# You make the call -  League Formation



## timbuck (Nov 1, 2016)

If you had a magic wand and could start your own club soccer league,  what would you include/not include?
Feel free to add to the list:

Promotion/Relegation
How many flights?
Limit of number of teams per flight for each club?
How many games during the season?
How many weeks would the season last?
Showcase games?
League / Flight Tournament?
Standings kept?  For all ages?
What age would it start at?
Allow players to move within the club during the season?
Transfers to other clubs during the season?
When would tryouts be held?
Coaches and parents on same sideline?
How would you enforce rules violations?
Any limit on number of teams that a coach can run?


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## younothat (Nov 2, 2016)

For 11v11 only

Promotion/Relegation: Yes

flights to be determined by who applies, just like tournaments.

No limits per flight but have to earn placement through competition.  New teams have to play-in to determine placement

Sept-Dec outdoor:  4 months season, 18 games,  league competition at the end of the seasons. 
League champions and for those teams that finished high enough qualify to move on to a regional competition like the champions league during Jan-Feb-March
Futsal /indoor league  feb-march-april; 12 games,  league competition at the end of the seasons. 

Playoff, tournment or something else besides a showcase, see above

Standings kept, starting when kids move to 11x11

Yes player passing to teams withing the club during the season

Yes transfer to other clubs during the season during set  transfer windows only.

Coaches and parents on opposite sidelines

Tryouts during a two-month period only from may-june after seasons have ended.

Limit the number of head coaching assignment to (2) for each coach with (2) possible assistant coaching assignments.    Each team must have a head and assistant coach but only one needs to be present at a time.

Roster size limited to 16 per team

One game a weekend, 4 games over a 5 day period for tournament play max with a rest after two consecutive days playing.

For the younger kids prior to 11x11 would do things differently


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## timbuck (Nov 2, 2016)

Forgot to add -  What about State Cup?


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## Laced (Nov 2, 2016)

- No promotion/relegation. Teams can move up or down a flight, with their wins or losses as one of the considerations. The main goal is to ensure all teams in a flight are of comparable strength. Players and teams improve at their own pace, not just between arbitrarily defined "seasons," so when they've improved anytime, they can move up to a higher flight. Players can switch teams anytime they want, provided that they've paid their prior club fees in full. Competition will be year round, with no defined season. The league's main purpose is to facilitate competition among teams of comparable strength.

- Silent coaching for younger age groups, U14 and younger, is strictly enforced. Coaches can sub, but no verbal instruction is allowed by coaches or parents. No score or standing is kept to make winning insignificant. Any coach or parent that lobby for a card for the opposing player will be automatically ejected and barred for a month.

- A coach can run any number of teams. But there's a smaller limit on roster size. A minimum of 2 coaches per team, and both coaches are required to be present at practice a minimum of 75% of practices. This is to ensure the proper ratio of player/coach at each practice.

- Since I have a magic wand, all clubs and teams want to remain in the league. League membership is the only way they can generate revenue.

- All age groups are rolling age groups, based on size in addition to biological age. There will be cross age group games.

- The league evaluates all coaches and clubs and give them ratings, which parents have easy access to. Evaluations are solely based on player improvement, not wins or losses.


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## timbuck (Nov 2, 2016)

I do like the coach to player ratio idea.  You can keep a practice moving with just 1 coach, but it's so much more effective if you have an extra body out there to keep kids focused.  It doesn't even need to be someone with a license or lots of experience.  Just someone to watch and correct as needed.  16 players broken up into 2 or 3 groups for small sided activities is hard to keep track of for 1 coach.


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## Mystery Train (Nov 2, 2016)

Some real out of the box thinking.  I like it.  Good thread.

Rolling age groups based on size as well as age...interesting.  Not sure how to regulate that, but hey, you've got a magic wand!


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## Daniel Miller (Nov 2, 2016)

Promotion and Relegation?  Yes, because earning is learning.
How many flights.  Depends on how many teams.
Limit of number of teams per flight for each club?  Two.
How many games during the season?  14-20, including League Cup
How many weeks would the season last?  Aug. through Mid Dec., but otherwise, year-round play.
Showcase games?  No.  These are costly, and rarely make any sense except for Jrs. and Srs. in high school.  Nothing is dumber than a BU9 "showcase" game.
League / Flight Tournament?  No.  The "open cup" format is historic and should be continued.  If you want to bracket your teams by comparative strength, then play in another tournament, instead.
Standings kept? For all ages?  Of course.  Otherwise, every game is just another practice.
What age would it start at?  U8.  Unless we start playing U7s.
Allow players to move within the club during the season?  Yes.
Transfers to other clubs during the season?  No.
When would tryouts be held?  Year round without limitation, although a roster freeze during league play.
Coaches and parents on same sideline?  Opposite sidelines.  Cuz my competitive parents might beat up your sissy parents.
How would you enforce rules violations?  As now.
Any limit on number of teams that a coach can run?  No, let the market decide.
State Cup:  As now.


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## Mystery Train (Nov 2, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Promotion and Relegation?  Yes, because earning is learning.
> How many flights.  Depends on how many teams.
> Limit of number of teams per flight for each club?  Two.
> How many games during the season?  14-20, including League Cup
> ...


I'm not a league rules expert, but other than the parents/coaches on opposite sidelines, aren't most of those things what CSL currently does?


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## Laced (Nov 2, 2016)

Mystery Train said:


> I'm not a league rules expert, but other than the parents/coaches on opposite sidelines, aren't most of those things what CSL currently does?


Another way to put it, isn't the winning-oriented approach lead us to mediocrity in the first place?


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## Daniel Miller (Nov 2, 2016)

Laced said:


> Another way to put it, isn't the winning-oriented approach lead us to mediocrity in the first place?


No, Laced, you are mistaken.  Your unstated premise is that teams who win a lot of games necessarily do not develop skilled players, who will all fall behind at the older ages.  This is all based on your personal belief, which is likely based on the personal belief and anecdotal hearsay evidence supplied to you by others.  

Nobody has ever, _and I mean never-ever_, made *any* kind of study which either proves or disproves your point.  Your opinion has no more validity than my own opinion about licorice, which is that it tastes like unscooped tar drippings.  Many would agree with both opinions, but in the end there is no proof to support either.  Not a single shred of proof.  Not even an imagined image of a shred of proof.  

I think that your handed-down opinion is based on a fiction created by losing coaches who need an excuse for their poorly-performing teams.  Saying that "winning teams" will somehow negatively affect the development of players is a way of diverting attention from the true fact: some coaches just don't know how to teach kids how to play good soccer.


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## *GOBEARGO* (Nov 2, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> No, Laced, you are mistaken.  Your unstated premise is that teams who win a lot of games necessarily do not develop skilled players, who will all fall behind at the older ages.  This is all based on your personal belief, which is likely based on the personal belief and anecdotal hearsay evidence supplied to you by others.
> 
> Nobody has ever, _and I mean never-ever_, made *any* kind of study which either proves or disproves your point.  Your opinion has no more validity than my own opinion about licorice, which is that it tastes like unscooped tar drippings.  Many would agree with both opinions, but in the end there is no proof to support either.  Not a single shred of proof.  Not even an imagined image of a shred of proof.
> 
> I think that your handed-down opinion is based on a fiction created by losing coaches who need an excuse for their poorly-performing teams.  Saying that "winning teams" will somehow negatively affect the development of players is a way of diverting attention from the true fact: some coaches just don't know how to teach kids how to play good soccer.


Think you missed the boat on what Laced was saying. If not mistaken, he was referring to 'winning' being the end all to all that's club soccer.


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## Daniel Miller (Nov 2, 2016)

*GOBEARGO* said:


> Think you missed the boat on what Laced was saying. If not mistaken, he was referring to 'winning' being the end all to all that's club soccer.


You might be right, but I was going by the gist of his other posts, all of which laud the training of individuals to create superstars, and decry the training of team-oriented play.  I wholeheartedly agree that "winning" is not the end-all-be-all of club soccer.  But winning has importance for a lot of reasons, not least that winning is fun and is the only stated object of the game.  Winning is also the only objective way to measure performance and development.


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## Laced (Nov 2, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> You might be right, but I was going by the gist of his other posts, all of which laud the training of individuals to create superstars, and decry the training of team-oriented play.  I wholeheartedly agree that "winning" is not the end-all-be-all of club soccer.  But winning has importance for a lot of reasons, not least that winning is fun and is the only stated object of the game.  Winning is also the only objective way to measure performance and development.


Again you completely missed it. I believe that an emphasis on training individual skills will lead the US out of mediocrity. Not just superstars, but _every _player, even defenders. Individual excellence has propelled our nation to prosperity unseen in human history. Our basketball dominates because we have the most skillful players that can play iso or team ball. Europeans neglects the former, very much like we neglect it in youth soccer.


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## watfly (Nov 2, 2016)

Daniel Miller said:


> Winning is also the only objective way to measure performance and development.


  It may be objective but its a very poor indicator of performance and development.  Some of the best individual and team efforts my son's team had this year were in losses.


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## Daniel Miller (Nov 2, 2016)

Laced said:


> Again you completely missed it. I believe that an emphasis on training individual skills will lead the US out of mediocrity. Not just superstars, but _every _player, even defenders. Individual excellence has propelled our nation to prosperity unseen in human history. Our basketball dominates because we have the most skillful players that can play iso or team ball. Europeans neglects the former, very much like we neglect it in youth soccer.


I guess I agree with some of your points.  All players need to be developed, and there is nothing like individual excellence across the field.  Your range of posts deemphasizes the notion of team play, and I disagree with that.  

I find dubious your comment about "individual excellence" being he linchpin for propelling "our nation to prosperity unseen in human history."  A better explanation for our arc of prosperity might be found from a reading of Jared Diamond's book _Gun, Germs and Steel_, which suggests that our easy access to the enormous untapped and cheaply obtained resources of a newly-discovered continent may have something to do with our national prosperity.  

As far as basketball is concerned, again, I believe you are off in your analysis, but I respect your questionable opinion and won't argue the point.


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## timbuck (Nov 2, 2016)

Aren't you guys having the same discussion in another thread? 
This is about league set and magic wands!!!


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## Mystery Train (Nov 2, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Aren't you guys having the same discussion in another thread?
> This is about league set and magic wands!!!


I think that was different set of yahoos.  But point taken.  Back to magic wands.

I am a proponent of fewer tournaments and no back to back Saturday Sunday games.  I think scrimmages are underrated for development.  If you had a "pre-season" where there are a 5-6 games that don't count in the final standings and then a regular season where the games count, you could get a blend of  game-play development where coaches are free to move players around spread playing time and do more evaluations and still have a season of intense competition where the players can enjoy the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat.


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## Simisoccerfan (Nov 3, 2016)

Promotion/Relegation - Modified approach.  The bottom two teams from the higher bracket and the top two teams from each of the feeder brackets (4 total) playoff in a preseason play in tournament.  Top two finishers earn the higher bracket.  This ensures the best competition in each bracket based on the actual team makeup.  Not just the previous year's results or the coaches biased opinion.

How many flights? - As many as needed.  Pyramid setup with 8 team brackets.  1 top bracket, two at the next level, then 4 brackets and on down.  14 league games with home and away against each.

Limit of number of teams per flight for each club? - Unlimited.  Teams earn placement based on performance.

How many games during the season? - 14

How many weeks would the season last? - League is finished for HS students by the end of the first week of November to allow for recovery time before HS starts.

Showcase games? - ???  Showcase is meant for college exposure.  No college coaches will come since it is also there season.  So no Showcases.  

League / Flight Tournament?- League only.  League Cup for 8th grade and down.  No League Cup for olders.  Too many games crammed in leads to injuries and just plain bad soccer.

Standings kept? For all ages? - Let's not kid ourselves.  At every age everyone knows the score and whether you won or lost.  So yes kept at all ages.  We need to get away from the idea that everyone gets a trophy.

What age would it start at? - See above.

Allow players to move within the club during the season? - Yes but limit to only playing for one team per day.

Transfers to other clubs during the season? - This only matters for League play and State Cup since you can always guest for tournaments.  Once your signed you are committed for League and State Cup.  No open transfers unless you move a set distance.  But I would allow a club to release a player at any time and at that time they could resign with another team.   So if your kid is not playing you have a way to get your kid to another team.

When would tryouts be held? - After State/National Cup.

Coaches and parents on same sideline? - Yes.  Keeping the parents under control is important.  That way the coach and manager can hear what is being said and keeps the parents from arguing.

How would you enforce rules violations? - As now.

Any limit on number of teams that a coach can run? - No.  But as a parent I would avoid having my kid on with a coach that handles more than 3 teams for sure.

Roster Size  when 11 v 11 - Through age 14 limited to 16.  15 and up raised t0 21 due to the amount of injuries that can occur but only 18 can dress.

Playing time - Through age 14 guaranteed 50% playing time.  After that time is earned.


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## Laced (Nov 3, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Forgot to add -  What about State Cup?


State/National Cup is limited to high school players. Players represent their schools. It will not only help cultivate school pride, passion, create cross town rivalries,  it'll also help expand fan base beyond just family members.


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## Bdobyns (Nov 7, 2016)

timbuck said:


> If you had a magic wand and could start your own club soccer league,  what would you include/not include?
> Feel free to add to the list:
> 
> Promotion/Relegation--Yes
> ...


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## watfly (Nov 8, 2016)

I'd like to see a league that incorporates some sportsmanship and acccountability benchmarks.

Sportsmanship: Each team would get a sportsmanship score for each game. The score would be based upon the behavior of the players, coach and parents.  The CR, the AR (on that team's side) and the opposing coach would give a score from 1-5, 5 being the best (scores less than 3 would have to be explained).  If a team accumulates two games with an average score less than 3, the team losses a home game and a point in the standings.  The teams in each bracket that have the highest sportmanship score at the end of the year would be given a points bonus and a partial refund of league fees.  Teams that have the lowest sportsmanship score may be eliminated for future consideration in the league.

Parents and coach on same side of field opposite the other team.

Ref Accountability:  Pay refs in this league more, maybe something starting at 25% more.  Each coach provides a satisfactory or unsatisfactory score for each ref.  (an unsatisfactory score would have to be explained) Accumulate two games with unanimous unsatisfactory scores results in the ref's loss of priviledges to ref in the league.

Obviously this league would be more expensive but hopefully it would attract the most disciplined teams.


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## Real Deal (Nov 8, 2016)

Mine has more to do with scheduling:

-League games end by Nov 1. No playoffs.  
-CRL concludes in November prior to Thanksgiving (if team is in it)
-State/National cup is a 3 week tournament starting the weekend after Thanksgiving. 
-ROSTER FREEZE goes until the conclusion of State/National cup (so from end of August until mid-December).
-The second half of December is BREAK.
-Teams going to Regionals are allowed to add players to their roster at this time (for injuries etc)  
-Teams that progress to Regionals/Nationals begin in mid-January. 
-Those who don't go to Vegas Cup (or Strikers or Eagles)  for FUN.
-Try-outs/trainings in February/early March.
-Everyone gets time off in Mid-March through Spring break.
-Spring leagues begin in Mid-April.  

A condensed soccer season?  What do you think?


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2016)

timbuck said:


> If you had a magic wand and could start your own club soccer league,  what would you include/not include?
> Feel free to add to the list:
> 
> Promotion/Relegation
> ...


- Definitely promotion and relegation for top and bottom 3 teams
- 4 tiers with fewer number of teams as tiers increases
- Don't care as competition of promotion and relegation will self police number of teams in each.
- 1 game per weekend and have season start in August and end in May: 10 months like DA
- League playoffs/showcase in June, like DA
- Standing kept for all ages
- Start at U8 with 7v7 and gradually increase to 11v11 by U12
- Players can move about within the club as convenient within the age but cannot play more than 1 game/weekend
- Transfer window from June~August, and December~January to any club
- Tryout held during transfer windows
- Teams on one-side and parents/family on other-side with clear neutral standoff distances between the competing teams parents.  No seating within 15 meters/yards on both directions from the center line.  Place referee table at the middle of the field to enforce.
- Rules are rules, this is a sportsman's game. Cheating results in the games being forfeit and not allowed to compete in league playoff/showcase. Have yellow card accumulation rule along with SCDSL style sub rule.
- No limit on coaches running multiple teams (its their livelihood and its not a problem now so why make it one)

National Cup that runs Feb~May, depending on the age, can go on simultaneously and scheduled around the league games.  Same with CRL which as fall, winter and spring games.


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## jrcaesar (Nov 8, 2016)

mirage said:


> - Teams on one-side and parents/family on other-side with clear neutral standoff distances between the competing teams parents. No seating within 15 meters/yards on both directions from the center line. *Place referee table at the middle of the field to enforce.*


This is a very good idea (esp. adding the table, even if empty) that could be implemented across leagues immediately.


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## watfly (Nov 8, 2016)

Teams on one-side and parents/family on other-side with clear neutral standoff distances between the competing teams parents. No seating within 15 meters/yards on both directions from the center line. *Place referee table at the middle of the field to enforce.*



jrcaesar said:


> This is a very good idea (esp. adding the table, even if empty) that could be implemented across leagues immediately.


What's the advantage to having the parents opposite the teams?  With parents and coach on same side of field opposite the other team, the coach can "control" the parents.  With parents all on one-side it makes it the responsibility of the refs to address bad parent behavior.  IMHO I don't think that should be the refs responsibility,  they should be focused on the players.


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## mirage (Nov 10, 2016)

watfly said:


> What's the advantage to having the parents opposite the teams?  ......IMHO I don't think that should be the refs responsibility,  they should be focused on the players.


Its not ref's responsibility, per sa, and is the coach's and admin's.

The advantage of using the other side is for the coaches and players.  Coaches and players don't have to listen to parents interfering playing instructions, like many parents telling their kid what and how to do during the game.  On the field, almost every player I know ignore parents voices anyway so its when they are off the field.


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## timbuck (Nov 10, 2016)

Yeah, but when parents are on the opposite sideline, they yell instructions anyway.  If the coach is on the same side as the parents at least he can tell them to shut up.


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## younothat (Nov 10, 2016)

timbuck said:


> Yeah, but when parents are on the opposite sideline, they yell instructions anyway.  If the coach is on the same side as the parents at least he can tell them to shut up.


Fewer distractions for the players & coach if speculators are on the opposite side.   The players /coaches only restricted zones help also.

The potential for conflict, (closer doesn't help) pick your sides exists, either way,  respect the game and let the kids play,  Kids shouldn't get more distracted because parents can't get along side by side.


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## watfly (Nov 10, 2016)

mirage said:


> Its not ref's responsibility, per sa, and is the coach's and admin's.
> 
> The advantage of using the other side is for the coaches and players.  Coaches and players don't have to listen to parents interfering playing instructions, like many parents telling their kid what and how to do during the game.  On the field, almost every player I know ignore parents voices anyway so its when they are off the field.


I guess I haven't seen too much of parents coaching a kid when a kid is on the bench.  I've seen significantly more coaching from parents and barking at refs when the parents are opposite the coach.  But I agree that kids tend to just block out their parents voices and coaches voices for that matter, if the ball is in play.


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## jrcaesar (Nov 11, 2016)

You would THINK being opposite from the coach would mean more parent sniping, but I've found as a referee that the opposite is true. If you have a hothead coach, the parents tend to be more vocal and disrespectful anyway (since coach doesn't take control or have concerns about this, they just follow the coach's lead) so it's actually worse when along with the same sideline with the coach. Better to keep them separate actually.

With most coaches/sidelines it's really a non-issue. So as others have written, much better to keep the players and coaches together without parents.


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## watfly (Nov 11, 2016)

jrcaesar said:


> You would THINK being opposite from the coach would mean more parent sniping, but I've found as a referee that the opposite is true. If you have a hothead coach, the parents tend to be more vocal and disrespectful anyway (since coach doesn't take control or have concerns about this, they just follow the coach's lead) so it's actually worse when along with the same sideline with the coach. Better to keep them separate actually.
> 
> With most coaches/sidelines it's really a non-issue. So as others have written, much better to keep the players and coaches together without parents.


Actually, I didn't THINK that but that's been my experience; however, you see far more games as a ref than I do.  I agree that a hot head coach would certainly defeat the purpose of having the coach on the same side as the parents.

Encouraged to hear that the sidelines have been a non-issue for you, some make it out to be an epidemic of abusive parents.


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