# A year in and I'm beginning to hate club soccer....



## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

So a year into club soccer I can see why so many people are jaded and hate club soccer.  I've written about my dear niece's experience....how her team blew up and unraveled slowly despite their having a great coach that really believed in development but didn't win enough.

My son is an '08 that started in Extras.  We liked the Extras, and though it was a bit political, did it for a year.  But I found I had to coach him way too much (which wasn't good for our relationship) because there were deficiencies in his training, and also I had just come up to the limit of my own expertise.  So we drank the koolaid and hopped onto a small indie club.  At first things were great...everyone got along, we hung out together, we talked like we were all a family, had parties, and we were even going to do a trip to France.  My son was to be one of 2 keepers-- we didn't want him playing fulltime between the sticks because we felt his footskills would suffer and we made known from the start it was important for us to get him field time.  But it turned out the other keeper was just a really good gifted player and our best striker too...my son wound up playing as a keeper basically full time because they needed the striker on the field.  My son struggled at first (the jump from Extras to club was hard) but by the end of the fall he was doing amazing and turning even a few clean sheets. It was also difficult for him, because while the team's offense (under the leadership of the lead striker) was amazing, the defense was very leaky, and he was often put in difficult situations which nonetheless forged him into a great player.  Wasn't happy either with the GK training...they had turnaround in the GK trainer slot...their methodology was old teaching the keepers to pick up ground balls with a bent knee....and they didn't believe in the backpass (requiring him to punt the ball).  In the fall, a worldclass trainer agreed to take on my son too (despite his age) which also greatly improved his game, raising it to another level.

At the end of the season we had a discussion with the coaches and said we nonetheless wanted to come back, but hoped they'd get another keeper to split the role (like most of the other teams in the area do).  I should have known something was wrong first of all when the lead striker's twin angrily left the team after a big blow up (because he was sad having sat on the bench while his brother as a striker basically played entire games), but my son had made so much progress we thought they must be doing something right.  Additionally, my son had kicked the tires at one of the large mega clubs during January tryouts.  The coach was thinking of putting him on a silver team, but then my son turned in a disastrous performance in a scrimmage against some older silver boys (he wasn't used to that power of kicks, and at the time too it turned out he was diagnosed with a bit of inattentive ADHD)....to our surprise, rather than look at the entirety of his performance, the coach cut him.  In fairness, if he had been given more time to evaluate my son, the result might have been different or he might have been placed on lower team, but the practices with the 2 teams conflicted, and he knew we were out of time because the old club was pestering us whether we were coming back.  Besides, we still liked our old club.

Well, old club during tryouts brings a new keeper, and we think great....exactly what we wanted, but they start leaking players from the old team, and the coaches suddenly get very defensive and weird with the old timers. Then the first tournament comes...first game the keepers each play a half...new keeper is talented but struggles letting in 7...my son comes in second half and has a clean sheet (despite that his team has given up and he takes about 7 shots) except for a PK which is a dream shot high and to the basket of the corner.  My son has usually outplayed the new keeper in scrimmages and practices too (with a save rate of about 6/10 while the other kid has 4/10).  Second game of the tournament comes...my son starts on the field but is taken out minute 2 and then doesn't play again...o.k. that's weird....this despite that they lose 6-1 and the game result isn't even at issue.   Third game comes and he gets about a quarter on the field, no time in goal.  We begin to suspect the coach may have made an arrangement with the new kid so we begin to look for a new team much more actively.

He's been recruited from time to time by coaches that have seen him in camp, but my limitation is transport...my dad can't drive very far.  We do find a team nearby though and go to tryouts and he gets an offer almost right out the bat.  My son is happy and we do a little celebration dinner.  They also have another keeper, but coach explains they'll split the time, and we are great with that.  Love the new team.  But when it comes to roster him, the coach delays giving us the paperwork and then starts ducking my calls.  It turns out he is overrostered (having made too many promises to too many people) and is looking for ways to cut to make room for my son.  Well that's great, and in the mean time my son has missed practices with his old club, which finds out we are trying out elsewhere, and angrily cuts him.  We go to yet another team, which heavily recruits him, and makes him an offer knowing he is an '08, but we think it's weird that there are a couple of bigger kids on the team...when it comes time to sign him and make the payment they disclose because of those bigger kids, who are '07s...they will be playing up...which for a keeper at this age is disastrous (given the big legs they face with one year time difference).

By now it's also too late to put him into Extras tryouts.  He's now trying out with 2 other teams, both of which want him, and which we like a lot, but neither of which have enough players yet.  So, he may not have  a team for next year.  So I get now why so many of your are jaded and hate the experience....after a year out I'm already exhausted.  I also know some people have great experiences and are lucky to find coaches that nurture and care about the kids...guess we haven't been so fortunate.  I made a lot of mistakes...drinking the koolaid, not seeing the warning signs, trusting too many people and showing loyalty, and not being more ruthless in lying and moving him around.  Lesson learned.  But it's a shame a 9 year old boy needs to learn the harshness of the sport so early, and I only hope at this point he finds a good team so his love of this beautiful sport doesn't die.


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## Socal United (Apr 11, 2018)

Congrats, you have already been through what I would say 90% of people in youth sports go through at one time or another.  I am preparing for my last kid's last year and it has been an exhausting, annoying, frustrating, journey.   Sounds a bit like life....      Don't let it get you down, you just get to be like all of us.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Socal United said:


> Congrats, you have already been through what I would say 90% of people in youth sports go through at one time or another.  I am preparing for my last kid's last year and it has been an exhausting, annoying, frustrating, journey.   Sounds a bit like life....      Don't let it get you down, you just get to be like all of us.


This actually makes me feel better.  The other old timers on our team had easier transitions (not all smooth...but easier).  It makes me feel better knowing we aren't alone.  It's also probably harder because he's a keeper so it's harder to move him around (if you have 2 good ones on a team already, it's hard to bring a 3rd) if there aren't open spots (lots of '07s looking, not many 08s, near us).


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## soccerobserver (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> So a year into club soccer I can see why so many people are jaded and hate club soccer.  I've written about my dear niece's experience....how her team blew up and unraveled slowly despite their having a great coach that really believed in development but didn't win enough.
> 
> My son is an '08 that started in Extras.  We liked the Extras, and though it was a bit political, did it for a year.  But I found I had to coach him way too much (which wasn't good for our relationship) because there were deficiencies in his training, and also I had just come up to the limit of my own expertise.  So we drank the koolaid and hopped onto a small indie club.  At first things were great...everyone got along, we hung out together, we talked like we were all a family, had parties, and we were even going to do a trip to France.  My son was to be one of 2 keepers-- we didn't want him playing fulltime between the sticks because we felt his footskills would suffer and we made known from the start it was important for us to get him field time.  But it turned out the other keeper was just a really good gifted player and our best striker too...my son wound up playing as a keeper basically full time because they needed the striker on the field.  My son struggled at first (the jump from Extras to club was hard) but by the end of the fall he was doing amazing and turning even a few clean sheets. It was also difficult for him, because while the team's offense (under the leadership of the lead striker) was amazing, the defense was very leaky, and he was often put in difficult situations which nonetheless forged him into a great player.  Wasn't happy either with the GK training...they had turnaround in the GK trainer slot...their methodology was old teaching the keepers to pick up ground balls with a bent knee....and they didn't believe in the backpass (requiring him to punt the ball).  In the fall, a worldclass trainer agreed to take on my son too (despite his age) which also greatly improved his game, raising it to another level.
> 
> ...


GT I always enjoy reading your posts as they are always so thoughtful and well composed.  This time I was sad to hear of the challenges but I wish for the best for you and your son. As a word of encouragement he is only 9 and has so many other gloriously fun things ahead of him. Just curious however, what does your son think of all this?


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

soccerobserver said:


> GT I always enjoy reading your posts as they are always so thoughtful and well composed.  This time I was sad to hear of the challenges but I wish for the best for you and your son. As a word of encouragement he is only 9 and has so many other gloriously fun things ahead of him. Just curious however, what does your son think of all this?



He''s crushed.  Cried himself to sleep a few nights.  No longer the same happy go lucky kid.  Likes the new kids of this 4th team we're trying out and the DOC seems really nice and kind...if it doesn't work out I think he will come to hate soccer...


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## gauchosean (Apr 11, 2018)

There will always be team to play on, it is never too late to find one. Went through a team blowing up many years ago with my oldest son when he was 10. It was after tryouts and I thought we were screwed. That is when I stumbled onto something, coaches were not adding players but they were always willing to let my son come train with them if I asked. Many were playing in spring and were often short players so he got to play on several teams as a guest during the spring. He trained with 6 different teams that spring and eventually got offers from 4 of them. Just because coaches say there are no spots doesn't mean things won't change. I learned over the years as team manager things change during the summer and seems like there was always a player or two leaving and new players being added. If you don't find the right fit now, just keep looking for teams to train with. Someone will like your son and need a player. Ask a keeper he could probably play as a guest with a team every single weekend summer. Get a pool player card from CalSouth so he is registered to play and ready to be added to a team whenever you find the right spot.

My son is now 20 a sophomore in college, not a soccer player, I remember the stress of this way more than he does.


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## Simisoccerfan (Apr 11, 2018)

I am stunned that this story is about 9 year olds.  Way too much drama especially for that age.  Just find a team where he can have fun.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

gauchosean said:


> There will always be team to play on, it is never too late to find one. Went through a team blowing up many years ago with my oldest son when he was 10. It was after tryouts and I thought we were screwed. That is when I stumbled onto something, coaches were not adding players but they were always willing to let my son come train with them if I asked. Many were playing in spring and were often short players so he got to play on several teams as a guest during the spring. He trained with 6 different teams that spring and eventually got offers from 4 of them. Just because coaches say there are no spots doesn't mean things won't change. I learned over the years as team manager things change during the summer and seems like there was always a player or two leaving and new players being added. If you don't find the right fit now, just keep looking for teams to train with. Someone will like your son and need a player. Ask a keeper he could probably play as a guest with a team every single weekend summer. Get a pool player card from CalSouth so he is registered to play and ready to be added to a team whenever you find the right spot.
> 
> My son is now 20 a sophomore in college, not a soccer player, I remember the stress of this way more than he does.


Thank you for this.  If it doesn't work out with the 2 other teams this is exactly what we will do.  Can you point me please how I get a pool player card from CalSouth just in case?


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## timbuck (Apr 11, 2018)

Were you showing up blindly to tryouts?  Or did you know someone in advance?  (Another player on the team.  Or make contact with the coach prior to showing up).
You are 100% correct in not wanting your kid to be a full time keeper at this age.  I wonder what would have happened if he tried out without a specific position being told to the coach.
I've found that there are lots of kids at 9/10 years old that want to be a keeper, but a year or 2 later - they don't want to play in the net any longer. So if he shows up to a tryout with a team that already has 2 keepers, there's a likely chance that at some point during the season, 1 of those 2 kids will only want to play on the field.
And if you are at a club with multiple teams in the same age group -  There is a really good chance that one of the other teams will need a keeper at some point.  Keepers can play 2 games per day during the Fall season.  So if he's on the field for his 1st game, he could play in goal for another team for the 2nd game.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Simisoccerfan said:


> I am stunned that this story is about 9 year olds.  Way too much drama especially for that age.  Just find a team where he can have fun.


Wish I could.  I'm not looking to place him on silver elite team or pre DA team at this age.  Most of these are all flight 3.  Would have been fine with him going back to Extras/United too.  Can't go back to AYSO Core, though...the yelling and the drama was worse than club soccer...he'll get bored with the lack of a challenge....and it's like a box of chocolate that you never know what you are going to get (and I don't want to coach him again).  But you are right....way too much drama for a 9 year old....in my mind, he might be better off without soccer at this point.


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## outside! (Apr 11, 2018)

Get your son into Futsal for foot skills. Do not mention he is a goal keeper. If he needs time in goal, have him play indoor soccer.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Were you showing up blindly to tryouts?  Or did you know someone in advance?  (Another player on the team.  Or make contact with the coach prior to showing up).
> You are 100% correct in not wanting your kid to be a full time keeper at this age.  I wonder what would have happened if he tried out without a specific position being told to the coach.
> I've found that there are lots of kids at 9/10 years old that want to be a keeper, but a year or 2 later - they don't want to play in the net any longer. So if he shows up to a tryout with a team that already has 2 keepers, there's a likely chance that at some point during the season, 1 of those 2 kids will only want to play on the field.
> And if you are at a club with multiple teams in the same age group -  There is a really good chance that one of the other teams will need a keeper at some point.  Keepers can play 2 games per day during the Fall season.  So if he's on the field for his 1st game, he could play in goal for another team for the 2nd game.


Yeah, at the mega club and the 07s playing up we knew people in advance, and yes I took the advice from this forum...I did reach out to coach prior to showing up and yes I didn't do the turkey shoot outs.  Two other limitations: in our area there's only 1 mega club in our area for boys and he washed out in the first tryout because of the bad scrimmage and conflicting practice times, and he's a mediocre field player (on our old team not the worst but definately an off the bencher) whose field skills weren't nurtured all year (though I did put him into winter futsal...he did o.k....not great...as a field player) but has talent as a keeper.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

outside! said:


> Get your son into Futsal for foot skills. Do not mention he is a goal keeper. If he needs time in goal, have him play indoor soccer.


I did!  There aren't any competitive programs in our area (would love to get him to Tocque) but have him in a weekend pickup thing.  It helped.  Wish the futsal  season had gone a little longer.


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## gauchosean (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Thank you for this.  If it doesn't work out with the 2 other teams this is exactly what we will do.  Can you point me please how I get a pool player card from CalSouth just in case?


http://www.calsouth.com/en/release-transfer/faq-parents/

You request a release from current club and contact your district commissioner.


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Apr 11, 2018)

I am sorry to hear about this situation. Very frustrating indeed.  Don’t be afraid to have your kid play on a club team full time in net, just supplement that.  Play arena soccer for fun.  Get onto a futsal team (start your own team with just his friends if you can’t find one).  Have him train with his friends.  Offer the local coaches for your kid to go in net when they are doing privates so that the other kids have an actual keeper to shot on.  There will be spots.  Keep training and trying different clubs/teams/coaches, he will find one.  

And I HIGHLY recommend that you (and him) take over planning his development.  Clubs are great, but if that is the end of his soccer exposure then it will have limitations.  Good luck.


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## mirage (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> So a year into club soccer I can see why so many people are jaded and hate club soccer....


Sorry to read GraceT...

You've fallen into the parent trap in all youth sports.  Its not just soccer or just boys.  Its all things competitive with children when parents are involved.  Money/paying really doesn't seem to make any difference.

My perspective, after living through/still in club soccer for 10 years between two kids.

1) Make a decision to stay or move based on what's best for your kid.

2) Once decision is made, don't look back or second guess - you can always change it again later. If plan A fails, go find plan B.

3) Always ask how many on the roster currently and how many does the coach plan to carry before committing.  Also make sure your kid is on the top 1/3 of the team to ensure playing time.  Kids HATE sitting on the bench.

4) Unless you are willing to send your '08 10yrs old son to foreign academy to become a professional player, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER what team you're on, as long as its within the competitive range of your son's ability - nobody cares what team he played for at younger or the win-loss record is (only matters to parents and players but no college coach or scout is going to say what was your record pre-puberty).

5) Plan with end in mind so don't react just to the current situation - what is the big picture?  College soccer?  Just keep him busy through teen years?  Get on high school team? What?

6) You can always find a team to get on.  Neither of my kids ever made a new team by going to the official tryout. Both of my kids just went to the training session where the coach can look at them with their regular team.  Just contact the coach and tell him/her you're looking for a new team and want to come out to workout with the team.  I have never heard of a coach turning a potential player away.

7) Don't take it too seriously and enjoy the ride.

Hope you've vented enough and feel bit better.  Now go do something about it, differently.

Cheers!


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Sorry to read GraceT...

You've fallen into the parent trap in all youth sports.  Its not just soccer or just boys.  Its all things competitive with children when parents are involved.  Money/paying really doesn't seem to make any difference.

My perspective, after living through/still in club soccer for 10 years between two kids.

1) Make a decision to stay or move based on what's best for your kid.

>>>>>>yeah, at first I thought I had.  I didn't want to push him into silver and he wanted to stay with his friends before the coaches at old club got weird.  Didn't wake up to what was happening until the first tournie....I figured it might get back to them and they'd get mad we were looking and missing a bunch of practices so I wasn't surprised when they cut him...o.k. it did surprise me they did it so angrily.

2) Once decision is made, don't look back or second guess - you can always change it again later. If plan A fails, go find plan B.

>>>>yup, though I'm on plan D now.

3) Always ask how many on the roster currently and how many does the coach plan to carry before committing.  Also make sure your kid is on the top 1/3 of the team to ensure playing time.  Kids HATE sitting on the bench.

>>>>>lesson learned on this one. I'll add if you see some big kids add the question....they aren't playing up, right and these are all '08s.  Finally, as a keeper, you don't want a great disparity between the skill level of the 2 if they are 2, but your control of this is limited, since you never know who might walk on.

4) Unless you are willing to send your '08 10yrs old son to foreign academy to become a professional player, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER what team you're on, as long as its within the competitive range of your son's ability - nobody cares what team he played for at younger or the win-loss record is (only matters to parents and players but no college coach or scout is going to say what was your record pre-puberty).

>>>>yup.

5) Plan with end in mind so don't react just to the current situation - what is the big picture?  College soccer?  Just keep him busy through teen years?  Get on high school team? What?


>>>>for him high school soccer....beyond that, if he develops well maybe look at college, but the academic route is also a possibility for him if he can overcome his ADHD issues.

6) You can always find a team to get on.  Neither of my kids ever made a new team by going to the official tryout. Both of my kids just went to the training session where the coach can look at them with their regular team.  Just contact the coach and tell him/her you're looking for a new team and want to come out to workout with the team.  I have never heard of a coach turning a potential player away.

>>>>yes, took your advice re the official turkey shoot tryouts.  The problem in my area is it's retiree heavy with only one mega club and my father can't drive him....he's had many offers to come down from teams in the city proper.

7) Don't take it too seriously and enjoy the ride.


>>>>>hard not to when your kid is crying himself to sleep.

Hope you've vented enough and feel bit better.  Now go do something about it, differently.

>>>>>trying.  all great advice.  thanks.

Cheers!


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## GKDad65 (Apr 11, 2018)

Relax, be happy...he's only 9yo.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

GKDad65 said:


> Relax, be happy...he's only 9yo.


His age actually makes this more difficult. As some else said, no 9 year old should have this much drama. Seriously it's like dating almost...complete with the comeons, blind dates, indecisiveness, lies, anticipation, infatuation and rejection.  There's time enough for that in high school, and if he were in high school, I wouldn't be complaining...it is what it is....but at 9 for freaking flight three seems a bit much.


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## outside! (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> His age actually makes this more difficult. As some else said, no 9 year old should have this much drama. Seriously it's like dating almost...complete with the comeons, blind dates, indecisiveness, lies, anticipation, infatuation and rejection.  There's time enough for that in high school, and if he were in high school, I wouldn't be complaining...it is what it is....but at 9 for freaking flight three seems a bit much.


My son had a difficult first 3 years of club. In 3 years, the teams he was on won 3 games. There were some tears at times, especially around tryout season when he did not make it onto the team with his buddies. If it were me, I would have given up, but my son loved the game and recently told me he also did not want to be seen as someone who gives up. He kept his head down, worked hard and is now on a good team with a great group players (including some of his buddies from back then) and an excellent coach. Keep it fun, keep up the futsal so that he can be a keeper with good foot skills, keep up the GK training and the day will come when he will find the right team (and they will be ecstatic to have him).


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## soccerobserver (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> He''s crushed.  Cried himself to sleep a few nights.  No longer the same happy go lucky kid.  Likes the new kids of this 4th team we're trying out and the DOC seems really nice and kind...if it doesn't work out I think he will come to hate soccer...


Ok wow...so sorry to hear...if this door closes other better doors will open!!!! For what it's worth my youngest "retired" from soccer after her sophomore year becuase she did nto click with the varsity HS coach...she found track and field and has been running happily ever since...hopefully it will work out but if it doesn't there are so many other fun things to do...best wishes to you and your excellent son


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## Mystery Train (Apr 11, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> So a year into club soccer I can see why so many people are jaded and hate club soccer.  .


I feel for you and your son.  I've followed a lot of your posts with interest because my kid is a keeper as well. We need a GK Parent Union! 

Like SoCal United said, this just basically puts you into good company with all the rest of us.  I don't know anyone who just had a sweetheart walk all the way through club soccer.  Most people suffer the drama early and have it smooth out over time.  It's actually better this way than to have an easy ride early and then have this sort of drama later.  I know kids who are Jr/Sr in HS whose club teams disintegrated at the last moment and that is very disruptive, especially if the player is looking for college opportunities.  

We had our disillusionment come in our 2nd to 3rd year.  After first year on the B team, got moved to the A team, did ok but not great, was promised a spot verbally for the next year, then got cut via online roster posting (no email, no phone call, no conversation) day after tryouts where she was the only keeper in attendance.  Utterly devastated.  Went through the process of shopping other clubs and had very similar experiences as you did.  She found an awesome team one age group up that wanted her, practiced for a few weeks with them, they loved her.  She did a showcase with them had one great game.  Coaches were over the moon about her.  Second game, gave up a real howler.  Coaches were like, "It's ok.  It happens."  Third game, it happened again.  "Thanks for coming out, here's her player card."  

Like you, I worried that all this crap was going to ruin soccer for her.  I don't know why, but it didn't.  She kept her desire through it all and even through puberty and the sudden awareness of the opposite sex.  I don't think I can take any credit for that.  She just kept persevering.  Maybe your son will, maybe he won't, and either outcome is totally fine as long as he's doing it on his own determinism.  

I can't really offer you much new advice that you either don't already know or haven't already been told here.  I will say this however, about keepers:  The experience of getting cut because of poor performance did get in my daughter's head.  As a youngster, she played with abandon and aggression and that almighty superpower of great goalkeepers:  confidence.  That was because she was usually one of the top 2-3 players on the team.  She had a coach that didn't punish her for mistakes, and she was the only keeper on the team (we also wanted her to play in the field some, but that never really happened...a topic we can discuss in DM if you want) so she always had the comfort of knowing her starting GK spot was secure.  As a result, she played great.  In the situations where it was known that her spot was questionable or that she had to "earn" her place, she played tighter.  Once she had the hammer put down on her, she started tightening up in every new situation or in every big game, fearing that a gaffe or a soft goal would get her cut.  It has taken a long, long time to build that confidence back.  Whatever you do, you need a coach that is going to let your son screw up, let him lay an egg, get megged on a break-away, have a slow roller go right through his mitts.  Every keeper needs a coach who will let that happen, work on constant improvement, and build their confidence up.  I know you want him to play in the field and split time, but honestly, my daughter's best experiences have come when the coach is committed to her as his/her #1 keeper and not constantly shopping around for the next best thing.  I highly recommend B teams and lower Silver or flight 2/3 teams for goalkeepers.  If your team regularly gives up a couple goals, but the keeper saves 7-10 shots a game, everyone on the team is highly appreciative and the GK feels like a hero.  On the flip side, if he plays for a great team and only faces a couple shots a game, but gives up one out of 2, the looks of resentment and pressure to be perfect can really break a kid.


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## Speed (Apr 11, 2018)

Very sorry to hear your experience. We have been in for 4 years now. 2 kids. We moved over at u12...a little late but I had heard horror stories and wanted my daughter to be really ready. Frankly it was ok, we needed to catch up a little but played one year flight 2 then moved to flight 1. We have had good experiences with all of our coaches and have moved every single year(!) due to coach changes at each club. We followed our current coach to our club we are at now (and leaving) as not one promise was kept. I didn't really feel there was koolaid being served but I guess there was. No hard feelings on our part to either the coach and the club just time for us to move on. Daughter isn't developing and we care more about that more then wins. I  Kind of look at it like looking for a new job: I am sad to have employees leave but know it's ultimately their choice and wish them well.  I know if my employees leave for greener and bigger pastures kudos to me for doing my job well and setting them up for success. Well our coach will not respond to emails, speak to us, etc. By doing he has validated all of our reasons for leaving.  I also agree with what others said, I was willing to do trainings, futsal,guest play until we found the right spot with the right coach. We weren't willing to take a spot just to take a spot. 

I have always done a lot of coach homework up front. Talked with coaches and parents on the team before taking kids out. It has helped to weed coaches out. If I don't think their coach strategy, personality is a good fit for my kid I am not even taking them out. I think it makes it easier on my kids. Finally, not that I would do this,but I want someone that I might invite them over for dinner. They spend too much time with my kid and I spend too much money on the sport for them to be a AHole. There are good coaches out there that are trying to do the right thing. Once you find the good coach keep that relationship strong and healthy. I have stayed in touch with our original coach and he has helped us navigate the clubs and coaches. It has really been helpful. 

Hang in there.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> I feel for you and your son.  I've followed a lot of your posts with interest because my kid is a keeper as well. We need a GK Parent Union!
> 
> Like SoCal United said, this just basically puts you into good company with all the rest of us.  I don't know anyone who just had a sweetheart walk all the way through club soccer.  Most people suffer the drama early and have it smooth out over time.  It's actually better this way than to have an easy ride early and then have this sort of drama later.  I know kids who are Jr/Sr in HS whose club teams disintegrated at the last moment and that is very disruptive, especially if the player is looking for college opportunities.
> 
> ...


Wonderful advice.  Thanks.  My son is the same way.  With the mega club, he played awesome in practices....coach ravved....absolutely have a place for him maybe even silver but definitely on my top bronze if he doesn't cut it (wasn't looking to place him on silver)....he got nervous going into his first scrimmage with the team....my dad told me to ease up on the pressure before the game (which was ultimately a mistake....we didn't know he used that pressure to switch off the inattentive ADD....we've since corrected by giving him a diet coke before the game...but then we hadn't received the diagnosis yet)...more nervous when he saw how hard the 07s kick and the pace of the game....struggled with the backpass which he had learned in futsal and his old club didn't let him do but held in there....had a really great save and quick turnaround throw leading to a goal.....then a howler, then another howler and it was over.

I'm o.k. with him being a FT keeper if he plays with a team that let's him build out the back....one that just let's him shot stop and forces him to punt is an entirely different story....new keeper for the old club is a very good punter....it's the first thing they mentioned about him in their introduction email....he sometimes can even score with one....another warning sign I should have seen.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Speed said:


> Very sorry to hear your experience. We have been in for 4 years now. 2 kids. We moved over at u12...a little late but I had heard horror stories and wanted my daughter to be really ready. Frankly it was ok, we needed to catch up a little but played one year flight 2 then moved to flight 1. We have had good experiences with all of our coaches and have moved every single year(!) due to coach changes at each club. We followed our current coach to our club we are at now (and leaving) as not one promise was kept. I didn't really feel there was koolaid being served but I guess there was. No hard feelings on our part to either the coach and the club just time for us to move on. Daughter isn't developing and we care more about that more then wins. I  Kind of look at it like looking for a new job: I am sad to have employees leave but know it's ultimately their choice and wish them well.  I know if my employees leave for greener and bigger pastures kudos to me for doing my job well and setting them up for success. Well our coach will not respond to emails, speak to us, etc. By doing he has validated all of our reasons for leaving.  I also agree with what others said, I was willing to do trainings, futsal,guest play until we found the right spot with the right coach. We weren't willing to take a spot just to take a spot.
> 
> I have always done a lot of coach homework up front. Talked with coaches and parents on the team before taking kids out. It has helped to weed coaches out. If I don't think their coach strategy, personality is a good fit for my kid I am not even taking them out. I think it makes it easier on my kids. Finally, not that I would do this,but I want someone that I might invite them over for dinner. They spend too much time with my kid and I spend too much money on the sport for them to be a AHole. There are good coaches out there that are trying to do the right thing. Once you find the good coach keep that relationship strong and healthy. I have stayed in touch with our original coach and he has helped us navigate the clubs and coaches. It has really been helpful.
> 
> Hang in there.


Thanks for this.  Hasn't been my approach since we don't have a lot of choices in our areas and he just really wants a team, but if we don't get one, yes I'll take a lot of this advice.  The only thing I'd caution with the friendship thing is that I thought I was friends with the coaches....my dad and their dad hung out....I used my triple AAA card once to help get into her car....I was their biggest booster...they even took my son out bowling.  Things still went sour quickly...I guess it started towards the end of the season when both lead striker and my son went out on injury (the tenor of everything really began to change)...then when the twin left at the last 2 games, and lead striker left right at the beginning of tryouts (leading for us to not go into state cup), things began to go south much faster.  Like I said, when they found out we were looking and cut us, I wasn't really surprised.


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## Nutmeg (Apr 11, 2018)

Here’s my opinion of which no one asked but it’s a slow day around here. Club soccer no matter where you are sucks. It 100% sucks. Now wait before everyone freaks out on me, hold on.  I love watching my players, love the game, love the journey of it and what it has allowed my kids to experience. Good and bad.  That said the trick is to know that club soccer is not and never was created and designed for parents to enjoy it. It is quite honestly Organized and operated by clubs, organizations, and coaches to profit from a ever revolving source of income. That income source is us the parents. We are a necessary by product that those who run this sport are forced to deal with in order for them to make a living. There is an inherent animosity. Their interest rarely are our interests.  If you have a roster at any given time 1/3 is upset, 1/3 is happy and 1/3 don’t know any better. And if your happy just wait a month and you will switch places with the upset group. Now our players if you do your job as a soccer parent, will enjoy most of their overall experience. Coaches are never ever to be trusted, they are not your friends, clubs are not designed to develop your player. They just provide a place and framework for your player to play.  Clubs and coaches are the ocean. As so as you turn your back on it, a giant ass wave comes drags you out to sea and killls you. It sounds bad sure. But that’s the system.


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## Surfref (Apr 11, 2018)

Not all clubs or coaches are just out for the money.  My daughter is in her second year of coaching and went to the same E license clinic as Grace T. in Ventura.  This year she has a G16 team, G9 team and will be the club floater for tournaments that the G16 team is not playing in.  The G9 team will only be playing indoor and futsal, which may sound a little strange.  The G9 team was to be a new club team, but the skill level of the 13 players was really subpar.  Several of the girls had never played and all but 2 players had only played one year of AYSO.  My DD talked to me and was concerned the girls would get destroyed, even at the lowest level of Presidio.  She was concerned the girls would get discouraged from losing and hate soccer.  She approached the club DOC with a plan to keep the team together and only play indoor and futsal and give the families a discount on club fees and DD to take discounted coaching fees.  The parents appreciated my DD and DOC's honesty and agreed with the plan.  Two of the one year AYSO players left for another club. My DD makes $30 per player per month and they practice twice a week with one indoor game per week.  They will start their second indoor season next month and futsal in the summer.  My DD tells me the parents are happy with the setup and the players are progressing good in their skill levels, but most of all having fun.  They lost their first three indoor games, but have won the last 4.  There is always a way to figure out how to get players on a team.  Sometimes the club and coach have to think more about the players than the money.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Surfref said:


> Not all clubs or coaches are just out for the money.  My daughter is in her second year of coaching and went to the same E license clinic as Grace T. in Ventura.  This year she has a G16 team, G9 team and will be the club floater for tournaments that the G16 team is not playing in.  The G9 team will only be playing indoor and futsal, which may sound a little strange.  The G9 team was to be a new club team, but the skill level of the 13 players was really subpar.  Several of the girls had never played and all but 2 players had only played one year of AYSO.  My DD talked to me and was concerned the girls would get destroyed, even at the lowest level of Presidio.  She was concerned the girls would get discouraged from losing and hate soccer.  She approached the club DOC with a plan to keep the team together and only play indoor and futsal and give the families a discount on club fees and DD to take discounted coaching fees.  The parents appreciated my DD and DOC's honesty and agreed with the plan.  Two of the one year AYSO players left for another club. My DD makes $30 per player per month and they practice twice a week with one indoor game per week.  They will start their second indoor season next month and futsal in the summer.  My DD tells me the parents are happy with the setup and the players are progressing good in their skill levels, but most of all having fun.  They lost their first three indoor games, but have won the last 4.  There is always a way to figure out how to get players on a team.  Sometimes the club and coach have to think more about the players than the money.


Not everyone is as cool as your daughter.   Kudos to her for being so proactive.

Were the kids that left the keepers?   That's the only thing that would concern me for switching futsal.  The skill set is very different.  We put my son in futsal to get his field skills up.  They rotated the keeper slot, but he still took to it like a duck in water when it was his turn.  Gave him a good new skill set of k-stops and blocks but it's also made him more willing to go for the block than the catch, which his trainer finds annoying.


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

Nutmeg said:


> Here’s my opinion of which no one asked but it’s a slow day around here. Club soccer no matter where you are sucks. It 100% sucks. Now wait before everyone freaks out on me, hold on.  I love watching my players, love the game, love the journey of it and what it has allowed my kids to experience. Good and bad.  That said the trick is to know that club soccer is not and never was created and designed for parents to enjoy it. It is quite honestly Organized and operated by clubs, organizations, and coaches to profit from a ever revolving source of income. That income source is us the parents. We are a necessary by product that those who run this sport are forced to deal with in order for them to make a living. There is an inherent animosity. Their interest rarely are our interests.  If you have a roster at any given time 1/3 is upset, 1/3 is happy and 1/3 don’t know any better. And if your happy just wait a month and you will switch places with the upset group. Now our players if you do your job as a soccer parent, will enjoy most of their overall experience. Coaches are never ever to be trusted, they are not your friends, clubs are not designed to develop your player. They just provide a place and framework for your player to play.  Clubs and coaches are the ocean. As so as you turn your back on it, a giant ass wave comes drags you out to sea and killls you. It sounds bad sure. But that’s the system.


Yeah, I believed all the hippy dippy stuff about us "being a family" and thought we were friends and was surprised how quickly they turned on us.  Never again.


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## zebrafish (Apr 11, 2018)

Mystery Train said:


> Whatever you do, you need a coach that is going to let your son screw up, let him lay an egg, get megged on a break-away, have a slow roller go right through his mitts.  Every keeper needs a coach who will let that happen, work on constant improvement, and build their confidence up.  I know you want him to play in the field and split time, but honestly, my daughter's best experiences have come when the coach is committed to her as his/her #1 keeper and not constantly shopping around for the next best thing.  I highly recommend B teams and lower Silver or flight 2/3 teams for goalkeepers.  If your team regularly gives up a couple goals, but the keeper saves 7-10 shots a game, everyone on the team is highly appreciative and the GK feels like a hero.  On the flip side, if he plays for a great team and only faces a couple shots a game, but gives up one out of 2, the looks of resentment and pressure to be perfect can really break a kid.


I think this is good advice. My kid was on a team for 2 years without a full-time goalie. They rotated players, so there were some painful moments/mistakes, but all the kids got a good appreciation for the position and the difficulties. This year, they are lucky enough to have a full-time goalie-- now, that goalie isn't as good in goal as the top 3 field players are, but all the kids (and probably most of the parents, too) are relieved and happy to have someone willing to take on the job full-time, even though the player will make some mistakes. So, finding a team that wants a goalie and a coach who is supportive probably will solve many problems.


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## watfly (Apr 11, 2018)

You've had a rough first year and your kid being a keeper, or at least a part-time keeper, makes the the club experience that much tougher.  Our 1st couple of years in club I was dismayed by the behavior of some coaches and the culture of the club.  Club soccer was unrecognizable from when I had played 40 years earlier.  Common sense doesn't seem to apply anymore.  We are very happy where we are now, there are good coaches and clubs out there.  I know some say that the coach is the only thing that matters, but I disagree, the club sets the overall tone plus some clubs determine how many players are put on the roster and when the club decides it is always too many players.
Once you realize that for many coaches and clubs, and even a few refs, hell a lot of parents too, that it is not about the kids, it makes things a little more tolerable and makes it that much sweeter when someone actually makes it about the kids.  Take it with a grain of salt because were in only 5 years, but from what I've seen I think the younger years are the worst.

One thing I've learned about club soccer is take nothing at face value, do your research...and then do some more research.  Good luck!


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## Grace T. (Apr 11, 2018)

zebrafish said:


> I think this is good advice. My kid was on a team for 2 years without a full-time goalie. They rotated players, so there were some painful moments/mistakes, but all the kids got a good appreciation for the position and the difficulties. This year, they are lucky enough to have a full-time goalie-- now, that goalie isn't as good in goal as the top 3 field players are, but all the kids (and probably most of the parents, too) are relieved and happy to have someone willing to take on the job full-time, even though the player will make some mistakes. So, finding a team that wants a goalie and a coach who is supportive probably will solve many problems.


Finding a team that wants a goalie has been pretty hard just because of our area (lot's of '07 teams looking, most of the '08 teams are already doubled up) and there's only one boys mega club (2 girls though).  With double keepers, it's important that they be roughly the same play level.  At our old club, new keeper has a lot of natural talent but has a year less experience and no private trainer, which I think caused problems for the coaches as I suspect promises were made (the other thing that irked me is that they started holding special free goalkeeper practices which in retrospect was to get the kid up to speed, but which they didn't do with my son when he was beginning and struggling).  At the overrostered team, my son was by far the stronger keeper (which put the coach in a do I cut the other kid or don't I situation....to his great credit he didn't cut, but that put my son in a bad place).

The "coach who is supportive" is the even trickier part.  It's why we hung with our old club-- they were really supportive until they weren't [and that really took me by surprise].  The team that recruited him only to tell us at the last minute they'd be playing up scared me....it's apparent they just want a body to play.  My niece's team threw their keeper under the bus....the parents particularly the team manager blamed the keeper for the losses.  Most people don't understand it takes a really really long time to develop a keeper.  You can have a really atheletic kid back there shot stopping but that doesn't mean they are learning to goalkeep well.  Teaching properly takes a whole heck of a lot of time.  My son's trainer, for example, only just got to punting a few weeks back for the first time after 6 months of training.


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## Messi>CR7 (Apr 11, 2018)

Just to add some perspective.  PSG paid €200M for Neymar Jr and made him the highest player in the world.  It's been less than a year and many are reporting that Neymar wants out already.  It's always going to be hard to find a perfect situation in soccer 

If he is only 9, he will have plenty of chance and time to be good at GK (or a field player) at a later age.  What's the worst that can happen if he sits out club soccer for a year?  He can try futsal, tennis, swimming, or just kill a FIFA18 league.  Before you know it, another season will come along.

Good luck.


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## bruinblue14 (Apr 11, 2018)

Sorry to hear you and your son are going through this. I haven't been around club that long, but we've definitely had our ups and downs. Some team related, some parent related, some club related. Sometimes I find that I have to step away for a while during the season or during tryouts when things are difficult for whatever reason. (I have the luxury of pawning off taxi duty to dad.) Then I start to miss watching my kid play and I come back to it. 

Totally agree with the poster above that vetting the coach for personality/style of play is key, but I also feel that sometimes it's just so hard to tell if they are being truthful or not and what one person values in a coach, another abhors. Tryouts are the absolute worst, no doubt about it. We've had much better luck contacting coaches individually and asking to practice with the team.

For what it's worth, my kid is a midfielder who is most comfortable in a passing/possession environment and when we were in the process of looking for a different team at u13, one thing we took into consideration was how the coach allowed the keeper to play. Did the field players play it back, did the keeper roll it out, how comfortable was the keeper with their feet. How far does the keeper play up, would they push up with their team to the 30 or 40 or stay in the box. We knew that if a coach allowed the keeper to play a certain way, the coach's philosophy would most likely be a good fit for our player. I remember one coach we talked to said, "Absolutely, I teach possession soccer." But when asked about how he used the keeper, he was a little surprised and said, "Oh no, we don't play back to the keeper on this team because they're just not ready for that," which basically told me 1) you don't really teach possession and 2) you don't allow your players the space to make mistakes and learn from them. My player's coach for 3 years always said, "Don't blame the keeper because that ball has to get through 10 other players first," so we carry that thinking with us to this day. 

I guess my point is, don't give up. Things happen for a reason. (Trite I know, but true.) Some parents out there will value the fact that your son is trying to learn to be a complete keeper for the future, not just a keeper to get some wins on the small field or in the youngers years. Your boy will find a place eventually that values him for his strengths and gives him the space to work on his weaknesses.


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## OCsoccerdad7777 (Apr 12, 2018)

Nutmeg said:


> Here’s my opinion of which no one asked but it’s a slow day around here. Club soccer no matter where you are sucks. It 100% sucks. Now wait before everyone freaks out on me, hold on.  I love watching my players, love the game, love the journey of it and what it has allowed my kids to experience. Good and bad.  That said the trick is to know that club soccer is not and never was created and designed for parents to enjoy it. It is quite honestly Organized and operated by clubs, organizations, and coaches to profit from a ever revolving source of income. That income source is us the parents. We are a necessary by product that those who run this sport are forced to deal with in order for them to make a living. There is an inherent animosity. Their interest rarely are our interests.  If you have a roster at any given time 1/3 is upset, 1/3 is happy and 1/3 don’t know any better. And if your happy just wait a month and you will switch places with the upset group. Now our players if you do your job as a soccer parent, will enjoy most of their overall experience. Coaches are never ever to be trusted, they are not your friends, clubs are not designed to develop your player. They just provide a place and framework for your player to play.  Clubs and coaches are the ocean. As so as you turn your back on it, a giant ass wave comes drags you out to sea and killls you. It sounds bad sure. But that’s the system.


Amen to this:
"Coaches are never ever to be trusted, they are not your friends"

There are more honest coaches than others for sure but never trust them. 

They are salesmen in sports. Watch the teams you play against and see how the coaches act and style they play. If you like it then take your kid to try out there next year.

They always say the right things: we don't play kickball, development first, our team will be very competitive........


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

bruinblue14 said:


> "Absolutely, I teach possession soccer." But when asked about how he used the keeper, he was a little surprised and said, "Oh no, we don't play back to the keeper on this team because they're just not ready for that," which basically told me 1) you don't really teach possession and 2) you don't allow your players the space to make mistakes and learn from them.


Yeah, the old team gave me that line when I asked then to teach him to play the back.  But his trainer had been showing him how to do it, and in winter futsal he started to ask for it....he could do it (and do it well...even against some '06 RealSoCal girls and with some younger '09 boys)...if you teach it, they will learn it.  The build up line forced the old team to change tactics away from the old punt: instead they and other teams around us had the GK send it to the backs who booted it up to the wingers.   A friend who is a B level coach on the girls side had advised we hang in there...teams wouldn't go back to punting once the build up line was removed....and we were really hopeful that was true, but I guess in this case he was wrong.  But like I said, he just wants a team at this point he can play on, and we're hopeful one of the two teams that wants him will get enough players to play (very different teams....one is all about power training, the other kids from the barrio....both would be different but great experiences if they can make it work).

Thanks all...feeling a bit better to know it's not just us.  We had the ceremonial burning of the old goalkeeper shirt yesterday (his idea to help him move on...it was sad since he loved that thing...he didn't fit into when he first started but had always said as he grew into it that he was proud to grow into it like he grew into the goalkeeping role).    Keep your fingers crossed it works out for him.


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## socalkdg (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Wish I could.  I'm not looking to place him on silver elite team or pre DA team at this age.  Most of these are all flight 3.  Would have been fine with him going back to Extras/United too.  Can't go back to AYSO Core, though...the yelling and the drama was worse than club soccer...he'll get bored with the lack of a challenge....and it's like a box of chocolate that you never know what you are going to get (and I don't want to coach him again).  But you are right....way too much drama for a 9 year old....in my mind, he might be better off without soccer at this point.


My daughter did core for a couple years while playing full time club as a keeper.   She had played Extra and was a top player as a forward   We did this in case she decided she was tired of playing keeper.   I coached the teams during AYSO, didn't know much, but had my daughters help with the drills, I made sure the girls tried different positions, and kept things fun and ended up identifying a few girls that are now on our club team.   Would never give up those couple seasons.

When your kid is a keeper, everything sounds so easy to say half on the field, half at keeper, but it gets difficult. Being on a team with a bad defense can actually make life more interesting for a keeper.  Worst case scenario have your kid train with a keeper coach, and play AYSO for a short season as you figure things out.   Just keep it fun.  Still very young.   My kid didn't even start soccer until she was 9


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> My daughter did core for a couple years while playing full time club as a keeper.   She had played Extra and was a top player as a forward   We did this in case she decided she was tired of playing keeper.   I coached the teams during AYSO, didn't know much, but had my daughters help with the drills, I made sure the girls tried different positions, and kept things fun and ended up identifying a few girls that are now on our club team.   Would never give up those couple seasons.
> 
> When your kid is a keeper, everything sounds so easy to say half on the field, half at keeper, but it gets difficult. Being on a team with a bad defense can actually make life more interesting for a keeper.  Worst case scenario have your kid train with a keeper coach, and play AYSO for a short season as you figure things out.   Just keep it fun.  Still very young.   My kid didn't even start soccer until she was 9


Yeah, if I were up for coaching him we could use this as a fallback, but I'm not.  He's a very stubborn and willful child-- it's part of what makes him a great keeper that he doesn't think anyone or anything can keep him down.  My coaching him became counter productive and a constant battle.  These difficulties are either going to make him rise to the occasion, or he's going to turn on soccer and hate it....he's not going to fade away or just gradually stop playing.

He has difficulty when adults give him conflicting information, especially if he knows it is wrong.  One coach during tryouts a while back wanted him to basket catch a shot that he knew (and his trainer had drilled in him) should be caught with a W catch.  He's respectful and defers to third party adults during practice, but after practice that just ate at him for a good 24 hours.  Another coach wanted him to step forward on the PKs which his trainer had said never do and he knows is wrong....he said yes sir and did it but it just ate at him (he went out afterwards, knocked on his friends door, and insisted his friend take shots at him for an hour in the park so he could save PKs the "right way").   Doesn't help that he's bright.  I just can't imagine it going well for him if we get a daddy baller coach that insists he do something he knows is wrong...that just won't go well....that I can see it making him hate the game.  And for me I'd have to completely stay away...if the coach is clueless it will drive me insane.


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## Messi>CR7 (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, if I were up for coaching him we could use this as a fallback, but I'm not.  He's a very stubborn and willful child-- it's part of what makes him a great keeper that he doesn't think anyone or anything can keep him down.  My coaching him became counter productive and a constant battle.  These difficulties are either going to make him rise to the occasion, or he's going to turn on soccer and hate it....he's not going to fade away or just gradually stop playing.
> 
> He has difficulty when adults give him conflicting information, especially if he knows it is wrong.  One coach during tryouts a while back wanted him to basket catch a shot that he knew (and his trainer had drilled in him) should be caught with a W catch.  He's respectful and defers to third party adults during practice, but after practice that just ate at him for a good 24 hours.  Another coach wanted him to step forward on the PKs which his trainer had said never do and he knows is wrong....he said yes sir and did it but it just ate at him (he went out afterwards, knocked on his friends door, and insisted his friend take shots at him for an hour in the park so he could save PKs the "right way").   Doesn't help that he's bright.  I just can't imagine it going well for him if we get a daddy baller coach that insists he do something he knows is wrong...that just won't go well....that I can see it making him hate the game.  And for me I'd have to completely stay away...if the coach is clueless it will drive me insane.


I can certainly relate to that.  Anything I teach my daughter is wrong by default since she is a better player than me.  But if I show her the same thing on youtube from a pro then it's easily accepted .

In general, I tried not to give soccer lessons to my DD so we can remain BFF.

On the PK, I would say show him some youtube videos of pros giving themselves an edge by moving slightly off the goal line.  Is it wrong by the letter of the law?  Yes.  But that's how the game is played.  My 10-year-old DD already knows to appreciate when someone takes a smart "professional" yellow card to stop a counter.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

Messi>CR7 said:


> I can certainly relate to that.  Anything I teach my daughter is wrong by default since she is a better player than me.  But if I show her the same thing on youtube from a pro then it's easily accepted .
> 
> In general, I tried not to give soccer lessons to my DD so we can remain BFF.
> 
> On the PK, I would say show him some youtube videos of pros giving themselves an edge by moving slightly off the goal line.  Is it wrong by the letter of the law?  Yes.  But that's how the game is played.  My 10-year-old DD already knows to appreciate when someone takes a smart "professional" yellow card to stop a counter.


Totally relate.  

The problem with moving off the line v. not is for a GK it involves trading reaction time to shot angle.  Usually, it is very good for a keeper to reduce the shot angle (if there is no possibility of leaving open a cross or easy pass to an onside second striking player)...futsal players know this and do it all the time.   The problem with moving off the edge slightly is it doesn't reduce the shot angle dramatically but does cost a few microseconds by way of reaction time...studies have now been conducted that show it isn't a great tradeoff particularly if the ball is shot down low.  But that wasn't the issue.  The issue was the coach showed him the old technique of taking a step forward before the dive...that's worse than just trying to get slightly off the line because it costs you almost a full second to get there...but it's the way I was taught back in the day myself ^\__/^


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## MWN (Apr 12, 2018)

@GraceT,

I applaud your desire to have the boy play the field, especially at age 9.  My advice to the parents of any kid that wants to play keeper is make sure the kid plays the field for half the games until U12 or U13 for boys.  The exception being if the father is 6'4" and mom is 5'9, then there is a good chance the kid will be at least 6'2" to 6'3, so foregoing the field may not ultimately hurt.  My son is 14 years old, 6'2", plays up on the 2002 team, and was the only freshman to be called up to the varsity team for the playoff run in HS.  I didn't let him to be a full time keeper until U12.

I would rather have him play with 2002/2001's on a defensively weak team than a strong 2003 team because he will get 4x more shots (often 20 per game) and those shots (harder and faster) will develop him quicker than sitting between the sticks on a team that receives 3-5 SOGs per game.

But ... as you see, coaches have tremendous pressure to field competitive/winning teams (because parents demand it) and kids are their ammo to be spent as needed.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

MWN said:


> @GraceT,
> 
> I applaud your desire to have the boy play the field, especially at age 9.  My advice to the parents of any kid that wants to play keeper is make sure the kid plays the field for half the games until U12 or U13 for boys.  The exception being if the father is 6'4" and mom is 5'9, then there is a good chance the kid will be at least 6'2" to 6'3, so foregoing the field may not ultimately hurt.  My son is 14 years old, 6'2", plays up on the 2002 team, and was the only freshman to be called up to the varsity team for the playoff run in HS.  I didn't let him to be a full time keeper until U12.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but as MT has said, getting a coach to do that is really hard.  If the keeper is already playing 1/2 the games full time in goal (or is playing 1/2 a game in goal), getting them field time is hard because the coach will already feel the need to give the benchers some time (who have had none) v. the keeper (who may have already had a lot, just not on the field).  I would be happy with just some field time and a team that also teaches to play the backpass so his feet get some work.  But in an ideal world, yes absolutely.

Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did.  O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term?  Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue?  Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other?  The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again. My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Yeah, but as MT has said, getting a coach to do that is really hard.  If the keeper is already playing 1/2 the games full time in goal (or is playing 1/2 a game in goal), getting them field time is hard because the coach will already feel the need to give the benchers some time (who have had none) v. the keeper (who may have already had a lot, just not on the field).  I would be happy with just some field time and a team that also teaches to play the backpass so his feet get some work.  But in an ideal world, yes absolutely.
> 
> Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did.  O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term?  Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue?  Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other?  The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again. My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.



p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.


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## MWN (Apr 12, 2018)

@GraceT,

You could respond in a very pleasant manner to the effect that at the U10 level, the guidance from US Soccer is "Every player should play a minimum of 50% of the time in each game." (see, Slide 41, https://www.ussoccer.com/~/media/files/coaches/player-dev-initiatives/pdi-aug2017-eng.pdf?la=en).

What disturbs me is these coaches/program doesn't understand their development responsibilities.

Good riddance.  Sometimes adults don't adult.


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## El Clasico (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.


Grace, you are an enigma to me.  On the one hand, I have seen posts from you over the last year that seem insightful but, mostly, you have been a bid defender of all that is the world of club soccer.  I bet if one were to go back and read all of your 375 posts, you will find that the overwhelming majority of them are in support of USSF, Club Soccer, Club (professional) Coaches, Leagues, etc. Club good, AYSO bad, etc., etc. Now, only 12 months in and you assail the whole system.  Argument after argument (or debate after debate) defending the status quo with posters that have been on these boards for years and have been through a lot of hell, along with the good times and experiences with their kids. You seem like a bright lady which makes it incredible that you have been so naïve.  Now that the you have gotten your turn getting whacked upside the head with the club soccer 2x4, you might now want to give some of them the benefit of the doubt once in a while. I like to tell people that club soccer mirrors real life.  You will meet a lot of good people along the way but when you write a check to someone running a business, you have to believe that they are going to run their business in THEIR best interest.

Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way....but are you sure it is your son who is getting cut from these teams?


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## smellycleats (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.


In the setting of all of these thoughtful posts, this is an oversimplification but...the club does what’s best for the club, always. Youve got to do what’s best for your kid. We earned this the hard way and it was not an easy lesson


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## socalkdg (Apr 12, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Totally relate.
> 
> The problem with moving off the line v. not is for a GK it involves trading reaction time to shot angle.  Usually, it is very good for a keeper to reduce the shot angle (if there is no possibility of leaving open a cross or easy pass to an onside second striking player)...futsal players know this and do it all the time.   The problem with moving off the edge slightly is it doesn't reduce the shot angle dramatically but does cost a few microseconds by way of reaction time...studies have now been conducted that show it isn't a great tradeoff particularly if the ball is shot down low.  But that wasn't the issue.  The issue was the coach showed him the old technique of taking a step forward before the dive...that's worse than just trying to get slightly off the line because it costs you almost a full second to get there...but it's the way I was taught back in the day myself ^\__/^


My daughter has had good success with penalty kicks, above 50% save percentage.  My advice to her has and will continue to be go with her instincts.  Guess or don’t guess go left go right.  Just do what she feels is right at that moment. 

She gave up a goal last weekend.  Partial breakaway with a defender trying to get to the girl shooting. I asked her about it today and wanted to know if she could have done something different.  She said she should have listened to herself and stayed on her line, but a coach yelled to come out.  She did but was caught in no mans land and failed.  She felt at the time the defender might get there and staying ready for the shot from the 18 was the play at the moment.   Too often kids get second guessed or pigeoned holed into doing something that isn’t in there best interest.   Let the kids use their instincts in games, right or wrong.  They build up knowledge based on the experience they get.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

El Clasico said:


> Grace, you are an enigma to me.  On the one hand, I have seen posts from you over the last year that seem insightful but, mostly, you have been a bid defender of all that is the world of club soccer.  I bet if one were to go back and read all of your 375 posts, you will find that the overwhelming majority of them are in support of USSF, Club Soccer, Club (professional) Coaches, Leagues, etc. Club good, AYSO bad, etc., etc. Now, only 12 months in and you assail the whole system.  Argument after argument (or debate after debate) defending the status quo with posters that have been on these boards for years and have been through a lot of hell, along with the good times and experiences with their kids. You seem like a bright lady which makes it incredible that you have been so naïve.  Now that the you have gotten your turn getting whacked upside the head with the club soccer 2x4, you might now want to give some of them the benefit of the doubt once in a while. I like to tell people that club soccer mirrors real life.  You will meet a lot of good people along the way but when you write a check to someone running a business, you have to believe that they are going to run their business in THEIR best interest.
> 
> Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way....but are you sure it is your son who is getting cut from these teams?


Oh I'm sure I had something to do with it....I made mistakes along the way and I could have also meekly taken what they offered and never complained...I'm not so immodest to say I was perfect.  But most telling is only 2 kids from the old team are still there, one is the son of the DOC, and the other is the son of the manager (who is terrified [I mean that literally without exaggeration] of challenging the coaches on anything).  I wouldn't even say ours was the most "dramatic" departure: there were 2 others that were bigger doozies.  Sure, most of the departures are chasing the wins, but it's more than just that from having talked to them (they mock me, with justifications, for thinking I was friends with the coaches).  As to the rest: the mega club was all my kid (it was a doozie of a scrimmage meltdown, the only saving grace of it all that we figured out what was going on with him)...the overrostered club I had nothing to do with it (my father handled-- his connection)....if anything contributed to it was the timing pressure (practices conflicted so we couldn't be in 2 places at once).

If you read my past post, you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.  I'm realistic about the way it works...we have the system we have in place because of the goals we have set as a society...we can't change the system unless we tinker with the goals and we must make choices (soccer can be competitive, developmental or accessable to all/affordable....pick 2).  But I've been critical of club soccer as well: the build out line rollout, the learning through directed play system, the level of knowledge among coaches about goalkeeping, and parents chasing the wins.  I've had some great things to say about AYSO (their coaches instruction is just better, and for the younger I like the guaranteed playtime), and some not so great (a lot of the volunteers in the core program just don't cut it).  But you are right...up until this experience I thought it our experience great and couldn't comprehend why so many (really so many) people were jaded about it....when it fell apart it fell apart real quick....lesson learned.


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

socalkdg said:


> Too often kids get second guessed or pigeoned holed into doing something that isn’t in there best interest.   Let the kids use their instincts in games, right or wrong.  They build up knowledge based on the experience they get.


One of the wisest goalkeeping comments I've read on this forum.  Kudos.  .  

p.s.  it's a bit simple to say there's a no man's land on the one v one.  There are 6 zones: the line; coming off the line slightly (still have enough time to set and time to react, but have the benefit of a smaller angle); no man's zone one (where the benefits of a smaller angle are smaller than the loss of reaction time...but this is a very small zone); K-stop/body block zone (futsal land...futsal players are in this zone all the time and the keeper is only vulnerable to a chip); no man's zone two (where the keeper is no longer on his feet and in the process of diving to the ball...vulnerable to a toe pick or rollover...also a very small zone); smoother.


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## timbuck (Apr 12, 2018)

How many PKs does a 2009 player face in a year?  Maybe 5? (Not assuming finals of a tournament where they would face 5 in 1 game). 
I’m certainly not a gk expert, but if I’m coaching a 2009 goal keeper, we aren’t spending a ton of time on PK strategy. 

I saw a study somewhere that said something along the lines of:
GKs guess right about 50% of the time during a pk. And of those that they guess right-  they only save about 30% of those. 
So if a GK faces 20 PKs, they guess right on 10 of them. And of those 10, they only save 3. 
I think the conclusion was they have just as much of a chance of stopping 3 out of 20 PKs by just standing in the middle of the net and hoping the shooter kicks it right at them or misses wide or over the net.
I’ll search around a bit to see if I can find the link. (It’s also important to note that I believe that 73.6% of all statistics are made up).


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## Grace T. (Apr 12, 2018)

timbuck said:


> How many PKs does a 2009 player face in a year?  Maybe 5? (Not assuming finals of a tournament where they would face 5 in 1 game).
> I’m certainly not a gk expert, but if I’m coaching a 2009 goal keeper, we aren’t spending a ton of time on PK strategy.
> 
> I saw a study somewhere that said something along the lines of:
> ...



Agree.  I wouldn't spend to much time on PK strategy either per se.  PK drills though are good for timing...a goalkeeper needs to fall quickly if they see the ball going to ground, but stay up and take a breadth if it's in the air....they need to learn that the closer the ball is to 90 degrees, the less time it takes.  But keepers are also asked to train a lot of things they don't often use (like the tip over bar).


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## MyDaughtersAKeeper (Apr 13, 2018)

Grace T. said:


> Y
> Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did.  O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term(1)?  Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue?(2)  Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other? (3) The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again (4) . My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.


Why did they treat him the way they did?  I have come to the conclusion it is a combination of not knowing how to develop keepers (since most DOCs were field players), and not caring (what percentage depends on the club).

(1) They don't want him on the field to "develop" field skills.  Do that on your own time (not really kidding).  (2) They do not understand the pressure that keepers face.  I tell my daughter that the pressure will either crush her into dust or create diamond - nothing in between.  A good goalie has to deal with all the goals, they relive them.  It takes time and maturity.  (3)  Not really, they can just throw a field player in net.  An athletic kid can do a passable job.  Is that the same as being a trained keeper? No, but I can't tell you how many times I have had a parent tell me about their kid being able to play in net; without consistent training mind you. My kid can play forward to, and make all the easy plays too.  The position is a grind physically and mentally and I don't think most people really get it. (4) Clubs will ALWAYS do what is in their best interest - it is a business.  It was a sad day when I realized that the club really doesn't care about my kid (call me naive).  Most clubs have plenty of willing customers in line behind you.  And most kids are replaceable (save the 1% of unicorns out there).  

The only people that really understand are other keepers, other keeper parents and keeper trainers. That is about it.    If you are around club soccer long enough you will have a story like this (unfortunately).   Good luck to you and your kid.


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## Mystery Train (Apr 13, 2018)

MyDaughtersAKeeper said:


> Why did they treat him the way they did?  I have come to the conclusion it is a combination of not knowing how to develop keepers (since most DOCs were field players), and not caring (what percentage depends on the club).
> 
> (1) They don't want him on the field to "develop" field skills.  Do that on your own time (not really kidding).  (2) They do not understand the pressure that keepers face.  I tell my daughter that the pressure will either crush her into dust or create diamond - nothing in between.  A good goalie has to deal with all the goals, they relive them.  It takes time and maturity.  (3)  Not really, they can just throw a field player in net.  An athletic kid can do a passable job.  Is that the same as being a trained keeper? No, but I can't tell you how many times I have had a parent tell me about their kid being able to play in net; without consistent training mind you. My kid can play forward to, and make all the easy plays too.  The position is a grind physically and mentally and I don't think most people really get it. (4) Clubs will ALWAYS do what is in their best interest - it is a business.  It was a sad day when I realized that the club really doesn't care about my kid (call me naive).  Most clubs have plenty of willing customers in line behind you.  And most kids are replaceable (save the 1% of unicorns out there).
> 
> The only people that really understand are other keepers, other keeper parents and keeper trainers. That is about it.    If you are around club soccer long enough you will have a story like this (unfortunately).   Good luck to you and your kid.


All of this ^^^^^^  

x 1,000


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## C.A.M. (Apr 17, 2018)

timbuck said:


> Were you showing up blindly to tryouts?  Or did you know someone in advance?  (Another player on the team.  Or make contact with the coach prior to showing up).
> You are 100% correct in not wanting your kid to be a full time keeper at this age.  I wonder what would have happened if he tried out without a specific position being told to the coach.
> I've found that there are lots of kids at 9/10 years old that want to be a keeper, but a year or 2 later - they don't want to play in the net any longer. So if he shows up to a tryout with a team that already has 2 keepers, there's a likely chance that at some point during the season, 1 of those 2 kids will only want to play on the field.
> And if you are at a club with multiple teams in the same age group -  There is a really good chance that one of the other teams will need a keeper at some point.  Keepers can play 2 games per day during the Fall season.  So if he's on the field for his 1st game, he could play in goal for another team for the 2nd game.



See as the parent of a field player and a keeper,  I have no problem with a full time keeper.   It is a position that has a different skill set that must be mastered.   

As the original poster said,  he improved the most when under fire and getting top notch training.   You don't necessarily want to a keeper to have a great defense if you want development and growth.   I know keepers who have only been on great teams and they tend to be the more fragile type who can't handle giving up goals. 

A keeper has to be on a team he can make mistakes on.   I'm talking bad punts,  throws,  blocks, passes out the back and stupid decisions on when to come out.   Keepers need to make mistakes to be great and you simply don't make enough mistakes playing half the game.   

Outside of the practices and games keepers should be doing all the same private workouts that field players do.  Mine works with his older sister who is a center mid.   They only do field player training at them.    They should also have keeper privates.   Why?  Two completely different skill sets and mind states that they must master.   

My keeper has been cut,  overlooked and pushed away at several clubs and he is only 12.   He has also been trained by some great keeper coaches and all but one has been a pro.   His game is way beyond his age and he has beat every coach and team that has cut him.   All this season too.   I feel you when watching these little warriors go all out and be so easily discredited and thrown away.   It is sickening.  It doesn't end.   Ever.   Even as pros they are thrown away so fast.   It's a brutal position that very few people are built to take on.   KO matter how good they can do all the things a keeper must physically,  if the player can't mentally handle making mistakes that cost games,  taking blame even if the other defenders failed to do their job then find another position.  Real talk.   It's not the position for a soft soul.  

When thinking of a keeper,  throw out your field player thoughts because THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.   They aren't sane,  but they are very smart.   ADHD you say?   About right.   Mine is the opposite.   Absolute perfectionist with an intense and unnatural ability to focus,  until he doesn't.   What every good keeper has is an unparalleled willingness to put the body on the line to stop that round ball for no good reason at all.   

Make sure he is having fun being a keeper through the ups and downs.  Make sure he keeps his personality always.   Good luck and welcome to the heaven and hell of club soccer.


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## SoccerFan4Life (Apr 18, 2018)

Sad story but the fact is most parents have one of these stories.   Club soccer is not made for everyone. In other countries they could care less what parents think and parents don't have a choice.   The fact is parents created this club mess.  We all want our kids to get better and we think club soccer is the only answer. We all think our kids are awesome and the fact is that most are not good enough.  

I think that the tide will turn in a few years and club soccer will see a big drop in participation.   Prices are getting close to the $3k per year and there's a point where parents are going to keep their kids in rec or signature level. 

Don't get me wrong, I am  enjoying  the club soccer experience despite the struggles that my family has gone through.  

If your child is average or below average, it's a cut throat type of roller coaster run and you may move clubs around often.


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