# It's Just For Your Own Good !



## thirteenknots




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## thirteenknots

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462791892219793414
Crazy Eyes From Down Under.
Australia is done.


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## dad4

The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.

The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.

Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.

And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).  

So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.

Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.


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## met61

dad4 said:


> The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
> 
> The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
> 
> Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.
> 
> And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
> 
> So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
> 
> Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
> 
> The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
> 
> Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.
> 
> And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
> 
> So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
> 
> Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.


In fairness to the OP, there have been 3 arguments raised (not necessarily by you) for the mandates.

1. For your own good.  The problem with this argument then is why do you let people make important choices like voting or having children without a license, all of which for most people is more impactful.

2. For the good of the hospital system.  This argument works in places like the Czech Republic or Ireland with limited ICU capacity, but stops working when enough of your pop is vaccinated or if you have sufficient hospital capacity to weather a delta wave, like the US has been shown to be able to do.

3. To prevent spread.  One issue with this argument is that it concedes the vaccine then is imperfect with respect to serious illness (otherwise why do you care).  The second issue is that it assumes the vaccinated are not spreading it. a. we know that's not true...the only question really is how much of a difference, b. we know that vaccine efficiency is declining with time (counting a 2% efficient J&J shot as "immune" after 6 months makes your mandate theater), c. we know that peak viral loads can be similar even if the duration may not be but that means you are back to 2 in your argument.

The jury is still out on what the boosters do.  But if you are going to argue for a mandate that actually does something, it's become overwhelming evident that such a mandate (if 3 is your concern) would need to include boosters, otherwise you are just doing theater.  

BTW, you said you opposed a mandate...so what changed?


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## GoldenGate

Grace T. said:


> In fairness to the OP, there have been 3 arguments raised (not necessarily by you) for the mandates.
> 
> 1. For your own good.  The problem with this argument then is why do you let people make important choices like voting or having children without a license, all of which for most people is more impactful.
> 
> 2. For the good of the hospital system.  This argument works in places like the Czech Republic or Ireland with limited ICU capacity, but stops working when enough of your pop is vaccinated or if you have sufficient hospital capacity to weather a delta wave, like the US has been shown to be able to do.
> 
> 3. To prevent spread.  One issue with this argument is that it concedes the vaccine then is imperfect with respect to serious illness (otherwise why do you care).  The second issue is that it assumes the vaccinated are not spreading it. a. we know that's not true...the only question really is how much of a difference, b. we know that vaccine efficiency is declining with time (counting a 2% efficient J&J shot as "immune" after 6 months makes your mandate theater), c. we know that peak viral loads can be similar even if the duration may not be but that means you are back to 2 in your argument.
> 
> The jury is still out on what the boosters do.  But if you are going to argue for a mandate that actually does something, it's become overwhelming evident that such a mandate (if 3 is your concern) would need to include boosters, otherwise you are just doing theater.
> 
> BTW, you said you opposed a mandate...so what changed?


You seem to have learned all but one thing from your anti-vax/mask Herman Cain Award winner friends.

Awardee refused vaccine and compared it to concentration camps. Then he spent 6 weeks on a ventilator and died. (edited & reposted) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Reposted at mod request: UPDATE: "Brady" a picture-perfect HCA nominee who shared every meme imaginable, has claimed his award, leaving behind a distraught wife and confused young daughter. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Update: “Hell is Truth Seen Too Late” This awardee chose protecting his freedom over his family and lost the Covid lottery. He leaves his wife of 50 years on a ventilator. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Blue had more to say than most awardees, instead of just posting memes blankly. Unfortunately, he didn’t use any of the logic or common sense he lamented are gone now. His dad posts his award notice while still having an anti-mandate frame. You can’t make this stuff up. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
Yellow was a trailblazer rebel on Facebook who spent much time in Jail for spreading his misinformation. Now his wife, red, and his blue grandchildren get to reap what he sowed.SMH bc I’m currently editing his good nominated friend, so we can add SuperSPREADER (Repost bc I didn’t redact a name) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
“If you think this is our last pandemic, you are sadly mistaken.” She is anti-mandate, anti-Fauci and thinks the media coverage is “the devil at work”. Her daughter announced she had covid, her sister announced her “peaceful” passing and her friend posted a denial of the cause of death. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com) 
This awardee hated masks and definitely didn’t trust “that shot.” His friends tried to help him stay safe but quickly became frustrated. He might have gotten away with it all, if a loved one hadn’t summoned Candace Owens. (repost/redact) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Local martial arts instructor and anti-vax shitposter accepts his award. *repost with further redaction* : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> In fairness to the OP, there have been 3 arguments raised (not necessarily by you) for the mandates.
> 
> 1. For your own good.  The problem with this argument then is why do you let people make important choices like voting or having children without a license, all of which for most people is more impactful.
> 
> 2. For the good of the hospital system.  This argument works in places like the Czech Republic or Ireland with limited ICU capacity, but stops working when enough of your pop is vaccinated or if you have sufficient hospital capacity to weather a delta wave, like the US has been shown to be able to do.
> 
> 3. To prevent spread.  One issue with this argument is that it concedes the vaccine then is imperfect with respect to serious illness (otherwise why do you care).  The second issue is that it assumes the vaccinated are not spreading it. a. we know that's not true...the only question really is how much of a difference, b. we know that vaccine efficiency is declining with time (counting a 2% efficient J&J shot as "immune" after 6 months makes your mandate theater), c. we know that peak viral loads can be similar even if the duration may not be but that means you are back to 2 in your argument.
> 
> The jury is still out on what the boosters do.  But if you are going to argue for a mandate that actually does something, it's become overwhelming evident that such a mandate (if 3 is your concern) would need to include boosters, otherwise you are just doing theater.
> 
> BTW, you said you opposed a mandate...so what changed?


No need for a mandate when transmission is low enough that we can just ignore the anti-vax people and let them be free riders.  5% anti-vax folks are not enough to keep the original virus around and close to everyone else.   They slow down the decline in cases, but that is all.

With higher transmissibility and more anti-vax people, that strategy doesn’t work.  20% anti-vax folks are enough to keep delta alive and close to everyone else.  In this case, they aren’t just slowing the decline, they are preventing it entirely.

My notion of mandate is different from Austria’s.  I support passports to keep high risk people out of high risk places.  But that does not apply to low risk places.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> No need for a mandate when transmission is low enough that we can just ignore the anti-vax people and let them be free riders.  5% anti-vax folks are not enough to keep the original virus around and close to everyone else.   They slow down the decline in cases, but that is all.
> 
> With higher transmissibility and more anti-vax people, that strategy doesn’t work.  20% anti-vax folks are enough to keep delta alive and close to everyone else.  In this case, they aren’t just slowing the decline, they are preventing it entirely.
> 
> My notion of mandate is different from Austria’s.  I support passports to keep high risk people out of high risk places.  But that does not apply to low risk places.



ah....you are clinging to the idea that still if you get a high enough vaccination rate + masks you can get to the point where the R drops below 1 and the delta disappears.  flaws in the argument: a. you are constantly neglecting the decline in vaccine efficiency...you only get there if natural immunity and/or boosters makes it so the protection against infection is robust (the J&J shot declines to near zero making your mandate that allows for a 1 dose J&J shot meaningless...so I admit it's possible but you only get there if either i. you blow it out and encourage everyone to acquire natural immunity meaning we tear your mask out of your cold dead grasp, or ii. you mandate boosters, b. assuming arguendo masks actually help that much, people are not going to agree to wear masks for years on end...the recent private home mask mandate from that one northern county is laughable....even in NorCal you aren't going to get a high percentage of people obeying, and c. the R fluctuates with other conditions such as winter seasonality (see Ireland, Singapore, Vermont).


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## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> My notion of mandate is different from Austria’s. I support *authoritarian/totalitarian methods* to keep high risk people out of high risk places *even though it won't make one bit of difference to the spread*. But that does not apply to low risk places.


I fixed it for you.


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## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
> 
> The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
> 
> Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.
> 
> And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
> 
> So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
> 
> Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.



Your well oiled LIE is doing nothing but making you feel better.
Go have your immune system checked thoroughly, and get back 
with the Truth.
I do wish you the best.


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## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> No need for a mandate when transmission is low enough that we can just ignore the anti-vax people and let them be free riders.  5% anti-vax folks are not enough to keep the original virus around and close to everyone else.   They slow down the decline in cases, but that is all.
> 
> With higher transmissibility and more anti-vax people, that strategy doesn’t work.  20% anti-vax folks are enough to keep delta alive and close to everyone else.  In this case, they aren’t just slowing the decline, they are preventing it entirely.
> 
> My notion of mandate is different from Austria’s.  I support passports to keep high risk people out of high risk places.  But that does not apply to low risk places.


The high " Risk " are the vaccinated now. 
Look it up on a valid site, not a regurgitated story site.
Co-morbidities are always a risk no matter what virus/disease.


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## thirteenknots

*“Businesses's In New South Wales (NSW) Will Be Held Accountable”*


The* lead vaccine researchers driving all government policy* in Australia received $*65,330,038* in government grants covering 2020-2023. Grants of this size are unprecedented.

Remember when *Clive Palmer said in a press conference* two weeks ago that *Gladys Berejiklian was being paid tens of millions of dollars by a lobbyist in Sydney?*

Notice that the name* “K Macartney” appears next to every single one of the grants*. This is referring to* Professor Kristine Macartney *who is a paediatrician specialising in infectious diseases and vaccinology at the University of Sydney. She is also a *director of the National Centre for Immunisation Research & Surveillance (NCIRS).*

Most revealingly, she is also a member of the *Advisory Committee on Vaccines (ACV) of the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).*

Y*ep, the same TGA that BANNED lvermectin as an early treatment option for treating COVlD despite its high efficacy in other countries*. *Prof Kristine Macartney has also acted as an expert consultant to the surprise surprise World Health Organisation (WHO).*

She was also one of the contributing authors of a peer-reviewed paper entitled “*Constructing an ethical framework for priority allocation of pandemic vaccines.”*

“_*Now you know why lvermectin was banned.”*_

All this is probably an indicator why* Prof Kristine Macartney seemed very uncomfortable when she was questioned during yesterday’s NSW Supreme Court hearings.*

“_*Another point of interest is that many of the grants were applied for and awarded before 2020.”*_



*(The barrister asked Kristine McCartney a few questions today (*_*the player behind the scenes that insisted we lock down our state and mandate vaccines as the only solution*_*)*

• *Barrister –*_ *‘Is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?*_



• *Kristine –*_ *Yes.*_



• *Barrister –*_ *‘Are vaccines dangerous at all to pregnant women or those planning to fall pregnant?’*_



•* Kristine –*_ *Yes.*_



• *Barrister –*_ *‘Is it true that the vaccines have never been studied for effectiveness and safety’?*_



• *Kristine –*_ *Yes, they have never been fully studied.*_



• _*We are patiently waiting for what was meant to be the final hearing today and it’s looking promising that the Judge Thomas Beech Jones will put a stop to the mandatory rollout of the vaccines.*_



• _*Judge Thomas Beech Jones also stated that the government suppressed the medication to the population and the government made people believe there was no way out of this unless we all get the vaccine.*_

_*As a wise man once said, the people have the power, all we have to do is awaken the power in the people!”)*_

*“Permanently Muzzling Society”*

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/disease/permanently-muzzling-society/



Looping the common cold in with the coronavirus is a dangerous step toward endless tyranny. The CDC initially said that anyone who received the jab would not be required to wear masks, but now it appears that they are supporting the idea of wearing masks for the foreseeable future. As we have seen since the pandemic began, CDC suggestions can quickly become mandates. There is no evidence of mask mandates effectively protecting the public. In fact, some states with mask mandates have higher cases of COVID than those without requirements such as California v Florida. If we do not hold the line, the mandates and control over society will never end.


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## dad4

thirteenknots said:


> The high " Risk " are the vaccinated now.
> Look it up on a valid site, not a regurgitated story site.
> Co-morbidities are always a risk no matter what virus/disease.


Not sure what you count as a valid site.

My county health department is showing unvaccinated infection rates running about ten times as high as vaccinated.






						COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
					






					covid19.sccgov.org
				




Do you have a link to one of your “valid” sites?  I haven’t seen anyone reputable make the claim you just did.


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## met61

dad4 said:


> Not sure what you count as a valid site.
> 
> My county health department is showing unvaccinated infection rates running about ten times as high as vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Case Rates by Vaccination Status - Emergency Operations Center - County of Santa Clara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19.sccgov.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a link to one of your “valid” sites?  I haven’t seen anyone reputable make the claim you just did.


...here you go.






						Deaths by vaccination status, England       - Office for National Statistics
					

Age-standardised mortality rates  for deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19), non-COVID-19 deaths and all deaths by vaccination status, broken down by age group.



					www.ons.gov.uk


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## Soccermaverick

https://mereinkling.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hitler.jpg


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## dad4

met61 said:


> ...here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deaths by vaccination status, England       - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> Age-standardised mortality rates  for deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19), non-COVID-19 deaths and all deaths by vaccination status, broken down by age group.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ons.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12133


Yes.  Ages 10 to 59.  Deaths from all causes.

Vaccination status correlates with age.
Death from all causes correlates with age.

Your chart neatly proves that older vaccinated Britons are more likely to die of heart attacks than younger unvaccinated Britons.

How completely unexpected.  I wonder what the cause is....


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## Soccermaverick

Lead Paragraphs:

Europe is likely to experience more than two million Covid-19 deaths by March, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has warned.

The WHO said the European region remains “in the firm grip” of the coronavirus pandemic, with reported daily deaths rising to almost 4,200 a day – double the 2,100 deaths a day at the end of September.

Reported deaths from the virus have already passed the 1.5 million mark for the 53 countries that make up the WHO European region, the global health agency said.

Covid-19 is the number one cause of death across Europe and central Asia, and the WHO said it expects there to be “high or extreme stress on hospital beds in 25 countries, and high or extreme stress in intensive care units (ICUs) in 49 out of 53 countries between now and March 2022”.


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## Soccermaverick

excerpt:

One of the largest studies so far has gathered data from 1.2 million people who received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine and logged their experience in the COVID Symptom Study app, which was developed by the London-based data-science company ZOE and King’s College London1. The team found that a full two-dose regimen of vaccination reduced the risk of long COVID — as defined by persistent symptoms for at least 28 days after infection — by about half among those who had breakthrough infections. But the study contained disproportionately more women than men and fewer people from lower-income areas.

Still, the message is clear, says Claire Steves, a geriatrician at King’s College London and lead author of the study. Vaccination considerably reduces infection rates and the severity of symptoms: even with waning immunity and the emergence of the more-infectious Delta variant. One study of US veterans found that the COVID-19 vaccines for that group offered about 50% protection against coronavirus infection, even during the Delta surge6. Steves and her colleagues found that vaccination then further reduces the risk of long COVID in those who develop a breakthrough infection by another half: about 11% in the unvaccinated group had persistent symptoms for at least 28 days compared with about 5% in the vaccinated group of breakthrough infections1. Even so, the number of people who developed long COVID from breakthrough infections is significant, she says. “It does still exist — we do still have to be aware that’s the case.”


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## Soccermaverick

The American Medical Association voted last week to allow only licensed physicians to write requests for patients seeking medical exemptions from vaccine mandates.

But the association does not have the power to enforce what is, in effect, a symbolic action intended to show concern as tens of thousands of people seek exemptions. While some states prohibit alternative practitioners like homeopaths, osteopaths, chiropractors and naturopaths from writing medical exemptions for vaccines, other states allow it.

“Science supports a vaccine mandate,” said Dr. Gerald E. Harmon, the president of the American Medical Association, “and we do not need to offer routes to evade mandates and undermine public health by seeking out practitioners who are not licensed or medically trained.”

The A.M.A.’s stance reflects increasing frustration among doctors with the spread of misinformation about Covid-19 vaccines and the virus. The association says that alternative practitioners are less likely than licensed physicians to recommend vaccines, and that they may even advise people not be vaccinated.

But removing power from alternative practitioners would not stop patients from getting invalid medical exemption requests. Licensed medical doctors are also writing bogus requests, according to doctors who are being asked to rule on them.

Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at the University of California, San Francisco, sees the problem with invalid exemptions firsthand. Although California prohibits alternative practitioners from writing vaccine exemptions, patients are finding licensed doctors who will write them.

Dr. Chin-Hong said the university often called on him to evaluate the requests.

“I have never seen one that passed muster,” he said.

Some patients seeking a medical exemption will simply hop from one doctor to another if they are turned down, said Lawrence O. Gostin, a global health law professor at Georgetown University. If the university denies their request, he added, people often turn up again with a request for a religious exemption.

— Gina Kolata


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## met61

Soccermaverick said:


> Lead Paragraphs:
> 
> Europe is likely to experience more than two million Covid-19 deaths by March, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has warned.
> 
> The WHO said the European region remains “in the firm grip” of the coronavirus pandemic, with reported daily deaths rising to almost 4,200 a day – double the 2,100 deaths a day at the end of September.
> 
> Reported deaths from the virus have already passed the 1.5 million mark for the 53 countries that make up the WHO European region, the global health agency said.
> 
> Covid-19 is the number one cause of death across Europe and central Asia, and the WHO said it expects there to be “high or extreme stress on hospital beds in 25 countries, and high or extreme stress in intensive care units (ICUs) in 49 out of 53 countries between now and March 2022”.


...In other news: 

In the United States, sane Americans will enjoy a family, friends, and freedom filled Thanksgiving... citing; "to hell with what Fauci says."

...now back to you Dick.


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## Soccermaverick

met61 said:


> ...In other news:
> 
> In the United States, sane Americans will enjoy a family, friends, and freedom filled Thanksgiving... citing; "to hell with what Fauci says."
> 
> ...now back to you Dick.


The anti vax movement in Europe is stronger than the US.. ah… leopards eating my face and consequences of my actions…

if you are unvaccinated and won’t wear a mask ….your breath is killing people… end of story


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## Soccermaverick

As COVID-19 hospitalizations climb and residents seek care that they might have put off over the last year and a half, the Baker administration will next week begin requiring hospitals to roll back non-essential and non-urgent scheduled procedures if the number of available beds at the facility is limited. 

The new order from Acting Public Health Commissioner Margret Cooke was developed in tandem with the Massachusetts Health & Hospital Association and is intended to ensure that hospitals maintain adequate capacity for immediate health care needs while they deal with “a critical staffing shortage” that has already fueled the loss of about 500 medical/surgical and ICU hospital beds across Massachusetts, the Baker administration said. 

The order is effective Nov. 29. “The current strain on hospital capacity is due to longer than average hospital stays and significant workforce shortages, separate and apart from the challenges brought on by COVID,” Secretary of Health and Human Services Marylou Sudders said. “COVID hospitalizations in Massachusetts remain lower than almost every other state in the nation, but the challenges the healthcare system face remain, and this order will ensure hospitals can serve all residents, including those who require treatment for COVID-19.”


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## Soccermaverick

An Interview With Dr. Anthony Fauci (Published 2021)
					

America’s top infectious disease official discusses the state of the coronavirus, booster shots, mandates and the end of the pandemic.




					www.nytimes.com


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## Soccermaverick

‎The Daily: An Interview With Dr. Anthony Fauci on Apple Podcasts
					

‎Show The Daily, Ep An Interview With Dr. Anthony Fauci - Nov 12, 2021



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
> 
> The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
> 
> Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.
> 
> And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
> 
> So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
> 
> Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.


And Everything to do with your denial of Science.


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## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
> 
> The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
> 
> Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission.  The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature.  It may be a fact you don’t like.  But that doesn’t make it false.
> 
> And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates.  (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
> 
> So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence.  It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
> 
> Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.


*“You can’t make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen.”--Michelle Obama's cliche*

While I can’t speak for Ms. Obama, I assure you that my favorable posting of her remark was not, contrary to your interpretation, *a “rash call to ignore risks.” Of course risks must be accounted for. And also of course, the higher the risk of harm from any particular source, the greater should be the amount of precaution taken against that source.

But this reality – this counsel of prudence – doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable to overreact to any one risk. After all, it’s typically the case that the greater the precaution you take against risk X, the greater becomes your exposure to risks Y and Z. And so if you focus exclusively on risk X you ignore these other risks. Therefore, while you might succeed in your narrow effort to reduce as much as possible your exposure to risk X, you’ll be unaware of your resulting higher – and likely excessive – exposure to other risks.*

I posted that photo at my blog as evidence that in a more-sane era – namely, before March 2020 – there was popular understanding that an action is not inadvisable merely because that action entails some risk. *Yet too many people today ignore this truth on all matters related to Covid. Too many people today assume that no amount of risk, regardless of how small, of encountering Covid-19 is acceptable – and, therefore, that no price is too high to pay for even the minutest increment of reduction in the risks of encountering Covid.

This attitude is what I call Covid Derangement Syndrome.* I’m convinced that this syndrome poses to society a _far_ larger risk than does Covid itself. Against the latter we have vaccines (and, if we only had the good sense to use it, the option of Focused Protection); against the former we have too few defenses.

Sincerely,
Don


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## Bruddah IZ

The _Wall Street Journal_ reports on the growing resistance to *Covidocratic tyranny in Austria*. A slice:

“This is sheer madness: How long will we have lockdowns despite vaccination and despite all the restrictions we have put up with already?” said Elfi Cohen, a travel guide from Vienna who had to cancel all of her tours in the run-up to Christmas, the most lucrative season for her business.
Ms. Cohen will take her third coronavirus shot this week and so far has supported all measures, but is now losing hope that the pandemic can be managed with renewed restrictions, she said.
About two thirds of Austria’s nearly nine million residents are vaccinated, just under the average figure for the European Union but above the level in the U.S., according to Oxford University’s Our World in Data website. Yet its seven-day rolling average of new cases hit 1,531.7 per million people on Sunday, more than five times the U.S. level. Daily Covid-19-related deaths per million inhabitants hit a seven-day average of 4.88 on Sunday, according to the website, above the U.S., Germany, France and the U.K.

(*DBx*: *To be certain that you don’t miss this last figure, I quote again: “Daily Covid-19-related deaths per million inhabitants hit a seven-day average of 4.88.” As a percentage of one million, 4.88 is 0.000488. The Austrian government is imprisoning that country’s entire population as it also demands that everyone be injected with a particular medicine when the seven-day average of Covid-19-related deaths, as a percentage of the population, is 0.000488. Why aren’t many more people up in arms about this madness?)*


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> ah....you are clinging to the idea that still if you get a high enough vaccination rate + masks you can get to the point where the R drops below 1 and the delta disappears.  flaws in the argument: a. you are constantly neglecting the decline in vaccine efficiency...you only get there if natural immunity and/or boosters makes it so the protection against infection is robust (the J&J shot declines to near zero making your mandate that allows for a 1 dose J&J shot meaningless...so I admit it's possible but you only get there if either i. you blow it out and encourage everyone to acquire natural immunity meaning we tear your mask out of your cold dead grasp, or ii. you mandate boosters, b. assuming arguendo masks actually help that much, people are not going to agree to wear masks for years on end...the recent private home mask mandate from that one northern county is laughable....even in NorCal you aren't going to get a high percentage of people obeying, and c. the R fluctuates with other conditions such as winter seasonality (see Ireland, Singapore, Vermont).


Declines in immunity are just a thing.   If your covid strategy is vaccine immunity, expect some amount of boosters.  If your covid strategy is natural immunity, expect some repeat infections.  

The disease is too new for anyone to be certain how many boosters, or how many repeat infections, are necessary.  

But it doesn’t change much.  Vaccines appear to need at least the 3rd shot, at least if you put the first two so close together.  Therefore if you want to go to high risk places, you should keep up with the recommended boosters.

Why do you care about immuntity declines only for boosters?  Seems you should be making a big stink about the repeated infection needed to keep natural immunity.


----------



## crush

Remember when?

Two weeks to flat the curve
No Mask needed
Mask needed until jab is available
No mask if you get wo jabs
Free lotto tickets, free combo meals, $75 for each shot.  Free donuts.
Fully Jabbed=Two Jabs
Fully Jabbed 2.0= Two Jabs + boosters
Mask forever because it keeps the flu away as well and frankly, it's better not to see anyone smile anymore.
No Vax=Fired
No Vax=No ride to college for sports ((huge financial loss of ride & future earnings too))
No Vax=No Thanksgiving with woke family & friends
What's next?  How far down will the likes of Espola and Husker take our beautiful country that they want destroyed through hating others, cheating and lying?



Howard Stern is going to run for President!!

"Believe me, this here is the turning into a third world country because of these fucking morons we have living here, Howard said.  "It's a sad commentary on my country.  This is my country ((oh really?)).  I've got too many morons living here.  We could be past a lot of the COVID business."


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Declines in immunity are just a thing.   If your covid strategy is vaccine immunity, expect some amount of boosters.  If your covid strategy is natural immunity, expect some repeat infections.
> 
> The disease is too new for anyone to be certain how many boosters, or how many repeat infections, are necessary.
> 
> But it doesn’t change much.  Vaccines appear to need at least the 3rd shot, at least if you put the first two so close together.  Therefore if you want to go to high risk places, you should keep up with the recommended boosters.
> 
> Why do you care about immuntity declines only for boosters?  Seems you should be making a big stink about the repeated infection needed to keep natural immunity.


It's funny, this whole vaccine thing is kinda like wearable tech.  Current vaccines are so yesterday.  It's obvious to so many that current vaccines just aren't cutting it.  Luckily we have this thing called science (not MSM science) that is looking at really important data from mulitple streams and trying to figure out how to make things better.  It's as if the current vaccines are a stop gap.  A decent one at that but not good enough.  You can't booster your way out of a pandemic.  We can barely get people to show up for yearly check ups. If you are relying on boosters to be safe, stay home.

By the way, repeated reinfection amongst those who were infected with covid sans vaccine is likley happening every single day.  The beauty of T-cells is they work much harder behind the scenes, eliciting responses and clearing infections before they become detectable by current tests. Research is still being done on exactly why/how this is achieved.    Unfortunately natural immunity is being politicized by many.   Not much data available on re-infection after natural immunity.  What's out there shows it's a rare occurence.  When it does occure, similar trend lines happen- not deadly to the younger population, more so to the older population.  Sound familiar.

But let's vaccinate healthy children, who are likely to have asymptomatic infections and generate robust and durable immunity/protection.   Makes so much sense, so sciency.  If you've had covid sans vaccine and aren't suffering lingering effects, you are 100 steps ahead of a vaccinated person.  Get the vaccine if you want, won't hurt.  If you are vaccinated and get covid, sweet.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Declines in immunity are just a thing.   If your covid strategy is vaccine immunity, expect some amount of boosters.  If your covid strategy is natural immunity, expect some repeat infections.
> 
> The disease is too new for anyone to be certain how many boosters, or how many repeat infections, are necessary.
> 
> But it doesn’t change much.  Vaccines appear to need at least the 3rd shot, at least if you put the first two so close together.  Therefore if you want to go to high risk places, you should keep up with the recommended boosters.
> 
> Why do you care about immuntity declines only for boosters?  Seems you should be making a big stink about the repeated infection needed to keep natural immunity.


What happened largely answered you.  The open question with the boosters is if they fade.  If it's a long time period (years) then we're probably o.k. If it's 6 months to a year, that opens the door (which Fauci has already talked about) for repeated boosters needed to keep cases (as opposed to disease/death) under control.  At that point mandates become impractical.  You are getting this resistance for a mandate for 2 shots already, the side effects for some people can be unpleasant, and we know flu shot uptake (which is far less unpleasant) is only about 50% (and some of that is late).  Your mandate falls apart at that point and you get substantial resistance and civil unrest.  As What happened said, at that point you can't boost your way out of the pandemic.

Natural immunity appears to last longer (no conclusive proof yet, but people infected in March 2020 are still showing good antibody levels).  There's also the T-cell immunity which what-happened talked about.  Natural immunity may vary depending on how severe of a case the person got, but on the whole seems to be pretty robust.

But you are correct...if both fade quickly, as I've said before, there is no such thing as herd immunity (short of the virus imploding like the Japanese study suggests in which case Trump will have turned out to be spectacularly and however stupidly right, except for the timing).  The question, as you were the first to identify on these forums, is on a daily basis what % of people who have immunity are falling out of immunity....if that number is large then we are just chasing the dragon of herd immunity.

p.s. if severe disease is eliminated by the vax and natural immunity, what do you care about repeated covid infections??? You don't have a right to live your life free of a cold.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It's funny, this whole vaccine thing is kinda like wearable tech.  Current vaccines are so yesterday.  It's obvious to so many that current vaccines just aren't cutting it.  Luckily we have this thing called science (not MSM science) that is looking at really important data from mulitple streams and trying to figure out how to make things better.  It's as if the current vaccines are a stop gap.  A decent one at that but not good enough.  You can't booster your way out of a pandemic.  We can barely get people to show up for yearly check ups. If you are relying on boosters to be safe, stay home.
> 
> By the way, repeated reinfection amongst those who were infected with covid sans vaccine is likley happening every single day.  The beauty of T-cells is they work much harder behind the scenes, eliciting responses and clearing infections before they become detectable by current tests. Research is still being done on exactly why/how this is achieved.    Unfortunately natural immunity is being politicized by many.   Not much data available on re-infection after natural immunity.  What's out there shows it's a rare occurence.  When it does occure, similar trend lines happen- not deadly to the younger population, more so to the older population.  Sound familiar.
> 
> But let's vaccinate healthy children, who are likely to have asymptomatic infections and generate robust and durable immunity/protection.   Makes so much sense, so sciency.  If you've had covid sans vaccine and aren't suffering lingering effects, you are 100 steps ahead of a vaccinated person.  Get the vaccine if you want, won't hurt.  If you are vaccinated and get covid, sweet.


You can’t booster your way out of a pandemic?  Really?

How bad was your most recent pertussis infection?  

If you never had one, be sure to thank everyone around you for getting four boosters when they were healthy children.  Those shots built up the T-cell based immunity you like to talk about.

We could also chose to drop vaccine requirements and subject ourselves to multiple waves of pertussis infection, which would provide natural immunity.  That works, too.  It just kills more people along the way.


----------



## crush

Don't worry everyone, Bill is here to save the day.  He cares for all of us and wants every soul to be safe.  He's such a kind and caring person to so many of you.  He is your leader thats for damn sure.  Listen to Bill because he cares.  I see his little smile and I can see how much he loves you guys WHO took him up on this jab life forever.  His world is a world of Pandemics every year.  He's like a life guard protecting us from virus waves of poison.  Only he and his crew can help us to safety.  Smallpox anyone?  How about a Mix of so much magnets that they will pull any love of God you had out of your brain because they got into your blood.  "It's just for your own good" the OP said and Bill is working behind the scenes to get the price down and make sure everyone is jabbed for their own good and those who make so much cash on this shit others lose jobs.  This is getting intense and I think we will need a ref soon to get in between the right and the left.









						Bill Gates Hints At Surprise COVID Variant While Touting Merck & Pfizer, Referring To Them As 'We'
					

Real News & Commentary for Patriots: https://www.redvoicemedia.com/ Support Our Efforts To Keep Truth Alive: https://www.redvoicemedia.com/support-red-voice-media/ Get Dr. Vladimir 'Zev' Zelenko M.D.'s Z-Stack Protocol: https://redvoicemedia.net/zstack Sign the petition: Ban Federal Vaccine...




					tv.gab.com


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> You can’t booster your way out of a pandemic?  Really?
> 
> How bad was your most recent pertussis infection?
> 
> If you never had one, be sure to thank everyone around you for getting four boosters when they were healthy children.  Those shots built up the T-cell based immunity you like to talk about.
> 
> We could also chose to drop vaccine requirements and subject ourselves to multiple waves of pertussis infection, which would provide natural immunity.  That works, too.  It just kills more people along the way.


I don't know who you've been talking to, but this is a silly comparison.  Pertussis is a bacterium and yes there are some similarities in transmission and presentation.  Early on there was discussion about DTAP,kids, covid..but they quitely went away.  Leave the kids alone as they say.  Talk about a miracle in design...elementary school aged kids are walking petri dishes.  Always infected with something.  Apples and oranges and not worth a discussion. 

Let me meet you halfway.  Can we vaccinate/booster our way to endemic...sure, just like the flu. Unfortunately for many linear thinkers outside of sicency/medical people, there is a basic misunderstanding that this virus is so new that it's going to take time. Bottom line is we dont understand why this virus does what it does.  We are in reaction mode.  It's a good thing our bodies are such the marvel that they are, or we would all be dead.  Current tech isn't going to get us where you want this to go.  It's being proven all over the world.  

Keep arguing R, masks, etc.  It's not going away anytime soon.  Consider yourself lucky if you have access to boosters and believe in the vaccine.  There are soooo many people who will not take the vaccine, for many reasons (cultural, political, lack of knowledge) etc.  Your part of the world is like a fuzzy blanket - familar and cozy to most folks who live there.  You should be thankful your community is aligned in thought and pracice. There are large swaths of the country where it is opposite.


----------



## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> You can’t booster your way out of a pandemic?  Really?
> 
> How bad was your most recent pertussis infection?
> 
> If you never had one, be sure to thank everyone around you for getting four boosters when they were healthy children.  Those shots built up the T-cell based immunity you like to talk about.
> 
> We could also chose to drop vaccine requirements and subject ourselves to multiple waves of pertussis infection, which would provide natural immunity.  That works, too.  It just kills more people along the way.


Now you are just gaslighting.  1. You know the pertussis injection does not have the same side effects or unpleasantness.  2. As I've written before, when my kid was very young (below fully vaxxed) he was exposed to pertussis from another baby who caught it from his nanny who was vaccinated but not adult boosted.  3. the pertussis vaccine in particular has not been perfect in recent years (when I had kids, they were recommending new parents and caregivers get boosted so they wouldn't pass it on to unvaxxed babies)  4. again the question is how many shots....if it's a flu shot, forget about it....you can't boost your way out of the pandemic....if 3 (maybe)....if 4 unlikely (would have been possible in an alt universe where public health did screw the pooch so badly but given the lack of trust now no way).


----------



## crush

Rumor Mill is saying that this boss lady is looking to do a full lock down and forced jabs on everyone in her command or your ass will be put into private camps where Espola, Husker and EOTL will be in charge of security.  Nothing to learn from history because history as we were taught was full of shit.  That's right folks.  We have ALL been played.  This nice boss lady has given her head of states until Wednesday to decide to go full lockdown and prove you took the mark of the beast so you can buy & sell.  The choice is your folks. 











						Germany mulls full lockdown, vaccine mandate
					

German officials are mulling the possibility of enacting stricter coronavirus restrictions across the country amid a surge in daily infections.Chancellor Angela Merkel called on German state heads …




					thehill.com


----------



## what-happened

Grace T. said:


> Now you are just gaslighting.  1. You know the pertussis injection does not have the same side effects or unpleasantness.  2. As I've written before, when my kid was very young (below fully vaxxed) he was exposed to pertussis from another baby who caught it from his nanny who was vaccinated but not adult boosted.  3. the pertussis vaccine in particular has not been perfect in recent years (when I had kids, they were recommending new parents and caregivers get boosted so they wouldn't pass it on to unvaxxed babies)  4. again the question is how many shots....if it's a flu shot, forget about it....you can't boost your way out of the pandemic....if 3 (maybe)....if 4 unlikely (would have been possible in an alt universe where public health did screw the pooch so badly but given the lack of trust now no way).


It's a silly comparison - gaslighting is a proper way to describe it.  Dad is about 1 year behind in what is turning out to be a scramble to figure this virus out.  We are still struggling to understand cyclical emergence of the virus.  Plenty of good research is being conducted, just going to take time.  

Polio (I know everyone oversuses Polio) is a better (not the best) comparison as far as treatment development. Took a long time.  And it's still circulating in places.


----------



## thirteenknots

dad4 said:


> Yes.  Ages 10 to 59.  Deaths from all causes.
> 
> Vaccination status correlates with age.
> Death from all causes correlates with age.
> 
> Your chart neatly proves that older vaccinated Britons are more likely to die of heart attacks than younger unvaccinated Britons.
> 
> How completely unexpected.  I wonder what the cause is....



I " assume " you like Soccer, I do....
Please note the " rash " of unexpected heart problems affecting
just the Soccer Players in Europe and the UK.
It is very alarming. Very.

German Newspaper Shocked so Many Football Players Collapsed 
Recently, Refuses to Point Elephant in the Room (eutimes.net)

A List of World Class Athletes Who Died Or Suffered Severe 
Injuries After COVID-19 Vaccine : The COVID World


Posted 6th November 2021. From https://www.ukcolumn.org/community/ 

Dembele, 29, Atletico Madrid striker collapses in training, requires medical attention 




Alex Apolinario, 24, Brazilian soccer player dies after collapsing on pitch during match: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/brazilian-soccer-player-alex-apolinario-dies-after-collapsing-on-pitch-during-match-in-portugal/

Britain’s Jack Draper, 19, collapses at Miami Open: 




Mirko Kido, 36, Olympic gold medalist dies of heart attack during game: https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/indonesian-doubles-star-kido-dies-heart-attack-36-2021-06-14/

Ghanaian referee collapses during AFCON Match: 




Referee Bert Smith collapses on court due to blood clot during Gonzaga-USC men’s Elite Eight game: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/31222546/referee-bert-smith-says-blood-clot-lung-caused-fall-ncaa-tourney

Josh Downie, 24, cricketer dies after heart attack at practice: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-57058626

Giuseppe Perrino, 29, ex-Parma footballer dies at memorial match after collapsing https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/15151824/giuseppe-perrino-dead-29-parma-brother/

Raymond van Barneveld collapses and receives paramedic attention during PDC Championship: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/darts/pdc-players-championship-8-suspended-23759939

Devaraj Anchan, 33, volleyball player collapses during game, dies: https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mangalore/volleyball-player-collapses-during-game-dies/article34185430.ece

Garissone Innocent, 20, fell unconscious due to abnormal electrical impulse in heart during game: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/13901939/goalkeepers-rushed-hospital-collapsing/

Ethan Jovani Trejo, 16-year-old soccer player, collapsed on the field during training: https://eu.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/06/25/teen-dies-after-medical-incident-princeton-high-school-field/5344293001/

Samuel Kalu, 24, Bordeaux star collapses minutes into football game: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/58228778

Roy Butler, 23, Irish footballer Watford FC dies after Jansen: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428301909715296263
Dylan Rich, 19, FA Youth Cup – player suffered sudden cardiac arrest on the field, passes away: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-58496077

Vinny Curry, 33, out for season due to blood clots: https://nypost.com/2021/08/25/jets-vinny-curry-out-after-rare-blood-disorder-diagnosis/

Cameron Dale, 29, Australian sailor dies after catastrophic stroke: https://7news.com.au/sport/sailing/australian-sailor-jessica-watson-reveals-sudden-death-of-partner-cameron-dale-c-3845979

Two young Columbia High school footballers die: https://www.wistv.com/2021/09/04/he-would-love-it-donadrian-robinsons-family-reacts-tribute-wj-keenan-high-school/?outputType=apps

Bollywood’s star, 40, dies following heart attack https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9950385/Indian-TV-film-star-Siddharth-Shukla-40-dies-heart-attack.html#reader-comments

Tom Felton, 34, collapses during golf game: https://bbc.in/3i4YpI5?fbclid=IwAR0aZBaXpiX9ky34g3eLiG3pcMs5r2udih4kRGUIi7GOBK3iciefX1-qoXk

Francis Perron, 25, Ottawa footballer dies after game: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/usports-ottawa-gee-gees-francis-perron-dies-1.6182332

Parys Haralson, 37, former Saints line backer dies: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/09/13/parys-haralson-former-49-ers-and-saints-lb-dies-37/8328669002/

Jimmy Hayes, 31, former Bruins player unexpectedly dies: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/23/sports/jimmy-hayes-former-bruin-boston-college-hockey-champ-dies-31/

Kjeld Nuis, 31, Dutch professional skater admitted to hospital with inflamed heart: https://www.rtlboulevard.nl/entertainment/news/artikel/5243606/kjeld-nuis-vaccinatie-ziek-update

John Stokes, 21, athlete at Tennessee Uni hospitalized with heart inflammation: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/student-athlete-john-stokes-myocarditis-covid-vaccine-002451374.html?guccounter=1

Jake Ehlinger, 20, found dead – cause unknown: https://usdaynews.com/celebrities/celebrity-death/sam-ehlinger-brother-death-cause/

Jeremy Chardy, 34, tennis pro cannot train or play after vaccine: https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/102836/jeremy-chardy-i-regret-getting-vaccinated-i-have-series-of-problems-now/

Francesca Marcon, 38, volleybal professional can’t play, has pericarditis post vaccine: https://www.lapressa.it/notiziario/sport/la-campionessa-di-volley-ho-una-pericardite-post-vaccino

Yusuke Kinoshita, 27, baseball pro dies 7 weeks post vaccine: https://thecovidworld.com/yusuke-kinoshita-27-year-old-japanese-professional-baseball-player-dies-7-weeks-after-covid-19-vaccine/

Alex Stalock, 34, NHL Oilers goalie out for the season due to heart condition: https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-oilers-goalie-alex-stalock-miss-entire-season-with-heart-condition-covid-19-related-191817673.html

Ceylin Alvarado, 23, pro cyclists out for season due to blood complications: https://www.nu.nl/sport-overig/6160296/veldrijdster-alvarado-voorlopig-niet-in-actie-door-verstoord-bloedbeeld.html

Greg van Aevermat, 36, pro cyclist, loss of form since vaccine: https://www.indeleiderstrui.nl/wielrennen/van-avermaet-wijst-naar-vaccin-als-oorzaak-vormdip-op-deze-manier-heeft-wk-geen-zin/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Three young Belgian cyclists suffer heart issues following race: https://rtv.be/artikels/jonge-kempense-wielrenners-krijgen-hartklachten-na-vaccinatie-a102612

Kamila Label-Farrel, 19, Uni Basketball Star died unexpectedly: https://www.baytoday.ca/obituaries/lebel-farrell-kamila-3884874

Jacob Downey, 19, Queens Uni Hockey player passes away after medical emergency: https://www.kawartha411.ca/2021/10/01/local-teen-queens-university-student-passed-away-suddenly-after-medical-emergency/

Christian Eriksen, 29, Collapses at Euros due to heart issue 




Josh Archibald, 28, Oilers hockey forward out indefinitely due to myocarditis: https://www.si.com/hockey/.amp/news/oilers-forward-josh-archibald-out-indefinitely-with-myocarditis

Jen Gouveia, 38, suffered cardiac arrest during a run: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/husband-of-toronto-mother-who-died-suddenly-on-run-says-he-lost-his-everything-1.5501767

Kyle Warner, pro BMX cyclist has pericarditis post vaccine: https://youtu.be/aebtcTi7EaA

16 year old youth suffered cardiac arrest after weightlifting: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/16-year-old-suffers-cardiac-arrest-following-strenuous-weightlifting-session-six


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> It's a silly comparison - gaslighting is a proper way to describe it.  Dad is about 1 year behind in what is turning out to be a scramble to figure this virus out.  We are still struggling to understand cyclical emergence of the virus.  Plenty of good research is being conducted, just going to take time.
> 
> Polio (I know everyone oversuses Polio) is a better (not the best) comparison as far as treatment development. Took a long time.  And it's still circulating in places.


Gaslighting is waaaay overused as a phrase.  It has lost the original meaning of a deliberate attempt to convince others of a known falsehood.  Now it just means " I disagree, therefore you are lying."

If you think I am wrong about repeated boosters causing longer lasting immunity, say so.  Tell me why adults do not need MMR boosters, but kids do.  I assumed it was because the single MMR shot decays more quickly than a series of MMR shots.

But take the time to think.  Don't just say "oh, just gaslighting", and pretend that an accusation is a reasonable substitute for logical thought.


----------



## dad4

what-happened said:


> I don't know who you've been talking to, but this is a silly comparison.  Pertussis is a bacterium and yes there are some similarities in transmission and presentation.  Early on there was discussion about DTAP,kids, covid..but they quitely went away.  Leave the kids alone as they say.  Talk about a miracle in design...elementary school aged kids are walking petri dishes.  Always infected with something.  Apples and oranges and not worth a discussion.
> 
> Let me meet you halfway.  Can we vaccinate/booster our way to endemic...sure, just like the flu. Unfortunately for many linear thinkers outside of sicency/medical people, there is a basic misunderstanding that this virus is so new that it's going to take time. Bottom line is we dont understand why this virus does what it does.  We are in reaction mode.  It's a good thing our bodies are such the marvel that they are, or we would all be dead.  Current tech isn't going to get us where you want this to go.  It's being proven all over the world.
> 
> Keep arguing R, masks, etc.  It's not going away anytime soon.  Consider yourself lucky if you have access to boosters and believe in the vaccine.  There are soooo many people who will not take the vaccine, for many reasons (cultural, political, lack of knowledge) etc.  Your part of the world is like a fuzzy blanket - familar and cozy to most folks who live there.  You should be thankful your community is aligned in thought and pracice. There are large swaths of the country where it is opposite.


It won't go away soon.  You have 20% of the population insisting on their right to act as a disease reservoir.  They will get their wish.

As you said, it will become endemic.  The question is just endemic at what level.


----------



## what-happened

dad4 said:


> Gaslighting is waaaay overused as a phrase.  It has lost the original meaning of a deliberate attempt to convince others of a known falsehood.  Now it just means " I disagree, therefore you are lying."
> 
> If you think I am wrong about repeated boosters causing longer lasting immunity, say so.  Tell me why adults do not need MMR boosters, but kids do.  I assumed it was because the single MMR shot decays more quickly than a series of MMR shots.
> 
> But take the time to think.  Don't just say "oh, just gaslighting", and pretend that an accusation is a reasonable substitute for logical thought.


Point taken with gaslighting, not one of my favorite terms and one certainly overused the last 18 months - across all professional segments.

Plenty of nuance in the world of vaccines/vaccination/immunolgoy.  Not enough time and space to professionaly discuss  on a youth soccer forum. Experts disagree and are perplexed - its' why there is always research going on.  Plenty of discussion/research around the idea of MMR/DTAP and covid.  At this point, throwing mud on the wall and seeing what sticks.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> Gaslighting is waaaay overused as a phrase.  It has lost the original meaning of a deliberate attempt to convince others of a known falsehood.  Now it just means " I disagree, therefore you are lying."
> 
> If you think I am wrong about repeated boosters causing longer lasting immunity, say so.  Tell me why adults do not need MMR boosters, but kids do.  I assumed it was because the single MMR shot decays more quickly than a series of MMR shots.
> 
> But take the time to think.  Don't just say "oh, just gaslighting", and pretend that an accusation is a reasonable substitute for logical thought.


The problem with your rationale regarding boosters causing longer lasting immunity is you're trying to say that correlation, albeit absent, is the cause of COVID immunity.  Their is no evidence that boosters are causing longer lasting immunity weeks after deployment.  You are wrong.  Again.


----------



## Bruddah IZ

dad4 said:


> It won't go away soon.  You have 20% of the population insisting on their right to act as a disease reservoir.  They will get their wish.
> 
> As you said, it will become endemic.  The question is just endemic at what level.


The Corona virus hasn't gone away in 55 million years Sherlock.  And yet the world population is approaching 8 billion despite your gaslighting term, "disease reservoir" being what people wish for.  If you don't like the term, gas lighting, quit fueling it with your eloquent ignorance.


----------



## Desert Hound

dad4 said:


> How bad was your most recent pertussis infection?
> 
> If you never had one, be sure to thank everyone around you for getting four boosters when they were healthy children. Those shots built up the T-cell based immunity you like to talk about


The big difference is the vaccines you are talking about were developed and tested over years before being used in the general public. 

So they knew how long they lasted, how many if any boosters are needed, etc. 

With the covid vax they are winging it. Is it one shot? 2? How far apart? Will a 3rd make a difference? Will there be more needed? And then we don't know if it is wise council to vaxx a pregnant woman for instance. What other people fall into various risk categories that shouldn't take the vax. 

We don't know if long term for most of us who have no risk is it better to just get covid and build up natural immunity. Remember we know who is at risk. 

These are all questions that are usually learned over the course of YEARS in the development of a vaccine.

And because we really don't know many of those questions, we should not MANDATE people to get vaxxed. We certainly should not be requiring the young because they have zero risk.


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## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> The problem with your rationale regarding boosters causing longer lasting immunity is you're trying to say that correlation, albeit absent, is the cause of COVID immunity.  Their is no evidence that boosters are causing longer lasting immunity weeks after deployment.  You are wrong.  Again.


It's like trying to teach someone something you never did yourself, like live through the long term side effects of two jabs+boosters+boosters+more boosters made from a lab in Wuhan China.  These clowns tell us it's safe and nothing to worry about regarding long term because were still in the short term.  Bill, Tony and Jeffrey are all in on it.  Big trial coming on Monday and The List of those blackmailed will be coming out soon to a Tel A True Vision nearest you and you will be forced to see the truth of why this had to happen.


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## Bruddah IZ

crush said:


> It's like trying to teach someone something you never did yourself, like live through the long term side effects of two jabs+boosters+boosters+more boosters made from a lab in Wuhan China.  These clowns tell us it's safe and nothing to worry about regarding long term because were still in the short term.  Bill, Tony and Jeffrey are all in on it.  Big trial coming on Monday and The List of those blackmailed will be coming out soon to a Tel A True Vision nearest you and you will be forced to see the truth of why this had to happen.


Dad is about as dumb as they come.  His word salad is well tossed.


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## Desert Hound

A couple of days old. But the idiocy and overreach is amazing.









						Santa Cruz County Will Require Masks In Private Homes
					

The California county is imposing an indoor mask mandate which requires residents to wear masks in homes, regardless of vaccination status.




					dailycaller.com


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## crush

Bruddah IZ said:


> Dad is about as dumb as they come.  His word salad is well tossed.


Reminds me of this sales trainer I had back in my Yellow Page days.  Dude was teaching us door knocking moves that he never performed himself, only in the classroom did he teach to knock on doors.  No real world experience.  This dude talked a big game but never went out himself to get yelled at, closed the door on, told to fuck off and dont let the door hit you on the way out and so many more mean things business owners would yell at me all because I was trying to help their business get new customers from new phone calls from the phone book.  I told one guy because of his piss poor attitude towards me he will be OB by the time I circle around for next years directory.  I told hiim never to talk so rude to anyone who walks into your business.  I could be a customer I told him.  He chased me out and was so mad at me for telling him the truth.  Sure enough, dude was OB the following years book!!!  True story Bruddah IZ.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> Gaslighting is waaaay overused as a phrase.  It has lost the original meaning of a deliberate attempt to convince others of a known falsehood.  Now it just means " I disagree, therefore you are lying."
> 
> If you think I am wrong about repeated boosters causing longer lasting immunity, say so.  Tell me why adults do not need MMR boosters, but kids do.  I assumed it was because the single MMR shot decays more quickly than a series of MMR shots.
> 
> But take the time to think.  Don't just say "oh, just gaslighting", and pretend that an accusation is a reasonable substitute for logical thought.


I agree it’s overused. The gaslighting part is you are saying the pertussis vaccine is no big deal so covid boosters are no big deal. You know that’s not true. The covid shot is at a minimum unpleasant, has some scary side effects and has only been around a short time. You know they aren’t comparable which makes it a bad faith argument.

I don’t know if repeated boosters can confirm long lasting immunity. You don’t know the answer to that either (is it a chicken pox vaccine or is it the flu shot). All I’m saying is if more than 3 are required for “herd immunity” (whatever your definition) you aren’t going to get there (and I’d say 3 is less likely than so considering you are having such a tough time with 2)


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## espola

Grace T. said:


> I agree it’s overused. The gaslighting part is you are saying the pertussis vaccine is no big deal so covid boosters are no big deal. You know that’s not true. The covid shot is at a minimum unpleasant, has some scary side effects and has only been around a short time. You know they aren’t comparable which makes it a bad faith argument.
> 
> I don’t know if repeated boosters can confirm long lasting immunity. You don’t know the answer to that either (is it a chicken pox vaccine or is it the flu shot). All I’m saying is if more than 3 are required for “herd immunity” (whatever your definition) you aren’t going to get there (and I’d say 3 is less likely than so considering you are having such a tough time with 2)


Looks like you just lit up another gaslight.


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## dad4

Grace T. said:


> I agree it’s overused. The gaslighting part is you are saying the pertussis vaccine is no big deal so covid boosters are no big deal. You know that’s not true. The covid shot is at a minimum unpleasant, has some scary side effects and has only been around a short time. You know they aren’t comparable which makes it a bad faith argument.
> 
> I don’t know if repeated boosters can confirm long lasting immunity. You don’t know the answer to that either (is it a chicken pox vaccine or is it the flu shot). All I’m saying is if more than 3 are required for “herd immunity” (whatever your definition) you aren’t going to get there (and I’d say 3 is less likely than so considering you are having such a tough time with 2)


you’re gaslighting again, grace.


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## Grace T.

dad4 said:


> you’re gaslighting again, grace.


The best gaslighting is when you turn it on someone accusing you of gaslighting

nice!  We’ll done!  Classic!


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