# Cal... What happened?



## Supermodel56

Why is Cal women's soccer so bad? Didn't they used to be a powerhouse? What happened?


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## espola

Supermodel56 said:


> Why is Cal women's soccer so bad? Didn't they used to be a powerhouse? What happened?


Just guessing - academics?


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## Zerodenero

Supermodel56 said:


> Why is Cal women's soccer so bad? Didn't they used to be a powerhouse? What happened?


Superma- Ive been wanting to understand that for years. Conceptually, it feels like they should be there w/ucla and Stanford.....reality, Not so much. 

??


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## Supermodel56

Just a quick search and academically they tanked to #37 with overall US news ranking at 22... they used to be top 10... yikes!


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## GTS

Probably gonna get better results this season.

https://calbears.com/news/2018/11/14/womens-soccer-bears-bring-in-top-10-class.aspx


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## eastbaysoccer

GTS said:


> Probably gonna get better results this season.
> 
> https://calbears.com/news/2018/11/14/womens-soccer-bears-bring-in-top-10-class.aspx


Cal will struggle again.  Ties to Davis, losses to UCSB were black eyes.  The new class will not help CAL for another 1 to 2 years at which point Neil will likely be gone.  Oregon getting better and may win this year.  Stanford, UCLA, USC, Wash State better.  No excuse for CAL not to routinely make 2nd round every year.


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## oh canada

GTS said:


> Probably gonna get better results this season.
> 
> https://calbears.com/news/2018/11/14/womens-soccer-bears-bring-in-top-10-class.aspx


when your entire class comes from only 3 clubs, and all in your own state, what does that say about your recruiting?  i'm sure these girls are good, don't get me wrong, I just find it curious and unusual how limited in scope the recruitment seems.  UCLA, FSU, etc. have girls from outside the country, let alone outside their state.


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## espola

eastbaysoccer said:


> No excuse for CAL not to routinely make 2nd round every year.


Is Golden Bear Koolaid yellow?  You might want to have that checked.


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## Dubs

Incoming recruiting classes for 2020, 2021 and 2022 are super strong and will contend.


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## eastbaysoccer

Dubs said:


> Incoming recruiting classes for 2020, 2021 and 2022 are super strong and will contend.


So is every pac-12 class.  You have no idea if any of those girls pan out.  The current team has wnt players.  Will be interesting to see the preseason schedule.


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## eastbaysoccer

GTS said:


> Probably gonna get better results this season.
> 
> https://calbears.com/news/2018/11/14/womens-soccer-bears-bring-in-top-10-class.aspx


Cal had the #3 class last year and that nettted them 5 wins.   This years class is #8.   I don’t think the issue is a Player problem.


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## LASTMAN14

oh canada said:


> when your entire class comes from only 3 clubs, and all in your own state, what does that say about your recruiting?  i'm sure these girls are good, don't get me wrong, I just find it curious and unusual how limited in scope the recruitment seems.  UCLA, FSU, etc. have girls from outside the country, let alone outside their state.


Watched Cal play UCSB last season. I was perplexed how they did not take advantage of their opportunities. They play a good style but it felt they did not have a killer instinct. 

Aside from DeAnza what club teams primarily make up the roster?


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## Dubs

eastbaysoccer said:


> So is every pac-12 class.  You have no idea if any of those girls pan out.  The current team has wnt players.  Will be interesting to see the preseason schedule.


I agree there is no idea of how it all pans out, but like you said...such as with every class in the PAC 12.  We'll see.  I'm encouraged by what's coming down the pipe.


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## full90

It's funny that on social media Cal touts all their alums playing pro. I'm not sure I'd be quite so boisterous about that. You have tons of pros coming from your program, yet you can't win a thing while at Cal. What does that say?

 Neil has never won a second round NCAA game....ever. Even with Alex Morgan on the roster. Let that sink in. It's not a player issue. They've had ridiculous recruiting classes for years. Never come close to a pac 12 title and never won 2 consecutive games in the NCAA's. I mean.......


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## MakeAPlay

Cal underachieves ever year since I have followed them.  With their academic chops there is no way that they shouldn’t make the sweet 16 every year.  I can tell you that it was one of 3 schools that my player considered and it was eliminated before we got back to the hotel during that trip and one of the other girls on the trip ended up at Stanford.

Their issues aren’t because of the talent level.....


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## MacDre

LASTMAN14 said:


> Watched Cal play UCSB last season. I was perplexed how they did not take advantage of their opportunities. They play a good style but it felt they did not have a killer instinct.
> 
> Aside from DeAnza what club teams primarily make up the roster?


San Jose Earthquakes (Luca Deza’s dad is DOC), Lamorinda, and Mustang where Neil also coaches.


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## MacDre

full90 said:


> It's funny that on social media Cal touts all their alums playing pro. I'm not sure I'd be quite so boisterous about that. You have tons of pros coming from your program, yet you can't win a thing while at Cal. What does that say?
> 
> Neil has never won a second round NCAA game....ever. Even with Alex Morgan on the roster. Let that sink in. It's not a player issue. They've had ridiculous recruiting classes for years. Never come close to a pac 12 title and never won 2 consecutive games in the NCAA's. I mean.......


I have heard that in Europe success is measured by how many players are developed into professional team players as opposed to winning trophies.  So, maybe his goal is to develop players for USWNT and professional leagues.
Would Neil be a better coach if he won more trophies and placed fewer players on professional rosters?


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## GTS

Dubs said:


> Incoming recruiting classes for 2020, 2021 and 2022 are super strong and will contend.



For 2021 they have some player coming in from Tophat, Beach, Legends, OC Surf, & Blues.

For 2022 they only have 1 player from OC Surf, the rest of the 2022 may commit around July 2020 due to the new recruitment rule.


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## GTS

MacDre said:


> I have heard that in Europe success is measured by how many players are developed into professional team players as opposed to winning trophies.  So, maybe his goal is to develop players for USWNT and professional leagues.
> Would Neil be a better coach if he won more trophies and placed fewer players on professional rosters?



Good point.

From the article he has some talented players for the 2019 class which highlights the #1 Keeper Anderson.

Also read he landed the 2022 #1 Keeper.

Will be interesting to find out next year new commits for 2022, 2023 class.


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## full90

MacDre said:


> I have heard that in Europe success is measured by how many players are developed into professional team players as opposed to winning trophies.  So, maybe his goal is to develop players for USWNT and professional leagues.
> Would Neil be a better coach if he won more trophies and placed fewer players on professional rosters?


Yes.

He’s not taking middle of the pack players and turning them into pros. He’s getting highly rated players, producing middle of the pack teams, and then those players move on to the pros.

And anyways he isn’t paid to develop players. Cal doesn’t make money if the women go pro. He’s paid to win. If developing players helps to that end then cool. But he’s not hired to make pros.


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## eastbaysoccer

Cal want 1-9-1 in the pac 12.

Stanford, UCLA, USC are elite

Utah very good and has a recruiting niche. 

Colorado, Arizona, WA state good.

Then comes ASU, Oregon, cal, Washington, and OSU.  Oregon is improved.   I don’t see cal getting out of this pack.


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## GTS

full90 said:


> Yes.
> 
> He’s not taking middle of the pack players and turning them into pros. He’s getting highly rated players, producing middle of the pack teams, and then those players move on to the pros.
> 
> And anyways he isn’t paid to develop players. Cal doesn’t make money if the women go pro. He’s paid to win. If developing players helps to that end then cool. But he’s not hired to make pros.



Good evaluation.

A player that has a pathway to go pro would be a good fit for Cal.

A player that wants to play for a team that wins should reconsider.


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## eastbaysoccer

Pro? Nwsl probably won’t be around and there’s no money there.  

Cal plays an experienced Portland team this year.  That’s a tough game for any freshman.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

MacDre said:


> San Jose Earthquakes (Luca Deza’s dad is DOC), Lamorinda, and Mustang where Neil also coaches.


Interesting that those San Jose Earthquakes are all going to Westwood the next few years.


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## MakeAPlay

The Outlaw said:


> Interesting that those San Jose Earthquakes are all going to Westwood the next few years.


If style of play matters then UCLA, Stanford, Penn State and Florida State are the place for players that can play possession.  If kickball is a player’s forte then there are plenty of potential destinations.  Cal plays very direct soccer, which shouldn’t be a surprise, their coach is Scottish and they have the fastest soccer player in the country at forward.  He likes to recruit a speed forward and play her over the top.  That style doesn’t work against the better teams in the PAC 12.


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## NTX07

To the original question:  two words - Neil McGuire.  Know him well.


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## GTS

NTX07 said:


> To the original question:  two words - Neil McGuire.  Know him well.


Drum roll please.  What are your thoughts?


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## espola

MakeAPlay said:


> If style of play matters then UCLA, Stanford, Penn State and Florida State are the place for players that can play possession.  If kickball is a player’s forte then there are plenty of potential destinations.  Cal plays very direct soccer, which shouldn’t be a surprise, their coach is Scottish and they have the fastest soccer player in the country at forward.  He likes to recruit a speed forward and play her over the top.  That style doesn’t work against the better teams in the PAC 12.


Maybe so, but most of this discussion has centered on their WLT record, I believe.  No points there for style.


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## GTS

espola said:


> Maybe so, but most of this discussion has centered on their WLT record, I believe.  No points there for style.




WLT doesn't always reflect a good or bad coach.  

Is Cal coach any good based on recent WLT?

My player played for a very reputable coach, by endt  of the season the team did not win many games.  Players on the team were very talented and the coach was more than qualified and provided high level of quality training, I believe the team did not win many game due to poor chemistry.


Following season played for a coach that was good but not the same quality in comparison to the prior year coach, the team won most of their games.  The player work hard and had the same drive to win many games.


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## SpeedK1llz

Summer before her freshman year in high school, my player went to a Cal soccer camp and showed incredibly well. Granted, there were about 50 other girls there of vastly varying skill and ability level but still some talented players. To both mine and my daughter’s surprise, Neil actually called her by her name from the start.

Fast forward to the end of the camp where they play 11 v 11 and my kid is at forward running point like Iverson and assists on two beautiful goals in the first 10 minutes. Not a word from Neil at the end. Cal isn’t my kid’s first choice but wants feedback from the camp. Club coach knows Neil, so he calls and gets, “Yeah she’s a nice player but we don’t think she would be a fit”.


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## MacDre

The Outlaw said:


> Interesting that those San Jose Earthquakes are all going to Westwood the next few years.


Very interesting


SpeedK1llz said:


> Summer before her freshman year in high school, my player went to a Cal soccer camp and showed incredibly well. Granted, there were about 50 other girls there of vastly varying skill and ability level but still some talented players. To both mine and my daughter’s surprise, Neil actually called her by her name from the start.
> 
> Fast forward to the end of the camp where they play 11 v 11 and my kid is at forward running point like Iverson and assists on two beautiful goals in the first 10 minutes. Not a word from Neil at the end. Cal isn’t my kid’s first choice but wants feedback from the camp. Club coach knows Neil, so he calls and gets, “Yeah she’s a nice player but we don’t think she would be a fit”.


My player went to a Cal camp and showed really well.  As a 10 year old she distinguished herself from the other players.  She received positive feedback from Neil & Austin and they posted her on their Instagram page.
My daughter is shy and introverted and Neil & Austin bought something out of her.  Seriously, I think my daughter would walk through fire with gasoline draws on for Neil & Austin.
Over spring break she caught the attention of the FSU coach but she still wants to go to Cal.
I also think Neil contacted US Soccer on my players behalf as well.


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## Fact

MacDre said:


> San Jose Earthquakes (Luca Deza’s dad is DOC), Lamorinda, and Mustang where Neil also coaches.


Not only did he coach there, it looks like a lot of players coming in this year are from his dd’s club and high school team. With all the trips he takes to SoCal and in particular San Diego, you would think there would be more of our local girls on the roster.


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## MacDre

Fact said:


> Not only did he coach there, it looks like a lot of players coming in this year are from his dd’s club and high school team. With all the trips he takes to SoCal and in particular San Diego, you would think there would be more of our local girls on the roster.


Good point.  I’ve heard that Cal was having budget problems because they spent too much money retrofitting their stadium.  So, if Neil can recruit rich kids from Danville, Moraga, & San Jose he probably doesn’t have to come off of any scholarship money.  IDK, just speculating.


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## full90

I don’t think we should be critical for coaches having a bad year or even a couple. Chemistry, leadership, injuries can wreck a team. 

But it is fair to look at several years of results combined with personnel on the team and make a realistic judgement. 

Take Oregon. She’s been a head coach for over a decade at several stops and has had 1 winning season in that time. 1. I know Oregon is getting lots of talented kids but how much talent do you need to have a winning record? And in over a decade of coaching she’s NEVER had enough talent? If she needs 15 studs to win more than half her games that’s not a great sign. 

And I am critical of style and hate how Arizona plays but at least he’s committed to it and he’s won. Cal goes after all these athletes and doesn’t win anyways.


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## MacDre

Yeah, but I think Cal has done a better job than most of producing professional/International players.  So, how does one measure success?
Also, if most players are students before athletes, maybe Cal is producing better results.
I was surprised to learn that all of the players at FSU are constantly wearing GPS monitors to see if they are putting forth max effort and resting.  Maybe the programs that are constantly winning are putting athletics over scholarship.


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## GTS

MacDre said:


> Good point.  I’ve heard that Cal was having budget problems because they spent too much money retrofitting their stadium.  So, if Neil can recruit rich kids from Danville, Moraga, & San Jose he probably doesn’t have to come off of any scholarship money.  IDK, just speculating.



Well if they did then to maximize the $$ for Recruitment they would have to select majority of players from "in-state".

Maybe the $$ to fund for class of 2021, 22, 23 has grown, as I metion they have pick up a few out of state players.


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## LASTMAN14

MakeAPlay said:


> If style of play matters then UCLA, Stanford, Penn State and Florida State are the place for players that can play possession.  If kickball is a player’s forte then there are plenty of potential destinations.  Cal plays very direct soccer, which shouldn’t be a surprise, their coach is Scottish and they have the fastest soccer player in the country at forward.  He likes to recruit a speed forward and play her over the top.  That style doesn’t work against the better teams in the PAC 12.


I enjoyed watching Vandy thought they did a good job moving the ball. Oregon not bad either. But neither of them are Stanford or UCLA.


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## full90

GTS said:


> Well if they did then to maximize the $$ for Recruitment they would have to select majority of players from "in-state".
> 
> Maybe the $$ to fund for class of 2021, 22, 23 has grown, as I metion they have pick up a few out of state players.



Scholarship money doesn’t change. They won’t limit who he can go get. That’s not how it works.  But recruiting rich kids means you can offer less scholarship money to them, and then go get more players. The lack of money WILL impact why he hasn’t been fired. It’s expensive to fire a coach and go pay market rate to get a top candidate. Who will then ask hard questions like “why doesn’t our stadium have lights? Why can’t I pay my assistants more? 

I think that’s why he’s still there.


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## MacDre

full90 said:


> Scholarship money doesn’t change. They won’t limit who he can go get. That’s not how it works.  But recruiting rich kids means you can offer less scholarship money to them, and then go get more players. The lack of money WILL impact why he hasn’t been fired. It’s expensive to fire a coach and go pay market rate to get a top candidate. Who will then ask hard questions like “why doesn’t our stadium have lights? Why can’t I pay my assistants more?
> 
> I think that’s why he’s still there.


Neil coached Alex Morgan who will probably Captain the USWNT in France.  He is also the current coach of Abi Kim who went to the U20 world cup and is currently on the U23 USWNT.  I think that’s why he’s still there.


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## surfrider

MacDre said:


> Yeah, but I think Cal has done a better job than most of producing professional/International players.  So, how does one measure success?
> Also, if most players are students before athletes, maybe Cal is producing better results.
> I was surprised to learn that all of the players at FSU are constantly wearing GPS monitors to see if they are putting forth max effort and resting.  Maybe the programs that are constantly winning are putting athletics over scholarship.


GPS is common practice across all D1 programs


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## eastbaysoccer

MakeAPlay said:


> If style of play matters then UCLA, Stanford, Penn State and Florida State are the place for players that can play possession.  If kickball is a player’s forte then there are plenty of potential destinations.  Cal plays very direct soccer, which shouldn’t be a surprise, their coach is Scottish and they have the fastest soccer player in the country at forward.  He likes to recruit a speed forward and play her over the top.  That style doesn’t work against the better teams in the PAC 12.


there aren't many great coaches out there.  The ones that are great,....win and develop the kids.

1) Paul Ratclife was one of few that won at St. Mary's and now wins at Stanford
2) Jerry has been winning for years with CAL and Stanford in his back yard, both of which are BETTER schools
3) Anson Dorrance at UNC -his resume speaks for itself
4) Steve Swanson at Virgina - 26 consecutive winning season, 22 NCAA appearance.
5)  The great Clive Charles who coached Portland to multiple championships.  

Maybe Amanda Cromwell who had great success at UCF and now at UCLA.  Amanda has already proved she's better coach than Neil.  Neil is just ok,  just another coach that does well enough to stay around because CAL is too cheap to pony up for a big time up and coming coach.  And that's true for their big programs like football and basketball----BOTH programs haven't done crap since the old Mike Montgomery and Maruucci/Tedford days.


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## GTS

MacDre said:


> Neil coached Alex Morgan who will probably Captain the USWNT in France.  He is also the current coach of Abi Kim who went to the U20 world cup and is currently on the U23 USWNT.  I think that’s why he’s still there.



Wow, then he's got job security see the new players that will be playing soon.  I guess he's focused on top GK players, seeing he got both the top 2019, and 2022 GK.  

I would think coaches would rather get the top Forward and Mids.


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## Playmaker38

surfrider said:


> GPS is common practice across all D1 programs


I took it to mean wearing GPS/heart rate outside of training or game times.. for me I would consider that a little extreme


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## MacDre

GTS said:


> Wow, then he's got job security see the new players that will be playing soon.  I guess he's focused on top GK players, seeing he got both the top 2019, and 2022 GK.
> 
> I would think coaches would rather get the top Forward and Mids.


Alex Morgan and Abi Kim are both forwards.  Emily Boyd is a GK from Cal recently drafted.  Maybe they’re focusing on both.


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## espola

Playmaker38 said:


> I took it to mean wearing GPS/heart rate outside of training or game times.. for me I would consider that a little extreme


Useful for keeping track of outside activities, I suppose.


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## MacDre

Playmaker38 said:


> I took it to mean wearing GPS/heart rate outside of training or game times.. for me I would consider that a little extreme


Exactly.  Players are monitored around the clock and it was presented as a way to evaluate whether the players were getting enough rest and recovery time.  I walked away feeling like if a kid goes out to a party, coach will definitely know!  However MK was unapologetic and stated he was recruiting type A personalities and if you don’t like it, then you should look elsewhere.


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## Playmaker38

MacDre said:


> Exactly.  Players are monitored around the clock and it was presented as a way to evaluate whether the players were getting enough rest and recovery time.  I walked away feeling like if a kid goes out to a party, coach will definitely know!  However MK was unapologetic and stated he was recruiting type A personalities and if you don’t like it, then you should look elsewhere.



God forbid a college athlete have a social life or even something so crazy as a dating life. I’m one hundred percent behind coaches who limit drinking and partying during season. 

But could you imagine being a 20 year old kid in college with a constant monitor on you?

Type A is all well and good, but a STUDENT athlete deserves the opportunity to be a regular college student every once in a while


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## davin

Playmaker38 said:


> God forbid a college athlete have a social life or even something so crazy as a dating life. I’m one hundred percent behind coaches who limit drinking and partying during season.
> 
> But could you imagine being a 20 year old kid in college with a constant monitor on you?
> 
> Type A is all well and good, but a STUDENT athlete deserves the opportunity to be a regular college student every once in a while


We heard something similar from the Santa Clara coach last year while on a school visit. They track how much sleep their players are getting. I think it’s via a Fitbit or similar device. They mentioned that the lack of sleep was one the biggest factors that leave athletes more susceptible to injury, so they want to make sure their players are getting enough sleep.


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## Playmaker38

davin said:


> We heard something similar from the Santa Clara coach last year while on a school visit. They track how much sleep their players are getting. I think it’s via a Fitbit or similar device. They mentioned that the lack of sleep was one the biggest factors that leave athletes more susceptible to injury, so they want to make sure their players are getting enough sleep.



This I can get on board with...

But imagine getting called into coaches office asking why your heart rate spiked at 11pm Tuesday night...

I can see the benefits, and I can see the lines that might be crossed.


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## espola

Playmaker38 said:


> God forbid a college athlete have a social life or even something so crazy as a dating life. I’m one hundred percent behind coaches who limit drinking and partying during season.
> 
> But could you imagine being a 20 year old kid in college with a constant monitor on you?
> 
> Type A is all well and good, but a STUDENT athlete deserves the opportunity to be a regular college student every once in a while


Hey roommate - before you go to bed could you put this on for me?


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## espola

Playmaker38 said:


> This I can get on board with...
> 
> But imagine getting called into coaches office asking why your heart rate spiked at 11pm Tuesday night...
> 
> I can see the benefits, and I can see the lines that might be crossed.


Especially if the men's soccer coach is coordinating data with the women's soccer coach.


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## The Outlaw *BANNED*

espola said:


> Especially if the men's soccer coach is coordinating data with the women's soccer coach.


With this team?  You wouldn't need to worry about what the boys are doing.


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## TexasWave

What’s the board’s view of the Pepperdine coaching staff?


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## dk_b

Hard to win in the PAC12 without an elite gk and/or an elite scorer unless the rest of the team is loaded. Losing Emily Boyd and 3 seniors on the backline hurt Cal this past year. A strong Jr class + Kim + an elite gk and I think 2019 will look different. Does not explain the NCAA issues in recent years though losing an all American senior defender in the first 2 mins to a red card, Santa Clara scoring on a brilliant free kick and playing down a player for 88 mins might explain the last game.


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## MakeAPlay

dk_b said:


> Hard to win in the PAC12 without an elite gk and/or an elite scorer unless the rest of the team is loaded. Losing Emily Boyd and 3 seniors on the backline hurt Cal this past year. A strong Jr class + Kim + an elite gk and I think 2019 will look different. Does not explain the NCAA issues in recent years though losing an all American senior defender in the first 2 mins to a red card, Santa Clara scoring on a brilliant free kick and playing down a player for 88 mins might explain the last game.


No excuses for Cal’s performance in the tournament.  They get top talent every year.  They are a top academic institution that can recruit players from anywhere on Earth.  I can make excuses as to why my 10 year old son doesn’t clean his room without me making him.  However, at the end of the day if his room isn’t clean it was his fault.  Cal could easily get a top coach and could easily afford to pay him/her.  This year is a big year for the Bears.  Anything less than top 4 in the conference is a failure and unfortunately for them the rest of the conference has them circled on their schedule as the soft spot among their 4 games against the California schools in the conference and a must win.

Honestly I don’t feel bad for anyone that gets a Berkeley degree.  Soccer is temporary but a world class education is forever.


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## dk_b

I offered an explanation and not an excuse but I see how that could be interpreted differently than my intent.  My comment re GKs/scorers was more general re the Pac and why schools like, say, Oregon have struggled. 

I live in Berkeley so get to watch a lot of Cal games and I usually get to a few Stanford games each year (oddly enough, and full disclosure, the two schools where I have the largest personal rooting interest (no family members among the players on the teams)). I guess that means I’ve watched your daughter, @MakeAPlay , in addition to those of others on this board (I’ve even watched a HS game with my friend, @SpeedK1llz , back in his player’s senior year). I do remember a 7-0 win by Cal over UCLA in 2015, only 2 years before UCLA returned to the national finals. My point is not that Cal will play for the national title in 2020 or that UCLA’s down year in 2015 was comparable to Cal’s 2018 (UCLA was down but Cal’s was worse).  My point is that the margin is thin and there’s a reason why the consistently elite teams are few in number.


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## eastbaysoccer

GTS said:


> Wow, then he's got job security see the new players that will be playing soon.  I guess he's focused on top GK players, seeing he got both the top 2019, and 2022 GK.
> 
> I would think coaches would rather get the top Forward and Mids.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> dk_b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to win in the PAC12 without an elite gk and/or an elite scorer unless the rest of the team is loaded. Losing Emily Boyd and 3 seniors on the backline hurt Cal this past year. A strong Jr class + Kim + an elite gk and I think 2019 will look different. Does not explain the NCAA issues in recent years though losing an all American senior defender in the first 2 mins to a red card, Santa Clara scoring on a brilliant free kick and playing down a player for 88 mins might explain the last game.
Click to expand...

Everybody in the pac12 is getting better. OSU can’t get any worse with a new coach.  The margin is narrow and the pressure is on at CAL.
Watch out for Oregon this year.


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## full90

So this is finally Oregon’s year? It’s taken her 6 years to build the program to even have a winning record? Ok. Lol.


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## eastbaysoccer

It’s very difficult to build a program.  For one, the top recruits have been already spoken for, 2-3 years out.  You are left with the leftovers and a few diamonds here and there that everyone else is looking for.

2) it takes about 5 years before all the players on the team are the new coach’s.  You can just clean house like NFL teams do.

3) it’s just really hard to do at a mid level academic school and below.  And there aren’t many coaches up to the task.


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## Dubs

eastbaysoccer said:


> Cal want 1-9-1 in the pac 12.
> 
> Stanford, UCLA, USC are elite
> 
> Utah very good and has a recruiting niche.
> 
> Colorado, Arizona, WA state good.
> 
> Then comes ASU, Oregon, cal, Washington, and OSU.  Oregon is improved.   I don’t see cal getting out of this pack.


Maybe not this year, but as 2020's 2021's roll in.. they will contend.


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## full90

Dubs said:


> Maybe not this year, but as 2020's 2021's roll in.. they will contend.


yeah we will see. in the past few years they've had the number 5, 8 and 3 classes in the country sooooooooo


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## Zerodenero

full90 said:


> So this is finally Oregon’s year? It’s taken her 6 years to build the program to even have a winning record? Ok. Lol.


With the facilities/athletic support they have, I’d think they be 2nd to none.


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## full90

eastbaysoccer said:


> It’s very difficult to build a program.  For one, the top recruits have been already spoken for, 2-3 years out.  You are left with the leftovers and a few diamonds here and there that everyone else is looking for.
> 
> 2) it takes about 5 years before all the players on the team are the new coach’s.  You can just clean house like NFL teams do.
> 
> 3) it’s just really hard to do at a mid level academic school and below.  And there aren’t many coaches up to the task.


There's literally so many coaches on the west coast who have won quicker than she has. Arizona guy took over the same year as Kat and not only has a record that is light years better than Kat's (he's had a winning record every year while she has had zero) but has been to the NCAA's multiple times as well as a sweet 16. 

SDSU guy was in the NCAA Tournament 3 years after he got the job.

it took Long Beach 4 years to make the NCAA after MI took over. 

It took Tim Ward 4 years and he had winning records after the first year. 

Lauren Hanson at SJSU took 2 years. 

And I'd guess Oregon is an easier sell than any of those places. 

Danny Sanchez at Colorado had them in the NCAA's in his second year. 

Good coaches can win. Then they start getting good players to bolster the program. Kat hasn't won and hasn't won and hasn't won...how many good players does she need in order to succeed? And when she gets all these good players, will she know what to do with them?


----------



## CaliKlines

full90 said:


> There's literally so many coaches on the west coast who have won quicker than she has. Arizona guy took over the same year as Kat and not only has a record that is light years better than Kat's (he's had a winning record every year while she has had zero) but has been to the NCAA's multiple times as well as a sweet 16.
> 
> SDSU guy was in the NCAA Tournament 3 years after he got the job.
> 
> it took Long Beach 4 years to make the NCAA after MI took over.
> 
> It took Tim Ward 4 years and he had winning records after the first year.
> 
> Lauren Hanson at SJSU took 2 years.
> 
> And I'd guess Oregon is an easier sell than any of those places.
> 
> Danny Sanchez at Colorado had them in the NCAA's in his second year.
> 
> Good coaches can win.


Don’t forget to add Tim Santoro from NC State. After 6 seasons with State, he’s been to tournament 3 times including two Sweet 16 appearances. Complete overhaul of an underperforming program.


----------



## Ricky Fandango

TexasWave said:


> What’s the board’s view of the Pepperdine coaching staff?


Love them.


----------



## TexasWave

Thank you Ricky.  Seems like the Board likes the program.  My daughter met the staff and left Malibu believing she found her new home.  So we are passing on College Station, Austin, Fort Worth and Lubbock for Malibu.   Only girl on her team to not join a SEC or Big 12 program.  Can’t say I’m not excited about regular flights to SoCal and the rest of the WCC campuses come Fall 2021.


----------



## full90

CaliKlines said:


> Don’t forget to add Tim Santoro from NC State. After 6 seasons with State, he’s been to tournament 3 times including two Sweet 16 appearances. Complete overhaul of an underperforming program.


oh agree. I just was listing west coast schools. If you expand that nationwide you will find coaches who win very quickly when taking over. EVEN if some of them win, then take a step back, then win...etc. They make an immediate and tangible impact on the culture of the program and bring in knowledge and savvy that makes a difference in win loss record. So when a coach has been at a school like Oregon for Pete's sake and can't even manage one winning season it's pretty telling. I honestly don't root against anyone so I am not hoping she fails....it's just taking a long time (and she has yet to do it at any program she's been at).


----------



## CaliKlines

Kat has a lot of tangible support around her program with equipment, facilities, and academic programs. (The Jaqua is quite a building!) Those brick and mortar facilities attract top players. The intangibles are harder to develop.


----------



## MakeAPlay

dk_b said:


> I offered an explanation and not an excuse but I see how that could be interpreted differently than my intent.  My comment re GKs/scorers was more general re the Pac and why schools like, say, Oregon have struggled.
> 
> I live in Berkeley so get to watch a lot of Cal games and I usually get to a few Stanford games each year (oddly enough, and full disclosure, the two schools where I have the largest personal rooting interest (no family members among the players on the teams)). I guess that means I’ve watched your daughter, @MakeAPlay , in addition to those of others on this board (I’ve even watched a HS game with my friend, @SpeedK1llz , back in his player’s senior year). I do remember a 7-0 win by Cal over UCLA in 2015, only 2 years before UCLA returned to the national finals. My point is not that Cal will play for the national title in 2020 or that UCLA’s down year in 2015 was comparable to Cal’s 2018 (UCLA was down but Cal’s was worse).  My point is that the margin is thin and there’s a reason why the consistently elite teams are few in number.


Those two seasons were far from comparable.  UCLA was coming off of an elite 8 and a national championship and lost 8 or 9 starters and due to a coaching change they only got 3 recruits that made it past their freshman year.  So not a typical UCLA recruiting class.  Also my focus wasn’t a one off season it is more the fact with the same caliber of talent that the other California PAC 12 schools get they haven’t advanced past the 2nd round whereas the others all won national championships in the last 6 years.

Let’s put it another way.  Cal had the #1 recruiting class for 2017 committed and for some reason 4 of the top 5 players chose to go elsewhere and they are all doing well including one of them winning the MAC Hermann trophy.  There has to be a reason why...


----------



## eastbaysoccer

MakeAPlay said:


> Those two seasons were far from comparable.  UCLA was coming off of an elite 8 and a national championship and lost 8 or 9 starters and due to a coaching change they only got 3 recruits that made it past their freshman year.  So not a typical UCLA recruiting class.  Also my focus wasn’t a one off season it is more the fact with the same caliber of talent that the other California PAC 12 schools get they haven’t advanced past the 2nd round whereas the others all won national championships in the last 6 years.
> 
> Let’s put it another way.  Cal had the #1 recruiting class for 2017 committed and for some reason 4 of the top 5 players chose to go elsewhere and they are all doing well including one of them winning the MAC Hermann trophy.  There has to be a reason why...


Bottom line NEIL has underperformed.  Cal could reach down south and grab Hanson who Would jump in a heartbeat.  Give her 130k which is less than Neil’s 150k and more than she’s making at SJSU. 

Or you could go after cal alum HAMM who took sf state to new heights and just joined Davis provided she can do some damage in the big west over the next two years.

Neil moves over to take over at ST.marys or pacific.


----------



## SpeedK1llz

TexasWave said:


> What’s the board’s view of the Pepperdine coaching staff?


Amazing! Couldn’t ask for a better staff. Focused more on building women of character knowing that with that, great soccer will follow. High level of integrity. They are honest with each player and do what they say they’ll do and keep their word. The staff is what sold my player on committing to the program.


----------



## dk_b

MakeAPlay said:


> Those two seasons were far from comparable.  UCLA was coming off of an elite 8 and a national championship and lost 8 or 9 starters and due to a coaching change they only got 3 recruits that made it past their freshman year.  So not a typical UCLA recruiting class.


Yes, what we are saying is not radically different:  “My point is not that . . . UCLA’s down year in 2015 was comparable to Cal’s 2018 (UCLA was down but Cal’s was worse). My point is that the margin is thin and there’s a reason why the consistently elite teams are few in number.”  And, as I noted in my reference to Cal’s loss to SCU, it was an explanation - as you have provided here re 2015. The coaching change did not hurt UCLA in 2013 and 2014 but did in 2015 - that’s an explanation. (And I accept that). Cromwell seems to have done a great job in keeping the program at an elite level - again, one of the consistently elite teams that are few in number. A winning program is not an elite program - a program that is consistently in the top 10, consistently makes the college cup, can weather an odd down year without it snowballing into years . . . those are the elite ones. And even a 1st or 2d round loss in the tourney is limited to “disappointment” rather than real questions with those few programs (think about UNC’s incredible legacy - when they lost in the College Cup semis in San Jose, it closed the door on the first senior class to never have won an ncaa championship since the class of 1981 and that class never had an ncaa championship to win!).  What makes the PAC-12 great (well, one of the reasons) is that there are so many really good programs, a number of them consistently successful. But even in the pac-12 there are only a couple (2 or maybe 3) “elites”. And that’s the big challenge for any of the programs at the bottom - it is not enough to just play competitive games against the league, you’ve got to win those close ones. And that’s where - going back to my earlier comment - you will have a hard time without an elite gk or a real scorer (preferably both). I’m biased because of my own personal interests but I do hope that regaining that element will make a big difference for Cal (still needs to have tourney success) and adding that will soon be a turning point for Oregon. 

(@SpeedK1llz can confirm this or correct any details I get wrong - he and I first connected when I had Stanford-SCU 2d round tix that I could not use (the game Stanford lost in 2OT right after Sullivan went down) (the other game was Pepperdine v I can’t remember (NC State maybe?)). That loss really stunk for any Stanford fan - before the injury, Stanford had dominated and it seemed that this was going to be a special run but SCU’s gk was sensational. Of course a 2d round loss proves to be a blip with an elite program.)


----------



## Ricky Fandango

TexasWave said:


> Thank you Ricky.  Seems like the Board likes the program.  My daughter met the staff and left Malibu believing she found her new home.  So we are passing on College Station, Austin, Fort Worth and Lubbock for Malibu.   Only girl on her team to not join a SEC or Big 12 program.  Can’t say I’m not excited about regular flights to SoCal and the rest of the WCC campuses come Fall 2021.


Enjoy it.
It goes by quick!


----------



## gkrent

TexasWave said:


> Thank you Ricky.  Seems like the Board likes the program.  My daughter met the staff and left Malibu believing she found her new home.  So we are passing on College Station, Austin, Fort Worth and Lubbock for Malibu.   Only girl on her team to not join a SEC or Big 12 program.  Can’t say I’m not excited about regular flights to SoCal and the rest of the WCC campuses come Fall 2021.


What year will we see her debut on the roster?


----------



## Dubs

MakeAPlay said:


> Those two seasons were far from comparable.  UCLA was coming off of an elite 8 and a national championship and lost 8 or 9 starters and due to a coaching change they only got 3 recruits that made it past their freshman year.  So not a typical UCLA recruiting class.  Also my focus wasn’t a one off season it is more the fact with the samSe caliber of talent that the other California PAC 12 schools get they haven’t advanced past the 2nd round whereas the others all won national championships in the last 6 years.
> 
> Let’s put it another way.  Cal had the #1 recruiting class for 2017 committed and for some reason 4 of the top 5 players chose to go elsewhere and they are all doing well including one of them winning the MAC Hermann trophy.  There has to be a reason why...


So in your opinion... why?


----------



## TexasWave

2021.   She is currently the holding mid for Solar’s DA U16-17 team which is ranked #1 in DA and previously won National Championships in 2016 and 2017.


----------



## MacDre

full90 said:


> oh agree. I just was listing west coast schools. If you expand that nationwide you will find coaches who win very quickly when taking over. EVEN if some of them win, then take a step back, then win...etc. They make an immediate and tangible impact on the culture of the program and bring in knowledge and savvy that makes a difference in win loss record. So when a coach has been at a school like Oregon for Pete's sake and can't even manage one winning season it's pretty telling. I honestly don't root against anyone so I am not hoping she fails....it's just taking a long time (and she has yet to do it at any program she's been at).





eastbaysoccer said:


> there aren't many great coaches out there.  The ones that are great,....win and develop the kids.
> 
> 1) Paul Ratclife was one of few that won at St. Mary's and now wins at Stanford
> 2) Jerry has been winning for years with CAL and Stanford in his back yard, both of which are BETTER schools
> 3) Anson Dorrance at UNC -his resume speaks for itself
> 4) Steve Swanson at Virgina - 26 consecutive winning season, 22 NCAA appearance.
> 5)  The great Clive Charles who coached Portland to multiple championships.
> 
> Maybe Amanda Cromwell who had great success at UCF and now at UCLA.  Amanda has already proved she's better coach than Neil.  Neil is just ok,  just another coach that does well enough to stay around because CAL is too cheap to pony up for a big time up and coming coach.  And that's true for their big programs like football and basketball----BOTH programs haven't done crap since the old Mike Montgomery and Maruucci/Tedford days.


I will admit that I have a strong bias towards Cal.  However, I can’t recall Cal teams in any sport ever being that good.  When I was in High School, I hung out with the Cal football team because one of my best friends older brother Je’rod Cherry played for Cal.  My law school roommate Na’il Benjamin played for Cal and was one of the Players Marruuci took to the 49ers with him.  My little cousin Beast Mode also played at Cal.  Everyone in my inner circle transitioned to the NFL seamlessly despite playing on mediocre teams at Cal.  In fact, Je’rod recently auctioned one of his super bowl rings for charity.  So, from where I’m standing it looks like Cal is a good option for those that have a decent chance of going pro.  But I have to admit you and MAP are in my head and making me reconsider a few things.


----------



## gkrent

MacDre said:


> I will admit that I have a strong bias towards Cal.  However, I can’t recall Cal teams in any sport ever being that good.  When I was in High School, I hung out with the Cal football team because one of my best friends older brother Je’rod Cherry played for Cal.  My law school roommate Na’il Benjamin played for Cal and was one of the Players Marruuci took to the 49ers with him.  My little cousin Beast Mode also played at Cal.  Everyone in my inner circle transitioned to the NFL seamlessly despite playing on mediocre teams at Cal.  In fact, Je’rod recently auctioned one of his super bowl rings for charity.  So, from where I’m standing it looks like Cal is a good option for those that have a decent chance of going pro.  But I have to admit you and MAP are in my head and making me reconsider a few things.


I wouldn't let @eastbaysoccer get into your head


----------



## MacDre

MakeAPlay said:


> Those two seasons were far from comparable.  UCLA was coming off of an elite 8 and a national championship and lost 8 or 9 starters and due to a coaching change they only got 3 recruits that made it past their freshman year.  So not a typical UCLA recruiting class.  Also my focus wasn’t a one off season it is more the fact with the same caliber of talent that the other California PAC 12 schools get they haven’t advanced past the 2nd round whereas the others all won national championships in the last 6 years.
> 
> Let’s put it another way.  Cal had the #1 recruiting class for 2017 committed and for some reason 4 of the top 5 players chose to go elsewhere and they are all doing well including one of them winning the MAC Hermann trophy.  There has to be a reason why...


I follow CM very closely because her soccer foundation is similar to my players.  I assumed she chose Stanford because they offered more money.  What are your thoughts as to why 4 out of 5 top players chose to go elsewhere?


----------



## gkrent

Dubs said:


> So in your opinion... why?


There are some people on this forum that have direct experience with what happened with the 2017 class.  Maybe one of them will chime in...


----------



## gkrent

MacDre said:


> I follow CM very closely because her soccer foundation is similar to my players.  I assumed she chose Stanford because they offered more money.  What are your thoughts as to why 4 out of 5 top players chose to go elsewhere?


I seriously doubt CM was offered less than a full ride anywhere.


----------



## GKDAD

gkrent said:


> There are some people on this forum that have direct experience with what happened with the 2017 class.  Maybe one of them will chime in...


Know it quite well.    Really a different story for each player.     The initial 4 players, including my DD,  went up as a group and all committed early their sophomore years.      The virtues of the arguments against early commitments.    As for mine, Berkeley looked cool and "eclectic" during that initial visit, then when she turned 15 she thought it was a "weird" city and had an appetite to leave Coast and go explore the Midwest/ACC.    That was pretty much it.    Then she went to a late summer game at the Big House.....and now attends Ann Arbor.....the Berkeley of the Midwest.    Had nothing to do with money offered, pretty sure that was true for the entire group.    But it would definitely have been a heck of a recruiting class.


----------



## SpeedK1llz

dk_b said:


> (@SpeedK1llz can confirm this or correct any details I get wrong - he and I first connected when I had Stanford-SCU 2d round tix that I could not use (the game Stanford lost in 2OT right after Sullivan went down) (the other game was Pepperdine v I can’t remember (NC State maybe?)). That loss really stunk for any Stanford fan - before the injury, Stanford had dominated and it seemed that this was going to be a special run but SCU’s gk was sensational. Of course a 2d round loss proves to be a blip with an elite program.)


All correct sir. Your memory is impeccable!


----------



## espola

GKDAD said:


> Know it quite well.    Really a different story for each player.     The initial 4 players, including my DD,  went up as a group and all committed early their sophomore years.      The virtues of the arguments against early commitments.    As for mine, Berkeley looked cool and "eclectic" during that initial visit, then when she turned 15 she thought it was a "weird" city and had an appetite to leave Coast and go explore the Midwest/ACC.    That was pretty much it.    Then she went to a late summer game at the Big House.....and now attends Ann Arbor.....the Berkeley of the Midwest.    Had nothing to do with money offered, pretty sure that was true for the entire group.    But it would definitely have been a heck of a recruiting class.


I googled "Berkeley of the midwest" and got mostly references to Madison, Wisconsin.


----------



## SpeedK1llz

MacDre said:


> I will admit that I have a strong bias towards Cal.  However, I can’t recall Cal teams in any sport ever being that good.  When I was in High School, I hung out with the Cal football team because one of my best friends older brother Je’rod Cherry played for Cal.  My law school roommate Na’il Benjamin played for Cal and was one of the Players Marruuci took to the 49ers with him.  My little cousin Beast Mode also played at Cal.  Everyone in my inner circle transitioned to the NFL seamlessly despite playing on mediocre teams at Cal.  In fact, Je’rod recently auctioned one of his super bowl rings for charity.  So, from where I’m standing it looks like Cal is a good option for those that have a decent chance of going pro.  But I have to admit you and MAP are in my head and making me reconsider a few things.


Do you think it was Cal coaching that made the difference for these players to get to the next level or did they just have the natural talent and drive to get there despite the coaching?


----------



## SpeedK1llz

MacDre said:


> I follow CM very closely because her soccer foundation is similar to my players.  I assumed she chose Stanford because they offered more money.  What are your thoughts as to why 4 out of 5 top players chose to go elsewhere?


Complete outsiders view:

Cal - Pac12 middle dweller and first round NCAA tournament exit EVERY year they've made the tournament.
Stanford - Pac12 championship and NCAA tournament Championship contender EVERY single year


----------



## SpeedK1llz

GKDAD said:


> Berkeley looked cool and "eclectic" during that initial visit, then when she turned 15 she thought it was a "weird" city


 Tell your DD at age 51 it's still weird...


----------



## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> I follow CM very closely because her soccer foundation is similar to my players.  I assumed she chose Stanford because they offered more money.  What are your thoughts as to why 4 out of 5 top players chose to go elsewhere?


It definitely wasn’t about money sir.  All of those players were getting money and Cal is significantly less expensive than Stanford, Santa Clara and Michigan for a kid from California.


----------



## dk_b

SpeedK1llz said:


> Tell your DD at age 51 it's still weird...


We just need to hang out more, @SpeedK1llz 

There’s a whole ‘nuther side for people our age that’s less weird. But you gotta love good food.


----------



## MakeAPlay

gkrent said:


> I seriously doubt CM was offered less than a full ride anywhere.


As you know it was not about the money.   They moved her and her brother from Brazil for soccer and educational opportunities.  Her mom is a doctor.


----------



## MacDre

SpeedK1llz said:


> Do you think it was Cal coaching that made the difference for these players to get to the next level or did they just have the natural talent and drive to get there despite the coaching?


I think all had the talent.  I’m not so sure about the drive though.  I’m amazed at how hard I see young soccer players work for sustained periods of time.  It’s hard to constantly push yourself when you can just show up and be better than most.  I think the coaches at Cal have done a good job of finding talent in the ghettos of the Bay Area and mentoring kids that would’ve otherwise chose gangs and encouraging them to work hard.  To me a coach is a mentor/motivator, and I think Cal is good at that.


----------



## surfrider

I’m pretty sure the three clubs he recruits from are far from being in the ghetto. I have family up there and that ain’t it. ( yes I realize you were talking of your football experience but that doesn’t apply to Cal Soccer


----------



## MacDre

SpeedK1llz said:


> Complete outsiders view:
> 
> Cal - Pac12 middle dweller and first round NCAA tournament exit EVERY year they've made the tournament.
> Stanford - Pac12 championship and NCAA tournament Championship contender EVERY single year


Great point.  But I have a question for you.  Around 5-6 years ago there was a young lady named Ryan Walker-Hartshorn from Oakland that went to Stanford.  She had youth national team experience and was the California Gatorade player of the year.  After she got to Stanford, I didn’t hear much about her.  My fear about Stanford & UCLA is that the coaches only want trophies and put the team over the development of their players.
On the other hand, I look at Cal as putting the development of their players over the team and winning trophies.
So, do you think there’s much development going on at Stanford and UCLA or is it all about winning trophies?


----------



## MacDre

surfrider said:


> I’m pretty sure the three clubs he recruits from are far from being in the ghetto. I have family up there and that ain’t it. ( yes I realize you were talking of your football experience but that doesn’t apply to Cal Soccer


Yes, you are correct.  Danville, Moraga, & San Jose are expensive.  Hell, my small house in S. Berkeley (the Berkeley ghetto prior to gentrification) cost over 1 mil.‍


----------



## dk_b

Ryan had a decent career at Stanford.  Her best year was as a sophomore but she had a fair amount of playing time all 4 years (some more than others).  I did not watch her development close enough so I can’t see why she trended as someone who would become a featured player but it may have to do with the program hitting its zenith in recruiting (which it has sustained).

An aside:  She entered Stanford with another Berkeley/Oakland area player - a girl who then suffered three ACL tears (one in HS and two at Stanford if I remember correctly). I always root for our local crew playing at a high level and it was a bummer she never really had the chance (not Stanford’s fault).


----------



## SpeedK1llz

dk_b said:


> We just need to hang out more, @SpeedK1llz
> 
> There’s a whole ‘nuther side for people our age that’s less weird. But you gotta love good food.


Ahh @dk_b you know I’m only half kidding. I do love the food. Zachary’s Chicago Pizza is my all time fave and I know there’s even more still to discover. I’ll meet you in Berkeley anytime, just name the time and place.


----------



## dk_b

SpeedK1llz said:


> Ahh @dk_b you know I’m only half kidding. I do love the food. Zachary’s Chicago Pizza is my all time fave and I know there’s even more still to discover. I’ll meet you in Berkeley anytime, just name the time and place.


Of course I know!


----------



## surfrider

I remember her. Tall,lanky kid with a ton of talent but had just an average run at Stanford. Stanford UCLA and UNC churn out the most professional by a ways
The US 23 woman roster is littered with them


----------



## SpeedK1llz

MacDre said:


> Great point.  But I have a question for you.  Around 5-6 years ago there was a young lady named Ryan Walker-Hartshorn from Oakland that went to Stanford.  She had youth national team experience and was the California Gatorade player of the year.  After she got to Stanford, I didn’t hear much about her.  My fear about Stanford & UCLA is that the coaches only want trophies and put the team over the development of their players.
> On the other hand, I look at Cal as putting the development of their players over the team and winning trophies.
> So, do you think there’s much development going on at Stanford and UCLA or is it all about winning trophies?


Although I am not familiar with this particular player, I don’t think there’s an easy answer to your question. I do think most coaches are under a considerable amount of pressure to win to keep their jobs and therefore winning and trophies are the primary objective. Development of athletes as players and humans can also be a priority but I suspect this is not the norm. From personal experience, I believe Tim Ward and his staff fall into the latter category but producing a winning/successful program is always in play.

The other factor we need to consider is player/athlete motivation. Was soccer merely a means to a degree? Did they go from being the #1 player in club to #2 or #3 on the college team and that changes their motivation? Do they burn out or do they get to college and realize it’s a lot more work to maintain acceptable playing time and that the competition within their own team is too cutthroat?

Not sure what is happening at Cal & Stanford specifically but I would think in the case of Stanford, Paul has built up enough goodwill and his job is secure enough that I’d hope he could focus on both.


----------



## dk_b

surfrider said:


> I remember her. Tall,lanky kid with a ton of talent but had just an average run at Stanford. Stanford UCLA and UNC churn out the most professional by a ways
> The US 23 woman roster is littered with them


I think that is a fair description.  Though I think an average run at Stanford is not such a bad run in which to be average.  (I am not taking your comment as criticism or a knock on the player)

That 4-year stretch (2013-16) was really interesting for Stanford.  After winning the College Cup in 2011 and then making it to the semis in 2012, Emily Oliver's career-ending concussion in her senior year opened the door for freshman, Jane Campbell.  Yet, as talented as those teams were, their NCAA tourney run was good but not necessarily "elite":  3d round (and 4th in Pac), 3d round (2d in Pac), Quarters (winning the Pac; I think the tourney loss was the game in which EJ Proctor and Duke beat Jane/Stanford in PKs) and 2d round (winning the Pac; the game I mentioned v SCU).  Shows how thin that margin is and how incredible it is for the teams that are repeatedly appearing in the College Cup.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gkrent said:


> I wouldn't let @eastbaysoccer get into your head


Cals a great school.  If you are worried Neil won’t be there don’t worry.
There’s no doubt in my mind if he’s replaced it will be by someone who is dynamic.  Expect an upgrade like a Cromwell.


----------



## eastbaysoccer

gkrent said:


> I wouldn't let @eastbaysoccer get into your head


The cal team with Aaron Rodgers was damn good until they lost to top ranked WA at home.

The cal team with Jason Kidd that knocked off Duke in the second round was also special.

Maybe you dd can do that for the soccer team!


----------



## sirfootyalot

MacDre said:


> Great point.  But I have a question for you.  Around 5-6 years ago there was a young lady named Ryan Walker-Hartshorn from Oakland that went to Stanford.  She had youth national team experience and was the California Gatorade player of the year.  After she got to Stanford, I didn’t hear much about her.  My fear about Stanford & UCLA is that the coaches only want trophies and put the team over the development of their players.
> On the other hand, I look at Cal as putting the development of their players over the team and winning trophies.
> So, do you think there’s much development going on at Stanford and UCLA or is it all about winning trophies?


I had to laugh at this one. Do you really think coaches at Cal is thinking, “let’s not worry about winning, but let’s just focus on individual development, but coaches at Stanford and UCLA have no interest in making their players better individually? I mean you do realize those things go hand in hand right? I can’t speak for UCLA, but I know how much time Stanford coaches spend with their players individually, especially in winter and spring quarters to work on their individual game, which leads to them being able to play the way they play on the field together. Most of their players are very talented players no doubt, but most of them don’t come from good soccer environment. Heck, our YNT plays terrible soccer so they do a ton of work both individually and as a whole to be able to play the way they play. You can’t just put bunch of random talented players and expect them to play well. Again, look at our youth national teams. Even when they play against lesser teams, they just kick and run


----------



## MacDre

sirfootyalot said:


> I had to laugh at this one. Do you really think coaches at Cal is thinking, “let’s not worry about winning, but let’s just focus on individual development, but coaches at Stanford and UCLA have no interest in making their players better individually? I mean you do realize those things go hand in hand right? I can’t speak for UCLA, but I know how much time Stanford coaches spend with their players individually, especially in winter and spring quarters to work on their individual game, which leads to them being able to play the way they play on the field together. Most of their players are very talented players no doubt, but most of them don’t come from good soccer environment. Heck, our YNT plays terrible soccer so they do a ton of work both individually and as a whole to be able to play the way they play. You can’t just put bunch of random talented players and expect them to play well. Again, look at our youth national teams. Even when they play against lesser teams, they just kick and run


I don’t know to be honest.  I’m simply trying to explore all of the possibilities of why things are the way they are.  I don’t have a soccer background and my daughter has never played on a “club” team in the USA.
Thanks for the info


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## MakeAPlay

MacDre said:


> Great point.  But I have a question for you.  Around 5-6 years ago there was a young lady named Ryan Walker-Hartshorn from Oakland that went to Stanford.  She had youth national team experience and was the California Gatorade player of the year.  After she got to Stanford, I didn’t hear much about her.  My fear about Stanford & UCLA is that the coaches only want trophies and put the team over the development of their players.
> On the other hand, I look at Cal as putting the development of their players over the team and winning trophies.
> So, do you think there’s much development going on at Stanford and UCLA or is it all about winning trophies?


Ryan was my daughter’s host on her recruiting trip to Stanford.  She is a great young lady and if I remember correctly a couple of her family members were Stanford alums.  Stanford and UCLA get so much talent that not being a consistent starter doesn’t mean that you aren’t a great player.  Those teams just get some unique talent.  Regarding development honestly you aren’t going to see two teams that do more to develop professional and international players than Stanford and UCLA. Put simply the style of play for the US youth national teams on the women’s side is crap compared to those schools and that is coming from the players.  If either of those head coaches were in charge of the USWNT we would have a much better chance of winning the World Cup.  I know that Paul doesn’t want the job as he turned it down once already.

When it comes to women’s soccer Cal does little to develop talent and definitely underachieves.  The only reason why they have done as well as they have is because of how good the school is and the amount of talent that it naturally attracts.  Give Wazzu’s coach that lineup and they would make the final 8 and they would at a minimum be in the sweet 16 every year like the other California PAC 12 schools.

At least you get a world class education there.


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## LASTMAN14

MakeAPlay said:


> Ryan was my daughter’s host on her recruiting trip to Stanford.  She is a great young lady and if I remember correctly a couple of her family members were Stanford alums.  Stanford and UCLA get so much talent that not being a consistent starter doesn’t mean that you aren’t a great player.  Those teams just get some unique talent.  Regarding development honestly you aren’t going to see two teams that do more to develop professional and international players than Stanford and UCLA. Put simply the style of play for the US youth national teams on the women’s side is crap compared to those schools and that is coming from the players.  If either of those head coaches were in charge of the USWNT we would have a much better chance of winning the World Cup.  I know that Paul doesn’t want the job as he turned it down once already.
> 
> When it comes to women’s soccer Cal does little to develop talent and definitely underachieves.  The only reason why they have done as well as they have is because of how good the school is and the amount of talent that it naturally attracts.  Give Wazzu’s coach that lineup and they would make the final 8 and they would at a minimum be in the sweet 16 every year like the other California PAC 12 schools.
> 
> At least you get a world class education there.


In the end that's whats most important the education.


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## Sunil Illuminati

full90 said:


> Yes.
> 
> He’s not taking middle of the pack players and turning them into pros. He’s getting highly rated players, producing middle of the pack teams, and then those players move on to the pros.
> 
> And anyways he isn’t paid to develop players. Cal doesn’t make money if the women go pro. He’s paid to win. If developing players helps to that end then cool. But he’s not hired to make pros.


Lol. Yeah What a crazy concept. Go to college to develop the skills that will prepare you for your adult life. 

Where did it all go wrong?


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## Sunil Illuminati

full90 said:


> It's funny that on social media Cal touts all their alums playing pro. I'm not sure I'd be quite so boisterous about that. You have tons of pros coming from your program, yet you can't win a thing while at Cal. What does that say?
> 
> Neil has never won a second round NCAA game....ever. Even with Alex Morgan on the roster. Let that sink in. It's not a player issue. They've had ridiculous recruiting classes for years. Never come close to a pac 12 title and never won 2 consecutive games in the NCAA's. I mean.......


I wonder if Morgan's parents are devastated about how Alex's development played out?


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## MakeAPlay

Sunil Illuminati said:


> I wonder if Morgan's parents are devastated about how Alex's development played out?


So you pick a unicorn to generalize about an entire program?  That is pretty disingenuous.  It is a great school and she met her husband there so I am sure that she is happy about her choices but make no mistake about it she is a very one dimensional striker that would have benefited had she played for a couple of the other teams.


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## full90

Sunil Illuminati said:


> I wonder if Morgan's parents are devastated about how Alex's development played out?


My point was if you have that kind of talent on your roster I'd think you could win more than Neil did. She's a stud and was a stud pre-Cal, during Cal and obviously post Cal. Give any other school on the west coast Alex Morgan and I guarantee you they are winning more than one NCAA game. He didn't That's the point. 

And she worked her butt off after college to take her game to the next level. Cal actually didn't help her that much. She became world class after Cal.


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## Sunil Illuminati

MakeAPlay said:


> So you pick a unicorn to generalize about an entire program?  That is pretty disingenuous.  It is a great school and she met her husband there so I am sure that she is happy about her choices but make no mistake about it she is a very one dimensional striker that would have benefited had she played for a couple of the other teams.


I'm pretty sure I didn't pick her. I haven't made any comments about her play and what's to say she would have been better adding more dimensions or experiencing another program? You don't know that and neither do I. You don't have to play expert on every post.


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## MakeAPlay

Sunil Illuminati said:


> I'm pretty sure I didn't pick her. I haven't made any comments about her play and what's to say she would have been better adding more dimensions or experiencing another program? You don't know that and neither do I. You don't have to play expert on every post.


Ha ha you are funny.  You are the douchebag that brought up her parents and the dipshit that thinks that Neil did much to improve her game!  She had to go to Europe to become more than just a player that you play over the top.  No I am far from an expert but I will bet you the shirt on your fucking back that I have watched more women’s soccer than you have over the last decade dickwad.


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## MakeAPlay

It’s always the peckerwoods with the ULittle players that want to talk shit.  @Sunil Illuminati when your kid gets into a top school we can debate but until then you are just a pansy with an opinion.


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## Sunil Illuminati

MakeAPlay said:


> It’s always the peckerwoods with the ULittle players that want to talk shit.  @Sunil Illuminati when your kid gets into a top school we can debate but until then you are just a pansy with an opinion.


Your kid got into a top school? Really. No one on this forum has heard that before. You drop names like Heidi Fleiss Roll A Dex. You have no idea what I know or have seen. Watching Games doesn’t make you an expert nor does having a kid who played in college. Go and bore someone else.


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## GTS

Ding..Ding

Break time.


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## SpeedK1llz

Really? Things were just getting entertaining.


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## surfrider

Couldn’t help it
Have Map on ignore but trying figure out some of the comments that are so blatantly directed at him make me unignore just to see what shit he is spewing.  Never ends


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## gkrent

I was gonna call out the racial shit but then it got really funny.  It’s not my college action thread, so carry on!!!


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## SpeedK1llz

I'm still trying to figure out how a Cal soccer thread is now up to six pages and we can't get the college scandal thread back on track or any updates on the D1 college thread.


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## Kicker4Life

SpeedK1llz said:


> ....  we can't get the college scandal thread back on track.


That thread needs to be put to rest!


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## MacDre

https://calbears.com/news/2019/7/1/womens-soccer-bears-add-edwards-to-coaching-staff.aspx
Does anyone know anything about this guy?  Can he help Cal become more competitive?


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## sirfootyalot

MacDre said:


> https://calbears.com/news/2019/7/1/womens-soccer-bears-add-edwards-to-coaching-staff.aspx
> Does anyone know anything about this guy?  Can he help Cal become more competitive?


He’s a good man but I sure hope they won’t be relying on him to make them better..


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## eastbaysoccer

Neil doing everything he can to save his job.  Another season like last and he’s a goner.  

There are many qualified female coaches waiting for that job to open up.


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## Soccer43

MacDre said:


> https://calbears.com/news/2019/7/1/womens-soccer-bears-add-edwards-to-coaching-staff.aspx
> Does anyone know anything about this guy?  Can he help Cal become more competitive?


He had a good reputation as a strong coach and was involved a lot in ODP and club soccer.  In college he seems to have bounced around a lot.  He was the assistant coach and recruiter for Michigan for a hot second and then was gone from there but not sure what happened there.  It said in the announcement that he was a “volunteer assistant” coach now.  That sounds like a step in the backwards direction from where he was headed when he was at Michigan.


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## MacDre

Soccer43 said:


> He had a good reputation as a strong coach and was involved a lot in ODP and club soccer.  In college he seems to have bounced around a lot.  He was the assistant coach and recruiter for Michigan for a hot second and then was gone from there but not sure what happened there.  It said in the announcement that he was a “volunteer assistant” coach now.  That sounds like a step in the backwards direction from where he was headed when he was at Michigan.


In the attached podcast Edward’s states he left Michigan because the head coach was fired shortly after he arrived.  He also claims to have left ODP due to the lack of upward mobility for African-American coaches in US Soccer.
https://343coaching.com/podcast/soccer-by-3four3/episode-111-kai-edwards-life-as-a-black-coach-in-american-soccer/

I suspect his job will be similar to what is was at Michigan because Cal also recently promoted Austin Risenhoover to Associate Head Coach.
https://calbears.com/news/2019/4/24/womens-soccer-risenhoover-elevated-to-associate-head-coach.aspx


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## Just A Dad

MacDre said:


> In the attached podcast Edward’s states he left Michigan because the head coach was fired shortly after he arrived.  He also claims to have left ODP due to the lack of upward mobility for African-American coaches in US Soccer.
> https://343coaching.com/podcast/soccer-by-3four3/episode-111-kai-edwards-life-as-a-black-coach-in-american-soccer/
> 
> I suspect his job will be similar to what is was at Michigan because Cal also recently promoted Austin Risenhoover to Associate Head Coach.
> https://calbears.com/news/2019/4/24/womens-soccer-risenhoover-elevated-to-associate-head-coach.aspx


he was a club coach for sereno ECNL (now RSL AZ DA) hear in arizona. I dont know what other ODP programs he worked for but hear in arizona when he coached an ODP team he tried to recruit some of the players to come to his club and was caught. I dont think he left ODP in arizona on his own but was caught recruiting and not asked back.


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## Josep

Just A Dad said:


> he was a club coach for sereno ECNL (now RSL AZ DA) hear in arizona. I dont know what other ODP programs he worked for but hear in arizona when he coached an ODP team he tried to recruit some of the players to come to his club and was caught. I dont think he left ODP in arizona on his own but was caught recruiting and not asked back.



Just a dad how was that switch for Sereno from ECNL to DA?


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## Just A Dad

Josep said:


> Just a dad how was that switch for Sereno from ECNL to DA?


My kid doesn’t play for the club but sereno took over a lot of clubs in Arizona and went under the Rsl AZ name before they went DA. If they wouldn’t have taken over so many clubs i think it would have been a disaster because they never did a good job getting players to go to the club. It seems like with the new coaches and large pool of players they have access to now  I think they will be the dominant club in Arizona  going forward


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## Desert Hound

Just A Dad said:


> My kid doesn’t play for the club but sereno took over a lot of clubs in Arizona and went under the Rsl AZ name before they went DA. If they wouldn’t have taken over so many clubs i think it would have been a disaster because they never did a good job getting players to go to the club. It seems like with the new coaches and large pool of players they have access to now  I think they will be the dominant club in Arizona  going forward


The big change for Sereno was getting Brent Erwin. 

For years Sereno was hands down the best club in AZ. Then they basically rested on what they had accomplished while other clubs in the area became more aggressive, improved, etc. 

Take ECNL. In AZ you had del Sol and Sereno. 
- del Sol was aggressive in recruiting and over time became the club to go to. 
- Sereno over time had a weaker pool of players to pull from and generally promoted from within to their ECNL teams. 
- The result? Sereno ECNL was very weak. This weakness started to translate to their state teams as well. The perception was the club was not that good. 

The club brought in Erwin 3 yrs ago. 
- He started getting rid of coaches who were just mailing it in. 
- He started getting some very good coaches who were previously at other local clubs, plus recruited good coaches from outside of the state. 
- Immediately the ECNL teams started bringing in girls from outside clubs during the tryout time period. 
- He worked the deal whereby the club got backing from the MLS club RSL in Utah. That coincided with the girls side getting DA. 
- At the same time Sereno joined up with Legacy (a big club in the SE Valley area of the Phx metro area). 
- This then made the club more attractive to more coaches. 
- The club then merged with a couple of other local clubs.
- In the past couple of months the club was awarded boys DA. Last year and this year the boys did rather well in boys ECNL. 

Currently? 

- It is easily the largest club in the state. 
- The large player pool will help them put out quality teams at all levels. 
- del Sol over time should be a bit worried. Previously with Sereno being passive, del Sol got the best players. That ship has sailed and RSL for most will be the first choice for DA. Being partially subsidized by the MSL and NWSL club helps on the price side make things much more attractive vs del Sol. 
- All of the above has certainly changed things in AZ.


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## Josep

Desert Hound said:


> The big change for Sereno was getting Brent Erwin.
> 
> For years Sereno was hands down the best club in AZ. Then they basically rested on what they had accomplished while other clubs in the area became more aggressive, improved, etc.
> 
> Take ECNL. In AZ you had del Sol and Sereno.
> - del Sol was aggressive in recruiting and over time became the club to go to.
> - Sereno over time had a weaker pool of players to pull from and generally promoted from within to their ECNL teams.
> - The result? Sereno ECNL was very weak. This weakness started to translate to their state teams as well. The perception was the club was not that good.
> 
> The club brought in Erwin 3 yrs ago.
> - He started getting rid of coaches who were just mailing it in.
> - He started getting some very good coaches who were previously at other local clubs, plus recruited good coaches from outside of the state.
> - Immediately the ECNL teams started bringing in girls from outside clubs during the tryout time period.
> - He worked the deal whereby the club got backing from the MLS club RSL in Utah. That coincided with the girls side getting DA.
> - At the same time Sereno joined up with Legacy (a big club in the SE Valley area of the Phx metro area).
> - This then made the club more attractive to more coaches.
> - The club then merged with a couple of other local clubs.
> - In the past couple of months the club was awarded boys DA. Last year and this year the boys did rather well in boys ECNL.
> 
> Currently?
> 
> - It is easily the largest club in the state.
> - The large player pool will help them put out quality teams at all levels.
> - del Sol over time should be a bit worried. Previously with Sereno being passive, del Sol got the best players. That ship has sailed and RSL for most will be the first choice for DA. Being partially subsidized by the MSL and NWSL club helps on the price side make things much more attractive vs del Sol.
> - All of the above has certainly changed things in AZ.



Great story to hear.   You see so much buffoonery in club soccer, it’s nice to see someone seemingly putting all of the right pieces in place.


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