# Reality Check



## timbuck (Sep 16, 2016)

This tends to happen on sports related forums.  
People at the sharp end of the spear are the most vocal on message boards like this.
I used to be pretty active in running, cycling, swimming.  I've done a ton of different distance races (5k running all the way up to full ironman distance triathlon.  I was never "fast", but had respectable results for a guy without much genetic help.  Definitely not built for distance).  If you go on to a triathlon forum, you'd think that unless you are near a 9 hour finish for an ironman, then you are a loser and should just stay on the couch.  Or unless you have qualified for the Boston Marathon, you might as well just be a mall walker.
The reality is that 80-90% of people in these events are much, much slower.

Which brings me back to my SoCal Soccer reality check.
There is so much discussion on here about Flight 1, ECNL, DA, D1, ODP, National Team, etc.  That it feels like unless your kid is in one of these categories, then you might as well hang up their cleats and teach them how to weave baskets.
I think it's great that there are so many talented and hard working players around So Cal.  And that there are so many teams for these players to play on.
But there are a lot of us out here who just love to see our kids being active and playing something they seem to love. No matter what flight they are in, where their team is ranked or how many tournaments they win (or even play in).
We tend to forget that there are lots of kids in all of the age groups that get better every year, but will never be invited to a US National Team Camp or ODP player pool.  They may never play Flight 1 (even after DA and ECNL pick the top players and Flight 1 is really more like Flight 2 or 3).   And there might be kids that are "good enough" but for a variety of reasons, they chose to do something less hard core. (Friends, other sports, school, other friends, coach they love, family time, etc)
Another thread is talking about players/parents, teams, coaches already starting to scramble to get their kid positioned for a spot on a DA team/club for next year.  WE ARE 1 WEEK INTO THE FALL SEASON.  Relax.  Your kids just went through the anxiety of  "Age Group" changes.  And you went through the anxiety of whether they would be on the "A" team or not.
For kids that want to play on DA or ECNL teams and that have the talent/drive to do s0 -  They'll find their way onto a team.  The best players are obvious to most people watching.  And if your kid is at the end of the roster on one of these teams, they're probably better off not being on that team.

For the record - My kids are average players.  I currently coach them in the AYSO Extra program.  They are currently happy with the level of play and their teammates.  We're good here until a change is needed.  I also play once or twice a week. And I referee on occasion.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 16, 2016)

Works for AYSO but it doesn't work for Club.
I think you are an intelligent poster and I enjoy your views. That being said there is a big difference between the caliber and the expectations that the coaches and Clubs have of our daughters vs AYSO extra. 
Sorry but you are truly missing the mark in this one. 
You can all "let them play". I prefer to be proactive about where I plunk down 4-7k after all is said and done next year and what coach and family I spend 40+ hrs a week with.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 16, 2016)

Ps 
The same coaches in Club that say "let them play" and"relax" are allowing mid season transfers, recruiting other girls, enertaining parent calls and emails about a new season. Until there is transparency which is unlikely parents should be allowed to do as much of it as they can.
There is a HUGE double standard.


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## timbuck (Sep 16, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Works for AYSO but it doesn't work for Club.
> I think you are an intelligent poster and I enjoy your views. That being said there is a big difference between the caliber and the expectations that the coaches and Clubs have of our daughters vs AYSO extra.
> Sorry but you are truly missing the mark in this one.
> You can all "let them play". I prefer to be proactive about where I plunk down 4-7k after all is said and done next year and what coach and family I spend 40+ hrs a week with.


I think we are sort of agreeing here.
It sounds like your kid might be at the top level.  Be smart with how you evaluate her team and her options.  Sounds like you are.
 But for kids at the Flight 3 or Extra level (maybe even the Flight 2 or low level Flight 1), realize that always chasing the next best thing and "Working the politics" in September might not be needed.
My post was more for the "rest of us."  Those of us who have kids that aren't going to be at that top level.  And for us to relax and not scramble to get your kid to a new club again next year just because she might make their ECNL or DA team in a few years.
Someone mentioned in an earlier post about the lack of loyalty across the board.  Probably nothing we can do to change that.  Coaches leaves clubs. Clubs get rid of coaches.  Parents look for new/better opportunities.  It's too bad really.


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## Striker17 (Sep 16, 2016)

Great post! 
The way I also read it frankly is that the majority of "club players" are probably AYSO. It's just a gaming circuit in my opinion. Club should really be for the very serious players but has devolved into a money making 3-4 team enterprise. This unfortunately gives parents some unrealistic expectations I believe. 
My daughter is on the bubble. I rely on her to be with a good coach and like that there are still lots of players who are better than her that challenge her in so many ways.
We are not at the type of club where relax is an option. I wouldn't have it any other way though as it fits who she is!


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## socalkdg (Sep 16, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Works for AYSO but it doesn't work for Club.
> I think you are an intelligent poster and I enjoy your views. That being said there is a big difference between the caliber and the expectations that the coaches and Clubs have of our daughters vs AYSO extra.
> Sorry but you are truly missing the mark in this one.
> You can all "let them play". I prefer to be proactive about where I plunk down 4-7k after all is said and done next year and what coach and family I spend 40+ hrs a week with.


Many AYSO Extra teams are as good as some Tier 2/Silver level teams, and better than many Tier 3/Bronze teams, so don't just discount what he was saying because he coaches AYSO Extra.  Ayso Core would be a different story, but I'm glad that thousands of boys and girls have a chance to to play in this league.  I know many high caliber players in the Extra program that chose that over club for various reasons, and many Extra teams are ran by great coaches.  Eventually the best of Extra do go to Club, and club teams are fortunate to have Extra feed them girls.


I'm amazed that you spend 40+ hours a week with your club team.   My daughter plays both club and AYSO, has 2-3 games a week, plus likes to kick the ball around on her off time, but doesn't spend more than 15 hours per week.  I've read a lot on these forums and never once seen anyone mention that many hours.   Does anyone know what programs run this type of schedule?


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## Striker17 (Sep 16, 2016)

With where we are 30 plus is accurate if you consider three days a week 2.5 hrs,optional futsal, optional speed etc which everyone does, travel time to Norco etc. During summer we obviously spent AT LEAST forty hours a week with our soccer family due to long tournament days. Soccer really is a full time year long activity depending on the team you decide to be on.
I don't know how that translates to success of any team or athlete though.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 16, 2016)

Son moved to new club: 2 hrs practice, 1 hr training, 2 hrs practice, 90 min skills, 90 min games x 2, warmups ... that's 11 hours ... add maybe a couple more for commuting time. So 13 hours a week. Who are these kids doing 30-40 hours each week?


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## mirage (Sep 16, 2016)

timmy, you need to consider the sampling on the forum.

Vast majority of soccer player parents DO NOT know this forum exist, much less post here.

So you are seeing distorted population of high tier kids parents posting (boasting) what's going on with their kid.

Something must have got under your skin or it was really slow day at the office for you.... Its all for fun and while its VERY serious for some, most of us have not lost our perspective.

Happy Friday!


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## Socal United (Sep 16, 2016)

ESPNANALYST said:


> Ps
> The same coaches in Club that say "let them play" and"relax" are allowing mid season transfers, recruiting other girls, enertaining parent calls and emails about a new season. Until there is transparency which is unlikely parents should be allowed to do as much of it as they can.
> There is a HUGE double standard.


I think you are generalizing quite a bit.  I think there are a lot of coaches, myself included, that use those two phrases quite a bit.  How about looking at it from our side, how annoying it is that it is mid September and we are getting cornered about next year, the team, the coaches, etc.  Still a long way away, how much transparency should we have in that regard?  While I do agree with you, it goes both ways.


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## timbuck (Sep 16, 2016)

mirage said:


> timmy, you need to consider the sampling on the forum.
> 
> Vast majority of soccer player parents DO NOT know this forum exist, much less post here.
> 
> ...


Little slow at the office today. 
But- but like the triathlon forum where it seems that a 6:30 mile and. :55 second 100 yard swim is the "norm", your point is my point. To the lurkers out there that read about the "game of the week" and worry about your kid/their team, shake it off. Live with the rest of us mortals.  (The guys that run an 8:30-12:00 mile and can't swim their way out of a paperbag, but still find a way to swim over 2 miles and finish a marathon with a nice little 112 mile bike ride in between).


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## soloyosh (Sep 16, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Son moved to new club: 2 hrs practice, 1 hr training, 2 hrs practice, 90 min skills, 90 min games x 2, warmups ... that's 11 hours ... add maybe a couple more for commuting time. So 13 hours a week. Who are these kids doing 30-40 hours each week?


What age?


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## socalkdg (Sep 16, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> With where we are 30 plus is accurate if you consider three days a week 2.5 hrs,optional futsal, optional speed etc which everyone does, travel time to Norco etc. During summer we obviously spent AT LEAST forty hours a week with our soccer family due to long tournament days. Soccer really is a full time year long activity depending on the team you decide to be on.
> I don't know how that translates to success of any team or athlete though.


Didn't consider commute time, if I did I'm working 55+ hours a week.  LOL     Even figure 7 days a week 3 hours a day we have only 21 hours a week.   I just saw the 40 and was wondering who was practicing that many hours.   I see now that the kids aren't practicing that much.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Sep 16, 2016)

There was a time when I thought my kid to have a chance at getting a scholarship.  Then I learned about the fact that our kids compete with international students for the few soccer scholarships available.  I'm enjoying club soccer so much more as now I realize that I'm doing it to keep my kids in shape and to stay away from not doing much at home.  As a parent you need to ask yourself is your kid in the top 1% of players in Southern California.     If not, then just relax and enjoy your kids play soccer as they will be going to college soon and be a student with a very small chance at getting a scholarship.


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## timbuck (Sep 16, 2016)

Agree with the above. I want my athletic kid to be an athletic young adult and to enjoy playing sports when she's my age. 
Intramural sports in college were a blast!!!


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## Striker17 (Sep 16, 2016)

For the record just because you want to compete at a high level doesn't mean that you believe scholarship money is available. There are many more benefits to high level competition than scholarships. 
Academics first. We just also happen to love soccer and the life lessons, character lessons and friendships that have resulted.
I never understood the scholarship people. Maybe it's because I have seen so much change from 12-18 so that's banking on a miracle


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## Not_that_Serious (Sep 20, 2016)

lol@40hours. some folks are dramatic. even academy kids in Europe start at 3x a week, 1 game a weekend 6-8hrs a week of playing and ramp up. Some German clubs our kids played against where 4x a week + 1-2 games (short sided) at about 12-15 hours MAX. My kid maxes around 10 even going to keeper practice and private training. some folks are loco


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## younothat (Sep 21, 2016)

The reality is your player makes their own destiny.

No amount  of penciling in your player for this or that will change anything, they have to find their own way.

Nothing beats hard work;  the call ups  list for the YNT camp came out and the director announced  one of the players from my sons team was called up.  That player wasn't even playing in the top flight last year.   but continued to train well, dedicated himself to improving, and his passion and skill are paying off.

Youth soccer has so many catch terms (Elite, Academy, Pre-this or that)  marketing fluff, or parents thinking they need private trainers to give the appearance that things are different but it all comes down to what a player does in the dirt, grass, or turf. They will find their level and that changes over time.

Let the kids become who they will;  pushing, joysticking, or trying to position them really  doesn't  help them in the long run.


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## MakeAPlay (Sep 21, 2016)

younothat said:


> The reality is your player makes their own destiny.
> 
> No amount  of penciling in your player for this or that will change anything, they have to find their own way.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of this.  At the end of the day the player makes their own destiny (just like with life), however, a little parental interference/assistance with coming up with a gameplan goes a long way.  I always asked my player every year before I wrote a check did she still want to play (even after she was committed and even on signing day in February).  That was authorization from her to help steer her in the right direction (we are talking about teenage girls!!).  She had to make the decisions and make the calls and send the emails with parental input) but it was all her.  Now that she is in college she feels like she is where she wants to be and is enjoying her experience because it came from her, however, she still is grateful that she didn't have to figure it out alone.

One of my daughter's former teammates who was an ODP player and was recruited by and offered D1 college scholarships is playing at a JC now, not because of her talent but because her parents didn't help her through the process and she didn't quite get the support that she needed.  There are extremes either way (think Marv Marinovich) but parental support is a key part of most successful athlete's story.


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## bigkick (Sep 21, 2016)

socalkdg said:


> Didn't consider commute time, if I did I'm working 55+ hours a week.  LOL     Even figure 7 days a week 3 hours a day we have only 21 hours a week.   I just saw the 40 and was wondering who was practicing that many hours.   I see now that the kids aren't practicing that much.


He's including the 30 hours lurking on this forum as "soccer related activities" to get the 40 hours a week.


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## Striker17 (Sep 21, 2016)

younothat said:


> The reality is your player makes their own destiny.
> 
> No amount  of penciling in your player for this or that will change anything, they have to find their own way.
> 
> ...


Likewise if the player had the passion to go over and beyond what other parents deem acceptable that is a personal family choice. It's also
I am old friends with a family who since seven believes their son will play professionally. They have dealt with the usual doubters but they remained steadfast. The kid loves and breathes soccer. It's been a pleasure to watch and they in fact are moving to Europe for him to be in an academy for a large club. Never thought I would see it honestly. Talk about walking the walk!!
My point is - in my immediate area there are boys putting in well over 30 hours a week. So scoff all you want but they are here and they are working. It's the family choice.
I don't know why it's everyone's immediate reaction to tear down another person. It's very odd.


bigkick said:


> He's including the 30 hours lurking on this forum as "soccer related activities" to get the 40 hours a week.


Funny With a screen name like big kick you truly have a command of the game. Maybe clear the ball is a better moniker?


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## bigkick (Sep 21, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> Likewise if the player had the passion to go over and beyond what other parents deem acceptable that is a personal family choice. It's also
> I am old friends with a family who since seven believes their son will play professionally. They have dealt with the usual doubters but they remained steadfast. The kid loves and breathes soccer. It's been a pleasure to watch and they in fact are moving to Europe for him to be in an academy for a large club. Never thought I would see it honestly. Talk about walking the walk!!
> My point is - in my immediate area there are boys putting in well over 30 hours a week. So scoff all you want but they are here and they are working. It's the family choice.
> I don't know why it's everyone's immediate reaction to tear down another person. It's very odd.
> ...


It's actually a mockery of the crappy soccer I witness every weekend.  Most of these so called "soccer" teams are nothing but kickball teams.  And too often all I hear is "bigkick" (yes at club games) so it stuck.


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## Sizzle10 (Sep 21, 2016)

timbuck, I had not read this thread until today and find it very insightful and interesting. Thanks for the contribution!  Great feedback from most members responding which help us (specially those of us that are new to the sport) put the sport, related lifestyle or concerns, and the ups and downs in perspective.


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## timbuck (Sep 21, 2016)

I've gone back and forth on whether I should post this or not.  What the heck, here goes.  I'm sure there will be some who have issues with this.  
I hope this doesn't sounds like I'm trying to make a case for Extra vs Club.  But I wanted to add a few of my views.  I know that most club kids are putting in a lot more time than most Extra kids. (Private training, speed clinics, futsal, lots of tournaments, etc).  And above U12, the Extra program is pretty weak compared to club.  And I do think that club players are more intense due to playing time pressure.  I've debated with people on whether youth players should fight for playing time vs a guaranteed minimum amount.  I think it really depends on the individual player.  
My gu12 team will likely make a move out of the Extra program after this season.
Like any activity, a lot of it depends on the coach.  A great coach at a crappy club is good.  A crappy coach at a great club is bad.  A great coach at a great club is obviously the ideal situation.  Not saying I'm a great or a crappy coach.  But I am pretty dedicated.
I coach a Gu12 and Gu10 Extra team.  We have some great players and some amazing families.  Lots of best friends up and down each roster.  I'm not aware of too much "drama" behind the scenes.  I'm sure there is some. But not like I hear from some of our friends who are at various clubs.
I put a ton of time into these girls/families.  I don't want anyone to ever leave because they thought that going to a club team would give their kid more training opportunities.  I check the pulse of families throughout the year and will dial up or dial down based on their feedback.  I don't make a dime off of anything that we do.  Some examples:
1.  We took a 6 week break from formal practice and games this summer.  But we entered a futsal league and played once a week.  Nothing mandatory. I wasn't using it to make players fight for playing time.  If a kid had something going on, there was no pressure to attend.  We had pretty good attendance all summer.  I think many of the kids would rather play futsal year round.  Most of our games were against boys club teams  (It was a coed leauge, but was mostly boys).  The gu10 team brought in a few boys to help out once in a while. They struggled a bit during the Fall and Spring season and I didn't want them getting crushed. The gu12 team is fine playing boys and has won more than they've lost, so they can handle getting beat.
2. This spring, the u12 team didn't play in a gaming circuit.  We wanted parents to not have to worry about a game every single weekend. But we played 3 friendly games per month against club teams.  Some times 2 in a day or 2 in weekend.  And then a free weekend.  We are a mix of 04/05 players.  We played 7 games against 05 teams (flight 2) and 7 games against 04 teams (flight 2).  Most of these games were at our home field, with about a 2 minute drive time.  And none of them were at 8 am.  No cost for fields and only an occasional referee fee.
The Gu12 teams played 65 games from last Fall to this Fall. (Season, tournaments, friendlies.  Not including futsal or pickup games).
3.  We have a week long team camp in August.  9am-noon for 5 days. This was at no additional cost to our players and is run by an outside trainer (I was there most of the time.  I do have a full time job, so that gets in the way once in a while).  After the soccer was over, the team did a fun activity each day (team lunch, pool party, beach party, etc).
4.  The younger team has struggled a bit, so we didn't play any club tournaments. A few of them guest played with other teams.  They seem to have turned a bit of a corner lately and are playing pretty good.  The older team has done Vegas Cup for the past 3 years.  And usually did 3 tournaments per summer. We've gotten crushed a few times and have won a few games.  We only did 1 tournament this summer, for a variety of reasons. 
5.  I mentioned in a prior post that I set up a pick up soccer game for all girls in this age group (club, extra, rec, etc) to come and play.  We had about 30 kids show up from 6 different teams. No cost to anybody.  Just play for fun.  We will do it again at the end of October, but will make it a food drive.  
6.  I've rented an arena soccer facility on Sundays for the past few weeks.  Attendance is optional and we fill in with club friends to get us enough players. Somewhat pick-up style.  Let them play for 10 minutes, give a little advice, get some water and play for 10 more minutes.  The point of this is for the girls to be able to try new things without fear.  No pressure, no scores, no standings.
7. 6 of my 14 players are AYSO referees this season.
8. Majority of them run a few 5k races together per year.  They finish in the top 10% of their age group.  We haven't done any special speed/agility sessions.  
9.  We have keeper training once week for our 3 goalkeepers.  There is no additional cost to the players.  It is run by a great keeper coach (not me).
10.  I've also tried to push them to all try new sports.  A few played basketball this summer.  A few more will try it this winter.  A bunch are about to try volleyball.  We have a softball player, swimmer and tennis player too.
11.  Some have done some private soccer coaching.  I encourage it.  I also give "homework" for them to work on ball skills at home. 
12.  The team will volunteer at a soccer tournament for children with disabilities in October.  They'll ref, provide support, pick up trash, hand out medals.
13.  We have a physical therapist coming to talk to the parents and players next week about injury prevention and recovery.
14.  We practice 2x per week for 90 minutes.  I'll do an occasional extra session once in a while as my work and family commitments allow. 
15.  We kept our roster at 14 players this season to make sure everyone gets lots of playing time.  Fingers crossed for no injuries (we've had a few minor one's the last few weeks).
16. In addition to me, we have a trainer for 1 of our practice sessions each week.  The gu10 team has an assistant coach.  The gu12 team is just me this year.
17.  We have "cool" uniforms too.  Adidas home and away game jerseys.  A special tournament jersey. Adidas game shorts.  Adidas socks.  Two practice jerseys.  1 Adidas ball per player. These are included in our fees.  Backpacks and warm ups are separate for the kids that want them.
18.  What's it cost?  Fall season registration is $135 per player.  There's an additional Extra Program fee of $165 (covers camp, trainer, gk training, ball, upgraded uniforms).  We usually collect an additional $100-$200 per player for team tournaments, futsal, etc.
Sorry for the blabbering.  I'm a pretty big fan of the Extra program for U9-U12 aged kids. But it has issues like anything else.

Also - I hear about coaches having game conflicts.  In the past 2 seasons, there's only been 2 times where I haven't been able to attend games for both teams.  And if something comes up where I can't be at a practice, I always find someone to fill in or we move something around.


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## ESPNANALYST (Sep 21, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I've gone back and forth on whether I should post this or not.  What the heck, here goes.  I'm sure there will be some who have issues with this.
> I hope this doesn't sounds like I'm trying to make a case for Extra vs Club.  But I wanted to add a few of my views.  I know that most club kids are putting in a lot more time than most Extra kids. (Private training, speed clinics, futsal, lots of tournaments, etc).  And above U12, the Extra program is pretty weak compared to club.  And I do think that club players are more intense due to playing time pressure.  I've debated with people on whether youth players should fight for playing time vs a guaranteed minimum amount.  I think it really depends on the individual player.
> My gu12 team will likely make a move out of the Extra program after this season.
> Like any activity, a lot of it depends on the coach.  A great coach at a crappy club is good.  A crappy coach at a great club is bad.  A great coach at a great club is obviously the ideal situation.  Not saying I'm a great or a crappy coach.  But I am pretty dedicated.
> ...


Sir I just want to say thanks. Sounds like you are a great coach and an even better Man. Those are some pretty lucky players and families. Impressive


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## mirage (Sep 22, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I've gone back and forth on whether I should post this or not.  What the heck, here goes.  I'm sure there will be some who have issues with this.....


Wow, what a laundry list of stuff.  Have no issue with it but its worth pointing out couple of things. 

As a former board member for a rec league, there is an inherent cost advantage of running a competitive team under the umbrella of rec league, like AYSO.

1) Cities will provide the field at significantly lower costs and with priority of use to the rec leagues
2) Costs of competitive teams are spread over the entire rec league organization (exception being rec leagues that run their own club arm, then often the club arm has to stand on its own - e.g., Laguna United under LNYSA)

So when you mention what a value it is, and it is, its really not apples-to-apples comparison.  But it is dead-ended as no rec leagues have DA or ECNL path upward.  So as long as its viewed as U12 and under, as you've implied, its just taking advantage of its structure.

The other is having the same parent coach for multiple years.  This is not directed at you timbuck; rather, a general statement about how rec league teams is coached in general and in every sports.

There is a optimal duration for effectiveness of any coach, no matter how great he/she is.  Typically after couple of years, the players have learned just about everything they can from that particular trainer.  While the execution level varies from player to player, the basic concepts and approach has run its course.  It is most important during the development years to match the right kind of coach for right amount of time.  A change in a coach brings different perspective, approach and new techniques (both skills and tactics) than the coach before.  If done correctly, by the time a player reaches U14, should have had 2~4 different coaches, depending on when soccer was taken up.

The other aspect of this point is the parent coach.  There are lots of jokes and horror stories about playing in a team where the coach is one of the dads/moms.  Need not give examples as you all know them but I do make a point to never join a team, if the coach has a child or nephew/nice on the team.  Many clubs do not allow coach-child on the same team to avoid conflict of interest (or at least the appearance of it).

Again, I'm sure your very dedicated and fair coach to all of your players timbuck, so please don't read into this post more than what it is.


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## younothat (Sep 22, 2016)

Dang Timbuck...superman coach of the year.  Well done sir,  you're a good example of somebody giving back and making a positive difference in their community


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## bababooey (Sep 22, 2016)

TB: I knew you were dedicated to soccer, but this is downright amazing. When I coached my two dd's in rec years ago, I thought I was giving a lot of my free time to the cause. Reading what you are doing makes my prior commitment look like a vacation.

I trust the players and parents appreciate what you are doing for them and the community.

Keep up the GREAT WORK!


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## socalkdg (Sep 22, 2016)

My daughter is on a club team that just came from U10 Extra.  Took players from our team, younger players from U11 Extra, and a few spring select players, all from same region.  It was all based on the coach.  She had chances to move to Legends, but we went with the girls she plays with and the coach she plays with.  He provided once a week training with a trainer, worked with many of the England players that come out and help to get settled here and work with the kids, teaches playing from the back, using support, playing to the keeper, etc.   We have a solid, team, could be better with a couple good recruits, but that wasn't the direction the coach wanted to go.  Went with Loyalty.  Another team in our league was the Jurupa Extra team that went on to become Riverside FC.  They were already playing club last year and winning a few tourneys.  They did some recruiting and have a very strong club, which I don't see us catching this year.  Our coach feels Extra is great, but the move to club still needs to be made around U12 - U13.  Tim, you might even know our coach as he still runs the Extra program.   Tim, you sound like a great coach and keep up the good work.  If my kid was in your program she would have stayed with you.


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## MakeAPlay (Sep 22, 2016)

timbuck said:


> I've gone back and forth on whether I should post this or not.  What the heck, here goes.  I'm sure there will be some who have issues with this.
> I hope this doesn't sounds like I'm trying to make a case for Extra vs Club.  But I wanted to add a few of my views.  I know that most club kids are putting in a lot more time than most Extra kids. (Private training, speed clinics, futsal, lots of tournaments, etc).  And above U12, the Extra program is pretty weak compared to club.  And I do think that club players are more intense due to playing time pressure.  I've debated with people on whether youth players should fight for playing time vs a guaranteed minimum amount.  I think it really depends on the individual player.
> My gu12 team will likely make a move out of the Extra program after this season.
> Like any activity, a lot of it depends on the coach.  A great coach at a crappy club is good.  A crappy coach at a great club is bad.  A great coach at a great club is obviously the ideal situation.  Not saying I'm a great or a crappy coach.  But I am pretty dedicated.
> ...



Great stuff coach!!  You are an awesome human being!!


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## Sped (Sep 22, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> Son moved to new club: 2 hrs practice, 1 hr training, 2 hrs practice, 90 min skills, 90 min games x 2, warmups ... that's 11 hours ... add maybe a couple more for commuting time. So 13 hours a week. Who are these kids doing 30-40 hours each week?


None.  Seriously, anyone saying otherwise is full of sh(t.


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## timbuck (Sep 22, 2016)

mirage said:


> Wow, what a laundry list of stuff.  Have no issue with it but its worth pointing out couple of things.
> 
> As a former board member for a rec league, there is an inherent cost advantage of running a competitive team under the umbrella of rec league, like AYSO.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with most of what you are saying.  But keep in mind my original post -  For the kids that aren't DA/ENCL players.  My goal is to provide players with a great soccer experience that is also competitive.

Also - because I don't get paid, I don't need to treat this like a job.  I can make some changes that may cause us to lose a game here or there.  It's not quite the same as changing to a new coach every few years, but I've certainly evolved in the way that I approach things.
I'll also point out that it can be a little bit political -  Here's my example -  I've taken a stand to not cut a player.

On the costs -  You also need to remember that the Extra program still uses volunteer referees.  So the $60 (or whatever the cost is) per game goes away.  AYSO refs tend to call too many fouls.  When we adjust back from a summer tournament season into the Fall Extra program, it takes us a few games to not be quite as physical as we were used to.

As far as being a dad coach -  I get it.  I'm sure some parents have accused me of daddy ball at one point or another.  But - the beauty of the AYSO Extra program is that EVERYONE plays. I am mandated to play every player at least 1/2 of a game on the field.  For the most part, kids are playing 3/4 of a game. And since we still take a sub break about halfway through a half of soccer, it's easy to manage this.  Up until this year, I've really moved girls around to a lot of different positions (maybe too much).  My younger kid likes to play in goal.  Her team has 4 different keepers.  I've never heard a parent complain that they wish their own kid could play in goal more often.  When not in goal, she usually plays outside mid or on defense (we play 7v7 and usually play a 2-3-1).  The older team  - I know parents would complain at U9/U10 about me moving players around too much.  "Why isn't X playing forward.  We need to score."  "How come Z is in goal?  That's not "her" position."  My reasoning for moving them around so much is that if they left my team, they would be able to play anywhere their new coach needed them.  I don't need to pad my roster to cover any costs.  If you are on the team, you will play as much as everyone else.


mirage said:


> Wow, what a laundry list of stuff.  Have no issue with it but its worth pointing out couple of things.
> 
> As a former board member for a rec league, there is an inherent cost advantage of running a competitive team under the umbrella of rec league, like AYSO.
> 
> ...


I haven't done the math, but the cost difference comes down to the following:
1. AYSO refs are volunteers.  That's about $60 per game, per team. 
2.  Coach Salary-  I think it's between $8k-$14k per team.
3.  Other admin salary (DOC), etc) and costs.
4.  Fields- I think this is a smaller portion of the cost difference than 1-3 above. 

And - with regard to DA/ECNL-  you are spot on.


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## timbuck (Sep 22, 2016)

Hit "post" too soon 
On the "it gets political"-  meant to say -
"I've never cut a player. And we've had some girs tryout that might be "better" than a current player.  But unless a spot opens up, I don't drop someone for a better player.  We've had a few girls leave for a variety of reasons.  But we usually fill a spot pretty quick.


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## jrcaesar (Sep 22, 2016)

timbuck said:


> "I've never cut a player. And we've had some girs tryout that might be "better" than a current player.  But unless a spot opens up, I don't drop someone for a better player.  We've had a few girls leave for a variety of reasons.  But we usually fill a spot pretty quick.


Since EXTRA teams are supposed to form anew every season, how do you handle fair and open evaluations of all interested players in your region?


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## jrcaesar (Sep 22, 2016)

(Not to put you on the spot. Most regions seem to keep teams fully together year over year.)


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## timbuck (Sep 23, 2016)

Our region has had 2 teams up until this Fall. 
And since we've progressed from 7v7 to 9v9 to 11v11, it's usually worked out. 
We do have independent evaluators every January during our tryout time. 
If a new player scored way above a current player, the coach would have to really justify it. 
My theory has been-  if a girl that isn't currently on the team, she's needs to be as good as my best players to justify cutting someone.   If she's as good as my bottom or a little better, then I wouldn't make a change.
Most regions only have 1 team per age group. I assume it's a bit more difficult for them


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## socalkdg (Sep 23, 2016)

There are some politics involved, and the best girls aren't always on the Extra team as some are missed.  This past year most of the U10 Extra team all went to club as a group, leaving a number of openings.  One team was formed for fall.   The club is made up of two girls from previous Extra team, 4 girls each from the two spring select teams that played in the spring for a total of 8 more, and 4 more from a 80 girl tryout.  Extra and core in our region gives 3 quarters of play to every girl, thus 14 on the team, 11 playing.  During this tryout there were at least 3 club coaches from around the area trying to grab girls as well.  I think because the girls were already playing stiffer competition, with better coaching, their skills have improved more than they would have just playing on a regular core AYSO team, thus existing players have an advantage.

Because my daughter has been playing keeper all year, but isn't ready to give up playing forward, I'm coaching a U12 AYSO team that she plays on so she can get some game experience on the field.  I ended up with one girl that is probably better than 3-4 of the girls on the Extra team, she should have been on the team, but I heard she just missed the cut.  I've made it work out as her and my daughter can practice vs each other and push each other.    I've had a coule scrimmages vs two Extra teams and we have held our own.   I've had her come to some of our club practices as well(our coach likes to run 4 vs 4 drills and it always tough to get 16, so always room to include some others), and will make sure she is on the upcoming spring select team, which should lead to her playing on the U13 Extra team next year, or at least give her spring board to playing club, either on my daughters team next year, or another club in the area.  

Money, less travel, other siblings playing at the same park are some of the reasons these girls don't go club.


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## Sizzle10 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tim, excellent feedback.   You truly represent the mission of AYSO and exemplify true coaching and sportsmanship that seems to be lacking in Club circuit. Your story is inspiring. I understand that the Club circuit is different than AYSO in much way but coaching is coaching and can be transformational for our youth when done with passion, commitment and truly focus on development. Club soccer could use more coaches like you.  Good luck.


timbuck said:


> I've gone back and forth on whether I should post this or not.  What the heck, here goes.  I'm sure there will be some who have issues with this.
> I hope this doesn't sounds like I'm trying to make a case for Extra vs Club.  But I wanted to add a few of my views.  I know that most club kids are putting in a lot more time than most Extra kids. (Private training, speed clinics, futsal, lots of tournaments, etc).  And above U12, the Extra program is pretty weak compared to club.  And I do think that club players are more intense due to playing time pressure.  I've debated with people on whether youth players should fight for playing time vs a guaranteed minimum amount.  I think it really depends on the individual player.
> My gu12 team will likely make a move out of the Extra program after this season.
> Like any activity, a lot of it depends on the coach.  A great coach at a crappy club is good.  A crappy coach at a great club is bad.  A great coach at a great club is obviously the ideal situation.  Not saying I'm a great or a crappy coach.  But I am pretty dedicated.
> ...


Timbuck, excellent feedback.   You truly represent the mission of AYSO and exemplify true coaching and sportsmanship that seems to be lacking in the Club circuit. Your story is inspiring. I understand that the Club circuit is different in many ways than AYSO but coaching is coaching and can be transformational for our youth when done with passion, commitment and truly focus on development. Club soccer could use more coaches like you.  Good luck.


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## Sizzle10 (Sep 23, 2016)

mirage said:


> Wow, what a laundry list of stuff.  Have no issue with it but its worth pointing out couple of things.
> 
> As a former board member for a rec league, there is an inherent cost advantage of running a competitive team under the umbrella of rec league, like AYSO.
> 
> ...


Mirage, excellent feedback.  I would love to hear from other coaches on your comment regarding a coach's effectiveness after a couple of yours as it relates to coaching youth soccer.  This is the first time I heard this and I thought that having the same coach (specially if it's a good coach) works better because of the consistent approach or familiarity with player and vice versa. However, your point seems very valid and I'm curious to hear responses from coaches, may be in a separate thread.


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## xav10 (Sep 23, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> Likewise if the player had the passion to go over and beyond what other parents deem acceptable that is a personal family choice. It's also
> I am old friends with a family who since seven believes their son will play professionally. They have dealt with the usual doubters but they remained steadfast. The kid loves and breathes soccer. It's been a pleasure to watch and they in fact are moving to Europe for him to be in an academy for a large club. Never thought I would see it honestly. Talk about walking the walk!!
> My point is - in my immediate area there are boys putting in well over 30 hours a week. So scoff all you want but they are here and they are working. It's the family choice.
> I don't know why it's everyone's immediate reaction to tear down another person. It's very odd.
> ...


They must have European passports then. Lucky them!


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## mommato2girls (Sep 23, 2016)

Timbuck, your dedication is to be applauded! I wish we had the luck of finding a coach this year half as comitted. I have my younger playing AYSO extra and her coach seems quite stellar, my daughter likes him and he seems to approach soccer in more whole athlete sense. My older daughter, eh I won't bother to beat a dead horse. As much as I like the concept of AYSO Extra I do agree with the one comment about moving up with a coach/team for several years. My older kids best friend is also a soccer player. She's on her 5th year with the same coach and same core group of girls. She has almost topped off her play, not progressing but just stagnant. Weve had 3 years of 3 coaches but 2 of them with same assistant coach and 5 or 6 girls. My kiddo transformed from defender to center mid to left fwd. She does rotate, mid, fwd, defender now and can play all three and I think it's bc each coach saw something different in her. Her 2nd coach really focused a lot on developing her left kick, which has really payed off for her. So while I think keeping a core group of girls together is beneficial, I like seeing new coaches and the different approaches they take. But take everything I say with a grain of salt, as I'm still a newbie  I also have to add I have no had a bad parent/coach experience up until this year, so between my kids that's 6 coaches not including assistant coaches and we've only hit one bad apple, not too bad.


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## Striker17 (Sep 27, 2016)

xav10 said:


> They must have European passports then. Lucky them!


Dual citizenship.


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## KONI (Oct 3, 2016)

timbuck said:


> This tends to happen on sports related forums.
> People at the sharp end of the spear are the most vocal on message boards like this.
> I used to be pretty active in running, cycling, swimming.  I've done a ton of different distance races (5k running all the way up to full ironman distance triathlon.  I was never "fast", but had respectable results for a guy without much genetic help.  Definitely not built for distance).  If you go on to a triathlon forum, you'd think that unless you are near a 9 hour finish for an ironman, then you are a loser and should just stay on the couch.  Or unless you have qualified for the Boston Marathon, you might as well just be a mall walker.
> The reality is that 80-90% of people in these events are much, much slower.
> ...


In response to your post....my daughter was asked to be a part of evaluations for the next year...nothing was brought upon her, nor was she forced to go..decision was left up to her since it is her life and her journey...a feel it is a little presumptuous  to assume that anxiety and pressure are being forcefully placed upon all kids...plus in the club world...I am finding out that this is the nature of the beast....very competitive. I feel it is good to have kids exposed to pressure situations and competition in small doses...thus is life in the real world. One of the ways we learn  to succeed is through applying and analyzing past experiences...if nothing else club soccer has taught her a few great  life lessons already...


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## KONI (Oct 3, 2016)

Striker17 said:


> Great post!
> The way I also read it frankly is that the majority of "club players" are probably AYSO. It's just a gaming circuit in my opinion. Club should really be for the very serious players but has devolved into a money making 3-4 team enterprise. This unfortunately gives parents some unrealistic expectations I believe.
> My daughter is on the bubble. I rely on her to be with a good coach and like that there are still lots of players who are better than her that challenge her in so many ways.
> We are not at the type of club where relax is an option. I wouldn't have it any other way though as it fits who she is!


Completely agree with you! There are so many club teams and levels out there that I feel some parents and players are being lead astray as to dreamy expectations vs. reality of the situation.....


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