# Using another player's card



## sbay (Aug 15, 2016)

We just finished a game in a tourney and while the team we played was usually big I thought nothing of it.  Watching them play there were some clear differences physically.  We lost and after the game ended a couple of our boys recognized some of their players and knew for sure they were in an age bracket older than us.  Nothing you can do about it, but I'm curious how often this happens.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> We just finished a game in a tourney and while the team we played was usually big I thought nothing of it.  Watching them play there were some clear differences physically.  We lost and after the game ended a couple of our boys recognized some of their players and knew for sure they were in an age bracket older than us.  Nothing you can do about it, but I'm curious how often this happens.


Almost 20 years ago, back when we got all our soccer discussions on the long-dead gotsoccer forum, there was a long discussion of a team in Cal SOuth that registered overage players by using false documents (cousins' birth certificates, as I remember it).  They were found out when they played a team that included some of their school friends.  The coaches and club administrators were banned for a long time, the players were required to play a year or two up until they aged out of the youth soccer system.


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## Wez (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> We just finished a game in a tourney and while the team we played was usually big I thought nothing of it.  Watching them play there were some clear differences physically.  We lost and after the game ended a couple of our boys recognized some of their players and knew for sure they were in an age bracket older than us.  Nothing you can do about it, but I'm curious how often this happens.


It's hard to believe this still happens.  I assume you are talking about the FC Golden State team you guys lost to in West Coast.  We scrimmaged a LAUFA team awhile ago that had some amazing size.  I wish there was an easy way to keep this from happening.

Pro sports are filled with huge people so there is no reason to fault a team for picking large talented kids, but to outright cheat on the ages is pathetic.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

Wez said:


> It's hard to believe this still happens.  I assume you are talking about the FC Golden State team you guys lost to in West Coast.  We scrimmaged a LAUFA team awhile ago that had some amazing size.  I wish there was an easy way to keep this from happening.
> 
> Pro sports are filled with huge people so there is no reason to fault a team for picking large talented kids, but to outright cheat on the ages is pathetic.


My younger son's first good team had a player that scored most of our goals and was also the tallest kid on the team.  His documents were challenged at a couple of tournaments, but he was actually playing up a year.


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## Wez (Aug 15, 2016)

espola said:


> My younger son's first good team had a player that scored most of our goals and was also the tallest kid on the team.  His documents were challenged at a couple of tournaments, but he was actually playing up a year.


I'm guessing the majority of complaints are just sour grapes.  I'm referring to the legitimate cheating cases, that sbay alluded to.

Just conjecture, not trying to convict anyone without due process...


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

Wez said:


> I'm guessing the majority of complaints are just sour grapes.  I'm referring to the legitimate cheating cases, that sbay alluded to.
> 
> Just conjecture, not trying to convict anyone without due process...


If you cheat with overage players and win a lot of games or cups, someone will find out -- espola's first law.

Corollary -- The only way to get away with using overage players is to lose a lot, and you don't need overage players to do that.


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## sbay (Aug 15, 2016)

Wez said:


> It's hard to believe this still happens.  I assume you are talking about the FC Golden State team you guys lost to in West Coast.  We scrimmaged a LAUFA team awhile ago that had some amazing size.  I wish there was an easy way to keep this from happening.
> 
> Pro sports are filled with huge people so there is no reason to fault a team for picking large talented kids, but to outright cheat on the ages is pathetic.



I am not mentioning any club or any team.  Please do not assume.   I have no idea if it is true nor would I begin to assume that a kid saying "hey I know that kid from school and he is a year older" is true or not.  No proof No reason to question any coach or club....To be clear.  I am just wondering if this happens often.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> I am not mentioning any club or any team.  Please do not assume.   I have no idea if it is true nor would I begin to assume that a kid saying "hey I know that kid from school and he is a year older" is true or not.  No proof No reason to question any coach or club....To be clear.  I am just wondering if this happens often.


In our club, we had a kid who tried out for and made the roster of one of our teams (BU10 or so).  Only when the registrar tried to sign him up with Cal South did she determine that he was a few weeks too old, due to confusion between the coach and the kid's parents.  

Then we were pressured to put him on the team a year older, even though he really wasn't good enough for that team.


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## gauchosean (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> I am not mentioning any club or any team.  Please do not assume.   I have no idea if it is true nor would I begin to assume that a kid saying "hey I know that kid from school and he is a year older" is true or not.  No proof No reason to question any coach or club....To be clear.  I am just wondering if this happens often.


Very rarely, penalties for getting caught can be harsh and coaches/DOCs/registrars won't risk it, especially the bigger clubs where their livelyhood would be threatened if they got caught.  Kid being in an older grade may not mean he is older. With the new age brackets you are going to have a lot more teams with kids from different grades, the previous age brackets were about keeping kids in the same grade together now they are not.


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## sbay (Aug 15, 2016)

gauchosean said:


> Very rarely, penalties for getting caught can be harsh and coaches/DOCs/registrars won't risk it, especially the bigger clubs where their livelyhood would be threatened if they got caught.  Kid being in an older grade may not mean he is older. With the new age brackets you are going to have a lot more teams with kids from different grades, the previous age brackets were about keeping kids in the same grade together now they are not.



I should have said older age bracket instead of grade.  Either way....just curious about this.


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## forsomuch (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> I should have said older age bracket instead of grade.  Either way....just curious about this.


A lot of kids play up a year, my younger son did until u12. He would also guest with the team his actually age at the same club on a fairly regular basis whenever they needed a player. Probably looked like older player playing down but nothing illegal. With lots of kids on vacation during the summer teams often have guest players which can look like cheating but let's face it coaches rarely ask bad players to guest they usually ask good players and that affects outcomes and pisses people off.


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## GunninGopher (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> I am not mentioning any club or any team. Please do not assume...
> 
> No proof No reason to question any coach or club....To be clear. I am just wondering if this happens often.


It is good of you to reiterate that you aren't accusing anyone of actually doing it, because your original post might have been interpreted that way.

Too often a kid will suggest something, maybe out of blind ignorance, and other kids pile on supporting the claim. You always have to take something kids say with a grain of salt.

I'd be surprised if a team did this on purpose. Well, almost surprised, depending on the club.


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## sbay (Aug 15, 2016)

GunninGopher said:


> It is good of you to reiterate that you aren't accusing anyone of actually doing it, because your original post might have been interpreted that way.
> 
> Too often a kid will suggest something, maybe out of blind ignorance, and other kids pile on supporting the claim. You always have to take something kids say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I'd be surprised if a team did this on purpose. Well, almost surprised, depending on the club.



Yes, I am clarifying.  Not directed at any club or team.  Could be the kid was pissed about the outcome and made the comment in out of frustration.  No assumptions please


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## mirage (Aug 15, 2016)

sbay said:


> ..............We lost and after the game ended a couple of our boys recognized some of their players and knew for sure they were in an age bracket older than us.  Nothing you can do about it, but I'm curious how often this happens.


They may have been last season. Since its the calendar year, Jan~July kids were in fact older bracket than your kids.

Also, if its 12~14 yrs old range, puberty has a huge effect so it may be a case of early puberty too.  I wouldn't jump to your conclusion, based on heresy from kids and drag it publicly like this....


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## Wez (Aug 15, 2016)

mirage said:


> I wouldn't jump to your conclusion, based on heresy from kids and drag it publicly like this....


He didn't mention any names, I did, but I also said this was all conjecture and not meant to deny the teams due process to defend themselves.  It's a discussion about how prevalent people think this is.


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## Socal United (Aug 15, 2016)

espola said:


> My younger son's first good team had a player that scored most of our goals and was also the tallest kid on the team.  His documents were challenged at a couple of tournaments, but he was actually playing up a year.


I saw him just a few weeks ago, he looks the exact same now as he did then.  He was with his girlfriend, my how time flies.

During my son's first season at U7, we had a young man that was at least a foot taller and 50 pounds bigger than every kid.  We carried his paperwork everywhere, but usually just having dad there removed any doubt he was the right age(6'9" 295).

As for how often, I remember a few years ago at U10 our team and a South Bay Force team with Luis Gil were the favorites.  Out of nowhere, a Celtic team started just running over everyone through state cup.   By the 3rd weekend, every parent known to man had done their due diligence including following people home,etc.  Needless to say, they had 4 players overaged and the team was forced to drop.  As was said, losing keeps people from caring.


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## Shottas (Aug 15, 2016)

It still happens believe it or not. There was an extremely talented kid playing a year down, physically he was way more mature than others. Well the opposing team older brother recognized him at a league game. The other club turned in the team and the player is suspended for two years not sure what happend to the coach.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

Socal United said:


> I saw him just a few weeks ago, he looks the exact same now as he did then.  He was with his girlfriend, my how time flies.
> 
> During my son's first season at U7, we had a young man that was at least a foot taller and 50 pounds bigger than every kid.  We carried his paperwork everywhere, but usually just having dad there removed any doubt he was the right age(6'9" 295).
> 
> As for how often, I remember a few years ago at U10 our team and a South Bay Force team with Luis Gil were the favorites.  Out of nowhere, a Celtic team started just running over everyone through state cup.   By the 3rd weekend, every parent known to man had done their due diligence including following people home,etc.  Needless to say, they had 4 players overaged and the team was forced to drop.  As was said, losing keeps people from caring.


The kid I was referring to grew to about average height, but he still had no left foot.


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## Socal United (Aug 15, 2016)

espola said:


> The kid I was referring to grew to about average height, but he still had no left foot.


Yeah, SI.  Such a quiet kid, complete opposite from dad.  His body never seemed to completely recover from growing so fast so early.


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## espola (Aug 15, 2016)

Socal United said:


> Yeah, SI.  Such a quiet kid, complete opposite from dad.  His body never seemed to completely recover from growing so fast so early.


I heard rumors he played pro in Mexico for a while.

His little brother was supposed to be a better player, but I lost track of him after seeing his name in box scores for Palomar College.


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## Surfref (Aug 16, 2016)

9-10 years ago I was refereeing a BU15 game in deep south San Diego east of the 805.  I had just pulled into the parking space when a car with two boys pulled up.  I recognized the two boys as I walked over to check the teams in, so I had all the players tell me their birthday when I checked them in.  Three of the players gave me the wrong birthday including the driver of the car.  I did not allow those players to play since the coach and manager could not produce a birth certificate or another form of ID for the players.  I wrote a report and sent it in to the league.  I heard back from the league a few weeks later that the team actually had four players too old and the oldest was 18.  To this day, if I think there is a kid that looks too old I will check both teams in and have them tell me their birthday.  I have only found one other boy (Inland Empire team) that gave me the wrong birthday and he ended up being a year too old.  Cheating happens and if a manager or coach thinks a kid is too old they need to talk to the referee or challenge it with the league or gaming authority.


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## Wez (Aug 16, 2016)

Surfref said:


> To this day, if I think there is a kid that looks too old I will check both teams in and have them tell me their birthday.


Do you ref in the Southbay area?


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## Socal United (Aug 16, 2016)

espola said:


> I heard rumors he played pro in Mexico for a while.
> 
> His little brother was supposed to be a better player, but I lost track of him after seeing his name in box scores for Palomar College.


I think it was like SD Flash pro, he was down there for about a year after he got done playing with us.  His brother was a better player IMO, but a bit of a loose cannon.  I borrowed him on numerous occasions, he played on the edge and as a good player he was a constant target.


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## Socal United (Aug 16, 2016)

Surfref said:


> 9-10 years ago I was refereeing a BU15 game in deep south San Diego east of the 805.  I had just pulled into the parking space when a car with two boys pulled up.  I recognized the two boys as I walked over to check the teams in, so I had all the players tell me their birthday when I checked them in.  Three of the players gave me the wrong birthday including the driver of the car.  I did not allow those players to play since the coach and manager could not produce a birth certificate or another form of ID for the players.  I wrote a report and sent it in to the league.  I heard back from the league a few weeks later that the team actually had four players too old and the oldest was 18.  To this day, if I think there is a kid that looks too old I will check both teams in and have them tell me their birthday.  I have only found one other boy (Inland Empire team) that gave me the wrong birthday and he ended up being a year too old.  Cheating happens and if a manager or coach thinks a kid is too old they need to talk to the referee or challenge it with the league or gaming authority.


About 15 years ago, we were down playing a game at Montgomery Waller.  We were a U8 team at the time, there was a U10 game playing before us.  It seemed the team we were playing did extremely well when they played at home.  With obvious skepticism, we had a couple parents set up camcorders(remember those) and just sat off to the side intently.  We kept a close eye on the boys that just played as that seemed to be a common occurrence there.  We all sat in amazement as 3 of the boys that just finished the U10 game walked over and sat with the group and proceeded to change into new uniforms.  The warmed up, the ref acted like he checked them in, then we played the game.  Of course, those 3 dominated the game for them and they won the game.  We didn't mind, we had what was needed to prove what was going on.  I speak spanish, so I remember shaking hands after the game and just telling the coach that he should be ashamed, we have it all on video, and that we would make sure the right people see it.  He instantly went on the defensive, but I just walked away.  It was pretty rampant then at that place, soon after they were banned from having games there and they couldn't bring in their own refs.


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## mommato2girls (Aug 16, 2016)

My older daughter just recently played in a tournament and she was playing up a year and they questioned her age. She's 5'5 and a half, age 11. The coach laughed only bc she was his youngest player, I did happen to have ID on me for her but it definitely made me aware that I need to keep her ID on hand for instances like this.


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## Surfref (Aug 16, 2016)

Wez said:


> Do you ref in the Southbay area?


South Bay San Diego


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## Surfref (Aug 16, 2016)

Socal United said:


> About 15 years ago, we were down playing a game at Montgomery Waller.  We were a U8 team at the time, there was a U10 game playing before us.  It seemed the team we were playing did extremely well when they played at home.  With obvious skepticism, we had a couple parents set up camcorders(remember those) and just sat off to the side intently.  We kept a close eye on the boys that just played as that seemed to be a common occurrence there.  We all sat in amazement as 3 of the boys that just finished the U10 game walked over and sat with the group and proceeded to change into new uniforms.  The warmed up, the ref acted like he checked them in, then we played the game.  Of course, those 3 dominated the game for them and they won the game.  We didn't mind, we had what was needed to prove what was going on.  I speak spanish, so I remember shaking hands after the game and just telling the coach that he should be ashamed, we have it all on video, and that we would make sure the right people see it.  He instantly went on the defensive, but I just walked away.  It was pretty rampant then at that place, soon after they were banned from having games there and they couldn't bring in their own refs.


Dang, same field my incident occurred.  They had to reschedule and move the venue.  I was assigned to the original field and just got moved along with the game to MW field.  The team that cheated were not happy with me not letting their players play.  I heard the team was kicked out for the remainder of the fall and the coaches suspended.  I would not doubt that it still happens there.


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## mommato2girls (Aug 16, 2016)

Surfref said:


> Dang, same field my incident occurred.  They had to reschedule and move the venue.  I was assigned to the original field and just got moved along with the game to MW field.  The team that cheated were not happy with me not letting their players play.  I heard the team was kicked out for the remainder of the fall and the coaches suspended.  I would not doubt that it still happens there.


I'm just on the other side of the 805, are you sure it wasn't you that asked about my daughters birthdate


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## nononono (Aug 16, 2016)

*You know what's really nice.....when you play your team up a bracket and the opposing team in the semis has a questionable player on the roster that only comes on the field to sew up games and you beat them. That is nice. Balls in the net always solves questionable calls and questionable players......*


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## Azzurri (Aug 16, 2016)

Under-17 age cheating and FIFA's mysterious MRI tests


http://www.socceramerica.com/article/69952/under-17-age-cheating-and-fifas-mysterious-mri-te.html


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## nononono (Aug 17, 2016)

*Great article Azzuri, great article !*


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## midreams (Aug 17, 2016)

My son is 12 yrs old, 5'9, 125lbs - goalkeeper. He plays up on a 2001 team and fits in great because of his size. We get many comments that people dont believe he is 12, but being that he plays up its not an issue. Next season, we are looking to get him back down to his proper age bracket. Should I anticipate issues? He will be even taller by then Im sure. I suspect we will have to bring his documents if his age is challenged?


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## mommato2girls (Aug 17, 2016)

Mid dreams do you have school ids? That seems to be sufficient. My daughter has a MIL ID card that I carry bc I'm scared she'll lose it but I'm not always there when she plays. I put her school ID in her soccer bag as just in case. Has her birthdate and picture on it.


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## mommato2girls (Aug 17, 2016)

Socal United said:


> You won't have to.  This was at a National League U14 game in Vegas a little over a year ago


Sorry but the tall kid looks more like a u14 to me than the short kid. He looks 10ish. I could post a pic of my girl just like that. Her towering over an opponent. She can't control genetics anymore than either of the kids in that pic.


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## Socal United (Aug 17, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> Sorry but the tall kid looks more like a u14 to me than the short kid. He looks 10ish. I could post a pic of my girl just like that. Her towering over an opponent. She can't control genetics anymore than either of the kids in that pic.


6'3" not your normal U14, just saying...   Our kid was 5'2"


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## mommato2girls (Aug 17, 2016)

5'2 is not a normal u14 either. My kid is 11 and 5'5. That's probably not normal either but its obviously possible. Im sure the kid is aware of his size. I guess I'm just not seeing how it's okay to question kids that are too tall or mature looking, would we all point out how short or small a player is. Hopefully he really was just a tall, developed kid. Either way the kid shouldn't be put on blast, the parents/coaches should.


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## BornToRun (Aug 17, 2016)

Why is this any different than the gymnastics teams who get caught fielding players who are too young because they are smaller and lighter?  No, just because your child is tall doesn't mean they are older, of course.  But you have to admit, there may be cheating.... there is always cheating...  As you are not cheating, then you will not be caught and there is no reason to worry or to complain because someone is trying to police the actual cheaters, right?


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## mommato2girls (Aug 17, 2016)

I am all for catching cheaters, and I won't lose any sleep over it. But posting a kids pic on a public forum and insinuating he's cheating doesn't sit well with me.


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## GunninGopher (Aug 18, 2016)

Socal United said:


> You won't have to. This was at a National League U14 game in Vegas a little over a year ago


*Take that picture down. *

Nobody has a right to post an individual picture of a child without their consent.


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## Socal United (Aug 18, 2016)

mommato2girls said:


> 5'2 is not a normal u14 either. My kid is 11 and 5'5. That's probably not normal either but its obviously possible. Im sure the kid is aware of his size. I guess I'm just not seeing how it's okay to question kids that are too tall or mature looking, would we all point out how short or small a player is. Hopefully he really was just a tall, developed kid. Either way the kid shouldn't be put on blast, the parents/coaches should.


I am guessing you have not been around the competitive soccer world very long.  That said, 99% of this issue is on the boys side, so it is a nonissue for you.  It has to be questioned because unfortunately, it happens a lot more on the boys side than it should.  Any coach, parent, or kid that has been on any boys team has run into this issue.  Just the last 10 years of coaching for me, I would say there have been a dozen instances of this.  As the parent of a girl, this issue has absolutely no bearing.


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## mommato2girls (Aug 18, 2016)

Socal United said:


> I am guessing you have not been around the competitive soccer world very long.  That said, 99% of this issue is on the boys side, so it is a nonissue for you.  It has to be questioned because unfortunately, it happens a lot more on the boys side than it should.  Any coach, parent, or kid that has been on any boys team has run into this issue.  Just the last 10 years of coaching for me, I would say there have been a dozen instances of this.  As the parent of a girl, this issue has absolutely no bearing.


You are completely correct, I know nothing of the boys competitive soccer world. I'm only made aware of this issue bc my own kid has been questioned about her age. And we'll she's a girl, so clearly it does have some bearing on girls soccer or else it would have never been questioned. Look I don't like cheaters anymore than the next person but I can't agree with putting a kids picture up here and using him as an example. The parents/coaches are to really the ones to blame for this stuff happening, not the kids.


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## Zoro (Aug 18, 2016)

Cheating in sports happens.  This is real cheating vs some law of the game breaking thing.  
It is not acceptable, but I don't think it is totally control-able.  We don't require ID to vote, so not surprising some cheat this way (and others).


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## espola (Aug 18, 2016)

Zoro said:


> Cheating in sports happens.  This is real cheating vs some law of the game breaking thing.
> It is not acceptable, but I don't think it is totally control-able.  We don't require ID to vote, so not surprising some cheat this way (and others).


There is a big difference between deliberately planning to falsify documents and running into someone on the course of a game.


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## Smileyone (Sep 3, 2016)

Some tournaments you don't even need to use another card- this weekend U13 team played another team and the ref told us there were 3 U14 players on the other team! No secret .......


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## timbuck (Sep 4, 2016)

Heck, it happens in adult leagues. 
The low level co-Ed league I play in is mostly over 40.  The minimum age is 20 for female and 25 for males. 
We had a guy who wanted to play with his 16 year old daughter.  We told him she's not old enough. So he signed up his 20 year old daughter.  The 16 year old showed up with the drivers license of the 20 year old.


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## Desert619 (Sep 6, 2016)

Some coaches are all about wining not devolping. I saw a coach do this several times and finally got caught. He is no longer allowed to coach.


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