# If your youth coach wants to practice headers...



## oh canada (Jun 28, 2022)

...change teams/clubs.









						CTE discovered in ex-MLS player for first time
					

Researchers have diagnosed CTE in a MLS player for the first time, saying former Sporting KC defender Scott Vermillion suffered from the disease.




					www.espn.com


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## Grace T. (Jun 28, 2022)

oh canada said:


> ...change teams/clubs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s part of the game and a critical part of scoring and defense for the back line, particularly on the boys side.  Just don’t practice it and change teams is not a realistic possibility. The options are:

1. campaign to ban headers from the game (or at least the youth game). It would have to primarily come out of Europe or us soccer development would be substantially harmed.To be clear though, this would substantially limit the ability of the back line to control balls over the top so you’ll see a lot more long balling and punting, and it will reduce corners (which have already declined in effectiveness) to near useless. It’s a radical and complete rethink of the game. 
2. Don’t play your kid in this game if it’s not safe
3. Play your kid in rec or a lower level flight 3 team where headers aren’t as important. 
4. Push us soccer to develop guidelines limiting how headers are practiced and limiting the amount of time practiced among older youth athletes.  But it’s still a skill that needs to be practiced as long as it’s part of the game. 

we already don’t allow them until what….age 12? Not much further you can delay it without impacting development in the long run.


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## espola (Jun 28, 2022)

oh canada said:


> ...change teams/clubs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With proper instruction and training equipment (they make lightweight balls for this purpose) learning good technique will reduce the possibility of injury.


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## dad4 (Jun 28, 2022)

Changing teams is totally an option.  More likely, a conversation with the coach is enough.

This is pay to play youth soccer.  If a coach isn’t willing to respect your safety concerns, there are plenty of other clubs who would be happy to offer your kid a spot.  

You just have to remember that brain development is actually more important than soccer skills development.  Hitting a fast moving object with your head is not actually the best way to get into college.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Changing teams is totally an option.  More likely, a conversation with the coach is enough.
> 
> This is pay to play youth soccer.  If a coach isn’t willing to respect your safety concerns, there are plenty of other clubs who would be happy to offer your kid a spot.
> 
> You just have to remember that brain development is actually more important than soccer skills development.  Hitting a fast moving object with your head is not actually the best way to get into college.


If the team is practicing headers for 30 minutes every practice this is a reasonable position (why is the coach so obsessively focused on this one aspect of the game…are there any that actually do this?)

if your position is that headers should never or rarely be practiced or executed in the game, don’t play the sport (at least at a high level). And it comes up in quite a few tactical exercises including crossing into the box, corners, defensively to the back line (where it is probably among the top 3 defensive skills and the difference between an effective defense and a team which is letting a ton of 1v1 on the gk), and dfks.

soccer is an inherently dangerous sport, much more do than generally recognized (don’t even get me started on the gks skidding at peoples feet).  Headers make it even more dangerous.  Until they change the rules then, maybe it’s too dangerous for your kid to play (at least at a high level)?  Asking a soccer team under the current rules (11v11) to not practice heading is like asking a basketball team to not practice layups or a baseball team to practice fly balls.


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## watfly (Jun 29, 2022)

Based on my experience at the highest level of youth soccer heading is not practiced with much significance, mostly just to teach proper technique.  When it is practiced it is typically done with lightly tossed balls at short distance.  Of course, there will be some opportunity for heading in crossing drills and team scrimmages.  I personally wouldn't recommend heading goals kicks or long free kicks.

Head-to-head (often not from heading) contact or head to ground contact are way more likely to cause a serious concussion.   If you're not comfortable with these inherent risks for your child then maybe you should avoid soccer.  Soccer is a contact sport, those that think otherwise don't understand the sport.


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If the team is practicing headers for 30 minutes every practice this is a reasonable position (why is the coach so obsessively focused on this one aspect of the game…are there any that actually do this?)
> 
> if your position is that headers should never or rarely be practiced or executed in the game, don’t play the sport (at least at a high level). And it comes up in quite a few tactical exercises including crossing into the box, corners, defensively to the back line (where it is probably among the top 3 defensive skills and the difference between an effective defense and a team which is letting a ton of 1v1 on the gk), and dfks.
> 
> soccer is an inherently dangerous sport, much more do than generally recognized (don’t even get me started on the gks skidding at peoples feet).  Headers make it even more dangerous.  Until they change the rules then, maybe it’s too dangerous for your kid to play (at least at a high level)?  Asking a soccer team under the current rules (11v11) to not practice heading is like asking a basketball team to not practice layups or a baseball team to practice fly balls.


Top 3 defensive skills?

So, more important than lesser skills like positioning, reading an attacker, and distribution?

Watch a game, and count the headers.  It’s a small part of the game.  Your kid will still get to play, even if they don’t smash their skull into a one pound object traveling 40 mph.


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## Eagle33 (Jun 29, 2022)

oh canada said:


> ...change teams/clubs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just find a different sport?? Chess comes to mind = no contact and no headers


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## NorCalUSN (Jun 29, 2022)

i dyd hederz awl da timey wen i plaid az youse plaier da iz nuding rong with meye brian

Jokes aside, form and control should be important, I think limits for youth players is a good idea and some of the new training equipment is helpful. Every parent should be informed and ask their youth coach his thoughts feelings and make the best decision for their children.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Top 3 defensive skills?
> 
> So, more important than lesser skills like positioning, reading an attacker, and distribution?
> 
> Watch a game, and count the headers.  It’s a small part of the game.  Your kid will still get to play, even if they don’t smash their skull into a one pound object traveling 40 mph.


In the boys game, even on the games I watch online, from mls to silver, on average each team will have at least 4 from the defensive line per game, particularly cbs, and excluding corner/cross defense.  More if the opposite team is trying to get a lot of through balls over the line in the air or the gk is punting. The boys also just knock it up into the air for aerial contests a lot at all levels.

if my gk son we’re on a higher level team where the defenders refused To go for the aerial balls, and as a result he were having to 1v1 often (against such a team playing over the top maybe as many as 20 times a game), putting himself at more risk not to mention getting blamed for more goals, the coach and I would certainly have a discussion.  And I guarantee that I wouldn’t be the only parent he’d be hearing from as they yell what’s the matter with our defense


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> In the boys game, even on the games I watch online, from mls to silver, on average each team will have at least 4 from the defensive line per game, particularly cbs, and excluding corner/cross defense.  More if the opposite team is trying to get a lot of through balls over the line in the air or the gk is punting. The boys also just knock it up into the air for aerial contests a lot at all levels.
> 
> if my gk son we’re on a higher level team where the defenders refused To go for the aerial balls, and as a result he were having to 1v1 often (against such a team playing over the top maybe as many as 20 times a game), putting himself at more risk not to mention getting blamed for more goals, the coach and I would certainly have a discussion.  And I guarantee that I wouldn’t be the only parent he’d be hearing from as they yell what’s the matter with our defense


You would go yell at the coach because you have an issue with some other child’s field performance?

Wow.  Think about that for a second.

Risk to goalkeepers is a separate problem, more serious than headers.  And it gets worse when clubs promote a younger keeper because they ran out of older kids willing to take the risk.   But you’re not going to solve it by asking the cb to head the other team’s boot balls.


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## espola (Jun 29, 2022)

Both of my sons were removed from games for suspected concussions by an athletic trainer at the game site.  One was for a head-to-head collision, the other from being hit in the head by a hard-kicked ball while standing in the wall in front of a free kick.  Practicing headers wasn't the problem in either case.


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## paytoplayisgood (Jun 29, 2022)

oh canada said:


> ...change teams/clubs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man up kiddo


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> You would go yell at the coach because you have an issue with some other child’s field performance?
> 
> Wow.  Think about that for a second.
> 
> Risk to goalkeepers is a separate problem, more serious than headers.  And it gets worse when clubs promote a younger keeper because they ran out of older kids willing to take the risk.   But you’re not going to solve it by asking the cb to head the other team’s boot balls.


No I would have a discussion with the coach (and again I wouldn’t be the only one) if my kid was having 10-20 1v1s a game, putting himself at risk and getting blamed for giving up the goal.  I guess I wouldn’t have to if the coach told my kid “eh…don’t worry about it Billy…if those balls happen they happen but we don’t expect you to cover for the mistakes of the defender…just sit on your line and do your best”…but then the coach probably has bigger problems than just me and that team isn’t likely to survive (most likely the cb gets dropped not for refusing to head but for being utterly ineffective). Btw my kid played in fact on such a team (not because the cb refuses to head but it lost its two best cbs and one of the others was too unfit to challenge those balls during covid restart). It wasn’t pretty

ive found that even more than gk errors coaches are the least tolerant of poor cbs on the boys end.Besides strikers they are usually the most talented and usually the tallest on the team. A cb that refuses to head isn’t going to last long anywhere flight 2 or higher let alone mls/encl.


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> No I would have a discussion with the coach (and again I wouldn’t be the only one) if my kid was having 10-20 1v1s a game, putting himself at risk and getting blamed for giving up the goal.  I guess I wouldn’t have to if the coach told my kid “eh…don’t worry about it Billy…if those balls happen they happen but we don’t expect you to cover for the mistakes of the defender…just sit on your line and do your best”…but then the coach probably has bigger problems than just me and that team isn’t likely to survive (most likely the cb gets dropped not for refusing to head but for being utterly ineffective). Btw my kid played in fact on such a team (not because the cb refuses to head but it lost its two best cbs and one of the others was too unfit to challenge those balls during covid restart). It wasn’t pretty
> 
> ive found that even more than gk errors coaches are the least tolerant of poor cbs on the boys end.Besides strikers they are usually the most talented and usually the tallest on the team. A cb that refuses to head isn’t going to last long anywhere flight 2 or higher let alone mls/encl.


There are very effective defensive backs who rarely head the ball.  Kiki Pickett comes to mind.  Consistent YNT player, Pac-12 defender of the year and #4 overall draft pick.  Currently plays for NC Courage.

She’s also 5’0”.  You won’t find many videos of her going up for a contested header.  

You were saying something about how no defensive back ever gets above flight 2 without lots of headers?


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

paytoplayisgood said:


> Man up kiddo


Awwww.  Does our sociopathic DOC feel more manly when he watches little kids get concussed?

Tough.  It’s pay to play kiddie soccer.  When a parent is willing to walk, you have no power.  You can respect their wishes, or you can watch a more agreeable coch cash the check.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> There are very effective defensive backs who rarely head the ball.  Kiki Pickett comes to mind.  Consistent YNT player, Pac-12 defender of the year and #4 overall draft pick.  Currently plays for NC Courage.
> 
> She’s also 5’0”.  You won’t find many videos of her going up for a contested header.
> 
> You were saying something about how no defensive back ever gets above flight 2 without lots of headers?


I’m talking about the boys game and you throw up a 5’0” woman in response?


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 29, 2022)

Eagle33 said:


> Just find a different sport?? Chess comes to mind = no contact and no headers


Would argue it’s not a sport….


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## watfly (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I’m talking about the boys game and you throw up a 5’0” woman in response?


Women have much greater things to worry about than headers in soccer, likely those deadly hair beads that fracture skulls.


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I’m talking about the boys game and you throw up a 5’0” woman in response?


The point still stands.  There are good soccer players who don't head the ball much.  Messi would be the obvious example on the men's side.  

Or is there some reason he doesn't count?


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> The point still stands.  There are good soccer players who don't head the ball much.  Messi would be the obvious example on the men's side.
> 
> Or is there some reason he doesn't count?


Always playing to the exception and not the rule.


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## Woodwork (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> The point still stands.  There are good soccer players who don't head the ball much.  Messi would be the obvious example on the men's side.
> 
> Or is there some reason he doesn't count?


All interactions with Grace T are:

You: In general...
GT: Exception..
You: But 99.9%.
GT: Talks about the 0.1% at length.
You: [Has a point.]
GT: [Will never concede your point, will raise an aside to maintain GT's right without ever acknowledging your point.]
You: Word.
GT: Last word.
You: Word.
GT: Last word.
You: [Eventually realizes it is about the last word and has life, so gives up posting.]


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## Woodwork (Jun 29, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Always playing to the exception and not the rule.


I don't think Messi is the exception.  He may be at one end of the spectrum, but certain positions and styles of play don't head as much.  The CTE case cited is a defender.  Defenders head the ball way more than anyone else on the field.

That all aside, we left a team recently after it seemed like the coach was putting certain players on defense regularly in danger.  A pile of injuries at the CB/Goalie positions and multiple concussions.  None of them from headers, just from reckless plays.  Reviewing the tape, I could bake it down to not coaching how to properly defend individually and as a team.

I used to be very into an extreme sport.  After a while you realize you need to learn how to properly bail, how to evaluate safety before committing, and to accept safety gear despite discomfort or dorkiness.  Do those things and you can do the sport more and longer.  There is probably a middle ground between "man up" and quitting.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> The point still stands.  There are good soccer players who don't head the ball much.  Messi would be the obvious example on the men's side.
> 
> Or is there some reason he doesn't count?


The point under discussion was the defensive line in the boys game. Of course the mids head less than front back or keepers but they do it too. Why are you citing an exception to the rule?

the girls may or may not be the same. I don’t know. I haven’t seen enough games to tell so I have no opinion


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> The point under discussion was the defensive line in the boys game. Of course the mids head less than front back or keepers but they do it too. Why are you citing an exception to the rule?
> 
> the girls may or may not be the same. I don’t know. I haven’t seen enough games to tell so I have no opinion


Only boys and only defense?

The original post had neither of those restrictions.  

It was a broad claim about heading in youth soccer, in general.  Now you're trying to limit that discussion to only one gender and only 2-4 positions.  

Enough with the revisionism.  You don't get to limit the discussion to some small subset where you think your argument is stronger.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Only boys and only defense?
> 
> The original post had neither of those restrictions.
> 
> ...


As usual you always seek to refrain the discussion in the way it suits you. The post you replied to specifically talked about the boys game. I don’t know whether it’s true or not of the girls game so I can’t take a position.

the points I raised in the boys games was practice was critical because headers are integral to scoring on crosses and headers, the defensive line (which you took issue with and cited a female defender) and dfks. You haven’t rebutted any of those assertions other than to say Messi is a midfielder…he heads less…even though he still heads and all you have to do is search “Messi header” on YouTube and you’ll pull up a bunch.  You’ve pointed out one female exception and one lesser occurrence to argue heading somehow heading isn’t important to the game.

you always seek to bend reality to justify the world you want to see instead of world like it is. Heading is critical to the boys game under current rules and must be practiced as a result. You’ve said nothing that rebuts that.


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> As usual you always seek to refrain the discussion in the way it suits you. The post you replied to specifically talked about the boys game. I don’t know whether it’s true or not of the girls game so I can’t take a position.
> 
> the points I raised in the boys games was practice was critical because headers are integral to scoring on crosses and headers, the defensive line (which you took issue with and cited a female defender) and dfks. You haven’t rebutted any of those assertions other than to say Messi is a midfielder…he heads less…even though he still heads and all you have to do is search “Messi header” on YouTube and you’ll pull up a bunch.  You’ve pointed out one female exception and one lesser occurrence to argue heading somehow heading isn’t important to the game.
> 
> you always seek to bend reality to justify the world you want to see instead of world like it is. Heading is critical to the boys game under current rules and must be practiced as a result. You’ve said nothing that rebuts that.


OP was not restricted by gender or position:

"If your youth coach wants to practice headers...
....change teams/clubs."

The only reference to boys or defense was a link to the tragic story of a young man who died at 44 from complications of CTE.

Ok.  So let's talk about the consequences from that link.

In effect, you are saying- " yeah, you might get brain damage and permanent migraines so bad you overdose on painkillers, but we need you to head the ball so we can win a youth soccer game."


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## oh canada (Jun 29, 2022)

This discussion sounds very similar to the football CTE discussions 10-20yrs ago. Until we see more MLS guys killing themselves like Junior Seau and Aaron Hernandez, the majority will not believe that their beloved sport of soccer causes brain trauma. My original point is fairly simple...if you have a coach that likes to practice headers from corner kicks etc. once a week or every other week for 20-30 minutes, I would seriously question his/her judgment, suggest a different approach, and take a hike if they refuse to change. I don't want to wait 30 years to see if my kid can't function due to CTE from weekly headers at 14yrs old. But I guess I'm soft.


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## espola (Jun 29, 2022)

oh canada said:


> This discussion sounds very similar to the football CTE discussions 10-20yrs ago. Until we see more MLS guys killing themselves like Junior Seau and Aaron Hernandez, the majority will not believe that their beloved sport of soccer causes brain trauma. My original point is fairly simple...if you have a coach that likes to practice headers from corner kicks etc. once a week or every other week for 20-30 minutes, I would seriously question his/her judgment, suggest a different approach, and take a hike if they refuse to change. I don't want to wait 30 years to see if my kid can't function due to CTE from weekly headers at 14yrs old. But I guess I'm soft.


Just throwing a ball into a crowd and shouting "head it!" is not practicing headers, it is practicing mayhem.  Proper heading technique is taught one on one, with the coach demonstrating and then correcting the player's actions until he gets it right.

Note: use of the word "he" above is not intended to restrict the discussion to male players only.


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## Grace T. (Jun 29, 2022)

dad4 said:


> OP was not restricted by gender or position:
> 
> "If your youth coach wants to practice headers...
> ....change teams/clubs."
> ...


we are back to the original premise (don’t you love how how we go round and round). Heading is an integral part of the (boys) game. It must be practiced

if you think that so dangerous don’t play

if you don’t like the don’t play result campaign to change the game (you better by your ticket to Europe because that’s who has to change it…the us will never put itself at a competitive disadvantage while the Europeans allow headers in the youth game)

otherwise mitigate it by playing at a lower level, play the midfield where it’s not as important, and encourage the coaches to take steps like using safe equipment. Most coaches on the boys end though at the higher levels aren’t practicing headed techniques by throwing balls at player by age 14. It’s expected they know it and at age 12-13 they really focus on it usually in skills training.  By 14 they are practicing running crosses, corner scrums, dfk and the defensive line.  They are doing it in small sided scrimmages. At least on the boys end Saying my kid won’t head is a guarantee of getting them dropped to a lower placed team


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## espola (Jun 29, 2022)

Speaking of heading, whatever happened to the Full90 headband?


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## dad4 (Jun 29, 2022)

espola said:


> Speaking of heading, whatever happened to the Full90 headband?


Storelli headbands fit better.


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## crush (Jun 30, 2022)

toucan said:


> I dispute the validity of comparing headers to the helmet-to-helmet hits made by American football players like Junior Seau and Aaron Hernandez.  Those guys weigh over 200 pounds, are running at speed at the time of the impact, and are intentionally trying to deliver hard hits to the other guy.  They will have body and head impacts 30 times in a game or more.  By comparison, a properly-inflated soccer ball is a softer body in motion, weighing slightly less than a pound, and flying at a predictable trajectory.  In a professional game, a typical soccer player may only head the ball 2 or 3 times, and most of those balls are not moving very fast.  Obviously, free kicks, punts and hard driven balls like crosses have greater energy.
> 
> While I respect your concern about the potential for CTE in soccer, I think you greatly overstate the risk insofar as headers are concerned.  Again, most soccer-related concussions are caused by *other *types of contact with the head.  Personally, I have never seen a concussion arise from an intentional header, though I don't doubt that it could happen.  And while I agree that too much practicing of headers is unnecessary and unwise, I have never personally met the coach who spends the amount of time practicing headers as you describe.
> 
> If you are concerned about headers, then your child is already 12 years old or above.  If the science catches up and says that headers cause CTE, that won't happen for a decade at least.  Your son or daughter will have aged out before then.  If you act according to your beliefs, then you must tell your child not to do headers in practices or games.  This will have consequences.  Your child will not be able to play competitive soccer during his or her youth unless he or she is willing to head the ball.  Others will take your child's spot in the line-up.


I played 8 years AYSO and I could never master it and I gave up.  I got a headache every time I tried and is probably why I got GK job. I told my little one not get into jump balls and NOT try and head and jump with the big girls. She only will use her head to score a goal and the game better have something on the line or she is not going in with her head. Using your head to score makes the game fun to watch and cause GK to get frozen.


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

toucan said:


> If you are concerned about headers, then your child is already 12 years old or above.  If the science catches up and says that headers cause CTE, that won't happen for a decade at least.


Wouldn’t my child already have suffered the damage by that time?


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Wouldn’t my child already have suffered the damage by that time?


Then don’t have them play…..simple as that.


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## watfly (Jun 30, 2022)

toucan said:


> I dispute the validity of comparing headers to the helmet-to-helmet hits made by American football players like Junior Seau and Aaron Hernandez.  Those guys weigh over 200 pounds, are running at speed at the time of the impact, and are intentionally trying to deliver hard hits to the other guy.  They will have body and head impacts 30 times in a game or more.  By comparison, a properly-inflated soccer ball is a softer body in motion, weighing slightly less than a pound, and flying at a predictable trajectory.  In a professional game, a typical soccer player may only head the ball 2 or 3 times, and most of those balls are not moving very fast.  Obviously, free kicks, punts and hard driven balls like crosses have greater energy.
> 
> While I respect your concern about the potential for CTE in soccer, I think you greatly overstate the risk insofar as headers are concerned.  Again, most soccer-related concussions are caused by *other *types of contact with the head.  Personally, I have never seen a concussion arise from an intentional header, though I don't doubt that it could happen.  And while I agree that too much practicing of headers is unnecessary and unwise, I have never personally met the coach who spends the amount of time practicing headers as you describe.
> 
> If you are concerned about headers, then your child is already 12 years old or above.  If the science catches up and says that headers cause CTE, that won't happen for a decade at least.  Your son or daughter will have aged out before then.  If you act according to your beliefs, then you must tell your child not to do headers in practices or games.  This will have consequences.  Your child will not be able to play competitive soccer during his or her youth unless he or she is willing to head the ball.  Others will take your child's spot in the line-up.


Very well said.  I would just add the concussion awareness has improved significantly in soccer the last few years.  For the DA and the MLS Next they had/have concussion baseline testing of each player at the beginning of the season and are supposed to follow strict concussion protocols.   Even in a 30 minute crossing drill there aren't not that many headers.   While an integral part of the game, headers aren't practiced much or actually done much in a game.   To repeat to the OP if your worried about CTE from soccer, headers aren't the significant issue.  

Slide tackles are an integral part of the game as well, and make you vulnerable to getting kicked in the head (as my son can attest).  Where does the list stop of things your going to tell the coach your son won't do?  Will only play on soft fields etc?


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Then don’t have them play…..simple as that.


Or teach them foot skills.  That works too.

Not sure where you get the idea that every coach insists on heading clearance balls.  The coaches I have met are far more reasonable than that.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Or teach them foot skills.  That works too.
> 
> Not sure where you get the idea that every coach insists on heading clearance balls.  The coaches I have met are far more reasonable than that.


Heading is a part of the game.  Would you like to get rid of punts, set pieces and corners to further reduce the potential for injury?

Please show me where I even insinuated that every coach insists on this.


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## NorCalDad (Jun 30, 2022)

watfly said:


> Women have much greater things to worry about than headers in soccer, likely those deadly hair beads that fracture skulls.


In all seriousness, I read this a ways back:









						Head-injury risk higher for female soccer players, massive survey finds
					

Data on the rates and causes of concussion in US high-school athletes reveal striking differences between the sexes.




					www.nature.com
				



.


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## watfly (Jun 30, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> In all seriousness, I read this a ways back:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe the same can be said for knee injuries particularly ACL which I've heard may be a function of anatomy.  Difference in concussions?


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## NorCalDad (Jun 30, 2022)

I played CB, I simply don't know how that position could be played effectively without heading the ball.  The game would change drastically if they removed headers from the game.  

I do think it would be great if we taught kids more possession based play and less ping pong ball.  Even watching some of the MLS Next Cup games I cringe a bit.


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

Kicker 2.0 said:


> Heading is a part of the game.  Would you like to get rid of punts, set pieces and corners to further reduce the potential for injury?
> 
> Please show me where I even insinuated that every coach insists on this.


More accurate to say that both Grace and Toucan put forward that, if you insist on no headers, your kid will lose their spot.  So far, this has not been my experience.  Not heading just means you need to work harder on traps and foot skills.

For now, heading is a part of the game.  Flopping at minor contact and lining up 3 yards from the free kick are also part of the game.  Some parts of the game don’t actually make the game better.  

Eventually, FIFA might actually take a break from lining their pockets with bribes and think for a moment about player safety.  Probably not.


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

watfly said:


> I believe the same can be said for knee injuries particularly ACL which I've heard may be a function of anatomy.  Difference in concussions?


Look at neck size and head mass.  Girls have slimmer necks and smaller heads, both of which put them at greater risk of concussion.  About 6x, if I remember right.


----------



## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Look at neck size and head mass.  Girls have slimmer necks and smaller heads, both of which put them at greater risk of concussion.  About 6x, if I remember right.


nature put it at 2x.


----------



## tjinaz (Jun 30, 2022)

watfly said:


> Very well said.  I would just add the concussion awareness has improved significantly in soccer the last few years.  For the DA and the MLS Next they had/have concussion baseline testing of each player at the beginning of the season and are supposed to follow strict concussion protocols.   Even in a 30 minute crossing drill there aren't not that many headers.   While an integral part of the game, headers aren't practiced much or actually done much in a game.   To repeat to the OP if your worried about CTE from soccer, headers aren't the significant issue.
> 
> Slide tackles are an integral part of the game as well, and make you vulnerable to getting kicked in the head (as my son can attest).  Where does the list stop of things your going to tell the coach your son won't do?  Will only play on soft fields etc?


This... My DD is a defender and starting at about U15 if you are trying to bring the ball down and play it with a forward on you rather than head it away (including long balls and keeper punts) at elite levels and high school you will be pulled.  You try to bring it down with chest or thigh and you just created a 50/50 ball in your own 1/3 with nothing between you and the keeper.  Unacceptable.  Its just a fact and coaches know it.  Heading is a very important skill as a defender and if the player doesn't do it or does it wrong they won't last in that role.  While practicing 20min every practice seems excessive they need to practice technique just like every other skill and the proper technique will actually reduce their risk of injury.  Using the muscles in the neck to absorb the impact rather than just letting it smash your skull makes a difference.  

 A single concussion will not cause CTE it is the repeated blows to an area that is already damaged.  This is why the concussion protocols exist.  Player gets concussed they need to come out immediately and stay out for at least 24 hrs.  Tossing a ball and heading it will not cause CTE.  It is the hard hits player/player, player/ground, player/goalpost and then another in the same area before the first one heals.


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## Paul Spacey (Jun 30, 2022)

Heading is a small part of the game, especially at grassroots level.

Should kids be taught how to head the ball with the correct technique to avoid injury and concussion? Absolutely.

Is it really necessary to practice headers often during training for grassroots teams? No.

Teach your players to get themselves into the correct position and understand/anticipate the game in such a way that heading the ball can be minimized. If you are exceptional with your soccer IQ and feet, any lack of heading ability won't matter much. You can coach your players how to position themselves and put someone off (physically) so that they cannot get a clean header during a challenge; that way, any kids who are hesitant about heading the ball or potentially clashing heads, can still compete and just do their thing once the ball comes down 

"If God had wanted us to play football in the clouds, he'd have put grass up there." Brian Clough. Legend.


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> More accurate to say that both Grace and Toucan put forward that, if you insist on no headers, your kid will lose their spot.  So far, this has not been my experience.  Not heading just means you need to work harder on traps and foot skills.
> 
> For now, heading is a part of the game.  Flopping at minor contact and lining up 3 yards from the free kick are also part of the game.  Some parts of the game don’t actually make the game better.
> 
> Eventually, FIFA might actually take a break from lining their pockets with bribes and think for a moment about player safety.  Probably not.


Are you insinuating that heading a ball is as useless in game as flopping and lining up 3 yds fro a free kick?

Did you play soccer?


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## Larzby (Jun 30, 2022)

espola said:


> Speaking of heading, whatever happened to the Full90 headband?


Yes, concussions have happened from youth players intentionally heading the ball, both when using proper form and not.  Unfortunately, there is little convincing evidence that the headbands designed to lessen the risk actually do so.  
It is important to keep in mind that this exact same discussion was had not long ago with american football.  The NFL says they have a concussion protocol, but there is a near certainty that repeated sub-concussive hits over time also result in CTE.
Luckily, there is a big difference between soccer and american football regarding hits to the head.  But if we are honest with ourselves, can we really doubt that the inexorable march has begun before we find out that heading in soccer has some negative results especially after many years of playing at a high level.
Every parent should discuss this topic with their children playing soccer and with their coach/club, and make a decision for their family based on their own assessment.  However, don't go into the decision thinking we've scraped the depths of the scientific understanding of the consequences, because it is more likely that we are only starting to understand, and the article linked is a good example of what might be out there.


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## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Or teach them foot skills.  That works too.
> 
> Not sure where you get the idea that every coach insists on heading clearance balls.  The coaches I have met are far more reasonable than that.


Because for the aerials (either on defense or offense) the other players are attempting to win it at the highest point (not to mention the keeper with his hands). If you wait for it to be chested down and use the feet, the keeper already has it or the forward has put it forward and an attacker is 1v1 with the keeper

in the boys game, higher levels, this is a ludicrous suggestion.


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## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2022)

Paul Spacey said:


> Heading is a small part of the game, especially at grassroots level.
> 
> Should kids be taught how to head the ball with the correct technique to avoid injury and concussion? Absolutely.
> 
> ...


At the grassroots levels I agree they do it at lot less. It’s hard to get the ball in the perfect zone. I wonder how folks would feel about banning headers for flight 2 and below?

the ball over the top (along with the thru ball) is one of deadliest balls and one of the few scoring opportunities in the boys game at higher levels. It forces the defender to choose. Fall back too far and you put the attacker onside with only you and the gk behind you.Too forward and you’ve let the ball into open space 1v1 with the keeper. For the keepers too it’s one of the hardest skills: they need to decide whether to guard the space behind the line and sweep or whether to fall back and protect the goal…but the one zone they can’t defend is the space immediately behind the back line…a ball goes in there and it’s one of the few times the defender is clearly at fault and the goalkeeper is rightly screaming at them. That area is 100% the defenders area and both defenders and strikers are trying to win it at the highest point (the striker to put it into the area behind the line, the defender to the mids). Learning proper positioning is all fine and good but it doesn’t eliminate this tradeoff.  It’s a direct consequence of the offside rule (made worse by the ability of the gk to punt or to gk it long [in this last case with No offside restrictions])


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## golazo7 (Jun 30, 2022)

The cumulative risk of dying in a car accident from all the driving we do in crazy SoCal to practices, games, and tournaments is probably higher than the risk of developing CTE from headers


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

golazo7 said:


> The cumulative risk of dying in a car accident from all the driving we do in crazy SoCal to practices, games, and tournaments is probably higher than the risk of developing CTE from headers


Cognitive decline from heading is apparently pretty common:



			https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887617702001518
		


“Players with the highest lifetime estimates of heading had poorer scores on scales measuring attention, concentration, cognitive flexibility and general intellectual functioning.”

Text further down shows significant cognitive impairment in 20-80% of players, depending on the study.


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## golazo7 (Jun 30, 2022)

It’s not helpful to cherry pick data 

here’s more recent data that refutes these findings









						Heading in football, long-term cognitive decline and dementia: evidence from screening retired professional footballers - PubMed
					

These results suggest that once a player ends their playing career, their risk of harm falls in line with the population, suggesting either that changes are reversible or that heading may not be as harmful as commonly thought. Future longitudinal studies of large numbers of professional football...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





My general point is that there is inherent risk in so much we do already. It’s up to each family to mitigate as we see fit.


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## NorCalDad (Jun 30, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Cognitive decline from heading is apparently pretty common:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm...maybe I could've gotten that Ph.D......

Of course I used to skateboard without a helmet too...


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## Kicker 2.0 (Jun 30, 2022)

golazo7 said:


> It’s not helpful to cherry pick data


He’s famous for it……


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## watfly (Jun 30, 2022)

golazo7 said:


> My general point is that there is inherent risk in so much we do already. It’s up to each family to mitigate as we see fit.


Agreed, but there are some that believe its up to the institutions or someone else to protect them from risk, ie "Nanny Staters".



NorCalDad said:


> Hmmm...maybe I could've gotten that Ph.D......
> 
> Of course I used to skateboard without a helmet too...


Drink water out of a hose?  Lawn darts? WD40 a tennis ball and kick it around after you lighted it on fire?


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## dad4 (Jun 30, 2022)

golazo7 said:


> It’s not helpful to cherry pick data
> 
> here’s more recent data that refutes these findings
> 
> ...


Not much of a refutation.  It says “yes, there is cognitive impairment, but it mostly does away after a while.”

No thanks.  I’ll keep focusing on foot skills.


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## Grace T. (Jun 30, 2022)

My gk son and I just had a discussion about balls over the top in the boys game over dinner (other than the Uswnt, and a few games from his gf and cousin, he hasn’t seen enough of the girls game to judge)

He was very animated. He said balls over the top are probably the third toughest play he faces…after cutbacks on the ground and cutbacks in the air. Unlike a thru ball on the ground, he says it’s one he and his gk peers worry about because the ball is out of control and unlike the ground there is no really fixed routine to stop it.  It makes it more dangerous for them and the two times he’s had a serious collision has been with this type of ball.

he said that the thru ball on the ground is probably a result of a defensive tactical mistake and he bears part of the responsibility for failing to see it. But the ball on the air is totally the defenders responsibility for failing to challenge the aerial. He said he’d totally go off on a teammate that put him in that situation by whincing away from the aerial (gks yell a lot), it would absolutely destroy the trust which is so important between the cb and gk (trust which he recognizes go both ways and which in the past he’s merited a loss of) and that a player that did that wouldn’t survive long in the higher level boys game. He brought up the bad experience he had with these balls on one team that led to 4-8 1v1s a game and he said it was absolutely awful (no but I’m grateful I got better on 1v1s…just it sucked).

it was a good convo so thanks for that…was surprised his feelings on the subject were stronger than mine. As to the risks he said there’s a lot riskier stuff going on in soccer and if the adults feel it isn’t safe for kids they should change the rules, but not by throwing gks under the bus.


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## Brav520 (Jun 30, 2022)

crush said:


> I played 8 years AYSO and I could never master it and I gave up.  I got a headache every time I tried and is probably why I got GK job. I told my little one not get into jump balls and NOT try and head and jump with the big girls. She only will use her head to score a goal and the game better have something on the line or she is not going in with her head. Using your head to score makes the game fun to watch and cause GK to get frozen.


4:20 , Drogba vs Bayern in CL finals to put it ET is my vote, where I think he scored the final PK for Chelsea to win it  . Insane skill


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## tjinaz (Jul 1, 2022)

golazo7 said:


> It’s not helpful to cherry pick data
> 
> here’s more recent data that refutes these findings
> 
> ...


I read that and think of all the head bangers at metal shows.  Probably the same thing.


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## dad4 (Jul 1, 2022)

toucan said:


> I would urge people to read the Abstract from the study.  It sounds like the risk of CTE is not very high when it comes to headers.  In the end, the "risk of harm falls in line with the population."  This study should not be the last word on the matter.  Only 92 subjects were included.  But if this is the best we have right now, then the evidence does *not* support a claim that heading causes CTE.
> 
> *Abstract*
> *Background: *Heading impairs cognition in the short and medium-terms; however, little is known about the long-term consequences. This study aimed to investigate the hypothesis that chronic low-level head trauma is associated with persistent cognitive decline.
> ...


Who said that one study is the best we have?

It is a self-assessment study with only 92 participants from 8 years ago.  It is neither particularly recent nor particularly thorough.  

However, if you start with a desire to tell yourself that headers are safe, it satisfies that particular need.


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## espola (Jul 1, 2022)

toucan said:


> 1.  It is the best study that has been presented here.  If you got a better one, then it is incumbent upon you to show us.  As I said, it should not be the last word.  More research is definitely appropriate.
> 
> 2.  As to your second point ("if you desire to tell yourself that headers are safe, it satisfies that particular need..."), what your are really doing is accusing me of deductive reasoning, meaning that I have formed a conclusion and no contrary evidence will be admitted.  As my posts show, I do not foreclose the possibility that headers might cause CTE, but the best evidence presented so far does not support that position.
> 
> ...


Good post, except I think you have the definition of "deductive reasoning" a little wrong.


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## zebrafish (Jul 1, 2022)

Props to dad4 for bringing more than opinion into this conversation. 

Pure and simple, there isn't any well-done scientific evidence that I've seen which convincingly shows heading the ball is actually safe. And I do look at this primary literature. Talk to neurologists/neurosurgeons, they'll tell you the same thing.

It is a historically woefully understudied topic that thankfully is getting more attention and research dollars. 

What is clear is that the more carefully people look with imaging and functional studies at heading, the more they find that heading the ball *isn't* good for the brain. And this risk probably extrapolates down to a situation where there isn't a "safe" or "ok" amount of heading. The same can be said of alcohol consumption and cancer risk. 

There's not firm science behind the age threshold that US Soccer set in regards to heading (12 years), but I'm glad they did... something.

Interestingly, the EPL came out last year with guidance on heading in all players (https://www.premierleague.com/heading-guidance)-- that includes adults and pros.

It is definitely clear from the science that girls' concussion risk is significantly higher than boys' in soccer, and the biomechanics behind this likely translate into headers being worse for female players than male players. The EPL link discusses that some.

I think the game should eliminate heading. We would all adapt. It would still be beautiful. 

We can all talk about acceptable risk and where to set that threshold. But I think better information is needed for people to really understand the risks that they are inflicting on their kids (that many don't realize are there, especially from this conversation...).

To anyone who says you can't play at top levels without heading the ball, I say to you: Son Heung-min scored zero goals with his head last year. And, oh yeah, he tied for the golden boot in the EPL. Something like 2% or fewer of Messi's goals have come from heading the ball. I could go on. Yes, there are some very talented players in the air--- but it isn't critical for the game in all players. 

I played the game for 30+ years and headed the ball many times (yes, with proper technique)-- occasionally seeing stars for a few seconds. That's not good. Do I wish I could eliminate that from my past? Absolutely. And I don't want my kids to be there either.


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## dad4 (Jul 1, 2022)

toucan said:


> 1.  It is the best study that has been presented here.  If you got a better one, then it is incumbent upon you to show us.  As I said, it should not be the last word.  More research is definitely appropriate.
> 
> 2.  As to your second point ("if you desire to tell yourself that headers are safe, it satisfies that particular need..."), what your are really doing is accusing me of deductive reasoning, meaning that I have formed a conclusion and no contrary evidence will be admitted.  As my posts show, I do not foreclose the possibility that headers might cause CTE, but the best evidence presented so far does not support that position.
> 
> ...


I do follow my own advice.  My kid does not head clearance balls.  

There is plenty of evidence that concussions and sub-concussive impacts are a problem in soccer.  The nature of that relationship is the sort of thing they write survey articles about:



			https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/cnc-2020-0004
		


To present one of those 100 or so studies and say “here’s the last word“ or “this is the best study” is kind of silly.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> My gk son and I just had a discussion about balls over the top in the boys game over dinner (other than the Uswnt, and a few games from his gf and cousin, he hasn’t seen enough of the girls game to judge)
> 
> He was very animated. He said balls over the top are probably the third toughest play he faces…after cutbacks on the ground and cutbacks in the air. Unlike a thru ball on the ground, he says it’s one he and his gk peers worry about because the ball is out of control and unlike the ground there is no really fixed routine to stop it.  It makes it more dangerous for them and the two times he’s had a serious collision has been with this type of ball.
> 
> ...


Ps he said that if you are going to eliminate risky stuff start with goalkeepers sliding. It’s a gk wishlist fantasy but his idea is if the gk is sliding in the box the striker has to yield the ball to the gk on pain Of a yellow card. I told him to keep dreaming.


zebrafish said:


> I think the game should eliminate heading. We would all adapt. It would still be beautiful.
> 
> We can all talk about acceptable risk and where to set that threshold. But I think better information is needed for people to really understand the risks that they are inflicting on their kids (that many don't realize are there, especially from this conversation...).
> 
> ...


The immediate impact on offense would be minimal.  You just could never cross or corner the ball in the air between the penalty spot and the gl because the goalkeeper will have too much of a height advantage in grabbing it and the low cutback would become more of a go to option (an option which is harder for the crosser to properly execute than an aerial). You could also just eliminate the goalkeeper from the game.

the problem with the back line is harder. I don’t see any solution to it other than an aerial ball over the last defender will automatically be called offside and to ban the goalkeeper from punting. It would lead to much more stoppages.

Because otherwise the only thing you are going to get is goalkeepers punting and defenders long balling the ball over the top of the opposing line leading to footraces.  All soccer games would look like some of the u10 games we see around town where it’s just see who is faster.  These aerial balls are also ugly and require little skill to create a foot race whereas a thru ball on the ground requires some tactical creativity.  They’ll also increase the number of 1v1s on goalkeepers putting them more at risk.  Games would be a lot more high scoring but certainly less beautiful.


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## Mosafie (Jul 1, 2022)

There is now evidence that even repetitive lighter contact with the head can cause CTE. That's all lawyers need.

America is a land of litigation. The reason there are no headers in youth soccer is because of a class action lawsuit in 2015 against US Soccer Federation which was settled and eliminated headers as part of the settlement.

Any coach that is wasting a lot of time practicing  headers, which have a very small impact on the game is not only putting players at risk but also himself and his club to litigation. 

Sure incidental head contact and concussion are part of soccer however accidents are different than  repetitive  intentional head impacts that are going to attract the wrong kind of attention.


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## Woodwork (Jul 1, 2022)

dad4 said:


> I do follow my own advice.  My kid does not head clearance balls.
> 
> There is plenty of evidence that concussions and sub-concussive impacts are a problem in soccer.  The nature of that relationship is the sort of thing they write survey articles about:
> 
> ...


I think you and I both agree that the safest thing is for some other kid to head the ball to our kids' feet.  Don't argue too persuasively now.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

Mosafie said:


> There is now evidence that even repetitive lighter contact with the head can cause CTE. That's all lawyers need.
> 
> America is a land of litigation. The reason there are no headers in youth soccer is because of a class action lawsuit in 2015 against US Soccer Federation which was settled and eliminated headers as part of the settlement.
> 
> ...


If litigation were to get to this point (that heading gets banned in the us youth game) it ends in one of two places.  First, if the over 18 teams continue to be able to do it, the us winds up being woefully unprepared on the international stage, the dominance of the Uswnt ends and the men will largely go off to Europe at age 12 to train. Second if the 18-21 get banned too or even the pros, the us just gets redlined by fifa. The litigation probably also results in youth gridiron football getting banned in the us. 

we aren’t in the drivers seat on this one. Change, if it comes, has to come from Europe.


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## dad4 (Jul 1, 2022)

Woodwork said:


> I think you and I both agree that the safest thing is for some other kid to head the ball to our kids' feet.  Don't argue too persuasively now.


I’d be perfectly happy with my kid playing for a team or league where no one heads the ball.

It’s just soccer.  Maybe they lose a game or two.  That’s better than finding out 20 years from now that her best friend turned to alcohol to get rid of the migraines.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If litigation were to get to this point (that heading gets banned in the us youth game) it ends in one of two places.  First, if the over 18 teams continue to be able to do it, the us winds up being woefully unprepared on the international stage, the dominance of the Uswnt ends and the men will largely go off to Europe at age 12 to train. Second if the 18-21 get banned too or even the pros, the us just gets redlined by fifa. The litigation probably also results in youth gridiron football getting banned in the us.
> 
> we aren’t in the drivers seat on this one. Change, if it comes, has to come from Europe.


Ps one of the drivers in the us is the Latino community. Unless the rule change were imposed on Latin American and European countries I just don’t see the community caving to such a litigation settlement.  They’d form their own league and try and force the insurers to say they won’t insure it.  If the insurers balk they’ll either walk away or more likely go underground Latino league (like during the covid bans). You’ll have Latino soccer and white people soccer.  If it’s not banned in college and the pros, the Latino leagues will have an inherent competitive advantage


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## Mosafie (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> If litigation were to get to this point (that heading gets banned in the us youth game) it ends in one of two places.  First, if the over 18 teams continue to be able to do it, the us winds up being woefully unprepared on the international stage, the dominance of the Uswnt ends and the men will largely go off to Europe at age 12 to train. Second if the 18-21 get banned too or even the pros, the us just gets redlined by fifa. The litigation probably also results in youth gridiron football getting banned in the us.
> 
> we aren’t in the drivers seat on this one. Change, if it comes, has to come from Europe.


 Youth football is already being impacted. The cost of  insurance is getting so high because of lawsuits that some school districts are dropping tackle football. 








						OTL: Football facing growing insurance issue
					

From the NFL to rec leagues, football is facing a stark new threat: An evaporating insurance market that is fundamentally altering the sport's economics, squeezing and even killing off programs faced with higher costs and a scarcity of available coverage.




					www.google.com
				




The big difference between Europe and the US is that most European countries have caps on lawsuit payouts just as they do on medical malpractice claims to keep cost of insurance down because most of it is government funded.


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## dad4 (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> I don’t see any solution to it other than an aerial ball over the last defender will automatically be called offside and to ban the goalkeeper from punting. It would lead to much more stoppages.


a 3 line rule would solve the aerial problem.  You see it in indoor soccer.  There are 3 parallel lines on the field, similar to build-out lines in 7v7.  The rule is you can’t kick the ball so that it crosses all 3 lines in the air.   Similar to icing in hockey.  Doesn’t seem to cause many stoppages.  The goalie just gets good at hitting a spot instead of going for pure distance.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

Mosafie said:


> Youth football is already being impacted. The cost of  insurance is getting so high because of lawsuits that some school districts are dropping tackle football.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The trend though in youth football is consolidation. Not just because of some schools dropping it but because the best athletes are recruited by certain public and private schools and the coaches go to see the athletes at these schools (not necessarily bothering with the lesser ones)

if the rules change outside but not inside the academies (who have deeper pockets and would want to avoid being sanctioned by fifa) you’d have a similar thing happen.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

dad4 said:


> a 3 line rule would solve the aerial problem.  You see it in indoor soccer.  There are 3 parallel lines on the field, similar to build-out lines in 7v7.  The rule is you can’t kick the ball so that it crosses all 3 lines in the air.   Similar to icing in hockey.  Doesn’t seem to cause many stoppages.  The goalie just gets good at hitting a spot instead of going for pure distance.


would only solve the problem of the gk or defenders long balling it.  It’s just as much of a problem if the mids put it over the top to their strikers…it’s still a foot race (and one which has made collisions more likely between the gk and striker).

some fields like the ones at Ferraro, silverlakes or Galway would be too small for the olders so they’ll be fewer full fields

Is it really that rare in hockey?  I haven’t followed since the early 2000s but I recall it having quite a few stoppages per game. Things changed?

and The higher level older boy gks already train punts for accuracy and not just distance. By 13 in the smaller fields most higher level boys can knock it to the opposing keeper (who just picks it up). They are training to put it right behind the defensive line where the opposing gk can’t sweep it and their strikers can beat the defender at the best angle for a foot race.


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## whatithink (Jul 1, 2022)

A few thoughts on this

The studies are on ex players / pros, i.e. who have played the game well into their adult life at a serious and continual level.
As these are older, they played when the balls were different, i.e. heavier etc. which would have a very different impact than current balls
There is a link to positions, which is only natural, as some positions head much more than others
At youth level, imv, boys are far better at heading than girls, i.e. in execution and technique - most girls are pretty clueless from what I've seen and many will avoid it.
My kids play mid, head the ball infrequently and sometimes never in a game. I have zero recollection of any of their coaches ever running a session on heading. I, on the other hand, did teach them correct heading technique in the back yard.

Dementia: Does heading a football cause the disease? - BBC News

Football should consider eliminating heading, dementia expert says | Football | The Guardian


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## dad4 (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> would only solve the problem of the gk or defenders long balling it.  It’s just as much of a problem if the mids put it over the top to their strikers…it’s still a foot race (and one which has made collisions more likely between the gk and striker).
> 
> some fields like the ones at Ferraro, silverlakes or Galway would be too small for the olders so they’ll be fewer full fields
> 
> ...


I was talking about a change that was short of eliminating headers entirely.   Heading a 20 yard chip ball is less force than heading a 70 yard clearance ball.  

It doesn‘t solve everything.  You still have the problem of contested headers and head to head collisions on those midfield chips.


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## Grace T. (Jul 1, 2022)

whatithink said:


> At youth level, imv, boys are far better at heading than girls, i.e. in execution and technique - most girls are pretty clueless from what I've seen and many will avoid it.


Honest question..I suspected this was true but hadn’t seen enough games to come to a firm conclusion…is it true even of the higher level girls?

if so one remedy might just be to make the boys and girls games different (the girls having a lesser game) give the difference in risk profiles.  It happens in lacrosse.


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## whatithink (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Honest question..I suspected this was true but hadn’t seen enough games to come to a firm conclusion…is it true even of the higher level girls?
> 
> if so one remedy might just be to make the boys and girls games different (the girls having a lesser game) give the difference in risk profiles.  It happens in lacrosse.


I'd say that the better girl players have the best technique, same as anything else.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 1, 2022)

dad4 said:


> I was talking about a change that was short of eliminating headers entirely.   Heading a 20 yard chip ball is less force than heading a 70 yard clearance ball.
> 
> It doesn‘t solve everything.  You still have the problem of contested headers and head to head collisions on those midfield chips.


I also think this is directly related to how we are coaching in the US.  Remove boot ball and focus on decision making / possession like the rest of the world, much of this goes away.  Soccer in the US is pretty abysmal even at the highest levels.


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## NorCalDad (Jul 1, 2022)

What I don't get is the 80s were the peak "boot ball" era.  Are we not seeing CTE cases from that time?  It seems CTE is showing up for American football players pretty regularly.  Can't we glean anything from that?  Like I said early, I played CB and headed the ball regularly.  I have no idea if I had proper form, but I certainly never saw stars.


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## Grace T. (Jul 2, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> I also think this is directly related to how we are coaching in the US.  Remove boot ball and focus on decision making / possession like the rest of the world, much of this goes away.  Soccer in the US is pretty abysmal even at the highest levels.


That’s not really true.  I follow Sevilla regularly and you see the ball over the top attempted (not executed) at least 10 times per game. You see it even more in the epl. It doesn’t need to just come from a gk punt but as dad and I discussed From a mid chipping it over.  Yeah Barcelona doesn’t do it as much…they prefer the thru on the ground which is much harder to execute. 

the reason you see it more in the boys youth game is they don’t have three skills to counter it. The first is the drop and counter: 1 player moves to head the ball and 3 of the rest of the back line drop to cover (there’s a YouTube on this skill). Lower level teams struggle to even keep their back 4 unified. But what’s really hard is moving into this position in anticipation and it requires practice…my kid is 13 and I’ve only seen 1 boys team execute this in anticipation to shut down the other side from doing it…the lafc academy team…and even then the other side tries it because they figure the other side might not stop it

the second is the step command to force a striker waiting on a foot race into an offside position. At 13 the keepers on the more advanced side are still yelling “back” and sometimes being ignored by their back line. It requires a high tactical knowledge by both the defensive line and the keeper of where and most importantly when to step, as well as a full ref crew that’s decent to actually see the subtle off side

the final thing you need is a keeper to sweep and not withdraw prematurely to cover goal. It makes the area you can put balls over the top very small. Only about 1/2 the mls keepers my sons age are actually sweeping (it’s one of the last skills to be learned because there’s so much else, hard to practice, and many gk coaches don’t know how to coach it or assume the team coach will cover it). Of those 1/2 many are struggling with withdrawing prematurely to their line to cover goal v the space (keeper traumatic stress syndrome from all the balls banged over their heads when they were younger into goal). 

I dont know if it gets better as they get older because we aren’t there yet. Maybe teams get better at the thru ball on the ground but it’s not as deadly because as I said most keepers my sons age are routinely practicing how to deal with those and all the gk camps cover it. If you want to get there quicker what you really need is academy style practices like they do in Europe: practice 5 days a week for several hours a day.  But that would mean even more headers in practice so they don’t happen on the field. I can tell you from dear cousins experience, Spanish tiered rec has the same problem.


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## Grace T. (Jul 2, 2022)

Btw the mls has new guidance to protect gks on the ground. There are 4 criteria but the most important is contact to the head by an attacker. It came into play in the la galaxy v Minnesota game. The punishment is the goal is disallowed and an automatic red card. The mls thought it was important to adopt for protecting gk from concussions

if the mls thinks it’s important the youth game should adopt it as well. The issue though is this means as a practical matter, without the benefit of var, if the ball is more under a goalkeepers control than the attacker and the gk is on the ground, the attacker can never challenge, including a rebound ball (as was the case in Galaxy v Minnesota) for fear of going down to 10.

soccer like basketball before the adoption of the shot clock is a very broken game (everything from pks to handballs to player safety).  A header fix is likely to just break it even more.


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## dad4 (Jul 2, 2022)

NorCalDad said:


> What I don't get is the 80s were the peak "boot ball" era.  Are we not seeing CTE cases from that time?  It seems CTE is showing up for American football players pretty regularly.  Can't we glean anything from that?  Like I said early, I played CB and headed the ball regularly.  I have no idea if I had proper form, but I certainly never saw stars.


Someone who was 20 in 1985 is only 57 now.  Unless they died young like Scott Vermillion or Junior Seau, they have no CTE diagnosis.

CTE is diagnosed only posthumously, and only if you look for it.  Mostly, we’d be seeing CTE cases from the NASL days, and those guys were almost all foreign players.  

NASL also had slightly different rules.  For a while, you could only be offside in the last 35 yards.  Not sure what that did to header frequency, but it certainly alters the question of where you should position yourself for a goalie punt.


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## espola (Jul 2, 2022)

dad4 said:


> Someone who was 20 in 1985 is only 57 now.  Unless they died young like Scott Vermillion or Junior Seau, they have no CTE diagnosis.
> 
> CTE is diagnosed only posthumously, and only if you look for it.  Mostly, we’d be seeing CTE cases from the NASL days, and those guys were almost all foreign players.
> 
> NASL also had slightly different rules.  For a while, you could only be offside in the last 35 yards.  Not sure what that did to header frequency, but it certainly alters the question of where you should position yourself for a goalie punt.


I liked the 35-yard offside line.  Later on, I found out it was such a good idea that FIFA rejected its use anywhere else in the soccer world.  I also learned about the 10-point standings system from NASL -- it was touted at the time as a way to avoid all those boring 1-0 scores.


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## splat123 (Jul 7, 2022)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/05/bruce-murray-dementia-cte
		


Former Clemson and USMNT player Bruce Murray is 56


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## Grace T. (Oct 19, 2022)

Interesting video by Tifo Football and The Athletic on the impacts of changing the header rule.   Their (albeit speculative...though there have been quite a few test matches in both youngers and adults at this point) conclusions were interesting.  One of the big things to note is that corners will likely become a. much more dangerous, and b. much more worthless.  Worthless because the goalkeeper will have (as the only one that can reach high) much more range and advantage to stop an aerial ball.  Dangerous because the scramble would be for the ball by cleated players on the ground or trying to do bicycles (my own 2 cents noted in parens, but if you ban headers it seems you will likely also need to ban bicycle kicks).  Another impact they note is that football players might get shorter.  Finally, as has been pointed out in this thread, they note the chief impact isn't necessarily in the box but in the midfield, where most headers are played, from incidental control of the ball or from the defensive line having to head back balls over the top....the expected result is that you'll either have to have the defensive line sit way back (something people have traditionally complained makes for boring football) or (much like the U12 game in the US) you get a lot of footrace football.


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## lafalafa (Oct 19, 2022)

Before at certain age say 10-11 the recommendation is to wait but after that is soccer header protocol says different:






						Head Injuries - US Club Soccer Website
					

CONCUSSIONS AND HEAD INJURIES U.S. Soccer announced the U.S. Soccer Concussion Initiative, which provides guidelines that were implemented beginning in January 2016. US Club Soccer clarified the following implementation guidelines as it relates to concussion initiatives and heading for youth...




					usclubsoccer.org
				



.

Yes CTE can be a problem for any athlete in a contact sport so you try to minimize risk.   Using and practicing good technique will reduce the possibility of injury but it's not a zero risk game.


Players in 11-U programs and younger shall not engage in heading, either in practices or in games.
Limited heading in practice for players in 12-U and 13-U programs. More specifically, these players shall be limited to a maximum of 30 minutes of heading training per week, with no more than 15-20 headers per player, per week. There are no heading restrictions in games.
Clubs should be aware of circumstances in which individual consideration is needed. For examples:
A 10 year old playing at 12-U or older should not head the ball at all.
An 11 or 12 year old playing at 14-U or older should abide by the heading restrictions in practice.


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## Grace T. (Oct 19, 2022)

lafalafa said:


> Before at certain age say 10-11 the recommendation is to wait but after that is soccer header protocol says different:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





lafalafa said:


> Before at certain age say 10-11 the recommendation is to wait but after that is soccer header protocol says different:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some random observations of the little ones:

a. the 10-11 thing is an arbitrary number.  My understanding is that it was as a result of a lawsuit settlement
b. one of the chief impact in the games is that you do see a lot of footraces.  Ball over the top and then just have the fast player race it down.  The goalkeepers can't defend 1v1 very well at that age so if you have a decent striker that knows not to shoot it at the keeper it becomes pretty easy.
c. Defensively, as a result a common tactic in the very youngers is that if your team is up 2 goals in a contested game, you just pull back your players to guard the goal (I even saw one team once pull back it's entire squad and just sit them in front of the goal...the game ended in a 1-1 tie because a handball call led to a penalty).  
d. the impact of the ball over the top in the littlest ones is minimized because it's paired with the no punt rule and the GKs/defenders at that age realistically can't bang a ball over the top on goalkicks (you might get a boy that can do it once in a while, but it's not controlled or targeted).


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## lafalafa (Oct 19, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Some random observations of the little ones:
> 
> a. the 10-11 thing is an arbitrary number.  My understanding is that it was as a result of a lawsuit settlement
> b. one of the chief impact in the games is that you do see a lot of footraces.  Ball over the top and then just have the fast player race it down.  The goalkeepers can't defend 1v1 very well at that age so if you have a decent striker that knows not to shoot it at the keeper it becomes pretty easy.
> ...


Yeah not sure how they came up with the age suggestions,  full side or small side seems like it factors in or something?

I remember our family pediatrician suggesting to wait for full on tackle football w/ helmets until age 13 or 14 I can't recall which noting the skull is softer and not full development enough yet until that age.

One of my son's soccer coaches when he was younger was a ex pro that retired early due to a vertigo & concussion problem that keep repeating that he attributed to heading partly. Being a target forward, not heading was not a practical option for him.


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## Zeke (Oct 19, 2022)

Grace T. said:


> Some random observations of the little ones:
> 
> a. the 10-11 thing is an arbitrary number.  My understanding is that it was as a result of a lawsuit settlement
> b. one of the chief impact in the games is that you do see a lot of footraces.  Ball over the top and then just have the fast player race it down.  The goalkeepers can't defend 1v1 very well at that age so if you have a decent striker that knows not to shoot it at the keeper it becomes pretty easy.
> ...


At upper levels, you get kids who can accurately knock the ball a decent distance.

One of the recent tactics in 7v7 girls games is to have your strongest player try to chip the goalie on the kickoff.  I’d say the hit rate is about as good as it is for direct free kicks.


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## Grace T. (Oct 19, 2022)

Zeke said:


> At upper levels, you get kids who can accurately knock the ball a decent distance.
> 
> One of the recent tactics in 7v7 girls games is to have your strongest player try to chip the goalie on the kickoff.  I’d say the hit rate is about as good as it is for direct free kicks.


I've seen it in the boys too...even 11v11 until they get high enough level that they're on a full sized/football field or until 14/15 when the goalkeepers are finally tall enough to stop balls over the head. Then there's the below.  

The one rule I would like to see is make goals/penalties (with the GK able to move on the whistle)/DFKs worth 2 points, an unintentional handball PK/DFK 1, and a banger from about the circle 3.  "Ronaldo for 3......yes!!!!"  If they do implement a no headers rule, I think they would have to seriously look at going to this system with header PK/DFK worth 1.  They'll also be some more stoppages because as we know there are balls to the face and it's hard to make your head "unnaturally bigger" so you'd have to distinguish between an intentional and nonintentional header, as they do in the US youngers game.


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