# World Cup 2018 thread



## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

Why is there no WC thread here yet?

OK, I'll start --

I have been invited to a WC-viewing party at an England-themed restaurant this morning for the England/Belgium game.  Both teams are through to the round of 16 no matter what the result is of this game or the other game in their group.  If the coaches are smart, they will sit anyone with a yellow card, or who needs rest for a nagging injury, or who has pissed the coach off recently.  Sounds like a good excuse to drink warm beer and munch on appetizers that would be ruled inedible at any other bar or restaurant in the county.


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## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

Games on now - Japan needs to win, draw, or for Senegal to win against Colombia.  If Japan and Senegal both lose, the outcome will depend on how the scores affect the tie-breakers (GD, goals, head-to-head results and scores, and perhaps even red/yellow card counts).

Senegal needs to win or draw.  A loss would put them behind Colombia, and maybe behind Japan depending on the result there.


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## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

Colombia and Poland both leading 1-0 with about 15 minutes left in both games.  If those results stand, that would put Colombia in and Japan/Senegal deep into tie-breaker calculations.


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## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

espola said:


> Colombia and Poland both leading 1-0 with about 15 minutes left in both games.  If those results stand, that would put Colombia in and Japan/Senegal deep into tie-breaker calculations.


Someone on Bigsoccer.com says Japan has three fewer yellow cards than Senegal, which is the tiebreaker in force at the moment.


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## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

From the WC 2018 Regulations --

fair play points system in which the number of yellow and red cards in all group matches is considered according to the following deductions: 
– first yellow card: minus 1 point 
– second yellow card/indirect red card: minus 3 points 
– direct red card: minus 4 points 
– yellow card and direct red card: minus 5 points


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## espola (Jun 28, 2018)

England V Belgium -- Our family tree has roots in England, so there's that.  A distant aunt/cousin on my father's mother's side published a genealogical book for the Corliss family in America around 1960.  Supposedly the original Corliss sailed over in the 1600's from Belgium*.  She even included a portrait of a former King** of Belgium to show the family resemblance.  

*Belgium became a country in 1830.
**When Belgium became independent and no longer a province of the French, Germans, Spanish, or Dutch, they decided on a German nobleman to be their first King.


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## LASTMAN14 (Jun 29, 2018)

I am Groot.


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## Justafan (Jun 29, 2018)

espola said:


> England V Belgium -- Our family tree has roots in England, so there's that.  A distant aunt/cousin on my father's mother's side published a genealogical book for the Corliss family in America around 1960.  Supposedly the original Corliss sailed over in the 1600's from Belgium*.  She even included a portrait of a former King** of Belgium to show the family resemblance.
> 
> *Belgium became a country in 1830.
> **When Belgium became independent and no longer a province of the French, Germans, Spanish, or Dutch, they decided on a German nobleman to be their first King.


Try ancestry.com, you may be surprised at some of the results.


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## espola (Jun 29, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Try ancestry.com, you may be surprised at some of the results.


I have used it with some of my siblings to get a family tree including all my ancestors back to when they entered USA.  I think the population count is up to over 600, but that includes aunts, uncles, and cousins not directly in the line.


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## Surfref (Jun 29, 2018)

Portugal vs Uruguay Saturday morning.  It is my wife’s birthday and she wants to watch Ronaldo so we are going to some bar in downtown San Diego to meet friends.


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## espola (Jun 30, 2018)

The France PK call - not DOGSO because the player was not near the ball, which was probably going out.

The second Argentina caution - don't know why that wasn't DOGSO.  I guess every referee has his own rulebook.


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## espola (Jun 30, 2018)

espola said:


> The France PK call - not DOGSO because the player was not near the ball, which was probably going out.
> 
> The second Argentina caution - don't know why that wasn't DOGSO.  I guess every referee has his own rulebook.


With France on a clear run toward goal, the last Argie defender kicked him in the shins to stop him.


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## espola (Jun 30, 2018)

Referee poster on Bigsoccer.com pointed out that the best referees are from Europe and South America, and in a WC game between teams of those confederations, their referees are ineligible.  That's why we get third-string performances like that in the Uruguay-Portugal game.


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## Surfref (Jul 1, 2018)

espola said:


> The France PK call - not DOGSO because the player was not near the ball, which was probably going out.
> 
> The second Argentina caution - don't know why that wasn't DOGSO.  I guess every referee has his own rulebook.


Change to the LOTG.  Don’t feel like explaining now, but a DOGSO can be a Caution (Yellow card).


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## espola (Jul 2, 2018)

Neymar put onside by the Mexico defender stretching out his leg to block the crossing pass.


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## espola (Jul 2, 2018)

Neymar's reputation for faking/exaggerating injuries must be so strong that you can do anything to him, even with VAR watching.


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## MWN (Jul 2, 2018)

espola said:


> Neymar's reputation for faking/exaggerating injuries must be so strong that you can do anything to him, even with VAR watching.


Anybody that flops around (4+ rolls) like a fish out of water because another player stepped on his foot is exaggerating ... aka ... lying.

*The Boy Who Cried Wolf*



There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"

The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.

"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.

Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.

When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"

But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.

Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"

But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.

At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.

"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"

An old man tried to comfort the boy as they walked back to the village.

"We'll help you look for the lost sheep in the morning," he said, putting his arm around the youth, "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"


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## Surfref (Jul 2, 2018)

I wish just one referee had the balls to show Neymar a Yellow card for faking an injury (flopping). IMHO, he is a disgrace to the game.


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## MWN (Jul 2, 2018)

From the last game, good thing for Neymar the VAR cameras are only in the stadium:


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## espola (Jul 2, 2018)

Belgium-Japan was better that Spain-Portugal in the first round.


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## CaliKlines (Jul 2, 2018)

Belgium v Japan...best match of the cup so far! Incredible second half.


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## Surfref (Jul 2, 2018)

Belgium scores the winning goal in the last seconds of additional time.  Brazil vs Belgium should be a good game.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 2, 2018)

CaliKlines said:


> Belgium v Japan...best match of the cup so far! Incredible second half.


Great to see a match where neither team lost because of some bone-head error or bad call.  Just great play from end to end on both sides (and superb refereeing to boot).  Much respect to Japan.  They played their tails off.  

Anyone else really impressed with Tony Meola's color commentary?  He's the first American-accented color commentator that I actually like.  His voice and reactions to plays remind me of Troy Aikman's NFL work.  It makes for a unique experience hearing someone who sounds so "American" get all the subtle tactical and technical points right on the money without the buffoonery most former American players bring to the booth.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 2, 2018)

LOL.  Apparently I'm not the only one...

https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/07/02/tony-meola-troy-aikman-world-cup-announcer-tweet


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## CaliKlines (Jul 2, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Great to see a match where neither team lost because of some bone-head error or bad call.  Just great play from end to end on both sides (and superb refereeing to boot).  Much respect to Japan.  They played their tails off.
> 
> Anyone else really impressed with Tony Meola's color commentary?  He's the first American-accented color commentator that I actually like.  His voice and reactions to plays remind me of Troy Aikman's NFL work.  It makes for a unique experience hearing someone who sounds so "American" get all the subtle tactical and technical points right on the money without the buffoonery most former American players bring to the booth.


I'm partial to these two announcers swapping sports...


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## f1nfutbol fan (Jul 2, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Anyone else really impressed with Tony Meola's color commentary?


+1. I actually like way tony & aly see/describe the game.

Great job to both of them.


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## timbuck (Jul 2, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I wish just one referee had the balls to show Neymar a Yellow card for faking an injury (flopping). IMHO, he is a disgrace to the game.


Last World Cup-  Neymar becomes a household name.  
After this year, if I see someone wearing a Neymar jersey, I will think less of them.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 2, 2018)

Paul Pogba and Killian Mbappe are making a mockery of the World Cup.  They are both playing at such a ridiculously high level that it is going to take something pretty crazy to beat them.  France vs England final.  Viva Le Bleu!


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## younothat (Jul 2, 2018)

espola said:


> Neymar's reputation for faking/exaggerating injuries must be so strong that you can do anything to him, even with VAR watching.





timbuck said:


> Last World Cup-  Neymar becomes a household name.
> After this year, if I see someone wearing a Neymar jersey, I will think less of them.






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1981062518581005



Mexico coach calls Neymar antics 'an embarrassment for soccer' after World Cup loss
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mexico-coach-calls-neymar-antics-embarrassment-soccer-world-cup-loss-171741900.html

The ankle step on might have been accidental hard to tell but yeah hurts and a foul regardless


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 2, 2018)

younothat said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1981062518581005
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is an Academy Award winning actor.  That flop during group play that was originally called a PK until VAR review would have made Tom Hanks proud.


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## timbuck (Jul 2, 2018)

Would Nike drop him for his antics?
That would send a message more than any caution or fine. 
But I’m sure adidas or puma would pick him up right away.


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## younothat (Jul 2, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Would Nike drop him for his antics?
> That would send a message more than any caution or fine.
> But I’m sure adidas or puma would pick him up right away.


This one going around is classic:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156478690433735


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 2, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Would Nike drop him for his antics?
> That would send a message more than any caution or fine.
> But I’m sure adidas or puma would pick him up right away.


C.R.E.A.M.

@Zerodenero eill hip you to what that means...


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## espola (Jul 3, 2018)

VAR helps get the call right, but who cares at this point?


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## espola (Jul 3, 2018)

Colombia should be down 2 men by now.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 3, 2018)

Watching the Colombia/England game and the Brazil/Mexico game make me really wish refs would start carding for embellishment (Unsporting Behavior).  It's ridiculous.  Every single bit of physical contact that a male international player experiences is apparently followed by a complete collapse of the central nervous system.


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## Surfref (Jul 3, 2018)

Mark Geiger (referee in Eng vs Col) needs to get control of the game. There is going to be a red card before the game is over.  The ref has let the game get wat too physical.


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## coachsamy (Jul 3, 2018)

This World Cup is atrocious. What is the point of the VAR if they are not going to review all this bullshit flopping!


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## Surfref (Jul 3, 2018)

70th minute and 7 yellow cards and no control of the match.  JMO, had the ref issued the red for the headbutt we probably would not be seeing the ugly overly physical play from Columbia and England.


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## coachsamy (Jul 3, 2018)

This game is FIXED!!!!


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 5, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> This World Cup is atrocious. What is the point of the VAR if they are not going to review all this bullshit flopping!


Atrocious? I agree the flopping has to stop, but the games have been far better than any other World Cup I have witnessed.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 5, 2018)

*World Cup ratings down 42% without American team...*


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## outside! (Jul 5, 2018)

I have stayed out of this thread to avoid spoilers during group play and the round of 16. Regarding the Spain vs. Russia game, Spain demonstrated the most cowardly possession game I have ever seen. Someone should let them know there is a goal at the other end of the field.


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## younothat (Jul 5, 2018)

coachsamy said:


> This World Cup is atrocious. What is the point of the VAR if they are not going to review all this bullshit flopping!


The kids are not having it:


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 5, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Mark Geiger (referee in Eng vs Col) needs to get control of the game. There is going to be a red card before the game is over.  The ref has let the game get wat too physical.


I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one. I was almost in tears with how proud I was of Geiger. I was worried going into half time, but he managed what was easily the hardest game to ref this WC beautifully. 120 minutes, no injuries, no reds, every match critical incident was spot on. And FIFA apparently agrees as he has gone on and will probably get a Semi-final CTR.

If Geiger gave that early red or had an early double yellow because he started giving out cautions by the book. Then the Columbians, who knew they were the underdogs, would have lost faith in their ability to compete with the English and then the leg breaking tackles would have begun.


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## espola (Jul 5, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one. I was almost in tears with how proud I was of Geiger. I was worried going into half time, but he managed what was easily the hardest game to ref this WC beautifully. 120 minutes, no injuries, no reds, every match critical incident was spot on. And FIFA apparently agrees as he has gone on and will probably get a Semi-final CTR.
> 
> If Geiger gave that early red or had an early double yellow because he started giving out cautions by the book. Then the Columbians, who knew they were the underdogs, would have lost faith in their ability to compete with the English and then the leg breaking tackles would have begun.


Nonsense.


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## timbuck (Jul 5, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> *World Cup ratings down 42% without American team...*


I read the article. It said that streaming viewers were not counted.  
Anyone know what that means?  I have YouTubeTV and have watched the games on fox, fs1 using YouTubeTV. Many of of friends are also using this, Sling or Fubo to watch games. 
And a 1 million viewer decline isn’t that bad considering how many games are played in the early hours.


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## smellycleats (Jul 6, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I wish just one referee had the balls to show Neymar a Yellow card for faking an injury (flopping). IMHO, he is a disgrace to the game.


Why can’t a card be given for unsportsman-like conduct? Or delay of game? Would they have to write a new rule to do that or can they use existing rules on the books? If refs started calling those and giving penalties maybe it would be a relief to players and they could just play the game and not worry that they’re doing their team a disservice by not flopping when everyone else is.   It’s why I prefer watching women play. There is so much less of that nonsense.


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## espola (Jul 6, 2018)

smellycleats said:


> Why can’t a card be given for unsportsman-like conduct? Or delay of game? Would they have to write a new rule to do that or can they use existing rules on the books? If refs started calling those and giving penalties maybe it would be a relief to players and they could just play the game and not worry that they’re doing their team a disservice by not flopping when everyone else is.   It’s why I prefer watching women play. There is so much less of that nonsense.


The rules are on the books.  FIFA has made it clear to the referees that they should ignore the rules and put up with whatever nonsense the players produce rather than send someone off.  

I'm old enough to remember the failure of NASL in the 60's - at least partially due to players suffering "soccer injuries" turning people off.  There have been a couple of good, spirited games played by teams that actually played the game.  Why doesn't FIFA instruct the referees to produce that kind of game?


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## Surfref (Jul 6, 2018)

Neymar, enjoy your plane flight home and don’t trip (flop) while getting on the plane.


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## Zdrone (Jul 6, 2018)

Was a hell of a game.  Good attacking on both sides. 

Felt like Belgium gave up a lot of lousy passes in the Brazil third.  

Courtois deserves a nice present in his stocking this year


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## younothat (Jul 6, 2018)

1 Brazil vs. 2 Belgium was a good battle.     The coaching, tactics, and team work really payed off  for Belgium, the keeping and leadership by Courtois was excellent, those counterattacks, Lukaku was beastly once again. 

Thierry Henry assistant coach for Belgium could be a interesting asset & sidebar vs France


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## watfly (Jul 6, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one. I was almost in tears with how proud I was of Geiger. I was worried going into half time, but he managed what was easily the hardest game to ref this WC beautifully. 120 minutes, no injuries, no reds, every match critical incident was spot on. And FIFA apparently agrees as he has gone on and will probably get a Semi-final CTR.
> 
> If Geiger gave that early red or had an early double yellow because he started giving out cautions by the book. Then the Columbians, who knew they were the underdogs, would have lost faith in their ability to compete with the English and then the leg breaking tackles would have begun.


There are a lot of Geiger apologists, mostly Americans,  that share your same opinion.  They also point to the fact that FIFA had instructed the refs to set a high bar for issuing cards and that the game ended with 11v11.  Admittedly the game settled down in extra time but was dicey all the way through regular time.  To say that if a red card was given that leg breaking fouls would start is pure speculation and isn't an excuse not to enforce the LOTG.  Spare me any rationalization that its a nuanced call, he clearly drove his head into the chin of any opponent with force and intent.   Of course Geiger didn't know that because he didn't review the play and instead passed off responsibility to the VAR official.  That's actually my biggest beef with how it was handled, not the fact that it was only a yellow.

More troublesome to me is his handling of the mass confrontation after the penalty call.  He let that situation get out of control and delay the game significantly.  He was clearly bumped intentionally by at least one Columbian player and should have shown a yellow card.  By not doing so he sent the message that he wasn't in charge of the match.  To me he was more concerned with not influencing the outcome of the game by sending someone off then he was was with properly managing the game.

Another concern is the precedent that the officiating of the game set.  So now mass confrontations with intentional contact to the ref may be OK?  Intentional head blows with force may no longer be red cards?  I think that's heading in the wrong direction.

Now this is in now way meant to absolve Columbia, and to some extent, England of their actions.  It was a very difficult match to referee, no doubt, but I can't rave about Geiger's performance, not awful, but a grade of C at best.  I appreciate that in some respects Geiger may have been just following the directives of his boss FIFA in setting a high bar for cards.  I understand what FIFA is trying to accomplish but in my mind they approached it the wrong way.  If they were concerned about cards they should have increased the yellow card limit to 3,  that way it doesn't change the way the game is called on the pitch and players are more responsible for their own behavior.

On another note, I propose a new rule...for every body roll in excess of one after you are "fouled" is a one minute penalty per roll in a "sin bin".


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## timbuck (Jul 6, 2018)

I hear Nike is releasing a new Vapor Neymar  shoe to be worn after games.  It will be a flip flop.  (Boooo!!!!   Terrible joke).


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> There are a lot of Geiger apologists, mostly Americans,  that share your same opinion...
> 
> That's actually my biggest beef with how it was handled, not the fact that it was only a yellow.
> 
> More troublesome to me is his handling of the mass confrontation after the penalty call.


Okay, I point to the 2010 WC finals as an example of where giving early cards did not lower the temperature of the match, but escalated it. Cards are tools for a referee to manage the game, you shouldn't just give cards because a book insists that you do. I've seen so many games by amatuer refs escalate for no reason just because the referee had a low threshold for cards. I think this psych study summarizes my point. thouroughly: http://www.psychref.org/2018/01/the-referee-as-game-manager.html#.Wz_X0tVKgdU 
The better the referee becomes, the more he sees himself as a game manager instead of strict law enforcer.

VAR did not necessarily tell him to issue yellow, we don't know, but it could have just as easily been the 4th or AR1. Just because he touched his ear does not mean he talked to VAR. Secondly on this point, there was already too much chaos when Geiger was present, can you imagine what would have happened if Geiger would have left the field in that instance to check VAR. I think there was little to be gained by going to VAR and then giving a red, there was barely any force and there is enough doubt about the head and neck muscles being used as a tool to hold off the attacker in the wall as opposed to a weapon like Zidane. England committed a similar "headbutt" with similar force that Geiger actually saw himself and he was consistent and issued the yellow.

As for dissent, We as referee's are expected to be able to tolerate a certain amount of abuse. Sure, in the laws it wants automatic yellow for dissent and red for verbal abuse. But assignors roll their ayes when they see the same reports by the same referees about the same abuse that every other referee just absorbs. It looks bad if we are so thin skinned that we go and cry to the rule book and tattle tale on those mean players and coaches. I wish the abuse didn't happen, but cards wont stop it, it is a systematic problem that needs to be addressed from the top.

Effectively deciding a game just because your feelings were hurt does little justice to the game. You will look bad, rule book be damned. You see the overreaction to that one MLS referee that gave two yellows in 30 seconds. One for not respecting the distance, the other for dissent. That game was decided in a moment when the ball wasn't even in play. The referee was completely justified in both cards by the book, but everyone (including MLS) seemed to vilify that ref for being weak. 

I like to think of referees this way. We are not the heroes the players deserve, we are the heroes the players need.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> More troublesome to me is his handling of the mass confrontation after the penalty call. He let that situation get out of control and delay the game significantly. He was clearly bumped intentionally by at least one Columbian player and should have shown a yellow card. By not doing so he sent the message that he wasn't in charge of the match. To me he was more concerned with not influencing the outcome of the game by sending someone off then he was was with properly managing the game.


I agree 100%.  The Colombia/England match he wasn't just absorbing normal levels of abuse and disrespect, they were mobbing him after almost every call, and he would engage them in discussions instead of taking charge.  To me, he looked totally overwhelmed.  Now, that being said, I think he did get just about every major call correct, so kudos for that.  But as a spectator, the product of the game was generally awful.  If you've ever played a pick-up basketball game in a rough neighborhood, you know that 50% of the time on the court is spent yelling and arguing over fouls instead of playing the damn game.  That's because there isn't an official and every foul is disputed.  That's what that match reminded me of, except there it was on global TV and there was ostensibly an official in charge.  Except there really wasn't.  

Now, I personally think it has less to do with Gieger's threshold for giving cards and more to do with his body language and communication skill.  Nestor Pitana is the exact opposite.  Dude's whole demeanor makes it known that he takes no BS from anyone.    





Maybe Gieger needs to take notes from Pitana (and famed NFL ref, Ed Hocculi) and hit the gym and get yoked.


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## watfly (Jul 6, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> Okay, I point to the 2010 WC finals as an example of where giving early cards did not lower the temperature of the match, but escalated it. Cards are tools for a referee to manage the game, you shouldn't just give cards because a book insists that you do. I've seen so many games by amatuer refs escalate for no reason just because the referee had a low threshold for cards. I think this psych study summarizes my point. thouroughly: http://www.psychref.org/2018/01/the-referee-as-game-manager.html#.Wz_X0tVKgdU
> The better the referee becomes, the more he sees himself as a game manager instead of strict law enforcer.
> 
> VAR did not necessarily tell him to issue yellow, we don't know, but it could have just as easily been the 4th or AR1. Just because he touched his ear does not mean he talked to VAR. Secondly on this point, there was already too much chaos when Geiger was present, can you imagine what would have happened if Geiger would have left the field in that instance to check VAR. I think there was little to be gained by going to VAR and then giving a red, there was barely any force and there is enough doubt about the head and neck muscles being used as a tool to hold off the attacker in the wall as opposed to a weapon like Zidane. England committed a similar "headbutt" with similar force that Geiger actually saw himself and he was consistent and issued the yellow.
> ...


Philosophically I agree with some of your points, but some of your other points don't match the fact pattern of this game.  For example, Geiger was pushed by a Columbian player(s).  A player can't push a ref with impunity...refs know it, players know it, coaches know it, fans know it.  This wouldn't be a matter of a Ref being thin skinned for issuing a card, if it was then where would you draw the line?  Punching a ref?  Somewhere way before punching a ref, a ref should be able to issue a card for contact.  You have to draw a line somewhere (or not ignore the existing lines drawn by the LOTG) otherwise the application and the enforcement of the LOTG become entirely subjective, which creates unneeded conflict between refs, player and coaches.  It also turns the management of the game into rule enforcement roulette.

I don't doubt that on limited occasions issuing cards can potentially make a situation worse, but that's no excuse for not issuing cards when a foul deserving of a card is committed.  I could be wrong, but I doubt any governing body has every published guidance to that effect, its certainly not in the LOTG.


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## espola (Jul 6, 2018)

watfly said:


> Philosophically I agree with some of your points, but some of your other points don't match the fact pattern of this game.  For example, Geiger was pushed by a Columbian player(s).  A player can't push a ref with impunity...refs know it, players know it, coaches know it, fans know it.  This wouldn't be a matter of a Ref being thin skinned for issuing a card, if it was then where would you draw the line?  Punching a ref?  Somewhere way before punching a ref, a ref should be able to issue a card for contact.  You have to draw a line somewhere (or not ignore the existing lines drawn by the LOTG) otherwise the application and the enforcement of the LOTG become entirely subjective, which creates unneeded conflict between refs, player and coaches.  It also turns the management of the game into rule enforcement roulette.
> 
> I don't doubt that on limited occasions issuing cards can potentially make a situation worse, but that's no excuse for not issuing cards when a foul deserving of a card is committed.  I could be wrong, but I doubt any governing body has every published guidance to that effect, its certainly not in the LOTG.


If one of my players ever pushed a ref, I would expect (and support) the referee to blow his whistle directly in his face, whip out a yellow card, and walk the player backward in the direction of his team bench, essentially daring the player to touch him again.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 6, 2018)

> I don't doubt that on limited occasions issuing cards can potentially make a situation worse, but that's no excuse for not issuing cards when a foul deserving of a card is committed.  I could be wrong, but I doubt any governing body has every published guidance to that effect, its certainly not in the LOTG.


It is a fairly common practice to not give a card on the first card-able foul and instead try to make it clear that there will be no more fouls of this nature. Unless of course the foul is a "serious yellow" or "orange card" or is a cynical foul to stop a promising attack. Red is another matter.

As for the contact, chest bumping and other such shenanigans -yes, pushing - not really. But I understand your point. Some referees can intimidate with size, Mark can't. I know a referee in SD that once players start running towards him, he whips out the yellow card and says "okay, who wants one of these". It works for him, because he has the whole cocky arrogant persona about him, but it wouldn't work for Mark.

Mark doesn't have the physical profile that Mystery Train is referring to, maybe he could have, but at this stage in his life, not really realistic. Mark was a Math teacher, and his refereeing style can be referred to as "The Explainer". I look up to him because that is also my style. Sometimes, I/he can over-explain so it looks like we are losing control of the match, and I sometimes end up getting my own words used against me. I'm sure Mark has learned with years of experience how to avoid that.

The important part of this style was that he first, blew his whistle hard and motioned to give him some space, then he started talking 1 or 2 players, so naturally, in that loud stadium, the other players crowd around to listen. His face remained calm as he firmly stood by and explained his decisions. Of course players will ask "what about that other foul/incident" and he will address every issue as it comes up. Mark stood his ground, never once looked intimidated despite his size, and listened to every argument that was thrown at him. His body language was that the body contact had no effect on him and that he would be unmoved as he physically did not move. Making eye contact can sometimes be a sign of aggression, remember the one game with the (Uruguayan I think) referee who slowly pushed the player away but looked down as he did it. But Marks eye contact had no aggressive connotations.

The advantage of "The Explainer" is that the players feel that they were listened to and heard and they vent and let their frustrations out. They feel the referee is someone they can reason with and work with and possibly understand. The disadvantage is that people think they can manipulate "The Explainer", catch him in a double standard, or that he looks like he is losing control of the match because people aren't taking his word as law the moment he blows his whistle.

The other style, lets call him "The Macho Man" although I prefer "Napoleon". The advantage is that players don't want to mess with him, his calls are quickly accepted (although grudgingly) through fear or intimidation. The game has the potential to go smoothly with justice enacted swiftly and decisively. The referee appears in control because his decisions are his decisions and no one can change his mind. The disadvantage is that the referee appears inflexible and not empathetic. This causes the players frustrations to be pent up, or bottled as they feel like their side is not being heard. The perceived injustices may or may not stack up and the players may or may not lash out or attempt to enact justice themselves (girls especially).

I have seen both styles go horribly wrong, and there are still other styles, each one is unique and personal to each referee as he perfects his craft in his style. I have seen that Macho Man SD lay down the law and control those southern HS boys Varsity games where all they seem to want to do is fight each other every game and I have seen him get things thrown at him with players crying in frustration after the game.

Common perception seems to favor the "Macho Man" style. The local SD refs that are older seem to be partial to the Macho Man style when assigning the top level games, although IMHO, the top referee assignors that assign the pro leagues seem to prefer "The Explainer" style.


----------



## Surfref (Jul 6, 2018)

The best refs don’t just have one style, but can smoothly move between styles as needed.  The problem that I had with Geiger in that game is he took way too long explaining things to the players which allowed players on the fringe of the discussion to cause trouble.  When I have seen him in prior games he was very efficient and there was very little time explaining things to the players and he got the game restated fairly quickly.  I am used to seeing Geiger control the game similar to how Mazic controlled the Brazil vs Belgian game today.  I have always been taught a brief explanation and get the game going so the players are concentrating on playing and not talking to the referee or causing problems with other players.


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## Mystery Train (Jul 6, 2018)

Surfref said:


> The best refs don’t just have one style, but can smoothly move between styles as needed.  The problem that I had with Geiger in that game is he took way too long explaining things to the players which allowed players on the fringe of the discussion to cause trouble.  When I have seen him in prior games he was very efficient and there was very little time explaining things to the players and he got the game restated fairly quickly.  I am used to seeing Geiger control the game similar to how Mazic controlled the Brazil vs Belgian game today.  I have always been taught a brief explanation and get the game going so the players are concentrating on playing and not talking to the referee or causing problems with other players.


I thought Mazic was excellent, especially under the difficulties that come with reffing any game Neymar is in.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> I thought Mazic was excellent, especially under the difficulties that come with reffing any game Neymar is in.


This world cup speaks well for the EPL.
I am tired of all the flopping, crying and just plain old dirty play from many of the south american teams and Mexico.


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## Ricky Fandango (Jul 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> I thought Mazic was excellent, especially under the difficulties that come with reffing any game Neymar is in.


Who is more of a drama queen?

A)  Ronaldo

B) Neymar


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 7, 2018)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Who is more of a drama queen?
> 
> A)  Ronaldo
> 
> B) Neymar


B


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## Mystery Train (Jul 7, 2018)

Ricky Fandango said:


> Who is more of a drama queen?
> 
> A)  Ronaldo
> 
> B) Neymar


Tough call.  I usually prefer Neymar to Ronaldo.  I think Ronaldo gets way more calls from his flops, and I do think teams go out of their way to rough up Neymar, but good god, the convulsions and screaming and rolling and flapping around like a speared fish that I saw from Neymar this tournament won the drama queen crown for the World Cup going away.  It was embarrassing.


----------



## Ricky Fandango (Jul 7, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Tough call.  I usually prefer Neymar to Ronaldo.  I think Ronaldo gets way more calls from his flops, and I do think teams go out of their way to rough up Neymar, but good god, the convulsions and screaming and rolling and flapping around like a speared fish that I saw from Neymar this tournament won the drama queen crown for the World Cup going away.  It was embarrassing.


I agree, but in the preening competition, nobody touches Ronaldo.


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## younothat (Jul 9, 2018)

Dang  #NeymarChallenge  has really taken off
https://sports.yahoo.com/mexican-club-mocks-neymar-hilarious-halftime-contest-video-200942803.html


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## Goforgoal (Jul 9, 2018)

Neymar needs to knock that crap off. His status with me personally took a huge hit this world cup.

On a happier note, I'm really looking forward to the France/Belgium match tomorrow. It should be epic.


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## outside! (Jul 9, 2018)

Neymar's face during his performances reminded me of the sad mask in the happy/sad mask symbol pair for theatre.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Tough call.  I usually prefer Neymar to Ronaldo.  I think Ronaldo gets way more calls from his flops, and I do think teams go out of their way to rough up Neymar, but good god, the convulsions and screaming and rolling and flapping around like a speared fish that I saw from Neymar this tournament won the drama queen crown for the World Cup going away.  It was embarrassing.


Agreed, it was like someone broke his back or something.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> This world cup speaks well for the EPL.
> I am tired of all the flopping, crying and just plain old dirty play from many of the south american teams and Mexico.


The EPL players are killing it.  Killian Mbappe is going to murder Belgium’s backline.  France vs England will be an exciting game full of young talent set to dominate the world!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> The EPL players are killing it.  Killian Mbappe is going to murder Belgium’s backline.  France vs England will be an exciting game full of young talent set to dominate the world!


Yes Sir, I pretty much only watch EPL as far as the Men go, it seems to be a little more of a clean game, I could be wrong.
I picked France from the beginning, but Belgium is full of talent as well.
Do you think Killian is the fastest EPL player? That walker dude can motor as well.


----------



## outside! (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> The EPL players are killing it.  Killian Mbappe is going to murder Belgium’s backline.  France vs England will be an exciting game full of young talent set to dominate the world!


I kind of agree, but this WC has been so unpredictable I would not be surprised to see Belgium win. My son thinks the winner of the France/Belgium game will win it all.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Yes Sir, I pretty much only watch EPL as far as the Men go, it seems to be a little more of a clean game, I could be wrong.
> I picked France from the beginning, but Belgium is full of talent as well.
> Do you think Killian is the fastest EPL player? That walker dude can motor as well.


Mbappe plays for PSG in Ligue One and is probably the fastest player.  Raheem Sterling and Moussa Sissoko are the two fastest EPL players.  I’d take Mbappe over either of them.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

outside! said:


> I kind of agree, but this WC has been so unpredictable I would not be surprised to see Belgium win. My son thinks the winner of the France/Belgium game will win it all.


France is going to win it.  Belgium’s defense is too porous.  Either way it’s going to be exciting. I’m going to watch the game on delay so no posting updates!!


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Mbappe plays for PSG in Ligue One and is probably the fastest player.  Raheem Sterling and Moussa Sissoko are the two fastest EPL players.  I’d take Mbappe over either of them.


I know he doesn't play for EPL, IDK what the hell I was thinking.
I haven't seen that much of him, but he demands much attention.


----------



## espola (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> France is going to win it.  Belgium’s defense is too porous.  Either way it’s going to be exciting. I’m going to watch the game on delay so no posting updates!!


It's 0-0 so far.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

outside! said:


> I kind of agree, but this WC has been so unpredictable I would not be surprised to see Belgium win. My son thinks the winner of the France/Belgium game will win it all.


With Lukaku, de Bruyne, Hazard, Falaini and company I would take Belgium’s Golden generation over any team other than France.  With Pogba, Mbappe, Giroud, Tolliso, Griezmann and Kante as the front 6 with friggin Dembele coming off the bench not to mention a ridiculous defense with Umtiti, Verane, Pavard and Hernandez.  They just have an embarrassment of talent and a coach that knows how to use it.

Vive Le Bleu!!!  They are our oldest allies you know...


----------



## Goforgoal (Jul 9, 2018)

outside! said:


> I kind of agree, but this WC has been so unpredictable I would not be surprised to see Belgium win. My son thinks the winner of the France/Belgium game will win it all.


I'd tend to agree, but I'd also love to see England win it. I really like their squad this year, and it's been fun seeing them work the 3-4-2-1 formation. Although, on the defensive end, it leads to playing Trippier on the wing and Walker more central. I haven't much liked what I've seen from Trippier to be honest, and Walker is better equipped for the wing back role. That said, I feel like it really boils down to Lingard and Ali, two guys that have the tools to make magic happen but can sometimes squander golden opportunities. Sterling is also a question mark, but he can give back lines fits even if he isn't finding the back of the net. I'm excited to see what happens. I think we're going to have a couple great semifinal games and hopefully a close final.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Mbappe plays for PSG in Ligue One and is probably the fastest player.  Raheem Sterling and Moussa Sissoko are the two fastest EPL players.  I’d take Mbappe over either of them.


Mo Salah is faster (maybe not quicker) than Sterling for sure.  Haven’t really seen Sissoko.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Justafan said:


> Mo Salah is faster (maybe not quicker) than Sterling for sure.  Haven’t really seen Sissoko.


I love Mo but he isn’t the fastest player on Liverpool let alone the whole league. Mane is faster than him.  I would take Sterling in a 40 yard dash or at 100 meters.  Sterling is a vicious line breaking machine.  If he was 6 foot he would be unstoppable because his technique is outstanding.


----------



## younothat (Jul 9, 2018)

With the ball I would take Mo Salah over Sterling or Mane

The fastest to the ball?  #1, Cr7, #2 Mbappe,  everybody else....

EA Sports take
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/4470949/fifa-18-fastest-players-revealed/

Liverpool duo Mohamed Salah and Sadio Mane are both penned in with a 93-rating for pace.

The Belgium coaching and tactics could make the difference  if the back line can hold?

Odds are in England's favor but maybe Croatia has some more PK's in them?


----------



## espola (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> With Lukaku, de Bruyne, Hazard, Falaini and company I would take Belgium’s Golden generation over any team other than France.  With Pogba, Mbappe, Giroud, Tolliso, Griezmann and Kante as the front 6 with friggin Dembele coming off the bench not to mention a ridiculous defense with Umtiti, Verane, Pavard and Hernandez.  They just have an embarrassment of talent and a coach that knows how to use it.
> 
> Vive Le Bleu!!!  They are our oldest allies you know...


And then an adversary a couple of decades later when a President offended them by trying to work a better trade deal.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 9, 2018)

The way Courtois is playing between the pipes right now, Belgium's back line doesn't need to be exceptional for them to have a chance.  That guy is in the zone.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> The way Courtois is playing between the pipes right now, Belgium's back line doesn't need to be exceptional for them to have a chance.  That guy is in the zone.


He has been excellent however I would take Pickford.  He has been bailing the 3 Lions out all tournament.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

espola said:


> And then an adversary a couple of decades later when a President offended them by trying to work a better trade deal.


You got issues.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> I love Mo but he isn’t the fastest player on Liverpool let alone the whole league. Mane is faster than him.  I would take Sterling in a 40 yard dash or at 100 meters.  Sterling is a vicious line breaking machine.  If he was 6 foot he would be unstoppable because his technique is outstanding.


Sterling has been struggling lately.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

younothat said:


> With the ball I would take Mo Salah over Sterling or Mane
> 
> The fastest to the ball?  #1, Cr7, #2 Mbappe,  everybody else....
> 
> ...


Mbappe is changing the game.  Next year he will be rated a 99.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Sterling has been struggling lately.


Struggling to finish not to create opportunities. I would still have him in the lineup.  Harry Kane, Dele Ali and Jesse Lingaard get so many opportunities thanks to him and almost any decent ball he has a chance to get to.  That is pretty valuable..


----------



## Glen (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Mbappe plays for PSG in Ligue One and is probably the fastest player.  Raheem Sterling and Moussa Sissoko are the two fastest EPL players.  I’d take Mbappe over either of them.


Mbappe is talented, but his flopping during the QF was an embarrassment to soccer.  Neymar and Mbappe should have been sent home.


----------



## MakeAPlay (Jul 9, 2018)

Glen said:


> Mbappe is talented, but his flopping during the QF was an embarrassment to soccer.  Neymar and Mbappe should have been sent home.


Unfortunately he seems to be picking up a habit or two from his new teammate. Let’s hope Tim Weah doesn’t do the same.  God forbid they take after Cavani in the sportsmanship arena as well.


----------



## Mystery Train (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> He has been excellent however I would take Pickford.  He has been bailing the 3 Lions out all tournament.


Can't argue there.  Pickford is playing with the kind of confidence that England hasn't had in the cage for some time.  I could say Courtois is the better keeper over the long haul but Pickford is playing at a superhuman level in the moment.  I hope he keeps it up, because I am rooting for the 3 Lions.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Struggling to finish not to create opportunities. I would still have him in the lineup.  Harry Kane, Dele Ali and Jesse Lingaard get so many opportunities thanks to him and almost any decent ball he has a chance to get to.  That is pretty valuable..


Pogba is the he one that seems to be hitting his stride right now.


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> France is going to win it.  Belgium’s defense is too porous.  Either way it’s going to be exciting. I’m going to watch the game on delay so no posting updates!!


I am just glad to see 4 teams that play quality soccer. And between them have the lowest average flops per game.


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## Glen (Jul 9, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> Unfortunately he seems to be picking up a habit or two from his new teammate. Let’s hope Tim Weah doesn’t do the same.  God forbid they take after Cavani in the sportsmanship arena as well.


Or Cavani’s teammate - the biter.  Cavani freaks me out; reminds me of the night stalker.


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## MakeAPlay (Jul 10, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Pogba is the he one that seems to be hitting his stride right now.


He does so many things so well and has every tool in the kit including being 6’3.  He is a nightmare of a matchup.


----------



## Justafan (Jul 10, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> He does so many things so well and has every tool in the kit including being 6’3.  He is a nightmare of a matchup.


That and his strength is the difference maker.  Many times he looks like the adult holding the piñata with a bunch of kids around him.


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## Sheriff Joe (Jul 10, 2018)

MakeAPlay said:


> He does so many things so well and has every tool in the kit including being 6’3.  He is a nightmare of a matchup.


He's a beast with some personality, his brothers are pretty funny also.


----------



## Sheriff Joe (Jul 13, 2018)

Is this where soccer is headed?
No Thank you.

*FIFA Orders World Cup Broadcasters To Stop Zooming In On 'Hot Women'  *
By Joseph Curl


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## Zdrone (Jul 13, 2018)

Sheriff Joe said:


> Is this where soccer is headed?
> No Thank you.
> 
> *FIFA Orders World Cup Broadcasters To Stop Zooming In On 'Hot Women'  *
> By Joseph Curl


Sonsofbitches!!  Was one of my favorite parts


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## LASTMAN14 (Jul 13, 2018)

Zdrone said:


> Sonsofbitches!!  Was one of my favorite parts


Doesn’t ESPN do a piece on WAGS of Internstionals! Whose corrupt! FIFA!


----------



## LASTMAN14 (Jul 13, 2018)

Zdrone said:


> Sonsofbitches!!  Was one of my favorite parts


How dare they! These pillars of mortality!


----------



## younothat (Jul 14, 2018)

On France’s World Cup roster, soccer DNA outranks national origins
http://www.hastingstribune.com/sports/on-france-s-world-cup-roster-soccer-dna-outranks-national/article_bed8d5d2-4f96-5185-a0d0-d92462590402.html

"Sixteen of the 23 players on the team come from families that recently immigrated to France from places like Zaire, Martinique, Cameroon, Morocco, Angola, Congo or Algeria. Forward Antoine Griezmann, the team’s leading scorer, is half-German and half-Portuguese. Defender Samuel Umtiti, who scored the goal that sent France to the final, was born in Cameroon. Teenage prodigy Kylian Mbappe is part Cameroonian, part Algerian"

Croatia, with a population of just 4.1 million, became the smallest country to reach a World Cup final since Uruguay in 1950. To give that some context, Croatia has pretty much the same population as Mauritania and Kuwait.  Or locally about the same about of people as the City of Los Angeles 
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44833318

*Will France or Croatia lift the trophy? Vote at:*
http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/france-vs-croatia-world-cup-final.15658/


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## espola (Jul 15, 2018)

VAR shows its value.


----------



## Surfref (Jul 15, 2018)

espola said:


> VAR shows its value.


I was not a VAR fan going into the World Cup, but have done a 180 and see the value for these top level professional games.


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## espola (Jul 15, 2018)

Surfref said:


> I was not a VAR fan going into the World Cup, but have done a 180 and see the value for these top level professional games.


When I watched it live, I wondered at the strange bounce before the ball went out.  Then when the referee called for a goal kick, I wondered even more.  The first replay revealed the ball went out of the defender's hand, so goal kick was the wrong call.  Then it came down to a judgement call between corner and penalty.


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 16, 2018)

So is it too early to consider the lessons for the world cup and how they apply to US soccer?  I'll take my swipe:

1. The possession game: when Spain won the World Cup everyone rushed out to copy it.  But I think the world cup has definitively shown that possession for possessions sake doesn't always get the job done, with Spain scoring a record for possession but being routinely unable to penetrate.
2. The high press: The legacy of Germany's victory still plays out.  The high press is an effective means of countering the possession game, and forcing errors upon the keeper/defenders, as Croatia showed.
3. Negative soccer v. the English long ball: But I don't think a definitive style came out of the world cup that other teams will try to imitate.  France played a very negative game, relying on possession, but also relying on a fast counter attack.  England on the other hand played a long game focused on set plays.  Most of their goals were off of direct kicks or corners, which is something US coaches don't spend a lot of time on particularly on the lower levels. Sure, you can say England was on the weaker end of the brackett and lost, but they also have had success in the U-20 with the same style.  France is also more academy centric (which is why they were able to incorporate and nurture their immigrant style), while England's youth soccer is organized more like our AYSO and rec leagues where everyone can play and talent is identified later.
4. Headers:  Heading was very important in this tournament.  Might we play a price for our pushing back the introduction of headers due to concussion concerns?
5. Defense/Offense: Second tier teams were often able to frustrate possession game teams by emphasizing their defensive back line, including the Spain v. Morrocco game.  While its a problem worldwide, the US doesn't give as much emphasis to training defenders (where the most athletic kids drift the glory positions of 9 and 10).  Similarly, teams like Argentina and Portugal that relied solely on their one world class striker weren't able to advance very far either.


----------



## INFAMEE (Jul 16, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> So is it too early to consider the lessons for the world cup and how they apply to US soccer?  I'll take my swipe:
> 
> 1. The possession game: when Spain won the World Cup everyone rushed out to copy it.  But I think the world cup has definitively shown that possession for possessions sake doesn't always get the job done, with Spain scoring a record for possession but being routinely unable to penetrate.
> 2. The high press: The legacy of Germany's victory still plays out.  The high press is an effective means of countering the possession game, and forcing errors upon the keeper/defenders, as Croatia showed.
> ...


Ronaldo with Argentina and not Messi would've went further than they did.

France has for many years produced World Class players consistently. It was just a matter of having the right coach.

Modric 

James

Ronaldo 

All did an exceptional job.


----------



## outside! (Jul 17, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> 4. Headers:  Heading was very important in this tournament.  Might we play a price for our pushing back the introduction of headers due to concussion concerns?


I do not believe limiting headers at the younger ages was primarily to prevent concussions. The current research into CTE seems to show that repetitive sub-concussive blows to the head have a cumulative effect on the brain. Since the skull is not fully formed for many younger players, I fully support the delaying the introduction of heading to the game. If a serious soccer player cannot learn proper and game effective heading technique after they are allowed to head in games, maybe they are not coordinated enough to play at the next level.


----------



## Messi>CR7 (Jul 19, 2018)

outside! said:


> I do not believe limiting headers at the younger ages was primarily to prevent concussions. The current research into CTE seems to show that repetitive sub-concussive blows to the head have a cumulative effect on the brain. Since the skull is not fully formed for many younger players, I fully support the delaying the introduction of heading to the game. If a serious soccer player cannot learn proper and game effective heading technique after they are allowed to head in games, maybe they are not coordinated enough to play at the next level.


In the context of discussing World Cup competitiveness in a soccer forum, yes, limiting headers might hurt us.  For 99.999% of kids who won't play in the 2026 World Cup, more protection is better.


----------



## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 19, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> 4. Headers:  Heading was very important in this tournament.  Might we play a price for our pushing back the introduction of headers due to concussion concerns?


I do not think that the US will fall behind in headers. The reason is because that is the one thing the U.S. has produced consistent talent in has been our ability to challenge for balls in the air.
There is a reason that the US exports more goalkeepers relative to the other positions. It is because that is how kids train themselves when they are not playing soccer.

If you vacation in Brazil and go to a beach. Instead of beach volleyball nets and games taking over the sand, they have beach soccer and "soccer volleyball". It is no wonder that the players with the best individual ball skills typically come from South American countries.

If you think about all the games our children play on the playground, they are games around tracking balls in the air and gaining position over opponents who are also trying to catch it. Basketball, football, (ultimate) Frisbee, volleyball(sort of) That one game where the ball goes around a pole on a string, that one game where a kid chucks a tennis ball in the air  to a group of 20 kids and the first kid to catch a ball 3 times is the new "king" that gets to throw the ball. And set plays are so similar to an american football style of play. 30 seconds of setup for a short physical battle that lasts 5 seconds. If anything, the fact that we make kids focus on their foot skills might help us in the long run.


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 19, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> In the context of discussing World Cup competitiveness in a soccer forum, yes, limiting headers might hurt us.  For 99.999% of kids who won't play in the 2026 World Cup, more protection is better.


For the organized sports I agree. But when my little brother was in 6th grade, he invented a game that he played with all his friends called "red card soccer". It is a game where only red card-able fouls were allowed and if you took the ball from someone without committing a red card offence, then you would give up a free kick.

Needless to say, it was very popular, even amongst the kids that didn't play club soccer.


----------



## jpeter (Jul 19, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> For the organized sports I agree. But when my little brother was in 6th grade, he invented a game that he played with all his friends called "red card soccer". It is a game where only red card-able fouls were allowed and if you took the ball from someone without committing a red card offence, then you would give up a free kick.
> 
> Needless to say, it was very popular, even amongst the kids that didn't play club soccer.


Interesting reminds me of the underground fight clubs of my day..

My kid gets labeled as a aggressive player sometimes, red card soccer I don't know man sounds like a invitation for broken bones to me but I don't know I guess it could work out among friends or something?


----------



## Grace T. (Jul 19, 2018)

Definitelynotanotherref said:


> There is a reason that the US exports more goalkeepers relative to the other positions. It is because that is how kids train themselves when they are not playing soccer.
> 
> .


Not expressing an opinion on your theory that aerial play in the US should compensate or delayed headers.  You might very well be right...don't have enough data for that.

But a side note: my hunch is the goalkeeper thing might be changing.  The US has produced goalkeepers because, from the list of sports you had besides tetherball and volleyball, kids play catching sports in the US.  The theory has been the US can produce great keepers, even if they get started later in the position, because kids are familiar with catching.  But the balls (particularly the recent world cup and pro league balls of the last 2 years) have become so aerodynamic, and the speed for shots has been breaking new records, that keepers are increasingly finding it difficult to catch.  U.S. keeper training still really emphasizes catching.  There is a theory floating around out there that it emphasizes too much catching and that (as much as the US team's aging keepers) explains why some or our old school keepers like Howard have had a tougher time on the international stage.  Since the girls kicks don't clock in as hard as for the men, it's less of an issue on the girl's side.  Plus keepers are expected now to do much more than just be shot blockers including playing with their feet.  USC (formerly NSCAA) is still recommending kids don't specializing as keepers until age 12....but the European academies are specializing keepers now as early as age 8.  Could be wrong, but there's an argument to be made that the US edge in goalkeeping might not last very much longer (I can make the counter argument too).


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 19, 2018)

jpeter said:


> Interesting reminds me of the underground fight clubs of my day..
> 
> My kid gets labeled as a aggressive player sometimes, red card soccer I don't know man sounds like a invitation for broken bones to me but I don't know I guess it could work out among friends or something?


It's red card soccer, not "go to jail soccer" or "go to hospital soccer". You gotta respect the rules, even in "red card soccer" haha.

One of my brothers friends that played red-card soccer with him became a captain for USD soccer team. Maybe it toughened him up?

As a referee, I have always rewarded physical, aggressive players as long as I deem their challenges "fair". Even so far as to award fouls against them even if they stay on their feet but there is no advantage. On the flipside, the players that go down at a moments contact, I have to double check to myself in my head "was the contact really enough to make him go down? Or did he just feel contact and go down on his own?".


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## Definitelynotanotherref (Jul 19, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> But a side note: my hunch is the goalkeeper thing might be changing.  .


I was a keeper when I played, I did indeed have trouble around age 16-17 when the kids were hitting the ball too hard and I was still expected by my team and coaches to hold on to the ball. My biggest fear was trying to catch the ball, barely missing it, and setting up an easy should 6yrds from goal as opposed to parrying it away for a corner. Alas, I gave up a few bad goals because I tried to hold onto the ball. I imagine more formal training and experience would have taught me to parry the ball more.

My theory mostly revolves around the idea that we pump so much training into our own soccer players, but have had limited results because our kids are not "immersed" into soccer like other cultures are. I am just guessing that it goes both ways and it won't matter how much training and money and stuff the goalies are getting across the pond because they are not immersing themselves like Americans are.

Volleyball and tether ball teach ball tracking, footwork, and positioning. The skill of navigating a crowd is a skill in itself. Do you think the formal goalie training teaches their goalies how to effectively navigate a crowd. Combine the two skills of getting through a crowd and tracking a ball, and you have the goalie skill in preventing a corner kick/set piece goal before the shot/header even occurs.

Latin American countries produce best shooters and midfielders because they glorify the ball skills (even if they nutmeg the player and the ball goes out of bounds, they still get praise for the nutmeg). European players and spectators get a hard on when they see/do a crunching "clean" tackle so they produce decent defenders. (Sorry Hispanics, your defenders usually suck, they are just the wanna be midfielders that failed). And Americans are idiots so they get to be goalies. Also, the position, the goalie, is most similar to the position of "the pitcher" in baseball, which is the most glorified defensive position.


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