# Concussions and who is looking out for the kid.



## socalkdg (Sep 16, 2019)

In our game Sunday (U15) our girl with the strongest kick on the team hit another girl right in the forehead from about 6 feet away as she was trying to clear it.   The girl then took a couple steps, then she hit the ground.   Then she got up again, walked a bit more, then went down again.  Their coach came over and eventually walked her to the sidelines.  Seeing it live was bad, but the video replay was even worse as I was recording the defensive side of the game and the camera was right by where it happened.   One of the hardest hits I've seen to the head.

First, I hope she is ok.   Second, I'd like to send out thanks to the referee that made her leave after she came back in.   What is standard practice with concussions for youth soccer?   Who is responsible?   Player?  Parent?   Coach?  Referee?   all of them?


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## Frank (Sep 16, 2019)

All of them


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## dk_b (Sep 16, 2019)

US Soccer's guidelines PLUS California law that applies to youth organizations (NOT JUST SCHOOLS) require that any player removed with a suspected head injury have medical clearance before reentering.  So the coach/club/team + the official in charge are all responsible (as @Frank notes above).

All coaches/DOCs/parents/refs should be familiar with this:  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=124235.&lawCode=HSC.  Of particular note:

(a)(1):  "An athlete who is suspected of sustaining a concussion or other head injury in an athletic activity shall be immediately removed from the athletic activity for the remainder of the day, and shall not be permitted to return to any athletic activity until he or she is evaluated by a licensed health care provider. The athlete shall not be permitted to return to athletic activity until he or she receives written clearance to return to athletic activity from a licensed health care provider. If the licensed health care provider determines that the athlete sustained a concussion or other head injury, the athlete shall also complete a graduated return-to-play protocol of no less than seven days in duration under the supervision of a licensed health care provider."

An athlete SUSPECTED of sustaining a concussion OR OTHER HEAD INJURY shall not be permitted to return until evaluated by a licensed health care provider.  So unless they have one on the sideline, any player removed with a suspected head injury should NOT be allowed to reenter.  Good job, ref, in this case!  

(and if your club uses the CIF guidelines (which many clubs and pediatric sports meds group do (and should unless they are more conservative), all concussion require a minimum of "Symptom Free + 7 Days" for Return to Play.  After speaking with a Dr who helped write those guidelines, I learned the "WHY" as this differs from fairly recent (not many years ago) protocols which were based more on "Symptom Free + 1 Day".  She also showed me how a kid who may be outwardly symptom free may still have deficiencies if he/she has the benefit of a baseline IMPACT test to consult and compare)


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## Surfref (Sep 16, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> In our game Sunday (U15) our girl with the strongest kick on the team hit another girl right in the forehead from about 6 feet away as she was trying to clear it.   The girl then took a couple steps, then she hit the ground.   Then she got up again, walked a bit more, then went down again.  Their coach came over and eventually walked her to the sidelines.  Seeing it live was bad, but the video replay was even worse as I was recording the defensive side of the game and the camera was right by where it happened.   One of the hardest hits I've seen to the head.
> 
> First, I hope she is ok.   Second, I'd like to send out thanks to the referee that made her leave after she came back in.   What is standard practice with concussions for youth soccer?   Who is responsible?   Player?  Parent?   Coach?  Referee?   all of them?


Initially the referee is responsible. Then it moves over to the coach and if available an athletic trainer(ATC).  If no ATC and the coach tries to put the player back in the game, the referee can deny refuse to have the player renter if the referee believes there is a possible head injury.  Coaches can get in serious trouble if they try to go against the ref’s decision.


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## dk_b (Sep 16, 2019)

Surfref said:


> Initially the referee is responsible. Then it moves over to the coach and if available an athletic trainer(ATC).  If no ATC and the coach tries to put the player back in the game, the referee can deny refuse to have the player renter if the referee believes there is a possible head injury.  Coaches can get in serious trouble if they try to go against the ref’s decision.


It’s not that the referee “can deny” but the referee MUST deny.  It is equally on the coach and the ref - at least according to the law.  The lead in language to the excerpt I pasted above states the following (the emphasis is added by me):  “(a) A youth sports organization that elects to offer an athletic program *shall comply with all of the following*” (and that includes (1) above).

Later in the statute, “youth sports organization” is clearly defined to include clubs (like soccer clubs).  There really is no ambiguity to the statute.  The coach is violating not just US Soccer’s overarching concussion protocol (I can paste that but I assume that all reading this have reviewed it) but violating CA law.


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## oh canada (Sep 17, 2019)

If you're not letting your boys play football due to concussion risk, then you should feel the same about your daughter playing soccer.  The data shows even more risk in girls soccer:

http://advocate.jbu.edu/2018/12/27/womens-soccer-causes-more-concussions-than-football/


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## jpeter (Sep 17, 2019)

oh canada said:


> If you're not letting your boys play football due to concussion risk, then you should feel the same about your daughter playing soccer.  The data shows even more risk in girls soccer:
> 
> http://advocate.jbu.edu/2018/12/27/womens-soccer-causes-more-concussions-than-football/


I dunno know about that study but my first hand experience say otherwise.
Our oldest daughter played HS soccer all 4 years and they one and only consussions during those years was a keeper collision.  Her older brother played 4 years football and there were almost weekly consussions among the teams.  Our youngest son played football until high school and there was several kids each year consussed just saying and I can only remember one kid that had one due to soccer during that time frame.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 17, 2019)

jpeter said:


> I dunno know about that study but my first hand experience say otherwise.
> Our oldest daughter played HS soccer all 4 years and they one and only consussions during those years was a keeper collision.  Her older brother played 4 years football and there were almost weekly consussions among the teams.  Our youngest son played football until high school and there was several kids each year consussed just saying and I can only remember one kid that had one due to soccer during that time frame.


How may concussions did your older son have in 4 years playing football?


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## outside! (Sep 17, 2019)

oh canada said:


> If you're not letting your boys play football due to concussion risk, then you should feel the same about your daughter playing soccer.  The data shows even more risk in girls soccer:
> 
> http://advocate.jbu.edu/2018/12/27/womens-soccer-causes-more-concussions-than-football/


It is not just concussions that are the issue. The repeated, non-concussive blows to the head in football are also a problem. I fully agree with the limitations on heading that have been implemented in soccer. I would even go a step further make heading a goal keeper's drop kick a penalty at all ages.


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## espola (Sep 17, 2019)

outside! said:


> It is not just concussions that are the issue. The repeated, non-concussive blows to the head in football are also a problem. I fully agree with the limitations on heading that have been implemented in soccer. I would even go a step further make heading a goal keeper's drop kick a penalty at all ages.


I'm not sure what you mean by "heading a goal keeper's drop kick".


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## outside! (Sep 17, 2019)

espola said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "heading a goal keeper's drop kick".


When the goal keeper punts the ball down the field, I see not good reason to head that ball. Get it on the ground and control it.


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## jpeter (Sep 17, 2019)

coachrefparent said:


> How may concussions did your older son have in 4 years playing football?


2 in 4yrs, but about 1/3 of his teamates over the years didn't fair as well with most of them sustaining multiples in the same year.

Come to think of it between my 3 kids they have played in around 3,000 or so soccer games and I don't even think there been 30 concussions that I know about, only seen a few my self. 

Comparison to football where I've been to fewer than a couple hundred games and witnesed at least 25 or so with another 75 or so during practices or from the other teams that you hear about later .


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## oh canada (Sep 17, 2019)

jpeter said:


> I dunno know about that study but my first hand experience say otherwise.
> Our oldest daughter played HS soccer all 4 years and they one and only consussions during those years was a keeper collision.  Her older brother played 4 years football and there were almost weekly concussions among the teams.  Our youngest son played football until high school and there was several kids each year consussed just saying and I can only remember one kid that had one due to soccer during that time frame.


I agree that studies can be manipulated.  But something to be careful about with personal experience is confusing "rate" of injury and "number" of injuries.  It's very likely that more football players at your kids' school suffered concussions because there are 2-3x the number of players.  But they are not 2-3x more likely to get concussions than girls playing soccer. 

That said, when looking at the studies that say girls soccer more concussions than boys, it's actually based on the finding that IF a girl soccer player gets injured, it's more likely to be a concussion (27%) than IF a boy football player gets injured and it is a concussion (24%).  In other words, 100 football players get an injury, 24 of them are concussions vs. 27 for girls.  That's a bit different than just saying that girl soccer players get more concussions than boy football players, so I agree with you there.  Here's the best hard data I could find...suffice to say that girl's soccer has enough concussion occurrences that parents should be just as concerned about their daughters playing soccer as their sons playing football.  Look at the difference between girls playing soccer and boys soccer...that's striking.  And, the college "rate" between men's football and women's soccer is really close.


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## socalkdg (Sep 17, 2019)

All I know is that I hope this girls parents took their daughter to the doctor to have her checked out.  Just watched it last night and easily the worst ball to head situation I've seen.


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## rainbow_unicorn (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> When the goal keeper punts the ball down the field, I see not good reason to head that ball. Get it on the ground and control it.


What if your arms are locked with opponent trying to jockey for position on where ball will land?  More often than not players don't have time/space to control a punt/goal kick.


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## outside! (Sep 18, 2019)

rainbow_unicorn said:


> What if your arms are locked with opponent trying to jockey for position on where ball will land?  More often than not players don't have time/space to control a punt/goal kick.


Would apply to both players. Recent research has shown that repeated non-concussive blows to the head are not a good thing. My gut feel is that bigger blows are worse than smaller blows. This would be a very easy change to implement.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> Would apply to both players. Recent research has shown that repeated non-concussive blows to the head are not a good thing. My gut feel is that bigger blows are worse than smaller blows. This would be a very easy change to implement.


I completely agree with you.  Very few youth players - and a bit more college-level - can use their head to control a punt/drop-kick or long goal kick.  My 17yo routinely drop kicks the ball 60+ yards and hits a static ball on a goal kick/free kick in excess of 50 yards (before I hear from some - she distributes short, mid and long, usually short; she knows how to play).  That size 5 packs a lot of energy and I cringe when I see players head the ball on a long ball.  My younger kids are field players - they have good technique with their head but I will urge them to avoid heading long balls.


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## espola (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> When the goal keeper punts the ball down the field, I see not good reason to head that ball. Get it on the ground and control it.


A player who is prepared for it is not likely to be injured by a ball kicked by any means after it has traveled far enough to take some of the momentum off it.  For worse is getting hit in the head while standing 10 yards from a free-kick.  The scary issue on long kicks is head-to-head contact.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

espola said:


> A player who is prepared for it is not likely to be injured by a ball kicked by any means after it has traveled far enough to take some of the momentum off it.  For worse is getting hit in the head while standing 10 yards from a free-kick.  The scary issue on long kicks is head-to-head contact.


One of the theories about the greater risk to girls/women in soccer is that their neck strength is less than that of men (on average).  You are right about the 10 yard free kick - or the errant clear before anyone has time to tense their necks - but that long (Size 5) ball is still carrying a lot of energy and the head (even with good technique) has to absorb that.

(BTW: I am generally in favor of teaching heading and allowing heading.  The rate of "initial concussion" for purposeful heading of a ball is not high (or has not been shown to be high).  The risk of head-to-head (as you note, @espola), head-to-ground, head-to-post are much higher.  That said, head-to-head happens in contested headers (not sure how to safely assess) and I do think the repeated blows of long-balls (sort of like the sub-concussive blows of an offensive lineman) are of concern.)


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## timbuck (Sep 18, 2019)

I’m actually surprised that females play with the same size/weight ball as males. 
A lighter weight (maybe even slightly smaller) than a size 5 ball should be used at the 11v11 but under 18 years old level.


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## outside! (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> I do think the repeated blows of long-balls (sort of like the sub-concussive blows of an offensive lineman) are of concern.)


I hope I am wrong, but it would not surprise me if center mids that head those long balls several times per game will end up with CTE like symptoms.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I’m actually surprised that females play with the same size/weight ball as males.
> A lighter weight (maybe even slightly smaller) than a size 5 ball should be used at the 11v11 but under 18 years old level.


My guess . . . it's never been considered.  I remember that women's hoops was changed by going to a smaller ball (I think that happened when I was in HS).  I do not remember any controversy over that but the small ball was definitely better for the game.


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## outside! (Sep 18, 2019)

timbuck said:


> I’m actually surprised that females play with the same size/weight ball as males.
> A lighter weight (maybe even slightly smaller) than a size 5 ball should be used at the 11v11 but under 18 years old level.


https://sportswithoutinjury.com/small-ball-promoted-womens-soccer/


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> I hope I am wrong, but it would not surprise me if center mids that head those long balls several times per game will end up with CTE like symptoms.


There have been reports - though more anecdotal than a study - of former European pros who show signs of CTE


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> https://sportswithoutinjury.com/small-ball-promoted-womens-soccer/


Thank you for showing me guess to be WRONG.


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## outside! (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Thank you for showing me guess to be WRONG.


There are a lot of smart people in the world. Of course there is a corollary to that.


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## espola (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> One of the theories about the greater risk to girls/women in soccer is that their neck strength is less than that of men (on average).  You are right about the 10 yard free kick - or the errant clear before anyone has time to tense their necks - but that long (Size 5) ball is still carrying a lot of energy and the head (even with good technique) has to absorb that.
> 
> (BTW: I am generally in favor of teaching heading and allowing heading.  The rate of "initial concussion" for purposeful heading of a ball is not high (or has not been shown to be high).  The risk of head-to-head (as you note, @espola), head-to-ground, head-to-post are much higher.  That said, head-to-head happens in contested headers (not sure how to safely assess) and I do think the repeated blows of long-balls (sort of like the sub-concussive blows of an offensive lineman) are of concern.)


Among myself and my two soccer-playing sons, we have accrued at least one head-to-ground, at least one head-to-head, and at least one free-kick-to-head concussions.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> There are a lot of smart people in the world. Of course there is a corollary to that.


Ok . . . between friends.  My favorite part of any online commenting is learning MORE about any topic, whether important or mundane.  I change my opinions when I learn more or, as in this case, I gain knowledge of a topic that is important to me and having more knowledge is always better than having less.  I don't mind disagreements b/c I don't think disagreeing with me is a character flaw and if I can't explain my position, then maybe I should shed it (it is why I never "thumb down" or mark as "dumb" any response - if I don't like or disagree w/a comment, I should say something or be silent and not hide behind an emoji. My hope is that others do the same (I know that is not the case)).

So my post thanking you, @outside!, is totally sincere.  I am thankful to know about this ball and, after reading the article (and seeing it is from 2014), I wonder if the Danes has published any findings (concussion rates, for example (I had never thought about the knee injury risk))


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## espola (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> There are a lot of smart people in the world. Of course there is a corollary to that.


If you are in a program that is serious about concussion protocol, then you would have had a pre-season cognitive evaluation by which to judge changes and recovery from injury.  One adverse side-effect of that, however, is that if they find out you are already stupid, concussions won't hurt you at all.


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## outside! (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Ok . . . between friends.  My favorite part of any online commenting is learning MORE about any topic, whether important or mundane.  I change my opinions when I learn more or, as in this case, I gain knowledge of a topic that is important to me and having more knowledge is always better than having less.  I don't mind disagreements b/c I don't think disagreeing with me is a character flaw and if I can't explain my position, then maybe I should shed it (it is why I never "thumb down" or mark as "dumb" any response - if I don't like or disagree w/a comment, I should say something or be silent and not hide behind an emoji. My hope is that others do the same (I know that is not the case)).
> 
> So my post thanking you, @outside!, is totally sincere.  I am thankful to know about this ball and, after reading the article (and seeing it is from 2014), I wonder if the Danes has published any findings (concussion rates, for example (I had never thought about the knee injury risk))


Sorry, I meant to convey that you had a good idea, but since there are so many smart people in the world, someone else has also thought of it. I was not trying to be condescending. The limitations of text and emojis sometimes make it difficult to communicate the actual intent. My apologies.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

outside! said:


> Sorry, I meant to convey that you had a good idea, but since there are so many smart people in the world, someone else has also thought of it. I was not trying to be condescending. The limitations of text and emojis sometimes make it difficult to communicate the actual intent. My apologies.


No apologies necessary and I did not take it as condescending at all.  Cheers!


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## espola (Sep 18, 2019)

Germane to the discussion -- the terminal velocity of a soccer ball in sea level air is estimated to be about 50 km/h (30 mph), well below the speed a strong kicker can put on the ball.   A hard-kicked ball will be slowing down, and high-kicked balls all come down at about the same speed.

https://www.quora.com/Could-a-soccer-ball-ever-reach-terminal-velocity-in-a-soccer-match


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

espola said:


> Germane to the discussion -- the terminal velocity of a soccer ball in sea level air is estimated to be about 50 km/h (30 mph), well below the speed a strong kicker can put on the ball.   A hard-kicked ball will be slowing down, and high-kicked balls all come down at about the same speed.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Could-a-soccer-ball-ever-reach-terminal-velocity-in-a-soccer-match


How variable is the point at which a ball kicked in an arc will start slowing down?  No, not slowing down (since that starts immediately after the kick since it cannot gain speed) but reach the terminal velocity?  Is it necessarily at terminal velocity when it starts its downward arc (is that, by definition, a given?) or can it be above terminal velocity throughout the kick (the longer that it, the less likely, I'd expect)?  I am intrigued by this but am neither a physicist nor engineer.


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## dejong21 (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> There have been reports - though more anecdotal than a study - of former European pros who show signs of CTE







Along with the concern about straight up concussions, I've also wondered about the subconcussive "effects" of repeatedly heading the ball for quite some time.  I cringe every time I see a player heading a ball that has any kind of pace on it.  I've told my kid to avoid heading the ball as much as possible.  And I know this will upset at least some fans/purists, but I would not be unhappy at all if heading was significantly limited, or eliminated all together from the game (though I'm sure this will never happen).


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## timbuck (Sep 18, 2019)

dejong21 said:


> Along with the concern about straight up concussions, I've also wondered about the subconcussive "effects" of repeatedly heading the ball for quite some time.  I cringe every time I see a player heading a ball that has any kind of pace on it.  I've told my kid to avoid heading the ball as much as possible.  And I know this will upset at least some fans/purists, but I would not be unhappy at all if heading was significantly limited, or eliminated all together from the game (though I'm sure this will never happen).


How cool would it be if they allowed volleyball style spikes?  Only inside the 18.  Only the attacking player can swing.  Defending player can only go straight up to block.


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## oh canada (Sep 18, 2019)

Here is the one good independent study that's been done on the various headgear pieces -- VA Tech.  Head gear seems to make the most sense for goalies, but my kids don't play keeper so I won't tread into an area where others have much more experience.  US Soccer could mandate all players to wear headgear--remember the helmetless days in hockey?--but then that would be admitting that there is currently a safety risk.

ttps://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/soccer-headgear-ratings.html


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Here is the one good independent study that's been done on the various headgear pieces -- VA Tech.  Head gear seems to make the most sense for goalies, but my kids don't play keeper so I won't tread into an area where others have much more experience.  US Soccer could mandate all players to wear headgear--remember the helmetless days in hockey?--but then that would be admitting that there is currently a safety risk.
> 
> ttps://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/soccer-headgear-ratings.html


I sent that link to the team doctor for one Pac12 women’s soccer program and to another Dr who is a leading sports med dr in the country.  I had always heard that these don’t really help w/r/t concussion but that do help with skull fracture.  But Va Tech makes claims about reducing concussion risk so maybe I’m mistaken or they have improved.  If I get any response that is relevant to this group, I will share it.


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## espola (Sep 18, 2019)

dk_b said:


> How variable is the point at which a ball kicked in an arc will start slowing down?  No, not slowing down (since that starts immediately after the kick since it cannot gain speed) but reach the terminal velocity?  Is it necessarily at terminal velocity when it starts its downward arc (is that, by definition, a given?) or can it be above terminal velocity throughout the kick (the longer that it, the less likely, I'd expect)?  I am intrigued by this but am neither a physicist nor engineer.


Well, I am.  The velocity of any object in motion is a vector sum of the horizontal and vertical motions.  Due to air resistance, the horizontal component of the motion will be slowing the whole time it is in motion unless there is a wind blowing faster than the ball is moving.  The vertical motion will be zero at the top of its climb and will accelerate downward by gravity as it falls, but that acceleration will be countered by the air resistance also.  In my experience, the only interval when a kicked ball is dangerous is within a few yards of a hard kick before the air has slowed it down much.

Another factor to consider is that long kicks give a player a longer time to get in a proper position.  That also makes standing in the 10-yard wall in front of a free kick to be a greater risk.


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## dk_b (Sep 18, 2019)

espola said:


> Well, I am.  The velocity of any object in motion is a vector sum of the horizontal and vertical motions.  Due to air resistance, the horizontal component of the motion will be slowing the whole time it is in motion unless there is a wind blowing faster than the ball is moving.  The vertical motion will be zero at the top of its climb and will accelerate downward by gravity as it falls, but that acceleration will be countered by the air resistance also.  In my experience, the only interval when a kicked ball is dangerous is within a few yards of a hard kick before the air has slowed it down much.
> 
> Another factor to consider is that long kicks give a player a longer time to get in a proper position.  That also makes standing in the 10-yard wall in front of a free kick to be a greater risk.


Thank you. And damn I wish I could buy you a beverage of your choice right now. So many questions ...


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## coachrefparent (Sep 18, 2019)

Concussions are primarily caused by the brain rattling and banging against the skull (or more severely, twisting.) The skull at the forehead is a very solid structure that protects the brain. Apart from such forceful blows where there is damage and incursion of the skull into the brian, issues arise when quick movement of the head causes the brain to essentially crash into the inside of the skull.  This often occurs when the head is whiplashed into the ground, or a ball impacts the head and it bounces backward and forward.  The brain then impacts the back and front of the inside of the skull forcefully, causing damage. 

A player that heads INTO the ball (which is the only proper heading technique), as opposed to allowing the ball to hit the head, does not allow the brain to bounce around inside the skull. As the player forces the head toward the ball, the brain will press forward but not forcefully, and as the forehead impacts the ball in a forward motion, the brain is not affected by the impact as it has already moved against the front of the skull.  The forehead does its job to protect the brain. As the player continues the forward movement as the ball sails off, there is no violent recoil of the brain within the skull.

Most kids are so scared of the impact due to poor training, that they are afraid to head into the ball in the same way they will kick a ball. They lock up, and allow the ball to hit their head (like a baseball player bunting), and this leads to a big headache as their brain first hits the front of their skull, then recoils into the back of it.


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## timbuck (Sep 18, 2019)

“A player that heads INTO the ball (which is the only proper heading technique), as opposed to allowing the ball to hit the head, does not allow the brain to bounce around inside the skull.As the player forces the head toward the ball, the brain will press forward but notforcefully, and as the forehead impacts the ball in a forward motion, the brain is not affected by the impact as it hasalready moved against the front of the skull”

I’m no doctor-  but this sounds like you made it up. 
The brain doesn’t get rattled if you are moving your head forward?
So if I lead with my head in an American football tackle, as long as my head is pushing forward, my brain will be fine?

What if I do it right 8 out of 10 times?  But the other 2, my depth perception is off? (sun in my eyes; player knocks my from behind; etc)

I’m not asking for proof of your statement. Im sure the impact is lessened with proper technique.


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## dk_b (Sep 19, 2019)

Because I want to believe that there IS such a device that can reduce the concussion risk, I am bummed that the two Drs whom I asked said they have not seen any research to support the claims of the Va Tech testing (and there are many who criticize the "star system").  If I can get permission to copy the entirety of the responses, I will paste them here.  While these are just two doctors, they are not "just anybody" and their specific areas of expertise require them to be well-informed on these developments (and, specifically, their impact on young athletes and soccer players)


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## coachrefparent (Sep 19, 2019)

timbuck said:


> “A player that heads INTO the ball (which is the only proper heading technique), as opposed to allowing the ball to hit the head, does not allow the brain to bounce around inside the skull.As the player forces the head toward the ball, the brain will press forward but notforcefully, and as the forehead impacts the ball in a forward motion, the brain is not affected by the impact as it hasalready moved against the front of the skull”
> 
> I’m no doctor-  but this sounds like you made it up.
> The brain doesn’t get rattled if you are moving your head forward?
> ...


Leading with the head to tackle in football is not at all comparable. There, you are putting your head into an entire body of an opposing player, likely coming directly at you.  Your neck and body often have no ability to keep moving forward, but will be snapped backward, rattling your brain inside your skull, as well as risking twisting injuries. You have little chance of keeping your head moving forward against hundreds of pounds of player vs. a 1 lb soccer ball. 

Heading a ball that weighs less than a pound, and has no continuing force behind it, is entirely different. 

If you don't head correctly, yes, you'll feel it in your head/brain those 2 times. 
No this is not scientific nor medical, just from decades of play and coaching heading, and observing players that punch the ball with their head.


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## espola (Sep 20, 2019)

coachrefparent said:


> Leading with the head to tackle in football is not at all comparable. There, you are putting your head into an entire body of an opposing player, likely coming directly at you.  Your neck and body often have no ability to keep moving forward, but will be snapped backward, rattling your brain inside your skull, as well as risking twisting injuries. You have little chance of keeping your head moving forward against hundreds of pounds of player vs. a 1 lb soccer ball.
> 
> Heading a ball that weighs less than a pound, and has no continuing force behind it, is entirely different.
> 
> ...


I used to be afraid of heading because of painful experiences.  Then I took a coaching class in which one element was teaching proper heading technique.  In order to do that, each of us had to learn and demonstrate good form.  It can be taught.


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## espola (Sep 20, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Because I want to believe that there IS such a device that can reduce the concussion risk, I am bummed that the two Drs whom I asked said they have not seen any research to support the claims of the Va Tech testing (and there are many who criticize the "star system").  If I can get permission to copy the entirety of the responses, I will paste them here.  While these are just two doctors, they are not "just anybody" and their specific areas of expertise require them to be well-informed on these developments (and, specifically, their impact on young athletes and soccer players)


We have had many discussions here about the effect a thin layer of foam on the outside of the head can have on the possibility of concussions occurring.


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## outside! (Sep 20, 2019)

Proper heading technique does not address the issue of sub-concussive blows to the head. We are learning that repeated sub-concussive hits are bad for the brain. One of the easiest to eliminate without drastically changing the game would to make it a foul to head a ball drop kicked by the goal keeper. This would also decrease the number of potential head to head contacts at midfield. In my opinion it would also improve the game by getting the ball on the ground.


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## espola (Sep 20, 2019)

outside! said:


> Proper heading technique does not address the issue of sub-concussive blows to the head. We are learning that repeated sub-concussive hits are bad for the brain. One of the easiest to eliminate without drastically changing the game would to make it a foul to head a ball drop kicked by the goal keeper. This would also decrease the number of potential head to head contacts at midfield. In my opinion it would also improve the game by getting the ball on the ground.


I have never heard that idea expressed anywhere except here, and the "drop kicked" is not defined in the LOTG.


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## dk_b (Sep 20, 2019)

espola said:


> We have had many discussions here about the effect a thin layer of foam on the outside of the head can have on the possibility of concussions occurring.


Figured as such. I do trust my “resources” because of their high professional credibility. If they had told me that something in the product or some new research does indicate a statistically relevant reduction in the risk of concussion, I’d be psyched.  But it still looks like any actual reduction of risk is simply anecdotal.


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## outside! (Sep 20, 2019)

espola said:


> I have never heard that idea expressed anywhere except here, and the "drop kicked" is not defined in the LOTG.


That is because it is my idea, although I would not be surprised to hear that someone else has thought of it as well. So in the LOTG, what is it called when the goalkeeper has the ball in their hands and drops it to kick it down the field?


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## dk_b (Sep 20, 2019)

outside! said:


> That is because it is my idea, although I would not be surprised to hear that someone else has thought of it as well. So in the LOTG, what is it called when the goalkeeper has the ball in their hands and drops it to kick it down the field?


While not in the LOTG, I have heard this discussed among “soccer people” and parents. Not as a suggested rule change but as a “best practices”


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## espola (Sep 20, 2019)

outside! said:


> That is because it is my idea, although I would not be surprised to hear that someone else has thought of it as well. So in the LOTG, what is it called when the goalkeeper has the ball in their hands and drops it to kick it down the field?


The closest thing I can find is "releasing the ball".  I am guessing that when you say "drop kick" you are referring to a goalkeeper , but in some sports regimes a punt is different from a drop kick in that the ball hits the ground before or at the same time that the ball is kicked in a drop kick.


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## dk_b (Sep 20, 2019)

espola said:


> The closest thing I can find is "releasing the ball".  I am guessing that when you say "drop kick" you are referring to a goalkeeper , but in some sports regimes a punt is different from a drop kick in that the ball hits the ground before or at the same time that the ball is kicked in a drop kick.


I use "drop kick" as you describe (ball hitting the ground) rather than "punt" (ball does not hit the ground) but I don't think either (by term or concept) appears in the laws though I do think the concept appears in the FIFA modifications for beach and futsal (not just the local or tournament rules but the actual FIFA laws)


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## outside! (Sep 20, 2019)

dk_b said:


> I use "drop kick" as you describe (ball hitting the ground) rather than "punt" (ball does not hit the ground) but I don't think either (by term or concept) appears in the laws though I do think the concept appears in the FIFA modifications for beach and futsal (not just the local or tournament rules but the actual FIFA laws)


Both a drop kick and a punt result in a long ball down the field. Goal kicks also result in long balls down the field. If there were to be a change to the laws of the game, it could be changed to say when the GK drops the ball to kick it, there are no headers. Goal kicks could be included too without overly complicating the game. It would be a much easier call than the pass back to the keeper call.


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## Threeyardsback (Sep 20, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Because I want to believe that there IS such a device that can reduce the concussion risk, I am bummed that the two Drs whom I asked said they have not seen any research to support the claims of the Va Tech testing (and there are many who criticize the "star system").  If I can get permission to copy the entirety of the responses, I will paste them here.  While these are just two doctors, they are not "just anybody" and their specific areas of expertise require them to be well-informed on these developments (and, specifically, their impact on young athletes and soccer players)


Here is something new...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181015105446.htm


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## dk_b (Sep 20, 2019)

Threeyardsback said:


> Here is something new...
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181015105446.htm


Wow.  That is fascinating - and sort of freaks me out.  Gonna pass that one along, too.  Thank you!


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## dejong21 (Sep 20, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Wow.  That is fascinating - and sort of freaks me out.  Gonna pass that one along, too.  Thank you!


Interesting idea.

If you look up the actual paper on the company's website and read the fine print, funding for the study includes the company itself, one of the authors has a financial interest, and another serves as a consultant.  

I'd want to see additional independent research verifying the results before I'd contemplate wrapping something around my kid's neck.


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## dejong21 (Sep 20, 2019)

http://www.espn.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/14037403/heading-soccer-ball-equals-football-tackle-force-study-shows

And here's some research not too long ago that got some (but maybe not enough) press that would dispute the notion that heading a soccer ball, especially off of goal kicks or goalie punts/drop kicks are OK.

"The percentages of 100g hits was effectively the same between women's college soccer and American football, which really surprised us,"

And while Nauman insisted that men's necks are physically stronger (which means they can absorb extra force), he is sure that Premier League players are also suffering similar problems. "I'm willing to bet that if a Premier League keeper kicks it out and a player heads it back, they could be pushing 150g or 160gs," he added.


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## espola (Sep 20, 2019)

Threeyardsback said:


> Here is something new...
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181015105446.htm


An interesting concept.  It appears, however, that the device's protection depends on slowing blood flow out of the brain, which might have physiological impacts elsewhere in he body from the lack of a full load of blood circulating after the brain has been pumped full of blood.


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## timbuck (Sep 20, 2019)

I’m no doctor but “restricting blood flow” anywhere near the brain doesn’t sound like a very good idea.  
Kinda like “vaping is better than smoking cigarettes”.  Until everyone starts getting sick and dying from sucking in fruit flavored nicotine vapor.


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## dejong21 (Sep 20, 2019)

espola said:


> An interesting concept.  It appears, however, that the device's protection depends on slowing blood flow out of the brain, which might have physiological impacts elsewhere in he body from the lack of a full load of blood circulating after the brain has been pumped full of blood.


Not to mention other physiological effects within the skull. The idea is that by reducing the flow of blood out of the head by wrapping this thing around your neck, it increases the blood volume (as well as pressure I presume) inside the head and reduces brain movement inside the skull, protecting it from injury. They're basing this off the anatomy/physiology of rams and woodpeckers, which have a muscle in the neck that supposedly compresses the vessels while they're banging their heads away.

Here's a Physiology professor who has looked into this, and basically comes to the conclusion that this is pseudoscience.

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2018/11/08/a_collar_used_to_prevent_concussions_is_probably_pseudoscience_110791.html

And even if this does have a protective effect, these animals have had hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to this. Maybe I'm a bit too cautious, but I'm not sure its necessarily a good idea to all of a sudden slap these things on people's neck that reduces blood flow out of the head while they're running around at peak physical activity.


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## Poconos (Sep 20, 2019)

dejong21 said:


> funding for the study includes the company itself


most investors consider insider buying a good signal


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## dad4 (Sep 20, 2019)

getting back to the original, someone needs to be looking out for the kid.  officially, that is the ref.  

unofficially, the ref is often not up to the job.   if your kid takes a hard head shot, yell at the coach to take them out.  if the coach doesn’t, just walk on the field, say it is time to go home.   

it’s been two years since my son was allowed to play after a head to head collision.   ref did nothing.  coach did nothing.  worst of all, I did nothing.

laws of the game versus your child’s health?  no brainer.  protect your kid.  worst thing the ref can do is show a red card to your back as you take your kid to the car.


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## coachrefparent (Sep 20, 2019)

dad4 said:


> getting back to the original, someone needs to be looking out for the kid.  officially, that is the ref.
> 
> unofficially, the ref is often not up to the job.   if your kid takes a hard head shot, yell at the coach to take them out.  if the coach doesn’t, just walk on the field, say it is time to go home.
> 
> ...


You're obviously feeling guilty about failing your child. But why suggest that other reasonable responsible parents should screw over the team, by going onto the field and causing the coach/team/sideline to get red carded, all  because you didn't know what to do?

Better advice is to walk over to the coach and tell them your child in coming out. I've never heard of a coach refusing such a request from a parent, because it has never happened. But if it ever does, then the parent should yell to the referee that their child is coming out due to a head injury. Next thing the parent know you'll be in the car with their child, never having stepped on the field and no red cards for anyone.


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## Emma (Sep 21, 2019)

coachrefparent said:


> You're obviously feeling guilty about failing your child. But why suggest that other reasonable responsible parents should screw over the team, by going onto the field and causing the coach/team/sideline to get red carded, all  because you didn't know what to do?
> 
> Better advice is to walk over to the coach and tell them your child in coming out. I've never heard of a coach refusing such a request from a parent, because it has never happened. But if it ever does, then the parent should yell to the referee that their child is coming out due to a head injury. Next thing the parent know you'll be in the car with their child, never having stepped on the field and no red cards for anyone.


Good advice coachrefparent.  This advice probably applies to situations where you have plenty of time.  If the next play is about to happen quickly and your child is in the zone of danger again, parents - go for it.  As a parent on any sideline, I would never get mad at any parent for trying to prevent brain damage to their child.


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## espola (Sep 21, 2019)

Emma said:


> Good advice coachrefparent.  This advice probably applies to situations where you have plenty of time.  If the next play is about to happen quickly and your child is in the zone of danger again, parents - go for it.  As a parent on any sideline, I would never get mad at any parent for trying to prevent brain damage to their child.


On my daughter's GU10 team, one of the parents was a pediatrician.  At a game one day one of the girls fell hard on the opposite side of the field from us and was crying while holding her arm.  The Doc grabbed an empty Gatorade case bottom cardboard and sprinted across the field.  He had her arm in a splint before the referee turned around and blew the whistle.


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## Surfref (Sep 21, 2019)

First head injury of the season in my last game today.  I was the AR.  CR’s command of the English language was not good, so I assisted during the incident.  Ball gets played through toward the penalty area, forward has two defenders beat by a step, keepers coming out at full speed, defender pushes teammate into forward, forward stumbles, keeper dives head first toward ball, forward kicks keeper in the head. Keeper on the ground holding her head in obvious pain. CR not calling coach onto the field. I walk on and ask CR, “Did you see her get kicked in the head.” CR, “Yes.” Me, “Then you need to call the coach on and she needs to go off for the remainder of the game.”  That is what happened and keeper is laying on the ground under the canopy with an ice pack on her head for the remainder of the game.  Then he restarted play with a free kick to the keepers team when it was the attacker that was fouled.  It amazed me that a referee Grade 15 did not know what to do when there was an obvious head injury.  We get way too much training on this subject for any senior referee not to know what to do.  Called my assigner after the game to let him know what happened and he will make sure a report is submitted.


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## oh canada (Sep 22, 2019)

Surfref said:


> First head injury of the season in my last game today.  I was the AR.  CR’s command of the English language was not good, so I assisted during the incident.  Ball gets played through toward the penalty area, forward has two defenders beat by a step, keepers coming out at full speed, defender pushes teammate into forward, forward stumbles, keeper dives head first toward ball, forward kicks keeper in the head. Keeper on the ground holding her head in obvious pain. CR not calling coach onto the field. I walk on and ask CR, “Did you see her get kicked in the head.” CR, “Yes.” Me, “Then you need to call the coach on and she needs to go off for the remainder of the game.”  That is what happened and keeper is laying on the ground under the canopy with an ice pack on her head for the remainder of the game.  Then he restarted play with a free kick to the keepers team when it was the attacker that was fouled.  It amazed me that a referee Grade 15 did not know what to do when there was an obvious head injury.  We get way too much training on this subject for any senior referee not to know what to do.  Called my assigner after the game to let him know what happened and he will make sure a report is submitted.


thanks for the report @Surfref...this sounds like a perfect example of a situation where a goalie would have benefited from some sort of headgear.  To what degree, who knows, but I think it's logical to posit that the injury would not have been as severe, and that's enough to justify a goalie wearing headgear in my book.


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## dad4 (Nov 12, 2019)

espola said:


> I have never heard that idea expressed anywhere except here, and the "drop kicked" is not defined in the LOTG.


Who cares if it is in LOTG as of yet?  LOTG have changed before.  They can change again.

The rules, as defined, create a game that causes as many brain injuries as high school football.  (Concussions per athletic exposure.)

It is time to change the rules.  Ban headers, and go with a lighter ball.  

If that means leaving FIFA for youth soccer, good riddance.  They are corrupt anyway.


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## espola (Nov 12, 2019)

dad4 said:


> Who cares if it is in LOTG as of yet?  LOTG have changed before.  They can change again.
> 
> The rules, as defined, create a game that causes as many brain injuries as high school football.  (Concussions per athletic exposure.)
> 
> ...


When I was coaching little-littles, I had a very light ball that I used to teach proper heading technique.  Once a player had mastered the movements, we could move up progressively through standard-sized soccer balls.

All he concussions I have witnessed in soccer games came from head-to-head contact or head-to-ground.  My son, in a game I did not see, got a concussion blocking a free kick in the 10-yard wall.


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## outside! (Nov 13, 2019)

espola said:


> When I was coaching little-littles, I had a very light ball that I used to teach proper heading technique.  Once a player had mastered the movements, we could move up progressively through standard-sized soccer balls.
> 
> All he concussions I have witnessed in soccer games came from head-to-head contact or head-to-ground.  My son, in a game I did not see, got a concussion blocking a free kick in the 10-yard wall.


Most head-to-head contacts come as a result of two players trying to head the ball. Eliminate heading and that goes away.


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## Surfref (Nov 13, 2019)

outside! said:


> Most head-to-head contacts come as a result of two players trying to head the ball. Eliminate heading and that goes away.


The majority of head injuries/possible concussions I have seen have been head-to-ground after the player had been fouled or had fouled an opponent.  I have also seen a good number of keeper head injury’s that get either kicked or kneed in the head making a save.  A good number of those have been due to contact with teammates or opponents that were pushed by a keepers teammate.  

This past weekend I had a keeper kneed in the head by his teammate who had an opponent fall into him because the opponent was pushed by another one of the keepers teammates.  Keeper was clearly dazed and I got yelled at by the spectators because I called a PK for a pushing foul.  The coach saw his player push the opponent and just seemed to be concerned about his keeper.


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## The Ghost of Johan Cruyff (Nov 14, 2019)

I would like someone's opinion on this one: 

A girl at practice falls and hits her head on the hard pack dirt in the corner of the field. Coach and another coach go over to her and she is down for a while. We (the parents) could see they were starting the concussion protocol and although I left before the end, the next day the player was showing off her ER bracelet to my dd and saying she had a mild concussion. When I hear this I think well she is done for a while. Two days later we pull up to the game to see the same player suited up. Ok, maybe she will be the cheerleader today on the bench. No, she plays. Naturally, I am thinking to myself that our coach is being an idiot for putting someone back into the game when she had a head injury. So I make a passing comment to our team know it all parent. She tells me that Coach said she couldn't play and the mom was livid. So livid that she went to her local pediatrician and got him ot sign off that she was fine to return. Our coach didn't budge so she sent to the club director who then told the coach to play her.  Sooo...

1. what the heck is wrong with these people? Are they not the exact people we are trying to protect our athletes from? 

2. Is it not true that once the protocol has started she needs a medical release and a minimum 7 day waiting period? 

3. How can a director just say that she can play based off a note from a doctor who did not diagnose her? 

4. Does this happen all the time and I"m just the only one who is shocked? 

5. Say she runs around with a cracked vertabrae and then she hurts herself and can' walk? Who is liable? How likely is it that the mom tries to sue everyone? (100%)

6. What the ______ has gotten into people. Club Soccer....where morals are optional.


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

The Ghost of Johan Cruyff said:


> I would like someone's opinion on this one:
> 
> A girl at practice falls and hits her head on the hard pack dirt in the corner of the field. Coach and another coach go over to her and she is down for a while. We (the parents) could see they were starting the concussion protocol and although I left before the end, the next day the player was showing off her ER bracelet to my dd and saying she had a mild concussion. When I hear this I think well she is done for a while. Two days later we pull up to the game to see the same player suited up. Ok, maybe she will be the cheerleader today on the bench. No, she plays. Naturally, I am thinking to myself that our coach is being an idiot for putting someone back into the game when she had a head injury. So I make a passing comment to our team know it all parent. She tells me that Coach said she couldn't play and the mom was livid. So livid that she went to her local pediatrician and got him ot sign off that she was fine to return. Our coach didn't budge so she sent to the club director who then told the coach to play her.  Sooo...
> 
> ...


You zoomed right past the part where a doctor cleared her to play.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> You zoomed right past the part where a doctor cleared her to play.


if she was actually diagnosed with a concussion, a Dr clearance without following a protocol is not in compliance with law. If she was not diagnosed with an actual concussion but had been removed because of suspected head injury, the clearance without a protocol (yes, 7 days) would be fine.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> if she was actually diagnosed with a concussion, a Dr clearance without following a protocol is not in compliance with law. If she was not diagnosed with an actual concussion but had been removed because of suspected head injury, the clearance without a protocol (yes, 7 days) would be fine.


The CA law for youth athletes (17yo and younger) is found here:  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=124235.&lawCode=HSC.

The relevant section that I referenced is Health & Safety Code 124235(a)(1) which reads as follows:

"An athlete who is suspected of sustaining a concussion or other head injury in an athletic activity shall be immediately removed from the athletic activity for the remainder of the day, and shall not be permitted to return to any athletic activity until he or she is evaluated by a licensed health care provider. The athlete shall not be permitted to return to athletic activity until he or she receives written clearance to return to athletic activity from a licensed health care provider. *If the licensed health care provider determines that the athlete sustained a concussion or other head injury, the athlete shall also complete a graduated return-to-play protocol of no less than seven days in duration under the supervision of a licensed health care provider*."  

Unfortunately, many treating physicians, even those who treat youth athletes, do not follow the law and many clubs that have made a commitment to better concussion protocols, and may even have published guidelines, do not follow the law.  Additionally, tons of refs and on field coaches do not follow the law.  Some may take issue with the law and say it is part of the nanny state but it is clear and, in fact, the rationale is incredibly sound (as I think I posted upthread, I am friends with the physician who led the drafting of the mandatory CIF return-to-play protocols and she explained the progression in thinking and the "WHY" behind the 7-day.  And that SHOULD START after a player is otherwise symptom free (the law does not require that - just a 7-day protocol - but CIF does and if your kid suffers a concussion, you should insist on strict compliance even as you think he/she seems "fine".  Why?  Because we are talking about brains and a subsequent concussion in close succession with a preceding one risks a sports career and, more importantly, changing your child's brain in an enduring (sometimes irrevocable) way.  (Steps off soapbox)


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## The Ghost of Johan Cruyff (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> You zoomed right past the part where a doctor cleared her to play.


Now correct me if I am indeed wrong but when you have a head injury how does a pediatrician who did not tend to her during the injury sign off on a return when the protocol is 7 days. How can a director who has the concussion training be ok with a return prior to 7 days? Sounds like a failure at every step.


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## The Ghost of Johan Cruyff (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> if she was actually diagnosed with a concussion, a Dr clearance without following a protocol is not in compliance with law. If she was not diagnosed with an actual concussion but had been removed because of suspected head injury, the clearance without a protocol (yes, 7 days) would be fine.


Per the player, she showed my dd the wrist band from the ER and that she as diagnosed with a mild concussion. Her mother actually confirmed that to the Team Manager. Risking further injury or damage over a meaningless game...this is why they started enforcing the protocol.


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## The Ghost of Johan Cruyff (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> The CA law for youth athletes (17yo and younger) is found here:  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=124235.&lawCode=HSC.
> 
> The relevant section that I referenced is Health & Safety Code 124235(a)(1) which reads as follows:
> 
> ...


Stay on your soapbox. Its the fact that this goes on. Nanny state or not, over-aggressive mom, careless club, a clueless coach does not absolve anyone from the law. Especially with requirements, they have to pass a class regarding it. It's not some obscure law either. This is in the conversation when it comes to youth sports.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

The Ghost of Johan Cruyff said:


> Now correct me if I am indeed wrong but when you have a head injury how does a pediatrician who did not tend to her during the injury sign off on a return when the protocol is 7 days. How can a director who has the concussion training be ok with a return prior to 7 days? Sounds like a failure at every step.
> 
> View attachment 5624


Indeed but I have seen it with clubs and teams w/which I have been involved.  And I'm "that guy" who points it out, talks to the coach, talks to the DOC, talks to the board, etc.  As I noted upthread, many treating physicians are unaware of the legal requirements, even many who routinely treat athletes.

Parents should have this law at the ready - it is only our kids' brains - or at least be able to google, "California Concussion Law".  You will hit this statute in the first couple of results.


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

Poconos said:


> most investors consider insider buying a good signal


This is not about "insider buying".  It looks like a self-congratulatory public relations effort disguised as a "study".

Change my mind.


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> Indeed but I have seen it with clubs and teams w/which I have been involved.  And I'm "that guy" who points it out, talks to the coach, talks to the DOC, talks to the board, etc.  As I noted upthread, _many treating physicians are unaware of the legal requirements, even many who routinely treat athletes._
> 
> Parents should have this law at the ready - it is only our kids' brains - or at least be able to google, "California Concussion Law".  You will hit this statute in the first couple of results.


Many?  Name three.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> Many?  Name three.


You are doubting this?  I can name at least 6 but I'm not going to do that, obviously. If it were my kid's doctor, I'd take issue with him or her.  And if it is a club I'm involved with, I will talk with the right person and escalate as necessary - coach, manager, board, etc.   Easy enough to talk with parents on the sideline about kids who were diagnosed with concussions and returned to play as soon as the obvious symptoms subsided - usually the headache - you see it all the time, just as you see kids removed with an obvious head issue only to see them returned to play w/o medical clearance (that happened to my own kid when she suffered her first (mild) concussion - she was playing in Europe and I watched a terrible live stream so could not really see what was happening and could not do anything about it in the moment. She self-reported being fine (as athletes do) and was allowed back on.  That should not have happened and it has been discussed).   It used to be the protocol to return to play when obvious symptoms clear - 24 hrs w/o a headache?  You are cleared to play!  Fortunately, in CA for athletes 17yo and younger, it is no longer the case.  Even the anecdote above, other than the bragging, is not that uncommon.  Or do you doubt that story, too?

(even with the mild concussion, going to a Dr who really specializes in this area will reveal more than is obvious to indicate a brain injury. It also is reassuring when the Dr puts the child through the same exam and you can see how the brain has recovered by the child's performance in the exam)


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> Many?  Name three.


And I will add:  I'm just a guy.  If I can name 3 or 6 or just 1, it is too many and likely representative.  I don't consider my experience or observations unique.  And just like you guys in SoCal are around some of the best medical care and innovative medical thinking, so are we in NorCal with the research coming out of UCSF, Stanford, etc.  And, still, the protocols are not always followed as the law requires


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> And I will add:  I'm just a guy.  If I can name 3 or 6 or just 1, it is too many and likely representative.  I don't consider my experience or observations unique.  And just like you guys in SoCal are around some of the best medical care and innovative medical thinking, so are we in NorCal with the research coming out of UCSF, Stanford, etc.  And, still, the protocols are not always followed as the law requires


So far you have named none.  If you have real evidence of this, of course, you shouldn't be posting it here anyway.  You should present your evidence to the doctors' employers and/or the relevant licensing boards.


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## The Ghost of Johan Cruyff (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> So far you have named none.  If you have real evidence of this, of course, you shouldn't be posting it here anyway.  You should present your evidence to the doctors' employers and/or the relevant licensing boards.


after everything, he said that is what you are worried about? A throwaway line that in context he was inferring that *gasp* doctors are fallible just like everyone else. You are missing the point or at the very least you are distracting from it. 

What I read from this is what I'm taking issue with as well....there is a protocol put in place, into law actually, that every adult that engages in youth sports is required to pass a class which teaches you how to handle these situations. So, just to simply since its a soccer forum. The state made rules of a game. They taught participants how to play the game. Participants don't play by the rules. It's like playing soccer with your hands. Except we are talking kids and long term damage to their brain. But since he used a common qualitative statement you dismiss the message? Looks like you are the one that isn't contributing anything worthwhile.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> So far you have named none.  If you have real evidence of this, of course, you shouldn't be posting it here anyway.  You should present your evidence to the doctors' employers and/or the relevant licensing boards.


This is a weird discussion to have.  Parents on a bulletin board sharing information.  Asking questions.  Etc.  If I have "real evidence" I should be doing X or Y and not doing A and B?  You have no idea what I may be doing and what I may not be doing.  You obviously don't believe me but my guess is that if there are 10 folks following this discussion, nearly all of them would have an example - their own kid, their kid's teammate or clubmate, a friend's kid - of someone returning to play from a diagnosed concussion w/o following the required protocol.  And my hope is the same as with kids I know and have watched - that they suffer no further injury.


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## outside! (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> This is a weird discussion to have.  Parents on a bulletin board sharing information.  Asking questions.  Etc.  If I have "real evidence" I should be doing X or Y and not doing A and B?  You have no idea what I may be doing and what I may not be doing.  You obviously don't believe me but my guess is that if there are 10 folks following this discussion, nearly all of them would have an example - their own kid, their kid's teammate or clubmate, a friend's kid - of someone returning to play from a diagnosed concussion w/o following the required protocol.  And my hope is the same as with kids I know and have watched - that they suffer no further injury.


I do not doubt you at all, but in my personnel experience every player that I have seen taken out of a game due to the concussion protocol has followed the protocol.


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## Emma (Nov 14, 2019)

dk_b said:


> This is a weird discussion to have.  Parents on a bulletin board sharing information.  Asking questions.  Etc.  If I have "real evidence" I should be doing X or Y and not doing A and B?  You have no idea what I may be doing and what I may not be doing.  You obviously don't believe me but my guess is that if there are 10 folks following this discussion, nearly all of them would have an example - their own kid, their kid's teammate or clubmate, a friend's kid - of someone returning to play from a diagnosed concussion w/o following the required protocol.  And my hope is the same as with kids I know and have watched - that they suffer no further injury.


With youth amateur sports, when no money is involved, safety should always be the first, second and third priority.  You can't develop players if they are getting injured constantly.  Luckily, all the players I have known, folllowed protocal and some were forced to stay out longer than parents and player wanted but followed their doctor's timeline.


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## dk_b (Nov 14, 2019)

outside! said:


> I do not doubt you at all, but in my personnel experience every player that I have seen taken out of a game due to the concussion protocol has followed the protocol.


That's good to know.  These are two papers on higher level athletes - community college and college - so not entirely relevant except for the "human nature" element.  Both describe substantial non-compliance.  So unless I am to believe that these are not representative of the profession, it is easy to imagine "many" physicians/health care professionals (like CATs) tasked with providing care/clearance are not doing so in compliance (and it is important to note that I am saying "many" and not "most" - though in the community college paper, only 18% of trainers ("trainers" at the collegiate level include MDs) were in full compliance):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4851134/:  “However, only 18% of ATs at CCCAA institutions were in compliance with all of their concussion policies.”

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Many-Athletes-Receive-Little/149545:  “The findings, published on Tuesday in _The American Journal of Sports Medicine_, suggest that dozens of institutions may not be in compliance with the concussion policy set forth by the National Collegiate Athletic Association”.

But @espola may still think I am full of shit.  That's fine.  I can accept that.  To others (like the person posting yesterday), be vigilant and don't assume that a Dr clearance letter is, by itself, in compliance with what is required or that the Dr actually knows that she/he may not be following the law.


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## oh canada (Nov 14, 2019)

The Ghost of Johan Cruyff said:


> comment to our team know it all parent.


serious subject, but this line made me chuckle.  we've been with teams with 5 or 6 of these "team know it all parents".  having only one would feel like a vacation.  Recently, I heard AC (head coach of UCLA women) incredulously discussing the number of parents who sit and intensely watch practices (olders, not 8 year olds).  "When did that become a thing?", I think was her exact quote.

In Canada, parents hang at the ice arena because it's warmer inside than out.  In SoCal, the beach is open 24/7.  Here's a reminder about what youth sports is supposed to be all about:


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## outside! (Nov 14, 2019)

oh canada said:


> Recently, I heard AC (head coach of UCLA women) incredulously discussing the number of parents who sit and intensely watch practices (olders, not 8 year olds).


That became a thing when the commute to practice became long and gas became expensive. Until my players could drive, I would stay at the field. I would walk, ride my bike or play disc golf for the beginning of practice, but I would usually watch the end of practice when they were scrimmaging.


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

outside! said:


> That became a thing when the commute to practice became long and gas became expensive. Until my players could drive, I would stay at the field. I would walk, ride my bike or play disc golf for the beginning of practice, but I would usually watch the end of practice when they were scrimmaging.


The long commute to practice is usually voluntary.


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## espola (Nov 14, 2019)

The Ghost of Johan Cruyff said:


> after everything, he said that is what you are worried about? A throwaway line that in context he was inferring that *gasp* doctors are fallible just like everyone else. You are missing the point or at the very least you are distracting from it.
> 
> What I read from this is what I'm taking issue with as well....there is a protocol put in place, into law actually, that every adult that engages in youth sports is required to pass a class which teaches you how to handle these situations. So, just to simply since its a soccer forum. The state made rules of a game. They taught participants how to play the game. Participants don't play by the rules. It's like playing soccer with your hands. Except we are talking kids and long term damage to their brain. But since he used a common qualitative statement you dismiss the message? Looks like you are the one that isn't contributing anything worthwhile.


Does "throwaway line" mean that you didn't intend it to be taken seriously?  If so, I'll keep that in mind in the future.


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## outside! (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> The long commute to practice is usually voluntary.


That is true. We voluntarily endured a long commute so that our players could play on teams that were the best fit for them at the time. Without the long commute, my daughter would not have been able to play one of the two best teams in her age group in the county. Without playing on a that team, I doubt she would be playing D1 soccer. I would also add to my previous comment. With the amount of money we pay for club soccer and the documented cases of coaches mistreating players, I am surprised more parents don't attend practice.


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## Kicker4Life (Nov 14, 2019)

espola said:


> Does "throwaway line" mean that you didn't intend it to be taken seriously?  If so, I'll keep that in mind in the future.


If you need examples of a “throw away line” read 99% of your posts!


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## newwavedave (Nov 14, 2019)

outside! said:


> That is true. We voluntarily endured a long commute so that our players could play on teams that were the best fit for them at the time. Without the long commute, my daughter would not have been able to play one of the two best teams in her age group in the county. Without playing on a that team, I doubt she would be playing D1 soccer. I would also add to my previous comment. With the amount of money we pay for club soccer and the documented cases of coaches mistreating players, I am surprised more parents don't attend practice.


If I didn't attend practices a few years ago my dd would be in a heap of trouble today emotionally.  I would tell AC it became a thing when the DA allowed unqualified coaches to yell and scream at 12 & 13 year olds. I at first dropped her off and I would go look at the waves.  However, when your dd starts to tell you things being said at practices by a crazy coach who manipulates little girls, PaPa Bear has to step in.  I don't have one bit of second guessing my decision to stay and watch and eventually confront said abusers.  These clowns said If I were to leave the Club my dd would be a marked player never to be recruited by YNT or colleges.  Well, we shall see about that boys


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## oh canada (Nov 14, 2019)

newwavedave said:


> If I didn't attend practices a few years ago my dd would be in a heap of trouble today emotionally.  I would tell AC it became a thing when the DA allowed unqualified coaches to yell and scream at 12 & 13 year olds. I at first dropped her off and I would go look at the waves.  However, when your dd starts to tell you things being said at practices by a crazy coach who manipulates little girls, PaPa Bear has to step in.  I don't have one bit of second guessing my decision to stay and watch and eventually confront said abusers.  These clowns said If I were to leave the Club my dd would be a marked player never to be recruited by YNT or colleges.  Well, we shall see about that boys


it's one thing to watch the first part of practice then return for the last 15-20 mins of practice for pickup.  And, another thing if you have suspicions of abusive behavior.  But that's not what AC was referring to...she was talking about the parents we all know/see who watch every minute of every practice of their 11-15 year olds, cringing on each mistake their kid makes, twitching in their chair each time their kid gets the ball...every practice, every minute, 3-4x/week.  I venture to say those are also the team "know it all" parents.  Little do they know that they would be much happier not watching so intensely and their kids will perform/develop better too.


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## newwavedave (Nov 15, 2019)

oh canada said:


> it's one thing to watch the first part of practice then return for the last 15-20 mins of practice for pickup.  And, another thing if you have suspicions of abusive behavior.  But that's not what AC was referring to...she was talking about the parents we all know/see who watch every minute of every practice of their 11-15 year olds, cringing on each mistake their kid makes, twitching in their chair each time their kid gets the ball...every practice, every minute, 3-4x/week.  I venture to say those are also the team "know it all" parents.  Little do they know that they would be much happier not watching so intensely and their kids will perform/develop better too.


OK, thanks for correction.  I have mixed personalities and I do get triggered sometimes from the past.  I can say with great joy that I drop her off and come back 2 hours later because of a healthy environment.  I never watch practice and I do know who she is referring to.  It all comes down to who you're dropping your kid off too


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## Keepermom2 (Nov 15, 2019)

socalkdg said:


> In our game Sunday (U15) our girl with the strongest kick on the team hit another girl right in the forehead from about 6 feet away as she was trying to clear it.   The girl then took a couple steps, then she hit the ground.   Then she got up again, walked a bit more, then went down again.  Their coach came over and eventually walked her to the sidelines.  Seeing it live was bad, but the video replay was even worse as I was recording the defensive side of the game and the camera was right by where it happened.   One of the hardest hits I've seen to the head.
> 
> First, I hope she is ok.   Second, I'd like to send out thanks to the referee that made her leave after she came back in.   What is standard practice with concussions for youth soccer?   Who is responsible?   Player?  Parent?   Coach?  Referee?   all of them?


If I see my daughter get up and fall and get up and fall after taking a hit like you described, I would immediately take her to the hospital to be checked out and so the coach wouldn't have the opportunity to put her back in.


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