# Do ref complaints matter?



## Monkey (Oct 2, 2017)

So this weekend, I was watching a mid-level game between teenage girls that obviously had a lot of negative experiences with each other in the past.  Near the end of the first half a girl clearly yanked the ponytail of another girl and brought her down.  This was off the ball but the AR who was probably late teens saw it and got the attention of the CR who was also pretty young.  After a discussion no foul was called.  A parent almost got ejected for wanted to show the CR the video.

At half time, the CR and AR were talking and the CR was explaining how he use to play for the club of the girl that got yanked down and hated the coach.  So at that point I could not resist and told them that I was with the ref association and was going to write him up.  I left them by saying that he should not have taken an assignment from his old club or any club he could not be objective about.

This was the game before the game that I was there to watch and my family does not have any affiliation with either club.  But I was wondering if the person with the video submitted it to the ref association what is the likely outcome?  Would they take any action against the ref with undisputable proof of a video and the AR was a witness?  I think the situation was due to the immaturity of the ref and that he might be great if he was not relishing in the coach screaming at him.


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## baldref (Oct 2, 2017)

Personally, I would be more likely to send the video to the league showing the girl so she would be suspended. But that's just me.....


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## Surfref (Oct 2, 2017)

I have to agree with Baldref.  Have someone affiliated with the club, DOC, coach, manager, send in the video along with a complaint.

Don't assume a referee is inexperienced just because they are young.  I know some very good refs that are between 16-22 years old.


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## Monkey (Oct 5, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I have to agree with Baldref.  Have someone affiliated with the club, DOC, coach, manager, send in the video along with a complaint.
> 
> Don't assume a referee is inexperienced just because they are young.  I know some very good refs that are between 16-22 years old.


Thank you for your reply.  But I am not saying that the referee is inexperienced.  I thought he was immature because it appeared that he enjoyed having power over the coach that he did not like.  I am sure he does great when his power trip does not get in the way.


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## Monkey (Oct 5, 2017)

baldref said:


> Personally, I would be more likely to send the video to the league showing the girl so she would be suspended. But that's just me.....


Good to know.  I was under the impression that if the referee does not report a player, that was the end of it.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 5, 2017)

Monkey said:


> the CR and AR were talking and the CR was explaining how he use to play for the club of the girl that got yanked down and hated the coach


I'm troubled that fans and parents think it's perfectly OK to insert themselves into halftime discussions with teenaged referees. Another reason that these late-teen referees quit and do something else.


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## Monkey (Oct 5, 2017)

jrcaesar said:


> I'm troubled that fans and parents think it's perfectly OK to insert themselves into halftime discussions with teenaged referees. Another reason that these late-teen referees quit and do something else.


Sorry you are so offended.  But I was not there to see that team and I was standing in the shade when they walked over to where I was setting up my tripod.  The CR was not a teenage, probably early 20s and in my opinion it is better that I heard him and put a stop to his conversation then one of the parents on the team that he was talking negatively about.  The parents were so irate with the non-call of the hair pull down, I am not sure what would have happened if that girl's father heard him.

In my opinion it was a valuable lesson for him to shut his mouth.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 8, 2017)

There are just so many things wrong with the *fan's actions *described in this story that it would be better for the children if all four teams involved (the two playing, the two in the next game in which a fan attempted to intimidate the referees) were reported to the organizing league for further review.


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## GKDad65 (Oct 8, 2017)

"We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games.  Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?

I applaud the ref's that work to improve their knowledge of the game, unfortunately you are in the minority.

In the end, it's just youth soccer and not personal.


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## baldref (Oct 8, 2017)

GKDad65 said:


> "We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games.  Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
> Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
> Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?
> 
> ...


One of the problems with “you” the paying customer is, “you” collectively, have no idea what you’re looking at. 

I applaud any “you” who chooses to learn the laws and how they’re applied, unfortunately, you are a huge minority


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## espola (Oct 8, 2017)

baldref said:


> One of the problems with “you” the paying customer is, “you” collectively, have no idea what you’re looking at.
> 
> I applaud any “you” who chooses to learn the laws and how they’re applied, unfortunately, you are a huge minority


Nonsense.


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## watfly (Oct 8, 2017)

According to what I've heard from quite a few coaches, ref complaints don't matter.  I think the most common response I've heard is that its a "waste of time". Why?  I can only guess because there is a shortage of refs and probably because the associations either don't have, or aren't interested in devoting, the resources to investigating ref complaints. But really is that any different to complaints about coaches? We've all seen the refs and coaches that have no business being on the pitch, but there they are week-to-week...year to year despite complaints.  Club soccer is not a customer oriented business, in fact, I don't think I've seen a business that complains about or ignores its customers more than the "service providers" within club soccer. But, hey these are 1st world problems and we love to watch our kids play.


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## MWN (Oct 9, 2017)

@GKDad65,
That isn't how it works.


GKDad65 said:


> Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
> Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?
> 
> I applaud the ref's that work to improve their knowledge of the game, unfortunately you are in the minority...


You've made a few assumptions that are not accurate and I don't know why you believe there is no process improvement.  My experience as both a customer (parent) and Grade 7 Referee is different.  I am required to attend at least 5 RPD (Referee Professional Development) courses each year and attend my local Referee Association meetings on a monthly basis where we discuss and review the Cal South monthly educational plan.  All referees in my association are required to attend at least 6 of these courses to be a member in good standing.  My association also has a referee trainer and mentoring program.

I need to correct a few of your assumptions:

Clubs generally do not engage the referee associations, its the leagues.  There may be exceptions, but the leagues work with the Referee Assignors.
Referee Associations want to put the more experienced Referees on fields that have older games and the less experienced on fields with youngers.  Newer referees are generally assigned to AR for at least a year or two.
Associations receive complaints frequently.  Most of those complaints about referees tend to be related to judgment calls and lack merit.
The reality is Referees are independent contractors.  Many of the better referees belong to multiple associations and like to work the higher level games (USSDA, ECNL, College, CSL Premier, etc.), which will sometimes leave the Associations with a shortage of experienced and higher level referees.  On these weekends, the Referee crews will be reluctantly filled with newer referees.

As a referee that is assigned to "older" games the biggest problem I experience is with:

Coaches challenging calls.
Parents challenging call.
When the coach challenges calls, the players then begin to feel empowered to dissent and argue various calls on the field, which then causes the other players to do the same, which then causes the parents to get in on the action and before you know it, that Yellow card foul is now becoming a mass confrontation.

When it comes to referee assignments, most good referees are assigned to the large venues (Silverlakes, Polo Fields, Oceanside, Galway Downs, San Bernardino, etc.) because the Associations want to keep them working at least a 3 game set (sometimes a 4 game set) and the large venues allow the Associations to move the newer ones in to get training on appropriate games.

Many clubs use schools and parks that are 1 or 2 fields.  These venues tend to get the less experienced crews (not always) because they have few games and/or tend to be the lower level games (bronze, flight 3, AA-C, etc.).

Finally, there is a constant drive to get referees, recognize those that are good and move them up.  These referees often come from the ranks of club players that are 14 and older.  Unfortunately, we lose over 1/2 of these new referees after the first year because of a singular reason.  Asshole parents and coaches.

So in conclusion ... its your (the customers) fault that we can't put better crews on the field and are constantly battling to find qualified referees ... not the clubs or associations.  Please be respectful when on the sideline, understand that the Referee crew may call a loose game or a tight game ... its all within the rules.  Please don't challenge the referee crew ... ever.  If you have a coach that is constantly challenging the referees move your kid, the coach is a dick and one of the biggest problems we have with referee retention along with the parents that support this jerk.  Let these kids learn their craft and improve without being a-holes to them.


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## Fact (Oct 9, 2017)

@MWN - What dictates whether a ref will call a loose game vs. a tight game?  I use to think that is was dependant on the age group playing and skill level (the older and more skilled teams were let to play without constant stoppages). But lately I have had a chance to see some of the more experienced ref at younger games and am now wondering if it is solely based on the ref's philosophy.


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## NumberTen (Oct 9, 2017)

MWN said:


> @GKDad65,
> That isn't how it works.
> 
> 
> ...


BOOM! MIC DROP!
https://media.giphy.com/media/DfbpTbQ9TvSX6/giphy.gif


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## watfly (Oct 9, 2017)

Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney?  Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 9, 2017)

watfly said:


> Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney?  Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.


No, and its not their fault that some NFL, EPL, and international match referees make mistakes as to the rules as well.


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## MWN (Oct 9, 2017)

Fact said:


> @MWN - What dictates whether a ref will call a loose game vs. a tight game?  I use to think that is was dependant on the age group playing and skill level (the older and more skilled teams were let to play without constant stoppages). But lately I have had a chance to see some of the more experienced ref at younger games and am now wondering if it is solely based on the ref's philosophy.


In my case, as I can't speak for others:

The directives from US Soccer asks referees to manage the game in a way that allows the game to flow with only necessary stoppages of play.  I am one of those "loose" referees tending to find careless fouls "trifling" whenever possible if the foul doesn't affect gameplay (i.e. offensive player not affected by jersey pull).  The caveat I make is boys of the same level and age tend to be called looser than girls of the same level and age BECAUSE (1) parents of girls are less tolerant of their DD falling to the ground and (2) girls are more prone to injury after puberty compared to boys of the same age.  

Basically, I agree -- Age and Level.

Loosest: Boys/Girls - Flight 1 / Premier - they generally have good control of their bodies, can anticipate strong (fair) challenges.  They also have a tendency to strategically needle their opponents into fouling them, but generally, respect their opponents.

Loose: Boys: Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - at U16/15 they are becoming men ... still a little gangly and full of misdirected testosterone.  This group is actually one of the toughest because these little bastards think its OK to start swinging ... dumbasses.

Little Tighter: Girls Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - because parents are more sensitive and get sensitive when a strong challenge is made.  These girls have a potential future.  More so than the boys, but we now have some parents that are much more vocal (f'ing parents, please be quiet).  These parents are the most likely to view this game through their rose-colored glasses.

Looser than REC: U13+ Boys/Girls Flight 3 - basically glorified REC players with better skills.  Parents that don't understand that soccer is a contact sport.

Normal - U11-U12 - Boys are looser and girls are tighter.  The parents are proud ("my kid play club soccer ... flight whatever").  This is an easy game because the kids are not A-holes.  Only the coaches and parents.  The kids are not reckless, just careless.  My only issue with these kids is telling the mid-fielder to stop listening to his Dad that is tell him to "not take it from number ??? and push him back."  God, I wished this Dad wearing his Raiders cap would shut the f up ... and what is with the neck tattoo on your dad?

Back to Loose 7v7 - Just play.  These little kids don't have any malice in their heart.  I leave my yellow and red card in its case.  Just play, but stop listening to your Dad telling you to "take it to goal" and listen to your coach.

Tight - Rec.


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## MWN (Oct 9, 2017)

watfly said:


> Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney?  Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.


You raise two issues:

Referees that are not physically fit: Yes, it is the parent's fault.  We lose 1/2 of our young, physically fit referees every year because of AHole parents and coaches.  These kids were our future. They needed game environments that did not leave them feeling like crap during and after the game and wanting to quit.  So absolutely ... parents fault.  Because these young fit kids don't want to referee anymore ... it's now up to us older fatter slower guys (me).  Do you know how many kids are in my association that have left and/or refuse to Center?  (hint its waaaaaaay tooooooo many).  Yep, parents and A-hole coaches fault.
Referees that don't know the rules?  That is 100% on the Referee.  However, most of the time its the parents that don't know the rules "Handball, Handball!!!!! (when the ball was kicked from 4 feet away and hit a players arm in .35 seconds from when it was kicked ... dumbass parents that have no understanding what a "handling" foul is ... note, this persists at the U18 level).


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## baldref (Oct 9, 2017)

MWN said:


> In my case, as I can't speak for others:
> 
> The directives from US Soccer asks referees to manage the game in a way that allows the game to flow with only necessary stoppages of play.  I am one of those "loose" referees tending to find careless fouls "trifling" whenever possible if the foul doesn't affect gameplay (i.e. offensive player not affected by jersey pull).  The caveat I make is boys of the same level and age tend to be called looser than girls of the same level and age BECAUSE (1) parents of girls are less tolerant of their DD falling to the ground and (2) girls are more prone to injury after puberty compared to boys of the same age.
> 
> ...


Concur. And well said.


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## watfly (Oct 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> No, and its not their fault that some NFL, EPL, and international match referees make mistakes as to the rules as well.


I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification.  What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games.  If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 9, 2017)

watfly said:


> I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification.  What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games.  If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.


I think the point that referees on this board are making (which is completely accurate), is that the conduct drives out the younger referees that are engaged, very fit, and working hard to learn all the nuances of the game.

Referees (not only the fat bad ones), are berated to some extent  by coaches and parents nearly each and every game they referee. Imagine if players faced what these youth referees face EVERY TIME THEY REFEREE.  There would be very few players left.


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## watfly (Oct 9, 2017)

coachrefparent said:


> I think the point that referees on this board are making (which is completely accurate), is that the conduct drives out the younger referees that are engaged, very fit, and working hard to learn all the nuances of the game.
> 
> Referees (not only the fat bad ones), are berated to some extent  by coaches and parents nearly each and every game they referee. Imagine if players faced what these youth referees face EVERY TIME THEY REFEREE.  There would be very few players left.


I understand what your saying, I just can't stretch logic far enough to blame parents for unfit refs.  I guess I haven't seen the continuous berating that you are subject to.  Do I hear the cries of "handball" ,"C'mon, ref" or "Call it both ways", sure those are fairly common, but berating...rarely.  I've been nothing but impressed by the younger refs we have had the last few years, they've been consistenly better than the "long in the tooth" refs.  As long as those young refs don't become jaded I think the future is bright.


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## Fact (Oct 9, 2017)

MWN said:


> In my case, as I can't speak for others:
> 
> The directives from US Soccer asks referees to manage the game in a way that allows the game to flow with only necessary stoppages of play.  I am one of those "loose" referees tending to find careless fouls "trifling" whenever possible if the foul doesn't affect gameplay (i.e. offensive player not affected by jersey pull).  The caveat I make is boys of the same level and age tend to be called looser than girls of the same level and age BECAUSE (1) parents of girls are less tolerant of their DD falling to the ground and (2) girls are more prone to injury after puberty compared to boys of the same age.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the great response.   Very interesting that you call girls a little tighter due to injury potential.  I would have thought it was because girls don't forget.


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## Fact (Oct 9, 2017)

In all my years I don't believe that I have ever seen a parent or coach give a hard time to a teen ref.  At least the teams my kids were on were very supportive.  I guess that is one of the reasons why we chose those teams.  They did give hard times to older refs but obviously that criticism was well deserved(sarcasm).


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## coachrefparent (Oct 9, 2017)

watfly said:


> I understand what your saying, I just can't stretch logic far enough to blame parents for unfit refs.  I guess I haven't seen the continuous berating that you are subject to.  Do I hear the cries of "handball" ,"C'mon, ref" or "Call it both ways", sure those are fairly common, but berating...rarely.  I've been nothing but impressed by the younger refs we have had the last few years, they've been consistenly better than the "long in the tooth" refs.  As long as those young refs don't become jaded I think the future is bright.


Well I commend your team and the teams you play. New teenage referees come in excited to get their badge, learn the laws, and earn $25/hour. (Teenagers are lucky to make half that an hour anywhere else. ) But the burn out numbers and why these young referees say they leave, speak for themselves.


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## jrcaesar (Oct 9, 2017)

MWN said:


> Looser than REC: U13+ Boys/Girls Flight 3 - basically glorified REC players with better skills. Parents that don't understand that soccer is a contact sport.


Funny: You're describing the U14-U16 AYSO games I'm doing this season. Anytime two girls make contact, one of them _*must*_ have committed a foul, according to coaches, parents, you-name-them! (Even the coaches who know better, although I know it's just gamemanship with those guys ... that's fine.)


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## avh (Oct 9, 2017)

MWN said:


> You raise two issues:
> 
> Referees that are not physically fit: Yes, it is the parent's fault.  We lose 1/2 of our young, physically fit referees every year because of AHole parents and coaches.  These kids were our future. They needed game environments that did not leave them feeling like crap during and after the game and wanting to quit.  So absolutely ... parents fault.  Because these young fit kids don't want to referee anymore ... it's now up to us older fatter slower guys (me).  Do you know how many kids are in my association that have left and/or refuse to Center?  (hint its waaaaaaay tooooooo many).  Yep, parents and A-hole coaches fault.


Completely agree.  My oldest son and oldest daughter ref'ed for 1 and 2 years respectively.  My son never centered and my daughter only centered for a year.  They were both pleased with the wage, loved working outdoors, and enjoyed being involved in soccer.  But they both just let it go because they got tired of being yelled at by parents and coaches.  Now my younger two daughters have a year under their belt ref'ing.  I can already see their reluctance to take some games for the same reason.

I had a parent chase me (another old fat slow guy) down two weeks ago after a game because he claimed my AR blew a call on whether a ball crossed the goal line, and on another call he claimed she blew on an offside call she raised her flag on after a deliberate save by the keeper.  He went on to tell me how his kids team was robbed.  I pointed out that she, on the end line, was probably in a much better position to make both of those calls then he was at mid field.  He continued to go off on me.  It made no difference to him when I quoted him the text from Law 11 on the offside call (we had just covered it 3 days earlier in our association meeting).  The AR was 15 and relatively new.  She did a great job of keeping up with the play and being in position to make the right calls, which from my perspective she did on both plays.  And she got to witness this guy railing about what a bad job she (and I) did.  It doesn't surprise me that half of these kids drop ref'ing after a year or two.


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## Toch (Oct 10, 2017)

watfly said:


> I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification.  What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games.  If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.


What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?


Monkey said:


> Sorry you are so offended.  But I was not there to see that team and I was standing in the shade when they walked over to where I was setting up my tripod.  The CR was not a teenage, probably early 20s and in my opinion it is better that I heard him and put a stop to his conversation then one of the parents on the team that he was talking negatively about.  The parents were so irate with the non-call of the hair pull down, I am not sure what would have happened if that girl's father heard him.
> 
> In my opinion it was a valuable lesson for him to shut his mouth.


He’s still a young man, who is trying to do the best he can. Seems like the valuable lesson was not only for him but for you as well. Think about it for a second.


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## baldref (Oct 10, 2017)

Toch said:


> What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?


I sincerely doubt it. Referee haters will always hate. It's a psychological issue. Something about not being breast fed I think.


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## Toch (Oct 10, 2017)

GKDad65 said:


> "We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games.  Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
> Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
> Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?
> 
> ...


If only the parents could take parenting classes before putting their kids in youth sports or before having kids for that matter. Refs, like coaches, Parents, teachers and everyone else, are trying their best. As a coach I never blame the ref, because that’s giving the kids an excuse to quit. 
Why don’t you take the internet course and show the world how it’s done?


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## watfly (Oct 10, 2017)

baldref said:


> I sincerely doubt it. Referee haters will always hate. It's a psychological issue. Something about not being breast fed I think.


I think we have finally gotten to the root of the problem...I was raised on formula.


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## watfly (Oct 10, 2017)

Toch said:


> What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?


Great question.  I don't know that it would change my opinion much regarding refs that show up unprepared to fulfill their responsibilities.  I'm a volunteer for a youth organization and I don't approach it with the mentality that I can "half ass" my commitment because I'm not getting paid.  Even though we have a difficult time finding board members, those that don't fulfill their unpaid commitment are counseled out.  Maybe what I expect from myself, is too much to expect from others.

Call me old school, but paid or unpaid, I believe you should take pride in your work and employ a work ethic that enables you to fulfill your commitment no matter how crappy the job may be.  I not a subscriber to the "new school" mentality that life shouldn't be hard and that we should have "safe spaces" to protect us from criticism, nor I'm I one to blame others for my failures to fullfill my commitments.


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## Monkey (Oct 10, 2017)

Toch said:


> What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?
> 
> 
> He’s still a young man, who is trying to do the best he can. Seems like the valuable lesson was not only for him but for you as well. Think about it for a second.


Actually he was not a young man trying to do his best and that was my point.  He saw that hair pull and did not call it as well as other fouls (from what I heard him and parents say) because he was having fun getting under the skin of the coach he did not like.  Moreover 20 somethings are adults and should not let a personal issue with a coach impact how he refs a game and endanger the safety of young girls that have nothing to do with his issue.

Moreover it was obvious that I was not an official when I made my comment to him and complemented the ARs for holding it together despite the angry parents.  My kids were not playing in that game nor the next one and eventhough I was there to help a friend on the next game no one would know which team I was with.

So to answer your question, no I did not learn anything.


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## Toch (Oct 10, 2017)

Monkey said:


> Actually he was not a young man trying to do his best and that was my point.  He saw that hair pull and did not call it as well as other fouls (from what I heard him and parents say) because he was having fun getting under the skin of the coach he did not like.  Moreover 20 somethings are adults and should not let a personal issue with a coach impact how he refs a game and endanger the safety of young girls that have nothing to do with his issue.
> 
> Moreover it was obvious that I was not an official when I made my comment to him and complemented the ARs for holding it together despite the angry parents.  My kids were not playing in that game nor the next one and eventhough I was there to help a friend on the next game no one would know which team I was with.
> 
> So to answer your question, no I did not learn anything.


If you didn’t learn anything, you wasted an excellent opportunity, which at this point makes you equal or worse than the ref you are talking about. 
Gotta learn from every experience


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## SageMajor (Oct 10, 2017)

With my association I have been contacted because of a complaint against the center, It was a stupid complaint and I was surprised that they even contacted me but I know they do get addressed.


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## Surfref (Oct 10, 2017)

watfly said:


> Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney?  Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.


There is a very complex answer to what would appear to be an easy question.  You may have out of shape younger refs (under 40y/o) that would probably prefer not to be put on a HS age games because they know that they will have trouble keeping up with play.  They are assigned to the games because there is no one else.  Then you have the out of shape older refs that were once hotshot refs, but are too conceited or vain to admit they should not be working HS age games.  They are usually put on games because there is no one else or “the good old boy network.”  The majority of assignees will avoid putting new refs in the center, until they get some experience as an AR.  

This past weekend I saw several fields with only one or two refs because there just were not enough refs.  My last game out of 5 on Saturday, which was late assignment, was a 9v9 no heading.  The field next to mine was a B18 that only had two refs.  I gave them one of my ARs.  Some of the parents complained to their coach that it was not fair that they only got two refs.  I heard the coach say to the parents, “It is not a big deal.  He is a State Referee and could do this game by himself.”  It was nice to hear the coach support a Referee, but also pointed out how clueless the parents can be when it comes to Referee Grade levels, training, and qualifications.

So, the answer to your question is yes and no.  If the parents would just cheer for their kid’s team and ignore the refs, than maybe we could get more of these younger fit refs to stick around.  We also need to get some of these older slower refs to realize they need to only work the 9v9 and 7v7 games.


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## baldref (Oct 10, 2017)

Surfref said:


> We also need to get some of these older slower refs to realize they need to only work the 9v9 and 7v7 games.


OK. OK....... I'll stick to the littles from now on.


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## Surfref (Oct 10, 2017)

MWN said:


> Referees that don't know the rules?  That is 100% on the Referee.  However, most of the time its the parents that don't know the rules "Handball, Handball!!!!! (when the ball was kicked from 4 feet away and hit a players arm in .35 seconds from when it was kicked ... dumbass parents that have no understanding what a "handling" foul is ... note, this persists at the U18 level).


I experience “Soccer stupid” parents almost every weekend.  I had a coach, B14, remove two of his parents (both dads) for yelling at me this past weekend. First dad got to leave right after kickoff.  The player thriple touched the ball on the kickoff, so I awarded an IDFK to the other team.  Dad yells, “What the F%@k are you doing? That’s a do over.”  Coach just yelled at me “I got this” and sent dad to his car far away.  The other dad got to leave after I gave a Caution (Yellow card) DOGSO (denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity).  Dad yelled at me, “Are you stupid? That was denying a goal and a red card.”  Coach said, “I got this” and sent dad to the parking lot.  After the game the coach apologized to me and said, “I wish we didn’t have any of the fathers at the games.  It would be so much quieter and enjoyable.”


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## MWN (Oct 10, 2017)

Surfref said:


> We also need to get some of these older slower refs to realize they need to only work the 9v9 and 7v7 games.


The 9v9 games (especially the 2007 - Flight 3, Presidio, Bronze) are great games to get the young, but experienced Grade 8's good center experience.  Just this last weekend my son (14) was assigned his first league center game on a 9v9, I was the AR along with a 19 year old.  Then I stepped in and centered the 2006 Flight 1 game.  We were able to give him some good feedback.  In a another year or so he will be ready to move to the U12's, then U13's and on.  Having us older guys on the small sided fields to mentor is what a good association should do.


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## Surfref (Oct 10, 2017)

baldref said:


> OK. OK....... I'll stick to the littles from now on.


In the fall I would be fine with 6-7 of those 7v7 games as a single ref every other Saturday.  $300+ and the teams get a State Ref.  Win-win for everyone.


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## MWN (Oct 10, 2017)

Surfref said:


> ... The other dad got to leave after I gave a Caution (Yellow card) DOGSO (denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity).  Dad yelled at me, “Are you stupid? That was denying a goal and a red card.”  Coach said, “I got this” and sent dad to the parking lot.  After the game the coach apologized to me and said, “I wish we didn’t have any of the fathers at the games.  It would be so much quieter and enjoyable.”


The unfortunate thing here is the next time this Dad see's a DOGSO (but outside the box) and a red card is given he is going to be so confused and probably yell and scream and kick, not realizing the triple punishment justification for yellow in the box and red outside the box.  Then when the DOGSO is for a "holding, pulling or pushing" in the box and a red card is given, the poor guy's head will explode and some kid will be fatherless.


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## Surfref (Oct 10, 2017)

MWN said:


> The unfortunate thing here is the next time this Dad see's a DOGSO (but outside the box) and a red card is given he is going to be so confused and probably yell and scream and kick, not realizing the triple punishment justification for yellow in the box and red outside the box.  Then when the DOGSO is for a "holding, pulling or pushing" in the box and a red card is given, the poor guy's head will explode and some kid will be fatherless.


So that is why we go through all of the training every year, to make the calls that will cause some Soccer Crazy dad’s head to explode.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 10, 2017)

MWN said:


> The unfortunate thing here is the next time this Dad see's a DOGSO (but outside the box) and a red card is given he is going to be so confused and probably yell and scream and kick, not realizing the triple punishment justification for yellow in the box and red outside the box.  Then when the DOGSO is for a "holding, pulling or pushing" in the box and a red card is given, the poor guy's head will explode and some kid will be fatherless.


And if you showed your post to 98% of parents, and 80% of coaches that are yelling at referees, they would have no idea what this means. 


Surfref said:


> So that is why we go through all of the training every year, to make the calls that will cause some Soccer Crazy dad’s head to explode.


Yes, that makes it all worth it!


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## TangoCity (Oct 10, 2017)

Will find out shortly if ref complaints matter.  Ref complaints with video that is!


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## Toch (Oct 11, 2017)

I love how technology make parents feel empowered... will this video show a ref who made a bad call? Spare the world those stupid videos. Instead teach the kids on how to navigate through life’s obstacles and how to deal with adversity. Teach the kids to take matters into their own hands by playing the type of game that produce results. Be positive and stop looking for excuses


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## coachrefparent (Oct 11, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Will find out shortly if ref complaints matter.  Ref complaints with video that is!


It will only matter if the referee was abusive, ignored injury or similar. If it shows an error in calling the laws, it will not matter.


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## espola (Oct 11, 2017)

Referee team may have blown a call last night, awarding Panama a phantom goal thus knocking USA out of World Cup.


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## coachrefparent (Oct 11, 2017)

espola said:


> Referee team may have blown a call last night, awarding Panama a phantom goal thus knocking USA out of World Cup.


Not may, did.


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## Fact (Oct 11, 2017)

Toch said:


> I love how technology make parents feel empowered... will this video show a ref who made a bad call? Spare the world those stupid videos. Instead teach the kids on how to navigate through life’s obstacles and how to deal with adversity. Teach the kids to take matters into their own hands by playing the type of game that produce results. Be positive and stop looking for excuses


In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report).  When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.


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## baldref (Oct 11, 2017)

Fact said:


> In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report).  When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.


no.
as i've advocated many times, if there is a referee who "allows" a game to get out of control, probably more accurately, can't stop the game from getting out of control, then there's always a coach who could pull off rowdy players, or god forbid, players themselves who could just simply play soccer and not kickbox. i have yet to see a referee injure a player. I'm not saying there isn't an instance when a small amount of culpability might be laid on a referee who doesn't take action for a very high temperature game, but at no time is a referee encouraging players to hurt each other. 

I had two injuries in a game recently. one was likely a broken wrist when a player was pushed out of bounds and fell poorly on his wrist. it was foul, not a caution, just a foul. the other injury was two players kicking the same ball very forcefully. one player had a serious knee injury from the force. was i "likely the source of mismanagement"?


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## TangoCity (Oct 11, 2017)

Fact said:


> In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report).  When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.


Yes 110%.  The ref doesn't cause a team to play dirty -- but they can enable the team to KEEP playing dirty, raising the odds of serious injury.


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## baldref (Oct 11, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Yes 110%.  The ref doesn't cause a team to play dirty -- but they can enable the team to KEEP playing dirty, raising the odds of serious injury.


enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really. 
a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.


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## TangoCity (Oct 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really.
> a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.


Oh come on.  Safe, fun, fair.  It is the duty of the referee crew to provide a safe, fun and fair game.  If the game is not safe they can talk to, caution and or remove players/coaches.  If they are unwilling to use these tools then they are ENABLING the team to keep playing dirty and become complicit in the problem -- AN UNSFAFE GAME!


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## Toch (Oct 11, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Oh come on.  Safe, fun, fair.  It is the duty of the referee crew to provide a safe, fun and fair game.  If the game is not safe they can talk to, caution and or remove players/coaches.  If they are unwilling to use these tools then they are ENABLING the team to keep playing dirty and become complicit in the problem -- AN UNSFAFE GAME!


Wow! You must’ve just learned that word from some self help book and couldn’t wait to use it


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## espola (Oct 11, 2017)

baldref said:


> enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really.
> a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.


The issue arises when the referee doesn't punish infractions and penalize misconduct.  I assume you are unfamiliar with that since it never happens in the games you referee.


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## MWN (Oct 11, 2017)

The responsibility for game play falls first on the players.  Players have a duty to play in a "careful" manner and respect their opponents.  When a player plays in a "careless" manner a foul occurs.  When a players plays in a "reckless" manner a caution should be awarded.  When a player is violent or intends to injure another player ... they are sent off.  The referee's response is reactionary to a past event.

Second, it falls on the coach.  The temperament of a team is directly proportional to the temperament of the coach.  Coaches that vocally challenge and chastise players who display careless or reckless play and support the referee crew are the good ones and fulfilling their obligation to ensure play within the rules.   Coaches that challenge referee calls (and parents) create additional motivation for the players to play in a careless and/or reckless manner.  The technical term used for these coaches and parents is "IA" (irresponsible assholes)

The referee is the last defense ... kinda like a goal keeper.  Empowered to stop the nonsense and manage the game BECAUSE the players and coaches have failed in their obligations.


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## baldref (Oct 12, 2017)

MWN said:


> The referee is the last defense ... kinda like a goal keeper. Empowered to stop the nonsense and manage the game BECAUSE the players and coaches have failed in their obligations.


and my point is, that there are no guarantees that cards, send offs, etc., cures all ills. the responsibility lies with the coaches, players, and the parents of the players. 

also, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, at younger ages, and on lower level games, the referee might not be experienced enough to know exactly how to manage thuggery.


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## baldref (Oct 12, 2017)

espola said:


> The issue arises when the referee doesn't punish infractions and penalize misconduct.  I assume you are unfamiliar with that since it never happens in the games you referee.


i assume you are unfamiliar with intelligence since you have never displayed it on these boards.


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## Surfref (Oct 12, 2017)

Fact said:


> In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report).  When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.


I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault.  Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over.  Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER.  None of them were the Referee team’s fault.

Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time.  Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2.  Completely clean play.  Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms.  No fault of the Referee.  Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf.  No fault of the referee.


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## TangoCity (Oct 12, 2017)

baldref said:


> and my point is, that there are no guarantees that cards, send offs, etc., cures all ills. the responsibility lies with the coaches, players, and the parents of the players.
> 
> also, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, at younger ages, and on lower level games, the referee might not be experienced enough to know exactly how to manage thuggery.


Of course there are no guarantees but if those tools aren't used - or used even close to correctl


Surfref said:


> I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault.  Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over.  Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER.  None of them were the Referee team’s fault.
> 
> Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time.  Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2.  Completely clean play.  Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms.  No fault of the Referee.  Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf.  No fault of the referee.


I think that is what most people are saying.  The player/coach (maybe even parent of player) is responsible for the dirty play and injury the first time.  When there are a dozen wreckless fouls with many of them bordering on violent with teammates congratulating each other for injuring players and the referee has done NOTHING other than call some of them fouls then the referee becomes complicit in the carnage.  Yes, it is not the referee slamming a players head into the ground, yes it is not the referee who throws a punch at someone's face -- but when the referee utterly fails to act on it then he/she has enabled those dirty players to continue what they are doing.  Yes, the players and teams are the ones who should be punished but that referee needs to be retrained or find another low paying hobby.


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## watfly (Oct 12, 2017)

Surfref said:


> I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault.  Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over.  Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER.  None of them were the Referee team’s fault.
> 
> Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time.  Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2.  Completely clean play.  Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms.  No fault of the Referee.  Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf.  No fault of the referee.


I don't think that anyone is saying that most injuries are the primary fault of the referee.  However, its the USSF's position that the referee's fundamental responsibility is for the safety of the players.  We have all seen refs, although, very few, that have not fulfilled that responsibility.  What I believe the non-ref posters are trying to articulate is the safety situation that you described below (emphasis added).  No one can deny that allowing nasty play can easily lead to unneeded injuries.  For me the only reason a complaint should be filed against a ref should be in those situations where the ref compromised player safety or was abusive.



Surfref said:


> After games my DD sometimes refers to college soccer as a rugby match.  DD is also a referee and she tends to blame the college refs for letting games get out of hand to the point that the players will take enforcement into their own hands.  She had a game last week that was like this.  On one play with the ball at my DD feet, the defender had a hold of her collar and was pulling back and down.  The referee had a good view of this from about 10 yards away and did not make the call.  The next thing that happened was a reminder to me that my little 5'2" daughter is not always nice and sweet.  DD sent an elbow into the defenders ribs than a straight arm to her face before the defender let go.  No call from the referee.  Most of the overly physical nasty play I have seen during college games is in a large part due to the referee not keeping the game under control and allowing the nasty play.


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## Surfref (Oct 12, 2017)

TangoCity said:


> Of course there are no guarantees but if those tools aren't used - or used even close to correctl
> 
> 
> I think that is what most people are saying.  The player/coach (maybe even parent of player) is responsible for the dirty play and injury the first time.  When there are a dozen wreckless fouls with many of them bordering on violent with teammates congratulating each other for injuring players and the referee has done NOTHING other than call some of them fouls then the referee becomes complicit in the carnage.  Yes, it is not the referee slamming a players head into the ground, yes it is not the referee who throws a punch at someone's face -- but when the referee utterly fails to act on it then he/she has enabled those dirty players to continue what they are doing.  Yes, the players and teams are the ones who should be punished but that referee needs to be retrained or find another low paying hobby.


I made $1337 last month with an average of $44 an hour.  Doesn’t sound low paying to me and it definitely is not a hobby.  The IRS auditor that reviewed my tax return two years ago refered to refereeing as a professional career since we have to be credentialed and maintain continuing education.

I will agree with you that if the Referee does not use the tools (fouls, cards, voice, advantage) at their disposal to manage the game that they are partially responsible.  The majority of the time referees do use their tools and players still act badly, but the Referee gets the blame when it should be the coach and player.  There are a few referees out there that probably should drop their whistle in the trash and go find something else to do on the weekends.  The majority, 99 percent, of refs enter the field with the intention of calling a good, safe, and competitive game.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 18, 2017)

GKDad65 said:


> "We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games.  Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
> Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
> Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, you got the customer part wrong. The player is the ustomer.


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## Just a Parent (Oct 18, 2017)

watfly said:


> According to what I've heard from quite a few coaches, ref complaints don't matter.  I think the most common response I've heard is that its a "waste of time". Why?  I can only guess because there is a shortage of refs and probably because the associations either don't have, or aren't interested in devoting, the resources to investigating ref complaints. But really is that any different to complaints about coaches? We've all seen the refs and coaches that have no business being on the pitch, but there they are week-to-week...year to year despite complaints.  Club soccer is not a customer oriented business, in fact, I don't think I've seen a business that complains about or ignores its customers more than the "service providers" within club soccer. But, hey these are 1st world problems and we love to watch our kids play.


Most coaches do not know how or what to complain about or even who to complain to. They hide their ignorance by making up stories.


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