# Discovery NPL Goes to Home/Away



## Woodwork (Aug 3, 2022)

https://socalsoccerleague.org/_files/NPL%20Structure%20Fall%202022_Final.pdf
		


Also going pro/rel.

Amazing that Discovery NPL is now offering a completely unremarkable product and still outcompetes CSL Premier, which had all its games at the Great Park last year (phenomenal fields and location).


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## Grace T. (Aug 3, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> https://socalsoccerleague.org/_files/NPL%20Structure%20Fall%202022_Final.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the boys side quite a few teams shifted to EA2 and Elite64.  And they weren't able to form a couple groups for the youngest due to lack of interest.  Part of the 'discovery' aspect was that it was supposed to be used as a showcase for college recruiting and higher level team (e.g. MLS) but they rarely (if ever?...anyone know if they actually got anyone to go at Norco) got anyone.  And with inflation and gas running as high as it is they got complaints about the drive  (particularly as they bring in teams from up north which declined to do NPL in the past because of  the driving distances so played CSL).  It's essentially now the new glorified flight 1 for SoCal League.

Pro/rel is a mistake and is going to accelerated the drive of top teams away from NPL.  Unless the entire system is a closed loop and has pro/rel, or the flight really is the top flight (MLS Next/ECNL for the older boys) it has the disadvantage of locking players in which means they'll look elsewhere.  If a club has their second or third tier players in NPL, they can't afford to promote the best players because it will leave the team vulnerable to rel the following year which means the top players will have to change clubs to move up.  It will create lopsided results because some teams will manage to hold it together and others won't, and unless it can maintain a prestige factor, it won't be able to attract the top second tier talent evenly across the teams.

CSL is in freefall decline particularly now with some of the northern teams headed to Socal League.


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## Larzby (Aug 4, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> On the boys side quite a few teams shifted to EA2 and Elite64.  And they weren't able to form a couple groups for the youngest due to lack of interest.  Part of the 'discovery' aspect was that it was supposed to be used as a showcase for college recruiting and higher level team (e.g. MLS) but they rarely (if ever?...anyone know if they actually got anyone to go at Norco) got anyone.  And with inflation and gas running as high as it is they got complaints about the drive  (particularly as they bring in teams from up north which declined to do NPL in the past because of  the driving distances so played CSL).  It's essentially now the new glorified flight 1 for SoCal League.
> 
> Pro/rel is a mistake and is going to accelerated the drive of top teams away from NPL.  Unless the entire system is a closed loop and has pro/rel, or the flight really is the top flight (MLS Next/ECNL for the older boys) it has the disadvantage of locking players in which means they'll look elsewhere.  If a club has their second or third tier players in NPL, they can't afford to promote the best players because it will leave the team vulnerable to rel the following year which means the top players will have to change clubs to move up.  It will create lopsided results because some teams will manage to hold it together and others won't, and unless it can maintain a prestige factor, it won't be able to attract the top second tier talent evenly across the teams.
> 
> CSL is in freefall decline particularly now with some of the northern teams headed to Socal League.


Looking at a couple of the age groups, CSL looks to be something like one-fifth the size of SoCal.  Teams are traveling hours to play weaker competition than they would play locally in SoCal.  How long will that last?


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## Woodwork (Aug 4, 2022)

Larzby said:


> Looking at a couple of the age groups, CSL looks to be something like one-fifth the size of SoCal.  Teams are traveling hours to play weaker competition than they would play locally in SoCal.  How long will that last?


CSL seems to be doing what it can by allowing teams to choose to stay in a division if the travel is better.  Teams opting out of Premier for the Gold/Championship group.  Honestly SCDSL/whatever has the same travel problems.  My local OC team in Flight one has to travel to the desert half the time.

Yup, the "Elite 64" seems to have eaten up the top of Discovery teams.  With home/away and relegation I am not sure that the teams moving from CSL to SCDSL got what they were sold.  Discovery is glorified flight 2 and any team that competes at a high level has jumped to some version of fake ECNL instead of Discovery.  What a joke.


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## dreamz (Aug 5, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> On the boys side quite a few teams shifted to EA2 and Elite64.  And they weren't able to form a couple groups for the youngest due to lack of interest.  Part of the 'discovery' aspect was that it was supposed to be used as a showcase for college recruiting and higher level team (e.g. MLS) but they rarely (if ever?...anyone know if they actually got anyone to go at Norco) got anyone.  And with inflation and gas running as high as it is they got complaints about the drive  (particularly as they bring in teams from up north which declined to do NPL in the past because of  the driving distances so played CSL).  It's essentially now the new glorified flight 1 for SoCal League.
> 
> Pro/rel is a mistake and is going to accelerated the drive of top teams away from NPL.  Unless the entire system is a closed loop and has pro/rel, or the flight really is the top flight (MLS Next/ECNL for the older boys) it has the disadvantage of locking players in which means they'll look elsewhere.  If a club has their second or third tier players in NPL, they can't afford to promote the best players because it will leave the team vulnerable to rel the following year which means the top players will have to change clubs to move up.  It will create lopsided results because some teams will manage to hold it together and others won't, and unless it can maintain a prestige factor, it won't be able to attract the top second tier talent evenly across the teams.
> 
> CSL is in freefall decline particularly now with some of the northern teams headed to Socal League.


Discovery NPL has always been promotion/relegation. This isn't new.

Clubs and teams wanted home/away for NPL. No one wants to drive anywhere anymore or pay for parking and gas prices are still high. Post-Covid everyone just wants to play close to home. ECNL, RL, GA, MLS Next, etc, all play home/away. Why should NPL be any different as it is a National League as well but with Regionalized play and National playoffs. 

Expect the National platforms with alot of travel to start changing too. People have had enough. We live in a different world now and the bragging rights of being in a traveling national league are leaving parents broke. Look for all of the leagues to implement changes when it comes to travel. They won't have much of a choice.


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## dreamz (Aug 5, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> CSL seems to be doing what it can by allowing teams to choose to stay in a division if the travel is better.  Teams opting out of Premier for the Gold/Championship group.  Honestly SCDSL/whatever has the same travel problems.  My local OC team in Flight one has to travel to the desert half the time.
> 
> Yup, the "Elite 64" seems to have eaten up the top of Discovery teams.  With home/away and relegation I am not sure that the teams moving from CSL to SCDSL got what they were sold.  Discovery is glorified flight 2 and any team that competes at a high level has jumped to some version of fake ECNL instead of Discovery.  What a joke.


You're funny. Travel to the desert "half the time"? From OC? Maybe in CSL you'd have to do that but SOCAL doesn't have that extreme geography.


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## Grace T. (Aug 5, 2022)

dreamz said:


> Discovery NPL has always been promotion/relegation. This isn't new.
> 
> Clubs and teams wanted home/away for NPL. No one wants to drive anywhere anymore or pay for parking and gas prices are still high. Post-Covid everyone just wants to play close to home. ECNL, RL, GA, MLS Next, etc, all play home/away. Why should NPL be any different as it is a National League as well but with Regionalized play and National playoffs.
> 
> Expect the National platforms with alot of travel to start changing too. People have had enough. We live in a different world now and the bragging rights of being in a traveling national league are leaving parents broke. Look for all of the leagues to implement changes when it comes to travel. They won't have much of a choice.


From what I understand, one of the rationales originally for having things in a central location was to create a showcase environment for recruiting.  If that didn't materialize, then with gas and parking so high, the rationale for organizing NPL that way goes away.  The other challenge (at least in Los Angeles) is field space.  Coast particularly has struggled with it (I've seen some really really bad fields including once a field with metal poles on the corner, mud instead of grass, and the entire pitch slanted on the diagonal and another with its own homeless encampment behind one of the goals).  One wonders if SoCal league will enforce the minimum field standards, which kept a lot of the poorer clubs out of SoCal league for a long time.


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## Soccerdad_562_ (Aug 5, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> From what I understand, one of the rationales originally for having things in a central location was to create a showcase environment for recruiting.  If that didn't materialize, then with gas and parking so high, the rationale for organizing NPL that way goes away.  The other challenge (at least in Los Angeles) is field space.  Coast particularly has struggled with it (I've seen some really really bad fields including once a field with metal poles on the corner, mud instead of grass, and the entire pitch slanted on the diagonal and another with its own homeless encampment behind one of the goals).  One wonders if SoCal league will enforce the minimum field standards, which kept a lot of the poorer clubs out of SoCal league for a long time.


we should see if this is true

"NPL teams will be required to provide fields that meet the criteria established by the NPL Committee. Should a club not have fields that meet the criteria, clubs can rent fields directly from Silverlakes or Oceanside to host their home games"


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## Woodwork (Aug 5, 2022)

dreamz said:


> You're funny. Travel to the desert "half the time"? From OC? Maybe in CSL you'd have to do that but SOCAL doesn't have that extreme geography.


*G07 - Flight 1 East*
Bracket A

Legends FC (CA) Legends FC G07 FC
ALBION SC Temecula ALBION SC Temecula G07 Academy
Empire SC Empire SC G2007 Orange
Murrieta Soccer Academy G07 Pre Academy
Legends FC (CA) Legends FC G07 Gold
Legends FC (CA) Legends FC Temecula Valley G07 FC
City SC Temecula CITY SC TEM G07 Pre-Academy
Spartans FC Yucaipa Spartans FC Desert Girls 2007 Black
SoCal Elite FC G07 BLACK
AC Brea Soccer AC Brea - G07 PDA
Strikers FC North Strikers FC North G07 BF
SoCal Elite FC G07 GOLD
Strikers FC North Strikers FC North G07 LR
Temecula
Temecula
Temecula
Murrieta
Yucaipa

This is 100% worse than anything AC Brea had to do in Gold last year (and they would have been Premier, with all games in Irvine this year in CSL).


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## SoccerFan4Life (Aug 5, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> CSL seems to be doing what it can by allowing teams to choose to stay in a division if the travel is better.  Teams opting out of Premier for the Gold/Championship group.  Honestly SCDSL/whatever has the same travel problems.  My local OC team in Flight one has to travel to the desert half the time.
> 
> Yup, the "Elite 64" seems to have eaten up the top of Discovery teams.  With home/away and relegation I am not sure that the teams moving from CSL to SCDSL got what they were sold.  Discovery is glorified flight 2 and any team that competes at a high level has jumped to some version of fake ECNL instead of Discovery.  What a joke.


 What age bracket?   Glorified flight 2 maybe at the 05 age group  because not too many teams are left.


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## dreamz (Aug 6, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> *G07 - Flight 1 East*
> Bracket A
> 
> Legends FC (CA) Legends FC G07 FC
> ...


I don’t see the Desert in any of those games.


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## VanMan (Aug 6, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> *G07 - Flight 1 East*
> Bracket A
> 
> Legends FC (CA) Legends FC G07 FC
> ...


Strictly from a geographic standpoint, AC Brea being placed in the East is a bit of a headscratcher, especially when that division has more teams in it than any other.  Being placed in South or even West would probably be better.   You should call your coach/club and have them reach out to MR to see if anything can be done.  There's gonna be pushback, but it's worth a shot.


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## Woodwork (Aug 6, 2022)

VanMan said:


> Strictly from a geographic standpoint, AC Brea being placed in the East is a bit of a headscratcher, especially when that division has more teams in it than any other.  Being placed in South or even West would probably be better.   You should call your coach/club and have them reach out to MR to see if anything can be done.  There's gonna be pushback, but it's worth a shot.


Right.  Not my kid's club, but one of my local clubs.

I appreciate that you get the point and aren't focused on pedantics.  This is a two-hour drive in traffic to a burnt turd of a field for kids to play in 105 degree heat.  I'm not arguing regional annual precipitation here.  A burnt turd is a burnt turd.

So let's figure out what flight you are if you are a G07 Slammers Discovery team:


2007U16HB Køge ECNL 2007ECNL2007U16Slammers FC ECNL 2007ECNL2007U16HB Køge ECNL RL 2007ECNL-RL2007U16Slammers FC ECNL RL 2007ECNL-RLL

Girls 2007 Elite 64Matt Sanger

Looks like three flights above you.  Flight 4?


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## dreamz (Aug 6, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Right.  Not my kid's club, but one of my local clubs.
> 
> I appreciate that you get the point and aren't focused on pedantics.  This is a two-hour drive in traffic to a burnt turd of a field for kids to play in 105 degree heat.  I'm not arguing regional annual precipitation here.  A burnt turd is a burnt turd.
> 
> ...


With the drought I think most fields look like burnt turds these days unless they are turf. Venues are overplayed, counties are under water restrictions, school districts lack field maintenance staff and fields are dry and beat up. Temecula is no worse than anywhere else but at least it’s the wine country and the vineyards are nice to visit!


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## Woodwork (Aug 22, 2022)

SoccerFan4Life said:


> What age bracket?   Glorified flight 2 maybe at the 05 age group  because not too many teams are left.


Saw a couple teams that finished 2nd in flight 2 last year promoted directly to Discovery, skipping Flt 1, in the G05, G06 age groups.  But, right after things opened up I saw a lot more happening in the G07 as well, teams that had never played flight 1 going straight to Discovery to fill in the initial 30 or so.  

The top few teams in discovery were legit, though.  But now they mostly left to other leagues, any specialty league that will get them out of Discovery, like E64 or DPL or what have you.


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## Code (Aug 22, 2022)

Have you looked at the ratio of NPL teams to Flight 1 and to Flight 2 in the G06 group?  Completely unrealistic.  The bottom three teams in each NPL region should be given a Pinocchio award at the end of the season.


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## jojon (Aug 22, 2022)

Is the Socal league schedule already fixed? It seems that lower age group still have changes.
Also the website does not show official link.


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## timbuck (Aug 22, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Right.  Not my kid's club, but one of my local clubs.
> 
> I appreciate that you get the point and aren't focused on pedantics.  This is a two-hour drive in traffic to a burnt turd of a field for kids to play in 105 degree heat.  I'm not arguing regional annual precipitation here.  A burnt turd is a burnt turd.
> 
> ...


While this is "kinda" true-  With the various affiliates- its a little bit geography based.
The RL teams will pull kids from the various CDA, South, Sporting, etc.
So some teams train at Great Park.  Some further North.

I'm not sure how well the RL teams do in competition - too many places to look for results these days -  I do know that their discovery teams seem to do pretty well against other (non-ecnl) clubs "top team".  Maybe they move ringers down to get wins.  I haven't personally seen this at Slammers (definitely seen it at other clubs).


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## chipmonk (Aug 22, 2022)

timbuck said:


> While this is "kinda" true-  With the various affiliates- its a little bit geography based.
> The RL teams will pull kids from the various CDA, South, Sporting, etc.
> So some teams train at Great Park.  Some further North.
> 
> I'm not sure how well the RL teams do in competition - too many places to look for results these days -  I do know that their discovery teams seem to do pretty well against other (non-ecnl) clubs "top team".  Maybe they move ringers down to get wins.  I haven't personally seen this at Slammers (definitely seen it at other clubs).


I believe I can answer this. The Slammers E64 team is the Fullerton team that finished top of NPL last year. The Slammers HB team that is still in NPL finished 4th last season and beat the Fullerton team 3-1 during league play. IIRC, The Fullerton team beat the RL team a couple times last season.

Wait, I can't answer the tier question, maybe I'll stop worrying about it again.


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## Woodwork (Aug 22, 2022)

chipmonk said:


> I believe I can answer this. The Slammers E64 team is the Fullerton team that finished top of NPL last year. The Slammers HB team that is still in NPL finished 4th last season and beat the Fullerton team 3-1 during league play. IIRC, The Fullerton team beat the RL team a couple times last season.
> 
> Wait, I can't answer the tier question, maybe I'll stop worrying about it again.


Let me break it down for you.  When the top teams leave to another league, your league is de facto the lower flight.

One of the downsides of being in a lower flight is that you don't have the same opportunity to play the top teams and demonstrate comparable worth, like you clearly enjoy.  Without the opportunities to play better teams, the experience gap widens between the lower flight players and the higher flight players.

Slammers Fullerton was clearly not getting enough from playing in Discovery and took the first chance to jump ship.  Discovery is worse for the loss.

But, if that doesn't bother you or your young player, don't worry about it.


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## chipmonk (Aug 23, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> Let me break it down for you.  When the top teams leave to another league, your league is de facto the lower flight.
> 
> One of the downsides of being in a lower flight is that you don't have the same opportunity to play the top teams and demonstrate comparable worth, like you clearly enjoy.  Without the opportunities to play better teams, the experience gap widens between the lower flight players and the higher flight players.
> 
> ...


Well that’s obvious that Discovery got weaker in this age group with the top 2 teams leaving (Tudela is playing up in the 06) but that wasn’t the question I answered (or couldn’t answer)

They also expanded from 21 to 28 teams which dilutes the league a bit. 

Most of the socal E64 teams were NPL teams last year so it remains to be seen if the competition is better. I believe it will be since all the teams are from the top half of Discovery, but we will see.

Philosophically I don’t like any of these club based leagues, including the ones my kids play in, but that’s a different thread.


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## timbuck (Aug 23, 2022)

Is Elite64 really a better league than Discovery in SoCal?

This looks like the teams that are in:
AYSO United
East County Surf SC
FC Premier 
Las Vegas Surf SC
Legends FC (CA)
Los Angeles SC
Slammers FC 
South Valley Surf
Strikers FC North

Not to take anything away from these teams- I'm sure they could hang with many RL teams on any given day (I feel the same about many of the Discovery teams)-  But it seems like more travel for very little benefit.  Are there more college scouts at these games/events?


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## chipmonk (Aug 23, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Is Elite64 really a better league than Discovery in SoCal?
> 
> This looks like the teams that are in:
> AYSO United
> ...



Yeah, we'll see. Those teams were mostly above average in Discovery last year (except for Strikers), but definitely a few of the stronger teams are still Discovery only (Cardiff and one of the Beach teams specifically). I think the average/median in E64 will be higher than Discovery, but I'd bet the top in each are competitive with each other, just like they would be with top RL and GA teams as well as the average ECNL team.

E64 is new so we'll see if the games/events do get more exposure to scouts or not. Probably yes compared to Discovery, but that's a low bar. Probably not enough to be worth it in year 1 except for the national playoffs, but USYS will probably push hard to get a horse back in the race by year 3 (or it will fold).

Like I said, I dislike these closed club based leagues. It leads to dilution of competition overall.


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## Woodwork (Aug 23, 2022)

timbuck said:


> Is Elite64 really a better league than Discovery in SoCal?
> 
> ...
> 
> Not to take anything away from these teams- I'm sure they could hang with many RL teams on any given day (I feel the same about many of the Discovery teams)-  But it seems like more travel for very little benefit.  Are there more college scouts at these games/events?


Strikers G07 E64 is the old ECRL coach.  I presume many of the players could be from there and maybe a few from the old ECNL team, now that they aren't part of that.  The ECNL team wasn't doing great when they were there so I assume ECRL the same but lower.  ECRL starts with a strike against it for recruiting as it is.  Straight away, coaches are going to assume they didn't make the ECNL team.  If your Club's top team plays GA or E64 or whatever, at least you don't have that strike against you.

But hey the college coaches are all going to be downloading Mark Lewis's Apple app Soccer Rankings so they may be able to tell whether you are on a comparable ECRL, ECNL, GA or whatever even without the head to head.


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## timbuck (Aug 24, 2022)

ECNL-RL, DPL, e64 and Discovery -  Are there any other leagues between ECNL/GA/MLS Next and "normal" club soccer?


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## dreamz (Aug 24, 2022)

timbuck said:


> ECNL-RL, DPL, e64 and Discovery -  Are there any other leagues between ECNL/GA/MLS Next and "normal" club soccer?


It's gotten ridiculous.
Do we REALLY need 6 leagues?

BOYS (and not in order of quality of league or level of competition)
MLS Next
ECNL
EA
ECRL
E64
Discovery

GIRLS (and not in order of quality of league or level of competition)
ECNL
GA
ECRL
DPL
E64
Discovery

When does this madness end?


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## Code (Aug 24, 2022)

timbuck said:


> ECNL-RL, DPL, e64 and Discovery -  Are there any other leagues between ECNL/GA/MLS Next and "normal" club soccer?


Don't forget about EA and EA2.  For ages 2007 and younger, I would move GA down into the alphabet soup between the top league and "normal" club soccer as well.


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## Woodwork (Aug 24, 2022)

Code said:


> Don't forget about EA and EA2.  For ages 2007 and younger, I would move GA down into the alphabet soup between the top league and "normal" club soccer as well.


*CSL Premier cries a single tear*


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