sounds as if you actually agree with me.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 5, 2017)

El Clasico said:


> I disagree. So much of the discussion is focused on possession because the bigs sell that garbage to an ignorant customer base who don't realize that the money clubs are actually referring to the customer's checkbook when they say they want possession. Never have I heard a more overused word in my life as the word possession in youth soccer here in the States.
> 
> When outside playing as a child (in a country south of the US), I can't remember one time in my life when someone (wouldn't be a coach as we rarely had someone coaching) said we had to play possession. Some things develop naturally in their proper time and order.  On occasion, when I hear parents talking soccer and possession, I think that they do it, not because they understand the game, but because it makes them feel important or better about themselves.
> 
> ...


Lester City won the title playing direct. Kids like playing direct, parents like winning and the direct team usually wins in youth soccer u15 and under.


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## xav10 (Oct 5, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Typical lib, where do you think the money comes from? The lower levels of the club.
> You are a nut.


I must have read your post wrong. I thought you said the point of the DA is to grab money. Maybe you intended to say that the point of some club teams is to grab money to feed their DA teams.


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## Sheriff Joe (Oct 5, 2017)

xav10 said:


> I must have read your post wrong. I thought you said the point of the DA is to grab money. Maybe you intended to say that the point of some club teams is to grab money to feed their DA teams.


Whatever floats your boat.


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## xav10 (Oct 5, 2017)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Whatever floats your boat.


You do, handsome. I love it when you're angry.


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## growingpains (Oct 6, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I guess there are a lot of different definitions of "kickball." I wouldn't place your #2 in that category. Some think kickball is any time you don't play possession building out from the back. But as you note, this is not always possible against skilled teams that press and control the middle.
> 
> "Kickball" to me and most coaches I know, is anytime there is no purpose and intended target. A short panic pass going to empty space or an opponent; a scared pass with no known target just to get it off your own feet; kicks wide out of bounds; long balls that are just a hope that someone will get to it; or the famous 30 yard boot by the center back to no one, that brings cheers from the parents: "great blast Johnny."  Yes, these all drive me nuts and are not skilled soccer. But kicking it long, as you describe, to an intended target that is open, is not kickball in my mind. A long "boot" to switch fields to an open teammate is not kickball to me. A keeper sending a long ball with purpose to his own player is fine.
> 
> It seems lots of these discussions are about kids playing less than 11v11, and I agree teaching and playing build out possession is the best way to make better soccer players. If that means suppressing  longer balls that can often be the easier play, I see the developmental benefits in these young players.



I agree, I would call the teams that just kick it up high with no intended target (but manage to keep inbounds) Kickball 1.5.  Hehe.

And yes, that kind of play drives me nuts too - but, I guess my point is that even if the fwd is fast, it's no excuse for the defense getting beat and losing. All they have to do is not cheat up and they're at a much better advantage since they're facing the incoming ball instead of looking over their shoulder.

I would agree that only teaching the kids this is doing them a huge disservice. The calmness and controlled play is essential to next level play. Players need to develop a great, controlled first touch, be able to protect the ball from opponents, find their teammates, and deliver the ball - to feet or space as appropriate.


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## jose (Oct 7, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> While understanding the developmental points of possession and not booting the ball (which as noted by Makeaplay will result in a better winning team all around), this rings true. At what point are kids taught (developed) to win? Or does the "beautiful game" trump this?
> 
> It reminds me of a time I played my MIL in tennis, an avid player that had been playing for decades, and was tops in her club. I beat her easily despite not having picked up a racket in years. She claimed that the only reason I won was because I did not properly return the ball, and my shots were erratic (all true). But I followed the rules of tennis and won. (so called, ugly win.)
> Just like the self-proclaimed elite clubs that complain when they are beaten by a team who doesn't play to their "beautiful game"/possession only standards.
> ...


kinda how sweden beat the USWNT in the olympics. you can cry all day long like Nope Solo did but they played to win and they did.


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## jose (Oct 7, 2017)

growingpains said:


> At what point/age group should you start simply playing what the defense gives you?
> 
> I think there are different types of kickball:
> 1) players that have no idea what they're doing and just kicking the ball to stop an attack.
> ...


perfectly said. just like in football establish the run. when they stack the box go deep.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 8, 2017)

if you worry about this you will send your kids entire soccer experience frustrated . If you see a team at U8 kicking it forward to Billy, Jose, or Lisa you can bet your a** you are going to see that same team at U14 15 17 still kicking forward to someone. It is the culture of the team, they know different and the coach has instructed this way his entire soccer life. If you see U8's trying to play it out of the back you will see that team at U14 15 17 playing out of the back. At a game today where kickball has "rained" supreme since U10. It still "rains" supreme for this team. When you hear the coach yell at his team , "get in the box , everyone get in the box... that is why we practice that play ... you known kick ball reigns and rules that team ". ( 'practice that play' punting end to end is a "play"?) Oh yeah, It was when the goalie was punting it out of his box. Worse the coach schedules to use this small a** field where next to it 12 year old girls are playing on a full size field. Talk about playing to your strengths . A group of kids who at 12 v12 barely fit on the field and your team plays kick ball ( set and match) . More like, the goalie as really taking PKs from a drop kick.  Some times it works with the right bounce and when it does the crowd goes wild. If you find this team just know what you are in for and plan your day accordingly . We did not have time to go outlet shopping after the game but did pick up some wonderful road side strawberries  and avocados 5/1$ ( still in season remarkable). some times you have to play to your strengths.


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## espola (Oct 8, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> if you worry about this you will send your kids entire soccer experience frustrated . If you see a team at U8 kicking it forward to Billy, Jose, or Lisa you can bet your a** you are going to see that same team at U14 15 17 still kicking forward to someone. It is the culture of the team, they know different and the coach has instructed this way his entire soccer life. If you see U8's trying to play it out of the back you will see that team at U14 15 17 playing out of the back. At a game today where kickball has "rained" supreme since U10. It still "rains" supreme for this team. When you hear the coach yell at his team , "get in the box , everyone get in the box... that is why we practice that play ... you known kick ball reigns and rules that team ". ( 'practice that play' punting end to end is a "play"?) Oh yeah, It was when the goalie was punting it out of his box. Worse the coach schedules to use this small a** field where next to it 12 year old girls are playing on a full size field. Talk about playing to your strengths . A group of kids who at 12 v12 barely fit on the field and your team plays kick ball ( set and match) . More like, the goalie as really taking PKs from a drop kick.  Some times it works with the right bounce and when it does the crowd goes wild. If you find this team just know what you are in for and plan your day accordingly . We did not have time to go outlet shopping after the game but did pick up some wonderful road side strawberries  and avocados 5/1$ ( still in season remarkable). some times you have to play to your strengths.


Nonsense.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 8, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> if you worry about this you will send your kids entire soccer experience frustrated . If you see a team at U8 kicking it forward to Billy, Jose, or Lisa you can bet your a** you are going to see that same team at U14 15 17 still kicking forward to someone. It is the culture of the team, they know different and the coach has instructed this way his entire soccer life. If you see U8's trying to play it out of the back you will see that team at U14 15 17 playing out of the back. At a game today where kickball has "rained" supreme since U10. It still "rains" supreme for this team. When you hear the coach yell at his team , "get in the box , everyone get in the box... that is why we practice that play ... you known kick ball reigns and rules that team ". ( 'practice that play' punting end to end is a "play"?) Oh yeah, It was when the goalie was punting it out of his box. Worse the coach schedules to use this small a** field where next to it 12 year old girls are playing on a full size field. Talk about playing to your strengths . A group of kids who at 12 v12 barely fit on the field and your team plays kick ball ( set and match) . More like, the goalie as really taking PKs from a drop kick.  Some times it works with the right bounce and when it does the crowd goes wild. If you find this team just know what you are in for and plan your day accordingly . We did not have time to go outlet shopping after the game but did pick up some wonderful road side strawberries  and avocados 5/1$ ( still in season remarkable). some times you have to play to your strengths.


Where do you get 20 cent avocados?


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## Grace T. (Oct 8, 2017)

DYS team is possession oriented but not purists.  They still do directly particularly out of the buildout line, but today for the first time were connecting 5 or 6 in a row...very wonderful to see.  They get corrected if they kick it blindly, DYS got reprimanded a few weeks back for (as a keeper) clearing the ball out of his box into a 50/50 situation down to the other box instead of tackling it and building from the back (despite the cheers from the sidelines for more), they look to involve the keeper in the backpass even if it's now very hard with the buildout line, and their practices are heavy on rondos and ball handling, and low on fixed tactics.  Our sister team in the same club is the opposite...heavy on the direct though not purists-- they'll look to connect the passes...but they primarily rely upon the speed of their strikers who are very very fast and who are very good at rebounding and who like to keep the ball bouncing in the air.  The 2 met again for the 5th time.

Our first encounter we blew them out by double digits with our lead striker and keeper absent.  Since then the scores have been getting closer and closer to our last encounter where DYS had 7 one v ones in the box.  Our sister team has made a lot of progress very fast using the direct method, going from complete disasters to blowing out particularly slower teams (whether possession based, direct or kickball) by double digits, particularly if the keeper just sits there on his line in the classic big or tall style (we've never won by double digits except the one time against them).  And as I said, they aren't all run em and drop em...they do try to build, but they rely very heavily on very good fast strikers and the new no offsides rule until the build up line really helps them because the strikers often receive in a formerly offside position.  If the other team has tenacious defenders or an aggressive keeper or both, they can be countered but it's not easy .  It was interesting to see the two styles meet head on.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 9, 2017)

espola said:


> Nonsense.


I hope you are right. I am still waiting.


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## charlie murphy (Oct 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Where do you get 20 cent avocados?


go north on the 101 my friend.


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## Grace T. (Oct 9, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> if you worry about this you will send your kids entire soccer experience frustrated . If you see a team at U8 kicking it forward to Billy, Jose, or Lisa you can bet your a** you are going to see that same team at U14 15 17 still kicking forward to someone. It is the culture of the team, they know different and the coach has instructed this way his entire soccer life. If you see U8's trying to play it out of the back you will see that team at U14 15 17 playing out of the back. At a game today where kickball has "rained" supreme since U10. It still "rains" supreme for this team. When you hear the coach yell at his team , "get in the box , everyone get in the box... that is why we practice that play ... you known kick ball reigns and rules that team ". ( 'practice that play' punting end to end is a "play"?) Oh yeah, It was when the goalie was punting it out of his box. Worse the coach schedules to use this small a** field where next to it 12 year old girls are playing on a full size field. Talk about playing to your strengths . A group of kids who at 12 v12 barely fit on the field and your team plays kick ball ( set and match) . More like, the goalie as really taking PKs from a drop kick.  Some times it works with the right bounce and when it does the crowd goes wild. If you find this team just know what you are in for and plan your day accordingly . We did not have time to go outlet shopping after the game but did pick up some wonderful road side strawberries  and avocados 5/1$ ( still in season remarkable). some times you have to play to your strengths.


I note the small field is absolutely a necessity for this play, if it's going to be run effectively.  Because on a large field the counter is very easy....the defensive line should push up to the mid and make sure they stay parallel or goalside to the strikers.  You can't have everyone in the opposite box because they would be offside if the defensive line pushes forward.  Rule 11 specifies there is no offside on the goalkick, but off the punt a player can and should be called for the offense.  The counter to the counter is that you have very fast strikers line up at the mid and wait for the keeper to release the ball, then run over the line...but for it to work the field has to be small or a fast keeper (if positioned properly, and even outside the box) will either catch, tackle or (if out of the box) head it back before the striker can get there.  But with a small field, you can stay onside and just have all your players rush forward as part of that play.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 9, 2017)

Grace T. said:


> I note the small field is absolutely a necessity for this play, if it's going to be run effectively.  Because on a large field the counter is very easy....the defensive line should push up to the mid and make sure they stay parallel or goalside to the strikers.  You can't have everyone in the opposite box because they would be offside if the defensive line pushes forward.  Rule 11 specifies there is no offside on the goalkick, but off the punt a player can and should be called for the offense.  The counter to the counter is that you have very fast strikers line up at the mid and wait for the keeper to release the ball, then run over the line...but for it to work the field has to be small or a fast keeper (if positioned properly, and even outside the box) will either catch, tackle or (if out of the box) head it back before the striker can get there.  But with a small field, you can stay onside and just have all your players rush forward as part of that play.


Uh, OK.


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## Grace T. (Oct 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> Uh, OK.


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## Toch (Oct 10, 2017)

Be concerned with the coaching that fits your child. If you are focused on others you will miss out on your own kids growth. It’s good to be able to identify the different styles and find a coach who’s style fits your idea of how the game should be played and enjoy.


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## jimbohonky (Oct 10, 2017)

We have a small 04 boys team. All prepubescent, all talented but muscled off the ball by other teams with kids 8 inches taller than all of ours. We play possession style soccer, as we would lose otherwise, no question. Our  style of play confuses most teams used to scoring 5-6 goals per game, as we usually only allow 1-2 goals. It's fun to watch, and we are currently in first place!


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## jimbohonky (Oct 10, 2017)

And if you want to see what kickball looks like in the adult game, turn on the USA v Trinidad catastrophe and see it in action!!!


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## charlie murphy (Oct 10, 2017)

you do not know what you are talking about! that's our STYLE. it is what we practice! what we implement! It is what we know , we love, what we cheer for!  just look at the fans in the stands.... kick it to ..... It's our style.


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## timbuck (Oct 10, 2017)

charlie murphy said:


> you do not know what you are talking about! that's our STYLE. it is what we practice! what we implement! It is what we know , we love, what we cheer for!  just look at the fans in the stands.... kick it to ..... It's our style.


The national team doesn't have a choice.  It's not like they can win many 1v1 battles and make a clean pass.  And when they do make a cleaner pass, the guy on the other ends donks it. So he has to panic and boot it away.


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## Soccer Fan (Oct 11, 2017)

I think the word "kickball" is often used without giving it some complete thought. To me, "Kickball" is when you have no purpose or strategic intention involved behind the reason why your playing a long ball and how you are playing it. A long ball with purpose and reason is not "Kickball" but instead just a team decision to play more direct. It all comes down to the purpose and ideas behind the tactics.

Also, people need to realize that many goals at all levels of the game come from this type of play. Long Balls over the top, in and behind players. I am not defending or promoting the "Kickball" argument but instead presenting some interesting facts that I believe are important in understanding why Direct Soccer is and can be a great thing for players and teams to learn, accept and understand.

Some Facts as I see them at the professional level:

- Most Goals come from loss of possession in your defending half (Possession in defending half should be made when no option to possess in attacking half is there, otherwise get the ball in the attacking half NOW)
- Most Goal Kicks are kicked well beyond the half way line (Getting the ball in attacking half and keeping it there is what's important)
- Most players touch the ball 1-2 times before playing a pass, 3 is not uncommon either but rarely more than that
- Most goals come from 3-4 passes maybe total (Anywhere on the field)
- 85-90% of goals are scored in the box by getting the ball and players in the box as often as possible (being in attacking half most the game helps increase these chances)

I will leave it at that for now. However, I can see if a team has a plan and that plan is to keep the ball in the attacking half and high press to win possession or keep it there than that is ok. If the goal is to look for long balls that get players in and behind the opposing teams back line than that is fine too. Combine this with getting the ball in the box as many times and as early as possible than you have what most professional teams are looking to do. Get the ball, give it. Look to penetrate early, don't lose possession in your half, high press and win the ball back right away. Look at Goal kicks, winning second balls is the priority many times. If you lose the second ball you press to win it back in your attacking half. Possession in your defending half is great and should be taught, but if you have a team and players who lack the ability to play simple, play the first thing they see, or can not look to get their head up and play a long direct ball to counter than you will for sure lose many balls in the back and it will cost you goals/games. Yes, winning is not everything and sometimes you need to lose to learn. All styles of play should be taught but direct soccer is not kickball by definition and it gets that name a lot. When we lose it has to be something or someone's fault right??? It is never the fact that we just are not good enough or better than another team.....

Point being is you must learn how to play the game in all aspects. Building out of the back and also direct play. Teams and People who complain about losing to a "kickball" team can not complain about a team simply beating them. They figured out in that match how to win that game with the players and team they have and opponent they are playing. Any team at any level will play direct soccer to win games if they see it will have success. Watch professional games, tons and tons of long balls....... I mean kick balls.....LOL It's the purpose and game understanding that means something. You will fine teams that possess the ball more than others too......again, both are acceptable and necessary to becoming elite level teams and players by being able to play those ways and understand the purpose and idea behind all of it.


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