# Question about Gender Transformation in youth sports



## The Big Lewandowski (Jun 1, 2020)

I've heard of a couple younger aged (under 13) kids that are/have transitioned genders.  When this happens, does Cal South make those kids go to the gender team that the child classifies as? I have seen girls play on boys teams, but have never seen boys on girls teams.  So if a girl transitions to a boy, can that child play on a girls team?


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## dean (Jun 1, 2020)

I know of one player that was born a boy but transitioned to a girl that plays on a girls team in NorCal. She more physically resembles a boy right now in her build and stature. She definitely stands out.

I imagine it happens the reverse also.


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## The Big Lewandowski (Jun 1, 2020)

dean said:


> I know of one player that was born a boy but transitioned to a girl that plays on a girls team in NorCal. She more physically resembles a boy right now in her build and stature. She definitely stands out.
> 
> I imagine it happens the reverse also.


Yea I guess so.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 2, 2020)

dean said:


> I know of one player that was born a boy but transitioned to a girl that plays on a girls team in NorCal. She more physically resembles a boy right now in her build and stature. She definitely stands out.
> 
> I imagine it happens the reverse also.


Does this player happen to be an 07?


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## MARsSPEED (Jun 2, 2020)

dean said:


> I know of one player that was born a boy but transitioned to a girl that plays on a girls team in NorCal. She more physically resembles a boy right now in her build and stature. She definitely stands out.
> 
> I imagine it happens the reverse also.


There is a 2009 Girl who is transitioning to a boy in Maryland. SHe is a phenomenal player and does look like boy however. You can find SHe on instagram @jfmoore4


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## soccerfan123 (Jun 2, 2020)

People are correctly allowed to be whatever they want to be. But when it comes to sports you should play the gender you were born to or not play at all.


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## espola (Jun 2, 2020)

soccerfan123 said:


> People are correctly allowed to be whatever they want to be. But when it comes to sports you should play the gender you were born to or not play at all.


I agree, as long as we handle the special cases of birth defects and ambiguities.  What to do with hermaphrodites (about 1 in 80,000 births)?  If they are good enough players, then they can't play on girls teams?


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## The Big Lewandowski (Jun 2, 2020)

MARsSPEED said:


> There is a 2009 Girl who is transitioning to a boy in Maryland. SHe is a phenomenal player and does look like boy however. You can find SHe on instagram @jfmoore4


do they play on the girls or boys team?


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## dad4 (Jun 2, 2020)

espola said:


> I agree, as long as we handle the special cases of birth defects and ambiguities.  What to do with hermaphrodites (about 1 in 80,000 births)?  If they are good enough players, then they can't play on girls teams?


If they have, or had, high testosterone levels, then they should play with the boys.


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## MARsSPEED (Jun 3, 2020)

The Big Lewandowski said:


> do they play on the girls or boys team?


Both


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## messy (Jun 3, 2020)

soccerfan123 said:


> People are correctly allowed to be whatever they want to be. But when it comes to sports you should play the gender you were born to or not play at all.


Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc. 
I doubt it's that big of a deal to permit a former male who transitioned to compete as female in youth soccer. Not gonna really shake things up in youth sports.
The kids won't care, but their weak and fearful parents might.


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## espola (Jun 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc.
> I doubt it's that big of a deal to permit a former male who transitioned to compete as female in youth soccer. Not gonna really shake things up in youth sports.
> The kids won't care, but their weak and fearful parents might.


It's not illegal for parents to hire a doctor to give their children hormone treatments up until the age where they are competing in sports subject to a PED-control program.  Usually, it is something like HGH for short kids, but that is not all that happens.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 3, 2020)

espola said:


> It's not illegal for parents to hire a doctor to give their children hormone treatments up until the age where they are competing in sports subject to a PED-control program.  Usually, it is something like HGH for short kids, but that is not all that happens.


You still researching those innocent criminals?  I notice you've been hiding.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jun 3, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If they have, or had, high testosterone levels, then they should play with the boys.


And if it's really, really high, they shuold


messy said:


> Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc.


Seemed? It's very well documented - by the East Germans no less and the improvements in their times was unprecedented. I remember Shirley Babashov's interview stating that when she walked into the locker room at the 1976 Olympics. She heard voices and thought it was a co-ed locker room. It was the East German women's swimmers.


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## dad4 (Jun 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc.
> I doubt it's that big of a deal to permit a former male who transitioned to compete as female in youth soccer. Not gonna really shake things up in youth sports.
> The kids won't care, but their weak and fearful parents might.


Name calling others weak and fearful doesn’t help.  

High testosterone levels matter.   For some sports- cycling, sprinting, wrestling, girls flag football, the impact of tripling the testosterone levels is very significant.   We have women’s weight lifting record that will never be broken.  The women who set them were on testosterone, and had muscle mass they could never have built without it.   Lance Armstrong won several titles by cheating with testosterone boosters.  It is ridiculous to pretend that high testosterone levels are not a factor in sports.  The question is how long does the effect last and does transitioning reduce the effect to the point that it is fair for trans females to compete as female.

A good study on the effects of transition on athletes would help.  I’m not sure there is any valid way to do such a study.  The numbers are so small, and the possibility for complicating factors is so large.  For example, there has to be a psychological effect on effort put into training, but we don’t know which way it goes.   ( An athlete might train extra hard so she can fit in by helping her team.  Or she might avoid the weight room so that she looks less male.)

It also matters that, among youth, the word transition does not necessarily mean surgery.  You are often talking about an athlete who has culturally transitioned, is on hormones, but has testes.  Hence the testosterone question.


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## kickingandscreaming (Jun 3, 2020)

dad4 said:


> If they have, or had, high testosterone levels, then they should play with the boys.


And if it's really, really high, they should cycle with Floyd Landis ;-)


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## Ellejustus (Jun 3, 2020)

Just have more co-ed soccer leagues.  My son played in one with AYSO in 7th grade and it was fun.  It would help the boys treat the girls better and the girls can play with the boys.  I have no problem with that and I think it would be cool.  Maybe have 5 males and 5 females and GK can be either gender.  I played co-ed adult league with my wife, her dad and sister and it was a blast.  I played GK btw.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED* (Jun 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc.
> I doubt it's that big of a deal to permit a former male who transitioned to compete as female in youth soccer. Not gonna really shake things up in youth sports.
> The kids won't care, but their weak and fearful parents might.


Well, if YOU doubt it, that's good enough for me.  I'm just glad you're here speaking up for millions of girls in our country.  Saves the rest of us a lot of fucking time.


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## espola (Jun 3, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> And if it's really, really high, they should cycle with Floyd Landis ;-)


Landis' total testosterone levels on the day in question were unusually high for him but within the established range of healthy male athletes.  What did him in was the trace chemicals that are a chemical fingerprint of artificial testosterone.


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## Emma (Jun 3, 2020)

messy said:


> Have they done studies as to the advantages for a male at birth who transitions and competes as female? Years ago, the East Germans famously would "cheat" with their hormone treatment of female athletes, and it seemed to make them superior as swimmers, etc.
> I doubt it's that big of a deal to permit a former male who transitioned to compete as female in youth soccer. Not gonna really shake things up in youth sports.
> The kids won't care, but their weak and fearful parents might.


It is not an issue of fear for most parents, it's an issue of fairness.  Can female athletes fairly compete with transitioned athletes?   The reasons why girls are allowed to compete with boys is because they don't have a physical competitive advantage over boys while boys, with their testosterone and body /bone structure do have a physical advantage. 
You are wrong to think that the kids won't/don't care.  Competitive girls/women care when they tirelessly work hard and are unable to compete.   This is already happening as female athletes at all level are suing to prevent it.  

On one hand, how important is sports that we must exclude a small group of people who have transitioned and would like to live their life to the fullest.   On the other hand, how will genetically born females be able to compete and live their life to the fullest if they will always be at a disadvantage physically?


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## mid10 (Jun 3, 2020)

kickingandscreaming said:


> And if it's really, really high, they shuold
> 
> Seemed? It's very well documented - by the East Germans no less and the improvements in their times was unprecedented. I remember Shirley Babashov's interview stating that when she walked into the locker room at the 1976 Olympics. She heard voices and thought it was a co-ed locker room. It was the East German women's swimmers.











						Health consequences of PEDs continue to plague ex-East German athletes - Global Sport Matters
					

East German athletes forced to take steroids suffered damage to their bodies. Many are seeking compensation for the continued aftereffects.




					globalsportmatters.com


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## mid10 (Jun 3, 2020)

dad4 said:


> Name calling others weak and fearful doesn’t help.
> 
> High testosterone levels matter.   For some sports- cycling, sprinting, wrestling, girls flag football, the impact of tripling the testosterone levels is very significant.   We have women’s weight lifting record that will never be broken.  The women who set them were on testosterone, and had muscle mass they could never have built without it.   Lance Armstrong won several titles by cheating with testosterone boosters.  It is ridiculous to pretend that high testosterone levels are not a factor in sports.  The question is how long does the effect last and does transitioning reduce the effect to the point that it is fair for trans females to compete as female.
> 
> ...











						The complicated truth about testosterone’s effect on athletic performance
					

The debate over whether to allow female athletes with high testosterone to compete with other women has been heated, but not backed by a lot of science. That's because there simply isn't much out there, though that's not to say we can't draw some important conclusions from what we do know.




					www.popsci.com


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## kickingandscreaming (Jun 3, 2020)

mid10 said:


> Health consequences of PEDs continue to plague ex-East German athletes - Global Sport Matters
> 
> 
> East German athletes forced to take steroids suffered damage to their bodies. Many are seeking compensation for the continued aftereffects.
> ...


Yeah, it's sad.


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## tjinaz (Jun 3, 2020)

Emma said:


> It is not an issue of fear for most parents, it's an issue of fairness.  Can female athletes fairly compete with transitioned athletes?   The reasons why girls are allowed to compete with boys is because they don't have a physical competitive advantage over boys while boys, with their testosterone and body /bone structure do have a physical advantage.
> You are wrong to think that the kids won't/don't care.  Competitive girls/women care when they tirelessly work hard and are unable to compete.   This is already happening as female athletes at all level are suing to prevent it.
> 
> On one hand, how important is sports that we must exclude a small group of people who have transitioned and would like to live their life to the fullest.   On the other hand, how will genetically born females be able to compete and live their life to the fullest if they will always be at a disadvantage physically?


Going to be interesting when the first male to female transition player goes to uswnt.  Might ruffle some feathers.  Saw a girl from Idaho Thorns 07G ECNL team that was really good.  She may be the one.


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## soccerfan123 (Jun 3, 2020)

high level men and teens are far stronger and more athletic than women. The USMNT sucks but would beat the World Champion USWNT 15-0. It's both a fairness issue and safety issue. and yeah the players do care.


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## socalkdg (Jun 4, 2020)

soccerfan123 said:


> high level men and teens are far stronger and more athletic than women. The USMNT sucks but would beat the World Champion USWNT 15-0. It's both a fairness issue and safety issue. and yeah the players do care.


The USMNT U16 team would beat the USWNT.


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## espola (Jun 4, 2020)

socalkdg said:


> The USMNT U16 team would beat the USWNT.


The Cal South 16-year-old ODP team regularly beat the USWNT (although, in fairness, some of the big-name ladies had the day off and ALL the boys showed up).


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