# Why USA’S Youth Development Continues To Stagnate



## Vin (Nov 29, 2018)

http://breakingthelines.com/opinion-pieces/why-usas-youth-development-continues-to-stagnate/

Coaches and parents are more intent on winning than developing.
“Boot the ball!” “We don’t need to be playing possession!!” “This season sucks because we aren’t winning!” These are all common complaints a coach will hear from exasperated parents on the sidelines.


----------



## electrichead72 (Nov 29, 2018)

Hearing a parent say that is pretty typical.

If it's the coach, then maybe you need to look for another team.


----------



## focomoso (Nov 30, 2018)

electrichead72 said:


> Hearing a parent say that is pretty typical.
> 
> If it's the coach, then maybe you need to look for another team.


Agreed, but in my son's "career", we have only had one coach who didn't think that way - and he was fired for not getting results.


----------



## electrichead72 (Nov 30, 2018)

I hear where you are coming from.

My kids have been lucky to have had coaches that trained technical skills and possession play, but I have heard many coaches from the other side of the field yelling to just get the ball forward to have their players run it down.

This usually tends to become less of an issue as the kids get older and any physical advantage of an early bloomer is lost when the other players  "catch-up" to them.

It also changes in teams that are higher levels of play. I think the technical teams tend to go further than the teams that only rely on physicality and speed.


----------



## GKDad65 (Nov 30, 2018)

Just join the DA program and US Soccer will develop your player right down the toilet!


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Dec 1, 2018)

There are several reasons: 
- Too many useless tournaments that shift the focus from development to just winning
- Lack of futsal focus in most club organizations.  We need to get the kids to focus on better and faster touches
- Allow  kids get creative, ask them to make moves and think about making creative plays and creative passing. 
- Kids don't watch professional soccer. My son had a south American coach that told the kids and parents " these kids are not watching soccer, they need to truly watch and analyze 3 games a week" 
- High school is a soccer killer:  Kids get to high school and drop soccer for other sports.   As parents we need to have our kids playing 2 or 3 sports when they are younger.  The ones that truly love soccer will remain playing during high school. 
- Not enough breaks for kids.   Soccer has become a job by the time these kids get to 13 years of age.   How many months off do kids get a year?  4 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks in the winter. That's less than professional athletes. 
- MLS needs to pay more,  As a parent, I don't want my kid to pursue soccer to earn a minimum salary of $60k in the MLS.  MLS needs to get to $100k minimum to make it attractive for our best athletes to play soccer. 
- Academies will need to develop kids overseas.  We need to get our academies to establish partnerships with academies from Brazil, Colombia, Argentina. We send our best players over to their academies, we send them funding to support their local efforts. They can send their mid-tier players  (their best will go to Europe) to our MLS teams.    (This is a long shot and probably not well thought out)


Finally, if you saw our recent USMNT  games against Brazil, Colombia, and England, it was sad to see the lack of soccer IQ on our side and the creativity from the other teams.  Unfortunately we are a good 20 years behind.


----------



## timbuck (Dec 1, 2018)

All very good points and I agree.  
I think the most important one is watching more professional soccer on TV.  This leads to better vision on the field.  This leads to being more creative.  This leads to recognizing off the ball movement.  This leads to a better understanding of the laws of the game.  And if the commentators do a good job, it can inspire kids by hearing stories of adversity.


----------



## CaliKlines (Dec 1, 2018)

timbuck said:


> All very good points and I agree.
> I think the most important one is watching more professional soccer on TV.  This leads to better vision on the field.  This leads to being more creative.  This leads to recognizing off the ball movement.  This leads to a better understanding of the laws of the game.  And if the commentators do a good job, it can inspire kids by hearing stories of adversity.


And it’s fun too.


----------



## StrikerOC (Dec 1, 2018)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> There are several reasons:
> - Too many useless tournaments that shift the focus from development to just winning
> - Lack of futsal focus in most club organizations.  We need to get the kids to focus on better and faster touches
> - Allow  kids get creative, ask them to make moves and think about making creative plays and creative passing.
> ...


Yes to all this!


----------



## SPChamp1 (Dec 2, 2018)

timbuck said:


> All very good points and I agree.
> I think the most important one is watching more professional soccer on TV.  This leads to better vision on the field.  This leads to being more creative.  This leads to recognizing off the ball movement.  This leads to a better understanding of the laws of the game.  And if the commentators do a good job, it can inspire kids by hearing stories of adversity.


I’d take it one step further. While watching soccer on tv does help, it pales in comparison to going out and watching your local team play in person. Whether it’s an MLS or even a UPSL team, by going to a game a child is able to see the entire field. See how off the ball movement is just as fancy skill moves with the ball. It’s hard to learn the game in all phases of play when a tv camera is only focused on where the ball is.

Our family goes to several Galaxy and LAFC games every year and I’ve had my 17 and 12 (the ones that eat, breathe and sleep Soccer) focus on just watching one player each game. To watch that player when he doesn’t have the ball. See what he does to stay connected with the play, etc... For those that aren’t fortunate enough to have 2 MLS teams in your backyard, go find your local USL, NPSL or UPSL team. Ticket prices are cheap and you get to support your local club.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 2, 2018)

SPChamp1 said:


> I’d take it one step further. While watching soccer on tv does help, it pales in comparison to going out and watching your local team play in person. Whether it’s an MLS or even a UPSL team, by going to a game a child is able to see the entire field. See how off the ball movement is just as fancy skill moves with the ball. It’s hard to learn the game in all phases of play when a tv camera is only focused on where the ball is.
> 
> Our family goes to several Galaxy and LAFC games every year and I’ve had my 17 and 12 (the ones that eat, breathe and sleep Soccer) focus on just watching one player each game. To watch that player when he doesn’t have the ball. See what he does to stay connected with the play, etc... For those that aren’t fortunate enough to have 2 MLS teams in your backyard, go find your local USL, NPSL or UPSL team. Ticket prices are cheap and you get to support your local club.


I agree being at games is much different. If you go to USL, College Games, MLS, MX and European Pro teams you will see the difference between all of them - especially game speed, tech skill and work rate. Most kids I talk about to do not watch MLS, College or other domestic soccer. Typical answers as to why not include, but not limited to: “boring”, “slow”,”trash”,”don’t know anyone on the teams”,”just turnovers all game”, “donkey touches all game”...

Kids should watch more soccer but average kid isn’t watching any games. I make my kids rewind scoring plays and/or “game changing” game events. They now will always rewind to see if the buildup - will even call me to the room to show me how a bad pass, someone not clearing a ball or weak play on one side of the field leading to goal at other end. Most kids have short memories and more emphasis needs to be placed on analyzing the game even up to a few plays before a score, a corner or shot on goal. Some kids can’t recall what led up to the point you are asking them at half or end of the game. Can’t expect them to record an entire game in their head, but I think it is very important to direct them towards analyzing what happened so they can improve game-time decision making. Kids who show up just to run around hard for 40-90mins to score or defend and call it a day are probably not going to be the most high IQ kids on their teams as they get older. We train kids to be too robotic in the US and many are never required to think for themselves


----------



## Paul Spacey (Dec 2, 2018)

All great posts and points. Watching games (whether on TV or going to games) is a massive thing and I genuinely think it is hugely underestimated here by many parents and kids (certainly in my experience anyway). You learn to understand the game and the movement of players (particularly off-the-ball) in a way that you simply cannot get by practicing just a few hours a week. When you are practicing, you are not seeing a birds eye view of the field and understanding diagonal runs or positional interchanging for example. You just don't see the field and how successful players use the space so effectively in practice but if you watch a high-level game, it becomes very clear, very quickly. Patterns and team shape are also elements that you pick up by watching games; every time we play a really good team who move the ball around the field with quality, precision and speed, I always say to myself, "they definitely watch and live the game, it's so obvious."

I bang on and on (and on) about this all the time to the kids and parents at our club. Some listen (they are generally the players with the highest game IQ) and some I know it just goes in one ear and out of the other. Those kids don't develop their full soccer potential, simple as that.

Decision making is everything. Combining watching and truly understanding soccer with practicing (both organized and pick-up) and elements like futsal will help to develop an all-round smart decision maker. The more elements you cover, the smarter you will be and again, it is so blatantly obvious when you see this on the field, both from an individual and team perspective.

Kids; turn Fortnite off and go watch some European and South American games on replay...


----------



## blam (Dec 2, 2018)

Instead of watching, does playing fifa help? Seem more fun.


----------



## ChrisD (Dec 3, 2018)

our team films every game and watches them after at home.  Boys seem to enjoy it


----------



## mirage (Dec 3, 2018)

This kind of thread is old and repetitive to those of us who's been around for awhile but glad it comes up time to time so that new members can chew the fat and regurgitate what's wrong with USY soccer....

PS brings up a point that we rarely discuss on the form, and that's how important it is for kids to watch the game.  When our older kid was recruited by a club coach back in U8 or so, the first season he said to my kid and to us that to  have him watch as much of professional games as possible.  The coach's point then was exactly the same as what Paul describes.



Paul Spacey said:


> ....Watching games (whether on TV or going to games) is a massive thing and I genuinely think it is hugely underestimated here by many parents and kids (certainly in my experience anyway). You learn to understand the game and the movement of players (particularly off-the-ball).....
> 
> Decision making is everything. Combining watching and truly understanding soccer with practicing (both organized and pick-up) and elements like futsal will help to develop an all-round smart decision maker....


So we tried but the kid wanted to play more than watch so it didn't happen until much later in the process but it did happen eventually.  It took couple of key things to get him interested in watching the game - discover player he liked and find a team to favor.  In our kid's case, that was Ronaldinho and Liverpool.  He must have watched every video highlights of Ronaldinho at Barca and AC Milan.  He almost never missed Liverpool game thereafter too.

Over time, much of the soccer IQ stuff got embedded in this thinking organically between watching games and playing FIFA (actually, it was FIFA first and its through FIFA that he discovered his favorite player).  I don't think NBCSports no longer provide this but early on, their app used to provide alternate view of the game being broadcasted - without announcers and close ups.  Rather, gave a bird's-eye view of most of the field and could watch the player movements significantly better than the broadcast feed.

Kids, in general, copy actions and moves of superstars that they like and have seen on video.  If the kid is very interested in the sports to begin with, he'll work on perfecting the moves for hours and hours.  You often see it on the field and everyone goes "wooo" or something like it, when the move is executed in the game.  While some may dismiss it as hot dogging it, there's more to it, if the kid actually has worked at it.

We were fortunate with our oder kid, because he always had coaches that emphasized creativity and decision making as the paramount in the games.  Its that type of environment that allows any player to develop his own style and way of playing - the very basic of who the player is.  It is not to say that the player can be a loose cannon on the field.  On the contrary, the player has to play the position responsibly but how its done is the point.  And it is that "how" that separates the good players from ordinary players.

So what's wrong with USY soccer?  Many answers and opinions with little to no change in actions.  I believe there are plenty of great coaches out there.  I also believe there are lot more crappy coaches out there too, along with DOCs and club officials.  But at the end of the day, the ultimate responsibility of how good we are comes down to the individual players.  And yes, coaching interferes with some potentially great players as well as how the game is played but no coach executes plays on the field.  

My personal view is that we have too much structure and hierarchy in USY soccer development - in the name of "finding NT players".  Didn't we have more success in the 80s and 90s, when we used to qualify for WC and didn't have all the infrastructure to produce the national team?  I'm not suggesting we go back to the way of those days but I do believe we have beaten the dead horse for quite some time.....


----------



## Paul Spacey (Dec 3, 2018)

mirage said:


> And yes, coaching interferes with some potentially great players as well as how the game is played but no coach executes plays on the field.


Spot on. And this is why we have to help nurture great decision makers. I spent this past weekend again listening to 3 or 4 different coaches literally calling every pass or 'play' from the sideline. It's laughable and infuriating at the same time but so common in youth soccer.

Far too many players I see (and I include some from our club who I have coached for a number of years) simply do not understand the game. Yes, they can receive and pass and have good technical skills but their lack of broad understanding of the game (IMO mainly because they do not watch it) means they cannot compete with the best players who just move around the field in a different way and are able to adjust and do things that are not average or ordinary. 

Shooting/finishing is a great example of something that you can improve by actually watching games. Watch how pro players on TV use their body shape to feint or fool the keeper into thinking they are shooting to one area of the goal but they actually finish in another area entirely. I spend time showing this to our players but without enough practice and seeing it repeated on TV, many struggle to grasp it and very rarely do I see any kid (our club or others, at all levels) use their body shape to sell or fool the keeper and shoot into another area of the goal. These small nuances are things most average players never pick up or learn; if only they watched the game more, it would be easier for them all to 'get it'. Just my opinion.


----------



## End of the Line (Dec 3, 2018)

mirage said:


> This kind of thread is old and repetitive to those of us who's been around for awhile but glad it comes up time to time so that new members can chew the fat and regurgitate what's wrong with USY soccer....
> 
> PS brings up a point that we rarely discuss on the form, and that's how important it is for kids to watch the game.  When our older kid was recruited by a club coach back in U8 or so, the first season he said to my kid and to us that to  have him watch as much of professional games as possible.  The coach's point then was exactly the same as what Paul describes.
> 
> ...


It is pretty funny that the key to MNT improvement is for kids to watch more tv and play more video games.  This is probably the best justification possible in support of mediocrity on the men's side.


----------



## timbuck (Dec 3, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> It is pretty funny that the key to MNT improvement is for kids to watch more tv and play more video games.  This is probably the best justification possible in support of mediocrity on the men's side.


Yeah.  You’re right.  They should just lift weights and run faster.


----------



## Paul Spacey (Dec 3, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> It is pretty funny that the key to MNT improvement is for kids to watch more tv and play more video games.  This is probably the best justification possible in support of mediocrity on the men's side.


I'm not sure anyone is advocating 'too much' TV or video games. Just to watch a bit more (i.e. enough to learn) on TV or live at games. Video games (FIFA) are actually helpful, as long as it's not addictive behavior that takes up way too much of your time (and you don't bother doing actual practice with a ball/team).

Article below is worth a read, although it's an old one. Lots to be gained from video games and cognitive function outside of actually kicking a ball physically. 

https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/wn3vwz/faster-in-the-head-can-video-games-make-soccer-players-better


----------



## jpeter (Dec 3, 2018)

Players game...take a huge amount passion & work to get really good. 

We need more players that are willing to put in the work like this young man. 

"....15, is a sophomore soccer standout at L.A. Cathedral.   On Friday nights this winter, he’d be playing pickup soccer games on a USC field until they turned off the lights. On weekends, he’d rise at 6 a.m. with an older brother and head to Playa Vista to train until 11 p.m.

“I just stay to train until I get tired and exhausted,” he said.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/


----------



## timbuck (Dec 3, 2018)

https://twitter.com/coachwilly1875/status/1069474638575673344?s=21

Read this whole tweet thread and replies from Willly. 

“Here's why us foreigners struggle with the college coach mentality in the US. I have stopped listening to some podcasts and reading some websites, because it just feels like a massive circlejerk where so many of these types are tugging each other off over their achievements”.


----------



## clubfees (Dec 3, 2018)

mirage said:


> I don't think NBCSports no longer provide this but early on, their app used to provide alternate view of the game being broadcasted - without announcers and close ups.  Rather, gave a bird's-eye view of most of the field and could watch the player movements significantly better than the broadcast feed.
> 
> .


Even if this feature isn't available anymore, one of the reasons I like this site, knowledge nuggets like this.  Thank you.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 3, 2018)

timbuck said:


> https://twitter.com/coachwilly1875/status/1069474638575673344?s=21
> 
> Read this whole tweet thread and replies from Willly.
> 
> “Here's why us foreigners struggle with the college coach mentality in the US. I have stopped listening to some podcasts and reading some websites, because it just feels like a massive circlejerk where so many of these types are tugging each other off over their achievements”.


Very interesting tweet. It was interesting to see the one posted by a local South Bay club coach and that he was leaving. Also on his self analysis at being at best average.


----------



## End of the Line (Dec 3, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Yeah.  You’re right.  They should just lift weights and run faster.


I was kidding of course.  But you're probably right that kids should spend their time lifting weights and running instead because it is much more likely that they will personal life benefit from it.  It takes a lot of video games and TV to meaningfully improve at soccer (assuming for the sake of argument that it's ever better than time spent playing it), but that's still a waste of time for 99.9999% of American kids and you won't know whether your kid is in the .0001% who received value until he's already worn out his XBox controller and almost certainly wasted the time.  Anyone who says playing FIFA helps improve "cognitive function" is really saying video games aren't as bad as you think because they only rot the parts of the brain you will need when it finally became clear that you'll never make a career out of soccer or even get into college because of it.  Good for the 5-10 US kids a year who eventually make a decent living playing soccer in part because they played a lot of video games as children, but bad for the other millions who in retrospect only wasted time that could have been spent on something productive.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Dec 3, 2018)

blam said:


> Instead of watching, does playing fifa help? Seem more fun.


I can't prove it, but I thought my DD and another kid's plays improve in a couple of areas once they started playing FIFA.

One example is their decision making when it comes to whether to dribble or pass, and precisely when to pass.  What I see in the younger's games is that many kids tend to over-dribble until they get dis-possessed.  I think this is due to the fact that most players were studs of their rec/all star teams and they were used to dribble around the competition.  In FIFA, you WILL get dispossessed if you hold the ball for 1/2 second too long, even if you're master of the balls like Messi or Hazard.

In any case, nothing beats playing FIFA with your DD and talking smack to each other.


----------



## End of the Line (Dec 3, 2018)

timbuck said:


> https://twitter.com/coachwilly1875/status/1069474638575673344?s=21
> 
> Read this whole tweet thread and replies from Willly.
> 
> “Here's why us foreigners struggle with the college coach mentality in the US. I have stopped listening to some podcasts and reading some websites, because it just feels like a massive circlejerk where so many of these types are tugging each other off over their achievements”.


Wow, this guy is a pretentious douche, and I know what I'm talking about, trust me on that.   The first thing you see in his Twitter feed are all the places he's coached, yet he criticizes others for "tugging each other off over their achievements"?  The only difference between him and the people he complains about is that he only gets to tug himself off.  You can tell based on how few likes he gets to his Twitter posts that he doesn't have much company.  Seriously, I got more likes when I took @Simisoccerfan out to the woodshed.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 5, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Very interesting tweet. It was interesting to see the one posted by a local South Bay club coach and that he was leaving. Also on his self analysis at being at best average.


yep that guy has good points. the multiple sport fallacy gets me too.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 5, 2018)

End of the Line said:


> Wow, this guy is a pretentious douche, and I know what I'm talking about, trust me on that.   The first thing you see in his Twitter feed are all the places he's coached, yet he criticizes others for "tugging each other off over their achievements"?  The only difference between him and the people he complains about is that he only gets to tug himself off.  You can tell based on how few likes he gets to his Twitter posts that he doesn't have much company.  Seriously, I got more likes when I took @Simisoccerfan out to the woodshed.


i agree, twitter is an echo chamber, but most folks think they are shouting to the world. noticed he doesnt have a ton of fans, but some of what he says is true. have to weed through it


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 5, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> yep that guy has good points. the multiple sport fallacy gets me too.


That point about dual sports has been one I’ve been rethinking (prior to the tweet) and his thinking was reasonable.


----------



## Paul Spacey (Dec 5, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> That point about dual sports has been one I’ve been rethinking (prior to the tweet) and his thinking was reasonable.


I think most sensible parents and coaches would always support dual or multiple sports because like anything else in life, it’s good to have some variety (it certainly doesn’t hurt anyone).

That said, if you are looking at being the absolute best you can be in any sport or domain, it makes sense that you should spend as much time as possible doing it. People will always pull up outlier stories (he or she played 5 sports until he or she signed their first contract) but the reality is that the majority of elite level soccer players (and I would argue this is likely the case for other sports) only played soccer growing up, or certainly played soccer the vast majority of their time.

It’s a simple thing in my opinion. If a kid spends more time than you doing something, it is almost certain that they will be better than you are. Sure, genetics, opportunity and other aspects might come into it but all other things equal, the kid who spends the most time practicing will likely be better. 

Anyone can push an agenda or find an angle. That’s why there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to this subject.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 5, 2018)

Paul Spacey said:


> I think most sensible parents and coaches would always support dual or multiple sports because like anything else in life, it’s good to have some variety (it certainly doesn’t hurt anyone).
> 
> That said, if you are looking at being the absolute best you can be in any sport or domain, it makes sense that you should spend as much time as possible doing it. People will always pull up outlier stories (he or she played 5 sports until he or she signed their first contract) but the reality is that the majority of elite level soccer players (and I would argue this is likely the case for other sports) only played soccer growing up, or certainly played soccer the vast majority of their time.
> 
> ...


Kinda agree. Been taking a personal inventory on the players I’ve grown up with or played with later in life. Some played pro and only played soccer. Others who played pro were multi sported. But it’s about equal in numbers. Therefore I can’t say it was an advantage then, though it’s the now that creates a different environment.


----------



## TangoCity (Dec 5, 2018)

I took my kid to go watch a men's college (UCSB vs Cal Poly SLO) and what a huge mistake that was.  Total kickball.  We left early.  The style of soccer sucked.  Also saw a few PDL games and those were very good.  Got a lot out of them.


----------



## outside! (Dec 6, 2018)

TangoCity said:


> I took my kid to go watch a men's college (UCSB vs Cal Poly SLO) and what a huge mistake that was.  Total kickball.  We left early.  The style of soccer sucked.  Also saw a few PDL games and those were very good.  Got a lot out of them.


I watched one men's college soccer game. It was the most direct game I have ever seen. Never more than 4 or 5 touches (and usually less) touches from one end of the field to the other. It was all counter attacks. The skill of some of the one touch passes was impressive, but it was ugly soccer.

I recently heard of a very talented college freshman playing men's D1 soccer that said it was a step down compared to DA.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 6, 2018)

outside! said:


> I watched one men's college soccer game. It was the most direct game I have ever seen. Never more than 4 or 5 touches (and usually less) touches from one end of the field to the other. It was all counter attacks. The skill of some of the one touch passes was impressive, but it was ugly soccer.
> 
> I recently heard of a very talented college freshman playing men's D1 soccer that said it was a step down compared to DA.


I’ve watched UCLA men’s team several times. Thought it was quality. Though they suffered at the hands of teams who played more direct.


----------



## str8baller (Dec 6, 2018)

timbuck said:


> https://twitter.com/coachwilly1875/status/1069474638575673344?s=21
> 
> Read this whole tweet thread and replies from Willly.
> 
> “Here's why us foreigners struggle with the college coach mentality in the US. I have stopped listening to some podcasts and reading some websites, because it just feels like a massive circlejerk where so many of these types are tugging each other off over their achievements”.


Where's coach Willy when you need him?!  USS Should hire that guy!


----------



## str8baller (Dec 6, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’ve watched UCLA men’s team several times. Thought it was quality. Though they suffered at the hands of teams who played more direct.


Very true on both accounts IMO


----------



## str8baller (Dec 6, 2018)

outside! said:


> I watched one men's college soccer game. It was the most direct game I have ever seen. Never more than 4 or 5 touches (and usually less) touches from one end of the field to the other. It was all counter attacks. The skill of some of the one touch passes was impressive, but it was ugly soccer.
> 
> I recently heard of a very talented college freshman playing men's D1 soccer that said it was a step down compared to DA.


Depends on the coach and the system.  If a player likes a possession game, he needs to do his homework before committing and choose a coach and a system that fits his game.  There are plenty of programs that play (or try to play) a better style than straight up and down.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 6, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> Kinda agree. Been taking a personal inventory on the players I’ve grown up with or played with later in life. Some played pro and only played soccer. Others who played pro were multi sported. But it’s about equal in numbers. Therefore I can’t say it was an advantage then, though it’s the now that creates a different environment.


many who pushed this theory were doctors but didnt do it with any evidence besides conversations with clients they saw. "they are using other muscles groups they usually dont use from one sport to another". when kids get to a certain age, you can mix in things like yoga and weightlifting - but that isnt adding another sport,just helping them with the sport they are in. Research by Shawn Arent shows the majority of injuries suffered in Soccer are through overuse - not because they didnt develop some group of muscles due to specialization.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 6, 2018)

outside! said:


> I watched one men's college soccer game. It was the most direct game I have ever seen. Never more than 4 or 5 touches (and usually less) touches from one end of the field to the other. It was all counter attacks. The skill of some of the one touch passes was impressive, but it was ugly soccer.
> 
> I recently heard of a very talented college freshman playing men's D1 soccer that said it was a step down compared to DA.


Good majority of teams play this way in college but I think you are seeing the possession style expanding. Watched the DI Girls Championship and FSU held the ball very well - but still didnt play out the back consistently. FSU got fatigued but held on. Dont know if NC really held the ball too much, and really didnt hold it all once they went down 1-0 - just went direct over and over. Keepers were killing me with the booting of the ball to midfield, have no idea why coaches insist on giving the other team a 50/50 chance of winning the ball.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 6, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> I’ve watched UCLA men’s team several times. Thought it was quality. Though they suffered at the hands of teams who played more direct.


because coaches know most teams just have big kids as defenders who never had their technical skills developed. like the play at youth level, you get all the direct play, through balls, over the top because kids will make mistakes due to their lack of skill. the trend continues in college and its a never ending cycle. you cant blame college coaches too much, they can only work with what they have and player skill level will dictate the style you play. coaches will also get fired if they are consistently losing. I know coaches at community college level who dont worry solely on winning and attempt to develop players in two year cycles - since their main goal is to get kids ready to play at higher levels. Hard to teach a kid to receive with the correct foot, or work on touch in HS - virtually no time to do so at College level. Unfortunately a ton of kids in College who dont know how to bring down a ball or dribble a ball under pressure.


----------



## espola (Dec 6, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> many who pushed this theory were doctors but didnt do it with any evidence besides conversations with clients they saw. "they are using other muscles groups they usually dont use from one sport to another". when kids get to a certain age, you can mix in things like yoga and weightlifting - but that isnt adding another sport,just helping them with the sport they are in. Research by Shawn Arent shows the majority of injuries suffered in Soccer are through overuse - not because they didnt develop some group of muscles due to specialization.


Who is Shawn Arent?

And why can't he spell "Sean"?


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 6, 2018)

espola said:


> Who is Shawn Arent?
> 
> And why can't he spell "Sean"?


hah, parents wanted to be different. guy is a phd at Rutgers. mainly focuses on the soccer program. along with his wife have helped to reduce a lot of major injuries in the athletic programs at Rutgers. They use a ton of data using sensors the players use - think this one of places US Soccer got the idea of using sensors. At Rutgers players wear sensors and get a number that shows how hard players have practiced. They set a number for players for an entire week including games. They will sit kids out of practice or modify training just for those players so they dont go past a target number. Point is dont overwork players, harder is not always better, and actually take care of your players - including what they eat. Can look up podcasts with him, some of the best info you will find regardless of what sport your player plays.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Dec 6, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> Keepers were killing me with the booting of the ball to midfield, have no idea why coaches insist on giving the other team a 50/50 chance of winning the ball.


Because coaches know the chance of successfully building out from keeper to the halfway line is less than 50%


----------



## timbuck (Dec 6, 2018)

because a 50/50 ball at midfield is better than a 30/70 ball in your defending third. 

(Not saying this is how it should be played. But this is how some coaches think).


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 6, 2018)

timbuck said:


> because a 50/50 ball at midfield is better than a 30/70 ball in your defending third.
> 
> (Not saying this is how it should be played. But this is how some coaches think).


We use to say to our opposition, “they don’t want the ball”. This meant they were scared and not good with the ball at their feet. Is that what kickball is?


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 7, 2018)

timbuck said:


> because a 50/50 ball at midfield is better than a 30/70 ball in your defending third.
> 
> (Not saying this is how it should be played. But this is how some coaches think).





Messi>CR7 said:


> Because coaches know the chance of successfully building out from keeper to the halfway line is less than 50%


Look where those stats come from or came from. It is also a mentality that has been hammered into heads in order to keep doing the same thing. If you train kids correctly it will take 2-3 passes to get out past halfway. I compiled stats for some of our teams. I’d have pull them up, but Biggest problem is losing the ball and getting countered. Over 3/4 of the goals scored on on the teams came from team winning balls at midfield or a mid losing ball at midfield after winning ball at midfield. Also, if we lost the ball on the wings, stats showed we could defend losing the ball at a higher rate. If this type of philosophy were not true (and 30-70 stat were true),  a vast majority of teams in Bundesliga, BPL, La Liga would be a defying the odds. True it’s hard to keep the ball, and might take a team a couple years to be able to play this way- at younger ages you’ll probably even get hit hard initially. no excuse at HS and College level were you have 2-4 year cycles with players.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 7, 2018)

LASTMAN14 said:


> We use to say to our opposition, “they don’t want the ball”. This meant they were scared and not good with the ball at their feet. Is that what kickball is?


exactly. but i think its somebody somewhere was selling a system or giving excuses why to play kickball and they came up with some bogus statistic. this way coaches dont have to develop or teach kids to play with the ball at their feet. even if i had not gone all nerd and kept stats at our games, you could visually see where goals came from. if your team doesnt have anyone to win balls at midfield, or playing a formation that is soft at midfield, are you going to keep booting the ball to the other team? in these cases you are giving the team a better than 50/50 chance at winning the ball. sometimes you have to boot it or you can hit long passes when you see a mismatch - given your keeper is capable to hit accurate passes. a lot of this has to do with the skill of the players you have, but still  have a responsibility to develop kids past kicking the ball up the field and HOPE you get the ball.


----------



## espola (Dec 7, 2018)

timbuck said:


> because a 50/50 ball at midfield is better than a 30/70 ball in your defending third.
> 
> (Not saying this is how it should be played. But this is how some coaches think).


My philosophy on "kickball" is that if your defense has just made a mistake or been outplayed by a clever touch, our next touch should be long and high.  Make those mistakes on their side, not ours.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Dec 7, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> exactly. but i think its somebody somewhere was selling a system or giving excuses why to play kickball and they came up with some bogus statistic. this way coaches dont have to develop or teach kids to play with the ball at their feet. even if i had not gone all nerd and kept stats at our games, you could visually see where goals came from. if your team doesnt have anyone to win balls at midfield, or playing a formation that is soft at midfield, are you going to keep booting the ball to the other team? in these cases you are giving the team a better than 50/50 chance at winning the ball. sometimes you have to boot it or you can hit long passes when you see a mismatch - given your keeper is capable to hit accurate passes. a lot of this has to do with the skill of the players you have, but still  have a responsibility to develop kids past kicking the ball up the field and HOPE you get the ball.


Not the same sport, but watch this video on a high school football coach.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 7, 2018)

espola said:


> My philosophy on "kickball" is that if your defense has just made a mistake or been outplayed by a clever touch, our next touch should be long and high.  Make those mistakes on their side, not ours.


i say make a mistake where they cant hurt you, a bit like you are saying. the problem is you can make a mistake past half on their end and have the ball rammed right down the center of the field on you. i think you are saying you have to kick the ball far at times, which is true. i dont count clearing the ball because your FB or DM got burnt kickball. just see kids conditioned to boot the ball far no matter what, even if they have room to bring down the ball and dribble.


----------



## espola (Dec 7, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> i say make a mistake where they cant hurt you, a bit like you are saying. the problem is you can make a mistake past half on their end and have the ball rammed right down the center of the field on you. i think you are saying you have to kick the ball far at times, which is true. i dont count clearing the ball because your FB or DM got burnt kickball. just see kids conditioned to boot the ball far no matter what, even if they have room to bring down the ball and dribble.


I first learned soccer (more than just kick the ball into the goal and don't use your hands) from a Hungarian immigrant coach in high school.  He taught the keepers to look for wingers  (we played a 2-3-5 formation in those days, wingers were on the outside ends of the forward 5) who were supposed to be waiting for the ball at the center line-touchline junctions, and if they weren't available, boot it long.


----------



## Not_that_Serious (Dec 7, 2018)

espola said:


> I first learned soccer (more than just kick the ball into the goal and don't use your hands) from a Hungarian immigrant coach in high school.  He taught the keepers to look for wingers  (we played a 2-3-5 formation in those days, wingers were on the outside ends of the forward 5) who were supposed to be waiting for the ball at the center line-touchline junctions, and if they weren't available, boot it long.


that is a crazy formation, but probably overwhelmed the defense. A bit like madrid and others who bomb backs forward. just have to have some real mobile defenders who can cover some space. makes sense you have to bomb it due to the alternative of making a mistake and players getting behind you. i would have adjust that to not just bomb it, but to hit areas of play. Our backs get forward as well but as pressure comes you either find someone who suppose to be an outlet, or if he is covered, to hit down the line - away from keeper. this way you draw defenders out and you have a good probability of keeping the ball on your side of the field. most kids wont have the leg to get it across the field to the opposite corner. those who tend to try it get the ball intercepted down the middle (counter) or it will end up in the keeper's hands (or they are high enough to sweep it out). you have to have some quick kids to play what you guys did, one of our teams was able to play a V (one defender sweeping everything) most games because we had a very talented-aggressive back who could get sideline-to-sideline. allowed us to get numbers forward and could switch the ball around quickly - most teams will follow the ball like mice follow cheese. they over-commit and will leave the other side open. if you have a bunch of passing options can hit open holes quickly. why its important to teach kids less of the "BE AGGRESSIVE" 100% of the time and be disciplined in order to keep your shape on the defensive side.  

looks like you were lucky on how you were taught to play. see a ton of kids and teams that are not that lucky.


----------



## espola (Dec 7, 2018)

Not_that_Serious said:


> that is a crazy formation, but probably overwhelmed the defense. A bit like madrid and others who bomb backs forward. just have to have some real mobile defenders who can cover some space. makes sense you have to bomb it due to the alternative of making a mistake and players getting behind you. i would have adjust that to not just bomb it, but to hit areas of play. Our backs get forward as well but as pressure comes you either find someone who suppose to be an outlet, or if he is covered, to hit down the line - away from keeper. this way you draw defenders out and you have a good probability of keeping the ball on your side of the field. most kids wont have the leg to get it across the field to the opposite corner. those who tend to try it get the ball intercepted down the middle (counter) or it will end up in the keeper's hands (or they are high enough to sweep it out). you have to have some quick kids to play what you guys did, one of our teams was able to play a V (one defender sweeping everything) most games because we had a very talented-aggressive back who could get sideline-to-sideline. allowed us to get numbers forward and could switch the ball around quickly - most teams will follow the ball like mice follow cheese. they over-commit and will leave the other side open. if you have a bunch of passing options can hit open holes quickly. why its important to teach kids less of the "BE AGGRESSIVE" 100% of the time and be disciplined in order to keep your shape on the defensive side.
> 
> looks like you were lucky on how you were taught to play. see a ton of kids and teams that are not that lucky.


Everybody played 2-3-5 those days.  The 3 midfielders had significant defensive responsibility also, which evened things out.  The front 5 played either a W or an M formation (1 striker or 2) depending on personnel and opponent.  I was last-string right wing, and my only trained skill was to run the ball down the right side all the way to the corner and then cross flat across the goal.


----------



## Soccermom4 (Dec 7, 2018)

Vin said:


> http://breakingthelines.com/opinion-pieces/why-usas-youth-development-continues-to-stagnate/
> 
> Coaches and parents are more intent on winning than developing.
> “Boot the ball!” “We don’t need to be playing possession!!” “This season sucks because we aren’t winning!” These are all common complaints a coach will hear from exasperated parents on the sidelines.


I think this is spot on.  You also get coaches that are looking for "fame" ok recognition and drop kids like hot potatoes instead of developing them.  Plus parents and players that jump from place to place.  some times a change is needed, but sometimes people ae just looking for stepping stones.


----------



## sdb (Dec 8, 2018)

espola said:


> Everybody played 2-3-5 those days.  The 3 midfielders had significant defensive responsibility also, which evened things out.  The front 5 played either a W or an M formation (1 striker or 2) depending on personnel and opponent.  I was last-string right wing, and my only trained skill was to run the ball down the right side all the way to the corner and then cross flat across the goal.


Great section in the book “Inverting the Pyramid” on the WM formation and the Hungarian contribution to soccer tactics.


----------



## blam (Dec 15, 2018)

Role of parents is very important. About the only way kids in USA is introduced to any sports in USA is through parent involvement. There is little pick up games where kids learn themselves. Just had a chat with someone the other day and she said her parents never signed her up to do any sports when she was young and the first time she had a chance to do sports competitively is at high school and she had to compete with kids who have played it all their lives.

There is high school soccer but no elementary school or middle school soccer. Same is of course true with other sports like swimming or musical instruments like piano.


----------

