# Is this really what it’s like?



## Supermodel56

Just read this article and was wondering if this is really what it’s like going through the process and seeking/negotiating offers...?

https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Myth-of-the-Sports/238453/?fbclid=IwAR2qnKHQoBEV_zBuN4PfLp17C-qGJOK_X4mdfHqFMftHJpILNSdJBEpt5e0


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## gkrent

Supermodel56 said:


> Just read this article and was wondering if this is really what it’s like going through the process and seeking/negotiating offers...?
> 
> https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Myth-of-the-Sports/238453/?fbclid=IwAR2qnKHQoBEV_zBuN4PfLp17C-qGJOK_X4mdfHqFMftHJpILNSdJBEpt5e0


I think it's a little different for swimming, because as an athlete, for the most part, you have a completely objective method of determining where you stand against the other recruits (times).  I can't really speak to the process of negotiating offers because things are much different now with the new rules but I can say that the number of scholarships for women's soccer is the same as swimming so many scholarships are partial.


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## Simisoccerfan

Article seems pretty close to our actual experience.  Except the various coaches were more upfront with their financial offers.   Once my dd made her choice but before she gave her verbal offer we had a conference call with the coaches at her school of choice and negotiated with them.   That was a key step in the process.  They did end up increasing their offer from good to great.  So don't skip this step.


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## soccerobserver

Supermodel56 said:


> Just read this article and was wondering if this is really what it’s like going through the process and seeking/negotiating offers...?
> 
> https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Myth-of-the-Sports/238453/?fbclid=IwAR2qnKHQoBEV_zBuN4PfLp17C-qGJOK_X4mdfHqFMftHJpILNSdJBEpt5e0


SM56, are you looking at D1, D2, D3 or all of the above? The article does not really apply to recruiting for academic D3 colleges.


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## Supermodel56

soccerobserver said:


> SM56, are you looking at D1, D2, D3 or all of the above? The article does not really apply to recruiting for academic D3 colleges.


Primarily interested D1 schools but curious about D2 & D3...


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## soccerobserver

Supermodel56 said:


> Primarily interested D1 schools but curious about D2 & D3...


Ok great for your DD.


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## espola

Supermodel56 said:


> Just read this article and was wondering if this is really what it’s like going through the process and seeking/negotiating offers...?
> 
> https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Myth-of-the-Sports/238453/?fbclid=IwAR2qnKHQoBEV_zBuN4PfLp17C-qGJOK_X4mdfHqFMftHJpILNSdJBEpt5e0


In the midst of a discussion on bigsoccer.com over a year ago about the comings and goings of college coaches, I posted this outline of our recruiting adventure --

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-2017-18-coaches-on-the-hotseat-or-should-be-thread.2078130/page-4#post-36176398


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## espola

Supermodel56 said:


> Primarily interested D1 schools but curious about D2 & D3...


My older son was recruited to play at a D2 school.  D2 rules are a little different, so he was invited to the campus to participate in a tryout day.  That was during his first year at a community college, where he had decided not to play on the college team but instead stay with his club team then playing in Presidio at BU19 level.  His coach recommended him to the D2 school coach.  After what amounted to a semi-official visit (he worked out with the team and stayed with team members overnight, but gave us nothing for travel expenses), he was offered a roster spot and guaranteed admission, but no first-year athletic scholarship money.  

Eventually, the whole thing fell apart after the coach and the two players on the team that were my son's friends and former club teammates left the school for various reasons, so he decided not to go there.


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## Supermodel56

espola said:


> In the midst of a discussion on bigsoccer.com over a year ago about the comings and goings of college coaches, I posted this outline of our recruiting adventure --
> 
> http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-2017-18-coaches-on-the-hotseat-or-should-be-thread.2078130/page-4#post-36176398


Interesting, I can see how it’d be important to keep the relationships going due to what seems like fairly high turnover in coaches and staff. Anything can happen.

That said, if something like that happens, say a coach leaves, new coach wants to go in a different direction, do they take away entry into the school or just the $$?


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## espola

Supermodel56 said:


> Interesting, I can see how it’d be important to keep the relationships going due to what seems like fairly high turnover in coaches and staff. Anything can happen.
> 
> That said, if something like that happens, say a coach leaves, new coach wants to go in a different direction, do they take away entry into the school or just the $$?


Every situation is unique.


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## MakeAPlay

Supermodel56 said:


> Interesting, I can see how it’d be important to keep the relationships going due to what seems like fairly high turnover in coaches and staff. Anything can happen.
> 
> That said, if something like that happens, say a coach leaves, new coach wants to go in a different direction, do they take away entry into the school or just the $$?


Pick the school, not the coach and definitely not the soccer!!


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## Supermodel56

MakeAPlay said:


> Pick the school, not the coach and definitely not the soccer!!


Agreed - but I guess that's what I'm asking. if that's the school you want to attend, but coach changes mind, gets fired, whatever, can you still attend or would you be likely to lose admission and/or be forced to go through the standard admissions process? 

For example - DD gets a verbal offer from her #1 choice with money. She would want to go to this school regardless but getting to play and the $$ is icing on the cake. Partway through junior year, coach leaves/gets fired, whatever. New coach wants to build team his way and DD isn't what he's looking for. I can imagine he'll rescind the $, but is he likely to still make the request for her to be admitted to the school if she still wants to attend or is she totally screwed?


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## MakeAPlay

Supermodel56 said:


> Agreed - but I guess that's what I'm asking. if that's the school you want to attend, but coach changes mind, gets fired, whatever, can you still attend or would you be likely to lose admission and/or be forced to go through the standard admissions process?
> 
> For example - DD gets a verbal offer from her #1 choice with money. She would want to go to this school regardless but getting to play and the $$ is icing on the cake. Partway through junior year, coach leaves/gets fired, whatever. New coach wants to build team his way and DD isn't what he's looking for. I can imagine he'll rescind the $, but is he likely to still make the request for her to be admitted to the school if she still wants to attend or is she totally screwed?


It depends upon the school and the coach.  I know that in the PAC 12 and Big Ten the scholarships are 4 year deals that cannot be canceled by a new coach.  Those are clearly the two most student-centric conferences.

Good luck to you and your player.


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## Zerodenero

MakeAPlay said:


> Pick the school, not the coach and definitely not the soccer!!


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## Zerodenero

Supermodel56 said:


> Primarily interested D1 schools but curious about D2 & D3...


Good idea to look into because if your player is going with the theory of school first, soccer program 2nd. D2’s & 3’s are legit......Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Pomona Colleges and MIT and many others. Those programs froth at the mouth over getting SoCal players.


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## Supermodel56

Zerodenero said:


> Good idea to look into because if your player is going with the theory of school first, soccer program 2nd. D2’s & 3’s are legit......Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Pomona Colleges and MIT and many others. Those programs froth at the mouth over getting SoCal players.


Definitely a lot to think about... certainly some good schools in there... will have to check out their programs! while soccer is secondary to academics, it’s still very important to her and wants to play at the highest level as possible... will just have to see where this lands...


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## CaliKlines

Supermodel56 said:


> Definitely a lot to think about... certainly some good schools in there... will have to check out their programs! while soccer is secondary to academics, it’s still very important to her and wants to play at the highest level as possible... will just have to see where this lands...


My daughter had some great conversations with Yon Struble at D3 Carnegie Mellon before deciding to continue her education at NC State. He seemed like a high quality person, and CMU provides a very high level experience in the classroom and on the pitch. Now with Chris Moraga (from Whittier College) as the full-time assistant, they continue to have an outstanding program. And their Engineering School and CIS departments are tops in the country.


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## mirage

Zerodenero said:


> Good idea to look into because if your player is going with the theory of school first, soccer program 2nd. D2’s & 3’s are legit......Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Pomona Colleges and MIT and many others. Those programs froth at the mouth over getting SoCal players.


Agree but with a caveat.  The student athlete has to have "most" of what their general student population credentials too.

In other words, schools like MIT and CalTech require the player to be essentially admitted without the sports.  Since they both are D3, there is no athletic money and in the case of MIT, the only offset is needs based.  As for Caltech, they admit roughly 300 students (incoming freshman) a year so what you'll find is that the large percentage of their students are also athletes (true for MIT also).

Schools like Johns Hopkins, are not as well off as MITs of the world in terms of endowments and their threshold for tuition offset vs income is much lower.  At most Ivy's, the offset can be seen til about $240k/yr for household but for JH, CMUs of the world, that equivalent number is around $100k/yr, the last time I was talking to one of the parents of JH student (they paid full fare $65k/yr).

The equation is not just D1 vs D2/3/NAIA, or sports 1st vs academic 1st; rather, its both of those things AND family affordability for not having scholarship options, depending on the school chosen.  Ivy's have neither athletic or academic scholarships - only needs based and they are D1, whereas Stanford has all three components.


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## mirage

Supermodel56 said:


> ....... while soccer is secondary to academics, it’s still very important to her and wants to play at the highest level as possible...


Keep in mind that at D1/2 schools, there are in-season and off-season programs that occupies fairly large chunk of their time.  While the hours spent officially are regulated by NCAA and in some leagues, there are more stringent league limits than NCAA for off-season rules, there are plenty of non-official and voluntary activities that student athletes are faced with.

The nice thing about D3 schools is that their offseason program is all voluntary (because NCAA doesn't allow them, I think...) and students are allowed to be students at least the half of the academic year.  The time away from organized practices and training are very valuable part of the students maturity process and academic progress, including participating in other commitments (e.g., coop projects with companies, in-term internships and so on).

I think perspective is extremely important for parents of student athletes.  Just as when our kids were U8 and we focused on development and raising our kids.  My belief is that, at least through undergrad, we help our kids not lose sight of what's really important in life, say 10 years from now. If that answer happens to be a professional soccer player or coach, that's one answer.  If it having a professional career in a chosen field of study that you're attending the school for, then its another answer.  Its only human nature to react to what seems most important now with little to no regards towards the big picture, especially when we're young.  But ymmv!


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## Supermodel56

mirage said:


> Keep in mind that at D1/2 schools, there are in-season and off-season programs that occupies fairly large chunk of their time.  While the hours spent officially are regulated by NCAA and in some leagues, there are more stringent league limits than NCAA for off-season rules, there are plenty of non-official and voluntary activities that student athletes are faced with.
> 
> The nice thing about D3 schools is that their offseason program is all voluntary (because NCAA doesn't allow them, I think...) and students are allowed to be students at least the half of the academic year.  The time away from organized practices and training are very valuable part of the students maturity process and academic progress, including participating in other commitments (e.g., coop projects with companies, in-term internships and so on).
> 
> I think perspective is extremely important for parents of student athletes.  Just as when our kids were U8 and we focused on development and raising our kids.  My belief is that, at least through undergrad, we help our kids not lose sight of what's really important in life, say 10 years from now. If that answer happens to be a professional soccer player or coach, that's one answer.  If it having a professional career in a chosen field of study that you're attending the school for, then its another answer.  Its only human nature to react to what seems most important now with little to no regards towards the big picture, especially when we're young.  But ymmv!


Really great point you bring up... are summer work/career related internships possible while playing for a D1 school given training schedules?


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## MakeAPlay

Supermodel56 said:


> Really great point you bring up... are summer work/career related internships possible while playing for a D1 school given training schedules?


Yes my daughter starts one soon.  Girls can have it all if they really want it!!


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## Coachmom3

Second semester works for an internship but practically impossible first semester.


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## Supermodel56

Coachmom3 said:


> Second semester works for an internship but practically impossible first semester.


How about summer? Is international internship possible?


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## Zerodenero

CaliKlines said:


> My daughter had some great conversations with Yon Struble at D3 Carnegie Mellon before deciding to continue her education at NC State. He seemed like a high quality person, and CMU provides a very high level experience in the classroom and on the pitch. Now with Chris Moraga (from Whittier College) as the full-time assistant, they continue to have an outstanding program. And their Engineering School and CIS departments are tops in the country.


Totally agree w/u Cali.

Does that make us friends?


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## gkrent

Supermodel56 said:


> Really great point you bring up... are summer work/career related internships possible while playing for a D1 school given training schedules?


Yes, but only with companies willing to do short term internships with flexible schedules.    For example my D1  player is interested in business and management consulting.  So far no big firm will take her as an intern because she’s not available all summer, but she’s been lucky to get some short term gigs with some more boutique  hedge funds the last two summers.  I guess it depends on the field your player is interested.  Tech internships tend to be a bit more flexible.


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## mirage

Two key things.  One, the time available, and the other is employer willingness.

Time first.  Some schools are on semester, and others are on quarter system.  Semester schools are out well before before Memorial Day, whereas quarter schools are in session until mid June.

Soccer players report early August so easy to do the math.  The semester players have about 10 weeks and quarter players have about 6 weeks at the most.  From employer perspective, 6 weeks is on the short side.  At my old employer (Fortune 20 sized company), we'd fly students from all over the country and house them for summer internships, then rotate them through different areas of business with report out to executive management in mid August.  Internship ran from June to mid August.  Clearly this is just one example but many large companies operate similarly.  Smaller companies probably not.

The other is the employer willingness.  If they like the person and believe he/she is a hi-potential perspective employee, then of course they will take the player.  So its individual based and case-by-case.  Its difficult to generalize.  gkrent mentioned the kid wanting to do management consulting, some of those companies will take on athletes more than others.  I know, personally, that companies like Bain and McKinsey see high value from academically excellent student athletes from well known schools.

As for international exposure, its complicated because of work visa issue for ordinary foreigners but you have to look at their business context and what type of internship they are looking for to fill.


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## Supermodel56

mirage said:


> Two key things.  One, the time available, and the other is employer willingness.
> 
> Time first.  Some schools are on semester, and others are on quarter system.  Semester schools are out well before before Memorial Day, whereas quarter schools are in session until mid June.
> 
> Soccer players report early August so easy to do the math.  The semester players have about 10 weeks and quarter players have about 6 weeks at the most.  From employer perspective, 6 weeks is on the short side.  At my old employer (Fortune 20 sized company), we'd fly students from all over the country and house them for summer internships, then rotate them through different areas of business with report out to executive management in mid August.  Internship ran from June to mid August.  Clearly this is just one example but many large companies operate similarly.  Smaller companies probably not.
> 
> The other is the employer willingness.  If they like the person and believe he/she is a hi-potential perspective employee, then of course they will take the player.  So its individual based and case-by-case.  Its difficult to generalize.  gkrent mentioned the kid wanting to do management consulting, some of those companies will take on athletes more than others.  I know, personally, that companies like Bain and McKinsey see high value from academically excellent student athletes from well known schools.
> 
> As for international exposure, its complicated because of work visa issue for ordinary foreigners but you have to look at their business context and what type of internship they are looking for to fill.


Thanks mirage! So once the players report in August, what’s their schedule like? Are they pretty much training all day?

I can imagine how this can get challenging... guess it’s the same with part time jobs during the year? Imagine outside of training, probably just have enough time to study and get their projects done? How do they make this work?


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## push_up

Supermodel56 said:


> Thanks mirage! So once the players report in August, what’s their schedule like? Are they pretty much training all day?
> 
> I can imagine how this can get challenging... guess it’s the same with part time jobs during the year? Imagine outside of training, probably just have enough time to study and get their projects done? How do they make this work?


Have you heard of youtube? They have videos you can watch.


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## Zerodenero

push_up said:


> Have you heard of youtube? They have videos you can watch.



Push, is that your player?


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## Supermodel56

push_up said:


> Have you heard of youtube? They have videos you can watch.


Watched the video... yikes, she sure doesn’t sound too enthusiastic... also, does she ever study or actually take classes?


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## Zerodenero

Supermodel56 said:


> Watched the video... yikes, she sure doesn’t sound too enthusiastic... also, does she ever study or actually take classes?


I held off going there, but since you did.....

Thought it was a nice, well meaning vid, and it might very well be the reality for that player/in her program. Not the same for my kid/her teammates, other teams in her conference & other academic uni’s/colleges as they have similar soccer commitments/obligations, but they’re also slammed with classes, labs, academic obligations, trying to fit in a balanced (due to time) meal and also trying to sprinkle in a dealing A smidge is rest/sleep...during the season. Life of the bonafide “Student-athlete” gets real....real quick.


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## Supermodel56

Zerodenero said:


> I held off going there, but since you did.....
> 
> Thought it was a nice, well meaning vid, and it might very well be the reality for that player/in her program. Not the same for my kid/her teammates, other teams in her conference & other academic uni’s/colleges as they have similar soccer commitments/obligations, but they’re also slammed with classes, labs, academic obligations, trying to fit in a balanced (due to time) meal and also trying to sprinkle in a dealing A smidge is rest/sleep...during the season. Life of the bonafide “Student-athlete” gets real....real quick.


I started watching a few others and while you could see the difference between programs, the one thing that stood out was this: if nothing else, these student athletes will come out of college learning the critical skill of time management... hopefully, also taking care of their bodies. =)


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## Zerodenero

Supermodel56 said:


> Watched the video... yikes, she sure doesn’t sound too enthusiastic... also, does she ever study or actually take classes?


We may have  jumped the gun. The clip was probably taken in june/aug when players report a month or so before classes actually start.


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## gkrent

Zerodenero said:


> We may have  jumped the gun. The clip was probably taken in june/aug when players report a month or so before classes actually start.


Why not summer classes?


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## pulguita

MakeAPlay said:


> Pick the school, not the coach and definitely not the soccer!!


Yes cause things can not always go as planned:
Freshman year - Strained MCL missed 9 games won a Natty
Sophmore year - Lisfranc injury WPSL Game - redshirt
Junior year - DL Shoulder WPSL game - played in 18 NCAA games , DL Shoulder again Oregon State - Labrum Surgery Dec
Senior year - Cleared May 13, May 19 WPSL Game 93 minute broken Fib damaged ankle - surgery Thursday -  season -  unknown?
Degree Dec 2019
Every thing for a reason we know.


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## surfrider

Jeez. That’s a bummer  not exactly the path you probably imagined. Hope she heals in time for her senior season


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## MakeAPlay

pulguita said:


> Yes cause things can not always go as planned:
> Freshman year - Strained MCL missed 9 games won a Natty
> Sophmore year - Lisfranc injury WPSL Game - redshirt
> Junior year - DL Shoulder WPSL game - played in 18 NCAA games , DL Shoulder again Oregon State - Labrum Surgery Dec
> Senior year - Cleared May 13, May 19 WPSL Game 93 minute broken Fib damaged ankle - surgery Thursday -  season -  unknown?
> Degree Dec 2019
> Every thing for a reason we know.


Sorry to hear that.  I hope that she heals quickly.  My kid graduates next month and was very lucky to only miss one game her first 3 years.  Picking the school is always the best idea.


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## pulguita

MakeAPlay said:


> Sorry to hear that.  I hope that she heals quickly.  My kid graduates next month and was very lucky to only miss one game her first 3 years.  Picking the school is always the best idea.


Thanks man.


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## outside!

pulquita,

Best of luck to her. College soccer can definitely be scary. DD just finished her freshman year and it was mind blowing how many injuries there were on the team through the year. At one of their spring games they only had 3 subs. The advice by many over the years on the forum that picking the right school is the most important factor is spot on.


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## Sheriff Joe

pulguita said:


> Yes cause things can not always go as planned:
> Freshman year - Strained MCL missed 9 games won a Natty
> Sophmore year - Lisfranc injury WPSL Game - redshirt
> Junior year - DL Shoulder WPSL game - played in 18 NCAA games , DL Shoulder again Oregon State - Labrum Surgery Dec
> Senior year - Cleared May 13, May 19 WPSL Game 93 minute broken Fib damaged ankle - surgery Thursday -  season -  unknown?
> Degree Dec 2019
> Every thing for a reason we know.


That is one hela injury report, sucks.


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## CaliKlines

Pulguita, did your player get injured much during her club days, or has it all been a streak of bad luck during the college/WPSL days?


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## pulguita

CaliKlines said:


> Pulguita, did your player get injured much during her club days, or has it all been a streak of bad luck during the college/WPSL days?


Bad luck college. Minor stuff club, pulled muscles, bumps and bruises, hip flexor stuff, seaver syndrome.  Nothing like this bs.


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## oh canada

pulguita said:


> Bad luck college. Minor stuff club, pulled muscles, bumps and bruises, hip flexor stuff, seaver syndrome.  Nothing like this bs.


when i read about experiences like this, makes me wonder whether D3 shorter season is the way to go?  Hope she overcomes and thrives.


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## Multi Sport

pulguita said:


> Yes cause things can not always go as planned:
> Freshman year - Strained MCL missed 9 games won a Natty
> Sophmore year - Lisfranc injury WPSL Game - redshirt
> Junior year - DL Shoulder WPSL game - played in 18 NCAA games , DL Shoulder again Oregon State - Labrum Surgery Dec
> Senior year - Cleared May 13, May 19 WPSL Game 93 minute broken Fib damaged ankle - surgery Thursday -  season -  unknown?
> Degree Dec 2019
> Every thing for a reason we know.


That's crazy. Hopefully she heals up and has no nagging injuries to carry with after after college.

My DD is done, graduated last month. She suffered a concussion her Jr. year that kept her out most of league play but said that there was rarely a game that she wasn't playing with some sort of pain. She made good friends with the training staff as she would get wrapped up before every game and ice wraps after.

All these girls are BA's in my eyes...


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