# Re-entry



## surfertwins

Quick question.. U14 has unlimited substitutions with re-entry over 3 instances with half time not counting as a instance..  Correct?

So a young lady could exit and enter a game in the same half.. Correct?

Cheers


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## Soccerfan2

surfertwins said:


> Quick question.. U14 has unlimited substitutions with re-entry over 3 instances with half time not counting as a instance..  Correct?
> 
> So a young lady could exit and enter a game in the same half.. Correct?
> 
> Cheers


Correct


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## Kicker4Life

My understanding is no re-entry in the same half.  But I do know there were appeals for change that may or may not be under consideration.


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## timbuck

No re-entry for any youth soccer league is stupid.


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## Simisoccerfan

timbuck said:


> No re-entry for any youth soccer league is stupid.


I completely disagree with your comment.  I have seen many games through years with and without re-entry rules.   In almost all cases the kids at the end of the bench don't get a lot of playing time.  With open substitution you often seen the coach put in a kid for a few minutes and as soon as they make one mistake they are subbed out of the game.   Now I know you are going to say that this allows the coach to instruct the kid but that is one of things that is wrong with youth soccer.   The game itself should be instructing the kid and they should be encouraged to make mistakes and try things out in the game environment without fear of being subbed out.  Soccer is like a very complex puzzle and it takes a lot of trial and error during a game to figure out how to win.  Limited subbing and no re-entry encourages kids to be creative and make mistakes since they know the coach can't just yank them out.


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## timbuck

I can totally see your point.  I get it.
I'm more concerned about injury /fatigue.
Example:  I have a player coming back from an ankle injury.  We play 40 minute halves.  No re-entry in the first half.
I start her on the bench.  I put her in with 20 minutes left in the 1st half. She plays 5 minutes and her ankle is really bothering her.  Maybe she's not ready.  Maybe she got kicked.  Regardless-  I'd rather not tell her to suck it up and play through it during the 1st game of the season.  But I have already subbed her and the other 3 players on my bench into the game.  They can't go back on until halftime.  And I'd rather not wait until only 5 minutes left in the half and save a sub in case this player can't go for more than 5 minutes.  

With these rules, some kids will play the full 80 minutes.  I'm not sure that's a great idea.  We are talking about kids in the middle of puberty with lots of changes happening in their body.  Girl has a major growth spurt over the summer.  Grows 3 inches and gains 20 pounds.   Imagine the impact on a body that is used to running / playing at a certain pace but now she has increased her body weight by 20% from 100lbs to 120lbs.  You try to run a 5k at 175 pounds. And then go out 4 weeks later and run it at 210.  You won't like the results and you'll be a lot more sore at 210. 

A coach being a jerk will be a jerk regardless of the substitution rules.  That same guy will sub every 20 seconds when holding onto a 1 goal lead with 4 minutes left.


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## Simisoccerfan

timbuck said:


> I can totally see your point.  I get it.
> I'm more concerned about injury /fatigue.
> Example:  I have a player coming back from an ankle injury.  We play 40 minute halves.  No re-entry in the first half.
> I start her on the bench.  I put her in with 20 minutes left in the 1st half. She plays 5 minutes and her ankle is really bothering her.  Maybe she's not ready.  Maybe she got kicked.  Regardless-  I'd rather not tell her to suck it up and play through it during the 1st game of the season.  But I have already subbed her and the other 3 players on my bench into the game.  They can't go back on until halftime.  And I'd rather not wait until only 5 minutes left in the half and save a sub in case this player can't go for more than 5 minutes.
> 
> With these rules, some kids will play the full 80 minutes.  I'm not sure that's a great idea.  We are talking about kids in the middle of puberty with lots of changes happening in their body.  Girl has a major growth spurt over the summer.  Grows 3 inches and gains 20 pounds.   Imagine the impact on a body that is used to running / playing at a certain pace but now she has increased her body weight by 20% from 100lbs to 120lbs.  You try to run a 5k at 175 pounds. And then go out 4 weeks later and run it at 210.  You won't like the results and you'll be a lot more sore at 210.
> 
> A coach being a jerk will be a jerk regardless of the substitution rules.  That same guy will sub every 20 seconds when holding onto a 1 goal lead with 4 minutes left.


Okay I see your point.  But looking at both your examples in the first you can always pull the player and if your out of subs play with 10 for a few minutes.  Pull a striker back on D and work on your defense.  Or maybe just not play that girl and give her more time to recover.  In the second example, if a girl is not fit you should not be counting on her to play 80 minutes.  In another few years you will be playing 90 minute games.   Unless your have a very entry level team, most teams have plenty of players that have the endurance to play a full game.


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## Eagle33

timbuck said:


> I can totally see your point.  I get it.
> I'm more concerned about injury /fatigue.
> Example:  I have a player coming back from an ankle injury.  We play 40 minute halves.  No re-entry in the first half.
> I start her on the bench.  I put her in with 20 minutes left in the 1st half. She plays 5 minutes and her ankle is really bothering her.  Maybe she's not ready.  Maybe she got kicked.  Regardless-  I'd rather not tell her to suck it up and play through it during the 1st game of the season.  But I have already subbed her and the other 3 players on my bench into the game.  They can't go back on until halftime.  And I'd rather not wait until only 5 minutes left in the half and save a sub in case this player can't go for more than 5 minutes.
> 
> With these rules, some kids will play the full 80 minutes.  I'm not sure that's a great idea.  We are talking about kids in the middle of puberty with lots of changes happening in their body.  Girl has a major growth spurt over the summer.  Grows 3 inches and gains 20 pounds.   Imagine the impact on a body that is used to running / playing at a certain pace but now she has increased her body weight by 20% from 100lbs to 120lbs.  You try to run a 5k at 175 pounds. And then go out 4 weeks later and run it at 210.  You won't like the results and you'll be a lot more sore at 210.
> 
> A coach being a jerk will be a jerk regardless of the substitution rules.  That same guy will sub every 20 seconds when holding onto a 1 goal lead with 4 minutes left.


Don't compare DA rules with SCDSL. 
In DA there is no re-entry in either halves and you have only 3 times during the match to make a substitution. Now you can sub 3-4 players at once and it counts as 1 time. Once player is substituted he/she can not come back to play (unless it's due to injury evaluation)

Back to original question. Unlimited Substitutions don't mean you can sub and come back. All it means is you can play all your players on the roster and sub them in during 3 "moments" during the match or during half time, which doesn't count as the moment.


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## Kicker4Life

timbuck said:


> I can totally see your point.  I get it.
> I'm more concerned about injury /fatigue.
> Example:  I have a player coming back from an ankle injury.  We play 40 minute halves.  No re-entry in the first half.
> I start her on the bench.  I put her in with 20 minutes left in the 1st half. She plays 5 minutes and her ankle is really bothering her.  Maybe she's not ready.  Maybe she got kicked.  Regardless-  I'd rather not tell her to suck it up and play through it during the 1st game of the season.  But I have already subbed her and the other 3 players on my bench into the game.  They can't go back on until halftime.  And I'd rather not wait until only 5 minutes left in the half and save a sub in case this player can't go for more than 5 minutes.
> 
> With these rules, some kids will play the full 80 minutes.  I'm not sure that's a great idea.  We are talking about kids in the middle of puberty with lots of changes happening in their body.  Girl has a major growth spurt over the summer.  Grows 3 inches and gains 20 pounds.   Imagine the impact on a body that is used to running / playing at a certain pace but now she has increased her body weight by 20% from 100lbs to 120lbs.  You try to run a 5k at 175 pounds. And then go out 4 weeks later and run it at 210.  You won't like the results and you'll be a lot more sore at 210.
> 
> A coach being a jerk will be a jerk regardless of the substitution rules.  That same guy will sub every 20 seconds when holding onto a 1 goal lead with 4 minutes left.


You’re really digging deep to find the examples, but the answer to you “injury” question is easy. My DD (a DA player) sprained her ankle pretty bad this past Spring. After the Dr cleared her to play, she was held out of the next 2 games because the Coach felt she was not yet at 100%. He then played her in the last 15 min of the next 2 games.  When he saw what he needed to see out of her in Practice and the limited game time, she got her starting role back in the last games.  In short, good Coaches won’t play a player unless they have no question about their physical status, mainly because of the No are-Entry rule.


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## LASTMAN14

Kicker4Life said:


> You’re really digging deep to find the examples, but the answer to you “injury” question is easy. My DD (a DA player) sprained her ankle pretty bad this past Spring. After the Dr cleared her to play, she was held out of the next 2 games because the Coach felt she was not yet at 100%. He then played her in the last 15 min of the next 2 games.  When he saw what he needed to see out of her in Practice and the limited game time, she got her starting role back in the last games.  In short, good Coaches won’t play a player unless they have no question about their physical status, mainly because of the No are-Entry rule.


I was there watching that game. The way in which her injury occurred looked awful from afar. Glad it was not as serious as it looked.
Your example is definitely one often seen at the professional level.


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## Kicker4Life

LASTMAN14 said:


> I was there watching that game. The way in which her injury occurred looked awful from afar. Glad it was not as serious as it looked.
> Your example is definitely one often seen at the professional level.


Thx Lastman. I honestly believe all her side training at GR helped prevent it from being worse than it could have been.  I also credit them with getting her back so quickly.


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## MarkM

timbuck said:


> I can totally see your point.  I get it.
> I'm more concerned about injury /fatigue.
> Example:  I have a player coming back from an ankle injury.  We play 40 minute halves.  No re-entry in the first half.
> I start her on the bench.  I put her in with 20 minutes left in the 1st half. She plays 5 minutes and her ankle is really bothering her.  Maybe she's not ready.  Maybe she got kicked.  Regardless-  I'd rather not tell her to suck it up and play through it during the 1st game of the season.  But I have already subbed her and the other 3 players on my bench into the game.  They can't go back on until halftime.  And I'd rather not wait until only 5 minutes left in the half and save a sub in case this player can't go for more than 5 minutes.
> 
> With these rules, some kids will play the full 80 minutes.  I'm not sure that's a great idea.  We are talking about kids in the middle of puberty with lots of changes happening in their body.  Girl has a major growth spurt over the summer.  Grows 3 inches and gains 20 pounds.   Imagine the impact on a body that is used to running / playing at a certain pace but now she has increased her body weight by 20% from 100lbs to 120lbs.  You try to run a 5k at 175 pounds. And then go out 4 weeks later and run it at 210.  You won't like the results and you'll be a lot more sore at 210.
> 
> A coach being a jerk will be a jerk regardless of the substitution rules.  That same guy will sub every 20 seconds when holding onto a 1 goal lead with 4 minutes left.


Why would you sub her in the first half if she is injured?  Why wouldn’t you play her in the second half?  That’s not really a hard problem to resolve.  Regardless, playing down a girl for a few minutes shouldn’t be an issue.

Watch the Stanford/NC game.  You think that NC’s hockey line substitutions and crazy pressing don’t contribute to injuries?

BTW - cross country runners in HS have no real issues with growth spurts.


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## espola

We should stop worrying about what to do about bad coaches and instead worry about what we can do to make good coaches' jobs easier.


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## timbuck

MarkM said:


> Why would you sub her in the first half if she is injured?  Why wouldn’t you play her in the second half?  That’s not really a hard problem to resolve.  Regardless, playing down a girl for a few minutes shouldn’t be an issue.
> 
> Watch the Stanford/NC game.  You think that NC’s hockey line substitutions and crazy pressing don’t contribute to injuries?
> 
> *BTW - cross country runners in HS have no real issues with growth spurts*.


They don't?
https://coachdeanhebert.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/how-much-running-is-too-much-for-high-school-runners/
https://commons.pacificu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1003&context=ptfac
http://www.stelizabeth.com/healthyheadlines/cross-country-injuries/
https://www.anklefootmd.com/3-injuries-that-effect-cross-country-and-track-athletes/

Aren't we training most of our kids to play in college anyway?

I guess in this case -  I wouldn't play her in the 1st half.  Which is why the rule is silly.
There is likely is no scientific evidence to say that the re-entry restrictions have anything to do with the increased incidence of ACL and other issues that cause surgery.
But it sure seems that there has been an increase in these types of injuries lately.  I know 3 players in their junior year of HS that have had recent ACL surgery.  I'm all for trying to keep kids healthy.  An ACL issue might be from a freak accident or non-contact.  However, I tend to believe that overuse leads to more injuries.
And I'm not necessarily talking about 18 year old players at the DA level.  The re-entry restrictions in SCDSL start at the 2005 age group (once per half).  Then at 2004 its "none in the 1st half, once in the 2nd).   Coast has no re-entry restrictions at any age.


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## Simisoccerfan

One way to avoid initial or reoccurring ACL injury is for players to maintain fitness and training schedules throughout the season. Focusing on strength and conditioning of a player’s core, hip and thigh muscles in relation to common soccer movements will help players avoid initial injury as well as re-injury to an ACL.  https://www.hss.edu/playbook/top-3-reasons-soccer-players-are-at-risk-for-acl-injuries

It's not overuse, its misuse.  Kids need a higher practice to game ratio with more fitness training and strength and conditioning training as mentioned above.  So the issue is not playing 80 or 90 minutes of a game but what the kid does all week long to prepare themselves to play that amount of time.


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## Real Deal

Simisoccerfan said:


> One way to avoid initial or reoccurring ACL injury is for players to maintain fitness and training schedules throughout the season. Focusing on strength and conditioning of a player’s core, hip and thigh muscles in relation to common soccer movements will help players avoid initial injury as well as re-injury to an ACL.  https://www.hss.edu/playbook/top-3-reasons-soccer-players-are-at-risk-for-acl-injuries
> 
> It's not overuse, its misuse.  Kids need a higher practice to game ratio with more fitness training and strength and conditioning training as mentioned above.  So the issue is not playing 80 or 90 minutes of a game but what the kid does all week long to prepare themselves to play that amount of time.


I've heard of several of these injuries occurring in practice, not necessarily at games.  It's become an epidemic on the girls' side.  I don't have the answer as to why.


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## Kicker4Life

Real Deal said:


> I've heard of several of these injuries occurring in practice, not necessarily at games.  Also have heard of girls who have been doing huge amounts of fitness and core-- as well as specifically ACL "prevention"-- and still getting torn ACLs.  It's become an epidemic on the girls' side.  I don't have the answer as to why.


Women are prone to ACL injury, period.  Ask your local physician and they will tell you. Boys train the same amount and you don’t see it as much of an “epidemic”.  

Let’s not fan the flames with dramatic narrative .


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## Real Deal

Kicker4Life said:


> Women are prone to ACL injury, period.  Ask your local physician and they will tell you. Boys train the same amount and you don’t see it as much of an “epidemic”.
> 
> Let’s not fan the flames with dramatic narrative .


I've heard of five young women in the last month or so, who play SOCCER at high level, tearing their ACLs...  And I don't know that many people.  I've heard of girls who have been on DA, ECNL, and college teams, so it's not about any particular league or method. I don't know of many girls who are dancers, basketball, volleyball, or softball players who have torn their ACLs.  So to chalk it up to "girls tear their ACLs a lot" seems a dangerous denial of what seems to be a growing problem within this sport.  Why not try to find a solution?


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## Kicker4Life

Real Deal said:


> I've heard of five young women in the last month or so, who play SOCCER at high level, tearing their ACLs...  And I don't know that many people.  I've heard of girls who have been on DA, ECNL, and college teams, so it's not about any particular league or method. I don't know of many girls who are dancers, basketball, volleyball, or softball players who have torn their ACLs.  So to chalk it up to "girls tear their ACLs a lot" seems a dangerous denial of what seems to be a growing problem within this sport.  Why not try to find a solution?


It’s not denial. But I don’t think an antagonist such as yourself  is grasping that. Women are prone to ACL tears, that’s more of a call for awareness and prevention than anything really.


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## timbuck

I didn’t know any girls growing up with ACL tears.  
They played basketball, soccer, volleyball, softball and ran track.


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## LASTMAN14

timbuck said:


> I didn’t know any girls growing up with ACL tears.
> They played basketball, soccer, volleyball, softball and ran track.


Players play year round unlike when we played at this age.
Thus sports like soccer are no longer seasonal.
This gives players more opportunities to tear an ACL.


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## Kicker4Life

LASTMAN14 said:


> Players play year round unlike when we played at this age.
> Thus sports like soccer are no longer seasonal.
> This gives players more opportunities to tear an ACL.


More kids playing as well....


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## LASTMAN14

Kicker4Life said:


> More kids playing as well....


Very true. And more documentation and tracking than ever before.


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## Simisoccerfan

Maybe you should encourage your kids to quite sports and take up debate or chess.  Girls are more susceptible to ACL injuries naturally and thus need to keep up their fitness do specific strength and conditioning training.  The answer is not to sit on the bench more.


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## sdb

Sport specificity / lack of cross training and lack of adequate rest and recovery (10-11 month seasons, multiple games on weekends) definitely are a contributing factor. Others have cited the ACL specific training regimes which seem to be the current best mitigation.


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## Enjoy the ride

I remember reading an article that another problem that contributes to girls having a lot of knee/ankle injuries is they try to stay upright when they get hit. Apparently, that is more jarring to their knees/ankles and they would be better off falling down AND learning how to fall down. I guess boys are more likely to go down when hit/know how to fall correctly. I know that sounds weird but apparently it's true.


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## younothat

Enjoy the ride said:


> I remember reading an article that another problem that contributes to girls having a lot of knee/ankle injuries is they try to stay upright when they get hit. Apparently, that is more jarring to their knees/ankles and they would be better off falling down AND learning how to fall down. I guess boys are more likely to go down when hit/know how to fall correctly. I know that sounds weird but apparently it's true.


Do boys flop or fall down more,  maybe up until a certain age but for HS ages I dunno?  Girls tend to be way more flexible even at this age. 

I can tell you the things that helped our senior daughter who has seen a number of teammates with this type of injury;  playing volleyball to strength the core and legs and Judo although she mostly has to spar with the bigger boys so knows how to roll and fall with somebody bigger pushing against her.


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## Kicker4Life

Real Deal said:


> .....The poor little girls can't deal with the rigors of DA.  All the references to *female* athletes and, as is implied, their "special needs"...


Yep, Women have a few “special needs” and additional work for ACL injury prevention is one of them.  That was my point.


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## timbuck

The Female Athlete Triad-  https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/79592/the-female-athlete-triad-an-under-recognized-spor.html


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## End of the Line

Many factors obviously contribute to ACL tears, perhaps the most important (other than genetics) being muscle fatigue.  The number of minutes played in a single game has a high correlation to ACL injury risk.  Here's a link to an interesting article.  https://fitforfutbol.com/2016/02/the-effect-of-travel-minutes-played-game-density-and-sleep-on-performance-injury-likelihood/. 

As discussed above, there are many ways a girl can take steps to potentially reduce the risk of an ACL injury.  First, if you have a family history of knee problems, don't play soccer.  Second, cross-train, build leg muscle strength and learn the biomechanics of running properly to avoid excessive knee strain.   Third, don't play DA or for the GNT.  There is no legitimate reason a 15-16 year old girl should play a 90 minute game, let alone train 4 days a week and then play 2 90 minute games over the weekend.  Is it any surprise that the U17 WNT has lost at least 5 players to ACL tears in the last year?  Finally, put your daughter on the pill.


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## espola

End of the Line said:


> Many factors obviously contribute to ACL tears, perhaps the most important (other than genetics) being muscle fatigue.  The number of minutes played in a single game has a high correlation to ACL injury risk.  Here's a link to an interesting article.  https://fitforfutbol.com/2016/02/the-effect-of-travel-minutes-played-game-density-and-sleep-on-performance-injury-likelihood/.
> 
> As discussed above, there are many ways a girl can take steps to potentially reduce the risk of an ACL injury.  First, if you have a family history of knee problems, don't play soccer.  Second, cross-train, build leg muscle strength and learn the biomechanics of running properly to avoid excessive knee strain.   Third, don't play DA or for the GNT.  There is no legitimate reason a 15-16 year old girl should play a 90 minute game, let alone train 4 days a week and then play 2 90 minute games over the weekend.  Is it any surprise that the U17 WNT has lost at least 5 players to ACL tears in the last year?  Finally, put your daughter on the pill.


Does the pill help prevent ACL tears?


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## sdb

https://fitforfutbol.com/2017/02/the-role-of-gender-in-pre-disposal-to-injury-by-lauren-cowley/

"Another explanation for gender’s role in pre-disposal to certain injuries may be hormonal differences between men and women. Sex hormones, e.g. estrogen and progesterone, cause an alteration of gene expression in soft tissues. Therefore sex hormones may influence the structure and function of tendons, particularly the achilles tendon. Estrogen reduces fibroblast biosynthesis, and could possibly decrease collagen density, which could in turn decrease tendon resistance to injury (Lee et al., 2004). Elevated endogenous estrogen levels in females have also been correlated with decreased collagen rates of synthesis, which can lead to reduced tendon cross-sectional area (Miller et al., 2006) which in turn, can increase risk of injury by reducing the tendon’s ability to adapt to loading upon it.

Sex hormones have also resulted in ligamentous laxity being found to be more dominant in females than males. This appears to be as a result of the women’s menstrual cycle, due to peak levels of estrogen and progesterone (Harmon & Ireland, 2000). ACL rupture incidence is found to be at its highest in females during the ovulation phase of their menstrual cycle, as that is when estrogen levels are at their peak (Wojtys et al., 1998). Wojtys et al. (2002) also discovered that oral contraceptive use decreases the occurrence of injury observed during this ovulation phase (Wojtys et al., 2002)."


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## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> Many factors obviously contribute to ACL tears, perhaps the most important (other than genetics) being muscle fatigue.  The number of minutes played in a single game has a high correlation to ACL injury risk.  Here's a link to an interesting article.  https://fitforfutbol.com/2016/02/the-effect-of-travel-minutes-played-game-density-and-sleep-on-performance-injury-likelihood/.
> 
> As discussed above, there are many ways a girl can take steps to potentially reduce the risk of an ACL injury.  First, if you have a family history of knee problems, don't play soccer.  Second, cross-train, build leg muscle strength and learn the biomechanics of running properly to avoid excessive knee strain.   Third, don't play DA or for the GNT.  There is no legitimate reason a 15-16 year old girl should play a 90 minute game, let alone train 4 days a week and then play 2 90 minute games over the weekend.  Is it any surprise that the U17 WNT has lost at least 5 players to ACL tears in the last year?  Finally, put your daughter on the pill.


This is one of the worst advice posts I have ever read.   Don't play soccer? Don't play DA to avoid the 90 min game when instead you will play 4-5 games in a weekend at tournaments?  The pill???  I hate to see what type of life advice you would provide.


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## timbuck

Probably a separate thread, but what the heck. 
You don’t hear too much about professional male soccer players with too many major injuries.  Yes- they happen. But not at the rate I would expect for the game length and intensity they they are playing at. 
Has there ever been a PED scandal at the highest levels of soccer?   
How strict are drug tests in EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, World Cup, etc?


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## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> This is one of the worst advice posts I have ever read.   Don't play soccer? Don't play DA to avoid the 90 min game when instead you will play 4-5 games in a weekend at tournaments?  The pill???  I hate to see what type of life advice you would provide.


Relax buddy, clearly you can't tell when something is written tongue in cheek.  If the concept of your daughter and the pill is too much for you to handle, I'd hate to see what type of life advice you are providing them.  Regardless, I highly recommend getting over it for many reasons, and before she goes to prom or gets seriously hurt on the pitch.  Tick tock.


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## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> Relax buddy, clearly you can't tell when something is written tongue in cheek.  If the concept of your daughter and the pill is too much for you to handle, I'd hate to see what type of life advice you are providing them.  Regardless, I highly recommend getting over it for many reasons, and before she goes to prom or gets seriously hurt on the pitch.  Tick tock.


My youngest is a senior and oldest ones in college so I am way past that issue.  Was your soccer advice tongue in cheek also?  If not it sucks.


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## espola

End of the Line said:


> Relax buddy, clearly you can't tell when something is written tongue in cheek.  If the concept of your daughter and the pill is too much for you to handle, I'd hate to see what type of life advice you are providing them.  Regardless, I highly recommend getting over it for many reasons, and before she goes to prom or gets seriously hurt on the pitch.  Tick tock.


Even better for building strength in female athletes would be testosterone or HGH injections.  I don't think they are illegal as long as they are done with a parent's consent and under a doctor's supervision.


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## timbuck

espola said:


> Even better for building strength in female athletes would be testosterone or HGH injections.  I don't think they are illegal as long as they are done with a parent's consent and under a doctor's supervision.


Good idea. But I'm worried that would impact her running.


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## Soccerfan2

End of the Line said:


> Many factors obviously contribute to ACL tears, perhaps the most important (other than genetics) being muscle fatigue.  The number of minutes played in a single game has a high correlation to ACL injury risk.  Here's a link to an interesting article.  https://fitforfutbol.com/2016/02/the-effect-of-travel-minutes-played-game-density-and-sleep-on-performance-injury-likelihood/.
> 
> As discussed above, there are many ways a girl can take steps to potentially reduce the risk of an ACL injury.  First, if you have a family history of knee problems, don't play soccer.  Second, cross-train, build leg muscle strength and learn the biomechanics of running properly to avoid excessive knee strain.   Third, don't play DA or for the GNT.  There is no legitimate reason a 15-16 year old girl should play a 90 minute game, let alone train 4 days a week and then play 2 90 minute games over the weekend.  Is it any surprise that the U17 WNT has lost at least 5 players to ACL tears in the last year?  Finally, put your daughter on the pill.


4 days of training often includes fitness/strength training and one 90 minute game is less risky than multiple games over the weekend tourney. My daughter plays DA and is thrilled with not being hurt/sore after games anymore because there’s only one game a day. She can also go all out every game now.  All kinds of elite athletes catch flack for doing too much, or too young. Bunch of crap. Look for examples of all those who defy the limits too. Go do what you love and learn to listen to your body and take full care of it. Girls don’t need artificial limits put on them.


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## espola

timbuck said:


> Good idea. But I'm worried that would impact her running.


One of my sons' former teammates who was the smallest player on the team that year underwent a series of HGH injections.  By the time he finished high school he was starting linebacker on the football team.   He attended a different high school than my kids so we lost track of his progress until we saw him working out on the track one day.  We didn't recognize him at first, but after he saw us he told us his tale.  His only problem was a weakness in the hip muscles because he was growing too fast.  Physical therapy cured that.


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## Soccerfan2

“Anterior cruciate ligament injuries are generally regarded as a particular concern for female athletes, with multiple previous studies, including those by Agel et al22 and Arendt et al,17 who reported higher rates of injury among females. Unfortunately, the plethora of such studies has led to a common belief that ACL injury is a problem for female athletes only. For example, Chappell et al19 claimed simply that female athletes have a higher risk of ACL injuries than male athletes. This assertion has been perpetuated because so few researchers have evaluated the overall incidence of ACL injuries and ACL injury rates across large numbers of sports. As shown in Table 1, football, a male sport, had the largest number of ACL injuries and also the highest competition-related ACL injury rate of the 9 sports we studied. In fact, we found no significant sex difference in ACL injury rates when all 9 sports were considered, only seeing a significantly higher rate in females when limiting analyses to sex-comparable sports (soccer, basketball, and baseball or softball). This is consistent with Mountcastle et al,20 who similarly found no sex difference between overall rates of ACL injury. Rates, however, are only one way to evaluate burden; incidence should also be considered. The high incidence of ACL injuries in football compared with other sports also demonstrates that ACL injuries are not limited to female athletes. In fact, given the large number of US high school football players relative to the number of girls’ basketball and soccer players,1 in terms of numbers of patients treated, sports medicine clinicians are more likely to treat a male high school athlete with an ACL injury than a female high school athlete with an ACL injury. Thus, in terms of sex, the burden of ACL injury is relative to the clinical or research question being asked. Although effective injury-prevention programs may need to be sex specific, given the large numbers of male athletes sustaining ACL injuries, efforts to create effective pro- grams should not be solely targeted to female athletes.”

http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-48.6.03?code=nata-site


----------



## End of the Line

Soccerfan2 said:


> 4 days of training often includes fitness/strength training and one 90 minute game is less risky than multiple games over the weekend tourney. My daughter plays DA and is thrilled with not being hurt/sore after games anymore because there’s only one game a day. She can also go all out every game now.  All kinds of elite athletes catch flack for doing too much, or too young. Bunch of crap. Look for examples of all those who defy the limits too. Go do what you love and learn to listen to your body and take full care of it. Girls don’t need artificial limits put on them.


Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study.  It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury.  Which medical study gave you that advice?  Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?

Placer dad, right?  I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world.  I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel.  But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous.  That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane.  That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs.  Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax.  That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".


----------



## Soccerfan2

End of the Line said:


> Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study.  It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury.  Which medical study gave you that advice?  Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?
> 
> Placer dad, right?  I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world.  I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel.  But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous.  That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane.  That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs.  Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax.  That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".


Whoa!  Lol!  I will wish peace and happiness for you.


----------



## End of the Line

Soccerfan2 said:


> Whoa!  Lol!  I will wish peace and happiness for you.


First things first.  Where's that medical study I asked you about?


----------



## Kicker4Life

End of the Line said:


> Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study.  It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury.  Which medical study gave you that advice?  Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?
> 
> Placer dad, right?  I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world.  I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel.  But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous.  That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane.  That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs.  Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax.  That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".


Thanks for exposing who you truly are and your agenda. Although you make a few valid points, your credibility is shot. We should have seen it when you expressed such concern over the 4 day a week training being too much. Do you know which of those days are film study?  Which ones are dedicated to technical work and/or recovery?  Do you know how Coaches manage player minutes throughout the season?

Do you have any experience or are you just assuming the worst and using it to shit on something you don’t know anything about?

PS- these are rhetorical, I don’t need your answers....I already have them.


----------



## beachbum

Soccerfan2 said:


> “Anterior cruciate ligament injuries are generally regarded as a particular concern for female athletes, with multiple previous studies, including those by Agel et al22 and Arendt et al,17 who reported higher rates of injury among females. Unfortunately, the plethora of such studies has led to a common belief that ACL injury is a problem for female athletes only. For example, Chappell et al19 claimed simply that female athletes have a higher risk of ACL injuries than male athletes. This assertion has been perpetuated because so few researchers have evaluated the overall incidence of ACL injuries and ACL injury rates across large numbers of sports. As shown in Table 1, football, a male sport, had the largest number of ACL injuries and also the highest competition-related ACL injury rate of the 9 sports we studied. In fact, we found no significant sex difference in ACL injury rates when all 9 sports were considered, only seeing a significantly higher rate in females when limiting analyses to sex-comparable sports (soccer, basketball, and baseball or softball). This is consistent with Mountcastle et al,20 who similarly found no sex difference between overall rates of ACL injury. Rates, however, are only one way to evaluate burden; incidence should also be considered. The high incidence of ACL injuries in football compared with other sports also demonstrates that ACL injuries are not limited to female athletes. In fact, given the large number of US high school football players relative to the number of girls’ basketball and soccer players,1 in terms of numbers of patients treated, sports medicine clinicians are more likely to treat a male high school athlete with an ACL injury than a female high school athlete with an ACL injury. Thus, in terms of sex, the burden of ACL injury is relative to the clinical or research question being asked. Although effective injury-prevention programs may need to be sex specific, given the large numbers of male athletes sustaining ACL injuries, efforts to create effective pro- grams should not be solely targeted to female athletes.”
> 
> http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-48.6.03?code=nata-site


Unless I'm reading the study wrong, woman in comparable sports (soccer, basketball and baseball/softball) are at least twice a likely to have an ACL injury,which sucks.  Obviously there is a physiological difference of males and females and muscle formation that cause woman to have a higher incidence of these type of injuries.  From what I understand there are certain strength and condition programs for woman that can help to some degree.  I think the colleges are implementing programs to help but at the club level if you don't implement some type of training outside of the club yourself it probably won't get done.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702781/


----------



## Soccerfan2

beachbum said:


> Unless I'm reading the study wrong, woman in comparable sports (soccer, basketball and baseball/softball) are at least twice a likely to have an ACL injury,which sucks.  Obviously there is a physiological difference of males and females and muscle formation that cause woman to have a higher incidence of these type of injuries.  From what I understand there are certain strength and condition programs for woman that can help to some degree.  I think the colleges are implementing programs to help but at the club level if you don't implement some type of training outside of the club yourself it probably won't get done.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702781/


Yes, ACL injuries happen most often to football players (who are usually male) as a result of contact. All soccer players are high risk but incidence in females are increasing more rapidly (probably because the number/frequency of females competing is growing more rapidly) and unlike in males most ACL injuries to females are non contact. Cross training and strength training that focuses on building up the supporting muscles around the knee and quad is an important preventative. Many running sport athletes have weak glute and hamstring muscles that need extra focus. That’s something every player can take charge of whether their HS/club/college has a program or not.


----------



## End of the Line

Kicker4Life said:


> Thanks for exposing who you truly are and your agenda. Although you make a few valid points, your credibility is shot. We should have seen it when you expressed such concern over the 4 day a week training being too much. Do you know which of those days are film study?  Which ones are dedicated to technical work and/or recovery?  Do you know how Coaches manage player minutes throughout the season?
> 
> Do you have any experience or are you just assuming the worst and using it to shit on something you don’t know anything about?
> 
> PS- these are rhetorical, I don’t need your answers....I already have them.


The GDA Mafia is relentless.  Seriously, you're pointing to "film study" to justify why a 15 year old girl should play in a curriculum that requires her to give up all other sports?  But as long as you're here, @Simisoccerfan and @Soccerfan2 can't seem to help me, so maybe you can forward me to the medical study that says playing 90 straight minutes has no impact on ACL injury risk for a teenage girl?  Or the one that says playing one sport year round also helps avoid ACL injuries?  Or the one that says "listening to your body" and "defying the limits" is a proven way to avoid ACL tears?   Unlike you, I'm not asking "rhetorically" (although you really meant "passive-aggressively" in your earlier post).

It is sad that GDA parents have become so desperate to save their failing league that they're willing to deny scientific fact.  It's ok, we'll still take all of you anti-vaxing climate change deniers back when the roof falls in - if you're good enough and don't have the measles.  We'll even let you have a few months off to play another sport or even HS soccer if that's what you want to do.  We're all about flexibility and doing what's best for your particular situation.  Go figure, we also put out a much better product on the pitch at a much lower cost to the consumer.

Hugs and Kisses,

ECNL


----------



## Kicker4Life

End of the Line said:


> The GDA Mafia is relentless.  Seriously, you're pointing to "film study" to justify why a 15 year old girl should play in a curriculum that requires her to give up all other sports?  But as long as you're here, @Simisoccerfan and @Soccerfan2 can't seem to help me, so maybe you can forward me to the medical study that says playing 90 straight minutes has no impact on ACL injury risk for a teenage girl?  Or the one that says playing one sport year round also helps avoid ACL injuries?  Or the one that says "listening to your body" and "defying the limits" is a proven way to avoid ACL tears?   Unlike you, I'm not asking "rhetorically" (although you really meant "passive-aggressively" in your earlier post).
> 
> It is sad that GDA parents have become so desperate to save their failing league that they're willing to deny scientific fact.  It's ok, we'll still take all of you anti-vaxing climate change deniers back when the roof falls in - if you're good enough and don't have the measles.  We'll even let you have a few months off to play another sport or even HS soccer if that's what you want to do.  We're all about flexibility and doing what's best for your particular situation.  Go figure, we also put out a much better product on the pitch at a much lower cost to the consumer.
> 
> Hugs and Kisses,
> 
> ECNL


Keep making up arguments so you can continue to entertain us all. And I’m not talking about ACL’s.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> The GDA Mafia is relentless.  Seriously, you're pointing to "film study" to justify why a 15 year old girl should play in a curriculum that requires her to give up all other sports?  But as long as you're here, @Simisoccerfan and @Soccerfan2 can't seem to help me, so maybe you can forward me to the medical study that says playing 90 straight minutes has no impact on ACL injury risk for a teenage girl?  Or the one that says playing one sport year round also helps avoid ACL injuries?  Or the one that says "listening to your body" and "defying the limits" is a proven way to avoid ACL tears?   Unlike you, I'm not asking "rhetorically" (although you really meant "passive-aggressively" in your earlier post).
> 
> It is sad that GDA parents have become so desperate to save their failing league that they're willing to deny scientific fact.  It's ok, we'll still take all of you anti-vaxing climate change deniers back when the roof falls in - if you're good enough and don't have the measles.  We'll even let you have a few months off to play another sport or even HS soccer if that's what you want to do.  We're all about flexibility and doing what's best for your particular situation.  Go figure, we also put out a much better product on the pitch at a much lower cost to the consumer.
> 
> Hugs and Kisses,
> 
> ECNL


The "Medical Study" you used in your first post was done by someone that is a senior in college.  In fact it says she is an Exercise Science Major and a former D2 Soccer Player at Mount Olive University.   She is not a doctor and she seems to get most of her data from 5 to 20 years ago.


----------



## sdb

To be fair to EOTL, I posted the article that talked about the impact of hormones on injuries. I did it in response to a question from another poster. I had never heard this before and was curious to read this article and thought others might be also. There are references to studies, that regardless of date, do seem credible.

This thread has drifted way off topic, but someone should start an ACL thread as it does seem to incite passions. Preventing ACL injuries doesn't seem like an ECNL vs GDA debate, and hopefully every league and coach is concerned about player safety and injury prevention, or at least they should be. In the absence of this concern, I definitely agree with whoever said that parents and players need to take an active role in this. I've seen an ACL injury derail a national team prospect, and our 06 team has had 1 of our top players out for the season.  These injuries can be devastating.


----------



## Desert Hound

The best way to prevent ACL injuy is to get a PS4 or Xbox and quit sports. Keep them in the house  They can play online sports. A lot less travel too.


----------



## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> The "Medical Study" you used in your first post was done by someone that is a senior in college.  In fact it says she is an Exercise Science Major and a former D2 Soccer Player at Mount Olive University.   She is not a doctor and she seems to get most of her data from 5 to 20 years ago.


Have you ever had one of those moments when your opponent smugly goes for the haymaker and misses badly, leaving himself exposed for the kill shot?

I did not post the article by the Mt. Olive student, although her credentials no doubt exceed yours.  The article I posted was written by Mike Young, the head fitness coach for the NC Courage and owner and Director of Performance at Athletic Labs Sports Performance Training Center.  Dr. Young has a PhD in biomechanics, an MS in coaching science and a BSS in exercise physiology.  He has coached professional athletes in MLS, NASL, PGA, NFL, MLB and Olympic athletes in numerous other sports.  The good doctor has authored two books and dozens of articles, has lectured at a number of U.S. universities and is an occasional contributor for ESPN.

Man, the discussion of the pill really got you freaked out.  Still waiting on your medical study....


----------



## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> Have you ever had one of those moments when your opponent smugly goes for the haymaker and misses badly, leaving himself exposed for the kill shot?
> 
> I did not post the article by the Mt. Olive student, although her credentials no doubt exceed yours.  The article I posted was written by Mike Young, the head fitness coach for the NC Courage and owner and Director of Performance at Athletic Labs Sports Performance Training Center.  Dr. Young has a PhD in biomechanics, an MS in coaching science and a BSS in exercise physiology.  He has coached professional athletes in MLS, NASL, PGA, NFL, MLB and Olympic athletes in numerous other sports.  The good doctor has authored two books and dozens of articles, has lectured at a number of U.S. universities and is an occasional contributor for ESPN.
> 
> Man, the discussion of the pill really got you freaked out.  Still waiting on your medical study....


 So none of the kids on your ECNL team go 90 min?  Your advice was either don’t play soccer.  Don’t play DA.  Learn how to run properly or take the pill. None of that was mentioned as advice in the article you attached.  In fact ACL is not even mentioned.  And the advice of the article was manly centered about getting proper sleep to aid recovery.


----------



## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> So none of the kids on your ECNL team go 90 min?  Your advice was either don’t play soccer.  Don’t play DA.  Learn how to run properly or take the pill. None of that was mentioned as advice in the article you attached.  In fact ACL is not even mentioned.  And the advice of the article was manly centered about getting proper sleep to aid recovery.


I think you're still woozy from the head injury I inflicted on you, because you forgot your medical study again and are seriously misrepresenting what I've been saying.

The truth is families with a genetic predisposition to knee injuries should consider whether soccer is the best sport for their daughter to play at a high level.  Soccer has easily the highest knee injury rate for girls besides lacrosse (the same sport, only for those who weren't good enough at soccer), more than 5x the risk of most other team sports and also significantly higher than basketball.  If your child has a genetic predisposition to knee injuries and has an opportunity to succeed in a different sport, they should consider it.  I don't care if you don't give a s**t about your own kids' health, but suggesting no one should even consider genetic predispositions to catastrophic knee injuries when deciding whether their kid should commit to soccer 4-6 days a week, 11 months a year is just stupid, especially if you're going to throw her into the GDA (see below).

The truth is the GDA's no reentry rule is dangerous and unnecessary.  No legitimate reason exists for this rule, not one, and there is simply no denying that in-game fatigue is the most direct cause of ACL injuries.  Despite overwhelming evidence, the GDA clings to rules that significantly increase the risk of catastrophic knee (and all fatigue-related) injuries.  Although you said that "ACL is not even mentioned" in the article I posted, you should actually read it when you get over being red in the face from the beat down I inflicted on you earlier and can read clearly.  For starters, check out the big graph in the middle of the article titled "ACL Injury Frequency by Minutes Played".  Despite being a science denier, you can at least read graphs, right?  If not, the short lines on the left are good, and the tall lines on the right are bad.

The truth is that learning the appropriate biomechanics of running can significantly reduce the risk of injury.  I'm not sure you're even disputing this, so I'll just move on to the subject that freaks you out, menstruation and the pill.  The truth is that the pill almost certainly helps reduce the risk of ACL injuries in girls, and I take it from your failure to provide any medical study to the contrary despite plenty of opportunity and repeated requests, that all you have to say is "nuh-uh".  I can only imagine how much time you spent frantically running Google searches without success.  Let me speed things along for everyone, because they deserve more persuasive info than your anti-science, juvenile debate tactic:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5524267/; https://ryortho.com/breaking/birth-control-pills-decrease-likelihood-of-knee-injuries/; https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/2016/04000/Effects_of_Oral_Contraceptive_Use_on_Anterior.9.aspx.  Spoiler alert, these studies were not conducted by a Mt. Olive undergrad student who played DII soccer, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I understand why your daughter is going as far away as possible for college.


----------



## sdb

Just curious, what is the argument that DA makes for their current sub rules? Our team playing in 06 DPL has limited subs also which seems unnecessary.


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## End of the Line

sdb said:


> Just curious, what is the argument that DA makes for their current sub rules? Our team playing in 06 DPL has limited subs also which seems unnecessary.


To prepare them for international play.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> I think you're still woozy from the head injury I inflicted on you, because you forgot your medical study again and are seriously misrepresenting what I've been saying.
> 
> The truth is families with a genetic predisposition to knee injuries should consider whether soccer is the best sport for their daughter to play at a high level.  Soccer has easily the highest knee injury rate for girls besides lacrosse (the same sport, only for those who weren't good enough at soccer), more than 5x the risk of most other team sports and also significantly higher than basketball.  If your child has a genetic predisposition to knee injuries and has an opportunity to succeed in a different sport, they should consider it.  I don't care if you don't give a s**t about your own kids' health, but suggesting no one should even consider genetic predispositions to catastrophic knee injuries when deciding whether their kid should commit to soccer 4-6 days a week, 11 months a year is just stupid, especially if you're going to throw her into the GDA (see below).
> 
> The truth is the GDA's no reentry rule is dangerous and unnecessary.  No legitimate reason exists for this rule, not one, and there is simply no denying that in-game fatigue is the most direct cause of ACL injuries.  Despite overwhelming evidence, the GDA clings to rules that significantly increase the risk of catastrophic knee (and all fatigue-related) injuries.  Although you said that "ACL is not even mentioned" in the article I posted, you should actually read it when you get over being red in the face from the beat down I inflicted on you earlier and can read clearly.  For starters, check out the big graph in the middle of the article titled "ACL Injury Frequency by Minutes Played".  Despite being a science denier, you can at least read graphs, right?  If not, the short lines on the left are good, and the tall lines on the right are bad.
> 
> The truth is that learning the appropriate biomechanics of running can significantly reduce the risk of injury.  I'm not sure you're even disputing this, so I'll just move on to the subject that freaks you out, menstruation and the pill.  The truth is that the pill almost certainly helps reduce the risk of ACL injuries in girls, and I take it from your failure to provide any medical study to the contrary despite plenty of opportunity and repeated requests, that all you have to say is "nuh-uh".  I can only imagine how much time you spent frantically running Google searches without success.  Let me speed things along for everyone, because they deserve more persuasive info than your anti-science, juvenile debate tactic:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5524267/; https://ryortho.com/breaking/birth-control-pills-decrease-likelihood-of-knee-injuries/; https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/2016/04000/Effects_of_Oral_Contraceptive_Use_on_Anterior.9.aspx.  Spoiler alert, these studies were not conducted by a Mt. Olive undergrad student who played DII soccer, not that there's anything wrong with that.
> 
> I understand why your daughter is going as far away as possible for college.


Hey, asshole!  You don't know me!  I have a great relationship with all of my kids.  If you don't like how I respond to your posts that's fine but keep any reference to my kids out of your idiotic posts.


----------



## timbuck

If this thread could get past the name calling -  There is some good info here.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

You have to look at the DA's no re-entry rule along with the rule that requires all players to start at least 25% of the time.   In practice this means that most teams limit their subbing to the second half of the game.  Girls that are at the end of the bench get substantial playing time when they start along with time off the bench when not starting.  Without these rules I have seen almost all teams always start the same players maybe occasionally mixing up the starters with the first few subs.  Girls at the end of the bench almost never start.  If they do get into the game its usually only for a few minutes at a time and if they do make mistakes the coach can quickly yank them out.


----------



## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> Hey, asshole!  You don't know me!  I have a great relationship with all of my kids.  If you don't like how I respond to your posts that's fine but keep any reference to my kids out of your idiotic posts.


Watch your language Mr. McGrumpy, you've going too far.  You had plenty of opportunity to engage in grown up discussion, but instead came out of the gate as a patronizing and arrogant jerk, and then kept digging the hole deeper when that went sideways for you.  Even after I flat out told you I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, you just couldn't lay off.  If you want people to treat you respectfully, you should start by being respectful.  But if you're going to be a prick, well, I'm happy to push your buttons because it's fun, easy and I'm better at it than you.

Isn't this forum a great learning tool?  You've now learned a lot about ACL injury avoidance and also a valuable life lesson in how to treat people, even if you had to learn both the hard way.  Maybe some day you'll learn to take a joke too, but you should probably block me now if that is asking too much.  If you think it would help patch up our relationship,  however, I'll give you one more chance to support your position on the pill with competent, scientific evidence if you have any.  If you don't, it's fine if you just want to apologize for being wrong and so mean to me.


----------



## Kicker4Life

End of the Line said:


> If you want people to treat you respectfully, you should start by being respectful.


One should listen to one’s own advice!  Can’t be an antagonist and claim people can’t take a joke. Especially when targeting people’s kids whether directly or indirectly and when using fake concern to push an anti DA agenda.


----------



## MarkM

sdb said:


> Just curious, what is the argument that DA makes for their current sub rules? Our team playing in 06 DPL has limited subs also which seems unnecessary.


Hockey-line substitution patterns lead to an ugly, pressing style of play.  There is a huge place in the game for pressing, but it should be done strategically and based on good positioning.  If you press, you should have to suffer the consequences of fatigue.  When fresh legs are brought in every 15 minutes, it places an over-emphasis on pressing, which leads to a hyper-focus on speed while downplaying technical ability. 

I'm not sure what the DPL sub rules are or whether they make sense.  Nor do I think all limited substitution rules make sense in all circumstances.  But I would recommend paying close attention to the end of each half when the girls tire out.  I think you will notice a difference in the ball movement and the slower build out from the back.  

My view of substitution rules is not limited to soccer, however.   I would prefer other sports, particularly American football adopt limited substitutions as well.  Liberal substitution rules lead to way too much specialization even within a sport.  It also can be unhealthy.  I don't think NFL lineman could ever be above 250 pounds if they had to play the entire game: https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-player-chargers-nick-hardwick-weight-loss-2015-6 .


----------



## Simisoccerfan

Goodbye, just added the guy to my ignore list.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

I just checked the stats for our last season.   Our roster ran 21 deep (not included DP girls that never moved full time).  We had a number of injuries through the season (along with other commitments were girls could not make a game) and some girls were added late in the season to the roster so we rarely had to non-roster someone who could play.  Even then those players not rostered often played that day with the older team.   The 21st player averaged 32 minutes.  17-20 averaged from 48 to 42 minutes.  Our 12th player averaged 66 minutes.  

This is data for just one team at one club but in my mind it clearly shows how the no re-entry rules along with the 25% start rule ends up spreading out minutes and how the end of the bench actually can benefit by getting more playing time under these rules.


----------



## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> I just checked the stats for our last season.   Our roster ran 21 deep (not included DP girls that never moved full time).  We had a number of injuries through the season (along with other commitments were girls could not make a game) and some girls were added late in the season to the roster so we rarely had to non-roster someone who could play.  Even then those players not rostered often played that day with the older team.   The 21st player averaged 32 minutes.  17-20 averaged from 48 to 42 minutes.  Our 12th player averaged 66 minutes.
> 
> This is data for just one team at one club but in my mind it clearly shows how the no re-entry rules along with the 25% start rule ends up spreading out minutes and how the end of the bench actually can benefit by getting more playing time under these rules.


I'm also happy to discuss math now that we've settled the discussion on biology.  I'm better at math anyway.

It is axiomatic that the additional substitution flexibility offered by ECNL provides more opportunity for the equitable distribution of minutes.  If you have more substitution opportunities, you have more opportunity to distribute minutes equitably in both a game and throughout a season.  It's a mathematical certainty.  If any coach (GDA or not) isn't passing out minutes equitably, that's the coach not the rules, unless you're in GDA.

Look at this another way.  Let's say hypothetically my daughter played GDA last year and her team played down a player and occasionally two in at least 5 games due to injuries in the last 10-15 minutes of games.  That's about 65 minutes over the season that could have been given to someone on the bench, and which would have been filled in any league but GDA, but which were filled by no one, and for what conceivable reason?  Furthermore, because many GDA coaches understandably avoid this kind of problem, it leaves bench players on the bench longer than anyone would like in virtually every game.  In other words, virtually every GDA game played results in some players playing more minutes than they need or should even have, and others playing fewer than they need or should have.  Some games also involve players playing hurt unnecessarily because they can't be subbed without having to play short.  It's one of reasons almost all of the best clubs in the country have jumped ship or relegated GDA to its B-teams.

Claiming that fewer opportunities to play in games means more opportunities to play in games is just more non-sense.  If we didn't live in Trump land, I wouldn't believe people were this dumb.


----------



## MarkM

End of the Line said:


> I'm also happy to discuss math now that we've settled the discussion on biology.  I'm better at math anyway.
> 
> It is axiomatic that the additional substitution flexibility offered by ECNL provides more opportunity for the equitable distribution of minutes.  If you have more substitution opportunities, you have more opportunity to distribute minutes equitably in both a game and throughout a season.  It's a mathematical certainty.  If any coach (GDA or not) isn't passing out minutes equitably, that's the coach not the rules, unless you're in GDA.
> 
> Look at this another way.  Let's say hypothetically my daughter played GDA last year and her team played down a player and occasionally two in at least 5 games due to injuries in the last 10-15 minutes of games.  That's about 65 minutes over the season that could have been given to someone on the bench, and which would have been filled in any league but GDA, but which were filled by no one, and for what conceivable reason?  Furthermore, because many GDA coaches understandably avoid this kind of problem, it leaves bench players on the bench longer than anyone would like in virtually every game.  In other words, virtually every GDA game played results in some players playing more minutes than they need or should even have, and others playing fewer than they need or should have.  Some games also involve players playing hurt unnecessarily because they can't be subbed without having to play short.  It's one of reasons almost all of the best clubs in the country have jumped ship or relegated GDA to its B-teams.
> 
> Claiming that fewer opportunities to play in games means more opportunities to play in games is just more non-sense.  If we didn't live in Trump land, I wouldn't believe people were this dumb.


65 minutes over an entire season.  Wow!  That's a lot of missed opportunity; hypothetically, of course.  Great point!


----------



## Soccerfan2

EOTL I feel safe in speaking for all of us in GDA to say that we are more than cool with you staying in ECNL. I say that with hesitation because I know, support and love lots of outstanding ECNL kids, coaches and families, but better them than us! We are all dumber for having listened to you, and may god have mercy on the souls of all the other parents on your poor child’s team


----------



## Simisoccerfan

I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played.  Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.


----------



## younothat

Roster sizes play a role in any league however since my kids have played or are now playing in those ones mentioned:

At U15+ DA is the least amount of play time for those on the end of the bench, when only 15 play (11  + 4 subs)  the starting 11 gets what they need and everybody else not enough basically.

There is a disconnect between the roster sizes and sub rules in DA:  with 18-23 players there is always going to between 3-8 players each week who don't play at all.   11 players get the majority of the minutes, 1-2 will get 20 minutes, 1-2 will get 10 minutes at game.

ECNL, DSL,CSL all seem to be about the same to me but again lots depends on the roster size.   With 16 or so players in those leagues should be enough minutes for most, more than 16 yes depends on the coaches, situations, etc


----------



## sdb

Simisoccerfan said:


> I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played.  Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.


Related to the playing time and injury discussion which got a few folks riled up, it would also be interesting for all of the leagues to publish an injury report where they list when injuries occurred for players (what time of the game, how many minutes played leading up to injury, etc.). Never gonna happen, but at least we'd then have some data to go by beyond those scientific studies... I'm sure everyone has an anecdote or 2 on this. The bad one we had on our team occurred late in the third game on a three day weekend (played 1 game per day).

From what I've seen and heard from others on teams with small benches like ours, the substitution limits are keeping starters 1-9 on the field longer and meaning fewer minutes to players 10-13. We have only 3 moments to sub (plus halftime) during the game so the coach uses those sparingly in the first half. Even with unlimited substitution, we wouldn't be making line changes.


----------



## End of the Line

Soccerfan2 said:


> EOTL I feel safe in speaking for all of us in GDA to say that we are more than cool with you staying in ECNL. I say that with hesitation because I know, support and love lots of outstanding ECNL kids, coaches and families, but better them than us! We are all dumber for having listened to you, and may god have mercy on the souls of all the other parents on your poor child’s team


I just won $100 for the god reference, although I was aiming for @simisoccerdad.  If you lean on science deniers hard enough and blast through the typical rhetorical tactics they use to dodge the science, they virtually always eventually resort to expletives and default to a religious reference in a last ditch effort to end the discussion.  The latter makes them think they'll get sympathy from part of the audience, even if it's just a handful of people so far in your case.  They also expect religion to be off limits and can therefore end debates as "winners" without ever having made a single substantive point in an argument that really isn't a legitimate debate at all.  It's fascinating dilemma.  On the one hand, my buddy didn't want to expose religious bias as the basis for his initial reflex negative reaction to the pill because it would mean he has no credibility to bizarrely claim it can't help prevent ACL injury.  On the other hand, he eventually found that the typical tactics - patronizing statements followed by personal attacks on credibility, misrepresenting prior statements, pretending  using a couple numbers constitutes a real mathematical or statistical analysis, expletives, even falsely accusing me of personally attacking his children - that usually run people off weren't working, but were instead being met in kind and then one-upped (ok, twice-upped).  So, inevitably, someone threw out the god card when it just wasn't going to stop otherwise.  The only thing I can't figure out about your comment, though, is that you used a lower case "g".  Did I just get lucky or are you also trying to hide the religious angle to the bitter end?

Let me know when you're ready for a serious ACL discussion.  You and @simisoccerdad would be much better off admitting the pill probably does help reduce ACL injury risk, but your religious or social reasons outweigh the likely health benefit to teenage girls in your opinion, which is at least a fair point.  Instead, your buddy would prefer to resort to the typical rhetoric by mocking me and trashing some poor Mt. Olive undergrad student whose article actually references solid professional studies if you actually  read it.  But if you're gonna be a jerk, I'm happy to play that way too, obviously.  In the meantime, for the sake of our children's knees, can @simisoccerdad explain the basis for his position on the pill?  Is it based on anything? Or did his sub-conscious puritanical upbringing get him in over his head on this one, so he finally threw in the towel and slithered off?


----------



## Simisoccerfan

sdb,  Not sure if this is your first year in DA but the 25% start rule will greatly increase the playing time for the bench players if implemented properly.   It will force the coach to play substantial minutes to all players when they start since they also have limited subs and moments to sub.  At least that is how I have seen it play out.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Simisoccerfan said:


> I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played.  Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.


Just let it go......not worth continuing the comparisons.  It ends up as nothing but Troll bait.


----------



## LASTMAN14

Kicker4Life said:


> Just let it go......not worth continuing the comparisons.  It ends up as nothing but Troll bait.


Agreed. Great time to call this the end of the line.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

I already Ended the Line for me but I agree, time to end this topic.


----------



## Soccerfan2

He didn’t even get my Billy Madison reference. End of the line for me.


----------



## push_up

Bravo, End of the Line, Bravo.

That is some quality shit right there.  Tail between the legs from multiple posters on a single thread.  TROLL ON!


----------



## sdb

This was discussed a few pages back regarding impact of period on ACL tears, so thought this article would be relevant to post related to sports performance and the impact of periods.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2019/07/13/revealed-next-frontier-sports-science-usas-secret-weapon-womens/


----------



## Mullet

End of the Line said:


> Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study.  It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury.  Which medical study gave you that advice?  Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?
> 
> Placer dad, right?  I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world.  I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel.  But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous.  That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane.  That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs.  Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax.  That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".


Ummmm, wow, that was pretty angry.


----------



## Mullet

End of the Line said:


> I think you're still woozy from the head injury I inflicted on you, because you forgot your medical study again and are seriously misrepresenting what I've been saying.
> 
> The truth is families with a genetic predisposition to knee injuries should consider whether soccer is the best sport for their daughter to play at a high level.  Soccer has easily the highest knee injury rate for girls besides lacrosse (the same sport, only for those who weren't good enough at soccer), more than 5x the risk of most other team sports and also significantly higher than basketball.  If your child has a genetic predisposition to knee injuries and has an opportunity to succeed in a different sport, they should consider it.  I don't care if you don't give a s**t about your own kids' health, but suggesting no one should even consider genetic predispositions to catastrophic knee injuries when deciding whether their kid should commit to soccer 4-6 days a week, 11 months a year is just stupid, especially if you're going to throw her into the GDA (see below).
> 
> The truth is the GDA's no reentry rule is dangerous and unnecessary.  No legitimate reason exists for this rule, not one, and there is simply no denying that in-game fatigue is the most direct cause of ACL injuries.  Despite overwhelming evidence, the GDA clings to rules that significantly increase the risk of catastrophic knee (and all fatigue-related) injuries.  Although you said that "ACL is not even mentioned" in the article I posted, you should actually read it when you get over being red in the face from the beat down I inflicted on you earlier and can read clearly.  For starters, check out the big graph in the middle of the article titled "ACL Injury Frequency by Minutes Played".  Despite being a science denier, you can at least read graphs, right?  If not, the short lines on the left are good, and the tall lines on the right are bad.
> 
> The truth is that learning the appropriate biomechanics of running can significantly reduce the risk of injury.  I'm not sure you're even disputing this, so I'll just move on to the subject that freaks you out, menstruation and the pill.  The truth is that the pill almost certainly helps reduce the risk of ACL injuries in girls, and I take it from your failure to provide any medical study to the contrary despite plenty of opportunity and repeated requests, that all you have to say is "nuh-uh".  I can only imagine how much time you spent frantically running Google searches without success.  Let me speed things along for everyone, because they deserve more persuasive info than your anti-science, juvenile debate tactic:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5524267/; https://ryortho.com/breaking/birth-control-pills-decrease-likelihood-of-knee-injuries/; https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/2016/04000/Effects_of_Oral_Contraceptive_Use_on_Anterior.9.aspx.  Spoiler alert, these studies were not conducted by a Mt. Olive undergrad student who played DII soccer, not that there's anything wrong with that.
> 
> I understand why your daughter is going as far away as possible for college.


The actual number of players who play a full 90 minutes is likely the same as in ECNL. 

The actual number of ECNL games in a compressed season to accommodate a High School compressed season is also not very healthy.


----------



## Kicker4Life

Mullet said:


> The actual number of players who play a full 90 minutes is likely the same as in ECNL.
> 
> The actual number of ECNL games in a compressed season to accommodate a High School compressed season is also not very healthy.


Nor is the compressed HS schedule


----------



## End of the Line

Mullet said:


> The actual number of players who play a full 90 minutes is likely the same as in ECNL.
> 
> The actual number of ECNL games in a compressed season to accommodate a High School compressed season is also not very healthy.


That is some really great analysis.  The authority you cited to support your assertion that "the actual number of players who play a full 90 minutes is likely the same as in ECNL" is very compelling.  People should definitely support GDA's no reentry rule, since it is possible that some bad ECNL coaches might regularly play most of their kids 90 straight minutes despite the additional flexibility provided under that platform, especially kids with stupid parents who think that regularly playing full games is a great idea.  Children should not be allowed breaks during games; it is imperative that we begin preparing them all for international competition beginning at the age of 13.

Do you really want to go down the road of defending GDA's no reentry rule?  Before you know it, you're going to find yourself defending USSF decisions to hold soccer tournaments in Denver in April like the rest of the GDA mafia.


----------



## Mullet

End of the Line said:


> That is some really great analysis.  The authority you cited to support your assertion that "the actual number of players who play a full 90 minutes is likely the same as in ECNL" is very compelling.  People should definitely support GDA's no reentry rule, since it is possible that some bad ECNL coaches might regularly play most of their kids 90 straight minutes despite the additional flexibility provided under that platform, especially kids with stupid parents who think that regularly playing full games is a great idea.  Children should not be allowed breaks during games; it is imperative that we begin preparing them all for international competition beginning at the age of 13.
> 
> Do you really want to go down the road of defending GDA's no reentry rule?  Before you know it, you're going to find yourself defending USSF decisions to hold soccer tournaments in Denver in April like the rest of the GDA mafia.


No, the larger point is having re-entry does not mean that ECNL players do not play full 90 minutes per game. The reality is that the amount of kids who get in full games across both leagues is likely the same. Feel free to review the game logs on the DA site to see just how many kids are really playing full games.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

I firmly believe from my years of experience with three kids playing various levels of club soccer that the no re-entry rule (combined with a mandatory % start rule) results in more playing time for the marginal kids on a team.   When they play, they get substantial minutes because the coach can't just sub them out right away.   On the vast majority of teams that I have seen play without this rule the end of the bench is lucky to get a few minutes a half.


----------



## espola

Simisoccerfan said:


> I firmly believe from my years of experience with three kids playing various levels of club soccer that the no re-entry rule (combined with a mandatory % start rule) results in more playing time for the marginal kids on a team.   When they play, they get substantial minutes because the coach can't just sub them out right away.   On the vast majority of teams that I have seen play without this rule the end of the bench is lucky to get a few minutes a half.


I firmly believe that that is a bogus comparison.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> I firmly believe that that is a bogus comparison.


Contrarian as always.  There is always going to be players at the end of the bench on any team.   The sad truth is that most coaches are motivated to win and are not interested in developing the end of the bench.  They are motivated to keep their star players happy.   The end of the bench is to keep the team financially viable.   Maybe your kid was always a starter so you did not see it.   The only leagues I have seen mandate play time is DA and AYSO.   Though opposite ends of the spectrum both provide guarantees.   In all other leagues I have seen the end of the bench be lucky to get scrub minutes even against lesser opponents.   Maybe I have just had the bad luck of having and seeing a bunch of lousy coaches.


----------



## Kicker4Life

espola said:


> I firmly believe that that is a bogus comparison.


Based on what Magoo ?  Your gut?


----------



## vegasguy

I know a player who traveled to matches and didnt play.  Went to DA nationals and saw zero minutes.  I have always be taught to make sure kids play in all situations including pressure game enders because you never know who you may need to step up when.  Coaches all want to win but sometimes in league games you need to lose for the better good and development.  The hard part about that is a loss is a loss and it falls to the replaceable coach


----------



## espola

Kicker4Life said:


> Based on what Magoo ?  Your gut?


Who is Magoo?


----------



## Josep

vegasguy said:


> I know a player who traveled to matches and didnt play.  Went to DA nationals and saw zero minutes.  I have always be taught to make sure kids play in all situations including pressure game enders because you never know who you may need to step up when.  Coaches all want to win but sometimes in league games you need to lose for the better good and development.  The hard part about that is a loss is a loss and it falls to the replaceable coach



Everyone signs a contract understand that your game time can fall anywhere from 0 to 90 minutes. The end bench players typically will get 20-30 a game.  

This isn’t AYSO where everyone gets fair minutes.  Hell, in flight 1 and 2 games kids don’t get fair minutes.  That is inexcusable to me.  That’s the development league.  ECNL and DA play with higher “stakes” if you will.  

Nobody should get free minutes. If you’re not inspired to work harder in training sessions with your team and on your own outside, you really should reevaluate the level your kid plays. 

At DA and ENCL levels the kids who work hard know how doesn’t really earn their game time.  And those kids don’t want to play at lower levels. 

I’m sorry.  A lot of these kids learn or should be learning about accountability.  That’s as important as   Anything at those levels.


----------



## espola

Josep said:


> Everyone signs a contract understand that your game time can fall anywhere from 0 to 90 minutes. The end bench players typically will get 20-30 a game.
> 
> This isn’t AYSO where everyone gets fair minutes.  Hell, in flight 1 and 2 games kids don’t get fair minutes.  That is inexcusable to me.  That’s the development league.  ECNL and DA play with higher “stakes” if you will.
> 
> Nobody should get free minutes. If you’re not inspired to work harder in training sessions with your team and on your own outside, you really should reevaluate the level your kid plays.
> 
> At DA and ENCL levels the kids who work hard know how doesn’t really earn their game time.  And those kids don’t want to play at lower levels.
> 
> I’m sorry.  A lot of these kids learn or should be learning about accountability.  That’s as important as   Anything at those levels.


Nonsense.


----------



## Kicknit22

espola said:


> Nonsense.


Just curious.  What’s “Nonsense”?


----------



## espola

Kicknit22 said:


> Just curious.  What’s “Nonsense”?


Let's start with "A lot of these kids learn or should be learning about accountability."


----------



## Kicknit22

espola said:


> Let's start with "A lot of these kids learn or should be learning about accountability."


Okay, not a good start.  Please continue.


----------



## espola

Kicknit22 said:


> Okay, not a good start.  Please continue.


If the "D" in "DA" really stands for "Development" the rules should not restrict the tactics of good coaches just because weaker coaches will take advantage of them.


----------



## Kicknit22

But I thought ALL coaches in the DA are supposed to be highly certified and qualified.  The only out-coaching that occurs is on the practice field, or when the subbing happens thru the flow of the game, right? Besides, we aren’t developing coaches, are we? Player 12-20 pretty much know where they stand, or they know pretty quickly out of the gate.  Don’t like it, take accountability and work harder to improve it.


----------



## espola

Kicknit22 said:


> But I thought ALL coaches in the DA are supposed to be highly certified and qualified.  The only out-coaching that occurs is on the practice field, or when the subbing happens thru the flow of the game, right? Besides, we aren’t developing coaches, are we? Player 12-20 pretty much know where they stand, or they know pretty quickly out of the gate.  Don’t like it, take accountability and work harder to improve it.


It's hard to tell which parts of that are intended to be sarcastice.  Maybe we need a special sarcasm font, like italic only different.


----------



## Kicknit22

_But I thought ALL coaches in the DA are supposed to be highly certified and qualified. The only out-coaching that occurs is on the practice field, or when the subbing happens thru the flow of the game, right? Besides, we aren’t developing coaches, are we?_ 
Player 12-20 pretty much know where they stand, or they know pretty quickly out of the gate. Don’t like it, take accountability and work harder to improve it.


----------



## espola

Further thoughts -- some have claimed that the no-re-entry rule is valuable because it exposes players to what they will experience at the elite levels.  With about 90 teams (looking at the older boys clubs here), there might be 2 to 4 players on a typical DA club roster of 20 or so who have any hope of being called up to National teams at any age.  So let the team declare who those players are on the game roster - those few are limited to no re-entry, and the coach can do what he likes with the rest of the squad, including pulling them off for a short time for rest, possible injury analysis, or explanation of their errors as needed, without limits to their re-entry rights.


----------



## Desert Hound

espola said:


> Further thoughts -- some have claimed that the no-re-entry rule is valuable because it exposes players to what they will experience at the elite levels.  With about 90 teams (looking at the older boys clubs here), there might be 2 to 4 players on a typical DA club roster of 20 or so who have any hope of being called up to National teams at any age.  So let the team declare who those players are on the game roster - those few are limited to no re-entry, and the coach can do what he likes with the rest of the squad, including pulling them off for a short time for rest, possible injury analysis, or explanation of their errors as needed, without limits to their re-entry rights.


If have thought something along similar lines. Let the "stars" be the ones who don't get pulled. Let the rest of the team get more game time experiences to develop. 

After all virtually none on these teams are going to end up playing on the national team, but a large percentage will play in college. And to be honest most players/parents look at DA as a way to play college soccer.


----------



## espola

Desert Hound said:


> If have thought something along similar lines. Let the "stars" be the ones who don't get pulled. Let the rest of the team get more game time experiences to develop.
> 
> After all virtually none on these teams are going to end up playing on the national team, but a large percentage will play in college. And to be honest most players/parents look at DA as a way to play college soccer.


Not only that, but throwing in waves of "lesser" players will be better training for the full-timers.

Then they will just have to deal with the parents who realize their kid is on the 1.5th team.


----------



## MacDre

Desert Hound said:


> If have thought something along similar lines. Let the "stars" be the ones who don't get pulled. Let the rest of the team get more game time experiences to develop.
> 
> After all virtually none on these teams are going to end up playing on the national team, but a large percentage will play in college. And to be honest most players/parents look at DA as a way to play college soccer.


If most players/parents look at DA as a just a way to play college I respectfully submit that there’s a problem with their underachieving mentality.  All players in DA should strive to make the NT too.


----------



## timbuck

College players are allowed 1 re-entry per game.  Unlimited amount of players can be subbed.  

We really should be striving towards that for most players.  Especially female.


----------



## espola

timbuck said:


> College players are allowed 1 re-entry per game.  Unlimited amount of players can be subbed.
> 
> We really should be striving towards that for most players.  Especially female.


The last time I cared to check the rules, it is no re-entry in the first half, one re-entry in the second half and one re-entry in second overtime period (should one occur) and the slate is wiped clean at halftime and the beginning of overtime periods, so players who have come off can start the period as if they had been there all along.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> coach can do what he likes with the rest of the squad, including pulling them off for a short time for rest, possible injury analysis, or explanation of their errors as needed, without limits to their re-entry rights.


That’s naive.  Under these rules the end of the bench will never start.  When they do get in and make several mistakes the coach will yank them for a starter.  The end of the bench plays in fear mode.  No re-entry and guarantee 25% starts for all means meaningful minutes without the fear of being yanked out of the game.


----------



## espola

Simisoccerfan said:


> That’s naive.  Under these rules the end of the bench will never start.  When they do get in and make several mistakes the coach will yank them for a starter.  The end of the bench plays in fear mode.  No re-entry and guarantee 25% starts for all means meaningful minutes without the fear of being yanked out of the game.


Under the more liberalized rules I have proposed, a coach could sub the end of the bench player for one of the stars a without worrying that he would be stuck with that  player until the final whistle since he could put the star back in whenever he wanted to.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> Under the more liberalized rules I have proposed, a coach could sub the end of the bench player for one of the stars a without worrying that he would be stuck with that  player until the final whistle since he could put the star back in whenever he wanted to.


Yep like in 5 minutes when the bench player makes a mistake.  Under DA rules that bench player is starting at least 25% of the time and is likely going 60 min plus since the coach only has a few subs.


----------



## espola

Simisoccerfan said:


> Yep like in 5 minutes when the bench player makes a mistake.  Under DA rules that bench player is starting at least 25% of the time and is likely going 60 min plus since the coach only has a few subs.


If the player makes a mistake, the coach can pull him out, show him on paper or a greaseboard what he should have done, and put him back in.  Good coaches not limited by the DA restrictions do that now.


----------



## timbuck

I said this somewhere else here before. 
But more liberal sub rules also let you ease back a player who is coming off of an injury (minor or major).


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> If the player makes a mistake, the coach can pull him out, show him on paper or a greaseboard what he should have done, and put him back in.  Good coaches not limited by the DA restrictions do that now.


All seven of them in SoCal


----------



## espola

timbuck said:


> I said this somewhere else here before.
> But more liberal sub rules also let you ease back a player who is coming off of an injury (minor or major).


It allows a player to be removed from the game for evaluation of a possible concussion, for covering up a bleeding cut, or to recover from a cramp, and then put him back in later as appropriate.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> It allows a player to be removed from the game for evaluation of a possible concussion, for covering up a bleeding cut, or to recover from a cramp, and then put him back in later as appropriate.


 You can do this if in DA. You just play with 10 for a while


----------



## espola

Simisoccerfan said:


> You can do this if in DA. You just play with 10 for a while


That's not really a solution.  It's just another problem.


----------



## Simisoccerfan

espola said:


> That's not really a solution.  It's just another problem.


Soccer is a game of solving problems.


----------



## espola

Simisoccerfan said:


> Soccer is a game of solving problems.


If I were Emperor of American soccer, the first problem I would solve is the fragmented, contradictory youth player development programs.


----------



## End of the Line

Simisoccerfan said:


> Soccer is a game of solving problems.


As you know, the problems caused by your ongoing poor advice often must be solved by orthopedic surgeons.


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## Simisoccerfan

End of the Line said:


> As you know, the problems caused by your ongoing poor advice often must be solved by orthopedic surgeons.


For those that don’t know the situation, my dd had acl and meniscus surgery 5 months ago.  This asshole, the most despicable piece of trash, scum of the earth just said this!   He doesn’t even have kids playing soccer anymore.  This is about the lowest thing I have seen posted.  This guy needs to be shamed off this server!


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## Kicker4Life

End of the Line said:


> As you know, the problems caused by your ongoing poor advice often must be solved by orthopedic surgeons.


You are a piece of shit...PERIOD and I don’t need to pull limited pieces of information that skew the context of the whole article to try and back me. 

Have a nice day GFY!


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## Josep

Simisoccerfan said:


> That’s naive.  Under these rules the end of the bench will never start.  When they do get in and make several mistakes the coach will yank them for a starter.  The end of the bench plays in fear mode.  No re-entry and guarantee 25% starts for all means meaningful minutes without the fear of being yanked out of the game.



Exactly


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## Josep

espola said:


> Under the more liberalized rules I have proposed, a coach could sub the end of the bench player for one of the stars a without worrying that he would be stuck with that  player until the final whistle since he could put the star back in whenever he wanted to.


In your scenario the bench player is merely babysitting game minutes until the coach gets scared and puts the star back.  That’s not a true test and the player knows it.


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## espola

Josep said:


> In your scenario the bench player is merely babysitting game minutes until the coach gets scared and puts the star back.  That’s not a true test and the player knows it.


Not if the coach is truly interested in "developing" that player.  And if he is not, why is the player on the roster at all?


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## Josep

espola said:


> Not if the coach is truly interested in "developing" that player.  And if he is not, why is the player on the roster at all?



A lot of the coaches I’ve been around say the development happens much more in practice.  This is anywhere from club to MLS coaches.  

Yes there’s obviously some decision making and improvements to be made in 11v11 or any game situation.  But if your decision making and skills are not up to par in practice, you’ll get exposed in games.  

It doesn’t mean these players are bad.  It means they may not be up to the caliber of the level - ECNL or DA.  They’d probably dominate flight one or DA2 or EGSL.  This can change from week to week as Other factors include your opponents.  If you’re playing Solar, you need a stronger lineup than if
You were playing against Pateadores.


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## espola

Josep said:


> A lot of the coaches I’ve been around say the development happens much more in practice.  This is anywhere from club to MLS coaches.
> 
> Yes there’s obviously some decision making and improvements to be made in 11v11 or any game situation.  But if your decision making and skills are not up to par in practice, you’ll get exposed in games.
> 
> It doesn’t mean these players are bad.  It means they may not be up to the caliber of the level - ECNL or DA.  They’d probably dominate flight one or DA2 or EGSL.  This can change from week to week as Other factors include your opponents.  If you’re playing Solar, you need a stronger lineup than if
> You were playing against Pateadores.


When my kids were still involved in youth soccer, I heard that USSF was creating a nationwide program to develop the best players.  Then I saw that they were just going to rename the best boys teams, and start the program at age 16, and then start keeping standings and rewarding the clubs and teams with the best win-loss records, I realized it was just the same old BS.  Whatever my personal feeling were, I was willing to wait and watch.  So now, with over 10 years passed of their supposed 10-year plan, the mens USNT failed to qualify for the World Cup.  We did better than that when all we had was the original underfunded ODP program.


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## Josep

espola said:


> When my kids were still involved in youth soccer, I heard that USSF was creating a nationwide program to develop the best players.  Then I saw that they were just going to rename the best boys teams, and start the program at age 16, and then start keeping standings and rewarding the clubs and teams with the best win-loss records, I realized it was just the same old BS.  Whatever my personal feeling were, I was willing to wait and watch.  So now, with over 10 years passed of their supposed 10-year plan, the mens USNT failed to qualify for the World Cup.  We did better than that when all we had was the original underfunded ODP program.



Your kids don’t even play but you’re still in here banging the drum?   I imagine there’s a better way to spend your time with adult children no longer playing youth soccer instead of challenging everyone and everything on a youth soccer forum. 

I’m curious why you are still carrying the torch?


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## Justafan

Josep said:


> Your kids don’t even play but you’re still in here banging the drum?   I imagine there’s a better way to spend your time with adult children no longer playing youth soccer instead of challenging everyone and everything on a youth soccer forum.
> 
> I’m curious why you are still carrying the torch?


Leave him alone, he’s entertaining.


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## EOTL

End of the Line said:


> Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study.  It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury.  Which medical study gave you that advice?  Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?
> 
> Placer dad, right?  I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world.  I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel.  But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous.  That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane.  That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs.  Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax.  That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".


Was I close @Soccerfan2?


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## EOTL

Kicker4Life said:


> Thanks for exposing who you truly are and your agenda. Although you make a few valid points, your credibility is shot. We should have seen it when you expressed such concern over the 4 day a week training being too much. Do you know which of those days are film study?  Which ones are dedicated to technical work and/or recovery?  Do you know how Coaches manage player minutes throughout the season?
> 
> Do you have any experience or are you just assuming the worst and using it to shit on something you don’t know anything about?
> 
> PS- these are rhetorical, I don’t need your answers....I already have them.


Was I assuming the worst and using it to shit on something I don’t know anything about?  Or was I right? 

PS- these are rhetorical, I don’t need your answers....I already have them.


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## Ellejustus

EOTL said:


> Was I assuming the worst and using it to shit on something I don’t know anything about?  Or was I right?
> 
> PS- these are rhetorical, I don’t need your answers....I already have them.


I kind of liked you back then until you bitch slapped me a few times for leaving the Blues and going to Surf for freebies......lol!!!  I know I know, I deserved it and I was just looking for free sh*t.  You caught me red handed and with my hand in the cookie jar.  Not only did I get free soccer, I got all the goats over from the Blues in a 5 player coup so we could win a National Championship and not da Blues......hahahahahahah and we did.  I just looked at the trophy in my office.  I had to win the that freaking championship that escaped my youth and by God I got one.  There, I confess......lol.........lol..........lol.........baaaaaaaaahahhaaaaaaaaaaaa


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## dad4

EOTL said:


> Was I close @Soccerfan2?


Someone from Blues is trolling people about injuries?  Dang that's funny.  

As long as you are on the topic, would you care to say how many ACL tears and repeat concussions at Blues ECNL teams in 2018 and 2019?

<crickets>


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## Ellejustus

dad4 said:


> Someone from Blues is trolling people about injuries?  Dang that's funny.
> 
> As long as you are on the topic, would you care to say how many ACL tears and repeat concussions at Blues ECNL teams in 2018 and 2019?
> 
> <crickets>


I know I had a coach crush on Tad and all that.  He was really one of the few honest and straight shooters in da game.  Told like it was and told me my goat was born to play the great game. Anyway back to my story, I believe my DD was protected from acl and super physical style injuries. My dd had most of her injuries playing hard Blues style. It was ruff and tough and not for the sissies. it was the only thing I complained about besides the obvious one who yelled and screamed at young ladies.


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## Giesbock

I distinctly recall you EJ saying that your dad is an Eagle flying solo. But now you’re celebrating that you had a role in bringing players from on team to another.  You sir are very very confusing...


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## Giesbock

Meant to say dd not dad....


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> I distinctly recall you EJ saying that your dad is an Eagle flying solo. But now you’re celebrating that you had a role in bringing players from on team to another.  You sir are very very confusing...


Well, the perceptions of the great EOTL is always right except one time, means he was right about all the freebies I was after and the natty.  Many others on here said  we were chasers of the ring, just like Lebron.  It hurt me so much and then they said all these other nasty rumor sh*t, it was insane and I understand now, what I didn't understand back when I had so much kool aid, it was on my mouth, my hands, my car, my words.  I was fuc*ing mess bro.  I needed someone to slap me straight and someone did. What do you think brother?  Do you think my dd went solo like all Eagles or did I package all the goats like the Jackson 5?  If you guess right, I will PM you the truth since I'm a liar and full of dung.


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## Ellejustus

I'm kicking it on da beach and four guys from Brazil are playing 2 v 2 beach soccer.  I swear and no one is saying a word.  Is this wrong? Should I out them.  Plus, the beach is packed again just like the pool.  I'm literally watching rich people swim with their kids in the pool on the beach.  Sunset is coming and I will post tonight beautiful set.  On top of that, I'm alive and in the best dam shape in my life.  I owe so much to my wife. She prepped for this moment in time.


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## Giesbock

Ellejustus said:


> Well, the perceptions of the great EOTL is always right except one time, means he was right about all the freebies I was after and the natty.  Many others on here said  we were chasers of the ring, just like Lebron.  It hurt me so much and then they said all these other nasty rumor sh*t, it was insane and I understand now, what I didn't understand back when I had so much kool aid, it was on my mouth, my hands, my car, my words.  I was fuc*ing mess bro.  I needed someone to slap me straight and someone did. What do you think brother?  Do you think my dd went solo like all Eagles or did I package all the goats like the Jackson 5?  If you guess right, I will PM you the truth since I'm a liar and full of dung.


She was solo. Final answer.


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> She was solo. Final answer.


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> She was solo. Final answer.


I would never, ever do that bro.  How embarrassing for me personally.  That's why I got so triggered by some last year.  I did know a few dad's that did well going that route.  Package deal and TM position....lol.  Thanks for understanding who i truly am brother Giesbock.  I want you to know I wish your dd the best outcome in all this crap that will soon go away for the better.  I bet you 100% by 2022, both of our goats will be happy.  This soon will all pass and I can;t wait


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## Giesbock

Back to that word “development “...I could be wrong (certainly have been plenty of times before) but I think pro evaluators, coaches, doc’s, guys and gals who run private training programs, national team scouts, etc. all can recognize pretty quickly whether a player has the foot speed, coordination and raw tools to make it.  Grit, drive, ball skills might take more time for them to assess, but the physical tools are either there or they’re not.

I’m talking post-pubescent not 10 or even 15year olds..

Am I right?  Or not?


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> Back to that word “development “...I could be wrong (certainly have been plenty of times before) but I think pro evaluators, coaches, doc’s, guys and gals who run private training programs, national team scouts, etc. all can recognize pretty quickly whether a player has the foot speed, coordination and raw tools to make it. * Grit, drive,* ball skills might take more time for them to assess, but the physical tools are either there or they’re not.
> 
> I’m talking post-pubescent not 10 or even 15year olds..
> 
> Am I right?  Or not?


Hardest one for a coach.  What's in the soul?  What's in the heart?


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## dad4

Giesbock said:


> Back to that word “development “...I could be wrong (certainly have been plenty of times before) but I think pro evaluators, coaches, doc’s, guys and gals who run private training programs, national team scouts, etc. all can recognize pretty quickly whether a player has the foot speed, coordination and raw tools to make it.  Grit, drive, ball skills might take more time for them to assess, but the physical tools are either there or they’re not.
> 
> I’m talking post-pubescent not 10 or even 15year olds..
> 
> Am I right?  Or not?


Not.

If it were easy to predict development, college coaches would never waste scholarship money on people who turn out to be practice squad players.


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## Giesbock

Yeah I see your point.  I’m thinking of something the parents of a top German Academy player said to me...that the doc knows that so and so is not fast enough to ever make it but they keep her on false hopes.  

Is that happening here in the US too?  I say yes.

The college roster question is something they don’t deal with at all in Europe...


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> Yeah I see your point.  I’m thinking of something the parents of a top German Academy player said to me...that the doc knows that so and so is not fast enough to ever make it but they keep her on false hopes.
> 
> Is that happening here in the US too?  I say yes.
> 
> The college roster question is something they don’t deal with at all in Europe...


Four main areas a top coach or scout will judge your dd on.  Some use a scoring system for each of the four.  For example, the Competitive Zone Score ((CZS) might be 40-50 for each of the four areas.  No girl player has all four in the competitive zone and not too many score 50 out of 50.  Your stoked if the dd makes it past 40. 

1) Mental Dimension in Defense ((Basically, work rate on defense and what their true mental toughness is.  Strikers play defense too.))
2) Physical Dimension in Defense ((Soccer speed and strength in Defense and balls in the air))
3) Technical Competence and Tactical awareness in Offense ((reading, runs & skills on offense. Soccer IQ))
4) Physical dimensions in Offense ((soccer speed and strength in Offense))


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## Giesbock

Our daughter does private training 2x weekly.  New skills, things she’s never worked on, deficiencies, etc. pushing the envelope and never very good at whatever they start working through.  Usually some frustration and self doubt, but over time, she acquires that skill and it becomes part of her arsenal.  

To my simple soccer-brain, that’s where individual development occurs.  

Then when coach calls for the team to practice that skill, you’re able to Practice it, not Learn it in front of your team...


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## Ellejustus

Giesbock said:


> Our daughter does private training 2x weekly.  New skills, things she’s never worked on, deficiencies, etc. pushing the envelope and never very good at whatever they start working through.  Usually some frustration and self doubt, but over time, she acquires that skill and it becomes part of her arsenal.
> 
> To my simple soccer-brain, that’s where individual development occurs.
> 
> Then when coach calls for the team to practice that skill, you’re able to Practice it, not Learn it in front of your team...


I'm sick of the word development.  Let's get the games started.....lol!!!


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## gotothebushes

Giesbock said:


> Our daughter does private training 2x weekly.  New skills, things she’s never worked on, deficiencies, etc. pushing the envelope and never very good at whatever they start working through.  Usually some frustration and self doubt, but over time, she acquires that skill and it becomes part of her arsenal.
> 
> To my simple soccer-brain, that’s where individual development occurs.
> 
> Then when coach calls for the team to practice that skill, you’re able to Practice it, not Learn it in front of your team...


Good job parent. Why to continue your kids development. Wish the best for her.


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## gotothebushes

Ellejustus said:


> I'm sick of the word development.  Let's get the games started.....lol!!!


 Easy EJ. LOL! We've been waiting 5 months what's another 3/4. It all works out and girls are injury free. So let them keep developing on their own.


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## Ellejustus

gotothebushes said:


> Easy EJ. LOL! We've been waiting 5 months what's another 3/4. It all works out and girls are injury free. So let them keep developing on their own.


I've been waiting since 2017 for real top top games in socal.  I'm sorry, Monday is hitting me hard.  Monday Blues again?  I'm sick of hearing, "it's all about development" in socal by the suits.  2017-2018, no playoffs, no keeping score.  Stupid is as stupid as that.  Who the hell doent keep score for 8th graders? Then, they watered down socal so bad that were all divided now.  We used to be #1, now it looks like Texas and Nocal are top.  No, it's always is and always will be about playing in real soccer games and always will be about the game.  This is so weak, it makes me sick......lol.  My rant for the day


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## RJonesUSC

Ellejustus said:


> ...My *first* rant for the day


FIFY


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## Ellejustus

RJonesUSC said:


> FIFY


Thanks Jones.  Development vs Actual Game.  I understand way more now.  Soccer is one big mess still and will get sorted out soon.


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## RJonesUSC

Ellejustus said:


> Thanks Jones.  Development vs Actual Game.  I understand way more now.  Soccer is one big mess still and will get sorted out soon.


Just giving you a hard time cause of all your previous rants per day.  Shouldn't you be in the water this morning?  The water is so warm it's fun to be out there even though the waves weren't quite as nice this morning as they were last week.


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## Ellejustus

RJonesUSC said:


> Just giving you a hard time cause of all your previous rants per day.  Shouldn't you be in the water this morning?  The water is still so warm even though the waves weren't quite as nice this morning.


I know.  I'm joking too.  The water is amazing and the kids are sleeping ((Zoom crashed)) so waves all to me self.  Aliso Beach had some glass and shore break. Just did my meditation on da beach. I'm all washed up Jones and one big has been and one who still lives in his past glory days.  No more surfing for me.  I'm retired.  I just swim now.  I cant risk getting slammed in the beach anymore.


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## gotothebushes

Ellejustus said:


> I've been waiting since 2017 for real top top games in socal.  I'm sorry, Monday is hitting me hard.  Monday Blues again?  I'm sick of hearing, "it's all about development" in socal by the suits.  2017-2018, no playoffs, no keeping score.  Stupid is as stupid as that.  Who the hell doent keep score for 8th graders? Then, they watered down socal so bad that were all divided now.  We used to be #1, now it looks like Texas and Nocal are top.  No, it's always is and always will be about playing in real soccer games and always will be about the game.  This is so weak, it makes me sick......lol.  My rant for the day


 You know in Norway they don't keep score til after age of 14 I believe and they don't rank teams. Saw this on Real Sports. Just watch old videos and you'll be ok. You and your daughter will be back on the pitch soon I hope. Keep swimming my friend to keep your mind off soccer.


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## Ellejustus

gotothebushes said:


> You know in Norway they don't keep score til after age of 14 I believe and they don't rank teams. Saw this on Real Sports. Just watch old videos and you'll be ok. You and your daughter will be back on the pitch soon I hope. Keep swimming my friend to keep your mind off soccer.


Cool for Norway.  I'm not advocating keeping score when their 8 either.  I'm no expert, but in America it's ok to teach about winning and losing, at least in sports.  I'm thinking 6th grade introduce it.


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## EOTL

Ellejustus said:


> Cool for Norway.  I'm not advocating keeping score when their 8 either.  I'm no expert, but in America it's ok to teach about winning and losing, at least in sports.  I'm thinking 6th grade introduce it.


Norway has never won anything, but I have heard the USA is pretty ok at women’s soccer. Maybe the USA knows something other countries don’t.

The US is the best at women’s soccer because more kids play it, and for more years. Wow, that was simple. Boring the most competitive - meaning the best - ones nearly to death until they pick a sport that’s actually sport and not circus juggling only eliminates that advantage.


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