# Time to Play



## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

We're being played! 

Covid-19 deaths are down over 90% since late April, hospital bed capacity is fine, 296 deaths out of 3.3 million in San Diego County as of 6/21, County Officals stating no gathering of non family members in private homes until at least after the first of the year... enough is enough!

After months of forced isolation, kids more than anyone, need normalcy in their lives and youth sports provides just that.

No more sitting back waiting and wondering. It's time to retake control of lives and freedoms. It's time to be heard loud and clear...Do your part.


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## Soccer Bum 06 (Jun 23, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> We're being played!
> 
> Covid-19 deaths are down over 90% since late April, hospital bed capacity is fine, 296 deaths out of 3.3 million in San Diego County as of 6/21, County Officals stating no gathering of non family members in private homes until at least after the first of the year... enough is enough!
> 
> ...


Besides sending the governor an email do you have any other suggestions for gaining more traction on opening?


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## dad4 (Jun 23, 2020)

Soccer Bum 06 said:


> Besides sending the governor an email do you have any other suggestions for gaining more traction on opening?


I think he’s asking all of us to violate state and county health regulations, all at once.

It kind of assumes the government will sit still and do nothing while the ICUs get overloaded.  Seems more likely that they’ll shut it all down if hospitals get swamped.


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## ajaxahi (Jun 23, 2020)

Covid-19 deaths down 90% where? In Germany? Singapore? Here’s what covid deaths actually look like in California. (Source: Los Angeles Times analysis of county health agency data). I’m all for personal freedoms and bringing soccer back as soon as possible but let’s stick to facts. We are not out of the woods. Not by a long shot. 







MicPaPa said:


> We're being played!
> 
> Covid-19 deaths are down over 90% since late April, hospital bed capacity is fine, 296 deaths out of 3.3 million in San Diego County as of 6/21, County Officals stating no gathering of non family members in private homes until at least after the first of the year... enough is enough!
> 
> ...


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## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

ajaxahi said:


> Covid-19 deaths down 90% where? In Germany? Singapore? Here’s what covid deaths actually look like in California. (Source: Los Angeles Times analysis of county health agency data). I’m all for personal freedoms and bringing soccer back as soon as possible but let’s stick to facts. We are not out of the woods. Not by a long shot.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7849


Its funny that you would list entire countries like Germany and Singapore but then say California to fit your narrative.  The U.S. as a country does have about a 90% decrease for daily deaths from its high of over 2,000.  Back when we were counting duplicate numbers, gun shot murders, and drug overdoses as part of the total COVID related deaths.


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## ajaxahi (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Its funny that you would list entire countries like Germany and Singapore but then say California to fit your narrative.  The U.S. as a country does have about a 90% decrease for daily deaths from its high of over 2,000.  Back when we were counting duplicate numbers, gun shot murders, and drug overdoses as part of the total COVID related deaths.


So you think I’m cherry-picking by citing Covid-19 death data from the state where we actually live? That’s funny.


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## outside! (Jun 23, 2020)

Don't feed the troll.


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## lafalafa (Jun 23, 2020)

The virus doesn't care about your opinion and the numbers don't looks all the great last 14 days https://www.latimes.com/projects/california-coronavirus-cases-tracking-outbreak/#california-map

Youth sports has been placed in higher risk by the politicians or health officials for whatever there reasons are?   Not that I agree so I let my county, state reps know that and urge them to get the guidance out so more recreation activities and full play can get going again.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 23, 2020)

Listen everyone, let's not take matters into our own hands like some do.  Let's obey the orders.  Two shay is all I can say.  I believe kids 17 and under have zero risk.  Let the kids start to practice.  No tournaments this year.  Just practice practice practice and then fall ball and then shut down.  Parents can watch after new years and we see how things go  No parents allowed until we see if this new wave of cases leads to over crowing ICU beds.  Livestream will be big time.

In fact, college coaches can watch live stream.  Announcers can share about each players bio through the game.  My dd would love me not to be there coaching her and yelling at her to work harder because all the scouts are watching on tv.....lol.  I'm serious, I do think the girls would play better without mama bear or papa bear going off on the refs, coaches or other kids on the field.  That was very toxic.  Let's get the games going.  Parents stay away from the fields and let your kids play without being an enabler.


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## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

ajaxahi said:


> So you think I’m cherry-picking by citing Covid-19 death data from the state where we actually live? That’s funny.


No the funny part was listing countries and then listing a state. be consistent. or else you are just trying to push a narrative. I think a logical intelligent person would understand that case counts would go up as tests are more readily available.  We knew since the days of 5% mortality rate of only counting the sick enough to get a test that there were many more people that were asymptomatic not getting tested.  Its the deaths that we should be looking at.  Who are dying and why they are dying.  we are still finding errors recently like in louisanna double counting over 1500 cases. With a less than 1% mortality rate where the vast majority are elderly, I dont think we need to worry about rising cases for people that go to a drive through COVID test spot just to see if they have it or not especially when they are not experiencing any symptoms.


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## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Listen everyone, let's not take matters into our own hands like some do.  Let's obey the orders.  Two shay is all I can say.  I believe kids 17 and under have zero risk.  Let the kids start to practice.  No tournaments this year.  Just practice practice practice and then fall ball and then shut down.  Parents can watch after new years and we see how things go  No parents allowed until we see if this new wave of cases leads to over crowing ICU beds.  Livestream will be big time.
> 
> In fact, college coaches can watch live stream.  Announcers can share about each players bio through the game.  My dd would love me not to be there coaching her and yelling at her to work harder because all the scouts are watching on tv.....lol.  I'm serious, I do think the girls would play better without mam bear or papa bear going off on the refs, coaches or other kids on the field.  That was very toxic.  Let's get the games going.  Parents stay away form the fields and let your kids play without being an enabler.


yup, 0 deaths in california 17 and under.


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## timbuck (Jun 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Listen everyone, let's not take matters into our own hands like some do.  Let's obey the orders.  Two shay is all I can say.  I* believe kids 17 and under have zero risk.  Let the kids start to practice.*  No tournaments this year.  Just practice practice practice and then fall ball


What about some of those old ass coaches?  And the really overweight ones?  
(The sidelines are littered with old men on 2xl tracksuits)


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I think he’s asking all of us to violate state and county health regulations, all at once.
> 
> It kind of assumes the government will sit still and do nothing while the ICUs get overloaded.  Seems more likely that they’ll shut it all down if hospitals get swamped.


We sat back for weeks watching, and some of you subjugating on bended knee, thousands of social justice protesters violate state and county regulations...while the "government officials and experts (who you blindly follow)" sat quite.

I don't need to "assume the government will sit still and do nothing"...they did! But hey, you're the smart one.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

timbuck said:


> What about some of those old ass coaches?  And the really overweight ones?
> (The sidelines are littered with old men on 2xl tracksuits)


Personal responsibility, they can stay home. Isolating kids from being kids for months on end because of overweight folks is not the answer...to the contrary, this will cause more youth weight issues.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

ajaxahi said:


> Covid-19 deaths down 90% where? In Germany? Singapore? Here’s what covid deaths actually look like in California. (Source: Los Angeles Times analysis of county health agency data). I’m all for personal freedoms and bringing soccer back as soon as possible but let’s stick to facts. We are not out of the woods. Not by a long shot.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7849


Brilliant! Now do deaths by suicide, drugs & alcohol, obesity, cancer, poverty, crime,...on and on. Then do same with Youth 17 and under.


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## dad4 (Jun 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I believe kids 17 and under have zero risk.


More like 10 and under.  Both Israel and Arizona have had high school based transmission clusters.   Kids might be fine, but that doesn’t help older relatives when kids come home.

I agree that the risk from outdoor sports seems way overstated.  We just had 6200 older people sitting together in an airconditioned indoor arena, and we’re worried about 22 high school kids outside plus 14 more with masks?


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

dad4 said:


> More like 10 and under.  Both Israel and Arizona have had high school based transmission clusters.   Kids might be fine, but that doesn’t help older relatives when kids come home.
> 
> I agree that the risk from outdoor sports seems way overstated.  We just had 6200 older people sitting together in an airconditioned indoor arena, and we’re worried about 22 high school kids outside plus 14 more with masks?


Exactly! it's petty politics.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 23, 2020)

timbuck said:


> What about some of those old ass coaches?  And the really overweight ones?
> (The sidelines are littered with old men on 2xl tracksuits)


Not my dd coach, coach buck....lol


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## Ellejustus (Jun 23, 2020)

dad4 said:


> More like 10 and under.  Both Israel and Arizona have had high school based transmission clusters.   Kids might be fine, but that doesn’t help older relatives when kids come home.
> 
> I agree that the risk from outdoor sports seems way overstated.  We just had 6200 older people sitting together in an airconditioned indoor arena, and we’re worried about 22 high school kids outside plus 14 more with masks?


I'm talking OC dad of 4.  Come on man, lighten up for the teenagers.  No healthy teenagers has risk.  This is getting dumb for the u17 crowd.  Let the kiddos exercise for goodness snakes.


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## futboldad1 (Jun 23, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I'm talking OC dad of 4.  Come on man, lighten up for the teenagers.  No healthy teenagers has risk.  This is getting dumb for the u17 crowd.  Let the kiddos exercise for goodness snakes.


Exactly....... u-18s are not at risk.... and outside is the place to be.... harder for basketball indoor courts


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## Grace T. (Jun 23, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Youth sports has been placed in higher risk by the politicians or health officials for whatever there reasons are?   Not that I agree so I let my county, state reps know that and urge them to get the guidance out so more recreation activities and full play can get going again.


But this is part of the problem.  The reps and experts are now 1) playing favorites (protests o.k. but worship outside is limited, theatres where people won't wear masks because they are eating and what's worse have airconditioning v. youth sports which are played outside), and 2) going for the low hanging fruit (people won't riot because their kids can't play youth sports...kids don't vote so keep the schools closed....but shut down a riot that's hard and will make us look bad).


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## watfly (Jun 23, 2020)

Looking past the headlines for San Diego County:

Total hospitalizations as a percentage of population: 0.05% (5 one hundredths of a percent)
Total deaths as a percentage of population: .01% (1 one hundredths of a percent)

Current hospital beds in use is the 2nd lowest its been since the beginning of April
7 day running average of daily hospitalizations is down 44% from its peak (25 vs 14)
7 day running average of deaths is down 56% from its peak (5.86 vs 2.57)

0-19 age deaths: 0 SD County and California
0-19 hospitalizations as a percentage of total hospitalizations: 2.1% (despite the fact they represent 25% of SD population)

Yes, the positive tests are up which is due to a variety of reasons, more testing, mass protests, additional reopenings.  This result is to be expected, but is much less serious from a health and welfare (obviously economic too) than keeping things closed down.

There is zero scientific or common sense basis for preventing kids (the least vulnerable by a long shot) from playing sports.  If tattoo parlors and nail salons can open (as well they should), its absurd not to allow kids to resume sports.  If you don't think were getting played, you're either not paying attention or you defer to our government to regulate your non-criminal personal behaviors.  (However, please wear a mask as you resume activity out of respect for others until the hysteria subsides).  If your not comfortable having your child play soccer, then don't...more power to you. The country was founded on freedom of choice.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 23, 2020)

dad4 said:


> More like 10 and under.  Both Israel and Arizona have had high school based transmission clusters.   Kids might be fine, but that doesn’t help older relatives when kids come home.
> 
> I agree that the risk from outdoor sports seems way overstated.  We just had 6200 older people sitting together in an airconditioned indoor arena, and we’re worried about 22 high school kids outside plus 14 more with masks?


Haven’t your experts told us that they have found that A Symptomatic cases aren’t communicating the virus?


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> There is zero scientific or common sense basis for preventing kids (the least vulnerable by a long shot) from playing sports.


Zero?


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Zero?


Pretty much zero. The risk to them is LESS than the FLU, and we don't shut down kids from playing sports during the flu season. And when a kid gets the flu on the team....the team continues on with practice etc.

And since kids based on what we know now do not seem to be spreaders of the covid...what exactly is the concern about youth sports exactly?


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Deaths from all causes is up 3% this year through today compared to the expected deaths (average of the last three years adjusted for population growth).





__





						Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

National Center for Health Statistics




					www.cdc.gov


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Pretty much zero. The risk to them is LESS than the FLU, and we don't shut down kids from playing sports during the flu season. And when a kid gets the flu on the team....the team continues on with practice etc.
> 
> And since kids based on what we know now do not seem to be spreaders of the covid...what exactly is the concern about youth sports exactly?


Is 3% pretty much close to zero?


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Pretty much zero. The risk to them is LESS than the FLU, and we don't shut down kids from playing sports during the flu season. And when a kid gets the flu on the team....the team continues on with practice etc.
> 
> And since kids based on what we know now do not seem to be spreaders of the covid...what exactly is the concern about youth sports exactly?


Do you have some source for your claim that kids do not seem to be spreaders of the covid?


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Deaths from all causes is up 3% this year through today compared to the expected deaths (average of the last three years adjusted for population growth).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then stay home on your knees.


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## watfly (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Zero?


Fair point.  I meant to say there is zero scientific or commons sense basis for youth sports not being allowed at this point.  No evidence of youth sports being a greater risk than activities that have been allowed like mass protests, nail salons, in person dining.  In fact, there is substantial evidence that youth sports are significantly less risky than most activities that have been allowed.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Then stay home on your knees.


It appears that you have no issue with the statistics.


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## gkmom (Jun 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> Looking past the headlines for San Diego County:
> 
> Total hospitalizations as a percentage of population: 0.05% (5 one hundredths of a percent)
> Total deaths as a percentage of population: .01% (1 one hundredths of a percent)
> ...


While your data is accurate on current stats, there is a lag time for hospitalizations and deaths. The recent spikes this week in San  Diego will have a two to three week lag time. That's what I'm keeping my eye on.
It's true that kids are low risk, but it's the spreading to others which is the concern.
I do agree that it makes no sense why certain entities are open, and others are not.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> Fair point.  I meant to say there is zero scientific or commons sense basis for youth sports being of greater risk than activities that have been allowed like mass protests, nail salons, in person dining.  In fact, there is substantial evidence that youth sports are significantly less risky than most activities that have been allowed.


What substantial evidence are you referring to?


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Do you have some source for your claim that kids do not seem to be spreaders of the covid?


SOURCE: Gov't Officials, "Experts" and you quiet as a church mouse during weeks of massive at protests.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

From the CDC:

For children (0-17 years), cumulative COVID-19 hospitalization rates are much lower than cumulative influenza hospitalization rates at comparable time points* during recent influenza seasons.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

gkmom said:


> While your data is accurate on current stats, there is a lag time for hospitalizations and deaths. The recent spikes this week in San  Diego will have a two to three week lag time. That's what I'm keeping my eye on.
> It's true that kids are low risk, but it's the spreading to others which is the concern.
> I do agree that it makes no sense why certain entities are open, and others are not.


Florida and Georgia, with their early opening policies, are striving to catch up with the rest of the country.









						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


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## lafalafa (Jun 23, 2020)

As IAM waiting outside to pickup some food I ordered outside wearing a mask.   Two *unmasked* Police officers walk in, door opened for them and they order and walk out with food while the rest of in the line are wow nice, priority service and different rules for the privileged.  At that point yes I have to say I've feel like I've been "played" since nobody else can even walk -in.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> SOURCE: Gov't Officials, "Experts" and you quiet as a church mouse during weeks of massive at protests.


Pitiful.

If you want to express an opinion that youth sports should be allowed ASAP, that is your right.

If you are trying to justify that by citing some imaginary data or sources, that is dishonest.  That is also your right, by the way, but people will make note of it.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> As IAM waiting outside to pickup some food I ordered outside wearing a mask.   Two *unmasked* Police officers walk in, door opened for them and they order and walk out with food while the rest of in the line are wow nice, priority service and different rules for the privileged.  At that point yes I have to say I've feel like I've been "played" since nobody else can even walk -in.


Seems like a good reason to complain to your local police.


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## EOTL (Jun 23, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> As IAM waiting outside to pickup some food I ordered outside wearing a mask.   Two *unmasked* Police officers walk in, door opened for them and they order and walk out with food while the rest of in the line are wow nice, priority service and different rules for the privileged.  At that point yes I have to say I've feel like I've been "played" since nobody else can even walk -in.


They didn’t shoot an unarmed black person, so that’s something. Maybe after lunch.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> From the CDC:
> 
> For children (0-17 years), cumulative COVID-19 hospitalization rates are much lower than cumulative influenza hospitalization rates at comparable time points* during recent influenza seasons.


Is this in response to something already posted?  Or are you just throwing out numbers?


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## outside! (Jun 23, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> As IAM waiting outside to pickup some food I ordered outside wearing a mask.   Two *unmasked* Police officers walk in, door opened for them and they order and walk out with food while the rest of in the line are wow nice, priority service and different rules for the privileged.  At that point yes I have to say I've feel like I've been "played" since nobody else can even walk -in.


Pics or it didn't happen. Seriously though, take a picture or videio when you see stuff like this.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

Despite a variety of states opening up in May...and despite more people showing up as infected (we are testing a lot more)...the CDC states that:
Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia, influenza or COVID-19 (PIC) decreased from 11.4% during week 23 to 7.1% during week 24. This is the eighth week during which a declining percentage of deaths due to PIC has been recorded


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Is this in response to something already posted?  Or are you just throwing out numbers?


This in response to why we should open up and let kids play sports...which is the topic of this thread right?

And related to what the thread is about...the CDC points out that kids have less of an issue with covid vs the flu. And yet we dont stop sports for the flu do we espola?


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## dad4 (Jun 23, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Haven’t your experts told us that they have found that A Symptomatic cases aren’t communicating the virus?


That was just WHO, and they backpedaled it when all the researchers said “WTF???”.

Current guidance is that a little less than half of transmission is from people who do not yet show symptoms.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> This in response to why we should open up and let kids play sports...which is the topic of this thread right?
> 
> And related to what the thread is about...the CDC points out that kids have less of an issue with covid vs the flu. And yet we dont stop sports for the flu do we espola?


Kids can get flu vaccine shots and there is a large catalog of effective treatments for kids who get it anyway.

We are working on the equivalents for covid-19 right now.


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## dawson (Jun 23, 2020)

*Why officials aren't alarmed by spiking coronavirus cases ...*
www.latimes.com › california › story › alarmed-by-spi...

1 day ago - (Gary Coronado / Los Angeles _Times_) ... The _county_, a hotbed of _COVID_-19 in California, now has reported more than 3,000 deaths and 80,000 confirmed cases. ... relatively steady, while average daily deaths have declined, _L.A. officials_ said.

" But health officials continue to discount those concerns, saying total new cases is not the best measure of community spread because of aggressive levels of new testing. *They point to other metrics they say show that the local outbreak has stabilized* — even though the number of new cases increased by nearly 20,000 in the last two weeks and by more than 3,600 just over the weekend.

*Two key indicators — the positivity rate and average number of daily hospitalizations* — *have continued to remain relatively stead*y, while average daily deaths have declined, *L.A. officials said*. Officials said they are monitoring the metrics closely and could impose new restrictions if needed.

“The most important data continues to be looking at our death data and our hospitalization data and our rate of positivity, and ... all of the indicators really point to the fact that we are fairly stable and that we in fact continue to slow the spread of COVID-19,” *Barbara Ferrer, the county’s health director, said Friday.*

The average daily number of hospitalizations has been decreasing since late April, *Ferrer said Friday*, although she did note there has been a slight increase over the past three days. That could be because most hospitals are now testing all patients for COVID-19, even those who are being treated for unrelated issues, she said.

The seven-day average of daily deaths has also been trending downward since April 12,* Ferrer said.* The average reached its highest peak in early May, when 45 to 46 people were dying each day. In early June, the rate had slowed to 20 to 30 deaths a day, she said.."


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> It appears that you have no issue with the statistics.


...no issue with the statistics, used them in the original post. It's the selective enforcement and outrage, along with subjugation, that I take issue with...to which you're the best example.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Despite a variety of states opening up in May...and despite more people showing up as infected (we are testing a lot more)...the CDC states that:
> Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia, influenza or COVID-19 (PIC) decreased from 11.4% during week 23 to 7.1% during week 24. This is the eighth week during which a declining percentage of deaths due to PIC has been recorded


In the USA, the infections and deaths from pneumonia and influenza taper off after April almost every year.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Deaths from all causes is up 3% this year through today compared to the expected deaths (average of the last three years adjusted for population growth).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is some good stuff, espola. Thank you for posting.

Here is CA weekly deaths with a 95% Confidence Interval line (Expect about 1 in 20 months to be above the line). While data isn't complete for the most recent weeks, they attempt to "predict" the total each week based on how previous weeks have added deaths as time passes. The spike over the line in January, 2018 was due to the flu.


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## lafalafa (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Seems like a good reason to complain to your local police.


There weren't my local police from a nearby City that I don't have interaction with.

One of my children works in food services and they told me same thing had been going  on in our city. Up until this week they could only suggest mask use but now with the state wide order required unless you're in that "special" class where it's don't ask or advise per management.


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ...no issue with the statistics, used them in the original post. It's the selective enforcement and outrage, along with subjugation, that I take issue with...to which you're the best example.


Best example of what?  I think you should do whatever you want, but if I observe anyone making vacuous or incorrect statements, what I want to do is to point that out.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Kids can get flu vaccine shots and there is a large catalog of effective treatments for kids who get it anyway.
> 
> We are working on the equivalents for covid-19 right now.


What is the effectiveness of the flu vaccine?


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Florida and Georgia, with their early opening policies, are striving to catch up with the rest of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess they have a long way to go.

Per the CDC.

NY 29k
PA 6300
MA 7k
NJ 12500

And we can look at the 4 states including/by FL and GA
GA 1900
FL 2700
SC 550
AL 813

This link shows deaths by state.

You should also look at deaths by week in the US and note how despite states opening up, more testing positive...deaths have plummeted.

The week of 4/18 the US had 16300 deaths
The week of 6/13 the US had 1260 deaths




__





						Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

National Center for Health Statistics




					www.cdc.gov


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 23, 2020)

dad4 said:


> That was just WHO, and they backpedaled it when all the researchers said “WTF???”.
> 
> Current guidance is that a little less than half of transmission is from people who do not yet show symptoms.


Who’s guidance?

“Maria Van Kerkhove, the WHO’s technical lead on the Covid-19 pandemic, made it very clear Tuesday that the actual rates of asymptomatic transmissions aren’t yet known.”









						'We don’t actually have that answer yet': WHO clarifies comments on asymptomatic spread of Covid-19
					

After strong pushback from public health experts, a top WHO official clarified scientists don’t know yet how often asymptomatic Covid-19 patients are spreading the disease to others.




					www.statnews.com


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## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Kids can get flu vaccine shots and there is a large catalog of effective treatments for kids who get it anyway.
> 
> We are working on the equivalents for covid-19 right now.


And again...the CDC is reporting that kids have LESS issues with COVID then they do with the FLU. This is despite there being a FLU vaccine and effective treatments.

What part of the CDC info is confusing to you?


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 23, 2020)

EOTL said:


> They didn’t shoot an unarmed black person, so that’s something. Maybe after lunch.


They haven't shot any unarmed black people.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 23, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Who’s guidance?
> 
> “Maria Van Kerkhove, the WHO’s technical lead on the Covid-19 pandemic, made it very clear Tuesday that the actual rates of asymptomatic transmissions aren’t yet known.”
> 
> ...


Might as well be these guys...


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## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> And again...the CDC is reporting that kids have LESS issues with COVID then they do with the FLU. This is despite there being a FLU vaccine and effective treatments.
> 
> What part of the CDC info is confusing to you?


I'm not confused by any CDC info because you haven't presented any.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> I'm not confused by any CDC info because you haven't presented any.


This is directly from the CDC.

"For children (0-17 years), cumulative COVID-19 hospitalization rates are much lower than cumulative influenza hospitalization rates at comparable time points* during recent influenza seasons."


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Deaths from all causes is up 3% this year through today compared to the expected deaths (average of the last three years adjusted for population growth).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How much of that is a result of the lockdowns? Suicides, Domestic Violence, People scared of going to emergency rooms because theyre scared of getting COVID, etc.


----------



## SocalPapa (Jun 23, 2020)

ajaxahi said:


> So you think I’m cherry-picking by citing Covid-19 death data from the state where we actually live? That’s funny.


And ironically California might be too big to compare to those two "entire" countries.  It has 19% more land mass than Germany and its population is 700% that of the tiny city-state of Singapore.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> This is directly from the CDC.
> 
> "For children (0-17 years), cumulative COVID-19 hospitalization rates are much lower than cumulative influenza hospitalization rates at comparable time points* during recent influenza seasons."


Link?


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Kids can get flu vaccine shots and there is a large catalog of effective treatments for kids who get it anyway.
> 
> We are working on the equivalents for covid-19 right now.


So COVID is less dangerous than the Flu  for kids even with the flu vaccine.  Got it.  Thanks.


----------



## chiefs (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Kids can get flu vaccine shots and there is a large catalog of effective treatments for kids who get it anyway.
> 
> We are working on the equivalents for covid-19 right now.


Even with kids receiving flu vaccine shots, they are effected exponentially more by the flu virus then the Covid virus.   ALL DATA points show kids are fine to play.


----------



## SocalPapa (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> You should also look at deaths by week in the US and note how despite states opening up, more testing positive...deaths have plummeted.
> 
> The week of 4/18 the US had 16300 deaths
> The week of 6/13 the US had 1260 deaths
> ...


It does seem there is a decline but we don't know by how much yet looking at the CDC data because there is a significant reporting lag.  As the footnote on the CDC Provisional Death Count page says: "Previous analyses of 2015–2016 provisional data completeness have found that completeness is lower in the first few weeks following the date of death (<25%), and then increases over time such that data are generally at least 75% complete within 8 weeks of when the death occurred."  See https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm.  On top of this reporting delay it's at least 2-8 weeks from infection to death. So it could be a while before we can judge the true impact of these new outbreaks.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Even with kids receiving flu vaccine shots, they are effected exponentially more by the flu virus then the Covid virus.   ALL DATA points show kids are fine to play.


Could you please present ALL DATA and your personal definition for "exponentially"?


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Could you please present ALL DATA and your personal definition for "exponentially"?


Are you denying the flu kills children under 17 (Even though we have a flu vaccine) while there are 0 COVID deaths for kids under 17 in california?


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Are you denying the flu kills children under 17 (Even though we have a flu vaccine) while there are 0 COVID deaths for kids under 17 in california?


Maybe.  I would like to see the data source first.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 23, 2020)

SocalPapa said:


> It does seem there is a decline but we don't know by how much yet looking at the CDC data because there is a significant reporting lag.  As the footnote on the CDC Provisional Death Count page says: "Previous analyses of 2015–2016 provisional data completeness have found that completeness is lower in the first few weeks following the date of death (<25%), and then increases over time such that data are generally at least 75% complete within 8 weeks of when the death occurred."  See https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm.  On top of this reporting delay it's at least 2-8 weeks from infection to death. So it could be a while before we can judge the true impact of these new outbreaks.


They do project a "final" number of deaths up to the current full week based on adjusting real data for expected growth due to future reporting. Here it is for the US. Same things apply as stated for my previous post regarding CA. Both this and the CA graph support that deaths have been falling significantly from the peak.


----------



## chiefs (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Could you please present ALL DATA and your personal definition for "exponentially"?


No reason to be a broken record, please do your own research. Where's your data that shows the flu is less deadlier than Covid?I have plenty of data. Don't rely on data posted here, take the time and effort to come to your own conclusions. It's easy to ask questions and play devil's advocate. When Data shows that there is a zero percent chance my kid will die from the Covid virus, I am very comfortable for my kid to play, bottom line.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

chiefs said:


> No reason to be a broken record, please do your own research. Where's your data that shows the flu is less deadlier than Covid?I have plenty of data. Don't rely on data posted here, take the time and effort to come to your own conclusions. It's easy to ask questions and play devil's advocate. When Data shows that there is a zero percent chance my kid will die from the Covid virus, I am very comfortable for my kid to play, bottom line.


You're the one who made the claim, so you should be the one doing the reasearch.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Link?











						COVID Data Tracker Weekly Review
					

The week’s key data, narrative interpretations, & visualizations.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Maybe.  I would like to see the data source first.







__





						Estimated Flu-Related Illnesses, Medical visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2018–2019 Flu  Season | CDC
					

CDC calculates estimates of disease burden in the United States using surveillance data and modeling to adjust for sources of under-detection. Burden estimates for the 2018-2019 season found here.




					www.cdc.gov
				





*Symptomatic Illnesses**Medical Visits**Hospitalizations**Deaths* *Age group**Estimate**95% UI**Estimate**95% UI**Estimate**95% UI**Estimate**95%UI*0-4 yrs3,633,104(2,506,551, 7,199,330)2,434,180(1,667,892, 4,820,252)25,328(17,475, 50,191)266(85, 713)5-17 yrs7,663,310(6,027,982, 10,438,419)3,984,921(3,067,414, 5,415,715)21,012(16,528, 28,621)211(38, 640)


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> COVID Data Tracker Weekly Review
> 
> 
> The week’s key data, narrative interpretations, & visualizations.
> ...


Thank you.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





MSK357 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's for 2018-19, and it's for all of USA, not just California.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Thank you.


No problem


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> That's for 2018-19, and it's for all of USA, not just California.


you can look at the other years, its on the same website.  Then you can compare it to all covid deaths at under 17 years of age in the U.S.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 23, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> They do project a "final" number of deaths up to the current full week based on adjusting real data for expected growth due to future reporting. Here it is for the US. Same things apply as stated for my previous post regarding CA. Both this and the CA graph support that deaths have been falling significantly from the peak.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 7854


I should have looked closer. The last week is the week ending June 6th. So, they appear to wait a full two weeks before trying to report anything. I would expect them to be able to project pretty accurately at this point given that much runway. The week ending June 6th is actually just under the 95% CI bar (same with CA).

The lags make it difficult to really get a feel for what direction things are moving currently. Positive testing doesn't correlate as strongly to hospitalization and then deaths as it did in the beginning when only obviously sick people were being tested. AZ was in the news recently about positive testing, but the lags were significant for their data. So, I keep looking at the ICU Hospital Beds available as these numbers can be reported daily without lag. They have leveled off the past week around 85%. The most recent plateau is from 6/16-6/22/


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> you can look at the other years, its on the same website.  Then you can compare it to all covid deaths at under 17 years of age in the U.S.


Your challenge was "Are you denying the flu kills children under 17 (Even though we have a flu vaccine) while there are 0 COVID deaths for kids under 17 in California?"

Your quoted source says nothing of the "California" part.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> Your challenge was "Are you denying the flu kills children under 17 (Even though we have a flu vaccine) while there are 0 COVID deaths for kids under 17 in California?"
> 
> Your quoted source says nothing of the "California" part.


Here you go:




__





						COVID-19 Cases by Age Group
					






					www.cdph.ca.gov
				





Age GroupNo. CasesPercent CasesNo. DeathsPercent DeathsPercent CA population<52,9881.700.05.85-1710,3585.800.016.7


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see that all that social isolation wasn't for nothing.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> I'm glad to see that all that social isolation wasn't for nothing.


Social Isolation had nothing to do with it. Lets not pretend kids arent out playing with friends, soccer, or even protesting without a mask.

Well at least you now know COVID is safer for children 17 and under compared to the flu (With a vaccine).  Time to open up schools and sports.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 23, 2020)

Data is this.  Many kids are not doing much except: _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________I see kids playing at the beach and all over the place.  I see protesters who look like kids, who spend hours upon hours protesting for what they believe in and I support that btw, as long as it's peaceful.  I see other young adults not in school and their fighting for their cause. My kid would like to get some exercise at soccer camp for the next month or so.  What is so wrong with that?  We haven't started playing a game yet either.  Buzz off for goodness snakes and find something else to do. Maybe change the thread to "Time To Camp."  Let's all come back August 1st and talk Corona with a lime and a grain of salt.  We can have espy and dad of 4, plus Copa go over the facts for July's data numbers.  One thing I love about math, numbers never lie.  They can't because numbers speak the truth, unless the numbers have been played with as some like to play number games.  Scare tactics is causing much confusion and sadness to our youth.  Sports for youth need to be allowed, like now dad of 4.  Dang bro, I give you credited for dealing with 4 kids, all under 10 and have all the time you give us on the forum. Thank for sharing your opinion btw.  Dad drops off kiddo and takes a one hour walk so he stops getting fat.  Or, you can go meditate on something freaking positive and stay away from news channel.  Time to camp, campers!!!


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Social Isolation had nothing to do with it. Lets not pretend kids arent out playing with friends, soccer, or even protesting without a mask.
> 
> Well at least you now know COVID is safer for children 17 and under compared to the flu (With a vaccine).  Time to open up schools and sports.


A lot of diseases are less severe in prepubescent childhood, like chicken pox, mumps, some types of measles.  Some diseases are not less severe.  Since this is, by definition, the first year of research and health statistics for Covid-19, no one knows which group it is in.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> A lot of diseases are less severe in prepubescent childhood, like chicken pox, mumps, some types of measles.  Some diseases are not less severe.  Since this is, by definition, the first year of research and health statistics for Covid-19, no one knows which group it is in.


Right...COVID could actually be worse than the flu that actually kills healthy children...


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Right...COVID could actually be worse than the flu that actually kills healthy children...


You can do whatever you want with yourself and your kids.  

If you think you are making an informed decision when no one knows yet what the facts are, you're not.  You're making a bet.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> You can do whatever you want with yourself and your kids.
> 
> If you think you are making an informed decision when no one knows yet what the facts are, you're not.  You're making a bet.


When it comes to children, stats say my child is more likely to die from flu. do you disagree? I guess we should have had kids wearing masks every flu season. lol  I guess we've all been gambling with our kids lives during state cup.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> When it comes to children, stats say my child is more likely to die from flu. do you disagree? I guess we should have had kids wearing masks every flu season. lol


You know who keeps the best stats?  Casinos.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> You know who keeps the best stats?  Casinos.


Did you have your kids play soccer during flu season?  I know that was like 40 years ago, if you did, why did you risk their lives to dying from the flu?  We both know that the flu kills more children under 17 than COVID now.


----------



## espola (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Did you have your kids play soccer during flu season?  I know that was like 40 years ago, if you did, why did you risk their lives to dying from the flu?  We both know that the flu kills more children under 17 than COVID now.


We all take risks.  I'm sure you're comfortable with the ones you are taking.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

espola said:


> We all take risks.  I'm sure you're comfortable with the ones you are taking.


yes, im comfortable with a virus with a lower mortality rate than the flu based on my age and the age of my children.


----------



## paytoplay (Jun 23, 2020)

Where’s the middle ground in all this? How about let the kids play? BUT parents wear your goddamn masks?! So many idiots with no masks.


----------



## ChrisD (Jun 23, 2020)

I work with a softball ump/ref/blue and he said that he has two games this weekend and large tournament 1st week of July, locally were Im at you can see softball teams in the major schools practicing already .  Sports are sport right ?  Any leeway with softball?


----------



## Soccer43 (Jun 23, 2020)

I am definitely looking forward to getting back to soccer.  After pages and pages on this forum of dads discussing COVID stats and their statistical analysis and amateur epidemiologist opinions....


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

ChrisD said:


> I work with a softball ump/ref/blue and he said that he has two games this weekend and large tournament 1st week of July, locally were Im at you can see softball teams in the major schools practicing already .  Sports are sport right ?  Any leeway with softball?


All star softball tournaments for my daughter are starting 2nd weekend of July through 3rd weekend of august to include every weekend in between. Locations are Santee, beaumont, irvine to name a few. None in LA County.


----------



## watfly (Jun 23, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> All star softball tournaments for my daughter are starting 2nd weekend of July through 3rd weekend of august to include every weekend in between. Locations are Santee, beaumont, irvine to name a few. None in LA County.


What are the attendance rules for parents?


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 23, 2020)

watfly said:


> What are the attendance rules for parents?


To be honest I didn't really pay attention during the parents meeting, but I did catch that the girls can't do their normal team cheers before games in the batters circle because of the proximity to each other. The girls don't have to wear masks in the dug out by they have to be spread apart as much as possible. I know a lot of the parents like to sit in the outfield anyway so they can sneak some adult beverages.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 23, 2020)

I just got back from our daughter's 1st soccer practice in a field. All the parents dropped of the girls,  they had to take the temperature, they were wearing mask, each one had a square and they couldnt leave the square.  They were sprinting with a good 10 feet distance from each other. The  Coach had a mask and maintained distance. 

So, I started walking to the other side of the park, and I find baseball players with no social distancing, softball players huddled up, and 5v5 basketball game for some 30+ old men.     

I just shook my head thinking, only the young soccer players are stuck following the rules.  LOL


----------



## jpeter (Jun 23, 2020)

Usclub leagues have decided it's time to play starting leagues back up July 11th at the IE complex:
http://events.gotsport.com/events/Default.aspx?eventid=75354 

Cal south has July play dates so soccer is starting back up it appears one way or the other.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 23, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Then stay home on your knees.
> [/QUOTE
> It's really interesting to realize that there are so many people who lack flexibility, fortitude, and patience. This generation, the "me" generation,  probably could not have survived WWI or WW2.  The US deaths during WW1 from military action was about 54,000 and another 63,000 from the Spanish flu of individuals in the military,  for a total of about 117,000. Less than what we have lost in six months from covid. But hey, out of site out of mind.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 23, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> I just got back from our daughter's 1st soccer practice in a field. All the parents dropped of the girls,  they had to take the temperature, they were wearing mask, each one had a square and they couldnt leave the square.  They were sprinting with a good 10 feet distance from each other. The  Coach had a mask and maintained distance.
> 
> So, I started walking to the other side of the park, and I find baseball players with no social distancing, softball players huddled up, and 5v5 basketball game for some 30+ old men.
> 
> I just shook my head thinking, only the young soccer players are stuck following the rules.  LOL





MicPaPa said:


> What is the effectiveness of the flu vaccine?


About 70% for seasonal flu.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 23, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Even with kids receiving flu vaccine shots, they are effected exponentially more by the flu virus then the Covid virus.   ALL DATA points show kids are fine to play.


You do realize it is not that kids will get really sick from covid but that they will spread it to their parents, teachers (if school resumes) family and friends.  Then all those people will spread it to others.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 23, 2020)

Beautiful night at the Great Park tonight.  I felt safe.  I saw all the soccer players, coaches and the parents following all the rules.  Others sports, not so much and wont snitch on the hoop players but.........All and all a great night and the girls had fun


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> You do realize it is not that kids will get really sick from covid but that they will spread it to their parents, teachers (if school resumes) family and friends.  Then all those people will spread it to others.


...soooo, we all hide in our houses till when?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> About 70% for seasonal flu.


Actually 45%...but hey, they're "experts"...what's a few percentage points when it comes to our freedoms and daily lives.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Beautiful night at the Great Park tonight.  I felt safe.  I saw all the soccer players, coaches and the parents following all the rules.  Others sports, not so much and wont snitch on the hoop players but.........All and all a great night and the girls had fun


My daughter's first comment was "it's not the same, we can't really talk to each other."

Risk vs. reward... that's life.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> About 70% for seasonal flu.


Depends on the year, its been lower than 50% some years.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> You do realize it is not that kids will get really sick from covid but that they will spread it to their parents, teachers (if school resumes) family and friends.  Then all those people will spread it to others.


yup, just like the flu that kills more kids than COVID.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ...soooo, we all hide in our houses till when?


And that is the problem people are not thinking about. 


1) for the vast majority of people there is little risk associated with covid
2) if you are young, virtually no risk
3) 40+% of all deaths are people in assisted/nursing home situations
4) we dont know if there will be a vaccine, how effective one may be, and how long it will take before it becomes available. The various experts say 18 months or so. 

So with little risk to the overall population, the uncertainty if we get a vaccine, etc. How long are we going to run around wearing masks, not opening up all biz, etc? What play it "safe" for another year and a half and hope by then some vaccine comes around? 

Because the virus isn't just going away if we hide in our houses.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> My daughter's first comment was "it's not the same, we can't really talk to each other."
> 
> Risk vs. reward... that's life.


Or, "what is this?"  It is hard to explain to a street smart kid about all the hypocrisy going on with the adults.  Kids see right through this.  The only place in OC that I saw the rules followed strictly was at the former El Toro Marine Base 1300+ acres, The Great Park.  Some dam good Marines came from that land and its pretty much a place where rules should be followed.  Keep in mind this is phase 1 and only the beginning of what will be an incredible fall soccer season at the ECNL.  Let me break it all down on how I see things going this year.   
Phase 1=Pre-Camp Conditioning.  No hard core ganas games.  Lot's of preventive care and ACL exercises.  
Phase 2= Real Camp Starts.  Finalize your roster
Phase 3= Time to Play.  Ganas begins
Phase 4= ECNL Fall Ball


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> And that is the problem people are not thinking about.
> 
> 
> 1) for the vast majority of people there is little risk associated with covid
> ...


How will we deal with not having enough ICU beds to treat the most ill?  If we just look at the increase rate over the last week in ICU cases in Orange County, we will reach capacity in about 9 weeks for licensed ICU beds.   As far as hospital beds in total, if we keep increasing at the rate we have in the last 2 weeks, we start reaching some serious capacity concerns in October.   What options do we have then?  What do you think the State or county will do then?  Go to another county where they are also experiencing increasing rates?  Can we slow the spread....yes.  Wear a mask in every day life when social distancing can't be accomplished.  Recent studies show it.  All of the people refusing to do it are contributing to a most certain shut down again at some level.

I just want the kids to get back out before they start various levels of shut down again.  The kids being outside with all of the safeguards is pretty low risk of contracting the illness.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> How will we deal with not having enough ICU beds to treat the most ill?  If we just look at the increase rate over the last week in ICU cases in Orange County, we will reach capacity in about 9 weeks for licensed ICU beds.   As far as hospital beds in total, if we keep increasing at the rate we have in the last 2 weeks, we start reaching some serious capacity concerns in October.   What options do we have then?  What do you think the State or county will do then?  Go to another county where they are also experiencing increasing rates?  Can we slow the spread....yes.  Wear a mask in every day life when social distancing can't be accomplished.  Recent studies show it.  All of the people refusing to do it are contributing to a most certain shut down again at some level.
> 
> I just want the kids to get back out before they start various levels of shut down again.  The kids being outside with all of the safeguards is pretty low risk of contracting the illness.
> 
> View attachment 7878


Phase 1 pre-camp is ok, right?


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> How will we deal with not having enough ICU beds to treat the most ill?  If we just look at the increase rate over the last week in ICU cases in Orange County, we will reach capacity in about 9 weeks for licensed ICU beds.   As far as hospital beds in total, if we keep increasing at the rate we have in the last 2 weeks, we start reaching some serious capacity concerns in October.   What options do we have then?  What do you think the State or county will do then?  Go to another county where they are also experiencing increasing rates?  Can we slow the spread....yes.  Wear a mask in every day life when social distancing can't be accomplished.  Recent studies show it.  All of the people refusing to do it are contributing to a most certain shut down again at some level.
> 
> I just want the kids to get back out before they start various levels of shut down again.  The kids being outside with all of the safeguards is pretty low risk of contracting the illness.
> 
> View attachment 7878


I can understand the reluctance of believing the experts regarding masks considering the multiple flip-flops of the WHO and Fauci, who knowingly lied about his belief in the effectiveness of wearing a mask. However, there's enough evidence to believe that wearing a mask and social distancing is effective. It's not all bad news for soccer. If the protests aren't behind any known spikes, then kids playing soccer outdoors with parents wearing masks won't cause any spikes either.









						Coronavirus surges aren't linked to Black Lives Matter protests
					

Protests were as common in places with surging coronavirus cases as in others. However, new spikes are in places with a lower rate of spread so far.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> And that is the problem people are not thinking about.
> 
> 
> 1) for the vast majority of people there is little risk associated with covid
> ...


Flu vaccine effectiveness averages around 50%. After decades there is still no AIDS vaccine. The outright hypocrisy and petty politics from government officials and "experts" is pathetic. Ultimately, this should be an individual decision...times up.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Actually 45%...but hey, they're "experts"...what's a few percentage points when it comes to our freedoms and daily lives.


Anyone is free to refuse the flu shot, even when in a medical situation and the doctor recommends it.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Or, "what is this?"  It is hard to explain to a street smart kid about all the hypocrisy going on with the adults.  Kids see right through this.  The only place in OC that I saw the rules followed strictly was at the former El Toro Marine Base 1300+ acres, The Great Park.  Some dam good Marines came from that land and its pretty much a place where rules should be followed.  Keep in mind this is phase 1 and only the beginning of what will be an incredible fall soccer season at the ECNL.  Let me break it all down on how I see things going this year.
> Phase 1=Pre-Camp Conditioning.  No hard core ganas games.  Lot's of preventive care and ACL exercises.
> Phase 2= Real Camp Starts.  Finalize your roster
> Phase 3= Time to Play.  Ganas begins
> Phase 4= ECNL Fall Ball


Kids have been isolated since March, they can't even get close enough on the field to talk and see each other's expressions...This plan lacks logic and common sense, it's unacceptable.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Anyone is free to refuse the flu shot, even when in a medical situation and the doctor recommends it.


Exactly, why mass restrictive policy based on a voluntary 45% effective vaccine, if one is found at all?


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> How will we deal with not having enough ICU beds to treat the most ill?  If we just look at the increase rate over the last week in ICU cases in Orange County, we will reach capacity in about 9 weeks for licensed ICU beds.   As far as hospital beds in total, if we keep increasing at the rate we have in the last 2 weeks, we start reaching some serious capacity concerns in October.   What options do we have then?  What do you think the State or county will do then?  Go to another county where they are also experiencing increasing rates?  Can we slow the spread....yes.  Wear a mask in every day life when social distancing can't be accomplished.  Recent studies show it.  All of the people refusing to do it are contributing to a most certain shut down again at some level.
> 
> I just want the kids to get back out before they start various levels of shut down again.  The kids being outside with all of the safeguards is pretty low risk of contracting the illness.
> 
> View attachment 7878


We are not going to run out of beds. 

Even in the states hit the hardest (NY, NJ) where a substantial portion of all deaths have occurred never ran out of beds.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> My daughter's first comment was "it's not the same, we can't really talk to each other."
> 
> Risk vs. reward... that's life.


Tell her, model for her, be an example, IT IS NOT FOREVER!  Give her options, be positive about what she can do.  Of course it is not the same.  It is also not the same as sheltering in place.  We will get back to normal. Children reflect what the parents say and do.  Guess what?  Negative parents beget negative kids. Sit down with her and talk to her about what she is really missing, validate what she says then discuss options and what path we are on to get back to normal. We are developing better therapeutics, we will eventually get a vaccine.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> How will we deal with not having enough ICU beds to treat the most ill?  If we just look at the increase rate over the last week in ICU cases in Orange County, we will reach capacity in about 9 weeks for licensed ICU beds.   As far as hospital beds in total, if we keep increasing at the rate we have in the last 2 weeks, we start reaching some serious capacity concerns in October.   What options do we have then?  What do you think the State or county will do then?  Go to another county where they are also experiencing increasing rates?  Can we slow the spread....yes.  Wear a mask in every day life when social distancing can't be accomplished.  Recent studies show it.  All of the people refusing to do it are contributing to a most certain shut down again at some level.
> 
> I just want the kids to get back out before they start various levels of shut down again.  The kids being outside with all of the safeguards is pretty low risk of contracting the illness.
> 
> View attachment 7878


By the way here is the hospital ICU usage in CAL since the beginning of this. 

Total cases keep climbing...but ICU usage remains flat.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> We are not going to run out of beds.
> 
> Even in the states hit the hardest (NY, NJ) where a substantial portion of all deaths have occurred never ran out of beds.


The news is getting gnarly again.  We did have a lot of protesting all over the country the last few weeks, plus everyone has been out and about. Seems like the caution flag is out and we should move slowly, wear mask and live life still but watch the numbers and learn from the numbers. Politicians will always find a good spin on any numbers.......


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

And while ICU usage is flat...here is the chart showing ever increasing infections.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> The news is getting gnarly again.  We did have a lot of protesting all over the country the last few weeks, plus everyone has been out and about. Seems like the caution flag is out and we should move slowly, wear mask and live life still but watch the numbers and learn from the numbers. Politicians will always find a good spin on any numbers.......


The News is a ridiculous source...go with data.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

Another chart of hospital bed usage since this started. You can see the url in the image. Calmatters.org


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> We are not going to run out of beds.
> 
> Even in the states hit the hardest (NY, NJ) where a substantial portion of all deaths have occurred never ran out of beds.


Lets look at why New York never ran out of beds....THEY SHUT DOWN.  Which is the point.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> And while ICU usage is flat...here is the chart showing ever increasing infections.
> 
> View attachment 7880


 ICU cases increased 13% last week and 7.0% in one day yesterday.  FYI...flat is a straight line when looking at a chart.    I know the chart below is blurry but I believe you can see ICU beds have not remained flat.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Exactly, why mass restrictive policy based on a voluntary 45% effective vaccine, if one is found at all?


You may do whatever you want, but don't expect those who are responsible for the well-being of more than just your family to make policy based on your wishful thinking.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> The News is a ridiculous source...go with data.


Foxie news this morning had that "Alert news" thing and it's kinda of scary back ground news.  Stock numbers on the right, negative 600 pts, CDC numbers of this and that and more of this.  TX, CA, AZ and now FL getting more cases.  I think free pick up games is the way to go maybe.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> Another chart of hospital bed usage since this started. You can see the url in the image. Calmatt





Desert Hound said:


> Another chart of hospital bed usage since this started. You can see the url in the image. Calmatters.org
> 
> View attachment 7881


I don't know where your chart came from.  This is all of California.  Orange County as I have already shown is worse than the overall State.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

[


Desert Hound said:


> Another chart of hospital bed usage since this started. You can see the url in the image. Calmatters.org


Arizona ICU bed use is at 88%, and growing.  12% more, and you’ll start asking LA and SD to take them.









						AZDHS | Epidemiology & Disease Control - Mosquito Borne
					

Working to monitor, prevent and control diseases in Arizona through education, immunization and research.




					www.azdhs.gov
				




Arizona covid deaths are up, too.  79 yesterday.  

Hope you all listened to your governor and started wearing a mask in public.  He’s right.


----------



## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> ICU cases increased 13% last week and 7.0% in one day yesterday.  FYI...flat is a straight line when looking at a chart.    I know the chart below is blurry but I believe you can see ICU beds have not remained flat.  View attachment 7883


All I know is COVID-19 is not going away and there is no quick fix.   Might never be one like the flu that changes ever year with new vaccines.

When in public spaces or settings sometimes we might have to do things or take precautions we won't in private, some of us where already in that habit.  I don't particularly agree with some of the restrictions even if there erroring on the side of caution but that's one of givebacks when you out in the public where not everyone is on the same page.  However, as citizens we can let our voices be heard from the politicians & health officials who are making guidelines for us.

There is no going back to way things used to be, done gone.  The future is always different so let's make the best of that and make the adjustments best we can to enjoy as many things as we can safely.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2020)

Sweden followed a relaxed response to the covid-19 infection, while their immediate neighbors (Norway, Denmark, and FInland) were more restrictive than most states in the USA.  Just recently Sweden's neighbors closed their borders with Sweden to most traffic.  This graph may explain why.









						Covid Trends
					

Visualizing the exponential growth of COVID-19 across the world.




					aatishb.com


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> [
> 
> 
> Arizona ICU bed use is at 88%, and growing.  12% more, and you’ll start asking LA and SD to take them.
> ...


Speaking of listening to those "government officials" you so willingly subjugate to...this is where we're at.









						Oregon county issues face mask order that exempts nonwhite people
					

Lincoln County, Oregon, has exempted nonwhite people from a new order requiring that face coverings be worn in public — to prevent racial profiling. Health officials announced last week resid…




					nypost.com


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

espola said:


> Sweden followed a relaxed response to the covid-19 infection, while their immediate neighbors (Norway, Denmark, and FInland) were more restrictive than most states in the USA.  Just recently Sweden's neighbors closed their borders with Sweden to most traffic.  This graph may explain why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now do NY and NJ vs....say, FL and CA.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> All I know is COVID-19 is not going away and there is no quick fix.   Might never be one like the flu that changes ever year with new vaccines.
> 
> When in public spaces or settings sometimes we might have to do things or take precautions we won't in private, some of us where already in that habit.  I don't particularly agree with some of the restrictions even if there erroring on the side of caution but that's one of givebacks when you out in the public where not everyone is on the same page.  However, as citizens we can let our voices be heard from the politicians & health officials who are making guidelines for us.
> 
> There is no going back to way things used to be, done gone.  The future is always different so let's make the best of that and make the adjustments best we can to enjoy as many things as we can safely.


Well said...I have scratched my head at some of the choices the politicians have made that are not consistent with the risk.  One thing is definitely backed in RECENT studies and in fact history from 102 years ago....masks slow the spread and can prevent future shutdowns due to lack of hospital capacity.  102 years ago it was Northern California that was refusing to wear masks and Southern California did.  Northern California was hit much harder.  If I remember correctly they were hit 30% harder.  (I looked at the history article 2 months ago)  Right now Northern California is doing much better than Southern California where the freedom fighters for not wearing a mask (with same arguments as in 1918) are in full force fighting it every step of the way.  They are going to fight us back into shut down.  Philadelphia is doing great.  They are fining businesses where anyone is found not wearing a mask.  Probably the cemetery near by with 100s of thousands of people that died in 1918 probably helps them understand they need to head the warnings since they were ignored in 1918.  


In the new normal for my family, I am managing based on risk so that we can still live our life.   No indoor stuff.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Well said...I have scratched my head at some of the choices the politicians have made that are not consistent with the risk.  One thing is definitely backed in RECENT studies and in fact history from 102 years ago....masks slow the spread and can prevent future shutdowns due to lack of hospital capacity.  102 years ago it was Northern California that was refusing to wear masks and Southern California did.  Northern California was hit much harder.  If I remember correctly they were hit 30% harder.  (I looked at the history article 2 months ago)  Right now Northern California is doing much better than Southern California where the freedom fighters for not wearing a mask (with same arguments as in 1918) are in full force fighting it every step of the way.  They are going to fight us back into shut down.  Philadelphia is doing great.  They are fining businesses where anyone is found not wearing a mask.  Probably the cemetery near by with 100s of thousands of people that died in 1918 probably helps them understand they need to head the warnings since they were ignored in 1918.
> 
> 
> In the new normal for my family, I am managing based on risk so that we can still live our life.   No indoor stuff.


So who should be fined...the one not wearing the mask or the one who comes with six feet of them? 

I understand your point...do you understand mine?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> So who should be fined...the one not wearing the mask or the one who comes with six feet of them?
> 
> I understand your point...do you understand mine?


Not really. 

Limit gatherings and wear a mask seems easy enough to do.  Why fight it?   The mask is the least annoying of all the things happening right now.


----------



## watfly (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Lets look at why New York never ran out of beds....THEY SHUT DOWN.  Which is the point.


Are you serious?  NY was a complete clusterf%#@.  Forcing nursing homes to take COVID patients.  Significantly reduced subway service so that essential workers were forced to travel on insanely crowded subway cars.  Deciding not to clean subway cars until the beginning of May.  25% loss in hospital beds and the worst hospitals in the country due to budget shortfalls that led to the significant reduction in Medicaid payments to hospitals.  Multiple accounts from nurses of NY doctors actually killing Covid patients.

We have to stop with the doomsday predictions.  They've all been wrong and have led to disastrous decisions.  The fear of shortage of beds led to NY and NJ to force nursing homes to take Covid patients despite the fact that the Comfort and Javitz Center were barely used.  Coumo's gross exaggeration of the need for ventilators made the ventilator the preferred treatment protocol instead of therapeutics according to some nurses.  (Once your on a ventilator the odds of survival drop dramatically).

NY and NJ deaths per capita are nearly 10 times greater that the average of the rest of the nation, yet they didn't run out of beds, icu beds or ventilators.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Limit gatherings and wear a mask seems easy enough to do.  Why fight it?   The mask is the least annoying of all the things happening right now.


Why fight it?

Well for starters: Because its...my freedoms, my decisions, my parenting, my kids mental and physical health.  Not to mention  "government officials and experts" absurd randomness, hypocrisy and petty politics directly impacting said above reasons.

Why subjugate to it?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Are you serious?  NY was a complete clusterf%#@.  Forcing nursing homes to take COVID patients.  Significantly reduced subway service so that essential workers were forced to travel on insanely crowded subway cars.  Deciding not to clean subway cars until the beginning of May.  25% loss in hospital beds and the worst hospitals in the country due to budget shortfalls that led to the significant reduction in Medicaid payments to hospitals.  Multiple accounts from nurses of NY doctors actually killing Covid patients.
> 
> We have to stop with the doomsday predictions.  They've all been wrong and have led to disastrous decisions.  The fear of shortage of beds led to NY and NJ to force nursing homes to take Covid patients despite the fact that the Comfort and Javitz Center were barely used.  Coumo's gross exaggeration of the need for ventilators made the ventilator the preferred treatment protocol instead of therapeutics according to some nurses.  (Once your on a ventilator the odds of survival drop dramatically).
> 
> NY and NJ deaths per capita are nearly 10 times greater that the average of the rest of the nation, yet they didn't run out of beds, icu beds or ventilators.


Simple facts....we had 178 in ICU Beds (total confirmed and not confirmed but suspected COVID only and not including other people in ICU beds).  We have a total of 676 licensed ICU beds for all ICU patients.  We increased 13% over last week as of yesterday.  I presented all of the facts above.  What are we going to change or what is going to change that will prevent us from continuing to increase ICU beds at the same rate?  Is it that all of the freedom from mask fighters are all of a sudden going to start wearing masks?  I can't think of one thing that is changing that will stop the increase in ICU beds.  Maybe the mandate for face masks will have a trickle down impact.  I hope that is the case but I doubt it because I still see the smug ding dongs in the grocery store.


----------



## espola (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Now do NY and NJ vs....say, FL and CA.


Here is a different website that allows comparing states. It is interesting to look by sorting on new cases and new reported deaths. Florida and Georgia (states with early opening and passive enforcement) are working their way to the top.









						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Why fight it?
> 
> Well for starters: Because its...my freedoms, my decisions, my parenting, my kids mental and physical health.  Not to mention  "government officials and experts" absurd randomness, hypocrisy and petty politics directly impacting said above reasons.
> 
> Why subjugate to it?


Freedom over Health? You're joking right? We are seeing what happens with your freedom, decisions making, parenting, kids mental and physical health.  Notice what's happening in Florida, Texas and Arizona because of the personal freedom rights! We also have the right to be smart about this.  Let's be smart!


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Simple facts....we had 178 in ICU Beds (total confirmed and not confirmed COVID only and not including other people in ICU beds).  We have a total of 676 licensed ICU beds for all ICU patients.  We increased 13% over last week as of yesterday.  I presented all of the facts above.  What are we going to change or what is going to change that will prevent us from continuing to increase ICU beds at the same rate?  Is it that all of the freedom from mask fighters are all of a sudden going to start wearing masks?  I can't think of one thing that is changing that will stop the increase in ICU beds.  Maybe the mandate for face masks will have a trickle down impact.  I hope that is the case but I doubt it because I still see the smug ding dongs in the grocery store.


You do understand were discussing outdoor youth sports for our kids, right?


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> You do understand were discussing outdoor youth sports for our kids, right?


You really want to start playing soccer don't you? You really want to bring teams from AZ and LA County to Surf Cup where the Covid #'s are going up? Oh yeah you said because its your Freedom!


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Freedom over Health? You're joking right? We are seeing what happens with your freedom, decisions making, parenting, kids mental and physical health.  Notice what's happening in Florida, Texas and Arizona because of the personal freedom rights! We also have the right to be smart about this.  Let's be smart!


I live in SD country with 296 deaths in a population of 3.3 mil, of which over 80% are elderly with comorbidities...but the beauty of Freedom is you're free to stay home, cover yourself and parent however you want...and I'm free to make my choices...it's served us well for centuries.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> So who should be fined...the one not wearing the mask or the one who comes with six feet of them?
> 
> I understand your point...do you understand mine?


You do understand were discussing outdoor youth sports for our kids, right?
[/QUOTE]
If you read one of my previous posts, I see outdoor sports with the protocols put in place by all of the soccer gods as very low risk based on what medical experts have learned about COVID to date.  My argument is with people that are discussing death rates etc. when they are not considering the reality of the situation that we are in here in OC that will cause the Governor or Orange County to start shut downs because of hospital capacity issues.

Yes, most people don't die but many still need to be hospitalized to battle the illness.  That is the issue.  Capacity to deal with the fight.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> You really want to start playing soccer don't you? You really want to bring teams from AZ and LA County to Surf Cup where the Covid #'s are going up? Oh yeah you said because its your Freedom!


Don't attend, stay at home, keep your kids isolated...These are decisions for individual citizens to make...again, that's how Freedom works.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> You really want to start playing soccer don't you? You really want to bring teams from AZ and LA County to Surf Cup where the Covid #'s are going up? Oh yeah you said because its your Freedom!


If I'm a young dad with a young children where the flu is a greater risk, what's the problem?  I dont plan on hanging out with 65+ who are in poor shape.  If i go to the market, I wear a mask.  Whats the big deal playing soccer outside? let the poor in health be extra careful.  The rest of us will be careful around them.  Please tell me, whats the demographic of the people in ICU? The details matter.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> You really want to start playing soccer don't you? You really want to bring teams from AZ and LA County to Surf Cup where the Covid #'s are going up? Oh yeah you said because its your Freedom!


Unfortunately it is true.  People have freedom to put their heads in the sand and ignore all recent studies from reputable medical experts at the expense of the people that could catch the illness from them.  They have the freedom to review what the stats are showing us and say....we won't run out of hospital beds.  People ultimately have the choice to choose ignorance over facts.  That is why Orange County's numbers are getting worse and we have one of the worst slopes in the State.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> You do understand were discussing outdoor youth sports for our kids, right?


If you read one of my previous posts, I see outdoor sports with the protocols put in place by all of the soccer gods as very low risk based on what medical experts have learned about COVID to date.  My argument is with people that are discussing death rates etc. when they are not considering the reality of the situation that we are in here in OC that will cause the Governor or Orange County to start shut downs because of hospital capacity issues.

Yes, most people don't die but many still need to be hospitalized to battle the illness.  That is the issue.  Capacity to deal with the fight.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, "Government Officials and so-called experts" were silent or cheered on massive protests for weeks, then tell me outdoor youth sports practices and games are the danger... In my opinion, they've discredited themselves and lack standing.

I see the greater danger and risk as socially isolating kids for months on end.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> If I'm a young dad with a young children where the flu is a greater risk, what's the problem?  I dont plan on hanging out with 65+ who are in poor shape.  If i go to the market, I wear a mask.  Whats the big deal playing soccer outside? let the poor in health be extra careful.  The rest of us will be careful around them.  Please tell me, whats the demographic of the people in ICU? The details matter.


The flu greater risk?  That is what they were saying in February.  There were 34,200 deaths from the flu in the 2019/20 flu season.









						The coronavirus death toll in the U.S. has officially surpassed that of WWI
					

The 116,567 Americans killed by COVID-19 as of Tuesday is higher than the 116,516 troops killed during World War I.




					fortune.com


----------



## gotothebushes (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> If I'm a young dad with a young children where the flu is a greater risk, what's the problem?  I dont plan on hanging out with 65+ who are in poor shape.  If i go to the market, I wear a mask.  Whats the big deal playing soccer outside? let the poor in health be extra careful.  The rest of us will be careful around them.  Please tell me, whats the demographic of the people in ICU? The details matter.


Say that to the La Roca club. They had club training and the next day the 2 kids tested for Covid. Whole club should down for 2 weeks.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Unfortunately it is true.  People have freedom to put their heads in the sand and ignore all recent studies from reputable medical experts at the expense of the people that could catch the illness from them.  They have the freedom to review what the stats are showing us and say....we won't run out of hospital beds.  People ultimately have the choice to choose ignorance over facts.  That is why Orange County's numbers are getting worse and we have one of the worst slopes in the State.


What is the demographic of the people in ICU beds?  If its people without underlying conditions under 40 like myself and my children I might start to listen to the fear mongering.  if the vast majority are older with underlying conditions then we are in the realm of the sky is falling mentality.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> The flu greater risk?  That is what they were saying in February.  There were 34,200 deaths from the flu in the 2019/20 flu season.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The seasonal flu kills hundreds of healthy children under 17 every year.  There are 0 deaths under 17 from covid in california. So yes, the stats on COVID and Flu say that the flu is more dangerous to kids than COVID.  How many people have been in ICU under 40 years old for COVID without underlying conditions?


----------



## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

Wow watching the governor on the conference and he's specifically mentioned cousins who get together and might pick up a "soccer" ball could spread covid if they don't maintain social distancing.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Unfortunately it is true.  People have freedom to put their heads in the sand and ignore all recent studies from reputable medical experts at the expense of the people that could catch the illness from them.  They have the freedom to review what the stats are showing us and say....we won't run out of hospital beds.  People ultimately have the choice to choose ignorance over facts.  That is why Orange County's numbers are getting worse and we have one of the worst slopes in the State.





Keepermom2 said:


> The flu greater risk?  That is what they were saying in February.  There were 34,200 deaths from the flu in the 2019/20 flu season.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Facts matter...now do the age and comorbidity breakdowns...


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Limit gatherings and wear a mask seems easy enough to do.  Why fight it?   The mask is the least annoying of all the things happening right now.


Dad, if* EVERYONE* in our country followed the same rules and laws we would all be doing much better.  Some get away with things and some don;t. Wear a mask and stay 6ft away is not that much to ask for with those you have no idea about.  I can live that way, no problem.  I like it actually, except the mask part because they fog up my sun glasses and reading glasses, but I have no issue with doing both.  The kids taking their temp before soccer practice and hanging with other kids is a non issue as much as it is non issue to walk around Fashion Island or the Grove.  It's more dangerous for my dd to walk around those places and have all the nice boys and men asking for her name and all that other stuff girls get hit with at 16.  I feel saver as a dad that she's practicing and working towards some goals, but that's just me speaking out loud as a dad on the forum.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Say that to the La Roca club. They had club training and the next day the 2 kids tested for Covid. Whole club should down for 2 weeks.


Details matter, are they asymptomatic? Did they die?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> Wow watching the governor on the conference and he's specifically mentioned cousins who get together and might pick up a "soccer" ball could spread covid if they don't maintain social distancing.


I don't watch...do you recall what he, or his "experts", said about covid spread during weeks of massive protests?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> If you read one of my previous posts, I see outdoor sports with the protocols put in place by all of the soccer gods as very low risk based on what medical experts have learned about COVID to date.  My argument is with people that are discussing death rates etc. when they are not considering the reality of the situation that we are in here in OC that will cause the Governor or Orange County to start shut downs because of hospital capacity issues.
> 
> Yes, most people don't die but many still need to be hospitalized to battle the illness.  That is the issue.  Capacity to deal with the fight.


Sorry, "Government Officials and so-called experts" were silent or cheered on massive protests for weeks, then tell me outdoor youth sports practices and games are the danger... In my opinion, they've discredited themselves and lack standing.

I see the greater danger and risk as socially isolating kids for months on end.
[/QUOTE]
The kids playing outdoor sports at least with social distancing should have been the first release not the last because the risk of spread outdoors is less especially with social distancing.  Of course they didn't know that until about a month ago.  I am hoping with that insight they won't start shutting down youth sports first when they start clammoring to deal with the hospital capacity issue.


----------



## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I don't watch...do you recall what he, or his "experts", said about covid spread during weeks of massive protests?


Nothing specifically said about protests and cause and effect that I've noticed more about numbers,  hospital capacity, face masks, and the like but I'm just listening while doing other things same time.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Details matter, are they asymptomatic? Did they die?


Yes, details do matter...they are much more likely to die from flu picked up at training...I wonder if he thinks clubs should shut down during flu season.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Yes, details do matter...they are much more likely to die from flu picked up at training...I wonder if he thinks clubs should shut down during flu season.


no, probably not.  The news didnt tell him to.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Sorry, "Government Officials and so-called experts" were silent or cheered on massive protests for weeks, then tell me outdoor youth sports practices and games are the danger... In my opinion, they've discredited themselves and lack standing.
> 
> I see the greater danger and risk as socially isolating kids for months on end.


The kids playing outdoor sports at least with social distancing should have been the first release not the last because the risk of spread outdoors is less especially with social distancing.  Of course they didn't know that until about a month ago.  I am hoping with that insight they won't start shutting down youth sports first when they start clammoring to deal with the hospital capacity issue.
[/QUOTE]
You do realize there have been significant hospital layoffs due to low capacity, right?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Details matter, are they asymptomatic? Did they die?


It isn't about the kids dying...it is about the fact that they are or will become carriers that are asymptomatic.  The capacity in hospitals will be what causes us to move to various levels of shut down.  So even if you don't care about the 17% of the population that are greater than 65 years old or the 4% of the population that are immune compromised, there will still be an impact on society from a young asymptomatic person that is infected with COVID-19.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I don't watch...do you recall what he, or his "experts", said about covid spread during weeks of massive protests?


The BLM protests are a completely unnecessary risk, as are the anti-social distancing protests and the Trump rally at Tulsa.  Gathering 1000 people together spreads disease, no matter what is on the sign you carry.

The CDC and NIH experts were politically constrained in what they could say.   So they made up something about police brutality being a public health concern.   

But all the protests and rallies definitely sent us backwards.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> The kids playing outdoor sports at least with social distancing should have been the first release not the last because the risk of spread outdoors is less especially with social distancing.  Of course they didn't know that until about a month ago.  I am hoping with that insight they won't start shutting down youth sports first when they start clammoring to deal with the hospital capacity issue.


You do realize there have been significant hospital layoffs due to low capacity, right?
[/QUOTE]
That was over a month ago.  Look at the numbers.


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## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> no, probably not.  The news didnt tell him to.


Did mention something about accountability at the local level regarding the budgets, if they don't follow guidance money may not flow to some that don't follow.  Don't think it will come to you that but if it does there will be financial consequences was the just


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> Nothing specifically said about protests and cause and effect that I've noticed more about numbers,  hospital capacity, face masks, and the like but I'm just listening while doing other things same time.


But, specifically cousins playing soccer is his concern.

I said it in the original post and I'll say it again...We're Being Played!


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## gotothebushes (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Yes, details do matter...they are much more likely to die from flu picked up at training...I wonder if he thinks clubs should shut down during flu season.


These girl had a slight temperature but parents thought it was just a cold and used there freedom to bring there child to training.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> Did mention something about accountability at the local level regarding the budgets, if they don't follow guidance money may not flow to some that don't follow.  Don't think it will come to you that but if it does there will be financial consequences was the just


Threatening us with our own tax dollars...Do you get it yet?


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## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Threatening us with our own tax dollars...Do you get it yet?


I get it.  They take our money and use it to force us to do things.

But I want them to.  I don’t want my dad to die just because some idiot was too proud to wear a mask.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> These girl had a slight temperature but parents thought it was just a cold and used there freedom to bring there child to training.


Yes they did...and you can use yours to stay home and avoid all the risks of life...again, the beauty of Freedom.


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## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> But, specifically cousins playing soccer is his concern.
> 
> I said it in the original post and I'll say it again...We're Being Played!


That one got my attention for sure, all of sudden to mention that was a surprise and makes be wonder some more.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I get it.  They take our money and use it to force us to do things.
> 
> But I want them to.  I don’t want my dad to die just because some idiot was too proud to wear a mask.


Then isolate your Dad and your family if you choose...I choose not to put family lives in the hands of "idiot" government officials who were silent or encouraged millions of "idiots" too proud to wear a mask in the streets for weeks on end.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you had nothing to say about your Dad during the protest discussions you participated in, right?


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> That one got my attention for sure, all of sudden to mention that was a surprise and makes be wonder some more.


Yep...It becomes pretty clear when one uses logic and common sense rather than simply blind emotion.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> It isn't about the kids dying...it is about the fact that they are or will become carriers that are asymptomatic.  The capacity in hospitals will be what causes us to move to various levels of shut down.  So even if you don't care about the 17% of the population that are greater than 65 years old or the 4% of the population that are immune compromised, there will still be an impact on society from a young asymptomatic person that is infected with COVID-19.


Right, so if we keep our asymptomatic kids away from the immune compromised and the elderly with underlying conditions, whats the big deal? like i said. I dont plan on hanging out with people over 65+ in poor health.  I'll wear the mask in public places indoors.  Those at risk should do their best to stay away from the rest of us as well and wear masks.  The more people that are healthy and have very low risk of developing symptoms should be free to be around each other, go to school, work, play sports.  At this point that is the best way of developing an immunity leading to herd immunity. I dont plan on coughing in anyones face after a watching my kids play soccer if that's what you are afraid of.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I get it.  They take our money and use it to force us to do things.
> 
> But I want them to.  I don’t want my dad to die just because some idiot was too proud to wear a mask.


quarantine him. If he gets sick, you were probably idiot that didnt wear the mask.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Right, so if we keep our asymptomatic kids away from the immune compromised and the elderly with underlying conditions, whats the big deal? like i said. I dont plan on hanging out with people over 65+ in poor health.  I'll wear the mask in public places indoors.  Those at risk should do their best to stay away from the rest of us as well and wear masks.  The more people that are healthy and have very low risk of developing symptoms should be free to be around each other, go to school, work, play sports.  At this point that is the best way of developing an immunity leading to herd immunity. I dont plan on coughing in anyones face after a watching my kids play soccer if that's what you are afraid of.


Yep...Pretty much what He(?) said.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> These girl had a slight temperature but parents thought it was just a cold and used there freedom to bring there child to training.


I'm having trouble finding the source to this information, I would love to read the details. Do you have a link?


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## watfly (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Simple facts....we had 178 in ICU Beds (total confirmed and not confirmed but suspected COVID only and not including other people in ICU beds).  We have a total of 676 licensed ICU beds for all ICU patients.  We increased 13% over last week as of yesterday.  I presented all of the facts above.  What are we going to change or what is going to change that will prevent us from continuing to increase ICU beds at the same rate?  Is it that all of the freedom from mask fighters are all of a sudden going to start wearing masks?  I can't think of one thing that is changing that will stop the increase in ICU beds.  Maybe the mandate for face masks will have a trickle down impact.  I hope that is the case but I doubt it because I still see the smug ding dongs in the grocery store.


Predicting that OC will run out of ICU beds is a speculative projection and isn't a fact.  It is no better those claims that Georgia's reopening is an "Experiment in Human Sacrifice" or that Wisconsin's in person election would be a "Public Health Disaster".   These claims couldn't have been farther from the truth of what actually happened.

The problem that many people have is they're looking at the health issues with blinders that only consider Covid.   This has led to a gross overreaction to the virus to the detriment of other non-covid health issues.  Health professionals at the highest levels believe that the health impacts of the lockdown (like non-covid treatment delays and stress) and fear of the virus will be much greater than the actual covid virus itself. (checkout the graph I've posted a few times).

Georgia was smart.  They started reopening early with restrictions and its citizens took it seriously.  However, other states that have waited and arbitrarily applied reopenings to only certain activities, in many cases politically driven, have lost complete credibility.   As a result, citizens of these states are less likely to take things seriously when they know the decisions are not actually health or risk based.  It's akin to crying wolf.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Right, so if we keep our asymptomatic kids away from the immune compromised and the elderly with underlying conditions, whats the big deal? like i said. I dont plan on hanging out with people over 65+ in poor health.  I'll wear the mask in public places indoors.  Those at risk should do their best to stay away from the rest of us as well and wear masks.  The more people that are healthy and have very low risk of developing symptoms should be free to be around each other, go to school, work, play sports.  At this point that is the best way of developing an immunity leading to herd immunity. I dont plan on coughing in anyones face after a watching my kids play soccer if that's what you are afraid of.


Herd immunity....How well did that theory work out for Sweden?  

"Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions."

I already stated over and over again....I am not worried about my kid playing soccer outside.  I am worried about the herd ignorance that has been achieved from people quoting information from February and March that will result in us having to go into various levels of shut down because of hospital capacity.  I presented the numbers from yesterday to show there are some concerns because the County and/or the State will have no other option but to make shut down choices because of hospital capacity.  This is from today.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Predicting that OC will run out of ICU beds is a speculative projection and isn't a fact.  It is no better those claims that Georgia's reopening is an "Experiment in Human Sacrifice" or that Wisconsin's in person election would be a "Public Health Disaster".   These claims couldn't have been farther from the truth of what actually happened.
> 
> The problem that many people have is they're looking at the health issues with blinders that only consider Covid.   This has led to a gross overreaction to the virus to the detriment of other non-covid health issues.  Health professionals at the highest levels believe that the health impacts of the lockdown (like non-covid treatment delays and stress) and fear of the virus will be much greater than the actual covid virus itself. (checkout the graph I've posted a few times).
> 
> Georgia was smart.  They started reopening early with restrictions and its citizens took it seriously.  However, other states that have waited and arbitrarily applied reopenings to only certain activities, in many cases politically driven, have lost complete credibility.   As a result, citizens of these states are less likely to take things seriously when they know the decisions are not actually health or risk based.  It's akin to crying wolf.


I simply took last weeks increase in ICU hospital bed rate.  The only speculation is that we continue at the same rate as last week.  We have never decreased from week to week since this began so why all of a sudden would we decrease?


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## watfly (Jun 24, 2020)

jpeter said:


> Did mention something about accountability at the local level regarding the budgets, if they don't follow guidance money may not flow to some that don't follow.  Don't think it will come to you that but if it does there will be financial consequences was the just


Newsom's statements regarding this is more proof that its political, like his previous actions against OC which has one of the lowest death rates in the country for a large county.  So even if you have a low rate, the fact that you disobeyed the Nanny gets you punished.  So he rejects the Federal Government telling him what to do, but he's more than happy to lord over the counties.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I simply took last weeks increase in ICU hospital bed rate.  The only speculation is that we continue at the same rate as last week.  We have never decreased from week to week since this began so why all of a sudden would we decrease?


Why does flu infections decrease after March/April? 

There is no vaccine for this virus yet. So yes, when more healthy people get infected with the likelyhood of mild conditions or being asymptomatic, it helps us as a whole. I think I read somewhere probably based on the antibody tests that 45% or so of infected people were asymptomatic. Lets keep the vulnerable quarantined. Let the healthy build up the immunity for the rest. When the vaccine comes, great. But in the mean time, let those that are asymptomatic live life. Stay locked up if you are vulnerable. Much more logical dont you agree?


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I simply took last weeks increase in ICU hospital bed rate.  The only speculation is that we continue at the same rate as last week.  We have never decreased from week to week since this began so why all of a sudden would we decrease?


If you are concerned about ICU beds, Talk to the demographic that uses the ICU beds.  I promise you, it isnt the under 40 and healthy crowd.  Its "Time to Play"


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> If you are concerned about ICU beds, Talk to the demographic that uses the ICU beds.  I promise you, it isnt the under 40 and healthy crowd.  Its "Time to Play"


IT IS ABOUT CAPACITY THAT WILL CAUSE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Why does flu infections decrease after March/April?
> 
> There is no vaccine for this virus yet. So yes, when more healthy people get infected with the likelyhood of mild conditions or being asymptomatic, it helps us as a whole. I think I read somewhere probably based on the antibody tests that 45% or so of infected people were asymptomatic. Lets keep the vulnerable quarantined. Let the healthy build up the immunity for the rest. When the vaccine comes, great. But in the mean time, let those that are asymptomatic live life. Stay locked up if you are vulnerable. Much more logical dont you agree?
> [/QUOTE)
> ...


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> IT IS ABOUT CAPACITY THAT WILL CAUSE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!


I UNDERSTAND THAT!!!! Who are the people filling these ICU beds that have COVID? If its elderly people in nursing homes, elderly people with underlying conditions, then the mitigations should be quarantining them and wearing masks and social distancing when they have visitors.  NOTHING TO DO WITH KIDS PLAYING SOCCER. THEY ARE NOT THE ONES IN ICU BEDS!!!! Writing in CAPs is fun huh?


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## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Then isolate your Dad and your family if you choose...I choose not to put family lives in the hands of "idiot" government officials who were silent or encouraged millions of "idiots" too proud to wear a mask in the streets for weeks on end.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you had nothing to say about your Dad during the protest discussions you participated in, right?


I have too much to say already.  Don't curse me for the one time I had enough sense to hold my tongue.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Herd immunity....How well did that theory work out for Sweden?











						Coronavirus: Norway wonders if it should have been more like Sweden
					

Cost of lockdown sees prime minister raise questions about strategy




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




And from another article:
"Public health officials in Norway and Denmark have come to agree with Sweden’s open-door approach to schools, saying it may not have been necessary to close them for children under age 14 because of limited evidence that they contribute to the spread of the coronavirus. "


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> It isn't about the kids dying...it is about the fact that they are or will become carriers that are asymptomatic.  The capacity in hospitals will be what causes us to move to various levels of shut down.  So even if you don't care about the 17% of the population that are greater than 65 years old or the 4% of the population that are immune compromised, there will still be an impact on society from a young asymptomatic person that is infected with COVID-19.


You do understand that they (WHO) is still not convinced that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus.  Their last statement went from “very rare” to “undetermined” because of the political backlash.


Can you give us a % of the population that are suffering from depression, anxiety and other mental conditions due to the extended shut down?  What about them?  Do they not matter?

what are families going to do this fall if kids need to learn from home while parents have to back to work in order to pay the bills? 

Yes, I have had family members and friends catch the virus. So my viewpoint is not one of someone who hasn’t seen the impact that this virus has on people. The most severely affected was on a ventilator and is doing just fine today.  All others never needed more than home, self care.

Anyone ever wonder why we don’t hear more about ways and benefits to build up your immune system and how immunologists have proven the effects of Vitamin D on the impact of the

Do you know why there are still so many hospitals and care centers that don’t have enough PPE for their staff?  A little insight, they are broke, no $!  Nobody wants to be near a hospital and elective surgeries (the money makers) have been avoided by patients at all costs. 

One stat we are likely never going to see is the number of Covid deaths attributed to “medical malpractice”!  People improperly ventilated, incorrect dosages of treatments, complete misdiagnosis, etc. you can try to deny it, but the facts are out there.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

In the end we need to start playing soccer and doing other activities. 

School for instance. In AZ one of the school districts is offering classes in person 1 day a week this coming year and the rest online. This for the group of people least affected? How do you think schedule works with getting an actual education. 


Since most people have very little risk...and we don't know if there is going to be a vaccine or how long one will take. What exactly are we going to do? 

Shut down or severely limit biz/schools/sports indefinitely?

Because essentially that is what a lot of people are saying. 

If someone is in a high risk group and doesn't want to mingle don't. If you live with a high risk individual...make your own call as to what you want to do. 


We cannot be shutting down teams, biz, schools(or certain classes) every time someone tests positive. We do that and we will be stuck in limbo essentially.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I have too much to say already.  Don't curse me for the one time I had enough sense to hold my tongue.


Yeah, whatever...apparently we have a different definition of "sense".


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> You do understand that they (WHO) is still not convinced that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus.  Their last statement went from “very rare” to “undetermined” because of the political backlash.
> 
> 
> Can you give us a % of the population that are suffering from depression, anxiety and other mental conditions due to the extended shut down?  What about them?  Do they not matter?
> ...


Spot on, well done.


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## Lionel Hutz (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I don't know where your chart came from.  This is all of California.  Orange County as I have already shown is worse than the overall State.
> View attachment 7884


You are showing the hospitialization of confirmed cases. My guess is he chose to show the hospitalization of "suspected" cases because it fit his narrative better.


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## gkmom (Jun 24, 2020)

To those who are saying that cases are up, but hospitalizations, ICU capacity and deaths are flat, don't forget there is a two to three week lag between cases and hospitalizations. Keep your eye on the numbers over the next few weeks. 

To those who are arguing that the government shouldn't tell them what to do, they have their freedom to choose, unfortunately some people aren't educated or intelligent enough to make wise choices. That's why the government needs to step in


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> To those who are saying that cases are up, but hospitalizations, ICU capacity and deaths are flat, don't forget there is a two to three week lag between cases and hospitalizations. Keep your eye on the numbers over the next few weeks.
> 
> To those who are arguing that the government shouldn't tell them what to do, they have their freedom to choose, unfortunately some people aren't educated or intelligent enough to make wise choices. That's why the government needs to step in


ok, but if the concern is about the capacity of ICU beds, the targeted approach should be the group that uses them.  Mitigate the risks of the demographic filling those beds.  locking down events that have nothing to do with that demographic is counter productive and unnecessary.  I'm not just talking soccer games, but schools and work places.  If you are part of the ICU demographic, stay home, wear a mask and have everyone around you wear a mask.  That should prevent increased numbers without being detrimental to the rest of society. Stay away from soccer fields. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.


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## gkmom (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> ok, but if the concern is about the capacity of ICU beds, the targeted approach should be the group that uses them.  Mitigate the risks of the demographic filling those beds.  locking down events that have nothing to do with that demographic is counter productive and unnecessary.  I'm not just talking soccer games, but schools and work places.  If you are part of the ICU demographic, stay home, wear a mask and have everyone around you wear a mask.  That should prevent increased numbers without being detrimental to the rest of society. Stay away from soccer fields. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.


Fair point


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## Grace T. (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> To those who are arguing that the government shouldn't tell them what to do, they have their freedom to choose, unfortunately some people aren't educated or intelligent enough to make wise choices. That's why the government needs to step in


The problem with this line of thinking is that if that's true, then not everyone is qualified to vote for our leaders...it undermines the very notion of democracy.  If people aren't educated enough or intelligent enough, they shouldn't be voting for who holds the key to the nuclear button.

Yes, we can argue masks and vaccines are necessary (and if anyone doesn't think after all this the government isn't going to make the coronavaccine mandatory, you are kidding yourself) because those choices impose a risk of death on everyone else.  But if true, that argument has to be fairly applied and rationally based if you are going to overrule individual choice.  There is nothing rationally based about the idea of preventing kids from going to school or soccer....it's been shown conclusively kids are far less vulnerable to this than flu and are also put in danger by car ride, and they suspect the risk of exposure to adults isn't as severe adult-adult or adult-child.  It's also not fairly applied because other more hazardous activities are being allowed to go forward like mass protests, political rallies, gyms or even movie theatres with airconditioning and people using the eating exception to avoid wearing masks.  Given that, the only fair thing to do is to defer to individual parent choice.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> *It isn't about the kids dying...it is about the fact that they are or will become carriers that are asymptomatic. * The capacity in hospitals will be what causes us to move to various levels of shut down.  So even if you don't care about the 17% of the population that are greater than 65 years old or the 4% of the population that are immune compromised, there will still be an impact on society from a young asymptomatic person that is infected with COVID-19.


Q.  I'm serious confused dad here and my head is about to spin off.  My question is this.  What is more dangerous, going to the beach all day being around thousands or being at a soccer field for one hour with 11 players sharing 50% of the field or 25% of the field?  With your mind set Keeper mom, we should all go home and come out after Feb next year.  If kids can;t play some soccer by themselves and the coach and a few refs, then God help us and we should all go inside our dwellings and wait this soccer out.  It's too dangerous.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> ok, but if the concern is about the capacity of ICU beds, the targeted approach should be the group that uses them.  Mitigate the risks of the demographic filling those beds.  locking down events that have nothing to do with that demographic is counter productive and unnecessary.  I'm not just talking soccer games, but schools and work places.  If you are part of the ICU demographic, stay home, wear a mask and have everyone around you wear a mask.  That should prevent increased numbers without being detrimental to the rest of society. Stay away from soccer fields. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.


Bingo. 

Target the groups that are at risk. The shotgun approach of shutting or hampering everyone is not the appropriate approach.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

0% mortality rate for kids under 17 in California.  .17% mortality rate for people under 50 in California.  That .17% most likely consist of people that are immune compromised or have underlying conditions.  The Flu (Even with a vaccine) is worse for people in this demographic.  Its Time to Play.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Right, so if we keep our asymptomatic kids away from the immune compromised and the elderly with underlying conditions, whats the big deal? like i said. I dont plan on hanging out with people over 65+ in poor health.  I'll wear the mask in public places indoors.  Those at risk should do their best to stay away from the rest of us as well and wear masks.  The more people that are healthy and have very low risk of developing symptoms should be free to be around each other, go to school, work, play sports.  At this point that is the best way of developing an immunity leading to herd immunity. I dont plan on coughing in anyones face after a watching my kids play soccer if that's what you are afraid of.


My wife's parents are well into their 70s.  It pains us deeply not to see them.  We have not been to their house since New Years.  Grandpa has early dementia.  Mom was a nurse and no one wants to go see the Dr or the ER right now and she wont take him either.  Too dangerous for the elderly to go the hospital.  How sad is that.  Scary stuff folks.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

T


Ellejustus said:


> Q.  I'm serious confused dad here and my head is about to spin off.  My question is this.  What is more dangerous, going to the beach all day being around thousands or being at a soccer field for one hour with 11 players sharing 50% of the field or 25% of the field?  With your mind set Keeper mom, we should all go home and come out after Feb next year.  If kids can;t play some soccer by themselves and the coach and a few refs, then God help us and we should all go inside our dwellings and wait this soccer out.  It's too dangerous.


During this week’s covid update on TV, I heard them say that 1 out of every 400 has covid or asymptotic.     Basically they said if you go out to stores, parks, restaurants on any given day, you will probably be around a person that could pass it on to you.      Basically we shouldn’t be afraid of getting covid.  We should be afraid if you or your family member is in the at risk group.


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## gkmom (Jun 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with this line of thinking is that if that's true, then not everyone is qualified to vote for our leaders...it undermines the very notion of democracy.  If people aren't educated enough or intelligent enough, they shouldn't be voting for who holds the key to the nuclear button.
> 
> Yes, we can argue masks and vaccines are necessary (and if anyone doesn't think after all this the government isn't going to make the coronavaccine mandatory, you are kidding yourself) because those choices impose a risk of death on everyone else.  But if true, that argument has to be fairly applied and rationally based if you are going to overrule individual choice.  There is nothing rationally based about the idea of preventing kids from going to school or soccer....it's been shown conclusively kids are far less vulnerable to this than flu and are also put in danger by car ride, and they suspect the risk of exposure to adults isn't as severe adult-adult or adult-child.  It's also not fairly applied because other more hazardous activities are being allowed to go forward like mass protests, political rallies, gyms or even movie theatres with airconditioning and people using the eating exception to avoid wearing masks.  Given that, the only fair thing to do is to defer to individual parent choice.


I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why some things are open, 


Grace T. said:


> The problem with this line of thinking is that if that's true, then not everyone is qualified to vote for our leaders...it undermines the very notion of democracy.  If people aren't educated enough or intelligent enough, they shouldn't be voting for who holds the key to the nuclear button.
> 
> Yes, we can argue masks and vaccines are necessary (and if anyone doesn't think after all this the government isn't going to make the coronavaccine mandatory, you are kidding yourself) because those choices impose a risk of death on everyone else.  But if true, that argument has to be fairly applied and rationally based if you are going to overrule individual choice.  There is nothing rationally based about the idea of preventing kids from going to school or soccer....it's been shown conclusively kids are far less vulnerable to this than flu and are also put in danger by car ride, and they suspect the risk of exposure to adults isn't as severe adult-adult or adult-child.  It's also not fairly applied because other more hazardous activities are being allowed to go forward like mass protests, political rallies, gyms or even movie theatres with airconditioning and people using the eating exception to avoid wearing masks.  Given that, the only fair thing to do is to defer to individual parent choice.


I agree that it doesn't make sense why some things are open and others are not. 
I would however not compare mask, social distancing, and other mandates during a pandemic to the freedom to vote. I would align it more with seat belt laws, speed limits or vaccination requirements.There's a reason we have certain laws


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## Eagle33 (Jun 24, 2020)

Key words in the News (please note how they changing and evolving):
March - Coronavirus, Vaccine, Shut-Down 
April - Ventilators, ICU beds
May - Masks, Tests, Number of Deaths
June - Increase in New Cases


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## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

July key words will be?  I'm sure we will have the biggest October Surprise ever.......


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## whatithink (Jun 24, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> In the end we need to start playing soccer and doing other activities.
> 
> School for instance. In AZ one of the school districts is offering classes in person 1 day a week this coming year and the rest online. This for the group of people least affected? How do you think schedule works with getting an actual education.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this, but take the schools example; while the kids are, as you rightly say, low to no risk, those teaching them, supporting the teachers and ensuring the school is even open are likely not all in that same band. Kids are prolific spreaders of everything, every year - school starts one illness after another spreads. We all accept this. Most of the "blame" is parents who don't follow simple protocols like keeping a kid with a temp off for 24 hours fever free etc. But, you know, freedom to not give a f-ck about everyone else is strong in some people - we see it every year.

Maybe government realizes that there are more than enough freedom (not give a f-ck about everyone else) people out there, given that they display it all the time, to think they need to take charge and lead.

To me, we need to get the economy going, businesses open, schools open and back to some type of normal. If that means masks when in public, social distancing as much as possible, hand washing, hand sanitizer and so on, then I'm good with that. I'm not really happy about it, but I'm good with it. I don't live with or (closely) interact with any high risk people, but I'll still play - society is a team sport after all.

If the kids can play soccer too, then I'm good with that. If they can't for a few months or if playing jeopardizes the economy, business, schools etc. or could lead to another shutdown, then shut soccer down. It would suck, I'd hate it, but it ain't that important relatively speaking.


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## oh canada (Jun 24, 2020)

There are deadline dates being established that will decide the fate of youth sports in CA.  For example, CIF will notify high schools on July 20 if Fall Sports will be played.  Mark that date on your calendar.  Posting Covid opinions on every thread of this forum is not going to change anything.  Go organize the garage or wash the car.


----------



## watfly (Jun 24, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> During this week’s covid update on TV, I heard them say that 1 out of every 400 has covid or asymptotic.     Basically they said if you go out to stores, parks, restaurants on any given day, you will probably be around a person that could pass it on to you.      Basically we shouldn’t be afraid of getting covid.  We should be afraid if you or your family member is in the at risk group.


I have to believe that the vast majority of people have been exposed to Covid on some level or another, maybe not direct contact, but odds are you've touched something or been in the same space as a Covid positive person.

Ultimately in regards to resuming youth sports, the difference in opinions is based on someone's individual perception of risk (aka fear) and the level of risk they're willing to accept.  Based on the comments here, it appears that those who are most fearful, are basing their fear on what could happen, whereas those who are less fearful are basing it on what has actually happened.  When I've posted good, or positive information, I can't tell you how many posters have basically said "oh just wait, its going to get worse" like were going to run out of icu beds, doctors are going to have to make life or death decisions on who to treat etc.  The common justification was "lag time".  I heard that every time when I mentioned how well Georgia was doing with their reopening, "oh no you have wait a month" a month passes with the number of deaths plummeting, "oh no, you have to wait a few more months, be patient".  Two months later and Covid deaths in Georgia continue to plummet.  It's incredible how many people use the "lag time" argument to just kick the can of Covid fears down the road.  News flash, Covid isn't going away, but its basically only dangerous to a minority of people with very identifiable characteristics.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince those that disagree with me.  Which is the beauty of choice, just don't project your fears on my behavior or others and take my choice away.   While I wear a mask in public out of respect for others, there is simple solution if you run into someone that isn't, move 6 feet away.  No harm, no foul.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 24, 2020)

Eagle33 said:


> Key words in the News (please note how they changing and evolving):
> March - Coronavirus, Vaccine, Shut-Down
> April - Ventilators, ICU beds
> May - Masks, Tests, Number of Deaths
> June - Increase in New Cases


Our State Government is challenged...the same Gov., who couldn’t control the homeless in SF in a press conference a while ago offered up that Dr.’s should be able to prescribe shelter as a prescription for homeless without it....wtf.  This is the solution for the states homeless problem which is the largest in the country.  This clown is leading us through this?  Lord, help us.  Leadership matters, and he is failing on multiple levels now.  I did praise him for the early lock-down, but since then....good grief.

btw...great summarization on the monthly narratives. More cases are because of the greater availability of testing. Based on what you see the death counts are staying relatively flat which means the mortality rate is actually lower.  Lot more testing now than before.

The data is whack, there is not a single source of truth you can count on, the narrative changes with the wind.  

Masks...wear them, don’t wear them.  Depending on which expert you listen to they may or may not help.  Not all masks are created equal...

I have used this before...jeans and underwear can’t stop a fart, but a cloth mask is the barrier/solution of choice to stop a super deadly disease???

Kicker4life mentioned the immune system and to work on that...I agree...nothing has been said about that, silence by the media, or any other preventive care...just wear a mask, distance, stay inside, and shut down the 6th largest economy in the world.

At risk or worried, stay home, shelter, do not interact with others...healthy, no issues, do you.  I wear a mask where required, not while driving and not in my home, and stay away from those at-risk groups.  I would think most of the data and information available shows that under 50, in good health, your should be ok.  The other option is spend you life in fear of what the media presents and let that guide your decisions.

Where are all the sick protesters, rioters, looters, vandals, and anarchists?  Am I missing that in the current news cycle?  We are on to pulling down statues and Teddy Roosevelt Monuments.

Let your kid play if you feel it is appropriate, keep them home if you don’t.  Whatever the outcome you are responsible, not the government, the person not wearing the mask, the club, the coach, the manager, the gaming circuit...just you.  You decided to let your kid play or not play.  You are responsible for the outcome.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> To those who are saying that cases are up, but hospitalizations, ICU capacity and deaths are flat, don't forget there is a two to three week lag between cases and hospitalizations. Keep your eye on the numbers over the next few weeks.
> 
> To those who are arguing that the government shouldn't tell them what to do, they have their freedom to choose, unfortunately some people aren't educated or intelligent enough to make wise choices. That's why the government needs to step in


It could also be said you lack education and intelligence for believing the government is educated and intelligent enough to make wise choices...no?

I can provide numerous examples...can you?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The problem with this line of thinking is that if that's true, then not everyone is qualified to vote for our leaders...it undermines the very notion of democracy.  If people aren't educated enough or intelligent enough, they shouldn't be voting for who holds the key to the nuclear button.
> 
> Yes, we can argue masks and vaccines are necessary (and if anyone doesn't think after all this the government isn't going to make the coronavaccine mandatory, you are kidding yourself) because those choices impose a risk of death on everyone else.  But if true, that argument has to be fairly applied and rationally based if you are going to overrule individual choice.  There is nothing rationally based about the idea of preventing kids from going to school or soccer....it's been shown conclusively kids are far less vulnerable to this than flu and are also put in danger by car ride, and they suspect the risk of exposure to adults isn't as severe adult-adult or adult-child.  It's also not fairly applied because other more hazardous activities are being allowed to go forward like mass protests, political rallies, gyms or even movie theatres with airconditioning and people using the eating exception to avoid wearing masks.  Given that, the only fair thing to do is to defer to individual parent choice.


Thank you...Clear case of common sense and logic vs. emotion.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> I UNDERSTAND THAT!!!! Who are the people filling these ICU beds that have COVID? If its elderly people in nursing homes, elderly people with underlying conditions, then the mitigations should be quarantining them and wearing masks and social distancing when they have visitors.  NOTHING TO DO WITH KIDS PLAYING SOCCER. THEY ARE NOT THE ONES IN ICU BEDS!!!! Writing in CAPs is fun huh?


And how well has that been working for us?  The point is....we are heading in the wrong direction.  By the way, the percentage of people in ICU under the age of 65 is increas


Ellejustus said:


> Q.  I'm serious confused dad here and my head is about to spin off.  My question is this.  What is more dangerous, going to the beach all day being around thousands or being at a soccer field for one hour with 11 players sharing 50% of the field or 25% of the field?  With your mind set Keeper mom, we should all go home and come out after Feb next year.  If kids can;t play some soccer by themselves and the coach and a few refs, then God help us and we should all go inside our dwellings and wait this soccer out.  It's too dangerous.


No you are wrong about my mind set.  Go back and read my posts.  I have been to the beach and my daughter started secret goalkeeper training May 1.  I believe our kids should have been back on the field at least a month ago because the risk of spread is low.  All I am saying, we are headed for various shut down activities because of hospital capacity and the anti-face mask people are helping drive that bus to shut down.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why some things are open,
> 
> I agree that it doesn't make sense why some things are open and others are not.
> I would however not compare mask, social distancing, and other mandates during a pandemic to the freedom to vote. I would align it more with seat belt laws, speed limits or vaccination requirements.There's a reason we have certain laws


You understand these aren't laws, right?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why some things are open,
> 
> I agree that it doesn't make sense why some things are open and others are not.
> I would however not compare mask, social distancing, and other mandates during a pandemic to the freedom to vote. I would align it more with seat belt laws, speed limits or vaccination requirements.There's a reason we have certain laws


Additionally, you understand we vote for those who make, enact and enforce the laws, right?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> You do understand that they (WHO) is still not convinced that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus.  Their last statement went from “very rare” to “undetermined” because of the political backlash.
> 
> 
> Can you give us a % of the population that are suffering from depression, anxiety and other mental conditions due to the extended shut down?  What about them?  Do they not matter?
> ...


I am not arguing for or against anything.  I am simply stating what the numbers are showing about capacity that will leave OC and/or California no other option but to start shutting us down.  We could slow this down if people would agree to wear masks.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

whatithink said:


> I agree with a lot of this, but take the schools example; while the kids are, as you rightly say, low to no risk, those teaching them, supporting the teachers and ensuring the school is even open are likely not all in that same band. Kids are prolific spreaders of everything, every year - school starts one illness after another spreads. We all accept this. Most of the "blame" is parents who don't follow simple protocols like keeping a kid with a temp off for 24 hours fever free etc. But, you know, freedom to not give a f-ck about everyone else is strong in some people - we see it every year.
> 
> Maybe government realizes that there are more than enough freedom (not give a f-ck about everyone else) people out there, given that they display it all the time, to think they need to take charge and lead.
> 
> ...


Respect your point. Just a  question or two... Specifically who gets to decide and what do they base it on?


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I live in SD country with 296 deaths in a population of 3.3 mil, of which over 80% are elderly with comorbidities...but the beauty of Freedom is you're free to stay home, cover yourself and parent however you want...and I'm free to make my choices...it's served us well for centuries.


and we got the floating boat that was never used so there are a lot of extra ventilators


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> It isn't about the kids dying...it is about the fact that they are or will become carriers that are asymptomatic.  The capacity in hospitals will be what causes us to move to various levels of shut down.  So even if you don't care about the 17% of the population that are greater than 65 years old or the 4% of the population that are immune compromised, there will still be an impact on society from a young asymptomatic person that is infected with COVID-19.


elderly or compromised should isolate themselves from everyone and they won't have to worry about youth soccer kids contaminating them


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> And how well has that been working for us?  The point is....we are heading in the wrong direction.  By the way, the percentage of people in ICU under the age of 65 is increas
> 
> No you are wrong about my mind set.  Go back and read my posts.  I have been to the beach and my daughter started secret goalkeeper training May 1.  I believe our kids should have been back on the field at least a month ago because the risk of spread is low.  All I am saying, we are headed for various shut down activities because of hospital capacity and the anti-face mask people are helping drive that bus to shut down.


OMG not another hypocrite here.  first you obviously dont know the numbers or the percentage or you are just ignoring it all together when we are talking about the demographics of people in ICU.  If elderly people with underlying conditions and their loved ones aren't following mitigation procedures, what is the next step? Putting them in jail and locking them up to guarantee they are isolated? Well that isn't working because our governor is releasing prisoners because of COVID.  The point is there is no point in locking down everyone if the very people that are vulnerable dont mitigate their own risk.

And you are hilarious, secret goalie training and you are mad at anti mask people.  Tell me, are you wiping down the ball each time she touches it?  Is your daughter wearing a mask during training?  Do as I say not as I do huh? got it.


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Newsom's statements regarding this is more proof that its political, like his previous actions against OC which has one of the lowest death rates in the country for a large county.  So even if you have a low rate, the fact that you disobeyed the Nanny gets you punished.  So he rejects the Federal Government telling him what to do, but he's more than happy to lord over the counties.


Kim Jung Newsome has 1 BILLION dollars worth of masks he needs to resell that is why the mandatory mask order.  that clown


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## whatithink (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Respect your point. Just a  question or two... Specifically who gets to decide and what do they base it on?


We have public officials who were voted in by the electorate. Your, or my, candidate may or may not have won, but that's the democratic process. So basically elected officials decide. 

What they base it on is surely a loaded question. They should, imv, base it on the best medical (in this instance) advise at the decision point. They should adapt that decision as better information is available. Whether they do or not varies widely, not least as they are politicians who tailor decisions to their base generally.

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, they always got to go back to the electorate who get to judge via the next election.


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Respect your point. Just a  question or two... Specifically who gets to decide and what do they base it on?


my body my choice


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## whatithink (Jun 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> my body my choice


Pro choice, got it. I'm Pro Life, but I guess that's a whole other conversation.


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

whatithink said:


> Pro choice, got it. I'm Pro Life, but I guess that's a whole other conversation.


 <---the point.......------> you


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## whatithink (Jun 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> <---the point.......------> you


I thought it might be inconvenient of me to point out your poor _*choice *_of words.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> OMG not another hypocrite here.  first you obviously dont know the numbers or the percentage or you are just ignoring it all together when we are talking about the demographics of people in ICU.  If elderly people with underlying conditions and their loved ones aren't following mitigation procedures, what is the next step? Putting them in jail and locking them up to guarantee they are isolated? Well that isn't working because our governor is releasing prisoners because of COVID.  The point is there is no point in locking down everyone if the very people that are vulnerable dont mitigate their own risk.
> 
> And you are hilarious, secret goalie training and you are mad at anti mask people.  Tell me, are you wiping down the ball each time she touches it?  Is your daughter wearing a mask during training?  Do as I say not as I do huh? got it.


You are so dumb and ignorant.  There is no point arguing with stupid because stupid just stays stupid.  She has fucking gloves on idiot and she takes all appropriate precautions.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

love the ignore function.  I just ignore idiots!  So happy for that function.


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## MSK357 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> You are so dumb and ignorant.  There is no point arguing with stupid because stupid just stays stupid.  She has fucking gloves on idiot and she takes all appropriate precautions.


Hmm..I guess she never took a ball to the face.  Must be a great goalie.


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

whatithink said:


> I thought it might be inconvenient of me to point out your poor _*choice *_of words.


facepalm


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> Kim Jung Newsome has 1 BILLION dollars worth of masks he needs to resell that is why the mandatory mask order.  that clown


That he bought from BYD, a Chinese car company that is also a political donor (also made those problematic electric busses).  Funny thing is that he paid well over the going rate at the time (we submitted a bid for $1.55/mask back in March, he paid a lot more).


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> That he bought from BYD, a Chinese car company that is also a political donor (also made those problematic electric busses).  Funny thing is that he paid well over the going rate at the time (we submitted a bid for $1.55/mask back in March, he paid a lot more).





			https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/editorials/article242560726.html


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I am not arguing for or against anything.  I am simply stating what the numbers are showing about capacity that will leave OC and/or California no other option but to start shutting us down.  We could slow this down if people would agree to wear masks.


I get that we aren’t making an argument, but you point was all the asymptomatic kids that lead into increased needs for hospital beds. 

We shut down again, we are just kicking the can down. The road further so when we re-open again we will see another spike, then what, shut down again?  We have to face the music at some point.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 24, 2020)

gkmom said:


> I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why some things are open,
> 
> I agree that it doesn't make sense why some things are open and others are not.
> I would however not compare mask, social distancing, and other mandates during a pandemic to the freedom to vote. I would align it more with seat belt laws, speed limits or vaccination requirements.There's a reason we have certain laws


Yes, but they need to be fairly applied and rationally based.  Masks if required need to apply fairly (you can't like some in Oregon exempt people of color from the requirement) and be rationally based (require indoors and in crowds, not on beaches, exempt the handicapped).  Seatbelts are fairly applied and rationally based....everyone uses them, you make special precautions for kids in car seats.  Vaccines are the same.  When limiting individual freedom, the burden is on the government to show it is fairly applied and rationally based.  Here it hasn't been.

The unfortunate reality is the protests broke any possibility at any sort of limiting principle.  You can't limit it by outdoors because then youth soccer is o.k. as are large stadiums.  You can't limit it by first amendment because then Trump rallies indoors are o.k.  You could say o.k. only outdoors and only 1st amendment but that includes worship, funerals, weddings, performance art, and 4th of July celebrations.  Businesses like movie theatres will complain because hey if the wedding planner is open why can't we, and I'm sorry, if the movies are open there isn't any rational basis at all for limiting schools and youth sport.  So now it just seems like the people with influence (Surf Cup anyone) or who complain the loudest (kids don't vote, parents are well behaved and need to keep their jobs to feed the kids) are the ones that get the breaks.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/editorials/article242560726.html


As I stated, I submitted a bid for $1.55 per mask, he paid $3.30 per mask.  But I’m not a political donor.

I’m not sure if you’re arguing with me or supporting my argument.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> I get that we aren’t making an argument, but you point was all the asymptomatic kids that lead into increased needs for hospital beds.
> 
> We shut down again, we are just kicking the can down. The road further so when we re-open again we will see another spike, then what, shut down again?  We have to face the music at some point.


That wasn't my point.  My point was simple....if we keep increasing at the rate we have been increasing we have capacity issues starting in July for ICU and October for overall hospital capacity.  Something has to give to deal with capacity issues will continue if the recent rate increases continue.    I would love nothing more than for the recent increases to be an anomaly.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> As I stated, I submitted a bid for $1.55 per mask, he paid $3.30 per mask.  But I’m not a political donor.
> 
> I’m not sure if you’re arguing with me or supporting my argument.


There were some refunds that occurred.  Not really arguing.  Just pointing to some additional facts.  https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-s-1-billion-mask-deal-Company-15325828.php


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## Messi>CR7 (Jun 24, 2020)

You want soccer back to normal?  Be pragmatic.  Wear you mask, do your share of social distancing, get the positive test rate down to 4% again, then more and more things will open up.

No amount of whining or outrage on this forum will result in anything if the infection rate continues at the current pace.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> That wasn't my point.  My point was simple....if we keep increasing at the rate we have been increasing we have capacity issues starting in July for ICU and October for overall hospital capacity.  Something has to give to deal with capacity issues will continue if the recent rate increases continue.    I would love nothing more than for the recent increases to be an anomaly.


Thanks for clarifying. You are assuming that the rate of increase continues to steadily without falling.


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## Kicker4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> There were some refunds that occurred.  Not really arguing.  Just pointing to some additional facts.  https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-s-1-billion-mask-deal-Company-15325828.php


That’s kind of my point, he overpaid, hit the contract, when it finally came out BYD had to repeat some of the money. However had he not come forth with the terms of the contract the rebate would’ve never been issued.


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## Grace T. (Jun 24, 2020)

Messi>CR7 said:


> You want soccer back to normal?  Be pragmatic.  Wear you mask, do your share of social distancing, get the positive test rate down to 4% again, then more and more things will open up.
> 
> No amount of whining or outrage on this forum will result in anything if the infection rate continues at the current pace.



Well, we know that's not true because of what happened in San Diego with the phase 1 plan.  We'll see if they can pull off surf.

I agree we should wear masks in certain circumstances, and that will help.  At this point, most large businesses like the markets will force you to adhere or are soon there.  But wearing a mask and avoiding a friend's birthday party isn't going to do anything if they let restaurants, movie theatres, bars and gyms open where you can't wear a mask or it isn't very effective.  Nothing we do is going to stop the protests, and we are heading into a bigger headache with the 4th of July because honoring the flag and celebrating America is a first amendment free speech issue too.  We don't have any influence on the drivers of the outbreak such as nursing homes, hospitals, meat packing plants, jails.

It might also very well be that the curves are mathematically rigid.  The only thing the lockdowns did in areas where there was no outbreak is to push the outbreak back to now.  It could be that the virus needs to burn through certain low hanging fruit before it can go into a slow burn mode (like all the countries in Europe, which opened up faster than we did, showed).  The starkest evidence for this is SoCal/NorCal, which locked down around the same time and have similar lockdown procedures, but are having very different results.  I wrote a while ago La would be in a slow burn through the summer and I think that's what is happening.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Thanks for clarifying. You are assuming that the rate of increase continues to steadily without falling.


Yes.  I am hoping the mandate for wearing masks decreases the rate of increase but based on what I have seen, the mandate has had little effect.


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## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Well said...I have scratched my head at some of the choices the politicians have made that are not consistent with the risk.  One thing is definitely backed in RECENT studies and in fact history from 102 years ago....masks slow the spread and can prevent future shutdowns due to lack of hospital capacity.  102 years ago it was Northern California that was refusing to wear masks and Southern California did.  Northern California was hit much harder.  If I remember correctly they were hit 30% harder.  (I looked at the history article 2 months ago)  Right now Northern California is doing much better than Southern California where the freedom fighters for not wearing a mask (with same arguments as in 1918) are in full force fighting it every step of the way.  They are going to fight us back into shut down.  Philadelphia is doing great.  They are fining businesses where anyone is found not wearing a mask.  Probably the cemetery near by with 100s of thousands of people that died in 1918 probably helps them understand they need to head the warnings since they were ignored in 1918.
> 
> 
> In the new normal for my family, I am managing based on risk so that we can still live our life.   No indoor stuff.


It's so surprising how weak minded some people are, afraid to wear a face mask under the guise of "freedom". True snowflakes.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Freedom over Health? You're joking right? We are seeing what happens with your freedom, decisions making, parenting, kids mental and physical health.  Notice what's happening in Florida, Texas and Arizona because of the personal freedom rights! We also have the right to be smart about this.  Let's be smart!


Please remember everyone, kids are amazingly resilient, flexible and smart, unlike a lot of their parents.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Yes.  I am hoping the mandate for wearing masks decreases the rate of increase but based on what I have seen, the mandate has had little effect.


Even if it’s only a 20% reduction when wearing a mask, it’s good enough odds for me.  It’s simple, just wear a mask when you go out and take it off in the car and at home.    People in Orange County are making a big deal for being obligated to wear a mask.   SMH.


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## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> The kids playing outdoor sports at least with social distancing should have been the first release not the last because the risk of spread outdoors is less especially with social distancing.  Of course they didn't know that until about a month ago.  I am hoping with that insight they won't start shutting down youth sports first when they start clammoring to deal with the hospital capacity issue.


You do realize there have been significant hospital layoffs due to low capacity, right?
[/QUOTE]
Hospital layoffs are due to the fact that people have stopped going to the hospital for band aids, stomach aches, head aches and elective plastic surgery, not as many sports injuries, fewer car accidents (although in the beginning people were racing on freeways and we had an increase in fatalities) and other elective procedures.


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## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Predicting that OC will run out of ICU beds is a speculative projection and isn't a fact.  It is no better those claims that Georgia's reopening is an "Experiment in Human Sacrifice" or that Wisconsin's in person election would be a "Public Health Disaster".   These claims couldn't have been farther from the truth of what actually happened.
> 
> The problem that many people have is they're looking at the health issues with blinders that only consider Covid.   This has led to a gross overreaction to the virus to the detriment of other non-covid health issues.  Health professionals at the highest levels believe that the health impacts of the lockdown (like non-covid treatment delays and stress) and fear of the virus will be much greater than the actual covid virus itself. (checkout the graph I've posted a few times).
> 
> Georgia was smart.  They started reopening early with restrictions and its citizens took it seriously.  However, other states that have waited and arbitrarily applied reopenings to only certain activities, in many cases politically driven, have lost complete credibility.   As a result, citizens of these states are less likely to take things seriously when they know the decisions are not actually health or risk based.  It's akin to crying wolf.


Have you looked at the numbers in Georgia as of today?


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> You do realize there have been significant hospital layoffs due to low capacity, right?


Hospital layoffs are due to the fact that people have stopped going to the hospital for band aids, stomach aches, head aches and elective plastic surgery, not as many sports injuries, fewer car accidents (although in the beginning people were racing on freeways and we had an increase in fatalities) and other elective procedures.
[/QUOTE]
That was the information from over a month ago.


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## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

We will be fine.......28,567,355 test given.....2,369,039 positive test 115,531 deaths.  those are the national numbers on Politico site. 
   Ca. population 40 million

5,632 death190,222 positive 3,592,899 test
The OC *227,962 tests  11,016 positive  299 of the positive died.1/2 of the death are from care facilities. 93% of the other 150 had underlying conditions*


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> It's so surprising how weak minded some people are, afraid to wear a face mask under the guise of "freedom". True snowflakes.


Yeah they are fighting for freedom from wearing face masks when here in California their child can have surgery without their knowledge at the age of 12, and their 12 year old child can prevent them from seeing their medical records.  That 12 year old can also start taking medication without their knowledge but face masks is where these freedom fighters draw the line.


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## Giesbock (Jun 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> We will be fine.......28,567,355 test given.....2,369,039 positive test 115,531 deaths.  those are the national numbers on Politico site.
> Ca. population 40 million
> 
> 5,632 death190,222 positive3,592,899 test
> The OC *227,962 tests  11,016 positive  299 of the positive died.1/2 of the death are from care facilities. 93% of the other 150 had underlying conditions*


Do you have to yell?  If your data is solid, let it stand on merit.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> You do realize there have been significant hospital layoffs due to low capacity, right?


Hospital layoffs are due to the fact that people have stopped going to the hospital for band aids, stomach aches, head aches and elective plastic surgery, not as many sports injuries, fewer car accidents (although in the beginning people were racing on freeways and we had an increase in fatalities) and other elective procedures.
[/QUOTE]
Plus folks like my in laws have serious fear to set foot in a Hospital and so do I.  Triple bonus for Corona too......That's where 100% the virus lives and looks to kill the weak and the old.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> I have to believe that the vast majority of people have been exposed to Covid on some level or another, maybe not direct contact, but odds are you've touched something or been in the same space as a Covid positive person.
> 
> Ultimately in regards to resuming youth sports, the difference in opinions is based on someone's individual perception of risk (aka fear) and the level of risk they're willing to accept.  Based on the comments here, it appears that those who are most fearful, are basing their fear on what could happen, whereas those who are less fearful are basing it on what has actually happened.  When I've posted good, or positive information, I can't tell you how many posters have basically said "oh just wait, its going to get worse" like were going to run out of icu beds, doctors are going to have to make life or death decisions on who to treat etc.  The common justification was "lag time".  I heard that every time when I mentioned how well Georgia was doing with their reopening, "oh no you have wait a month" a month passes with the number of deaths plummeting, "oh no, you have to wait a few more months, be patient".  Two months later and Covid deaths in Georgia continue to plummet.  It's incredible how many people use the "lag time" argument to just kick the can of Covid fears down the road.  News flash, Covid isn't going away, but its basically only dangerous to a minority of people with very identifiable characteristics.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince those that disagree with me.  Which is the beauty of choice, just don't project your fears on my behavior or others and take my choice away.   While I wear a mask in public out of respect for others, there is simple solution if you run into someone that isn't, move 6 feet away.  No harm, no foul.


As of today, cases in Georgia are surging with all 159 counties reporting cases. There are now about 70,000 cases in Georgia. Three counties have higher per capita case rates and death rates than New York. There have now been about 2,700 deaths with 2,200 in critical condition and the numbers are going up.


----------



## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

Giesbock said:


> Do you have to yell?  If your data is solid, let it stand on merit.


too funny i copied and pasted.  i dont yell.  its not my data its from credible sources


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> elderly or compromised should isolate themselves from everyone and they won't have to worry about youth soccer kids contaminating them


Tell that to the 17 year old girl who just died in Florida today from covid, just two days after her birthday.


----------



## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> As of today, cases in Georgia are surging with all 159 counties reporting cases. There are now about 70,000 cases in Georgia. Three counties have higher per capita case rates and death rates than New York. There have now been about 2,700 deaths with 2,200 in critical condition and the numbers are going up.


734,234 tests   69,368 positive 2,698 death.  in georgia


----------



## jpeter (Jun 24, 2020)

AYSO is back training 

Full on men's game going down

Baseball middle schoolers play on the ball diamond

High Schoolers playing a scrimmage w/ portable goals

At least two personal trainers with half a dozen players one of them using one of the signs says field use prohibited as a goal marker

Good times walking the dogs around, see about half dozen people I know so we catch up


----------



## Chalklines (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Tell that to the 17 year old girl who just died in Florida today from covid, just two days after her birthday.











						Fort Myers girl, 17, dead from coronavirus complications, according to reports
					

The news follows the confirmation Saturday that a 17-year-old Pasco County boy had died from the disease.




					www.tampabay.com
				




You know ZERO about her medical background and underlying health conditions.


----------



## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Tell that to the 17 year old girl who just died in Florida today from covid, just two days after her birthday.


i cant tell her she is dead.  what was her health history?   17 year olds also die while playing sports every year from some undetected health problem. 7000 people died today from something other than covid.  life is risky and precious.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Tell that to the 17 year old girl who just died in Florida today from covid, just two days after her birthday.


Tell that to all the teens who killed themselves today.  I heard also about a 17 year old who died of cancer and another one just had the common flu and she died.  We might know the same people Copa


----------



## Jose has returned (Jun 24, 2020)

Tell that to the 17 year old girl who just died in Florida today from covid, just two days after her birthday.
[/QUOTE]
i cant tell her she is dead.  what was her health history?  The girl you are taking about was heavy. Sad but that is a fact that it is a risk factor  https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200429/obesity-new-risk-factors-for-young-covid-p


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 24, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> Fort Myers girl, 17, dead from coronavirus complications, according to reports
> 
> 
> The news follows the confirmation Saturday that a 17-year-old Pasco County boy had died from the disease.
> ...


True, and how many children have unknown underlying conditions? We don't know if she did or didn't.  We don't know and need to be careful with opening contact sports with our children. Covid is not your typical virus;


----------



## watfly (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Have you looked at the numbers in Georgia as of today?


Just looked and the death rate continues to nosedive.  I suppose you are looking at the new cases which you will claim due to the tired refrain of "lag time" will result in significant deaths.  (BTW Georgia has been reopened for months and I find it curious that there is a sudden spike a week or two after the protests, looting and riots.) I'm sure you will post here in glee if that ever turns out to be right.   Like I said before I find it extremely odd behavior to want things to be worse than they are.


Ellejustus said:


> Tell that to all the teens who killed themselves today.  I heard also about a 17 year old who did of cancer and another one just had the common flu and she died.  We might know the same people Copa


Unfortunately I know a couple teens in our community who have committed suicide as well as a few more in other communities.  Was it due to the social isolation, hard to say, but suicide is one of the non-covid health impacts of the lockdown that medical professional are very concerned about.  In fact some are seeing an unprecedented rise in suicides https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/

This whole tunnel vision with Covid approach is seriously fucked up.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> You are so dumb and ignorant.  There is no point arguing with stupid because stupid just stays stupid.  She has fucking gloves on idiot and she takes all appropriate precautions.


Now this is educated and intelligent.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Messi>CR7 said:


> You want soccer back to normal?  Be pragmatic.  Wear you mask, do your share of social distancing, get the positive test rate down to 4% again, then more and more things will open up.
> 
> No amount of whining or outrage on this forum will result in anything if the infection rate continues at the current pace.


Let's call it a peaceful protest... that's pragmatic


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 24, 2020)

[


Keepermom2 said:


> Herd immunity....How well did that theory work out for Sweden?
> 
> "Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions."
> 
> ...


The uptick in COVID positive ICU patients in the state the past 10 days looks to be a bit over a 10% (around 1100 to about 1220). What is interesting is that LA is flat to barely down. OC is more or less flat if you look at the last 10 days. SD had a sudden drop during the 10 days then resumed at basically the same level so it didn't significantly contribute to the rise in the last 10 days. However, San Bernardino, Riverside, Kern, Stanislaus and Santa Barbara are obviously rising and hit new highs the last 10 days.

ICU Positive in CA


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> As of today, cases in Georgia are surging with all 159 counties reporting cases. There are now about 70,000 cases in Georgia. Three counties have higher per capita case rates and death rates than New York. There have now been about 2,700 deaths with 2,200 in critical condition and the numbers are going up.


Then stay home and cower "snowflake"


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 24, 2020)

watfly said:


> Just looked and the death rate continues to nosedive.  I suppose you are looking at the new cases which you will claim due to the tired refrain of "lag time" will result in significant deaths.  (BTW Georgia has been reopened for months and I find it curious that there is a sudden spike a week or two after the protests, looting and riots.) I'm sure you will post here in glee if that ever turns out to be right.   Like I said before I find it extremely odd behavior to want things to be worse than they are.
> 
> Unfortunately I know a couple teens in our community who have committed suicide as well as a few more in other communities.  Was it due to the social isolation, hard to say, but suicide is one of the non-covid health impacts of the lockdown that medical professional are very concerned about.  In fact some are seeing an unprecedented rise in suicides https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
> 
> This whole tunnel vision with Covid approach is seriously fucked up.


A soul needs a meaning and purpose to live.  Keep in mind a lot of these kids thought we were going to have a war with North Korea and or Iran.  Then the Corona and riots after that.  Crazy ass times for the youth.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 24, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> As of today, cases in Georgia are surging with all 159 counties reporting cases. There are now about 70,000 cases in Georgia. Three counties have higher per capita case rates and death rates than New York. There have now been about 2,700 deaths with 2,200 in critical condition and the numbers are going up.


Yeah, I had hoped that the opening in GA was going to work out so we could copy it. 

I don’t know if GA is growing because the plan was bad, or the plan was good except for the protests.

I really wish we could all wear masks and limit contacts.  Compared to everything else, wearing a mask and having my bridge night online is not a big deal.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 24, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Now this is educated and intelligent.


Fair point but educated and intelligent isn't what I was going for since M decided to attack with idiotic comments.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 24, 2020)

Some people on this forum would make very good Nazis...in a couple of weeks this virus  is going to dictate what happens not the uniformed Nazi here.


----------



## espola (Jun 25, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Some people on this forum would make very good Nazis...in a couple of weeks this virus  is going to dictate what happens not the uniformed Nazi here.


Did you mean "uniformed" or "uninformed"?  I  can see a case for either one.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Some people on this forum would make very good Nazis...i*n a couple of weeks this virus  is going to dictate what happens* not the uniformed Nazi here.


OK Mavs, you say so.  I say this.  In two weeks, the politicians will dictate what happens, not the virus.  Were always behind the data because we won;t know the facts until after the facts.  For example, OC had to add 26 deaths to the death count.  Headline News is what grabs everyone's attention.  OC Register does this all the time.  Look at this mornings headline.  You have to read the article to find the truth:

*Coronavirus: 26 new deaths, 354 new cases in Orange County as of June 24*


_*Update: *Orange County health officials said Wednesday afternoon that “there is a delay in identification and confirmation of deaths and this group of deaths reported today are the result of a concentrated effort to reconcile death certificates with reported cases.” They said the 26 deaths were not all from the previous day, but would even reach back to recent weeks._

The Orange County Health Care Agency reported on Wednesday, June 24, another 26 deaths raising the total in the county since the start of tracking the coronavirus to *299*.

Of those who have died, *152 *were residents of skilled nursing facilities, up from 138 in Tuesday’s daily report.

More than half of those who died were in a nursing home.  I already told many of you their is bonus money for "Corona Death."  So again, your 78 and cursing around healthy in life and then bam, stroke attack and now brain dead because no oxygen to the brain.  Rushed to hospital and they do what they can but you pass away really but do a breathing tube to see if brain wakes up.  I had to do this a twice with dear friends who had strokes.  Is there any brain activity?  Stroke victim gets Corona at the hospital and is considered a corona death in the numbers.  Triple bonus pay plus scare the crap out of everyone.  It's what I call a Twofer.


----------



## messy (Jun 25, 2020)

ajaxahi said:


> So you think I’m cherry-picking by citing Covid-19 death data from the state where we actually live? That’s funny.


MSK remember you bet me in March that fewer than 12,000 would die from the virus? You’ve got real credibility.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 25, 2020)

messy said:


> MSK remember you bet me in March that fewer than 12,000 would die from the virus? You’ve got real credibility.


You're credibility was telling people to stay inside and treat this virus seriously while your "white chocolate" plays with the boys.


----------



## messy (Jun 25, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> You're credibility was telling people to stay inside and treat this virus seriously while your "white chocolate" plays with the boys.


Hey weren’t you going to leave when we hit 12,000?  Shame on you.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 25, 2020)

messy said:


> Hey weren’t you going to leave when we hit 12,000?  Shame on you.


Are you bored?


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 25, 2020)

messy said:


> Hey weren’t you going to leave when we hit 12,000?  Shame on you.


Tell your "white chocolate" to stop contributing to the deaths then.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yeah, I had hoped that the opening in GA was going to work out so we could copy it.
> 
> I don’t know if GA is growing because the plan was bad, or the plan was good except for the protests.
> 
> I really wish we could all wear masks and limit contacts.  Compared to everything else, wearing a mask and having my bridge night online is not a big deal.


Fair question.....based on the timeline, I would say the protests opened the flood gates.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Yeah, I had hoped that the opening in GA was going to work out so we could copy it.
> 
> I don’t know if GA is growing because the plan was bad, or the plan was good except for the protests.
> 
> I really wish we could all wear masks and limit contacts.  Compared to everything else, wearing a mask and having my bridge night online is not a big deal.


Well, it takes 2-3 weeks to have an impact on cases so what happened 2-3 weeks ago?  The protests.  And it wasn't just the spread from the protests but the protests also caused people to think the emergency was over and to also engage in whataboutism: well, if they can do it what about funerals, what about Trump rallies, what about my business, what about my kid's birthday party, what about youth sports?  If the authorities don't treat things as emergencies it's not unfair for people to assume the emergency is over.

Add to that the pathetic mask handling of our leadership.  Fauci admitted he lied about the mask thing early on, so like the boy who cried wolf the public is skeptical.  The WHO lied and continues to lie.  Trump won't wear one.  Don't know if you saw the fiasco (both in behavior and mask usage, by both Nadler and the Republicans) at the House committee hearing yesterday.  And I had to deal with 2 cops yesterday and both of them showed up without masks and didn't put them on until they were shamed by a neighbor and her baby.

There's also the possibility that the wave curves are rigid.  For states which didn't have outbreaks like the northeast, the only thing the lockdowns did was push the outbreaks back in time.  We see that not only in the south but also in the Eastern Europe and even in Eastern Germany.  The most persuasive point on this is the difference between NorCal and SoCal which locked down around the same time and have similar rules and mask requirements.  Like a brush fire, unless you smother it right at the inception, it may be it has to burn through a certain amount of brush before it can be controlled.  The other underwritten thing is that if you've seen what's going on in Mexico, people are fleeing due to the poor medical treatment there...some of the hospital spike in the southern area is being driven by people coming north, though the percentage is unclear and it could be a small effect or a large one.

The initial idea was that we were going to flatten the curve and give ICUs time to prepare.  We did that.  We don't at this point really have any choice but to move forward with life because the protests broke the possibility of having any limiting principle on gatherings, and we are heading into a huge trainwreck with the 4th of July where many informal celebrations will also be protected by the first amendment.  Hopefully people will wear masks when sensible, but at this point the kids may as well play because if movie theatres are open, there's no reason for limiting the kids.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Well, it takes 2-3 weeks to have an impact on cases so what happened 2-3 weeks ago?  The protests.  And it wasn't just the spread from the protests but the protests also caused people to think the emergency was over and to also engage in whataboutism: well, if they can do it what about funerals, what about Trump rallies, what about my business, what about my kid's birthday party, what about youth sports?  If the authorities don't treat things as emergencies it's not unfair for people to assume the emergency is over.
> 
> Add to that the pathetic mask handling of our leadership.  Fauci admitted he lied about the mask thing early on, so like the boy who cried wolf the public is skeptical.  The WHO lied and continues to lie.  Trump won't wear one.  Don't know if you saw the fiasco (both in behavior and mask usage, by both Nadler and the Republicans) at the House committee hearing yesterday.  And I had to deal with 2 cops yesterday and both of them showed up without masks and didn't put them on until they were shamed by a neighbor and her baby.
> 
> ...


San Diego is not allowed to have bbq with friends and neighbors.  What will SD peeps do for the 4th of July?  Can you go to beach and do bbq there?


----------



## chiefs (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> I have to believe that the vast majority of people have been exposed to Covid on some level or another, maybe not direct contact, but odds are you've touched something or been in the same space as a Covid positive person.
> 
> Ultimately in regards to resuming youth sports, the difference in opinions is based on someone's individual perception of risk (aka fear) and the level of risk they're willing to accept.  Based on the comments here, it appears that those who are most fearful, are basing their fear on what could happen, whereas those who are less fearful are basing it on what has actually happened.  When I've posted good, or positive information, I can't tell you how many posters have basically said "oh just wait, its going to get worse" like were going to run out of icu beds, doctors are going to have to make life or death decisions on who to treat etc.  The common justification was "lag time".  I heard that every time when I mentioned how well Georgia was doing with their reopening, "oh no you have wait a month" a month passes with the number of deaths plummeting, "oh no, you have to wait a few more months, be patient".  Two months later and Covid deaths in Georgia continue to plummet.  It's incredible how many people use the "lag time" argument to just kick the can of Covid fears down the road.  News flash, Covid isn't going away, but its basically only dangerous to a minority of people with very identifiable characteristics.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince those that disagree with me.  Which is the beauty of choice, just don't project your fears on my behavior or others and take my choice away.   While I wear a mask in public out of respect for others, there is simple solution if you run into someone that isn't, move 6 feet away.  No harm, no foul.





Copa9 said:


> Tell her, model for her, be an example, IT IS NOT FOREVER!  Give her options, be positive about what she can do.  Of course it is not the same.  It is also not the same as sheltering in place.  We will get back to normal. Children reflect what the parents say and do.  Guess what?  Negative parents beget negative kids. Sit down with her and talk to her about what she is really missing, validate what she says then discuss options and what path we are on to get back to normal. We are developing better therapeutics, we will eventually get a vaccine.


Tell me Dr, what is worse? Cmon   









						Coronavirus pandemic may lead to 75,000 "deaths of despair" from suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, study says
					

Job loss, isolation and anxiety could lead to more deaths from suicide and substance abuse over the next 10 years, researchers say.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 25, 2020)

Maybe people are not Nazi maybe they are just...


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/hfkxg8


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Tell me Dr, what is worse? Cmon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Copa must be home with kids during these tough times.  Most parents have to work two jobs to make ends meet.  So when both parents are not home for little 14 year old Sally, she's home all alone.  There lies the problem Copa.  What is little Sally or little Jonny going to do?  Grandma, whose still alive, is in the risk category and can;t watch the grand kids.  Copa, what should one do with this situation?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Fair point but educated and intelligent isn't what I was going for since M decided to attack with idiotic comments.


Ah, I see...cite idiotic comments to justify idiotic comments... Brilliant!

You're obviously way too educated and intelligent for this venue... it's beneath you.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Ah, I see...cite idiotic comments to justify idiotic comments... Brilliant!
> 
> You're obviously way too educated and intelligent for this venue... it's beneath you.


Yeah impulse move and reactionary.  Worst comment ever made on here.  I usually keep my emotions in check.   Why are you trying to insite a further argument?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

I'm starting to see a pattern.  Rich folks who have so much money in the bank can sit at home and have zero financial fear.  #1 reason spouses fight is over $$$$.  If you don;t have any, more fights probably is what some data shows.  They have a huge back yard too or can hop the fence for play time with the other rich neighbor friends kids and so exercise is all good and easy for their kids.  Plus parents are so rich they can watch their kiddos for free and then come on here and spank us all for being so stupid and that we would want to cause death to others or something like that.  The truth is, most kids teenagers are being left alone and getting into much trouble.  Of course, it;s all the negative parents fault who still have to work their essential jobs at grocery stores.  I've never seen such a double standard ever in my life on this planet.  The good news is we get to see behind the mask of whats really going on.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Yeah impulse move and reactionary.  Worst comment ever made on here.  I usually keep my emotions in check.   Why are you trying to insite a further argument?


I'm not, I just find projection interesting and easily confirmed.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> OK Mavs, you say so.  I say this.  In two weeks, the politicians will dictate what happens, not the virus.  Were always behind the data because we won;t know the facts until after the facts.  For example, OC had to add 26 deaths to the death count.  Headline News is what grabs everyone's attention.  OC Register does this all the time.  Look at this mornings headline.  You have to read the article to find the truth:
> 
> *Coronavirus: 26 new deaths, 354 new cases in Orange County as of June 24*
> 
> ...


Orange County health numbers are always messed up.  The State site has more accurate numbers because the hospitals appear to be more accountable to the State rather than the county.  OC numbers are usually at least 10% less than the State and they have 7 less hospitals reporting to them.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I'm not, I just find projection interesting and easily confirmed.


Go check if that is what makes you happy.  LOL


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I'm starting to see a pattern.  Rich folks who have so much money in the bank can sit at home and have zero financial fear.  #1 reason spouses fight is over $$$$.  If you don;t have any, more fights probably is what some data shows.  They have a huge back yard too or can hop the fence for play time with the other rich neighbor friends kids and so exercise is all good and easy for their kids.  Plus parents are so rich they can watch their kiddos for free and then come on here and spank us all for being so stupid and that we would want to cause death to others or something like that.  The truth is, most kids teenagers are being left alone and getting into much trouble.  Of course, it;s all the negative parents fault who still have to work their essential jobs at grocery stores.  I've never seen such a double standard ever in my life on this planet.  The good news is we get to see behind the mask of whats really going on.


It's safe to say every one of these folks subjugating to government officials and so-called "experts" while dictating my rights draws a steady income...prove me wrong.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Fair question.....based on the timeline, I would say the protests opened the flood gates.


Only because people chose to react that way.  People want to rationalize, because it lets them do what they want.

If you rationalize, you can host a 30 person dance party in your house and still feel good about yourself because at least you aren’t looting Target.  It’s still just as bad an idea as it was in April.  But now we have a convincing story for when we want to lie to ourselves.

EJ has a point about there being nothing for kids to do.  It’s a lot easier for single income families and those with desk jobs who can telecommute.  If you have a stay at home parent, you can play a board game or kick a ball with your kid whenever you need.  Lots of families don’t have that.

There isn’t much reason for the youth restrictions, especially for those under 10 or 12.  But there is way to get rid of them as long we spend our risk budget on dining out, movies, and going mask-free.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> It's safe to say every one of these folks subjugating to government officials and so-called "experts" while dictating my rights draws a steady income...prove me wrong.


No one can prove you wrong.  You only listen to yourself.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Go check if that is what makes you happy.  LOL


That's it? Take care.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> No one can prove you wrong.  You only listen to yourself.


Weak... I'm all ears.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Only because people chose to react that way.  People want to rationalize, because it lets them do what they want.
> 
> If you rationalize, you can host a 30 person dance party in your house and still feel good about yourself because at least you aren’t looting Target.  It’s still just as bad an idea as it was in April.  But now we have a convincing story for when we want to lie to ourselves.
> 
> ...


U5-U17.  I do see your climbing up a little.  Kids need a purpose to live folks.  Duh!!!


----------



## paytoplay (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Well, it takes 2-3 weeks to have an impact on cases so what happened 2-3 weeks ago?  The protests.  And it wasn't just the spread from the protests but the protests also caused people to think the emergency was over and to also engage in whataboutism: well, if they can do it what about funerals, what about Trump rallies, what about my business, what about my kid's birthday party, what about youth sports?  If the authorities don't treat things as emergencies it's not unfair for people to assume the emergency is over.
> 
> Add to that the pathetic mask handling of our leadership.  Fauci admitted he lied about the mask thing early on, so like the boy who cried wolf the public is skeptical.  The WHO lied and continues to lie.  Trump won't wear one.  Don't know if you saw the fiasco (both in behavior and mask usage, by both Nadler and the Republicans) at the House committee hearing yesterday.  And I had to deal with 2 cops yesterday and both of them showed up without masks and didn't put them on until they were shamed by a neighbor and her baby.
> 
> ...


To restate what we already know, the PUBLIC protests from the right wing groups, open carry militias and anti-maskers, Michigan, Huntington Beach, etc., and the actions of Trump to undermine and make political the pandemic response, immediately preceded the George Floyd protests. Let’s not forget the idiots like the ones out there on PCH at Main Beach breached the damn first. Not to excuse the blm protests, but when half the country started to disregard the idea behind shutdown, inevitably the virus would come back strong. That’s why cases and deaths are growing in states that don’t necessarily correlate to the blm protests, and are more about denial of the whole endeavor and a wish to return to “normal.”


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> U5-U17.  I do see your climbing up a little.  Kids need a purpose to live folks.  Duh!!!


olders are still higher risk than youngers.  If I we a cluster caused by an outdoor game, I’ll be back to advocating under 10 only.

Kids only, either way.  No need for a cluster of 45 year olds on the sideline talking to each other.  That’s riskier than the game.


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## Soccermaverick (Jun 25, 2020)

The five year olds here really suck.


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Weak... I'm all ears.


then go back and read the earlier posts.

You keep talking about infectious disease as a libertarian issue of individual rights.  People keep pointing out that your actions affect the health of other people.  You keep ignoring them and repeating your personal liberty argument.

No discussion.  Just a libertarian absolutist who refuses to think about whether his actions have an impact on other people.  

As long as you refuse to to think about this as infectious disease, no one can prove anything to you, because your ears and mind are fully closed.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> U5-U17.  I do see your climbing up a little.  Kids need a purpose to live folks.  Duh!!!


My daughter found her purpose during lock down...before lock down she had less than 10,000 followers and now she has over 70,000 followers from showing how she video edits Anime.  LOL


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> olders are still higher risk than youngers.  If I we a cluster caused by an outdoor game, I’ll be back to advocating under 10 only.
> 
> Kids only, either way.  No need for a cluster of 45 year olds on the sideline talking to each other.  That’s riskier than the game.


But beach is ok to hang out all day?  Tell you want dad of 4 kids with nothing else to do, let us take the risk and you stay home this season.  I know your really jealous of being left out of the party like copa and others.  If you can;t have the top league, no one can is some folks motto.  Like most with that attitude, money is no worry.  I bet all you with nice jobs that are safe from never losing your gig would go cray cray if your industry ((career or job)) just disappeared like fart in the wind that will never come back.  So now all the negative parents who lost their income need to find work and also keep their four kids entertained?  My sister in law is a single mom of three and also a middle school counselor in Riverside.  My mother in law used to watch the kids but can;t because she's 75 and has health issues.  She is left alone with zero help and has to teach somehow in August and also watch her three kids.  The oldest boy is a stud at GSFC and can;t play or play hoops and all that stuff.  The other two were going to play AYSO and other activities but they can't.  I spoke to her and it's been very difficult to say the least.  This is going on everywhere.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> My daughter found her purpose during lock down...before lock down she had less than 10,000 followers and now she has over 70,000 followers from showing how she video edits Anime.  LOL


Oh joy


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## Socal United (Jun 25, 2020)

I find it unfortunate how people are so torn on this issue.  Copa, Mav, Espola, you guys are honestly a little much on this subject.  The problem is, you guys are ok living in a world of fear.  Staying home for the time really needed is not an option.  We can't do years, which is what would be needed to get done what you would like to get done, to keep this under control.  That is the reality, I know you know you can't dispute that.  This is now part of our lives and that will be the case for years to come.  The idea that the vaccine is going to fix everything is folly.  On the flip side, there are quite a few people on here that are like our president, an ostrich in the sand.  Nothing is ok and it isn't going to be alright.  Our country is an absolute shit show and we have nobody to blame but ourselves.  The reality is, we are not wired to deal with things like this because we are arguably the most idealistically diverse country on this planet.  We can't compare ourselves to other places because they can get their people behind and idea much better that we can.  There is not one single issue that our country could get behind, no matter what it is.  Covid, protests, 100 degrees in Antartica, etc are great examples of that fact.  

As for any of those people that think that what is going on with our country isn't affecting our youth, you are as bad as our President.  I have a 19 and 21 year old home again due to Covid.  We sit down and talk as much as we can but this has been devastating to them.  Last night, we sat down and talked about a myriad of subjects.  The biggest one is suicide.  Both of them were surprisingly open about the conversations that they have had with friends in regard to current life.  "We have what equates to it is going to be ok, don't do anything stupid talks every week or two amongst friends in our group."  That is hard to hear your kids talk about but I appreciate their willingness to talk about it.  What I think hurt me the most was the talk of kids.  I honestly can't wait to have grandkids to spoil, watch play, etc.  I miss that part of my life selfishly more than anything else.  Both of my kids said that they are unsure that they want to bring kids into the world any more given what is going on and where we are going.  That is frightening to hear kids this age say but they are so frustrated with the way people our age are screwing up this country that they are not sure they want the responsibility of raising kids in the direction we are going.  Ouch.  Are they wrong?

What makes this country great is also part of our demise.  Our individual nature, which I live for, is also what is holding us back in times of crisis.  I hope by some act of God we can turn this around but I am not as hopeful as I would like to be.  Btw, I am an independent so no political backing here one way or the other.  I have voted on both sides as well as the middle once, I prefer to choose who I believe in the most.  This November will be the toughest decision ever, 330 million people and these two are the best we can come up with.  I teach a PoliSci 102 course, we discuss at length what we should do to revamp the system.  The buy in from these 18-20 year olds is outstanding.  There is hope if us older folk can just get out of their way....


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> But beach is ok to hang out all day?  Tell you want dad of 4 kids with nothing else to do, let us take the risk and you stay home this season.  I know your really jealous of being left out of the party like copa and others.  If you can;t have the top league, no one can is some folks motto.  Like most with that attitude, money is no worry.  I bet all you with nice jobs that are safe from never losing your gig would go cray cray if your industry ((career or job)) just disappeared like fart in the wind that will never come back.  So now all the negative parents who lost their income need to find work and also keep their four kids entertained?  My sister in law is a single mom of three and also a middle school counselor in Riverside.  My mother in law used to watch the kids but can;t because she's 75 and has health issues.  She is left alone with zero help and has to teach somehow in August and also watch her three kids.  The oldest boy is a stud at GSFC and can;t play or play hoops and all that stuff.  The other two were going to play AYSO and other activities but they can't.  I spoke to her and it's been very difficult to say the least.  This is going on everywhere.


I am a single parent of 2 girls and I am self employed with no family near by.  I am not sure where my future income will come from and if they will allow me to work at home.  If I die, my children will have no parent because I adopted them on my own.  So...be careful about assuming you know everyone's situation.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

I'll just add to the points already made.  It's easy for club soccer parents who typically have, comparatively speaking, a more stable financial and home situation, to say just stay at home, etc.  However, the lockdown and social isolation negatively impacts the underprivileged and disadvantaged children disproportionally more than our kids.  This upcoming school year is likely to be a disaster for many of the underprivileged kids.  I hate the word "new normal", particularly as it relates to education.  The "new normal" will result in substandard education because there is no replacement for in-person, interactive learning.  Once the "new normal" is implemented this fall its likely never to change back to traditional learning, because that's just how our government works.  The underprivileged have not been well served by our educational community in many cases, and this will only cause them to fall farther and farther behind.  Although, these kids aren't likely playing club sports, they need some sort of sport or exercise as an outlet.  PE in a lot of schools is being banned.  Those that are physically in school will be tethered to their desks for the entire school day.  It's sad to punish children in the name of a virus that has little to no impact on them.

On an entirely different note, a shout out to GraceT who months ago predicted that because of the early shutdown in California that Covid cases would be drawn out and smolder over a long period of time.  Logic prevails.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> Just looked and the death rate continues to nosedive.  I suppose you are looking at the new cases which you will claim due to the tired refrain of "lag time" will result in significant deaths.  (BTW Georgia has been reopened for months and I find it curious that there is a sudden spike a week or two after the protests, looting and riots.) I'm sure you will post here in glee if that ever turns out to be right.   Like I said before I find it extremely odd behavior to want things to be worse than they are.
> 
> Unfortunately I know a couple teens in our community who have committed suicide as well as a few more in other communities.  Was it due to the social isolation, hard to say, but suicide is one of the non-covid health impacts of the lockdown that medical professional are very concerned about.  In fact some are seeing an unprecedented rise in suicides https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
> 
> This whole tunnel vision with Covid approach is seriously fucked up.


I love how you and others are already preparing to be wrong. When more people die as a result of the abysmal way Covid is being handled in the US, the only thing you will be able to do to avoid confronting that you’re an idiot is to claim that everyone who was right is “gleeful” that more people are dying. But the truth is no one is gloating about it, and the only one who’s a POS is the person who mocks the very simple and obvious concept of wearing a face covering, lacks the discipline to avoid crowds whenever possible and is also too much of a p**y to accept responsibility for their role in advocating and supporting obviously stupid behavior that kills people.

And suggesting suicides are up because of the particular things the government is doing about Covid that you don’t like is just ludicrous.  Using your own rhetorical device against you, it just shows how “gleeful” you are about people dying so you can rationalize why you want to go to the brewery and live vicariously through your child’s sports.

But if you want to speculate so badly why a few teens have committed suicide, I’m going to speculate that there are a lot of other more likely reasons than not being able to play team sports or going out to dinner for a couple months. I’m going to speculate that there’s an overall feeling among much of our youth that now is the worst time ever to be an American, and are embarrassed to even be one. They see the EU propose banning Americans due to our poor handling of Covid, which is a polite way of saying the EU plans to ban Americans because they’re undeniably stupid as a whole. They see their government ruling based on fear and fueled by hate of entire classes of people, to which many of them either belong or support. They’re seeing American Aryan Hitler Youth claiming - in church of all places - that Aunt Jemima symbolizes the American Dream. They see the irony and sadness in the fact that our privileged little dumb blonde is actually telling everyone, without realizing it, that the idea of the American Dream that their parents held onto so dearly is a farce. They see their own moronic parents claim that people out protesting are stupid, but then turn right around and use those stupid people as their excuse to go out themselves. They’re seeing idiots claim that wearing masks are killing people because air can’t get in and out, but also claiming that masks don’t work because, uh, the air that carries the virus does get in and out.

And there’s also no telling whether sitting at home is a bigger factor in depression than if there had been no sheltering and a lot more people, including friends and family members, had died instead. In short, speculating that shelter-in-place restrictions were a bad idea because maybe perhaps it contributed to a few suicides is just grasping at straws in a weak effort to rationalize why getting a beer at the brewery is more important to you than, well, people living.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> To restate what we already know, the PUBLIC protests from the right wing groups, open carry militias and anti-maskers, Michigan, Huntington Beach, etc., and the actions of Trump to undermine and make political the pandemic response, immediately preceded the George Floyd protests. Let’s not forget the idiots like the ones out there on PCH at Main Beach breached the damn first. Not to excuse the blm protests, but when half the country started to disregard the idea behind shutdown, inevitably the virus would come back strong. That’s why cases and deaths are growing in states that don’t necessarily correlate to the blm protests, and are more about denial of the whole endeavor and a wish to return to “normal.”


Well, I have plenty of criticism for Trump (he did something things right too, and there's some things that you can't blame him for unless you take the buck-stops-here position in which case Cuomo is an outright murderer).  But the public was unified against the lockdown protests, or at the miminum felt that like drive thru worship they should have been limited to driving (and some were).  You may have a point it seeded thing, but it didn't break the dam.  And you are right, if you want to point to seeding it was the poor leadership among our politicians (left and right) and supposedly-neutral experts that led to this, whether decisions to not reign in out of control cops, stupid decisions like close the beaches, or decisions target can sell food but has to close gardening supplies, or public health officers saying the protests were o.k. because they were important (everyone has something important) or their personal decisions to get haircuts or go to their second homes when the public was stuck at home.  If you are going to get mad, be mad at all of them, because they were all (for the most part) horrible, left and right, elected and appointed.

But the fact remains the protests shattered any limiting standard, and we are headed for a train wreck on the 4th of July.  You can't say limit 4th celebrations but the protests continue to this day, because it's patently unconstitutional to do that.  So, let em play...even if it's as bad as the doom and gloomers say (and it isn't), no reason to pick on the kids when everyone is doing what they want.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I am a single parent of 2 girls and I am self employed with no family near by.  I am not sure where my future income will come from and if they will allow me to work at home.  If I die, my children will have no parent because I adopted them on my own.  So...be careful about assuming you know everyone's situation.


That's awesome you adopted two kids  and the future is not looking good for many on the income front.  I wasn;t speaking to you at all.  I dont know you.  I was just sharing a true story that is from a personal experience.  Thanks for sharing


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> I'll just add to the points already made.  It's easy for club soccer parents who typically have, comparatively speaking, a more stable financial and home situation, to say just stay at home, etc.  However, the lockdown and social isolation negatively impacts the underprivileged and disadvantaged children disproportionally more than our kids.  This upcoming school year is likely to be a disaster for many of the underprivileged kids.  I hate the word "new normal", particularly as it relates to education.  The "new normal" will result in substandard education because there is no replacement for in-person, interactive learning.  Once the "new normal" is implemented this fall its likely never to change back to traditional learning, because that's just how our government works.  The underprivileged have not been well served by our educational community in many cases, and this will only cause them to fall farther and farther behind.  Although, these kids aren't likely playing club sports, they need some sort of sport or exercise as an outlet.  PE in a lot of schools is being banned.  Those that are physically in school will be tethered to their desks for the entire school day.  It's sad to punish children in the name of a virus that has little to no impact on them.
> 
> On an entirely different note, a shout out to GraceT who months ago predicted that because of the early shutdown in California that Covid cases would be drawn out and smolder over a long period of time.  Logic prevails.


Is the PE teacher toast now?  When I was doing some student teaching and observing others to see if I wanted to be PE teacher and the hoops coach,  I talked with many teachers and some seem to not like the PE teacher who happens to be head baseball coach too.  I was told from many that PE will be the first to go and here we are.  What happens to the PE teacher?


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I love how you and others are already preparing to be wrong. When more people die as a result of the abysmal way Covid is being handled in the US, the only thing you will be able to do to avoid confronting that you’re an idiot is to claim that everyone who was right is “gleeful” that more people are dying. But the truth is no one is gloating about it, and the only one who’s a POS is the person who mocks the very simple and obvious concept of wearing a face covering, lacks the discipline to avoid crowds whenever possible and is also too much of a p**y to accept responsibility for their role in advocating and supporting obviously stupid behavior that kills people.
> 
> And suggesting suicides are up because of the particular things the government is doing about Covid that you don’t like is just ludicrous.  Using your own rhetorical device against you, it just shows how “gleeful” you are about people dying so you can rationalize why you want to go to the brewery and live vicariously through your child’s sports.
> 
> ...


So I already copied and shared this response with a friend.  We agreed...you hit the nail on the head!!!!


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> That's awesome you adopted two kids  and the future is not looking good for many on the income front. I wasn;t speaking to you at all. I dont know you. I was just sharing a true story that is from a personal experience. Thanks for sharing


The tone of your posts appear to lump everyone in that disagrees with you into the rich, easy life category, and I just wanted to dispel that myth.  Thanks for the nice comment.


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## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> . They see the EU propose banning Americans due to our poor handling of Covid, which is a polite way of saying the EU plans to ban Americans because they’re undeniably stupid as a whole.


Errrr... the EU is having the same issue in Eastern Europe (including Eastern Germany) that we are in our southern states.  The only reason it's not more pronounced is the major population centers are in the western portion of Europe for the most part, while our southern areas (FL, Socal, Tx) contain some of the more populous zones.  For the record too, while I thought Trump was right about the China ban (which bought some time), I think the Europe ban did very little because the horse is out of the barn.

Further, it has been shown suicides are up (yeah, say cite away...don't have time to hunt), as well as OD, abuse, and delayed hospitalization deaths.  Not saying this justified no lockdowns (in fact I think they were needed but were timed poorly), but that you need to look at costs at both sides of the equation.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> The tone of your posts appear to lump everyone in that disagrees with you into the rich, easy life category, and I just wanted to dispel that myth.  Thanks for the nice comment.


So you know how to interpret "tone" on a message board?  You must be an empath.  Most woman are and so am I.  I can promise you I was only talking to dad of 4 and others who are married and have awesome money in the bank.  You answered a post to dad of 4.  I didnt say everyone either.  Just saying.  I was adopted too and my mom adopted 8 total kids.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

Just to clarify the "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters seem to be deathly afraid of the "Bigger Picture" posters not wearing masks.  This is not about masks, none of the "Bigger Picture" posters have said they will not wear a mask if they can't social distance.  The "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters just assume that since the "Bigger Picture" posters don't buy into the covid hysteria that they're not going to wear mask.  Masks suck, but they may be effective to some degree.   Again I wear a mask if I can't social distance out of respect for others.  And again if you run across someone who isn't wearing a mask move 6 feet away.  It's that simple.  If your around people that are comfortable not wearing a mask, more power to you if you decide to not wear a mask, its called freedom of choice.


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## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I love how you and others are already preparing to be wrong. When more people die as a result of the abysmal way Covid is being handled in the US, the only thing you will be able to do to avoid confronting that you’re an idiot is to claim that everyone who was right is “gleeful” that more people are dying. But the truth is no one is gloating about it, and the only one who’s a POS is the person who mocks the very simple and obvious concept of wearing a face covering, lacks the discipline to avoid crowds whenever possible and is also too much of a p**y to accept responsibility for their role in advocating and supporting obviously stupid behavior that kills people.
> 
> And suggesting suicides are up because of the particular things the government is doing about Covid that you don’t like is just ludicrous.  Using your own rhetorical device against you, it just shows how “gleeful” you are about people dying so you can rationalize why you want to go to the brewery and live vicariously through your child’s sports.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this!


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> Just to clarify the "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters seem to be deathly afraid of the "Bigger Picture" posters not wearing masks.  This is not about masks, none of the "Bigger Picture" posters have said they will not wear a mask if they can't social distance.  The "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters just assume that since the "Bigger Picture" posters don't buy into the covid hysteria that they're not going to wear mask.  Masks suck, but they may be effective to some degree.   Again I wear a mask if I can't social distance out of respect for others.  And again if you run across someone who isn't wearing a mask move 6 feet away.  It's that simple.  If your around people that are comfortable not wearing a mask, more power to you if you decide to not wear a mask, its called freedom of choice.


We went to Day camp on Tuesday and every adult had a mask on.  I went to my car and took my mask off.  I will confess I took it off on the way to the car so I think I should have waited until I actually got in my car.  I'll do better today at camp


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I love how you and others are already preparing to be wrong. When more people die as a result of the abysmal way Covid is being handled in the US, the only thing you will be able to do to avoid confronting that you’re an idiot is to claim that everyone who was right is “gleeful” that more people are dying. But the truth is no one is gloating about it, and the only one who’s a POS is the person who mocks the very simple and obvious concept of wearing a face covering, lacks the discipline to avoid crowds whenever possible and is also too much of a p**y to accept responsibility for their role in advocating and supporting obviously stupid behavior that kills people.
> 
> And suggesting suicides are up because of the particular things the government is doing about Covid that you don’t like is just ludicrous.  Using your own rhetorical device against you, it just shows how “gleeful” you are about people dying so you can rationalize why you want to go to the brewery and live vicariously through your child’s sports.
> 
> ...


I'll just post this again since you have Covid tunnel vision (and because you resort to name calling since the facts don't support your narrative).  This is what medical professionals at the highest levels are predicting regarding non-covid impacts vs covid impacts to health.  Clearly the non-covid impacts (due to the interruption of treatment and social isolation etc) are substantially greater than the direct covid impacts.  Your claims regarding mental health issues are not supported by the concerns of actual medical professionals.  Its not with glee that I point out the other negative impacts, I point it out to show we need to consider the bigger picture.  I wish for all health impacts to be considered and for limiting those that are be afflicted with Covid, non-Covid and mental health issues.  It's an incredibly difficult balancing act, but its impossible to balance if you don't even consider the other health issues.  I believe the Covid blanket lockdown was originally done in good faith (despite my belief that a targeted approach would have been significantly more effective) but now its become entirely political and neither the left or Trump can claim innocence.


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> Just to clarify the "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters seem to be deathly afraid of the "Bigger Picture" posters not wearing masks.  This is not about masks, none of the "Bigger Picture" posters have said they will not wear a mask if they can't social distance.  The "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters just assume that since the "Bigger Picture" posters don't buy into the covid hysteria that they're not going to wear mask.  Masks suck, but they may be effective to some degree.   Again I wear a mask if I can't social distance out of respect for others.  And again if you run across someone who isn't wearing a mask move 6 feet away.  It's that simple.  If your around people that are comfortable not wearing a mask, more power to you if you decide to not wear a mask, its called freedom of choice.


If your way worked, Arizona would be under control.  They tried exactly what you propose, got a huge spike, and now have the governor asking everyone to ”Mask up, Arizona”.   Same goes for Texas.

So, enjoy being a “Bigger Spreader” poster if you like, but understand it for what it is.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> Just to clarify the "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters seem to be deathly afraid of the "Bigger Picture" posters not wearing masks.  This is not about masks, none of the "Bigger Picture" posters have said they will not wear a mask if they can't social distance.  The "Covid Tunnel Vision" posters just assume that since the "Bigger Picture" posters don't buy into the covid hysteria that they're not going to wear mask.  Masks suck, but they may be effective to some degree.   Again I wear a mask if I can't social distance out of respect for others.  And again if you run across someone who isn't wearing a mask move 6 feet away.  It's that simple.  If your around people that are comfortable not wearing a mask, more power to you if you decide to not wear a mask, its called freedom of choice.


So here is @watfly using the same rhetorical device again. When you don’t have facts, or science, or anything on your side, just characterize the person telling you what you don’t want to hear as “gleeful” when people die or “tunnel visioned”.  In other words, just attack the person stating the science-backed position because that’s all you have. Me, on the other hand, I’ve got science on my side AND I’m perfectly happy to make personal attacks right back at those who think that’s a useful debate tactic. Super fun. 

If anyone is tunnel-visioned, it’s the person who doesn’t wear a mask when they go out and won’t stay home unless they need to go out. It’s the people who look at 120,000 dead, know that number may be 200,000 by November, and label people who understand that those are really big and unnecessary numbers as “hysterical”.  But the only people who are hysterical are the whackos going ballistic when Costco or the grocery store won’t let them in unless they put on a mask and storming state capitols with their AR-15s because they think they’ve been denied a 1st amendment right to get a haircut at Sport Clips for a couple months.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If your way worked, Arizona would be under control.  They tried exactly what you propose, got a huge spike, and now have the governor asking everyone to ”Mask up, Arizona”.   Same goes for Texas.
> 
> So, enjoy being a “Bigger Spreader” poster if you like, but understand it for what it is.


Well the interesting thing for AZ and the other states with any sudden spikes are that the largest numbers of positive cases are in the younger age groups. And those are the age groups least likely to have an issue. In AZ about half of all positive cases are in the 20-44 age range. That number has been rising. At the same time that age group contributes 92 to the 1450 deaths. 

In Cal you see 64% off all positive cases are 49 and younger. And yet they only account for 6% of all deaths. 

Cal for instance has been trending up in positive cases now since early April and yet deaths per day remain rather flat. That covers the lag by the way. 

The people that have had issues and currently have issues are generally old with serious health issues.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)




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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If your way worked, Arizona would be under control.  They tried exactly what you propose, got a huge spike, and now have the governor asking everyone to ”Mask up, Arizona”.   Same goes for Texas.
> 
> So, enjoy being a “Bigger Spreader” poster if you like, but understand it for what it is.


I'm proposing to wear a mask in public (except when I'm trying to get food or drink in my mouth), not sure how that makes me a super spreader.  I take the necessary precautions based on common sense, as do my family and friends.  I take an even more cautious approach with our employees because I shouldn't be deciding the level of risk they should accept, that's their choice (see how that works).  None of my family or friends has contracted the virus so its worked so far.  Only one of our many employees who are in contact with the public on daily basis has contracted Covid and that individual got it from their partner who works in a high risk occupation.  Maybe our group is just lucky, but I suspect its because of the reasonable precautions we take.


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## paytoplay (Jun 25, 2020)

1-America does not respond well to public health crises and problems that other advanced countries have already solved (gun deaths, universal health care).

2-Leadership is willfully incompetent. We have poor role models. Trump could wear a mask, but unfortunately he’s a psychopath.

3-Soccer gossip, trashing clubs, refs, coaches is more rewarding than politics.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

Socal United said:


> I find it unfortunate how people are so torn on this issue.  Copa, Mav, Espola, you guys are honestly a little much on this subject.  The problem is, you guys are ok living in a world of fear.  Staying home for the time really needed is not an option.  We can't do years, which is what would be needed to get done what you would like to get done, to keep this under control.  That is the reality, I know you know you can't dispute that.  This is now part of our lives and that will be the case for years to come.  The idea that the vaccine is going to fix everything is folly.  On the flip side, there are quite a few people on here that are like our president, an ostrich in the sand.  Nothing is ok and it isn't going to be alright.  Our country is an absolute shit show and we have nobody to blame but ourselves.  The reality is, we are not wired to deal with things like this because we are arguably the most idealistically diverse country on this planet.  We can't compare ourselves to other places because they can get their people behind and idea much better that we can.  There is not one single issue that our country could get behind, no matter what it is.  Covid, protests, 100 degrees in Antartica, etc are great examples of that fact.
> 
> As for any of those people that think that what is going on with our country isn't affecting our youth, you are as bad as our President.  I have a 19 and 21 year old home again due to Covid.  We sit down and talk as much as we can but this has been devastating to them.  Last night, we sat down and talked about a myriad of subjects.  The biggest one is suicide.  Both of them were surprisingly open about the conversations that they have had with friends in regard to current life.  "We have what equates to it is going to be ok, don't do anything stupid talks every week or two amongst friends in our group."  That is hard to hear your kids talk about but I appreciate their willingness to talk about it.  What I think hurt me the most was the talk of kids.  I honestly can't wait to have grandkids to spoil, watch play, etc.  I miss that part of my life selfishly more than anything else.  Both of my kids said that they are unsure that they want to bring kids into the world any more given what is going on and where we are going.  That is frightening to hear kids this age say but they are so frustrated with the way people our age are screwing up this country that they are not sure they want the responsibility of raising kids in the direction we are going.  Ouch.  Are they wrong?
> 
> What makes this country great is also part of our demise.  Our individual nature, which I live for, is also what is holding us back in times of crisis.  I hope by some act of God we can turn this around but I am not as hopeful as I would like to be.  Btw, I am an independent so no political backing here one way or the other.  I have voted on both sides as well as the middle once, I prefer to choose who I believe in the most.  This November will be the toughest decision ever, 330 million people and these two are the best we can come up with.  I teach a PoliSci 102 course, we discuss at length what we should do to revamp the system.  The buy in from these 18-20 year olds is outstanding.  There is hope if us older folk can just get out of their way....


Our President?  Our President knows the government hasn't done shit for the people that pay their salaries.  1 stimulus check this entire time?  Californians that have been unemployed and not received a single unemployment check in 3 months?  Get off Trump's dick and go call Pelosi... ask that drunken bitch why she managed to get money to The Kennedy Center and illegals but not American tax paying citizens.  And "bullshit" to your "no political backing" statement.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> 1-America does not respond well to public health crises and problems that other advanced countries have already solved (gun deaths, universal health care).
> 
> 2-Leadership is willfully incompetent. We have poor role models. Trump could wear a mask, but unfortunately he’s a psychopath.
> 
> 3-Soccer gossip, trashing clubs, refs, coaches is more rewarding than politics.


Who solved gun deaths?  Have you talked to anyone from a country with "universal healthcare"?  And so you know, the U.S. already has universal healthcare.  The problem is that not everyone pays into it... only the people with jobs and something to lose.  Your governor is a libtard... I've yet to see him wear a mask, but I guess a "role model" wouldn't bang his best friend's wife, either.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> I'll just post this again since you have Covid tunnel vision (and because you resort to name calling since the facts don't support your narrative).  This is what medical professionals at the highest levels are predicting regarding non-covid impacts vs covid impacts to health.  Clearly the non-covid impacts (due to the interruption of treatment and social isolation etc) are substantially greater than the direct covid impacts.  Your claims regarding mental health issues are not supported by the concerns of actual medical professionals.  Its not with glee that I point out the other negative impacts, I point it out to show we need to consider the bigger picture.  I wish for all health impacts to be considered and for limiting those that are be afflicted with Covid, non-Covid and mental health issues.  It's an incredibly difficult balancing act, but its impossible to balance if you don't even consider the other health issues.  I believe the Covid blanket lockdown was originally done in good faith (despite my belief that a targeted approach would have been significantly more effective) but now its become entirely political and neither the left or Trump can claim innocence.
> 
> View attachment 7901


Uh, what you posted is not science, it is a meme. Tell me, where are we on each of the lines? How many people are at the top of each of the fakey fake lines on your meme? What are the specific times when each of the lines reach their apex? There is literally nothing quantifiable about this. Your chart is as scientific as a photo of a chimpanzee wearing a mask accompanied by some zinger.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> So here is @watfly using the same rhetorical device again. When you don’t have facts, or science, or anything on your side, just characterize the person telling you what you don’t want to hear as “gleeful” when people die or “tunnel visioned”.  In other words, just attack the person stating the science-backed position because that’s all you have. Me, on the other hand, I’ve got science on my side AND I’m perfectly happy to make personal attacks right back at those who think that’s a useful debate tactic. Super fun.
> 
> If anyone is tunnel-visioned, it’s the person who doesn’t wear a mask when they go out and won’t stay home unless they need to go out. It’s the people who look at 120,000 dead, know that number may be 200,000 by November, and label people who understand that those are really big and unnecessary numbers as “hysterical”.  But the only people who are hysterical are the whackos going ballistic when Costco or the grocery store won’t let them in unless they put on a mask and storming state capitols with their AR-15s because they think they’ve been denied a 1st amendment right to get a haircut at Sport Clips for a couple months.


I understand your perspective, but because of our fundamental beliefs you and I will never agree.  I fundamentally believe most Americans are smart, hardworking and reasonable and that America is still a great nation despite its many flaws.  Whereas you seem to believe that Americans are undeniably stupid as a whole.  It really leaves no middle ground.

Best of luck and stay safe.


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## paytoplay (Jun 25, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Who solved gun deaths?  Have you talked to anyone from a country with "universal healthcare"?  And so you know, the U.S. already has universal healthcare.  The problem is that not everyone pays into it... only the people with jobs and something to lose.  Your governor is a libtard... I've yet to see him wear a mask, but I guess a "role model" wouldn't bang his best friend's wife, either.


Just for that, Outlaw, you’re out of the club! Loser.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> Just for that, Outlaw, you’re out of the club! Loser.


RUN, Forrest, RRRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Uh, what you posted is not science, it is a meme. Tell me, where are we on each of the lines? How many people are at the top of each of the fakey fake lines on your meme? What are the specific times when each of the lines reach their apex? There is literally nothing quantifiable about this. Your chart is as scientific as a photo of a chimpanzee wearing a mask accompanied by some zinger.


Yes, its a graphic illustration because no one can predict the future, but its being taken seriously by at least some at the highest levels of medicine.  This was given to me by someone who is responsible for over 10,000 employees of a major health care system.  You can turn a blind eye to it, but medical professionals are taking it seriously.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> I'll just post this again since you have Covid tunnel vision (and because you resort to name calling since the facts don't support your narrative).  This is what medical professionals at the highest levels are predicting regarding non-covid impacts vs covid impacts to health.  Clearly the non-covid impacts (due to the interruption of treatment and social isolation etc) are substantially greater than the direct covid impacts.  Your claims regarding mental health issues are not supported by the concerns of actual medical professionals.  Its not with glee that I point out the other negative impacts, I point it out to show we need to consider the bigger picture.  I wish for all health impacts to be considered and for limiting those that are be afflicted with Covid, non-Covid and mental health issues.  It's an incredibly difficult balancing act, but its impossible to balance if you don't even consider the other health issues.  I believe the Covid blanket lockdown was originally done in good faith (despite my belief that a targeted approach would have been significantly more effective) but now its become entirely political and neither the left or Trump can claim innocence.
> 
> View attachment 7901


I learned something new from you today watfly.  That's why I love this message board.  You do have to be careful.  Is it your belief that the more name calling and folks calling people names like idot, dam fool, STFU and many others is more of a sign that what your saying is more true because the truth hurts? I can say when the truth hurts me, I hate it and it and I just confess and do better next time.  Boy, folks can get real dirty and nasty and do much worse than name calling.  Scary time folks but be positive.  This will all soon pass and life will be way better.  Let's stay positive everyone


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> View attachment 7909


By the way even in OC...54% of all cases are 49 and younger. And yet only contribute 6% of all deaths. 

Again it seems that any increase is in the old with serious health issues and or anyone who has serious health issues. 

The at risk are the ones that should be staying away from everything if they are worried.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> Yes, its a graphic illustration because no one can predict the future, but its being taken seriously by at least some at the highest levels of medicine.  This was given to me by someone who is responsible for over 10,000 employees of a major health care system.  You can turn a blind eye to it, but medical professionals are taking it seriously.


Please ask your buddy to quantify a single thing on your meme. Just one please. 

And, yes, we can predict the future. People who believe in science understood that a lot of people were going to die if Americans did not take this as seriously as they should, and that’s what happened. A few soccer parents, anti-vaxxers and the president of the United States believed 15 people had it and it would soon he down to zero. Just because idiots make idiotic predictions does not mean that the future cannot be predicted.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Please ask your buddy to quantify a single thing on your meme. Just one please.
> 
> And, yes, we can predict the future. People who believe in science understood that a lot of people were going to die if Americans did not take this as seriously as they should, and that’s what happened. A few soccer parents, anti-vaxxers and the president of the United States believed 15 people had it and it would soon he down to zero. Just because idiots make idiotic predictions does not mean that the future cannot be predicted.


The President can't stop house parties, riots and Chicago mayors from getting haircuts during a quarantine.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I learned something new from you today watfly.  That's why I love this message board.  You do have to be careful.  Is it your belief that the more name calling and folks calling people names like idot, dam fool, STFU and many others is more of a sign that what your saying is more true because the truth hurts? I can say when the truth hurts me, I hate it and it and I just confess and do better next time.  Boy, folks can get real dirty and nasty and do much worse than name calling.  Scary time folks but be positive.  This will all soon pass and life will be way better.  Let's stay positive everyone


In all fairness some name call out of frustration for not being able to convince the other side of their argument even if their argument is true or reasonable.  Unfortunately, our culture is moving to the emotional argument over the factual one.  How something makes you feel is more important than what actually happened.  Dissenting opinion is so threatening to some that they have to silence it or shout and name call over it.  Yes, this divisiveness is not helping our country (and fighting for my position is likely not helping either...I'll blame it on Covid ).  It seems were losing the middle ground where compromise can occur.  It doesn't help when the far ends of each spectrum are trying to control the narrative when most of the population is just a little bit left or right of center.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> then go back and read the earlier posts.
> 
> You keep talking about infectious disease as a libertarian issue of individual rights.  People keep pointing out that your actions affect the health of other people.  You keep ignoring them and repeating your personal liberty argument.
> 
> ...


You've dodged the point for a second time...so, I'll take that as yes, you have a steady income...thus, a completely different perspective, making my point.

No response necessary, I'm board with it. I'm out.


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## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

This sports writer believes no fall sports.  I'm not there yet but am beginning to suspect its true particularly since the mask requirement was handed down and since at least in blue state public schools we seem to be headed towards 2 days live/2 days off schooling.  Have to see how the 4th of July plays out before I make a prediction.









						Out of bounds | The Acorn
					

We didn't listen. All we had to do was continue to wear masks, wash our hands with warm water and soap, and maintain social distances in public. But we didn't listen. Welcome to the second w




					www.theacorn.com


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Please ask your buddy to quantify a single thing on your meme. Just one please.
> 
> And, yes, we can predict the future. People who believe in science understood that a lot of people were going to die if Americans did not take this as seriously as they should, and that’s what happened. A few soccer parents, anti-vaxxers and the president of the United States believed 15 people had it and it would soon he down to zero. Just because idiots make idiotic predictions does not mean that the future cannot be predicted.


Agree, but you make predictions sound easier than they are.

Predicting the course of disease is wicked hard.  NY made a horrible decision with nursing homes, in part driven by a bad prediction made by the best available people using the best available data.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> This sports writer believes no fall sports.  I'm not there yet but am beginning to suspect its true particularly since the mask requirement was handed down and since at least in blue state public schools we seem to be headed towards 2 days live/2 days off schooling.  Have to see how the 4th of July plays out before I make a prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All my contacts on the inside say the same thing.  It is what it is and were here and we need to obey and that's that.  I'm good with it I guess.  Middle is where I stay and live.  I also said this would happen.  A spike in cases because of more testing, thousands and thousand protesting everyday for weeks and even more and more and more protesting.  I didn;t see people wearing lot's of masks either but it's all of our fault who obeyed, stayed home and watch our economy tumble before our very eyes on TV.  Wow wow wow!!!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I think he’s asking all of us to violate state and county health regulations, all at once.
> 
> It kind of assumes the government will sit still and do nothing while the ICUs get overloaded.  Seems more likely that they’ll shut it all down if hospitals get swamped.


Yes, let’s ask for a sanctuary state on the shutdown or do Americans not have the right to break laws like illegal invaders do?


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Its funny that you would list entire countries like Germany and Singapore but then say California to fit your narrative.  The U.S. as a country does have about a 90% decrease for daily deaths from its high of over 2,000.  Back when we were counting duplicate numbers, gun shot murders, and drug overdoses as part of the total COVID related deaths.


I would guess it depends on who is doing the counting.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

timbuck said:


> What about some of those old ass coaches?  And the really overweight ones?
> (The sidelines are littered with old men on 2xl tracksuits)


I would say if they are old and fat they are doing just fine.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> 1-America does not respond well to public health crises and problems that other advanced countries have already solved (gun deaths, universal health care).
> 
> 2-Leadership is willfully incompetent. We have poor role models. Trump could wear a mask, but unfortunately he’s a psychopath.
> 
> 3-Soccer gossip, trashing clubs, refs, coaches is more rewarding than politics.


How about this for middle ground, I have to say I agree with you conceptually.  In terms of point 1, in part ,because of our many freedoms, the country was not well prepared for the pandemic.  I hope on a bi-partisan basis our politicians will look back on this and design a response system that can effectively fight the virus while protecting our freedoms within reason....not holding my breath.

Point 2.  At so many levels this is true.  Like I mentioned before, I thought the response started out OK, but then ideologies took over. (while I'd guess you and I might disagree on the start, I believe you have a reasonable basis for thinking the start was poorly handled). I'm thankful that I don't live in NY and thankful that SD County leaders have done a pretty good job.

Point 3. 100%.  I hope we get back to this soon.


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## Desert Hound (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> This sports writer believes no fall sports.  I'm not there yet but am beginning to suspect its true particularly since the mask requirement was handed down and since at least in blue state public schools we seem to be headed towards 2 days live/2 days off schooling.  Have to see how the 4th of July plays out before I make a prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is the thing about these guys.

"Novak Djokovic, one of the best tennis players in the world, tested positive for the coronavirus. Von Miller of the Denver Broncos had it. Kevin Durant got it. Hundreds of college athletes still have it."

The above quote is true. Now lets look at how many have died? HMMM? 

That is the issue. The vast majority of people exposed and get it, at worst get symptoms like the flu. 

At some point we have to deal with that reality and go back to work and not shut down schools, restaurants, etc every time someone tests positive...because people will always be testing positive. 

That said the author is likely right about sports because our governments, school boards, etc. work on the risk averse mindset for anything.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

You SoCal folks crack me up... worried about Covid.  At any given time, when I'm down there navigating freeways, I go from 0 to 70 in 6 seconds, slam on my breaks, go 0 to 70 in 6 seconds, slam on my breaks.  Holy shit... I nearly die 7 times for every mile I drive.  You guys can't possibly be afraid of the Kung Flu.


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## MacDre (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> I'll just add to the points already made.  It's easy for club soccer parents who typically have, comparatively speaking, a more stable financial and home situation, to say just stay at home, etc.  However, the lockdown and social isolation negatively impacts the underprivileged and disadvantaged children disproportionally more than our kids.  This upcoming school year is likely to be a disaster for many of the underprivileged kids.  I hate the word "new normal", particularly as it relates to education.  The "new normal" will result in substandard education because there is no replacement for in-person, interactive learning.  Once the "new normal" is implemented this fall its likely never to change back to traditional learning, because that's just how our government works.  The underprivileged have not been well served by our educational community in many cases, and this will only cause them to fall farther and farther behind.  Although, these kids aren't likely playing club sports, they need some sort of sport or exercise as an outlet.  PE in a lot of schools is being banned.  Those that are physically in school will be tethered to their desks for the entire school day.  It's sad to punish children in the name of a virus that has little to no impact on them.
> 
> On an entirely different note, a shout out to GraceT who months ago predicted that because of the early shutdown in California that Covid cases would be drawn out and smolder over a long period of time.  Logic prevails.


I find your analysis dishonest and manipulative.  Sir, classism and racism segregate and isolate the disenfranchised.  The disenfranchised kids were stuck at home prior to Covid.  The privileged kids are the ones having to acclimate to isolation not the disenfranchised.  Have you heard the term “latchkey kid?”  You didn’t give a fuck about the disenfranchised 6 months ago, why do you care now?
Well, I don’t think you care.  I think you just want what you want and nothing else matters and I’m okay with that.  Just keep the disenfranchised out of your weak ass analysis and I’ll fall back.  Yeah, keep the po’ folk up out ya mouth patna because ya don’t know what ya talking ‘bout and it’s obvious.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I find your analysis dishonest and manipulative.  Sir, classism and racism segregate and isolate the disenfranchised.  The disenfranchised kids were stuck at home prior to Covid.  The privileged kids are the ones having to acclimate to isolation not the disenfranchised.  Have you heard the term “latchkey kid?”  You didn’t give a fuck about the disenfranchised 6 months ago, why do you care now?
> Well, I don’t think you care.  I think you just want what you want and nothing else matters and I’m okay with that.  Just keep the disenfranchised out of your weak ass analysis and I’ll fall back.  Yeah, keep the po’ folk up out ya mouth patna because ya don’t know what ya talking ‘bout and it’s obvious.


Our Governor just said today that another quarantine could be in the works if deaths and ICU numbers continue to climb.   Time for another great depression if that happens.  Everyone just wear a damn mask. It's not that difficult.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You SoCal folks crack me up... worried about Covid.  At any given time, when I'm down there navigating freeways, I go from 0 to 70 in 6 seconds, slam on my breaks, go 0 to 70 in 6 seconds, slam on my breaks.  Holy shit... I nearly die 7 times for every mile I drive.  You guys can't possibly be afraid of the Kung Flu.


Alright... "brakes".  Didn't want Ebola or Husky Pu circle jerking over my misspelling.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> In all fairness some name call out of frustration for not being able to convince the other side of their argument even if their argument is true or reasonable.  Unfortunately, our culture is moving to the emotional argument over the factual one.  How something makes you feel is more important than what actually happened.  Dissenting opinion is so threatening to some that they have to silence it or shout and name call over it.  Yes, this divisiveness is not helping our country (and fighting for my position is likely not helping either...I'll blame it on Covid ).  It seems were losing the middle ground where compromise can occur.  It doesn't help when the far ends of each spectrum are trying to control the narrative when most of the population is just a little bit left or right of center.


Lovely. You accuse people of being gleeful that people are dying and then pretend you’re on the high road when others use your name calling tactic against you. Even better that you claim those who actually come to to the debate with facts and science are the ones without them, when you still haven’t provided a single fact or number. This is the “I’m just asking questions” ploy intended to hurt the credibility of the person who actually has the answers. You’re trying to paint them (me in this case) as being a big meany, in the hope that maybe people will forget that this particular debate started with you accusing people of being gleeful about people dying. You are correct that I am a big meany, but incorrect that it’s a legitimate reason to ignore facts.

Also, there is no “middle ground” or “compromise” as to facts and science (aka the truth) on one side, and nonsense on the other. This particular debate is commonly known as bothsides-ism. It is the argument that white supremacists make to justify and garner support for at least some of their racism. It is the argument religious folk make to support the notion that “faith” constitutes a legitimate reason to deny fact. The point is to at least keep the door open to a ridiculously stupid point of view. Like the “I’m just asking questions” ploy, the point of it is to try to paint the person armed with actual facts and science - like the fact that more than 120,000 people are dead and that number is tracking to be over 200,000 before the end of the year -  as being unreasonable simply because they aren’t willing to compromise to a stupid unsupportable position on the other side. Well, the problem with this is that facts are facts. The world is not flat. Vaccines do not cause autism. You cannot be a tiki torch wielding white supremacist and still be a good person. And most important for our purposes, masks significantly limit Covid exposure, as does staying at home whenever possible, and both of those saves lives. Whether you think reopening the economy now is worth the significant number of people who will die because of it does not change the science that a lot of people will die.

For those of you who are in favor of just moving forward and opening up, just admit “yes, I’m ok with a lot more people dying.” I’d actually have some respect for that.  But all this nonsense about how maybe sheltering in place actually kills more than it saves, or wearing masks is a greater health risk than not wearing them and/or doesn’t work, is just self-denial that what you want to happen will kill a lot of people.


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## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

North Texas family shaken after 18 relatives test positive for COVID-19 following family gathering
					

Three were hospitalized, including two elderly family members and one woman battling breast cancer.




					www.kens5.com


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## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

Socal United said:


> I find it unfortunate how people are so torn on this issue.  Copa, Mav, Espola, you guys are honestly a little much on this subject.  The problem is, you guys are ok living in a world of fear.  Staying home for the time really needed is not an option.  We can't do years, which is what would be needed to get done what you would like to get done, to keep this under control.  That is the reality, I know you know you can't dispute that.  This is now part of our lives and that will be the case for years to come.  The idea that the vaccine is going to fix everything is folly.  On the flip side, there are quite a few people on here that are like our president, an ostrich in the sand.  Nothing is ok and it isn't going to be alright.  Our country is an absolute shit show and we have nobody to blame but ourselves.  The reality is, we are not wired to deal with things like this because we are arguably the most idealistically diverse country on this planet.  We can't compare ourselves to other places because they can get their people behind and idea much better that we can.  There is not one single issue that our country could get behind, no matter what it is.  Covid, protests, 100 degrees in Antartica, etc are great examples of that fact.
> 
> As for any of those people that think that what is going on with our country isn't affecting our youth, you are as bad as our President.  I have a 19 and 21 year old home again due to Covid.  We sit down and talk as much as we can but this has been devastating to them.  Last night, we sat down and talked about a myriad of subjects.  The biggest one is suicide.  Both of them were surprisingly open about the conversations that they have had with friends in regard to current life.  "We have what equates to it is going to be ok, don't do anything stupid talks every week or two amongst friends in our group."  That is hard to hear your kids talk about but I appreciate their willingness to talk about it.  What I think hurt me the most was the talk of kids.  I honestly can't wait to have grandkids to spoil, watch play, etc.  I miss that part of my life selfishly more than anything else.  Both of my kids said that they are unsure that they want to bring kids into the world any more given what is going on and where we are going.  That is frightening to hear kids this age say but they are so frustrated with the way people our age are screwing up this country that they are not sure they want the responsibility of raising kids in the direction we are going.  Ouch.  Are they wrong?
> 
> What makes this country great is also part of our demise.  Our individual nature, which I live for, is also what is holding us back in times of crisis.  I hope by some act of God we can turn this around but I am not as hopeful as I would like to be.  Btw, I am an independent so no political backing here one way or the other.  I have voted on both sides as well as the middle once, I prefer to choose who I believe in the most.  This November will be the toughest decision ever, 330 million people and these two are the best we can come up with.  I teach a PoliSci 102 course, we discuss at length what we should do to revamp the system.  The buy in from these 18-20 year olds is outstanding.  There is hope if us older folk can just get out of their way....


My 20,000 posts don’t have as many key strokes as this post.


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## Copa9 (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Then stay home and cower "snowflake"


It seems the people who are "dying" to get out can't handle a little discomfort and have very little patience, the typical "me" generation. They want it all "now". They can't handle physical distancing and face masks.  I just laugh at some of the idiots who post on here.  The typical weak American. I worry more about the lack of fortitude, discipline and resilience of a lot of adults in this country than I do about covid.  Some of the best minds in the world are working on a vaccine and good therapeutics.  Sanofi and GSK, and Sanofi and a smaller biotech firm have two really good vaccines going to trial in Sept.  J & J also have a good vaccine in trials in Aug./Sept. It will happen. But hey, do what you want, as I am sure you are the type that usually does.


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Agree, but you make predictions sound easier than they are.
> 
> Predicting the course of disease is wicked hard.  NY made a horrible decision with nursing homes, in part driven by a bad prediction made by the best available people using the best available data.


Look everyone, I can agree with someone else on occasion!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Lovely. You accuse people of being gleeful that people are dying and then pretend you’re on the high road when others use your name calling tactic against you. Even better that you claim those who actually come to to the debate with facts and science are the ones without them, when you still haven’t provided a single fact or number. This is the “I’m just asking questions” ploy intended to hurt the credibility of the person who actually has the answers. You’re trying to paint them (me in this case) as being a big meany, in the hope that maybe people will forget that this particular debate started with you accusing people of being gleeful about people dying. You are correct that I am a big meany, but incorrect that it’s a legitimate reason to ignore facts.
> 
> Also, there is no “middle ground” or “compromise” as to facts and science (aka the truth) on one side, and nonsense on the other. This particular debate is commonly known as bothsides-ism. It is the argument that white supremacists make to justify and garner support for at least some of their racism. It is the argument religious folk make to support the notion that “faith” constitutes a legitimate reason to deny fact. The point is to at least keep the door open to a ridiculously stupid point of view. Like the “I’m just asking questions” ploy, the point of it is to try to paint the person armed with actual facts and science - like the fact that more than 120,000 people are dead and that number is tracking to be over 200,000 before the end of the year -  as being unreasonable simply because they aren’t willing to compromise to a stupid unsupportable position on the other side. Well, the problem with this is that facts are facts. The world is not flat. Vaccines do not cause autism. You cannot be a tiki torch wielding white supremacist and still be a good person. And most important for our purposes, masks significantly limit Covid exposure, as does staying at home whenever possible, and both of those saves lives. Whether you think reopening the economy now is worth the significant number of people who will die because of it does not change the science that a lot of people will die.
> 
> For those of you who are in favor of just moving forward and opening up, just admit “yes, I’m ok with a lot more people dying.” I’d actually have some respect for that.  But all this nonsense about how maybe sheltering in place actually kills more than it saves, or wearing masks is a greater health risk than not wearing them and/or doesn’t work, is just self-denial that what you want to happen will kill a lot of people.


I bet it were only white police dying it would be ok with you.
Are you ok with the rioters not wearing masks?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> It seems the people who are "dying" to get out can't handle a little discomfort and have very little patience, the typical "me" generation. They want it all "now". They can't handle physical distancing and face masks.  I just laugh at some of the idiots who post on here.  The typical weak American. I worry more about the lack of fortitude, discipline and resilience of a lot of adults in this country than I do about covid.  Some of the best minds in the world are working on a vaccine and good therapeutics.  Sanofi and GSK, and Sanofi and a smaller biotech firm have two really good vaccines going to trial in Sept.  J & J also have a good vaccine in trials in Aug./Sept. It will happen. But hey, do what you want, as I am sure you are the type that usually does.


Can we still live in Cali and move around without the vaccine?  Very important question for my wifey.  Thanks Dr Copa


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> olders are still higher risk than youngers.  If I we a cluster caused by an outdoor game, I’ll be back to advocating under 10 only.
> 
> Kids only, either way.  No need for a cluster of 45 year olds on the sideline talking to each other.  That’s riskier than the game.


It's really about the adults who miss the socializing.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> It's really about the adults who miss the socializing.


Oh ya, I'm so addicted to the kool aid soccer socializing packets that I want more and more of it.   Watching my dd try hard at something and try and win a team sport with her teammates is a small small % of my addiction.  Social is way more addicting.  I like to sit there and socialize......lol!  That's why I'm still here.......I have nothing else to do.  Copa, I spent thousands upon thousands of dollars for the holy grail and I'm not quitting until I taste from it. I love soccer and it;s more powerful than politics or religion put together.


----------



## Chalklines (Jun 25, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> It's really about the adults who miss the socializing.


and they are the ones who spread. going on out of state vacations and weekend trips to vegas justifying it by the deals they get.......Unfortunately we're not going back anytime soon to play games. 12,000 new cases in 2 days in California. Its the beginning to the end.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Lovely. You accuse people of being gleeful that people are dying and then pretend you’re on the high road when others use your name calling tactic against you. Even better that you claim those who actually come to to the debate with facts and science are the ones without them, when you still haven’t provided a single fact or number. This is the “I’m just asking questions” ploy intended to hurt the credibility of the person who actually has the answers. You’re trying to paint them (me in this case) as being a big meany, in the hope that maybe people will forget that this particular debate started with you accusing people of being gleeful about people dying. You are correct that I am a big meany, but incorrect that it’s a legitimate reason to ignore facts.
> 
> Also, there is no “middle ground” or “compromise” as to facts and science (aka the truth) on one side, and nonsense on the other. This particular debate is commonly known as bothsides-ism. It is the argument that white supremacists make to justify and garner support for at least some of their racism. It is the argument religious folk make to support the notion that “faith” constitutes a legitimate reason to deny fact. The point is to at least keep the door open to a ridiculously stupid point of view. Like the “I’m just asking questions” ploy, the point of it is to try to paint the person armed with actual facts and science - like the fact that more than 120,000 people are dead and that number is tracking to be over 200,000 before the end of the year -  as being unreasonable simply because they aren’t willing to compromise to a stupid unsupportable position on the other side. Well, the problem with this is that facts are facts. The world is not flat. Vaccines do not cause autism. You cannot be a tiki torch wielding white supremacist and still be a good person. And most important for our purposes, masks significantly limit Covid exposure, as does staying at home whenever possible, and both of those saves lives. Whether you think reopening the economy now is worth the significant number of people who will die because of it does not change the science that a lot of people will die.
> 
> For those of you who are in favor of just moving forward and opening up, just admit “yes, I’m ok with a lot more people dying.” I’d actually have some respect for that.  But all this nonsense about how maybe sheltering in place actually kills more than it saves, or wearing masks is a greater health risk than not wearing them and/or doesn’t work, is just self-denial that what you want to happen will kill a lot of people.


Be sure to include protesters when you are talking about breaking quarantine.

Any mass gathering helps spread disease.  It doesn't matter if the flag says "BLM", "save our economy", or "Go Juventus."  Its all the same to the virus.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> So here is @watfly using the same rhetorical device again. When you don’t have facts, or science, or anything on your side, just characterize the person telling you what you don’t want to hear as “gleeful” when people die or “tunnel visioned”.  In other words, just attack the person stating the science-backed position because that’s all you have. Me, on the other hand, I’ve got science on my side AND I’m perfectly happy to make personal attacks right back at those who think that’s a useful debate tactic. Super fun.
> 
> If anyone is tunnel-visioned, it’s the person who doesn’t wear a mask when they go out and won’t stay home unless they need to go out. It’s the people who look at 120,000 dead, know that number may be 200,000 by November, and label people who understand that those are really big and unnecessary numbers as “hysterical”.  But the only people who are hysterical are the whackos going ballistic when Costco or the grocery store won’t let them in unless they put on a mask and storming state capitols with their AR-15s because they think they’ve been denied a 1st amendment right to get a haircut at Sport Clips for a couple months.



I wonder if people are really understanding what a "120,000 deaths" looks like. Imagine a plane carrying 300 passengers crashes over one of our states today, so devastating to the families of those on board.  Scary for us if we have a trip planned to fly somewhere, but we take the risk anyway, it's only one plane.  Now imagine a plane with 300 passengers crashing everyday for the previous "400" days! Or 800 a day since January 20. That is how many have died in our country alone in the last five months from covid! Would you hop on a plane for a trip or maybe wait until the airline industry figures out why all the planes are crashing?  You can still take a trip, drive somewhere, just maybe postpone flying for a while unless it were a life and death situation and you had to fly.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> I bet it were only white police dying it would be ok with you.
> Are you ok with the rioters not wearing masks?


This is whatabout-ism. The point of this tactic is to try to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. None of what this fella is saying has anything to do with the fact that not wearing masks will kill more people, as will ending shelter-in-place restrictions. It has nothing to do with the self-denial of those who want to fully open up that doing so will kill people, other than it is just more self-denial.

But since you really wanna talk about racist pigs, I’ll flatter you. They should also wear masks. Protesters should wear masks. Everyone should wear masks. Everyone should stay home when they can. I’m ok with the non-racist cops continuing to so their job as long as they wear masks and there are important reasons to be out and about.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Be sure to include protesters when you are talking about breaking quarantine.
> 
> Any mass gathering helps spread disease.  It doesn't matter if the flag says "BLM", "save our economy", or "Go Juventus."  Its all the same to the virus.


That is 100% true.  I was at Pikes, CHOPs and Amazon Jan 22nd.  Came home sick as a dog as did my plane.  The virus is hear for the long haul.  Mask, 6 feet and social distancing is a must.  No if and or butts.  Just do it!!!  I'm doing it and I'm doing it with a smile.  No harm no foul, just do it baby!!!  I just ask if I do it and my family does it, you do it too?  And that means you too and that is everyone goes down for two weeks and knock this sucker out before winter.  Let winter come and go on lock down until next year.  Let's do it!!!


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This is whatabout-ism. The point of this tactic is to try to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. None of what this fella is saying has anything to do with the fact that not wearing masks will kill more people, as will ending shelter-in-place restrictions. It has nothing to do with the self-denial of those who want to fully open up that doing so will kill people, other than it is just more self-denial.
> 
> But since you really wanna talk about racist pigs, I’ll flatter you. They should also wear masks. Protesters should wear masks. Everyone should wear masks. Everyone should stay home when they can. I’m ok with the non-racist cops continuing to so their job as long as they wear masks and there are important reasons to be out and about.


Are you ok with cancelling the protests to slow covid?

Or are you ok with covid spreading faster and killing more people?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This is whatabout-ism. The point of this tactic is to try to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. None of what this fella is saying has anything to do with the fact that not wearing masks will kill more people, as will ending shelter-in-place restrictions. It has nothing to do with the self-denial of those who want to fully open up that doing so will kill people, other than it is just more self-denial.
> 
> But since you really wanna talk about racist pigs, I’ll flatter you. They should also wear masks. Protesters should wear masks. Everyone should wear masks. Everyone should stay home when they can. I’m ok with the non-racist cops continuing to so their job as long as they wear masks and there are important reasons to be out and about.


Which cops were racist?


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## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Be sure to include protesters when you are talking about breaking quarantine.
> 
> Any mass gathering helps spread disease.  It doesn't matter if the flag says "BLM", "save our economy", or "Go Juventus."  Its all the same to the virus.


Here we have a legitimate debate issue, maybe. Specifically, where do you draw the line with respect to going out?  I’m ok with going out to protest racial inequality and police abuse. I think that’s an important enough reason under the circumstances to justify the number of additional people who will probably die as a result, and probably not stoppable anyway. Going to Applebees for dinner, not so much. The president holding a rally in Tulsa to soothe his fragile ego, also no, that’s terrible leadership. It’s one thing to tolerate a mass gathering, but another for our leaders to cause it because they have low self-esteem.


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 25, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> It's really about the adults who miss the socializing.


No it’s about having teenagers who need a sense of normalcy in their lives.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Which cops were racist?


I don’t think this one even rises to the level of a debate tactic. Just a racist douche doing what racist douches do.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Here we have a legitimate debate issue, maybe. Specifically, where do you draw the line with respect to going out?  I’m ok with going out to protest racial inequality and police abuse. I think that’s an important enough reason under the circumstances to justify the number of additional people who will probably die as a result, and probably not stoppable anyway. Going to Applebees for dinner, not so much. The president holding a rally in Tulsa to soothe his fragile ego, also no, that’s terrible leadership. It’s one thing to tolerate a mass gathering, but another for our leaders to cause it because they have low self-esteem.


Too bad that's a made up concept.  If you want to support black lives, stop being a pussy and acknowledge that blacks murder each other 7 times per day, every day of the year, and less than 10% of black lives lost were at the hands of a police officer. 

Or you just going to keep being a lying pussy?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I don’t think this one even rises to the level of a debate tactic. Just a racist douche doing what racist douches do.


I know... because you're full of shit and don't have any facts.  

Tell me which tactic THIS is that you're using to run from your bullshit argument?


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL (and anyone else)  I'll extend an olive branch even though I'm apparently a white supremacist because I use whatabout-ism.   I know I said we can't find middle ground but maybe we can we agree to the following.  Don't have to agree 100% but at least its primarily true in your mind and we don't have to agree on the extremes of the issue.  

-We love to watch our kids play soccer
-The youth soccer landscape is not perfect and could be approved
-Our US soccer federation has made some missteps
-Masks should be worn in public when social distancing isn't possible
-Cancer treatments shouldn't be delayed because of Covid (not saying that it is or is not happening)
-There is a racial divide in this country that needs to be addressed
-It would be better if Trump stopped tweeting


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## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)




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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> EOTL (and anyone else)  I'll extend an olive branch even though I'm apparently a white supremacist because I use whatabout-ism.   I know I said we can't find middle ground but maybe we can we agree to the following.  Don't have to agree 100% but at least its primarily true in your mind and we don't have to agree on the extremes of the issue.
> 
> -We love to watch our kids play soccer
> -The youth soccer landscape is not perfect and could be approved
> ...


All terrific points... but let's cut to the chase.  The "racial divide" in this country won't ever end until black people accept some accountability and stop blaming everyone else for their issues.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> All terrific points... but let's cut to the chase.  The "racial divide" in this country won't ever end until black people accept some accountability and stop blaming everyone else for their issues.


That's not where I wanted this to go, but suit yourself.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> That's not where I wanted this to go, but suit yourself.


I get that... and I acknowledge and praised your post.  I didn't want it to go there, either, but I'm tired of tap dancing around the truth and hearing the bullshit about bad white cops when every black man killed by them was a lifelong criminal, hood rat.  If you make heroes out of hood rats, there's nowhere to go.  I, unlike the perpetual victims, AM interested in saving black lives... not exploiting them.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> For those of you who are in favor of just moving forward and opening up, just admit “yes, I’m ok with a lot more people dying.” I’d actually have some respect for that.  But all this nonsense about how maybe sheltering in place actually kills more than it saves, or wearing masks is a greater health risk than not wearing them and/or doesn’t work, is just self-denial that what you want to happen will kill a lot of people.


Or it could be the waves are mathematically rigid and we are going to lose a certain number of people no matter what we do (unless we lockdown entirely until spring 2021 for a vaccine [at least as far as Fauci says] because the lockdowns just push waves back in time, and that's assuming the vaccine even works). 

I'd like people advocating perpetual lockdowns to admit that there are real costs on the other side of the ledger and they don't care if people have to suffer those costs.  The lockdowns did cost people's lives in suicides, OD and abuse and delayed hospitalizations (whether people scared to go outside for emergency room visits due to heart attack, or cancer screenings which are going to be picked up too late).  It's probably not as much as people who died directly from COVID.  There was also untold economic damage which cost people their livelihood and businesses which were built up over their lives.  It was also mental torment to some group of people, particularly high es, and particularly children, and the riots were no doubt a reaction in part to being locked down.  The lockdowns cost children their education, led to greater education inequality, and if it continues for over 1 year could lead to a huge setback for many children.  I wish people on the lockdown forever side would just say we don't care if you have a problem with your cancer, if we torment a child, or if you lose your business built over a lifetime.  These decisions on both sides can be very cold harded, and are even more hard to justify if we make exceptions for "really important stuff" like protests, political rallies or haircuts for politicians.  I also agree that masks are necessary but let's not kid ourselves there isn't a cost there too.  If there wasn't there wouldn't be an issue for people wearing them as we saw in even the House committee hearings yesterday.


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## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

Back to the original topic of Time to Play, I just saw that Albion has now scheduled its showcase on August 1-2.  While I hope the Albion and Surf tournaments happen then, I just don't see it being allowed given the current conditions.


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Here we have a legitimate debate issue, maybe. Specifically, where do you draw the line with respect to going out?  I’m ok with going out to protest racial inequality and police abuse. I think that’s an important enough reason under the circumstances to justify the number of additional people who will probably die as a result, and probably not stoppable anyway. Going to Applebees for dinner, not so much. The president holding a rally in Tulsa to soothe his fragile ego, also no, that’s terrible leadership. It’s one thing to tolerate a mass gathering, but another for our leaders to cause it because they have low self-esteem.


The virus doesn’t care about your cause, or my cause.

If it is stupid to hold a mass gathering, then it is stupid to hold a mass gathering.   

Otherwise you are deep onto that self-denial territory you mentioned.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

Unless you have stayed at home the whole time, you probably already know and came into contact with someone that is infected and they just don't realize it.   The good news is divide the death percentages by 10.

"CDC Director Robert Redfield on Thursday said the number of coronavirus infections in the U.S. could be 10 times higher than the confirmed case count — meaning a total of more than 20 million.  "Our best estimate right now is for every case reported there were actually 10 other infections,” Redfield said during a call with reporters, referencing data from antibody tests that show who has been exposed to the virus. ""









						CDC chief: Covid-19 infections could be 10 times higher than confirmed cases
					

The CDC on Thursday removed a specific age threshold on its guidance for who is at high risk of contracting the virus and now says risk increases steadily with age among adults.




					www.politico.com


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## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up. I don't want to hear any bullshit that the numbers aren't accurate, are inflated, or my personal favorite- the hospitals are part of the deep state and only in for a profit. Don't use that argument unless you can prove it with hard facts. Its absurd

It also pisses me off when people say this whole situation is a ploy by the governor or other politicians for a political agenda. NOBODY wants to see people lose their lives and jobs. Nobody is that evil except maybe Hitler. The government is trying to remedy this absolute mess with our livelihoods being first priority. Whether you want to believe it or not. 

And, as much as we all want to we cannot just isolate the at risk and everyone carries on as normal. It just won't work. Do relatives of these people have to move out? How will the at risk eat? Where will they sleep? Not to mention the countless stories of perfectly healthy young people who got very I'll or died.

And NO, you soccer parents do not know more than the medical experts and professionals, as much as you think you do. Next time you say Fauci doesn't know anything, please state where your medical degree is from.

And don't tell me I can just hide in my house and you will go on with life. I will tell you to wear a fucking mask, stay six feet apart, and for God's sake don't have a fucking dinner party in your house. Your whiny, selfish, privileged ass can handle it for a few more months for the sake of fellow humans. The countries that have been successful have done all of these things. 

I've said this before and I will say it again - PEOPLE DENY OUT OF FEAR. They are scared of what's happening (as they should be) so it's easier to believe it really isn't that bad


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> *We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid*. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up. I don't want to hear any bullshit that the numbers aren't accurate, are inflated, or my personal favorite- the hospitals are part of the deep state and only in for a profit. Don't use that argument unless you can prove it with hard facts. Its absurd
> 
> It also pisses me off when people say this whole situation is a ploy by the governor or other politicians for a political agenda. NOBODY wants to see people lose their lives and jobs. Nobody is that evil except maybe Hitler. The government is trying to remedy this absolute mess with our livelihoods being first priority. Whether you want to believe it or not.
> 
> ...


I can;t read past that line in bold.  That is 100% not a true statement, would you agree gk mom?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up. I don't want to hear any bullshit that the numbers aren't accurate, are inflated, or my personal favorite- the hospitals are part of the deep state and only in for a profit. Don't use that argument unless you can prove it with hard facts. Its absurd
> 
> It also pisses me off when people say this whole situation is a ploy by the governor or other politicians for a political agenda. NOBODY wants to see people lose their lives and jobs. Nobody is that evil except maybe Hitler. The government is trying to remedy this absolute mess with our livelihoods being first priority. Whether you want to believe it or not.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ.









						Bill Maher roots for recession so that Trump loses in 2020
					

Comedian Bill Maher on Friday said he "really" wished there was another economic recession, arguing such an event would ruin President Trump's chances of winning reelection.




					thehill.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 25, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I get that... and I acknowledge and praised your post.  I didn't want it to go there, either, but I'm tired of tap dancing around the truth and hearing the bullshit about bad white cops when every black man killed by them was a lifelong criminal, hood rat.  If you make heroes out of hood rats, there's nowhere to go.  I, unlike the perpetual victims, AM interested in saving black lives... not exploiting them.


You forgot the boot licking uncle tom’s.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I can;t read past that line in bold.  That is 100% not a true statement, would you agree gk mom?


If you read past that line you would see that I said if you came back with that argument to back it up with hard facts


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Or it could be the waves are mathematically rigid and we are going to lose a certain number of people no matter what we do (unless we lockdown entirely until spring 2021 for a vaccine [at least as far as Fauci says] because the lockdowns just push waves back in time, and that's assuming the vaccine even works).


I think this is the point the anti-openers miss. 

For how long are we willing to be shut down or limited in our activities? 

You can pretty much bet that anytime we re-open, cases are going to jump. It is not like the virus will magically disappear. So yes you will get a jump in cases as towns, states, etc start to open up. 

And when that jump happens, people will argue well we need to shut it down again. All this does is hurt biz, education, etc and prolong the whole mess. And then what...shut down for a bit...then reopen...see a jump in cases and shut down or restrict again? That is essentially the argument many here and elsewhere seem to be making. 

It is a fascinating argument to hear people essentially say change everything now in the HOPES that one day in the future we come up with a vaccine. That vaccine may never come, or it may come in a year or two.

The overall death rate for the flu is approximately .1%. We don't freak out about that. Covid according to the CDC is approximately .25%. 

So apparently 1 death out 1k  (infection fatality rate) for the flu is not ever a worry for anyone here (we don't even think about it) but 2.5 deaths per 1k suddenly people want to shut the barn doors. Right? With one nothing changes. With covid however now a lot of people say we may have to sit around for months or a year or longer severely restricting life.

All on the premise that one day we MAY have a vaccine.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I can;t read past that line in bold.  That is 100% not a true statement, would you agree gk mom?


Nope.  It is true.  Most experts have consistently said that the estimates are low, not high.

There are instances of over count, and instances of undercount.  But, among those with degrees in epidemiology, the consensus us that we are over 120,000.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> If you read past that line you would see that I said if you came back with that argument to back it up with hard facts


I already have on numerous occassions and so has Kicker.  Stroke and brain dead and then catches the virus at hospital already brain dead.  Do you understand that death is in the 120,000.  No?


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## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> You forgot the boot licking uncle tom’s.


Why uncle tom again?  Are you going to call someone oreo next?

We dont need a racial loyalty test.  Our ancestors used it, and it did not help.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> You forgot the boot licking uncle tom’s.


Well, if you're a bad boy and don't want to follow the rules, you wave your right to post 4th grade cap and gown photos when the bad boy dies.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I already have on numerous occassions and so has Kicker.  Stroke and brain dead and then catches the virus already brain dead.  Do you understand that death is in the 120,000.  No?


Yes,I understand the death rate is in the 120,000's. That's exactly what I said. Unless I miread your statement


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Or it could be the waves are mathematically rigid and we are going to lose a certain number of people no matter what we do (unless we lockdown entirely until spring 2021 for a vaccine [at least as far as Fauci says] because the lockdowns just push waves back in time, and that's assuming the vaccine even works).
> 
> I'd like people advocating perpetual lockdowns to admit that there are real costs on the other side of the ledger and they don't care if people have to suffer those costs.  The lockdowns did cost people's lives in suicides, OD and abuse and delayed hospitalizations (whether people scared to go outside for emergency room visits due to heart attack, or cancer screenings which are going to be picked up too late).  It's probably not as much as people who died directly from COVID.  There was also untold economic damage which cost people their livelihood and businesses which were built up over their lives.  It was also mental torment to some group of people, particularly high es, and particularly children, and the riots were no doubt a reaction in part to being locked down.  The lockdowns cost children their education, led to greater education inequality, and if it continues for over 1 year could lead to a huge setback for many children.  I wish people on the lockdown forever side would just say we don't care if you have a problem with your cancer, if we torment a child, or if you lose your business built over a lifetime.  These decisions on both sides can be very cold harded, and are even more hard to justify if we make exceptions for "really important stuff" like protests, political rallies or haircuts for politicians.  I also agree that masks are necessary but let's not kid ourselves there isn't a cost there too.  If there wasn't there wouldn't be an issue for people wearing them as we saw in even the House committee hearings yesterday.


Paragraph 2 starts with what is known as the strawman argument. No one has advocated for a “perpetual lockdown.” This person then supplements her strawman with the emotional appeal technique, which is a good one when you still don’t have facts. To really drive home the emotional appeal argument, next time I recommend adding an anecdotal story about a fictional child named Bobby who couldn’t get his cancer treatment due to covid hysteria, was beaten in the home by his laid off father who fell into drinking and depression, and ultimately took his own life after the physical and emotional toll just became too much. Just keep in mind, though, I’ve got like a sh*t ton of sad dead grandma and parent-left-their-child-orphaned stories.

No one disputes Covid sucks. No one disputes it has taken a huge financial and emotional toll. But it also cannot reasonably be disputed that shelter-in-place has saved far more than it has killed. It can’t be disputed that if we just had fewer dumb Americans refusing to wear masks and recklessly going out, we would be much further along in our economy and getting people back to work instead of beating their wives and children indefinitely. The best you can do there is go back to “I’m just asking questions”, but I’ve already discussed why that’s stupid. 120,000 people have died. It will likely be more than 200,000 by the end of the year. Maybe 20,000 will die from domestic violence during that same period in the entire world, very few of which will be due to covid. Maybe 30,000 total suicides in the US, only a small percentage due to covid. Although a small number relatively speaking, those deaths will continue relentlessly along with the direct covid deaths until the really hard core science that we’re relying on (vaccines) saves us from the really simple and basic science that even a dotard should be able to understand but too many choose to disbelieve or disregard because they want a haircut.

Why is it so hard for anyone to say “Yes I’m ok with a lot of people dying for the sake of the economy and my own wallet.” Is it because ya’ll are religious and think god will strike you down if you admit to yourself what you’re asking for? Carry on with getting back to movie theaters and youth soccer tournaments. Do it for Bobby!


----------



## MacDre (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Or it could be the waves are mathematically rigid and we are going to lose a certain number of people no matter what we do (unless we lockdown entirely until spring 2021 for a vaccine [at least as far as Fauci says] because the lockdowns just push waves back in time, and that's assuming the vaccine even works).
> 
> I'd like people advocating perpetual lockdowns to admit that there are real costs on the other side of the ledger and they don't care if people have to suffer those costs.  The lockdowns did cost people's lives in suicides, OD and abuse and delayed hospitalizations (whether people scared to go outside for emergency room visits due to heart attack, or cancer screenings which are going to be picked up too late).  It's probably not as much as people who died directly from COVID.  There was also untold economic damage which cost people their livelihood and businesses which were built up over their lives.  It was also mental torment to some group of people, particularly high es, and particularly children, and the riots were no doubt a reaction in part to being locked down.  The lockdowns cost children their education, led to greater education inequality, and if it continues for over 1 year could lead to a huge setback for many children.  I wish people on the lockdown forever side would just say we don't care if you have a problem with your cancer, if we torment a child, or if you lose your business built over a lifetime.  These decisions on both sides can be very cold harded, and are even more hard to justify if we make exceptions for "really important stuff" like protests, political rallies or haircuts for politicians.  I also agree that masks are necessary but let's not kid ourselves there isn't a cost there too.  If there wasn't there wouldn't be an issue for people wearing them as we saw in even the House committee hearings yesterday.


This garbage was hard to read because it’s primarily speculation and conjecture.  I guess your an advocate for the education of disenfranchised youth now?  Are you aware that the disenfranchised didn’t have access to quality education prior to Covid?  Doesn’t “good school” typically mean the absence of disenfranchised youth?  Why are you all of a sudden concerned about disenfranchised youth?  Are you attempting to exploit the suffering of disenfranchised youth to promote your agenda? 

Funny you mention cancer treatment because my father in law had surgery in Florida last week.  He also spent 3 days in the ICU post surgery.  He also has chemo and radiation scheduled for the first week of July.  My wife, who just received teacher of the year award at UCSF says hospitals throughout CA are laying people off because no one is coming in for treatment.  I believe UCSF recently started a marketing campaign encouraging folks to come to the hospital for treatment.  So facts, not fear please.

I do agree that it sucks to be an owner or employee of a small business now.  But hell, my physician wife is looking at reduced hours because folks aren’t coming to the hospital for treatment.  So, my family is getting squeezed too...but do you here me complaining?  I’m happy I’m still alive.  Count your blessings and stop complaining!


----------



## soccer4us (Jun 25, 2020)

NCAA in person recruiting ban extended to 8/31. Bye Bye Surf cup....well at least for many teams.


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I can;t read past that line in bold.  That is 100% not a true statement, would you agree gk mom?


While I can't prove if the the real number is higher or lower than 122,000, its incredibly misleading to call them deaths caused by Covid.  It is actually the number of people who were confirmed Covid positive when they died. 

Per Illinois Health Director:
_If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death._

Washington state also confirmed that they were counting every person who has died if Covid positive, even gunshot victims.  Interestingly they said that those that died covid positive but not covid caused will eventually be removed from the count but its an 18 month process to identify those deaths.  Which is awesome because now I can use the "lag time" argument!

In all fairness, there could be some potential reasons why numbers may be understated.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> This garbage was hard to read because it’s primarily speculation and conjecture.  I guess your an advocate for the education of disenfranchised youth now?  Are you aware that the disenfranchised didn’t have access to quality education prior to Covid?  Doesn’t “good school” typically mean the absence of disenfranchised youth?  Why are you all of a sudden concerned about disenfranchised youth?  Are you attempting to exploit the suffering of disenfranchised youth to promote your agenda?
> 
> Funny you mention cancer treatment because my father in law had surgery in Florida last week.  He also spent 3 days in the ICU post surgery.  He also has chemo and radiation scheduled for the first week of July.  My wife, who just received teacher of the year award at UCSF says hospitals throughout CA are laying people off because no one is coming in for treatment.  I believe UCSF recently started a marketing campaign encouraging folks to come to the hospital for treatment.  So facts, not fear please.
> 
> I do agree that it sucks to be an owner or employee of a small business now.  But hell, my physician wife is looking at reduced hours because folks aren’t coming to the hospital for treatment.  So, my family is getting squeezed too...but do you here me complaining?  I’m happy I’m still alive.  Count your blessings and stop complaining!


Maybe the "disenfranchised" kid didn't get a quality education because of his upbringing and behavior.  Can we blame a white cop for that, Dre?


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

The head of the CDC today just said 20-25 million people have or had the virus in the US.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up


Trending up???


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> The virus doesn’t care about your cause, or my cause.
> 
> If it is stupid to hold a mass gathering, then it is stupid to hold a mass gathering.
> 
> Otherwise you are deep onto that self-denial territory you mentioned.


“It is stupid to hold a mass gathering”, well that is truncated passive voice. Truncated passive voice is commonly used when you’re trying to obscure who did what. This allows the person to avoid addressing who is responsible for the action, although that’s a really important point here. Specifically, with the Tulsa rally we knew that Trump held the mass gathering. Trump decided to do it, he was responsible for it, it is his fault. A single person could have easily avoided that stupid and dangerous mass gathering.

With the protests, on the other hand, there isn’t a single person or small group responsible for making it happen. “It might be stupid” to protest but, unlike the Tulsa rally, there just isn’t a way to stop them from occurring. There are too many individual people making individual decisions in too many places. And as everyone should be aware, the more beating on protesters, the more tear gas, the more individual decisions to protest you’re going to get. To the extent you’re saying it was stupid to have mass protests, you may as well be saying it’s stupid for the sun to go around so slowly because its getting pretty hot. With Tulsa, on the other hand, a dumb mass gathering could have been easily avoided by a single dumbf**k. And although he tries to paint himself like the sun, the only thing inevitable about Trump is that he’s gonna need his Depends at least as much tomorrow as he does today.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I find your analysis dishonest and manipulative.  Sir, classism and racism segregate and isolate the disenfranchised.  The disenfranchised kids were stuck at home prior to Covid.  The privileged kids are the ones having to acclimate to isolation not the disenfranchised.  Have you heard the term “latchkey kid?”  You didn’t give a fuck about the disenfranchised 6 months ago, why do you care now?
> Well, I don’t think you care.  I think you just want what you want and nothing else matters and I’m okay with that.  Just keep the disenfranchised out of your weak ass analysis and I’ll fall back.  Yeah, keep the po’ folk up out ya mouth patna because ya don’t know what ya talking ‘bout and it’s obvious.


Spare us the victim BS... it's stale and tiresome. Thanks.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Trending up???
> 
> View attachment 7912


Yes, more deaths. The CDC predicts 130-150k by July 18th 








						Cases, Data, and Surveillance
					

Cases, data, and surveillance to track and analyze COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> “It is stupid to hold a mass gathering”, well that is truncated passive voice. Truncated passive voice is commonly used when you’re trying to obscure who did what. This allows the person to avoid addressing who is responsible for the action, although that’s a really important point here. Specifically, with the Tulsa rally we knew that Trump held the mass gathering. Trump decided to do it, he was responsible for it, it is his fault. A single person could have easily avoided that stupid and dangerous mass gathering.
> 
> With the protests, on the other hand, there isn’t a single person or small group responsible for making it happen. “It might be stupid” to protest but, unlike the Tulsa rally, there just isn’t a way to stop them from occurring. There are too many individual people making individual decisions in too many places. And as everyone should be aware, the more beating on protesters, the more tear gas, the more individual decisions to protest you’re going to get. To the extent you’re saying it was stupid to have mass protests, you may as well be saying it’s stupid for the sun to go around so slowly because its getting pretty hot. With Tulsa, on the other hand, a dumb mass gathering could have been easily avoided by a single dumbf**k. And although he tries to paint himself like the sun, the only thing inevitable about Trump is that he’s gonna need his Depends at least as much tomorrow as he does today.


Just curious, are you a university professor?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Here we have a legitimate debate issue, maybe. Specifically, where do you draw the line with respect to going out?  I’m ok with going out to protest racial inequality and police abuse. I think that’s an important enough reason under the circumstances to justify the number of additional people who will probably die as a result, and probably not stoppable anyway. Going to Applebees for dinner, not so much. The president holding a rally in Tulsa to soothe his fragile ego, also no, that’s terrible leadership. It’s one thing to tolerate a mass gathering, but another for our leaders to cause it because they have low self-esteem.


and not say anything to all of the people not wearing a mask or at least encouraging them to put a mask on is incomprehensible.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> “It is stupid to hold a mass gathering”, well that is truncated passive voice. Truncated passive voice is commonly used when you’re trying to obscure who did what. This allows the person to avoid addressing who is responsible for the action, although that’s a really important point here. Specifically, with the Tulsa rally we knew that Trump held the mass gathering. Trump decided to do it, he was responsible for it, it is his fault. A single person could have easily avoided that stupid and dangerous mass gathering.
> 
> With the protests, on the other hand, there isn’t a single person or small group responsible for making it happen. “It might be stupid” to protest but, unlike the Tulsa rally, there just isn’t a way to stop them from occurring. There are too many individual people making individual decisions in too many places. And as everyone should be aware, the more beating on protesters, the more tear gas, the more individual decisions to protest you’re going to get. To the extent you’re saying it was stupid to have mass protests, you may as well be saying it’s stupid for the sun to go around so slowly because its getting pretty hot. With Tulsa, on the other hand, a dumb mass gathering could have been easily avoided by a single dumbf**k. And although he tries to paint himself like the sun, the only thing inevitable about Trump is that he’s gonna need his Depends at least as much tomorrow as he does today.


I can think of several protests and riots that could have been avoided by a single dumbfuck not being a criminal resisting arrest.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> “It is stupid to hold a mass gathering”, well that is truncated passive voice. Truncated passive voice is commonly used when you’re trying to obscure who did what. This allows the person to avoid addressing who is responsible for the action, although that’s a really important point here. Specifically, with the Tulsa we knew that Trump held the mass gathering. Trump decided to do it, he was responsible for it, it is his fault. A single person could have easily avoided that stupid and dangerous mass gathering.
> 
> With the protests, on the other hand, there isn’t a single person or small group responsible for making it happen. “It might be stupid” to protest but, unlike the Tulsa rally, there just isn’t a way to stop them from occurring. There are too many individual people making individual decisions in too many places. And as everyone should be aware, the more beating on protesters, the more tear gas, the more individual decisions to protest you’re going to get. To the extent you’re saying it was stupid to have mass protests, you may as well be saying its stupid for the sun to go around so slowly because its getting pretty hot. With Tulsa, on the other hand, a dumb mass gathering could have been easily avoided by a single dumbf**k. And although he tries to paint himself like the sun, the only thing inevitable about Trump is that he’s gonna need his Depends at least as much tomorrow as he does today.


You don‘t like my choice of verb tense.

Fine.  EOTL is stupid for endorsing mass gatherings during a pandemic.   

I eliminated the passive.  Are you happy?

Sorry.  Mass gatherings right now are dumb,  I know you think the slogan on your sign is super important.  I may or may not agree, but the virus doesn’t give a rat’s ass for what is on your sign or who organized it.  As long as you and 1000 other people are together and shouting, the virus is spreading.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I don’t think this one even rises to the level of a debate tactic. Just a racist douche doing what racist douches do.


...says the "orange man bad" debate tactician.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up. I don't want to hear any bullshit that the numbers aren't accurate, are inflated, or my personal favorite- the hospitals are part of the deep state and only in for a profit. Don't use that argument unless you can prove it with hard facts. Its absurd
> 
> It also pisses me off when people say this whole situation is a ploy by the governor or other politicians for a political agenda. NOBODY wants to see people lose their lives and jobs. Nobody is that evil except maybe Hitler. The government is trying to remedy this absolute mess with our livelihoods being first priority. Whether you want to believe it or not.
> 
> ...


Pssst...stay home then and don't concern yourself with others.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> Yes, more deaths. The CDC predicts 130-150k by July 18th
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't mean trending up.   The daily rate of deaths in the US is trending down.   I gave you the graphic.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> This is whatabout-ism. The point of this tactic is to try to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. None of what this fella is saying has anything to do with the fact that not wearing masks will kill more people, as will ending shelter-in-place restrictions. It has nothing to do with the self-denial of those who want to fully open up that doing so will kill people, other than it is just more self-denial.
> 
> But since you really wanna talk about racist pigs, I’ll flatter you. They should also wear masks. Protesters should wear masks. Everyone should wear masks. Everyone should stay home when they can. I’m ok with the non-racist cops continuing to so their job as long as they wear masks and there are important reasons to be out and about.


I am not anti-mask, but we have been sold down the river.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Trending up???
> 
> View attachment 7912


Lets get more local like the State of California


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Regardless of the age of the person with COVID or whether you believe they are COVID positive or just regular patients, this is what is going to drive the decisions in the coming weeks and doing nothing to change the trend isn't an option.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Pssst...stay home then and don't concern yourself with others.


That's the problem. People aren't concerned about others. Only themselves


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

Even that shows a slight downward trend in death rates for Californa.   But you said 120K died on a national level, thus why I showed the information showing a dramatic downward trend in deaths per day over the last 8 weeks. 

So 5733 deaths assigned to Covid for first 6 months.   14,000 people die by accident per year in California, or 7000 for first 6 months.  Turns out we are the best at avoiding accidents in the US, but accidental deaths still higher than Covid.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> That's the problem. People aren't concerned about others. Only themselves


I have to believe these people don't even know what they are saying....essentially they are saying that the approximate 20% of the population that are in high risk and as well as the people that take care of them too or have to live with them for one reason or another, should just lock themselves up so the rest of society can live free even though that 20% of the population are a significant part of society.   That is just so disheartening that there are people that think that way.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

dad4 said:


> You don‘t like my choice of verb tense.
> 
> Fine.  EOTL is stupid for endorsing mass gatherings during a pandemic.
> 
> ...


I’m glad you’re getting it. 

OK now you’re using “shoot the messenger.” I’m just telling you why mass protests are happening and why they’re inevitable.  Sure, like the millions of like minded participants, I think they’re worth holding, but my opinion (see I know the difference between opinion and fact) on the matter has zero influence on them. Blame me all you want, but we both know I didn’t cause it. I’m just the poster boy for you since there is no specific person to blame.  Keep barking at the moon about the protests.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Even that shows a slight downward trend in death rates for Californa.   But you said 120K died on a national level, thus why I showed the information showing a dramatic downward trend in deaths per day over the last 8 weeks.
> 
> So 5733 deaths assigned to Covid for first 6 months.   14,000 people die by accident per year in California, or 7000 for first 6 months.  Turns out we are the best at avoiding accidents in the US, but accidental deaths still higher than Covid.


Please show your facts for car accidents.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> “It is stupid to hold a mass gathering”, well that is truncated passive voice. Truncated passive voice is commonly used when you’re trying to obscure who did what. This allows the person to avoid addressing who is responsible for the action, although that’s a really important point here. Specifically, with the Tulsa rally we knew that Trump held the mass gathering. Trump decided to do it, he was responsible for it, it is his fault. A single person could have easily avoided that stupid and dangerous mass gathering.
> 
> With the protests, on the other hand, there isn’t a single person or small group responsible for making it happen. “It might be stupid” to protest but, unlike the Tulsa rally, there just isn’t a way to stop them from occurring. There are too many individual people making individual decisions in too many places. And as everyone should be aware, the more beating on protesters, the more tear gas, the more individual decisions to protest you’re going to get. To the extent you’re saying it was stupid to have mass protests, you may as well be saying it’s stupid for the sun to go around so slowly because its getting pretty hot. With Tulsa, on the other hand, a dumb mass gathering could have been easily avoided by a single dumbf**k. And although he tries to paint himself like the sun, the only thing inevitable about Trump is that he’s gonna need his Depends at least as much tomorrow as he does today.


This is an argument that the law doesn't matter and mob rule should just prevail.  The people who get to do activities are the ones most readily eager to use violence.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I’m glad you’re getting it.
> 
> OK now you’re using “shoot the messenger.” I’m just telling you why mass protests are happening and why they’re inevitable.  Sure, like the millions of like minded participants, I think they’re worth holding, but my opinion (see I know the difference between opinion and fact) on the matter has zero influence on them. Blame me all you want, but we both know I didn’t cause it. I’m just the poster boy for you since there is no specific person to blame.  Keep barking at the moon about the protests.


I know who to blame.  The protests are bullshit and if criminals weren't coddled, they wouldn't happen.  The only thing it's worth is feigned pity.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Even that shows a slight downward trend in death rates for Californa.   But you said 120K died on a national level, thus why I showed the information showing a dramatic downward trend in deaths per day over the last 8 weeks.
> 
> So 5733 deaths assigned to Covid for first 6 months.   14,000 people die by accident per year in California, or 7000 for first 6 months.  Turns out we are the best at avoiding accidents in the US, but accidental deaths still higher than Covid.


The 5,733 deaths assigned for COVID were not for the first 6 months they are for less than 3 months March 31 to June 24.  On that basis, and if we stay at the same rate of deaths, it will be over 23,000 deaths for the year and most likely higher since we are on a rise.  Maybe we should just remove stop signs and speed limits because the deaths by traffic accident aren't as high as COVID.


----------



## paytoplay (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I have to believe these people don't even know what they are saying....essentially they are saying that the approximate 20% of the population that are in high risk and as well as the people that take care of them too or have to live with them for one reason or another, should just lock themselves up so the rest of society can live free even though that 20% of the population are a significant part of society.   That is just so disheartening that there are people that think that way.


They have finally embraced “death panels.”


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> The 5,733 deaths assigned for COVID were not for the first 6 months they are for less than 3 months March 31 to June 24.  On that basis, and if we stay at the same rate of deaths, it will be over 23,000 deaths for the year and most likely higher since we are on a rise.  Maybe we should just remove stop signs and speed limits because the deaths by traffic accident aren't as high as COVID.


And note....most of those deaths were while we were under lock down.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> This is an argument that the law doesn't matter and mob rule should just prevail.  The people who get to do activities are the ones most readily eager to use violence.


It is so unfair that you can’t get a haircut while everyone else gets to have fun outside the house protesting systemic race discrimination and abuse by law enforcement? Sure. 

False equivalency BTW.  And in a very passive aggressive manner. FYI, most people typically find the latter to be very off-putting even when they share your position. You might want to use a slightly different approach next time.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ...says the "orange man bad" debate tactician.


I prefer to call my approach in-your-face hyperbolic.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

Come on folks the gig is up, spare us the senseless drivel...you Dems and your Blue State / City officials have zero credibility and are toxic to this country. We're being played!









						NYC COVID-19 Contact Tracers Not Asking About George Floyd Protest Participation, Despite Fears of New Virus Wave
					

Mayor de Blasio’s new “test and trace” team has been told not to ask people who tested positive for coronavirus whether they attended any demonstrations.




					www.thecity.nyc


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> Yes, more deaths. The CDC predicts 130-150k by July 18th
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None of the experts have been right yet, just like the climate alarmists.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> I prefer to call my approach in-your-face hyperbolic.


...from behind a keyboard...ok stud! LOL!!!


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Please show your facts for car accidents.


Accidents.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Spare us the victim BS... it's stale and tiresome. Thanks.


Victim?  How?  Where?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Come on folks the gig is up, spare us the senseless drivel...you Dems and your Blue State / City officials have zero credibility and are toxic to this country. We're being played!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Accidents.
> 
> View attachment 7917


Why the f**k are we wearing seatbelts? Way more people due of Covid-19.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Come on folks the gig is up, spare us the senseless drivel...you Dems and your Blue State / City officials have zero credibility and are toxic to this country. We're being played!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's up with the fist everyone has up?  That is gnarly too.  Is it ok to be in the middle anymore or are sides being drawn and one needs to knee and then pump a fist in solitude?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 25, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> None of the experts have been right yet, just like the climate alarmists.


And what have you accurately predicted?


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Accidents.
> 
> View attachment 7917


I should have known better than to question your facts.  You aren't like many others that post instagram numbers.  As noted above, it doesn't matter because your calculation was in accurate but you did get me to thinking and I looked up fatalities due to drunk driving considering the fact everyone is using deaths as a basis for arguments as if it was only a number and not related to a human being.  

I noted in 2007 the fatalities caused by drunk driving was 12,320 for the nation.  I used 2007 because that number was higher before Ubers etc.   So based on the arguments that the number of deaths compared to population is low that everyone keeps making related to COVID, we shouldn't have drunk driving laws.  That takes away our personal freedom to manage our own risk and after all, only 12k people die from it.  If you are concerned about me killing you from drunk driving, then stay home.  That sounds pretty idiotic doesn't it but that is in essence the same argument that many are making on here and elsewhere.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

MacDre said:


> And what have you accurately predicted?


I predict this is gonna run it’s course and it won’t matter very much what we do.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 25, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Accidents.
> 
> View attachment 7917


Based on annualized California deaths from COVID for the period March 31 to June 24 or 24k, that will the #3 cause of death in California right under cancer.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Paragraph 2 starts with what is known as the strawman argument. No one has advocated for a “perpetual lockdown.” This person then supplements her strawman with the emotional appeal technique, which is a good one when you still don’t have facts. To really drive home the emotional appeal argument, next time I recommend adding an anecdotal story about a fictional child named Bobby who couldn’t get his cancer treatment due to covid hysteria, was beaten in the home by his laid off father who fell into drinking and depression, and ultimately took his own life after the physical and emotional toll just became too much.


I just threw back at you the same thing you did. Guess satire is a little beyond you. Few people are saying oh just go for it.  I personally believe in limited mask use and reasonable precautions.  But fact remains you can’t allow these protests and then expect any limiting principle.  The limiting principle current policy seems to be headed is open up everything except let’s f the kids, which is not only unscientific, insane but only being done because it’s low hanging fruit (they don’t vote and their parents don’t riot at least not over this).


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> We have 120k people dead in our country due to Covid. In less time than an entire flu season, which at most kills around 60k. And the numbers are only trending up. I don't want to hear any bullshit that the numbers aren't accurate, are inflated, or my personal favorite- the hospitals are part of the deep state and only in for a profit. Don't use that argument unless you can prove it with hard facts. Its absurd
> 
> It also pisses me off when people say this whole situation is a ploy by the governor or other politicians for a political agenda. NOBODY wants to see people lose their lives and jobs. Nobody is that evil except maybe Hitler. The government is trying to remedy this absolute mess with our livelihoods being first priority. Whether you want to believe it or not.
> 
> ...


PMS?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 25, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Pssst...stay home then and don't concern yourself with others.


Now we know why women are battered.


----------



## lancer (Jun 25, 2020)

and I thought your comments on the sideline were stupid...we have a new low with COVID parents.  You should distance yourself from your keyboards.


----------



## socalkdg (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> Based on annualized California deaths from COVID for the period March 31 to June 24 or 24k, that will the #3 cause of death in California right under cancer.


Go with 24K for the year that you mention.   Normal deaths for California is 268K deaths for the year.    Population 39 million.   

Do we keep kids out of school?   Out of sports? Shut down business? Put people out of work? All for a 10% uptick?

I’ll answer.  Kids back to school and back to sports.  Adults wear mask or social distance while open up business and keep people working.  And more testing.   Make it cheap and easy with quicker turnaround on the tests.  

By the way.  CDC said today We have 10x as many cases then reported.  So 2 million cases in California, not 200K.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 25, 2020)

gkmom said:


> That's the problem. People aren't concerned about others. Only themselves


I agree with you except for one issue.  This covid thing is not going away. How are you going to quarantine an entire state for 12 months.  People will lose their jobs, homes, and savings.    I do agree that the mask thing is a must.   Nobody knows what to do but doing nothing at home for 13 months is also not the answer


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I just threw back at you the same thing you did. Guess satire is a little beyond you. Few people are saying oh just go for it.  I personally believe in limited mask use and reasonable precautions.  But fact remains you can’t allow these protests and then expect any limiting principle.  The limiting principle current policy seems to be headed is open up everything except let’s f the kids, which is not only unscientific, insane but only being done because it’s low hanging fruit (they don’t vote and their parents don’t riot at least not over this).


You know what, you are right. I will stop allowing the protests. It was very arrogant of me to let them go out for such an asinine reason, and still expect everyone else to only go out for things that were critically important to them. What was I thinking?


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I have to believe these people don't even know what they are saying....essentially they are saying that the approximate 20% of the population that are in high risk and as well as the people that take care of them too or have to live with them for one reason or another, should just lock themselves up so the rest of society can live free even though that 20% of the population are a significant part of society.   That is just so disheartening that there are people that think that way.


So 4/5 people should be beholden to the needs of the 1/5?  Business, freedoms, work, life, etc., so 1/5 can dictate the path forward...it’s like 1/5 kids struggle in school and need tutoring, so all kids get mandated tutoring whether they need it or not...one size fits all solutions very rarely work...you just spelled out the Pareto Principle ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) ....crazy when the tail wags the dog.

600k cancer deaths a year....the Flu Death estimates are 30-65k, but we are going to change the way we live for Covid...does the other stuff not matter anymore?

The at-risk cross section should not be driving decisions or behaviors for those with low risk. The at risk group needs to be managed differently. It is not all or nothing, one way or no way.

200k is .058% of the population in the US.  Lots of people and very, very tragic.  Not minimizing that. 99.942% are left.  There has to be a better way than what is being done currently.  Suicide, mental health, social, economic, etc, etc. all these factors matter in making policy, decisions, and a path forward.  It’s multi-dimensional.  Problem is this board is a microcosm of the world.  We can’t agree on shit, and the end results are mandated solutions that blow.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 25, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> So 4/5 people should should be beholden to the needs of the 1/5?  Business, freedoms, work, life, etc., so 1/5 can dictate the path forward...it’s like 1/5 kids struggle in school and need tutoring, so all kids get mandated tutoring whether they need it or not...one size fits all solutions very rarely work...you just spelled out the Pareto Principle (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle)....crazy when the tail wags the dog.
> 
> 600k cancer deaths a year....the Flu Death estimates are 30-65k, but we are going to change the way we live for Covid...does the other stuff not matter anymore?
> 
> ...


I don’t know man. I kinda feel like 2.5 million dying annually is plenty. Increasing that by 20-25 percent seems a bit extra, even if it means I can live vicariously through my child’s sports and go to the brewery.


----------



## Anon9 (Jun 25, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> So 4/5 people should should be beholden to the needs of the 1/5?  Business, freedoms, work, life, etc., so 1/5 can dictate the path forward...it’s like 1/5 kids struggle in school and need tutoring, so all kids get mandated tutoring whether they need it or not...one size fits all solutions very rarely work...you just spelled out the Pareto Principle ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) ....crazy when the tail wags the dog.
> 
> 600k cancer deaths a year....the Flu Death estimates are 30-65k, but we are going to change the way we live for Covid...does the other stuff not matter anymore?
> 
> ...


And with that, it’s time for @EOTL to STFU!


----------



## chiefs (Jun 25, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> And note....most of those deaths were while we were under lock down.


The China Virus was in the US much sooner than the lockdown commenced.


----------



## watfly (Jun 25, 2020)

watfly said:


> EOTL (and anyone else)  I'll extend an olive branch even though I'm apparently a white supremacist because I use whatabout-ism.   I know I said we can't find middle ground but maybe we can we agree to the following.  Don't have to agree 100% but at least its primarily true in your mind and we don't have to agree on the extremes of the issue.
> 
> -We love to watch our kids play soccer
> -The youth soccer landscape is not perfect and could be approved
> ...


Two more:
-Its wrong to vandalize statues of Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan
-Not stoked that Costco is bringing back samples


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> It is so unfair that you can’t get a haircut while everyone else gets to have fun outside the house protesting systemic race discrimination and abuse by law enforcement? Sure.
> 
> False equivalency BTW.  And in a very passive aggressive manner. FYI, most people typically find the latter to be very off-putting even when they share your position. You might want to use a slightly different approach next time.


This hideous thing felt entitled to get a haircut when nobody else could.  Yes, THAT hair.  This is a two-fer, Rainbow.  Black AND Dyker.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> What's up with the fist everyone has up?  That is gnarly too.  Is it ok to be in the middle anymore or are sides being drawn and one needs to knee and then pump a fist in solitude?


Fisting is a black thing.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You know what, you are right. I will stop allowing the protests. It was very arrogant of me to let them go out for such an asinine reason, and still expect everyone else to only go out for things that were critically important to them. What was I thinking?


What's critically important about this?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 25, 2020)

EOTL said:


> You know what, you are right. I will stop allowing the protests. It was very arrogant of me to let them go out for such an asinine reason, and still expect everyone else to only go out for things that were critically important to them. What was I thinking?


Come on simpleton, that's it? You've run out of steam... seriously consider cutting your losses, you're an embarrassment at this point.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 26, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Go with 24K for the year that you mention.   Normal deaths for California is 268K deaths for the year.    Population 39 million.
> 
> Do we keep kids out of school?   Out of sports? Shut down business? Put people out of work? All for a 10% uptick?
> 
> ...


I don't think you read my previous posts because I have stated over and over again kids on the field socially distanced is very low risk and should have been one of the first activities allowed instead of the last after opening nail salons.   Now we are back to everyone wearing masks....that has been shown by science and history (1918) to slow the spread...... yet as in 1918 the argument over the freedom to choose whether to wear or not wear masks is stopping many from doing it because of course if they comply by wearing a mask the next step is obviously socialism.  

As I have also stated in previous posts, we are headed to various stages of shut down because of hospital capacity issues that I have calculated will occur sometime in August to October if we (in OC) keep increasing hospitalizations and ICU cases at the same rate that has recently been occurring.   People (the I will do me population) fighting masks and social distancing are the people that will be driving the bus to those various levels of shut down because what other option will our government have if we don't have enough hospital beds?  We can transport to other counties but they are on the rise too.  Most are not increasing at the rate we are in OC.   

 Shut down won't occur to prevent death...it will occur as a necessity to prevent an overwhelmed healthcare system.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 26, 2020)

chiefs said:


> The China Virus was in the US much sooner than the lockdown commenced.


And your point?  Deaths only started being identified starting March 31.  It doesn't matter when the virus was contracted.  The # of deaths in the period used as a basis for annualizing were deaths while we were in lock down.  So my point was 23k for a year period is probably very low because during lock down there is less spread so less deaths.  I would guesstimate that the deaths in California from COVID will probably end up double 23k.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> And with that, it’s time for @EOTL to STFU!


Nah. Like Governor Newsom, I’m gonna be around for a while to keep reminding everyone how stupid you are.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm hearing some chatter that the governor may put SoCal back into at least partial lockdown (or at a minimum halt reopening) because he's worried about things exploding with the 4th.  If so that seriously sets back the season which means no way for tournaments to go in August, and season at best becomes a 50/50 proposition.

That doesn't remove his 4th problem if he allows protests to continue because 4th celebrations are speech.  The line of flag burning cases pretty much established that, so restrictions must be content neutral and you can't prohibit one and not the other or even limit gathering sizes.

I'm also beginning to think that one of the drivers of this has been not just the protests (which are outside which would reduce transmission) but gatherings in public homes (whether before people head out for protests, or parties, b days, weddings, wakes and because they have no where else to go) and cars on the way to and from.  It would explain why it's happening with younger people who are the ones doing the gatherings.  If true, both the new lockdowns and mask wearing will do nothing to stop that vector because short of Chinese style house arrest the gatherings (in aircon) will continue to happen and people don't wear masks in other people's houses.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> I don't think you read my previous posts because I have stated over and over again kids on the field socially distanced is very low risk and should have been one of the first activities allowed instead of the last after opening nail salons.   Now we are back to everyone wearing masks....that has been shown by science and history (1918) to slow the spread...... yet as in 1918 the argument over the freedom to choose whether to wear or not wear masks is stopping many from doing it because of course if they comply by wearing a mask the next step is obviously socialism.
> 
> As I have also stated in previous posts, we are headed to various stages of shut down because of hospital capacity issues that I have calculated will occur sometime in August to October if we (in OC) keep increasing hospitalizations and ICU cases at the same rate that has recently been occurring.   People (the I will do me population) fighting masks and social distancing are the people that will be driving the bus to those various levels of shut down because what other option will our government have if we don't have enough hospital beds?  We can transport to other counties but they are on the rise too.  Most are not increasing at the rate we are in OC.
> 
> Shut down won't occur to prevent death...it will occur as a necessity to prevent an overwhelmed healthcare system.


Most people I know hate the mask but wear it.  However, like me they wear it and do it.  We can debate this issue though, right?  I watched on local TV for 14 days straight in Socal protesting ((I support peaceful protest)) not wearing mask that much. We got our information and now let's wear a mask in close encounters of people you don't know.  I know for a fact this virus has been living with us for a long time and has made it's home here. I saw that 17 family members in Texas got the Corona by the nephew at a house party.  Nephew said he had a cough and went to see grandma and grandpa at the family party.  Both are over 80 year olds and one of them has cancer.  The headline was so lame too, I won;t share it but it's very misleading as so many are today in the news headline biz.  Once you read what actually took place, you just see how some people are not following the guidelines very well and it will kill your loved one earlier than they wanted.  That's on the family right there imo.  It's say's that grandma and grandpa were at the party and one of them had cancer already and is now on life support with Corona and a  breathing machine and probably wont make it.  Why on earth are you hanging out with your parents? I also saw local tv news for 14 days straight of protest and very little mask. I saw cops hugging and shaking hands and all that cool love and "I want to do better" and I loved that.  Good will come from all this but it's the hypocrisy of it all or the double standard that can drive one crazy.  Joe Biden has said today he will make it a law if he's elected you must wear a mask.  Like I said on numerous occasions, obey the laws and rules regardless if you like them or not.  My dd was driving 20 miles over the speed limit ((she had no idea that some cities like to change the speed limit to make some money)) and I told her she has to pay more attention or you will pay big time.  She didn;t like that and I said, "Too bad, it's the law."


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Most people I know hate the mask but wear it.


They wear it badly, under their noses or fidget with it.  The police who I had to deal with recently didn't show up wearing them until they were shamed by a neighbor and her baby.  Imagine children in elementary school dealing with it.  To see really funny mask usage watch Nadler and the Republicans at the hearing 2 days ago....he had one of the better masks and his use of it was comical.  Still, I agee, mask usage is helpful and should be required indoors or in crowds.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I'm hearing some chatter that the governor may put SoCal back into at least partial lockdown (or at a minimum halt reopening) because he's worried about things exploding with the 4th.  If so that seriously sets back the season which means no way for tournaments to go in August, and season at best becomes a 50/50 proposition.
> 
> That doesn't remove his 4th problem if he allows protests to continue because 4th celebrations are speech.  The line of flag burning cases pretty much established that, so restrictions must be content neutral and you can't prohibit one and not the other or even limit gathering sizes.
> 
> I'm also beginning to think that one of the drivers of this has been not just the protests (which are outside which would reduce transmission) but gatherings in public homes (whether before people head out for protests, or parties, b days, weddings, wakes and because they have no where else to go) and cars on the way to and from.  It would explain why it's happening with younger people who are the ones doing the gatherings.  If true, both the new lockdowns and mask wearing will do nothing to stop that vector because short of Chinese style house arrest the gatherings (in aircon) will continue to happen and people don't wear masks in other people's houses.


I can;t find my prediction on this but I told everyone and many "experts" also said we will see a spike because of the peaceful protest that lasted 14 days straight.  However, the peace that some got from their protesting without masks and social distancing has now brought death, yes real death because others decided to exercise their free speech without regards to others safety.  What was free for some, has cost people their lives, their livelihood, their purpose, their careers and so much more fear and depression were on a brink of major disaster for all.  I see something much more sinister but I'll keep that to myself.  TGIG and I truly will pray for peace for everyone.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Whose mother is this...? Outlaw did you let your mom out of her sex dungeon again?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> So 4/5 people should be beholden to the needs of the 1/5?  Business, freedoms, work, life, etc., so 1/5 can dictate the path forward...it’s like 1/5 kids struggle in school and need tutoring, so all kids get mandated tutoring whether they need it or not...one size fits all solutions very rarely work...you just spelled out the Pareto Principle ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) ....crazy when the tail wags the dog.
> 
> 600k cancer deaths a year....the Flu Death estimates are 30-65k, but we are going to change the way we live for Covid...does the other stuff not matter anymore?
> 
> ...


4/5 are beholden to 1/5, eh?  You’re making up numbers that, coincidentally almost exactly backwards.  Actually, 75% of Californians supported the shelter-in-place rules when they were in effect. 

Really, it’s only about 1/10th of Californians who think there’s a constitutional right to go to Costco without a mask. 

But I love the detach-from-reality make up numbers game; let’s play!  87.763636% of Californians agree that most soccer parents are idiots. 71.9966% believe soccer is the worst of team sports .0000000000001% of those who committed suicide did so due to covid shelter-in-place rules, whereas there would have been a 65.88665% increase had there been no shelter-in-place because they were distraught that grandma died of covid. Business would be down two hundred bazillion percent ifcwe hadn’t sheltered-in-place and 8x as many people had died of covid so far.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> So 4/5 people should be beholden to the needs of the 1/5?  Business, freedoms, work, life, etc., so 1/5 can dictate the path forward...it’s like 1/5 kids struggle in school and need tutoring, so all kids get mandated tutoring whether they need it or not...one size fits all solutions very rarely work...you just spelled out the Pareto Principle ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) ....crazy when the tail wags the dog.
> 
> 600k cancer deaths a year....the Flu Death estimates are 30-65k, but we are going to change the way we live for Covid...does the other stuff not matter anymore?
> 
> ...


I agree that one size fits all doesn't work.


Grace T. said:


> I'm hearing some chatter that the governor may put SoCal back into at least partial lockdown (or at a minimum halt reopening) because he's worried about things exploding with the 4th.  If so that seriously sets back the season which means no way for tournaments to go in August, and season at best becomes a 50/50 proposition.
> 
> That doesn't remove his 4th problem if he allows protests to continue because 4th celebrations are speech.  The line of flag burning cases pretty much established that, so restrictions must be content neutral and you can't prohibit one and not the other or even limit gathering sizes.
> 
> I'm also beginning to think that one of the drivers of this has been not just the protests (which are outside which would reduce transmission) but gatherings in public homes (whether before people head out for protests, or parties, b days, weddings, wakes and because they have no where else to go) and cars on the way to and from.  It would explain why it's happening with younger people who are the ones doing the gatherings.  If true, both the new lockdowns and mask wearing will do nothing to stop that vector because short of Chinese style house arrest the gatherings (in aircon) will continue to happen and people don't wear masks in other people's houses.


Yeah....I already determined the 20/21 soccer season is gone here in socal and I doubt very seriously kids will be back at school.  I have been managing my family's activities based on risk of infection but the Government doesn't appear to be managing on the same basis.  I knew when the protests happened the blame in increases were going to be all on the protests even though we opened at the same time.  The combination of the two makes it impossible to know what contributed more to the current increases here in OC.  Of course if they were appropriately contact tracing they would know but they would never tell us.  I doubt very seriously there is any appropriately organized contact tracing occurring in OC because they won't even list restaurants where COVID infections have caused shut down so people can get tested.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Whose mother is this...? Outlaw did you let your mom out of her sex dungeon again?


My mother died of cancer a couple of years ago... but thanks for asking. 

Is the lady wrong?  The pussies in charge of these cities let morons block freeways, burn down businesses and walk up and down streets wearing no masks.  Aren't YOU tired of being told to do something the feral savages aren't doing?  You think THIS lady is responsible for the spike?  Do you see videos of HER walking out of department stores with an armful of stolen goods because security can't stop her?  Was SHE driving on meth, THC and Fentanyl while passing counterfeit money?  Could it have been HER holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly while robbing her?

A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.  Making an example can save lives.  Trump wants law, order and an economy that's robust and employs people.  Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos.  You decide which one YOU want.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I'm hearing some chatter that the governor may put SoCal back into at least partial lockdown (or at a minimum halt reopening) because he's worried about things exploding with the 4th.  If so that seriously sets back the season which means no way for tournaments to go in August, and season at best becomes a 50/50 proposition.
> 
> That doesn't remove his 4th problem if he allows protests to continue because 4th celebrations are speech.  The line of flag burning cases pretty much established that, so restrictions must be content neutral and you can't prohibit one and not the other or even limit gathering sizes.
> 
> I'm also beginning to think that one of the drivers of this has been not just the protests (which are outside which would reduce transmission) but gatherings in public homes (whether before people head out for protests, or parties, b days, weddings, wakes and because they have no where else to go) and cars on the way to and from.  It would explain why it's happening with younger people who are the ones doing the gatherings.  If true, both the new lockdowns and mask wearing will do nothing to stop that vector because short of Chinese style house arrest the gatherings (in aircon) will continue to happen and people don't wear masks in other people's houses.


Good, that’s what you idiots deserve. If you want to live vicariously through your kids, put on your mask and stay home.

There is no stopping protests. Period. Get over it. The Governor is not going to shoot and tear people and he shouldn’t. Protests are not an excuse for you and your mostly racist anti-science moron friends to continue being idiots about the things you actually can control. I get that you don’t believe that systemic racism and police brutality justify protesting and the collateral covid damage that will inevitably result from it. Well, too bad, that is out of your control. At any rate, millions upon millions of people disagree with you, whereas there are only a handful of racists in CA who think protests are a great excuse to get a haircut. But like you said, there is no one-size-fits all solution, so protests can happen because this is not a police state and actual and real constitutional concerns exist about trying to stop them even if you don’t use bullets and tear gas. You going to Applebees or kiddie team sports right now, well, that is just stupid.

I am not at all surprised that you’re all now blaming black people for the fact that lil’ Kaityln, Caitlin, Katelyn, and Kate-Lyn can’t play soccer right now. That is what racists do.  How dare they get upset about getting murdered by the police and systemically discriminated against at all steps of life, right? Shelter-in-place is their fault because they and their friends got all uppity over something that you don’t consider to be a big deal? 

If you want protests to stop, more of you need to actually show empathy for what is happening to them instead of blaming them that you need to keep using DoorDash. In other words, the protests are not the fault of the people protesting. They are direct consequence of the fact that there are too many people like you who are ok with racism and police brutality.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Good, that’s what you idiots deserve. If you want to live vicariously through your kids, put on your mask and stay home.
> 
> There is no stopping protests. Period. Get over it. The Governor is not going to shoot and tear people and he shouldn’t. Protests are not an excuse for you and your mostly racist anti-science moron friends to continue being idiots about the things you actually can control. I get that you don’t believe that systemic racism and police brutality justify protesting and the collateral covid damage that will inevitably result from it. Well, too bad, that is out of your control. At any rate, millions upon millions of people disagree with you, whereas there are only a handful of racists in CA who think protests are a great excuse to get a haircut. But like you said, there is no one-size-fits all solution, so protests can happen because this is not a police state and actual and real constitutional concerns exist about trying to stop them even if you don’t use bullets and tear gas. You going to Applebees or kiddie team sports right now, well, that is just stupid.
> 
> ...


You know who doesn't have a problem with police?  Everyone else.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

So I came up with an idea based on all the data I gathered on this message board.  100% of the Docs say if you live in a nursing home, have cancer, heart disease, hypertension, lung issues and obesity, you need to stay home for sure and try not to end your last days at a nursing home.  Be nice to your children so they will help you when your 85.  If your over 60, you need to be extra careful.  Now for the rest of us, we should all wear mask to be safe and 6 ft keep away from others.  If everyone did this, we would beat this sucker.  Protest safely is all I ask is all I ask.  TGIF


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> My mother died of cancer a couple of years ago... but thanks for asking.
> 
> Is the lady wrong?  The pussies in charge of these cities let morons block freeways, burn down businesses and walk up and down streets wearing no masks.  Aren't YOU tired of being told to do something the feral savages aren't doing?  You think THIS lady is responsible for the spike?  Do you see videos of HER walking out of department stores with an armful of stolen goods because security can't stop her?  Was SHE driving on meth, THC and Fentanyl while passing counterfeit money?  Could it have been HER holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly while robbing her?
> 
> A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.  Making an example can save lives.  Trump wants law, order and an economy that's robust and employs people.  Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos.  You decide which one YOU want.


@Soccermaverick, I think what he is saying is it’s his half-sister/cousin/wife.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> @Soccermaverick, I think what he is saying is it’s his half-sister/cousin/wife.


I think you should take more time with your material.


----------



## watfly (Jun 26, 2020)

Man the bar for racism has gotten really low these days.  I'm obviously a super racist because I use whataboutisms and I want my kid to play soccer right now.  I guess all the money I've raised the last 15 years for programs for underprivileged kids (mostly minorities) is just due to my white guilt and trying to make myself feel better about my obvious prejudice.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> Man the bar for racism has gotten really low these days.  I'm obviously a super racist because I use whataboutisms and I want my kid to play soccer right now.  I guess all the money I've raised for programs for underprivileged kids (mostly minorities) is just due to my white guilt and trying to make myself feel better about my obvious prejudice.


Many were taught, at an early age, if you can't get what you want... throw a tantrum or cry.  Plenty of that going on the last 2 weeks.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> 4/5 are beholden to 1/5, eh?  You’re making up numbers that, coincidentally almost exactly backwards.  Actually, 75% of Californians supported the shelter-in-place rules when they were in effect.
> 
> Really, it’s only about 1/10th of Californians who think there’s a constitutional right to go to Costco without a mask.
> 
> But I love the detach-from-reality make up numbers game; let’s play!  87.763636% of Californians agree that most soccer parents are idiots. 71.9966% believe soccer is the worst of team sports .0000000000001% of those who committed suicide did so due to covid shelter-in-place rules, whereas there would have been a 65.88665% increase had there been no shelter-in-place because they were distraught that grandma died of covid. Business would be down two hundred bazillion percent ifcwe hadn’t sheltered-in-place and 8x as many people had died of covid so far.


Actually, I was using the prior posters 20% example and ran with it, and bringing up the Pareto Principle since it matched. Not making up numbers...although the Pareto Principle does have some merit. I’d be willing to wager that 80%+ percent of the deaths are from a 20%- group: age, pre-existing, etc...Focus the effort on the 20% not the 100%...I’m not talking about this in terms of soccer...my kid will done with soccer around 22...she will have 70 more years + on the earth god willing...soccer is a thing she does, not who she is, and is not the most important thing in the world by a long shot. She does love it, and does want to play.  In fact they have camps starting Sunday and she can’t wait.

I’m suggesting that we have adjusted plans for groups that are more at risk than others and that it should not be a one-size-fits all approach....the absolutes are getting real old...all cops are racist, everyone carries the same risk, etc...blah...blah...blah.  I support wearing a mask and following the rules/laws even if I don’t necessarily agree with them.

I actually said in an earlier post that I agree with what Newsome did originally and lock us down, as we had very little information at the time.  Things change over time and the lack of creativity, and leadership is astonishing, but I digress.  All these little tweaks and rules give the appearance of action when none is really being taken.  It’s an illusion.  My numbers were the 200k (death count)/340mm (est. us pop).  They were back of the napkin used for perspective.  Not intended for Govt or commercial use.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> Man the bar for racism has gotten really low these days.  I'm obviously a super racist because I use whataboutisms and I want my kid to play soccer right now.  I guess all the money I've raised for programs for underprivileged kids (mostly minorities) is just due to my white guilt and trying to make myself feel better about my obvious prejudice.


@watfly only......God knows the truth and he knows the motives of everyone's heart.  Not for us to judge.  One day a time.  My true friends, who are my bros, know the truth and that's what matters.  Not a message board thank God.  Lot's of pain going around and that fear virus is real.  I have so much to share but I wont because no one knows me here and I have no need to share my life anymore.  I came here to talk girls soccer.  I do hope for peace and all of us to care for each other and listen to each other without violence.  Keep helping everyone


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> My mother died of cancer a couple of years ago... but thanks for asking.
> 
> Is the lady wrong?  The pussies in charge of these cities let morons block freeways, burn down businesses and walk up and down streets wearing no masks.  Aren't YOU tired of being told to do something the feral savages aren't doing?  You think THIS lady is responsible for the spike?  Do you see videos of HER walking out of department stores with an armful of stolen goods because security can't stop her?  Was SHE driving on meth, THC and Fentanyl while passing counterfeit money?  Could it have been HER holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly while robbing her?
> 
> A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.  Making an example can save lives.  Trump wants law, order and an economy that's robust and employs people.  Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos.  You decide which one YOU want.


With all due respect... did she die from mouth cancer... you should get yours checked...it may be hereditary...

Wow in the same paragraph 

“A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos”

Outlaw...you really should not be around children


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> There is no stopping protests. Period. Get over it. The Governor is not going to shoot and tear people and he shouldn’t. Protests are not an excuse for you and your mostly racist anti-science moron friends to continue being idiots about the things you actually can control. I get that you don’t believe that systemic racism and police brutality justify protesting and the collateral covid damage that will inevitably result from it. Well, too bad, that is out of your control. At any rate, millions upon millions of people disagree with you, whereas there are only a handful of racists in CA who think protests are a great excuse to get a haircut. But like you said, there is no one-size-fits all solution, so protests can happen because this is not a police state and actual and real constitutional concerns exist about trying to stop them even if you don’t use bullets and tear gas. You going to Applebees or kiddie team sports right now, well, that is just stupid.


Errr....if your limiting principle is first amendment activities should be allowed but other businesses are expendable, it would be an o.k. limiting principle.  But realize the implications of what you are saying.  First amendment restrictions must be content neutral.  That means Trump rallies, antiabortion pickets and even KKK marches must be o.k.  That also means 4th of July celebrations if privately organized must be allowed to go on.  The line of flag burning cases made very clear that this is speech, and as such is not subject to Constitutional restrictions.  Also protected under the 1st amendment is religion.  It means worship service,s funerals, and weddings (at least religious ones) are protected as well. 

Next, even if the protests can't be limited that doesn't mean that government figures shouldn't say they aren't a great idea.  But some have even gone out of their way to encourage them as an exception, saying social justice is just way too important.  That had the secondary effect of convincing much of the public the experts weren't serious about anything (including masks) and they should just have at it.  So in a very real way, the protestor are ver responsible for what's happened.  As I wrote above, I think the primary driver of this is now private gatherings and short of Chinese style house arrest I'm not sure any lockdowns or mask orders will do anything.

Lastly, your accusation of racism is not only insulting but bigoted.  I'm a 4x minority and have experienced discrimination in my life 4 different ways.  Please check your privilege.  How many minority credits you got?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> Man the bar for racism has gotten really low these days.  I'm obviously a super racist because I use whataboutisms and I want my kid to play soccer right now.  I guess all the money I've raised the last 15 years for programs for underprivileged kids (mostly minorities) is just due to my white guilt and trying to make myself feel better about my obvious prejudice.


Who called you a super racist?


----------



## watfly (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> @watfly only......God knows the truth and he knows the motives of everyone's heart.  Not for us to judge.  One day a time.  My true friends, who are my bros, know the truth and that's what matters.  Not a message board thank God.  Lot's of pain going around and that fear virus is real.  I have so much to share but I wont because no one knows me here and I have no need to share my life anymore.  I came here to talk girls soccer.  I do hope for peace and all of us to care for each other and listen to each other without violence.  Keep helping everyone


Thanks for your support, but EOTL has shown me the light.  I'm resigning my youth organization Board position and making protest signs right now.  I'm also prepping my statue removal ropes since Gov Coumo has called statue removal a "healthy expression".  It's time to do something substantive and not virtue signal about helping underprivileged kids.


----------



## Keepermom2 (Jun 26, 2020)

When Sheriff Joe and Outlaw enter the room you know things have taken a turn for the worst but when people respond to them, that is when I exit.  Goodbye!


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Nah. Like Governor Newsom, I’m gonna be around for a while to keep reminding everyone how stupid you are.


You?  The one who praises left wing street protests, then complains about the public health consequences of a right wing rally?

Your consistency on the issue speaks for itself.


----------



## watfly (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Who called you a super racist?


No one.  It was just a sarcastic response to EOTL's claims.

On another note and this is a genuine question to one of your posts.  In a previous post I had claimed that the lockdown particularly as it relates to education is disproportionally impacting underprivileged kids and that the quality of education was an issue before Covid and the lockdown is only making it worse.  (You busted on GraceT claiming that she only cares about it now which I felt was unfair, but so be it, she can defend herself).

Now the genuine question, how would you go about improving the education system for minorities?  I believe you mentioned your an attorney? and obviously your wife is very accomplished (congrats for her award) so I think you would be uniquely qualified to address this question.  In a generic sense, I feel schools need more accountability and/or competition.  While I'm in favor of school choice (ie competition), and realize its maybe not considered PC, I don't think it gets to the root of the problem.  Honestly, just curious about your opinion, not trying to debate you.


----------



## Simisoccerfan (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Whose mother is this...? Outlaw did you let your mom out of her sex dungeon again?


People like this and the person she is supporting is giving us Republicans a bad name.  Not all of us are nuts.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Good, that’s what you idiots deserve. If you want to live vicariously through your kids, put on your mask and stay home.
> 
> There is no stopping protests. Period. Get over it. The Governor is not going to shoot and tear people and he shouldn’t. Protests are not an excuse for you and your mostly racist anti-science moron friends to continue being idiots about the things you actually can control. I get that you don’t believe that systemic racism and police brutality justify protesting and the collateral covid damage that will inevitably result from it. Well, too bad, that is out of your control. At any rate, millions upon millions of people disagree with you, whereas there are only a handful of racists in CA who think protests are a great excuse to get a haircut. But like you said, there is no one-size-fits all solution, so protests can happen because this is not a police state and actual and real constitutional concerns exist about trying to stop them even if you don’t use bullets and tear gas. You going to Applebees or kiddie team sports right now, well, that is just stupid.
> 
> ...


Step one: praise protests during an epidemic.

Step two: accuse other people of being anti-science.

Apparently EOTL doesn’t believe epidemiology is a science?  Or maybe he just doesn’t think the rules apply to him.

If you want the current windbag out of the oval office, stop spreading disease in the streets and start making phone calls for the Democrats.  I know it is less fun than tearing down statues of abolitionist war heroes, but it is long past time to grow up.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> I believe you mentioned your an attorney? and obviously your wife is very accomplished (congrats for her award)


I'd put up my credentials against his any day of the week.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> Actually, I was using the prior posters 20% example and ran with it, and bringing up the Pareto Principle since it matched. Not making up numbers...although the Pareto Principle does have some merit. I’d be willing to wager that 80%+ percent of the deaths are from a 20%- group: age, pre-existing, etc...Focus the effort on the 20% not the 100%...I’m not talking about this in terms of soccer...my kid will done with soccer around 22...she will have 70 more years + on the earth god willing...soccer is a thing she does, not who she is, and is not the most important thing in the world by a long shot. She does love it, and does want to play.  In fact they have camps starting Sunday and she can’t wait.
> 
> I’m suggesting that we have adjusted plans for groups that are more at risk than others and that it should not be a one-size-fits all approach....the absolutes are getting real old...all cops are racist, everyone carries the same risk, etc...blah...blah...blah.  I support wearing a mask and following the rules/laws even if I don’t necessarily agree with them.
> 
> I actually said in an earlier post that I agree with what Newsome did originally and lock us down, as we had very little information at the time.  Things change over time and the lack of creativity, and leadership is astonishing, but I digress.  All these little tweaks and rules give the appearance of action when none is really being taken.  It’s an illusion.  My numbers were the 200k (death count)/340mm (est. us pop).  They were back of the napkin used for perspective.  Not intended for Govt or commercial use.


The Pareto principle, by its very nature is a fake thing. Giving a fake thing a name that includes the word principle in it doesn’t make something real. It only show the desperation of those who have neither facts nor science on their side try to convince themselves that they do. According to the Pareto principle, 80% of anti-vaxxers are really stupid, whereas the remaining 20% are really, really stupid. Cuz the Pareto Principle proves it.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> Man the bar for racism has gotten really low these days.  I'm obviously a super racist because I use whataboutisms and I want my kid to play soccer right now.  I guess all the money I've raised the last 15 years for programs for underprivileged kids (mostly minorities) is just due to my white guilt and trying to make myself feel better about my obvious prejudice.


I lack sufficient information to determine you are a racist. I’m putting you in the “aider and abettor” category for now.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> You?  The one who praises left wing street protests, then complains about the public health consequences of a right wing rally?
> 
> Your consistency on the issue speaks for itself.


I am 100% consistent. There is no way anyone can stop people from protesting. All anyone can do is understand why it is happening. The rally in Tulsa, on the other hand, could easily have been stopped by a single person and, more importantly, by a person in a leadership position.  The only ones being inconsistent are those complaining that a public gathering that cannot be stopped is bad right now, but support a leader who actually has control and is single-handledly responsible for causing the very thing you claim to be upset about.

If a bunch of you tiki torchers decide to get together again and roast some marshmallows over a burning cross in Charlottesville, I promise I won’t complain how its your fault that my kid can’t play team sports for a while.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> The Pareto principle, by its very nature is a fake thing. Giving a fake thing a name that includes the word principle in it doesn’t make something real. It only show the desperation of those who have neither facts nor science on their side try to convince themselves that they do. According to the Pareto principle, 80% of anti-vaxxers are really stupid, whereas the remaining 20% are really, really stupid. Cuz the Pareto Principle proves it.


Well...we can agree to disagree.  It’s a frequently used principle in a lot of different disciplines - Business, Healthcare, Software Engineering...it’s based on identifying, categorizing, and stratifying the underlying data into groups so you can identify where to focus, solve problems, or invest more.  Not fake.

Like 80% of the junk on this board comes from 20% of the posters...something like that...


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

White supremacy is an attitude... I have seen all races try and use their supremacy...  they are tea partiers, libertarian, Republicans, Democrats... whatever... ... Bottom line if you don’t practice anti-racism...you are a  racist. 









						Kellie Chauvin and a history of Asian women being judged for whom they marry
					

Remarks about the Chauvins' interracial marriage come from historical emasculation of Asian men and fetishization of Asian women, experts say.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> With all due respect... did she die from mouth cancer... you should get yours checked...it may be hereditary...
> 
> Wow in the same paragraph
> 
> ...


Awe... does my posting facts make your vagina hurt?


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Bottom line if you don’t practice anti-racism...you are a  racist.


What is practicing anti-racism?  If I treat all people fairly, with respect, provide opportunities to all in the workplace, and just try to follow the rule of treat others the way I want to be treated, is that practicing anti-racism or are you talking about something different?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

watfly said:


> No one.  It was just a sarcastic response to EOTL's claims.
> 
> On another note and this is a genuine question to one of your posts.  In a previous post I had claimed that the lockdown particularly as it relates to education is disproportionally impacting underprivileged kids and that the quality of education was an issue before Covid and the lockdown is only making it worse.  (You busted on GraceT claiming that she only cares about it now which I felt was unfair, but so be it, she can defend herself).
> 
> Now the genuine question, how would you go about improving the education system for minorities?  I believe you mentioned your an attorney? and obviously your wife is very accomplished (congrats for her award) so I think you would be uniquely qualified to address this question.  In a generic sense, I feel schools need more accountability and/or competition.  While I'm in favor of school choice (ie competition), and realize its maybe not considered PC, I don't think it gets to the root of the problem.  Honestly, just curious about your opinion, not trying to debate you.


The best thing we can do for education is have a fair and just society that’s a meritocracy.  The number 1 indication of success in school for kids is their parents education level.  Since blacks and other minorities have been oppressed by systemic racism we have yet to excel academically in the USA in large numbers. There isn’t an inherent problem with people of African descent learning academics because their ancestors created the first universities-the problem is systemic racism and de facto segregation.  We also need culturally and socially relevant education because folks are tired about learning lies about great white men.

As for myself, I was a founding board member of KIPP Bayview Academy and that model works well for the poorest of kids-essentially keep kids in school from sun up to sun down and away from their dysfunctional home environments;
I was also a founding board member of Escuela Bilingue Internacional an Independent IB school in Oakland.  My daughter is good friends with the daughter of Kos from the Daily Kos so we started a school for our kids. However, I left after a few years because many of my liberal friends who talked the talk were ultimately full of shit when it came to giving scholarships and support to disenfranchised kids.  Saddest thing ever and my first experience with liberal racism/classism. 

I have recently purchased a building in Tallahassee, FL to start a small independent school for disenfranchised youth.  My school will be a hybrid of the KIPP and IB schools mentioned above.  The school is aprox from 1/2 mile from FSU, aprox. 2 miles from FAMU and across the street from a huge park and community rec center.  I have also purchased aprox 5 houses around FSU so my poorest students wont have to worry about housing if they go to FSU or FAMU for university.  

I don’t think I will solve the problem of access to education but I am hell bent on giving back to ALL kids that come from similar backgrounds as me.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Awe... does my posting facts make your vagina hurt?


I said with all due respect... wow


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> My mother died of cancer a couple of years ago... but thanks for asking.
> 
> Is the lady wrong?  The pussies in charge of these cities let morons block freeways, burn down businesses and walk up and down streets wearing no masks.  Aren't YOU tired of being told to do something the feral savages aren't doing?  You think THIS lady is responsible for the spike?  Do you see videos of HER walking out of department stores with an armful of stolen goods because security can't stop her?  Was SHE driving on meth, THC and Fentanyl while passing counterfeit money?  Could it have been HER holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly while robbing her?
> 
> A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.  Making an example can save lives.  Trump wants law, order and an economy that's robust and employs people.  Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos.  You decide which one YOU want.


No meth for her, but definitely opiods, anti-drepressants, bi-polar drugs, and all kinds of approved drugs that only her type takes.   It's just a mask. People act like they are in jail if asked to wear a mask.  Dumbest argument in history is to think that freedoms are violated because people are mandated to wear a mask


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I'd put up my credentials against his any day of the week.


Your point?  And your analysis lacks substance.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> What is practicing anti-racism?  If I treat all people fairly, with respect, provide opportunities to all in the workplace, and just try to follow the rule of treat others the way I want to be treated, is that practicing anti-racism or are you talking about something different?


It is not good enough to practice the golden rule...you must work at your implicit bias...

*Anti-racism* includes beliefs, actions, movements, and policies adopted or developed to oppose racism.

"Anti-racism can be defined as some form of focused and sustained action, which includes inter-cultural, inter-faith, multi-lingual and inter-abled (i.e. differently abled) communities with the intent to change a system or an institutional policy, practice, or procedure which has racist effects."[1]

Get this book to educate yourself...

This Book Is Anti-Racist: 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do The Work https://www.amazon.com/dp/0711245215/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2CJ9EbX53Y4PV


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The best thing we can do for education is have a fair and just society that’s a meritocracy.  The number 1 indication of success in school for kids is their parents education level.  Since blacks and other minorities have been oppressed by systemic racism we have yet to excel academically in the USA in large numbers. There isn’t an inherent problem with people of African descent learning academics because their ancestors created the first universities-the problem is systemic racism and de facto segregation.  We also need culturally and socially relevant education because folks are tired about learning lies about great white men.
> 
> As for myself, I was a founding board member of KIPP Bayview Academy and that model works well for the poorest of kids-essentially keep kids in school from sun up to sun down and away from their dysfunctional home environments;
> I was also a founding board member of Escuela Bilingue Internacional an Independent IB school in Oakland.  My daughter is good friends with the daughter of Kos from the Daily Kos so we started a school for our kids. However, I left after a few years because many of my liberal friends who talked the talk were ultimately full of shit when it came to giving scholarships and support to disenfranchised kids.  Saddest thing ever and my first experience with liberal racism/classism.
> ...


No, they weren't oppressed with systemic racism.  If they were, YOU wouldn't have gone to law school.  Thousands, if not millions, of black people would not have gone to law school, medical school or gotten MBAs.

Stop with the fucking, wouldn't victimhood.  Blacks aren't as educated because an excessive number are born into single family households and can't, or don't, value education.  Period.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> I said with all due respect... wow


I know what you said and I knew what you meant.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> White supremacy is an attitude... I have seen all races try and use their supremacy...  they are tea partiers, libertarian, Republicans, Democrats... whatever... ... Bottom line if you don’t practice anti-racism...you are a  racist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s more than attitude...it also lots of lies.  Columbus discovered America, Jesus is white, Greek mythology are all lies that are consistently told to make white folks supreme.

You want to end white supremacy?  Just tell the truth!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> No meth for her, but definitely opiods, anti-drepressants, bi-polar drugs, and all kinds of approved drugs that only her type takes.   It's just a mask. People act like they are in jail if asked to wear a mask.  Dumbest argument in history is to think that freedoms are violated because people are mandated to wear a mask


I never said I agreed with her... but her point is correct.  I wear a mask because it's the right thing to do.  Her point is that its bullshit to allow thugs and rioters to do whatever the fuck they want and then shame everyone else.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> No, they weren't oppressed with systemic racism.  If they were, YOU wouldn't have gone to law school.  Thousands, if not millions, of black people would not have gone to law school, medical school or gotten MBAs.
> 
> Stop with the fucking, wouldn't victimhood.  Blacks aren't as educated because an excessive number are born into single family households and can't, or don't, value education.  Period.


Thanks for adding support to my position genius.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Errr....if your limiting principle is first amendment activities should be allowed but other businesses are expendable, it would be an o.k. limiting principle.  But realize the implications of what you are saying.  First amendment restrictions must be content neutral.  That means Trump rallies, antiabortion pickets and even KKK marches must be o.k.  That also means 4th of July celebrations if privately organized must be allowed to go on.  The line of flag burning cases made very clear that this is speech, and as such is not subject to Constitutional restrictions.  Also protected under the 1st amendment is religion.  It means worship service,s funerals, and weddings (at least religious ones) are protected as well.
> 
> Next, even if the protests can't be limited that doesn't mean that government figures shouldn't say they aren't a great idea.  But some have even gone out of their way to encourage them as an exception, saying social justice is just way too important.  That had the secondary effect of convincing much of the public the experts weren't serious about anything (including masks) and they should just have at it.  So in a very real way, the protestor are ver responsible for what's happened.  As I wrote above, I think the primary driver of this is now private gatherings and short of Chinese style house arrest I'm not sure any lockdowns or mask orders will do anything.
> 
> Lastly, your accusation of racism is not only insulting but bigoted.  I'm a 4x minority and have experienced discrimination in my life 4 different ways.  Please check your privilege.  How many minority credits you got?


Here we go again with the passive voice. There is no “should be allowed” with respect to these protests because there is no person to either allow or not allow them. Unlike like Trump rallies in which a single person controls whether they will happen or not, there is nothing that can stop these protests from happening even when they violate the law. I agree with you that if a 100,000 Klan members want to march down Hollywood Blvd, I won’t complain about the impact on the pandemic. I even believe none of our leaders should schedule mass gatherings, and am grateful there is only one, and he doesn’t carry a lot of weight (figuratively speaking of course). I understand that our leaders also cannot do the impossible and stop a hundreds of thousands of people who decide to get together in a single place. I also understand there aren’t enough handcuffs and jail cells to handle the millions of those protesting civil rights violations nationwide, but there are plenty to deal with 20 Klan members who want to give it a shot. We also know from experience that government attempts to stop protests by shooting people with rubber bullets and tear gas only leads to billions in property damage. And you people claim there’s no benefit from the looting and vandalism caused by rioting. Sometimes practical realities dictate how our government enforces the law whether you like it or not.

Your interpretation of the 1st amendment is mind-bogglingly stupid. In your defense, it’s what happens when dotards with no idea what they’re talking about argue when they aren’t getting what they want.

Your freedom of religion non-sense argument is even worse, but I enjoy pointing out how dumb god people are. Your position has already been argued and rejected many times over. The shelter-in-place rules are neutral and apply equally to you god people and everyone else. You people think you’re entitled not only to equal treatment but also to special treatment and can do whatever they want because, well, god. It is such a joy to see your shock when you’re told god doesn’t mean s**t under the law, and you don’t get to mistreat other people, and you also don’t get to be treated better than anyone else. You just get to be treated the same.  If I can’t have my ACLU meeting, you can’t go to your church meeting to whine how unfair it is that gay folk get to eat a cake at their weddings and have it too. Woot woot. Thank, uh, god for Zoom


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> It is not good enough to practice the golden rule...you must work at your implicit bias...
> 
> *Anti-racism* includes beliefs, actions, movements, and policies adopted or developed to oppose racism.
> 
> ...


Here's a better one...


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Thanks for adding support to my position genius.


The perpetual victimhood is bullshit, Dre.  The opportunity to be successful is available and you're proof of it.  Maybe black folks need to spend less time feeling sorry for themselves and calling people "boot lickers" like everyone else.  Seems to me there's only 1 race that doesn't get it.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> It’s more than attitude...it also lots of lies.  Columbus discovered America, Jesus is white, Greek mythology are all lies that are consistently told to make white folks supreme.
> 
> You want to end white supremacy?  Just tell the truth!


"Jesus is white" is a lie?  How the fuck would you know?  How would anyone know?  Nobody here has seen Jesus and half don't believe he/she exists.

You want to end racism against blacks?  Try telling the truth, Dre.  And the truth is that people are hating blacks more and more because of the lack of accountability for anything.  Admit what the statistics are.  Stop running from them.  Stop blaming everyone else for your failures.  You see ANY other race doing that?  Stop using history as an excuse.  Stop acting like everyone else inherited 40 acres and a mule except you.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> No, they weren't oppressed with systemic racism.  If they were, YOU wouldn't have gone to law school.  Thousands, if not millions, of black people would not have gone to law school, medical school or gotten MBAs.
> 
> Stop with the fucking, wouldn't victimhood.  Blacks aren't as educated because an excessive number are born into single family households and can't, or don't, value education.  Period.


Racist.


----------



## Simisoccerfan (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The best thing we can do for education is have a fair and just society that’s a meritocracy.  The number 1 indication of success in school for kids is their parents education level.  Since blacks and other minorities have been oppressed by systemic racism we have yet to excel academically in the USA in large numbers. There isn’t an inherent problem with people of African descent learning academics because their ancestors created the first universities-the problem is systemic racism and de facto segregation.  We also need culturally and socially relevant education because folks are tired about learning lies about great white men.
> 
> As for myself, I was a founding board member of KIPP Bayview Academy and that model works well for the poorest of kids-essentially keep kids in school from sun up to sun down and away from their dysfunctional home environments;
> I was also a founding board member of Escuela Bilingue Internacional an Independent IB school in Oakland.  My daughter is good friends with the daughter of Kos from the Daily Kos so we started a school for our kids. However, I left after a few years because many of my liberal friends who talked the talk were ultimately full of shit when it came to giving scholarships and support to disenfranchised kids.  Saddest thing ever and my first experience with liberal racism/classism.
> ...


I agree with your comments about education.   Another thing that needs to be encouraged in society is the two parent household.  I have seen stats that show kids from single parent households struggle more in school and attend college less.   Regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or poltical party households with two parent's commited to their kids is a much better environment for academic success.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> It’s more than attitude...it also lots of lies.  Columbus discovered America, Jesus is white, Greek mythology are all lies that are consistently told to make white folks supreme.
> 
> You want to end white supremacy?  Just tell the truth!


History is “myths that were agreed upon”  by the dominant culture... Jesus Christ was probably a socialist Arab but people can’t picture that in their heads.

Get the book I mentioned  it’s very good...

This Book Is Anti-Racist: 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do The Work https://www.amazon.com/dp/0711245215/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2CJ9EbX53Y4PV


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> "Jesus is white" is a lie?  How the fuck would you know?  How would anyone know?  Nobody here has seen Jesus and half don't believe he/she exists.
> 
> You want to end racism against blacks?  Try telling the truth, Dre.  And the truth is that people are hating blacks more and more because of the lack of accountability for anything.  Admit what the statistics are.  Stop running from them.  Stop blaming everyone else for your failures.  You see ANY other race doing that?  Stop using history as an excuse.  Stop acting like everyone else inherited 40 acres and a mule except you.


Jesus was supposedly a Jew from Nazareth when it was a territory controlled by the Roman Empire..  Your homework for the day is to explain how to get "white" out of that.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Racist.


Good comeback, Ebola.  Full of statistics and evidence to prove me wrong.

Stop shitting the bed, you idiot.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Jesus was supposedly a Jew from Nazareth when it was a territory controlled by the Roman Empire..  Your homework for the day is to explain how to get "white" out of that.


Your homework is to prove to me how something exists because it was written in a book.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> The best thing we can do for education is have a fair and just society that’s a meritocracy.  The number 1 indication of success in school for kids is their parents education level.  Since blacks and other minorities have been oppressed by systemic racism we have yet to excel academically in the USA in large numbers.


The other big factor is marriage, but that would further take this thread down the rabbit hole with discussions of welfare and religions.  You also can't get to a meritocracy so long as elites continue to marry elites.  In the 50s/60s business men would marry (or at least have affairs) with their secretaries.  But now the power lawyer or the power doctor won't marry someone beneath their income.  This is in part being driven by women,who don't want to divide up their resources by carrying a man who might not amount to much.  Add to that our society's fixation with defering to experts, licensing to preserve the professional classes, credentialism, and status preferences with elite schools and it's a recipe for a permanent mandarin class.  You see this behavior among even African Americans and Hispanics at private or elite elementary/middle/high schools, or President Obama and his wife.  In my own circles, they aren't marrying the poor girl just come over on an asymlum claim...they are marrying the doctor, lawyer or sports athlete that made something of themselves and can contribute something to the partnership.  The Trump populism is a reaction to this mandarin meritocracy.  It's also why many of us have our kids involved in club soccer: as a ticket to college admissions and scholarships and admission into the upper circles, as opposed to the rest of the world where soccer is only a mechanism for either fun or a professional career.



EOTL said:


> If a bunch of you tiki torchers decide to get together again and roast some marshmallows over a burning cross in Charlottesville, I promise I won’t complain how its your fault that my kid can’t play team sports for a while.


I propose a big fourth of July tournment "to honor the flag and America".  It will be accomapnied by speeches before the games reflecting the American spirit.  Player's uniforms all have something on them dedicated to the American journey and each team named after a major historical event, from the Constitution, to emmancipation, to women's suffrage. 1st amendment.  Can't be limited

.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> History is “myths that were agreed upon”  by the dominant culture... Jesus Christ was probably a socialist Arab but people can’t picture that in their heads.
> 
> Get the book I mentioned  it’s very good...
> 
> This Book Is Anti-Racist: 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do The Work https://www.amazon.com/dp/0711245215/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2CJ9EbX53Y4PV


Jesus was a Capricorn
He ate organic food
He believed in love and peace
And never wore no shoes
Long hair, beard and sandals
And a funky bunch of friends
Reckon may just nail Him up
If He come down again'
Cause everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Prove they can be better than at any time they please
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on
You can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me

--K Kristofferson


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> We also know from experience that government attempts to stop protests by shooting people with rubber bullets and tear gas only leads to billions in property damage. And you people claim there’s no benefit from the looting and vandalism caused by rioting. Sometimes practical realities dictate how our government enforces the law whether you like it or not.
> 
> Your interpretation of the 1st amendment is mind-bogglingly stupid. In your defense, it’s what happens when dotards with no idea what they’re talking about argue when they aren’t getting what they want.


You're funny.  One of my specialities in Con Law (I've studied with the best) and it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about.  You've basically argued for mob rule and the destruction of the rule of law because basically the loudest voices have a veto.  That's exactly one of the things the FF feared and why they put the first amendment in place.  It is a recipe for tyranny.  It's nice when the mask slips from extremists (on the right or left) and they reveal their true nature.  As for effectiveness, while true they can't arrest and put in jail everyone, they certainly can either suppress it, negotiate out of it (the CHOP is shutting down) but at a minimum condemn it, which not only have Democratic leaders not done but some have actively encouraged it as an exception to pandemic rules.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> The perpetual victimhood is bullshit, Dre.  The opportunity to be successful is available and you're proof of it.  Maybe black folks need to spend less time feeling sorry for themselves and calling people "boot lickers" like everyone else.  Seems to me there's only 1 race that doesn't get it.


Outlaw FYI, the only race is the HUMAN race. The race that you speak of is a fallacy created by white men.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Outlaw FYI, the only race is the HUMAN race. The race that you speak of is a fallacy created by white men.


Oh, so black people are arguing for HUMAN lives to matter.  Good to know, Dre.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You're funny.  One of my specialities in Con Law (I've studied with the best) and it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about.  You've basically argued for mob rule and the destruction of the rule of law because basically the loudest voices have a veto.  That's exactly one of the things the FF feared and why they put the first amendment in place.  It is a recipe for tyranny.  It's nice when the mask slips from extremists (on the right or left) and they reveal their true nature.  As for effectiveness, while true they can't arrest and put in jail everyone, they certainly can either suppress it, negotiate out of it (the CHOP is shutting down) but at a minimum condemn it, which not only have Democratic leaders not done but some have actively encouraged it as an exception to pandemic rules.


 p.s. I used to be an ACLU member when it stood for the defense of liberties, the Constitution, and the first amendment.  It's taken an unfortunate turn into post modern thought which as you've shown isn't a defense of liberty or freedom, but a prescription for tyranny.  Sad.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You're funny.  One of my specialities in Con Law (I've studied with the best) and it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about.  You've basically argued for mob rule and the destruction of the rule of law because basically the loudest voices have a veto.  That's exactly one of the things the FF feared and why they put the first amendment in place.  It is a recipe for tyranny.  It's nice when the mask slips from extremists (on the right or left) and they reveal their true nature.  As for effectiveness, while true they can't arrest and put in jail everyone, they certainly can either suppress it, negotiate out of it (the CHOP is shutting down) but at a minimum condemn it, which not only have Democratic leaders not done but some have actively encouraged it as an exception to pandemic rules.


I studied Con Law with Amar.  Have won several cases under section 1983 aka The Klu Klux Klan Act.  Who’d you study under and what’s your constitutional specialty?


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Here is the Truth about Outlaw. Outlaw doesn’t measure his  success by what  he does FOR people, he measures it by what he does AGAINST people he doesn’t like.  That is why he sees himself  as being “successful “. This is why Outlaw  will never abandon his principles. Outlaw tormenting other people sustains him.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> My mother died of cancer a couple of years ago... but thanks for asking.
> 
> Is the lady wrong?  The pussies in charge of these cities let morons block freeways, burn down businesses and walk up and down streets wearing no masks.  Aren't YOU tired of being told to do something the feral savages aren't doing?  You think THIS lady is responsible for the spike?  Do you see videos of HER walking out of department stores with an armful of stolen goods because security can't stop her?  Was SHE driving on meth, THC and Fentanyl while passing counterfeit money?  Could it have been HER holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly while robbing her?
> 
> A couple of bullets to 1-2 heads would have solved this problem very early.  Making an example can save lives.  Trump wants law, order and an economy that's robust and employs people.  Libtards and their media want hate, rage, and chaos.  You decide which one YOU want.


...yeah, but they're "woke"


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 26, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> Unless you have stayed at home the whole time, you probably already know and came into contact with someone that is infected and they just don't realize it.   The good news is divide the death percentages by 10.
> 
> "CDC Director Robert Redfield on Thursday said the number of coronavirus infections in the U.S. could be 10 times higher than the confirmed case count — meaning a total of more than 20 million.  "Our best estimate right now is for every case reported there were actually 10 other infections,” Redfield said during a call with reporters, referencing data from antibody tests that show who has been exposed to the virus. ""
> 
> ...


The key word is "could be".  Oh, and there could be a giant earthquake in California tomorrow.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Here is the Truth about Outlaw. Outlaw doesn’t measure his  success by what  he does FOR people, he measures it by what he does AGAINST people he doesn’t like.  That is why he sees himself  as being “successful “. This is why Outlaw  will never abandon his principles. Outlaw tormenting other people sustains him.


You're a fucking moron.


----------



## Soccerfan2 (Jun 26, 2020)

Simisoccerfan said:


> I agree with your comments about education.   Another thing that needs to be encouraged in society is the two parent household.  I have seen stats that show kids from single parent households struggle more in school and attend college less.   Regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or poltical party households with two parent's commited to their kids is a much better environment for academic success.


Most importantly, very early childhood education. The support has to start in the years before age 5.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> It’s more than attitude...it also lots of lies.  Columbus discovered America, Jesus is white, Greek mythology are all lies that are consistently told to make white folks supreme.
> 
> You want to end white supremacy?  Just tell the truth!


If you like your Dr.....,,,


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I studied Con Law with Amar.  Have won several cases under section 1983 aka The Klu Klux Klan Act.  Who’d you study under and what’s your constitutional specialty?


Tribe and Freid among others.  1st Amendment.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 26, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> That doesn't mean trending up.   The daily rate of deaths in the US is trending down.   I gave you the graphic.


We are now using better therapeutics and know how to best help patients, rates should be going down.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Tribe and Freid among others.  1st Amendment.


p.s. I was also involved in writing the Russian Constitution.  Didn't go so hot.  They didn't listen to our advice to limit their presidential term.  The reason they failed to listen, though I can't reveal the details of the story, was in fact in part racism.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You're a fucking moron.


No Homo but acting like a dick won’t make yours bigger.. how is the micro penis today?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> No Homo but acting like a dick won’t make yours bigger.. how is the micro penis today?


Ask your mother... she never complains.

By the way, which number profile is this for you here?


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 26, 2020)

Simisoccerfan said:


> I agree with your comments about education.   Another thing that needs to be encouraged in society is the two parent household.  I have seen stats that show kids from single parent households struggle more in school and attend college less.   Regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or poltical party households with two parent's commited to their kids is a much better environment for academic success.


The divorce rate is at 52%, so 52% of students struggle?  I have seen better parenting from a single parent household than a two parent household. It really depends on the family.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Good, that’s what you idiots deserve. If you want to live vicariously through your kids, put on your mask and stay home.
> 
> There is no stopping protests. Period. Get over it. The Governor is not going to shoot and tear people and he shouldn’t. Protests are not an excuse for you and your mostly racist anti-science moron friends to continue being idiots about the things you actually can control. I get that you don’t believe that systemic racism and police brutality justify protesting and the collateral covid damage that will inevitably result from it. Well, too bad, that is out of your control. At any rate, millions upon millions of people disagree with you, whereas there are only a handful of racists in CA who think protests are a great excuse to get a haircut. But like you said, there is no one-size-fits all solution, so protests can happen because this is not a police state and actual and real constitutional concerns exist about trying to stop them even if you don’t use bullets and tear gas. You going to Applebees or kiddie team sports right now, well, that is just stupid.
> 
> ...


"There is no stopping protests" WTF? ...there you go again simpleton...the moronic little games you dummies always play...conflating any objections to killing, assaulting, damaging, burning, stealing, looting rioting etc.,  with an objection to "Protests", just like you dummies always conflate objections to illegal immigration with legal immigration...then you have idiots like espola and ilk nodding in bovine agreement while giving each other reach-a-rounds. This thread has literally become a discredited democrat clown car of lefty morons on display.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Your freedom of religion non-sense argument is even worse, but I enjoy pointing out how dumb god people are. Your position has already been argued and rejected many times over.


BOOYAH!!!  NDNY just issued an injunction because NY discriminated in favor of the protests against religious worship.  Yeah, it's only district court and it doesn't go too far into the outdoor/indoor distinction but so much for your criticism.


----------



## Simisoccerfan (Jun 26, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> The divorce rate is at 52%, so 52% of students struggle?  I have seen better parenting from a single parent household than a two parent household. It really depends on the family.


Get your facts right.  Most studies say the current divorce rate is 39%.  And no where did I say that every kid from a single parent household struggles.  Plenty of kids thrive despite their setting.  But stats due show that in general kids in two parent households are far more likely to have academic success and attend college.   The same stats show that parent's education level also has a strong influence on academic success.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Ask your mother... she never complains.
> 
> By the way, which number profile is this for you here?


They  ran out of  toilet paper because of you constant posting.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The other big factor is marriage, but that would further take this thread down the rabbit hole with discussions of welfare and religions.  You also can't get to a meritocracy so long as elites continue to marry elites.  In the 50s/60s business men would marry (or at least have affairs) with their secretaries.  But now the power lawyer or the power doctor won't marry someone beneath their income.  This is in part being driven by women,who don't want to divide up their resources by carrying a man who might not amount to much.  Add to that our society's fixation with defering to experts, licensing to preserve the professional classes, credentialism, and status preferences with elite schools and it's a recipe for a permanent mandarin class.  You see this behavior among even African Americans and Hispanics at private or elite elementary/middle/high schools, or President Obama and his wife.  In my own circles, they aren't marrying the poor girl just come over on an asymlum claim...they are marrying the doctor, lawyer or sports athlete that made something of themselves and can contribute something to the partnership.  The Trump populism is a reaction to this mandarin meritocracy.  It's also why many of us have our kids involved in club soccer: as a ticket to college admissions and scholarships and admission into the upper circles, as opposed to the rest of the world where soccer is only a mechanism for either fun or a professional career.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the great joys of living in a civilized democratic society these days is that society tends to sort out what is important (protesting for civil rights) and what is not (Klan rallies and youth soccer tournaments). If you want to break the law holding a soccer tournament, please make sure more people attend than there are handcuffs, and verify the property owner is ok with the $25k fine. We protesters have our $200 each ready to go in the unlikely event we’re the unlucky few the po po manage to catch if they try. We also aren’t stupid enough to hold a protest somewhere that’s gonna get someone into trouble.

As for your “con law is one of my specialties”, I’m sorry but you come across as a non-practicing attorney at most and, more likely, someone with a poli sci degree and maybe a masters in “legal history.” Regardless, studying under some of the best con law scholars is no substitute for actually being one of them. I don’t really need to debate you on the Constitution because I know.  Everyone who knows anything and reads what you write knows.

However, just to rub in your face how wrong you are and how right I am, here’s your buddy Larry T calling me personally and all my protestor friends patriots: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/911978012245057536
I am honored that someone you hold in such high regard is so supportive. Oh, and here he is calling your sad little diaper-wearing tangerine an awful person for holding his Tulsa rally:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274662293809385473
In other words, I knew Larry Tribe. Larry Tribe was a friend of mine and you, ma’am, you’re no Larry Tribe. Jack Kennedy either, obviously, just to make sure you get the joke.

I love Larry because me and him are simpatico, which makes him a lot more useful for me in a debate than just name dropping. And as an aside, Amar’s great too. Both Amars actually.

Do you want to keep saying stupid things about the Constitution so I can keep quoting your esteemed mentor Larry Tribe to prove you wrong? This seems like a really fun new game.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> They  ran out of  toilet paper because of you constant posting.


Is your dumb ass replying to the correct post?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> One of the great joys of living in a civilized democratic society these days is that society tends to sort out what is important (protesting for civil rights) and what is not (Klan rallies and youth soccer tournaments). If you want to break the law holding a soccer tournament, please make sure more people attend than there are handcuffs, and verify the property owner is ok with the $25k fine. We protesters have our $200 each ready to go in the unlikely event we’re the unlucky few the po po manage to catch if they try. We also aren’t stupid enough to hold a protest somewhere that’s gonna get someone into trouble.
> 
> As for your “con law is one of my specialties”, I’m sorry but you come across as a non-practicing attorney at most and, more likely, someone with a poli sci degree and maybe a masters in “legal history.” Regardless, studying under some of the best con law scholars is no substitute for actually being one of them. I don’t really need to debate you on the Constitution because I know.  Everyone who knows anything and reads what you write knows.
> 
> ...


He worked for Al Gore.  You remember Al, he invented this here internets!  Did you think he'd say something positive about Trump?


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Do you want to keep saying stupid things about the Constitution so I can keep quoting your esteemed mentor Larry Tribe to prove you wrong? This seems like a really fun new game.


Wow reading comprehension.  Clearly he never taught you to read in detail.  Don't know how you ever got through law school.  I never said he was my mentor.  If anything I vehemently disagreed with a good portion of what he said, particularly when it came to the Commerce clause stuff. The question asked was who did I study under.  I answered, among others.  From the references you can figure out where I went to law school.  And for the record, a court just sustained my argument with an injunction.  Where'd you go again?  Who'd you study with?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> It is not good enough to practice the golden rule...you must work at your implicit bias...
> 
> *Anti-racism* includes beliefs, actions, movements, and policies adopted or developed to oppose racism.
> 
> ...


No thanks, this senseless drivel works best for you self-hating lefties...If it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the Bible along with a healthy dose of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> BOOYAH!!!  NDNY just issued an injunction because NY discriminated in favor of the protests against religious worship.  Yeah, it's only district court and it doesn't go too far into the outdoor/indoor distinction but so much for your criticism.


Indeed, like I’ve been saying, if the Klan - including their Christian comrades - wants to organize an outdoor rally, go for it. Their pastor is just as dumb and malicious as Trump. 

Look, misrepresenting what cases say might work for the weak-minded fools that you people normally associate with, but me and my friend Larry T. know the truth. I’m a patriot, while you people are divisive.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> No thanks, this senseless drivel works best for you self-hating lefties...If it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the Bible along with a healthy dose of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.


I can’t rawdog America the way Trump does.  I think you need $130,000 to go rawdog.


*Trump’s DOJ asks the Supreme Court to strip health care from 23 million people*
The government’s arguments are ridiculous.

There’s a fucking pandemic and this asshat is taking health care away

Living in America is calling the police that could kill someone and call an ambulance that could bankrupt someone.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Look, misrepresenting what cases say might work for the weak-minded fools that you people normally associate with, but me and my friend Larry T. know the truth. I’m a patriot, while you people are divisive.


Social Justice 123
I want to be PC!
It's just the way for me to be...and you!
Your hateful slurs are through.
I call woo woo on you
we'll fight you til your PC black and blue.
We are language police.  Fighting bigotry!
Your hateful words can suck our t--ds cause it's PC for me....and You!

Yeah I know.  Too clever by a half.  It will go over your head.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> No thanks, this senseless drivel works best for you self-hating lefties...If it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the Bible along with a healthy dose of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.


Lazy


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Thanks for adding support to my position genius.


Your position is flawed and prejudiced...it's more like an opinion which you are entitled to in our Country...the greatest in the world actually, where folks of all races risk their life and limb, and those of their loved ones, to come to. 

The American Dream...maybe spend a little more time focusing on what you have...rather than what you have not. I would love to teach a class at your school.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> I can’t rawdog America the way Trump does.  I think you need $130,000 to go rawdog.
> 
> 
> *Trump’s DOJ asks the Supreme Court to strip health care from 23 million people*
> ...


Police don't kill you unless you're a stupid criminal.

The only people that have to pay for an ambulance are those that work and have something to lose.  The rest just ignore the bill and get away with it.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Here is the Truth about Outlaw. Outlaw doesn’t measure his  success by what  he does FOR people, he measures it by what he does AGAINST people he doesn’t like.  That is why he sees himself  as being “successful “. This is why Outlaw  will never abandon his principles. Outlaw tormenting other people sustains him.


Yeah, I don’t know what’s wrong with that guy.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Lazy


I know right, not much commitment, energy and depth needed to read the the Bible and Founding Docs...unlike those scholarly SJW screeds...on such a higher level


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Wow reading comprehension.  Clearly he never taught you to read in detail.  Don't know how you ever got through law school.  I never said he was my mentor.  If anything I vehemently disagreed with a good portion of what he said, particularly when it came to the Commerce clause stuff. The question asked was who did I study under.  I answered, among others.  From the references you can figure out where I went to law school.  And for the record, a court just sustained my argument with an injunction.  Where'd you go again?  Who'd you study with?


So you are a non-practicer. Don’t worry, I too look back fondly on those heady days of law school, especially the tense intellectual discussions about the breadth and limits of the commerce clause. If only I could have one more evening by Larry T’s fireside debating whether one state can prohibit raw milk carriers from crossing state lines. But unfortunately, the past is the past regardless of how much I try to define myself by my law professors. Like people here claim, I’m now just a lowly homeless person (patriot really) using the computer at a WA state public library, although I was forced to temporarily migrate out of the CHAZ zone.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Your position is flawed and prejudiced...it's more like an opinion which you are entitled to in our Country...the greatest in the world actually, where folks of all races risk their life and limb, and those of their loved ones, to come to.
> 
> The American Dream...maybe spend a little more time focusing on what you have...rather than what you have not. I would love to teach a class at your school.


No, you are full of shit because your statement is conclusory?  I would love to hear how my position is flawed and prejudiced.  How can you teach kids, if you can’t support your weak ass conclusions?


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> So you are a non-practicer. Don’t worry, I too look back fondly on those heady days of law school, especially the tense intellectual discussions about the breadth and limits of the commerce clause. If only I could have one more evening by Larry T’s fireside debating whether one state can prohibit raw milk carriers from crossing state lines. But unfortunately, the past is the past regardless of how much I try to define myself by my law professors. Like people here claim, I’m now just a lowly homeless person (patriot really) using the computer at a WA state public library, although I was forced to temporarily migrate out of the CHAZ zone.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Police don't kill you unless you're a stupid criminal.
> 
> The only people that have to pay for an ambulance are those that work and have something to lose.  The rest just ignore the bill and get away with it.


All that shit your talking and I bet you’re a trust fund kid.  How much did you inherit buddy?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Social Justice 123
> I want to be PC!
> It's just the way for me to be...and you!
> Your hateful slurs are through.
> ...


It must hurt that you idol worship (or is it worshipped now?) a dude who knows I’m a patriot.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Racist.


Bigot.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> It is not good enough to practice the golden rule...you must work at your implicit bias...
> 
> *Anti-racism* includes beliefs, actions, movements, and policies adopted or developed to oppose racism.
> 
> ...


I don’t need to read a book to know right from wrong, not be a shit-bag person, and what it is to do the right thing.  I’m sure it’s an interesting read.  As far as implicit bias...Politics anyone????  Everyone has it, will always have it, it’s a product of our life, experiences, relationships, etc.  You are presenting bias in your post.  All groups have bias and prejudice against others, just look at this conversation, look at this board...everyone of us has prejudice against something...we all have feelings, thoughts and beliefs. But we also have choice, free-will, and are accountable for our actions.  You can act different than you may feel.  We have all done stuff we may not have wanted to do, but did it because it was the right thing to do.  We are responsible for how we act.  Because I don’t believe what you believe, does not make me a racist, or somebody that supports racism.  This BS and absolutes of if you don’t believe exactly what I do, or this group does, makes you a this or that is the most divisive and prejudice stuff out there.  Let’s cancel that BS or keep it coming depending on who you are.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> It must hurt that you idol worship (or is it worshipped now?) a dude who knows I’m a patriot.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Dam right!!!!









						Vax Lives Matter: Melinda Gates Says Black Americans Should Get COVID-19 Vaccine First, Hubby Bill Gates Flames Incompetent Trump
					

Bill Gates and Melinda Gates say Black people should get COVID vaccine first in the United States




					bossip.com
				




She also said Outlaw should not get it because of his micro penis should not repopulate the Earth.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


>


In fact, I’m seriously considering adding a footer to all my future posts as follows:

EOTL
American Patriot per the Undisputed Constitutional Scholar of the World Laurence Tribe

What ya’ll think?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> No thanks, this senseless drivel works best for you self-hating lefties...If it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the Bible along with a healthy dose of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.


If you support the Bible then you should support Black Lives Matters.  I think Jesus may have been one of the first black men wrongly executed by whites.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I don’t need to read a book to know right from wrong, not be a shit-bag person, and what it is to do the right thing.  I’m sure it’s an interesting read.  As far as implicit bias...Politics anyone????  Everyone has it, will always have it, it’s a product of our life, experiences, relationships, etc.  You are presenting bias in your post.  All groups have bias and prejudice against others, just look at this conversation, look at this board...everyone of us has prejudice against something...we all have feelings, thoughts and beliefs. But we also have choice, free-will, and are accountable for our actions.  You can act different than you may feel.  We have all done stuff we may not have wanted to do, but did it because it was the right thing to do.  We are responsible for how we act.  Because I don’t believe what you believe, does not make me a racist, or somebody that supports racism.  This BS and absolutes of if you don’t believe exactly what I do, or this group does, makes you a this or that is the most divisive and prejudice stuff out there.  Let’s cancel that BS or keep it coming depending on who you are.


Lazy___________


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> In fact, I’m seriously considering adding a footer to all my future posts as follows:
> 
> EOTL
> American Patriot per the Undisputed Constitutional Scholar of the World Laurence Tribe
> ...


Totally do it man.  It would be epic.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> In fact, I’m seriously considering adding a footer to all my future posts as follows:
> 
> EOTL
> American Patriot per the Undisputed Constitutional Scholar of the World Laurence Tribe
> ...


I think you're a pompous idiot who thinks his opinions are the only opinions worth hearing.

Why do you ask?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> All that shit your talking and I bet you’re a trust fund kid.  How much did you inherit buddy?


I inherited a lot of good looks and a micro penis that "soccermaverick's" mother is quite fond of.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Lazy___________


Haha...nailed it. Intolerant, closed minded much? Get over your “woke” self.  Stop using phrases you just picked up this week.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> It must hurt that you idol worship (or is it worshipped now?) a dude who knows I’m a patriot.


Antonio Brown was a Patriot, too.  Another stupid, black athlete that can't keep a job because of his mouth.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> All that shit your talking and I bet you’re a trust fund kid.  How much did you inherit buddy?


We are all Americans...difference being:

Some see it as we're all given ladders, and Government ensures we all have the same opportunity to get one...some ladders have more rungs than others, life isn't fair...but how fast and high we climb is determined by individual responsibility and choices. Equal opportunity not equal outcome.

Others see it as a rope...you hold on and rely on Government, political parties and others to pull them up...individually unable to control how high and fast...expecting an equal outcome.

I'd love to teach ladders and ropes at your school.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Dam right!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your mom makes me eat a lot of pineapple.  I'm not sure why.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> BOOYAH!!!  NDNY just issued an injunction because NY discriminated in favor of the protests against religious worship.  Yeah, it's only district court and it doesn't go too far into the outdoor/indoor distinction but so much for your criticism.


I was in front of judge Keagan when he was presiding over Chapo’s case.  My client walked.  Chapo should’ve called me.  A lot of big named dudes from your school have me on speed dial because they are scared of trial.  I definitely didn’t learn how to try cases in law school though!


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> We are all Americans...difference being:
> 
> Some see it as we're all given ladders, and Government ensures we all have the same opportunity to get one...some ladders have more rungs than others, life isn't fair...but how fast and high we climb is determined by individual responsibility and choices. Equal opportunity not equal outcome.
> 
> ...


Do you think we live in a meritocracy?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> If you support the Bible then you should support Black Lives Matters.  I think Jesus may have been one of the first black men wrongly executed by whites.


He was Semitic.  About as black as Yassir Arafat.   

You need to take your history classes from a real historian.   Not some neo-Marxist with a racist axe to grind.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You're a fucking moron.


FACT CHECK: True


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> We are now using better therapeutics and know how to best help patients, rates should be going down.


Best graphic so far...this is Florida, would like to see this one for CA...any graphic savvy takers?


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Best graphic so far...this is Florida, would like to see this one for CA...any graphic savvy takers?
> 
> View attachment 7935


Quick update for locals.  Seven Tesoro High School football team players have just tested positive for covid.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

N


dad4 said:


> He was Semitic.  About as black as Yassir Arafat.
> 
> You need to take your history classes from a real historian.   Not some neo-Marxist with a racist axe to grind.


He was a Falasha Jew.  Some of my European Jewish friends that work in the US State department make a point to adopt Falasha kids.
Moreover, Abraham the first Jew was black.  Moses was black and raised and educated in Egypt.  Egypt IS part of Africa that is colonized by Arabs/white.  No such thing as the Middle East either...just another political term to promote white supremacy.









						Beta Israel - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> He was Semitic.  About as black as Yassir Arafat.
> 
> You need to take your history classes from a real historian.   Not some neo-Marxist with a racist axe to grind.


Uh, Jesus was purple like Barney the dinosaur, and just as not real.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Do you think we live in a meritocracy?


Yes, especially as compared to your point on inheritance.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Best graphic so far...this is Florida, would like to see this one for CA...any graphic savvy takers?
> 
> View attachment 7935


Old news.  We know the virus hits the elderly.  We have known it for months.

The question is who transmits the virus, and how to limit transmission.  

IHME seems to think universal masks would help.  Their projections are now split.  One set of numbers if we all mask up, a different set of numbers if we don't.  The gap grows over time.  By Oct 1, the mask version has about 1/6 the daily death rate of the no mask version.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> I can’t rawdog America the way Trump does.  I think you need $130,000 to go rawdog.
> 
> 
> *Trump’s DOJ asks the Supreme Court to strip health care from 23 million people*
> ...


...can't imagine still wetting oneself over 3 years later.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Your mom makes me eat a lot of pineapple.  I'm not sure why.


At least my moms alive... your mom died because she couldn’t stand you.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Uh, Jesus was purple like Barney the dinosaur, and just as not real.


I'd rather be wrong and me than wrong and you...I'll stick with my position, enjoy.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ...can't imagine still wetting oneself over 3 years later.


A kid in my 9th grade gym class used to tell his mom to f-off  and smash his head into lockers when he lost in sports. He would scream and and call his mom a bitch.  Luckily a teacher noticed and referred him to a therapist who specialized ... I’m kidding ...his name is Outlaw and loves trump.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I'd rather be wrong and me than wrong and you...I'll stick with my position, enjoy.


If you don’t want to see me for the rest of eternity, you’re gonna need to stop being a racist.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> At least my moms alive... your mom died because she couldn’t stand you.



That’s some pretty hateful stuff right there...is that your “institutional bias” coming out against people who date your mom?

Fair question, yes?

Forgot to add...you should really read that book you were talking about.  I hear it’s good.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> At least my moms alive... your mom died because she couldn’t stand you.


It’s heart-warming to know I’m not the only person willing to go all the way with the bottom feeders. Speaking of that, am I the only one who’s noticed how much more respectful @Simisoccerfan has been here since I first took him out to the woodshed?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> N
> 
> He was a Falasha Jew.  Some of my European Jewish friends that work in the US State department make a point to adopt Falasha kids.
> Moreover, Abraham the first Jew was black.  Moses was black and raised and educated in Egypt.  Egypt IS part of Africa that is colonized by Arabs/white.  No such thing as the Middle East either...just another political term to promote white supremacy.
> ...


If dark skinned Jews were common in Palestine during the time of Caesar, wouldn't you expect enough intermarriage that it would show up in genetic studies of other Jewish populations?

Seems more likely that Jewish refugees brought their religion with them when they fled south after the Roman conquest and failed uprisings.  

Of course, that doesn't help if you are trying to prove that all good things came from one color of person.  But who needs a racist argument like that?


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> In fact, I’m seriously considering adding a footer to all my future posts as follows:
> 
> EOTL
> American Patriot per the Undisputed Constitutional Scholar of the World Laurence Tribe
> ...


I think you’re a legend in your own mind!


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> I think you’re a legend in your own mind!


When you’re right, you’re right.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> You're funny.  One of my specialities in Con Law (I've studied with the best) and it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about.  You've basically argued for mob rule and the destruction of the rule of law because basically the loudest voices have a veto.  That's exactly one of the things the FF feared and why they put the first amendment in place.  It is a recipe for tyranny.  It's nice when the mask slips from extremists (on the right or left) and they reveal their true nature.  As for effectiveness, while true they can't arrest and put in jail everyone, they certainly can either suppress it, negotiate out of it (the CHOP is shutting down) but at a minimum condemn it, which not only have Democratic leaders not done but some have actively encouraged it as an exception to pandemic rules.


I was trained by two buddies of mine in grade school when we were little minds but fresh and new and not brainwashed yet.  I debated with the best and it was all free.  Those two had a hard time with me because I was emotional, but made sense to them and we went at it and afterwards we played hoops and went at it some more.  The best debater was my lawyer friend.  Non emotional and most of the time was right.  However, he would give me my praise and told me I would be a great success some day and never let my speech handicap hold me back


----------



## Kicker4Life (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Best graphic so far...this is Florida, would like to see this one for CA...any graphic savvy takers?
> 
> View attachment 7935


Go check out @Kante ’s post in the Covid-19 thread.  Pretty insightful

maybe he can repost here


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> In fact, I’m seriously considering adding a footer to all my future posts as follows:
> 
> EOTL
> American Patriot per the Undisputed Constitutional Scholar of the World Laurence Tribe
> ...


You'd be a legend in your own mind. Tribe is unimpressive, being Scholarly may show he's intelligent...but, being a lefty shows he lacks wisdom. But hey, I'm sure your cat will be impressed.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> A kid in my 9th grade gym class used to tell his mom to f-off  and smash his head into lockers when he lost in sports. He would scream and and call his mom a bitch.  Luckily a teacher noticed and referred him to a therapist who specialized ... I’m kidding ...his name is Outlaw and loves trump.


I'm starting to think maybe you're just in love with me.  Are you still going with the "No Homo" from earlier?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> At least my moms alive... your mom died because she couldn’t stand you.


Your mom lives to service me.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> That’s some pretty hateful stuff right there...is that your “institutional bias” coming out against people who date your mom?
> 
> Fair question, yes?
> 
> Forgot to add...you should really read that book you were talking about.  I hear it’s good.


Woob, I appreciate the support, but what she and I have really doesn't qualify as "dating".


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> If you support the Bible then you should support Black Lives Matters.  I think Jesus may have been one of the first black men wrongly executed by whites.


I do think black lives matter (lowercase)...and I don't support Black Lives Matter (uppercase)...because they are Marxist LGBTQ etc. America hating radicals who don't hold the same values of most blacks, let alone care about all black lives...it's in their own words, research it. (Again, would love to teach one of your classes).

Which do you support... uppercase or lowercase?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> It’s heart-warming to know I’m not the only person willing to go all the way with the bottom feeders. Speaking of that, am I the only one who’s noticed how much more respectful @Simisoccerfan has been here since I first took him out to the woodshed?


I'd imagine you were willing to go all the way with most anyone available.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

Kicker4Life said:


> Go check out @Kante ’s post in the Covid-19 thread.  Pretty insightful
> 
> maybe he can repost here


10-4


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I was trained by two buddies of mine in grade school when we were little minds but fresh and new and not brainwashed yet.  I debated with the best and it was all free.  Those two had a hard time with me because I was emotional, but made sense to them and we went at it and afterwards we played hoops and went at it some more.  The best debater was my lawyer friend.  Non emotional and most of the time was right.  However, he would give me my praise and told me I would be a great success some day and never let my speech handicap hold me back


What'd he say about your typing?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If dark skinned Jews were common in Palestine during the time of Caesar, wouldn't you expect enough intermarriage that it would show up in genetic studies of other Jewish populations?
> 
> Seems more likely that Jewish refugees brought their religion with them when they fled south after the Roman conquest and failed uprisings.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't help if you are trying to prove that all good things came from one color of person.  But who needs a racist argument like that?


I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I highly recommend you visit upper and lower Egypt.  You can find Biblical stories inside the pyramids.  The last pyramid was built thousands of years before the first Jew Abraham was born.  Moreover, if you study Judaism you’d know that Moses going to Mt. Sinai and receiving the 10 commandments is mythology.  Moses new the laws of Egypt because he was raised there.

I also said earlier that the HUMAN race is the only race.  Most people of the world are people of color.  There’s an exhibit at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City that show Africans migrating to China and forming China.  During the ice age folks migrated from China to South America (Native Americans).

A few years ago, I did one of those genetic test and it appears that I also have a substantial amount of Neanderthal blood too.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I highly recommend you visit upper and lower Egypt.  You can find Biblical stories inside the pyramids.  The last pyramid was built thousands of years before the first Jew Abraham was born.  Moreover, if you study Judaism you’d know that Moses going to Mt. Sinai and receiving the 10 commandments is mythology.  Moses new the laws of Egypt because he was raised there.
> View attachment 7936
> I also said earlier that the HUMAN race is the only race.  Most people of the world are people of color.  There’s an exhibit at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City that show Africans migrating to China and forming China.  During the ice age folks migrated from China to South America (Native Americans).
> 
> A few years ago, I did one of those genetic test and it appears that I also have a substantial amount of Neanderthal blood too.


Then tell me, Dre, why do you support BLM when you know BLM does not support all black lives... let alone Human lives?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I do think black lives matter (lowercase)...and I don't support Black Lives Matter (uppercase)...because they are Marxist LGBTQ etc. America hating radicals who don't hold the same values of most blacks, let alone care about all black lives...it's in their own words, research it. (Again, would love to teach one of your classes).
> 
> Which do you support... uppercase or lowercase?


Let’s talk about Jesus...a black thug that was publicly executed.  Black Lives Matter!


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> If you don’t want to see me for the rest of eternity, you’re gonna need to stop being a racist.


Sure bigot. Huh, what an easy little mindless game you clowns play.


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

As long as I’m talking about how smart I am, has anyone noticed that it looks like there will be a lot fewer grandmas in Arizona in a few weeks? What do you think that might bode for the future of the AZ ECNL clubs?  Maybe @Desert Hound had an update?


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> What'd he say about your typing?


Well, my typing sucked because we had no spell check and it was typewriter.  Remember those things?  My writing skills sucked too.  I was a loser before I lost if that makes any sense.  Stuck in the system of "smartass smarty pants only can succeed in America."  I will have a "Sunday Service with EJ" this Sunday.  You guys have Jesus all wrong let me tell you all.  I want to help everyone out.  If we can all see who the real Jesus is, than maybe, just maybe we can turn this hate around.  I will start preparing my lesson.  I welcome the debate on, "Who is the real Jesus?"


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Wow... one of you dickheads wanna tell me how Kaepertrash was a good investment?









						Nike Announces Layoffs After $790 Million Loss
					

In a company-wide email on Thursday, Nike CEO John Donahoe said the brand will be cutting its workforce.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Let’s talk about Jesus...a black thug that was publicly executed.  Black Lives Matter!


I know why the others run from a fair question.  Why do you?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Well, my typing sucked because we had no spell check and it was typewriter.  Remember those things?  My writing skills sucked too.  I was a loser before I lost if that makes any sense.  Stuck in the system of "smartass smarty pants only can succeed in America."  I will have a "Sunday Service with EJ" this Sunday.  You guys have Jesus all wrong let me tell you all.  I want to help everyone out.  If we can all see who the real Jesus is, than maybe, just maybe we can turn this hate around.  I will start preparing my lesson.  I welcome the debate on, "Who is the real Jesus?"


When Jesus teaches violent black criminals how to comply when being arrested, maybe we can turn this all around.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Let’s talk about Jesus...a black thug that was publicly executed.  Black Lives Matter!





MacDre said:


> Let’s talk about Jesus...a black thug that was publicly executed.  Black Lives Matter!


Sure, since we differ on which, or in your case "certain", black lives matter. Let's move onto Jesus


MacDre said:


> No, you are full of shit because your statement is conclusory?  I would love to hear how my position is flawed and prejudiced.  How can you teach kids, if you can’t support your weak ass conclusions?


I see, you get an opinion and I don't...not sure the kids will benefit from the lesson. I'm sure they deserve better.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Let’s talk about Jesus...a black thug that was publicly executed.  Black Lives Matter!


Sure, since we obviously disagree on which, or in your case "certain", black lives matter.

Let's move onto Jesus where I think we may find agreement. I do agree with you that the only race is the HUMAN race...but, the race that you speak of is a fallacy created by black men. Although, I strongly disagree with your characterization of Jesus as a thug, in fact find it appalling. Lastly, we agree Jesus was publicly executed.

Again, I offer my services so your school isn't conducted in an echo chamber.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Bigot.


Please explain your response.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> If you support the Bible then you should support Black Lives Matters.  I think Jesus may have been one of the first black men wrongly executed by whites.


The Romans weren't all that fussy about race.  They executed anyone who they saw as a troublemaker.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Sure, since we differ on which, or in your case "certain", black lives matter. Let's move onto Jesus
> 
> I see, you get an opinion and I don't...not sure the kids will benefit from the lesson. I'm sure they deserve better.


@MacDre Looks like this response got away from me...see above, I conducted a cleanup on isle 6


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. I used to be an ACLU member when it stood for the defense of liberties, the Constitution, and the first amendment.  It's taken an unfortunate turn into post modern thought which as you've shown isn't a defense of liberty or freedom, but a prescription for tyranny.  Sad.


"...turn into post modern thought.."  How so?


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> You're a fucking moron.


q.e.d.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Please explain your response.




In response to your earlier one word response of "racist"...I just played your same little mindless game lefties always fall back on, that's all. Actually, found it to be boring and tiresome.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If dark skinned Jews were common in Palestine during the time of Caesar, wouldn't you expect enough intermarriage that it would show up in genetic studies of other Jewish populations?
> 
> Seems more likely that Jewish refugees brought their religion with them when they fled south after the Roman conquest and failed uprisings.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't help if you are trying to prove that all good things came from one color of person.  But who needs a racist argument like that?


Tell us more about the genetic makeup of Jewish populations.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I do think black lives matter (lowercase)...and I don't support Black Lives Matter (uppercase)...because they are Marxist LGBTQ etc. America hating radicals who don't hold the same values of most blacks, let alone care about all black lives...it's in their own words, research it. (Again, would love to teach one of your classes).
> 
> Which do you support... uppercase or lowercase?


Marxist?  In what way?


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Wow... one of you dickheads wanna tell me how Kaepertrash was a good investment?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is Kaepernick the only reason people are not buying athletic gear in the last few months?

Maybe Nike should follow their market and put out a line of coach-potato gear.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Marxist?  In what way?


I know, you want everyone to do research for you...another weak tactic of the left. OK, I'll play along just this one time.

In their own words...


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> In response to your earlier one word response of "racist"...I just played your same little mindless game lefties always fall back on, that's all. Actually, found it to be boring and tiresome.


My response was appropriate and yours was what - just trying to get even?  

I'll assume that you already know that "bigot" and "racist" have overlapping meanings.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I know, you want everyone to do research for you...another weak tactic of the left. OK, I'll play along just this one time.
> 
> In their own words...


Sucker.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

I want everyone to know that Jesus loves you 100%, no matter what someone else says about you.  100% bought & paid for.  Nothing, and I mean nothing you can do to earn a ticket to paradise.  I will say their is a reward system and those who have more today and cheated, they will have less and those with less now will have abundance in the next life.  That's what I've been told and I believe it and makes sense.  However, if you kill, steal, hurt or take matters into your own hands for todays catch, then todays catch is your reward.  The next life I hear is for eternity so choose wisely.  Eyes are watching in the spiritual relam. As we prepare for EJs lesson on Sunday ((some have asked me to teach a lesson about the real Jesus according to the bible and EJ), I would like all of us to prepare our  hearts to be a little light to the world.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Do you agree th


MicPaPa said:


> Sure, since we obviously disagree on which, or in your case "certain", black lives matter.
> 
> Let's move onto Jesus where I think we may find agreement. I do agree with you that the only race is the HUMAN race...but, the race that you speak of is a fallacy created by black men. Although, I strongly disagree with your characterization of Jesus as a thug, in fact find it appalling. Lastly, we agree Jesus was publicly executed.
> 
> Again, I offer my services so your school isn't conducted in an echo chamber.


Do you agree that the white folks that executed Jesus considered him a thug?  Are you suggesting Jesus was murdered for being a law abiding citizen?


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Sucker.


LOL! now videos in ones own words aren't as they seem...sure, I'm the sucker 

No response needed, I'm out.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> LOL! now videos in ones own words aren't as they seem...sure, I'm the sucker
> 
> No response needed, I'm out.


What was the source of that video, sucker?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Tell us more about the genetic makeup of Jewish populations.


I’m not an expert, but studying the genetic roots of Azkhanazi versus Sephardic Jewish heritage and genetics is a thing.  

I think if either group had a substantial amount of Ethiopian heritage, that would be interesting enough to mention in the science articles.  

For that matter, the first mention of a Jewish community in Ethiopia is post-diaspora.  Jesus didn’t come from the Ethiopian Jewish population because they didn’t exist yet.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I’m not an expert, but studying the genetic roots of Azkhanazi versus Sephardic Jewish heritage and genetics is a thing.
> 
> I think if either group had a substantial amount of Ethiopian heritage, that would be interesting enough to mention in the science articles.
> 
> For that matter, the first mention of a Jewish community in Ethiopia is post-diaspora.  Jesus didn’t come from the Ethiopian Jewish population because they didn’t exist yet.


Oh.  I thought from your post that you were an expert, or at least had studied the writings of experts.

Never mind.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

I found him.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 26, 2020)

This is not him.  Someone PM this one to me and was too afraid to post it.  I promise this is not the real Jesus.  I will share what I think he looked like at this Sundays's Service with EJ.  God Bless all of you, my brothers & sisters


----------



## Desert Hound (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think Jesus may have been one of the first black men wrongly executed by whites.





Copa9 said:


> Quick update for locals.  Seven Tesoro High School football team players have just tested positive for covid.


And every one of those football players will be just fine.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Oh.  I thought from your post that you were an expert, or at least had studied the writings of experts.
> 
> Never mind.


Here you go:

“Most likely, the Beta Israel arrived in Ethiopia between the first and sixth centuries, coming as merchants or artisans from various countries in the region.“









						The History of Ethiopian Jewry | My Jewish Learning
					

A history of the Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia.




					www.myjewishlearning.com
				




The community started a good 100 to 600 years too late for Joseph or Mary to have come from Ethiopia.   

If you prefer genetic analysis, it was mid first millenium:









						Evidence mounts of ancient Jewish roots of Beta Israel Ethiopian Jewry
					

Many historians are convinced that Ethiopian Jews are medieval converts from Christianity. But mounting genetic evidence, and new scholarly research, suggests the Jewish origins of the Beta Israel, who today live mostly in Israel, pre-dates Ashkenazi European Jewry.




					geneticliteracyproject.org
				




Either way, in 30 BCE there was no Sudanese or Ethiopian Jewish community for Joseph and Mary to have come from.    

The whole theory comes from racist pseudo-scholars in AA studies departments.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> What was the source of that video, sucker?


Wow! The source of the video was her and her own words racist...and sexist.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 26, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> “Most likely, the Beta Israel arrived in Ethiopia between the first and sixth centuries, coming as merchants or artisans from various countries in the region.“
> 
> ...


Well sourced and delivered point. Unfortunately, it's a waste of time...espola is an inch deep.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Is Kaepernick the only reason people are not buying athletic gear in the last few months?
> 
> Maybe Nike should follow their market and put out a line of coach-potato gear.


Apparently.  I remember you telling me how he was the big reason the stock jumped months ago.  Dummy.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Do you agree th
> 
> Do you agree that the white folks that executed Jesus considered him a thug?  Are you suggesting Jesus was murdered for being a law abiding citizen?


I'm still waiting for you to tell me which black person, that police killed, that wasn't a thug.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I'm still waiting for you to tell me which black person, that police killed, that wasn't a thug.


Jesus.


----------



## Soccermaverick (Jun 26, 2020)

Outlaw .... Tell me about Daddy...









						'I will not be muzzled like a mad dog': Face mask debate turns fierce in St. Lucie County
					

FORT PIERCE, Fla. (CBS12) – The debate over a proposed mandate for face masks in certain areas of St. Lucie County turned heated. "I will not be muzzled like a mad dog," said one man during the public comment session. "I see any of you without mask on I will personally call the police on you...




					cbs12.com
				




Did you disappoint him like you disappoint everyone here?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Damn... maybe we actually CAN defund police departments.









						'I'm leaving, and I'm just not coming back': Fed up with racism, Black Americans head overseas
					

Saying they feel cornered and powerless in the face of persistent racial and economic struggles in the USA, some Black Americans decide to settle abroad.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Outlaw .... Tell me about Daddy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you please find another man to crush on?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Is Kaepernick the only reason people are not buying athletic gear in the last few months?
> 
> Maybe Nike should follow their market and put out a line of coach-potato gear.


No, maybe the dyke has something to do with it.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Jesus.


Alton Sterling, Tamir Rice, Terence Crutcher, Sam Dubose, John Crawford, George Floyd, Philando Castile, Jamel Floyd, Laquan McDonald, Stephon Clark, Oscar Grant, Rayshard Brooks, etc.  All a bunch of thug hood rats.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Soccermaverick said:


> Outlaw .... Tell me about Daddy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funny that you posted this because this is where I was born.  This place is ass backwards.  It’s also home of the Navy Seals.

It’s a poor segregated migrant worker community.  The racial tension and segregation is so bad there’s mandatory bussing to integrate schools.  Half of the kids from Port St Lucie to Ft Pierce and vice versa.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Alton Sterling, Tamir Rice, Terence Crutcher, Sam Dubose, John Crawford, George Floyd, Philando Castile, Jamel Floyd, Laquan McDonald, Stephon Clark, Oscar Grant, Rayshard Brooks, etc.  All a bunch of thug hood rats.


Which of the above deserved the death penalty?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Which of the above deserved the death penalty?


That's not for me to say.  You tell me... which one would still be alive if they weren't criminals that refused to comply?


----------



## EOTL (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> This is not him.  Someone PM this one to me and was too afraid to post it.  I promise this is not the real Jesus.  I will share what I think he looked like at this Sundays's Service with EJ.  God Bless all of you, my brothers & sisters
> 
> View attachment 7942


They gave you the unfinished version.  Here is the final version that is currently on display in the hall of douches.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> That's not for me to say.  You tell me... which one would still be alive if they weren't criminals that refused to comply?


So you think death is a reasonable punishment for refusing to comply?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

EOTL said:


> They gave you the unfinished version.  Here is the final version that is currently on display in the hall of douches.
> View attachment 7945


What?!  No rainbow flags or naked men?  That's catastrophic, Warrior.  Get something phallic in their immediately!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> So you think death is a reasonable punishment for refusing to comply?


My God you run better than Bo Jackson.

It depends on the case but it can be.  All of these men died because they were incredibly stupid.  I know the cases... do you?  Pick one.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Look, Dre, another oppressed victim.  I wonder if his great, great, great grandfather was a slave.









						NYPD Seeks Suspect In Baseball Bat Attack Outside Home Depot In The Bronx
					

The NYPD wants the public's help identifying the suspect in a baseball bat attack. According to police, a 34-year-old man was out front of the Home Depot at Bronx Terminal Market at 8:10 p.m. on June 14 when the suspect walked up and hit him on the head with a bat. Katie Johnston reports.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> My God you run better than Bo Jackson.
> 
> It depends on the case but it can be.  All of these men died because they were incredibly stupid.  I know the cases... do you?  Pick one.


So the next time my wife or daughter refuses to comply with my order, should I get my gun and pop their asses?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> So the next time my wife or daughter refuses to comply with my order, should I get my gun and pop their asses?


I  knew you wouldn't do it.  Why not?  Why can't you discuss any of these cases?  It's okay... I've laid down the challenge a dozen times and nobody else has the balls to do it, either.  

Checkmate.  And THAT is why BLM and whining black people are not taken seriouslly.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I  knew you wouldn't do it.  Why not?  Why can't you discuss any of these cases?  It's okay... I've laid down the challenge a dozen times and nobody else has the balls to do it, either.
> 
> Checkmate.  And THAT is why BLM and whining black people are not taken seriouslly.


Says the guy that thinks death is a reasonable punishment for refusing to comply.  So, should I pop my wife and kid for refusing to comply too?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Says the guy that thinks death is a reasonable punishment for refusing to comply.  So, should I pop my wife and kid for refusing to comply too?


We're done here, Dre.  I still love ya... but there's no fucking way I'd ever retain your services.  Unbelievable... you can't argue a single case.

Well, I just rested mine on your chin.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> When Jesus teaches violent black criminals how to comply when being arrested, maybe we can turn this all around.


Philando Castile was not resisting or fleeing.  There was absolutely no criminal intent exhibited by him throughout this encounter. He was respectful and compliant based upon the instructions and orders he was given. He volunteered in good faith that he had a firearm – beyond what the law requires. He emphatically stated that he wasn't pulling it out. His movement was restricted by his own seat belt. He was accompanied, in his vehicle, by a woman and a young child. Philando Castile did not exhibit any intent, nor did he have any reason, to shoot Officer Yanez.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> This is not him.  Someone PM this one to me and was too afraid to post it.  I promise this is not the real Jesus.  I will share what I think he looked like at this Sundays's Service with EJ.  God Bless all of you, my brothers & sisters
> 
> View attachment 7942


That’s Jesus holding the .45.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> That's not for me to say.  You tell me... which one would still be alive if they weren't criminals that refused to comply?


Listen to the police and do what they say whey they say to do it and you won’t get shot no matter if you’re a lib or an intelligent employed sober person.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Says the guy that thinks death is a reasonable punishment for refusing to comply.  So, should I pop my wife and kid for refusing to comply too?


She might hit you black.


----------



## MacDre (Jun 26, 2020)

Clayton Bigsby-Sheriff Joe & Outlaws uncle tom black friend.


----------



## Frank (Jun 26, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> When Sheriff Joe and Outlaw enter the room you know things have taken a turn for the worst but when people respond to them, that is when I exit.  Goodbye!


add EOTL and Messy to that list


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

Keepermom2 said:


> When Sheriff Joe and Outlaw enter the room you know things have taken a turn for the worst but when people respond to them, that is when I exit.  Goodbye!


Thought that controlling  bitch would never leave.
Feel sorry for her husband and his ass.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Clayton Bigsby-Sheriff Joe & Outlaws uncle tom black friend.


I am no racist, I saw Rick James at the Fabulous Forum.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 26, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Clayton Bigsby-Sheriff Joe & Outlaws uncle tom black friend.


Too bad these snowflakes don’t have the sense of humor chapelle has.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 26, 2020)

Bad news!! OC had another day of more than 400 covid cases and close to 20 deaths.  A quarantine is coming again and this message board is about to blow up again with politically ranted messages that make no sense.   Better start drinking y’all!


----------



## Fact (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> We're done here, Dre.  I still love ya... but there's no fucking way I'd ever retain your services.  Unbelievable... you can't argue a single case.
> 
> Well, I just rested mine on your chin.


The guy is a poser and uses the race card to theaten police departments, at least that is what I got from reading bits and parts of his responses over the past month.  Pretty pathetic.  I saw that he was talking smack about the Atlanta shooting.  Originally he was saying that a taser was not lethal but he is so wrong that if he told that to a client it would be malpractice. Under Georgia law a taser is a lethal weapon and the DA confirmed it was a lethal weapon two weeks prior to the shooting.  Point is used properly by a cop it is not lethal but when used by a child abusing drunk womanizing criminal who points it at the face of an officer after using it on his partner to cause a concussion it is lethal.  Where is his law degree from?  Dude get off of your high horse and stop using the race card.  Your children will be better off knowing that their accomplishments are due to their hard work and skills instead of their race.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Philando Castile was not resisting or fleeing.  There was absolutely no criminal intent exhibited by him throughout this encounter. He was respectful and compliant based upon the instructions and orders he was given. He volunteered in good faith that he had a firearm – beyond what the law requires. He emphatically stated that he wasn't pulling it out. His movement was restricted by his own seat belt. He was accompanied, in his vehicle, by a woman and a young child. Philando Castile did not exhibit any intent, nor did he have any reason, to shoot Officer Yanez.


Philando was a crip gang member and had over 30 traffic offenses.  He carried a gun to protect himself from other black gang members... not whitey and not cops.  His girlfriend was a thug and the child was hers... not his.  The officer told him, 3 times, to stop reaching.  I don't know if I would have shot him, but that's really 1 of only 2 that I mentioned even remotely being a questionable shooting.  The media goes out of its way to hide criminal records but they're available if you do your homework.

By the way, you can't determine "intent" in the heat of the moment.  We STILL don't know what he was reaching for.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Frank said:


> add EOTL and Messy to that list


For the "worse"... not the worst.  Idiot.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 26, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Too bad these snowflakes don’t have the sense of humor chapelle has.


I wonder when Dave is going to apologize for playing the N__ger family's milkman and whitey.  I laughed my ass off, but fair is fair.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Philando was a crip gang member and had over 30 traffic offenses.  He carried a gun to protect himself from other black gang members... not whitey and not cops.  His girlfriend was a thug and the child was hers... not his.  The officer told him, 3 times, to stop reaching.  I don't know if I would have shot him, but that's really 1 of only 2 that I mentioned even remotely being a questionable shooting.  The media goes out of its way to hide criminal records but they're available if you do your homework.
> 
> By the way, you can't determine "intent" in the heat of the moment.  We STILL don't know what he was reaching for.


Those statements were made by the other police officer on the scene, the one looking in the passenger window when Castile was murdered.


----------



## espola (Jun 26, 2020)

espola said:


> Those statements were made by the other police officer on the scene, the one looking in the passenger window when Castile was murdered.


...which you would have known if you had done your homework


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 27, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Bad news!! OC had another day of more than 400 covid cases and close to 20 deaths.  A quarantine is coming again and this message board is about to blow up again with politically ranted messages that make no sense.   Better start drinking y’all!


They’ll try it. It won’t work. Not a political statement just a reality. People are quarantined fatigued and having seen the protestors out and about and still ongoing they won’t accept they need to go in but not others. One of the primary drivers of this anyway are private at home gatherings (in the ac) which authorities can’t stop short of Chinese style house arrests (my 20 something neighbors just had a kegger last night and son was practicing in a field yesterday near a full adult baseball game). And we have the 4th coming up and many people already have plans locked in not to mention that any restrictions against Private 4th celebrations might very well be 1st amendment violations (depending how structured) if no similar steps are taken against the protests. Lockdowns worked reasonably well the first time before because people were scared. Now they are tired and many of the younger ones clearly don’t care.  The low hanging fruit is govt can shut businesses, schools, youth sports but that’s not where the surge is coming from.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 27, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Bad news!! OC had another day of more than 400 covid cases and close to 20 deaths.  A quarantine is coming again and this message board is about to blow up again with politically ranted messages that make no sense.   Better start drinking y’all!


Especially since 7 of those were Tesoro High School football players.  Fall sports may be off the table soon.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> Philando Castile was not resisting or fleeing.  There was absolutely no criminal intent exhibited by him throughout this encounter. He was respectful and compliant based upon the instructions and orders he was given. He volunteered in good faith that he had a firearm – beyond what the law requires. He emphatically stated that he wasn't pulling it out. His movement was restricted by his own seat belt. He was accompanied, in his vehicle, by a woman and a young child. Philando Castile did not exhibit any intent, nor did he have any reason, to shoot Officer Yanez.


Beyond what the law requires? Are you sure about that?


----------



## MacDre (Jun 27, 2020)

Fact said:


> The guy is a poser and uses the race card to theaten police departments, at least that is what I got from reading bits and parts of his responses over the past month.  Pretty pathetic.  I saw that he was talking smack about the Atlanta shooting.  Originally he was saying that a taser was not lethal but he is so wrong that if he told that to a client it would be malpractice. Under Georgia law a taser is a lethal weapon and the DA confirmed it was a lethal weapon two weeks prior to the shooting.  Point is used properly by a cop it is not lethal but when used by a child abusing drunk womanizing criminal who points it at the face of an officer after using it on his partner to cause a concussion it is lethal.  Where is his law degree from?  Dude get off of your high horse and stop using the race card.  Your children will be better off knowing that their accomplishments are due to their hard work and skills instead of their race.


When did I use the race card?  Are you referring to my Neanderthal heritage?  I’m not a poser, I’m a COON!


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Especially since 7 of those were Tesoro High School football players.  Fall sports may be off the table soon.


I have been told from insiders that's a done deal.  I'm sure we know similar folks.  Online school too probably for fall.  I know one kid that took the GED, got a job and has been taking JC classes at 16 years old.  All online too and super easy.  His plan is to be a Jr in college when his friends graduate HS in two years. My other friends kid was going to be a Sr this coming online school year but has severe ADD and can;t learn online so he's dropping out early and going to a mechanics school.  Waste of time for so many who have other talents and can get on with their life.  He's had a job since he was 14 too.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> ...which you would have known if you had done your homework


And you should do your homework on the requirements of people with concealed carry liscences. You obviously aren't familiar with it.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I have been told from insiders that's a done deal.  I'm sure we know similar folks.  Online school too probably for fall.  I know one kid that took the GED, got a job and has been taking JC classes at 16 years old.  All online too and super easy.  His plan is to be a Jr in college when his friends graduate HS in two years. My other friends kid was going to be a Sr this coming online school year but has severe ADD and can;t learn online so he's dropping out early and going to a mechanics school.  Waste of time for so many who have other talents and can get on with their life.  He's had a job since he was 14 too.


Agreed. I don't see a full week of in person school happening this fall. That was one of three options San Diego unified is offering. Not saying I agree with schools being closed, I just don't see them opening full day at this point


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I have been told from insiders that's a done deal.  I'm sure we know similar folks.  Online school too probably for fall.


I'm hearing the same re football.  Unless full practices start soon, there's no way to get teams game ready  And with what's going on I don't see our governor allowing full contact no masks any time in the next few weeks.  There's some discussion about maybe a truncated season starting in October for schools which feed to college recruiting, or maybe pushing the season into winter/spring (though that decision isn't favored because of multisport athletes).

For schools, our local district met yesterday and is leaning heavily into an option for parents of online only, or 2 days on 2 days off.  The 2 days off will be homework due to staffing needs.  Teachers get the 5th day to correct take home work and plan lessons.  That seems the worst of both worlds for parents....risk having the kids drag it into the home, no effective child care, only ineffective learning.  Despite the economic contraction, pretty much all the private and religious schools in our area are now at full enrollment and not taking anyone else except for a few slots here and there, but otherwise at capacity to make spaced learning possible.

As to the club soccer season, i only see a 1/4 chance of it happening at this point, though I'm not ready to say it won't as I'm still waiting to see how things play out over the 4th.


----------



## espola (Jun 27, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Beyond what the law requires? Are you sure about that?


No, I am not sure.  I am not trained in police duties and I wasn't at the scene.

Those statements were made by the other police officer on the scene who was watching the whole thing through the passenger window.  You should ask him.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I'm hearing the same re football.  Unless full practices start soon, there's no way to get teams game ready  And with what's going on I don't see our governor allowing full contact no masks any time in the next few weeks.  There's some discussion about maybe a truncated season starting in October for schools which feed to college recruiting, or maybe pushing the season into winter/spring (though that decision isn't favored because of multisport athletes).
> 
> For schools, our local district met yesterday and is leaning heavily into an option for parents of online only, or 2 days on 2 days off.  The 2 days off will be homework due to staffing needs.  Teachers get the 5th day to correct take home work and plan lessons.  That seems the worst of both worlds for parents....risk having the kids drag it into the home, no effective child care, only ineffective learning.  Despite the economic contraction, pretty much all the private and religious schools in our area are now at full enrollment and not taking anyone else except for a few slots here and there, but otherwise at capacity to make spaced learning possible.
> 
> As to the club soccer season, i only see a 1/4 chance of it happening at this point, though I'm not ready to say it won't as I'm still waiting to see how things play out over the 4th.


Crazy world we live in.  I love California.  Elections have consequences and we are the state we are because of how we voted as a state.  You get what you vote for.  Rules are made to be followed.  Let's all challenge each to follow the rules.  Once we get the rules down, we can look at the LAWS and then try and follow the Laws with the rules so we can finally have some Order.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> No, I am not sure.  I am not trained in police duties and I wasn't at the scene.
> 
> Those statements were made by the other police officer on the scene who was watching the whole thing through the passenger window.  You should ask him.


No, you were the one that said volunteering his firearm was beyond what was required. That is an inaccurate statement from someone who is not knowledgeable on concealed carry requirements. You dont have to be trained in police duties to know that. So stop talking like you know what you are talking about.


----------



## espola (Jun 27, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> No, you were the one that said volunteering his firearm was beyond what was required. That is an inaccurate statement from someone who is not knowledgeable on concealed carry requirements. You dont have to be trained in police duties to know that. So stop talking like you know what you are talking about.


All I did was quote the officer on the scene.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I have been told from insiders that's a done deal.  I'm sure we know similar folks.  Online school too probably for fall.  I know one kid that took the GED, got a job and has been taking JC classes at 16 years old.  All online too and super easy.  His plan is to be a Jr in college when his friends graduate HS in two years. My other friends kid was going to be a Sr this coming online school year but has severe ADD and can;t learn online so he's dropping out early and going to a mechanics school.  Waste of time for so many who have other talents and can get on with their life.  He's had a job since he was 14 too.


Can you take your GED at 16? That doesn't appear to be allowed (link below). However, the same thing can be accomplished by filing a PSA and homeschooling. You can take about 2/3 of a full load for free at a JC and fulfill HS UC and NCAA requirements for admittance while accumulating college credits. I assume you can take a full load if you pay tuition. Not saying it didn't happen - just genuinely curious if that's an option for 16 year olds.






						California - GED
					






					ged.com
				



.


----------



## Red card (Jun 27, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Bad news!! OC had another day of more than 400 covid cases and close to 20 deaths.  A quarantine is coming again and this message board is about to blow up again with politically ranted messages that make no sense.   Better start drinking y’all!


20 deaths of people that are elderly and have morbidities.  that is the part that is the con.  5000 people die every day that dont have covid


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Can you take your GED at 16? That doesn't appear to be allowed (link below). However, the same thing can be accomplished by filing a PSA and homeschooling. You can take about 2/3 of a full load for free at a JC and fulfill HS UC and NCAA requirements for admittance while accumulating college credits. I assume you can take a full load if you pay tuition. Not saying it didn't happen - just genuinely curious if that's an option for 16 year olds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are underage, you must meet one of the following additional requirements:


You must be within 60 days of your 18th birthday (regardless of school enrollment status).
You are within 60 days of when you would have graduated from high school had you remained in school and followed the usual course of study. (Candidates testing under this criterion may *not* be enrolled in high school.)
You are 17 years of age; have been out of school for at least 60 consecutive days; and provide a letter of request for the test from the military, a postsecondary educational institution, or a prospective employer. The letter is to be provided to a test administrator at a local Pearson VUE test center that delivers the GED® test for the administrator’s review and approval.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> If you are underage, you must meet one of the following additional requirements:
> 
> 
> You must be within 60 days of your 18th birthday (regardless of school enrollment status).
> ...


Yeah, it's possible under this one. If you take it at 16, that basically means you can't turn 17 late March, early April of your senior year at the earliest. That happens when kids start a year early or skip a grade somewhere along the line.


You are within 60 days of when you would have graduated from high school had you remained in school and followed the usual course of study. (Candidates testing under this criterion may *not* be enrolled in high school.)


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> Yeah, it's possible under this one. If you take it at 16, that basically means you can't turn 17 late March, early April of your senior year at the earliest. That happens when kids start a year early or skip a grade somewhere along the line.
> 
> 
> You are within 60 days of when you would have graduated from high school had you remained in school and followed the usual course of study. (Candidates testing under this criterion may *not* be enrolled in high school.)


BTW, I'm not advocating taking your GED at 16 or 17.  I'm saying you can work now at 16, take JC classes and take GED whenever the heck you like.  I took it after basketball season was over my Sr year and went to work 40 hours a week at a warehouse and was making $200 a week.  My goal was warehouse manager.  This guy Phil was set to retire in 5 years and I was next in line at 18 years old.  However, I was playing lots of hoops too.  One day I was lifting a heavy box the wrong way and my back went out for the first time when I was 18 and I still have issues.  My short dream of being warehouse manger went out the window.  Now what?  Well, one night I was feeling really really depressed with my life and all my pals from grade school were looking more and more smarter and I was a loser.  I went to the Army and they said, "No."  Now what?  Whatever, the fact is if your going to be a Sr and you turn 18 in October, you can take the dam test and move on with your life.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> ...which you would have known if you had done your homework


What statements, you putz?  I'm talking about exactly what I saw and heard on the dashcam video.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> No, I am not sure.  I am not trained in police duties and I wasn't at the scene.
> 
> Those statements were made by the other police officer on the scene who was watching the whole thing through the passenger window.  You should ask him.


Why don't  you watch the video yourself?  Did you know it's all over the web?


----------



## espola (Jun 27, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> What statements, you putz?  I'm talking about exactly what I saw and heard on the dashcam video.


These statements --

Philando Castile was not resisting or fleeing. There was absolutely no criminal intent exhibited by him throughout this encounter. He was respectful and compliant based upon the instructions and orders he was given. He volunteered in good faith that he had a firearm – beyond what the law requires. He emphatically stated that he wasn't pulling it out. His movement was restricted by his own seat belt. He was accompanied, in his vehicle, by a woman and a young child. Philando Castile did not exhibit any intent, nor did he have any reason, to shoot Officer Yanez.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> BTW, I'm not advocating taking your GED at 16 or 17.  I'm saying you can work now at 16, take JC classes and take GED whenever the heck you like.  I took it after basketball season was over my Sr year and went to work 40 hours a week at a warehouse and was making $200 a week.  My goal was warehouse manager.  This guy Phil was set to retire in 5 years and I was next in line at 18 years old.  However, I was playing lots of hoops too.  One day I was lifting a heavy box the wrong way and my back went out for the first time when I was 18 and I still have issues.  My short dream of being warehouse manger went out the window.  Now what?  Well, one night I was feeling really really depressed with my life and all my pals from grade school were looking more and more smarter and I was a loser.  I went to the Army and they said, "No."  Now what?  Whatever, the fact is if your going to be a Sr and you turn 18 in October, you can take the dam test and move on with your life.


I am all for choice. I wouldn't say I'm an advocate for taking the GED early either, but I believe for some it's the best route. One size does not fit all.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am all for choice. I wouldn't say I'm an advocate for taking the GED early either, but I believe for some it's the best route. One size does not fit all.


Thank you thank you.  Let's take Jose for example.  Jose turns 18 in December.  Going to be his big Sr year coming up. He loves playing football with his friends in HS and this season was looking promising, but that's looking like a 90% chance of a "no way, Jose."  Also, Jose was on the best baseball team last year and the team was having a season unlike any season in school history.  That undefeated season was cancelled because of Corona.  Now they want to offer online class his Sr year.  Jose is no moss and is done with HS and will go work with his dad's essential business that is growing like crazy.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)




----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> I am all for choice. I wouldn't say I'm an advocate for taking the GED early either, but I believe for some it's the best route. One size does not fit all.


I asked my friend and he said he was 16 and I asked how he pulled that off and he sent me this.  

*Under rare special circumstances, a student may decide to take the GED at age 16*. This occurs when a *student has skipped several grades* or has been accepted into a university program prior to high school graduation. In this case, the institution will request that the age requirement be waived and the student will submit an age-waiver application for the GED. The California Department of Education will decide whether or not to allow the student to take the exam. Acceptance into the program or college will be dependent upon passing the GED.  

I think my friends son got busted and might have missed some school for being in Juvey for a year or so.  You can take the GED at 16.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

Under Armour looks to nix $280M deal with UCLA
					

Sports apparel company Under Armour is attempting to break a 15-year, $280 million contract with UCLA that took effect in 2017.




					www.espn.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

I woke up this morning.......


----------



## dad4 (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I asked my friend and he said he was 16 and I asked how he pulled that off and he sent me this.
> 
> *Under rare special circumstances, a student may decide to take the GED at age 16*. This occurs when a *student has skipped several grades* or has been accepted into a university program prior to high school graduation. In this case, the institution will request that the age requirement be waived and the student will submit an age-waiver application for the GED. The California Department of Education will decide whether or not to allow the student to take the exam. Acceptance into the program or college will be dependent upon passing the GED.
> 
> I think my friends son got busted and might have missed some school for being in Juvey for a year or so.  You can take the GED at 16.


I think you can do JC early if your school gives permission for dual enrollment.

You can also do a PSA.  Either way you can work towards getting enough credits to transfer, like Dre's daughter is trying.


----------



## Chalklines (Jun 27, 2020)

This things so political 









						June 27, 2020 coronavirus news
					

The coronavirus pandemic has brought countries to a standstill. In many places, as countries reopen, Covid-19 cases are on the rise. Follow here for the latest.




					www.cnn.com
				




Look at the list. What are red states doing? What are blue states doing? 100% the opposite of each other.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

dad4 said:


> I think you can do JC early if your school gives permission for dual enrollment.
> 
> You can also do a PSA.  Either way you can work towards getting enough credits to transfer, like Dre's daughter is trying.


I think GED has some sort of "dumbness" to it, right or big failure you are?  I saw it like this.  *G*enius *E*instein and *D*ivine


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 27, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> This things so political
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same folks in 2016 too.  My friend calls them all jokers.  Same sides and fighting over power as we all sit here waiting for the next move.  I want to believe and trust people but this is so obvious the gig is up.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 27, 2020)

A shot at common ground...can we all get on board with this?


----------



## dad4 (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I think GED has some sort of "dumbness" to it, right or big failure you are?  I saw it like this.  *G*enius *E*instein and *D*ivine


if you are doing JC early, the GED or CHSPE is a device for getting higher enrollment priority.

My son does JC, and he always has to enroll last because he is young.  Depending on the school, it can become difficult to get the class you want.

(3 kids, only the 10 year old does soccer. )


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 27, 2020)

Red card said:


> 20 deaths of people that are elderly and have morbidities.  that is the part that is the con.  5000 people die every day that dont have covid


----------



## espola (Jun 27, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> A shot at common ground...can we all get on board with this?


The problem with term limits is that it also gets rid of the good employees.


----------



## met61 (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> The problem with term limits is that it also gets rid of the good employees.


The best employee (D) have...got it.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276984850067656705


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 27, 2020)

met61 said:


> The best employee (D) have...got it.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276984850067656705


Stuttering.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 27, 2020)

Pediatrician's weighing in on schools.  My friend helped write these.  Basically they advocate re  open the schools FT, kids should wear masks (with certain exceptions), move a lot of stuff outdoors where feasible, contact sports & bussing limited, but schools need to be prepared if outbreak for virtual learning.  Distance learning comes under criticism for lack of mental health/suicide support.  Speed reading, so may have misread stuff, but that's the jist.



			https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/


----------



## watfly (Jun 27, 2020)

Finally some common sense.  Unfortunately, I'm doubtful this is going to change the plans of school districts. The irrational Covid fear is just too great and no school wants to be on the news for a Covid outbreak.


----------



## espola (Jun 27, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Pediatrician's weighing in on schools.  My friend helped write these.  Basically they advocate re  open the schools FT, kids should wear masks (with certain exceptions), move a lot of stuff outdoors where feasible, contact sports & bussing limited, but schools need to be prepared if outbreak for virtual learning.  Distance learning comes under criticism for lack of mental health/suicide support.  Speed reading, so may have misread stuff, but that's the jist.
> 
> 
> 
> https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/


Quick paraphrase --

"First, we admit that no one knows much about the long-term effects of this pandemic.  We are using this as the foundation of ou recommended policy."


----------



## chiefs (Jun 27, 2020)

met61 said:


> The best employee (D) have...got it.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276984850067656705


That dudes brain is mush


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 27, 2020)

espola said:


> Quick paraphrase --
> 
> "First, we admit that no one knows much about the long-term effects of this pandemic.  We are using this as the foundation of ou recommended policy."


Quick paraphrase-

moron


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 27, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I think GED has some sort of "dumbness" to it, right or big failure you are?  I saw it like this.  *G*enius *E*instein and *D*ivine


My brother got his GED after dropping out of HS. He went JC for two years and eventually ended up getting his PhD in mathematics. I wouldn't recommend his route, but it worked for him and I'm happy it was an option.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 27, 2020)

dad4 said:


> if you are doing JC early, the GED or CHSPE is a device for getting higher enrollment priority.
> 
> My son does JC, and he always has to enroll last because he is young.  Depending on the school, it can become difficult to get the class you want.
> 
> (3 kids, only the 10 year old does soccer. )


This is good advice. So far, my daughter has been fortunate getting classes - she started 3 of the 4 on the wait-list. JC's generally try to place everyone, and she registered for classes with multiple sections.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 28, 2020)

Skeptics, please take the time to read this 








						Front-line workers: We wish public could see what we see
					





					enewspaper.sandiegouniontribune.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> Skeptics, please take the time to read this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm trying so hard to see what you see.  I know many Drs, one ER Doc and a few nurses and no one is saying the suffering is not real.  My friend told me about a little girl that was hit by a car and the dad is firefighter and was on the scene to find his dd dying.  Rushed her to the hospital where she died and everyone suffered with that loss.  Talk about wailing in the waiting room when your told your dd is dead.  That was a hard one too.  I read article from Fox last night about nurses in Phoenix who just can;t work now because someone they helped died of Corona.  My friend says people die everyday of other issues at the hospitals.  In fact, he said that's where most people go to die and most suffer in their last moments and their super sad too and all families suffer.  All deaths suck and most have to do with suffering.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 28, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I'm trying so hard to see what you see.  I know many Drs, one ER Doc and a few nurses and no one is saying the suffering is not real.  My friend told me about a little girl that was hit by a car and the dad is firefighter and was on the scene to find his dd dying.  Rushed her to the hospital where she died and everyone suffered with that loss.  Talk about wailing in the waiting room when your told your dd is dead.  That was a hard one too.  I read article from Fox last night about nurses in Phoenix who just can;t work now because someone they helped died of Corona.  My friend says people die everyday of other issues at the hospitals.  In fact, he said that's where most people go to die and most suffer in their last moments and their super sad too and all families suffer.  All deaths suck and most have to do with suffering.


I'm not saying that people don't die and suffer from other things in hospitals. Nor does this article.  Of course they do and it's horrible. The point is for the people who think this virus is over exaggerated, or only effects the old, or don't want to wear a mask, to see that it is very serious and very real. And to please do your part to stay safe and keep others safe. It talks about what the Drs are seeing first hand regarding the virus, not saying there aren't other things people die of.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> I'm not saying that people don't die and suffer from other things in hospitals. Nor does this article.  Of course they do and it's horrible. The point is for the people who think this virus is over exaggerated, or only effects the old, or don't want to wear a mask, to see that it is very serious and very real. And to please do your part to stay safe and keep others safe. It talks about what the Drs are seeing first hand regarding the virus, not saying there aren't other things people die of.


So far from my own research and talking to my own experts, people who are old or anyone that has heart problems, hyper tension, asthma, cancer, lung and breathing problems and are super over weight, they need to really watch themselves.  I hate it when people suffer and die.  I watched my dad die for 10 years with Parkinson.  His last month was the most sad thing I witnessed for some who was so kind.  This guy married my mom with 6 kids all under 13.  4 of her own  and two foster kids.  The they went out and adopted 6 more, and I was the youngest.  That is why I went and visited my dad every day at the VA.  21 years old and going to the Long Beach VA for 6 months until my awesome dad past away.  I was the only one out of 12 that could go.  My mom suffered too at 90.  Her last 48 hours was insane.  Again, because of the sacrifice I felt from both of my adopted parents, I went to help them through their suffering.  That't what loved ones do.  If we had Corona back then, my suffering would be that I cant be with them and that would have been so hard for me for sure.  This virus sucks but I think the kids can play some soccer.  I know I'm addicted to soccer so I might be willing to take a chance at life and let my dd play.  She is ready but will for now go and take chances doing other things.


----------



## Chalklines (Jun 28, 2020)

lets get this guy to help us play.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> lets get this guy to help us play.


Wow!!!  I will say most Drs I know don;t believe in the after life so threats of hell isn;t going to work.  I would stick to what we have now and today.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 28, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> lets get this guy to help us play.


What he said...


----------



## watfly (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> Skeptics, please take the time to read this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were skeptics of the gross overreaction, not of the virus itself.   We believe the virus is serious and I don't think any of us believe its a hoax.  For the 100th time we're wearing masks in public whether or not we believe they're effective or not, although most of us agree they're effective to some degree and should be worn out of respect for others.  We're also skeptical of the binary choice being between Covid and everything else.   Many medical professionals believe the non-covid health impacts of the lockdown and social isolation will be significantly greater than the direct covid impacts.  We're concerned about those health impacts as well.  This isn't a choice between youth soccer and Covid despite the fact that many of you want to boil our arguments down to that trite statement.  Covid is a danger to a very, very small percentage of our population; however, 100% of us are impacted in some way by the lockdown and social isolation ranging from mild to death. 








						The Pandemic’s Hidden Victims: Sick or Dying, but Not From the Virus (Published 2020)
					

As the coronavirus overwhelms the health care system, people with other illnesses struggle to find treatment.




					www.nytimes.com
				




We'd be far less skeptical about the restrictions due to Covid if they were't arbitrary and often times politically based.  We'd appreciate actual medical and common sense based restrictions.  We've locked down our entire population despite the fact that 1) we know exactly who is vulnerable to this disease (with very few anecdotal exceptions) and 2) the Covid virus possesses very little health risk to the vast majority of the population.  The overreaction to the virus by focusing on the whole instead of protecting a few has lead to many unneeded deaths particularly in NY and NJ.  Yes, my kid might be able contract and spread the virus to someone vulnerable.  However, the focus in the first place should be on quarantining the vulnerable to limit contact to everyone instead of locking down everyone and leaving the vulnerable exposed.

Kids need to be active and physically back in school as Pediatrics Association recommends.  Fortunately they understand the bigger picture.

The article you posted would be good for young protesters and bar goers to read, but for most of us its just a "bigger no shit".


----------



## MicPaPa (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> I'm not saying that people don't die and suffer from other things in hospitals. Nor does this article.  Of course they do and it's horrible. The point is for the people who think this virus is over exaggerated, or only effects the old, or don't want to wear a mask, to see that it is very serious and very real. And to please do your part to stay safe and keep others safe. It talks about what the Drs are seeing first hand regarding the virus, not saying there aren't other things people die of.


Spare us the "concern and outrage"... Liberals, government officials and the so-called "experts"  have no place telling Americans to  wear masks, social distance and stay home...these are the same hypocrites who spent weeks gaslighting tens of thousands of protestors, rioters and looters.


----------



## gkmom (Jun 28, 2020)

watfly said:


> Were skeptics of the gross overreaction, not of the virus itself.   We believe the virus is serious and I don't think any of us believe its a hoax.  For the 100th time we're wearing masks in public whether or not we believe they're effective or not, although most of us agree they're effective to some degree and should be worn out of respect for others.  We're also skeptical of the binary choice being between Covid and everything else.   Many medical professionals believe the non-covid health impacts of the lockdown and social isolation will be significantly greater than the direct covid impacts.  We're concerned about those health impacts as well.  This isn't a choice between youth soccer and Covid despite the fact that many of you want to boil our arguments down to that trite statement.  Covid is a danger to a very, very small percentage of our population; however, 100% of us are impacted in some way by the lockdown and social isolation ranging from mild to death.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you envision this partial quarantine to work? Whos going to deliver food and groceries to the at-risk population?  Are young/healthy people going to do all the work required by grocery stores, hospitals, gas stations, and utilities?  Are all young/healthy people going to move out of their parents/grandparents' houses until this is all over?  Where's everyone going to live?
Is it ok with you if businesses only employ young/healthy people temporarily - and then they lose their jobs when the older/at risk people get cleared to return to work?    
The reason that the lockdowns are keeping rates down is because everyone is complying.  If some people aren't required to comply, that increases the rate of new infections, and exposes everyone to increased risks.


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 28, 2020)

watfly said:


> Finally some common sense.  Unfortunately, I'm doubtful this is going to change the plans of school districts. The irrational Covid fear is just too great and no school wants to be on the news for a Covid outbreak.


Elementary kids will not wear masks all day, classrooms are very crowded and in some cases difficult for teacher to even move around, ask plant supervisors how the kids leave the bathrooms, ask a teacher how often they get sick from what the kids bring to school.  Ask a teacher what it would be like to teach outside all day and have the students six feet apart.  I am sure "Pediatricians" are all for it. Side note - if you suspect your child is depressed or has a mental illness, definitely seek the help of a mental health professional. Mental illness is a real problem in teenagers, our school district had 3-4 suicides last fall, so again seek professional help for your child regardless of age if you suspect mental illness.


----------



## watfly (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> How do you envision this partial quarantine to work? Whos going to deliver food and groceries to the at-risk population?  Are young/healthy people going to do all the work required by grocery stores, hospitals, gas stations, and utilities?  Are all young/healthy people going to move out of their parents/grandparents' houses until this is all over?  Where's everyone going to live?
> Is it ok with you if businesses only employ young/healthy people temporarily - and then they lose their jobs when the older/at risk people get cleared to return to work?
> The reason that the lockdowns are keeping rates down is because everyone is complying.  If some people aren't required to comply, that increases the rate of new infections, and exposes everyone to increased risks.





Copa9 said:


> Elementary kids will not wear masks all day, classrooms are very crowded and in some cases difficult for teacher to even move around, ask plant supervisors how the kids leave the bathrooms, ask a teacher how often they get sick from what the kids bring to school.  Ask a teacher what it would be like to teach outside all day and have the students six feet apart.  I am sure "Pediatricians" are all for it. Side note - if you suspect your child is depressed or has a mental illness, definitely seek the help of a mental health professional. Mental illness is a real problem in teenagers, our school district had 3-4 suicides last fall, so again seek professional help for your child regardless of age if you suspect mental illness.


Sorry but I just don't have the mentality to address problems with "how it can't work", I address problems with "how it can work".  Again I find it a very odd mentality to look at the negative of everything and make it a zero sum game and not make it a win, win situation.

The solution is easy.  In its simplest sense we should do what we always done for the last 100 years and quarantine the sick and protect the vulnerable.  Its not possible to eliminate all risk, nor should that ever be our goal.  Our goal should be to mitigate risk on a cost/benefit basis.  Cost in terms of health not dollars.  First step, don't force nursing homes and other vulnerable communities to accept Covid patients.  Vulnerable people should shelter in place and have very limited exposure to anyone else.  If they're going to have exposure to other people, both should be wearing gloves and masks (preferably a N95 mask for the vulnerable since they're readily available now).  Plus anyone that is going to have exposure to the person must have a temperature check.  It's pretty simple.   Please don't let your personal fear of Covid distort your common sense.

That having been said there is one thing that I'm concerned regarding fighting Covid and that is our current state of testing.  Right now, at least in San Diego, it is very difficult to get a test if you have no symptoms.  I could be wrong, but I believe its not due so much to a shortage of tests, but the ability to timely process the test.  I believe its also because doctors are not that concerned about potential asymptomatic individuals.  We had an employee who got Covid from their significant other and had direct contact with another employee.  It was incredibly difficult to get that exposed, symptom free, employee a test and were still waiting on the results.  I would like to see more available and timely testing for directly exposed but symptom free individuals.  It's critical for decision making.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> How do you envision this partial quarantine to work? Whos going to deliver food and groceries to the at-risk population?  Are young/healthy people going to do all the work required by grocery stores, hospitals, gas stations, and utilities?  Are all young/healthy people going to move out of their parents/grandparents' houses until this is all over?  Where's everyone going to live?


There was a time in our history when we said "women and children first".  I get why the women fell out of it...our calls for equality.  But it's stunning how we are wiling to actively harm (in some cases even torment) children for the sake of the safety of adults.  This is even when the science is showing that while disease spread is possible in the schools, it is not a major vector, yet we're opening up the bars (which we've seen are a major vector), protesting, opening movie theatres (where no one can wear a mask), gyms (which are breading grounds for germs and usually exclude kids) and even Disneyland.  The thinking is just so backwards, and really is tantamount to advocating for a perpetual lockdown until a vaccine (because the limited schedules make it impossible for working parents of the little ones to work, or even the middle ones since a parent is going to need to be there to help usher them through the remote/homework learning).

The active harm to the children is obvious.  The younger ones will be delayed up to a year in basic reading and math skills, and there's already talk in the professional education circles of maybe having to hold them back 1 year.  The older ones are prepping for college and are in full swing with the courses that matter, whether APs, language, or even algebra.  Children have been subjected to additional abuse, being locked in with parents who are hostile or depressed or drinking, and being outside of the schools means people aren't as easily picking up on this abuse.  The psychologists all say children have shown increased signs of depression, anxiety and in the older ones suicidal thoughts.  Their physical health has suffered as well (remember all those complaints pre-COVID about screentime?).  We know vaccination rates are heavily down.   For all age groups, they aren't (unless their parents aren't locking down, in which case what's the point) learning valuable socialization skills, whether kindgarteners learning to interact in a classroom or teenagers looking to ask each other out.  Inequality has gotten worse, with kids from rich educated households having parents to pickup the slack, but poorer ones falling behind.  In some school districts, they've lost track of 5% of the student population.  For the high extroverts, this isolation of up to a year has been emotional brutal and traumatizing.

What we are doing to children for the sake of adults is active harm and just plain wrong.  This isn't how society is supposed to work.  Adults make sacrifices for the children.  They always have.  When did everything become so ass backwards?

p.s. the mask thing is one thing my pediatrician friend and I have been going back and forth on.  She was originally skeptical about then wearing but then went to saying even the little ones in her practice seem to be wearing them fine.  I reminded her that's only for short time periods.  Though she's only one contributor, it's one of the reason the mask requirement is a little soft (with some leeway for the littlest ones or kids with disabilities).


----------



## gkmom (Jun 28, 2020)

watfly said:


> Sorry but I just don't have the mentality to address problems with "how it can't work", I address problems with "how it can work".  Again I find it a very odd mentality to look at the negative of everything and make it a zero sum game and not make it a win, win situation.
> 
> The solution is easy.  In its simplest sense we should do what we always done for the last 100 years and quarantine the sick and protect the vulnerable.  Its not possible to eliminate all risk, nor should that ever be our goal.  Our goal should be to mitigate risk on a cost/benefit basis.  Cost in terms of health not dollars.  First step, don't force nursing homes and other vulnerable communities to accept Covid patients.  Vulnerable people should shelter in place and have very limited exposure to anyone else.  If they're going to have exposure to other people, both should be wearing gloves and masks (preferably a N95 mask for the vulnerable since they're readily available now).  Plus anyone that is going to have exposure to the person must have a temperature check.  It's pretty simple.   Please don't let your personal fear of Covid distort your common sense.
> 
> That having been said there is one thing that I'm concerned regarding fighting Covid and that is our current state of testing.  Right now, at least in San Diego, it is very difficult to get a test if you have no symptoms.  I could be wrong, but I believe its not due so much to a shortage of tests, but the ability to timely process the test.  I believe its also because doctors are not that concerned about potential asymptomatic individuals.  We had an employee who got Covid from their significant other and had direct contact with another employee.  It was incredibly difficult to get that exposed, symptom free, employee a test and were still waiting on the results.  I would like to see more available and timely testing for directly exposed but symptom free individuals.  It's critical for decision making.





Grace T. said:


> There was a time in our history when we said "women and children first".  I get why the women fell out of it...our calls for equality.  But it's stunning how we are wiling to actively harm (in some cases even torment) children for the sake of the safety of adults.  This is even when the science is showing that while disease spread is possible in the schools, it is not a major vector, yet we're opening up the bars (which we've seen are a major vector), protesting, opening movie theatres (where no one can wear a mask), gyms (which are breading grounds for germs and usually exclude kids) and even Disneyland.  The thinking is just so backwards, and really is tantamount to advocating for a perpetual lockdown until a vaccine (because the limited schedules make it impossible for working parents of the little ones to work, or even the middle ones since a parent is going to need to be there to help usher them through the remote/homework learning).
> 
> The active harm to the children is obvious.  The younger ones will be delayed up to a year in basic reading and math skills, and there's already talk in the professional education circles of maybe having to hold them back 1 year.  The older ones are prepping for college and are in full swing with the courses that matter, whether APs, language, or even algebra.  Children have been subjected to additional abuse, being locked in with parents who are hostile or depressed or drinking, and being outside of the schools means people aren't as easily picking up on this abuse.  The psychologists all say children have shown increased signs of depression, anxiety and in the older ones suicidal thoughts.  Their physical health has suffered as well (remember all those complaints pre-COVID about screentime?).  We know vaccination rates are heavily down.   For all age groups, they aren't (unless their parents aren't locking down, in which case what's the point) learning valuable socialization skills, whether kindgarteners learning to interact in a classroom or teenagers looking to ask each other out.  Inequality has gotten worse, with kids from rich educated households having parents to pickup the slack, but poorer ones falling behind.  In some school districts, they've lost track of 5% of the student population.  For the high extroverts, this isolation of up to a year has been emotional brutal and traumatizing.
> 
> ...


If you guys have it so figured out, why isn't the approach the country is taking? The government, Health departments,etc. And no, it's not a political thing. The red States aren't doing what you're suggesting either. Even Pence and Mitch McConnell have said it's important to comply with social distancing guidelines - which includes all ages


----------



## lafalafa (Jun 28, 2020)

Gov. Gavin Newsom ordered seven counties including Los Angeles to immediately close any bars and nightspots that are open citing coronavirus concerns.




__





						California Gov. Newsom orders bars closed in counties including Los Angeles, citing coronavirus | Fox News
					

California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Sunday ordered bars to close in counties including Los Angeles, while recommending closures in some other counties, citing the spread of the coronavirus.




					www.foxnews.com
				




First off we're weren't prepared or didn't have plans to deal with any pandemic.

Slow to respond or take action for many months to the warnings, risks, info we basically did very little little until was too late.

After months of shut down we still had no clear national plans, guidance so the states went off on their own and did various things.

Some opened up in May with too few guidelines precautions, we had the biggest civil rights movement of all time happen,  the whole distancing,  Mask recommendations thing was ignored by too many and now we're going merry go around.

Leadership has been lacking so people have started to just go there own way(s).  Individual rights vs the group's greater good is now a hot topic.   We're much too divided it seems to work better together, 

Australia is looking better all the time to me, we can do much better so let hope we can.


----------



## blam (Jun 28, 2020)

Which country would you recommend to send my children out of the USA in the next year so that they can get a good education and not be disrupted ?


----------



## lafalafa (Jun 28, 2020)

blam said:


> Which country would you recommend to send my children out of the USA in the next year so that they can get a good education and not be disrupted ?


Australia


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## Anon9 (Jun 28, 2020)

blam said:


> Which country would you recommend to send my children out of the USA in the next year so that they can get a good education and not be disrupted ?


Cuba


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## Anon9 (Jun 28, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Cuba


The socialist wonderland with free healthcare!


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## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2020)

gkmom said:


> If you guys have it so figured out, why isn't the approach the country is taking? The government, Health departments,etc. And no, it's not a political thing. The red States aren't doing what you're suggesting either. Even Pence and Mitch McConnell have said it's important to comply with social distancing guidelines - which includes all ages


The impetus to "do something" is very high in humans.  Yet most of the strategies around the world (whether lockdowns, Swedish style, hard test and trace, soft test and trace) have been a failure.  The only ones who've had real success are a handful of islands (including our own Hawaii) that were able to smother it before it got going (Hawaii's economy, though, is in tatters and for a tourist state it's not sustainable for a year or more), Oz (with interprovince lockdowns though that's in doubt in Victoria now) or China (if you believe them, and draconian measures such as welding people into apartments, detension camps, and forced testing).  That doesn't mean we can't take reasonable precautions, but our ability to take these precautions have been partially shattered by the stupid nation wide lockdown we initially put in place (spending our bullet) and then the protests (which eliminated any possibility of more bullets).  The "do something" impetus gets higher too if you think we are in this only for a few more months (since Fauci said we're getting a vaccine by year end), but at this point I've begun to suspect that (as with the masks) they are lying about their ability to deploy just to control the population-- though I really really hope I'm wrong about that.



lafalafa said:


> Gov. Gavin Newsom ordered seven counties including Los Angeles to immediately close any bars and nightspots that are open citing coronavirus concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-Closing the bars is probably the right thing to do.  They've been shown to be vectors (more so than schools)
-there was clear national guidance issued by the CDC.  Some states like Georgia said nah and decided to go early.  Some states like California said nah and decided to go late.  Given who is at the top, you probably wouldn't have liked the national guidelines, and which wouldn't have said go ahead and protest
-Australia did better because it shut down its provinces and borders.  No one from NY bringing it into Florida, for example.  And part of our increase in the southern areas is from people fleeing Mexico looking for better care (though the news has been reluctant to look at the exact figures).  The US would have a very hard time shutting down state to state travel because the US Constitution was (because of history) expressly designed to try and stop that.  It would likely require martial law and shutting down the courts.


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## Chalklines (Jun 28, 2020)

Bars closed but youth soccer's a go? 2 weeks boys and it's over


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## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The impetus to "do something" is very high in humans.  Yet most of the strategies around the world (whether lockdowns, Swedish style, hard test and trace, soft test and trace) have been a failure.  The only ones who've had real success are a handful of islands (including our own Hawaii) that were able to smother it before it got going (Hawaii's economy, though, is in tatters and for a tourist state it's not sustainable for a year or more), Oz (with interprovince lockdowns though that's in doubt in Victoria now) or China (if you believe them, and draconian measures such as welding people into apartments, detension camps, and forced testing).  That doesn't mean we can't take reasonable precautions, but our ability to take these precautions have been partially shattered by the stupid nation wide lockdown we initially put in place (spending our bullet) and then the protests (which eliminated any possibility of more bullets).  The "do something" impetus gets higher too if you think we are in this only for a few more months (since Fauci said we're getting a vaccine by year end), but at this point I've begun to suspect that (as with the masks) they are lying about their ability to deploy just to control the population-- though I really really hope I'm wrong about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My adopted bro has lived on the west side of Kauai since 1988.  I surfed a beach break by the naval base and let's just say my wife was impressed with my abilities.  She was scared at first but my bro told her I was a true waterman in every since of the word.  I can do anything in the water.  I love the ocean.  We went to Kauai on our honeymoon and my bro planned out a few days.  He's a good guy with a good heart and I do get jealous, I wont lie.  No wife or kids to deal with.....lol and he just plays with no worries.  He said Hawaii is the best ever.  I asked him about those white folks selling timeshares and he said their doing great.  My bro looks Hawaiian and speaks the language well and acks the part when he needs to be Hawaiian.  I talked with him yesterday and he said it's paradise.  No tourist to come and ruin a wave he said....lol.  He did say his buddy and his wife who sold timeshares are making almost as much as they were before Corona. They always had to work and it seemed like they could never really enjoy paradise.  Now they have the Islands to themselves and they cant work.  Not a bad gig.  I asked my bro what will happen when the money dries up and he said it wont and all is good.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 28, 2020)

Chalklines said:


> Bars closed but youth soccer's a go? 2 weeks boys and it's over


Assuming youth sports gets shut down again?  What do you do as a parent? Kids begin to lose interest and parents (me) as well if we have to go back to zoom training.  What’s the point of having the kids train if we might not play until next spring.    
Very sad times for our children’s social and soccer  development.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Assuming youth sports gets shut down again?  What do you do as a parent? Kids begin to lose interest and parents (me) as well if we have to go back to zoom training.  What’s the point of having the kids train if we might not play until next spring.
> Very sad times for our children’s social and soccer  development.


Hiking?  Read some books?  Draw closer to one another?  I thought you said, "what's the point of having kids if you can't do soccer.........lol"


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## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> Assuming youth sports gets shut down again?  What do you do as a parent? Kids begin to lose interest and parents (me) as well if we have to go back to zoom training.  What’s the point of having the kids train if we might not play until next spring.
> Very sad times for our children’s social and soccer  development.


Yanking youth sports in those areas that they've started would require them yanking the day camp permission. Not sure they'll take that step given some parents relying upon it for child care.  More likely we can't get out of the distanced learning phase and things die a slow death. Things will likely also shift underground for fall (Spanish leagues, pickup leagues, ASA even has a plan for futsal).  Shifting things underground will mean all but the highest end teams won't survive this in tact.

My son's a GK and would continue to train 1 on 1 in hopes of spring middle school season with his school, the occurence of which will depend if they are lying about a vaccine or not.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Yanking youth sports in those areas that they've started would require them yanking the day camp permission. Not sure they'll take that step given some parents relying upon it for child care.  More likely we can't get out of the distanced learning phase and things die a slow death. Things will likely also shift underground for fall (Spanish leagues, pickup leagues, ASA even has a plan for futsal).  Shifting things underground will mean all but the highest end teams won't survive this in tact.
> 
> My son's a GK and would continue to train 1 on 1 in hopes of spring middle school season with his school, the occurence of which will depend if they are lying about a vaccine or not.


Under ground soccer is already in full swing, just not at Great Park.....lol!!!  Shhhhhhhhhhh, just kidding.  I have no idea who is playing underground Futbol


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## lafalafa (Jun 28, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The impetus to "do something" is very high in humans.  Yet most of the strategies around the world (whether lockdowns, Swedish style, hard test and trace, soft test and trace) have been a failure.  The only ones who've had real success are a handful of islands (including our own Hawaii) that were able to smother it before it got going (Hawaii's economy, though, is in tatters and for a tourist state it's not sustainable for a year or more), Oz (with interprovince lockdowns though that's in doubt in Victoria now) or China (if you believe them, and draconian measures such as welding people into apartments, detension camps, and forced testing).  That doesn't mean we can't take reasonable precautions, but our ability to take these precautions have been partially shattered by the stupid nation wide lockdown we initially put in place (spending our bullet) and then the protests (which eliminated any possibility of more bullets).  The "do something" impetus gets higher too if you think we are in this only for a few more months (since Fauci said we're getting a vaccine by year end), but at this point I've begun to suspect that (as with the masks) they are lying about their ability to deploy just to control the population-- though I really really hope I'm wrong about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah understand what saying but the CDC stuff has been all over the place and the pres, vice and others have contradicted them several times and now this::








						Actual Coronavirus Infections Vastly Undercounted, CDC Data Shows
					

The number of coronavirus infections in many parts of the United States is more than 10 times higher than the reported rate, according to data released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.The analysis is part of a wide-ranging set of surveys started by the CDC to estimate...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Hawaii is nice


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## watfly (Jun 28, 2020)

Out of curiosity, I Googled to find child care outbreaks.  Child care has remained open in some cases the entire time for essential workers and in most cases have been open for a couple months.  Basically, all I could find (you might find more results) was some workers and a kid infected in Colorado. Although I found a twelve kid and four employee breakout and another smaller breakout in Canada.  In all of these cases no one was hospitalized and no evidence that it resulted in any serious issues with anyone they contacted.   No evidence that kids indoors in close contact are a significant issue with the spread of the virus.  As long as we keep kids out of bars and protests they should be in pretty good shape.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Jun 28, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Hiking?  Read some books?  Draw closer to one another?  I thought you said, "what's the point of having kids if you can't do soccer.........lol"


LOL.  We did so much hiking over the past 4 months that none of my kids get excited about hiking anymore.  Biking is the new thing in our house but let's see how long that last.  Learning how to surf is definitely in our to do list this summer.  Personally, if we go back to quarantine, I think that will be the end for soccer for my little one.  We will just wait until everything gets back to normal to see if she wants to play again in 2022?!?


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## Ellejustus (Jun 28, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> LOL.  We did so much hiking over the past 4 months that none of my kids get excited about hiking anymore.  Biking is the new thing in our house but let's see how long that last.  Learning how to surf is definitely in our to do list this summer.  Personally, if we go back to quarantine, I think that will be the end for soccer for my little one.  We will just wait until everything gets back to normal to see if she wants to play again in 2022?!?


Surfing is free except the board and wet suit.  Hiking is boring and my kids are not interested.  Ocean is free and it's peaceful.  My dd came home yesterday and said it was 2-3 and she was in the water for 6 hours.  My son is renting a beach house somewhere I wont say with his buddies from HS and their having a blast.  LA Mayor just told everyone in LA to stay home again.  Are we back to everyone from LA coming to OC beaches again and bringing the virus with them?  OC is next, I can feel it.  How old is your little one?


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## foreveryoung (Jun 28, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> Pediatrician's weighing in on schools.  My friend helped write these.  Basically they advocate re  open the schools FT, kids should wear masks (with certain exceptions), move a lot of stuff outdoors where feasible, contact sports & bussing limited, but schools need to be prepared if outbreak for virtual learning.  Distance learning comes under criticism for lack of mental health/suicide support.  Speed reading, so may have misread stuff, but that's the jist.
> 
> 
> 
> https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/


SD Unified has confirmed students will be able to attend school in-person 5 days/week next school year.  They will also have and distance learning options for those that prefer.


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## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2020)

Fauci laying the groundwork today to make the vaccine mandatory.  They may not be able to drag people into the doctor to get it, but you can bet they'll make it a requirement for all govt employees, health care workers, kids attending school, day care workers, employees of major corporations, professional sports figures, college attendance, and kids who want to play youth sports.  wouldn't surprise me if they require it for licensed workers either (attorneys, contractors, hair dressers, coaches).  They might even go so far as to exclude insurance coverage if you get it and aren't vaccinated.









						Fauci says Covid-19 vaccine may not get US to herd immunity if too many people refuse to get it
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci says he would "settle" for a Covid-19 vaccine that's 70% to 75% effective, but that this incomplete protection, coupled with the fact that many Americans say they won't get a coronavirus vaccine, makes it "unlikely" that the US will achieve sufficient levels of immunity to...




					www.cnn.com


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## Lionel Hutz (Jun 28, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> the occurence of which will depend if they are lying about a vaccine or not.


Hahaha -- this is too much! Pray tell what exactly they are lying about?


----------



## chiefs (Jun 28, 2020)

lafalafa said:


> Yeah understand what saying but the CDC stuff has been all over the place and the pres, vice and others have contradicted them several times and now this::
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The CDC has been inaccurate and have no idea what the virus is doing.  They haven’t been a reliable government agency at all. CDC needs to be on the know all and they aren’t.  Another reason to go to small government; can’t imagine the millions upon billions wasted with this organization.  In a time of crisis they have little to know idea wtf is going on.


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## Ellejustus (Jun 29, 2020)

Fred dealt with Lamont's TB and all was good.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jun 29, 2020)

chiefs said:


> The CDC has been inaccurate and have no idea what the virus is doing.  They haven’t been a reliable government agency at all. CDC needs to be on the know all and they aren’t.  Another reason to go to small government; can’t imagine the millions upon billions wasted with this organization.  In a time of crisis they have little to know idea wtf is going on.


Two things strike me as counterproductive in the handling of messaging to the public. One is that it isn't emphasized enough that there is a lot of uncertainty. Stating, "We don't really know", isn't used often enough. Then when the public finds out they really didn't know, credibility suffers. I also feel like the culture of "controlling the message" isn't serving the populace very well. These big organizations such as the CDC and WHO get a lot of data. Maybe they need to become a repository of data and disseminate it to multiple organizations of various affiliations (biases). Let them analyze it and present their conclusions/recommendations/concerns back to the parent organization. The parent organization can decide their recommendations while also including the analyses from the other organizations. As a side benefit, it will help with transparency and will reduce the likelihood that the public gets lied to because someone (such as Fauci and his mask recommendation) believes we can't handle the truth. I believe it will also increase the likelihood of "buy-in" for the recommendations that are made as more factions will have been included in the process.


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## messy (Jun 29, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> I know, you want everyone to do research for you...another weak tactic of the left. OK, I'll play along just this one time.
> 
> In their own words...


You can’t be this stupid, can you?
Jesus what a fuckin’ idiot you are.
Do you party with Outlaw? You should.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 29, 2020)

messy said:


> You can’t be this stupid, can you?
> Jesus what a fuckin’ idiot you are.
> Do you party with Outlaw? You should.


Good comeback, 'tard.  One of your typical deflections that offer nothing to the contrary... just backwards tap dancing.


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## MicPaPa (Jun 29, 2020)

messy said:


> You can’t be this stupid, can you?
> Jesus what a fuckin’ idiot you are.
> Do you party with Outlaw? You should.


Sure...aside from throwing a meaningless tantrum, go ahead and provide counter points using facts and/or something in her own words. You won't be able to...prove me wrong.


----------



## jpeter (Jun 29, 2020)

How about the OC? What's next?








						Gov. Newsom adds Orange County to monitoring list as COVID-19 cases surge
					

Gov. Gavin Newsom announced Monday that Orange County and three other counties were being closely monitored for worsening COVID-19 trends as the state attempts to mitigate the spread of the virus.




					abc7.com


----------



## blam (Jun 29, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> The US would have a very hard time shutting down state to state travel because the US Constitution was (because of history) expressly designed to try and stop that.



The us Constitution also gives states a Constitutional duty to care for it's citizens. That contradicts with the right it gave citizens to travel. . Ah! We have a conflict in the law now. Time to head to the supreme court. 

My bet that states will win this one as long as they make narrowly tailor it.


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## blam (Jun 29, 2020)

Anon9 said:


> Cuba


Cuba's model of communism does not follow the original Marx's model for evolution into a Communist state. Marx model was for society to go from agrarian to industrialization to Capitalism to socialism and finally to communism. His ideal country at the time to undergo this when he was alive was Germany.

Cuba is more like Russia. Agrarian revolution -> bypasses industrialization and capitalism -> socialism while attempting to generate industrialization in socialism. 

Just bringing this up because most people are surprised, but Marx almost at the start of his book "The Capital" described Capitalism as the most efficient system to generate wealth and technological advancement. So it isn't surprising that he sees the end of the runway of Capitalism to be replaced by Socialism. But there was Capitalism FIRST, before Socialism.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2020)

L.A. County Sheriff Refuses to Enforce Beach Closure Order for July 4th
					

Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva said Monday that he refuses to enforce a directive to close beaches for July 4th weekend.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2020)

Just a taste of a Biden presidency.








						LAPD Morale Collapses to 'Record Low': 'It's Simply Not Worth It Any Longer'
					

LAPD morale is at a "record low," thanks to the ongoing Black Lives Matter protests and the vilification of police by local politicians.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jun 29, 2020)

L.A. County Faces Coronavirus Surge After Black Lives Matter Protests
					

Los Angeles County may run out of hospital beds because of a new surge in coronavirus infections dating to the Black Lives Matter protests.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## espola (Jun 29, 2020)

blam said:


> Cuba's model of communism does not follow the original Marx's model for evolution into a Communist state. Marx model was for society to go from agrarian to industrialization to Capitalism to socialism and finally to communism. His ideal country at the time to undergo this when he was alive was Germany.
> 
> Cuba is more like Russia. Agrarian revolution -> bypasses industrialization and capitalism -> socialism while attempting to generate industrialization in socialism.
> 
> Just bringing this up because most people are surprised, but Marx almost at the start of his book "The Capital" described Capitalism as the most efficient system to generate wealth and technological advancement. So it isn't surprising that he sees the end of the runway of Capitalism to be replaced by Socialism. But there was Capitalism FIRST, before Socialism.


Most people that argue communism vs capitalism have little idea what either one is.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 29, 2020)

blam said:


> Cuba's model of communism does not follow the original Marx's model for evolution into a Communist state. Marx model was for society to go from agrarian to industrialization to Capitalism to socialism and finally to communism. His ideal country at the time to undergo this when he was alive was Germany.
> 
> Cuba is more like Russia. Agrarian revolution -> bypasses industrialization and capitalism -> socialism while attempting to generate industrialization in socialism.
> 
> Just bringing this up because most people are surprised, but Marx almost at the start of his book "The Capital" described Capitalism as the most efficient system to generate wealth and technological advancement. So it isn't surprising that he sees the end of the runway of Capitalism to be replaced by Socialism. But there was Capitalism FIRST, before Socialism.


Marxists tend not to approve of any particular Marxist state.  

Something about the state engineered famines makes it awkward to talk about.

(USSR 32-33, PRC 59-61, Cambodia 75-77, North Korea 94-98)


----------



## espola (Jun 29, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Marxists tend not to approve of any particular Marxist state.
> 
> Something about the state engineered famines makes it awkward to talk about.
> 
> (USSR 32-33, PRC 59-61, Cambodia 75-77, North Korea 94-98)


There has never been a single purely Marxist state in the history of the world.  There have been several attempts, but in general, they have fallen apart when the bureaucratic hierarchy starts demanding privileges above those granted to the masses they supposedly serve.


----------



## MSK357 (Jun 30, 2020)

espola said:


> There has never been a single purely Marxist state in the history of the world.  There have been several attempts, but in general, they have fallen apart when the bureaucratic hierarchy starts demanding privileges above those granted to the masses they supposedly serve.


That's usually what happens what the bureaucratic hierarchy control everything.


----------



## Chalklines (Jun 30, 2020)

Kiss of death for youth sports









						California Coronavirus Update: Governor Gavin Newsom Indicates L.A. County Could Close Back Down Soon: “We Will Be Stepping Up Our Enforcement”
					

“Transmission is increasing in the state,” said California Governor Gavin Newsom said plainly at his Monday coronavirus press briefing. Accordingly, Newsom said he would likely be using…




					deadline.com


----------



## Copa9 (Jun 30, 2020)

Lionel Hutz said:


> Hahaha -- this is too much! Pray tell what exactly they are lying about?


Grace probably doesn't even begin to comprehend the complexity of producing an effective vaccine.  Some of the best scientific minds in the world are trying to find an good vaccine. But hey, guess she is an expert.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Grace probably doesn't even begin to comprehend the complexity of producing an effective vaccine.  Some of the best scientific minds in the world are trying to find an good vaccine. But hey, guess she is an expert.


While I think a vaccine will eventually be produced (though it may not be 100% effective or a magic bullet), and while I'm not sure of it, I've begun to suspect Fauci is deliberately being misleading about the timetable for producing a vaccine.  Given his history of lying (admittedly about the masks, and suspectedly about the length of the lockdowns), I think he is painting a rosy picture to try and keep people in line (knowing if he were to say summer 2021-late 2021 people would just say f this and rebel but if it's only a few months they are more likely to hold it together for longer).  We already know despite the AAP paper, his preference leans towards keeping the schools closed.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 30, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> While I think a vaccine will eventually be produced (though it may not be 100% effective or a magic bullet), and while I'm not sure of it, I've begun to suspect Fauci is deliberately being misleading about the timetable for producing a vaccine.  Given his history of lying (admittedly about the masks, and suspectedly about the length of the lockdowns), I think he is painting a rosy picture to try and keep people in line (knowing if he were to say summer 2021-late 2021 people would just say f this and rebel but if it's only a few months they are more likely to hold it together for longer).  We already know despite the AAP paper, his preference leans towards keeping the schools closed.


Grace, you will never be allowed to go on "The Good News" thread if you keep taking the high road when baited. ;-)


----------



## dad4 (Jun 30, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> While I think a vaccine will eventually be produced (though it may not be 100% effective or a magic bullet), and while I'm not sure of it, I've begun to suspect Fauci is deliberately being misleading about the timetable for producing a vaccine.  Given his history of lying (admittedly about the masks, and suspectedly about the length of the lockdowns), I think he is painting a rosy picture to try and keep people in line (knowing if he were to say summer 2021-late 2021 people would just say f this and rebel but if it's only a few months they are more likely to hold it together for longer).  We already know despite the AAP paper, his preference leans towards keeping the schools closed.


what makes you think he knows?

Oxford is starting trials in Brazil and South Africa because they need more data.   That’s just another way of saying they don’t know yet.


----------



## kickingandscreaming (Jun 30, 2020)

dad4 said:


> what makes you think he knows?
> 
> Oxford is starting trials in Brazil and South Africa because they need more data.   That’s just another way of saying they don’t know yet.


Yes, specifically they are doing that because higher rates of infection will yield more reliable test results. My point being only that they haven't had any setbacks yet.

_Soweto, South Africa_ — Britain's Prince William went to Oxford University on Wednesday to meet patients taking part in a human trial of a promising coronavirus vaccine. But with cases of COVID-19 plummeting in England, researchers fear the trial involving 10,000 people may not yield results conclusive enough to prove the vaccine works. 









						With coronavirus fading in UK, Oxford vaccine trial expands into hard-hit South Africa and Brazil
					

Oxford University team's drug is a leading contender, but there isn't enough virus still circulating in England for a trial there to work alone.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2020)

dad4 said:


> what makes you think he knows?
> 
> Oxford is starting trials in Brazil and South Africa because they need more data.   That’s just another way of saying they don’t know yet.


You're right. Maybe he doesn't.  But if he doesn't, why is he saying anything?


----------



## Lionel Hutz (Jun 30, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> While I think a vaccine will eventually be produced (though it may not be 100% effective or a magic bullet), and while I'm not sure of it, I've begun to suspect Fauci is deliberately being misleading about the timetable for producing a vaccine.


This is my bailiwick and it is clear from this comment that you are out of your depth here. I will just leave it at that.


----------



## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2020)

Lionel Hutz said:


> This is my bailiwick and it is clear from this comment that you are out of your depth here. I will just leave it at that.


I thought your bailiwick was chasing ambulances and the finer aspects of liquor?    

p.s. I am persuadable on this point so dazzle me. with your argument.


----------



## watfly (Jun 30, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> While I think a vaccine will eventually be produced (though it may not be 100% effective or a magic bullet), and while I'm not sure of it, I've begun to suspect Fauci is deliberately being misleading about the timetable for producing a vaccine.  Given his history of lying (admittedly about the masks, and suspectedly about the length of the lockdowns), I think he is painting a rosy picture to try and keep people in line (knowing if he were to say summer 2021-late 2021 people would just say f this and rebel but if it's only a few months they are more likely to hold it together for longer).  We already know despite the AAP paper, his preference leans towards keeping the schools closed.


In defense of Fauci, I don't know that he is being intentionally misleading, but I think he's giving himself wide latitude in his responses so he is never totally wrong. (i.e. he might of learned from his mask debacle) Agreed, the vaccine is not a magic bullet, nor the deciding benchmark factor that some are making it out to be.  We're doing much better with therapeutics and treatment protocols, I understand that hospital stays for Covid have been shortened significantly.  We're also doing a much better job of protecting the vulnerable as evidenced by the significant decrease in deaths.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 30, 2020)

Grace T. said:


> I thought your bailiwick was chasing ambulances and the finer aspects of liquor?
> 
> p.s. I am persuadable on this point so dazzle me. with your argument.


You haven’t figured out that Hutz is the only one here who knows what he’s talking about?


----------



## espola (Jun 30, 2020)

espola said:


> Most people that argue communism vs capitalism have little idea what either one is.


In defense of capitalism, I notice that on the back of my Safeway receipt is a coupon for 20% off at a pot shop.


----------



## Lionel Hutz (Jun 30, 2020)

dad4 said:


> You haven’t figured out that Hutz is the only one here who knows what he’s talking about?


I just know my lane and choose not to spread misinformation by pretending to know others.


----------



## chiefs (Jul 1, 2020)

watfly said:


> In defense of Fauci, I don't know that he is being intentionally misleading, but I think he's giving himself wide latitude in his responses so he is never totally wrong. (i.e. he might of learned from his mask debacle) Agreed, the vaccine is not a magic bullet, nor the deciding benchmark factor that some are making it out to be.  We're doing much better with therapeutics and treatment protocols, I understand that hospital stays for Covid have been shortened significantly.  We're also doing a much better job of protecting the vulnerable as evidenced by the significant decrease in deaths.


Dr Fauci and team (including short sighted governors-politicians) haven't a care for the the long term mental effects of our children:









						UW Health research study results show significant and alarming mental health impacts on school closures and sport cancellations
					

Results from a much-anticipated research study led by Dr. Tim McGuine, a UW health researcher and member of the WIAA Sports Medical Advisory Committee, have been made public, painting a more complete picture of the impact of the school closures and sports shutdowns resulting from the coronavirus pan




					www.wissports.net


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 1, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Dr Fauci and team (including short sighted governors-politicians) haven't a care for the the long term mental effects of our children:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One reason I hated school was science teachers.  Oh my, did I have fun with one lady.  I used to argue with her over evolution and all that stuff.  I told her in front of the class that God made everything and the class agreed with me.  She was after me after that debate in class.  She was insane.  I think she studied rocks and had names for them and actually talked to them.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 1, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Dr Fauci and team (including short sighted governors-politicians) haven't a care for the the long term mental effects of our children:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look Chiefs, I get that we are all frustrated.  We spent over three months on lockdown and we are just slightly better off than we were in March.  And I don't always agree with Newsome, like when he closed the beaches early on.  Other than the 4th of July, there is plenty of space at the beach to spread yourself out.  

However, you have to remember that governors govern to the lowest common denominator.  You and I can have a safe gathering at our homes (I've had a few and attended a few); I can take that 35 mph curve at 70; etc.  I'm pretty sure all of us on here are NOT the lowest common denominator and hence the frustration.  

But with Texas, Florida, and Arizona rolling back their reopenings, that Blue v. Red state argument is dead.  We are literally all in this together.  There is no way around it, this is the new normal.  We will be up and down, reopening and shutting/rolling back, until December (hopefully!!).  That is depressing!  

And I agree with Watfly that the only thing we can do NOW is be as smart as possible.


----------



## watfly (Jul 1, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Look Chiefs, I get that we are all frustrated.  We spent over three months on lockdown and we are just slightly better off than we were in March.  And I don't always agree with Newsome, like when he closed the beaches early on.  Other than the 4th of July, there is plenty of space at the beach to spread yourself out.
> 
> However, you have to remember that governors govern to the lowest common denominator.  You and I can have a safe gathering at our homes (I've had a few and attended a few); I can take that 35 mph curve at 70; etc.  I'm pretty sure all of us on here are NOT the lowest common denominator and hence the frustration.
> 
> ...


I agree, and I would just like to add that it's not a Blue vs. Red reaction that were having currently because the rolling back of certain activities is based on data and common sense, plus its targeted and not blanketed.  It's when we have arbitrary or blanket decisions based on what appears to be politics that it becomes a Blue/Red thing, and results in people taking the mandates less seriously, even the reasonable ones like masks.  I would imagine that the majority of us, regardless of which way we lean (or teeter on the far ends), think that the closing of the bars is a good idea.

I still want kids physically back in school and preferably without major restrictions as is recommended by the Academy of Pediatrics.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 1, 2020)

watfly said:


> I agree, and I would just like to add that it's not a Blue vs. Red reaction that were having currently because the rolling back of certain activities is based on data and common sense, plus its targeted and not blanketed.  It's when we have arbitrary or blanket decisions based on what appears to be politics that it becomes a Blue/Red thing, and results in people taking the mandates less seriously, even the reasonable ones like masks.  I would imagine that the majority of us, regardless of which way we lean (or teeter on the far ends), think that the closing of the bars is a good idea.
> 
> *I still want kids physically back in school and preferably without major restrictions as is recommended by the Academy of Pediatrics.*


Look, we have some very selfish adults and it's sad.  I've never seen anything like what I'm noticing.  I see some who say they care but their lives the last 20 years has nothing to show.  Now they say they care about others.....lol!!!  I would stay home forever so kids can play and be kids and have a normal life.  I mean that 100%.  I had a good run, let kids have a life.


----------



## chiefs (Jul 1, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Look Chiefs, I get that we are all frustrated.  We spent over three months on lockdown and we are just slightly better off than we were in March.  And I don't always agree with Newsome, like when he closed the beaches early on.  Other than the 4th of July, there is plenty of space at the beach to spread yourself out.
> 
> However, you have to remember that governors govern to the lowest common denominator.  You and I can have a safe gathering at our homes (I've had a few and attended a few); I can take that 35 mph curve at 70; etc.  I'm pretty sure all of us on here are NOT the lowest common denominator and hence the frustration.
> 
> ...


Not saying it's a blue/red issue, its a leadership issue or lack there of. In our particular state, Newsome said he would listen to science.  Well LISTEN! Kids are more harmed mentally from the shutdown, than the virus itself.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 1, 2020)

chiefs said:


> Not saying it's a blue/red issue, its a leadership issue or lack there of. In our particular state, Newsome said he would listen to science.  Well LISTEN! Kids are more harmed mentally from the shutdown, than the virus itself.


Chiefs, you need to chill out bro.  These people do not care about kids.  No sir, they come first.  Nov 4th we should know our future.


----------



## Glitterhater (Jul 1, 2020)

Selfishly, I want to loosen restrictions on sports because I don't feel our current "allowed" activities at practice are any where near the $200+ / month dues we are paying. But, here I am... paying the god damn dues!


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 1, 2020)

Now offering Club Soccer Insurance or CSI......lol.  Pay $19.95 a month and if the season is cancelled for any reason, ((Earthquake, Flood like Noah's Ark, Virus, ect)) you get all your money back.  CSI might want to wait until next year to take orders for the 2021-2022 seasons but I like the idea.......


----------



## jpeter (Jul 1, 2020)

Lionel Hutz said:


> I just know my lane and choose not to spread misinformation by pretending to know others.


Really I thought it was all those 9000 episodes or whatever of the Simpson's.  Bound to get some predictions close after all the possible material covered.


----------



## jpeter (Jul 1, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Now offering Club Soccer Insurance or CSI......lol.  Pay $19.95 a month and if the season is cancelled for any reason, ((Earthquake, Flood like Noah's Ark, Virus, ect)) you get all your money back.  CSI might want to wait until next year to take orders for the 2021-2022 seasons but I like the idea.......


Insurance business is a good racket...


----------



## Eagle33 (Jul 1, 2020)

Here we go.....
Effective immediately, 19 counties must close indoors operations for the following sectors: - Restaurants - Wineries - Movie theaters & family entertainment - Zoos, museums - Cardrooms 
Bars must close ALL operations.


----------



## Red card (Jul 1, 2020)

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/   some easy reading.  We got got


----------



## Jose has returned (Jul 1, 2020)

Red card said:


> https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/   some easy reading.  We got got


 damn we have been had!  read to the end


----------



## Justafan (Jul 1, 2020)

Jose has returned said:


> damn we have been had!  read to the end


If we've been had, whose responsibility is that?


----------



## watfly (Jul 1, 2020)

Red card said:


> https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/   some easy reading.  We got got


In all fairness, while I believe the article presents substantial evidence to support many of the points and they're very valid, they're also cherry picking facts on some of their points, and get conspiratorial at the end.  I looked the website up because I was suspicious, and sure enough its known for conspiracy theories and pseudoscience.  Doesn't mean throw the baby out with the bathwater, just take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2020)

Red card said:


> https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/   some easy reading.  We got got











						Swiss Policy Research
					

CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence.




					mediabiasfactcheck.com


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 1, 2020)

Copa9 said:


> Grace probably doesn't even begin to comprehend the complexity of producing an effective vaccine.  Some of the best scientific minds in the world are trying to find an good vaccine. But hey, guess she is an expert.


...yet strangely Grace appears to comprehend the simplicity of using "a" vs. "an"


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 1, 2020)

Lionel Hutz said:


> This is my bailiwick and it is clear from this comment that you are out of your depth here. I will just leave it at that.


With the effectiveness of seasonal flu vacines averaging 50-60%...what vaccine effectiveness average, if we get one at all, does Mr. Bailiwick predict for Covid-19?


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 1, 2020)

espola said:


> Swiss Policy Research
> 
> 
> CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence.
> ...


It would make more sense to dispute the claims if in the link, if you can. Media bias is present from CNN to Fox News. Both networks can be called mixed when it comes to facts SPR is no different.


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 1, 2020)

Justafan said:


> If we've been had, whose responsibility is that?


... ultimately, We The People.


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> It would make more sense to dispute the claims if in the link, if you can. Media bias is present from CNN to Fox News. Both networks can be called mixed when it comes to facts SPR is no different.


I read most of the article.  Then I tried to find out who they are from their own website - no luck (maybe it's in the parts in German).  Then I sought an independent opinion.

You can make up your own mind.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 1, 2020)

espola said:


> I read most of the article.  Then I tried to find out who they are from their own website - no luck (maybe it's in the parts in German).  Then I sought an independent opinion.
> 
> You can make up your own mind.


So out of the many individual claims, you can't find one to dispute? Instead you post a fact check that says as far as media bias its mixed results. Lol. Thats a safe way of saying sometimes they get it right and sometimes they dont. So basically you posted nothing of value once again. Got it. Lol


----------



## espola (Jul 1, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> So out of the many individual claims, you can't find one to dispute? Instead you post a fact check that says as far as media bias its mixed results. Lol. Thats a safe way of saying sometimes they get it right and sometimes they dont. So basically you posted nothing of value once again. Got it. Lol


It's a hodgepodge of provably true facts, probably false lies, speculation, and conspiracy nonsense.  Maybe it lost something in the translation.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

Imagine where we're at - having to explain and defend oneself for standing during our country's National Anthem!

Democrats, your party owns this radical America hating BS and your individual silence speaks volumes!









						After backlash for not kneeling with NWSL teammates, Rachel Hill explains why she didn't join racial inequality protest
					

Casey Short, Julie Ertz and their Chicago Red Stars teammates knelt during the national anthem. One player did not, however.




					www.google.com


----------



## gotothebushes (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Imagine where we're at - having to explain and defend oneself for standing during our country's National Anthem!
> 
> Democrats, your party owns this radical America hating BS and your individual silence speaks volumes!
> 
> ...


Radical American Hating BS?  Please watch 13 on Netflix and get back to me please!!


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 2, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Radical American Hating BS?  Please watch 13 on Netflix and get back to me please!!


Isn't that about the crime bill that Joe Biden Wrote to put black americans in prison?


----------



## Dummy (Jul 2, 2020)

For better or worse, youth club soccer is non-essential.  I think that many folks come here to looking for information that can help them help their kids make the best possible youth club soccer decisions.

I have a daughter that made it through durning the best of times. She plays soccer in a college program not trying to complete for a national championship. I hope that she sits this fall out and focuses on school, but the decision is hers.

My 7th grade son is on a wonderful team with a great coach.  The club is doing everything right from my perspective.  We gladly paid our dues up front for the entire season.  We will be holding him out until COVID runs its course, which we are resigned to mean no 2020-21 season.

The most reliable source for information and education that I have found is CIDRAP at University of Minnesota.









						Homepage | CIDRAP
					






					www.cidrap.umn.edu
				




The Osterholm Update is a podcast the helps me put things in perspective.

Thank you to the many posters that have helped our family make better soccer decisions over the many years. Good luck to all.


----------



## gotothebushes (Jul 2, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> Isn't that about the crime bill that Joe Biden Wrote to put black americans in prison?


Jesus! Watch please!


----------



## watfly (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Imagine where we're at - having to explain and defend oneself for standing during our country's National Anthem!
> 
> Democrats, your party owns this radical America hating BS and your individual silence speaks volumes!
> 
> ...


Why do have to make this such a divisive matter?  Have a kneeling moment of silence to recognize we've come a long way in our fight against racism but still have a ways to go.  Then stand for the flag and the Star Spangled Banner out of respect for our Country and in unity to fight racism.  No one should have to justify why they stand for the flag.  Make this a win/win, and not a win/lose and divide the country any further.


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 2, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Jesus! Watch please!


I did. Since the 13th amendment, democrats passed laws targeting black americans.  From Jim Crow (Southern Democrats) to War on Drugs (Passed the Democrat controlled congress) to the Crime bill (written by Joe Biden and passed by Clinton).  Facts. Prove me wrong.  The documentary can spin it all they want.  But democrats had a strong hand on everything that could be considered systemic racism in this country.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Just a taste of a Biden presidency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Joe, go on down to LAPD HQ and cheer ‘em up! I’ll go with you. 
With your charm and inclusiveness and my good looks, we’ll get their morale back up in no time.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> Hey Joe, go on down to LAPD HQ and cheer ‘em up! I’ll go with you.
> With your charm and inclusiveness and my good looks, we’ll get their morale back up in no time.


Will you wear a dress and heels, Methy?


----------



## gotothebushes (Jul 2, 2020)

MSK357 said:


> I did. Since the 13th amendment, democrats passed laws targeting black americans.  From Jim Crow (Southern Democrats) to War on Drugs (Passed the Democrat controlled congress) to the Crime bill (written by Joe Biden and passed by Clinton).  Facts. Prove me wrong.  The documentary can spin it all they want.  But democrats had a strong hand on everything that could be considered systemic racism in this country.


 Clearly you're missing the point on the facts. It's clear you have your mind made up and I don't have the energy to prove you wrong with Biden, Trump or the Clintons. So back to soccer- What's going to be the first Tournament played for the 03/04, and 05's?


----------



## MSK357 (Jul 2, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Clearly you're missing the point on the facts. It's clear you have your mind made up and I don't have the energy to prove you wrong with Biden, Trump or the Clintons. So back to soccer- What's going to be the first Tournament played for the 03/04, and 05's?


The good thing about facts is its always true despite differing opinions.  I don't blame you for not being able to prove me wrong.  As far as Tournaments in those age groups mine are still young so I don't expect any tournaments this year.  At least not until elections are over.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

watfly said:


> Why do have to make this such a divisive matter?  Have a kneeling moment of silence to recognize we've come a long way in our fight against racism but still have a ways to go.  Then stand for the flag and the Star Spangled Banner out of respect for our Country and in unity to fight racism.  No one should have to justify why they stand for the flag.  Make this a win/win, and not a win/lose and divide the country any further.


Why do have to make this such a divisive matter?  Have a kneeling moment during the anthem if you want to recognize we've come a long way in our fight against racism but still have a ways to go.  Then play the game.  No one should have to justify why they stand for the flag or why they don’t.  Make this a win/win, and not a win/lose and divide the country any further.

Trying to tell people they need to do what you want the way you want, followed by accusing them of being divisive shows an epic lack of self-awarenesse.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Why do have to make this such a divisive matter?  Have a kneeling moment during the anthem if you want to recognize we've come a long way in our fight against racism but still have a ways to go.  Then play the game.  No one should have to justify why they stand for the flag or why they don’t.  Make this a win/win, and not a win/lose and divide the country any further.
> 
> Trying to tell people they need to do what you want the way you want, followed by accusing them of being divisive shows an epic lack of self-awarenesse.


Like changing names, tearing down statues, painting streets and demanding things from governors?  Yeah, that's a lack of self-awareness, alright.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> Radical American Hating BS?  Please watch 13 on Netflix and get back to me please!!


Screw you and your leftist propaganda! 

Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


----------



## watfly (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Why do have to make this such a divisive matter?  Have a kneeling moment during the anthem if you want to recognize we've come a long way in our fight against racism but still have a ways to go.  Then play the game.  No one should have to justify why they stand for the flag or why they don’t.  Make this a win/win, and not a win/lose and divide the country any further.
> 
> Trying to tell people they need to do what you want the way you want, followed by accusing them of being divisive shows an epic lack of self-awarenesse.


Fair point, other than your ubiquitous ad hominem.  Yes, no one should have to explain themselves whether they're kneeling or standing.  IMO my point is that it makes both messages stronger by giving a specific platform for the battle against racism and showing respect for our country, instead of mixing the messages.  By standing for the flag you're not condoning everything our country does or has done.  If you don't respect the flag or our country because of its ills, that's your right, but kneeling during the anthem is just a token gesture of PC virtue signaling.  Instead, do something substantive to improve our country.  I believe we all have a responsibility to improve our country even its just raising our kids to be good and productive citizens.

I would happily kneel for a moment of silence against racism, and even though I have some issues with the platform of the BLM organization (like the disruption of the nuclear family, I think we can embrace all types of families) I can see the bigger picture.   

So maybe I do lack self-awareness, if that requires me to be "woke".  No thanks, I'll take common sense over being woke any day.


----------



## paytoplay (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


I find false patriotism more offensive than kneeling. Meanwhile, y’all are not sacrificing shit to make this country a better place to live. Probably as selfish as the next person when it comes to daily living and interacting with your fellow citizens, taking advantage of others, road raging, last ones to volunteer for soccer team shit. Look in the mirror.


----------



## gotothebushes (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


 Screw me? Social distance please? Stay 6ft away please!


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2020)

watfly said:


> Fair point, other than your ubiquitous ad hominem.  Yes, no one should have to explain themselves whether they're kneeling or standing.  IMO my point is that it makes both messages stronger by giving a specific platform for the battle against racism and showing respect for our country, instead of mixing the messages.  By standing for the flag you're not condoning everything our country does or has done.  If you don't respect the flag or our country because of its ills, that's your right, but kneeling during the anthem is just a token gesture of PC virtue signaling.  Instead, do something substantive to improve our country.  I believe we all have a responsibility to improve our country even its just raising our kids to be good and productive citizens.
> 
> I would happily kneel for a moment of silence against racism, and even though I have some issues with the platform of the BLM organization (like the disruption of the nuclear family, I think we can embrace all types of families) I can see the bigger picture.
> 
> So maybe I do lack self-awareness, if that requires me to be "woke".  No thanks, I'll take common sense over being woke any day.


What do you mean by "the platform of the BLM organization (like the disruption of the nuclear family"?


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> I find false patriotism more offensive than kneeling. Meanwhile, y’all are not sacrificing shit to make this country a better place to live. Probably as selfish as the next person when it comes to daily living and interacting with your fellow citizens, taking advantage of others, road raging, last ones to volunteer for soccer team shit. Look in the mirror.


As soon as someone says "I'm a patriot" or "I'm a Christian," look out for hate and values completely antithetical to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or Jesus.
Same with "I'm for family values." That means they're cheating on their wife...probably with a man.
When they have to say it about themselves, you know they ain't it.
So Met61 does not, for example, believe in American values of protest and free speech.


----------



## Desert Hound (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> As soon as someone says "I'm a patriot" or "I'm a Christian," look out for hate and values completely antithetical to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or Jesus.
> Same with "I'm for family values." That means they're cheating on their wife...probably with a man.
> When they have to say it about themselves, you know they ain't it.
> So Met61 does not, for example, believe in American values of protest and free speech.


So using your examples. 

When Dems claim systematic racism is the root of the issue regarding police in the cities or states they run...that means they are the ones who are racists right?


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> So using your examples.
> 
> When Dems claim systematic racism is the root of the issue regarding police in the cities or states they run...that means they are the ones who are racists right?


How’s the upcoming ECNL season shaping up for ya’ll this season? Looking forward to playing all those SoCal clubs this fall? 

You might want to look into plan B and local teams like I recommended a few months back. Oh how the time flies when I’m right!


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> So using your examples.
> 
> When Dems claim systematic racism is the root of the issue regarding police in the cities or states they run...that means they are the ones who are racists right?


Not quite.
If a Dem, or anyone else, starts proclaiming “I am not a racist,” then bet that (s)he is.


----------



## watfly (Jul 2, 2020)

espola said:


> What do you mean by "the platform of the BLM organization (like the disruption of the nuclear family"?


What do you mean by "what do you mean"?  Its one of the tenets of their movement.  Check out their website.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

watfly said:


> What do you mean by "what do you mean"?  Its one of the tenets of their movement.  Check out their website.


They say this...

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


Drew Brees would like to have a word with you.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2020)

Desert Hound said:


> So using your examples.
> 
> When Dems claim systematic racism is the root of the issue regarding police in the cities or states they run...that means they are the ones who are racists right?


Coocoo.


----------



## espola (Jul 2, 2020)

watfly said:


> What do you mean by "what do you mean"?  Its one of the tenets of their movement.  Check out their website.


Please share a link.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

Source: NFL plans to play Black anthem Week 1
					

The NFL is considering a variety of measures during the upcoming season to recognize victims of recent police brutality, a source familiar with the league's discussions told The Undefeated on Thursday.




					www.espn.com
				




Oh snap.  Clever attempt to end run kneelers. Or is it a hail mary?

I guess we’ll see which fans are respectful and which ones make their own (racist) point by using this time get a hot dog and drown their sorrows in more Bud Light. Ha ha, these POS jingoistic racists got their panties in such a bunch over a couple kneelers, that now they get the kneelers and three minutes of civil rights preaching in a song!


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> I find false patriotism more offensive than kneeling. Meanwhile, y’all are not sacrificing shit to make this country a better place to live. Probably as selfish as the next person when it comes to daily living and interacting with your fellow citizens, taking advantage of others, road raging, last ones to volunteer for soccer team shit. Look in the mirror.


Who is "y'all"?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> They say this...
> 
> We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.


They sure as shit disrupt the nuclear family structure.  Nothing says "success" like 5 kids in a single parent household.  Congratulations!  In fact, they care for each other SO much, that only 20% of black on black murders are ever solved.  Dayum!  That's some woke shit.  Black Lives Matter (if a white cop is involved).  Any chance black males could try using some "Western-prescribed" contraceptives for a change?  Maybe keep a "Western-prescribed" job so they can pay their "Western-prescribed" child support?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Drew Brees would like to have a word with you.


Drew Brees meant what he said the first time.  Unfortunately he lives in an area where black people would have no problem smashing his gate down and threatening his family.


----------



## SoccerFan4Life (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


apparently they caught your kkk cousins on video.
You said screw them trying to kneel and now they protest.  I’d prefer they kneel.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> They say this...
> 
> We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.







__





						It takes a village - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> apparently they caught your kkk cousins on video.
> You said screw them trying to kneel and now they protest.  I’d prefer they kneel.


Trump flags with Confederate flags.
This is why he loses.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

They’re showing a Galaxy scrimmage on TV and they interviewed Sacha Kljestan.
He started discussing BLM and being an example for his kids and closed with “and of course, the big change we need in November, so we all gotta go vote.”
Trump is a uniter!


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

paytoplay said:


> I find false patriotism more offensive than kneeling. Meanwhile, y’all are not sacrificing shit to make this country a better place to live. Probably as selfish as the next person when it comes to daily living and interacting with your fellow citizens, taking advantage of others, road raging, last ones to volunteer for soccer team shit. Look in the mirror.


"You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who who fought for it, life has a flavor the protected shall never know."


----------



## gotothebushes (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.











						NFL to play Black national anthem 'Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing' before 'Star Spangled Banner' at Week 1 games
					

The league is also considering helmet decals to jersey patches for victims of police brutality




					www.google.com


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> Trump flags with Confederate flags.
> This is why he loses.


...yawn, same old tired race card.

BTW, ask HidenBiden about busing and crime bill...or if he thinks Heels-Up- Harris is "black enough" to be VP.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Drew Brees would like to have a word with you.


You mean On Bended Knees Brees? Who spoke his mind then lifted his skirt and screamed like a school girl when pressured. No thanks, I have no time for cowards.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

gotothebushes said:


> NFL to play Black national anthem 'Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing' before 'Star Spangled Banner' at Week 1 games
> 
> 
> The league is also considering helmet decals to jersey patches for victims of police brutality
> ...


"click"


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

espola said:


> Coocoo.


"Link"


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

MacDre said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, HRC's book... I'm sure you're still sporting the "I'm With Her" tee, skinny jeans and pleather murse.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Ah, HRC's book... I'm sure you're still sporting the "I'm With Her" tee, skinny jeans and pleather murse.


Actually the wiki is the phrase from which her title was derived.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> ...yawn, same old tired race card.
> 
> BTW, ask HidenBiden about busing and crime bill...or if he thinks Heels-Up- Harris is "black enough" to be VP.


You can always ask him yourself by writing a letter to the White House in January, genius.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Ah, HRC's book... I'm sure you're still sporting the "I'm With Her" tee, skinny jeans and pleather murse.


I think you need a hug?


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think you need a hug?


Gotta a root you're welcome to hug.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> You can always ask him yourself by writing a letter to the White House in January, genius.


If he remembers where the White House is, or how to read a letter. No, you CrazyJoe believers are the real "geniuses" LOL!!!


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who who fought for it, life has a flavor the protected shall never know."


Ooh, quote fun. Yours is by a 19th french guy who predated modern warfare, did not serve and is known as the father of the short story. Very romantic. What is strange, though, is I don’t see any reference to the flag.

My turn:

There are those who wrap themselves in flags and blow the tinny trumpet of patriotism as a means of fooling the people.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> If he remembers where the White House is, or how to read a letter. No, you CrazyJoe believers are the real "geniuses" LOL!!!


Again, write a letter to the White House next year and if you are nice, perhaps he will respond.
In the meantime, enjoy the leadership skills we observe in our current, one-term President.
I understand you’re angry. Use it productively and be careful out there, son.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Source: NFL plans to play Black anthem Week 1
> 
> 
> The NFL is considering a variety of measures during the upcoming season to recognize victims of recent police brutality, a source familiar with the league's discussions told The Undefeated on Thursday.
> ...


Something tells me you won't be gleefully polishing your tiny helmet if players kneeled in protest during it's playing. In fact, I'm willing to bet we'd witness a classic double standard from Dems and their media lap dogs - any takers?


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Something tells me you won't be gleefully polishing your tiny helmet if players kneeled in protest during it's playing. In fact, I'm willing to bet we'd witness a classic double standard from Dems and their media lap dogs - any takers?


I’m pretty sure, at this point, that you’re Russian.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Ooh, quote fun. Yours is by a 19th french guy who predated modern warfare, did not serve and is known as the father of the short story. Very romantic. What is strange, though, is I don’t see any reference to the flag.
> 
> My turn:
> 
> There are those who wrap themselves in flags and blow the tinny trumpet of patriotism as a means of fooling the people.


Actually, it was revived for use during Vietnam and subsequent Wars. Something I don't expect you soft palmed circle-jerkers to relate to from the confines of your ACLU Birkenstock echo chamber.


----------



## met61 (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> I’m pretty sure, at this point, that you’re Russian.


Seriously needle dick, you're like a gnat, a minor nuisance and irrelevant. Buzz off.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Seriously needle dick, you're like a gnat, a minor nuisance and irrelevant. Buzz off.


Please say it in your native tongue, son.
This is clearly a put-on. You’re a well-trained Russian troll.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Actually, it was revived for use during Vietnam and subsequent Wars. Something I don't expect you soft palmed circle-jerkers to relate to from the confines of your ACLU Birkenstock echo chamber.


Tsk tsk...somebody’s jealllous!
You’re not as bad as you think you are, son.
Try to have a nice weekend and say hi to Vlad for us.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 2, 2020)

met61 said:


> Seriously needle dick, you're like a gnat, a minor nuisance and irrelevant. Buzz off.


Good job @messy!  You pushed him over the cliff. By tomorrow he’ll have posted ten times in a row and dropped the N-bomb, just like the last guy who lost his way at a youth soccer website.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Good job @messy!  You pushed him over the cliff. By tomorrow he’ll have posted ten times in a row and dropped the N-bomb, just like the last guy who lost his way at a youth soccer website.


These weirdo angry pussies like met61 and Outlaw are all wound a little tight...it doesn’t take much to push them over the edge.
It used to be had to scratch the surface a bit to reveal the cowardly racism underneath.
Now that our President is full-blown White supremacist, guys like this are right out in the open. 
Oddly though, they seem to have a bit of a freakazoid community going on, where they all say the same exact things.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> These weirdo angry pussies like met61 and Outlaw are all wound a little tight...it doesn’t take much to push them over the edge.
> It used to be had to scratch the surface a bit to reveal the cowardly racism underneath.
> Now that our President is full-blown White supremacist, guys like this are right out in the open.
> Oddly though, they seem to have a bit of a freakazoid community going on, where they all say the same exact things.


I think they call them SHEEPLE.


----------



## timmyh (Jul 2, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> They sure as shit disrupt the nuclear family structure.  Nothing says "success" like 5 kids in a single parent household.  Congratulations!  In fact, they care for each other SO much, that only 20% of black on black murders are ever solved.  Dayum!  That's some woke shit.  Black Lives Matter (if a white cop is involved).  Any chance black males could try using some "Western-prescribed" contraceptives for a change?  Maybe keep a "Western-prescribed" job so they can pay their "Western-prescribed" child support?


I hope you talk like this in public someday when I'm around and close enough to hear it. Doesn't seem like you'd listen if anybody tried to reason with you and set you straight, but it's been a while since I've had a proper chance to whip somebody's ass.  

You are an embarrassment to the country I love.  I hope you get banned from this place.


----------



## messy (Jul 2, 2020)

timmyh said:


> I hope you talk like this in public someday when I'm around and close enough to hear it. Doesn't seem like you'd listen if anybody tried to reason with you and set you straight, but it's been a while since I've had a proper chance to whip somebody's ass.
> 
> You are an embarrassment to the country I love.  I hope you get banned from this place.


Can’t ban him.
As I mentioned, wackos like him and roger maris (met61) are a fairly large squad in this country at this point...we have to recognize.
We just need to keep reminding them how angry and scared and outnumbered they are, so they climb back under their rocks sometime soon.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

timmyh said:


> I hope you talk like this in public someday when I'm around and close enough to hear it. Doesn't seem like you'd listen if anybody tried to reason with you and set you straight, but it's been a while since I've had a proper chance to whip somebody's ass.
> 
> You are an embarrassment to the country I love.  I hope you get banned from this place.


Would you be able to hear me with your head under the table?

What's wrong, sphincter boy, truth got you all hurt inside?  I spoke the truth.  And the truth is that black people refuse to ever look in the mirror and be held accountable for their actions.  You can get hurt all you want... but what I stated were facts.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 2, 2020)

messy said:


> These weirdo angry pussies like met61 and Outlaw are all wound a little tight...it doesn’t take much to push them over the edge.
> It used to be had to scratch the surface a bit to reveal the cowardly racism underneath.
> Now that our President is full-blown White supremacist, guys like this are right out in the open.
> Oddly though, they seem to have a bit of a freakazoid community going on, where they all say the same exact things.


Cowardly is what you do when bypassing all my posts.  You run right on past them because you know the truth.


----------



## EOTL (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> Actually, it was revived for use during Vietnam and subsequent Wars. Something I don't expect you soft palmed circle-jerkers to relate to from the confines of your ACLU Birkenstock echo chamber.


Birks are great. I think it’s time to disabuse people of the ridiculous notion that servicemen and women deserve some exalted status that requires amykne to think the flag represents them any more than any other person:

Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.

- Henry Kissinger


----------



## met61 (Jul 3, 2020)

EOTL said:


> Birks are great. I think it’s time to disabuse people of the ridiculous notion that servicemen and women deserve some exalted status that requires amykne to think the flag represents them any more than any other person:
> 
> Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.
> 
> - Henry Kissinger


LOL! Sure thing cyber stud. You male-feminist Liberty leeches hide behind keyboards giving fellow noodle armed pinkos reach-a-round while shitting on the very Country you spinless whiners suckle off of.

If you ever grow a pair Mary, you'd be welcome for a sit down at Pendleton to discuss those who serve. Let me know a time that works, you can even bring your nutless posse along.


----------



## messy (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> LOL! Sure thing cyber stud. You male-feminist Liberty leeches hide behind keyboards giving fellow noodle armed pinkos reach-a-round while shitting on the very Country you spinless whiners suckle off of.
> 
> If you ever grow a pair Mary, you'd be welcome for a sit down at Pendleton to discuss those who serve. Let me know a time that works, you can even bring your nutless posse along.


You ain't exactly "the greatest generation" and racism such as yours doesn't deserve to wear a uniform, you fucking coward.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> You ain't exactly "the greatest generation" and racism such as yours doesn't deserve to wear a uniform, *you fucking coward.*


Messy????  Wow, you should be relaxing and enjoying the win sir.  How many avatars are you?  I'm serious, you sound like others.  Are you playing three people all in one and just steering the pot so it boils over and then all the rest of the living water is evaporated like a fart in the win?


----------



## Dominic (Jul 3, 2020)

Moved to Off Topic


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

*What They're Saying: Megan Rapinoe*

by Soccer America , 8 hours ago
"I've definitely thought, 'Is this it?' Because who knows if the Olympics will happen next year? Who knows if we will play another national team this year? Likely not because *no one wants to come here*, and *we’re not probably going to be allowed to go anywhere else*, frankly. *If we don't get a vaccine for three years, we're not going to be playing sports."*


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

That was swift.  Amen bro!!! I'll be honest folks, sometimes I post and I have no idea what thread I'm on.  I will work on my side and make sure to look before I respond to Messy.  Ever feel like this dude?


----------



## messy (Jul 3, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Messy????  Wow, you should be relaxing and enjoying the win sir.  How many avatars are you?  I'm serious, you sound like others.  Are you playing three people all in one and just steering the pot so it boils over and then all the rest of the living water is evaporated like a fart in the win?


Just one of me.
What’s actually good about the Trump era is that he forced America to its bottom in almost every area.
He has exposed the racists and the people who wake up scared and angry about a changing America, so those of us who believe in the changing America can see the darkness and overcome it, as we will.
So calling out the scared and angry people who cover up their fears with guns and macho posturing is actually our duty. They might be in the closet, they might have suffered somehow, but they need to be told their behavior doesn’t work.
After we do that, we tell the Mets and Outlaws and the other poor souls that there is a place for all of us in this country.


----------



## Lion Eyes (Jul 3, 2020)

*Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers*
June 16, 2008

CHICAGO  Addressing a packed congregation at one of the city’s largest black churches, Senator Barack Obama on Sunday invoked his own absent father to deliver a sharp message to African-American men, saying, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

The speech was striking for its setting, and in how Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, directly addressed one of the most sensitive topics in the African-American community: whether absent fathers bore responsibility for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans. Mr. Obama noted that “more than half of all black children live in single-parent households,” a number that he said had doubled since his own childhood.

Accompanied by his wife, Michelle, and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, who sat in the front pew, Mr. Obama laid out his case in stark terms that would be difficult for a white candidate to make, telling the mostly black audience not to “just sit in the house watching SportsCenter,” and to stop praising themselves for mediocre accomplishments.

entire article:








						Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers (Published 2008)
					

In a speech at one of Chicago’s largest black churches, Barack Obama addressed a sensitive topic in the African-American community.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

I just ran into an old neighbor where I used to live in San Clemente back in 04.  I was checking out the waves at T street and low and behold I saw Rawlie.  Dude still lives in his palace.  His crib was the place to be on 4th of July and it was a party every year!!!  I do remember him him being very left leaning and all that.  I never ever debated him on politics.  I just invited him to church once in the two years I was there and he made it very clear he had no interest in church or religion.  After his boundary was put in place, we both became super close friends.  He went through a divorce and I was there for him like I know he would have been for me. Anyway, I mentioned how bummed I was that the beaches were closed for 4th and no fireworks and he went off like no other. His eyes were piercing with red anger!!!  My gosh, I had no idea that he felt this way about the 4th but he does now.  I feel like the two parties I went too were all fake now and now I feel bad he wasn't really enjoying the 4th.  He said 4th is over and no more BS holiday.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Just one of me.
> What’s actually good about the Trump era is that he forced America to its bottom in almost every area.
> He has exposed the racists and the people who wake up scared and angry about a changing America, so those of us who believe in the changing America can see the darkness and overcome it, as we will.
> So calling out the scared and angry people who cover up their fears with guns and macho posturing is actually our duty. They might be in the closet, they might have suffered somehow, but they need to be told their behavior doesn’t work.
> After we do that, we tell the Mets and Outlaws and the other poor souls that there is a place for all of us in this country.


There is a place for you in this country.  But like everyone else, you don't need a parade or special accommodations.  You want equality... be equal.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Can’t ban him.
> As I mentioned, wackos like him and roger maris (met61) are a fairly large squad in this country at this point...we have to recognize.
> We just need to keep reminding them how angry and scared and outnumbered they are, so they climb back under their rocks sometime soon.


Outnumbered?  LMAO!  Maybe in prison... but not in a civilized society.


----------



## met61 (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> You ain't exactly "the greatest generation" and racism such as yours doesn't deserve to wear a uniform, you fucking coward.


Yawn! bzzzzzzzzz -flick!


----------



## met61 (Jul 3, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think they call them SHEEPLE.


Wow! That was original - well done MacVictim!


----------



## messy (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> Yawn! bzzzzzzzzz -flick!











						Trump admits it: He's losing
					

Amid a mountain of bad polling and stark warnings from allies, the president has acknowledged his reelection woes to allies.




					www.google.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> Yawn! bzzzzzzzzz -flick!


----------



## EOTL (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> LOL! Sure thing cyber stud. You male-feminist Liberty leeches hide behind keyboards giving fellow noodle armed pinkos reach-a-round while shitting on the very Country you spinless whiners suckle off of.
> 
> If you ever grow a pair Mary, you'd be welcome for a sit down at Pendleton to discuss those who serve. Let me know a time that works, you can even bring your nutless posse along.


So manly with your camouflage colored pom-poms. Next you’re going to challenge me to wrestle Jim Jordan like your p**y friend Ted Cruz.


----------



## nononono (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> You ain't exactly "the greatest generation" and racism such as yours doesn't deserve to wear a uniform, you fucking coward.


*Hey Low IQ " Messy " Financial......maybe you should sit down and listen to a few active *
*service members ( Enlisted and Officers ) and then you can formulate and informed position...
It appears you get ALL of your information from " Fredo " on CNN....

I interact with a lot of people on a daily basis and I can tell you, very few of them act like you 
" Liberals " on this forum....very few...the ones I do have conversations with I retain the upper
hand at all times as I will NOT capitulate to Progressive/Liberal/Marxist/Communist talking*
*points....they only have one agenda...and AMERICA is Not included in it !


* Just a little advice, if you choose to call ANYONE a " Fucking coward " ( Especially Military ) 
in person .....you better be a Very Very good fighter and have a very good medical/dental plan.*


----------



## nononono (Jul 3, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I just ran into an old neighbor where I used to live in San Clemente back in 04.  I was checking out the waves at T street and low and behold I saw Rawlie.  Dude still lives in his palace.  His crib was the place to be on 4th of July and it was a party every year!!!  I do remember him him being very left leaning and all that.  I never ever debated him on politics.  I just invited him to church once in the two years I was there and he made it very clear he had no interest in church or religion.  After his boundary was put in place, we both became super close friends.  He went through a divorce and I was there for him like I know he would have been for me. Anyway, I mentioned how bummed I was that the beaches were closed for 4th and no fireworks and he went off like no other. His eyes were piercing with red anger!!!  My gosh, I had no idea that he felt this way about the 4th but he does now.  I feel like the two parties I went too were all fake now and now I feel bad he wasn't really enjoying the 4th.  He said 4th is over and no more BS holiday.



*Your post sounds like you have an alter ego.....*


*DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

nononono said:


> *Your post sounds like you have an alter ego.....*
> 
> 
> *DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*


How did you guess that?  I just have lots of friends in all walks of life.  When you a pick side, you lose friends quickly.  I do have a Carl and so do you.  Be nice to him and don't judge yourself so hard.  The more you judge others, the more you judge yourself Mr No.  You tell yourself, "No, you cant do that."  No No No No!!!!"  BTW, I hate that word.  No sucks!!!!


----------



## EOTL (Jul 3, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> How did you guess that?  I just have lots of friends in all walks of life.  When you a pick side, you lose friends quickly.  I do have a Carl and so do you.  Be nice to him and don't judge yourself so hard.  The more you judge others, the more you judge yourself Mr No.  You tell yourself, "No, you cant do that."  No No No No!!!!"  BTW, I hate that word.  No sucks!!!!


@Ellejustus = Aaron Burr


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Just one of me.
> What’s actually good about the Trump era is that he forced America to its bottom in almost every area.
> He has exposed the racists and the people who wake up scared and angry about a changing America, so those of us who believe in the changing America can see the darkness and overcome it, as we will.
> So calling out the scared and angry people who cover up their fears with guns and macho posturing is actually our duty. They might be in the closet, they might have suffered somehow, but they need to be told their behavior doesn’t work.
> After we do that, we tell the Mets and Outlaws and the other poor souls that there is a place for all of us in this country.


They all started mumbling when they saw a black family walk into the "White" House. Now with trump they feel emboldened to stand up loud and proud of their ignorance and hate.


----------



## nononono (Jul 3, 2020)

QUOTE="Ellejustus, post: 339957, member: 440"
How did you guess that ? 
*You didn't...*

 I just have lots of friends in all walks of life.  
*Real or Fake.....*

When you a pick side, you lose friends quickly.  
*Wrong...you gain respect when you pick the CORRECT side..!

A*. I do have a Carl    * B.*  and so do you.  
*A.* You have an alter ego...named Carl...Hmmmmm.
*B*. No....I don't. Just me.

Be nice to him and don't judge yourself so hard. 
*I don't " Judge " myself....I set Goals that involve the TRUTH.
You on the other hand.......*

 The more you judge others, the more you judge yourself Mr No. 
** See the above post. *


You tell yourself, "No, you cant do that."  No No No No!!!!"  
*I never tell myself that...
" No " is a tool ...not a negativity...Think about that !*

BTW, I hate that word.  No sucks!!!!
*I'll bet you do....because you don't understand " Context "*

/QUOTE

*Hey " Carl " or is it " Oedipus " or is it " Caligula "  or is it " Nero " or is it " Marcus Pilatus " ......
.....oh my **you go by a lot...!
*
*" No " is a tool...use it wisely......Think about that !*


----------



## nononono (Jul 3, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They all started mumbling when they saw a black family walk into the "White" House. Now with trump they feel emboldened to stand up loud and proud of their ignorance and hate.



*What " Black " family.....?*

** NO  " Black " Family has ever stepped foot in the White House....!


* PS : Think about it for awhile....*


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

EOTL said:


> @Ellejustus = Aaron Burr


I have no idea who he is.  Is it something to do with being a band wagoner?  Meaning, If USC or UCLA wins in anything I'm happy?  If Dodgers win, me happy.  Angels, hell yes!!!  I love sports and I love winners.  Is that ok?  I'm always looking for free stuff for my dd so if you no any clubs out there offering free tuition, please, by all means, send them my way.  I could use some free handouts....lol.....lol.......lol.......hahahahahahahaha


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 3, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I just have lots of friends in all walks of life.  When you a pick side, you lose friends quickly.


This is the truth...many friends right now are bunkering down with the notion of if you don’t believe what I believe you are not my friend.  I’m seeing it on both sides, lots of close minded behavior about.  You can have a different perspective and opinion and still respect and like one another.  You are either right or left or blue or red.  Pretty sad it has gotten to this.


----------



## met61 (Jul 3, 2020)

EOTL said:


> So manly with your camouflage colored pom-poms. Next you’re going to challenge me to wrestle Jim Jordan like your p**y friend Ted Cruz.


Yep, a pussy. Shocked!


----------



## met61 (Jul 3, 2020)

nononono said:


> *Hey Low IQ " Messy " Financial......maybe you should sit down and listen to a few active *
> *service members ( Enlisted and Officers ) and then you can formulate and informed position...
> It appears you get ALL of your information from " Fredo " on CNN....
> 
> ...


I wish, but it'll never happen, him and his ilk rarely prance very far from the confines of their flowery scented pastel basements.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 3, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ... ultimately, We The People.


Exactly what I thought, you just can’t get yourself to admit it.  Jose, where are you, all you could muster was a thumbs up?  And new tough guy, Met61, why didn’t you answer the question macho man? Typical tough talking cowards.  

You see I can admit that when Biden and Pelosi criticized the travel ban from China, they were wrong and Trump was right.  Period, no discussion, no wiggle room, no ...... “ultimately we the people” pussy bull shit.  Fucking weak!!


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 3, 2020)

Lion Eyes said:


> *Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers*
> June 16, 2008
> 
> CHICAGO  Addressing a packed congregation at one of the city’s largest black churches, Senator Barack Obama on Sunday invoked his own absent father to deliver a sharp message to African-American men, saying, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”
> ...


Something a little more current.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278064470435090438


----------



## MicPaPa (Jul 3, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Exactly what I thought, you just can’t get yourself to admit it.  Jose, where are you, all you could muster was a thumbs up?  And new tough guy, Met61, why didn’t you answer the question macho man? Typical tough talking cowards.
> 
> You see I can admit that when Biden and Pelosi criticized the travel ban from China, they were wrong and Trump was right.  Period, no discussion, no wiggle room, no ...... “ultimately we the people” pussy bull shit.  Fucking weak!!


Oh, a tough guy...LOL! 

Biden can't remember his name and Pelosi can barely speak without choking on her damn dentures...sit your moronic ass down with this clown show you carry spittle for.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 3, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> Oh, a tough guy...LOL!
> 
> Biden can't remember his name and Pelosi can barely speak without choking on her damn dentures...sit your moronic ass down with this clown show you carry spittle for.


Ask yourself why you cannot bring yourself to simply say Trump fucked up? It’s not a reflection of you, so what’s the big deal? What do Biden and Pelosi have to do with Trump’s handling of COVID? It’s not that hard, see I can’t stand Trump, but I can still admit that he was right on the China travel ban and he has done other positive stuff (i.e. 3.5 unemployment before Covid).


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

MicPaPa said:


> ...yet strangely Grace appears to comprehend the simplicity of using "a" vs. "an"


Copa is an illegal alien invader.
Writes like an ESL failure.
Lives off of the benefits of affirmative action.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Hey Joe, go on down to LAPD HQ and cheer ‘em up! I’ll go with you.
> With your charm and inclusiveness and my good looks, we’ll get their morale back up in no time.


Ok, I will pick you up, I promise to bring my firearm to protect us from the trannies.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 3, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Ask yourself why you cannot bring yourself to simply say Trump fucked up? It’s not a reflection of you, so what’s the big deal? What do Biden and Pelosi have to do with Trump’s handling of COVID? It’s not that hard, see I can’t stand Trump, but I can still admit that he was right on the China travel ban and he has done other positive stuff (i.e. 3.5 unemployment before Covid).


I think they all f up one way or another as well.  t was not prepared for this and he got played so many times, so he f up too.  Deal with it is my motto. I will say I have never seen a President go through the crap he's had to deal with.  He brings a lot of this on himself as well.  I have an old business partner who had his 75 birthday party in Scottsdale last year.  Coolest partner I ever had.  Anyway, super liberal white Jewish millionaire originally from the Bronx.  A big Dodger fan I might add but he still likes the D backs when they win.  IBM hired him to open up the Phoenix market in 72' and he started selling big giant computers and made some good coin.  However, he and his buddy saw software and code as way to make MRC revenue and they both left IBM and made millions.  He hated t so much and when t won he wouldnt talk to me for over a week.  He was one of the community leaders that got the, "get out and vote for Hillary."  We both thought Hillary was 99% a winner. He was so pissed off.  It was a Halloween costume party/75th bday so I cam as Trump, no joke.  Socks, shirt, mega hat and the works.  I showed up alone because wifey couldnt make it and it went horrible.  It was not funny at all for him and I felt horrible and it made Lew pissed off and I was asked to change.  No joke and it was all a big joke.  His son was total partier at ASU and cared for no one when I knew him as a rich kid.  Now he's on the JB get out and vote.  He told me I was stupid for pulling that stunt.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> Screw you and your leftist propaganda!
> 
> Kneeling during the National Anthem and disrespecting the US Flag is America hating BS...plain and simple.


I think Frank said it best.

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Just one of me.
> What’s actually good about the Trump era is that he forced America to its bottom in almost every area.
> He has exposed the racists and the people who wake up scared and angry about a changing America, so those of us who believe in the changing America can see the darkness and overcome it, as we will.
> So calling out the scared and angry people who cover up their fears with guns and macho posturing is actually our duty. They might be in the closet, they might have suffered somehow, but they need to be told their behavior doesn’t work.
> After we do that, we tell the Mets and Outlaws and the other poor souls that there is a place for all of us in this country.


What brought us Trump?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They all started mumbling when they saw a black family walk into the "White" House. Now with trump they feel emboldened to stand up loud and proud of their ignorance and hate.


Black?


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 3, 2020)

met61 said:


> Yep, a pussy. Shocked!


These libs are an angry bunch, especially with Biden a sure thing this November.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 3, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> These libs are an angry bunch, especially with Biden a sure thing this November.


Seemed as good a time as any...plus as funny as this might be to some, it’s a real concern for many people come November.


----------



## messy (Jul 3, 2020)

Justafan said:


> Exactly what I thought, you just can’t get yourself to admit it.  Jose, where are you, all you could muster was a thumbs up?  And new tough guy, Met61, why didn’t you answer the question macho man? Typical tough talking cowards.
> 
> You see I can admit that when Biden and Pelosi criticized the travel ban from China, they were wrong and Trump was right.  Period, no discussion, no wiggle room, no ...... “ultimately we the people” pussy bull shit.  Fucking weak!!


The Trump fans are too stupid to even recognize his one really good big idea.
He talked about massive infrastructure programs while he was running and right when he became president.
But then his other boss, McConnell (I mean other than Vlad) told him he couldn’t, so he shut up about that real quick and never mentioned it again.
He knew that all he has to do is stoke the culture wars to keep his dumb base and keep juicing the market and that lasted until Covid.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 3, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> They all started mumbling when they saw a black family walk into the "White" House. Now with trump they feel emboldened to stand up loud and proud of their ignorance and hate.


Who hates blacks more than blacks?  NOBODY.









						Chicago: 75% of Murdered Are Black, 71% of Murderers Are Black
					

The numbers are horrifying




					www.intellectualtakeout.org


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 3, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> What brought us Trump?


Lies, hate, fear and a good amount of old fashion carnival barker appeal chants.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 3, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> Who hates blacks more than blacks?  NOBODY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Besides you?


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Lies, hate, fear and a good amount of old fashion carnival barker appeal chants.


Don’t forget Russia.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> Seemed as good a time as any...plus as funny as this might be to some, it’s a real concern for many people come November.
> 
> View attachment 8034


Just wait and see, if Biden wins the same people singing his praises will have him declared incompetent and the radical VP will take over.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Lies, hate, fear and a good amount of old fashion carnival barker appeal chants.


Yes, let me paraphrase for you,
Obama.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 4, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Just wait and see, if Biden wins the same people singing his praises will have him declared incompetent and the radical VP will take over.


"Radical"? You have been fed and believe a load of bullshit. trump is more upset about crowd size and confederate statues than in American lives and you guys think that's somehow normal? LOL! The shit show ends in November and you can all go back to muttering under your breath about all the things and people you hate and how that has put you at such a disadvantage. You people are weak minded.

Think! It's the patriotic thing to do!



Have a safe and happy Fourth of July! Stay home, if you don't like it now is a good time to fix it up!


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> "Radical"? You have been fed and believe a load of bullshit. trump is more upset about crowd size and confederate statues than in American lives and you guys think that's somehow normal? LOL! The shit show ends in November and you can all go back to muttering under your breath about all the things and people you hate and how that has put you at such a disadvantage. You people are weak minded.
> 
> Think! It's the patriotic thing to do!
> 
> ...


Kiss my ass.
Pinko.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Kiss my ass.
> Pinko.


Ricky is an angry member of a couple of minority groups. 
May help him to relate to people.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Besides you?


Nah, I hate hood rats.  Looks to me like blacks don't discriminate... they just hate each other.

Too bad their lives don't matter to each other, right PU?


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> Ricky is an angry member of a couple of minority groups.
> May help him to relate to people.


He believes what trump tells him . . . that and his Twitter master. Paranoia and ignorance aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Just wait and see, if Biden wins the same people singing his praises will have him declared incompetent and the radical VP will take over.


A buddy of mine sent this and we listened to it on our drive home today. These are examples of why he has been “sheltering” and likely will limit and have huge restrictions on debates. Cognitive ability is a big deal. People can hate Trump all they want, but in all seriousness, Biden is not up to the job. He will be nothing more than a puppet/figurehead if he wins. Regardless of the agenda or politics of either side, taking that off the table, which Man really has the better skills/ability to execute/lead/deliver?

I agree 100% on the VP issue if Biden wins.  Whoever Biden picks has a great shot at the Oval Office.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> A buddy of mine sent this and we listened to it on our drive home today. These are examples of why he has been “sheltering” and likely will limit and have huge restrictions on debates. Cognitive ability is a big deal. People can hate Trump all they want, but in all seriousness, Biden is not up to the job. He will be nothing more than a puppet/figurehead if he wins. Regardless of the agenda or politics of either side, taking that off the table, which Man really has the better skills/ability to execute/lead/deliver?
> 
> I agree 100% on the VP issue if Biden wins.  Whoever Biden picks has a great shot at the Oval Office.


Not gonna work, but keep trying!


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 4, 2020)

Let's not forget about 43


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> Not gonna work, but keep trying!


That one is funny too.  It all cracks me up.  You really think Biden is more capable of a leader all politics and agenda aside?  I’m curious.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> Let's not forget about 43


He was the best...was it the SNL skit where the made fun and he said “strategery”...


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> That one is funny too.  It all cracks me up.  You really think Biden is more capable of a leader all politics and agenda aside?  I’m curious.


There is no question that Biden is a far more capable leader than Trump, while admittedly the bar is very low. Trump has shown himself to be incapable of leading.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> He was the best...was it the SNL skit where the made fun and he said “strategery”...


It's amazing to look back and wonder how he beat Gore ((chad)) and won twice.  Then t beat HC.  I'm shocked by all this.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> There is no question that Biden is a far more capable leader than Trump, while admittedly the bar is very low. Trump has shown himself to be incapable of leading.


Haha...not a chance in the real world you would hire Biden over Trump to execute a Business Plan, Build a Brand, Grow a Business...Good luck with that.  That’s really funny.  I can understand people picking him over T based on Politics, but based on Talent...not a chance.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> There is no question that Biden is a far more capable leader than Trump, while admittedly the bar is very low. Trump has shown himself to be incapable of leading.


You're a parody wrapped inside a hypocrisy.
 A half baked philosophical taco in the hungry hands of an imbicile.

Its an image that sticks.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> You're a parody wrapped inside a hypocrisy.
> A half baked philosophical taco in the hungry hands of an imbicile.
> 
> Its an image that sticks.


Do you mean “imbecile” and “it’s?”
And I am a taco, right? Who is the imbecile?
Have you always had these pretensions of intellect to compensate for being a tradesman? That’s totally unnecessary, you know.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> Haha...not a chance in the real world you would hire Biden over Trump to execute a Business Plan, Build a Brand, Grow a Business...Good luck with that.  That’s really funny.  I can understand people picking him over T based on Politics, but based on Talent...not a chance.


Huh?
Trump has failed miserably. He has chosen to represent about 40% of all Americans.
As a businessman, he was out of business and 4x bankrupt until the TV show, dummy.
He’s a showman, not a leader.
Ultimately, he was a brief but terrifying sideshow if hostility and racism and moral regression.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 4, 2020)

Messy, your're nothing but trouble.  I found you and your're side kick   Happy 4th of July.  BTW, the waves were epic today!!!


----------



## Imtired (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> A buddy of mine sent this and we listened to it on our drive home today. These are examples of why he has been “sheltering” and likely will limit and have huge restrictions on debates. Cognitive ability is a big deal. People can hate Trump all they want, but in all seriousness, Biden is not up to the job. He will be nothing more than a puppet/figurehead if he wins. Regardless of the agenda or politics of either side, taking that off the table, which Man really has the better skills/ability to execute/lead/deliver?
> 
> I agree 100% on the VP issue if Biden wins.  Whoever Biden picks has a great shot at the Oval Office.


Yeah, this guy so much better.  Who knew Vietnam was such a sweeping victory?  And we accomplished that with Swiffers no less!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279555471750254592


----------



## espola (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> Huh?
> Trump has failed miserably. He has chosen to represent about 40% of all Americans.
> As a businessman, he was out of business and 4x bankrupt until the TV show, dummy.
> He’s a showman, not a leader.
> Ultimately, he was a brief but terrifying sideshow if hostility and racism and moral regression.


When t started his campaign, I thought it was just a stunt to boost the ratings of his reality shows.  He and I both underestimated the appeal of an egotistical psycho to the voters.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> Huh?
> Trump has failed miserably. He has chosen to represent about 40% of all Americans.
> As a businessman, he was out of business and 4x bankrupt until the TV show, dummy.
> He’s a showman, not a leader.
> Ultimately, he was a brief but terrifying sideshow if hostility and racism and moral regression.


“Dummy”...haha...you have obviously have never built or grown or run a business of any substance...You are right, he is a Showman.  You need Showman/Salespeople to build a business...without sales you have no business, no ops, no hr, no labor, no business...You have to sell and market the product/service.  Dude is WAY more successful than you or I and his partner is probably way hotter as well...all these career politicians with no ability to execute...40 years in office and what exactly can he hang his hat on as his key accomplishments?

C’mom Milton...stay in your cube and play with your stapler.  “Dummy”...haha...your funny.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

Imtired said:


> Yeah, this guy so much better.  Who knew Vietnam was such a sweeping victory?  And we accomplished that with Swiffers no less!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279555471750254592


I would wager T is way better cognitively...if Biden would come out and play instead of hiding in his bunker we could all find out pretty quickly.  Happy to put a friendly wager on it if you are interested.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> “Dummy”...haha...you have obviously have never built or grown or run a business of any substance...You are right, he is a Showman.  You need Showman/Salespeople to build a business...without sales you have no business, no ops, no hr, no labor, no business...You have to sell and market the product/service.  Dude is WAY more successful than you or I and his partner is probably way hotter as well...all these career politicians with no ability to execute...40 years in office and what exactly can he hang his hat on as his key accomplishments?
> 
> C’mom Milton...stay in your cube and play with your stapler.  “Dummy”...haha...your funny.
> 
> View attachment 8043


The small business I have is actually extremely successful. I am the sole owner. 
My wife is hotter than his...she looks like a man.
As I said, Trump overleveraged himself and failed miserably. You know he would have done much better if he took that huge fund his dad gave him and opened a nice, diverse portfolio.
Instead, he went through a bunch of bankruptcies and left innumerable creditors out to dry. 
Mark Burnett saved him.
He’s done nothing as President and in time of crisis, he folded his tent. Shameful.
President Biden has devoted his life to public service for 40 years, he connects with people and his policies are equal justice, fair taxation, environmental protection and economic growth for all. Pretty basic stuff. Get used to it.


----------



## nononono (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Lies, hate, fear and a good amount of old fashion carnival barker appeal chants.


*NO.....!! VILE FILTHY CRIMINAL DEMOCRATS BROUGHT ABOUT TRUMP, HE EVEN *
*SWITCHED PARTIES TO RUN AGAINST THEIR CRIMINALITY....!!!*

*DEMOCRATS = CRIMINALS*


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> That one is funny too.  It all cracks me up.  You really think Biden is more capable of a leader all politics and agenda aside?  I’m curious.


Do you think trump has a plan? He watches TV all day and reacts off that . . . of course he also listens to Stephen Miller, that is obvious.


----------



## nononono (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> Besides you?


*Something is glaringly obvious....that is how much you hate " Your " skin pigment...!*


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 4, 2020)

I was looking back at the Gallup poll from April 2020. The Gallup polling found that* 31%* of Americans identified as *Democrats*, *30%* identified as *Republican*, and *36% as Independent*. 15 years ago I was gun ho Republican. My buddy Colin was Democrat. Both of his parents are lawyers and are Dems to the death. Today, we both identify as Independent. He is 100% voting for t. So why do you, Mr No, say "Yes, 31% of the country are criminals?" Dude, that is a big problem and you will always sound one sided when righting like that. Maybe change it to, "Some Democrats are Criminals" and I might take you more serious brah!!!!


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> The small business I have is actually extremely successful. I am the sole owner.
> My wife is hotter than his...she looks like a man.
> As I said, Trump overleveraged himself and failed miserably. You know he would have done much better if he took that huge fund his dad gave him and opened a nice, diverse portfolio.
> Instead, he went through a bunch of bankruptcies and left innumerable creditors out to dry.
> ...


I didn’t know the current First Lady was compared to a man, I thought that was the previous First Lady...I missed that day in class.

Good grief Milty...As a consultant/contractor/Single Member LLC (Business Owner....haha)...do you get that the tax changes that have been rolled out for real businesses are driving the economy...less tax is more money for businesses to reinvest - job creation, new product development, investment in automation, expansion, etc. that allows these businesses to grow both top line sales and EBITDA, which for public companies raises their stock price....etc., etc.  

The economy is the heartbeat of the country...poor economy...poor country...poor health.   These tax cuts the government gives to businesses actually creates increased tax revenues in other areas - payroll taxes, SSN, SUI, and  Medicare as well as Corporate Taxes on the incremental lift in profits.  There are many positive by-products of the cut in the corp tax rates.  That was a really good thing done by the T Administration.  Just don’t ask AOC...she has some opinions on the economy, tax, value of labor...she should just go back to bartending.

Fair taxation...what is fair Milty?  Are you not receiving enough government cheese?  Opportunity...there is equal opportunity out there for everyone...don’t hate on the people taking advantage of an opportunity and running with it.  Would you be happier if we were closer to a Socialist Regime.  We will get there if some people get their way.

Gotta go...getting ready to light some fireworks with the family...shhhh!!!!  Don’t tell the Gov.

Happy 4th Everyone...Hope Everyone has a great day with Family and Friends.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> My wife is hotter than his...she looks like a man.


You might want to clarify.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> You might want to clarify.


Melania looks like a man.


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I didn’t know the current First Lady was compared to a man, I thought that was the previous First Lady...I missed that day in class.
> 
> Good grief Milty...As a consultant/contractor/Single Member LLC (Business Owner....haha)...do you get that the tax changes that have been rolled out for real businesses are driving the economy...less tax is more money for businesses to reinvest - job creation, new product development, investment in automation, expansion, etc. that allows these businesses to grow both top line sales and EBITDA, which for public companies raises their stock price....etc., etc.
> 
> ...


You don’t seem to understand how it works.
If you have a small business, say fewer than 20 employees or so, as I do, and it’s an LLC or an S Corp as you describe, the “pass-thru” nature of the entity means you pay out all the money at year end, to avoid double taxation. An owner such as myself is taxed at the same rate under Trump as I was under Obama, as you should know. Individual rates have not reduced.
So small businesses have had zero tax benefits under Trump. Insurance costs, payroll taxes, nothing reduced under Trump.
Big business, of course, and businesses with shareholders, is doing better as a result of lower corporate taxes.
But not small business.
Shareholders are treated the same way as they were under Obama because capital gains tax rates have not changed under Trump (we all pay fewer taxes on a dollar we make from investment than a dollar we earn from labor, of course). But stock market growth is actually considerably slower than it was under Obama.
Biden will be a much better president for national unity and the economy. We usually do better under Democrats.
As for me, I’m a consistent 7-figure earner for many years now and that hasn’t changed under Trump or Obama.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I would wager T is way better cognitively...if Biden would come out and play instead of hiding in his bunker we could all find out pretty quickly.  Happy to put a friendly wager on it if you are interested.


trump is spreading the virus, the virus of hate and division. Biden is doing the right thing, he will be an adequate president and will start to clean up the mess. Our soldiers will be proud again.


----------



## Imtired (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I would wager T is way better cognitively...if Biden would come out and play instead of hiding in his bunker we could all find out pretty quickly.  Happy to put a friendly wager on it if you are interested.


You mean like the recent press conference Biden held?  LOL, Biden is having too much fun watching Trump implode.  We’ll see how they do against each other in the debates.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> Melania looks like a man.


Melania is hot AF.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 4, 2020)




----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

messy said:


> You don’t seem to understand how it works.
> If you have a small business, say fewer than 20 employees or so, as I do, and it’s an LLC or an S Corp as you describe, the “pass-thru” nature of the entity means you pay out all the money at year end, to avoid double taxation. An owner such as myself is taxed at the same rate under Trump as I was under Obama, as you should know. Individual rates have not reduced.
> So small businesses have had zero tax benefits under Trump. Insurance costs, payroll taxes, nothing reduced under Trump.
> Big business, of course, and businesses with shareholders, is doing better as a result of lower corporate taxes.
> ...


7 figures like $12,345.68...I’m sure you do very well. Just jokes...Milty...I am pretty familiar with how it works for LLC’s and the different taxation options as well as the implications on S and C Corps...I have two LLC Businesses, one since 2008, and an S Corp we moved to a C Corp In 2018. If you are not paying less in corp tax after the implementation of the changes you should really meet with your accountant and possibly a tax attorney regarding your entity structure, and other benefits and strategies available to you.  You should be doing better, not the same or worse.

In a addition, your personal tax rate has been reduced as well under the tax changes by a couple points.

Sorry...small business do get many benefits under the tax plan.  Not just public, large companies.  Small businesses can be up to $30mm + and 1,500 employees and below.  These same small businesses are still dealing with Obamacare and those around the 50 employee mark...the healthcare costs and reporting requirements pushed to them are significant..These are the same small businesses that benefited from the PPP that was part of the CARES Act to keep people working instead of rioting, looting, and pulling down statues.  However, some banks did some small businesses dirty.  Real dirty.

Not talking about Capital Gains, but yes you are right about the tax rates there, provided you keep them for a year.


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## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

Imtired said:


> You mean like the recent press conference Biden held?  LOL, Biden is having too much fun watching Trump implode.  We’ll see how they do against each other in the debates.


I would be happy to come up with some objective criteria for a wager...Biden has been fumbling speech, and facts for over 40 years.  He may win the election, but it will not be because he is the better choice...it will be based on party lines, not who is the better candidate.  I’ve asked a couple times, what JB done in his 40 years?  What are his major accomplishments?  Other than Plagiarizing Speeches, inflating his academic prowess, and sniffing hair...


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## Woobie06 (Jul 4, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> trump is spreading the virus, the virus of hate and division. Biden is doing the right thing, he will be an adequate president and will start to clean up the mess. Our soldiers will be proud again.


The far left, some left leaning organizations, some mainstream media, and others are doing a bang up job spreading hate.  Look at the fearless leader of our state....all these restrictions on businesses, and citizen movement, etc....but Protests are OK...that’s pandering to your base if I ever heard it.

Can somebody please explain why protests are ok, but I can’t eat inside or go to the beach?  Do protesters have some super secret special immunity to Covid?  Why don’t protestors have to follow the same rules as others?  Anybody?

Left leaders letting people damage and vandalize their cities is allowing chaos and hate to fester...these things are much, much different than peaceful protests.  What I heard Trump say last night is that he will hold Agitators, Anarchists, Vandals, and Rioters accountable.  That’s not spreading hate, that is an attempt to control it.  That’s being responsible and working to take control of a dangerous situation some of the mayors and governors won’t do because they care less about the people they govern and more about being re-elected.  

Would you let your child mess up their room if they were having a temper tantrum...sure, maybe let them get it out of their system....Would you let your child destroy your home, or would you put a stop to it?


----------



## messy (Jul 4, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> The far left, some left leaning organizations, some mainstream media, and others are doing a bang up job spreading hate.  Look at the fearless leader of our state....all these restrictions on businesses, and citizen movement, etc....but Protests are OK...that’s pandering to your base if I ever heard it.
> 
> Can somebody please explain why protests are ok, but I can’t eat inside or go to the beach?  Do protesters have some super secret special immunity to Covid?  Why don’t protestors have to follow the same rules as others?  Anybody?
> 
> ...


Trump gave a 4th of July speech full of fear-mongering about his political opponents wanting to “destroy America.” He’s spreading fear and hate...you’re buying in.
The good news for the opposition is that Trump is ok with his base and he has given up on everyone else, so he loses. The broader America is more comfortable with an establishment liberal like Joe Biden. America knows him, they know the type of people who will fool out his administration...Obama was the model...and they prefer that to a few billionaires, xenophobes and a revolving door of chiefs of staff...not to mention an AG who carries the rule of Trump instead of the rule of law.
We are lucky that President Trump failed to establish the dictatorship he sought...and now he’s decided to go ugly with on his way out.
You dont seem entirely unreasonable, you see what’s ahead and you know we will be ok. We will also be ok if Trump stays in, because the Republic is surprisingly resilient. Other than a recession, we survived two terms of that idiot W.


----------



## Woobie06 (Jul 5, 2020)

Haha, and T’s opposition say he is “destroying” America...kinda the same message...At the end of the day none of this is a controllable.  Can’t control it, so control the things you can.  I heard a very different speech than you did.   His speech was not hate filled or divisive.  Nothing to buy into.  I’m for peaceful protests, exercising your rights, I do believe black lives matter as do all lives, and I believe there is reform needed in law enforcement along with many other areas in this country as well as believing in a slew of other things.

I’m not for the organization Black Lives Matter,  ANTIFA, White Supremacy Organizations, or for people destroying and vandalizing their city, destroying property, assaults on people, or the leaders allowing this to happen among many other things.

How exactly is holding people accountable for destroying property, vandalism, assault, etc. hate filled and divisive?  Would you let somebody destroy your home or property?

So basically you are saying, let’s go with Puppet Joe because he won’t really be doing anything and the Billionaires running the left are better than the ones running the right...I just do not understand how people believe rioting, looting, vandalizing, and destroying property is ok, and akin to peaceful protests.  Much of what the left is pushing now is extremely divisive.  Many leave no room for a dissenting opinion...the hypocrisy is comical...people protesting the things they do not want to allow themselves...this BS cancel culture.  Those leaders calling to defund the police, who are utilizing them 24/7 for protection, or Defund the Police Protests who are requesting a police presence at the event for safety.  Does any of this strike you as odd?

I do agree 100% that the world will not stop spinning regardless of who wins and life will continue.  And yes, in the short-term things will be fine.  That’s probably one of the most reasonable thing I’ve heard you say.  That said, the next few months will be very entertaining.


----------



## messy (Jul 5, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> Haha, and T’s opposition say he is “destroying” America...kinda the same message...At the end of the day none of this is a controllable.  Can’t control it, so control the things you can.  I heard a very different speech than you did.   His speech was not hate filled or divisive.  Nothing to buy into.  I’m for peaceful protests, exercising your rights, I do believe black lives matter as do all lives, and I believe there is reform needed in law enforcement along with many other areas in this country as well as believing in a slew of other things.
> 
> I’m not for the organization Black Lives Matter,  ANTIFA, White Supremacy Organizations, or for people destroying and vandalizing their city, destroying property, assaults on people, or the leaders allowing this to happen among many other things.
> 
> ...


The narcissism, hostility, family members running the country, mishandling of this pandemic, using the phrase “fine people on both sides,” “rapists,” I have a million reasons not to vote for Trump.
His rhetoric was so dangerous that back in ‘16 (way before Bill Maher started in) I turned to my wife and said “this guy wants to be a dictator...if he wins, our republic may hinge on which side the military takes.” He was asking people to hit protesters at his campaign rallies and telling them he’d pay their legal fees. This is not America.He’s such a bad guy, last night he referred to the third quarter economic news, which will come out “right before the election, which will be good for us.” Who does that?
Biden is a tried and true Dem. Obama was boring and maybe Biden will be too. Safe, kept alliances in place and kept our economy safe.
I’m glad the nation is waking up. It took long enough! Trump doesn’t really have a chance.


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 5, 2020)

I get triggered with hypocrisy and double speakers.  President Obama was in office and Kap seemed like a different guy.  Maybe the white people he lived with tried to white wash him and then someone else taught him the truth?  Remember, truth lies somewhere in da middle.  This is guy who 9 years ago was so happy.  Today, he does not feel blessed.  My black friends all feel blessed & humanized and feel they have as much of a chance today to be what they want as any other citizen, white, latino, asian or black.  I'm shocked folks are buying into this narrative. 

Kap in 2011-  "Happy 4th of July everyone I hope everyone has a *blessed day.*"

Kap 2020- "Black ppl have been dehumanized, brutalized, criminalized + terrorized by America for centuries, & are expected to join your commemoration of “independence”, while you enslaved our ancestors. We reject your *celebration of white supremacy* & look forward to liberation for all."

I asked my son if he identifies as white ever.  He said, "no dad, I don;t look white."


----------



## messy (Jul 5, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> Haha, and T’s opposition say he is “destroying” America...kinda the same message...At the end of the day none of this is a controllable.  Can’t control it, so control the things you can.  I heard a very different speech than you did.   His speech was not hate filled or divisive.  Nothing to buy into.  I’m for peaceful protests, exercising your rights, I do believe black lives matter as do all lives, and I believe there is reform needed in law enforcement along with many other areas in this country as well as believing in a slew of other things.
> 
> I’m not for the organization Black Lives Matter,  ANTIFA, White Supremacy Organizations, or for people destroying and vandalizing their city, destroying property, assaults on people, or the leaders allowing this to happen among many other things.
> 
> ...


Trump has one chance. His white supremacy campaign is a loser. But he occasionally refers to cities and how if they don’t get their act together, he will come in and clean it up.
Chicago is the city all the racists point to every day.
If the federal government under Trump were to declare some kind of emergency and go into Chicago with resources, both potential force and community interaction, and reduce the shootings there, he would have done a service to the country and he would be re-elected. 
As of now, he’s got nothing but his hard-core 40%.


----------



## espola (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Trump has one chance. His white supremacy campaign is a loser. But he occasionally refers to cities and how if they don’t get their act together, he will come in and clean it up.
> Chicago is the city all the racists point to every day.
> If the federal government under Trump were to declare some kind of emergency and go into Chicago with resources, both potential force and community interaction, and reduce the shootings there, he would have done a service to the country and he would be re-elected.
> As of now, he’s got nothing but his hard-core 40%.


20%


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## Ellejustus (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Trump has one chance. His white supremacy campaign is a loser. But he occasionally refers to cities and how if they don’t get their act together, he will come in and clean it up.
> Chicago is the city all the racists point to every day.
> If the federal government under Trump were to declare some kind of emergency and go into Chicago with resources, both potential force and community interaction, and reduce the shootings there, he would have done a service to the country and he would be re-elected.
> As of now, he’s got nothing but his* hard-core 40%.*


I think the hard core t's is more like 15% and same with the hard-core lefties.  Then you have 15% sheep-pies on both sides and then the 36% Independent Thinkers ((IT)).  IT folks get smart after life smacks them in the face and when they turn 50 they start to see the world differently and not so black and white as some still do.......


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Do you mean “imbecile” and “it’s?”
> And I am a taco, right? Who is the imbecile?
> Have you always had these pretensions of intellect to compensate for being a tradesman? That’s totally unnecessary, you know.


Maybe .


----------



## messy (Jul 5, 2020)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Maybe .


I say that because only an asshole would judge you for being a tradesman, so why worry about it?
I don’t judge you at all because of that...I judge you for being an asshole.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> I say that because only an asshole would judge you for being a tradesman, so why worry about it?
> I don’t judge you at all because of that...I judge you for being an asshole.


I love you too.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Trump has one chance. His white supremacy campaign is a loser. But he occasionally refers to cities and how if they don’t get their act together, he will come in and clean it up.
> Chicago is the city all the racists point to every day.
> If the federal government under Trump were to declare some kind of emergency and go into Chicago with resources, both potential force and community interaction, and reduce the shootings there, he would have done a service to the country and he would be re-elected.
> As of now, he’s got nothing but his hard-core 40%.


According to Fox Chicago ain't even in the top 5.









						America's top 5 deadliest cities
					

America suffered an estimated 16,214 murders in 2018, according to the most recent FBI crime statistics. So what are the top five deadliest major cities in the U.S.?




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## nononono (Jul 5, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> According to Fox Chicago ain't even in the top 5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Your " White Guilt " is on high order today.....tone it down.*


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

timmyh said:


> I hope you talk like this in public someday when I'm around and close enough to hear it. Doesn't seem like you'd listen if anybody tried to reason with you and set you straight, but it's been a while since I've had a proper chance to whip somebody's ass.
> 
> You are an embarrassment to the country I love.  I hope you get banned from this place.


I guess THIS one is a little embarrassing for you, eh dipshit?









						Dawit Kelete Accused of Running Over Seattle Protesters
					

Dawit Kelete is a Seattle man accused of running over two protesters, killing Summer Taylor, in Washington state.




					heavy.com


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> According to Fox Chicago ain't even in the top 5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All 5 with extremely high black populations.  What a shock.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

MacDre said:


> I think they call them SHEEPLE.


What do you think about this one, Dre?  Single parent household?  Systemic oppression?  Dropping drugs into the ghetto?  Segregation? 









						Dawit Kelete Accused of Running Over Seattle Protesters
					

Dawit Kelete is a Seattle man accused of running over two protesters, killing Summer Taylor, in Washington state.




					heavy.com


----------



## Ellejustus (Jul 5, 2020)

I personally hate seeing anyone die and it makes me feel sick to my stomach because I know my day of death is coming, I just dont know how yet.  RIP young lady who died.  I worked at a gas station in college and this guy was riding a moped with no helmet or shoes on.  A car was pulling into my station and didnt see the moped rider.  He smacked right into a big catty and I basically saw him die in front of me.  Eyes rolled back, blood coming out of his ears and mouth.  One dude like Outlaw rolls up behind me and told the guy to "get up and walk it off."  I looked at him like, "wtf." Then he tells the guy to wear a hemet and shoes next time.  I think he was numb.  I talked with him afterwards and he was like, "serves him right.  Dumb ass wasn;t wearing a helmet,"


----------



## messy (Jul 5, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I personally hate seeing anyone die and it makes me feel sick to my stomach because I know my day of death is coming, I just dont know how yet.  RIP young lady who died.  I worked at a gas station in college and this guy was riding a moped with no helmet or shoes on.  A car was pulling into my station and didnt see the moped rider.  He smacked right into a big catty and I basically saw him die in front of me.  Eyes rolled back, blood coming out of his ears and mouth.  One dude like Outlaw rolls up behind me and told the guy to "get up and walk it off."  I looked at him like, "wtf." Then he tells the guy to wear a hemet and shoes next time.  I think he was numb.  I talked with him afterwards and he was like, "serves him right.  Dumb ass wasn;t wearing a helmet,"


Sounds like Outlaw, all right. We can’t become a country where those people have the loudest voices.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Sounds like Outlaw, all right. We can’t become a country where those people have the loudest voices.


Which people?  The black guy that killed a white woman supporting his "Plight" of blacks being unfairly profiled for things like vehicular manslaughter?


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

Ellejustus said:


> I personally hate seeing anyone die and it makes me feel sick to my stomach because I know my day of death is coming, I just dont know how yet.  RIP young lady who died.  I worked at a gas station in college and this guy was riding a moped with no helmet or shoes on.  A car was pulling into my station and didnt see the moped rider.  He smacked right into a big catty and I basically saw him die in front of me.  Eyes rolled back, blood coming out of his ears and mouth.  One dude like Outlaw rolls up behind me and told the guy to "get up and walk it off."  I looked at him like, "wtf." Then he tells the guy to wear a hemet and shoes next time.  I think he was numb.  I talked with him afterwards and he was like, "serves him right.  Dumb ass wasn;t wearing a helmet,"


Too bad she was blocking that freeway, Spicoli.  BLACK DRIVES MATTER!


----------



## MacDre (Jul 5, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> What do you think about this one, Dre?  Single parent household?  Systemic oppression?  Dropping drugs into the ghetto?  Segregation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing @dad4 a clear example of a boot licking uncle tom.


----------



## Hüsker Dü (Jul 5, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> I guess THIS one is a little embarrassing for you, eh dipshit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are obsessed with skin color and how you believe it dictates a persons mindset or actions, it doesn't.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Thanks for providing @dad4 a clear example of a boot licking uncle tom.


What are you babbling about?  Looks like one of your brothers decided white lives don't matter... even though they were supporting your bullshit movement.  Speaking of, I had a wonderful Black Lives Movement after coffee this morning, Dre.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

Hüsker Dü said:


> You are obsessed with skin color and how you believe it dictates a persons mindset or actions, it doesn't.


Yeah... and so are you when it supports your narrative.  The other 362 days per year, you run from the truth.


----------



## MacDre (Jul 5, 2020)

The Outlaw said:


> What are you babbling about?  Looks like one of your brothers decided white lives don't matter... even though they were supporting your bullshit movement.  Speaking of, I had a wonderful Black Lives Movement after coffee this morning, Dre.


Funny.  I was stressing a little because I was concerned women’s soccer might not survive COVID.  Are you aware Groupo Caliente recently sold Querétaro.  It appears Club Tijuana is going all in with my kid.  Franky Oviedo just called her.  I guess he’s a midfielder and he’s going to take my kid and the program to the next level.  I’m excited and this is where my focus is.

Outlaw, I make shit happen.  My fight has been to bring attention to police brutality & white supremacy.  And it looks like I have accomplished that goal and it’s time to move on.  But before I move on, I’d like to thank all the “tools” like you for putting how you feel out there.  The scariest shit to me was after Obama was elected and guys like @dad4 started talking all that post racial bullshit.  I sincerely thank you for tabling your issues.  I think you’re patriot because if it wasn’t for tools like you Black Lives Wouldn’t Matter and we’d still be talking that post racial bullshit.

I sincerely think you for your contributions to the movement.  And I’m sure you’ll keep up the good work.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 5, 2020)

messy said:


> Sounds like Outlaw, all right. We can’t become a country where those people have the loudest voices.


Yes, like the looting protesters.


----------



## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Funny.  I was stressing a little because I was concerned women’s soccer might not survive COVID.  Are you aware Groupo Caliente recently sold Querétaro.  It appears Club Tijuana is going all in with my kid.  Franky Oviedo just called her.  I guess he’s a midfielder and he’s going to take my kid and the program to the next level.  I’m excited and this is where my focus is.
> 
> Outlaw, I make shit happen.  My fight has been to bring attention to police brutality & white supremacy.  And it looks like I have accomplished that goal and it’s time to move on.  But before I move on, I’d like to thank all the “tools” like you for putting how you feel out there.  The scariest shit to me was after Obama was elected and guys like @dad4 started talking all that post racial bullshit.  I sincerely thank you for tabling your issues.  I think you’re patriot because if it wasn’t for tools like you Black Lives Wouldn’t Matter and we’d still be talking that post racial bullshit.
> 
> I sincerely think you for your contributions to the movement.  And I’m sure you’ll keep up the good work.


Police brutality doesn't exist.  Only black criminals that refuse to comply.  I don't see any other race complaining.
White supremacy doesn't exist.  Only black people that can't accept others having more success.  I don't see any other race using the term.
You didn't accomplish anything... including giving me a single name of an innocent black man killed by police.  So you accomplished nothing, Dre.
Furthermore, you refuse to acknowledge a black man just murdered a white woman protesting in support of black people.  Reminds me of that hood rat rapper that was murdered, by another black man, in a parking lot.  2 shootings at his funeral.  Must be a black thing.  ZERO accountability.

Black lives matter to most people... but they matter the LEAST to black people.

Congratulations on your kid... sounds like she's very safe outside of a black community... and many of us have kids playing for former professionals.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 5, 2020)

Woobie06 said:


> I didn’t know the current First Lady was compared to a man, I thought that was the previous First Lady...I missed that day in class.
> 
> Good grief Milty...As a consultant/contractor/Single Member LLC (Business Owner....haha)...do you get that the tax changes that have been rolled out for real businesses are driving the economy...less tax is more money for businesses to reinvest - job creation, new product development, investment in automation, expansion, etc. that allows these businesses to grow both top line sales and EBITDA, which for public companies raises their stock price....etc., etc.
> 
> ...


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## dad4 (Jul 5, 2020)

MacDre said:


> Funny.  I was stressing a little because I was concerned women’s soccer might not survive COVID.  Are you aware Groupo Caliente recently sold Querétaro.  It appears Club Tijuana is going all in with my kid.  Franky Oviedo just called her.  I guess he’s a midfielder and he’s going to take my kid and the program to the next level.  I’m excited and this is where my focus is.
> 
> Outlaw, I make shit happen.  My fight has been to bring attention to police brutality & white supremacy.  And it looks like I have accomplished that goal and it’s time to move on.  But before I move on, I’d like to thank all the “tools” like you for putting how you feel out there.  The scariest shit to me was after Obama was elected and guys like @dad4 started talking all that post racial bullshit.  I sincerely thank you for tabling your issues.  I think you’re patriot because if it wasn’t for tools like you Black Lives Wouldn’t Matter and we’d still be talking that post racial bullshit.
> 
> I sincerely think you for your contributions to the movement.  And I’m sure you’ll keep up the good work.


Most of us are post racial.  It's only tools like you and outlaw that are stuck in 1974.

Congrats to your daughter.  Hope it all works out great for her.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

Sheriff Joe said:


> View attachment 8054


In fairness to Big Mike, you can't really even see her cock in this photo.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jul 5, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Most of us are post racial.  It's only tools like you and outlaw that are stuck in 1974.
> 
> Congrats to your daughter.  Hope it all works out great for her.


What have I said that's inaccurate?


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